Music and Liturgy in the Local Church [TGC Podcast Ep. 319]

Well, let's go ahead and and begin the Well, let's go ahead and and begin the formal part of the panel. Maybe we can formal part of the panel. Maybe we can formal part of the panel. Maybe we can have a chance for questions at the end. have a chance for questions at the end. have a chance for questions at the end. I don't know. We have a limited time, I don't know. We have a limited time, I don't know. We have a limited time, just 45 minutes. I'd like to open with just 45 minutes. I'd like to open with just 45 minutes. I'd like to open with prayer. I'll introduce uh who we've got prayer. I'll introduce uh who we've got prayer. I'll introduce uh who we've got here with us and then I've got a few here with us and then I've got a few here with us and then I've got a few questions for them. Let's pray together. questions for them. Let's pray together. questions for them. Let's pray together. Father, we do thank you for uh the music Father, we do thank you for uh the music Father, we do thank you for uh the music that you've given our souls because of that you've given our souls because of that you've given our souls because of the revelation of your being and your the revelation of your being and your the revelation of your being and your works, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As works, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As works, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. As we think in this time together in this we think in this time together in this we think in this time together in this room uh about the music of your church, room uh about the music of your church, room uh about the music of your church, the worship of your church, the ways in the worship of your church, the ways in the worship of your church, the ways in which we express the praise of your which we express the praise of your which we express the praise of your glorious grace, please give us wisdom in glorious grace, please give us wisdom in glorious grace, please give us wisdom in this conversation that all of us may be this conversation that all of us may be this conversation that all of us may be an encouragement one to the other that an encouragement one to the other that an encouragement one to the other that our worship may please you in every our worship may please you in every our worship may please you in every aspect. So we pray all of this in the aspect. So we pray all of this in the aspect. So we pray all of this in the blessed name of Jesus Christ, the head blessed name of Jesus Christ, the head blessed name of Jesus Christ, the head of the church. Amen. of the church. Amen. of the church. Amen. Well, let me introduce you know Keith Well, let me introduce you know Keith Well, let me introduce you know Keith Getty. Uh he and Kristen have been Getty. Uh he and Kristen have been Getty. Uh he and Kristen have been singing and leading us in singing singing and leading us in singing singing and leading us in singing through their hymnwriting for years and through their hymnwriting for years and through their hymnwriting for years and years. Keith, we're just so grateful for years. Keith, we're just so grateful for years. Keith, we're just so grateful for your ministry and their generosity uh to your ministry and their generosity uh to your ministry and their generosity uh to continue to give their gifts to so many.

continue to give their gifts to so many. continue to give their gifts to so many. Uh Keith, last time I was in your house, Uh Keith, last time I was in your house, Uh Keith, last time I was in your house, you had about 20 musicians in there at you had about 20 musicians in there at you had about 20 musicians in there at your invitation. and you are all just your invitation. and you are all just your invitation. and you are all just creating together, fellowshipping creating together, fellowshipping creating together, fellowshipping together, and really enjoying a together, and really enjoying a together, and really enjoying a community of of uh worship leaders, and community of of uh worship leaders, and community of of uh worship leaders, and it's great to have you on this panel. it's great to have you on this panel. it's great to have you on this panel. Matt Boswell who planted the Trails Matt Boswell who planted the Trails Matt Boswell who planted the Trails Church uh in Selen, Texas uh some years Church uh in Selen, Texas uh some years Church uh in Selen, Texas uh some years ago, who is also a prolific uh hymn and ago, who is also a prolific uh hymn and ago, who is also a prolific uh hymn and songwriter, a wonderful preacher and songwriter, a wonderful preacher and songwriter, a wonderful preacher and pastor, more recently named the uh pastor, more recently named the uh pastor, more recently named the uh professor of worship ministry at professor of worship ministry at professor of worship ministry at Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. Midwestern Baptist Theological Seminary. So, I know several of you are very happy So, I know several of you are very happy So, I know several of you are very happy about that. Uh, and I want to thank about that. Uh, and I want to thank about that. Uh, and I want to thank Keith for providing the the third song Keith for providing the the third song Keith for providing the the third song of Easter Sunday at our church, uh, The of Easter Sunday at our church, uh, The of Easter Sunday at our church, uh, The Power of the Cross. And I want to thank Power of the Cross. And I want to thank Power of the Cross. And I want to thank uh, Matt for providing the second song uh, Matt for providing the second song uh, Matt for providing the second song that we sang at my church, uh, wondrous that we sang at my church, uh, wondrous that we sang at my church, uh, wondrous mystery. What's the mystery. What's the mystery. What's the um, yeah, come behold the wondrous um, yeah, come behold the wondrous um, yeah, come behold the wondrous mystery. And, uh, Charles Wesley's not mystery. And, uh, Charles Wesley's not mystery. And, uh, Charles Wesley's not here, so I can't thank him for all all here, so I can't thank him for all all here, so I can't thank him for all all hell the or Christ the Lord is risen hell the or Christ the Lord is risen hell the or Christ the Lord is risen today. But the three of you did a great today. But the three of you did a great today. But the three of you did a great job for us on Sunday. And uh Lianigan uh job for us on Sunday. And uh Lianigan uh job for us on Sunday. And uh Lianigan uh we didn't sing one of your songs on we didn't sing one of your songs on we didn't sing one of your songs on Sunday. Sorry about that. Lian Duncan is Sunday. Sorry about that. Lian Duncan is Sunday. Sorry about that. Lian Duncan is chancellor of Reformed Theological chancellor of Reformed Theological chancellor of Reformed Theological Seminary with its multiple campuses.

Seminary with its multiple campuses. Seminary with its multiple campuses. He's also a professor of systematic and He's also a professor of systematic and He's also a professor of systematic and historical theology. He serves on our historical theology. He serves on our historical theology. He serves on our board and has written uh a bit uh and board and has written uh a bit uh and board and has written uh a bit uh and taught a lot about worship. So Lig, taught a lot about worship. So Lig, taught a lot about worship. So Lig, let's start with you. uh tell us why let's start with you. uh tell us why let's start with you. uh tell us why this subject of music and liturgy in the this subject of music and liturgy in the this subject of music and liturgy in the church is important for us to discuss. church is important for us to discuss. church is important for us to discuss. Let me um specify the question a little Let me um specify the question a little Let me um specify the question a little bit more. Why why is it important that bit more. Why why is it important that bit more. Why why is it important that we talk about what we do together on the we talk about what we do together on the we talk about what we do together on the Lord's day week after week? Why is it Lord's day week after week? Why is it Lord's day week after week? Why is it important that we talk about what the important that we talk about what the important that we talk about what the congregation does when it gathers to congregation does when it gathers to congregation does when it gathers to give God praise on the Lord's day? And give God praise on the Lord's day? And give God praise on the Lord's day? And then why is the music that supports the then why is the music that supports the then why is the music that supports the congregation's singing of that praise to congregation's singing of that praise to congregation's singing of that praise to God important? Why is the structure of God important? Why is the structure of God important? Why is the structure of what we do in that public gathering what we do in that public gathering what we do in that public gathering important? It's important for at least important? It's important for at least important? It's important for at least four reasons. Number one, it's important four reasons. Number one, it's important four reasons. Number one, it's important because God is the most important thing because God is the most important thing because God is the most important thing in the world. And and what we're coming in the world. And and what we're coming in the world. And and what we're coming to do is to publicly confess that God, to do is to publicly confess that God, to do is to publicly confess that God, you are more important than anything.

you are more important than anything. you are more important than anything. and we need you more than anything. So, and we need you more than anything. So, and we need you more than anything. So, it's really important that we think it's really important that we think it's really important that we think about what we do if God's the most about what we do if God's the most about what we do if God's the most important thing in the world. So, and I important thing in the world. So, and I important thing in the world. So, and I know that's Matt and Keith's heart. This know that's Matt and Keith's heart. This know that's Matt and Keith's heart. This is why it matters what we sing. It is why it matters what we sing. It is why it matters what we sing. It matters what we what we read, what we matters what we what we read, what we matters what we what we read, what we say, how we do it, because God is the say, how we do it, because God is the say, how we do it, because God is the most important thing in the world. The most important thing in the world. The most important thing in the world. The the second thing is and John Piper the second thing is and John Piper the second thing is and John Piper actually beautifully pointed to this in actually beautifully pointed to this in actually beautifully pointed to this in the exposition that we just heard. We the exposition that we just heard. We the exposition that we just heard. We were created for the praise of God's were created for the praise of God's were created for the praise of God's glory. So our purpose in existence is to glory. So our purpose in existence is to glory. So our purpose in existence is to give to God the glory to his name. And give to God the glory to his name. And give to God the glory to his name. And that means we really need to think about that means we really need to think about that means we really need to think about how we do we want to do that how we do we want to do that how we do we want to do that biblically especially when we get biblically especially when we get biblically especially when we get together uh on the Lord's day. So it together uh on the Lord's day. So it together uh on the Lord's day. So it really matters because we were created really matters because we were created really matters because we were created for the praise of God, God's glory. Paul for the praise of God, God's glory. Paul for the praise of God, God's glory. Paul says that three times in Ephesians 1. So says that three times in Ephesians 1. So says that three times in Ephesians 1. So it must be really really important that it must be really really important that it must be really really important that we were to the praise of his glory. And we were to the praise of his glory. And we were to the praise of his glory. And so it's important for that reason. It's so it's important for that reason. It's so it's important for that reason. It's also important because what we do also important because what we do also important because what we do together congregationally on the Lord's together congregationally on the Lord's together congregationally on the Lord's day in public day in public day in public worship will determine who the God is worship will determine who the God is worship will determine who the God is who we who we who we worship. If we do not worship him worship. If we do not worship him worship. If we do not worship him according to his according to his according to his word, we will maybe not worship him at word, we will maybe not worship him at word, we will maybe not worship him at all. We may worship a figment of our own all. We may worship a figment of our own all. We may worship a figment of our own imaginations. That you know, you ever imaginations. That you know, you ever imaginations. That you know, you ever wondered how do you worship a spirit?

wondered how do you worship a spirit? wondered how do you worship a spirit? You know, we know we know that God is a You know, we know we know that God is a You know, we know we know that God is a spirit infinite, eternal, and spirit infinite, eternal, and spirit infinite, eternal, and unchangeable in his being, wisdom, unchangeable in his being, wisdom, unchangeable in his being, wisdom, power, holiness, justice, goodness, and power, holiness, justice, goodness, and power, holiness, justice, goodness, and truth. Well, how do you worship a truth. Well, how do you worship a truth. Well, how do you worship a spirit? Westminster catism. There you spirit? Westminster catism. There you spirit? Westminster catism. There you go. And the Bible's answer to that go. And the Bible's answer to that go. And the Bible's answer to that question is however God tells you to. I question is however God tells you to. I question is however God tells you to. I mean, you only know how to worship a mean, you only know how to worship a mean, you only know how to worship a spirit if the spirit tells you how to do spirit if the spirit tells you how to do spirit if the spirit tells you how to do it. And he tells us in his word. So when it. And he tells us in his word. So when it. And he tells us in his word. So when one of the issues that the Old Testament one of the issues that the Old Testament one of the issues that the Old Testament prophets deal with all the time is that prophets deal with all the time is that prophets deal with all the time is that people are worshiping God according to people are worshiping God according to people are worshiping God according to their own their own their own imaginations, not according to the word. imaginations, not according to the word. imaginations, not according to the word. And that's what the Bible calls And that's what the Bible calls And that's what the Bible calls idolatry. So we don't want to come to idolatry. So we don't want to come to idolatry. So we don't want to come to church on Sunday and do idolatry. We we church on Sunday and do idolatry. We we church on Sunday and do idolatry. We we want to worship the one true and living want to worship the one true and living want to worship the one true and living God. And the fourth and final reason God. And the fourth and final reason God. And the fourth and final reason that I'll mention and there a lot more that I'll mention and there a lot more that I'll mention and there a lot more in Matt and Keith can add to this, but in Matt and Keith can add to this, but in Matt and Keith can add to this, but here's a fourth one. What you do in here's a fourth one. What you do in here's a fourth one. What you do in public worship gathered together as a public worship gathered together as a public worship gathered together as a congregation disciples your people in congregation disciples your people in congregation disciples your people in theology. It it Keith will say this theology. It it Keith will say this theology. It it Keith will say this today. I'm sure Matt will say it as today. I'm sure Matt will say it as today. I'm sure Matt will say it as well. If if if what you preach is well. If if if what you preach is well. If if if what you preach is different from how you worship, your different from how you worship, your different from how you worship, your people will believe how you worship. not people will believe how you worship. not people will believe how you worship. not what you what you what you preach. Those things better go together.

preach. Those things better go together. preach. Those things better go together. Th those things those things ought ought Th those things those things ought ought Th those things those things ought ought to be of the same cloth because your to be of the same cloth because your to be of the same cloth because your worship teaches your people worship teaches your people worship teaches your people theology. And so if we care about theology. And so if we care about theology. And so if we care about discipling our people, we will really discipling our people, we will really discipling our people, we will really care about what we sing, about the music care about what we sing, about the music care about what we sing, about the music that we use to support the people that we use to support the people that we use to support the people singing, uh about the order of the singing, uh about the order of the singing, uh about the order of the service. will care about all those service. will care about all those service. will care about all those things because we really want the gospel things because we really want the gospel things because we really want the gospel to be in everything that we do, to be in everything that we do, to be in everything that we do, including our public worship. Very well including our public worship. Very well including our public worship. Very well said. Thanks, Lig. Uh let's I'd like for said. Thanks, Lig. Uh let's I'd like for said. Thanks, Lig. Uh let's I'd like for all three of you to answer two all three of you to answer two all three of you to answer two questions. Uh one is I I really want you questions. Uh one is I I really want you questions. Uh one is I I really want you to eventually give us your concerns as to eventually give us your concerns as to eventually give us your concerns as you travel the church, the American you travel the church, the American you travel the church, the American Evangelical Church, and some of the Evangelical Church, and some of the Evangelical Church, and some of the concerns you have about worship concerns you have about worship concerns you have about worship practices that you've noticed. But first practices that you've noticed. But first practices that you've noticed. But first of all, I'd like for you to ser make of all, I'd like for you to ser make of all, I'd like for you to ser make that same survey. Tell us what you see that same survey. Tell us what you see that same survey. Tell us what you see in the American Evangelical Church that in the American Evangelical Church that in the American Evangelical Church that actually encourages you with regard to actually encourages you with regard to actually encourages you with regard to worship uh in anywhere you wish to go. worship uh in anywhere you wish to go. worship uh in anywhere you wish to go. Whoever's ready far away.

