The Pastor and Counseling (with Deepak Reju) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 38]

[Music] [Music] If if we think of discipling as the If if we think of discipling as the If if we think of discipling as the overarching banner that we have in overarching banner that we have in overarching banner that we have in scripture, we are mentoring people into scripture, we are mentoring people into scripture, we are mentoring people into greater maturity in Christ. Counseling greater maturity in Christ. Counseling greater maturity in Christ. Counseling is is problem focused and timelmited is is problem focused and timelmited is is problem focused and timelmited version of discipling. And therefore, I version of discipling. And therefore, I version of discipling. And therefore, I am trying to work my way out of a job am trying to work my way out of a job am trying to work my way out of a job when it comes to counseling when it comes to counseling when it comes to counseling and hand people off to the culture of and hand people off to the culture of and hand people off to the culture of discipling I hope is in our church. discipling I hope is in our church. discipling I hope is in our church. [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Smithst. Matt Smithst. Matt Smithst. >> And I'm Luke Duncan. >> And I'm Luke Duncan. >> And I'm Luke Duncan. >> And today we're going to be thinking >> And today we're going to be thinking >> And today we're going to be thinking about the topic of the pastor and about the topic of the pastor and about the topic of the pastor and counseling. And with us to help us is counseling. And with us to help us is counseling. And with us to help us is our friend Deepac Raju. He's the senior our friend Deepac Raju. He's the senior our friend Deepac Raju. He's the senior pastor of Ogaltown Baptist Church in pastor of Ogaltown Baptist Church in pastor of Ogaltown Baptist Church in Newark, Delaware. Previously, he served Newark, Delaware. Previously, he served Newark, Delaware. Previously, he served as an associate pastor for counseling at as an associate pastor for counseling at as an associate pastor for counseling at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington, DC for nearly 20 years. He's Washington, DC for nearly 20 years. He's Washington, DC for nearly 20 years. He's a trustee of the Christian Counseling a trustee of the Christian Counseling a trustee of the Christian Counseling and Education Foundation, popularly and Education Foundation, popularly and Education Foundation, popularly known as CCEF. And Deeppac is the author known as CCEF. And Deeppac is the author known as CCEF. And Deeppac is the author of several books, including one in of several books, including one in of several books, including one in particular that's germanine to this particular that's germanine to this particular that's germanine to this conversation, The Pastor and Counseling, conversation, The Pastor and Counseling, conversation, The Pastor and Counseling, The Basics of Shephering Members in The Basics of Shephering Members in The Basics of Shephering Members in Need, co-authored with Jeremy Pierre.

Need, co-authored with Jeremy Pierre. Need, co-authored with Jeremy Pierre. And he's also the co-host of Counseling And he's also the co-host of Counseling And he's also the co-host of Counseling Talk, a great podcast from our friends Talk, a great podcast from our friends Talk, a great podcast from our friends at Nine Marks. And most importantly, he at Nine Marks. And most importantly, he at Nine Marks. And most importantly, he officiated my wedding. officiated my wedding. officiated my wedding. >> So true. So true. >> So true. So true. >> So true. So true. >> Welcome to the podcast. >> Welcome to the podcast. >> Welcome to the podcast. >> Thank you, Matt and Le. It's a pleasure >> Thank you, Matt and Le. It's a pleasure >> Thank you, Matt and Le. It's a pleasure to be on the show. to be on the show. to be on the show. >> Deepac, let's just start by uh framing >> Deepac, let's just start by uh framing >> Deepac, let's just start by uh framing the conversation with why it's the conversation with why it's the conversation with why it's something. I mean, after all, this is a something. I mean, after all, this is a something. I mean, after all, this is a podcast called The Everyday Pastor. This podcast called The Everyday Pastor. This podcast called The Everyday Pastor. This is not your podcast counseling talk. So is not your podcast counseling talk. So is not your podcast counseling talk. So why is this a conversation we should be why is this a conversation we should be why is this a conversation we should be having on our podcast? Why is this a having on our podcast? Why is this a having on our podcast? Why is this a topic that everyday pastors need to care topic that everyday pastors need to care topic that everyday pastors need to care about? about? about? >> The typical scenario for everyday >> The typical scenario for everyday >> The typical scenario for everyday pastors is graduating seminary, getting pastors is graduating seminary, getting pastors is graduating seminary, getting their first pastor, whether you're their first pastor, whether you're their first pastor, whether you're associate or senior pastor, and then associate or senior pastor, and then associate or senior pastor, and then trial by fire. trial by fire. trial by fire. Usually within weeks if not months the Usually within weeks if not months the Usually within weeks if not months the phone starts ringing or you get texts or phone starts ringing or you get texts or phone starts ringing or you get texts or you get the requests and you get thrown you get the requests and you get thrown you get the requests and you get thrown in the deep end of difficult and hard in the deep end of difficult and hard in the deep end of difficult and hard situations in that congregation. So the situations in that congregation. So the situations in that congregation. So the the depression, suicide, the depression, suicide, the depression, suicide, bad marriages, you just you you go on bad marriages, you just you you go on bad marriages, you just you you go on down the list of the hard things that down the list of the hard things that down the list of the hard things that show up at a pastor's door. Mhm.

show up at a pastor's door. Mhm. show up at a pastor's door. Mhm. >> And Ligan, as gracious as I want to be >> And Ligan, as gracious as I want to be >> And Ligan, as gracious as I want to be to seminaries, you know, all all the to seminaries, you know, all all the to seminaries, you know, all all the departments want to get a piece of you. departments want to get a piece of you. departments want to get a piece of you. So you get one to three classes at the So you get one to three classes at the So you get one to three classes at the most and then suddenly you're thrown in. most and then suddenly you're thrown in. most and then suddenly you're thrown in. So every every pastor knows the So every every pastor knows the So every every pastor knows the experience of having to figure it out experience of having to figure it out experience of having to figure it out and feeling ill equipped to handle some and feeling ill equipped to handle some and feeling ill equipped to handle some of the very difficult things that walk of the very difficult things that walk of the very difficult things that walk through their door. So that's why we through their door. So that's why we through their door. So that's why we care about it because in the day-to-day care about it because in the day-to-day care about it because in the day-to-day trenches of what pastors are facing, trenches of what pastors are facing, trenches of what pastors are facing, they are getting all these requests to they are getting all these requests to they are getting all these requests to help out. And be honest, you know, with help out. And be honest, you know, with help out. And be honest, you know, with how expensive counseling is if you're how expensive counseling is if you're how expensive counseling is if you're going to go for private practice, going to go for private practice, going to go for private practice, >> your pastor is your free counseling in a >> your pastor is your free counseling in a >> your pastor is your free counseling in a sense. You pay their salary by sense. You pay their salary by sense. You pay their salary by faithfully tithing, but you can go see a faithfully tithing, but you can go see a faithfully tithing, but you can go see a pastor any number of times pastor any number of times pastor any number of times and have them serve and care for you for and have them serve and care for you for and have them serve and care for you for a number of years, which this is a a number of years, which this is a a number of years, which this is a different kind of care than what the different kind of care than what the different kind of care than what the rest of the world typically offers.

rest of the world typically offers. rest of the world typically offers. >> Setting the terms definitionally, >> Setting the terms definitionally, >> Setting the terms definitionally, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> how would you describe what we're >> how would you describe what we're >> how would you describe what we're talking about? What is counseling talking about? What is counseling talking about? What is counseling according to the Bible? The the simple according to the Bible? The the simple according to the Bible? The the simple way to think about it is it's sinners way to think about it is it's sinners way to think about it is it's sinners coming alongside sinners and sufferers coming alongside sinners and sufferers coming alongside sinners and sufferers coming alongside sufferers with the goal coming alongside sufferers with the goal coming alongside sufferers with the goal of seeing them grow in Christ. So of seeing them grow in Christ. So of seeing them grow in Christ. So Colossians 1:27 and 28 Colossians 1:27 and 28 Colossians 1:27 and 28 to them God chose to make known how to them God chose to make known how to them God chose to make known how great among the Gentiles are the riches great among the Gentiles are the riches great among the Gentiles are the riches of the glory of the mystery which Christ of the glory of the mystery which Christ of the glory of the mystery which Christ in you the hope of glory him we proclaim in you the hope of glory him we proclaim in you the hope of glory him we proclaim warning everyone and teaching everyone warning everyone and teaching everyone warning everyone and teaching everyone with all wisdom that we may present with all wisdom that we may present with all wisdom that we may present everyone mature in Christ and then the everyone mature in Christ and then the everyone mature in Christ and then the phrase that Paul uses for this I toil phrase that Paul uses for this I toil phrase that Paul uses for this I toil that that's what we're labor ing to see that that's what we're labor ing to see that that's what we're labor ing to see everyone grow up in Christ and coming everyone grow up in Christ and coming everyone grow up in Christ and coming alongside of them through everything alongside of them through everything alongside of them through everything that they're going through. that they're going through. that they're going through. >> That explanation >> That explanation >> That explanation sounds a lot like discipling. Uh so how sounds a lot like discipling. Uh so how sounds a lot like discipling. Uh so how would you distinguish the categories of would you distinguish the categories of would you distinguish the categories of counseling and discipling?

counseling and discipling? counseling and discipling? >> Yeah, that's a great question. If if we >> Yeah, that's a great question. If if we >> Yeah, that's a great question. If if we think of discipling as the overarching think of discipling as the overarching think of discipling as the overarching banner that we have in scripture, we're banner that we have in scripture, we're banner that we have in scripture, we're one-on-one or, you know, a a teacher in one-on-one or, you know, a a teacher in one-on-one or, you know, a a teacher in a classroom, uh, small group setting, a classroom, uh, small group setting, a classroom, uh, small group setting, but essentially we are we are mentoring but essentially we are we are mentoring but essentially we are we are mentoring people into greater maturity in Christ. people into greater maturity in Christ. people into greater maturity in Christ. Counseling is is problem focused and Counseling is is problem focused and Counseling is is problem focused and timelited version of discipling. So timelited version of discipling. So timelited version of discipling. So counseling is a subset of discipling. counseling is a subset of discipling. counseling is a subset of discipling. >> H >> H >> H >> and therefore I am trying to work my way >> and therefore I am trying to work my way >> and therefore I am trying to work my way out of a job when it comes to counseling out of a job when it comes to counseling out of a job when it comes to counseling and hand people off to the culture of and hand people off to the culture of and hand people off to the culture of discipling I hope is in our church so discipling I hope is in our church so discipling I hope is in our church so that the rest of the congregation can that the rest of the congregation can that the rest of the congregation can take the responsibility of discipling take the responsibility of discipling take the responsibility of discipling those members through the many seasons those members through the many seasons those members through the many seasons of their life. And then I get to step in of their life. And then I get to step in of their life. And then I get to step in at a variety of times. So, like at CBC, at a variety of times. So, like at CBC, at a variety of times. So, like at CBC, I would get to know young guys when they I would get to know young guys when they I would get to know young guys when they were single and often get involved in were single and often get involved in were single and often get involved in their lives. Some of them, my first their lives. Some of them, my first their lives. Some of them, my first entry in was when they showed up with a entry in was when they showed up with a entry in was when they showed up with a problem like pornography, and I'd help problem like pornography, and I'd help problem like pornography, and I'd help them through that. We'd work through to them through that. We'd work through to them through that. We'd work through to the place where they were ready to start the place where they were ready to start the place where they were ready to start dating because they were free of dating because they were free of dating because they were free of pornography and could start thinking pornography and could start thinking pornography and could start thinking about marriage.

