Top Theology Stories of 2025 (with Melissa Kruger) [Gospelbound - Ep. 173]

I saw I think it was a New Yorker column I saw I think it was a New Yorker column that said, "I'm so glad to be done that said, "I'm so glad to be done that said, "I'm so glad to be done working with screens all day so that I working with screens all day so that I working with screens all day so that I can rest by sitting in front of screens can rest by sitting in front of screens can rest by sitting in front of screens all night." We are getting better and all night." We are getting better and all night." We are getting better and better and better at finding new ways to better and better at finding new ways to better and better at finding new ways to not need each other. not need each other. not need each other. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> We always have to consider when using >> We always have to consider when using >> We always have to consider when using that technology, what is it? We know that technology, what is it? We know that technology, what is it? We know what it's adding. What is it taking what it's adding. What is it taking what it's adding. What is it taking away? at the same time. Welcome to a special edition of Gospel Welcome to a special edition of Gospel Bound. I'm Colin Hansen, your host, and Bound. I'm Colin Hansen, your host, and Bound. I'm Colin Hansen, your host, and I'm joined by my good friend and I'm joined by my good friend and I'm joined by my good friend and colleague Melissa Krueger. Uh surely you colleague Melissa Krueger. Uh surely you colleague Melissa Krueger. Uh surely you know her from the Deep Dish podcast from know her from the Deep Dish podcast from know her from the Deep Dish podcast from TGC's national events, our women's TGC's national events, our women's TGC's national events, our women's conference, our national conference conference, our national conference conference, our national conference which she runs um and leads a team to be which she runs um and leads a team to be which she runs um and leads a team to be able to pull off. Now you are listening able to pull off. Now you are listening able to pull off. Now you are listening to something we always look forward to to something we always look forward to to something we always look forward to every year. Um our bonus season end year every year. Um our bonus season end year every year. Um our bonus season end year end episode. Something we began doing in end episode. Something we began doing in end episode. Something we began doing in 2020 which is always auspicious.

2020 which is always auspicious. 2020 which is always auspicious. Anything that happened in 2020, you just Anything that happened in 2020, you just Anything that happened in 2020, you just want to keep repeating it over and over want to keep repeating it over and over want to keep repeating it over and over again. Well, there was a lot going on again. Well, there was a lot going on again. Well, there was a lot going on 2020. We had to 2020. We had to 2020. We had to >> There's actually a lot not going on in >> There's actually a lot not going on in >> There's actually a lot not going on in 2020, which is why we started, right? 2020, which is why we started, right? 2020, which is why we started, right? >> That was the irony of 2020. There was >> That was the irony of 2020. There was >> That was the irony of 2020. There was too much and not enough all at the same too much and not enough all at the same too much and not enough all at the same time. Uh well, what we do in this time. Uh well, what we do in this time. Uh well, what we do in this episode, we take you behind the scenes. episode, we take you behind the scenes. episode, we take you behind the scenes. We look at the big stories and trends of We look at the big stories and trends of We look at the big stories and trends of this last year, 2025. And thank you for this last year, 2025. And thank you for this last year, 2025. And thank you for listening, watching, and all the listening, watching, and all the listening, watching, and all the different ways that you encourage us in different ways that you encourage us in different ways that you encourage us in this work. this work. this work. >> Well, um, thanks for having me, Colin. >> Well, um, thanks for having me, Colin. >> Well, um, thanks for having me, Colin. This is always one of my favorite This is always one of my favorite This is always one of my favorite episodes because honestly it's like we episodes because honestly it's like we episodes because honestly it's like we get to record a little bit of our real get to record a little bit of our real get to record a little bit of our real life conversations which is always me life conversations which is always me life conversations which is always me asking you what is going on um in in the asking you what is going on um in in the asking you what is going on um in in the evangelical world a lot of the time and evangelical world a lot of the time and evangelical world a lot of the time and I thought um this year I was really I thought um this year I was really I thought um this year I was really intrigued by how you started your top 10 intrigued by how you started your top 10 intrigued by how you started your top 10 list. You said um this was a year of list. You said um this was a year of list. You said um this was a year of commas not periods. What did you mean by commas not periods. What did you mean by commas not periods. What did you mean by that? Well, doing this going back all that? Well, doing this going back all that? Well, doing this going back all the way to 2007, you start to see some the way to 2007, you start to see some the way to 2007, you start to see some bigger trends emerge and you also are bigger trends emerge and you also are bigger trends emerge and you also are able to size up different years.

able to size up different years. able to size up different years. Mentioned 2020 that was one of the most Mentioned 2020 that was one of the most Mentioned 2020 that was one of the most consequential news years of of modern consequential news years of of modern consequential news years of of modern memory. Uh last year had a lot of really memory. Uh last year had a lot of really memory. Uh last year had a lot of really major news. It's presidential election major news. It's presidential election major news. It's presidential election year in part. Um this year there were year in part. Um this year there were year in part. Um this year there were there always going to be top 10 stories. there always going to be top 10 stories. there always going to be top 10 stories. There's always going to be news. But it There's always going to be news. But it There's always going to be news. But it was not quite as newsworthy as as other was not quite as newsworthy as as other was not quite as newsworthy as as other years. But what's interesting at the years. But what's interesting at the years. But what's interesting at the same time, Melissa, is that the top same time, Melissa, is that the top same time, Melissa, is that the top stories, some of them might be more stories, some of them might be more stories, some of them might be more consequential than things that have consequential than things that have consequential than things that have happened in other years. But that's the happened in other years. But that's the happened in other years. But that's the point. It's a comma. It's and now what's point. It's a comma. It's and now what's point. It's a comma. It's and now what's going to happen next? Um, so many things going to happen next? Um, so many things going to happen next? Um, so many things I kept looking at thinking, well, this I kept looking at thinking, well, this I kept looking at thinking, well, this isn't decided at all. This is an event isn't decided at all. This is an event isn't decided at all. This is an event that happened, a debate that was that happened, a debate that was that happened, a debate that was convened. this is a you know this is convened. this is a you know this is convened. this is a you know this is positive or this is encouraging or this positive or this is encouraging or this positive or this is encouraging or this is a major transition but we just are is a major transition but we just are is a major transition but we just are too early to be able to understand what too early to be able to understand what too early to be able to understand what the implications of that are. So that's the implications of that are. So that's the implications of that are. So that's what I meant by it being uh the year of what I meant by it being uh the year of what I meant by it being uh the year of the or the comma and uh and not not the the or the comma and uh and not not the the or the comma and uh and not not the period.

period. period. >> One thing I always enjoy is that you are >> One thing I always enjoy is that you are >> One thing I always enjoy is that you are really good about looking at the really good about looking at the really good about looking at the worldwide church. It's not just worldwide church. It's not just worldwide church. It's not just theological stories that are happening theological stories that are happening theological stories that are happening in our own backyard. Um, and one thing in our own backyard. Um, and one thing in our own backyard. Um, and one thing that you one one story you highlighted that you one one story you highlighted that you one one story you highlighted was the largest crackdown on urban was the largest crackdown on urban was the largest crackdown on urban church houses in China in 40 years. Um, church houses in China in 40 years. Um, church houses in China in 40 years. Um, and honestly I was unaware of this so I and honestly I was unaware of this so I and honestly I was unaware of this so I was reading your your story. Um, what was reading your your story. Um, what was reading your your story. Um, what has been happening and why do you think has been happening and why do you think has been happening and why do you think this type of persecution is increasing this type of persecution is increasing this type of persecution is increasing in China right now? Like what's going on in China right now? Like what's going on in China right now? Like what's going on to to um kind of fuel this persecution? to to um kind of fuel this persecution? to to um kind of fuel this persecution? >> This story might instead of being a >> This story might instead of being a >> This story might instead of being a comma, it might be an ellipses. It's comma, it might be an ellipses. It's comma, it might be an ellipses. It's really a continuation of what's been really a continuation of what's been really a continuation of what's been going on going all the way back to 2017, going on going all the way back to 2017, going on going all the way back to 2017, 2018. U back in those days, we heard a 2018. U back in those days, we heard a 2018. U back in those days, we heard a lot about the growth of the church in lot about the growth of the church in lot about the growth of the church in China, fastest growing or one of the China, fastest growing or one of the China, fastest growing or one of the fastest growing churches in the world. fastest growing churches in the world. fastest growing churches in the world. We heard about these really massive mega We heard about these really massive mega We heard about these really massive mega churches, including church building churches, including church building churches, including church building constructions. Well, a lot of the the constructions. Well, a lot of the the constructions. Well, a lot of the the persecution coming and you you also used persecution coming and you you also used persecution coming and you you also used to hear a lot, Melissa, about how well to hear a lot, Melissa, about how well to hear a lot, Melissa, about how well politics and policies and persecution in politics and policies and persecution in politics and policies and persecution in China are very local. That's what you China are very local. That's what you China are very local. That's what you used to hear all the time. Um, to a used to hear all the time. Um, to a used to hear all the time. Um, to a certain extent, of course, that's still certain extent, of course, that's still certain extent, of course, that's still true, but to a lesser extent, and you've true, but to a lesser extent, and you've true, but to a lesser extent, and you've had a couple things happen. First, it had a couple things happen. First, it had a couple things happen. First, it predated COVID. It predated 2019 and predated COVID. It predated 2019 and predated COVID. It predated 2019 and 2020. There was already a major national 2020. There was already a major national 2020. There was already a major national level crackdown on church buildings and

level crackdown on church buildings and level crackdown on church buildings and then also on some of the leading house then also on some of the leading house then also on some of the leading house church networks. Saw that with Early church networks. Saw that with Early church networks. Saw that with Early Reign Covenant Church, Wong Yi a number Reign Covenant Church, Wong Yi a number Reign Covenant Church, Wong Yi a number of years ago. Uh but Zion Church, it of years ago. Uh but Zion Church, it of years ago. Uh but Zion Church, it really stands out, Melissa, because of really stands out, Melissa, because of really stands out, Melissa, because of the audaciousness the audaciousness the audaciousness and the the planning of this because and the the planning of this because and the the planning of this because this is a crackdown that was that was this is a crackdown that was that was this is a crackdown that was that was executed at a number of different major executed at a number of different major executed at a number of different major cities around the world. So that's part cities around the world. So that's part cities around the world. So that's part of around China. That's one of the of around China. That's one of the of around China. That's one of the challenges or one of the changes that challenges or one of the changes that challenges or one of the changes that happened with the with the shutdown via happened with the with the shutdown via happened with the with the shutdown via CO. You have more churches that are CO. You have more churches that are CO. You have more churches that are going local. They're networking. They're going local. They're networking. They're going local. They're networking. They're meeting of course online just like meeting of course online just like meeting of course online just like anybody else is. They're having to work anybody else is. They're having to work anybody else is. They're having to work around some different uh restrictions around some different uh restrictions around some different uh restrictions there. Um so you you see a church that there. Um so you you see a church that there. Um so you you see a church that the Holy Spirit is not squaltched. The the Holy Spirit is not squaltched. The the Holy Spirit is not squaltched. The Holy Spirit is not daunted by what Holy Spirit is not daunted by what Holy Spirit is not daunted by what happens with the premier in the Chinese happens with the premier in the Chinese happens with the premier in the Chinese Communist Party. And so the church is is Communist Party. And so the church is is Communist Party. And so the church is is having to pivot. They're having to having to pivot. They're having to having to pivot. They're having to adjust. But what we're seeing is after a adjust. But what we're seeing is after a adjust. But what we're seeing is after a pretty extended period of of very pretty extended period of of very pretty extended period of of very encouraging openness, this is a encouraging openness, this is a encouraging openness, this is a continuation of of the lack thereof. And continuation of of the lack thereof. And continuation of of the lack thereof. And we can clearly see, Melissa, this is a we can clearly see, Melissa, this is a we can clearly see, Melissa, this is a part of a broader trend between um a part of a broader trend between um a part of a broader trend between um a more confrontational China with the West more confrontational China with the West more confrontational China with the West or different entities including or different entities including or different entities including Christianity that they regard to be Christianity that they regard to be Christianity that they regard to be connected to the West. Yeah. And I I was connected to the West. Yeah. And I I was connected to the West. Yeah. And I I was so glad you started with this because so glad you started with this because so glad you started with this because it's such a good reminder. I mean, even it's such a good reminder. I mean, even it's such a good reminder. I mean, even right now if you're listening to take a right now if you're listening to take a right now if you're listening to take a moment to pray for our brothers and moment to pray for our brothers and moment to pray for our brothers and sisters across the world who are facing sisters across the world who are facing sisters across the world who are facing persecution. I think we take that for

persecution. I think we take that for persecution. I think we take that for granted um a lot of times. But just to granted um a lot of times. But just to granted um a lot of times. But just to meet in church is an act of defiance in meet in church is an act of defiance in meet in church is an act of defiance in in a lot of ways for them. And so um in a lot of ways for them. And so um in a lot of ways for them. And so um it's a good reminder as we start off to it's a good reminder as we start off to it's a good reminder as we start off to um just remember our brothers and um just remember our brothers and um just remember our brothers and sisters around the world. sisters around the world. sisters around the world. >> And a political act. It's always a >> And a political act. It's always a >> And a political act. It's always a political act as well. political act as well. political act as well. >> Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um the >> Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um the >> Yeah, that's true. That's true. Um the another thing that you mentioned was the another thing that you mentioned was the another thing that you mentioned was the death of two highly influential pastors, death of two highly influential pastors, death of two highly influential pastors, John MacArthur and Vodie Bacham. Um as John MacArthur and Vodie Bacham. Um as John MacArthur and Vodie Bacham. Um as well as Bible teacher K. Arthur um and well as Bible teacher K. Arthur um and well as Bible teacher K. Arthur um and focus on the family founder James focus on the family founder James focus on the family founder James Dobson. So these were kind of huge uh Dobson. So these were kind of huge uh Dobson. So these were kind of huge uh influencers before the word influencer influencers before the word influencer influencers before the word influencer was a word um on Christian culture, was a word um on Christian culture, was a word um on Christian culture, evangelical culture. um what evangelical culture. um what evangelical culture. um what commonalities do you see in their commonalities do you see in their commonalities do you see in their legacies and what do you foresee as legacies and what do you foresee as legacies and what do you foresee as their continuing um influence on the their continuing um influence on the their continuing um influence on the church today? I mean the these men and church today? I mean the these men and church today? I mean the these men and women wrote numerous books. Um I mean women wrote numerous books. Um I mean women wrote numerous books. Um I mean their their works have been all around their their works have been all around their their works have been all around the world. I mean they they've had the world. I mean they they've had the world. I mean they they've had tremendous influence on evangelical tremendous influence on evangelical tremendous influence on evangelical culture. So do you see that continuing?

culture. So do you see that continuing? culture. So do you see that continuing? What has their legacy been? I'd love to What has their legacy been? I'd love to What has their legacy been? I'd love to hear your thoughts on that. I think one hear your thoughts on that. I think one hear your thoughts on that. I think one of the transition points here and this of the transition points here and this of the transition points here and this actually points back to something in actually points back to something in actually points back to something in presidential politics. presidential politics. presidential politics. We still have never had a president in We still have never had a president in We still have never had a president in the United States of America who was f the United States of America who was f the United States of America who was f who became famous who became famous who became famous after after the internet. I mean Barack after after the internet. I mean Barack after after the internet. I mean Barack Obama is about as close as you get to Obama is about as close as you get to Obama is about as close as you get to that. That's still early internet when that. That's still early internet when that. That's still early internet when he becomes wellknown 2004 then 2006 he becomes wellknown 2004 then 2006 he becomes wellknown 2004 then 2006 especially and into 2008. Um but when especially and into 2008. Um but when especially and into 2008. Um but when you think about people like Joe Biden, you think about people like Joe Biden, you think about people like Joe Biden, you think about Hillary Clinton, you you think about Hillary Clinton, you you think about Hillary Clinton, you think about Donald Trump. Of course, all think about Donald Trump. Of course, all think about Donald Trump. Of course, all these people are well known before the these people are well known before the these people are well known before the internet. Well, part of what you're internet. Well, part of what you're internet. Well, part of what you're seeing is the fragmentation of the seeing is the fragmentation of the seeing is the fragmentation of the culture because of the internet. Well, culture because of the internet. Well, culture because of the internet. Well, one thing about John MacArthur, KA one thing about John MacArthur, KA one thing about John MacArthur, KA Arthur, and James Dobson is that their Arthur, and James Dobson is that their Arthur, and James Dobson is that their influence was nearly ubiquitous. Um, I I influence was nearly ubiquitous. Um, I I influence was nearly ubiquitous. Um, I I was not I didn't grow up in a super high was not I didn't grow up in a super high was not I didn't grow up in a super high information evangelical household, but information evangelical household, but information evangelical household, but still those would have been people that still those would have been people that still those would have been people that I would have encountered on the radio or I would have encountered on the radio or I would have encountered on the radio or a KA Arthur studies would have showed up a KA Arthur studies would have showed up a KA Arthur studies would have showed up um you know in in different settings. uh um you know in in different settings. uh um you know in in different settings. uh people in my family would have had James people in my family would have had James people in my family would have had James Dobson books about parenting, things Dobson books about parenting, things Dobson books about parenting, things like that. Um that era of like that. Um that era of like that. Um that era of that level that level of influence that that level that level of influence that that level that level of influence that comes primarily from publishing books comes primarily from publishing books comes primarily from publishing books connected to people listening to talk

connected to people listening to talk connected to people listening to talk radio that really has passed. So radio that really has passed. So radio that really has passed. So somebody can be tremendously influential somebody can be tremendously influential somebody can be tremendously influential now but not reach a wide spectrum of now but not reach a wide spectrum of now but not reach a wide spectrum of evangelicalism. They can still sell a evangelicalism. They can still sell a evangelicalism. They can still sell a lot of books. They can still be really lot of books. They can still be really lot of books. They can still be really popular. They can still exert tremendous popular. They can still exert tremendous popular. They can still exert tremendous influence but not not in the same way. influence but not not in the same way. influence but not not in the same way. Now Vodie Balkam was a little bit Now Vodie Balkam was a little bit Now Vodie Balkam was a little bit different because his primary uh I mean different because his primary uh I mean different because his primary uh I mean similar to Dobson became wellknown similar to Dobson became wellknown similar to Dobson became wellknown because of his writing on parenting. Um because of his writing on parenting. Um because of his writing on parenting. Um but dissimilarly he's deca he was but dissimilarly he's deca he was but dissimilarly he's deca he was decades younger than these others when decades younger than these others when decades younger than these others when he died. His prominence was primarily he died. His prominence was primarily he died. His prominence was primarily tied to YouTube. And so kind of a tied to YouTube. And so kind of a tied to YouTube. And so kind of a transitional figure there in Gen X from transitional figure there in Gen X from transitional figure there in Gen X from this older older generation primarily this older older generation primarily this older older generation primarily books and then internet then into the books and then internet then into the books and then internet then into the way YouTube would come to be dominant way YouTube would come to be dominant way YouTube would come to be dominant and and still and is right now and and and still and is right now and and and still and is right now and presumably will be for for quite a bit presumably will be for for quite a bit presumably will be for for quite a bit of time. Melissa, you're the one who of time. Melissa, you're the one who of time. Melissa, you're the one who wrote the article for us about KA wrote the article for us about KA wrote the article for us about KA Arthur. I would love to hear Arthur. I would love to hear Arthur. I would love to hear specifically about the influence that specifically about the influence that specifically about the influence that she had and this is a a list of top she had and this is a a list of top she had and this is a a list of top theology stories. What difference did KA theology stories. What difference did KA theology stories. What difference did KA Arthur make in terms of women Arthur make in terms of women Arthur make in terms of women especially, but churches and their and especially, but churches and their and especially, but churches and their and how they approach the Bible and how they how they approach the Bible and how they how they approach the Bible and how they put it together theologically?

put it together theologically? put it together theologically? >> Yeah, I'm I'm just putting together >> Yeah, I'm I'm just putting together >> Yeah, I'm I'm just putting together something from what you just said. You something from what you just said. You something from what you just said. You know, I've thought about this a lot when know, I've thought about this a lot when know, I've thought about this a lot when it comes to kind of like a common story it comes to kind of like a common story it comes to kind of like a common story we have culturally, even with our we have culturally, even with our we have culturally, even with our entertainment, you know. Um, growing up, entertainment, you know. Um, growing up, entertainment, you know. Um, growing up, everyone on Thursday night watched the everyone on Thursday night watched the everyone on Thursday night watched the Cosby Show and Family Ties and we all Cosby Show and Family Ties and we all Cosby Show and Family Ties and we all talked about it at school and you had to talked about it at school and you had to talked about it at school and you had to wait. I've thought about it a lot in wait. I've thought about it a lot in wait. I've thought about it a lot in terms of entertainment that my kids grew terms of entertainment that my kids grew terms of entertainment that my kids grew up with a completely different story up with a completely different story up with a completely different story than a lot of kids maybe at different than a lot of kids maybe at different than a lot of kids maybe at different schools would have grown up because we schools would have grown up because we schools would have grown up because we could, you know, really watch what they could, you know, really watch what they could, you know, really watch what they were seeing on TV and we could pick that were seeing on TV and we could pick that were seeing on TV and we could pick that in different ways that wasn't available. in different ways that wasn't available. in different ways that wasn't available. I hadn't thought about it in how it's I hadn't thought about it in how it's I hadn't thought about it in how it's shaping u modern evangelical thought and shaping u modern evangelical thought and shaping u modern evangelical thought and you really can kind of like Netflix your you really can kind of like Netflix your you really can kind of like Netflix your pics and just listen to certain people pics and just listen to certain people pics and just listen to certain people and I whereas what I even wrote about in and I whereas what I even wrote about in and I whereas what I even wrote about in the story about KA Arthur I found KA the story about KA Arthur I found KA the story about KA Arthur I found KA Arthur I went to Sign of the Fish Arthur I went to Sign of the Fish Arthur I went to Sign of the Fish bookstore in Raleigh North Carolina bookstore in Raleigh North Carolina bookstore in Raleigh North Carolina that's what it was called it wasn't a that's what it was called it wasn't a that's what it was called it wasn't a big lifeway store it was just a little big lifeway store it was just a little big lifeway store it was just a little Christian bookstore um back in the day Christian bookstore um back in the day Christian bookstore um back in the day and her works were there and and and I and her works were there and and and I and her works were there and and and I can say without a doubt she's the woman can say without a doubt she's the woman can say without a doubt she's the woman who taught me how to study the Bible. Um who taught me how to study the Bible. Um who taught me how to study the Bible. Um just line by line, precept by precept just line by line, precept by precept just line by line, precept by precept and it made a huge impact on my life. I and it made a huge impact on my life. I and it made a huge impact on my life. I I I was learning as I was doing and I I I was learning as I was doing and I I I was learning as I was doing and I didn't even realize what I was learning.