Whoever's ready far away. Whoever's ready far away. Everybody's looking at you. Matt, I I am Everybody's looking at you. Matt, I I am Everybody's looking at you. Matt, I I am encouraged by particularly young people encouraged by particularly young people encouraged by particularly young people seeing a deep hunger for expositional seeing a deep hunger for expositional seeing a deep hunger for expositional preaching. Yeah. For a recovery of preaching. Yeah. For a recovery of preaching. Yeah. For a recovery of ecclesiology. Honestly, this room is is ecclesiology. Honestly, this room is is ecclesiology. Honestly, this room is is testament to this this wonderful move of testament to this this wonderful move of testament to this this wonderful move of God we've seen over the last 20 years, God we've seen over the last 20 years, God we've seen over the last 20 years, 25 years of this recovery of the 25 years of this recovery of the 25 years of this recovery of the historic gospel and the historic church. historic gospel and the historic church. historic gospel and the historic church. Um, and so I'm I'm encouraged by all of Um, and so I'm I'm encouraged by all of Um, and so I'm I'm encouraged by all of those things. Uh, I'm encouraged by what those things. Uh, I'm encouraged by what those things. Uh, I'm encouraged by what I see happening in children and children I see happening in children and children I see happening in children and children being discipled and growing up in being discipled and growing up in being discipled and growing up in families. Ligan said it well. We our families. Ligan said it well. We our families. Ligan said it well. We our lives and our liturgies must be shaped lives and our liturgies must be shaped lives and our liturgies must be shaped by the word of God and there's got to be by the word of God and there's got to be by the word of God and there's got to be uh congruency in that. Uh but I I am I uh congruency in that. Uh but I I am I uh congruency in that. Uh but I I am I am certainly encouraged. am certainly encouraged. am certainly encouraged. Thanks Matt Thanks Matt Thanks Matt Keith. Well I say encouraged um for two Keith. Well I say encouraged um for two Keith. Well I say encouraged um for two or three things or three things or three things obviously as stewards of as stewards of obviously as stewards of as stewards of obviously as stewards of as stewards of of the hymns and working with this team of the hymns and working with this team of the hymns and working with this team of wonderful him writers as well. you of wonderful him writers as well. you of wonderful him writers as well. you know, we get to travel the world and know, we get to travel the world and know, we get to travel the world and work with people around the world each work with people around the world each work with people around the world each each year and to see the the speed of each year and to see the the speed of each year and to see the the speed of growth um of the global church. Um to growth um of the global church. Um to growth um of the global church. Um to see that the Bible is in more languages see that the Bible is in more languages see that the Bible is in more languages than ever before. To see that there are than ever before. To see that there are than ever before. To see that there are increasingly great songs in more increasingly great songs in more increasingly great songs in more languages than ever do before. And that

languages than ever do before. And that languages than ever do before. And that communication, whether it be digital communication, whether it be digital communication, whether it be digital communication or just travel generally communication or just travel generally communication or just travel generally and technology generally, allows us this and technology generally, allows us this and technology generally, allows us this opportunity to be global Christians. opportunity to be global Christians. opportunity to be global Christians. Each one of us in this room and our Each one of us in this room and our Each one of us in this room and our families have a chance, our churches families have a chance, our churches families have a chance, our churches have a chance to be global Christians in have a chance to be global Christians in have a chance to be global Christians in a way previous generations dreamed of. a way previous generations dreamed of. a way previous generations dreamed of. And so, it's an exciting time to be And so, it's an exciting time to be And so, it's an exciting time to be alive. I wouldn't have wanted to have alive. I wouldn't have wanted to have alive. I wouldn't have wanted to have lived in a previous generation despite lived in a previous generation despite lived in a previous generation despite what many of my Presbyterian or coral what many of my Presbyterian or coral what many of my Presbyterian or coral friends tell me. I should have been born friends tell me. I should have been born friends tell me. I should have been born 50 years earlier. I I really wish I 50 years earlier. I I really wish I 50 years earlier. I I really wish I really have no desire to have been born really have no desire to have been born really have no desire to have been born 50 years early. This is the most 50 years early. This is the most 50 years early. This is the most exciting age to to live in. That's the exciting age to to live in. That's the exciting age to to live in. That's the first thing. And secondly, you know, first thing. And secondly, you know, first thing. And secondly, you know, every day the the encouragement is every every day the the encouragement is every every day the the encouragement is every day God's faithfulness in our lives, day God's faithfulness in our lives, day God's faithfulness in our lives, isn't it? The little the blessings that isn't it? The little the blessings that isn't it? The little the blessings that we see every day. And then in moving it we see every day. And then in moving it we see every day. And then in moving it to the western church, I am I am uh to the western church, I am I am uh to the western church, I am I am uh British. I'm Northern Irish, which means British. I'm Northern Irish, which means British. I'm Northern Irish, which means I'm Irish and British and European. Um, I'm Irish and British and European. Um, I'm Irish and British and European. Um, so I don't wish to speak I don't don't so I don't wish to speak I don't don't so I don't wish to speak I don't don't wish to speak in any way past remarkably wish to speak in any way past remarkably wish to speak in any way past remarkably towards the American church. So I'll towards the American church. So I'll towards the American church. So I'll just speak to the western church because just speak to the western church because just speak to the western church because the western church largely is the one the western church largely is the one the western church largely is the one that has seen the least growth on the that has seen the least growth on the that has seen the least growth on the planet right now. But to see the planet right now. But to see the planet right now. But to see the faithfulness to see the faithfulness of faithfulness to see the faithfulness of faithfulness to see the faithfulness of of believers, you know, is a wonderful of believers, you know, is a wonderful of believers, you know, is a wonderful thing. We did a concert, one of the most thing. We did a concert, one of the most thing. We did a concert, one of the most beautiful stories is we did a concert beautiful stories is we did a concert beautiful stories is we did a concert recently in Belfast and and a man after recently in Belfast and and a man after recently in Belfast and and a man after the concert said, "Thank you. Thank you the concert said, "Thank you. Thank you the concert said, "Thank you. Thank you for your songs. um we have used them to for your songs. um we have used them to for your songs. um we have used them to teach theology to a tribe in the island teach theology to a tribe in the island teach theology to a tribe in the island we mission are missionaries on in we mission are missionaries on in we mission are missionaries on in Indonesia. So they and they have a Indonesia. So they and they have a Indonesia. So they and they have a unique dialect there and they translated

unique dialect there and they translated unique dialect there and they translated the songs and created a out of out of the songs and created a out of out of the songs and created a out of out of six of our songs. And I said well I said six of our songs. And I said well I said six of our songs. And I said well I said how did you how did you come up how did how did you how did you come up how did how did you how did you come up how did you discover the songs? And he says you discover the songs? And he says you discover the songs? And he says weren't you born in Palm Park Road and I weren't you born in Palm Park Road and I weren't you born in Palm Park Road and I said yeah Palm Park Road in Lisburn. He said yeah Palm Park Road in Lisburn. He said yeah Palm Park Road in Lisburn. He goes I delivered your coal son. So he goes I delivered your coal son. So he goes I delivered your coal son. So he was a coal man who delivered my coal was a coal man who delivered my coal was a coal man who delivered my coal every day for a decade raising money every day for a decade raising money every day for a decade raising money that one day he could have the privilege that one day he could have the privilege that one day he could have the privilege of being a missionary and then he went of being a missionary and then he went of being a missionary and then he went and did that. And so the faithfulness we and did that. And so the faithfulness we and did that. And so the faithfulness we see in people every day in in an old see in people every day in in an old see in people every day in in an old lady in our church who who just told me lady in our church who who just told me lady in our church who who just told me she was praying for us last week. These she was praying for us last week. These she was praying for us last week. These are these are the things that we live are these are the things that we live are these are the things that we live with every day and feed our souls. So with every day and feed our souls. So with every day and feed our souls. So never never never underestimate never underestimate the underestimate never underestimate the underestimate never underestimate the power of of ordinary testimony and power of of ordinary testimony and power of of ordinary testimony and ordinary encouragement. Um, and then ordinary encouragement. Um, and then ordinary encouragement. Um, and then probably the third thing that comes to probably the third thing that comes to probably the third thing that comes to mind is the the inevitable reckoning of mind is the the inevitable reckoning of mind is the the inevitable reckoning of un of unbalance. You know, the last 50 un of unbalance. You know, the last 50 un of unbalance. You know, the last 50 years, the last 50 years, the the years, the last 50 years, the the years, the last 50 years, the the alliance or the the the unholy clash alliance or the the the unholy clash alliance or the the the unholy clash between between contemporary Christian between between contemporary Christian between between contemporary Christian music and the church has has rigged has music and the church has has rigged has music and the church has has rigged has has while while it is I think it's been has while while it is I think it's been has while while it is I think it's been really it has been strategic both really it has been strategic both really it has been strategic both evangelistically and in and and and in evangelistically and in and and and in evangelistically and in and and and in youth movements, it has as a whole youth movements, it has as a whole youth movements, it has as a whole created created a chaos that I think created created a chaos that I think created created a chaos that I think we're now beginning to see a turn on and we're now beginning to see a turn on and we're now beginning to see a turn on and uh you know for example the the number uh you know for example the the number uh you know for example the the number one influence on modern what we call one influence on modern what we call one influence on modern what we call broadly evangelical churches and what broadly evangelical churches and what broadly evangelical churches and what they sing is called Christian radio they sing is called Christian radio they sing is called Christian radio which is not it's almost it's almost

which is not it's almost it's almost which is not it's almost it's almost majority Wall Street owned for a start majority Wall Street owned for a start majority Wall Street owned for a start um but it is bas it is a business is a um but it is bas it is a business is a um but it is bas it is a business is a it is a it is an almost billion dollar it is a it is an almost billion dollar it is a it is an almost billion dollar business that is built on selling to two business that is built on selling to two business that is built on selling to two women who have names Becky and I think women who have names Becky and I think women who have names Becky and I think Sarah I forget what the one's called and Sarah I forget what the one's called and Sarah I forget what the one's called and one is one is a lady in her 20s who's one is one is a lady in her 20s who's one is one is a lady in her 20s who's raising kids and one is a lady going raising kids and one is a lady going raising kids and one is a lady going through menopause in her 50s who through menopause in her 50s who through menopause in her 50s who represent 75% of your audience and they represent 75% of your audience and they represent 75% of your audience and they basically have built a business trying basically have built a business trying basically have built a business trying to in 2 minutes 54 seconds encourage to in 2 minutes 54 seconds encourage to in 2 minutes 54 seconds encourage those two women and that is what is now those two women and that is what is now those two women and that is what is now deciding the lurggical structure of your deciding the lurggical structure of your deciding the lurggical structure of your church the songs you will sing into your church the songs you will sing into your church the songs you will sing into your old age the way you will ultimately old age the way you will ultimately old age the way you will ultimately articulate your faith articulate your articulate your faith articulate your articulate your faith articulate your faith now we go back to Deuteronomy faith now we go back to Deuteronomy faith now we go back to Deuteronomy these songs you know that to teach it to these songs you know that to teach it to these songs you know that to teach it to their children lest they depart lest their children lest they depart lest their children lest they depart lest lest the truth departs from them it's lest the truth departs from them it's lest the truth departs from them it's very clear that from the very beginning very clear that from the very beginning very clear that from the very beginning of the Bible, the songs we sing were in of the Bible, the songs we sing were in of the Bible, the songs we sing were in significant part instructional. So if significant part instructional. So if significant part instructional. So if you are a pastor and if you're a worship you are a pastor and if you're a worship you are a pastor and if you're a worship leader, if you're an elder, if you are a leader, if you're an elder, if you are a leader, if you're an elder, if you are a parent or a grandparent here, you have a parent or a grandparent here, you have a parent or a grandparent here, you have a holy holy holy responsibility that the songs you are responsibility that the songs you are responsibility that the songs you are singing and leading and planting that singing and leading and planting that singing and leading and planting that people will grow with throughout their people will grow with throughout their people will grow with throughout their life uh are deep and rich and and anyone life uh are deep and rich and and anyone life uh are deep and rich and and anyone who kind of does the Judas's Scariot and who kind of does the Judas's Scariot and who kind of does the Judas's Scariot and washes their hands of what is being sung washes their hands of what is being sung washes their hands of what is being sung to their family, to their churches, to to their family, to their churches, to to their family, to their churches, to their youth group is is in in grave their youth group is is in in grave their youth group is is in in grave danger of creating a generation of danger of creating a generation of danger of creating a generation of people who either in significant part people who either in significant part people who either in significant part deconstruct or in the thinking leader

deconstruct or in the thinking leader deconstruct or in the thinking leader group will move towards Catholicism or group will move towards Catholicism or group will move towards Catholicism or something else just for the in something else just for the in something else just for the in desperation to find some kind of desperation to find some kind of desperation to find some kind of lurggical and systematic framework. So, lurggical and systematic framework. So, lurggical and systematic framework. So, we've begun to see I mean this been able we've begun to see I mean this been able we've begun to see I mean this been able to be with all these guys this week and to be with all these guys this week and to be with all these guys this week and on stage and Laura here and so many on stage and Laura here and so many on stage and Laura here and so many others and and see what they're writing. others and and see what they're writing. others and and see what they're writing. You know, it it hasn't been the the You know, it it hasn't been the the You know, it it hasn't been the the biggest quarter of a century for many biggest quarter of a century for many biggest quarter of a century for many areas of Christian growth, but to see areas of Christian growth, but to see areas of Christian growth, but to see the growth in in what is being sung in the growth in in what is being sung in the growth in in what is being sung in churches um has been really encouraging. churches um has been really encouraging. churches um has been really encouraging. So, uh thanks Keith. Uh Lick, why don't So, uh thanks Keith. Uh Lick, why don't So, uh thanks Keith. Uh Lick, why don't you take uh take what you see that's you take uh take what you see that's you take uh take what you see that's encouraging. Yeah. Then go ahead and encouraging. Yeah. Then go ahead and encouraging. Yeah. Then go ahead and tell us what concerns you and we'll come tell us what concerns you and we'll come tell us what concerns you and we'll come right back down the line. Uh, I agree right back down the line. Uh, I agree right back down the line. Uh, I agree with everything that Matt and Keith with everything that Matt and Keith with everything that Matt and Keith said. Maybe to give an angle on that. said. Maybe to give an angle on that. said. Maybe to give an angle on that. Um, and I I think the people here at TGC Um, and I I think the people here at TGC Um, and I I think the people here at TGC represent only a part of evangelicalism. represent only a part of evangelicalism. represent only a part of evangelicalism. I would say we represent a part of I would say we represent a part of I would say we represent a part of evangelicalism that's more concerned evangelicalism that's more concerned evangelicalism that's more concerned about expositional preaching, more about expositional preaching, more about expositional preaching, more concerned about theology, more concerned concerned about theology, more concerned concerned about theology, more concerned about how we do church life together, about how we do church life together, about how we do church life together, less pragmatic than some parts of less pragmatic than some parts of less pragmatic than some parts of evangelicalism. And I I do see this in evangelicalism. And I I do see this in evangelicalism. And I I do see this in in this space in in this space in in this space in evangelicalism more and more evangelicalism more and more evangelicalism more and more congregations that come to public congregations that come to public congregations that come to public worship realizing they are not the worship realizing they are not the worship realizing they are not the audience of public worship. They're the audience of public worship. They're the audience of public worship. They're the worshippers. God's the audience. We So worshippers. God's the audience. We So worshippers. God's the audience. We So and and that means that everything that and and that means that everything that and and that means that everything that Matt and Keith do is not for us. And so

