Why Pascal’s Wager Still Pays Off (with Graham Tomlin) [Gospelbound Ep. 190]

First of all, realize it's not your First of all, realize it's not your reason that's that's that's [music] reason that's that's that's [music] reason that's that's that's [music] resisting God. It's something else. It's resisting God. It's something else. It's resisting God. It's something else. It's your heart. If you and but if you want your heart. If you and but if you want your heart. If you and but if you want to put yourself in the position where to put yourself in the position where to put yourself in the position where God might [music] touch you by his God might [music] touch you by his God might [music] touch you by his grace, well, go into each day acting as grace, well, go into each day acting as grace, well, go into each day acting as if it's true, even before you're sure if it's true, even before you're sure if it's true, even before you're sure it's true. You know, read the Bible as it's true. You know, read the Bible as it's true. You know, read the Bible as if it really is God's word speaking to if it really is God's word speaking to if it really is God's word speaking to you. Treat every person you meet that you. Treat every person you meet that you. Treat every person you meet that day [music] as if they are an image of day [music] as if they are an image of day [music] as if they are an image of God given to you in that moment to be God given to you in that moment to be God given to you in that moment to be treated with reverence and with love. Uh treated with reverence and with love. Uh treated with reverence and with love. Uh pray to God [music] as if he is really pray to God [music] as if he is really pray to God [music] as if he is really there. Go to church as if it's the place there. Go to church as if it's the place there. Go to church as if it's the place where you will meet with the people of where you will meet with the people of where you will meet with the people of God and so on. [music] And in time, God and so on. [music] And in time, God and so on. [music] And in time, Pascal thinks it will dawn upon you that Pascal thinks it will dawn upon you that Pascal thinks it will dawn upon you that this really is true and it will touch this really is true and it will touch this really is true and it will touch your heart as well. So that I think is your heart as well. So that I think is your heart as well. So that I think is how the the wager works. [music] The patron saint of cultural apologetics The patron saint of cultural apologetics is Augustine of Hippo, author most is Augustine of Hippo, author most is Augustine of Hippo, author most famously of City of God and Confessions. famously of City of God and Confessions. famously of City of God and Confessions. Now, second place is up for debate, but Now, second place is up for debate, but Now, second place is up for debate, but you'll get a lot of votes for a 17th you'll get a lot of votes for a 17th you'll get a lot of votes for a 17th century disciple of Augustine, the century disciple of Augustine, the century disciple of Augustine, the Frenchman, Bla1 Pascal. Graham Tomlin Frenchman, Bla1 Pascal. Graham Tomlin Frenchman, Bla1 Pascal. Graham Tomlin describes Pascal as the man who made the describes Pascal as the man who made the describes Pascal as the man who made the modern world in a new biography. Tomlin modern world in a new biography. Tomlin modern world in a new biography. Tomlin is the director of the Center for is the director of the Center for is the director of the Center for Cultural Witness in Oxford, England. He Cultural Witness in Oxford, England. He Cultural Witness in Oxford, England. He writes of Pascal that it is hard to writes of Pascal that it is hard to writes of Pascal that it is hard to think of anyone who has impacted so many think of anyone who has impacted so many think of anyone who has impacted so many fields of human endeavor in such a short fields of human endeavor in such a short fields of human endeavor in such a short time. All right, so let's just talk time. All right, so let's just talk time. All right, so let's just talk about some of those accomplishments.

about some of those accomplishments. about some of those accomplishments. Here's a taste from Tomlin about Here's a taste from Tomlin about Here's a taste from Tomlin about Pascal's accomplishments. Pascal Pascal's accomplishments. Pascal Pascal's accomplishments. Pascal basically invented probability theory, basically invented probability theory, basically invented probability theory, proved the existence of the vacuum, laid proved the existence of the vacuum, laid proved the existence of the vacuum, laid the foundations of integral calculus, the foundations of integral calculus, the foundations of integral calculus, conducted the first modern scientific conducted the first modern scientific conducted the first modern scientific experiment, developed theory that made experiment, developed theory that made experiment, developed theory that made possible the hydraulic press, possible the hydraulic press, possible the hydraulic press, demonstrated that air has weight, demonstrated that air has weight, demonstrated that air has weight, designed and built the first mechanical designed and built the first mechanical designed and built the first mechanical calculating machine, which led to what calculating machine, which led to what calculating machine, which led to what we know as the computer, set the trend we know as the computer, set the trend we know as the computer, set the trend of wearing wristwatches, and built the of wearing wristwatches, and built the of wearing wristwatches, and built the first public urban transportation system first public urban transportation system first public urban transportation system in Europe. That's all. [laughter] in Europe. That's all. [laughter] in Europe. That's all. [laughter] And did I already mention he was one of And did I already mention he was one of And did I already mention he was one of the most effective and enduring cultural the most effective and enduring cultural the most effective and enduring cultural apologists of all time, perhaps second apologists of all time, perhaps second apologists of all time, perhaps second only to Augustine? Tomlin writes, "His only to Augustine? Tomlin writes, "His only to Augustine? Tomlin writes, "His was a Christianity founded in a profound was a Christianity founded in a profound was a Christianity founded in a profound experience of God, an intense devotional experience of God, an intense devotional experience of God, an intense devotional life, and a form of faith that offered a life, and a form of faith that offered a life, and a form of faith that offered a radical alternative to the comfortable radical alternative to the comfortable radical alternative to the comfortable assimilation to culture that the church assimilation to culture that the church assimilation to culture that the church of his day often seemed to promote." So, of his day often seemed to promote." So, of his day often seemed to promote." So, let's talk to Graham Talman about this let's talk to Graham Talman about this let's talk to Graham Talman about this remarkable man who lamented man's remarkable man who lamented man's remarkable man who lamented man's inability to sit quietly by himself who inability to sit quietly by himself who inability to sit quietly by himself who observed, "The heart has its reasons, of observed, "The heart has its reasons, of observed, "The heart has its reasons, of which reason knows nothing." Just a which reason knows nothing." Just a which reason knows nothing." Just a couple of famous uh Pascal quotes there.

couple of famous uh Pascal quotes there. couple of famous uh Pascal quotes there. Graham, thanks for joining me on Gospel Graham, thanks for joining me on Gospel Graham, thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. Very good to be with you, Colin. Bound. Very good to be with you, Colin. Bound. Very good to be with you, Colin. Yeah, looking forward to the Yeah, looking forward to the Yeah, looking forward to the conversation. Which of Pascal's conversation. Which of Pascal's conversation. Which of Pascal's inventions or discoveries impresses you inventions or discoveries impresses you inventions or discoveries impresses you most? Yeah, it's a good question, isn't most? Yeah, it's a good question, isn't most? Yeah, it's a good question, isn't it? I mean I suppose the one that that it? I mean I suppose the one that that it? I mean I suppose the one that that probably impacts you most or is this the probably impacts you most or is this the probably impacts you most or is this the most surprising is his invention of most surprising is his invention of most surprising is his invention of buses because you know we we all go on buses because you know we we all go on buses because you know we we all go on buses from time to time you know we all buses from time to time you know we all buses from time to time you know we all kind of access Surban transportation kind of access Surban transportation kind of access Surban transportation systems but it's a it's a remarkable systems but it's a it's a remarkable systems but it's a it's a remarkable thing that he you know here's someone thing that he you know here's someone thing that he you know here's someone who's not known for for that he's known who's not known for for that he's known who's not known for for that he's known for his pon he's known for his for his pon he's known for his for his pon he's known for his philosophy he's known for um you know philosophy he's known for um you know philosophy he's known for um you know some of his sort of scientific some of his sort of scientific some of his sort of scientific experimentation but this very practical experimentation but this very practical experimentation but this very practical thing of working out you know towards thing of working out you know towards thing of working out you know towards the end of toward you know in the first the end of toward you know in the first the end of toward you know in the first half of the 17th century Paris doubled half of the 17th century Paris doubled half of the 17th century Paris doubled in size which was fine for the rich in size which was fine for the rich in size which was fine for the rich because they could get around in their because they could get around in their because they could get around in their carriages. For the poor it was a real carriages. For the poor it was a real carriages. For the poor it was a real problem. And um one of the things that problem. And um one of the things that problem. And um one of the things that Pascal gained towards the end of his Pascal gained towards the end of his Pascal gained towards the end of his life was a was a a deep devotion to the life was a was a a deep devotion to the life was a was a a deep devotion to the poor. And one of the things he wanted to poor. And one of the things he wanted to poor. And one of the things he wanted to try and do is to to sort out a practical try and do is to to sort out a practical try and do is to to sort out a practical solution to the difficulties of poor solution to the difficulties of poor solution to the difficulties of poor people getting around Paris to visit people getting around Paris to visit people getting around Paris to visit family or to um to travel to work. can family or to um to travel to work. can family or to um to travel to work. can say he suddenly had this idea, you know, say he suddenly had this idea, you know, say he suddenly had this idea, you know, he's watching one day carriages going he's watching one day carriages going he's watching one day carriages going past the streets in Paris. Okay, what if past the streets in Paris. Okay, what if past the streets in Paris. Okay, what if we what if we raised some money? We kind we what if we raised some money? We kind we what if we raised some money? We kind of um bought up a number of carriages of um bought up a number of carriages of um bought up a number of carriages and they could go from point A to point and they could go from point A to point and they could go from point A to point B and they could stop at various places B and they could stop at various places B and they could stop at various places on the on the way and people without on the on the way and people without on the on the way and people without much money could pay a very small amount much money could pay a very small amount much money could pay a very small amount soul, you know, 5 cents was the was the soul, you know, 5 cents was the was the soul, you know, 5 cents was the was the amount he he um he designated. That's amount he he um he designated. That's amount he he um he designated. That's why it's called the kos sak soul. The

why it's called the kos sak soul. The why it's called the kos sak soul. The the carriage is the 5-cent carriage. And the carriage is the 5-cent carriage. And the carriage is the 5-cent carriage. And um but you know people could get on and um but you know people could get on and um but you know people could get on and get off at different points and um they get off at different points and um they get off at different points and um they could travel across the city for very could travel across the city for very could travel across the city for very little little price. I mean terally little little price. I mean terally little little price. I mean terally simple idea but he not only had the idea simple idea but he not only had the idea simple idea but he not only had the idea he had the kind of capacity to tap up he had the kind of capacity to tap up he had the kind of capacity to tap up his wealthy friends to gain the capital his wealthy friends to gain the capital his wealthy friends to gain the capital to get this thing off the ground and to get this thing off the ground and to get this thing off the ground and designing five routes across Paris and designing five routes across Paris and designing five routes across Paris and he he he got it going and um that says a he he he got it going and um that says a he he he got it going and um that says a lot about Pascal's sort of practical lot about Pascal's sort of practical lot about Pascal's sort of practical ability his ingenuity for solving ability his ingenuity for solving ability his ingenuity for solving problems. So I think that's the one that problems. So I think that's the one that problems. So I think that's the one that kind of interests me most and I mean kind of interests me most and I mean kind of interests me most and I mean there's lots of the others that are there's lots of the others that are there's lots of the others that are particularly in his his calculating particularly in his his calculating particularly in his his calculating machine is extraordinary thing when if machine is extraordinary thing when if machine is extraordinary thing when if you if you've seen one of these things you if you've seen one of these things you if you've seen one of these things it's a beautiful piece of engineering um it's a beautiful piece of engineering um it's a beautiful piece of engineering um and again was a great precursor of you and again was a great precursor of you and again was a great precursor of you know when the story of the computer is know when the story of the computer is know when the story of the computer is told Pascal's the Pascalene is often told Pascal's the Pascalene is often told Pascal's the Pascalene is often mentioned in that so that's like a mentioned in that so that's like a mentioned in that so that's like a remarkable invention so yeah I guess remarkable invention so yeah I guess remarkable invention so yeah I guess those are the two I'd pick out oh man those are the two I'd pick out oh man those are the two I'd pick out oh man can you see one of those calculating can you see one of those calculating can you see one of those calculating machines somewhere are they in a museum machines somewhere are they in a museum machines somewhere are they in a museum somewhere somewhere somewhere >> yeah there are various ones Um there >> yeah there are various ones Um there >> yeah there are various ones Um there about um I think about 25 of them still about um I think about 25 of them still about um I think about 25 of them still in existence. He was it was it was a it in existence. He was it was it was a it in existence. He was it was it was a it wasn't a great commercial success wasn't a great commercial success wasn't a great commercial success because they were too expensive to because they were too expensive to because they were too expensive to build. Um he built various versions of build. Um he built various versions of build. Um he built various versions of them. Some are smaller, some of them are them. Some are smaller, some of them are them. Some are smaller, some of them are larger. Um I've personally seen a couple larger. Um I've personally seen a couple larger. Um I've personally seen a couple of them. There's a couple of them in in of them. There's a couple of them in in of them. There's a couple of them in in Claremore, the the city where Pascal was Claremore, the the city where Pascal was Claremore, the the city where Pascal was born. There's a museum there which has a born. There's a museum there which has a born. There's a museum there which has a couple of um of copies of it. There's couple of um of copies of it. There's couple of um of copies of it. There's one or two in Paris. IBM own one of one or two in Paris. IBM own one of one or two in Paris. IBM own one of them. Um and so they're scattered around them. Um and so they're scattered around them. Um and so they're scattered around the world, you know, the um the

the world, you know, the um the the world, you know, the um the Pascaline themselves. And so yeah, Pascaline themselves. And so yeah, Pascaline themselves. And so yeah, there's a limited number. As I say, he there's a limited number. As I say, he there's a limited number. As I say, he never managed to sell enough of them never managed to sell enough of them never managed to sell enough of them because they were too expensive, but you because they were too expensive, but you because they were too expensive, but you can still find them if you know where to can still find them if you know where to can still find them if you know where to look. look. look. >> Where do we see most clearly see >> Where do we see most clearly see >> Where do we see most clearly see Augustine's influence on on Pascal? Augustine's influence on on Pascal? Augustine's influence on on Pascal? >> Yeah, you see Augustine kind of all over >> Yeah, you see Augustine kind of all over >> Yeah, you see Augustine kind of all over the place with Pascal. Um you can see it the place with Pascal. Um you can see it the place with Pascal. Um you can see it in his particular association with the in his particular association with the in his particular association with the Jansenists. The Janssonists were this Jansenists. The Janssonists were this Jansenists. The Janssonists were this group in 17th century France group in 17th century France group in 17th century France um which was kind of kind of quite an um which was kind of kind of quite an um which was kind of kind of quite an austere form of Catholic devotion um but austere form of Catholic devotion um but austere form of Catholic devotion um but was a very deeply Augustinian influenced was a very deeply Augustinian influenced was a very deeply Augustinian influenced grouping. They were they were called grouping. They were they were called grouping. They were they were called Jansenists because uh they were they Jansenists because uh they were they Jansenists because uh they were they kind of read a very long brother kind of read a very long brother kind of read a very long brother slightly dull book by Michael Cornelius slightly dull book by Michael Cornelius slightly dull book by Michael Cornelius Jansen which was was an interpretation Jansen which was was an interpretation Jansen which was was an interpretation of Augustine a particularly radical of Augustine a particularly radical of Augustine a particularly radical interpretation of Augustine and the interpretation of Augustine and the interpretation of Augustine and the Jansenist took on this interpretation Jansenist took on this interpretation Jansenist took on this interpretation and um you know not many people actually and um you know not many people actually and um you know not many people actually read it because it was very long but read it because it was very long but read it because it was very long but Pascal knew of it and it was the Pascal knew of it and it was the Pascal knew of it and it was the inspiration for this form of devotion inspiration for this form of devotion inspiration for this form of devotion which Pascal was was associated with.

which Pascal was was associated with. which Pascal was was associated with. many of his friends were in the many of his friends were in the many of his friends were in the movement. And so you see it there. You movement. And so you see it there. You movement. And so you see it there. You see it also in his his um his emphasis see it also in his his um his emphasis see it also in his his um his emphasis on desire and fallenness. on desire and fallenness. on desire and fallenness. This sense that our minds are clouded by This sense that our minds are clouded by This sense that our minds are clouded by our desires that we do not we no longer our desires that we do not we no longer our desires that we do not we no longer think straight um in the way that we think straight um in the way that we think straight um in the way that we were intended to in the first in the were intended to in the first in the were intended to in the first in the beginning. Augustine obviously teaches beginning. Augustine obviously teaches beginning. Augustine obviously teaches that that and and Pascal picks up this that that and and Pascal picks up this that that and and Pascal picks up this idea that it that in our original state idea that it that in our original state idea that it that in our original state we were made to be able to think we were made to be able to think we were made to be able to think straight to desire what is good and to straight to desire what is good and to straight to desire what is good and to turn away from what is evil. Um but as a turn away from what is evil. Um but as a turn away from what is evil. Um but as a result of the fall our desires have result of the fall our desires have result of the fall our desires have become twisted and they no longer become twisted and they no longer become twisted and they no longer recognize what is good from what is recognize what is good from what is recognize what is good from what is harmful for us. And so we long for harmful for us. And so we long for harmful for us. And so we long for things that that actually are are deeply things that that actually are are deeply things that that actually are are deeply harmful for us. And therefore our our harmful for us. And therefore our our harmful for us. And therefore our our rationality is clouded. It's not quite rationality is clouded. It's not quite rationality is clouded. It's not quite as straightforward to give people as straightforward to give people as straightforward to give people reasons why they should believe in God reasons why they should believe in God reasons why they should believe in God or why Christianity is the truth and so or why Christianity is the truth and so or why Christianity is the truth and so on. It's not quite as straightforward as on. It's not quite as straightforward as on. It's not quite as straightforward as that. You have to address desire. And so that. You have to address desire. And so that. You have to address desire. And so I think that emphasis on desire is I think that emphasis on desire is I think that emphasis on desire is there. I think his emphasis upon the there. I think his emphasis upon the there. I think his emphasis upon the fallenness of human beings um that we fallenness of human beings um that we fallenness of human beings um that we are we are kind of broken um and that are we are kind of broken um and that are we are kind of broken um and that there is a deep emptiness inside us uh there is a deep emptiness inside us uh there is a deep emptiness inside us uh that is made to be filled by only an that is made to be filled by only an that is made to be filled by only an infinite object which is God himself.