about marriage. about marriage. >> They would get married. Well, guess what >> They would get married. Well, guess what >> They would get married. Well, guess what I'm doing? I'm mentoring them in early I'm doing? I'm mentoring them in early I'm doing? I'm mentoring them in early stages of marriage. Conflict resolution stages of marriage. Conflict resolution stages of marriage. Conflict resolution is typically early stages of marriage. is typically early stages of marriage. is typically early stages of marriage. And then they start having children and And then they start having children and And then they start having children and mentoring them in parenting as a father mentoring them in parenting as a father mentoring them in parenting as a father and a husband. So you see how I enter in and a husband. So you see how I enter in and a husband. So you see how I enter in at different stages, but counseling is at different stages, but counseling is at different stages, but counseling is like you take that first season, a guy like you take that first season, a guy like you take that first season, a guy shows up and he's struggling with shows up and he's struggling with shows up and he's struggling with pornography. pornography. pornography. I'm entering in for a limited time to I'm entering in for a limited time to I'm entering in for a limited time to deal with that problem. And they don't deal with that problem. And they don't deal with that problem. And they don't need my help once they're free of need my help once they're free of need my help once they're free of pornography to deal with that problem pornography to deal with that problem pornography to deal with that problem anymore. Hopefully they have the tools. anymore. Hopefully they have the tools. anymore. Hopefully they have the tools. So problem focused, time- centered. So problem focused, time- centered. So problem focused, time- centered. People don't show up typically if they People don't show up typically if they People don't show up typically if they don't have a problem to the counseling don't have a problem to the counseling don't have a problem to the counseling pastor. If they're happy and they're pastor. If they're happy and they're pastor. If they're happy and they're doing fine, they don't need to be in my doing fine, they don't need to be in my doing fine, they don't need to be in my office or they don't show up at my office or they don't show up at my office or they don't show up at my office. office. office. >> So what I hear you saying is is not that >> So what I hear you saying is is not that >> So what I hear you saying is is not that counseling isn't more than that. You're counseling isn't more than that. You're counseling isn't more than that. You're saying it's not less than that. that at saying it's not less than that. that at saying it's not less than that. that at bottom counseling is this kind of you bottom counseling is this kind of you bottom counseling is this kind of you said problem focused timelimited this said problem focused timelimited this said problem focused timelimited this kind of intensive kind of intensive kind of intensive uh temporary form of disciplehip.

uh temporary form of disciplehip. uh temporary form of disciplehip. >> Yeah. And you could use all kinds of >> Yeah. And you could use all kinds of >> Yeah. And you could use all kinds of word pictures. Uh, one of them the uh, word pictures. Uh, one of them the uh, word pictures. Uh, one of them the uh, Steve Buyers wrote an article in the Steve Buyers wrote an article in the Steve Buyers wrote an article in the journal biblical counseling from CCF journal biblical counseling from CCF journal biblical counseling from CCF and and he described counseling is that and and he described counseling is that and and he described counseling is that I'm not a fisherman but that eddy that I'm not a fisherman but that eddy that I'm not a fisherman but that eddy that you pull over if you're in the river you you pull over if you're in the river you you pull over if you're in the river you need a time to take a break need a time to take a break need a time to take a break >> to focus on things to get retoled >> to focus on things to get retoled >> to focus on things to get retoled >> and then when you're done there that >> and then when you're done there that >> and then when you're done there that limited time you get back into the flow limited time you get back into the flow limited time you get back into the flow of disciplehip the river of the culture of disciplehip the river of the culture of disciplehip the river of the culture of discipling in your church so that the of discipling in your church so that the of discipling in your church so that the rest of the congregation can take rest of the congregation can take rest of the congregation can take responsibility for your life. So responsibility for your life. So responsibility for your life. So timelimited timelimited timelimited and problem focused is the reason why if and problem focused is the reason why if and problem focused is the reason why if they're doing fine spiritually, they're doing fine spiritually, they're doing fine spiritually, they don't really need your help. they don't really need your help. they don't really need your help. >> Lig, as you reflect on your decades of >> Lig, as you reflect on your decades of >> Lig, as you reflect on your decades of pastoral ministry, how did you think pastoral ministry, how did you think pastoral ministry, how did you think about the topic of counseling? And of about the topic of counseling? And of about the topic of counseling? And of course, much of your ministry was before course, much of your ministry was before course, much of your ministry was before the kind of biblical counseling movement the kind of biblical counseling movement the kind of biblical counseling movement as we would know it today.

as we would know it today. as we would know it today. uh took off uh not before it was a you uh took off uh not before it was a you uh took off uh not before it was a you know founded necessarily but but before know founded necessarily but but before know founded necessarily but but before there were as many tools and resources there were as many tools and resources there were as many tools and resources available to everyday pastors. So talk a available to everyday pastors. So talk a available to everyday pastors. So talk a little bit about what your experience little bit about what your experience little bit about what your experience was like as a pastor trying to both was like as a pastor trying to both was like as a pastor trying to both counsel and equip members to counsel one counsel and equip members to counsel one counsel and equip members to counsel one another. Uh, you know, Matt, counseling another. Uh, you know, Matt, counseling another. Uh, you know, Matt, counseling was not a thing that I would have told was not a thing that I would have told was not a thing that I would have told you that I felt particularly strong in you that I felt particularly strong in you that I felt particularly strong in or well equipped for. Now, looking back, or well equipped for. Now, looking back, or well equipped for. Now, looking back, my mother was a good listener. I had had my mother was a good listener. I had had my mother was a good listener. I had had two really good listeners for pastors two really good listeners for pastors two really good listeners for pastors and I sort of picked up some skills from and I sort of picked up some skills from and I sort of picked up some skills from from that that really served me well. I from that that really served me well. I from that that really served me well. I first first place that I served was was first first place that I served was was first first place that I served was was in youth ministry. and you you listen to in youth ministry. and you you listen to in youth ministry. and you you listen to a lot of specific kind of adolescent a lot of specific kind of adolescent a lot of specific kind of adolescent related issues in life and I'm not sure related issues in life and I'm not sure related issues in life and I'm not sure I was particularly helpful. I you know I was particularly helpful. I you know I was particularly helpful. I you know if I if I had had somebody like Deepak if I if I had had somebody like Deepak if I if I had had somebody like Deepak to teach me in seminary I would have to teach me in seminary I would have to teach me in seminary I would have been a lot more helpful but I did I been a lot more helpful but I did I been a lot more helpful but I did I think I listened pretty well. I I just think I listened pretty well. I I just think I listened pretty well. I I just sort of had to make my way and do the sort of had to make my way and do the sort of had to make my way and do the best I could. And it's interesting, best I could. And it's interesting, best I could. And it's interesting, secular counselors will tell you that secular counselors will tell you that secular counselors will tell you that far and away more important than their far and away more important than their far and away more important than their theories of counseling is the theories of counseling is the theories of counseling is the relationship between the counselor and relationship between the counselor and relationship between the counselor and the and the person who's come for the and the person who's come for the and the person who's come for counsel. And if if a person feels like counsel. And if if a person feels like counsel. And if if a person feels like you care about them and that you want to you care about them and that you want to you care about them and that you want to help them, it that gets you a long way help them, it that gets you a long way help them, it that gets you a long way down the road in getting people to a

down the road in getting people to a down the road in getting people to a better place in their life. Now, look, I better place in their life. Now, look, I better place in their life. Now, look, I was constantly reaching out to other was constantly reaching out to other was constantly reaching out to other pastors and professors for wisdom. I I pastors and professors for wisdom. I I pastors and professors for wisdom. I I think I may have told you this story, think I may have told you this story, think I may have told you this story, Matt, but one night at about 10:00 after Matt, but one night at about 10:00 after Matt, but one night at about 10:00 after a Bible study, one of my 10th grade a Bible study, one of my 10th grade a Bible study, one of my 10th grade girls called me up. Her father was dying girls called me up. Her father was dying girls called me up. Her father was dying of brain cancer. We had been studying of brain cancer. We had been studying of brain cancer. We had been studying through the book of through the book of through the book of >> Job together and she said, "You know, >> Job together and she said, "You know, >> Job together and she said, "You know, Lig, I've I've been praying that the Lig, I've I've been praying that the Lig, I've I've been praying that the Lord would grow me in grace and I'm Lord would grow me in grace and I'm Lord would grow me in grace and I'm afraid that this is the way that the afraid that this is the way that the afraid that this is the way that the Lord has answered my prayer. He's given Lord has answered my prayer. He's given Lord has answered my prayer. He's given my dad brain cancer and I'm I'm almost my dad brain cancer and I'm I'm almost my dad brain cancer and I'm I'm almost afraid to pray that prayer again." Well, afraid to pray that prayer again." Well, afraid to pray that prayer again." Well, I had no idea what to say to Kathy in I had no idea what to say to Kathy in I had no idea what to say to Kathy in that context. So, I called my systematic that context. So, I called my systematic that context. So, I called my systematic theology professor up at 10:30 at night. theology professor up at 10:30 at night. theology professor up at 10:30 at night. He had been a pastor and and I said, He had been a pastor and and I said, He had been a pastor and and I said, "I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I "I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I "I'm so sorry to interrupt you, but I have no idea what to say to this young have no idea what to say to this young have no idea what to say to this young woman." And I'm sure that had I had a woman." And I'm sure that had I had a woman." And I'm sure that had I had a class with Deepac or with David Palison, class with Deepac or with David Palison, class with Deepac or with David Palison, I would have been better equipped to I would have been better equipped to I would have been better equipped to answer that that kind of question and be answer that that kind of question and be answer that that kind of question and be supportive and helpful to her. But we supportive and helpful to her. But we supportive and helpful to her. But we definitely have more resources today, definitely have more resources today, definitely have more resources today, Matt, for young pastors as they're going Matt, for young pastors as they're going Matt, for young pastors as they're going out uh to to do this work. When I came out uh to to do this work. When I came out uh to to do this work. When I came to First Press, I had a lot of help from to First Press, I had a lot of help from to First Press, I had a lot of help from older, wiser heads.

