C. S. Lewis, the New Atheists, & the Failure to Disprove God w/Alister McGrath [Gospelbound Ep. 184]

To me, um, To me, um, most significantly, I think, is that most significantly, I think, is that most significantly, I think, is that we've moved away from what I might we've moved away from what I might we've moved away from what I might unfairly call kind of hyper-rationalist unfairly call kind of hyper-rationalist unfairly call kind of hyper-rationalist approach. You know, you prove things are approach. You know, you prove things are approach. You know, you prove things are true to a realization that everything in true to a realization that everything in true to a realization that everything in life that you life that you life that you really value, the belief in God, for really value, the belief in God, for really value, the belief in God, for example, is not something you can example, is not something you can example, is not something you can absolutely prove to be true, but is absolutely prove to be true, but is absolutely prove to be true, but is nonetheless absolutely transformative. >> Alister McGrath remembers life as an >> Alister McGrath remembers life as an atheist back in the late 1960s. atheist back in the late 1960s. atheist back in the late 1960s. He believed only what could be proven to He believed only what could be proven to He believed only what could be proven to be true, and he judged religion and be true, and he judged religion and be true, and he judged religion and religious believers for trusting in an religious believers for trusting in an religious believers for trusting in an irrational fantasy. irrational fantasy. irrational fantasy. Looking back, though, he can see an Looking back, though, he can see an Looking back, though, he can see an emotional basis for what he thought were emotional basis for what he thought were emotional basis for what he thought were purely rational conclusions. He didn't purely rational conclusions. He didn't purely rational conclusions. He didn't want God to exist because God would then want God to exist because God would then want God to exist because God would then threaten his freedom. As an atheist, he threaten his freedom. As an atheist, he threaten his freedom. As an atheist, he could do whatever he wanted. He could be could do whatever he wanted. He could be could do whatever he wanted. He could be the center of the universe.

the center of the universe. the center of the universe. Now as a Christian and one of the most Now as a Christian and one of the most Now as a Christian and one of the most well-known apologists in the world, well-known apologists in the world, well-known apologists in the world, McGrath sees how much desire determines McGrath sees how much desire determines McGrath sees how much desire determines what we believe about the universe. what we believe about the universe. what we believe about the universe. And he says this, quote, "The human And he says this, quote, "The human And he says this, quote, "The human desire for unaccountability desire for unaccountability desire for unaccountability leads to the metaphysical conclusion leads to the metaphysical conclusion leads to the metaphysical conclusion that there should not be a God." that there should not be a God." that there should not be a God." Well, last summer, McGrath and I caught Well, last summer, McGrath and I caught Well, last summer, McGrath and I caught up when he was the keynote speaker at a up when he was the keynote speaker at a up when he was the keynote speaker at a Beeson Divinity School conference on Beeson Divinity School conference on Beeson Divinity School conference on persuasive preaching. I was invited to, persuasive preaching. I was invited to, persuasive preaching. I was invited to, you know, engage and respond to his you know, engage and respond to his you know, engage and respond to his presentation. And Alister is a presentation. And Alister is a presentation. And Alister is a theologian and Christian apologist with theologian and Christian apologist with theologian and Christian apologist with a particular interest in the a particular interest in the a particular interest in the relationship between science and faith, relationship between science and faith, relationship between science and faith, and in fact, he recently retired as a and in fact, he recently retired as a and in fact, he recently retired as a professor of science and religion at professor of science and religion at professor of science and religion at Oxford University. Oxford University. Oxford University. I've known him as a godly encourager, a I've known him as a godly encourager, a I've known him as a godly encourager, a kind interlocutor. I've learned a lot kind interlocutor. I've learned a lot kind interlocutor. I've learned a lot from him on various subjects, especially from him on various subjects, especially from him on various subjects, especially C.S. Lewis. In fact, C.S. Lewis. In fact, C.S. Lewis. In fact, I was listening to him at Lanier Library I was listening to him at Lanier Library I was listening to him at Lanier Library in Houston when he inspired me to begin in Houston when he inspired me to begin in Houston when he inspired me to begin work on a book about Lewis and Winston work on a book about Lewis and Winston work on a book about Lewis and Winston Churchill. So, I'm excited to talk with Churchill. So, I'm excited to talk with Churchill. So, I'm excited to talk with him again about atheism and apologetics him again about atheism and apologetics him again about atheism and apologetics and a heavy dose of Lewis. Alister, and a heavy dose of Lewis. Alister, and a heavy dose of Lewis. Alister, thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound.

thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. >> It's great to be with you. Thank you for >> It's great to be with you. Thank you for >> It's great to be with you. Thank you for having me. having me. having me. >> Alister, many but not all will know your >> Alister, many but not all will know your >> Alister, many but not all will know your story. story. story. Briefly recount for us how did you move Briefly recount for us how did you move Briefly recount for us how did you move from atheism to Christianity in 1971? from atheism to Christianity in 1971? from atheism to Christianity in 1971? >> Well, you're very kind to begin to tell >> Well, you're very kind to begin to tell >> Well, you're very kind to begin to tell that story, but I think I'd want to that story, but I think I'd want to that story, but I think I'd want to expand a little bit. I think that expand a little bit. I think that expand a little bit. I think that if I can put it like this, when in my if I can put it like this, when in my if I can put it like this, when in my late teenage years, I I began to realize late teenage years, I I began to realize late teenage years, I I began to realize that um although I that um although I that um although I believed passionately there was no God believed passionately there was no God believed passionately there was no God and didn't want there to be a God. and didn't want there to be a God. and didn't want there to be a God. You're quite right, desire played a very You're quite right, desire played a very You're quite right, desire played a very big role in this. big role in this. big role in this. I had this embarrassing experience of I had this embarrassing experience of I had this embarrassing experience of realizing I couldn't prove there was no realizing I couldn't prove there was no realizing I couldn't prove there was no God. So, I was in this dilemma. I was I God. So, I was in this dilemma. I was I God. So, I was in this dilemma. I was I wanted to live in the world where I only wanted to live in the world where I only wanted to live in the world where I only believed stuff I could prove. And yet believed stuff I could prove. And yet believed stuff I could prove. And yet one of my core beliefs, there is no God, one of my core beliefs, there is no God, one of my core beliefs, there is no God, I couldn't prove it. And so, if you I couldn't prove it. And so, if you I couldn't prove it. And so, if you like, it left me very, very like, it left me very, very like, it left me very, very uncomfortable because supposing there uncomfortable because supposing there uncomfortable because supposing there were other things I couldn't prove to be were other things I couldn't prove to be were other things I couldn't prove to be true that might actually be rather true that might actually be rather true that might actually be rather exciting and possibly even were true exciting and possibly even were true exciting and possibly even were true even though I couldn't prove they were even though I couldn't prove they were even though I couldn't prove they were true. So, I arrived at Oxford thinking true. So, I arrived at Oxford thinking true. So, I arrived at Oxford thinking I'll sort myself out in Oxford. There I'll sort myself out in Oxford. There I'll sort myself out in Oxford. There are lots of clever atheists here.

are lots of clever atheists here. are lots of clever atheists here. Which there were, but there were lots of Which there were, but there were lots of Which there were, but there were lots of clever Christians as well. So, they they clever Christians as well. So, they they clever Christians as well. So, they they helped me really discover what helped me really discover what helped me really discover what Christianity was all about. They began Christianity was all about. They began Christianity was all about. They began to deal with my intellectual questions. to deal with my intellectual questions. to deal with my intellectual questions. And cut a long story short, I began to And cut a long story short, I began to And cut a long story short, I began to realize Christianity was brilliant and realize Christianity was brilliant and realize Christianity was brilliant and embraced it and was very, very excited. embraced it and was very, very excited. embraced it and was very, very excited. And then began this wonderful process of And then began this wonderful process of And then began this wonderful process of exploring it, trying to go deeper. And exploring it, trying to go deeper. And exploring it, trying to go deeper. And that's when I began to read C.S. Lewis. that's when I began to read C.S. Lewis. that's when I began to read C.S. Lewis. And Lewis really spoke to me very, very And Lewis really spoke to me very, very And Lewis really spoke to me very, very powerfully and helpfully. And really powerfully and helpfully. And really powerfully and helpfully. And really since then, I've just kept on reading since then, I've just kept on reading since then, I've just kept on reading him cuz he keeps repaying you in a big him cuz he keeps repaying you in a big him cuz he keeps repaying you in a big way. way. way. >> Even since you and I have last talked, >> Even since you and I have last talked, >> Even since you and I have last talked, I've been writing and reading a lot I've been writing and reading a lot I've been writing and reading a lot about Lewis. So, a lot of different about Lewis. So, a lot of different about Lewis. So, a lot of different directions that we could go here. directions that we could go here. directions that we could go here. Um Um Um one question would be then one question would be then one question would be then based on Lewis, did your conversion then based on Lewis, did your conversion then based on Lewis, did your conversion then follow in stages as his did or was it follow in stages as his did or was it follow in stages as his did or was it rather sort of an overnight rather sort of an overnight rather sort of an overnight transformation? transformation? transformation? >> If you'd like, it was um >> If you'd like, it was um >> If you'd like, it was um not quite instantaneous, but it was this not quite instantaneous, but it was this not quite instantaneous, but it was this growing realization, this makes an awful growing realization, this makes an awful growing realization, this makes an awful lot of sense. This is very exciting. I lot of sense. This is very exciting. I lot of sense. This is very exciting. I can see this.

can see this. can see this. I can't prove it, but hey, I can't prove I can't prove it, but hey, I can't prove I can't prove it, but hey, I can't prove anything that really matters. anything that really matters. anything that really matters. Why don't I Why don't I Why don't I take a leap? Not a leap into its take a leap? Not a leap into its take a leap? Not a leap into its darkness, but a leap into a reality that darkness, but a leap into a reality that darkness, but a leap into a reality that everything within me said it's there. everything within me said it's there. everything within me said it's there. You know, go. So, I decided I would go You know, go. So, I decided I would go You know, go. So, I decided I would go and see if the reality turned out to be and see if the reality turned out to be and see if the reality turned out to be what I hoped it was. And it did. So, if what I hoped it was. And it did. So, if what I hoped it was. And it did. So, if you like, it was a process, um you like, it was a process, um you like, it was a process, um but a quite a quick process. And then a but a quite a quick process. And then a but a quite a quick process. And then a longer process once I'd decided to longer process once I'd decided to longer process once I'd decided to embrace Christianity of really embrace Christianity of really embrace Christianity of really appreciating what it was and beginning appreciating what it was and beginning appreciating what it was and beginning to develop its many, many facets and to develop its many, many facets and to develop its many, many facets and think them through. think them through. think them through. >> Your work, Alister, is so wide-ranging. >> Your work, Alister, is so wide-ranging. >> Your work, Alister, is so wide-ranging. It's one of the things that makes you It's one of the things that makes you It's one of the things that makes you similar to Lewis in in many ways. similar to Lewis in in many ways. similar to Lewis in in many ways. Uh was there a particular work of Uh was there a particular work of Uh was there a particular work of Lewis's at that time that especially Lewis's at that time that especially Lewis's at that time that especially resonated with your story? Would you resonated with your story? Would you resonated with your story? Would you find that to be Oh, I find that to be Oh, I find that to be Oh, I that I recognize that. that I recognize that. that I recognize that. >> Yeah, that that's a a really good >> Yeah, that that's a a really good >> Yeah, that that's a a really good question. I think um question. I think um question. I think um I think the first book I bought by Lewis I think the first book I bought by Lewis I think the first book I bought by Lewis and read by Lewis was They Asked for a and read by Lewis was They Asked for a and read by Lewis was They Asked for a Paper and it included an essay called Is Paper and it included an essay called Is Paper and it included an essay called Is Theology Poetry, which was a lecture Theology Poetry, which was a lecture Theology Poetry, which was a lecture that Lewis gave to the Socratic Club of that Lewis gave to the Socratic Club of that Lewis gave to the Socratic Club of Oxford back in I guess 1945.

