Making Decisions with Our Limits in Mind [The Deep Dish - Ep. 19]

I think if I were going to talk to I think if I were going to talk to younger me about this, what I would tell younger me about this, what I would tell younger me about this, what I would tell younger me is there are yeses and there younger me is there are yeses and there younger me is there are yeses and there are nos, but there are also not right are nos, but there are also not right are nos, but there are also not right nows. The Lord will not give me a gift nows. The Lord will not give me a gift nows. The Lord will not give me a gift or a calling that he's going to let lie or a calling that he's going to let lie or a calling that he's going to let lie dormant. [Music] [Music] Hey friends, um my name is Melissa Hey friends, um my name is Melissa Hey friends, um my name is Melissa Krueger. I am here with my co-host Krueger. I am here with my co-host Krueger. I am here with my co-host Courtney Doctor. This is the Deep Dish Courtney Doctor. This is the Deep Dish Courtney Doctor. This is the Deep Dish Podcast where we like to have deep Podcast where we like to have deep Podcast where we like to have deep conversations about deep truths. And conversations about deep truths. And conversations about deep truths. And today is so fun because we have our today is so fun because we have our today is so fun because we have our friend Jen Wilin with us. And we are so friend Jen Wilin with us. And we are so friend Jen Wilin with us. And we are so glad you're here. glad you're here. glad you're here. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> I'm so glad to be here. >> And um well, first I'm going to ask a >> And um well, first I'm going to ask a >> And um well, first I'm going to ask a question. But the first thing you have question. But the first thing you have question. But the first thing you have to tell us is what's your grandmother to tell us is what's your grandmother to tell us is what's your grandmother name? name? name? >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Oh. >> Because everybody knows all the stuff >> Because everybody knows all the stuff >> Because everybody knows all the stuff like you've written books, you do all like you've written books, you do all like you've written books, you do all these amazing things. You're a Bible these amazing things. You're a Bible these amazing things. You're a Bible teacher. I know. Yeah. We all know that. teacher. I know. Yeah. We all know that. teacher. I know. Yeah. We all know that. >> But the grandmother name is one of my >> But the grandmother name is one of my >> But the grandmother name is one of my favorites. I agree. I agree. So, tell us favorites. I agree. I agree. So, tell us favorites. I agree. I agree. So, tell us that verse and then I'll ask the that verse and then I'll ask the that verse and then I'll ask the question. question. question. >> So, my grandmother name is Sugar >> So, my grandmother name is Sugar >> So, my grandmother name is Sugar >> cuz you're so sweet.

>> cuz you're so sweet. >> cuz you're so sweet. >> Cuz it's ironic. It's meant to be >> Cuz it's ironic. It's meant to be >> Cuz it's ironic. It's meant to be ironic. No, I mean, when the kids were ironic. No, I mean, when the kids were ironic. No, I mean, when the kids were just like, "That's terrible. You cannot just like, "That's terrible. You cannot just like, "That's terrible. You cannot have that be your name." And I said, have that be your name." And I said, have that be your name." And I said, "Oh, no. It's I'm I'm doing it." I was "Oh, no. It's I'm I'm doing it." I was "Oh, no. It's I'm I'm doing it." I was like, "I was not sweet with you, but I like, "I was not sweet with you, but I like, "I was not sweet with you, but I will be sweet with your children." Yes. will be sweet with your children." Yes. will be sweet with your children." Yes. And so Henry, the oldest of the And so Henry, the oldest of the And so Henry, the oldest of the grandchildren, he calls me Sugs. grandchildren, he calls me Sugs. grandchildren, he calls me Sugs. >> A >> A >> A >> So I would come down, they stayed with >> So I would come down, they stayed with >> So I would come down, they stayed with us this summer, and I would come us this summer, and I would come us this summer, and I would come downstairs in the morning, he'd go, "Hi, downstairs in the morning, he'd go, "Hi, downstairs in the morning, he'd go, "Hi, Sugs." Oh, it's the best. It's the best. Sugs." Oh, it's the best. It's the best. Sugs." Oh, it's the best. It's the best. Mine's Cece and the There's one grandson Mine's Cece and the There's one grandson Mine's Cece and the There's one grandson that says cease and I'm just like this. that says cease and I'm just like this. that says cease and I'm just like this. >> Perfect. Perfect. >> Perfect. Perfect. >> Perfect. Perfect. >> I'm like, "Yeah, I'll take really long." >> I'm like, "Yeah, I'll take really long." >> I'm like, "Yeah, I'll take really long." >> Yeah. Olivia calls me Shushu right now. >> Yeah. Olivia calls me Shushu right now. >> Yeah. Olivia calls me Shushu right now. So, we'll take that. So, we'll take that. So, we'll take that. >> Okay. I'm coming to y'all for advice >> Okay. I'm coming to y'all for advice >> Okay. I'm coming to y'all for advice when I need a grandmother. when I need a grandmother. when I need a grandmother. >> We know your grandmother name. This will >> We know your grandmother name. This will >> We know your grandmother name. This will be a later episode. be a later episode. be a later episode. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> Perfect. >> Okay. Today, we are talking about the >> Okay. Today, we are talking about the >> Okay. Today, we are talking about the wisdom of quitting. And that seems kind wisdom of quitting. And that seems kind wisdom of quitting. And that seems kind of like maybe a counterintuitive topic. of like maybe a counterintuitive topic. of like maybe a counterintuitive topic. Normally it's like oh how can we do all Normally it's like oh how can we do all Normally it's like oh how can we do all these amazing things for God what are these amazing things for God what are these amazing things for God what are you dreaming of doing and now we're at you dreaming of doing and now we're at you dreaming of doing and now we're at the stage of life where maybe we say the stage of life where maybe we say the stage of life where maybe we say what are you quitting in fact what are you quitting in fact what are you quitting in fact in fact a mentor of mine she said after in fact a mentor of mine she said after in fact a mentor of mine she said after 50 her question every year is one what 50 her question every year is one what 50 her question every year is one what is one thing I'm going to stop doing is one thing I'm going to stop doing is one thing I'm going to stop doing >> oh that's really fascinating >> oh that's really fascinating >> oh that's really fascinating >> yeah I thought that was a fascinating >> yeah I thought that was a fascinating >> yeah I thought that was a fascinating thing so Jen walk us through thing so Jen walk us through thing so Jen walk us through >> a decision you've had to make something >> a decision you've had to make something >> a decision you've had to make something through the years you've had to stop through the years you've had to stop through the years you've had to stop doing maybe so that it could open the doing maybe so that it could open the doing maybe so that it could open the door for you to do other things, but you door for you to do other things, but you door for you to do other things, but you just knew, okay, I'm actually being just knew, okay, I'm actually being just knew, okay, I'm actually being called out of something.

called out of something. called out of something. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I have a fairly >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I have a fairly >> Yeah. Well, I mean, I have a fairly recent one. I had been working full-time recent one. I had been working full-time recent one. I had been working full-time at my church. I was on staff at my at my church. I was on staff at my at my church. I was on staff at my church for 12 years total. And in my church for 12 years total. And in my church for 12 years total. And in my final iteration there, I had like 30 final iteration there, I had like 30 final iteration there, I had like 30 people in my uh downline that I was people in my uh downline that I was people in my uh downline that I was overseeing and you know, a really big overseeing and you know, a really big overseeing and you know, a really big ministry area. And at the same time I ministry area. And at the same time I ministry area. And at the same time I had my parents were aging like I lost my had my parents were aging like I lost my had my parents were aging like I lost my mom while I was in that role and then mom while I was in that role and then mom while I was in that role and then started to multiply grandkids all of a started to multiply grandkids all of a started to multiply grandkids all of a sudden. You know kids were getting sudden. You know kids were getting sudden. You know kids were getting married and um and it was just married and um and it was just married and um and it was just increasingly apparent to me that I increasingly apparent to me that I increasingly apparent to me that I needed to find anywhere to get margin. needed to find anywhere to get margin. needed to find anywhere to get margin. And it was hard though because like And it was hard though because like And it was hard though because like working in the local church meant a working in the local church meant a working in the local church meant a great deal to me. And you guys know like great deal to me. And you guys know like great deal to me. And you guys know like it was a long it was a long it was a long >> trip for me to even finally be in a role >> trip for me to even finally be in a role >> trip for me to even finally be in a role where I felt like yes this is what I where I felt like yes this is what I where I felt like yes this is what I have wanted to do for so long. And so it have wanted to do for so long. And so it have wanted to do for so long. And so it was weird to be was weird to be was weird to be >> not that old and realize I think this is >> not that old and realize I think this is >> not that old and realize I think this is coming to an end. And I remember when I coming to an end. And I remember when I coming to an end. And I remember when I told the church, hey, I'm going to step told the church, hey, I'm going to step told the church, hey, I'm going to step back from this role. They said, oh, back from this role. They said, oh, back from this role. They said, oh, you're retiring.

you're retiring. you're retiring. >> I was like, ouch. >> I was like, ouch. >> I was like, ouch. >> I know, right? I am not quite ready to >> I know, right? I am not quite ready to >> I know, right? I am not quite ready to retire. No, I actually this is so that I retire. No, I actually this is so that I retire. No, I actually this is so that I can pursue the things probably that only can pursue the things probably that only can pursue the things probably that only I can do. You know, that was what my I can do. You know, that was what my I can do. You know, that was what my good help who were helping me process good help who were helping me process good help who were helping me process the decision kept saying to me is the decision kept saying to me is the decision kept saying to me is >> you're doing things in your role that >> you're doing things in your role that >> you're doing things in your role that only you can do in your role, but you're only you can do in your role, but you're only you can do in your role, but you're not in a role that only can be done by not in a role that only can be done by not in a role that only can be done by you. you. you. >> That's a good Say that again. Say that >> That's a good Say that again. Say that >> That's a good Say that again. Say that again. that there were aspects to how I again. that there were aspects to how I again. that there were aspects to how I was operating in my role that only I was operating in my role that only I was operating in my role that only I could do as the person in that role, but could do as the person in that role, but could do as the person in that role, but that it was not a role that could only that it was not a role that could only that it was not a role that could only be done by me. And I kind of didn't want be done by me. And I kind of didn't want be done by me. And I kind of didn't want to hear that like everybody else. I to hear that like everybody else. I to hear that like everybody else. I wanted to feel a little bit like, oh no, wanted to feel a little bit like, oh no, wanted to feel a little bit like, oh no, I'm I'm really indispensable there, you I'm I'm really indispensable there, you I'm I'm really indispensable there, you know, because you're pouring so much know, because you're pouring so much know, because you're pouring so much energy into it. energy into it. energy into it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um and then, you know, relationships >> And um and then, you know, relationships >> And um and then, you know, relationships with with the people on my team and the with with the people on my team and the with with the people on my team and the people I'd worked with for a long time. people I'd worked with for a long time. people I'd worked with for a long time. I was a little worried maybe I'd never I was a little worried maybe I'd never I was a little worried maybe I'd never leave the house again once I wasn't leave the house again once I wasn't leave the house again once I wasn't going into work. And actually that may going into work. And actually that may going into work. And actually that may be true, but it doesn't feel terrible at be true, but it doesn't feel terrible at be true, but it doesn't feel terrible at this point.

this point. this point. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> So yeah, but I mean it was a process. I >> So yeah, but I mean it was a process. I >> So yeah, but I mean it was a process. I would imagine you guys have a similar would imagine you guys have a similar would imagine you guys have a similar understanding of it. understanding of it. understanding of it. >> Yeah. Well, even just that aspect of >> Yeah. Well, even just that aspect of >> Yeah. Well, even just that aspect of there's loss there's loss there's loss >> and is there grief with it? >> and is there grief with it? >> and is there grief with it? >> Oh my gosh. Yes. There's the whole cycle >> Oh my gosh. Yes. There's the whole cycle >> Oh my gosh. Yes. There's the whole cycle of trying to kind of work through what of trying to kind of work through what of trying to kind of work through what it is to say no to something and to walk it is to say no to something and to walk it is to say no to something and to walk away, especially when you've poured away, especially when you've poured away, especially when you've poured yourself in like yourself in like yourself in like >> and you've done it for a long time. And >> and you've done it for a long time. And >> and you've done it for a long time. And you know, I know that like people are you know, I know that like people are you know, I know that like people are like, oh, you're not supposed to find like, oh, you're not supposed to find like, oh, you're not supposed to find your identity in your work. And I'm your identity in your work. And I'm your identity in your work. And I'm like, well, okay. I mean, I don't know like, well, okay. I mean, I don't know like, well, okay. I mean, I don't know that I would be doing the job the way that I would be doing the job the way that I would be doing the job the way that I want to if I wasn't really that I want to if I wasn't really that I want to if I wasn't really working, you know, I it really bothered working, you know, I it really bothered working, you know, I it really bothered me with motherhood. was like, me with motherhood. was like, me with motherhood. was like, >> "Don't love your kids more than you love >> "Don't love your kids more than you love >> "Don't love your kids more than you love God." You know, and I was like, "What? God." You know, and I was like, "What? God." You know, and I was like, "What? Can't I love my kids? Can't I love God Can't I love my kids? Can't I love God Can't I love my kids? Can't I love God by loving my kids?" And I feel the same by loving my kids?" And I feel the same by loving my kids?" And I feel the same way about some of the ministry way about some of the ministry way about some of the ministry opportunities that have come my way. And opportunities that have come my way. And opportunities that have come my way. And so, no, it doesn't define who I am, but so, no, it doesn't define who I am, but so, no, it doesn't define who I am, but it does tend to define us for a season. it does tend to define us for a season. it does tend to define us for a season. And it's it's that whole trick of And it's it's that whole trick of And it's it's that whole trick of knowing, is this season over?