Matt and Keith do is not for us. And so Matt and Keith do is not for us. And so it is it's just built it's to help it's it is it's just built it's to help it's it is it's just built it's to help it's to help us give God praise. So God's the to help us give God praise. So God's the to help us give God praise. So God's the audience. They're helping us give God audience. They're helping us give God audience. They're helping us give God praise together. And I do think I see praise together. And I do think I see praise together. And I do think I see it's maybe maybe it's only the size of a it's maybe maybe it's only the size of a it's maybe maybe it's only the size of a man's hand but it's coming and that's a man's hand but it's coming and that's a man's hand but it's coming and that's a change because I grew up when the seeker change because I grew up when the seeker change because I grew up when the seeker sensitive movement and when you know sensitive movement and when you know sensitive movement and when you know when the kind of Christian contemporary when the kind of Christian contemporary when the kind of Christian contemporary stuff that was being done in the 70s you stuff that was being done in the 70s you stuff that was being done in the 70s you know the the new stuff that is being know the the new stuff that is being know the the new stuff that is being written by these folks today is so much written by these folks today is so much written by these folks today is so much better than the stuff that was being better than the stuff that was being better than the stuff that was being written in the 70s when I was a a written in the 70s when I was a a written in the 70s when I was a a teenager. Um, so it's not only that, teenager. Um, so it's not only that, teenager. Um, so it's not only that, it's that there's a conception that it's that there's a conception that it's that there's a conception that we're here actually to give praise to we're here actually to give praise to we're here actually to give praise to the audience who is God. And so that's the audience who is God. And so that's the audience who is God. And so that's encouraging to me. I I still think we encouraging to me. I I still think we encouraging to me. I I still think we probably don't have enough scripture probably don't have enough scripture probably don't have enough scripture reading and we probably don't have reading and we probably don't have reading and we probably don't have enough prayer in public worship is in in enough prayer in public worship is in in enough prayer in public worship is in in public worship in our evangelical space. public worship in our evangelical space. public worship in our evangelical space. prayer got almost completely squeezed prayer got almost completely squeezed prayer got almost completely squeezed out during the seeker sensitive movement out during the seeker sensitive movement out during the seeker sensitive movement because the idea was unbelievers don't because the idea was unbelievers don't because the idea was unbelievers don't understand prayer. It's going to make understand prayer. It's going to make understand prayer. It's going to make them uncomfortable. Prayer is just a them uncomfortable. Prayer is just a them uncomfortable. Prayer is just a time for transition for the musicians to time for transition for the musicians to time for transition for the musicians to come back off the stage. Yeah. Or onto come back off the stage. Yeah. Or onto come back off the stage. Yeah. Or onto the stage. And so I think taking prayer the stage. And so I think taking prayer the stage. And so I think taking prayer and the and the the various biblically and the and the the various biblically and the and the the various biblically prescribed subjects of prayer and making prescribed subjects of prayer and making prescribed subjects of prayer and making sure that that's substantial and sure that that's substantial and sure that that's substantial and biblical in the worship service is is biblical in the worship service is is biblical in the worship service is is one way we will move forward in our

one way we will move forward in our one way we will move forward in our time. Well, can I just piggyback on that time. Well, can I just piggyback on that time. Well, can I just piggyback on that because that was a passing comment but because that was a passing comment but because that was a passing comment but very significant. very significant. very significant. Prayer has been diminished in many Prayer has been diminished in many Prayer has been diminished in many churches to being just that. It's the churches to being just that. It's the churches to being just that. It's the time where every eye closes so the band time where every eye closes so the band time where every eye closes so the band can magically disappear. Who knows where can magically disappear. Who knows where can magically disappear. Who knows where they go. Yeah. And then at the end of they go. Yeah. And then at the end of they go. Yeah. And then at the end of the sermon, poof, they're back there. the sermon, poof, they're back there. the sermon, poof, they're back there. And um we have so much to pray about. And um we have so much to pray about. And um we have so much to pray about. Our dependence on the Lord in prayer is Our dependence on the Lord in prayer is Our dependence on the Lord in prayer is um or our lack of dependence is shown by um or our lack of dependence is shown by um or our lack of dependence is shown by our prayerlessness, including in our our prayerlessness, including in our our prayerlessness, including in our service. The reason our lives are service. The reason our lives are service. The reason our lives are prayerless is because our services are prayerless is because our services are prayerless is because our services are prayerless. We're not teaching people prayerless. We're not teaching people prayerless. We're not teaching people how to pray. So, think about even the how to pray. So, think about even the how to pray. So, think about even the prayer movement of a service. Um, even prayer movement of a service. Um, even prayer movement of a service. Um, even in the in the call to worship, in the in the call to worship, in the in the call to worship, responding with a prayer of adoration responding with a prayer of adoration responding with a prayer of adoration for who God is, a prayer of confession for who God is, a prayer of confession for who God is, a prayer of confession of sin uh for how we've broken God's law of sin uh for how we've broken God's law of sin uh for how we've broken God's law and commands, uh prayer of thanksgiving and commands, uh prayer of thanksgiving and commands, uh prayer of thanksgiving for what the Lord has done in our lives, for what the Lord has done in our lives, for what the Lord has done in our lives, uh prayer of illumination, asking the uh prayer of illumination, asking the uh prayer of illumination, asking the Lord in the in the public preaching of Lord in the in the public preaching of Lord in the in the public preaching of his word by his grace to speak to us. a his word by his grace to speak to us. a his word by his grace to speak to us. a prayer of consecration at the end of the prayer of consecration at the end of the prayer of consecration at the end of the ser at sermon asking the Lord the things ser at sermon asking the Lord the things ser at sermon asking the Lord the things we've heard press them in uh our lives we've heard press them in uh our lives we've heard press them in uh our lives bear fruit in our lives for your glory bear fruit in our lives for your glory bear fruit in our lives for your glory even the benediction a glorious prayer even the benediction a glorious prayer even the benediction a glorious prayer sending the people of God back into the sending the people of God back into the sending the people of God back into the world prayer should mark our services world prayer should mark our services world prayer should mark our services and I think too often it doesn't I said and I think too often it doesn't I said and I think too often it doesn't I said I was encouraged now I sound

I was encouraged now I sound I was encouraged now I sound discouraged but here's another thing is discouraged but here's another thing is discouraged but here's another thing is is is is perhaps I think many evangelicals perhaps I think many evangelicals perhaps I think many evangelicals We we on paper believe in the We we on paper believe in the We we on paper believe in the sufficiency of scripture but in our sufficiency of scripture but in our sufficiency of scripture but in our gatherings don't act like it. Um this is gatherings don't act like it. Um this is gatherings don't act like it. Um this is where our pull to pragmatism and um um where our pull to pragmatism and um um where our pull to pragmatism and um um all kinds of things really shows its all kinds of things really shows its all kinds of things really shows its itself as well. I think prayer and our itself as well. I think prayer and our itself as well. I think prayer and our actual belief in the sufficiency of actual belief in the sufficiency of actual belief in the sufficiency of scripture for the word to do the work to scripture for the word to do the work to scripture for the word to do the work to believe that. So, if you're in a church believe that. So, if you're in a church believe that. So, if you're in a church where you you don't see much fruit, you where you you don't see much fruit, you where you you don't see much fruit, you you may be tempted to not believe that you may be tempted to not believe that you may be tempted to not believe that the word does the work, but it does. the word does the work, but it does. the word does the work, but it does. Yeah. Just be faithful, be patient, and Yeah. Just be faithful, be patient, and Yeah. Just be faithful, be patient, and in the Lord's time, his word will do the in the Lord's time, his word will do the in the Lord's time, his word will do the work. And so, um, I do think we need to work. And so, um, I do think we need to work. And so, um, I do think we need to be a great recovery. We need a be a great recovery. We need a be a great recovery. We need a reformation of worship. And, um, it reformation of worship. And, um, it reformation of worship. And, um, it begins with a reformation of our lives begins with a reformation of our lives begins with a reformation of our lives being built on the word of God. I being built on the word of God. I being built on the word of God. I couldn't agree with you more. Uh, let's couldn't agree with you more. Uh, let's couldn't agree with you more. Uh, let's go back about 140 years. You've done a go back about 140 years. You've done a go back about 140 years. You've done a lot of study, Matt, on Charles Spurgeon.

lot of study, Matt, on Charles Spurgeon. lot of study, Matt, on Charles Spurgeon. What age were you 140 years ago? Yeah, I What age were you 140 years ago? Yeah, I What age were you 140 years ago? Yeah, I was about 10. Yeah. Uh, let's go back, was about 10. Yeah. Uh, let's go back, was about 10. Yeah. Uh, let's go back, Matt. You've done a lot of study on Matt. You've done a lot of study on Matt. You've done a lot of study on Charles Spurgeon and the kind of worship Charles Spurgeon and the kind of worship Charles Spurgeon and the kind of worship services that he led in the 19th services that he led in the 19th services that he led in the 19th century. Uh, what did you learn? Right. century. Uh, what did you learn? Right. century. Uh, what did you learn? Right. I mean, some of us are Presbyterians. I mean, some of us are Presbyterians. I mean, some of us are Presbyterians. Maybe we tend to be a little bit more Maybe we tend to be a little bit more Maybe we tend to be a little bit more lurggical than our Baptist and non-denom lurggical than our Baptist and non-denom lurggical than our Baptist and non-denom friends, but what what did you learn friends, but what what did you learn friends, but what what did you learn about Spurgeon? Well, you just said about Spurgeon? Well, you just said about Spurgeon? Well, you just said lurggical. And so with that word, he lurggical. And so with that word, he lurggical. And so with that word, he would say, "Where in scripture meet we would say, "Where in scripture meet we would say, "Where in scripture meet we bare idea of a liturgy? Shall we go down bare idea of a liturgy? Shall we go down bare idea of a liturgy? Shall we go down to Egypt when the God of Israel is at to Egypt when the God of Israel is at to Egypt when the God of Israel is at our side?" our side?" our side?" So he would then he then he proceeded to So he would then he then he proceeded to So he would then he then he proceeded to do what was quite a lurggically do what was quite a lurggically do what was quite a lurggically service that just left out a couple of service that just left out a couple of service that just left out a couple of antipinal responses. antipinal responses. antipinal responses. So he he wouldn't like that word but So he he wouldn't like that word but So he he wouldn't like that word but certainly had a liturgy. I I think what certainly had a liturgy. I I think what certainly had a liturgy. I I think what I learned from Spurgeon is um is as a I learned from Spurgeon is um is as a I learned from Spurgeon is um is as a pastor how to pastor through the entire pastor how to pastor through the entire pastor how to pastor through the entire gathering that from the call to worship gathering that from the call to worship gathering that from the call to worship to the benediction that falls under the to the benediction that falls under the to the benediction that falls under the scope of the pastor's scope of the pastor's scope of the pastor's ministry. And so I studied him both to ministry. And so I studied him both to ministry. And so I studied him both to learn myself but then to look many of my learn myself but then to look many of my learn myself but then to look many of my brothers who shepherd local churches and brothers who shepherd local churches and brothers who shepherd local churches and to say this really matters. This is to say this really matters. This is to say this really matters. This is really significant. Um the word worship really significant. Um the word worship really significant. Um the word worship leader isn't the best phrase, but as a leader isn't the best phrase, but as a leader isn't the best phrase, but as a pastor, you are responsible for the pastor, you are responsible for the pastor, you are responsible for the worship of your church. Um, and when you

worship of your church. Um, and when you worship of your church. Um, and when you gather to exercise pastoral care and um, gather to exercise pastoral care and um, gather to exercise pastoral care and um, and diligence over everything that and diligence over everything that and diligence over everything that happens, over every prayer that's happens, over every prayer that's happens, over every prayer that's prayed, every song that's sung, uh, prayed, every song that's sung, uh, prayed, every song that's sung, uh, everything that happens according to everything that happens according to everything that happens according to scripture. scripture. scripture. Keith, that's learned from Spurgeon from Keith, that's learned from Spurgeon from Keith, that's learned from Spurgeon from personal conversations with you. I personal conversations with you. I personal conversations with you. I happen to know, is this on? I happen to know uh Keith from on? I happen to know uh Keith from private conversations with you that you private conversations with you that you private conversations with you that you you agree with Matt and what he just you agree with Matt and what he just you agree with Matt and what he just said about a pastor's role in liturgy. said about a pastor's role in liturgy. said about a pastor's role in liturgy. Let me ask you why you think that so Let me ask you why you think that so Let me ask you why you think that so many pastors have seem to have many pastors have seem to have many pastors have seem to have abdicated that role of chief liturgist, abdicated that role of chief liturgist, abdicated that role of chief liturgist, if you will, chief worship leader in the if you will, chief worship leader in the if you will, chief worship leader in the church. What's going on? church. What's going on? church. What's going on? Um gosh. Well, again, as a as a Um gosh. Well, again, as a as a Um gosh. Well, again, as a as a Presbyterian, I I again genulect to Presbyterian, I I again genulect to Presbyterian, I I again genulect to saying three things. saying three things. saying three things. Um, the first one is I think what Matt Um, the first one is I think what Matt Um, the first one is I think what Matt said was brilliant. That's that was that said was brilliant. That's that was that said was brilliant. That's that was that was worth coming to Gospel Coalition was worth coming to Gospel Coalition was worth coming to Gospel Coalition just to hear what Buzz said there. And just to hear what Buzz said there. And just to hear what Buzz said there. And uh and and pastors pastoring their uh and and pastors pastoring their uh and and pastors pastoring their church by how they put together their church by how they put together their church by how they put together their Sunday services is so important. Of Sunday services is so important. Of Sunday services is so important. Of course, it can't be in conflict with how course, it can't be in conflict with how course, it can't be in conflict with how you live your life and treat your kids you live your life and treat your kids you live your life and treat your kids and how you behave when you're, you and how you behave when you're, you and how you behave when you're, you know, playing golf and watching football know, playing golf and watching football know, playing golf and watching football and stuff, but but but and and deal with and stuff, but but but and and deal with and stuff, but but but and and deal with your staff, you know, it can't be in your staff, you know, it can't be in your staff, you know, it can't be in conflict with that. But but that that's conflict with that. But but that that's conflict with that. But but that that's brilliant. I think that's that's that is

