Challenges Facing the Protestant Church [TGC Podcast Ep. 403 and 404]

All right, we're going to get started All right, we're going to get started here. Welcome everyone. here. Welcome everyone. here. Welcome everyone. Um glad you're here. Hope you're Um glad you're here. Hope you're Um glad you're here. Hope you're enjoying the conference so far. My name enjoying the conference so far. My name enjoying the conference so far. My name is Brett McCracken. I'm a senior editor is Brett McCracken. I'm a senior editor is Brett McCracken. I'm a senior editor at The Gospel Coalition. Um you're here at The Gospel Coalition. Um you're here at The Gospel Coalition. Um you're here for Foundations of Faith Navigating for Foundations of Faith Navigating for Foundations of Faith Navigating Today's Challenges. Um I first of all, I Today's Challenges. Um I first of all, I Today's Challenges. Um I first of all, I want to mention that this is hosted by want to mention that this is hosted by want to mention that this is hosted by Zondervan Reflective. So, thank you Zondervan Reflective. So, thank you Zondervan Reflective. So, thank you Zondervan Reflective for hosting this Zondervan Reflective for hosting this Zondervan Reflective for hosting this wonderful evening. Um we are going to wonderful evening. Um we are going to wonderful evening. Um we are going to talk to three authors of Zondervan talk to three authors of Zondervan talk to three authors of Zondervan Reflective books tonight, which is Reflective books tonight, which is Reflective books tonight, which is exciting. exciting. exciting. We're going to look at challenges facing We're going to look at challenges facing We're going to look at challenges facing Protestantism, the Protestant church. Protestantism, the Protestant church. Protestantism, the Protestant church. How do we navigate that? Kind of How do we navigate that? Kind of How do we navigate that? Kind of different angles to big challenges, new different angles to big challenges, new different angles to big challenges, new challenges that are facing the church, challenges that are facing the church, challenges that are facing the church, um old challenges that are maybe newly um old challenges that are maybe newly um old challenges that are maybe newly aggravated by cultural issues going on. aggravated by cultural issues going on. aggravated by cultural issues going on. Um personally, I've been thinking a lot Um personally, I've been thinking a lot Um personally, I've been thinking a lot about technology as like a big category about technology as like a big category about technology as like a big category of new challenges um facing the church. of new challenges um facing the church. of new challenges um facing the church. Of course, there's also opportunities Of course, there's also opportunities Of course, there's also opportunities that come with technology. Um we were that come with technology. Um we were that come with technology. Um we were celebrating the 20th anniversary of The celebrating the 20th anniversary of The celebrating the 20th anniversary of The Gospel Coalition today. I was thinking Gospel Coalition today. I was thinking Gospel Coalition today. I was thinking like this wouldn't exist. We would like this wouldn't exist. We would like this wouldn't exist. We would literally not be here were it not for literally not be here were it not for literally not be here were it not for the way the internet and that technology the way the internet and that technology the way the internet and that technology brought people together, kind of brought people together, kind of brought people together, kind of like-minded people who were able to form like-minded people who were able to form like-minded people who were able to form this coalition. Uh and so we have this this coalition. Uh and so we have this this coalition. Uh and so we have this new technology to thank for that new technology to thank for that new technology to thank for that opportunity, but at the same time, we opportunity, but at the same time, we opportunity, but at the same time, we all know technology poses massive all know technology poses massive all know technology poses massive challenges. And just as easily as challenges. And just as easily as challenges. And just as easily as technology can bring people together, technology can bring people together, technology can bring people together, form a coalition, we know that

form a coalition, we know that form a coalition, we know that coalitions everywhere are dissolving and coalitions everywhere are dissolving and coalitions everywhere are dissolving and there's fragmentation and online there's fragmentation and online there's fragmentation and online tribalism and all manner of division tribalism and all manner of division tribalism and all manner of division that the internet and social media is that the internet and social media is that the internet and social media is fostering. Um some of us might be fostering. Um some of us might be fostering. Um some of us might be talking about that a little bit. Um I talking about that a little bit. Um I talking about that a little bit. Um I know Jared, you talk about that kind of know Jared, you talk about that kind of know Jared, you talk about that kind of in in your um book. Um so, there are big in in your um book. Um so, there are big in in your um book. Um so, there are big challenges we're facing and we I could challenges we're facing and we I could challenges we're facing and we I could go on and on. It's sobering to think go on and on. It's sobering to think go on and on. It's sobering to think about all that the church in the 21st about all that the church in the 21st about all that the church in the 21st century is facing, but thanks be to God, century is facing, but thanks be to God, century is facing, but thanks be to God, we have godly, wise leaders who are up we have godly, wise leaders who are up we have godly, wise leaders who are up for the challenge of helping us navigate for the challenge of helping us navigate for the challenge of helping us navigate these challenges and thinking well about these challenges and thinking well about these challenges and thinking well about them for the purpose of edifying the them for the purpose of edifying the them for the purpose of edifying the church, um helping the church to um church, um helping the church to um church, um helping the church to um not only be sustained through the not only be sustained through the not only be sustained through the challenges, but to grow stronger through challenges, but to grow stronger through challenges, but to grow stronger through them. And these these three guys are them. And these these three guys are them. And these these three guys are some of those leaders that um God God some of those leaders that um God God some of those leaders that um God God has appointed for such a time as this has appointed for such a time as this has appointed for such a time as this through their wise resources and books. through their wise resources and books. through their wise resources and books. So, um each of them, as I mentioned, has So, um each of them, as I mentioned, has So, um each of them, as I mentioned, has written a book published by Zondervan written a book published by Zondervan written a book published by Zondervan Reflective in the last year, I think, Reflective in the last year, I think, Reflective in the last year, I think, all of them. One of them in the last day all of them. One of them in the last day all of them. One of them in the last day um has been published, so very fresh.

um has been published, so very fresh. um has been published, so very fresh. I'm going to um introduce each of them I'm going to um introduce each of them I'm going to um introduce each of them in a minute, but just want to make in a minute, but just want to make in a minute, but just want to make mention of the fact that the books are mention of the fact that the books are mention of the fact that the books are all going to be available at the back of all going to be available at the back of all going to be available at the back of the room. And so at the end, please, the room. And so at the end, please, the room. And so at the end, please, please, please pick up copies of the please, please pick up copies of the please, please pick up copies of the book, get them signed. These guys will book, get them signed. These guys will book, get them signed. These guys will all be available to sign books, take all be available to sign books, take all be available to sign books, take photographs, chat with you for as long photographs, chat with you for as long photographs, chat with you for as long as you want to, right? Right, guys? as you want to, right? Right, guys? as you want to, right? Right, guys? Well, until the night, if you want to. Well, until the night, if you want to. Well, until the night, if you want to. We'll see. We're all tired. It's been an We'll see. We're all tired. It's been an We'll see. We're all tired. It's been an intense conference, but let me introduce intense conference, but let me introduce intense conference, but let me introduce Let me introduce them in the order that Let me introduce them in the order that Let me introduce them in the order that they're going to speak. Um so, the way they're going to speak. Um so, the way they're going to speak. Um so, the way that tonight is going to work is each of that tonight is going to work is each of that tonight is going to work is each of them will speak and give kind of a TED them will speak and give kind of a TED them will speak and give kind of a TED Talk for like 20 minutes about the topic Talk for like 20 minutes about the topic Talk for like 20 minutes about the topic of their book or whatever else they want of their book or whatever else they want of their book or whatever else they want to share about. After they each present, to share about. After they each present, to share about. After they each present, we will have a conversation as a group we will have a conversation as a group we will have a conversation as a group that I will facilitate and you guys can that I will facilitate and you guys can that I will facilitate and you guys can contribute questions to that. So, be contribute questions to that. So, be contribute questions to that. So, be texting in questions uh and we'll texting in questions uh and we'll texting in questions uh and we'll hopefully get to a fair amount of those hopefully get to a fair amount of those hopefully get to a fair amount of those at the end. Okay, so let me introduce um at the end. Okay, so let me introduce um at the end. Okay, so let me introduce um each of these presenters. So, Jared C. each of these presenters. So, Jared C. each of these presenters. So, Jared C. Wilson, we'll start with you, is an Wilson, we'll start with you, is an Wilson, we'll start with you, is an assistant professor of pastoral ministry assistant professor of pastoral ministry assistant professor of pastoral ministry and an author in residence at Midwestern and an author in residence at Midwestern and an author in residence at Midwestern Seminary. He's a pastor for preaching, a Seminary. He's a pastor for preaching, a Seminary. He's a pastor for preaching, a director of the Pastoral Training Center director of the Pastoral Training Center director of the Pastoral Training Center at Liberty Baptist Church, and author of at Liberty Baptist Church, and author of at Liberty Baptist Church, and author of numerous books, including the one we're numerous books, including the one we're numerous books, including the one we're going to look at today, Lest We Drift: going to look at today, Lest We Drift: going to look at today, Lest We Drift: Five Departure Dangers from the One True Five Departure Dangers from the One True Five Departure Dangers from the One True Gospel.

Gospel. Gospel. The foundation of faith that he is The foundation of faith that he is The foundation of faith that he is looking at in his book is kind of the looking at in his book is kind of the looking at in his book is kind of the somewhat fragile status of the gospel somewhat fragile status of the gospel somewhat fragile status of the gospel centrality movement, which is a very centrality movement, which is a very centrality movement, which is a very germane topic for us here at The Gospel germane topic for us here at The Gospel germane topic for us here at The Gospel Coalition. We're very much a part of Coalition. We're very much a part of Coalition. We're very much a part of that movement and what we should be on that movement and what we should be on that movement and what we should be on guard against. How can we sustain a guard against. How can we sustain a guard against. How can we sustain a centrality on the gospel so that it's centrality on the gospel so that it's centrality on the gospel so that it's not just a fad that ebbs and flows. So, not just a fad that ebbs and flows. So, not just a fad that ebbs and flows. So, that's the foundation of faith you're that's the foundation of faith you're that's the foundation of faith you're exploring. exploring. exploring. Gavin Ortlund serves as president of Gavin Ortlund serves as president of Gavin Ortlund serves as president of Truth Unites and theologian in residence Truth Unites and theologian in residence Truth Unites and theologian in residence at Immanuel Church. He's the author of at Immanuel Church. He's the author of at Immanuel Church. He's the author of numerous books as well, including What numerous books as well, including What numerous books as well, including What It Means to Be Protestant: The Case for It Means to Be Protestant: The Case for It Means to Be Protestant: The Case for an Always Reforming Church, which is an Always Reforming Church, which is an Always Reforming Church, which is what he'll be presenting on. And the what he'll be presenting on. And the what he'll be presenting on. And the foundation of faith Gavin is exploring foundation of faith Gavin is exploring foundation of faith Gavin is exploring is kind of historic Protestantism at a is kind of historic Protestantism at a is kind of historic Protestantism at a time when people are time when people are time when people are uh Protestants are maybe being enamored, uh Protestants are maybe being enamored, uh Protestants are maybe being enamored, enchanted, interested in other enchanted, interested in other enchanted, interested in other traditions, Catholicism, Eastern traditions, Catholicism, Eastern traditions, Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy. How do we reassert what Orthodoxy. How do we reassert what Orthodoxy. How do we reassert what Protestantism is? How do we defend it Protestantism is? How do we defend it Protestantism is? How do we defend it robustly? Um so, we're looking forward robustly? Um so, we're looking forward robustly? Um so, we're looking forward to hearing from you on that, Gavin. And to hearing from you on that, Gavin. And to hearing from you on that, Gavin. And then finally, Brad Edwards is the church then finally, Brad Edwards is the church then finally, Brad Edwards is the church planter of The Table Church in planter of The Table Church in planter of The Table Church in Lafayette, Colorado, where he lives with Lafayette, Colorado, where he lives with Lafayette, Colorado, where he lives with his wife, Hannah, and their two sons.

his wife, Hannah, and their two sons. his wife, Hannah, and their two sons. He's a regular contributor to Mere He's a regular contributor to Mere He's a regular contributor to Mere Orthodoxy and The Gospel Coalition. He Orthodoxy and The Gospel Coalition. He Orthodoxy and The Gospel Coalition. He co-hosts The Post Everything Podcast. co-hosts The Post Everything Podcast. co-hosts The Post Everything Podcast. And he's just published his first book, And he's just published his first book, And he's just published his first book, which came out literally yesterday. It's which came out literally yesterday. It's which came out literally yesterday. It's called The Reason for Church: Why the called The Reason for Church: Why the called The Reason for Church: Why the Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age Body of Christ Still Matters in an Age of Anxiety, Division, and Radical of Anxiety, Division, and Radical of Anxiety, Division, and Radical Individualism. Individualism. Individualism. And the foundation of faith you're And the foundation of faith you're And the foundation of faith you're looking at is really just the local looking at is really just the local looking at is really just the local church and how indispensable the local church and how indispensable the local church and how indispensable the local church is in the life of faith, which is church is in the life of faith, which is church is in the life of faith, which is super timely and super important. So, super timely and super important. So, super timely and super important. So, as I mentioned, we're just going to have as I mentioned, we're just going to have as I mentioned, we're just going to have each of them speak for 20 minutes. Um each of them speak for 20 minutes. Um each of them speak for 20 minutes. Um so, why don't we kick that off? Why so, why don't we kick that off? Why so, why don't we kick that off? Why don't we first just thank all three of don't we first just thank all three of don't we first just thank all three of them for being here and Jared is going them for being here and Jared is going them for being here and Jared is going to kick us off first. Since we are a Since we are a people who are constantly distracted people who are constantly distracted people who are constantly distracted by million different things inside of by million different things inside of by million different things inside of ourselves and outside of ourselves, ourselves and outside of ourselves, ourselves and outside of ourselves, the potential for drifting the potential for drifting the potential for drifting from the truth of the gospel is a from the truth of the gospel is a from the truth of the gospel is a constant danger in our lives and constant danger in our lives and constant danger in our lives and ministries.

ministries. ministries. Every movement, no matter how faithful, Every movement, no matter how faithful, Every movement, no matter how faithful, we still remain vulnerable. we still remain vulnerable. we still remain vulnerable. And we fool ourselves if we think we are And we fool ourselves if we think we are And we fool ourselves if we think we are the first to finally exercise our the first to finally exercise our the first to finally exercise our institutions and organizations of this institutions and organizations of this institutions and organizations of this temptation to drift. temptation to drift. temptation to drift. The shifts are more subtle than we The shifts are more subtle than we The shifts are more subtle than we usually realize, but they have usually realize, but they have usually realize, but they have widespread ramifications. Um in his widespread ramifications. Um in his widespread ramifications. Um in his book, The Cross and Christian Ministry, book, The Cross and Christian Ministry, book, The Cross and Christian Ministry, Don Carson writes this, Don Carson writes this, Don Carson writes this, "I have heard a Mennonite leader assess "I have heard a Mennonite leader assess "I have heard a Mennonite leader assess his own movement in this way. his own movement in this way. his own movement in this way. One generation of Mennonites cherished One generation of Mennonites cherished One generation of Mennonites cherished the gospel and believed that the the gospel and believed that the the gospel and believed that the entailment of the gospel lay in certain entailment of the gospel lay in certain entailment of the gospel lay in certain social and political commitments. social and political commitments. social and political commitments. The next generation assumed the gospel The next generation assumed the gospel The next generation assumed the gospel and emphasized the social and political and emphasized the social and political and emphasized the social and political commitments. commitments. commitments. The present generation identifies itself The present generation identifies itself The present generation identifies itself with the social and political with the social and political with the social and political commitments, commitments, commitments, while the gospel is variously confessed while the gospel is variously confessed while the gospel is variously confessed or disowned. or disowned. or disowned. It no longer lies at the heart of the It no longer lies at the heart of the It no longer lies at the heart of the belief system of some who call belief system of some who call belief system of some who call themselves Mennonites.

themselves Mennonites. themselves Mennonites. Whether or not this is a fair reading of Whether or not this is a fair reading of Whether or not this is a fair reading of the Mennonites, Carson says, it is the Mennonites, Carson says, it is the Mennonites, Carson says, it is certainly a salutary warning for certainly a salutary warning for certainly a salutary warning for evangelicals at large." evangelicals at large." evangelicals at large." And I think it absolutely is. And I think it absolutely is. And I think it absolutely is. Um I have sensed a parallel phenomenon Um I have sensed a parallel phenomenon Um I have sensed a parallel phenomenon in the generational succession of the in the generational succession of the in the generational succession of the quote-unquote gospel-centered movement quote-unquote gospel-centered movement quote-unquote gospel-centered movement as well. as well. as well. With the increased speed of information With the increased speed of information With the increased speed of information transfer, the the full descent of the transfer, the the full descent of the transfer, the the full descent of the internet age, the reality of internet age, the reality of internet age, the reality of globalization, what once might have globalization, what once might have globalization, what once might have taken generations taken generations taken generations can now transpire in the span of just a can now transpire in the span of just a can now transpire in the span of just a few decades. few decades. few decades. And for a great many of us who came of And for a great many of us who came of And for a great many of us who came of age at the height of the age at the height of the age at the height of the seeker-sensitive seeker-sensitive seeker-sensitive church movement, church movement, church movement, initially influenced by and trained in initially influenced by and trained in initially influenced by and trained in ministry to emulate pastors like Rick ministry to emulate pastors like Rick ministry to emulate pastors like Rick Warren and Bill Hybels and Andy Stanley, Warren and Bill Hybels and Andy Stanley, Warren and Bill Hybels and Andy Stanley, the rediscovery of reformed theology the rediscovery of reformed theology the rediscovery of reformed theology provided a canvas upon which to work out provided a canvas upon which to work out provided a canvas upon which to work out our growing angst our growing angst our growing angst with that kind of attractional ministry with that kind of attractional ministry with that kind of attractional ministry paradigm. paradigm. paradigm. In the beginning, younger boomers and In the beginning, younger boomers and In the beginning, younger boomers and older Gen Xers set about cherishing or older Gen Xers set about cherishing or older Gen Xers set about cherishing or at least enjoying the newness of gospel at least enjoying the newness of gospel at least enjoying the newness of gospel centrality, especially in reaction to centrality, especially in reaction to centrality, especially in reaction to what we were rebelling against.

what we were rebelling against. what we were rebelling against. And from this interest arose the now And from this interest arose the now And from this interest arose the now infamous young, restless, and reformed. infamous young, restless, and reformed. infamous young, restless, and reformed. But in just 10 short years, what was new But in just 10 short years, what was new But in just 10 short years, what was new to us had become the established norm to us had become the established norm to us had become the established norm for the next generation. for the next generation. for the next generation. So, many younger Gen Xers and So, many younger Gen Xers and So, many younger Gen Xers and millennials effectively grew up with the millennials effectively grew up with the millennials effectively grew up with the gospel-centered movement as the gospel-centered movement as the gospel-centered movement as the wallpaper wallpaper wallpaper of their church experience. of their church experience. of their church experience. This is the generation of assumption, This is the generation of assumption, This is the generation of assumption, assuming the gospel, for which the assuming the gospel, for which the assuming the gospel, for which the implications of the gospel prove more implications of the gospel prove more implications of the gospel prove more interesting than the gospel itself. interesting than the gospel itself. interesting than the gospel itself. It didn't help that many of the It didn't help that many of the It didn't help that many of the cherishers pastoring and influencing cherishers pastoring and influencing cherishers pastoring and influencing them turned out merely to be dabblers them turned out merely to be dabblers them turned out merely to be dabblers themselves in the gospel-centered themselves in the gospel-centered themselves in the gospel-centered framework. framework. framework. The watchword of the Reformation is The watchword of the Reformation is The watchword of the Reformation is always reforming, which for its always reforming, which for its always reforming, which for its originators meant always returning to originators meant always returning to originators meant always returning to the gospel of grace, the gospel of grace, the gospel of grace, always repenting, always and ever always repenting, always and ever always repenting, always and ever conforming to the centrality of Christ. conforming to the centrality of Christ. conforming to the centrality of Christ. So, in the spirit of Luther's first So, in the spirit of Luther's first So, in the spirit of Luther's first thesis, the whole life of the Christian thesis, the whole life of the Christian thesis, the whole life of the Christian is to be one of constant repenting, is to be one of constant repenting, is to be one of constant repenting, which means constantly turning from sin which means constantly turning from sin which means constantly turning from sin and constantly turning to Christ.

and constantly turning to Christ. and constantly turning to Christ. Gospel centrality, in other words, is Gospel centrality, in other words, is Gospel centrality, in other words, is not something you set to autopilot. not something you set to autopilot. not something you set to autopilot. So, what does it mean to be So, what does it mean to be So, what does it mean to be gospel-centered? gospel-centered? gospel-centered? Could you answer the question if Could you answer the question if Could you answer the question if somebody asked you, "Hey, hey, I know somebody asked you, "Hey, hey, I know somebody asked you, "Hey, hey, I know you're into this gospel-centered thing, you're into this gospel-centered thing, you're into this gospel-centered thing, what exactly does that mean?" what exactly does that mean?" what exactly does that mean?" And if you can answer the question, And if you can answer the question, And if you can answer the question, could the people that you minister to, could the people that you minister to, could the people that you minister to, could they answer the question? On on could they answer the question? On on could they answer the question? On on the first day of my pastoral ministry the first day of my pastoral ministry the first day of my pastoral ministry course at Midwestern Seminary, I always course at Midwestern Seminary, I always course at Midwestern Seminary, I always ask the question, "What does it mean to ask the question, "What does it mean to ask the question, "What does it mean to be gospel-centered?" be gospel-centered?" be gospel-centered?" Hands usually don't go up right away. Hands usually don't go up right away. Hands usually don't go up right away. Eventually, somebody dares to give an Eventually, somebody dares to give an Eventually, somebody dares to give an answer. answer. answer. And usually, he will say something like, And usually, he will say something like, And usually, he will say something like, "Well, it means to center everything on "Well, it means to center everything on "Well, it means to center everything on the gospel." the gospel." the gospel." Well, yeah. Well, yeah. Well, yeah. But that doesn't really answer the But that doesn't really answer the But that doesn't really answer the question, does it? question, does it? question, does it? I find it fascinating how rare it is I find it fascinating how rare it is I find it fascinating how rare it is that folks ostensibly raised in the that folks ostensibly raised in the that folks ostensibly raised in the so-called gospel-centered movement so-called gospel-centered movement so-called gospel-centered movement cannot speak substantively about the cannot speak substantively about the cannot speak substantively about the concept of gospel centrality. concept of gospel centrality. concept of gospel centrality. We've thrown conferences, podcasts, We've thrown conferences, podcasts, We've thrown conferences, podcasts, whole publishing houses at this whole publishing houses at this whole publishing houses at this enterprise.

enterprise. enterprise. And the most common understanding of And the most common understanding of And the most common understanding of what it means to be gospel-centered is what it means to be gospel-centered is what it means to be gospel-centered is that it means we go to certain that it means we go to certain that it means we go to certain conferences, we listen to certain conferences, we listen to certain conferences, we listen to certain podcasts, podcasts, podcasts, and we read certain authors. and we read certain authors. and we read certain authors. There is an alignment, of course, with There is an alignment, of course, with There is an alignment, of course, with reformed theology. reformed theology. reformed theology. But it seems clear, at least to me, that But it seems clear, at least to me, that But it seems clear, at least to me, that gospel centrality became more known as a gospel centrality became more known as a gospel centrality became more known as a cultural phenomenon cultural phenomenon cultural phenomenon and a tribal identifier and a tribal identifier and a tribal identifier than as a coherent theological framework than as a coherent theological framework than as a coherent theological framework for life and ministry. for life and ministry. for life and ministry. So, in in lest we drift, drawing from So, in in lest we drift, drawing from So, in in lest we drift, drawing from Hebrews chapter 2:1, therefore, we must Hebrews chapter 2:1, therefore, we must Hebrews chapter 2:1, therefore, we must pay much closer attention to what we pay much closer attention to what we pay much closer attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away from it. have heard, lest we drift away from it. have heard, lest we drift away from it. I offer a brief tracking of the rise and I offer a brief tracking of the rise and I offer a brief tracking of the rise and decline of the gospel-centered movement, decline of the gospel-centered movement, decline of the gospel-centered movement, and I suggest some handholds, some some and I suggest some handholds, some some and I suggest some handholds, some some substance for gospel centrality. Because substance for gospel centrality. Because substance for gospel centrality. Because movements come and go. movements come and go. movements come and go. And we can be thankful for the blessings And we can be thankful for the blessings And we can be thankful for the blessings of them. We can be wary at the same time of them. We can be wary at the same time of them. We can be wary at the same time about the downsides of them. But a about the downsides of them. But a about the downsides of them. But a significant antidote to the kind of significant antidote to the kind of significant antidote to the kind of gospel amnesia gospel amnesia gospel amnesia that the waning of this movement has that the waning of this movement has that the waning of this movement has left in its wake is to constantly left in its wake is to constantly left in its wake is to constantly reestablish our grasp of the good news reestablish our grasp of the good news reestablish our grasp of the good news and its implications. So, what does it and its implications. So, what does it and its implications. So, what does it mean to be gospel-centered? I want to mean to be gospel-centered? I want to mean to be gospel-centered? I want to answer my own question. Here are the answer my own question. Here are the answer my own question. Here are the three principles I give my students so three principles I give my students so three principles I give my students so that when they're in ministry and that when they're in ministry and that when they're in ministry and somebody says to them, "Hey, pastor, it somebody says to them, "Hey, pastor, it somebody says to them, "Hey, pastor, it says on our website we're a says on our website we're a says on our website we're a gospel-centered church. What does that gospel-centered church. What does that gospel-centered church. What does that mean?"

