The Pastor and Friendships (with Garrett Kell) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 34]

We all feel how hard friendships are. We all feel how hard friendships are. There's lots of reasons that it can There's lots of reasons that it can There's lots of reasons that it can contribute to why we don't make the time contribute to why we don't make the time contribute to why we don't make the time for deepening those relationships. But I for deepening those relationships. But I for deepening those relationships. But I just want to say that part of the reason just want to say that part of the reason just want to say that part of the reason I'm I'm thankful for this conversation I'm I'm thankful for this conversation I'm I'm thankful for this conversation is I wanted to push us and those who is I wanted to push us and those who is I wanted to push us and those who listen toward, hey, I want to make time listen toward, hey, I want to make time listen toward, hey, I want to make time for friendships. for friendships. for friendships. [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the Nuts and Bolts of Ministry. I'm Matt Nuts and Bolts of Ministry. I'm Matt Nuts and Bolts of Ministry. I'm Matt Smithst. Smithst. Smithst. >> And I'm Luke Duncan. And we are joined >> And I'm Luke Duncan. And we are joined >> And I'm Luke Duncan. And we are joined by our friend Garrett Kell, pastor of by our friend Garrett Kell, pastor of by our friend Garrett Kell, pastor of Del Rey Baptist Church in Alexandria, Del Rey Baptist Church in Alexandria, Del Rey Baptist Church in Alexandria, Virginia to talk about a topic that uh Virginia to talk about a topic that uh Virginia to talk about a topic that uh sadly in our modern cultural moment uh sadly in our modern cultural moment uh sadly in our modern cultural moment uh is something that is really needed is something that is really needed is something that is really needed because the reality is that um because the reality is that um because the reality is that um loneliness has become a public health loneliness has become a public health loneliness has become a public health epidemic. Even the US surgeon general epidemic. Even the US surgeon general epidemic. Even the US surgeon general has declared loneliness an epidemic. We has declared loneliness an epidemic. We has declared loneliness an epidemic. We are in a relational state of emergency. are in a relational state of emergency. are in a relational state of emergency. So we want to think together for the So we want to think together for the So we want to think together for the next few minutes about this idea of the next few minutes about this idea of the next few minutes about this idea of the pastor and friendship. So let's just pastor and friendship. So let's just pastor and friendship. So let's just start with kind of the most basic start with kind of the most basic start with kind of the most basic question. Uh Garrett, why is it so question. Uh Garrett, why is it so question. Uh Garrett, why is it so important uh for a pastor to have important uh for a pastor to have important uh for a pastor to have friends?

friends? friends? >> Yeah. I mean you you talked about what's >> Yeah. I mean you you talked about what's >> Yeah. I mean you you talked about what's happening in our culture. Obviously we happening in our culture. Obviously we happening in our culture. Obviously we we're more connected than ever but more we're more connected than ever but more we're more connected than ever but more lonely. You know a lot of lonely. You know a lot of lonely. You know a lot of >> texting or just there's a distance there >> texting or just there's a distance there >> texting or just there's a distance there that's that's that's strange. But I that's that's that's strange. But I that's that's that's strange. But I think for pastors uh uniquely ministry think for pastors uh uniquely ministry think for pastors uh uniquely ministry can be a very isolating can be a very isolating can be a very isolating >> endeavor, right? So we're we're studying >> endeavor, right? So we're we're studying >> endeavor, right? So we're we're studying a lot. That's often done by ourselves. a lot. That's often done by ourselves. a lot. That's often done by ourselves. Um we are um leadership by by nature. I Um we are um leadership by by nature. I Um we are um leadership by by nature. I mean though we would hope to have a mean though we would hope to have a mean though we would hope to have a plurality of elders, leadership can be plurality of elders, leadership can be plurality of elders, leadership can be lonely. You're you're having to to kind lonely. You're you're having to to kind lonely. You're you're having to to kind of be a step ahead and all of that kind of be a step ahead and all of that kind of be a step ahead and all of that kind of stuff. of stuff. of stuff. There's things as a pastor that I know There's things as a pastor that I know There's things as a pastor that I know about a lot of people that I can't talk about a lot of people that I can't talk about a lot of people that I can't talk about to lots of people. So I I'm the about to lots of people. So I I'm the about to lots of people. So I I'm the steward of a lot of soul's secrets and steward of a lot of soul's secrets and steward of a lot of soul's secrets and many of those nobody else knows. Right? many of those nobody else knows. Right? many of those nobody else knows. Right? So there's there's a sense in which you So there's there's a sense in which you So there's there's a sense in which you feel very alone. feel very alone. feel very alone. Um which hopefully pushes you toward the Um which hopefully pushes you toward the Um which hopefully pushes you toward the Lord. But friendship is a gift from God Lord. But friendship is a gift from God Lord. But friendship is a gift from God that that enters into those those dark that that enters into those those dark that that enters into those those dark places and says, "Hey, you know what? I places and says, "Hey, you know what? I places and says, "Hey, you know what? I just I care about you." And there's just I care about you." And there's just I care about you." And there's something that happens when we're something that happens when we're something that happens when we're together that warms my heart and and as together that warms my heart and and as together that warms my heart and and as a as a friend of mine would say a as a friend of mine would say a as a friend of mine would say strengthens my spine in Jesus that helps strengthens my spine in Jesus that helps strengthens my spine in Jesus that helps me to have some courage to keep trusting me to have some courage to keep trusting me to have some courage to keep trusting keep going. I think we need we need keep going. I think we need we need keep going. I think we need we need somebody that we can cry with that we somebody that we can cry with that we somebody that we can cry with that we can just be like this is really hard.

can just be like this is really hard. can just be like this is really hard. Would you just pray for me and not worry Would you just pray for me and not worry Would you just pray for me and not worry whether they're going to use it against whether they're going to use it against whether they're going to use it against you or you know whatever it may be. Need you or you know whatever it may be. Need you or you know whatever it may be. Need to be able to have somebody you can just to be able to have somebody you can just to be able to have somebody you can just celebrate with. You know, I mean, I love celebrate with. You know, I mean, I love celebrate with. You know, I mean, I love being on a little text thread. Like, being on a little text thread. Like, being on a little text thread. Like, you're one of my buddies I can send you're one of my buddies I can send you're one of my buddies I can send stuff to and we can laugh about some stuff to and we can laugh about some stuff to and we can laugh about some stuff that you can't just talk about stuff that you can't just talk about stuff that you can't just talk about with everybody. Like, it's a to be able with everybody. Like, it's a to be able with everybody. Like, it's a to be able to have that. There's a there's a it's to have that. There's a there's a it's to have that. There's a there's a it's not a secret thing, but there's not a secret thing, but there's not a secret thing, but there's something that you share that's not for something that you share that's not for something that you share that's not for everybody that makes it special, right? everybody that makes it special, right? everybody that makes it special, right? And I think friendship is is a lot of And I think friendship is is a lot of And I think friendship is is a lot of those things mixed together as a good those things mixed together as a good those things mixed together as a good gift from God that we we all need. gift from God that we we all need. gift from God that we we all need. >> What would you add, Le just about the >> What would you add, Le just about the >> What would you add, Le just about the importance of friendships for a pastor? importance of friendships for a pastor? importance of friendships for a pastor? Well, a testimony first in in just that Well, a testimony first in in just that Well, a testimony first in in just that the Lord has been so kind to put really the Lord has been so kind to put really the Lord has been so kind to put really good friends in my life and really good good friends in my life and really good good friends in my life and really good Christian friends and really good pastor Christian friends and really good pastor Christian friends and really good pastor friends in my life. And so I do know a friends in my life. And so I do know a friends in my life. And so I do know a lot of pastors that don't have yeah lot of pastors that don't have yeah lot of pastors that don't have yeah >> those kinds of friendships. Sometimes >> those kinds of friendships. Sometimes >> those kinds of friendships. Sometimes it's because they don't seek them as it's because they don't seek them as it's because they don't seek them as much as they ought to and they have much as they ought to and they have much as they ought to and they have their own reasons for pulling back in their own reasons for pulling back in their own reasons for pulling back in and having a hard time trusting uh other and having a hard time trusting uh other and having a hard time trusting uh other brothers in the ministry. Sometimes it's brothers in the ministry. Sometimes it's brothers in the ministry. Sometimes it's because they're in ministerial because they're in ministerial because they're in ministerial situations geographically that makes it situations geographically that makes it situations geographically that makes it hard for them to have friendships. But hard for them to have friendships. But hard for them to have friendships. But the Lord has blessed me with those. And the Lord has blessed me with those. And the Lord has blessed me with those. And that has been one of the great that has been one of the great that has been one of the great happinesses of my life. And as Garrett happinesses of my life. And as Garrett happinesses of my life. And as Garrett just said, I I I like to be around just said, I I I like to be around just said, I I I like to be around people that are better than I am. And um people that are better than I am. And um people that are better than I am. And um I have I have I have >> Is that why you're hanging out with us?

>> Is that why you're hanging out with us? >> Is that why you're hanging out with us? >> Absolutely. I you know, you know, >> Absolutely. I you know, you know, >> Absolutely. I you know, you know, >> we already did an episode on the humble >> we already did an episode on the humble >> we already did an episode on the humble pastor. This is not pastor. This is not pastor. This is not >> I can point to to uh things in my circle >> I can point to to uh things in my circle >> I can point to to uh things in my circle of pastoral friendships where I I see of pastoral friendships where I I see of pastoral friendships where I I see things in a man. I wish I could be more things in a man. I wish I could be more things in a man. I wish I could be more like that. I wish I not in a jealous like that. I wish I not in a jealous like that. I wish I not in a jealous way, but in an appreciative way. I'm so way, but in an appreciative way. I'm so way, but in an appreciative way. I'm so I have a friend who is I have a friend who is I have a friend who is >> maybe the best personal evangelist that >> maybe the best personal evangelist that >> maybe the best personal evangelist that I've ever met. It just encourages me to I've ever met. It just encourages me to I've ever met. It just encourages me to watch him share the gospel. And I think watch him share the gospel. And I think watch him share the gospel. And I think I do learn things from him and I try to I do learn things from him and I try to I do learn things from him and I try to implement them in my life, but I'm not implement them in my life, but I'm not implement them in my life, but I'm not nearly as good at it as he is. And that nearly as good at it as he is. And that nearly as good at it as he is. And that doesn't discourage me. It encourages me. doesn't discourage me. It encourages me. doesn't discourage me. It encourages me. I'm thank God that there's somebody like I'm thank God that there's somebody like I'm thank God that there's somebody like that out there. And I have friends that that out there. And I have friends that that out there. And I have friends that are a lot smarter than I am and they do are a lot smarter than I am and they do are a lot smarter than I am and they do amazing scholarly things and I learn amazing scholarly things and I learn amazing scholarly things and I learn from that and benefit from that. That from that and benefit from that. That from that and benefit from that. That does not discourage me. It makes me does not discourage me. It makes me does not discourage me. It makes me happy. So, I love to be around people happy. So, I love to be around people happy. So, I love to be around people that have gifts that I don't have, that that have gifts that I don't have, that that have gifts that I don't have, that are serving the Lord in ways that I've are serving the Lord in ways that I've are serving the Lord in ways that I've not been as effective. I have a lot of not been as effective. I have a lot of not been as effective. I have a lot of friends who have seen more conversions friends who have seen more conversions friends who have seen more conversions in ministry. If I had if I have had to in ministry. If I had if I have had to in ministry. If I had if I have had to name my top five uh regrets in ministry, name my top five uh regrets in ministry, name my top five uh regrets in ministry, it would be I'm not sure I've been used it would be I'm not sure I've been used it would be I'm not sure I've been used as much as I would have liked to have as much as I would have liked to have as much as I would have liked to have been used to see people come to faith in been used to see people come to faith in been used to see people come to faith in Christ. But I have friends, man, have Christ. But I have friends, man, have Christ. But I have friends, man, have they been used in that way, and that they been used in that way, and that they been used in that way, and that encourages me. So, at one level, it's encourages me. So, at one level, it's encourages me. So, at one level, it's it's just great to be with other friends it's just great to be with other friends it's just great to be with other friends that have gifts and graces in their life that have gifts and graces in their life that have gifts and graces in their life and that have been displayed in their