knowing, is this season over? knowing, is this season over? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Because they don't always end with a >> Because they don't always end with a >> Because they don't always end with a bang. Sometimes they sort of taper taper bang. Sometimes they sort of taper taper bang. Sometimes they sort of taper taper down. down. down. >> Well, that's another question. >> Well, that's another question. >> Well, that's another question. Have you ever stayed too long, Courtney? Have you ever stayed too long, Courtney? Have you ever stayed too long, Courtney? You because that's a whole different You because that's a whole different You because that's a whole different question. Like I felt like I had to make question. Like I felt like I had to make question. Like I felt like I had to make one transition at one point and I so one transition at one point and I so one transition at one point and I so believed in what I was doing, believed in what I was doing, believed in what I was doing, >> but the signs were probably all around >> but the signs were probably all around >> but the signs were probably all around me that it was time to go. me that it was time to go. me that it was time to go. >> I just didn't want to go. So there can >> I just didn't want to go. So there can >> I just didn't want to go. So there can be and that can sometimes lead to really be and that can sometimes lead to really be and that can sometimes lead to really negative things if you do stay in a role negative things if you do stay in a role negative things if you do stay in a role too long. too long. too long. >> Wait, now do you guys how do what's your >> Wait, now do you guys how do what's your >> Wait, now do you guys how do what's your relationship to change? Do you like it? relationship to change? Do you like it? relationship to change? Do you like it? That plays a part in it, doesn't it? That plays a part in it, doesn't it? That plays a part in it, doesn't it? like change. like change. like change. >> Well, I I mean I can't say I just love >> Well, I I mean I can't say I just love >> Well, I I mean I can't say I just love it, but I'm not change averse. Okay. it, but I'm not change averse. Okay. it, but I'm not change averse. Okay. >> You know, it doesn't like >> You know, it doesn't like >> You know, it doesn't like >> I'm a >> I'm a >> I'm a I you know, I need Gandalf to come and I you know, I need Gandalf to come and I you know, I need Gandalf to come and make me go on an adventure make me go on an adventure make me go on an adventure >> cuz I hilarious. >> cuz I hilarious. >> cuz I hilarious. >> You're not like looking for the >> You're not like looking for the >> You're not like looking for the adventure. adventure. adventure. >> Yeah. And I would be like Merryweather >> Yeah. And I would be like Merryweather >> Yeah. And I would be like Merryweather and um wait, what's Pippen that? Um you and um wait, what's Pippen that? Um you and um wait, what's Pippen that? Um you know, they like chose to go on the know, they like chose to go on the know, they like chose to go on the adventure. Yes. because you wouldn't adventure. Yes. because you wouldn't adventure. Yes. because you wouldn't want to miss out.

want to miss out. want to miss out. >> Sneaky behind tell her boyfriend. >> Sneaky behind tell her boyfriend. >> Sneaky behind tell her boyfriend. >> I know. It's so true. >> I know. It's so true. >> I know. It's so true. >> It's so true. >> It's so true. >> It's so true. >> I think that impacts the way we think >> I think that impacts the way we think >> I think that impacts the way we think about these moments. Yeah, it does. about these moments. Yeah, it does. about these moments. Yeah, it does. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> it does. So, in that So, that's that's >> it does. So, in that So, that's that's >> it does. So, in that So, that's that's part of discernment, right? Even knowing part of discernment, right? Even knowing part of discernment, right? Even knowing who you are. So, how would you walk a who you are. So, how would you walk a who you are. So, how would you walk a younger woman through a decision? Yeah. younger woman through a decision? Yeah. younger woman through a decision? Yeah. And this is really a discernment thing. And this is really a discernment thing. And this is really a discernment thing. It's not just It's not just It's not just >> it's not one sizefits-all. So, we always >> it's not one sizefits-all. So, we always >> it's not one sizefits-all. So, we always say in these things, it's always good to say in these things, it's always good to say in these things, it's always good to talk to an older woman who actually talk to an older woman who actually talk to an older woman who actually knows you, but just general wisdom, how knows you, but just general wisdom, how knows you, but just general wisdom, how would you walk a younger woman through would you walk a younger woman through would you walk a younger woman through the decision to stop something? Yeah. the decision to stop something? Yeah. the decision to stop something? Yeah. >> That she actually loves, you know, that >> That she actually loves, you know, that >> That she actually loves, you know, that she's doing that she loves, but she's she's doing that she loves, but she's she's doing that she loves, but she's feeling like, oh, I don't know if I'm feeling like, oh, I don't know if I'm feeling like, oh, I don't know if I'm supposed to keep doing this or just how supposed to keep doing this or just how supposed to keep doing this or just how do you do that? Do you make a procon do you do that? Do you make a procon do you do that? Do you make a procon list? list? list? >> Practically, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't >> Practically, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't >> Practically, it doesn't hurt. It doesn't hurt to do the procon list. And hurt to do the procon list. And hurt to do the procon list. And definitely in the presence of many definitely in the presence of many definitely in the presence of many counselors that you are doing it within, counselors that you are doing it within, counselors that you are doing it within, >> you know, the context of community, >> you know, the context of community, >> you know, the context of community, inviting other people in, especially in inviting other people in, especially in inviting other people in, especially in your local church, um, church leaders, your local church, um, church leaders, your local church, um, church leaders, um, asking them to speak into it and um, asking them to speak into it and um, asking them to speak into it and showing them your procon list and kind showing them your procon list and kind showing them your procon list and kind of you looking for, you know, my husband of you looking for, you know, my husband of you looking for, you know, my husband and I talk a lot about looking for the and I talk a lot about looking for the and I talk a lot about looking for the confirmation of the body in our confirmation of the body in our confirmation of the body in our decisions. And, you know, we made a huge decisions. And, you know, we made a huge decisions. And, you know, we made a huge change in our early 40s. I mean, we, you change in our early 40s. I mean, we, you change in our early 40s. I mean, we, you know, we say we sold the farm and moved know, we say we sold the farm and moved know, we say we sold the farm and moved to St.

to St. to St. literally still farm. literally still farm. literally still farm. >> And that was that was not a decision >> And that was that was not a decision >> And that was that was not a decision made lightly, but it was confirmed in so made lightly, but it was confirmed in so made lightly, but it was confirmed in so many different ways. And so I think you many different ways. And so I think you many different ways. And so I think you look for that. You you ask the Lord to look for that. You you ask the Lord to look for that. You you ask the Lord to show you and then you ask other people show you and then you ask other people show you and then you ask other people and then you look for the confir. We and then you look for the confir. We and then you look for the confir. We needed some we needed to sell the farm. needed some we needed to sell the farm. needed some we needed to sell the farm. We needed to there were some practical We needed to there were some practical We needed to there were some practical things that had to fall in place for the things that had to fall in place for the things that had to fall in place for the Lord to confirm that that was where we Lord to confirm that that was where we Lord to confirm that that was where we were supposed to be. And so it's not were supposed to be. And so it's not were supposed to be. And so it's not formulaic, but I do think there are formulaic, but I do think there are formulaic, but I do think there are certain things that we do as we're certain things that we do as we're certain things that we do as we're trying to discern is this trying to discern is this trying to discern is this >> a time of ending and a time of starting, >> a time of ending and a time of starting, >> a time of ending and a time of starting, time of saying no, a time of saying yes. time of saying no, a time of saying yes. time of saying no, a time of saying yes. Like we have to Like we have to Like we have to >> we have to do some of I mean we have to >> we have to do some of I mean we have to >> we have to do some of I mean we have to pray about it. pray about it. pray about it. >> We have to ask other people. >> We have to ask other people. >> We have to ask other people. >> Um and we have to look at the way the >> Um and we have to look at the way the >> Um and we have to look at the way the circumstances are playing out. circumstances are playing out. circumstances are playing out. >> That's good. I think you can also have >> That's good. I think you can also have >> That's good. I think you can also have some deal breakers, you know, sort of some deal breakers, you know, sort of some deal breakers, you know, sort of like this is a definite offramp for me. like this is a definite offramp for me. like this is a definite offramp for me. If this happens, then I know If this happens, then I know If this happens, then I know >> it's time to start triggering the the >> it's time to start triggering the the >> it's time to start triggering the the offramp, you know, but a lot of times offramp, you know, but a lot of times offramp, you know, but a lot of times those don't happen. And so then you're those don't happen. And so then you're those don't happen. And so then you're like, well, I guess am I just supposed like, well, I guess am I just supposed like, well, I guess am I just supposed to die in this role or doing what I'm to die in this role or doing what I'm to die in this role or doing what I'm currently because I don't change, you currently because I don't change, you currently because I don't change, you know, I'm not looking to change things know, I'm not looking to change things know, I'm not looking to change things up.

up. up. >> And it takes a lot of of, you know, oh >> And it takes a lot of of, you know, oh >> And it takes a lot of of, you know, oh yeah, it's time for me to actually make yeah, it's time for me to actually make yeah, it's time for me to actually make the move. And that's usually in the the move. And that's usually in the the move. And that's usually in the person of Jeff Wilkins saying, "You've person of Jeff Wilkins saying, "You've person of Jeff Wilkins saying, "You've had three jobs for 10 years. When are had three jobs for 10 years. When are had three jobs for 10 years. When are you going to have one or two?" You know, you going to have one or two?" You know, you going to have one or two?" You know, that kind of a thing. I think you need a that kind of a thing. I think you need a that kind of a thing. I think you need a trutht teller, right? trutht teller, right? trutht teller, right? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Or more than one. And um someone who's >> Or more than one. And um someone who's >> Or more than one. And um someone who's outside of the immediate situation who outside of the immediate situation who outside of the immediate situation who can give more of an objective read on can give more of an objective read on can give more of an objective read on things because like in my if I had things because like in my if I had things because like in my if I had written my procon list, I would have written my procon list, I would have written my procon list, I would have needed honestly for it to be graded by needed honestly for it to be graded by needed honestly for it to be graded by my mentor. Yeah. my mentor. Yeah. my mentor. Yeah. >> Who's like this list is wrong. >> Who's like this list is wrong. >> Who's like this list is wrong. >> Okay. explain that a little bit more >> Okay. explain that a little bit more >> Okay. explain that a little bit more because that's really helpful because because that's really helpful because because that's really helpful because sometimes we just do the procon list. sometimes we just do the procon list. sometimes we just do the procon list. >> Yeah, because I think I would I would >> Yeah, because I think I would I would >> Yeah, because I think I would I would overvalue some of the things I had on overvalue some of the things I had on overvalue some of the things I had on the pros uh and under undervalue, you the pros uh and under undervalue, you the pros uh and under undervalue, you know, sort of like diminish some of the know, sort of like diminish some of the know, sort of like diminish some of the cons because I'm invested in not cons because I'm invested in not cons because I'm invested in not changing anything. And so I needed to be changing anything. And so I needed to be changing anything. And so I needed to be nudged toward hang on, hang on, I need nudged toward hang on, hang on, I need nudged toward hang on, hang on, I need you to read this list again. You know, you to read this list again. You know, you to read this list again. You know, these some of these are really these some of these are really these some of these are really significant. There was some of that. But significant. There was some of that. But significant. There was some of that. But I you know the other thing that we did I you know the other thing that we did I you know the other thing that we did is uh Jeff and I would do anytime we've is uh Jeff and I would do anytime we've is uh Jeff and I would do anytime we've had a a big decision you know where had a a big decision you know where had a a big decision you know where you're like I think this might be ending you're like I think this might be ending you're like I think this might be ending but I'm not sure is we would have sort but I'm not sure is we would have sort but I'm not sure is we would have sort of like a regularly scheduled touch base of like a regularly scheduled touch base of like a regularly scheduled touch base you know and it would be it's not you know and it would be it's not you know and it would be it's not scientific but it was like how are you scientific but it was like how are you scientific but it was like how are you feeling compared to the last time we feeling compared to the last time we feeling compared to the last time we talked about this? Has it gotten better talked about this? Has it gotten better talked about this? Has it gotten better or has it gotten worse? And by that that or has it gotten worse? And by that that or has it gotten worse? And by that that measure might be your stress level, you measure might be your stress level, you measure might be your stress level, you know, or your frustration level or your know, or your frustration level or your know, or your frustration level or your exhaustion level, you know, and just exhaustion level, you know, and just exhaustion level, you know, and just kind of like taking the temperature of

