Jen Wilkin and Mike Kruger on Understanding Revelation [TGC Podcast Ep. 390]

This is my fault. This is my fault. Sorry about that everybody. Uh, we had a Sorry about that everybody. Uh, we had a Sorry about that everybody. Uh, we had a little mixup in timing there. Jen, do little mixup in timing there. Jen, do little mixup in timing there. Jen, do you want to share about the secret you want to share about the secret you want to share about the secret rapture that I wanted Mike to think I rapture that I wanted Mike to think I rapture that I wanted Mike to think I got raptured. That was basically what it got raptured. That was basically what it got raptured. That was basically what it was. Yeah. No, I was we had a time zone was. Yeah. No, I was we had a time zone was. Yeah. No, I was we had a time zone problem with my calendar. And so, I was problem with my calendar. And so, I was problem with my calendar. And so, I was definitely going to be here an hour from definitely going to be here an hour from definitely going to be here an hour from now. So, anyway, I'm so sorry and I'm now. So, anyway, I'm so sorry and I'm now. So, anyway, I'm so sorry and I'm out of breath. out of breath. out of breath. Well, while Jen is catching her breath, Well, while Jen is catching her breath, Well, while Jen is catching her breath, let me welcome you to this session on let me welcome you to this session on let me welcome you to this session on the book of Revelation. We're so excited the book of Revelation. We're so excited the book of Revelation. We're so excited you're here. And I'm really excited Jen you're here. And I'm really excited Jen you're here. And I'm really excited Jen is here now, right? Yeah. Um, dramatic is here now, right? Yeah. Um, dramatic is here now, right? Yeah. Um, dramatic entrance. entrance. entrance. I I got to admit, I did think the I I got to admit, I did think the I I got to admit, I did think the rapture happened and she was gone and rapture happened and she was gone and rapture happened and she was gone and all of us are apparently non-Christians. all of us are apparently non-Christians. all of us are apparently non-Christians. So, I don't know exactly what to think So, I don't know exactly what to think So, I don't know exactly what to think about that. I like, but the whole room about that. I like, but the whole room about that. I like, but the whole room is here, so either she's extra holy and is here, so either she's extra holy and is here, so either she's extra holy and we're all in trouble. I'm not sure what we're all in trouble. I'm not sure what we're all in trouble. I'm not sure what to make of it, but this was all designed to make of it, but this was all designed to make of it, but this was all designed to be an illustration of the way the to be an illustration of the way the to be an illustration of the way the book of Revelation has pre precarious book of Revelation has pre precarious book of Revelation has pre precarious ups and downs to it, but um no, we're ups and downs to it, but um no, we're ups and downs to it, but um no, we're thrilled you're here and sorry for the thrilled you're here and sorry for the thrilled you're here and sorry for the delay, but we're excited to jump into delay, but we're excited to jump into delay, but we're excited to jump into this book because we love this book this book because we love this book this book because we love this book together and have talked about it a together and have talked about it a together and have talked about it a number of different times. And we think number of different times. And we think number of different times. And we think this just a a fantastic chance to dive this just a a fantastic chance to dive this just a a fantastic chance to dive into this with you and talk about the into this with you and talk about the into this with you and talk about the riches of Revelation, which is this this riches of Revelation, which is this this riches of Revelation, which is this this title is all about. If you don't know title is all about. If you don't know title is all about. If you don't know me, I'm Mike Krueger. I'm the president me, I'm Mike Krueger. I'm the president me, I'm Mike Krueger. I'm the president of Reformed Seminary in Charlotte and of Reformed Seminary in Charlotte and of Reformed Seminary in Charlotte and professor of New Testament. And Jen is professor of New Testament. And Jen is professor of New Testament. And Jen is of course needing no introduction, of course needing no introduction, of course needing no introduction, author, speaker, and a recent author on author, speaker, and a recent author on author, speaker, and a recent author on the book of Revelation. Jen, say the book of Revelation. Jen, say the book of Revelation. Jen, say something about the book you just something about the book you just something about the book you just published. I swore I would never ever uh published. I swore I would never ever uh published. I swore I would never ever uh write a study on the book of Revelation,

write a study on the book of Revelation, write a study on the book of Revelation, and I really tried to stick to my guns. and I really tried to stick to my guns. and I really tried to stick to my guns. And then I had taught on Genesis and on And then I had taught on Genesis and on And then I had taught on Genesis and on Exodus, and Revelation all of a sudden Exodus, and Revelation all of a sudden Exodus, and Revelation all of a sudden began to seem less opaque after spending began to seem less opaque after spending began to seem less opaque after spending time in those books. So, I screwed my time in those books. So, I screwed my time in those books. So, I screwed my courage to the sticking place and wrote courage to the sticking place and wrote courage to the sticking place and wrote a study. And that's how I got roped into a study. And that's how I got roped into a study. And that's how I got roped into showing up 10 minutes late for a session showing up 10 minutes late for a session showing up 10 minutes late for a session with my career. with my career. with my career. One of the things that we joked about One of the things that we joked about One of the things that we joked about when I was like, someone asked me to do when I was like, someone asked me to do when I was like, someone asked me to do this session on revelation. I'm like, this session on revelation. I'm like, this session on revelation. I'm like, why in the world would I do a session why in the world would I do a session why in the world would I do a session where at the end half the room loves me where at the end half the room loves me where at the end half the room loves me and half the room hates me at the end of and half the room hates me at the end of and half the room hates me at the end of the topic. So, we don't know exactly the topic. So, we don't know exactly the topic. So, we don't know exactly where this is going to go, but we love where this is going to go, but we love where this is going to go, but we love this book and we think there's all kinds this book and we think there's all kinds this book and we think there's all kinds of rich things about it. Let's start of rich things about it. Let's start of rich things about it. Let's start with this question though and this is with this question though and this is with this question though and this is something that um I think would be something that um I think would be something that um I think would be helpful for the audience Jen and for me helpful for the audience Jen and for me helpful for the audience Jen and for me and you together. Um just talk about the and you together. Um just talk about the and you together. Um just talk about the background uh you have in your life with background uh you have in your life with background uh you have in your life with the book of Revelation. Did you grow up the book of Revelation. Did you grow up the book of Revelation. Did you grow up in a church that talked about it, read in a church that talked about it, read in a church that talked about it, read it, thought about it? And I'll share a it, thought about it? And I'll share a it, thought about it? And I'll share a little bit about my own background too, little bit about my own background too, little bit about my own background too, but but give us some insight on that. but but give us some insight on that. but but give us some insight on that. Yeah, there is a building in my hometown Yeah, there is a building in my hometown Yeah, there is a building in my hometown in North Texas that when I'm back in North Texas that when I'm back in North Texas that when I'm back visiting my parents, when I drive by visiting my parents, when I drive by visiting my parents, when I drive by this building, I feel vaguely nauseous this building, I feel vaguely nauseous this building, I feel vaguely nauseous in the pit of my stomach because it's in the pit of my stomach because it's in the pit of my stomach because it's where I went to a screening of the movie where I went to a screening of the movie where I went to a screening of the movie A Thief in the Night. Can I get a A Thief in the Night. Can I get a A Thief in the Night. Can I get a witness in here who's been through that?

witness in here who's been through that? witness in here who's been through that? And and I I have said, and people laugh And and I I have said, and people laugh And and I I have said, and people laugh when I say it, that that movie pretty when I say it, that that movie pretty when I say it, that that movie pretty much almost sent me to therapy. But I'm much almost sent me to therapy. But I'm much almost sent me to therapy. But I'm not joking when I say that. Like I not joking when I say that. Like I not joking when I say that. Like I seriously by the time I left for seriously by the time I left for seriously by the time I left for college, I was having full-blown panic college, I was having full-blown panic college, I was having full-blown panic attacks that involved like I remember attacks that involved like I remember attacks that involved like I remember one night there was a lunar eclipse and one night there was a lunar eclipse and one night there was a lunar eclipse and I thought it's happening. It's going I thought it's happening. It's going I thought it's happening. It's going down right now. Um it really messed with down right now. Um it really messed with down right now. Um it really messed with my head. And so after the way that um my head. And so after the way that um my head. And so after the way that um that book was approached in my that book was approached in my that book was approached in my childhood, I kind of got to a place childhood, I kind of got to a place childhood, I kind of got to a place where I was like whatever is in there, I where I was like whatever is in there, I where I was like whatever is in there, I I can't look at it. like I'm gonna need I can't look at it. like I'm gonna need I can't look at it. like I'm gonna need someone else to figure all that out someone else to figure all that out someone else to figure all that out because I was I just couldn't I couldn't because I was I just couldn't I couldn't because I was I just couldn't I couldn't rationally read it. I felt like it was rationally read it. I felt like it was rationally read it. I felt like it was gonna jump scare me at every moment. So gonna jump scare me at every moment. So gonna jump scare me at every moment. So yeah, that's my history. Thanks for yeah, that's my history. Thanks for yeah, that's my history. Thanks for bringing it up. It's funny. That's mine. bringing it up. It's funny. That's mine. bringing it up. It's funny. That's mine. Yeah, absolutely. And we have a therapy Yeah, absolutely. And we have a therapy Yeah, absolutely. And we have a therapy session after this. We'll go in session after this. We'll go in session after this. We'll go in together. I actually had the same exact together. I actually had the same exact together. I actually had the same exact experience. I very vividly remember experience. I very vividly remember experience. I very vividly remember watching the movie Thief in the Night. watching the movie Thief in the Night. watching the movie Thief in the Night. Scared the living daylights out of me. Scared the living daylights out of me. Scared the living daylights out of me. They chopped a child's head off with a They chopped a child's head off with a They chopped a child's head off with a guillotine, guys. Yes. Yeah. Okay. guillotine, guys. Yes. Yeah. Okay. guillotine, guys. Yes. Yeah. Okay. That's what I'm looking for. a little That's what I'm looking for. a little That's what I'm looking for. a little more of that response.