older, wiser heads. older, wiser heads. >> Um, I had two older ministers on the >> Um, I had two older ministers on the >> Um, I had two older ministers on the staff who had gone through so much life staff who had gone through so much life staff who had gone through so much life that I mean, I was 35 years old. Ann and that I mean, I was 35 years old. Ann and that I mean, I was 35 years old. Ann and I didn't have children. I mean, I I look I didn't have children. I mean, I I look I didn't have children. I mean, I I look back on some of the things that I said back on some of the things that I said back on some of the things that I said to young couples when I was a single man to young couples when I was a single man to young couples when I was a single man and I just shake my head or I I I look and I just shake my head or I I I look and I just shake my head or I I I look back to things that I told parents back to things that I told parents back to things that I told parents before I had children and I just shake before I had children and I just shake before I had children and I just shake my head. But I did have older men that I my head. But I did have older men that I my head. But I did have older men that I could rely on. And I would say to could rely on. And I would say to could rely on. And I would say to anybody who's here and you've not been anybody who's here and you've not been anybody who's here and you've not been able to go through and have somebody able to go through and have somebody able to go through and have somebody from like CCF or have somebody uh like from like CCF or have somebody uh like from like CCF or have somebody uh like David Palison or DPAC or Jeremy is David Palison or DPAC or Jeremy is David Palison or DPAC or Jeremy is another guy. I I call Jeremy all the another guy. I I call Jeremy all the another guy. I I call Jeremy all the time for for advice. time for for advice. time for for advice. >> Jeremy Pierre Pierre. Yeah. You know, uh >> Jeremy Pierre Pierre. Yeah. You know, uh >> Jeremy Pierre Pierre. Yeah. You know, uh there's so many wonderful re Jim Newheer there's so many wonderful re Jim Newheer there's so many wonderful re Jim Newheer at RTS Jackson. I call Jim regularly at RTS Jackson. I call Jim regularly at RTS Jackson. I call Jim regularly asking for help in counseling and he's asking for help in counseling and he's asking for help in counseling and he's so wise and he's seen so many things. So so wise and he's seen so many things. So so wise and he's seen so many things. So young pastors do have more resources young pastors do have more resources young pastors do have more resources than I have. But just do learn to reach than I have. But just do learn to reach than I have. But just do learn to reach out to people that you trust and who who out to people that you trust and who who out to people that you trust and who who are committed to the scriptures and are committed to the scriptures and are committed to the scriptures and they're committed to the kind of they're committed to the kind of they're committed to the kind of disciplehip that Deepak was just disciplehip that Deepak was just disciplehip that Deepak was just describing and they've just got more describing and they've just got more describing and they've just got more wisdom and experience in that area.

wisdom and experience in that area. wisdom and experience in that area. >> Yeah. Matt, could I build on that and >> Yeah. Matt, could I build on that and >> Yeah. Matt, could I build on that and just to say uh I I learned the first few just to say uh I I learned the first few just to say uh I I learned the first few years of pastoral ministry by being years of pastoral ministry by being years of pastoral ministry by being alongside a brother you both would know, alongside a brother you both would know, alongside a brother you both would know, Michael Lawrence. Michael Lawrence. Michael Lawrence. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who had been there a number of years >> Who had been there a number of years >> Who had been there a number of years before me. I have living templates to before me. I have living templates to before me. I have living templates to this day. this day. this day. While I was in the room, watch Michael While I was in the room, watch Michael While I was in the room, watch Michael work with people ways that I could have work with people ways that I could have work with people ways that I could have never gotten out of the hundreds of never gotten out of the hundreds of never gotten out of the hundreds of pages I read in counseling books in pages I read in counseling books in pages I read in counseling books in seminary. seminary. seminary. And I, you know, I had a PhD in And I, you know, I had a PhD in And I, you know, I had a PhD in counseling by the time I showed up at counseling by the time I showed up at counseling by the time I showed up at CBC. And yet I was learning things in CBC. And yet I was learning things in CBC. And yet I was learning things in the first few years by simply watching the first few years by simply watching the first few years by simply watching Michael, an older, experienced pastor Michael, an older, experienced pastor Michael, an older, experienced pastor work. I think that's one of the best work. I think that's one of the best work. I think that's one of the best ways to get training. ways to get training. ways to get training. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Is simply get in the room with an older, >> Is simply get in the room with an older, >> Is simply get in the room with an older, wiser pastor, and you will walk away wiser pastor, and you will walk away wiser pastor, and you will walk away with with with >> information that you'll carry for >> information that you'll carry for >> information that you'll carry for decades decades decades >> that will help you in an infinite number >> that will help you in an infinite number >> that will help you in an infinite number of scenarios. Mhm. of scenarios. Mhm. of scenarios. Mhm. >> And if I can just throw this out, I know >> And if I can just throw this out, I know >> And if I can just throw this out, I know this is not the direction we're going this is not the direction we're going this is not the direction we're going today, Matt, but a a wise counselor like today, Matt, but a a wise counselor like today, Matt, but a a wise counselor like Deepac, like Jim Newheiser, like Jeremy Deepac, like Jim Newheiser, like Jeremy Deepac, like Jim Newheiser, like Jeremy Pierre, they're not only helpful when Pierre, they're not only helpful when Pierre, they're not only helpful when you're counseling a couple or an you're counseling a couple or an you're counseling a couple or an individual. They're actually helpful individual. They're actually helpful individual. They're actually helpful when you're dealing with whole groups of when you're dealing with whole groups of when you're dealing with whole groups of people like elders or deacons. Uh I I people like elders or deacons. Uh I I people like elders or deacons. Uh I I can't tell you how many times I call Jim can't tell you how many times I call Jim can't tell you how many times I call Jim Newheiser when there is a church Newheiser when there is a church Newheiser when there is a church situation that needs wisdom. And the situation that needs wisdom. And the situation that needs wisdom. And the same wisdom that he has for working with

same wisdom that he has for working with same wisdom that he has for working with couples that are getting married, couples that are getting married, couples that are getting married, couples that are married and are having couples that are married and are having couples that are married and are having problems, individuals in church that are problems, individuals in church that are problems, individuals in church that are struggling with things, the same wisdom struggling with things, the same wisdom struggling with things, the same wisdom that he has and that it plays out that he has and that it plays out that he has and that it plays out corporately with bodies of Christians. corporately with bodies of Christians. corporately with bodies of Christians. So I I am often calling wise biblical So I I am often calling wise biblical So I I am often calling wise biblical counselors for help. How do we how do we counselors for help. How do we how do we counselors for help. How do we how do we get folks on this team working together get folks on this team working together get folks on this team working together again? How did we get, you know, what again? How did we get, you know, what again? How did we get, you know, what what what do I need to do uh to help us what what do I need to do uh to help us what what do I need to do uh to help us trust one another again or process a trust one another again or process a trust one another again or process a really hard thing together? Actually, really hard thing together? Actually, really hard thing together? Actually, these skills are applicable to a lot of these skills are applicable to a lot of these skills are applicable to a lot of things in pastoral ministry. things in pastoral ministry. things in pastoral ministry. >> And I would say it's probably counseling >> And I would say it's probably counseling >> And I would say it's probably counseling meetings that most quickly humble a new meetings that most quickly humble a new meetings that most quickly humble a new pastor. But you emerge from seminary pastor. But you emerge from seminary pastor. But you emerge from seminary brimming with answers brimming with answers brimming with answers >> and you emerge from your first few >> and you emerge from your first few >> and you emerge from your first few counseling meetings brimming with counseling meetings brimming with counseling meetings brimming with questions questions questions >> and that's why I'm just so grateful uh >> and that's why I'm just so grateful uh >> and that's why I'm just so grateful uh for the wealth of resources that we have for the wealth of resources that we have for the wealth of resources that we have today uh through the ministry of today uh through the ministry of today uh through the ministry of brothers like you Deepac at one point in brothers like you Deepac at one point in brothers like you Deepac at one point in your book with written with Jeremy your book with written with Jeremy your book with written with Jeremy Pierre the pastor in counseling you Pierre the pastor in counseling you Pierre the pastor in counseling you write quote we should strive to make write quote we should strive to make write quote we should strive to make church a place where being anonymous or church a place where being anonymous or church a place where being anonymous or nominal nominal nominal is difficult to pull off. Elaborate what is difficult to pull off. Elaborate what is difficult to pull off. Elaborate what on what you mean.

on what you mean. on what you mean. >> Yeah. So, we had a we had a young guy >> Yeah. So, we had a we had a young guy >> Yeah. So, we had a we had a young guy who would show up in the CHB sanctuary. who would show up in the CHB sanctuary. who would show up in the CHB sanctuary. I sat across our family sat across from I sat across our family sat across from I sat across our family sat across from him and you can guess when he showed up. him and you can guess when he showed up. him and you can guess when he showed up. He showed up during the first song and He showed up during the first song and He showed up during the first song and he always left at that final hymn. And he always left at that final hymn. And he always left at that final hymn. And what I loved is that I would watch the what I loved is that I would watch the what I loved is that I would watch the members queue in on him. And it started members queue in on him. And it started members queue in on him. And it started with first members would catch him on with first members would catch him on with first members would catch him on the way out and then members would take the way out and then members would take the way out and then members would take him out for lunch. Members would start him out for lunch. Members would start him out for lunch. Members would start building into his life and eventually building into his life and eventually building into his life and eventually they asked him why don't you join? He they asked him why don't you join? He they asked him why don't you join? He did join. He told me this is a really did join. He told me this is a really did join. He told me this is a really hard place to be an anonymous Christian. hard place to be an anonymous Christian. hard place to be an anonymous Christian. M. M. M. >> And so what I loved is it wasn't the >> And so what I loved is it wasn't the >> And so what I loved is it wasn't the paid pastoral staff who went after that paid pastoral staff who went after that paid pastoral staff who went after that guy. It was the congregation guy. It was the congregation guy. It was the congregation that understood that someone wasn't that understood that someone wasn't that understood that someone wasn't connected, noticed it, and pursued it. connected, noticed it, and pursued it. connected, noticed it, and pursued it. If I spent all my time pursuing all the If I spent all my time pursuing all the If I spent all my time pursuing all the people who were on the fringes, I would people who were on the fringes, I would people who were on the fringes, I would pull my hair out. But fortunately, I pull my hair out. But fortunately, I pull my hair out. But fortunately, I don't have any more hair, so I don't don't have any more hair, so I don't don't have any more hair, so I don't have to worry about that issue anymore.

have to worry about that issue anymore. have to worry about that issue anymore. But it it is it it is uh it is something But it it is it it is uh it is something But it it is it it is uh it is something that pastors end up doing. It piles on that pastors end up doing. It piles on that pastors end up doing. It piles on their shoulders alone. So you're trying their shoulders alone. So you're trying their shoulders alone. So you're trying to build in this sense of one anothering to build in this sense of one anothering to build in this sense of one anothering in the church as a whole so that there in the church as a whole so that there in the church as a whole so that there are no isolated Christians. I can't get are no isolated Christians. I can't get are no isolated Christians. I can't get to every person in the church but the to every person in the church but the to every person in the church but the congregation can. Congregation can help congregation can. Congregation can help congregation can. Congregation can help us get to especially those people on the us get to especially those people on the us get to especially those people on the fringes. the people who are hurting and fringes. the people who are hurting and fringes. the people who are hurting and sometimes the people who are hurting are sometimes the people who are hurting are sometimes the people who are hurting are isolated and that contributes to the isolated and that contributes to the isolated and that contributes to the reason why they're hurting and so reason why they're hurting and so reason why they're hurting and so therefore they need to be connected. Uh therefore they need to be connected. Uh therefore they need to be connected. Uh sometimes the people who are actually in sometimes the people who are actually in sometimes the people who are actually in deep sin, you know, the sin pulls them deep sin, you know, the sin pulls them deep sin, you know, the sin pulls them away from the congregation and that's away from the congregation and that's away from the congregation and that's why they need to be more connected. So why they need to be more connected. So why they need to be more connected. So that's what I essentially I meant by it. that's what I essentially I meant by it. that's what I essentially I meant by it. I often think of that story when I say I often think of that story when I say I often think of that story when I say or I wrote that particular line. or I wrote that particular line. or I wrote that particular line. >> Yeah. What I take from that quote is >> Yeah. What I take from that quote is >> Yeah. What I take from that quote is that a vibrant counseling ministry, at that a vibrant counseling ministry, at that a vibrant counseling ministry, at least a faithful counseling ministry, is least a faithful counseling ministry, is least a faithful counseling ministry, is not going to be possible apart from not going to be possible apart from not going to be possible apart from meaningful church membership.