mean?" mean?" They know what to say. They know what to say. They know what to say. So, it means first of all, that we So, it means first of all, that we So, it means first of all, that we believe the whole Bible is about Jesus. believe the whole Bible is about Jesus. believe the whole Bible is about Jesus. The whole Bible is about Jesus. And The whole Bible is about Jesus. And The whole Bible is about Jesus. And this, of course, is the work of biblical this, of course, is the work of biblical this, of course, is the work of biblical theology, seeing the story of Christ as theology, seeing the story of Christ as theology, seeing the story of Christ as the through-line of the entirety of the the through-line of the entirety of the the through-line of the entirety of the biblical canon. That the whole Bible biblical canon. That the whole Bible biblical canon. That the whole Bible anticipates, explicates, or culminates anticipates, explicates, or culminates anticipates, explicates, or culminates in Jesus and his gospel. in Jesus and his gospel. in Jesus and his gospel. Um secondly, that people change by Um secondly, that people change by Um secondly, that people change by grace, not law. grace, not law. grace, not law. Now, this is still, Now, this is still, Now, this is still, even, you know, 20 years into this even, you know, 20 years into this even, you know, 20 years into this recovery movement, so to speak, um it's recovery movement, so to speak, um it's recovery movement, so to speak, um it's still, I think, the most controversial still, I think, the most controversial still, I think, the most controversial of these principles. That the whole of these principles. That the whole of these principles. That the whole Bible's about Jesus is is less Bible's about Jesus is is less Bible's about Jesus is is less controversial today than it was when I controversial today than it was when I controversial today than it was when I first encountered that idea. For some of first encountered that idea. For some of first encountered that idea. For some of you, it's like, "Well, who else would it you, it's like, "Well, who else would it you, it's like, "Well, who else would it be about?" But um you should you should be about?" But um you should you should be about?" But um you should you should thank God um that you have that thank God um that you have that thank God um that you have that assumption. assumption. assumption. Because the churches I grew up in, the Because the churches I grew up in, the Because the churches I grew up in, the the New Testament was pretty much about the New Testament was pretty much about the New Testament was pretty much about Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Uh but the Old Testament was not. And Uh but the Old Testament was not. And Uh but the Old Testament was not. And really, the main thrust of the Bible was really, the main thrust of the Bible was really, the main thrust of the Bible was um to be good, because God is good. So, um to be good, because God is good. So, um to be good, because God is good. So, to hear that um you know, more and more to hear that um you know, more and more to hear that um you know, more and more the uh the default status of a lot of my the uh the default status of a lot of my the uh the default status of a lot of my students, in fact, um is to come out of students, in fact, um is to come out of students, in fact, um is to come out of churches where um there's at least an churches where um there's at least an churches where um there's at least an attempt at seeing uh a Christ-centered attempt at seeing uh a Christ-centered attempt at seeing uh a Christ-centered reading of the scriptures. But this reading of the scriptures. But this reading of the scriptures. But this point, this principle, the second one, point, this principle, the second one, point, this principle, the second one, is still very, very controversial and is still very, very controversial and is still very, very controversial and where I where I personally experience where I where I personally experience where I where I personally experience the most pushback. That people change by the most pushback. That people change by the most pushback. That people change by grace, not by law. So, from conversion

grace, not by law. So, from conversion grace, not by law. So, from conversion onward, onward, onward, the idea that the gospel itself, the the idea that the gospel itself, the the idea that the gospel itself, the finished work of Christ, is the power finished work of Christ, is the power finished work of Christ, is the power for the Christian life. for the Christian life. for the Christian life. That our sanctification is empowered by That our sanctification is empowered by That our sanctification is empowered by the gospel in the same way that our the gospel in the same way that our the gospel in the same way that our justification is grounded in the gospel. justification is grounded in the gospel. justification is grounded in the gospel. 1 Corinthians chapter 15:2, Paul says 1 Corinthians chapter 15:2, Paul says 1 Corinthians chapter 15:2, Paul says it's this gospel it's this gospel it's this gospel by which you are being saved. by which you are being saved. by which you are being saved. In 2 Corinthians chapter 3, Paul gives In 2 Corinthians chapter 3, Paul gives In 2 Corinthians chapter 3, Paul gives us really so the contrast, the dynamic us really so the contrast, the dynamic us really so the contrast, the dynamic of law and gospel. of law and gospel. of law and gospel. And in verse 18 of 2 Corinthians chapter And in verse 18 of 2 Corinthians chapter And in verse 18 of 2 Corinthians chapter 3, he answers the question, "How do 3, he answers the question, "How do 3, he answers the question, "How do people change?" people change?" people change?" How is it that people change? He says How is it that people change? He says How is it that people change? He says that we are being transformed from one that we are being transformed from one that we are being transformed from one degree of glory into the next, into the degree of glory into the next, into the degree of glory into the next, into the same likeness of Christ. How does that same likeness of Christ. How does that same likeness of Christ. How does that happen? He says it's by beholding the happen? He says it's by beholding the happen? He says it's by beholding the glory of Christ that this happens. glory of Christ that this happens. glory of Christ that this happens. So, it's controversial. People change by So, it's controversial. People change by So, it's controversial. People change by grace, not by law, at least at the heart grace, not by law, at least at the heart grace, not by law, at least at the heart level. I mean, you can manage, you know, level. I mean, you can manage, you know, level. I mean, you can manage, you know, behavior by law. behavior by law. behavior by law. Um you know, you can work the law well Um you know, you can work the law well Um you know, you can work the law well enough to get people to change their enough to get people to change their enough to get people to change their actions. But at the heart level, at the actions. But at the heart level, at the actions. But at the heart level, at the at the seat of affections, at the seat at the seat of affections, at the seat at the seat of affections, at the seat of worship, only the good news of Jesus of worship, only the good news of Jesus of worship, only the good news of Jesus can change that.

can change that. can change that. It's controversial because our flesh It's controversial because our flesh It's controversial because our flesh still yearns for law. still yearns for law. still yearns for law. And then third principle, our ultimate And then third principle, our ultimate And then third principle, our ultimate validation is not found in our validation is not found in our validation is not found in our performance, but in Christ's performance performance, but in Christ's performance performance, but in Christ's performance on our behalf. on our behalf. on our behalf. Our ultimate validation is not found in Our ultimate validation is not found in Our ultimate validation is not found in our performance, but in Christ's our performance, but in Christ's our performance, but in Christ's performance on our behalf. I use the performance on our behalf. I use the performance on our behalf. I use the word validation there. You could very word validation there. You could very word validation there. You could very easily substitute the word easily substitute the word easily substitute the word justification, because that's what it justification, because that's what it justification, because that's what it is. But I use the word validation bec- is. But I use the word validation bec- is. But I use the word validation bec- because I think most of us because I think most of us because I think most of us intellectually intellectually intellectually um acknowledge and and understand that um acknowledge and and understand that um acknowledge and and understand that our our justification, the legal our our justification, the legal our our justification, the legal declaration of our status before God, declaration of our status before God, declaration of our status before God, our standing before the holy God, is our standing before the holy God, is our standing before the holy God, is based on Christ's work on our behalf. based on Christ's work on our behalf. based on Christ's work on our behalf. But on a daily basis, But on a daily basis, But on a daily basis, your your sense of your your sense of your your sense of Am I square with God? Am I square with God? Am I square with God? What does God think about me? What does God think about me? What does God think about me? How does God feel about me? How does God feel about me? How does God feel about me? To understand that, to press To understand that, to press To understand that, to press justification into every corner of the justification into every corner of the justification into every corner of the room, is to see that your ongoing room, is to see that your ongoing room, is to see that your ongoing validation is not based on what you can validation is not based on what you can validation is not based on what you can do for God, do for God, do for God, but in what God in Christ has done for but in what God in Christ has done for but in what God in Christ has done for you.

you. you. In 1 Corinthians chapter 15:1, Paul says In 1 Corinthians chapter 15:1, Paul says In 1 Corinthians chapter 15:1, Paul says this gospel is not just a thing you this gospel is not just a thing you this gospel is not just a thing you received, past tense. It's not just a received, past tense. It's not just a received, past tense. It's not just a thing that you are being saved by, but thing that you are being saved by, but thing that you are being saved by, but it's also the thing in which you stand. it's also the thing in which you stand. it's also the thing in which you stand. So, on a daily basis, the imputation of So, on a daily basis, the imputation of So, on a daily basis, the imputation of Christ's righteousness is your status. Christ's righteousness is your status. Christ's righteousness is your status. This means for us, as believers, when we This means for us, as believers, when we This means for us, as believers, when we wake up in the morning, wake up in the morning, wake up in the morning, God is not standing over us thinking, God is not standing over us thinking, God is not standing over us thinking, "All right, let's see what you got. "All right, let's see what you got. "All right, let's see what you got. Impress me." Impress me." Impress me." And no matter how the day's gone, at the And no matter how the day's gone, at the And no matter how the day's gone, at the end of the day, when you lay your head end of the day, when you lay your head end of the day, when you lay your head on that pillow at night, and I mean, we on that pillow at night, and I mean, we on that pillow at night, and I mean, we we blow it in so many ways, we blow it in so many ways, we blow it in so many ways, he's not saying, believe it or not, and he's not saying, believe it or not, and he's not saying, believe it or not, and I think you should believe it, he's not I think you should believe it, he's not I think you should believe it, he's not saying, saying, saying, "I thought you were better than that." You know, we don't surprise God with how You know, we don't surprise God with how we are. we are. we are. And we wake up into his favor because of And we wake up into his favor because of And we wake up into his favor because of Christ. Christ. Christ. And we go to sleep at night into his And we go to sleep at night into his And we go to sleep at night into his favor because of Christ. The the favor because of Christ. The the favor because of Christ. The the application for life and ministry is application for life and ministry is application for life and ministry is huge. It It It means that we're not huge. It It It means that we're not huge. It It It means that we're not defined and we don't need to be ruled by defined and we don't need to be ruled by defined and we don't need to be ruled by how things are going. If you're in how things are going. If you're in how things are going. If you're in church leadership, if you're in church leadership, if you're in church leadership, if you're in ministry, um right, it's so easy to be ministry, um right, it's so easy to be ministry, um right, it's so easy to be ruled, to be uh you know, have your ruled, to be uh you know, have your ruled, to be uh you know, have your emotions steered by how ministry's emotions steered by how ministry's emotions steered by how ministry's going. Even if things are going really going. Even if things are going really going. Even if things are going really well.

well. well. But to be settled in gospel centrality But to be settled in gospel centrality But to be settled in gospel centrality means I I can be happy when happy things means I I can be happy when happy things means I I can be happy when happy things happen and sad when sad things happen, happen and sad when sad things happen, happen and sad when sad things happen, but I don't need to be ruled, steered. I but I don't need to be ruled, steered. I but I don't need to be ruled, steered. I don't need to have my sense of okayness don't need to have my sense of okayness don't need to have my sense of okayness with God with God with God be based on how things are going, how be based on how things are going, how be based on how things are going, how the ministry is going. So, it's with the ministry is going. So, it's with the ministry is going. So, it's with these three principles that I aim to these three principles that I aim to these three principles that I aim to help readers of of my book understand help readers of of my book understand help readers of of my book understand and navigate what I call five departure and navigate what I call five departure and navigate what I call five departure dangers, threats to gospel centrality. dangers, threats to gospel centrality. dangers, threats to gospel centrality. And the five departure dangers that I And the five departure dangers that I And the five departure dangers that I identify in for in lest we drift are are identify in for in lest we drift are are identify in for in lest we drift are are these: a victimhood mentality, these: a victimhood mentality, these: a victimhood mentality, superficial faith, superficial faith, superficial faith, attractional pragmatism, which even attractional pragmatism, which even attractional pragmatism, which even though the secret church doesn't seem to though the secret church doesn't seem to though the secret church doesn't seem to be a dominant sort of influential mode be a dominant sort of influential mode be a dominant sort of influential mode anymore, really is is is dominant in anymore, really is is is dominant in anymore, really is is is dominant in sort of 31 flavors now. The attractional sort of 31 flavors now. The attractional sort of 31 flavors now. The attractional thing is actually more more widespread thing is actually more more widespread thing is actually more more widespread and more variegated than it used to be and more variegated than it used to be and more variegated than it used to be in the kind of secret church days. in the kind of secret church days. in the kind of secret church days. Um fourthly, a cultural legalism. Um fourthly, a cultural legalism. Um fourthly, a cultural legalism. And then fifthly, spiritual dryness. And then fifthly, spiritual dryness. And then fifthly, spiritual dryness. Spiritual dryness. And so, if you don't Spiritual dryness. And so, if you don't Spiritual dryness. And so, if you don't mind, I'd like to finish my time here mind, I'd like to finish my time here mind, I'd like to finish my time here speaking a bit to that last danger, speaking a bit to that last danger, speaking a bit to that last danger, spiritual dryness.

spiritual dryness. spiritual dryness. Because I think maybe it's the Because I think maybe it's the Because I think maybe it's the through-line for the other dangers. So, through-line for the other dangers. So, through-line for the other dangers. So, as I'm helping guys in their preaching as I'm helping guys in their preaching as I'm helping guys in their preaching and teaching, and teaching, and teaching, guys who are convinced about the guys who are convinced about the guys who are convinced about the gospel-centered framework, gospel-centered framework, gospel-centered framework, right? I don't have to convince them to right? I don't have to convince them to right? I don't have to convince them to be gospel-centered. They still struggle be gospel-centered. They still struggle be gospel-centered. They still struggle sometimes with the application of it. sometimes with the application of it. sometimes with the application of it. And the number one question I get, the And the number one question I get, the And the number one question I get, the top question that I get in relation to top question that I get in relation to top question that I get in relation to preaching, is this: preaching, is this: preaching, is this: "How do I preach Jesus every week "How do I preach Jesus every week "How do I preach Jesus every week without it sounding one note?" without it sounding one note?" without it sounding one note?" Like it just sounds the same Like it just sounds the same Like it just sounds the same every week. every week. every week. And I always want to say, and in in And I always want to say, and in in And I always want to say, and in in a lot of times, I find a way to say, a lot of times, I find a way to say, a lot of times, I find a way to say, perhaps more gently than this, but I perhaps more gently than this, but I perhaps more gently than this, but I always want to say, always want to say, always want to say, "Is Jesus one note to you?" Because if you are not personally bowled Because if you are not personally bowled over by the gospel, you will always over by the gospel, you will always over by the gospel, you will always struggle to see how the gospel enlivens struggle to see how the gospel enlivens struggle to see how the gospel enlivens and enhances and empowers your and enhances and empowers your and enhances and empowers your preaching. preaching. preaching. Sometimes, it's not that we lack the Sometimes, it's not that we lack the Sometimes, it's not that we lack the know-how. know-how. know-how. It's that we lack personal communion It's that we lack personal communion It's that we lack personal communion with Jesus. with Jesus. with Jesus. So, I don't mean that So, I don't mean that So, I don't mean that non-gospel-centered preachers, or those non-gospel-centered preachers, or those non-gospel-centered preachers, or those who struggle with it, aren't Christians, who struggle with it, aren't Christians, who struggle with it, aren't Christians, or that their faith is in jeopardy. I or that their faith is in jeopardy. I or that their faith is in jeopardy. I just suspect that many who lack the just suspect that many who lack the just suspect that many who lack the aroma of Christ in their preaching aroma of Christ in their preaching aroma of Christ in their preaching actually lack the aroma of Christ in actually lack the aroma of Christ in actually lack the aroma of Christ in their spiritual lives.

their spiritual lives. their spiritual lives. They have probably gotten so accustomed They have probably gotten so accustomed They have probably gotten so accustomed to the routine of ministry that the to the routine of ministry that the to the routine of ministry that the scriptures and the Christ within them scriptures and the Christ within them scriptures and the Christ within them have become more a matter of feeding have become more a matter of feeding have become more a matter of feeding others rather than feeding oneself. others rather than feeding oneself. others rather than feeding oneself. And the Bible has become something dealt And the Bible has become something dealt And the Bible has become something dealt out rather than first dwelled in. out rather than first dwelled in. out rather than first dwelled in. Um in the 2007 Gospel Coalition Um in the 2007 Gospel Coalition Um in the 2007 Gospel Coalition conference, Tim Keller gave the seminal conference, Tim Keller gave the seminal conference, Tim Keller gave the seminal talk, "What Is Gospel-Centered talk, "What Is Gospel-Centered talk, "What Is Gospel-Centered Ministry?" Which, if you've not heard, I Ministry?" Which, if you've not heard, I Ministry?" Which, if you've not heard, I highly recommend. highly recommend. highly recommend. That message contains the now-classic That message contains the now-classic That message contains the now-classic "Jesus is the true and better" "Jesus is the true and better" "Jesus is the true and better" application that's pretty much become uh application that's pretty much become uh application that's pretty much become uh ubiquitous in the movement, right? At ubiquitous in the movement, right? At ubiquitous in the movement, right? At the end of the little homiletical run he the end of the little homiletical run he the end of the little homiletical run he does there, and he does this in his book does there, and he does this in his book does there, and he does this in his book in his preaching book as well, uh where in his preaching book as well, uh where in his preaching book as well, uh where he says Jesus is the true and better he says Jesus is the true and better he says Jesus is the true and better Adam, and just kind of goes through the Adam, and just kind of goes through the Adam, and just kind of goes through the list. At the end of that, he says list. At the end of that, he says list. At the end of that, he says something that when I first heard it, something that when I first heard it, something that when I first heard it, just stuck with me, even though I didn't just stuck with me, even though I didn't just stuck with me, even though I didn't quite understand it. He said, "That's quite understand it. He said, "That's quite understand it. He said, "That's not typology. not typology. not typology. That's an instinct." That's an instinct." That's an instinct." And it's confusing because it is And it's confusing because it is And it's confusing because it is typology, what he was doing. typology, what he was doing. typology, what he was doing. He was doing typology, but I think what He was doing typology, but I think what He was doing typology, but I think what he meant was that Christ-centered he meant was that Christ-centered he meant was that Christ-centered preachers almost can't help but preach preachers almost can't help but preach preachers almost can't help but preach Christ.

Christ. Christ. They would have to make themselves avoid They would have to make themselves avoid They would have to make themselves avoid preaching the gospel. preaching the gospel. preaching the gospel. If anything, the temptation is to jump If anything, the temptation is to jump If anything, the temptation is to jump over the immediate exposition of the over the immediate exposition of the over the immediate exposition of the text to, as Spurgeon famously said, text to, as Spurgeon famously said, text to, as Spurgeon famously said, "Make a road to Christ." "Make a road to Christ." "Make a road to Christ." So, in other words, if we are regularly So, in other words, if we are regularly So, in other words, if we are regularly communing with Christ, reading the communing with Christ, reading the communing with Christ, reading the scriptures in a devotional sense, in a scriptures in a devotional sense, in a scriptures in a devotional sense, in a daily and disciplined way, the instinct daily and disciplined way, the instinct daily and disciplined way, the instinct is there to preach Christ. is there to preach Christ. is there to preach Christ. It's a spiritual impulse that It's a spiritual impulse that It's a spiritual impulse that supernaturally finds its way into our supernaturally finds its way into our supernaturally finds its way into our sermon preparation. sermon preparation. sermon preparation. How could a gospel-centered preacher not How could a gospel-centered preacher not How could a gospel-centered preacher not preach a gospel-centered sermon? preach a gospel-centered sermon? preach a gospel-centered sermon? So, it's just a theory, but perhaps the So, it's just a theory, but perhaps the So, it's just a theory, but perhaps the reason so many preachers who read all of reason so many preachers who read all of reason so many preachers who read all of the gospel-y books and all the gospel-y the gospel-y books and all the gospel-y the gospel-y books and all the gospel-y blogs and listen to all the gospel-y blogs and listen to all the gospel-y blogs and listen to all the gospel-y podcasts and follow all the gospel-y podcasts and follow all the gospel-y podcasts and follow all the gospel-y Twitter accounts still struggle to Twitter accounts still struggle to Twitter accounts still struggle to preach gospel-y sermons is because they preach gospel-y sermons is because they preach gospel-y sermons is because they are not in regular communion with the are not in regular communion with the are not in regular communion with the Christ who is at the center. Christ who is at the center. Christ who is at the center. Their sermons don't carry what Spurgeon Their sermons don't carry what Spurgeon Their sermons don't carry what Spurgeon calls a savor of Christ. calls a savor of Christ. calls a savor of Christ. Because their devotional life does not Because their devotional life does not Because their devotional life does not carry a savor of Christ.

carry a savor of Christ. carry a savor of Christ. If we're not regularly communing with If we're not regularly communing with If we're not regularly communing with Jesus, investing in our friendship with Jesus, investing in our friendship with Jesus, investing in our friendship with Jesus, nurturing our intimacy with him Jesus, nurturing our intimacy with him Jesus, nurturing our intimacy with him personally and spiritually, we will personally and spiritually, we will personally and spiritually, we will stifle the spiritual instinct to preach stifle the spiritual instinct to preach stifle the spiritual instinct to preach Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. In Christopher Ash's little book on In Christopher Ash's little book on In Christopher Ash's little book on preaching, The Priority of Preaching, he preaching, The Priority of Preaching, he preaching, The Priority of Preaching, he tells the story of W. E. Sangster, who tells the story of W. E. Sangster, who tells the story of W. E. Sangster, who was interviewing a candidate for the was interviewing a candidate for the was interviewing a candidate for the ministry, ministry, ministry, and the nervous young man explained that and the nervous young man explained that and the nervous young man explained that he was he was he was quite shy and not the sort of person quite shy and not the sort of person quite shy and not the sort of person ever to set the River Thames on fire. ever to set the River Thames on fire. ever to set the River Thames on fire. "Well, my dear young brother," responded "Well, my dear young brother," responded "Well, my dear young brother," responded Sangster, "I'm not interested to know if Sangster, "I'm not interested to know if Sangster, "I'm not interested to know if you could set the Thames on fire. What I you could set the Thames on fire. What I you could set the Thames on fire. What I want to know is this, if I picked you up want to know is this, if I picked you up want to know is this, if I picked you up by the scruff of your neck and threw you by the scruff of your neck and threw you by the scruff of your neck and threw you into the River Thames, would it sizzle?" into the River Thames, would it sizzle?" into the River Thames, would it sizzle?" So, never mind his eloquence, was he So, never mind his eloquence, was he So, never mind his eloquence, was he himself on fire? himself on fire? himself on fire? Was he hot? Was he hot? Was he hot? We are often more worried about bringing We are often more worried about bringing We are often more worried about bringing the heat than we are about being the heat than we are about being the heat than we are about being spiritually hot. spiritually hot. spiritually hot. So, underneath a pastor's sermon So, underneath a pastor's sermon So, underneath a pastor's sermon preparation and eventual sermon delivery preparation and eventual sermon delivery preparation and eventual sermon delivery run a current of instincts and impulses, run a current of instincts and impulses, run a current of instincts and impulses, and this current can run in the and this current can run in the and this current can run in the direction of Christ, or it can run in direction of Christ, or it can run in direction of Christ, or it can run in the direction of a thousand other things the direction of a thousand other things the direction of a thousand other things that the pastor or his congregation that the pastor or his congregation that the pastor or his congregation finds interesting.

finds interesting. finds interesting. Today, the homiletical instincts of Today, the homiletical instincts of Today, the homiletical instincts of evangelical preachers run the gamut from evangelical preachers run the gamut from evangelical preachers run the gamut from political hobby horses and cultural political hobby horses and cultural political hobby horses and cultural warriors to historical lectures and warriors to historical lectures and warriors to historical lectures and theological bromides, and perhaps the theological bromides, and perhaps the theological bromides, and perhaps the most widespread passion of evangelical most widespread passion of evangelical most widespread passion of evangelical preachers is the law, whether of preachers is the law, whether of preachers is the law, whether of positive moralism, like it's found in positive moralism, like it's found in positive moralism, like it's found in the attractional church, seven steps to the attractional church, seven steps to the attractional church, seven steps to be a better whatever, be a better whatever, be a better whatever, or expositional imperatives, or expositional imperatives, or expositional imperatives, as in the self-consciously Protestant as in the self-consciously Protestant as in the self-consciously Protestant church. church. church. But you can also find in many But you can also find in many But you can also find in many independent churches a kind of preaching independent churches a kind of preaching independent churches a kind of preaching that just amounts to thinly veiled that just amounts to thinly veiled that just amounts to thinly veiled gossip, gossip, gossip, rants about other churches, other rants about other churches, other rants about other churches, other ministries, or even the sinners in that ministries, or even the sinners in that ministries, or even the sinners in that very congregation. very congregation. very congregation. It just so happens that these are also It just so happens that these are also It just so happens that these are also many congregations' favorite genres of many congregations' favorite genres of many congregations' favorite genres of sermons, sermons, sermons, and they won't give you any trouble if and they won't give you any trouble if and they won't give you any trouble if you preach them. you preach them. you preach them. Is it any wonder that so many Is it any wonder that so many Is it any wonder that so many evangelical preachers find the routine evangelical preachers find the routine evangelical preachers find the routine of gospel centrality shallow, or of gospel centrality shallow, or of gospel centrality shallow, or mundane, or one-note? mundane, or one-note? mundane, or one-note? It is not nearly as entertaining as the It is not nearly as entertaining as the It is not nearly as entertaining as the alternatives. It does not hold much alternatives. It does not hold much alternatives. It does not hold much promise of keeping the customers promise of keeping the customers promise of keeping the customers satisfied.

satisfied. satisfied. But for the man whose soul has been But for the man whose soul has been But for the man whose soul has been turned inside out by the grace of God, turned inside out by the grace of God, turned inside out by the grace of God, none of this really matters. none of this really matters. none of this really matters. In his right mind, he is not interested In his right mind, he is not interested In his right mind, he is not interested in his approval rating. in his approval rating. in his approval rating. Focused on the glory of Jesus, he Focused on the glory of Jesus, he Focused on the glory of Jesus, he actually cannot think of a more actually cannot think of a more actually cannot think of a more beautiful, more glorious, more beautiful, more glorious, more beautiful, more glorious, more captivating subject. captivating subject. captivating subject. Nor can he think of a more versatile, Nor can he think of a more versatile, Nor can he think of a more versatile, multifaceted, eternally interesting multifaceted, eternally interesting multifaceted, eternally interesting subject. subject. subject. I find it strange that so few ministry I find it strange that so few ministry I find it strange that so few ministry leaders in the gospel-centered tribe leaders in the gospel-centered tribe leaders in the gospel-centered tribe even speak about Jesus even speak about Jesus even speak about Jesus in personal terms. in personal terms. in personal terms. Jesus is indeed the King of kings and Jesus is indeed the King of kings and Jesus is indeed the King of kings and the Lord of lords. He is the risen Son the Lord of lords. He is the risen Son the Lord of lords. He is the risen Son and the imprint of the very nature of and the imprint of the very nature of and the imprint of the very nature of God, but he is also our brother God, but he is also our brother God, but he is also our brother and our friend and our friend and our friend and our advocate and our advocate and our advocate and our shepherd. and our shepherd. and our shepherd. Because of his gospel, we are privileged Because of his gospel, we are privileged Because of his gospel, we are privileged to become partakers of his divine to become partakers of his divine to become partakers of his divine nature. nature. nature. So, shouldn't our communication about So, shouldn't our communication about So, shouldn't our communication about Jesus regularly indicate this kind of Jesus regularly indicate this kind of Jesus regularly indicate this kind of spiritual intimacy? spiritual intimacy? spiritual intimacy? In his Institutes, John Calvin warns In his Institutes, John Calvin warns In his Institutes, John Calvin warns against an interest in things of the against an interest in things of the against an interest in things of the gospel, gospel, gospel, an interest that is purely intellectual an interest that is purely intellectual an interest that is purely intellectual or theoretical, or theoretical, or theoretical, and he calls such exercises frigid and he calls such exercises frigid and he calls such exercises frigid speculations.