more of that response. more of that response. And the other thing I remember, and I I And the other thing I remember, and I I And the other thing I remember, and I I think we grew up roughly in the same think we grew up roughly in the same think we grew up roughly in the same era, which is if you grew up in the era, which is if you grew up in the era, which is if you grew up in the 1980s, Cold War peak, the book of 1980s, Cold War peak, the book of 1980s, Cold War peak, the book of Revelation was wrapped around the United Revelation was wrapped around the United Revelation was wrapped around the United States versus the Soviet Union. So States versus the Soviet Union. So States versus the Soviet Union. So everything I was taught about the book everything I was taught about the book everything I was taught about the book of Revelation growing up was, well, you of Revelation growing up was, well, you of Revelation growing up was, well, you know, it's cold war dynamics, cold war know, it's cold war dynamics, cold war know, it's cold war dynamics, cold war interactions. Um, and I don't know if interactions. Um, and I don't know if interactions. Um, and I don't know if that was your experience, too. In fact, that was your experience, too. In fact, that was your experience, too. In fact, if you go back and look at the book if you go back and look at the book if you go back and look at the book covers from the studies on the book of covers from the studies on the book of covers from the studies on the book of Revelation in the 1980s, they're almost Revelation in the 1980s, they're almost Revelation in the 1980s, they're almost all related to cold war themes. Yeah. all related to cold war themes. Yeah. all related to cold war themes. Yeah. And I I remember entire sermon series And I I remember entire sermon series And I I remember entire sermon series devoted to linking things that were in devoted to linking things that were in devoted to linking things that were in the headlines to what was in the book of the headlines to what was in the book of the headlines to what was in the book of Revelation. Yep. And I'm disappointed Revelation. Yep. And I'm disappointed Revelation. Yep. And I'm disappointed your book cover didn't have something, your book cover didn't have something, your book cover didn't have something, you know, from the Cold War on it, Jen. you know, from the Cold War on it, Jen. you know, from the Cold War on it, Jen. So, not not only did it not, there's a So, not not only did it not, there's a So, not not only did it not, there's a unicorn down in the lefth hand corner unicorn down in the lefth hand corner unicorn down in the lefth hand corner people off. Yep. Yeah. I've taught the people off. Yep. Yeah. I've taught the people off. Yep. Yeah. I've taught the book of Revelation for a long time. I book of Revelation for a long time. I book of Revelation for a long time. I don't remember there being any unicorns don't remember there being any unicorns don't remember there being any unicorns in there, but so Jen has written a book in there, but so Jen has written a book in there, but so Jen has written a book on the book of Revelation. Um, this is a on the book of Revelation. Um, this is a on the book of Revelation. Um, this is a class I've taught at Reformed class I've taught at Reformed class I've taught at Reformed Theological Seminary for 24 years um on Theological Seminary for 24 years um on Theological Seminary for 24 years um on uh all the corpus of Hebrews to uh all the corpus of Hebrews to uh all the corpus of Hebrews to Revelation. In fact, in my class at RTS Revelation. In fact, in my class at RTS Revelation. In fact, in my class at RTS next week, in fact, when I get back to next week, in fact, when I get back to next week, in fact, when I get back to Charlotte, I'll be teaching three Charlotte, I'll be teaching three Charlotte, I'll be teaching three straight weeks of the book of straight weeks of the book of straight weeks of the book of Revelation. So, this is on the brain for Revelation. So, this is on the brain for Revelation. So, this is on the brain for me already, and I'm excited to have uh me already, and I'm excited to have uh me already, and I'm excited to have uh this discussion. Now, one of the things this discussion. Now, one of the things this discussion. Now, one of the things I've learned over the years about the I've learned over the years about the I've learned over the years about the book Revelation, and Jen, I want to get book Revelation, and Jen, I want to get book Revelation, and Jen, I want to get your thoughts on this, is I've noticed your thoughts on this, is I've noticed your thoughts on this, is I've noticed two extremes out there. Uh, one extreme two extremes out there. Uh, one extreme two extremes out there. Uh, one extreme out there is what you might call a near out there is what you might call a near out there is what you might call a near obsession with the book where it's all obsession with the book where it's all obsession with the book where it's all you talk about. It's kind of

you talk about. It's kind of you talk about. It's kind of everything's read through the grid of everything's read through the grid of everything's read through the grid of Revelation and every current event news Revelation and every current event news Revelation and every current event news is interpreted through the book of is interpreted through the book of is interpreted through the book of Revelation. And by the way, that that Revelation. And by the way, that that Revelation. And by the way, that that first option has the they got they have first option has the they got they have first option has the they got they have the best graphs and charts, I got to the best graphs and charts, I got to the best graphs and charts, I got to say. Um, and they're they're beautiful. say. Um, and they're they're beautiful. say. Um, and they're they're beautiful. And there's that side. And then the And there's that side. And then the And there's that side. And then the other side which I think probably other side which I think probably other side which I think probably captures my tradition more in the reform captures my tradition more in the reform captures my tradition more in the reform space is is almost near neglect. Um space is is almost near neglect. Um space is is almost near neglect. Um where I can't remember aside from my where I can't remember aside from my where I can't remember aside from my younger years when I saw a thief in the younger years when I saw a thief in the younger years when I saw a thief in the night in my later years ever even night in my later years ever even night in my later years ever even hearing a sermon on the book of hearing a sermon on the book of hearing a sermon on the book of revelation and it's almost like it revelation and it's almost like it revelation and it's almost like it didn't exist in the Bible. It's so scary didn't exist in the Bible. It's so scary didn't exist in the Bible. It's so scary so so hard to read so controversial so so hard to read so controversial so so hard to read so controversial we're just going to ignore it. Um, and we're just going to ignore it. Um, and we're just going to ignore it. Um, and of course, famously, John Calvin never of course, famously, John Calvin never of course, famously, John Calvin never wrote a commentary on the book of wrote a commentary on the book of wrote a commentary on the book of Revelation, even though he wrote a Revelation, even though he wrote a Revelation, even though he wrote a commentary on all the other books of the commentary on all the other books of the commentary on all the other books of the New Testament. Um, so no one can appeal New Testament. Um, so no one can appeal New Testament. Um, so no one can appeal to Calvin's view, apparently on this to Calvin's view, apparently on this to Calvin's view, apparently on this particular issue. Do you think he saw a particular issue. Do you think he saw a particular issue. Do you think he saw a thief in the night, too? I think he saw thief in the night, too? I think he saw thief in the night, too? I think he saw a thief in the night. a thief in the night. a thief in the night. Yeah, he's worried about the rapture uh Yeah, he's worried about the rapture uh Yeah, he's worried about the rapture uh as well. So, what do you think about as well. So, what do you think about as well. So, what do you think about that, those two extremes out there? that, those two extremes out there? that, those two extremes out there? Well, they definitely exist. I think Well, they definitely exist. I think Well, they definitely exist. I think there and I think another thing that there and I think another thing that there and I think another thing that feeds into either the obsession or the feeds into either the obsession or the feeds into either the obsession or the neglect um piece is the belief that you neglect um piece is the belief that you neglect um piece is the belief that you need some sort of expert level ability need some sort of expert level ability need some sort of expert level ability to understand the book. And so then to understand the book. And so then to understand the book. And so then there are the overachievers who are like there are the overachievers who are like there are the overachievers who are like I think I can get really granular with I think I can get really granular with I think I can get really granular with this and figure it all out and you know this and figure it all out and you know this and figure it all out and you know the they've got the like uh chart on the the they've got the like uh chart on the the they've got the like uh chart on the wall with the red string attaching all wall with the red string attaching all wall with the red string attaching all the different events. Uh and then you've the different events. Uh and then you've the different events. Uh and then you've got people who are like this is way got people who are like this is way got people who are like this is way above my pay grade. And um and in the above my pay grade. And um and in the above my pay grade. And um and in the same way that you wouldn't want to like same way that you wouldn't want to like same way that you wouldn't want to like just pick one of the gospels and only just pick one of the gospels and only just pick one of the gospels and only read it. You know, we don't want to

read it. You know, we don't want to read it. You know, we don't want to choose one book of the Bible over choose one book of the Bible over choose one book of the Bible over another and either let it vanish out of another and either let it vanish out of another and either let it vanish out of the um of the 66 books or uh draw our the um of the 66 books or uh draw our the um of the 66 books or uh draw our attention in a way that uh potentially attention in a way that uh potentially attention in a way that uh potentially distorts our view of the other um 65 distorts our view of the other um 65 distorts our view of the other um 65 books. We know that all scripture is God books. We know that all scripture is God books. We know that all scripture is God breathed and profitable. And so um we breathed and profitable. And so um we breathed and profitable. And so um we need all of scripture and in particular need all of scripture and in particular need all of scripture and in particular the 66th book of the Bible completes the 66th book of the Bible completes the 66th book of the Bible completes what is a full circle story. Uh you what is a full circle story. Uh you what is a full circle story. Uh you probably have full circle stories that probably have full circle stories that probably have full circle stories that you love. This is a Christian conference you love. This is a Christian conference you love. This is a Christian conference so you've all read Tolken and you quote so you've all read Tolken and you quote so you've all read Tolken and you quote him constantly. What is said with such him constantly. What is said with such him constantly. What is said with such affection. Yes. What is the My husband's affection. Yes. What is the My husband's affection. Yes. What is the My husband's gonna like throw a shoe at me for saying gonna like throw a shoe at me for saying gonna like throw a shoe at me for saying that. Um, what what is the subtitle of that. Um, what what is the subtitle of that. Um, what what is the subtitle of the book The Hobbit? Do you remember it? the book The Hobbit? Do you remember it? the book The Hobbit? Do you remember it? There and back again. There and back There and back again. There and back There and back again. There and back again. Why? Because we love full circle again. Why? Because we love full circle again. Why? Because we love full circle stories. I would I would go so far as to stories. I would I would go so far as to stories. I would I would go so far as to say they're your favorite kind. When you say they're your favorite kind. When you say they're your favorite kind. When you hate a movie, it's because it left you. hate a movie, it's because it left you. hate a movie, it's because it left you. It didn't resolve the tension at the It didn't resolve the tension at the It didn't resolve the tension at the end, right? And the Bible, I think the end, right? And the Bible, I think the end, right? And the Bible, I think the reason we love full circle stories reason we love full circle stories reason we love full circle stories better than other stories is because the better than other stories is because the better than other stories is because the story of the Bible is a full circle story of the Bible is a full circle story of the Bible is a full circle story. I think there's something in us story. I think there's something in us story. I think there's something in us that craves that conclusive ending and that craves that conclusive ending and that craves that conclusive ending and that is what revelation does and it is that is what revelation does and it is that is what revelation does and it is an ending that takes you back to the an ending that takes you back to the an ending that takes you back to the beginning. Um and talks toward where we beginning. Um and talks toward where we beginning. Um and talks toward where we started. Okay. Now you brought Tolken started. Okay. Now you brought Tolken started. Okay. Now you brought Tolken up, Jen, so you know where I'm going up, Jen, so you know where I'm going up, Jen, so you know where I'm going with this. Um uh actually Revelation was with this. Um uh actually Revelation was with this. Um uh actually Revelation was quite influential on Lord of the Rings.