infinite object which is God himself. infinite object which is God himself. there's, you know, Pascal is often there's, you know, Pascal is often there's, you know, Pascal is often associated with the the phrase the associated with the the phrase the associated with the the phrase the god-shaped gap. Now, he never uses that god-shaped gap. Now, he never uses that god-shaped gap. Now, he never uses that phrase, but you can find that idea in phrase, but you can find that idea in phrase, but you can find that idea in his his writings and in his apologetics, his his writings and in his apologetics, his his writings and in his apologetics, and it's um it's something really he and it's um it's something really he and it's um it's something really he gets from Augustine. So, Augustine, I gets from Augustine. So, Augustine, I gets from Augustine. So, Augustine, I think, is all over all over Pascal. He think, is all over all over Pascal. He think, is all over all over Pascal. He was probably Pascal's main theological was probably Pascal's main theological was probably Pascal's main theological influence throughout his life. Is it influence throughout his life. Is it influence throughout his life. Is it ironic that one of the men who most ironic that one of the men who most ironic that one of the men who most deployed the reason of the enlightenment deployed the reason of the enlightenment deployed the reason of the enlightenment was one who did not necessarily have a was one who did not necessarily have a was one who did not necessarily have a lofty view of reason especially when it lofty view of reason especially when it lofty view of reason especially when it came to religion. Yeah, there is a came to religion. Yeah, there is a came to religion. Yeah, there is a certain irony in that and Pascal's view certain irony in that and Pascal's view certain irony in that and Pascal's view of reason is is kind of interesting. You of reason is is kind of interesting. You of reason is is kind of interesting. You mentioned um Colin I think at the mentioned um Colin I think at the mentioned um Colin I think at the beginning one of his famous quotes is beginning one of his famous quotes is beginning one of his famous quotes is you know the heart has its reasons of you know the heart has its reasons of you know the heart has its reasons of which reason knows nothing. Um and that which reason knows nothing. Um and that which reason knows nothing. Um and that that's that's testament to his deeply that's that's testament to his deeply that's that's testament to his deeply Augustinian thing. is the heart and the Augustinian thing. is the heart and the Augustinian thing. is the heart and the heart for him is not just emotion. It's heart for him is not just emotion. It's heart for him is not just emotion. It's not kind of romantic feelings. It's it's not kind of romantic feelings. It's it's not kind of romantic feelings. It's it's a kind of deep instinct we have for what a kind of deep instinct we have for what a kind of deep instinct we have for what is true and what is what is false. The is true and what is what is false. The is true and what is what is false. The heart has its reasons which which can't heart has its reasons which which can't heart has its reasons which which can't be reasoned about. It's about desire.

be reasoned about. It's about desire. be reasoned about. It's about desire. It's about evoking a desire um for God. It's about evoking a desire um for God. It's about evoking a desire um for God. He thinks so that's why he thinks you He thinks so that's why he thinks you He thinks so that's why he thinks you have to address the heart first. That's have to address the heart first. That's have to address the heart first. That's not because he thinks that reason he's not because he thinks that reason he's not because he thinks that reason he's not he's not an irrationalist. He not he's not an irrationalist. He not he's not an irrationalist. He doesn't think that reason is useless for doesn't think that reason is useless for doesn't think that reason is useless for us. Um he does think that our reason is us. Um he does think that our reason is us. Um he does think that our reason is fallen. Uh but he makes a very clear fallen. Uh but he makes a very clear fallen. Uh but he makes a very clear distinction between the places where distinction between the places where distinction between the places where reason is really useful to us and where reason is really useful to us and where reason is really useful to us and where it's really not much use to us. So it is it's really not much use to us. So it is it's really not much use to us. So it is useful for us. He he thinks in the useful for us. He he thinks in the useful for us. He he thinks in the scientific um enterprise. So he has a a scientific um enterprise. So he has a a scientific um enterprise. So he has a a great belief in the power of great belief in the power of great belief in the power of experimental science. Um he's one of the experimental science. Um he's one of the experimental science. Um he's one of the pioneers of that. you know he inherits a pioneers of that. you know he inherits a pioneers of that. you know he inherits a form of science that he could from form of science that he could from form of science that he could from Daycart and others which was more about Daycart and others which was more about Daycart and others which was more about um well before Daycart and Pascal um well before Daycart and Pascal um well before Daycart and Pascal science was about you know bowing to science was about you know bowing to science was about you know bowing to authority if Aristotle or Galen said it authority if Aristotle or Galen said it authority if Aristotle or Galen said it it must be right um both Pascal and it must be right um both Pascal and it must be right um both Pascal and Daycart dispute that but Daycart Daycart dispute that but Daycart Daycart dispute that but Daycart approaches science on the basis of a approaches science on the basis of a approaches science on the basis of a priori reasoning and Pascal doesn't priori reasoning and Pascal doesn't priori reasoning and Pascal doesn't Pascal thinks actually no you do science Pascal thinks actually no you do science Pascal thinks actually no you do science by doing experiments you you you do an by doing experiments you you you do an by doing experiments you you you do an experiment and you repeat it and you try experiment and you repeat it and you try experiment and you repeat it and you try it over and over again and you record it over and over again and you record it over and over again and you record the results carefully and you work out the results carefully and you work out the results carefully and you work out the best um the best explanation for the the best um the best explanation for the the best um the best explanation for the results that you get. So he's a classic results that you get. So he's a classic results that you get. So he's a classic experimental scientist and he thinks experimental scientist and he thinks experimental scientist and he thinks that reason is really useful in that.

that reason is really useful in that. that reason is really useful in that. But what he doesn't think re reason is But what he doesn't think re reason is But what he doesn't think re reason is very useful for is in the knowledge of very useful for is in the knowledge of very useful for is in the knowledge of God because he thinks we have very God because he thinks we have very God because he thinks we have very strong powerful reasons for not wanting strong powerful reasons for not wanting strong powerful reasons for not wanting the truth about God to be known or at the truth about God to be known or at the truth about God to be known or at least for not sort of bowing to that least for not sort of bowing to that least for not sort of bowing to that truth as it were. And so he makes this truth as it were. And so he makes this truth as it were. And so he makes this very strong distinction between where very strong distinction between where very strong distinction between where reason is useful in things like reason is useful in things like reason is useful in things like geometry, in mathematics, in science, geometry, in mathematics, in science, geometry, in mathematics, in science, but not in not so much in theology. Um but not in not so much in theology. Um but not in not so much in theology. Um now again he doesn't doesn't disallow now again he doesn't doesn't disallow now again he doesn't doesn't disallow the use of reason in theology. He he the use of reason in theology. He he the use of reason in theology. He he comes up with reasoning um you know all comes up with reasoning um you know all comes up with reasoning um you know all kinds of you know good reasoned theology kinds of you know good reasoned theology kinds of you know good reasoned theology but he thinks that's not where it but he thinks that's not where it but he thinks that's not where it starts. It starts with the heart not starts. It starts with the heart not starts. It starts with the heart not with the reason. This is related then to with the reason. This is related then to with the reason. This is related then to his famous night of fire. his famous night of fire. his famous night of fire. >> Yeah. Tell us about it. >> Yeah. Tell us about it. >> Yeah. Tell us about it. >> Yeah. Well, he he um it's a key moment >> Yeah. Well, he he um it's a key moment >> Yeah. Well, he he um it's a key moment in Pascal's life. It happened in in Pascal's life. It happened in in Pascal's life. It happened in November 1654. He was born in 1623. November 1654. He was born in 1623. November 1654. He was born in 1623. Um and uh you kind of need to know the Um and uh you kind of need to know the Um and uh you kind of need to know the background to it. The background to it background to it. The background to it background to it. The background to it is that he was brought up as a fairly is that he was brought up as a fairly is that he was brought up as a fairly conventional Catholic family, not conventional Catholic family, not conventional Catholic family, not particularly devout. Uh the family then particularly devout. Uh the family then particularly devout. Uh the family then get influenced by this Jansenist get influenced by this Jansenist get influenced by this Jansenist movement and they become some of them, movement and they become some of them, movement and they become some of them, his sister in particular, his old his his sister in particular, his old his his sister in particular, his old his younger sister Jacqueline. um and to a younger sister Jacqueline. um and to a younger sister Jacqueline. um and to a certain extent his older sister Gilbert.

certain extent his older sister Gilbert. certain extent his older sister Gilbert. Um they be they become influenced by the Um they be they become influenced by the Um they be they become influenced by the Jans this Jansenist movement this Jans this Jansenist movement this Jans this Jansenist movement this devotional movement in in in France. devotional movement in in in France. devotional movement in in in France. Pascal is sort of attracted to it but Pascal is sort of attracted to it but Pascal is sort of attracted to it but he's also you know a kind of man about he's also you know a kind of man about he's also you know a kind of man about town. He's doing his scientific town. He's doing his scientific town. He's doing his scientific explorations. He's becoming famous for explorations. He's becoming famous for explorations. He's becoming famous for his calculating machine. Everybody wants his calculating machine. Everybody wants his calculating machine. Everybody wants to talk to Pascal. He's very kind of to talk to Pascal. He's very kind of to talk to Pascal. He's very kind of witty. He's very clever. Uh he's going witty. He's very clever. Uh he's going witty. He's very clever. Uh he's going around the salons of Paris. And there's around the salons of Paris. And there's around the salons of Paris. And there's a bit of a tussle going on I think in a bit of a tussle going on I think in a bit of a tussle going on I think in Pascal's life at this time. on the one Pascal's life at this time. on the one Pascal's life at this time. on the one hand is his his sister is very devoted hand is his his sister is very devoted hand is his his sister is very devoted to Jansenist this Jansenism to Jansenist this Jansenism to Jansenist this Jansenism spirituality. She enters a convent, you spirituality. She enters a convent, you spirituality. She enters a convent, you know, shuts herself off from the world know, shuts herself off from the world know, shuts herself off from the world and she she kind of feels that Pascal, and she she kind of feels that Pascal, and she she kind of feels that Pascal, her brother Blae, should do the same her brother Blae, should do the same her brother Blae, should do the same thing. And part of him is drawn to that, thing. And part of him is drawn to that, thing. And part of him is drawn to that, but the other part of him is drawn to but the other part of him is drawn to but the other part of him is drawn to this public career as a scientist, as a this public career as a scientist, as a this public career as a scientist, as a public intellectual, someone who's public intellectual, someone who's public intellectual, someone who's interacting with people like Gren Decott interacting with people like Gren Decott interacting with people like Gren Decott and others. He was a contemporary of and others. He was a contemporary of and others. He was a contemporary of Pascal's. And so there's like an Pascal's. And so there's like an Pascal's. And so there's like an unresolved tension at the heart of unresolved tension at the heart of unresolved tension at the heart of Pascal's life. You know, what where Pascal's life. You know, what where Pascal's life. You know, what where should he go? Should he enter the should he go? Should he enter the should he go? Should he enter the monastery? Should he should he enter monastery? Should he should he enter monastery? Should he should he enter into a kind of secluded life like his into a kind of secluded life like his into a kind of secluded life like his sister did and a life of devotion to God sister did and a life of devotion to God sister did and a life of devotion to God and prayer and the reading of scripture and prayer and the reading of scripture and prayer and the reading of scripture and so on or should he uh throw himself and so on or should he uh throw himself and so on or should he uh throw himself into this kind of um this this other into this kind of um this this other into this kind of um this this other world which is the world of the salons world which is the world of the salons world which is the world of the salons in Paris and um you know witty in Paris and um you know witty in Paris and um you know witty conversation and uh scientific conversation and uh scientific conversation and uh scientific experimentation and winning prizes at experimentation and winning prizes at experimentation and winning prizes at mathematics and so on and uh this mathematics and so on and uh this mathematics and so on and uh this tension is slightly resolved you can you tension is slightly resolved you can you tension is slightly resolved you can you feel it this is kind of building up and feel it this is kind of building up and feel it this is kind of building up and it's building up and it's building up it's building up and it's building up it's building up and it's building up and it it it leads to a particular and it it it leads to a particular and it it it leads to a particular experience appearance which happens at experience appearance which happens at experience appearance which happens at the end of November 1654. We know the end of November 1654. We know the end of November 1654. We know exactly when this happened because um uh

exactly when this happened because um uh exactly when this happened because um uh well what what happened was that somehow well what what happened was that somehow well what what happened was that somehow alone in his room at night he seems to alone in his room at night he seems to alone in his room at night he seems to have had a a profound experience of the have had a a profound experience of the have had a a profound experience of the presence of God. Uh and this lasts for presence of God. Uh and this lasts for presence of God. Uh and this lasts for about 2 hours he says from past 10 at about 2 hours he says from past 10 at about 2 hours he says from past 10 at midnight till about half past 10 in the midnight till about half past 10 in the midnight till about half past 10 in the evening till about half past midnight. evening till about half past midnight. evening till about half past midnight. Um and he dates it exactly so we know Um and he dates it exactly so we know Um and he dates it exactly so we know when it is. And what he does is he he when it is. And what he does is he he when it is. And what he does is he he writes a kind of poem. He writes an writes a kind of poem. He writes an writes a kind of poem. He writes an account of it. Um in fact he writes two, account of it. Um in fact he writes two, account of it. Um in fact he writes two, one scribbled at the time, one written one scribbled at the time, one written one scribbled at the time, one written out a little bit more carefully. And he out a little bit more carefully. And he out a little bit more carefully. And he folds them together and he he inserts folds them together and he he inserts folds them together and he he inserts them into the lining of his cloak. them into the lining of his cloak. them into the lining of his cloak. And he never he never tells anyone, And he never he never tells anyone, And he never he never tells anyone, never tells his sisters, never tells his never tells his sisters, never tells his never tells his sisters, never tells his family, never tells his friends about family, never tells his friends about family, never tells his friends about this experience. Um, and we only know this experience. Um, and we only know this experience. Um, and we only know about it because when he died, uh, the about it because when he died, uh, the about it because when he died, uh, the servant who was preparing his body for servant who was preparing his body for servant who was preparing his body for burial, um, was cutting open his his his burial, um, was cutting open his his his burial, um, was cutting open his his his jacket and felt something in in the jacket and felt something in in the jacket and felt something in in the lining and thought there's something lining and thought there's something lining and thought there's something something here. So, he opened it up and something here. So, he opened it up and something here. So, he opened it up and out came these two bits of paper and on out came these two bits of paper and on out came these two bits of paper and on it is written this this document which it is written this this document which it is written this this document which is now known as the memorial is now known as the memorial is now known as the memorial and it has the word fu fire at the top and it has the word fu fire at the top and it has the word fu fire at the top which is why it's sometimes called the which is why it's sometimes called the which is why it's sometimes called the night of fire. and um and and it just night of fire. and um and and it just night of fire. and um and and it just this is this powerful account of this this is this powerful account of this this is this powerful account of this experience. It's a very visceral account experience. It's a very visceral account experience. It's a very visceral account of that um this sense of certainty he of that um this sense of certainty he of that um this sense of certainty he gets with this encounter with God and gets with this encounter with God and gets with this encounter with God and you you might know the phrase the god of you you might know the phrase the god of you you might know the phrase the god of the philosophers the god of Jesus Christ the philosophers the god of Jesus Christ the philosophers the god of Jesus Christ not the god of the philosophers that he not the god of the philosophers that he not the god of the philosophers that he comes from that text and so in terms of comes from that text and so in terms of comes from that text and so in terms of the god that he has encountered in this

the god that he has encountered in this the god that he has encountered in this moment is the the living god the god of moment is the the living god the god of moment is the the living god the god of Jesus Christ the god of Abraham Isaac Jesus Christ the god of Abraham Isaac Jesus Christ the god of Abraham Isaac and Jacob this deeply personal god who and Jacob this deeply personal god who and Jacob this deeply personal god who has been hunting down pascal for years has been hunting down pascal for years has been hunting down pascal for years as it were not the god of the as it were not the god of the as it were not the god of the philosophers not the god of daycart philosophers not the god of daycart philosophers not the god of daycart not the god who is the is the end of a not the god who is the is the end of a not the god who is the is the end of a of a whole process of philosophical of a whole process of philosophical of a whole process of philosophical argumentation that you can just tick off argumentation that you can just tick off argumentation that you can just tick off and say yes I believe in this god now and say yes I believe in this god now and say yes I believe in this god now this is a this is a real live living god this is a this is a real live living god this is a this is a real live living god who has kind of been hunting Pascal down who has kind of been hunting Pascal down who has kind of been hunting Pascal down for for some time so this is a profound for for some time so this is a profound for for some time so this is a profound experience for him now it doesn't mean experience for him now it doesn't mean experience for him now it doesn't mean that he gives up his scientific that he gives up his scientific that he gives up his scientific explorations he carries on doing those explorations he carries on doing those explorations he carries on doing those he carries on doing mathematics but they he carries on doing mathematics but they he carries on doing mathematics but they take a much lesser place in his life you take a much lesser place in his life you take a much lesser place in his life you feel there's a kind of peacefulness feel there's a kind of peacefulness feel there's a kind of peacefulness descends upon Pascal from this moment descends upon Pascal from this moment descends upon Pascal from this moment because he's found he hasn't turned because he's found he hasn't turned because he's found he hasn't turned turned away from um scientific mathemat turned away from um scientific mathemat turned away from um scientific mathemat mathematical work. But he's they found mathematical work. But he's they found mathematical work. But he's they found their proper place in his life. They no their proper place in his life. They no their proper place in his life. They no longer dominate his horizon. They no longer dominate his horizon. They no longer dominate his horizon. They no longer are a source of well they become longer are a source of well they become longer are a source of well they become less of a source of prideful less of a source of prideful less of a source of prideful arrogance in him. And there's a streak arrogance in him. And there's a streak arrogance in him. And there's a streak of arrogance in Pascal's character that of arrogance in Pascal's character that of arrogance in Pascal's character that I think is part of the significance of I think is part of the significance of I think is part of the significance of this moment. Well, you describe that as this moment. Well, you describe that as this moment. Well, you describe that as his besetting sin. Is that right? His his besetting sin. Is that right? His his besetting sin. Is that right? His pride. Yeah, I think it is. There was a pride. Yeah, I think it is. There was a pride. Yeah, I think it is. There was a there was a there's a every now and there was a there's a every now and there was a there's a every now and again, you know, you it kind of flashes again, you know, you it kind of flashes again, you know, you it kind of flashes out. There's a there's a you he was out. There's a there's a you he was out. There's a there's a you he was brilliant and he knew it. Um and he brilliant and he knew it. Um and he brilliant and he knew it. Um and he would he would often sort of parade his would he would often sort of parade his would he would often sort of parade his knowledge a little bit and he had a knowledge a little bit and he had a knowledge a little bit and he had a particular thing which is what one um particular thing which is what one um particular thing which is what one um one one writer on Pascal calls his his one one writer on Pascal calls his his one one writer on Pascal calls his his demon of combat. He loved an argument.