brilliant. I think that's that's that is brilliant. I think that's that's that is that is gold. You know, again, I'm the that is gold. You know, again, I'm the that is gold. You know, again, I'm the only person in the stage who's not a, only person in the stage who's not a, only person in the stage who's not a, you know, pastor. I'm the only you know, pastor. I'm the only you know, pastor. I'm the only non-professional Christian here and uh non-professional Christian here and uh non-professional Christian here and uh and the only one with no theology and the only one with no theology and the only one with no theology degree. So I I so forgive my inferiority degree. So I I so forgive my inferiority degree. So I I so forgive my inferiority complex but I I don't I don't want to complex but I I don't I don't want to complex but I I don't I don't want to say I I I it's not m it's not mine to say I I I it's not m it's not mine to say I I I it's not m it's not mine to prescribe prescribe why why pastors prescribe prescribe why why pastors prescribe prescribe why why pastors haven't done it we begin now this is we haven't done it we begin now this is we haven't done it we begin now this is we only have what's ahead of us in life now only have what's ahead of us in life now only have what's ahead of us in life now so I think you know at the broadest so I think you know at the broadest so I think you know at the broadest possible level at the broadest possible possible level at the broadest possible possible level at the broadest possible level the confusion in song worship and level the confusion in song worship and level the confusion in song worship and putting together churches church putting together churches church putting together churches church services has been so great in the church services has been so great in the church services has been so great in the church for the for the for the few decades, it is understandable why a few decades, it is understandable why a few decades, it is understandable why a lot of pastors have gone, "Okay, I'm lot of pastors have gone, "Okay, I'm lot of pastors have gone, "Okay, I'm going to preach my best possible sermon. going to preach my best possible sermon. going to preach my best possible sermon. I'm going to try and make sure my church I'm going to try and make sure my church I'm going to try and make sure my church is cared for and I'm going to try and is cared for and I'm going to try and is cared for and I'm going to try and make sure the service isn't too bad." make sure the service isn't too bad." make sure the service isn't too bad." Apart from that, and it's usually done Apart from that, and it's usually done Apart from that, and it's usually done by the operational process has usually by the operational process has usually by the operational process has usually been one of what's called been one of what's called been one of what's called minimalization, where you minimize the minimalization, where you minimize the minimalization, where you minimize the amount of songs, you minimize the number amount of songs, you minimize the number amount of songs, you minimize the number of prayers just so that the rest of it of prayers just so that the rest of it of prayers just so that the rest of it is as little messed up as possible. I is as little messed up as possible. I is as little messed up as possible. I sure will. Um, thank you. I wish my kids sure will. Um, thank you. I wish my kids sure will. Um, thank you. I wish my kids said that. So, so, so I think the said that. So, so, so I think the said that. So, so, so I think the general mean that, but I, you know, I general mean that, but I, you know, I general mean that, but I, you know, I think with with we've only got from think with with we've only got from think with with we've only got from today on, so there's no point everybody today on, so there's no point everybody today on, so there's no point everybody sitting over coffee afterwards either sitting over coffee afterwards either sitting over coffee afterwards either making excuses for themselves or feeling making excuses for themselves or feeling making excuses for themselves or feeling bad. The I think the the issue is how do bad. The I think the the issue is how do bad. The I think the the issue is how do we how do we, you know, let the word,

we how do we, you know, let the word, we how do we, you know, let the word, you know, grow. So So, so just to take you know, grow. So So, so just to take you know, grow. So So, so just to take the two obvious example, I mean, two the two obvious example, I mean, two the two obvious example, I mean, two obvious things you could take away from obvious things you could take away from obvious things you could take away from today, you know. speaking as as the non- today, you know. speaking as as the non- today, you know. speaking as as the non- theologian just observing the theologian just observing the theologian just observing the theologians is number one you know that theologians is number one you know that theologians is number one you know that you don't have to sing all classic songs you don't have to sing all classic songs you don't have to sing all classic songs all the time that are four verses that all the time that are four verses that all the time that are four verses that go through the redemption story we don't go through the redemption story we don't go through the redemption story we don't you don't have to do that but but you do you don't have to do that but but you do you don't have to do that but but you do want a cannon of songs like the Psalms want a cannon of songs like the Psalms want a cannon of songs like the Psalms that your congregation can grow old with that your congregation can grow old with that your congregation can grow old with so the question of what are the 50 hymns so the question of what are the 50 hymns so the question of what are the 50 hymns and psalms that you want your and psalms that you want your and psalms that you want your congregation to be singing on their congregation to be singing on their congregation to be singing on their deathbed well start tomorrow Start today deathbed well start tomorrow Start today deathbed well start tomorrow Start today over lunch. Start on your way home over lunch. Start on your way home over lunch. Start on your way home tomorrow when you've dead timed on your tomorrow when you've dead timed on your tomorrow when you've dead timed on your flight and in the airports instead of flight and in the airports instead of flight and in the airports instead of drinking the awful coffee. Just just sit drinking the awful coffee. Just just sit drinking the awful coffee. Just just sit down and go, "Okay, let let's start down and go, "Okay, let let's start down and go, "Okay, let let's start making this list and let's go. What are making this list and let's go. What are making this list and let's go. What are the 50 we want our children when they the 50 we want our children when they the 50 we want our children when they leave our house at 18?" My first one's leave our house at 18?" My first one's leave our house at 18?" My first one's leaving in four years. And I can barely leaving in four years. And I can barely leaving in four years. And I can barely believe it. I remember the first gospel believe it. I remember the first gospel believe it. I remember the first gospel coalition we came to, she was six weeks coalition we came to, she was six weeks coalition we came to, she was six weeks old. She was six weeks old and u and uh old. She was six weeks old and u and uh old. She was six weeks old and u and uh at night she'd be gone in four years.

at night she'd be gone in four years. at night she'd be gone in four years. what what what are the great hymns of what what what are the great hymns of what what what are the great hymns of the faith I want her singing to herself the faith I want her singing to herself the faith I want her singing to herself in her dark moments of the soul and and in her dark moments of the soul and and in her dark moments of the soul and and our churches so so so begin and then our churches so so so begin and then our churches so so so begin and then begin to gradually bring those songs in begin to gradually bring those songs in begin to gradually bring those songs in and as it as with fathers similarly with and as it as with fathers similarly with and as it as with fathers similarly with pastors in the church if you're pastors in the church if you're pastors in the church if you're enthusiastic about it if you explain why enthusiastic about it if you explain why enthusiastic about it if you explain why it's important and you lead with passion it's important and you lead with passion it's important and you lead with passion your people will follow you at whatever your people will follow you at whatever your people will follow you at whatever speed they will so that's one thing I speed they will so that's one thing I speed they will so that's one thing I think secondly again the comment these think secondly again the comment these think secondly again the comment these two gentlemen to my right made about two gentlemen to my right made about two gentlemen to my right made about public prayer is so important. You know, public prayer is so important. You know, public prayer is so important. You know, it's interesting. Dr. for Martin Lo it's interesting. Dr. for Martin Lo it's interesting. Dr. for Martin Lo Jones who was at my side of the Atlantic Jones who was at my side of the Atlantic Jones who was at my side of the Atlantic um usually had guest speakers a number um usually had guest speakers a number um usually had guest speakers a number of times in his church's year and in of times in his church's year and in of times in his church's year and in almost every case he still insisted in almost every case he still insisted in almost every case he still insisted in doing the prayers because even though to doing the prayers because even though to doing the prayers because even though to be speaking in Martin Lloy Jones's be speaking in Martin Lloy Jones's be speaking in Martin Lloy Jones's pulpit was a privilege. He knew the way pulpit was a privilege. He knew the way pulpit was a privilege. He knew the way he prayed about the Lord, the way he he prayed about the Lord, the way he he prayed about the Lord, the way he prayed for his congregation's needs, the prayed for his congregation's needs, the prayed for his congregation's needs, the way he responded to the sermon on how we way he responded to the sermon on how we way he responded to the sermon on how we will live this week had more influence will live this week had more influence will live this week had more influence on how his congregation would live in on how his congregation would live in on how his congregation would live in the next week. Um I think those things the next week. Um I think those things the next week. Um I think those things are those are two very practical things are those are two very practical things are those are two very practical things and uh and uh I think in terms of and uh and uh I think in terms of and uh and uh I think in terms of singing you know the church we go to and singing you know the church we go to and singing you know the church we go to and some of the staff are hearing this they some of the staff are hearing this they some of the staff are hearing this they will tell you that over the years they will tell you that over the years they will tell you that over the years they have they have focused on a small number have they have focused on a small number have they have focused on a small number of songs and built a congregationally of songs and built a congregationally of songs and built a congregationally singing church and it is just every singing church and it is just every singing church and it is just every Sunday they said earlier about this they

Sunday they said earlier about this they Sunday they said earlier about this they reflected in this but Chris and I said a reflected in this but Chris and I said a reflected in this but Chris and I said a couple of weeks ago every Sunday is the couple of weeks ago every Sunday is the couple of weeks ago every Sunday is the highlight of our week going to church. highlight of our week going to church. highlight of our week going to church. We we don't go to the biggest church in We we don't go to the biggest church in We we don't go to the biggest church in town or the biggest budget church in town or the biggest budget church in town or the biggest budget church in town. Um but our church every Sunday town. Um but our church every Sunday town. Um but our church every Sunday they they put they they put together a they they put they they put together a they they put they they put together a beautiful service with thoughtful beautiful service with thoughtful beautiful service with thoughtful prayers where the singing is just epic prayers where the singing is just epic prayers where the singing is just epic and we study God's word and and and it's and we study God's word and and and it's and we study God's word and and and it's a it is it is it is the highlight of our a it is it is it is the highlight of our a it is it is it is the highlight of our weekend. So I don't think dependent I weekend. So I don't think dependent I weekend. So I don't think dependent I don't think your church has to have don't think your church has to have don't think your church has to have extraordinary talent and we're thankful extraordinary talent and we're thankful extraordinary talent and we're thankful for extraordinary talent but it doesn't for extraordinary talent but it doesn't for extraordinary talent but it doesn't have to have that. And so I think those have to have that. And so I think those have to have that. And so I think those things are first. Um, and I let let me things are first. Um, and I let let me things are first. Um, and I let let me just say I don't know why I'm saying all just say I don't know why I'm saying all just say I don't know why I'm saying all this now, but you know, honestly right this now, but you know, honestly right this now, but you know, honestly right now that the biggest weakness I have now that the biggest weakness I have now that the biggest weakness I have noticed in in confessional churches in noticed in in confessional churches in noticed in in confessional churches in their singing is this need to constantly their singing is this need to constantly their singing is this need to constantly do our own songs. And I'm a songwriter do our own songs. And I'm a songwriter do our own songs. And I'm a songwriter and a song publisher, so I believe in and a song publisher, so I believe in and a song publisher, so I believe in doing songs that work. But I mean, I I doing songs that work. But I mean, I I doing songs that work. But I mean, I I probably I was taught by a guy called probably I was taught by a guy called probably I was taught by a guy called Stuart Townend who for eight years I Stuart Townend who for eight years I Stuart Townend who for eight years I visited him once a month for eight visited him once a month for eight visited him once a month for eight years. So almost a hundred visits. I had years. So almost a hundred visits. I had years. So almost a hundred visits. I had to pay for most of them as well. I had to pay for most of them as well. I had to pay for most of them as well. I had to pay on an easy jet an easy jet flight to pay on an easy jet an easy jet flight to pay on an easy jet an easy jet flight to London uh to go see him. And we we to London uh to go see him. And we we to London uh to go see him. And we we finished we finished 24 songs in eight finished we finished 24 songs in eight finished we finished 24 songs in eight years. So I never I never finished more years. So I never I never finished more years. So I never I never finished more than three songs a year. So I never did.

than three songs a year. So I never did. than three songs a year. So I never did. Do you know what I mean? I probably Do you know what I mean? I probably Do you know what I mean? I probably wrote 500 to a thousand a year certainly wrote 500 to a thousand a year certainly wrote 500 to a thousand a year certainly melodies and I never finished more than melodies and I never finished more than melodies and I never finished more than three a year. And so, you know, if your three a year. And so, you know, if your three a year. And so, you know, if your church are doing more than six new songs church are doing more than six new songs church are doing more than six new songs a year, three to six more songs a year, a year, three to six more songs a year, a year, three to six more songs a year, that's that is exhausting your that's that is exhausting your that's that is exhausting your congregation. They're not enjoying congregation. They're not enjoying congregation. They're not enjoying singing. They are not singing well. singing. They are not singing well. singing. They are not singing well. Well, in this just a little tip, just Well, in this just a little tip, just Well, in this just a little tip, just just just just just if we're trying to make Sunday a just if we're trying to make Sunday a just if we're trying to make Sunday a rich celebration, that can absolutely rich celebration, that can absolutely rich celebration, that can absolutely deflate a congregation because singing deflate a congregation because singing deflate a congregation because singing singing is a physical exercise. So, it's singing is a physical exercise. So, it's singing is a physical exercise. So, it's based on repetition. It's based on on on based on repetition. It's based on on on based on repetition. It's based on on on connection and we're singing to one connection and we're singing to one connection and we're singing to one another. So if we can't sing then another. So if we can't sing then another. So if we can't sing then there's a there's a there's a communal there's a there's a there's a communal there's a there's a there's a communal blessing that's lost as well. And to add blessing that's lost as well. And to add blessing that's lost as well. And to add to what you're saying uh I am not John to what you're saying uh I am not John to what you're saying uh I am not John Piper Piper Piper uh as a preacher and some music leaders uh as a preacher and some music leaders uh as a preacher and some music leaders are not Keith are not Keith are not Keith Gettys. And uh unfortunately I think so Gettys. And uh unfortunately I think so Gettys. And uh unfortunately I think so many uh music leaders in local churches many uh music leaders in local churches many uh music leaders in local churches think that they're not doing their job think that they're not doing their job think that they're not doing their job if they don't produce their own if they don't produce their own if they don't produce their own compositions for their congregations.

