The Time When Christian Principles Matter Most - Justin Giboney

You said, "We apparently believe that You said, "We apparently believe that the situation is so dire that we must be the situation is so dire that we must be the situation is so dire that we must be mean and dishonest to survive." mean and dishonest to survive." mean and dishonest to survive." Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the Justin, I'd say that this is maybe the most painful lesson that I've learned in most painful lesson that I've learned in most painful lesson that I've learned in ministry. I was doing chapel at a ministry. I was doing chapel at a ministry. I was doing chapel at a college a number of years ago, and I college a number of years ago, and I college a number of years ago, and I implored these students, do not believe implored these students, do not believe implored these students, do not believe that you can lie in the service of the that you can lie in the service of the that you can lie in the service of the Lord. And I'm sure this went over most Lord. And I'm sure this went over most Lord. And I'm sure this went over most of these young people's heads. Why is of these young people's heads. Why is of these young people's heads. Why is this why is this old guy talking to us this why is this old guy talking to us this why is this old guy talking to us about this? But it is so normal I find about this? But it is so normal I find about this? But it is so normal I find in ministry to people to offer what they in ministry to people to offer what they in ministry to people to offer what they believe to be I mean I think I'm believe to be I mean I think I'm believe to be I mean I think I'm assuming the best when I say that assuming the best when I say that assuming the best when I say that they're righteous lies or people who are they're righteous lies or people who are they're righteous lies or people who are just pure charlatans just pure charlatans just pure charlatans um are all over the place in ministry. um are all over the place in ministry. um are all over the place in ministry. But the question is not about them. It's But the question is not about them. It's But the question is not about them. It's about us. How do we avoid succumbing to about us. How do we avoid succumbing to about us. How do we avoid succumbing to this same temptation ourselves when we this same temptation ourselves when we this same temptation ourselves when we get frustrated that we're not making get frustrated that we're not making get frustrated that we're not making more progress? more progress? more progress? >> Again, history helps us with that. Now, >> Again, history helps us with that. Now, >> Again, history helps us with that. Now, obviously, the scripture helps helps us obviously, the scripture helps helps us obviously, the scripture helps helps us with that. This moment is not the with that. This moment is not the with that. This moment is not the exception to Christian principles. And I exception to Christian principles. And I exception to Christian principles. And I hear so many people saying Trump is so hear so many people saying Trump is so hear so many people saying Trump is so bad or progressives are so bad that we, bad or progressives are so bad that we, bad or progressives are so bad that we, you know, this is just a different you know, this is just a different you know, this is just a different moment. No, it's not. Uh, and that's moment. No, it's not. Uh, and that's moment. No, it's not. Uh, and that's another reason why this book is another reason why this book is another reason why this book is important. I'm not just talking in important. I'm not just talking in important. I'm not just talking in theory that doing things the right way, theory that doing things the right way, theory that doing things the right way, doing things in a Christ-like way is doing things in a Christ-like way is doing things in a Christ-like way is actually better and often more actually better and often more actually better and often more productive, right? More, you know, more productive, right? More, you know, more productive, right? More, you know, more effective. The civil rights movement is

effective. The civil rights movement is effective. The civil rights movement is proof of concept. This we have to get proof of concept. This we have to get proof of concept. This we have to get this through our heads. This is not the this through our heads. This is not the this through our heads. This is not the worst moment ever. This is not this is worst moment ever. This is not this is worst moment ever. This is not this is when Christian principles matter the when Christian principles matter the when Christian principles matter the most. Because because if we don't most. Because because if we don't most. Because because if we don't believe in unity in the church now, if believe in unity in the church now, if believe in unity in the church now, if we don't believe that loving your we don't believe that loving your we don't believe that loving your neighbor is the right thing to do now, neighbor is the right thing to do now, neighbor is the right thing to do now, we never believed it. And people are we never believed it. And people are we never believed it. And people are watching us from outside the church watching us from outside the church watching us from outside the church looking how we react. And anytime we looking how we react. And anytime we looking how we react. And anytime we don't get the person in office that we don't get the person in office that we don't get the person in office that we like. Sure, we we may think the person's like. Sure, we we may think the person's like. Sure, we we may think the person's doing, you know, doing terrible things. doing, you know, doing terrible things. doing, you know, doing terrible things. That may all be true. you cannot react That may all be true. you cannot react That may all be true. you cannot react outside of Christian character because outside of Christian character because outside of Christian character because it's because it shows that you never it's because it shows that you never it's because it shows that you