demon of combat. He loved an argument. demon of combat. He loved an argument. He loved winning arguments and uh he He loved winning arguments and uh he He loved winning arguments and uh he could be quite he could be cruel could be quite he could be cruel could be quite he could be cruel sometimes because he was very clever. sometimes because he was very clever. sometimes because he was very clever. you'd never want an argument with Pascal you'd never want an argument with Pascal you'd never want an argument with Pascal and he could kind of pummel his advers and he could kind of pummel his advers and he could kind of pummel his advers adversary into the ground and there are adversary into the ground and there are adversary into the ground and there are occasional times when you kind of feel occasional times when you kind of feel occasional times when you kind of feel he's he's being pretty unfair on people. he's he's being pretty unfair on people. he's he's being pretty unfair on people. He picks on people who are left less He picks on people who are left less He picks on people who are left less clever than him um than he disagrees clever than him um than he disagrees clever than him um than he disagrees with and he uh he really beats them down with and he uh he really beats them down with and he uh he really beats them down in in argumentation. It's not an in in argumentation. It's not an in in argumentation. It's not an attractive characteristic, but I think attractive characteristic, but I think attractive characteristic, but I think it's one of the one that he began to it's one of the one that he began to it's one of the one that he began to overcome towards the end of his life. overcome towards the end of his life. overcome towards the end of his life. You see you sense as you as he moves You see you sense as you as he moves You see you sense as you as he moves towards the end of his life there's a towards the end of his life there's a towards the end of his life there's a there's a renewed sort of humility. there's a renewed sort of humility. there's a renewed sort of humility. there's a a kind of gradual overcoming there's a a kind of gradual overcoming there's a a kind of gradual overcoming of that besetting sin of prideful of that besetting sin of prideful of that besetting sin of prideful combative arrogance that he recognizes combative arrogance that he recognizes combative arrogance that he recognizes in himself and he begins to address it. in himself and he begins to address it. in himself and he begins to address it. Um, which is kind of kind of humbling to Um, which is kind of kind of humbling to Um, which is kind of kind of humbling to see. Speaking of people he did not like, see. Speaking of people he did not like, see. Speaking of people he did not like, why didn't he get along with the why didn't he get along with the why didn't he get along with the Jesuits? Jesuits? Jesuits? >> Yeah. Well, the Jesuits, you're right. >> Yeah. Well, the Jesuits, you're right. >> Yeah. Well, the Jesuits, you're right. He he um he had a kind of, you know, He he um he had a kind of, you know, He he um he had a kind of, you know, long he picked a fight with the Jesuits long he picked a fight with the Jesuits long he picked a fight with the Jesuits for quite some time, which is not not a for quite some time, which is not not a for quite some time, which is not not a clever thing to do in many ways. in 17th clever thing to do in many ways. in 17th clever thing to do in many ways. in 17th century France because the Jesuits were century France because the Jesuits were century France because the Jesuits were very powerful. So the Jesuit order by very powerful. So the Jesuit order by very powerful. So the Jesuit order by this stage had become very allied to the this stage had become very allied to the this stage had become very allied to the royal court of Louis the 14th and the royal court of Louis the 14th and the royal court of Louis the 14th and the king's confessor was a Jesuit. Um and I king's confessor was a Jesuit. Um and I king's confessor was a Jesuit. Um and I think the reason why he disliked the think the reason why he disliked the think the reason why he disliked the Jesuits was because he felt the Jesuits Jesuits was because he felt the Jesuits Jesuits was because he felt the Jesuits were um were advocating a kind of were um were advocating a kind of were um were advocating a kind of conversion without repentance.

conversion without repentance. conversion without repentance. uh because uh because uh because in some ways there is there are in some ways there is there are in some ways there is there are similarities between Pascal and the similarities between Pascal and the similarities between Pascal and the Jesuits. They they both want to try to Jesuits. They they both want to try to Jesuits. They they both want to try to help people find faith in Christ. Um help people find faith in Christ. Um help people find faith in Christ. Um they're aware of a kind of growing they're aware of a kind of growing they're aware of a kind of growing skepticism, maybe the beginnings of skepticism, maybe the beginnings of skepticism, maybe the beginnings of modern atheism happening around in in modern atheism happening around in in modern atheism happening around in in France and in Europe in the 17th France and in Europe in the 17th France and in Europe in the 17th century. And they're both keen to kind century. And they're both keen to kind century. And they're both keen to kind of enable people to to live the of enable people to to live the of enable people to to live the Christian life and to kind of find Christian life and to kind of find Christian life and to kind of find Christ and to be part of the church and Christ and to be part of the church and Christ and to be part of the church and so on. But they take very different so on. But they take very different so on. But they take very different approaches to it. The Jesuits take the approaches to it. The Jesuits take the approaches to it. The Jesuits take the approach of saying, well, let's make approach of saying, well, let's make approach of saying, well, let's make this as easy as possible for people to this as easy as possible for people to this as easy as possible for people to be part of the church. Um, uh, you may be part of the church. Um, uh, you may be part of the church. Um, uh, you may know Jesuits are the Jesuit tradition is know Jesuits are the Jesuit tradition is know Jesuits are the Jesuit tradition is is, um, known for what's called is, um, known for what's called is, um, known for what's called casuistry, case law, you know, casuistry, case law, you know, casuistry, case law, you know, particularly individual approaches to particularly individual approaches to particularly individual approaches to different people rather than a kind of different people rather than a kind of different people rather than a kind of generic approach to things. And, um, uh, generic approach to things. And, um, uh, generic approach to things. And, um, uh, he he felt that the Jesuits were kind of he he felt that the Jesuits were kind of he he felt that the Jesuits were kind of bending the rules, making it possible. bending the rules, making it possible. bending the rules, making it possible. So they would say things like, well, you So they would say things like, well, you So they would say things like, well, you know, if you um if you if you go to know, if you um if you if you go to know, if you um if you if you go to mass, you can't stay for the whole mass, you can't stay for the whole mass, you can't stay for the whole thing, but if you're there for the thing, but if you're there for the thing, but if you're there for the beginning, that's fine. That's a that's beginning, that's fine. That's a that's beginning, that's fine. That's a that's a that's a work that is some meritorious a that's a work that is some meritorious a that's a work that is some meritorious before God. Um if you kind of think of before God. Um if you kind of think of before God. Um if you kind of think of God from time to time, well, that's God from time to time, well, that's God from time to time, well, that's enough. you know, they would they kind enough. you know, they would they kind enough. you know, they would they kind of lower the bar if you like of of of lower the bar if you like of of of lower the bar if you like of of Christian behavior to make it possible Christian behavior to make it possible Christian behavior to make it possible for um uh for you know some of the for um uh for you know some of the for um uh for you know some of the people that Pascal knew very well people that Pascal knew very well people that Pascal knew very well sophisticated men about talent like him sophisticated men about talent like him sophisticated men about talent like him to be Christian to be part of the church to be Christian to be part of the church to be Christian to be part of the church they would kind of lower the bar to make they would kind of lower the bar to make they would kind of lower the bar to make that that possible. Pascal takes the that that possible. Pascal takes the that that possible. Pascal takes the opposite approach. You need to high opposite approach. You need to high opposite approach. You need to high raise the bar. Um for him disciplehip raise the bar. Um for him disciplehip raise the bar. Um for him disciplehip was a was a kind of rigorous thing. It

was a was a kind of rigorous thing. It was a was a kind of rigorous thing. It was about intense prayer. It was about was about intense prayer. It was about was about intense prayer. It was about devotion to God. It was about devotion to God. It was about devotion to God. It was about encountering this this powerful um encountering this this powerful um encountering this this powerful um personal god that he'd encountered on on personal god that he'd encountered on on personal god that he'd encountered on on the night of fire. And so when he read the night of fire. And so when he read the night of fire. And so when he read of the um of the uh the Jesuits arguing of the um of the uh the Jesuits arguing of the um of the uh the Jesuits arguing for a kind of con you he could be for a kind of con you he could be for a kind of con you he could be converted without real change of life converted without real change of life converted without real change of life without real repentance. He reacted without real repentance. He reacted without real repentance. He reacted quite strongly against that and that was quite strongly against that and that was quite strongly against that and that was that's what led to the provincial that's what led to the provincial that's what led to the provincial letters which we could talk about in a letters which we could talk about in a letters which we could talk about in a moment. Um but yeah, the kind of moment. Um but yeah, the kind of moment. Um but yeah, the kind of antipathy towards the Jesuits of his antipathy towards the Jesuits of his antipathy towards the Jesuits of his time. I think there's also in there a time. I think there's also in there a time. I think there's also in there a kind of subtle um uh resistance or kind of subtle um uh resistance or kind of subtle um uh resistance or uh [clears throat] or if you like a uh [clears throat] or if you like a uh [clears throat] or if you like a subtle kind of attack on on the court of subtle kind of attack on on the court of subtle kind of attack on on the court of Louis the 14th which was this very Louis the 14th which was this very Louis the 14th which was this very opulent, very extravagant opulent, very extravagant opulent, very extravagant uh powerful assertion of sort of uh powerful assertion of sort of uh powerful assertion of sort of Catholic presence and of royal power. Catholic presence and of royal power. Catholic presence and of royal power. Everyone had to bow to the to to the um Everyone had to bow to the to to the um Everyone had to bow to the to to the um to to the king. His favor was what gave to to the king. His favor was what gave to to the king. His favor was what gave social advantage. And it's almost if the social advantage. And it's almost if the social advantage. And it's almost if the king had come into the place of God, king had come into the place of God, king had come into the place of God, into the place of Jesus Christ. And into the place of Jesus Christ. And into the place of Jesus Christ. And Pascal didn't didn't like that at all.

Pascal didn't didn't like that at all. Pascal didn't didn't like that at all. And the Jesuits allied to that royal And the Jesuits allied to that royal And the Jesuits allied to that royal court making that kind of that kind of court making that kind of that kind of court making that kind of that kind of powerful Catholicism possible within powerful Catholicism possible within powerful Catholicism possible within France. He was already opposed to that. France. He was already opposed to that. France. He was already opposed to that. And so those that is those I think are And so those that is those I think are And so those that is those I think are some of the reasons why he was opposed some of the reasons why he was opposed some of the reasons why he was opposed to the Jesuits. So that's the Jesuits. to the Jesuits. So that's the Jesuits. to the Jesuits. So that's the Jesuits. You've mentioned earlier the Jansenists, You've mentioned earlier the Jansenists, You've mentioned earlier the Jansenists, mentioned a little bit of some of his mentioned a little bit of some of his mentioned a little bit of some of his family connection and that was a little family connection and that was a little family connection and that was a little bit closer to his social circle. Um, but bit closer to his social circle. Um, but bit closer to his social circle. Um, but help explain the relationship between help explain the relationship between help explain the relationship between the Jansenists than to Calvin and to the Jansenists than to Calvin and to the Jansenists than to Calvin and to reform theology. This is a very reform theology. This is a very reform theology. This is a very complicated matter because when you when complicated matter because when you when complicated matter because when you when you read Pascal as a as a Calvinist, you you read Pascal as a as a Calvinist, you you read Pascal as a as a Calvinist, you see, wow, there's a lot of similarity see, wow, there's a lot of similarity see, wow, there's a lot of similarity here. That's the Augustinian heritage, here. That's the Augustinian heritage, here. That's the Augustinian heritage, no doubt. But Pascal was absolutely no doubt. But Pascal was absolutely no doubt. But Pascal was absolutely appalled by that connection. So help appalled by that connection. So help appalled by that connection. So help explain this Jansenist movement. explain this Jansenist movement. explain this Jansenist movement. >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, um, you're >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, um, you're >> Yeah, that's right. Yeah. So, um, you're right. There are there are some real right. There are there are some real right. There are there are some real similarities between Pascal sometimes similarities between Pascal sometimes similarities between Pascal sometimes called a kind of cryptocalvinist. called a kind of cryptocalvinist. called a kind of cryptocalvinist. Um, and people have seen connections Um, and people have seen connections Um, and people have seen connections between Protestantism and Calvin. Was he between Protestantism and Calvin. Was he between Protestantism and Calvin. Was he really a secret Protestant all along?

really a secret Protestant all along? really a secret Protestant all along? And, uh, now he he always denied that. And, uh, now he he always denied that. And, uh, now he he always denied that. He always denied it very sort of He always denied it very sort of He always denied it very sort of viciferously partly for political viciferously partly for political viciferously partly for political reasons because in France at the at the reasons because in France at the at the reasons because in France at the at the time the the deep divide between time the the deep divide between time the the deep divide between Catholics and Calvinists was very very Catholics and Calvinists was very very Catholics and Calvinists was very very deep. You know the memory of the deep. You know the memory of the deep. You know the memory of the Bartholomew day massacre was kind of Bartholomew day massacre was kind of Bartholomew day massacre was kind of still alive in Pascal's time which is still alive in Pascal's time which is still alive in Pascal's time which is when of course many thousands of when of course many thousands of when of course many thousands of Protestants were were murdered by Protestants were were murdered by Protestants were were murdered by Catholics and there were atrocities on Catholics and there were atrocities on Catholics and there were atrocities on both sides in this debate. So the kind both sides in this debate. So the kind both sides in this debate. So the kind of Protestant Catholic thing in France of Protestant Catholic thing in France of Protestant Catholic thing in France Calvinist Catholics was a was a deep Calvinist Catholics was a was a deep Calvinist Catholics was a was a deep deep issue. he could not afford to be deep issue. he could not afford to be deep issue. he could not afford to be seen as a as a Calvinist. But it wasn't seen as a as a Calvinist. But it wasn't seen as a as a Calvinist. But it wasn't just politics, I think, for um for just politics, I think, for um for just politics, I think, for um for Pascal. Uh the similarities, I think, Pascal. Uh the similarities, I think, Pascal. Uh the similarities, I think, are explained by their common uh are explained by their common uh are explained by their common uh background in Augustine. Uh because both background in Augustine. Uh because both background in Augustine. Uh because both Luther and Calvin are, of course, deeply Luther and Calvin are, of course, deeply Luther and Calvin are, of course, deeply deeply influenced by um by Augustine and deeply influenced by um by Augustine and deeply influenced by um by Augustine and this deep sense of fallenness. And this deep sense of fallenness. And this deep sense of fallenness. And again, that's something that Pascal again, that's something that Pascal again, that's something that Pascal shares with him that he doesn't share shares with him that he doesn't share shares with him that he doesn't share with the Jesuits. Just Jesuits don't with the Jesuits. Just Jesuits don't with the Jesuits. Just Jesuits don't have a strong sense of the fallenness, have a strong sense of the fallenness, have a strong sense of the fallenness, the brokenness of humanity. which is why the brokenness of humanity. which is why the brokenness of humanity. which is why a little bit of tinkering here and there a little bit of tinkering here and there a little bit of tinkering here and there of the Jesuit seems to seems to be fine.

of the Jesuit seems to seems to be fine. of the Jesuit seems to seems to be fine. That's all that's needed. Um at least as That's all that's needed. Um at least as That's all that's needed. Um at least as far as Pascal sees it. Um but um so and far as Pascal sees it. Um but um so and far as Pascal sees it. Um but um so and of course both Augustine has a very of course both Augustine has a very of course both Augustine has a very strong doctrine of grace. You know grace strong doctrine of grace. You know grace strong doctrine of grace. You know grace is predominant. Grace is what liberates is predominant. Grace is what liberates is predominant. Grace is what liberates the human being. Grace is what releases the human being. Grace is what releases the human being. Grace is what releases uh in us a desire for God. And unless uh in us a desire for God. And unless uh in us a desire for God. And unless grace touches us, unless grace reaches grace touches us, unless grace reaches grace touches us, unless grace reaches down and changes our hearts, we don't down and changes our hearts, we don't down and changes our hearts, we don't love God. You know, we love ourselves love God. You know, we love ourselves love God. You know, we love ourselves and we're oriented to ourselves, which and we're oriented to ourselves, which and we're oriented to ourselves, which is the great kind of Austinian is the great kind of Austinian is the great kind of Austinian opposition. Now, there's something of opposition. Now, there's something of opposition. Now, there's something of that in Luther, there's something that that in Luther, there's something that that in Luther, there's something that in Calvin, there's something that in in Calvin, there's something that in in Calvin, there's something that in Pascal, but they do take different views Pascal, but they do take different views Pascal, but they do take different views of of grace in it all. And so, you know, of of grace in it all. And so, you know, of of grace in it all. And so, you know, Pascal doesn't go with a kind of Pascal doesn't go with a kind of Pascal doesn't go with a kind of Calvinist sense of um of determination. Calvinist sense of um of determination. Calvinist sense of um of determination. he doesn't go with sort of Calvin's kind he doesn't go with sort of Calvin's kind he doesn't go with sort of Calvin's kind of ideas of pre predestination. Um he he of ideas of pre predestination. Um he he of ideas of pre predestination. Um he he places himself in between on the one places himself in between on the one places himself in between on the one side Calvinists where there's no sense side Calvinists where there's no sense side Calvinists where there's no sense of a kind of human choice at all and on of a kind of human choice at all and on of a kind of human choice at all and on the other side what he calls mullinists the other side what he calls mullinists the other side what he calls mullinists which are kind of kind of like the which are kind of kind of like the which are kind of kind of like the Jesuits um where basically it's all Jesuits um where basically it's all Jesuits um where basically it's all about human choice. So for him he he about human choice. So for him he he about human choice. So for him he he sets off this whole position that that sets off this whole position that that sets off this whole position that that Calvin um where God determines Calvin um where God determines Calvin um where God determines everything and there's no human everything and there's no human everything and there's no human participation in salvation whatsoever.