meaningful church membership. meaningful church membership. >> Yeah. Um, I feel like something that >> Yeah. Um, I feel like something that >> Yeah. Um, I feel like something that most pastors listening to this podcast most pastors listening to this podcast most pastors listening to this podcast understand and teach would be, hey, uh, understand and teach would be, hey, uh, understand and teach would be, hey, uh, Ephesians 4, we as pastors don't exist Ephesians 4, we as pastors don't exist Ephesians 4, we as pastors don't exist to do all the work of ministry for our to do all the work of ministry for our to do all the work of ministry for our members, but rather to equip them. Uh, members, but rather to equip them. Uh, members, but rather to equip them. Uh, we're the supply line, they're the front we're the supply line, they're the front we're the supply line, they're the front line. But something that I think can be line. But something that I think can be line. But something that I think can be underemphasized is that we're not just underemphasized is that we're not just underemphasized is that we're not just wanting to equip our members to have wanting to equip our members to have wanting to equip our members to have quiet times and practice spiritual quiet times and practice spiritual quiet times and practice spiritual disciplines. As important as that is, disciplines. As important as that is, disciplines. As important as that is, we're wanting to equip them with a we're wanting to equip them with a we're wanting to equip them with a vision for Christianity, a vision for vision for Christianity, a vision for vision for Christianity, a vision for the Christian life in which they view it the Christian life in which they view it the Christian life in which they view it as their responsibility to take care of as their responsibility to take care of as their responsibility to take care of one another. It's not just the pastor's one another. It's not just the pastor's one another. It's not just the pastor's job u to shepherd, to counsel, to bear job u to shepherd, to counsel, to bear job u to shepherd, to counsel, to bear burdens, but church membership is burdens, but church membership is burdens, but church membership is saying, "I am my brother's keeper. I am saying, "I am my brother's keeper. I am saying, "I am my brother's keeper. I am my sister's keeper, and they are mine."

my sister's keeper, and they are mine." my sister's keeper, and they are mine." So, I love that note that uh that you So, I love that note that uh that you So, I love that note that uh that you sounded. sounded. sounded. >> Yeah. And I could take it one step >> Yeah. And I could take it one step >> Yeah. And I could take it one step further, Matt. Most members will be further, Matt. Most members will be further, Matt. Most members will be willing to step into discipling, willing to step into discipling, willing to step into discipling, you know, helping others grow in Christ, you know, helping others grow in Christ, you know, helping others grow in Christ, studying the Bible, praying. The way studying the Bible, praying. The way studying the Bible, praying. The way I've pushed it a little bit further is I've pushed it a little bit further is I've pushed it a little bit further is to be able to say, you know, the friend to be able to say, you know, the friend to be able to say, you know, the friend who has cancer or the friend whose who has cancer or the friend whose who has cancer or the friend whose marriage is falling apart or the friend marriage is falling apart or the friend marriage is falling apart or the friend who's hooked on pornography who's hooked on pornography who's hooked on pornography >> or the young lady who's got an eating >> or the young lady who's got an eating >> or the young lady who's got an eating disorder, most members are scared when disorder, most members are scared when disorder, most members are scared when they hear those kinds of situations and they hear those kinds of situations and they hear those kinds of situations and problems and assume they just got to problems and assume they just got to problems and assume they just got to call the pastor, that the pastor's got call the pastor, that the pastor's got call the pastor, that the pastor's got all the skills to do that. I want the all the skills to do that. I want the all the skills to do that. I want the members to think, no, part of my members to think, no, part of my members to think, no, part of my responsibility is to be able to responsibility is to be able to responsibility is to be able to contribute. I'm not the counselor, but I contribute. I'm not the counselor, but I contribute. I'm not the counselor, but I can contribute to the care of those can contribute to the care of those can contribute to the care of those people who are suffering and those people who are suffering and those people who are suffering and those people who are struggling with people who are struggling with people who are struggling with significant sin in the congregation. And significant sin in the congregation. And significant sin in the congregation. And that's what I loved about building a that's what I loved about building a that's what I loved about building a culture of discipling.

culture of discipling. culture of discipling. Counseling builds on that culture. If Counseling builds on that culture. If Counseling builds on that culture. If you begin to understand how to invest in you begin to understand how to invest in you begin to understand how to invest in others, then you begin to understand how others, then you begin to understand how others, then you begin to understand how to get involved in some of the hard to get involved in some of the hard to get involved in some of the hard things. It's the next natural step for a things. It's the next natural step for a things. It's the next natural step for a church member to begin to do that. But church member to begin to do that. But church member to begin to do that. But we got to think in terms of pastors how we got to think in terms of pastors how we got to think in terms of pastors how to equip our members because when the to equip our members because when the to equip our members because when the friend shows up and says, "My marriage friend shows up and says, "My marriage friend shows up and says, "My marriage is falling apart." A lot of members is falling apart." A lot of members is falling apart." A lot of members don't know what to say or do. And so don't know what to say or do. And so don't know what to say or do. And so building the bridge from what scripture building the bridge from what scripture building the bridge from what scripture says into that moment is one of the says into that moment is one of the says into that moment is one of the greatest things you could do with your greatest things you could do with your greatest things you could do with your application your sermons is helping them application your sermons is helping them application your sermons is helping them to understand when the suffering person to understand when the suffering person to understand when the suffering person shows up. Here's how scripture speaks to shows up. Here's how scripture speaks to shows up. Here's how scripture speaks to that situation and you as a member the that situation and you as a member the that situation and you as a member the one anothering text apply to you in one anothering text apply to you in one anothering text apply to you in stepping in some of these hard things. stepping in some of these hard things. stepping in some of these hard things. And whether they want it or not it's And whether they want it or not it's And whether they want it or not it's still going to show up in their life. still going to show up in their life. still going to show up in their life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're going to have family members and >> They're going to have family members and >> They're going to have family members and friends who are going through those hard friends who are going through those hard friends who are going through those hard things. So, they're going to want to things. So, they're going to want to things. So, they're going to want to practically know what to do. practically know what to do. practically know what to do. >> I'm glad you mentioned sermon >> I'm glad you mentioned sermon >> I'm glad you mentioned sermon application even in passing because I application even in passing because I application even in passing because I actually think that so much of sermon actually think that so much of sermon actually think that so much of sermon application is just biblical counseling application is just biblical counseling application is just biblical counseling in public. And in public. And in public. And >> so I would encourage everyday pastors >> so I would encourage everyday pastors >> so I would encourage everyday pastors listening in read the work of counselors listening in read the work of counselors listening in read the work of counselors because they have particular experience because they have particular experience because they have particular experience and expertise with being those surgeons and expertise with being those surgeons and expertise with being those surgeons of the soul climbing into people's of the soul climbing into people's of the soul climbing into people's hearts and frankly just slowing down hearts and frankly just slowing down hearts and frankly just slowing down enough to notice what's there and to

enough to notice what's there and to enough to notice what's there and to point people to the hope of the gospel. point people to the hope of the gospel. point people to the hope of the gospel. Let me say it also Let me say it also Let me say it also having people open their hearts and having people open their hearts and having people open their hearts and lives to you and and work through their lives to you and and work through their lives to you and and work through their struggles with sin helps the pastor be struggles with sin helps the pastor be struggles with sin helps the pastor be able to apply the scripture in a in a able to apply the scripture in a in a able to apply the scripture in a in a sharper uh way that that helps people. sharper uh way that that helps people. sharper uh way that that helps people. Wow, he's actually talking about a real Wow, he's actually talking about a real Wow, he's actually talking about a real situation. This isn't some illustration situation. This isn't some illustration situation. This isn't some illustration he read in a book from a hundred years he read in a book from a hundred years he read in a book from a hundred years old. He actually knows the process that old. He actually knows the process that old. He actually knows the process that I'm going through in my own heart and I'm going through in my own heart and I'm going through in my own heart and mind uh right now. And I and I will say mind uh right now. And I and I will say mind uh right now. And I and I will say I've learned a lot about application I've learned a lot about application I've learned a lot about application just from talking to people, working just from talking to people, working just from talking to people, working through hard things and knowing the through hard things and knowing the through hard things and knowing the kinds of things that they struggle with kinds of things that they struggle with kinds of things that they struggle with and knowing the things that they think and knowing the things that they think and knowing the things that they think about. about. about. >> Now Ligan f true or false like if you >> Now Ligan f true or false like if you >> Now Ligan f true or false like if you have those conversations with your have those conversations with your have those conversations with your members, your application will become members, your application will become members, your application will become richer because you've gotten involved in richer because you've gotten involved in richer because you've gotten involved in the lives of your people.