kind of like taking the temperature of kind of like taking the temperature of it. Especially, I think when you're it. Especially, I think when you're it. Especially, I think when you're talking about church work talking about church work talking about church work >> and, you know, I was in a role in a in a >> and, you know, I was in a role in a in a >> and, you know, I was in a role in a in a church one time where the frustration church one time where the frustration church one time where the frustration level just kept growing and growing, level just kept growing and growing, level just kept growing and growing, growing to the point where I couldn't be growing to the point where I couldn't be growing to the point where I couldn't be a church member. a church member. a church member. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know what I'm saying? >> You know what I'm saying? >> You know what I'm saying? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> And and that's not good. And so either >> And and that's not good. And so either >> And and that's not good. And so either there needs to be a way to fix that or there needs to be a way to fix that or there needs to be a way to fix that or you got to start looking. you got to start looking. you got to start looking. >> I love what you said about taking the >> I love what you said about taking the >> I love what you said about taking the temperature at multiple occasions temperature at multiple occasions temperature at multiple occasions because I'm sure we've all had days when because I'm sure we've all had days when because I'm sure we've all had days when we're like, I'm done. we're like, I'm done. we're like, I'm done. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's not the day to make a big >> That's not the day to make a big >> That's not the day to make a big decision. decision. decision. >> Not the day to make the big decision. >> Not the day to make the big decision. >> Not the day to make the big decision. >> It's over. I got tired. I hate everyone. >> It's over. I got tired. I hate everyone. >> It's over. I got tired. I hate everyone. Yes. And Yes. And Yes. And >> all the things. And so, how do you what >> all the things. And so, how do you what >> all the things. And so, how do you what what would be some advice you would give what would be some advice you would give what would be some advice you would give even on how to know if you're just too even on how to know if you're just too even on how to know if you're just too busy? What if you've said yes to too busy? What if you've said yes to too busy? What if you've said yes to too many things? many things? many things? >> Because we all have that tendency, >> Because we all have that tendency, >> Because we all have that tendency, right? Like some of us, well, right? Like some of us, well, right? Like some of us, well, >> I fall in the people pleaser crowd. So, >> I fall in the people pleaser crowd. So, >> I fall in the people pleaser crowd. So, it's not just that I don't like change, it's not just that I don't like change, it's not just that I don't like change, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> I don't want to disappoint anyone, >> I don't want to disappoint anyone, >> I don't want to disappoint anyone, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And so, I can find that I'm just busy >> And so, I can find that I'm just busy >> And so, I can find that I'm just busy with lots of good things. with lots of good things. with lots of good things. >> Yeah. And I you know so are there any >> Yeah. And I you know so are there any >> Yeah. And I you know so are there any measurements you take to say okay this measurements you take to say okay this measurements you take to say okay this is a sign that too many yeses have been is a sign that too many yeses have been is a sign that too many yeses have been given and some nos need to be given. I given and some nos need to be given. I given and some nos need to be given. I don't know if you have any like for me I don't know if you have any like for me I don't know if you have any like for me I have I have some certain things I look have I have some certain things I look have I have some certain things I look to and I'm like oh that's a sign. to and I'm like oh that's a sign. to and I'm like oh that's a sign. >> Yeah. I tend to think almost of life in >> Yeah. I tend to think almost of life in >> Yeah. I tend to think almost of life in like concentric circles and so um the like concentric circles and so um the like concentric circles and so um the Lord uh my the because he's given me a Lord uh my the because he's given me a Lord uh my the because he's given me a husband so I have to you know so got to husband so I have to you know so got to husband so I have to you know so got to put him in there. You got to put him in put him in there. You got to put him in put him in there. You got to put him in there and he's not optional and then the there and he's not optional and then the there and he's not optional and then the children like he's given not but children like he's given not but children like he's given not but everybody has their concentric circles everybody has their concentric circles everybody has their concentric circles right my local church you kind of move right my local church you kind of move right my local church you kind of move out right out right out right >> but but it's it's not trying to put me >> but but it's it's not trying to put me >> but but it's it's not trying to put me at the center of that but what it's at the center of that but what it's at the center of that but what it's saying is is my relationship with the saying is is my relationship with the saying is is my relationship with the Lord characterized by health by intimacy Lord characterized by health by intimacy Lord characterized by health by intimacy by flourishing is my rel and then I move by flourishing is my rel and then I move by flourishing is my rel and then I move out is my relationship with the people out is my relationship with the people out is my relationship with the people that he's put in my life so for me it's that he's put in my life so for me it's that he's put in my life so for me it's my husband and and then my children is my husband and and then my children is my husband and and then my children is it characterized Right? We all go it characterized Right? We all go it characterized Right? We all go through seasons where it might not be through seasons where it might not be through seasons where it might not be characterized by flourishing, but for characterized by flourishing, but for characterized by flourishing, but for the most part, am I spending the time it the most part, am I spending the time it the most part, am I spending the time it takes? Or am I pushing my relationship takes? Or am I pushing my relationship takes? Or am I pushing my relationship with God, my relationship with my with God, my relationship with my with God, my relationship with my family, uh my relationship with my local family, uh my relationship with my local family, uh my relationship with my local church out of the way so that I can go church out of the way so that I can go church out of the way so that I can go do, you know, something that's a that's do, you know, something that's a that's do, you know, something that's a that's a lot further out there in my in my view a lot further out there in my in my view a lot further out there in my in my view of the concentric circles. And so of the concentric circles. And so of the concentric circles. And so sometimes it's just even the sometimes it's just even the sometimes it's just even the prioritization of the things that that

prioritization of the things that that prioritization of the things that that are the non-negotiables. There are some are the non-negotiables. There are some are the non-negotiables. There are some things that we they're not optional. things that we they're not optional. things that we they're not optional. >> And so, um, most of what we're talking >> And so, um, most of what we're talking >> And so, um, most of what we're talking about are honestly optional. about are honestly optional. about are honestly optional. >> What did you say? You said you had a way >> What did you say? You said you had a way >> What did you say? You said you had a way of thinking about this. of thinking about this. of thinking about this. >> My first one is actually, am I not >> My first one is actually, am I not >> My first one is actually, am I not prioritizing time with the Lord? It's a prioritizing time with the Lord? It's a prioritizing time with the Lord? It's a sneaky little one. I know, sneaky little one. I know, sneaky little one. I know, >> you know, because you can it Oh, but >> you know, because you can it Oh, but >> you know, because you can it Oh, but what I'm doing so important, what I'm doing so important, what I'm doing so important, >> you know, I'm serving people or >> you know, I'm serving people or >> you know, I'm serving people or whatever. That's the first kind of whatever. That's the first kind of whatever. That's the first kind of check. check. check. >> The the other one actually is Mike. I'm >> The the other one actually is Mike. I'm >> The the other one actually is Mike. I'm I'm like you. Mike is really good one at I'm like you. Mike is really good one at I'm like you. Mike is really good one at telling me to say no, but he's also telling me to say no, but he's also telling me to say no, but he's also really good at pushing me out of the really good at pushing me out of the really good at pushing me out of the door. He's kind of the Gandalf to my door. He's kind of the Gandalf to my door. He's kind of the Gandalf to my proto >> because I can, you know, I can there >> because I can, you know, I can there were there were certain seasons of life were there were certain seasons of life were there were certain seasons of life I would say particularly when I had I would say particularly when I had I would say particularly when I had young children, I could have some young children, I could have some young children, I could have some fearful yeses, fearful yeses, fearful yeses, >> you know, and think, oh, >> you know, and think, oh, >> you know, and think, oh, >> I'm not supposed to do that right now or >> I'm not supposed to do that right now or >> I'm not supposed to do that right now or whatever. and he was like, "You should whatever. and he was like, "You should whatever. and he was like, "You should totally do that." And so having that totally do that." And so having that totally do that." And so having that person who's telling you, "Yeah, go do person who's telling you, "Yeah, go do person who's telling you, "Yeah, go do it." But also, it." But also, it." But also, >> I remember one time really distinctly >> I remember one time really distinctly >> I remember one time really distinctly and it was a really nice offer for and it was a really nice offer for and it was a really nice offer for someone to someone to someone to >> to work on this series of books type >> to work on this series of books type >> to work on this series of books type thing. I mean, you think this this might thing. I mean, you think this this might thing. I mean, you think this this might not come again. I It was early on not come again. I It was early on not come again. I It was early on >> in in publishing. I I really didn't know >> in in publishing. I I really didn't know >> in in publishing. I I really didn't know how many offers I would have. You know, how many offers I would have. You know, how many offers I would have. You know, you just don't know where you are. And you just don't know where you are. And you just don't know where you are. And so, um, somebody came, offered this so, um, somebody came, offered this so, um, somebody came, offered this thing, and he looked at me, he goes, "Do thing, and he looked at me, he goes, "Do thing, and he looked at me, he goes, "Do you really want to do that? It's not

you really want to do that? It's not you really want to do that? It's not really your lane." really your lane." really your lane." >> And he was exactly right. And it was a >> And he was exactly right. And it was a >> And he was exactly right. And it was a good, healthy no. good, healthy no. good, healthy no. >> Um, and and so having people who really >> Um, and and so having people who really >> Um, and and so having people who really know you know you know you >> and can say say no. But sometimes, I'll >> and can say say no. But sometimes, I'll >> and can say say no. But sometimes, I'll say this, some friends who are say this, some friends who are say this, some friends who are well-meaning, I think, want you just to well-meaning, I think, want you just to well-meaning, I think, want you just to say no all the time. Mhm. say no all the time. Mhm. say no all the time. Mhm. >> Do you have like they just want it like >> Do you have like they just want it like >> Do you have like they just want it like I think in the Christian we just want it I think in the Christian we just want it I think in the Christian we just want it to be easy for everyone. to be easy for everyone. to be easy for everyone. >> So are there times for sacrificial >> So are there times for sacrificial >> So are there times for sacrificial yeses? yeses? yeses? >> How how do we just you know I mean >> How how do we just you know I mean >> How how do we just you know I mean >> I don't know. You're probably asking the >> I don't know. You're probably asking the >> I don't know. You're probably asking the wrong person. I'm still working on my wrong person. I'm still working on my wrong person. I'm still working on my nose. nose. nose. >> Look, I'm the hobbit. I'm trying not to >> Look, I'm the hobbit. I'm trying not to >> Look, I'm the hobbit. I'm trying not to get out of the question is one I keep get out of the question is one I keep get out of the question is one I keep getting asked. Don't you? I just getting asked. Don't you? I just getting asked. Don't you? I just remember well I think we would all three remember well I think we would all three remember well I think we would all three say we've had an experience of having say we've had an experience of having say we've had an experience of having too many good options you know in a too many good options you know in a too many good options you know in a weird stage of life and weird stage of life and weird stage of life and >> an unexpected too many good options and >> an unexpected too many good options and >> an unexpected too many good options and I feel such a debt of gratitude to um my I feel such a debt of gratitude to um my I feel such a debt of gratitude to um my mentor and my pastor you know for the mentor and my pastor you know for the mentor and my pastor you know for the last 17 years who I could say what do last 17 years who I could say what do last 17 years who I could say what do you think I'd say they want me to do x y you think I'd say they want me to do x y you think I'd say they want me to do x y or z and he'd go tell them no or z and he'd go tell them no or z and he'd go tell them no >> well they want me to do tell them no >> well they want me to do tell them no >> well they want me to do tell them no >> wow >> wow >> wow >> tell them no tell them no and I but what >> tell them no tell them no and I but what >> tell them no tell them no and I but what if and he'd say tell them no because he if and he'd say tell them no because he if and he'd say tell them no because he knew you know, he had been in the same knew you know, he had been in the same knew you know, he had been in the same spaces and he understood and uh and I spaces and he understood and uh and I spaces and he understood and uh and I think what would I have done if I hadn't think what would I have done if I hadn't think what would I have done if I hadn't had the voice of someone who was further had the voice of someone who was further had the voice of someone who was further along and then it occurs to me this is along and then it occurs to me this is along and then it occurs to me this is this is the case in any this is the case in any this is the case in any >> you know situation in life is who who >> you know situation in life is who who >> you know situation in life is who who has who has been down this road before has who has been down this road before has who has been down this road before and it doesn't mean that you always and it doesn't mean that you always and it doesn't mean that you always agree with the tell them no. There might

agree with the tell them no. There might agree with the tell them no. There might be times where you go I think I want to be times where you go I think I want to be times where you go I think I want to say yes to this say yes to this say yes to this >> but um knowing my personality I need way >> but um knowing my personality I need way >> but um knowing my personality I need way more encouragement to say no than I do more encouragement to say no than I do more encouragement to say no than I do to say yes. And it sounds like you're to say yes. And it sounds like you're to say yes. And it sounds like you're maybe coming from and a lot of this maybe coming from and a lot of this maybe coming from and a lot of this really is knowing your own disposition really is knowing your own disposition really is knowing your own disposition toward decision making. toward decision making. toward decision making. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Well, and I think that whole idea that >> Well, and I think that whole idea that >> Well, and I think that whole idea that um women are saying this opportunity may um women are saying this opportunity may um women are saying this opportunity may never come again even though maybe they never come again even though maybe they never come again even though maybe they know deep in their souls or they're know deep in their souls or they're know deep in their souls or they're having people say this is not a great having people say this is not a great having people say this is not a great time in your life to say yes to this. time in your life to say yes to this. time in your life to say yes to this. the fear of but I want this is the kind the fear of but I want this is the kind the fear of but I want this is the kind of thing I want to do and if I don't say of thing I want to do and if I don't say of thing I want to do and if I don't say yes now and so I think all of us could yes now and so I think all of us could yes now and so I think all of us could testify to the nos that if the Lord has testify to the nos that if the Lord has testify to the nos that if the Lord has it for you it will find you it for you it will find you it for you it will find you >> it's going to come back I mean whatever >> it's going to come back I mean whatever >> it's going to come back I mean whatever it is that uh it's those fear-based I it is that uh it's those fear-based I it is that uh it's those fear-based I just kind of walked with a woman through just kind of walked with a woman through just kind of walked with a woman through this those fear-based yeses are are this those fear-based yeses are are this those fear-based yeses are are really worth stopping and saying in fact really worth stopping and saying in fact really worth stopping and saying in fact you know one of my favorite I mean you know one of my favorite I mean you know one of my favorite I mean You've heard me say this a thousand You've heard me say this a thousand You've heard me say this a thousand times, but one of my favorite quotes is times, but one of my favorite quotes is times, but one of my favorite quotes is from I think it's the the leadership from I think it's the the leadership from I think it's the the leadership handbook.