participation in salvation whatsoever. participation in salvation whatsoever. On the other side, he argues the On the other side, he argues the On the other side, he argues the Mullenists, the Jesuits, it's all about Mullenists, the Jesuits, it's all about Mullenists, the Jesuits, it's all about human response. You know, grace is given human response. You know, grace is given human response. You know, grace is given to every person, but the use of that to every person, but the use of that to every person, but the use of that grace is entirely dependent on our will grace is entirely dependent on our will grace is entirely dependent on our will and some choose to do that, some don't. and some choose to do that, some don't. and some choose to do that, some don't. And he he pl he paints himself as a And he he pl he paints himself as a And he he pl he paints himself as a classic Augustinian. classic Augustinian. classic Augustinian. And um uh and by that he says that in And um uh and by that he says that in And um uh and by that he says that in our unfallen state um you know God gave our unfallen state um you know God gave our unfallen state um you know God gave us the the grace to be act gave us grace us the the grace to be act gave us grace us the the grace to be act gave us grace that could be acted upon by each person that could be acted upon by each person that could be acted upon by each person but in our fallen state we're unable to but in our fallen state we're unable to but in our fallen state we're unable to respond to God but the god enables us to respond to God but the god enables us to respond to God but the god enables us to respond. Uh and then if you like we do respond. Uh and then if you like we do respond. Uh and then if you like we do respond. So he kind of tries to position respond. So he kind of tries to position respond. So he kind of tries to position himself in between the Jesuits and the himself in between the Jesuits and the himself in between the Jesuits and the Calvinists in that way. But there's a Calvinists in that way. But there's a Calvinists in that way. But there's a very strong similarity with the very strong similarity with the very strong similarity with the Calvinist for for Pascal which is why Calvinist for for Pascal which is why Calvinist for for Pascal which is why he's often been seen as a kind of secret he's often been seen as a kind of secret he's often been seen as a kind of secret Calvinist even though I don't think he Calvinist even though I don't think he Calvinist even though I don't think he is quite exactly that. is quite exactly that. is quite exactly that. >> So more of a like a Armenian prevenient >> So more of a like a Armenian prevenient >> So more of a like a Armenian prevenient grace similarity then um it's not really grace similarity then um it's not really grace similarity then um it's not really that because it's not it's it's well it that because it's not it's it's well it that because it's not it's it's well it is a kind of prevenient grace um uh that is a kind of prevenient grace um uh that is a kind of prevenient grace um uh that enables us that frees us. Without that enables us that frees us. Without that enables us that frees us. Without that grace God cannot you know we cannot grace God cannot you know we cannot grace God cannot you know we cannot respond to God. But he then does um urge respond to God. But he then does um urge respond to God. But he then does um urge a kind of response. There are things we a kind of response. There are things we a kind of response. There are things we can do to place ourselves in the place can do to place ourselves in the place can do to place ourselves in the place of grace and he argues that in the wager of grace and he argues that in the wager of grace and he argues that in the wager we again we'll talk about that in in a we again we'll talk about that in in a we again we'll talk about that in in a minute I'm sure as well but that's kind minute I'm sure as well but that's kind minute I'm sure as well but that's kind of where he gets of where he gets of where he gets >> um he gets to in that. And um uh so he >> um he gets to in that. And um uh so he >> um he gets to in that. And um uh so he kind of sees kind of sees kind of sees yeah and he he doesn't go for a kind of yeah and he he doesn't go for a kind of yeah and he he doesn't go for a kind of double predestination that you find in

double predestination that you find in double predestination that you find in in in um in Calvin. He says, you know, in in um in Calvin. He says, you know, in in um in Calvin. He says, you know, salvation is from the will of God, salvation is from the will of God, salvation is from the will of God, damnation is from the will of man. Um, damnation is from the will of man. Um, damnation is from the will of man. Um, and so, you know, in the kind of various and so, you know, in the kind of various and so, you know, in the kind of various depictions of grace and how it works, he depictions of grace and how it works, he depictions of grace and how it works, he positions he tries to position himself positions he tries to position himself positions he tries to position himself kind of between the Jesuits and the kind of between the Jesuits and the kind of between the Jesuits and the Calvinists. And I think that's what he Calvinists. And I think that's what he Calvinists. And I think that's what he tries to do. Now, whether he's tries to do. Now, whether he's tries to do. Now, whether he's successful in that, that's up to others successful in that, that's up to others successful in that, that's up to others to judge, but that's what he tries to to judge, but that's what he tries to to judge, but that's what he tries to do. He's also I think it's also worth do. He's also I think it's also worth do. He's also I think it's also worth saying um he has a much he has I mean he saying um he has a much he has I mean he saying um he has a much he has I mean he has a very intense spirituality which is has a very intense spirituality which is has a very intense spirituality which is kind of some ways like like Calvin but kind of some ways like like Calvin but kind of some ways like like Calvin but it's a little bit more um it's a little bit more um it's a little bit more um there there's a great emphasis on there there's a great emphasis on there there's a great emphasis on self-denial the hatred of the self is a self-denial the hatred of the self is a self-denial the hatred of the self is a language that he uses again we might language that he uses again we might language that he uses again we might talk about that in a moment in a in a talk about that in a moment in a in a talk about that in a moment in a in a much more kind of stronger way I think much more kind of stronger way I think much more kind of stronger way I think that Calvin would would would have and that Calvin would would would have and that Calvin would would would have and um that's something about Pascal yeah um that's something about Pascal yeah um that's something about Pascal yeah >> or Luther probably then either >> or Luther probably then either >> or Luther probably then either >> or Luther yeah exactly yeah >> or Luther yeah exactly yeah >> or Luther yeah exactly yeah >> okay Well, let's talk then. I think this >> okay Well, let's talk then. I think this >> okay Well, let's talk then. I think this related to one of his apologetic related to one of his apologetic related to one of his apologetic arguments, the uh the hiddenness of God arguments, the uh the hiddenness of God arguments, the uh the hiddenness of God as an apologetic for his existence. So, as an apologetic for his existence. So, as an apologetic for his existence. So, Graham, in my reading of Pascal, in my Graham, in my reading of Pascal, in my Graham, in my reading of Pascal, in my teaching of cultural apologetics, I'd teaching of cultural apologetics, I'd teaching of cultural apologetics, I'd actually just never encountered this actually just never encountered this actually just never encountered this before. So the most the biggest takeaway before. So the most the biggest takeaway before. So the most the biggest takeaway that I couldn't stop talking to people that I couldn't stop talking to people that I couldn't stop talking to people about I was trying to explain this to my about I was trying to explain this to my about I was trying to explain this to my you know family and it was I wasn't you know family and it was I wasn't you know family and it was I wasn't explaining it very well [laughter] explaining it very well [laughter] explaining it very well [laughter] but this line from Pascal he hides but this line from Pascal he hides but this line from Pascal he hides himself from those who test him and himself from those who test him and himself from those who test him and reveals himself to those who seek him.

reveals himself to those who seek him. reveals himself to those who seek him. >> It seems like one of the basic arguments >> It seems like one of the basic arguments >> It seems like one of the basic arguments that we get for atheism is well if God that we get for atheism is well if God that we get for atheism is well if God existed wouldn't he make that obvious existed wouldn't he make that obvious existed wouldn't he make that obvious which they're saying to me. Then Pascal which they're saying to me. Then Pascal which they're saying to me. Then Pascal spins that on its head. Correct. and spins that on its head. Correct. and spins that on its head. Correct. and says, "Well, it's exactly his hiddenness says, "Well, it's exactly his hiddenness says, "Well, it's exactly his hiddenness that proves his existence because if you that proves his existence because if you that proves his existence because if you wanted him, you would find him." wanted him, you would find him." wanted him, you would find him." >> Yeah. Tell us more. >> Yeah. Tell us more. >> Yeah. Tell us more. >> No, that's right. And I think it's a big >> No, that's right. And I think it's a big >> No, that's right. And I think it's a big theme for for Pascal is this idea theme for for Pascal is this idea theme for for Pascal is this idea that the the hidden god is a big theme. that the the hidden god is a big theme. that the the hidden god is a big theme. It's actually there in Luther and Calvin It's actually there in Luther and Calvin It's actually there in Luther and Calvin as well actually. They they talk about as well actually. They they talk about as well actually. They they talk about the hidden god in in different ways, but the hidden god in in different ways, but the hidden god in in different ways, but in a similar kind of way. And I think it in a similar kind of way. And I think it in a similar kind of way. And I think it comes out comes about in Pascal because comes out comes about in Pascal because comes out comes about in Pascal because um and the way the way I tell the story um and the way the way I tell the story um and the way the way I tell the story in in the book is that he there's this in in the book is that he there's this in in the book is that he there's this remarkable remarkable remarkable event in Pascal's life where in the event in Pascal's life where in the event in Pascal's life where in the middle of this great controversy with middle of this great controversy with middle of this great controversy with the Jesuits um his niece uh little girl the Jesuits um his niece uh little girl the Jesuits um his niece uh little girl called Margarit Perry uh has this called Margarit Perry uh has this called Margarit Perry uh has this terrible eye condition. and she has this terrible eye condition. and she has this terrible eye condition. and she has this really kind of bad fistula in in her eye really kind of bad fistula in in her eye really kind of bad fistula in in her eye and um and in a kind of strange moment and um and in a kind of strange moment and um and in a kind of strange moment especially for those of us who are especially for those of us who are especially for those of us who are Protestant perhaps um you know the uh Protestant perhaps um you know the uh Protestant perhaps um you know the uh the in the convent where she lives um the in the convent where she lives um the in the convent where she lives um there's a kind of relic of the of the there's a kind of relic of the of the there's a kind of relic of the of the the crown of thorns you know the one of the crown of thorns you know the one of the crown of thorns you know the one of the thorns that was meant to be on the thorns that was meant to be on the thorns that was meant to be on Jesus's head was was there and one of Jesus's head was was there and one of Jesus's head was was there and one of the nuns takes this this thorn and the nuns takes this this thorn and the nuns takes this this thorn and applies it to the to the to this you applies it to the to the to this you applies it to the to the to this you know this fistula in the eye and later know this fistula in the eye and later know this fistula in the eye and later on that night The girl comes to the nana on that night The girl comes to the nana on that night The girl comes to the nana and says, you know, sister, the the fish and says, you know, sister, the the fish and says, you know, sister, the the fish is gone. And this really dreadful

is gone. And this really dreadful is gone. And this really dreadful condition which the doctors were about condition which the doctors were about condition which the doctors were about to treat by inserting a kind of red hot to treat by inserting a kind of red hot to treat by inserting a kind of red hot iron in the eye to kind of drain it and iron in the eye to kind of drain it and iron in the eye to kind of drain it and so on. And they were trying to work out so on. And they were trying to work out so on. And they were trying to work out whether they do this. Suddenly the thing whether they do this. Suddenly the thing whether they do this. Suddenly the thing is remarkably gone. This this miracle is remarkably gone. This this miracle is remarkably gone. This this miracle happened. It's sometimes called the happened. It's sometimes called the happened. It's sometimes called the miracle of the holy thorn. Now what do miracle of the holy thorn. Now what do miracle of the holy thorn. Now what do you make of that? Um they then get seven you make of that? Um they then get seven you make of that? Um they then get seven doctors to come along who'd seen the doctors to come along who'd seen the doctors to come along who'd seen the girl's eye and they all say, "Well, we girl's eye and they all say, "Well, we girl's eye and they all say, "Well, we can't make anything of this. it must be can't make anything of this. it must be can't make anything of this. it must be a miracle. Um but um Pascal then um a miracle. Um but um Pascal then um a miracle. Um but um Pascal then um thinks well you this is this is a pretty thinks well you this is this is a pretty thinks well you this is this is a pretty this pretty big miracle thing that this pretty big miracle thing that this pretty big miracle thing that that's going on here. But he he that's going on here. But he he that's going on here. But he he recognizes his opponents in the in the recognizes his opponents in the in the recognizes his opponents in the in the argument. Um because of course the argument. Um because of course the argument. Um because of course the people on the Jansenist side are saying people on the Jansenist side are saying people on the Jansenist side are saying oh this is evidence that God's on our oh this is evidence that God's on our oh this is evidence that God's on our side. But the Jesuits say no no no this side. But the Jesuits say no no no this side. But the Jesuits say no no no this can't be right. This can't be right. can't be right. This can't be right. can't be right. This can't be right. This is maybe um sometimes God uses This is maybe um sometimes God uses This is maybe um sometimes God uses miracles to show that people are wrong. miracles to show that people are wrong. miracles to show that people are wrong. you know, and and use it all kinds of you know, and and use it all kinds of you know, and and use it all kinds of sort of weird ways to kind of argue sort of weird ways to kind of argue sort of weird ways to kind of argue against this. And Pascal, it strikes against this. And Pascal, it strikes against this. And Pascal, it strikes Pascal that that even faced by very Pascal that that even faced by very Pascal that that even faced by very strong evidence like a miracle, you strong evidence like a miracle, you strong evidence like a miracle, you know, you still don't believe um that know, you still don't believe um that know, you still don't believe um that and that and that that that doesn't and that and that that that doesn't and that and that that that doesn't really get you very far. And so he really get you very far. And so he really get you very far. And so he starts beginning and and in the course starts beginning and and in the course starts beginning and and in the course of writing about this, he starts writing of writing about this, he starts writing of writing about this, he starts writing about this idea that God hides himself.

about this idea that God hides himself. about this idea that God hides himself. He hides even in the most obvious He hides even in the most obvious He hides even in the most obvious places. Um and so this becomes a really places. Um and so this becomes a really places. Um and so this becomes a really a really important theme for Pascal. a really important theme for Pascal. a really important theme for Pascal. you know that that the god the god of you know that that the god the god of you know that that the god the god of Jesus Christ the god of the bible is a Jesus Christ the god of the bible is a Jesus Christ the god of the bible is a god who hides himself god who hides himself god who hides himself uh and he always hides himself he very uh and he always hides himself he very uh and he always hides himself he very rarely reveals himself fully so and key rarely reveals himself fully so and key rarely reveals himself fully so and key point in this is that pascal says that point in this is that pascal says that point in this is that pascal says that the place where god has revealed himself the place where god has revealed himself the place where god has revealed himself most fully as Christians believe is in most fully as Christians believe is in most fully as Christians believe is in the person of Jesus Christ he is the the person of Jesus Christ he is the the person of Jesus Christ he is the divine word made flesh but even there divine word made flesh but even there divine word made flesh but even there God is hidden because of course you God is hidden because of course you God is hidden because of course you could actually meet Jesus you could could actually meet Jesus you could could actually meet Jesus you could shake him by the hand you could look him shake him by the hand you could look him shake him by the hand you could look him in the eye and you could entirely miss in the eye and you could entirely miss in the eye and you could entirely miss the fact that you were talking to God. the fact that you were talking to God. the fact that you were talking to God. So God is hidden in the flesh of Jesus So God is hidden in the flesh of Jesus So God is hidden in the flesh of Jesus Christ. Even in the most obvious place Christ. Even in the most obvious place Christ. Even in the most obvious place where God is making himself obvious where God is making himself obvious where God is making himself obvious obvious make himself known to us. He's obvious make himself known to us. He's obvious make himself known to us. He's hidden there. He also goes on talking hidden there. He also goes on talking hidden there. He also goes on talking about you know God is hidden in the about you know God is hidden in the about you know God is hidden in the pages of the Bible. You can read the pages of the Bible. You can read the pages of the Bible. You can read the Bible and just read it as a historical Bible and just read it as a historical Bible and just read it as a historical text. You don't know it's the word of text. You don't know it's the word of text. You don't know it's the word of you might not see it's the word of God.

you might not see it's the word of God. you might not see it's the word of God. Pascal is a is a good Catholic. He also Pascal is a is a good Catholic. He also Pascal is a is a good Catholic. He also believes that in the bread and wine of believes that in the bread and wine of believes that in the bread and wine of of the um of the mass, the the the of the um of the mass, the the the of the um of the mass, the the the Eucharist, the Holy Communion, um God's Eucharist, the Holy Communion, um God's Eucharist, the Holy Communion, um God's presence, the presence of Jesus Christ presence, the presence of Jesus Christ presence, the presence of Jesus Christ is in the bread and the wine, but it's is in the bread and the wine, but it's is in the bread and the wine, but it's hidden. It's hidden under the form of hidden. It's hidden under the form of hidden. It's hidden under the form of bread and wine. It tastes like bread. It bread and wine. It tastes like bread. It bread and wine. It tastes like bread. It tastes like wine. Doesn't look any tastes like wine. Doesn't look any tastes like wine. Doesn't look any different. And so his point is that this different. And so his point is that this different. And so his point is that this this the God who reveals himself in this the God who reveals himself in this the God who reveals himself in Jesus Christ is a God who always hides Jesus Christ is a God who always hides Jesus Christ is a God who always hides himself from us. Um now this this I himself from us. Um now this this I himself from us. Um now this this I think is is significant for a number of think is is significant for a number of think is is significant for a number of ways. One is because as you say Colin ways. One is because as you say Colin ways. One is because as you say Colin the um you know the first atheist the um you know the first atheist the um you know the first atheist argument is okay where's God? You know argument is okay where's God? You know argument is okay where's God? You know you can't see him. Um he's obviously not you can't see him. Um he's obviously not you can't see him. Um he's obviously not here. Uh in which case you feel he here. Uh in which case you feel he here. Uh in which case you feel he doesn't exist. And then sometimes you doesn't exist. And then sometimes you doesn't exist. And then sometimes you know Christian apologists come on and know Christian apologists come on and know Christian apologists come on and say okay we can come up with all kinds say okay we can come up with all kinds say okay we can come up with all kinds of reasons that prove that he does of reasons that prove that he does of reasons that prove that he does exist. And Pascal's less convinced you exist. And Pascal's less convinced you exist. And Pascal's less convinced you can go down that line. Um but Pascal can go down that line. Um but Pascal can go down that line. Um but Pascal says that maybe there's a third option. says that maybe there's a third option. says that maybe there's a third option. It's not that he doesn't exist or that It's not that he doesn't exist or that It's not that he doesn't exist or that he is plainly manifest in the world, but he is plainly manifest in the world, but he is plainly manifest in the world, but he's present in a hidden form.