and that have been displayed in their and that have been displayed in their ministries in ways that I've not had it ministries in ways that I've not had it ministries in ways that I've not had it in my own. But just that we're we're in my own. But just that we're we're in my own. But just that we're we're made for friendship and communion. God made for friendship and communion. God made for friendship and communion. God made us that way. And it is not a gift made us that way. And it is not a gift made us that way. And it is not a gift to be taken for granted. And it's not to be taken for granted. And it's not to be taken for granted. And it's not something that anybody can go without. something that anybody can go without. something that anybody can go without. All of us need to have friends. We're All of us need to have friends. We're All of us need to have friends. We're made that way. And even if you're a made that way. And even if you're a made that way. And even if you're a pastor and you're kind of you kind of pastor and you're kind of you kind of pastor and you're kind of you kind of feel off by yourself and you're a little feel off by yourself and you're a little feel off by yourself and you're a little afraid to step out into friendships, I'd afraid to step out into friendships, I'd afraid to step out into friendships, I'd encourage you to seek that. That's encourage you to seek that. That's encourage you to seek that. That's that's something we all ought to seek. that's something we all ought to seek. that's something we all ought to seek. My favorite biography of Augustine is My favorite biography of Augustine is My favorite biography of Augustine is Peter Brown's biography just called Peter Brown's biography just called Peter Brown's biography just called Augustine of Hippo. And he has a whole Augustine of Hippo. And he has a whole Augustine of Hippo. And he has a whole chapter on Augustine's friendships. It chapter on Augustine's friendships. It chapter on Augustine's friendships. It begins with a sentence, Augustine will begins with a sentence, Augustine will begins with a sentence, Augustine will always have friends. always have friends. always have friends. >> And then he tells the stories of his >> And then he tells the stories of his >> And then he tells the stories of his friendships and um you can see the way friendships and um you can see the way friendships and um you can see the way that Augustine delights in those that Augustine delights in those that Augustine delights in those friendships friendships friendships >> and you can see what it did for his >> and you can see what it did for his >> and you can see what it did for his life. And I crave that for every pastor.

life. And I crave that for every pastor. life. And I crave that for every pastor. Yeah. you know, you you can't dictate Yeah. you know, you you can't dictate Yeah. you know, you you can't dictate how many you're going to have, but Lord, how many you're going to have, but Lord, how many you're going to have, but Lord, give me a few friends that I can walk give me a few friends that I can walk give me a few friends that I can walk through life with. through life with. through life with. >> And in the four love, CS Lewis talks >> And in the four love, CS Lewis talks >> And in the four love, CS Lewis talks about how the ancients viewed of all the about how the ancients viewed of all the about how the ancients viewed of all the kinds of loves, the ancients viewed kinds of loves, the ancients viewed kinds of loves, the ancients viewed friendship love as the most noble form friendship love as the most noble form friendship love as the most noble form of love of love of love >> because the other kinds of loves kind of >> because the other kinds of loves kind of >> because the other kinds of loves kind of force themselves on you. So you think of force themselves on you. So you think of force themselves on you. So you think of family love that comes with a with an family love that comes with a with an family love that comes with a with an instinctual sense of obligation. You instinctual sense of obligation. You instinctual sense of obligation. You think of erotic or romantic love that think of erotic or romantic love that think of erotic or romantic love that kind of comes to you through your kind of comes to you through your kind of comes to you through your senses. Um but friendship love is senses. Um but friendship love is senses. Um but friendship love is deliberate. It's voluntary. It's a deliberate. It's voluntary. It's a deliberate. It's voluntary. It's a choice and therefore there's something choice and therefore there's something choice and therefore there's something inherently precious and valuable about inherently precious and valuable about inherently precious and valuable about it. Um I I'm just so blessed to have um it. Um I I'm just so blessed to have um it. Um I I'm just so blessed to have um a few different groups of brothers that a few different groups of brothers that a few different groups of brothers that I'm in constant communication with every I'm in constant communication with every I'm in constant communication with every single week. Uh whether over text or single week. Uh whether over text or single week. Uh whether over text or voice messages that are um in some kind voice messages that are um in some kind voice messages that are um in some kind of ministry and they can be sounding of ministry and they can be sounding of ministry and they can be sounding boards. We can be encouragements to one boards. We can be encouragements to one boards. We can be encouragements to one another. But also the Lord has been kind another. But also the Lord has been kind another. But also the Lord has been kind to give me friendships in my own church.

to give me friendships in my own church. to give me friendships in my own church. Um but I know that that's hard for a lot Um but I know that that's hard for a lot Um but I know that that's hard for a lot of pastors. Why? Why is that? and and of pastors. Why? Why is that? and and of pastors. Why? Why is that? and and let's just acknowledge the reality that let's just acknowledge the reality that let's just acknowledge the reality that it can be really difficult. It can be a it can be really difficult. It can be a it can be really difficult. It can be a vulnerable thing to open up your life um vulnerable thing to open up your life um vulnerable thing to open up your life um to to to the people that you know pay your the people that you know pay your the people that you know pay your salary. Um but it's also I think salary. Um but it's also I think salary. Um but it's also I think important to be known by those you're important to be known by those you're important to be known by those you're actually living with uh on a day-to-day actually living with uh on a day-to-day actually living with uh on a day-to-day basis. So talk just a bit about that basis. So talk just a bit about that basis. So talk just a bit about that dynamic of having friendships not only dynamic of having friendships not only dynamic of having friendships not only outside your church outside your church outside your church >> but even inside. man. Yeah, it it can >> but even inside. man. Yeah, it it can >> but even inside. man. Yeah, it it can get complex and it a lot of it depends get complex and it a lot of it depends get complex and it a lot of it depends on how healthy the the church is, right? on how healthy the the church is, right? on how healthy the the church is, right? So, I mean it it really So, I mean it it really So, I mean it it really every church is different. There's been every church is different. There's been every church is different. There's been different seasons for me um as a younger different seasons for me um as a younger different seasons for me um as a younger man. I think there were a lot of times I man. I think there were a lot of times I man. I think there were a lot of times I tried to to make sure there was no tried to to make sure there was no tried to to make sure there was no distance between me and the people uh distance between me and the people uh distance between me and the people uh that I I pastored in a way that I I that I I pastored in a way that I I that I I pastored in a way that I I wanted them to know I was normal and I wanted them to know I was normal and I wanted them to know I was normal and I could be their friends and we did a lot could be their friends and we did a lot could be their friends and we did a lot of hanging out and that kind of stuff. I of hanging out and that kind of stuff. I of hanging out and that kind of stuff. I do think at times I uh neglected some of do think at times I uh neglected some of do think at times I uh neglected some of the that there is a set of partners in a the that there is a set of partners in a the that there is a set of partners in a way that probably didn't help my way that probably didn't help my way that probably didn't help my pastoral relationship as as much. I was pastoral relationship as as much. I was pastoral relationship as as much. I was just a good friend who happened to be just a good friend who happened to be just a good friend who happened to be their pastor as well. Um and I think their pastor as well. Um and I think their pastor as well. Um and I think that's matured over the years. I've that's matured over the years. I've that's matured over the years. I've learned how to have still those those learned how to have still those those learned how to have still those those close relationships. So I mean Wednesday close relationships. So I mean Wednesday close relationships. So I mean Wednesday morning we got a group of guys who come morning we got a group of guys who come morning we got a group of guys who come over at 6 a.m. and we work out together over at 6 a.m. and we work out together over at 6 a.m. and we work out together and then we pray together and like those and then we pray together and like those and then we pray together and like those are um you know one of those other guys are um you know one of those other guys are um you know one of those other guys is an elder but the rest of them are is an elder but the rest of them are is an elder but the rest of them are not. I do want to try to to to bring not. I do want to try to to to bring not. I do want to try to to to bring down that that wall, but I think it's down that that wall, but I think it's down that that wall, but I think it's hard. Sometimes people feel like ah they

hard. Sometimes people feel like ah they hard. Sometimes people feel like ah they pastor doesn't have time or pastor pastor doesn't have time or pastor pastor doesn't have time or pastor probably maybe is going to find out probably maybe is going to find out probably maybe is going to find out something in my life or there could be something in my life or there could be something in my life or there could be lots of different different motivations lots of different different motivations lots of different different motivations there for people feeling distant and I there for people feeling distant and I there for people feeling distant and I think it's on us as leaders to to try to think it's on us as leaders to to try to think it's on us as leaders to to try to draw near to people. Uh the shepherd draw near to people. Uh the shepherd draw near to people. Uh the shepherd should come near to to the sheep. This should come near to to the sheep. This should come near to to the sheep. This is I think one of the reasons that is I think one of the reasons that is I think one of the reasons that hospitality is a qualification of an hospitality is a qualification of an hospitality is a qualification of an elder. Open your home, have people in elder. Open your home, have people in elder. Open your home, have people in and I think breaking down those walls is and I think breaking down those walls is and I think breaking down those walls is going to be really helpful. I think it's going to be really helpful. I think it's going to be really helpful. I think it's difficult even among like our elders. We difficult even among like our elders. We difficult even among like our elders. We have a a a good healthy elder board, the have a a a good healthy elder board, the have a a a good healthy elder board, the brothers are mature, but even then um brothers are mature, but even then um brothers are mature, but even then um we all feel how hard friendships are. We we all feel how hard friendships are. We we all feel how hard friendships are. We read books together regularly like it'll read books together regularly like it'll read books together regularly like it'll be on the reading list. So this we just be on the reading list. So this we just be on the reading list. So this we just finished one um in recent history, Made finished one um in recent history, Made finished one um in recent history, Made for Friendship by Drew Hunter. All the for Friendship by Drew Hunter. All the for Friendship by Drew Hunter. All the brothers talked about how they wept brothers talked about how they wept brothers talked about how they wept while they read it because there was while they read it because there was while they read it because there was there was a way that he helped us to see there was a way that he helped us to see there was a way that he helped us to see the beauty of friendship, the need for the beauty of friendship, the need for the beauty of friendship, the need for it. Um, even what you were talking about it. Um, even what you were talking about it. Um, even what you were talking about how different friends bring out how different friends bring out how different friends bring out different things and we we we through different things and we we we through different things and we we we through tears talked about how even the elder tears talked about how even the elder tears talked about how even the elder board felt different when different guys board felt different when different guys board felt different when different guys were gone were gone were gone >> because this brother, oh, remember when >> because this brother, oh, remember when >> because this brother, oh, remember when he was here and it was different because he was here and it was different because he was here and it was different because of this or that. And you you could feel of this or that. And you you could feel of this or that. And you you could feel it. And I mean, these are all pastors, it. And I mean, these are all pastors, it. And I mean, these are all pastors, you know, and we we you know, and we we you know, and we we busy. There's lots of reasons that it busy. There's lots of reasons that it busy. There's lots of reasons that it can contribute to why we don't make the can contribute to why we don't make the can contribute to why we don't make the time for deepening those relationships.