handbook. handbook. I we'll put it in the show notes, but I we'll put it in the show notes, but I we'll put it in the show notes, but it's leadership is learning to it's leadership is learning to it's leadership is learning to disappoint people at a rate they can disappoint people at a rate they can disappoint people at a rate they can absorb. I just it's it's true, right? absorb. I just it's it's true, right? absorb. I just it's it's true, right? >> Say it again because I was laughing when >> Say it again because I was laughing when >> Say it again because I was laughing when you said it. Say it again. you said it. Say it again. you said it. Say it again. >> That leadership is learning to >> That leadership is learning to >> That leadership is learning to disappoint people at a rate they can disappoint people at a rate they can disappoint people at a rate they can absorb. absorb. absorb. >> And I think there's just that was so >> And I think there's just that was so >> And I think there's just that was so freeing for me in leadership to say, I freeing for me in leadership to say, I freeing for me in leadership to say, I am going to disappoint you. uh I want to am going to disappoint you. uh I want to am going to disappoint you. uh I want to do it wisely. It doesn't all need to be do it wisely. It doesn't all need to be do it wisely. It doesn't all need to be in the same day like I don't have to in the same day like I don't have to in the same day like I don't have to disappoint everything about you know but disappoint everything about you know but disappoint everything about you know but but that we slowly our nos are but that we slowly our nos are but that we slowly our nos are disappointments to some people. They disappointments to some people. They disappointments to some people. They want us to say yes to that. And so that want us to say yes to that. And so that want us to say yes to that. And so that that confidence to say I'm actually that confidence to say I'm actually that confidence to say I'm actually willing to disappoint you on this. willing to disappoint you on this. willing to disappoint you on this. >> But I think if I were going to talk to >> But I think if I were going to talk to >> But I think if I were going to talk to younger me about this, what I would tell younger me about this, what I would tell younger me about this, what I would tell younger me is there are yeses and there younger me is there are yeses and there younger me is there are yeses and there are nos, but there are also not right are nos, but there are also not right are nos, but there are also not right nows. nows. nows. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And a not right now is very different. >> And a not right now is very different. >> And a not right now is very different. It means at some point that's going to It means at some point that's going to It means at some point that's going to be a yes, you know, but from what I can be a yes, you know, but from what I can be a yes, you know, but from what I can tell right now when I think about that, tell right now when I think about that, tell right now when I think about that, it feels more stressful than lifegiving. it feels more stressful than lifegiving. it feels more stressful than lifegiving. >> And when you are able to step out of a >> And when you are able to step out of a >> And when you are able to step out of a scarcity mindset around opportunities scarcity mindset around opportunities scarcity mindset around opportunities and realize, wait, the Lord will not and realize, wait, the Lord will not and realize, wait, the Lord will not give me a gift or a calling that he's give me a gift or a calling that he's give me a gift or a calling that he's going to let lie dormant going to let lie dormant going to let lie dormant >> like it will be used. I don't like >> like it will be used. I don't like >> like it will be used. I don't like I could have used you now. I don't know I could have used you now. I don't know I could have used you now. I don't know what to do. Yeah. I mean, think about what to do. Yeah. I mean, think about what to do. Yeah. I mean, think about really think about how we paint the really think about how we paint the really think about how we paint the character of God character of God character of God >> when we say that that he's and and this >> when we say that that he's and and this >> when we say that that he's and and this actually gets into a lot of like how we actually gets into a lot of like how we actually gets into a lot of like how we even think about the will of God for our even think about the will of God for our even think about the will of God for our lives. It's like you get this one

lives. It's like you get this one lives. It's like you get this one decision point and if you blow it decision point and if you blow it decision point and if you blow it >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Well, you know, two roads in a wood, you >> Well, you know, two roads in a wood, you >> Well, you know, two roads in a wood, you know. know. know. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> And that is just not My pastor said >> And that is just not My pastor said >> And that is just not My pastor said something uh a couple weeks ago in a something uh a couple weeks ago in a something uh a couple weeks ago in a sermon. He said, "What if the will of sermon. He said, "What if the will of sermon. He said, "What if the will of God for your life is not a dot but a God for your life is not a dot but a God for your life is not a dot but a circle?" M circle?" M circle?" M >> and I'm like >> and I'm like >> and I'm like >> that is so great. You know, in other >> that is so great. You know, in other >> that is so great. You know, in other words, there might be words, there might be words, there might be >> a number of ways that things could go >> a number of ways that things could go >> a number of ways that things could go morally neutral decision points morally neutral decision points morally neutral decision points >> that you could just >> that you could just >> that you could just >> pick one and trust the Lord. >> pick one and trust the Lord. >> pick one and trust the Lord. >> Or say, I don't get to pick one right >> Or say, I don't get to pick one right >> Or say, I don't get to pick one right now and trust the Lord. Right. now and trust the Lord. Right. now and trust the Lord. Right. >> And I just I know I've lived long enough >> And I just I know I've lived long enough >> And I just I know I've lived long enough now to know in the seasons where I now to know in the seasons where I now to know in the seasons where I thought but I'm not using X Y or Z skill thought but I'm not using X Y or Z skill thought but I'm not using X Y or Z skill or gift that I was actually growing or gift that I was actually growing or gift that I was actually growing >> internally in a way that meant when it >> internally in a way that meant when it >> internally in a way that meant when it was time to say yes that those things was time to say yes that those things was time to say yes that those things were going to be used in in the right were going to be used in in the right were going to be used in in the right season and in the right way. season and in the right way. season and in the right way. >> Yeah. And I think we're all kind of >> Yeah. And I think we're all kind of >> Yeah. And I think we're all kind of thankful for quieter years.

thankful for quieter years. thankful for quieter years. >> Yes. Where they were thinking and >> Yes. Where they were thinking and >> Yes. Where they were thinking and ruminating ruminating ruminating and had time you know, to develop. Have and had time you know, to develop. Have and had time you know, to develop. Have you ever seen an instance where your no you ever seen an instance where your no you ever seen an instance where your no allowed someone else to say yes and it allowed someone else to say yes and it allowed someone else to say yes and it actually was part of their actually was part of their actually was part of their sanctification? Does that make sense? I sanctification? Does that make sense? I sanctification? Does that make sense? I think we think, oh, but if I say no, it think we think, oh, but if I say no, it think we think, oh, but if I say no, it won't happen. won't happen. won't happen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But sometimes our no to to do something >> But sometimes our no to to do something >> But sometimes our no to to do something good creates space for someone else to good creates space for someone else to good creates space for someone else to say yes. say yes. say yes. >> Yeah. My yeses are always around seizing >> Yeah. My yeses are always around seizing >> Yeah. My yeses are always around seizing control. control. control. And so when I have to say, you know, And so when I have to say, you know, And so when I have to say, you know, it's like, well, I'm gonna do it because it's like, well, I'm gonna do it because it's like, well, I'm gonna do it because I'll do it better than you. And and then I'll do it better than you. And and then I'll do it better than you. And and then when I, you know, when I'm at the brim when I, you know, when I'm at the brim when I, you know, when I'm at the brim and I have to say no and I have to say no and I have to say no >> and then someone else steps in, I'm >> and then someone else steps in, I'm >> and then someone else steps in, I'm like, shoot, they did it better than I like, shoot, they did it better than I like, shoot, they did it better than I would have done it. would have done it. would have done it. >> They were actually, really great at it, >> They were actually, really great at it, >> They were actually, really great at it, >> supposed to be doing it. >> supposed to be doing it. >> supposed to be doing it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Have you guys seen that? Please don't >> Have you guys seen that? Please don't >> Have you guys seen that? Please don't leave me out here alone. Well, one thing leave me out here alone. Well, one thing leave me out here alone. Well, one thing I've loved, I remember when I used to, I've loved, I remember when I used to, I've loved, I remember when I used to, we would do adult Sunday school and um we would do adult Sunday school and um we would do adult Sunday school and um >> which we have since always like you Presbyterians, I since always like you Presbyterians, I know know know >> adult Sunday school.

>> adult Sunday school. >> adult Sunday school. >> Sorry, I'm fine. >> Sorry, I'm fine. >> Sorry, I'm fine. >> You're fine. Um and one thing I would >> You're fine. Um and one thing I would >> You're fine. Um and one thing I would always do is it it was actually um a way always do is it it was actually um a way always do is it it was actually um a way to bring other people along. I wouldn't to bring other people along. I wouldn't to bring other people along. I wouldn't ask them to teach the whole unit. let's ask them to teach the whole unit. let's ask them to teach the whole unit. let's say it was eight weeks, say it was eight weeks, say it was eight weeks, >> but allowing two of those to be taught >> but allowing two of those to be taught >> but allowing two of those to be taught by a younger woman, by a younger woman, by a younger woman, >> giving her the space. She didn't have to >> giving her the space. She didn't have to >> giving her the space. She didn't have to develop the whole scope and sequence, develop the whole scope and sequence, develop the whole scope and sequence, but she could start the process. Then but she could start the process. Then but she could start the process. Then the next time around, letting her teach the next time around, letting her teach the next time around, letting her teach more. And I mean, to be honest, for me, more. And I mean, to be honest, for me, more. And I mean, to be honest, for me, this was helping me because I felt like this was helping me because I felt like this was helping me because I felt like I had too much to do in women's I had too much to do in women's I had too much to do in women's ministry. ministry. ministry. >> But it takes time to develop other >> But it takes time to develop other >> But it takes time to develop other leaders. And it means actually looking leaders. And it means actually looking leaders. And it means actually looking at I am worn out. I am exhausted. who at I am worn out. I am exhausted. who at I am worn out. I am exhausted. who can I start to train so that they can can I start to train so that they can can I start to train so that they can help do some of this? So, I felt like help do some of this? So, I felt like help do some of this? So, I felt like the no to teaching all eight weeks the no to teaching all eight weeks the no to teaching all eight weeks >> actually allowed someone else to be >> actually allowed someone else to be >> actually allowed someone else to be trained so then eventually they can trained so then eventually they can trained so then eventually they can teach all eight weeks. teach all eight weeks. teach all eight weeks. >> And I think we see that in churches way >> And I think we see that in churches way >> And I think we see that in churches way too often where, you know, one woman too often where, you know, one woman too often where, you know, one woman kind of owns the whole thing. She's kind of owns the whole thing. She's kind of owns the whole thing. She's always she hosts every, always she hosts every, always she hosts every, >> you know, shower. She teaches every >> you know, shower. She teaches every >> you know, shower. She teaches every Bible study. She And it's like, man, Bible study. She And it's like, man, Bible study. She And it's like, man, make room. make say no to the things make room. make say no to the things make room. make say no to the things because if she leaves you know she because if she leaves you know she because if she leaves you know she leaves leaves leaves >> shuts down has to be rebuilt there's no >> shuts down has to be rebuilt there's no >> shuts down has to be rebuilt there's no room for and I always say look for those room for and I always say look for those room for and I always say look for those entry points and if you if you are entry points and if you if you are entry points and if you if you are invested if you are embedded in the life invested if you are embedded in the life invested if you are embedded in the life of the church and you are serving look of the church and you are serving look of the church and you are serving look for the places that are easy entry for the places that are easy entry for the places that are easy entry points and so I remember saying to my points and so I remember saying to my points and so I remember saying to my team one time we're having an event and