Oxford back in I guess 1945. Oxford back in I guess 1945. But anyway, this this was all about But anyway, this this was all about But anyway, this this was all about Christianity as a big of reality. And Christianity as a big of reality. And Christianity as a big of reality. And once I saw what Lewis was saying, that once I saw what Lewis was saying, that once I saw what Lewis was saying, that that it's as if someone turned the light that it's as if someone turned the light that it's as if someone turned the light on in my mind. You suddenly thought, on in my mind. You suddenly thought, on in my mind. You suddenly thought, that's it. I get it. And it was this that's it. I get it. And it was this that's it. I get it. And it was this final sentence, I believe in final sentence, I believe in final sentence, I believe in Christianity as I believe the sun has Christianity as I believe the sun has Christianity as I believe the sun has risen, not only because I see it but risen, not only because I see it but risen, not only because I see it but because by it I see everything else. I because by it I see everything else. I because by it I see everything else. I thought this that that is right. I I can thought this that that is right. I I can thought this that that is right. I I can work with that. It it corresponds to my work with that. It it corresponds to my work with that. It it corresponds to my experience and I can see where I can go experience and I can see where I can go experience and I can see where I can go with this. And so that was A the with this. And so that was A the with this. And so that was A the beginning of my reading of Lewis beginning of my reading of Lewis beginning of my reading of Lewis intensively and also my beginnings of intensively and also my beginnings of intensively and also my beginnings of realizing that actually I might be able realizing that actually I might be able realizing that actually I might be able to help other people who are atheists to help other people who are atheists to help other people who are atheists like me discover Christianity, possibly like me discover Christianity, possibly like me discover Christianity, possibly helped a little bit by C. S. Lewis. helped a little bit by C. S. Lewis. helped a little bit by C. S. Lewis. >> Now here's a quote from your recent >> Now here's a quote from your recent >> Now here's a quote from your recent presentation. I'd love for you to expand presentation. I'd love for you to expand presentation. I'd love for you to expand on it. Uh Christianity is about aligning on it. Uh Christianity is about aligning on it. Uh Christianity is about aligning ourselves with the deep truths of our ourselves with the deep truths of our ourselves with the deep truths of our universe. Um in other words, universe. Um in other words, universe. Um in other words, Christianity is compelling to us because Christianity is compelling to us because Christianity is compelling to us because it's true because it makes sense of it's true because it makes sense of it's true because it makes sense of everything else. You've already just everything else. You've already just everything else. You've already just alluded to that to to Lewis. How would alluded to that to to Lewis. How would alluded to that to to Lewis. How would you expand on that? How have you built you expand on that? How have you built you expand on that? How have you built on that reflection as you've expanded in on that reflection as you've expanded in on that reflection as you've expanded in so many different ways in in terms of so many different ways in in terms of so many different ways in in terms of your writing and speaking and teaching your writing and speaking and teaching your writing and speaking and teaching career?

career? career? >> Yeah, I like that question a lot. I >> Yeah, I like that question a lot. I >> Yeah, I like that question a lot. I think first thing to say is we think first thing to say is we think first thing to say is we we we aren't making this stuff up. You we we aren't making this stuff up. You we we aren't making this stuff up. You know, this is not in effect saying, oh know, this is not in effect saying, oh know, this is not in effect saying, oh oh I would feel so much better if there oh I would feel so much better if there oh I would feel so much better if there was a God. Oh oh oh I like the idea of was a God. Oh oh oh I like the idea of was a God. Oh oh oh I like the idea of God. No no no. It's much more if this is God. No no no. It's much more if this is God. No no no. It's much more if this is the way things are, then we align the way things are, then we align the way things are, then we align ourselves with the way the universe ourselves with the way the universe ourselves with the way the universe really is. That's what all about faith. really is. That's what all about faith. really is. That's what all about faith. It's discerning that there is this deep It's discerning that there is this deep It's discerning that there is this deep structure. There is this God that we can structure. There is this God that we can structure. There is this God that we can in effect be step into that picture and in effect be step into that picture and in effect be step into that picture and make it our own. So it's truthfulness. make it our own. So it's truthfulness. make it our own. So it's truthfulness. It's about responding to the way things It's about responding to the way things It's about responding to the way things are. And then having responded to begin are. And then having responded to begin are. And then having responded to begin to explore and inhabit this rich to explore and inhabit this rich to explore and inhabit this rich landscape that Christianity opens up landscape that Christianity opens up landscape that Christianity opens up partly because it helps us find out who partly because it helps us find out who partly because it helps us find out who we are and what we meant to be doing, we are and what we meant to be doing, we are and what we meant to be doing, but also I think because it really but also I think because it really but also I think because it really enables us to think how might I help enables us to think how might I help enables us to think how might I help other people discover this landscape and other people discover this landscape and other people discover this landscape and step into it as I once did myself. So, step into it as I once did myself. So, step into it as I once did myself. So, if you like, I think I had this sense if you like, I think I had this sense if you like, I think I had this sense that I was going to be an apologist even that I was going to be an apologist even that I was going to be an apologist even before I knew what the word meant.

before I knew what the word meant. before I knew what the word meant. >> I love that. And you also helped to >> I love that. And you also helped to >> I love that. And you also helped to explain there why this new curriculum explain there why this new curriculum explain there why this new curriculum we've done at the Gospel Coalition and we've done at the Gospel Coalition and we've done at the Gospel Coalition and the Keller Center on cultural narratives the Keller Center on cultural narratives the Keller Center on cultural narratives is called Making Sense of Us. is called Making Sense of Us. is called Making Sense of Us. Um Christianity is what makes sense of Um Christianity is what makes sense of Um Christianity is what makes sense of us, uh reveals God, and makes sense of us, uh reveals God, and makes sense of us, uh reveals God, and makes sense of everything else as well. A long-standing everything else as well. A long-standing everything else as well. A long-standing pursuit within within apologetics and pursuit within within apologetics and pursuit within within apologetics and evangelism. Let's jump ahead then to the evangelism. Let's jump ahead then to the evangelism. Let's jump ahead then to the early 2000s. Um early 2000s. Um early 2000s. Um one way that a lot of people got to know one way that a lot of people got to know one way that a lot of people got to know your work then was your engaging and your work then was your engaging and your work then was your engaging and debating the new atheists. debating the new atheists. debating the new atheists. What is it that stands out most to you? What is it that stands out most to you? What is it that stands out most to you? What did you learn during that era of What did you learn during that era of What did you learn during that era of engaging the new atheists? engaging the new atheists? engaging the new atheists? >> Well, I think I learned a lot. Um let me >> Well, I think I learned a lot. Um let me >> Well, I think I learned a lot. Um let me let me just run a few things past you. let me just run a few things past you. let me just run a few things past you. One of the things I I realized very very One of the things I I realized very very One of the things I I realized very very quickly that the new atheism was largely quickly that the new atheism was largely quickly that the new atheism was largely based on rhetoric. This is the obviously based on rhetoric. This is the obviously based on rhetoric. This is the obviously right view for an intelligent person. right view for an intelligent person. right view for an intelligent person. You don't think we're right, so you're You don't think we're right, so you're You don't think we're right, so you're stupid. You know, it was that kind of um stupid. You know, it was that kind of um stupid. You know, it was that kind of um highly rhetorical, slogan-driven highly rhetorical, slogan-driven highly rhetorical, slogan-driven um approach. And I thought this is um approach. And I thought this is um approach. And I thought this is intellectual nonsense, but here's what I intellectual nonsense, but here's what I intellectual nonsense, but here's what I noticed. Yes, it was intellectual noticed. Yes, it was intellectual noticed. Yes, it was intellectual nonsense, but it was influential nonsense, but it was influential nonsense, but it was influential intellectual nonsense because of the intellectual nonsense because of the intellectual nonsense because of the stridency, the certainty with which they stridency, the certainty with which they stridency, the certainty with which they asserted it. And Christopher Hitchens asserted it. And Christopher Hitchens asserted it. And Christopher Hitchens was very very good at this. And you was very very good at this. And you was very very good at this. And you know, in one of his um books, Aristotle know, in one of his um books, Aristotle know, in one of his um books, Aristotle says, you know, nothing nothing says, you know, nothing nothing says, you know, nothing nothing persuades like certainty. In other persuades like certainty. In other persuades like certainty. In other words, if you project this aura of being words, if you project this aura of being words, if you project this aura of being absolutely certain, people will trust absolutely certain, people will trust absolutely certain, people will trust you. So, that was really very very

you. So, that was really very very you. So, that was really very very important thing to realize for me important thing to realize for me important thing to realize for me because it gave me a way of beginning to because it gave me a way of beginning to because it gave me a way of beginning to challenge this and saying, "Look, you challenge this and saying, "Look, you challenge this and saying, "Look, you have subjective certainty, but there's have subjective certainty, but there's have subjective certainty, but there's no objective certainty in what you're no objective certainty in what you're no objective certainty in what you're saying at all." That was the first saying at all." That was the first saying at all." That was the first thing. thing. thing. The second thing was this, the new The second thing was this, the new The second thing was this, the new atheism was terribly terribly good at atheism was terribly terribly good at atheism was terribly terribly good at demanding that Christians prove that demanding that Christians prove that demanding that Christians prove that their views were right. But there was their views were right. But there was their views were right. But there was this kind of epistemic asymmetry here. this kind of epistemic asymmetry here. this kind of epistemic asymmetry here. When you said, "Well, can you prove your When you said, "Well, can you prove your When you said, "Well, can you prove your views are right?" They would say, "No, views are right?" They would say, "No, views are right?" They would say, "No, no, we don't need to. And we're just no, we don't need to. And we're just no, we don't need to. And we're just right. It's obvious. Any intelligent right. It's obvious. Any intelligent right. It's obvious. Any intelligent person would think that." And so I think person would think that." And so I think person would think that." And so I think that one of the things I began to that one of the things I began to that one of the things I began to realize is that we could play a little realize is that we could play a little realize is that we could play a little game which is called being fair. I'll game which is called being fair. I'll game which is called being fair. I'll try and prove my position, but listen, try and prove my position, but listen, try and prove my position, but listen, you've got to prove yours as well. And you've got to prove yours as well. And you've got to prove yours as well. And that proved to be very very difficult that proved to be very very difficult that proved to be very very difficult for them because of course it can't be for them because of course it can't be for them because of course it can't be done. done. done. So I think that was another thing. But So I think that was another thing. But So I think that was another thing. But here's the third thing I've learned here's the third thing I've learned here's the third thing I've learned which is really over the many years which is really over the many years which is really over the many years since then as I have met more and more since then as I have met more and more since then as I have met more and more people who come to me and say, "Alister, people who come to me and say, "Alister, people who come to me and say, "Alister, I read your book on Dawkins and actually I read your book on Dawkins and actually I read your book on Dawkins and actually it moved me away from new atheism. Thank it moved me away from new atheism. Thank it moved me away from new atheism. Thank you so much." What I see is many many you so much." What I see is many many you so much." What I see is many many people, some of whom now are good people, some of whom now are good people, some of whom now are good friends, who in effect came to faith friends, who in effect came to faith friends, who in effect came to faith through Dawkins by realizing that through Dawkins by realizing that through Dawkins by realizing that Dawkins was talking nonsense. But that Dawkins was talking nonsense. But that Dawkins was talking nonsense. But that Christianity seemed to be saying Christianity seemed to be saying Christianity seemed to be saying something a lot more interesting. So I something a lot more interesting. So I something a lot more interesting. So I think it's very important for us all to think it's very important for us all to think it's very important for us all to say, "Look, when some influential say, "Look, when some influential say, "Look, when some influential cultural opinion begins to develop, cultural opinion begins to develop, cultural opinion begins to develop, let's engage it and show Christianity is let's engage it and show Christianity is let's engage it and show Christianity is able to say something significant in

able to say something significant in able to say something significant in response, but also offer something even response, but also offer something even response, but also offer something even better as an alternative." better as an alternative." better as an alternative." >> Well, Christianity is still here. >> Well, Christianity is still here. >> Well, Christianity is still here. You're still doing your apologetics and You're still doing your apologetics and You're still doing your apologetics and evangelism work, but the new atheist evangelism work, but the new atheist evangelism work, but the new atheist movement has come and it's gone. What movement has come and it's gone. What movement has come and it's gone. What was it about the new atheism that failed was it about the new atheism that failed was it about the new atheism that failed to appeal especially to younger to appeal especially to younger to appeal especially to younger generations? generations? generations? >> Well, I think there was several things. >> Well, I think there was several things. >> Well, I think there was several things. Let Let me list the ones that people Let Let me list the ones that people Let Let me list the ones that people have mentioned to me and I've I've have mentioned to me and I've I've have mentioned to me and I've I've thought some of these, but some of these thought some of these, but some of these thought some of these, but some of these are observations others have made to me. are observations others have made to me. are observations others have made to me. One some is that very very good but One some is that very very good but One some is that very very good but fighting among themselves. I mean, we fighting among themselves. I mean, we fighting among themselves. I mean, we don't think of Christians being very don't think of Christians being very don't think of Christians being very good at that, but actually I'll tell you good at that, but actually I'll tell you good at that, but actually I'll tell you that new atheism is even better. And that new atheism is even better. And that new atheism is even better. And really you have some very significant really you have some very significant really you have some very significant political, cultural, and um political, cultural, and um political, cultural, and um spiritual disagreements within the new spiritual disagreements within the new spiritual disagreements within the new atheism. For example, Sam Harris is into atheism. For example, Sam Harris is into atheism. For example, Sam Harris is into um Indian spirituality. And many of his um Indian spirituality. And many of his um Indian spirituality. And many of his fellow atheism atheists were saying, fellow atheism atheists were saying, fellow atheism atheists were saying, "This is this is terrible. You are "This is this is terrible. You are "This is this is terrible. You are implying that atheism isn't good enough. implying that atheism isn't good enough. implying that atheism isn't good enough. You have to something else to meet these You have to something else to meet these You have to something else to meet these spiritual needs. Why do you have spiritual needs. Why do you have spiritual needs. Why do you have spiritual need? It's weird." So, I think spiritual need? It's weird." So, I think spiritual need? It's weird." So, I think that the first of all is this that the first of all is this that the first of all is this fragmentation of the movement. Secondly, fragmentation of the movement. Secondly, fragmentation of the movement. Secondly, there was this growing realization that there was this growing realization that there was this growing realization that these guys simply could not prove that these guys simply could not prove that these guys simply could not prove that their beliefs were right. And people their beliefs were right. And people their beliefs were right. And people noticed that. I think that was very, noticed that. I think that was very, noticed that. I think that was very, very important.

