Work and the Meaning of Life (with David Bahnsen) [Gospelbound - Ep. 174]

If you believe as I do that in the If you believe as I do that in the domain of God's kingdom are really domain of God's kingdom are really domain of God's kingdom are really important spheres like family, like important spheres like family, like important spheres like family, like church, like community, but also like church, like community, but also like church, like community, but also like our professional endeavors. [music] our professional endeavors. [music] our professional endeavors. [music] The one thing I would just plead to The one thing I would just plead to The one thing I would just plead to people not to do is to pit those things people not to do is to pit those things people not to do is to pit those things against one another. >> Work is [music] the meaning of life. Got >> Work is [music] the meaning of life. Got your attention? your attention? your attention? Your identity is tied to what you do. Your identity is tied to what you do. Your identity is tied to what you do. Well, I bet I have your attention now. Well, I bet I have your attention now. Well, I bet I have your attention now. So, argues David Bonson in his book, So, argues David Bonson in his book, So, argues David Bonson in his book, Full-Time Work and the Meaning of Life. Full-Time Work and the Meaning of Life. Full-Time Work and the Meaning of Life. Bonsson is the founder, managing Bonsson is the founder, managing Bonsson is the founder, managing partner, and chief investment officer of partner, and chief investment officer of partner, and chief investment officer of the Bonsson Group, a private wealth the Bonsson Group, a private wealth the Bonsson Group, a private wealth management firm. He's also the author of management firm. He's also the author of management firm. He's also the author of several books, including Crisis of several books, including Crisis of several books, including Crisis of Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction Responsibility: Our Cultural Addiction to Blame and How You Can Cure It. Let's to Blame and How You Can Cure It. Let's to Blame and How You Can Cure It. Let's just go ahead dive right in, find out just go ahead dive right in, find out just go ahead dive right in, find out more what he means. David, thank you for more what he means. David, thank you for more what he means. David, thank you for joining me on Gospel Bound.

joining me on Gospel Bound. joining me on Gospel Bound. >> Well, thank you so much for having me. >> Well, thank you so much for having me. >> Well, thank you so much for having me. Good to be with you. Good to be with you. Good to be with you. >> Uh, why does this topic in your book >> Uh, why does this topic in your book >> Uh, why does this topic in your book full-time animate you more than any full-time animate you more than any full-time animate you more than any other? That's a big claim. you do a lot other? That's a big claim. you do a lot other? That's a big claim. you do a lot of different great things. What is it of different great things. What is it of different great things. What is it about this topic that's so fascinating about this topic that's so fascinating about this topic that's so fascinating for you? for you? for you? >> I think a lot of it is biographical that >> I think a lot of it is biographical that >> I think a lot of it is biographical that I um was raised to believe that work is I um was raised to believe that work is I um was raised to believe that work is important and a and a crucial element of important and a and a crucial element of important and a and a crucial element of a Christian's kingdom activity. a Christian's kingdom activity. a Christian's kingdom activity. But then I also went through some things But then I also went through some things But then I also went through some things in my own life where I got a chance to in my own life where I got a chance to in my own life where I got a chance to experience um the design God has for us experience um the design God has for us experience um the design God has for us and how work can be so crucial in and how work can be so crucial in and how work can be so crucial in certain moments of our life. uh certain moments of our life. uh certain moments of our life. uh personally and in entering adulthood, personally and in entering adulthood, personally and in entering adulthood, I um was a believer and was committed to I um was a believer and was committed to I um was a believer and was committed to the idea of all uh elements of this the idea of all uh elements of this the idea of all uh elements of this domain belonging to Christ. I I believed domain belonging to Christ. I I believed domain belonging to Christ. I I believed it. I took it seriously. Um but you it. I took it seriously. Um but you it. I took it seriously. Um but you know, I didn't really know what I wanted know, I didn't really know what I wanted know, I didn't really know what I wanted to do in my life. And the person who I to do in my life. And the person who I to do in my life. And the person who I most looked up to and admired and most looked up to and admired and most looked up to and admired and learned from and who most loved me was learned from and who most loved me was learned from and who most loved me was my father and he passed away. Um and I my father and he passed away. Um and I my father and he passed away. Um and I was 20 years old. So I was not only you was 20 years old. So I was not only you was 20 years old. So I was not only you know going through the traumatic event know going through the traumatic event know going through the traumatic event of having lost uh my my father which

of having lost uh my my father which of having lost uh my my father which would be difficult for anybody but I was would be difficult for anybody but I was would be difficult for anybody but I was at that age in which a lot of young men at that age in which a lot of young men at that age in which a lot of young men would be asking what what they were would be asking what what they were would be asking what what they were going to do with their life and trying going to do with their life and trying going to do with their life and trying to discover the the various things that to discover the the various things that to discover the the various things that God would have for them and and so these God would have for them and and so these God would have for them and and so these things happening at once were were it things happening at once were were it things happening at once were were it was a very difficult period as you can was a very difficult period as you can was a very difficult period as you can imagine but to kind of fast forward imagine but to kind of fast forward imagine but to kind of fast forward through many years of this I I really um through many years of this I I really um through many years of this I I really um found work to be a very cathartic found work to be a very cathartic found work to be a very cathartic experience. I poured myself in into experience. I poured myself in into experience. I poured myself in into work. I poured myself into various work. I poured myself into various work. I poured myself into various endeavors. endeavors. endeavors. And in those things, I I felt uh God And in those things, I I felt uh God And in those things, I I felt uh God giving me what I needed at that time, giving me what I needed at that time, giving me what I needed at that time, which was a sense of calling and a sense which was a sense of calling and a sense which was a sense of calling and a sense of purpose. of purpose. of purpose. And I would have rather not gone through And I would have rather not gone through And I would have rather not gone through that um without my dad. But the fact that um without my dad. But the fact that um without my dad. But the fact that I did that I did that I did um enabled me to really discover as a um enabled me to really discover as a um enabled me to really discover as a young adult, a young Christian young adult, a young Christian young adult, a young Christian um a very key element of God's created um a very key element of God's created um a very key element of God's created design for us, which is the role that design for us, which is the role that design for us, which is the role that work can play in in producing purpose work can play in in producing purpose work can play in in producing purpose and and uh dignity in our own lives.

and and uh dignity in our own lives. and and uh dignity in our own lives. Well, then to fast forward to your Well, then to fast forward to your Well, then to fast forward to your question about why this book, I did not question about why this book, I did not question about why this book, I did not find the church's interaction with my find the church's interaction with my find the church's interaction with my experience particularly experience particularly experience particularly positive or or embracing. I found a lot positive or or embracing. I found a lot positive or or embracing. I found a lot of caution or concern. of caution or concern. of caution or concern. Um, not not so much, oh wow, it's great Um, not not so much, oh wow, it's great Um, not not so much, oh wow, it's great you've really, you know, diverted this you've really, you know, diverted this you've really, you know, diverted this traumatic event and and in and instead traumatic event and and in and instead traumatic event and and in and instead found purposeful work. Um, instead there found purposeful work. Um, instead there found purposeful work. Um, instead there was a lot of concern. are you sure was a lot of concern. are you sure was a lot of concern. are you sure you're not working too hard? You know, you're not working too hard? You know, you're not working too hard? You know, why why not take more time off? Why um why why not take more time off? Why um why why not take more time off? Why um are you so driven? Why are you so are you so driven? Why are you so are you so driven? Why are you so ambitious? And and I think a lot of that ambitious? And and I think a lot of that ambitious? And and I think a lot of that was very well-meaning. And I certainly was very well-meaning. And I certainly was very well-meaning. And I certainly now as a much older person can now as a much older person can now as a much older person can appreciate the heart of where a lot of appreciate the heart of where a lot of appreciate the heart of where a lot of it may have been coming from. But I it may have been coming from. But I it may have been coming from. But I think theologically I was forced to think theologically I was forced to think theologically I was forced to interact with a church uh an evangelical interact with a church uh an evangelical interact with a church uh an evangelical church in in my early 20s that I think church in in my early 20s that I think church in in my early 20s that I think had this issue wrong. And and so it had this issue wrong. And and so it had this issue wrong. And and so it always stuck with me that those of us always stuck with me that those of us always stuck with me that those of us who had been most trained to a world and who had been most trained to a world and who had been most trained to a world and life view of Christianity might be life view of Christianity might be life view of Christianity might be ecclesiastically surrounded by something ecclesiastically surrounded by something ecclesiastically surrounded by something that when it came to vocation when it that when it came to vocation when it that when it came to vocation when it came to professional endeavor had a much came to professional endeavor had a much came to professional endeavor had a much lower view even than the theology itself lower view even than the theology itself lower view even than the theology itself would suggest of a higher view of would suggest of a higher view of would suggest of a higher view of mission and and and you know kingdom mission and and and you know kingdom mission and and and you know kingdom theology and and whatnot. And that theology and and whatnot. And that theology and and whatnot. And that disconnect had always bothered me and it disconnect had always bothered me and it disconnect had always bothered me and it does to this day. And and so there was

does to this day. And and so there was does to this day. And and so there was this sort of back of my mind feeling this sort of back of my mind feeling this sort of back of my mind feeling that one day I needed to write a book that one day I needed to write a book that one day I needed to write a book about it. [snorts] And then in my uh uh about it. [snorts] And then in my uh uh about it. [snorts] And then in my uh uh late 40s uh now I'm in my early 50s in late 40s uh now I'm in my early 50s in late 40s uh now I'm in my early 50s in the postcoid moment. Um I decided it was the postcoid moment. Um I decided it was the postcoid moment. Um I decided it was the right time. It's no longer a message the right time. It's no longer a message the right time. It's no longer a message that I think just the church is that I think just the church is that I think just the church is struggling with. But I think even this struggling with. But I think even this struggling with. But I think even this great rugged individualistic society of great rugged individualistic society of great rugged individualistic society of America is struggling with it as well America is struggling with it as well America is struggling with it as well where a lot of people are blaming work where a lot of people are blaming work where a lot of people are blaming work as their problem instead of as a as their problem instead of as a as their problem instead of as a solution to their problem. Identity is a solution to their problem. Identity is a solution to their problem. Identity is a theme that comes up in this book and I theme that comes up in this book and I theme that comes up in this book and I alluded to it in the introduction. alluded to it in the introduction. alluded to it in the introduction. You're writing about how our identity is You're writing about how our identity is You're writing about how our identity is tied to what we do. How do you square tied to what we do. How do you square tied to what we do. How do you square that with a lot of the things that that with a lot of the things that that with a lot of the things that you've heard in the evangelical church you've heard in the evangelical church you've heard in the evangelical church as well? especially you hear a lot of as well? especially you hear a lot of as well? especially you hear a lot of things about focusing on, you know, at things about focusing on, you know, at things about focusing on, you know, at the foot of the cross, we're all level. the foot of the cross, we're all level. the foot of the cross, we're all level. Um, how does that fit along with this Um, how does that fit along with this Um, how does that fit along with this way that you're describing identity? way that you're describing identity? way that you're describing identity? Yeah, it's such a good question because Yeah, it's such a good question because Yeah, it's such a good question because there obviously is a theological mystery there obviously is a theological mystery there obviously is a theological mystery here for those of us who believe in this here for those of us who believe in this here for those of us who believe in this sort of ethos of of um the Protestant sort of ethos of of um the Protestant sort of ethos of of um the Protestant Reformation. Um, I do not believe we are Reformation. Um, I do not believe we are Reformation. Um, I do not believe we are saved by the things we do and that saved by the things we do and that saved by the things we do and that includes what we do at our office or includes what we do at our office or includes what we do at our office or factories or classrooms or or you know factories or classrooms or or you know factories or classrooms or or you know whatever the venue of our vocation and whatever the venue of our vocation and whatever the venue of our vocation and professional lives may be. Um, when I professional lives may be. Um, when I professional lives may be. Um, when I talk about identity, I'm referring to a talk about identity, I'm referring to a talk about identity, I'm referring to a sort of personal category that looks sort of personal category that looks sort of personal category that looks into the entirety of who we are. And into the entirety of who we are. And into the entirety of who we are. And salvidically when we when we talk as

salvidically when we when we talk as salvidically when we when we talk as Christians about siriology, I am a firm Christians about siriology, I am a firm Christians about siriology, I am a firm believer that if we were saved by what believer that if we were saved by what believer that if we were saved by what we do, then none of us would be saved we do, then none of us would be saved we do, then none of us would be saved because all of us have sinned and fallen because all of us have sinned and fallen because all of us have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God and that the short of the glory of God and that the short of the glory of God and that the work of Christ on the cross is whereby work of Christ on the cross is whereby work of Christ on the cross is whereby our redemption is uh accomplished. our redemption is uh accomplished. our redemption is uh accomplished. That isn't the category though that I'm That isn't the category though that I'm That isn't the category though that I'm speaking of when I talk about our speaking of when I talk about our speaking of when I talk about our identity as people. Um, and so I use the identity as people. Um, and so I use the identity as people. Um, and so I use the example in my book of allowing us to example in my book of allowing us to example in my book of allowing us to just be human for a moment, to be real. just be human for a moment, to be real. just be human for a moment, to be real. And if I say, um, I want you to close And if I say, um, I want you to close And if I say, um, I want you to close your eyes and picture Michael Jordan. your eyes and picture Michael Jordan. your eyes and picture Michael Jordan. And if there's somebody who isn't And if there's somebody who isn't And if there's somebody who isn't picturing a basketball player, I'd like picturing a basketball player, I'd like picturing a basketball player, I'd like to know who that person is and why to know who that person is and why to know who that person is and why they're lying to me. Because we all they're lying to me. Because we all they're lying to me. Because we all picture Michael Jordan as a basketball picture Michael Jordan as a basketball picture Michael Jordan as a basketball player because there is a portion of his player because there is a portion of his player because there is a portion of his identity that is not only necessarily identity that is not only necessarily identity that is not only necessarily but rightly associated with this but rightly associated with this but rightly associated with this phenomenal achievement and and and ethos phenomenal achievement and and and ethos phenomenal achievement and and and ethos that he has. And likewise, if we knew a that he has. And likewise, if we knew a that he has. And likewise, if we knew a person well who was irresponsible, person well who was irresponsible, person well who was irresponsible, reckless, lazy, um laying sleeping on reckless, lazy, um laying sleeping on reckless, lazy, um laying sleeping on the couch all day, smoking pot, playing the couch all day, smoking pot, playing the couch all day, smoking pot, playing video games, and I said, I want you to video games, and I said, I want you to video games, and I said, I want you to close your eyes and picture this person.