quite influential on Lord of the Rings. quite influential on Lord of the Rings. The you catastrophe theme in Lord of the The you catastrophe theme in Lord of the The you catastrophe theme in Lord of the Rings largely flows out of that. Um if Rings largely flows out of that. Um if Rings largely flows out of that. Um if you say Sylmerelion, I'm walking. you say Sylmerelion, I'm walking. you say Sylmerelion, I'm walking. Exactly. Exactly. Exactly. We got Jenna, now she's gone. So, We got Jenna, now she's gone. So, We got Jenna, now she's gone. So, um, but I think one of the things I I um, but I think one of the things I I um, but I think one of the things I I think Revelation brings up, which is a think Revelation brings up, which is a think Revelation brings up, which is a which is the bigger umbrella issue, which is the bigger umbrella issue, which is the bigger umbrella issue, which is this issue of esquetology, which is this issue of esquetology, which is this issue of esquetology, right? Esquetology is a big word we use right? Esquetology is a big word we use right? Esquetology is a big word we use in theological circles to talk about the in theological circles to talk about the in theological circles to talk about the last days. Esqueas is just the Greek last days. Esqueas is just the Greek last days. Esqueas is just the Greek word for last. So, esquetology is the word for last. So, esquetology is the word for last. So, esquetology is the study of the last things. And people get study of the last things. And people get study of the last things. And people get nervous about esquetology, which is one nervous about esquetology, which is one nervous about esquetology, which is one of the reasons they're nervous about the of the reasons they're nervous about the of the reasons they're nervous about the book of Revelation. But here's the thing book of Revelation. But here's the thing book of Revelation. But here's the thing about esquetology that I think is about esquetology that I think is about esquetology that I think is important to remember is esquetology is important to remember is esquetology is important to remember is esquetology is not about code cracking. It's not about not about code cracking. It's not about not about code cracking. It's not about puzzle puzzle puzzle solving. Esquetology when you get down solving. Esquetology when you get down solving. Esquetology when you get down to the the nub of it is about solving to the the nub of it is about solving to the the nub of it is about solving the problem of evil. When you when you the problem of evil. When you when you the problem of evil. When you when you think about what what esquetology does, think about what what esquetology does, think about what what esquetology does, we all live in a broken fallen world. we all live in a broken fallen world. we all live in a broken fallen world. And everybody both Christian and And everybody both Christian and And everybody both Christian and non-Christian by the way are all asking non-Christian by the way are all asking non-Christian by the way are all asking the same question. Will this ever be the same question. Will this ever be the same question. Will this ever be fixed? Will this ever be resolved? Will fixed? Will this ever be resolved? Will fixed? Will this ever be resolved? Will this ever be made right? Well, this ever be made right? Well, this ever be made right? Well, everything that was sad going to come everything that was sad going to come everything that was sad going to come untrue as as Sam Wise Gamji said and uh untrue as as Sam Wise Gamji said and uh untrue as as Sam Wise Gamji said and uh and one of the things that you get in and one of the things that you get in and one of the things that you get in the book of Revelation the book of Revelation the book of Revelation is people say, "Well, what's the is people say, "Well, what's the is people say, "Well, what's the solution to the problem of evil?" Read solution to the problem of evil?" Read solution to the problem of evil?" Read the book of Revelation. It doesn't the book of Revelation. It doesn't the book of Revelation. It doesn't answer everything you want to know, but answer everything you want to know, but answer everything you want to know, but it does show you that God is not unaware it does show you that God is not unaware it does show you that God is not unaware of the evil in the world, and one day of the evil in the world, and one day of the evil in the world, and one day it'll all be set right. Well, and I it'll all be set right. Well, and I it'll all be set right. Well, and I think too another thing that we have think too another thing that we have think too another thing that we have forgotten is the way that the book of

forgotten is the way that the book of forgotten is the way that the book of Revelation was delivered to its original Revelation was delivered to its original Revelation was delivered to its original audience. Um, people sat and heard audience. Um, people sat and heard audience. Um, people sat and heard John's vision read to them. And it takes John's vision read to them. And it takes John's vision read to them. And it takes about the amount of time that it takes about the amount of time that it takes about the amount of time that it takes to watch a full-length feature film to to watch a full-length feature film to to watch a full-length feature film to hear the book of Revelation read to you. hear the book of Revelation read to you. hear the book of Revelation read to you. And I think that's significant because And I think that's significant because And I think that's significant because um someone who is listening to it being um someone who is listening to it being um someone who is listening to it being read from start to finish who we can read from start to finish who we can read from start to finish who we can assume or should assume I believe they assume or should assume I believe they assume or should assume I believe they heard and understood the message of the heard and understood the message of the heard and understood the message of the book they don't have time to come up book they don't have time to come up book they don't have time to come up with charts and graphs and they don't with charts and graphs and they don't with charts and graphs and they don't have probably in front of them a have probably in front of them a have probably in front of them a physical copy of the entire rest of the physical copy of the entire rest of the physical copy of the entire rest of the Bible so that they can be um doing all Bible so that they can be um doing all Bible so that they can be um doing all these hyperlinks back to the Old these hyperlinks back to the Old these hyperlinks back to the Old Testament. Um and I think there's two Testament. Um and I think there's two Testament. Um and I think there's two things to take from that. First is that things to take from that. First is that things to take from that. First is that we should allow the book to wash over us we should allow the book to wash over us we should allow the book to wash over us in cinematic fashion. It is given to us in cinematic fashion. It is given to us in cinematic fashion. It is given to us in bright colors and vivid images. Um I in bright colors and vivid images. Um I in bright colors and vivid images. Um I think there's something to be said for think there's something to be said for think there's something to be said for pulling back and letting the entire pulling back and letting the entire pulling back and letting the entire thing from start to finish just roll thing from start to finish just roll thing from start to finish just roll over your senses. Um so that you can over your senses. Um so that you can over your senses. Um so that you can hear it in some sense in the way the hear it in some sense in the way the hear it in some sense in the way the original hearers did. But there's original hearers did. But there's original hearers did. But there's something that most of us are missing something that most of us are missing something that most of us are missing that the original hearers did have and that the original hearers did have and that the original hearers did have and that is a literacy around the Old that is a literacy around the Old that is a literacy around the Old Testament. And so we read it and we're Testament. And so we read it and we're Testament. And so we read it and we're like, "What just happened to me?" uh like, "What just happened to me?" uh like, "What just happened to me?" uh whereas someone in the first century in whereas someone in the first century in whereas someone in the first century in in particular a a converted Jew in the

in particular a a converted Jew in the in particular a a converted Jew in the first century listening to this being first century listening to this being first century listening to this being read uh and I actually like to picture read uh and I actually like to picture read uh and I actually like to picture the converted Jews leaning over to their the converted Jews leaning over to their the converted Jews leaning over to their converted gentile neighbors and saying converted gentile neighbors and saying converted gentile neighbors and saying oh my gosh this is what's happening here oh my gosh this is what's happening here oh my gosh this is what's happening here this is coming from here you wouldn't this is coming from here you wouldn't this is coming from here you wouldn't know this but let me tell you and and I know this but let me tell you and and I know this but let me tell you and and I think of the gospel coming first to the think of the gospel coming first to the think of the gospel coming first to the Jew and then to the gent I just kind of Jew and then to the gent I just kind of Jew and then to the gent I just kind of a sweet idea to me that that might have a sweet idea to me that that might have a sweet idea to me that that might have played out in first century churches but played out in first century churches but played out in first century churches but because we have most of us have a deep because we have most of us have a deep because we have most of us have a deep and abiding and abiding and abiding unfamiliarity with the Old Testament. We unfamiliarity with the Old Testament. We unfamiliarity with the Old Testament. We find um a a genre of writing and a style find um a a genre of writing and a style find um a a genre of writing and a style of writing is in Revelation to be uh of of writing is in Revelation to be uh of of writing is in Revelation to be uh of a greater opakeness than it would have a greater opakeness than it would have a greater opakeness than it would have been to to those who heard it first. been to to those who heard it first. been to to those who heard it first. Yeah. One of the fascinating things Yeah. One of the fascinating things Yeah. One of the fascinating things about the book of Revelation that I about the book of Revelation that I about the book of Revelation that I always point out to my students is that always point out to my students is that always point out to my students is that it is absolutely loaded, packed with it is absolutely loaded, packed with it is absolutely loaded, packed with illusions to the Old Testament, dripping illusions to the Old Testament, dripping illusions to the Old Testament, dripping off almost every sentence to the point off almost every sentence to the point off almost every sentence to the point where scholars have tried to add them up where scholars have tried to add them up where scholars have tried to add them up and they've added up anywhere from 400 and they've added up anywhere from 400 and they've added up anywhere from 400 illusions to over a thousand illusions illusions to over a thousand illusions illusions to over a thousand illusions to the Old Testament. But here's the to the Old Testament. But here's the to the Old Testament. But here's the thing, not one time does the book of thing, not one time does the book of thing, not one time does the book of Revelation quote the Old Testament. Not Revelation quote the Old Testament. Not Revelation quote the Old Testament. Not a single time. Never. And it never says, a single time. Never. And it never says, a single time. Never. And it never says, well, in the book of Genesis, it says well, in the book of Genesis, it says well, in the book of Genesis, it says this, and the scripture says in Exodus this, and the scripture says in Exodus this, and the scripture says in Exodus that it never quotes the Old Testament that it never quotes the Old Testament that it never quotes the Old Testament explicitly, but it has the Old Testament explicitly, but it has the Old Testament explicitly, but it has the Old Testament sort of infused into it everywhere. Now, sort of infused into it everywhere. Now, sort of infused into it everywhere. Now, one of there's so many things about that one of there's so many things about that one of there's so many things about that that are important. One is the one you that are important. One is the one you that are important. One is the one you mentioned, which I want to come back to mentioned, which I want to come back to mentioned, which I want to come back to in a second, which is it tells us about in a second, which is it tells us about in a second, which is it tells us about the genre of this book and its links to the genre of this book and its links to the genre of this book and its links to Old Testament counterparts. But the Old Testament counterparts. But the Old Testament counterparts. But the other thing it reminds us of is how does other thing it reminds us of is how does other thing it reminds us of is how does a human being do that? How does how does

a human being do that? How does how does a human being do that? How does how does a single human being weave together so a single human being weave together so a single human being weave together so many passages of scripture, so many many passages of scripture, so many many passages of scripture, so many illusions, so many connections, so many illusions, so many connections, so many illusions, so many connections, so many dots to link together in one book like dots to link together in one book like dots to link together in one book like that? I I think there's few books in the that? I I think there's few books in the that? I I think there's few books in the entire Bible more self-evidencing of entire Bible more self-evidencing of entire Bible more self-evidencing of inspiration than the book of Revelation inspiration than the book of Revelation inspiration than the book of Revelation because of that intricacy. I would because of that intricacy. I would because of that intricacy. I would agree. And and it's one thing to have a agree. And and it's one thing to have a agree. And and it's one thing to have a full circle story that just sort of full circle story that just sort of full circle story that just sort of simply ends up in some sense where it simply ends up in some sense where it simply ends up in some sense where it started. It's another to have a full started. It's another to have a full started. It's another to have a full circle story that helps you understand circle story that helps you understand circle story that helps you understand how all of the places along the way were how all of the places along the way were how all of the places along the way were pointing toward this conclusion. And um pointing toward this conclusion. And um pointing toward this conclusion. And um one of the things that I just I really one of the things that I just I really one of the things that I just I really um I worshiped as I was writing uh that um I worshiped as I was writing uh that um I worshiped as I was writing uh that study because I think we're always study because I think we're always study because I think we're always asking God to show us a miracle in our asking God to show us a miracle in our asking God to show us a miracle in our day. Like Lord, show me a sign. Show me day. Like Lord, show me a sign. Show me day. Like Lord, show me a sign. Show me a sign. And um I wish I was holding my a sign. And um I wish I was holding my a sign. And um I wish I was holding my Bible right now. The Bible is a miracle Bible right now. The Bible is a miracle Bible right now. The Bible is a miracle that we hold in our hands every time we that we hold in our hands every time we that we hold in our hands every time we pick it up. There should not be the pick it up. There should not be the pick it up. There should not be the degree of overlap and agreement and degree of overlap and agreement and degree of overlap and agreement and reiteration. We just did a panel on reiteration. We just did a panel on reiteration. We just did a panel on disagreements in the church and I wonder disagreements in the church and I wonder disagreements in the church and I wonder if the writers of scripture had um had if the writers of scripture had um had if the writers of scripture had um had given into the degree of disagreement given into the degree of disagreement given into the degree of disagreement that we do, the Bible would never have that we do, the Bible would never have that we do, the Bible would never have come to be. And yet the clearest come to be. And yet the clearest come to be. And yet the clearest evidence to me of of the of the spirit evidence to me of of the of the spirit evidence to me of of the of the spirit inspiring the scriptures is that that inspiring the scriptures is that that inspiring the scriptures is that that agreement across all of these books and agreement across all of these books and agreement across all of these books and I think you see it with such clarity I think you see it with such clarity I think you see it with such clarity when you devote time to the book of when you devote time to the book of when you devote time to the book of Revelation. Yeah. Book of Revelation is Revelation. Yeah. Book of Revelation is Revelation. Yeah. Book of Revelation is such a fitting capstone and bookend to such a fitting capstone and bookend to such a fitting capstone and bookend to the whole Bible. Here's something you the whole Bible. Here's something you the whole Bible. Here's something you may not realize is that that the the the may not realize is that that the the the may not realize is that that the the the order of the books in the in the order of the books in the in the order of the books in the in the biblical cannon were different in prior

