A Biblical Response to Transgender Theory

if they're familiar with uh the whole if they're familiar with uh the whole avatar phenomenon and being able [music] avatar phenomenon and being able [music] avatar phenomenon and being able [music] to as it were reinvent themselves online to as it were reinvent themselves online to as it were reinvent themselves online and here comes trans theory saying well and here comes trans theory saying well and here comes trans theory saying well the reason you're uncomfortable is the reason you're uncomfortable is the reason you're uncomfortable is because you're trans and [music] you because you're trans and [music] you because you're trans and [music] you just need to you just need a new avatar just need to you just need a new avatar just need to you just need a new avatar and this is the way to do it to start and this is the way to do it to start and this is the way to do it to start taking testosterone or whatever. It's taking testosterone or whatever. It's taking testosterone or whatever. It's this [music] perfect storm. If gender is constructed, it can be If gender is constructed, it can be deconstructed. deconstructed. deconstructed. Think about it. If we built it, then we Think about it. If we built it, then we Think about it. If we built it, then we can tear it down. And now you know why can tear it down. And now you know why can tear it down. And now you know why some activists have been so determined some activists have been so determined some activists have been so determined to convince us that gender is something to convince us that gender is something to convince us that gender is something we assign rather than something we we assign rather than something we we assign rather than something we receive. If we assign it, then we can receive. If we assign it, then we can receive. If we assign it, then we can reassign it as we wish. We don't receive reassign it as we wish. We don't receive reassign it as we wish. We don't receive our bodies, we can remake our bodies. our bodies, we can remake our bodies. our bodies, we can remake our bodies. No doubt you've observed the rise of No doubt you've observed the rise of No doubt you've observed the rise of transgender theory in Western culture. transgender theory in Western culture. transgender theory in Western culture. It's the denial that the sexed body It's the denial that the sexed body It's the denial that the sexed body reveals and determines the gendered to reveals and determines the gendered to reveals and determines the gendered to self. That's the helpful summary we find self. That's the helpful summary we find self. That's the helpful summary we find in the excellent new book, The Body God in the excellent new book, The Body God in the excellent new book, The Body God Gives, a biblical response to Gives, a biblical response to Gives, a biblical response to transgender theory, written by Robert transgender theory, written by Robert transgender theory, written by Robert Smith. Smith is an ordained Anglican Smith. Smith is an ordained Anglican Smith. Smith is an ordained Anglican minister and lecturer in theology, minister and lecturer in theology, minister and lecturer in theology, Ethics, and Music Ministry at Sydney Ethics, and Music Ministry at Sydney Ethics, and Music Ministry at Sydney Missionary and Bible College in Missionary and Bible College in Missionary and Bible College in Australia. He's written two previous Australia. He's written two previous Australia. He's written two previous books on gender and identity. This new books on gender and identity. This new books on gender and identity. This new book by Lexom, now Baker, gives you a book by Lexom, now Baker, gives you a book by Lexom, now Baker, gives you a little bit of everything. He breaks down

little bit of everything. He breaks down little bit of everything. He breaks down the arguments of gender theorists. He the arguments of gender theorists. He the arguments of gender theorists. He guides readers on a who's who of guides readers on a who's who of guides readers on a who's who of philosophers who built the intellectual philosophers who built the intellectual philosophers who built the intellectual foundations of the secular west from foundations of the secular west from foundations of the secular west from Decart to Rouso, Kant to Marx, Decart to Rouso, Kant to Marx, Decart to Rouso, Kant to Marx, Vickenstein, Freud, Sartra, Derida, FCO. Vickenstein, Freud, Sartra, Derida, FCO. Vickenstein, Freud, Sartra, Derida, FCO. There you go. The whole the whole crew. There you go. The whole the whole crew. There you go. The whole the whole crew. And he concludes with biblical And he concludes with biblical And he concludes with biblical argumentation to show us, nobody is born argumentation to show us, nobody is born argumentation to show us, nobody is born in the wrong body. He writes, quote, in the wrong body. He writes, quote, in the wrong body. He writes, quote, "God's desire for my gender is revealed "God's desire for my gender is revealed "God's desire for my gender is revealed by the design of my body." And I by the design of my body." And I by the design of my body." And I appreciate how Rob harmonizes the appreciate how Rob harmonizes the appreciate how Rob harmonizes the biblical story from Genesis to biblical story from Genesis to biblical story from Genesis to Revelation. Quote, "Our present task is Revelation. Quote, "Our present task is Revelation. Quote, "Our present task is to work with the grain of creation to work with the grain of creation to work with the grain of creation toward the goal of new creation." toward the goal of new creation." toward the goal of new creation." Rob joins me now on Gospel Bound to talk Rob joins me now on Gospel Bound to talk Rob joins me now on Gospel Bound to talk transgender theory, how it spread, why transgender theory, how it spread, why transgender theory, how it spread, why it's peaked, and where evangelicals need it's peaked, and where evangelicals need it's peaked, and where evangelicals need to go next. Rob, thank you for joining to go next. Rob, thank you for joining to go next. Rob, thank you for joining me on Gospel Bound. me on Gospel Bound. me on Gospel Bound. >> It's great to be with you, Colin. >> It's great to be with you, Colin. >> It's great to be with you, Colin. >> You have devoted an enormous amount of >> You have devoted an enormous amount of >> You have devoted an enormous amount of time to researching and writing about time to researching and writing about time to researching and writing about transgender theory. Why? Well, it's a transgender theory. Why? Well, it's a transgender theory. Why? Well, it's a good question to start with, I think, good question to start with, I think, good question to start with, I think, because it was about 2014 when I was uh because it was about 2014 when I was uh because it was about 2014 when I was uh doing some work on human sexuality more doing some work on human sexuality more doing some work on human sexuality more broadly that I became aware of the broadly that I became aware of the broadly that I became aware of the significance of the transgender uh significance of the transgender uh significance of the transgender uh challenge and the questions that uh the challenge and the questions that uh the challenge and the questions that uh the phenomenon was raising and uh well just phenomenon was raising and uh well just phenomenon was raising and uh well just the emerging um the emerging um the emerging um uh significance of of the whole the uh significance of of the whole the uh significance of of the whole the whole movement. So I think you I think whole movement. So I think you I think whole movement. So I think you I think Time magazine in February 2014 had this

Time magazine in February 2014 had this Time magazine in February 2014 had this uh cover story called the transgender uh cover story called the transgender uh cover story called the transgender tipping point. I remember reading that tipping point. I remember reading that tipping point. I remember reading that article very early in my um article very early in my um article very early in my um [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] research. Uh and so I became convinced research. Uh and so I became convinced research. Uh and so I became convinced fairly quickly that somebody needed to fairly quickly that somebody needed to fairly quickly that somebody needed to be working on this and as far as I could be working on this and as far as I could be working on this and as far as I could see there weren't many evangelicals who see there weren't many evangelicals who see there weren't many evangelicals who were um putting their sort of hand to were um putting their sort of hand to were um putting their sort of hand to the plow. Um so I started gathering the plow. Um so I started gathering the plow. Um so I started gathering materials and making bibliographies and materials and making bibliographies and materials and making bibliographies and writing notes and thinking now who do I writing notes and thinking now who do I writing notes and thinking now who do I who do I give this to? Uh who who do I who do I give this to? Uh who who do I who do I give this to? Uh who who do I pass all this uh preliminary research pass all this uh preliminary research pass all this uh preliminary research onto? And uh after a while I became uh onto? And uh after a while I became uh onto? And uh after a while I became uh well convinced that the Lord wanted me well convinced that the Lord wanted me well convinced that the Lord wanted me to keep going with it. And um then to keep going with it. And um then to keep going with it. And um then simultaneously to that um within our simultaneously to that um within our simultaneously to that um within our wider family we had these some these wider family we had these some these wider family we had these some these issues um uh come to us in a very issues um uh come to us in a very issues um uh come to us in a very personal way. And uh so that brought the personal way. And uh so that brought the personal way. And uh so that brought the what you might say the intellectual and what you might say the intellectual and what you might say the intellectual and the uh the pastoral together. the uh the pastoral together. the uh the pastoral together. >> Yeah. Um so this was no longer a >> Yeah. Um so this was no longer a >> Yeah. Um so this was no longer a theoretical exercise of just trying to theoretical exercise of just trying to theoretical exercise of just trying to wrestle with ideas. Uh but be became wrestle with ideas. Uh but be became wrestle with ideas. Uh but be became very much a um very much a um very much a um [clears throat and snorts] um well just [clears throat and snorts] um well just [clears throat and snorts] um well just a personal pastoral exercise of how how a personal pastoral exercise of how how a personal pastoral exercise of how how do we love people? Um so that's been um do we love people? Um so that's been um do we love people? Um so that's been um part of my journey as well bringing part of my journey as well bringing part of my journey as well bringing together the well the transgender theory together the well the transgender theory together the well the transgender theory with what some would call transgender with what some would call transgender with what some would call transgender experience and uh seeing how to you know experience and uh seeing how to you know experience and uh seeing how to you know how do we make sense of all that. Now how do we make sense of all that. Now how do we make sense of all that. Now you you mentioned already that Time you you mentioned already that Time you you mentioned already that Time magazine cover story, the transgender

magazine cover story, the transgender magazine cover story, the transgender tipping point. You identify that as the tipping point. You identify that as the tipping point. You identify that as the end of 2013. end of 2013. end of 2013. What was it that made that period of What was it that made that period of What was it that made that period of time that transgender tipping point in time that transgender tipping point in time that transgender tipping point in Western society? Western society? Western society? >> Yeah, look, I think a number of things >> Yeah, look, I think a number of things >> Yeah, look, I think a number of things um I mean again just the promotion of um I mean again just the promotion of um I mean again just the promotion of transgender celebrities as as that cover transgender celebrities as as that cover transgender celebrities as as that cover itself revealed was part of it. Um there itself revealed was part of it. Um there itself revealed was part of it. Um there was also changes in the uh the DSM5 was also changes in the uh the DSM5 was also changes in the uh the DSM5 uh the diagnostic and statistical manual uh the diagnostic and statistical manual uh the diagnostic and statistical manual of mental disorders and um so there were of mental disorders and um so there were of mental disorders and um so there were there were even diagnostic shifts and there were even diagnostic shifts and there were even diagnostic shifts and intellectual shifts. Um intellectual shifts. Um intellectual shifts. Um um yeah look a range of social and um yeah look a range of social and um yeah look a range of social and intellectual factors came together. Gay intellectual factors came together. Gay intellectual factors came together. Gay marriage was uh um well hadn't quite marriage was uh um well hadn't quite marriage was uh um well hadn't quite come in yet in the US or the uh or come in yet in the US or the uh or come in yet in the US or the uh or Australia even. Um but um many who many Australia even. Um but um many who many Australia even. Um but um many who many of the gay activists I think were of the gay activists I think were of the gay activists I think were looking for the next um what you might looking for the next um what you might looking for the next um what you might say the LGBT activists were looking for say the LGBT activists were looking for say the LGBT activists were looking for the next um cause to promote and next as the next um cause to promote and next as the next um cause to promote and next as some sort civil rights victory to some sort civil rights victory to some sort civil rights victory to achieve. So you know these things I achieve. So you know these things I achieve. So you know these things I think came together. Uh and of course think came together. Uh and of course think came together. Uh and of course well social media um plays a huge part well social media um plays a huge part well social media um plays a huge part in this um as these identities begin to in this um as these identities begin to in this um as these identities begin to spread through different uh platforms spread through different uh platforms spread through different uh platforms and um YouTube influences and and um YouTube influences and and um YouTube influences and other sources like that start to not other sources like that start to not other sources like that start to not only teach the ideas but model uh model

only teach the ideas but model uh model only teach the ideas but model uh model these changes. Rob, to whom would you these changes. Rob, to whom would you these changes. Rob, to whom would you compare the influence on our culture of compare the influence on our culture of compare the influence on our culture of Judith Butler? And I'm wondering also Judith Butler? And I'm wondering also Judith Butler? And I'm wondering also more influence from Butler than Fako. more influence from Butler than Fako. more influence from Butler than Fako. How would you describe that? How would you describe that? How would you describe that? >> Well, I think [laughter] >> Well, I think [laughter] >> Well, I think [laughter] I mean many people have not even heard I mean many people have not even heard I mean many people have not even heard of Judith Butler, let alone read a word of Judith Butler, let alone read a word of Judith Butler, let alone read a word of her work and her work's not easy to of her work and her work's not easy to of her work and her work's not easy to read, read, read, >> but they can probably recite many things >> but they can probably recite many things >> but they can probably recite many things that she taught. they can um even though that she taught. they can um even though that she taught. they can um even though her views have shifted and changed and her views have shifted and changed and her views have shifted and changed and evolved and um so I do think her evolved and um so I do think her evolved and um so I do think her influence has been profound. She is a a influence has been profound. She is a a influence has been profound. She is a a classic example of um the the meme that classic example of um the the meme that classic example of um the the meme that ideas have consequences because ideas have consequences because ideas have consequences because certainly the ideas that she was playing certainly the ideas that she was playing certainly the ideas that she was playing with back in the early '9s and um with back in the early '9s and um with back in the early '9s and um promoting through her various writings promoting through her various writings promoting through her various writings have trickled through um academia into have trickled through um academia into have trickled through um academia into well into education in and into schools well into education in and into schools well into education in and into schools into children into business into into children into business into into children into business into government into all kinds of government into all kinds of government into all kinds of institutions. So the fundamental idea institutions. So the fundamental idea institutions. So the fundamental idea that sex is as she puts it radically that sex is as she puts it radically that sex is as she puts it radically independent of gender independent of gender independent of gender um that idea is uh been a very very um that idea is uh been a very very um that idea is uh been a very very powerful one and destructive one. Um so powerful one and destructive one. Um so powerful one and destructive one. Um so yeah look in some ways she she fired a yeah look in some ways she she fired a yeah look in some ways she she fired a torpedo unlike anybody else torpedo unlike anybody else torpedo unlike anybody else but again she didn't come out of but again she didn't come out of but again she didn't come out of nowhere. she was building on um the work nowhere. she was building on um the work nowhere. she was building on um the work of secondwave feminists who were

of secondwave feminists who were of secondwave feminists who were themselves building on the work of uh themselves building on the work of uh themselves building on the work of uh existentialists even going back to existentialists even going back to existentialists even going back to nature and others and nature and others and nature and others and so yeah there are lots of antecedants so yeah there are lots of antecedants so yeah there are lots of antecedants for her work and and I've in at least in for her work and and I've in at least in for her work and and I've in at least in my research and and writing I I've my research and and writing I I've my research and and writing I I've distinguished distinguished distinguished the kind of queer approach of Judith the kind of queer approach of Judith the kind of queer approach of Judith Butler with the what I've called trans Butler with the what I've called trans Butler with the what I've called trans theory as opposed to queer theory. um uh theory as opposed to queer theory. um uh theory as opposed to queer theory. um uh in that they do sort of part ways at in that they do sort of part ways at in that they do sort of part ways at certain key points which I'm happy to go certain key points which I'm happy to go certain key points which I'm happy to go into if that's uh if that's somewhere into if that's uh if that's somewhere into if that's uh if that's somewhere you want to go. Well, let me first you want to go. Well, let me first you want to go. Well, let me first before we come back to the differences before we come back to the differences before we come back to the differences between queer and trans theory, I do between queer and trans theory, I do between queer and trans theory, I do want to where does what does Fuko come want to where does what does Fuko come want to where does what does Fuko come in here and and because again felt like in here and and because again felt like in here and and because again felt like as I'm going through the book, it seems as I'm going through the book, it seems as I'm going through the book, it seems that in one sense you mentioned the that in one sense you mentioned the that in one sense you mentioned the antecedent. So there's always something antecedent. So there's always something antecedent. So there's always something underneath. It doesn't come out of underneath. It doesn't come out of underneath. It doesn't come out of nowhere. But in terms of two of the nowhere. But in terms of two of the nowhere. But in terms of two of the leading intellectual figures that I mean leading intellectual figures that I mean leading intellectual figures that I mean probably most of us don't know how to probably most of us don't know how to probably most of us don't know how to pronounce if you if we saw Fuko written pronounce if you if we saw Fuko written pronounce if you if we saw Fuko written we wouldn't know. And yet somehow a lot we wouldn't know. And yet somehow a lot we wouldn't know. And yet somehow a lot of what we think about the world is from of what we think about the world is from of what we think about the world is from those two people.