close your eyes and picture this person. close your eyes and picture this person. We would not picture someone in a We would not picture someone in a We would not picture someone in a productive, active, high meritocratic productive, active, high meritocratic productive, active, high meritocratic context. Well, the reason is because context. Well, the reason is because context. Well, the reason is because we're not supposed to. that there is a we're not supposed to. that there is a we're not supposed to. that there is a component of our identity that is component of our identity that is component of our identity that is connected to what we do not salvically connected to what we do not salvically connected to what we do not salvically but in terms of this element of our our but in terms of this element of our our but in terms of this element of our our human lives. So the expression that I'm human lives. So the expression that I'm human lives. So the expression that I'm fond of to kind of summarize it is that fond of to kind of summarize it is that fond of to kind of summarize it is that I do not believe our entire identity is I do not believe our entire identity is I do not believe our entire identity is connected to what we do professionally. connected to what we do professionally. connected to what we do professionally. But I find it equally preposterous to But I find it equally preposterous to But I find it equally preposterous to say that no part of our identity is it say that no part of our identity is it say that no part of our identity is it is a component of it even if it is not is a component of it even if it is not is a component of it even if it is not the entirety of it. the entirety of it. the entirety of it. >> Another one of the phrases I started >> Another one of the phrases I started >> Another one of the phrases I started with in this introduction that stood out with in this introduction that stood out with in this introduction that stood out from the book is you say work is the from the book is you say work is the from the book is you say work is the meaning of life. Okay, tell us more meaning of life. Okay, tell us more meaning of life. Okay, tell us more there. And I I try to define that in the there. And I I try to define that in the there. And I I try to define that in the book only in the context of what I find book only in the context of what I find book only in the context of what I find in scripture which is is so what I'm not in scripture which is is so what I'm not in scripture which is is so what I'm not wanting to do is is impose my own views wanting to do is is impose my own views wanting to do is is impose my own views here. I'm trying to understand what God here. I'm trying to understand what God here. I'm trying to understand what God made us for.

made us for. made us for. And so when I go back to Genesis 1 and I And so when I go back to Genesis 1 and I And so when I go back to Genesis 1 and I look to the creation account and I look to the creation account and I look to the creation account and I understand God making the world and we understand God making the world and we understand God making the world and we know God making it for his own glory and know God making it for his own glory and know God making it for his own glory and then God wanting us to be in communion then God wanting us to be in communion then God wanting us to be in communion with him and I and I believe so much in with him and I and I believe so much in with him and I and I believe so much in this theological principle uh the this theological principle uh the this theological principle uh the Emanuel principle, God with us, God in Emanuel principle, God with us, God in Emanuel principle, God with us, God in relationship with us. And [snorts] so relationship with us. And [snorts] so relationship with us. And [snorts] so what does the actual text say as to why what does the actual text say as to why what does the actual text say as to why after he made the sun, moon, and stars, after he made the sun, moon, and stars, after he made the sun, moon, and stars, the the oceans, the lakes, the the the oceans, the lakes, the the the oceans, the lakes, the mountains, mountains, mountains, um, and after he made the plant kingdom um, and after he made the plant kingdom um, and after he made the plant kingdom and the animal kingdom, why did he make and the animal kingdom, why did he make and the animal kingdom, why did he make all these good things and then turn to all these good things and then turn to all these good things and then turn to and say, I now want to make mankind and say, I now want to make mankind and say, I now want to make mankind and and why did he make us in his image and and why did he make us in his image and and why did he make us in his image and likeness? What does that mean? and and likeness? What does that mean? and and likeness? What does that mean? and and that separates us from the rest of and that separates us from the rest of and that separates us from the rest of the creation and the very verses in the creation and the very verses in the creation and the very verses in which God contextualizes our own which God contextualizes our own which God contextualizes our own creation. So that's why this is, you creation. So that's why this is, you creation. So that's why this is, you know, embedded in in our kind of know, embedded in in our kind of know, embedded in in our kind of ontological purpose ontological purpose ontological purpose is that we were to be fruitful, multiply is that we were to be fruitful, multiply is that we were to be fruitful, multiply and fill the earth, that we were to and fill the earth, that we were to and fill the earth, that we were to cultivate the earth, that we were to cultivate the earth, that we were to cultivate the earth, that we were to care for the garden. that there was as care for the garden. that there was as care for the garden. that there was as you read through the remainder of you read through the remainder of you read through the remainder of Genesis 1 into Genesis 2, there was this Genesis 1 into Genesis 2, there was this Genesis 1 into Genesis 2, there was this creative intent all before sin entered creative intent all before sin entered creative intent all before sin entered the world that was linked to a number of the world that was linked to a number of the world that was linked to a number of verbs that are synonyms for work and and

verbs that are synonyms for work and and verbs that are synonyms for work and and that this notion that he would be in that this notion that he would be in that this notion that he would be in relationship with us as we cocreated relationship with us as we cocreated relationship with us as we cocreated with him. He didn't make the earth with him. He didn't make the earth with him. He didn't make the earth complete. He he made the earth with raw complete. He he made the earth with raw complete. He he made the earth with raw materials and and deputized us to go be materials and and deputized us to go be materials and and deputized us to go be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. He fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. He fruitful, multiply, fill the earth. He made us as economic agents of his made us as economic agents of his made us as economic agents of his creation. So myself as an economist and creation. So myself as an economist and creation. So myself as an economist and one who believes so much in this one who believes so much in this one who believes so much in this entrepreneurial endeavor of the human entrepreneurial endeavor of the human entrepreneurial endeavor of the human race, I believe it is tied to the very race, I believe it is tied to the very race, I believe it is tied to the very intent God had from our creation. So the intent God had from our creation. So the intent God had from our creation. So the problem with saying, well, he made some problem with saying, well, he made some problem with saying, well, he made some of us to work. Elon Musk is a really of us to work. Elon Musk is a really of us to work. Elon Musk is a really great inventor and and so and so is a great inventor and and so and so is a great inventor and and so and so is a great banker or a great entrepreneur, great banker or a great entrepreneur, great banker or a great entrepreneur, but others are just kind of, you know, but others are just kind of, you know, but others are just kind of, you know, they're going to benefit from the they're going to benefit from the they're going to benefit from the economic productivity of others, but economic productivity of others, but economic productivity of others, but they're not capable of really they're not capable of really they're not capable of really contributing. I think the problem with contributing. I think the problem with contributing. I think the problem with that besides the embedded kind of that besides the embedded kind of that besides the embedded kind of elitism and snobbishness of it is it elitism and snobbishness of it is it elitism and snobbishness of it is it misses the theological point that it was misses the theological point that it was misses the theological point that it was a universal truth about God's creation a universal truth about God's creation a universal truth about God's creation that all of us were made in his image that all of us were made in his image that all of us were made in his image and likeness not just a select few and and likeness not just a select few and and likeness not just a select few and therefore all of us were made with a therefore all of us were made with a therefore all of us were made with a productive innovative and creative productive innovative and creative productive innovative and creative capacity. We're all individual. We all capacity. We're all individual. We all capacity. We're all individual. We all have different preferences, different have different preferences, different have different preferences, different giftedness. We're going to manifest giftedness. We're going to manifest giftedness. We're going to manifest these things differently in our own these things differently in our own these things differently in our own callings and lives. But I consider the callings and lives. But I consider the callings and lives. But I consider the percentage of God's creation, human

percentage of God's creation, human percentage of God's creation, human creation, that was made not to work to creation, that was made not to work to creation, that was made not to work to be 0%. And I consider the portion of his be 0%. And I consider the portion of his be 0%. And I consider the portion of his creation that was made in his image and creation that was made in his image and creation that was made in his image and likeness per Genesis chapter 1 to be likeness per Genesis chapter 1 to be likeness per Genesis chapter 1 to be 100%. I think the latest stats I've 100%. I think the latest stats I've 100%. I think the latest stats I've seen, David, are that 1/4th of men who seen, David, are that 1/4th of men who seen, David, are that 1/4th of men who could be working are not working. What could be working are not working. What could be working are not working. What do we do to help change that? do we do to help change that? do we do to help change that? >> Yeah, I'm hoping it hasn't gotten quite >> Yeah, I'm hoping it hasn't gotten quite >> Yeah, I'm hoping it hasn't gotten quite that high, but the numbers have that high, but the numbers have that high, but the numbers have certainly been been moving in that certainly been been moving in that certainly been been moving in that direction. And some of it depends on direction. And some of it depends on direction. And some of it depends on what age bracket you're looking at cuz what age bracket you're looking at cuz what age bracket you're looking at cuz the prime working age is the one that's the prime working age is the one that's the prime working age is the one that's most concerning to me where it's about most concerning to me where it's about most concerning to me where it's about 16% that are not working. And you might 16% that are not working. And you might 16% that are not working. And you might expect the number. Look, I happen to expect the number. Look, I happen to expect the number. Look, I happen to believe a lot of men are retiring too believe a lot of men are retiring too believe a lot of men are retiring too early, but at least if there was a early, but at least if there was a early, but at least if there was a higher percentage at someone at 65 or higher percentage at someone at 65 or higher percentage at someone at 65 or 71, you you might assume some of it is 71, you you might assume some of it is 71, you you might assume some of it is that they've bought into this great that they've bought into this great that they've bought into this great American lie of retirement. But but the American lie of retirement. But but the American lie of retirement. But but the prime working age defies the imagination prime working age defies the imagination prime working age defies the imagination and it is very connected to a lot of and it is very connected to a lot of and it is very connected to a lot of what's happening in our own political what's happening in our own political what's happening in our own political story right now, our social, our story right now, our social, our story right now, our social, our cultural dynamic, the so-called cultural dynamic, the so-called cultural dynamic, the so-called disgruntled young men. and we have the disgruntled young men. and we have the disgruntled young men. and we have the highest percentage of men living at home highest percentage of men living at home highest percentage of men living at home until they're age 30 we've ever had. Um until they're age 30 we've ever had. Um until they're age 30 we've ever had. Um there there is a really significant there there is a really significant there there is a really significant problem and it isn't the problem we had problem and it isn't the problem we had problem and it isn't the problem we had a hundred years ago of unemployment of a hundred years ago of unemployment of a hundred years ago of unemployment of men looking for work and not being able

men looking for work and not being able men looking for work and not being able to find it which is itself a huge social to find it which is itself a huge social to find it which is itself a huge social ill and a problem but it is a ill and a problem but it is a ill and a problem but it is a categorically different problem than categorically different problem than categorically different problem than when you have the jobs but don't have when you have the jobs but don't have when you have the jobs but don't have the workers and and I think that it the workers and and I think that it the workers and and I think that it connects to the um marryability of a lot connects to the um marryability of a lot connects to the um marryability of a lot of the men and then that dovetales into of the men and then that dovetales into of the men and then that dovetales into a feedback loop. I find men to be a feedback loop. I find men to be a feedback loop. I find men to be largely employable when they are largely employable when they are largely employable when they are marryable and I find them to be largely marryable and I find them to be largely marryable and I find them to be largely marryable when they are employable. And marryable when they are employable. And marryable when they are employable. And so there's both a family and so there's both a family and so there's both a family and professional dynamic at play. And it's professional dynamic at play. And it's professional dynamic at play. And it's either going to be a a positive feedback either going to be a a positive feedback either going to be a a positive feedback loop or a negative one. And for too many loop or a negative one. And for too many loop or a negative one. And for too many men, it's roughly about 4 million um men, it's roughly about 4 million um men, it's roughly about 4 million um that I think they're caught in a that I think they're caught in a that I think they're caught in a negative feedback loop and and it needs negative feedback loop and and it needs negative feedback loop and and it needs to it needs to be broken. Yeah, that to it needs to be broken. Yeah, that to it needs to be broken. Yeah, that success sequence, job, wife, kids almost success sequence, job, wife, kids almost success sequence, job, wife, kids almost eliminates poverty altogether, eliminates poverty altogether, eliminates poverty altogether, controlling for involving any other controlling for involving any other controlling for involving any other factors. I was working with a think tank factors. I was working with a think tank factors. I was working with a think tank a number of years ago. We were uh a number of years ago. We were uh a number of years ago. We were uh focused here on the state of Alabama.