very important. very important. The third point, which is made by many, The third point, which is made by many, The third point, which is made by many, many new atheists, is if you were many new atheists, is if you were many new atheists, is if you were choosing people to lead a movement, the choosing people to lead a movement, the choosing people to lead a movement, the kind of people you wouldn't want to lead kind of people you wouldn't want to lead kind of people you wouldn't want to lead it would be Richard Dawkins and it would be Richard Dawkins and it would be Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. In effect, these Christopher Hitchens. In effect, these Christopher Hitchens. In effect, these guys had their own agendas, and in many guys had their own agendas, and in many guys had their own agendas, and in many ways the movement simply became their ways the movement simply became their ways the movement simply became their their reflection. And that I think was a their reflection. And that I think was a their reflection. And that I think was a very, very bad mistake. But I think most very, very bad mistake. But I think most very, very bad mistake. But I think most people who come out of the new atheism people who come out of the new atheism people who come out of the new atheism are saying, "We were in there for a are saying, "We were in there for a are saying, "We were in there for a while, but we realized it was really a while, but we realized it was really a while, but we realized it was really a big mistake." Would say that they were big mistake." Would say that they were big mistake." Would say that they were they were looking for something that was they were looking for something that was they were looking for something that was rationally compelling and also that met rationally compelling and also that met rationally compelling and also that met their deep existential needs. And the their deep existential needs. And the their deep existential needs. And the problem they had with new atheism is, problem they had with new atheism is, problem they had with new atheism is, well, it's this is right. So, what? What well, it's this is right. So, what? What well, it's this is right. So, what? What difference does it make to the way you difference does it make to the way you difference does it make to the way you feel about the world, to your views feel about the world, to your views feel about the world, to your views about morality? Um and really, if I can about morality? Um and really, if I can about morality? Um and really, if I can put it like this, the new atheism put it like this, the new atheism put it like this, the new atheism delivered a worldview which was, in delivered a worldview which was, in delivered a worldview which was, in their view, completely rational. But it their view, completely rational. But it their view, completely rational. But it could not meaningfully engage questions could not meaningfully engage questions could not meaningfully engage questions like like like what is good? What is meaningful? And I what is good? What is meaningful? And I what is good? What is meaningful? And I think many people said, "Well, look, think many people said, "Well, look, think many people said, "Well, look, these are big questions. If you can't these are big questions. If you can't these are big questions. If you can't answer them, we'll go somewhere else and answer them, we'll go somewhere else and answer them, we'll go somewhere else and talk to other people."

talk to other people." talk to other people." >> Let's bridge between that point of your >> Let's bridge between that point of your >> Let's bridge between that point of your conversion into the new atheism in conversion into the new atheism in conversion into the new atheism in decades of apologetics ministry and work decades of apologetics ministry and work decades of apologetics ministry and work and teaching and writing. and teaching and writing. and teaching and writing. Would you identify as the biggest ways Would you identify as the biggest ways Would you identify as the biggest ways apologetics has changed? apologetics has changed? apologetics has changed? >> Well, I think what has changed to me um >> Well, I think what has changed to me um >> Well, I think what has changed to me um most significantly I think is that we've most significantly I think is that we've most significantly I think is that we've moved away from what I might unfairly moved away from what I might unfairly moved away from what I might unfairly call kind of hyper-rationalist approach. call kind of hyper-rationalist approach. call kind of hyper-rationalist approach. You know, you prove things are true to a You know, you prove things are true to a You know, you prove things are true to a realization that everything in life that realization that everything in life that realization that everything in life that you you you really value, belief in God for example, really value, belief in God for example, really value, belief in God for example, is not something you can absolutely is not something you can absolutely is not something you can absolutely prove to be true but is nonetheless prove to be true but is nonetheless prove to be true but is nonetheless absolutely transformative. And the point absolutely transformative. And the point absolutely transformative. And the point I always make now is look, if the belief I always make now is look, if the belief I always make now is look, if the belief matters, you won't be able to prove it's matters, you won't be able to prove it's matters, you won't be able to prove it's true. And that's true of atheists as true. And that's true of atheists as true. And that's true of atheists as well. That's a key thing. Once Once you well. That's a key thing. Once Once you well. That's a key thing. Once Once you see this, then atheism is a belief see this, then atheism is a belief see this, then atheism is a belief system, it's a faith, it's not a system, it's a faith, it's not a system, it's a faith, it's not a self-evidently true place. So, I think self-evidently true place. So, I think self-evidently true place. So, I think if you like, I'm a scientist, so this if you like, I'm a scientist, so this if you like, I'm a scientist, so this this is a very natural way for me to this is a very natural way for me to this is a very natural way for me to think. It's about which of the many think. It's about which of the many think. It's about which of the many explanations of our world is the best.

explanations of our world is the best. explanations of our world is the best. And Christianity stands out brilliantly And Christianity stands out brilliantly And Christianity stands out brilliantly in that way. Um C.S. Lewis in that way. Um C.S. Lewis in that way. Um C.S. Lewis does this very very well in Mere does this very very well in Mere does this very very well in Mere Christianity, especially that chapter on Christianity, especially that chapter on Christianity, especially that chapter on hope. He says, "Look, there are lots of hope. He says, "Look, there are lots of hope. He says, "Look, there are lots of ways of explaining things but I think ways of explaining things but I think ways of explaining things but I think this one's best and here's why." So, if this one's best and here's why." So, if this one's best and here's why." So, if you like, you like, you like, Christians are being very realistic. We Christians are being very realistic. We Christians are being very realistic. We can't absolutely prove this. We can give can't absolutely prove this. We can give can't absolutely prove this. We can give lots of good reasons. But in the end the lots of good reasons. But in the end the lots of good reasons. But in the end the guy who convinces people is me. It's the guy who convinces people is me. It's the guy who convinces people is me. It's the Holy Spirit. And my role as an apologist Holy Spirit. And my role as an apologist Holy Spirit. And my role as an apologist is to help is to help is to help God convert people. I have a role to God convert people. I have a role to God convert people. I have a role to play but God has an even more important play but God has an even more important play but God has an even more important role to play, which is opening people's role to play, which is opening people's role to play, which is opening people's minds, enlightening them, changing their minds, enlightening them, changing their minds, enlightening them, changing their hearts, and finally bringing them home. hearts, and finally bringing them home. hearts, and finally bringing them home. So, as apologists we're playing a really So, as apologists we're playing a really So, as apologists we're playing a really important role but actually God's in important role but actually God's in important role but actually God's in there as well. I think that brings me to there as well. I think that brings me to there as well. I think that brings me to the final point I want to make, which is the final point I want to make, which is the final point I want to make, which is that um certainly, you know, about 20, that um certainly, you know, about 20, that um certainly, you know, about 20, 25 years ago, apologetics was taught as 25 years ago, apologetics was taught as 25 years ago, apologetics was taught as a technique. Here is how you do things. a technique. Here is how you do things. a technique. Here is how you do things. I didn't like that really, because um I didn't like that really, because um I didn't like that really, because um where's God in all of this? You know, I where's God in all of this? You know, I where's God in all of this? You know, I I just felt that really you had to be I just felt that really you had to be I just felt that really you had to be open to God in every respect. And so, I open to God in every respect. And so, I open to God in every respect. And so, I tend to see apologetics now as me doing tend to see apologetics now as me doing tend to see apologetics now as me doing my bit, doing my best, but then handing my bit, doing my best, but then handing my bit, doing my best, but then handing over to God. And that means you pray over to God. And that means you pray over to God. And that means you pray before you give your talks, and you before you give your talks, and you before you give your talks, and you realize you can't do everything, but realize you can't do everything, but realize you can't do everything, but nevertheless, you're giving God the nevertheless, you're giving God the nevertheless, you're giving God the brakes. You're in effect opening brakes. You're in effect opening brakes. You're in effect opening people's minds. And there's an analogy people's minds. And there's an analogy people's minds. And there's an analogy by a a a 12th-century theologian called by a a a 12th-century theologian called by a a a 12th-century theologian called Alan of Lille, who's talking about the Alan of Lille, who's talking about the Alan of Lille, who's talking about the way grace works. And he says, "It's like

way grace works. And he says, "It's like way grace works. And he says, "It's like being inside a room where there are being inside a room where there are being inside a room where there are shutters everywhere. And if you open the shutters everywhere. And if you open the shutters everywhere. And if you open the shutters, the light floods in. shutters, the light floods in. shutters, the light floods in. What you're doing is removing barriers What you're doing is removing barriers What you're doing is removing barriers to light. I I find that helpful. The to light. I I find that helpful. The to light. I I find that helpful. The apologist you helps remove barriers to apologist you helps remove barriers to apologist you helps remove barriers to grace. So, in effect, God can get in grace. So, in effect, God can get in grace. So, in effect, God can get in there and transform people's lives, but there and transform people's lives, but there and transform people's lives, but there are things we can do that help there are things we can do that help there are things we can do that help that process." that process." that process." >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, during the rise of the new atheists, during the rise of the new atheists, during the rise of the new atheists, there was another apologist who emerged, there was another apologist who emerged, there was another apologist who emerged, and that's somebody you and I have have and that's somebody you and I have have and that's somebody you and I have have collaborated with or talked about quite collaborated with or talked about quite collaborated with or talked about quite a bit, and that's Tim Keller. Uh what a bit, and that's Tim Keller. Uh what a bit, and that's Tim Keller. Uh what was it about Tim Keller that helped him was it about Tim Keller that helped him was it about Tim Keller that helped him to stand out among apologists from that to stand out among apologists from that to stand out among apologists from that era, especially in the 21st century? era, especially in the 21st century? era, especially in the 21st century? >> Well, I think that there are many >> Well, I think that there are many >> Well, I think that there are many things. I'll I'll go through what I things. I'll I'll go through what I things. I'll I'll go through what I think are the chief things about Tim think are the chief things about Tim think are the chief things about Tim Keller that made him I don't say so Keller that made him I don't say so Keller that made him I don't say so successful, because that that implies successful, because that that implies successful, because that that implies he's kind of technique-driven, but but he's kind of technique-driven, but but he's kind of technique-driven, but but made him so good at doing this role. made him so good at doing this role. made him so good at doing this role. And here's what I think. First of all, And here's what I think. First of all, And here's what I think. First of all, he had a very strong foundation on which he had a very strong foundation on which he had a very strong foundation on which he built. He built on a rigorous he built. He built on a rigorous he built. He built on a rigorous biblical anthropology. He's you know, biblical anthropology. He's you know, biblical anthropology. He's you know, he's absolutely orthodox.

he's absolutely orthodox. he's absolutely orthodox. But he also draws on a very strong But he also draws on a very strong But he also draws on a very strong tradition of apologetics which you find tradition of apologetics which you find tradition of apologetics which you find in Francis Schaeffer, which is in effect in Francis Schaeffer, which is in effect in Francis Schaeffer, which is in effect critiquing alternative worldviews. If critiquing alternative worldviews. If critiquing alternative worldviews. If you like, it's presuppositionalism, but you like, it's presuppositionalism, but you like, it's presuppositionalism, but Keller uses it very very powerfully to Keller uses it very very powerfully to Keller uses it very very powerfully to undermine the plausibility of undermine the plausibility of undermine the plausibility of alternative ways of thinking. And I alternative ways of thinking. And I alternative ways of thinking. And I think the one thing that Keller does think the one thing that Keller does think the one thing that Keller does terribly terribly well is in effect to terribly terribly well is in effect to terribly terribly well is in effect to undermine secularist worldviews and undermine secularist worldviews and undermine secularist worldviews and leave people wondering, well, where do I leave people wondering, well, where do I leave people wondering, well, where do I go now because you've shown me that I've go now because you've shown me that I've go now because you've shown me that I've got some big problems with what I think. got some big problems with what I think. got some big problems with what I think. And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that Keller Keller does very very well is to Keller Keller does very very well is to Keller Keller does very very well is to draw on some more recent writings by draw on some more recent writings by draw on some more recent writings by people like the philosopher Alister people like the philosopher Alister people like the philosopher Alister McIntyre or indeed Charles Taylor, who McIntyre or indeed Charles Taylor, who McIntyre or indeed Charles Taylor, who are giving some very penetrating are giving some very penetrating are giving some very penetrating analyses of why it is that culture analyses of why it is that culture analyses of why it is that culture fastens on to certain ideas and see that fastens on to certain ideas and see that fastens on to certain ideas and see that says these seem to be great, these seem says these seem to be great, these seem says these seem to be great, these seem to be obvious, these seem to be to be obvious, these seem to be to be obvious, these seem to be self-evidently true, but in fact, self-evidently true, but in fact, self-evidently true, but in fact, they're simply influential opinions. And they're simply influential opinions. And they're simply influential opinions. And I think that McIntyre and Taylor in I think that McIntyre and Taylor in I think that McIntyre and Taylor in their different ways really help us to their different ways really help us to their different ways really help us to realize this. What Tim Keller did was realize this. What Tim Keller did was realize this. What Tim Keller did was really to say, really to say, really to say, building on this foundation, I'm going building on this foundation, I'm going building on this foundation, I'm going to say to my audiences, what you think to say to my audiences, what you think to say to my audiences, what you think is self-evidently true is simply an is self-evidently true is simply an is self-evidently true is simply an opinion. It's simply what our culture opinion. It's simply what our culture opinion. It's simply what our culture thinks at the moment. It won't think thinks at the moment. It won't think thinks at the moment. It won't think this tomorrow. And what I'm saying to this tomorrow. And what I'm saying to this tomorrow. And what I'm saying to you is there are alternatives available, you is there are alternatives available, you is there are alternatives available, and I want you to think about them. So,

and I want you to think about them. So, and I want you to think about them. So, I found Keller really very very good at I found Keller really very very good at I found Keller really very very good at in effect, without drawing attention to in effect, without drawing attention to in effect, without drawing attention to it really, it really, it really, building his approach on a rigorous building his approach on a rigorous building his approach on a rigorous intellectual cultural analysis, which intellectual cultural analysis, which intellectual cultural analysis, which allowed him then to really speak allowed him then to really speak allowed him then to really speak powerfully to audiences. powerfully to audiences. powerfully to audiences. But here's the next thing I noticed But here's the next thing I noticed But here's the next thing I noticed about Tim Keller, and I I really valued about Tim Keller, and I I really valued about Tim Keller, and I I really valued this. At Redeemer, Keller would this. At Redeemer, Keller would this. At Redeemer, Keller would regularly talk about regularly talk about regularly talk about the gospel to kind of focus groups and the gospel to kind of focus groups and the gospel to kind of focus groups and would listen to what they said. He would listen to what they said. He would listen to what they said. He listened before he spoke. And that's one listened before he spoke. And that's one listened before he spoke. And that's one of the reasons why I value him so much. of the reasons why I value him so much. of the reasons why I value him so much. He isn't just He isn't just He isn't just randomly generating ideas. He's listened randomly generating ideas. He's listened randomly generating ideas. He's listened to people, he's listened to their to people, he's listened to their to people, he's listened to their concerns, he's figured out how to engage concerns, he's figured out how to engage concerns, he's figured out how to engage these. And the fact that he has listened these. And the fact that he has listened these. And the fact that he has listened to his audience before he goes on to to to his audience before he goes on to to to his audience before he goes on to to speak, so to speak, really means he is speak, so to speak, really means he is speak, so to speak, really means he is connecting with where they are and connecting with where they are and connecting with where they are and helping them to move on. And finally, helping them to move on. And finally, helping them to move on. And finally, and this is my final point, he does and this is my final point, he does and this is my final point, he does speak very well. He's he's a good speak very well. He's he's a good speak very well. He's he's a good speaker. So, you know, you put all of speaker. So, you know, you put all of speaker. So, you know, you put all of those things together and and you have a those things together and and you have a those things together and and you have a very very effective apologist for whom I very very effective apologist for whom I very very effective apologist for whom I have lots of admiration, as I think have lots of admiration, as I think have lots of admiration, as I think you'll have gathered.