CHBC CHBC is 32 years of age average somewhere is 32 years of age average somewhere is 32 years of age average somewhere around there. So there's a lot of 30 20s around there. So there's a lot of 30 20s around there. So there's a lot of 30 20s and 30 year olds, some 40 year olds. and 30 year olds, some 40 year olds. and 30 year olds, some 40 year olds. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Um I've shifted a congregation that has >> Um I've shifted a congregation that has >> Um I've shifted a congregation that has a lot more seniors. We have young people a lot more seniors. We have young people a lot more seniors. We have young people and college students. So I'm now facing and college students. So I'm now facing and college students. So I'm now facing end of life issues in a way that I end of life issues in a way that I end of life issues in a way that I didn't when I was in DC. didn't when I was in DC. didn't when I was in DC. >> Yeah. I'm surrounded by a lot more >> Yeah. I'm surrounded by a lot more >> Yeah. I'm surrounded by a lot more cancer, a lot more the last 10 years of cancer, a lot more the last 10 years of cancer, a lot more the last 10 years of our life, a lot more seniors and second our life, a lot more seniors and second our life, a lot more seniors and second marriages because a spouse died. marriages because a spouse died. marriages because a spouse died. >> Uh it's it's a whole new >> Uh it's it's a whole new >> Uh it's it's a whole new >> kind of congregation I'm ministering to, >> kind of congregation I'm ministering to, >> kind of congregation I'm ministering to, which means my application has changed. which means my application has changed. which means my application has changed. >> Deepac, how should a pastor think >> Deepac, how should a pastor think >> Deepac, how should a pastor think through getting something started maybe through getting something started maybe through getting something started maybe a little more formally in his church? a little more formally in his church? a little more formally in his church? Obviously, he wants members organically Obviously, he wants members organically Obviously, he wants members organically taking initiative in the lives of one taking initiative in the lives of one taking initiative in the lives of one another, but what might it look like for another, but what might it look like for another, but what might it look like for a pastor to take the lead in starting a pastor to take the lead in starting a pastor to take the lead in starting some kind of lay counseling training or some kind of lay counseling training or some kind of lay counseling training or or program? or program? or program? >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, >> Yeah, that's a great question. I mean, the the first thing as you mentioned the the first thing as you mentioned the the first thing as you mentioned earlier, there are abundance of earlier, there are abundance of earlier, there are abundance of resources that are available. So whether resources that are available. So whether resources that are available. So whether you are giving books away or the new you are giving books away or the new you are giving books away or the new growth press little booklets uh growth press little booklets uh growth press little booklets uh gospelsiz digestion of counseling issues gospelsiz digestion of counseling issues gospelsiz digestion of counseling issues to larger books to now videos, podcasts, to larger books to now videos, podcasts, to larger books to now videos, podcasts, blog posts, there's a lot of content blog posts, there's a lot of content blog posts, there's a lot of content available that you can highlight for available that you can highlight for available that you can highlight for your congregation and start handing over your congregation and start handing over your congregation and start handing over as you give them opportunity. So I

as you give them opportunity. So I as you give them opportunity. So I handed a copy of Good and Angry, David handed a copy of Good and Angry, David handed a copy of Good and Angry, David Pollson's book, which is a masterpiece, Pollson's book, which is a masterpiece, Pollson's book, which is a masterpiece, to an older gentleman in the to an older gentleman in the to an older gentleman in the congregation on Sunday and told him, congregation on Sunday and told him, congregation on Sunday and told him, "This is the best thing I ever read on "This is the best thing I ever read on "This is the best thing I ever read on the topic." I'm handing out tools to the topic." I'm handing out tools to the topic." I'm handing out tools to people to begin to develop a culture of people to begin to develop a culture of people to begin to develop a culture of care for others. So that's resources is care for others. So that's resources is care for others. So that's resources is number one. Be conscious of the number one. Be conscious of the number one. Be conscious of the resources, hand them out. And every time resources, hand them out. And every time resources, hand them out. And every time somebody in the church, somebody in the church, somebody in the church, >> which pastor may mean you need to have a >> which pastor may mean you need to have a >> which pastor may mean you need to have a line item in your budget, line item in your budget, line item in your budget, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> for disciplehip resources. So, not just >> for disciplehip resources. So, not just >> for disciplehip resources. So, not just a kind of personal book budget um as as a kind of personal book budget um as as a kind of personal book budget um as as you're buying commentaries for sermon you're buying commentaries for sermon you're buying commentaries for sermon prep, but also something that will go prep, but also something that will go prep, but also something that will go toward being able to be a church that's toward being able to be a church that's toward being able to be a church that's developing a culture of reading, a developing a culture of reading, a developing a culture of reading, a culture of um facilitating the culture of um facilitating the culture of um facilitating the engagement with good books together. engagement with good books together. engagement with good books together. >> Yeah. And every time I hand it out, I'm >> Yeah. And every time I hand it out, I'm >> Yeah. And every time I hand it out, I'm commending other people to think about commending other people to think about commending other people to think about it. I'm surprised when I hold it up how it. I'm surprised when I hold it up how it. I'm surprised when I hold it up how many people will buy a copy on Amazon many people will buy a copy on Amazon many people will buy a copy on Amazon for themselves also and how quickly that for themselves also and how quickly that for themselves also and how quickly that that effect multiplies within the that effect multiplies within the that effect multiplies within the congregation. The other thing to do is congregation. The other thing to do is congregation. The other thing to do is if you have mature members, if you have mature members, if you have mature members, >> I found a pastor who likes his members >> I found a pastor who likes his members >> I found a pastor who likes his members being on their phones while he's being on their phones while he's being on their phones while he's talking.

talking. talking. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. >> That's right. That's right. uh if if you have mature members, mature uh if if you have mature members, mature uh if if you have mature members, mature community group leaders or small group community group leaders or small group community group leaders or small group leaders, I think the the curriculum from leaders, I think the the curriculum from leaders, I think the the curriculum from New Growth Press that's captured CCF's New Growth Press that's captured CCF's New Growth Press that's captured CCF's really curriculum at a lay person level. really curriculum at a lay person level. really curriculum at a lay person level. So they got uh they have how people So they got uh they have how people So they got uh they have how people change by Paul Trip and in a small group change by Paul Trip and in a small group change by Paul Trip and in a small group format and a chapter book format or format and a chapter book format or format and a chapter book format or instruments redeemer hand by Paul Trip instruments redeemer hand by Paul Trip instruments redeemer hand by Paul Trip in a small group format or chapter book in a small group format or chapter book in a small group format or chapter book format. I've taught the small group format. I've taught the small group format. I've taught the small group format for years, but you can hand it to format for years, but you can hand it to format for years, but you can hand it to a small group leader. They're so user a small group leader. They're so user a small group leader. They're so user friendly that they could run with it and friendly that they could run with it and friendly that they could run with it and right there they're beginning to sew right there they're beginning to sew right there they're beginning to sew seeds. What I like about the small group seeds. What I like about the small group seeds. What I like about the small group format is that it gets into the weeds of format is that it gets into the weeds of format is that it gets into the weeds of people's lives. They're not just reading people's lives. They're not just reading people's lives. They're not just reading content, they're beginning to digest the content, they're beginning to digest the content, they're beginning to digest the material and apply it to their life material and apply it to their life material and apply it to their life because it's filled with application because it's filled with application because it's filled with application questions. If you don't have any room to questions. If you don't have any room to questions. If you don't have any room to be training yourself, you can hand it to be training yourself, you can hand it to be training yourself, you can hand it to mature people within your church.

mature people within your church. mature people within your church. There's lots of good resources to hand There's lots of good resources to hand There's lots of good resources to hand over and they can run with it. If you over and they can run with it. If you over and they can run with it. If you think, uh, I don't know that I have think, uh, I don't know that I have think, uh, I don't know that I have people who are ready, but they're kind people who are ready, but they're kind people who are ready, but they're kind of ready. Well, then take one semester, of ready. Well, then take one semester, of ready. Well, then take one semester, gather your most mature leaders, take gather your most mature leaders, take gather your most mature leaders, take them through the curriculum, which is 12 them through the curriculum, which is 12 them through the curriculum, which is 12 weeks each one of the books. There are weeks each one of the books. There are weeks each one of the books. There are two books that cover the core curriculum two books that cover the core curriculum two books that cover the core curriculum of CCF, the key first two classes. of CCF, the key first two classes. of CCF, the key first two classes. >> Again, these are how people change >> Again, these are how people change >> Again, these are how people change >> and instruments in the redeemer's hands. >> and instruments in the redeemer's hands. >> and instruments in the redeemer's hands. >> Yeah, there's other curriculum that's >> Yeah, there's other curriculum that's >> Yeah, there's other curriculum that's out there. This is just this is how to out there. This is just this is how to out there. This is just this is how to start in your own local church. If you start in your own local church. If you start in your own local church. If you can't get out to a conference, if you can't get out to a conference, if you can't get out to a conference, if you can't do more formal training, can't do more formal training, can't do more formal training, >> then you set the goal of some people in >> then you set the goal of some people in >> then you set the goal of some people in that group will then take the curriculum that group will then take the curriculum that group will then take the curriculum and go teach it in their own small group and go teach it in their own small group and go teach it in their own small group afterwards. And it's that multiplying afterwards. And it's that multiplying afterwards. And it's that multiplying effect where you take one semester and effect where you take one semester and effect where you take one semester and train them and then they go out and they train them and then they go out and they train them and then they go out and they do that with others. But I've been do that with others. But I've been do that with others. But I've been surprised how quickly people grab hold surprised how quickly people grab hold surprised how quickly people grab hold of that material and do that. Then the of that material and do that. Then the of that material and do that. Then the third one is will get people out to third one is will get people out to third one is will get people out to conferences or do online training. CCF's conferences or do online training. CCF's conferences or do online training. CCF's uh certificate program is a much shorter uh certificate program is a much shorter uh certificate program is a much shorter version than the masters and it's version than the masters and it's version than the masters and it's dominated by lay people who recognize dominated by lay people who recognize dominated by lay people who recognize they're running into these problems and they're running into these problems and they're running into these problems and they need more equipping.

they need more equipping. they need more equipping. >> And the faculty at CCF would often tell >> And the faculty at CCF would often tell >> And the faculty at CCF would often tell me some of the best questions come from me some of the best questions come from me some of the best questions come from the people who are out there in the the people who are out there in the the people who are out there in the world right now facing these problems world right now facing these problems world right now facing these problems and trying to figure out right now. So and trying to figure out right now. So and trying to figure out right now. So the certificates are easy to add in. the certificates are easy to add in. the certificates are easy to add in. They're all online. They're deliberately They're all online. They're deliberately They're all online. They're deliberately that way so that people don't have to that way so that people don't have to that way so that people don't have to uproot themselves. And that's another uproot themselves. And that's another uproot themselves. And that's another example of there are online training example of there are online training example of there are online training that's available in abundance that you that's available in abundance that you that's available in abundance that you can take from your own setting. And if can take from your own setting. And if can take from your own setting. And if you can find one or two mature leaders you can find one or two mature leaders you can find one or two mature leaders within your church who are willing to do within your church who are willing to do within your church who are willing to do that, that's the start of people who that, that's the start of people who that, that's the start of people who could begin to train. And then the key could begin to train. And then the key could begin to train. And then the key thing after that, if you get all that thing after that, if you get all that thing after that, if you get all that done, train and train and train and done, train and train and train and done, train and train and train and train because as people are taught these train because as people are taught these train because as people are taught these things, it changes the DNA of the things, it changes the DNA of the things, it changes the DNA of the congregation. congregation. congregation. >> I'm actually just looking up right now >> I'm actually just looking up right now >> I'm actually just looking up right now on ccef.org. on ccef.org. on ccef.org. You can go there and get more You can go there and get more You can go there and get more information about this certificate that information about this certificate that information about this certificate that Deepac's talking about. Also, Deepac's talking about. Also, Deepac's talking about. Also, ccef.org/course org/course ccef.org/course org/course ccef.org/course org/course gives you a list of various courses that gives you a list of various courses that gives you a list of various courses that you could work through by yourself or you could work through by yourself or you could work through by yourself or with others in your congregation.

