Sing with Getty and Other Greats in This New Hymnal

There is a terrible theology of what There is a terrible theology of what worship and singing now is in the church worship and singing now is in the church worship and singing now is in the church that is far closer linked to to to sales that is far closer linked to to to sales that is far closer linked to to to sales and marketing and to and and to therapy and marketing and to and and to therapy and marketing and to and and to therapy than it is to to holy worship. And so we than it is to to holy worship. And so we than it is to to holy worship. And so we need to get a clear theology of what need to get a clear theology of what need to get a clear theology of what we're doing. we're doing. we're doing. [Music] Music and family have always been Music and family have always been connected for me. My grandfather taught connected for me. My grandfather taught connected for me. My grandfather taught me the Christian faith largely through me the Christian faith largely through me the Christian faith largely through our Welsh heritage of singing. And our Welsh heritage of singing. And our Welsh heritage of singing. And shortly before he died, our family shortly before he died, our family shortly before he died, our family gathered around the piano as my mother gathered around the piano as my mother gathered around the piano as my mother played and we sang many of his favorites played and we sang many of his favorites played and we sang many of his favorites from the Methodist himnil. And every from the Methodist himnil. And every from the Methodist himnil. And every night now with my own family, we open up night now with my own family, we open up night now with my own family, we open up the himynil and sing some of these the himynil and sing some of these the himynil and sing some of these famous Welsh hymns, including Guide Me, famous Welsh hymns, including Guide Me, famous Welsh hymns, including Guide Me, oh thou great Jehovah. His great oh thou great Jehovah. His great oh thou great Jehovah. His great Methodist him the great meth exactly the Methodist him the great meth exactly the Methodist him the great meth exactly the great Methodist himym writer Charles great Methodist himym writer Charles great Methodist himym writer Charles Wesley wrote uh Jesus lover of my soul Wesley wrote uh Jesus lover of my soul Wesley wrote uh Jesus lover of my soul commonly set to a Welsh tune Aberistwith commonly set to a Welsh tune Aberistwith commonly set to a Welsh tune Aberistwith and now if you're a fan of the TV show and now if you're a fan of the TV show and now if you're a fan of the TV show the crown you'll actually recognize that the crown you'll actually recognize that the crown you'll actually recognize that song from the really moving episode song from the really moving episode song from the really moving episode Abberfan. So you can see that I'm really Abberfan. So you can see that I'm really Abberfan. So you can see that I'm really partial to the old hymns, but partial to the old hymns, but partial to the old hymns, but unfortunately we've pretty much worn out unfortunately we've pretty much worn out unfortunately we've pretty much worn out the binding on my old Methodist himnil.

the binding on my old Methodist himnil. the binding on my old Methodist himnil. And when I'm singing with my family, we And when I'm singing with my family, we And when I'm singing with my family, we also want to include some newer songs also want to include some newer songs also want to include some newer songs that that we all sing together in that that we all sing together in that that we all sing together in church. Songs that have played such a church. Songs that have played such a church. Songs that have played such a big role in my own generation's faith. big role in my own generation's faith. big role in my own generation's faith. Songs like in Christ Alone, Speak, O Songs like in Christ Alone, Speak, O Songs like in Christ Alone, Speak, O Lord, and the Lord is my salvation. All Lord, and the Lord is my salvation. All Lord, and the Lord is my salvation. All written by Keith Getty. In their written by Keith Getty. In their written by Keith Getty. In their introduction, Keith and his wife Kristen introduction, Keith and his wife Kristen introduction, Keith and his wife Kristen write, "Hymns are the heart language of write, "Hymns are the heart language of write, "Hymns are the heart language of the church. Used to sing truth to the the church. Used to sing truth to the the church. Used to sing truth to the Lord and to one another in every season Lord and to one another in every season Lord and to one another in every season of the soul. This has always been the of the soul. This has always been the of the soul. This has always been the way our hymns hold us, inspire us, way our hymns hold us, inspire us, way our hymns hold us, inspire us, comfort us, and form us." Now, you know comfort us, and form us." Now, you know comfort us, and form us." Now, you know Keith Getty, a songwriter of some of Keith Getty, a songwriter of some of Keith Getty, a songwriter of some of your most beloved songs, a choir your most beloved songs, a choir your most beloved songs, a choir director, a musician, a movement leader. director, a musician, a movement leader. director, a musician, a movement leader. Hopefully, you've sung with Keith and Hopefully, you've sung with Keith and Hopefully, you've sung with Keith and Kristen at one of several TGC national Kristen at one of several TGC national Kristen at one of several TGC national conferences. and he joins me on Gospel conferences. and he joins me on Gospel conferences. and he joins me on Gospel Bound now to discuss changes in church Bound now to discuss changes in church Bound now to discuss changes in church music, liturgy, and the legacy of the music, liturgy, and the legacy of the music, liturgy, and the legacy of the himnil. Keith, welcome to Gospel Bound. himnil. Keith, welcome to Gospel Bound. himnil. Keith, welcome to Gospel Bound. >> Colin, it's an honor to be here and it's >> Colin, it's an honor to be here and it's >> Colin, it's an honor to be here and it's great to see you again. And talking great to see you again. And talking great to see you again. And talking about your Welsh hymn heritage is quite about your Welsh hymn heritage is quite about your Welsh hymn heritage is quite quite moving as well. It's good to hear.

quite moving as well. It's good to hear. quite moving as well. It's good to hear. Good. I'm glad to hear that. Um, Good. I'm glad to hear that. Um, Good. I'm glad to hear that. Um, >> we'll press into that a little bit more >> we'll press into that a little bit more >> we'll press into that a little bit more here. here. here. >> Yeah, they sing that guard Jehovah will >> Yeah, they sing that guard Jehovah will >> Yeah, they sing that guard Jehovah will never always have mixed emotions for me never always have mixed emotions for me never always have mixed emotions for me because the the Welch sing it to Kum because the the Welch sing it to Kum because the the Welch sing it to Kum their tune. They sing that at the rugby their tune. They sing that at the rugby their tune. They sing that at the rugby matches when they're beating when matches when they're beating when matches when they're beating when they're winning beating Ireland. And uh they're winning beating Ireland. And uh they're winning beating Ireland. And uh as we as we've beaten him in seven of as we as we've beaten him in seven of as we as we've beaten him in seven of the last eight years, you know, I I the last eight years, you know, I I the last eight years, you know, I I haven't had to listen to it too much. haven't had to listen to it too much. haven't had to listen to it too much. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. >> You got to rub it in. But it does have >> You got to rub it in. But it does have >> You got to rub it in. But it does have but it does have it does have very mixed but it does have it does have very mixed but it does have it does have very mixed emotions if you're a hot blooded Irish emotions if you're a hot blooded Irish emotions if you're a hot blooded Irish Irish Irish rugby and and him lover. Irish Irish rugby and and him lover. Irish Irish rugby and and him lover. Well, that that's part of my point is Well, that that's part of my point is Well, that that's part of my point is that as I didn't realize this until I that as I didn't realize this until I that as I didn't realize this until I was growing up of how ingrained that was growing up of how ingrained that was growing up of how ingrained that that tradition of him singing and that tradition of him singing and that tradition of him singing and singing in general is within that singing in general is within that singing in general is within that culture in particular to the point of it culture in particular to the point of it culture in particular to the point of it being a kind of national call um in what being a kind of national call um in what being a kind of national call um in what they're doing today. the Welsh the Welsh they're doing today. the Welsh the Welsh they're doing today. the Welsh the Welsh probably the most of the four home probably the most of the four home probably the most of the four home nations but I mean it's an interesting nations but I mean it's an interesting nations but I mean it's an interesting stat for example that I think American stat for example that I think American stat for example that I think American churches for the most part sing about churches for the most part sing about churches for the most part sing about one in every six songs they sing in one in every six songs they sing in one in every six songs they sing in church are now hs whereas in Britain on church are now hs whereas in Britain on church are now hs whereas in Britain on a Sunday we've got BBC television have a Sunday we've got BBC television have a Sunday we've got BBC television have the show songs of praise which has been the show songs of praise which has been the show songs of praise which has been going since just the end of the second going since just the end of the second going since just the end of the second world war and that song has more view world war and that song has more view world war and that song has more view has three times as many viewers in has three times as many viewers in has three times as many viewers in Sunday than people go go to church so so Sunday than people go go to church so so Sunday than people go go to church so so hymns hymns has three times the hymns hymns has three times the hymns hymns has three times the attraction that church has in a Sunday attraction that church has in a Sunday attraction that church has in a Sunday in Britain church has six times the in Britain church has six times the in Britain church has six times the attraction that hymns have in America.

attraction that hymns have in America. attraction that hymns have in America. So there is definitely a there is So there is definitely a there is So there is definitely a there is definitely a unique interesting you know definitely a unique interesting you know definitely a unique interesting you know cultural difference cultural difference cultural difference >> but often better theology in the hymns. >> but often better theology in the hymns. >> but often better theology in the hymns. Not always. It's one of the problems why Not always. It's one of the problems why Not always. It's one of the problems why why I use the older Methodist himnel why I use the older Methodist himnel why I use the older Methodist himnel than the new Methodist himnel. than the new Methodist himnel. than the new Methodist himnel. >> And that's right but there's a serious >> And that's right but there's a serious >> And that's right but there's a serious point with that because you know the point with that because you know the point with that because you know the very first you go back to Deuteronomy very first you go back to Deuteronomy very first you go back to Deuteronomy where the first hymns in scripture come where the first hymns in scripture come where the first hymns in scripture come and it you know it says teach this to and it you know it says teach this to and it you know it says teach this to the children that it's a witness against the children that it's a witness against the children that it's a witness against them lest they turn away. In other them lest they turn away. In other them lest they turn away. In other words, from the very beginning of words, from the very beginning of words, from the very beginning of scriptures, hymns are never less than scriptures, hymns are never less than scriptures, hymns are never less than instructional. So what you have your instructional. So what you have your instructional. So what you have your children singing, listening to on their children singing, listening to on their children singing, listening to on their on their phones, or what you choose to on their phones, or what you choose to on their phones, or what you choose to sing in Sunday school or in church or in sing in Sunday school or in church or in sing in Sunday school or in church or in youth group or in home group can never youth group or in home group can never youth group or in home group can never be less than instructional. So it really be less than instructional. So it really be less than instructional. So it really is it really is a pastoral it really is is it really is a pastoral it really is is it really is a pastoral it really is a huge pastoral responsibility for any a huge pastoral responsibility for any a huge pastoral responsibility for any pastor or for any parent. pastor or for any parent. pastor or for any parent. >> Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things >> Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things >> Yeah. Well, and that's one of the things I often say about family devotions and I often say about family devotions and I often say about family devotions and why I use a himnil is that it connects why I use a himnil is that it connects why I use a himnil is that it connects my children to something that's bigger my children to something that's bigger my children to something that's bigger and broader and longer than themselves.