those two people. those two people. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well Fuko again is often his >> Yeah. Yeah. Well Fuko again is often his >> Yeah. Yeah. Well Fuko again is often his name's often associated with name's often associated with name's often associated with postmodernism although he himself didn't postmodernism although he himself didn't postmodernism although he himself didn't like that term. Um but he is a great like that term. Um but he is a great like that term. Um but he is a great disruptor. um he is challenging um disruptor. um he is challenging um disruptor. um he is challenging um traditional categories, traditional way traditional categories, traditional way traditional categories, traditional way of thinkings, thinking um of thinkings, thinking um of thinkings, thinking um he he is I mean he was quite brilliant I he he is I mean he was quite brilliant I he he is I mean he was quite brilliant I think as well as quite perverse um but think as well as quite perverse um but think as well as quite perverse um but uh yeah anyone who's read any of Fuko's uh yeah anyone who's read any of Fuko's uh yeah anyone who's read any of Fuko's books realize you're dealing with a a books realize you're dealing with a a books realize you're dealing with a a very um potent mind here um and very um potent mind here um and very um potent mind here um and certainly Butler is reading Fuko. certainly Butler is reading Fuko. certainly Butler is reading Fuko. There's no question about that as and There's no question about that as and There's no question about that as and she's reading deridedar and she's she's reading deridedar and she's she's reading deridedar and she's reading all of these. She's very very reading all of these. She's very very reading all of these. She's very very much across the the philosophical much across the the philosophical much across the the philosophical tradition and particularly the tradition and particularly the tradition and particularly the postmoderns as we often clump them postmoderns as we often clump them postmoderns as we often clump them together. So we we don't realize how together. So we we don't realize how together. So we we don't realize how much we we are living in Fuko's world or much we we are living in Fuko's world or much we we are living in Fuko's world or Butler's world. Um but that's the fact Butler's world. Um but that's the fact Butler's world. Um but that's the fact of it. Um now again his contributions of it. Um now again his contributions of it. Um now again his contributions are interesting and and varied. Um, and are interesting and and varied. Um, and are interesting and and varied. Um, and in one sense they don't go straight.

in one sense they don't go straight. in one sense they don't go straight. There's no straight line from Fukcoin to There's no straight line from Fukcoin to There's no straight line from Fukcoin to trans theory. Uh, but I think you can trans theory. Uh, but I think you can trans theory. Uh, but I think you can trace the line through Butler. Um, trace the line through Butler. Um, trace the line through Butler. Um, so yeah, there's some general thoughts so yeah, there's some general thoughts so yeah, there's some general thoughts about that. But about that. But about that. But >> well, so often we >> well, so often we >> well, so often we don't understand our culture because we don't understand our culture because we don't understand our culture because we can't experience what a certain what an can't experience what a certain what an can't experience what a certain what an earlier generation did. So we simply earlier generation did. So we simply earlier generation did. So we simply don't know what's different. We might don't know what's different. We might don't know what's different. We might hear something and we don't know if it's hear something and we don't know if it's hear something and we don't know if it's brand new or if people came up with it brand new or if people came up with it brand new or if people came up with it last week or if it was something that last week or if it was something that last week or if it was something that has always been there before. We're just has always been there before. We're just has always been there before. We're just gonna cut off gonna cut off gonna cut off >> um especially in the way that these very >> um especially in the way that these very >> um especially in the way that these very intellectual trends have produced that intellectual trends have produced that intellectual trends have produced that outcome of cutting us off from received outcome of cutting us off from received outcome of cutting us off from received and inherited wisdom and tradition. So, and inherited wisdom and tradition. So, and inherited wisdom and tradition. So, I just think it's important in in a book I just think it's important in in a book I just think it's important in in a book like yours like yours like yours um to be able to for people to identify, um to be able to for people to identify, um to be able to for people to identify, you know what, that thing that you just you know what, that thing that you just you know what, that thing that you just assumed to be the case actually came assumed to be the case actually came assumed to be the case actually came from this person with this lineage in from this person with this lineage in from this person with this lineage in this year and these are the reasons why this year and these are the reasons why this year and these are the reasons why it doesn't really make sense even on its it doesn't really make sense even on its it doesn't really make sense even on its own terms or there are inherent own terms or there are inherent own terms or there are inherent contradictions within the very system.

contradictions within the very system. contradictions within the very system. So, let's jump there then, Rob, to the So, let's jump there then, Rob, to the So, let's jump there then, Rob, to the inherent contradictions between queer inherent contradictions between queer inherent contradictions between queer theory and trans theory, which I don't theory and trans theory, which I don't theory and trans theory, which I don't imagine a lot of people would even know imagine a lot of people would even know imagine a lot of people would even know that those are different from each that those are different from each that those are different from each other. other. other. >> No, I think often they get uh sort of >> No, I think often they get uh sort of >> No, I think often they get uh sort of mushed together because of the LGBTQ mushed together because of the LGBTQ mushed together because of the LGBTQ uh and we we assume that's a happy uh and we we assume that's a happy uh and we we assume that's a happy family, which of of course it it isn't family, which of of course it it isn't family, which of of course it it isn't at all. Uh there's now even an LGBT at all. Uh there's now even an LGBT at all. Uh there's now even an LGBT alliance that's kind of ganged up alliance that's kind of ganged up alliance that's kind of ganged up against the tea. So again in in against the tea. So again in in against the tea. So again in in traditional sort of Aristotilian traditional sort of Aristotilian traditional sort of Aristotilian um thought your essence precedes your um thought your essence precedes your um thought your essence precedes your existence. existence. existence. So you have a given essence. Now we as So you have a given essence. Now we as So you have a given essence. Now we as Christians would say yes from God but of Christians would say yes from God but of Christians would say yes from God but of course naturalists might say we have a course naturalists might say we have a course naturalists might say we have a given essence from from evolution or given essence from from evolution or given essence from from evolution or something else but um we either way we something else but um we either way we something else but um we either way we have a given essence and our business is have a given essence and our business is have a given essence and our business is to live that out and we um you know we to live that out and we um you know we to live that out and we um you know we as it were we flourish best when we live as it were we flourish best when we live as it were we flourish best when we live out our given essence. Now the out our given essence. Now the out our given essence. Now the existentialists flip that around. You existentialists flip that around. You existentialists flip that around. You know Satra's uh famous motto that that know Satra's uh famous motto that that know Satra's uh famous motto that that existence precedes essence um that we existence precedes essence um that we existence precedes essence um that we just simply uh to use H highig's just simply uh to use H highig's just simply uh to use H highig's language are thrown into the world and language are thrown into the world and language are thrown into the world and exist and as we well make our free exist and as we well make our free exist and as we well make our free decisions we as it were craft an decisions we as it were craft an decisions we as it were craft an essence. Now queer theory comes along essence. Now queer theory comes along essence. Now queer theory comes along and says well actually you don't even and says well actually you don't even and says well actually you don't even ever get to creating an essence. M ever get to creating an essence. M ever get to creating an essence. M >> all you are is an identity without an >> all you are is an identity without an >> all you are is an identity without an essence.

essence. essence. >> Um that's David Halpern's famous um >> Um that's David Halpern's famous um >> Um that's David Halpern's famous um expression ident that sums up queer for expression ident that sums up queer for expression ident that sums up queer for him, identity without an essence. Um and him, identity without an essence. Um and him, identity without an essence. Um and so for Judith Butler when she comes so for Judith Butler when she comes so for Judith Butler when she comes along and says well um sex and gender along and says well um sex and gender along and says well um sex and gender are radically independent. are radically independent. are radically independent. Uh and that uh if you ask her what Uh and that uh if you ask her what Uh and that uh if you ask her what determines your gender then if it's not determines your gender then if it's not determines your gender then if it's not your sex uh you know she would say well your sex uh you know she would say well your sex uh you know she would say well you just you perform a gender uh you're you just you perform a gender uh you're you just you perform a gender uh you're an identity without an essence. So you an identity without an essence. So you an identity without an essence. So you just you you know inherit some different just you you know inherit some different just you you know inherit some different types of performances but you might want types of performances but you might want types of performances but you might want to riff on those and and play around to riff on those and and play around to riff on those and and play around with those. We we we're gender is with those. We we we're gender is with those. We we we're gender is performative in that sense. performative in that sense. performative in that sense. Um now trans theory differs there uh and Um now trans theory differs there uh and Um now trans theory differs there uh and says no no no no your your gender is says no no no no your your gender is says no no no no your your gender is determined actually by your inner gender determined actually by your inner gender determined actually by your inner gender identity identity identity uh that is that is in fact your essence. uh that is that is in fact your essence. uh that is that is in fact your essence. So trans theory in that sense is So trans theory in that sense is So trans theory in that sense is essentialist as opposed to queer theory.

essentialist as opposed to queer theory. essentialist as opposed to queer theory. Uh and saying no, you have an inner Uh and saying no, you have an inner Uh and saying no, you have an inner gender essence which only you know uh gender essence which only you know uh gender essence which only you know uh and it may or may not happen to align and it may or may not happen to align and it may or may not happen to align with your body. Uh and there's no reason with your body. Uh and there's no reason with your body. Uh and there's no reason why it should align with your body. why it should align with your body. why it should align with your body. Hence Kira queer theory. Um and if it Hence Kira queer theory. Um and if it Hence Kira queer theory. Um and if it doesn't align, you're transgender. If it doesn't align, you're transgender. If it doesn't align, you're transgender. If it does align, you're cisgender. Um but if does align, you're cisgender. Um but if does align, you're cisgender. Um but if it doesn't align and you want to bring it doesn't align and you want to bring it doesn't align and you want to bring your body into line with it, your body into line with it, your body into line with it, >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> uh then feel free uh do that. Make the >> uh then feel free uh do that. Make the >> uh then feel free uh do that. Make the bodily changes you think are necessary bodily changes you think are necessary bodily changes you think are necessary and um and many would want people, you and um and many would want people, you and um and many would want people, you know, the public to pay for that uh in know, the public to pay for that uh in know, the public to pay for that uh in some way. some way. some way. But then you have uh as I've um uh sort But then you have uh as I've um uh sort But then you have uh as I've um uh sort of disambiguated in the book, I suppose of disambiguated in the book, I suppose of disambiguated in the book, I suppose a development of what you might call a development of what you might call a development of what you might call traditional trans theory. I call it soft traditional trans theory. I call it soft traditional trans theory. I call it soft trans theory in the trans theory in the trans theory in the >> in [clears throat] the book. >> in [clears throat] the book. >> in [clears throat] the book. >> But the traditional trans theory >> But the traditional trans theory >> But the traditional trans theory effectively says, okay, your body has a effectively says, okay, your body has a effectively says, okay, your body has a sex, but your gender identity is the sex, but your gender identity is the sex, but your gender identity is the real you. real you. real you. >> Whereas the more radical form of trans >> Whereas the more radical form of trans >> Whereas the more radical form of trans theory says, no, your gender identity theory says, no, your gender identity theory says, no, your gender identity actually defines you completely. It actually defines you completely. It actually defines you completely. It reclassifies your body. So if my gender reclassifies your body. So if my gender reclassifies your body. So if my gender identity is female, uh then this body identity is female, uh then this body identity is female, uh then this body becomes a female body. Uh I don't have becomes a female body. Uh I don't have becomes a female body. Uh I don't have to do anything at all to it. I don't to do anything at all to it. I don't to do anything at all to it. I don't have to even change my clothes, my hair, have to even change my clothes, my hair, have to even change my clothes, my hair, or my name, let alone have hormones or or my name, let alone have hormones or or my name, let alone have hormones or surgeries. I am now a woman in every surgeries. I am now a woman in every surgeries. I am now a woman in every sense. And I should be able to play on sense. And I should be able to play on sense. And I should be able to play on the female sports team or if I'm if I the female sports team or if I'm if I the female sports team or if I'm if I commit a crime, um I should go to a commit a crime, um I should go to a commit a crime, um I should go to a female prison. And uh so that's the more

female prison. And uh so that's the more female prison. And uh so that's the more that that I've called that hard trans that that I've called that hard trans that that I've called that hard trans theory. Um but I guess it's the more theory. Um but I guess it's the more theory. Um but I guess it's the more radical radical radical um version, but both of those have a um version, but both of those have a um version, but both of those have a kind of inner gender essence at the kind of inner gender essence at the kind of inner gender essence at the heart which is not there in queer heart which is not there in queer heart which is not there in queer theory. theory. theory. So that's one one of the distinctions So that's one one of the distinctions So that's one one of the distinctions >> and just like you were describing the >> and just like you were describing the >> and just like you were describing the different philosophical origins. I think different philosophical origins. I think different philosophical origins. I think it's so important for people to it's so important for people to it's so important for people to understand the contradictions within understand the contradictions within understand the contradictions within that community because the projection of that community because the projection of that community because the projection of power is the unity. But the only thing power is the unity. But the only thing power is the unity. But the only thing that's unified is a rejection of that's unified is a rejection of that's unified is a rejection of historic and biblical sexual norms. historic and biblical sexual norms. historic and biblical sexual norms. There's no unifying principle within. There's no unifying principle within. There's no unifying principle within. And in fact, not only is there no And in fact, not only is there no And in fact, not only is there no unifying principle within, they're often unifying principle within, they're often unifying principle within, they're often directly contrary to each other. directly contrary to each other. directly contrary to each other. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and an open open warfare uh against >> Um and an open open warfare uh against >> Um and an open open warfare uh against each other. So even even that basic each other. So even even that basic each other. So even even that basic point is I don't think widely widely point is I don't think widely widely point is I don't think widely widely known or when people see a pride flag known or when people see a pride flag known or when people see a pride flag and then they see the then the trans and then they see the then the trans and then they see the then the trans parts are added in there they don't parts are added in there they don't parts are added in there they don't really understand the significance of really understand the significance of really understand the significance of what's of what's happened there or what's of what's happened there or what's of what's happened there or what's changed or the ongoing battles what's changed or the ongoing battles what's changed or the ongoing battles for control over a movement its for control over a movement its for control over a movement its directions its priorities its funding directions its priorities its funding directions its priorities its funding [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] its strategies.