team one time we're having an event and team one time we're having an event and I said you know don't ask anybody on the I said you know don't ask anybody on the I said you know don't ask anybody on the leadership team to bring the brownies leadership team to bring the brownies leadership team to bring the brownies well I got the phone call who said can well I got the phone call who said can well I got the phone call who said can you bring the brownies. And I said, you bring the brownies. And I said, you bring the brownies. And I said, "No." And she said, "Well, I can't find "No." And she said, "Well, I can't find "No." And she said, "Well, I can't find anybody to bring the brownies." I said, anybody to bring the brownies." I said, anybody to bring the brownies." I said, "Well, then let me find somebody." So, I "Well, then let me find somebody." So, I "Well, then let me find somebody." So, I went through the directory, called I went through the directory, called I went through the directory, called I mean, this is just God's grace. This is mean, this is just God's grace. This is mean, this is just God's grace. This is one of those stories where it all works one of those stories where it all works one of those stories where it all works out. You know, it's a great example cuz out. You know, it's a great example cuz out. You know, it's a great example cuz it worked out the way I wanted it to. it worked out the way I wanted it to. it worked out the way I wanted it to. But she burst into tears. This woman But she burst into tears. This woman But she burst into tears. This woman that I called and said, "I have been that I called and said, "I have been that I called and said, "I have been looking for a way to serve. All I asked looking for a way to serve. All I asked looking for a way to serve. All I asked her to do was bring the brownies." But her to do was bring the brownies." But her to do was bring the brownies." But what she did was she showed up early and what she did was she showed up early and what she did was she showed up early and she helped set up and she built she helped set up and she built she helped set up and she built relationships. And three years later, relationships. And three years later, relationships. And three years later, she was president of the of the women's she was president of the of the women's she was president of the of the women's leadership team. leadership team. leadership team. >> Yeah, that's a really good story, >> Yeah, that's a really good story, >> Yeah, that's a really good story, >> right? It's a really good story. >> right? It's a really good story. >> right? It's a really good story. >> They all go that way. They all They all >> They all go that way. They all They all >> They all go that way. They all They all go that way if you just know when to say go that way if you just know when to say go that way if you just know when to say no. no. no. >> You just don't bake the brownies. >> You just don't bake the brownies. >> You just don't bake the brownies. >> Just don't make the brownies. >> Just don't make the brownies. >> Just don't make the brownies. >> We talked about like ministry nos. I >> We talked about like ministry nos. I >> We talked about like ministry nos. I mean, we're talking about ministry nos, mean, we're talking about ministry nos, mean, we're talking about ministry nos, but what about like just personal life but what about like just personal life but what about like just personal life nos? Like what about nos like with your nos? Like what about nos like with your nos? Like what about nos like with your family or your, you know, neighbors or family or your, you know, neighbors or family or your, you know, neighbors or whatever? I mean, there are always a whatever? I mean, there are always a whatever? I mean, there are always a million things trying to find their ways million things trying to find their ways million things trying to find their ways onto our calendar. And do you have a onto our calendar. And do you have a onto our calendar. And do you have a process for making sure that your process for making sure that your process for making sure that your calendar stays?

calendar stays? calendar stays? >> I say no to cooking. Oh, nice. >> I say no to cooking. Oh, nice. >> I say no to cooking. Oh, nice. Consistently. That's a good note for me. Consistently. That's a good note for me. Consistently. That's a good note for me. So, not just brownies, it's all cooking So, not just brownies, it's all cooking So, not just brownies, it's all cooking that you basically. Perfect. that you basically. Perfect. that you basically. Perfect. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I think you hit actually on something I >> I think you hit actually on something I >> I think you hit actually on something I wanted to talk about because one of my wanted to talk about because one of my wanted to talk about because one of my hardest is when I feel like I disappoint hardest is when I feel like I disappoint hardest is when I feel like I disappoint my kids. my kids. my kids. >> Okay. it. And and let me say this. I'm >> Okay. it. And and let me say this. I'm >> Okay. it. And and let me say this. I'm actually not disappointing them. I'm actually not disappointing them. I'm actually not disappointing them. I'm disappointing my own version of the disappointing my own version of the disappointing my own version of the mother I know that I should be. Let's be mother I know that I should be. Let's be mother I know that I should be. Let's be honest. honest. honest. >> The idealized version. >> The idealized version. >> The idealized version. >> I'm not living up to Melissa's version >> I'm not living up to Melissa's version >> I'm not living up to Melissa's version of motherhood, of motherhood, of motherhood, >> which which often involves the food put >> which which often involves the food put >> which which often involves the food put before them in the lunches that they before them in the lunches that they before them in the lunches that they went to school with. Um, and so it feels went to school with. Um, and so it feels went to school with. Um, and so it feels like I failed them with my no like like I failed them with my no like like I failed them with my no like being, you know, like they started being, you know, like they started being, you know, like they started packing their lunches way early, packing their lunches way early, packing their lunches way early, >> which means none of them >> which means none of them >> which means none of them >> eat vegetables on a regular basis. >> eat vegetables on a regular basis. >> eat vegetables on a regular basis. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> And it feels like, you know, a sense of >> And it feels like, you know, a sense of >> And it feels like, you know, a sense of failure. And I've had to say sometimes failure. And I've had to say sometimes failure. And I've had to say sometimes to myself, to myself, to myself, >> it was actually a category I was okay >> it was actually a category I was okay >> it was actually a category I was okay failing at. failing at. failing at. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like we we can't say yes to everything.

>> Like we we can't say yes to everything. >> Like we we can't say yes to everything. I wasn't okay failing at getting the I wasn't okay failing at getting the I wasn't okay failing at getting the word into my kids' lives. word into my kids' lives. word into my kids' lives. >> Yeah. But sometimes we can't do >> Yeah. But sometimes we can't do >> Yeah. But sometimes we can't do everything even with our kids. everything even with our kids. everything even with our kids. >> Um and and what I can say, I'm thankful >> Um and and what I can say, I'm thankful >> Um and and what I can say, I'm thankful to look back and say things I thought to look back and say things I thought to look back and say things I thought were going to be failures. Like when I were going to be failures. Like when I were going to be failures. Like when I started working, I I went back to work started working, I I went back to work started working, I I went back to work sooner than I would have liked in my sooner than I would have liked in my sooner than I would have liked in my ideal motherhood scenario. Um, and so I ideal motherhood scenario. Um, and so I ideal motherhood scenario. Um, and so I felt I felt that rub, felt I felt that rub, felt I felt that rub, >> but my kids would all say to me, they >> but my kids would all say to me, they >> but my kids would all say to me, they say to me now, say to me now, say to me now, >> you having other things you were about >> you having other things you were about >> you having other things you were about actually helped me learn independence. I actually helped me learn independence. I actually helped me learn independence. I couldn't see the beginning to the end. couldn't see the beginning to the end. couldn't see the beginning to the end. The Lord was actually doing something The Lord was actually doing something The Lord was actually doing something good for my kids by me not being able to good for my kids by me not being able to good for my kids by me not being able to give them every Yes. give them every Yes. give them every Yes. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And but but I think we're okay with that >> And but but I think we're okay with that >> And but but I think we're okay with that when it comes to Yeah. You can't have when it comes to Yeah. You can't have when it comes to Yeah. You can't have every every toy. We're totally fine with every every toy. We're totally fine with every every toy. We're totally fine with no but when it involves oh I missed that no but when it involves oh I missed that no but when it involves oh I missed that sporting event because I was at a sporting event because I was at a sporting event because I was at a ministry event or I was doing something ministry event or I was doing something ministry event or I was doing something else that's those are hard hard things else that's those are hard hard things else that's those are hard hard things to miss to miss to miss >> or I missed that ministry event because >> or I missed that ministry event because >> or I missed that ministry event because I was at the sporting event like it's I was at the sporting event like it's I was at the sporting event like it's not formulaic. It's not like oh if it's not formulaic. It's not like oh if it's not formulaic. It's not like oh if it's at church it's always the right yes. I at church it's always the right yes. I at church it's always the right yes. I mean, I think sometimes the call is to mean, I think sometimes the call is to mean, I think sometimes the call is to it's that tension. Like sometimes you it's that tension. Like sometimes you it's that tension. Like sometimes you tell your kids, tell your kids, tell your kids, >> I'm I'm not going to be home for two >> I'm I'm not going to be home for two >> I'm I'm not going to be home for two hours because this is a really important hours because this is a really important hours because this is a really important disciplehip opportunity. And other times disciplehip opportunity. And other times disciplehip opportunity. And other times you tell the person, I'm sorry I can't you tell the person, I'm sorry I can't you tell the person, I'm sorry I can't meet with you tonight because I need to meet with you tonight because I need to meet with you tonight because I need to be home. So it's not formulaic.

be home. So it's not formulaic. be home. So it's not formulaic. >> One of the most famous Wilin family >> One of the most famous Wilin family >> One of the most famous Wilin family knows was uh when our kids were little, knows was uh when our kids were little, knows was uh when our kids were little, we put them in a Wana's, you know, we put them in a Wana's, you know, we put them in a Wana's, you know, scripture memory that who doesn't want scripture memory that who doesn't want scripture memory that who doesn't want that for their kids? that for their kids? that for their kids? >> But they weren't going to bed until like >> But they weren't going to bed until like >> But they weren't going to bed until like 9:00 on a Wednesday night. and Thursdays 9:00 on a Wednesday night. and Thursdays 9:00 on a Wednesday night. and Thursdays were brutal. were brutal. were brutal. >> And so we pulled the kids out of >> And so we pulled the kids out of >> And so we pulled the kids out of scripture memory. You know why? Because scripture memory. You know why? Because scripture memory. You know why? Because we hate the Bible. we hate the Bible. we hate the Bible. >> Well, I mean, you're not big on biblical >> Well, I mean, you're not big on biblical >> Well, I mean, you're not big on biblical literatur with you, you know? And so that was a with you, you know? And so that was a that was one of our probably most that was one of our probably most that was one of our probably most memorable ones, but I think there are memorable ones, but I think there are memorable ones, but I think there are other like softer ones that maybe no one other like softer ones that maybe no one other like softer ones that maybe no one outside of your home is super aware of. outside of your home is super aware of. outside of your home is super aware of. things like I remember thinking my house things like I remember thinking my house things like I remember thinking my house is just not going to be as clean as is just not going to be as clean as is just not going to be as clean as >> maybe it was in a former season of life >> maybe it was in a former season of life >> maybe it was in a former season of life >> and I'm going to need to be okay with >> and I'm going to need to be okay with >> and I'm going to need to be okay with that because I'm going to lose my mind that because I'm going to lose my mind that because I'm going to lose my mind if I'm trying to manage something that if I'm trying to manage something that if I'm trying to manage something that I'm really the only one recognizing I'm I'm really the only one recognizing I'm I'm really the only one recognizing I'm the one who is wrapped around the axle the one who is wrapped around the axle the one who is wrapped around the axle about this. My four-year-old does not about this. My four-year-old does not about this. My four-year-old does not care if the house is spotless. That's care if the house is spotless. That's care if the house is spotless. That's me.

me. me. >> And it was going to impact my >> And it was going to impact my >> And it was going to impact my relationship. you know that when your relationship. you know that when your relationship. you know that when your stress level shoots up and I think stress level shoots up and I think stress level shoots up and I think that's with your concentric circles. that's with your concentric circles. that's with your concentric circles. It's like It's like It's like >> let's say even for the sake of argument >> let's say even for the sake of argument >> let's say even for the sake of argument that everything fits on the calendar but that everything fits on the calendar but that everything fits on the calendar but if I'm a terrible human trying to manage if I'm a terrible human trying to manage if I'm a terrible human trying to manage the calendar then then it doesn't all the calendar then then it doesn't all the calendar then then it doesn't all fit on the calendar. But it's hard fit on the calendar. But it's hard fit on the calendar. But it's hard especially because we so often are especially because we so often are especially because we so often are comparing ourselves to someone else's comparing ourselves to someone else's comparing ourselves to someone else's >> capacity >> capacity >> capacity >> uh or someone else's commitments >> uh or someone else's commitments >> uh or someone else's commitments >> or the capacity that they're >> or the capacity that they're >> or the capacity that they're highlighting on social media. highlighting on social media. highlighting on social media. >> Well, right. Well, like people will say >> Well, right. Well, like people will say >> Well, right. Well, like people will say to me, "How did you write Bible studies to me, "How did you write Bible studies to me, "How did you write Bible studies when your kids were little?" And I'm when your kids were little?" And I'm when your kids were little?" And I'm like, "They don't have baby books, like, "They don't have baby books, like, "They don't have baby books, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> My kids don't have baby books." >> My kids don't have baby books." >> My kids don't have baby books." >> Mine don't either. But I wasn't writing >> Mine don't either. But I wasn't writing >> Mine don't either. But I wasn't writing Bible studies either. I just Bible studies either. I just Bible studies either. I just >> I actually have them, but they never >> I actually have them, but they never >> I actually have them, but they never look at them. So, good choice. look at them. So, good choice. look at them. So, good choice. >> I wrote stuff in them, but Calvin's >> I wrote stuff in them, but Calvin's >> I wrote stuff in them, but Calvin's like, "Did you take one picture of me as like, "Did you take one picture of me as like, "Did you take one picture of me as a baby?" You know, and there were we a baby?" You know, and there were we a baby?" You know, and there were we just just just >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> There were there were always there were >> There were there were always there were >> There were there were always there were tradeoffs. tradeoffs. tradeoffs. >> Yeah. And um but you know, I think we >> Yeah. And um but you know, I think we >> Yeah. And um but you know, I think we also forget that like our family get to also forget that like our family get to also forget that like our family get to see the whole sweep of our lives and we see the whole sweep of our lives and we see the whole sweep of our lives and we feel like we'll be judged against one feel like we'll be judged against one feel like we'll be judged against one moment or one season or one thing we moment or one season or one thing we moment or one season or one thing we said no to is going to be the thing said no to is going to be the thing said no to is going to be the thing they're always going to remember. And they're always going to remember. And they're always going to remember. And our relationships with our family, with our relationships with our family, with our relationships with our family, with our children or our parents, with our children or our parents, with our children or our parents, with siblings, they're the sum of a of a of a siblings, they're the sum of a of a of a siblings, they're the sum of a of a of a thousand cumulative events. And so, but thousand cumulative events. And so, but thousand cumulative events. And so, but we tend to be really hard on ourselves we tend to be really hard on ourselves we tend to be really hard on ourselves for the one or two things that we for the one or two things that we for the one or two things that we >> we left undone or >> we left undone or >> we left undone or >> overcommitted to or

