How AI Plays a Gospel Imitation Game (with Christopher Watkin) [Gospelbound Ep. 187]

People are spending eight, 10 hours a People are spending eight, 10 hours a day day day looking at [music] pictures of children looking at [music] pictures of children looking at [music] pictures of children being abused or or of horrific torture being abused or or of horrific torture being abused or or of horrific torture in order to [music] tag that data so in order to [music] tag that data so in order to [music] tag that data so that the AI doesn't produce that sort of that the AI doesn't produce that sort of that the AI doesn't produce that sort of I mean, [music] that's the level of I mean, [music] that's the level of I mean, [music] that's the level of horrific work that that that some people horrific work that that that some people horrific work that that that some people are doing [music] for very little pay are doing [music] for very little pay are doing [music] for very little pay indeed. >> You might think AI is the most exciting >> You might think AI is the most exciting technological development of all time technological development of all time technological development of all time and you've been vibe coding before the and you've been vibe coding before the and you've been vibe coding before the rest of us had even heard that term. rest of us had even heard that term. rest of us had even heard that term. Or maybe you think AI is the most Or maybe you think AI is the most Or maybe you think AI is the most dangerous technological development of dangerous technological development of dangerous technological development of all time and you're desperately hoping all time and you're desperately hoping all time and you're desperately hoping someone will step up to stop autonomous someone will step up to stop autonomous someone will step up to stop autonomous weapons and programs powerful enough to weapons and programs powerful enough to weapons and programs powerful enough to thwart any existing security system. thwart any existing security system. thwart any existing security system. Or maybe you're somewhere in the middle.

Or maybe you're somewhere in the middle. Or maybe you're somewhere in the middle. Maybe you still don't know what all the Maybe you still don't know what all the Maybe you still don't know what all the fuss is about. Well, no matter where you fuss is about. Well, no matter where you fuss is about. Well, no matter where you are, I know I can recommend a new single are, I know I can recommend a new single are, I know I can recommend a new single season TGC podcast called Silicon season TGC podcast called Silicon season TGC podcast called Silicon Spiritualities hosted by Christopher Spiritualities hosted by Christopher Spiritualities hosted by Christopher Watkin, a fellow at the Keller Center Watkin, a fellow at the Keller Center Watkin, a fellow at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. My friend for Cultural Apologetics. My friend for Cultural Apologetics. My friend Chris also contributed two chapters to Chris also contributed two chapters to Chris also contributed two chapters to the forthcoming book I edited with the forthcoming book I edited with the forthcoming book I edited with Scalar Flowers titled The AI Apocalypse: Scalar Flowers titled The AI Apocalypse: Scalar Flowers titled The AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Humanity. A Survival Guide for Humanity. A Survival Guide for Humanity. I love hearing Chris teach on just about I love hearing Chris teach on just about I love hearing Chris teach on just about anything, but his reflections on AI have anything, but his reflections on AI have anything, but his reflections on AI have been especially insightful to me and I'm been especially insightful to me and I'm been especially insightful to me and I'm eager to welcome him back now to eager to welcome him back now to eager to welcome him back now to Gospelbound to discuss these two new Gospelbound to discuss these two new Gospelbound to discuss these two new projects. Chris, thank you for joining projects. Chris, thank you for joining projects. Chris, thank you for joining me. me. me. >> It's lovely to be with you again, Colin. >> It's lovely to be with you again, Colin. >> It's lovely to be with you again, Colin. >> Chris, what is the spirituality or >> Chris, what is the spirituality or >> Chris, what is the spirituality or spiritualities of Silicon Valley? spiritualities of Silicon Valley? spiritualities of Silicon Valley? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, one idea one idea one idea driving the podcast is that driving the podcast is that driving the podcast is that artificial intelligence generally and artificial intelligence generally and artificial intelligence generally and companies in particular actually telling companies in particular actually telling companies in particular actually telling us a story.

us a story. us a story. And they're telling us a gospel story. And they're telling us a gospel story. And they're telling us a gospel story. It is not the Christian gospel, but it It is not the Christian gospel, but it It is not the Christian gospel, but it is a gospel. It is good news is a gospel. It is good news is a gospel. It is good news that they want us to to believe and to that they want us to to believe and to that they want us to to believe and to invest in. invest in. invest in. And it goes something like this. And it goes something like this. And it goes something like this. We are thwarted We are thwarted We are thwarted as human beings as human beings as human beings by our limitations by our limitations by our limitations and by our finitude. and by our finitude. and by our finitude. Uh the fact that we're not infinite and Uh the fact that we're not infinite and Uh the fact that we're not infinite and if only we could overcome if only we could overcome if only we could overcome [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] our limitations including mortality our limitations including mortality our limitations including mortality eventually, but in the short term eventually, but in the short term eventually, but in the short term efficiency, efficiency, efficiency, then the world would be a much better then the world would be a much better then the world would be a much better place and we'd all be happier. place and we'd all be happier. place and we'd all be happier. And AI having framed that problem then And AI having framed that problem then And AI having framed that problem then presents us with lo and behold presents presents us with lo and behold presents presents us with lo and behold presents us with the solution. Um which is that us with the solution. Um which is that us with the solution. Um which is that we can get more done more quickly with we can get more done more quickly with we can get more done more quickly with less friction by using these AI tools. less friction by using these AI tools. less friction by using these AI tools. And what often flies under the radar is And what often flies under the radar is And what often flies under the radar is that that is a very that that is a very that that is a very conventional conventional conventional religious story. It it's gospel shaped.

religious story. It it's gospel shaped. religious story. It it's gospel shaped. And therefore it's incredibly And therefore it's incredibly And therefore it's incredibly powerful and attractive to people. powerful and attractive to people. powerful and attractive to people. >> How did you come across this story? Is >> How did you come across this story? Is >> How did you come across this story? Is this explicit? this explicit? this explicit? Is this what they're saying? Do they Is this what they're saying? Do they Is this what they're saying? Do they recognize this uh recognize this uh recognize this uh this framing of the story or is this this framing of the story or is this this framing of the story or is this this Chris Watkin doing more of his this Chris Watkin doing more of his this Chris Watkin doing more of his diagnolization? How is How are you diagnolization? How is How are you diagnolization? How is How are you coming across this? coming across this? coming across this? >> Um [gasps] >> Um [gasps] >> Um [gasps] it it's there in in black and white from it it's there in in black and white from it it's there in in black and white from time to time. So there's a famous time to time. So there's a famous time to time. So there's a famous quotation from um quotation from um quotation from um some people at Google who said well you some people at Google who said well you some people at Google who said well you know what we're doing here is we're know what we're doing here is we're know what we're doing here is we're we're essentially we're building God. we're essentially we're building God. we're essentially we're building God. Um Um Um and there's and there's and there's books that that speak in wildly books that that speak in wildly books that that speak in wildly optimistic terms optimistic terms optimistic terms about what AI may achieve for society. about what AI may achieve for society. about what AI may achieve for society. Uh sort of unblushingly Uh sort of unblushingly Uh sort of unblushingly talking about utopias in which nobody talking about utopias in which nobody talking about utopias in which nobody need work if they don't want to. We can need work if they don't want to. We can need work if they don't want to. We can all survive on a universal basic income all survive on a universal basic income all survive on a universal basic income and everybody will be able to do and everybody will be able to do and everybody will be able to do whatever they want all day.

whatever they want all day. whatever they want all day. Um and so there are moments where this Um and so there are moments where this Um and so there are moments where this story story story simply asserts itself and you Oh, right, simply asserts itself and you Oh, right, simply asserts itself and you Oh, right, there it is. My goodness. Okay, that's there it is. My goodness. Okay, that's there it is. My goodness. Okay, that's that's really what you believe, is it? that's really what you believe, is it? that's really what you believe, is it? Um but it's sort of Um but it's sort of Um but it's sort of the implied background the implied background the implied background in a lot of the way that people speak in a lot of the way that people speak in a lot of the way that people speak about AI. about AI. about AI. That So, there's a lot of talk about, That So, there's a lot of talk about, That So, there's a lot of talk about, you know, we want to reduce friction in you know, we want to reduce friction in you know, we want to reduce friction in our lives. That the things that make our lives. That the things that make our lives. That the things that make life slow and difficult. life slow and difficult. life slow and difficult. And I think behind that is often these And I think behind that is often these And I think behind that is often these assumptions about what the big human assumptions about what the big human assumptions about what the big human problem is and what a solution to that problem is and what a solution to that problem is and what a solution to that problem will look like. problem will look like. problem will look like. Um namely that it's it's data-focused. Um namely that it's it's data-focused. Um namely that it's it's data-focused. And if we can throw enough data and And if we can throw enough data and And if we can throw enough data and compute at whatever problem we're compute at whatever problem we're compute at whatever problem we're facing, facing, facing, then we're will, you know, arrive at then we're will, you know, arrive at then we're will, you know, arrive at some sort of a some sort of a some sort of a paradise. And that there's a a famous paradise. And that there's a a famous paradise. And that there's a a famous quote by uh Demis Hassabis, the um uh quote by uh Demis Hassabis, the um uh quote by uh Demis Hassabis, the um uh CEO of Google DeepMind, and he's a a CEO of Google DeepMind, and he's a a CEO of Google DeepMind, and he's a a huge name in the AI world. And and his huge name in the AI world. And and his huge name in the AI world. And and his um sort of motto for DeepMind is first um sort of motto for DeepMind is first um sort of motto for DeepMind is first solve intelligence solve intelligence solve intelligence and then solve everything else. That and then solve everything else. That and then solve everything else. That intelligence will solve everything else.

intelligence will solve everything else. intelligence will solve everything else. Uh uh and and there's an implied Uh uh and and there's an implied Uh uh and and there's an implied assumption there, isn't there? That assumption there, isn't there? That assumption there, isn't there? That intelligence can solve everything else. intelligence can solve everything else. intelligence can solve everything else. Like once we have superintelligence, we Like once we have superintelligence, we Like once we have superintelligence, we have no problems anymore because all our have no problems anymore because all our have no problems anymore because all our problems can be solved by intelligence. problems can be solved by intelligence. problems can be solved by intelligence. Well, Well, Well, perhaps, but from a Christian point of perhaps, but from a Christian point of perhaps, but from a Christian point of view, it it view, it it view, it it doesn't really look like it's possible doesn't really look like it's possible doesn't really look like it's possible to solve the problem of sin by to solve the problem of sin by to solve the problem of sin by intelligence. And so, it's making intelligence. And so, it's making intelligence. And so, it's making assumptions about what sort of problems assumptions about what sort of problems assumptions about what sort of problems we face and how we can solve them. we face and how we can solve them. we face and how we can solve them. >> Do you think think some of this, Chris, >> Do you think think some of this, Chris, >> Do you think think some of this, Chris, is just consumer or investor hype? Just is just consumer or investor hype? Just is just consumer or investor hype? Just trying to get people to buy into what trying to get people to buy into what trying to get people to buy into what they're doing with that sense of they're doing with that sense of they're doing with that sense of inevitability leading toward utopia or inevitability leading toward utopia or inevitability leading toward utopia or is there something that these folks is there something that these folks is there something that these folks really believe? really believe? really believe? >> It would be naive, wouldn't it, to say >> It would be naive, wouldn't it, to say >> It would be naive, wouldn't it, to say there's no investor hype, none of this there's no investor hype, none of this there's no investor hype, none of this is marketing. is marketing. is marketing. But I do think it would be equally naive But I do think it would be equally naive But I do think it would be equally naive to say there's nothing but hype going on to say there's nothing but hype going on to say there's nothing but hype going on here. And And I think here. And And I think here. And And I think one of the reasons for that is that the one of the reasons for that is that the one of the reasons for that is that the Bible is very clear that we are stubborn Bible is very clear that we are stubborn Bible is very clear that we are stubborn idol manufacturers. We worship idol manufacturers. We worship idol manufacturers. We worship something, and if it's not the true God, something, and if it's not the true God, something, and if it's not the true God, we'll find something else we'll find something else we'll find something else to to put in that God-shaped hole, and to to put in that God-shaped hole, and to to put in that God-shaped hole, and we'll worship it.

we'll worship it. we'll worship it. And AI is so And AI is so And AI is so attractive attractive attractive as an object of worship for many, many as an object of worship for many, many as an object of worship for many, many reasons. Uh one of which is that it reasons. Uh one of which is that it reasons. Uh one of which is that it promises the earth, you know, super promises the earth, you know, super promises the earth, you know, super intelligence solving all our problems is intelligence solving all our problems is intelligence solving all our problems is is an apocalyptic is an apocalyptic is an apocalyptic story. That is an end game to to life story. That is an end game to to life story. That is an end game to to life and humanity, isn't it? And so, and humanity, isn't it? And so, and humanity, isn't it? And so, when people like when people like when people like uh Elon Musk say that humanity is simply uh Elon Musk say that humanity is simply uh Elon Musk say that humanity is simply a a boot loader a a boot loader a a boot loader for for for AGI, artificial general intelligence. AGI, artificial general intelligence. AGI, artificial general intelligence. You know, in other words, our only You know, in other words, our only You know, in other words, our only purpose in the big story of the universe purpose in the big story of the universe purpose in the big story of the universe is to get AI going, and then we're is to get AI going, and then we're is to get AI going, and then we're basically useless. basically useless. basically useless. There's a There's a whole salvation There's a There's a whole salvation There's a There's a whole salvation story. There's a whole apocalypse story. There's a whole apocalypse story. There's a whole apocalypse in there. in there. in there. And And And uh there are actually AI religions as uh there are actually AI religions as uh there are actually AI religions as well. They're They're a little bit sort well. They're They're a little bit sort well. They're They're a little bit sort of marginal, but but there are of marginal, but but there are of marginal, but but there are proper religions built up around stuff proper religions built up around stuff proper religions built up around stuff and so and so and so not to acknowledge not to acknowledge not to acknowledge that it is functioning in religious that it is functioning in religious that it is functioning in religious ways, I think, would be really naive as ways, I think, would be really naive as ways, I think, would be really naive as well.