biblical cannon were different in prior biblical cannon were different in prior generations of the church and really generations of the church and really generations of the church and really divided up into sections. So the Old divided up into sections. So the Old divided up into sections. So the Old Testament in Jesus's day and the Old Testament in Jesus's day and the Old Testament in Jesus's day and the Old Testament in the day in which Revelation Testament in the day in which Revelation Testament in the day in which Revelation was written was divided into three was written was divided into three was written was divided into three parts. And in the New Testament in this parts. And in the New Testament in this parts. And in the New Testament in this time period, it was divided into four time period, it was divided into four time period, it was divided into four parts. So if you just let that sink in parts. So if you just let that sink in parts. So if you just let that sink in for a moment, the entire biblical corpus for a moment, the entire biblical corpus for a moment, the entire biblical corpus of the canon in this time had seven of the canon in this time had seven of the canon in this time had seven sections. Um and the last section of sections. Um and the last section of sections. Um and the last section of that seven was the book of revelation. that seven was the book of revelation. that seven was the book of revelation. It was its own corpus, its own block. So It was its own corpus, its own block. So It was its own corpus, its own block. So in the New Testament, you had gospels, in the New Testament, you had gospels, in the New Testament, you had gospels, acts, general epistles, Paul and then acts, general epistles, Paul and then acts, general epistles, Paul and then revelation. So what that means is revelation. So what that means is revelation. So what that means is Revelation is not only the last book Revelation is not only the last book Revelation is not only the last book written in the New Testament, it's the written in the New Testament, it's the written in the New Testament, it's the seventh and final section of the canon. seventh and final section of the canon. seventh and final section of the canon. And the number seven is everywhere all And the number seven is everywhere all And the number seven is everywhere all over the book of Revelation. Yes. And I over the book of Revelation. Yes. And I over the book of Revelation. Yes. And I would argue that the book is structured would argue that the book is structured would argue that the book is structured around a set of sevens. Do you go for around a set of sevens. Do you go for around a set of sevens. Do you go for that? Yes. In fact, in the study that I that? Yes. In fact, in the study that I that? Yes. In fact, in the study that I wrote, I I teach the women hand signs so wrote, I I teach the women hand signs so wrote, I I teach the women hand signs so that they will always remember them that they will always remember them that they will always remember them because who doesn't love to do hand because who doesn't love to do hand because who doesn't love to do hand signs? Um and so if you think about it, signs? Um and so if you think about it, signs? Um and so if you think about it, you've got seven churches. That's the you've got seven churches. That's the you've got seven churches. That's the first one. So I do the here's the first one. So I do the here's the first one. So I do the here's the church, here's the steeple. Um seven church, here's the steeple. Um seven church, here's the steeple. Um seven seals and then you have seven trumpets seals and then you have seven trumpets seals and then you have seven trumpets and then you have seven histories, which and then you have seven histories, which and then you have seven histories, which I do like you're writing on a page. Um, I do like you're writing on a page. Um, I do like you're writing on a page. Um, and then you have seven bowls, seven and then you have seven bowls, seven and then you have seven bowls, seven words of woe, and then seven last words of woe, and then seven last words of woe, and then seven last sights. And if you can remember that, sights. And if you can remember that, sights. And if you can remember that, you've got a general outline for the you've got a general outline for the you've got a general outline for the book of Revelation as a whole that book of Revelation as a whole that book of Revelation as a whole that you'll never forget. It's like a you'll never forget. It's like a you'll never forget. It's like a elementary school class. We should all elementary school class. We should all elementary school class. We should all stand to do the seven uh we do not stand to do the seven uh we do not stand to do the seven uh we do not outgrow it. I would teach you the hand outgrow it. I would teach you the hand outgrow it. I would teach you the hand signs for the ten commandments, too, but

signs for the ten commandments, too, but signs for the ten commandments, too, but it falls beyond the scope of our it falls beyond the scope of our it falls beyond the scope of our rapturous conversation today. So, just rapturous conversation today. So, just rapturous conversation today. So, just let this sink in. The the book let this sink in. The the book let this sink in. The the book revelation is the seventh section of the revelation is the seventh section of the revelation is the seventh section of the canon in itself is divided into seven canon in itself is divided into seven canon in itself is divided into seven sections of which inside are seven sections of which inside are seven sections of which inside are seven subsection seven things. Seven seals, subsection seven things. Seven seals, subsection seven things. Seven seals, seven bowls, seven trumpets and so on. seven bowls, seven trumpets and so on. seven bowls, seven trumpets and so on. That kind of intricacy is is I I just That kind of intricacy is is I I just That kind of intricacy is is I I just don't think can be humanly explained. I don't think can be humanly explained. I don't think can be humanly explained. I think that that kind of intricacy is think that that kind of intricacy is think that that kind of intricacy is remarkable. So on that note though, what remarkable. So on that note though, what remarkable. So on that note though, what it does is it tells us the book of it does is it tells us the book of it does is it tells us the book of Revelation has a repetitive almost uh Revelation has a repetitive almost uh Revelation has a repetitive almost uh cyclical feel to that. What did you say cyclical feel to that. What did you say cyclical feel to that. What did you say in your Bible study about that, Jim? in your Bible study about that, Jim? in your Bible study about that, Jim? Well, I did talk about how um one of the Well, I did talk about how um one of the Well, I did talk about how um one of the reasons the book is hard for us is reasons the book is hard for us is reasons the book is hard for us is because I think that we have um not because I think that we have um not because I think that we have um not acknowledged its structure and therefore acknowledged its structure and therefore acknowledged its structure and therefore we're kind of cherrypicking the parts we're kind of cherrypicking the parts we're kind of cherrypicking the parts that seem the most interesting to us that seem the most interesting to us that seem the most interesting to us rather than asking what is the book as a rather than asking what is the book as a rather than asking what is the book as a whole wanting us to take away. Um whole wanting us to take away. Um whole wanting us to take away. Um Revelation is using recapitulation which Revelation is using recapitulation which Revelation is using recapitulation which is a an you a few extra syllables thrown is a an you a few extra syllables thrown is a an you a few extra syllables thrown in to just say it's repeating things. It in to just say it's repeating things. It in to just say it's repeating things. It is recapitulating the narratives that we is recapitulating the narratives that we is recapitulating the narratives that we see in the Old Testament. So you see a see in the Old Testament. So you see a see in the Old Testament. So you see a lot from Exodus that gets pulled in a lot from Exodus that gets pulled in a lot from Exodus that gets pulled in a lot from Genesis from the prophets as lot from Genesis from the prophets as lot from Genesis from the prophets as well. Um and it's expecting that you well. Um and it's expecting that you well. Um and it's expecting that you will know that it's doing that. Um but will know that it's doing that. Um but will know that it's doing that. Um but then it also has internal then it also has internal then it also has internal recapitulation. It is saying the same recapitulation. It is saying the same recapitulation. It is saying the same thing from multiple angles to um to thing from multiple angles to um to thing from multiple angles to um to heighten the point. Um repetition is the heighten the point. Um repetition is the heighten the point. Um repetition is the mother of learning and um I believe that mother of learning and um I believe that mother of learning and um I believe that the Apostle John understood that and I the Apostle John understood that and I the Apostle John understood that and I certainly believe that the Holy Spirit

certainly believe that the Holy Spirit certainly believe that the Holy Spirit understands that. And so the least understands that. And so the least understands that. And so the least surprising thing that you can find surprising thing that you can find surprising thing that you can find really in any book of the Bible is that really in any book of the Bible is that really in any book of the Bible is that there is repetition occurring. And the there is repetition occurring. And the there is repetition occurring. And the least surprising thing that we would least surprising thing that we would least surprising thing that we would think to find in the final book of the think to find in the final book of the think to find in the final book of the Bible is that repetition is occurring. Bible is that repetition is occurring. Bible is that repetition is occurring. And I would I told um the women in this And I would I told um the women in this And I would I told um the women in this study, I would go so far as to say that study, I would go so far as to say that study, I would go so far as to say that there is nothing new in the book of there is nothing new in the book of there is nothing new in the book of Revelation. um that what it is doing is Revelation. um that what it is doing is Revelation. um that what it is doing is pulling together the themes that we've pulling together the themes that we've pulling together the themes that we've seen throughout the rest of scripture seen throughout the rest of scripture seen throughout the rest of scripture for one final and full look. You know, for one final and full look. You know, for one final and full look. You know, one of one of the ways I describe it to one of one of the ways I describe it to one of one of the ways I describe it to my students when I teach the book is my students when I teach the book is my students when I teach the book is that there's you get seven glimpses of that there's you get seven glimpses of that there's you get seven glimpses of the last days. Seven glimpses of this the last days. Seven glimpses of this the last days. Seven glimpses of this block of time we're in called the last block of time we're in called the last block of time we're in called the last days. And that's actually one of the days. And that's actually one of the days. And that's actually one of the things that Revelation reminds us of is things that Revelation reminds us of is things that Revelation reminds us of is that we hear the term last days and we that we hear the term last days and we that we hear the term last days and we go back to our thief in the night uh go back to our thief in the night uh go back to our thief in the night uh 1980s background and we think last days 1980s background and we think last days 1980s background and we think last days is some distant future moment that is is some distant future moment that is is some distant future moment that is not here yet that is going to be really not here yet that is going to be really not here yet that is going to be really short in time. But the Bible reminds us short in time. But the Bible reminds us short in time. But the Bible reminds us that the the last days began at the that the the last days began at the that the the last days began at the first coming of Jesus and he inaugurated first coming of Jesus and he inaugurated first coming of Jesus and he inaugurated what the writers of the New Testament what the writers of the New Testament what the writers of the New Testament regularly refer to as the last days or regularly refer to as the last days or regularly refer to as the last days or the last times. So, what that means is the last times. So, what that means is the last times. So, what that means is is that the last days started, if you is that the last days started, if you is that the last days started, if you will, with the first coming and end and will, with the first coming and end and will, with the first coming and end and will cease at the second coming, which will cease at the second coming, which will cease at the second coming, which means that we're in the last days right means that we're in the last days right means that we're in the last days right now. Um, and the last last days have now. Um, and the last last days have now. Um, and the last last days have been going on. And so, the way I say it been going on. And so, the way I say it been going on. And so, the way I say it to my students is the last days are not to my students is the last days are not to my students is the last days are not a picture of quantity of time, but a but a picture of quantity of time, but a but a picture of quantity of time, but a but a statement about the kind of time you a statement about the kind of time you a statement about the kind of time you live in. And if you haven't thought live in. And if you haven't thought live in. And if you haven't thought about it, you live in the last days and