he's present in a hidden form. he's present in a hidden form. Um which is a really brilliant idea when Um which is a really brilliant idea when Um which is a really brilliant idea when you think about it that actually maybe you think about it that actually maybe you think about it that actually maybe God is is there hidden in particular God is is there hidden in particular God is is there hidden in particular places. Um and so then he asks a places. Um and so then he asks a places. Um and so then he asks a question, well why does God hide question, well why does God hide question, well why does God hide himself? And back to the quote you said himself? And back to the quote you said himself? And back to the quote you said earlier on, God hides himself from those earlier on, God hides himself from those earlier on, God hides himself from those who attest him, but he reveals himself who attest him, but he reveals himself who attest him, but he reveals himself to those who seek him. And so, in other to those who seek him. And so, in other to those who seek him. And so, in other words, what what Pascal says is God is words, what what Pascal says is God is words, what what Pascal says is God is God is the God of Jesus Christ is not God is the God of Jesus Christ is not God is the God of Jesus Christ is not interested in a casual relationship with interested in a casual relationship with interested in a casual relationship with a person where that person just sort of a person where that person just sort of a person where that person just sort of say, "Okay, I believe in you. Tick the say, "Okay, I believe in you. Tick the say, "Okay, I believe in you. Tick the box. Get on with my life." He's not box. Get on with my life." He's not box. Get on with my life." He's not interested in that kind of relationship. interested in that kind of relationship. interested in that kind of relationship. The God that we're dealing with is the The God that we're dealing with is the The God that we're dealing with is the God who made us, who loves us, who gave God who made us, who loves us, who gave God who made us, who loves us, who gave himself to us in Jesus Christ. The God himself to us in Jesus Christ. The God himself to us in Jesus Christ. The God who kind of, you know, again, who who who kind of, you know, again, who who who kind of, you know, again, who who who um is the object of of of of beauty who um is the object of of of of beauty who um is the object of of of of beauty and love and desire that that that the and love and desire that that that the and love and desire that that that the human heart is is looking for. And human heart is is looking for. And human heart is is looking for. And therefore, he hides himself for those therefore, he hides himself for those therefore, he hides himself for those who casually interested, who aren't who casually interested, who aren't who casually interested, who aren't really that bothered in looking into it.

really that bothered in looking into it. really that bothered in looking into it. But he only reveals himself to those who But he only reveals himself to those who But he only reveals himself to those who who really do seek him with all their who really do seek him with all their who really do seek him with all their heart. heart. heart. And that's Pascal's contention that God And that's Pascal's contention that God And that's Pascal's contention that God reveals himself in that way. So that I reveals himself in that way. So that I reveals himself in that way. So that I think is what Pascal talks about in the think is what Pascal talks about in the think is what Pascal talks about in the hidden God, which I think is a really hidden God, which I think is a really hidden God, which I think is a really sort of generative idea, one we're sort of generative idea, one we're sort of generative idea, one we're thinking about and and a very sort of thinking about and and a very sort of thinking about and and a very sort of powerful apologetic idea, I think, in a powerful apologetic idea, I think, in a powerful apologetic idea, I think, in a lot of our conversations. Well, I agree. lot of our conversations. Well, I agree. lot of our conversations. Well, I agree. And then connected to that, it's And then connected to that, it's And then connected to that, it's actually an argument of his that I actually an argument of his that I actually an argument of his that I picked up on in a book I wrote on the picked up on in a book I wrote on the picked up on in a book I wrote on the problem of evil. Where is God in the problem of evil. Where is God in the problem of evil. Where is God in the world with so much evil? Especially world with so much evil? Especially world with so much evil? Especially looking at the Holocaust and um and and looking at the Holocaust and um and and looking at the Holocaust and um and and engaging there with Ellie Visel's work engaging there with Ellie Visel's work engaging there with Ellie Visel's work in particular. And this is Pascal's in particular. And this is Pascal's in particular. And this is Pascal's argument that our misery is what points argument that our misery is what points argument that our misery is what points to our greatness. to our greatness. to our greatness. Tell us a little bit more about that. Tell us a little bit more about that. Tell us a little bit more about that. >> Yeah, he Pascal often thinks in threes. >> Yeah, he Pascal often thinks in threes. >> Yeah, he Pascal often thinks in threes. He often think he kind of polarizes two He often think he kind of polarizes two He often think he kind of polarizes two things and then says, you know, gets the things and then says, you know, gets the things and then says, you know, gets the middle. I mean he's talking about grace middle. I mean he's talking about grace middle. I mean he's talking about grace and how he kind of argues on the one and how he kind of argues on the one and how he kind of argues on the one hand the Calvinists on the other hand hand the Calvinists on the other hand hand the Calvinists on the other hand the Malinists the Jesuits and the true the Malinists the Jesuits and the true the Malinists the Jesuits and the true Augustinians in the middle. That's what Augustinians in the middle. That's what Augustinians in the middle. That's what he argues and he does something similar he argues and he does something similar he argues and he does something similar with this idea of of misery and with this idea of of misery and with this idea of of misery and greatness. And he he he's a great greatness. And he he he's a great greatness. And he he he's a great observer of people. He's a great observer of people. He's a great observer of people. He's a great observer of the human condition. And so observer of the human condition. And so observer of the human condition. And so he says when you look at humankind what he says when you look at humankind what he says when you look at humankind what the kind of mystery of of humanity is on the kind of mystery of of humanity is on the kind of mystery of of humanity is on the one hand we have this extraordinary the one hand we have this extraordinary the one hand we have this extraordinary greatness. We have this capacity to greatness. We have this capacity to greatness. We have this capacity to understand the world to um to discern understand the world to um to discern understand the world to um to discern how things work. We can look into the how things work. We can look into the how things work. We can look into the secrets of nature. We can understand

secrets of nature. We can understand secrets of nature. We can understand things like the existence of vacuums things like the existence of vacuums things like the existence of vacuums which is what he spent a lot of his time which is what he spent a lot of his time which is what he spent a lot of his time thinking about as a scientist. We can do thinking about as a scientist. We can do thinking about as a scientist. We can do geometric ma mathematical calculations. geometric ma mathematical calculations. geometric ma mathematical calculations. We can understand we have this We can understand we have this We can understand we have this extraordinary minds that are given to extraordinary minds that are given to extraordinary minds that are given to us. We have this capacity to to to us. We have this capacity to to to us. We have this capacity to to to speak. Language is an extraordinary gift speak. Language is an extraordinary gift speak. Language is an extraordinary gift that we we have. We have this ability to that we we have. We have this ability to that we we have. We have this ability to love one another to to be kind to one love one another to to be kind to one love one another to to be kind to one another. So there's a greatness in the another. So there's a greatness in the another. So there's a greatness in the humankind that that is [clears throat] humankind that that is [clears throat] humankind that that is [clears throat] beyond any other animal you know form beyond any other animal you know form beyond any other animal you know form within the world. But on the other hand within the world. But on the other hand within the world. But on the other hand there is this this weakness this frailty there is this this weakness this frailty there is this this weakness this frailty this misery this capacity that we have this misery this capacity that we have this misery this capacity that we have to hate each other. He says all men to hate each other. He says all men to hate each other. He says all men naturally hate each other. That's one of naturally hate each other. That's one of naturally hate each other. That's one of his lines that underneath there's a kind his lines that underneath there's a kind his lines that underneath there's a kind of competitive competitiveness in the of competitive competitiveness in the of competitive competitiveness in the human heart um that is always sets human heart um that is always sets human heart um that is always sets ourselves against other people. We have ourselves against other people. We have ourselves against other people. We have this also this capacity to hurt one this also this capacity to hurt one this also this capacity to hurt one another to damage one another to to um another to damage one another to to um another to damage one another to to um to you know display great cruelty to to you know display great cruelty to to you know display great cruelty to display great um great ignorance and so display great um great ignorance and so display great um great ignorance and so on. So he always plays again. How do you on. So he always plays again. How do you on. So he always plays again. How do you how do you how do you play this this how do you how do you play this this how do you how do you play this this this kind of mystery of humankind that this kind of mystery of humankind that this kind of mystery of humankind that we are he says we are the glory and the we are he says we are the glory and the we are he says we are the glory and the refues of the universe.

refues of the universe. refues of the universe. We're the glory and the refu the glory We're the glory and the refu the glory We're the glory and the refu the glory the greatness of humanity but we're the the greatness of humanity but we're the the greatness of humanity but we're the refuge of the universe. We are capable refuge of the universe. We are capable refuge of the universe. We are capable of more more beauty and and creativity of more more beauty and and creativity of more more beauty and and creativity and scientific exploration than any and scientific exploration than any and scientific exploration than any other animal but we're also other animal but we're also other animal but we're also capable of greater cruelty than other capable of greater cruelty than other capable of greater cruelty than other any other animal as well. So, how do you any other animal as well. So, how do you any other animal as well. So, how do you explain this this thing this misery? Um, explain this this thing this misery? Um, explain this this thing this misery? Um, and he says, well, it's it's it's it's and he says, well, it's it's it's it's and he says, well, it's it's it's it's the thing that explains this, and again, the thing that explains this, and again, the thing that explains this, and again, this is a little bit back to Augustine, this is a little bit back to Augustine, this is a little bit back to Augustine, is the Christian understanding of human is the Christian understanding of human is the Christian understanding of human beings as both created and fallen. That beings as both created and fallen. That beings as both created and fallen. That we are created in the image of God, who we are created in the image of God, who we are created in the image of God, who is the creator, who is the source of all is the creator, who is the source of all is the creator, who is the source of all beauty and truth and order and goodness. beauty and truth and order and goodness. beauty and truth and order and goodness. And because we are created in that And because we are created in that And because we are created in that image, we have this capacity to image, we have this capacity to image, we have this capacity to understand these things. But we have understand these things. But we have understand these things. But we have deeply fallen from that place and deeply fallen from that place and deeply fallen from that place and therefore we kind of wander around in therefore we kind of wander around in therefore we kind of wander around in this world looking for our place within this world looking for our place within this world looking for our place within the world not sure of anything the world not sure of anything the world not sure of anything particular and how and he talks about particular and how and he talks about particular and how and he talks about how um you know we have laws that seem how um you know we have laws that seem how um you know we have laws that seem to differ from one country to another.

to differ from one country to another. to differ from one country to another. It just seems to be custom. It's not It just seems to be custom. It's not It just seems to be custom. It's not nothing kind of you know sure about it. nothing kind of you know sure about it. nothing kind of you know sure about it. You know we we seem to be unable to find You know we we seem to be unable to find You know we we seem to be unable to find a sure place to stand. And so um this a sure place to stand. And so um this a sure place to stand. And so um this misery and greatness he thinks is only misery and greatness he thinks is only misery and greatness he thinks is only resolved by the doctrine of the creation resolved by the doctrine of the creation resolved by the doctrine of the creation by the the human beings are created in by the the human beings are created in by the the human beings are created in the image of God and yet deeply fallen the image of God and yet deeply fallen the image of God and yet deeply fallen and then uh redeemed by Christ because and then uh redeemed by Christ because and then uh redeemed by Christ because it's not just a diagnosis. It's actually it's not just a diagnosis. It's actually it's not just a diagnosis. It's actually something that points to to redemption. something that points to to redemption. something that points to to redemption. And so in some ways you know our And so in some ways you know our And so in some ways you know our greatness our misery as he says is greatness our misery as he says is greatness our misery as he says is somehow something that paradoxically somehow something that paradoxically somehow something that paradoxically points to our greatness. Uh so he talks points to our greatness. Uh so he talks points to our greatness. Uh so he talks about happiness for example. He says, about happiness for example. He says, about happiness for example. He says, you know, why why is it that we we have you know, why why is it that we we have you know, why why is it that we we have this universal desire for happiness? this universal desire for happiness? this universal desire for happiness? Every human single human being wants to Every human single human being wants to Every human single human being wants to be happy. No exceptions. Even the ones be happy. No exceptions. Even the ones be happy. No exceptions. Even the ones who want to be miserable want to be who want to be miserable want to be who want to be miserable want to be miserable because being miserable makes miserable because being miserable makes miserable because being miserable makes them happy. So this is universal desire them happy. So this is universal desire them happy. So this is universal desire for happiness. And yet he says happiness for happiness. And yet he says happiness for happiness. And yet he says happiness always eludes us. It always slips always eludes us. It always slips always eludes us. It always slips through our fingers. You know, when we through our fingers. You know, when we through our fingers. You know, when we grasp a moment of happiness, it's gone grasp a moment of happiness, it's gone grasp a moment of happiness, it's gone just like that. You know, we have a just like that. You know, we have a just like that. You know, we have a moment of absolute joy. you know, maybe moment of absolute joy. you know, maybe moment of absolute joy. you know, maybe you're in a, you know, seeing some you're in a, you know, seeing some you're in a, you know, seeing some beautiful sunsets or you're in a concert beautiful sunsets or you're in a concert beautiful sunsets or you're in a concert and the music is sublime or there's some and the music is sublime or there's some and the music is sublime or there's some sporting brilliance or whatever. We have sporting brilliance or whatever. We have sporting brilliance or whatever. We have a moment of joy and happiness, but it a moment of joy and happiness, but it a moment of joy and happiness, but it slips through our fingers so quickly.

slips through our fingers so quickly. slips through our fingers so quickly. And then he says, well, this this this And then he says, well, this this this And then he says, well, this this this sense of loss, this sense of this this sense of loss, this sense of this this sense of loss, this sense of this this aching, y longing for something beyond aching, y longing for something beyond aching, y longing for something beyond that we occasionally grasp. We don't that we occasionally grasp. We don't that we occasionally grasp. We don't where does that that come from? And he where does that that come from? And he where does that that come from? And he says, might it come from the fact that says, might it come from the fact that says, might it come from the fact that we once knew what happiness was? that in we once knew what happiness was? that in we once knew what happiness was? that in the beginning of all things we were in the beginning of all things we were in the beginning of all things we were in the presence of a God for whom we were the presence of a God for whom we were the presence of a God for whom we were made and who showered us with a love made and who showered us with a love made and who showered us with a love beyond our imagination. We knew what beyond our imagination. We knew what beyond our imagination. We knew what happiness was. And so he says that he happiness was. And so he says that he happiness was. And so he says that he has this this this remarkable image and has this this this remarkable image and has this this this remarkable image and he says um he says um he says um uh you know no one uh you know no one uh you know no one no one no one ever complained that they no one no one ever complained that they no one no one ever complained that they don't have three eyes but the man who is don't have three eyes but the man who is don't have three eyes but the man who is blind is inconsolable. blind is inconsolable. blind is inconsolable. In other words, the point is you only In other words, the point is you only In other words, the point is you only mourn the loss of something that you mourn the loss of something that you mourn the loss of something that you once had. You know, we never had three once had. You know, we never had three once had. You know, we never had three eyes, so we don't complain about the eyes, so we don't complain about the eyes, so we don't complain about the fact we don't have three eyes, but we fact we don't have three eyes, but we fact we don't have three eyes, but we kind of do have eyes. And therefore, if kind of do have eyes. And therefore, if kind of do have eyes. And therefore, if you lose your sight, you you mourn the you lose your sight, you you mourn the you lose your sight, you you mourn the loss of that sight. And his point is loss of that sight. And his point is loss of that sight. And his point is that maybe our yearning for happiness, that maybe our yearning for happiness, that maybe our yearning for happiness, our longing for happiness, even our our longing for happiness, even our our longing for happiness, even our inability to find it, our misery, if you inability to find it, our misery, if you inability to find it, our misery, if you like, is a sign that we once had it.

like, is a sign that we once had it. like, is a sign that we once had it. That we were made for this God who was That we were made for this God who was That we were made for this God who was who made us in the first place. So who made us in the first place. So who made us in the first place. So that's I think what's going on in that that's I think what's going on in that that's I think what's going on in that that sort of idea of Pascal's that sort of idea of Pascal's that sort of idea of Pascal's >> sounds like one of your Oxford >> sounds like one of your Oxford >> sounds like one of your Oxford predecessors CS Lewis as well. predecessors CS Lewis as well. predecessors CS Lewis as well. >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He has the >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He has the >> Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. He has the same idea of joy which he calls um I same idea of joy which he calls um I same idea of joy which he calls um I mean Pascal doesn't talk about joy in mean Pascal doesn't talk about joy in mean Pascal doesn't talk about joy in the kind same sort of way but I think the kind same sort of way but I think the kind same sort of way but I think they both have this sense of a yearning they both have this sense of a yearning they both have this sense of a yearning a longing for something beyond that is a longing for something beyond that is a longing for something beyond that is deep within the human heart and and that deep within the human heart and and that deep within the human heart and and that um you know that can only be satisfied um you know that can only be satisfied um you know that can only be satisfied by by God and and if you like Pascal has by by God and and if you like Pascal has by by God and and if you like Pascal has the same similar sort of idea in a diff the same similar sort of idea in a diff the same similar sort of idea in a diff in a different kind of context and so um in a different kind of context and so um in a different kind of context and so um that's what he um you know what Pascal that's what he um you know what Pascal that's what he um you know what Pascal says and he has this just says and he has this just says and he has this just famous line where you know Pascal says famous line where you know Pascal says famous line where you know Pascal says you know um well he he writes about this you know um well he he writes about this you know um well he he writes about this in ways that very similar to kind of in ways that very similar to kind of in ways that very similar to kind of Lewis and and Lewis and and Lewis and and um and Augusta and he says you know what um and Augusta and he says you know what um and Augusta and he says you know what else does this craving this helplessness else does this craving this helplessness else does this craving this helplessness proclaim that there was once in man a proclaim that there was once in man a proclaim that there was once in man a true happiness of which all that now true happiness of which all that now true happiness of which all that now remains is the empty print and trace and remains is the empty print and trace and remains is the empty print and trace and this we try in vain to fill with this we try in vain to fill with this we try in vain to fill with everything around us seeking in things everything around us seeking in things everything around us seeking in things that are not there the help we cannot that are not there the help we cannot that are not there the help we cannot find in those that are But none can help find in those that are But none can help find in those that are But none can help because this infinite abyss can only be because this infinite abyss can only be because this infinite abyss can only be filled with an infinite and immutable filled with an infinite and immutable filled with an infinite and immutable object. In other words, by God himself.