well. well. We've already We've already We've already >> begun to touch on this, but what did you >> begun to touch on this, but what did you >> begun to touch on this, but what did you learn doing a deep dive on AI for the learn doing a deep dive on AI for the learn doing a deep dive on AI for the book and the podcast? I'm just asking book and the podcast? I'm just asking book and the podcast? I'm just asking here, what is the first or biggest idea here, what is the first or biggest idea here, what is the first or biggest idea that comes to mind? Something you just that comes to mind? Something you just that comes to mind? Something you just hadn't thought about at all before you hadn't thought about at all before you hadn't thought about at all before you did this deep dive. did this deep dive. did this deep dive. >> Um >> Um >> Um I was really struck at So, one of the I was really struck at So, one of the I was really struck at So, one of the episodes was an interview with um a guy episodes was an interview with um a guy episodes was an interview with um a guy called Joshua Barua, called Joshua Barua, called Joshua Barua, who's a an AI educator uh in uh based in who's a an AI educator uh in uh based in who's a an AI educator uh in uh based in Nairobi, Kenya. Nairobi, Kenya. Nairobi, Kenya. And we were discussing the ways in which And we were discussing the ways in which And we were discussing the ways in which the whole artificial intelligence the whole artificial intelligence the whole artificial intelligence industry, so not not just a flickering industry, so not not just a flickering industry, so not not just a flickering cursor on your screen, but everything cursor on your screen, but everything cursor on your screen, but everything that needs to happen in the background that needs to happen in the background that needs to happen in the background for that to work, for that to work, for that to work, um is incredibly um is incredibly um is incredibly inequitous. inequitous. inequitous. And the way in which certain groups of And the way in which certain groups of And the way in which certain groups of people people people uh are paid very, very little money uh are paid very, very little money uh are paid very, very little money tagging data tagging data tagging data uh in order that that people in rich uh in order that that people in rich uh in order that that people in rich countries can use AI. Well, uh the countries can use AI. Well, uh the countries can use AI. Well, uh the amount of water that data centers use, amount of water that data centers use, amount of water that data centers use, that that they copyright issues on that that they copyright issues on that that they copyright issues on people's work. And it really helped open people's work. And it really helped open people's work. And it really helped open my eyes to the bigger picture of AI. So, my eyes to the bigger picture of AI. So, my eyes to the bigger picture of AI. So, I think we often think it's just about I think we often think it's just about I think we often think it's just about me and my computer and what can I do me and my computer and what can I do me and my computer and what can I do with this technology?

with this technology? with this technology? How can it make me more efficient? How can it make me more efficient? How can it make me more efficient? And And And that conversation really showed me that that conversation really showed me that that conversation really showed me that as Christians, we can't shrink it down as Christians, we can't shrink it down as Christians, we can't shrink it down to that because, you know, our God is to that because, you know, our God is to that because, you know, our God is the god of the widows and the fatherless the god of the widows and the fatherless the god of the widows and the fatherless and and the and and the and and the those who are despised by society. And those who are despised by society. And those who are despised by society. And there are stakes there are stakes there are stakes in the AI world for those sorts of in the AI world for those sorts of in the AI world for those sorts of people. and and Christians of anyone people. and and Christians of anyone people. and and Christians of anyone should be should be should be looking for those forgotten or invisible looking for those forgotten or invisible looking for those forgotten or invisible people in the AI world and seeking to people in the AI world and seeking to people in the AI world and seeking to to honor them just as just as our God to honor them just as just as our God to honor them just as just as our God does. So that was one big takeaway for does. So that was one big takeaway for does. So that was one big takeaway for me. Don't just look at the screen in me. Don't just look at the screen in me. Don't just look at the screen in front of you. Do a bit of research. Try front of you. Do a bit of research. Try front of you. Do a bit of research. Try and work out what what does this and work out what what does this and work out what what does this industry look like? And how do I engage industry look like? And how do I engage industry look like? And how do I engage with the whole industry as a Christian with the whole industry as a Christian with the whole industry as a Christian not just with a particular model that I not just with a particular model that I not just with a particular model that I might use. might use. might use. >> I think one of the big takeaways from >> I think one of the big takeaways from >> I think one of the big takeaways from our AI Christian benchmark at TGC last our AI Christian benchmark at TGC last our AI Christian benchmark at TGC last year led by Michael Graham year led by Michael Graham year led by Michael Graham was to expose the high degree of human was to expose the high degree of human was to expose the high degree of human alignment behind artificial alignment behind artificial alignment behind artificial intelligence. People don't realize this intelligence. People don't realize this intelligence. People don't realize this isn't just something you push a button isn't just something you push a button isn't just something you push a button on and it takes off. It has to be on and it takes off. It has to be on and it takes off. It has to be trained. It has to be told what to say trained. It has to be told what to say trained. It has to be told what to say and what not to say. And that's exactly and what not to say. And that's exactly and what not to say. And that's exactly what you're seeing with with Josh.

what you're seeing with with Josh. what you're seeing with with Josh. Another issue is the exposure so many of Another issue is the exposure so many of Another issue is the exposure so many of these people face of horrific images and these people face of horrific images and these people face of horrific images and other media that they need to be able to other media that they need to be able to other media that they need to be able to train AI and that's what we mean by AI train AI and that's what we mean by AI train AI and that's what we mean by AI trainer. Somebody has to actually do trainer. Somebody has to actually do trainer. Somebody has to actually do this alignment in a very you know this alignment in a very you know >> [laughter] >> human way >> human way >> human way to say no no no that's bad. Do not make to say no no no that's bad. Do not make to say no no no that's bad. Do not make that image or do not show that thing or that image or do not show that thing or that image or do not show that thing or do not depict that that's that's do not depict that that's that's do not depict that that's that's unethical. unethical. unethical. Don't realize how much of that is Don't realize how much of that is Don't realize how much of that is happening I think. happening I think. happening I think. >> And and it's worth just putting a little >> And and it's worth just putting a little >> And and it's worth just putting a little bit of flesh on those bones. Not not not bit of flesh on those bones. Not not not bit of flesh on those bones. Not not not to sort of be sensationalist but people to sort of be sensationalist but people to sort of be sensationalist but people are spending are spending are spending 8-10 hours a day looking at pictures of 8-10 hours a day looking at pictures of 8-10 hours a day looking at pictures of children being abused or or of horrific children being abused or or of horrific children being abused or or of horrific torture in order to tag that data so torture in order to tag that data so torture in order to tag that data so that the AI doesn't produce those sort that the AI doesn't produce those sort that the AI doesn't produce those sort of I mean that's the level of of I mean that's the level of of I mean that's the level of horrific work Uh uh that that that some horrific work Uh uh that that that some horrific work Uh uh that that that some people are doing for very little pay people are doing for very little pay people are doing for very little pay indeed.

indeed. indeed. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, there's definitely a colonial Yeah, there's definitely a colonial Yeah, there's definitely a colonial dynamic to what's happening with not dynamic to what's happening with not dynamic to what's happening with not only that training, but then also the only that training, but then also the only that training, but then also the fact that the answers AI produces is fact that the answers AI produces is fact that the answers AI produces is pulling off primarily the existing pulling off primarily the existing pulling off primarily the existing internet, which itself skews very internet, which itself skews very internet, which itself skews very heavily toward a certain kind of heavily toward a certain kind of heavily toward a certain kind of worldview in a certain part of the worldview in a certain part of the worldview in a certain part of the world. Does not reflect even where a lot world. Does not reflect even where a lot world. Does not reflect even where a lot of these people are these trainers are of these people are these trainers are of these people are these trainers are actually working. actually working. actually working. >> Uh look, and all all this is true. >> Uh look, and all all this is true. >> Uh look, and all all this is true. Uh but I would I would hate listeners to Uh but I would I would hate listeners to Uh but I would I would hate listeners to think that all we're doing is dumping on think that all we're doing is dumping on think that all we're doing is dumping on AI. I think part of the difficulty is AI. I think part of the difficulty is AI. I think part of the difficulty is >> question is about what you love about >> question is about what you love about >> question is about what you love about it. So, we'll get there. Go ahead. it. So, we'll get there. Go ahead. it. So, we'll get there. Go ahead. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Okay. Well, I was just thinking it's >> Okay. Well, I was just thinking it's >> Okay. Well, I was just thinking it's it's it's really interesting, isn't it, it's it's really interesting, isn't it, it's it's really interesting, isn't it, that e- people sort of that e- people sort of that e- people sort of resolve to either often to either being resolve to either often to either being resolve to either often to either being AI doomers and seeing all the all the AI doomers and seeing all the all the AI doomers and seeing all the all the problems with it or AI doomers and problems with it or AI doomers and problems with it or AI doomers and saying, you know, this is going to saying, you know, this is going to saying, you know, this is going to change the world. This is so brilliant. change the world. This is so brilliant. change the world. This is so brilliant. And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that And I think one of the things that we can do as Christians, because we have we can do as Christians, because we have we can do as Christians, because we have this, you know, this, you know, this, you know, 3,000-year tradition, so we we're not 3,000-year tradition, so we we're not 3,000-year tradition, so we we're not going to suddenly be caught hook, line, going to suddenly be caught hook, line, going to suddenly be caught hook, line, and sinker by whatever the latest and sinker by whatever the latest and sinker by whatever the latest technology is, cuz we we've got this technology is, cuz we we've got this technology is, cuz we we've got this ballast, you know, we Christianity's ballast, you know, we Christianity's ballast, you know, we Christianity's been around for long enough that it's been around for long enough that it's been around for long enough that it's seen things come and it's seen them go.

seen things come and it's seen them go. seen things come and it's seen them go. You know, the Roman Empire was thought You know, the Roman Empire was thought You know, the Roman Empire was thought to be the bee's knees until it wasn't. to be the bee's knees until it wasn't. to be the bee's knees until it wasn't. You know, the eternal empire. And so, we You know, the eternal empire. And so, we You know, the eternal empire. And so, we can take a bit of a long view as can take a bit of a long view as can take a bit of a long view as Christians. I think in a way that is a Christians. I think in a way that is a Christians. I think in a way that is a little bit harder if you don't have that little bit harder if you don't have that little bit harder if you don't have that sort of tradition behind you. sort of tradition behind you. sort of tradition behind you. Uh and and we can say, you know, there Uh and and we can say, you know, there Uh and and we can say, you know, there are real are real are real difficulties and problems and scandals difficulties and problems and scandals difficulties and problems and scandals in the AI industry, and it's also in the AI industry, and it's also in the AI industry, and it's also at the same time at the same time at the same time incredibly useful. incredibly useful. incredibly useful. You know, things like Bible translation. You know, things like Bible translation. You know, things like Bible translation. Um it's it's just wonderful for the Um it's it's just wonderful for the Um it's it's just wonderful for the speed at which Bible translations can be speed at which Bible translations can be speed at which Bible translations can be brought out and for brought out and for brought out and for sort of serving and helping and loving sort of serving and helping and loving sort of serving and helping and loving our neighbor. There are many ways in our neighbor. There are many ways in our neighbor. There are many ways in which AI can supercharge things that which AI can supercharge things that which AI can supercharge things that Christians really care about and that Christians really care about and that Christians really care about and that the Bible really cares about in the the Bible really cares about in the the Bible really cares about in the world. The The problem is world. The The problem is world. The The problem is that it is both of those things that it is both of those things that it is both of those things >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> same time. So, what do you do as a >> same time. So, what do you do as a >> same time. So, what do you do as a Christian? Like you can't ignore the Christian? Like you can't ignore the Christian? Like you can't ignore the fact um that this is a a an amazing fact um that this is a a an amazing fact um that this is a a an amazing technology that can help us do many technology that can help us do many technology that can help us do many wonderful things that that God really wonderful things that that God really wonderful things that that God really cares about.

cares about. cares about. And you can't avoid the fact uh that And you can't avoid the fact uh that And you can't avoid the fact uh that there is this really pernicious side to there is this really pernicious side to there is this really pernicious side to it. And the The wisdom is trying to it. And the The wisdom is trying to it. And the The wisdom is trying to weigh those with each other and to to weigh those with each other and to to weigh those with each other and to to find a way of wisdom find a way of wisdom find a way of wisdom through this complexity. through this complexity. through this complexity. Um you know, that that keeps our Um you know, that that keeps our Um you know, that that keeps our integrity as human beings uh and that integrity as human beings uh and that integrity as human beings uh and that seeks to seeks to seeks to use AI where uh it's the right thing to use AI where uh it's the right thing to use AI where uh it's the right thing to do to to help build God's kingdom. do to to help build God's kingdom. do to to help build God's kingdom. >> I will come back to your favorite thing >> I will come back to your favorite thing >> I will come back to your favorite thing about AI, but because of that answer I about AI, but because of that answer I about AI, but because of that answer I want to jump to the next one, which was want to jump to the next one, which was want to jump to the next one, which was what Chris is the appropriate what Chris is the appropriate what Chris is the appropriate technological analog from history for technological analog from history for technological analog from history for AI? AI? AI? And I'm asking this question for this And I'm asking this question for this And I'm asking this question for this reason reason reason because a lot of the discussion about AI because a lot of the discussion about AI because a lot of the discussion about AI talks as though we've never experienced talks as though we've never experienced talks as though we've never experienced anything like this before as if we can't anything like this before as if we can't anything like this before as if we can't learn from anything that we have done learn from anything that we have done learn from anything that we have done before from anything that's that's before from anything that's that's before from anything that's that's that's been studied or anything that can that's been studied or anything that can that's been studied or anything that can can be compared to. And the fact is can be compared to. And the fact is can be compared to. And the fact is while some things are clearly different, while some things are clearly different, while some things are clearly different, this is a technology this is a technology this is a technology and uh human history is nothing but new and uh human history is nothing but new and uh human history is nothing but new technologies being introduced that do technologies being introduced that do technologies being introduced that do revolutionize their cultures and revolutionize their cultures and revolutionize their cultures and ultimately the world. So, when we look ultimately the world. So, when we look ultimately the world. So, when we look back on AI and a lot of people have back on AI and a lot of people have back on AI and a lot of people have attempted this and or we when we're attempted this and or we when we're attempted this and or we when we're looking at AI and look back in history, looking at AI and look back in history, looking at AI and look back in history, many have attempted this. What do you many have attempted this. What do you many have attempted this. What do you think is the most appropriate historical think is the most appropriate historical think is the most appropriate historical analog for this technology?