never believed the the standards that you were believed the the standards that you were believed the the standards that you were trying to hold other people to in the trying to hold other people to in the trying to hold other people to in the first place. It's wrong. And I see even first place. It's wrong. And I see even first place. It's wrong. And I see even people from pull pits, you know, even people from pull pits, you know, even people from pull pits, you know, even when we look at, you know, the Charlie when we look at, you know, the Charlie when we look at, you know, the Charlie Kirk assassination and all this going Kirk assassination and all this going Kirk assassination and all this going completely outside of the sermon on the completely outside of the sermon on the completely outside of the sermon on the mount, going completely outside of the mount, going completely outside of the mount, going completely outside of the primary things that Christians should be primary things that Christians should be primary things that Christians should be focused on in these moments when it focused on in these moments when it focused on in these moments when it matters the most to say, "No, this is matters the most to say, "No, this is matters the most to say, "No, this is why Christianity is different." Because why Christianity is different." Because why Christianity is different." Because we don't just react to the moments that we don't just react to the moments that we don't just react to the moments that you can shrug off differently. We react you can shrug off differently. We react you can shrug off differently. We react to the major moments and the moments to the major moments and the moments to the major moments and the moments that shake us up differently. And I just that shake us up differently. And I just that shake us up differently. And I just see a lot of even Christian leaders see a lot of even Christian leaders see a lot of even Christian leaders refusing to do this. This that to do refusing to do this. This that to do refusing to do this. This that to do that. This is not the exception to that. This is not the exception to that. This is not the exception to Christian principles at all. And Christian principles at all. And Christian principles at all. And relatedly in the book, you talk about relatedly in the book, you talk about relatedly in the book, you talk about the tyrant impulse which you describe as the tyrant impulse which you describe as the tyrant impulse which you describe as quote the urge not to win the debate but quote the urge not to win the debate but quote the urge not to win the debate but to summarily end the debate through to summarily end the debate through to summarily end the debate through intimidation or force. You mentioned the

intimidation or force. You mentioned the intimidation or force. You mentioned the Kirk assassination. Are you worried Kirk assassination. Are you worried Kirk assassination. Are you worried about an increase or resumption of about an increase or resumption of about an increase or resumption of politically motivated violence as we've politically motivated violence as we've politically motivated violence as we've seen in the past? I mean, it can go as seen in the past? I mean, it can go as seen in the past? I mean, it can go as bad as the 1860s or the 1960s. Do you bad as the 1860s or the 1960s. Do you bad as the 1860s or the 1960s. Do you worry about that at all? worry about that at all? worry about that at all? >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about >> Oh, yeah. I I I definitely worry about that because people have come to such a that because people have come to such a that because people have come to such a point of desperation. And even within, point of desperation. And even within, point of desperation. And even within, let's just talk about church people. let's just talk about church people. let's just talk about church people. People have come to such a point of People have come to such a point of People have come to such a point of desperation. People lack that moral desperation. People lack that moral desperation. People lack that moral imagination that we've been talking imagination that we've been talking imagination that we've been talking about. But when you lack that violence, about. But when you lack that violence, about. But when you lack that violence, I mean, when people talk about, okay, I mean, when people talk about, okay, I mean, when people talk about, okay, civility is not, you know, not going to civility is not, you know, not going to civility is not, you know, not going to get it done. I'm tired of hearing this get it done. I'm tired of hearing this get it done. I'm tired of hearing this talk about civility. What do you think talk about civility. What do you think talk about civility. What do you think the alternative is? The alternative to the alternative is? The alternative to the alternative is? The alternative to civility is violence. civility is violence. civility is violence. And most of the people who sit around And most of the people who sit around And most of the people who sit around and say that and preach it to others and say that and preach it to others and say that and preach it to others aren't ready for that type of uh aren't ready for that type of uh aren't ready for that type of uh outcome. outcome. outcome. So, you got to be very careful what So, you got to be very careful what So, you got to be very careful what you're telling people. This is not a you're telling people. This is not a you're telling people. This is not a game. You know, we can talk about just game. You know, we can talk about just game. You know, we can talk about just war theory and all that, but war war is war theory and all that, but war war is war theory and all that, but war war is not what you you don't want people not what you you don't want people not what you you don't want people ending debates with violence. I don't ending debates with violence. I don't ending debates with violence. I don't care if you agree with somebody with care if you agree with somebody with care if you agree with somebody with with what somebody had to say or not.