time for deepening those relationships. time for deepening those relationships. But I just want to say that part of the But I just want to say that part of the But I just want to say that part of the reason I'm I'm thankful for this reason I'm I'm thankful for this reason I'm I'm thankful for this conversation is I wanted to push us and conversation is I wanted to push us and conversation is I wanted to push us and those who listen toward, hey, I want to those who listen toward, hey, I want to those who listen toward, hey, I want to make time for friendships. I want to make time for friendships. I want to make time for friendships. I want to build into people. I want to open my build into people. I want to open my build into people. I want to open my life up more because it is a lifegiving life up more because it is a lifegiving life up more because it is a lifegiving gift. If you just think about David and gift. If you just think about David and gift. If you just think about David and Jonathan, how much David needed Jonathan Jonathan, how much David needed Jonathan Jonathan, how much David needed Jonathan like he loved him. He needed him. And we like he loved him. He needed him. And we like he loved him. He needed him. And we we need one another as we're we need one another as we're we need one another as we're >> we're forging these things in the midst >> we're forging these things in the midst >> we're forging these things in the midst of of fire often. Friendships for you of of fire often. Friendships for you of of fire often. Friendships for you obviously uh you you've been in obviously uh you you've been in obviously uh you you've been in different seasons. So you you were a different seasons. So you you were a different seasons. So you you were a pastor uh for over two decades uh in pastor uh for over two decades uh in pastor uh for over two decades uh in different churches. And then since then, different churches. And then since then, different churches. And then since then, of course, I'm sure uh friendship has of course, I'm sure uh friendship has of course, I'm sure uh friendship has looked a bit different in your life, but looked a bit different in your life, but looked a bit different in your life, but as you're training the next generation as you're training the next generation as you're training the next generation of ministers, what are you wanting to of ministers, what are you wanting to of ministers, what are you wanting to commend to their consideration? What are commend to their consideration? What are commend to their consideration? What are you wanting them to understand about you wanting them to understand about you wanting them to understand about friendship? Well, let let me say this is friendship? Well, let let me say this is friendship? Well, let let me say this is one area where this new phase that we're one area where this new phase that we're one area where this new phase that we're in in theological education and in in theological education and in in theological education and preparation for the ministry, we need to preparation for the ministry, we need to preparation for the ministry, we need to pause and have some reflection on it pause and have some reflection on it pause and have some reflection on it because one of the benefits of because one of the benefits of because one of the benefits of residential theological education has residential theological education has residential theological education has been been been >> very often men build a circle of >> very often men build a circle of >> very often men build a circle of friendships that will last for the rest friendships that will last for the rest friendships that will last for the rest of their lives in that context. And and of their lives in that context. And and of their lives in that context. And and if you're if you're doing things if you're if you're doing things if you're if you're doing things virtually, you it's harder to do that.

virtually, you it's harder to do that. virtually, you it's harder to do that. And so we we really try to compensate And so we we really try to compensate And so we we really try to compensate for that as best as we can. Some people for that as best as we can. Some people for that as best as we can. Some people are not doing residential theological are not doing residential theological are not doing residential theological education and more and more people are education and more and more people are education and more and more people are not doing formal theological education not doing formal theological education not doing formal theological education going into I'm talking about evangelical going into I'm talking about evangelical going into I'm talking about evangelical ministry in general. And that means ministry in general. And that means ministry in general. And that means they're going to have to be more they're going to have to be more they're going to have to be more deliberate about building their networks deliberate about building their networks deliberate about building their networks of pastoral friendships. That's one of pastoral friendships. That's one of pastoral friendships. That's one dynamic. Um, again, I I made friendships dynamic. Um, again, I I made friendships dynamic. Um, again, I I made friendships in seminary that many of them have in seminary that many of them have in seminary that many of them have continued on to be a blessing in my continued on to be a blessing in my continued on to be a blessing in my life. Early on, I got to know Mark De life. Early on, I got to know Mark De life. Early on, I got to know Mark De and Mark became a person that was and Mark became a person that was and Mark became a person that was constantly pulling other people into my constantly pulling other people into my constantly pulling other people into my life that would be friends, not as close life that would be friends, not as close life that would be friends, not as close as I am with Mark, but people that I as I am with Mark, but people that I as I am with Mark, but people that I valued and have enjoyed rubbing valued and have enjoyed rubbing valued and have enjoyed rubbing shoulders with. We we joke and say Mark shoulders with. We we joke and say Mark shoulders with. We we joke and say Mark is human velcro because he's always is human velcro because he's always is human velcro because he's always bringing people together. And of course bringing people together. And of course bringing people together. And of course the the seminary provides a certain the the seminary provides a certain the the seminary provides a certain network. I'm I'm I've got staff and network. I'm I'm I've got staff and network. I'm I'm I've got staff and faculty that I'm close with. I've got faculty that I'm close with. I've got faculty that I'm close with. I've got elders uh who are on the board of elders uh who are on the board of elders uh who are on the board of trustees that I'm close with. Um not trustees that I'm close with. Um not trustees that I'm close with. Um not just at a professional level, but at a just at a professional level, but at a just at a professional level, but at a relational friendship level. And I know relational friendship level. And I know relational friendship level. And I know a lot of guys that minister in relative a lot of guys that minister in relative a lot of guys that minister in relative solitude and isolation. I've never had solitude and isolation. I've never had solitude and isolation. I've never had to do that. I'm so thankful that I to do that. I'm so thankful that I to do that. I'm so thankful that I didn't do that. God has just put those didn't do that. God has just put those didn't do that. God has just put those kinds of people in my life.

kinds of people in my life. kinds of people in my life. >> I imagine there are many pastors who >> I imagine there are many pastors who >> I imagine there are many pastors who hear conversations like this and just hear conversations like this and just hear conversations like this and just grow discouraged because they don't grow discouraged because they don't grow discouraged because they don't disagree that friendship is really disagree that friendship is really disagree that friendship is really important. important. important. >> They're probably quite eloquent in >> They're probably quite eloquent in >> They're probably quite eloquent in teaching on that fact, teaching on that fact, teaching on that fact, >> but they are lonely >> but they are lonely >> but they are lonely >> and they don't see a lot of viable >> and they don't see a lot of viable >> and they don't see a lot of viable options right in front of them options right in front of them options right in front of them >> for meaningful friends. So, uh, Garrett, >> for meaningful friends. So, uh, Garrett, >> for meaningful friends. So, uh, Garrett, what would you say to the pastor who's what would you say to the pastor who's what would you say to the pastor who's listening and is feeling isolated and listening and is feeling isolated and listening and is feeling isolated and doesn't really know, uh, what to do or doesn't really know, uh, what to do or doesn't really know, uh, what to do or where to go? where to go? where to go? >> Yeah. I think the first thing you want >> Yeah. I think the first thing you want >> Yeah. I think the first thing you want to do is you want to pray. Anytime I to do is you want to pray. Anytime I to do is you want to pray. Anytime I move somewhere, move somewhere, move somewhere, I pray one of the first prayers is God I pray one of the first prayers is God I pray one of the first prayers is God give me a good friend there. give me a good friend there. give me a good friend there. Uh, friendship is a gift gift from the Uh, friendship is a gift gift from the Uh, friendship is a gift gift from the Lord. And I think you want to pray that Lord. And I think you want to pray that Lord. And I think you want to pray that God would raise up somebody to be to be God would raise up somebody to be to be God would raise up somebody to be to be to be your buddy. Um so you really want to be your buddy. Um so you really want to be your buddy. Um so you really want to you want to pray for that. I think to you want to pray for that. I think to you want to pray for that. I think secondly is um be willing for God to secondly is um be willing for God to secondly is um be willing for God to provide a friend that might be outside provide a friend that might be outside provide a friend that might be outside of what you would expect. So I could of what you would expect. So I could of what you would expect. So I could look through different seasons. There look through different seasons. There look through different seasons. There are people that God brought in. I was are people that God brought in. I was are people that God brought in. I was like, you know, I didn't think we'd end like, you know, I didn't think we'd end like, you know, I didn't think we'd end up being close, but you know, the Lord up being close, but you know, the Lord up being close, but you know, the Lord really gave a sweet sort of surprised really gave a sweet sort of surprised really gave a sweet sort of surprised gift in there. So, I think one of the gift in there. So, I think one of the gift in there. So, I think one of the the things we can do is sometimes be the things we can do is sometimes be the things we can do is sometimes be looking for a certain kind of person all looking for a certain kind of person all looking for a certain kind of person all the time. And I just think who is the the time. And I just think who is the the time. And I just think who is the Lord providing for you? Um, and and look Lord providing for you? Um, and and look Lord providing for you? Um, and and look who might be there there. And this is who might be there there. And this is who might be there there. And this is where again opening up your life and where again opening up your life and where again opening up your life and inviting people in, spending time inviting people in, spending time inviting people in, spending time together, that's where things will begin together, that's where things will begin together, that's where things will begin to resonate, whether it be and not just,

to resonate, whether it be and not just, to resonate, whether it be and not just, you know, ministry things. You can do you know, ministry things. You can do you know, ministry things. You can do Bible studies together, those kinds of Bible studies together, those kinds of Bible studies together, those kinds of things, but also um, you know, do you things, but also um, you know, do you things, but also um, you know, do you like fishing? Who else likes to go like fishing? Who else likes to go like fishing? Who else likes to go fishing? Do you like to play sports? Who fishing? Do you like to play sports? Who fishing? Do you like to play sports? Who else likes to do that? whoever you know else likes to do that? whoever you know else likes to do that? whoever you know and like begin inviting people in. I do and like begin inviting people in. I do and like begin inviting people in. I do think if there's old friends uh that you think if there's old friends uh that you think if there's old friends uh that you have from other places, try to keep that have from other places, try to keep that have from other places, try to keep that that alive, especially if you're very that alive, especially if you're very that alive, especially if you're very isolated. Um and whether you know I have isolated. Um and whether you know I have isolated. Um and whether you know I have some friends who I I don't personally do some friends who I I don't personally do some friends who I I don't personally do this, but they every year have an annual this, but they every year have an annual this, but they every year have an annual retreat where these buddies go and they retreat where these buddies go and they retreat where these buddies go and they hang out and they do this for like three hang out and they do this for like three hang out and they do this for like three three days or whatever it is and they three days or whatever it is and they three days or whatever it is and they share life together and all this and share life together and all this and share life together and all this and it's a real rejuvenating sort of of time it's a real rejuvenating sort of of time it's a real rejuvenating sort of of time for them. So, prayerfully consider how for them. So, prayerfully consider how for them. So, prayerfully consider how you can cultivate old friendships to you can cultivate old friendships to you can cultivate old friendships to keep those things alive. keep those things alive. keep those things alive. >> Um, it's going to look different for >> Um, it's going to look different for >> Um, it's going to look different for everybody, but I think you should pray, everybody, but I think you should pray, everybody, but I think you should pray, "God, give me a good friend." And that's "God, give me a good friend." And that's "God, give me a good friend." And that's been that's been sweet for me. been that's been sweet for me. been that's been sweet for me. >> Amen. I know one thing that I've tried >> Amen. I know one thing that I've tried >> Amen. I know one thing that I've tried to do over the years and this can to do over the years and this can to do over the years and this can backfire so but uh hasn't for me so far backfire so but uh hasn't for me so far backfire so but uh hasn't for me so far is when I have opportunity to hire I do is when I have opportunity to hire I do is when I have opportunity to hire I do want to prayerfully think is there want to prayerfully think is there want to prayerfully think is there somebody who's really lifegiving that I somebody who's really lifegiving that I somebody who's really lifegiving that I respect in the Lord who who would be a respect in the Lord who who would be a respect in the Lord who who would be a good friend that could come and partner good friend that could come and partner good friend that could come and partner um and that has been sweet for me. I um and that has been sweet for me. I um and that has been sweet for me. I mean if you look at our pastoral staff mean if you look at our pastoral staff mean if you look at our pastoral staff right now they're all they're all right now they're all they're all right now they're all they're all friends of mine which which could be friends of mine which which could be friends of mine which which could be viewed as favoritism. And I think viewed as favoritism. And I think viewed as favoritism. And I think there's a way to do that that you set there's a way to do that that you set there's a way to do that that you set yourself up for destruction. So, you're yourself up for destruction. So, you're yourself up for destruction. So, you're not just trying to hire a bunch of not just trying to hire a bunch of not just trying to hire a bunch of yesmen, but they're all so they bring yesmen, but they're all so they bring yesmen, but they're all so they bring everything to the table that I don't everything to the table that I don't everything to the table that I don't have. Yeah.