compositions for their congregations. compositions for their congregations. And that's a big mistake. Uh because And that's a big mistake. Uh because And that's a big mistake. Uh because there's a lot good out there. And to there's a lot good out there. And to there's a lot good out there. And to pick up on what you were saying, Keith pick up on what you were saying, Keith pick up on what you were saying, Keith Keith, to have 50 hymns that I know by Keith, to have 50 hymns that I know by Keith, to have 50 hymns that I know by memory that I can sing without my memory that I can sing without my memory that I can sing without my eyeballs and without my ears when I'm 90 eyeballs and without my ears when I'm 90 eyeballs and without my ears when I'm 90 years old in my on my bed. That's worth years old in my on my bed. That's worth years old in my on my bed. That's worth a lot. Give me the 50 best ones. Matt, I a lot. Give me the 50 best ones. Matt, I a lot. Give me the 50 best ones. Matt, I think when you planted your church, your think when you planted your church, your think when you planted your church, your first song was Holy, holy, holy. I read first song was Holy, holy, holy. I read first song was Holy, holy, holy. I read that somewhere. That was a good start, that somewhere. That was a good start, that somewhere. That was a good start, wasn't it? That was a good start, Lig. wasn't it? That was a good start, Lig. wasn't it? That was a good start, Lig. uh you you've said before that your uh you you've said before that your uh you you've said before that your concern is that the church concern is that the church concern is that the church often uh likes to watch and and hear often uh likes to watch and and hear often uh likes to watch and and hear songs. They don't like to sing them. songs. They don't like to sing them. songs. They don't like to sing them. What is the solution to this problem? What is the solution to this problem? What is the solution to this problem? And I'd like for you two guys to address And I'd like for you two guys to address And I'd like for you two guys to address that, too. How do we re-engage the that, too. How do we re-engage the that, too. How do we re-engage the church in actually singing the songs church in actually singing the songs church in actually singing the songs without the help of a PA system without the help of a PA system without the help of a PA system projecting four fine trained voices that projecting four fine trained voices that projecting four fine trained voices that makes everybody feel like they're makes everybody feel like they're makes everybody feel like they're singing but they're not? How do we get singing but they're not? How do we get singing but they're not? How do we get congregations to sing again? Well, congregations to sing again? Well, congregations to sing again? Well, again, part of that is is recognizing again, part of that is is recognizing again, part of that is is recognizing that we're not the audience, that we're that we're not the audience, that we're that we're not the audience, that we're the worshippers. And we we've had my the worshippers. And we we've had my the worshippers. And we we've had my generation did this. So, it's my generation did this. So, it's my generation did this. So, it's my generation's fault. We're I'm I'm a I'm generation's fault. We're I'm I'm a I'm generation's fault. We're I'm I'm a I'm a late boomer. And the boomers decided a late boomer. And the boomers decided a late boomer. And the boomers decided the way to attract people to church was the way to attract people to church was the way to attract people to church was to do music that you liked. And so that to do music that you liked. And so that to do music that you liked. And so that it definitely conveyed them the idea it definitely conveyed them the idea it definitely conveyed them the idea that our job up here is to make you that our job up here is to make you that our job up here is to make you happy. Uh and and that makes you a happy. Uh and and that makes you a happy. Uh and and that makes you a consumer. And it and the way you

consumer. And it and the way you consumer. And it and the way you participate is actually not by singing, participate is actually not by singing, participate is actually not by singing, but by listening. I I've been struck by but by listening. I I've been struck by but by listening. I I've been struck by how many mega churches I go to and four how many mega churches I go to and four how many mega churches I go to and four rows back from the front, no one in the rows back from the front, no one in the rows back from the front, no one in the room is singing. Everybody has their room is singing. Everybody has their room is singing. Everybody has their hands in their pockets and they're hands in their pockets and they're hands in their pockets and they're watching and they're listening. Now, the watching and they're listening. Now, the watching and they're listening. Now, the people on the front rows have their people on the front rows have their people on the front rows have their hands up. They're singing loud. They're hands up. They're singing loud. They're hands up. They're singing loud. They're moving bodily with the with the band on moving bodily with the with the band on moving bodily with the with the band on the stage, but the people in the back the stage, but the people in the back the stage, but the people in the back are just watching it happen. And so, are just watching it happen. And so, are just watching it happen. And so, whatever has happened in that culture, whatever has happened in that culture, whatever has happened in that culture, we've conveyed that music is what you we've conveyed that music is what you we've conveyed that music is what you watch and listen. Uh and and what what watch and listen. Uh and and what what watch and listen. Uh and and what what we need to say is no no that's there to we need to say is no no that's there to we need to say is no no that's there to help you do what you're supposed to be help you do what you're supposed to be help you do what you're supposed to be doing. And this by interest this hit me doing. And this by interest this hit me doing. And this by interest this hit me as a Presbyterian when when I was in as a Presbyterian when when I was in as a Presbyterian when when I was in Scotland. One of the places that I would Scotland. One of the places that I would Scotland. One of the places that I would worship was a congregation where they worship was a congregation where they worship was a congregation where they only sang psalms and used no musical only sang psalms and used no musical only sang psalms and used no musical instruments. Now that's a venerable instruments. Now that's a venerable instruments. Now that's a venerable tradition. That's not the tradition I tradition. That's not the tradition I tradition. That's not the tradition I grew up in and it's not the tradition grew up in and it's not the tradition grew up in and it's not the tradition that I'm in now. Nor do I commend that.

that I'm in now. Nor do I commend that. that I'm in now. Nor do I commend that. But I I learned a lot in that setting. But I I learned a lot in that setting. But I I learned a lot in that setting. And one of the things I learned is if And one of the things I learned is if And one of the things I learned is if any worshshiping is going to get done any worshshiping is going to get done any worshshiping is going to get done today, I'm going to have to do it today, I'm going to have to do it today, I'm going to have to do it because nobody is up there doing it for because nobody is up there doing it for because nobody is up there doing it for me, right? So, uh, that was a good and I me, right? So, uh, that was a good and I me, right? So, uh, that was a good and I grew I'm the son of a choir director. grew I'm the son of a choir director. grew I'm the son of a choir director. So, I I had no choice but from the time So, I I had no choice but from the time So, I I had no choice but from the time of two to sing and to be in the of two to sing and to be in the of two to sing and to be in the children's choirs and to be in the adult children's choirs and to be in the adult children's choirs and to be in the adult choir and and and that was a part of choir and and and that was a part of choir and and and that was a part of life. And I loved hearing the piano and life. And I loved hearing the piano and life. And I loved hearing the piano and the organ, the other instruments that the organ, the other instruments that the organ, the other instruments that were that were p. But in that context were that were p. But in that context were that were p. But in that context where there is no instrumentation, I where there is no instrumentation, I where there is no instrumentation, I realized, okay, I'm going to have to do realized, okay, I'm going to have to do realized, okay, I'm going to have to do this myself. I I'm going to have to be this myself. I I'm going to have to be this myself. I I'm going to have to be the one making music to the Lord. I'm the one making music to the Lord. I'm the one making music to the Lord. I'm going to have to be the one singing. And going to have to be the one singing. And going to have to be the one singing. And we need to cultivate that attitude using we need to cultivate that attitude using we need to cultivate that attitude using the music that we provide to the the music that we provide to the the music that we provide to the congregation. We're just here to help congregation. We're just here to help congregation. We're just here to help you do your job, which is to give to God you do your job, which is to give to God you do your job, which is to give to God the glory, do his praise. So I I do the glory, do his praise. So I I do the glory, do his praise. So I I do think we have a passive sort of attitude think we have a passive sort of attitude think we have a passive sort of attitude in a lot of evangelicalism to worship.

in a lot of evangelicalism to worship. in a lot of evangelicalism to worship. I'm I'm going to listen actively when I'm I'm going to listen actively when I'm I'm going to listen actively when the pastor preaches, but during the time the pastor preaches, but during the time the pastor preaches, but during the time of singing, I'm going to sit back and of singing, I'm going to sit back and of singing, I'm going to sit back and enjoy what I like when in fact these enjoy what I like when in fact these enjoy what I like when in fact these guys I mean they don't want you to hate guys I mean they don't want you to hate guys I mean they don't want you to hate it, but they're they're there to help it, but they're they're there to help it, but they're they're there to help you give something to God. And they they you give something to God. And they they you give something to God. And they they want to do that as well as they can. And want to do that as well as they can. And want to do that as well as they can. And that means singable that means singable that means singable tunes, memorable biblical lyrics, uh tunes, memorable biblical lyrics, uh tunes, memorable biblical lyrics, uh things that you can sing on your things that you can sing on your things that you can sing on your deathbed or when your child is in the deathbed or when your child is in the deathbed or when your child is in the hospital or when there's been a terrible hospital or when there's been a terrible hospital or when there's been a terrible situation in your life, but they're situation in your life, but they're situation in your life, but they're there to help you. They're not replacing there to help you. They're not replacing there to help you. They're not replacing you, and they're not there just to you, and they're not there just to you, and they're not there just to please you. They're there to help you please you. They're there to help you please you. They're there to help you give to God glory and praise. give to God glory and praise. give to God glory and praise. Well, let me just uh if if I were to Well, let me just uh if if I were to Well, let me just uh if if I were to look back um just almost seven years ago look back um just almost seven years ago look back um just almost seven years ago to when we were planting a new church, to when we were planting a new church, to when we were planting a new church, you've got a lot of decisions in the you've got a lot of decisions in the you've got a lot of decisions in the early days of a church to set the early days of a church to set the early days of a church to set the culture uh Lord willing for a long time.

culture uh Lord willing for a long time. culture uh Lord willing for a long time. And so some of the things we did was And so some of the things we did was And so some of the things we did was just start with the question was how do just start with the question was how do just start with the question was how do we get the church singing more? And so we get the church singing more? And so we get the church singing more? And so we we started with, like Keith said, a we we started with, like Keith said, a we we started with, like Keith said, a small group of songs that were great small group of songs that were great small group of songs that were great songs that we could sing well from uh songs that we could sing well from uh songs that we could sing well from uh the 5-year-old girl to our oldest church the 5-year-old girl to our oldest church the 5-year-old girl to our oldest church member is my grandmother. Uh she is 89. member is my grandmother. Uh she is 89. member is my grandmother. Uh she is 89. And so I want a 5-year-old girl and my And so I want a 5-year-old girl and my And so I want a 5-year-old girl and my grandmother both able to sing the songs grandmother both able to sing the songs grandmother both able to sing the songs that we sing. Um that we sing. Um that we sing. Um second, many evangelical Bible preaching second, many evangelical Bible preaching second, many evangelical Bible preaching churches still you walk in and the churches still you walk in and the churches still you walk in and the lights are very uh very low. lights are very uh very low. lights are very uh very low. And the only thing lit is what's And the only thing lit is what's And the only thing lit is what's happening on the stage. So even the happening on the stage. So even the happening on the stage. So even the aesthetics of that speak the wrong aesthetics of that speak the wrong aesthetics of that speak the wrong message. We're saying what happens up message. We're saying what happens up message. We're saying what happens up there should be under the lights. And so there should be under the lights. And so there should be under the lights. And so we're just very practical way is just to we're just very practical way is just to we're just very practical way is just to lift the house lights um in our worship lift the house lights um in our worship lift the house lights um in our worship spaces. Um that will help us recognize spaces. Um that will help us recognize spaces. Um that will help us recognize well even practicing Ephesians 5:19 well even practicing Ephesians 5:19 well even practicing Ephesians 5:19 Colossians uh 3. We're singing to one Colossians uh 3. We're singing to one Colossians uh 3. We're singing to one another. Uh when the lights are so low another. Uh when the lights are so low another. Uh when the lights are so low you're just singing into the abyss. And you're just singing into the abyss. And you're just singing into the abyss. And so, uh, turning the, and this is so, uh, turning the, and this is so, uh, turning the, and this is uncomfortable. I realize what I'm saying uncomfortable. I realize what I'm saying uncomfortable. I realize what I'm saying right now. This is incredibly shocking, right now. This is incredibly shocking, right now. This is incredibly shocking, actually.

actually. actually. And then also turn the volume down a And then also turn the volume down a And then also turn the volume down a bit. Uh, it's bit. Uh, it's bit. Uh, it's like, thank you, ma'am. like, thank you, ma'am. like, thank you, ma'am. But you just Yeah. So, if you turn the But you just Yeah. So, if you turn the But you just Yeah. So, if you turn the lights uh the lights up and the volume lights uh the lights up and the volume lights uh the lights up and the volume down, it'll help your churches sing down, it'll help your churches sing down, it'll help your churches sing better because they'll recognize how how better because they'll recognize how how better because they'll recognize how how much uh and we want good instruments. We much uh and we want good instruments. We much uh and we want good instruments. We want a great We want great musicians want a great We want great musicians want a great We want great musicians helping lead our churches in song, but helping lead our churches in song, but helping lead our churches in song, but they're there to help facilitate the they're there to help facilitate the they're there to help facilitate the congregation in singing. And so if you congregation in singing. And so if you congregation in singing. And so if you just turn the volume down a bit, then just turn the volume down a bit, then just turn the volume down a bit, then the church can hear themselves and then the church can hear themselves and then the church can hear themselves and then they begin to recognize how much they they begin to recognize how much they they begin to recognize how much they enjoy hearing themselves. It's enjoy hearing themselves. It's enjoy hearing themselves. It's incredibly life-giving. You're meant to incredibly life-giving. You're meant to incredibly life-giving. You're meant to do this together. And so the more the do this together. And so the more the do this together. And so the more the church can sing, uh the another thing church can sing, uh the another thing church can sing, uh the another thing would just be singing. This is very would just be singing. This is very would just be singing. This is very practical, but just singing in keys that practical, but just singing in keys that practical, but just singing in keys that normal people can sing in. Amen. This is normal people can sing in. Amen. This is normal people can sing in. Amen. This is very important. Uh it's just very very important. Uh it's just very very important. Uh it's just very important. Um and then I'll transition important. Um and then I'll transition important. Um and then I'll transition to Keith because he would add that if to Keith because he would add that if to Keith because he would add that if you want a singing church that begins you want a singing church that begins you want a singing church that begins with a singing pastor.