with what somebody had to say or not. with what somebody had to say or not. That's not the way to end the debate That's not the way to end the debate That's not the way to end the debate debate. If the merits of the case are on debate. If the merits of the case are on debate. If the merits of the case are on your side, sit down, make the case, and your side, sit down, make the case, and your side, sit down, make the case, and win the debate. But when we're told that win the debate. But when we're told that win the debate. But when we're told that there's no honest brokers out there, there's no honest brokers out there, there's no honest brokers out there, nobody can be persuaded. You just don't nobody can be persuaded. You just don't nobody can be persuaded. You just don't think it's worth making. It's always think it's worth making. It's always think it's worth making. It's always worth making. And that's the difference worth making. And that's the difference worth making. And that's the difference between a king who was willing to do the between a king who was willing to do the between a king who was willing to do the hard work of being artful hard work of being artful hard work of being artful while telling harsh truths and telling while telling harsh truths and telling while telling harsh truths and telling and being honest about what people are and being honest about what people are and being honest about what people are doing and what they should be doing. And doing and what they should be doing. And doing and what they should be doing. And then the person that just runs out there then the person that just runs out there then the person that just runs out there and gets pats on the back for throwing a and gets pats on the back for throwing a and gets pats on the back for throwing a public temper tantrum. That public public temper tantrum. That public public temper tantrum. That public temper tantrum, which seems authentic temper tantrum, which seems authentic temper tantrum, which seems authentic today or passionate today, does nothing today or passionate today, does nothing today or passionate today, does nothing to help anybody. It's much easier than to help anybody. It's much easier than to help anybody. It's much easier than being to do that than to be artful and being to do that than to be artful and being to do that than to be artful and actually persuade someone who disagrees actually persuade someone who disagrees actually persuade someone who disagrees with you. as performative. It's not with you. as performative. It's not with you. as performative. It's not productive. productive. productive. >> It's performative. Exactly. >> It's performative. Exactly. >> It's performative. Exactly. >> There are young people who are looking >> There are young people who are looking >> There are young people who are looking for a path forward. They're being drawn for a path forward. They're being drawn for a path forward. They're being drawn towards some really bad alternatives towards some really bad alternatives towards some really bad alternatives that we're that we're mentioning here, that we're that we're mentioning here, that we're that we're mentioning here, but somebody looking up to you in but somebody looking up to you in but somebody looking up to you in ministry and activism.

ministry and activism. ministry and activism. What is it that you would most want them What is it that you would most want them What is it that you would most want them to know? It might be something you've to know? It might be something you've to know? It might be something you've already said here, but they're saying, already said here, but they're saying, already said here, but they're saying, "Justin, I need I want to be involved in "Justin, I need I want to be involved in "Justin, I need I want to be involved in this kind of activism. I want to change this kind of activism. I want to change this kind of activism. I want to change the world. I'm hopeful about this. I'm the world. I'm hopeful about this. I'm the world. I'm hopeful about this. I'm optimistic about this. I'm I'm pursuing optimistic about this. I'm I'm pursuing optimistic about this. I'm I'm pursuing Christ in this. What's that what's that Christ in this. What's that what's that Christ in this. What's that what's that bit of advice you'd give them? bit of advice you'd give them? bit of advice you'd give them? >> My advice would be that whatever cause >> My advice would be that whatever cause >> My advice would be that whatever cause you take, whatever, you know, group you you take, whatever, you know, group you you take, whatever, you know, group you join or move movement you start to join or move movement you start to join or move movement you start to pursue that, be willing to critique it. pursue that, be willing to critique it. pursue that, be willing to critique it. Be willing to critique yourself. Uh you Be willing to critique yourself. Uh you Be willing to critique yourself. Uh you will not be able to persuade others or will not be able to persuade others or will not be able to persuade others or to get things done if you're not willing to get things done if you're not willing to get things done if you're not willing to be honest about what you get wrong. to be honest about what you get wrong. to be honest about what you get wrong. Uh and what do we talk about? That's a Uh and what do we talk about? That's a Uh and what do we talk about? That's a hard thing to do because no tribe, no hard thing to do because no tribe, no hard thing to do because no tribe, no party, no ideology is going to easily party, no ideology is going to easily party, no ideology is going to easily allow you to critique it. It just allow you to critique it. It just allow you to critique it. It just doesn't happen. I mean, that and that's doesn't happen. I mean, that and that's doesn't happen. I mean, that and that's why, you know, all this stuff about we why, you know, all this stuff about we why, you know, all this stuff about we recently heard, you know, there's people recently heard, you know, there's people recently heard, you know, there's people talking about there's nobody we we're talking about there's nobody we we're talking about there's nobody we we're not going to go against anybody on our not going to go against anybody on our not going to go against anybody on our side. Well, that's easy to do. That's side. Well, that's easy to do. That's side. Well, that's easy to do. That's what gangs do. That's what cults do, what gangs do. That's what cults do, what gangs do. That's what cults do, right?