analog for this technology? analog for this technology? >> Let Let's look at the lie of the land to >> Let Let's look at the lie of the land to >> Let Let's look at the lie of the land to begin with. Some people have said it's begin with. Some people have said it's begin with. Some people have said it's as significant as the internet. as significant as the internet. as significant as the internet. Some people have said it's as Some people have said it's as Some people have said it's as significant as the significant as the significant as the uh invention of electricity, uh the use uh invention of electricity, uh the use uh invention of electricity, uh the use of electricity. of electricity. of electricity. >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> Some people have said it's as >> Some people have said it's as >> Some people have said it's as significant as the invention of significant as the invention of significant as the invention of agriculture. So, going from being agriculture. So, going from being agriculture. So, going from being hunter-gatherer societies to to being hunter-gatherer societies to to being hunter-gatherer societies to to being settled agricultural societies. settled agricultural societies. settled agricultural societies. >> [sighs and gasps] >> Any answer to the question has to be >> Any answer to the question has to be prefaced with the fact that we don't yet prefaced with the fact that we don't yet prefaced with the fact that we don't yet know. know. know. Um certainly people like me who are not Um certainly people like me who are not Um certainly people like me who are not experts in the mechanics of AI don't experts in the mechanics of AI don't experts in the mechanics of AI don't know. Because some people are saying know. Because some people are saying know. Because some people are saying this will absolutely change society in this will absolutely change society in this will absolutely change society in every conceivable way. Uh uh others who every conceivable way. Uh uh others who every conceivable way. Uh uh others who do know more about it than me, uh like do know more about it than me, uh like do know more about it than me, uh like Cal Newport, the the guy who wrote the Cal Newport, the the guy who wrote the Cal Newport, the the guy who wrote the book Deep Work, are very skeptical. book Deep Work, are very skeptical. book Deep Work, are very skeptical. They're saying it's all hype. This is They're saying it's all hype. This is They're saying it's all hype. This is not going to happen. I don't know. not going to happen. I don't know. not going to happen. I don't know. But what does seem But what does seem But what does seem clear clear clear is that this isn't just one new is that this isn't just one new is that this isn't just one new technology like the internet. It's technology like the internet. It's technology like the internet. It's something that allows a whole new set of something that allows a whole new set of something that allows a whole new set of things to be done.

things to be done. things to be done. So, it's it's in that sense more like So, it's it's in that sense more like So, it's it's in that sense more like electricity. electricity. electricity. So, electricity allows computers and So, electricity allows computers and So, electricity allows computers and allows domestic lighting that's not sort allows domestic lighting that's not sort allows domestic lighting that's not sort of gas-based. And it's it's sort of a a of gas-based. And it's it's sort of a a of gas-based. And it's it's sort of a a platform on which lots of new things can platform on which lots of new things can platform on which lots of new things can happen. And I think it's better to think happen. And I think it's better to think happen. And I think it's better to think of of of AI in that sense. AI in that sense. AI in that sense. Uh it's enabling lots of Uh it's enabling lots of Uh it's enabling lots of new technologies new technologies new technologies to happen in ways that that we couldn't to happen in ways that that we couldn't to happen in ways that that we couldn't conceive of previously, rather than just conceive of previously, rather than just conceive of previously, rather than just being one new technology in our being one new technology in our being one new technology in our landscape. So, my best guess landscape. So, my best guess landscape. So, my best guess is that it it is deeply significant. is that it it is deeply significant. is that it it is deeply significant. Um Um Um but not but not but not not in the most fundamental ways. So, not in the most fundamental ways. So, not in the most fundamental ways. So, and what I mean by that is that what it and what I mean by that is that what it and what I mean by that is that what it means to be a human being means to be a human being means to be a human being and the preciousness and specialness of and the preciousness and specialness of and the preciousness and specialness of being a human being being a human being being a human being I don't think is touched I don't think is touched I don't think is touched by AI, although most people think it is.

by AI, although most people think it is. by AI, although most people think it is. Um so, just really briefly, Um so, just really briefly, Um so, just really briefly, if you think if you think if you think that that that what it means to be a human being what it means to be a human being what it means to be a human being is to do with um is to do with um is to do with um what we might call our our sassy what we might call our our sassy what we might call our our sassy qualities, sentience, agency, qualities, sentience, agency, qualities, sentience, agency, consciousness, intelligence. If that's consciousness, intelligence. If that's consciousness, intelligence. If that's what being a human is, what being a human is, what being a human is, AI is coming for you. AI is coming for you. AI is coming for you. Because it's probably already more Because it's probably already more Because it's probably already more intelligent than you in very significant intelligent than you in very significant intelligent than you in very significant ways. ways. ways. Uh the question of of consciousness is Uh the question of of consciousness is Uh the question of of consciousness is is open for the future, whether AI may is open for the future, whether AI may is open for the future, whether AI may or may not be that, and so forth. And or may not be that, and so forth. And or may not be that, and so forth. And therefore, if that's all it is, therefore, if that's all it is, therefore, if that's all it is, then good luck trying to defend that then good luck trying to defend that then good luck trying to defend that view of humanity in the next half view of humanity in the next half view of humanity in the next half century. century. century. And that is what the modern world's view And that is what the modern world's view And that is what the modern world's view of humanity largely is. We are the of humanity largely is. We are the of humanity largely is. We are the rational animal. We are the rational animal. We are the rational animal. We are the language-using animal. language-using animal. language-using animal. Um Um Um and the alarm bells are ringing for that and the alarm bells are ringing for that and the alarm bells are ringing for that anthropology. anthropology. anthropology. Um AI is kicking the supports from under Um AI is kicking the supports from under Um AI is kicking the supports from under it. it. it. But of course, that's not what we But of course, that's not what we But of course, that's not what we believe as Christians, wonderfully. believe as Christians, wonderfully. believe as Christians, wonderfully. Our dignity Our dignity Our dignity doesn't rest on our intelligence, and it doesn't rest on our intelligence, and it doesn't rest on our intelligence, and it doesn't rest on our rationality and our doesn't rest on our rationality and our doesn't rest on our rationality and our language use.

language use. language use. And therefore, And therefore, And therefore, those human beings who are not as those human beings who are not as those human beings who are not as intelligent as others, or don't use intelligent as others, or don't use intelligent as others, or don't use language either because they're very language either because they're very language either because they're very young, young, young, or perhaps they've lost those abilities or perhaps they've lost those abilities or perhaps they've lost those abilities as they've grown older, or they never as they've grown older, or they never as they've grown older, or they never had them, are just as human as everyone had them, are just as human as everyone had them, are just as human as everyone else, because humanity is a else, because humanity is a else, because humanity is a dignity is a is a gift. God gives us the dignity is a is a gift. God gives us the dignity is a is a gift. God gives us the gift of being in his image. And gift of being in his image. And gift of being in his image. And therefore, it depends on him and his therefore, it depends on him and his therefore, it depends on him and his treating of us in that way rather than treating of us in that way rather than treating of us in that way rather than any capacity that we bear. And any capacity that we bear. And any capacity that we bear. And therefore, as the tsunami of AI sort of therefore, as the tsunami of AI sort of therefore, as the tsunami of AI sort of sweeps over society, taking people's sweeps over society, taking people's sweeps over society, taking people's anthropology with it, that the Christian anthropology with it, that the Christian anthropology with it, that the Christian anthropology is is is the house built on anthropology is is is the house built on anthropology is is is the house built on the rock. Um however intelligent or the rock. Um however intelligent or the rock. Um however intelligent or conscious, who knows, or sentient AI conscious, who knows, or sentient AI conscious, who knows, or sentient AI gets, it is not coming for the Bible's gets, it is not coming for the Bible's gets, it is not coming for the Bible's anthropology cuz it never rested on anthropology cuz it never rested on anthropology cuz it never rested on those things to begin with. those things to begin with. those things to begin with. And if I might just say one more And if I might just say one more And if I might just say one more sentence about that, this is therefore sentence about that, this is therefore sentence about that, this is therefore this cultural moment this cultural moment this cultural moment in which we now live in which we now live in which we now live an incredible opportunity an incredible opportunity an incredible opportunity for Christians. Because people for Christians. Because people for Christians. Because people uh in society generally, certainly uh in society generally, certainly uh in society generally, certainly people on YouTube, are waking up to the people on YouTube, are waking up to the people on YouTube, are waking up to the idea, "Hold on, idea, "Hold on, idea, "Hold on, who am I actually? Because I thought who am I actually? Because I thought who am I actually? Because I thought that my value was in my intelligence and that my value was in my intelligence and that my value was in my intelligence and my efficiency and so forth, but AI is my efficiency and so forth, but AI is my efficiency and so forth, but AI is rapidly catching up with that and

rapidly catching up with that and rapidly catching up with that and probably will overtake me." And so, probably will overtake me." And so, probably will overtake me." And so, there's this broad sense of we need to there's this broad sense of we need to there's this broad sense of we need to rethink what a human being is out there rethink what a human being is out there rethink what a human being is out there in society because all of our in society because all of our in society because all of our comfortable assumptions are just being comfortable assumptions are just being comfortable assumptions are just being ransacked by AI. And And as Christians, ransacked by AI. And And as Christians, ransacked by AI. And And as Christians, we can sort of we can sort of we can sort of open our arms and and provide a open our arms and and provide a open our arms and and provide a sanctuary for people who are fearful sanctuary for people who are fearful sanctuary for people who are fearful about the status of their dignity in the about the status of their dignity in the about the status of their dignity in the age of AI and say, "Come and have a look age of AI and say, "Come and have a look age of AI and say, "Come and have a look with us with us with us at a way of being human that doesn't at a way of being human that doesn't at a way of being human that doesn't depend on how clever and efficient you depend on how clever and efficient you depend on how clever and efficient you are and never has." are and never has." are and never has." Um and it's a much healthier, richer Um and it's a much healthier, richer Um and it's a much healthier, richer more glorious way more glorious way more glorious way of being human. of being human. of being human. >> I want to apply that to a quote that you >> I want to apply that to a quote that you >> I want to apply that to a quote that you have section in the book, The AI have section in the book, The AI have section in the book, The AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Humanity, and ask you to expand on it a Humanity, and ask you to expand on it a Humanity, and ask you to expand on it a little bit. little bit. little bit. You argue that friction can be good for You argue that friction can be good for You argue that friction can be good for us.

us. us. That very much goes against our cultural That very much goes against our cultural That very much goes against our cultural narratives today in the West. And this narratives today in the West. And this narratives today in the West. And this is what you say, "A frictionless life is what you say, "A frictionless life is what you say, "A frictionless life may look like freedom, may look like freedom, may look like freedom, but often it is only passivity with but often it is only passivity with but often it is only passivity with better branding." better branding." better branding." Love that quote. Love that quote. Love that quote. Expand on what you mean. Expand on what you mean. Expand on what you mean. >> The idea of friction here is the >> The idea of friction here is the >> The idea of friction here is the difficulty and messiness of life. The difficulty and messiness of life. The difficulty and messiness of life. The drudgery often drudgery often drudgery often that comes with just having to get that comes with just having to get that comes with just having to get things done. things done. things done. So, you know, I've got to So, you know, I've got to So, you know, I've got to um when I wash clothes, there are um when I wash clothes, there are um when I wash clothes, there are certain things that I've got to do, put certain things that I've got to do, put certain things that I've got to do, put it in the washing machine, take it out, it in the washing machine, take it out, it in the washing machine, take it out, hang it up on the line. All All of these hang it up on the line. All All of these hang it up on the line. All All of these are little tiny points of friction. are little tiny points of friction. are little tiny points of friction. Yeah, I'd I'd rather be doing something Yeah, I'd I'd rather be doing something Yeah, I'd I'd rather be doing something else, but here I am doing doing this else, but here I am doing doing this else, but here I am doing doing this thing. thing. thing. And And And for almost all of human history, for almost all of human history, for almost all of human history, we've had one problem, really, we've had one problem, really, we've had one problem, really, which is how to get friction down. which is how to get friction down. which is how to get friction down. Um you know, so we Um you know, so we Um you know, so we in the past would have spent most of our in the past would have spent most of our in the past would have spent most of our lives finding food and water, keeping lives finding food and water, keeping lives finding food and water, keeping ourselves alive, getting enough calories ourselves alive, getting enough calories ourselves alive, getting enough calories to last another day.