focused here on the state of Alabama. focused here on the state of Alabama. What was one thing we could all focus What was one thing we could all focus What was one thing we could all focus on? And if we did that one thing, they'd on? And if we did that one thing, they'd on? And if we did that one thing, they'd make the biggest difference for make the biggest difference for make the biggest difference for everything else. And it was something everything else. And it was something everything else. And it was something that everybody could have, not made, not that everybody could have, not made, not that everybody could have, not made, not not everybody, but we could work across not everybody, but we could work across not everybody, but we could work across coalitions on. The number one thing we coalitions on. The number one thing we coalitions on. The number one thing we identified is that we were identified is that we were identified is that we were disproportionately disproportionately disproportionately um large number of men in Alabama of um large number of men in Alabama of um large number of men in Alabama of working age were not working. And we working age were not working. And we working age were not working. And we figured that also had huge effects on figured that also had huge effects on figured that also had huge effects on family formation. And so we and then of family formation. And so we and then of family formation. And so we and then of course the corporate community would be course the corporate community would be course the corporate community would be very happy about that as well. I mean, very happy about that as well. I mean, very happy about that as well. I mean, everybody would benefit. The government everybody would benefit. The government everybody would benefit. The government would benefit. The tax base would would benefit. The tax base would would benefit. The tax base would benefit. Everything. We said if we could benefit. Everything. We said if we could benefit. Everything. We said if we could just get more of those men working, that just get more of those men working, that just get more of those men working, that would solve so many other problems would solve so many other problems would solve so many other problems there. So many things are downstream there. So many things are downstream there. So many things are downstream from that overall problem. Uh we'll come from that overall problem. Uh we'll come from that overall problem. Uh we'll come back to some of that, but I want to take back to some of that, but I want to take back to some of that, but I want to take one more step back and just say even in one more step back and just say even in one more step back and just say even in a very personal way, not just what a very personal way, not just what a very personal way, not just what difference does reformed theology make difference does reformed theology make difference does reformed theology make for work, but David, what difference for work, but David, what difference for work, but David, what difference does reformed theology make in your does reformed theology make in your does reformed theology make in your work? work? work? >> Well, that it's it's a great question. I >> Well, that it's it's a great question. I >> Well, that it's it's a great question. I am a very distinctly reformed person and am a very distinctly reformed person and am a very distinctly reformed person and my own Calvinism and subsequent my own Calvinism and subsequent my own Calvinism and subsequent Hyperionism is connected more to more Hyperionism is connected more to more Hyperionism is connected more to more than just my view of salvation and the than just my view of salvation and the than just my view of salvation and the doctrines of grace. And when I think doctrines of grace. And when I think doctrines of grace. And when I think about a world and life view of about a world and life view of about a world and life view of Christianity, Christianity, Christianity, um I think one of the most profoundly um I think one of the most profoundly um I think one of the most profoundly underrated components of the Reformation underrated components of the Reformation underrated components of the Reformation is how it took down the sacred secular is how it took down the sacred secular is how it took down the sacred secular distinction. that in the priesthood of distinction. that in the priesthood of distinction. that in the priesthood of all believers and in a sort of

all believers and in a sort of all believers and in a sort of anti-duelism anti-duelism anti-duelism that both uh Luther and Calvin were so that both uh Luther and Calvin were so that both uh Luther and Calvin were so incredibly committed to, you really do incredibly committed to, you really do incredibly committed to, you really do tear down the genesis of believing that tear down the genesis of believing that tear down the genesis of believing that work is itself a byproduct of the fall, work is itself a byproduct of the fall, work is itself a byproduct of the fall, not of creation. and that there is such not of creation. and that there is such not of creation. and that there is such thing as secular vocation that is thing as secular vocation that is thing as secular vocation that is inherently inferior to um the work that inherently inferior to um the work that inherently inferior to um the work that one may do in let's call it a clergy one may do in let's call it a clergy one may do in let's call it a clergy position or mission position or church position or mission position or church position or mission position or church you know uh calling. So in in reformed you know uh calling. So in in reformed you know uh calling. So in in reformed theology, this um focus on the uh theology, this um focus on the uh theology, this um focus on the uh priesthood of all believers and and this priesthood of all believers and and this priesthood of all believers and and this notion that all of this work that we're notion that all of this work that we're notion that all of this work that we're doing is part of the kingdom. I I think doing is part of the kingdom. I I think doing is part of the kingdom. I I think it allows me to fully appreciate, you it allows me to fully appreciate, you it allows me to fully appreciate, you know, it's true. I subsequently know, it's true. I subsequently know, it's true. I subsequently after already kind of having this basic after already kind of having this basic after already kind of having this basic concept down, I subsequently adopted a concept down, I subsequently adopted a concept down, I subsequently adopted a really full orbed Kyperian understanding really full orbed Kyperian understanding really full orbed Kyperian understanding of it and what it means for culture. you of it and what it means for culture. you of it and what it means for culture. you know that that uh our work having been know that that uh our work having been know that that uh our work having been tainted by the fall like all of nature tainted by the fall like all of nature tainted by the fall like all of nature was because of sin that it basically now was because of sin that it basically now was because of sin that it basically now means that if you believe God is means that if you believe God is means that if you believe God is redeeming all these things to himself redeeming all these things to himself redeeming all these things to himself that includes our work but there are that includes our work but there are that includes our work but there are cultural artifacts that um are not fully

cultural artifacts that um are not fully cultural artifacts that um are not fully ruined by the fall but in fact are going ruined by the fall but in fact are going ruined by the fall but in fact are going to be restored by grace and I think it to be restored by grace and I think it to be restored by grace and I think it puts a really important spirit spiritual puts a really important spirit spiritual puts a really important spirit spiritual dimension on the work that we do and and dimension on the work that we do and and dimension on the work that we do and and it's enabled me to understand that the it's enabled me to understand that the it's enabled me to understand that the work we do in producing goods and work we do in producing goods and work we do in producing goods and services that meet the needs of humanity services that meet the needs of humanity services that meet the needs of humanity is not only part of God's kingdom but it is not only part of God's kingdom but it is not only part of God's kingdom but it is the part of his kingdom that he is the part of his kingdom that he is the part of his kingdom that he created us specifically to do it we in created us specifically to do it we in created us specifically to do it we in the division of labor in his eternal the division of labor in his eternal the division of labor in his eternal plan um you know we have an iPhone and plan um you know we have an iPhone and plan um you know we have an iPhone and we are recording this right now video, we are recording this right now video, we are recording this right now video, Zoom technology and sitting in office Zoom technology and sitting in office Zoom technology and sitting in office buildings and whatnot that were all a buildings and whatnot that were all a buildings and whatnot that were all a byproduct of human ingenuity, human byproduct of human ingenuity, human byproduct of human ingenuity, human addition to the raw materials of the addition to the raw materials of the addition to the raw materials of the earth. And I and I do appreciate these earth. And I and I do appreciate these earth. And I and I do appreciate these things economically and I do appreciate things economically and I do appreciate things economically and I do appreciate them, you know, I guess you could say them, you know, I guess you could say them, you know, I guess you could say even scientifically, but the reformed even scientifically, but the reformed even scientifically, but the reformed perspective enables me to appreciate it perspective enables me to appreciate it perspective enables me to appreciate it theologically. And and I believe that theologically. And and I believe that theologically. And and I believe that when folks think about what it means to when folks think about what it means to when folks think about what it means to be reformed, be reformed, be reformed, um not I really believe that there is um not I really believe that there is um not I really believe that there is something in this message at at tearing something in this message at at tearing something in this message at at tearing down that uh sacred secular dichotomy down that uh sacred secular dichotomy down that uh sacred secular dichotomy that is an underrated element of our that is an underrated element of our that is an underrated element of our reformed distinctives.

reformed distinctives. reformed distinctives. >> Tim Keller, another reformed theologian >> Tim Keller, another reformed theologian >> Tim Keller, another reformed theologian here, gets credit in your here, gets credit in your here, gets credit in your acknowledgements. How did he influence acknowledgements. How did he influence acknowledgements. How did he influence you? Well, this this book that Tim you? Well, this this book that Tim you? Well, this this book that Tim wrote, um Tim wrote a lot of books that wrote, um Tim wrote a lot of books that wrote, um Tim wrote a lot of books that that influenced me a great deal or that that influenced me a great deal or that that influenced me a great deal or that edified me a great deal. And I and I've edified me a great deal. And I and I've edified me a great deal. And I and I've spoken publicly about a lot of them, but spoken publicly about a lot of them, but spoken publicly about a lot of them, but every good endeavor was unique because every good endeavor was unique because every good endeavor was unique because at the time that I read it, I thought I at the time that I read it, I thought I at the time that I read it, I thought I had read every book in Christendom about had read every book in Christendom about had read every book in Christendom about um vocational theology or calling or or um vocational theology or calling or or um vocational theology or calling or or something that was attempting to give something that was attempting to give something that was attempting to give Christians a message about work. And Christians a message about work. And Christians a message about work. And there and there's been plenty of books there and there's been plenty of books there and there's been plenty of books out there and I don't want to suggest out there and I don't want to suggest out there and I don't want to suggest that there were no good ones until that there were no good ones until that there were no good ones until Endeavor cuz I think there were. But it Endeavor cuz I think there were. But it Endeavor cuz I think there were. But it was definitely the first book I read, was definitely the first book I read, was definitely the first book I read, let alone one of a bit more high-profile let alone one of a bit more high-profile let alone one of a bit more high-profile and and whatnot, that was getting to an and and whatnot, that was getting to an and and whatnot, that was getting to an underlying theological message and underlying theological message and underlying theological message and apologetic for work. And I appreciated apologetic for work. And I appreciated apologetic for work. And I appreciated uh that Tim was doing it in the context uh that Tim was doing it in the context uh that Tim was doing it in the context of his own pastoral ministry in New York of his own pastoral ministry in New York of his own pastoral ministry in New York City and that it was rooted to certain City and that it was rooted to certain City and that it was rooted to certain creational distinctives. Um, it was not creational distinctives. Um, it was not creational distinctives. Um, it was not merely focused on a defense of merely focused on a defense of merely focused on a defense of professional ambition, but it was done professional ambition, but it was done professional ambition, but it was done in a way that really allowed for this in a way that really allowed for this in a way that really allowed for this sort of um found creational foundation sort of um found creational foundation sort of um found creational foundation to be there behind what we made do, to be there behind what we made do, to be there behind what we made do, including artists and including including artists and including including artists and including musicians and and a number of other

musicians and and a number of other musicians and and a number of other aspects of, you know, giftedness that aspects of, you know, giftedness that aspects of, you know, giftedness that that would exist in the in the kingdom. that would exist in the in the kingdom. that would exist in the in the kingdom. So, uh, at the time that it came out, I So, uh, at the time that it came out, I So, uh, at the time that it came out, I didn't think that there was anything didn't think that there was anything didn't think that there was anything else like it, but it also was clear to else like it, but it also was clear to else like it, but it also was clear to me, and I talk about this in my book, me, and I talk about this in my book, me, and I talk about this in my book, that he he didn't really go um directly that he he didn't really go um directly that he he didn't really go um directly into the subject of uh money in the book into the subject of uh money in the book into the subject of uh money in the book where where there may be propriety or where where there may be propriety or where where there may be propriety or impropriety around someone working impropriety around someone working impropriety around someone working harder for the purpose of more material harder for the purpose of more material harder for the purpose of more material advancement. advancement. advancement. And in in conversations I had with him And in in conversations I had with him And in in conversations I had with him over the years, it was clear to me that over the years, it was clear to me that over the years, it was clear to me that the reason for that was intentional, the reason for that was intentional, the reason for that was intentional, that he was pastorally working with a that he was pastorally working with a that he was pastorally working with a congregation in a community that was not congregation in a community that was not congregation in a community that was not short in on ambition. [laughter] short in on ambition. [laughter] short in on ambition. [laughter] And and and so the evangelical landscape And and and so the evangelical landscape And and and so the evangelical landscape of America that I was seeing and of America that I was seeing and of America that I was seeing and interacting with was one of people interacting with was one of people interacting with was one of people constantly heiring on the side of constantly heiring on the side of constantly heiring on the side of non-ambition mediocrity. You talk about non-ambition mediocrity. You talk about non-ambition mediocrity. You talk about that in the book.