right? right? um you know they say the other side gets um you know they say the other side gets um you know they say the other side gets every single thing wrong and they're all every single thing wrong and they're all every single thing wrong and they're all if you believe that you're you're in if you believe that you're you're in if you believe that you're you're in danger of being in a very bad situation danger of being in a very bad situation danger of being in a very bad situation because you are you are not a critical because you are you are not a critical because you are you are not a critical thinker and a Christian always has to be thinker and a Christian always has to be thinker and a Christian always has to be willing to think critically. We cannot willing to think critically. We cannot willing to think critically. We cannot be indoctrinated. So, what I want people be indoctrinated. So, what I want people be indoctrinated. So, what I want people to know is anybody that says the other to know is anybody that says the other to know is anybody that says the other side gets every single thing wrong and side gets every single thing wrong and side gets every single thing wrong and historically has done so wants to historically has done so wants to historically has done so wants to indoctrinate you and wants you not to indoctrinate you and wants you not to indoctrinate you and wants you not to think. Because once they get you to think. Because once they get you to think. Because once they get you to agree with that, then you're just going agree with that, then you're just going agree with that, then you're just going to rubber stamp everything they say and to rubber stamp everything they say and to rubber stamp everything they say and they know that. So, don't ever believe they know that. So, don't ever believe they know that. So, don't ever believe that. You should want to follow leaders that. You should want to follow leaders that. You should want to follow leaders that say that want you to think for that say that want you to think for that say that want you to think for yourself that are open to being yourself that are open to being yourself that are open to being critiqued and and seeing what's right critiqued and and seeing what's right critiqued and and seeing what's right and wrong and how we can improve. And and wrong and how we can improve. And and wrong and how we can improve. And one great example of that historically one great example of that historically one great example of that historically that I have to always bring up is people that I have to always bring up is people that I have to always bring up is people miss the fact that miss the fact that miss the fact that um Frederick Douglas actually actually um Frederick Douglas actually actually um Frederick Douglas actually actually critiqued the abolitionist movement. critiqued the abolitionist movement. critiqued the abolitionist movement. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> This was someone who was once a slave. >> This was someone who was once a slave. >> This was someone who was once a slave. He goes and looks and says no what He goes and looks and says no what He goes and looks and says no what you're doing wrong. And I'm not just you're doing wrong. And I'm not just you're doing wrong. And I'm not just going to say that privately. I'm going going to say that privately. I'm going going to say that privately. I'm going to say publicly that this way of going to say publicly that this way of going to say publicly that this way of going about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas about it is wrong. If Frederick Douglas Douglas can do that, don't you let Douglas can do that, don't you let Douglas can do that, don't you let anybody ever tell you that in this anybody ever tell you that in this anybody ever tell you that in this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment, this moment's too crazy or this moment's too critical for you to think moment's too critical for you to think moment's too critical for you to think through things and critique uh those through things and critique uh those through things and critique uh those around you.

around you. around you. >> Became a big point of contention between >> Became a big point of contention between >> Became a big point of contention between him him and William Lloyd Garrison, him him and William Lloyd Garrison, him him and William Lloyd Garrison, didn't it? didn't it? didn't it? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> I mean, >> I mean, >> I mean, >> he didn't want to get rid of the the >> he didn't want to get rid of the the >> he didn't want to get rid of the the Constitution. He thought that was the Constitution. He thought that was the Constitution. He thought that was the mechanism to get it done. So, he thought mechanism to get it done. So, he thought mechanism to get it done. So, he thought that morally and strategically that was that morally and strategically that was that morally and strategically that was a bad way of going about it. and he a bad way of going about it. and he a bad way of going about it. and he said, "So, can you imagine that? We have said, "So, can you imagine that? We have said, "So, can you imagine that? We have this grand objective that we agree on this grand objective that we agree on this grand objective that we agree on and you're willing to say, "No, that's and you're willing to say, "No, that's and you're willing to say, "No, that's not the way to go about it. We're not not the way to go about it. We're not not the way to go about it. We're not together on that publicly." This wasn't together on that publicly." This wasn't together on that publicly." This wasn't just a private conversation. He said it just a private conversation. He said it just a private conversation. He said it publicly. So, that's why when people, publicly. So, that's why when people, publicly. So, that's why when people, you know, come to me and say, "Well, how you know, come to me and say, "Well, how you know, come to me and say, "Well, how could you talk about progressives when could you talk about progressives when could you talk about progressives when Trump is so bad or how can you talk how Trump is so bad or how