>> overcommitted to or >> overcommitted to or >> whatever said no to. >> whatever said no to. >> whatever said no to. >> I think you hit on a really good thing >> I think you hit on a really good thing >> I think you hit on a really good thing there, which is another sign like there, which is another sign like there, which is another sign like roadpost. roadpost. roadpost. >> If I am a terrible human being, >> If I am a terrible human being, >> If I am a terrible human being, >> meaning and what we mean really by that >> meaning and what we mean really by that >> meaning and what we mean really by that if there's no fruit in our good works. if there's no fruit in our good works. if there's no fruit in our good works. So, you can bear So, you can bear So, you can bear >> like good works, but they have no fruit. >> like good works, but they have no fruit. >> like good works, but they have no fruit. There's no fruitfulness in them. meaning There's no fruitfulness in them. meaning There's no fruitfulness in them. meaning there's no love, joy, peace, patience, there's no love, joy, peace, patience, there's no love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, kindness, kindness, >> self-control is not being born. >> self-control is not being born. >> self-control is not being born. >> That that's a sign that there needs to >> That that's a sign that there needs to >> That that's a sign that there needs to be a no somewhere. be a no somewhere. be a no somewhere. >> I would say something's wrong >> I would say something's wrong >> I would say something's wrong >> because the good work >> because the good work >> because the good work >> might there but but it actually says >> might there but but it actually says >> might there but but it actually says bearing fruit in every good work. bearing fruit in every good work. bearing fruit in every good work. >> And so it can look like oh but I'm doing >> And so it can look like oh but I'm doing >> And so it can look like oh but I'm doing all this important stuff. all this important stuff. all this important stuff. >> I you know I'm volunteering at the >> I you know I'm volunteering at the >> I you know I'm volunteering at the church. I'm helping at the school. I'm church. I'm helping at the school. I'm church. I'm helping at the school. I'm taking, you know, food to the soup taking, you know, food to the soup taking, you know, food to the soup kitchen. I'm doing all this, but we're kitchen. I'm doing all this, but we're kitchen. I'm doing all this, but we're miserable to be around. miserable to be around. miserable to be around. >> Well, and that was another one of my >> Well, and that was another one of my >> Well, and that was another one of my concentric circles is who am I in the concentric circles is who am I in the concentric circles is who am I in the kitchen when I'm making dinner and kitchen when I'm making dinner and kitchen when I'm making dinner and nobody's watching? Well, yeah. The few nobody's watching? Well, yeah. The few nobody's watching? Well, yeah. The few times I make dinner and you know, who am times I make dinner and you know, who am times I make dinner and you know, who am I to my the people that are in that I to my the people that are in that I to my the people that are in that room? Am I a jerk because I'm trying to room? Am I a jerk because I'm trying to room? Am I a jerk because I'm trying to go do something else? because that's go do something else? because that's go do something else? because that's another place how what is our private, another place how what is our private, another place how what is our private, you know, our private hidden you know, our private hidden you know, our private hidden faithfulness like um not just our look faithfulness like um not just our look faithfulness like um not just our look what I'm doing where everybody can see what I'm doing where everybody can see what I'm doing where everybody can see the things that are on the calendar that the things that are on the calendar that the things that are on the calendar that you're out that you're out doing. So you're out that you're out doing. So you're out that you're out doing. So >> yeah.

>> yeah. >> yeah. >> Um yeah, what would you guys say about >> Um yeah, what would you guys say about >> Um yeah, what would you guys say about the role of social media in our yeses the role of social media in our yeses the role of social media in our yeses and our nos? and our nos? and our nos? >> Oh, it's not a problem for me. I don't >> Oh, it's not a problem for me. I don't >> Oh, it's not a problem for me. I don't know if it's a problem for you guys, but know if it's a problem for you guys, but know if it's a problem for you guys, but >> I'm kind of terrified >> I'm kind of terrified >> I'm kind of terrified when you really Yeah. I I mean to look when you really Yeah. I I mean to look when you really Yeah. I I mean to look at how many hours it actually has a at how many hours it actually has a at how many hours it actually has a record. record. record. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> If thou, oh Lord, kept a record of sins. >> If thou, oh Lord, kept a record of sins. >> If thou, oh Lord, kept a record of sins. >> And then every week it pops up on your >> And then every week it pops up on your >> And then every week it pops up on your phone. This is how many hours you spent. phone. This is how many hours you spent. phone. This is how many hours you spent. >> Oh no. I probably silence that little >> Oh no. I probably silence that little >> Oh no. I probably silence that little voice popping up a little. voice popping up a little. voice popping up a little. >> How many things do we say no to because >> How many things do we say no to because >> How many things do we say no to because we've said the yes to the scrolling or we've said the yes to the scrolling or we've said the yes to the scrolling or then even the the images of how you know then even the the images of how you know then even the the images of how you know the person who has their life. I mean, the person who has their life. I mean, the person who has their life. I mean, they they have the chickens. They make they they have the chickens. They make they they have the chickens. They make the sourdough. They look great. They're the sourdough. They look great. They're the sourdough. They look great. They're they can they can, you know, teach you they can they can, you know, teach you they can they can, you know, teach you how to stay fit and do your hair and do how to stay fit and do your hair and do how to stay fit and do your hair and do your and do the chickens and do the kids your and do the chickens and do the kids your and do the chickens and do the kids and do it's everything. And then you and do it's everything. And then you and do it's everything. And then you think, what are they saying no to think, what are they saying no to think, what are they saying no to >> in order to perpetuate that particular >> in order to perpetuate that particular >> in order to perpetuate that particular narrative that none of us can live up narrative that none of us can live up narrative that none of us can live up to?

to? to? >> Yeah. Well, and the problem with social >> Yeah. Well, and the problem with social >> Yeah. Well, and the problem with social media, right, you see a little glimpse media, right, you see a little glimpse media, right, you see a little glimpse into all these different people's lives into all these different people's lives into all these different people's lives >> and then it's just you kind of walk away >> and then it's just you kind of walk away >> and then it's just you kind of walk away feeling like a collective failure. feeling like a collective failure. feeling like a collective failure. >> Oh, I'm supposed to do that eating >> Oh, I'm supposed to do that eating >> Oh, I'm supposed to do that eating program and I'm supposed to do, you program and I'm supposed to do, you program and I'm supposed to do, you know, that sourdough bread or whatever know, that sourdough bread or whatever know, that sourdough bread or whatever it's it's going to be and then that it's it's going to be and then that it's it's going to be and then that workout thing that she's talking about workout thing that she's talking about workout thing that she's talking about and make sure I have that new purse for and make sure I have that new purse for and make sure I have that new purse for the season because that's happening. And the season because that's happening. And the season because that's happening. And so I mean, how do we battle that? That so I mean, how do we battle that? That so I mean, how do we battle that? That is a real thing in our culture. I think is a real thing in our culture. I think is a real thing in our culture. I think that makes you feel busy. that makes you feel busy. that makes you feel busy. >> It's almost like it's calling out to you >> It's almost like it's calling out to you >> It's almost like it's calling out to you >> and in a lot of ways with false >> and in a lot of ways with false >> and in a lot of ways with false promises. promises. promises. >> If you have this, >> If you have this, >> If you have this, >> you know, then your life will be >> you know, then your life will be >> you know, then your life will be settled. I mean, that's what marketing settled. I mean, that's what marketing settled. I mean, that's what marketing is kind of trying to do to you, you is kind of trying to do to you, you is kind of trying to do to you, you know, pull you in and say, "You really know, pull you in and say, "You really know, pull you in and say, "You really need this to have a satisfying life." need this to have a satisfying life." need this to have a satisfying life." How do we battle that lie? How do we battle that lie? How do we battle that lie? Well, I think like a word I've learned Well, I think like a word I've learned Well, I think like a word I've learned to look for and be like, "Nope." Is it to look for and be like, "Nope." Is it to look for and be like, "Nope." Is it says the viral fill in the blank, you says the viral fill in the blank, you says the viral fill in the blank, you know, like the viral recipe or the viral know, like the viral recipe or the viral know, like the viral recipe or the viral cleanse or the viral cleanse or the viral cleanse or the viral uh thing to hang your wreath on this uh thing to hang your wreath on this uh thing to hang your wreath on this Christmas or whatever it is because what Christmas or whatever it is because what Christmas or whatever it is because what they're implying is everybody's doing they're implying is everybody's doing they're implying is everybody's doing this this this >> and then I'm like right back in middle >> and then I'm like right back in middle >> and then I'm like right back in middle school again, you know, where I'm going school again, you know, where I'm going school again, you know, where I'm going to I'm supposed to chase what everybody to I'm supposed to chase what everybody to I'm supposed to chase what everybody is doing. Well, if it's viral, it must is doing. Well, if it's viral, it must is doing. Well, if it's viral, it must be amazing. Yeah.

be amazing. Yeah. be amazing. Yeah. >> Um, and so I think some of it is I do >> Um, and so I think some of it is I do >> Um, and so I think some of it is I do think some people first I think some think some people first I think some think some people first I think some people are better at this than others. people are better at this than others. people are better at this than others. And so again, self-awareness is key, And so again, self-awareness is key, And so again, self-awareness is key, right? Like I don't feel a strong sense right? Like I don't feel a strong sense right? Like I don't feel a strong sense of, "Oh, of, "Oh, of, "Oh, >> this is what I'm supposed to do." And so >> this is what I'm supposed to do." And so >> this is what I'm supposed to do." And so I feel like I can kind of like duck in I feel like I can kind of like duck in I feel like I can kind of like duck in and peek at some of it and then be like, and peek at some of it and then be like, and peek at some of it and then be like, "Y'all crazy." Or, "Oh, I will buy this "Y'all crazy." Or, "Oh, I will buy this "Y'all crazy." Or, "Oh, I will buy this one little thing here." you know, and one little thing here." you know, and one little thing here." you know, and and there are times when I feel like I'm and there are times when I feel like I'm and there are times when I feel like I'm more susceptible to the pull of it than more susceptible to the pull of it than more susceptible to the pull of it than to to to >> uh than than not. And a lot of that >> uh than than not. And a lot of that >> uh than than not. And a lot of that depends on my state of mind. And so I do depends on my state of mind. And so I do depends on my state of mind. And so I do again like again like again like >> there the action is interesting to me, >> there the action is interesting to me, >> there the action is interesting to me, but the motive is more interesting to but the motive is more interesting to but the motive is more interesting to me. And so I think when I'm using it me. And so I think when I'm using it me. And so I think when I'm using it sort of to self soothe sort of to self soothe sort of to self soothe >> uh because I, you know, I I do think >> uh because I, you know, I I do think >> uh because I, you know, I I do think about how you can find these historic about how you can find these historic about how you can find these historic images of people all on the subway in images of people all on the subway in images of people all on the subway in 1880 and no one is talking to each 1880 and no one is talking to each 1880 and no one is talking to each other. They're all reading the paper. other. They're all reading the paper. other. They're all reading the paper. >> So, and I I think about how a lot of my >> So, and I I think about how a lot of my >> So, and I I think about how a lot of my social media use mimics what reading the social media use mimics what reading the social media use mimics what reading the paper used to be. paper used to be. paper used to be. >> That's right. And so, it's not >> That's right. And so, it's not >> That's right. And so, it's not inherently bad. It's what I need from inherently bad. It's what I need from inherently bad. It's what I need from it.

it. it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And um depending on the day, what I need >> And um depending on the day, what I need >> And um depending on the day, what I need from it might be innocuous or it might from it might be innocuous or it might from it might be innocuous or it might be potentially harmful. So, be potentially harmful. So, be potentially harmful. So, >> but the way it impacts our decision-m >> but the way it impacts our decision-m >> but the way it impacts our decision-m and the way it impacts we are going to and the way it impacts we are going to and the way it impacts we are going to say yes or no to and what we even feel say yes or no to and what we even feel say yes or no to and what we even feel like we have the freedom. It's vying for like we have the freedom. It's vying for like we have the freedom. It's vying for our finite resources and we we but it our finite resources and we we but it our finite resources and we we but it gives the the uh implication it makes us gives the the uh implication it makes us gives the the uh implication it makes us think that they are not finite. I want think that they are not finite. I want think that they are not finite. I want all of your time and you've got plenty. all of your time and you've got plenty. all of your time and you've got plenty. I want all of your money. You've got I want all of your money. You've got I want all of your money. You've got plenty. plenty. plenty. >> Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting. We >> Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting. We >> Yeah. Well, I think it's interesting. We often think of budgeting money. often think of budgeting money. often think of budgeting money. >> Yes. But we think of time >> Yes. But we think of time >> Yes. But we think of time >> as a renewable resource. >> as a renewable resource. >> as a renewable resource. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it's actually you can actually lose >> And it's actually you can actually lose >> And it's actually you can actually lose all your money and gain money. all your money and gain money. all your money and gain money. >> You can get it back if you can't get >> You can get it back if you can't get >> You can get it back if you can't get back. back. back. >> You never get the time back. So are >> You never get the time back. So are >> You never get the time back. So are there any verses that y'all found that there any verses that y'all found that there any verses that y'all found that really speak that kind of, really speak that kind of, really speak that kind of, >> you know, form a check on your heart >> you know, form a check on your heart >> you know, form a check on your heart when you're thinking about things like when you're thinking about things like when you're thinking about things like time and stewardship of that time.