that in the book. that in the book. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And and so I >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And and so I >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. And and so I really kind of understood the pastoral really kind of understood the pastoral really kind of understood the pastoral context between behind what Tim context between behind what Tim context between behind what Tim emphasized and didn't emphasize in emphasized and didn't emphasize in emphasized and didn't emphasize in Endeavor. and and so it became a really Endeavor. and and so it became a really Endeavor. and and so it became a really um useful book for me. It was very um useful book for me. It was very um useful book for me. It was very formative and reinforcing and yet I also formative and reinforcing and yet I also formative and reinforcing and yet I also felt that there was a couple angles and felt that there was a couple angles and felt that there was a couple angles and approaches in my treatment of the approaches in my treatment of the approaches in my treatment of the subject that that I wanted to address subject that that I wanted to address subject that that I wanted to address that that Tim didn't in that book. that that Tim didn't in that book. that that Tim didn't in that book. >> Yeah, I agree. You also have the >> Yeah, I agree. You also have the >> Yeah, I agree. You also have the challenge pastorally with the partiality challenge pastorally with the partiality challenge pastorally with the partiality warnings and James and things like that warnings and James and things like that warnings and James and things like that that make money really confusing and that make money really confusing and that make money really confusing and difficult for a lot of pastors to be difficult for a lot of pastors to be difficult for a lot of pastors to be able to talk about. Um, one of the more able to talk about. Um, one of the more able to talk about. Um, one of the more interesting parts, my guest again here interesting parts, my guest again here interesting parts, my guest again here is David Bonson. We're talking about his is David Bonson. We're talking about his is David Bonson. We're talking about his book full-time work and the meaning of book full-time work and the meaning of book full-time work and the meaning of life. Uh, you reject the false dichotomy life. Uh, you reject the false dichotomy life. Uh, you reject the false dichotomy between family and career ambition. And between family and career ambition. And between family and career ambition. And I think many people see them as a zero I think many people see them as a zero I think many people see them as a zero sum game. We have limited hours. You can sum game. We have limited hours. You can sum game. We have limited hours. You can only spend one or the other. A lot of only spend one or the other. A lot of only spend one or the other. A lot of these dynamics are generational. Um, I'm these dynamics are generational. Um, I'm these dynamics are generational. Um, I'm at the the kind of front end of the at the the kind of front end of the at the the kind of front end of the millennials and the millennials famously millennials and the millennials famously millennials and the millennials famously fathers spend a lot of time with their fathers spend a lot of time with their fathers spend a lot of time with their kids, much more so than some some older kids, much more so than some some older kids, much more so than some some older generations. And so I think when a lot generations. And so I think when a lot generations. And so I think when a lot of conversations I have are about with of conversations I have are about with of conversations I have are about with ambitious men who work hard and have a ambitious men who work hard and have a ambitious men who work hard and have a lot of responsibility in their jobs lot of responsibility in their jobs lot of responsibility in their jobs feeling a lot of guilt about how they feeling a lot of guilt about how they feeling a lot of guilt about how they should be home more often or they should should be home more often or they should should be home more often or they should be doing more, you know, help there. I

be doing more, you know, help there. I be doing more, you know, help there. I think about my own dad or I think about think about my own dad or I think about think about my own dad or I think about my father-in-law, there wasn't that same my father-in-law, there wasn't that same my father-in-law, there wasn't that same guilt for them and I didn't necessarily guilt for them and I didn't necessarily guilt for them and I didn't necessarily have that expectation. Um, so I'm just have that expectation. Um, so I'm just have that expectation. Um, so I'm just wondering, are you saying that we wondering, are you saying that we wondering, are you saying that we shouldn't worry as much about spending shouldn't worry as much about spending shouldn't worry as much about spending maybe even not very much time with our maybe even not very much time with our maybe even not very much time with our family or what exactly is the message family or what exactly is the message family or what exactly is the message you want to communicate here? you want to communicate here? you want to communicate here? >> Yeah, I think that the issue I'm trying >> Yeah, I think that the issue I'm trying >> Yeah, I think that the issue I'm trying to get people to understand is first of to get people to understand is first of to get people to understand is first of all, um, it is a question of finite all, um, it is a question of finite all, um, it is a question of finite limitations. limitations. limitations. Um, you mentioned time, but I would add Um, you mentioned time, but I would add Um, you mentioned time, but I would add space. I can't be at my kids soccer space. I can't be at my kids soccer space. I can't be at my kids soccer practice and in the office at the same practice and in the office at the same practice and in the office at the same time. So, I'm limited physically. And time. So, I'm limited physically. And time. So, I'm limited physically. And then, of course, the the time constraint then, of course, the the time constraint then, of course, the the time constraint that there's a certain amount of hours that there's a certain amount of hours that there's a certain amount of hours in the day. There's a certain amount of in the day. There's a certain amount of in the day. There's a certain amount of hours needed for family responsibility, hours needed for family responsibility, hours needed for family responsibility, for home responsibility, and for work for home responsibility, and for work for home responsibility, and for work responsibility. So Christians of all responsibility. So Christians of all responsibility. So Christians of all ages will struggle with the wisdom that ages will struggle with the wisdom that ages will struggle with the wisdom that goes into that asset allocation. How I'm goes into that asset allocation. How I'm goes into that asset allocation. How I'm going to divide up my time. And I going to divide up my time. And I going to divide up my time. And I believe that first of all the default believe that first of all the default believe that first of all the default position from pulpits has largely been position from pulpits has largely been position from pulpits has largely been whenever this comes up just air on the whenever this comes up just air on the whenever this comes up just air on the side of family, side of family, side of family, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Should I go to the soccer practice or >> Should I go to the soccer practice or >> Should I go to the soccer practice or leave the office? Go to the soccer leave the office? Go to the soccer leave the office? Go to the soccer practice. should you know it it it they practice. should you know it it it they practice. should you know it it it they may not say it quite that way but I I may not say it quite that way but I I may not say it quite that way but I I think most people would be hardressed to think most people would be hardressed to think most people would be hardressed to attend to regularly attend evangelical attend to regularly attend evangelical attend to regularly attend evangelical pulpit and not get that impression. I pulpit and not get that impression. I pulpit and not get that impression. I think it is I think it is explicit. In think it is I think it is explicit. In think it is I think it is explicit. In fact there's also a change in practice fact there's also a change in practice fact there's also a change in practice among pastors where pastors are not are among pastors where pastors are not are among pastors where pastors are not are spending more time themselves in those spending more time themselves in those spending more time themselves in those activities and not missing church activities and not missing church activities and not missing church activities instead. So that's I think activities instead. So that's I think activities instead. So that's I think shifted there as well. I I totally agree shifted there as well. I I totally agree shifted there as well. I I totally agree and I have a chapter in the book about and I have a chapter in the book about and I have a chapter in the book about where I think a lot of the agenda that where I think a lot of the agenda that where I think a lot of the agenda that comes from the pulpits these days may comes from the pulpits these days may comes from the pulpits these days may very well be influenced by the fact that very well be influenced by the fact that very well be influenced by the fact that it reflects often how the pastors it reflects often how the pastors it reflects often how the pastors themselves are more and more um living themselves are more and more um living themselves are more and more um living and operating and so forth. And again, and operating and so forth. And again, and operating and so forth. And again, it's difficult because you don't want to it's difficult because you don't want to it's difficult because you don't want to be guilty of a hasty generalization. And be guilty of a hasty generalization. And be guilty of a hasty generalization. And I'm well aware that there are some I'm well aware that there are some I'm well aware that there are some pastors who are nowhere near guilty of pastors who are nowhere near guilty of pastors who are nowhere near guilty of this, but I believe a lot are. And and this, but I believe a lot are. And and this, but I believe a lot are. And and so I I I do sort of appeal to the work so I I I do sort of appeal to the work so I I I do sort of appeal to the work ethic of my late father who who was the ethic of my late father who who was the ethic of my late father who who was the model for me in this. There are model for me in this. There are model for me in this. There are tremendous sacrifices he had to make for tremendous sacrifices he had to make for tremendous sacrifices he had to make for the family that were a byproduct the family that were a byproduct the family that were a byproduct of what he believed about his pastoral of what he believed about his pastoral of what he believed about his pastoral duty and calling. And those things in my duty and calling. And those things in my duty and calling. And those things in my mind were not a sacrifice to the family.

mind were not a sacrifice to the family. mind were not a sacrifice to the family. They were a gift to the family. that the They were a gift to the family. that the They were a gift to the family. that the imagery I have of my father being at his imagery I have of my father being at his imagery I have of my father being at his study in his desk working early in the study in his desk working early in the study in his desk working early in the morning every single day of his life was morning every single day of his life was morning every single day of his life was an inspiration to me and an influence to an inspiration to me and an influence to an inspiration to me and an influence to me a model for me as to what kind of me a model for me as to what kind of me a model for me as to what kind of worker and thinker um and believer I worker and thinker um and believer I worker and thinker um and believer I wanted to be but when you talk about the wanted to be but when you talk about the wanted to be but when you talk about the generational division of this I think generational division of this I think generational division of this I think it's really important to realize that it's really important to realize that it's really important to realize that much of what we see in some of the much of what we see in some of the much of what we see in some of the younger generations that are leaning younger generations that are leaning younger generations that are leaning more into more family time and are more into more family time and are more into more family time and are resentful of of how much time their uh resentful of of how much time their uh resentful of of how much time their uh either Gen X or baby boomer parents may either Gen X or baby boomer parents may either Gen X or baby boomer parents may have spent working. A lot of it is I do have spent working. A lot of it is I do have spent working. A lot of it is I do not give the boomers all the credit for not give the boomers all the credit for not give the boomers all the credit for how hard they worked because I believe how hard they worked because I believe how hard they worked because I believe that they were the hardest working that they were the hardest working that they were the hardest working generation in human history and that generation in human history and that generation in human history and that they produced more goods and services they produced more goods and services they produced more goods and services than any generation in history. But I than any generation in history. But I than any generation in history. But I believe that they w often did it believe that they w often did it believe that they w often did it accompanied by a transactional spirit accompanied by a transactional spirit accompanied by a transactional spirit that I you have food on the table that I you have food on the table that I you have food on the table because I went to work all day or or because I went to work all day or or because I went to work all day or or worse, I went to work all day so you worse, I went to work all day so you worse, I went to work all day so you could have food on the table. And what could have food on the table. And what could have food on the table. And what I'm trying to suggest is that yeah, you I'm trying to suggest is that yeah, you I'm trying to suggest is that yeah, you do want to go to work all day and and do want to go to work all day and and do want to go to work all day and and and and go live out your kingdom purpose and and go live out your kingdom purpose and and go live out your kingdom purpose and it will produce the food that your and it will produce the food that your and it will produce the food that your children eat. But you're not doing it children eat. But you're not doing it children eat. But you're not doing it merely so that they will have that food.

merely so that they will have that food. merely so that they will have that food. You're doing it because the activity You're doing it because the activity You're doing it because the activity you're doing at work matters. That you you're doing at work matters. That you you're doing at work matters. That you are serving others through the work and are serving others through the work and are serving others through the work and you are living out your God- orained you are living out your God- orained you are living out your God- orained purpose. And that there is this purpose. And that there is this purpose. And that there is this transitive activity in our work whereby transitive activity in our work whereby transitive activity in our work whereby we um produce some function goods or we um produce some function goods or we um produce some function goods or services that benefit others. And God services that benefit others. And God services that benefit others. And God cares about us as a worker. He cares cares about us as a worker. He cares cares about us as a worker. He cares about those being served by our work. about those being served by our work. about those being served by our work. And he cares about the work in between And he cares about the work in between And he cares about the work in between us and the um object that we are us and the um object that we are us and the um object that we are serving. And that matters to our serving. And that matters to our serving. And that matters to our families. And and so there is a wisdom families. And and so there is a wisdom families. And and so there is a wisdom that I think a lot of people today are that I think a lot of people today are that I think a lot of people today are looking for when they use phrases that looking for when they use phrases that looking for when they use phrases that I'm very critical of like work life I'm very critical of like work life I'm very critical of like work life balance. They're looking for a formula balance. They're looking for a formula balance. They're looking for a formula as to how much what time do I leave the as to how much what time do I leave the as to how much what time do I leave the office? How much time am I supposed to office? How much time am I supposed to office? How much time am I supposed to be at work? Um you know what what can my be at work? Um you know what what can my be at work? Um you know what what can my employer really expect of me when I'm employer really expect of me when I'm employer really expect of me when I'm doing at home or on vacation? And I doing at home or on vacation? And I doing at home or on vacation? And I admit that technology has made this all admit that technology has made this all admit that technology has made this all very difficult.