have. Yeah. have. Yeah. >> And I respect them. They love me and are >> And I respect them. They love me and are >> And I respect them. They love me and are not impressed with me and we we trust not impressed with me and we we trust not impressed with me and we we trust each other. And that's been such a sweet each other. And that's been such a sweet each other. And that's been such a sweet gift gift gift >> and it's worth the risk. There's been >> and it's worth the risk. There's been >> and it's worth the risk. There's been some hard things in that, but it's it's some hard things in that, but it's it's some hard things in that, but it's it's worth the risk. worth the risk. worth the risk. >> I agree. I when I came to First Press, I >> I agree. I when I came to First Press, I >> I agree. I when I came to First Press, I didn't choose my staff. The staff was didn't choose my staff. The staff was didn't choose my staff. The staff was already there. And I and and I had some already there. And I and and I had some already there. And I and and I had some men there immediately that were good to men there immediately that were good to men there immediately that were good to me. Interestingly, older older men. The me. Interestingly, older older men. The me. Interestingly, older older men. The Lord has always put older men in my life Lord has always put older men in my life Lord has always put older men in my life that blessed me uh gave me wisdom, kept that blessed me uh gave me wisdom, kept that blessed me uh gave me wisdom, kept me from stepping into potholes. Uh and me from stepping into potholes. Uh and me from stepping into potholes. Uh and and I had that immediately. But as we and I had that immediately. But as we and I had that immediately. But as we added as as people retired or moved on added as as people retired or moved on added as as people retired or moved on and as we added staff, it was my and as we added staff, it was my and as we added staff, it was my aspiration that all the ministers be aspiration that all the ministers be aspiration that all the ministers be friends. That look, there are some friends. That look, there are some friends. That look, there are some pastors, especially of large staff pastors, especially of large staff pastors, especially of large staff church, that don't want their their church, that don't want their their church, that don't want their their staff to be friends. And I think that's staff to be friends. And I think that's staff to be friends. And I think that's incredibly unhelpful uh and unhealthy. incredibly unhelpful uh and unhealthy. incredibly unhelpful uh and unhealthy. Uh I wanted us to be friends Uh I wanted us to be friends Uh I wanted us to be friends >> as a self-protecting mechanism.

>> as a self-protecting mechanism. >> as a self-protecting mechanism. >> Yeah. I think I think it's, you know, I >> Yeah. I think I think it's, you know, I >> Yeah. I think I think it's, you know, I I always watch is a is a guy willing to I always watch is a is a guy willing to I always watch is a is a guy willing to hire somebody that's better than he is hire somebody that's better than he is hire somebody that's better than he is at something. at something. at something. >> Uh because insecurity is one of the >> Uh because insecurity is one of the >> Uh because insecurity is one of the worst things in ministry. If you're worst things in ministry. If you're worst things in ministry. If you're jealous Yeah. of somebody who's better jealous Yeah. of somebody who's better jealous Yeah. of somebody who's better than you are at when if if I can just than you are at when if if I can just than you are at when if if I can just tell this story, I when when I came to tell this story, I when when I came to tell this story, I when when I came to First Press, I was handling all the First Press, I was handling all the First Press, I was handling all the preaching and that was five sermons a preaching and that was five sermons a preaching and that was five sermons a week. Sunday morning, Sunday evening, week. Sunday morning, Sunday evening, week. Sunday morning, Sunday evening, Wednesday night, and then always, as Wednesday night, and then always, as Wednesday night, and then always, as we've talked about, I I I would had a we've talked about, I I I would had a we've talked about, I I I would had a funeral and a and a wedding. So, I had funeral and a and a wedding. So, I had funeral and a and a wedding. So, I had five preps a week. It was killing me five preps a week. It was killing me five preps a week. It was killing me because I had nothing in my bag. I had because I had nothing in my bag. I had because I had nothing in my bag. I had no I I was coming as an associate no I I was coming as an associate no I I was coming as an associate pastor, assistant pastor. I I'd preached pastor, assistant pastor. I I'd preached pastor, assistant pastor. I I'd preached a little bit. I didn't have a bunch of a little bit. I didn't have a bunch of a little bit. I didn't have a bunch of sermon series that I could pull out and sermon series that I could pull out and sermon series that I could pull out and warm up and repreach. I was they were warm up and repreach. I was they were warm up and repreach. I was they were all new preps. all new preps. all new preps. >> And so I asked my dear friend Derek >> And so I asked my dear friend Derek >> And so I asked my dear friend Derek Thomas if he would join the ministerial Thomas if he would join the ministerial Thomas if he would join the ministerial staff as the minister of teaching and staff as the minister of teaching and staff as the minister of teaching and share the the preaching load at the share the the preaching load at the share the the preaching load at the church. And um and I knew there were church. And um and I knew there were church. And um and I knew there were going to be people that liked Derek's going to be people that liked Derek's going to be people that liked Derek's preaching better than mine. I I liked preaching better than mine. I I liked preaching better than mine. I I liked Derek's preaching better than mine. And Derek's preaching better than mine. And Derek's preaching better than mine. And there were people that liked Derek's there were people that liked Derek's there were people that liked Derek's preaching better than mine. And Derek preaching better than mine. And Derek preaching better than mine. And Derek never used that against me. And I I never used that against me. And I I never used that against me. And I I never resented that in Derek. And it never resented that in Derek. And it never resented that in Derek. And it blessed the congregation. And what kept blessed the congregation. And what kept blessed the congregation. And what kept that going was our friendship. I mean, that going was our friendship. I mean, that going was our friendship. I mean, we just genuinely loved one another. And we just genuinely loved one another. And we just genuinely loved one another. And a win for Derek was a win for me. And he

a win for Derek was a win for me. And he a win for Derek was a win for me. And he knew that a win for me was a win for knew that a win for me was a win for knew that a win for me was a win for him. And so the friendship made that him. And so the friendship made that him. And so the friendship made that work in that setting. And so I I just work in that setting. And so I I just work in that setting. And so I I just think it's good to have honest think it's good to have honest think it's good to have honest friendships where you respect one friendships where you respect one friendships where you respect one another and a win is a win for the whole another and a win is a win for the whole another and a win is a win for the whole team. It's about serving the team. It's about serving the team. It's about serving the congregation. It's about serving the congregation. It's about serving the congregation. It's about serving the Lord. It's not my church. It's Jesus's Lord. It's not my church. It's Jesus's Lord. It's not my church. It's Jesus's church. I'm an undersheperd. church. I'm an undersheperd. church. I'm an undersheperd. More gifted undersheperds alongside of More gifted undersheperds alongside of More gifted undersheperds alongside of me is only going to bless my people me is only going to bless my people me is only going to bless my people more. So um that that friendship dynamic more. So um that that friendship dynamic more. So um that that friendship dynamic was really good uh for us. pastors can was really good uh for us. pastors can was really good uh for us. pastors can look to their elders. They can look to look to their elders. They can look to look to their elders. They can look to other pastors and even people in their other pastors and even people in their other pastors and even people in their congregation to fill some of those congregation to fill some of those congregation to fill some of those friendship needs. It can be tricky. Um I friendship needs. It can be tricky. Um I friendship needs. It can be tricky. Um I I I I saw four or five young guys in the I I I saw four or five young guys in the I I I saw four or five young guys in the congregation that I could be friends congregation that I could be friends congregation that I could be friends with and sort of mentor in a disciplehip with and sort of mentor in a disciplehip with and sort of mentor in a disciplehip setting and they became really good setting and they became really good setting and they became really good friends. Four of them still to this day friends. Four of them still to this day friends. Four of them still to this day walk with me regularly in everything in walk with me regularly in everything in walk with me regularly in everything in life. And um I knew that, okay, that life. And um I knew that, okay, that life. And um I knew that, okay, that could create some jealousy. Oh, Lian's could create some jealousy. Oh, Lian's could create some jealousy. Oh, Lian's spending more time with X, Y, and Z than spending more time with X, Y, and Z than spending more time with X, Y, and Z than he is with me. But my elders understood he is with me. But my elders understood he is with me. But my elders understood he's got to have a smaller circle of he's got to have a smaller circle of he's got to have a smaller circle of friends that he gets with. And of friends that he gets with. And of friends that he gets with. And of course, not neglecting the rest of the course, not neglecting the rest of the course, not neglecting the rest of the congregation or the rest of the elders congregation or the rest of the elders congregation or the rest of the elders or officers, but that was really good or officers, but that was really good or officers, but that was really good for me to have some people inside the for me to have some people inside the for me to have some people inside the the church that I had those kinds of the church that I had those kinds of the church that I had those kinds of friendship with and then pastors outside friendship with and then pastors outside friendship with and then pastors outside of the church as well as the pastors on