with others in your congregation. with others in your congregation. >> Yeah. And the the original classes by >> Yeah. And the the original classes by >> Yeah. And the the original classes by David Paulisonson for their first class David Paulisonson for their first class David Paulisonson for their first class is the lectures you will receive and is the lectures you will receive and is the lectures you will receive and they are gold. I mean they're they're they are gold. I mean they're they're they are gold. I mean they're they're really pure goal to to take in his really pure goal to to take in his really pure goal to to take in his wisdom but also begin to sort through wisdom but also begin to sort through wisdom but also begin to sort through your own heart because once once it your own heart because once once it your own heart because once once it ministers to your own heart then you ministers to your own heart then you ministers to your own heart then you know much better how to care for other know much better how to care for other know much better how to care for other people. people. people. >> And I also want to ask you Deeppac about >> And I also want to ask you Deeppac about >> And I also want to ask you Deeppac about how pastors should think through how pastors should think through how pastors should think through counseling within the local church counseling within the local church counseling within the local church >> visav uh working with counseling centers >> visav uh working with counseling centers >> visav uh working with counseling centers online or in the community. Um, how online or in the community. Um, how online or in the community. Um, how would you encourage a pastor to think would you encourage a pastor to think would you encourage a pastor to think through that? And I'd also love you to through that? And I'd also love you to through that? And I'd also love you to talk about uh when you are going to work talk about uh when you are going to work talk about uh when you are going to work with a local or online counseling with a local or online counseling with a local or online counseling resource, what are you looking for to resource, what are you looking for to resource, what are you looking for to ensure that your members are going to be ensure that your members are going to be ensure that your members are going to be faithfully cared for? faithfully cared for? faithfully cared for? >> Yeah, great questions. So, I have a lot >> Yeah, great questions. So, I have a lot >> Yeah, great questions. So, I have a lot of sympathy for a guy who's in a of sympathy for a guy who's in a of sympathy for a guy who's in a congregation. He doesn't have that much congregation. He doesn't have that much congregation. He doesn't have that much help in terms of leadership. He's help in terms of leadership. He's help in terms of leadership. He's overwhelmed because he's revitalizing overwhelmed because he's revitalizing overwhelmed because he's revitalizing that church. So therefore, he's overrun.

that church. So therefore, he's overrun. that church. So therefore, he's overrun. And so to think he's going to take on a And so to think he's going to take on a And so to think he's going to take on a lot of hard counseling situations is lot of hard counseling situations is lot of hard counseling situations is unrealistic. unrealistic. unrealistic. >> Therefore, finding partners in your >> Therefore, finding partners in your >> Therefore, finding partners in your community is a really good thing to do. community is a really good thing to do. community is a really good thing to do. >> One of the wisest things to do is figure >> One of the wisest things to do is figure >> One of the wisest things to do is figure out what the other gospel- centered out what the other gospel- centered out what the other gospel- centered churches are in your community. Pick up churches are in your community. Pick up churches are in your community. Pick up the phone or text them because they will the phone or text them because they will the phone or text them because they will already have figured out who are the already have figured out who are the already have figured out who are the resources in their community. So don't resources in their community. So don't resources in their community. So don't reinvent the wheel. just go to the reinvent the wheel. just go to the reinvent the wheel. just go to the wiser, older pastors in your community wiser, older pastors in your community wiser, older pastors in your community and tell me, give me your list of people and tell me, give me your list of people and tell me, give me your list of people who you go to. That gets you down the who you go to. That gets you down the who you go to. That gets you down the road a lot further than you figuring it road a lot further than you figuring it road a lot further than you figuring it out. out. out. >> And again, that that you and League have >> And again, that that you and League have >> And again, that that you and League have both made. That's never been easier in both made. That's never been easier in both made. That's never been easier in church history church history church history >> than it is now to find these good >> than it is now to find these good >> than it is now to find these good resources and trusted voices. resources and trusted voices. resources and trusted voices. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Then once you have a list, >> Yeah. Yeah. Then once you have a list, >> Yeah. Yeah. Then once you have a list, there's two ways to go about it. Number there's two ways to go about it. Number there's two ways to go about it. Number one, you pick up the phone and call them one, you pick up the phone and call them one, you pick up the phone and call them or even better, take them out to lunch or even better, take them out to lunch or even better, take them out to lunch and hand them a stack of good books. And and hand them a stack of good books. And and hand them a stack of good books. And you'd be surprised what the Lord would you'd be surprised what the Lord would you'd be surprised what the Lord would do in opening up conversations. But you do in opening up conversations. But you do in opening up conversations. But you need to ask some questions about where need to ask some questions about where need to ask some questions about where they go to church, about their they go to church, about their they go to church, about their conversion, about what they do in the conversion, about what they do in the conversion, about what they do in the counseling room. Because some people counseling room. Because some people counseling room. Because some people will say they're counselors, and yet will say they're counselors, and yet will say they're counselors, and yet their Christianity doesn't touch what their Christianity doesn't touch what their Christianity doesn't touch what goes on in the room at all.

goes on in the room at all. goes on in the room at all. >> That's right. versus some people the >> That's right. versus some people the >> That's right. versus some people the gospel is integral to how they think gospel is integral to how they think gospel is integral to how they think about what they're doing when they come about what they're doing when they come about what they're doing when they come alongside sinners or sufferers. So you alongside sinners or sufferers. So you alongside sinners or sufferers. So you just got to get a feel for that. The just got to get a feel for that. The just got to get a feel for that. The other way if you just don't have time or other way if you just don't have time or other way if you just don't have time or they don't give you any time is as you they don't give you any time is as you they don't give you any time is as you start referring don't be disengaged. start referring don't be disengaged. start referring don't be disengaged. Don't hand it off. Make sure your Don't hand it off. Make sure your Don't hand it off. Make sure your members report back to you. So I will if members report back to you. So I will if members report back to you. So I will if I give a referral I will ask the member I give a referral I will ask the member I give a referral I will ask the member to just text me couple of sentences or to just text me couple of sentences or to just text me couple of sentences or give me a quick summary over email in give me a quick summary over email in give me a quick summary over email in the first few sessions. I will quickly the first few sessions. I will quickly the first few sessions. I will quickly get a sense of what they're getting. get a sense of what they're getting. get a sense of what they're getting. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Because if they get too far down the >> Because if they get too far down the >> Because if they get too far down the road because you're you're giving them road because you're you're giving them road because you're you're giving them another authoritative voice in their another authoritative voice in their another authoritative voice in their life. life. life. >> I do not want to hand off my sheep to >> I do not want to hand off my sheep to >> I do not want to hand off my sheep to authoritative voice that's going to lead authoritative voice that's going to lead authoritative voice that's going to lead them astray. them astray. them astray. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I I need to make sure to vet this >> So I I need to make sure to vet this >> So I I need to make sure to vet this first, but once they even get there, first, but once they even get there, first, but once they even get there, make sure they're getting fed Christc make sure they're getting fed Christc make sure they're getting fed Christc centered, god-honoring, wise counsel centered, god-honoring, wise counsel centered, god-honoring, wise counsel that will not lead them astray. Because that will not lead them astray. Because that will not lead them astray. Because the worst thing is it comes in conflict the worst thing is it comes in conflict the worst thing is it comes in conflict with what the elders think. You got this with what the elders think. You got this with what the elders think. You got this competing voice of authority with what competing voice of authority with what competing voice of authority with what our elders are guiding a person to do.

our elders are guiding a person to do. our elders are guiding a person to do. So you need to vet that. Be careful. So So you need to vet that. Be careful. So So you need to vet that. Be careful. So that I've gotten a lot of feedback from that I've gotten a lot of feedback from that I've gotten a lot of feedback from members over the years to get enough of members over the years to get enough of members over the years to get enough of a sense of who I'm willing to refer to a sense of who I'm willing to refer to a sense of who I'm willing to refer to or not. or not. or not. >> Good. But that runs parallel with do not >> Good. But that runs parallel with do not >> Good. But that runs parallel with do not do not hand everything and everybody off do not hand everything and everybody off do not hand everything and everybody off as much as you can slowly take a as much as you can slowly take a as much as you can slowly take a long-term view and build within your own long-term view and build within your own long-term view and build within your own congregation all the things we said congregation all the things we said congregation all the things we said about training and it's start small about training and it's start small about training and it's start small it'll be limited it'll take years to it'll be limited it'll take years to it'll be limited it'll take years to build but that's okay I mean I was I was build but that's okay I mean I was I was build but that's okay I mean I was I was in DC for close to 20 years in terms of in DC for close to 20 years in terms of in DC for close to 20 years in terms of staff work if I look back at the end of staff work if I look back at the end of staff work if I look back at the end of that versus what I started with. It was that versus what I started with. It was that versus what I started with. It was extraordinarily different. But I had no extraordinarily different. But I had no extraordinarily different. But I had no idea where I'd be 20 years later. It idea where I'd be 20 years later. It idea where I'd be 20 years later. It took every single year. It's slowly took every single year. It's slowly took every single year. It's slowly building over time. And then you'd be building over time. And then you'd be building over time. And then you'd be surprised what the Lord would do if surprised what the Lord would do if surprised what the Lord would do if you're willing to do a little bit of you're willing to do a little bit of you're willing to do a little bit of training, a little bit of teaching, hand training, a little bit of teaching, hand training, a little bit of teaching, hand out a little bit more resources, how out a little bit more resources, how out a little bit more resources, how people will catch on, people will catch on, people will catch on, will grow in their interest, will step will grow in their interest, will step will grow in their interest, will step forward and volunteer. And then you have forward and volunteer. And then you have forward and volunteer. And then you have things you can start building on.

things you can start building on. things you can start building on. >> I feel like this is uh uh something that >> I feel like this is uh uh something that >> I feel like this is uh uh something that Lick and I are constantly saying on this Lick and I are constantly saying on this Lick and I are constantly saying on this podcast in some form or another, and podcast in some form or another, and podcast in some form or another, and that's don't underestimate the slow drip that's don't underestimate the slow drip that's don't underestimate the slow drip long-term approach of this. long-term approach of this. long-term approach of this. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> We don't need to wait into all the deep >> We don't need to wait into all the deep >> We don't need to wait into all the deep waters around this issue, but there are waters around this issue, but there are waters around this issue, but there are some extreme examples of a a kind of some extreme examples of a a kind of some extreme examples of a a kind of exclusive view of biblical counseling. exclusive view of biblical counseling. exclusive view of biblical counseling. So some Christians before have said that So some Christians before have said that So some Christians before have said that for example depression or anxiety or for example depression or anxiety or for example depression or anxiety or even domestic abuse or things that can even domestic abuse or things that can even domestic abuse or things that can be treated kind of only via biblical be treated kind of only via biblical be treated kind of only via biblical teaching. Um and and often such voices teaching. Um and and often such voices teaching. Um and and often such voices would would say that no clinical would would say that no clinical would would say that no clinical psychologists or medications or psychologists or medications or psychologists or medications or authorities outside the church that you authorities outside the church that you authorities outside the church that you know don't submit to King Jesus are know don't submit to King Jesus are know don't submit to King Jesus are going to ever be helpful. How I mean I going to ever be helpful. How I mean I going to ever be helpful. How I mean I know that's we could have a whole know that's we could have a whole know that's we could have a whole conversation conversation conversation >> sure >> sure >> sure >> about that. Um and if there are >> about that. Um and if there are >> about that. Um and if there are resources you would direct pastors to uh resources you would direct pastors to uh resources you would direct pastors to uh whether podcasts or books to think more whether podcasts or books to think more whether podcasts or books to think more about this feel free but what's just about this feel free but what's just about this feel free but what's just kind of a thumbnail of what you would kind of a thumbnail of what you would kind of a thumbnail of what you would say to pastors in thinking through um say to pastors in thinking through um say to pastors in thinking through um the totality of the human person body the totality of the human person body the totality of the human person body and soul and how we can minister to them and soul and how we can minister to them and soul and how we can minister to them in a holistic way. Yeah. I mean, we've in a holistic way. Yeah. I mean, we've in a holistic way. Yeah. I mean, we've referred to David a lot, so I'm just referred to David a lot, so I'm just referred to David a lot, so I'm just going to go back to going to go back to going to go back to >> King David.