speculations. speculations. The truth is that no amount of religious The truth is that no amount of religious The truth is that no amount of religious interest, ministry effort, or other interest, ministry effort, or other interest, ministry effort, or other kinds of spiritual enthusiasm can serve kinds of spiritual enthusiasm can serve kinds of spiritual enthusiasm can serve as a substitute for the affectionate as a substitute for the affectionate as a substitute for the affectionate knowledge that comes from intimacy with knowledge that comes from intimacy with knowledge that comes from intimacy with Jesus. Jesus. Jesus. Even a rigorous interest in God's law Even a rigorous interest in God's law Even a rigorous interest in God's law cannot replace communing with God in cannot replace communing with God in cannot replace communing with God in Christ. Christ. Christ. To love Jesus is to obey his To love Jesus is to obey his To love Jesus is to obey his commandments, yes, but it is possible to commandments, yes, but it is possible to commandments, yes, but it is possible to obey his commandments without loving obey his commandments without loving obey his commandments without loving him. him. him. Religiosity cannot ultimately keep us Religiosity cannot ultimately keep us Religiosity cannot ultimately keep us from apostasy. Being gospel-centered on from apostasy. Being gospel-centered on from apostasy. Being gospel-centered on paper cannot ultimately keep us from paper cannot ultimately keep us from paper cannot ultimately keep us from apostasy. If anything, it might expedite apostasy. If anything, it might expedite apostasy. If anything, it might expedite it as we find it harder and harder to it as we find it harder and harder to it as we find it harder and harder to keep up the religious efforts without a keep up the religious efforts without a keep up the religious efforts without a heart of renewal. heart of renewal. heart of renewal. The machinery of spirituality cannot The machinery of spirituality cannot The machinery of spirituality cannot move for long without the oil of move for long without the oil of move for long without the oil of spiritual vitality. spiritual vitality. spiritual vitality. And this spiritual vitality can only And this spiritual vitality can only And this spiritual vitality can only come from friendship with Jesus. come from friendship with Jesus. come from friendship with Jesus. So, if we'll see true revival of So, if we'll see true revival of So, if we'll see true revival of religion in our land, it will not come religion in our land, it will not come religion in our land, it will not come through generational transitions, it through generational transitions, it through generational transitions, it will not come through cultural will not come through cultural will not come through cultural interests, it will not come through interests, it will not come through interests, it will not come through political pressure, it will not come political pressure, it will not come political pressure, it will not come through vibe shifts.

through vibe shifts. through vibe shifts. It can only come through a deep It can only come through a deep It can only come through a deep repentance from ourselves and a deep repentance from ourselves and a deep repentance from ourselves and a deep personal and passionate devotion to personal and passionate devotion to personal and passionate devotion to Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Jesus Christ. Thank you. Well, it's wonderful to be with you all Well, it's wonderful to be with you all and for me to learn from Jared and Brad and for me to learn from Jared and Brad and for me to learn from Jared and Brad as well, and thanks to everyone at as well, and thanks to everyone at as well, and thanks to everyone at Zondervan Reflective for helping set Zondervan Reflective for helping set Zondervan Reflective for helping set this up. I hope that you'll leave here this up. I hope that you'll leave here this up. I hope that you'll leave here feeling encouraged, especially those of feeling encouraged, especially those of feeling encouraged, especially those of you who are in ministry. you who are in ministry. you who are in ministry. Uh Jared just mentioned the word Uh Jared just mentioned the word Uh Jared just mentioned the word revival. I hope we will return to that a revival. I hope we will return to that a revival. I hope we will return to that a little later and talk about that more. I little later and talk about that more. I little later and talk about that more. I think that'd be a wonderful point of think that'd be a wonderful point of think that'd be a wonderful point of focus, you a uniting thread between the focus, you a uniting thread between the focus, you a uniting thread between the three of us, something to just rally three of us, something to just rally three of us, something to just rally around and pray for a fresh work of God around and pray for a fresh work of God around and pray for a fresh work of God in our day. That's what I want to give in our day. That's what I want to give in our day. That's what I want to give my life to. my life to. my life to. Um I want to address though one Um I want to address though one Um I want to address though one challenge that I am seeing. challenge that I am seeing. challenge that I am seeing. I tend to think of it as somewhat uh I tend to think of it as somewhat uh I tend to think of it as somewhat uh niche and specific. As I felt the Lord niche and specific. As I felt the Lord niche and specific. As I felt the Lord draw me into ministry facing this draw me into ministry facing this draw me into ministry facing this challenge, I did not expect it to be a challenge, I did not expect it to be a challenge, I did not expect it to be a sort of broad ministry in any way, but I sort of broad ministry in any way, but I sort of broad ministry in any way, but I have to say it's probably been maybe a have to say it's probably been maybe a have to say it's probably been maybe a dozen or a dozen and a half dozen or a dozen and a half dozen or a dozen and a half conversations over the course of this conversations over the course of this conversations over the course of this conference have given me the feeling of, conference have given me the feeling of, conference have given me the feeling of, okay, I'm not the only one who is seeing okay, I'm not the only one who is seeing okay, I'm not the only one who is seeing this. It's possible to exaggerate this, this. It's possible to exaggerate this, this. It's possible to exaggerate this, but it's a reality right now. Uh I'll but it's a reality right now. Uh I'll but it's a reality right now. Uh I'll just throw out a term for it. I've just throw out a term for it. I've just throw out a term for it. I've invented the the the term for it. I

invented the the the term for it. I invented the the the term for it. I don't know what else to call it of don't know what else to call it of don't know what else to call it of ecclesial anxiety. So, the word ecclesial anxiety. So, the word ecclesial anxiety. So, the word ecclesial having to do with the church. ecclesial having to do with the church. ecclesial having to do with the church. And I'm especially thinking of And I'm especially thinking of And I'm especially thinking of young men especially, especially Gen Z, young men especially, especially Gen Z, young men especially, especially Gen Z, though not limited to that, who are though not limited to that, who are though not limited to that, who are struggling with their identity in the struggling with their identity in the struggling with their identity in the broader church. broader church. broader church. And in many cases are leaving And in many cases are leaving And in many cases are leaving Protestantism altogether for a different Protestantism altogether for a different Protestantism altogether for a different Christian tradition. Christian tradition. Christian tradition. And I'm really fascinated to try to And I'm really fascinated to try to And I'm really fascinated to try to understand that and to try to be a understand that and to try to be a understand that and to try to be a friend to those who are going through friend to those who are going through friend to those who are going through that process. that process. that process. Uh I think there's many causes for that, Uh I think there's many causes for that, Uh I think there's many causes for that, but at the root of it, what we want to but at the root of it, what we want to but at the root of it, what we want to do is see this as an opportunity for do is see this as an opportunity for do is see this as an opportunity for gospel ministry. gospel ministry. gospel ministry. Uh Jared just helped us think about so Uh Jared just helped us think about so Uh Jared just helped us think about so wonderfully the root need in every heart wonderfully the root need in every heart wonderfully the root need in every heart is for Jesus himself. And that's true is for Jesus himself. And that's true is for Jesus himself. And that's true for these big structural theological for these big structural theological for these big structural theological questions as well, like trying to find questions as well, like trying to find questions as well, like trying to find your place in church history. I think your place in church history. I think your place in church history. I think one of the causes for that right now one of the causes for that right now one of the causes for that right now is the instability of the world is the instability of the world is the instability of the world and the desire for a sense of roots and and the desire for a sense of roots and and the desire for a sense of roots and connection to the past. People are connection to the past. People are connection to the past. People are longing to be a part of something larger longing to be a part of something larger longing to be a part of something larger than themselves. That is a huge reality, than themselves. That is a huge reality, than themselves. That is a huge reality, especially especially especially honestly, what I one of the things I honestly, what I one of the things I honestly, what I one of the things I just want to give my life to right now just want to give my life to right now just want to give my life to right now is serving the younger generation. There is serving the younger generation. There is serving the younger generation. There is so much spiritual openness in Gen Z, is so much spiritual openness in Gen Z, is so much spiritual openness in Gen Z, and it's so exciting to see people open and it's so exciting to see people open and it's so exciting to see people open to the gospel.

to the gospel. to the gospel. And uh we have an opportunity here to And uh we have an opportunity here to And uh we have an opportunity here to speak to this experience. Let me just speak to this experience. Let me just speak to this experience. Let me just paint a profile, if I can, of what this paint a profile, if I can, of what this paint a profile, if I can, of what this might look like, and then I'll be very might look like, and then I'll be very might look like, and then I'll be very brief, actually. I just want to identify brief, actually. I just want to identify brief, actually. I just want to identify two particular aspects to this struggle two particular aspects to this struggle two particular aspects to this struggle and how that presents an opportunity for and how that presents an opportunity for and how that presents an opportunity for the gospel. Here's the profile. Imagine the gospel. Here's the profile. Imagine the gospel. Here's the profile. Imagine a 22-year-old young man. He has just a 22-year-old young man. He has just a 22-year-old young man. He has just graduated from college. He's grown up in graduated from college. He's grown up in graduated from college. He's grown up in the church. He loves Jesus. the church. He loves Jesus. the church. He loves Jesus. He's not considering leaving He's not considering leaving He's not considering leaving Christianity, Christianity, Christianity, but he's asking deeper questions about but he's asking deeper questions about but he's asking deeper questions about his faith. his faith. his faith. Uh he's been challenged by listening to Uh he's been challenged by listening to Uh he's been challenged by listening to the talking points of uh spokespeople the talking points of uh spokespeople the talking points of uh spokespeople for different Christian traditions, for different Christian traditions, for different Christian traditions, and he's realizing these issues are a and he's realizing these issues are a and he's realizing these issues are a lot more complicated than I ever lot more complicated than I ever lot more complicated than I ever realized growing up. And he's asking realized growing up. And he's asking realized growing up. And he's asking questions like, "If I believe that the questions like, "If I believe that the questions like, "If I believe that the scripture is our supreme standard, how scripture is our supreme standard, how scripture is our supreme standard, how do we know which books are in the do we know which books are in the do we know which books are in the scripture? scripture? scripture? And how do we know that the early church And how do we know that the early church And how do we know that the early church got that right? got that right? got that right? If the scripture is our supreme If the scripture is our supreme If the scripture is our supreme standard, standard, standard, what do we do what do we do what do we do to settle to settle to settle the legion disagreements that we have in the legion disagreements that we have in the legion disagreements that we have in interpreting the scripture and is it interpreting the scripture and is it interpreting the scripture and is it really the best really the best really the best uh scenario uh scenario uh scenario to that we simply plant a new church to that we simply plant a new church to that we simply plant a new church whenever there is a disagreement?

whenever there is a disagreement? whenever there is a disagreement? And so we have all these different And so we have all these different And so we have all these different spiraling up denominations and networks spiraling up denominations and networks spiraling up denominations and networks and groups and so forth. Is this the Is and groups and so forth. Is this the Is and groups and so forth. Is this the Is this how it should be? Um maybe they're this how it should be? Um maybe they're this how it should be? Um maybe they're just reading church history and they're just reading church history and they're just reading church history and they're they're just wondering, do I have any they're just wondering, do I have any they're just wondering, do I have any authentic connection to the past in this authentic connection to the past in this authentic connection to the past in this way? way? way? And what this ultimately produces is a And what this ultimately produces is a And what this ultimately produces is a sense of anxiety. sense of anxiety. sense of anxiety. Wondering, am I in the church that Jesus Wondering, am I in the church that Jesus Wondering, am I in the church that Jesus founded? founded? founded? And in some cases, more often than I And in some cases, more often than I And in some cases, more often than I expected to find, it produces the expected to find, it produces the expected to find, it produces the question, question, question, will I be saved? will I be saved? will I be saved? That at the at the root level, it comes That at the at the root level, it comes That at the at the root level, it comes down to that for so many. down to that for so many. down to that for so many. And I think there's a There actually are And I think there's a There actually are And I think there's a There actually are a lot of people like that right now. Uh a lot of people like that right now. Uh a lot of people like that right now. Uh some of you are pastors or serving in some of you are pastors or serving in some of you are pastors or serving in some other kind of ministry. I'm some other kind of ministry. I'm some other kind of ministry. I'm guessing that there are people under guessing that there are people under guessing that there are people under your care who are wrestling through your care who are wrestling through your care who are wrestling through questions like this. Others of you, I'm questions like this. Others of you, I'm questions like this. Others of you, I'm guessing, have friends who are in this guessing, have friends who are in this guessing, have friends who are in this circumstance. My heart burns with a circumstance. My heart burns with a circumstance. My heart burns with a passion to help them, to be a friend passion to help them, to be a friend passion to help them, to be a friend pointing them to Jesus because the pointing them to Jesus because the pointing them to Jesus because the ultimate need in all of that, without ultimate need in all of that, without ultimate need in all of that, without making it too simplistic, it is the making it too simplistic, it is the making it too simplistic, it is the gospel that the heart is searching for.

gospel that the heart is searching for. gospel that the heart is searching for. Let me unpack that just a little bit and Let me unpack that just a little bit and Let me unpack that just a little bit and I try to identify two aspects of that I try to identify two aspects of that I try to identify two aspects of that experience. I hope this would be helpful experience. I hope this would be helpful experience. I hope this would be helpful to you in whatever your ministry to you in whatever your ministry to you in whatever your ministry circumstances look like or even just circumstances look like or even just circumstances look like or even just being a friend to others in trying to being a friend to others in trying to being a friend to others in trying to sort of diagnose some of the uh dynamics sort of diagnose some of the uh dynamics sort of diagnose some of the uh dynamics of the moment, how we bring the gospel of the moment, how we bring the gospel of the moment, how we bring the gospel to them. So first I want to talk about to them. So first I want to talk about to them. So first I want to talk about anxiety anxiety anxiety to which we can bring gospel peace to which we can bring gospel peace to which we can bring gospel peace and then rootlessness and then rootlessness and then rootlessness to which we can bring gospel depth. to which we can bring gospel depth. to which we can bring gospel depth. These will be really fast. These will be really fast. These will be really fast. But first anxiety, I I don't think I But first anxiety, I I don't think I But first anxiety, I I don't think I need to convince us of the reality of need to convince us of the reality of need to convince us of the reality of this. We are in an epidemic or crisis of this. We are in an epidemic or crisis of this. We are in an epidemic or crisis of anxiety. In particular, Gen Z, though it anxiety. In particular, Gen Z, though it anxiety. In particular, Gen Z, though it is not limited to Gen Z. Uh is not limited to Gen Z. Uh is not limited to Gen Z. Uh but Gen Z, I think we can say is more but Gen Z, I think we can say is more but Gen Z, I think we can say is more anxious, more depressed, and more lonely anxious, more depressed, and more lonely anxious, more depressed, and more lonely than any previous generation on record. than any previous generation on record. than any previous generation on record. And I feel a fatherly burden for them to And I feel a fatherly burden for them to And I feel a fatherly burden for them to be a friend and point them to Christ. I be a friend and point them to Christ. I be a friend and point them to Christ. I know you so many of you do as well. know you so many of you do as well. know you so many of you do as well. That is the world that we live in and That is the world that we live in and That is the world that we live in and it's a multifaceted problem.

it's a multifaceted problem. it's a multifaceted problem. Not to be formulaic about this, but one Not to be formulaic about this, but one Not to be formulaic about this, but one particular opportunity that we have is particular opportunity that we have is particular opportunity that we have is to speak to our friends about assurance to speak to our friends about assurance to speak to our friends about assurance of salvation. of salvation. of salvation. Now I did not expect to be pulled into Now I did not expect to be pulled into Now I did not expect to be pulled into this. Uh all of us will have the this. Uh all of us will have the this. Uh all of us will have the experience sometime where something that experience sometime where something that experience sometime where something that hasn't been a part of our own journey hasn't been a part of our own journey hasn't been a part of our own journey comes into our ministry as we're just comes into our ministry as we're just comes into our ministry as we're just trying to help people. trying to help people. trying to help people. And uh I never would have thought that And uh I never would have thought that And uh I never would have thought that the word assurance would be one that the word assurance would be one that the word assurance would be one that becomes so precious to me personally and becomes so precious to me personally and becomes so precious to me personally and that I seek to hold out so much to that I seek to hold out so much to that I seek to hold out so much to others. others. others. But uh this is a tremendous need in the But uh this is a tremendous need in the But uh this is a tremendous need in the hearts of people today. hearts of people today. hearts of people today. And we have such rich uh resources we And we have such rich uh resources we And we have such rich uh resources we can draw from can draw from can draw from uh from our own tradition. We can go uh from our own tradition. We can go uh from our own tradition. We can go back to the Puritans, for example, who back to the Puritans, for example, who back to the Puritans, for example, who had so much to say had so much to say had so much to say about how the love of Jesus heals and about how the love of Jesus heals and about how the love of Jesus heals and nourishes and nourishes and nourishes and assures assures assures anxious hearts. Okay? Um anxious hearts. Okay? Um anxious hearts. Okay? Um Romans chapter 8, Romans chapter 8, Romans chapter 8, we have this wonderful idea that the we have this wonderful idea that the we have this wonderful idea that the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart.

Holy Spirit speaks to your heart. Holy Spirit speaks to your heart. The testimony of the Holy Spirit. The testimony of the Holy Spirit. The testimony of the Holy Spirit. Romans 8:15, you have received the Romans 8:15, you have received the Romans 8:15, you have received the spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba Father." Verse 16, the spirit cry, "Abba Father." Verse 16, the spirit cry, "Abba Father." Verse 16, the spirit himself himself himself bears witness bears witness bears witness with our spirit that we are children of with our spirit that we are children of with our spirit that we are children of God. So the Holy Spirit speaks to your God. So the Holy Spirit speaks to your God. So the Holy Spirit speaks to your heart heart heart and says to you, "You are a child of and says to you, "You are a child of and says to you, "You are a child of God." God." God." And I am uh fascinated And I am uh fascinated And I am uh fascinated to experience and then hold this out to to experience and then hold this out to to experience and then hold this out to others and hold this out to anxious others and hold this out to anxious others and hold this out to anxious hearts today. What does it feel like to hearts today. What does it feel like to hearts today. What does it feel like to have the Holy Spirit speaking to your have the Holy Spirit speaking to your have the Holy Spirit speaking to your heart? heart? heart? In my book on Protestantism, I provided In my book on Protestantism, I provided In my book on Protestantism, I provided an example from Catherine Parr, who was an example from Catherine Parr, who was an example from Catherine Parr, who was the final of Henry VIII's wives. She was the final of Henry VIII's wives. She was the final of Henry VIII's wives. She was raised as a Roman Catholic, but raised as a Roman Catholic, but raised as a Roman Catholic, but developed Protestant views and developed Protestant views and developed Protestant views and eventually wrote a book promoting eventually wrote a book promoting eventually wrote a book promoting justification by faith alone. When you justification by faith alone. When you justification by faith alone. When you study church history, it's the most study church history, it's the most study church history, it's the most strange story you could ever imagine. strange story you could ever imagine. strange story you could ever imagine. You learn things you never could have You learn things you never could have You learn things you never could have imagined. imagined. imagined. And her book is great. A great book And her book is great. A great book And her book is great. A great book about justification by faith alone. Let about justification by faith alone. Let about justification by faith alone. Let me read you a paragraph. Listen to the me read you a paragraph. Listen to the me read you a paragraph. Listen to the adjectives she uses and think about what adjectives she uses and think about what adjectives she uses and think about what she what is going on in her heart that she what is going on in her heart that she what is going on in her heart that would make her write this.

would make her write this. would make her write this. She says, "Come to me all you who are She says, "Come to me all you who are She says, "Come to me all you who are who labor and are burdened and I shall who labor and are burdened and I shall who labor and are burdened and I shall refresh you." She's quoting Matthew refresh you." She's quoting Matthew refresh you." She's quoting Matthew 11:28 there. 11:28 there. 11:28 there. "What gentle, merciful, and comfortable "What gentle, merciful, and comfortable "What gentle, merciful, and comfortable words are these to sinners? words are these to sinners? words are these to sinners? What a most gracious, comfortable, and What a most gracious, comfortable, and What a most gracious, comfortable, and gentle saying was this with such gentle saying was this with such gentle saying was this with such pleasant and sweet words to allure his pleasant and sweet words to allure his pleasant and sweet words to allure his enemies to come to him. enemies to come to him. enemies to come to him. When I behold the mercy and goodness of When I behold the mercy and goodness of When I behold the mercy and goodness of the Lord, I am encouraged, emboldened, the Lord, I am encouraged, emboldened, the Lord, I am encouraged, emboldened, and stirred to ask for such a gift as and stirred to ask for such a gift as and stirred to ask for such a gift as living faith. living faith. living faith. By this faith, I am assured. By this faith, I am assured. By this faith, I am assured. By this assurance, I feel the remission By this assurance, I feel the remission By this assurance, I feel the remission of my sins." There's a sentence right of my sins." There's a sentence right of my sins." There's a sentence right there I want to give to every anxious there I want to give to every anxious there I want to give to every anxious person in our culture. person in our culture. person in our culture. "This is it that makes me bold. This is "This is it that makes me bold. This is "This is it that makes me bold. This is it that comforts me. This is it that it that comforts me. This is it that it that comforts me. This is it that quenches all despair." quenches all despair." quenches all despair." "Thus I feel myself to come, as it were, "Thus I feel myself to come, as it were, "Thus I feel myself to come, as it were, in a new garment before God and now by in a new garment before God and now by in a new garment before God and now by his mercy to be taken as just and his mercy to be taken as just and his mercy to be taken as just and righteous."

righteous." righteous." So some of the words here in that So some of the words here in that So some of the words here in that paragraph I've I've read through many paragraph I've I've read through many paragraph I've I've read through many times and uh appreciated as an times and uh appreciated as an times and uh appreciated as an experience of gospel assurance. Uh experience of gospel assurance. Uh experience of gospel assurance. Uh gentle, pleasant, sweet, gentle, pleasant, sweet, gentle, pleasant, sweet, emboldened, emboldened, emboldened, assured, comfort. assured, comfort. assured, comfort. And and you ask, "What was going on in And and you ask, "What was going on in And and you ask, "What was going on in her heart that would lead her to say her heart that would lead her to say her heart that would lead her to say that?" that?" that?" And that is Romans 8:16. And that is Romans 8:16. And that is Romans 8:16. That is the Holy Spirit taking the That is the Holy Spirit taking the That is the Holy Spirit taking the truths of the gospel and speaking them truths of the gospel and speaking them truths of the gospel and speaking them to your heart, which you experience and to your heart, which you experience and to your heart, which you experience and receive by faith. receive by faith. receive by faith. To know that your sins are forgiven To know that your sins are forgiven To know that your sins are forgiven is the most comforting, nourishing, is the most comforting, nourishing, is the most comforting, nourishing, anxiety-reducing anxiety-reducing anxiety-reducing experience you can imagine. experience you can imagine. experience you can imagine. And my heart burns with a passion that And my heart burns with a passion that And my heart burns with a passion that Gen Z and others today as well would Gen Z and others today as well would Gen Z and others today as well would have that experience. Here's another way have that experience. Here's another way have that experience. Here's another way I'd like to think of it. Think of Jesus I'd like to think of it. Think of Jesus I'd like to think of it. Think of Jesus in the I love reading through the in the I love reading through the in the I love reading through the resurrection appearances where Christ resurrection appearances where Christ resurrection appearances where Christ appears to the disciples. So much of appears to the disciples. So much of appears to the disciples. So much of them is enthralling to to consider. But them is enthralling to to consider. But them is enthralling to to consider. But I love how frequently he greets them I love how frequently he greets them I love how frequently he greets them with the words, "Peace be with you."

with the words, "Peace be with you." with the words, "Peace be with you." And to think that I believe that is the And to think that I believe that is the And to think that I believe that is the disposition of the heart of Christ today disposition of the heart of Christ today disposition of the heart of Christ today for troubled believers. for troubled believers. for troubled believers. When we read the newspaper or when we When we read the newspaper or when we When we read the newspaper or when we are on social media and we feel anxiety are on social media and we feel anxiety are on social media and we feel anxiety ourselves, we need to go straight to the ourselves, we need to go straight to the ourselves, we need to go straight to the Lord Jesus Christ and he says to us as Lord Jesus Christ and he says to us as Lord Jesus Christ and he says to us as well, "Peace be with you." well, "Peace be with you." well, "Peace be with you." Think of the most calming, stabilizing Think of the most calming, stabilizing Think of the most calming, stabilizing experience you've ever had. experience you've ever had. experience you've ever had. Think of maybe you work in a stressful Think of maybe you work in a stressful Think of maybe you work in a stressful environment, but you have a garden that environment, but you have a garden that environment, but you have a garden that you can sneak away to or there's a you can sneak away to or there's a you can sneak away to or there's a Sabbath day or a vacation you know you Sabbath day or a vacation you know you Sabbath day or a vacation you know you can sneak away to. This is what Jesus can sneak away to. This is what Jesus can sneak away to. This is what Jesus and the gospel is to our anxiety. and the gospel is to our anxiety. and the gospel is to our anxiety. He invites us into his calm and the He invites us into his calm and the He invites us into his calm and the assurance of knowing, "I am a child of assurance of knowing, "I am a child of assurance of knowing, "I am a child of God. My sins are forgiven." God. My sins are forgiven." God. My sins are forgiven." And I just could put it as simply as I And I just could put it as simply as I And I just could put it as simply as I can to say hearts right now in 2025 are can to say hearts right now in 2025 are can to say hearts right now in 2025 are aching for that. aching for that. aching for that. And there is the anxiety is thick and we And there is the anxiety is thick and we And there is the anxiety is thick and we have gives us an opportunity to speak have gives us an opportunity to speak have gives us an opportunity to speak the peace of the gospel. the peace of the gospel. the peace of the gospel. The second thing I notice so much is The second thing I notice so much is The second thing I notice so much is rootlessness.

rootlessness. rootlessness. With how complicated and fast-paced and With how complicated and fast-paced and With how complicated and fast-paced and thin the modern world is, hearts are thin the modern world is, hearts are thin the modern world is, hearts are aching for a sense of connection to the aching for a sense of connection to the aching for a sense of connection to the past and a sense of connection to past and a sense of connection to past and a sense of connection to something transcendent. something transcendent. something transcendent. To reach the younger generation, we do To reach the younger generation, we do To reach the younger generation, we do not need gimmicks. not need gimmicks. not need gimmicks. We need substance. We need substance. We need substance. People want to go deep. And that I I People want to go deep. And that I I People want to go deep. And that I I believe that is true more than ever. believe that is true more than ever. believe that is true more than ever. This is a mistake I've made so many This is a mistake I've made so many This is a mistake I've made so many times in my ministry of underestimating times in my ministry of underestimating times in my ministry of underestimating the theological appetite of the sheep. the theological appetite of the sheep. the theological appetite of the sheep. People want to go deep. And uh I'll put People want to go deep. And uh I'll put People want to go deep. And uh I'll put out videos and books and other resources out videos and books and other resources out videos and books and other resources on church history and I'll talk about on church history and I'll talk about on church history and I'll talk about the Trinity or I'll talk about, you the Trinity or I'll talk about, you the Trinity or I'll talk about, you know, things that even even creeds and know, things that even even creeds and know, things that even even creeds and confessions, things like this. And my confessions, things like this. And my confessions, things like this. And my assumption is no one is going to watch assumption is no one is going to watch assumption is no one is going to watch this or no one is going to read this. this or no one is going to read this. this or no one is going to read this. And I'm amazed to find, you know what I And I'm amazed to find, you know what I And I'm amazed to find, you know what I discover? How many young people right discover? How many young people right discover? How many young people right now want that. now want that. now want that. And I just I look at that and I say, And I just I look at that and I say, And I just I look at that and I say, "Okay, what does that mean for how we "Okay, what does that mean for how we "Okay, what does that mean for how we hold out the gospel today?"