object. In other words, by God himself. object. In other words, by God himself. So that's kind of very Louisian, very So that's kind of very Louisian, very So that's kind of very Louisian, very Austinian, but it's pure Pascal. So Austinian, but it's pure Pascal. So Austinian, but it's pure Pascal. So we've come to that portion where we have we've come to that portion where we have we've come to that portion where we have to talk about the wager. Get to talk to talk about the wager. Get to talk to talk about the wager. Get to talk about the wager. Um widely discussed uh about the wager. Um widely discussed uh about the wager. Um widely discussed uh seemingly almost universally seemingly almost universally seemingly almost universally misunderstood. [laughter] misunderstood. [laughter] misunderstood. [laughter] Um, if I understand you correctly, Um, if I understand you correctly, Um, if I understand you correctly, you're underscoring something from you're underscoring something from you're underscoring something from Pascal that I actually covered in an Pascal that I actually covered in an Pascal that I actually covered in an earlier episode of Gospelbound with your earlier episode of Gospelbound with your earlier episode of Gospelbound with your neighbor Alistister McGrath. That neighbor Alistister McGrath. That neighbor Alistister McGrath. That unbelief is a moral phenomenon more than unbelief is a moral phenomenon more than unbelief is a moral phenomenon more than an intellectual one, understanding you an intellectual one, understanding you an intellectual one, understanding you correctly. Yeah, I think that's right. I correctly. Yeah, I think that's right. I correctly. Yeah, I think that's right. I think that is what think that is what think that is what uh what Pascal thinks. It's it's a uh what Pascal thinks. It's it's a uh what Pascal thinks. It's it's a matter of the heart, not the mind matter of the heart, not the mind matter of the heart, not the mind primarily. Um and and the wager is it's primarily. Um and and the wager is it's primarily. Um and and the wager is it's probably the argument for which Pascal probably the argument for which Pascal probably the argument for which Pascal is most famous. I mean many people who is most famous. I mean many people who is most famous. I mean many people who don't know much about Pascal will don't know much about Pascal will don't know much about Pascal will probably heard of Pascal's wager as you probably heard of Pascal's wager as you probably heard of Pascal's wager as you say. They probably misunderstand it. say. They probably misunderstand it. say. They probably misunderstand it. Most people do. It's an argument that's Most people do. It's an argument that's Most people do. It's an argument that's been criticized in all kinds of ways been criticized in all kinds of ways been criticized in all kinds of ways philosophically. Um but I I actually philosophically. Um but I I actually philosophically. Um but I I actually think most of the philosophical think most of the philosophical think most of the philosophical objections to the wager actually miss objections to the wager actually miss objections to the wager actually miss the point of it. Uh because people think the point of it. Uh because people think the point of it. Uh because people think it's an argument that is trying to it's an argument that is trying to it's an argument that is trying to strongarm you into belief. Um and it's strongarm you into belief. Um and it's strongarm you into belief. Um and it's not so if I can kind of go through the not so if I can kind of go through the not so if I can kind of go through the wager and try to explain kind of how it wager and try to explain kind of how it wager and try to explain kind of how it works. Um I guess the background to and works. Um I guess the background to and works. Um I guess the background to and it comes in in the pon as as um as it comes in in the pon as as um as it comes in in the pon as as um as listeners may know the pon is a listeners may know the pon is a listeners may know the pon is a collection of um sayings of Pascal. He collection of um sayings of Pascal. He collection of um sayings of Pascal. He towards the end of his life after the

towards the end of his life after the towards the end of his life after the night of fire one of the projects he set night of fire one of the projects he set night of fire one of the projects he set himself was to write a great apology for himself was to write a great apology for himself was to write a great apology for the Christian faith. Um at least most the Christian faith. Um at least most the Christian faith. Um at least most scholars think he was. He was trying to scholars think he was. He was trying to scholars think he was. He was trying to do that. Um, and he would write down do that. Um, and he would write down do that. Um, and he would write down notes. He would write, some of them are notes. He would write, some of them are notes. He would write, some of them are just a line, some of them are just a line, some of them are just a line, some of them are paragraphs, some of them are kind of paragraphs, some of them are kind of paragraphs, some of them are kind of slightly longer essays. And one day he slightly longer essays. And one day he slightly longer essays. And one day he was going to work these into a kind of a was going to work these into a kind of a was going to work these into a kind of a book of some kind to present Christian book of some kind to present Christian book of some kind to present Christian faith to the sort of skeptics of his of faith to the sort of skeptics of his of faith to the sort of skeptics of his of his day. Um, and his friends who were his day. Um, and his friends who were his day. Um, and his friends who were kind of sophisticated, you know, nominal kind of sophisticated, you know, nominal kind of sophisticated, you know, nominal Catholics but not really that interested Catholics but not really that interested Catholics but not really that interested in God. Um, and he never finished it. He in God. Um, and he never finished it. He in God. Um, and he never finished it. He died age 39 and so he never finished his died age 39 and so he never finished his died age 39 and so he never finished his book. And so they found these notes at book. And so they found these notes at book. And so they found these notes at the end of his his life. And one of the end of his his life. And one of the end of his his life. And one of these notes, one of the longer ones is these notes, one of the longer ones is these notes, one of the longer ones is is this text called the wager. And uh so is this text called the wager. And uh so is this text called the wager. And uh so scholars have always tried to work out scholars have always tried to work out scholars have always tried to work out where would it have come. Would it have where would it have come. Would it have where would it have come. Would it have come in the beginning, in the middle, at come in the beginning, in the middle, at come in the beginning, in the middle, at the end? Well, um I kind of think it the end? Well, um I kind of think it the end? Well, um I kind of think it would have come in the middle, but you would have come in the middle, but you would have come in the middle, but you know, we can go into that later. But the know, we can go into that later. But the know, we can go into that later. But the way the argument works is is this and way the argument works is is this and way the argument works is is this and you have to to to understand by you have to to to understand by you have to to to understand by background. Pascal had done this work on background. Pascal had done this work on background. Pascal had done this work on probability.

probability. probability. uh he which was a kind of mathematical uh he which was a kind of mathematical uh he which was a kind of mathematical puzzle and he'd done some work with puzzle and he'd done some work with puzzle and he'd done some work with Pierre Ferma the great mathematician you Pierre Ferma the great mathematician you Pierre Ferma the great mathematician you may have heard of Ferma's last theorem may have heard of Ferma's last theorem may have heard of Ferma's last theorem um he was a contemporary of Pascal bit um he was a contemporary of Pascal bit um he was a contemporary of Pascal bit older than Pascal they never actually older than Pascal they never actually older than Pascal they never actually met but they they wrote about this thing met but they they wrote about this thing met but they they wrote about this thing of probability and uh particularly they of probability and uh particularly they of probability and uh particularly they they they addressed a problem a classic they they addressed a problem a classic they they addressed a problem a classic problem in probability this is the problem in probability this is the problem in probability this is the beginnings of probability theory which beginnings of probability theory which beginnings of probability theory which was if you've got a game um maybe you was if you've got a game um maybe you was if you've got a game um maybe you got a game of baseball or American got a game of baseball or American got a game of baseball or American football or soccer or whatever it might football or soccer or whatever it might football or soccer or whatever it might be uh and people are bet on the outcome be uh and people are bet on the outcome be uh and people are bet on the outcome and uh halfway through the game it has and uh halfway through the game it has and uh halfway through the game it has to be interrupted. You know, there's a to be interrupted. You know, there's a to be interrupted. You know, there's a storm or there's a weather and it can't storm or there's a weather and it can't storm or there's a weather and it can't finish. How do you allocate the stake um finish. How do you allocate the stake um finish. How do you allocate the stake um if the game isn't finished? And many if the game isn't finished? And many if the game isn't finished? And many people at the time said, "Well, you people at the time said, "Well, you people at the time said, "Well, you can't because it's just a game of can't because it's just a game of can't because it's just a game of chance." But Pascal and Fair said, chance." But Pascal and Fair said, chance." But Pascal and Fair said, "Well, actually, you could actually "Well, actually, you could actually "Well, actually, you could actually allocate. You could find out a way to allocate. You could find out a way to allocate. You could find out a way to allocate the stake." And they worked out allocate the stake." And they worked out allocate the stake." And they worked out a a kind of a mathematics of a a kind of a mathematics of a a kind of a mathematics of probability. Now that's sort of the probability. Now that's sort of the probability. Now that's sort of the background to this and what do you do background to this and what do you do background to this and what do you do about an unfinished game and in this about an unfinished game and in this about an unfinished game and in this argument Pascal starts by saying well in argument Pascal starts by saying well in argument Pascal starts by saying well in a way life is like that life is kind of a way life is like that life is kind of a way life is like that life is kind of like an unfinished game. At the end we like an unfinished game. At the end we like an unfinished game. At the end we will discover whether there's a god or will discover whether there's a god or will discover whether there's a god or whether there isn't a god. Um whether there isn't a god. Um whether there isn't a god. Um one one or the other is true and to be one one or the other is true and to be one one or the other is true and to be honest we don't entirely know for sure honest we don't entirely know for sure honest we don't entirely know for sure for sure within this world. We don't for sure within this world. We don't for sure within this world. We don't know the ending. Um, so life is like know the ending. Um, so life is like know the ending. Um, so life is like that and he has a he has a conversation that and he has a he has a conversation that and he has a he has a conversation with a friend and I think the wager with a friend and I think the wager with a friend and I think the wager would have come in the in the kind of would have come in the in the kind of would have come in the in the kind of context of a conversation and he says to

context of a conversation and he says to context of a conversation and he says to this friend who is a probably an this friend who is a probably an this friend who is a probably an unbeliever, someone who is poised unbeliever, someone who is poised unbeliever, someone who is poised between belief and and an unbelief, not between belief and and an unbelief, not between belief and and an unbelief, not quite sure which way to go. Um, and uh, quite sure which way to go. Um, and uh, quite sure which way to go. Um, and uh, he says, "Well, you know, there's a he says, "Well, you know, there's a he says, "Well, you know, there's a there's a coin being spun at the far there's a coin being spun at the far there's a coin being spun at the far edge of the universe. It'll come down edge of the universe. It'll come down edge of the universe. It'll come down heads or tails. God exists or God heads or tails. God exists or God heads or tails. God exists or God doesn't exist. Which way you which way doesn't exist. Which way you which way doesn't exist. Which way you which way are you going to bet?" So the guy says, are you going to bet?" So the guy says, are you going to bet?" So the guy says, "Well, well, do I have to bet?" Surely I "Well, well, do I have to bet?" Surely I "Well, well, do I have to bet?" Surely I could just be agnostic. And Pascal says, could just be agnostic. And Pascal says, could just be agnostic. And Pascal says, "No, you can't. You have to bet. In "No, you can't. You have to bet. In "No, you can't. You have to bet. In fact, you've already bet because you're fact, you've already bet because you're fact, you've already bet because you're already living your life as if God already living your life as if God already living your life as if God exists or as if God doesn't exist. So exists or as if God doesn't exist. So exists or as if God doesn't exist. So you've already bet. The only question is you've already bet. The only question is you've already bet. The only question is whether you're going to change your bet whether you're going to change your bet whether you're going to change your bet at this stage." Um, so he says, you at this stage." Um, so he says, you at this stage." Um, so he says, you know, you're already on, you already know, you're already on, you already know, you're already on, you already embarked on the journey. You're already embarked on the journey. You're already embarked on the journey. You're already living as if God exists or doesn't. So living as if God exists or doesn't. So living as if God exists or doesn't. So then the guy comes back to Pascal and then the guy comes back to Pascal and then the guy comes back to Pascal and says, "Well, okay, is there any evidence says, "Well, okay, is there any evidence says, "Well, okay, is there any evidence to point me one way or the other uh on to point me one way or the other uh on to point me one way or the other uh on this this this really important choice?" this this this really important choice?" this this this really important choice?" And Pascal says, "Well, there is some And Pascal says, "Well, there is some And Pascal says, "Well, there is some evidence, but not enough to convince evidence, but not enough to convince evidence, but not enough to convince you." In other words, back to his point you." In other words, back to his point you." In other words, back to his point about, you know, um argumentation, about, you know, um argumentation, about, you know, um argumentation, philosophical argumentation doesn't get philosophical argumentation doesn't get philosophical argumentation doesn't get you very far. It's not conclusive. It you very far. It's not conclusive. It you very far. It's not conclusive. It doesn't give you kind of 100% proof on doesn't give you kind of 100% proof on doesn't give you kind of 100% proof on this because we make decisions by our this because we make decisions by our this because we make decisions by our heart, not not not by our heads and so heart, not not not by our heads and so heart, not not not by our heads and so on. So then the guy says, "Well, what do on. So then the guy says, "Well, what do on. So then the guy says, "Well, what do I do then if I if there's no hard and I do then if I if there's no hard and I do then if I if there's no hard and fast 100% proof either way?" And Pascal fast 100% proof either way?" And Pascal fast 100% proof either way?" And Pascal says, "Okay, well, let's work out the says, "Okay, well, let's work out the says, "Okay, well, let's work out the probability in this unfinished game."

probability in this unfinished game." probability in this unfinished game." And he says, "Well, if you know, if you And he says, "Well, if you know, if you And he says, "Well, if you know, if you bet that God doesn't exist, and you're bet that God doesn't exist, and you're bet that God doesn't exist, and you're right that God doesn't exist. Well, when right that God doesn't exist. Well, when right that God doesn't exist. Well, when you die, you haven't gained that much. you die, you haven't gained that much. you die, you haven't gained that much. Maybe a few more years of pleasure in Maybe a few more years of pleasure in Maybe a few more years of pleasure in this life before going into eternal this life before going into eternal this life before going into eternal nothingness, and so on." If you bet that nothingness, and so on." If you bet that nothingness, and so on." If you bet that God doesn't exist and you're wrong, God doesn't exist and you're wrong, God doesn't exist and you're wrong, well, that's bad news because there's well, that's bad news because there's well, that's bad news because there's the prospect of eternal damnation. the prospect of eternal damnation. the prospect of eternal damnation. That's not good. But on the other hand, That's not good. But on the other hand, That's not good. But on the other hand, if you bet that God exists and you're if you bet that God exists and you're if you bet that God exists and you're wrong, well, again, you haven't lost too wrong, well, again, you haven't lost too wrong, well, again, you haven't lost too much. Maybe a few years of self-denial much. Maybe a few years of self-denial much. Maybe a few years of self-denial in this world, then going into in this world, then going into in this world, then going into nothingness, you haven't lost a great nothingness, you haven't lost a great nothingness, you haven't lost a great deal. But if you bet God exists and deal. But if you bet God exists and deal. But if you bet God exists and you're right, you stand to gain eternal you're right, you stand to gain eternal you're right, you stand to gain eternal bliss. So that's it sounds very kind of bliss. So that's it sounds very kind of bliss. So that's it sounds very kind of mechanical the argument, but that's kind mechanical the argument, but that's kind mechanical the argument, but that's kind of what he what he says. And this is of what he what he says. And this is of what he what he says. And this is where the point comes. People think where the point comes. People think where the point comes. People think that's meant to be an argument, you that's meant to be an argument, you that's meant to be an argument, you know, to to persuade people to believe. know, to to persuade people to believe. know, to to persuade people to believe. And and you know, if it is that, you And and you know, if it is that, you And and you know, if it is that, you could think, well, it's a bit it's a bit could think, well, it's a bit it's a bit could think, well, it's a bit it's a bit mercenary. It's a bit self-interested. mercenary. It's a bit self-interested. mercenary. It's a bit self-interested. It's not a very good argument. But It's not a very good argument. But It's not a very good argument. But that's not the way Pascal argues. His that's not the way Pascal argues. His that's not the way Pascal argues. His point is this, that if you were a point is this, that if you were a point is this, that if you were a betting man or a woman, you'd always bet betting man or a woman, you'd always bet betting man or a woman, you'd always bet on God because the odds are in favor of on God because the odds are in favor of on God because the odds are in favor of that. You know, you got a you got a that. You know, you got a you got a that. You know, you got a you got a stake to play the rest of your life.

stake to play the rest of your life. stake to play the rest of your life. You'd always bet on God because the odds You'd always bet on God because the odds You'd always bet on God because the odds are it's it's the odds that make people are it's it's the odds that make people are it's it's the odds that make people go into the the lottery all the time. go into the the lottery all the time. go into the the lottery all the time. You know, you stand to gain a great You know, you stand to gain a great You know, you stand to gain a great deal. If you're wrong, you stand to lose deal. If you're wrong, you stand to lose deal. If you're wrong, you stand to lose not very much. If if if you're right, not very much. If if if you're right, not very much. If if if you're right, you stand to get a great deal. If you're you stand to get a great deal. If you're you stand to get a great deal. If you're wrong, you don't lose that much. So, you wrong, you don't lose that much. So, you wrong, you don't lose that much. So, you if you were betting, if you were being if you were betting, if you were being if you were betting, if you were being rational about it, you'd always bet on rational about it, you'd always bet on rational about it, you'd always bet on God. God. God. And this is this is the the kind of And this is this is the the kind of And this is this is the the kind of point he say he's saying to this person, point he say he's saying to this person, point he say he's saying to this person, the rational thing would always be to the rational thing would always be to the rational thing would always be to bet on God. Now the other guy comes back bet on God. Now the other guy comes back bet on God. Now the other guy comes back and says, "Ah, yeah, but I can't make and says, "Ah, yeah, but I can't make and says, "Ah, yeah, but I can't make myself believe something I can't myself believe something I can't myself believe something I can't believe." And that's where Pascal says, believe." And that's where Pascal says, believe." And that's where Pascal says, "Yeah, I get that. I absolutely get "Yeah, I get that. I absolutely get "Yeah, I get that. I absolutely get that." But then he says the killer lion, that." But then he says the killer lion, that." But then he says the killer lion, he says, "At least get it into your head he says, "At least get it into your head he says, "At least get it into your head that if you're unable to believe, it's that if you're unable to believe, it's that if you're unable to believe, it's because of your passions since reason because of your passions since reason because of your passions since reason impels you to believe and yet you cannot impels you to believe and yet you cannot impels you to believe and yet you cannot do so." So his point is that you the the do so." So his point is that you the the do so." So his point is that you the the real resistance to faith is not real resistance to faith is not real resistance to faith is not primarily intellectual, it's moral, as primarily intellectual, it's moral, as primarily intellectual, it's moral, as you were saying. is that you don't want you were saying. is that you don't want you were saying. is that you don't want to believe. It's not a rational thing to believe. It's not a rational thing to believe. It's not a rational thing because if you were really being because if you were really being because if you were really being rational, you'd always bet on God. But rational, you'd always bet on God. But rational, you'd always bet on God. But the fact you can't do that shows that the fact you can't do that shows that the fact you can't do that shows that it's a different thing altogether. So it's a different thing altogether. So it's a different thing altogether. So then the guy says, "Well, well, what do then the guy says, "Well, well, what do then the guy says, "Well, well, what do I do then?" And that's when Pascal says, I do then?" And that's when Pascal says, I do then?" And that's when Pascal says, "Okay, let me give you an answer." He "Okay, let me give you an answer." He "Okay, let me give you an answer." He says, "Concentrate not on convincing says, "Concentrate not on convincing says, "Concentrate not on convincing yourself by multiplying proofs of God's yourself by multiplying proofs of God's yourself by multiplying proofs of God's existence, but by diminishing your existence, but by diminishing your existence, but by diminishing your passions." Um, he says, "Learn from passions." Um, he says, "Learn from passions." Um, he says, "Learn from those who were once bound by you and who those who were once bound by you and who those who were once bound by you and who now wager all they have." He says, and now wager all they have." He says, and now wager all they have." He says, and he gives this this this this thing. He he gives this this this this thing. He he gives this this this this thing. He says, 'These people like me, he says, says, 'These people like me, he says, says, 'These people like me, he says, Pascal, they behaved as if they did