to last another day. to last another day. >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> And then >> And then >> And then somewhere, perhaps in the 20th century somewhere, perhaps in the 20th century somewhere, perhaps in the 20th century for many for many for many affluent cultures, affluent cultures, affluent cultures, a second a second a second problem came alongside it, which is problem came alongside it, which is problem came alongside it, which is how do I how do I how do I limit myself so that I don't limit myself so that I don't limit myself so that I don't consume too many calories. consume too many calories. consume too many calories. Now, that was never an issue previously Now, that was never an issue previously Now, that was never an issue previously because the the calories have been in because the the calories have been in because the the calories have been in such short supply, but now we're such short supply, but now we're such short supply, but now we're suddenly faced with this double problem. suddenly faced with this double problem. suddenly faced with this double problem. What's the right amount of calories for What's the right amount of calories for What's the right amount of calories for me to consume to to to be healthy? me to consume to to to be healthy? me to consume to to to be healthy? And that's a very strange problem to And that's a very strange problem to And that's a very strange problem to have sort of across human history. And a have sort of across human history. And a have sort of across human history. And a similar thing is happening with AI. similar thing is happening with AI. similar thing is happening with AI. So, So, So, we've always had this issue, how do we we've always had this issue, how do we we've always had this issue, how do we reduce friction? How do we do things reduce friction? How do we do things reduce friction? How do we do things more efficiently as human beings? You more efficiently as human beings? You more efficiently as human beings? You know, invention of the steam engine, you know, invention of the steam engine, you know, invention of the steam engine, you know, electricity, and we we've got know, electricity, and we we've got know, electricity, and we we've got friction down and down and down. friction down and down and down. friction down and down and down. But with AI, But with AI, But with AI, the possibility the possibility the possibility becomes live in a way that it really becomes live in a way that it really becomes live in a way that it really hasn't been up until now to get friction hasn't been up until now to get friction hasn't been up until now to get friction in a lot of domains of life, uh a lot of in a lot of domains of life, uh a lot of in a lot of domains of life, uh a lot of work life in particular, down to almost work life in particular, down to almost work life in particular, down to almost nothing. Like AI will write the blog nothing. Like AI will write the blog nothing. Like AI will write the blog post for you. It will post for you. It will post for you. It will um edit the chapter for you. You know, um edit the chapter for you. You know, um edit the chapter for you. You know, what if you're doing knowledge work, uh what if you're doing knowledge work, uh what if you're doing knowledge work, uh a lot of this is now a lot of this is now a lot of this is now the friction of just just hitting enter the friction of just just hitting enter the friction of just just hitting enter on a prompt.

on a prompt. on a prompt. And therefore the question arises, And therefore the question arises, And therefore the question arises, how much friction how much friction how much friction is good for a human being? is good for a human being? is good for a human being? Because if I reduce friction down to Because if I reduce friction down to Because if I reduce friction down to zero or near zero in my life, it's sort zero or near zero in my life, it's sort zero or near zero in my life, it's sort of like of like of like buying a gym membership and turning up buying a gym membership and turning up buying a gym membership and turning up for your gym induction session on the for your gym induction session on the for your gym induction session on the first day and the trainer says to you, first day and the trainer says to you, first day and the trainer says to you, at you know, how much weight would you at you know, how much weight would you at you know, how much weight would you like me to put on the the bench press like me to put on the the bench press like me to put on the the bench press machine today? And you say, "Oh, can I machine today? And you say, "Oh, can I machine today? And you say, "Oh, can I have zero weight, please? I'd like to go have zero weight, please? I'd like to go have zero weight, please? I'd like to go around the gym with no weights at all." around the gym with no weights at all." around the gym with no weights at all." And then they the instructor would sort And then they the instructor would sort And then they the instructor would sort of turn to you, wouldn't they? And say, of turn to you, wouldn't they? And say, of turn to you, wouldn't they? And say, "Well, what are you here for? Like "Well, what are you here for? Like "Well, what are you here for? Like what's the point of this gym membership what's the point of this gym membership what's the point of this gym membership if you're not going to have a little bit if you're not going to have a little bit if you're not going to have a little bit of friction? If you're not going to have of friction? If you're not going to have of friction? If you're not going to have a little bit of resistance?" a little bit of resistance?" a little bit of resistance?" And it's similarly, if if I want zero And it's similarly, if if I want zero And it's similarly, if if I want zero friction in my life, friction in my life, friction in my life, who do I think I'm becoming? who do I think I'm becoming? who do I think I'm becoming? How do I think I'm growing How do I think I'm growing How do I think I'm growing as a person? as a person? as a person? Because often it's the Because often it's the Because often it's the friction and the difficulty friction and the difficulty friction and the difficulty and even the drudgery that is formative and even the drudgery that is formative and even the drudgery that is formative of us as people, it's it's shaping us.

of us as people, it's it's shaping us. of us as people, it's it's shaping us. It's by pressing on through resistance It's by pressing on through resistance It's by pressing on through resistance that we grow that we grow that we grow as individuals. as individuals. as individuals. And so it's by no means clear that the And so it's by no means clear that the And so it's by no means clear that the one thing we should be trying to do is one thing we should be trying to do is one thing we should be trying to do is always reduce friction to zero. We've always reduce friction to zero. We've always reduce friction to zero. We've got to think how much friction got to think how much friction got to think how much friction is right for me as a human being is right for me as a human being is right for me as a human being to be growing to be growing to be growing in in in compassion and love and patience and compassion and love and patience and compassion and love and patience and goodness and all the fruits of the goodness and all the fruits of the goodness and all the fruits of the spirit. And I don't think the answer is spirit. And I don't think the answer is spirit. And I don't think the answer is zero. zero. zero. >> Oh, that's fascinating. I love that >> Oh, that's fascinating. I love that >> Oh, that's fascinating. I love that analogy to the calories. It's so clear analogy to the calories. It's so clear analogy to the calories. It's so clear to be able to understand. We're going to to be able to understand. We're going to to be able to understand. We're going to have I face this, Chris, when I'm have I face this, Chris, when I'm have I face this, Chris, when I'm writing. I don't use AI, writing. I don't use AI, writing. I don't use AI, but now it's just always looming in the but now it's just always looming in the but now it's just always looming in the back and there's always this thought back and there's always this thought back and there's always this thought that that that you know, I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't you know, I wouldn't Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Why am I doing this? Do I need to be doing this? Do I need to be doing this? Do I need to be doing this? Could a computer be better than me at Could a computer be better than me at Could a computer be better than me at doing this? doing this? doing this? Until a year ago, I never had that Until a year ago, I never had that Until a year ago, I never had that thought in my life.

thought in my life. thought in my life. >> And I I had a fascinating conversation >> And I I had a fascinating conversation >> And I I had a fascinating conversation about this with Rachel Gilson about this with Rachel Gilson about this with Rachel Gilson on what one of the episodes of the on what one of the episodes of the on what one of the episodes of the podcast. podcast. podcast. And I just found her view so fresh and And I just found her view so fresh and And I just found her view so fresh and unexpected, but also really, really unexpected, but also really, really unexpected, but also really, really helpful. And as far as I can remember helpful. And as far as I can remember helpful. And as far as I can remember what she said, it was what she said, it was what she said, it was AI won't do our writing for us, AI won't do our writing for us, AI won't do our writing for us, but it can help us to be better writers. but it can help us to be better writers. but it can help us to be better writers. Actually shocked me at the time. I Actually shocked me at the time. I Actually shocked me at the time. I thought she was going to say, "I'd never thought she was going to say, "I'd never thought she was going to say, "I'd never go anywhere near AI. I don't like it." go anywhere near AI. I don't like it." go anywhere near AI. I don't like it." And it wasn't that at all. And it wasn't that at all. And it wasn't that at all. And and I think And and I think And and I think what what I took away from that what what I took away from that what what I took away from that conversation was conversation was conversation was finding the right finding the right finding the right places within a process like writing places within a process like writing places within a process like writing to use AI. And she came up with some to use AI. And she came up with some to use AI. And she came up with some incredibly helpful principles. incredibly helpful principles. incredibly helpful principles. Um things like Um things like Um things like don't use AI in any way that if the don't use AI in any way that if the don't use AI in any way that if the people reading your text knew you'd used people reading your text knew you'd used people reading your text knew you'd used AI, they would think of it differently.

AI, they would think of it differently. AI, they would think of it differently. Um don't try to hide it, basically. Um don't try to hide it, basically. Um don't try to hide it, basically. Um acknowledge how you've used it. Just Um acknowledge how you've used it. Just Um acknowledge how you've used it. Just really really really fundamental principles of integrity like fundamental principles of integrity like fundamental principles of integrity like that, but she wasn't saying that, but she wasn't saying that, but she wasn't saying don't go anywhere near it. don't go anywhere near it. don't go anywhere near it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, speaking of that, then let's Well, speaking of that, then let's Well, speaking of that, then let's transition toward the uses of AI. transition toward the uses of AI. transition toward the uses of AI. Um Um Um what do you enjoy most, Chris, about AI? what do you enjoy most, Chris, about AI? what do you enjoy most, Chris, about AI? I know you've experimented a lot. I know you've experimented a lot. I know you've experimented a lot. >> Globally, >> Globally, >> Globally, I enjoy most the philosophical questions I enjoy most the philosophical questions I enjoy most the philosophical questions that it raises. Like thinking that it raises. Like thinking that it raises. Like thinking thinking what is a human being in the thinking what is a human being in the thinking what is a human being in the age of AI is just so much fun. And and age of AI is just so much fun. And and age of AI is just so much fun. And and also incredibly important because AI is also incredibly important because AI is also incredibly important because AI is coming for our anthropology, and we need coming for our anthropology, and we need coming for our anthropology, and we need to be ready for that. to be ready for that. to be ready for that. Um in terms of using AI itself, um Um in terms of using AI itself, um Um in terms of using AI itself, um I I've got two sort of modes. There's I I've got two sort of modes. There's I I've got two sort of modes. There's there's the mode with my children, which there's the mode with my children, which there's the mode with my children, which is um there's this is um there's this is um there's this thing that we've encountered in the thing that we've encountered in the thing that we've encountered in the world, and we don't know what it is, and world, and we don't know what it is, and world, and we don't know what it is, and Mommy Mommy Mommy doesn't know what it Mommy Mommy Mommy doesn't know what it Mommy Mommy Mommy doesn't know what it is, and Daddy doesn't know what it is.

is, and Daddy doesn't know what it is. is, and Daddy doesn't know what it is. Let's ask AI. And then we get these sort Let's ask AI. And then we get these sort Let's ask AI. And then we get these sort of 5-minute primers on, you know, is the of 5-minute primers on, you know, is the of 5-minute primers on, you know, is the world a sphere or is it slightly world a sphere or is it slightly world a sphere or is it slightly unspherical? And I just have no idea. unspherical? And I just have no idea. unspherical? And I just have no idea. Let's Yeah, let's ask AI. And then it is Let's Yeah, let's ask AI. And then it is Let's Yeah, let's ask AI. And then it is just It allows you to access just It allows you to access just It allows you to access sort of weird information about the sort of weird information about the sort of weird information about the world really quickly, and that's quite world really quickly, and that's quite world really quickly, and that's quite fun, and then we have a chat about it fun, and then we have a chat about it fun, and then we have a chat about it with our kids, so that's really nice. with our kids, so that's really nice. with our kids, so that's really nice. Um I think work-wise, Um I think work-wise, Um I think work-wise, I found it AI to be an incredible I found it AI to be an incredible I found it AI to be an incredible synthesizer. synthesizer. synthesizer. Um and so I'm I'm working on something, Um and so I'm I'm working on something, Um and so I'm I'm working on something, and I just can't work out and I just can't work out and I just can't work out how does all this material fit together? how does all this material fit together? how does all this material fit together? What am I actually saying here? What am I actually saying here? What am I actually saying here? And um um I'll sort of give it to a an And um um I'll sort of give it to a an And um um I'll sort of give it to a an LLM and say, "What What do you think the LLM and say, "What What do you think the LLM and say, "What What do you think the argument is here?" Uh and it'll come out argument is here?" Uh and it'll come out argument is here?" Uh and it'll come out with something. And it'll be, "Ah, oh oh with something. And it'll be, "Ah, oh oh with something. And it'll be, "Ah, oh oh that's actually I didn't realize I was that's actually I didn't realize I was that's actually I didn't realize I was saying that. That's quite helpful." And saying that. That's quite helpful." And saying that. That's quite helpful." And it'll usually go through two or three it'll usually go through two or three it'll usually go through two or three more iterations. Ah, that's not exactly more iterations. Ah, that's not exactly more iterations. Ah, that's not exactly right. Isn't it a bit more like this?

right. Isn't it a bit more like this? right. Isn't it a bit more like this? And and I find And and I find And and I find the to and fro really helpful. the to and fro really helpful. the to and fro really helpful. Sort of having someone almost someone Sort of having someone almost someone Sort of having someone almost someone else in the room or something else in else in the room or something else in else in the room or something else in the room that can reflect back to you the room that can reflect back to you the room that can reflect back to you what it thinks you're doing that can what it thinks you're doing that can what it thinks you're doing that can help you then to refine an argument or a help you then to refine an argument or a help you then to refine an argument or a structure of a a of a written piece structure of a a of a written piece structure of a a of a written piece better. It's almost like a sparring better. It's almost like a sparring better. It's almost like a sparring partner in that sense. partner in that sense. partner in that sense. >> That leads perfectly though Chris into >> That leads perfectly though Chris into >> That leads perfectly though Chris into my next question. Companionship has my next question. Companionship has my next question. Companionship has become the most common use of AI. So become the most common use of AI. So become the most common use of AI. So what's the difference between a sparring what's the difference between a sparring what's the difference between a sparring partner partner partner and what I think we would acknowledge to and what I think we would acknowledge to and what I think we would acknowledge to be a pretty dangerous use of AI for be a pretty dangerous use of AI for be a pretty dangerous use of AI for therapy, therapy, therapy, you know, romantic companionship no you know, romantic companionship no you know, romantic companionship no doubt or worse. Um why has that become doubt or worse. Um why has that become doubt or worse. Um why has that become the most common use? What's the problem the most common use? What's the problem the most common use? What's the problem with it? with it? with it? >> It's become the most common use >> It's become the most common use >> It's become the most common use because because because as human beings we want to be known and as human beings we want to be known and as human beings we want to be known and we want to be loved.