hold out the gospel today?" hold out the gospel today?" Uh if to use the categories of Hebrews Uh if to use the categories of Hebrews Uh if to use the categories of Hebrews 5, if 5, if 5, if people are want actually aching for the people are want actually aching for the people are want actually aching for the solid food and not the milk, solid food and not the milk, solid food and not the milk, then how do how do we meet that need then how do how do we meet that need then how do how do we meet that need with the gospel? with the gospel? with the gospel? I think we have a responsibility to meet I think we have a responsibility to meet I think we have a responsibility to meet healthy needs and so we want to touch healthy needs and so we want to touch healthy needs and so we want to touch that need in the heart. that need in the heart. that need in the heart. And once again, we have so many And once again, we have so many And once again, we have so many resources uh in our tradition that we resources uh in our tradition that we resources uh in our tradition that we can draw from. If you want to be can draw from. If you want to be can draw from. If you want to be historically connected, Christianity is historically connected, Christianity is historically connected, Christianity is a great religion to be a part of. When a great religion to be a part of. When a great religion to be a part of. When you come to Christ, you join the great you come to Christ, you join the great you come to Christ, you join the great tradition that goes back throughout all tradition that goes back throughout all tradition that goes back throughout all of human history to Cain versus Abel. of human history to Cain versus Abel. of human history to Cain versus Abel. And you are on the side, you know, the And you are on the side, you know, the And you are on the side, you know, the most nourishing verse for me these days most nourishing verse for me these days most nourishing verse for me these days is in Matthew 5 where it speaks about is in Matthew 5 where it speaks about is in Matthew 5 where it speaks about the prophets who went before you. And the prophets who went before you. And the prophets who went before you. And just this sense of we're a part of this just this sense of we're a part of this just this sense of we're a part of this great cause. great cause. great cause. Once again, the hearts of people around Once again, the hearts of people around Once again, the hearts of people around us are aching to be a part of a cause. us are aching to be a part of a cause. us are aching to be a part of a cause. And as Protestant Christians, one of the And as Protestant Christians, one of the And as Protestant Christians, one of the weaknesses that we often have is we weaknesses that we often have is we weaknesses that we often have is we neglect to study church history.

neglect to study church history. neglect to study church history. But there is nothing in our theology But there is nothing in our theology But there is nothing in our theology that requires that. that requires that. that requires that. When we profess to believe in Sola When we profess to believe in Sola When we profess to believe in Sola Scriptura, that is the doctrine that the Scriptura, that is the doctrine that the Scriptura, that is the doctrine that the scripture is our North Star. It's our scripture is our North Star. It's our scripture is our North Star. It's our only infallible rule. It checks only infallible rule. It checks only infallible rule. It checks everything else. everything else. everything else. It is not the idea that only the It is not the idea that only the It is not the idea that only the scripture is valuable or instructive or scripture is valuable or instructive or scripture is valuable or instructive or useful. useful. useful. Or that tradition has no place at all. Or that tradition has no place at all. Or that tradition has no place at all. And the early Protestants did this so And the early Protestants did this so And the early Protestants did this so well. well. well. People like Luther and Calvin engaged so People like Luther and Calvin engaged so People like Luther and Calvin engaged so carefully with the early church. carefully with the early church. carefully with the early church. And I just mention this not as a point And I just mention this not as a point And I just mention this not as a point to be academic about, but as a point of to be academic about, but as a point of to be academic about, but as a point of ministry actually. ministry actually. ministry actually. I think today in 2025 amidst the I think today in 2025 amidst the I think today in 2025 amidst the upheaval in our culture, we do well to upheaval in our culture, we do well to upheaval in our culture, we do well to be rooted in history. People are aching be rooted in history. People are aching be rooted in history. People are aching for a depth and a connection that the for a depth and a connection that the for a depth and a connection that the gospel of Jesus Christ meets and gospel of Jesus Christ meets and gospel of Jesus Christ meets and touches. Actually, it's the fulfillment touches. Actually, it's the fulfillment touches. Actually, it's the fulfillment for that longing.

for that longing. for that longing. And so we we have the privilege of And so we we have the privilege of And so we we have the privilege of inviting people into a story. inviting people into a story. inviting people into a story. Now I feel this frequently and I say Now I feel this frequently and I say Now I feel this frequently and I say this over and over. It's just what's in this over and over. It's just what's in this over and over. It's just what's in my heart right now is now is the time my heart right now is now is the time my heart right now is now is the time for evangelism. for evangelism. for evangelism. There is an openness in many hearts There is an openness in many hearts There is an openness in many hearts right now. right now. right now. And the and the rootlessness are my best And the and the rootlessness are my best And the and the rootlessness are my best effort at articulating some of what effort at articulating some of what effort at articulating some of what gives us an opportunity. gives us an opportunity. gives us an opportunity. We have the food for which the world is We have the food for which the world is We have the food for which the world is perishing with hunger. perishing with hunger. perishing with hunger. And that is Jesus and his gospel and now And that is Jesus and his gospel and now And that is Jesus and his gospel and now is the time to be bold and to speak out is the time to be bold and to speak out is the time to be bold and to speak out the truths that the truths that the truths that we ourselves are are nourished in. we ourselves are are nourished in. we ourselves are are nourished in. So just a final thought to say is in So just a final thought to say is in So just a final thought to say is in connection to all of this and and connection to all of this and and connection to all of this and and flowing out of this, returning to that flowing out of this, returning to that flowing out of this, returning to that word revival. word revival. word revival. Uh Uh Uh there one of the things I want to give there one of the things I want to give there one of the things I want to give my life to is to pray for a revival. my life to is to pray for a revival. my life to is to pray for a revival. And revival is nothing spooky or And revival is nothing spooky or And revival is nothing spooky or sensationalistic. Revival simply means a sensationalistic. Revival simply means a sensationalistic. Revival simply means a time of renewal in the church in the time of renewal in the church in the time of renewal in the church in the gospel. gospel. gospel. When Christians are freshly drawn in, When Christians are freshly drawn in, When Christians are freshly drawn in, you know, Jared helped us think about you know, Jared helped us think about you know, Jared helped us think about just that that experience of intimacy just that that experience of intimacy just that that experience of intimacy with Christ.

with Christ. with Christ. And all of us know we need to come back And all of us know we need to come back And all of us know we need to come back to that over and over again. When to that over and over again. When to that over and over again. When Christians when that, you know, breaks Christians when that, you know, breaks Christians when that, you know, breaks upon your heart afresh. And it's like upon your heart afresh. And it's like upon your heart afresh. And it's like the first time you became a Christian the first time you became a Christian the first time you became a Christian and it lands upon you in that meaningful and it lands upon you in that meaningful and it lands upon you in that meaningful way. And when many others outside of the way. And when many others outside of the way. And when many others outside of the church come to know Jesus. church come to know Jesus. church come to know Jesus. Uh Uh Uh let's pray for revival. let's pray for revival. let's pray for revival. In the midst of the upheaval, in the In the midst of the upheaval, in the In the midst of the upheaval, in the midst of the sense of rootlessness, now midst of the sense of rootlessness, now midst of the sense of rootlessness, now is a great time for evangelism and for is a great time for evangelism and for is a great time for evangelism and for moving forward. Building something moving forward. Building something moving forward. Building something hopeful and constructive that we can hopeful and constructive that we can hopeful and constructive that we can offer to people. So I guess I just this offer to people. So I guess I just this offer to people. So I guess I just this is not complicated. This final point, is not complicated. This final point, is not complicated. This final point, this is pretty simple. But I just keep this is pretty simple. But I just keep this is pretty simple. But I just keep saying it cuz I think it's a great thing saying it cuz I think it's a great thing saying it cuz I think it's a great thing to emphasize is let's pray for revival. to emphasize is let's pray for revival. to emphasize is let's pray for revival. Let's pray for a new work of God in our Let's pray for a new work of God in our Let's pray for a new work of God in our day. day. day. Uh Uh Uh there's an openness in hearts right now. there's an openness in hearts right now. there's an openness in hearts right now. Uh Uh Uh just leave you with this sort of image I just leave you with this sort of image I just leave you with this sort of image I guess. guess. guess. As I've been building friendships with As I've been building friendships with As I've been building friendships with these wonderful precious people in the these wonderful precious people in the these wonderful precious people in the younger generation, younger generation, younger generation, one of the guys I've gotten to know, one of the guys I've gotten to know, one of the guys I've gotten to know, I've just been watching the Holy Spirit I've just been watching the Holy Spirit I've just been watching the Holy Spirit work on him and draw him closer to the work on him and draw him closer to the work on him and draw him closer to the gospel. And he's he's gone from atheism gospel. And he's he's gone from atheism gospel. And he's he's gone from atheism to agnosticism and then agnosticism to to agnosticism and then agnosticism to to agnosticism and then agnosticism to theism. And then in that stage for a theism. And then in that stage for a theism. And then in that stage for a while there was while there was while there was just this articulation of well, why am a just this articulation of well, why am a just this articulation of well, why am a theist but I'm not a Christian. But I theist but I'm not a Christian. But I theist but I'm not a Christian. But I knew the Lord was stirring in his heart.

knew the Lord was stirring in his heart. knew the Lord was stirring in his heart. I remember one particular conversation. I remember one particular conversation. I remember one particular conversation. Uh Uh Uh I just decided I'm not going to argue I just decided I'm not going to argue I just decided I'm not going to argue with any of his points because I know with any of his points because I know with any of his points because I know the Lord is already breaking that down. the Lord is already breaking that down. the Lord is already breaking that down. And And And drawing him closer to himself. And sure drawing him closer to himself. And sure drawing him closer to himself. And sure enough, about a enough, about a enough, about a was not long after that when he began to was not long after that when he began to was not long after that when he began to articulate himself articulate himself articulate himself responses to all of his objections to responses to all of his objections to responses to all of his objections to the gospel. the gospel. the gospel. And this isn't it I mean is there And this isn't it I mean is there And this isn't it I mean is there anything more wonderful than seeing anything more wonderful than seeing anything more wonderful than seeing people come to know the Lord? people come to know the Lord? people come to know the Lord? And is there anything better to just And is there anything better to just And is there anything better to just give ourselves to right now? Now is a give ourselves to right now? Now is a give ourselves to right now? Now is a time for evangelism. I just mention that time for evangelism. I just mention that time for evangelism. I just mention that as one sort of anecdotal observation of as one sort of anecdotal observation of as one sort of anecdotal observation of just how many other people just how many other people just how many other people are in a similar place and the Lord is are in a similar place and the Lord is are in a similar place and the Lord is drawing people to himself right now. And drawing people to himself right now. And drawing people to himself right now. And we have the opportunity to be bold in we have the opportunity to be bold in we have the opportunity to be bold in speaking the name of Jesus. speaking the name of Jesus. speaking the name of Jesus. And praying for a fresh work of God and And praying for a fresh work of God and And praying for a fresh work of God and calling hearts back to the ancient calling hearts back to the ancient calling hearts back to the ancient gospel of Jesus Christ. gospel of Jesus Christ. gospel of Jesus Christ. So thanks for listening and we'll have a So thanks for listening and we'll have a So thanks for listening and we'll have a chance to talk more about this.

All right. So while preparing for this All right. So while preparing for this talk, I I found out this story I wanted talk, I I found out this story I wanted talk, I I found out this story I wanted to begin with is actually very likely to begin with is actually very likely to begin with is actually very likely apocryphal, but I'm going to use it apocryphal, but I'm going to use it apocryphal, but I'm going to use it anyway. anyway. anyway. Primarily because it's just really good Primarily because it's just really good Primarily because it's just really good and really helpful and you may have even and really helpful and you may have even and really helpful and you may have even heard it before because it is a favorite heard it before because it is a favorite heard it before because it is a favorite among preachers and for good reason. among preachers and for good reason. among preachers and for good reason. It's one of those pithy illustrations It's one of those pithy illustrations It's one of those pithy illustrations that really just kind of cuts through that really just kind of cuts through that really just kind of cuts through all the white noise all the white noise all the white noise and holds up a mirror to our hearts. and holds up a mirror to our hearts. and holds up a mirror to our hearts. The story goes that in the early 1900s The story goes that in the early 1900s The story goes that in the early 1900s an editor from The Times newspaper in an editor from The Times newspaper in an editor from The Times newspaper in London London London asked several prominent writers and asked several prominent writers and asked several prominent writers and authors including G.K. Chesterton authors including G.K. Chesterton authors including G.K. Chesterton to write an essay in answer to the to write an essay in answer to the to write an essay in answer to the question question question what is wrong with the world? what is wrong with the world? what is wrong with the world? Chesterton reportedly submitted a letter Chesterton reportedly submitted a letter Chesterton reportedly submitted a letter reading only reading only reading only Dear Sir, Dear Sir, Dear Sir, I am I am I am yours, yours, yours, G.K. Chesterton. I wonder how most people would answer I wonder how most people would answer that question today. that question today. that question today. Chesterton's answer was so powerful Chesterton's answer was so powerful Chesterton's answer was so powerful because our tendency to look outward because our tendency to look outward because our tendency to look outward rather than inward is timeless and rather than inward is timeless and rather than inward is timeless and universal to be sure.

universal to be sure. universal to be sure. But even maybe even especially our wrong But even maybe even especially our wrong But even maybe even especially our wrong answers can tell us something about answers can tell us something about answers can tell us something about where we are as a culture and as a where we are as a culture and as a where we are as a culture and as a society. society. society. For example, For example, For example, if Chesterton were alive and he's today if Chesterton were alive and he's today if Chesterton were alive and he's today and he spent more than 5 minutes and he spent more than 5 minutes and he spent more than 5 minutes watching the news or listening to watching the news or listening to watching the news or listening to politicians or pursuing perusing social politicians or pursuing perusing social politicians or pursuing perusing social media, he could be forgiven media, he could be forgiven media, he could be forgiven for thinking that finger pointing has for thinking that finger pointing has for thinking that finger pointing has replaced baseball as America's pastime. But because he hasn't been swimming in But because he hasn't been swimming in the water like the rest of us fish, the water like the rest of us fish, the water like the rest of us fish, he might even notice that even though he might even notice that even though he might even notice that even though we're all fracturing into an infinite we're all fracturing into an infinite we're all fracturing into an infinite number of different teams, we all seem number of different teams, we all seem number of different teams, we all seem to be using the exact same playbook. to be using the exact same playbook. to be using the exact same playbook. I say that because I say that because I say that because if you squint just a little bit and I if you squint just a little bit and I if you squint just a little bit and I might be dating myself with this, but might be dating myself with this, but might be dating myself with this, but how many of you remember the the magic how many of you remember the the magic how many of you remember the the magic eye books where you like damage your eye books where you like damage your eye books where you like damage your eyesight by crossing your eyes and and eyesight by crossing your eyes and and eyesight by crossing your eyes and and it's worth it. When you see that picture it's worth it. When you see that picture it's worth it. When you see that picture like, oh, I can't unsee it now, right?

like, oh, I can't unsee it now, right? like, oh, I can't unsee it now, right? But if you squint a little bit, there's But if you squint a little bit, there's But if you squint a little bit, there's a pattern that starts to emerge, namely a pattern that starts to emerge, namely a pattern that starts to emerge, namely that nearly all of our modern answers that nearly all of our modern answers that nearly all of our modern answers are variations of the same formula. are variations of the same formula. are variations of the same formula. We are all very convinced We are all very convinced We are all very convinced that institutions and those who lead that institutions and those who lead that institutions and those who lead them them them are what's wrong with the world. are what's wrong with the world. are what's wrong with the world. In fact, that might that belief might be In fact, that might that belief might be In fact, that might that belief might be the only thing we still share in common. When my wife and I started planting the When my wife and I started planting the table church in Boulder County, table church in Boulder County, table church in Boulder County, Colorado, we launched two Sundays before Colorado, we launched two Sundays before Colorado, we launched two Sundays before the 2016 election. the 2016 election. the 2016 election. You can pray for us. You can pray for us. You can pray for us. I expected that the hardest part would I expected that the hardest part would I expected that the hardest part would be in persuading non-Christians that God be in persuading non-Christians that God be in persuading non-Christians that God exists and that they need Jesus. exists and that they need Jesus. exists and that they need Jesus. But by several orders of magnitude, it But by several orders of magnitude, it But by several orders of magnitude, it has been a lot harder to persuade anyone has been a lot harder to persuade anyone has been a lot harder to persuade anyone that Christ's bride is beautiful or good that Christ's bride is beautiful or good that Christ's bride is beautiful or good for anyone. for anyone. for anyone. At best, church At best, church At best, church just isn't really worth the effort just isn't really worth the effort just isn't really worth the effort because there are so many more options because there are so many more options because there are so many more options that we have available to us to rest, that we have available to us to rest, that we have available to us to rest, to feel connected to God.

to feel connected to God. to feel connected to God. At worst, At worst, At worst, the church is the root of all that's the church is the root of all that's the church is the root of all that's evil and wrong with the world and evil and wrong with the world and evil and wrong with the world and pastors are either narcissists or pastors are either narcissists or pastors are either narcissists or I don't know, shepherds for sale. I don't know, shepherds for sale. I don't know, shepherds for sale. Thoughts and prayers, Gavin. I say to my say to our people at the I say to my say to our people at the table all the time, table all the time, table all the time, don't hear what I'm not saying. don't hear what I'm not saying. don't hear what I'm not saying. Okay? Okay? Okay? No institution is immune to corruption No institution is immune to corruption No institution is immune to corruption or abuse including the church. or abuse including the church. or abuse including the church. And I'm not arguing otherwise. And I'm not arguing otherwise. And I'm not arguing otherwise. What I'm arguing is that that maybe the What I'm arguing is that that maybe the What I'm arguing is that that maybe the only thing that we have accomplished only thing that we have accomplished only thing that we have accomplished after 10 years or more of culture wars after 10 years or more of culture wars after 10 years or more of culture wars is this very new universal social is this very new universal social is this very new universal social consensus that institutions including consensus that institutions including consensus that institutions including the church the church the church are inherently and inevitably harmful. I recently I recently came across a tweet or whatever we're came across a tweet or whatever we're came across a tweet or whatever we're supposed to call them these days supposed to call them these days supposed to call them these days that illustrates just how much harder that illustrates just how much harder that illustrates just how much harder this makes ministry in the local church.

this makes ministry in the local church. this makes ministry in the local church. The tweet reads and I quote, when I say The tweet reads and I quote, when I say The tweet reads and I quote, when I say deconstruction, I'm referring to an deconstruction, I'm referring to an deconstruction, I'm referring to an attempt to recognize attempt to recognize attempt to recognize the difference the difference the difference between God himself between God himself between God himself and the scaffolding that's been erected and the scaffolding that's been erected and the scaffolding that's been erected around him around him around him through generations of man-made through generations of man-made through generations of man-made institutions, institutions, institutions, traditions, and power grabs. traditions, and power grabs. traditions, and power grabs. Here's the most heartbreaking part. The Here's the most heartbreaking part. The Here's the most heartbreaking part. The very end of this tweet reads, very end of this tweet reads, very end of this tweet reads, I just want to see his face. Frankly, if it is already a foregone Frankly, if it is already a foregone conclusion conclusion conclusion that truth, goodness, and beauty can that truth, goodness, and beauty can that truth, goodness, and beauty can only be found on our own and apart from only be found on our own and apart from only be found on our own and apart from institutions, then it is a miracle of institutions, then it is a miracle of institutions, then it is a miracle of the highest order that only 40 million the highest order that only 40 million the highest order that only 40 million people have left the church over the people have left the church over the people have left the church over the last 25 years. last 25 years. last 25 years. That said, That said, That said, this anti-institutional attitude is not this anti-institutional attitude is not this anti-institutional attitude is not something that most of us have actually something that most of us have actually something that most of us have actually consciously chosen or or opted into. consciously chosen or or opted into. consciously chosen or or opted into. Rather, it is the primary symptom of Rather, it is the primary symptom of Rather, it is the primary symptom of Stockholm syndrome Stockholm syndrome Stockholm syndrome with radical individualism.

with radical individualism. with radical individualism. For example, For example, For example, if you think that God's face has been if you think that God's face has been if you think that God's face has been obscured by institutional scaffolding, obscured by institutional scaffolding, obscured by institutional scaffolding, just wait until you just wait until you just wait until you harm your eyesight with a magic eye harm your eyesight with a magic eye harm your eyesight with a magic eye and you start seeing how individualism and you start seeing how individualism and you start seeing how individualism reinforces and surrounds the modern self reinforces and surrounds the modern self reinforces and surrounds the modern self with more social and cultural with more social and cultural with more social and cultural reinforcement than Notre Dame has flying reinforcement than Notre Dame has flying reinforcement than Notre Dame has flying buttresses. buttresses. buttresses. And yes, I did just want to say flying And yes, I did just want to say flying And yes, I did just want to say flying buttresses in a talk. buttresses in a talk. buttresses in a talk. Right? Right? Right? Who's You can't blame me for that. Who's You can't blame me for that. Who's You can't blame me for that. Politicians, right? Tell us to rock the Politicians, right? Tell us to rock the Politicians, right? Tell us to rock the vote vote vote because our voice is a sacrament. because our voice is a sacrament. because our voice is a sacrament. Disney, Disney, Disney, through Elsa or any number of through Elsa or any number of through Elsa or any number of interchangeable heroes, tells you to let interchangeable heroes, tells you to let interchangeable heroes, tells you to let it go because autonomy is our salvation. it go because autonomy is our salvation. it go because autonomy is our salvation. Social media tells us to burn it down Social media tells us to burn it down Social media tells us to burn it down because your outrage is righteous. because your outrage is righteous. because your outrage is righteous. And everyone preaches, you do you And everyone preaches, you do you And everyone preaches, you do you because following your heart is because following your heart is because following your heart is following God.

following God. following God. Each and every one of these, make no Each and every one of these, make no Each and every one of these, make no mistake, is a sermon on the gospel of mistake, is a sermon on the gospel of mistake, is a sermon on the gospel of individualism. individualism. individualism. And as bad as that news is individually, And as bad as that news is individually, And as bad as that news is individually, it is even worse news for society. it is even worse news for society. it is even worse news for society. I love this. I If you I love this. I If you I love this. I If you if you follow this kind of thing, we're if you follow this kind of thing, we're if you follow this kind of thing, we're seeing this more and more often. A A seeing this more and more often. A A seeing this more and more often. A A growing number of non-Christian writers growing number of non-Christian writers growing number of non-Christian writers and thinkers and thinkers and thinkers are now arguing that our most are now arguing that our most are now arguing that our most debilitating social and cultural crises, debilitating social and cultural crises, debilitating social and cultural crises, just like Gavin and Jared were talking just like Gavin and Jared were talking just like Gavin and Jared were talking about, about, about, are all downstream of this great are all downstream of this great are all downstream of this great de-churching. de-churching. de-churching. One of those thinkers and cultural One of those thinkers and cultural One of those thinkers and cultural commentators, uh Derek Thompson, commentators, uh Derek Thompson, commentators, uh Derek Thompson, he's a left-of-center staff writer at he's a left-of-center staff writer at he's a left-of-center staff writer at The Atlantic. He wrote an article almost The Atlantic. He wrote an article almost The Atlantic. He wrote an article almost exactly a year ago exactly a year ago exactly a year ago titled The True Cost of the Church Going titled The True Cost of the Church Going titled The True Cost of the Church Going Bust. Bust. Bust. In the opening paragraph, In the opening paragraph, In the opening paragraph, here's what he writes. here's what he writes. here's what he writes. He says, "As an agnostic, I've spent He says, "As an agnostic, I've spent He says, "As an agnostic, I've spent most of my life thinking about the most of my life thinking about the most of my life thinking about the decline of faith in America in mostly decline of faith in America in mostly decline of faith in America in mostly positive terms. positive terms. positive terms. Organized religion seemed to me beset by Organized religion seemed to me beset by Organized religion seemed to me beset by scandal and entangled in noxious scandal and entangled in noxious scandal and entangled in noxious politics.

politics. politics. Only in the past few years have I come Only in the past few years have I come Only in the past few years have I come around to a different view. around to a different view. around to a different view. Maybe religion, for all of its faults, Maybe religion, for all of its faults, Maybe religion, for all of its faults, works a bit like a retaining wall to works a bit like a retaining wall to works a bit like a retaining wall to hold back the destabilizing pressure of hold back the destabilizing pressure of hold back the destabilizing pressure of American hyper-individualism, American hyper-individualism, American hyper-individualism, which threatens to swell and spill over which threatens to swell and spill over which threatens to swell and spill over in its absence." Turns out Turns out that if you spend several decades that if you spend several decades that if you spend several decades preaching preaching preaching that Christianity is not an that Christianity is not an that Christianity is not an institutionally bound religion, but a institutionally bound religion, but a institutionally bound religion, but a personal relationship only, personal relationship only, personal relationship only, eventually eventually eventually all of society will start believing us. The technical term that sociologists use The technical term that sociologists use to describe how that's going is not to describe how that's going is not to describe how that's going is not good. I'm glad we're laughing instead of I'm glad we're laughing instead of crying. This is healthy, guys. crying. This is healthy, guys. crying. This is healthy, guys. Sarcasm aside, whether we intended to or Sarcasm aside, whether we intended to or Sarcasm aside, whether we intended to or not, and not, and not, and truly, most have not, truly, most have not, truly, most have not, preaching a gospel-centered theology preaching a gospel-centered theology preaching a gospel-centered theology without a Christ-centered ecclesiology without a Christ-centered ecclesiology without a Christ-centered ecclesiology has made multiple generations of has made multiple generations of has made multiple generations of lopsided disciples who know and love lopsided disciples who know and love lopsided disciples who know and love Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, but could take or leave his bride.

This has even affected This has even affected infected infected infected the way that we read and understand the the way that we read and understand the the way that we read and understand the Great Commission. Great Commission. Great Commission. We'll talk about that more in a minute. We'll talk about that more in a minute. We'll talk about that more in a minute. I wrote The Reason for Church to I wrote The Reason for Church to I wrote The Reason for Church to understand to try and understand explain understand to try and understand explain understand to try and understand explain why we keep sawing off the limb that we why we keep sawing off the limb that we why we keep sawing off the limb that we are standing on. are standing on. are standing on. Why the Christians who seem the most Why the Christians who seem the most Why the Christians who seem the most spiritually mature in our congregations spiritually mature in our congregations spiritually mature in our congregations are often the quickest to leave. are often the quickest to leave. are often the quickest to leave. Why everybody needs therapy, Why everybody needs therapy, Why everybody needs therapy, nobody wants shepherding, nobody wants shepherding, nobody wants shepherding, and yet we're only growing more fragile, and yet we're only growing more fragile, and yet we're only growing more fragile, anxious, anxious, anxious, and rootless. and rootless. and rootless. Why we finally accept the social accept Why we finally accept the social accept Why we finally accept the social accept that social media is bad for our mental that social media is bad for our mental that social media is bad for our mental health, but we still reject that it health, but we still reject that it health, but we still reject that it might be forming or shaping our souls. might be forming or shaping our souls. might be forming or shaping our souls. Why our politics look more like Why our politics look more like Why our politics look more like professional wrestling than professional wrestling than professional wrestling than problem-solving. problem-solving. problem-solving. Rest in peace, our 401k's. Why Why we've replaced trust with power Why Why we've replaced trust with power as our currency for relationship, as our currency for relationship, as our currency for relationship, and we feel even less safe than we did and we feel even less safe than we did and we feel even less safe than we did before.