and broader and longer than themselves. and broader and longer than themselves. They see themselves as part of a bigger They see themselves as part of a bigger They see themselves as part of a bigger story. These themselves as part of a a story. These themselves as part of a a story. These themselves as part of a a legacy, a family of faith. And I think legacy, a family of faith. And I think legacy, a family of faith. And I think that's something that's been lost in a that's something that's been lost in a that's something that's been lost in a lot of contemporary churches and the lot of contemporary churches and the lot of contemporary churches and the loss of of home worship. But it's loss of of home worship. But it's loss of of home worship. But it's something that I think you guys are something that I think you guys are something that I think you guys are making a a huge contribution to. And I I making a a huge contribution to. And I I making a a huge contribution to. And I I mean I I'm so excited about this because mean I I'm so excited about this because mean I I'm so excited about this because my family my family devotions consist of my family my family devotions consist of my family my family devotions consist of the the new city catechism which is a the the new city catechism which is a the the new city catechism which is a crossway project that I worked closely crossway project that I worked closely crossway project that I worked closely with with Tim Keller on. Then we work with with Tim Keller on. Then we work with with Tim Keller on. Then we work through the we work through uh the through the we work through uh the through the we work through uh the biggest story and those videos with biggest story and those videos with biggest story and those videos with Kevin D. Young another crossway project. Kevin D. Young another crossway project. Kevin D. Young another crossway project. And then we go over the piano and now we And then we go over the piano and now we And then we go over the piano and now we have the sing himnil. wonderful uh have the sing himnil. wonderful uh have the sing himnil. wonderful uh crossway project there as well. And I crossway project there as well. And I crossway project there as well. And I want to read something, Keith, from your want to read something, Keith, from your want to read something, Keith, from your introduction. Uh something that you and introduction. Uh something that you and introduction. Uh something that you and Kristen write. It's so important. You Kristen write. It's so important. You Kristen write. It's so important. You say, "Some of the earliest memories say, "Some of the earliest memories say, "Some of the earliest memories either of us can remember are of singing either of us can remember are of singing either of us can remember are of singing with others at church. The accompaniment with others at church. The accompaniment with others at church. The accompaniment begins song book pages, Russell, and begins song book pages, Russell, and begins song book pages, Russell, and that first shared breath is drawn as old that first shared breath is drawn as old that first shared breath is drawn as old and young step into a hymn together. We and young step into a hymn together. We and young step into a hymn together. We are so grateful to have been raised in are so grateful to have been raised in are so grateful to have been raised in homes where singing to the Lord as a homes where singing to the Lord as a homes where singing to the Lord as a part of God's family was the most part of God's family was the most part of God's family was the most natural and fitting thing in the world.

natural and fitting thing in the world. natural and fitting thing in the world. Treasure is the highest expression of Treasure is the highest expression of Treasure is the highest expression of the creator's gift of music. But it is the creator's gift of music. But it is the creator's gift of music. But it is too risky for us to assume that deep too risky for us to assume that deep too risky for us to assume that deep belief in the truth of God will flow belief in the truth of God will flow belief in the truth of God will flow with ease to the next generation. That with ease to the next generation. That with ease to the next generation. That depth must always be mined and cherished depth must always be mined and cherished depth must always be mined and cherished and taught. That's just beautiful, and taught. That's just beautiful, and taught. That's just beautiful, profound, poignant. Keith, just tell us profound, poignant. Keith, just tell us profound, poignant. Keith, just tell us a little bit more about how the symbol a little bit more about how the symbol a little bit more about how the symbol came about, your vision for it. came about, your vision for it. came about, your vision for it. >> No, that's sure. It's and it's a huge >> No, that's sure. It's and it's a huge >> No, that's sure. It's and it's a huge it's been a huge team team effort. it's been a huge team team effort. it's been a huge team team effort. Anyone who knows me knows I can I can Anyone who knows me knows I can I can Anyone who knows me knows I can I can barely you know I can barely organize barely you know I can barely organize barely you know I can barely organize how to get downtown for dinner without how to get downtown for dinner without how to get downtown for dinner without making a mess of it. And so you know it making a mess of it. And so you know it making a mess of it. And so you know it really when you when you have that really when you when you have that really when you when you have that limited organizational ability it should limited organizational ability it should limited organizational ability it should always be acknowledged that it's a always be acknowledged that it's a always be acknowledged that it's a project with many many people John project with many many people John project with many many people John Martin and the Getty music team Josh Martin and the Getty music team Josh Martin and the Getty music team Josh Dennis and the Crossway team you know Dennis and the Crossway team you know Dennis and the Crossway team you know all hugely part of it. So I um but I all hugely part of it. So I um but I all hugely part of it. So I um but I think it was a number of things. I think think it was a number of things. I think think it was a number of things. I think the the probably the two biggest the the probably the two biggest the the probably the two biggest convictions were that that everybody convictions were that that everybody convictions were that that everybody today needs to be singing more of the today needs to be singing more of the today needs to be singing more of the hymns that have lasted and number two hymns that have lasted and number two hymns that have lasted and number two that every person in leadership today that every person in leadership today that every person in leadership today needs to be curating what is sung and so needs to be curating what is sung and so needs to be curating what is sung and so even for those whether you're coming to even for those whether you're coming to even for those whether you're coming to the singer to do the himynil whether the singer to do the himynil whether the singer to do the himynil whether you're picking up the himnil that's our you're picking up the himnil that's our you're picking up the himnil that's our two prayers that's the two ways I think two prayers that's the two ways I think two prayers that's the two ways I think we can really we that that that that we we can really we that that that that we we can really we that that that that we can really help make a significant shift can really help make a significant shift can really help make a significant shift into the pastoral health um of the next into the pastoral health um of the next into the pastoral health um of the next generation and the church broadly. Um generation and the church broadly. Um generation and the church broadly. Um you know it's it's interesting if I you know it's it's interesting if I you know it's it's interesting if I could go back you know I'm so thankful could go back you know I'm so thankful could go back you know I'm so thankful for the opportunities I've had in the for the opportunities I've had in the for the opportunities I've had in the last 25 years but if I could go back and

last 25 years but if I could go back and last 25 years but if I could go back and do it all again I I think I would have do it all again I I think I would have do it all again I I think I would have prioritized things a little bit prioritized things a little bit prioritized things a little bit different back in 18 before before different back in 18 before before different back in 18 before before Packer and I had the whole link between Packer and I had the whole link between Packer and I had the whole link between the the ESV and the single I I got to do the the ESV and the single I I got to do the the ESV and the single I I got to do the last interview of his life and he the last interview of his life and he the last interview of his life and he talked for almost four hours on worship. talked for almost four hours on worship. talked for almost four hours on worship. Now, that doesn't necessarily need a lot Now, that doesn't necessarily need a lot Now, that doesn't necessarily need a lot of content cuz he talked very very of content cuz he talked very very of content cuz he talked very very slowly by that point. But one of the slowly by that point. But one of the slowly by that point. But one of the things one of the things he said was I I things one of the things he said was I I things one of the things he said was I I I think um I think we need three old I think um I think we need three old I think um I think we need three old hymns for every new hymn. I say I think hymns for every new hymn. I say I think hymns for every new hymn. I say I think I think given given the pastoral value I think given given the pastoral value I think given given the pastoral value that knowing a hymn that you will sing that knowing a hymn that you will sing that knowing a hymn that you will sing for 50 years has as opposed to knowing a for 50 years has as opposed to knowing a for 50 years has as opposed to knowing a song that you will sing for maximum 5 song that you will sing for maximum 5 song that you will sing for maximum 5 years. Given the difference in that, I years. Given the difference in that, I years. Given the difference in that, I can't see a logic that says we should be can't see a logic that says we should be can't see a logic that says we should be singing any more than one for every singing any more than one for every singing any more than one for every three old hymns. I mean CS Lewis of three old hymns. I mean CS Lewis of three old hymns. I mean CS Lewis of course famously said it course famously said it course famously said it >> say read one book for every one old book >> say read one book for every one old book >> say read one book for every one old book and the book of Jeremiah and the book of Jeremiah and the book of Jeremiah >> reminds us about the old trodden paths. >> reminds us about the old trodden paths. >> reminds us about the old trodden paths. And so I think from the start obviously And so I think from the start obviously And so I think from the start obviously when we got involved in 2000 there was when we got involved in 2000 there was when we got involved in 2000 there was such a buzz around modern worship music such a buzz around modern worship music such a buzz around modern worship music and we we were kind of just desperate if and we we were kind of just desperate if and we we were kind of just desperate if we don't get some new songs out there we don't get some new songs out there we don't get some new songs out there that are saying something you know there that are saying something you know there that are saying something you know there the battle the battle for truth the the battle the battle for truth the the battle the battle for truth the battle for even just gospel battle for even just gospel battle for even just gospel sanctification was being spectacularly sanctification was being spectacularly sanctification was being spectacularly lost in what was being sung in churches lost in what was being sung in churches lost in what was being sung in churches and the confusion amongst leaders and and the confusion amongst leaders and and the confusion amongst leaders and the ineptness to have any kind of bigger the ineptness to have any kind of bigger the ineptness to have any kind of bigger bigger vision or defense even defensive bigger vision or defense even defensive bigger vision or defense even defensive respon response was nowhere. And so we respon response was nowhere. And so we respon response was nowhere. And so we we were we were very obsessed. We're we were we were very obsessed. We're we were we were very obsessed. We're trying to write a few decent songs. But trying to write a few decent songs. But trying to write a few decent songs. But I mean, I think I would have tried to I mean, I think I would have tried to I mean, I think I would have tried to sooner encourage people to sing the

sooner encourage people to sing the sooner encourage people to sing the great hymns that we know will last. great hymns that we know will last. great hymns that we know will last. Obviously, we hope some of ours might Obviously, we hope some of ours might Obviously, we hope some of ours might last for a while, but there really isn't last for a while, but there really isn't last for a while, but there really isn't a whole lot of evidence, you know, a whole lot of evidence, you know, a whole lot of evidence, you know, unless we can go forward in a time unless we can go forward in a time unless we can go forward in a time machine to know that. machine to know that. machine to know that. >> Um, so that's the first thing. And then >> Um, so that's the first thing. And then >> Um, so that's the first thing. And then I think the second the second thing is I think the second the second thing is I think the second the second thing is that that that I think the curation of that that that I think the curation of that that that I think the curation of our worship services. I think if Martin our worship services. I think if Martin our worship services. I think if Martin Luther could come back today, I think if Luther could come back today, I think if Luther could come back today, I think if St. August could come back today. the St. August could come back today. the St. August could come back today. the curation of the worship service would be curation of the worship service would be curation of the worship service would be their a bigger concern for them even their a bigger concern for them even their a bigger concern for them even even than preaching simply because um even than preaching simply because um even than preaching simply because um you know most of church history was was you know most of church history was was you know most of church history was was was built largely in the psalms and when was built largely in the psalms and when was built largely in the psalms and when it wasn't it was built on lit lurggical it wasn't it was built on lit lurggical it wasn't it was built on lit lurggical services localized singing um um or or services localized singing um um or or services localized singing um um or or or then of course postgutenberg print or then of course postgutenberg print or then of course postgutenberg print and press and and Martin Luther was and press and and Martin Luther was and press and and Martin Luther was himnels and uh in a new world where you himnels and uh in a new world where you himnels and uh in a new world where you have over 300,000 songs in the CCLI song have over 300,000 songs in the CCLI song have over 300,000 songs in the CCLI song book and most pastors most pastors kind book and most pastors most pastors kind book and most pastors most pastors kind of turning a blind eye or washing their of turning a blind eye or washing their of turning a blind eye or washing their hands of what's being sung in their hands of what's being sung in their hands of what's being sung in their churches or at least having a vision of churches or at least having a vision of churches or at least having a vision of what's being sung in their churches that what's being sung in their churches that what's being sung in their churches that then works its way down. I think I think then works its way down. I think I think then works its way down. I think I think we're in a we're some we're we're we're in a we're some we're we're we're in a we're some we're we're reaching a lot of very dangerous ground reaching a lot of very dangerous ground reaching a lot of very dangerous ground and and uh so I think that's the two and and uh so I think that's the two and and uh so I think that's the two goals. If and if the himnil can do that, goals. If and if the himnil can do that, goals. If and if the himnil can do that, if the himynil can do that by if the himynil can do that by if the himynil can do that by introducing some great hymns and by introducing some great hymns and by introducing some great hymns and by creating a form of curation, then we are creating a form of curation, then we are creating a form of curation, then we are thrilled. But secondly, even if it thrilled. But secondly, even if it thrilled. But secondly, even if it doesn't do that, if it raises the issue doesn't do that, if it raises the issue doesn't do that, if it raises the issue of the great hymns that we sing and of the great hymns that we sing and of the great hymns that we sing and church leaders and family leaders church leaders and family leaders church leaders and family leaders saying, here are the hymns we want our saying, here are the hymns we want our saying, here are the hymns we want our people to grow old with, then I think I

