Why We Can Trust the Resurrection (with Mike Kruger) [The Deep Dish - Ep. 33]

What's forgotten in a lot of discussions What's forgotten in a lot of discussions about the resurrection is that Jesus about the resurrection is that Jesus about the resurrection is that Jesus actually predicted it. He He didn't just actually predicted it. He He didn't just actually predicted it. He He didn't just simply die and rise again. He said he simply die and rise again. He said he simply die and rise again. He said he would die and [music] rise again. And would die and [music] rise again. And would die and [music] rise again. And so, he said that he would die and rise so, he said that he would die and rise so, he said that he would die and rise again for sinners and for sins and that again for sinners and for sins and that again for sinners and for sins and that he would be paying the penalty for us he would be paying the penalty for us he would be paying the penalty for us and that he would rise to life again. and that he would rise to life again. and that he would rise to life again. And [music] so, to say, "Well, I'm all And [music] so, to say, "Well, I'm all And [music] so, to say, "Well, I'm all about Jesus, but I'm not about the core about Jesus, but I'm not about the core about Jesus, but I'm not about the core prediction he made and I'm not about his prediction he made and I'm not about his prediction he made and I'm not about his core claims." would be very core claims." would be very core claims." would be very inconsistent. >> Welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from >> Welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition, where we love The Gospel Coalition, where we love The Gospel Coalition, where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. And I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm truths. And I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm truths. And I'm Courtney Doctor. I'm here with my friend and co-host Melissa here with my friend and co-host Melissa here with my friend and co-host Melissa Kruger and a very special guest that I Kruger and a very special guest that I Kruger and a very special guest that I am going to ask Melissa to introduce us am going to ask Melissa to introduce us am going to ask Melissa to introduce us to. Yes, I'm very excited about this to. Yes, I'm very excited about this to. Yes, I'm very excited about this episode. Um episode. Um episode. Um I'm going to introduce him first by his I'm going to introduce him first by his I'm going to introduce him first by his fancy title, which I had to type out fancy title, which I had to type out fancy title, which I had to type out because I can't remember it. His fancy because I can't remember it. His fancy because I can't remember it. His fancy title is Dr. Michael J. Kruger. He title is Dr. Michael J. Kruger. He title is Dr. Michael J. Kruger. He serves as the Samuel C. Patterson serves as the Samuel C. Patterson serves as the Samuel C. Patterson Chancellor's Professor of New Testament Chancellor's Professor of New Testament Chancellor's Professor of New Testament and Early Christianity at Reformed and Early Christianity at Reformed and Early Christianity at Reformed Theological Seminary.

Theological Seminary. Theological Seminary. That's his fancy title. Um the title The That's his fancy title. Um the title The That's his fancy title. Um the title The title that I'm glad he has is he's my title that I'm glad he has is he's my title that I'm glad he has is he's my husband and he is my kid My three kids' husband and he is my kid My three kids' husband and he is my kid My three kids' dad. And I think dad. And I think dad. And I think um um um those are the best titles he has and I'm those are the best titles he has and I'm those are the best titles he has and I'm really glad he has them. So, but we are really glad he has them. So, but we are really glad he has them. So, but we are not bringing him on here to talk about not bringing him on here to talk about not bringing him on here to talk about being a husband or a dad, but we are being a husband or a dad, but we are being a husband or a dad, but we are bringing him on here to talk um about bringing him on here to talk um about bringing him on here to talk um about the resurrection. We're We're going to the resurrection. We're We're going to the resurrection. We're We're going to release this episode a few weeks before release this episode a few weeks before release this episode a few weeks before Easter and we really hope that this Easter and we really hope that this Easter and we really hope that this episode can be one of those helpful episode can be one of those helpful episode can be one of those helpful times because we believe the times because we believe the times because we believe the resurrection is so important. I mean, resurrection is so important. I mean, resurrection is so important. I mean, it's the center of Christianity. And so, it's the center of Christianity. And so, it's the center of Christianity. And so, we [snorts] wanted to get on this call we [snorts] wanted to get on this call we [snorts] wanted to get on this call with Mike and have a time to really ask with Mike and have a time to really ask with Mike and have a time to really ask some questions about the resurrection some questions about the resurrection some questions about the resurrection because its validity because its validity because its validity is really the heart of everything we is really the heart of everything we is really the heart of everything we believe. And so we're hoping that that believe. And so we're hoping that that believe. And so we're hoping that that fancy title fancy title fancy title can give us some help as we go through can give us some help as we go through can give us some help as we go through these questions today. Yeah, well I want these questions today. Yeah, well I want these questions today. Yeah, well I want to start us off with just a really basic to start us off with just a really basic to start us off with just a really basic question.

question. question. Mike, we know that you believe in the Mike, we know that you believe in the Mike, we know that you believe in the bodily resurrection of Jesus. So that's bodily resurrection of Jesus. So that's bodily resurrection of Jesus. So that's what we're talking about, the bodily what we're talking about, the bodily what we're talking about, the bodily resurrection of Jesus. So can you just resurrection of Jesus. So can you just resurrection of Jesus. So can you just start off by explaining what that even start off by explaining what that even start off by explaining what that even means? Happy to, and before I do let me means? Happy to, and before I do let me means? Happy to, and before I do let me to say to say to say that my titles are very far too long and that my titles are very far too long and that my titles are very far too long and complicated, but I like the ones of dad complicated, but I like the ones of dad complicated, but I like the ones of dad and husband the best. And let me also and husband the best. And let me also and husband the best. And let me also say that I don't know that I've ever say that I don't know that I've ever say that I don't know that I've ever been on a show where Melissa has been on a show where Melissa has been on a show where Melissa has interviewed me. And Courtney, I don't interviewed me. And Courtney, I don't interviewed me. And Courtney, I don't think I've ever been interviewed think I've ever been interviewed think I've ever been interviewed interviewed by you either, but Melissa interviewed by you either, but Melissa interviewed by you either, but Melissa and I have been on podcast as the ones and I have been on podcast as the ones and I have been on podcast as the ones being interviewed, but now I get to be being interviewed, but now I get to be being interviewed, but now I get to be interviewed by her. So this is kind of a interviewed by her. So this is kind of a interviewed by her. So this is kind of a fun first time fun first time fun first time to be on the show. So that's great. You to be on the show. So that's great. You to be on the show. So that's great. You never know what she'll ask. never know what she'll ask. never know what she'll ask. >> I know. Well that's a little scary >> I know. Well that's a little scary >> I know. Well that's a little scary actually to come on the show with your actually to come on the show with your actually to come on the show with your own wife. own wife. own wife. She could surprise you. This has She could surprise you. This has She could surprise you. This has actually been like I I forgot to say we actually been like I I forgot to say we actually been like I I forgot to say we met about 35 years ago and honestly this met about 35 years ago and honestly this met about 35 years ago and honestly this what you're getting ready to hear is a what you're getting ready to hear is a what you're getting ready to hear is a lot of our entire relationship, which is lot of our entire relationship, which is lot of our entire relationship, which is me saying I hope that's not true. me saying I hope that's not true. me saying I hope that's not true. What about this? What about this? What about this? >> boring relationship. >> boring relationship. >> boring relationship. We we kind of do. I mean, but you know We we kind of do. I mean, but you know We we kind of do. I mean, but you know What?

What? What? Sweet. It's sweet. Sweet. It's sweet. Sweet. It's sweet. >> Sweetly boring. Y'all >> Sweetly boring. Y'all >> Sweetly boring. Y'all talk about things that matter. We're a talk about things that matter. We're a talk about things that matter. We're a little bookish. We're a little bookish. little bookish. We're a little bookish. little bookish. We're a little bookish. So So So Well we found each other in this world Well we found each other in this world Well we found each other in this world both bookish, so No, but I I'm excited both bookish, so No, but I I'm excited both bookish, so No, but I I'm excited to be on for this topic cuz obviously to be on for this topic cuz obviously to be on for this topic cuz obviously there's nothing more important in the in there's nothing more important in the in there's nothing more important in the in the Christian space than the belief in the Christian space than the belief in the Christian space than the belief in the resurrection. And as Courtney the resurrection. And as Courtney the resurrection. And as Courtney indicated, it is a bodily resurrection. indicated, it is a bodily resurrection. indicated, it is a bodily resurrection. This is a really core to the Christian This is a really core to the Christian This is a really core to the Christian worldview. worldview. worldview. There's lots of ideas that people have There's lots of ideas that people have There's lots of ideas that people have in other religious spaces and a lot of in other religious spaces and a lot of in other religious spaces and a lot of people have it in our culture today that people have it in our culture today that people have it in our culture today that of course when you die your spirit of course when you die your spirit of course when you die your spirit endures and lives on. And maybe when endures and lives on. And maybe when endures and lives on. And maybe when Christians believe that Jesus lives on Christians believe that Jesus lives on Christians believe that Jesus lives on that he lives on in spirit or he lives that he lives on in spirit or he lives that he lives on in spirit or he lives on in their hearts and is still around on in their hearts and is still around on in their hearts and is still around as a great example for them as a great example for them as a great example for them for how they should be and so on. Just for how they should be and so on. Just for how they should be and so on. Just like your parent or your friend or child like your parent or your friend or child like your parent or your friend or child dies and you feel like they're still dies and you feel like they're still dies and you feel like they're still with you in spirit and so on. But that's with you in spirit and so on. But that's with you in spirit and so on. But that's not the way Christian not the way Christian not the way Christian theology operated in the ancient world. theology operated in the ancient world. theology operated in the ancient world. It had a very physical dimension to it It had a very physical dimension to it It had a very physical dimension to it that the ancient world didn't have. And that the ancient world didn't have. And that the ancient world didn't have. And one of the things we often forget as one of the things we often forget as one of the things we often forget as Christians is that the ultimate hope is Christians is that the ultimate hope is Christians is that the ultimate hope is a future resurrected body for all of us a future resurrected body for all of us a future resurrected body for all of us where we will have bodies that are where we will have bodies that are where we will have bodies that are somewhat like our current bodies, but somewhat like our current bodies, but somewhat like our current bodies, but they'll be raised in an imperishable they'll be raised in an imperishable they'll be raised in an imperishable way. So, they're eternal bodies. They're way. So, they're eternal bodies. They're way. So, they're eternal bodies. They're bodies that cannot be destroyed or die bodies that cannot be destroyed or die bodies that cannot be destroyed or die ever again. And when Jesus was raised ever again. And when Jesus was raised ever again. And when Jesus was raised from the dead, he did not merely return from the dead, he did not merely return from the dead, he did not merely return to his original earthly body, but he got to his original earthly body, but he got to his original earthly body, but he got his resurrected body. And so, he's his resurrected body. And so, he's his resurrected body. And so, he's physical, yes, but in a new way that we physical, yes, but in a new way that we physical, yes, but in a new way that we won't experience someday until we're won't experience someday until we're won't experience someday until we're raised from the dead in new resurrected

raised from the dead in new resurrected raised from the dead in new resurrected bodies. So, the claim here is not merely bodies. So, the claim here is not merely bodies. So, the claim here is not merely that a man died and came back to life. that a man died and came back to life. that a man died and came back to life. You can find stories of that in You can find stories of that in You can find stories of that in hospitals. Someone died and we thought hospitals. Someone died and we thought hospitals. Someone died and we thought they were dead and maybe they even they were dead and maybe they even they were dead and maybe they even clinically died and they came back to clinically died and they came back to clinically died and they came back to life. Oh my gosh, wow. And maybe those life. Oh my gosh, wow. And maybe those life. Oh my gosh, wow. And maybe those were confusing instances, but what's were confusing instances, but what's were confusing instances, but what's different about Jesus is he didn't just different about Jesus is he didn't just different about Jesus is he didn't just come back in his original body. He came come back in his original body. He came come back in his original body. He came back in a new body, a body that he'll be back in a new body, a body that he'll be back in a new body, a body that he'll be with forever. And it's an example of the with forever. And it's an example of the with forever. And it's an example of the kind of body we'll get someday. Mike, kind of body we'll get someday. Mike, kind of body we'll get someday. Mike, that's so helpful. And and so that's so helpful. And and so that's so helpful. And and so encouraging, right, to set our hope on encouraging, right, to set our hope on encouraging, right, to set our hope on this this bodily resurrection because of this this bodily resurrection because of this this bodily resurrection because of Christ that that will be ours someday, Christ that that will be ours someday, Christ that that will be ours someday, too. But, you know, we're talking about too. But, you know, we're talking about too. But, you know, we're talking about why this even matters in the life of a why this even matters in the life of a why this even matters in the life of a Christian. So, what difference does it Christian. So, what difference does it Christian. So, what difference does it make if someone claims to be a make if someone claims to be a make if someone claims to be a Christian, but doubts the resurrection, Christian, but doubts the resurrection, Christian, but doubts the resurrection, the bodily historical resurrection of the bodily historical resurrection of the bodily historical resurrection of Christ? What difference does that make? Christ? What difference does that make? Christ? What difference does that make? Is that Can somebody be that person? Is that Can somebody be that person? Is that Can somebody be that person? Well, not really. If the term Christian Well, not really. If the term Christian Well, not really. If the term Christian has any sort of substance to it. has any sort of substance to it. has any sort of substance to it. And we throw the term Christian around And we throw the term Christian around And we throw the term Christian around very loosely in our modern world. And very loosely in our modern world. And very loosely in our modern world. And most people can say they're Christians most people can say they're Christians most people can say they're Christians and and they don't really understand the and and they don't really understand the and and they don't really understand the historical uh uh rootedness of the historical uh uh rootedness of the historical uh uh rootedness of the phrase and what it means. But, to be a phrase and what it means. But, to be a phrase and what it means. But, to be a Christian means to be a follower of Christian means to be a follower of Christian means to be a follower of Christ and to be a believer in Christ.