Each of these things that I'm mentioning Each of these things that I'm mentioning are connected to a different of five are connected to a different of five are connected to a different of five church defeaters church defeaters church defeaters that I cover in the part one of my book. that I cover in the part one of my book. that I cover in the part one of my book. Yes, The Reason for Church is an Yes, The Reason for Church is an Yes, The Reason for Church is an allusion to Tim Keller's The Reason for allusion to Tim Keller's The Reason for allusion to Tim Keller's The Reason for God, because I'm taking his defeater God, because I'm taking his defeater God, because I'm taking his defeater beliefs idea and applying them not to beliefs idea and applying them not to beliefs idea and applying them not to with respect to God, but with respect to with respect to God, but with respect to with respect to God, but with respect to church and our willingness to believe or church and our willingness to believe or church and our willingness to believe or to trust in the local church. to trust in the local church. to trust in the local church. These church defeaters are beliefs, These church defeaters are beliefs, These church defeaters are beliefs, cultural beliefs, and assumptions of cultural beliefs, and assumptions of cultural beliefs, and assumptions of individualism individualism individualism that make participating in a local that make participating in a local that make participating in a local church implausible, if not impossible. church implausible, if not impossible. church implausible, if not impossible. They're the brick and mortar They're the brick and mortar They're the brick and mortar that we use to build our own modern that we use to build our own modern that we use to build our own modern towers of Babel. towers of Babel. towers of Babel. But also, what's interesting is we do it But also, what's interesting is we do it But also, what's interesting is we do it for the same reason for the same reason for the same reason that Genesis says Genesis 11 says that Genesis says Genesis 11 says that Genesis says Genesis 11 says motivated the original tower builders, motivated the original tower builders, motivated the original tower builders, to make a name for ourselves. to make a name for ourselves. to make a name for ourselves. Now, Now, Now, in saying that, I know that we typically in saying that, I know that we typically in saying that, I know that we typically swap out the word name for identity, swap out the word name for identity, swap out the word name for identity, but we mean the exact same thing. To but we mean the exact same thing. To but we mean the exact same thing. To make an identity for ourselves means to make an identity for ourselves means to make an identity for ourselves means to have the freedom and the power to author have the freedom and the power to author have the freedom and the power to author our own story, our own story, our own story, to craft our own meaning, to craft our own meaning, to craft our own meaning, and to achieve our own dignity, value, and to achieve our own dignity, value, and to achieve our own dignity, value, and worth, and worth, and worth, but without having to rely on God for but without having to rely on God for but without having to rely on God for any of it.

After all, After all, you can't very well make a good or you can't very well make a good or you can't very well make a good or beautiful name for ourselves if we are beautiful name for ourselves if we are beautiful name for ourselves if we are what's wrong with the world, can we? what's wrong with the world, can we? what's wrong with the world, can we? Now, Now, Now, to be fair, to be fair, to be fair, I can very personally empathize with I can very personally empathize with I can very personally empathize with wanting to make a name for ourselves. wanting to make a name for ourselves. wanting to make a name for ourselves. Mostly because I really Mostly because I really Mostly because I really really do not like my given name, Brad. really do not like my given name, Brad. really do not like my given name, Brad. Second only to Chad, and apologies to Second only to Chad, and apologies to Second only to Chad, and apologies to any Chads in the room, any Chads in the room, any Chads in the room, because I know you know where I'm going because I know you know where I'm going because I know you know where I'm going with this. with this. with this. Brad might be Hollywood's favorite name Brad might be Hollywood's favorite name Brad might be Hollywood's favorite name for characters with that special kind of for characters with that special kind of for characters with that special kind of incompetent cluelessness, incompetent cluelessness, incompetent cluelessness, which we have dubbed a bro. which we have dubbed a bro. which we have dubbed a bro. Truly, Truly, Truly, truly I say unto you, truly I say unto you, truly I say unto you, what could possibly be more wrong with what could possibly be more wrong with what could possibly be more wrong with the world than a bro? Right? We have We have gym bros. Right? We have We have gym bros. This is TGC, so we have theo bros. We This is TGC, so we have theo bros. We This is TGC, so we have theo bros. We need to own this. need to own this. need to own this. We have hipster bros. And when a when a finance bro and a tech And when a when a finance bro and a tech bro really love each other, bro really love each other, bro really love each other, you get the invasive species called the you get the invasive species called the you get the invasive species called the crypto bro.

Yes, I'm inordinately proud of that. Yes, I'm inordinately proud of that. My very belabored, but no doubt My very belabored, but no doubt My very belabored, but no doubt hilarious point here is that hilarious point here is that hilarious point here is that whether by fraternity membership or whether by fraternity membership or whether by fraternity membership or temperament, let's just say that Brad falls short in let's just say that Brad falls short in conveying the significance, meaning, and conveying the significance, meaning, and conveying the significance, meaning, and worth that I personally long for, worth that I personally long for, worth that I personally long for, especially in this cultural moment. especially in this cultural moment. especially in this cultural moment. And also, And also, And also, so what? so what? so what? That's okay. That's okay. That's okay. Because the really good news that I Because the really good news that I Because the really good news that I unpack in the second half of The Reason unpack in the second half of The Reason unpack in the second half of The Reason for Church is that God's word, from for Church is that God's word, from for Church is that God's word, from beginning to end, explains that the name beginning to end, explains that the name beginning to end, explains that the name we long for is not earned by us at all we long for is not earned by us at all we long for is not earned by us at all or achieved on our own. or achieved on our own. or achieved on our own. It is bestowed by God's grace and It is bestowed by God's grace and It is bestowed by God's grace and received among God's people, both. Bestowed by God's grace and received Bestowed by God's grace and received among God's people. among God's people. among God's people. In fact, the entire point of Genesis 12 In fact, the entire point of Genesis 12 In fact, the entire point of Genesis 12 is that these two are the two sides of is that these two are the two sides of is that these two are the two sides of the same coin. the same coin. the same coin. Immediately after the Tower of Babel Immediately after the Tower of Babel Immediately after the Tower of Babel narrative in Genesis 11, God promises to narrative in Genesis 11, God promises to narrative in Genesis 11, God promises to bless a childless geriatric named bless a childless geriatric named bless a childless geriatric named Abraham Abraham Abraham so that he will be a blessing.

Abraham asks, "How will How will you Abraham asks, "How will How will you bless me?" God says bless me?" God says bless me?" God says in a twofold answer, in a twofold answer, in a twofold answer, "I will make a great nation out of you, "I will make a great nation out of you, "I will make a great nation out of you, and I will make your name and I will make your name and I will make your name great." great." great." This is a direct response to the Tower This is a direct response to the Tower This is a direct response to the Tower of Babel narrative. However, However, as we know, it doesn't happen overnight, as we know, it doesn't happen overnight, as we know, it doesn't happen overnight, right? right? right? It takes several generations and the It takes several generations and the It takes several generations and the complete loss of freedom and power over complete loss of freedom and power over complete loss of freedom and power over 400 years of Egyptian slavery for 400 years of Egyptian slavery for 400 years of Egyptian slavery for Abraham's descendants to become a true Abraham's descendants to become a true Abraham's descendants to become a true multitude with a proper name. And even multitude with a proper name. And even multitude with a proper name. And even then, then, then, as we know, if you were even remotely as we know, if you were even remotely as we know, if you were even remotely familiar with Genesis and Exodus, familiar with Genesis and Exodus, familiar with Genesis and Exodus, neither the people nor the name of neither the people nor the name of neither the people nor the name of Israel Israel Israel were anything we would consider great. were anything we would consider great. were anything we would consider great. That didn't happen until after God That didn't happen until after God That didn't happen until after God delivered Israel from bondage. delivered Israel from bondage. delivered Israel from bondage. And so, And so, And so, at one point, while wandering around in at one point, while wandering around in at one point, while wandering around in the wilderness, God tells Moses to have the wilderness, God tells Moses to have the wilderness, God tells Moses to have his chief priest, Aaron, bless Israel his chief priest, Aaron, bless Israel his chief priest, Aaron, bless Israel with the benediction found in Numbers 6.

with the benediction found in Numbers 6. with the benediction found in Numbers 6. "The Lord bless you and keep you. "The Lord bless you and keep you. "The Lord bless you and keep you. The Lord make his face The Lord make his face The Lord make his face to shine upon you to shine upon you to shine upon you and be gracious to you. and be gracious to you. and be gracious to you. The Lord lift up his countenance." That The Lord lift up his countenance." That The Lord lift up his countenance." That word countenance is the same word we word countenance is the same word we word countenance is the same word we translate as face in the previous verse. translate as face in the previous verse. translate as face in the previous verse. "The Lord lift up his countenance upon "The Lord lift up his countenance upon "The Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace." It's almost you and give you peace." It's almost you and give you peace." It's almost like God's trying to tell us something like God's trying to tell us something like God's trying to tell us something about this. First of all, First of all, our first takeaway here is our first takeaway here is our first takeaway here is it's going to be really hard it's going to be really hard it's going to be really hard as that tweet read earlier I read as that tweet read earlier I read as that tweet read earlier I read earlier to see God's face earlier to see God's face earlier to see God's face if you were not seeking his face if you were not seeking his face if you were not seeking his face from among the people his loving gaze from among the people his loving gaze from among the people his loving gaze ordinarily shines upon. And as beautiful as that is, it actually And as beautiful as that is, it actually pales in comparison to the reason that pales in comparison to the reason that pales in comparison to the reason that God gives for this blessing in the very God gives for this blessing in the very God gives for this blessing in the very next verse. In verse 27, next verse. In verse 27, next verse. In verse 27, God says to to Moses and to tell Aaron God says to to Moses and to tell Aaron God says to to Moses and to tell Aaron this and then to This is the reason why this and then to This is the reason why this and then to This is the reason why he does it. he does it. he does it. So shall they put my name So shall they put my name So shall they put my name upon the people upon the people upon the people great nation great nation great nation of Israel of Israel of Israel and I will and I will and I will bless them.

bless them. bless them. Do you see it? You see, for God to put his name upon You see, for God to put his name upon Israel is to do so much more than to Israel is to do so much more than to Israel is to do so much more than to claim them as a people for his own claim them as a people for his own claim them as a people for his own possession as if they were his favorite possession as if they were his favorite possession as if they were his favorite toy or something. toy or something. toy or something. It's also even more than the initial It's also even more than the initial It's also even more than the initial fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. fulfillment of God's promise to Abraham. You might say the true and better You might say the true and better You might say the true and better promise to Abraham. promise to Abraham. promise to Abraham. To put God For God to put his name upon To put God For God to put his name upon To put God For God to put his name upon his people is to really, truly, and his people is to really, truly, and his people is to really, truly, and actually, not just symbolically, impart actually, not just symbolically, impart actually, not just symbolically, impart his authority and his presence, both. his authority and his presence, both. his authority and his presence, both. His authority and his presence. Israel becomes a great nation with a Israel becomes a great nation with a great name because they have a great God great name because they have a great God great name because they have a great God who so fully identifies with his people who so fully identifies with his people who so fully identifies with his people that he goes anywhere and everywhere that he goes anywhere and everywhere that he goes anywhere and everywhere they go. they go. they go. In other words, In other words, In other words, to know Israel to know Israel to know Israel is is is to know their God. to know their God. to know their God. And if you want to know Yahweh, then you And if you want to know Yahweh, then you And if you want to know Yahweh, then you must be among his people.

But if you can believe it, But if you can believe it, this actually gets even better still this actually gets even better still this actually gets even better still because at at last we come to what I was because at at last we come to what I was because at at last we come to what I was alluding to with the Great Commission. alluding to with the Great Commission. alluding to with the Great Commission. And because I know that there are some And because I know that there are some And because I know that there are some Baptists in the room, Baptists in the room, Baptists in the room, I'm hoping that you can help a Presbybro I'm hoping that you can help a Presbybro I'm hoping that you can help a Presbybro out. out. out. Right? Matthew 28 says, "And Jesus came Right? Matthew 28 says, "And Jesus came Right? Matthew 28 says, "And Jesus came and said to the disciples, 'All what?'" and said to the disciples, 'All what?'" and said to the disciples, 'All what?'" Authority. Okay, so the Baptists are Authority. Okay, so the Baptists are Authority. Okay, so the Baptists are sitting over here, cool. sitting over here, cool. sitting over here, cool. "All authority in heaven and earth has "All authority in heaven and earth has "All authority in heaven and earth has been given to me. Go therefore and make been given to me. Go therefore and make been given to me. Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them disciples of all nations, baptizing them disciples of all nations, baptizing them in what?" in what?" in what?" "The name of the Father and of the Son "The name of the Father and of the Son "The name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Holy Spirit, and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have teaching them to observe all that I have teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am up here commanded you. And behold, I am up here commanded you. And behold, I am up here if you need me." if you need me." if you need me." Wait. Sorry, that's the Wait. Sorry, that's the Wait. Sorry, that's the that's the wrong translation. that's the wrong translation. that's the wrong translation. It says, "And behold, It says, "And behold, It says, "And behold, I am with you I am with you I am with you always always always to the end of the age." with Christ's presence with Christ's presence bookending the name of the Father and of bookending the name of the Father and of bookending the name of the Father and of the Son and the Holy Spirit.

Y'all, God didn't just give the Great Y'all, God didn't just give the Great Commission ex nihilo, but if he did, he Commission ex nihilo, but if he did, he Commission ex nihilo, but if he did, he has the right and could do that. has the right and could do that. has the right and could do that. He didn't pull it from thin air. The He didn't pull it from thin air. The He didn't pull it from thin air. The Great Commission is the true and better, Great Commission is the true and better, Great Commission is the true and better, the new ironic blessing. the new ironic blessing. the new ironic blessing. It is where the great nation and people It is where the great nation and people It is where the great nation and people and the great name that God promised and the great name that God promised and the great name that God promised Abraham is fully and finally fulfilled. Abraham is fully and finally fulfilled. Abraham is fully and finally fulfilled. And yes, And yes, And yes, if you're Baptist and you're worried, if you're Baptist and you're worried, if you're Baptist and you're worried, don't worry. don't worry. don't worry. Jesus is absolutely exhorting his Jesus is absolutely exhorting his Jesus is absolutely exhorting his followers to give a reason for the hope followers to give a reason for the hope followers to give a reason for the hope that is within us. that is within us. that is within us. But he's also telling us that church is But he's also telling us that church is But he's also telling us that church is how we get that hope into us how we get that hope into us how we get that hope into us in the first place. in the first place. in the first place. In other words, In other words, In other words, to know the bride to know the bride to know the bride is to know the groom. is to know the groom. is to know the groom. To know the church To know the church To know the church is to know her savior. is to know her savior. is to know her savior. And vice versa. If the body of Christ, friends, if the If the body of Christ, friends, if the body of Christ is just body of Christ is just body of Christ is just a a nice spiritual metaphor to a a nice spiritual metaphor to a a nice spiritual metaphor to rationalize our spiritual gifts rationalize our spiritual gifts rationalize our spiritual gifts assessments assessments assessments and not also a material reality, then we and not also a material reality, then we and not also a material reality, then we will live like amputated limbs and will live like amputated limbs and will live like amputated limbs and wonder why we keep bleeding out.

wonder why we keep bleeding out. wonder why we keep bleeding out. We will settle for an individual We will settle for an individual We will settle for an individual identity when we are promised the name identity when we are promised the name identity when we are promised the name above all names in Christ. But it's also not just about us anymore But it's also not just about us anymore than it was just about Abraham because than it was just about Abraham because than it was just about Abraham because the purpose of God's blessing was the purpose of God's blessing was the purpose of God's blessing was ultimately to bless the nations. ultimately to bless the nations. ultimately to bless the nations. And if Paul says in Ephesians 3 that it And if Paul says in Ephesians 3 that it And if Paul says in Ephesians 3 that it is through the church that the manifold is through the church that the manifold is through the church that the manifold wisdom of God will be made known, then wisdom of God will be made known, then wisdom of God will be made known, then it is especially it is especially it is especially for our neighbors and the nations and for our neighbors and the nations and for our neighbors and the nations and Gen Z that we must recover the true, Gen Z that we must recover the true, Gen Z that we must recover the true, good, and beautiful reasons for church. good, and beautiful reasons for church. good, and beautiful reasons for church. I love how much we did not plan our I love how much we did not plan our I love how much we did not plan our talks together, but we're all talking talks together, but we're all talking talks together, but we're all talking about the same theme because I'm about the same theme because I'm about the same theme because I'm convinced that Mark Sayers is right when convinced that Mark Sayers is right when convinced that Mark Sayers is right when he says that crises precedes renewal. he says that crises precedes renewal. he says that crises precedes renewal. And the remnant is ripe for revival. And the remnant is ripe for revival. And the remnant is ripe for revival. So ask yourself, So ask yourself, So ask yourself, it's a crazy idea, what if it's a crazy idea, what if it's a crazy idea, what if what if God is allowing our modern what if God is allowing our modern what if God is allowing our modern towers of Babel to collapse under their towers of Babel to collapse under their towers of Babel to collapse under their own weight and for the same reason that own weight and for the same reason that own weight and for the same reason that he scattered the builders in Genesis 11?

he scattered the builders in Genesis 11? he scattered the builders in Genesis 11? If God Right, if God used Egyptian If God Right, if God used Egyptian If God Right, if God used Egyptian slavery to birth a great nation with a slavery to birth a great nation with a slavery to birth a great nation with a great name, how could he not use all of great name, how could he not use all of great name, how could he not use all of our social, cultural, and political our social, cultural, and political our social, cultural, and political crises to incubate crises to incubate crises to incubate a multi-generational re-churching even a multi-generational re-churching even a multi-generational re-churching even greater than our de-churching? How then do we cooperate with the Holy How then do we cooperate with the Holy Spirit? Spirit? Spirit? How do we faithfully contribute to this How do we faithfully contribute to this How do we faithfully contribute to this revival? How do we put ourselves on the revival? How do we put ourselves on the revival? How do we put ourselves on the highway of gospel renewal? highway of gospel renewal? highway of gospel renewal? I have a crazy idea for you. Trust Trust in mercy. Confess and repent of sin. Confess and repent of sin. Go back to church. Go back to church. Go back to church. Build institutions instead of build Build institutions instead of build Build institutions instead of build burning them down. burning them down. burning them down. Love one another with brotherly Love one another with brotherly Love one another with brotherly affection and forgive one another as affection and forgive one another as affection and forgive one another as Christ has forgiven you. Christ has forgiven you. Christ has forgiven you. Keep going back to church every Sunday, Keep going back to church every Sunday, Keep going back to church every Sunday, not just one or two Sundays a month.

not just one or two Sundays a month. not just one or two Sundays a month. Not even just three out of four Sundays Not even just three out of four Sundays Not even just three out of four Sundays a month, though I'm sure your pastor a month, though I'm sure your pastor a month, though I'm sure your pastor will be very grateful. Can I get an amen will be very grateful. Can I get an amen will be very grateful. Can I get an amen from the pastors in the room? from the pastors in the room? from the pastors in the room? Okay? Okay? Okay? If your life If you want your life to If your life If you want your life to If your life If you want your life to orbit around the groom and your life orbit around the groom and your life orbit around the groom and your life does not orbit around the bride, how does not orbit around the bride, how does not orbit around the bride, how much time will you end up spending with much time will you end up spending with much time will you end up spending with the groom? Lastly, invite your neighbor to church. Lastly, invite your neighbor to church. If for no other reason than because If for no other reason than because If for no other reason than because Jesus wouldn't be caught dead or alive Jesus wouldn't be caught dead or alive Jesus wouldn't be caught dead or alive anywhere else. anywhere else. anywhere else. That alone is reason enough for church. That alone is reason enough for church. That alone is reason enough for church. And so I'll end with this. And so I'll end with this. And so I'll end with this. Um and especially because we've been all Um and especially because we've been all Um and especially because we've been all sitting for about an hour, I would sitting for about an hour, I would sitting for about an hour, I would actually invite you to stand because I actually invite you to stand because I actually invite you to stand because I want us to actually do the thing that want us to actually do the thing that want us to actually do the thing that I'm talking about. I'm talking about. I'm talking about. And I encourage our people at the table And I encourage our people at the table And I encourage our people at the table to hold out their hands because in in a to hold out their hands because in in a to hold out their hands because in in a physical, material way to receive physical, material way to receive physical, material way to receive what God has said is true of his people. May the Lord bless you May the Lord bless you and keep you.

and keep you. and keep you. May the Lord make his face to shine upon May the Lord make his face to shine upon May the Lord make his face to shine upon you you you and be gracious to you. and be gracious to you. and be gracious to you. May the Lord lift up his countenance May the Lord lift up his countenance May the Lord lift up his countenance upon you and give you peace. upon you and give you peace. upon you and give you peace. Amen. Amen. Amen. You can be seated. Thank you. Well, thank you each of you for those Well, thank you each of you for those um um um yeah, really helpful, convicting, yeah, really helpful, convicting, yeah, really helpful, convicting, uh sobering talks, but hopeful talks. uh sobering talks, but hopeful talks. uh sobering talks, but hopeful talks. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Um Jared, I'm going to start with you. I Um Jared, I'm going to start with you. I Um Jared, I'm going to start with you. I have a couple questions for each of you. have a couple questions for each of you. have a couple questions for each of you. The The The phrase that stuck with me The The The phrase that stuck with me The The The phrase that stuck with me from your talk is is gospel wallpaper. from your talk is is gospel wallpaper. from your talk is is gospel wallpaper. Like you're making the point about Like you're making the point about Like you're making the point about Carson's famous thing about the first Carson's famous thing about the first Carson's famous thing about the first generation, you know, cherish cherishes generation, you know, cherish cherishes generation, you know, cherish cherishes the gospel, the second generation the gospel, the second generation the gospel, the second generation assumes it. And you're claiming making assumes it. And you're claiming making assumes it. And you're claiming making the claim that you think in the gospel the claim that you think in the gospel the claim that you think in the gospel centrality movement centrality movement centrality movement we are at the point of kind of the we are at the point of kind of the we are at the point of kind of the generation of assumption maybe where the generation of assumption maybe where the generation of assumption maybe where the gospel is kind of this wallpaper, but we gospel is kind of this wallpaper, but we gospel is kind of this wallpaper, but we couldn't really define it if pressed. I couldn't really define it if pressed. I couldn't really define it if pressed. I think you're right. As someone who works think you're right. As someone who works think you're right. As someone who works for the Gospel Coalition, who's tracked for the Gospel Coalition, who's tracked for the Gospel Coalition, who's tracked with all this very closely, I do think with all this very closely, I do think with all this very closely, I do think you're right about that. My question is, you're right about that. My question is, you're right about that. My question is, what do you suggest we do about that what do you suggest we do about that what do you suggest we do about that practically? Like if we are at a place practically? Like if we are at a place practically? Like if we are at a place where we need to kind of re-teach the where we need to kind of re-teach the where we need to kind of re-teach the gospel, re-center gospel, re-center gospel, re-center on the gospel to help this generation of on the gospel to help this generation of on the gospel to help this generation of assumption really get it and really assumption really get it and really assumption really get it and really cherish it, what do we do? What are some

cherish it, what do we do? What are some cherish it, what do we do? What are some like practical ideas? And the whole premise of And the whole premise of Well, not the whole premise. The premise Well, not the whole premise. The premise Well, not the whole premise. The premise of gospel centrality is is partly based of gospel centrality is is partly based of gospel centrality is is partly based on the concept that we have a on the concept that we have a on the concept that we have a forgetfulness. forgetfulness. forgetfulness. Um even that, you know, 1 Corinthians Um even that, you know, 1 Corinthians Um even that, you know, 1 Corinthians 15, 15, 15, you know, Paul begins, "Now I would you know, Paul begins, "Now I would you know, Paul begins, "Now I would remind you remind you remind you brothers of this gospel that I preached brothers of this gospel that I preached brothers of this gospel that I preached to you, which you received." to you, which you received." to you, which you received." The um The um The um so the premise is that we don't wake up so the premise is that we don't wake up so the premise is that we don't wake up with with an orientation around the with with an orientation around the with with an orientation around the finished work of Christ. finished work of Christ. finished work of Christ. So we need a constant resetting So we need a constant resetting So we need a constant resetting on the finished work of Christ. And on the finished work of Christ. And on the finished work of Christ. And there is no, I don't think, innovative there is no, I don't think, innovative there is no, I don't think, innovative outside-the-box outside-the-box outside-the-box antidote to that. It's at the point of antidote to that. It's at the point of antidote to that. It's at the point of pulpit preaching, pulpit preaching, pulpit preaching, personal discipleship, personal discipleship, personal discipleship, and then just in my own fellowship of and then just in my own fellowship of and then just in my own fellowship of Christ, Christ, Christ, but helping each other, being able to to but helping each other, being able to to but helping each other, being able to to reset each other to reset each other to reset each other to um you know, to speak the good news to um you know, to speak the good news to um you know, to speak the good news to each other each other each other um in in um um in in um um in in um in life together in life together in life together Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, "We meet each Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, "We meet each Dietrich Bonhoeffer says, "We meet each other as bringers of the gospel." Like other as bringers of the gospel." Like other as bringers of the gospel." Like this is the point this is the point this is the point of the community of Christ. We meet each of the community of Christ. We meet each of the community of Christ. We meet each other as heralds of the good news.

other as heralds of the good news. other as heralds of the good news. And he says something that um And he says something that um And he says something that um it sounds like it doesn't make sense, it sounds like it doesn't make sense, it sounds like it doesn't make sense, but it makes sense spiritually. He says but it makes sense spiritually. He says but it makes sense spiritually. He says the gospel in me is stronger than the the gospel in me is stronger than the the gospel in me is stronger than the gospel in my brother. gospel in my brother. gospel in my brother. And the gospel in my brother is stronger And the gospel in my brother is stronger And the gospel in my brother is stronger than the gospel in me. than the gospel in me. than the gospel in me. Which, you know, is paradoxical. Which, you know, is paradoxical. Which, you know, is paradoxical. Um but it's because the it's news. It's Um but it's because the it's news. It's Um but it's because the it's news. It's meant to be meant to be meant to be shared. So, shared. So, shared. So, I mean practically I mean practically I mean practically it I mean it looks as basic as it I mean it looks as basic as it I mean it looks as basic as rehearsing for me those three principles rehearsing for me those three principles rehearsing for me those three principles with my students, with my ministry with my students, with my ministry with my students, with my ministry residents, residents, residents, with my congregation as as often as I with my congregation as as often as I with my congregation as as often as I can so that uh you know, which doesn't can so that uh you know, which doesn't can so that uh you know, which doesn't prevent those things themselves from prevent those things themselves from prevent those things themselves from becoming wrote, right? This is a this is becoming wrote, right? This is a this is becoming wrote, right? This is a this is a spiritual enterprise that we're in. a spiritual enterprise that we're in. a spiritual enterprise that we're in. But it at least is giving them But it at least is giving them But it at least is giving them a substance to this thing that it's not a substance to this thing that it's not a substance to this thing that it's not just just just the adjective on the website. It's not the adjective on the website. It's not the adjective on the website. It's not just the wallpaper. This this is sort of just the wallpaper. This this is sort of just the wallpaper. This this is sort of the working the working the working um um um you know, the working uh you know, the working uh you know, the working uh you know, framework of our of our you know, framework of our of our you know, framework of our of our church. Yeah.