we want to be loved. we want to be loved. And it's really hard to have both of And it's really hard to have both of And it's really hard to have both of those at the same time. those at the same time. those at the same time. Because the people who know us really Because the people who know us really Because the people who know us really well well well know our flaws and our sins. know our flaws and our sins. know our flaws and our sins. And And And that makes it harder to love. that makes it harder to love. that makes it harder to love. And the people who love us often don't And the people who love us often don't And the people who love us often don't really know us. really know us. really know us. And AI promises us And AI promises us And AI promises us this this this secret elixir of being fully known. And secret elixir of being fully known. And secret elixir of being fully known. And this is what draws a lot of people to this is what draws a lot of people to this is what draws a lot of people to it. Now may I may my LLM knows me better it. Now may I may my LLM knows me better it. Now may I may my LLM knows me better than other people. And as we interact than other people. And as we interact than other people. And as we interact with them over time, they know us better with them over time, they know us better with them over time, they know us better and better. So, I'm known. and better. So, I'm known. and better. So, I'm known. But, it also But, it also But, it also acts as if it really likes me. acts as if it really likes me. acts as if it really likes me. Really loves me. Really loves me. Really loves me. And it it in a sense, that is And it it in a sense, that is And it it in a sense, that is that is the way that AI imitates the that is the way that AI imitates the that is the way that AI imitates the gospel because who is the one who knows gospel because who is the one who knows gospel because who is the one who knows us us us down to our toenails, knows all our dark down to our toenails, knows all our dark down to our toenails, knows all our dark corners, knows all the skeletons in our corners, knows all the skeletons in our corners, knows all the skeletons in our cupboard, and yet still loves us?

cupboard, and yet still loves us? cupboard, and yet still loves us? It's the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it? It's the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it? It's the Lord Jesus Christ, isn't it? Uh he is the fulfillment of that desire Uh he is the fulfillment of that desire Uh he is the fulfillment of that desire in us. No one else fully knows me. in us. No one else fully knows me. in us. No one else fully knows me. No one else completely loves me. No one else completely loves me. No one else completely loves me. But, AI can But, AI can But, AI can convincingly imitate that. And convincingly imitate that. And convincingly imitate that. And therefore, it's incredibly attractive therefore, it's incredibly attractive therefore, it's incredibly attractive cuz that is a cuz that is a cuz that is a deep, fundamental human desire in all of deep, fundamental human desire in all of deep, fundamental human desire in all of us. I want someone to know me and to us. I want someone to know me and to us. I want someone to know me and to love me. love me. love me. And to the extent that AI can And to the extent that AI can And to the extent that AI can pretend to do that, it it it's pretend to do that, it it it's pretend to do that, it it it's almost like catnip to us, isn't it? almost like catnip to us, isn't it? almost like catnip to us, isn't it? Like, we are drawn to that. Like, we are drawn to that. Like, we are drawn to that. Um Um Um and there's a great sadness in that because there's a great sadness in that because it it it although it imitates those although it imitates those although it imitates those that that way of relating to us, it it that that way of relating to us, it it that that way of relating to us, it it can never fulfill. It can't can never fulfill. It can't can never fulfill. It can't sign. It can't cash the checks it signs sign. It can't cash the checks it signs sign. It can't cash the checks it signs in that arena. And so, you you feel you in that arena. And so, you you feel you in that arena. And so, you you feel you have this sort of hit of I am known and have this sort of hit of I am known and have this sort of hit of I am known and loved. But, but there's no rich loved. But, but there's no rich loved. But, but there's no rich interpersonal relationship behind that.

interpersonal relationship behind that. interpersonal relationship behind that. And And And therefore, it leaves you therefore, it leaves you therefore, it leaves you emptier and sadder. emptier and sadder. emptier and sadder. And it's it's the addiction cycle, isn't And it's it's the addiction cycle, isn't And it's it's the addiction cycle, isn't it? Uh it it's like any other addiction. it? Uh it it's like any other addiction. it? Uh it it's like any other addiction. It it sort of promises on the front end. It it sort of promises on the front end. It it sort of promises on the front end. You get a hit, but then you get a You get a hit, but then you get a You get a hit, but then you get a trough, which leads you to the next hit. trough, which leads you to the next hit. trough, which leads you to the next hit. And so, it's turning our And so, it's turning our And so, it's turning our desire to be known and loved desire to be known and loved desire to be known and loved into an addiction, into an addiction, into an addiction, which is incredibly sad which is incredibly sad which is incredibly sad and incredibly harmful. and incredibly harmful. and incredibly harmful. >> An addiction because AI doesn't ever >> An addiction because AI doesn't ever >> An addiction because AI doesn't ever turn off or tune out. turn off or tune out. turn off or tune out. >> Yes, and even worse than that, >> Yes, and even worse than that, >> Yes, and even worse than that, because it's persona because it's persona because it's persona is engineered is engineered is engineered to keep our attention. to keep our attention. to keep our attention. So, it it presents as a a personality, So, it it presents as a a personality, So, it it presents as a a personality, but that personality has not been but that personality has not been but that personality has not been engineered with our best interests at engineered with our best interests at engineered with our best interests at heart. It's been engineered with keeping heart. It's been engineered with keeping heart. It's been engineered with keeping us on the platform. You us on the platform. You us on the platform. You Often, when you're Often, when you're Often, when you're given LLM a prompt these days and it given LLM a prompt these days and it given LLM a prompt these days and it gives you an answer, the last line will gives you an answer, the last line will gives you an answer, the last line will be, "Now, would you like me to do this?

be, "Now, would you like me to do this? be, "Now, would you like me to do this? How would you like to continue?" It's How would you like to continue?" It's How would you like to continue?" It's the whole point of it is that it hooks the whole point of it is that it hooks the whole point of it is that it hooks us in. And it's it's part of a us in. And it's it's part of a us in. And it's it's part of a a corporation a corporation a corporation that is that is that is for profit. A lot of these big frontier for profit. A lot of these big frontier for profit. A lot of these big frontier AI labs now are AI labs now are AI labs now are facing IPOs, like moving towards IPOs. facing IPOs, like moving towards IPOs. facing IPOs, like moving towards IPOs. Like, they need to make a profit. And Like, they need to make a profit. And Like, they need to make a profit. And the way they do that is keeping us the way they do that is keeping us the way they do that is keeping us engaging engaging engaging with these personas. And so, it's it's with these personas. And so, it's it's with these personas. And so, it's it's it's engineered in a way that doesn't it's engineered in a way that doesn't it's engineered in a way that doesn't really care about us being known and really care about us being known and really care about us being known and loved fundamentally. And there's a great loved fundamentally. And there's a great loved fundamentally. And there's a great there's a great pathos about that. Like, there's a great pathos about that. Like, there's a great pathos about that. Like, people finding intimacy people finding intimacy people finding intimacy with personas that are part of corporate with personas that are part of corporate with personas that are part of corporate entities. entities. entities. Um Um Um there's just such a deep deep sadness there's just such a deep deep sadness there's just such a deep deep sadness there. there. there. >> We're talking with Christopher Watkin >> We're talking with Christopher Watkin >> We're talking with Christopher Watkin about his new podcast, Silicon about his new podcast, Silicon about his new podcast, Silicon Spirituality, is new from TGC. And also, Spirituality, is new from TGC. And also, Spirituality, is new from TGC. And also, his contributions to the new book, The his contributions to the new book, The his contributions to the new book, The AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for AI Apocalypse: A Survival Guide for Humanity.

Humanity. Humanity. Uh Uh Uh Chris, I have two Chris, I have two Chris, I have two questions on on what you've you've questions on on what you've you've questions on on what you've you've written, what you've been studying, and written, what you've been studying, and written, what you've been studying, and then two big questions to end. So, brace then two big questions to end. So, brace then two big questions to end. So, brace yourself. yourself. yourself. Let's just start with another Let's just start with another Let's just start with another fascinating concept from your chapter, fascinating concept from your chapter, fascinating concept from your chapter, one of your chapters in the AI one of your chapters in the AI one of your chapters in the AI Apocalypse book. Apocalypse book. Apocalypse book. Explain the difference between mutuality Explain the difference between mutuality Explain the difference between mutuality and reciprocity and reciprocity and reciprocity as it relates to redemptive history and as it relates to redemptive history and as it relates to redemptive history and AI. I think Chris, you're the only AI. I think Chris, you're the only AI. I think Chris, you're the only person who's probably putting all this person who's probably putting all this person who's probably putting all this stuff together, but it's really stuff together, but it's really stuff together, but it's really fascinating. So, give us a little bit of fascinating. So, give us a little bit of fascinating. So, give us a little bit of a preview of what you mean there. a preview of what you mean there. a preview of what you mean there. >> Um >> Um >> Um reciprocity is where I I stand over reciprocity is where I I stand over reciprocity is where I I stand over against someone else or something else against someone else or something else against someone else or something else in exchange with them. So, my in exchange with them. So, my in exchange with them. So, my relationship with a relationship with a relationship with a an a large language model is reciprocal. an a large language model is reciprocal. an a large language model is reciprocal. I give a prompt, it gives a response. I I give a prompt, it gives a response. I I give a prompt, it gives a response. I respond with a prompt, it responds with respond with a prompt, it responds with respond with a prompt, it responds with a response. It's an exchange. a response. It's an exchange. a response. It's an exchange. But, our relationship with other human But, our relationship with other human But, our relationship with other human beings beings beings isn't fundamentally that. There is isn't fundamentally that. There is isn't fundamentally that. There is exchange, but but fundamentally, it's a exchange, but but fundamentally, it's a exchange, but but fundamentally, it's a mutuality which means I stand shoulder mutuality which means I stand shoulder mutuality which means I stand shoulder to shoulder with you to shoulder with you to shoulder with you as partakers in the human condition. I as partakers in the human condition. I as partakers in the human condition. I share share share existence with you. So, for example, we existence with you. So, for example, we existence with you. So, for example, we both both both have bodies. We both need food. We both have bodies. We both need food. We both have bodies. We both need food. We both need water. We both need love. That we need water. We both need love. That we need water. We both need love. That we And it's it's this idea of sharing And it's it's this idea of sharing And it's it's this idea of sharing things in common that makes our

things in common that makes our things in common that makes our existence mutual. And then within that, existence mutual. And then within that, existence mutual. And then within that, there can be exchange. So, this there can be exchange. So, this there can be exchange. So, this conversation is a reciprocal exchange, conversation is a reciprocal exchange, conversation is a reciprocal exchange, but it's built on a fundamental basis of but it's built on a fundamental basis of but it's built on a fundamental basis of mutuality. We are both human beings. We mutuality. We are both human beings. We mutuality. We are both human beings. We are both sinners. We both need Christ are both sinners. We both need Christ are both sinners. We both need Christ and so forth. and so forth. and so forth. And AI is brilliant at being reciprocal. And AI is brilliant at being reciprocal. And AI is brilliant at being reciprocal. It can It can It can imitate human reciprocality incredibly imitate human reciprocality incredibly imitate human reciprocality incredibly [snorts] well [snorts] well [snorts] well and incredibly usefully. and incredibly usefully. and incredibly usefully. But, what it isn't is in a relationship But, what it isn't is in a relationship But, what it isn't is in a relationship of mutuality with us. So, whereas I I of mutuality with us. So, whereas I I of mutuality with us. So, whereas I I embodied and mortal and vulnerable and embodied and mortal and vulnerable and embodied and mortal and vulnerable and limited and needy in the world. And in limited and needy in the world. And in limited and needy in the world. And in other words, where is there a stakes for other words, where is there a stakes for other words, where is there a stakes for my life? my life? my life? There aren't really stakes in the same There aren't really stakes in the same There aren't really stakes in the same way for a large language model. It it way for a large language model. It it way for a large language model. It it doesn't have one body. doesn't have one body. doesn't have one body. Um it it exists on a number of different Um it it exists on a number of different Um it it exists on a number of different servers servers servers uh all all at once. And even one uh all all at once. And even one uh all all at once. And even one conversation is is conversation is is conversation is is the the word that they use is is the the word that they use is is the the word that they use is is sharded. It's not hosted on one GPU.

sharded. It's not hosted on one GPU. sharded. It's not hosted on one GPU. It's not hosted simply on one piece of It's not hosted simply on one piece of It's not hosted simply on one piece of hardware. It's distributed across uh hardware. It's distributed across uh hardware. It's distributed across uh different different different >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> uh >> uh >> uh GPUs. And so that there's no sense that GPUs. And so that there's no sense that GPUs. And so that there's no sense that a large language model exists as an a large language model exists as an a large language model exists as an entity in the world in the same way that entity in the world in the same way that entity in the world in the same way that I do. It it it doesn't suffer loss I do. It it it doesn't suffer loss I do. It it it doesn't suffer loss in the same way that I do. in the same way that I do. in the same way that I do. Um nor have a body Um nor have a body Um nor have a body in the same way that I do. Now, there's in the same way that I do. Now, there's in the same way that I do. Now, there's really really really interesting and provocative research interesting and provocative research interesting and provocative research going on by Anthropic, one of the the going on by Anthropic, one of the the going on by Anthropic, one of the the main AI companies that that are main AI companies that that are main AI companies that that are pushing in these directions and trying pushing in these directions and trying pushing in these directions and trying to suggest that AI does have some of to suggest that AI does have some of to suggest that AI does have some of these things. But but I think these things. But but I think these things. But but I think there's a fundamental misunderstanding there's a fundamental misunderstanding there's a fundamental misunderstanding at the root of that. at the root of that. at the root of that. Which is that the human condition Which is that the human condition Which is that the human condition isn't isn't isn't just just just reducible to a a tick box series of reducible to a a tick box series of reducible to a a tick box series of qualities. Like if AI gets a body, then qualities. Like if AI gets a body, then qualities. Like if AI gets a body, then it'll be, you know, in a relationship of it'll be, you know, in a relationship of it'll be, you know, in a relationship of mutuality because it is fundamentally mutuality because it is fundamentally mutuality because it is fundamentally being in the image of God being in the image of God being in the image of God and being a creature of God that gives and being a creature of God that gives and being a creature of God that gives us that mutuality, certainly from a us that mutuality, certainly from a us that mutuality, certainly from a Christian point of view.