people to grow old with, then I think I people to grow old with, then I think I think that's an important thing. I find think that's an important thing. I find think that's an important thing. I find it interesting, Keith, that it interesting, Keith, that it interesting, Keith, that a a classic hymn doesn't sound to me a a classic hymn doesn't sound to me a a classic hymn doesn't sound to me today out of fashion. It sounds actually today out of fashion. It sounds actually today out of fashion. It sounds actually kind of timeless and classic. Whereas kind of timeless and classic. Whereas kind of timeless and classic. Whereas sometimes the contemporary music can sometimes the contemporary music can sometimes the contemporary music can feel very dated, like say, "Oh, that feel very dated, like say, "Oh, that feel very dated, like say, "Oh, that really sounds like this particular point really sounds like this particular point really sounds like this particular point in time." Is that does that fit into in time." Is that does that fit into in time." Is that does that fit into your vision at all as well of just your vision at all as well of just your vision at all as well of just singing songs that you know are going to singing songs that you know are going to singing songs that you know are going to last and are not going to feel like oh last and are not going to feel like oh last and are not going to feel like oh that belonged to like I can I can smell that belonged to like I can I can smell that belonged to like I can I can smell what that song sounds like I can see it what that song sounds like I can see it what that song sounds like I can see it cuz I can see the clothes that people cuz I can see the clothes that people cuz I can see the clothes that people were wearing. Is that part of the vision were wearing. Is that part of the vision were wearing. Is that part of the vision too? too? too? >> I think certainly being able to sing a >> I think certainly being able to sing a >> I think certainly being able to sing a song that you can live with for 50 song that you can live with for 50 song that you can live with for 50 years. The an obvious illustration being years. The an obvious illustration being years. The an obvious illustration being Irish is to take Beyond My Vision which Irish is to take Beyond My Vision which Irish is to take Beyond My Vision which is which is probably the oldest Irish is which is probably the oldest Irish is which is probably the oldest Irish hymn. Um cuz if for no other reason than hymn. Um cuz if for no other reason than hymn. Um cuz if for no other reason than at least it was inspired by St. at least it was inspired by St. at least it was inspired by St. Patrick's breastplate, but Patrick's breastplate, but Patrick's breastplate, but >> it doesn't sound old is my point. That's >> it doesn't sound old is my point. That's >> it doesn't sound old is my point. That's right. It doesn't sound old. It sounds right. It doesn't sound old. It sounds right. It doesn't sound old. It sounds classic. It sounds timeless.

classic. It sounds timeless. classic. It sounds timeless. >> And then and then when you're talking to >> And then and then when you're talking to >> And then and then when you're talking to the pastors, pastors who are listening the pastors, pastors who are listening the pastors, pastors who are listening to this conversation, parents and to this conversation, parents and to this conversation, parents and grandparents who are listening to this grandparents who are listening to this grandparents who are listening to this conversation, you think about be thy my conversation, you think about be thy my conversation, you think about be thy my vision. Then you think about your vision. Then you think about your vision. Then you think about your grandchildren, your your people and say grandchildren, your your people and say grandchildren, your your people and say be thy my wisdom. Then you think about be thy my wisdom. Then you think about be thy my wisdom. Then you think about temptation. And I think of my children temptation. And I think of my children temptation. And I think of my children going to college. And I think be thy my going to college. And I think be thy my going to college. And I think be thy my breastplate sword for the fight. And breastplate sword for the fight. And breastplate sword for the fight. And then I think of my kids going off and then I think of my kids going off and then I think of my kids going off and however life treats them. And and however life treats them. And and however life treats them. And and they'll all have different levels of they'll all have different levels of they'll all have different levels of successes. And I think of riches I heed successes. And I think of riches I heed successes. And I think of riches I heed not nor man's empty praise thy mine not nor man's empty praise thy mine not nor man's empty praise thy mine inheritance. And then of course the fact inheritance. And then of course the fact inheritance. And then of course the fact that all of us um death and taxes come that all of us um death and taxes come that all of us um death and taxes come on all of us. And so high king of heaven on all of us. And so high king of heaven on all of us. And so high king of heaven after victory one. There is a song that after victory one. There is a song that after victory one. There is a song that speaks to my whole life for my whole speaks to my whole life for my whole speaks to my whole life for my whole life and gives me gives me language life and gives me gives me language life and gives me gives me language gives me a sung grammar that will gives me a sung grammar that will gives me a sung grammar that will actually affect my prayer life and my actually affect my prayer life and my actually affect my prayer life and my thinking and my actions and my thinking and my actions and my thinking and my actions and my reactions. So yeah, that that is that is reactions. So yeah, that that is that is reactions. So yeah, that that is that is that is why it is so important and that is why it is so important and that is why it is so important and that's why kind of doing tool pastors that's why kind of doing tool pastors that's why kind of doing tool pastors who do tools down and let them sing the who do tools down and let them sing the who do tools down and let them sing the modern songs in their churches are are modern songs in their churches are are modern songs in their churches are are crippling their congregations by their crippling their congregations by their crippling their congregations by their cowardice and their inaction and uh and cowardice and their inaction and uh and cowardice and their inaction and uh and uh the the modern worship music is I uh the the modern worship music is I uh the the modern worship music is I mean at a general level is trying to mean at a general level is trying to mean at a general level is trying to write songs that sound relevant to the write songs that sound relevant to the write songs that sound relevant to the music of the moment which means by music of the moment which means by music of the moment which means by logical deduction ask CS Lewis Tolken or logical deduction ask CS Lewis Tolken or logical deduction ask CS Lewis Tolken or anybody else um in 10 years time they anybody else um in 10 years time they anybody else um in 10 years time they will not sound logical you don't need to will not sound logical you don't need to will not sound logical you don't need to ask listen to Tken you can ask any one ask listen to Tken you can ask any one ask listen to Tken you can ask any one of your kids you know that because they

of your kids you know that because they of your kids you know that because they they're not listening to stuff that was they're not listening to stuff that was they're not listening to stuff that was written 10 years ago and so that's the written 10 years ago and so that's the written 10 years ago and so that's the thing and and perhaps uh women without I thing and and perhaps uh women without I thing and and perhaps uh women without I mean even the even in contemporary mean even the even in contemporary mean even the even in contemporary Christian music you're you're you're Christian music you're you're you're Christian music you're you're you're basically building a significant a basically building a significant a basically building a significant a significantly sized industry which is significantly sized industry which is significantly sized industry which is based on Christian radio which is trying based on Christian radio which is trying based on Christian radio which is trying to reach two very specific people who to reach two very specific people who to reach two very specific people who are at very specific times in their are at very specific times in their are at very specific times in their lives in 2 and it's 54 with something lives in 2 and it's 54 with something lives in 2 and it's 54 with something that makes them feel good in drive time. that makes them feel good in drive time. that makes them feel good in drive time. That's that's the business. And there's That's that's the business. And there's That's that's the business. And there's nothing wrong with that business. That nothing wrong with that business. That nothing wrong with that business. That that's that's a perfectly legitimate and that's that's a perfectly legitimate and that's that's a perfectly legitimate and largely I would say probably more largely I would say probably more largely I would say probably more wholesome than not wholesome uh thing to wholesome than not wholesome uh thing to wholesome than not wholesome uh thing to have. But it's it's it shouldn't be have. But it's it's it shouldn't be have. But it's it's it shouldn't be what's deciding our Sunday worship. It what's deciding our Sunday worship. It what's deciding our Sunday worship. It shouldn't be the thing that is governing shouldn't be the thing that is governing shouldn't be the thing that is governing how our people understand God, how they how our people understand God, how they how our people understand God, how they understand sin, how they understand uh understand sin, how they understand uh understand sin, how they understand uh forgiveness, how they understand how we forgiveness, how they understand how we forgiveness, how they understand how we interact with ourselves, our families, interact with ourselves, our families, interact with ourselves, our families, our our churches, our communities, and a our our churches, our communities, and a our our churches, our communities, and a lost world that that that that needs the lost world that that that that needs the lost world that that that that needs the few minutes that we have left in this few minutes that we have left in this few minutes that we have left in this earth um to to serve Christ and his earth um to to serve Christ and his earth um to to serve Christ and his gospel and his kingdom.

gospel and his kingdom. gospel and his kingdom. Charles Wesley wrote maybe as many as Charles Wesley wrote maybe as many as Charles Wesley wrote maybe as many as 9,000 different hymns. We're not quite 9,000 different hymns. We're not quite 9,000 different hymns. We're not quite sure. sure. sure. >> He wrote a lot. He was pretty good. >> He wrote a lot. He was pretty good. >> He wrote a lot. He was pretty good. >> He was pretty good. But I think what's >> He was pretty good. But I think what's >> He was pretty good. But I think what's interesting is that he's not good interesting is that he's not good interesting is that he's not good because of the volume. He's good because because of the volume. He's good because because of the volume. He's good because of the few songs that endured. of the few songs that endured. of the few songs that endured. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And they're absolute classics. What >> And they're absolute classics. What >> And they're absolute classics. What makes an excellent hymn? I'm just makes an excellent hymn? I'm just makes an excellent hymn? I'm just wondering what criteria did you guys use wondering what criteria did you guys use wondering what criteria did you guys use for choosing the 500 songs in the for choosing the 500 songs in the for choosing the 500 songs in the Himnil? It's it's a different standard Himnil? It's it's a different standard Himnil? It's it's a different standard because it's not like a screen where you because it's not like a screen where you because it's not like a screen where you can just add a new one tomorrow when it can just add a new one tomorrow when it can just add a new one tomorrow when it becomes popular and drop it out and becomes popular and drop it out and becomes popular and drop it out and nobody will know. You're locked in. At nobody will know. You're locked in. At nobody will know. You're locked in. At least just until you do a new new print least just until you do a new new print least just until you do a new new print edition, which obviously you could do. edition, which obviously you could do. edition, which obviously you could do. >> Well, of course, the funny answer to >> Well, of course, the funny answer to >> Well, of course, the funny answer to that question is if I knew what if I that question is if I knew what if I that question is if I knew what if I knew how to make a great him, I wouldn't knew how to make a great him, I wouldn't knew how to make a great him, I wouldn't tell you. I do it myself. Do you know tell you. I do it myself. Do you know tell you. I do it myself. Do you know what I mean? But uh but the question what I mean? But uh but the question what I mean? But uh but the question you're actually asking is how do you you're actually asking is how do you you're actually asking is how do you choose the ones that you do? And here's choose the ones that you do? And here's choose the ones that you do? And here's the thing. A himnil is simply a the thing. A himnil is simply a the thing. A himnil is simply a collection. I mean, the Psalms is the collection. I mean, the Psalms is the collection. I mean, the Psalms is the Bible's himnil. You know that's the sing Bible's himnil. You know that's the sing Bible's himnil. You know that's the sing conference this year we're we're doing conference this year we're we're doing conference this year we're we're doing we're doing the talks are predictably we're doing the talks are predictably we're doing the talks are predictably all on the psalms which is the bible all on the psalms which is the bible all on the psalms which is the bible symbol but a himnil is just a collection symbol but a himnil is just a collection symbol but a himnil is just a collection of pe songs for a for a collection if I of pe songs for a for a collection if I of pe songs for a for a collection if I was asked to write a himnil for urban was asked to write a himnil for urban was asked to write a himnil for urban churches today I wouldn't have done this churches today I wouldn't have done this churches today I wouldn't have done this if I was asked to write him for European if I was asked to write him for European if I was asked to write him for European churches or churches in South America or churches or churches in South America or churches or churches in South America or or churches for for expats across Europe or churches for for expats across Europe or churches for for expats across Europe I wouldn't I wouldn't have chosen these I wouldn't I wouldn't have chosen these I wouldn't I wouldn't have chosen these songs these songs were chosen for songs these songs were chosen for songs these songs were chosen for largely for people who are in in the largely for people who are in in the largely for people who are in in the crossway constituency and uh so so so crossway constituency and uh so so so crossway constituency and uh so so so you're you're thinking about so that