of the church as well as the pastors on of the church as well as the pastors on staff of the church. staff of the church. staff of the church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think especially when it comes to >> And I think especially when it comes to >> And I think especially when it comes to cultivating friendships with our fellow cultivating friendships with our fellow cultivating friendships with our fellow elders, um it can be easy to only talk elders, um it can be easy to only talk elders, um it can be easy to only talk about work stuff if you're not about work stuff if you're not about work stuff if you're not intentional. So, we start every elders intentional. So, we start every elders intentional. So, we start every elders meeting by, you know, spending a fair meeting by, you know, spending a fair meeting by, you know, spending a fair bit of time doing personal updates and bit of time doing personal updates and bit of time doing personal updates and trying to be open and transparent with trying to be open and transparent with trying to be open and transparent with one another and praying for one another. one another and praying for one another. one another and praying for one another. And often that's the spiritually And often that's the spiritually And often that's the spiritually sweetest time um together. And it it sweetest time um together. And it it sweetest time um together. And it it kind of launches us into then praying kind of launches us into then praying kind of launches us into then praying for the sheep and caring for the sheep. for the sheep and caring for the sheep. for the sheep and caring for the sheep. But But But >> if we don't build that in, >> if we don't build that in, >> if we don't build that in, >> it's so easy to just rush to business. >> it's so easy to just rush to business. >> it's so easy to just rush to business. >> Straight to business. So, how um how do >> Straight to business. So, how um how do >> Straight to business. So, how um how do you Garrett uh foster those friendships you Garrett uh foster those friendships you Garrett uh foster those friendships with your fellow leaders in a way where with your fellow leaders in a way where with your fellow leaders in a way where you are um getting to know one another, you are um getting to know one another, you are um getting to know one another, encouraging one another in the Lord, and encouraging one another in the Lord, and encouraging one another in the Lord, and not just talking about agenda items. not just talking about agenda items. not just talking about agenda items. >> Yeah. And I'll say there's different >> Yeah. And I'll say there's different >> Yeah. And I'll say there's different seasons I've done that better than than seasons I've done that better than than seasons I've done that better than than others, you know. Um first of all, one others, you know. Um first of all, one others, you know. Um first of all, one of the things we we do as an elder board of the things we we do as an elder board of the things we we do as an elder board I instituted as soon as I got there was I instituted as soon as I got there was I instituted as soon as I got there was an elder retreat. Um, for us it's it's an elder retreat. Um, for us it's it's an elder retreat. Um, for us it's it's turned into a two a twoight event which turned into a two a twoight event which turned into a two a twoight event which is, you know, I say no to some speaking is, you know, I say no to some speaking is, you know, I say no to some speaking things or whatever else so I can say yes things or whatever else so I can say yes things or whatever else so I can say yes to this. It's it's my favorite thing to this. It's it's my favorite thing to this. It's it's my favorite thing that I do every year because we go we go that I do every year because we go we go that I do every year because we go we go fishing. We'll go play some basketball.

fishing. We'll go play some basketball. fishing. We'll go play some basketball. Those who are able uh we will um you Those who are able uh we will um you Those who are able uh we will um you know just grill out together. We'll know just grill out together. We'll know just grill out together. We'll talk. It's all personal. And then at the talk. It's all personal. And then at the talk. It's all personal. And then at the end we have a little thing called you end we have a little thing called you end we have a little thing called you know the rabbit board where you can you know the rabbit board where you can you know the rabbit board where you can you can write down whatever rabbit trail you can write down whatever rabbit trail you can write down whatever rabbit trail you think we need to go to at the end and think we need to go to at the end and think we need to go to at the end and we'll have a little session for business we'll have a little session for business we'll have a little session for business stuff. But almost the entire thing is stuff. But almost the entire thing is stuff. But almost the entire thing is how's your soul, how's your life, all how's your soul, how's your life, all how's your soul, how's your life, all that. It's the sweetest, most that. It's the sweetest, most that. It's the sweetest, most life-giving thing that we do. So, I we life-giving thing that we do. So, I we life-giving thing that we do. So, I we try and build that into the elder board try and build that into the elder board try and build that into the elder board and that that really helps um a lot. and that that really helps um a lot. and that that really helps um a lot. Outside of that, um you know, I've Outside of that, um you know, I've Outside of that, um you know, I've coached uh basketball and soccer teams coached uh basketball and soccer teams coached uh basketball and soccer teams with my kids with other elders and their with my kids with other elders and their with my kids with other elders and their kids. So, we try and rope those things kids. So, we try and rope those things kids. So, we try and rope those things in together. So, we're doing normal in together. So, we're doing normal in together. So, we're doing normal normal things together like that. I've normal things together like that. I've normal things together like that. I've gone vacationing with some elders uh and gone vacationing with some elders uh and gone vacationing with some elders uh and their families and that kind of stuff. their families and that kind of stuff. their families and that kind of stuff. So there's ways that we can bring people So there's ways that we can bring people So there's ways that we can bring people along and you want to you want to create along and you want to you want to create along and you want to you want to create space for that. I think you also want to space for that. I think you also want to space for that. I think you also want to you can help lead the elder board with you can help lead the elder board with you can help lead the elder board with saying, "Hey guys, not everybody's going saying, "Hey guys, not everybody's going saying, "Hey guys, not everybody's going to be able to have the same sort of to be able to have the same sort of to be able to have the same sort of relationships here." relationships here." relationships here." >> So we don't need to be jealous of one >> So we don't need to be jealous of one >> So we don't need to be jealous of one another. Like there's some brothers on another. Like there's some brothers on another. Like there's some brothers on our elder board who who they spend time our elder board who who they spend time our elder board who who they spend time together and they just have a great together and they just have a great together and they just have a great time. I'm like, "Man, I wish I could do time. I'm like, "Man, I wish I could do time. I'm like, "Man, I wish I could do that." And it just that." And it just that." And it just >> I think we need to learn to do in those >> I think we need to learn to do in those >> I think we need to learn to do in those instances is praise God. When you see instances is praise God. When you see instances is praise God. When you see something that you're envious of, ask something that you're envious of, ask something that you're envious of, ask God to help you praise him that they've God to help you praise him that they've God to help you praise him that they've gotten that good gift and celebrate gotten that good gift and celebrate gotten that good gift and celebrate that. And then you can turn it into a that. And then you can turn it into a that. And then you can turn it into a Lord help me to be a better friend, you Lord help me to be a better friend, you Lord help me to be a better friend, you know, and and sometimes you can try know, and and sometimes you can try know, and and sometimes you can try really hard and it's just not clicking really hard and it's just not clicking really hard and it's just not clicking and you just whatever you're missing and you just whatever you're missing and you just whatever you're missing from others, the Lord has to be it for from others, the Lord has to be it for from others, the Lord has to be it for you and he's intentionally withholding you and he's intentionally withholding you and he's intentionally withholding it so that you'll draw near to him and it so that you'll draw near to him and it so that you'll draw near to him and all that kind of stuff. But he will he all that kind of stuff. But he will he all that kind of stuff. But he will he will give those sorts of of of will give those sorts of of of will give those sorts of of of friendship. So anyway I can incorporate friendship. So anyway I can incorporate friendship. So anyway I can incorporate normal life. I think also elders wives

normal life. I think also elders wives normal life. I think also elders wives are very lonely often times as well. So are very lonely often times as well. So are very lonely often times as well. So there's ways like one of the one of the there's ways like one of the one of the there's ways like one of the one of the sisters on our um elder board, she's not sisters on our um elder board, she's not sisters on our um elder board, she's not on the elder board, but you know, one of on the elder board, but you know, one of on the elder board, but you know, one of the wives of the brothers who are, the wives of the brothers who are, the wives of the brothers who are, they'll have something on nights, we they'll have something on nights, we they'll have something on nights, we have elder board uh meetings where the have elder board uh meetings where the have elder board uh meetings where the sisters can go over there and hang out. sisters can go over there and hang out. sisters can go over there and hang out. You know, there's kids everywhere and You know, there's kids everywhere and You know, there's kids everywhere and there's all kind of stuff, but they're there's all kind of stuff, but they're there's all kind of stuff, but they're together. Um and so we want to try and together. Um and so we want to try and together. Um and so we want to try and always be mindful of how can we do more always be mindful of how can we do more always be mindful of how can we do more more things together outside of the more things together outside of the more things together outside of the office and talk about just how are you, office and talk about just how are you, office and talk about just how are you, how's your family. So I think one of the how's your family. So I think one of the how's your family. So I think one of the things talking about how their soul is things talking about how their soul is things talking about how their soul is and how their family is that can usually and how their family is that can usually and how their family is that can usually fill a whole lot of time. fill a whole lot of time. fill a whole lot of time. >> Talk more about the dynamic with elders >> Talk more about the dynamic with elders >> Talk more about the dynamic with elders wives and in particular the the lead wives and in particular the the lead wives and in particular the the lead pastor's wife. Um our former multimedia pastor's wife. Um our former multimedia pastor's wife. Um our former multimedia director Kendra was recently at a director Kendra was recently at a director Kendra was recently at a gathering for seminary friends and she gathering for seminary friends and she gathering for seminary friends and she said that basically all the pastor's said that basically all the pastor's said that basically all the pastor's wives were in tears because of how wives were in tears because of how wives were in tears because of how lonely and challenging friendships have lonely and challenging friendships have lonely and challenging friendships have been. Yeah. been. Yeah. been. Yeah. >> Um you both of you have quite a bit of >> Um you both of you have quite a bit of >> Um you both of you have quite a bit of ministry experience. You've you've ministry experience. You've you've ministry experience. You've you've probably encountered this dynamic in probably encountered this dynamic in probably encountered this dynamic in seasons with your own wives, but seasons with your own wives, but seasons with your own wives, but certainly in the lives of other elders certainly in the lives of other elders certainly in the lives of other elders and and their wives. What wisdom would and and their wives. What wisdom would and and their wives. What wisdom would you commend into the tricky uh dynamics you commend into the tricky uh dynamics you commend into the tricky uh dynamics of a pastor's wife friendship?

of a pastor's wife friendship? of a pastor's wife friendship? >> Again, there have been different seasons >> Again, there have been different seasons >> Again, there have been different seasons and different sisters who are involved and different sisters who are involved and different sisters who are involved in that orbit that it changes all the in that orbit that it changes all the in that orbit that it changes all the time. It's an ecosystem that's always time. It's an ecosystem that's always time. It's an ecosystem that's always always changing. But I think the things always changing. But I think the things always changing. But I think the things we want to do is we want to pray for our we want to do is we want to pray for our we want to do is we want to pray for our wives that God would give them good wives that God would give them good wives that God would give them good friends. And whether they be friends friends. And whether they be friends friends. And whether they be friends with one another or friends with other with one another or friends with other with one another or friends with other sisters, I don't care. That was one of sisters, I don't care. That was one of sisters, I don't care. That was one of the first things I told the church the first things I told the church the first things I told the church whenever they were interviewing me was whenever they were interviewing me was whenever they were interviewing me was like, "My wife, I just want you to know, like, "My wife, I just want you to know, like, "My wife, I just want you to know, is a Christian and she's going to not be is a Christian and she's going to not be is a Christian and she's going to not be friends with everybody. She's going to friends with everybody. She's going to friends with everybody. She's going to be free to have her friends and just be free to have her friends and just be free to have her friends and just want you to encourage that." One of the want you to encourage that." One of the want you to encourage that." One of the best ways you encourage me is to best ways you encourage me is to best ways you encourage me is to encourage my wife and let her have encourage my wife and let her have encourage my wife and let her have friends. Yeah. And just to be clear, friends. Yeah. And just to be clear, friends. Yeah. And just to be clear, when you say she's a Christian, what you when you say she's a Christian, what you when you say she's a Christian, what you what you mean is what you mean is what you mean is >> she's not going to be the first lady of >> she's not going to be the first lady of >> she's not going to be the first lady of the church. the church. the church. >> The first lady of the church. >> The first lady of the church. >> The first lady of the church. >> She's an ordinary Christian, an ordinary >> She's an ordinary Christian, an ordinary >> She's an ordinary Christian, an ordinary member. And her first responsibility is member. And her first responsibility is member. And her first responsibility is to me and our kids and those she's in to me and our kids and those she's in to me and our kids and those she's in covenant with. covenant with. covenant with. >> Yes. Thank you for fixing that. That's >> Yes. Thank you for fixing that. That's >> Yes. Thank you for fixing that. That's exactly what I mean. And and exactly what I mean. And and exactly what I mean. And and >> get this guys, she's a Christian. >> get this guys, she's a Christian. >> get this guys, she's a Christian. >> Well, well, anyway, so the uh but that's >> Well, well, anyway, so the uh but that's >> Well, well, anyway, so the uh but that's that's had good ripple effects because that's had good ripple effects because that's had good ripple effects because that that sets the tone for the culture that that sets the tone for the culture that that sets the tone for the culture is that not everybody can be friends is that not everybody can be friends is that not everybody can be friends with everybody in the same way. And we with everybody in the same way. And we with everybody in the same way. And we want to we want to praise God when he's want to we want to praise God when he's want to we want to praise God when he's doing good things in other people's doing good things in other people's doing good things in other people's lives. I do think if there's ways that lives. I do think if there's ways that lives. I do think if there's ways that we can encourage um sisters who have a we can encourage um sisters who have a we can encourage um sisters who have a desire for and bandwidth for cultivating desire for and bandwidth for cultivating desire for and bandwidth for cultivating that to provide avenues and that to provide avenues and that to provide avenues and opportunities. So you know this one opportunities. So you know this one opportunities. So you know this one sister she she loves doing this. She sister she she loves doing this. She sister she she loves doing this. She does this for our interned wives. She does this for our interned wives. She does this for our interned wives. She does this for elders. She just lets her does this for elders. She just lets her does this for elders. She just lets her think. She loves doing it. So please think. She loves doing it. So please think. She loves doing it. So please anything we can do here's some money anything we can do here's some money anything we can do here's some money here's some encouragement. Anything you here's some encouragement. Anything you here's some encouragement. Anything you need like figure it out. Thank you and need like figure it out. Thank you and need like figure it out. Thank you and provide those those opportunities. And I

