Preparing Believers to Suffer [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 40]

When I have somebody come in and they're When I have somebody come in and they're just hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, just hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, just hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, thank you that they're just hanging on. thank you that they're just hanging on. thank you that they're just hanging on. You know, that's the that's you that You know, that's the that's you that You know, that's the that's you that they're just hanging on. they're just hanging on. they're just hanging on. >> Victorious Christian life. >> Victorious Christian life. >> Victorious Christian life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They have not turned their back on you. have not turned their back on you. have not turned their back on you. They've not given up. They still want to They've not given up. They still want to They've not given up. They still want to trust you. They still want to feel whole trust you. They still want to feel whole trust you. They still want to feel whole again. They're not there yet, but they again. They're not there yet, but they again. They're not there yet, but they hadn't given up. Praise God that that is hadn't given up. Praise God that that is hadn't given up. Praise God that that is the case. the case. the case. [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is nuts and bolts of ministry. My name is Matt Smiths Matt Smiths Matt Smiths >> and I'm L Duncan and we're going to be >> and I'm L Duncan and we're going to be >> and I'm L Duncan and we're going to be thinking in this episode about uh the thinking in this episode about uh the thinking in this episode about uh the reality that life is tragic. Um like reality that life is tragic. Um like reality that life is tragic. Um like ever since Genesis chapter 3, uh we have ever since Genesis chapter 3, uh we have ever since Genesis chapter 3, uh we have been living and walking through the been living and walking through the been living and walking through the rubble and wreckage of Eden and rubble and wreckage of Eden and rubble and wreckage of Eden and suffering. therefore is something that suffering. therefore is something that suffering. therefore is something that every single person in our church either every single person in our church either every single person in our church either is about to experience, is in the middle is about to experience, is in the middle is about to experience, is in the middle of experiencing, or will experience of experiencing, or will experience of experiencing, or will experience sometime soon. So, as you reflect on uh sometime soon. So, as you reflect on uh sometime soon. So, as you reflect on uh your longtime ministry as a pastor, how your longtime ministry as a pastor, how your longtime ministry as a pastor, how did you prepare your people to suffer?

did you prepare your people to suffer? did you prepare your people to suffer? Well, one is to uh ground them in the Well, one is to uh ground them in the Well, one is to uh ground them in the reality that suffering is a universal reality that suffering is a universal reality that suffering is a universal experience to be expected. I mean part experience to be expected. I mean part experience to be expected. I mean part of preparing people to expect suffering of preparing people to expect suffering of preparing people to expect suffering is to prepare them to expect suffering. is to prepare them to expect suffering. is to prepare them to expect suffering. And what I mean by that taoglogical I And what I mean by that taoglogical I And what I mean by that taoglogical I guess is that we can know that there is guess is that we can know that there is guess is that we can know that there is suffering in the world. We can know that suffering in the world. We can know that suffering in the world. We can know that we have experienced suffering. We can be we have experienced suffering. We can be we have experienced suffering. We can be dealing with our experience of dealing with our experience of dealing with our experience of suffering. We can be dealing with our suffering. We can be dealing with our suffering. We can be dealing with our experience of suffering theologically experience of suffering theologically experience of suffering theologically and still be surprised by suffering. and still be surprised by suffering. and still be surprised by suffering. Which is why Peter in 1 Peter 4 has to Which is why Peter in 1 Peter 4 has to Which is why Peter in 1 Peter 4 has to say, don't be surprised. say, don't be surprised. say, don't be surprised. >> Right? And so I think part of part of >> Right? And so I think part of part of >> Right? And so I think part of part of that is getting folks in the mode that is getting folks in the mode that is getting folks in the mode because I think most of the time when because I think most of the time when because I think most of the time when especially acute seasons of suffering especially acute seasons of suffering especially acute seasons of suffering happen, we are taken aback. We're we're happen, we are taken aback. We're we're happen, we are taken aback. We're we're caught off guard. Even if we're e even caught off guard. Even if we're e even caught off guard. Even if we're e even if you know we we know a theology of if you know we we know a theology of if you know we we know a theology of God's providence, we believe in the God's providence, we believe in the God's providence, we believe in the sovereignty of God, we've experienced sovereignty of God, we've experienced sovereignty of God, we've experienced suffering in our life, we can be taken suffering in our life, we can be taken suffering in our life, we can be taken off guard. So I think one thing I'm off guard. So I think one thing I'm off guard. So I think one thing I'm trying to do is help people be prepared trying to do is help people be prepared trying to do is help people be prepared for that initial for that initial for that initial shock surprise that sometimes happens in shock surprise that sometimes happens in shock surprise that sometimes happens in in moment of so that we can be in the in moment of so that we can be in the in moment of so that we can be in the mode of this is what God made me for.

mode of this is what God made me for. mode of this is what God made me for. this is what God has been building me this is what God has been building me this is what God has been building me for. This is an opportunity. for. This is an opportunity. for. This is an opportunity. This is not, oh no, everything has gone This is not, oh no, everything has gone This is not, oh no, everything has gone wrong. Everything that I ever believed wrong. Everything that I ever believed wrong. Everything that I ever believed is not true. It's this is what is not true. It's this is what is not true. It's this is what everything I've ever believed is everything I've ever believed is everything I've ever believed is preparing me for. preparing me for. preparing me for. >> And so that's that's one thing. Um, and >> And so that's that's one thing. Um, and >> And so that's that's one thing. Um, and so, you know, there are lots of sayings so, you know, there are lots of sayings so, you know, there are lots of sayings about this. The the Puritan saying, about this. The the Puritan saying, about this. The the Puritan saying, you've probably heard it before. or I'm you've probably heard it before. or I'm you've probably heard it before. or I'm not even sure which Puritan it was that not even sure which Puritan it was that not even sure which Puritan it was that God had one son without sin but none God had one son without sin but none God had one son without sin but none without suffering. So just getting into without suffering. So just getting into without suffering. So just getting into the mindset that this is not a surprise the mindset that this is not a surprise the mindset that this is not a surprise partly because partly because partly because so many people that have faith crises so many people that have faith crises so many people that have faith crises and walk away from the faith will do so and walk away from the faith will do so and walk away from the faith will do so and suffering will have a role in it. and suffering will have a role in it. and suffering will have a role in it. You know Bartman is a name that I bet a You know Bartman is a name that I bet a You know Bartman is a name that I bet a lot of our people have heard. his lot of our people have heard. his lot of our people have heard. his rejection of God is very much rooted in rejection of God is very much rooted in rejection of God is very much rooted in the experience of suffering that friends the experience of suffering that friends the experience of suffering that friends of his uh went through. And so you can of his uh went through. And so you can of his uh went through. And so you can you can find a lot of people that have you can find a lot of people that have you can find a lot of people that have been shaken in their faith because of been shaken in their faith because of been shaken in their faith because of suffering. And what happens is they will suffering. And what happens is they will suffering. And what happens is they will draw a line from that suffering to God draw a line from that suffering to God draw a line from that suffering to God and question God's goodness or God's and question God's goodness or God's and question God's goodness or God's sovereignty sovereignty sovereignty rather than recognizing that all rather than recognizing that all rather than recognizing that all suffering in this world is not due to a suffering in this world is not due to a suffering in this world is not due to a failure of God's goodness or a failure failure of God's goodness or a failure failure of God's goodness or a failure of God's sovereignty. But our failure of of God's sovereignty. But our failure of of God's sovereignty. But our failure of sin, the sin of Adam and Eve created a sin, the sin of Adam and Eve created a sin, the sin of Adam and Eve created a world in which there was suffering as a