can you talk how Trump is so bad or how can you talk how can you critique, you know, uh, this can you critique, you know, uh, this can you critique, you know, uh, this side or that side when when, you know, side or that side when when, you know, side or that side when when, you know, someone the other side is so bad?" someone the other side is so bad?" someone the other side is so bad?" That's not the way things work. Jesus, That's not the way things work. Jesus, That's not the way things work. Jesus, if we if we want to remember, his people if we if we want to remember, his people if we if we want to remember, his people were under an occupation and he still were under an occupation and he still were under an occupation and he still critiqued his own people and you know critiqued his own people and you know critiqued his own people and you know the religious establishment and all the religious establishment and all the religious establishment and all that. These are this is what you have to that. These are this is what you have to that. These are this is what you have to do if you love the truth and if you do if you love the truth and if you do if you love the truth and if you don't if you love your narrative more don't if you love your narrative more don't if you love your narrative more than that then you don't do it. Those than that then you don't do it. Those than that then you don't do it. Those are the those are the options. Is this are the those are the options. Is this are the those are the options. Is this what can save a political party from what can save a political party from what can save a political party from flipping over into that territory of flipping over into that territory of flipping over into that territory of well you have a couple different options well you have a couple different options well you have a couple different options and some get some right and some get and some get some right and some get and some get some right and some get wrong to flipping over into straight up wrong to flipping over into straight up wrong to flipping over into straight up oh no no no no no this is this is oh no no no no no this is this is oh no no no no no this is this is unacceptable I'm thinking here whether unacceptable I'm thinking here whether unacceptable I'm thinking here whether it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the it's the Nazis 1930s40s communists the democrats in 1860 you know as basically democrats in 1860 you know as basically democrats in 1860 you know as basically nothing but a prosl I mean there was nothing but a prosl I mean there was nothing but a prosl I mean there was there were divisions I should say but there were divisions I should say but there were divisions I should say but the southern democratic party very much the southern democratic party very much the southern democratic party very much just I mean slavery was was the end all

just I mean slavery was was the end all just I mean slavery was was the end all beall to everything in there. Is this beall to everything in there. Is this beall to everything in there. Is this what prevents that from happening when what prevents that from happening when what prevents that from happening when there has to be that clean break or how there has to be that clean break or how there has to be that clean break or how do you prevent that from happening? do you prevent that from happening? do you prevent that from happening? Because it's it's not like it's rare in Because it's it's not like it's rare in Because it's it's not like it's rare in history where entire political party history where entire political party history where entire political party entire governing party can slip into entire governing party can slip into entire governing party can slip into just something absolutely horrible. just something absolutely horrible. just something absolutely horrible. >> Yeah. That self-examination and >> Yeah. That self-examination and >> Yeah. That self-examination and accountability for any movement is a accountability for any movement is a accountability for any movement is a must. I mean, we can talk about all the must. I mean, we can talk about all the must. I mean, we can talk about all the movements that have broken our hearts movements that have broken our hearts movements that have broken our hearts and we've seen them fall and leaders and we've seen them fall and leaders and we've seen them fall and leaders that all these cover that's where that all these cover that's where that all these cover that's where cover-ups come from because we think cover-ups come from because we think cover-ups come from because we think what we're doing at the end of the day what we're doing at the end of the day what we're doing at the end of the day is so good that we can just we don't is so good that we can just we don't is so good that we can just we don't need to really get into that up. No, we need to really get into that up. No, we need to really get into that up. No, we do. Because when we don't examine do. Because when we don't examine do. Because when we don't examine ourselves and hold ourselves ourselves and hold ourselves ourselves and hold ourselves accountable, we end up we're not good accountable, we end up we're not good accountable, we end up we're not good enough as people to have a pure movement enough as people to have a pure movement enough as people to have a pure movement or pure organization without that or pure organization without that or pure organization without that examination uh and without that that examination uh and without that that examination uh and without that that honesty. It doesn't mean that you need honesty. It doesn't mean that you need honesty. It doesn't mean that you need to every time somebody makes a mistakes to every time somebody makes a mistakes to every time somebody makes a mistakes you got to tear them down as much as you you got to tear them down as much as you you got to tear them down as much as you can. But it means we have to be honest can. But it means we have to be honest can. But it means we have to be honest about where we can go wrong. No movement about where we can go wrong. No movement about where we can go wrong. No movement is good enough not to do that.