very difficult. very difficult. Um, my dad worked around the clock, but Um, my dad worked around the clock, but Um, my dad worked around the clock, but he didn't have email going off on his he didn't have email going off on his he didn't have email going off on his phone every two seconds like we do. So, phone every two seconds like we do. So, phone every two seconds like we do. So, so there are needs for boundaries and so there are needs for boundaries and so there are needs for boundaries and wisdom and and and whatnot. But what I wisdom and and and whatnot. But what I wisdom and and and whatnot. But what I try to suggest in the book is that try to suggest in the book is that try to suggest in the book is that rather than formulize this or believe in rather than formulize this or believe in rather than formulize this or believe in the myth that each day is supposed to the myth that each day is supposed to the myth that each day is supposed to have the same level of have the same level of have the same level of compartmentalization compartmentalization compartmentalization to accept the fact that there will be to accept the fact that there will be to accept the fact that there will be days in which we are to leave the office days in which we are to leave the office days in which we are to leave the office and go deal with something with one of and go deal with something with one of and go deal with something with one of our kids. And there will be days where our kids. And there will be days where our kids. And there will be days where we're supposed to miss one of our kids we're supposed to miss one of our kids we're supposed to miss one of our kids events and be working late at the office events and be working late at the office events and be working late at the office for on a particular project or or what for on a particular project or or what for on a particular project or or what closing a deal or whatever you know the closing a deal or whatever you know the closing a deal or whatever you know the case may be. And I think that we put an case may be. And I think that we put an case may be. And I think that we put an artificial constraint on ourselves that artificial constraint on ourselves that artificial constraint on ourselves that we operate as if they're supposed to be we operate as if they're supposed to be we operate as if they're supposed to be this perfect compartmentalization when this perfect compartmentalization when this perfect compartmentalization when in fact um there's a seasonality to in fact um there's a seasonality to in fact um there's a seasonality to these things in our lives. And if you these things in our lives. And if you these things in our lives. And if you believe as I do that in the domain of believe as I do that in the domain of believe as I do that in the domain of God's kingdom are really important God's kingdom are really important God's kingdom are really important spheres like family, like church, like spheres like family, like church, like spheres like family, like church, like community, but also like our community, but also like our community, but also like our professional endeavors. The one thing I professional endeavors. The one thing I professional endeavors. The one thing I would just plead to people not to do is would just plead to people not to do is would just plead to people not to do is to pit those things against one another.

to pit those things against one another. to pit those things against one another. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate that. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate that. >> Yeah. No, I appreciate that. One thing that's a challenge I see One thing that's a challenge I see One thing that's a challenge I see vocationally is that some jobs lend vocationally is that some jobs lend vocationally is that some jobs lend themselves toward the extremes. Ministry themselves toward the extremes. Ministry themselves toward the extremes. Ministry is one of them. My dad is just in the is one of them. My dad is just in the is one of them. My dad is just in the process of retiring as a farmer. process of retiring as a farmer. process of retiring as a farmer. Agriculture similar to this. My mother Agriculture similar to this. My mother Agriculture similar to this. My mother was a public school teacher uh for her was a public school teacher uh for her was a public school teacher uh for her career very similar. Also, they tend to career very similar. Also, they tend to career very similar. Also, they tend to attract people on the extremes. If you attract people on the extremes. If you attract people on the extremes. If you work too much, you'll like any of those work too much, you'll like any of those work too much, you'll like any of those jobs cuz they never come close to being jobs cuz they never come close to being jobs cuz they never come close to being done. Um, if you don't like to work, done. Um, if you don't like to work, done. Um, if you don't like to work, those jobs actually work pretty well for those jobs actually work pretty well for those jobs actually work pretty well for you, too. Agriculture a little less so, you, too. Agriculture a little less so, you, too. Agriculture a little less so, but you still don't have to go out there but you still don't have to go out there but you still don't have to go out there early in the morning all the time. Not early in the morning all the time. Not early in the morning all the time. Not if you don't want to. You don't have to if you don't want to. You don't have to if you don't want to. You don't have to make everything look nice. You don't make everything look nice. You don't make everything look nice. You don't have to do a great job. You'll be able have to do a great job. You'll be able have to do a great job. You'll be able to skirt by. You might get some to skirt by. You might get some to skirt by. You might get some assistance from some source or another. assistance from some source or another. assistance from some source or another. But one challenge I see usually cuz I'm But one challenge I see usually cuz I'm But one challenge I see usually cuz I'm working in ministry is I tell people it working in ministry is I tell people it working in ministry is I tell people it attracts people who work too much and it attracts people who work too much and it attracts people who work too much and it attracts people who work too little and attracts people who work too little and attracts people who work too little and finding and they'll often be in the same finding and they'll often be in the same finding and they'll often be in the same building and on the same staff. I know building and on the same staff. I know building and on the same staff. I know there's other jobs but it's not like there's other jobs but it's not like there's other jobs but it's not like certain jobs where there's a minimum certain jobs where there's a minimum certain jobs where there's a minimum that everybody has to rise to more like that everybody has to rise to more like that everybody has to rise to more like your your profession. No doubt you'll your your profession. No doubt you'll your your profession. No doubt you'll get weeded out really quickly. Not so get weeded out really quickly. Not so get weeded out really quickly. Not so much in ministry. I mean, it's a place much in ministry. I mean, it's a place much in ministry. I mean, it's a place to hide if you don't want to work, but to hide if you don't want to work, but to hide if you don't want to work, but it's also a place where it's easy to do it's also a place where it's easy to do it's also a place where it's easy to do too much. That's one thing that Tim too much. That's one thing that Tim too much. That's one thing that Tim Keller and I talked about because he was Keller and I talked about because he was Keller and I talked about because he was one of those guys who tended to work too one of those guys who tended to work too one of those guys who tended to work too much. Um, speaking of productivity, much. Um, speaking of productivity, much. Um, speaking of productivity, um, I mean, Dave, you are very um, I mean, Dave, you are very um, I mean, Dave, you are very productive. Is there a secret the rest

productive. Is there a secret the rest productive. Is there a secret the rest of us can learn from what you were able of us can learn from what you were able of us can learn from what you were able to accomplish? Well, I first of all, I to accomplish? Well, I first of all, I to accomplish? Well, I first of all, I appreciate that. It's a very kind appreciate that. It's a very kind appreciate that. It's a very kind compliment. I I think that um I I've compliment. I I think that um I I've compliment. I I think that um I I've benefited from the fact that I uh was benefited from the fact that I uh was benefited from the fact that I uh was made by God to be a mourning person and made by God to be a mourning person and made by God to be a mourning person and and and I don't know that everyone is and and I don't know that everyone is and and I don't know that everyone is necessarily naturally wired that way. So necessarily naturally wired that way. So necessarily naturally wired that way. So I don't really ever wear it as a badge I don't really ever wear it as a badge I don't really ever wear it as a badge of honor like there there's some unique of honor like there there's some unique of honor like there there's some unique virtue in me. I'm just sort of a little virtue in me. I'm just sort of a little virtue in me. I'm just sort of a little fortunate that I really do enjoy the fortunate that I really do enjoy the fortunate that I really do enjoy the early morning hours. And I think that early morning hours. And I think that early morning hours. And I think that there there's some truth to the old there there's some truth to the old there there's some truth to the old cliches, cliches, cliches, you know, that there's a quiet to the you know, that there's a quiet to the you know, that there's a quiet to the morning and there's a stillness and the morning and there's a stillness and the morning and there's a stillness and the fact that the rest of the world is fact that the rest of the world is fact that the rest of the world is generally still asleep gives you a leg generally still asleep gives you a leg generally still asleep gives you a leg up to to get more done. A lot of my work up to to get more done. A lot of my work up to to get more done. A lot of my work does involve research, reading, and does involve research, reading, and does involve research, reading, and writing. writing. writing. >> And I'm hopeless to do any of that after >> And I'm hopeless to do any of that after >> And I'm hopeless to do any of that after about 7 in the morning. So I mean about 7 in the morning. So I mean about 7 in the morning. So I mean because once the day gets going with because once the day gets going with because once the day gets going with meetings and markets being open and and meetings and markets being open and and meetings and markets being open and and client interactions and dealing with my client interactions and dealing with my client interactions and dealing with my team and whatnot, you know, I have a team and whatnot, you know, I have a team and whatnot, you know, I have a pretty crazy chaotic day. And so that uh pretty crazy chaotic day. And so that uh pretty crazy chaotic day. And so that uh quiet of the morning to do more quiet of the morning to do more quiet of the morning to do more concentrated reading and writing and concentrated reading and writing and concentrated reading and writing and research is really important. So that research is really important. So that research is really important. So that that's probably uh uh the best secret.

that's probably uh uh the best secret. that's probably uh uh the best secret. But there's so many people out there But there's so many people out there But there's so many people out there that have various how-to suggestions that have various how-to suggestions that have various how-to suggestions around time management and and I and around time management and and I and around time management and and I and I've gotten a lot better over the years I've gotten a lot better over the years I've gotten a lot better over the years just because I'm older at at learning to just because I'm older at at learning to just because I'm older at at learning to avoid wasteful behaviors and to and to avoid wasteful behaviors and to and to avoid wasteful behaviors and to and to steward my time well. But I think I steward my time well. But I think I steward my time well. But I think I think uh another piece to this when we think uh another piece to this when we think uh another piece to this when we talk about juxtaposing it with the type talk about juxtaposing it with the type talk about juxtaposing it with the type of family men we want to be. So so I'm a of family men we want to be. So so I'm a of family men we want to be. So so I'm a husband and a father. I have three husband and a father. I have three husband and a father. I have three children and and my kids at one point, children and and my kids at one point, children and and my kids at one point, you know, were were uh five, two, and you know, were were uh five, two, and you know, were were uh five, two, and zero and and now they're, you know, 20, zero and and now they're, you know, 20, zero and and now they're, you know, 20, 18, and 15. It it's different 18, and 15. It it's different 18, and 15. It it's different responsibilities, different time responsibilities, different time responsibilities, different time commitments that go into it at different commitments that go into it at different commitments that go into it at different phases. But I really think each person phases. But I really think each person phases. But I really think each person benefits from being intentional about benefits from being intentional about benefits from being intentional about it. One one thing I did is I brought my it. One one thing I did is I brought my it. One one thing I did is I brought my kids to the office on Saturdays when kids to the office on Saturdays when kids to the office on Saturdays when they were little. And it got gave my they were little. And it got gave my they were little. And it got gave my wife a break. She was a stay-at-home mom wife a break. She was a stay-at-home mom wife a break. She was a stay-at-home mom at that time. But then I let the kids at that time. But then I let the kids at that time. But then I let the kids run around and play. I showed them what run around and play. I showed them what run around and play. I showed them what I was doing. I'd get them candy from I was doing. I'd get them candy from I was doing. I'd get them candy from the, you know, the the break room and the, you know, the the break room and the, you know, the the break room and stuff. We'd turn it into kind of a fun stuff. We'd turn it into kind of a fun stuff. We'd turn it into kind of a fun thing and I would have taken them to thing and I would have taken them to thing and I would have taken them to either breakfast or lunch after with dad either breakfast or lunch after with dad either breakfast or lunch after with dad and all that kind of stuff. We made it and all that kind of stuff. We made it and all that kind of stuff. We made it fun. But then I it also gave me a couple fun. But then I it also gave me a couple fun. But then I it also gave me a couple hours at the office and and and we just hours at the office and and and we just hours at the office and and and we just sort of mixed b business and pleasure a sort of mixed b business and pleasure a sort of mixed b business and pleasure a little bit that way. Well, I think too little bit that way. Well, I think too little bit that way. Well, I think too many people have this idea that they're many people have this idea that they're many people have this idea that they're supposed to have a separation of church supposed to have a separation of church supposed to have a separation of church and state with their work and their home

and state with their work and their home and state with their work and their home life. And and I really encourage parents life. And and I really encourage parents life. And and I really encourage parents to talk about their work in front of to talk about their work in front of to talk about their work in front of their kids and as much as possible talk their kids and as much as possible talk their kids and as much as possible talk about it joyfully cuz it's the number about it joyfully cuz it's the number about it joyfully cuz it's the number one thing I feel generationally we're one thing I feel generationally we're one thing I feel generationally we're dealing with is so many people were dealing with is so many people were dealing with is so many people were raised with a negative view of work from raised with a negative view of work from raised with a negative view of work from the way that their parents talked about the way that their parents talked about the way that their parents talked about it. And the curse is real. There is it. And the curse is real. There is it. And the curse is real. There is sweat of our brow. There are challenges sweat of our brow. There are challenges sweat of our brow. There are challenges and stresses that will come up. Um, but and stresses that will come up. Um, but and stresses that will come up. Um, but I really hope that one thing of all the I really hope that one thing of all the I really hope that one thing of all the mistakes I've made as a parent, I hope mistakes I've made as a parent, I hope mistakes I've made as a parent, I hope one thing I did well was talk about work one thing I did well was talk about work one thing I did well was talk about work joyfully in front of my children. joyfully in front of my children. joyfully in front of my children. >> Oh, I really like that. Some jobs are >> Oh, I really like that. Some jobs are >> Oh, I really like that. Some jobs are also similar. Someifications are by also similar. Someifications are by also similar. Someifications are by default family affairs. Ministry is one default family affairs. Ministry is one default family affairs. Ministry is one of those. Public school teaching is of those. Public school teaching is of those. Public school teaching is typically one of those too in my typically one of those too in my typically one of those too in my experience. And then farming is as well. experience. And then farming is as well. experience. And then farming is as well. So, it's interesting to see just as my So, it's interesting to see just as my So, it's interesting to see just as my wife and I were forming a family, the wife and I were forming a family, the wife and I were forming a family, the different expectations we had. I mean, I different expectations we had. I mean, I different expectations we had. I mean, I lived at my dad's workplace. I watched lived at my dad's workplace. I watched lived at my dad's workplace. I watched my dad working. I was expected to be my dad working. I was expected to be my dad working. I was expected to be working with him at all times. My wife's working with him at all times. My wife's working with him at all times. My wife's dad was a surgeon. It's the complete dad was a surgeon. It's the complete dad was a surgeon. It's the complete opposite. She can't help with anything.