didn't even realize what I was learning. didn't even realize what I was learning. um the basic hermeneutical principles um the basic hermeneutical principles um the basic hermeneutical principles that she's teaching as you go along just that she's teaching as you go along just that she's teaching as you go along just doing your homework day by day um doing your homework day by day um doing your homework day by day um changed my life and what I wasn't aware changed my life and what I wasn't aware changed my life and what I wasn't aware of I knew it changed my life but through of I knew it changed my life but through of I knew it changed my life but through that article I realized oh wow just what that article I realized oh wow just what that article I realized oh wow just what you were saying her influence was all you were saying her influence was all you were saying her influence was all over the world so many women came up to over the world so many women came up to over the world so many women came up to me and said in my real life and online me and said in my real life and online me and said in my real life and online life yeah no she changed my life too I life yeah no she changed my life too I life yeah no she changed my life too I never learned to study the Bible until I never learned to study the Bible until I never learned to study the Bible until I did a KA Arthur study and so um I think did a KA Arthur study and so um I think did a KA Arthur study and so um I think what we see is in some of these older what we see is in some of these older what we see is in some of these older authors, um, their influence was deep authors, um, their influence was deep authors, um, their influence was deep and wide. and wide. and wide. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and it's just really different >> You know, and it's just really different >> You know, and it's just really different now because now it's kind of like now because now it's kind of like now because now it's kind of like popularity is the driving force in popularity is the driving force in popularity is the driving force in publishing, which is a little different. publishing, which is a little different. publishing, which is a little different. It used to be you had to have substance It used to be you had to have substance It used to be you had to have substance to get published. Um, and then Yeah. to get published. Um, and then Yeah. to get published. Um, and then Yeah. Yeah. So, we're seeing some changes in Yeah. So, we're seeing some changes in Yeah. So, we're seeing some changes in that. It's kind of interesting to see that. It's kind of interesting to see that. It's kind of interesting to see where that's going to go. That's a that where that's going to go. That's a that where that's going to go. That's a that is definitely a comma. It was it was it is definitely a comma. It was it was it is definitely a comma. It was it was it was different before as well. So there was different before as well. So there was different before as well. So there was a certain period when there was was a certain period when there was was a certain period when there was still more of a monoculture than total still more of a monoculture than total still more of a monoculture than total fragmentation. You still had more of a fragmentation. You still had more of a fragmentation. You still had more of a mass culture, but you also had mass mass culture, but you also had mass mass culture, but you also had mass literacy. You also had um mass groups of literacy. You also had um mass groups of literacy. You also had um mass groups of people that were listening to the same people that were listening to the same people that were listening to the same radio stations and things like that. So radio stations and things like that. So radio stations and things like that. So before that, you still would have had before that, you still would have had before that, you still would have had you would not have had those dynamics as you would not have had those dynamics as you would not have had those dynamics as well. So this is an example where it's well. So this is an example where it's well. So this is an example where it's not like there's just declenion over

not like there's just declenion over not like there's just declenion over time, but there are these ups and downs time, but there are these ups and downs time, but there are these ups and downs of okay, now it's easier for anybody to of okay, now it's easier for anybody to of okay, now it's easier for anybody to have access to an audience, but harder have access to an audience, but harder have access to an audience, but harder than it's been since before that era of than it's been since before that era of than it's been since before that era of mass media to be able to reach the same mass media to be able to reach the same mass media to be able to reach the same audience for for everyone. audience for for everyone. audience for for everyone. So you really think about that period So you really think about that period So you really think about that period from Billy Graham who's a good bit old from Billy Graham who's a good bit old from Billy Graham who's a good bit old who was a good bit older than this group who was a good bit older than this group who was a good bit older than this group from Billy Graham that television radio from Billy Graham that television radio from Billy Graham that television radio era all the way through to really about era all the way through to really about era all the way through to really about about the internet in 2000 again about the internet in 2000 again about the internet in 2000 again mentioning that that's you know we just mentioning that that's you know we just mentioning that that's you know we just we haven't had any of those mass figures we haven't had any of those mass figures we haven't had any of those mass figures and so now the only kind of mass culture and so now the only kind of mass culture and so now the only kind of mass culture we have is the NFL and presidential we have is the NFL and presidential we have is the NFL and presidential politics politics politics >> um and in the church yeah that very >> um and in the church yeah that very >> um and in the church yeah that very significant theological implications if significant theological implications if significant theological implications if instead of all of us learning from instead of all of us learning from instead of all of us learning from either the same local leader and our either the same local leader and our either the same local leader and our context is local or the same national context is local or the same national context is local or the same national leaders because we're reading the same leaders because we're reading the same leaders because we're reading the same books from the same bookstores and books from the same bookstores and books from the same bookstores and listen to the same radio stations now listen to the same radio stations now listen to the same radio stations now it's definitely choose your own it's definitely choose your own it's definitely choose your own adventure so you can have the same adventure so you can have the same adventure so you can have the same congregation but and especially in a congregation but and especially in a congregation but and especially in a non-denominational era people can have non-denominational era people can have non-denominational era people can have chosen very different paths I just had a chosen very different paths I just had a chosen very different paths I just had a friend come up to me asking about a friend come up to me asking about a friend come up to me asking about a media group and he said, "What do you media group and he said, "What do you media group and he said, "What do you think of this group?" And he had every think of this group?" And he had every think of this group?" And he had every reason to assume that I knew what he was reason to assume that I knew what he was reason to assume that I knew what he was talking about given the work that we do talking about given the work that we do talking about given the work that we do professionally professionally professionally and I did not. I said

and I did not. I said and I did not. I said >> he stumped you, Colin. >> he stumped you, Colin. >> he stumped you, Colin. >> Yeah. I said I said, "It sounds great. I >> Yeah. I said I said, "It sounds great. I >> Yeah. I said I said, "It sounds great. I just can't quite place that." just can't quite place that." just can't quite place that." >> Colin, that might be the first sign of >> Colin, that might be the first sign of >> Colin, that might be the first sign of that you're aging. You're getting a that you're aging. You're getting a that you're aging. You're getting a little out of touch. I'm so excited little out of touch. I'm so excited little out of touch. I'm so excited about it. about it. about it. If it had been a 20-year-old who was If it had been a 20-year-old who was If it had been a 20-year-old who was talking about a YouTube channel or Tik talking about a YouTube channel or Tik talking about a YouTube channel or Tik Tok, that would have been one thing. I Tok, that would have been one thing. I Tok, that would have been one thing. I would have said, "Of course, I don't would have said, "Of course, I don't would have said, "Of course, I don't know what I'm talking about there." But know what I'm talking about there." But know what I'm talking about there." But yeah, I just it was it was pretty yeah, I just it was it was pretty yeah, I just it was it was pretty embarrassing. embarrassing. embarrassing. >> Now, you know how I feel like all of the >> Now, you know how I feel like all of the >> Now, you know how I feel like all of the time, Colin? Like that's what most of us time, Colin? Like that's what most of us time, Colin? Like that's what most of us walk around feeling like every day when walk around feeling like every day when walk around feeling like every day when we go on Twitter. I'm like, we go on Twitter. I'm like, we go on Twitter. I'm like, >> but it can show you that for better or >> but it can show you that for better or >> but it can show you that for better or worse, this this member of my church, worse, this this member of my church, worse, this this member of my church, this wonderful wonderful guy is is being this wonderful wonderful guy is is being this wonderful wonderful guy is is being very edified by this podcast, this very edified by this podcast, this very edified by this podcast, this YouTube channel has made a huge YouTube channel has made a huge YouTube channel has made a huge difference in his life. And I I don't difference in his life. And I I don't difference in his life. And I I don't know if anybody in our church of know if anybody in our church of know if anybody in our church of thousands of people also uses it. thousands of people also uses it. thousands of people also uses it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um so yeah, it's it is a is a best and >> Um so yeah, it's it is a is a best and >> Um so yeah, it's it is a is a best and both best and worst. You can see the both best and worst. You can see the both best and worst. You can see the positives, you can see the negatives, positives, you can see the negatives, positives, you can see the negatives, but no doubt it's a major theology but no doubt it's a major theology but no doubt it's a major theology story.

story. story. >> Yeah. Yeah. I was just this weekend >> Yeah. Yeah. I was just this weekend >> Yeah. Yeah. I was just this weekend really encouraged. A friend had sent me really encouraged. A friend had sent me really encouraged. A friend had sent me this podcast. It was some Australian this podcast. It was some Australian this podcast. It was some Australian podcasters. And I now that you're saying podcasters. And I now that you're saying podcasters. And I now that you're saying this, I realized I would have never this, I realized I would have never this, I realized I would have never listened. I would have never known who listened. I would have never known who listened. I would have never known who these people were. I mean, without the these people were. I mean, without the these people were. I mean, without the medium that we have today of being able medium that we have today of being able medium that we have today of being able to listen to a Christian around the to listen to a Christian around the to listen to a Christian around the world who could actually encourage me as world who could actually encourage me as world who could actually encourage me as I'm wrapping Christmas gifts in my I'm wrapping Christmas gifts in my I'm wrapping Christmas gifts in my house, you know, this weekend. And so house, you know, this weekend. And so house, you know, this weekend. And so it's it's amazing and yet it's also a it's it's amazing and yet it's also a it's it's amazing and yet it's also a call to root ourselves in God's word all call to root ourselves in God's word all call to root ourselves in God's word all the more. I just have to say this the more. I just have to say this the more. I just have to say this because um because um because um >> it it there there's a right correction >> it it there there's a right correction >> it it there there's a right correction that can happen by having many voices, that can happen by having many voices, that can happen by having many voices, but there's also the reality that we can but there's also the reality that we can but there's also the reality that we can be led astray by many voices. I mean be led astray by many voices. I mean be led astray by many voices. I mean there's a lot of bad theology out there there's a lot of bad theology out there there's a lot of bad theology out there with a lot of good theology out there. with a lot of good theology out there. with a lot of good theology out there. And so it's it's a good reminder to us And so it's it's a good reminder to us And so it's it's a good reminder to us all. Um we have to first be in God's all. Um we have to first be in God's all. Um we have to first be in God's word and really monitor what we're word and really monitor what we're word and really monitor what we're listening to. Not that we can't listen listening to. Not that we can't listen listening to. Not that we can't listen critically to people we disagree with. critically to people we disagree with. critically to people we disagree with. We should do that. But we have to just We should do that. But we have to just We should do that. But we have to just be aware that not everyone out there who be aware that not everyone out there who be aware that not everyone out there who claims to be upholding the truth is claims to be upholding the truth is claims to be upholding the truth is actually doing so. And so actually doing so. And so actually doing so. And so >> we the tears >> we the tears >> we the tears >> is the wheat and wheat and tears era >> is the wheat and wheat and tears era >> is the wheat and wheat and tears era media for sure.

media for sure. media for sure. >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of that, um, >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of that, um, >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, speaking of that, um, not only have there been changes in our not only have there been changes in our not only have there been changes in our evangelical leadership, there have been evangelical leadership, there have been evangelical leadership, there have been two massive changes, um, between the two massive changes, um, between the two massive changes, um, between the Archbishop of Canterbury and a new pope. Archbishop of Canterbury and a new pope. Archbishop of Canterbury and a new pope. Um, so what are you seeing in these Um, so what are you seeing in these Um, so what are you seeing in these changes? Any thoughts on these two new changes? Any thoughts on these two new changes? Any thoughts on these two new leaders that we see emerging? leaders that we see emerging? leaders that we see emerging? >> So maybe there Melissa and ellipses and >> So maybe there Melissa and ellipses and >> So maybe there Melissa and ellipses and then a comma. So the ellipses there. I then a comma. So the ellipses there. I then a comma. So the ellipses there. I don't know how much has really changed don't know how much has really changed don't know how much has really changed in the Anglican communion with this in the Anglican communion with this in the Anglican communion with this regard. Um there was definitely and we regard. Um there was definitely and we regard. Um there was definitely and we wrote about this three or four different wrote about this three or four different wrote about this three or four different times at TGC. There was a definite times at TGC. There was a definite times at TGC. There was a definite assertiveness from especially African assertiveness from especially African assertiveness from especially African and majority world leadership within and majority world leadership within and majority world leadership within their different Anglican dascese saying their different Anglican dascese saying their different Anglican dascese saying that's it. I mean we we do not with this that's it. I mean we we do not with this that's it. I mean we we do not with this new archbishop of Canterbury. We do not new archbishop of Canterbury. We do not new archbishop of Canterbury. We do not recognize any primacy of Canterbury. recognize any primacy of Canterbury. recognize any primacy of Canterbury. Now, that had already been the place Now, that had already been the place Now, that had already been the place that had really been the case because of that had really been the case because of that had really been the case because of the changes that had come with with not the changes that had come with with not the changes that had come with with not disciplining gay bishops in different disciplining gay bishops in different disciplining gay bishops in different areas and still recognizing them. Then areas and still recognizing them. Then areas and still recognizing them. Then blessing same-sex unions, then moving blessing same-sex unions, then moving blessing same-sex unions, then moving toward that in the Church of England in toward that in the Church of England in toward that in the Church of England in recent years. And then the new recent years. And then the new recent years. And then the new Archbishop of Canterbury, she also Archbishop of Canterbury, she also Archbishop of Canterbury, she also supports those same-sex unions. So, supports those same-sex unions. So, supports those same-sex unions. So, there was some talk about how maybe this there was some talk about how maybe this there was some talk about how maybe this is because she's a woman. I don't think is because she's a woman. I don't think is because she's a woman. I don't think that was really a decisive factor,

that was really a decisive factor, that was really a decisive factor, though it is a noteworthy factor that though it is a noteworthy factor that though it is a noteworthy factor that you've not had a woman before in that you've not had a woman before in that you've not had a woman before in that position. Most people probably just know position. Most people probably just know position. Most people probably just know the Archbishop of Canterbury because of the Archbishop of Canterbury because of the Archbishop of Canterbury because of thinking of coronations and royal thinking of coronations and royal thinking of coronations and royal weddings. Um, and that function of weddings. Um, and that function of weddings. Um, and that function of course is still is still significant and course is still is still significant and course is still is still significant and important, but not really when it comes important, but not really when it comes important, but not really when it comes to theological direction for the rest of to theological direction for the rest of to theological direction for the rest of the Anglican Communion. This definitely the Anglican Communion. This definitely the Anglican Communion. This definitely fits Melissa within the list that I'm fits Melissa within the list that I'm fits Melissa within the list that I'm currently compiling in my head of the currently compiling in my head of the currently compiling in my head of the top 10 theology stories of the 21st top 10 theology stories of the 21st top 10 theology stories of the 21st century so far, these last 25 years. century so far, these last 25 years. century so far, these last 25 years. Because the shift of Christian Because the shift of Christian Because the shift of Christian leadership, continuing shift away from leadership, continuing shift away from leadership, continuing shift away from Europe and North America toward Africa Europe and North America toward Africa Europe and North America toward Africa is most clearly indicated in what's is most clearly indicated in what's is most clearly indicated in what's happening with the Anglican communion. happening with the Anglican communion. happening with the Anglican communion. And probably a lot of people watching And probably a lot of people watching And probably a lot of people watching and listening to us have picked up in and listening to us have picked up in and listening to us have picked up in the last couple decades that there are the last couple decades that there are the last couple decades that there are vastly more Anglicans worshiping in vastly more Anglicans worshiping in vastly more Anglicans worshiping in Africa um alone, let alone I mean then Africa um alone, let alone I mean then Africa um alone, let alone I mean then compared to North America and England. compared to North America and England. compared to North America and England. So in that sense it's it's a So in that sense it's it's a So in that sense it's it's a continuation but the assertiveness continuation but the assertiveness continuation but the assertiveness coming out of of GFCON that's the coming out of of GFCON that's the coming out of of GFCON that's the majority world conservative leadership majority world conservative leadership majority world conservative leadership um coordinated leadership of the um coordinated leadership of the um coordinated leadership of the Anglican Communion which which also Anglican Communion which which also Anglican Communion which which also includes North American conservatives includes North American conservatives includes North American conservatives that was again more assertive this time that was again more assertive this time that was again more assertive this time but really a continuation. The comma but really a continuation. The comma but really a continuation. The comma comes with the new pope. you get a new comes with the new pope. you get a new comes with the new pope. you get a new pope except for the the last situation pope except for the the last situation pope except for the the last situation which was not quite unprecedented but which was not quite unprecedented but which was not quite unprecedented but not not precedented very often of a not not precedented very often of a not not precedented very often of a resignation of a pope but in that ca but

resignation of a pope but in that ca but resignation of a pope but in that ca but in this case we had the death of pope in this case we had the death of pope in this case we had the death of pope Francis who was a confusing figure I Francis who was a confusing figure I Francis who was a confusing figure I think we can say there's endless debates think we can say there's endless debates think we can say there's endless debates there the current pope the most there the current pope the most there the current pope the most significant fact is simply that he's an significant fact is simply that he's an significant fact is simply that he's an American American American But that doesn't we don't really know But that doesn't we don't really know But that doesn't we don't really know what that means at this point. Um we what that means at this point. Um we what that means at this point. Um we don't know does it significant of a don't know does it significant of a don't know does it significant of a switch more you know toward an Austinian switch more you know toward an Austinian switch more you know toward an Austinian away from a Jesuit. Well historically away from a Jesuit. Well historically away from a Jesuit. Well historically that's been really significant. So that that's been really significant. So that that's been really significant. So that could that could play a could play a could that could play a could play a could that could play a could play a role. Um but we haven't seen major role. Um but we haven't seen major role. Um but we haven't seen major political fights. We haven't seen major political fights. We haven't seen major political fights. We haven't seen major shifts. We haven't seen major roll backs shifts. We haven't seen major roll backs shifts. We haven't seen major roll backs or accelerations yet. or accelerations yet. or accelerations yet. um he hasn't been there for for that um he hasn't been there for for that um he hasn't been there for for that long. And also the the part of the new long. And also the the part of the new long. And also the the part of the new pope being American is a little bit pope being American is a little bit pope being American is a little bit confusing because let's go back to the confusing because let's go back to the confusing because let's go back to the mass culture again. We don't have a mass mass culture again. We don't have a mass mass culture again. We don't have a mass religious culture religious culture religious culture especially when it comes to the Catholic especially when it comes to the Catholic especially when it comes to the Catholic Church. So of course we have to be able Church. So of course we have to be able Church. So of course we have to be able to translate the significance of the to translate the significance of the to translate the significance of the pope into the terms that we understand pope into the terms that we understand pope into the terms that we understand which is sports.

which is sports. which is sports. So all the talk is about, wait, he was So all the talk is about, wait, he was So all the talk is about, wait, he was at the World Series. We found him in the at the World Series. We found him in the at the World Series. We found him in the stands when the Chicago White Socks, you stands when the Chicago White Socks, you stands when the Chicago White Socks, you know, won the World Series and people know, won the World Series and people know, won the World Series and people are giving him shoutouts and jerseys and are giving him shoutouts and jerseys and are giving him shoutouts and jerseys and he's responding. I don't know that any he's responding. I don't know that any he's responding. I don't know that any of that is theologically important of that is theologically important of that is theologically important except to remind us that even popes are except to remind us that even popes are except to remind us that even popes are humans as well with human humans as well with human humans as well with human >> or maybe our biggest religion in this >> or maybe our biggest religion in this >> or maybe our biggest religion in this country might be sports. But country might be sports. But country might be sports. But >> I think that's safe to say. the fact >> I think that's safe to say. the fact >> I think that's safe to say. the fact that we probably used to have to that we probably used to have to that we probably used to have to translate uh sports into religion to be translate uh sports into religion to be translate uh sports into religion to be able to understand it. Things like the able to understand it. Things like the able to understand it. Things like the Hail Mary pass. Maybe perhaps we're Hail Mary pass. Maybe perhaps we're Hail Mary pass. Maybe perhaps we're having to translate religion now into having to translate religion now into having to translate religion now into sports to be able to understand any of sports to be able to understand any of sports to be able to understand any of it to be able to say nothing about what it to be able to say nothing about what it to be able to say nothing about what does it mean that he grew up in Chicago? does it mean that he grew up in Chicago? does it mean that he grew up in Chicago? What is what's his agenda? But wait, What is what's his agenda? But wait, What is what's his agenda? But wait, Cubs or socks? Cubs or socks? Cubs or socks? Which side did he choose? Which side did he choose? Which side did he choose? >> These are the important theological >> These are the important theological >> These are the important theological things we need him to weigh in on. It things we need him to weigh in on. It things we need him to weigh in on. It sounds like Yeah. sounds like Yeah. sounds like Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. Um but being Catholic from the >> Right. Um but being Catholic from the >> Right. Um but being Catholic from the Southside pretty clearly and then you Southside pretty clearly and then you Southside pretty clearly and then you know a legitimate Socks fan there. So we know a legitimate Socks fan there. So we know a legitimate Socks fan there. So we don't know we this is the change with a don't know we this is the change with a don't know we this is the change with a pope is almost always significant pope is almost always significant pope is almost always significant especially coming off a longer tenure especially coming off a longer tenure especially coming off a longer tenure like Francis had. But uh yeah we just we like Francis had. But uh yeah we just we like Francis had. But uh yeah we just we don't know. Remains to be seen um on the don't know. Remains to be seen um on the don't know. Remains to be seen um on the new first first American pope in new first first American pope in new first first American pope in history. and consequential in and of history. and consequential in and of history. and consequential in and of itself, first female Archbishop of itself, first female Archbishop of itself, first female Archbishop of Canterbury, first American United Canterbury, first American United Canterbury, first American United States, you know, first from the United

States, you know, first from the United States, you know, first from the United States Pope. That's a pretty big deal. States Pope. That's a pretty big deal. States Pope. That's a pretty big deal. >> What's interesting with that shift in >> What's interesting with that shift in >> What's interesting with that shift in the Archbishop of Canterbury on a the Archbishop of Canterbury on a the Archbishop of Canterbury on a positive note, um the Bible Society positive note, um the Bible Society positive note, um the Bible Society found um substantial increases in church found um substantial increases in church found um substantial increases in church attendance in England and Wales, attendance in England and Wales, attendance in England and Wales, particularly particularly particularly men between the ages of 18 and 24. And men between the ages of 18 and 24. And men between the ages of 18 and 24. And you know, you and I have talked about you know, you and I have talked about you know, you and I have talked about this in past years that church this in past years that church this in past years that church attendance is actually one of the um attendance is actually one of the um attendance is actually one of the um maybe biggest u or most significant data maybe biggest u or most significant data maybe biggest u or most significant data points when it comes to faith impacting points when it comes to faith impacting points when it comes to faith impacting the life particularly of men. It seems the life particularly of men. It seems the life particularly of men. It seems you know making changes in their life. you know making changes in their life. you know making changes in their life. Um so I find this number really Um so I find this number really Um so I find this number really encouraging that more 18 to 24 year old encouraging that more 18 to 24 year old encouraging that more 18 to 24 year old men are going to church. Um, but this men are going to church. Um, but this men are going to church. Um, but this seems really surprising because the seems really surprising because the seems really surprising because the trajectory typically is once you slide trajectory typically is once you slide trajectory typically is once you slide down this kind of slope of liberal down this kind of slope of liberal down this kind of slope of liberal theology, lack of church, it church theology, lack of church, it church theology, lack of church, it church attendance, it doesn't seem like we go attendance, it doesn't seem like we go attendance, it doesn't seem like we go back. And so, is this a comma? Is this, back. And so, is this a comma? Is this, back. And so, is this a comma? Is this, you know, I don't know, an exclamation you know, I don't know, an exclamation you know, I don't know, an exclamation point? I don't know. What What is What point? I don't know. What What is What point? I don't know. What What is What are you seeing with this or what are are you seeing with this or what are are you seeing with this or what are your thoughts on this? And I'm your thoughts on this? And I'm your thoughts on this? And I'm encouraged from what I'm seeing in I encouraged from what I'm seeing in I encouraged from what I'm seeing in I mean we've talked about this offline a mean we've talked about this offline a mean we've talked about this offline a lot um in the college campus world lot um in the college campus world lot um in the college campus world things going on even in our own country things going on even in our own country things going on even in our own country um but I found this really surprising um but I found this really surprising um but I found this really surprising coming from England and Wales.

coming from England and Wales. coming from England and Wales. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, Well, Well, one of the things we've been looking at one of the things we've been looking at one of the things we've been looking at for years would be London specifically for years would be London specifically for years would be London specifically as the world's first post secular city. as the world's first post secular city. as the world's first post secular city. So at the Keller Center here at TGC, we So at the Keller Center here at TGC, we So at the Keller Center here at TGC, we talk often about postchristryendom talk often about postchristryendom talk often about postchristryendom and of course what follows and of course what follows and of course what follows Christrysendom but secularism but then Christrysendom but secularism but then Christrysendom but secularism but then what follows secularism. what follows secularism. what follows secularism. So London is one of the most interesting So London is one of the most interesting So London is one of the most interesting examples because examples because examples because it's actually bottom the church it's actually bottom the church it's actually bottom the church attendance in London bottomed out a long attendance in London bottomed out a long attendance in London bottomed out a long time ago. It bottomed out around 1980. time ago. It bottomed out around 1980. time ago. It bottomed out around 1980. Um, and what changed it was primarily Um, and what changed it was primarily Um, and what changed it was primarily immigration and especially immigration immigration and especially immigration immigration and especially immigration from Africa connected back to the from Africa connected back to the from Africa connected back to the previous story as as you said. So London previous story as as you said. So London previous story as as you said. So London for a whole bunch of different reasons for a whole bunch of different reasons for a whole bunch of different reasons is is is regarded as the first post secular city regarded as the first post secular city regarded as the first post secular city yet still this information was very yet still this information was very yet still this information was very surprising. But we're looking at it at surprising. But we're looking at it at surprising. But we're looking at it at this trend a number of different ways.

this trend a number of different ways. this trend a number of different ways. We have this survey from the Bible We have this survey from the Bible We have this survey from the Bible society. We have anecdotal evidence society. We have anecdotal evidence society. We have anecdotal evidence that's coming from church leaders all that's coming from church leaders all that's coming from church leaders all over the country and you don't always over the country and you don't always over the country and you don't always have that. Um it's it's fairly difficult have that. Um it's it's fairly difficult have that. Um it's it's fairly difficult for church leaders to just manufacture for church leaders to just manufacture for church leaders to just manufacture or fake that there's a lot of interest or fake that there's a lot of interest or fake that there's a lot of interest especially something like church especially something like church especially something like church attendance. Um that's not really common attendance. Um that's not really common attendance. Um that's not really common to be able to do. Now, it's still could to be able to do. Now, it's still could to be able to do. Now, it's still could still be anecdotal and overall things still be anecdotal and overall things still be anecdotal and overall things could still be down in different ways, could still be down in different ways, could still be down in different ways, but we then we have this this survey and but we then we have this this survey and but we then we have this this survey and you also have these highprofile you also have these highprofile you also have these highprofile conversions that we've talked about in conversions that we've talked about in conversions that we've talked about in past years which includes some really past years which includes some really past years which includes some really significant figures in the UK. You also significant figures in the UK. You also significant figures in the UK. You also have a a national mood shift in some have a a national mood shift in some have a a national mood shift in some ways. Um, that would be evidenced from ways. Um, that would be evidenced from ways. Um, that would be evidenced from from things like Tom Holland's podcast, from things like Tom Holland's podcast, from things like Tom Holland's podcast, The Rest is History, just named the The Rest is History, just named the The Rest is History, just named the number one, you know, podcast of the number one, you know, podcast of the number one, you know, podcast of the year by Apple. Um, well, I mean, Tom is year by Apple. Um, well, I mean, Tom is year by Apple. Um, well, I mean, Tom is one of the most significant figures in one of the most significant figures in one of the most significant figures in cultural apologetics and also is now one cultural apologetics and also is now one cultural apologetics and also is now one of the most significant figures in of the most significant figures in of the most significant figures in podcasting and probably the most popular podcasting and probably the most popular podcasting and probably the most popular history teacher alive today. Um, all of history teacher alive today. Um, all of history teacher alive today. Um, all of that is really significant. So there are that is really significant. So there are that is really significant. So there are some people who have pushed back and some people who have pushed back and some people who have pushed back and said whether in the UK or more broadly said whether in the UK or more broadly said whether in the UK or more broadly in the United States, no, no, no.