world in which there was suffering as a world in which there was suffering as a consequence of their rebellion against consequence of their rebellion against consequence of their rebellion against God. Now our suffering may not be the God. Now our suffering may not be the God. Now our suffering may not be the consequence of our sin. It may be the consequence of our sin. It may be the consequence of our sin. It may be the consequence of somebody else's sin. But consequence of somebody else's sin. But consequence of somebody else's sin. But all suffering in this world is related all suffering in this world is related all suffering in this world is related to that human rebellion. And what to that human rebellion. And what to that human rebellion. And what happens is people will question God happens is people will question God happens is people will question God rather than recognize in a fallen world rather than recognize in a fallen world rather than recognize in a fallen world until God removes sin, until God removes sin, until God removes sin, there will always be suffering. And so there will always be suffering. And so there will always be suffering. And so suffering in this world doesn't disprove suffering in this world doesn't disprove suffering in this world doesn't disprove God. It actually proves what the Bible God. It actually proves what the Bible God. It actually proves what the Bible says about God. And so as Christians, I says about God. And so as Christians, I says about God. And so as Christians, I want to know what do I need to do and want to know what do I need to do and want to know what do I need to do and especially believe in this season of especially believe in this season of especially believe in this season of suffering? How do I want to respond to suffering? How do I want to respond to suffering? How do I want to respond to it? How how do I want to um make the it? How how do I want to um make the it? How how do I want to um make the most of the suffering that I am going most of the suffering that I am going most of the suffering that I am going through? And the the point being is you through? And the the point being is you through? And the the point being is you don't want to waste whether it's the don't want to waste whether it's the don't want to waste whether it's the suffering of cancer or the suffering of suffering of cancer or the suffering of suffering of cancer or the suffering of the loss of a child, the suffering of the loss of a child, the suffering of the loss of a child, the suffering of the loss of a parent, the suffering of the loss of a parent, the suffering of the loss of a parent, the suffering of the loss of a spouse or whatever the the loss of a spouse or whatever the the loss of a spouse or whatever the trouble is. You don't want that to be trouble is. You don't want that to be trouble is. You don't want that to be wasted in your life. You want to get out wasted in your life. You want to get out wasted in your life. You want to get out of that what you know that God intends of that what you know that God intends of that what you know that God intends for good. He tells you that he makes for good. He tells you that he makes for good. He tells you that he makes everything to work together for good.

everything to work together for good. everything to work together for good. That doesn't mean that everything is That doesn't mean that everything is That doesn't mean that everything is good and it doesn't mean that we should good and it doesn't mean that we should good and it doesn't mean that we should be glib about suffering. But he is be glib about suffering. But he is be glib about suffering. But he is determined to force everything in this determined to force everything in this determined to force everything in this world to serve the interests of those world to serve the interests of those world to serve the interests of those who love him. And so as a believer, one who love him. And so as a believer, one who love him. And so as a believer, one thing I want to do is I want to think, thing I want to do is I want to think, thing I want to do is I want to think, okay, Lord, I know you have purposes in okay, Lord, I know you have purposes in okay, Lord, I know you have purposes in this for me. They're purposes of grace. this for me. They're purposes of grace. this for me. They're purposes of grace. They're not purposes to harm me, uh to They're not purposes to harm me, uh to They're not purposes to harm me, uh to to to destroy me. their purposes. to to destroy me. their purposes. to to destroy me. their purposes. They're good purposes for me. I want to They're good purposes for me. I want to They're good purposes for me. I want to know. So, as a pastor, I want to get my know. So, as a pastor, I want to get my know. So, as a pastor, I want to get my people attuned to that. I'm happy that people attuned to that. I'm happy that people attuned to that. I'm happy that you noted that suffering causes some you noted that suffering causes some you noted that suffering causes some people to walk away from God, but you people to walk away from God, but you people to walk away from God, but you said actually suffering can be an said actually suffering can be an said actually suffering can be an argument for God. And part of that is argument for God. And part of that is argument for God. And part of that is because suffering the the fact that it because suffering the the fact that it because suffering the the fact that it does feel so unnatural does feel so unnatural does feel so unnatural indicates that we were not made for a indicates that we were not made for a indicates that we were not made for a world with suffering, world with suffering, world with suffering, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> So, you know, turn on a documentary >> So, you know, turn on a documentary >> So, you know, turn on a documentary about the animal kingdom and you're not about the animal kingdom and you're not about the animal kingdom and you're not going to see the uh the the same going to see the uh the the same going to see the uh the the same response to suffering in nature red and response to suffering in nature red and response to suffering in nature red and tooth and claw. But for those of us who tooth and claw. But for those of us who tooth and claw. But for those of us who are made in the image and likeness of are made in the image and likeness of are made in the image and likeness of God, who were made for fellowship with God, who were made for fellowship with God, who were made for fellowship with God in a perfect world, suffering, God in a perfect world, suffering, God in a perfect world, suffering, though it is in a fallen world normal, though it is in a fallen world normal, though it is in a fallen world normal, it's still not natural, it's still not natural, it's still not natural, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And it's not permanent. We we look >> And it's not permanent. We we look >> And it's not permanent. We we look forward and there's something in us that forward and there's something in us that forward and there's something in us that testifies to this reality that we are testifies to this reality that we are testifies to this reality that we are aching for the world, the kind of world aching for the world, the kind of world aching for the world, the kind of world for which we were made. And I think just for which we were made. And I think just for which we were made. And I think just reminding people of that, that's why reminding people of that, that's why reminding people of that, that's why Paul can use adjectives Paul can use adjectives Paul can use adjectives that apart from Christian theology would that apart from Christian theology would that apart from Christian theology would be downright insulting. He can look at be downright insulting. He can look at be downright insulting. He can look at someone in the throws of pain holding someone in the throws of pain holding someone in the throws of pain holding their stillborn child and say, their stillborn child and say, their stillborn child and say, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> "Yeah, >> light and momentary." >> light and momentary." >> light and momentary." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Second Corinthians 4. >> Second Corinthians 4. >> Second Corinthians 4. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What audacity to call our suffering >> What audacity to call our suffering >> What audacity to call our suffering light and momentary. or Peter in 1 Peter light and momentary. or Peter in 1 Peter light and momentary. or Peter in 1 Peter 1 says, "You've had to suffer grief and 1 says, "You've had to suffer grief and 1 says, "You've had to suffer grief and all kinds of trials for a little while."