about it, you live in the last days and about it, you live in the last days and I live in the last days because we live I live in the last days because we live I live in the last days because we live in the kind of time where the next major in the kind of time where the next major in the kind of time where the next major esqueological event is the second coming esqueological event is the second coming esqueological event is the second coming and the restoration of all things. And and the restoration of all things. And and the restoration of all things. And if you live in that time where the next if you live in that time where the next if you live in that time where the next big esqueological event is the is the big esqueological event is the is the big esqueological event is the is the second coming and the restoration of all second coming and the restoration of all second coming and the restoration of all things, then you by definition live in things, then you by definition live in things, then you by definition live in the last days regardless of whether it the last days regardless of whether it the last days regardless of whether it lasts one week or 10,000 years. You live lasts one week or 10,000 years. You live lasts one week or 10,000 years. You live in the last days. And so the book of in the last days. And so the book of in the last days. And so the book of Revelation has seven glimpses of that Revelation has seven glimpses of that Revelation has seven glimpses of that period and often includes glimpses of period and often includes glimpses of period and often includes glimpses of the second coming uh throughout the the second coming uh throughout the the second coming uh throughout the whole book. Well, I think one of the whole book. Well, I think one of the whole book. Well, I think one of the ways that you can start to feel the ways that you can start to feel the ways that you can start to feel the pattern that's there in the book is if pattern that's there in the book is if pattern that's there in the book is if you because it can I'm I'm not you because it can I'm I'm not you because it can I'm I'm not pretending that on the first read pretending that on the first read pretending that on the first read through you're like, "Oh, yeah, there it through you're like, "Oh, yeah, there it through you're like, "Oh, yeah, there it is." But I think one of the ways that is." But I think one of the ways that is." But I think one of the ways that repeated readings of the book can help repeated readings of the book can help repeated readings of the book can help you to begin to see the rhythm that it's you to begin to see the rhythm that it's you to begin to see the rhythm that it's following is if you pay attention to following is if you pay attention to following is if you pay attention to when am when is my gaze downward to when am when is my gaze downward to when am when is my gaze downward to what's happening um on earth. Uh and what's happening um on earth. Uh and what's happening um on earth. Uh and then when is my gaze turned upward to then when is my gaze turned upward to then when is my gaze turned upward to what's happening in the heavenly throne what's happening in the heavenly throne what's happening in the heavenly throne room? And what you'll find is that there room? And what you'll find is that there room? And what you'll find is that there are seven upward gazes toward the are seven upward gazes toward the are seven upward gazes toward the heavenly throne room. And that can help heavenly throne room. And that can help heavenly throne room. And that can help you see how the rhythm plays out. Um, you see how the rhythm plays out. Um, you see how the rhythm plays out. Um, and then the the final upward gaze is and then the the final upward gaze is and then the the final upward gaze is the never- ending gaze of the uh the never- ending gaze of the uh the never- ending gaze of the uh unending seventh day essentially that we unending seventh day essentially that we unending seventh day essentially that we see in in the Revelation 21 and 22 with see in in the Revelation 21 and 22 with see in in the Revelation 21 and 22 with which many people are are familiar. And which many people are are familiar. And which many people are are familiar. And it is interesting how we're often very it is interesting how we're often very it is interesting how we're often very familiar with just portions of the book.

familiar with just portions of the book. familiar with just portions of the book. Like I think a lot of people know Like I think a lot of people know Like I think a lot of people know Revelation 4 and 5 and they know Revelation 4 and 5 and they know Revelation 4 and 5 and they know Revelation 2122. They've heard some Revelation 2122. They've heard some Revelation 2122. They've heard some creepy stuff about Armageddon and about creepy stuff about Armageddon and about creepy stuff about Armageddon and about getting a tattoo on their forehead or getting a tattoo on their forehead or getting a tattoo on their forehead or their wrist and the rest they're kind of their wrist and the rest they're kind of their wrist and the rest they're kind of like I don't know. It's like this mish like I don't know. It's like this mish like I don't know. It's like this mish mash of weird stuff. And the way that it mash of weird stuff. And the way that it mash of weird stuff. And the way that it starts to sort is when is is I believe starts to sort is when is is I believe starts to sort is when is is I believe through repeated readings. um we just through repeated readings. um we just through repeated readings. um we just it's very hard for us to um get into the it's very hard for us to um get into the it's very hard for us to um get into the skin of the original hearers of this skin of the original hearers of this skin of the original hearers of this book unless we're willing to just read book unless we're willing to just read book unless we're willing to just read it and read it again and read it again it and read it again and read it again it and read it again and read it again and read it again. But over time it and read it again. But over time it and read it again. But over time it begins to to yield its fruit. Um it it begins to to yield its fruit. Um it it begins to to yield its fruit. Um it it is I want to I don't want to pretend is I want to I don't want to pretend is I want to I don't want to pretend like apocalyptic the genre that that the like apocalyptic the genre that that the like apocalyptic the genre that that the book is written in is an easy genre for book is written in is an easy genre for book is written in is an easy genre for modern years. It's not. But like any modern years. It's not. But like any modern years. It's not. But like any genre that you learn, it gets easier the genre that you learn, it gets easier the genre that you learn, it gets easier the more you encounter it. So, like um when more you encounter it. So, like um when more you encounter it. So, like um when I was learning to appreciate different I was learning to appreciate different I was learning to appreciate different forms of poetry, I'm sure we've all been forms of poetry, I'm sure we've all been forms of poetry, I'm sure we've all been subjected to this during our elementary subjected to this during our elementary subjected to this during our elementary or middle school years where you had to or middle school years where you had to or middle school years where you had to read sonnetss and then you maybe had to read sonnetss and then you maybe had to read sonnetss and then you maybe had to write one and you're like, I don't want write one and you're like, I don't want write one and you're like, I don't want to write it the way that Shakespeare to write it the way that Shakespeare to write it the way that Shakespeare wrote it. I think that's dumb. I want to wrote it. I think that's dumb. I want to wrote it. I think that's dumb. I want to write free form or whatever, but there write free form or whatever, but there write free form or whatever, but there are rules to how a sonnet is written. Or are rules to how a sonnet is written. Or are rules to how a sonnet is written. Or the first time I read a ha coup poem, do the first time I read a ha coup poem, do the first time I read a ha coup poem, do you know what I thought? It didn't do you know what I thought? It didn't do you know what I thought? It didn't do much for me. Like, you couldn't even much for me. Like, you couldn't even much for me. Like, you couldn't even bother to rhyme these phrases. you know, bother to rhyme these phrases. you know, bother to rhyme these phrases. you know, I'm like a Dr. Seuss afficionado and I'm like a Dr. Seuss afficionado and I'm like a Dr. Seuss afficionado and here we are doing what are we doing? It here we are doing what are we doing? It here we are doing what are we doing? It was only three lines long. But then was only three lines long. But then was only three lines long. But then after you realize that it obeys a after you realize that it obeys a after you realize that it obeys a particular set of rules, then you're particular set of rules, then you're particular set of rules, then you're able to see just how beautifully and able to see just how beautifully and able to see just how beautifully and economically words are being used to

economically words are being used to economically words are being used to express deeper truth. That's the way all express deeper truth. That's the way all express deeper truth. That's the way all genres function to some degree. With genres function to some degree. With genres function to some degree. With apocalyptic, when you understand the apocalyptic, when you understand the apocalyptic, when you understand the how, then the meaning begins to yield how, then the meaning begins to yield how, then the meaning begins to yield itself up. And it doesn't just yield itself up. And it doesn't just yield itself up. And it doesn't just yield itself up woodenly. It yields itself up itself up woodenly. It yields itself up itself up woodenly. It yields itself up poetically and beautifully. Um, things poetically and beautifully. Um, things poetically and beautifully. Um, things that teach us through poetry are that teach us through poetry are that teach us through poetry are appealing to a deeper form of learning appealing to a deeper form of learning appealing to a deeper form of learning than things that simply tell us than things that simply tell us than things that simply tell us something outright. Um, if you are something outright. Um, if you are something outright. Um, if you are familiar with the phrase, oh, what a familiar with the phrase, oh, what a familiar with the phrase, oh, what a tangled web we weave when first we tangled web we weave when first we tangled web we weave when first we practice to, right? Why not just say, practice to, right? Why not just say, practice to, right? Why not just say, hey, don't hey, don't hey, don't lie. because there's some way that we lie. because there's some way that we lie. because there's some way that we take in that understanding and it's take in that understanding and it's take in that understanding and it's stickier for us when it's given to us in stickier for us when it's given to us in stickier for us when it's given to us in poetic language. And that's why in poetic language. And that's why in poetic language. And that's why in particular with the book of revelation, particular with the book of revelation, particular with the book of revelation, I think we need to allow ourselves to I think we need to allow ourselves to I think we need to allow ourselves to recognize that the the original poet, recognize that the the original poet, recognize that the the original poet, the poet who created all poets who have the poet who created all poets who have the poet who created all poets who have ever written poetry is God himself and ever written poetry is God himself and ever written poetry is God himself and that he condescends to us through poetry that he condescends to us through poetry that he condescends to us through poetry to teach us this last and most beautiful to teach us this last and most beautiful to teach us this last and most beautiful truth uh in his word. Yeah, you brought truth uh in his word. Yeah, you brought truth uh in his word. Yeah, you brought up the the issue of genre. Um this is up the the issue of genre. Um this is up the the issue of genre. Um this is one of the most critical things that one of the most critical things that one of the most critical things that makes reading revelation make sense. And makes reading revelation make sense. And makes reading revelation make sense. And I've seen this over the years teaching I've seen this over the years teaching I've seen this over the years teaching it both in churches and in the seminary it both in churches and in the seminary it both in churches and in the seminary context is that if you're going to if context is that if you're going to if context is that if you're going to if you're going to understand a book you're going to understand a book you're going to understand a book rightly, you've got to know the kind of rightly, you've got to know the kind of rightly, you've got to know the kind of book you're reading. Yeah. And that's book you're reading. Yeah. And that's book you're reading. Yeah. And that's true for any kind of literature. Um, you true for any kind of literature. Um, you true for any kind of literature. Um, you know, when I remember my kids were know, when I remember my kids were know, when I remember my kids were young, they they didn't understand what young, they they didn't understand what young, they they didn't understand what an infomercial was. And so the TV would