in the United States, no, no, no. in the United States, no, no, no. There's no actual evidence of this when There's no actual evidence of this when There's no actual evidence of this when you look at the numbers. But I'm trying you look at the numbers. But I'm trying you look at the numbers. But I'm trying to just point out it's not coming from to just point out it's not coming from to just point out it's not coming from nowhere. This is not just a few people nowhere. This is not just a few people nowhere. This is not just a few people who are trying to hype something. You who are trying to hype something. You who are trying to hype something. You mentioned the Bible society here. the mentioned the Bible society here. the mentioned the Bible society here. the reports all over the place have been uh reports all over the place have been uh reports all over the place have been uh Bible sales increasing certainly United Bible sales increasing certainly United Bible sales increasing certainly United States but also also in the UK at least States but also also in the UK at least States but also also in the UK at least if I'm remembering remembering correctly if I'm remembering remembering correctly if I'm remembering remembering correctly there so there's something happening but there so there's something happening but there so there's something happening but the comma strikes again because if we the comma strikes again because if we the comma strikes again because if we did this survey again would it show oh did this survey again would it show oh did this survey again would it show oh maybe we were just just kind of hoping maybe we were just just kind of hoping maybe we were just just kind of hoping and it was an outlier but if it you and it was an outlier but if it you and it was an outlier but if it you continue to run the same survey with the continue to run the same survey with the continue to run the same survey with the right methodology and it reports right methodology and it reports right methodology and it reports something back and people are continuing something back and people are continuing something back and people are continuing to cite the same statistic and people to cite the same statistic and people to cite the same statistic and people saying the same anecdotes then I think saying the same anecdotes then I think saying the same anecdotes then I think we are seeing more of a reversal but we are seeing more of a reversal but we are seeing more of a reversal but simply to point out simply to point out simply to point out we really have been shifting away from we really have been shifting away from we really have been shifting away from secularism especially in the London area secularism especially in the London area secularism especially in the London area for a while um even as the country for a while um even as the country for a while um even as the country remains very low observance overall of remains very low observance overall of remains very low observance overall of religion. Yeah, I was really struck um religion. Yeah, I was really struck um religion. Yeah, I was really struck um as I was thinking about this and as I was thinking about this and as I was thinking about this and thinking about Louise Perry who came out thinking about Louise Perry who came out thinking about Louise Perry who came out this year as a Christian. Um we've this year as a Christian. Um we've this year as a Christian. Um we've talked about her work before um in the talked about her work before um in the talked about her work before um in the case against the sexual revolution. She case against the sexual revolution. She case against the sexual revolution. She wrote a great book and she was not a wrote a great book and she was not a wrote a great book and she was not a Christian when she wrote that. She was Christian when she wrote that. She was Christian when she wrote that. She was just a secular just a secular just a secular sociologist I guess is what she was. She sociologist I guess is what she was. She sociologist I guess is what she was. She was just studying trends and I was

was just studying trends and I was was just studying trends and I was fascinated by her research because she fascinated by her research because she fascinated by her research because she came to the conclusion monogamy is came to the conclusion monogamy is came to the conclusion monogamy is definitely the best for women. And then definitely the best for women. And then definitely the best for women. And then really it's the best for men too because really it's the best for men too because really it's the best for men too because in some ways it makes men settle down. in some ways it makes men settle down. in some ways it makes men settle down. There are less wars. It's better for There are less wars. It's better for There are less wars. It's better for culture in general. All these things. culture in general. All these things. culture in general. All these things. And what I was fascinated about is kind And what I was fascinated about is kind And what I was fascinated about is kind of how she talked about it. Um and she of how she talked about it. Um and she of how she talked about it. Um and she came around to well if all of these came around to well if all of these came around to well if all of these things that the Christian religion keeps things that the Christian religion keeps things that the Christian religion keeps saying are true keep being shown to be saying are true keep being shown to be saying are true keep being shown to be true, maybe it is true. And one one one true, maybe it is true. And one one one true, maybe it is true. And one one one beauty of the secular um experiment beauty of the secular um experiment beauty of the secular um experiment running its course is it's false. And so running its course is it's false. And so running its course is it's false. And so at some point you will know at some point you will know at some point you will know >> that going for us >> that going for us >> that going for us >> by their fruits. I mean you know and and >> by their fruits. I mean you know and and >> by their fruits. I mean you know and and what's true is what's true. And so what's true is what's true. And so what's true is what's true. And so sometimes I keep thinking you know if sometimes I keep thinking you know if sometimes I keep thinking you know if you dig in to truth it just gets truer you dig in to truth it just gets truer you dig in to truth it just gets truer and more beautiful. And when you study and more beautiful. And when you study and more beautiful. And when you study scripture, you start saying, "Wow, this scripture, you start saying, "Wow, this scripture, you start saying, "Wow, this is more true than I even knew it to be is more true than I even knew it to be is more true than I even knew it to be true the first time I read it." Like true the first time I read it." Like true the first time I read it." Like going deeper actually helps you believe going deeper actually helps you believe going deeper actually helps you believe more. Whereas, you know, I think the the more. Whereas, you know, I think the the more. Whereas, you know, I think the the reality about what's false is it it will reality about what's false is it it will reality about what's false is it it will show itself. Um, and so I find that show itself. Um, and so I find that show itself. Um, and so I find that imminently hopeful across the imminently hopeful across the imminently hopeful across the generations. We're always going to find generations. We're always going to find generations. We're always going to find ourselves in different points on that ourselves in different points on that ourselves in different points on that timeline and what people are believing timeline and what people are believing timeline and what people are believing and what people are buying. But um the and what people are buying. But um the and what people are buying. But um the good news is true is true and it will good news is true is true and it will good news is true is true and it will show forth eventually.

show forth eventually. show forth eventually. >> How many how many times Melissa as a >> How many how many times Melissa as a >> How many how many times Melissa as a parent parent parent have you had to simply allow your have you had to simply allow your have you had to simply allow your children to be able to explore the children to be able to explore the children to be able to explore the alternatives. alternatives. alternatives. I mean you you want to be able to tell I mean you you want to be able to tell I mean you you want to be able to tell them don't do that. And sometimes, them don't do that. And sometimes, them don't do that. And sometimes, especially when they're younger, you can especially when they're younger, you can especially when they're younger, you can tell them not to do that and you can tell them not to do that and you can tell them not to do that and you can prevent them from doing that. The older prevent them from doing that. The older prevent them from doing that. The older they get, the harder that gets. You move they get, the harder that gets. You move they get, the harder that gets. You move into that advise and consent role um as into that advise and consent role um as into that advise and consent role um as a parent. But sometimes it is exploring a parent. But sometimes it is exploring a parent. But sometimes it is exploring the alternatives that helps you to the alternatives that helps you to the alternatives that helps you to realize what the truth was. And that realize what the truth was. And that realize what the truth was. And that truth might be my parents are not idiots truth might be my parents are not idiots truth might be my parents are not idiots and they love me. Well, that could be and they love me. Well, that could be and they love me. Well, that could be what we're seeing. what we're seeing. what we're seeing. um the experiment with secularism does um the experiment with secularism does um the experiment with secularism does not seem to as you just pointed out be not seem to as you just pointed out be not seem to as you just pointed out be bearing wonderful fruit for people. So bearing wonderful fruit for people. So bearing wonderful fruit for people. So the primary shift appears to be into the primary shift appears to be into the primary shift appears to be into what Terra Isabella Burton and others what Terra Isabella Burton and others what Terra Isabella Burton and others have written about as remixed religion have written about as remixed religion have written about as remixed religion kind of a conglomeration. and I'll grab kind of a conglomeration. and I'll grab kind of a conglomeration. and I'll grab from this and grab from that and it from this and grab from that and it from this and grab from that and it often includes forms of Christianity but often includes forms of Christianity but often includes forms of Christianity but as you said it is also leading toward as you said it is also leading toward as you said it is also leading toward actual Christianity from which church actual Christianity from which church actual Christianity from which church attendance would be one of the if not attendance would be one of the if not attendance would be one of the if not the strongest uh indicators of that. So the strongest uh indicators of that. So the strongest uh indicators of that. So yeah part of what we're seeing is the yeah part of what we're seeing is the yeah part of what we're seeing is the truth is experienced by exploring the truth is experienced by exploring the truth is experienced by exploring the other options.

other options. other options. >> Yeah. Although, you know, you said that >> Yeah. Although, you know, you said that >> Yeah. Although, you know, you said that about your kids and I'm realizing I let about your kids and I'm realizing I let about your kids and I'm realizing I let my son go to school in shorts on 32°ree my son go to school in shorts on 32°ree my son go to school in shorts on 32°ree days and I'm not sure he learned any days and I'm not sure he learned any days and I'm not sure he learned any lessons. lessons. lessons. >> I I'm thinking he's still doing that, >> I I'm thinking he's still doing that, >> I I'm thinking he's still doing that, but I'll just keep trying. but I'll just keep trying. but I'll just keep trying. >> Send shorts to school is a problem no >> Send shorts to school is a problem no >> Send shorts to school is a problem no one will ever be able to solve. one will ever be able to solve. one will ever be able to solve. >> Yeah. It's like they have internal >> Yeah. It's like they have internal >> Yeah. It's like they have internal combustion engines within them keeping combustion engines within them keeping combustion engines within them keeping them warm somehow. and hormones. them warm somehow. and hormones. them warm somehow. and hormones. >> It makes you think you're maybe wrong >> It makes you think you're maybe wrong >> It makes you think you're maybe wrong about everything else in life, but we'll about everything else in life, but we'll about everything else in life, but we'll we'll continue. We'll continue. Um, we'll continue. We'll continue. Um, we'll continue. We'll continue. Um, okay. A light topic. Penal okay. A light topic. Penal okay. A light topic. Penal substitutionary atonement. Okay. What is substitutionary atonement. Okay. What is substitutionary atonement. Okay. What is it? Why is it a hot topic this year? Um, it? Why is it a hot topic this year? Um, it? Why is it a hot topic this year? Um, and I mean, I called you about this. I and I mean, I called you about this. I and I mean, I called you about this. I was like, what are the other options, was like, what are the other options, was like, what are the other options, Colin? What are people talking about? Colin? What are people talking about? Colin? What are people talking about? That's the only option scripture puts That's the only option scripture puts That's the only option scripture puts forth. So I was but but to tell us a forth. So I was but but to tell us a forth. So I was but but to tell us a little bit more about why this little bit more about why this little bit more about why this discussion is hot right now in our discussion is hot right now in our discussion is hot right now in our culture.

culture. culture. >> Let's just let's just talk about what >> Let's just let's just talk about what >> Let's just let's just talk about what penal substitutionary atonement is. Um penal substitutionary atonement is. Um penal substitutionary atonement is. Um you have a basic idea of substitution you have a basic idea of substitution you have a basic idea of substitution and I think Christians widely agree on and I think Christians widely agree on and I think Christians widely agree on this across across communions across this across across communions across this across across communions across denominations. Christ died in our place. denominations. Christ died in our place. denominations. Christ died in our place. We deserve the death that he died for us We deserve the death that he died for us We deserve the death that he died for us for our sins. Okay, so far so good. Now for our sins. Okay, so far so good. Now for our sins. Okay, so far so good. Now you do get into a little bit more you do get into a little bit more you do get into a little bit more dispute when you talk about the penal dispute when you talk about the penal dispute when you talk about the penal element of it and that is the basically element of it and that is the basically element of it and that is the basically the terminology here is propitiation. the terminology here is propitiation. the terminology here is propitiation. You see this in places like Romans 3, You see this in places like Romans 3, You see this in places like Romans 3, you see this in John, you see this in you see this in John, you see this in you see this in John, you see this in Hebrews and then you especially see it Hebrews and then you especially see it Hebrews and then you especially see it going back to the atoning sacrifice in going back to the atoning sacrifice in going back to the atoning sacrifice in Leviticus. The idea there is that um a Leviticus. The idea there is that um a Leviticus. The idea there is that um a penalty has to be paid. Um, I mean there penalty has to be paid. Um, I mean there penalty has to be paid. Um, I mean there is there's a law and what you see in is there's a law and what you see in is there's a law and what you see in Romans 3:21-26 Romans 3:21-26 Romans 3:21-26 is this amazing juxiposition is this amazing juxiposition is this amazing juxiposition that somehow we have been set free.

that somehow we have been set free. that somehow we have been set free. We've been justified. We have been that We've been justified. We have been that We've been justified. We have been that well let's go back to the atoning well let's go back to the atoning well let's go back to the atoning sacrifice there. There are two animals. sacrifice there. There are two animals. sacrifice there. There are two animals. One animal is sent away. Um, that is the One animal is sent away. Um, that is the One animal is sent away. Um, that is the expeation. Our sin is cast out. But expeation. Our sin is cast out. But expeation. Our sin is cast out. But another animal is sacrificed is killed. another animal is sacrificed is killed. another animal is sacrificed is killed. He pays the price. Okay. So that then He pays the price. Okay. So that then He pays the price. Okay. So that then seems pretty clearly the term in in seems pretty clearly the term in in seems pretty clearly the term in in Greek is hilisterion. Greek is hilisterion. Greek is hilisterion. That seems to be pretty clear evidence That seems to be pretty clear evidence That seems to be pretty clear evidence from Leviticus through to Romans in from Leviticus through to Romans in from Leviticus through to Romans in Hebrews in John that Jesus is our Hebrews in John that Jesus is our Hebrews in John that Jesus is our atoning sacrifice. He pays the penalty atoning sacrifice. He pays the penalty atoning sacrifice. He pays the penalty for our sin. for our sin. for our sin. Um, now you get into all sorts of Um, now you get into all sorts of Um, now you get into all sorts of confusion about, okay, wait, who does he confusion about, okay, wait, who does he confusion about, okay, wait, who does he paying the penalty to? How do the father paying the penalty to? How do the father paying the penalty to? How do the father and son relate? That's where a lot of and son relate? That's where a lot of and son relate? That's where a lot of the the the disagreements will come in the the the disagreements will come in the the the disagreements will come in there. Well, where this came into view there. Well, where this came into view there. Well, where this came into view this year specifically was a very 21st this year specifically was a very 21st this year specifically was a very 21st century 2025 kind of story. Uh John Mark century 2025 kind of story. Uh John Mark century 2025 kind of story. Uh John Mark Comr is one of the most significant uh Comr is one of the most significant uh Comr is one of the most significant uh Christian writers today. One of the most Christian writers today. One of the most Christian writers today. One of the most popular. Um a lot of good things in popular. Um a lot of good things in popular. Um a lot of good things in spiritual formation and disciplehip spiritual formation and disciplehip spiritual formation and disciplehip happening through his work. Um Gen Z happening through his work. Um Gen Z happening through his work. Um Gen Z especially are really big John Mark Comr especially are really big John Mark Comr especially are really big John Mark Comr fans in general. And I think you often fans in general. And I think you often fans in general. And I think you often see generationally when one when one see generationally when one when one see generationally when one when one generation older generation uh which in generation older generation uh which in generation older generation uh which in this case would be Gen X and the this case would be Gen X and the this case would be Gen X and the millennials have rediscovered the a

millennials have rediscovered the a millennials have rediscovered the a priority on good robust biblical priority on good robust biblical priority on good robust biblical doctrine. The next generation seems to doctrine. The next generation seems to doctrine. The next generation seems to follow and say, "Yeah, but I want to follow and say, "Yeah, but I want to follow and say, "Yeah, but I want to feel it. Yeah, but I want to really feel it. Yeah, but I want to really feel it. Yeah, but I want to really experience it." Not that the previous experience it." Not that the previous experience it." Not that the previous generation didn't, but sometimes there generation didn't, but sometimes there generation didn't, but sometimes there just more of an emphasis there. And then just more of an emphasis there. And then just more of an emphasis there. And then I want to live it. I want it to really I want to live it. I want it to really I want to live it. I want it to really make a difference in my life, especially make a difference in my life, especially make a difference in my life, especially in this secular life with smartphones in this secular life with smartphones in this secular life with smartphones and everything we've been talking about and everything we've been talking about and everything we've been talking about in here, these high anxiety levels and in here, these high anxiety levels and in here, these high anxiety levels and everything. So, Comr's really struck a everything. So, Comr's really struck a everything. So, Comr's really struck a nerve there. Well, he just happens on an nerve there. Well, he just happens on an nerve there. Well, he just happens on an Instagram story to say, I just read this Instagram story to say, I just read this Instagram story to say, I just read this book about Leviticus and it's the final book about Leviticus and it's the final book about Leviticus and it's the final nail in the coffin of penal nail in the coffin of penal nail in the coffin of penal substitutionary atonement. Well, it's substitutionary atonement. Well, it's substitutionary atonement. Well, it's like somebody just hit the emergency like somebody just hit the emergency like somebody just hit the emergency button at the Gospel Coalition like, button at the Gospel Coalition like, button at the Gospel Coalition like, "Okay, here we go. "Okay, here we go. "Okay, here we go. It's game time. Uh because we do think It's game time. Uh because we do think It's game time. Uh because we do think this is a really important thing. Um I this is a really important thing. Um I this is a really important thing. Um I mean I learned all this stuff from our mean I learned all this stuff from our mean I learned all this stuff from our president and co-founder Don Carson. Um president and co-founder Don Carson. Um president and co-founder Don Carson. Um drilled me over and over and over again drilled me over and over and over again drilled me over and over and over again on Romans 3 21-26. I had to do word on Romans 3 21-26. I had to do word on Romans 3 21-26. I had to do word studies on Hillisterian. Let's say Leon studies on Hillisterian. Let's say Leon studies on Hillisterian. Let's say Leon Morris in Australia and all this sort of Morris in Australia and all this sort of Morris in Australia and all this sort of stuff. uh Tim Keller, this is pretty stuff. uh Tim Keller, this is pretty stuff. uh Tim Keller, this is pretty much, you know, the the climax of Tim much, you know, the the climax of Tim much, you know, the the climax of Tim Keller's preaching was always, you know, Keller's preaching was always, you know, Keller's preaching was always, you know, the penalty that Christ paid, his the penalty that Christ paid, his the penalty that Christ paid, his substitution, and this is very common in substitution, and this is very common in substitution, and this is very common in reformed circles. So, for somebody to reformed circles. So, for somebody to reformed circles. So, for somebody to say, "All right, all the debates have say, "All right, all the debates have say, "All right, all the debates have been settled by this new book." Um, been settled by this new book." Um, been settled by this new book." Um, well, of course, you're going to get a well, of course, you're going to get a well, of course, you're going to get a lot of responses and a lot of reviews at

lot of responses and a lot of reviews at lot of responses and a lot of reviews at TGC and elsewhere about that book. I TGC and elsewhere about that book. I TGC and elsewhere about that book. I think it's safe to say it did not put think it's safe to say it did not put think it's safe to say it did not put the final nail in the coffin of penal the final nail in the coffin of penal the final nail in the coffin of penal substitutionary atonement. But as you substitutionary atonement. But as you substitutionary atonement. But as you mentioned and asked about Melissa, it mentioned and asked about Melissa, it mentioned and asked about Melissa, it does raise the question of what are the does raise the question of what are the does raise the question of what are the alternatives. alternatives. alternatives. And the person who explained this most And the person who explained this most And the person who explained this most effectively uh to me was was JI Packer. effectively uh to me was was JI Packer. effectively uh to me was was JI Packer. Uh uh Dr. Packer and I used to work Uh uh Dr. Packer and I used to work Uh uh Dr. Packer and I used to work together at Christianity Today. We'd together at Christianity Today. We'd together at Christianity Today. We'd have a lot of lot of meetings and talks have a lot of lot of meetings and talks have a lot of lot of meetings and talks together over meals and things like together over meals and things like together over meals and things like that. Not to mention just reading his that. Not to mention just reading his that. Not to mention just reading his books and I remember even the exact books and I remember even the exact books and I remember even the exact restaurant, the exact booth where I restaurant, the exact booth where I restaurant, the exact booth where I talked to him as a young editor about talked to him as a young editor about talked to him as a young editor about about this question and he said, you about this question and he said, you about this question and he said, you know, of course the other know, of course the other know, of course the other functions or purposes or models people functions or purposes or models people functions or purposes or models people might say about the atonement are also might say about the atonement are also might say about the atonement are also valid that Christ I mean or just of the valid that Christ I mean or just of the valid that Christ I mean or just of the what did Christ accomplish for us? Well, what did Christ accomplish for us? Well, what did Christ accomplish for us? Well, he set an example for us. Okay, that he set an example for us. Okay, that he set an example for us. Okay, that goes back to Peter Labalard and others. goes back to Peter Labalard and others. goes back to Peter Labalard and others. There's biblical examples of this and There's biblical examples of this and There's biblical examples of this and this is where John Mark Comr focuses on this is where John Mark Comr focuses on this is where John Mark Comr focuses on what Christ how he sets an example that what Christ how he sets an example that what Christ how he sets an example that we are intended to follow. Then you can we are intended to follow. Then you can we are intended to follow. Then you can look at things like Christus Victor look at things like Christus Victor look at things like Christus Victor Gustaval and others. He's triumphed over Gustaval and others. He's triumphed over Gustaval and others. He's triumphed over the principalities and powers the evil the principalities and powers the evil the principalities and powers the evil spirits also important. That's in the spirits also important. That's in the spirits also important. That's in the Bible too. But people often want to pit Bible too. But people often want to pit Bible too. But people often want to pit them against penal substitution as them against penal substitution as them against penal substitution as alternatives or um or or as you know as alternatives or um or or as you know as alternatives or um or or as you know as alternatives or that are better or more alternatives or that are better or more alternatives or that are better or more important or just making penal important or just making penal important or just making penal substitution invalid. But the way Packer

substitution invalid. But the way Packer substitution invalid. But the way Packer talked about it was this is really the talked about it was this is really the talked about it was this is really the the pinnacle. the pinnacle. the pinnacle. Every other function of the atonement Every other function of the atonement Every other function of the atonement makes sense when you have the penal makes sense when you have the penal makes sense when you have the penal substitutionary element locked in place. substitutionary element locked in place. substitutionary element locked in place. What did Christ accomplish on the cross? What did Christ accomplish on the cross? What did Christ accomplish on the cross? What did he do? What happened? What What did he do? What happened? What What did he do? What happened? What difference? Why did he have to die? difference? Why did he have to die? difference? Why did he have to die? >> That's a question that especially not >> That's a question that especially not >> That's a question that especially not answered very well by the exemplary answered very well by the exemplary answered very well by the exemplary theory of the atonement. Well, setting theory of the atonement. Well, setting theory of the atonement. Well, setting now the example could be well he just now the example could be well he just now the example could be well he just you know sacrifices himself by you know you know sacrifices himself by you know you know sacrifices himself by you know not not being you know not taking up not not being you know not taking up not not being you know not taking up arms and things like that. That's what arms and things like that. That's what arms and things like that. That's what why pacifists are often drawn to that why pacifists are often drawn to that why pacifists are often drawn to that approach. Um, but once you have that in approach. Um, but once you have that in approach. Um, but once you have that in place and it's just theologically it place and it's just theologically it place and it's just theologically it connects the covenants, connects old and connects the covenants, connects old and connects the covenants, connects old and new testament, connects the different new testament, connects the different new testament, connects the different writers of scripture together, it writers of scripture together, it writers of scripture together, it answers all these questions. Why did he answers all these questions. Why did he answers all these questions. Why did he have to die? Why did he die in this have to die? Why did he die in this have to die? Why did he die in this place? What was happening in the temple? place? What was happening in the temple? place? What was happening in the temple? You know, why did the temple curtain be You know, why did the temple curtain be You know, why did the temple curtain be torn into? I mean, why is he the the torn into? I mean, why is he the the torn into? I mean, why is he the the lamb of God who was slain? Why is he lamb of God who was slain? Why is he lamb of God who was slain? Why is he introduced by his cousin John as the introduced by his cousin John as the introduced by his cousin John as the lamb of God? Well, I mean, all these lamb of God? Well, I mean, all these lamb of God? Well, I mean, all these questions only make sense or it can only questions only make sense or it can only questions only make sense or it can only be answered through penal substitution.