you're you're thinking about so that you're you're thinking about so that that's the first thing I would say is it that's the first thing I would say is it that's the first thing I would say is it it doesn't you know each each context it doesn't you know each each context it doesn't you know each each context would would would be at some levels would would would be at some levels would would would be at some levels different but but broadly broadly what different but but broadly broadly what different but but broadly broadly what we did we we we tried to find um about we did we we we tried to find um about we did we we we tried to find um about twothirds of the himnil was hymns that twothirds of the himnil was hymns that twothirds of the himnil was hymns that have lasted and we hope will last sorry have lasted and we hope will last sorry have lasted and we hope will last sorry three quarters were sorry threequarters three quarters were sorry threequarters three quarters were sorry threequarters of them were were hymns that have lasted of them were were hymns that have lasted of them were were hymns that have lasted are are valuable are playable in a are are valuable are playable in a are are valuable are playable in a modern church I don't require the beauty modern church I don't require the beauty modern church I don't require the beauty the pure beauty of coral music to work the pure beauty of coral music to work the pure beauty of coral music to work um although I myself obviously trained um although I myself obviously trained um although I myself obviously trained that way that way that way >> and then one quarter would be hymns >> and then one quarter would be hymns >> and then one quarter would be hymns written mostly in this last movement of written mostly in this last movement of written mostly in this last movement of the last 25 years which has been an the last 25 years which has been an the last 25 years which has been an unusual movement of actually what we unusual movement of actually what we unusual movement of actually what we consider pretty good quality hymns um consider pretty good quality hymns um consider pretty good quality hymns um because each himnel whether it's whether because each himnel whether it's whether because each himnel whether it's whether it's one Williams' himnil whether it's it's one Williams' himnil whether it's it's one Williams' himnil whether it's um it's trinity himnil whether it's um it's trinity himnil whether it's um it's trinity himnil whether it's whether it's Wesley's himnil watches him whether it's Wesley's himnil watches him whether it's Wesley's himnil watches him they all came on the back of a movement they all came on the back of a movement they all came on the back of a movement where there had been a new collection of where there had been a new collection of where there had been a new collection of hymns that weren't in a himnil. So in hymns that weren't in a himnil. So in hymns that weren't in a himnil. So in some ways this himnil will also be some ways this himnil will also be some ways this himnil will also be identified by the fact that it is the identified by the fact that it is the identified by the fact that it is the first major himnil to represent this first major himnil to represent this first major himnil to represent this modern movement of hymns and and include modern movement of hymns and and include modern movement of hymns and and include them. Uh so but but largely it's what them. Uh so but but largely it's what them. Uh so but but largely it's what are the hymns that I want to grow old are the hymns that I want to grow old are the hymns that I want to grow old with. That's the first thing and then with. That's the first thing and then with. That's the first thing and then and then but that work in a modern and then but that work in a modern and then but that work in a modern church that that that can exist.

church that that that can exist. church that that that can exist. Obviously I think it's better with a Obviously I think it's better with a Obviously I think it's better with a choir but doesn't have to have a choir choir but doesn't have to have a choir choir but doesn't have to have a choir because most churches today don't have a because most churches today don't have a because most churches today don't have a choir. And then what we did was we choir. And then what we did was we choir. And then what we did was we shaped we give it a lurggical shape. So shaped we give it a lurggical shape. So shaped we give it a lurggical shape. So we said let's look at let's look at the we said let's look at let's look at the we said let's look at let's look at the the liturgy of the service the liturgy the liturgy of the service the liturgy the liturgy of the service the liturgy of the Christian life and the liturgy of of the Christian life and the liturgy of of the Christian life and the liturgy of the life of Christ or or the churches the life of Christ or or the churches the life of Christ or or the churches here however you call it. And so we here however you call it. And so we here however you call it. And so we actually created each of those sections actually created each of those sections actually created each of those sections because that helped people shape a because that helped people shape a because that helped people shape a service that helps people shape have service that helps people shape have service that helps people shape have have language for each part of life and have language for each part of life and have language for each part of life and then helped to understand each part of then helped to understand each part of then helped to understand each part of Christ's life and teachings. And so we Christ's life and teachings. And so we Christ's life and teachings. And so we did it that way but we did a couple of did it that way but we did a couple of did it that way but we did a couple of things that were a little bit different. things that were a little bit different. things that were a little bit different. We included obviously a lot of Bible We included obviously a lot of Bible We included obviously a lot of Bible passages from the ESV and and also passages from the ESV and and also passages from the ESV and and also prayers, liturgies and quotes mostly prayers, liturgies and quotes mostly prayers, liturgies and quotes mostly from Christian history but we also went from Christian history but we also went from Christian history but we also went to so many of the people over the years to so many of the people over the years to so many of the people over the years who've contributed to the sing himnel who've contributed to the sing himnel who've contributed to the sing himnel from Tim Keller to John Piper to John from Tim Keller to John Piper to John from Tim Keller to John Piper to John MacArthur to the more creative end of it MacArthur to the more creative end of it MacArthur to the more creative end of it from from Salo Jones to to Malcolm Gite from from Salo Jones to to Malcolm Gite from from Salo Jones to to Malcolm Gite and uh and and Kristen the number of her and uh and and Kristen the number of her and uh and and Kristen the number of her prayers that she's done over the years. prayers that she's done over the years. prayers that she's done over the years. So there was so we tried to give people So there was so we tried to give people So there was so we tried to give people I think I think so much of the battle I think I think so much of the battle I think I think so much of the battle today isn't just for what we're singing today isn't just for what we're singing today isn't just for what we're singing in our church but it's for how we pray in our church but it's for how we pray in our church but it's for how we pray it's for how we shape the service um and it's for how we shape the service um and it's for how we shape the service um and just also the the value of just reading just also the the value of just reading just also the the value of just reading the Bible in our church services which the Bible in our church services which the Bible in our church services which is so huge. So we started to do and then is so huge. So we started to do and then is so huge. So we started to do and then and then we we also tried to do we tried and then we we also tried to do we tried and then we we also tried to do we tried to at the back of it we did a story to at the back of it we did a story to at the back of it we did a story behind every hymn in the book. So to try behind every hymn in the book. So to try behind every hymn in the book. So to try and give make a himnil with personality and give make a himnil with personality and give make a himnil with personality that that people can understand why this that that people can understand why this that that people can understand why this him was important because most people him was important because most people him was important because most people you know when your parents grew up and you know when your parents grew up and you know when your parents grew up and got a new himnil they presumed to know

got a new himnil they presumed to know got a new himnil they presumed to know threearters of it but we're curious what threearters of it but we're curious what threearters of it but we're curious what the new ones would be. Most people today the new ones would be. Most people today the new ones would be. Most people today will not know threequarters of this will not know threequarters of this will not know threequarters of this himnil um or even why they should have a himnil um or even why they should have a himnil um or even why they should have a himnil. So, so that's actually a whole himnil. So, so that's actually a whole himnil. So, so that's actually a whole new that's a whole new culture shift new that's a whole new culture shift new that's a whole new culture shift that we're having to fight against cuz that we're having to fight against cuz that we're having to fight against cuz most people are going why would we even most people are going why would we even most people are going why would we even have a himnel? Aren't there aren't there have a himnel? Aren't there aren't there have a himnel? Aren't there aren't there screens now and uh you know we've we've screens now and uh you know we've we've screens now and uh you know we've we've stopped using typewriters so so why stopped using typewriters so so why stopped using typewriters so so why would we have a himnel? So would we have a himnel? So would we have a himnel? So >> um and most of our books are on our >> um and most of our books are on our >> um and most of our books are on our phone. phone. phone. >> Um so there's a so I think there's a >> Um so there's a so I think there's a >> Um so there's a so I think there's a there's a there's an issue there too. there's a there's an issue there too. there's a there's an issue there too. >> Let's talk about that specific issue >> Let's talk about that specific issue >> Let's talk about that specific issue right there a little bit more. How has right there a little bit more. How has right there a little bit more. How has the shift away from printed music to the shift away from printed music to the shift away from printed music to projected lyrics changed the average projected lyrics changed the average projected lyrics changed the average Christian's experience of music, Christian's experience of music, Christian's experience of music, especially in the context of a worship especially in the context of a worship especially in the context of a worship service? service? service? >> No, it's a great question. It's a great >> No, it's a great question. It's a great >> No, it's a great question. It's a great question and obviously it deserves a question and obviously it deserves a question and obviously it deserves a much longer answer than I can give you. much longer answer than I can give you. much longer answer than I can give you. Um, I think if you're a pastor or a Um, I think if you're a pastor or a Um, I think if you're a pastor or a worship leader, um, or again a concerned worship leader, um, or again a concerned worship leader, um, or again a concerned a concerned parent, um, I think the key a concerned parent, um, I think the key a concerned parent, um, I think the key issues are that if you put songs in a issues are that if you put songs in a issues are that if you put songs in a screen, you're no longer curating screen, you're no longer curating screen, you're no longer curating because you can set anything on a because you can set anything on a because you can set anything on a screen. So I think you have to look at screen. So I think you have to look at screen. So I think you have to look at what that means is are you protecting what that means is are you protecting what that means is are you protecting your church from from songs that are not your church from from songs that are not your church from from songs that are not helpful helpful. But even more than helpful helpful. But even more than helpful helpful. But even more than that, just doing once you once you move that, just doing once you once you move that, just doing once you once you move away from the kind of a lurggical away from the kind of a lurggical away from the kind of a lurggical framework or expositional Bible framework or expositional Bible framework or expositional Bible teaching, once you move away from those teaching, once you move away from those teaching, once you move away from those kind of guard rails, um you're not kind of guard rails, um you're not kind of guard rails, um you're not sinning, but you are subject to kind of sinning, but you are subject to kind of sinning, but you are subject to kind of going after your whims rather than going after your whims rather than going after your whims rather than having a broad picture of the godhood.

having a broad picture of the godhood. having a broad picture of the godhood. You're less likely to sing immortal, You're less likely to sing immortal, You're less likely to sing immortal, invisible, God only wise, in light, invisible, God only wise, in light, invisible, God only wise, in light, inaccessible, hid from our eyes, most inaccessible, hid from our eyes, most inaccessible, hid from our eyes, most blessed, most glorious, the ancient of blessed, most glorious, the ancient of blessed, most glorious, the ancient of days, almighty, victorious, thy great days, almighty, victorious, thy great days, almighty, victorious, thy great name we praise. Because apart from name we praise. Because apart from name we praise. Because apart from anything else, it's not about us until anything else, it's not about us until anything else, it's not about us until the last three words. That's that's what the last three words. That's that's what the last three words. That's that's what I mean. It's the only thing that's I mean. It's the only thing that's I mean. It's the only thing that's objective. It's the only thing that's objective. It's the only thing that's objective. It's the only thing that's subjective. And we, you know, modern subjective. And we, you know, modern subjective. And we, you know, modern worship craves just subjectiveness and worship craves just subjectiveness and worship craves just subjectiveness and uh and also simple lyrics. Simple lyrics uh and also simple lyrics. Simple lyrics uh and also simple lyrics. Simple lyrics everybody can get the first time. So everybody can get the first time. So everybody can get the first time. So you've so you're your deep so you the you've so you're your deep so you the you've so you're your deep so you the you the creation issue you then the you the creation issue you then the you the creation issue you then the second issue is is the issue of words if second issue is is the issue of words if second issue is is the issue of words if you're doing a himnil a lyric has to you're doing a himnil a lyric has to you're doing a himnil a lyric has to look good feel good be passed around look good feel good be passed around look good feel good be passed around people and go wow this is a beautiful people and go wow this is a beautiful people and go wow this is a beautiful lyric you know what I mean it has to lyric you know what I mean it has to lyric you know what I mean it has to have a poetic realm to it to to be have a poetic realm to it to to be have a poetic realm to it to to be because a himnel lasts for 25 years when because a himnel lasts for 25 years when because a himnel lasts for 25 years when you're making a himnil this is another you're making a himnil this is another you're making a himnil this is another interesting point when you make a himnil interesting point when you make a himnil interesting point when you make a himnil one of your questions has to be will one of your questions has to be will one of your questions has to be will this lyric will this himnel will this this lyric will this himnel will this this lyric will this himnel will this hymn last for the duration of the hymn last for the duration of the hymn last for the duration of the publication. So we have to keep going publication. So we have to keep going publication. So we have to keep going back to if this is going to last for 14 back to if this is going to last for 14 back to if this is going to last for 14 to 30 years, will the hymn be good for to 30 years, will the hymn be good for to 30 years, will the hymn be good for 14 to 30 years? It's a different 14 to 30 years? It's a different 14 to 30 years? It's a different question is then modern worship where question is then modern worship where question is then modern worship where worshippers on Sunday are not going oh I worshippers on Sunday are not going oh I worshippers on Sunday are not going oh I wonder will our church be singing this wonder will our church be singing this wonder will our church be singing this in 25 years. No most doesn't even go in 25 years. No most doesn't even go in 25 years. No most doesn't even go through their head. So through their head. So through their head. So >> well that goes back to one thing I was >> well that goes back to one thing I was >> well that goes back to one thing I was wondering about before in contemporary wondering about before in contemporary wondering about before in contemporary music. A song 14 years old is ancient.