church. Yeah. church. Yeah. I think one of the ways maybe practical I think one of the ways maybe practical I think one of the ways maybe practical thing is just thing is just thing is just kind of re-teaching the the history and kind of re-teaching the the history and kind of re-teaching the the history and the kind of the kind of the kind of to move to you Gavin just like the the to move to you Gavin just like the the to move to you Gavin just like the the assumption of the gospel sometimes goes assumption of the gospel sometimes goes assumption of the gospel sometimes goes hand in hand with an assumption of hand in hand with an assumption of hand in hand with an assumption of confessionalism and just the basics of confessionalism and just the basics of confessionalism and just the basics of our faith that we don't we never our faith that we don't we never our faith that we don't we never learned. And and maybe kind of learned. And and maybe kind of learned. And and maybe kind of re-teaching that history a bit and how re-teaching that history a bit and how re-teaching that history a bit and how these these like tenets of faith, the these these like tenets of faith, the these these like tenets of faith, the doctrines of grace, etc. were doctrines of grace, etc. were doctrines of grace, etc. were formulated. Um Gavin, I want to go back formulated. Um Gavin, I want to go back formulated. Um Gavin, I want to go back to the 22-year-old to the 22-year-old to the 22-year-old ecclesially angsty anxious ecclesially angsty anxious ecclesially angsty anxious um young man. Um cuz I know people like um young man. Um cuz I know people like um young man. Um cuz I know people like that. I think a lot of us know people that. I think a lot of us know people that. I think a lot of us know people like that. I think you're right that like that. I think you're right that like that. I think you're right that there's a hunger for depth. You're there's a hunger for depth. You're there's a hunger for depth. You're absolutely right that we sometimes absolutely right that we sometimes absolutely right that we sometimes pander to this generation thinking they pander to this generation thinking they pander to this generation thinking they don't want that, but they do. But in my don't want that, but they do. But in my don't want that, but they do. But in my experience when when they're looking for experience when when they're looking for experience when when they're looking for a depth, it usually is because they're a depth, it usually is because they're a depth, it usually is because they're not finding it in Protestantism, but not finding it in Protestantism, but not finding it in Protestantism, but they do think that like Roman they do think that like Roman they do think that like Roman Catholicism has deeper history, deeper Catholicism has deeper history, deeper Catholicism has deeper history, deeper philoso- the philosophical tradition, philoso- the philosophical tradition, philoso- the philosophical tradition, the aesthetic tradition. I care a lot the aesthetic tradition. I care a lot the aesthetic tradition. I care a lot about arts and what I've seen I've seen about arts and what I've seen I've seen about arts and what I've seen I've seen people literally leave evangelical people literally leave evangelical people literally leave evangelical Protestantism because it's just not with Protestantism because it's just not with Protestantism because it's just not with they don't care about beauty. There's no they don't care about beauty. There's no they don't care about beauty. There's no tradition of art. Catholicism cares tradition of art. Catholicism cares tradition of art. Catholicism cares about that. Eastern Orthodoxy cares about that. Eastern Orthodoxy cares about that. Eastern Orthodoxy cares about it. So, if they're longing for about it. So, if they're longing for about it. So, if they're longing for depth, like how do you respond in terms depth, like how do you respond in terms depth, like how do you respond in terms of like, "We have depth in of like, "We have depth in of like, "We have depth in Protestantism." What would you say?

Protestantism." What would you say? Protestantism." What would you say? Okay, so Okay, so Okay, so um um um starting with two things that are sort starting with two things that are sort starting with two things that are sort sort of in tension with each other. sort of in tension with each other. sort of in tension with each other. First, I don't want to assume that this First, I don't want to assume that this First, I don't want to assume that this person understands the gospel. Uh I do person understands the gospel. Uh I do person understands the gospel. Uh I do have a lot of these conversations and have a lot of these conversations and have a lot of these conversations and I've just found that across the board I've just found that across the board I've just found that across the board even in baptism even in baptism even in baptism interviews, I have found that I need to interviews, I have found that I need to interviews, I have found that I need to begin with just an open heart to just begin with just an open heart to just begin with just an open heart to just ask, "Where are you coming from?" You ask, "Where are you coming from?" You ask, "Where are you coming from?" You know? Um and so so I don't want to know? Um and so so I don't want to know? Um and so so I don't want to assume that. Uh and I do think that at assume that. Uh and I do think that at assume that. Uh and I do think that at play is is a probably a gospel need play is is a probably a gospel need play is is a probably a gospel need where ultimately it is the work of Jesus where ultimately it is the work of Jesus where ultimately it is the work of Jesus himself that's going to touch what's himself that's going to touch what's himself that's going to touch what's going on. going on. going on. And then the second side of that though And then the second side of that though And then the second side of that though is I don't want to be wrote or is I don't want to be wrote or is I don't want to be wrote or formulaic. formulaic. formulaic. And I want to take their specific And I want to take their specific And I want to take their specific concerns really seriously. concerns really seriously. concerns really seriously. And all the normal rules about not you And all the normal rules about not you And all the normal rules about not you know, it's better if your friend has a know, it's better if your friend has a know, it's better if your friend has a doubt or a question, it's better to say doubt or a question, it's better to say doubt or a question, it's better to say I don't know than to give a bad answer. I don't know than to give a bad answer. I don't know than to give a bad answer. Okay? This happens so much Okay? This happens so much Okay? This happens so much you know, if someone is teaching Sunday you know, if someone is teaching Sunday you know, if someone is teaching Sunday school and a question comes up that the school and a question comes up that the school and a question comes up that the teacher does not know the answer to.

teacher does not know the answer to. teacher does not know the answer to. And the great thing you can just do is And the great thing you can just do is And the great thing you can just do is say, "I am not sure that is such a good say, "I am not sure that is such a good say, "I am not sure that is such a good question. Let me look into it." Uh and question. Let me look into it." Uh and question. Let me look into it." Uh and and in fact, let's study it together. Um and in fact, let's study it together. Um and in fact, let's study it together. Um but sometimes uh you might feel but sometimes uh you might feel but sometimes uh you might feel embarrassed by not knowing the answer. embarrassed by not knowing the answer. embarrassed by not knowing the answer. And so actually one of the things that And so actually one of the things that And so actually one of the things that happens is you can actually happens is you can actually happens is you can actually sort of clamp down on the person asking sort of clamp down on the person asking sort of clamp down on the person asking the question. And this really damages the question. And this really damages the question. And this really damages people. people. people. So, all of those rules are in in play So, all of those rules are in in play So, all of those rules are in in play here. We want to really honor the here. We want to really honor the here. We want to really honor the questions and look into them. And if we questions and look into them. And if we questions and look into them. And if we don't know the answer, that's okay. One don't know the answer, that's okay. One don't know the answer, that's okay. One of the reasons I put out videos is to of the reasons I put out videos is to of the reasons I put out videos is to try to serve pastors. If there's try to serve pastors. If there's try to serve pastors. If there's something really technical and specific something really technical and specific something really technical and specific about church history or whatever that about church history or whatever that about church history or whatever that could be a resource to people. Um could be a resource to people. Um could be a resource to people. Um but ultimately I what I want to take but ultimately I what I want to take but ultimately I what I want to take someone to is to try to help them someone to is to try to help them someone to is to try to help them experience and not just tell them this, experience and not just tell them this, experience and not just tell them this, but experience the depth that is within but experience the depth that is within but experience the depth that is within Protestantism. Protestantism. Protestantism. And Jared mentioned the phrase always And Jared mentioned the phrase always And Jared mentioned the phrase always reforming at the very beginning of our reforming at the very beginning of our reforming at the very beginning of our night. night. night. Many contemporary Protestant churches Many contemporary Protestant churches Many contemporary Protestant churches need further reform in this area.

need further reform in this area. need further reform in this area. Uh I believe it can look different in Uh I believe it can look different in Uh I believe it can look different in different churches, but I think the different churches, but I think the different churches, but I think the beauty that you just mentioned beauty that you just mentioned beauty that you just mentioned that it's not actually a historic that it's not actually a historic that it's not actually a historic characteristic of Protestantism that we characteristic of Protestantism that we characteristic of Protestantism that we lack beauty. lack beauty. lack beauty. That's a more recent phenomenon. That's a more recent phenomenon. That's a more recent phenomenon. And so that's an area that we can And so that's an area that we can And so that's an area that we can consider. consider. consider. Where does our worship practice need to Where does our worship practice need to Where does our worship practice need to reform? And I the great encouragement I reform? And I the great encouragement I reform? And I the great encouragement I love to give to people is to see how love to give to people is to see how love to give to people is to see how much uh richness there is in the much uh richness there is in the much uh richness there is in the different Protestant traditions. different Protestant traditions. different Protestant traditions. And so for so many people it becomes a And so for so many people it becomes a And so for so many people it becomes a battle of the church fathers battle of the church fathers battle of the church fathers versus my anecdotal church experience in versus my anecdotal church experience in versus my anecdotal church experience in this particular evangelical church. And this particular evangelical church. And this particular evangelical church. And that's the battle. that's the battle. that's the battle. And what I think we want to do is And what I think we want to do is And what I think we want to do is encourage people to look into the depths encourage people to look into the depths encourage people to look into the depths of Protestantism. It is tremendously of Protestantism. It is tremendously of Protestantism. It is tremendously beautiful. It it is beautiful. It it is beautiful. It it is it is second to none in these it is second to none in these it is second to none in these comparisons. And uh so that's what a lot comparisons. And uh so that's what a lot comparisons. And uh so that's what a lot of my ministry on YouTube is trying to of my ministry on YouTube is trying to of my ministry on YouTube is trying to do. do. do. Good. Good. Good. Brad, uh early in your book which you Brad, uh early in your book which you Brad, uh early in your book which you describe your book as a cultural describe your book as a cultural describe your book as a cultural apologetic for the institutional church, apologetic for the institutional church, apologetic for the institutional church, which I think is a really great which I think is a really great which I think is a really great descriptor of the book. And you say descriptor of the book. And you say descriptor of the book. And you say this, "Christians are relatively well this, "Christians are relatively well this, "Christians are relatively well equipped for a post-Christian world."

equipped for a post-Christian world." equipped for a post-Christian world." Post-Christian world, we're well Post-Christian world, we're well Post-Christian world, we're well equipped for that that objects to the equipped for that that objects to the equipped for that that objects to the existence of God. But we are wholly existence of God. But we are wholly existence of God. But we are wholly unequipped for a post-institutional unequipped for a post-institutional unequipped for a post-institutional world that rejects any need for church. world that rejects any need for church. world that rejects any need for church. And I think that's true. So, what would And I think that's true. So, what would And I think that's true. So, what would you do similar like hypothetical you do similar like hypothetical you do similar like hypothetical 20-something comes up and and gives you 20-something comes up and and gives you 20-something comes up and and gives you the line like, "I love Jesus, but I the line like, "I love Jesus, but I the line like, "I love Jesus, but I don't love the church and I don't want don't love the church and I don't want don't love the church and I don't want to have anything to do with the church." to have anything to do with the church." to have anything to do with the church." Um what what's your what's your first Um what what's your what's your first Um what what's your what's your first kind of response aside from read my kind of response aside from read my kind of response aside from read my book? book? book? Which which is maybe the second thing, Which which is maybe the second thing, Which which is maybe the second thing, but how do you begin that response? but how do you begin that response? but how do you begin that response? Well, since it only released yesterday, Well, since it only released yesterday, Well, since it only released yesterday, I haven't had an opportunity to say it I haven't had an opportunity to say it I haven't had an opportunity to say it yet. So, we'll see. But um yet. So, we'll see. But um yet. So, we'll see. But um no, I think and I was kind of alluding no, I think and I was kind of alluding no, I think and I was kind of alluding to this in the talk, but I think to this in the talk, but I think to this in the talk, but I think especially if they especially if they especially if they uh claim Christ already and they want to uh claim Christ already and they want to uh claim Christ already and they want to know Jesus and to know Jesus and to know Jesus and to be in have a deeper communion with him. be in have a deeper communion with him. be in have a deeper communion with him. Part of what I try to explain is is the Part of what I try to explain is is the Part of what I try to explain is is the the bride and groom metaphor. And and the bride and groom metaphor. And and the bride and groom metaphor. And and I'll I'll say something along the lines I'll I'll say something along the lines I'll I'll say something along the lines of like, you know, "Hey, of like, you know, "Hey, of like, you know, "Hey, just want to let you know that like hey, just want to let you know that like hey, just want to let you know that like hey, if you want to grab a coffee or or a if you want to grab a coffee or or a if you want to grab a coffee or or a beer with me and if you gave me a call beer with me and if you gave me a call beer with me and if you gave me a call and you were like, 'Hey Brad, can we and you were like, 'Hey Brad, can we and you were like, 'Hey Brad, can we hang out?' I'd love to like just like hang out?' I'd love to like just like hang out?' I'd love to like just like get to know you better and what have get to know you better and what have get to know you better and what have you, but can you let me know when your you, but can you let me know when your you, but can you let me know when your wife Hannah isn't around?"

wife Hannah isn't around?" wife Hannah isn't around?" Um cuz she's just she's just really I Um cuz she's just she's just really I Um cuz she's just she's just really I think she's probably harmful and is just think she's probably harmful and is just think she's probably harmful and is just really triggering for me. Um really triggering for me. Um really triggering for me. Um you know, you know, you know, Jesus is a much better man than I am. Jesus is a much better man than I am. Jesus is a much better man than I am. And just in case you were concerned. Uh And just in case you were concerned. Uh And just in case you were concerned. Uh but but but and I might like still grab a beer with and I might like still grab a beer with and I might like still grab a beer with you, but if you're not willing to hang you, but if you're not willing to hang you, but if you're not willing to hang out with my family out with my family out with my family and the ones that I love, we're probably and the ones that I love, we're probably and the ones that I love, we're probably going to spend a whole lot less time going to spend a whole lot less time going to spend a whole lot less time with each other with each other with each other at best. And I don't know that you can at best. And I don't know that you can at best. And I don't know that you can understand and I'm not I would actually understand and I'm not I would actually understand and I'm not I would actually be I would be gently be I would be gently be I would be gently um with all of the the nuance that Gavin um with all of the the nuance that Gavin um with all of the the nuance that Gavin very pastorally just described, but I very pastorally just described, but I very pastorally just described, but I would be asking them encouraging like, would be asking them encouraging like, would be asking them encouraging like, "Do you Do you actually know "Do you Do you actually know "Do you Do you actually know how loving Jesus is if you can't even how loving Jesus is if you can't even how loving Jesus is if you can't even see his bride through his eyes?" "Do you know the love of Christ if you "Do you know the love of Christ if you can't even find yourself among his can't even find yourself among his can't even find yourself among his broken and beloved?"

broken and beloved?" broken and beloved?" That for a Christian is normally very That for a Christian is normally very That for a Christian is normally very helpful, I think. And it it it starts helpful, I think. And it it it starts helpful, I think. And it it it starts prompting all kinds of other questions prompting all kinds of other questions prompting all kinds of other questions of like, "Yeah, but what about this?" of like, "Yeah, but what about this?" of like, "Yeah, but what about this?" It's like, "Okay, well, let's keep It's like, "Okay, well, let's keep It's like, "Okay, well, let's keep talking about that." But at least it talking about that." But at least it talking about that." But at least it really helps kind of get through get really helps kind of get through get really helps kind of get through get past that first hurdle. Gavin, on the on the local church side Gavin, on the on the local church side of the the Catholic Protestant thing, I of the the Catholic Protestant thing, I of the the Catholic Protestant thing, I I hear a lot of Protestants tempted by I hear a lot of Protestants tempted by I hear a lot of Protestants tempted by Catholicism. They'll they'll say Catholicism. They'll they'll say Catholicism. They'll they'll say something like, "Protestant churches are something like, "Protestant churches are something like, "Protestant churches are just a mess. Like they're just dividing just a mess. Like they're just dividing just a mess. Like they're just dividing constantly. There's a million constantly. There's a million constantly. There's a million denominations. There's no unity. It's denominations. There's no unity. It's denominations. There's no unity. It's totally incoherent." If if they're totally incoherent." If if they're totally incoherent." If if they're hungry for a robust institution, if hungry for a robust institution, if hungry for a robust institution, if they're going against the grain of what they're going against the grain of what they're going against the grain of what you're saying, if they actually want you're saying, if they actually want you're saying, if they actually want that, if they want a robust church that, if they want a robust church that, if they want a robust church institution, they they say the Roman institution, they they say the Roman institution, they they say the Roman Catholic Church offers that. The Eastern Catholic Church offers that. The Eastern Catholic Church offers that. The Eastern Orthodox Church offers that. What's your Orthodox Church offers that. What's your Orthodox Church offers that. What's your typical response to that kind of typical response to that kind of typical response to that kind of comparison of just the church chaos that comparison of just the church chaos that comparison of just the church chaos that people perceive people perceive people perceive in Protestantism. in Protestantism. in Protestantism. Often on this concern, I find it helpful Often on this concern, I find it helpful Often on this concern, I find it helpful first of all to receive the concern and first of all to receive the concern and first of all to receive the concern and see, you know, what as Protestant see, you know, what as Protestant see, you know, what as Protestant Christians can we learn from this?

Christians can we learn from this? Christians can we learn from this? And then second to encourage a realism And then second to encourage a realism And then second to encourage a realism about what your actual experience is about what your actual experience is about what your actual experience is like uh like uh like uh in your local parish or congregation uh in your local parish or congregation uh in your local parish or congregation uh depending upon where you end up. Um depending upon where you end up. Um depending upon where you end up. Um sometimes sometimes sometimes uh we we look with rose-colored glasses uh we we look with rose-colored glasses uh we we look with rose-colored glasses at what is really a kind of maybe at what is really a kind of maybe at what is really a kind of maybe structural unity structural unity structural unity that uh is not always lived out at the that uh is not always lived out at the that uh is not always lived out at the street level. I also think just but but street level. I also think just but but street level. I also think just but but to maybe the point to emphasize here to maybe the point to emphasize here to maybe the point to emphasize here actually is the first of those two actually is the first of those two actually is the first of those two things I just mentioned that it is true things I just mentioned that it is true things I just mentioned that it is true that many of us that many of us that many of us fracture too easily. at a personal level fracture too easily. at a personal level fracture too easily. at a personal level at a at a at a ecclesial level ecclesial level ecclesial level I think there's I don't think it's good I think there's I don't think it's good I think there's I don't think it's good to rush past that. to rush past that. to rush past that. And so I want to sort of honor the And so I want to sort of honor the And so I want to sort of honor the concern in a sense even while I don't concern in a sense even while I don't concern in a sense even while I don't see that as a as a criticism that is see that as a as a criticism that is see that as a as a criticism that is inherent to Protestantism. I think inherent to Protestantism. I think inherent to Protestantism. I think that's something worth thinking about. that's something worth thinking about. that's something worth thinking about. Why does that happen? Why does that happen? Why does that happen? How might the insights that you're How might the insights that you're How might the insights that you're sharing with us about the importance of sharing with us about the importance of sharing with us about the importance of the church the way you just shared about the church the way you just shared about the church the way you just shared about the way Jesus loves the church.

the way Jesus loves the church. the way Jesus loves the church. If that is in our hearts we're going to If that is in our hearts we're going to If that is in our hearts we're going to uh uh uh maybe how to how to say we're not going maybe how to how to say we're not going maybe how to how to say we're not going to maybe leave a church as quickly we're to maybe leave a church as quickly we're to maybe leave a church as quickly we're not going to have the same spirit of not going to have the same spirit of not going to have the same spirit of contentiousness that sometimes is contentiousness that sometimes is contentiousness that sometimes is present in our local churches when we present in our local churches when we present in our local churches when we have a disagreement. have a disagreement. have a disagreement. It will flavor everything we do if if we It will flavor everything we do if if we It will flavor everything we do if if we love the church like that that will play love the church like that that will play love the church like that that will play out and it will play out in unity. out and it will play out in unity. out and it will play out in unity. And uh And uh And uh I just it's kind of simple but to put I just it's kind of simple but to put I just it's kind of simple but to put this simple point out that when Jesus this simple point out that when Jesus this simple point out that when Jesus prayed in John 17 prayed in John 17 prayed in John 17 uh uh uh what what was on his heart on his last what what was on his heart on his last what what was on his heart on his last night in this world was for unity and night in this world was for unity and night in this world was for unity and the purpose of that is so that the world the purpose of that is so that the world the purpose of that is so that the world will believe that you have sent me. And will believe that you have sent me. And will believe that you have sent me. And this is not a brilliant insight or this is not a brilliant insight or this is not a brilliant insight or something super complicated. something super complicated. something super complicated. But just to think about this that the But just to think about this that the But just to think about this that the actually actually actually how people see the gospel is affected by how people see the gospel is affected by how people see the gospel is affected by how we relate to other Christians. how we relate to other Christians. how we relate to other Christians. Not just how we treat Not just how we treat Not just how we treat non-Christians though that is important non-Christians though that is important non-Christians though that is important too but how we love each other in the too but how we love each other in the too but how we love each other in the body of Christ. And so body of Christ. And so body of Christ. And so in relation to this important question I in relation to this important question I in relation to this important question I think that's something that's really think that's something that's really think that's something that's really worth working through and not just worth working through and not just worth working through and not just deflecting it at a intellectual level deflecting it at a intellectual level deflecting it at a intellectual level but saying but saying but saying uh how do we do this? What does this uh how do we do this? What does this uh how do we do this? What does this look like?

Jared and Brad both have chapters in Jared and Brad both have chapters in their books on victimhood which I their books on victimhood which I their books on victimhood which I thought was interesting as I was reading thought was interesting as I was reading thought was interesting as I was reading all three of your books there was that all three of your books there was that all three of your books there was that commonality. You both had your chapter commonality. You both had your chapter commonality. You both had your chapter Jared is called less than conquerors Jared is called less than conquerors Jared is called less than conquerors which is a great title for a chapter on which is a great title for a chapter on which is a great title for a chapter on victimhood and yours is called virtuous victimhood and yours is called virtuous victimhood and yours is called virtuous victimhood. So maybe each of you speak victimhood. So maybe each of you speak victimhood. So maybe each of you speak to like where you see that in the church to like where you see that in the church to like where you see that in the church in the local church. How does that show in the local church. How does that show in the local church. How does that show up? Why is it a problem? Why is it a up? Why is it a problem? Why is it a up? Why is it a problem? Why is it a challenge? challenge? challenge? That it? Hm. Hm. Maybe a harder Maybe a harder Maybe a harder question in some ways to question in some ways to question in some ways to or or or to ponder where we don't see it right to ponder where we don't see it right to ponder where we don't see it right because the because the because the um um um you could camp out as some do you could camp out as some do you could camp out as some do on on on the the the fixation in the in the fixation in the in the fixation in the in the so-called social justice conversation on so-called social justice conversation on so-called social justice conversation on um um um the oppressed oppressor paradigm right the oppressed oppressor paradigm right the oppressed oppressor paradigm right to see everything through that lens sort to see everything through that lens sort to see everything through that lens sort of the critical theory.

of the critical theory. of the critical theory. You can camp out there I think we see it You can camp out there I think we see it You can camp out there I think we see it there where victimhood becomes my there where victimhood becomes my there where victimhood becomes my identity identity identity and I just see everything through that and I just see everything through that and I just see everything through that lens I'm an oppressed class and everyone lens I'm an oppressed class and everyone lens I'm an oppressed class and everyone else is either either an ally or they're else is either either an ally or they're else is either either an ally or they're an oppressor. an oppressor. an oppressor. You could see it and I think in this the You could see it and I think in this the You could see it and I think in this the same same same or similar vocabulary or similar vocabulary or similar vocabulary on the other side of the conversation. on the other side of the conversation. on the other side of the conversation. Hey we're really the ones that are Hey we're really the ones that are Hey we're really the ones that are actually on the wrong end of this. actually on the wrong end of this. actually on the wrong end of this. They're coming after you I'm just in the They're coming after you I'm just in the They're coming after you I'm just in the way you know all that whole way you know all that whole way you know all that whole across the spectrum there is this across the spectrum there is this across the spectrum there is this temptation temptation temptation to adopt because it's powerful. to adopt because it's powerful. to adopt because it's powerful. It's powerful and I think across the It's powerful and I think across the It's powerful and I think across the spectrum politically culturally we spectrum politically culturally we spectrum politically culturally we understand that. I can understand that. I can understand that. I can I can either galvanize sympathy or I can I can either galvanize sympathy or I can I can either galvanize sympathy or I can galvanize momentum. I can identify I can galvanize momentum. I can identify I can galvanize momentum. I can identify I can get other people to see their victimhood get other people to see their victimhood get other people to see their victimhood and then we can coalesce and we can use and then we can coalesce and we can use and then we can coalesce and we can use our victimhood to now right? our victimhood to now right? our victimhood to now right? I think the I think the I think the to me that's not interesting like none to me that's not interesting like none to me that's not interesting like none of that's really interesting. I mean of that's really interesting. I mean of that's really interesting. I mean it's it's one of the easiest points to it's it's one of the easiest points to it's it's one of the easiest points to make I think. The interesting thing make I think. The interesting thing make I think. The interesting thing um um um about it I think about it I think about it I think is that it's not about denying the is that it's not about denying the is that it's not about denying the reality of victimization. This is what I reality of victimization. This is what I reality of victimization. This is what I try to do in my in my chapter. This is try to do in my in my chapter. This is try to do in my in my chapter. This is not to say oh no one's ever been not to say oh no one's ever been not to say oh no one's ever been oppressed in the his you know what I oppressed in the his you know what I oppressed in the his you know what I mean like just just get over it.