Christ and to be a believer in Christ. Christ and to be a believer in Christ. And if you're a follower of Christ and a And if you're a follower of Christ and a And if you're a follower of Christ and a believer in Christ, then you believe believer in Christ, then you believe believer in Christ, then you believe what Christ taught and what Christ said what Christ taught and what Christ said what Christ taught and what Christ said and what Christ is about. It'd be and what Christ is about. It'd be and what Christ is about. It'd be strange to say, "I'm a follower of strange to say, "I'm a follower of strange to say, "I'm a follower of Christ, but I think he was wrong most of Christ, but I think he was wrong most of Christ, but I think he was wrong most of the time." or something like this. If the time." or something like this. If the time." or something like this. If you're If you believe that, really you're If you believe that, really you're If you believe that, really you're just a follower of you, not you're just a follower of you, not you're just a follower of you, not really a follower of Christ. So, if really a follower of Christ. So, if really a follower of Christ. So, if you're a follower of Christ, you think you're a follower of Christ, you think you're a follower of Christ, you think that what he said really matters. And that what he said really matters. And that what he said really matters. And what's what's forgotten in a lot of what's what's forgotten in a lot of what's what's forgotten in a lot of discussions about the resurrection is discussions about the resurrection is discussions about the resurrection is that Jesus actually predicted it. He He that Jesus actually predicted it. He He that Jesus actually predicted it. He He didn't just simply die and rise again. didn't just simply die and rise again. didn't just simply die and rise again. He said he would die and rise again. And He said he would die and rise again. And He said he would die and rise again. And so, he said that he would die and rise so, he said that he would die and rise so, he said that he would die and rise again for sinners and for sins and that again for sinners and for sins and that again for sinners and for sins and that he would be paying the penalty for us he would be paying the penalty for us he would be paying the penalty for us and that he would rise to life again. and that he would rise to life again. and that he would rise to life again. And so, to say, "Well, I'm all about And so, to say, "Well, I'm all about And so, to say, "Well, I'm all about Jesus, but I'm not about the core Jesus, but I'm not about the core Jesus, but I'm not about the core prediction he made and I'm not about his prediction he made and I'm not about his prediction he made and I'm not about his core claims." would be very core claims." would be very core claims." would be very inconsistent. So, this is why the inconsistent. So, this is why the inconsistent. So, this is why the resurrection is central to what it means resurrection is central to what it means resurrection is central to what it means to be Christian. Um Christianity is to be Christian. Um Christianity is to be Christian. Um Christianity is marked as distinct by the belief in the marked as distinct by the belief in the marked as distinct by the belief in the resurrection. And there's no other uh resurrection. And there's no other uh resurrection. And there's no other uh religious leader that even has something religious leader that even has something religious leader that even has something similar uh in terms of the the nature of similar uh in terms of the the nature of similar uh in terms of the the nature of the Christian claim. And here's one the Christian claim. And here's one the Christian claim. And here's one other thing I'll add that we were other thing I'll add that we were other thing I'll add that we were talking about a moment ago is that most talking about a moment ago is that most talking about a moment ago is that most Christians don't even realize how Christians don't even realize how Christians don't even realize how significant it is for their own hope significant it is for their own hope significant it is for their own hope because our our eternal hope is not because our our eternal hope is not because our our eternal hope is not merely spiritual.

merely spiritual. merely spiritual. We tend to think in the modern church We tend to think in the modern church We tend to think in the modern church that when I die, I go to heaven and that when I die, I go to heaven and that when I die, I go to heaven and that's the end of it. Well, if you're a that's the end of it. Well, if you're a that's the end of it. Well, if you're a Christian and you die, you do go to Christian and you die, you do go to Christian and you die, you do go to heaven spiritually, but that's not the heaven spiritually, but that's not the heaven spiritually, but that's not the end either because eventually Christ is end either because eventually Christ is end either because eventually Christ is going to come back and he'll bring our going to come back and he'll bring our going to come back and he'll bring our um bodies to life again in new um bodies to life again in new um bodies to life again in new resurrected bodies and our eternal resurrected bodies and our eternal resurrected bodies and our eternal existence will be physical. So, there's existence will be physical. So, there's existence will be physical. So, there's a real different vibe there. And so, a real different vibe there. And so, a real different vibe there. And so, this is the central Christian belief. this is the central Christian belief. this is the central Christian belief. And if you deny the resurrection, you And if you deny the resurrection, you And if you deny the resurrection, you really deny Jesus. If you deny Jesus, really deny Jesus. If you deny Jesus, really deny Jesus. If you deny Jesus, you It's hard to It's hard to claim the you It's hard to It's hard to claim the you It's hard to It's hard to claim the name Christian. I think that's It's name Christian. I think that's It's name Christian. I think that's It's interesting, isn't it? Every year this interesting, isn't it? Every year this interesting, isn't it? Every year this time around Easter um on some TV show, time around Easter um on some TV show, time around Easter um on some TV show, it could be now a Netflix special or it could be now a Netflix special or it could be now a Netflix special or whatever, inevitably there's going to be whatever, inevitably there's going to be whatever, inevitably there's going to be a program that is going to be on why the a program that is going to be on why the a program that is going to be on why the bodily bodily bodily resurrection of Jesus did not happen. resurrection of Jesus did not happen. resurrection of Jesus did not happen. Every year this happens at Easter, and Every year this happens at Easter, and Every year this happens at Easter, and often you and I have been watching often you and I have been watching often you and I have been watching these. We'll be sitting on the couch these. We'll be sitting on the couch these. We'll be sitting on the couch and we're watching them, and they'll be and we're watching them, and they'll be and we're watching them, and they'll be spouting out facts, and you're like, spouting out facts, and you're like, spouting out facts, and you're like, "That's not true. "That's not true. "That's not true. That's not what he said. No, that's not That's not what he said. No, that's not That's not what he said. No, that's not what happened. Yeah, that's not true."

what happened. Yeah, that's not true." what happened. Yeah, that's not true." The the you know, you always have these The the you know, you always have these The the you know, you always have these facts that contradict what they're facts that contradict what they're facts that contradict what they're saying so assuredly on these TV shows. saying so assuredly on these TV shows. saying so assuredly on these TV shows. So, if someone is you know, stumbles So, if someone is you know, stumbles So, if someone is you know, stumbles across one of these on some ABC, NBC, across one of these on some ABC, NBC, across one of these on some ABC, NBC, whatever show they're watching, whatever show they're watching, whatever show they're watching, what encouragement can you give them what encouragement can you give them what encouragement can you give them about one of these documentaries that about one of these documentaries that about one of these documentaries that seems so sure in what it's saying, how seems so sure in what it's saying, how seems so sure in what it's saying, how it was impossible, the timing of the it was impossible, the timing of the it was impossible, the timing of the Gospels was off, or you know, something Gospels was off, or you know, something Gospels was off, or you know, something couldn't have happened, and they're couldn't have happened, and they're couldn't have happened, and they're they're giving these claims, what they're giving these claims, what they're giving these claims, what encouragement would you give them as encouragement would you give them as encouragement would you give them as they're watching something like that? they're watching something like that? they're watching something like that? Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say in Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say in Yeah, I mean, there's so much to say in response to that. It does seem to happen response to that. It does seem to happen response to that. It does seem to happen every single Easter, and now on social every single Easter, and now on social every single Easter, and now on social media you have an explosion of things on media you have an explosion of things on media you have an explosion of things on Easter that are critiquing it. You could Easter that are critiquing it. You could Easter that are critiquing it. You could watch a Discovery Channel show or watch a Discovery Channel show or watch a Discovery Channel show or documentary on the History Channel, and documentary on the History Channel, and documentary on the History Channel, and years gone by, there'd be newspaper and years gone by, there'd be newspaper and years gone by, there'd be newspaper and magazine articles all challenging the magazine articles all challenging the magazine articles all challenging the Easter event. So, my response to that is Easter event. So, my response to that is Easter event. So, my response to that is multifaceted. One is, the fact that multifaceted. One is, the fact that multifaceted. One is, the fact that skeptics are so eager to challenge the skeptics are so eager to challenge the skeptics are so eager to challenge the Easter event shows you how central it is Easter event shows you how central it is Easter event shows you how central it is to Christianity.

to Christianity. to Christianity. I mean, if you're going to challenge I mean, if you're going to challenge I mean, if you're going to challenge Christianity, what event are you going Christianity, what event are you going Christianity, what event are you going to pick? Well, this is the one. And so, to pick? Well, this is the one. And so, to pick? Well, this is the one. And so, that actually tells you how significant that actually tells you how significant that actually tells you how significant it is, and it answers a little bit of it is, and it answers a little bit of it is, and it answers a little bit of the prior question, which is you can't the prior question, which is you can't the prior question, which is you can't have Christianity without the have Christianity without the have Christianity without the resurrection, and skeptics know this. resurrection, and skeptics know this. resurrection, and skeptics know this. So, if they can debunk the resurrection, So, if they can debunk the resurrection, So, if they can debunk the resurrection, they've effectively debunked Jesus and they've effectively debunked Jesus and they've effectively debunked Jesus and debunked Christianity. So, the first debunked Christianity. So, the first debunked Christianity. So, the first thing I would say is, realize you're in thing I would say is, realize you're in thing I would say is, realize you're in you're in you're on sacred ground here. you're in you're on sacred ground here. you're in you're on sacred ground here. And what I mean by that is you're And what I mean by that is you're And what I mean by that is you're dealing with the core claim of Christ. dealing with the core claim of Christ. dealing with the core claim of Christ. And so, that's the first thing to And so, that's the first thing to And so, that's the first thing to recognize. Second thing to recognize recognize. Second thing to recognize recognize. Second thing to recognize when you hear these documentaries is when you hear these documentaries is when you hear these documentaries is just to remember that objections to the just to remember that objections to the just to remember that objections to the resurrection aren't merely uh resurrection aren't merely uh resurrection aren't merely uh historical. historical. historical. Lots of times these documentaries give Lots of times these documentaries give Lots of times these documentaries give the impression that their their their the impression that their their their the impression that their their their objections are merely historical and objections are merely historical and objections are merely historical and it's all about the evidence, but I think it's all about the evidence, but I think it's all about the evidence, but I think we all know that that beliefs aren't we all know that that beliefs aren't we all know that that beliefs aren't that simple and they're not formed that that simple and they're not formed that that simple and they're not formed that way. And what I often tell people is way. And what I often tell people is way. And what I often tell people is that you want to talk about the that you want to talk about the that you want to talk about the resurrection, you got to back up a resurrection, you got to back up a resurrection, you got to back up a minute and talk first of all about what minute and talk first of all about what minute and talk first of all about what you find you find you find uh as something that could be a uh as something that could be a uh as something that could be a plausible thing to happen in the world. plausible thing to happen in the world. plausible thing to happen in the world. If you have a worldview that says If you have a worldview that says If you have a worldview that says there's no God, if you have a worldview there's no God, if you have a worldview there's no God, if you have a worldview that says there's no miraculous or no that says there's no miraculous or no that says there's no miraculous or no supernatural, and I give you evidence supernatural, and I give you evidence supernatural, and I give you evidence for the resurrection, even if it's good for the resurrection, even if it's good for the resurrection, even if it's good evidence, you're not going to accept evidence, you're not going to accept evidence, you're not going to accept that evidence.

that evidence. that evidence. You're not going to find that evidence You're not going to find that evidence You're not going to find that evidence persuasive because you already have an persuasive because you already have an persuasive because you already have an idea in your head that that's idea in your head that that's idea in your head that that's impossible. That can't take place. And impossible. That can't take place. And impossible. That can't take place. And when you watch these shows on the when you watch these shows on the when you watch these shows on the Discovery Channel or wherever, you have Discovery Channel or wherever, you have Discovery Channel or wherever, you have to realize that that there's a lot of to realize that that there's a lot of to realize that that there's a lot of philosophical uh things in play, not philosophical uh things in play, not philosophical uh things in play, not just historical. And a lot of people just historical. And a lot of people just historical. And a lot of people just can't get themselves to believe a just can't get themselves to believe a just can't get themselves to believe a man died and rose again regardless of man died and rose again regardless of man died and rose again regardless of the historical evidence. So, it's not the historical evidence. So, it's not the historical evidence. So, it's not always about the evidence. It's actually always about the evidence. It's actually always about the evidence. It's actually about the way where you start from and about the way where you start from and about the way where you start from and what your set of beliefs are that you what your set of beliefs are that you what your set of beliefs are that you bring to the discussion from the bring to the discussion from the bring to the discussion from the beginning. Well, Mike, let me ask you beginning. Well, Mike, let me ask you beginning. Well, Mike, let me ask you about the evidence. Like if you had an about the evidence. Like if you had an about the evidence. Like if you had an index card and you were just going to index card and you were just going to index card and you were just going to write out some of the, you know, the write out some of the, you know, the write out some of the, you know, the best evidence, the best arguments. Um best evidence, the best arguments. Um best evidence, the best arguments. Um what would, you know, just bullet point what would, you know, just bullet point what would, you know, just bullet point a few of them for us? Yeah, actually the a few of them for us? Yeah, actually the a few of them for us? Yeah, actually the the argument for the resurrection is is the argument for the resurrection is is the argument for the resurrection is is remarkably simple, but I think also remarkably simple, but I think also remarkably simple, but I think also um remarkably convincing. And so, I um remarkably convincing. And so, I um remarkably convincing. And so, I usually go through a number of bullet usually go through a number of bullet usually go through a number of bullet points with people. I say, "Here's points with people. I say, "Here's points with people. I say, "Here's Here's the Here's the facts as we see Here's the Here's the facts as we see Here's the Here's the facts as we see them. them. them. Jesus really lived. We know he's an Jesus really lived. We know he's an Jesus really lived. We know he's an historical figure. There's universal historical figure. There's universal historical figure. There's universal agreement about it. Um we know a good agreement about it. Um we know a good agreement about it. Um we know a good bit about his life, even skeptical bit about his life, even skeptical bit about his life, even skeptical scholars agree.