you'll have gathered. you'll have gathered. >> I think Alister knows surprise here. I >> I think Alister knows surprise here. I >> I think Alister knows surprise here. I think you did a better job of explaining think you did a better job of explaining think you did a better job of explaining cultural apologetics than I do as the cultural apologetics than I do as the cultural apologetics than I do as the director of the Keller Center for director of the Keller Center for director of the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. But, I love the way you're putting it But, I love the way you're putting it But, I love the way you're putting it within that broader context of within that broader context of within that broader context of Schaeffer, of presuppositionalism, Schaeffer, of presuppositionalism, Schaeffer, of presuppositionalism, and then combining it with some of the and then combining it with some of the and then combining it with some of the more recent intellectual developments at more recent intellectual developments at more recent intellectual developments at at kind of high critical theory at kind of high critical theory at kind of high critical theory of cultural change, especially amid a a of cultural change, especially amid a a of cultural change, especially amid a a significant de-churching across the significant de-churching across the significant de-churching across the West, and especially in in the United West, and especially in in the United West, and especially in in the United States last 25 years. You mix up all of States last 25 years. You mix up all of States last 25 years. You mix up all of that and you get a pretty good example that and you get a pretty good example that and you get a pretty good example of what we're trying to do at the Keller of what we're trying to do at the Keller of what we're trying to do at the Keller Center now and going forward. Center now and going forward. Center now and going forward. One of the things at the Keller Center One of the things at the Keller Center One of the things at the Keller Center that we try to do, one of the things that we try to do, one of the things that we try to do, one of the things where you and I connected here at Beeson where you and I connected here at Beeson where you and I connected here at Beeson was trying to help integrate this was trying to help integrate this was trying to help integrate this apologetics into preaching and teaching apologetics into preaching and teaching apologetics into preaching and teaching in the church. Let's just talk about in the church. Let's just talk about in the church. Let's just talk about preachers specifically here. preachers specifically here. preachers specifically here. What would be a way that preachers can What would be a way that preachers can What would be a way that preachers can grow in their skill as apologists? grow in their skill as apologists? grow in their skill as apologists? >> I think um >> I think um >> I think um the skill we all have to learn, I've had the skill we all have to learn, I've had the skill we all have to learn, I've had to learn this the hard way, cuz I've to learn this the hard way, cuz I've to learn this the hard way, cuz I've made lots of mistakes, made lots of mistakes, made lots of mistakes, is to really find a way of incorporating is to really find a way of incorporating is to really find a way of incorporating apologetic themes into your regular apologetic themes into your regular apologetic themes into your regular preaching. So, it's always part of what preaching. So, it's always part of what preaching. So, it's always part of what you're doing, but you don't actually use you're doing, but you don't actually use you're doing, but you don't actually use the word apologetics, and you don't make the word apologetics, and you don't make the word apologetics, and you don't make it obvious what you're doing. You would it obvious what you're doing. You would it obvious what you're doing. You would be a natural part of what you're doing.

be a natural part of what you're doing. be a natural part of what you're doing. So, you're not saying now something So, you're not saying now something So, you're not saying now something like, um, you know, I'm going to talk like, um, you know, I'm going to talk like, um, you know, I'm going to talk now about apologetics. And and I was now about apologetics. And and I was now about apologetics. And and I was talking to, um, Fred Smith the other talking to, um, Fred Smith the other talking to, um, Fred Smith the other day, and Fred has a big problem. He day, and Fred has a big problem. He day, and Fred has a big problem. He can't really figure out how to get how can't really figure out how to get how can't really figure out how to get how to understand sin. Well, Fred, this is to understand sin. Well, Fred, this is to understand sin. Well, Fred, this is for you and for anybody else and then for you and for anybody else and then for you and for anybody else and then you talk about sin. No, no. you talk about sin. No, no. you talk about sin. No, no. You listen. Do Do exactly what Tim You listen. Do Do exactly what Tim You listen. Do Do exactly what Tim Keller did. You listen to your Keller did. You listen to your Keller did. You listen to your congregation. You figure out the congregation. You figure out the congregation. You figure out the difficulties they're having, and you difficulties they're having, and you difficulties they're having, and you would generalize. You'd say, "Now, I've would generalize. You'd say, "Now, I've would generalize. You'd say, "Now, I've been preaching about redemption. Let's been preaching about redemption. Let's been preaching about redemption. Let's just talk about a problem I know many just talk about a problem I know many just talk about a problem I know many people have with this idea of sin." You people have with this idea of sin." You people have with this idea of sin." You don't mention any names, but you begin don't mention any names, but you begin don't mention any names, but you begin to say, "I find it helpful to think to say, "I find it helpful to think to say, "I find it helpful to think about like this." And you begin to give about like this." And you begin to give about like this." And you begin to give a a good defense of what this idea of a a good defense of what this idea of a a good defense of what this idea of sin is, why it's important, why it's sin is, why it's important, why it's sin is, why it's important, why it's essential. And then you say, "Hey, but essential. And then you say, "Hey, but essential. And then you say, "Hey, but you know the really great thing is, you know the really great thing is, you know the really great thing is, however important sin is, redemption's however important sin is, redemption's however important sin is, redemption's even better. And here's Here's why the even better. And here's Here's why the even better. And here's Here's why the gospel is so significant." So, my My own gospel is so significant." So, my My own gospel is so significant." So, my My own approach is really to say, "Let's just approach is really to say, "Let's just approach is really to say, "Let's just make a sort of understated apologetics, make a sort of understated apologetics, make a sort of understated apologetics, not mentioning the name, not mentioning the name, not mentioning the name, regular part of our preaching." Look, regular part of our preaching." Look, regular part of our preaching." Look, preaching on Easter, you you say preaching on Easter, you you say preaching on Easter, you you say something like, "Look, I know there are something like, "Look, I know there are something like, "Look, I know there are many people Do you know them, too, many people Do you know them, too, many people Do you know them, too, who won't believe in the resurrection?

who won't believe in the resurrection? who won't believe in the resurrection? Here's something we can say to them. Here's something we can say to them. Here's something we can say to them. It's Try this on them." You know, in It's Try this on them." You know, in It's Try this on them." You know, in other words, you're doing apologetics other words, you're doing apologetics other words, you're doing apologetics without actually using the word or without actually using the word or without actually using the word or highlighting that. Trying to normalize highlighting that. Trying to normalize highlighting that. Trying to normalize it as a kind of thing the congregations it as a kind of thing the congregations it as a kind of thing the congregations would do themselves without having to, would do themselves without having to, would do themselves without having to, sorry, press a button and flip into sorry, press a button and flip into sorry, press a button and flip into apologetics mode. So, I think it's If apologetics mode. So, I think it's If apologetics mode. So, I think it's If you like, the thing I think we need to you like, the thing I think we need to you like, the thing I think we need to do is try and normalize apologetics in do is try and normalize apologetics in do is try and normalize apologetics in regular regular regular church preaching. Um, and I think that church preaching. Um, and I think that church preaching. Um, and I think that that will help because you see if if you that will help because you see if if you that will help because you see if if you think about who's doing apologetics, think about who's doing apologetics, think about who's doing apologetics, sure, pastors do it. But actually, in sure, pastors do it. But actually, in sure, pastors do it. But actually, in your congregations, there'll be people your congregations, there'll be people your congregations, there'll be people who can speak to people that's the who can speak to people that's the who can speak to people that's the pastor will never meet. And if you help pastor will never meet. And if you help pastor will never meet. And if you help them to explain the gospel, to meet them to explain the gospel, to meet them to explain the gospel, to meet common objections, you are extending common objections, you are extending common objections, you are extending your ministry enormously to these people your ministry enormously to these people your ministry enormously to these people who will take the ideas you're giving who will take the ideas you're giving who will take the ideas you're giving them and use them themselves. So, there them and use them themselves. So, there them and use them themselves. So, there are lots of ways we can do this. These are lots of ways we can do this. These are lots of ways we can do this. These are just some thoughts I have on how we are just some thoughts I have on how we are just some thoughts I have on how we can move this ahead. can move this ahead. can move this ahead. >> if I could summarize, Alister, see if >> if I could summarize, Alister, see if >> if I could summarize, Alister, see if I'm accurate with this of a couple I'm accurate with this of a couple I'm accurate with this of a couple different ways that you're going here.

different ways that you're going here. different ways that you're going here. Uh one, I was just taking notes on this Uh one, I was just taking notes on this Uh one, I was just taking notes on this and just as you were saying that, and just as you were saying that, and just as you were saying that, there's there's there's there's an encouragement from you not to there's an encouragement from you not to there's an encouragement from you not to over-promise over-promise over-promise in apologetics, an understated approach, in apologetics, an understated approach, in apologetics, an understated approach, and then that combines with a and then that combines with a and then that combines with a uh sort of the the attack on the other uh sort of the the attack on the other uh sort of the the attack on the other side is simply to say side is simply to say side is simply to say that they cannot be as decisive as they that they cannot be as decisive as they that they cannot be as decisive as they would purport to be. So, basically, would purport to be. So, basically, would purport to be. So, basically, there's also leveling of both sides. there's also leveling of both sides. there's also leveling of both sides. You're not trying to over-promise on the You're not trying to over-promise on the You're not trying to over-promise on the Christian side, and you're pointing out Christian side, and you're pointing out Christian side, and you're pointing out that the other side cannot cannot follow that the other side cannot cannot follow that the other side cannot cannot follow through on their convictions to a level through on their convictions to a level through on their convictions to a level of certainty as well. Is that an of certainty as well. Is that an of certainty as well. Is that an accurate description of how you're accurate description of how you're accurate description of how you're trying to approach things rhetorically? trying to approach things rhetorically? trying to approach things rhetorically? >> I think it is. Rhetorically, what I'm >> I think it is. Rhetorically, what I'm >> I think it is. Rhetorically, what I'm trying to say is it's always presented trying to say is it's always presented trying to say is it's always presented as faith versus fact. What I'm saying as faith versus fact. What I'm saying as faith versus fact. What I'm saying is, no, it's this faith versus that is, no, it's this faith versus that is, no, it's this faith versus that faith. Let's line them up and see which faith. Let's line them up and see which faith. Let's line them up and see which one's the better. And one of them one's the better. And one of them one's the better. And one of them certainly is much more realistic. No certainly is much more realistic. No certainly is much more realistic. No prizes for guessing which one that is. prizes for guessing which one that is. prizes for guessing which one that is. >> Right. Um >> Right. Um >> Right. Um give us a little bit of that genealogy give us a little bit of that genealogy give us a little bit of that genealogy intellectually. Um you know, intellectually. Um you know, intellectually. Um you know, we can read a lot of books on this, but we can read a lot of books on this, but we can read a lot of books on this, but not everybody is going to know the not everybody is going to know the not everybody is going to know the intellectual heritage of that faith-fact intellectual heritage of that faith-fact intellectual heritage of that faith-fact distinction. And then I wanted to So, as distinction. And then I wanted to So, as distinction. And then I wanted to So, as you talk about that, though, also help you talk about that, though, also help you talk about that, though, also help to address another common view, just a to address another common view, just a to address another common view, just a common belief. To make this world a common belief. To make this world a common belief. To make this world a better and safer place, we simply need better and safer place, we simply need better and safer place, we simply need to eliminate beliefs such as religious to eliminate beliefs such as religious to eliminate beliefs such as religious faith. So, you know, let's start with faith. So, you know, let's start with faith. So, you know, let's start with the faith fact distinction first and