all kinds of trials for a little while." all kinds of trials for a little while." It's like, "What are you talking about, It's like, "What are you talking about, It's like, "What are you talking about, Peter? For a little while. How about the Peter? For a little while. How about the Peter? For a little while. How about the whole last year? How about the whole whole last year? How about the whole whole last year? How about the whole last decade? How about a lifetime of last decade? How about a lifetime of last decade? How about a lifetime of pain?" pain?" pain?" >> But in light of our eternal future, that >> But in light of our eternal future, that >> But in light of our eternal future, that ocean of eternity and pleasure with God, ocean of eternity and pleasure with God, ocean of eternity and pleasure with God, it really is just a drop. And I the only it really is just a drop. And I the only it really is just a drop. And I the only thing I would add to that all of which thing I would add to that all of which thing I would add to that all of which is very important and one is that you is very important and one is that you is very important and one is that you you've you've pointed to you you can't you've you've pointed to you you can't you've you've pointed to you you can't understand this life as a believer understand this life as a believer understand this life as a believer unless you understand God's eternal unless you understand God's eternal unless you understand God's eternal purposes. And that's one reason Paul purposes. And that's one reason Paul purposes. And that's one reason Paul will say you know if we only have hope will say you know if we only have hope will say you know if we only have hope in God in this life we are of all people in God in this life we are of all people in God in this life we are of all people most miserable. Uh because the Christian most miserable. Uh because the Christian most miserable. Uh because the Christian hope demands an expectation of the new hope demands an expectation of the new hope demands an expectation of the new heavens and the new earth. And so pain heavens and the new earth. And so pain heavens and the new earth. And so pain does need to be seen in that light and does need to be seen in that light and does need to be seen in that light and that's why it can be said to be light that's why it can be said to be light that's why it can be said to be light and momentary. The other thing that we and momentary. The other thing that we and momentary. The other thing that we have going for us is we do not believe have going for us is we do not believe have going for us is we do not believe that there is meaningless suffering for that there is meaningless suffering for that there is meaningless suffering for a believer. Mhm. a believer. Mhm. a believer. Mhm. >> And that's that's that's what our >> And that's that's that's what our >> And that's that's that's what our unbelieving friends I don't know how unbelieving friends I don't know how unbelieving friends I don't know how they do it because if if you if you they do it because if if you if you they do it because if if you if you really don't believe you really don't really don't believe you really don't really don't believe you really don't believe that there is a God who has believe that there is a God who has believe that there is a God who has purposes and good purposes in this world purposes and good purposes in this world purposes and good purposes in this world then not only is everything meaningless then not only is everything meaningless then not only is everything meaningless one of the everything that's meaningless one of the everything that's meaningless one of the everything that's meaningless is your suffering. It means absolutely is your suffering. It means absolutely is your suffering. It means absolutely that it just happened.

that it just happened. that it just happened. >> It's for no purpose. It serves no >> It's for no purpose. It serves no >> It's for no purpose. It serves no greater end. It's meaningless. No greater end. It's meaningless. No greater end. It's meaningless. No believer has to face his or her believer has to face his or her believer has to face his or her suffering that way suffering that way suffering that way to to know I know that my God is going to to know I know that my God is going to to know I know that my God is going to make even this serve me because he to make even this serve me because he to make even this serve me because he doesn't allow his children to go through doesn't allow his children to go through doesn't allow his children to go through things that are meaningless. things that are meaningless. things that are meaningless. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I instilling that kind of confidence >> And I instilling that kind of confidence >> And I instilling that kind of confidence is is also important. Right. And when we is is also important. Right. And when we is is also important. Right. And when we think about preparing our people to think about preparing our people to think about preparing our people to suffer, we have to understand that that suffer, we have to understand that that suffer, we have to understand that that some of our people are thinking about some of our people are thinking about some of our people are thinking about suffering, perhaps even struggling with suffering, perhaps even struggling with suffering, perhaps even struggling with doubts about God on kind of an doubts about God on kind of an doubts about God on kind of an intellectual level. intellectual level. intellectual level. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And of course, there are others locked >> And of course, there are others locked >> And of course, there are others locked in the throws of pain who are just in the throws of pain who are just in the throws of pain who are just crying out, "How long, oh Lord?" crying out, "How long, oh Lord?" crying out, "How long, oh Lord?" For those who are uh doubting the For those who are uh doubting the For those who are uh doubting the goodness of God more intellectually, I goodness of God more intellectually, I goodness of God more intellectually, I do think it's worth asking them uh do think it's worth asking them uh do think it's worth asking them uh questions like so so you're saying are questions like so so you're saying are questions like so so you're saying are you saying that just because you can't you saying that just because you can't you saying that just because you can't think of a good reason think of a good reason think of a good reason >> why God would allow this that there >> why God would allow this that there >> why God would allow this that there can't be one, can't be one, can't be one, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Of course the person's going to >> Of course the person's going to >> Of course the person's going to backpedal and say, "Well, well, of backpedal and say, "Well, well, of backpedal and say, "Well, well, of course that's what I mean, course that's what I mean, course that's what I mean, >> but not what I mean." But then we say, >> but not what I mean." But then we say, >> but not what I mean." But then we say, "Okay, well, by definition, if he's God, "Okay, well, by definition, if he's God, "Okay, well, by definition, if he's God, then there are going to be things that then there are going to be things that then there are going to be things that fit into his mind that don't fit into fit into his mind that don't fit into fit into his mind that don't fit into ours." But here's how here's where you ours." But here's how here's where you ours." But here's how here's where you can have hope. Even if, and this is can have hope. Even if, and this is can have hope. Even if, and this is where, you know, this bleeds into where, you know, this bleeds into where, you know, this bleeds into talking to the person who's who's talking to the person who's who's talking to the person who's who's actually in pain. We can say to them, actually in pain. We can say to them, actually in pain. We can say to them, you know, I I may not know the reason you know, I I may not know the reason you know, I I may not know the reason for your suffering, right? You may not for your suffering, right? You may not for your suffering, right? You may not know the reason for your suffering in know the reason for your suffering in know the reason for your suffering in this life, but we can know for sure why. this life, but we can know for sure why. this life, but we can know for sure why. What the reason is not. The reason is What the reason is not. The reason is What the reason is not. The reason is not that God doesn't love you. not that God doesn't love you. not that God doesn't love you. >> And how do we know that? >> And how do we know that? >> And how do we know that? >> Because he sent his only begotten son to >> Because he sent his only begotten son to >> Because he sent his only begotten son to plunge himself into our pain to identify plunge himself into our pain to identify plunge himself into our pain to identify with us to the point of being forsaken with us to the point of being forsaken with us to the point of being forsaken on a Roman cross. No other god in any on a Roman cross. No other god in any on a Roman cross. No other god in any other religion, philosophy, or worldview other religion, philosophy, or worldview other religion, philosophy, or worldview is like that. Only the Christian God in is like that. Only the Christian God in is like that. Only the Christian God in Christ has scars. And that's ultimately Christ has scars. And that's ultimately Christ has scars. And that's ultimately um the hope we hold out for our people. um the hope we hold out for our people. um the hope we hold out for our people. So league thinking again just pastorally So league thinking again just pastorally So league thinking again just pastorally about preparing people to suffer. What about preparing people to suffer. What about preparing people to suffer. What are some categories are some categories are some categories um that you would encourage pastors to um that you would encourage pastors to um that you would encourage pastors to regularly teach on? We've already we've regularly teach on? We've already we've regularly teach on? We've already we've already referenced say the fallenness of already referenced say the fallenness of already referenced say the fallenness of this world and the the suffering that this world and the the suffering that this world and the the suffering that comes with that, but are there other comes with that, but are there other comes with that, but are there other kind of building blocks that you'd want kind of building blocks that you'd want kind of building blocks that you'd want to establish so that someone can be to establish so that someone can be to establish so that someone can be prepared for pain? One is just prepared for pain? One is just prepared for pain? One is just providence in suffering. That is the providence in suffering. That is the providence in suffering. That is the idea that that God's watch care does not