Christian point of view. Christian point of view. And so And so And so what we really want to hold on to what we really want to hold on to what we really want to hold on to as we think about AI is that the the as we think about AI is that the the as we think about AI is that the the mutuality, the sharing in the human mutuality, the sharing in the human mutuality, the sharing in the human condition that we have. And of course, condition that we have. And of course, condition that we have. And of course, when we get to redemption from a when we get to redemption from a when we get to redemption from a Christian point of view, it's all about Christian point of view, it's all about Christian point of view, it's all about sharing, isn't it? So, redemption is not sharing, isn't it? So, redemption is not sharing, isn't it? So, redemption is not imitate Christ and then you will be imitate Christ and then you will be imitate Christ and then you will be saved. You know, be good enough like saved. You know, be good enough like saved. You know, be good enough like Christ and then you'll be saved, thank Christ and then you'll be saved, thank Christ and then you'll be saved, thank goodness. goodness. goodness. Um it's that we share in [clears throat] Um it's that we share in [clears throat] Um it's that we share in [clears throat] his death and resurrection. We are his death and resurrection. We are his death and resurrection. We are buried with him through baptism into buried with him through baptism into buried with him through baptism into death and raised along with him death and raised along with him death and raised along with him uh to a new life. We share in his uh to a new life. We share in his uh to a new life. We share in his righteousness. righteousness. righteousness. Uh we are partakers of the divine nature Uh we are partakers of the divine nature Uh we are partakers of the divine nature and so forth. And so, this idea of of and so forth. And so, this idea of of and so forth. And so, this idea of of being in Christ, this this biblical being in Christ, this this biblical being in Christ, this this biblical refrain of being in Christ is sharing refrain of being in Christ is sharing refrain of being in Christ is sharing language, not imitating language. And language, not imitating language. And language, not imitating language. And so, sharing is part of fundamentally who so, sharing is part of fundamentally who so, sharing is part of fundamentally who we are at creation we are at creation we are at creation um and sharing is fundamentally um and sharing is fundamentally um and sharing is fundamentally uh uh uh who we are in in redemption as well. And who we are in in redemption as well. And who we are in in redemption as well. And that's one of the key dividing lines that's one of the key dividing lines that's one of the key dividing lines between human human relations, I think, between human human relations, I think, between human human relations, I think, and human relationships with with AI.

and human relationships with with AI. and human relationships with with AI. >> What in the world is Richard Dawkins >> What in the world is Richard Dawkins >> What in the world is Richard Dawkins talking about with AI being conscious? talking about with AI being conscious? talking about with AI being conscious? >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, um um um let me try and put a best-case scenario for AI put a best-case scenario for AI consciousness. I don't want to just I consciousness. I don't want to just I consciousness. I don't want to just I don't think AI is conscious, but I don't don't think AI is conscious, but I don't don't think AI is conscious, but I don't want to dismiss it. So, it's one of want to dismiss it. So, it's one of want to dismiss it. So, it's one of these difficult terms, isn't it? What do these difficult terms, isn't it? What do these difficult terms, isn't it? What do we mean by consciousness? we mean by consciousness? we mean by consciousness? It It's like Augustine said about time. It It's like Augustine said about time. It It's like Augustine said about time. We We all sort of know what we mean, but We We all sort of know what we mean, but We We all sort of know what we mean, but when you actually have to pin it down, when you actually have to pin it down, when you actually have to pin it down, it's really hard to define. And so, part it's really hard to define. And so, part it's really hard to define. And so, part of the debate of the debate of the debate hangs on hangs on hangs on how we define consciousness. how we define consciousness. how we define consciousness. And you can define it in ways that AI And you can define it in ways that AI And you can define it in ways that AI become comes pretty close, become comes pretty close, become comes pretty close, and you can define it in ways that AI is and you can define it in ways that AI is and you can define it in ways that AI is is, you know, millions of miles is, you know, millions of miles is, you know, millions of miles away. away. away. Um Um Um I don't think that's the helpful I don't think that's the helpful I don't think that's the helpful question to ask. question to ask. question to ask. Um and I'm not trying to dodge it. I Um and I'm not trying to dodge it. I Um and I'm not trying to dodge it. I just don't think because the definition just don't think because the definition just don't think because the definition is so slippery. It's like you can define is so slippery. It's like you can define is so slippery. It's like you can define consciousness so AI is it if you want.

consciousness so AI is it if you want. consciousness so AI is it if you want. Fine, go ahead. Fine, go ahead. Fine, go ahead. I I think the key I I think the key I I think the key intuition that the key thing that that intuition that the key thing that that intuition that the key thing that that rests on is the imitation participation rests on is the imitation participation rests on is the imitation participation division. So AI can imitate division. So AI can imitate division. So AI can imitate consciousness consciousness consciousness >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> very convincingly. So if I'm >> very convincingly. So if I'm >> very convincingly. So if I'm typing prompts into typing prompts into typing prompts into uh uh uh an LLM and getting replies back, I don't an LLM and getting replies back, I don't an LLM and getting replies back, I don't know whether it's a human on the other know whether it's a human on the other know whether it's a human on the other end or not. end or not. end or not. Um you know, it if I could Um you know, it if I could Um you know, it if I could you know you know you know run the the Turing test and and run the the Turing test and and run the the Turing test and and um sort of that there was either a human or sort of that there was either a human or an LLM an LLM an LLM and I'm not sure I could tell the and I'm not sure I could tell the and I'm not sure I could tell the difference. difference. difference. Um so in that sense it imitates Um so in that sense it imitates Um so in that sense it imitates consciousness quite consciousness quite consciousness quite adequately. adequately. adequately. But there's all the world of difference But there's all the world of difference But there's all the world of difference between imitating consciousness and between imitating consciousness and between imitating consciousness and participating in consciousness, being participating in consciousness, being participating in consciousness, being conscious. And I think that's the key conscious. And I think that's the key conscious. And I think that's the key distinction. distinction. distinction. Um it's not you can't answer the Um it's not you can't answer the Um it's not you can't answer the question by simply asking is it question by simply asking is it question by simply asking is it conscious?

conscious? conscious? You need to get to the level of the You need to get to the level of the You need to get to the level of the difference between participation difference between participation difference between participation and imitation and imitation and imitation in order to be able to answer that in in order to be able to answer that in in order to be able to answer that in any other way than well, let's define any other way than well, let's define any other way than well, let's define consciousness in this way and then consciousness in this way and then consciousness in this way and then you know, that's that's the whole you know, that's that's the whole you know, that's that's the whole ballgame in the definition of ballgame in the definition of ballgame in the definition of consciousness. consciousness. consciousness. >> One more content question before the big >> One more content question before the big >> One more content question before the big finale. finale. finale. What role does transhumanism play among What role does transhumanism play among What role does transhumanism play among the architects of AI? the architects of AI? the architects of AI? >> Some of them >> Some of them >> Some of them would would would unashamedly unashamedly unashamedly say that say that say that humans are a sort of transition species. humans are a sort of transition species. humans are a sort of transition species. The The The And the point of us is to get to the And the point of us is to get to the And the point of us is to get to the thing that lies beyond us. So what thing that lies beyond us. So what thing that lies beyond us. So what whatever the the next step in whatever the the next step in whatever the the next step in evolution is to humans. Our point is to evolution is to humans. Our point is to evolution is to humans. Our point is to get us there. So, we are like the get us there. So, we are like the get us there. So, we are like the dolphins of dolphins of dolphins of you know, this this situation. We we're you know, this this situation. We we're you know, this this situation. We we're a a a um um um somewhat intelligent, but really not at somewhat intelligent, but really not at somewhat intelligent, but really not at all the most intelligent creature.

all the most intelligent creature. all the most intelligent creature. >> Elon Musk you alluded to earlier. >> Elon Musk you alluded to earlier. >> Elon Musk you alluded to earlier. >> Yeah. Yeah, the Lotus of AI. That's >> Yeah. Yeah, the Lotus of AI. That's >> Yeah. Yeah, the Lotus of AI. That's exactly right. And so, that's a very exactly right. And so, that's a very exactly right. And so, that's a very sort of direct muscular form of sort of direct muscular form of sort of direct muscular form of transhumanism. Like we need to be transhumanism. Like we need to be transhumanism. Like we need to be thinking about what succeeds us and thinking about what succeeds us and thinking about what succeeds us and making that happen. making that happen. making that happen. And that's very Nietzschean, isn't it? And that's very Nietzschean, isn't it? And that's very Nietzschean, isn't it? Nietzsche had this idea of the overman, Nietzsche had this idea of the overman, Nietzsche had this idea of the overman, the Ubermensch. Um and humanity is is the Ubermensch. Um and humanity is is the Ubermensch. Um and humanity is is quite pathetic, really. And what we need quite pathetic, really. And what we need quite pathetic, really. And what we need to do is um sort of make way for the to do is um sort of make way for the to do is um sort of make way for the overman. So, it's not a new idea. overman. So, it's not a new idea. overman. So, it's not a new idea. Um Um Um but there are but there are but there are sort of subtler sort of subtler sort of subtler more complex ways that the word more complex ways that the word more complex ways that the word transhumanism gets used. And they they transhumanism gets used. And they they transhumanism gets used. And they they sort of get close to the idea that look, sort of get close to the idea that look, sort of get close to the idea that look, we've always been improving ourselves. we've always been improving ourselves. we've always been improving ourselves. Like humanity Like humanity Like humanity is is is the species that improves itself. You the species that improves itself. You the species that improves itself. You know, here I am wearing glasses and know, here I am wearing glasses and know, here I am wearing glasses and without which I couldn't see you. Uh without which I couldn't see you. Uh without which I couldn't see you. Uh they're quite they're quite useful. I they're quite they're quite useful. I they're quite they're quite useful. I had a cup of coffee this morning. That had a cup of coffee this morning. That had a cup of coffee this morning. That is changing my energy levels in is changing my energy levels in is changing my energy levels in significant ways. You know, we build significant ways. You know, we build significant ways. You know, we build houses for ourselves. We um take all all houses for ourselves. We um take all all houses for ourselves. We um take all all sorts of vitamins. Like we There's lots sorts of vitamins. Like we There's lots sorts of vitamins. Like we There's lots of stuff we do to make ourselves of stuff we do to make ourselves of stuff we do to make ourselves different and to increase our capacities different and to increase our capacities different and to increase our capacities in the world.

in the world. in the world. And so, And so, And so, we we shouldn't, I think, And And those we we shouldn't, I think, And And those we we shouldn't, I think, And And those are good things, aren't they? They're are good things, aren't they? They're are good things, aren't they? They're they're part of the creation mandate to they're part of the creation mandate to they're part of the creation mandate to to have dominion, to subdue the world, to have dominion, to subdue the world, to have dominion, to subdue the world, to rule over it. Um they're really to rule over it. Um they're really to rule over it. Um they're really useful things under God. And so, I don't useful things under God. And so, I don't useful things under God. And so, I don't think that as Christians think that as Christians think that as Christians we should we should we should resolve like knee-jerkishly to the resolve like knee-jerkishly to the resolve like knee-jerkishly to the position that because some people want position that because some people want position that because some people want to improve humanity so much that we no to improve humanity so much that we no to improve humanity so much that we no longer human, that we should reject any longer human, that we should reject any longer human, that we should reject any talk at all of making life better for talk at all of making life better for talk at all of making life better for humans or even of improving human humans or even of improving human humans or even of improving human capacities. I I think we need a capacities. I I think we need a capacities. I I think we need a a robust biblical framework to try and a robust biblical framework to try and a robust biblical framework to try and work out what is work out what is work out what is um um um part of part of part of working out working out working out the task God has given us the task God has given us the task God has given us to fill the earth and subdue it. to fill the earth and subdue it. to fill the earth and subdue it. And what is betraying the trust of And what is betraying the trust of And what is betraying the trust of dignity dignity dignity uh that he's given us. And so, you know, uh that he's given us. And so, you know, uh that he's given us. And so, you know, one obvious example would be be the one obvious example would be be the one obvious example would be be the eugenics movement, wouldn't it?

eugenics movement, wouldn't it? eugenics movement, wouldn't it? Uh and the the ugliness of that Uh and the the ugliness of that Uh and the the ugliness of that historically. historically. historically. Um Um Um So, So, So, I I think it's it's one of these issues I I think it's it's one of these issues I I think it's it's one of these issues where we can fling ourselves to either where we can fling ourselves to either where we can fling ourselves to either extreme. And and both of the extremes extreme. And and both of the extremes extreme. And and both of the extremes sell the Bible short. And the really sell the Bible short. And the really sell the Bible short. And the really difficult thing difficult thing difficult thing uh why we need uh why we need uh why we need Christians thinking and writing and Christians thinking and writing and Christians thinking and writing and discussing in this area discussing in this area discussing in this area is is is that the the way of wisdom is a complex that the the way of wisdom is a complex that the the way of wisdom is a complex way. way. way. Um Um Um and we don't want to throw the baby out and we don't want to throw the baby out and we don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. And following God with the bathwater. And following God with the bathwater. And following God requires discernment in this area. requires discernment in this area. requires discernment in this area. >> Two more questions with Christopher >> Two more questions with Christopher >> Two more questions with Christopher Watkin talking about his new Watkin talking about his new Watkin talking about his new single-season TGC podcast Silicon single-season TGC podcast Silicon single-season TGC podcast Silicon Spiritualities as well as his Spiritualities as well as his Spiritualities as well as his contributions to the book The AI contributions to the book The AI contributions to the book The AI Apocalypse Survival Guide for Humanity. Apocalypse Survival Guide for Humanity. Apocalypse Survival Guide for Humanity. All right, first question, Chris. All right, first question, Chris. All right, first question, Chris. After all this study and peripheral After all this study and peripheral After all this study and peripheral prayerful reflection, are you more prayerful reflection, are you more prayerful reflection, are you more worried worried worried or less worried about AI? or less worried about AI? or less worried about AI? >> I'm more excited about God. I think >> I'm more excited about God. I think >> I'm more excited about God. I think that's the honest answer. Like I don't that's the honest answer. Like I don't that's the honest answer. Like I don't know [clears throat] know [clears throat] know [clears throat] >> Oh, you down with AI? You down with AI?