>> King David. >> King David. No, do No, do No, do >> Dr. Paulisonson, who's with the Lord >> Dr. Paulisonson, who's with the Lord >> Dr. Paulisonson, who's with the Lord now, now, now, >> who is probably asking all the questions >> who is probably asking all the questions >> who is probably asking all the questions of the disciples he ever wanted to ask of the disciples he ever wanted to ask of the disciples he ever wanted to ask and having a grand old time. and having a grand old time. and having a grand old time. >> Uh, his article Care of Souls help >> Uh, his article Care of Souls help >> Uh, his article Care of Souls help helped me rethink this whole issue in a helped me rethink this whole issue in a helped me rethink this whole issue in a way that I hadn't before. And he offers way that I hadn't before. And he offers way that I hadn't before. And he offers a hermeneutical paradigm for starting a hermeneutical paradigm for starting a hermeneutical paradigm for starting with understanding any topic according with understanding any topic according with understanding any topic according to what scripture says because people to what scripture says because people to what scripture says because people will falsely say all truth is God truth will falsely say all truth is God truth will falsely say all truth is God truth and then throw in anything they want to and then throw in anything they want to and then throw in anything they want to in terms of their extra biblical in terms of their extra biblical in terms of their extra biblical knowledge. knowledge. knowledge. >> And yet he helpfully helps you >> And yet he helpfully helps you >> And yet he helpfully helps you understand like you've got to understand understand like you've got to understand understand like you've got to understand first what God thinks about any topic. first what God thinks about any topic. first what God thinks about any topic. And only then can you go outside of that And only then can you go outside of that And only then can you go outside of that to begin to understand what extra to begin to understand what extra to begin to understand what extra biblical knowledge will offer you versus biblical knowledge will offer you versus biblical knowledge will offer you versus running to extra biblical knowledge and running to extra biblical knowledge and running to extra biblical knowledge and presuming that just cuz I'm a Christian presuming that just cuz I'm a Christian presuming that just cuz I'm a Christian I'll be able to handle it just fine. And I'll be able to handle it just fine. And I'll be able to handle it just fine. And that that's just false.

that that's just false. that that's just false. >> And just to cl I want to clarify the >> And just to cl I want to clarify the >> And just to cl I want to clarify the term you're using by extrabiblical term you're using by extrabiblical term you're using by extrabiblical you're not meaning anti-biblical. You're you're not meaning anti-biblical. You're you're not meaning anti-biblical. You're not you're just meaning not you're just meaning not you're just meaning >> knowledge that we get from outside the >> knowledge that we get from outside the >> knowledge that we get from outside the pages of scripture. pages of scripture. pages of scripture. >> Yeah. Well, like you read your newspaper >> Yeah. Well, like you read your newspaper >> Yeah. Well, like you read your newspaper or you read a research paper by a or you read a research paper by a or you read a research paper by a scientist, you know, you you read a a scientist, you know, you you read a a scientist, you know, you you read a a book written by a secular author, you're book written by a secular author, you're book written by a secular author, you're getting extra biblical knowledge, getting extra biblical knowledge, getting extra biblical knowledge, knowledge that comes from this world knowledge that comes from this world knowledge that comes from this world that tells you about the world, about that tells you about the world, about that tells you about the world, about our anthropology, about God. It tells our anthropology, about God. It tells our anthropology, about God. It tells you all kinds of information. I need to you all kinds of information. I need to you all kinds of information. I need to have a richly theological worldview to have a richly theological worldview to have a richly theological worldview to interpret that extra biblical knowledge. interpret that extra biblical knowledge. interpret that extra biblical knowledge. And therefore, if I have clear in my And therefore, if I have clear in my And therefore, if I have clear in my mind what scripture says, then I can go mind what scripture says, then I can go mind what scripture says, then I can go to well then what is wrong with the to well then what is wrong with the to well then what is wrong with the extra biblical knowledge? because the extra biblical knowledge? because the extra biblical knowledge? because the scripture will be my lens and only then scripture will be my lens and only then scripture will be my lens and only then can I finally look at what's useful in can I finally look at what's useful in can I finally look at what's useful in that extra biblical knowledge rather that extra biblical knowledge rather that extra biblical knowledge rather than the old phrase of all all truth is than the old phrase of all all truth is than the old phrase of all all truth is God's truth that it turns into excuse to God's truth that it turns into excuse to God's truth that it turns into excuse to grab anything I wanted in regards to grab anything I wanted in regards to grab anything I wanted in regards to extra biblical knowledge and that's just extra biblical knowledge and that's just extra biblical knowledge and that's just that is that is not exercising that is that is not exercising that is that is not exercising discernment in regards to what discernment in regards to what discernment in regards to what Christians should do which is a Christians should do which is a Christians should do which is a radically Christian worldview when we radically Christian worldview when we radically Christian worldview when we step into the world but You know, a step into the world but You know, a step into the world but You know, a mature Christian is going to do that mature Christian is going to do that mature Christian is going to do that with anything that they're approaching.

with anything that they're approaching. with anything that they're approaching. >> If I could give if I could give an >> If I could give if I could give an >> If I could give if I could give an illustration of that, Dr. Dr. Guy illustration of that, Dr. Dr. Guy illustration of that, Dr. Dr. Guy Richardson, who uh was the former Richardson, who uh was the former Richardson, who uh was the former president of RTS Jackson, was a trained president of RTS Jackson, was a trained president of RTS Jackson, was a trained in counseling and served on church in counseling and served on church in counseling and served on church staffs in a couple of different states staffs in a couple of different states staffs in a couple of different states and helped teach counseling here in in and helped teach counseling here in in and helped teach counseling here in in Jackson. And uh on one occasion a very Jackson. And uh on one occasion a very Jackson. And uh on one occasion a very wonderful godly woman in the wonderful godly woman in the wonderful godly woman in the congregation came to him and she had congregation came to him and she had congregation came to him and she had been to several good biblical counselors been to several good biblical counselors been to several good biblical counselors and she was struggling with anxiety and she was struggling with anxiety and she was struggling with anxiety issues and they had you know they had issues and they had you know they had issues and they had you know they had talked with her about the things that talked with her about the things that talked with her about the things that you would want a biblical counselor to you would want a biblical counselor to you would want a biblical counselor to talk to a Christian about in terms of talk to a Christian about in terms of talk to a Christian about in terms of trusting God's providence and uh being trusting God's providence and uh being trusting God's providence and uh being able to uh to to rest in the Lord's care able to uh to to rest in the Lord's care able to uh to to rest in the Lord's care for us and and not to be given over to for us and and not to be given over to for us and and not to be given over to worry and such. worry and such. worry and such. when she sat down with him, within a when she sat down with him, within a when she sat down with him, within a matter of minutes, he actually noticed matter of minutes, he actually noticed matter of minutes, he actually noticed some physical indications that she might some physical indications that she might some physical indications that she might have a thyroid problem. And he he just have a thyroid problem. And he he just have a thyroid problem. And he he just said to her, "Sister, have you been to said to her, "Sister, have you been to said to her, "Sister, have you been to your doctor recently? I I think you need your doctor recently? I I think you need your doctor recently? I I think you need to go ask him to run tests on your to go ask him to run tests on your to go ask him to run tests on your thyroid." Sure enough, she had a thyroid thyroid." Sure enough, she had a thyroid thyroid." Sure enough, she had a thyroid problem that was contributing to her problem that was contributing to her problem that was contributing to her anxiety. And she wanted to think like a anxiety. And she wanted to think like a anxiety. And she wanted to think like a Christian. She didn't want to be torn up Christian. She didn't want to be torn up Christian. She didn't want to be torn up with worry, but she had a physical with worry, but she had a physical with worry, but she had a physical condition that was actually contributing condition that was actually contributing condition that was actually contributing to it. And it that was it. It settled to it. And it that was it. It settled to it. And it that was it. It settled everything uh for her in that condition.

everything uh for her in that condition. everything uh for her in that condition. And so that's an example of that. That's And so that's an example of that. That's And so that's an example of that. That's not undermining the authority of the not undermining the authority of the not undermining the authority of the Bible. It's just re if you had a broken Bible. It's just re if you had a broken Bible. It's just re if you had a broken arm and you walked into your pastor's arm and you walked into your pastor's arm and you walked into your pastor's office and I'm kind of short-tempered office and I'm kind of short-tempered office and I'm kind of short-tempered and I'm kind of mad with everybody and and I'm kind of mad with everybody and and I'm kind of mad with everybody and biting at at my kids when they your arm biting at at my kids when they your arm biting at at my kids when they your arm is broken. Go see an orthopod. get your is broken. Go see an orthopod. get your is broken. Go see an orthopod. get your arm set, you know, and you'll be able to arm set, you know, and you'll be able to arm set, you know, and you'll be able to be nicer to people around you. Sometimes be nicer to people around you. Sometimes be nicer to people around you. Sometimes what's happening to us, even physically, what's happening to us, even physically, what's happening to us, even physically, uh, can impact, uh, the way that we're uh, can impact, uh, the way that we're uh, can impact, uh, the way that we're relating to other people. And you want relating to other people. And you want relating to other people. And you want to pay attention to those kinds of to pay attention to those kinds of to pay attention to those kinds of things. And it's not an eitheror. It's things. And it's not an eitheror. It's things. And it's not an eitheror. It's not scrapping the Bible and, you know, not scrapping the Bible and, you know, not scrapping the Bible and, you know, going to what really matters. It's just going to what really matters. It's just going to what really matters. It's just recognizing we are a psychosmatic unity recognizing we are a psychosmatic unity recognizing we are a psychosmatic unity as as Christians. and and that means as as Christians. and and that means as as Christians. and and that means sometimes there going to be physical sometimes there going to be physical sometimes there going to be physical conditions that impact uh our spiritual conditions that impact uh our spiritual conditions that impact uh our spiritual uh behavior, our relationships and uh behavior, our relationships and uh behavior, our relationships and things of that nature. You want to be things of that nature. You want to be things of that nature. You want to be aware of those things. aware of those things. aware of those things. >> One illustration I've used when it comes >> One illustration I've used when it comes >> One illustration I've used when it comes to the really complicated question of of to the really complicated question of of to the really complicated question of of medication. Um, of course, some folks medication. Um, of course, some folks medication. Um, of course, some folks would kind of be anti-medation and would would kind of be anti-medation and would would kind of be anti-medation and would just be quick to prescribe a Bible verse just be quick to prescribe a Bible verse just be quick to prescribe a Bible verse essentially. Um and then on the other essentially. Um and then on the other essentially. Um and then on the other extreme would be basically the extreme would be basically the extreme would be basically the industrial complex of our overmedicated industrial complex of our overmedicated industrial complex of our overmedicated age. Um in which everything seemingly age. Um in which everything seemingly age. Um in which everything seemingly can be fixed with a prescription. Uh I I can be fixed with a prescription. Uh I I can be fixed with a prescription. Uh I I I liken it to if you if you're driving I liken it to if you if you're driving I liken it to if you if you're driving in a car and your windshield is foggy