with a singing pastor. with a singing pastor. Matt, would you consider being a Matt, would you consider being a Matt, would you consider being a professor of ministry of worship professor of ministry of worship professor of ministry of worship somewhere? I think you're going to do a really good I think you're going to do a really good job at Midwestern Seminary. job at Midwestern Seminary. job at Midwestern Seminary. Keith, give us your thoughts on that Keith, give us your thoughts on that Keith, give us your thoughts on that question. What was the question? question. What was the question? question. What was the question? Well, it was it was how do we make help Well, it was it was how do we make help Well, it was it was how do we make help our churches sing better? And you always our churches sing better? And you always our churches sing better? And you always talk about the importance of of the talk about the importance of of the talk about the importance of of the pastor. I want to know what church, pastor. I want to know what church, pastor. I want to know what church, Keith, what were you thinking about Keith, what were you thinking about Keith, what were you thinking about while the rest of us were talking? You while the rest of us were talking? You while the rest of us were talking? You know, I actually don't know what I was know, I actually don't know what I was know, I actually don't know what I was thinking about. I It's the empty box. thinking about. I It's the empty box. thinking about. I It's the empty box. Men have a box. Yeah. I turned. And when Men have a box. Yeah. I turned. And when Men have a box. Yeah. I turned. And when they say they're thinking of nothing, they say they're thinking of nothing, they say they're thinking of nothing, it's true. They're thinking of actually it's true. They're thinking of actually it's true. They're thinking of actually nothing. I turned 50 in December. That nothing. I turned 50 in December. That nothing. I turned 50 in December. That explains it. And someone someone said, explains it. And someone someone said, explains it. And someone someone said, "What's it what's it like turning 50?" I "What's it what's it like turning 50?" I "What's it what's it like turning 50?" I said, "I don't know. Young young people said, "I don't know. Young young people said, "I don't know. Young young people look younger. Stairs look look younger. Stairs look look younger. Stairs look taller." And I've forgotten what the taller." And I've forgotten what the taller." And I've forgotten what the third thing was. So, but but you know. Yeah, I think yeah, I think I you know. Yeah, I think yeah, I think I I kind of I I stole into their answers I kind of I I stole into their answers I kind of I I stole into their answers in the first question, so I don't I in the first question, so I don't I in the first question, so I don't I don't push it too far, but they I I don't push it too far, but they I I don't push it too far, but they I I agree with Matt. Yeah, it's you know, agree with Matt. Yeah, it's you know, agree with Matt. Yeah, it's you know, it's Well, it's it's you know, dads who it's Well, it's it's you know, dads who it's Well, it's it's you know, dads who don't sing is no good thing. So, if a don't sing is no good thing. So, if a don't sing is no good thing. So, if a dad doesn't sing, even money, their sons dad doesn't sing, even money, their sons dad doesn't sing, even money, their sons don't sing. His sons don't sing. Most of don't sing. His sons don't sing. Most of don't sing. His sons don't sing. Most of his kids are apathetic during worship.

his kids are apathetic during worship. his kids are apathetic during worship. Do you know what I mean? So, so dads Do you know what I mean? So, so dads Do you know what I mean? So, so dads sing, but then that goes up a level. sing, but then that goes up a level. sing, but then that goes up a level. Pastors sing. If you're a P, you know, Pastors sing. If you're a P, you know, Pastors sing. If you're a P, you know, people I've got asked the question so people I've got asked the question so people I've got asked the question so many times as you've traveled around many times as you've traveled around many times as you've traveled around what churches sing the best and I want what churches sing the best and I want what churches sing the best and I want them to say, "Oh, churches, you know, them to say, "Oh, churches, you know, them to say, "Oh, churches, you know, agree with me or sing my songs and of agree with me or sing my songs and of agree with me or sing my songs and of course or have artistically high course or have artistically high course or have artistically high standards because I I believe in those standards because I I believe in those standards because I I believe in those things so very much." But that's not the things so very much." But that's not the things so very much." But that's not the truth. The truth is it's almost always truth. The truth is it's almost always truth. The truth is it's almost always the churches where the pastor has the churches where the pastor has the churches where the pastor has decided that singing is very important decided that singing is very important decided that singing is very important and he's inevitably in the front row or and he's inevitably in the front row or and he's inevitably in the front row or on the stage singing his gut out. And on the stage singing his gut out. And on the stage singing his gut out. And you know, if he's charismatic, his hands you know, if he's charismatic, his hands you know, if he's charismatic, his hands go up higher. If he's conservative, his go up higher. If he's conservative, his go up higher. If he's conservative, his fists go tighter. And it's so and fists go tighter. And it's so and fists go tighter. And it's so and whatever it is. But but he is singing. whatever it is. But but he is singing. whatever it is. But but he is singing. He is singing and he believes in great He is singing and he believes in great He is singing and he believes in great songs. So the the first message is for songs. So the the first message is for songs. So the the first message is for pastors and for dads. And if you want to pastors and for dads. And if you want to pastors and for dads. And if you want to extend that pastors to dads, do not let extend that pastors to dads, do not let extend that pastors to dads, do not let dads away with it. That's a great point. dads away with it. That's a great point. dads away with it. That's a great point. Do not let dads away with it. Pastors Do not let dads away with it. Pastors Do not let dads away with it. Pastors have the courage and have the integrity have the courage and have the integrity have the courage and have the integrity to make sure to make sure that they to make sure to make sure that they to make sure to make sure that they understand that we are created to sing, understand that we are created to sing, understand that we are created to sing, that we are commanded to sing. second that we are commanded to sing. second that we are commanded to sing. second most common command in all of scripture most common command in all of scripture most common command in all of scripture and that indeed the beauty of Christ and that indeed the beauty of Christ and that indeed the beauty of Christ compels us to do nothing else but sing compels us to do nothing else but sing compels us to do nothing else but sing and there's no greater. My wife sent my and there's no greater. My wife sent my and there's no greater. My wife sent my wife passed me a thing from the ESV wife passed me a thing from the ESV wife passed me a thing from the ESV study Bible this morning. See how I study Bible this morning. See how I study Bible this morning. See how I dropped an ESV? Yeah, I did. I dropped an ESV? Yeah, I did. I dropped an ESV? Yeah, I did. I sponsoring the conference and uh uh this sponsoring the conference and uh uh this sponsoring the conference and uh uh this morning just on it is there I kind of morning just on it is there I kind of morning just on it is there I kind of paraphrase it this morning. There is no paraphrase it this morning. There is no paraphrase it this morning. There is no greater gift than being able to commune greater gift than being able to commune greater gift than being able to commune with our heavenly father. you know, you with our heavenly father. you know, you with our heavenly father. you know, you know, however, and I'm a sports fanatic,

know, however, and I'm a sports fanatic, know, however, and I'm a sports fanatic, but however well my sports teams do and but however well my sports teams do and but however well my sports teams do and however much fun we have, you know, when however much fun we have, you know, when however much fun we have, you know, when uh, you know, with hospitality or uh, you know, with hospitality or uh, you know, with hospitality or whatever else, you know, the joy of whatever else, you know, the joy of whatever else, you know, the joy of singing to God's people is the greatest singing to God's people is the greatest singing to God's people is the greatest thing. So, senior pastors take the lead, thing. So, senior pastors take the lead, thing. So, senior pastors take the lead, dads take the lead, senior pastors make dads take the lead, senior pastors make dads take the lead, senior pastors make sure dads are taking the lead. Keith and sure dads are taking the lead. Keith and sure dads are taking the lead. Keith and Matt, let me ask you this question. What Matt, let me ask you this question. What Matt, let me ask you this question. What makes for a really good congregational makes for a really good congregational makes for a really good congregational hymn or song? What are the elements that hymn or song? What are the elements that hymn or song? What are the elements that you look for? I I was actually gonna you look for? I I was actually gonna you look for? I I was actually gonna actually say say that next, Sandy. If I actually say say that next, Sandy. If I actually say say that next, Sandy. If I worked out how to do it, I promise you I worked out how to do it, I promise you I worked out how to do it, I promise you I wouldn't tell you. Do you know what I wouldn't tell you. Do you know what I wouldn't tell you. Do you know what I mean? If I I wouldn't be telling mean? If I I wouldn't be telling mean? If I I wouldn't be telling anybody. I would just be doing it. So, anybody. I would just be doing it. So, anybody. I would just be doing it. So, um I mean, I like you all. You're good um I mean, I like you all. You're good um I mean, I like you all. You're good people, you know, very fond of a lot of people, you know, very fond of a lot of people, you know, very fond of a lot of you. But no, I'll be I'll be keeping it you. But no, I'll be I'll be keeping it you. But no, I'll be I'll be keeping it and just letting working it out myself. and just letting working it out myself. and just letting working it out myself. But no, I I think I think singing great But no, I I think I think singing great But no, I I think I think singing great songs, singing great songs makes great songs, singing great songs makes great songs, singing great songs makes great congregational singing, you know, and so congregational singing, you know, and so congregational singing, you know, and so if if if you look at your service and if if if you look at your service and if if if you look at your service and I've just on the way here changed the I've just on the way here changed the I've just on the way here changed the order for tomorrow morning because one order for tomorrow morning because one order for tomorrow morning because one of the songs didn't work and it's and of the songs didn't work and it's and of the songs didn't work and it's and it's a tension, you know, I you know, my it's a tension, you know, I you know, my it's a tension, you know, I you know, my and my pastor's here in the room and you and my pastor's here in the room and you and my pastor's here in the room and you know, if your pastor says, "This is what know, if your pastor says, "This is what know, if your pastor says, "This is what we're doing. This is what we're And I we're doing. This is what we're And I we're doing. This is what we're And I mean John wouldn't mind me saying, you mean John wouldn't mind me saying, you mean John wouldn't mind me saying, you know, John and I, John Piper and I have know, John and I, John Piper and I have know, John and I, John Piper and I have been doing events together for 15 years.

been doing events together for 15 years. been doing events together for 15 years. He's spoken almost every year at the He's spoken almost every year at the He's spoken almost every year at the same conference. And uh we've had a week same conference. And uh we've had a week same conference. And uh we've had a week of going back and forwards in that of going back and forwards in that of going back and forwards in that closing game because he suggested to him closing game because he suggested to him closing game because he suggested to him that he felt really fitted the passage. that he felt really fitted the passage. that he felt really fitted the passage. And of course, if John had insisted on And of course, if John had insisted on And of course, if John had insisted on it, I would have done it. But I had to it, I would have done it. But I had to it, I would have done it. But I had to very politely text him back. And it was very politely text him back. And it was very politely text him back. And it was particularly embarrassing because one of particularly embarrassing because one of particularly embarrassing because one of them I co-wrote and I went, you know, I them I co-wrote and I went, you know, I them I co-wrote and I went, you know, I think I I see why you think this about think I I see why you think this about think I I see why you think this about these two songs, but I don't think they these two songs, but I don't think they these two songs, but I don't think they have enough of a response that our have enough of a response that our have enough of a response that our emotions need for the end of your emotions need for the end of your emotions need for the end of your sermon. And we ended up going with the sermon. And we ended up going with the sermon. And we ended up going with the city of light song, yet not I. Um, which city of light song, yet not I. Um, which city of light song, yet not I. Um, which again it, you know, it might have been again it, you know, it might have been again it, you know, it might have been better to have something which had more better to have something which had more better to have something which had more of a a praise and glorify thing about of a a praise and glorify thing about of a a praise and glorify thing about it. But I thought in the overall in the it. But I thought in the overall in the it. But I thought in the overall in the overall movement of the sermon to do overall movement of the sermon to do overall movement of the sermon to do that was a better response to finish the that was a better response to finish the that was a better response to finish the sermon and would elucidate better sermon and would elucidate better sermon and would elucidate better singing than you. But wasn't that right singing than you. But wasn't that right singing than you. But wasn't that right there a good example of how a liturgist there a good example of how a liturgist there a good example of how a liturgist and a a musician work together? Yeah. and a a musician work together? Yeah. and a a musician work together? Yeah. Yeah. And to be clear, if John would Yeah. And to be clear, if John would Yeah. And to be clear, if John would have said, "I want to go for this," I have said, "I want to go for this," I have said, "I want to go for this," I would have said, "Okay, John, we'll go would have said, "Okay, John, we'll go would have said, "Okay, John, we'll go for it." But but they just they were one for it." But but they just they were one for it." But but they just they were one of neither of them honestly a lot of it of neither of them honestly a lot of it of neither of them honestly a lot of it was compositional neither of them were was compositional neither of them were was compositional neither of them were just good enough that you guys would just good enough that you guys would just good enough that you guys would have relished singing that last song and have relished singing that last song and have relished singing that last song and so in the end we had to you know and we so in the end we had to you know and we so in the end we had to you know and we we finally last night he texted me I we finally last night he texted me I we finally last night he texted me I just parked up Bloomington in the way just parked up Bloomington in the way just parked up Bloomington in the way here he texted me and says I think we here he texted me and says I think we here he texted me and says I think we should go with your instinct in this he should go with your instinct in this he should go with your instinct in this he says there there will be enough in that says there there will be enough in that says there there will be enough in that with the movement of what we're doing with the movement of what we're doing with the movement of what we're doing that it would be a good finish. So, so that it would be a good finish. So, so that it would be a good finish. So, so but so yeah, I think I think having a

but so yeah, I think I think having a but so yeah, I think I think having a great relationship with with with your great relationship with with with your great relationship with with with your with your pastor or preacher is with your pastor or preacher is with your pastor or preacher is important, but just the power of a great important, but just the power of a great important, but just the power of a great song. Great songs, you know, great songs song. Great songs, you know, great songs song. Great songs, you know, great songs have changed human history at every have changed human history at every have changed human history at every level, whether it be whether it be a level, whether it be whether it be a level, whether it be whether it be a political history, whether it be whether political history, whether it be whether political history, whether it be whether it be uh Christian history, and and it be uh Christian history, and and it be uh Christian history, and and that's the power they have. So I I think that's the power they have. So I I think that's the power they have. So I I think being able to focus on songs that show being able to focus on songs that show being able to focus on songs that show us show us God in a fresh way like no us show us God in a fresh way like no us show us God in a fresh way like no other song does and are just other song does and are just other song does and are just irresistible to sing. We changed another irresistible to sing. We changed another irresistible to sing. We changed another one this morning. We the third song this one this morning. We the third song this one this morning. We the third song this morning was was a slightly more up song. morning was was a slightly more up song. morning was was a slightly more up song. We had flipped it because we thought a We had flipped it because we thought a We had flipped it because we thought a conference like this probably needs conference like this probably needs conference like this probably needs something a real real rocking song in something a real real rocking song in something a real real rocking song in the first set. And Bos and I were the first set. And Bos and I were the first set. And Bos and I were backstage and going now we want to we backstage and going now we want to we backstage and going now we want to we want to do Chris's Victor because it want to do Chris's Victor because it want to do Chris's Victor because it also fits the passage. But it just it also fits the passage. But it just it also fits the passage. But it just it was just a better song and the table was just a better song and the table was just a better song and the table went backwards and went now it works went backwards and went now it works went backwards and went now it works better. So So you you do it is a wrestle better. So So you you do it is a wrestle better. So So you you do it is a wrestle all the time. I think it's a I find it all the time. I think it's a I find it all the time. I think it's a I find it very hard to get the right song for very hard to get the right song for very hard to get the right song for every set and and to do it well and for every set and and to do it well and for every set and and to do it well and for services. But I think it's a battle services. But I think it's a battle services. But I think it's a battle worth fighting and if in doubt if in worth fighting and if in doubt if in worth fighting and if in doubt if in doubt go for the song that sings better.