idea that that God's watch care does not idea that that God's watch care does not just extend to the good things in our just extend to the good things in our just extend to the good things in our life. It extends to the worst things in life. It extends to the worst things in life. It extends to the worst things in our life. Genesis 50:20 is the classic our life. Genesis 50:20 is the classic our life. Genesis 50:20 is the classic example of that. Joseph, his brothers example of that. Joseph, his brothers example of that. Joseph, his brothers have hated him since he was a teenager. have hated him since he was a teenager. have hated him since he was a teenager. They planned to kill him but ended up They planned to kill him but ended up They planned to kill him but ended up selling him into slavery. Eventually, he selling him into slavery. Eventually, he selling him into slavery. Eventually, he and his brothers are united and they and his brothers are united and they and his brothers are united and they feel very guilty about what they've feel very guilty about what they've feel very guilty about what they've done. And they feel like, "Oh, he's done. And they feel like, "Oh, he's done. And they feel like, "Oh, he's going to he's going to take his shot at going to he's going to take his shot at going to he's going to take his shot at us. He's going to get back at us for us. He's going to get back at us for us. He's going to get back at us for doing this." And he famously says, doing this." And he famously says, doing this." And he famously says, "You meant this for evil. I know you you "You meant this for evil. I know you you "You meant this for evil. I know you you know your plans against me, they were know your plans against me, they were know your plans against me, they were evil, but God meant it for good." And evil, but God meant it for good." And evil, but God meant it for good." And let me just interrupt you for one one let me just interrupt you for one one let me just interrupt you for one one moment. moment. moment. I think so many evangelicals in our I think so many evangelicals in our I think so many evangelicals in our churches read that verse as if it says churches read that verse as if it says churches read that verse as if it says you meant it for evil, you meant it for evil, you meant it for evil, >> but God used it for good. >> but God used it for good. >> but God used it for good. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> It's a stronger word than used. >> It's a stronger word than used. >> It's a stronger word than used. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's you meant it for evil and with as >> It's you meant it for evil and with as >> It's you meant it for evil and with as much intention as you meant it for evil.

much intention as you meant it for evil. much intention as you meant it for evil. He intended it. He meant it for good. He intended it. He meant it for good. He intended it. He meant it for good. >> Good point to highlight and that's >> Good point to highlight and that's >> Good point to highlight and that's that's what I do want to get across to that's what I do want to get across to that's what I do want to get across to people that these things are not just people that these things are not just people that these things are not just allowed. allowed. allowed. there that God doesn't just let them there that God doesn't just let them there that God doesn't just let them happen. He has purposes for good even in happen. He has purposes for good even in happen. He has purposes for good even in human beings purposes for evil uh for human beings purposes for evil uh for human beings purposes for evil uh for his people. And that's look that is a his people. And that's look that is a his people. And that's look that is a category that a lot of our people have category that a lot of our people have category that a lot of our people have to face. They we will have plenty of to face. They we will have plenty of to face. They we will have plenty of people in our churches who have been the people in our churches who have been the people in our churches who have been the victims of human evil. And one thing I victims of human evil. And one thing I victims of human evil. And one thing I want them to realize is that they are want them to realize is that they are want them to realize is that they are never just a victim. Mhm. never just a victim. Mhm. never just a victim. Mhm. >> Uh that that they that there is a >> Uh that that they that there is a >> Uh that that they that there is a powerful loving heavenly father who will powerful loving heavenly father who will powerful loving heavenly father who will demand that everything in this life demand that everything in this life demand that everything in this life eventually serve their best interests. eventually serve their best interests. eventually serve their best interests. And I may not know it. Just like you And I may not know it. Just like you And I may not know it. Just like you were saying a few minutes ago, we as a were saying a few minutes ago, we as a were saying a few minutes ago, we as a pastor, I don't know all the reasons why pastor, I don't know all the reasons why pastor, I don't know all the reasons why God is doing what he's doing. And I'm God is doing what he's doing. And I'm God is doing what he's doing. And I'm never going to claim that in the life of never going to claim that in the life of never going to claim that in the life of a believer. But all of us need to a believer. But all of us need to a believer. But all of us need to believe and because the Bible tells us believe and because the Bible tells us believe and because the Bible tells us to believe it that God is at work even to believe it that God is at work even to believe it that God is at work even in those things. And that's that is just in those things. And that's that is just in those things. And that's that is just something that happens over and over in something that happens over and over in something that happens over and over in the Bible. Think of Job. God says to the Bible. Think of Job. God says to the Bible. Think of Job. God says to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Satan, "Have you considered my servant Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job?" Satan does not come to God and Job?" Satan does not come to God and Job?" Satan does not come to God and say, "Hey, I'd like a crack at Job." Um, say, "Hey, I'd like a crack at Job." Um, say, "Hey, I'd like a crack at Job." Um, and so over and over in the Bible, God's and so over and over in the Bible, God's and so over and over in the Bible, God's providence extends even to the pain and