its strategies. its strategies. And let let's then look back to how this And let let's then look back to how this And let let's then look back to how this has begun to unravel. During the time has begun to unravel. During the time has begun to unravel. During the time you spent research and writing, Rob, it you spent research and writing, Rob, it you spent research and writing, Rob, it seems that we've passed peak seems that we've passed peak seems that we've passed peak transgender. Still widespread influence, transgender. Still widespread influence, transgender. Still widespread influence, no doubt. But that influence is on the no doubt. But that influence is on the no doubt. But that influence is on the decline. Why did it decline? decline. Why did it decline? decline. Why did it decline? >> I mean, I I think that's right. Time >> I mean, I I think that's right. Time >> I mean, I I think that's right. Time will tell, but it to use the Second will tell, but it to use the Second will tell, but it to use the Second World War analogy, it's kind of like World War analogy, it's kind of like World War analogy, it's kind of like we're in between D-Day and and V-Day or we're in between D-Day and and V-Day or we're in between D-Day and and V-Day or VE Day. um VE Day. um VE Day. um >> the beginning of the end perhaps. >> the beginning of the end perhaps. >> the beginning of the end perhaps. >> That's right. The beginning of the end. >> That's right. The beginning of the end. >> That's right. The beginning of the end. >> Um why did the decline? Well, uh I think >> Um why did the decline? Well, uh I think >> Um why did the decline? Well, uh I think we've seen some of it in the public we've seen some of it in the public we've seen some of it in the public arena. um because the whole thing is uh arena. um because the whole thing is uh arena. um because the whole thing is uh unworkable unworkable unworkable um practically speaking and uh and so I um practically speaking and uh and so I um practically speaking and uh and so I so we've had public sort of uh push back so we've had public sort of uh push back so we've had public sort of uh push back against you know men taking all the against you know men taking all the against you know men taking all the prizes in women's sports or um you know prizes in women's sports or um you know prizes in women's sports or um you know male sex offenders being put in women's male sex offenders being put in women's male sex offenders being put in women's prison and surprise surprise reaffend prison and surprise surprise reaffend prison and surprise surprise reaffend um it just doesn't work socially even if um it just doesn't work socially even if um it just doesn't work socially even if somebody's got a nimble enough mind to somebody's got a nimble enough mind to somebody's got a nimble enough mind to somehow justify it to themselves somehow justify it to themselves somehow justify it to themselves intellectually. It just doesn't work on intellectually. It just doesn't work on intellectually. It just doesn't work on the ground. Uh it doesn't work the ground. Uh it doesn't work the ground. Uh it doesn't work medically. It you know it it's it's just medically. It you know it it's it's just medically. It you know it it's it's just Yeah. So the thing is riddled with um Yeah. So the thing is riddled with um Yeah. So the thing is riddled with um not just intellectual contradictions but not just intellectual contradictions but not just intellectual contradictions but just unworkability.

just unworkability. just unworkability. Um so that's partly I think why we're Um so that's partly I think why we're Um so that's partly I think why we're seeing that. But I mean again there have seeing that. But I mean again there have seeing that. But I mean again there have been some court cases and as I mentioned been some court cases and as I mentioned been some court cases and as I mentioned already some of the uh uh the at least already some of the uh uh the at least already some of the uh uh the at least the L L's and the G's have been pushing the L L's and the G's have been pushing the L L's and the G's have been pushing back against the T because now they talk back against the T because now they talk back against the T because now they talk about the whole tea movement as a way of about the whole tea movement as a way of about the whole tea movement as a way of transing away the gay. Um so they see it transing away the gay. Um so they see it transing away the gay. Um so they see it they certainly see child and adolescent they certainly see child and adolescent they certainly see child and adolescent gender transitioning as a form of gender transitioning as a form of gender transitioning as a form of conversion therapy. Um conversion therapy. Um conversion therapy. Um and so there's a major war there between and so there's a major war there between and so there's a major war there between uh at least LG and T um on that front. uh at least LG and T um on that front. uh at least LG and T um on that front. >> Yeah. Do you do you still commonly hear >> Yeah. Do you do you still commonly hear >> Yeah. Do you do you still commonly hear people argue that it would just really people argue that it would just really people argue that it would just really work if everybody who disagreed changed work if everybody who disagreed changed work if everybody who disagreed changed their minds or were even eliminated or their minds or were even eliminated or their minds or were even eliminated or removed from public discourse? Because removed from public discourse? Because removed from public discourse? Because part of what we talk about when we're part of what we talk about when we're part of what we talk about when we're saying unworkability saying unworkability saying unworkability is that mental health, suicide, all is that mental health, suicide, all is that mental health, suicide, all sorts of these really damaging outcomes sorts of these really damaging outcomes sorts of these really damaging outcomes in addition to the the hormone therapies in addition to the the hormone therapies in addition to the the hormone therapies and the treatments themselves um and the and the treatments themselves um and the and the treatments themselves um and the damage that they cause. But we're seeing damage that they cause. But we're seeing damage that they cause. But we're seeing these are not producing the outcomes these are not producing the outcomes these are not producing the outcomes that were always promised. This will that were always promised. This will that were always promised. This will bring this will bring happiness. This bring this will bring happiness. This bring this will bring happiness. This will bring fulfillment. This will bring will bring fulfillment. This will bring will bring fulfillment. This will bring wholeness to you.

wholeness to you. wholeness to you. I don't I've not seen any indication I don't I've not seen any indication I don't I've not seen any indication that that's actually happening. No that that's actually happening. No that that's actually happening. No surveys that have indicated that. In surveys that have indicated that. In surveys that have indicated that. In fact, it seems that the opposite is fact, it seems that the opposite is fact, it seems that the opposite is produced. Now, when we used to see that produced. Now, when we used to see that produced. Now, when we used to see that argument, it was well, that's because argument, it was well, that's because argument, it was well, that's because society doesn't accept this. society doesn't accept this. society doesn't accept this. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Is that is that still trotted out and >> Is that is that still trotted out and >> Is that is that still trotted out and and used against parents, used, you and used against parents, used, you and used against parents, used, you know, by schools, by counselors, and know, by schools, by counselors, and know, by schools, by counselors, and others to pressure parents into this others to pressure parents into this others to pressure parents into this affirmation process? affirmation process? affirmation process? >> Yes, occasionally. I mean those those >> Yes, occasionally. I mean those those >> Yes, occasionally. I mean those those um responses haven't haven't completely um responses haven't haven't completely um responses haven't haven't completely died off as as far as I'm aware. And died off as as far as I'm aware. And died off as as far as I'm aware. And likewise the suicidality myth um that likewise the suicidality myth um that likewise the suicidality myth um that you know if you don't allow your child you know if you don't allow your child you know if you don't allow your child to transition they're they're they're to transition they're they're they're to transition they're they're they're going to take their own life. Uh again going to take their own life. Uh again going to take their own life. Uh again that is just not borne out by the stats that is just not borne out by the stats that is just not borne out by the stats and the facts. and the facts. and the facts. In fact uh quite to the contrary it In fact uh quite to the contrary it In fact uh quite to the contrary it seems that people's mental health seems that people's mental health seems that people's mental health declines and their suicidality increases declines and their suicidality increases declines and their suicidality increases post transition. So, I think there's post transition. So, I think there's post transition. So, I think there's just more and more evidence coming out just more and more evidence coming out just more and more evidence coming out that is uh just well sounding sounding that is uh just well sounding sounding that is uh just well sounding sounding the the alarm and and exposing the lie the the alarm and and exposing the lie the the alarm and and exposing the lie of some of these things. And then you've of some of these things. And then you've of some of these things. And then you've of course had the big reports uh the CAS of course had the big reports uh the CAS of course had the big reports uh the CAS report in the UK and the uh health and report in the UK and the uh health and report in the UK and the uh health and human services report uh in the US and human services report uh in the US and human services report uh in the US and some of these systemic reviews that uh some of these systemic reviews that uh some of these systemic reviews that uh lie behind those uh lie behind those uh lie behind those uh that have really emboldened people in that have really emboldened people in that have really emboldened people in the medical world to really say what the medical world to really say what the medical world to really say what they've long thought which is this is

they've long thought which is this is they've long thought which is this is irresponsible. This is medical irresponsible. This is medical irresponsible. This is medical experiment. This is actually a medical experiment. This is actually a medical experiment. This is actually a medical scandal. Um so more and more uh doctors scandal. Um so more and more uh doctors scandal. Um so more and more uh doctors and therapists and others are now and therapists and others are now and therapists and others are now willing to speak up and risk their willing to speak up and risk their willing to speak up and risk their livelihoods um as they become more and livelihoods um as they become more and livelihoods um as they become more and more convinced that this is a great more convinced that this is a great more convinced that this is a great source of of harm. So I I was at a source of of harm. So I I was at a source of of harm. So I I was at a conference just in Australia just a conference just in Australia just a conference just in Australia just a couple of weekends ago where there were couple of weekends ago where there were couple of weekends ago where there were where where again medical people and all where where again medical people and all where where again medical people and all kinds of um um well psychologists and kinds of um um well psychologists and kinds of um um well psychologists and psychotherapists and psychiatrists and psychotherapists and psychiatrists and psychotherapists and psychiatrists and and some legal people and not Christian and some legal people and not Christian and some legal people and not Christian by and large um I mean many of them by and large um I mean many of them by and large um I mean many of them probably were but the conference itself probably were but the conference itself probably were but the conference itself wasn't explicitly Christian but these wasn't explicitly Christian but these wasn't explicitly Christian but these were just concerned professionals coming were just concerned professionals coming were just concerned professionals coming together saying we have to stop at the together saying we have to stop at the together saying we have to stop at the very least have to stop what's happening very least have to stop what's happening very least have to stop what's happening to children and adolescence. to children and adolescence. to children and adolescence. >> Let me just take a step back, Rob, into >> Let me just take a step back, Rob, into >> Let me just take a step back, Rob, into a a bigger a bigger question that I one a a bigger a bigger question that I one a a bigger a bigger question that I one of those again that I don't think many of those again that I don't think many of those again that I don't think many people people people understand the background of and that is understand the background of and that is understand the background of and that is should we distinguish between sex and should we distinguish between sex and should we distinguish between sex and gender? That's a that's a very good gender? That's a that's a very good gender? That's a that's a very good question that I still wrestle with. Um question that I still wrestle with. Um question that I still wrestle with. Um um now in the book I argue that um now in the book I argue that um now in the book I argue that um it it's a kind of a ship that sailed um it it's a kind of a ship that sailed um it it's a kind of a ship that sailed and so let's see if we can make it work.

and so let's see if we can make it work. and so let's see if we can make it work. Um but there are people who arguing who Um but there are people who arguing who Um but there are people who arguing who have argued the ship should never have have argued the ship should never have have argued the ship should never have sailed uh or that we ought to recall it sailed uh or that we ought to recall it sailed uh or that we ought to recall it to the port. So um so even the to the port. So um so even the to the port. So um so even the philosopher Alex Burn who's not a philosopher Alex Burn who's not a philosopher Alex Burn who's not a Christian so as I'm aware but in his Christian so as I'm aware but in his Christian so as I'm aware but in his book um what's it called now it's here book um what's it called now it's here book um what's it called now it's here the trouble with gender um yeah he the trouble with gender um yeah he the trouble with gender um yeah he argues quite a strong case for just argues quite a strong case for just argues quite a strong case for just losing the language agenda uh alto losing the language agenda uh alto losing the language agenda uh alto together and he has some good points. together and he has some good points. together and he has some good points. However, um However, um However, um there obviously is a difference between there obviously is a difference between there obviously is a difference between having a particular type of body and having a particular type of body and having a particular type of body and then how we conceive of that body and then how we conceive of that body and then how we conceive of that body and how we present that body in the world. how we present that body in the world. how we present that body in the world. Now, as I say in the book, I I think we Now, as I say in the book, I I think we Now, as I say in the book, I I think we could easily talk about, you know, could easily talk about, you know, could easily talk about, you know, biological sex, psychological sex, and biological sex, psychological sex, and biological sex, psychological sex, and social sex. Um that would kind of join social sex. Um that would kind of join social sex. Um that would kind of join everything together nicely that you okay everything together nicely that you okay everything together nicely that you okay you have you have a biological sex and you have you have a biological sex and you have you have a biological sex and then you think about that in certain then you think about that in certain then you think about that in certain ways and then you [clears throat] ways and then you [clears throat] ways and then you [clears throat] present that in certain ways uh in the present that in certain ways uh in the present that in certain ways uh in the way you dress and the things you do in way you dress and the things you do in way you dress and the things you do in life and the way you even just uh the life and the way you even just uh the life and the way you even just uh the way you relate and hold yourself. Um so way you relate and hold yourself. Um so way you relate and hold yourself. Um so yeah if I had uh if I had control for yeah if I had uh if I had control for yeah if I had uh if I had control for the English language which I clearly the English language which I clearly the English language which I clearly don't um that would be probably my don't um that would be probably my don't um that would be probably my preferred option.

preferred option. preferred option. >> Yeah. But given that uh through the 50s >> Yeah. But given that uh through the 50s >> Yeah. But given that uh through the 50s and 60s uh the language of gender and 60s uh the language of gender and 60s uh the language of gender uh well initially um um came to sort of uh well initially um um came to sort of uh well initially um um came to sort of apply to the social expression of sex uh apply to the social expression of sex uh apply to the social expression of sex uh and social roles and that kind of thing and social roles and that kind of thing and social roles and that kind of thing but then also to the psychological um but then also to the psychological um but then also to the psychological um conceptions of sex. Um we've ever since conceptions of sex. Um we've ever since conceptions of sex. Um we've ever since sort of been stuck with gender but sort of been stuck with gender but sort of been stuck with gender but nobody's ever quite sure what it means. nobody's ever quite sure what it means. nobody's ever quite sure what it means. is does it is it just functioning as a is does it is it just functioning as a is does it is it just functioning as a synonym for sex, which sometimes of synonym for sex, which sometimes of synonym for sex, which sometimes of course it is on on government forms and course it is on on government forms and course it is on on government forms and things. Um but then sometimes it isn't. things. Um but then sometimes it isn't. things. Um but then sometimes it isn't. Um Um Um uh or is it referring more specifically uh or is it referring more specifically uh or is it referring more specifically to gender identity, the psychological or to gender identity, the psychological or to gender identity, the psychological or is it referring to gender roles or is it referring to gender roles or is it referring to gender roles or expression, the social? Um and so yeah, expression, the social? Um and so yeah, expression, the social? Um and so yeah, it it just creates a bit of a world of it it just creates a bit of a world of it it just creates a bit of a world of confusion. And there are you've kind of confusion. And there are you've kind of confusion. And there are you've kind of got to interrogate anything you read and got to interrogate anything you read and got to interrogate anything you read and almost anyone you speak to just to almost anyone you speak to just to almost anyone you speak to just to clarify what what in what sense are you clarify what what in what sense are you clarify what what in what sense are you using the word gender?

using the word gender? using the word gender? >> Um you know so it's often people say oh >> Um you know so it's often people say oh >> Um you know so it's often people say oh my gender is male. Well uh well strictly my gender is male. Well uh well strictly my gender is male. Well uh well strictly speaking in the current lingo no your speaking in the current lingo no your speaking in the current lingo no your sex is male. Um but of course your sex is male. Um but of course your sex is male. Um but of course your gender is also male because your sex is gender is also male because your sex is gender is also male because your sex is male. male. male. >> Um but then you then that begs the >> Um but then you then that begs the >> Um but then you then that begs the question what why do we need gender then question what why do we need gender then question what why do we need gender then if if sex does the job? Um, if if sex does the job? Um, if if sex does the job? Um, >> no. >> no. >> no. >> But again, I I think the reality is yes, >> But again, I I think the reality is yes, >> But again, I I think the reality is yes, there are different ways of uh there are different ways of uh there are different ways of uh presenting your sex, you know. So, we presenting your sex, you know. So, we presenting your sex, you know. So, we don't all dress the same way or wear our don't all dress the same way or wear our don't all dress the same way or wear our hair the same way or uh hair the same way or uh hair the same way or uh there are different ways of being a man, there are different ways of being a man, there are different ways of being a man, different ways of being a woman that are different ways of being a woman that are different ways of being a woman that are are not confusing, but they're just not are not confusing, but they're just not are not confusing, but they're just not the same. Um and so I found myself the same. Um and so I found myself the same. Um and so I found myself saying over over the over recent months saying over over the over recent months saying over over the over recent months um uh you know sex is not a spectrum and um uh you know sex is not a spectrum and um uh you know sex is not a spectrum and because gender is really the extension because gender is really the extension because gender is really the extension of sex, gender is not a spectrum. Uh but of sex, gender is not a spectrum. Uh but of sex, gender is not a spectrum. Uh but masculinity is a spectrum masculinity is a spectrum masculinity is a spectrum >> and femininity is a spectrum. You know >> and femininity is a spectrum. You know >> and femininity is a spectrum. You know there are literally billions billions of there are literally billions billions of there are literally billions billions of different ways of being a male on this different ways of being a male on this different ways of being a male on this planet and likewise a female on this planet and likewise a female on this planet and likewise a female on this planet. Um, planet. Um, planet. Um, >> and uh that in a sense that's that's >> and uh that in a sense that's that's >> and uh that in a sense that's that's part of created diversity.