be answered through penal substitution. be answered through penal substitution. That's why it's a big deal. Um, but it's That's why it's a big deal. Um, but it's That's why it's a big deal. Um, but it's not to dismiss any other dimensions to not to dismiss any other dimensions to not to dismiss any other dimensions to it. But yes, that I I think Melissa, we it. But yes, that I I think Melissa, we it. But yes, that I I think Melissa, we could probably rotate over the years could probably rotate over the years could probably rotate over the years between biblical inherency, between biblical inherency, between biblical inherency, justification by faith alone, penal justification by faith alone, penal justification by faith alone, penal substitutionary atonement. We'll be substitutionary atonement. We'll be substitutionary atonement. We'll be doing this years, you know, years in the doing this years, you know, years in the doing this years, you know, years in the future and we'll be probably having the future and we'll be probably having the future and we'll be probably having the same conversations because they tend to same conversations because they tend to same conversations because they tend to come back around and this was the year come back around and this was the year come back around and this was the year with atonement. with atonement. with atonement. >> Yeah. And and and maybe I mean because I >> Yeah. And and and maybe I mean because I >> Yeah. And and and maybe I mean because I do think what you're seeing is true. do think what you're seeing is true. do think what you're seeing is true. What I see in some college students What I see in some college students What I see in some college students right now is a high value of practice of right now is a high value of practice of right now is a high value of practice of faith. Um but you're right, they're not faith. Um but you're right, they're not faith. Um but you're right, they're not having the same doctrinal conversations having the same doctrinal conversations having the same doctrinal conversations I was having in college. Like I remember I was having in college. Like I remember I was having in college. Like I remember late night conversations on the late night conversations on the late night conversations on the sovereignty of God, sovereignty of God, sovereignty of God, are we all robots and you know all these are we all robots and you know all these are we all robots and you know all these things that I'm not sure they're having things that I'm not sure they're having things that I'm not sure they're having quite as much but they are talking a lot quite as much but they are talking a lot quite as much but they are talking a lot about the practice of faith and that we about the practice of faith and that we about the practice of faith and that we you know we think both like what Paul you know we think both like what Paul you know we think both like what Paul said to Timothy watch your life and said to Timothy watch your life and said to Timothy watch your life and doctrine closely both are close and doctrine closely both are close and doctrine closely both are close and we're always correcting. So in some ways we're always correcting. So in some ways we're always correcting. So in some ways these debates coming up I think can be these debates coming up I think can be these debates coming up I think can be really good things to make people think really good things to make people think really good things to make people think because in my head what keeps coming to because in my head what keeps coming to because in my head what keeps coming to mind is without the shedding of blood mind is without the shedding of blood mind is without the shedding of blood there's no forgiveness of sins like so there's no forgiveness of sins like so there's no forgiveness of sins like so how do you answer that question and and how do you answer that question and and how do you answer that question and and so hopefully it will drive young people so hopefully it will drive young people so hopefully it will drive young people back to the Bible and make them say hold back to the Bible and make them say hold back to the Bible and make them say hold on how what what is this about and on how what what is this about and on how what what is this about and that's the goal of these conversations

that's the goal of these conversations that's the goal of these conversations right to get us right to get us right to get us >> back back into God's word >> back back into God's word >> back back into God's word >> well let me ask you a question about the >> well let me ask you a question about the >> well let me ask you a question about the the challenges of reading the Bible the challenges of reading the Bible the challenges of reading the Bible primarily for what should I do about primarily for what should I do about primarily for what should I do about this? What do you do with Leviticus? this? What do you do with Leviticus? this? What do you do with Leviticus? >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> Yeah, that makes sense. >> I mean, you you've got to read it >> I mean, you you've got to read it >> I mean, you you've got to read it covenantally. You you need to understand covenantally. You you need to understand covenantally. You you need to understand what has been accomplished and how the what has been accomplished and how the what has been accomplished and how the covenants fit together, how they develop covenants fit together, how they develop covenants fit together, how they develop over time and then ultimately how they over time and then ultimately how they over time and then ultimately how they lead to and point toward the finished lead to and point toward the finished lead to and point toward the finished work of Christ, not what we do in work of Christ, not what we do in work of Christ, not what we do in imitation of him or in thankfulness or imitation of him or in thankfulness or imitation of him or in thankfulness or in obedience to him, but what he has in obedience to him, but what he has in obedience to him, but what he has done for us that we can never do for done for us that we can never do for done for us that we can never do for ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. >> And it's a declaration at some point. I >> And it's a declaration at some point. I >> And it's a declaration at some point. I because I was reading Leviticus one time because I was reading Leviticus one time because I was reading Leviticus one time in my Bible in the year and I was in my Bible in the year and I was in my Bible in the year and I was preparing for a talk in John and so I'm preparing for a talk in John and so I'm preparing for a talk in John and so I'm in Leviticus and man everything makes in Leviticus and man everything makes in Leviticus and man everything makes you unclean and I'm feeling exhausted by you unclean and I'm feeling exhausted by you unclean and I'm feeling exhausted by it. You're unclean. You're unclean. I'm it. You're unclean. You're unclean. I'm it. You're unclean. You're unclean. I'm like I got it already. And then I'm like I got it already. And then I'm like I got it already. And then I'm reading John and Jesus says the words reading John and Jesus says the words reading John and Jesus says the words you're already clean because the word you're already clean because the word you're already clean because the word I've spoken to you. Yeah. It's this I've spoken to you. Yeah. It's this I've spoken to you. Yeah. It's this declaration to his disciples. And you're declaration to his disciples. And you're declaration to his disciples. And you're sitting there thinking, "Oh, wow. Now sitting there thinking, "Oh, wow. Now sitting there thinking, "Oh, wow. Now this takes on a whole new, you know, this takes on a whole new, you know, this takes on a whole new, you know, light bulb moment because I've been light bulb moment because I've been light bulb moment because I've been rooted in Leviticus and I've been rooted in Leviticus and I've been rooted in Leviticus and I've been sitting here hearing how many ways I can sitting here hearing how many ways I can sitting here hearing how many ways I can be unclean and now Jesus can declare you be unclean and now Jesus can declare you be unclean and now Jesus can declare you clean." Yeah. Well, how's he going to be clean." Yeah. Well, how's he going to be clean." Yeah. Well, how's he going to be able to do that? Oh, because he's going able to do that? Oh, because he's going able to do that? Oh, because he's going to pay the penalty and be able to make to pay the penalty and be able to make to pay the penalty and be able to make us clean. You know, all the things that us clean. You know, all the things that us clean. You know, all the things that that are later going to be shown in the that are later going to be shown in the that are later going to be shown in the >> go power for us to obey.

>> go power for us to obey. >> go power for us to obey. >> Exactly. united with Christ, sealed by >> Exactly. united with Christ, sealed by >> Exactly. united with Christ, sealed by the spirit in grateful obedience for the spirit in grateful obedience for the spirit in grateful obedience for what he's done for us, that's how you what he's done for us, that's how you what he's done for us, that's how you obey him. obey him. obey him. >> Yeah. And it's the root of humility, >> Yeah. And it's the root of humility, >> Yeah. And it's the root of humility, right? I mean, if all the exemplar is right? I mean, if all the exemplar is right? I mean, if all the exemplar is like, well, I could say to you, Colin, like, well, I could say to you, Colin, like, well, I could say to you, Colin, I'm a better example of following Jesus I'm a better example of following Jesus I'm a better example of following Jesus than you, right? You whereas whereas than you, right? You whereas whereas than you, right? You whereas whereas with this, it's no, it's just a gift. with this, it's no, it's just a gift. with this, it's no, it's just a gift. And so, you really do get into the most And so, you really do get into the most And so, you really do get into the most humbling aspect of this is you can't do humbling aspect of this is you can't do humbling aspect of this is you can't do it for yourself. It's a gift of faith, it for yourself. It's a gift of faith, it for yourself. It's a gift of faith, not by works, so no one can boast. Um not by works, so no one can boast. Um not by works, so no one can boast. Um and so it's that's why it's good news. and so it's that's why it's good news. and so it's that's why it's good news. But anyway, it's But anyway, it's But anyway, it's >> as we the these discussions have real >> as we the these discussions have real >> as we the these discussions have real have real impact in our lives, I think, have real impact in our lives, I think, have real impact in our lives, I think, as we live them. Um okay, another thing as we live them. Um okay, another thing as we live them. Um okay, another thing that is sneaking into our lives on a that is sneaking into our lives on a that is sneaking into our lives on a daily basis is this thing called AI. Um daily basis is this thing called AI. Um daily basis is this thing called AI. Um which you know has some really good which you know has some really good which you know has some really good points. I told you, you know, um my mom points. I told you, you know, um my mom points. I told you, you know, um my mom was sick recently and uh we were in the was sick recently and uh we were in the was sick recently and uh we were in the hospital a lot and my brother was hospital a lot and my brother was hospital a lot and my brother was putting all of the doctor's notes daily putting all of the doctor's notes daily putting all of the doctor's notes daily through chat GPT saying what questions through chat GPT saying what questions through chat GPT saying what questions should we ask? So there we we we should we ask? So there we we we should we ask? So there we we we acknowledge there are good things about acknowledge there are good things about acknowledge there are good things about AI. Um tell us a little bit about the AI. Um tell us a little bit about the AI. Um tell us a little bit about the influence on how it's how it's affecting influence on how it's how it's affecting influence on how it's how it's affecting the church spirituality. Why is this a the church spirituality. Why is this a the church spirituality. Why is this a theological story and not just a news theological story and not just a news theological story and not just a news story? And this is one, Melissa, that story? And this is one, Melissa, that story? And this is one, Melissa, that when we look back on this when we look back on this when we look back on this probably will be the most significant probably will be the most significant probably will be the most significant thing that happened this year and might thing that happened this year and might thing that happened this year and might be one of the most significant things

be one of the most significant things be one of the most significant things that happened at all in the last 25 that happened at all in the last 25 that happened at all in the last 25 years or even longer ago. It does seem years or even longer ago. It does seem years or even longer ago. It does seem like this was the year when generative like this was the year when generative like this was the year when generative AI really came to the forefront in AI really came to the forefront in AI really came to the forefront in popular usage. Um, it ma made it also popular usage. Um, it ma made it also popular usage. Um, it ma made it also became more difficult to avoid. If you became more difficult to avoid. If you became more difficult to avoid. If you were trying to avoid it, well, good luck were trying to avoid it, well, good luck were trying to avoid it, well, good luck with that on Google. Now, this is this with that on Google. Now, this is this with that on Google. Now, this is this is how I mean most people are accessing is how I mean most people are accessing is how I mean most people are accessing information through that search platform information through that search platform information through that search platform and it's transforming the way people are and it's transforming the way people are and it's transforming the way people are therefore accessing theological therefore accessing theological therefore accessing theological information including places like the information including places like the information including places like the Gospel Coalition's website. So, one way Gospel Coalition's website. So, one way Gospel Coalition's website. So, one way that it's simply theologically that it's simply theologically that it's simply theologically significant is in things like, well, can significant is in things like, well, can significant is in things like, well, can we trust, can we rely on AI to give us we trust, can we rely on AI to give us we trust, can we rely on AI to give us good biblical, orthodox, historical good biblical, orthodox, historical good biblical, orthodox, historical answers to theological questions. That's answers to theological questions. That's answers to theological questions. That's why Mike Graham for TGC and the Keller why Mike Graham for TGC and the Keller why Mike Graham for TGC and the Keller Center this year did the AI Christian Center this year did the AI Christian Center this year did the AI Christian benchmark and we found benchmark and we found benchmark and we found uh not so good. uh not so good. uh not so good. Now, people are learning prompting with Now, people are learning prompting with Now, people are learning prompting with AI that the more information you give AI that the more information you give AI that the more information you give AI, the better answers it gives you AI, the better answers it gives you AI, the better answers it gives you back. So, you could say, I subscribe to back. So, you could say, I subscribe to back. So, you could say, I subscribe to the Gospel Coalition's uh foundation the Gospel Coalition's uh foundation the Gospel Coalition's uh foundation documents. Tell me, what is the documents. Tell me, what is the documents. Tell me, what is the significance of penal substitutionary significance of penal substitutionary significance of penal substitutionary atonement? You'll actually get a pretty atonement? You'll actually get a pretty atonement? You'll actually get a pretty good answer from that. But if you said good answer from that. But if you said good answer from that. But if you said something like, and just imagine a something like, and just imagine a something like, and just imagine a 16-year-old out there who hasn't grown 16-year-old out there who hasn't grown 16-year-old out there who hasn't grown up in the church, and you say something up in the church, and you say something up in the church, and you say something like, "Why did Jesus have to die?"

like, "Why did Jesus have to die?" like, "Why did Jesus have to die?" >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, not very reliable answers. In part, what not very reliable answers. In part, what not very reliable answers. In part, what we're seeing is alignment from we're seeing is alignment from we're seeing is alignment from especially Americanbased AI to be able especially Americanbased AI to be able especially Americanbased AI to be able to say, "Hey, that's not something we to say, "Hey, that's not something we to say, "Hey, that's not something we get into." And keep in mind, AI does get into." And keep in mind, AI does get into." And keep in mind, AI does this on lots of different things. Human this on lots of different things. Human this on lots of different things. Human programmers, ethicists need to be able programmers, ethicists need to be able programmers, ethicists need to be able to say, "Okay, if I type in how to build to say, "Okay, if I type in how to build to say, "Okay, if I type in how to build a bomb to destroy my, you know, local a bomb to destroy my, you know, local a bomb to destroy my, you know, local school. AI is not supposed to give you school. AI is not supposed to give you school. AI is not supposed to give you an answer to be able to do that." Okay, an answer to be able to do that." Okay, an answer to be able to do that." Okay, that's alignment. We don't want it to do that's alignment. We don't want it to do that's alignment. We don't want it to do that. Um, we don't want it to give you that. Um, we don't want it to give you that. Um, we don't want it to give you advice on the best way to commit advice on the best way to commit advice on the best way to commit suicide. These are real things that have suicide. These are real things that have suicide. These are real things that have happened. We don't want that. That's happened. We don't want that. That's happened. We don't want that. That's alignment. Well, that alignment then alignment. Well, that alignment then alignment. Well, that alignment then comes to questions of how do we answer comes to questions of how do we answer comes to questions of how do we answer these questions? Because of course, these questions? Because of course, these questions? Because of course, different denominations might disagree. different denominations might disagree. different denominations might disagree. Certain different religions might Certain different religions might Certain different religions might disagree about these things. So, how do disagree about these things. So, how do disagree about these things. So, how do you align it? Well, what a lot of the you align it? Well, what a lot of the you align it? Well, what a lot of the different groups, especially in the different groups, especially in the different groups, especially in the United States, places like Meta, United States, places like Meta, United States, places like Meta, Facebook and and X, which includes, you Facebook and and X, which includes, you Facebook and and X, which includes, you know, formerly Twitter, their Gro know, formerly Twitter, their Gro know, formerly Twitter, their Gro system, um they'll just sort of plead system, um they'll just sort of plead system, um they'll just sort of plead the fifth. they'll just sort of say, the fifth. they'll just sort of say, the fifth. they'll just sort of say, "Ah, you know, that's that's not really "Ah, you know, that's that's not really "Ah, you know, that's that's not really my terrain in there." What this the my terrain in there." What this the my terrain in there." What this the theological consequences there are theological consequences there are theological consequences there are related to epistemology.

related to epistemology. related to epistemology. In the Enlightenment, we've had this In the Enlightenment, we've had this In the Enlightenment, we've had this problem all along of the fact value problem all along of the fact value problem all along of the fact value distinction. That religion belongs to distinction. That religion belongs to distinction. That religion belongs to values. There are things that you feel values. There are things that you feel values. There are things that you feel but not facts. Things that are but not facts. Things that are but not facts. Things that are objectively true. that's created this objectively true. that's created this objectively true. that's created this idea that religion is something that idea that religion is something that idea that religion is something that happens inside your heart, but it's not happens inside your heart, but it's not happens inside your heart, but it's not something that has public consequence. something that has public consequence. something that has public consequence. It's not something in the realm of It's not something in the realm of It's not something in the realm of history. Well, the major concern we have history. Well, the major concern we have history. Well, the major concern we have is what if AI pushes religion further is what if AI pushes religion further is what if AI pushes religion further into that category? It's a value. Who into that category? It's a value. Who into that category? It's a value. Who can know these things really because can know these things really because can know these things really because people disagree about them? That's what people disagree about them? That's what people disagree about them? That's what we're trying to avoid. The other we're trying to avoid. The other we're trying to avoid. The other question though, Melissa, and I wonder question though, Melissa, and I wonder question though, Melissa, and I wonder where you where you see this playing where you where you see this playing where you where you see this playing out, is the theological question of out, is the theological question of out, is the theological question of anthropology. anthropology. anthropology. Why do we exist? Why do we exist? Why do we exist? Um, I saw I saw somebody comment Um, I saw I saw somebody comment Um, I saw I saw somebody comment recently that the computers have gotten recently that the computers have gotten recently that the computers have gotten really good at programming the humans. really good at programming the humans. really good at programming the humans. >> We talk about this all the time. We're >> We talk about this all the time. We're >> We talk about this all the time. We're the ones who are programming. But the ones who are programming. But the ones who are programming. But really, really, really, the more use we do of computer, more use the more use we do of computer, more use the more use we do of computer, more use we see, the bigger role that computers we see, the bigger role that computers we see, the bigger role that computers play in our lives, play in our lives, play in our lives, are they are we making them more human are they are we making them more human are they are we making them more human or are they making us more like or are they making us more like or are they making us more like computers?

computers? computers? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> that's a big question. What is >> that's a big question. What is >> that's a big question. What is distinctive about us as distinctive about us as distinctive about us as humans humans humans that we are not inferior that we are not inferior that we are not inferior um operating systems? Mhm. Well, and um operating systems? Mhm. Well, and um operating systems? Mhm. Well, and information, information, information, when I think about this, information when I think about this, information when I think about this, information used to always come through the conduit used to always come through the conduit used to always come through the conduit of relationship. You learned through a of relationship. You learned through a of relationship. You learned through a teacher. You learned from a pastor. You teacher. You learned from a pastor. You teacher. You learned from a pastor. You you you learned even a recipe from your you you learned even a recipe from your you you learned even a recipe from your mother, you know? I mean like you you mother, you know? I mean like you you mother, you know? I mean like you you were passing down things from generation were passing down things from generation were passing down things from generation to generation and now to generation and now to generation and now that that's being broken in a lot of that that's being broken in a lot of that that's being broken in a lot of ways because it's a lot faster to go to ways because it's a lot faster to go to ways because it's a lot faster to go to chat GPT or whatever you're using that's chat GPT or whatever you're using that's chat GPT or whatever you're using that's probably archaic by now probably old you probably archaic by now probably old you probably archaic by now probably old you know way people still use it still going know way people still use it still going know way people still use it still going >> it is just interesting you know you used >> it is just interesting you know you used >> it is just interesting you know you used to have to call a friend who was a to have to call a friend who was a to have to call a friend who was a doctor and say hey what questions should doctor and say hey what questions should doctor and say hey what questions should I be asking so look I mean there's some I be asking so look I mean there's some I be asking so look I mean there's some efficiencies here that are helpful um in efficiencies here that are helpful um in efficiencies here that are helpful um in the moment, but I do think we have to we the moment, but I do think we have to we the moment, but I do think we have to we have to slow down and say what's being have to slow down and say what's being have to slow down and say what's being lost. We always look at what's being lost. We always look at what's being lost. We always look at what's being gained. Um and it it is really different gained. Um and it it is really different gained. Um and it it is really different to learn your theology from someone who to learn your theology from someone who to learn your theology from someone who you can watch their life rather than you can watch their life rather than you can watch their life rather than just somebody you're typing something just somebody you're typing something just somebody you're typing something into. Even even well um nuanced, you into. Even even well um nuanced, you into. Even even well um nuanced, you know, if you said, "Oh, I'd like the know, if you said, "Oh, I'd like the know, if you said, "Oh, I'd like the reformed perspective on this topic."

reformed perspective on this topic." reformed perspective on this topic." you're going to get a pretty good you're going to get a pretty good you're going to get a pretty good answer, but maybe it would be better answer, but maybe it would be better answer, but maybe it would be better over coffee with an older gentleman in over coffee with an older gentleman in over coffee with an older gentleman in your church who's walked a lot of life your church who's walked a lot of life your church who's walked a lot of life and might be able to push into things and might be able to push into things and might be able to push into things you don't even know you need pushing in you don't even know you need pushing in you don't even know you need pushing in on because we believe the spirit's alive on because we believe the spirit's alive on because we believe the spirit's alive and working in these conversations and and working in these conversations and and working in these conversations and where two or more are gathered that the where two or more are gathered that the where two or more are gathered that the spirit's with them, you know, and so I I spirit's with them, you know, and so I I spirit's with them, you know, and so I I I think there are things being lost I think there are things being lost I think there are things being lost maybe in our ease to get information maybe in our ease to get information maybe in our ease to get information because I I think we society maybe because I I think we society maybe because I I think we society maybe sometimes think too much what we need is sometimes think too much what we need is sometimes think too much what we need is knowledge. knowledge whereas we've lost knowledge. knowledge whereas we've lost knowledge. knowledge whereas we've lost the pursuit of wisdom perhaps. I don't the pursuit of wisdom perhaps. I don't the pursuit of wisdom perhaps. I don't know. Yeah. I mean it's it's a question. know. Yeah. I mean it's it's a question. know. Yeah. I mean it's it's a question. AI can give knowledge but I'm not sure AI can give knowledge but I'm not sure AI can give knowledge but I'm not sure it can give wisdom. it can give wisdom. it can give wisdom. >> Yeah. Or or at least >> Yeah. Or or at least >> Yeah. Or or at least wisdom is embodied certainly in Christ wisdom is embodied certainly in Christ wisdom is embodied certainly in Christ himself but also in his body and then himself but also in his body and then himself but also in his body and then through the spirit. It's not that the through the spirit. It's not that the through the spirit. It's not that the spirit can't work through AI to give you spirit can't work through AI to give you spirit can't work through AI to give you some of that direction, but we some of that direction, but we some of that direction, but we understand what categories we ought to understand what categories we ought to understand what categories we ought to be searching for that wisdom. I saw, I be searching for that wisdom. I saw, I be searching for that wisdom. I saw, I think it was a New Yorker column that think it was a New Yorker column that think it was a New Yorker column that said, "I'm so glad to be done working said, "I'm so glad to be done working said, "I'm so glad to be done working with screens all day so that I can rest with screens all day so that I can rest with screens all day so that I can rest by sitting in front of screens all by sitting in front of screens all by sitting in front of screens all night."

>> So true. >> So true. >> Yeah, it's very it's very true. We are >> Yeah, it's very it's very true. We are >> Yeah, it's very it's very true. We are getting better and better and better at getting better and better and better at getting better and better and better at finding new ways to not need each other. finding new ways to not need each other. finding new ways to not need each other. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And to a certain extent, that is just >> And to a certain extent, that is just >> And to a certain extent, that is just the way technology functions. It's the the way technology functions. It's the the way technology functions. It's the way the world has functioned. We're way the world has functioned. We're way the world has functioned. We're always looking for efficiencies. always looking for efficiencies. always looking for efficiencies. That goes all the way back to the wheel. That goes all the way back to the wheel. That goes all the way back to the wheel. Goes I mean there are lots of examples Goes I mean there are lots of examples Goes I mean there are lots of examples here. And so it would be foolish to say here. And so it would be foolish to say here. And so it would be foolish to say that we shouldn't continue to look for that we shouldn't continue to look for that we shouldn't continue to look for those things. But you really hit the those things. But you really hit the those things. But you really hit the wisdom or you brought the wisdom there, wisdom or you brought the wisdom there, wisdom or you brought the wisdom there, Melissa, to say we always have to Melissa, to say we always have to Melissa, to say we always have to consider when using that technology. consider when using that technology. consider when using that technology. What is it? We know what is adding. What What is it? We know what is adding. What What is it? We know what is adding. What is it taking away at the same time? And is it taking away at the same time? And is it taking away at the same time? And if you're you're in a situation if you're you're in a situation if you're you're in a situation thinking, I could call thinking, I could call thinking, I could call my mother to be able to ask for her help my mother to be able to ask for her help my mother to be able to ask for her help on this, or I could just punch it into on this, or I could just punch it into on this, or I could just punch it into chat GPT.

chat GPT. chat GPT. Um, I mean, we'll just make a very Um, I mean, we'll just make a very Um, I mean, we'll just make a very practical example. My dad is probably practical example. My dad is probably practical example. My dad is probably the handiest person you will ever meet, the handiest person you will ever meet, the handiest person you will ever meet, and I am and I am and I am his son somehow. I I can he is very helpful in talking me I I can he is very helpful in talking me through things. He's also very helpful through things. He's also very helpful through things. He's also very helpful when he shows up and he does them when he shows up and he does them when he shows up and he does them himself or guides me through them. And himself or guides me through them. And himself or guides me through them. And that's a primary way that I have a that's a primary way that I have a that's a primary way that I have a relationship with him and that I relationship with him and that I relationship with him and that I appreciate him and that I experience him appreciate him and that I experience him appreciate him and that I experience him as a father who the things that I'm good as a father who the things that I'm good as a father who the things that I'm good at he's not that good at and vice versa. at he's not that good at and vice versa. at he's not that good at and vice versa. It's the way we have that relationship. It's the way we have that relationship. It's the way we have that relationship. However, between YouTube and chat GPT, However, between YouTube and chat GPT, However, between YouTube and chat GPT, I mean, probably have a lot more I mean, probably have a lot more I mean, probably have a lot more efficient ways of finding these things efficient ways of finding these things efficient ways of finding these things out myself. So, you kind of got to go out myself. So, you kind of got to go out myself. So, you kind of got to go out of your way to do that. But that out of your way to do that. But that out of your way to do that. But that goes back to the anthropology question.