scholars agree. scholars agree. We know he died. We know he died. We know he died. Um there's no doubt that he was killed Um there's no doubt that he was killed Um there's no doubt that he was killed on the cross and he was crucified. Even on the cross and he was crucified. Even on the cross and he was crucified. Even secular scholars agree. Um so, we know secular scholars agree. Um so, we know secular scholars agree. Um so, we know he was put to death and really did die. he was put to death and really did die. he was put to death and really did die. So, it wasn't a fake death. It wasn't an So, it wasn't a fake death. It wasn't an So, it wasn't a fake death. It wasn't an accident You know, didn't think he was accident You know, didn't think he was accident You know, didn't think he was alive when he was think he was dead when alive when he was think he was dead when alive when he was think he was dead when he was really alive. We know he actually he was really alive. We know he actually he was really alive. We know he actually uh was was was put to death. Thirdly, we uh was was was put to death. Thirdly, we uh was was was put to death. Thirdly, we have all kinds of historical evidence have all kinds of historical evidence have all kinds of historical evidence suggest that where he was buried was was suggest that where he was buried was was suggest that where he was buried was was was well known. was well known. was well known. It was public information. It was public information. It was public information. How do we know this? Well, we we know How do we know this? Well, we we know How do we know this? Well, we we know that the Roman government had a vested that the Roman government had a vested that the Roman government had a vested interest in making sure that that there interest in making sure that that there interest in making sure that that there was no going to be no fraud involved. No was no going to be no fraud involved. No was no going to be no fraud involved. No one's going to pretend Jesus rose from one's going to pretend Jesus rose from one's going to pretend Jesus rose from the dead. So, there had to be a a tomb the dead. So, there had to be a a tomb the dead. So, there had to be a a tomb that they could guard, that they could that they could guard, that they could that they could guard, that they could protect to keep uh anything from protect to keep uh anything from protect to keep uh anything from happening to the body. Uh there was a happening to the body. Uh there was a happening to the body. Uh there was a sense in which the women who were to go sense in which the women who were to go sense in which the women who were to go to the tomb, they clearly had an idea to the tomb, they clearly had an idea to the tomb, they clearly had an idea where the body was. So, all the threads where the body was. So, all the threads where the body was. So, all the threads of historical evidence we have suggest of historical evidence we have suggest of historical evidence we have suggest that the tomb was a known location. That that the tomb was a known location. That that the tomb was a known location. That it wasn't a mystery where his where he it wasn't a mystery where his where he it wasn't a mystery where his where he was buried. And then I would add a was buried. And then I would add a was buried. And then I would add a fourth data point is that three days fourth data point is that three days fourth data point is that three days later, there's testimony that the tomb later, there's testimony that the tomb later, there's testimony that the tomb was empty. That there was no body in the was empty. That there was no body in the was empty. That there was no body in the tomb. That the body was no longer there.

tomb. That the body was no longer there. tomb. That the body was no longer there. Um and that people went to the tomb and Um and that people went to the tomb and Um and that people went to the tomb and found it to be without Jesus. And then found it to be without Jesus. And then found it to be without Jesus. And then then I would add a fifth piece of then I would add a fifth piece of then I would add a fifth piece of evidence. We have people who claim that evidence. We have people who claim that evidence. We have people who claim that they saw him alive. Paul actually claims they saw him alive. Paul actually claims they saw him alive. Paul actually claims that over 500 people saw him alive at that over 500 people saw him alive at that over 500 people saw him alive at one point. Um and then I would get to one point. Um and then I would get to one point. Um and then I would get to the last claim, which I think is one of the last claim, which I think is one of the last claim, which I think is one of the most significant, which is that the the most significant, which is that the the most significant, which is that the early Christian movement, which had early Christian movement, which had early Christian movement, which had every reason to end at Jesus's death, every reason to end at Jesus's death, every reason to end at Jesus's death, did not end, but kept going and expanded did not end, but kept going and expanded did not end, but kept going and expanded and grew all under the conviction that and grew all under the conviction that and grew all under the conviction that Jesus had risen. Now, you look at the Jesus had risen. Now, you look at the Jesus had risen. Now, you look at the conglomeration of all those little data conglomeration of all those little data conglomeration of all those little data points I gave you, five or six of them. points I gave you, five or six of them. points I gave you, five or six of them. The question at that point is what's the The question at that point is what's the The question at that point is what's the best historical explanation of this best historical explanation of this best historical explanation of this data? data? data? Now, the skeptic's going to say, "Well, Now, the skeptic's going to say, "Well, Now, the skeptic's going to say, "Well, you know, I I'll never allow a miracle. you know, I I'll never allow a miracle. you know, I I'll never allow a miracle. So, therefore, my best explanation is So, therefore, my best explanation is So, therefore, my best explanation is some other sort of scenario." But if you some other sort of scenario." But if you some other sort of scenario." But if you if you don't rule out the supernatural, if you don't rule out the supernatural, if you don't rule out the supernatural, if you don't rule out God's if you don't rule out God's if you don't rule out God's intervention, you actually can see how intervention, you actually can see how intervention, you actually can see how that those those data points all come that those those data points all come that those those data points all come together to make a pretty convincing together to make a pretty convincing together to make a pretty convincing case. case. case. So, when I think about the resurrection So, when I think about the resurrection So, when I think about the resurrection story and the Easter story, story and the Easter story, story and the Easter story, one of the things that um you kind of one of the things that um you kind of one of the things that um you kind of hinted at um in this was eyewitnesses.

hinted at um in this was eyewitnesses. hinted at um in this was eyewitnesses. And um one thing that's always pretty And um one thing that's always pretty And um one thing that's always pretty compelling to me is you see these compelling to me is you see these compelling to me is you see these disciples disciples disciples who beforehand, you know, when Jesus is who beforehand, you know, when Jesus is who beforehand, you know, when Jesus is just taken to be crucified, they're just taken to be crucified, they're just taken to be crucified, they're scattering. It says they all, you know, scattering. It says they all, you know, scattering. It says they all, you know, he was left alone. Um and then yet we he was left alone. Um and then yet we he was left alone. Um and then yet we see see see >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> post-resurrection, >> post-resurrection, >> post-resurrection, um a very different group of disciples. um a very different group of disciples. um a very different group of disciples. I mean, a lot of them in early church I mean, a lot of them in early church I mean, a lot of them in early church history would go on to be martyred for history would go on to be martyred for history would go on to be martyred for the faith. So, these these very same the faith. So, these these very same the faith. So, these these very same people who scattered pre- people who scattered pre- people who scattered pre- crucifixion now seem actually emboldened crucifixion now seem actually emboldened crucifixion now seem actually emboldened post-crucifixion. post-crucifixion. post-crucifixion. Um how does that story kind of add to Um how does that story kind of add to Um how does that story kind of add to our understanding of the resurrection our understanding of the resurrection our understanding of the resurrection and the power of what happened um and the power of what happened um and the power of what happened um at Easter? Yeah, so one of the things at Easter? Yeah, so one of the things at Easter? Yeah, so one of the things people don't necessarily think about people don't necessarily think about people don't necessarily think about when we're talking about the when we're talking about the when we're talking about the resurrection is resurrection is resurrection is is they think, "Well, do I believe Jesus is they think, "Well, do I believe Jesus is they think, "Well, do I believe Jesus rose from the dead?" That's not really rose from the dead?" That's not really rose from the dead?" That's not really the right question to ask at first. The the right question to ask at first. The the right question to ask at first. The the better question ask historically is, the better question ask historically is, the better question ask historically is, "What can explain how early Christians "What can explain how early Christians "What can explain how early Christians came to believe came to believe came to believe Jesus rose from the dead?"

Jesus rose from the dead?" Jesus rose from the dead?" Because we know from historical fact Because we know from historical fact Because we know from historical fact they came to believe it, and they came they came to believe it, and they came they came to believe it, and they came to believe it vigorously, and they even to believe it vigorously, and they even to believe it vigorously, and they even believed it so much that many of them believed it so much that many of them believed it so much that many of them were martyred on the foundation of that were martyred on the foundation of that were martyred on the foundation of that belief, and the Christian movement belief, and the Christian movement belief, and the Christian movement didn't die, kept going. So, how do I didn't die, kept going. So, how do I didn't die, kept going. So, how do I explain that? That's That's the That's explain that? That's That's the That's explain that? That's That's the That's the real question. And what we find is a the real question. And what we find is a the real question. And what we find is a remarkable scenario here, which is remarkable scenario here, which is remarkable scenario here, which is people tend to think that that when people tend to think that that when people tend to think that that when Jesus died, the disciples were like, Jesus died, the disciples were like, Jesus died, the disciples were like, "Well, I know he died, but we'll make "Well, I know he died, but we'll make "Well, I know he died, but we'll make the best of this. We'll keep the the best of this. We'll keep the the best of this. We'll keep the movement going. We'll We'll try to movement going. We'll We'll try to movement going. We'll We'll try to salvage what he taught us, and we'll salvage what he taught us, and we'll salvage what he taught us, and we'll just start this Christian religion just start this Christian religion just start this Christian religion without him." without him." without him." No, that's not the evidence we have. The No, that's not the evidence we have. The No, that's not the evidence we have. The evidence we have is that when he died, evidence we have is that when he died, evidence we have is that when he died, that was it. In their minds, it's over, that was it. In their minds, it's over, that was it. In their minds, it's over, it's done. We lost, we failed. He wasn't it's done. We lost, we failed. He wasn't it's done. We lost, we failed. He wasn't the Messiah, because for the Messiah to the Messiah, because for the Messiah to the Messiah, because for the Messiah to die in early Jewish expectations was to die in early Jewish expectations was to die in early Jewish expectations was to prove he's not the Messiah. prove he's not the Messiah. prove he's not the Messiah. Is to prove prove that he was defeated Is to prove prove that he was defeated Is to prove prove that he was defeated by the Romans instead of defeating the by the Romans instead of defeating the by the Romans instead of defeating the Romans. Romans. Romans. So, the idea that every disciple in So, the idea that every disciple in So, the idea that every disciple in these first few days was was willing to these first few days was was willing to these first few days was was willing to see Jesus behind every tree and under see Jesus behind every tree and under see Jesus behind every tree and under every rock, and they were just were every rock, and they were just were every rock, and they were just were going to have a hallucination and be going to have a hallucination and be going to have a hallucination and be willing to see him come back. No, they willing to see him come back. No, they willing to see him come back. No, they they had completely given up. Um and they had completely given up. Um and they had completely given up. Um and it's that transition between total it's that transition between total it's that transition between total despondency, total defeat, total given despondency, total defeat, total given despondency, total defeat, total given up to suddenly up to suddenly up to suddenly uh a a a courage and boldness and and uh a a a courage and boldness and and uh a a a courage and boldness and and and outward-facingness and a and a and a and outward-facingness and a and a and a and outward-facingness and a and a and a and a movement that didn't die is is a and a movement that didn't die is is a and a movement that didn't die is is a stunning historical fact. And it's an stunning historical fact. And it's an stunning historical fact. And it's an historical fact that deserves an historical fact that deserves an historical fact that deserves an explanation. And as Christians would explanation. And as Christians would explanation. And as Christians would argue, I don't know of any explanation argue, I don't know of any explanation argue, I don't know of any explanation that comes close to explaining that that comes close to explaining that that comes close to explaining that unless Jesus actually was seen alive unless Jesus actually was seen alive unless Jesus actually was seen alive uh physically by his followers.

uh physically by his followers. uh physically by his followers. So, what appearances did Jesus make So, what appearances did Jesus make So, what appearances did Jesus make after his resurre- resurrection? And why after his resurre- resurrection? And why after his resurre- resurrection? And why should we believe that they really saw should we believe that they really saw should we believe that they really saw him? Because I mean, to your point, him? Because I mean, to your point, him? Because I mean, to your point, their lives were totally changed. Uh how their lives were totally changed. Uh how their lives were totally changed. Uh how many actually were martyred for their many actually were martyred for their many actually were martyred for their faith? I mean, you just don't you're not faith? I mean, you just don't you're not faith? I mean, you just don't you're not willing to die for something that you willing to die for something that you willing to die for something that you don't, you know, have so much confidence don't, you know, have so much confidence don't, you know, have so much confidence in. And so So, these appearances, these in. And so So, these appearances, these in. And so So, these appearances, these eyewitness accounts of the resurrection eyewitness accounts of the resurrection eyewitness accounts of the resurrection are so crucial not just in the lives of are so crucial not just in the lives of are so crucial not just in the lives of the the followers then, but in the lives the the followers then, but in the lives the the followers then, but in the lives of the followers today. Um so, what of the followers today. Um so, what of the followers today. Um so, what appearances did Jesus make after the appearances did Jesus make after the appearances did Jesus make after the resurrection? Yeah, this is this is resurrection? Yeah, this is this is resurrection? Yeah, this is this is where our evidence actually is really where our evidence actually is really where our evidence actually is really good. So, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul has good. So, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul has good. So, in 1 Corinthians 15, Paul has a very famous section where he talks a very famous section where he talks a very famous section where he talks about the resurrection and the about the resurrection and the about the resurrection and the resurrection appearances in particular. resurrection appearances in particular. resurrection appearances in particular. And in that passage, he talks about how And in that passage, he talks about how And in that passage, he talks about how the tomb was empty, he rose, he was the tomb was empty, he rose, he was the tomb was empty, he rose, he was buried and rose. And he talks about the buried and rose. And he talks about the buried and rose. And he talks about the the also, in addition to the empty tomb, the also, in addition to the empty tomb, the also, in addition to the empty tomb, the resurrection appearances. And he the resurrection appearances. And he the resurrection appearances. And he mentions, of course, that mentions, of course, that mentions, of course, that he appeared to the disciples, which he he appeared to the disciples, which he he appeared to the disciples, which he did. Um he appeared to James, which he did. Um he appeared to James, which he did. Um he appeared to James, which he did. He appeared to Paul himself on the did. He appeared to Paul himself on the did. He appeared to Paul himself on the road to Damascus at a slightly later road to Damascus at a slightly later road to Damascus at a slightly later point. He appeared to over 500 people at point. He appeared to over 500 people at point. He appeared to over 500 people at one particular time. And we also know one particular time. And we also know one particular time. And we also know from the gospel accounts that he from the gospel accounts that he from the gospel accounts that he actually appeared to the women.