part of created diversity. part of created diversity. It's not not a bug but a feature. It's not not a bug but a feature. It's not not a bug but a feature. >> Yeah. Well, that's >> Yeah. Well, that's >> Yeah. Well, that's if if we if we collapsed everything if if we if we collapsed everything if if we if we collapsed everything within sex and we got rid of the concept within sex and we got rid of the concept within sex and we got rid of the concept of gender, it would seem that we would of gender, it would seem that we would of gender, it would seem that we would run also not just into a run also not just into a run also not just into a self-presentation self-presentation self-presentation problem that you're describing here and problem that you're describing here and problem that you're describing here and individuality, but also a cultural individuality, but also a cultural individuality, but also a cultural anthropological problem because it's not anthropological problem because it's not anthropological problem because it's not just that we feel differently and we just that we feel differently and we just that we feel differently and we express our femininity and masculinity express our femininity and masculinity express our femininity and masculinity in some, you know, shared but also in some, you know, shared but also in some, you know, shared but also different ways. but also the different ways. but also the different ways. but also the expectations we have for men and women expectations we have for men and women expectations we have for men and women vary substantially from culture to vary substantially from culture to vary substantially from culture to culture and from subculture to culture and from subculture to culture and from subculture to subculture. So one of the overall subculture. So one of the overall subculture. So one of the overall challenges we face is to be able to challenges we face is to be able to challenges we face is to be able to affirm a biological essentialism. I mean affirm a biological essentialism. I mean affirm a biological essentialism. I mean in the sense that you are male, you are in the sense that you are male, you are in the sense that you are male, you are female. You can see this from the organs female. You can see this from the organs female. You can see this from the organs that you have that are given to you by that you have that are given to you by that you have that are given to you by God. And at the same time, there's not God. And at the same time, there's not God. And at the same time, there's not only one way to be able to express that.

only one way to be able to express that. only one way to be able to express that. But you can see why people do not want But you can see why people do not want But you can see why people do not want to stick with gender because once you to stick with gender because once you to stick with gender because once you all of a sudden get into Butler and you all of a sudden get into Butler and you all of a sudden get into Butler and you get into gender theory and all these get into gender theory and all these get into gender theory and all these things, you realize, oh, it's actually a things, you realize, oh, it's actually a things, you realize, oh, it's actually a way of separating us from biological, way of separating us from biological, way of separating us from biological, it's a way to explain that everything's it's a way to explain that everything's it's a way to explain that everything's a construct. Just like I opened the a construct. Just like I opened the a construct. Just like I opened the podcast with everything's a construct. podcast with everything's a construct. podcast with everything's a construct. So you can see why the problem is there. So you can see why the problem is there. So you can see why the problem is there. But if we collapsed it back all into sex But if we collapsed it back all into sex But if we collapsed it back all into sex into a biological essentialism without into a biological essentialism without into a biological essentialism without any expressive component, then I'm not I any expressive component, then I'm not I any expressive component, then I'm not I don't know how that would work don't know how that would work don't know how that would work practically. And actually could have practically. And actually could have practically. And actually could have some pretty negative effects some pretty negative effects some pretty negative effects >> as well and negative effects that we've >> as well and negative effects that we've >> as well and negative effects that we've seen that we've had the familiarity with seen that we've had the familiarity with seen that we've had the familiarity with of telling everybody that there's only of telling everybody that there's only of telling everybody that there's only one way to be able to be masculine or one way to be able to be masculine or one way to be able to be masculine or only one way to be feminine. And I think only one way to be feminine. And I think only one way to be feminine. And I think also for Christians, you run into a also for Christians, you run into a also for Christians, you run into a problem there because biblically that's problem there because biblically that's problem there because biblically that's there are some clear differentiations, there are some clear differentiations, there are some clear differentiations, but there's also so much substantial but there's also so much substantial but there's also so much substantial overlap that you risk running into a a overlap that you risk running into a a overlap that you risk running into a a really a bifurcated disciplehip.

really a bifurcated disciplehip. really a bifurcated disciplehip. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Am I off track there? >> Am I off track there? >> Am I off track there? >> No, no, no. I think that's exactly >> No, no, no. I think that's exactly >> No, no, no. I think that's exactly right. I think that's exactly right. Uh right. I think that's exactly right. Uh right. I think that's exactly right. Uh and one of the ironies is the whole and one of the ironies is the whole and one of the ironies is the whole trans movement trades on very very rigid trans movement trades on very very rigid trans movement trades on very very rigid narrow gender stereotypes. Yeah. narrow gender stereotypes. Yeah. narrow gender stereotypes. Yeah. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Uh so whereas you know once upon a time >> Uh so whereas you know once upon a time >> Uh so whereas you know once upon a time we we called a girl who just loved rough we we called a girl who just loved rough we we called a girl who just loved rough and tumble and climbing trees and and and tumble and climbing trees and and and tumble and climbing trees and and that sort of thing we just said okay that sort of thing we just said okay that sort of thing we just said okay she's a bit of a tomboy. Whereas now of she's a bit of a tomboy. Whereas now of she's a bit of a tomboy. Whereas now of course uh you the diagnosis would be oh course uh you the diagnosis would be oh course uh you the diagnosis would be oh no no no she's she's probably trans. Um no no no she's she's probably trans. Um no no no she's she's probably trans. Um and then likewise a little boy doesn't and then likewise a little boy doesn't and then likewise a little boy doesn't turn every stick into a gun but um turn every stick into a gun but um turn every stick into a gun but um actually likes dance and and beauty and actually likes dance and and beauty and actually likes dance and and beauty and you know oh yes he's he's he's trans. Um you know oh yes he's he's he's trans. Um you know oh yes he's he's he's trans. Um so yeah it's a that's a tragedy and it so yeah it's a that's a tragedy and it so yeah it's a that's a tragedy and it also can play out in the church of also can play out in the church of also can play out in the church of course where course where course where now again I think every culture now again I think every culture now again I think every culture including church cultures inevitably including church cultures inevitably including church cultures inevitably develop um gender stereotypes or at develop um gender stereotypes or at develop um gender stereotypes or at least gender types. A friend of mine has least gender types. A friend of mine has least gender types. A friend of mine has made a helpful distinction between types made a helpful distinction between types made a helpful distinction between types and stereotypes, you know.

and stereotypes, you know. and stereotypes, you know. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um he [clears throat] he illustrates >> Um he [clears throat] he illustrates >> Um he [clears throat] he illustrates this by saying, "Yeah, when we go to a this by saying, "Yeah, when we go to a this by saying, "Yeah, when we go to a black tie wedding or something, we okay, black tie wedding or something, we okay, black tie wedding or something, we okay, we go right, everybody goes straight we go right, everybody goes straight we go right, everybody goes straight into full-on stereotype mode, you know, into full-on stereotype mode, you know, into full-on stereotype mode, you know, men in tuxedos, women in cocktail men in tuxedos, women in cocktail men in tuxedos, women in cocktail dresses or whatever." Uh but then when dresses or whatever." Uh but then when dresses or whatever." Uh but then when we come home, we revert to types rather we come home, we revert to types rather we come home, we revert to types rather than stereotypes uh in a much broader, than stereotypes uh in a much broader, than stereotypes uh in a much broader, looser way. Yeah. looser way. Yeah. looser way. Yeah. >> Um but where our types get too tight and >> Um but where our types get too tight and >> Um but where our types get too tight and start to become stereotype, that's when start to become stereotype, that's when start to become stereotype, that's when we start to um send messages to people we start to um send messages to people we start to um send messages to people in [clears throat] our churches that in [clears throat] our churches that in [clears throat] our churches that that there's something wrong with them. that there's something wrong with them. that there's something wrong with them. >> Uh just because they're not in the >> Uh just because they're not in the >> Uh just because they're not in the center of the that spectrum we call center of the that spectrum we call center of the that spectrum we call masculinity. They they're more towards masculinity. They they're more towards masculinity. They they're more towards the the fringes. They're not outside the the the fringes. They're not outside the the the fringes. They're not outside the bounds, but they're just not right in bounds, but they're just not right in bounds, but they're just not right in smack in the middle. And smack in the middle. And smack in the middle. And um so all if all we ever have is um um I um so all if all we ever have is um um I um so all if all we ever have is um um I don't know um barbecue meat nights for don't know um barbecue meat nights for don't know um barbecue meat nights for men and craft events for women. If men and craft events for women. If men and craft events for women. If that's all we ever have, it does send a that's all we ever have, it does send a that's all we ever have, it does send a message that if you're not a man who's message that if you're not a man who's message that if you're not a man who's into meat, there's something wrong with into meat, there's something wrong with into meat, there's something wrong with you. Or not a woman who's into craft, you. Or not a woman who's into craft, you. Or not a woman who's into craft, there's something wrong with you. Um, there's something wrong with you. Um, there's something wrong with you. Um, and again, that's where the that's where and again, that's where the that's where and again, that's where the that's where trans ideas come in. Um, and say to trans ideas come in. Um, and say to trans ideas come in. Um, and say to people, well, yeah, what's wrong with people, well, yeah, what's wrong with people, well, yeah, what's wrong with you is that you're trans.

you is that you're trans. you is that you're trans. >> I want to just uh pinpoint something. I >> I want to just uh pinpoint something. I >> I want to just uh pinpoint something. I meant to bring it up earlier, but it's meant to bring it up earlier, but it's meant to bring it up earlier, but it's relevant here on the question of what relevant here on the question of what relevant here on the question of what you do with with children. And when you do with with children. And when you do with with children. And when children are, well, I don't seem to be children are, well, I don't seem to be children are, well, I don't seem to be like the other boys or I don't seem to like the other boys or I don't seem to like the other boys or I don't seem to be like the other girls. And we've be like the other girls. And we've be like the other girls. And we've always handled that a certain way in the always handled that a certain way in the always handled that a certain way in the past. And we've recognized, especially past. And we've recognized, especially past. And we've recognized, especially in puberty, a lot of those things in puberty, a lot of those things in puberty, a lot of those things change. You know, personalities change, change. You know, personalities change, change. You know, personalities change, attitudes change, presentation changes attitudes change, presentation changes attitudes change, presentation changes um as the body changes. So, we've seen um as the body changes. So, we've seen um as the body changes. So, we've seen that generally work out um there. But that generally work out um there. But that generally work out um there. But when I was talking to Ross DA of the New when I was talking to Ross DA of the New when I was talking to Ross DA of the New York Times, and I've mentioned this on York Times, and I've mentioned this on York Times, and I've mentioned this on this podcast before, but it's always this podcast before, but it's always this podcast before, but it's always relevant. I couldn't understand why the relevant. I couldn't understand why the relevant. I couldn't understand why the Cass report in the UK didn't get the Cass report in the UK didn't get the Cass report in the UK didn't get the kind of traction in the United States kind of traction in the United States kind of traction in the United States that it did in the UK. And I can't speak that it did in the UK. And I can't speak that it did in the UK. And I can't speak to Australia in the same way, so perhaps to Australia in the same way, so perhaps to Australia in the same way, so perhaps you can. Um, but he pointed out you can. Um, but he pointed out you can. Um, but he pointed out something that should have been obvious something that should have been obvious something that should have been obvious to me, which was in the UK, the to me, which was in the UK, the to me, which was in the UK, the government's paying for these government's paying for these government's paying for these treatments. So, they want to know treatments. So, they want to know treatments. So, they want to know whether they're valid. In the United whether they're valid. In the United whether they're valid. In the United States, it's a free market, so you're States, it's a free market, so you're States, it's a free market, so you're paying out of pocket. So, if you can paying out of pocket. So, if you can paying out of pocket. So, if you can convince the parents that their child is convince the parents that their child is convince the parents that their child is going to commit suicide or at least be going to commit suicide or at least be going to commit suicide or at least be extremely unhappy unless you pay for extremely unhappy unless you pay for extremely unhappy unless you pay for this surgery, that's a vast money-making this surgery, that's a vast money-making this surgery, that's a vast money-making enterprise. I don't know how that's enterprise. I don't know how that's enterprise. I don't know how that's played out in Australia. Of course, the played out in Australia. Of course, the played out in Australia. Of course, the way Americans typically handle this is way Americans typically handle this is way Americans typically handle this is then if there's a problem, dransitioners then if there's a problem, dransitioners then if there's a problem, dransitioners will go back and sue the doctors. And will go back and sue the doctors. And will go back and sue the doctors. And that's how the system tends to correct

that's how the system tends to correct that's how the system tends to correct itself here. And I don't know how much itself here. And I don't know how much itself here. And I don't know how much that is happening. I'm sure some of that is happening. I'm sure some of that is happening. I'm sure some of that's happening uh now, but does the that's happening uh now, but does the that's happening uh now, but does the dynamic play out differently in dynamic play out differently in dynamic play out differently in Australia closer to the UK perhaps? Australia closer to the UK perhaps? Australia closer to the UK perhaps? >> Um well, Australia tends to be a >> Um well, Australia tends to be a >> Um well, Australia tends to be a combination of the US and UK. combination of the US and UK. combination of the US and UK. >> Um they even refer to our parliamentary >> Um they even refer to our parliamentary >> Um they even refer to our parliamentary system as a washminster system. Um um system as a washminster system. Um um system as a washminster system. Um um but uh yeah, so we do do we we have the but uh yeah, so we do do we we have the but uh yeah, so we do do we we have the great blessing in Australia of great blessing in Australia of great blessing in Australia of understanding both British and American understanding both British and American understanding both British and American humor uh and uh getting both cultures to humor uh and uh getting both cultures to humor uh and uh getting both cultures to at least to a large extent. But yeah, at least to a large extent. But yeah, at least to a large extent. But yeah, >> but yeah, we're somewhere in between, I >> but yeah, we're somewhere in between, I >> but yeah, we're somewhere in between, I think. Um but even in the UK there have think. Um but even in the UK there have think. Um but even in the UK there have been court cases and uh um here there been court cases and uh um here there been court cases and uh um here there are some court cases in different states are some court cases in different states are some court cases in different states again have different laws. the state of again have different laws. the state of again have different laws. the state of Queensland where I was speaking last Queensland where I was speaking last Queensland where I was speaking last weekend has just declared uh help very weekend has just declared uh help very weekend has just declared uh help very helpfully that a woman is an adult human helpfully that a woman is an adult human helpfully that a woman is an adult human female and um this is uh where the female and um this is uh where the female and um this is uh where the Australian sex commissioner seems to Australian sex commissioner seems to Australian sex commissioner seems to have no idea what a woman is and yeah so have no idea what a woman is and yeah so have no idea what a woman is and yeah so we look we're we're still a little like we look we're we're still a little like we look we're we're still a little like the US in a place of the US in a place of the US in a place of uh flux and confusion with different uh flux and confusion with different uh flux and confusion with different states at different places. Yeah, let's states at different places. Yeah, let's states at different places. Yeah, let's uh go in a different direction here. Um uh go in a different direction here. Um uh go in a different direction here. Um I teach cultural apologetics and when I teach cultural apologetics and when I teach cultural apologetics and when you're trying to trace cultural change, you're trying to trace cultural change, you're trying to trace cultural change, you have a lot of different options of you have a lot of different options of you have a lot of different options of being able to explain the causes behind being able to explain the causes behind being able to explain the causes behind the cultural change. None of them is the cultural change. None of them is the cultural change. None of them is necessarily wrong, but different people

necessarily wrong, but different people necessarily wrong, but different people might put a different emphasis on some might put a different emphasis on some might put a different emphasis on some or the others. Rarely is it to the utter or the others. Rarely is it to the utter or the others. Rarely is it to the utter exclusion of the other. I'm wondering, exclusion of the other. I'm wondering, exclusion of the other. I'm wondering, Rob, do you lean more toward Rob, do you lean more toward Rob, do you lean more toward philosophical philosophical philosophical or technological arguments to account or technological arguments to account or technological arguments to account for the widespread adoption and for the widespread adoption and for the widespread adoption and plausibility of transgender theory? plausibility of transgender theory? plausibility of transgender theory? >> That's a very astute question because >> That's a very astute question because >> That's a very astute question because certainly none of this or very little of certainly none of this or very little of certainly none of this or very little of this could be happening without the this could be happening without the this could be happening without the technological and medical and surgical technological and medical and surgical technological and medical and surgical developments that we've seen. Um now developments that we've seen. Um now developments that we've seen. Um now clearly if you think back to Deuteronomy clearly if you think back to Deuteronomy clearly if you think back to Deuteronomy 22:5 and the prohibition against 22:5 and the prohibition against 22:5 and the prohibition against crossdressing there um the desire to crossdressing there um the desire to crossdressing there um the desire to crossdress um or to present as the other crossdress um or to present as the other crossdress um or to present as the other sex um is clearly ancient uh at least sex um is clearly ancient uh at least sex um is clearly ancient uh at least some some some >> no that's not new and historically cases >> no that's not new and historically cases >> no that's not new and historically cases of um what what you might call you know of um what what you might call you know of um what what you might call you know genuine gender dysphoria genuine gender dysphoria genuine gender dysphoria um certainly are there in the historical um certainly are there in the historical um certainly are there in the historical record and uh there have been people in record and uh there have been people in record and uh there have been people in great pain and distress about their sex great pain and distress about their sex great pain and distress about their sex for any number of reasons. And that's a for any number of reasons. And that's a for any number of reasons. And that's a whole thing we could get into too. What whole thing we could get into too. What whole thing we could get into too. What what what is it that leads people uh to what what is it that leads people uh to what what is it that leads people uh to a place of what you might call sex a place of what you might call sex a place of what you might call sex rejection or or or or or rejection or or or or or rejection or or or or or where they're ashamed of their sex, want where they're ashamed of their sex, want where they're ashamed of their sex, want to wish they could be the other sex or to wish they could be the other sex or to wish they could be the other sex or perhaps believe they are the other perhaps believe they are the other perhaps believe they are the other sexes. Anyway, lots of possible reasons sexes. Anyway, lots of possible reasons sexes. Anyway, lots of possible reasons that lead people to those places.