music. A song 14 years old is ancient. music. A song 14 years old is ancient. Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, >> that's impossible to fathom. The the the >> that's impossible to fathom. The the the >> that's impossible to fathom. The the the turnover time is really quick. It's like turnover time is really quick. It's like turnover time is really quick. It's like a song goes from written, nobody's ever a song goes from written, nobody's ever a song goes from written, nobody's ever heard of it before, written to sung on heard of it before, written to sung on heard of it before, written to sung on the radio, super popular, and then it's the radio, super popular, and then it's the radio, super popular, and then it's just gone because it just there's a new just gone because it just there's a new just gone because it just there's a new one that's down from the same group and one that's down from the same group and one that's down from the same group and that's that everybody's listening to that's that everybody's listening to that's that everybody's listening to now. There just not a lot of continuity now. There just not a lot of continuity now. There just not a lot of continuity there as well. That's I think another there as well. That's I think another there as well. That's I think another one of those changes. Um, now technology one of those changes. Um, now technology one of those changes. Um, now technology has given us access to hundreds of has given us access to hundreds of has given us access to hundreds of thousands of songs to choose for thousands of songs to choose for thousands of songs to choose for congregational worship. Why should a congregational worship. Why should a congregational worship. Why should a church invest and in many ways we don't church invest and in many ways we don't church invest and in many ways we don't even necessarily have the architecture even necessarily have the architecture even necessarily have the architecture within our churches to handle the the within our churches to handle the the within our churches to handle the the the written books in some ways? Why the written books in some ways? Why the written books in some ways? Why should a church invest in a set of should a church invest in a set of should a church invest in a set of hardbound himnels instead of just hardbound himnels instead of just hardbound himnels instead of just relying on a digital subscription to a relying on a digital subscription to a relying on a digital subscription to a song database? song database? song database? >> Yeah, I think it's probably two or three >> Yeah, I think it's probably two or three >> Yeah, I think it's probably two or three different arguments for it. I think the different arguments for it. I think the different arguments for it. I think the first one is it gives you a curation. first one is it gives you a curation. first one is it gives you a curation. These are hymns that we feel are These are hymns that we feel are These are hymns that we feel are valuable and so it gives people a sort valuable and so it gives people a sort valuable and so it gives people a sort of a safe level. Secondly, it helps of a safe level. Secondly, it helps of a safe level. Secondly, it helps people under get a lot of the great people under get a lot of the great people under get a lot of the great hymns of history. It you know um the hymns of history. It you know um the hymns of history. It you know um the history is such an interesting issue history is such an interesting issue history is such an interesting issue because it really is in politics they because it really is in politics they because it really is in politics they talk about wraparound issues. Do you talk about wraparound issues. Do you talk about wraparound issues. Do you know what I mean? So for example um uh know what I mean? So for example um uh know what I mean? So for example um uh privacy is a wraparound issue. The privacy is a wraparound issue. The privacy is a wraparound issue. The extreme right and extreme left care extreme right and extreme left care extreme right and extreme left care about care about privacy. everybody in about care about privacy. everybody in about care about privacy. everybody in the middle kind of goes, well, you know, the middle kind of goes, well, you know, the middle kind of goes, well, you know, to be safe in this world, it's probably to be safe in this world, it's probably to be safe in this world, it's probably there's probably stuff happening, but we there's probably stuff happening, but we there's probably stuff happening, but we don't really care. It's not a major don't really care. It's not a major don't really care. It's not a major issue for us. Um, in in the church

issue for us. Um, in in the church issue for us. Um, in in the church today, under 25s and over 60s really today, under 25s and over 60s really today, under 25s and over 60s really care about history. The folks in the care about history. The folks in the care about history. The folks in the middle don't don't really care about it middle don't don't really care about it middle don't don't really care about it so much. So it actually is while it's so much. So it actually is while it's so much. So it actually is while it's something that the older generation are something that the older generation are something that the older generation are still shouting about, older worship still shouting about, older worship still shouting about, older worship leaders are shouting about, it's leaders are shouting about, it's leaders are shouting about, it's actually as vocal an issue for people actually as vocal an issue for people actually as vocal an issue for people who are under 25 because you know they who are under 25 because you know they who are under 25 because you know they want to go into a city church and know want to go into a city church and know want to go into a city church and know that if you're at university, you want that if you're at university, you want that if you're at university, you want to go to church and you're thinking to go to church and you're thinking to go to church and you're thinking about life. A hymn that has been around about life. A hymn that has been around about life. A hymn that has been around since the seventh century or singing a since the seventh century or singing a since the seventh century or singing a version of the Psalms is a whole lot version of the Psalms is a whole lot version of the Psalms is a whole lot more believable than some shoddy piece more believable than some shoddy piece more believable than some shoddy piece of poetry that sounds like 10 years of poetry that sounds like 10 years of poetry that sounds like 10 years ago's music that somebody at the front ago's music that somebody at the front ago's music that somebody at the front is like is doing some acrobatics about. is like is doing some acrobatics about. is like is doing some acrobatics about. Do you know what I mean? And so I think Do you know what I mean? And so I think Do you know what I mean? And so I think I think you know people have to I think you know people have to I think you know people have to understand actually where culture is understand actually where culture is understand actually where culture is going faster than they can imagine you going faster than they can imagine you going faster than they can imagine you know and uh so I think I think I think know and uh so I think I think I think know and uh so I think I think I think the I think the great hymns of history I the I think the great hymns of history I the I think the great hymns of history I think curation is huge. present the think curation is huge. present the think curation is huge. present the great hymns of history huge but also I great hymns of history huge but also I great hymns of history huge but also I think having a publication like this we think having a publication like this we think having a publication like this we live with the stuff more you know it's live with the stuff more you know it's live with the stuff more you know it's we live with the stuff more my I had we live with the stuff more my I had we live with the stuff more my I had four grandparents as many have and they four grandparents as many have and they four grandparents as many have and they all had him books by their bedside all had him books by their bedside all had him books by their bedside >> they also have them on the piano in the >> they also have them on the piano in the >> they also have them on the piano in the living room and so you end up spending a living room and so you end up spending a living room and so you end up spending a lot of your dead time instead of lot of your dead time instead of lot of your dead time instead of flicking onto your screen your on your flicking onto your screen your on your flicking onto your screen your on your on your phone you actually just start on your phone you actually just start on your phone you actually just start reading here I've just opened it here reading here I've just opened it here reading here I've just opened it here may the mind of Christ my savior live in may the mind of Christ my savior live in may the mind of Christ my savior live in me from day to day by his love and power me from day to day by his love and power me from day to day by his love and power controlling all I do or say. Then may controlling all I do or say. Then may controlling all I do or say. Then may the word of God dwell richly. And may the word of God dwell richly. And may the word of God dwell richly. And may the love of Jesus fill me. May his

the love of Jesus fill me. May his the love of Jesus fill me. May his beauty rest upon me. May I run the race beauty rest upon me. May I run the race beauty rest upon me. May I run the race before me. That was written by a lady, a before me. That was written by a lady, a before me. That was written by a lady, a brilliant poet who invested most of her brilliant poet who invested most of her brilliant poet who invested most of her time in in in children's homes in time in in in children's homes in time in in in children's homes in London. So I I I will be pretty sure as London. So I I I will be pretty sure as London. So I I I will be pretty sure as a writer that as she wrote that she was a writer that as she wrote that she was a writer that as she wrote that she was imagining some of the little girls that imagining some of the little girls that imagining some of the little girls that she'd rescued who were orphans and she she'd rescued who were orphans and she she'd rescued who were orphans and she was praying that for them. And I'm was praying that for them. And I'm was praying that for them. And I'm filling my mind up with that right now filling my mind up with that right now filling my mind up with that right now because you know I have these hymns all because you know I have these hymns all because you know I have these hymns all over my house. They probably want me to over my house. They probably want me to over my house. They probably want me to sign them and I'm probably not going to sign them and I'm probably not going to sign them and I'm probably not going to go. I'm probably not going to sign them go. I'm probably not going to sign them go. I'm probably not going to sign them just cuz I have to give them away again. just cuz I have to give them away again. just cuz I have to give them away again. So I'm going to keep them. Don't come So I'm going to keep them. Don't come So I'm going to keep them. Don't come across way. But they're probably across way. But they're probably across way. But they're probably listening and they're probably and they listening and they're probably and they listening and they're probably and they probably guessed I'll be doing that. probably guessed I'll be doing that. probably guessed I'll be doing that. Well, let's um let's talk about another Well, let's um let's talk about another Well, let's um let's talk about another crossway author, John Piper. Often heard crossway author, John Piper. Often heard crossway author, John Piper. Often heard him say that he likes him say that he likes him say that he likes >> heard of him. He says he likes screens >> heard of him. He says he likes screens >> heard of him. He says he likes screens because they lift your eyes as you sing. because they lift your eyes as you sing. because they lift your eyes as you sing. And also when you're projecting your And also when you're projecting your And also when you're projecting your posture, you're projecting out and up on posture, you're projecting out and up on posture, you're projecting out and up on and at the same time some of us at least and at the same time some of us at least and at the same time some of us at least can associate and remember hymns and can associate and remember hymns and can associate and remember hymns and himnols with boring and wrote singing.

himnols with boring and wrote singing. himnols with boring and wrote singing. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's a little bit of probably what >> that's a little bit of probably what >> that's a little bit of probably what you're up against. Do you worry about you're up against. Do you worry about you're up against. Do you worry about either of those points with this? either of those points with this? either of those points with this? >> No. I mean, obviously John would be the >> No. I mean, obviously John would be the >> No. I mean, obviously John would be the be the highest profile, what you would be the highest profile, what you would be the highest profile, what you would call lowurch, you know, uh, low church call lowurch, you know, uh, low church call lowurch, you know, uh, low church worship kind of advocate amongst the worship kind of advocate amongst the worship kind of advocate amongst the gospel coalition. Most of the gospel gospel coalition. Most of the gospel gospel coalition. Most of the gospel coalition, certainly the founders would coalition, certainly the founders would coalition, certainly the founders would be will be slightly would have a be will be slightly would have a be will be slightly would have a slightly more lurggical perspective. So, slightly more lurggical perspective. So, slightly more lurggical perspective. So, it's worth just observing that. Um, I it's worth just observing that. Um, I it's worth just observing that. Um, I think John's right in that. I mean, I I think John's right in that. I mean, I I think John's right in that. I mean, I I conducted choirs from I was 13 till conducted choirs from I was 13 till conducted choirs from I was 13 till today. But it was it was a large was my today. But it was it was a large was my today. But it was it was a large was my first my first break into professional first my first break into professional first my first break into professional music was being a choir conductor and music was being a choir conductor and music was being a choir conductor and the the the one of the foremost things the the the one of the foremost things the the the one of the foremost things you have to do is to get people to hold you have to do is to get people to hold you have to do is to get people to hold their music up and project out. So John their music up and project out. So John their music up and project out. So John is exactly right. If you put it on the is exactly right. If you put it on the is exactly right. If you put it on the screens but I don't think I don't think screens but I don't think I don't think screens but I don't think I don't think having the music on the screens negates having the music on the screens negates having the music on the screens negates doing this. I mean the sync conference doing this. I mean the sync conference doing this. I mean the sync conference this year we're going to have most of this year we're going to have most of this year we're going to have most of the words on the screens as well. A few the words on the screens as well. A few the words on the screens as well. A few times we'll just go to the books but times we'll just go to the books but times we'll just go to the books but we'll expect people to hold the books we'll expect people to hold the books we'll expect people to hold the books but also to have the screens as well. So but also to have the screens as well. So but also to have the screens as well. So so it is it is much more than just tech. so it is it is much more than just tech. so it is it is much more than just tech. It is much more than just technology. It is much more than just technology. It is much more than just technology. >> Part of it's just training people's >> Part of it's just training people's >> Part of it's just training people's expectations there.