time and stewardship of that time. time and stewardship of that time. >> Yeah. Yeah, I think in light of this >> Yeah. Yeah, I think in light of this >> Yeah. Yeah, I think in light of this conversation, knowing, discerning, conversation, knowing, discerning, conversation, knowing, discerning, trying to figure out what to say yes and trying to figure out what to say yes and trying to figure out what to say yes and no to. I mean, Ecclesiastes 3, just the no to. I mean, Ecclesiastes 3, just the no to. I mean, Ecclesiastes 3, just the whole list of there is a time for this whole list of there is a time for this whole list of there is a time for this and a time for that, and there they're and a time for that, and there they're and a time for that, and there they're they're positioned against each other. they're positioned against each other. they're positioned against each other. And so, um, verse three, a time to tear And so, um, verse three, a time to tear And so, um, verse three, a time to tear down and a time to build. And I think down and a time to build. And I think down and a time to build. And I think just even as we're thinking about what just even as we're thinking about what just even as we're thinking about what we're saying yes to and what we're we're saying yes to and what we're we're saying yes to and what we're saying no to, that that there is a time saying no to, that that there is a time saying no to, that that there is a time for both. That's it's not formulaic. We for both. That's it's not formulaic. We for both. That's it's not formulaic. We keep saying that, but there is a time to keep saying that, but there is a time to keep saying that, but there is a time to say yes and there is a time to say no. say yes and there is a time to say no. say yes and there is a time to say no. And it could be for the exact same And it could be for the exact same And it could be for the exact same thing. thing. thing. >> Uh and so even in your life, it might be >> Uh and so even in your life, it might be >> Uh and so even in your life, it might be it's not the time for you to say yes. it's not the time for you to say yes. it's not the time for you to say yes. And maybe in someone else's life, it is And maybe in someone else's life, it is And maybe in someone else's life, it is the time to say yes for the exact same the time to say yes for the exact same the time to say yes for the exact same thing. And so that that freedom, even as thing. And so that that freedom, even as thing. And so that that freedom, even as you were saying the dot in the circle, I you were saying the dot in the circle, I you were saying the dot in the circle, I had a a friend who said it's a lot of us had a a friend who said it's a lot of us had a a friend who said it's a lot of us tend to view God's will like a maze. And tend to view God's will like a maze. And tend to view God's will like a maze. And we've got to figure out, you know, we've got to figure out, you know, we've got to figure out, you know, almost like a puzzle, like am I supposed almost like a puzzle, like am I supposed almost like a puzzle, like am I supposed to turn right here or left here? how do to turn right here or left here? how do to turn right here or left here? how do I get, you know, to the end of this I get, you know, to the end of this I get, you know, to the end of this thing? And and he said, you know, it's thing? And and he said, you know, it's thing? And and he said, you know, it's really more like a big field that it's really more like a big field that it's really more like a big field that it's the same thing, the circle. There's that the same thing, the circle. There's that the same thing, the circle. There's that that expanse of freedom within God's that expanse of freedom within God's that expanse of freedom within God's will. Like, we know God's will for us. 1 will. Like, we know God's will for us. 1 will. Like, we know God's will for us. 1 Thessalonians 4:3 is our sanctification.

Thessalonians 4:3 is our sanctification. Thessalonians 4:3 is our sanctification. And so, you know, there are there are And so, you know, there are there are And so, you know, there are there are things that are outside of God's will, things that are outside of God's will, things that are outside of God's will, right? And we know that because we have right? And we know that because we have right? And we know that because we have his word. But within that, there is the his word. But within that, there is the his word. But within that, there is the freedom to discern and to and he wants freedom to discern and to and he wants freedom to discern and to and he wants us to pray about it. He wants us to talk us to pray about it. He wants us to talk us to pray about it. He wants us to talk to other believers. He wants us to be to other believers. He wants us to be to other believers. He wants us to be dependent on each other in this process dependent on each other in this process dependent on each other in this process of knowing when to say yes or no. But of knowing when to say yes or no. But of knowing when to say yes or no. But but even in Ecclesiastes, it's like it's but even in Ecclesiastes, it's like it's but even in Ecclesiastes, it's like it's a time for for both of them. a time for for both of them. a time for for both of them. >> What about you, Jen? >> What about you, Jen? >> What about you, Jen? >> Um my I mean I always think about >> Um my I mean I always think about >> Um my I mean I always think about Ephesians 5:16, which I had to memorize Ephesians 5:16, which I had to memorize Ephesians 5:16, which I had to memorize to go to summer camp. So that means I to go to summer camp. So that means I to go to summer camp. So that means I probably know it in the King James. probably know it in the King James. probably know it in the King James. >> But it's be careful then how you live, >> But it's be careful then how you live, >> But it's be careful then how you live, not as unwise, but as wise, redeeming not as unwise, but as wise, redeeming not as unwise, but as wise, redeeming the time for the days are evil. I think the time for the days are evil. I think the time for the days are evil. I think that the the newer translations say that the the newer translations say that the the newer translations say making the most of the time or making making the most of the time or making making the most of the time or making the best use of the time which indicates the best use of the time which indicates the best use of the time which indicates that there are better and worse ways to that there are better and worse ways to that there are better and worse ways to use our time which I think is what we use our time which I think is what we use our time which I think is what we get into when people are talking about get into when people are talking about get into when people are talking about what's God's will for my life and I you what's God's will for my life and I you what's God's will for my life and I you know I want to choose the thing that's know I want to choose the thing that's know I want to choose the thing that's the best I want to maximize my the best I want to maximize my the best I want to maximize my >> my time um but human decision-m doesn't >> my time um but human decision-m doesn't >> my time um but human decision-m doesn't really work like that and I feel a lot really work like that and I feel a lot really work like that and I feel a lot of comfort in remembering the times of comfort in remembering the times of comfort in remembering the times where I have not made the best use of where I have not made the best use of where I have not made the best use of the time and the Lord Lord still the time and the Lord Lord still the time and the Lord Lord still sanctified me.

sanctified me. sanctified me. >> And so I do like just remembering that >> And so I do like just remembering that >> And so I do like just remembering that um bad decision making as a believer is um bad decision making as a believer is um bad decision making as a believer is never a deal breakaker. It can sometimes never a deal breakaker. It can sometimes never a deal breakaker. It can sometimes be the very means by which our be the very means by which our be the very means by which our sanctification occurs. sanctification occurs. sanctification occurs. >> And not only that, good decision- making >> And not only that, good decision- making >> And not only that, good decision- making doesn't always yield good fruit, doesn't always yield good fruit, doesn't always yield good fruit, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> It can yield self-righteousness. >> It can yield self-righteousness. >> It can yield self-righteousness. And um and so I just think that we can't And um and so I just think that we can't And um and so I just think that we can't make the assumption I I often think that make the assumption I I often think that make the assumption I I often think that we reduce the will of God to the gospel we reduce the will of God to the gospel we reduce the will of God to the gospel of good decision-making, which is a of good decision-making, which is a of good decision-making, which is a false gospel. false gospel. false gospel. >> It's karma. >> It's karma. >> It's karma. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so, um I think there's a lot to be >> And so, um I think there's a lot to be >> And so, um I think there's a lot to be said for like, oh, I do want to redeem said for like, oh, I do want to redeem said for like, oh, I do want to redeem the time. the time. the time. >> Um but that doesn't mean that I always >> Um but that doesn't mean that I always >> Um but that doesn't mean that I always make the right choice. It means that if make the right choice. It means that if make the right choice. It means that if I make a choice that turns out to have I make a choice that turns out to have I make a choice that turns out to have not been great, then I seek wisdom again not been great, then I seek wisdom again not been great, then I seek wisdom again and I look for how to live in light of and I look for how to live in light of and I look for how to live in light of it. Mhm. it. Mhm. it. Mhm. >> I think that's a good point because it >> I think that's a good point because it >> I think that's a good point because it also you can actually make the exact also you can actually make the exact also you can actually make the exact right choice right choice right choice >> and and everything go wrong. >> and and everything go wrong. >> and and everything go wrong. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And I think we're really uncomfortable >> And I think we're really uncomfortable >> And I think we're really uncomfortable with that. We want to find out what with that. We want to find out what with that. We want to find out what God's will is God's will is God's will is >> because then he's in a bargain with us >> because then he's in a bargain with us >> because then he's in a bargain with us and now now you got to make sure it's and now now you got to make sure it's and now now you got to make sure it's going to be okay.

going to be okay. going to be okay. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Rather than listen to him say, >> Rather than listen to him say, >> Rather than listen to him say, >> "Hey, don't fear. Go forward. You don't >> "Hey, don't fear. Go forward. You don't >> "Hey, don't fear. Go forward. You don't know how it's going to turn out. I will know how it's going to turn out. I will know how it's going to turn out. I will be with you wherever you go. be with you wherever you go. be with you wherever you go. >> And that's true in the yesas and the >> And that's true in the yesas and the >> And that's true in the yesas and the nos, right? Yeah. nos, right? Yeah. nos, right? Yeah. >> And my mom used to always say, I don't >> And my mom used to always say, I don't >> And my mom used to always say, I don't want to dog on my mom. She was lovely. want to dog on my mom. She was lovely. want to dog on my mom. She was lovely. But she would always say with decisions But she would always say with decisions But she would always say with decisions like, check your peace meter. Do you like, check your peace meter. Do you like, check your peace meter. Do you feel peace about it? And I'm like, feel peace about it? And I'm like, feel peace about it? And I'm like, >> I think it was really sweet. But >> I think it was really sweet. But >> I think it was really sweet. But sometimes you feel no peace and you know sometimes you feel no peace and you know sometimes you feel no peace and you know it's the exact thing you should do, you it's the exact thing you should do, you it's the exact thing you should do, you know. And I always think about like the know. And I always think about like the know. And I always think about like the life of Christ. He made every right life of Christ. He made every right life of Christ. He made every right choice choice choice >> and look what happened to him. That's >> and look what happened to him. That's >> and look what happened to him. That's right. So um the idea that and that is right. So um the idea that and that is right. So um the idea that and that is not to dismiss the wisdom tradition that not to dismiss the wisdom tradition that not to dismiss the wisdom tradition that says when you choose well it will go says when you choose well it will go says when you choose well it will go well for you but not universally. So we well for you but not universally. So we well for you but not universally. So we don't there's not a God is not um God is don't there's not a God is not um God is don't there's not a God is not um God is not obligated not obligated not obligated >> right >> right >> right >> to respond to your good behavior with >> to respond to your good behavior with >> to respond to your good behavior with with some oh and now everything's going with some oh and now everything's going with some oh and now everything's going to go smooth. Well and what it will go to go smooth. Well and what it will go to go smooth. Well and what it will go well for you means well for you means well for you means >> God gets to define that not us. So, we >> God gets to define that not us. So, we >> God gets to define that not us. So, we look at that and we're like, "Oh, it's look at that and we're like, "Oh, it's look at that and we're like, "Oh, it's going to go well for me." Like, I know going to go well for me." Like, I know going to go well for me." Like, I know what I mean.

what I mean. what I mean. Let me talk about what that's going to Let me talk about what that's going to Let me talk about what that's going to look like. And God's like, "No, look like. And God's like, "No, look like. And God's like, "No, actually, what's what's going to go well actually, what's what's going to go well actually, what's what's going to go well for you by going badly for you?" for you by going badly for you?" for you by going badly for you?" >> Yeah. That you're going to be sanctified >> Yeah. That you're going to be sanctified >> Yeah. That you're going to be sanctified in the process. Yes. in the process. Yes. in the process. Yes. >> That's right. And and then in a lot of >> That's right. And and then in a lot of >> That's right. And and then in a lot of these verses that we even looked at, one these verses that we even looked at, one these verses that we even looked at, one thing we did we can say is that choosing thing we did we can say is that choosing thing we did we can say is that choosing to walk in opposition to God's ways to walk in opposition to God's ways to walk in opposition to God's ways while he of course is full of mercy and while he of course is full of mercy and while he of course is full of mercy and grace. grace. grace. >> In some ways it's the biggest waste of >> In some ways it's the biggest waste of >> In some ways it's the biggest waste of your time. your time. your time. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> I mean like we can just flat out say >> I mean like we can just flat out say >> I mean like we can just flat out say >> sin is always going to look enticing. I >> sin is always going to look enticing. I >> sin is always going to look enticing. I love you know um Precious Remedies love you know um Precious Remedies love you know um Precious Remedies Against Satan's Devices where he says Against Satan's Devices where he says Against Satan's Devices where he says Satan shows the bait and hides the hook. Satan shows the bait and hides the hook. Satan shows the bait and hides the hook. And I think that's a lot of the And I think that's a lot of the And I think that's a lot of the temptations. They're not actually like temptations. They're not actually like temptations. They're not actually like sinful sometime. I mean, like absolutely sinful sometime. I mean, like absolutely sinful sometime. I mean, like absolutely like, like, like, >> oh, go have an affair, >> oh, go have an affair, >> oh, go have an affair, >> but it can just be squandering. >> but it can just be squandering. >> but it can just be squandering. >> Cuz your time is a gift. >> Cuz your time is a gift. >> Cuz your time is a gift. >> Sloth. >> Sloth. >> Sloth. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. We really haven't I mean, you know, we We really haven't I mean, you know, we We really haven't I mean, you know, we really haven't touched on sort of how really haven't touched on sort of how really haven't touched on sort of how decision-m changes over the course of a decision-m changes over the course of a decision-m changes over the course of a lifetime, too, because in your earlier lifetime, too, because in your earlier lifetime, too, because in your earlier years, you're faced with a million years, you're faced with a million years, you're faced with a million decisions and in your latter years, you decisions and in your latter years, you decisions and in your latter years, you have very few.