that lead people to those places. that lead people to those places. Um but it really was only uh well midway Um but it really was only uh well midway Um but it really was only uh well midway through last century that uh that through last century that uh that through last century that uh that serious surgical attempts started being serious surgical attempts started being serious surgical attempts started being made to um transform cosmetically at made to um transform cosmetically at made to um transform cosmetically at least transform the bodies of um men least transform the bodies of um men least transform the bodies of um men particularly into particularly into particularly into um the feminine form. um the feminine form. um the feminine form. And that's just gone on uh from here and And that's just gone on uh from here and And that's just gone on uh from here and the surgical techniques have developed the surgical techniques have developed the surgical techniques have developed and um well some might say improved and um well some might say improved and um well some might say improved although again there's so much although again there's so much although again there's so much malpractice and so many disaster stories malpractice and so many disaster stories malpractice and so many disaster stories and and and >> so many unhappy uh um patients out there >> so many unhappy uh um patients out there >> so many unhappy uh um patients out there you wonder how much they've really you wonder how much they've really you wonder how much they've really improved. But improved. But improved. But >> I I've even >> I I've even >> I I've even >> we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here >> we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here >> we wouldn't be here. We wouldn't be here without the technological. Well, I I'm without the technological. Well, I I'm without the technological. Well, I I'm just thinking, Rob, even at a deeper just thinking, Rob, even at a deeper just thinking, Rob, even at a deeper level than the tech than the surgical level than the tech than the surgical level than the tech than the surgical technology and the hormonal treatments technology and the hormonal treatments technology and the hormonal treatments is simply the Gnostic tendencies of the is simply the Gnostic tendencies of the is simply the Gnostic tendencies of the internet itself, the avatar um the internet itself, the avatar um the internet itself, the avatar um the avatar dynamic of the internet, the way avatar dynamic of the internet, the way avatar dynamic of the internet, the way you can put on and take off identities you can put on and take off identities you can put on and take off identities at whim um that are disconnected, at whim um that are disconnected, at whim um that are disconnected, present in ways that are disconnected present in ways that are disconnected present in ways that are disconnected from your biological reality.

from your biological reality. from your biological reality. >> Yeah. Yeah, the the internet is a very >> Yeah. Yeah, the the internet is a very >> Yeah. Yeah, the the internet is a very disemboding disemboding disemboding um phenomenon and one of the advice that um phenomenon and one of the advice that um phenomenon and one of the advice that uh well those who seek to advise parents uh well those who seek to advise parents uh well those who seek to advise parents who are trying to help their who are trying to help their who are trying to help their transidentified teens uh to find their transidentified teens uh to find their transidentified teens uh to find their way out of the maze is get them off way out of the maze is get them off way out of the maze is get them off their devices into their bodies out into their devices into their bodies out into their devices into their bodies out into the world. you know, get them riding the world. you know, get them riding the world. you know, get them riding horses, climbing climbing walls, get horses, climbing climbing walls, get horses, climbing climbing walls, get them playing a sport, get them playing a them playing a sport, get them playing a them playing a sport, get them playing a musical instrument, get them just musical instrument, get them just musical instrument, get them just walking um out of their rooms, off their walking um out of their rooms, off their walking um out of their rooms, off their screens. Um because yeah, the effects of screens. Um because yeah, the effects of screens. Um because yeah, the effects of that on well on all minds, but certainly that on well on all minds, but certainly that on well on all minds, but certainly young developing minds are profound. And young developing minds are profound. And young developing minds are profound. And um so that is certainly part of the um so that is certainly part of the um so that is certainly part of the problem. And [clears throat] problem. And [clears throat] problem. And [clears throat] >> of course this well the internet um in a >> of course this well the internet um in a >> of course this well the internet um in a sense just comes in alongside what Carl sense just comes in alongside what Carl sense just comes in alongside what Carl Truman has so helpfully pointed out for Truman has so helpfully pointed out for Truman has so helpfully pointed out for us all the just the whole us all the just the whole us all the just the whole um the modern self and the um you know um the modern self and the um you know um the modern self and the um you know the expressive individualism that that the expressive individualism that that the expressive individualism that that uh is just in the air we breathe and uh is just in the air we breathe and uh is just in the air we breathe and >> so yeah it just plays into that. But the >> so yeah it just plays into that. But the >> so yeah it just plays into that. But the other factor I should mention because it other factor I should mention because it other factor I should mention because it does relate to one of the reasons people does relate to one of the reasons people does relate to one of the reasons people get drawn into this world is uh for get drawn into this world is uh for get drawn into this world is uh for people who are um neurodeiverse or on people who are um neurodeiverse or on people who are um neurodeiverse or on the autism spectrum um not only they the autism spectrum um not only they the autism spectrum um not only they they're very much drawn to online life they're very much drawn to online life they're very much drawn to online life and uh but also find it hard to relate and uh but also find it hard to relate and uh but also find it hard to relate to their own not only their own social to their own not only their own social to their own not only their own social group but their own body and find the

group but their own body and find the group but their own body and find the changes of adolescence particularly changes of adolescence particularly changes of adolescence particularly traumatic. Um yeah, boys can find the traumatic. Um yeah, boys can find the traumatic. Um yeah, boys can find the development of growth of body hair very development of growth of body hair very development of growth of body hair very distressing for them and uh girls distressing for them and uh girls distressing for them and uh girls likewise find the bodily changes of likewise find the bodily changes of likewise find the bodily changes of puberty distressing and puberty distressing and puberty distressing and >> um >> um >> um and as you say once if they're familiar and as you say once if they're familiar and as you say once if they're familiar with uh the whole avatar phenomenon and with uh the whole avatar phenomenon and with uh the whole avatar phenomenon and being able to as it were reinvent being able to as it were reinvent being able to as it were reinvent themselves online and here comes trans themselves online and here comes trans themselves online and here comes trans theory saying well the reason you're theory saying well the reason you're theory saying well the reason you're uncomfortable is because you're trans uncomfortable is because you're trans uncomfortable is because you're trans and you just need to you just need a new and you just need to you just need a new and you just need to you just need a new avatar and this is the way to do it. avatar and this is the way to do it. avatar and this is the way to do it. start taking testosterone or whatever. start taking testosterone or whatever. start taking testosterone or whatever. Um, yeah, it's this perfect storm. Um, yeah, it's this perfect storm. Um, yeah, it's this perfect storm. >> Yeah. And I I think evangelicals and our >> Yeah. And I I think evangelicals and our >> Yeah. And I I think evangelicals and our view of technology is often limited and view of technology is often limited and view of technology is often limited and it's limited to the explicit messages. it's limited to the explicit messages. it's limited to the explicit messages. And so when we're talking about devices, And so when we're talking about devices, And so when we're talking about devices, we are on the one hand saying yes we are on the one hand saying yes we are on the one hand saying yes because a lot of the messages that they because a lot of the messages that they because a lot of the messages that they will receive there will be um against will receive there will be um against will receive there will be um against our biblical beliefs. But at the same our biblical beliefs. But at the same our biblical beliefs. But at the same time, it's just the environment of of time, it's just the environment of of time, it's just the environment of of becoming disconnected from reality, from becoming disconnected from reality, from becoming disconnected from reality, from disconnected from from biology. So, it's disconnected from from biology. So, it's disconnected from from biology. So, it's not just what are you going to see or not just what are you going to see or not just what are you going to see or what are you going to hear, what are you what are you going to hear, what are you what are you going to hear, what are you going to learn, but those factors can be going to learn, but those factors can be going to learn, but those factors can be really significant as well, but it's really significant as well, but it's really significant as well, but it's just the fact that you're not present just the fact that you're not present just the fact that you're not present with your with your physical self. Um, with your with your physical self. Um, with your with your physical self. Um, >> let's let's just do I mean the the book >> let's let's just do I mean the the book >> let's let's just do I mean the the book is we're talking about the body God is we're talking about the body God is we're talking about the body God gives a biblical response to transgender gives a biblical response to transgender gives a biblical response to transgender theory written by Rob Smith. Um, the

theory written by Rob Smith. Um, the theory written by Rob Smith. Um, the book is so helpful because when people book is so helpful because when people book is so helpful because when people who are watching and listening to this, who are watching and listening to this, who are watching and listening to this, they pick up the book, they're going to they pick up the book, they're going to they pick up the book, they're going to see all this exploration of really see all this exploration of really see all this exploration of really significant philosophical argumentation significant philosophical argumentation significant philosophical argumentation that's important, but then they're going that's important, but then they're going that's important, but then they're going to pivot in the book toward a lot of to pivot in the book toward a lot of to pivot in the book toward a lot of biblical argumentation biblical argumentation biblical argumentation and and um and then application in the and and um and then application in the and and um and then application in the end. So, let's just start this and and end. So, let's just start this and and end. So, let's just start this and and keep it simple, Rob. What's the most keep it simple, Rob. What's the most keep it simple, Rob. What's the most important? There are others, but what's important? There are others, but what's important? There are others, but what's the most important biblical argument the most important biblical argument the most important biblical argument against transgender theory? against transgender theory? against transgender theory? >> Well, I I I do think the entirety of >> Well, I I I do think the entirety of >> Well, I I I do think the entirety of biblical um sexual ethics is really biblical um sexual ethics is really biblical um sexual ethics is really built on the foundation of Genesis 1 and built on the foundation of Genesis 1 and built on the foundation of Genesis 1 and two. Um and so when I came to writing two. Um and so when I came to writing two. Um and so when I came to writing the book and before that the PhD that the book and before that the PhD that the book and before that the PhD that lies behind it, um I planned just to lies behind it, um I planned just to lies behind it, um I planned just to write a chapter on Genesis 1 and 2. I write a chapter on Genesis 1 and 2. I write a chapter on Genesis 1 and 2. I ended up writing three chapters and ended up writing three chapters and ended up writing three chapters and could have written more um because could have written more um because could have written more um because there's so much there. and um there's so much there. and um there's so much there. and um um so much to appreciate and understand um so much to appreciate and understand um so much to appreciate and understand what's going on, what's been revealed.

what's going on, what's been revealed. what's going on, what's been revealed. Now, I think what we learn from those Now, I think what we learn from those Now, I think what we learn from those two chapters together, not only are two chapters together, not only are two chapters together, not only are there only two sexes, um male and there only two sexes, um male and there only two sexes, um male and female, that's right there in Genesis female, that's right there in Genesis female, that's right there in Genesis 1:27, 1:27, 1:27, uh but of course, the male uh of Genesis uh but of course, the male uh of Genesis uh but of course, the male uh of Genesis 1 is the man of Genesis 2. uh the female 1 is the man of Genesis 2. uh the female 1 is the man of Genesis 2. uh the female Genesis 1 is the woman of Genesis 2. Um Genesis 1 is the woman of Genesis 2. Um Genesis 1 is the woman of Genesis 2. Um so you have binary sex and that then you so you have binary sex and that then you so you have binary sex and that then you know it just sets the agenda that if know it just sets the agenda that if know it just sets the agenda that if you're born male you become a man and uh you're born male you become a man and uh you're born male you become a man and uh become a husband become a father if you become a husband become a father if you become a husband become a father if you marry and have children so on. Uh so marry and have children so on. Uh so marry and have children so on. Uh so those lines just follow straight through those lines just follow straight through those lines just follow straight through in scripture but they're all based on in scripture but they're all based on in scripture but they're all based on that fundamental foundation. that fundamental foundation. that fundamental foundation. But it does interest me that the first But it does interest me that the first But it does interest me that the first thing we're told about humanity well thing we're told about humanity well thing we're told about humanity well apart from sorry the very first thing is apart from sorry the very first thing is apart from sorry the very first thing is that we're made in the image of God. Um that we're made in the image of God. Um that we're made in the image of God. Um but then when we come to verse 27 of but then when we come to verse 27 of but then when we come to verse 27 of Genesis 1 male and female matey them Genesis 1 male and female matey them Genesis 1 male and female matey them that now they are biological terms. that now they are biological terms. that now they are biological terms. They're bodily terms. They're They're bodily terms. They're They're bodily terms. They're reproductive terms in fact. Uh so this reproductive terms in fact. Uh so this reproductive terms in fact. Uh so this is clearly very significant to what it is clearly very significant to what it is clearly very significant to what it is to be human. You can't be a nonsexed is to be human. You can't be a nonsexed is to be human. You can't be a nonsexed human. um you are a male or a female human. um you are a male or a female human. um you are a male or a female human. There is no there is no human. There is no there is no human. There is no there is no non-binary or uh agender or any of these non-binary or uh agender or any of these non-binary or uh agender or any of these uh [clears throat] claimed um non-sexed uh [clears throat] claimed um non-sexed uh [clears throat] claimed um non-sexed terms. Um so that's significant. And terms. Um so that's significant. And terms. Um so that's significant. And then in Genesis 2, likewise the Lord then in Genesis 2, likewise the Lord then in Genesis 2, likewise the Lord forms the body of the man even before he forms the body of the man even before he forms the body of the man even before he becomes a living being. Um so he is a

becomes a living being. Um so he is a becomes a living being. Um so he is a man because of the the body that he has. man because of the the body that he has. man because of the the body that he has. Um and of course then the Lord builds Um and of course then the Lord builds Um and of course then the Lord builds the woman from the side of the man uh the woman from the side of the man uh the woman from the side of the man uh again and uh uh she is is embodied again and uh uh she is is embodied again and uh uh she is is embodied differently. She is a in the Hebrew term differently. She is a in the Hebrew term differently. She is a in the Hebrew term a conto a like opposite. She's like him a conto a like opposite. She's like him a conto a like opposite. She's like him in humanity but opposite him in sex. Um in humanity but opposite him in sex. Um in humanity but opposite him in sex. Um and all of that again relates to bodies. and all of that again relates to bodies. and all of that again relates to bodies. So the title I suppose of my book which So the title I suppose of my book which So the title I suppose of my book which didn't wasn't my uh my doing it was didn't wasn't my uh my doing it was didn't wasn't my uh my doing it was lexom lexom marketing people the body lexom lexom marketing people the body lexom lexom marketing people the body god gives really is um god gives really is um god gives really is um it was a very clever it was a very clever it was a very clever uh choice of title because it answers uh choice of title because it answers uh choice of title because it answers the fundamental question how do I know the fundamental question how do I know the fundamental question how do I know how do I know if God has made me um to how do I know if God has made me um to how do I know if God has made me um to be a man or a woman and the answer is be a man or a woman and the answer is be a man or a woman and the answer is the body God gives the body God gives the body God gives >> I think it's a great title Rob because >> I think it's a great title Rob because >> I think it's a great title Rob because it gets it it hints also at the it gets it it hints also at the it gets it it hints also at the essential biblical and philosophical essential biblical and philosophical essential biblical and philosophical problem underneath everything which is problem underneath everything which is problem underneath everything which is the giveness of our bodies, the giveness the giveness of our bodies, the giveness the giveness of our bodies, the giveness of life, the giveness of things by a God of life, the giveness of things by a God of life, the giveness of things by a God who delights to give good good things.