mean like just just get over it. mean like just just get over it. It's not to say that they're not coming It's not to say that they're not coming It's not to say that they're not coming after Christians that there's not a cult after Christians that there's not a cult after Christians that there's not a cult you know a bias in the west against you know a bias in the west against you know a bias in the west against Christians that we're being marginalized Christians that we're being marginalized Christians that we're being marginalized and increasingly you know and increasingly you know and increasingly you know harmed in cultural ways and and you know harmed in cultural ways and and you know harmed in cultural ways and and you know etc. etc. etc. You know that's a You know that's a You know that's a to deny that is is to deny what we see to deny that is is to deny what we see to deny that is is to deny what we see right in front of our face. right in front of our face. right in front of our face. The in the the interesting thing about The in the the interesting thing about The in the the interesting thing about it is not it is not it is not that we should you know deny the reality that we should you know deny the reality that we should you know deny the reality of injustice or what have you. It's the of injustice or what have you. It's the of injustice or what have you. It's the question of like what I'm going to question of like what I'm going to question of like what I'm going to orient my life around. What's going to orient my life around. What's going to orient my life around. What's going to define define define my identity and the Bible is replete my identity and the Bible is replete my identity and the Bible is replete with depictions of injustice and with depictions of injustice and with depictions of injustice and victimization victimization victimization and my and oppression and persecution. I and my and oppression and persecution. I and my and oppression and persecution. I mean it it it tells us the truth about mean it it it tells us the truth about mean it it it tells us the truth about what it is like to live in this broken what it is like to live in this broken what it is like to live in this broken world but it says um his grace is world but it says um his grace is world but it says um his grace is sufficient for you. It says even though sufficient for you. It says even though sufficient for you. It says even though we are like sheep being led to the we are like sheep being led to the we are like sheep being led to the slaughter we are more than conquerors slaughter we are more than conquerors slaughter we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. So it it it through him who loved us. So it it it through him who loved us. So it it it doesn't deny our victimhood or doesn't deny our victimhood or doesn't deny our victimhood or victimization what it denies or or victimization what it denies or or victimization what it denies or or forbids us is from using victimization forbids us is from using victimization forbids us is from using victimization as our identity.

as our identity. as our identity. And I think we're you know Brad can And I think we're you know Brad can And I think we're you know Brad can speak to this better than I can but the speak to this better than I can but the speak to this better than I can but the institutional piece is like the church institutional piece is like the church institutional piece is like the church hurt conversation. I read an article a hurt conversation. I read an article a hurt conversation. I read an article a couple of weeks ago about sort of the couple of weeks ago about sort of the couple of weeks ago about sort of the um the turmoil in a really high profile um the turmoil in a really high profile um the turmoil in a really high profile mega church American mega church and mega church American mega church and mega church American mega church and sort of the leadership transition and sort of the leadership transition and sort of the leadership transition and there was just a big crater that there was just a big crater that there was just a big crater that happened there and one guy who kind of happened there and one guy who kind of happened there and one guy who kind of was the successor was the successor was the successor um um um himself has left cuz there was all kinds himself has left cuz there was all kinds himself has left cuz there was all kinds of like toxic stuff going on behind the of like toxic stuff going on behind the of like toxic stuff going on behind the scenes and he said something that just scenes and he said something that just scenes and he said something that just jumped out at me as I read this article jumped out at me as I read this article jumped out at me as I read this article and his interview with him. He said and his interview with him. He said and his interview with him. He said um um um the church didn't hurt me five people the church didn't hurt me five people the church didn't hurt me five people hurt me. hurt me. hurt me. And I went And I went And I went So I mean what he could do is say I mean So I mean what he could do is say I mean So I mean what he could do is say I mean the church is just a place that you know the church is just a place that you know the church is just a place that you know what I mean. And I I bet if we went what I mean. And I I bet if we went what I mean. And I I bet if we went around the room we could have eight you around the room we could have eight you around the room we could have eight you know 700 stories in here about a time know 700 stories in here about a time know 700 stories in here about a time that you just felt really hurt that you just felt really hurt that you just felt really hurt in in church and what what I think the in in church and what what I think the in in church and what what I think the scriptures you know forbid us from doing scriptures you know forbid us from doing scriptures you know forbid us from doing is is is expanding that into a sense of identity expanding that into a sense of identity expanding that into a sense of identity projecting that onto the institutional projecting that onto the institutional projecting that onto the institutional picture of the church.

picture of the church. picture of the church. But I can so I can say okay I've got But I can so I can say okay I've got But I can so I can say okay I've got church hurt but church hurt but church hurt but all right it was these like I've been all right it was these like I've been all right it was these like I've been hurt by these four people and I'm not hurt by these four people and I'm not hurt by these four people and I'm not going to let that define my relationship going to let that define my relationship going to let that define my relationship with Christ's bride. Yeah. Yeah I I Yeah I I wanted to maybe even tie a little bit of wanted to maybe even tie a little bit of wanted to maybe even tie a little bit of that into the things that we've been that into the things that we've been that into the things that we've been talking about right the talking about right the talking about right the when institutions abuse power become when institutions abuse power become when institutions abuse power become corrupt corrupt corrupt more often than not it is because an more often than not it is because an more often than not it is because an individual is wielding power and not the individual is wielding power and not the individual is wielding power and not the institution. institution. institution. Right? And part of the you know the the Right? And part of the you know the the Right? And part of the you know the the virtuous victimhood stuff that I virtuous victimhood stuff that I virtuous victimhood stuff that I describe in my chapter and I've been describe in my chapter and I've been describe in my chapter and I've been able to read most of your chapter on able to read most of your chapter on able to read most of your chapter on this and this and this and we are coming from the same place for we are coming from the same place for we are coming from the same place for sure is that because of our abandoning sure is that because of our abandoning sure is that because of our abandoning of institutions we are abandoning the of institutions we are abandoning the of institutions we are abandoning the means of stewarding power in a way that means of stewarding power in a way that means of stewarding power in a way that flourishes individuals. flourishes individuals. flourishes individuals. And I am not the first to say that and And I am not the first to say that and And I am not the first to say that and you can talk look at Andy Crouch's book you can talk look at Andy Crouch's book you can talk look at Andy Crouch's book Playing God as well as Yuval Levin's Playing God as well as Yuval Levin's Playing God as well as Yuval Levin's any of his books or articles he's any of his books or articles he's any of his books or articles he's written. This is this is is out there written. This is this is is out there written. This is this is is out there right? But the results of all of this is right? But the results of all of this is right? But the results of all of this is that right compassion that right compassion that right compassion has is the last remaining source of has is the last remaining source of has is the last remaining source of moral authority we have in a moral authority we have in a moral authority we have in a post-Christian and post-institutional post-Christian and post-institutional post-Christian and post-institutional culture.

culture. culture. And it's the only way to get people to And it's the only way to get people to And it's the only way to get people to act in your interest to get people to act in your interest to get people to act in your interest to get people to see your plight to help you to help you see your plight to help you to help you see your plight to help you to help you heal. And so we're kind of using you heal. And so we're kind of using you heal. And so we're kind of using you know it's kind of like the you know the know it's kind of like the you know the know it's kind of like the you know the the if if if you're a hammer if all you the if if if you're a hammer if all you the if if if you're a hammer if all you have is a hammer everything's seen as a have is a hammer everything's seen as a have is a hammer everything's seen as a nail. nail. nail. It's the same dynamic. And what that It's the same dynamic. And what that It's the same dynamic. And what that does is it reduces compassion not to a does is it reduces compassion not to a does is it reduces compassion not to a um um um a glorious implication of the gospel a glorious implication of the gospel a glorious implication of the gospel it repurposes it as a means of gaining it repurposes it as a means of gaining it repurposes it as a means of gaining cultural power and social status. cultural power and social status. cultural power and social status. And the hard part especially for pastors And the hard part especially for pastors And the hard part especially for pastors is it is so hard to tell when that is is it is so hard to tell when that is is it is so hard to tell when that is happening versus no you we actually need happening versus no you we actually need happening versus no you we actually need to extend compassion. to extend compassion. to extend compassion. And so to make it easier pastors and And so to make it easier pastors and And so to make it easier pastors and leaders we often like are like well all leaders we often like are like well all leaders we often like are like well all compassion's bad or all compassion is compassion's bad or all compassion is compassion's bad or all compassion is unequivocally good. It's like no no no unequivocally good. It's like no no no unequivocally good. It's like no no no no no. We actually have to have an no no. We actually have to have an no no. We actually have to have an awareness of what's going on in this awareness of what's going on in this awareness of what's going on in this ecosystem because if we don't ecosystem because if we don't ecosystem because if we don't then actual victims will be obscured by then actual victims will be obscured by then actual victims will be obscured by this whole dynamic. this whole dynamic. this whole dynamic. And we won't actually have the And we won't actually have the And we won't actually have the opportunity to to help victims heal and opportunity to to help victims heal and opportunity to to help victims heal and not just heal not just heal not just heal but also recover their agency because but also recover their agency because but also recover their agency because part of the problem with this dynamic part of the problem with this dynamic part of the problem with this dynamic and the social incentives we have now is and the social incentives we have now is and the social incentives we have now is victims victims victims actual genuine victims actual genuine victims actual genuine victims are incentivized to stay in that place are incentivized to stay in that place are incentivized to stay in that place and not recover their agency and not recover their agency and not recover their agency to to actually heal because to do so to to actually heal because to do so to to actually heal because to do so would have to give up power and they would have to give up power and they would have to give up power and they already feel hurt and abused.

already feel hurt and abused. already feel hurt and abused. That is untenable and completely That is untenable and completely That is untenable and completely un-Christlike to put them in that un-Christlike to put them in that un-Christlike to put them in that situation. So part of I think what's situation. So part of I think what's situation. So part of I think what's important is to understand like well how important is to understand like well how important is to understand like well how are how are we being shaped by the this are how are we being shaped by the this are how are we being shaped by the this culture that we're living in that has culture that we're living in that has culture that we're living in that has primarily primarily primarily like like like resorting to this because resorting to this because resorting to this because we've abandoned the institutions that we've abandoned the institutions that we've abandoned the institutions that have historically stewarded that very have historically stewarded that very have historically stewarded that very well. In each of your talks there's you know In each of your talks there's you know challenges you bring up that are stark challenges you bring up that are stark challenges you bring up that are stark and sobering but you also kind of had and sobering but you also kind of had and sobering but you also kind of had hope for revival and and talked about hope for revival and and talked about hope for revival and and talked about that a bit. There's been discussion that that a bit. There's been discussion that that a bit. There's been discussion that the last six months about a vibe shift. the last six months about a vibe shift. the last six months about a vibe shift. I'm sure you guys have read articles and I'm sure you guys have read articles and I'm sure you guys have read articles and heard things about this. There's heard things about this. There's heard things about this. There's evidence that is mustered, you know, the evidence that is mustered, you know, the evidence that is mustered, you know, the nuns the rise of the nuns has leveled nuns the rise of the nuns has leveled nuns the rise of the nuns has leveled off in the US. off in the US. off in the US. Um in the UK there's been recent Um in the UK there's been recent Um in the UK there's been recent statistics that are quite encouraging statistics that are quite encouraging statistics that are quite encouraging with the returning to church of younger with the returning to church of younger with the returning to church of younger generations, Gen Z men in the states are generations, Gen Z men in the states are generations, Gen Z men in the states are coming back to church at higher rates.

coming back to church at higher rates. coming back to church at higher rates. Um where do you guys see that vibe Um where do you guys see that vibe Um where do you guys see that vibe shift? Do you think it's overplayed the shift? Do you think it's overplayed the shift? Do you think it's overplayed the discourse about that? Is it real? Where discourse about that? Is it real? Where discourse about that? Is it real? Where have you observed it? Maybe if in have you observed it? Maybe if in have you observed it? Maybe if in specific ways if you can think of any. specific ways if you can think of any. specific ways if you can think of any. We're seeing it in our church. I'm just We're seeing it in our church. I'm just We're seeing it in our church. I'm just anecdotally over the last say two or anecdotally over the last say two or anecdotally over the last say two or three years, maybe a little bit longer, three years, maybe a little bit longer, three years, maybe a little bit longer, but in the last two or three years we've but in the last two or three years we've but in the last two or three years we've had an influx of had an influx of had an influx of um teenagers and young adults. Uh we're um teenagers and young adults. Uh we're um teenagers and young adults. Uh we're not a big church, so I'm not talking not a big church, so I'm not talking not a big church, so I'm not talking like hundreds are showing up, but um like hundreds are showing up, but um like hundreds are showing up, but um significant for our you know for the significant for our you know for the significant for our you know for the size of our context. size of our context. size of our context. Um Um Um showing up with uh showing up with uh showing up with uh out of unchurched homes. out of unchurched homes. out of unchurched homes. Um typically invited by uh you know Um typically invited by uh you know Um typically invited by uh you know church member who works with them or church member who works with them or church member who works with them or goes to school with them. goes to school with them. goes to school with them. Um but we have um seen teenagers from Um but we have um seen teenagers from Um but we have um seen teenagers from unchurched homes uh coming. Um I was unchurched homes uh coming. Um I was unchurched homes uh coming. Um I was sharing with somebody earlier this sharing with somebody earlier this sharing with somebody earlier this morning in the last I don't know say morning in the last I don't know say morning in the last I don't know say four months or so we've had an um four months or so we've had an um four months or so we've had an um a noticeable this is um a noticeable this is um a noticeable this is um to me it's an exciting thing in to me it's an exciting thing in to me it's an exciting thing in ministry. We're seeing um young adults ministry. We're seeing um young adults ministry. We're seeing um young adults bringing their lost parents to church.

bringing their lost parents to church. bringing their lost parents to church. Uh right? I mean it's it's the normalest Uh right? I mean it's it's the normalest Uh right? I mean it's it's the normalest thing in the world for parents to drive thing in the world for parents to drive thing in the world for parents to drive their kids to church, but their kids to church, but their kids to church, but kids to be right? So we were we're kids to be right? So we were we're kids to be right? So we were we're seeing teenagers and college students seeing teenagers and college students seeing teenagers and college students um showing up at our church with these um showing up at our church with these um showing up at our church with these questions. Um what we you know we have a questions. Um what we you know we have a questions. Um what we you know we have a church member who church member who church member who uh works at um uh works at um uh works at um uh one of the fast food places. I think uh one of the fast food places. I think uh one of the fast food places. I think Chipotle. Um and like I mean one say he Chipotle. Um and like I mean one say he Chipotle. Um and like I mean one say he invited you know everyone on his shift. invited you know everyone on his shift. invited you know everyone on his shift. And what you know there's like six of And what you know there's like six of And what you know there's like six of his coworkers were with him and you know his coworkers were with him and you know his coworkers were with him and you know came to New Hope this week and they came to New Hope this week and they came to New Hope this week and they bring burritos, too? bring burritos, too? bring burritos, too? not bring burritos, no. not bring burritos, no. not bring burritos, no. Um Um Um So it's just things like that and then So it's just things like that and then So it's just things like that and then seeing you know seeing you know seeing you know that change. For our for our context that change. For our for our context that change. For our for our context that's a significant thing. So yeah, that's a significant thing. So yeah, that's a significant thing. So yeah, it's cool. it's cool. it's cool. Gavin or Brad do you guys see it? I I I Gavin or Brad do you guys see it? I I I Gavin or Brad do you guys see it? I I I I do see it. I I've kind of talked about I do see it. I I've kind of talked about I do see it. I I've kind of talked about this a little bit, but just uh this a little bit, but just uh this a little bit, but just uh especially some of the people that I try especially some of the people that I try especially some of the people that I try to serve, especially younger men that I to serve, especially younger men that I to serve, especially younger men that I my heart is drawn toward to try to be a my heart is drawn toward to try to be a my heart is drawn toward to try to be a friend to them, and I do sense a friend to them, and I do sense a friend to them, and I do sense a spiritual openness. I do sense it it spiritual openness. I do sense it it spiritual openness. I do sense it it feels as though 10 and 20 years ago feels as though 10 and 20 years ago feels as though 10 and 20 years ago there was more reaction against there was more reaction against there was more reaction against Christianity. And now there's just more Christianity. And now there's just more Christianity. And now there's just more ignorance uh of what the gospel message ignorance uh of what the gospel message ignorance uh of what the gospel message is.

is. is. And a lot more people have just grown up And a lot more people have just grown up And a lot more people have just grown up without ever hearing the gospel. And so without ever hearing the gospel. And so without ever hearing the gospel. And so they're not reacting against it. And they're not reacting against it. And they're not reacting against it. And therefore they are not as cynical. therefore they are not as cynical. therefore they are not as cynical. Uh and there's a refreshing openness Uh and there's a refreshing openness Uh and there's a refreshing openness that I it's just so fun to talk to to that I it's just so fun to talk to to that I it's just so fun to talk to to these young people and they're curious. these young people and they're curious. these young people and they're curious. Um and it's just it it really feels like Um and it's just it it really feels like Um and it's just it it really feels like a time for evangelism. a time for evangelism. a time for evangelism. As you as you see that openness. As you as you see that openness. As you as you see that openness. So I think the thing that's interesting So I think the thing that's interesting So I think the thing that's interesting about it is it does seem from what I about it is it does seem from what I about it is it does seem from what I understand that it's not just understand that it's not just understand that it's not just Christianity that is seeing an uptick of Christianity that is seeing an uptick of Christianity that is seeing an uptick of interest. It's kind of religion across interest. It's kind of religion across interest. It's kind of religion across the board and also forms of spirituality the board and also forms of spirituality the board and also forms of spirituality that are not really even religious at that are not really even religious at that are not really even religious at all. all. all. So that tells you something. And I So that tells you something. And I So that tells you something. And I wonder if part of what we're seeing is wonder if part of what we're seeing is wonder if part of what we're seeing is just a a loss of confidence in just a a loss of confidence in just a a loss of confidence in secularism and just that the well secularism and just that the well secularism and just that the well running dry. running dry. running dry. Uh people you know you get into life and Uh people you know you get into life and Uh people you know you get into life and you realize you realize you realize a secular framework is not delivering. a secular framework is not delivering. a secular framework is not delivering. And people are searching and people are And people are searching and people are And people are searching and people are hungry. And so I don't think that in and hungry. And so I don't think that in and hungry. And so I don't think that in and of itself necessarily translates into of itself necessarily translates into of itself necessarily translates into gospel fruitfulness, but it's tremendous gospel fruitfulness, but it's tremendous gospel fruitfulness, but it's tremendous opportunity for gospel fruitfulness.

opportunity for gospel fruitfulness. opportunity for gospel fruitfulness. That that's why I keep saying you know That that's why I keep saying you know That that's why I keep saying you know it's a time to be bold. It's a time to it's a time to be bold. It's a time to it's a time to be bold. It's a time to speak out the name of Jesus. It's a time speak out the name of Jesus. It's a time speak out the name of Jesus. It's a time to look around us and see where are the to look around us and see where are the to look around us and see where are the needs and lean into this moment. And if needs and lean into this moment. And if needs and lean into this moment. And if we can all we can all we can all if we would just get really busy with if we would just get really busy with if we would just get really busy with evangelism right now. evangelism right now. evangelism right now. I just feel that this is this is a a I just feel that this is this is a a I just feel that this is this is a a good thing to focus on right now. good thing to focus on right now. good thing to focus on right now. Yeah, I'd say we might be seeing some Yeah, I'd say we might be seeing some Yeah, I'd say we might be seeing some inklings of it, but like our place. So I inklings of it, but like our place. So I inklings of it, but like our place. So I live in outside of Boulder, Colorado, live in outside of Boulder, Colorado, live in outside of Boulder, Colorado, which if you know anything about that which if you know anything about that which if you know anything about that place it is gorgeous. It is a really place it is gorgeous. It is a really place it is gorgeous. It is a really beautiful place to live. People come beautiful place to live. People come beautiful place to live. People come there to take uh you know to consume there to take uh you know to consume there to take uh you know to consume recreation and a lifestyle. And I told recreation and a lifestyle. And I told recreation and a lifestyle. And I told our people like hey if somebody you know our people like hey if somebody you know our people like hey if somebody you know first moving to the area and they're first moving to the area and they're first moving to the area and they're Christian and they show up at church, um Christian and they show up at church, um Christian and they show up at church, um that's great, but also expect them to uh that's great, but also expect them to uh that's great, but also expect them to uh disappear for about 3 years disappear for about 3 years disappear for about 3 years and then come back. and then come back. and then come back. Because it takes about that long to go Because it takes about that long to go Because it takes about that long to go partake of all of those options and to partake of all of those options and to partake of all of those options and to feast upon the buffet of the the secular feast upon the buffet of the the secular feast upon the buffet of the the secular individualistic lifestyle that Boulder individualistic lifestyle that Boulder individualistic lifestyle that Boulder offers. And so I think um where we have offers. And so I think um where we have offers. And so I think um where we have seen that is like and it's funny like seen that is like and it's funny like seen that is like and it's funny like our people know that me preaching about our people know that me preaching about our people know that me preaching about the evils of social media is like the the evils of social media is like the the evils of social media is like the free space on the bingo card.

free space on the bingo card. free space on the bingo card. Um they were may as well be. And and our Um they were may as well be. And and our Um they were may as well be. And and our church is healthier than we've ever ever church is healthier than we've ever ever church is healthier than we've ever ever been because I'm seeing our people and been because I'm seeing our people and been because I'm seeing our people and our neighbors be so disgusted our neighbors be so disgusted our neighbors be so disgusted by that very it's a counterfeit by that very it's a counterfeit by that very it's a counterfeit institution institution institution that that that that there's I'm starting to see a that there's I'm starting to see a that there's I'm starting to see a return in health return in health return in health even before I'm seeing a return of like even before I'm seeing a return of like even before I'm seeing a return of like a it's a depth of growth over a breadth a it's a depth of growth over a breadth a it's a depth of growth over a breadth of growth right now. And so I think of growth right now. And so I think of growth right now. And so I think we'll see it because I don't doubt that we'll see it because I don't doubt that we'll see it because I don't doubt that this is the case because I I talk to this is the case because I I talk to this is the case because I I talk to other pastors across the country who are other pastors across the country who are other pastors across the country who are seeing this. And I think it's going to seeing this. And I think it's going to seeing this. And I think it's going to ripple through different areas ripple through different areas ripple through different areas in ways that are unique to that those in ways that are unique to that those in ways that are unique to that those circumstances. Yeah, there is a lot more we could say Yeah, there is a lot more we could say about that topic. It's a we could have a about that topic. It's a we could have a about that topic. It's a we could have a whole breakout session analyzing the whole breakout session analyzing the whole breakout session analyzing the vibe shift, but I want to get to some of vibe shift, but I want to get to some of vibe shift, but I want to get to some of the questions that have come in from the questions that have come in from the questions that have come in from your text questions. So here's one for your text questions. So here's one for your text questions. So here's one for Gavin. Gavin, you talked about um Gavin. Gavin, you talked about um Gavin. Gavin, you talked about um ecclesial anxiety and the need for ecclesial anxiety and the need for ecclesial anxiety and the need for assurance. Um assurance. Um assurance. Um how can we how should we as gospel how can we how should we as gospel how can we how should we as gospel centered believers go about addressing centered believers go about addressing centered believers go about addressing that desperate need for assurance? What that desperate need for assurance? What that desperate need for assurance? What resources would you recommend? And resources would you recommend? And resources would you recommend? And another person asked a related question, another person asked a related question, another person asked a related question, who are some of your favorite Puritans who are some of your favorite Puritans who are some of your favorite Puritans who have offered gospel assurance in who have offered gospel assurance in who have offered gospel assurance in their work?

their work? their work? Okay, thanks for the great question. Um Okay, thanks for the great question. Um Okay, thanks for the great question. Um a great Puritan resource that I love to a great Puritan resource that I love to a great Puritan resource that I love to recommend is Richard Sibbes The Bruised recommend is Richard Sibbes The Bruised recommend is Richard Sibbes The Bruised Reed. Some of you have read this book. Reed. Some of you have read this book. Reed. Some of you have read this book. Uh you know the Puritans take this Uh you know the Puritans take this Uh you know the Puritans take this they'll go to one little verse and they'll go to one little verse and they'll go to one little verse and they'll just ring it dry of all the hope they'll just ring it dry of all the hope they'll just ring it dry of all the hope you can get out of it and uh you can get out of it and uh you can get out of it and uh just apply it to every possible need in just apply it to every possible need in just apply it to every possible need in the heart and so forth. And uh it's a the heart and so forth. And uh it's a the heart and so forth. And uh it's a tremendous resource. So tremendous resource. So tremendous resource. So and just the Puritans in general have a and just the Puritans in general have a and just the Puritans in general have a lot to teach us about lot to teach us about lot to teach us about how the gospel touches the heart. how the gospel touches the heart. how the gospel touches the heart. Uh and and something like anxiety. I Uh and and something like anxiety. I Uh and and something like anxiety. I think our stereotype is that in the past think our stereotype is that in the past think our stereotype is that in the past people didn't think about what we call people didn't think about what we call people didn't think about what we call mental health. mental health. mental health. Uh and the reality is they were very Uh and the reality is they were very Uh and the reality is they were very good physicians of the soul. good physicians of the soul. good physicians of the soul. They thought a lot about those issues. They thought a lot about those issues. They thought a lot about those issues. And they have a lot to teach us. And they have a lot to teach us. And they have a lot to teach us. Um Um Um So that's a great resource there and So that's a great resource there and So that's a great resource there and just on the in the I I think the just on the in the I I think the just on the in the I I think the question was kind of asking about question was kind of asking about question was kind of asking about assurance and I guess I don't want to assurance and I guess I don't want to assurance and I guess I don't want to give a shortcut to that because give a shortcut to that because give a shortcut to that because the truth is there's certain things in the truth is there's certain things in the truth is there's certain things in my life that I feel I I sort of arrived my life that I feel I I sort of arrived my life that I feel I I sort of arrived upon assurance and it's taken a long upon assurance and it's taken a long upon assurance and it's taken a long time of study, you know?

time of study, you know? time of study, you know? Um I don't really believe that easy Um I don't really believe that easy Um I don't really believe that easy answers are are the solution here. I answers are are the solution here. I answers are are the solution here. I think of some of the great think of some of the great think of some of the great uh Christians throughout church history uh Christians throughout church history uh Christians throughout church history where it's been years of struggle and where it's been years of struggle and where it's been years of struggle and then they have a breakthrough. And so I then they have a breakthrough. And so I then they have a breakthrough. And so I want to acknowledge want to acknowledge want to acknowledge that this is messy. that this is messy. that this is messy. There is not a silver bullet to get to There is not a silver bullet to get to There is not a silver bullet to get to assurance. The the reality of the assurance. The the reality of the assurance. The the reality of the testimony of the Holy Spirit, Romans testimony of the Holy Spirit, Romans testimony of the Holy Spirit, Romans 8:16, that I mentioned is an existential 8:16, that I mentioned is an existential 8:16, that I mentioned is an existential reality. Uh it's one one issue on this reality. Uh it's one one issue on this reality. Uh it's one one issue on this topic. It's not the only thing that we topic. It's not the only thing that we topic. It's not the only thing that we need. need. need. So I believe in the value of study. So I believe in the value of study. So I believe in the value of study. You know, I talked about depth as a foil You know, I talked about depth as a foil You know, I talked about depth as a foil to rootlessness cuz I think that's one to rootlessness cuz I think that's one to rootlessness cuz I think that's one one of the things we need to help our one of the things we need to help our one of the things we need to help our people with is calling them in out of people with is calling them in out of people with is calling them in out of the milk and into the solid food to use the milk and into the solid food to use the milk and into the solid food to use the Hebrews 5 distinction there. And I the Hebrews 5 distinction there. And I the Hebrews 5 distinction there. And I think that's a part of how we grow in think that's a part of how we grow in think that's a part of how we grow in assurance. assurance. assurance. Um but the Puritans are a great resource Um but the Puritans are a great resource Um but the Puritans are a great resource on all this. on all this. on all this. Okay, here's a question that came in for Okay, here's a question that came in for Okay, here's a question that came in for Jared. Jared. Jared. What what about pastors who are having a What what about pastors who are having a What what about pastors who are having a dark night of the soul? How would you dark night of the soul? How would you dark night of the soul? How would you how do you stay gospel centered through how do you stay gospel centered through how do you stay gospel centered through spiritual dryness?