the faith fact distinction first and the faith fact distinction first and then let's jump to that Taylor then let's jump to that Taylor then let's jump to that Taylor subtraction story of modernity. So let's subtraction story of modernity. So let's subtraction story of modernity. So let's let's start with the faith fact let's start with the faith fact let's start with the faith fact distinction. distinction. distinction. >> This goes back to the enlightenment to >> This goes back to the enlightenment to >> This goes back to the enlightenment to the age of reason when it was very very the age of reason when it was very very the age of reason when it was very very obvious to certain people that there obvious to certain people that there obvious to certain people that there were certain things that were simply were certain things that were simply were certain things that were simply factually correct. Um and these did not factually correct. Um and these did not factually correct. Um and these did not require proving. They were to quote from require proving. They were to quote from require proving. They were to quote from a familiar American document, these were a familiar American document, these were a familiar American document, these were um self-evident truths. So I can put it um self-evident truths. So I can put it um self-evident truths. So I can put it like that. like that. like that. Yeah. And I think that that is really Yeah. And I think that that is really Yeah. And I think that that is really something that really became very very something that really became very very something that really became very very influential. But here's what I would influential. But here's what I would influential. But here's what I would want to say. I would want to say simply want to say. I would want to say simply want to say. I would want to say simply that all of us actually believe. Because that all of us actually believe. Because that all of us actually believe. Because when you start thinking about it, um the when you start thinking about it, um the when you start thinking about it, um the kind of things that we can prove are kind of things that we can prove are kind of things that we can prove are true. For example, two and two make true. For example, two and two make true. For example, two and two make four. Or to give a British example, four. Or to give a British example, four. Or to give a British example, Queen Victoria died in 1901. Queen Victoria died in 1901. Queen Victoria died in 1901. Well, sure you can prove those, but so Well, sure you can prove those, but so Well, sure you can prove those, but so what? They don't make any difference at what? They don't make any difference at what? They don't make any difference at all. all. all. And the key thing I want to say is that And the key thing I want to say is that And the key thing I want to say is that when it comes to the big truths of when it comes to the big truths of when it comes to the big truths of lives, what really matters? Is there a lives, what really matters? Is there a lives, what really matters? Is there a God? And what is the meaning of life?

God? And what is the meaning of life? God? And what is the meaning of life? What How do we live a good life? We're What How do we live a good life? We're What How do we live a good life? We're all on the same level playing field. all on the same level playing field. all on the same level playing field. None of us can prove these things are None of us can prove these things are None of us can prove these things are right. And that's why I think we really right. And that's why I think we really right. And that's why I think we really do need to challenge people when they do need to challenge people when they do need to challenge people when they say, "It's obvious that there's no God." say, "It's obvious that there's no God." say, "It's obvious that there's no God." You can say, "That's really good. You've You can say, "That's really good. You've You can say, "That's really good. You've got 5 minutes. Prove there's no God." got 5 minutes. Prove there's no God." got 5 minutes. Prove there's no God." They can't do it. You say, "Look, I I They can't do it. You say, "Look, I I They can't do it. You say, "Look, I I think what you mean meant to say is I I think what you mean meant to say is I I think what you mean meant to say is I I I really believe very very strongly I really believe very very strongly I really believe very very strongly there's no God, but there's no God, but there's no God, but I'm I'm not sure you can do that." I'm I'm not sure you can do that." I'm I'm not sure you can do that." >> Mhm. And then on the subtraction story >> Mhm. And then on the subtraction story >> Mhm. And then on the subtraction story of modernity, that's also enlightenment. of modernity, that's also enlightenment. of modernity, that's also enlightenment. We can pretty see a pretty clear We can pretty see a pretty clear We can pretty see a pretty clear connection there from Voltaire to connection there from Voltaire to connection there from Voltaire to Nietzsche. That'd be accurate? We can Nietzsche. That'd be accurate? We can Nietzsche. That'd be accurate? We can actually it's going after the goodness actually it's going after the goodness actually it's going after the goodness of Christianity and religion more of Christianity and religion more of Christianity and religion more broadly. broadly. broadly. >> Well, they're going after the goodness >> Well, they're going after the goodness >> Well, they're going after the goodness of religion and particularly of religion and particularly of religion and particularly Christianity. And again, you have to Christianity. And again, you have to Christianity. And again, you have to say, "Look, where are you getting these say, "Look, where are you getting these say, "Look, where are you getting these moral values which by which you judge moral values which by which you judge moral values which by which you judge things from?" You can't just be like things from?" You can't just be like things from?" You can't just be like Christopher Hitchens say religion is Christopher Hitchens say religion is Christopher Hitchens say religion is evil. By the way, I don't believe evil. By the way, I don't believe evil. By the way, I don't believe anything. I just buy into stuff that's anything. I just buy into stuff that's anything. I just buy into stuff that's absolutely obviously true. Because any absolutely obviously true. Because any absolutely obviously true. Because any moral value rests on a belief system.

moral value rests on a belief system. moral value rests on a belief system. And my point is that actually Hitchens And my point is that actually Hitchens And my point is that actually Hitchens is presupposing a belief system in is presupposing a belief system in is presupposing a belief system in making that judgment. So, my point is making that judgment. So, my point is making that judgment. So, my point is again, I'm going to reiterate this. It's again, I'm going to reiterate this. It's again, I'm going to reiterate this. It's not faith versus fact. It's one belief not faith versus fact. It's one belief not faith versus fact. It's one belief system versus a different belief system. system versus a different belief system. system versus a different belief system. It's a level playing field. The argument It's a level playing field. The argument It's a level playing field. The argument is which one has the better rational is which one has the better rational is which one has the better rational case, which one makes more sense, and case, which one makes more sense, and case, which one makes more sense, and what about the outcomes? Because what about the outcomes? Because what about the outcomes? Because Christianity has this remarkable ability Christianity has this remarkable ability Christianity has this remarkable ability to make sense of life and to give us to make sense of life and to give us to make sense of life and to give us this deep sense of purpose and meaning. this deep sense of purpose and meaning. this deep sense of purpose and meaning. >> Would it be accurate to say Alister, not >> Would it be accurate to say Alister, not >> Would it be accurate to say Alister, not even just two belief systems, but two even just two belief systems, but two even just two belief systems, but two versions of Christianity. One, the real versions of Christianity. One, the real versions of Christianity. One, the real thing, the other a secularized thing, the other a secularized thing, the other a secularized Christianity. Because his moral views Christianity. Because his moral views Christianity. Because his moral views are coming from Christianity, right? are coming from Christianity, right? are coming from Christianity, right? >> Well, that's right. Because they can't >> Well, that's right. Because they can't >> Well, that's right. Because they can't prove them. They have to kind of way prove them. They have to kind of way prove them. They have to kind of way borrow them from Christianity and then borrow them from Christianity and then borrow them from Christianity and then claim they were there all along. Whereas claim they were there all along. Whereas claim they were there all along. Whereas in fact, Christian values actually rest in fact, Christian values actually rest in fact, Christian values actually rest on gospel foundations. You can't just on gospel foundations. You can't just on gospel foundations. You can't just assume that people will be able to assume that people will be able to assume that people will be able to sustain these moral values without those sustain these moral values without those sustain these moral values without those underlying presuppositions.

underlying presuppositions. underlying presuppositions. And that's one of the reasons why I And that's one of the reasons why I And that's one of the reasons why I think it's so important to emphasize think it's so important to emphasize think it's so important to emphasize that that the moral values of our that that the moral values of our that that the moral values of our culture don't just happen. They aren't culture don't just happen. They aren't culture don't just happen. They aren't just rational. They come from a long just rational. They come from a long just rational. They come from a long tradition of reflection deeply rooted in tradition of reflection deeply rooted in tradition of reflection deeply rooted in scripture. And if you start removing scripture. And if you start removing scripture. And if you start removing that, you lose this all together. that, you lose this all together. that, you lose this all together. >> Yeah, so really >> Yeah, so really >> Yeah, so really it it it that would also be reflected in the work that would also be reflected in the work that would also be reflected in the work of Glen Scrivener, Air We Breathe, one of Glen Scrivener, Air We Breathe, one of Glen Scrivener, Air We Breathe, one of our fellows at the Keller Center, as of our fellows at the Keller Center, as of our fellows at the Keller Center, as well as then Tom Holland's work in well as then Tom Holland's work in well as then Tom Holland's work in Dominion. Dominion. Dominion. Um Um Um I think this is also what you're getting I think this is also what you're getting I think this is also what you're getting at, but let's just put a finer point on at, but let's just put a finer point on at, but let's just put a finer point on this. Explain the difference between this. Explain the difference between this. Explain the difference between truth and meaning. I assume that's what truth and meaning. I assume that's what truth and meaning. I assume that's what you're saying about Queen Victoria dying you're saying about Queen Victoria dying you're saying about Queen Victoria dying in 1901. That's true, but is it in 1901. That's true, but is it in 1901. That's true, but is it meaningful? meaningful? meaningful? Not in terms of the big questions of Not in terms of the big questions of Not in terms of the big questions of life, right? life, right? life, right? >> I think the big questions >> I think the big questions >> I think the big questions in life really aren't so much truth in life really aren't so much truth in life really aren't so much truth versus falsity. It's very important not versus falsity. It's very important not versus falsity. It's very important not to believe things that are false. to believe things that are false. to believe things that are false. There are awful false worldviews in There are awful false worldviews in There are awful false worldviews in circulation. I mean, to challenge those. circulation. I mean, to challenge those. circulation. I mean, to challenge those. When it comes to truth, I mean, the key When it comes to truth, I mean, the key When it comes to truth, I mean, the key point I want to emphasize this, point I want to emphasize this, point I want to emphasize this, factual factuality factual factuality factual factuality does not equal relevance. That's a does not equal relevance. That's a does not equal relevance. That's a really important point. Because what really important point. Because what really important point. Because what Christianity is doing is not talking Christianity is doing is not talking Christianity is doing is not talking about two and two makes four, it's about two and two makes four, it's about two and two makes four, it's talking about life-changing truths that talking about life-changing truths that talking about life-changing truths that give meaning and dignity and purpose to give meaning and dignity and purpose to give meaning and dignity and purpose to your life, which are transformative.

your life, which are transformative. your life, which are transformative. And those really are deep truths. So, my And those really are deep truths. So, my And those really are deep truths. So, my point is that one things we can do as point is that one things we can do as point is that one things we can do as Christians is not simply say, "Here is Christians is not simply say, "Here is Christians is not simply say, "Here is why I believe in Christianity." But why I believe in Christianity." But why I believe in Christianity." But also, "Here is the difference that it also, "Here is the difference that it also, "Here is the difference that it makes to me." It's a transformative makes to me." It's a transformative makes to me." It's a transformative truth. It's something that in effect truth. It's something that in effect truth. It's something that in effect gives me meaning and purpose. And let me gives me meaning and purpose. And let me gives me meaning and purpose. And let me explain to you how that's happened to explain to you how that's happened to explain to you how that's happened to me. Cuz people will be interested in me. Cuz people will be interested in me. Cuz people will be interested in that. It's moving from simply saying, that. It's moving from simply saying, that. It's moving from simply saying, "This is right." to "And here is why "This is right." to "And here is why "This is right." to "And here is why this is transformative. This is able to this is transformative. This is able to this is transformative. This is able to change my life and make it better." change my life and make it better." change my life and make it better." >> Another quote that you had in the Beason >> Another quote that you had in the Beason >> Another quote that you had in the Beason presentation I really appreciated was presentation I really appreciated was presentation I really appreciated was this, this, this, "Bleakness is not an indicator of "Bleakness is not an indicator of "Bleakness is not an indicator of truth." truth." truth." >> No, that's >> No, that's >> No, that's >> Well, tell us a little bit more about >> Well, tell us a little bit more about >> Well, tell us a little bit more about that. that. that. >> Well, you see, when I was an atheist >> Well, you see, when I was an atheist >> Well, you see, when I was an atheist myself when I was 16 years old, um myself when I was 16 years old, um myself when I was 16 years old, um I thought you know, this is this is I thought you know, this is this is I thought you know, this is this is actually terribly terribly dark and actually terribly terribly dark and actually terribly terribly dark and bleak and grim and and horrible. bleak and grim and and horrible. bleak and grim and and horrible. But hey, it's true. So, therefore, I'm But hey, it's true. So, therefore, I'm But hey, it's true. So, therefore, I'm glad it's bleak because no one's going glad it's bleak because no one's going glad it's bleak because no one's going to believe in this stuff because they to believe in this stuff because they to believe in this stuff because they like it. The only reason they're going like it. The only reason they're going like it. The only reason they're going to believe it is because it's true. So, to believe it is because it's true. So, to believe it is because it's true. So, there, if you like, I was almost saying there, if you like, I was almost saying there, if you like, I was almost saying that if if it's bleak and discouraging, that if if it's bleak and discouraging, that if if it's bleak and discouraging, that's great.