actually appeared to the women. actually appeared to the women. Um and he also appeared to the disciples Um and he also appeared to the disciples Um and he also appeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus. So, the the on the road to Emmaus. So, the the on the road to Emmaus. So, the the resurrection appearances are broad and resurrection appearances are broad and resurrection appearances are broad and dispersed and in different locations, dispersed and in different locations, dispersed and in different locations, different regions, different people, different regions, different people, different regions, different people, different scenarios. different scenarios. different scenarios. And this is one of the things that that And this is one of the things that that And this is one of the things that that it compelling. So, you know, it's not it compelling. So, you know, it's not it compelling. So, you know, it's not like one person says, "I saw Jesus rise like one person says, "I saw Jesus rise like one person says, "I saw Jesus rise from the dead and you got to trust me in from the dead and you got to trust me in from the dead and you got to trust me in all things funnel through me as if all things funnel through me as if all things funnel through me as if everything hinges on that one everything hinges on that one everything hinges on that one individual's testimony." No, we we have individual's testimony." No, we we have individual's testimony." No, we we have multiple testimonies from diverse multiple testimonies from diverse multiple testimonies from diverse locations and diverse individuals. And locations and diverse individuals. And locations and diverse individuals. And here's the other thing that's here's the other thing that's here's the other thing that's interesting, is it when Paul passes interesting, is it when Paul passes interesting, is it when Paul passes along that that summary of the along that that summary of the along that that summary of the resurrection appearances in 1 resurrection appearances in 1 resurrection appearances in 1 Corinthians 15, scholars have noted that Corinthians 15, scholars have noted that Corinthians 15, scholars have noted that it looks like a it's sort of a a it looks like a it's sort of a a it looks like a it's sort of a a packaged summary, so much so that it packaged summary, so much so that it packaged summary, so much so that it looks like Paul's actually passing along looks like Paul's actually passing along looks like Paul's actually passing along earlier tradition. earlier tradition. earlier tradition. In fact, in the statement of 1 In fact, in the statement of 1 In fact, in the statement of 1 Corinthians 15, Paul actually says he's Corinthians 15, Paul actually says he's Corinthians 15, Paul actually says he's passing along earlier tradition. What I passing along earlier tradition. What I passing along earlier tradition. What I received, I'm passing to you, that that received, I'm passing to you, that that received, I'm passing to you, that that Christ died according to or for our sins Christ died according to or for our sins Christ died according to or for our sins according to the scriptures and that 3 according to the scriptures and that 3 according to the scriptures and that 3 days later he was risen from the dead days later he was risen from the dead days later he was risen from the dead and so on. And so, almost all scholars and so on. And so, almost all scholars and so on. And so, almost all scholars recognize that he's he's getting earlier recognize that he's he's getting earlier recognize that he's he's getting earlier material. So, this material takes us all material. So, this material takes us all material. So, this material takes us all the way back into the 40s of the 1st the way back into the 40s of the 1st the way back into the 40s of the 1st century.

century. century. So, we know that from a very early time So, we know that from a very early time So, we know that from a very early time there was a belief in the resurrection, there was a belief in the resurrection, there was a belief in the resurrection, a very early time Christians believed a very early time Christians believed a very early time Christians believed Jesus had risen from the dead and had Jesus had risen from the dead and had Jesus had risen from the dead and had many testimonies circulating that many testimonies circulating that many testimonies circulating that supported that belief. Mhm, I love that. supported that belief. Mhm, I love that. supported that belief. Mhm, I love that. Well, and in that whole 1 Corinthians 15 Well, and in that whole 1 Corinthians 15 Well, and in that whole 1 Corinthians 15 where Paul says, I mean if the where Paul says, I mean if the where Paul says, I mean if the resurrection didn't happen, like Yeah, resurrection didn't happen, like Yeah, resurrection didn't happen, like Yeah, that's what he goes on to say, right? that's what he goes on to say, right? that's what he goes on to say, right? >> What's the point? I mean, our entire >> What's the point? I mean, our entire >> What's the point? I mean, our entire faith hinges on because the reality, we faith hinges on because the reality, we faith hinges on because the reality, we talk so much about the crucifixion, but talk so much about the crucifixion, but talk so much about the crucifixion, but the reality is many many many people the reality is many many many people the reality is many many many people were crucified. were crucified. were crucified. Um, it's actually it's the it's the Um, it's actually it's the it's the Um, it's actually it's the it's the obviously the incarnation, the sinless obviously the incarnation, the sinless obviously the incarnation, the sinless life, I mean, all of it is salvific, life, I mean, all of it is salvific, life, I mean, all of it is salvific, right? It requires all of it and but it right? It requires all of it and but it right? It requires all of it and but it hinges on the death and resurrection, hinges on the death and resurrection, hinges on the death and resurrection, but I think we can even hone in a little but I think we can even hone in a little but I think we can even hone in a little bit more and say, I mean, if Well, it's bit more and say, I mean, if Well, it's bit more and say, I mean, if Well, it's what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, if what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, if what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, if the resurrection didn't happen, then all the resurrection didn't happen, then all the resurrection didn't happen, then all of this is futile. Your faith is in of this is futile. Your faith is in of this is futile. Your faith is in vain, our preaching is in vain. No, let vain, our preaching is in vain. No, let vain, our preaching is in vain. No, let me let me pause on that for a second. me let me pause on that for a second. me let me pause on that for a second. This is really critical because This is really critical because This is really critical because a dead savior's not a savior, okay? a dead savior's not a savior, okay? a dead savior's not a savior, okay? A a dead savior only is actually a sign A a dead savior only is actually a sign A a dead savior only is actually a sign that he wasn't the savior.

that he wasn't the savior. that he wasn't the savior. And and one of the things people don't And and one of the things people don't And and one of the things people don't realize is that there had been other realize is that there had been other realize is that there had been other would-be Messiahs would-be Messiahs would-be Messiahs before Jesus before Jesus before Jesus and after Jesus had gained a following. and after Jesus had gained a following. and after Jesus had gained a following. And people began began to be convinced And people began began to be convinced And people began began to be convinced that this person was the Messiah, and that this person was the Messiah, and that this person was the Messiah, and when that person was put to death by the when that person was put to death by the when that person was put to death by the Roman government, the the movement Roman government, the the movement Roman government, the the movement ended. ended. ended. And and then and they ended every time And and then and they ended every time And and then and they ended every time because people knew that a dead Messiah because people knew that a dead Messiah because people knew that a dead Messiah who stays dead is not the Messiah, and who stays dead is not the Messiah, and who stays dead is not the Messiah, and you move on. You don't salvage it, you you move on. You don't salvage it, you you move on. You don't salvage it, you don't try to make it the best you can don't try to make it the best you can don't try to make it the best you can make it, you don't It's just over. Um make it, you don't It's just over. Um make it, you don't It's just over. Um and so what's interesting about the and so what's interesting about the and so what's interesting about the early Christian movement is they had a early Christian movement is they had a early Christian movement is they had a dead Messiah that then they claimed was dead Messiah that then they claimed was dead Messiah that then they claimed was alive again. And that's the only way you alive again. And that's the only way you alive again. And that's the only way you could actually have a movement. You could actually have a movement. You could actually have a movement. You can't have a movement any other way can't have a movement any other way can't have a movement any other way unless there's a a living savior. So unless there's a a living savior. So unless there's a a living savior. So somewhere the Christians came to believe somewhere the Christians came to believe somewhere the Christians came to believe that he was alive and really alive, not that he was alive and really alive, not that he was alive and really alive, not in their hearts, in their hearts, in their hearts, not in their minds, not just in spirit not in their minds, not just in spirit not in their minds, not just in spirit and heaven, but he was really alive. And and heaven, but he was really alive. And and heaven, but he was really alive. And that demands an historical explanation, that demands an historical explanation, that demands an historical explanation, and this is where we keep coming back to and this is where we keep coming back to and this is where we keep coming back to the same thing again. The Christians the same thing again. The Christians the same thing again. The Christians were not anticipating or thinking it was were not anticipating or thinking it was were not anticipating or thinking it was going to happen, or they had they had going to happen, or they had they had going to happen, or they had they had given up and were just in hiding, and given up and were just in hiding, and given up and were just in hiding, and something had to really flip the script.

something had to really flip the script. something had to really flip the script. Yeah, and those 3 days in between. I Yeah, and those 3 days in between. I Yeah, and those 3 days in between. I mean, the the hopelessness. They had you mean, the the hopelessness. They had you mean, the the hopelessness. They had you know, they had lost everything. Like you know, they had lost everything. Like you know, they had lost everything. Like you said, they thought they had been said, they thought they had been said, they thought they had been defeated. And then But even how God goes defeated. And then But even how God goes defeated. And then But even how God goes out of his way to say, out of his way to say, out of his way to say, "I am going to have so many eyewitnesses "I am going to have so many eyewitnesses "I am going to have so many eyewitnesses to this." I mean, it's such a it's such to this." I mean, it's such a it's such to this." I mean, it's such a it's such a mercy. We're not asked to believe a mercy. We're not asked to believe a mercy. We're not asked to believe something that happened You know, there something that happened You know, there something that happened You know, there are there are um religions of revelation are there are um religions of revelation are there are um religions of revelation that things happen in secret, they that things happen in secret, they that things happen in secret, they happen in hiding. And and God throughout happen in hiding. And and God throughout happen in hiding. And and God throughout the story did did things very publicly, the story did did things very publicly, the story did did things very publicly, did things specifically with did things specifically with did things specifically with eyewitnesses. And praise God for the eyewitnesses. And praise God for the eyewitnesses. And praise God for the eyewitnesses to the resurrection. Um it eyewitnesses to the resurrection. Um it eyewitnesses to the resurrection. Um it is it is um what we what we base our our is it is um what we what we base our our is it is um what we what we base our our faith on. Well, we're going to take a faith on. Well, we're going to take a faith on. Well, we're going to take a break for an ad to hear a word from our break for an ad to hear a word from our break for an ad to hear a word from our sponsors. And we are going to come back sponsors. And we are going to come back sponsors. And we are going to come back and land the plane on just the and land the plane on just the and land the plane on just the importance of the resurrection. Mike, importance of the resurrection. Mike, importance of the resurrection. Mike, thanks for being with us. We'll be back thanks for being with us. We'll be back thanks for being with us. We'll be back in a a Thanks so much for listening. Um I'm so Thanks so much for listening. Um I'm so excited about this conversation about excited about this conversation about excited about this conversation about the resurrection. Thanks, Mike. I was the resurrection. Thanks, Mike. I was the resurrection. Thanks, Mike. I was about to call you hon for being here, about to call you hon for being here, about to call you hon for being here, but I thought that might be weird.

but I thought that might be weird. but I thought that might be weird. >> a podcast. Is that allowed? >> a podcast. Is that allowed? >> a podcast. Is that allowed? >> Is that weird? Sure you can. Sure you >> Is that weird? Sure you can. Sure you >> Is that weird? Sure you can. Sure you can. can. can. >> is so fun for me. Two of my favorite >> is so fun for me. Two of my favorite >> is so fun for me. Two of my favorite people on the podcast together. So it's people on the podcast together. So it's people on the podcast together. So it's really fun to to get to have this really fun to to get to have this really fun to to get to have this conversation. Um one thing I know that conversation. Um one thing I know that conversation. Um one thing I know that we've talked about a lot. I can remember we've talked about a lot. I can remember we've talked about a lot. I can remember sitting um actually in family devotion sitting um actually in family devotion sitting um actually in family devotion time talking about this at some level is time talking about this at some level is time talking about this at some level is how how how the New Testament and the Gospels in the New Testament and the Gospels in the New Testament and the Gospels in particular names so many names. Um particular names so many names. Um particular names so many names. Um they're very specific. These stories are they're very specific. These stories are they're very specific. These stories are not like, "Yeah, there was a guy who not like, "Yeah, there was a guy who not like, "Yeah, there was a guy who carried Jesus' cross." I mean, it's carried Jesus' cross." I mean, it's carried Jesus' cross." I mean, it's pretty specific. It says it was Simon. pretty specific. It says it was Simon. pretty specific. It says it was Simon. It says it was Cyrene. You know, and It says it was Cyrene. You know, and It says it was Cyrene. You know, and then it tells us about his kids. Rufus then it tells us about his kids. Rufus then it tells us about his kids. Rufus was Rufus and somebody was Rufus and somebody was Rufus and somebody >> Rufus. Yeah. Yeah, I So like it's like, >> Rufus. Yeah. Yeah, I So like it's like, >> Rufus. Yeah. Yeah, I So like it's like, "Hey, um you can actually go find these "Hey, um you can actually go find these "Hey, um you can actually go find these people." You know, I mean, there's a people." You know, I mean, there's a people." You know, I mean, there's a sense that eyewitnesses weren't "Yeah, a sense that eyewitnesses weren't "Yeah, a sense that eyewitnesses weren't "Yeah, a bunch of people saw his death." I mean, bunch of people saw his death." I mean, bunch of people saw his death." I mean, the New Testament really names a lot of the New Testament really names a lot of the New Testament really names a lot of names along along the way. Um but what names along along the way. Um but what names along along the way. Um but what if someone comes who's listening or if someone comes who's listening or if someone comes who's listening or thinking about the resurrection and they thinking about the resurrection and they thinking about the resurrection and they say, "Yeah, but all of this comes from say, "Yeah, but all of this comes from say, "Yeah, but all of this comes from the New Testament gospel accounts. I the New Testament gospel accounts. I the New Testament gospel accounts. I don't believe in those. I don't know if don't believe in those. I don't know if don't believe in those. I don't know if I can trust those. Why should I listen I can trust those. Why should I listen I can trust those. Why should I listen to those books and why should I believe to those books and why should I believe to those books and why should I believe them? The evidence you're giving seems them? The evidence you're giving seems them? The evidence you're giving seems to be coming from the source you believe to be coming from the source you believe to be coming from the source you believe in, but I don't believe in that source."