Pascal, they behaved as if they did Pascal, they behaved as if they did believe. In other words, they went about believe. In other words, they went about believe. In other words, they went about their life acting as if God existed and their life acting as if God existed and their life acting as if God existed and that God was real, that God was the God that God was real, that God was the God that God was real, that God was the God of Jesus Christ even before they of Jesus Christ even before they of Jesus Christ even before they believed it was true. Um, and so I think believed it was true. Um, and so I think believed it was true. Um, and so I think what he would say to us is if you're in what he would say to us is if you're in what he would say to us is if you're in that position, not sure whether God that position, not sure whether God that position, not sure whether God exists, not sure God doesn't exist, exists, not sure God doesn't exist, exists, not sure God doesn't exist, doesn't exist, well, first of all, doesn't exist, well, first of all, doesn't exist, well, first of all, reason. It's not your first of all reason. It's not your first of all reason. It's not your first of all realize it's not your reason that's realize it's not your reason that's realize it's not your reason that's that's that's resisting God. It's that's that's resisting God. It's that's that's resisting God. It's something else. It's your heart. If you something else. It's your heart. If you something else. It's your heart. If you and but if you want to put yourself in and but if you want to put yourself in and but if you want to put yourself in the position where God might touch you the position where God might touch you the position where God might touch you by his grace, well, go into each day by his grace, well, go into each day by his grace, well, go into each day acting as if it's true, even before acting as if it's true, even before acting as if it's true, even before you're sure it's true. You know, read you're sure it's true. You know, read you're sure it's true. You know, read the Bible as if it really is God's word the Bible as if it really is God's word the Bible as if it really is God's word speaking to you. Treat every person you speaking to you. Treat every person you speaking to you. Treat every person you meet that day as if they are an image of meet that day as if they are an image of meet that day as if they are an image of God given to you in that moment to be God given to you in that moment to be God given to you in that moment to be treated with reverence and with love. Uh treated with reverence and with love. Uh treated with reverence and with love. Uh pray to God as if he is really there. go pray to God as if he is really there. go pray to God as if he is really there. go to church as if it's the place where you to church as if it's the place where you to church as if it's the place where you will meet with the people of God and so will meet with the people of God and so will meet with the people of God and so on and in time Pascal thinks it will on and in time Pascal thinks it will on and in time Pascal thinks it will dawn upon you that this really is true dawn upon you that this really is true dawn upon you that this really is true and it will touch your heart as well. So and it will touch your heart as well. So and it will touch your heart as well. So that I think is how the the wager works. that I think is how the the wager works. that I think is how the the wager works. >> Pascal also innovator in social >> Pascal also innovator in social >> Pascal also innovator in social psychology psychology psychology >> because you can you see a whole lot of >> because you can you see a whole lot of >> because you can you see a whole lot of Jonathan height Jonathan height Jonathan height >> in Pascal's work >> in Pascal's work >> in Pascal's work >> as well. What when I read Jonathan Yates >> as well. What when I read Jonathan Yates >> as well. What when I read Jonathan Yates Height's book, I kind of thought of Height's book, I kind of thought of Height's book, I kind of thought of Pascal because he again has that same Pascal because he again has that same Pascal because he again has that same sense that this is how we make our sense that this is how we make our sense that this is how we make our decisions that our key decisions are decisions that our key decisions are decisions that our key decisions are made are made with the heart, not the made are made with the heart, not the made are made with the heart, not the head.

head. head. >> Yeah. Whether it's the righteous mind or >> Yeah. Whether it's the righteous mind or >> Yeah. Whether it's the righteous mind or going back to the, you know, the going back to the, you know, the going back to the, you know, the happiness hypothesis, all that sort of happiness hypothesis, all that sort of happiness hypothesis, all that sort of stuff with with height, it's it's very stuff with with height, it's it's very stuff with with height, it's it's very much downstream from Pascal and and much downstream from Pascal and and much downstream from Pascal and and Augustine there. Um, let's talk about Augustine there. Um, let's talk about Augustine there. Um, let's talk about another uh, this is in very foundational another uh, this is in very foundational another uh, this is in very foundational to the work that we do at the Keller to the work that we do at the Keller to the work that we do at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. One of Center for Cultural Apologetics. One of Center for Cultural Apologetics. One of Tim Keller's favorite sections from Tim Keller's favorite sections from Tim Keller's favorite sections from Pascal. Here's the quote. Men despise Pascal. Here's the quote. Men despise Pascal. Here's the quote. Men despise religion. They hate it and are afraid. religion. They hate it and are afraid. religion. They hate it and are afraid. It may be true. To cure this, we have to It may be true. To cure this, we have to It may be true. To cure this, we have to first show that religion is not at all first show that religion is not at all first show that religion is not at all contrary to reason. It is worthy of contrary to reason. It is worthy of contrary to reason. It is worthy of reverence and respect. Next, make it reverence and respect. Next, make it reverence and respect. Next, make it attractive. Make good when men wish it attractive. Make good when men wish it attractive. Make good when men wish it were true. and then show that it is were true. and then show that it is were true. and then show that it is true. Tell us a little bit more about true. Tell us a little bit more about true. Tell us a little bit more about this for Pasco. this for Pasco. this for Pasco. >> Yeah, I think that comes in in many >> Yeah, I think that comes in in many >> Yeah, I think that comes in in many versions of the Pon. I mean you can versions of the Pon. I mean you can versions of the Pon. I mean you can imagine scholars have great fun working imagine scholars have great fun working imagine scholars have great fun working out what order these would have come in out what order these would have come in out what order these would have come in but very often it comes towards the but very often it comes towards the but very often it comes towards the beginning and I think it would have come beginning and I think it would have come beginning and I think it would have come quite near the beginning or at least the quite near the beginning or at least the quite near the beginning or at least the key point or it's a key programmatic key point or it's a key programmatic key point or it's a key programmatic statement of the approach of the pulse statement of the approach of the pulse statement of the approach of the pulse um uh you know so he starts you know um uh you know so he starts you know um uh you know so he starts you know people despise religion and he's talking people despise religion and he's talking people despise religion and he's talking about his friends and you know we know about his friends and you know we know about his friends and you know we know we know who some of them are you know we know who some of them are you know we know who some of them are you know damon um shal de these people who were damon um shal de these people who were damon um shal de these people who were again you intelligent, sophisticated again you intelligent, sophisticated again you intelligent, sophisticated um people who enjoyed witty conversation um people who enjoyed witty conversation um people who enjoyed witty conversation in the salons. They're interested in in the salons. They're interested in in the salons. They're interested in hunting and playing games of tennis and hunting and playing games of tennis and hunting and playing games of tennis and women. They were just not interested in

women. They were just not interested in women. They were just not interested in God at all. Um God at all. Um God at all. Um and uh and he thinks to these people and uh and he thinks to these people and uh and he thinks to these people just multiplying the proofs, which is just multiplying the proofs, which is just multiplying the proofs, which is what many apologists at the time did, what many apologists at the time did, what many apologists at the time did, they just it's like water off a duck's they just it's like water off a duck's they just it's like water off a duck's back. It doesn't really get anywhere back. It doesn't really get anywhere back. It doesn't really get anywhere with them. You have to make them want it with them. You have to make them want it with them. You have to make them want it to be true. And so that's why that's why to be true. And so that's why that's why to be true. And so that's why that's why you know make it attractive. Make people you know make it attractive. Make people you know make it attractive. Make people wish it was true and then show that it wish it was true and then show that it wish it was true and then show that it is. So there is a place for reason. is. So there is a place for reason. is. So there is a place for reason. There is a place for showing the truth There is a place for showing the truth There is a place for showing the truth of Christian faith. But only after of Christian faith. But only after of Christian faith. But only after you've make them long for it to be true. you've make them long for it to be true. you've make them long for it to be true. And he says you don't get anywhere until And he says you don't get anywhere until And he says you don't get anywhere until you actually somehow make people wish you actually somehow make people wish you actually somehow make people wish that Christian faith was true. And so he that Christian faith was true. And so he that Christian faith was true. And so he comes up with a number of arguments as comes up with a number of arguments as comes up with a number of arguments as to why he thinks you know Christian to why he thinks you know Christian to why he thinks you know Christian faith is is attractive and how it draws faith is is attractive and how it draws faith is is attractive and how it draws people and how it kind of gives a sort people and how it kind of gives a sort people and how it kind of gives a sort of better explanation of better explanation of better explanation of the reality than say either Decard on of the reality than say either Decard on of the reality than say either Decard on the one hand the great rationalist or the one hand the great rationalist or the one hand the great rationalist or Michel de Monte on the other hand the Michel de Monte on the other hand the Michel de Monte on the other hand the great skeptic um and he draws on both of great skeptic um and he draws on both of great skeptic um and he draws on both of those why it's a better and more those why it's a better and more those why it's a better and more attractive vision that you get in Islam attractive vision that you get in Islam attractive vision that you get in Islam or in Judaism. So he basically, you or in Judaism. So he basically, you or in Judaism. So he basically, you know, he's he's a great student of the know, he's he's a great student of the know, he's he's a great student of the other um philosophies, religions of his other um philosophies, religions of his other um philosophies, religions of his time that wants to show how Christian time that wants to show how Christian time that wants to show how Christian faith offers a more, you know, faith offers a more, you know, faith offers a more, you know, satisfying and attractive vision of life satisfying and attractive vision of life satisfying and attractive vision of life than any of those. But that I think is than any of those. But that I think is than any of those. But that I think is his key to his apologetics. It is make his key to his apologetics. It is make his key to his apologetics. It is make it attractive, make good people wish it it attractive, make good people wish it it attractive, make good people wish it was true, and then show that it is. Get was true, and then show that it is. Get was true, and then show that it is. Get just a a few more big questions, but just a a few more big questions, but just a a few more big questions, but looking for shorter uh answers because looking for shorter uh answers because looking for shorter uh answers because I've taken so much of your time. would

I've taken so much of your time. would I've taken so much of your time. would have covered so many wonderful things have covered so many wonderful things have covered so many wonderful things already in here. We're talking with already in here. We're talking with already in here. We're talking with Graham Tomlin about Bla1 Pascal, the man Graham Tomlin about Bla1 Pascal, the man Graham Tomlin about Bla1 Pascal, the man who made the modern world. Well, it's who made the modern world. Well, it's who made the modern world. Well, it's not enough that he just made the modern not enough that he just made the modern not enough that he just made the modern world, Graham, but you also identify him world, Graham, but you also identify him world, Graham, but you also identify him as one of the makers of the postmodern as one of the makers of the postmodern as one of the makers of the postmodern world. What do you mean by that? Yeah. world. What do you mean by that? Yeah. world. What do you mean by that? Yeah. Well, in many ways, we we find ourselves Well, in many ways, we we find ourselves Well, in many ways, we we find ourselves in our time between the kind of modern in our time between the kind of modern in our time between the kind of modern and the postmodern. And if you like that and the postmodern. And if you like that and the postmodern. And if you like that echoes something that was true in echoes something that was true in echoes something that was true in Pascal's time and he he often positioned Pascal's time and he he often positioned Pascal's time and he he often positioned himself between two great thinkers of himself between two great thinkers of himself between two great thinkers of his own well one of his own day Rene his own well one of his own day Rene his own well one of his own day Rene Decart who is the kind of great Decart who is the kind of great Decart who is the kind of great rationalist thinker if you like the rationalist thinker if you like the rationalist thinker if you like the precursor of the modern world um this precursor of the modern world um this precursor of the modern world um this person who's very confident in human person who's very confident in human person who's very confident in human reason and its capacity to understand reason and its capacity to understand reason and its capacity to understand everything and to kind of prove God's everything and to kind of prove God's everything and to kind of prove God's existence and so on. Um but then on the existence and so on. Um but then on the existence and so on. Um but then on the other hand the the the the precursor of other hand the the the the precursor of other hand the the the the precursor of the the postmodern world is this figure the the postmodern world is this figure the the postmodern world is this figure from the previous century the 16th from the previous century the 16th from the previous century the 16th century Michel de leonten who was the century Michel de leonten who was the century Michel de leonten who was the great founder of the skeptical tradition great founder of the skeptical tradition great founder of the skeptical tradition and um Pascal is fascinated by Monten.

and um Pascal is fascinated by Monten. and um Pascal is fascinated by Monten. Um he's both fascinated drawn to him but Um he's both fascinated drawn to him but Um he's both fascinated drawn to him but also quite repelled by him at the same also quite repelled by him at the same also quite repelled by him at the same time because because Monten is the time because because Monten is the time because because Monten is the opposite of Daycart. He doesn't actually opposite of Daycart. He doesn't actually opposite of Daycart. He doesn't actually think that human reason can get you very think that human reason can get you very think that human reason can get you very far at all. He thinks that most human far at all. He thinks that most human far at all. He thinks that most human laws are just custom. They're just laws are just custom. They're just laws are just custom. They're just random things invented by people. He random things invented by people. He random things invented by people. He thinks we can't be very sure about thinks we can't be very sure about thinks we can't be very sure about anything. His great phrase, you know, if anything. His great phrase, you know, if anything. His great phrase, you know, if you think if you think of Daycart, you you think if you think of Daycart, you you think if you think of Daycart, you think of um Kito erggo, I think, think of um Kito erggo, I think, think of um Kito erggo, I think, therefore I am. You know, human therefore I am. You know, human therefore I am. You know, human rationality is the heart of it. rationality is the heart of it. rationality is the heart of it. Montine's great phrase, and he carried a Montine's great phrase, and he carried a Montine's great phrase, and he carried a little coin with this thing written on little coin with this thing written on little coin with this thing written on it was that the the the French phrase it was that the the the French phrase it was that the the the French phrase cus, what do I know? [snorts] Um not not cus, what do I know? [snorts] Um not not cus, what do I know? [snorts] Um not not even I know nothing. It's what do I even I know nothing. It's what do I even I know nothing. It's what do I know? Uh and that's his basic approach know? Uh and that's his basic approach know? Uh and that's his basic approach to life. what do I know? I I can't be to life. what do I know? I I can't be to life. what do I know? I I can't be sure about anything much really. So, in sure about anything much really. So, in sure about anything much really. So, in other words, just get on with life, other words, just get on with life, other words, just get on with life, enjoy it, examine your own internal uh enjoy it, examine your own internal uh enjoy it, examine your own internal uh workings of things. And so, the the workings of things. And so, the the workings of things. And so, the the essays of Monte are basically this essays of Monte are basically this essays of Monte are basically this exploration of his own internal exploration of his own internal exploration of his own internal motivations and and they're fascinating. motivations and and they're fascinating. motivations and and they're fascinating. They're brilliantly written and they're They're brilliantly written and they're They're brilliantly written and they're they're still very popular today. Um but they're still very popular today. Um but they're still very popular today. Um but that's really the precursor of the of that's really the precursor of the of that's really the precursor of the of the postmodern. Now, Pascal draws on the postmodern. Now, Pascal draws on the postmodern. Now, Pascal draws on that quite a bit. He has quite a lot that quite a bit. He has quite a lot that quite a bit. He has quite a lot where he uh goes back to this this idea where he uh goes back to this this idea where he uh goes back to this this idea you know the greatness and the misery of you know the greatness and the misery of you know the greatness and the misery of humankind. The greatness is going to be humankind. The greatness is going to be humankind. The greatness is going to be he gets that from daycart. Daycart he he gets that from daycart. Daycart he he gets that from daycart. Daycart he says understands the greatness of says understands the greatness of says understands the greatness of humanity and its capacity to understand humanity and its capacity to understand humanity and its capacity to understand the world. Montene gets understands the the world. Montene gets understands the the world. Montene gets understands the fallenness of the world and if you like fallenness of the world and if you like fallenness of the world and if you like the the the the the the the the the Montine's emphasis upon you know we