that's great. that's great. I mean it was weird, but what I was I mean it was weird, but what I was I mean it was weird, but what I was trying to do was to say to myself, trying to do was to say to myself, trying to do was to say to myself, "Look, I know this "Look, I know this "Look, I know this atheism atheism atheism is not good news at all, but hey, that is not good news at all, but hey, that is not good news at all, but hey, that that is good news in one sense cuz it that is good news in one sense cuz it that is good news in one sense cuz it means you don't make this stuff up. You means you don't make this stuff up. You means you don't make this stuff up. You don't want to believe this stuff. don't want to believe this stuff. don't want to believe this stuff. Therefore, you believe it because it's Therefore, you believe it because it's Therefore, you believe it because it's true." Now, built into that is just a true." Now, built into that is just a true." Now, built into that is just a load of circularity and stupidity, but load of circularity and stupidity, but load of circularity and stupidity, but that's the way I was when I was 16. that's the way I was when I was 16. that's the way I was when I was 16. >> But also arrogance, right? >> But also arrogance, right? >> But also arrogance, right? >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> In the sense that I alone or I and my >> In the sense that I alone or I and my >> In the sense that I alone or I and my merry band are the only people who are merry band are the only people who are merry band are the only people who are able to confront the bleak reality of able to confront the bleak reality of able to confront the bleak reality of the universe. Only we are mature enough the universe. Only we are mature enough the universe. Only we are mature enough and intellectual enough and smart enough and intellectual enough and smart enough and intellectual enough and smart enough to be able to confront real reality to be able to confront real reality to be able to confront real reality instead of living with all these instead of living with all these instead of living with all these fantasies and looking forward to this fantasies and looking forward to this fantasies and looking forward to this future fantasy land. Is that part of it, future fantasy land. Is that part of it, future fantasy land. Is that part of it, too? too? too? >> That's part of it, too. It's like you're >> That's part of it, too. It's like you're >> That's part of it, too. It's like you're kind of an ego trip, you know. I would kind of an ego trip, you know. I would kind of an ego trip, you know. I would look down at my religious friends and look down at my religious friends and look down at my religious friends and say, "Ha ha ha. say, "Ha ha ha. say, "Ha ha ha. They haven't thought about these things. They haven't thought about these things. They haven't thought about these things. They're fools. They're idiots. They're They're fools. They're idiots. They're They're fools. They're idiots. They're living in an age of superstition." I living in an age of superstition." I living in an age of superstition." I know where that I myself was living in a know where that I myself was living in a know where that I myself was living in a a different age of superstition. It's a different age of superstition. It's a different age of superstition. It's just that my superstition was atheism, just that my superstition was atheism, just that my superstition was atheism, which I couldn't prove to be true.

which I couldn't prove to be true. which I couldn't prove to be true. >> Okay, so the the last part of this >> Okay, so the the last part of this >> Okay, so the the last part of this interview, talking here with Alister interview, talking here with Alister interview, talking here with Alister McGrath, um just fascinating. Could McGrath, um just fascinating. Could McGrath, um just fascinating. Could listen and and talk with you for for listen and and talk with you for for listen and and talk with you for for hours and hours, but for last three hours and hours, but for last three hours and hours, but for last three questions, um I want to just turn to C. questions, um I want to just turn to C. questions, um I want to just turn to C. S. Lewis. And again, since you and I S. Lewis. And again, since you and I S. Lewis. And again, since you and I last talked and when we first talked, last talked and when we first talked, last talked and when we first talked, you just sent me on a whole new you just sent me on a whole new you just sent me on a whole new intellectual journey that I have so much intellectual journey that I have so much intellectual journey that I have so much gratefulness to you for. gratefulness to you for. gratefulness to you for. Um did not see it coming at all, and Um did not see it coming at all, and Um did not see it coming at all, and then like like a flash, just sitting then like like a flash, just sitting then like like a flash, just sitting there listening to all these interesting there listening to all these interesting there listening to all these interesting thoughts were coming together and I've thoughts were coming together and I've thoughts were coming together and I've been working on them ever since for uh been working on them ever since for uh been working on them ever since for uh for a couple years since. And what I've for a couple years since. And what I've for a couple years since. And what I've noticed about noticed about noticed about Lewis, and as you were talking about Lewis, and as you were talking about Lewis, and as you were talking about Lewis, and you were talking about the Lewis, and you were talking about the Lewis, and you were talking about the Second World War, and I was thinking Second World War, and I was thinking Second World War, and I was thinking about Churchill, about Churchill, about Churchill, I thought, a lot of times we think of I thought, a lot of times we think of I thought, a lot of times we think of Churchill as purely a historical figure. Churchill as purely a historical figure. Churchill as purely a historical figure. He's always in black and white. Whereas He's always in black and white. Whereas He's always in black and white. Whereas in an odd way, we always think of Lewis in an odd way, we always think of Lewis in an odd way, we always think of Lewis as a contemporary figure because his as a contemporary figure because his as a contemporary figure because his writing still is so vivacious, it's writing still is so vivacious, it's writing still is so vivacious, it's still so relevant, his insights are still so relevant, his insights are still so relevant, his insights are still so so penetrating. And so, a lot still so so penetrating. And so, a lot still so so penetrating. And so, a lot of what I've been trying to do is to of what I've been trying to do is to of what I've been trying to do is to help illustrate how so many of help illustrate how so many of help illustrate how so many of Churchill's perspectives on civilization Churchill's perspectives on civilization Churchill's perspectives on civilization are relevant for the big questions that are relevant for the big questions that are relevant for the big questions that we're facing today, and also of how much we're facing today, and also of how much we're facing today, and also of how much of Lewis's views are rooted in the of Lewis's views are rooted in the of Lewis's views are rooted in the concerns of his time. Not in a way that concerns of his time. Not in a way that concerns of his time. Not in a way that makes them time-bound, but ways that makes them time-bound, but ways that makes them time-bound, but ways that they remain remain timeless.

they remain remain timeless. they remain remain timeless. Um now, of course, I think if anybody Um now, of course, I think if anybody Um now, of course, I think if anybody knows about Lewis's context as a as an knows about Lewis's context as a as an knows about Lewis's context as a as an apologist, they're going to know about apologist, they're going to know about apologist, they're going to know about Mere Christianity and the BBC broadcasts Mere Christianity and the BBC broadcasts Mere Christianity and the BBC broadcasts during during the war. Um I'm wondering during during the war. Um I'm wondering during during the war. Um I'm wondering about this especially as as you sit in about this especially as as you sit in about this especially as as you sit in in Oxford, and famously Oxford was not in Oxford, and famously Oxford was not in Oxford, and famously Oxford was not targeted for bombing, supposedly, targeted for bombing, supposedly, targeted for bombing, supposedly, because Hitler wanted Oxford to be his because Hitler wanted Oxford to be his because Hitler wanted Oxford to be his British his British capital. So, Lewis British his British capital. So, Lewis British his British capital. So, Lewis didn't experience in the same ways that didn't experience in the same ways that didn't experience in the same ways that when he traveled to London, different when he traveled to London, different when he traveled to London, different story for those BBC broadcasts. But what story for those BBC broadcasts. But what story for those BBC broadcasts. But what was it about the circumstances, was it about the circumstances, was it about the circumstances, especially in those early years, '40 and especially in those early years, '40 and especially in those early years, '40 and '41 in particular, so Problem of Pain, '41 in particular, so Problem of Pain, '41 in particular, so Problem of Pain, of course, of course, of course, comes out then, and then you So, comes out then, and then you So, comes out then, and then you So, beginning of his apologetic career uh beginning of his apologetic career uh beginning of his apologetic career uh publicly, which then leads to Mere publicly, which then leads to Mere publicly, which then leads to Mere Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. What difference did that setting make? What difference did that setting make? What difference did that setting make? Did it sharpen his apologetics? Did it Did it sharpen his apologetics? Did it Did it sharpen his apologetics? Did it focus them? Did it draw something out focus them? Did it draw something out focus them? Did it draw something out that brought our context, and I'll stop that brought our context, and I'll stop that brought our context, and I'll stop rambling after one more point here. rambling after one more point here. rambling after one more point here. What strikes me as so salient about What strikes me as so salient about What strikes me as so salient about these two men in that context is that these two men in that context is that these two men in that context is that especially in 1940 and '41, especially especially in 1940 and '41, especially especially in 1940 and '41, especially in the months before Barbarossa, the in the months before Barbarossa, the in the months before Barbarossa, the attack on the Soviet Union, and then attack on the Soviet Union, and then attack on the Soviet Union, and then Pearl Harbor, the attack um on the Pearl Harbor, the attack um on the Pearl Harbor, the attack um on the United States, United States, United States, they didn't have a lot of reason to they didn't have a lot of reason to they didn't have a lot of reason to think that what they were advocating think that what they were advocating think that what they were advocating would be successful.

would be successful. would be successful. Not politically, not culturally. You had Not politically, not culturally. You had Not politically, not culturally. You had fascism, you had communism. fascism, you had communism. fascism, you had communism. Britain was on its own. Britain was on its own. Britain was on its own. It was a tough situation. So, shed a It was a tough situation. So, shed a It was a tough situation. So, shed a little bit of light specifically on Mere little bit of light specifically on Mere little bit of light specifically on Mere Christianity, the development of of Christianity, the development of of Christianity, the development of of those works, how they affected Lewis, those works, how they affected Lewis, those works, how they affected Lewis, and why they seemed to land a certain and why they seemed to land a certain and why they seemed to land a certain way at that time on the British public. way at that time on the British public. way at that time on the British public. >> Well, I think that's a great question. >> Well, I think that's a great question. >> Well, I think that's a great question. And you mentioned The Problem of Pain. And you mentioned The Problem of Pain. And you mentioned The Problem of Pain. And I that's a that's a a jumping-off And I that's a that's a a jumping-off And I that's a that's a a jumping-off point for Lewis, because point for Lewis, because point for Lewis, because Lewis didn't decide to write that book. Lewis didn't decide to write that book. Lewis didn't decide to write that book. He was asked to write it by a man called He was asked to write it by a man called He was asked to write it by a man called Ashley Sampson, who in effect Lewis Ashley Sampson, who in effect Lewis Ashley Sampson, who in effect Lewis might be a very intelligent lay voice might be a very intelligent lay voice might be a very intelligent lay voice who could articulately talk about the who could articulately talk about the who could articulately talk about the problem of pain to a wider readership. problem of pain to a wider readership. problem of pain to a wider readership. I think Lewis really saw that as a I think Lewis really saw that as a I think Lewis really saw that as a validation of his growing perception he validation of his growing perception he validation of his growing perception he was going to be an apologist. It was an was going to be an apologist. It was an was going to be an apologist. It was an external recognition of what I think had external recognition of what I think had external recognition of what I think had been a growing a growing internal been a growing a growing internal been a growing a growing internal realization on Lewis's part, but was it realization on Lewis's part, but was it realization on Lewis's part, but was it simply him thinking that? When somebody simply him thinking that? When somebody simply him thinking that? When somebody outside him said, "This is what you outside him said, "This is what you outside him said, "This is what you could do." He did it, did very well. And could do." He did it, did very well. And could do." He did it, did very well. And as you rightly point out, the BBC read as you rightly point out, the BBC read as you rightly point out, the BBC read that book and thought, "We we want this that book and thought, "We we want this that book and thought, "We we want this man."

man." man." And I think one of the things that is And I think one of the things that is And I think one of the things that is really interesting, you talked about the really interesting, you talked about the really interesting, you talked about the comparison of Churchill, which is really comparison of Churchill, which is really comparison of Churchill, which is really helpful here, helpful here, helpful here, is that both Churchill and Lewis found is that both Churchill and Lewis found is that both Churchill and Lewis found their voice during the Second World War. their voice during the Second World War. their voice during the Second World War. They learned to speak to the British They learned to speak to the British They learned to speak to the British people in a time of need. Churchill very people in a time of need. Churchill very people in a time of need. Churchill very very good at dealing with the political very good at dealing with the political very good at dealing with the political and military situation, but Lewis also and military situation, but Lewis also and military situation, but Lewis also of trying to open up those deeper of trying to open up those deeper of trying to open up those deeper questions about sin, about the fear of questions about sin, about the fear of questions about sin, about the fear of death, about the lack of hope, and death, about the lack of hope, and death, about the lack of hope, and beginning to to beginning to to beginning to to to build a connection with the British to build a connection with the British to build a connection with the British people through his broadcasts, which people through his broadcasts, which people through his broadcasts, which were clearly very successful, because were clearly very successful, because were clearly very successful, because BBC kept asking him to to do more and BBC kept asking him to to do more and BBC kept asking him to to do more and more of these. So, if you like the the more of these. So, if you like the the more of these. So, if you like the the are mega the man, but actually this was are mega the man, but actually this was are mega the man, but actually this was very much Lewis rising to a challenge very much Lewis rising to a challenge very much Lewis rising to a challenge very very successfully and learning I very very successfully and learning I very very successfully and learning I think enormously from it with the result think enormously from it with the result think enormously from it with the result that Lewis no longer seems like a period that Lewis no longer seems like a period that Lewis no longer seems like a period figure of the 1940s. He seems to just figure of the 1940s. He seems to just figure of the 1940s. He seems to just have a almost like a perennial quality. have a almost like a perennial quality. have a almost like a perennial quality. You read him and he speaks to you right You read him and he speaks to you right You read him and he speaks to you right now.