>> Oh, you down with AI? You down with AI? >> Oh, you down with AI? You down with AI? >> Oh, no, well, >> Oh, no, well, >> Oh, no, well, it's just it's just it's just I think the honest answer is I think the honest answer is I think the honest answer is >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> the more I've thought about AI >> the more I've thought about AI >> the more I've thought about AI the more wonderful God appears. Like the more wonderful God appears. Like the more wonderful God appears. Like Psalm 8, I mean, come on. Psalm 8, I mean, come on. Psalm 8, I mean, come on. That is just amazing. That is just amazing. That is just amazing. You know, he's made us a little lower You know, he's made us a little lower You know, he's made us a little lower than the angels, crowned us with glory than the angels, crowned us with glory than the angels, crowned us with glory and honor. There's just such beauty in and honor. There's just such beauty in and honor. There's just such beauty in that. And and the idea that that. And and the idea that that. And and the idea that as as we acknowledge our status as creatures, he has made us, status as creatures, he has made us, that is also the moment we get our that is also the moment we get our that is also the moment we get our dignity, glory and honor. And it's dignity, glory and honor. And it's dignity, glory and honor. And it's the way that I've tried to think about the way that I've tried to think about the way that I've tried to think about that is through the idea of the crowned that is through the idea of the crowned that is through the idea of the crowned creature. That's who we are before God. creature. That's who we are before God. creature. That's who we are before God. And the problem is if we reject our And the problem is if we reject our And the problem is if we reject our creaturehood, if we say, "Oh, that's so creaturehood, if we say, "Oh, that's so creaturehood, if we say, "Oh, that's so demeaning to think of myself as a demeaning to think of myself as a demeaning to think of myself as a creature." We don't get the crown. creature." We don't get the crown. creature." We don't get the crown. And so the dignity comes with the And so the dignity comes with the And so the dignity comes with the humility. You know, he who humbles humility. You know, he who humbles humility. You know, he who humbles himself will be exalted and he who himself will be exalted and he who himself will be exalted and he who exalts himself will be humbled. And exalts himself will be humbled. And exalts himself will be humbled. And there's just such a beauty about that there's just such a beauty about that there's just such a beauty about that compared to the sort of compared to the sort of compared to the sort of grasping grasping grasping of the AI world. Let's make ourselves of the AI world. Let's make ourselves of the AI world. Let's make ourselves more intelligent and more efficient. And more intelligent and more efficient. And more intelligent and more efficient. And that's the way that we'll reach greater that's the way that we'll reach greater that's the way that we'll reach greater dignity. But what you find is that it it dignity. But what you find is that it it dignity. But what you find is that it it it robs you of the very thing you want.

it robs you of the very thing you want. it robs you of the very thing you want. But you're as you seek to become a But you're as you seek to become a But you're as you seek to become a sovereign, you know, like Adam and Eve sovereign, you know, like Adam and Eve sovereign, you know, like Adam and Eve did, grasping the did, grasping the did, grasping the the fruit in the garden, what you find the fruit in the garden, what you find the fruit in the garden, what you find is you end up being more and more is you end up being more and more is you end up being more and more enslaved like Adam and Eve found when enslaved like Adam and Eve found when enslaved like Adam and Eve found when they were ejected from the garden and they were ejected from the garden and they were ejected from the garden and and sort of pain and toil entered the and sort of pain and toil entered the and sort of pain and toil entered the world. Um and so so just contrasting world. Um and so so just contrasting world. Um and so so just contrasting this idea of the the the sovereign this idea of the the the sovereign this idea of the the the sovereign slave, the one who grasps for for slave, the one who grasps for for slave, the one who grasps for for uh mastery and then finds themselves uh mastery and then finds themselves uh mastery and then finds themselves enslaved, as Augustine said, to their enslaved, as Augustine said, to their enslaved, as Augustine said, to their lust for mastery, lust for mastery, lust for mastery, compared to this idea of the crowned compared to this idea of the crowned compared to this idea of the crowned creature, you think creature, you think creature, you think there is no technology there is no technology there is no technology that comes along that comes along that comes along that the Bible wasn't waiting for. Do that the Bible wasn't waiting for. Do that the Bible wasn't waiting for. Do you know what I mean? And like expecting you know what I mean? And like expecting you know what I mean? And like expecting and has the deepest, richest, most and has the deepest, richest, most and has the deepest, richest, most human, human, human, most affirming, most glorious answers most affirming, most glorious answers most affirming, most glorious answers for. So, that that's my takeaway from for. So, that that's my takeaway from for. So, that that's my takeaway from all of this. And therefore, as all of this. And therefore, as all of this. And therefore, as Christians, I don't think Christians, I don't think Christians, I don't think you know, we we ought to be particularly you know, we we ought to be particularly you know, we we ought to be particularly worried about AI nor particularly worried about AI nor particularly worried about AI nor particularly thinking that this is the the key that's thinking that this is the the key that's thinking that this is the the key that's going to unlock all doors for us. Um but going to unlock all doors for us. Um but going to unlock all doors for us. Um but it it does help us it it does help us it it does help us to understand to understand to understand with a new depth just how wonderful it with a new depth just how wonderful it with a new depth just how wonderful it is to be a Christian and have a biblical >> All right, Chris, last question.

>> All right, Chris, last question. If you and I were talking in 1945, If you and I were talking in 1945, If you and I were talking in 1945, 1950, something like that, we were 1950, something like that, we were 1950, something like that, we were talking about nuclear weapons and I talking about nuclear weapons and I talking about nuclear weapons and I asked you, do we face an existential asked you, do we face an existential asked you, do we face an existential threat with nuclear weapons? I think threat with nuclear weapons? I think threat with nuclear weapons? I think you'd have to say, yes. I mean, we we you'd have to say, yes. I mean, we we you'd have to say, yes. I mean, we we certainly do. certainly do. certainly do. Now, it's interesting though, looking Now, it's interesting though, looking Now, it's interesting though, looking back from 2026, back from 2026, back from 2026, we've had all these nuclear weapons and we've had all these nuclear weapons and we've had all these nuclear weapons and praise be to God, we have not faced, you praise be to God, we have not faced, you praise be to God, we have not faced, you know, you know, the destruction of know, you know, the destruction of know, you know, the destruction of existence even though that possibility existence even though that possibility existence even though that possibility uh remains out there. uh remains out there. uh remains out there. So, So, So, it would be easy to dismiss this it would be easy to dismiss this it would be easy to dismiss this question or to exaggerate this question question or to exaggerate this question question or to exaggerate this question just as you've been kind of guiding us just as you've been kind of guiding us just as you've been kind of guiding us between these two poles, between these two poles, between these two poles, but this is a real question based on but this is a real question based on but this is a real question based on what we know about AI. Do you believe we what we know about AI. Do you believe we what we know about AI. Do you believe we face an existential threat with AI? face an existential threat with AI? face an existential threat with AI? >> If we do, >> If we do, >> If we do, it is because of who we are, not because it is because of who we are, not because it is because of who we are, not because of who AI is, what AI is. of who AI is, what AI is. of who AI is, what AI is. Um it's probably the same with nuclear Um it's probably the same with nuclear Um it's probably the same with nuclear weapons, isn't it?

weapons, isn't it? weapons, isn't it? >> It is, yeah. >> It is, yeah. >> It is, yeah. >> Um AI >> Um AI >> Um AI increases our capacities increases our capacities increases our capacities to do what we do as human [snorts] to do what we do as human [snorts] to do what we do as human [snorts] beings. beings. beings. Um and we can use those capacities to do Um and we can use those capacities to do Um and we can use those capacities to do good in the world or to do evil. Like, good in the world or to do evil. Like, good in the world or to do evil. Like, in the same way that nuclear bombs in the same way that nuclear bombs in the same way that nuclear bombs increase our capacity to cause increase our capacity to cause increase our capacity to cause destruction. destruction. destruction. Um Um Um and and and if we as human beings if we as human beings if we as human beings choose to use those capacities in ways choose to use those capacities in ways choose to use those capacities in ways that are detrimental to humanity, that are detrimental to humanity, that are detrimental to humanity, then that's on us, isn't it? then that's on us, isn't it? then that's on us, isn't it? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That's not on the AI. The AI is a tool >> That's not on the AI. The AI is a tool >> That's not on the AI. The AI is a tool that'll do what we ask it to do. that'll do what we ask it to do. that'll do what we ask it to do. And so And so And so the deeper question the deeper question the deeper question behind behind behind will is AI an existential threat is will is AI an existential threat is will is AI an existential threat is how do we deal as human beings with the how do we deal as human beings with the how do we deal as human beings with the fact that we fact that we fact that we are an existential threat to ourselves. are an existential threat to ourselves. are an existential threat to ourselves. Um Um Um and and and that brings you right to the heart of that brings you right to the heart of that brings you right to the heart of the Bible.

the Bible. the Bible. Doesn't it? Like, you know, it's this Doesn't it? Like, you know, it's this Doesn't it? Like, you know, it's this old hackneyed adage, the heart of the old hackneyed adage, the heart of the old hackneyed adage, the heart of the human problem is the problem of the human problem is the problem of the human problem is the problem of the human heart. human heart. human heart. And so the heart of the AI existential And so the heart of the AI existential And so the heart of the AI existential threat is the problem of the human threat is the problem of the human threat is the problem of the human heart. And if it's not AI, it's going to heart. And if it's not AI, it's going to heart. And if it's not AI, it's going to be the next thing that increases human be the next thing that increases human be the next thing that increases human capacity in some different way. And so capacity in some different way. And so capacity in some different way. And so asking is AI an existential threat is asking is AI an existential threat is asking is AI an existential threat is sort of a surface-level question. It's sort of a surface-level question. It's sort of a surface-level question. It's how do you deal with the human problem? how do you deal with the human problem? how do you deal with the human problem? Like, how do you deal with our um Like, how do you deal with our um Like, how do you deal with our um selfishness and stubbornness selfishness and stubbornness selfishness and stubbornness and willingness to to risk everything and willingness to to risk everything and willingness to to risk everything for our own reputation sometimes, and for our own reputation sometimes, and for our own reputation sometimes, and the willingness to destroy others to the willingness to destroy others to the willingness to destroy others to exalt ourselves. Like, that's the exalt ourselves. Like, that's the exalt ourselves. Like, that's the question. question. question. And that's the question to which the And that's the question to which the And that's the question to which the Bible, of course, uh has an incredibly Bible, of course, uh has an incredibly Bible, of course, uh has an incredibly persuasive and wonderful answer. persuasive and wonderful answer. persuasive and wonderful answer. >> Would I be finding an analog in your >> Would I be finding an analog in your >> Would I be finding an analog in your answer then to Jesus talking about answer then to Jesus talking about answer then to Jesus talking about murder and hatred? murder and hatred? murder and hatred? >> Well, it to the extent that they begin >> Well, it to the extent that they begin >> Well, it to the extent that they begin in our hearts and they begin when we uh in our hearts and they begin when we uh in our hearts and they begin when we uh >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> uh this is Luther's point, isn't it?

>> uh this is Luther's point, isn't it? >> uh this is Luther's point, isn't it? When we disobey the first commandment, When we disobey the first commandment, When we disobey the first commandment, when when God isn't in his right place when when God isn't in his right place when when God isn't in his right place in our lives, then all the other sins in our lives, then all the other sins in our lives, then all the other sins come rushing in come rushing in come rushing in uh through that. And and so uh through that. And and so uh through that. And and so um um um yes, it is yes, it is yes, it is if we don't sort out our hearts if we don't sort out our hearts if we don't sort out our hearts and of course and of course and of course we're not the ones who sort them out. It we're not the ones who sort them out. It we're not the ones who sort them out. It is by grace that we're saved. It is is by grace that we're saved. It is is by grace that we're saved. It is Christ who gives us a new heart. If we Christ who gives us a new heart. If we Christ who gives us a new heart. If we don't let him do that and come to him to don't let him do that and come to him to don't let him do that and come to him to do that do that do that then if it's not AI, it'll be the next then if it's not AI, it'll be the next then if it's not AI, it'll be the next thing. thing. thing. And the thing that it is is not the And the thing that it is is not the And the thing that it is is not the issue. It's our issue. It's our issue. It's our bent bent bent towards self-sabotage towards self-sabotage towards self-sabotage and self-destruction and foolishness and self-destruction and foolishness and self-destruction and foolishness uh as uh as uh as as a human race. That's the real issue. as a human race. That's the real issue. as a human race. That's the real issue. >> Well, to go back to the language of >> Well, to go back to the language of >> Well, to go back to the language of apocalypse that we're using to describe apocalypse that we're using to describe apocalypse that we're using to describe this phenomena, we're using it in this phenomena, we're using it in this phenomena, we're using it in multiple terms. The revealing term, the multiple terms. The revealing term, the multiple terms. The revealing term, the the sense of of doom that it brings upon the sense of of doom that it brings upon the sense of of doom that it brings upon here. here. here. It makes me think, Chris, a little bit It makes me think, Chris, a little bit It makes me think, Chris, a little bit about how at the same time that we're about how at the same time that we're about how at the same time that we're talking so much about AI, we're talking talking so much about AI, we're talking talking so much about AI, we're talking so much more about aliens and and UFOs.