in, but I don't believe in that source." in, but I don't believe in that source." So what what would you say to someone So what what would you say to someone So what what would you say to someone who comes with those questions? who comes with those questions? who comes with those questions? Yeah, I mean, there's so many things to Yeah, I mean, there's so many things to Yeah, I mean, there's so many things to say. First of all, I would say it's not say. First of all, I would say it's not say. First of all, I would say it's not the only source. So we've already talked the only source. So we've already talked the only source. So we've already talked about Paul um who represents a much about Paul um who represents a much about Paul um who represents a much earlier source in the Gospels. We think earlier source in the Gospels. We think earlier source in the Gospels. We think the the the letter to the first the the the letter to the first the the the letter to the first Corinthians was probably somewhere in Corinthians was probably somewhere in Corinthians was probably somewhere in the mid-50s, okay? And then Paul himself the mid-50s, okay? And then Paul himself the mid-50s, okay? And then Paul himself cites an earlier source, namely the cites an earlier source, namely the cites an earlier source, namely the tradition he inherited that goes back tradition he inherited that goes back tradition he inherited that goes back into the 40s. And then we have the into the 40s. And then we have the into the 40s. And then we have the Gospels as sources on top of that. But Gospels as sources on top of that. But Gospels as sources on top of that. But they're independent, too. There's four they're independent, too. There's four they're independent, too. There's four different sources there. And then within different sources there. And then within different sources there. And then within the Gospels, there's sources. And the Gospels, there's sources. And the Gospels, there's sources. And they're often named individuals. And as they're often named individuals. And as they're often named individuals. And as you noted a minute ago, sometimes our you noted a minute ago, sometimes our you noted a minute ago, sometimes our Gospels mention names in such a specific Gospels mention names in such a specific Gospels mention names in such a specific way that you're wondering, why would you way that you're wondering, why would you way that you're wondering, why would you bother to mention the name in such a bother to mention the name in such a bother to mention the name in such a specific way unless you wanted your specific way unless you wanted your specific way unless you wanted your reader to know that they could reader to know that they could reader to know that they could theoretically follow up with these theoretically follow up with these theoretically follow up with these people and these people probably were people and these people probably were people and these people probably were the the source material for the the the source material for the the the source material for the eyewitness accounts they're getting. eyewitness accounts they're getting. eyewitness accounts they're getting. The Gospel Mark is a great example of The Gospel Mark is a great example of The Gospel Mark is a great example of this cuz it does it a ton. Even though this cuz it does it a ton. Even though this cuz it does it a ton. Even though the Gospel Mark is our earliest Gospel, the Gospel Mark is our earliest Gospel, the Gospel Mark is our earliest Gospel, the Gospel Mark actually is one Gospel the Gospel Mark actually is one Gospel the Gospel Mark actually is one Gospel includes some of these most unique names includes some of these most unique names includes some of these most unique names that show that Mark probably has these that show that Mark probably has these that show that Mark probably has these people people people as their source. So, you look at all as their source. So, you look at all as their source. So, you look at all that together, you have multiple angles, that together, you have multiple angles, that together, you have multiple angles, multiple traditions, multiple pieces of multiple traditions, multiple pieces of multiple traditions, multiple pieces of evidence all coming together and in evidence all coming together and in evidence all coming together and in confluence and in saying the same thing.

confluence and in saying the same thing. confluence and in saying the same thing. Now, a person at that point you could Now, a person at that point you could Now, a person at that point you could go, "Sorry, I I still don't believe." go, "Sorry, I I still don't believe." go, "Sorry, I I still don't believe." And they're free to say that. But I'm And they're free to say that. But I'm And they're free to say that. But I'm like, "Well, how do you form beliefs like, "Well, how do you form beliefs like, "Well, how do you form beliefs about other things in life? How do you about other things in life? How do you about other things in life? How do you form beliefs about any event in ancient form beliefs about any event in ancient form beliefs about any event in ancient history?" Well, multiple testimonies. history?" Well, multiple testimonies. history?" Well, multiple testimonies. How do you form beliefs in a court of How do you form beliefs in a court of How do you form beliefs in a court of law? Well, probably multiple law? Well, probably multiple law? Well, probably multiple testimonies. And when you have multiple testimonies. And when you have multiple testimonies. And when you have multiple testimonies all headed in the same place testimonies all headed in the same place testimonies all headed in the same place and agreeing and some that you can trace and agreeing and some that you can trace and agreeing and some that you can trace back very, very early, you at least back very, very early, you at least back very, very early, you at least arrive at a plausible scenario, which is arrive at a plausible scenario, which is arrive at a plausible scenario, which is that there's good historical evidence to that there's good historical evidence to that there's good historical evidence to think that Jesus actually rose from the think that Jesus actually rose from the think that Jesus actually rose from the dead. People can hold out on that and dead. People can hold out on that and dead. People can hold out on that and say, "No, regardless of how good the say, "No, regardless of how good the say, "No, regardless of how good the evidence is, I still refuse to believe." evidence is, I still refuse to believe." evidence is, I still refuse to believe." People can say that. But now I would People can say that. But now I would People can say that. But now I would simply point out that your refusal to simply point out that your refusal to simply point out that your refusal to believe isn't actually about the believe isn't actually about the believe isn't actually about the evidence anymore. It's about some evidence anymore. It's about some evidence anymore. It's about some earlier assumption you have about what earlier assumption you have about what earlier assumption you have about what keeps you from believing, some something keeps you from believing, some something keeps you from believing, some something you can't get past because there is you can't get past because there is you can't get past because there is plausible plausible plausible evidence there. I mean, the other thing evidence there. I mean, the other thing evidence there. I mean, the other thing we could talk about is the is the we could talk about is the is the we could talk about is the is the historicity of the Gospels, right? Where historicity of the Gospels, right? Where historicity of the Gospels, right? Where we think they come from and and and how we think they come from and and and how we think they come from and and and how reliable they are. I'll just point out reliable they are. I'll just point out reliable they are. I'll just point out one thing here that people don't often one thing here that people don't often one thing here that people don't often notice about the Gospels, particularly notice about the Gospels, particularly notice about the Gospels, particularly when when it pertains to the when when it pertains to the when when it pertains to the resurrection, resurrection, resurrection, is how how restrained and matter-of-fact is how how restrained and matter-of-fact is how how restrained and matter-of-fact its reporting is. I just people never its reporting is. I just people never its reporting is. I just people never think about this, but I'll just give you think about this, but I'll just give you think about this, but I'll just give you an illustration of this. If you were an illustration of this. If you were an illustration of this. If you were making up a story of Jesus, and your making up a story of Jesus, and your making up a story of Jesus, and your crescendo moment was the resurrection, crescendo moment was the resurrection, crescendo moment was the resurrection, okay, would you not have written a story okay, would you not have written a story okay, would you not have written a story that placed an eyewitness right there at that placed an eyewitness right there at that placed an eyewitness right there at the tomb to watch Jesus come out?

the tomb to watch Jesus come out? the tomb to watch Jesus come out? Um that he could exit the tomb, and that Um that he could exit the tomb, and that Um that he could exit the tomb, and that someone could go, "I saw Jesus rise from someone could go, "I saw Jesus rise from someone could go, "I saw Jesus rise from the dead myself." the dead myself." the dead myself." You would expect that. But what we have You would expect that. But what we have You would expect that. But what we have in the Gospels actually is that no one in the Gospels actually is that no one in the Gospels actually is that no one in the Gospels actually sees Jesus walk in the Gospels actually sees Jesus walk in the Gospels actually sees Jesus walk out of the tomb. The women show up early out of the tomb. The women show up early out of the tomb. The women show up early that morning. The The stone's already that morning. The The stone's already that morning. The The stone's already rolled back. Jesus is already gone. So, rolled back. Jesus is already gone. So, rolled back. Jesus is already gone. So, what you actually have is a remarkable what you actually have is a remarkable what you actually have is a remarkable restraint there. No one actually sees a restraint there. No one actually sees a restraint there. No one actually sees a live vision of Jesus walking out of the live vision of Jesus walking out of the live vision of Jesus walking out of the tomb. They see him later, yes, but they tomb. They see him later, yes, but they tomb. They see him later, yes, but they don't see him actually coming out of the don't see him actually coming out of the don't see him actually coming out of the tomb tomb tomb and rising from the dead. That's a and rising from the dead. That's a and rising from the dead. That's a remarkable for a gospel. It almost like remarkable for a gospel. It almost like remarkable for a gospel. It almost like It's almost like they're telling you It's almost like they're telling you It's almost like they're telling you what actually happened, rather than an what actually happened, rather than an what actually happened, rather than an idealistic story about what they wish idealistic story about what they wish idealistic story about what they wish had happened. Now, what highlights this had happened. Now, what highlights this had happened. Now, what highlights this in particular is later apocryphal in particular is later apocryphal in particular is later apocryphal gospels actually fill in the gaps here. gospels actually fill in the gaps here. gospels actually fill in the gaps here. A later apocryphal gospel, known as the A later apocryphal gospel, known as the A later apocryphal gospel, known as the Gospel of Peter, actually gives us a Gospel of Peter, actually gives us a Gospel of Peter, actually gives us a live videotape, so to speak, of Jesus live videotape, so to speak, of Jesus live videotape, so to speak, of Jesus coming out of the tomb. There's people coming out of the tomb. There's people coming out of the tomb. There's people there waiting Can I Can I interrupt you? there waiting Can I Can I interrupt you? there waiting Can I Can I interrupt you? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> What's an apocryphal gospel? An >> What's an apocryphal gospel? An >> What's an apocryphal gospel? An apocryphal gospel is a gospel that's not apocryphal gospel is a gospel that's not apocryphal gospel is a gospel that's not in our Bibles, that was written later, in our Bibles, that was written later, in our Bibles, that was written later, and pretends to be authentic, but really and pretends to be authentic, but really and pretends to be authentic, but really isn't. Um and this one's called the isn't. Um and this one's called the isn't. Um and this one's called the Gospel of Peter, not written by Peter, Gospel of Peter, not written by Peter, Gospel of Peter, not written by Peter, but pretending to be written by Peter, but pretending to be written by Peter, but pretending to be written by Peter, and it gives you an account of the and it gives you an account of the and it gives you an account of the resurrection where there's live resurrection where there's live resurrection where there's live witnesses watching Jesus come out. It's witnesses watching Jesus come out. It's witnesses watching Jesus come out. It's clearly embellished. It's clearly clearly embellished. It's clearly clearly embellished. It's clearly filling in the gaps left by our filling in the gaps left by our filling in the gaps left by our canonical gospels, and actually shows canonical gospels, and actually shows canonical gospels, and actually shows you the how restrained our canonical you the how restrained our canonical you the how restrained our canonical gospels' testimonies were. So, someone gospels' testimonies were. So, someone gospels' testimonies were. So, someone is saying these are just fanciful is saying these are just fanciful is saying these are just fanciful stories. They're not written like stories. They're not written like stories. They're not written like fanciful stories. They're written like fanciful stories. They're written like fanciful stories. They're written like histor- like historical accounts of what histor- like historical accounts of what histor- like historical accounts of what really happened, and uh what really really happened, and uh what really really happened, and uh what really happened, and all the evidence seems to happened, and all the evidence seems to happened, and all the evidence seems to substantiate those historical accounts.

substantiate those historical accounts. substantiate those historical accounts. Well, I always think, too, like the Well, I always think, too, like the Well, I always think, too, like the disciples always look bad in these disciples always look bad in these disciples always look bad in these stories. I mean, that the reality is stories. I mean, that the reality is stories. I mean, that the reality is they're awfully Like if if these guys they're awfully Like if if these guys they're awfully Like if if these guys are getting together to write this are getting together to write this are getting together to write this story, they're really doing a disservice story, they're really doing a disservice story, they're really doing a disservice to themselves. They're not painted well to themselves. They're not painted well to themselves. They're not painted well through the whole Gospels. Generally, through the whole Gospels. Generally, through the whole Gospels. Generally, they're like bumbling along. Like, Jesus they're like bumbling along. Like, Jesus they're like bumbling along. Like, Jesus is having to tell Peter, "Get behind me, is having to tell Peter, "Get behind me, is having to tell Peter, "Get behind me, Satan." when he's telling him he's going Satan." when he's telling him he's going Satan." when he's telling him he's going to die die. And then you've got, you to die die. And then you've got, you to die die. And then you've got, you know, all of them are fleeing. The know, all of them are fleeing. The know, all of them are fleeing. The rooster crows three times. It's not a rooster crows three times. It's not a rooster crows three times. It's not a pretty scene. And then pretty scene. And then pretty scene. And then the people who come are women who can't the people who come are women who can't the people who come are women who can't even testify in a court of law, I think. even testify in a court of law, I think. even testify in a court of law, I think. Is that the That's true. Yeah. The Is that the That's true. Yeah. The Is that the That's true. Yeah. The earliest testimony is being from women earliest testimony is being from women earliest testimony is being from women is very fascinating. Yeah. So, if you're is very fascinating. Yeah. So, if you're is very fascinating. Yeah. So, if you're trying to prove your point, you're not trying to prove your point, you're not trying to prove your point, you're not going to have women at the tomb, either. going to have women at the tomb, either. going to have women at the tomb, either. Yeah, I mean, so it's like the whole Yeah, I mean, so it's like the whole Yeah, I mean, so it's like the whole scene scene scene >> doesn't really, unless it's true, >> doesn't really, unless it's true, >> doesn't really, unless it's true, doesn't really do service to prove their doesn't really do service to prove their doesn't really do service to prove their point. Right. I mean, you could ask a point. Right. I mean, you could ask a point. Right. I mean, you could ask a person, "Look, if you're concocting a person, "Look, if you're concocting a person, "Look, if you're concocting a story of a resurrection, is this the way story of a resurrection, is this the way story of a resurrection, is this the way you would have done it?"