now. now. >> How did How did Lewis's conversion >> How did How did Lewis's conversion >> How did How did Lewis's conversion affect his academic career? Um and then affect his academic career? Um and then affect his academic career? Um and then and then how then did his successful and then how then did his successful and then how then did his successful apologetics affect his academic career? apologetics affect his academic career? apologetics affect his academic career? Because in the Oxford of the 1930s and Because in the Oxford of the 1930s and Because in the Oxford of the 1930s and 1940s, I can't imagine those were two 1940s, I can't imagine those were two 1940s, I can't imagine those were two things that were positive. His faith and things that were positive. His faith and things that were positive. His faith and then his popular apologetics. then his popular apologetics. then his popular apologetics. >> No, I think it's fair to say that Lewis >> No, I think it's fair to say that Lewis >> No, I think it's fair to say that Lewis was regarded as um was regarded as um was regarded as um uh uh uh slightly off-center. That he that he he slightly off-center. That he that he he slightly off-center. That he that he he he encountered opposition partly because he encountered opposition partly because he encountered opposition partly because he was a Christian, but I think there he was a Christian, but I think there he was a Christian, but I think there was another reason which was that Lewis was another reason which was that Lewis was another reason which was that Lewis had been hired to teach English language had been hired to teach English language had been hired to teach English language and literature at Magdalen College, and literature at Magdalen College, and literature at Magdalen College, Oxford and Oxford University and write Oxford and Oxford University and write Oxford and Oxford University and write some decent books on English literature. some decent books on English literature. some decent books on English literature. And actually, what he did write tended And actually, what he did write tended And actually, what he did write tended to be many things like The Screwtape to be many things like The Screwtape to be many things like The Screwtape Letters, which are great, but not really Letters, which are great, but not really Letters, which are great, but not really very academic. And I think that people very academic. And I think that people very academic. And I think that people really felt Lewis hadn't quite realized really felt Lewis hadn't quite realized really felt Lewis hadn't quite realized the obligations placed on him by being the obligations placed on him by being the obligations placed on him by being an academic. So, there was a concern an academic. So, there was a concern an academic. So, there was a concern there, but Lewis's conversion as a as to there, but Lewis's conversion as a as to there, but Lewis's conversion as a as to Christianity, I think um if anything Christianity, I think um if anything Christianity, I think um if anything gave a new animus to his scholarship gave a new animus to his scholarship gave a new animus to his scholarship because he began to realize I can use because he began to realize I can use because he began to realize I can use the scholarship to develop my the scholarship to develop my the scholarship to develop my presentation of Christianity. Um I think presentation of Christianity. Um I think presentation of Christianity. Um I think that that was that was part of the that that was that was part of the that that was that was part of the reason why he enjoyed reading people reason why he enjoyed reading people reason why he enjoyed reading people like George Herbert and others so much like George Herbert and others so much like George Herbert and others so much cuz they they in effect spoke to him at cuz they they in effect spoke to him at cuz they they in effect spoke to him at a spiritual level and he was able to use a spiritual level and he was able to use a spiritual level and he was able to use some in his apologetic writings. So, some in his apologetic writings. So, some in his apologetic writings. So, Lewis, I don't think saw a tension Lewis, I don't think saw a tension Lewis, I don't think saw a tension between his apologetic writings and his

between his apologetic writings and his between his apologetic writings and his academic career. But the difficulty was academic career. But the difficulty was academic career. But the difficulty was he spent so much time on his apologetic he spent so much time on his apologetic he spent so much time on his apologetic writings that he didn't really do what writings that he didn't really do what writings that he didn't really do what he was meant to do. And Lewis realized he was meant to do. And Lewis realized he was meant to do. And Lewis realized that and actually there is a moment in that and actually there is a moment in that and actually there is a moment in the late 1940s when Lewis finally the late 1940s when Lewis finally the late 1940s when Lewis finally realizes, "I've got to write this big realizes, "I've got to write this big realizes, "I've got to write this big book for Oxford University Press." Um book for Oxford University Press." Um book for Oxford University Press." Um and that of course reestablished him as and that of course reestablished him as and that of course reestablished him as a serious academic scholar and that's a serious academic scholar and that's a serious academic scholar and that's why he got the chair at Cambridge why he got the chair at Cambridge why he got the chair at Cambridge University. So he recovered from that. University. So he recovered from that. University. So he recovered from that. But I think he he may have misjudged the But I think he he may have misjudged the But I think he he may have misjudged the academic politics of his day at Oxford academic politics of his day at Oxford academic politics of his day at Oxford um in the 1940s. um in the 1940s. um in the 1940s. >> Yeah, part of >> Yeah, part of >> Yeah, part of part of the thesis of my book is that it part of the thesis of my book is that it part of the thesis of my book is that it was the 1930s were essential in the was the 1930s were essential in the was the 1930s were essential in the ability for Churchill and Lewis to find ability for Churchill and Lewis to find ability for Churchill and Lewis to find their voice in the 1940s because both of their voice in the 1940s because both of their voice in the 1940s because both of them were cutting so far against the them were cutting so far against the them were cutting so far against the grain. grain. grain. Um Great Britain simply was not ready Um Great Britain simply was not ready Um Great Britain simply was not ready for the conflict that they were going to for the conflict that they were going to for the conflict that they were going to face in the 1940s. face in the 1940s. face in the 1940s. Um but Lewis and Churchill were Um but Lewis and Churchill were Um but Lewis and Churchill were preparing themselves in their very preparing themselves in their very preparing themselves in their very different ways to be key figures in different ways to be key figures in different ways to be key figures in that. But precisely because they were that. But precisely because they were that. But precisely because they were doing in many ways the opposite or doing in many ways the opposite or doing in many ways the opposite or because they were they were in the because they were they were in the because they were they were in the wilderness in in different ways during wilderness in in different ways during wilderness in in different ways during those those years. And of course both of those those years. And of course both of those those years. And of course both of them still had close colleagues um them still had close colleagues um them still had close colleagues um even as Lewis's faith was emerging and even as Lewis's faith was emerging and even as Lewis's faith was emerging and developing and as he becomes a public developing and as he becomes a public developing and as he becomes a public figure of course he has the the Inklings figure of course he has the the Inklings figure of course he has the the Inklings along with him during that time uh which along with him during that time uh which along with him during that time uh which is why people go back so often to those is why people go back so often to those is why people go back so often to those special friendships.

special friendships. special friendships. Um let's talk about talk about Weight of Um let's talk about talk about Weight of Um let's talk about talk about Weight of Glory. You mentioned earlier a Glory. You mentioned earlier a Glory. You mentioned earlier a significant uh message that that Lewis significant uh message that that Lewis significant uh message that that Lewis had written that really shaped so much had written that really shaped so much had written that really shaped so much of your conversion. Weight of Glory is of your conversion. Weight of Glory is of your conversion. Weight of Glory is one of those June 8th, 1941. one of those June 8th, 1941. one of those June 8th, 1941. Um in in my book I'm I'm looking at the Um in in my book I'm I'm looking at the Um in in my book I'm I'm looking at the context there. Not that Lewis would have context there. Not that Lewis would have context there. Not that Lewis would have been especially mindful of those things, been especially mindful of those things, been especially mindful of those things, but you have then the invasion of the but you have then the invasion of the but you have then the invasion of the Soviet Union. you have that also Soviet Union. you have that also Soviet Union. you have that also almost immediately following the worst almost immediately following the worst almost immediately following the worst night of the Blitz. Um Lewis was night of the Blitz. Um Lewis was night of the Blitz. Um Lewis was famously disdainful of newspapers. That famously disdainful of newspapers. That famously disdainful of newspapers. That comes out in The Screwtape Letters early comes out in The Screwtape Letters early comes out in The Screwtape Letters early on, even though he published The on, even though he published The on, even though he published The Screwtape Letters in the Guardian Screwtape Letters in the Guardian Screwtape Letters in the Guardian Anglican Anglican Anglican uh newspaper. Um what is it about the uh newspaper. Um what is it about the uh newspaper. Um what is it about the context context context that helps to shape The Weight of Glory that helps to shape The Weight of Glory that helps to shape The Weight of Glory as such a timeless and powerful lecture? as such a timeless and powerful lecture? as such a timeless and powerful lecture? >> Well, you're right. It It is very, very >> Well, you're right. It It is very, very >> Well, you're right. It It is very, very special and um special and um special and um it is one of the things I keep going it is one of the things I keep going it is one of the things I keep going back to, I have to say. It's one of my back to, I have to say. It's one of my back to, I have to say. It's one of my favorite works by Lewis. I think it's favorite works by Lewis. I think it's favorite works by Lewis. I think it's partly because of the the quality of the partly because of the the quality of the partly because of the the quality of the argumentation, the argumentation, the argumentation, the the attractiveness of the way he leads the attractiveness of the way he leads the attractiveness of the way he leads me through these things. And also, the me through these things. And also, the me through these things. And also, the sheer fact it's written during the sheer fact it's written during the sheer fact it's written during the Second World War. And there are points Second World War. And there are points Second World War. And there are points where you can see connections, but where you can see connections, but where you can see connections, but really Lewis is is in effect raising really Lewis is is in effect raising really Lewis is is in effect raising people's thoughts up uh from not just people's thoughts up uh from not just people's thoughts up uh from not just can we survive this physically, but can can we survive this physically, but can can we survive this physically, but can we flourish spiritually? And in this, we flourish spiritually? And in this, we flourish spiritually? And in this, Lewis really is bringing out um Lewis really is bringing out um Lewis really is bringing out um what we need to do as people to to

what we need to do as people to to what we need to do as people to to become what God wants us to be, to to become what God wants us to be, to to become what God wants us to be, to to achieve that that greater vision of achieve that that greater vision of achieve that that greater vision of things, which really enables us to things, which really enables us to things, which really enables us to flourish as human beings. flourish as human beings. flourish as human beings. It It's one of his favorite my favorite It It's one of his favorite my favorite It It's one of his favorite my favorite works by him. I think that I often works by him. I think that I often works by him. I think that I often wonder what would the audience on that wonder what would the audience on that wonder what would the audience on that evening have made of this? I just I just evening have made of this? I just I just evening have made of this? I just I just don't know. But Lewis was a very good don't know. But Lewis was a very good don't know. But Lewis was a very good public speaker, and I'm sure that um he public speaker, and I'm sure that um he public speaker, and I'm sure that um he carried them along, even though it's a carried them along, even though it's a carried them along, even though it's a long lecture. I think that they were long lecture. I think that they were long lecture. I think that they were able to follow the steps, and happily it able to follow the steps, and happily it able to follow the steps, and happily it was published soon afterwards, so he was published soon afterwards, so he was published soon afterwards, so he could you could read it through. But for could you could read it through. But for could you could read it through. But for me, it's it's a remarkable lecture me, it's it's a remarkable lecture me, it's it's a remarkable lecture because he uses very, very ordinary because he uses very, very ordinary because he uses very, very ordinary illustrations, use some beautiful turns illustrations, use some beautiful turns illustrations, use some beautiful turns of phrase to lead you from simple things of phrase to lead you from simple things of phrase to lead you from simple things like how do I learn Italian? Or like how do I learn Italian? Or like how do I learn Italian? Or something like that. Um to in effect a something like that. Um to in effect a something like that. Um to in effect a deeper understanding of who we are. And deeper understanding of who we are. And deeper understanding of who we are. And I think for me my favorite bit is this I think for me my favorite bit is this I think for me my favorite bit is this glorious realization. There's a door. glorious realization. There's a door. glorious realization. There's a door. There's a door into a greater picture of There's a door into a greater picture of There's a door into a greater picture of reality. There's a door into who we are reality. There's a door into who we are reality. There's a door into who we are really meant to be as human beings. And really meant to be as human beings. And really meant to be as human beings. And we're going to get in there. Uh it's we're going to get in there. Uh it's we're going to get in there. Uh it's it's a message of hope which Lewis it's a message of hope which Lewis it's a message of hope which Lewis dangles in front of his audience, but dangles in front of his audience, but dangles in front of his audience, but it's so powerful. Like I just feel it's so powerful. Like I just feel it's so powerful. Like I just feel overwhelmed when I read that.

overwhelmed when I read that. overwhelmed when I read that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Speaking of being being overwhelmed, I Speaking of being being overwhelmed, I Speaking of being being overwhelmed, I wanted to to share this this with you. wanted to to share this this with you. wanted to to share this this with you. Um I was looking through the third Um I was looking through the third Um I was looking through the third installment of Mere Christianity installment of Mere Christianity installment of Mere Christianity lectures, and I ran into the the lectures, and I ran into the the lectures, and I ran into the the back-to-back uh broadcast, I should say. back-to-back uh broadcast, I should say. back-to-back uh broadcast, I should say. Back back back broadcasts on uh the on Back back back broadcasts on uh the on Back back back broadcasts on uh the on marriage and then on forgiveness. And of marriage and then on forgiveness. And of marriage and then on forgiveness. And of course in forgive In marriage, he says course in forgive In marriage, he says course in forgive In marriage, he says the Christian teaching on sexuality is the Christian teaching on sexuality is the Christian teaching on sexuality is the hardest thing for the world to be the hardest thing for the world to be the hardest thing for the world to be able to confront. But then you you'll able to confront. But then you you'll able to confront. But then you you'll probably recall that in the next one he probably recall that in the next one he probably recall that in the next one he turns around and says, "You know, I I'm turns around and says, "You know, I I'm turns around and says, "You know, I I'm not sure I was right about that because not sure I was right about that because not sure I was right about that because there's only one aspect of Christianity there's only one aspect of Christianity there's only one aspect of Christianity that I'm aware of that makes people that I'm aware of that makes people that I'm aware of that makes people absolutely angry. absolutely angry. absolutely angry. And that's forgiveness." And that's forgiveness." And that's forgiveness." And then he talks a little bit further, And then he talks a little bit further, And then he talks a little bit further, and then he says, "Can you imagine being and then he says, "Can you imagine being and then he says, "Can you imagine being a Jew or a Pole forgiving the Gestapo?" a Jew or a Pole forgiving the Gestapo?" a Jew or a Pole forgiving the Gestapo?" And of course I had read this before, And of course I had read this before, And of course I had read this before, but I went back to see what night did he but I went back to see what night did he but I went back to see what night did he broadcast this.