providence extends even to the pain and providence extends even to the pain and suffering that we experience. And he has suffering that we experience. And he has suffering that we experience. And he has purposes, you know, and and Job, you purposes, you know, and and Job, you purposes, you know, and and Job, you know, Job may never have known the know, Job may never have known the know, Job may never have known the things that we know about how that story things that we know about how that story things that we know about how that story played out, but he does say at the end played out, but he does say at the end played out, but he does say at the end of the book, I had heard of you, but now of the book, I had heard of you, but now of the book, I had heard of you, but now I've seen you. And so he could he might I've seen you. And so he could he might I've seen you. And so he could he might not have known the things that we know not have known the things that we know not have known the things that we know because we read the book, but if we had because we read the book, but if we had because we read the book, but if we had been with him at the end, he could have been with him at the end, he could have been with him at the end, he could have said, "Matt, I thought I knew the living said, "Matt, I thought I knew the living said, "Matt, I thought I knew the living God. God. God. I had never seen how glorious he was I had never seen how glorious he was I had never seen how glorious he was until I went through what I went until I went through what I went until I went through what I went through." And I've had that testimony through." And I've had that testimony through." And I've had that testimony from so many Christians who've gone from so many Christians who've gone from so many Christians who've gone through awful things and they've been through awful things and they've been through awful things and they've been able to say to me humbly, not not in a able to say to me humbly, not not in a able to say to me humbly, not not in a spirit of arrogance, spirit of arrogance, spirit of arrogance, I had no idea who God was until I went I had no idea who God was until I went I had no idea who God was until I went through that. And now I know. I know through that. And now I know. I know through that. And now I know. I know because he was there with me. He because he was there with me. He because he was there with me. He revealed himself to me. I know that he revealed himself to me. I know that he revealed himself to me. I know that he loves me. Mhm. loves me. Mhm. loves me. Mhm. >> I wouldn't have chosen that in a million >> I wouldn't have chosen that in a million >> I wouldn't have chosen that in a million different worlds. But now, I wouldn't different worlds. But now, I wouldn't different worlds. But now, I wouldn't trade it for anything.

trade it for anything. trade it for anything. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Because I have known and seen the living >> Because I have known and seen the living >> Because I have known and seen the living God in a way that I had never known him God in a way that I had never known him God in a way that I had never known him before. And I've I've I've just had too before. And I've I've I've just had too before. And I've I've I've just had too many people give me that testimony in many people give me that testimony in many people give me that testimony in life. And it's, you know, you always life. And it's, you know, you always life. And it's, you know, you always feel like you're on holy ground when feel like you're on holy ground when feel like you're on holy ground when somebody is sharing something like that. somebody is sharing something like that. somebody is sharing something like that. And as a pastor, I want more of my And as a pastor, I want more of my And as a pastor, I want more of my congregation to experience that than congregation to experience that than congregation to experience that than than less. than less. than less. >> Yeah. And the story of Job, what an >> Yeah. And the story of Job, what an >> Yeah. And the story of Job, what an opportunity to remind our people that we opportunity to remind our people that we opportunity to remind our people that we see more than Job could because we know see more than Job could because we know see more than Job could because we know the ultimate innocent sufferer. the ultimate innocent sufferer. the ultimate innocent sufferer. >> As has been said, you know, why do good >> As has been said, you know, why do good >> As has been said, you know, why do good things happen to bad people? That only things happen to bad people? That only things happen to bad people? That only happened once and he volunteered. Yeah. happened once and he volunteered. Yeah. happened once and he volunteered. Yeah. >> And because we can know and be united to >> And because we can know and be united to >> And because we can know and be united to Jesus Christ, we can have that that Jesus Christ, we can have that that Jesus Christ, we can have that that confidence that even the pain in this confidence that even the pain in this confidence that even the pain in this life is like a furnace that will either life is like a furnace that will either life is like a furnace that will either depending on how we depending on how we depending on how we >> approach the suffering, a furnace can >> approach the suffering, a furnace can >> approach the suffering, a furnace can either burn you to a crisp either burn you to a crisp either burn you to a crisp >> or it can refine you like gold. And >> or it can refine you like gold. And >> or it can refine you like gold. And Christ's purpose is to bring us through Christ's purpose is to bring us through Christ's purpose is to bring us through that furnace and not to abandon us in that furnace and not to abandon us in that furnace and not to abandon us in the flames. You know, he the flames will the flames. You know, he the flames will the flames. You know, he the flames will not set you ablaze, Isaiah says.

not set you ablaze, Isaiah says. not set you ablaze, Isaiah says. >> So there there's a sense in which >> So there there's a sense in which >> So there there's a sense in which >> we're in the heat, but the heat is not >> we're in the heat, but the heat is not >> we're in the heat, but the heat is not in us. Meaning in us. Meaning in us. Meaning >> it it can't incinerate our love for God >> it it can't incinerate our love for God >> it it can't incinerate our love for God and his commitment to our good. Um, and and his commitment to our good. Um, and and his commitment to our good. Um, and as we think about pastoring our people as we think about pastoring our people as we think about pastoring our people on Sundays, of course, not only can we on Sundays, of course, not only can we on Sundays, of course, not only can we prepare them for suffering through our prepare them for suffering through our prepare them for suffering through our preaching, but also through our songs. preaching, but also through our songs. preaching, but also through our songs. Uh, we've talked about this on in a Uh, we've talked about this on in a Uh, we've talked about this on in a previous episode, but previous episode, but previous episode, but >> you know, what a wonderful way to >> you know, what a wonderful way to >> you know, what a wonderful way to disciple our people. disciple our people. disciple our people. >> You just made when you started making >> You just made when you started making >> You just made when you started making that point, immediately how firm a that point, immediately how firm a that point, immediately how firm a foundation popped into my mind in the foundation popped into my mind in the foundation popped into my mind in the little line, "The flame shall not hurt little line, "The flame shall not hurt little line, "The flame shall not hurt thee. I only design thy dross to thee. I only design thy dross to thee. I only design thy dross to consume, thy gold to refine. And so much consume, thy gold to refine. And so much consume, thy gold to refine. And so much of our himnity, the great songs of the of our himnity, the great songs of the of our himnity, the great songs of the faith is meant to speak to us in those faith is meant to speak to us in those faith is meant to speak to us in those moments. Even when we're singing the moments. Even when we're singing the moments. Even when we're singing the power of the cross or uh in Christ power of the cross or uh in Christ power of the cross or uh in Christ alone, as we think about the sufferings alone, as we think about the sufferings alone, as we think about the sufferings of Christ, we see our suffering in light of Christ, we see our suffering in light of Christ, we see our suffering in light of the providence of God in his of the providence of God in his of the providence of God in his suffering. So the you were right, the um suffering. So the you were right, the um suffering. So the you were right, the um the the treasure that we have in the the the treasure that we have in the the the treasure that we have in the great songs of the church speak to us in great songs of the church speak to us in great songs of the church speak to us in this area. And as pastors, we want to this area. And as pastors, we want to this area. And as pastors, we want to make sure that we're singing some of make sure that we're singing some of make sure that we're singing some of that material. Not just not just songs that material. Not just not just songs that material. Not just not just songs of of of praise to God.