doubt go for the song that sings better. doubt go for the song that sings better. Do you know what I mean? goes great. So Do you know what I mean? goes great. So Do you know what I mean? goes great. So because it's not, you know, there again, because it's not, you know, there again, because it's not, you know, there again, I'm not trying to I'm not trying to I'm not trying to I'm not trying to I'm not trying to I'm not trying to badmouth movements that have happened, badmouth movements that have happened, badmouth movements that have happened, but but some of the movements happened but but some of the movements happened but but some of the movements happened in the last 50 years became matchy in the last 50 years became matchy in the last 50 years became matchy matchy where if Ligan was preaching on matchy where if Ligan was preaching on matchy where if Ligan was preaching on five loaves and two fishes, you had to five loaves and two fishes, you had to five loaves and two fishes, you had to have a song about bread and a song about have a song about bread and a song about have a song about bread and a song about fish and a song about fishing or fish and a song about fishing or fish and a song about fishing or something like this. And it was just something like this. And it was just something like this. And it was just like who cares? It's just stupid. Do you like who cares? It's just stupid. Do you like who cares? It's just stupid. Do you mean that's not what it's actually about mean that's not what it's actually about mean that's not what it's actually about anyway? Don't dumb. Do you know what I anyway? Don't dumb. Do you know what I anyway? Don't dumb. Do you know what I mean? And so we're actually want to sing mean? And so we're actually want to sing mean? And so we're actually want to sing songs about the greatness of God and the songs about the greatness of God and the songs about the greatness of God and the wonder that we get that that that we of wonder that we get that that that we of wonder that we get that that that we of the good news of this this incredible the good news of this this incredible the good news of this this incredible and most improbable gospel message that and most improbable gospel message that and most improbable gospel message that transforms every senue of our being, you transforms every senue of our being, you transforms every senue of our being, you know. So when you think about a great know. So when you think about a great know. So when you think about a great song, obviously sound theology, you song, obviously sound theology, you song, obviously sound theology, you know, in the lyrics. It needs to be know, in the lyrics. It needs to be know, in the lyrics. It needs to be singable. Yeah. By a congregation. I singable. Yeah. By a congregation. I singable. Yeah. By a congregation. I would not use either of those words. I would not use either of those words. I would not use either of those words. I would not use either of those words. would not use either of those words. would not use either of those words. Okay. I think they're and it needs to be Okay. I think they're and it needs to be Okay. I think they're and it needs to be well written. So now what would you well written. So now what would you well written. So now what would you amend in? Yeah. No, I I think sound amend in? Yeah. No, I I think sound amend in? Yeah. No, I I think sound theology and singable is is too theology and singable is is too theology and singable is is too defensive. I think the theology the defensive. I think the theology the defensive. I think the theology the theology the theology has to make you theology the theology has to make you theology the theology has to make you think. It has think. It has think. It has to it has to so fill your mind and being to it has to so fill your mind and being to it has to so fill your mind and being with imagination and praise that it is with imagination and praise that it is with imagination and praise that it is overwhelming. Of course, it's sound as overwhelming. Of course, it's sound as overwhelming. Of course, it's sound as well. But but your your friend you well. But but your your friend you well. But but your your friend you mentioned earlier who contributed to mentioned earlier who contributed to mentioned earlier who contributed to your Sunday morning service became a your Sunday morning service became a your Sunday morning service became a Christian as an adult at Oxford Christian as an adult at Oxford Christian as an adult at Oxford University called Charles Wesley and he University called Charles Wesley and he University called Charles Wesley and he actually wrote a song about becoming a actually wrote a song about becoming a actually wrote a song about becoming a Christian but he didn't kind of create

Christian but he didn't kind of create Christian but he didn't kind of create this kind of judicial kind of song that this kind of judicial kind of song that this kind of judicial kind of song that that was saying you know that just made that was saying you know that just made that was saying you know that just made theological statements he said long my theological statements he said long my theological statements he said long my imprisoned lay fast sin in nature's imprisoned lay fast sin in nature's imprisoned lay fast sin in nature's night thine night diffused the night thine night diffused the night thine night diffused the quickening I Pause. The dungeon flame quickening I Pause. The dungeon flame quickening I Pause. The dungeon flame with light. My chains fell off. My heart with light. My chains fell off. My heart with light. My chains fell off. My heart was for air rose for. And the point is was for air rose for. And the point is was for air rose for. And the point is he was never a beautiful duet. He was he was never a beautiful duet. He was he was never a beautiful duet. He was never thinking it'll it'll be available never thinking it'll it'll be available never thinking it'll it'll be available in Spotify Friday morning. But the the in Spotify Friday morning. But the the in Spotify Friday morning. But the the point is he's not trying to be sound. point is he's not trying to be sound. point is he's not trying to be sound. He's trying to fill your mind with He's trying to fill your mind with He's trying to fill your mind with wonder. So that's that and that's what wonder. So that's that and that's what wonder. So that's that and that's what the lyrics have to do. And if you're a the lyrics have to do. And if you're a the lyrics have to do. And if you're a writer here as well, you know, we we get writer here as well, you know, we we get writer here as well, you know, we we get sent all these songs that are like kind sent all these songs that are like kind sent all these songs that are like kind of paraphrases of of of Romans 1 or of paraphrases of of of Romans 1 or of paraphrases of of of Romans 1 or something and it's just they're something and it's just they're something and it's just they're horrible. Do you know what I mean? horrible. Do you know what I mean? horrible. Do you know what I mean? Romans 1 is wonderful, but it still Romans 1 is wonderful, but it still Romans 1 is wonderful, but it still could be horrible to sing. Do you know could be horrible to sing. Do you know could be horrible to sing. Do you know what I mean? It's got to be beautiful to what I mean? It's got to be beautiful to what I mean? It's got to be beautiful to sing. And then and then I think the sing. And then and then I think the sing. And then and then I think the melodies have to be just irresistible. melodies have to be just irresistible. melodies have to be just irresistible. You have to be dying to sing them. a a You have to be dying to sing them. a a You have to be dying to sing them. a a great song, a classic song. I guarantee great song, a classic song. I guarantee great song, a classic song. I guarantee you 90% of the classic songs and hymns, you 90% of the classic songs and hymns, you 90% of the classic songs and hymns, you know, you will remember the first you know, you will remember the first you know, you will remember the first place you were when you heard them, even place you were when you heard them, even place you were when you heard them, even if it was 30, 40 years ago. Y because if it was 30, 40 years ago. Y because if it was 30, 40 years ago. Y because the great songs do that to you.

the great songs do that to you. the great songs do that to you. They're just they're just in a different They're just they're just in a different They're just they're just in a different league. And uh that's why most of the league. And uh that's why most of the league. And uh that's why most of the time I recommend on an ordinary time I recommend on an ordinary time I recommend on an ordinary run-of-the-mill service, obviously run-of-the-mill service, obviously run-of-the-mill service, obviously they're wanting us to introduce new they're wanting us to introduce new they're wanting us to introduce new songs here, which is a good thing to do songs here, which is a good thing to do songs here, which is a good thing to do as well, but on a run-of-the-mill as well, but on a run-of-the-mill as well, but on a run-of-the-mill Sunday, I I will choose more traditional Sunday, I I will choose more traditional Sunday, I I will choose more traditional hymns than than of my hymns because hymns than than of my hymns because hymns than than of my hymns because they're just better, you know? They just they're just better, you know? They just they're just better, you know? They just they're just better. I remember the they're just better. I remember the they're just better. I remember the first Well, at the same conference, first Well, at the same conference, first Well, at the same conference, you're directing orchestra and choir and you're directing orchestra and choir and you're directing orchestra and choir and singing some of the great old hymns as singing some of the great old hymns as singing some of the great old hymns as well as some of the Getty hymns and well as some of the Getty hymns and well as some of the Getty hymns and other hymns. Uh so you you've done a other hymns. Uh so you you've done a other hymns. Uh so you you've done a marvelous job of of blending uh marvelous job of of blending uh marvelous job of of blending uh yesterday and today but I think that yesterday and today but I think that yesterday and today but I think that framework is helpful for us. Are these framework is helpful for us. Are these framework is helpful for us. Are these songs just just beautiful and glorious songs just just beautiful and glorious songs just just beautiful and glorious to sing? Are they are we excited about to sing? Are they are we excited about to sing? Are they are we excited about Sunday because we're singing this? Okay Sunday because we're singing this? Okay Sunday because we're singing this? Okay guys, we got just a few minutes left. guys, we got just a few minutes left. guys, we got just a few minutes left. Here's the last question. Uh Lig Here's the last question. Uh Lig Here's the last question. Uh Lig starting with you. What are the keys to starting with you. What are the keys to starting with you. What are the keys to framing up a worshipful liturgy, an framing up a worshipful liturgy, an framing up a worshipful liturgy, an order of order of order of service service service that worships the Lord and enables the that worships the Lord and enables the that worships the Lord and enables the people together to come and praise it?

people together to come and praise it? people together to come and praise it? What are the keys to liturgy What are the keys to liturgy What are the keys to liturgy development? development? development? I I think you start with the principles I I think you start with the principles I I think you start with the principles of what are the Bibled directed what is of what are the Bibled directed what is of what are the Bibled directed what is the Bible directed content for public the Bible directed content for public the Bible directed content for public worship. And one motto is read the worship. And one motto is read the worship. And one motto is read the Bible, preach the Bible, pray the Bible, Bible, preach the Bible, pray the Bible, Bible, preach the Bible, pray the Bible, sing the Bible, see the Bible, because sing the Bible, see the Bible, because sing the Bible, see the Bible, because the baptism and the Lord's supper are the baptism and the Lord's supper are the baptism and the Lord's supper are visible words, Augustine said. So visible words, Augustine said. So visible words, Augustine said. So they're they're actually visually they're they're actually visually they're they're actually visually depicting to you a promise of God. So depicting to you a promise of God. So depicting to you a promise of God. So what you're wanting to do is fill up what you're wanting to do is fill up what you're wanting to do is fill up your public worship with Bible. I want I your public worship with Bible. I want I your public worship with Bible. I want I want people to go out. Man, there was a want people to go out. Man, there was a want people to go out. Man, there was a lot of Bible in that service. Everywhere lot of Bible in that service. Everywhere lot of Bible in that service. Everywhere I turned was Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible. I turned was Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible. I turned was Bible, Bible, Bible, Bible. Now, it may have been beautifully, you Now, it may have been beautifully, you Now, it may have been beautifully, you know, it may been beautifully know, it may been beautifully know, it may been beautifully articulated in a Wesley hymn, but man, articulated in a Wesley hymn, but man, articulated in a Wesley hymn, but man, that theology was rich there. And I that theology was rich there. And I that theology was rich there. And I could tell that truth was biblical. The could tell that truth was biblical. The could tell that truth was biblical. The prayers were biblical. The uh the the prayers were biblical. The uh the the prayers were biblical. The uh the the sermon was a faithful exposition. So, I sermon was a faithful exposition. So, I sermon was a faithful exposition. So, I want to think, how am I going to do all want to think, how am I going to do all want to think, how am I going to do all of those things? I think the second of those things? I think the second of those things? I think the second principle is the truth of the gospel principle is the truth of the gospel principle is the truth of the gospel needs to control a Protestant service of needs to control a Protestant service of needs to control a Protestant service of worship. Nobody should walk out of a worship. Nobody should walk out of a worship. Nobody should walk out of a Protestant service of worship thinking Protestant service of worship thinking Protestant service of worship thinking that there is any way to commune with that there is any way to commune with that there is any way to commune with God apart from faith in Jesus Christ. So God apart from faith in Jesus Christ. So God apart from faith in Jesus Christ. So the liturgy should shout that to you the liturgy should shout that to you the liturgy should shout that to you from beginning to end that Christ is the from beginning to end that Christ is the from beginning to end that Christ is the only mediator between God and his people only mediator between God and his people only mediator between God and his people and he is the only way to God. And so and he is the only way to God. And so and he is the only way to God. And so that's why you confess sins, you know,