expectations there. expectations there. >> Um and and I I mean I've been through >> Um and and I I mean I've been through >> Um and and I I mean I've been through plenty of services at this point that plenty of services at this point that plenty of services at this point that are contemporary and they feel like are contemporary and they feel like are contemporary and they feel like we're just going through the motions. we're just going through the motions. we're just going through the motions. You mentioned the acrobatics up front. You mentioned the acrobatics up front. You mentioned the acrobatics up front. It can often feel very performative in It can often feel very performative in It can often feel very performative in the same way that it can feel boring the same way that it can feel boring the same way that it can feel boring with a hymn. And I think with the with a hymn. And I think with the with a hymn. And I think with the younger generations that you mentioned, younger generations that you mentioned, younger generations that you mentioned, they don't actually even remember they don't actually even remember they don't actually even remember anything about hymns. anything about hymns. anything about hymns. >> They don't remember anything about that >> They don't remember anything about that >> They don't remember anything about that experience in the church. So, it's going experience in the church. So, it's going experience in the church. So, it's going to be a novel experience for a lot of to be a novel experience for a lot of to be a novel experience for a lot of them. them. them. >> Uh let's talk about liturgy. You've >> Uh let's talk about liturgy. You've >> Uh let's talk about liturgy. You've mentioned that a few different times in mentioned that a few different times in mentioned that a few different times in here. That's been a controversial point here. That's been a controversial point here. That's been a controversial point of late and a sense that some have that of late and a sense that some have that of late and a sense that some have that they need to leave uh their church to go they need to leave uh their church to go they need to leave uh their church to go to a different denomination or maybe to a different denomination or maybe to a different denomination or maybe even to become Catholic or Orthodox to even to become Catholic or Orthodox to even to become Catholic or Orthodox to be able to experience this liturgy and be able to experience this liturgy and be able to experience this liturgy and connection to history. Um how do you see connection to history. Um how do you see connection to history. Um how do you see your this project the sing himnil your this project the sing himnil your this project the sing himnil speaking into that uh that controversy speaking into that uh that controversy speaking into that uh that controversy of late? I think your point is a great of late? I think your point is a great of late? I think your point is a great one, Colin. And I mean, for what it's one, Colin. And I mean, for what it's one, Colin. And I mean, for what it's worth, um, we're seeing deconstruction worth, um, we're seeing deconstruction worth, um, we're seeing deconstruction at two at two broad levels of the at two at two broad levels of the at two at two broad levels of the confessional church right now. One of confessional church right now. One of confessional church right now. One of them is the person who life goes wrong them is the person who life goes wrong them is the person who life goes wrong and they kind of dump it. They dump it and they kind of dump it. They dump it and they kind of dump it. They dump it as a bad job. But, you know, g given as a bad job. But, you know, g given as a bad job. But, you know, g given that that's always happened in history, that that's always happened in history, that that's always happened in history, and also given the speurious way of kind and also given the speurious way of kind and also given the speurious way of kind of easy faithism that has happened and of easy faithism that has happened and of easy faithism that has happened and continues to happen in our generation, continues to happen in our generation, continues to happen in our generation, you go a camp in the summer, you go off you go a camp in the summer, you go off you go a camp in the summer, you go off to a youth event cuz you you're chasing to a youth event cuz you you're chasing to a youth event cuz you you're chasing a girl or something and you hear this a girl or something and you hear this a girl or something and you hear this amazing music and you have this feeling amazing music and you have this feeling amazing music and you have this feeling in your stomach and you think you're a in your stomach and you think you're a in your stomach and you think you're a Christian. Of course, you and I both

Christian. Of course, you and I both Christian. Of course, you and I both know that's not I mean, getting that know that's not I mean, getting that know that's not I mean, getting that flushed out, you know, I I I'm not I'm flushed out, you know, I I I'm not I'm flushed out, you know, I I I'm not I'm not I mean, I' I've got young teenage not I mean, I' I've got young teenage not I mean, I' I've got young teenage daughters. I don't I don't I don't daughters. I don't I don't I don't daughters. I don't I don't I don't dismiss the fear of deconstruction, but dismiss the fear of deconstruction, but dismiss the fear of deconstruction, but but it's it's not it's not if you look but it's it's not it's not if you look but it's it's not it's not if you look at the all the proportions and look at at the all the proportions and look at at the all the proportions and look at the stats of it, it's it's it's it's the stats of it, it's it's it's it's the stats of it, it's it's it's it's highly it's highly predictable um for highly it's highly predictable um for highly it's highly predictable um for the most part. What concerns me a lot the most part. What concerns me a lot the most part. What concerns me a lot more is the number of thoughtful leaders more is the number of thoughtful leaders more is the number of thoughtful leaders and businessmen who are involved in the and businessmen who are involved in the and businessmen who are involved in the the heads of churches who are moving to the heads of churches who are moving to the heads of churches who are moving to Catholic churches, non-confessional Catholic churches, non-confessional Catholic churches, non-confessional lurggical churches, orthodox churches lurggical churches, orthodox churches lurggical churches, orthodox churches right now simply because they are so right now simply because they are so right now simply because they are so sick of the nonsense at the front of our sick of the nonsense at the front of our sick of the nonsense at the front of our churches and the utterly empty and churches and the utterly empty and churches and the utterly empty and manipulated feeling that people are manipulated feeling that people are manipulated feeling that people are leaving church services with. Um and leaving church services with. Um and leaving church services with. Um and suddenly when they go into an Orthodox suddenly when they go into an Orthodox suddenly when they go into an Orthodox church, number one, number one, it takes church, number one, number one, it takes church, number one, number one, it takes away individualism. Number two, there is away individualism. Number two, there is away individualism. Number two, there is a gospel shape to it that is just right. a gospel shape to it that is just right. a gospel shape to it that is just right. Of course, we don't necessarily agree Of course, we don't necessarily agree Of course, we don't necessarily agree with all the lurggical parts of all of with all the lurggical parts of all of with all the lurggical parts of all of those services, but there is still a those services, but there is still a those services, but there is still a largely gospel shape that because God largely gospel shape that because God largely gospel shape that because God has created us and we're faithfully has created us and we're faithfully has created us and we're faithfully fearfully and wonderfully made, it just fearfully and wonderfully made, it just fearfully and wonderfully made, it just makes sense. And so, it gives us a makes sense. And so, it gives us a makes sense. And so, it gives us a peace. There's a poetic beauty to it.

peace. There's a poetic beauty to it. peace. There's a poetic beauty to it. And then there's a sense that there's a And then there's a sense that there's a And then there's a sense that there's a sense that this is our worship leader, sense that this is our worship leader, sense that this is our worship leader, but we've had five worship leaders in but we've had five worship leaders in but we've had five worship leaders in the last 13 years. And you know, two of the last 13 years. And you know, two of the last 13 years. And you know, two of them had to be fired for immorality or them had to be fired for immorality or them had to be fired for immorality or whatever. And we're actually now we're whatever. And we're actually now we're whatever. And we're actually now we're going to a church that oh, they've been going to a church that oh, they've been going to a church that oh, they've been doing this since like 1648. You know doing this since like 1648. You know doing this since like 1648. You know what I mean? And suddenly everything what I mean? And suddenly everything what I mean? And suddenly everything seems a lot more sensible. And so, as I seems a lot more sensible. And so, as I seems a lot more sensible. And so, as I said, I think that that speaks to the said, I think that that speaks to the said, I think that that speaks to the wraparound issue that it is. Do you know wraparound issue that it is. Do you know wraparound issue that it is. Do you know what I mean? There's an older generation what I mean? There's an older generation what I mean? There's an older generation um but there's also an a a younger um but there's also an a a younger um but there's also an a a younger generation who no longer who no longer generation who no longer who no longer generation who no longer who no longer accept all the presumptions that a accept all the presumptions that a accept all the presumptions that a previous generation had for church and previous generation had for church and previous generation had for church and are going back to first principles of are going back to first principles of are going back to first principles of logic and for them the lurggical service logic and for them the lurggical service logic and for them the lurggical service which was why Luther was so determined which was why Luther was so determined which was why Luther was so determined to create a gospel-shaped liturgy and to create a gospel-shaped liturgy and to create a gospel-shaped liturgy and Cranmer was so determined to create a Cranmer was so determined to create a Cranmer was so determined to create a gospel-shaped liturgy because if we can gospel-shaped liturgy because if we can gospel-shaped liturgy because if we can get back to that suddenly we have a get back to that suddenly we have a get back to that suddenly we have a framework for thing and it is true to framework for thing and it is true to framework for thing and it is true to say a lot of these churches don't preach say a lot of these churches don't preach say a lot of these churches don't preach the gospel and that's sad but I would the gospel and that's sad but I would the gospel and that's sad but I would also say as a second note those churches also say as a second note those churches also say as a second note those churches have survived and the liturgy is the have survived and the liturgy is the have survived and the liturgy is the only the liturgy and the hymns are the only the liturgy and the hymns are the only the liturgy and the hymns are the only thing preaching the gospel in those only thing preaching the gospel in those only thing preaching the gospel in those churches churches that didn't have that churches churches that didn't have that churches churches that didn't have that don't even survive you know what I mean don't even survive you know what I mean don't even survive you know what I mean so I think that we got to be careful how so I think that we got to be careful how so I think that we got to be careful how we use our logic there because you know we use our logic there because you know we use our logic there because you know we can we can argue exactly the wrong we can we can argue exactly the wrong we can we can argue exactly the wrong thing or argue it actually upside down thing or argue it actually upside down thing or argue it actually upside down >> right you prove prove too big of a point >> right you prove prove too big of a point >> right you prove prove too big of a point as as well proved too much in the as as well proved too much in the as as well proved too much in the argument.