provide those those opportunities. And I provide those those opportunities. And I think that's been good. I think also, think that's been good. I think also, think that's been good. I think also, you know, we have an end of the um end you know, we have an end of the um end you know, we have an end of the um end of the year dinner where uh elders and of the year dinner where uh elders and of the year dinner where uh elders and their wives come and we ask them to to their wives come and we ask them to to their wives come and we ask them to to share if they're up for it. Not share if they're up for it. Not share if they're up for it. Not everybody has to, but like the floor is everybody has to, but like the floor is everybody has to, but like the floor is open for both the brothers and the open for both the brothers and the open for both the brothers and the sisters to share things that have been sisters to share things that have been sisters to share things that have been encouraging encouraging encouraging >> and oh, it's so wonderful to hear some >> and oh, it's so wonderful to hear some >> and oh, it's so wonderful to hear some of the sisters talk about how one of the sisters talk about how one of the sisters talk about how one another and other people have blessed. another and other people have blessed. another and other people have blessed. And I think you just the more again, And I think you just the more again, And I think you just the more again, >> one of the common themes to this whole >> one of the common themes to this whole >> one of the common themes to this whole thing is you got to make time. Yeah. And thing is you got to make time. Yeah. And thing is you got to make time. Yeah. And like in Washington DC, it's so busy like in Washington DC, it's so busy like in Washington DC, it's so busy where we are and it's you have to make where we are and it's you have to make where we are and it's you have to make time or it will not happen. time or it will not happen. time or it will not happen. >> So I think part of building a culture is >> So I think part of building a culture is >> So I think part of building a culture is is is is guarding time for those sorts is is is guarding time for those sorts is is is guarding time for those sorts of things. And again, I've said there's of things. And again, I've said there's of things. And again, I've said there's seasons we're doing it well and seasons seasons we're doing it well and seasons seasons we're doing it well and seasons we aren't. Um but that's been that's we aren't. Um but that's been that's we aren't. Um but that's been that's been a sweet a really sweet gift. been a sweet a really sweet gift. been a sweet a really sweet gift. >> Yeah. So, and it can be hard as a >> Yeah. So, and it can be hard as a >> Yeah. So, and it can be hard as a pastor's wife to feel like you're kind pastor's wife to feel like you're kind pastor's wife to feel like you're kind of always the one initiating um always of always the one initiating um always of always the one initiating um always the one pouring into others and if the one pouring into others and if the one pouring into others and if people are coming to you um you can people are coming to you um you can people are coming to you um you can wonder at times are there ulterior wonder at times are there ulterior wonder at times are there ulterior motives? Is it going are they going to motives? Is it going are they going to motives? Is it going are they going to be pumping you for information about be pumping you for information about be pumping you for information about what the elders are thinking? Correct.

what the elders are thinking? Correct. what the elders are thinking? Correct. >> Um you know, hey, what are the elders >> Um you know, hey, what are the elders >> Um you know, hey, what are the elders thinking about that? It's like I don't thinking about that? It's like I don't thinking about that? It's like I don't know. Ask ask an elder. Um so it it can know. Ask ask an elder. Um so it it can know. Ask ask an elder. Um so it it can be a tricky thing. Um but what about be a tricky thing. Um but what about be a tricky thing. Um but what about what would you add? Well, I one to go what would you add? Well, I one to go what would you add? Well, I one to go back to the idea of the ministers being back to the idea of the ministers being back to the idea of the ministers being friends. friends. friends. I wanted all the ministers to be I wanted all the ministers to be I wanted all the ministers to be friends. I knew that I could not expect friends. I knew that I could not expect friends. I knew that I could not expect to have exactly the same kind of to have exactly the same kind of to have exactly the same kind of friendships between their wives as friendships between their wives as friendships between their wives as existed between them because that that's existed between them because that that's existed between them because that that's a that's a different dynamic. Uh couples a that's a different dynamic. Uh couples a that's a different dynamic. Uh couples are all different. And I now I didn't I are all different. And I now I didn't I are all different. And I now I didn't I didn't want the wives to hate one didn't want the wives to hate one didn't want the wives to hate one another, another, another, >> but I I wanted I wanted to make sure >> but I I wanted I wanted to make sure >> but I I wanted I wanted to make sure that they had opportunities for natural that they had opportunities for natural that they had opportunities for natural friendships in the congregation. And I friendships in the congregation. And I friendships in the congregation. And I want to I want to praise my want to I want to praise my want to I want to praise my congregation. We we were a traditional congregation. We we were a traditional congregation. We we were a traditional southern congregation with a lot of the southern congregation with a lot of the southern congregation with a lot of the expectations that you were talking expectations that you were talking expectations that you were talking about, first lady of the church kind of about, first lady of the church kind of about, first lady of the church kind of thing. Our people were great about not thing. Our people were great about not thing. Our people were great about not overprescribing overprescribing overprescribing what our pastors and their wife what our pastors and their wife what our pastors and their wife relationships would be like in the relationships would be like in the relationships would be like in the congregation. They gave a lot of freedom congregation. They gave a lot of freedom congregation. They gave a lot of freedom there. But there were challenges and there. But there were challenges and there. But there were challenges and there were especially challenges for my there were especially challenges for my there were especially challenges for my wife. Um, Anne had been on the church wife. Um, Anne had been on the church wife. Um, Anne had been on the church staff of two large Presbyterian staff of two large Presbyterian staff of two large Presbyterian churches, one in Alabama, one in churches, one in Alabama, one in churches, one in Alabama, one in Colombia. She knew what it was like to Colombia. She knew what it was like to Colombia. She knew what it was like to be a church staff member, and she had be a church staff member, and she had be a church staff member, and she had tons of relationships. She is the most tons of relationships. She is the most tons of relationships. She is the most gregarious person I know. She feeds off gregarious person I know. She feeds off gregarious person I know. She feeds off of relationships with people. Whereas, of relationships with people. Whereas, of relationships with people. Whereas, if you told me you were going to drop me if you told me you were going to drop me if you told me you were going to drop me on a desert island with a copy of the on a desert island with a copy of the on a desert island with a copy of the Bible in Calvin's Institutes for the Bible in Calvin's Institutes for the Bible in Calvin's Institutes for the next six months and leave me some food next six months and leave me some food next six months and leave me some food and come back and see me later, I'd say,

and come back and see me later, I'd say, and come back and see me later, I'd say, "Great." You know, that would she would "Great." You know, that would she would "Great." You know, that would she would hate that. zero with some code zero some hate that. zero with some code zero some hate that. zero with some code zero some a bonus, you know, but she would want to a bonus, you know, but she would want to a bonus, you know, but she would want to be drop her down in front of 3,000 be drop her down in front of 3,000 be drop her down in front of 3,000 people that she could relate to. That's people that she could relate to. That's people that she could relate to. That's what energizes her. But she had a really what energizes her. But she had a really what energizes her. But she had a really lonely experience at the church. lonely experience at the church. lonely experience at the church. >> Uh partly because we had kids with >> Uh partly because we had kids with >> Uh partly because we had kids with pediatric immune deficiencies pediatric immune deficiencies pediatric immune deficiencies >> that kept Now again, let me praise the >> that kept Now again, let me praise the >> that kept Now again, let me praise the women of the church. The women of the women of the church. The women of the women of the church. The women of the church realized that and they said, church realized that and they said, church realized that and they said, "Look, we'll come keep the kids at the "Look, we'll come keep the kids at the "Look, we'll come keep the kids at the house so that you can go to church." So house so that you can go to church." So house so that you can go to church." So they were thinking about serving her, they were thinking about serving her, they were thinking about serving her, but it was still a really lonely life. but it was still a really lonely life. but it was still a really lonely life. She felt like she was in a cave with two She felt like she was in a cave with two She felt like she was in a cave with two kids that could never get well from kids that could never get well from kids that could never get well from upper respiratory infections upper respiratory infections upper respiratory infections >> for like eight years. >> for like eight years. >> for like eight years. >> Oh yeah. It went on for seven, eight >> Oh yeah. It went on for seven, eight >> Oh yeah. It went on for seven, eight years that she had to deal with that. years that she had to deal with that. years that she had to deal with that. The pulpit committee as actually asked, The pulpit committee as actually asked, The pulpit committee as actually asked, "What what is your role going to be as "What what is your role going to be as "What what is your role going to be as the first lady of the church?" And she the first lady of the church?" And she the first lady of the church?" And she said, said, said, >> "Uh, my job is to take care of your >> "Uh, my job is to take care of your >> "Uh, my job is to take care of your pastor and his children and to be a good pastor and his children and to be a good pastor and his children and to be a good Christian." And so she wasn't trying to Christian." And so she wasn't trying to Christian." And so she wasn't trying to get some formal role in the life of the get some formal role in the life of the get some formal role in the life of the congregation. Although she was a good congregation. Although she was a good congregation. Although she was a good Christian educator and had a real heart Christian educator and had a real heart Christian educator and had a real heart for the local church. She loved local for the local church. She loved local for the local church. She loved local church life and ministry and had church life and ministry and had church life and ministry and had significant gifts. But she wanted to be significant gifts. But she wanted to be significant gifts. But she wanted to be a wife and a mother and a Christian in a wife and a mother and a Christian in a wife and a mother and a Christian in the congregation and not necessarily the congregation and not necessarily the congregation and not necessarily have some public role. And we the two have some public role. And we the two have some public role. And we the two previous senior ministers wives were previous senior ministers wives were previous senior ministers wives were really really gift. one was really really really gift. one was really really really gift. one was really really gifted in teaching and had really gifted in teaching and had really gifted in teaching and had started uh women's Bible studies that started uh women's Bible studies that started uh women's Bible studies that were drawing 6 or 700 women a week from