you would have done it?" you would have done it?" You would not have had women there. You You would not have had women there. You You would not have had women there. You would not have had uh no one there to would not have had uh no one there to would not have had uh no one there to see Jesus rise out of the dead uh see Jesus rise out of the dead uh see Jesus rise out of the dead uh himself. It it it comes across as a himself. It it it comes across as a himself. It it it comes across as a story with the with a real true ring of story with the with a real true ring of story with the with a real true ring of authenticity to it because of the lack authenticity to it because of the lack authenticity to it because of the lack of of those embellished parts of the of of those embellished parts of the of of those embellished parts of the narrative. And I I think that that narrative. And I I think that that narrative. And I I think that that speaks to its its historical speaks to its its historical speaks to its its historical trustworthiness. I want to ask a trustworthiness. I want to ask a trustworthiness. I want to ask a follow-up question. Um when we're follow-up question. Um when we're follow-up question. Um when we're talking so much about the eyewitness talking so much about the eyewitness talking so much about the eyewitness accounts, what does Thomas's physical accounts, what does Thomas's physical accounts, what does Thomas's physical interaction with Jesus add to the interaction with Jesus add to the interaction with Jesus add to the testimony? Because it's not just I saw testimony? Because it's not just I saw testimony? Because it's not just I saw you with my eyes, it's I actually you with my eyes, it's I actually you with my eyes, it's I actually touched the scars, the wounds. Like, touched the scars, the wounds. Like, touched the scars, the wounds. Like, what does that add to the evidence? what does that add to the evidence? what does that add to the evidence? Yeah, well, Thomas is a classic case of Yeah, well, Thomas is a classic case of Yeah, well, Thomas is a classic case of doubting, of course, which is why he doubting, of course, which is why he doubting, of course, which is why he came came to be known as doubting Thomas came came to be known as doubting Thomas came came to be known as doubting Thomas historically. I think we should give historically. I think we should give historically. I think we should give Thomas a bit of a break. Thomas a bit of a break. Thomas a bit of a break. Um and and the reason is because the New Um and and the reason is because the New Um and and the reason is because the New Testament talks about doubt a lot and is Testament talks about doubt a lot and is Testament talks about doubt a lot and is very compassionate to those who doubt. very compassionate to those who doubt. very compassionate to those who doubt. Um and the book of Jude says, "Have Um and the book of Jude says, "Have Um and the book of Jude says, "Have mercy on those who doubt." And I would mercy on those who doubt." And I would mercy on those who doubt." And I would point to the fact that Jesus is actually point to the fact that Jesus is actually point to the fact that Jesus is actually quite gentle with Thomas. He doesn't quite gentle with Thomas. He doesn't quite gentle with Thomas. He doesn't chide him. He doesn't wag his finger at chide him. He doesn't wag his finger at chide him. He doesn't wag his finger at him. Yes, Jesus says, "Well, look, him. Yes, Jesus says, "Well, look, him. Yes, Jesus says, "Well, look, blessed are those who can believe blessed are those who can believe blessed are those who can believe without seeing." Okay, fair enough. I without seeing." Okay, fair enough. I without seeing." Okay, fair enough. I mean, that's an amazing thing. But he mean, that's an amazing thing. But he mean, that's an amazing thing. But he doesn't withhold the evidence for doesn't withhold the evidence for doesn't withhold the evidence for Thomas. He says, "You know, you think Thomas. He says, "You know, you think Thomas. He says, "You know, you think I'm I'm a ghost? You think I'm a spirit?

I'm I'm a ghost? You think I'm a spirit? I'm I'm a ghost? You think I'm a spirit? Come up and and touch me. Put your put Come up and and touch me. Put your put Come up and and touch me. Put your put your hand in my side." And you'll notice your hand in my side." And you'll notice your hand in my side." And you'll notice there's a trend here. Jesus does a there's a trend here. Jesus does a there's a trend here. Jesus does a number of things to reassure his number of things to reassure his number of things to reassure his disciples that he's really alive. Uh the disciples that he's really alive. Uh the disciples that he's really alive. Uh the Thomas thing shows that he can touch the Thomas thing shows that he can touch the Thomas thing shows that he can touch the wound. It's physical. He's real. He's wound. It's physical. He's real. He's wound. It's physical. He's real. He's not a ghost. He often, you'll notice in not a ghost. He often, you'll notice in not a ghost. He often, you'll notice in the resurrection accounts, eats meals the resurrection accounts, eats meals the resurrection accounts, eats meals with his disciples. with his disciples. with his disciples. Um and and and and is is taking in food, Um and and and and is is taking in food, Um and and and and is is taking in food, which of course you're not going to do which of course you're not going to do which of course you're not going to do if you're a ghost. You're a real a real if you're a ghost. You're a real a real if you're a ghost. You're a real a real person. Um and so, these types of person. Um and so, these types of person. Um and so, these types of physical encounters reassure us that, physical encounters reassure us that, physical encounters reassure us that, first of all, it's a physical first of all, it's a physical first of all, it's a physical resurrection, but it also shows us that resurrection, but it also shows us that resurrection, but it also shows us that there's they're not imagining this. This there's they're not imagining this. This there's they're not imagining this. This isn't a hallucination. They're not just isn't a hallucination. They're not just isn't a hallucination. They're not just seeing a spirit. That Jesus is actually seeing a spirit. That Jesus is actually seeing a spirit. That Jesus is actually physically there. Um and the other thing physically there. Um and the other thing physically there. Um and the other thing about the wound in the side that's about the wound in the side that's about the wound in the side that's fascinating is it tells us that it's the fascinating is it tells us that it's the fascinating is it tells us that it's the same Jesus, okay? Yes, he's healed. He's same Jesus, okay? Yes, he's healed. He's same Jesus, okay? Yes, he's healed. He's alive and has a resurrected body. It's alive and has a resurrected body. It's alive and has a resurrected body. It's not a different Jesus. You can see the not a different Jesus. You can see the not a different Jesus. You can see the continuity between his old life and his continuity between his old life and his continuity between his old life and his new life, and Thomas then believes. And new life, and Thomas then believes. And new life, and Thomas then believes. And what the text tells us is that he bows what the text tells us is that he bows what the text tells us is that he bows down, he worships Jesus, and he's he down, he worships Jesus, and he's he down, he worships Jesus, and he's he calls him my Lord and my God. And I calls him my Lord and my God. And I calls him my Lord and my God. And I think that is really the the theological think that is really the the theological think that is really the the theological point of Easter right there, which is point of Easter right there, which is point of Easter right there, which is that the resurrection, if true, leads to that the resurrection, if true, leads to that the resurrection, if true, leads to worship and to acknowledgement that worship and to acknowledgement that worship and to acknowledgement that Jesus is who he claims that he is, not Jesus is who he claims that he is, not Jesus is who he claims that he is, not just a good moral teacher, not just a just a good moral teacher, not just a just a good moral teacher, not just a prophet, but he is the Lord. And Thomas prophet, but he is the Lord. And Thomas prophet, but he is the Lord. And Thomas bows down and worships him. And notice bows down and worships him. And notice bows down and worships him. And notice Jesus doesn't reject the worship. He Jesus doesn't reject the worship. He Jesus doesn't reject the worship. He doesn't say, "Oh, I'm just a guy. Don't doesn't say, "Oh, I'm just a guy. Don't doesn't say, "Oh, I'm just a guy. Don't worship me." No, he receives the worship me." No, he receives the worship me." No, he receives the worship, um and acknowledges that's worship, um and acknowledges that's worship, um and acknowledges that's exactly the proper response to the exactly the proper response to the exactly the proper response to the resurrection. It's to it's to bow down resurrection. It's to it's to bow down resurrection. It's to it's to bow down and worship. You you said something that

and worship. You you said something that and worship. You you said something that I do want to just say that I think is I do want to just say that I think is I do want to just say that I think is really important, and that was in our really important, and that was in our really important, and that was in our resurrected bodies, we will be able to resurrected bodies, we will be able to resurrected bodies, we will be able to eat food. And I just want to celebrate eat food. And I just want to celebrate eat food. And I just want to celebrate that. that. that. >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] >> Exactly. [laughter] The The V D is the name of the podcast. The The V D is the name of the podcast. The The V D is the name of the podcast. The kingdom. Yeah, so um Well, no, the The kingdom. Yeah, so um Well, no, the The kingdom. Yeah, so um Well, no, the eating of food, I mean, it's joking eating of food, I mean, it's joking eating of food, I mean, it's joking aside, we're all excited to to know that aside, we're all excited to to know that aside, we're all excited to to know that in the new heavens and the new earth in the new heavens and the new earth in the new heavens and the new earth there'll be food and we'll be eating it. there'll be food and we'll be eating it. there'll be food and we'll be eating it. But we also know that the Bible But we also know that the Bible But we also know that the Bible describes that sort of consummation, describes that sort of consummation, describes that sort of consummation, that eschatological reality of of the that eschatological reality of of the that eschatological reality of of the final stage of life as a feast, right? final stage of life as a feast, right? final stage of life as a feast, right? The the great wedding feast of the lamb, The the great wedding feast of the lamb, The the great wedding feast of the lamb, that that the idea that we're all that that the idea that we're all that that the idea that we're all together and we're we're celebrating. So together and we're we're celebrating. So together and we're we're celebrating. So there's there's food, there's wine, there's there's food, there's wine, there's there's food, there's wine, there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a there's a celebratory dimension of it that the celebratory dimension of it that the celebratory dimension of it that the Bible repeatedly affirms. So it's not Bible repeatedly affirms. So it's not Bible repeatedly affirms. So it's not just going to be food, it's going to be just going to be food, it's going to be just going to be food, it's going to be a feast and it's going to be the best a feast and it's going to be the best a feast and it's going to be the best feast and and who will be there? Jesus, feast and and who will be there? Jesus, feast and and who will be there? Jesus, right? With his own resurrected body right? With his own resurrected body right? With his own resurrected body uh participating in the feast with us. uh participating in the feast with us. uh participating in the feast with us. You know, Mike, we have beliefs about a You know, Mike, we have beliefs about a You know, Mike, we have beliefs about a lot of different things, right? I mean, lot of different things, right? I mean, lot of different things, right? I mean, we we just have a lot of different we we just have a lot of different we we just have a lot of different beliefs. Like um we might believe that beliefs. Like um we might believe that beliefs. Like um we might believe that one day scientists are going to discover one day scientists are going to discover one day scientists are going to discover life on other planets. And that's not life on other planets. And that's not life on other planets. And that's not whether you believe that or not, like whether you believe that or not, like whether you believe that or not, like that's probably not going to have a huge that's probably not going to have a huge that's probably not going to have a huge impact on how you live the just mundane impact on how you live the just mundane impact on how you live the just mundane moments of your day. Like that that is a moments of your day. Like that that is a moments of your day. Like that that is a belief you can hold or not hold and belief you can hold or not hold and belief you can hold or not hold and really your life is no different. Uh really your life is no different. Uh really your life is no different. Uh you know, because of your belief about you know, because of your belief about you know, because of your belief about that. And there's a thousand things that that. And there's a thousand things that that. And there's a thousand things that are like that. But this, what we're are like that. But this, what we're are like that. But this, what we're talking about today, the belief in the talking about today, the belief in the talking about today, the belief in the resurrection, that Jesus bodily rose

resurrection, that Jesus bodily rose resurrection, that Jesus bodily rose from the dead on a day in history, um from the dead on a day in history, um from the dead on a day in history, um that actually has tremendous impact on that actually has tremendous impact on that actually has tremendous impact on just how we live our lives and the just how we live our lives and the just how we live our lives and the moments of our days. So can you, no pun moments of our days. So can you, no pun moments of our days. So can you, no pun intended, can you flesh that out a intended, can you flesh that out a intended, can you flesh that out a little bit for us? That's a good pun, little bit for us? That's a good pun, little bit for us? That's a good pun, actually. Um because it is actually. Um because it is actually. Um because it is >> Thanks. an infleshed phenomenon. Um >> Thanks. an infleshed phenomenon. Um >> Thanks. an infleshed phenomenon. Um Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I would say not Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I would say not Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I I would say not only do do beliefs of other groups or only do do beliefs of other groups or only do do beliefs of other groups or other religions maybe don't change your other religions maybe don't change your other religions maybe don't change your life that much, I would also add that life that much, I would also add that life that much, I would also add that that not every Christian doctrine's as that not every Christian doctrine's as that not every Christian doctrine's as central as other Christian doctrines. central as other Christian doctrines. central as other Christian doctrines. And this particular belief is central to And this particular belief is central to And this particular belief is central to everything. I don't even know how you everything. I don't even know how you everything. I don't even know how you could overstate the centrality of the could overstate the centrality of the could overstate the centrality of the resurrection. And let me just lay out resurrection. And let me just lay out resurrection. And let me just lay out some of the things that the some of the things that the some of the things that the implications from it. One, and the most implications from it. One, and the most implications from it. One, and the most core implication is that Jesus rose from core implication is that Jesus rose from core implication is that Jesus rose from the dead, then that vindicates Jesus' the dead, then that vindicates Jesus' the dead, then that vindicates Jesus' identity. identity. identity. He claimed to be the son of God. He He claimed to be the son of God. He He claimed to be the son of God. He claimed claimed to be the Lord in flesh. claimed claimed to be the Lord in flesh. claimed claimed to be the Lord in flesh. And you might doubt it. Someone might And you might doubt it. Someone might And you might doubt it. Someone might go, "Well, I'm not sure I really believe go, "Well, I'm not sure I really believe go, "Well, I'm not sure I really believe Jesus is the son of God. I don't think Jesus is the son of God. I don't think Jesus is the son of God. I don't think he's really God in the flesh. I don't he's really God in the flesh. I don't he's really God in the flesh. I don't think he's really all that he says he think he's really all that he says he think he's really all that he says he is. I don't think he's the Messiah. He's is. I don't think he's the Messiah. He's is. I don't think he's the Messiah. He's just a good moral teacher."