of of of praise to God. of of of praise to God. >> Happy clappy chippers, >> Happy clappy chippers, >> Happy clappy chippers, >> but what how do where where do you go >> but what how do where where do you go >> but what how do where where do you go when the world is burning down? Where do when the world is burning down? Where do when the world is burning down? Where do you go when you're in the pit? Where do you go when you're in the pit? Where do you go when you're in the pit? Where do you go when you're in the fire? We've you go when you're in the fire? We've you go when you're in the fire? We've got to have some of that material in the got to have some of that material in the got to have some of that material in the sung praise of the church. Well, we have sung praise of the church. Well, we have sung praise of the church. Well, we have it in the psalter. it in the psalter. it in the psalter. >> We did. >> We did. >> We did. >> And there there there's so many >> And there there there's so many >> And there there there's so many wonderful songs that can be sung wonderful songs that can be sung wonderful songs that can be sung congregationally that are in a more congregationally that are in a more congregationally that are in a more minor key. Um, in fact, this past Sunday minor key. Um, in fact, this past Sunday minor key. Um, in fact, this past Sunday in our church, we sang When Trials Come, in our church, we sang When Trials Come, in our church, we sang When Trials Come, we sang uh Dear Refuge of My Weary Soul, we sang uh Dear Refuge of My Weary Soul, we sang uh Dear Refuge of My Weary Soul, afflicted saint to Christ draw near. afflicted saint to Christ draw near. afflicted saint to Christ draw near. Sadly, these songs are not as wellknown Sadly, these songs are not as wellknown Sadly, these songs are not as wellknown as they should be, as they should be, as they should be, >> but they give voice. They give language >> but they give voice. They give language >> but they give voice. They give language to our lament in a way that I think to our lament in a way that I think to our lament in a way that I think disciples our people to suffer. disciples our people to suffer. disciples our people to suffer. >> That's very good. >> That's very good. >> That's very good. >> Is there anything else you would want to >> Is there anything else you would want to >> Is there anything else you would want to commend to pastors as they as they think commend to pastors as they as they think commend to pastors as they as they think about practical ways to prepare their about practical ways to prepare their about practical ways to prepare their people to face tribulation? people to face tribulation? people to face tribulation? >> Well, one is when you're working if >> Well, one is when you're working if >> Well, one is when you're working if you're preaching through Bible books, you're preaching through Bible books, you're preaching through Bible books, never miss the opportunity to make one never miss the opportunity to make one never miss the opportunity to make one of the applications. When you come of the applications. When you come of the applications. When you come across the many texts in scripture that across the many texts in scripture that across the many texts in scripture that deal with suffering, make sure to relate deal with suffering, make sure to relate deal with suffering, make sure to relate that in application to your people, that in application to your people, that in application to your people, remind them again. Notice notice the remind them again. Notice notice the remind them again. Notice notice the suffering in this passage. Paul in suffering in this passage. Paul in suffering in this passage. Paul in Romans 8 is talking about the suffering Romans 8 is talking about the suffering Romans 8 is talking about the suffering and the groaning of the sons of God. And and the groaning of the sons of God. And and the groaning of the sons of God. And um and and the witness of the Holy um and and the witness of the Holy um and and the witness of the Holy Spirit even in that. And so don't miss Spirit even in that. And so don't miss Spirit even in that. And so don't miss the opportunity to remind your people.

the opportunity to remind your people. the opportunity to remind your people. Again, remember I've told you Again, remember I've told you Again, remember I've told you suffering's coming for all of us. uh but suffering's coming for all of us. uh but suffering's coming for all of us. uh but when it does we see the purposes of God when it does we see the purposes of God when it does we see the purposes of God and uh so when you're preaching through and uh so when you're preaching through and uh so when you're preaching through Bible text don't miss the opportunity to Bible text don't miss the opportunity to Bible text don't miss the opportunity to make the applications about suffering in make the applications about suffering in make the applications about suffering in the Christian life do some teaching on the Christian life do some teaching on the Christian life do some teaching on the theme I mean there there have been the theme I mean there there have been the theme I mean there there have been some wonderful books written on some wonderful books written on some wonderful books written on Christian suffering in the last 30 or 40 Christian suffering in the last 30 or 40 Christian suffering in the last 30 or 40 years everybody from Johnny Ericson years everybody from Johnny Ericson years everybody from Johnny Ericson Tatada to Mark Talbot to John Piper I Tatada to Mark Talbot to John Piper I Tatada to Mark Talbot to John Piper I mean I I've lost count of the good books mean I I've lost count of the good books mean I I've lost count of the good books books that have come out about books that have come out about books that have come out about suffering. We really have been blessed suffering. We really have been blessed suffering. We really have been blessed in our lifetime with some really good in our lifetime with some really good in our lifetime with some really good theological reflection on suffering. The theological reflection on suffering. The theological reflection on suffering. The you the other thing too is um teaching you the other thing too is um teaching you the other thing too is um teaching people people people what kinds of struggles they are going what kinds of struggles they are going what kinds of struggles they are going to have because of suffering. to have because of suffering. to have because of suffering. uh the the the human heart responds in uh the the the human heart responds in uh the the the human heart responds in different ways to experiences of trial different ways to experiences of trial different ways to experiences of trial and trouble and suffering and so to make and trouble and suffering and so to make and trouble and suffering and so to make them aware of the kinds of things some them aware of the kinds of things some them aware of the kinds of things some sometimes people initially will do sometimes people initially will do sometimes people initially will do pretty well pretty well pretty well >> and then they'll go through stages of >> and then they'll go through stages of >> and then they'll go through stages of confusion confusion confusion >> anger >> anger >> anger um you know inconsolable grief etc it um you know inconsolable grief etc it um you know inconsolable grief etc it helped them to be prepared for the helped them to be prepared for the helped them to be prepared for the normal process processes of of and don't normal process processes of of and don't normal process processes of of and don't be surprised when you feel like this.