were drawing 6 or 700 women a week from were drawing 6 or 700 women a week from all over the city uh and one who was all over the city uh and one who was all over the city uh and one who was just amazing at hospitality and at just amazing at hospitality and at just amazing at hospitality and at caring for the mothers especially the caring for the mothers especially the caring for the mothers especially the young mothers in the congregation and so young mothers in the congregation and so young mothers in the congregation and so they had kind of defined the way that they had kind of defined the way that they had kind of defined the way that they were going to be a senior they were going to be a senior they were going to be a senior minister's wife and so that was kind of minister's wife and so that was kind of minister's wife and so that was kind of set for an and an was in a different set for an and an was in a different set for an and an was in a different stage of life with little kids They had stage of life with little kids They had stage of life with little kids They had not had a senior minister's wife with not had a senior minister's wife with not had a senior minister's wife with little children at home little children at home little children at home >> in like over 125 years in the history of >> in like over 125 years in the history of >> in like over 125 years in the history of the church. All of the ministers, their the church. All of the ministers, their the church. All of the ministers, their families were were grown by the time families were were grown by the time families were were grown by the time they came for the memory of everybody they came for the memory of everybody they came for the memory of everybody that was alive in the church. And so we that was alive in the church. And so we that was alive in the church. And so we just had a different dynamic going on. just had a different dynamic going on. just had a different dynamic going on. So I do think you have to pay attention So I do think you have to pay attention So I do think you have to pay attention >> to dynamics that are going to face wives >> to dynamics that are going to face wives >> to dynamics that are going to face wives of elders and pastors that that the of elders and pastors that that the of elders and pastors that that the elders and pastors themselves don't elders and pastors themselves don't elders and pastors themselves don't experience. I mean, here I was, my wife experience. I mean, here I was, my wife experience. I mean, here I was, my wife was more people person than me. I had was more people person than me. I had was more people person than me. I had all the people person interaction that all the people person interaction that all the people person interaction that you could ever want for and more. And you could ever want for and more. And you could ever want for and more. And she was lonely. And that that's you you she was lonely. And that that's you you she was lonely. And that that's you you just got to keep an eye on those kinds just got to keep an eye on those kinds just got to keep an eye on those kinds of of dynamics. It was a lot easier for of of dynamics. It was a lot easier for of of dynamics. It was a lot easier for me to make friends in that setting than me to make friends in that setting than me to make friends in that setting than it was for her. Even though she's a lot it was for her. Even though she's a lot it was for her. Even though she's a lot better at making friends than I am, the better at making friends than I am, the better at making friends than I am, the Lord just provided for me and it was Lord just provided for me and it was Lord just provided for me and it was challenging for her. You know, one of challenging for her. You know, one of challenging for her. You know, one of the things when we think about the things when we think about the things when we think about friendships, there's there's real risk friendships, there's there's real risk friendships, there's there's real risk in being vulnerable and being tight-knit in being vulnerable and being tight-knit in being vulnerable and being tight-knit with others because sometimes with others because sometimes with others because sometimes friendships, they do go south. Um

friendships, they do go south. Um friendships, they do go south. Um there's differences of opinion. There's there's differences of opinion. There's there's differences of opinion. There's lots of different things. I know I've lots of different things. I know I've lots of different things. I know I've had that in my life. Like I mean, you had that in my life. Like I mean, you had that in my life. Like I mean, you know, Together for the Gospel, one of know, Together for the Gospel, one of know, Together for the Gospel, one of the things that made it so sweet was the things that made it so sweet was the things that made it so sweet was that it was forged out of friendships. that it was forged out of friendships. that it was forged out of friendships. There were people on the stage There were people on the stage There were people on the stage >> sharing in in life and ministry that >> sharing in in life and ministry that >> sharing in in life and ministry that loved one another a lot. loved one another a lot. loved one another a lot. >> Yeah. And I just wonder if you'd be >> Yeah. And I just wonder if you'd be >> Yeah. And I just wonder if you'd be willing to comment about the the pain of willing to comment about the the pain of willing to comment about the the pain of those sorts of things when there's those sorts of things when there's those sorts of things when there's fractures and what's that been like for fractures and what's that been like for fractures and what's that been like for you personally? you personally? you personally? >> Yeah, one thing to recognize about that >> Yeah, one thing to recognize about that >> Yeah, one thing to recognize about that is friendships that are in the public is friendships that are in the public is friendships that are in the public eye eye eye >> face some challenges in the perseverance >> face some challenges in the perseverance >> face some challenges in the perseverance of those friendships that private of those friendships that private of those friendships that private friendships don't. And so when when you friendships don't. And so when when you friendships don't. And so when when you have friendships with other people that have friendships with other people that have friendships with other people that are visible in the public, are visible in the public, are visible in the public, certain things can come along that can certain things can come along that can certain things can come along that can be interrupting to that. I I still be interrupting to that. I I still be interrupting to that. I I still personally love everybody that was personally love everybody that was personally love everybody that was involved at T4G. My relationships have involved at T4G. My relationships have involved at T4G. My relationships have been affected significantly by the been affected significantly by the been affected significantly by the things that have happened over time. And things that have happened over time. And things that have happened over time. And I think probably Mark and Kevin have I think probably Mark and Kevin have I think probably Mark and Kevin have been the two guys that have done the been the two guys that have done the been the two guys that have done the best job of staying connected with best job of staying connected with best job of staying connected with everybody since T4G came to an end. But everybody since T4G came to an end. But everybody since T4G came to an end. But um it it was very painful to lose the um it it was very painful to lose the um it it was very painful to lose the regular fellowship that we were enjoying regular fellowship that we were enjoying regular fellowship that we were enjoying that the my favorite part of T4G was not that the my favorite part of T4G was not that the my favorite part of T4G was not the conference. It was getting together the conference. It was getting together the conference. It was getting together at the meeting in Louisville with just at the meeting in Louisville with just at the meeting in Louisville with just the guys that were speaking and and

the guys that were speaking and and the guys that were speaking and and asking one another questions like we've asking one another questions like we've asking one another questions like we've been talking about uh asking about our been talking about uh asking about our been talking about uh asking about our lives, asking a asking about our local lives, asking a asking about our local lives, asking a asking about our local church ministry, asking about uh our you church ministry, asking about uh our you church ministry, asking about uh our you know what what's going on in your heart, know what what's going on in your heart, know what what's going on in your heart, how how's your wife doing, how are your how how's your wife doing, how are your how how's your wife doing, how are your children doing. That was an incredible children doing. That was an incredible children doing. That was an incredible blessing. Some of the most memorable blessing. Some of the most memorable blessing. Some of the most memorable things in my life. Even though when that things in my life. Even though when that things in my life. Even though when that was happening, was happening, was happening, >> Garrett, I never thought this is going >> Garrett, I never thought this is going >> Garrett, I never thought this is going to go on forever. I I thought, don't to go on forever. I I thought, don't to go on forever. I I thought, don't take this for granted. This is probably take this for granted. This is probably take this for granted. This is probably not. And partly that was age the age not. And partly that was age the age not. And partly that was age the age spans, right? You had some guys, okay, spans, right? You had some guys, okay, spans, right? You had some guys, okay, they're going to age out of this. You they're going to age out of this. You they're going to age out of this. You know, maybe I'm going to age out of know, maybe I'm going to age out of know, maybe I'm going to age out of this. Uh Kevin's going to outlive all of this. Uh Kevin's going to outlive all of this. Uh Kevin's going to outlive all of us, you know, that sort of thing. So, I us, you know, that sort of thing. So, I us, you know, that sort of thing. So, I never took it for granted. But the, you never took it for granted. But the, you never took it for granted. But the, you know, the the the issues that that led know, the the the issues that that led know, the the the issues that that led to T4G eventually saying, "Okay, it's to T4G eventually saying, "Okay, it's to T4G eventually saying, "Okay, it's time to time time to bring this to a time to time time to bring this to a time to time time to bring this to a close." That definitely had an impact on close." That definitely had an impact on close." That definitely had an impact on our on our friendships. Now, I think our on our friendships. Now, I think our on our friendships. Now, I think that can also happen in other places. that can also happen in other places. that can also happen in other places. So, I've mentioned Derek Thomas. Derek So, I've mentioned Derek Thomas. Derek So, I've mentioned Derek Thomas. Derek and I got together every week for 12 and I got together every week for 12 and I got together every week for 12 years. I knew eventually he was going to years. I knew eventually he was going to years. I knew eventually he was going to get called to another church, and I knew get called to another church, and I knew get called to another church, and I knew that time was going to come to an end.

that time was going to come to an end. that time was going to come to an end. Now, our friendship has continued at a Now, our friendship has continued at a Now, our friendship has continued at a distance, but it's not the same when distance, but it's not the same when distance, but it's not the same when you're getting together in person every you're getting together in person every you're getting together in person every week for a meal. And so, all of us, I week for a meal. And so, all of us, I week for a meal. And so, all of us, I think, have to recognize there are going think, have to recognize there are going think, have to recognize there are going to be seasons of friendships. There are to be seasons of friendships. There are to be seasons of friendships. There are going to be some friends that walk with going to be some friends that walk with going to be some friends that walk with us until we cross the finish line. There us until we cross the finish line. There us until we cross the finish line. There going to be others who walk with us for going to be others who walk with us for going to be others who walk with us for a certain season and then it's going to a certain season and then it's going to a certain season and then it's going to be over. I just one thing I always said be over. I just one thing I always said be over. I just one thing I always said is don't take it for granted. Yeah. is don't take it for granted. Yeah. is don't take it for granted. Yeah. >> And then you Yes. You have regret. I >> And then you Yes. You have regret. I >> And then you Yes. You have regret. I mean, I I look back and say, are there mean, I I look back and say, are there mean, I I look back and say, are there things that I could have done things that I could have done things that I could have done differently that would have helped the differently that would have helped the differently that would have helped the fellowship stay together longer? That fellowship stay together longer? That fellowship stay together longer? That that is one of the those are regrets that is one of the those are regrets that is one of the those are regrets that I'll take to the grave. that I'll take to the grave. that I'll take to the grave. >> Well, brother, thank you for for sharing >> Well, brother, thank you for for sharing >> Well, brother, thank you for for sharing that. And uh that. And uh that. And uh >> yeah, I just want you to know it's it it >> yeah, I just want you to know it's it it >> yeah, I just want you to know it's it it helped me to be hopeful for friends and helped me to be hopeful for friends and helped me to be hopeful for friends and and knowing that, you know, out of the and knowing that, you know, out of the and knowing that, you know, out of the public eye, you guys still have warm public eye, you guys still have warm public eye, you guys still have warm affection for one another is is a sweet affection for one another is is a sweet affection for one another is is a sweet gift, but um I appreciate you sharing gift, but um I appreciate you sharing gift, but um I appreciate you sharing that. that. that. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Yeah. in terms of uh just ways as we >> Yeah. in terms of uh just ways as we >> Yeah. in terms of uh just ways as we kind of wrap up this episode, ways that kind of wrap up this episode, ways that kind of wrap up this episode, ways that we can teach our church members to think we can teach our church members to think we can teach our church members to think about friendship even among one another about friendship even among one another about friendship even among one another and in their own lives. Uh when you all and in their own lives. Uh when you all and in their own lives. Uh when you all teach on this topic, what are some of teach on this topic, what are some of teach on this topic, what are some of the main notes you're wanting to sound?