Montine's emphasis upon you know we Montine's emphasis upon you know we can't know anything for sure. There's can't know anything for sure. There's can't know anything for sure. There's something of that at Pascal as well. something of that at Pascal as well. something of that at Pascal as well. this inability we have uh within this inability we have uh within this inability we have uh within ourselves purely from human reason to ourselves purely from human reason to ourselves purely from human reason to kind of to really get to the bottom of kind of to really get to the bottom of kind of to really get to the bottom of things to find God um and therefore sort things to find God um and therefore sort things to find God um and therefore sort of multiple perspectives on things that of multiple perspectives on things that of multiple perspectives on things that we see within the postmodern world we see within the postmodern world we see within the postmodern world that's very montain and Pascal plays that's very montain and Pascal plays that's very montain and Pascal plays with that he uses that and he's he talks with that he uses that and he's he talks with that he uses that and he's he talks a great deal about the kind of a great deal about the kind of a great deal about the kind of uncertainty of of of of human life and uncertainty of of of of human life and uncertainty of of of of human life and the way in which we understand things the way in which we understand things the way in which we understand things you know he he talks about you know how you know he he talks about you know how you know he he talks about you know how you know reason's last step is the you know reason's last step is the you know reason's last step is the recognition there are an infinite number recognition there are an infinite number recognition there are an infinite number of things which are beyond it. Again of things which are beyond it. Again of things which are beyond it. Again that's very monte that's very kind of that's very monte that's very kind of that's very monte that's very kind of postmodern in a sense you know that postmodern in a sense you know that postmodern in a sense you know that reason has to know its limits. Um he reason has to know its limits. Um he reason has to know its limits. Um he talks about how um you know if if there talks about how um you know if if there talks about how um you know if if there is a reason if there is a god he's is a reason if there is a god he's is a reason if there is a god he's infinitely beyond our comp comprehension infinitely beyond our comp comprehension infinitely beyond our comp comprehension because he bears no relation to us. So because he bears no relation to us. So because he bears no relation to us. So he he says in ourselves god is beyond he he says in ourselves god is beyond he he says in ourselves god is beyond our comprehension unless he reveals our comprehension unless he reveals our comprehension unless he reveals himself in Jesus Christ. And so in some himself in Jesus Christ. And so in some himself in Jesus Christ. And so in some ways because he because Pascal channels ways because he because Pascal channels ways because he because Pascal channels a little Monte and he plays this this a little Monte and he plays this this a little Monte and he plays this this part of you know wanting to and he he part of you know wanting to and he he part of you know wanting to and he he kind of plays with his reader um saying kind of plays with his reader um saying kind of plays with his reader um saying on the one hand yeah there's the on the one hand yeah there's the on the one hand yeah there's the greatness yeah but there's the misery at greatness yeah but there's the misery at greatness yeah but there's the misery at the same time and you can't have one the same time and you can't have one the same time and you can't have one without the other. You've got to have without the other. You've got to have without the other. You've got to have both. And in that case he is he is both both. And in that case he is he is both both. And in that case he is he is both the the pre the the um the the precursor the the pre the the um the the precursor the the pre the the um the the precursor of the of the modern world but also the of the of the modern world but also the of the of the modern world but also the postmodern world in his statements about postmodern world in his statements about postmodern world in his statements about the uncertainty of humankind and our the uncertainty of humankind and our the uncertainty of humankind and our inability to kind of know anything for inability to kind of know anything for inability to kind of know anything for sure. He also, I think, is very aware of sure. He also, I think, is very aware of sure. He also, I think, is very aware of the smallalness of humanity and the the smallalness of humanity and the the smallalness of humanity and the vastness of the world. And he's living

vastness of the world. And he's living vastness of the world. And he's living in a world after the invention of the of in a world after the invention of the of in a world after the invention of the of the telescope. He's able to look into the telescope. He's able to look into the telescope. He's able to look into space and see the the the smallalness of space and see the the the smallalness of space and see the the the smallalness of of of this planet, the smallness of of of this planet, the smallness of of of this planet, the smallness of humanity, a little speck of life on it. humanity, a little speck of life on it. humanity, a little speck of life on it. It's a very modern sensibility, It's a very modern sensibility, It's a very modern sensibility, something that neither Luther or Calvin something that neither Luther or Calvin something that neither Luther or Calvin would have said. Um, and that again would have said. Um, and that again would have said. Um, and that again plays into the postmodern sense of of plays into the postmodern sense of of plays into the postmodern sense of of the kind of frailty of humanity, its the kind of frailty of humanity, its the kind of frailty of humanity, its inability to to use reason, our kind of inability to to use reason, our kind of inability to to use reason, our kind of multiple perspectives on life, none of multiple perspectives on life, none of multiple perspectives on life, none of which can be said to be true. This this which can be said to be true. This this which can be said to be true. This this says everything's up for grabs. says everything's up for grabs. says everything's up for grabs. Everything could be de deconstructed. Everything could be de deconstructed. Everything could be de deconstructed. That's montain. And um, so Pascal drools That's montain. And um, so Pascal drools That's montain. And um, so Pascal drools on that. And so in some ways he kind of on that. And so in some ways he kind of on that. And so in some ways he kind of channels that into the modern world. I channels that into the modern world. I channels that into the modern world. I think I teach a good bit on the modern think I teach a good bit on the modern think I teach a good bit on the modern breakthrough of the Nordic countries of breakthrough of the Nordic countries of breakthrough of the Nordic countries of Scandinavia, but I was having trouble Scandinavia, but I was having trouble Scandinavia, but I was having trouble making sense of the essence or nature of making sense of the essence or nature of making sense of the essence or nature of that modern breakthrough, the kind of that modern breakthrough, the kind of that modern breakthrough, the kind of secularism early 20th century carrying secularism early 20th century carrying secularism early 20th century carrying through today until I started reading through today until I started reading through today until I started reading Montana Montana Montana >> and then all of a sudden I saw it. >> and then all of a sudden I saw it. >> and then all of a sudden I saw it. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Yep. Exactly. >> Yep. Exactly. >> So that is that is the man who is >> So that is that is the man who is >> So that is that is the man who is embodies more of the of modern western embodies more of the of modern western embodies more of the of modern western secularism today. somebody who was a secularism today. somebody who was a secularism today. somebody who was a contemporary of Calvin.

contemporary of Calvin. contemporary of Calvin. >> Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yeah. And >> Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yeah. And >> Yeah, exactly. That's right. Yeah. And he does and and and again Pascal draws he does and and and again Pascal draws he does and and and again Pascal draws on him quite a lot again to unsettle his on him quite a lot again to unsettle his on him quite a lot again to unsettle his reader. He wants to unsettle his reader reader. He wants to unsettle his reader reader. He wants to unsettle his reader who is a very, you know, the kind of who is a very, you know, the kind of who is a very, you know, the kind of carteesian daycart reader who's very carteesian daycart reader who's very carteesian daycart reader who's very confident in human reason. He wants to confident in human reason. He wants to confident in human reason. He wants to unsettle him. He wants to kind of unsettle him. He wants to kind of unsettle him. He wants to kind of unsettle the reader to realize, you unsettle the reader to realize, you unsettle the reader to realize, you know, he has these these these these know, he has these these these these know, he has these these these these things, you know, when I look into things, you know, when I look into things, you know, when I look into space, I kind of why am I here? Who put space, I kind of why am I here? Who put space, I kind of why am I here? Who put me here? you know what what what's going me here? you know what what what's going me here? you know what what what's going on why am I such a sort of you know on why am I such a sort of you know on why am I such a sort of you know emphasizing the smallness of humanity emphasizing the smallness of humanity emphasizing the smallness of humanity which again is something he draws from which again is something he draws from which again is something he draws from from from um from Mont one of his again from from um from Mont one of his again from from um from Mont one of his again Pascal's famous statements is um you Pascal's famous statements is um you Pascal's famous statements is um you know put put the world's greatest know put put the world's greatest know put put the world's greatest philosopher on a plank that is smaller philosopher on a plank that is smaller philosopher on a plank that is smaller than need be suspended above a great than need be suspended above a great than need be suspended above a great abyss even though his mind tells him abyss even though his mind tells him abyss even though his mind tells him he's safe his imagination tells him it's he's safe his imagination tells him it's he's safe his imagination tells him it's not something he actually he got from not something he actually he got from not something he actually he got from from from Monten he wants to kind from from Monten he wants to kind from from Monten he wants to kind undermine confidence in human reason undermine confidence in human reason undermine confidence in human reason because he thinks that that is not going because he thinks that that is not going because he thinks that that is not going to lead you to God. And so in some ways to lead you to God. And so in some ways to lead you to God. And so in some ways Montene uses Monten in very powerful Montene uses Monten in very powerful Montene uses Monten in very powerful ways. I think trying to think of who is ways. I think trying to think of who is ways. I think trying to think of who is the biggest foil, but I hadn't thought the biggest foil, but I hadn't thought the biggest foil, but I hadn't thought quite as much about how he uses Montana quite as much about how he uses Montana quite as much about how he uses Montana uh there as that postmodern eve. It got uh there as that postmodern eve. It got uh there as that postmodern eve. It got me thinking in new directions in here. I me thinking in new directions in here. I me thinking in new directions in here. I was trying to think of how he's a foil was trying to think of how he's a foil was trying to think of how he's a foil with Voltater and Nietz as well. Of with Voltater and Nietz as well. Of with Voltater and Nietz as well. Of course, they come after him, so they're course, they come after him, so they're course, they come after him, so they're reacting to Pascal. in a lot of ways.

reacting to Pascal. in a lot of ways. reacting to Pascal. in a lot of ways. But um but I do find Montan so many But um but I do find Montan so many But um but I do find Montan so many different ways to be more the man of the different ways to be more the man of the different ways to be more the man of the moment. moment. moment. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Montan has >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Montan has >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think Montan has it's why there's great there's there's a it's why there's great there's there's a it's why there's great there's there's a lot of you know Montana is very popular lot of you know Montana is very popular lot of you know Montana is very popular today. Um because he embodies that sort today. Um because he embodies that sort today. Um because he embodies that sort of like sort of stoicism that that that of like sort of stoicism that that that of like sort of stoicism that that that that can be there. This this kind of that can be there. This this kind of that can be there. This this kind of sense of this uncertainty the kind of sense of this uncertainty the kind of sense of this uncertainty the kind of sense we can't be sure of anything. Um sense we can't be sure of anything. Um sense we can't be sure of anything. Um there we we don't have a confidence in there we we don't have a confidence in there we we don't have a confidence in absolute truth. Everything is there to absolute truth. Everything is there to absolute truth. Everything is there to be deconstructed. That is classic Monte. be deconstructed. That is classic Monte. be deconstructed. That is classic Monte. And so um he does, you know, he And so um he does, you know, he And so um he does, you know, he resonates with a lot of modern people resonates with a lot of modern people resonates with a lot of modern people >> and yet a desire for imminent >> and yet a desire for imminent >> and yet a desire for imminent contentment. contentment. contentment. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Y >> Y >> Y >> um above all, if he just added a little >> um above all, if he just added a little >> um above all, if he just added a little dose of cosmopolitan humanitarianism, dose of cosmopolitan humanitarianism, dose of cosmopolitan humanitarianism, >> y >> y >> y >> uh then you would get I think uh the >> uh then you would get I think uh the >> uh then you would get I think uh the modern secular west. Okay. Again, big modern secular west. Okay. Again, big modern secular west. Okay. Again, big question. Um, but uh, [laughter] question. Um, but uh, [laughter] question. Um, but uh, [laughter] so not trying to enter all these so not trying to enter all these so not trying to enter all these different new spheres here, but what different new spheres here, but what different new spheres here, but what would be Pascal's biggest critique of would be Pascal's biggest critique of would be Pascal's biggest critique of modern science? Uh, his biggest, well, I modern science? Uh, his biggest, well, I modern science? Uh, his biggest, well, I think his biggest critique of modern think his biggest critique of modern think his biggest critique of modern science science science would not be not be of science, but of would not be not be of science, but of would not be not be of science, but of what you might call a scientism. Um, I what you might call a scientism. Um, I what you might call a scientism. Um, I think his biggest critique of someone think his biggest critique of someone think his biggest critique of someone like a Richard D Richard Dawkins would like a Richard D Richard Dawkins would like a Richard D Richard Dawkins would be the confidence that science can tell be the confidence that science can tell be the confidence that science can tell you everything you need to know about you everything you need to know about you everything you need to know about everything that matters.

everything that matters. everything that matters. Uh there's Pascal is a great believer in Uh there's Pascal is a great believer in Uh there's Pascal is a great believer in science. He thinks it can tell you a lot science. He thinks it can tell you a lot science. He thinks it can tell you a lot about the way the world is and the way about the way the world is and the way about the way the world is and the way the world was the world works. Um so the world was the world works. Um so the world was the world works. Um so he's not an irrationalist as I was he's not an irrationalist as I was he's not an irrationalist as I was saying earlier on. He's a great believer saying earlier on. He's a great believer saying earlier on. He's a great believer in experimental science. But he draws in experimental science. But he draws in experimental science. But he draws this strict distinction between where this strict distinction between where this strict distinction between where science is useful in physics in biology science is useful in physics in biology science is useful in physics in biology in mathematics and geometry the in mathematics and geometry the in mathematics and geometry the geometric mind as he calls it. And geometric mind as he calls it. And geometric mind as he calls it. And another kind of thinking, what he calls another kind of thinking, what he calls another kind of thinking, what he calls the espediness, this kind of a spirit of the espediness, this kind of a spirit of the espediness, this kind of a spirit of finesse or whatever it might be, which finesse or whatever it might be, which finesse or whatever it might be, which is the kind of thinking you need to have is the kind of thinking you need to have is the kind of thinking you need to have when you're in in the world of theology. when you're in in the world of theology. when you're in in the world of theology. Um, he thinks that God God is not an Um, he thinks that God God is not an Um, he thinks that God God is not an object within the world to be understood object within the world to be understood object within the world to be understood like the books on my shelf behind me or like the books on my shelf behind me or like the books on my shelf behind me or the plant in your room. God is not the plant in your room. God is not the plant in your room. God is not something that can be analyzed in a test something that can be analyzed in a test something that can be analyzed in a test tube. He's a different order of being. tube. He's a different order of being. tube. He's a different order of being. Therefore, science is of very little use Therefore, science is of very little use Therefore, science is of very little use when it comes to understanding God. when it comes to understanding God. when it comes to understanding God. um it might kind of hint in one um it might kind of hint in one um it might kind of hint in one direction or another. He actually direction or another. He actually direction or another. He actually doesn't think that science leads you one doesn't think that science leads you one doesn't think that science leads you one way or the other. In fact, he says that way or the other. In fact, he says that way or the other. In fact, he says that science actually leads you to the hidden science actually leads you to the hidden science actually leads you to the hidden god. And this is one of the arguments he god. And this is one of the arguments he god. And this is one of the arguments he does use, I think, is that science leads does use, I think, is that science leads does use, I think, is that science leads you to a kind of sense of uncertainty.

you to a kind of sense of uncertainty. you to a kind of sense of uncertainty. There might be a god. There are some There might be a god. There are some There might be a god. There are some some indications that suggest there may some indications that suggest there may some indications that suggest there may be an intelligence behind um behind be an intelligence behind um behind be an intelligence behind um behind everything there is, but it's not enough everything there is, but it's not enough everything there is, but it's not enough to convince. In other words, a god who to convince. In other words, a god who to convince. In other words, a god who is hidden. Ah, where have I heard that is hidden. Ah, where have I heard that is hidden. Ah, where have I heard that before? Um, so you can sort of see how before? Um, so you can sort of see how before? Um, so you can sort of see how he actually does think that science can he actually does think that science can he actually does think that science can lead you to go to towards God, but not lead you to go to towards God, but not lead you to go to towards God, but not by the kind of normal scientific method. by the kind of normal scientific method. by the kind of normal scientific method. So I think that would be his main So I think that would be his main So I think that would be his main critique of a science that's overblown critique of a science that's overblown critique of a science that's overblown that claims more than it's able to do. that claims more than it's able to do. that claims more than it's able to do. He said, "Science has great ability, but He said, "Science has great ability, but He said, "Science has great ability, but it needs to know its place within human it needs to know its place within human it needs to know its place within human knowledge and understanding." Well, knowledge and understanding." Well, knowledge and understanding." Well, Graham, I want to end with just a a Graham, I want to end with just a a Graham, I want to end with just a a couple quotes that I thought are just couple quotes that I thought are just couple quotes that I thought are just amazing that you wrote in this book and amazing that you wrote in this book and amazing that you wrote in this book and just something because they're great just something because they're great just something because they're great summary of why the book is so excellent, summary of why the book is so excellent, summary of why the book is so excellent, which is Bla1 Pascal, the man who made which is Bla1 Pascal, the man who made which is Bla1 Pascal, the man who made the modern world, but also um just the modern world, but also um just the modern world, but also um just summarizing so much of the insights of summarizing so much of the insights of summarizing so much of the insights of this conversation. And you say Pascal's this conversation. And you say Pascal's this conversation. And you say Pascal's religion is not one for the converted, religion is not one for the converted, religion is not one for the converted, the affluent, those who have succeeded the affluent, those who have succeeded the affluent, those who have succeeded in life, who are unaware of any deep in life, who are unaware of any deep in life, who are unaware of any deep yearning of the soul, who never yearning of the soul, who never yearning of the soul, who never experience a nagging sense of guilt that experience a nagging sense of guilt that experience a nagging sense of guilt that just can't be shaken off. It is a faith just can't be shaken off. It is a faith just can't be shaken off. It is a faith for those who have looked into the for those who have looked into the for those who have looked into the abyss. For those who have seen their own abyss. For those who have seen their own abyss. For those who have seen their own shame and despair, who have come to the shame and despair, who have come to the shame and despair, who have come to the end of their own resources and realized end of their own resources and realized end of their own resources and realized that they do not have within themselves that they do not have within themselves that they do not have within themselves the capacity or the strength to navigate the capacity or the strength to navigate the capacity or the strength to navigate life and death and all their complexity.

life and death and all their complexity. life and death and all their complexity. It is a faith that grasp the tragedy of It is a faith that grasp the tragedy of It is a faith that grasp the tragedy of the human condition both in the general the human condition both in the general the human condition both in the general sense of human life as a whole and in sense of human life as a whole and in sense of human life as a whole and in the personal tragedies that affect the personal tragedies that affect the personal tragedies that affect almost every human life. Um, thank you almost every human life. Um, thank you almost every human life. Um, thank you so much for introducing us to this man so much for introducing us to this man so much for introducing us to this man and his faith. He may not have been a and his faith. He may not have been a and his faith. He may not have been a comfortable person to be around. You comfortable person to be around. You comfortable person to be around. You talk about that as well, but he left talk about that as well, but he left talk about that as well, but he left behind an amazing legacy that will behind an amazing legacy that will behind an amazing legacy that will outlive any of us. He was, and again, outlive any of us. He was, and again, outlive any of us. He was, and again, I'll end here with your words, [music] I'll end here with your words, [music] I'll end here with your words, [music] an insightful, if sometimes an insightful, if sometimes an insightful, if sometimes uncomfortable, companion along the uncomfortable, companion along the uncomfortable, companion along the journey, illuminating our path with a journey, illuminating our path with a journey, illuminating our path with a [music] strange light from another [music] strange light from another [music] strange light from another world, a world he yearned for and of world, a world he yearned for and of world, a world he yearned for and of which he wagered his and on which he which he wagered his and on which he which he wagered his and on which he wagered his life. Beautiful work, wagered his life. Beautiful work, wagered his life. Beautiful work, Graham. [music] Thanks so much. Thanks, Graham. [music] Thanks so much. Thanks, Graham. [music] Thanks so much. Thanks, Colin. Really enjoyed the conversation Colin. Really enjoyed the conversation Colin. Really enjoyed the conversation today. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound.

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