be surprised when you feel like this. be surprised when you feel like this. Don't be s you're not alone when you Don't be s you're not alone when you Don't be s you're not alone when you feel like that. That's a very common feel like that. That's a very common feel like that. That's a very common thing for human beings to feel like thing for human beings to feel like thing for human beings to feel like that. But let's always be in the mode of that. But let's always be in the mode of that. But let's always be in the mode of turning that back to God and thinking turning that back to God and thinking turning that back to God and thinking about that in light of God. So I think about that in light of God. So I think about that in light of God. So I think just preparing people for the experience just preparing people for the experience just preparing people for the experience that they're going to have. I had um a that they're going to have. I had um a that they're going to have. I had um a young woman in my congregation whose dad young woman in my congregation whose dad young woman in my congregation whose dad died of brain cancer when she was a died of brain cancer when she was a died of brain cancer when she was a teenager and she initially did really teenager and she initially did really teenager and she initially did really well with it. But during college, she well with it. But during college, she well with it. But during college, she significantly struggled with it. And I significantly struggled with it. And I significantly struggled with it. And I think if I could have done anything think if I could have done anything think if I could have done anything differently, Matt, I might have said, differently, Matt, I might have said, differently, Matt, I might have said, Kathy, boy, I mean, you the the way you Kathy, boy, I mean, you the the way you Kathy, boy, I mean, you the the way you have responded to this has ministered to have responded to this has ministered to have responded to this has ministered to me. You've handled this in ways that I me. You've handled this in ways that I me. You've handled this in ways that I couldn't have handled it. But if you couldn't have handled it. But if you couldn't have handled it. But if you find if you find this coming back and find if you find this coming back and find if you find this coming back and getting you, biting you, troubling you getting you, biting you, troubling you getting you, biting you, troubling you later on, don't be surprised if that later on, don't be surprised if that later on, don't be surprised if that experience comes. And and when it comes, experience comes. And and when it comes, experience comes. And and when it comes, remember that I told you that it was remember that I told you that it was remember that I told you that it was going to come. And you know, don't don't going to come. And you know, don't don't going to come. And you know, don't don't let the surprise of the delayed reaction let the surprise of the delayed reaction let the surprise of the delayed reaction get you because sometimes you're the get you because sometimes you're the get you because sometimes you're the adrenaline can get you through things adrenaline can get you through things adrenaline can get you through things and then you get through the adrenaline and then you get through the adrenaline and then you get through the adrenaline of things and it's just the grind of of things and it's just the grind of of things and it's just the grind of things that keeps you going. You know, things that keeps you going. You know, things that keeps you going. You know, things have to be done. I'm going to do things have to be done. I'm going to do things have to be done. I'm going to do the next thing. And then suddenly you the next thing. And then suddenly you the next thing. And then suddenly you find yourself in a in a place where find yourself in a in a place where find yourself in a in a place where you've gone through the initial shock.

you've gone through the initial shock. you've gone through the initial shock. You've gotten through that trusting God. You've gotten through that trusting God. You've gotten through that trusting God. The adrenaline has kept you going. The The adrenaline has kept you going. The The adrenaline has kept you going. The grind has kept you going. and now you grind has kept you going. and now you grind has kept you going. and now you are thinking about it and you're really are thinking about it and you're really are thinking about it and you're really letting yourself thinking about it for letting yourself thinking about it for letting yourself thinking about it for the first time and now you're troubled the first time and now you're troubled the first time and now you're troubled by things that you had never been by things that you had never been by things that you had never been troubled about before. So if we can troubled about before. So if we can troubled about before. So if we can prepare people there are phases to this. prepare people there are phases to this. prepare people there are phases to this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And uh don't be surprised when those >> And uh don't be surprised when those >> And uh don't be surprised when those phases come. phases come. phases come. >> I love how you pointed out that that >> I love how you pointed out that that >> I love how you pointed out that that journey which is often going to feel journey which is often going to feel journey which is often going to feel like a roller coaster. You're not just like a roller coaster. You're not just like a roller coaster. You're not just going to get over the pain or the going to get over the pain or the going to get over the pain or the sadness and move on forever. Um, and sadness and move on forever. Um, and sadness and move on forever. Um, and just the other day I was sitting with a just the other day I was sitting with a just the other day I was sitting with a church member who was brokenhearted and church member who was brokenhearted and church member who was brokenhearted and the the spirit just kind of prompted me the the spirit just kind of prompted me the the spirit just kind of prompted me to to turn to Psalm 40, which I just to to turn to Psalm 40, which I just to to turn to Psalm 40, which I just read uh for for this member. And it it's read uh for for this member. And it it's read uh for for this member. And it it's a very interesting journey because David a very interesting journey because David a very interesting journey because David begins by saying, "I waited patiently begins by saying, "I waited patiently begins by saying, "I waited patiently for the Lord. He inclined to me and for the Lord. He inclined to me and for the Lord. He inclined to me and heard my cry. He drew me up from the pit heard my cry. He drew me up from the pit heard my cry. He drew me up from the pit of destruction, out of the miry bog, and of destruction, out of the miry bog, and of destruction, out of the miry bog, and set my feet upon a rock, making my steps set my feet upon a rock, making my steps set my feet upon a rock, making my steps secure. Now listen to how triumphant it secure. Now listen to how triumphant it secure. Now listen to how triumphant it starts to sound. He put a new song in my starts to sound. He put a new song in my starts to sound. He put a new song in my mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many mouth, a song of praise to our God. Many will see in fear and put their trust in will see in fear and put their trust in will see in fear and put their trust in the Lord. And you'd almost expect the the Lord. And you'd almost expect the the Lord. And you'd almost expect the next words to be, "Amen and amen. Go in next words to be, "Amen and amen. Go in next words to be, "Amen and amen. Go in peace."

peace." peace." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But as you make your way through the >> But as you make your way through the >> But as you make your way through the psalm, you see that he's up and down. psalm, you see that he's up and down. psalm, you see that he's up and down. And guess how he ends? And guess how he ends? And guess how he ends? Final words. As for me, I am poor and Final words. As for me, I am poor and Final words. As for me, I am poor and needy, but the Lord takes thought for needy, but the Lord takes thought for needy, but the Lord takes thought for me. You are my help and my deliverer. Do me. You are my help and my deliverer. Do me. You are my help and my deliverer. Do not delay, oh my God. So, even there at not delay, oh my God. So, even there at not delay, oh my God. So, even there at the end, he's still needing the end, he's still needing the end, he's still needing >> God to show up and carry him along. And >> God to show up and carry him along. And >> God to show up and carry him along. And I know you've taught a lot on Psalm 88, I know you've taught a lot on Psalm 88, I know you've taught a lot on Psalm 88, and you've even written a book. Uh, and you've even written a book. Uh, and you've even written a book. Uh, yeah. What's the title? yeah. What's the title? yeah. What's the title? >> Well, Sam Amati helped me put that >> Well, Sam Amati helped me put that >> Well, Sam Amati helped me put that together. You and I were talking about together. You and I were talking about together. You and I were talking about Sam the other day and uh it's um I I Sam the other day and uh it's um I I Sam the other day and uh it's um I I sometimes struggle with the title sometimes struggle with the title sometimes struggle with the title because Justin and the guys at Crossway because Justin and the guys at Crossway because Justin and the guys at Crossway came up with the title. I didn't come up came up with the title. I didn't come up came up with the title. I didn't come up with the title. Mark De had thought up with the title. Mark De had thought up with the title. Mark De had thought up the title God in Hard Places. But they the title God in Hard Places. But they the title God in Hard Places. But they ended up calling it um when pain is real ended up calling it um when pain is real ended up calling it um when pain is real and God seems silent. And it's on Psalm and God seems silent. And it's on Psalm and God seems silent. And it's on Psalm 88. 88. 88. >> Finding hope in the Psalms. >> Finding hope in the Psalms. >> Finding hope in the Psalms. >> Yeah. And it's and that you're right >> Yeah. And it's and that you're right >> Yeah. And it's and that you're right that happens in the psalm all the time. that happens in the psalm all the time. that happens in the psalm all the time. That does also remind me that you as That does also remind me that you as That does also remind me that you as pastors, you can't put your people on a pastors, you can't put your people on a pastors, you can't put your people on a clock.