argument. argument. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> church members might be surprised to >> church members might be surprised to >> church members might be surprised to learn that musicians and preaching learn that musicians and preaching learn that musicians and preaching pastors do not always get along. pastors do not always get along. pastors do not always get along. Can this himnel help bridge Can this himnel help bridge Can this himnel help bridge >> that's going to be the quote that's >> that's going to be the quote that's >> that's going to be the quote that's going to be the quote of this whole going to be the quote of this whole going to be the quote of this whole podcast that is that is that is podcast that is that is that is podcast that is that is that is incredible. incredible. incredible. >> I've been trying to try to keep this >> I've been trying to try to keep this >> I've been trying to try to keep this calm. Colin, when did this start? calm. Colin, when did this start? calm. Colin, when did this start? This is shocking news to you, Keith. I This is shocking news to you, Keith. I This is shocking news to you, Keith. I know. know. know. >> It must be the It must be the current, >> It must be the It must be the current, >> It must be the It must be the current, you know, political political you know, political political you know, political political establishment. You know, it was blame establishment. You know, it was blame establishment. You know, it was blame them. I them. I them. I >> I mean, it it is I guess has it has it >> I mean, it it is I guess has it has it >> I mean, it it is I guess has it has it always been that way or did some of the always been that way or did some of the always been that way or did some of the different changes that we've made in our different changes that we've made in our different changes that we've made in our expectations of music set us up for that expectations of music set us up for that expectations of music set us up for that conflict? conflict? conflict? >> So, I think the answer that that >> So, I think the answer that that >> So, I think the answer that that question, as you as you and you and I question, as you as you and you and I question, as you as you and you and I would both know, the answer to that would both know, the answer to that would both know, the answer to that question is yes and no. Um question is yes and no. Um question is yes and no. Um >> um you know, musicians musicians by >> um you know, musicians musicians by >> um you know, musicians musicians by their by their makeup are are never the their by their makeup are are never the their by their makeup are are never the easiest people to get on with. And uh easiest people to get on with. And uh easiest people to get on with. And uh and uh and and then even just some of and uh and and then even just some of and uh and and then even just some of the some of the priorities and the some of the priorities and the some of the priorities and principles of historic evangelicalism principles of historic evangelicalism principles of historic evangelicalism candidly have not helped themselves in candidly have not helped themselves in candidly have not helped themselves in their relationship to those who are their relationship to those who are their relationship to those who are creative. And so there's there's endemic creative. And so there's there's endemic creative. And so there's there's endemic there's endemic issues that would that there's endemic issues that would that there's endemic issues that would that would that would make interesting would that would make interesting would that would make interesting podcasts or PhD studies out of that. I podcasts or PhD studies out of that. I podcasts or PhD studies out of that. I think the problem more recently is is is think the problem more recently is is is think the problem more recently is is is two or three-fold. One is there is a

two or three-fold. One is there is a two or three-fold. One is there is a terrible theology of what worship and terrible theology of what worship and terrible theology of what worship and singing now is in the church that is far singing now is in the church that is far singing now is in the church that is far closer linked far closer linked to to to closer linked far closer linked to to to closer linked far closer linked to to to sales and marketing and to and and to sales and marketing and to and and to sales and marketing and to and and to therapy than it is to holy worship. And therapy than it is to holy worship. And therapy than it is to holy worship. And so we need to get a clear theology of so we need to get a clear theology of so we need to get a clear theology of what we're doing. Secondly, there is a what we're doing. Secondly, there is a what we're doing. Secondly, there is a there is a there is mass confusion. there is a there is mass confusion. there is a there is mass confusion. There is mass confusion compared to 50 There is mass confusion compared to 50 There is mass confusion compared to 50 years ago on what kind of songs we sing. years ago on what kind of songs we sing. years ago on what kind of songs we sing. If you were Presbyterian living in If you were Presbyterian living in If you were Presbyterian living in Alabama, you kind of knew how you sang. Alabama, you kind of knew how you sang. Alabama, you kind of knew how you sang. You all sang the same way. And and uh You all sang the same way. And and uh You all sang the same way. And and uh whereas now is everything. So there is a whereas now is everything. So there is a whereas now is everything. So there is a there is a cultural there's a cultural there is a cultural there's a cultural there is a cultural there's a cultural change that hasn't quite landed yet. any change that hasn't quite landed yet. any change that hasn't quite landed yet. any cultural change whether it's a new cultural change whether it's a new cultural change whether it's a new pastor or a new house or a new dog in pastor or a new house or a new dog in pastor or a new house or a new dog in your house require cultural changes and your house require cultural changes and your house require cultural changes and shifts and and those haven't quite shifts and and those haven't quite shifts and and those haven't quite landed I don't think but I think there landed I don't think but I think there landed I don't think but I think there are some basic ones as well in that are some basic ones as well in that are some basic ones as well in that because the modern worship leader is because the modern worship leader is because the modern worship leader is given such a patheticly high platform given such a patheticly high platform given such a patheticly high platform um they forget that you know they you um they forget that you know they you um they forget that you know they you know they're there to serve a church and know they're there to serve a church and know they're there to serve a church and they have a boss do you know what I mean they have a boss do you know what I mean they have a boss do you know what I mean so you know for example when we do you so you know for example when we do you so you know for example when we do you know when we do Carnegie Hall or Robert know when we do Carnegie Hall or Robert know when we do Carnegie Hall or Robert Hall or wherever these shows are playing Hall or wherever these shows are playing Hall or wherever these shows are playing Grand Lopper doing two show to Grand Grand Lopper doing two show to Grand Grand Lopper doing two show to Grand Lopper next week. You know, we have we Lopper next week. You know, we have we Lopper next week. You know, we have we have lawyers who do our contracts and have lawyers who do our contracts and have lawyers who do our contracts and and make sure that we can control our and make sure that we can control our and make sure that we can control our show and our message and that they can't show and our message and that they can't show and our message and that they can't superimpose a message on us. When I'm superimpose a message on us. When I'm superimpose a message on us. When I'm leading in church, if the pastor says to leading in church, if the pastor says to leading in church, if the pastor says to me 5 minutes beforehand, I'm changing me 5 minutes beforehand, I'm changing me 5 minutes beforehand, I'm changing the song or we're having to cut time the song or we're having to cut time the song or we're having to cut time because there's a there's a backup in because there's a there's a backup in because there's a there's a backup in the car park, then then I say, what do

the car park, then then I say, what do the car park, then then I say, what do you cut? And he cuts my he is my boss. I you cut? And he cuts my he is my boss. I you cut? And he cuts my he is my boss. I honor I honor my pastor. Um, and uh I honor I honor my pastor. Um, and uh I honor I honor my pastor. Um, and uh I they're my leadership and there's a very they're my leadership and there's a very they're my leadership and there's a very clear clear clear structure that that that should be no structure that that that should be no structure that that that should be no less clear than military structure in my less clear than military structure in my less clear than military structure in my opinion. So any any church out there, opinion. So any any church out there, opinion. So any any church out there, any pastor out there who's scared to any pastor out there who's scared to any pastor out there who's scared to tell his worship leader something or who tell his worship leader something or who tell his worship leader something or who the worship leader is able to do stuff the worship leader is able to do stuff the worship leader is able to do stuff and the pastor doesn't know how to tell and the pastor doesn't know how to tell and the pastor doesn't know how to tell them. I I think I think I can already them. I I think I think I can already them. I I think I think I can already predict that I'm pretty much 90% sure predict that I'm pretty much 90% sure predict that I'm pretty much 90% sure you're heading for absolute chaos you're heading for absolute chaos you're heading for absolute chaos somewhere in the next six months to six somewhere in the next six months to six somewhere in the next six months to six years. And uh so I think that's an maybe years. And uh so I think that's an maybe years. And uh so I think that's an maybe you disagree, Colin. I don't know. you disagree, Colin. I don't know. you disagree, Colin. I don't know. >> No, I when I was training for ministry, >> No, I when I was training for ministry, >> No, I when I was training for ministry, you start to see that we often run into you start to see that we often run into you start to see that we often run into the same problem for the same reasons. the same problem for the same reasons. the same problem for the same reasons. It would be the preacher who's really It would be the preacher who's really It would be the preacher who's really great at preaching. And people think, great at preaching. And people think, great at preaching. And people think, well, you don't need to care about his well, you don't need to care about his well, you don't need to care about his character because in the qualifications character because in the qualifications character because in the qualifications of eldership because look at how great a of eldership because look at how great a of eldership because look at how great a preacher is. It extends to youth preacher is. It extends to youth preacher is. It extends to youth ministry.

ministry. ministry. >> We don't really evaluate and expect a >> We don't really evaluate and expect a >> We don't really evaluate and expect a lot out of out of his character because lot out of out of his character because lot out of out of his character because he's great with kids and he loves he's great with kids and he loves he's great with kids and he loves hanging out with them. hanging out with them. hanging out with them. >> Charismatic personality. >> Charismatic personality. >> Charismatic personality. >> Charismatic. And then in music, we don't >> Charismatic. And then in music, we don't >> Charismatic. And then in music, we don't seem to really value the character parts seem to really value the character parts seem to really value the character parts or the qualification parts. And we'll or the qualification parts. And we'll or the qualification parts. And we'll just throw somebody up there because just throw somebody up there because just throw somebody up there because they their voice sounds great and they their voice sounds great and they their voice sounds great and they're good with the music and not they're good with the music and not they're good with the music and not really understanding that people can be really understanding that people can be really understanding that people can be attracted to those things for really bad attracted to those things for really bad attracted to those things for really bad reasons. reasons. reasons. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Which is why the character requirements >> Which is why the character requirements >> Which is why the character requirements are so significant there. And then we are so significant there. And then we are so significant there. And then we wake up and we wonder why we have wake up and we wonder why we have wake up and we wonder why we have problems. problems. problems. >> Yeah. I don't think that should be that >> Yeah. I don't think that should be that >> Yeah. I don't think that should be that much of a mystery. much of a mystery. much of a mystery. >> Yeah. No. 100 100% degree. >> Yeah. No. 100 100% degree. >> Yeah. No. 100 100% degree. >> No. Um, now you've mentioned a couple of >> No. Um, now you've mentioned a couple of >> No. Um, now you've mentioned a couple of these couple of these uses, Keith. I these couple of these uses, Keith. I these couple of these uses, Keith. I love the way you talked about by the love the way you talked about by the love the way you talked about by the piano and by the bedside. piano and by the bedside. piano and by the bedside. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And for all of life, I'm I'm going to >> And for all of life, I'm I'm going to >> And for all of life, I'm I'm going to use that. I'm going to do that and I'm use that. I'm going to do that and I'm use that. I'm going to do that and I'm going to use that. I love that. It's the going to use that. I love that. It's the going to use that. I love that. It's the way the way the interview started there way the way the interview started there way the way the interview started there with my own my own grandfather. And then with my own my own grandfather. And then with my own my own grandfather. And then we've got the piano there in the living we've got the piano there in the living we've got the piano there in the living room with the himynil sitting on it on room with the himynil sitting on it on room with the himynil sitting on it on it right now. Um are there other ways it right now. Um are there other ways it right now. Um are there other ways you expect or hope that this himnil will you expect or hope that this himnil will you expect or hope that this himnil will be used? You mentioned some of the be used? You mentioned some of the be used? You mentioned some of the prayers and liturgies. People may be prayers and liturgies. People may be prayers and liturgies. People may be surprised to know there's 400 surprised to know there's 400 surprised to know there's 400 >> 400 prayers and liturgies.