goes back to the anthropology question. goes back to the anthropology question. Are we designed to not need other Are we designed to not need other Are we designed to not need other people? people? people? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, that seems to be an illusion >> I mean, that seems to be an illusion >> I mean, that seems to be an illusion because at some point we all do, whether because at some point we all do, whether because at some point we all do, whether we want to or not. So that actually we want to or not. So that actually we want to or not. So that actually seems to be leading us in some ways seems to be leading us in some ways seems to be leading us in some ways potentially away from potentially away from potentially away from truth and wisdom to say yeah my life is truth and wisdom to say yeah my life is truth and wisdom to say yeah my life is about creating efficiencies so I can and about creating efficiencies so I can and about creating efficiencies so I can and then the then the question becomes then the then the question becomes then the then the question becomes so I can what? so I can what? so I can what? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So I can spend more time watching >> So I can spend more time watching >> So I can spend more time watching screens. screens. screens. Hey Melissa, what if we increase the Hey Melissa, what if we increase the Hey Melissa, what if we increase the efficiency of AI just making all the efficiency of AI just making all the efficiency of AI just making all the stuff that we put on our screens too? So stuff that we put on our screens too? So stuff that we put on our screens too? So it's perfect. AI will do our work so it's perfect. AI will do our work so it's perfect. AI will do our work so we'll have more time so we can watch AI we'll have more time so we can watch AI we'll have more time so we can watch AI movies and listen to AI music. movies and listen to AI music. movies and listen to AI music. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Somebody this doesn't make sense, right? >> Somebody this doesn't make sense, right? >> Somebody this doesn't make sense, right? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> What's the point of living? Why are we >> What's the point of living? Why are we >> What's the point of living? Why are we here? here? here? >> That's why anthropology questions. Well, >> That's why anthropology questions. Well, >> That's why anthropology questions. Well, and this is where at times I mean th and this is where at times I mean th and this is where at times I mean th this is where if technology is neutral, this is where if technology is neutral, this is where if technology is neutral, if we'll give it that, it can be used if we'll give it that, it can be used if we'll give it that, it can be used for great ill in entertaining us so that for great ill in entertaining us so that for great ill in entertaining us so that we never have to think about the big we never have to think about the big we never have to think about the big questions of life or it can be used, you questions of life or it can be used, you questions of life or it can be used, you know, to help me like today as I was know, to help me like today as I was know, to help me like today as I was driving, I was listening Jackie Hill driving, I was listening Jackie Hill driving, I was listening Jackie Hill Perry was reading to me for Timothy from Perry was reading to me for Timothy from Perry was reading to me for Timothy from the Crossway app, you know. So, there the Crossway app, you know. So, there the Crossway app, you know. So, there are some really good uses of these these are some really good uses of these these are some really good uses of these these technologies. I think the reality is, technologies. I think the reality is, technologies. I think the reality is, and here's what I always want to say, and here's what I always want to say, and here's what I always want to say, because true is true, which is what we because true is true, which is what we because true is true, which is what we said before, the good news of what the said before, the good news of what the said before, the good news of what the Bible tells us to do. If we just

Bible tells us to do. If we just Bible tells us to do. If we just continually walk in its statutes, it continually walk in its statutes, it continually walk in its statutes, it means we're in church because the Bible means we're in church because the Bible means we're in church because the Bible tells us don't give up the habit of tells us don't give up the habit of tells us don't give up the habit of meeting with one another. So, what I meeting with one another. So, what I meeting with one another. So, what I always say is we can't know what the new always say is we can't know what the new always say is we can't know what the new thing will be like AI or whatever thing will be like AI or whatever thing will be like AI or whatever technology, but I always know what the technology, but I always know what the technology, but I always know what the answer is. The answer is to walk in the answer is. The answer is to walk in the answer is. The answer is to walk in the wisdom that's been given because it's wisdom that's been given because it's wisdom that's been given because it's revealed wisdom. It's not from a person. revealed wisdom. It's not from a person. revealed wisdom. It's not from a person. It's through the spirit. It's God It's through the spirit. It's God It's through the spirit. It's God breathed wisdom given to us. And I I can breathed wisdom given to us. And I I can breathed wisdom given to us. And I I can say, you know, walked with the Lord now, say, you know, walked with the Lord now, say, you know, walked with the Lord now, oh goodness, I don't know how many oh goodness, I don't know how many oh goodness, I don't know how many years. And what's true has been proven years. And what's true has been proven years. And what's true has been proven true, you know, um and I'm more I more true, you know, um and I'm more I more true, you know, um and I'm more I more believe it today that I can like all believe it today that I can like all believe it today that I can like all these things that come at us um that these things that come at us um that these things that come at us um that maybe seem like threats. I I do think maybe seem like threats. I I do think maybe seem like threats. I I do think the Bible walking in that way is always the Bible walking in that way is always the Bible walking in that way is always the protectant to the emergent threat the protectant to the emergent threat the protectant to the emergent threat that's coming. Um and and we can hold that's coming. Um and and we can hold that's coming. Um and and we can hold fast to that and be hopeful in that. And fast to that and be hopeful in that. And fast to that and be hopeful in that. And I that that's I say that a lot about I that that's I say that a lot about I that that's I say that a lot about parenting, but I think it's true about parenting, but I think it's true about parenting, but I think it's true about all things in life. Um because we get all things in life. Um because we get all things in life. Um because we get back to what's true is true. Um well, we back to what's true is true. Um well, we back to what's true is true. Um well, we are as always taking much too long. So, are as always taking much too long. So, are as always taking much too long. So, I'm sorry about that, but we can't not I'm sorry about that, but we can't not I'm sorry about that, but we can't not talk about one of the your biggest talk about one of the your biggest talk about one of the your biggest theological story of this year was just theological story of this year was just theological story of this year was just Charlie Kirk. I remember we were on a Charlie Kirk. I remember we were on a Charlie Kirk. I remember we were on a pub committee call when you mentioned pub committee call when you mentioned pub committee call when you mentioned the first um that he had been shot. He the first um that he had been shot. He the first um that he had been shot. He he was still alive at that point, I he was still alive at that point, I he was still alive at that point, I guess, but um afterwards we all heard guess, but um afterwards we all heard guess, but um afterwards we all heard the shocking news that he had been um

the shocking news that he had been um the shocking news that he had been um killed um tragically and um we saw, you killed um tragically and um we saw, you killed um tragically and um we saw, you know, Erica Kirk um at the funeral. know, Erica Kirk um at the funeral. know, Erica Kirk um at the funeral. forgive um the man who killed her forgive um the man who killed her forgive um the man who killed her husband in such a you know display of husband in such a you know display of husband in such a you know display of faith and grace in a lot of ways and faith and grace in a lot of ways and faith and grace in a lot of ways and there have been so many discussions I there have been so many discussions I there have been so many discussions I can't quite follow everything that's can't quite follow everything that's can't quite follow everything that's happening um with what's going on um as happening um with what's going on um as happening um with what's going on um as this takes shape it's definitely a comma this takes shape it's definitely a comma this takes shape it's definitely a comma in in your in your world but in in your in your world but in in your in your world but >> absolutely >> absolutely >> absolutely >> what what are some of the theological >> what what are some of the theological >> what what are some of the theological discussions and debates that have been discussions and debates that have been discussions and debates that have been sparked by by his death um you know what sparked by by his death um you know what sparked by by his death um you know what what have you seen happening and you've what have you seen happening and you've what have you seen happening and you've been part of some of those been part of some of those been part of some of those >> for sure. Yeah. I think the biggest >> for sure. Yeah. I think the biggest >> for sure. Yeah. I think the biggest conversation that really surprised me conversation that really surprised me conversation that really surprised me because because because it wasn't it wasn't prompted in any it wasn't it wasn't prompted in any it wasn't it wasn't prompted in any obvious way was the this question of now obvious way was the this question of now obvious way was the this question of now is the third way dead.

is the third way dead. is the third way dead. So for PE I mean I I assume at this So for PE I mean I I assume at this So for PE I mean I I assume at this point everybody knows who Charlie Kirk point everybody knows who Charlie Kirk point everybody knows who Charlie Kirk was and they didn't not everybody did was and they didn't not everybody did was and they didn't not everybody did know that uh at the time. know that uh at the time. know that uh at the time. >> Yeah I didn't I mean I this is where I >> Yeah I didn't I mean I this is where I >> Yeah I didn't I mean I this is where I felt like old and out of touch. I was felt like old and out of touch. I was felt like old and out of touch. I was like who I was googling as you were like who I was googling as you were like who I was googling as you were saying this on our call. I was like I saying this on our call. I was like I saying this on our call. I was like I don't know who this person is. Well, don't know who this person is. Well, don't know who this person is. Well, goes it I I think the the basic argument goes it I I think the the basic argument goes it I I think the the basic argument has been that some evangelical leaders has been that some evangelical leaders has been that some evangelical leaders told us that we shouldn't engage in told us that we shouldn't engage in told us that we shouldn't engage in partisan political activism, especially partisan political activism, especially partisan political activism, especially from the pulpit because that might drive from the pulpit because that might drive from the pulpit because that might drive people away from the church. And the people away from the church. And the people away from the church. And the response was, well, look at Charlie response was, well, look at Charlie response was, well, look at Charlie Kirk. He was out there doing Kirk. He was out there doing Kirk. He was out there doing apologetics. He was out there doing apologetics. He was out there doing apologetics. He was out there doing evangelism. evangelism. evangelism. And he was also out there campaigning And he was also out there campaigning And he was also out there campaigning very overtly and directly very overtly and directly very overtly and directly um in massive ways for President Trump um in massive ways for President Trump um in massive ways for President Trump and for his his Republican party. And he and for his his Republican party. And he and for his his Republican party. And he seems to be very popular among young seems to be very popular among young seems to be very popular among young people and in fact a lot of young people people and in fact a lot of young people people and in fact a lot of young people especially young men who might not especially young men who might not especially young men who might not otherwise be in the church seem to be otherwise be in the church seem to be otherwise be in the church seem to be showing an interest in church as a showing an interest in church as a showing an interest in church as a result of that. So that was the overall result of that. So that was the overall result of that. So that was the overall question and that was the response that question and that was the response that question and that was the response that seemed to come in in that wake. But it seemed to come in in that wake. But it seemed to come in in that wake. But it did seem to also misunderstand a lot of did seem to also misunderstand a lot of did seem to also misunderstand a lot of different dynamics about the nature of different dynamics about the nature of different dynamics about the nature of calling. Um how a pastor's calling could

calling. Um how a pastor's calling could calling. Um how a pastor's calling could be different from Charlie Kirk's be different from Charlie Kirk's be different from Charlie Kirk's calling. Um, I think one of the calling. Um, I think one of the calling. Um, I think one of the challenges we have is that a lot of challenges we have is that a lot of challenges we have is that a lot of pastors would prefer to be political pastors would prefer to be political pastors would prefer to be political pundits than to be pastors because it pundits than to be pastors because it pundits than to be pastors because it does seem like there's a lot more action does seem like there's a lot more action does seem like there's a lot more action when it comes to politics there. So that when it comes to politics there. So that when it comes to politics there. So that was one of the overall debates and that was one of the overall debates and that was one of the overall debates and that was one that I engaged in because it was one that I engaged in because it was one that I engaged in because it seemed that for whatever reason the seemed that for whatever reason the seemed that for whatever reason the person who was often invoked was Tim person who was often invoked was Tim person who was often invoked was Tim Keller um as the foil to to Charlie Kirk Keller um as the foil to to Charlie Kirk Keller um as the foil to to Charlie Kirk and my simple thought was well Tim has and my simple thought was well Tim has and my simple thought was well Tim has been dead for a couple years now as a been dead for a couple years now as a been dead for a couple years now as a different generation different I mean different generation different I mean different generation different I mean he's a pastor it's a different calling he's a pastor it's a different calling he's a pastor it's a different calling also different circumstances at the also different circumstances at the also different circumstances at the time. So, I don't really think that time. So, I don't really think that time. So, I don't really think that these are fruitful comparisons, but it these are fruitful comparisons, but it these are fruitful comparisons, but it did then bring a lot of good theological did then bring a lot of good theological did then bring a lot of good theological discussion about discussion about discussion about can we just say what is true as far as can we just say what is true as far as can we just say what is true as far as we understand it. Do we always have to we understand it. Do we always have to we understand it. Do we always have to be so concerned about how people are be so concerned about how people are be so concerned about how people are going to receive that truth? Do we going to receive that truth? Do we going to receive that truth? Do we always have to nuance it in such a way always have to nuance it in such a way always have to nuance it in such a way that would seem to be designed to favor that would seem to be designed to favor that would seem to be designed to favor one group's anticipated rejection of one group's anticipated rejection of one group's anticipated rejection of that truth. Okay, these are perfectly that truth. Okay, these are perfectly that truth. Okay, these are perfectly legitimate theological conversations to legitimate theological conversations to legitimate theological conversations to be able uh to have. And you might be be able uh to have. And you might be be able uh to have. And you might be able to look at an issue like say one able to look at an issue like say one able to look at an issue like say one that's been really prominent in previous that's been really prominent in previous that's been really prominent in previous years, especially last years. You might

years, especially last years. You might years, especially last years. You might look at like trans ideology or something look at like trans ideology or something look at like trans ideology or something like that and say, I mean, I don't think like that and say, I mean, I don't think like that and say, I mean, I don't think JK Rowling I don't I don't think she JK Rowling I don't I don't think she JK Rowling I don't I don't think she really coddled people in the way she really coddled people in the way she really coddled people in the way she aggressively denounced these things. She aggressively denounced these things. She aggressively denounced these things. She wasn't overly worried about how people wasn't overly worried about how people wasn't overly worried about how people were going to perceive her. She didn't were going to perceive her. She didn't were going to perceive her. She didn't seem to be looking to carve a Well, seem to be looking to carve a Well, seem to be looking to carve a Well, actually, I think to correct myself, she actually, I think to correct myself, she actually, I think to correct myself, she did in some ways carve a third way, did in some ways carve a third way, did in some ways carve a third way, which was non-trans, which was non-trans, which was non-trans, pro- feminist. pro- feminist. pro- feminist. >> Mhm. at the same time, which you know, >> Mhm. at the same time, which you know, >> Mhm. at the same time, which you know, because clearly she's not coming from because clearly she's not coming from because clearly she's not coming from these issues as some sort of right-wing these issues as some sort of right-wing these issues as some sort of right-wing conservative per se and not coming from conservative per se and not coming from conservative per se and not coming from explicitly Christian perspective either. explicitly Christian perspective either. explicitly Christian perspective either. So that would be an example of of a So that would be an example of of a So that would be an example of of a third way. And others, especially Glenn third way. And others, especially Glenn third way. And others, especially Glenn Scriber, who's uh one of our fellows at Scriber, who's uh one of our fellows at Scriber, who's uh one of our fellows at the Keller Center, done a great job of the Keller Center, done a great job of the Keller Center, done a great job of showing how virtually everybody just showing how virtually everybody just showing how virtually everybody just they almost always have people that they they almost always have people that they they almost always have people that they disagree with on multiple sides. Mhm. It disagree with on multiple sides. Mhm. It disagree with on multiple sides. Mhm. It >> the setting yourself up to have no >> the setting yourself up to have no >> the setting yourself up to have no enemies to your left or your right is a enemies to your left or your right is a enemies to your left or your right is a really really um devious way or really really um devious way or really really um devious way or kind of a guaranteed way for you to to kind of a guaranteed way for you to to kind of a guaranteed way for you to to go to places that you don't want to go go to places that you don't want to go go to places that you don't want to go or that you shouldn't go. So the other or that you shouldn't go. So the other or that you shouldn't go. So the other theological question that came out of theological question that came out of theological question that came out of this was this was this was how are we going to look back on Charlie how are we going to look back on Charlie how are we going to look back on Charlie Kirk? Because there was a good bit of Kirk? Because there was a good bit of Kirk? Because there was a good bit of feedback from people who saw certain feedback from people who saw certain feedback from people who saw certain clips, who had certain experiences and

clips, who had certain experiences and clips, who had certain experiences and thought, "No, I don't like this guy at thought, "No, I don't like this guy at thought, "No, I don't like this guy at all. He seems to be insensitive at all. He seems to be insensitive at all. He seems to be insensitive at least. He seems to be offensive at least. He seems to be offensive at least. He seems to be offensive at worst, especially perhaps to some worst, especially perhaps to some worst, especially perhaps to some minority groups." Plenty of people had minority groups." Plenty of people had minority groups." Plenty of people had that reaction as well. When somebody's that reaction as well. When somebody's that reaction as well. When somebody's been in the spotlight that much in their been in the spotlight that much in their been in the spotlight that much in their 20s, it's not surprise all sorts of 20s, it's not surprise all sorts of 20s, it's not surprise all sorts of different things that they're going to different things that they're going to different things that they're going to say. You could also come back and say, say. You could also come back and say, say. You could also come back and say, "Also, those people sometimes change." I "Also, those people sometimes change." I "Also, those people sometimes change." I don't know. I'm not going to adjudicate don't know. I'm not going to adjudicate don't know. I'm not going to adjudicate that whole whole record there. But when that whole whole record there. But when that whole whole record there. But when we look back on it, will we say, "Yeah, we look back on it, will we say, "Yeah, we look back on it, will we say, "Yeah, Kirk was an example of the real problems Kirk was an example of the real problems Kirk was an example of the real problems that we have on the right that people that we have on the right that people that we have on the right that people need to push back against, or will we need to push back against, or will we need to push back against, or will we say, "Wow, I didn't know how much say, "Wow, I didn't know how much say, "Wow, I didn't know how much Charlie Kirk was holding back on the Charlie Kirk was holding back on the Charlie Kirk was holding back on the right that he was pushing back against." right that he was pushing back against." right that he was pushing back against." M M M >> and of course Melissa, that would be a >> and of course Melissa, that would be a >> and of course Melissa, that would be a third way third way third way >> again of saying no, I I don't agree with >> again of saying no, I I don't agree with >> again of saying no, I I don't agree with Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Candace Owens or Tucker Carlson or Nick Fuentes or any number of these voices Fuentes or any number of these voices Fuentes or any number of these voices out there. Fuentes was the one primarily out there. Fuentes was the one primarily out there. Fuentes was the one primarily that he argued with a lot, especially on that he argued with a lot, especially on that he argued with a lot, especially on racial issues, and who came out very racial issues, and who came out very racial issues, and who came out very emphatically afterward saying, "I'm emphatically afterward saying, "I'm emphatically afterward saying, "I'm going to hijack your entire going to hijack your entire going to hijack your entire organization. Your crowd follows me.

organization. Your crowd follows me. organization. Your crowd follows me. Forget it. You're you're you're done and Forget it. You're you're you're done and Forget it. You're you're you're done and gone." gone." gone." So that's why it's a comma because I So that's why it's a comma because I So that's why it's a comma because I certainly cannot dictate right now or certainly cannot dictate right now or certainly cannot dictate right now or analyze right now how that's going to be analyze right now how that's going to be analyze right now how that's going to be remembered. That's still a story in remembered. That's still a story in remembered. That's still a story in progress. progress. progress. >> Yeah. And I think maybe a good lesson >> Yeah. And I think maybe a good lesson >> Yeah. And I think maybe a good lesson that we can all take is it's it's always that we can all take is it's it's always that we can all take is it's it's always good to be bold with the gospel. I mean good to be bold with the gospel. I mean good to be bold with the gospel. I mean like we can we can all take that on and like we can we can all take that on and like we can we can all take that on and Paul asked to pray for boldness with the Paul asked to pray for boldness with the Paul asked to pray for boldness with the gospel. So, you know, some of us may gospel. So, you know, some of us may gospel. So, you know, some of us may need a little like, you know, hey, be need a little like, you know, hey, be need a little like, you know, hey, be bold. This is what the line I keep bold. This is what the line I keep bold. This is what the line I keep saying in this in this podcast is what's saying in this in this podcast is what's saying in this in this podcast is what's true is true. You can be bold with the true is true. You can be bold with the true is true. You can be bold with the truth. And then yet at the same time, truth. And then yet at the same time, truth. And then yet at the same time, remain cur remain curious about other remain cur remain curious about other remain cur remain curious about other people's views. Not in a way that we people's views. Not in a way that we people's views. Not in a way that we have to believe what they're saying is have to believe what they're saying is have to believe what they're saying is true, but just to seek to understand the true, but just to seek to understand the true, but just to seek to understand the person behind the thought we maybe person behind the thought we maybe person behind the thought we maybe disagree with. Because what I always say disagree with. Because what I always say disagree with. Because what I always say I if what we believe is that the spirit I if what we believe is that the spirit I if what we believe is that the spirit is the only thing that can open our eyes is the only thing that can open our eyes is the only thing that can open our eyes to understand the gospel. Um well it to understand the gospel. Um well it to understand the gospel. Um well it makes sense that people don't believe makes sense that people don't believe makes sense that people don't believe unless the spirit opens their eyes. So unless the spirit opens their eyes. So unless the spirit opens their eyes. So we can sit and listen to someone's maybe we can sit and listen to someone's maybe we can sit and listen to someone's maybe very mistaken view but to seek so that very mistaken view but to seek so that very mistaken view but to seek so that we might have inroads with the gospel.

we might have inroads with the gospel. we might have inroads with the gospel. Um I did a I did a deep dish episode Um I did a I did a deep dish episode Um I did a I did a deep dish episode with Becky Pippert on this and she's with Becky Pippert on this and she's with Becky Pippert on this and she's just a master at it. I mean, every time just a master at it. I mean, every time just a master at it. I mean, every time she gets on an airplane with someone, she gets on an airplane with someone, she gets on an airplane with someone, she's just go, you know, and it's she's just go, you know, and it's she's just go, you know, and it's amazing how the Lord can use her amazing how the Lord can use her amazing how the Lord can use her boldness, but her listening ear um to boldness, but her listening ear um to boldness, but her listening ear um to really allow, you know, the spirit to do really allow, you know, the spirit to do really allow, you know, the spirit to do his work in the lives of people. And so, his work in the lives of people. And so, his work in the lives of people. And so, I think it's it's good for us to not be I think it's it's good for us to not be I think it's it's good for us to not be so complacent that we just kind of rest so complacent that we just kind of rest so complacent that we just kind of rest on our laurels. Um, you know, I think on our laurels. Um, you know, I think on our laurels. Um, you know, I think it's maybe been a good push in some of it's maybe been a good push in some of it's maybe been a good push in some of those directions. And also at the same those directions. And also at the same those directions. And also at the same time though to remember, you know, it's time though to remember, you know, it's time though to remember, you know, it's it's not an argument to to win a person it's not an argument to to win a person it's not an argument to to win a person though to try to share the gospel with. though to try to share the gospel with. though to try to share the gospel with. Um and and that's a that's a tough Um and and that's a that's a tough Um and and that's a that's a tough balance to hold a lot of times in our balance to hold a lot of times in our balance to hold a lot of times in our evangelism. Um evangelism. Um evangelism. Um >> so we have discussed a lot in your top >> so we have discussed a lot in your top >> so we have discussed a lot in your top 10 the we're we're an hour in 10 the we're we're an hour in 10 the we're we're an hour in >> and you've interviewed 23 people this >> and you've interviewed 23 people this >> and you've interviewed 23 people this year on Gospel Bound. I'll probably be year on Gospel Bound. I'll probably be year on Gospel Bound. I'll probably be your longest interview. Um, your longest interview. Um, your longest interview. Um, any ones that stood out to you this any ones that stood out to you this any ones that stood out to you this year? Any upcoming ones maybe that year? Any upcoming ones maybe that year? Any upcoming ones maybe that you're really looking forward to?