an infomercial was. And so the TV would an infomercial was. And so the TV would be on, probably shouldn't have left it be on, probably shouldn't have left it be on, probably shouldn't have left it on, but I'd go in the other room and I' on, but I'd go in the other room and I' on, but I'd go in the other room and I' I'd hear something and the kids would I'd hear something and the kids would I'd hear something and the kids would come running back and they're like, come running back and they're like, come running back and they're like, "Dad, they have this most amazing vacuum "Dad, they have this most amazing vacuum "Dad, they have this most amazing vacuum cleaner. You wouldn't believe what it cleaner. You wouldn't believe what it cleaner. You wouldn't believe what it can do." um they just had this news can do." um they just had this news can do." um they just had this news program about it and it can pick up program about it and it can pick up program about it and it can pick up stuff. We need to buy this thing. And stuff. We need to buy this thing. And stuff. We need to buy this thing. And I'm like, "What? What? What are you I'm like, "What? What? What are you I'm like, "What? What? What are you talking about on?" And they're like, talking about on?" And they're like, talking about on?" And they're like, "Yeah." And I walk in and they're "Yeah." And I walk in and they're "Yeah." And I walk in and they're watching an infomercial. And I'm I'm watching an infomercial. And I'm I'm watching an infomercial. And I'm I'm like, you know, infomercials aren't like, you know, infomercials aren't like, you know, infomercials aren't really always that accurate. And they're really always that accurate. And they're really always that accurate. And they're telling you half the story and really telling you half the story and really telling you half the story and really what you want to hear. This isn't news. what you want to hear. This isn't news. what you want to hear. This isn't news. This is an infomercial, right? And This is an infomercial, right? And This is an infomercial, right? And they're looking at me like, "But you got they're looking at me like, "But you got they're looking at me like, "But you got to buy the vacuum cleaner, right?" If to buy the vacuum cleaner, right?" If to buy the vacuum cleaner, right?" If you mix up genres, you realize that you mix up genres, you realize that you mix up genres, you realize that certain genres have a certain set of certain genres have a certain set of certain genres have a certain set of rules and certain set of expectations rules and certain set of expectations rules and certain set of expectations they create in you as a reader or a they create in you as a reader or a they create in you as a reader or a listener. Well, same with the book of listener. Well, same with the book of listener. Well, same with the book of Revelation. And this is where we come to Revelation. And this is where we come to Revelation. And this is where we come to the issue of apocalyptic literature. So, the issue of apocalyptic literature. So, the issue of apocalyptic literature. So, the the the the genre of apocalyptic the the the the genre of apocalyptic the the the the genre of apocalyptic literature is a genre you already have literature is a genre you already have literature is a genre you already have encountered in the Bible because it's in encountered in the Bible because it's in encountered in the Bible because it's in the Old Testament. The book of Daniel, the Old Testament. The book of Daniel, the Old Testament. The book of Daniel, book of Ezekiel, book of Zechariah, all book of Ezekiel, book of Zechariah, all book of Ezekiel, book of Zechariah, all apocalyptic literature. And apocalyptic apocalyptic literature. And apocalyptic apocalyptic literature. And apocalyptic literature is scary stuff. It's hard. literature is scary stuff. It's hard. literature is scary stuff. It's hard. It's difficult. But most importantly, It's difficult. But most importantly, It's difficult. But most importantly, it's highly symbolic. And this is one of it's highly symbolic. And this is one of it's highly symbolic. And this is one of the things. If you read the book of the things. If you read the book of the things. If you read the book of Revelation like you're reading the book Revelation like you're reading the book Revelation like you're reading the book of Exodus and expect it to just lay out of Exodus and expect it to just lay out of Exodus and expect it to just lay out chronological sort of narrative like chronological sort of narrative like chronological sort of narrative like events, then you're going to read it one events, then you're going to read it one events, then you're going to read it one way. But if you realize you're getting a way. But if you realize you're getting a way. But if you realize you're getting a highly visionary, highly symbolic piece highly visionary, highly symbolic piece highly visionary, highly symbolic piece of apocalyptic literature, you're going of apocalyptic literature, you're going of apocalyptic literature, you're going to read it very differently. Um, I'm to read it very differently. Um, I'm to read it very differently. Um, I'm sure you talked about that in your book, sure you talked about that in your book, sure you talked about that in your book, which I've not yet read. So, but yeah.

which I've not yet read. So, but yeah. which I've not yet read. So, but yeah. Well, I mean, it's a study. I don't want Well, I mean, it's a study. I don't want Well, I mean, it's a study. I don't want to hype people up and then they go buy to hype people up and then they go buy to hype people up and then they go buy it thinking they're going to read it thinking they're going to read it thinking they're going to read something and I'm making them do something and I'm making them do something and I'm making them do homework. So, just be clear. It is a homework. So, just be clear. It is a homework. So, just be clear. It is a study. you will work. Um, and and you study. you will work. Um, and and you study. you will work. Um, and and you will be confused and you will hate my will be confused and you will hate my will be confused and you will hate my guts for significant portions of it. Um, guts for significant portions of it. Um, guts for significant portions of it. Um, but yeah. So, what was the question but yeah. So, what was the question but yeah. So, what was the question again? I again? I again? I It's all about vacuum cleaners, Jen. It's all about vacuum cleaners, Jen. It's all about vacuum cleaners, Jen. That's what it's about. I need a new That's what it's about. I need a new That's what it's about. I need a new vacuum. I got that part. Yes. Um, no, vacuum. I got that part. Yes. Um, no, vacuum. I got that part. Yes. Um, no, it's about genres setting expectations it's about genres setting expectations it's about genres setting expectations of a literal reading versus a symbolic of a literal reading versus a symbolic of a literal reading versus a symbolic reading. Yeah. I I I one of the things I reading. Yeah. I I I one of the things I reading. Yeah. I I I one of the things I try to teach in in my efforts to try to teach in in my efforts to try to teach in in my efforts to increase Bible literacy is that um it's increase Bible literacy is that um it's increase Bible literacy is that um it's none of us should be reading the Bible none of us should be reading the Bible none of us should be reading the Bible literally. We should be reading the literally. We should be reading the literally. We should be reading the Bible literately, which means there are Bible literately, which means there are Bible literately, which means there are times in which you would take things in times in which you would take things in times in which you would take things in a very literal sense and there are times a very literal sense and there are times a very literal sense and there are times when you would ask um how how did the when you would ask um how how did the when you would ask um how how did the author intend for me to read this? And author intend for me to read this? And author intend for me to read this? And that those are very different things. that those are very different things. that those are very different things. Um, and so that means that um, when Um, and so that means that um, when Um, and so that means that um, when you're reading historical narrative, you you're reading historical narrative, you you're reading historical narrative, you would expect that much or most of what would expect that much or most of what would expect that much or most of what you're reading you would take in literal you're reading you would take in literal you're reading you would take in literal terms. Um, and then when you're reading terms. Um, and then when you're reading terms. Um, and then when you're reading something like apocalyptic, you would something like apocalyptic, you would something like apocalyptic, you would expect honestly that very little would expect honestly that very little would expect honestly that very little would be taken in literal terms. And it be taken in literal terms. And it be taken in literal terms. And it doesn't mean that there isn't a literal doesn't mean that there isn't a literal doesn't mean that there isn't a literal fulfillment of the things that are being fulfillment of the things that are being fulfillment of the things that are being talked about there. Um but that um when talked about there. Um but that um when talked about there. Um but that um when you read about a beast with um a bunch you read about a beast with um a bunch you read about a beast with um a bunch of horns and crowns, you're not of horns and crowns, you're not of horns and crowns, you're not expecting that a literal beast is going expecting that a literal beast is going expecting that a literal beast is going to um one day show up. You're thinking,

to um one day show up. You're thinking, to um one day show up. You're thinking, "Oh, that means something." Well, how do "Oh, that means something." Well, how do "Oh, that means something." Well, how do I know what it means? Because I know I know what it means? Because I know I know what it means? Because I know what horns have meant throughout what horns have meant throughout what horns have meant throughout scripture when they're used scripture when they're used scripture when they're used symbolically. Because I know what crowns symbolically. Because I know what crowns symbolically. Because I know what crowns have meant throughout scripture when have meant throughout scripture when have meant throughout scripture when I've seen them used symbolically. When I I've seen them used symbolically. When I I've seen them used symbolically. When I see the sun, moon, and the stars, I know see the sun, moon, and the stars, I know see the sun, moon, and the stars, I know how those have been used to mean how those have been used to mean how those have been used to mean something more than just the sun, moon, something more than just the sun, moon, something more than just the sun, moon, and the stars in other places in and the stars in other places in and the stars in other places in scripture that they are a reference scripture that they are a reference scripture that they are a reference often to the principal deities of the often to the principal deities of the often to the principal deities of the Canaanites or the Egyptians, which means Canaanites or the Egyptians, which means Canaanites or the Egyptians, which means I can associate idol worship with those. I can associate idol worship with those. I can associate idol worship with those. Do you see what I'm saying? Um, and so Do you see what I'm saying? Um, and so Do you see what I'm saying? Um, and so again, it doesn't mean that when um, again, it doesn't mean that when um, again, it doesn't mean that when um, Revelation speaks of um, the New Revelation speaks of um, the New Revelation speaks of um, the New Jerusalem as as not having heavenly Jerusalem as as not having heavenly Jerusalem as as not having heavenly bodies that we have to therefore say bodies that we have to therefore say bodies that we have to therefore say that's not literally true. It's just that's not literally true. It's just that's not literally true. It's just that we're not primarily concerned with that we're not primarily concerned with that we're not primarily concerned with deciding whether that's literally true deciding whether that's literally true deciding whether that's literally true or not. We're more concerned with asking or not. We're more concerned with asking or not. We're more concerned with asking what is being said about the New what is being said about the New what is being said about the New Jerusalem with the fact that it it is Jerusalem with the fact that it it is Jerusalem with the fact that it it is described as not having heavenly bodies. described as not having heavenly bodies. described as not having heavenly bodies. I would say that a symbolic reading of I would say that a symbolic reading of I would say that a symbolic reading of that means that in the new Jerusalem, that means that in the new Jerusalem, that means that in the new Jerusalem, worship will be given to no one but God worship will be given to no one but God worship will be given to no one but God alone. In other words, that the first alone. In other words, that the first alone. In other words, that the first commandment will finally and fully be commandment will finally and fully be commandment will finally and fully be fulfilled. Yeah. One of the ways I I fulfilled. Yeah. One of the ways I I fulfilled. Yeah. One of the ways I I describe it is some people read the book describe it is some people read the book describe it is some people read the book of Revelation like they're getting a of Revelation like they're getting a of Revelation like they're getting a videotape of the future. Um as if John videotape of the future. Um as if John videotape of the future. Um as if John had a video camera and he's filming had a video camera and he's filming had a video camera and he's filming what's happening. And by the way, I grew what's happening. And by the way, I grew what's happening. And by the way, I grew up, you probably did too, I grew up with up, you probably did too, I grew up with up, you probably did too, I grew up with a particular interpretive grid of a particular interpretive grid of a particular interpretive grid of Revelation that said when when John Revelation that said when when John Revelation that said when when John describes locusts that have uh tales