>> 400 prayers and liturgies. >> 400 prayers and liturgies. >> Yeah, I think I think I hope we hope it >> Yeah, I think I think I hope we hope it >> Yeah, I think I think I hope we hope it can be I know when we talked about we can be I know when we talked about we can be I know when we talked about we hope we hope it can be a one-stop shop hope we hope it can be a one-stop shop hope we hope it can be a one-stop shop for all Christian leaders. So if you for all Christian leaders. So if you for all Christian leaders. So if you decide this is not what our church want, decide this is not what our church want, decide this is not what our church want, I still hope that each of the leaders in I still hope that each of the leaders in I still hope that each of the leaders in the church will buy it because if you the church will buy it because if you the church will buy it because if you get it and you're going to do a call to get it and you're going to do a call to get it and you're going to do a call to worship tomorrow or you have to go and worship tomorrow or you have to go and worship tomorrow or you have to go and do a thing for the the youth ministry or do a thing for the the youth ministry or do a thing for the the youth ministry or you have to go to an event where there's you have to go to an event where there's you have to go to an event where there's a bereavement or you have to go and and a bereavement or you have to go and and a bereavement or you have to go and and speak at a a a local school, a local speak at a a a local school, a local speak at a a a local school, a local school or social event in the Christmas school or social event in the Christmas school or social event in the Christmas season or or you have to um you know season or or you have to um you know season or or you have to um you know there there are prayers and readings all there there are prayers and readings all there there are prayers and readings all the way through this. So we hope people the way through this. So we hope people the way through this. So we hope people alongside their study Bible and their alongside their study Bible and their alongside their study Bible and their shorter catechism or whatever or new shorter catechism or whatever or new shorter catechism or whatever or new city catechism that they have and we city catechism that they have and we city catechism that they have and we hope it can become a reference book for hope it can become a reference book for hope it can become a reference book for all leaders and for all parents and so all leaders and for all parents and so all leaders and for all parents and so that's that's that's one of the things that's that's that's one of the things that's that's that's one of the things um I think I think which is a huge part um I think I think which is a huge part um I think I think which is a huge part of it and uh and uh as well as obviously of it and uh and uh as well as obviously of it and uh and uh as well as obviously you know musicians been able to use it you know musicians been able to use it you know musicians been able to use it wherever they are as well I think is a wherever they are as well I think is a wherever they are as well I think is a good thing too.

good thing too. good thing too. Yeah, I'm already um I got my copy from Yeah, I'm already um I got my copy from Yeah, I'm already um I got my copy from from you guys and from from Crossway, from you guys and from from Crossway, from you guys and from from Crossway, but I'm always I'm already thinking I'm but I'm always I'm already thinking I'm but I'm always I'm already thinking I'm going to need multiple copies for going to need multiple copies for going to need multiple copies for different parts of the room, different different parts of the room, different different parts of the room, different parts of the house, and I'm going to I'm parts of the house, and I'm going to I'm parts of the house, and I'm going to I'm going to wear these wear these things going to wear these wear these things going to wear these wear these things out. Um again, like I said, I've been out. Um again, like I said, I've been out. Um again, like I said, I've been looking forward to this for a long time. looking forward to this for a long time. looking forward to this for a long time. Uh Keith, just a couple more questions Uh Keith, just a couple more questions Uh Keith, just a couple more questions here. What do you what do you hope the here. What do you what do you hope the here. What do you what do you hope the legacy of the single will be 20 years legacy of the single will be 20 years legacy of the single will be 20 years from now? What would long-term success from now? What would long-term success from now? What would long-term success look like? I mean certainly all of us as look like? I mean certainly all of us as look like? I mean certainly all of us as authors and publishers we want sales but authors and publishers we want sales but authors and publishers we want sales but you don't go into it just to sell books. you don't go into it just to sell books. you don't go into it just to sell books. You want it to change something. You You want it to change something. You You want it to change something. You want something to be different. 20 years want something to be different. 20 years want something to be different. 20 years what do you hope's changed? what do you hope's changed? what do you hope's changed? >> Well I I have to admit I I have actually >> Well I I have to admit I I have actually >> Well I I have to admit I I have actually no idea what the relative metrics are of no idea what the relative metrics are of no idea what the relative metrics are of this. So I'll be I'll be the entirely this. So I'll be I'll be the entirely this. So I'll be I'll be the entirely the wrong person to ask it and and I the wrong person to ask it and and I the wrong person to ask it and and I appreciate the fact that crossway do appreciate the fact that crossway do appreciate the fact that crossway do care about that and and and I and and care about that and and and I and and care about that and and and I and and that's and that's only right that they that's and that's only right that they that's and that's only right that they do. But um you know I think I think you do. But um you know I think I think you do. But um you know I think I think you know there's again it's it's it's know there's again it's it's it's know there's again it's it's it's multiple levels you know uh at the at multiple levels you know uh at the at multiple levels you know uh at the at the practical level we said earlier the the practical level we said earlier the the practical level we said earlier the two big issues that we feel are are two big issues that we feel are are two big issues that we feel are are becoming a huge concern is the curation becoming a huge concern is the curation becoming a huge concern is the curation of what churches and families sing and of what churches and families sing and of what churches and families sing and the lack of hymns that you will carry the lack of hymns that you will carry the lack of hymns that you will carry with you through life. Um uh and that is with you through life. Um uh and that is with you through life. Um uh and that is because of the theology, that is because because of the theology, that is because because of the theology, that is because of the melody, that is because of the of the melody, that is because of the of the melody, that is because of the artistry and poetry which makes every artistry and poetry which makes every artistry and poetry which makes every part of us more intelligent, more sharp, part of us more intelligent, more sharp, part of us more intelligent, more sharp, more thoughtful. Um and so so that is more thoughtful. Um and so so that is more thoughtful. Um and so so that is the two things that I think are are if

the two things that I think are are if the two things that I think are are if if in five to if you ask me if in five if in five to if you ask me if in five if in five to if you ask me if in five to 25 years time if if evangelical to 25 years time if if evangelical to 25 years time if if evangelical churches across America and English churches across America and English churches across America and English speaking Britain and English speaking speaking Britain and English speaking speaking Britain and English speaking world have returned to singing more world have returned to singing more world have returned to singing more great hymns or more of those churches great hymns or more of those churches great hymns or more of those churches are going we use this himnil or we use a are going we use this himnil or we use a are going we use this himnil or we use a different himnil we set up our own different himnil we set up our own different himnil we set up our own himnil for our community or these are himnil for our community or these are himnil for our community or these are the 50 hymns like our church have a the 50 hymns like our church have a the 50 hymns like our church have a thing that there's 50 hymns they want thing that there's 50 hymns they want thing that there's 50 hymns they want every kid to know by heart before they every kid to know by heart before they every kid to know by heart before they leave for college. leave for college. leave for college. >> You know what I mean? >> You know what I mean? >> You know what I mean? >> And so, you know, that if that if those >> And so, you know, that if that if those >> And so, you know, that if that if those two things have happened, I think I two things have happened, I think I two things have happened, I think I think that is a positive result that think that is a positive result that think that is a positive result that that that creates healthier and holier that that creates healthier and holier that that creates healthier and holier Christians, Christian families, Christians, Christian families, Christians, Christian families, Christian communities. But at a second Christian communities. But at a second Christian communities. But at a second level, you know, at the artist level and level, you know, at the artist level and level, you know, at the artist level and even even filtering then even more so even even filtering then even more so even even filtering then even more so into the spiritual level at the third into the spiritual level at the third into the spiritual level at the third level, you know, for us to spend time level, you know, for us to spend time level, you know, for us to spend time gazing on the beauty of the Lord, you gazing on the beauty of the Lord, you gazing on the beauty of the Lord, you know, at his wonders and being able to know, at his wonders and being able to know, at his wonders and being able to sing being able to sing those things sing being able to sing those things sing being able to sing those things then into into the spiritual realm. You then into into the spiritual realm. You then into into the spiritual realm. You know, the the most of the testimonies know, the the most of the testimonies know, the the most of the testimonies will be individual stories. is I have a will be individual stories. is I have a will be individual stories. is I have a friend who was an Isl Islamic who was friend who was an Isl Islamic who was friend who was an Isl Islamic who was Islamic who became a Christian in a Islamic who became a Christian in a Islamic who became a Christian in a service of beautiful Christian worship service of beautiful Christian worship service of beautiful Christian worship just singing hymns in four part harmony just singing hymns in four part harmony just singing hymns in four part harmony you know the number of times we we come you know the number of times we we come you know the number of times we we come you know as what's what's rock of ages you know as what's what's rock of ages you know as what's what's rock of ages say um helpless we look helpless we come say um helpless we look helpless we come say um helpless we look helpless we come for grace naked we come for dress you for grace naked we come for dress you for grace naked we come for dress you know when we turn up on Sunday you know know when we turn up on Sunday you know know when we turn up on Sunday you know Alistister be always described the

Alistister be always described the Alistister be always described the congregation as being in quiet congregation as being in quiet congregation as being in quiet desperation and I I don't want that desperation and I I don't want that desperation and I I don't want that quiet desperation to be answered by some quiet desperation to be answered by some quiet desperation to be answered by some stupid rant of song at the front where stupid rant of song at the front where stupid rant of song at the front where you're repeating something eight times you're repeating something eight times you're repeating something eight times and and some and somebody at the front's and and some and somebody at the front's and and some and somebody at the front's trying to distract you and make you look trying to distract you and make you look trying to distract you and make you look at them. Um what what I want them to do at them. Um what what I want them to do at them. Um what what I want them to do is to sing the beauty of the Lord Jesus is to sing the beauty of the Lord Jesus is to sing the beauty of the Lord Jesus in a way that they know and know in a in a way that they know and know in a in a way that they know and know in a fresh way. So that you know if you take fresh way. So that you know if you take fresh way. So that you know if you take something like Hark the Herald Angels something like Hark the Herald Angels something like Hark the Herald Angels sing simply because that's still enough sing simply because that's still enough sing simply because that's still enough in the in the cultural in the in the cultural in the in the cultural >> uh millu to be relatable to everybody >> uh millu to be relatable to everybody >> uh millu to be relatable to everybody most people who sing that every most people who sing that every most people who sing that every Christmas will chew on a different line Christmas will chew on a different line Christmas will chew on a different line each time they'll come about it again each time they'll come about it again each time they'll come about it again they'll see a they'll see a new way and they'll see a they'll see a new way and they'll see a they'll see a new way and that's what great art does great art that's what great art does great art that's what great art does great art helps us see things in fresh ways it helps us see things in fresh ways it helps us see things in fresh ways it helps us see things in bigger ways it helps us see things in bigger ways it helps us see things in bigger ways it help it enlarges our vision and it also help it enlarges our vision and it also help it enlarges our vision and it also makes us see things for all the beauty makes us see things for all the beauty makes us see things for all the beauty that they are. And so, you know, the at that they are. And so, you know, the at that they are. And so, you know, the at the end of the day, most of the ministry the end of the day, most of the ministry the end of the day, most of the ministry of this is what's happening as as this of this is what's happening as as this of this is what's happening as as this family gather around the piano as 60 family gather around the piano as 60 family gather around the piano as 60 people gather at a church on Sunday. And people gather at a church on Sunday. And people gather at a church on Sunday. And most of it is just a daily and lifetime most of it is just a daily and lifetime most of it is just a daily and lifetime service at that Dodge.

service at that Dodge. service at that Dodge. >> Oh, I love that. Keith, congratulations >> Oh, I love that. Keith, congratulations >> Oh, I love that. Keith, congratulations on the publication of this. I'm just, as on the publication of this. I'm just, as on the publication of this. I'm just, as everybody can see through this everybody can see through this everybody can see through this interview, I'm just thrilled. A single, interview, I'm just thrilled. A single, interview, I'm just thrilled. A single, it's brand new. It's published with it's brand new. It's published with it's brand new. It's published with Crossway. Crossway. Crossway. Get a copy. It's going to be it's going Get a copy. It's going to be it's going Get a copy. It's going to be it's going to be great. Bed from your bedside to to be great. Bed from your bedside to to be great. Bed from your bedside to your piano, family devotions your piano, family devotions your piano, family devotions uh at your church. It's a great uh at your church. It's a great uh at your church. It's a great blessing. Thank you, Keith. Colin, thank blessing. Thank you, Keith. Colin, thank blessing. Thank you, Keith. Colin, thank you and thank you for your encouragement you and thank you for your encouragement you and thank you for your encouragement as we gone through it. This has been as we gone through it. This has been as we gone through it. This has been great to hear from you occasionally and great to hear from you occasionally and great to hear from you occasionally and uh to hear your enthusiasm for it uh to hear your enthusiasm for it uh to hear your enthusiasm for it actually means a huge amount. So, thanks actually means a huge amount. So, thanks actually means a huge amount. So, thanks for all you guys are doing and keep for all you guys are doing and keep for all you guys are doing and keep going. going. going. >> Thanks, Keith. >> Thanks, Keith. >> Thanks, Keith. [Music] [Music] [Music] Thank you for listening to this episode Thank you for listening to this episode Thank you for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and of Gospelbound. For more interviews and of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my new weekly newsletter, to sign up for my new weekly newsletter, to sign up for my new weekly newsletter, Unseen Things, head over to Unseen Things, head over to Unseen Things, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. tgc.org/gosspelbound. tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform, so others can favorite podcast platform, so others can favorite podcast platform, so others can join us in this conversation. Until next join us in this conversation. Until next join us in this conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the time, remember, when we're bound to the time, remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.