who delights to give good good things. who delights to give good good things. The reason I had such a such an The reason I had such a such an The reason I had such a such an overwhelming reaction to what you overwhelming reaction to what you overwhelming reaction to what you describe as that that transgender turn describe as that that transgender turn describe as that that transgender turn in 2013 and 2014 is that it felt like we in 2013 and 2014 is that it felt like we in 2013 and 2014 is that it felt like we were arguing at the deepest level about were arguing at the deepest level about were arguing at the deepest level about the most essential elements of reality. the most essential elements of reality. the most essential elements of reality. Is anything given in this world? Because Is anything given in this world? Because Is anything given in this world? Because if our bodies are not given, then what if our bodies are not given, then what if our bodies are not given, then what else is? Is there anything at the bottom else is? Is there anything at the bottom else is? Is there anything at the bottom of anything or is everything just of anything or is everything just of anything or is everything just whatever we decide to make of it whatever we decide to make of it whatever we decide to make of it >> and that is existentially crushing. >> and that is existentially crushing. >> and that is existentially crushing. >> Now it see it's it seemed like a kind of >> Now it see it's it seemed like a kind of >> Now it see it's it seemed like a kind of game and maybe that's some of the game and maybe that's some of the game and maybe that's some of the philosophical backstory that you give philosophical backstory that you give philosophical backstory that you give that that that that gaming but it's one that that that that gaming but it's one that that that that gaming but it's one thing for a bunch of academics to talk thing for a bunch of academics to talk thing for a bunch of academics to talk about it and play with it in the 1990s. about it and play with it in the 1990s. about it and play with it in the 1990s. It's another thing for it to be enacted It's another thing for it to be enacted It's another thing for it to be enacted and not only enacted at a legal level in and not only enacted at a legal level in and not only enacted at a legal level in western culture but also then enforced western culture but also then enforced western culture but also then enforced and mandated on everyone and mandated on everyone and mandated on everyone >> that there is no giveness to anything in >> that there is no giveness to anything in >> that there is no giveness to anything in life.

life. life. >> Not even your body, not even in your >> Not even your body, not even in your >> Not even your body, not even in your earliest moments on this earth. So to go earliest moments on this earth. So to go earliest moments on this earth. So to go back to see at the essence of everything back to see at the essence of everything back to see at the essence of everything is a god who gives nothing short of is a god who gives nothing short of is a god who gives nothing short of life. life. life. It's a pretty good place to place to It's a pretty good place to place to It's a pretty good place to place to start. start. start. >> It's a very good place to start. And uh >> It's a very good place to start. And uh >> It's a very good place to start. And uh yeah and again to to circle back to yeah and again to to circle back to yeah and again to to circle back to where we were earlier you know contrast where we were earlier you know contrast where we were earlier you know contrast with you Fuko who wants to say we only with you Fuko who wants to say we only with you Fuko who wants to say we only see things a certain way because of the see things a certain way because of the see things a certain way because of the cultural spectacles we've been cultural spectacles we've been cultural spectacles we've been [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> given and that and then Judith Butler >> given and that and then Judith Butler >> given and that and then Judith Butler will say yes we we think there are male will say yes we we think there are male will say yes we we think there are male and female bodies but no that that's and female bodies but no that that's and female bodies but no that that's just we're just imposing those just we're just imposing those just we're just imposing those categories on uh on the bodies that are categories on uh on the bodies that are categories on uh on the bodies that are out there. there are just bodies and out there. there are just bodies and out there. there are just bodies and we've imposed these categories. But then we've imposed these categories. But then we've imposed these categories. But then to have scripture come along and say no, to have scripture come along and say no, to have scripture come along and say no, no, here is divine revelation. There are no, here is divine revelation. There are no, here is divine revelation. There are there is male and female and only male there is male and female and only male there is male and female and only male and female. Uh and uh and this is God's and female. Uh and uh and this is God's and female. Uh and uh and this is God's gift and it's good. I think that's the gift and it's good. I think that's the gift and it's good. I think that's the other thing perhaps to stress um because other thing perhaps to stress um because other thing perhaps to stress um because I it's it it's the goodness of sex, the I it's it it's the goodness of sex, the I it's it it's the goodness of sex, the goodness of embodiment, the goodness of goodness of embodiment, the goodness of goodness of embodiment, the goodness of being a man, the goodness of being a being a man, the goodness of being a being a man, the goodness of being a woman that uh is under attack uh in many woman that uh is under attack uh in many woman that uh is under attack uh in many ways. And um ways. And um ways. And um I guess if I had one message for you I guess if I had one message for you I guess if I had one message for you know teenagers, know teenagers, know teenagers, it's to say look yes adolescence is it's to say look yes adolescence is it's to say look yes adolescence is traumatic. Yes, puberty is um a

traumatic. Yes, puberty is um a traumatic. Yes, puberty is um a challenge but it's actually good. It's challenge but it's actually good. It's challenge but it's actually good. It's part of God's design. It's how you move part of God's design. It's how you move part of God's design. It's how you move from being a child to an adult and a from being a child to an adult and a from being a child to an adult and a girl to a woman, a boy to a man. Um, girl to a woman, a boy to a man. Um, girl to a woman, a boy to a man. Um, it's good. Your body's good. What's it's good. Your body's good. What's it's good. Your body's good. What's happening to your body is good. It's happening to your body is good. It's happening to your body is good. It's good to be male. It's good to be female. good to be male. It's good to be female. good to be male. It's good to be female. It's not It's not weak. It's not toxic. It's not It's not weak. It's not toxic. It's not It's not weak. It's not toxic. It's not, you know, so um, yeah, to It's not, you know, so um, yeah, to It's not, you know, so um, yeah, to teach these things to teach the goodness teach these things to teach the goodness teach these things to teach the goodness of creation as well as of course the way of creation as well as of course the way of creation as well as of course the way the fall complicates everything. Um, I'm the fall complicates everything. Um, I'm the fall complicates everything. Um, I'm going to ask you a question now, Rob, going to ask you a question now, Rob, going to ask you a question now, Rob, that you're uniquely that you're uniquely that you're uniquely gifted and trained to be able to answer. gifted and trained to be able to answer. gifted and trained to be able to answer. And I think you'll know where I'm I'm And I think you'll know where I'm I'm And I think you'll know where I'm I'm going with this. Do you see any tension going with this. Do you see any tension going with this. Do you see any tension between the Old Testament's focus on between the Old Testament's focus on between the Old Testament's focus on marriage and family and the New marriage and family and the New marriage and family and the New Testament's focus on our spiritual Testament's focus on our spiritual Testament's focus on our spiritual brotherhood? Of course, this is a brotherhood? Of course, this is a brotherhood? Of course, this is a question very relevant to the dimensions question very relevant to the dimensions question very relevant to the dimensions of your book on transgender theory, but of your book on transgender theory, but of your book on transgender theory, but it's also relevant in the base of it's also relevant in the base of it's also relevant in the base of biblical theology. How do you piece the biblical theology. How do you piece the biblical theology. How do you piece the Bible together? Bible together? Bible together? >> It is. >> It is. >> It is. >> Um yeah, I don't see tension um let >> Um yeah, I don't see tension um let >> Um yeah, I don't see tension um let alone conflict. Um but I do see a alone conflict. Um but I do see a alone conflict. Um but I do see a difference in emphasis.

difference in emphasis. difference in emphasis. Uh and part of that has to do with the Uh and part of that has to do with the Uh and part of that has to do with the way uh in which the well the particular way uh in which the well the particular way uh in which the well the particular calling of the people of Israel um calling of the people of Israel um calling of the people of Israel um and the way in which um that nation was and the way in which um that nation was and the way in which um that nation was to grow and uh to grow and uh to grow and uh uh and therefore the calling to um you uh and therefore the calling to um you uh and therefore the calling to um you know be fruitful and multiply had know be fruitful and multiply had know be fruitful and multiply had particular relevance of course to God's particular relevance of course to God's particular relevance of course to God's own people uh and as far as we can tell own people uh and as far as we can tell own people uh and as far as we can tell certainly remaining unmarried um was you certainly remaining unmarried um was you certainly remaining unmarried um was you know very much an exception uh even know very much an exception uh even know very much an exception uh even though of course being widowed um was though of course being widowed um was though of course being widowed um was you know sadly part of the course for you know sadly part of the course for you know sadly part of the course for many. Uh many. Uh many. Uh so there is I think a difference of so there is I think a difference of so there is I think a difference of emphasis perhaps from kind of this emphasis perhaps from kind of this emphasis perhaps from kind of this worldly fulfillment of uh promises. uh worldly fulfillment of uh promises. uh worldly fulfillment of uh promises. uh the way in which the church grows of the way in which the church grows of the way in which the church grows of course is through disciplem and um course is through disciplem and um course is through disciplem and um which of course includes which of course includes which of course includes Christian parents having children and Christian parents having children and Christian parents having children and and discipling their own children but and discipling their own children but and discipling their own children but it's of course much bigger than that too it's of course much bigger than that too it's of course much bigger than that too but there clearly is an emphasis in the but there clearly is an emphasis in the but there clearly is an emphasis in the New Testament care of Jesus himself I New Testament care of Jesus himself I New Testament care of Jesus himself I suppose who who is the quintessential um suppose who who is the quintessential um suppose who who is the quintessential um in Matthew 19 lingu language person in Matthew 19 lingu language person in Matthew 19 lingu language person who's made himself a unic for the sake who's made himself a unic for the sake who's made himself a unic for the sake of the kingdom of heaven. Um of the kingdom of heaven. Um of the kingdom of heaven. Um uh but as Jesus says in that passage, uh but as Jesus says in that passage, uh but as Jesus says in that passage, this is this is uh this is not for this is this is uh this is not for this is this is uh this is not for everybody.

everybody. everybody. But Paul likewise will see that uh there But Paul likewise will see that uh there But Paul likewise will see that uh there are advantages in in remaining unmarried are advantages in in remaining unmarried are advantages in in remaining unmarried and but again this is this is not for and but again this is this is not for and but again this is this is not for everybody. Um so I think there is again everybody. Um so I think there is again everybody. Um so I think there is again that shift in emphasis. Um but not not that shift in emphasis. Um but not not that shift in emphasis. Um but not not in any way at the expense of in a way in any way at the expense of in a way in any way at the expense of in a way that devalues the family or marriage. that devalues the family or marriage. that devalues the family or marriage. It's a very well it's impossible to read It's a very well it's impossible to read It's a very well it's impossible to read the New Testament and come up come away the New Testament and come up come away the New Testament and come up come away with a a low view of marriage and with a a low view of marriage and with a a low view of marriage and family. family. family. But perhaps you can do come away from But perhaps you can do come away from But perhaps you can do come away from the New Testament with a higher view of the New Testament with a higher view of the New Testament with a higher view of singleness than perhaps the Old singleness than perhaps the Old singleness than perhaps the Old Testament would have left you with. Testament would have left you with. Testament would have left you with. So that may be the way I'd put it. Not So that may be the way I'd put it. Not So that may be the way I'd put it. Not there's no devaluing of the family, but there's no devaluing of the family, but there's no devaluing of the family, but there is a a valuing of remaining there is a a valuing of remaining there is a a valuing of remaining unmarried for kingdom purposes for those unmarried for kingdom purposes for those unmarried for kingdom purposes for those to whom it is given. I like that. Well, to whom it is given. I like that. Well, to whom it is given. I like that. Well, I I just think if we're going to have a I I just think if we're going to have a I I just think if we're going to have a biblical response to transgender theory, biblical response to transgender theory, biblical response to transgender theory, which is what you're offering in this which is what you're offering in this which is what you're offering in this book, then we need a book, then we need a book, then we need a whole Bible hermeneutic that recognizes, whole Bible hermeneutic that recognizes, whole Bible hermeneutic that recognizes, as I was trained by our good friend Don as I was trained by our good friend Don as I was trained by our good friend Don Carson, Carson, Carson, >> and in thinking about the continuities >> and in thinking about the continuities >> and in thinking about the continuities and discontinuities of scriptures that and discontinuities of scriptures that and discontinuities of scriptures that the things that change and the things the things that change and the things the things that change and the things that stay the same. And so we know that that stay the same. And so we know that that stay the same. And so we know that the Bible does not contradict itself the Bible does not contradict itself the Bible does not contradict itself because God does not contradict himself.

because God does not contradict himself. because God does not contradict himself. And yet the ways he reveals himself and And yet the ways he reveals himself and And yet the ways he reveals himself and the priorities that he sets, we do the priorities that he sets, we do the priorities that he sets, we do sometimes change uh throughout the sometimes change uh throughout the sometimes change uh throughout the scriptures. So that's often what I'm scriptures. So that's often what I'm scriptures. So that's often what I'm finding in these debates which will come finding in these debates which will come finding in these debates which will come down to questions about about natural down to questions about about natural down to questions about about natural law, the best ways to be able to argue law, the best ways to be able to argue law, the best ways to be able to argue about these these matters. Um, I about these these matters. Um, I about these these matters. Um, I appreciated a biblical theological appreciated a biblical theological appreciated a biblical theological approach that you brought to this book approach that you brought to this book approach that you brought to this book to be able to acknowledge that we can to be able to acknowledge that we can to be able to acknowledge that we can handle these questions on multiple handle these questions on multiple handle these questions on multiple angles. um not only the angles of the angles. um not only the angles of the angles. um not only the angles of the the giveness of male and female as we the giveness of male and female as we the giveness of male and female as we just covered in there, but also the just covered in there, but also the just covered in there, but also the reality of the spiritual family and the reality of the spiritual family and the reality of the spiritual family and the way that God knits together a very way that God knits together a very way that God knits together a very different kind of of people um who are different kind of of people um who are different kind of of people um who are united in in Christ, male and female, united in in Christ, male and female, united in in Christ, male and female, you know, slave and free, uh Jew and you know, slave and free, uh Jew and you know, slave and free, uh Jew and Greek, and and on and on and on in Greek, and and on and on and on in Greek, and and on and on and on in there. So, we're just going to need all there. So, we're just going to need all there. So, we're just going to need all of those arguments together um to be of those arguments together um to be of those arguments together um to be able to to be able to respond able to to be able to respond able to to be able to respond effectively, not only intellectually effectively, not only intellectually effectively, not only intellectually uh philosophically, but also just uh philosophically, but also just uh philosophically, but also just practically. So, that's where I want to practically. So, that's where I want to practically. So, that's where I want to want to move next here. Um and the next want to move next here. Um and the next want to move next here. Um and the next two questions are are practical two questions are are practical two questions are are practical outworking of this. And as you mentioned outworking of this. And as you mentioned outworking of this. And as you mentioned early in the interview, Rob, part of early in the interview, Rob, part of early in the interview, Rob, part of your motivation, what are the your motivation, what are the your motivation, what are the experiences within your own, you know, experiences within your own, you know, experiences within your own, you know, broader family about this? But just broader family about this? But just broader family about this? But just start with the Christian who is um him start with the Christian who is um him start with the Christian who is um him or herself experiencing gender or herself experiencing gender or herself experiencing gender dysphoria. Just not the whole thing.