describes locusts that have uh tales describes locusts that have uh tales like like scorpions, you know, flying like like scorpions, you know, flying like like scorpions, you know, flying across the ground that that that those across the ground that that that those across the ground that that that those weren't really weird creatures like weren't really weird creatures like weren't really weird creatures like Revelation 11. Exactly. That what he's Revelation 11. Exactly. That what he's Revelation 11. Exactly. That what he's seeing are helicopters flying across the seeing are helicopters flying across the seeing are helicopters flying across the desert and he doesn't know what a desert and he doesn't know what a desert and he doesn't know what a helicopter is, so he describes it in the helicopter is, so he describes it in the helicopter is, so he describes it in the best way he can. That I think is a best way he can. That I think is a best way he can. That I think is a complete inversing of the of what complete inversing of the of what complete inversing of the of what apocalyptic literature is doing. apocalyptic literature is doing. apocalyptic literature is doing. Apocalyptic literature isn't showing a Apocalyptic literature isn't showing a Apocalyptic literature isn't showing a videotape of helicopters flying across a videotape of helicopters flying across a videotape of helicopters flying across a desert. Apocalyptic literature is giving desert. Apocalyptic literature is giving desert. Apocalyptic literature is giving you a highly symbolic vision of the last you a highly symbolic vision of the last you a highly symbolic vision of the last days which then has to be interpreted days which then has to be interpreted days which then has to be interpreted but it's highly symbolic and we're not but it's highly symbolic and we're not but it's highly symbolic and we're not going to expect a literal videotape of going to expect a literal videotape of going to expect a literal videotape of what's coming. Well, and we love what's coming. Well, and we love what's coming. Well, and we love certainty and um you know so many of the certainty and um you know so many of the certainty and um you know so many of the prayers that we we pray are Lord tell me prayers that we we pray are Lord tell me prayers that we we pray are Lord tell me what is going to happen or tell me what what is going to happen or tell me what what is going to happen or tell me what I should do. We want certainty. And so I should do. We want certainty. And so I should do. We want certainty. And so we tend to superimpose that on the book we tend to superimpose that on the book we tend to superimpose that on the book of Revelation and to ask the book to of Revelation and to ask the book to of Revelation and to ask the book to answer how when the book is primarily answer how when the book is primarily answer how when the book is primarily concerned with answering who and why. concerned with answering who and why. concerned with answering who and why. And um I I just like to set expectations And um I I just like to set expectations And um I I just like to set expectations for people when they're reading for people when they're reading for people when they're reading Revelation that um to remind them that Revelation that um to remind them that Revelation that um to remind them that the children of God walk not by sight the children of God walk not by sight the children of God walk not by sight but by faith. And so if you're expecting but by faith. And so if you're expecting but by faith. And so if you're expecting that the book of Revelation is going to that the book of Revelation is going to that the book of Revelation is going to give you a clearsighted diagnosis of give you a clearsighted diagnosis of give you a clearsighted diagnosis of what's in the headlines or what is what's in the headlines or what is what's in the headlines or what is coming in the immediate future, you're coming in the immediate future, you're coming in the immediate future, you're asking the book to do something. Not asking the book to do something. Not asking the book to do something. Not only that, that book is not trying to only that, that book is not trying to only that, that book is not trying to do, but I would argue that scripture is do, but I would argue that scripture is do, but I would argue that scripture is not trying to do. Yeah. One of the

not trying to do. Yeah. One of the not trying to do. Yeah. One of the things you mentioned there is what the things you mentioned there is what the things you mentioned there is what the core of Revelation is really about. And core of Revelation is really about. And core of Revelation is really about. And one of the things I think you and I even one of the things I think you and I even one of the things I think you and I even chatted about briefly and one thing I chatted about briefly and one thing I chatted about briefly and one thing I often reflect on with Revelation is that often reflect on with Revelation is that often reflect on with Revelation is that we would we would say that the entire we would we would say that the entire we would we would say that the entire Bible is about Christ. The entire Bible Bible is about Christ. The entire Bible Bible is about Christ. The entire Bible is about Jesus at some level and in is about Jesus at some level and in is about Jesus at some level and in different ways. Okay? Not every book is different ways. Okay? Not every book is different ways. Okay? Not every book is about Jesus in the same way. But I think about Jesus in the same way. But I think about Jesus in the same way. But I think you could make the argument that there's you could make the argument that there's you could make the argument that there's no book that's more Christ centered, no book that's more Christ centered, no book that's more Christ centered, Christ glorifying, Christ honoring, Christ glorifying, Christ honoring, Christ glorifying, Christ honoring, Christ exalting than the book of Christ exalting than the book of Christ exalting than the book of Revelation. And I really think that's Revelation. And I really think that's Revelation. And I really think that's what people miss when they miss the book what people miss when they miss the book what people miss when they miss the book of Revelation is that if we if we're too of Revelation is that if we if we're too of Revelation is that if we if we're too scared to get into it because of the the scared to get into it because of the the scared to get into it because of the the the hesitations we have and the and the the hesitations we have and the and the the hesitations we have and the and the and the concerns we have, we we miss one and the concerns we have, we we miss one and the concerns we have, we we miss one of the most beautiful pictures of Jesus. of the most beautiful pictures of Jesus. of the most beautiful pictures of Jesus. Well, but talk about the different like Well, but talk about the different like Well, but talk about the different like do we see a different version of Jesus do we see a different version of Jesus do we see a different version of Jesus in Revelation than we've seen in in the in Revelation than we've seen in in the in Revelation than we've seen in in the rest of the Bible? No, not not a not a rest of the Bible? No, not not a not a rest of the Bible? No, not not a not a different version of Jesus, but but you different version of Jesus, but but you different version of Jesus, but but you certainly see an exalted Jesus and you certainly see an exalted Jesus and you certainly see an exalted Jesus and you see a consummated reigning Jesus. Um, see a consummated reigning Jesus. Um, see a consummated reigning Jesus. Um, it's it's a little bit like when when it's it's a little bit like when when it's it's a little bit like when when the disciples saw the transfiguration, the disciples saw the transfiguration, the disciples saw the transfiguration, right? They it's not a different Jesus right? They it's not a different Jesus right? They it's not a different Jesus than the Jesus therewith, but it is a a than the Jesus therewith, but it is a a than the Jesus therewith, but it is a a picture of his exalted glory. And in picture of his exalted glory. And in picture of his exalted glory. And in Revelation, what you end up getting is a Revelation, what you end up getting is a Revelation, what you end up getting is a picture of his his wedding day. Um, and picture of his his wedding day. Um, and picture of his his wedding day. Um, and what's better than the wedding day, what's better than the wedding day, what's better than the wedding day, right? Where um it's not just Jesus right? Where um it's not just Jesus right? Where um it's not just Jesus who's who's center, but the bride who's who's who's center, but the bride who's who's who's center, but the bride who's center. and you realize the great center. and you realize the great center. and you realize the great biblical romance ends up being being biblical romance ends up being being biblical romance ends up being being consummated in a way that everybody was consummated in a way that everybody was consummated in a way that everybody was longing for for thousands of years. Why longing for for thousands of years. Why longing for for thousands of years. Why do you think that Revelation doesn't do you think that Revelation doesn't do you think that Revelation doesn't wait to show us Christ? Like it's right

wait to show us Christ? Like it's right wait to show us Christ? Like it's right at the beginning. What what do you think at the beginning. What what do you think at the beginning. What what do you think is going on there? is going on there? is going on there? Well, I mean, I think the whole book Well, I mean, I think the whole book Well, I mean, I think the whole book from front to back is about Christ. And from front to back is about Christ. And from front to back is about Christ. And the very first vision of Christ in the very first vision of Christ in the very first vision of Christ in Revelation 1 is is an apocalyptic Revelation 1 is is an apocalyptic Revelation 1 is is an apocalyptic vision, right? You you you notice that vision, right? You you you notice that vision, right? You you you notice that in Revelation one when it's a picture of in Revelation one when it's a picture of in Revelation one when it's a picture of Christ, it's pulling from so many Christ, it's pulling from so many Christ, it's pulling from so many different Old Testament passages right different Old Testament passages right different Old Testament passages right at the beginning. And it's ju John. You at the beginning. And it's ju John. You at the beginning. And it's ju John. You remember that John knew Jesus and John remember that John knew Jesus and John remember that John knew Jesus and John hears the voice of Jesus and he turns hears the voice of Jesus and he turns hears the voice of Jesus and he turns and looks and the Jesus he sees is not and looks and the Jesus he sees is not and looks and the Jesus he sees is not the Jesus he remembers because the Jesus the Jesus he remembers because the Jesus the Jesus he remembers because the Jesus he he sees is got, you know, a sword he he sees is got, you know, a sword he he sees is got, you know, a sword coming out of his mouth. The Jesus he coming out of his mouth. The Jesus he coming out of his mouth. The Jesus he sees is is got feet like bronze and sees is is got feet like bronze and sees is is got feet like bronze and iron. The Jesus he sees is glorified and iron. The Jesus he sees is glorified and iron. The Jesus he sees is glorified and powerful and dressed in priestly garb. powerful and dressed in priestly garb. powerful and dressed in priestly garb. The Jesus he sees is actually a The Jesus he sees is actually a The Jesus he sees is actually a reflection of the son of man imagery in reflection of the son of man imagery in reflection of the son of man imagery in Daniel 7. Um and so you get the ex sort Daniel 7. Um and so you get the ex sort Daniel 7. Um and so you get the ex sort of the exalted glorious Jesus from from of the exalted glorious Jesus from from of the exalted glorious Jesus from from moment one right out of the gate. Not moment one right out of the gate. Not moment one right out of the gate. Not trying to not trying to cover him up. trying to not trying to cover him up. trying to not trying to cover him up. Yeah. Exactly. And really this is the Yeah. Exactly. And really this is the Yeah. Exactly. And really this is the one you've been worshiping. This is the one you've been worshiping. This is the one you've been worshiping. This is the warrior who's going to win. This is the warrior who's going to win. This is the warrior who's going to win. This is the the victorious one. And it also makes the victorious one. And it also makes the victorious one. And it also makes the reader in one sense when you read the reader in one sense when you read the reader in one sense when you read the book of Revelation ask um who's the book of Revelation ask um who's the book of Revelation ask um who's whose side am I on here? and I've got to whose side am I on here? and I've got to whose side am I on here? and I've got to be very careful that I'm on the correct be very careful that I'm on the correct be very careful that I'm on the correct side because that is the the king of the side because that is the the king of the side because that is the the king of the universe and I want to make sure that universe and I want to make sure that universe and I want to make sure that that I'm on his side. Yeah, I that was that I'm on his side. Yeah, I that was that I'm on his side. Yeah, I that was what's fascinating. The more time that I what's fascinating. The more time that I what's fascinating. The more time that I spent I I hoped that when I went through spent I I hoped that when I went through spent I I hoped that when I went through Revelation again, I'd be able to set Revelation again, I'd be able to set Revelation again, I'd be able to set aside um all of the scary thoughts that aside um all of the scary thoughts that aside um all of the scary thoughts that I had as a child. Um but truthfully, I had as a child. Um but truthfully, I had as a child. Um but truthfully, it's a balance. It's a balance of deep