opposite. She can't help with anything. opposite. She can't help with anything. She can't go to work. When he's home, She can't go to work. When he's home, She can't go to work. When he's home, he's home. You're not doing anything at he's home. You're not doing anything at he's home. You're not doing anything at home. So, it's interesting. Very home. So, it's interesting. Very home. So, it's interesting. Very different expectations that we had different expectations that we had different expectations that we had through that. I have just a few more through that. I have just a few more through that. I have just a few more questions here with David Bonson talking questions here with David Bonson talking questions here with David Bonson talking about full-time work and the meaning of about full-time work and the meaning of about full-time work and the meaning of life. Um, this is something you hit on life. Um, this is something you hit on life. Um, this is something you hit on in the book. You mentioned the COVID 19 in the book. You mentioned the COVID 19 in the book. You mentioned the COVID 19 2020 background for the book. Something 2020 background for the book. Something 2020 background for the book. Something I think that you've been largely I think that you've been largely I think that you've been largely vindicated by. Why is it so important vindicated by. Why is it so important vindicated by. Why is it so important for work to be done in person? Well, for work to be done in person? Well, for work to be done in person? Well, it's so funny that I thought I wrote a it's so funny that I thought I wrote a it's so funny that I thought I wrote a book that was uh going to be somewhat book that was uh going to be somewhat book that was uh going to be somewhat controversial for its practical advice controversial for its practical advice controversial for its practical advice and its theological message and the fact and its theological message and the fact and its theological message and the fact that it was somewhat hard-hitting on that it was somewhat hard-hitting on that it was somewhat hard-hitting on purpose uh hopefully charitably and and purpose uh hopefully charitably and and purpose uh hopefully charitably and and fairly so, but hard-hitting to pastors fairly so, but hard-hitting to pastors fairly so, but hard-hitting to pastors and churches about this this message you and churches about this this message you and churches about this this message you and I have been talking about. And yet I and I have been talking about. And yet I and I have been talking about. And yet I got more feedback and and uh and and got more feedback and and uh and and got more feedback and and uh and and push back on the appendix of the book push back on the appendix of the book push back on the appendix of the book [laughter] than I did anything in the [laughter] than I did anything in the [laughter] than I did anything in the core 10 chapters. And the appendix was core 10 chapters. And the appendix was core 10 chapters. And the appendix was my apologetic for um working in office.

my apologetic for um working in office. my apologetic for um working in office. And and so you know the first caveat I And and so you know the first caveat I And and so you know the first caveat I always give is we you you're right to always give is we you you're right to always give is we you you're right to contextualize this around the co moment. contextualize this around the co moment. contextualize this around the co moment. I'm not referring to people who always I'm not referring to people who always I'm not referring to people who always had a job that was tailored to being a had a job that was tailored to being a had a job that was tailored to being a work from home situation. And whenever work from home situation. And whenever work from home situation. And whenever someone says, "I've been working from someone says, "I've been working from someone says, "I've been working from home for 30 years. Why are you telling home for 30 years. Why are you telling home for 30 years. Why are you telling me I need to go into an office?" I say, me I need to go into an office?" I say, me I need to go into an office?" I say, "Well, I guess I'm not talking to you "Well, I guess I'm not talking to you "Well, I guess I'm not talking to you then because I'm referring to the then because I'm referring to the then because I'm referring to the context of the COVID moment supposedly context of the COVID moment supposedly context of the COVID moment supposedly revealing something new." revealing something new." revealing something new." And I myself as a conservative believe And I myself as a conservative believe And I myself as a conservative believe sometimes things are new, but it's a sometimes things are new, but it's a sometimes things are new, but it's a high burden that that I conserve the the high burden that that I conserve the the high burden that that I conserve the the lessons of tradition in history and lessons of tradition in history and lessons of tradition in history and unless there's a pretty uh overwhelming unless there's a pretty uh overwhelming unless there's a pretty uh overwhelming reason not to. And people act as if this reason not to. And people act as if this reason not to. And people act as if this notion of us going to work and notion of us going to work and notion of us going to work and interacting with one another in person interacting with one another in person interacting with one another in person that it just came out of nowhere. I that it just came out of nowhere. I that it just came out of nowhere. I mean, it was really, I think, um, a mean, it was really, I think, um, a mean, it was really, I think, um, a design that was tailored to the design that was tailored to the design that was tailored to the realities of a modern professional realities of a modern professional realities of a modern professional economy. And the notion that a lot of 50 economy. And the notion that a lot of 50 economy. And the notion that a lot of 50 year olds and 60-year-olds who were year olds and 60-year-olds who were year olds and 60-year-olds who were themselves mentored in person by senior themselves mentored in person by senior themselves mentored in person by senior people when they were in their 20s and people when they were in their 20s and people when they were in their 20s and 30s and that they now believe those 20 30s and that they now believe those 20 30s and that they now believe those 20 and 30 year olds should be working from and 30 year olds should be working from and 30 year olds should be working from home in in their pajamas and giving and

home in in their pajamas and giving and home in in their pajamas and giving and the 50 and 60-year-old now has the the 50 and 60-year-old now has the the 50 and 60-year-old now has the freedom to go work from their boat or freedom to go work from their boat or freedom to go work from their boat or from the golf course or you know from from the golf course or you know from from the golf course or you know from their vacation home and all this type of their vacation home and all this type of their vacation home and all this type of stuff. It's not just at that level of stuff. It's not just at that level of stuff. It's not just at that level of economic strata either. I mean we economic strata either. I mean we economic strata either. I mean we there's all kinds of analogies that there's all kinds of analogies that there's all kinds of analogies that might be different. But my point is that might be different. But my point is that might be different. But my point is that we need to take seriously the notion of we need to take seriously the notion of we need to take seriously the notion of collaboration collaboration collaboration being um a personal activity that many being um a personal activity that many being um a personal activity that many um jobs uh optimize doing so face to um jobs uh optimize doing so face to um jobs uh optimize doing so face to face. that there's a limitation to what face. that there's a limitation to what face. that there's a limitation to what can be done and and you're you you're can be done and and you're you you're can be done and and you're you you're right on the vindication side at the right on the vindication side at the right on the vindication side at the time I wrote that you still had the the time I wrote that you still had the the time I wrote that you still had the the Apples, Amazon's, Microsofts, Facebooks, Apples, Amazon's, Microsofts, Facebooks, Apples, Amazon's, Microsofts, Facebooks, Googles of the world um doing very very Googles of the world um doing very very Googles of the world um doing very very voluntary come to work if at all voluntary come to work if at all voluntary come to work if at all >> just Elon who was really early in on >> just Elon who was really early in on >> just Elon who was really early in on that. that. that. >> That's right. He and he was and a lot of >> That's right. He and he was and a lot of >> That's right. He and he was and a lot of his by the way was also trying to tear his by the way was also trying to tear his by the way was also trying to tear down that socioeconomic down that socioeconomic down that socioeconomic strata because his bluecollar people strata because his bluecollar people strata because his bluecollar people that worked on the assembly line didn't that worked on the assembly line didn't that worked on the assembly line didn't have the option of working from home and have the option of working from home and have the option of working from home and and he was saying it doesn't make sense and he was saying it doesn't make sense and he was saying it doesn't make sense to have the suits say they can be at to have the suits say they can be at to have the suits say they can be at home and and then these other guys on home and and then these other guys on home and and then these other guys on the assembly line it's going to create the assembly line it's going to create the assembly line it's going to create more of this divide and I thought more of this divide and I thought more of this divide and I thought everyone was worried about this divide everyone was worried about this divide everyone was worried about this divide in society and and let's let's all you in society and and let's let's all you in society and and let's let's all you know kind of get up and go to work know kind of get up and go to work know kind of get up and go to work together and I and I thought Elon's together and I and I thought Elon's together and I and I thought Elon's messaging on that was right but but over

messaging on that was right but but over messaging on that was right but but over time more or less everybody is now come time more or less everybody is now come time more or less everybody is now come come around and a lot of it is for very come around and a lot of it is for very come around and a lot of it is for very obvious reasons Colin the companies obvious reasons Colin the companies obvious reasons Colin the companies their own metrics said we're just simply their own metrics said we're just simply their own metrics said we're just simply getting less output when people are not getting less output when people are not getting less output when people are not there the University of Penn the Wharton there the University of Penn the Wharton there the University of Penn the Wharton business school commissioned a study business school commissioned a study business school commissioned a study that was intended to draw a different that was intended to draw a different that was intended to draw a different conclusion and the researchers ended conclusion and the researchers ended conclusion and the researchers ended ended up seeing from the data that no, ended up seeing from the data that no, ended up seeing from the data that no, in fact they were wrong that there was a in fact they were wrong that there was a in fact they were wrong that there was a significant significant significant um delta between the productivity of um delta between the productivity of um delta between the productivity of those that were working in office versus those that were working in office versus those that were working in office versus those who were not. So I again I really those who were not. So I again I really those who were not. So I again I really do understand that some jobs professions do understand that some jobs professions do understand that some jobs professions situations may be different but the situations may be different but the situations may be different but the argument I make in the book is around argument I make in the book is around argument I make in the book is around the co the concept of community and the co the concept of community and the co the concept of community and collaboration collaboration collaboration uh and culture the you know for my uh and culture the you know for my uh and culture the you know for my business our culture means everything to business our culture means everything to business our culture means everything to us it's a very relational business I us it's a very relational business I us it's a very relational business I want younger people older people and and want younger people older people and and want younger people older people and and not just co-workers but even the way we not just co-workers but even the way we not just co-workers but even the way we interact with clients um I fear the interact with clients um I fear the interact with clients um I fear the notion that we want to put more and more notion that we want to put more and more notion that we want to put more and more people in isolation people in isolation people in isolation and I don't think it's good for the and I don't think it's good for the and I don't think it's good for the society and one of the areas in a what society and one of the areas in a what society and one of the areas in a what has been a postmodern decline of has been a postmodern decline of has been a postmodern decline of community community community one of the areas where community has one of the areas where community has one of the areas where community has largely been upheld is in people's work largely been upheld is in people's work largely been upheld is in people's work lives and if we now start further lives and if we now start further lives and if we now start further isolating people in that component I

isolating people in that component I isolating people in that component I think it's unhealthy and I'm I'm think it's unhealthy and I'm I'm think it's unhealthy and I'm I'm grateful to see that that my way of grateful to see that that my way of grateful to see that that my way of viewing this has largely won out a few viewing this has largely won out a few viewing this has largely won out a few years after co years after co years after co >> yeah I've always worked remotely in this >> yeah I've always worked remotely in this >> yeah I've always worked remotely in this job for 15 years and so but and we just job for 15 years and so but and we just job for 15 years and so but and we just haven't had the option otherwise and haven't had the option otherwise and haven't had the option otherwise and especially with recruiting and retention especially with recruiting and retention especially with recruiting and retention of employees makes a big difference of employees makes a big difference of employees makes a big difference being in different locations the nature being in different locations the nature being in different locations the nature of the work in serving the church it of the work in serving the church it of the work in serving the church it actually helps us to be in different actually helps us to be in different actually helps us to be in different regions different churches different regions different churches different regions different churches different denominations and whatnot however your denominations and whatnot however your denominations and whatnot however your arguments have been extremely compelling arguments have been extremely compelling arguments have been extremely compelling to me because what I was blind to is the to me because what I was blind to is the to me because what I was blind to is the fact that everyone else almost everybody fact that everyone else almost everybody fact that everyone else almost everybody else has followed in my wake and so they else has followed in my wake and so they else has followed in my wake and so they have to adjust to me as the person in have to adjust to me as the person in have to adjust to me as the person in charge but I don't but they have not had charge but I don't but they have not had charge but I don't but they have not had the benefit of every of getting to know the benefit of every of getting to know the benefit of every of getting to know everybody the way I have because I was everybody the way I have because I was everybody the way I have because I was here before anybody else. So I' so all here before anybody else. So I' so all here before anybody else. So I' so all of a sudden they're finding it of a sudden they're finding it of a sudden they're finding it difficult. Well, how do I even difficult. Well, how do I even difficult. Well, how do I even understand how things work here? How do understand how things work here? How do understand how things work here? How do I even know who to go to? How do I even I even know who to go to? How do I even I even know who to go to? How do I even relate to people?