the main notes you're wanting to sound? the main notes you're wanting to sound? >> Um I I think you got to make make time >> Um I I think you got to make make time >> Um I I think you got to make make time for it. Secondly, you've got to be for it. Secondly, you've got to be for it. Secondly, you've got to be vulnerable. This is one of the I think vulnerable. This is one of the I think vulnerable. This is one of the I think threats to a lot of people is like if I threats to a lot of people is like if I threats to a lot of people is like if I have people who are close to me, they're have people who are close to me, they're have people who are close to me, they're going to know what's going on. But as as going to know what's going on. But as as going to know what's going on. But as as Christians, especially as Christian Christians, especially as Christian Christians, especially as Christian pastors, we know we we need people in pastors, we know we we need people in pastors, we know we we need people in our lives who know the the most the the our lives who know the the most the the our lives who know the the most the the deepest part of us to walk with us deepest part of us to walk with us deepest part of us to walk with us through really hard things. Um, one of through really hard things. Um, one of through really hard things. Um, one of my uh quotes that I love from that that my uh quotes that I love from that that my uh quotes that I love from that that book that I mentioned, Made for book that I mentioned, Made for book that I mentioned, Made for Friendship, from Drew Hunter, he says, Friendship, from Drew Hunter, he says, Friendship, from Drew Hunter, he says, uh, the world is full of sorrow because uh, the world is full of sorrow because uh, the world is full of sorrow because it's full of sin. It's a dark place. it's full of sin. It's a dark place. it's full of sin. It's a dark place. It's a lonely place. It's a It's a lonely place. It's a It's a lonely place. It's a disappointing place. The brightest s disappointing place. The brightest s disappointing place. The brightest s sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship sunbeam in it is a friend. Friendship halves our troubles and doubles our halves our troubles and doubles our halves our troubles and doubles our joys. M joys. M joys. M >> and I just think what a painting that >> and I just think what a painting that >> and I just think what a painting that picture of listen picture of listen picture of listen the American culture teaches you to be the American culture teaches you to be the American culture teaches you to be by yourself and be strong. You're an by yourself and be strong. You're an by yourself and be strong. You're an individual. But God's made you for one individual. But God's made you for one individual. But God's made you for one another. So the gospel says stop trying another. So the gospel says stop trying another. So the gospel says stop trying to impress people. Stop trying to like to impress people. Stop trying to like to impress people. Stop trying to like one up one. Don't envy one another. Love one up one. Don't envy one another. Love one up one. Don't envy one another. Love one. You need each other. I think one. You need each other. I think one. You need each other. I think painting the picture of how God's painting the picture of how God's painting the picture of how God's designed us to need one another designed us to need one another designed us to need one another >> and people who are different than we are >> and people who are different than we are >> and people who are different than we are and better than we are at certain and better than we are at certain and better than we are at certain things.

things. things. >> Diverse relationship find people who >> Diverse relationship find people who >> Diverse relationship find people who remind you of yourself. remind you of yourself. remind you of yourself. >> Sure. There could be a real like people >> Sure. There could be a real like people >> Sure. There could be a real like people have visceral reactions. Yeah. Visceral have visceral reactions. Yeah. Visceral have visceral reactions. Yeah. Visceral reaction. The idea of diversity of reaction. The idea of diversity of reaction. The idea of diversity of friendships like oh that could be a hot friendships like oh that could be a hot friendships like oh that could be a hot button. But I have learned so much from button. But I have learned so much from button. But I have learned so much from people who didn't grow up in places that people who didn't grow up in places that people who didn't grow up in places that I didn't I didn't grow up cultures I'm I didn't I didn't grow up cultures I'm I didn't I didn't grow up cultures I'm not from all the different stuff there. not from all the different stuff there. not from all the different stuff there. They see the world in a way that I don't They see the world in a way that I don't They see the world in a way that I don't that has enriched me so much. So, I that has enriched me so much. So, I that has enriched me so much. So, I think you just want to teach those as think you just want to teach those as think you just want to teach those as common themes of what the church is. common themes of what the church is. common themes of what the church is. It's a tight-knit, honest people who It's a tight-knit, honest people who It's a tight-knit, honest people who committed to Christ and one another committed to Christ and one another committed to Christ and one another together who come from every tribe, together who come from every tribe, together who come from every tribe, tongue, and nation. And the Lord the tongue, and nation. And the Lord the tongue, and nation. And the Lord the Lord blesses that. Lord blesses that. Lord blesses that. >> I would say just a couple um resources >> I would say just a couple um resources >> I would say just a couple um resources that I think paint the picture well. So, that I think paint the picture well. So, that I think paint the picture well. So, I guess Drew's Drew's book is there. I guess Drew's Drew's book is there. I guess Drew's Drew's book is there. >> Just for pastors though, it's really >> Just for pastors though, it's really >> Just for pastors though, it's really helpful. Um so, I love Wise Council uh helpful. Um so, I love Wise Council uh helpful. Um so, I love Wise Council uh is a great book of the letters of John is a great book of the letters of John is a great book of the letters of John Newton to to Ryland, a younger pastor. Newton to to Ryland, a younger pastor. Newton to to Ryland, a younger pastor. Um, and in there you see a friendship Um, and in there you see a friendship Um, and in there you see a friendship grow. I mean, they they mourn together grow. I mean, they they mourn together grow. I mean, they they mourn together over the death of their wives and all of over the death of their wives and all of over the death of their wives and all of the stuff. It's it's a wonderful book. the stuff. It's it's a wonderful book. the stuff. It's it's a wonderful book. Uh, our interns read it and it's it's Uh, our interns read it and it's it's Uh, our interns read it and it's it's over I mean, it's one of the favorite over I mean, it's one of the favorite over I mean, it's one of the favorite things that the interns read because you things that the interns read because you things that the interns read because you get to see what it looks like for for get to see what it looks like for for get to see what it looks like for for pastor friends to share cont what do you pastor friends to share cont what do you pastor friends to share cont what do you do with the vaccination? That was a do with the vaccination? That was a do with the vaccination? That was a thing in the small talk. All this kind thing in the small talk. All this kind thing in the small talk. All this kind of stuff like what do you do with that?

of stuff like what do you do with that? of stuff like what do you do with that? What do you do with when there's What do you do with when there's What do you do with when there's controversy? Somebody wrote a pamphlet controversy? Somebody wrote a pamphlet controversy? Somebody wrote a pamphlet about you. Well, here's how I would about you. Well, here's how I would about you. Well, here's how I would encourage you to think about it. It's a encourage you to think about it. It's a encourage you to think about it. It's a window into the real things that pastors window into the real things that pastors window into the real things that pastors wrestle with. So, wise counsel is really wrestle with. So, wise counsel is really wrestle with. So, wise counsel is really good. good. good. >> And then I personally love Pilgrim's >> And then I personally love Pilgrim's >> And then I personally love Pilgrim's Progress and I have I just have a Progress and I have I just have a Progress and I have I just have a bookmark in that book and I'm reading it bookmark in that book and I'm reading it bookmark in that book and I'm reading it all the time. And you just watch how all the time. And you just watch how all the time. And you just watch how Christian Christian Christian he needed faithful. He needed hopeful. he needed faithful. He needed hopeful. he needed faithful. He needed hopeful. He needed great heart. He need he needed He needed great heart. He need he needed He needed great heart. He need he needed all these people to help him to make it all these people to help him to make it all these people to help him to make it home. home. home. >> Yeah. And uh that's I think the Lord's >> Yeah. And uh that's I think the Lord's >> Yeah. And uh that's I think the Lord's really used that book to paint a really used that book to paint a really used that book to paint a beautiful picture of how much in beautiful picture of how much in beautiful picture of how much in different seasons God brings different different seasons God brings different different seasons God brings different people uh to help us to make it home. people uh to help us to make it home. people uh to help us to make it home. Yeah. And that's what a Christian friend Yeah. And that's what a Christian friend Yeah. And that's what a Christian friend is like we're going to heaven together. is like we're going to heaven together. is like we're going to heaven together. Let's go. Let's go. Let's go. >> That's so good. >> That's so good. >> That's so good. >> I I love this quote from CS Lewis from >> I I love this quote from CS Lewis from >> I I love this quote from CS Lewis from the what I referenced earlier from the the what I referenced earlier from the the what I referenced earlier from the four loves. He writes in friendship we four loves. He writes in friendship we four loves. He writes in friendship we think we have chosen our peers. In think we have chosen our peers. In think we have chosen our peers. In reality, a few years difference in the reality, a few years difference in the reality, a few years difference in the date of our births, a few more miles date of our births, a few more miles date of our births, a few more miles between certain houses, the choice of between certain houses, the choice of between certain houses, the choice of one university instead of another, the one university instead of another, the one university instead of another, the accident of a topic being raised or not accident of a topic being raised or not accident of a topic being raised or not raised at a first meeting. Any of these raised at a first meeting. Any of these raised at a first meeting. Any of these chances might have kept us apart. But chances might have kept us apart. But chances might have kept us apart. But for a Christian, there are strictly for a Christian, there are strictly for a Christian, there are strictly speaking no chances.

speaking no chances. speaking no chances. >> A secret master of the ceremonies has >> A secret master of the ceremonies has >> A secret master of the ceremonies has been at work. Christ who said to the been at work. Christ who said to the been at work. Christ who said to the disciples, "You have not chosen me, but disciples, "You have not chosen me, but disciples, "You have not chosen me, but I have chosen you." Can truly say to I have chosen you." Can truly say to I have chosen you." Can truly say to every group of Christian friends, "You every group of Christian friends, "You every group of Christian friends, "You have not chosen one another, but I have have not chosen one another, but I have have not chosen one another, but I have chosen you for one another." chosen you for one another." chosen you for one another." >> The friendship is not a reward for our >> The friendship is not a reward for our >> The friendship is not a reward for our discriminating and good taste in finding discriminating and good taste in finding discriminating and good taste in finding one another out. It is the instrument by one another out. It is the instrument by one another out. It is the instrument by which God reveals to each of us the which God reveals to each of us the which God reveals to each of us the beauties of others. At this feast, it is beauties of others. At this feast, it is beauties of others. At this feast, it is he who has spread the board and it is he he who has spread the board and it is he he who has spread the board and it is he who has chosen the guests. who has chosen the guests. who has chosen the guests. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. We hope this episode of the >> Amen. We hope this episode of the >> Amen. We hope this episode of the Everyday Pastor has been an Everyday Pastor has been an Everyday Pastor has been an encouragement to you and we hope that encouragement to you and we hope that encouragement to you and we hope that you will find faithful friends in the you will find faithful friends in the you will find faithful friends in the work of ministry and that you'll share work of ministry and that you'll share work of ministry and that you'll share this episode with other pastors so that this episode with other pastors so that this episode with other pastors so that we can help them find fresh joy in this we can help them find fresh joy in this we can help them find fresh joy in this good work.