you're really looking forward to? you're really looking forward to? >> Yeah, I got a few few of those, Melissa. >> Yeah, I got a few few of those, Melissa. >> Yeah, I got a few few of those, Melissa. Um, Um, Um, I I mean, I think people are probably I I mean, I think people are probably I I mean, I think people are probably sick of hearing me talk about my friend sick of hearing me talk about my friend sick of hearing me talk about my friend Alan Levi in his book, A Theo of Golden. Alan Levi in his book, A Theo of Golden. Alan Levi in his book, A Theo of Golden. But conversation with Allan was But conversation with Allan was But conversation with Allan was definitely a highlight. We had Allen at definitely a highlight. We had Allen at definitely a highlight. We had Allen at our 25 National Conference this last our 25 National Conference this last our 25 National Conference this last year was exciting. Um, the big news year was exciting. Um, the big news year was exciting. Um, the big news lately is that he debuted at number lately is that he debuted at number lately is that he debuted at number seven on the fiction New York Times seven on the fiction New York Times seven on the fiction New York Times bestseller list for that book. Um, now bestseller list for that book. Um, now bestseller list for that book. Um, now that could be confusing to people that could be confusing to people that could be confusing to people because that book's been out for a because that book's been out for a because that book's been out for a while. How can it just debut on the New while. How can it just debut on the New while. How can it just debut on the New York Times bestseller list? It's because York Times bestseller list? It's because York Times bestseller list? It's because that book was independently published. that book was independently published. that book was independently published. Um, I know we've had phenomena like this Um, I know we've had phenomena like this Um, I know we've had phenomena like this in the past. Some of the biggest in the past. Some of the biggest in the past. Some of the biggest bestsellers the last 25 years have bestsellers the last 25 years have bestsellers the last 25 years have actually been independent, but it is it actually been independent, but it is it actually been independent, but it is it is rare. And think about this, Melissa, is rare. And think about this, Melissa, is rare. And think about this, Melissa, and you've read the book. Um, there was and you've read the book. Um, there was and you've read the book. Um, there was no audio book version of it no audio book version of it no audio book version of it >> until Simon and Schustster picked it up >> until Simon and Schustster picked it up >> until Simon and Schustster picked it up and um and um and um >> I'd love to hear him reading it. I bet >> I'd love to hear him reading it. I bet >> I'd love to hear him reading it. I bet it's excellent. Yeah, Allan's not the it's excellent. Yeah, Allan's not the it's excellent. Yeah, Allan's not the one reading it, but um they've got a one reading it, but um they've got a one reading it, but um they've got a they've got a bonafide Hollywood star they've got a bonafide Hollywood star they've got a bonafide Hollywood star reading it as you'd expect from Simon reading it as you'd expect from Simon reading it as you'd expect from Simon Schustster. But Allan would be great Schustster. But Allan would be great Schustster. But Allan would be great reading it. That would have been reading it. That would have been reading it. That would have been >> I think I think the story was >> I think I think the story was >> I think I think the story was >> that >> that >> that >> his friends encouraged him to do it, but >> his friends encouraged him to do it, but >> his friends encouraged him to do it, but he just said he didn't have experience he just said he didn't have experience he just said he didn't have experience doing it. But especially he's such a doing it. But especially he's such a doing it. But especially he's such a good folkteller, folk storyteller,

good folkteller, folk storyteller, good folkteller, folk storyteller, singer, songwriter, singer, songwriter, singer, songwriter, >> it would have been perfect. But again, >> it would have been perfect. But again, >> it would have been perfect. But again, going with the going with the big famous going with the going with the big famous going with the going with the big famous name makes a lot of sense. But um yeah, name makes a lot of sense. But um yeah, name makes a lot of sense. But um yeah, so and we should be expecting another so and we should be expecting another so and we should be expecting another another novel in that in that uh golden another novel in that in that uh golden another novel in that in that uh golden universe from Allen in the future. But universe from Allen in the future. But universe from Allen in the future. But >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. >> Oh, good. >> Yeah. So, my family went down to to >> Yeah. So, my family went down to to >> Yeah. So, my family went down to to visit Allen uh at the coffee shop that visit Allen uh at the coffee shop that visit Allen uh at the coffee shop that he talks about in the book and and just he talks about in the book and and just he talks about in the book and and just spend some time with him. he was spend some time with him. he was spend some time with him. he was wrestling with that decision at the wrestling with that decision at the wrestling with that decision at the time, but um I'm going to be as we're time, but um I'm going to be as we're time, but um I'm going to be as we're recording this, I'm going to be doing recording this, I'm going to be doing recording this, I'm going to be doing doing two events with him tomorrow. Uh doing two events with him tomorrow. Uh doing two events with him tomorrow. Uh so that's pretty that's pretty fun. So so that's pretty that's pretty fun. So so that's pretty that's pretty fun. So um and I didn't know him at all through um and I didn't know him at all through um and I didn't know him at all through this until reading the book. So it's this until reading the book. So it's this until reading the book. So it's been a fun fun process of getting to been a fun fun process of getting to been a fun fun process of getting to know him through that um through that know him through that um through that know him through that um through that excitement. So, couple of interviews excitement. So, couple of interviews excitement. So, couple of interviews that I did, uh, Ross Douet also hit the that I did, uh, Ross Douet also hit the that I did, uh, Ross Douet also hit the New York Times bestseller list for the New York Times bestseller list for the New York Times bestseller list for the first time ever with his apologetics first time ever with his apologetics first time ever with his apologetics book, uh, believe Nicholas Carr's book book, uh, believe Nicholas Carr's book book, uh, believe Nicholas Carr's book um, on the shallows, um, was a really um, on the shallows, um, was a really um, on the shallows, um, was a really important one this year, really going important one this year, really going important one this year, really going along with a lot of the things that along with a lot of the things that along with a lot of the things that we've discussed here related to AI and we've discussed here related to AI and we've discussed here related to AI and and, uh, wisdom and discernment with and, uh, wisdom and discernment with and, uh, wisdom and discernment with technology. Um, that was a that was a technology. Um, that was a that was a technology. Um, that was a that was a fun interview. And then Bobby Jameson's fun interview. And then Bobby Jameson's fun interview. And then Bobby Jameson's Everything is Never Enough, his book on Everything is Never Enough, his book on Everything is Never Enough, his book on Ecclesiastes, that really stood out. um Ecclesiastes, that really stood out. um Ecclesiastes, that really stood out. um really stood out to me. Bobby is both a really stood out to me. Bobby is both a really stood out to me. Bobby is both a dynamic writer and also a dynamic dynamic writer and also a dynamic dynamic writer and also a dynamic interview and preacher. So, that's interview and preacher. So, that's interview and preacher. So, that's really fun as a combination of someone really fun as a combination of someone really fun as a combination of someone there. But, uh coming up for next year, there. But, uh coming up for next year, there. But, uh coming up for next year, Carl Truman has a major new book coming

Carl Truman has a major new book coming Carl Truman has a major new book coming out. Uh Alistister McGrath I'll be out. Uh Alistister McGrath I'll be out. Uh Alistister McGrath I'll be talking to and then also we'll have talking to and then also we'll have talking to and then also we'll have Kathy Keller um on the on the show. So, Kathy Keller um on the on the show. So, Kathy Keller um on the on the show. So, those are a few that we've got we've got those are a few that we've got we've got those are a few that we've got we've got scheduled there. So now you bring us up scheduled there. So now you bring us up scheduled there. So now you bring us up to speed on Deep Dish. You guys just to speed on Deep Dish. You guys just to speed on Deep Dish. You guys just wrapped up your 26th episode. wrapped up your 26th episode. wrapped up your 26th episode. >> The the listeners have been great. It's >> The the listeners have been great. It's >> The the listeners have been great. It's just been very enthusiastically just been very enthusiastically just been very enthusiastically received. Um tell us a little bit about received. Um tell us a little bit about received. Um tell us a little bit about what you're excited about looking back what you're excited about looking back what you're excited about looking back and looking ahead. and looking ahead. and looking ahead. >> Yeah, Courtney and I have had a lot of >> Yeah, Courtney and I have had a lot of >> Yeah, Courtney and I have had a lot of fun. It's been um great to get to have fun. It's been um great to get to have fun. It's been um great to get to have so many interesting interviews. I think so many interesting interviews. I think so many interesting interviews. I think one of, you know, one of our most one of, you know, one of our most one of, you know, one of our most popular was with Jen Wilin about um popular was with Jen Wilin about um popular was with Jen Wilin about um aging and that being a disciplehip aging and that being a disciplehip aging and that being a disciplehip issue. I mean, that that's that's a issue. I mean, that that's that's a issue. I mean, that that's that's a topic women um definitely seem to want topic women um definitely seem to want topic women um definitely seem to want to talk about, you know, and is very uh to talk about, you know, and is very uh to talk about, you know, and is very uh >> Why is that, Melissa? >> Why is that, Melissa? >> Why is that, Melissa? >> It's very in your face. Uh because I >> It's very in your face. Uh because I >> It's very in your face. Uh because I think I mean I I think it's the think I mean I I think it's the think I mean I I think it's the Instagram culture. I mean, look, I I I Instagram culture. I mean, look, I I I Instagram culture. I mean, look, I I I mean, I look back at pictures of myself mean, I look back at pictures of myself mean, I look back at pictures of myself in college. I'm like, we didn't know how in college. I'm like, we didn't know how in college. I'm like, we didn't know how to stand. We didn't I mean, we had film to stand. We didn't I mean, we had film to stand. We didn't I mean, we had film cameras, you know? We weren't we weren't cameras, you know? We weren't we weren't cameras, you know? We weren't we weren't living for a picture. And now people are living for a picture. And now people are living for a picture. And now people are living for the picture.

living for the picture. living for the picture. >> Everything. Yeah. >> Everything. Yeah. >> Everything. Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, it's a totally different >> Yeah. I mean, it's a totally different >> Yeah. I mean, it's a totally different world. And so, therefore, when you hear, world. And so, therefore, when you hear, world. And so, therefore, when you hear, "Oh, I'm getting an injection." Yeah. I "Oh, I'm getting an injection." Yeah. I "Oh, I'm getting an injection." Yeah. I mean, it just changes how you view aging mean, it just changes how you view aging mean, it just changes how you view aging and in some ways it becomes the pursuit and in some ways it becomes the pursuit and in some ways it becomes the pursuit rather than aging. Well, um, and that rather than aging. Well, um, and that rather than aging. Well, um, and that that it really is a disciplehip issue that it really is a disciplehip issue that it really is a disciplehip issue cuz to be honest, it takes a lot of time cuz to be honest, it takes a lot of time cuz to be honest, it takes a lot of time to to look halfway decent that older you to to look halfway decent that older you to to look halfway decent that older you get. And when you're com like when I get. And when you're com like when I get. And when you're com like when I think about like my grandmother for think about like my grandmother for think about like my grandmother for instance, she looked old the whole time instance, she looked old the whole time instance, she looked old the whole time I remember her and she wasn't that old. I remember her and she wasn't that old. I remember her and she wasn't that old. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, what what used to be appropriate >> So, what what used to be appropriate >> So, what what used to be appropriate aging seems very very different now. So aging seems very very different now. So aging seems very very different now. So anyway, those are some some of the good anyway, those are some some of the good anyway, those are some some of the good discussions we're having and it's really discussions we're having and it's really discussions we're having and it's really fun. We've talked about mentoring. We fun. We've talked about mentoring. We fun. We've talked about mentoring. We had Jackie Hill Perry on to talk about had Jackie Hill Perry on to talk about had Jackie Hill Perry on to talk about coveting, which was another thing I coveting, which was another thing I coveting, which was another thing I think um has just only grown in the think um has just only grown in the think um has just only grown in the culture we're in with Instagram. You culture we're in with Instagram. You culture we're in with Instagram. You know, it's so easy to see. know, it's so easy to see. know, it's so easy to see. Yeah. I wrote Envy of Eve before Yeah. I wrote Envy of Eve before Yeah. I wrote Envy of Eve before Instagram was a thing.

Instagram was a thing. Instagram was a thing. >> Your friends are always on vacation. >> Your friends are always on vacation. >> Your friends are always on vacation. Always. friends are always on vacation Always. friends are always on vacation Always. friends are always on vacation in great locations. in great locations. in great locations. >> Yeah, I know. I know. It's pretty. >> Yeah, I know. I know. It's pretty. >> Yeah, I know. I know. It's pretty. Anyway, so those are just those are the Anyway, so those are just those are the Anyway, so those are just those are the things we're talking about. It's been things we're talking about. It's been things we're talking about. It's been really fun to be able to laugh a lot and really fun to be able to laugh a lot and really fun to be able to laugh a lot and yet at the same time be talking about yet at the same time be talking about yet at the same time be talking about deep, you know, deep theological truths. deep, you know, deep theological truths. deep, you know, deep theological truths. And I think um what we're trying to do And I think um what we're trying to do And I think um what we're trying to do um and hoping to do is spark um and hoping to do is spark um and hoping to do is spark conversations that then will happen conversations that then will happen conversations that then will happen around real tables in real local around real tables in real local around real tables in real local churches. We don't want people just churches. We don't want people just churches. We don't want people just listening to us. We hope they're having listening to us. We hope they're having listening to us. We hope they're having those conversations. In fact, we write those conversations. In fact, we write those conversations. In fact, we write questions for every episode and we hear questions for every episode and we hear questions for every episode and we hear from women who are doing them in small from women who are doing them in small from women who are doing them in small groups and they're having those groups and they're having those groups and they're having those conversations and that's been one of the conversations and that's been one of the conversations and that's been one of the most fun things to see happen because most fun things to see happen because most fun things to see happen because what we want is not more isolation but what we want is not more isolation but what we want is not more isolation but more community in your real community. more community in your real community. more community in your real community. Um, and so that's that's what we're Um, and so that's that's what we're Um, and so that's that's what we're hoping to do. That's really meaningful, hoping to do. That's really meaningful, hoping to do. That's really meaningful, Melissa, to be able to say, "We don't Melissa, to be able to say, "We don't Melissa, to be able to say, "We don't want you to have vicarious friendships want you to have vicarious friendships want you to have vicarious friendships through us, listening to us, but to through us, listening to us, but to through us, listening to us, but to translate this into your your translate this into your your translate this into your your relationships there." Um, that's very relationships there." Um, that's very relationships there." Um, that's very thoughtful of you guys. Um, my editor's thoughtful of you guys. Um, my editor's thoughtful of you guys. Um, my editor's choice list, the best of 2025 at TGC, choice list, the best of 2025 at TGC, choice list, the best of 2025 at TGC, has your episode with Jackie in it. And has your episode with Jackie in it. And has your episode with Jackie in it. And I just thought it's a good sign for a I just thought it's a good sign for a I just thought it's a good sign for a podcast when one of your most popular podcast when one of your most popular podcast when one of your most popular episodes is about a sin.

episodes is about a sin. episodes is about a sin. I think that's a that's general a I think that's a that's general a I think that's a that's general a general sign of spiritual health. I general sign of spiritual health. I general sign of spiritual health. I think think think >> that's also my proclivity. I'm like, >> that's also my proclivity. I'm like, >> that's also my proclivity. I'm like, let's talk about how bad we are, Colin. let's talk about how bad we are, Colin. let's talk about how bad we are, Colin. Like I'm just, you know, I'm like, Like I'm just, you know, I'm like, Like I'm just, you know, I'm like, >> tell me you're reformed without telling >> tell me you're reformed without telling >> tell me you're reformed without telling me you're reformed. me you're reformed. me you're reformed. >> Exactly. Let's just talk about the >> Exactly. Let's just talk about the >> Exactly. Let's just talk about the darkness in your heart. And yeah, that's darkness in your heart. And yeah, that's darkness in your heart. And yeah, that's I'm a lot of fun to be around. Yeah, I'm a lot of fun to be around. Yeah, I'm a lot of fun to be around. Yeah, it's great. it's great. it's great. >> That's why these take so long. >> That's why these take so long. >> That's why these take so long. >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, >> Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay. Well, books. This is We have to We always We books. This is We have to We always We books. This is We have to We always We already had a midyear book conversation. already had a midyear book conversation. already had a midyear book conversation. And And And >> I only have one. I I only have one. >> I only have one. I I only have one. >> I only have one. I I only have one. >> I mean, I could give a lot more. >> I mean, I could give a lot more. >> I mean, I could give a lot more. >> Do we need to get you in counseling? >> Do we need to get you in counseling? >> Do we need to get you in counseling? What's going on? Okay, you have one. What's going on? Okay, you have one. What's going on? Okay, you have one. Okay. What What's a book you want to Okay. What What's a book you want to Okay. What What's a book you want to talk about? Well, um, sometimes you go talk about? Well, um, sometimes you go talk about? Well, um, sometimes you go through good and bad streaks of book through good and bad streaks of book through good and bad streaks of book reading. You know, sometimes you're reading. You know, sometimes you're reading. You know, sometimes you're like, "Man, that was that was amazing." like, "Man, that was that was amazing." like, "Man, that was that was amazing." And then that was amazing. And and then And then that was amazing. And and then And then that was amazing. And and then sometimes you're just kind of dragging sometimes you're just kind of dragging sometimes you're just kind of dragging yourself at your the books on your yourself at your the books on your yourself at your the books on your nightstand. But, um, I read this book nightstand. But, um, I read this book nightstand. But, um, I read this book just recently. It is. And this special just recently. It is. And this special just recently. It is. And this special for you, Melissa. Bla1 Pascal, the man for you, Melissa. Bla1 Pascal, the man for you, Melissa. Bla1 Pascal, the man who made the modern world by Graham who made the modern world by Graham who made the modern world by Graham Tomlin, Tomlin, Tomlin, UK author, former bishop in the Church UK author, former bishop in the Church UK author, former bishop in the Church of England, UK publisher. So that's of England, UK publisher. So that's of England, UK publisher. So that's pretty rare. Um, I mean, we know some pretty rare. Um, I mean, we know some pretty rare. Um, I mean, we know some good UK publishers and publish with good UK publishers and publish with good UK publishers and publish with them, but it's not that common for me to them, but it's not that common for me to them, but it's not that common for me to read one from this publisher in

read one from this publisher in read one from this publisher in particular. Just they don't um tend to particular. Just they don't um tend to particular. Just they don't um tend to market as well or distribute as well in market as well or distribute as well in market as well or distribute as well in the United States. But um this was just the United States. But um this was just the United States. But um this was just exemplary exemplary exemplary of all sorts of different things. Um I of all sorts of different things. Um I of all sorts of different things. Um I mean Melissa because I'm not trained as mean Melissa because I'm not trained as mean Melissa because I'm not trained as a as a mathematics instructor like you a as a mathematics instructor like you a as a mathematics instructor like you are. Um I don't think I could have told are. Um I don't think I could have told are. Um I don't think I could have told you what I mean I could have told you you what I mean I could have told you you what I mean I could have told you Pascal was a big deal and I could have Pascal was a big deal and I could have Pascal was a big deal and I could have guessed at some of the reasons why guessed at some of the reasons why guessed at some of the reasons why especially related to air pressure or especially related to air pressure or especially related to air pressure or something like that. So the book gave me something like that. So the book gave me something like that. So the book gave me a much better sense of, a much better sense of, a much better sense of, >> oh, this guy has a real claim to be the >> oh, this guy has a real claim to be the >> oh, this guy has a real claim to be the most significant most significant most significant >> inventor and figure of the >> inventor and figure of the >> inventor and figure of the enlightenment. Maybe he isn't, but he's enlightenment. Maybe he isn't, but he's enlightenment. Maybe he isn't, but he's definitely has a claim to be able to do definitely has a claim to be able to do definitely has a claim to be able to do that. And the list of of inventions from that. And the list of of inventions from that. And the list of of inventions from things like, you know, barometric things like, you know, barometric things like, you know, barometric pressure, tested with altitude, things pressure, tested with altitude, things pressure, tested with altitude, things like that. I mean, um, not to mention like that. I mean, um, not to mention like that. I mean, um, not to mention basically inventing the calculator and basically inventing the calculator and basically inventing the calculator and the computer and all sorts of crazy the computer and all sorts of crazy the computer and all sorts of crazy stuff like that, probability theory. I stuff like that, probability theory. I stuff like that, probability theory. I mean, it was really blew me away. But mean, it was really blew me away. But mean, it was really blew me away. But primarily the book is about his primarily the book is about his primarily the book is about his apologetics and especially about his apologetics and especially about his apologetics and especially about his extremely dynamic encounter, emotional, extremely dynamic encounter, emotional, extremely dynamic encounter, emotional, personal, mystical encounter with the personal, mystical encounter with the personal, mystical encounter with the Lord, his night of fire. um that Lord, his night of fire. um that Lord, his night of fire. um that completely transformed his life. So completely transformed his life. So completely transformed his life. So imagine getting a book about this imagine getting a book about this imagine getting a book about this Augustinian flamed piety

Augustinian flamed piety Augustinian flamed piety combined with, you know, all of the combined with, you know, all of the combined with, you know, all of the stuff of this is maybe the most stuff of this is maybe the most stuff of this is maybe the most significant inventor of the significant inventor of the significant inventor of the Enlightenment combined with also Enlightenment combined with also Enlightenment combined with also probably the second most accomplished probably the second most accomplished probably the second most accomplished cultural apologist of all time after cultural apologist of all time after cultural apologist of all time after Augustine who was his who was his Augustine who was his who was his Augustine who was his who was his inspiration. inspiration. inspiration. And it got to the point, Melissa, where And it got to the point, Melissa, where And it got to the point, Melissa, where I was so excited about it that I sat my I was so excited about it that I sat my I was so excited about it that I sat my whole family down and they learned they whole family down and they learned they whole family down and they learned they learned Pascal's learned Pascal's learned Pascal's um Pascal's apologetic for the existence um Pascal's apologetic for the existence um Pascal's apologetic for the existence of God from his hiddenness of God from his hiddenness of God from his hiddenness in a very Austinian kind of sense. But in a very Austinian kind of sense. But in a very Austinian kind of sense. But >> remind the audience of the ages of your >> remind the audience of the ages of your >> remind the audience of the ages of your children, Colin. children, Colin. children, Colin. >> Uh 10 and seven and four. Okay, just >> Uh 10 and seven and four. Okay, just >> Uh 10 and seven and four. Okay, just wanted everyone to know they're not like wanted everyone to know they're not like wanted everyone to know they're not like mine or mine or mine or >> who knows what they remembered, but I >> who knows what they remembered, but I >> who knows what they remembered, but I was pretty excited about it. But I don't was pretty excited about it. But I don't was pretty excited about it. But I don't know if you just if you thought know if you just if you thought know if you just if you thought think about all the ways I guess what I think about all the ways I guess what I think about all the ways I guess what I come back to so often is come back to so often is come back to so often is Jesus, his family did not believe in him Jesus, his family did not believe in him Jesus, his family did not believe in him as the son of God before the cross. I as the son of God before the cross. I as the son of God before the cross. I mean, we're talking about his brothers mean, we're talking about his brothers mean, we're talking about his brothers and sisters here. um he appears to and sisters here. um he appears to and sisters here. um he appears to thousands of people who do not believe thousands of people who do not believe thousands of people who do not believe in him after the resurrection.

in him after the resurrection. in him after the resurrection. I go back to the story of of of of I go back to the story of of of of I go back to the story of of of of Lazarus and you know I mean going to I Lazarus and you know I mean going to I Lazarus and you know I mean going to I mean being in hell and like go warn my mean being in hell and like go warn my mean being in hell and like go warn my brothers even if they knew a man was brothers even if they knew a man was brothers even if they knew a man was raised from the dead they would not raised from the dead they would not raised from the dead they would not believe. believe. believe. And so there's and then you you look at And so there's and then you you look at And so there's and then you you look at all the the the the messianic secret of all the the the the messianic secret of all the the the the messianic secret of the gospels Jesus telling everybody you the gospels Jesus telling everybody you the gospels Jesus telling everybody you know don't tell anybody about about me. know don't tell anybody about about me. know don't tell anybody about about me. You look back on the prophets and you You look back on the prophets and you You look back on the prophets and you see the which is then manifest see the which is then manifest see the which is then manifest especially from Isaiah but it's manifest especially from Isaiah but it's manifest especially from Isaiah but it's manifest in the parables. I'm sharing these in the parables. I'm sharing these in the parables. I'm sharing these parables with you so that you will not parables with you so that you will not parables with you so that you will not believe. Not to make it easier to believe. Not to make it easier to believe. Not to make it easier to believe but so you will not believe. You believe but so you will not believe. You believe but so you will not believe. You realize that belief is not directly realize that belief is not directly realize that belief is not directly connected to evidence. connected to evidence. connected to evidence. And that is the central insight kind of And that is the central insight kind of And that is the central insight kind of challenge of the enlightenment is that challenge of the enlightenment is that challenge of the enlightenment is that if God's real he'd leave proof. Well, if God's real he'd leave proof. Well, if God's real he'd leave proof. Well, first of all, what we've seen, and this first of all, what we've seen, and this first of all, what we've seen, and this is Ross Douet's book, what we've seen in is Ross Douet's book, what we've seen in is Ross Douet's book, what we've seen in all of the study of the cosmos, all of the study of the cosmos, all of the study of the cosmos, is more evidence of God, the Big Bang is more evidence of God, the Big Bang is more evidence of God, the Big Bang theory, I mean, all this sort of stuff.

theory, I mean, all this sort of stuff. theory, I mean, all this sort of stuff. We're only seeing more evidence of it. We're only seeing more evidence of it. We're only seeing more evidence of it. And so, you keep coming back saying, And so, you keep coming back saying, And so, you keep coming back saying, "Well, but it's not enough." And "Well, but it's not enough." And "Well, but it's not enough." And Pascal's argument is, "Of course it's Pascal's argument is, "Of course it's Pascal's argument is, "Of course it's not, cuz you don't want it to be not, cuz you don't want it to be not, cuz you don't want it to be enough." enough." enough." >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because belief is about your heart. It's >> Because belief is about your heart. It's >> Because belief is about your heart. It's a moral issue. It's not an evidence a moral issue. It's not an evidence a moral issue. It's not an evidence issue. issue. issue. >> And all of a sudden, all these things >> And all of a sudden, all these things >> And all of a sudden, all these things were just locking into place like, of were just locking into place like, of were just locking into place like, of course, course, course, you can see a man raised from the dead you can see a man raised from the dead you can see a man raised from the dead who is perfectly sinless and you don't who is perfectly sinless and you don't who is perfectly sinless and you don't believe in him because you want to believe in him because you want to believe in him because you want to follow. You don't want to believe. follow. You don't want to believe. follow. You don't want to believe. Anyway, great book. Anyway, great book. Anyway, great book. >> That's Blaze Pascal. >> That's Blaze Pascal. >> That's Blaze Pascal. >> What's it called again? >> What's it called again? >> What's it called again? >> Bla1 Pascal, Man Who Made the Modern >> Bla1 Pascal, Man Who Made the Modern >> Bla1 Pascal, Man Who Made the Modern World by Graham Tomlin. Excellent book. World by Graham Tomlin. Excellent book. World by Graham Tomlin. Excellent book. That's I have to read that one. That's I have to read that one. That's I have to read that one. >> We also put him in context. I I always >> We also put him in context. I I always >> We also put him in context. I I always heard about what does it mean that he's heard about what does it mean that he's heard about what does it mean that he's a Jansenist? Jansenists sound a lot like a Jansenist? Jansenists sound a lot like a Jansenist? Jansenists sound a lot like Calvinists, but they're Catholics. Well, Calvinists, but they're Catholics. Well, Calvinists, but they're Catholics. Well, Tomlin does a really great job of Tomlin does a really great job of Tomlin does a really great job of explaining Pascal was very adamant that explaining Pascal was very adamant that explaining Pascal was very adamant that he was not a Calvinist. At the same he was not a Calvinist. At the same he was not a Calvinist. At the same time, because he was so robustly time, because he was so robustly time, because he was so robustly Augustininian, Augustininian, Augustininian, h there's a lot of commonalities there.