relate to people? relate to people? That is way harder than we've made it That is way harder than we've made it That is way harder than we've made it sound in remote work. And for those and sound in remote work. And for those and sound in remote work. And for those and those of us who are ones calling the those of us who are ones calling the those of us who are ones calling the shots are sometimes in the worst shots are sometimes in the worst shots are sometimes in the worst position to be able to make that position to be able to make that position to be able to make that decision. And you helped me to to see decision. And you helped me to to see decision. And you helped me to to see that. I mean, even with a lot of that. I mean, even with a lot of that. I mean, even with a lot of intentionality, it still is very intentionality, it still is very intentionality, it still is very difficult in that environment. Well, I I difficult in that environment. Well, I I difficult in that environment. Well, I I that's a it's a great example and I that's a it's a great example and I that's a it's a great example and I appreciate you sharing that because I appreciate you sharing that because I appreciate you sharing that because I think that um it would be useful for a think that um it would be useful for a think that um it would be useful for a lot of people to go through that very lot of people to go through that very lot of people to go through that very exercise to the extent that someone's exercise to the extent that someone's exercise to the extent that someone's remote work scenario is working well for remote work scenario is working well for remote work scenario is working well for them just to kind of think through what them just to kind of think through what them just to kind of think through what what could I be missing? What have I what could I be missing? What have I what could I be missing? What have I benefited from? Because sometimes benefited from? Because sometimes benefited from? Because sometimes there's a DNA in place that we take for there's a DNA in place that we take for there's a DNA in place that we take for granted that others may not have. And granted that others may not have. And granted that others may not have. And and I and you know, I remember talking and I and you know, I remember talking and I and you know, I remember talking to a friend of mine who's a devout to a friend of mine who's a devout to a friend of mine who's a devout believer and a managing director at believer and a managing director at believer and a managing director at Goldman Sachs uh uh during COVID and and Goldman Sachs uh uh during COVID and and Goldman Sachs uh uh during COVID and and the CEO of Goldman was pretty vocal as the CEO of Goldman was pretty vocal as the CEO of Goldman was pretty vocal as well about getting everyone back to well about getting everyone back to well about getting everyone back to work. And he was uh expressing his own work. And he was uh expressing his own work. And he was uh expressing his own discontent with that decision, saying, discontent with that decision, saying, discontent with that decision, saying, "We've just created our best year of "We've just created our best year of "We've just created our best year of profits ever, our best results. Our profits ever, our best results. Our profits ever, our best results. Our traders with technology are all getting traders with technology are all getting traders with technology are all getting all this stuff done." I said, "Well, all this stuff done." I said, "Well, all this stuff done." I said, "Well, when you say your traders, what do you when you say your traders, what do you when you say your traders, what do you mean?" He explained the trading group.

mean?" He explained the trading group. mean?" He explained the trading group. They'd all worked together 20some years. They'd all worked together 20some years. They'd all worked together 20some years. The research, the interaction. I said, The research, the interaction. I said, The research, the interaction. I said, "Do you see what I'm saying? "Do you see what I'm saying? "Do you see what I'm saying? >> It all you just got done having the best >> It all you just got done having the best >> It all you just got done having the best year you've ever had remotely because year you've ever had remotely because year you've ever had remotely because you had 15 years working together you had 15 years working together you had 15 years working together already already already >> and the next gen's not going to have >> and the next gen's not going to have >> and the next gen's not going to have that." So, there's kind of a DNA there that." So, there's kind of a DNA there that." So, there's kind of a DNA there and you and you you can take it for and you and you you can take it for and you and you you can take it for granted, but I don't think the granted, but I don't think the granted, but I don't think the continuity of the business or or in your continuity of the business or or in your continuity of the business or or in your case, the ministry can take it for case, the ministry can take it for case, the ministry can take it for granted. granted. granted. >> Yeah. I had four years at an actual >> Yeah. I had four years at an actual >> Yeah. I had four years at an actual newsroom. newsroom. newsroom. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um I mean where I'm and I'm going to >> Um I mean where I'm and I'm going to >> Um I mean where I'm and I'm going to lunch with my boss. I'm going to going lunch with my boss. I'm going to going lunch with my boss. I'm going to going to lunch with his boss. That that just to lunch with his boss. That that just to lunch with his boss. That that just doesn't happen in the same way when I'm doesn't happen in the same way when I'm doesn't happen in the same way when I'm I'm hiring folks from all over the place I'm hiring folks from all over the place I'm hiring folks from all over the place now and we maybe see each other if we now and we maybe see each other if we now and we maybe see each other if we can afford it every once in a year or can afford it every once in a year or can afford it every once in a year or something like that. Um I want to sneak something like that. Um I want to sneak something like that. Um I want to sneak in a couple more big picture questions. in a couple more big picture questions. in a couple more big picture questions. They don't have to be long answers, but They don't have to be long answers, but They don't have to be long answers, but they're just I've been wanting to ask they're just I've been wanting to ask they're just I've been wanting to ask you them for a long time. Uh, first, uh, you them for a long time. Uh, first, uh, you them for a long time. Uh, first, uh, you're not shy about voicing your you're not shy about voicing your you're not shy about voicing your political opinions. You don't hesitate political opinions. You don't hesitate political opinions. You don't hesitate to call out any side, but this is what's to call out any side, but this is what's to call out any side, but this is what's amazing to me, David. You actually amazing to me, David. You actually amazing to me, David. You actually maintain the same views that you used to maintain the same views that you used to maintain the same views that you used to hold. Um, I don't see that much today, hold. Um, I don't see that much today, hold. Um, I don't see that much today, but how do you how do you explain that?

but how do you how do you explain that? but how do you how do you explain that? I'm going to answer very graciously. Um, I'm going to answer very graciously. Um, I'm going to answer very graciously. Um, I I do not make my living from political I I do not make my living from political I I do not make my living from political punditry. And I suppose there might be punditry. And I suppose there might be punditry. And I suppose there might be some people out there whose opinions some people out there whose opinions some people out there whose opinions have changed because they feel that have changed because they feel that have changed because they feel that their living has required them to change their living has required them to change their living has required them to change their opinions. their opinions. their opinions. >> I'll let you keep going, but working in >> I'll let you keep going, but working in >> I'll let you keep going, but working in media, it's one thing I have to explain media, it's one thing I have to explain media, it's one thing I have to explain to people all the time. And when I was to people all the time. And when I was to people all the time. And when I was thinking about that, I said, "Well, he thinking about that, I said, "Well, he thinking about that, I said, "Well, he has money." has money." has money." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Makes one big difference. >> Makes one big difference. >> Makes one big difference. >> Yeah. That that I I I don't take it for >> Yeah. That that I I I don't take it for >> Yeah. That that I I I don't take it for granted. I say a lot that um there's granted. I say a lot that um there's granted. I say a lot that um there's people whose opinions have changed and people whose opinions have changed and people whose opinions have changed and it's very disappointing to me and it's very disappointing to me and it's very disappointing to me and sometimes disillusioning sometimes disillusioning sometimes disillusioning but but I also want to try to understand but but I also want to try to understand but but I also want to try to understand either the economic dynamic that they're either the economic dynamic that they're either the economic dynamic that they're in or in some cases the personal, in or in some cases the personal, in or in some cases the personal, emotional, psychological dynamic. I emotional, psychological dynamic. I emotional, psychological dynamic. I won't use any names, but I have a couple won't use any names, but I have a couple won't use any names, but I have a couple friends I was very very close with that friends I was very very close with that friends I was very very close with that are really really hurt by some of the are really really hurt by some of the are really really hurt by some of the things that have transpired over the things that have transpired over the things that have transpired over the last 10 years. And although I would like last 10 years. And although I would like last 10 years. And although I would like to think that I would never change my to think that I would never change my to think that I would never change my opinions just because of the way I was opinions just because of the way I was opinions just because of the way I was treated by other people, um I think in treated by other people, um I think in treated by other people, um I think in some cases it's it it can become a kind some cases it's it it can become a kind some cases it's it it can become a kind of normal human response.

of normal human response. of normal human response. But at a high level, I I um I do believe But at a high level, I I um I do believe But at a high level, I I um I do believe that if you are grounded to certain that if you are grounded to certain that if you are grounded to certain first principles, the way in which I first principles, the way in which I first principles, the way in which I might interpret certain matters of of might interpret certain matters of of might interpret certain matters of of political policy, of economics, uh you political policy, of economics, uh you political policy, of economics, uh you know, just the cultural hotbed issues of know, just the cultural hotbed issues of know, just the cultural hotbed issues of the day. I had a belief system. I've the day. I had a belief system. I've the day. I had a belief system. I've changed my mind on certain issues over changed my mind on certain issues over changed my mind on certain issues over the years. I try to always wrestle with the years. I try to always wrestle with the years. I try to always wrestle with things in good faith, but that but I things in good faith, but that but I things in good faith, but that but I don't think we see a lot of that today. don't think we see a lot of that today. don't think we see a lot of that today. I don't think that what you're I don't think that what you're I don't think that what you're describing is so much people saying,"I describing is so much people saying,"I describing is so much people saying,"I used to really feel strongly about issue used to really feel strongly about issue used to really feel strongly about issue A, but I wrestled with it and now I feel A, but I wrestled with it and now I feel A, but I wrestled with it and now I feel differently." I think most of the shift differently." I think most of the shift differently." I think most of the shift has come about out of some form of has come about out of some form of has come about out of some form of partisanship and and a lot of times very partisanship and and a lot of times very partisanship and and a lot of times very personal um partisanship, not even personal um partisanship, not even personal um partisanship, not even around a party or an ideology, but a a around a party or an ideology, but a a around a party or an ideology, but a a particular individual either um since particular individual either um since particular individual either um since the elephant in the room is we're the elephant in the room is we're the elephant in the room is we're obviously talking about President Trump obviously talking about President Trump obviously talking about President Trump either out of an affinity to him or or a either out of an affinity to him or or a either out of an affinity to him or or a disdain for him. And I do I at this disdain for him. And I do I at this disdain for him. And I do I at this point I'm almost exhausted by the idea point I'm almost exhausted by the idea point I'm almost exhausted by the idea of having to think about what I believe of having to think about what I believe of having to think about what I believe about President Trump before I am about President Trump before I am about President Trump before I am allowed to express what I think about an allowed to express what I think about an allowed to express what I think about an issue. And and so if my uh belief on an issue. And and so if my uh belief on an issue. And and so if my uh belief on an issue happens to be coinciding with what issue happens to be coinciding with what issue happens to be coinciding with what he believes on a given day or or doesn't he believes on a given day or or doesn't he believes on a given day or or doesn't if it's on the opposite side of it, it's if it's on the opposite side of it, it's if it's on the opposite side of it, it's just it's just something I'm very just it's just something I'm very just it's just something I'm very willing to live with.

willing to live with. willing to live with. >> Yeah. I I think economics is the number >> Yeah. I I think economics is the number >> Yeah. I I think economics is the number one area that I see this coming up in. U one area that I see this coming up in. U one area that I see this coming up in. U had a conversation with somebody I'm had a conversation with somebody I'm had a conversation with somebody I'm close to a number of years ago and we close to a number of years ago and we close to a number of years ago and we were arguing over something related to were arguing over something related to were arguing over something related to his business and uh Trump's economic his business and uh Trump's economic his business and uh Trump's economic policies and I was making a fair a a policies and I was making a fair a a policies and I was making a fair a a free trade argument and he really pushed free trade argument and he really pushed free trade argument and he really pushed back on me and I said well that's really back on me and I said well that's really back on me and I said well that's really odd and he was like why you know why why odd and he was like why you know why why odd and he was like why you know why why don't you understand this issue why this don't you understand this issue why this don't you understand this issue why this I said I just have the same views that I said I just have the same views that I said I just have the same views that you taught me you taught me these these you taught me you taught me these these you taught me you taught me these these free trade views. Now, again, I'm okay free trade views. Now, again, I'm okay free trade views. Now, again, I'm okay with people changing their mind. I I with people changing their mind. I I with people changing their mind. I I mentioned just earlier an issue where mentioned just earlier an issue where mentioned just earlier an issue where you were teaching me about about working you were teaching me about about working you were teaching me about about working from home and things like that. That's a from home and things like that. That's a from home and things like that. That's a sign of somebody who's intellectually sign of somebody who's intellectually sign of somebody who's intellectually engaged, engaged, engaged, but I I don't see much of that. I just but I I don't see much of that. I just but I I don't see much of that. I just see, oh, well, this is the new party see, oh, well, this is the new party see, oh, well, this is the new party line. Like, wait a minute. No, I I line. Like, wait a minute. No, I I line. Like, wait a minute. No, I I actually believed those things, David. actually believed those things, David. actually believed those things, David. is actually one of the reasons I got out is actually one of the reasons I got out is actually one of the reasons I got out of politics of politics of politics >> is because I realized I was one of the >> is because I realized I was one of the >> is because I realized I was one of the only people who actually believed the only people who actually believed the only people who actually believed the stuff we were talking about.