clock. clock. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> That, you know, they, you know, >> That, you know, they, you know, >> That, you know, they, you know, everybody's going to have their own way everybody's going to have their own way everybody's going to have their own way of processing stuff. of processing stuff. of processing stuff. >> And we can't get in the mode of our, you >> And we can't get in the mode of our, you >> And we can't get in the mode of our, you know, of Job's comforters. Come on, know, of Job's comforters. Come on, know, of Job's comforters. Come on, buddy. You know, come on, hurry up. You buddy. You know, come on, hurry up. You buddy. You know, come on, hurry up. You know, we've been here with you for seven know, we've been here with you for seven know, we've been here with you for seven days saying nothing in sackcloth and days saying nothing in sackcloth and days saying nothing in sackcloth and ashes. Come on. Let's let's let's get on ashes. Come on. Let's let's let's get on ashes. Come on. Let's let's let's get on with it. You just can't put people on a with it. You just can't put people on a with it. You just can't put people on a clock. And some people are going to clock. And some people are going to clock. And some people are going to suffer in different ways and it's going suffer in different ways and it's going suffer in different ways and it's going to take them a long time. And as to take them a long time. And as to take them a long time. And as pastors, just be there. Be there with pastors, just be there. Be there with pastors, just be there. Be there with them. Um, as as long as as you feel like them. Um, as as long as as you feel like them. Um, as as long as as you feel like they're able to dig their nails in and they're able to dig their nails in and they're able to dig their nails in and hang on, that's a victory. hang on, that's a victory. hang on, that's a victory. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> That that's that's I mean I they may >> That that's that's I mean I they may >> That that's that's I mean I they may feel discouraged, but when I have feel discouraged, but when I have feel discouraged, but when I have somebody come in and they're just somebody come in and they're just somebody come in and they're just hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, thank hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, thank hanging on, I'm thinking, Lord, thank you that they're just hanging on. You you that they're just hanging on. You you that they're just hanging on. You know, that's that's you that they're know, that's that's you that they're know, that's that's you that they're just hanging on. victorious Christian just hanging on. victorious Christian just hanging on. victorious Christian life. life. life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. >> That is the victorious Christian life. You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They You know, they're hanging on, Lord. They have not turned their back on you. have not turned their back on you. have not turned their back on you. They've not given up. They still want to They've not given up. They still want to They've not given up. They still want to trust you. They still want to feel whole trust you. They still want to feel whole trust you. They still want to feel whole again. They're not there yet, but they again. They're not there yet, but they again. They're not there yet, but they hadn't given up. Praise God that that is hadn't given up. Praise God that that is hadn't given up. Praise God that that is the case. So, you know, as pastors, I the case. So, you know, as pastors, I the case. So, you know, as pastors, I think we get impatient. You know, there think we get impatient. You know, there think we get impatient. You know, there there's some of our members that move there's some of our members that move there's some of our members that move quicker in those processes and are are quicker in those processes and are are quicker in those processes and are are more fully restored through them and more fully restored through them and more fully restored through them and others that just, you know, it just it's others that just, you know, it just it's others that just, you know, it just it's it's it's like a, you know, it's like it's it's like a, you know, it's like it's it's like a, you know, it's like the, you know, the black dog of of the, you know, the black dog of of the, you know, the black dog of of depression kind of gets on their back depression kind of gets on their back depression kind of gets on their back and they they can't they can't let go.

and they they can't they can't let go. and they they can't they can't let go. Just be patient because everybody's Just be patient because everybody's Just be patient because everybody's different. And and one thing I sometimes different. And and one thing I sometimes different. And and one thing I sometimes remind my church members of is that remind my church members of is that remind my church members of is that Jesus promised shortly before he, you Jesus promised shortly before he, you Jesus promised shortly before he, you know, died and rose and ascended know, died and rose and ascended know, died and rose and ascended >> that he would send the Holy Spirit. And >> that he would send the Holy Spirit. And >> that he would send the Holy Spirit. And of all the terms he could have used of all the terms he could have used of all the terms he could have used >> to describe the Holy Spirit, >> to describe the Holy Spirit, >> to describe the Holy Spirit, >> he described him as an advocate and as a >> he described him as an advocate and as a >> he described him as an advocate and as a comforter. comforter. comforter. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Which presupposes that we're going to >> Which presupposes that we're going to >> Which presupposes that we're going to need a lot of comforting. need a lot of comforting. need a lot of comforting. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> That that we are going to be in a world >> That that we are going to be in a world >> That that we are going to be in a world full of sadness and grief. And you think full of sadness and grief. And you think full of sadness and grief. And you think about that vision at the end of about that vision at the end of about that vision at the end of Revelation of of God himself wiping Revelation of of God himself wiping Revelation of of God himself wiping every tear from our eyes. And oh, how every tear from our eyes. And oh, how every tear from our eyes. And oh, how many there will be to wipe away. many there will be to wipe away. many there will be to wipe away. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> But what a privilege we have as pastors >> But what a privilege we have as pastors >> But what a privilege we have as pastors to prepare our people for that great day to prepare our people for that great day to prepare our people for that great day when all of their pain, all of their when all of their pain, all of their when all of their pain, all of their sadness, all of their suffering will be sadness, all of their suffering will be sadness, all of their suffering will be swallowed up in resurrection joy. swallowed up in resurrection joy. swallowed up in resurrection joy. >> It's true. We hope this episode of the >> It's true. We hope this episode of the >> It's true. We hope this episode of the Everyday Pastor has been encouraging to Everyday Pastor has been encouraging to Everyday Pastor has been encouraging to you if you're going through suffering you if you're going through suffering you if you're going through suffering and certainly as you pastor others who and certainly as you pastor others who and certainly as you pastor others who are going through suffering themselves are going through suffering themselves are going through suffering themselves in this fallen world. Please take a in this fallen world. Please take a in this fallen world. Please take a moment to leave a review so we can help moment to leave a review so we can help moment to leave a review so we can help other pastors find fresh joy in the work other pastors find fresh joy in the work other pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.

of ministry. of ministry. [Music]