h there's a lot of commonalities there. h there's a lot of commonalities there. So So So >> interesting. Anyway, well, you let's >> interesting. Anyway, well, you let's >> interesting. Anyway, well, you let's give us some other examples in here for give us some other examples in here for give us some other examples in here for people who might not be excited about people who might not be excited about people who might not be excited about Bla1 Pascal. Let's give them some other Bla1 Pascal. Let's give them some other Bla1 Pascal. Let's give them some other alternatives. What stood out to you alternatives. What stood out to you alternatives. What stood out to you you're reading this year, Melissa? you're reading this year, Melissa? you're reading this year, Melissa? >> Well, what I'm reading right now >> Well, what I'm reading right now >> Well, what I'm reading right now actually is a book I found and we were actually is a book I found and we were actually is a book I found and we were we our family, we're a little bit of a we our family, we're a little bit of a we our family, we're a little bit of a bookish family. So, after we go to bookish family. So, after we go to bookish family. So, after we go to dinner together, we always head to dinner together, we always head to dinner together, we always head to Barnes & Noble and just spend 30 minutes Barnes & Noble and just spend 30 minutes Barnes & Noble and just spend 30 minutes perusing the titles together. And I perusing the titles together. And I perusing the titles together. And I stumbled across this book called I'm stumbled across this book called I'm stumbled across this book called I'm Looking for a Kind Person. And it was an Looking for a Kind Person. And it was an Looking for a Kind Person. And it was an advertisement that was put in um British advertisement that was put in um British advertisement that was put in um British newspapers for um after after um the newspapers for um after after um the newspapers for um after after um the Nazi regime moved into Austria and Nazi regime moved into Austria and Nazi regime moved into Austria and Vienna was overtaken. Um, some of these Vienna was overtaken. Um, some of these Vienna was overtaken. Um, some of these families put adverts in British papers families put adverts in British papers families put adverts in British papers basically trying to get their kids out basically trying to get their kids out basically trying to get their kids out of um, Nazic controlled Vienna, which of um, Nazic controlled Vienna, which of um, Nazic controlled Vienna, which can you imagine putting an advertisement can you imagine putting an advertisement can you imagine putting an advertisement for someone to take your child? And for someone to take your child? And for someone to take your child? And that's what these were. And there were that's what these were. And there were that's what these were. And there were six. And so the the author of the book, six. And so the the author of the book, six. And so the the author of the book, his father was one of them, but there his father was one of them, but there his father was one of them, but there were six on the page he found in the were six on the page he found in the were six on the page he found in the newspaper. And so he traces all six. And newspaper. And so he traces all six. And newspaper. And so he traces all six. And so I've been reading it. It's pretty I so I've been reading it. It's pretty I so I've been reading it. It's pretty I mean so it's amazing where these kids mean so it's amazing where these kids mean so it's amazing where these kids ended up. Some did end up in the UK, ended up. Some did end up in the UK, ended up. Some did end up in the UK, some were in Shanghai. I didn't even some were in Shanghai. I didn't even some were in Shanghai. I didn't even know that part of the story. Um some know that part of the story. Um some know that part of the story. Um some ended up in concentration camps and ended up in concentration camps and ended up in concentration camps and amazingly lived. And so it's been it's amazingly lived. And so it's been it's amazingly lived. And so it's been it's it's just been an interesting way to it's just been an interesting way to it's just been an interesting way to look at six stories that were all in

look at six stories that were all in look at six stories that were all in this advertisement this advertisement this advertisement um in line together and the reality of um in line together and the reality of um in line together and the reality of that, you know, is very sobering. that, you know, is very sobering. that, you know, is very sobering. Anyway, so it's been it's it's well Anyway, so it's been it's it's well Anyway, so it's been it's it's well done. It's it's really interesting where done. It's it's really interesting where done. It's it's really interesting where it goes and it's um it's so linked to it goes and it's um it's so linked to it goes and it's um it's so linked to him because it was his dad. Um and so him because it was his dad. Um and so him because it was his dad. Um and so you're hearing kind of through the eyes you're hearing kind of through the eyes you're hearing kind of through the eyes of a son who didn't know this about his of a son who didn't know this about his of a son who didn't know this about his father. His father ended up committing father. His father ended up committing father. His father ended up committing suicide later in life and he never suicide later in life and he never suicide later in life and he never actually had the conversations with his actually had the conversations with his actually had the conversations with his dad. So he did all this work afterwards. dad. So he did all this work afterwards. dad. So he did all this work afterwards. >> Wow. But but I have to say I have been >> Wow. But but I have to say I have been >> Wow. But but I have to say I have been reading a lot of old books and reading a lot of old books and reading a lot of old books and >> CS Lewis would be proud. >> CS Lewis would be proud. >> CS Lewis would be proud. >> If I could give uh uh an exhortation to >> If I could give uh uh an exhortation to >> If I could give uh uh an exhortation to writers in our age, it is to to not just writers in our age, it is to to not just writers in our age, it is to to not just take the time to write what is true, but take the time to write what is true, but take the time to write what is true, but to make it beautiful when you write it. to make it beautiful when you write it. to make it beautiful when you write it. Um I have to say I've been reading some Um I have to say I've been reading some Um I have to say I've been reading some this book. It's called future tenses this book. It's called future tenses this book. It's called future tenses future tenses of the blessed life by FB future tenses of the blessed life by FB future tenses of the blessed life by FB Meyer. Um, someone gave it to an old Meyer. Um, someone gave it to an old Meyer. Um, someone gave it to an old it's an old copy of the book. Someone it's an old copy of the book. Someone it's an old copy of the book. Someone gave it to me and I just slowly read it gave it to me and I just slowly read it gave it to me and I just slowly read it and it's good for my soul and I I'm and it's good for my soul and I I'm and it's good for my soul and I I'm trying to figure out what some of these trying to figure out what some of these trying to figure out what some of these older writers do so well. Um because older writers do so well. Um because older writers do so well. Um because they yes they're always speaking truth they yes they're always speaking truth they yes they're always speaking truth but they're doing it in such a way but they're doing it in such a way but they're doing it in such a way that's an old truth and I it feels fresh that's an old truth and I it feels fresh that's an old truth and I it feels fresh and I don't know that we're mass- and I don't know that we're mass- and I don't know that we're mass- prodducing everything these days and prodducing everything these days and prodducing everything these days and there's a lot of true stuff but it there's a lot of true stuff but it there's a lot of true stuff but it doesn't sing. Um and I I'd love some

doesn't sing. Um and I I'd love some doesn't sing. Um and I I'd love some more more more books that sing if I more more more books that sing if I more more more books that sing if I could if I could. could if I could. could if I could. >> You've got the poet you've got the poet >> You've got the poet you've got the poet >> You've got the poet you've got the poet in you. in you. in you. >> Yeah. I I like I like to feel something >> Yeah. I I like I like to feel something >> Yeah. I I like I like to feel something people. I want to, you know, be people. I want to, you know, be people. I want to, you know, be convinced but but with the beauty of convinced but but with the beauty of convinced but but with the beauty of something. Um, and and some writers and something. Um, and and some writers and something. Um, and and some writers and I mean the Puritans, I just think this, I mean the Puritans, I just think this, I mean the Puritans, I just think this, yeah, they're looking at nature all the yeah, they're looking at nature all the yeah, they're looking at nature all the time and so they're drawing from what is time and so they're drawing from what is time and so they're drawing from what is out there and making it so that you out there and making it so that you out there and making it so that you resonate with the truth of something resonate with the truth of something resonate with the truth of something differently. Like I mean, every time I differently. Like I mean, every time I differently. Like I mean, every time I think about sin, I'm like, Satan, he, think about sin, I'm like, Satan, he, think about sin, I'm like, Satan, he, you know, he hides he shows the bait and you know, he hides he shows the bait and you know, he hides he shows the bait and he hides the hook. I'm thinking it every he hides the hook. I'm thinking it every he hides the hook. I'm thinking it every time. I'm like, h it's and it it helps. time. I'm like, h it's and it it helps. time. I'm like, h it's and it it helps. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it helps you understand the >> You know, it helps you understand the >> You know, it helps you understand the odiousness of sin in a beautiful way. Um odiousness of sin in a beautiful way. Um odiousness of sin in a beautiful way. Um like he's just trying to trap you like like he's just trying to trap you like like he's just trying to trap you like and anyway, it it resonates. And so and anyway, it it resonates. And so and anyway, it it resonates. And so rather than just be like, "Sin is bad. rather than just be like, "Sin is bad. rather than just be like, "Sin is bad. Stop." That's how I feel like some of Stop." That's how I feel like some of Stop." That's how I feel like some of our modern day writing is. Sin's real our modern day writing is. Sin's real our modern day writing is. Sin's real bad. Don't do it. It does help me as a bad. Don't do it. It does help me as a bad. Don't do it. It does help me as a modern writer who doesn't always uh modern writer who doesn't always uh modern writer who doesn't always uh whose writing does not always sing to whose writing does not always sing to whose writing does not always sing to realize it's not that all books in the realize it's not that all books in the realize it's not that all books in the past were good. It's that we've chucked past were good. It's that we've chucked past were good. It's that we've chucked the bad ones.

the bad ones. the bad ones. >> And so there must be all sorts of >> And so there must be all sorts of >> And so there must be all sorts of libraries that were full of bad Puritan libraries that were full of bad Puritan libraries that were full of bad Puritan writings. writings. writings. >> You're right. You're right. >> You're right. You're right. >> You're right. You're right. >> But if you bring it down to like the 10 >> But if you bring it down to like the 10 >> But if you bring it down to like the 10 best, got pretty good list there. best, got pretty good list there. best, got pretty good list there. >> That's right. I think that's why so much >> That's right. I think that's why so much >> That's right. I think that's why so much in the digital life is curation. in the digital life is curation. in the digital life is curation. And that's a lot of the work that you And that's a lot of the work that you And that's a lot of the work that you and I do, including in our podcasts, is and I do, including in our podcasts, is and I do, including in our podcasts, is try to tell people, hey, I know it's try to tell people, hey, I know it's try to tell people, hey, I know it's hard. You're busy. You don't have time hard. You're busy. You don't have time hard. You're busy. You don't have time to read 50 books so that you can find to read 50 books so that you can find to read 50 books so that you can find one book. That's why we do things like one book. That's why we do things like one book. That's why we do things like TGC Book Awards and and do podcasts like TGC Book Awards and and do podcasts like TGC Book Awards and and do podcasts like this to say, "This book by Graham Tomlin this to say, "This book by Graham Tomlin this to say, "This book by Graham Tomlin was not the only book I read this year, was not the only book I read this year, was not the only book I read this year, but it was one that was most memorable but it was one that was most memorable but it was one that was most memorable to me." to me." to me." >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good. >> Any other books? Right. What are you I >> Any other books? Right. What are you I >> Any other books? Right. What are you I am excited about what you're working on. am excited about what you're working on. am excited about what you're working on. What are you working on? And I'm very What are you working on? And I'm very What are you working on? And I'm very excited about what you're working on. excited about what you're working on. excited about what you're working on. So, tell everyone. So, tell everyone. So, tell everyone. >> Yeah. Lord Lord willing in 2026 I'll >> Yeah. Lord Lord willing in 2026 I'll >> Yeah. Lord Lord willing in 2026 I'll finish the first draft of a book finish the first draft of a book finish the first draft of a book tentatively titled uh Churchill and tentatively titled uh Churchill and tentatively titled uh Churchill and Lewis for the salvation of the world. Um Lewis for the salvation of the world. Um Lewis for the salvation of the world. Um for some reason that I've not been able for some reason that I've not been able for some reason that I've not been able to quite understand yet. Um, Churchill to quite understand yet. Um, Churchill to quite understand yet. Um, Churchill and Lewis are two of the most popular and Lewis are two of the most popular and Lewis are two of the most popular and gifted and still read writers in the and gifted and still read writers in the and gifted and still read writers in the history of the English language. They history of the English language. They history of the English language. They were also writing at their peak at the were also writing at their peak at the were also writing at their peak at the same time through the same events and same time through the same events and same time through the same events and those of course would be the events of those of course would be the events of those of course would be the events of the Second World War.

the Second World War. the Second World War. And yet for some reason they're never And yet for some reason they're never And yet for some reason they're never mentioned in the same conversations. mentioned in the same conversations. mentioned in the same conversations. Um, one person put it to me as we always Um, one person put it to me as we always Um, one person put it to me as we always think of CS Lewis in black and white. think of CS Lewis in black and white. think of CS Lewis in black and white. He's a historical figure. Whereas we He's a historical figure. Whereas we He's a historical figure. Whereas we always think of um, so we think we think always think of um, so we think we think always think of um, so we think we think about Churchill as a historical figure. about Churchill as a historical figure. about Churchill as a historical figure. We think about CS Lewis as a figure of We think about CS Lewis as a figure of We think about CS Lewis as a figure of any era. And part that's because he's a any era. And part that's because he's a any era. And part that's because he's a fantasy writer and part it's because fantasy writer and part it's because fantasy writer and part it's because he's so good um, as a writer. his works he's so good um, as a writer. his works he's so good um, as a writer. his works aren't um linked to history like aren't um linked to history like aren't um linked to history like Churchill's I mean Churchill's so linked Churchill's I mean Churchill's so linked Churchill's I mean Churchill's so linked to historical moment Lewis you wouldn't to historical moment Lewis you wouldn't to historical moment Lewis you wouldn't you know Narnia you're not we don't we you know Narnia you're not we don't we you know Narnia you're not we don't we don't attach to a moment don't attach to a moment don't attach to a moment >> we don't but of course it does start >> we don't but of course it does start >> we don't but of course it does start with a historical it does event that's with a historical it does event that's with a historical it does event that's right right right >> at least the the lion witch in the >> at least the the lion witch in the >> at least the the lion witch in the wardrobe uh does so I guess that is part wardrobe uh does so I guess that is part wardrobe uh does so I guess that is part of what I'm trying to contribute to is of what I'm trying to contribute to is of what I'm trying to contribute to is an understanding of the chronology of an understanding of the chronology of an understanding of the chronology of Lewis's writings and their significance Lewis's writings and their significance Lewis's writings and their significance ificance. So if and I have written a ificance. So if and I have written a ificance. So if and I have written a little bit about this for TGC already, little bit about this for TGC already, little bit about this for TGC already, but if somebody told you that the first but if somebody told you that the first but if somebody told you that the first of his space trilogies came out on the of his space trilogies came out on the of his space trilogies came out on the you know basically the same time as the you know basically the same time as the you know basically the same time as the Munich agreement um 1938 and then the Munich agreement um 1938 and then the Munich agreement um 1938 and then the last one is 1945 last one is 1945 last one is 1945 um the same month the atomic bomb is um the same month the atomic bomb is um the same month the atomic bomb is dropped. Well, that would seem to be dropped. Well, that would seem to be dropped. Well, that would seem to be pretty significant information for pretty significant information for pretty significant information for somebody who's writing about whether we somebody who's writing about whether we somebody who's writing about whether we should be invading foreign planets, for should be invading foreign planets, for should be invading foreign planets, for example, and whether science should be

example, and whether science should be example, and whether science should be trusted to be able to tell us trusted to be able to tell us trusted to be able to tell us everything. I mean, that's the context, everything. I mean, that's the context, everything. I mean, that's the context, the space trilogy. I'm not the first the space trilogy. I'm not the first the space trilogy. I'm not the first person to point that out. person to point that out. person to point that out. >> A cohort on that space trilogy. I just >> A cohort on that space trilogy. I just >> A cohort on that space trilogy. I just finished it this year and like I'm just finished it this year and like I'm just finished it this year and like I'm just putting it out there. Can we have a TGC putting it out there. Can we have a TGC putting it out there. Can we have a TGC cohort working through Lewis's books? cohort working through Lewis's books? cohort working through Lewis's books? Yeah, it's a good idea Yeah, it's a good idea Yeah, it's a good idea >> because I left that space trilogy like >> because I left that space trilogy like >> because I left that space trilogy like what on earth is happening here? The what on earth is happening here? The what on earth is happening here? The bear just you know what bear just you know what bear just you know what >> for I mean there's a lot of stuff's >> for I mean there's a lot of stuff's >> for I mean there's a lot of stuff's >> Merlin and the bear. I'm sorry. I don't >> Merlin and the bear. I'm sorry. I don't >> Merlin and the bear. I'm sorry. I don't know what to do with either of those. know what to do with either of those. know what to do with either of those. >> It's like Santa showing up in Narnia. >> It's like Santa showing up in Narnia. >> It's like Santa showing up in Narnia. Lewis just does these things. Lewis just does these things. Lewis just does these things. >> This is why Tolken didn't like it. So >> This is why Tolken didn't like it. So >> This is why Tolken didn't like it. So this he didn't he didn't like it at all. this he didn't he didn't like it at all. this he didn't he didn't like it at all. Um, as terms of world building, I think Um, as terms of world building, I think Um, as terms of world building, I think we can say that Tolken is pretty better we can say that Tolken is pretty better we can say that Tolken is pretty better than Lewis in my take at least. Hot than Lewis in my take at least. Hot than Lewis in my take at least. Hot takes that'll get me in trouble maybe takes that'll get me in trouble maybe takes that'll get me in trouble maybe from some viewers and listeners. But I from some viewers and listeners. But I from some viewers and listeners. But I do think Melissa that that that third do think Melissa that that that third do think Melissa that that that third book just as an example if somebody book just as an example if somebody book just as an example if somebody tells you yeah it's basically a tells you yeah it's basically a tells you yeah it's basically a storyified version of the abolition of storyified version of the abolition of storyified version of the abolition of man and the inner ring.

man and the inner ring. man and the inner ring. >> Well, doesn't that make a little bit >> Well, doesn't that make a little bit >> Well, doesn't that make a little bit more sense more sense more sense >> then? Yeah. like the entire thing. Just >> then? Yeah. like the entire thing. Just >> then? Yeah. like the entire thing. Just go back and read the abolition of man, go back and read the abolition of man, go back and read the abolition of man, read the inner ring, smash them together read the inner ring, smash them together read the inner ring, smash them together with the with the conclusion to what he with the with the conclusion to what he with the with the conclusion to what he started with in 38 with the same main started with in 38 with the same main started with in 38 with the same main character, same three people primarily. character, same three people primarily. character, same three people primarily. That makes a little bit of sense. And That makes a little bit of sense. And That makes a little bit of sense. And then there's a bear and then there's then there's a bear and then there's then there's a bear and then there's Merlin. Merlin. Merlin. So, So, So, >> and Venus Venus is in there, too. I >> and Venus Venus is in there, too. I >> and Venus Venus is in there, too. I mean, there's a lot going on. mean, there's a lot going on. mean, there's a lot going on. >> I mean, you're talking about the the >> I mean, you're talking about the the >> I mean, you're talking about the the second book in there. Yeah. I mean second book in there. Yeah. I mean second book in there. Yeah. I mean you're you're it's it know it admittedly you're you're it's it know it admittedly you're you're it's it know it admittedly gets very confusing. I think people know gets very confusing. I think people know gets very confusing. I think people know in general that mere Christianity were in general that mere Christianity were in general that mere Christianity were talks during the Second World War. Okay, talks during the Second World War. Okay, talks during the Second World War. Okay, I think they know that. But do they do I think they know that. But do they do I think they know that. But do they do they understand all of the other things they understand all of the other things they understand all of the other things that he wrote during that war? The great that he wrote during that war? The great that he wrote during that war? The great divorce, the abolition of man, the inner divorce, the abolition of man, the inner divorce, the abolition of man, the inner ring. I mean on and on and on through ring. I mean on and on and on through ring. I mean on and on and on through there. Um, in fact, that clearly was the there. Um, in fact, that clearly was the there. Um, in fact, that clearly was the pinnacle of his apologetic work and the pinnacle of his apologetic work and the pinnacle of his apologetic work and the pinnacle of his literary output. Um, pinnacle of his literary output. Um, pinnacle of his literary output. Um, then you add on things there that are then you add on things there that are then you add on things there that are among the most moving things I've ever among the most moving things I've ever among the most moving things I've ever read, learning in wartime. Uh, learning read, learning in wartime. Uh, learning read, learning in wartime. Uh, learning in wartime is of course at the beginning in wartime is of course at the beginning in wartime is of course at the beginning of the war, which makes a lot more sense of the war, which makes a lot more sense of the war, which makes a lot more sense when you've understood where he was when you've understood where he was when you've understood where he was coming from in the first world war. It's coming from in the first world war. It's coming from in the first world war. It's basically autobiographical.

basically autobiographical. basically autobiographical. Um, but also he's drawing from Toltoy. Um, but also he's drawing from Toltoy. Um, but also he's drawing from Toltoy. Isn't it interesting? Okay. Toltoy is Isn't it interesting? Okay. Toltoy is Isn't it interesting? Okay. Toltoy is there. Toltoy comes up later for him in there. Toltoy comes up later for him in there. Toltoy comes up later for him in the inner ring as well. Well, Toltoy was the inner ring as well. Well, Toltoy was the inner ring as well. Well, Toltoy was one of the greatest if not the greatest one of the greatest if not the greatest one of the greatest if not the greatest writers of all time about war um and writers of all time about war um and writers of all time about war um and what it meant and what it did not mean. what it meant and what it did not mean. what it meant and what it did not mean. So that's very formative for him. And So that's very formative for him. And So that's very formative for him. And then he comes back later on living in then he comes back later on living in then he comes back later on living in the atomic age. Similar approach there. the atomic age. Similar approach there. the atomic age. Similar approach there. So the basic takeaway is intended to be So the basic takeaway is intended to be So the basic takeaway is intended to be when we think about our own sense of when we think about our own sense of when we think about our own sense of civilizational decline or even collapse civilizational decline or even collapse civilizational decline or even collapse Christianity, you know, we're in a Christianity, you know, we're in a Christianity, you know, we're in a post-christendom era, but we're in a post-christendom era, but we're in a post-christendom era, but we're in a post-enlightenment, you know, we're not post-enlightenment, you know, we're not post-enlightenment, you know, we're not in Pascal's age in either in either in Pascal's age in either in either in Pascal's age in either in either sense anymore. We're searching for sense anymore. We're searching for sense anymore. We're searching for what's next. what's next. what's next. So we have historical analoges. The So we have historical analoges. The So we have historical analoges. The thing about Churchill and Lewis is that thing about Churchill and Lewis is that thing about Churchill and Lewis is that they didn't have any tangible they didn't have any tangible they didn't have any tangible imminent reasons to think that their imminent reasons to think that their imminent reasons to think that their civilization, Western Christian civilization, Western Christian civilization, Western Christian civilization, would survive a conflict civilization, would survive a conflict civilization, would survive a conflict that was pretty much certainly in 1941 that was pretty much certainly in 1941 that was pretty much certainly in 1941 when they're going gang busters with all when they're going gang busters with all when they're going gang busters with all their writing and speeches and their writing and speeches and their writing and speeches and everything was really about a com was a everything was really about a com was a everything was really about a com was a contest between communism and fascism.

contest between communism and fascism. contest between communism and fascism. So, they didn't have any sense. I mean, So, they didn't have any sense. I mean, So, they didn't have any sense. I mean, imagine Lewis's writings if he had imagine Lewis's writings if he had imagine Lewis's writings if he had actually ended up like Bonhaofer. You actually ended up like Bonhaofer. You actually ended up like Bonhaofer. You never get Narnia as an example. But never get Narnia as an example. But never get Narnia as an example. But Oxford was the city that Churchill Oxford was the city that Churchill Oxford was the city that Churchill planned to make his capital if he'd planned to make his capital if he'd planned to make his capital if he'd taken England. Imagine England without taken England. Imagine England without taken England. Imagine England without without Churchill. Of course, you can't. without Churchill. Of course, you can't. without Churchill. Of course, you can't. But imagine Churchill's speeches if he But imagine Churchill's speeches if he But imagine Churchill's speeches if he loses. Well, they don't sound so great loses. Well, they don't sound so great loses. Well, they don't sound so great anymore. But he didn't know that they anymore. But he didn't know that they anymore. But he didn't know that they were going to be Churchill's famous war were going to be Churchill's famous war were going to be Churchill's famous war speeches. He didn't know that. He just speeches. He didn't know that. He just speeches. He didn't know that. He just knew that there was pretty the odds were knew that there was pretty the odds were knew that there was pretty the odds were not good. Um, and so I'm trying to not good. Um, and so I'm trying to not good. Um, and so I'm trying to derive a lot of lessons from these derive a lot of lessons from these derive a lot of lessons from these things. I find it interesting that things. I find it interesting that things. I find it interesting that Churchill was the most pessimistic about Churchill was the most pessimistic about Churchill was the most pessimistic about Hitler, but the most optimistic about Hitler, but the most optimistic about Hitler, but the most optimistic about Britain. Britain. Britain. >> He got a lot of things wrong, but he was >> He got a lot of things wrong, but he was >> He got a lot of things wrong, but he was dead right on those two things. And it's dead right on those two things. And it's dead right on those two things. And it's amazing what that can cover for and amazing what that can cover for and amazing what that can cover for and everything else. So, you don't look back everything else. So, you don't look back everything else. So, you don't look back on these guys and think they're right on these guys and think they're right on these guys and think they're right about everything and they're very about everything and they're very about everything and they're very different from each other. In one clear different from each other. In one clear different from each other. In one clear sense, Churchill's focused on this world sense, Churchill's focused on this world sense, Churchill's focused on this world and Lewis is focused on the next world.