stuff we were talking about. stuff we were talking about. >> Well, I think that's what a lot of folks >> Well, I think that's what a lot of folks >> Well, I think that's what a lot of folks have felt a frustration in over the last have felt a frustration in over the last have felt a frustration in over the last few years is it's either people that few years is it's either people that few years is it's either people that have fully changed their view or even have fully changed their view or even have fully changed their view or even where they haven't changed their view, where they haven't changed their view, where they haven't changed their view, they're willing to just sort of stay they're willing to just sort of stay they're willing to just sort of stay silent. Yeah. silent. Yeah. silent. Yeah. >> If it's if they know it's going to be >> If it's if they know it's going to be >> If it's if they know it's going to be inconvenient or or unpopular. inconvenient or or unpopular. inconvenient or or unpopular. And uh the economics is kind of ground And uh the economics is kind of ground And uh the economics is kind of ground zero on a lot of this stuff. zero on a lot of this stuff. zero on a lot of this stuff. >> Um but but I think I think my own view >> Um but but I think I think my own view >> Um but but I think I think my own view is that my life is simpler when I just is that my life is simpler when I just is that my life is simpler when I just remember what I believe and act remember what I believe and act remember what I believe and act accordingly accordingly accordingly >> and and try to do so with a certain >> and and try to do so with a certain >> and and try to do so with a certain amount of grace. Um there you know I'm amount of grace. Um there you know I'm amount of grace. Um there you know I'm I'm aware of how many people have the I'm aware of how many people have the I'm aware of how many people have the views or the position the disposition views or the position the disposition views or the position the disposition they have now out of resistance. In they have now out of resistance. In they have now out of resistance. In other words, a lot of people that other words, a lot of people that other words, a lot of people that sometimes talk very sickopantically sometimes talk very sickopantically sometimes talk very sickopantically about President Trump, I think that about President Trump, I think that about President Trump, I think that their motivator is not political their motivator is not political their motivator is not political idolatry, but a very understandable idolatry, but a very understandable idolatry, but a very understandable frustration with what they had saw in frustration with what they had saw in frustration with what they had saw in the peak moments of wokeism, the peak moments of wokeism, the peak moments of wokeism, progressivism, and and so there's a progressivism, and and so there's a progressivism, and and so there's a reactionary component to it that that I reactionary component to it that that I reactionary component to it that that I understand.

understand. understand. >> And and yet at the same time, I want to >> And and yet at the same time, I want to >> And and yet at the same time, I want to do my best. I I don't think I've been do my best. I I don't think I've been do my best. I I don't think I've been perfect in it, but I want to do my best perfect in it, but I want to do my best perfect in it, but I want to do my best to model um a resolution and a real a to model um a resolution and a real a to model um a resolution and a real a real comfort level with conviction and real comfort level with conviction and real comfort level with conviction and and and being willing to be on an and and being willing to be on an and and being willing to be on an unpopular side of an issue. And and unpopular side of an issue. And and unpopular side of an issue. And and unfortunately, there's just far too many unfortunately, there's just far too many unfortunately, there's just far too many people, social media makes this so much people, social media makes this so much people, social media makes this so much worse, that they almost are are worse, that they almost are are worse, that they almost are are unwilling to speak up until they have unwilling to speak up until they have unwilling to speak up until they have their finger in the wind and kind of get their finger in the wind and kind of get their finger in the wind and kind of get an idea of where their their tribe is an idea of where their their tribe is an idea of where their their tribe is going to to go. and and I it just yeah I going to to go. and and I it just yeah I going to to go. and and I it just yeah I I I don't feel comfortable doing that. I I don't feel comfortable doing that. I I don't feel comfortable doing that. And so but you're I also accept what you And so but you're I also accept what you And so but you're I also accept what you said. I I'm in a uh a financially secure said. I I'm in a uh a financially secure said. I I'm in a uh a financially secure position and I do not make my living position and I do not make my living position and I do not make my living with political punditry. So that gives with political punditry. So that gives with political punditry. So that gives me all the more burden to be a trutht me all the more burden to be a trutht me all the more burden to be a trutht teller. teller. teller. >> Yeah. Well, I I'll I'll tell people >> Yeah. Well, I I'll I'll tell people >> Yeah. Well, I I'll I'll tell people every once in a while that the Gospel every once in a while that the Gospel every once in a while that the Gospel Coalition, our budget is not very big.

Coalition, our budget is not very big. Coalition, our budget is not very big. And I've been grateful for that. I hope And I've been grateful for that. I hope And I've been grateful for that. I hope that changes with time. But I say I'm that changes with time. But I say I'm that changes with time. But I say I'm grateful for that because I'm not sure grateful for that because I'm not sure grateful for that because I'm not sure how we would have made it over the last how we would have made it over the last how we would have made it over the last 10 years. I go back to Carl Henry's 10 years. I go back to Carl Henry's 10 years. I go back to Carl Henry's story. Carl Henry ran a foul of Jay. story. Carl Henry ran a foul of Jay. story. Carl Henry ran a foul of Jay. Howard Pew. Jay. Howard Pew was Howard Pew. Jay. Howard Pew was Howard Pew. Jay. Howard Pew was basically bankrolling that magazine for basically bankrolling that magazine for basically bankrolling that magazine for the first many years of its existence. the first many years of its existence. the first many years of its existence. They were never on the same page They were never on the same page They were never on the same page theologically. They both shared an theologically. They both shared an theologically. They both shared an antipathy for communism, but they did antipathy for communism, but they did antipathy for communism, but they did not share a common theological vision. not share a common theological vision. not share a common theological vision. And eventually that went sideways. So, And eventually that went sideways. So, And eventually that went sideways. So, in my job, it's something I have to in my job, it's something I have to in my job, it's something I have to think about a lot because you run you think about a lot because you run you think about a lot because you run you run foul with the wrong people on run foul with the wrong people on run foul with the wrong people on certain issues. You get in a lot of certain issues. You get in a lot of certain issues. You get in a lot of trouble. But the only way to really be trouble. But the only way to really be trouble. But the only way to really be able to manage it is to stick by your able to manage it is to stick by your able to manage it is to stick by your convictions and trust the Lord in those convictions and trust the Lord in those convictions and trust the Lord in those cases because once you start chasing cases because once you start chasing cases because once you start chasing that wind, maybe we see what that wind, maybe we see what that wind, maybe we see what Ecclesiastes says, you never stop. And Ecclesiastes says, you never stop. And Ecclesiastes says, you never stop. And and the other thing too is to maintain and the other thing too is to maintain and the other thing too is to maintain uh optimism that there are other people uh optimism that there are other people uh optimism that there are other people out there besides you that are pursuing out there besides you that are pursuing out there besides you that are pursuing truth. And and so I think there are truth. And and so I think there are truth. And and so I think there are people that I have I could run a foul of people that I have I could run a foul of people that I have I could run a foul of that it would it will all end okay be that it would it will all end okay be that it would it will all end okay be because they understand that there's a because they understand that there's a because they understand that there's a sort of good faith behind these sort of good faith behind these sort of good faith behind these disagreements that when I'm taking the disagreements that when I'm taking the disagreements that when I'm taking the opposite side of an issue, it's at least opposite side of an issue, it's at least opposite side of an issue, it's at least sincerely held and and driven by a a sincerely held and and driven by a a sincerely held and and driven by a a belief system and and a desired outcome belief system and and a desired outcome belief system and and a desired outcome and not one who sort of cos cosplaying and not one who sort of cos cosplaying and not one who sort of cos cosplaying in the in the current moment.

in the in the current moment. in the in the current moment. >> This is the problem, I think, with >> This is the problem, I think, with >> This is the problem, I think, with post-liberalism and illiberalism and post-liberalism and illiberalism and post-liberalism and illiberalism and certainly populism at large. certainly populism at large. certainly populism at large. >> Um, that it it it distracts from what >> Um, that it it it distracts from what >> Um, that it it it distracts from what we're supposed to be doing in argument we're supposed to be doing in argument we're supposed to be doing in argument and in truth seeeking. Uh, to it it it and in truth seeeking. Uh, to it it it and in truth seeeking. Uh, to it it it it it's sort of like the person who lies it it's sort of like the person who lies it it's sort of like the person who lies so much that they have to spend most of so much that they have to spend most of so much that they have to spend most of the time remembering what they've said the time remembering what they've said the time remembering what they've said before. [laughter] you know, where in if before. [laughter] you know, where in if before. [laughter] you know, where in if we're supposed to come now together, let we're supposed to come now together, let we're supposed to come now together, let us let's reason together, you and I. us let's reason together, you and I. us let's reason together, you and I. We're in this constant pursuit of truth We're in this constant pursuit of truth We're in this constant pursuit of truth as believers. as believers. as believers. It's difficult to do that if you have to It's difficult to do that if you have to It's difficult to do that if you have to constantly be trying to remember constantly be trying to remember constantly be trying to remember what it is you're even doing, who you're what it is you're even doing, who you're what it is you're even doing, who you're supposed to be pleasing at any given supposed to be pleasing at any given supposed to be pleasing at any given time. And so, the simplification of it time. And so, the simplification of it time. And so, the simplification of it all is to just call balls and strikes. all is to just call balls and strikes. all is to just call balls and strikes. And and you know what's interesting for And and you know what's interesting for And and you know what's interesting for myself as a a center-right Reaganite myself as a a center-right Reaganite myself as a a center-right Reaganite political conservative who who's a big political conservative who who's a big political conservative who who's a big uh defender of free enterprise and a uh defender of free enterprise and a uh defender of free enterprise and a market economy, but also deeply rooted market economy, but also deeply rooted market economy, but also deeply rooted to uh Calvinistic heritage to uh Calvinistic heritage to uh Calvinistic heritage theologically, theologically, theologically, I'm going to end up being against the I'm going to end up being against the I'm going to end up being against the political left more than I am the political left more than I am the political left more than I am the political right. And yet, political right. And yet, political right. And yet, um, whenever I have a occasion to have um, whenever I have a occasion to have um, whenever I have a occasion to have to express a view that rubs one wrong to express a view that rubs one wrong to express a view that rubs one wrong the one the wrong way or the other the the one the wrong way or the other the the one the wrong way or the other the wrong way, um, I don't have to try to wrong way, um, I don't have to try to wrong way, um, I don't have to try to remember what it is I'm supposed to be remember what it is I'm supposed to be remember what it is I'm supposed to be saying. I can just appeal to the same

saying. I can just appeal to the same saying. I can just appeal to the same principles that I've always had. And I principles that I've always had. And I principles that I've always had. And I find that to be a really refreshing way find that to be a really refreshing way find that to be a really refreshing way to live one's life. to live one's life. to live one's life. >> Well, let let's let's end there. My last >> Well, let let's let's end there. My last >> Well, let let's let's end there. My last question was going to be how do we break question was going to be how do we break question was going to be how do we break the spell of constant resentment in our the spell of constant resentment in our the spell of constant resentment in our culture? Another thing that you talk culture? Another thing that you talk culture? Another thing that you talk about, but it sounds like your answer about, but it sounds like your answer about, but it sounds like your answer would be tell the truth. would be tell the truth. would be tell the truth. >> To tell the truth. And I but I would add >> To tell the truth. And I but I would add >> To tell the truth. And I but I would add on this one because it's funny. We've on this one because it's funny. We've on this one because it's funny. We've spent all of our time today talking spent all of our time today talking spent all of our time today talking about my last book, the full time, but about my last book, the full time, but about my last book, the full time, but my very first book was called Crisis of my very first book was called Crisis of my very first book was called Crisis of Responsibility Responsibility Responsibility and the resentment and the resentment and the resentment um approach to life, holding on to um approach to life, holding on to um approach to life, holding on to grievances. grievances. grievances. it does, in my opinion, lead to really it does, in my opinion, lead to really it does, in my opinion, lead to really bad ideological outcomes. Um, whether it bad ideological outcomes. Um, whether it bad ideological outcomes. Um, whether it be wokeism or critical theory or or be wokeism or critical theory or or be wokeism or critical theory or or various right-wing populism that gets various right-wing populism that gets various right-wing populism that gets run a muck, but it's far more damaging run a muck, but it's far more damaging run a muck, but it's far more damaging personally than it is ideologically. personally than it is ideologically. personally than it is ideologically. That grievance uh mentality That grievance uh mentality That grievance uh mentality really suffocates us from a life of joy.

really suffocates us from a life of joy. really suffocates us from a life of joy. And a lot of us have reasons to be And a lot of us have reasons to be And a lot of us have reasons to be frustrated with things. Many of us have frustrated with things. Many of us have frustrated with things. Many of us have had difficult things happen in our life. had difficult things happen in our life. had difficult things happen in our life. But my number one argument for But my number one argument for But my number one argument for overcoming a resentment approach to life overcoming a resentment approach to life overcoming a resentment approach to life is not political or even cultural. It's is not political or even cultural. It's is not political or even cultural. It's personal. That our own spiritual personal. That our own spiritual personal. That our own spiritual well-being and and um exposure to well-being and and um exposure to well-being and and um exposure to contentment and human flourishing contentment and human flourishing contentment and human flourishing expands when we overcome a life of expands when we overcome a life of expands when we overcome a life of grievance. grievance. grievance. >> I love that. David Bons is one of my >> I love that. David Bons is one of my >> I love that. David Bons is one of my guest on Gospel Bound. We've been guest on Gospel Bound. We've been guest on Gospel Bound. We've been talking about full-time [music] work of talking about full-time [music] work of talking about full-time [music] work of the meaning of life as well as his the meaning of life as well as his the meaning of life as well as his vocation, his other his other writings. vocation, his other his other writings. vocation, his other his other writings. David, [music] thanks for taking the David, [music] thanks for taking the David, [music] thanks for taking the time. Thanks so much, Colin. Appreciate time. Thanks so much, Colin. Appreciate time. Thanks so much, Colin. Appreciate it. >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and Gospelbound. For more interviews and Gospelbound. For more interviews and [music] to sign up for my newsletter, [music] to sign up for my newsletter, [music] to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.