just a good moral teacher." just a good moral teacher." But Jesus predicted his own death and But Jesus predicted his own death and But Jesus predicted his own death and predicted his own resurrection. So, if predicted his own resurrection. So, if predicted his own resurrection. So, if he rose from the dead, then then that he rose from the dead, then then that he rose from the dead, then then that vindicates his identity. So, the the vindicates his identity. So, the the vindicates his identity. So, the the number one thing the resurrection does number one thing the resurrection does number one thing the resurrection does is it tells us who Jesus is. And it is it tells us who Jesus is. And it is it tells us who Jesus is. And it proves that he's who who he says he is. proves that he's who who he says he is. proves that he's who who he says he is. So, there's no monumental question So, there's no monumental question So, there's no monumental question bigger than who is Jesus, and the bigger than who is Jesus, and the bigger than who is Jesus, and the resurrection answers it. Okay, here's resurrection answers it. Okay, here's resurrection answers it. Okay, here's the second thing the resurrection does. the second thing the resurrection does. the second thing the resurrection does. Is it actually shows us that the Is it actually shows us that the Is it actually shows us that the sacrifice on the cross was was received, sacrifice on the cross was was received, sacrifice on the cross was was received, if you will, by God. It was It was seen if you will, by God. It was It was seen if you will, by God. It was It was seen as acceptable. That Jesus' resurrection, as acceptable. That Jesus' resurrection, as acceptable. That Jesus' resurrection, in one sense, shows that his his death in one sense, shows that his his death in one sense, shows that his his death was was was uh sufficient to to pay for our sins. uh sufficient to to pay for our sins. uh sufficient to to pay for our sins. That it wasn't a rejected sacrifice. That it wasn't a rejected sacrifice. That it wasn't a rejected sacrifice. That he's alive and alive forevermore. That he's alive and alive forevermore. That he's alive and alive forevermore. Um what does that mean? That means Jesus Um what does that mean? That means Jesus Um what does that mean? That means Jesus has conquered death. has conquered death. has conquered death. And he's conquered sin. And he's conquered sin. And he's conquered sin. And if he's conquered sin, then there's And if he's conquered sin, then there's And if he's conquered sin, then there's hope for salvation, there's hope for hope for salvation, there's hope for hope for salvation, there's hope for forgiveness, and there's hope to conquer forgiveness, and there's hope to conquer forgiveness, and there's hope to conquer death. And look, talk about a practical death. And look, talk about a practical death. And look, talk about a practical implication of life. Every one of us in implication of life. Every one of us in implication of life. Every one of us in life, our whole life is, if we admit it, life, our whole life is, if we admit it, life, our whole life is, if we admit it, is spent somehow trying to avoid death is spent somehow trying to avoid death is spent somehow trying to avoid death at some level. Whether it's health, at some level. Whether it's health, at some level. Whether it's health, whether it's safety, whether it's aging, whether it's safety, whether it's aging, whether it's safety, whether it's aging, death death death is always in the back death death death is always in the back death death death is always in the back of our mind. Now, there's a solution.

of our mind. Now, there's a solution. of our mind. Now, there's a solution. You actually have a solution to the You actually have a solution to the You actually have a solution to the problem of death. And then the third problem of death. And then the third problem of death. And then the third thing the resurrection does, and I think thing the resurrection does, and I think thing the resurrection does, and I think it's so amazing in terms of its impact it's so amazing in terms of its impact it's so amazing in terms of its impact on our lives, it gives us our hope for on our lives, it gives us our hope for on our lives, it gives us our hope for the future. Someday, where are we going the future. Someday, where are we going the future. Someday, where are we going to be and how's our life going to be to be and how's our life going to be to be and how's our life going to be forever? Are we just going to die and forever? Are we just going to die and forever? Are we just going to die and become ash and that's where going to our become ash and that's where going to our become ash and that's where going to our existence is going to end? If we live existence is going to end? If we live existence is going to end? If we live on, what does that living on going to on, what does that living on going to on, what does that living on going to look like? And we know it because we'll look like? And we know it because we'll look like? And we know it because we'll have a resurrected body that will live have a resurrected body that will live have a resurrected body that will live forever. So, the person who reckons with forever. So, the person who reckons with forever. So, the person who reckons with the resurrection has to ask, "What's my the resurrection has to ask, "What's my the resurrection has to ask, "What's my future? future? future? What what Where am I going to end up?" What what Where am I going to end up?" What what Where am I going to end up?" And And answer 100% depends on whether And And answer 100% depends on whether And And answer 100% depends on whether you find yourself embracing Christ's you find yourself embracing Christ's you find yourself embracing Christ's resurrection by faith cuz if you embrace resurrection by faith cuz if you embrace resurrection by faith cuz if you embrace Christ's resurrection by faith, then you Christ's resurrection by faith, then you Christ's resurrection by faith, then you will be promised one of your own will be promised one of your own will be promised one of your own someday. someday. someday. I always think of how 1 Corinthians 15 I always think of how 1 Corinthians 15 I always think of how 1 Corinthians 15 ends. It always It is He goes through ends. It always It is He goes through ends. It always It is He goes through all the glories of the resurrections and all the glories of the resurrections and all the glories of the resurrections and then he ends with that therefore. then he ends with that therefore. then he ends with that therefore. Therefore, my brothers, you know, be Therefore, my brothers, you know, be Therefore, my brothers, you know, be steadfast, immovable, always abounding steadfast, immovable, always abounding steadfast, immovable, always abounding in the work of the Lord because you know in the work of the Lord because you know in the work of the Lord because you know that your labor in the Lord is not in that your labor in the Lord is not in that your labor in the Lord is not in vain. And I think what an encouragement.

vain. And I think what an encouragement. vain. And I think what an encouragement. Um Um Um the the resurrection is true, so the the the resurrection is true, so the the the resurrection is true, so the life we're living matters. You know, life we're living matters. You know, life we're living matters. You know, because it would all be vanity. It it I because it would all be vanity. It it I because it would all be vanity. It it I mean Yeah, you have a purpose in your mean Yeah, you have a purpose in your mean Yeah, you have a purpose in your life that really is valid. It's not just life that really is valid. It's not just life that really is valid. It's not just a self-declared purpose. You're not just a self-declared purpose. You're not just a self-declared purpose. You're not just making up your own meaning. It's a making up your own meaning. It's a making up your own meaning. It's a meaning that's real and genuine outside meaning that's real and genuine outside meaning that's real and genuine outside yourself that you're following. And yourself that you're following. And yourself that you're following. And you're right, and it makes your work not you're right, and it makes your work not you're right, and it makes your work not in vain. in vain. in vain. If your work is for Jesus. If your work is for Jesus. If your work is for Jesus. Yeah, that's right. And so you genuinely Yeah, that's right. And so you genuinely Yeah, that's right. And so you genuinely you wake up in the morning and you're you wake up in the morning and you're you wake up in the morning and you're like, oh, this is part of a bigger like, oh, this is part of a bigger like, oh, this is part of a bigger story. So I get to participate in a in a story. So I get to participate in a in a story. So I get to participate in a in a bigger story that's happening and this bigger story that's happening and this bigger story that's happening and this one that doesn't end. Whereas, you know, one that doesn't end. Whereas, you know, one that doesn't end. Whereas, you know, for the non-Christian, there's not that for the non-Christian, there's not that for the non-Christian, there's not that hope. Um you know, for the Christian, we hope. Um you know, for the Christian, we hope. Um you know, for the Christian, we look at all the things that come into look at all the things that come into look at all the things that come into our lives and and we can say it's all our lives and and we can say it's all our lives and and we can say it's all pointing to a resurrection hope that pointing to a resurrection hope that pointing to a resurrection hope that that one day these things will be that one day these things will be that one day these things will be redeemed. Um and and I think that's redeemed. Um and and I think that's redeemed. Um and and I think that's what's, you know, separates the what's, you know, separates the what's, you know, separates the Christian and why we can be people of Christian and why we can be people of Christian and why we can be people of hope. Even when the world's falling hope. Even when the world's falling hope. Even when the world's falling apart, we live differently in light of apart, we live differently in light of apart, we live differently in light of the resurrection. Okay, Mike, I have the resurrection. Okay, Mike, I have the resurrection. Okay, Mike, I have another follow-up question that I've another follow-up question that I've another follow-up question that I've been curious about for a long time. So been curious about for a long time. So been curious about for a long time. So the the gospel accounts record this, you the the gospel accounts record this, you the the gospel accounts record this, you know, really know, really know, really amazing detail that the clothes that amazing detail that the clothes that amazing detail that the clothes that Jesus had been wearing, his grave Jesus had been wearing, his grave Jesus had been wearing, his grave clothes, were folded. Um I I I need to clothes, were folded. Um I I I need to clothes, were folded. Um I I I need to look it up to get the exact wording, but look it up to get the exact wording, but look it up to get the exact wording, but they're folded. Is that significant?

they're folded. Is that significant? they're folded. Is that significant? That just seems like such a specific That just seems like such a specific That just seems like such a specific detail. So, what Why is it included? detail. So, what Why is it included? detail. So, what Why is it included? Does it mean anything? I mean, Jesus was Does it mean anything? I mean, Jesus was Does it mean anything? I mean, Jesus was a neat freak. Is that what Exactly. He a neat freak. Is that what Exactly. He a neat freak. Is that what Exactly. He really cares that things were neatly really cares that things were neatly really cares that things were neatly folded. folded. folded. >> significant data point. It's >> significant data point. It's >> significant data point. It's interesting, John is the one who tells interesting, John is the one who tells interesting, John is the one who tells us this data point. us this data point. us this data point. And it it really is something that would And it it really is something that would And it it really is something that would have resonated with people in the have resonated with people in the have resonated with people in the ancient world because ancient world because ancient world because in the ancient world, it was grave in the ancient world, it was grave in the ancient world, it was grave robbers were very common in the ancient robbers were very common in the ancient robbers were very common in the ancient world. This was a standard thing that world. This was a standard thing that world. This was a standard thing that would happen because sometimes in the would happen because sometimes in the would happen because sometimes in the ancient world, you would you would you ancient world, you would you would you ancient world, you would you would you would bury a body or you would bury would bury a body or you would bury would bury a body or you would bury things in the tomb and grave robbers things in the tomb and grave robbers things in the tomb and grave robbers would come and take it. And the linen would come and take it. And the linen would come and take it. And the linen clothes that Jesus was buried in would clothes that Jesus was buried in would clothes that Jesus was buried in would have been very valuable. Those were have been very valuable. Those were have been very valuable. Those were Those would have been clothes that Those would have been clothes that Those would have been clothes that someone would have wanted to steal. So, someone would have wanted to steal. So, someone would have wanted to steal. So, the idea of someone breaking into a tomb the idea of someone breaking into a tomb the idea of someone breaking into a tomb and stealing and robbing the tomb would and stealing and robbing the tomb would and stealing and robbing the tomb would have been normal, but if they did, they have been normal, but if they did, they have been normal, but if they did, they would have left the body and taken the would have left the body and taken the would have left the body and taken the clothes. clothes. clothes. But when the disciples showed up, what But when the disciples showed up, what But when the disciples showed up, what they find is the body's gone, but the they find is the body's gone, but the they find is the body's gone, but the clothes are there. clothes are there. clothes are there. So, it's a completely reverse scenario. So, it's a completely reverse scenario. So, it's a completely reverse scenario. And what's interesting about it is that And what's interesting about it is that And what's interesting about it is that that's what's so stunning about what you that's what's so stunning about what you that's what's so stunning about what you see is that you know, that is completely see is that you know, that is completely see is that you know, that is completely abnormal. abnormal. abnormal. If if if the if the if the body was was If if if the if the if the body was was If if if the if the if the body was was was gone, was gone, was gone, but not the clothes, you're like, well, but not the clothes, you're like, well, but not the clothes, you're like, well, that's not what a grave robber would do.

that's not what a grave robber would do. that's not what a grave robber would do. So, what happened to the body? And why So, what happened to the body? And why So, what happened to the body? And why were the clothes still here? It actually were the clothes still here? It actually were the clothes still here? It actually tells us in John's gospel that when tells us in John's gospel that when tells us in John's gospel that when Peter came into the tomb, he saw the Peter came into the tomb, he saw the Peter came into the tomb, he saw the clothes and believed. And so, what you clothes and believed. And so, what you clothes and believed. And so, what you have is a very clear moment where he's have is a very clear moment where he's have is a very clear moment where he's like, wait a second, that's not normal. like, wait a second, that's not normal. like, wait a second, that's not normal. Now, in terms of the clothes themselves, Now, in terms of the clothes themselves, Now, in terms of the clothes themselves, there's actually two pieces to it. there's actually two pieces to it. there's actually two pieces to it. There's the clothes that were wrapped There's the clothes that were wrapped There's the clothes that were wrapped around around around his main body and then it seems like his main body and then it seems like his main body and then it seems like there's some sort of headpiece, some there's some sort of headpiece, some there's some sort of headpiece, some sort of separate piece that's folded off sort of separate piece that's folded off sort of separate piece that's folded off to the side. It's hard to tell from the to the side. It's hard to tell from the to the side. It's hard to tell from the wording of John, but it seems like the wording of John, but it seems like the wording of John, but it seems like the the clothes may even be laying a little the clothes may even be laying a little the clothes may even be laying a little bit like where the body would have been. bit like where the body would have been. bit like where the body would have been. And so, there's a little bit of a And so, there's a little bit of a And so, there's a little bit of a question about whether the clothes are question about whether the clothes are question about whether the clothes are there, but the body's not in them there, but the body's not in them there, but the body's not in them anymore. And whether that's part of the anymore. And whether that's part of the anymore. And whether that's part of the the shock that that that would have been the shock that that that would have been the shock that that that would have been seen by Peter and John seen by Peter and John seen by Peter and John in that account. But regardless, it just in that account. But regardless, it just in that account. But regardless, it just highlights the the the phenomenon here highlights the the the phenomenon here highlights the the the phenomenon here is that that that there's tons of is that that that there's tons of is that that that there's tons of evidence in all these different evidence in all these different evidence in all these different intersecting places that suggest that intersecting places that suggest that intersecting places that suggest that this is not explainable by simply saying this is not explainable by simply saying this is not explainable by simply saying grave robbers took Jesus or something grave robbers took Jesus or something grave robbers took Jesus or something like that or they took the body or stole like that or they took the body or stole like that or they took the body or stole the body cuz the clothes were left the body cuz the clothes were left the body cuz the clothes were left behind. And if the disciples had stolen behind. And if the disciples had stolen behind. And if the disciples had stolen the body to fake it, they would have the body to fake it, they would have the body to fake it, they would have taken the clothes, too.