and Lewis is focused on the next world. and Lewis is focused on the next world. And that's an interesting path that we And that's an interesting path that we And that's an interesting path that we have to choose. And I don't say that have to choose. And I don't say that have to choose. And I don't say that lightly because without Churchill does lightly because without Churchill does lightly because without Churchill does Lewis survive. Lewis survive. Lewis survive. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But what Churchill fought for, >> But what Churchill fought for, >> But what Churchill fought for, especially the British Empire dissolved especially the British Empire dissolved especially the British Empire dissolved and what Lewis fought for was of course and what Lewis fought for was of course and what Lewis fought for was of course an eternal kingdom. So lot of lot to an eternal kingdom. So lot of lot to an eternal kingdom. So lot of lot to work through there. I've got a few more work through there. I've got a few more work through there. I've got a few more months to be working on it. Listen, I months to be working on it. Listen, I months to be working on it. Listen, I mean you always have a lot of books mean you always have a lot of books mean you always have a lot of books yourself in the works. Of course, you're yourself in the works. Of course, you're yourself in the works. Of course, you're overseeing our events. We've got a big overseeing our events. We've got a big overseeing our events. We've got a big one coming up this year as we always do. one coming up this year as we always do. one coming up this year as we always do. Give us a little preview. Give us a little preview. Give us a little preview. >> Yeah, we've got TGCW26. >> Yeah, we've got TGCW26. >> Yeah, we've got TGCW26. It's our National Women's Conference It's our National Women's Conference It's our National Women's Conference coming up and it's on Psalms and turning coming up and it's on Psalms and turning coming up and it's on Psalms and turning our eyes to um the different genres of our eyes to um the different genres of our eyes to um the different genres of Psalms, how they help us turn in faith Psalms, how they help us turn in faith Psalms, how they help us turn in faith to to Christ and to God and yeah, with to to Christ and to God and yeah, with to to Christ and to God and yeah, with all of our emotions. um whether it's all of our emotions. um whether it's all of our emotions. um whether it's lament, whether it's wisdom, there are lament, whether it's wisdom, there are lament, whether it's wisdom, there are psalms of wisdom, there are, you know, psalms of wisdom, there are, you know, psalms of wisdom, there are, you know, psalms of praise, there are psalms of psalms of praise, there are psalms of psalms of praise, there are psalms of joy. Um but then, you know, it's helpful joy. Um but then, you know, it's helpful joy. Um but then, you know, it's helpful to see the range of emotions offered in to see the range of emotions offered in to see the range of emotions offered in the psalms. So, we're looking forward to the psalms. So, we're looking forward to the psalms. So, we're looking forward to that. Um, the thing I'm probably most that. Um, the thing I'm probably most that. Um, the thing I'm probably most excited about, Mike and I have worked excited about, Mike and I have worked excited about, Mike and I have worked together on a family devotional and I'm together on a family devotional and I'm together on a family devotional and I'm really excited about it because I think really excited about it because I think really excited about it because I think it's pretty I think it's unique in that it's pretty I think it's unique in that it's pretty I think it's unique in that um the devotionals are actually for the um the devotionals are actually for the um the devotionals are actually for the parent and I worked on Mike wrote those parent and I worked on Mike wrote those parent and I worked on Mike wrote those on Mark. So, uh, what we hear the most on Mark. So, uh, what we hear the most on Mark. So, uh, what we hear the most about why we don't do family devotions.

about why we don't do family devotions. about why we don't do family devotions. I think a lot of people don't feel I think a lot of people don't feel I think a lot of people don't feel equipped to do them. And so, we wanted equipped to do them. And so, we wanted equipped to do them. And so, we wanted to, um, Deuteronomy 6 says, you know, to, um, Deuteronomy 6 says, you know, to, um, Deuteronomy 6 says, you know, you love the Lord your God with all your you love the Lord your God with all your you love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and strength. Um, these heart, soul, and strength. Um, these heart, soul, and strength. Um, these words that I command you are to be on words that I command you are to be on words that I command you are to be on your heart, then it's teach them to your your heart, then it's teach them to your your heart, then it's teach them to your children. And so the goal with what children. And so the goal with what children. And so the goal with what we've done is to allow the parent to be we've done is to allow the parent to be we've done is to allow the parent to be learning through the Gospel of Mark so learning through the Gospel of Mark so learning through the Gospel of Mark so that they're equipped well to ask good that they're equipped well to ask good that they're equipped well to ask good family devotional questions. And then I family devotional questions. And then I family devotional questions. And then I wrote all the questions for younger wrote all the questions for younger wrote all the questions for younger children, for older children because we children, for older children because we children, for older children because we were a family who had a six-year spread. were a family who had a six-year spread. were a family who had a six-year spread. So I often had an elementary, middle So I often had an elementary, middle So I often had an elementary, middle school, and high schooler at family school, and high schooler at family school, and high schooler at family devotions in the morning. How do you do devotions in the morning. How do you do devotions in the morning. How do you do this? And you know, I mean, my heart is this? And you know, I mean, my heart is this? And you know, I mean, my heart is education and um helping people learn education and um helping people learn education and um helping people learn and writing curriculum. So, it's I'm and writing curriculum. So, it's I'm and writing curriculum. So, it's I'm really excited about it because uh I I really excited about it because uh I I really excited about it because uh I I heard Mike teach through all these the heard Mike teach through all these the heard Mike teach through all these the Gospel of Mark over two years at an RTS Gospel of Mark over two years at an RTS Gospel of Mark over two years at an RTS women's Bible study and man, I was not a women's Bible study and man, I was not a women's Bible study and man, I was not a big fan of Mark. I I mean, it's the big fan of Mark. I I mean, it's the big fan of Mark. I I mean, it's the gospel. I love it. I was always been a gospel. I love it. I was always been a gospel. I love it. I was always been a fan of John.

fan of John. fan of John. >> But Mark, there's no there's no fanfare. >> But Mark, there's no there's no fanfare. >> But Mark, there's no there's no fanfare. There's no frrills, you know, it's just There's no frrills, you know, it's just There's no frrills, you know, it's just kind of straight up. kind of straight up. kind of straight up. >> And now, man, I love it. I just after >> And now, man, I love it. I just after >> And now, man, I love it. I just after studying in depth, I I was like, "Oh, studying in depth, I I was like, "Oh, studying in depth, I I was like, "Oh, wow. This is a great place to start with wow. This is a great place to start with wow. This is a great place to start with your kids. is a great I I've just you your kids. is a great I I've just you your kids. is a great I I've just you know the thought of man what can happen know the thought of man what can happen know the thought of man what can happen around the family dinner table if I around the family dinner table if I around the family dinner table if I could just say to parents could just say to parents could just say to parents don't worry that your kids's going to don't worry that your kids's going to don't worry that your kids's going to play sports worry that they know the play sports worry that they know the play sports worry that they know the gospel of Mark worry that they know the gospel of Mark worry that they know the gospel of Mark worry that they know the scriptures you know uh and and it takes scriptures you know uh and and it takes scriptures you know uh and and it takes time time time >> right worries >> right worries >> right worries >> yeah have the right concerns and so I >> yeah have the right concerns and so I >> yeah have the right concerns and so I look back as all of my kids have look back as all of my kids have look back as all of my kids have launched and if I could say I would the launched and if I could say I would the launched and if I could say I would the things I would do again it would be things I would do again it would be things I would do again it would be those morning time conversations about those morning time conversations about those morning time conversations about God's word. Don't, you know, I don't God's word. Don't, you know, I don't God's word. Don't, you know, I don't neglect it with your kids. That's my my neglect it with your kids. That's my my neglect it with your kids. That's my my my big cheerleader advice as a big my big cheerleader advice as a big my big cheerleader advice as a big sister in the in the church to say um sister in the in the church to say um sister in the in the church to say um those are some of the most valuable those are some of the most valuable those are some of the most valuable conversations you'll have as a family conversations you'll have as a family conversations you'll have as a family and they form the basis for everything and they form the basis for everything and they form the basis for everything else. So, as you can tell, I'm excited else. So, as you can tell, I'm excited else. So, as you can tell, I'm excited about it. Um and hope it will just be a about it. Um and hope it will just be a about it. Um and hope it will just be a springboard to get more families talking springboard to get more families talking springboard to get more families talking about God's word together.

about God's word together. about God's word together. >> Amen. Mark is what our family reads >> Amen. Mark is what our family reads >> Amen. Mark is what our family reads through together. Um it's a great one. through together. Um it's a great one. through together. Um it's a great one. Feeding of the 4,000. Feeding of the 4,000. Feeding of the 4,000. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just was one of our last ones in there. >> Just was one of our last ones in there. >> Just was one of our last ones in there. >> Well, I mean, tell us a little bit about >> Well, I mean, tell us a little bit about >> Well, I mean, tell us a little bit about um I mean I I think Melissa, if um I mean I I think Melissa, if um I mean I I think Melissa, if if folks are still watching and they're if folks are still watching and they're if folks are still watching and they're listening now, um I just want to say listening now, um I just want to say listening now, um I just want to say thank you. And I also want to say you're thank you. And I also want to say you're thank you. And I also want to say you're probably already donating to TGC in some probably already donating to TGC in some probably already donating to TGC in some way or another. So, way or another. So, way or another. So, >> keep hug on this long. >> keep hug on this long. >> keep hug on this long. >> Exactly. Exactly. If if you've stuck >> Exactly. Exactly. If if you've stuck >> Exactly. Exactly. If if you've stuck with us through all these things, then with us through all these things, then with us through all these things, then you probably are also already a generous you probably are also already a generous you probably are also already a generous and grateful donor to TGC. So, we want and grateful donor to TGC. So, we want and grateful donor to TGC. So, we want to say thank you for you. Um, if if to say thank you for you. Um, if if to say thank you for you. Um, if if that's the case or at least you're that's the case or at least you're that's the case or at least you're somebody who you're excited to come to somebody who you're excited to come to somebody who you're excited to come to our women's conference, you're coming our women's conference, you're coming our women's conference, you're coming back to our national conference in 27 or back to our national conference in 27 or back to our national conference in 27 or you're signing up for those cohorts. you're signing up for those cohorts. you're signing up for those cohorts. Melissa's already planned one right Melissa's already planned one right Melissa's already planned one right here. Melissa's got great ideas in case here. Melissa's got great ideas in case here. Melissa's got great ideas in case you guys didn't know. So already got one you guys didn't know. So already got one you guys didn't know. So already got one about studying Lewis's works. We about studying Lewis's works. We about studying Lewis's works. We actually do have a cohort that we're actually do have a cohort that we're actually do have a cohort that we're planning on the cultural apologists planning on the cultural apologists planning on the cultural apologists through history which will include Lewis through history which will include Lewis through history which will include Lewis but not a focus necessarily um on all but not a focus necessarily um on all but not a focus necessarily um on all that. But we should do one of that on that. But we should do one of that on that. But we should do one of that on the I think those reading cohorts are the I think those reading cohorts are the I think those reading cohorts are really good. But um yeah, I think uh really good. But um yeah, I think uh really good. But um yeah, I think uh well let's just maybe tell them a little well let's just maybe tell them a little well let's just maybe tell them a little bit about other ways they can support bit about other ways they can support bit about other ways they can support TGC and some of the other things maybe TGC and some of the other things maybe TGC and some of the other things maybe that we're doing that they don't know that we're doing that they don't know that we're doing that they don't know anything about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I anything about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I anything about. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I think I mean what we're so grateful for

think I mean what we're so grateful for think I mean what we're so grateful for I mean TGC really does run on the the I mean TGC really does run on the the I mean TGC really does run on the the gifts of our donors. I mean people gifts of our donors. I mean people gifts of our donors. I mean people probably don't know that. Um it's a huge probably don't know that. Um it's a huge probably don't know that. Um it's a huge way we get to do the work we do. Um and way we get to do the work we do. Um and way we get to do the work we do. Um and as Colin will say all the time, our our as Colin will say all the time, our our as Colin will say all the time, our our hope and desire is not that you um come hope and desire is not that you um come hope and desire is not that you um come to TGC to to find your community or your to TGC to to find your community or your to TGC to to find your community or your life, but our goal is to help the local life, but our goal is to help the local life, but our goal is to help the local church. help the local church pastor in church. help the local church pastor in church. help the local church pastor in particular, you know, but other leaders particular, you know, but other leaders particular, you know, but other leaders in the church um flourish and um just in the church um flourish and um just in the church um flourish and um just have encouragement on a on a daily have encouragement on a on a daily have encouragement on a on a daily basis. So, that's what we're trying to basis. So, that's what we're trying to basis. So, that's what we're trying to do um through the different things we do um through the different things we do um through the different things we do, whether it's podcast, all those do, whether it's podcast, all those do, whether it's podcast, all those things. Ways you can help. You can things. Ways you can help. You can things. Ways you can help. You can support the work of TGC with a onetime support the work of TGC with a onetime support the work of TGC with a onetime gift. You can become a monthly donor, gift. You can become a monthly donor, gift. You can become a monthly donor, tgc.orgg. you can go check out there, but you can you can go check out there, but you can also just support by leaving reviews on also just support by leaving reviews on also just support by leaving reviews on podcasts, sharing our work. Like that's podcasts, sharing our work. Like that's podcasts, sharing our work. Like that's a huge way, you know, pass on articles a huge way, you know, pass on articles a huge way, you know, pass on articles that are helping you to other people. Um that are helping you to other people. Um that are helping you to other people. Um it really supports the work that we're it really supports the work that we're it really supports the work that we're doing and we're so appreciative. Um we doing and we're so appreciative. Um we doing and we're so appreciative. Um we really are. It uh we're we're thankful really are. It uh we're we're thankful really are. It uh we're we're thankful that we get to do what we do. It's a that we get to do what we do. It's a that we get to do what we do. It's a joy.

joy. joy. >> Yeah. If you if you care about what's >> Yeah. If you if you care about what's >> Yeah. If you if you care about what's happening in Gen Z that they come to happening in Gen Z that they come to happening in Gen Z that they come to know Christ then supporting TGC is a way know Christ then supporting TGC is a way know Christ then supporting TGC is a way to do that. One of our biggest major to do that. One of our biggest major to do that. One of our biggest major we've been talking about this but one of we've been talking about this but one of we've been talking about this but one of the biggest undertakings we've ever done the biggest undertakings we've ever done the biggest undertakings we've ever done at the Gospel Coalition certainly at the at the Gospel Coalition certainly at the at the Gospel Coalition certainly at the Keller Center is our upcoming making Keller Center is our upcoming making Keller Center is our upcoming making sense of us group study curriculum. This sense of us group study curriculum. This sense of us group study curriculum. This is evangelism. This is disciplehip. is evangelism. This is disciplehip. is evangelism. This is disciplehip. that's aimed especially at Gen Z, filmed that's aimed especially at Gen Z, filmed that's aimed especially at Gen Z, filmed with Keller Center fellows around with Keller Center fellows around with Keller Center fellows around different locations in New York City, different locations in New York City, different locations in New York City, helping people to understand the stories helping people to understand the stories helping people to understand the stories that are shaping us, but also how those that are shaping us, but also how those that are shaping us, but also how those stories fall short compared to the story stories fall short compared to the story stories fall short compared to the story of all stories in the gospel of Jesus of all stories in the gospel of Jesus of all stories in the gospel of Jesus Christ. So, that's one way you care Christ. So, that's one way you care Christ. So, that's one way you care about Gen Z. Another way that your about Gen Z. Another way that your about Gen Z. Another way that your support of TGC directly benefits us is support of TGC directly benefits us is support of TGC directly benefits us is if you want to see the next generation if you want to see the next generation if you want to see the next generation um discipled in how good and bad ways to um discipled in how good and bad ways to um discipled in how good and bad ways to use AI um ethical ways that we should use AI um ethical ways that we should use AI um ethical ways that we should implement or non-ethical ways that we implement or non-ethical ways that we implement or non-ethical ways that we should avoid. Not only that, but even should avoid. Not only that, but even should avoid. Not only that, but even shaping the very products themselves, shaping the very products themselves, shaping the very products themselves, the regulations, the the efforts, the the regulations, the the efforts, the the regulations, the the efforts, the conversations that we're having at the conversations that we're having at the conversations that we're having at the highest levels right now related to AI highest levels right now related to AI highest levels right now related to AI are both encouraging to know that we are both encouraging to know that we are both encouraging to know that we have a seat at the table, but also a have a seat at the table, but also a have a seat at the table, but also a little bit scary to know that um there's little bit scary to know that um there's little bit scary to know that um there's a lot that's still up for grabs. But a lot that's still up for grabs. But a lot that's still up for grabs. But that's when you're when you're that's when you're when you're that's when you're when you're contributing to TGC, that's something contributing to TGC, that's something contributing to TGC, that's something that you help us to be able to do.

that you help us to be able to do. that you help us to be able to do. Melissa mentioned, I mean, it's about Melissa mentioned, I mean, it's about Melissa mentioned, I mean, it's about half of the money that we bring in is half of the money that we bring in is half of the money that we bring in is coming from donations. So again, it's coming from donations. So again, it's coming from donations. So again, it's what really makes all this stuff what really makes all this stuff what really makes all this stuff possible. If you want to support or possible. If you want to support or possible. If you want to support or continue to see, especially in the AI continue to see, especially in the AI continue to see, especially in the AI era, flourishing full Bible commentary era, flourishing full Bible commentary era, flourishing full Bible commentary available for anybody who reads and available for anybody who reads and available for anybody who reads and studies the Bible, whether they're studies the Bible, whether they're studies the Bible, whether they're teaching in some country, um, where they teaching in some country, um, where they teaching in some country, um, where they don't have a lot of access to books, don't have a lot of access to books, don't have a lot of access to books, which is very common, access to which is very common, access to which is very common, access to internet, but not books, especially internet, but not books, especially internet, but not books, especially through mobile devices. That's one of through mobile devices. That's one of through mobile devices. That's one of the I mean a free Bible commentary is the I mean a free Bible commentary is the I mean a free Bible commentary is one of the best places to be able to one of the best places to be able to one of the best places to be able to help people like that. Not to mention help people like that. Not to mention help people like that. Not to mention any student group that's getting any student group that's getting any student group that's getting together and saying, "Hey, let's study together and saying, "Hey, let's study together and saying, "Hey, let's study Romans together." Wonderful. The Gospel Romans together." Wonderful. The Gospel Romans together." Wonderful. The Gospel Coalition has a trusted free commentary Coalition has a trusted free commentary Coalition has a trusted free commentary available online to be able to use in available online to be able to use in available online to be able to use in your preparation for that or your small your preparation for that or your small your preparation for that or your small group or your Sunday school you're group or your Sunday school you're group or your Sunday school you're teaching or anything like that. And then teaching or anything like that. And then teaching or anything like that. And then as you mentioned there as a digital as you mentioned there as a digital as you mentioned there as a digital ministry, we're always convictionally ministry, we're always convictionally ministry, we're always convictionally trying to point people back to those trying to point people back to those trying to point people back to those relationships and back to the church. relationships and back to the church. relationships and back to the church. One of my favorite ways that we do that One of my favorite ways that we do that One of my favorite ways that we do that is through our church directory. Our is through our church directory. Our is through our church directory. Our church directory is the largest one that church directory is the largest one that church directory is the largest one that I'm aware of, but we're overhauling it I'm aware of, but we're overhauling it I'm aware of, but we're overhauling it to make it even more helpful to people.

to make it even more helpful to people. to make it even more helpful to people. We expect that to debut in 2026. We expect that to debut in 2026. We expect that to debut in 2026. Um, but that's one way you support. It's Um, but that's one way you support. It's Um, but that's one way you support. It's about as I just love it, Melissa, about as I just love it, Melissa, about as I just love it, Melissa, because it's so practical. It's just, because it's so practical. It's just, because it's so practical. It's just, hey, a friend of mine is moving to hey, a friend of mine is moving to hey, a friend of mine is moving to another town. Do you know of a good another town. Do you know of a good another town. Do you know of a good church that you can recommend? Of church that you can recommend? Of church that you can recommend? Of course. And we also know based on some course. And we also know based on some course. And we also know based on some surveys and data that we've run and surveys and data that we've run and surveys and data that we've run and we've published that that's the main we've published that that's the main we've published that that's the main reason people fall away from the church reason people fall away from the church reason people fall away from the church is cuz they just move. They don't find a is cuz they just move. They don't find a is cuz they just move. They don't find a new church. So if you want to help push new church. So if you want to help push new church. So if you want to help push back and evangelize and disciple, one of back and evangelize and disciple, one of back and evangelize and disciple, one of the best ways to do it is simply have a the best ways to do it is simply have a the best ways to do it is simply have a good functioning church directory that good functioning church directory that good functioning church directory that people know about. So that's one thing people know about. So that's one thing people know about. So that's one thing that you're you're um your finances that you're you're um your finances that you're you're um your finances support there as well. So um Melissa, support there as well. So um Melissa, support there as well. So um Melissa, before we go, do you have a favorite before we go, do you have a favorite before we go, do you have a favorite thing this year? Well, maybe the thing this year? Well, maybe the thing this year? Well, maybe the favorite thing should be we just end favorite thing should be we just end favorite thing should be we just end this episode because people are gonna this episode because people are gonna this episode because people are gonna >> That's fair enough. That's fair enough. >> That's fair enough. That's fair enough. >> That's fair enough. That's fair enough. That's fair enough. I'll stick with my That's fair enough. I'll stick with my That's fair enough. I'll stick with my Graham Tomlin uh recommendation on Graham Tomlin uh recommendation on Graham Tomlin uh recommendation on Pascal. That was clearly my Pascal. That was clearly my Pascal. That was clearly my >> my favorite thing. That was That was >> my favorite thing. That was That was >> my favorite thing. That was That was fun. Well, anyway, fun. Well, anyway, fun. Well, anyway, >> so you got to give me something >> so you got to give me something >> so you got to give me something something food preparation. Anything in something food preparation. Anything in something food preparation. Anything in here? Gift to recommend?

here? Gift to recommend? here? Gift to recommend? >> I don't know. Well, how about how about >> I don't know. Well, how about how about >> I don't know. Well, how about how about how about Okay, let's be a shill about how about Okay, let's be a shill about how about Okay, let's be a shill about this. Your own you have you have a this. Your own you have you have a this. Your own you have you have a Christmas book. Christmas book. Christmas book. >> Oh, thanks. No, I do love my I I do and >> Oh, thanks. No, I do love my I I do and >> Oh, thanks. No, I do love my I I do and I can say this is an honest truth. I I can say this is an honest truth. I I can say this is an honest truth. I give my kids a new Christmas book every give my kids a new Christmas book every give my kids a new Christmas book every year. So, it's called The Gift of All year. So, it's called The Gift of All year. So, it's called The Gift of All Gifts. It talks about why we give gifts Gifts. It talks about why we give gifts Gifts. It talks about why we give gifts at Christmas because that is one of at Christmas because that is one of at Christmas because that is one of those things that can Christmas can those things that can Christmas can those things that can Christmas can become all about the gifts and I wanted become all about the gifts and I wanted become all about the gifts and I wanted a book that actually teaches kids why we a book that actually teaches kids why we a book that actually teaches kids why we do this. So that's what it's about. And do this. So that's what it's about. And do this. So that's what it's about. And it's it it's in rhyming. It's fun to it's it it's in rhyming. It's fun to it's it it's in rhyming. It's fun to read. read. read. >> This is very gifted. >> This is very gifted. >> This is very gifted. >> Very gifted at that. Thanks for sharing >> Very gifted at that. Thanks for sharing >> Very gifted at that. Thanks for sharing that gift, Melissa, with with the rest that gift, Melissa, with with the rest that gift, Melissa, with with the rest of us. Well, thanks for persevering, of us. Well, thanks for persevering, of us. Well, thanks for persevering, everybody out there, you're watching on everybody out there, you're watching on everybody out there, you're watching on YouTube or wherever and listening to YouTube or wherever and listening to YouTube or wherever and listening to Gospel Bound and and the deep dish. Your Gospel Bound and and the deep dish. Your Gospel Bound and and the deep dish. Your comments when I run into people and or comments when I run into people and or comments when I run into people and or you send an email or you come up to us you send an email or you come up to us you send an email or you come up to us at church or anything like that is at church or anything like that is at church or anything like that is really encouraging. It actually helps really encouraging. It actually helps really encouraging. It actually helps shape things because then we know, okay, shape things because then we know, okay, shape things because then we know, okay, that's that's working or that's not that's that's working or that's not that's that's working or that's not working. That's helping people, that's working. That's helping people, that's working. That's helping people, that's not helping people. Really appreciate not helping people. Really appreciate not helping people. Really appreciate that. Must already mentioned, you can that. Must already mentioned, you can that. Must already mentioned, you can help by rating, reviewing, recommending help by rating, reviewing, recommending help by rating, reviewing, recommending our podcast. If you go to tgc.org/give, our podcast. If you go to tgc.org/give, our podcast. If you go to tgc.org/give, that's the best way you can be able to that's the best way you can be able to that's the best way you can be able to support onetime gift, monthly gift, even support onetime gift, monthly gift, even support onetime gift, monthly gift, even $25 a month. It's extremely helpful to $25 a month. It's extremely helpful to $25 a month. It's extremely helpful to us. So, thank you for your generous us. So, thank you for your generous us. So, thank you for your generous support there. Um, we'll just end say support there. Um, we'll just end say support there. Um, we'll just end say merry Christmas, happy new year. Lord merry Christmas, happy new year. Lord merry Christmas, happy new year. Lord willing, we'll do this next year. We're willing, we'll do this next year. We're willing, we'll do this next year. We're going to hope it's also not a super

going to hope it's also not a super going to hope it's also not a super newsworthy year. Those are the better newsworthy year. Those are the better newsworthy year. Those are the better years. years. years. >> We still spend an hour and 40 minutes on >> We still spend an hour and 40 minutes on >> We still spend an hour and 40 minutes on a non-news year. Like, just prepare, a non-news year. Like, just prepare, a non-news year. Like, just prepare, prepare. prepare. prepare. >> I I am justly rebuked for that, Melissa. >> I I am justly rebuked for that, Melissa. >> I I am justly rebuked for that, Melissa. Thank you. All right, you guys are Thank you. All right, you guys are Thank you. All right, you guys are commuting. You're you're washing dishes, commuting. You're you're washing dishes, commuting. You're you're washing dishes, you're you're working out, all the ways you're you're working out, all the ways you're you're working out, all the ways you you join us. We don't take it for you you join us. We don't take it for you you join us. We don't take it for granted. We really appreciate it. Merry granted. We really appreciate it. Merry granted. We really appreciate it. Merry Christmas. Happy New Year. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.