dysphoria. Just not the whole thing. dysphoria. Just not the whole thing. Just where do you start? Where do you Just where do you start? Where do you Just where do you start? Where do you start with that person? They're start with that person? They're start with that person? They're listening. They're watching. They're listening. They're watching. They're listening. They're watching. They're confused. They're hurting. Where do you confused. They're hurting. Where do you confused. They're hurting. Where do you start with them? start with them? start with them? >> Well, I I personally would want to start >> Well, I I personally would want to start >> Well, I I personally would want to start by listening to them and hearing their by listening to them and hearing their by listening to them and hearing their story. Um story. Um story. Um um Mark Yao House who has written a um Mark Yao House who has written a um Mark Yao House who has written a number of things in this space who um number of things in this space who um number of things in this space who um well who I I disagree with on some well who I I disagree with on some well who I I disagree with on some things but he has many helpful things to things but he has many helpful things to things but he has many helpful things to say. He uh says often when he meets say. He uh says often when he meets say. He uh says often when he meets someone he says something like you I someone he says something like you I someone he says something like you I feel like I'm meeting you in chapter 5 feel like I'm meeting you in chapter 5 feel like I'm meeting you in chapter 5 of of your story. Tell me about chapters of of your story. Tell me about chapters of of your story. Tell me about chapters 1 to four. Um [clears throat] 1 to four. Um [clears throat] 1 to four. Um [clears throat] and yeah, I think often that's uh just and yeah, I think often that's uh just and yeah, I think often that's uh just as a relational courtesy as well as a as a relational courtesy as well as a as a relational courtesy as well as a pastoral um a bit of pastoral wisdom pastoral um a bit of pastoral wisdom pastoral um a bit of pastoral wisdom that I think we need to try and that I think we need to try and that I think we need to try and understand a person the bigger picture understand a person the bigger picture understand a person the bigger picture for a person. Now again for some people for a person. Now again for some people for a person. Now again for some people their gender dysphoria is goes way back their gender dysphoria is goes way back their gender dysphoria is goes way back to childhood. Uh but for others it's to childhood. Uh but for others it's to childhood. Uh but for others it's come on in adolescence. Um and for some come on in adolescence. Um and for some come on in adolescence. Um and for some even it's come on later in life. Uh and even it's come on later in life. Uh and even it's come on later in life. Uh and now our job I suppose as pastors is not now our job I suppose as pastors is not now our job I suppose as pastors is not to um uh be clinicians or um to um uh be clinicians or um to um uh be clinicians or um psychologists uh unless we had that sort psychologists uh unless we had that sort psychologists uh unless we had that sort of training but still we want to of training but still we want to of training but still we want to understand [clears throat] the whole understand [clears throat] the whole understand [clears throat] the whole person and work out how to um how to person and work out how to um how to person and work out how to um how to bring the word of God to bear on their bring the word of God to bear on their bring the word of God to bear on their their lives. Um so yeah listening is their lives. Um so yeah listening is their lives. Um so yeah listening is where to start for sure. Um but perhaps

where to start for sure. Um but perhaps where to start for sure. Um but perhaps one of the key questions you can ask in one of the key questions you can ask in one of the key questions you can ask in the right way at the right time is what the right way at the right time is what the right way at the right time is what what what do you think is making you what what do you think is making you what what do you think is making you unhappy about being a boy or being a man unhappy about being a boy or being a man unhappy about being a boy or being a man or being a girl or being a woman? Um or being a girl or being a woman? Um or being a girl or being a woman? Um yeah essentially what what is the yeah essentially what what is the yeah essentially what what is the problem? [clears throat] problem? [clears throat] problem? [clears throat] And of course the person may not know um And of course the person may not know um And of course the person may not know um but they it may get them thinking and but they it may get them thinking and but they it may get them thinking and that's [clears throat] why I said there that's [clears throat] why I said there that's [clears throat] why I said there are many roads in here and there are are many roads in here and there are are many roads in here and there are some obvious ones like um you know some obvious ones like um you know some obvious ones like um you know sexual abuse or sexual trauma or sexual sexual abuse or sexual trauma or sexual sexual abuse or sexual trauma or sexual shaming or even just bullying um shaming or even just bullying um shaming or even just bullying um particularly sexreated bullying um uh particularly sexreated bullying um uh particularly sexreated bullying um uh for again for those who are gender for again for those who are gender for again for those who are gender non-conforming or again you know non-conforming or again you know non-conforming or again you know neuroatypical or neuroatypical or neuroatypical or Yeah, they're often Yeah, they're often Yeah, they're often parts of the picture. Um, again, they parts of the picture. Um, again, they parts of the picture. Um, again, they may have been exposed to some trans may have been exposed to some trans may have been exposed to some trans indoctrination and believe that all of indoctrination and believe that all of indoctrination and believe that all of their adolescent angst is because their adolescent angst is because their adolescent angst is because they're in the wrong body and and that they're in the wrong body and and that they're in the wrong body and and that therefore transitioning would solve therefore transitioning would solve therefore transitioning would solve everything. Um, everything. Um, everything. Um, um, yeah. So, or they may have been um, yeah. So, or they may have been um, yeah. So, or they may have been looking at pornography. I mean the one looking at pornography. I mean the one looking at pornography. I mean the one of the things that uh Abigail Shrier of the things that uh Abigail Shrier of the things that uh Abigail Shrier first alerted me to this in her book um first alerted me to this in her book um first alerted me to this in her book um um irreversible damage that pornography um irreversible damage that pornography um irreversible damage that pornography is scrambling the brains of kids and is scrambling the brains of kids and is scrambling the brains of kids and their psychosexual development their psychosexual development their psychosexual development >> terribly >> terribly >> terribly >> in terrible ways absolutely terrible

>> in terrible ways absolutely terrible >> in terrible ways absolutely terrible ways ways ways >> uh and not just girls I mean girls are >> uh and not just girls I mean girls are >> uh and not just girls I mean girls are horrified by what they're seeing but horrified by what they're seeing but horrified by what they're seeing but also boys are being made to feel also boys are being made to feel also boys are being made to feel completely uh inadequate and uncertain completely uh inadequate and uncertain completely uh inadequate and uncertain about Yeah. And so it's it's a scourge. about Yeah. And so it's it's a scourge. about Yeah. And so it's it's a scourge. Um and you know the kids who've been Um and you know the kids who've been Um and you know the kids who've been exposed to that and many are now getting exposed to that and many are now getting exposed to that and many are now getting exposed at 8 and nine and uh yeah well exposed at 8 and nine and uh yeah well exposed at 8 and nine and uh yeah well they may there may be all kinds of uh they may there may be all kinds of uh they may there may be all kinds of uh kind of deprogramming they need to to to kind of deprogramming they need to to to kind of deprogramming they need to to to to to to unscramble their thinking. And unscramble their thinking. And unscramble their thinking. And >> not to mention Joe Carter pointed this >> not to mention Joe Carter pointed this >> not to mention Joe Carter pointed this out in an article years ago at the out in an article years ago at the out in an article years ago at the Gospel Coalition. He simply observed Gospel Coalition. He simply observed Gospel Coalition. He simply observed that the rise of LGBT that the rise of LGBT that the rise of LGBT identities corresponded to a widespread identities corresponded to a widespread identities corresponded to a widespread rise in pornographic viewing and rise in pornographic viewing and rise in pornographic viewing and realizing that they were seeing sexual realizing that they were seeing sexual realizing that they were seeing sexual scenes depicted that are very different scenes depicted that are very different scenes depicted that are very different from what other people had predominantly from what other people had predominantly from what other people had predominantly been exposed to in the past and been exposed to in the past and been exposed to in the past and especially in formative years that especially in formative years that especially in formative years that normalized all sorts of different normalized all sorts of different normalized all sorts of different abnormal and immoral of course configur abnormal and immoral of course configur abnormal and immoral of course configur urations there. So, urations there. So, urations there. So, >> all of that, like you said, scrambles >> all of that, like you said, scrambles >> all of that, like you said, scrambles the brain in in ways that are the brain in in ways that are the brain in in ways that are >> um I mean, again, deeply deeply >> um I mean, again, deeply deeply >> um I mean, again, deeply deeply destructive, but they're important as destructive, but they're important as destructive, but they're important as part of the explanation of what's part of the explanation of what's part of the explanation of what's happening overall. I just have a couple happening overall. I just have a couple happening overall. I just have a couple couple more questions here where we've couple more questions here where we've couple more questions here where we've there's more that we could talk about there's more that we could talk about there's more that we could talk about and the book clearly covers a lot. The

and the book clearly covers a lot. The and the book clearly covers a lot. The book is again, the body God gives, a book is again, the body God gives, a book is again, the body God gives, a biblical response to transgender theory, biblical response to transgender theory, biblical response to transgender theory, written by Rob Smith. Um, this is this written by Rob Smith. Um, this is this written by Rob Smith. Um, this is this is a hard and extremely sensitive is a hard and extremely sensitive is a hard and extremely sensitive question, Rob, but I think it wouldn't question, Rob, but I think it wouldn't question, Rob, but I think it wouldn't be fair to not consider it in light of be fair to not consider it in light of be fair to not consider it in light of the reality of what we're seeing. Um, the reality of what we're seeing. Um, the reality of what we're seeing. Um, it's been a spate of acts of deadly it's been a spate of acts of deadly it's been a spate of acts of deadly violence, often deliberately aimed at violence, often deliberately aimed at violence, often deliberately aimed at Christians by people who identify as Christians by people who identify as Christians by people who identify as transgender. transgender. transgender. What do you make of that, if if [snorts] What do you make of that, if if [snorts] What do you make of that, if if [snorts] anything? When I first started working anything? When I first started working anything? When I first started working in this area, um, in this area, um, in this area, um, uh, my doctor, in fact, um, who's just uh, my doctor, in fact, um, who's just uh, my doctor, in fact, um, who's just very wise man, very, um, Christian man, very wise man, very, um, Christian man, very wise man, very, um, Christian man, uh, he he, he he said to me, and he'd uh, he he, he he said to me, and he'd uh, he he, he he said to me, and he'd been involved, I think, in, um, some been involved, I think, in, um, some been involved, I think, in, um, some early work with gays and lesbians, he early work with gays and lesbians, he early work with gays and lesbians, he said, "You realize what you you're going said, "You realize what you you're going said, "You realize what you you're going to be stepping on people's identities to be stepping on people's identities to be stepping on people's identities here, and uh, and here, and uh, and here, and uh, and you you will you you will you you will um some fairly savage reactions uh at um some fairly savage reactions uh at um some fairly savage reactions uh at certain points and and of course I have certain points and and of course I have certain points and and of course I have um although perhaps not very many um although perhaps not very many um although perhaps not very many thankfully but um thankfully but um thankfully but um so yeah when people feel that they're so yeah when people feel that they're so yeah when people feel that they're under threat and their identity is under under threat and their identity is under under threat and their identity is under threat or perhaps the identity of their threat or perhaps the identity of their threat or perhaps the identity of their loved ones um or even a so-called loved ones um or even a so-called loved ones um or even a so-called community that they uh feel they need to community that they uh feel they need to community that they uh feel they need to protect uh then yeah they can come out protect uh then yeah they can come out protect uh then yeah they can come out very savagely And

very savagely And very savagely And again if there are other again if there are other again if there are other issues of instability and and things issues of instability and and things issues of instability and and things going on then that can prove going on then that can prove going on then that can prove uh violent and catastrophic. So uh violent and catastrophic. So uh violent and catastrophic. So yeah, I in one sense any any of us are yeah, I in one sense any any of us are yeah, I in one sense any any of us are capable of that under the right capable of that under the right capable of that under the right circumstances, but we do we obviously circumstances, but we do we obviously circumstances, but we do we obviously have seen in recent times a a a number have seen in recent times a a a number have seen in recent times a a a number of you might say transrelated I mean the of you might say transrelated I mean the of you might say transrelated I mean the the the assassination of Charlie Kirk of the the assassination of Charlie Kirk of the the assassination of Charlie Kirk of course was um [clears throat] at least course was um [clears throat] at least course was um [clears throat] at least allegedly by um a man in a relationship allegedly by um a man in a relationship allegedly by um a man in a relationship with a trans woman or someone who was in with a trans woman or someone who was in with a trans woman or someone who was in the process of transition. ing. Um, the process of transition. ing. Um, the process of transition. ing. Um, so again, you've got an ally there. I so again, you've got an ally there. I so again, you've got an ally there. I suppose you might say, a trans ally suppose you might say, a trans ally suppose you might say, a trans ally rather than a trans person. But well, God willing, we want to see But well, God willing, we want to see more of this, but more of this, but more of this, but what we mustn't conclude, of course, is what we mustn't conclude, of course, is what we mustn't conclude, of course, is that everyone who even is a trans ally that everyone who even is a trans ally that everyone who even is a trans ally or or themselves transidentified is has or or themselves transidentified is has or or themselves transidentified is has got, you know, violent thoughts. But got, you know, violent thoughts. But got, you know, violent thoughts. But perhaps the deeper issue is that they perhaps the deeper issue is that they perhaps the deeper issue is that they may well be feeling greatly threatened.