taken the clothes, too. taken the clothes, too. Um so, the fact that the clothes are Um so, the fact that the clothes are Um so, the fact that the clothes are there and the body's gone, I think is there and the body's gone, I think is there and the body's gone, I think is great evidence for the resurrection. great evidence for the resurrection. great evidence for the resurrection. Fascinating. Well, I want to close with Fascinating. Well, I want to close with Fascinating. Well, I want to close with this question. Um if someone's listening this question. Um if someone's listening this question. Um if someone's listening today, maybe they're doubting the truths today, maybe they're doubting the truths today, maybe they're doubting the truths of Christianity, they're doubting the of Christianity, they're doubting the of Christianity, they're doubting the resurrection, maybe they're not yet a resurrection, maybe they're not yet a resurrection, maybe they're not yet a Christian, what encouragement [snorts] Christian, what encouragement [snorts] Christian, what encouragement [snorts] would you give them? Um what would you would you give them? Um what would you would you give them? Um what would you hope to say to them um as they think hope to say to them um as they think hope to say to them um as they think about the resurrection and they think about the resurrection and they think about the resurrection and they think about the life and death and about the life and death and about the life and death and resurrection of Jesus? Yeah, I think resurrection of Jesus? Yeah, I think resurrection of Jesus? Yeah, I think everybody listening to this program, everybody listening to this program, everybody listening to this program, regardless of whether they're a regardless of whether they're a regardless of whether they're a Christian or not, is is is on a similar Christian or not, is is is on a similar Christian or not, is is is on a similar quest in life. And what I mean by that, quest in life. And what I mean by that, quest in life. And what I mean by that, all of us want meaning, all of us want meaning, all of us want meaning, we want purpose, we want hope. we want purpose, we want hope. we want purpose, we want hope. Um and we search so many places for it. Um and we search so many places for it. Um and we search so many places for it. Um and we think we're going to get it Um and we think we're going to get it Um and we think we're going to get it all kinds of locations. They want to all kinds of locations. They want to all kinds of locations. They want to know their their their life counts for know their their their life counts for know their their their life counts for something then they want to know their something then they want to know their something then they want to know their security after they die. They don't know security after they die. They don't know security after they die. They don't know how to face the problem of death and how to face the problem of death and how to face the problem of death and suffering and they don't know where suffering and they don't know where suffering and they don't know where they're going to end up in eternity. they're going to end up in eternity. they're going to end up in eternity. Um and what I would tell the listener, Um and what I would tell the listener, Um and what I would tell the listener, particularly if they're a doubter, is particularly if they're a doubter, is particularly if they're a doubter, is that Jesus Christ gives you the answer that Jesus Christ gives you the answer that Jesus Christ gives you the answer to each of those things.

to each of those things. to each of those things. And it and it and it and he only gives And it and it and it and he only gives And it and it and it and he only gives you the answer to each of those things you the answer to each of those things you the answer to each of those things because he's alive, because he rose from because he's alive, because he rose from because he's alive, because he rose from the dead. the dead. the dead. Um and so, if you're stumbling around Um and so, if you're stumbling around Um and so, if you're stumbling around the the world trying to find those the the world trying to find those the the world trying to find those things, I would say rest assured that things, I would say rest assured that things, I would say rest assured that Jesus can provide them. And when you Jesus can provide them. And when you Jesus can provide them. And when you doubt the resurrection, you can say, doubt the resurrection, you can say, doubt the resurrection, you can say, "But but there's so much evidence that "But but there's so much evidence that "But but there's so much evidence that that he's alive, not just simply the that he's alive, not just simply the that he's alive, not just simply the strong evidence we've talked about, but strong evidence we've talked about, but strong evidence we've talked about, but the abiding nature of the early the abiding nature of the early the abiding nature of the early Christian movement." And honestly, the Christian movement." And honestly, the Christian movement." And honestly, the existing Christian movement even today, existing Christian movement even today, existing Christian movement even today, that after these thousands of years that after these thousands of years that after these thousands of years still pressing on, shows you that still pressing on, shows you that still pressing on, shows you that there's a power there there's a power there there's a power there that really is genuine. So, if someone that really is genuine. So, if someone that really is genuine. So, if someone then embraces that, embraces the then embraces that, embraces the then embraces that, embraces the resurrection of Jesus, they they can resurrection of Jesus, they they can resurrection of Jesus, they they can find those things, meaning, purpose, find those things, meaning, purpose, find those things, meaning, purpose, eternal security, eternal security, eternal security, uh those are exactly the same things uh those are exactly the same things uh those are exactly the same things that Jesus came to bring. So, um if that Jesus came to bring. So, um if that Jesus came to bring. So, um if someone doubts, um don't give up the someone doubts, um don't give up the someone doubts, um don't give up the search. Keep looking, and I think search. Keep looking, and I think search. Keep looking, and I think they'll find that the the resurrection they'll find that the the resurrection they'll find that the the resurrection is going to prove to be true in the end. is going to prove to be true in the end. is going to prove to be true in the end. Oh, praise God. Well, I would encourage Oh, praise God. Well, I would encourage Oh, praise God. Well, I would encourage I I think we'll probably weave this into I I think we'll probably weave this into I I think we'll probably weave this into one of our discussion questions um that one of our discussion questions um that one of our discussion questions um that we provide for you, but I would just we provide for you, but I would just we provide for you, but I would just encourage anybody listening to spend encourage anybody listening to spend encourage anybody listening to spend some time in 1 Corinthians 15, and think some time in 1 Corinthians 15, and think some time in 1 Corinthians 15, and think about it. Read it in light of this about it. Read it in light of this about it. Read it in light of this conversation.

conversation. conversation. Um maybe make notes on the places that Um maybe make notes on the places that Um maybe make notes on the places that you saw like Mike was talking about you saw like Mike was talking about you saw like Mike was talking about where there is historical evidence to where there is historical evidence to where there is historical evidence to the resurrection. Maybe make notes on the resurrection. Maybe make notes on the resurrection. Maybe make notes on where you see the implications and and where you see the implications and and where you see the implications and and the necessity of the resurrection for the necessity of the resurrection for the necessity of the resurrection for where we place our hope and and all that where we place our hope and and all that where we place our hope and and all that Christ has done for us. Um the Christ has done for us. Um the Christ has done for us. Um the centrality of it to our salvation. So, centrality of it to our salvation. So, centrality of it to our salvation. So, um I would encourage you to spend some um I would encourage you to spend some um I would encourage you to spend some time in 1 Corinthians 15. But, before we time in 1 Corinthians 15. But, before we time in 1 Corinthians 15. But, before we end, you know, Melissa end, you know, Melissa end, you know, Melissa >> You said that was the last question, but >> You said that was the last question, but >> You said that was the last question, but it's not um because I now it's not um because I now it's not um because I now >> question. >> question. >> question. >> no, I saw you trying to do that. But, I >> no, I saw you trying to do that. But, I >> no, I saw you trying to do that. But, I have a question. have a question. have a question. >> Yeah. Yeah, so Mike, I'm just going to, >> Yeah. Yeah, so Mike, I'm just going to, >> Yeah. Yeah, so Mike, I'm just going to, you know, we're just all sitting around you know, we're just all sitting around you know, we're just all sitting around a coffee table right now, you know, a coffee table right now, you know, a coffee table right now, you know, maybe at your kitchen table, and I'm maybe at your kitchen table, and I'm maybe at your kitchen table, and I'm just going to kind of lean over and ask just going to kind of lean over and ask just going to kind of lean over and ask Mike a little question. Melissa, don't Mike a little question. Melissa, don't Mike a little question. Melissa, don't pay any attention right now, okay? But, pay any attention right now, okay? But, pay any attention right now, okay? But, Mike, we want to know something. We want Mike, we want to know something. We want Mike, we want to know something. We want to know something about Melissa that our to know something about Melissa that our to know something about Melissa that our listeners don't know and might surprise listeners don't know and might surprise listeners don't know and might surprise them. them. them. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, Melissa, you just You get back up a >> So, Melissa, you just You get back up a >> So, Melissa, you just You get back up a wonderful woman she is.

wonderful woman she is. wonderful woman she is. >> She is wonderful in so many things. >> She is wonderful in so many things. >> She is wonderful in so many things. >> We all have our little quirks and funny >> We all have our little quirks and funny >> We all have our little quirks and funny things in life. It I'm glad the things in life. It I'm glad the things in life. It I'm glad the question's not reversed cuz we we'd be question's not reversed cuz we we'd be question's not reversed cuz we we'd be another hour on the podcast. another hour on the podcast. another hour on the podcast. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Melissa to go through all mine. >> Melissa to go through all mine. >> Melissa to go through all mine. Um one of the funny little quirk she has Um one of the funny little quirk she has Um one of the funny little quirk she has is the way she she does something with is the way she she does something with is the way she she does something with her tea every morning. So, she'll spend her tea every morning. So, she'll spend her tea every morning. So, she'll spend all this time meticulously making her all this time meticulously making her all this time meticulously making her tea and get it just right. Even has a tea and get it just right. Even has a tea and get it just right. Even has a timer and it's just perfectly there and timer and it's just perfectly there and timer and it's just perfectly there and she'll take the first sip, she'll set it she'll take the first sip, she'll set it she'll take the first sip, she'll set it down and then she'll disappear to do down and then she'll disappear to do down and then she'll disappear to do something for 30 minutes. something for 30 minutes. something for 30 minutes. Um, up checking email then she'll come Um, up checking email then she'll come Um, up checking email then she'll come back and her tea's cold. So, she sticks back and her tea's cold. So, she sticks back and her tea's cold. So, she sticks it in the microwave, hits reheat, it in the microwave, hits reheat, it in the microwave, hits reheat, leaves, and forgets it's in there and leaves, and forgets it's in there and leaves, and forgets it's in there and then comes back and it's cold again. And then comes back and it's cold again. And then comes back and it's cold again. And this is a cycle all day long of her this is a cycle all day long of her this is a cycle all day long of her reheating her tea and then forgetting reheating her tea and then forgetting reheating her tea and then forgetting it's in the microwave and then coming it's in the microwave and then coming it's in the microwave and then coming back and it's cold and reheating her tea back and it's cold and reheating her tea back and it's cold and reheating her tea and it's in the microwave cold. And I and it's in the microwave cold. And I and it's in the microwave cold. And I can't tell you how many times I go into can't tell you how many times I go into can't tell you how many times I go into the kitchen, open the microwave, and the kitchen, open the microwave, and the kitchen, open the microwave, and there's her tea sitting right there in there's her tea sitting right there in there's her tea sitting right there in the microwave. And sometimes I'll take the microwave. And sometimes I'll take the microwave. And sometimes I'll take it and go bring it to her and like drink it and go bring it to her and like drink it and go bring it to her and like drink this tea which you so diligently made.

this tea which you so diligently made. this tea which you so diligently made. Now, to be fair, uh, she's so busy and Now, to be fair, uh, she's so busy and Now, to be fair, uh, she's so busy and so amazingly multitasking that the one so amazingly multitasking that the one so amazingly multitasking that the one thing she never gets to do is enjoy her thing she never gets to do is enjoy her thing she never gets to do is enjoy her tea which she loves. So, every once in a tea which she loves. So, every once in a tea which she loves. So, every once in a while we'll be at home and she'll have a while we'll be at home and she'll have a while we'll be at home and she'll have a slower day. Those are pretty rare. And slower day. Those are pretty rare. And slower day. Those are pretty rare. And she'll be able to enjoy her tea and I'm she'll be able to enjoy her tea and I'm she'll be able to enjoy her tea and I'm like, "See, this is this is the moment like, "See, this is this is the moment like, "See, this is this is the moment that you've been shooting for that you that you've been shooting for that you that you've been shooting for that you can't seem to get to another point in can't seem to get to another point in can't seem to get to another point in your life." your life." your life." >> aiming for. >> aiming for. >> aiming for. >> I know. It's such simple pleasures. >> I know. It's such simple pleasures. >> I know. It's such simple pleasures. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you just gave me a great Yeah. Well, you just gave me a great Yeah. Well, you just gave me a great gift idea, too. So, I am grateful. I am gift idea, too. So, I am grateful. I am gift idea, too. So, I am grateful. I am grateful for that. Well, Mike, we have grateful for that. Well, Mike, we have grateful for that. Well, Mike, we have been so looking forward to this been so looking forward to this been so looking forward to this conversation and we hope that everybody conversation and we hope that everybody conversation and we hope that everybody listening we hope that this has been not listening we hope that this has been not listening we hope that this has been not just encouraging but really helpful. just encouraging but really helpful. just encouraging but really helpful. And we, you know, we would ask you to And we, you know, we would ask you to And we, you know, we would ask you to consider sharing it with others. As consider sharing it with others. As consider sharing it with others. As you're entering into the Easter season, you're entering into the Easter season, you're entering into the Easter season, share this conversation with others and share this conversation with others and share this conversation with others and use it as a springboard for conversation use it as a springboard for conversation use it as a springboard for conversation about your beliefs and inviting others, about your beliefs and inviting others, about your beliefs and inviting others, um, to really understand [music] um, to really understand [music] um, to really understand [music] the the truth and the beauty of the the the truth and the beauty of the the the truth and the beauty of the resurrection. So, thank you for joining resurrection. So, thank you for joining resurrection. So, thank you for joining us for this episode of The Deep [music] us for this episode of The Deep [music] us for this episode of The Deep [music] Dish.