that's why you confess sins, you know, that's why you confess sins, you know, when when you know Matt was talking when when you know Matt was talking when when you know Matt was talking about adoration at the beginning of the about adoration at the beginning of the about adoration at the beginning of the service, but you're also confessing sin service, but you're also confessing sin service, but you're also confessing sin because Lord, if you should judge, none because Lord, if you should judge, none because Lord, if you should judge, none of us would stand. But there is a man of us would stand. But there is a man of us would stand. But there is a man who has stood in our place and he has who has stood in our place and he has who has stood in our place and he has taken on our sins. And because he did taken on our sins. And because he did taken on our sins. And because he did that, we can come into your presence now that, we can come into your presence now that, we can come into your presence now as bloodbought sinners who have now been as bloodbought sinners who have now been as bloodbought sinners who have now been changed into saints to give you praise. changed into saints to give you praise. changed into saints to give you praise. And then you can sing, "And can it be?" And then you can sing, "And can it be?" And then you can sing, "And can it be?" And then you can sing and can it be and And then you can sing and can it be and And then you can sing and can it be and so you want a gospel logic to the so you want a gospel logic to the so you want a gospel logic to the service as well, Matt. service as well, Matt. service as well, Matt. I completely I completely I completely agree. I completely agree. I I think agree. I completely agree. I I think agree. I completely agree. I I think just to have some sort of order. Let me just to have some sort of order. Let me just to have some sort of order. Let me just in the early days of me leading just in the early days of me leading just in the early days of me leading church music, um I I thought, you know, church music, um I I thought, you know, church music, um I I thought, you know, well, how service goes, it's fast songs well, how service goes, it's fast songs well, how service goes, it's fast songs to slow songs into the sermon and then to slow songs into the sermon and then to slow songs into the sermon and then you sing a really slow song at the end. you sing a really slow song at the end. you sing a really slow song at the end. And And And uh maybe none of you did that, but that uh maybe none of you did that, but that uh maybe none of you did that, but that was how I saw church. But um thinking was how I saw church. But um thinking was how I saw church. But um thinking through it through the lens of the through it through the lens of the through it through the lens of the gospel, seeing how our liturgy gospel, seeing how our liturgy gospel, seeing how our liturgy communicates who God is, man's desperate communicates who God is, man's desperate communicates who God is, man's desperate need to be made right with him, the need to be made right with him, the need to be made right with him, the glory and truth and beauty of Christ, glory and truth and beauty of Christ, glory and truth and beauty of Christ, and then now how to live in response to and then now how to live in response to and then now how to live in response to who he is. So I think that God man who he is. So I think that God man who he is. So I think that God man Christ response is helpful. I think uh Christ response is helpful. I think uh Christ response is helpful. I think uh Robert Raburn's um arc of liturgy is is Robert Raburn's um arc of liturgy is is Robert Raburn's um arc of liturgy is is very helpful. Uh we follow something very helpful. Uh we follow something very helpful. Uh we follow something just like that or very similar to it. Is just like that or very similar to it. Is just like that or very similar to it. Is his book still in print? It is it is his book still in print? It is it is his book still in print? It is it is still in print. It's very expensive. You

still in print. It's very expensive. You still in print. It's very expensive. You can get it uh I think on Amazon. Yeah, I can get it uh I think on Amazon. Yeah, I can get it uh I think on Amazon. Yeah, I didn't know it was still in print, but didn't know it was still in print, but didn't know it was still in print, but that's that's good to hear. I I I that's that's good to hear. I I I that's that's good to hear. I I I actually just looked it up the other day actually just looked it up the other day actually just looked it up the other day and uh it's probably, you know, printed and uh it's probably, you know, printed and uh it's probably, you know, printed in a back room somewhere, someone's in a back room somewhere, someone's in a back room somewhere, someone's living room and you can buy. Yeah. Who living room and you can buy. Yeah. Who living room and you can buy. Yeah. Who cares? Yeah. cares? Yeah. cares? Yeah. Um I I I do want for our services to Um I I I do want for our services to Um I I I do want for our services to rehearse and renew people in the gospel rehearse and renew people in the gospel rehearse and renew people in the gospel of Jesus to exalt Christ and everything of Jesus to exalt Christ and everything of Jesus to exalt Christ and everything to make sure that that is the reason to make sure that that is the reason to make sure that that is the reason we've gathered not to exalt man but for we've gathered not to exalt man but for we've gathered not to exalt man but for Christ to be exalted and for us to leave Christ to be exalted and for us to leave Christ to be exalted and for us to leave refreshed and renewed having communed refreshed and renewed having communed refreshed and renewed having communed with him and one another. with him and one another. with him and one another. Amen. Amen. Amen. Keith oh let me ask you this. Uh he's Keith oh let me ask you this. Uh he's Keith oh let me ask you this. Uh he's asking me what the question is again. I asking me what the question is again. I asking me what the question is again. I don't know. He's singing about baseball don't know. He's singing about baseball don't know. He's singing about baseball or something. I don't know what it is. U or something. I don't know what it is. U or something. I don't know what it is. U cricket. Yeah, cricket. Uh so tell us cricket. Yeah, cricket. Uh so tell us cricket. Yeah, cricket. Uh so tell us why you're publishing the sing himnil. I why you're publishing the sing himnil. I why you're publishing the sing himnil. I think it's along these lines of music think it's along these lines of music think it's along these lines of music and liturgy. Well, we we as a group are and liturgy. Well, we we as a group are and liturgy. Well, we we as a group are publishing the sing himnil. Cross are publishing the sing himnil. Cross are publishing the sing himnil. Cross are publishing the sing himnil. Uh our publishing the sing himnil. Uh our publishing the sing himnil. Uh our organization are a partner in that.

organization are a partner in that. organization are a partner in that. Sorry, our organization are a partner in Sorry, our organization are a partner in Sorry, our organization are a partner in that. And it is really to to provide one that. And it is really to to provide one that. And it is really to to provide one option for people to help curate what option for people to help curate what option for people to help curate what they sing. The history of the Christian they sing. The history of the Christian they sing. The history of the Christian church when it has been a singing people church when it has been a singing people church when it has been a singing people which is probably more of history which is probably more of history which is probably more of history overall has been what we've sung has overall has been what we've sung has overall has been what we've sung has always been curated through one one of always been curated through one one of always been curated through one one of four main forms of curation. The most four main forms of curation. The most four main forms of curation. The most common has been called the psalms where common has been called the psalms where common has been called the psalms where we sing the psalms which are just we sing the psalms which are just we sing the psalms which are just singing scripture singing what Jesus singing scripture singing what Jesus singing scripture singing what Jesus said. The second one is lit liturgy said. The second one is lit liturgy said. The second one is lit liturgy which is again mostly psalms and which is again mostly psalms and which is again mostly psalms and scripture but where you have liturgies scripture but where you have liturgies scripture but where you have liturgies and you respond to um which have mostly and you respond to um which have mostly and you respond to um which have mostly been good um throughout history. The been good um throughout history. The been good um throughout history. The third option is called localized singing third option is called localized singing third option is called localized singing which has also been very popular in which has also been very popular in which has also been very popular in history. In other words, if you lived if history. In other words, if you lived if history. In other words, if you lived if you lived in a town most of history you you lived in a town most of history you you lived in a town most of history you didn't have communication with people in didn't have communication with people in didn't have communication with people in other towns and so the leaders of your other towns and so the leaders of your other towns and so the leaders of your group would have told you what the songs group would have told you what the songs group would have told you what the songs were. And the fourth one is post the were. And the fourth one is post the were. And the fourth one is post the Goodutenberg printing press was the Goodutenberg printing press was the Goodutenberg printing press was the himynel. Um so you your your the himynel. Um so you your your the himynel. Um so you your your the leadership of your groups provided songs leadership of your groups provided songs leadership of your groups provided songs that helped you sing the Bible sing a that helped you sing the Bible sing a that helped you sing the Bible sing a big picture of the God of the Bible and big picture of the God of the Bible and big picture of the God of the Bible and then songs that sort of the like the then songs that sort of the like the then songs that sort of the like the Psalms do big picture of God and then Psalms do big picture of God and then Psalms do big picture of God and then the whole arc of humanity so that we can the whole arc of humanity so that we can the whole arc of humanity so that we can be mad and angry and depressed and be mad and angry and depressed and be mad and angry and depressed and lament and rejoice and dance and lament and rejoice and dance and lament and rejoice and dance and celebrate like all our Baptist friends celebrate like all our Baptist friends celebrate like all our Baptist friends do. And uh so the and so we we now live do. And uh so the and so we we now live do. And uh so the and so we we now live we're now in a generation that that the we're now in a generation that that the we're now in a generation that that the the worship leader in your church, you the worship leader in your church, you the worship leader in your church, you know, is likely on a h on a le's likely

know, is likely on a h on a le's likely know, is likely on a h on a le's likely on a Tuesday and Wednesday going to on a Tuesday and Wednesday going to on a Tuesday and Wednesday going to something like the CCLI website. That's something like the CCLI website. That's something like the CCLI website. That's not wrong, but it's over 300,000 songs not wrong, but it's over 300,000 songs not wrong, but it's over 300,000 songs that you have to choose from over that you have to choose from over that you have to choose from over 300,000. And so that ultimately we feel 300,000. And so that ultimately we feel 300,000. And so that ultimately we feel as a group and crossway as well. I think as a group and crossway as well. I think as a group and crossway as well. I think I can speak in behalf of both is is is I can speak in behalf of both is is is I can speak in behalf of both is is is is dangerous for the future of the is dangerous for the future of the is dangerous for the future of the Christian for of the Christian church Christian for of the Christian church Christian for of the Christian church dangerous for the Christian family dangerous for the Christian family dangerous for the Christian family dangerous for the Christian individual. dangerous for the Christian individual. dangerous for the Christian individual. We want to try and help people do that. We want to try and help people do that. We want to try and help people do that. So it's really a collection of hymns So it's really a collection of hymns So it's really a collection of hymns hymns and liturgies. When I say hymns and liturgies. When I say hymns and liturgies. When I say liturgies I mean uh Bible passages or liturgies I mean uh Bible passages or liturgies I mean uh Bible passages or great prayers from all 20 centuries of great prayers from all 20 centuries of great prayers from all 20 centuries of Christian history. And it goes through Christian history. And it goes through Christian history. And it goes through basically the liturgy of the church basically the liturgy of the church basically the liturgy of the church service. Then it goes through the service. Then it goes through the service. Then it goes through the liturgy of the Christian life from hymns liturgy of the Christian life from hymns liturgy of the Christian life from hymns from children to hymns from suffering from children to hymns from suffering from children to hymns from suffering and death. Then finally the liturgy of and death. Then finally the liturgy of and death. Then finally the liturgy of Christ's life which is usually known as Christ's life which is usually known as Christ's life which is usually known as the church this year starting with the church this year starting with the church this year starting with Advent and going through that. So it's a Advent and going through that. So it's a Advent and going through that. So it's a it's a resource really really really for it's a resource really really really for it's a resource really really really for three different places. It's a resource three different places. It's a resource three different places. It's a resource for every Christian leader to have for every Christian leader to have for every Christian leader to have alongside their study Bible and their alongside their study Bible and their alongside their study Bible and their Fox's book of martyrs that that can be Fox's book of martyrs that that can be Fox's book of martyrs that that can be their reference book for thing for their reference book for thing for their reference book for thing for reference book for if you're being reference book for if you're being reference book for if you're being called to do any kind of service.

called to do any kind of service. called to do any kind of service. Secondly, it's for families to use and Secondly, it's for families to use and Secondly, it's for families to use and learn. And then thirdly, it's for learn. And then thirdly, it's for learn. And then thirdly, it's for churches who would wish to have himnels churches who would wish to have himnels churches who would wish to have himnels available for everybody or as a available for everybody or as a available for everybody or as a reference in their churches to to just reference in their churches to to just reference in their churches to to just have that. So, well, we thank you and have that. So, well, we thank you and have that. So, well, we thank you and all your buddies for putting that all your buddies for putting that all your buddies for putting that together for us and together for us and together for us and crossway is actually just going to print crossway is actually just going to print crossway is actually just going to print this afternoon, I think. So, Oh, wow. this afternoon, I think. So, Oh, wow. this afternoon, I think. So, Oh, wow. And that'll be available in September, And that'll be available in September, And that'll be available in September, maybe. Yeah. Okay. Uh, Lian, I'm going maybe. Yeah. Okay. Uh, Lian, I'm going maybe. Yeah. Okay. Uh, Lian, I'm going to ask you to close us in prayer, but to ask you to close us in prayer, but to ask you to close us in prayer, but before we do that, let's thank our before we do that, let's thank our before we do that, let's thank our panelists for this great time together. pray. Heavenly Father, we thank pray. Heavenly Father, we thank you that by the work of Jesus Christ and you that by the work of Jesus Christ and you that by the work of Jesus Christ and through the regenerating power of the through the regenerating power of the through the regenerating power of the Holy Spirit, you have put a song in our Holy Spirit, you have put a song in our Holy Spirit, you have put a song in our hearts to praise to the living God and hearts to praise to the living God and hearts to praise to the living God and that you are worthy of that praise. that you are worthy of that praise. that you are worthy of that praise. We ask oh God that you would help us to We ask oh God that you would help us to We ask oh God that you would help us to worship you according to your word and worship you according to your word and worship you according to your word and to give unto you the glory due your to give unto you the glory due your to give unto you the glory due your name. We ask heavenly father that name. We ask heavenly father that name. We ask heavenly father that pastors who are here today would be pastors who are here today would be pastors who are here today would be encouraged by this conversation and encouraged by this conversation and encouraged by this conversation and would go back and serve their would go back and serve their would go back and serve their congregations with a renewed energy and congregations with a renewed energy and congregations with a renewed energy and zeal for the whole public worship of the zeal for the whole public worship of the zeal for the whole public worship of the people of God. Not just the preaching people of God. Not just the preaching people of God. Not just the preaching but the totality of what the people of but the totality of what the people of but the totality of what the people of God do when they are together. We pray

God do when they are together. We pray God do when they are together. We pray for a reformation of worship in our for a reformation of worship in our for a reformation of worship in our time. We we have seen a beautiful time. We we have seen a beautiful time. We we have seen a beautiful recovery of the gospel and a beautiful recovery of the gospel and a beautiful recovery of the gospel and a beautiful recovery of the of the high view of God recovery of the of the high view of God recovery of the of the high view of God that scripture gives us and a beautiful that scripture gives us and a beautiful that scripture gives us and a beautiful recovery of the theology of scripture. recovery of the theology of scripture. recovery of the theology of scripture. give us a recovery of the rich Christian give us a recovery of the rich Christian give us a recovery of the rich Christian theology of worship in our time in our theology of worship in our time in our theology of worship in our time in our churches and lead lead through this lead churches and lead lead through this lead churches and lead lead through this lead us to greater comfort greater energy us to greater comfort greater energy us to greater comfort greater energy greater zeal for your glory and get all greater zeal for your glory and get all greater zeal for your glory and get all the glory for yourself. We pray it in the glory for yourself. We pray it in the glory for yourself. We pray it in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Jesus name. Amen. Amen. [Music]