have very few. have very few. >> People want like people are like, "What >> People want like people are like, "What >> People want like people are like, "What are you good for anymore?" are you good for anymore?" are you good for anymore?" >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. But um you become >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. But um you become >> Yeah. Yeah. Seriously. But um you become obsolete. The end. Okay. Thank you for obsolete. The end. Okay. Thank you for obsolete. The end. Okay. Thank you for joining us. No. Um but if you think joining us. No. Um but if you think joining us. No. Um but if you think about how um you know when someone knows about how um you know when someone knows about how um you know when someone knows they don't have a lot of time left like they don't have a lot of time left like they don't have a lot of time left like say they get a diagnosis and this is say they get a diagnosis and this is say they get a diagnosis and this is actually it's a they've done studies on actually it's a they've done studies on actually it's a they've done studies on this um they they undergo the narrowing this um they they undergo the narrowing this um they they undergo the narrowing of priorities if you were told you only of priorities if you were told you only of priorities if you were told you only have a year to live have a year to live have a year to live >> you would know exactly how to clear your >> you would know exactly how to clear your >> you would know exactly how to clear your calendar. calendar. calendar. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. And so I don't think it's a bad >> Exactly. And so I don't think it's a bad >> Exactly. And so I don't think it's a bad mental exercise to to sort of say okay mental exercise to to sort of say okay mental exercise to to sort of say okay well what if I didn't have a lot of time well what if I didn't have a lot of time well what if I didn't have a lot of time left what would I change? It doesn't left what would I change? It doesn't left what would I change? It doesn't mean you would change everything if you mean you would change everything if you mean you would change everything if you literally only had a year, but I think literally only had a year, but I think literally only had a year, but I think it can help. And I also saw a thing um it can help. And I also saw a thing um it can help. And I also saw a thing um you know on Instagram where I was not you know on Instagram where I was not you know on Instagram where I was not wasting my time and she was talking wasting my time and she was talking wasting my time and she was talking about um uh minimalism, you know, like about um uh minimalism, you know, like about um uh minimalism, you know, like like Maria Maria condoing. Marie like Maria Maria condoing. Marie like Maria Maria condoing. Marie Condoing, what's her name? Condoing, what's her name? Condoing, what's her name? >> U sparking joy. I don't know.

>> U sparking joy. I don't know. >> U sparking joy. I don't know. >> Getting your house decluttered is what >> Getting your house decluttered is what >> Getting your house decluttered is what it was about. And she said she'd been it was about. And she said she'd been it was about. And she said she'd been asking the wrong question. that the asking the wrong question. that the asking the wrong question. that the question she'd been asking was, "Do I question she'd been asking was, "Do I question she'd been asking was, "Do I need this?" And the right question was, need this?" And the right question was, need this?" And the right question was, "Can I live without this?" "Can I live without this?" "Can I live without this?" >> Because she'd look at, you know, all >> Because she'd look at, you know, all >> Because she'd look at, you know, all these and be like, "Yeah, I could live these and be like, "Yeah, I could live these and be like, "Yeah, I could live without that. Yeah, I could live without without that. Yeah, I could live without without that. Yeah, I could live without that." It was just a different way. And that." It was just a different way. And that." It was just a different way. And I thought, "What if we did that with our I thought, "What if we did that with our I thought, "What if we did that with our calendars?" You know, like, "Yeah, I'm calendars?" You know, like, "Yeah, I'm calendars?" You know, like, "Yeah, I'm doing it, but could I live without it?" doing it, but could I live without it?" doing it, but could I live without it?" Yes. And then in many cases, you start Yes. And then in many cases, you start Yes. And then in many cases, you start to go, "Not only could I to go, "Not only could I to go, "Not only could I >> I really want to." >> I really want to." >> I really want to." >> It can be really clarifying. I think one >> It can be really clarifying. I think one >> It can be really clarifying. I think one thing I'm thankful for both of you. Um, thing I'm thankful for both of you. Um, thing I'm thankful for both of you. Um, you're both kind of one season ahead of you're both kind of one season ahead of you're both kind of one season ahead of me and you really are. me and you really are. me and you really are. >> I don't think it's a whole season. I >> I don't think it's a whole season. I >> I don't think it's a whole season. I don't think it's a whole I don't think don't think it's a whole I don't think don't think it's a whole I don't think it's a whole season. I think Yeah. I it's a whole season. I think Yeah. I it's a whole season. I think Yeah. I wasn't so much older and really fast wasn't so much older and really fast wasn't so much older and really fast than me. than me. than me. >> What I will say, you're just, you know, >> What I will say, you're just, you know, >> What I will say, you're just, you know, kind of like when you have kids that are kind of like when you have kids that are kind of like when you have kids that are three and someone has kids who are three and someone has kids who are three and someone has kids who are eight, that that one season better. like eight, that that one season better. like eight, that that one season better. like sugar receives it in the name of the sugar receives it in the name of the sugar receives it in the name of the Lord. How about you, Cece? CeCe takes Lord. How about you, Cece? CeCe takes Lord. How about you, Cece? CeCe takes it.

it. it. >> I'm in preschool. Y'all are in >> I'm in preschool. Y'all are in >> I'm in preschool. Y'all are in elementary school. elementary school. elementary school. >> Okay, that type thing, >> Okay, that type thing, >> Okay, that type thing, >> maybe third. Um, >> maybe third. Um, >> maybe third. Um, it's been really nice to be able to call it's been really nice to be able to call it's been really nice to be able to call you guys and say, "Hey, um, you guys and say, "Hey, um, you guys and say, "Hey, um, >> what do you think about this, you know, >> what do you think about this, you know, >> what do you think about this, you know, and because all of us are in certain and because all of us are in certain and because all of us are in certain seasons, and I remember you said to me, seasons, and I remember you said to me, seasons, and I remember you said to me, >> cuz I'm I'm about to I'm on the edge of >> cuz I'm I'm about to I'm on the edge of >> cuz I'm I'm about to I'm on the edge of the emptiness." Yeah. the emptiness." Yeah. the emptiness." Yeah. >> And you're like, "Things are really >> And you're like, "Things are really >> And you're like, "Things are really going to change next year. you're going going to change next year. you're going going to change next year. you're going to see that differently next year. And to see that differently next year. And to see that differently next year. And so I would just give an encouragement to so I would just give an encouragement to so I would just give an encouragement to anyone listening anyone listening anyone listening >> in your local life, maybe look for >> in your local life, maybe look for >> in your local life, maybe look for someone kind of that not one whole someone kind of that not one whole someone kind of that not one whole season, season, season, >> just a few little years, just a few >> just a few little years, just a few >> just a few little years, just a few little years, little years, little years, >> just that next moment. And and just ask >> just that next moment. And and just ask >> just that next moment. And and just ask that wisdom in person because what do that wisdom in person because what do that wisdom in person because what do you wish you had said no to in the you wish you had said no to in the you wish you had said no to in the season season season >> just passed? Yeah. Um and and that it's >> just passed? Yeah. Um and and that it's >> just passed? Yeah. Um and and that it's still going to be different because still going to be different because still going to be different because we're all living different lives, but it we're all living different lives, but it we're all living different lives, but it we really do need one another. we really do need one another. we really do need one another. >> That's a great question, though. What do >> That's a great question, though. What do >> That's a great question, though. What do you wish you had said no to? I really you wish you had said no to? I really you wish you had said no to? I really like that. like that. like that. >> Yeah. Yeah. And also, it could be a >> Yeah. Yeah. And also, it could be a >> Yeah. Yeah. And also, it could be a parent who's the person that you need to parent who's the person that you need to parent who's the person that you need to go talk to.

go talk to. go talk to. >> I just I think I I was not quick to go >> I just I think I I was not quick to go >> I just I think I I was not quick to go and have those conversations with my and have those conversations with my and have those conversations with my parents, and it turned out they knew a parents, and it turned out they knew a parents, and it turned out they knew a whole lot of stuff. whole lot of stuff. whole lot of stuff. So, um, it may be a mentor or it may be So, um, it may be a mentor or it may be So, um, it may be a mentor or it may be like someone you're actually related to like someone you're actually related to like someone you're actually related to who's lived life longer than you who who's lived life longer than you who who's lived life longer than you who knows you really, really well. knows you really, really well. knows you really, really well. >> They really do. Because honestly, my dad >> They really do. Because honestly, my dad >> They really do. Because honestly, my dad has been a huge help to me just because has been a huge help to me just because has been a huge help to me just because he knows me, he knows me, he knows me, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Yeah, that's right. Well, Jen, thank you >> Yeah, that's right. Well, Jen, thank you >> Yeah, that's right. Well, Jen, thank you for being here with us. for being here with us. for being here with us. >> There's nowhere I'd rather be >> There's nowhere I'd rather be >> There's nowhere I'd rather be >> on the deep dish. And we like to close >> on the deep dish. And we like to close >> on the deep dish. And we like to close our session with a deep dish question our session with a deep dish question our session with a deep dish question that kind of gets into your life. Um, that kind of gets into your life. Um, that kind of gets into your life. Um, and so where is a place if you could go and so where is a place if you could go and so where is a place if you could go back to and visit? So like somewhere you back to and visit? So like somewhere you back to and visit? So like somewhere you said yes to, where would you say yes to said yes to, where would you say yes to said yes to, where would you say yes to again? Where would you want to go back? again? Where would you want to go back? again? Where would you want to go back? You you know cuz I've been I have not You you know cuz I've been I have not You you know cuz I've been I have not stopped talking about it since we've stopped talking about it since we've stopped talking about it since we've been together. But I just got back from been together. But I just got back from been together. But I just got back from a trip to Ireland and we got a house on a trip to Ireland and we got a house on a trip to Ireland and we got a house on the north coast which I really think I the north coast which I really think I the north coast which I really think I kind of don't want to tell everybody kind of don't want to tell everybody kind of don't want to tell everybody because I don't want everybody to go because I don't want everybody to go because I don't want everybody to go there. We will not put the Airbnb on the there. We will not put the Airbnb on the there. We will not put the Airbnb on the show notes.

show notes. show notes. >> What is so great about it is you just >> What is so great about it is you just >> What is so great about it is you just feel like you're at the edge of the feel like you're at the edge of the feel like you're at the edge of the world all by yourself. And we rented a world all by yourself. And we rented a world all by yourself. And we rented a house on the north coast. You could see house on the north coast. You could see house on the north coast. You could see Scotland from the house Scotland from the house Scotland from the house >> and we just stared at the waves, Jeff >> and we just stared at the waves, Jeff >> and we just stared at the waves, Jeff and I, and drank coffee and uh it was and I, and drank coffee and uh it was and I, and drank coffee and uh it was just wonderful. And I would go back just wonderful. And I would go back just wonderful. And I would go back there and a heartbeat. there and a heartbeat. there and a heartbeat. >> You guys want to come? Let's go. >> You guys want to come? Let's go. >> You guys want to come? Let's go. >> Yes. Let's go. Us. We can record podcast >> Yes. Let's go. Us. We can record podcast >> Yes. Let's go. Us. We can record podcast there. We'll just We could just sit and there. We'll just We could just sit and there. We'll just We could just sit and stare at stare at stare at >> Look at Instagram. >> Look at Instagram. >> Look at Instagram. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Well, this has been such a good >> Well, this has been such a good >> Well, this has been such a good conversation. Thank you both. Um and conversation. Thank you both. Um and conversation. Thank you both. Um and it's good to say yes to things like that it's good to say yes to things like that it's good to say yes to things like that because we do need to say yes to rest in because we do need to say yes to rest in because we do need to say yes to rest in our lives. We didn't even get to our lives. We didn't even get to our lives. We didn't even get to Sabbath. We'll save that for another Sabbath. We'll save that for another Sabbath. We'll save that for another conversation. But thanks for joining us conversation. But thanks for joining us conversation. But thanks for joining us um for this episode of The Deep Dish and um for this episode of The Deep Dish and um for this episode of The Deep Dish and we look forward to seeing you next time.