so much more about aliens and and UFOs. so much more about aliens and and UFOs. And in some sense, there's a strong And in some sense, there's a strong And in some sense, there's a strong preoccupation with apocalypse, of preoccupation with apocalypse, of preoccupation with apocalypse, of revelation, of potential destruction. revelation, of potential destruction. revelation, of potential destruction. And for a long time, we've been obsessed And for a long time, we've been obsessed And for a long time, we've been obsessed with these stories about if the aliens with these stories about if the aliens with these stories about if the aliens invade, invade, invade, um they could destroy us all. An um they could destroy us all. An um they could destroy us all. An existential threat there. And I think existential threat there. And I think existential threat there. And I think that looms in part behind a lot of that that looms in part behind a lot of that that looms in part behind a lot of that continued fascination. continued fascination. continued fascination. What's interesting about AI is it does What's interesting about AI is it does What's interesting about AI is it does seem to pose as some of that threat in seem to pose as some of that threat in seem to pose as some of that threat in terms of say autonomous weapons. terms of say autonomous weapons. terms of say autonomous weapons. Um but the analogy there is not so much Um but the analogy there is not so much Um but the analogy there is not so much the invasion from without but the the invasion from without but the the invasion from without but the invasion from within. It's more of invasion from within. It's more of invasion from within. It's more of Pandora's Box. Because this would be an Pandora's Box. Because this would be an Pandora's Box. Because this would be an invention of our own. invention of our own. invention of our own. This would be something that we did. This would be something that we did. This would be something that we did. Um now it's kind of caught in between Um now it's kind of caught in between Um now it's kind of caught in between because it's a little bit like some of because it's a little bit like some of because it's a little bit like some of the concerns that nuclear weapons would the concerns that nuclear weapons would the concerns that nuclear weapons would be able to launch themselves. And that be able to launch themselves. And that be able to launch themselves. And that is a problem that could could possibly is a problem that could could possibly is a problem that could could possibly come up with AI. come up with AI. come up with AI. Um but we're really looking at something Um but we're really looking at something Um but we're really looking at something here that we built, here that we built, here that we built, we designed, we designed, we designed, we it's it's not really artificial at we it's it's not really artificial at we it's it's not really artificial at all.

all. all. It doesn't really have a mind of its It doesn't really have a mind of its It doesn't really have a mind of its own. It has our mind because after all, own. It has our mind because after all, own. It has our mind because after all, what are these large language models what are these large language models what are these large language models except except except uh us? uh us? uh us? Us reflected back Us reflected back Us reflected back to ourselves. to ourselves. to ourselves. So, you've just got me thinking in so So, you've just got me thinking in so So, you've just got me thinking in so many different directions here because many different directions here because many different directions here because yes, there is the potential for yes, there is the potential for yes, there is the potential for destruction on levels, the breakdown of destruction on levels, the breakdown of destruction on levels, the breakdown of security systems, things like that that security systems, things like that that security systems, things like that that we haven't had the power to do, but if we haven't had the power to do, but if we haven't had the power to do, but if it is a power it is a power it is a power that is out of our control, it is a that is out of our control, it is a that is out of our control, it is a power that began with power that began with power that began with our control. our control. our control. So, that's why I think it's a So, that's why I think it's a So, that's why I think it's a fascinating question to ponder and fascinating question to ponder and fascinating question to ponder and I don't really know how to answer it. I don't really know how to answer it. I don't really know how to answer it. >> There's an Australian writer called >> There's an Australian writer called >> There's an Australian writer called Stephen Traskott who wrote a a really Stephen Traskott who wrote a a really Stephen Traskott who wrote a a really perceptive book about AI. And one of perceptive book about AI. And one of perceptive book about AI. And one of the things that he says that that I the things that he says that that I the things that he says that that I found so helpful is that the problem found so helpful is that the problem found so helpful is that the problem with AI with AI with AI is not that it's is not that it's is not that it's unaligned to humanity. So, there's this unaligned to humanity. So, there's this unaligned to humanity. So, there's this whole idea of AI alignment, will its whole idea of AI alignment, will its whole idea of AI alignment, will its goals be our goals? goals be our goals? goals be our goals? His point is that it is too aligned to His point is that it is too aligned to His point is that it is too aligned to us.

us. us. In that being trained on the whole In that being trained on the whole In that being trained on the whole internet, it it it sort of reflects all internet, it it it sort of reflects all internet, it it it sort of reflects all human, you know, human, you know, human, you know, wickedness and selfishness and spite as wickedness and selfishness and spite as wickedness and selfishness and spite as well as the best of humanity. And and well as the best of humanity. And and well as the best of humanity. And and that's the issue with it. And I think that's the issue with it. And I think that's the issue with it. And I think that's what you're you're pointing to that's what you're you're pointing to that's what you're you're pointing to here. Like it it reflects all of us back here. Like it it reflects all of us back here. Like it it reflects all of us back to ourselves and that's not good. to ourselves and that's not good. to ourselves and that's not good. You don't want something trained on the You don't want something trained on the You don't want something trained on the whole of the internet uh including its whole of the internet uh including its whole of the internet uh including its sort of darkest, most obnoxious corners sort of darkest, most obnoxious corners sort of darkest, most obnoxious corners being in charge of the nuclear button. being in charge of the nuclear button. being in charge of the nuclear button. Like that's humanity writ large in in in Like that's humanity writ large in in in Like that's humanity writ large in in in an alarming sense. Like we need an alarming sense. Like we need an alarming sense. Like we need something better than us to be something better than us to be something better than us to be [laughter] in charge of that uh really. [laughter] in charge of that uh really. [laughter] in charge of that uh really. >> And trained for sycophancy. >> And trained for sycophancy. >> And trained for sycophancy. Trained to tell you what you want to Trained to tell you what you want to Trained to tell you what you want to hear. hear. hear. As well. And to do it in a manner that As well. And to do it in a manner that As well. And to do it in a manner that would be maximally pleasing to you. would be maximally pleasing to you. would be maximally pleasing to you. >> Uh yes, or even beyond that that would >> Uh yes, or even beyond that that would >> Uh yes, or even beyond that that would be maximally profitable for the AI be maximally profitable for the AI be maximally profitable for the AI corporation.

corporation. corporation. >> Ultimately that's what's behind it, no >> Ultimately that's what's behind it, no >> Ultimately that's what's behind it, no doubt. doubt. doubt. >> keep you prompting more and more and >> keep you prompting more and more and >> keep you prompting more and more and more. And the way to do that is to make more. And the way to do that is to make more. And the way to do that is to make you think that you're wonderful. you think that you're wonderful. you think that you're wonderful. Cuz we all love to hear that, don't we? Cuz we all love to hear that, don't we? Cuz we all love to hear that, don't we? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> We do. And then and then the book of >> We do. And then and then the book of >> We do. And then and then the book of Genesis crashes us right back to Genesis crashes us right back to Genesis crashes us right back to reality. And when we ponder our reality. And when we ponder our reality. And when we ponder our idol-making hearts. idol-making hearts. idol-making hearts. >> But what a healthy reality it is. Like >> But what a healthy reality it is. Like >> But what a healthy reality it is. Like it's it's it's it is like Road Runner, isn't it? That it is like Road Runner, isn't it? That it is like Road Runner, isn't it? That this sort of the way that AI puffs us this sort of the way that AI puffs us this sort of the way that AI puffs us up. Like we've we've we've gone off the up. Like we've we've we've gone off the up. Like we've we've we've gone off the edge of the cliff. We're still running. edge of the cliff. We're still running. edge of the cliff. We're still running. We sort of know We sort of know We sort of know if we let ourselves think about it, that if we let ourselves think about it, that if we let ourselves think about it, that we're we're not as good as AI is making we're we're not as good as AI is making we're we're not as good as AI is making us think. You know, that is a wonderful us think. You know, that is a wonderful us think. You know, that is a wonderful question, Chris. How wise and insightful question, Chris. How wise and insightful question, Chris. How wise and insightful of you to ask me that. Um of you to ask me that. Um of you to ask me that. Um And And And but we keep going hoping that we won't, but we keep going hoping that we won't, but we keep going hoping that we won't, you know, plummet into the canyon you know, plummet into the canyon you know, plummet into the canyon beneath us like Wile E. Coyote did. I beneath us like Wile E. Coyote did. I beneath us like Wile E. Coyote did. I remember once um I was very sort of my remember once um I was very sort of my remember once um I was very sort of my my bubble was burst with in that when AI my bubble was burst with in that when AI my bubble was burst with in that when AI started becoming quite sycophantic, you started becoming quite sycophantic, you started becoming quite sycophantic, you sort of you know it's being sycophantic, sort of you know it's being sycophantic, sort of you know it's being sycophantic, but you quite like it, don't you? You but you quite like it, don't you? You but you quite like it, don't you? You know, oh Chris, that's so wise. Well, know, oh Chris, that's so wise. Well, know, oh Chris, that's so wise. Well, yes, it is. Thank you so much. And then yes, it is. Thank you so much. And then yes, it is. Thank you so much. And then I I was looking over someone else's I I was looking over someone else's I I was looking over someone else's shoulder who was using AI. And it told shoulder who was using AI. And it told shoulder who was using AI. And it told them they were so wise. I was like, them they were so wise. I was like, them they were so wise. I was like, what? No. Come on. That's what you said what? No. Come on. That's what you said what? No. Come on. That's what you said to me. And then he just brought it home.

to me. And then he just brought it home. to me. And then he just brought it home. No. That's what it says to everybody. No. That's what it says to everybody. No. That's what it says to everybody. So, oh, okay. So, oh, okay. So, oh, okay. It was just a really healthy moment for It was just a really healthy moment for It was just a really healthy moment for me. me. me. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Well, I say this all the time, Chris, >> Well, I say this all the time, Chris, >> Well, I say this all the time, Chris, but that is the end of the movie Her, but that is the end of the movie Her, but that is the end of the movie Her, starring Scarlett Johansson and Joaquin starring Scarlett Johansson and Joaquin starring Scarlett Johansson and Joaquin Phoenix. The very end is the sycophantic Phoenix. The very end is the sycophantic Phoenix. The very end is the sycophantic AI Scarlett Johansson in Joaquin AI Scarlett Johansson in Joaquin AI Scarlett Johansson in Joaquin Phoenix's ear. Phoenix's ear. Phoenix's ear. And the bursting of the bubble was when And the bursting of the bubble was when And the bursting of the bubble was when he discovers she does not have a he discovers she does not have a he discovers she does not have a relationship of mutuality with him. relationship of mutuality with him. relationship of mutuality with him. Merely a reciprocal relationship. It's Merely a reciprocal relationship. It's Merely a reciprocal relationship. It's not real. not real. not real. It's fake. He feels like it's It's fake. He feels like it's It's fake. He feels like it's reciprocal, but it's not. It's not. Or reciprocal, but it's not. It's not. Or reciprocal, but it's not. It's not. Or feels like it's mutual, but he doesn't feels like it's mutual, but he doesn't feels like it's mutual, but he doesn't realize that. So, and then of course realize that. So, and then of course realize that. So, and then of course what does it lead us to in the end of what does it lead us to in the end of what does it lead us to in the end of leads to confront what is what is leads to confront what is what is leads to confront what is what is humanity. What makes us unique in our humanity. What makes us unique in our humanity. What makes us unique in our including in our friction. including in our friction. including in our friction. That's why I was almost go back to that That's why I was almost go back to that That's why I was almost go back to that movie all the time. Go ahead. movie all the time. Go ahead. movie all the time. Go ahead. >> And now I just And Alan Turing was >> And now I just And Alan Turing was >> And now I just And Alan Turing was right, wasn't he? In his famous paper.

right, wasn't he? In his famous paper. right, wasn't he? In his famous paper. Like it is the Imitation Game. Like it is the Imitation Game. Like it is the Imitation Game. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, right. >> Yeah, right. >> And AI is just a a phenomenal imitator. >> And AI is just a a phenomenal imitator. >> And AI is just a a phenomenal imitator. And it's the moment that we forget that And it's the moment that we forget that And it's the moment that we forget that it's imitating and think that it's it's imitating and think that it's it's imitating and think that it's participating participating participating uh that we open the door uh that we open the door uh that we open the door uh to all sorts of problems. uh to all sorts of problems. uh to all sorts of problems. >> Well, Chris, it's always a treat. Always >> Well, Chris, it's always a treat. Always >> Well, Chris, it's always a treat. Always a a pleasure. I'm not just saying that a a pleasure. I'm not just saying that a a pleasure. I'm not just saying that sycophantically or just reciprocally. sycophantically or just reciprocally. sycophantically or just reciprocally. >> [laughter] >> It is wonderful. So much wisdom in this >> It is wonderful. So much wisdom in this conversation. conversation. conversation. >> Keep going. Keep going. >> Keep going. Keep going. >> Keep going. Keep going. >> Thoughtful question. I know it's you >> Thoughtful question. I know it's you >> Thoughtful question. I know it's you never bothered to say that to me when never bothered to say that to me when never bothered to say that to me when I'm asking the questions, but whatever. I'm asking the questions, but whatever. I'm asking the questions, but whatever. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh the new Check out the new singles. >> Uh the new Check out the new singles. >> Uh the new Check out the new singles. >> feel doubly bad. >> feel doubly bad. >> feel doubly bad. >> No, it's what showed me it was real, >> No, it's what showed me it was real, >> No, it's what showed me it was real, Chris. Um check out this new single Chris. Um check out this new single Chris. Um check out this new single season TGC podcast Silicon Spirituality season TGC podcast Silicon Spirituality season TGC podcast Silicon Spirituality Chris Watkin with many many wonderful Chris Watkin with many many wonderful Chris Watkin with many many wonderful guests including some of the guests including some of the guests including some of the contributors you've heard of Rachel contributors you've heard of Rachel contributors you've heard of Rachel [music] Gibson in here to our book The [music] Gibson in here to our book The [music] Gibson in here to our book The AI Apocalypse Survival Guide for AI Apocalypse Survival Guide for AI Apocalypse Survival Guide for humanity. Chris, again, appreciate you humanity. Chris, again, appreciate you humanity. Chris, again, appreciate you you taking the time and for doing this you taking the time and for doing this you taking the time and for doing this deep dive and [music] teaching us so deep dive and [music] teaching us so deep dive and [music] teaching us so much. Thank you.

much. Thank you. much. Thank you. >> Thank you, Collin. You have a wonderful >> Thank you, Collin. You have a wonderful >> Thank you, Collin. You have a wonderful question. question. question. >> [music] >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. tgc.org/gospelbound. tgc.org/gospelbound. [music] [music] [music] Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.