it's a balance. It's a balance of deep it's a balance. It's a balance of deep encouragement for those who are found in encouragement for those who are found in encouragement for those who are found in Christ. um that it's it's it is a it's Christ. um that it's it's it is a it's Christ. um that it's it's it is a it's like the ultimate expression of union like the ultimate expression of union like the ultimate expression of union with Christ in in the in the book of with Christ in in the in the book of with Christ in in the in the book of Revelation that these the faithful Revelation that these the faithful Revelation that these the faithful saints, the ones who are robed in white, saints, the ones who are robed in white, saints, the ones who are robed in white, just how truly safe they are, even just how truly safe they are, even just how truly safe they are, even though the appearance on earth might be though the appearance on earth might be though the appearance on earth might be the complete opposite that their the complete opposite that their the complete opposite that their heavenly reality is complete and utter heavenly reality is complete and utter heavenly reality is complete and utter security in Christ. And then also like security in Christ. And then also like security in Christ. And then also like in a similar way to the book of Hebrews, in a similar way to the book of Hebrews, in a similar way to the book of Hebrews, you have these moments where you have to you have these moments where you have to you have these moments where you have to check yourself and ask, but am I living check yourself and ask, but am I living check yourself and ask, but am I living as a person who is joined to Christ in as a person who is joined to Christ in as a person who is joined to Christ in this manner, it is still instructive for this manner, it is still instructive for this manner, it is still instructive for the believer to see this vision of the the believer to see this vision of the the believer to see this vision of the exalted Christ? I enjoyed thinking about exalted Christ? I enjoyed thinking about exalted Christ? I enjoyed thinking about how John was present at the how John was present at the how John was present at the transfiguration and then also sees the transfiguration and then also sees the transfiguration and then also sees the unveiling of Christ in his apocalyptic unveiling of Christ in his apocalyptic unveiling of Christ in his apocalyptic vision and how he had a little bit of a vision and how he had a little bit of a vision and how he had a little bit of a dry run for what he was going to see dry run for what he was going to see dry run for what he was going to see when he sees the unveiling of Christ um when he sees the unveiling of Christ um when he sees the unveiling of Christ um in the apocalypse in his vision of in the apocalypse in his vision of in the apocalypse in his vision of Christ. Dry run is the right language Christ. Dry run is the right language Christ. Dry run is the right language because in other texts it's clear that because in other texts it's clear that because in other texts it's clear that the the transfiguration in Jesus's the the transfiguration in Jesus's the the transfiguration in Jesus's earthly ministry was not just proof of earthly ministry was not just proof of earthly ministry was not just proof of his divinity. Yeah. It was dry runs a his divinity. Yeah. It was dry runs a his divinity. Yeah. It was dry runs a good word. a picture of his glory at his good word. a picture of his glory at his good word. a picture of his glory at his second coming. Yeah. Um and Peter second coming. Yeah. Um and Peter second coming. Yeah. Um and Peter actually makes this clear in second actually makes this clear in second actually makes this clear in second Peter that the transfiguration was in Peter that the transfiguration was in Peter that the transfiguration was in one sense a guarantee that Christ will one sense a guarantee that Christ will one sense a guarantee that Christ will be glorified like this. Yeah. At his be glorified like this. Yeah. At his be glorified like this. Yeah. At his second coming. Okay. So, here's here's a second coming. Okay. So, here's here's a second coming. Okay. So, here's here's a final thought for you, Jen, as we um final thought for you, Jen, as we um final thought for you, Jen, as we um head to the end. And it's the it's head to the end. And it's the it's head to the end. And it's the it's what's on all your minds, by the way. I what's on all your minds, by the way. I what's on all your minds, by the way. I know what all of you are thinking. Um know what all of you are thinking. Um know what all of you are thinking. Um you want If only we had 10 extra

you want If only we had 10 extra you want If only we had 10 extra minutes, but Jen got here late. Yeah, we minutes, but Jen got here late. Yeah, we minutes, but Jen got here late. Yeah, we Yeah, exactly. We could keep going, but Yeah, exactly. We could keep going, but Yeah, exactly. We could keep going, but then someone else will be late. Um, so then someone else will be late. Um, so then someone else will be late. Um, so you want to know what 666 means, don't you want to know what 666 means, don't you want to know what 666 means, don't you? All right, let's pray. All right. you? All right, let's pray. All right. you? All right, let's pray. All right. Okay. No, we're not going to leave you Okay. No, we're not going to leave you Okay. No, we're not going to leave you hanging. Um, what do you say in your hanging. Um, what do you say in your hanging. Um, what do you say in your book about 666? So, we talk a lot about book about 666? So, we talk a lot about book about 666? So, we talk a lot about numbers and not in a voodoo and numbers and not in a voodoo and numbers and not in a voodoo and witchcraft way, but in how does the witchcraft way, but in how does the witchcraft way, but in how does the Bible use numbers? And the number six Bible use numbers? And the number six Bible use numbers? And the number six has to do with the sixth day of has to do with the sixth day of has to do with the sixth day of creation, which is the day on which creation, which is the day on which creation, which is the day on which humankind was created. And so when we humankind was created. And so when we humankind was created. And so when we see that there are those who are marked see that there are those who are marked see that there are those who are marked with three sixes, we see a statement with three sixes, we see a statement with three sixes, we see a statement about um the earth dwellers, which is a about um the earth dwellers, which is a about um the earth dwellers, which is a whole category in in the book of whole category in in the book of whole category in in the book of Revelation, those who um worship the Revelation, those who um worship the Revelation, those who um worship the kingdom of this world. Um and what we kingdom of this world. Um and what we kingdom of this world. Um and what we often forget is that in the book of often forget is that in the book of often forget is that in the book of Revelation, it's not just the earth Revelation, it's not just the earth Revelation, it's not just the earth dwellers who receive a mark. That the dwellers who receive a mark. That the dwellers who receive a mark. That the saints receive a mark as well. They're saints receive a mark as well. They're saints receive a mark as well. They're marked as holy unto the Lord. Not only marked as holy unto the Lord. Not only marked as holy unto the Lord. Not only that, but what do we hear repeated in that, but what do we hear repeated in that, but what do we hear repeated in the heavenly throne room about God the heavenly throne room about God the heavenly throne room about God himself? that he is three times what?

himself? that he is three times what? himself? that he is three times what? And what's the number we associate with And what's the number we associate with And what's the number we associate with holiness? Seven. So in a very real holiness? Seven. So in a very real holiness? Seven. So in a very real sense, the saints are marked with seven sense, the saints are marked with seven sense, the saints are marked with seven seven7. Uh in much the way if you look seven7. Uh in much the way if you look seven7. Uh in much the way if you look back at the Old Testament, do you back at the Old Testament, do you back at the Old Testament, do you remember the priesthood um how the remember the priesthood um how the remember the priesthood um how the priest had on his um head wore a plaque priest had on his um head wore a plaque priest had on his um head wore a plaque that said holy to the Lord on his that said holy to the Lord on his that said holy to the Lord on his turban. And what does Revelation say? It turban. And what does Revelation say? It turban. And what does Revelation say? It says that we have become a kingdom and says that we have become a kingdom and says that we have become a kingdom and priests to God. And so when the saints priests to God. And so when the saints priests to God. And so when the saints are depicted in the book of Revelation, are depicted in the book of Revelation, are depicted in the book of Revelation, they are depicted as having received a they are depicted as having received a they are depicted as having received a seal on their foreheads. And once you seal on their foreheads. And once you seal on their foreheads. And once you receive that seal, can it be removed? receive that seal, can it be removed? receive that seal, can it be removed? No. And so all of that time that I spent No. And so all of that time that I spent No. And so all of that time that I spent wanting to go to therapy thinking wanting to go to therapy thinking wanting to go to therapy thinking someone was going to hold me down and someone was going to hold me down and someone was going to hold me down and tattoo a 666 on my forehead, wasted tattoo a 666 on my forehead, wasted tattoo a 666 on my forehead, wasted effort. effort. effort. Well, your therapist was glad to do it, Well, your therapist was glad to do it, Well, your therapist was glad to do it, I'm sure. Um, for I'm sure. Um, for I'm sure. Um, for $666 a session. Yes, $666 a session. Yes, $666 a session. Yes, exactly. I actually was at a store exactly. I actually was at a store exactly. I actually was at a store checking out one time and it was checking out one time and it was checking out one time and it was $6.66 and I was like, "You got to give $6.66 and I was like, "You got to give $6.66 and I was like, "You got to give me a pack of gum or something here." Um, me a pack of gum or something here." Um, me a pack of gum or something here." Um, no. So, the way I say it is is if God's no. So, the way I say it is is if God's no. So, the way I say it is is if God's number is seven and he's the creator, number is seven and he's the creator, number is seven and he's the creator, what's what's man's number? What's the what's what's man's number? What's the what's what's man's number? What's the creature's number? Six. And 666 is this creature's number? Six. And 666 is this creature's number? Six. And 666 is this bold picture of of a creature trying to bold picture of of a creature trying to bold picture of of a creature trying to be God, but not. And that, of course, be God, but not. And that, of course, be God, but not. And that, of course, was what the Antichrist was ultimately was what the Antichrist was ultimately was what the Antichrist was ultimately about. So, um, I guess we don't have to about. So, um, I guess we don't have to about. So, um, I guess we don't have to worry about, you know, some brand on our worry about, you know, some brand on our worry about, you know, some brand on our our our forehead or our hand. It used to our our forehead or our hand. It used to our our forehead or our hand. It used to scare me so much. I was the same way. I scare me so much. I was the same way. I scare me so much. I was the same way. I was like, I remember when when I grew up was like, I remember when when I grew up was like, I remember when when I grew up in the 80s, you know, the the mark of in the 80s, you know, the the mark of in the 80s, you know, the the mark of the beast. People thought Gorbachev had

the beast. People thought Gorbachev had the beast. People thought Gorbachev had that. You remember that spot Gorbachev that. You remember that spot Gorbachev that. You remember that spot Gorbachev had on his head? That was the mark of had on his head? That was the mark of had on his head? That was the mark of the beast. That poor man. That poor guy, the beast. That poor man. That poor guy, the beast. That poor man. That poor guy, man. Imagine that. Like, I'm just trying man. Imagine that. Like, I'm just trying man. Imagine that. Like, I'm just trying to be in politics and now I'm the devil. to be in politics and now I'm the devil. to be in politics and now I'm the devil. Um and well here's a real simple as we Um and well here's a real simple as we Um and well here's a real simple as we close just a really simple I my joke has close just a really simple I my joke has close just a really simple I my joke has been we need less of a left behind been we need less of a left behind been we need less of a left behind approach and more of a look behind approach and more of a look behind approach and more of a look behind approach to the book of revelation. What approach to the book of revelation. What approach to the book of revelation. What does Deuteronomy 6 command the children does Deuteronomy 6 command the children does Deuteronomy 6 command the children of God to do? To take God's word and of God to do? To take God's word and of God to do? To take God's word and bind it where? On your forehead and on bind it where? On your forehead and on bind it where? On your forehead and on your wrist. And you know there are there your wrist. And you know there are there your wrist. And you know there are there are modern day Orthodox Jews who took are modern day Orthodox Jews who took are modern day Orthodox Jews who took that that that literally. But it was meant to be at literally. But it was meant to be at literally. But it was meant to be at bare minimum a figurative understanding. bare minimum a figurative understanding. bare minimum a figurative understanding. What? That our thoughts and our doing What? That our thoughts and our doing What? That our thoughts and our doing would be marked by the work of the would be marked by the work of the would be marked by the work of the spirit and not by the kingdoms of this spirit and not by the kingdoms of this spirit and not by the kingdoms of this world. And so again, it's not a new world. And so again, it's not a new world. And so again, it's not a new idea. It's an old idea recently idea. It's an old idea recently idea. It's an old idea recently forgotten. And so I think a lot of the forgotten. And so I think a lot of the forgotten. And so I think a lot of the work that we do when we're in Revelation work that we do when we're in Revelation work that we do when we're in Revelation is a work of retrieval of what we should is a work of retrieval of what we should is a work of retrieval of what we should have gleaned from the books that came have gleaned from the books that came have gleaned from the books that came before. A lot of peace and assurance before. A lot of peace and assurance before. A lot of peace and assurance there. That's a a great way to to wrap there. That's a a great way to to wrap there. That's a a great way to to wrap things up. We want to thank you for things up. We want to thank you for things up. We want to thank you for being a part of this discussion and um being a part of this discussion and um being a part of this discussion and um we we're going to make sure that Jen we we're going to make sure that Jen we we're going to make sure that Jen stays an extra 10 minutes over here on stays an extra 10 minutes over here on stays an extra 10 minutes over here on the side to to talk with you. Thanks for the side to to talk with you. Thanks for the side to to talk with you. Thanks for being here.