broadcast this. broadcast this. And I just had not put two and two And I just had not put two and two And I just had not put two and two together, 1942. together, 1942. together, 1942. It's in the immediate aftermath of a It's in the immediate aftermath of a It's in the immediate aftermath of a Royal Albert Hall protest led by the Royal Albert Hall protest led by the Royal Albert Hall protest led by the Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Catholic Church in Great Britain, as the Catholic Church in Great Britain, as the Catholic Church in Great Britain, as well as the head of the Free Church, well as the head of the Free Church, well as the head of the Free Church, organized by a Jewish council. Winston organized by a Jewish council. Winston organized by a Jewish council. Winston Churchill sends a letter. It's at the Churchill sends a letter. It's at the Churchill sends a letter. It's at the end of the three months of the height of end of the three months of the height of end of the three months of the height of the Holocaust. 2 million of the 6 the Holocaust. 2 million of the 6 the Holocaust. 2 million of the 6 million Jews have been killed in the million Jews have been killed in the million Jews have been killed in the uh uh uh preceding 3 months and I thought preceding 3 months and I thought preceding 3 months and I thought now I'm seeing this totally differently. now I'm seeing this totally differently. now I'm seeing this totally differently. Now, he wouldn't have known all that, Now, he wouldn't have known all that, Now, he wouldn't have known all that, but there were things that were swirling but there were things that were swirling but there were things that were swirling at the time, but what I what I've what at the time, but what I what I've what at the time, but what I what I've what it seeing it in the context does is you it seeing it in the context does is you it seeing it in the context does is you see what he's doing as an apologist as see what he's doing as an apologist as see what he's doing as an apologist as in a teacher, he's grabbing from this in a teacher, he's grabbing from this in a teacher, he's grabbing from this incredibly heightened sense of reality incredibly heightened sense of reality incredibly heightened sense of reality and pointing people to and pointing people to and pointing people to in guiding people to the critical in guiding people to the critical in guiding people to the critical questions and then pointing them to what questions and then pointing them to what questions and then pointing them to what hope looks like and beyond. hope looks like and beyond. hope looks like and beyond. Am I on the right track? There That's Am I on the right track? There That's Am I on the right track? There That's what I'm That's what I'm finding at what I'm That's what I'm finding at what I'm That's what I'm finding at least as I go back through these.

least as I go back through these. least as I go back through these. >> think that's very interesting. I I had >> think that's very interesting. I I had >> think that's very interesting. I I had not made that connection myself and and not made that connection myself and and not made that connection myself and and uh I'm very glad you you've told me uh I'm very glad you you've told me uh I'm very glad you you've told me about it cuz I'll follow through on about it cuz I'll follow through on about it cuz I'll follow through on that, but it if you're right, that that that, but it if you're right, that that that, but it if you're right, that that actually really helps us to understand actually really helps us to understand actually really helps us to understand why Lewis felt felt he had to say why Lewis felt felt he had to say why Lewis felt felt he had to say forgiveness is so difficult because so forgiveness is so difficult because so forgiveness is so difficult because so often it's trite, I forgive you, but often it's trite, I forgive you, but often it's trite, I forgive you, but when you look at the harsh reality, when you look at the harsh reality, when you look at the harsh reality, I mean, I mean, I mean, it's very very difficult to forgive it's very very difficult to forgive it's very very difficult to forgive things like that. And that's why for me things like that. And that's why for me things like that. And that's why for me it makes me look at God and say, well, it makes me look at God and say, well, it makes me look at God and say, well, you managed to do that. Um and um you managed to do that. Um and um you managed to do that. Um and um somehow I've got to try and somehow I've got to try and somehow I've got to try and be like that. Even though I don't feel be like that. Even though I don't feel be like that. Even though I don't feel like forgiving this, I realize there's like forgiving this, I realize there's like forgiving this, I realize there's something deeper here. I think Lewis is something deeper here. I think Lewis is something deeper here. I think Lewis is then making a very powerful point in then making a very powerful point in then making a very powerful point in doing so, but I just I I just didn't doing so, but I just I I just didn't doing so, but I just I I just didn't wasn't aware of that context. That's wasn't aware of that context. That's wasn't aware of that context. That's really helpful. really helpful. really helpful. >> Yeah, I'll send you I'll send you the >> Yeah, I'll send you I'll send you the >> Yeah, I'll send you I'll send you the chapter afterwards we can talk about it. chapter afterwards we can talk about it. chapter afterwards we can talk about it. But that that's what I I I've I've been But that that's what I I I've I've been But that that's what I I I've I've been undertaking this exercise thinking I did undertaking this exercise thinking I did undertaking this exercise thinking I did not know any of these connections. I not know any of these connections. I not know any of these connections. I didn't look at these. In fact, I'll I'll didn't look at these. In fact, I'll I'll didn't look at these. In fact, I'll I'll end on this question.

end on this question. end on this question. Um so, there is no archive in the United Um so, there is no archive in the United Um so, there is no archive in the United States of the Guardian newspaper. Of States of the Guardian newspaper. Of States of the Guardian newspaper. Of course, the Anglican newspaper that course, the Anglican newspaper that course, the Anglican newspaper that Lewis published with and he jokes later Lewis published with and he jokes later Lewis published with and he jokes later about how it's out of print and he hopes about how it's out of print and he hopes about how it's out of print and he hopes that it wasn't his fault that it went that it wasn't his fault that it went that it wasn't his fault that it went out of print. There's no archive in the out of print. There's no archive in the out of print. There's no archive in the United States, so I had to work with a United States, so I had to work with a United States, so I had to work with a place that digitizes and they were place that digitizes and they were place that digitizes and they were digitizing the Lambeth digitizing the Lambeth digitizing the Lambeth archives of the Guardian. And of course, archives of the Guardian. And of course, archives of the Guardian. And of course, what I'm doing there is to go back to what I'm doing there is to go back to what I'm doing there is to go back to find the Screwtape Letters uh more than find the Screwtape Letters uh more than find the Screwtape Letters uh more than anything else. You have Great Divorce in anything else. You have Great Divorce in anything else. You have Great Divorce in there, um then you have the Screwtape there, um then you have the Screwtape there, um then you have the Screwtape Letters. I'm I'm writing currently on Letters. I'm I'm writing currently on Letters. I'm I'm writing currently on Great Divorce, but looking there. Um I Great Divorce, but looking there. Um I Great Divorce, but looking there. Um I wanted you to comment on this. wanted you to comment on this. wanted you to comment on this. It makes, you know, this format of the It makes, you know, this format of the It makes, you know, this format of the Screwtape Letters, it's it's often Screwtape Letters, it's it's often Screwtape Letters, it's it's often imitated, never duplicated. It makes imitated, never duplicated. It makes imitated, never duplicated. It makes sense. We look back and we say, "It sense. We look back and we say, "It sense. We look back and we say, "It makes sense he'd write about the demonic makes sense he'd write about the demonic makes sense he'd write about the demonic world amid a world war and the evil world amid a world war and the evil world amid a world war and the evil Nazis." But it's not actually the Nazis." But it's not actually the Nazis." But it's not actually the approach that he takes. He says the war approach that he takes. He says the war approach that he takes. He says the war is a distraction from the real battle. is a distraction from the real battle. is a distraction from the real battle. The real battle is is the spiritual, The real battle is is the spiritual, The real battle is is the spiritual, this cosmic warfare there. Um help help this cosmic warfare there. Um help help this cosmic warfare there. Um help help explain for us the the continuing explain for us the the continuing explain for us the the continuing relevance of the Screwtape Letters, relevance of the Screwtape Letters, relevance of the Screwtape Letters, clearly one of Lewis's most most popular clearly one of Lewis's most most popular clearly one of Lewis's most most popular works.

works. works. >> Well, I think it continues to be >> Well, I think it continues to be >> Well, I think it continues to be relevant for I think many reasons. One relevant for I think many reasons. One relevant for I think many reasons. One is the the humor is really, really is the the humor is really, really is the the humor is really, really engaging. It shows that Lewis is able to engaging. It shows that Lewis is able to engaging. It shows that Lewis is able to use humor very often to make points that use humor very often to make points that use humor very often to make points that otherwise might be difficult. Humor is a otherwise might be difficult. Humor is a otherwise might be difficult. Humor is a way of um way of um way of um creating gateways to the soul, if you creating gateways to the soul, if you creating gateways to the soul, if you like. It It breaks down barriers, makes like. It It breaks down barriers, makes like. It It breaks down barriers, makes it easier to say difficult things. And it easier to say difficult things. And it easier to say difficult things. And And And Lewis is very, very good at And And Lewis is very, very good at And And Lewis is very, very good at doing this. For example, his description doing this. For example, his description doing this. For example, his description of a typical British congregation of of a typical British congregation of of a typical British congregation of very, very very, very very, very uh ordinary people, you know, I mean, uh ordinary people, you know, I mean, uh ordinary people, you know, I mean, what Lewis is saying is, you know, what Lewis is saying is, you know, what Lewis is saying is, you know, Christians aren't special. If there's Christians aren't special. If there's Christians aren't special. If there's anything special about them, it's what anything special about them, it's what anything special about them, it's what God has made them. Uh I really like the God has made them. Uh I really like the God has made them. Uh I really like the way he does that. I think the other way he does that. I think the other way he does that. I think the other thing which I I really appreciate is the thing which I I really appreciate is the thing which I I really appreciate is the way he almost like inverts the way he almost like inverts the way he almost like inverts the traditional framework for thinking about traditional framework for thinking about traditional framework for thinking about how do you how do you be a good how do you how do you be a good how do you how do you be a good Christian? You try and imagine somebody Christian? You try and imagine somebody Christian? You try and imagine somebody who's trying to stop you being a who's trying to stop you being a who's trying to stop you being a Christian at all. And uh again, I Christian at all. And uh again, I Christian at all. And uh again, I appreciate that very much. appreciate that very much. appreciate that very much. But again, we do need to remember the But again, we do need to remember the But again, we do need to remember the Second World War context for this. Second World War context for this. Second World War context for this. And I think that one of the things that And I think that one of the things that And I think that one of the things that Lewis is really doing is to try and try Lewis is really doing is to try and try Lewis is really doing is to try and try and help people to see that actually and help people to see that actually and help people to see that actually there are some rather dark aspects to there are some rather dark aspects to there are some rather dark aspects to human nature which we are becoming aware human nature which we are becoming aware human nature which we are becoming aware of through the war. And maybe that means of through the war. And maybe that means of through the war. And maybe that means that um we're not quite as good as we that um we're not quite as good as we that um we're not quite as good as we think we are.

think we are. think we are. But the thing I But the thing I But the thing I There's something slightly different. I There's something slightly different. I There's something slightly different. I have to say that the the thing I take have to say that the the thing I take have to say that the the thing I take away from the writing of the Screwtape away from the writing of the Screwtape away from the writing of the Screwtape Letters and Letters and Letters and this doesn't speak very well about me is this doesn't speak very well about me is this doesn't speak very well about me is um as far as I can see Lewis got the um as far as I can see Lewis got the um as far as I can see Lewis got the idea for this during a rather boring idea for this during a rather boring idea for this during a rather boring sermon. And um And um Now now I suspect some of my sermons may Now now I suspect some of my sermons may Now now I suspect some of my sermons may have been rather boring as well. And so have been rather boring as well. And so have been rather boring as well. And so my hope is that maybe my hope is that maybe my hope is that maybe it inspired people to have great it inspired people to have great it inspired people to have great thoughts like that one that got Lewis's thoughts like that one that got Lewis's thoughts like that one that got Lewis's Screwtape Letters underway. Screwtape Letters underway. Screwtape Letters underway. >> The Lord can use any means. >> The Lord can use any means. >> The Lord can use any means. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> Well, Alister McGrath, you have been >> Well, Alister McGrath, you have been >> Well, Alister McGrath, you have been a wonderful guest. Again, you can see a wonderful guest. Again, you can see a wonderful guest. Again, you can see why why why everybody can see and hear why so many everybody can see and hear why so many everybody can see and hear why so many people love to hear you lecture, love to people love to hear you lecture, love to people love to hear you lecture, love to read your writing. There's so much of read your writing. There's so much of read your writing. There's so much of that verve and vigor that verve and vigor that verve and vigor in your own storytelling and in your own storytelling and in your own storytelling and storytelling apologetics is such a big storytelling apologetics is such a big storytelling apologetics is such a big part of what you've done and you've been part of what you've done and you've been part of what you've done and you've been an inspiration to us at the Keller an inspiration to us at the Keller an inspiration to us at the Keller Center with Center with Center with with with cultural apologetics and with with cultural apologetics and with with cultural apologetics and engaging with cultural narratives. So, engaging with cultural narratives. So, engaging with cultural narratives. So, thanks for your encouragement. Thanks thanks for your encouragement. Thanks thanks for your encouragement. Thanks for your support. Thanks again just for your support. Thanks again just for your support. Thanks again just personally for the way that you've personally for the way that you've personally for the way that you've inspired me, the way you've instructed inspired me, the way you've instructed inspired me, the way you've instructed me me me and and just the example that you've and and just the example that you've and and just the example that you've set. Just want to say thank you to that set. Just want to say thank you to that set. Just want to say thank you to that and thanks for joining me on this and thanks for joining me on this and thanks for joining me on this episode of Gospel Bound.

episode of Gospel Bound. episode of Gospel Bound. >> Well, thanks for a wonderful discussion >> Well, thanks for a wonderful discussion >> Well, thanks for a wonderful discussion and I I love what you're doing. Please and I I love what you're doing. Please and I I love what you're doing. Please keep doing it. And thank you again. >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember when we're bound to the gospel, remember when we're bound to the gospel, remember when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.