Well, I don't know that I would equate Well, I don't know that I would equate the dark night of the soul with the dark night of the soul with the dark night of the soul with spiritual dryness um spiritual dryness um spiritual dryness um because Was it St. John St. John of the Cross Was it St. John St. John of the Cross who came up with that term dark night of who came up with that term dark night of who came up with that term dark night of the soul? the soul? the soul? I think that's more about I think that's more about I think that's more about feeling like God is silent or feeling like God is silent or feeling like God is silent or um um um the quietness. And I can only speak for the quietness. And I can only speak for the quietness. And I can only speak for my experience. my experience. my experience. In in those times I they have been In in those times I they have been In in those times I they have been few um few um few um which is a blessed thing. which is a blessed thing. which is a blessed thing. But they've also been the preface to a But they've also been the preface to a But they've also been the preface to a sweetness after sweetness after sweetness after um a preface to something that has um a preface to something that has um a preface to something that has trained me now to trained me now to trained me now to to not despair. to not despair. to not despair. And I mean I got to tell you brother And I mean I got to tell you brother And I mean I got to tell you brother that that that I mean the I mean the I mean the gospel centered thing for me like gospel centered thing for me like gospel centered thing for me like I came to that before I even knew that I came to that before I even knew that I came to that before I even knew that phrase. Like there wasn't a day where phrase. Like there wasn't a day where phrase. Like there wasn't a day where like I think I'm centered on the gospel, like I think I'm centered on the gospel, like I think I'm centered on the gospel, you know, it wasn't like that. And it you know, it wasn't like that. And it you know, it wasn't like that. And it but it wasn't because somebody invited but it wasn't because somebody invited but it wasn't because somebody invited me to a conference or handed me a book me to a conference or handed me a book me to a conference or handed me a book or gave me a podcast.

or gave me a podcast. or gave me a podcast. Um it began with one one my wife coming Um it began with one one my wife coming Um it began with one one my wife coming to me and saying I don't want to be to me and saying I don't want to be to me and saying I don't want to be married to you anymore. I don't know who married to you anymore. I don't know who married to you anymore. I don't know who you are. you are. you are. Um you're not who I thought you were." Um you're not who I thought you were." Um you're not who I thought you were." And the rotten fruit of my sin And the rotten fruit of my sin And the rotten fruit of my sin and the brokenness of my marriage and the brokenness of my marriage and the brokenness of my marriage plunged me into plunged me into plunged me into the deepest depression for a long period the deepest depression for a long period the deepest depression for a long period of time. of time. of time. And And And I prayed like I've never prayed before. I prayed like I've never prayed before. I prayed like I've never prayed before. And anyone who's been through And anyone who's been through And anyone who's been through um um um a darkness like that, a darkness like that, a darkness like that, even if you're not hearing the voice even if you're not hearing the voice even if you're not hearing the voice back, how whatever that means for you, back, how whatever that means for you, back, how whatever that means for you, you're not feeling it. you're not feeling it. you're not feeling it. I wasn't feeling it. Um and in fact I wasn't feeling it. Um and in fact I wasn't feeling it. Um and in fact every day I was begging God to give me a every day I was begging God to give me a every day I was begging God to give me a reason not to take my own life. reason not to take my own life. reason not to take my own life. And that went on for the better part of And that went on for the better part of And that went on for the better part of a year. And I'm living in the guest a year. And I'm living in the guest a year. And I'm living in the guest bedroom of our home. bedroom of our home. bedroom of our home. And And And one just one night, one just one night, one just one night, I wasn't doing anything different than I I wasn't doing anything different than I I wasn't doing anything different than I had done any any previous night. had done any any previous night. had done any any previous night. Just crying out to God, "You you got to Just crying out to God, "You you got to Just crying out to God, "You you got to fix it. You got to do something. I don't fix it. You got to do something. I don't fix it. You got to do something. I don't I don't know what to do.

I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I I have I have no idea. I I have I have no idea. I I have I have no idea. Like I I can't do anything." Like I I can't do anything." Like I I can't do anything." And And And I don't know how to describe it except I don't know how to describe it except I don't know how to describe it except it was like the it was like the it was like the you know, in that picture style where you know, in that picture style where you know, in that picture style where the prodigal son came to himself or came the prodigal son came to himself or came the prodigal son came to himself or came to his senses, to his senses, to his senses, the the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart. the the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart. the the Holy Spirit spoke to my heart. Not a new message, an old message, Not a new message, an old message, Not a new message, an old message, the message of the gospel. And it was as the message of the gospel. And it was as the message of the gospel. And it was as it So it wasn't the first time I heard it So it wasn't the first time I heard it So it wasn't the first time I heard it, but it was as if the first time I'd it, but it was as if the first time I'd it, but it was as if the first time I'd ever heard it. ever heard it. ever heard it. And suddenly this is the feast for me. And suddenly this is the feast for me. And suddenly this is the feast for me. There's a joy. My circumstances aren't There's a joy. My circumstances aren't There's a joy. My circumstances aren't fixed. fixed. fixed. Uh my situation's not fixed, but I had a Uh my situation's not fixed, but I had a Uh my situation's not fixed, but I had a joy that I I hadn't had before. An joy that I I hadn't had before. An joy that I I hadn't had before. An energy energy energy um you know, by God's grace he he, you um you know, by God's grace he he, you um you know, by God's grace he he, you know, restored my marriage down the know, restored my marriage down the know, restored my marriage down the road, but that wasn't an immediate road, but that wasn't an immediate road, but that wasn't an immediate thing. You know, there was this thing. You know, there was this thing. You know, there was this uh um empowered repentance for me. And uh um empowered repentance for me. And uh um empowered repentance for me. And then later then later then later I'm sitting in a friend's living room I'm sitting in a friend's living room I'm sitting in a friend's living room and I'm still in the middle of this you and I'm still in the middle of this you and I'm still in the middle of this you know, um you know, seeker megachurch know, um you know, seeker megachurch know, um you know, seeker megachurch thing. thing. thing. And um I'm sitting looking at his And um I'm sitting looking at his And um I'm sitting looking at his Christianity Today magazine on the on Christianity Today magazine on the on Christianity Today magazine on the on the coffee table. And I pick it up and the coffee table. And I pick it up and the coffee table. And I pick it up and it's got, you know, Young Restless it's got, you know, Young Restless it's got, you know, Young Restless Reformed. And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'm Reformed. And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'm Reformed. And I'm like, "Oh, yeah, I'm reformed, you know."

reformed, you know." reformed, you know." I start reading it and I was like, "I I start reading it and I was like, "I I start reading it and I was like, "I think this is talking about me. I think think this is talking about me. I think think this is talking about me. I think I think I'm a part of these this group, I think I'm a part of these this group, I think I'm a part of these this group, you know." So I I like I didn't know you know." So I I like I didn't know you know." So I I like I didn't know anything about a movement. anything about a movement. anything about a movement. It was a bottoming out of my life. I you It was a bottoming out of my life. I you It was a bottoming out of my life. I you know, um 1 Thessalonians chapter 1, I know, um 1 Thessalonians chapter 1, I know, um 1 Thessalonians chapter 1, I think think think well, it's in the it's in chapter 1. well, it's in the it's in chapter 1. well, it's in the it's in chapter 1. You received uh you became imitators of You received uh you became imitators of You received uh you became imitators of us and of the Lord because you received us and of the Lord because you received us and of the Lord because you received the word in the midst of much affliction the word in the midst of much affliction the word in the midst of much affliction and with the joy of the Holy Spirit. and with the joy of the Holy Spirit. and with the joy of the Holy Spirit. There's something about the intersection There's something about the intersection There's something about the intersection of much affliction and hearing the word of much affliction and hearing the word of much affliction and hearing the word of the gospel. And so I would say to of the gospel. And so I would say to of the gospel. And so I would say to whoever asked that question, and and I whoever asked that question, and and I whoever asked that question, and and I pray it's it's theoretical, but in in pray it's it's theoretical, but in in pray it's it's theoretical, but in in case that it's not, case that it's not, case that it's not, do not give up do not give up do not give up depending on the Lord, whether you feel depending on the Lord, whether you feel depending on the Lord, whether you feel it or not, because those times are it or not, because those times are it or not, because those times are shaping for you just as much as the shaping for you just as much as the shaping for you just as much as the times where you are feeling it, if times where you are feeling it, if times where you are feeling it, if if not more so. if not more so. if not more so. If not more so. And I think we come to If not more so. And I think we come to If not more so. And I think we come to an appreciation of gospel centrality an appreciation of gospel centrality an appreciation of gospel centrality um you know, of the gospel. We come to um you know, of the gospel. We come to um you know, of the gospel. We come to appreciation of grace um appreciation of grace um appreciation of grace um precisely by going through precisely by going through precisely by going through uh times like that and discovering the uh times like that and discovering the uh times like that and discovering the sweetness of God on the other side.

sweetness of God on the other side. sweetness of God on the other side. Following off of that, Jared, um in your Following off of that, Jared, um in your Following off of that, Jared, um in your talk you you kind of made the point that talk you you kind of made the point that talk you you kind of made the point that gospel centrality can't just be gospel centrality can't just be gospel centrality can't just be cerebral, it can't just be cerebral, it can't just be cerebral, it can't just be doctrinal, it has to be your heart has doctrinal, it has to be your heart has doctrinal, it has to be your heart has to be in it. You have to be loving to be in it. You have to be loving to be in it. You have to be loving Jesus. You have to be growing in your Jesus. You have to be growing in your Jesus. You have to be growing in your personal devotion. And someone asks uh personal devotion. And someone asks uh personal devotion. And someone asks uh about that and and and asks for each about that and and and asks for each about that and and and asks for each member of the panel, what does that look member of the panel, what does that look member of the panel, what does that look like for you in your life? What does like for you in your life? What does like for you in your life? What does personal kind of devotional time where personal kind of devotional time where personal kind of devotional time where you are kind of in that quietness where you are kind of in that quietness where you are kind of in that quietness where it's about you and Jesus? What does that it's about you and Jesus? What does that it's about you and Jesus? What does that look like for you? I get up um and put on my prayer tunic. I get up um and put on my prayer tunic. And No, I I mean, it probably looks like No, I I mean, it probably looks like I mean, I externally I mean, I externally I mean, I externally like anyone else does devotional time. like anyone else does devotional time. like anyone else does devotional time. Um one thing I try to do is not have the Um one thing I try to do is not have the Um one thing I try to do is not have the distractions constantly, the noise. distractions constantly, the noise. distractions constantly, the noise. Um and so I get outside a lot. I'm not Um and so I get outside a lot. I'm not Um and so I get outside a lot. I'm not an outdoorsy person at all. I I'm not.

an outdoorsy person at all. I I'm not. an outdoorsy person at all. I I'm not. But I go outside every day. I have to do But I go outside every day. I have to do But I go outside every day. I have to do that. that. that. Um probably Um probably Um probably four or five times a week there's a four or five times a week there's a four or five times a week there's a 3-mile walk I take around the lake by my 3-mile walk I take around the lake by my 3-mile walk I take around the lake by my house. I don't do AirPods, earbuds. I house. I don't do AirPods, earbuds. I house. I don't do AirPods, earbuds. I don't I'm not even listening to like don't I'm not even listening to like don't I'm not even listening to like sermons or preaching or anything, but sermons or preaching or anything, but sermons or preaching or anything, but certainly not music. certainly not music. certainly not music. Um Um Um I because I I don't want just the noise. I because I I don't want just the noise. I because I I don't want just the noise. I want to have that time to be able to I want to have that time to be able to I want to have that time to be able to talk to the Lord. And there's just talk to the Lord. And there's just talk to the Lord. And there's just something about the walk that something about the walk that something about the walk that that does that. But it's that does that. But it's that does that. But it's it's it's reading my Bible every day and it's it's reading my Bible every day and it's it's reading my Bible every day and looking for Christ. It's in my prayer looking for Christ. It's in my prayer looking for Christ. It's in my prayer speaking to him as if he is my brother speaking to him as if he is my brother speaking to him as if he is my brother and my friend. He is my God. He is my and my friend. He is my God. He is my and my friend. He is my God. He is my Lord. He is my master. Amen. But he's Lord. He is my master. Amen. But he's Lord. He is my master. Amen. But he's also my friend. He is my advocate. And also my friend. He is my advocate. And also my friend. He is my advocate. And so that just that shift in perspective. so that just that shift in perspective. so that just that shift in perspective. But externally it it there's nothing I But externally it it there's nothing I But externally it it there's nothing I think significantly different I think think significantly different I think think significantly different I think than most people's devotions. than most people's devotions. than most people's devotions. Gavin, what about you? Gavin, what about you? Gavin, what about you? Yeah. I I love this question. Yeah. I I love this question. Yeah. I I love this question. Yeah, my my answer as well is not, you Yeah, my my answer as well is not, you Yeah, my my answer as well is not, you know, really all that interesting, I know, really all that interesting, I know, really all that interesting, I guess in a way. It's just some pretty guess in a way. It's just some pretty guess in a way. It's just some pretty simple practices that I just found I go simple practices that I just found I go simple practices that I just found I go to again and again that helped me so to again and again that helped me so to again and again that helped me so much. Um sometimes for me much. Um sometimes for me much. Um sometimes for me when we talk about gospel centeredness, when we talk about gospel centeredness, when we talk about gospel centeredness, right, the gospel, right, the gospel, right, the gospel, um um um I I love what Jared's been helping us I I love what Jared's been helping us I I love what Jared's been helping us think about about just intimacy with think about about just intimacy with think about about just intimacy with Jesus.

Jesus. Jesus. And so just I this is going to sound And so just I this is going to sound And so just I this is going to sound maybe even cheesy, but just the simple maybe even cheesy, but just the simple maybe even cheesy, but just the simple truth truth truth to come back to that Jesus loves me. to come back to that Jesus loves me. to come back to that Jesus loves me. And that's not a that's not an And that's not a that's not an And that's not a that's not an abstraction, that's not a formula. abstraction, that's not a formula. abstraction, that's not a formula. Um but you just live in that. And and Um but you just live in that. And and Um but you just live in that. And and for some reason, I I think it's a season for some reason, I I think it's a season for some reason, I I think it's a season of life I'm in, uh being outside of life I'm in, uh being outside of life I'm in, uh being outside and not overdoing it in terms of the and not overdoing it in terms of the and not overdoing it in terms of the cognitive aspect of that, you know, a cognitive aspect of that, you know, a cognitive aspect of that, you know, a lengthy study of scripture or something lengthy study of scripture or something lengthy study of scripture or something like that. I do read the Bible like that. I do read the Bible like that. I do read the Bible devotionally every day, but devotionally every day, but devotionally every day, but the sustained time of just reflection the sustained time of just reflection the sustained time of just reflection and just receiving and just resting in and just receiving and just resting in and just receiving and just resting in the love of Christ, thinking a lot about the love of Christ, thinking a lot about the love of Christ, thinking a lot about heaven. heaven. heaven. Uh when I'm thinking when I'm getting Uh when I'm thinking when I'm getting Uh when I'm thinking when I'm getting anxious or discouraged, uh just stepping anxious or discouraged, uh just stepping anxious or discouraged, uh just stepping away from screens and just uh away from screens and just uh away from screens and just uh resting in resting in resting in the the truth of who Jesus is and in the the truth of who Jesus is and in the the truth of who Jesus is and in relationship with him. And just I I relationship with him. And just I I relationship with him. And just I I think the the context to that is think the the context to that is think the the context to that is coming out of a season of extreme coming out of a season of extreme coming out of a season of extreme busyness and productivity and just busyness and productivity and just busyness and productivity and just finding the utter joy of not needing to finding the utter joy of not needing to finding the utter joy of not needing to do, do, do, but just to be.

but just to be. but just to be. And just to be with Jesus. So I'm a church planter, which means So I'm a church planter, which means that I'm a glutton for punishment. that I'm a glutton for punishment. that I'm a glutton for punishment. And one I think this is a danger for any And one I think this is a danger for any And one I think this is a danger for any church plant for any pastor, but church plant for any pastor, but church plant for any pastor, but especially also for church planters especially also for church planters especially also for church planters because you're trying to start something because you're trying to start something because you're trying to start something that does not exist. that does not exist. that does not exist. And you don't have elders. You don't And you don't have elders. You don't And you don't have elders. You don't really necessarily have a team or if you really necessarily have a team or if you really necessarily have a team or if you do, it's very thin. do, it's very thin. do, it's very thin. Um and it was about It was I think it Um and it was about It was I think it Um and it was about It was I think it was about a year ago now. Um I asked was about a year ago now. Um I asked was about a year ago now. Um I asked three guys in our church to three guys in our church to three guys in our church to um like, "Hey, would you Can we meet um like, "Hey, would you Can we meet um like, "Hey, would you Can we meet every other week every other week every other week and and get together for prayer? Because and and get together for prayer? Because and and get together for prayer? Because I I think I had gotten to a place I I think I had gotten to a place I I think I had gotten to a place where I forgot that I needed the church where I forgot that I needed the church where I forgot that I needed the church that I was planting as much as anyone that I was planting as much as anyone that I was planting as much as anyone else I was planting it for. else I was planting it for. else I was planting it for. And And And I I realized just how true that was when I I realized just how true that was when I I realized just how true that was when one of those guys, about a few months one of those guys, about a few months one of those guys, about a few months in, um called me and was just like in, um called me and was just like in, um called me and was just like frustrated. He was like, "Hey, man, I'm frustrated. He was like, "Hey, man, I'm frustrated. He was like, "Hey, man, I'm just trying to figure out like what it just trying to figure out like what it just trying to figure out like what it is that you're wanting me to get from is that you're wanting me to get from is that you're wanting me to get from this." And I'm like, "What are you this." And I'm like, "What are you this." And I'm like, "What are you talking about?" And he's just like, talking about?" And he's just like, talking about?" And he's just like, "Well, like what you know, like what "Well, like what you know, like what "Well, like what you know, like what how how am I how should I be engaging in how how am I how should I be engaging in how how am I how should I be engaging in our conversation?"

our conversation?" our conversation?" And I'm like, And I'm like, And I'm like, "What what what do you mean?" And he "What what what do you mean?" And he "What what what do you mean?" And he said, "Well, you asked us into this said, "Well, you asked us into this said, "Well, you asked us into this group so that we would like learn how to group so that we would like learn how to group so that we would like learn how to lead one of these, right?" lead one of these, right?" lead one of these, right?" Ah. Ah. Ah. No. No. No. "Friend, I asked you because I actually "Friend, I asked you because I actually "Friend, I asked you because I actually need to take the pastor hat off and need to take the pastor hat off and need to take the pastor hat off and remember that I am remember that I am remember that I am one of Christ just like you." one of Christ just like you." one of Christ just like you." And I had said that to him. And I had said that to him. And I had said that to him. And I had demonstrated something And I had demonstrated something And I had demonstrated something different up to that point. So I asked different up to that point. So I asked different up to that point. So I asked him and invited him and said, "Man, I him and invited him and said, "Man, I him and invited him and said, "Man, I need I actually need you need I actually need you need I actually need you to tell me to to shut up and take the to tell me to to shut up and take the to tell me to to shut up and take the pastor hat off um when I'm doing that. pastor hat off um when I'm doing that. pastor hat off um when I'm doing that. You're not here because I'm trying to You're not here because I'm trying to You're not here because I'm trying to get you to learn something or I want you get you to learn something or I want you get you to learn something or I want you to do something else. I'm actually to do something else. I'm actually to do something else. I'm actually saying like I'm lonely and I need I need saying like I'm lonely and I need I need saying like I'm lonely and I need I need your help your help your help to help me see Jesus as a son and not to help me see Jesus as a son and not to help me see Jesus as a son and not only as a servant." only as a servant." only as a servant." So So So I I I I I I it was helpful to write a book called it was helpful to write a book called it was helpful to write a book called The Reason for Church while I was doing The Reason for Church while I was doing The Reason for Church while I was doing that. that. that. I love it. I love it. I love it. I think we'll end there because I think I think we'll end there because I think I think we'll end there because I think that's a beautiful just bringing it down that's a beautiful just bringing it down that's a beautiful just bringing it down to the ground, right? Like all of us can to the ground, right? Like all of us can to the ground, right? Like all of us can talk all we want about the gospel and talk all we want about the gospel and talk all we want about the gospel and apologetics, but ultimately we're apologetics, but ultimately we're apologetics, but ultimately we're individuals who need the gospel as individuals who need the gospel as individuals who need the gospel as desperately as anyone we're preaching it desperately as anyone we're preaching it desperately as anyone we're preaching it to. And we need the love of God to. And we need the love of God to. And we need the love of God as urgently on a daily, you know, hourly as urgently on a daily, you know, hourly as urgently on a daily, you know, hourly basis as anyone else. So thank you guys, basis as anyone else. So thank you guys, basis as anyone else. So thank you guys, each of you, for your contributions each of you, for your contributions each of you, for your contributions today. Let's give them a hand.

Um I One of my favorite parts of Jared's Um I One of my favorite parts of Jared's book is near the end. He has this book is near the end. He has this book is near the end. He has this observation about the necessity of observation about the necessity of observation about the necessity of prayer, which is fitting for kind of prayer, which is fitting for kind of prayer, which is fitting for kind of where we're landing tonight. He says, where we're landing tonight. He says, where we're landing tonight. He says, "Prayer represents the fundamental "Prayer represents the fundamental "Prayer represents the fundamental posture of the gospel. We are sinners posture of the gospel. We are sinners posture of the gospel. We are sinners with nothing but need." I love that. with nothing but need." I love that. with nothing but need." I love that. Nothing but need. And I think that Nothing but need. And I think that Nothing but need. And I think that you're right, um Jared, in your book to you're right, um Jared, in your book to you're right, um Jared, in your book to observe this. observe this. observe this. You say, "The gospel-centered tribe, and You say, "The gospel-centered tribe, and You say, "The gospel-centered tribe, and this is like convicting, right? Cuz we this is like convicting, right? Cuz we this is like convicting, right? Cuz we are the gospel-centered tribe, has been are the gospel-centered tribe, has been are the gospel-centered tribe, has been a preaching, writing, and thinking a preaching, writing, and thinking a preaching, writing, and thinking tribe, but not much of a praying tribe. tribe, but not much of a praying tribe. tribe, but not much of a praying tribe. But no tribe that drifts into But no tribe that drifts into But no tribe that drifts into prayerlessness can expect to stay prayerlessness can expect to stay prayerlessness can expect to stay anchored to the gospel centrality for anchored to the gospel centrality for anchored to the gospel centrality for long. Yeah. So, on that note, Jared, why long. Yeah. So, on that note, Jared, why long. Yeah. So, on that note, Jared, why don't you end our time with prayer? don't you end our time with prayer? don't you end our time with prayer? Take it to the Lord. He is the only one Take it to the Lord. He is the only one Take it to the Lord. He is the only one that can make any of this turn into a that can make any of this turn into a that can make any of this turn into a revival. So. Heavenly Father, we thank you, first of Heavenly Father, we thank you, first of all, for this privilege, this all, for this privilege, this all, for this privilege, this stewardship that we that we all have stewardship that we that we all have stewardship that we that we all have to help each other remember grace, to to help each other remember grace, to to help each other remember grace, to remember the good news of your son, remember the good news of your son, remember the good news of your son, Christ Jesus. Help us to remember Christ Jesus. Help us to remember Christ Jesus. Help us to remember that he went to the cross for us, that that he went to the cross for us, that that he went to the cross for us, that he rose from the grave for us, that he he rose from the grave for us, that he he rose from the grave for us, that he has ascended has ascended has ascended to your right hand and intercedes always to your right hand and intercedes always to your right hand and intercedes always for us.

for us. for us. We thank you for that gift. We thank you We thank you for that gift. We thank you We thank you for that gift. We thank you for the privilege of helping each other for the privilege of helping each other for the privilege of helping each other remember that gift. Father, when it remember that gift. Father, when it remember that gift. Father, when it comes to all of these comes to all of these comes to all of these issues and crises and challenges and issues and crises and challenges and issues and crises and challenges and obstacles, obstacles, obstacles, there are things we throw at them from there are things we throw at them from there are things we throw at them from the gifts you've given us, the gifts you've given us, the gifts you've given us, from these dear brothers, from church from these dear brothers, from church from these dear brothers, from church history, and and and other great history, and and and other great history, and and and other great thinkers. thinkers. thinkers. But at the end of the day, we have But at the end of the day, we have But at the end of the day, we have nothing if you do not give it. And so, nothing if you do not give it. And so, nothing if you do not give it. And so, we we ask that you would grant us the we we ask that you would grant us the we we ask that you would grant us the repentance that we need, repentance that we need, repentance that we need, the awe of your holiness, the conviction the awe of your holiness, the conviction the awe of your holiness, the conviction of sin, of sin, of sin, the staggering under the weight of your the staggering under the weight of your the staggering under the weight of your precious law. precious law. precious law. Would you give us that? Would you give us that? Would you give us that? And then also the freedom, the joy, the And then also the freedom, the joy, the And then also the freedom, the joy, the exhilaration, the rest exhilaration, the rest exhilaration, the rest of your son's accomplishing all that the of your son's accomplishing all that the of your son's accomplishing all that the law demands for us, law demands for us, law demands for us, dying in our place. dying in our place. dying in our place. Would you give us that, please, Lord?

Would you give us that, please, Lord? Would you give us that, please, Lord? As we look at these things, they they As we look at these things, they they As we look at these things, they they are too big for us. Keep us are too big for us. Keep us are too big for us. Keep us from from getting into things that are from from getting into things that are from from getting into things that are too wonderful for us. too wonderful for us. too wonderful for us. We don't know what to do, but we we we We don't know what to do, but we we we We don't know what to do, but we we we fix our eyes on you. fix our eyes on you. fix our eyes on you. We thank you for Christ Jesus. We pray We thank you for Christ Jesus. We pray We thank you for Christ Jesus. We pray these things in his name, the name above these things in his name, the name above these things in his name, the name above all names. Amen. Amen. all names. Amen. Amen. all names. Amen. Amen. Thank you guys for being here. Be sure Thank you guys for being here. Be sure Thank you guys for being here. Be sure to go to the back, pick up some books, to go to the back, pick up some books, to go to the back, pick up some books, and these guys will be back there in a and these guys will be back there in a and these guys will be back there in a minute to sign books and to greet you. minute to sign books and to greet you. minute to sign books and to greet you. Thanks so much.