may well be feeling greatly threatened. may well be feeling greatly threatened. Uh even if that's a false thought and so Uh even if that's a false thought and so Uh even if that's a false thought and so we just need to be sensitive to that. we just need to be sensitive to that. we just need to be sensitive to that. Yeah. So you people use this sort of Yeah. So you people use this sort of Yeah. So you people use this sort of wild language of you trans genocide and wild language of you trans genocide and wild language of you trans genocide and and um trans extermination and so on. Um and um trans extermination and so on. Um and um trans extermination and so on. Um and you I've even had people that say and you I've even had people that say and you I've even had people that say those sorts of things to me. you want to those sorts of things to me. you want to those sorts of things to me. you want to just erase all trans people. Um, just erase all trans people. Um, just erase all trans people. Um, and yeah, and sometimes you just can't and yeah, and sometimes you just can't and yeah, and sometimes you just can't reply at all. You need shouldn't reply. reply at all. You need shouldn't reply. reply at all. You need shouldn't reply. Sometimes it's a pearls before swine Sometimes it's a pearls before swine Sometimes it's a pearls before swine moment, but other times you need to say, moment, but other times you need to say, moment, but other times you need to say, "No, that's no, you're misunderstanding "No, that's no, you're misunderstanding "No, that's no, you're misunderstanding me." Um, me." Um, me." Um, uh, I'm wanting to, uh, help those who uh, I'm wanting to, uh, help those who uh, I'm wanting to, uh, help those who are finding it hard to be men and women are finding it hard to be men and women are finding it hard to be men and women to to, um, work out what that's about. to to, um, work out what that's about. to to, um, work out what that's about. and and realize that there is actually a and and realize that there is actually a and and realize that there is actually a better way which is got to do with better way which is got to do with better way which is got to do with embracing the body God gives. Uh which embracing the body God gives. Uh which embracing the body God gives. Uh which may be a difficult task uh under the cir may be a difficult task uh under the cir may be a difficult task uh under the cir their circumstances and may be a their circumstances and may be a their circumstances and may be a lifelong journey for them but that is lifelong journey for them but that is lifelong journey for them but that is the way as you quoted before from the the way as you quoted before from the the way as you quoted before from the book going with the grain of creation um book going with the grain of creation um book going with the grain of creation um toward the goal of new creation that toward the goal of new creation that toward the goal of new creation that that that's the path of of healing and that that's the path of of healing and that that's the path of of healing and integration and flourishing. You integration and flourishing. You integration and flourishing. You mentioned something about identity and mentioned something about identity and mentioned something about identity and identity being threatened. And identity being threatened. And identity being threatened. And when I've seen Tim Keller and others when I've seen Tim Keller and others when I've seen Tim Keller and others assess what is the issue beneath the assess what is the issue beneath the assess what is the issue beneath the issue beneath the issue, it is the the

issue beneath the issue, it is the the issue beneath the issue, it is the the existential weight of forming our existential weight of forming our existential weight of forming our identity ourselves. You alluded this identity ourselves. You alluded this identity ourselves. You alluded this earlier in expressive individualism with earlier in expressive individualism with earlier in expressive individualism with Carl Truman. And so the expressive part Carl Truman. And so the expressive part Carl Truman. And so the expressive part also is the need for others to affirm also is the need for others to affirm also is the need for others to affirm it. and then our human need to be able it. and then our human need to be able it. and then our human need to be able to bring together a community around to bring together a community around to bring together a community around that. So that. So that. So whatever we might be encountering in the whatever we might be encountering in the whatever we might be encountering in the manifestations the presentations of this manifestations the presentations of this manifestations the presentations of this dynamic underneath everything is a lost dynamic underneath everything is a lost dynamic underneath everything is a lost identity um or a search for identity and identity um or a search for identity and identity um or a search for identity and usually a search for identity apart from usually a search for identity apart from usually a search for identity apart from any reference to God. And I think that any reference to God. And I think that any reference to God. And I think that also makes a lot of sense of why so many also makes a lot of sense of why so many also makes a lot of sense of why so many adolescents are dealing with this adolescents are dealing with this adolescents are dealing with this because is that not the time of life because is that not the time of life because is that not the time of life when you're most wrestling with a lot of when you're most wrestling with a lot of when you're most wrestling with a lot of those questions about identity? Um can those questions about identity? Um can those questions about identity? Um can be a very scary, very overwhelming time be a very scary, very overwhelming time be a very scary, very overwhelming time uh for people there. And so, but it only uh for people there. And so, but it only uh for people there. And so, but it only makes the problem that much worse when makes the problem that much worse when makes the problem that much worse when we are cut off from the given biology, we are cut off from the given biology, we are cut off from the given biology, not to mention biblical answers, not to not to mention biblical answers, not to not to mention biblical answers, not to mention cultural, you know, the grain of mention cultural, you know, the grain of mention cultural, you know, the grain of culture through history. Uh, not to culture through history. Uh, not to culture through history. Uh, not to mention the the natural law revealed mention the the natural law revealed mention the the natural law revealed [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] in a Romans 1 kind of sense uh of of the in a Romans 1 kind of sense uh of of the in a Romans 1 kind of sense uh of of the reality of Genesis 1 um and two. So reality of Genesis 1 um and two. So reality of Genesis 1 um and two. So there's a lot going on, but underneath there's a lot going on, but underneath there's a lot going on, but underneath it is that basic problem of identity.

it is that basic problem of identity. it is that basic problem of identity. Now, last question I have here, Rob, I Now, last question I have here, Rob, I Now, last question I have here, Rob, I could ask many others, but we're already could ask many others, but we're already could ask many others, but we're already you've already been very generous with you've already been very generous with you've already been very generous with your time. Um, your time. Um, your time. Um, where what work do we still need from where what work do we still need from where what work do we still need from evangelicals about transgender theory? evangelicals about transgender theory? evangelicals about transgender theory? >> That's a very good question. And at the >> That's a very good question. And at the >> That's a very good question. And at the end of my book, I end of my book, I end of my book, I suggest that X place to go is is more um suggest that X place to go is is more um suggest that X place to go is is more um directly into the pastoral um domain. directly into the pastoral um domain. directly into the pastoral um domain. But what more work is there to do still But what more work is there to do still But what more work is there to do still in the theological and exoggetical in the theological and exoggetical in the theological and exoggetical domain? Um now there are still, you domain? Um now there are still, you domain? Um now there are still, you know, debates about particular passages. know, debates about particular passages. know, debates about particular passages. Um, I've just been sent an an article Um, I've just been sent an an article Um, I've just been sent an an article about arguing that um, about arguing that um, about arguing that um, uh, well, it it sounds like a rather uh, well, it it sounds like a rather uh, well, it it sounds like a rather crazy argument to me, but it's in a crazy argument to me, but it's in a crazy argument to me, but it's in a serious theological journey journal serious theological journey journal serious theological journey journal arguing that um, that we don't know arguing that um, that we don't know arguing that um, that we don't know whether God will raise us male and whether God will raise us male and whether God will raise us male and female or or at least um, we don't female or or at least um, we don't female or or at least um, we don't necessar the argument I think of the necessar the argument I think of the necessar the argument I think of the paper is God might raise a man who feels paper is God might raise a man who feels paper is God might raise a man who feels he should be a woman as a woman. Um, and he should be a woman as a woman. Um, and he should be a woman as a woman. Um, and if God might do [clears throat] that, if God might do [clears throat] that, if God might do [clears throat] that, then perhaps it does make it uh then perhaps it does make it uh then perhaps it does make it uh permissible to permissible to permissible to uh transition that man to living as a uh transition that man to living as a uh transition that man to living as a woman in this world. Yeah, that that woman in this world. Yeah, that that woman in this world. Yeah, that that that kind of argument.

that kind of argument. that kind of argument. >> That's strange. >> That's strange. >> That's strange. >> Um, now so there's just a need for >> Um, now so there's just a need for >> Um, now so there's just a need for ongoing responses to some of these ongoing responses to some of these ongoing responses to some of these curious and challenging arguments. curious and challenging arguments. curious and challenging arguments. Um, Um, Um, so there'll be there'll be further work so there'll be there'll be further work so there'll be there'll be further work needed along those lines. And so so I'm needed along those lines. And so so I'm needed along those lines. And so so I'm torn here between the fact that I tried torn here between the fact that I tried torn here between the fact that I tried to dig into as many as many areas as I to dig into as many as many areas as I to dig into as many as many areas as I could in the book and wasn't sort of could in the book and wasn't sort of could in the book and wasn't sort of immediately aware I'd left big holes. immediately aware I'd left big holes. immediately aware I'd left big holes. Um, but I also know that I've, you know, Um, but I also know that I've, you know, Um, but I also know that I've, you know, there's always more work to do. Um, there's always more work to do. Um, there's always more work to do. Um, hence your questions, a good one. Um but hence your questions, a good one. Um but hence your questions, a good one. Um but I do think it's at the area of I do think it's at the area of I do think it's at the area of implementation application uh pastoral implementation application uh pastoral implementation application uh pastoral practice that certainly that's where I practice that certainly that's where I practice that certainly that's where I want to go next and I'm working on a want to go next and I'm working on a want to go next and I'm working on a book already on that front. So yeah look book already on that front. So yeah look book already on that front. So yeah look I I is not the right response for a I I is not the right response for a I I is not the right response for a podcast but I want to take your question podcast but I want to take your question podcast but I want to take your question on notice and and ponder it. [laughter] on notice and and ponder it. [laughter] on notice and and ponder it. [laughter] >> No that I I think you did answer it. You >> No that I I think you did answer it. You >> No that I I think you did answer it. You said we need more practical work on how said we need more practical work on how said we need more practical work on how to how to work this out. I mean there to how to work this out. I mean there to how to work this out. I mean there will be new challenges.

will be new challenges. will be new challenges. There may be nuanced dimensions of the There may be nuanced dimensions of the There may be nuanced dimensions of the debate and and as it develops debate and and as it develops debate and and as it develops um just look at the last decade and how um just look at the last decade and how um just look at the last decade and how much has changed the rise and fall. much has changed the rise and fall. much has changed the rise and fall. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um of this of this theory. >> Um of this of this theory. >> Um of this of this theory. >> Yeah. But it it when when it rose it the >> Yeah. But it it when when it rose it the >> Yeah. But it it when when it rose it the foundations that already been laid that foundations that already been laid that foundations that already been laid that had happened decades ago and as it falls had happened decades ago and as it falls had happened decades ago and as it falls the underlying questions about identity the underlying questions about identity the underlying questions about identity formation in western culture those formation in western culture those formation in western culture those aren't going away. So those are going to aren't going away. So those are going to aren't going away. So those are going to be perennial challenges for us and we're be perennial challenges for us and we're be perennial challenges for us and we're going to need to work on those. going to need to work on those. going to need to work on those. >> Yeah. and and there is certainly work to >> Yeah. and and there is certainly work to >> Yeah. and and there is certainly work to be done on on questions of identity and be done on on questions of identity and be done on on questions of identity and um my friend Brian Rosner has written a um my friend Brian Rosner has written a um my friend Brian Rosner has written a couple of books on that front already couple of books on that front already couple of books on that front already and as have others. Um and as have others. Um and as have others. Um I I've got a piece I'm writing on the I I've got a piece I'm writing on the I I've got a piece I'm writing on the ethics of gender transitioning um or or ethics of gender transitioning um or or ethics of gender transitioning um or or at least arguing that it's not an at least arguing that it's not an at least arguing that it's not an ethical um path. Um the other area that ethical um path. Um the other area that ethical um path. Um the other area that I'm aware of actually now you see now I'm aware of actually now you see now I'm aware of actually now you see now you've got me thinking um uh I'm I I'm you've got me thinking um uh I'm I I'm you've got me thinking um uh I'm I I'm glad that there's kind of been an glad that there's kind of been an glad that there's kind of been an evangelical um recovery of natural law evangelical um recovery of natural law evangelical um recovery of natural law approaches but I'm also slightly nervous approaches but I'm also slightly nervous approaches but I'm also slightly nervous um that we are inadvertently kind of um that we are inadvertently kind of um that we are inadvertently kind of adopting a almost a um a Catholic adopting a almost a um a Catholic adopting a almost a um a Catholic methodology methodology methodology uh rather than seeing the need for uh rather than seeing the need for uh rather than seeing the need for scripture to reveal nature

scripture to reveal nature scripture to reveal nature uh to us. So we can't go to nature uh to us. So we can't go to nature uh to us. So we can't go to nature directly and at least well we we can but directly and at least well we we can but directly and at least well we we can but we we we don't know what we're reading we we we don't know what we're reading we we we don't know what we're reading uh without to use Calvin's metaphor uh without to use Calvin's metaphor uh without to use Calvin's metaphor putting on the putting on the glasses of putting on the putting on the glasses of putting on the putting on the glasses of the spectacles of scripture. So we need the spectacles of scripture. So we need the spectacles of scripture. So we need scripture to illuminate nature and scripture to illuminate nature and scripture to illuminate nature and creation rather than thinking we can creation rather than thinking we can creation rather than thinking we can just read off creation. just read off creation. just read off creation. um um unaded. um um unaded. um um unaded. >> Does that that make sense? >> Does that that make sense? >> Does that that make sense? >> Yeah. Well, that's that is a perennial >> Yeah. Well, that's that is a perennial >> Yeah. Well, that's that is a perennial question and it's one that I had asked question and it's one that I had asked question and it's one that I had asked you that I alluded to earlier in the you that I alluded to earlier in the you that I alluded to earlier in the question of simply how do you put the question of simply how do you put the question of simply how do you put the Old Testament and the New Testament Old Testament and the New Testament Old Testament and the New Testament together. Um, and a lot of that is not together. Um, and a lot of that is not together. Um, and a lot of that is not only valuable for the normative sense of only valuable for the normative sense of only valuable for the normative sense of how we teach our congregations, how we how we teach our congregations, how we how we teach our congregations, how we lead our congregations, but also in a lead our congregations, but also in a lead our congregations, but also in a situational sense, how do we argue for situational sense, how do we argue for situational sense, how do we argue for these issues? Um, and of course, one of these issues? Um, and of course, one of these issues? Um, and of course, one of the things that we've seen in the in the the things that we've seen in the in the the things that we've seen in the in the gay marriage debates and now the trans gay marriage debates and now the trans gay marriage debates and now the trans debates would be the way that Catholics debates would be the way that Catholics debates would be the way that Catholics have have adopted a lot of natural law have have adopted a lot of natural law have have adopted a lot of natural law theories as a way um, especially to theories as a way um, especially to theories as a way um, especially to integrate within a judicial framework to integrate within a judicial framework to integrate within a judicial framework to argue that these are not explicitly argue that these are not explicitly argue that these are not explicitly revelatory revelatory revelatory matters that depend on a particular matters that depend on a particular matters that depend on a particular particular set of scriptures, but in particular set of scriptures, but in particular set of scriptures, but in fact are known to all people. And that fact are known to all people. And that fact are known to all people. And that of course makes it easier to make the of course makes it easier to make the of course makes it easier to make the judicial argument. It also makes it judicial argument. It also makes it judicial argument. It also makes it easier to make the apologetic argument.

easier to make the apologetic argument. easier to make the apologetic argument. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> But you still run into some basic >> But you still run into some basic >> But you still run into some basic challenges such as well I mean the challenges such as well I mean the challenges such as well I mean the explicit teachings of Jesus that call us explicit teachings of Jesus that call us explicit teachings of Jesus that call us to a certain kind of more radical to a certain kind of more radical to a certain kind of more radical disciplehip than you might get from disciplehip than you might get from disciplehip than you might get from simply reading the grain of the culture simply reading the grain of the culture simply reading the grain of the culture and traditional societies. You also are and traditional societies. You also are and traditional societies. You also are prone potentially to run into a um a prone potentially to run into a um a prone potentially to run into a um a kind of cultural essentialism as it kind of cultural essentialism as it kind of cultural essentialism as it comes to masculinity and femininity comes to masculinity and femininity comes to masculinity and femininity >> that this is the way that we are always >> that this is the way that we are always >> that this is the way that we are always meant to be meant to be meant to be >> without a recognition of his cultural >> without a recognition of his cultural >> without a recognition of his cultural conditioning conditioning conditioning >> there. So at least that's how I see some >> there. So at least that's how I see some >> there. So at least that's how I see some of the potential tensions emerging. of the potential tensions emerging. of the potential tensions emerging. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a helpful comment >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a helpful comment >> Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a helpful comment and um and um and um yeah, certainly I think we want to you yeah, certainly I think we want to you yeah, certainly I think we want to you be very affirming of creation order and be very affirming of creation order and be very affirming of creation order and and see the value of these arguments and see the value of these arguments and see the value of these arguments >> and the persuasiveness of them. But just >> and the persuasiveness of them. But just >> and the persuasiveness of them. But just knowing that our epistemological knowing that our epistemological knowing that our epistemological certainty certainty certainty uh comes via scriptural confirmation uh comes via scriptural confirmation uh comes via scriptural confirmation um rather than simply via our own um rather than simply via our own um rather than simply via our own empirical kind of observation. Yeah.

empirical kind of observation. Yeah. empirical kind of observation. Yeah. Well, in uh in more than I mean in a Well, in uh in more than I mean in a Well, in uh in more than I mean in a good long interview, we've gotten a good long interview, we've gotten a good long interview, we've gotten a taste of what readers could hopefully taste of what readers could hopefully taste of what readers could hopefully get more of in the body God gives a get more of in the body God gives a get more of in the body God gives a biblical response to transgender theory biblical response to transgender theory biblical response to transgender theory written by my guest Rob Smith. Just written by my guest Rob Smith. Just written by my guest Rob Smith. Just really, really encouraging endorsements really, really encouraging endorsements really, really encouraging endorsements on this book and it lives up and and on this book and it lives up and and on this book and it lives up and and rewards the careful attention that the rewards the careful attention that the rewards the careful attention that the reader gives to it. Rob, thanks for reader gives to it. Rob, thanks for reader gives to it. Rob, thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. Been a great joining me on Gospel Bound. Been a great joining me on Gospel Bound. Been a great pleasure, Kong. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, [music] remember, when we're bound to [music] remember, when we're bound to [music] remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.