in a car and your windshield is foggy in a car and your windshield is foggy and therefore you find yourself in a and therefore you find yourself in a and therefore you find yourself in a ditch on the side of the road. ditch on the side of the road. ditch on the side of the road. Secular psychology, at least some Secular psychology, at least some Secular psychology, at least some voices, might make it sound like they voices, might make it sound like they voices, might make it sound like they can get you from the ditch to your can get you from the ditch to your can get you from the ditch to your destination. destination. destination. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> When the reality is they can't even tell >> When the reality is they can't even tell >> When the reality is they can't even tell you which direction to drive once you're you which direction to drive once you're you which direction to drive once you're back on the highway. back on the highway. back on the highway. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But what they can do or or not what they >> But what they can do or or not what they >> But what they can do or or not what they can do, but what medication in certain can do, but what medication in certain can do, but what medication in certain situations can do is defog the situations can do is defog the situations can do is defog the windshield. then you're able to just get windshield. then you're able to just get windshield. then you're able to just get back on the road. But then it's going to back on the road. But then it's going to back on the road. But then it's going to be the word of God, the people of God, be the word of God, the people of God, be the word of God, the people of God, the sanctification of the spirit the sanctification of the spirit the sanctification of the spirit >> that show you which direction to drive >> that show you which direction to drive >> that show you which direction to drive and ultimately um help bring you safely and ultimately um help bring you safely and ultimately um help bring you safely home. home. home. >> Yeah. I mean the simple way to describe >> Yeah. I mean the simple way to describe >> Yeah. I mean the simple way to describe it is sin and suffering puts you in it is sin and suffering puts you in it is sin and suffering puts you in valleys or on hills and medication often valleys or on hills and medication often valleys or on hills and medication often what it does it evens you out so that what it does it evens you out so that what it does it evens you out so that then I have access to the heart in a way then I have access to the heart in a way then I have access to the heart in a way that preaching in the word community all that preaching in the word community all that preaching in the word community all can can speak in that doesn't mean they can can speak in that doesn't mean they can can speak in that doesn't mean they can't speak in at other times can't speak in at other times can't speak in at other times >> and and you know the reality of some >> and and you know the reality of some >> and and you know the reality of some medication numbs me out some medication medication numbs me out some medication medication numbs me out some medication brings me back to life and this is brings me back to life and this is brings me back to life and this is there's a practical aspect to there's a practical aspect to there's a practical aspect to medications.

medications. medications. >> People think that, hey, all medications >> People think that, hey, all medications >> People think that, hey, all medications will solve all my problems and it'll be will solve all my problems and it'll be will solve all my problems and it'll be a it'll be a magic bullet. There is no a it'll be a magic bullet. There is no a it'll be a magic bullet. There is no such thing as a magic bullet, such thing as a magic bullet, such thing as a magic bullet, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Um but it is one means that the Lord >> Um but it is one means that the Lord >> Um but it is one means that the Lord could use if you have wisdom could use if you have wisdom could use if you have wisdom >> and working with a doctor and thinking >> and working with a doctor and thinking >> and working with a doctor and thinking wisely about your own body and life that wisely about your own body and life that wisely about your own body and life that that has potential. So it's it's a help, that has potential. So it's it's a help, that has potential. So it's it's a help, but it never solves the problem, but it never solves the problem, but it never solves the problem, >> right? What might work for one person, >> right? What might work for one person, >> right? What might work for one person, what might be a help to one person is what might be a help to one person is what might be a help to one person is going to be anything but to another. going to be anything but to another. going to be anything but to another. >> Um, Deepac, >> Um, Deepac, >> Um, Deepac, >> if a pastor listening hasn't put much >> if a pastor listening hasn't put much >> if a pastor listening hasn't put much thought into counseling yet, uh, not not thought into counseling yet, uh, not not thought into counseling yet, uh, not not because they've haven't cared about the because they've haven't cared about the because they've haven't cared about the issue, but like you said, a lot of issue, but like you said, a lot of issue, but like you said, a lot of pastors are just trying to keep their pastors are just trying to keep their pastors are just trying to keep their heads above water. They don't have the heads above water. They don't have the heads above water. They don't have the luxury of a large staff in which they luxury of a large staff in which they luxury of a large staff in which they can have people specializing in various can have people specializing in various can have people specializing in various things. things. things. What are some practices or plans or What are some practices or plans or What are some practices or plans or boundaries or whatever that you think an boundaries or whatever that you think an boundaries or whatever that you think an an ordinary pastor could put in place an ordinary pastor could put in place an ordinary pastor could put in place this coming week uh to at least be uh this coming week uh to at least be uh this coming week uh to at least be uh moving their church in a healthy moving their church in a healthy moving their church in a healthy direction in these regards?

direction in these regards? direction in these regards? >> Yeah. F first thing is just go ahead and >> Yeah. F first thing is just go ahead and >> Yeah. F first thing is just go ahead and for example put biblical counseling and for example put biblical counseling and for example put biblical counseling and you can go to ccf.org or you can go to you can go to ccf.org or you can go to you can go to ccf.org or you can go to biblical counseling coalition. There's a biblical counseling coalition. There's a biblical counseling coalition. There's a number of faithful organizations. go number of faithful organizations. go number of faithful organizations. go ahead and get on their websites and ahead and get on their websites and ahead and get on their websites and start reading, listening, studying. start reading, listening, studying. start reading, listening, studying. That's the first step that doesn't cause That's the first step that doesn't cause That's the first step that doesn't cause them to have to do anything, spend any them to have to do anything, spend any them to have to do anything, spend any money. Uh that will begin equipping money. Uh that will begin equipping money. Uh that will begin equipping them. Second thing we mentioned earlier, them. Second thing we mentioned earlier, them. Second thing we mentioned earlier, find an older, wiser pastor and get them find an older, wiser pastor and get them find an older, wiser pastor and get them on your speed dial so that you can ask on your speed dial so that you can ask on your speed dial so that you can ask for help when whether it's individual for help when whether it's individual for help when whether it's individual situations or congregational situations situations or congregational situations situations or congregational situations or elders meetings as Lian mentioned or elders meetings as Lian mentioned or elders meetings as Lian mentioned earlier, earlier, earlier, >> you can start learning from them >> you can start learning from them >> you can start learning from them >> how to handle some of these things >> how to handle some of these things >> how to handle some of these things >> and then even better if they'll let you >> and then even better if they'll let you >> and then even better if they'll let you sit in or they will sit in and help you. sit in or they will sit in and help you. sit in or they will sit in and help you. Because I would, for example, I would Because I would, for example, I would Because I would, for example, I would drop in one every four or five sessions. drop in one every four or five sessions. drop in one every four or five sessions. Different staff would come to me with Different staff would come to me with Different staff would come to me with different issues and I would step in for different issues and I would step in for different issues and I would step in for a single session. The person was warned, a single session. The person was warned, a single session. The person was warned, you know, I would work with the with the you know, I would work with the with the you know, I would work with the with the counselor or pastor and the person counselor or pastor and the person counselor or pastor and the person >> and then I would step out and I would be >> and then I would step out and I would be >> and then I would step out and I would be able to give a take on what I saw in in able to give a take on what I saw in in able to give a take on what I saw in in that situation, that situation, that situation, >> help provoke some things. I did a little >> help provoke some things. I did a little >> help provoke some things. I did a little bit of good guy, bad guy. I could come bit of good guy, bad guy. I could come bit of good guy, bad guy. I could come and be the bad guy, provoke some things, and be the bad guy, provoke some things, and be the bad guy, provoke some things, and they would clean up after me, and they would clean up after me, and they would clean up after me, >> but it would get some things in motion.

>> but it would get some things in motion. >> but it would get some things in motion. So, work with another pastor So, work with another pastor So, work with another pastor >> to either learn from them or work >> to either learn from them or work >> to either learn from them or work alongside of them would be the second alongside of them would be the second alongside of them would be the second thing. The third thing is get equipped. thing. The third thing is get equipped. thing. The third thing is get equipped. Pastors don't want theory from me. They Pastors don't want theory from me. They Pastors don't want theory from me. They want the practicalities of how to deal want the practicalities of how to deal want the practicalities of how to deal with some of these hard things. So, with some of these hard things. So, with some of these hard things. So, there are abundance of conferences, a there are abundance of conferences, a there are abundance of conferences, a lot of online training available. take lot of online training available. take lot of online training available. take some time to work with your elders to some time to work with your elders to some time to work with your elders to get budget money set aside to equip get budget money set aside to equip get budget money set aside to equip yourself and some of your staff yourself and some of your staff yourself and some of your staff >> so that they can feel better equipped in >> so that they can feel better equipped in >> so that they can feel better equipped in the years to come. And you know that the years to come. And you know that the years to come. And you know that slow drip you mentioned the long-term slow drip you mentioned the long-term slow drip you mentioned the long-term view is the best way to think about view is the best way to think about view is the best way to think about this. So I love that one pastor wrote me this. So I love that one pastor wrote me this. So I love that one pastor wrote me and said give me a key book in each one and said give me a key book in each one and said give me a key book in each one of these problem areas because I know of these problem areas because I know of these problem areas because I know I'm going to face them over the next few I'm going to face them over the next few I'm going to face them over the next few years. and he is slowly chipping away at years. and he is slowly chipping away at years. and he is slowly chipping away at those books and he said, "It's going to those books and he said, "It's going to those books and he said, "It's going to take me years to read through them, but take me years to read through them, but take me years to read through them, but I want to begin to work on it now." And I want to begin to work on it now." And I want to begin to work on it now." And he's he's in the first year of his he's he's in the first year of his he's he's in the first year of his pastoral ministry. So, I wanted to pastoral ministry. So, I wanted to pastoral ministry. So, I wanted to commend him commend him commend him >> that he's taking the time to get himself >> that he's taking the time to get himself >> that he's taking the time to get himself ready ready ready >> because some of those things haven't >> because some of those things haven't >> because some of those things haven't walked in his door, but he know they're walked in his door, but he know they're walked in his door, but he know they're coming.

coming. coming. >> You don't have that list handy, do you? >> You don't have that list handy, do you? >> You don't have that list handy, do you? >> Uh, I I will come up with the list so >> Uh, I I will come up with the list so >> Uh, I I will come up with the list so you can put in the show notes. I'm glad you can put in the show notes. I'm glad you can put in the show notes. I'm glad to come up with a list like that to come up with a list like that to come up with a list like that >> as we kind of start to wrap up the >> as we kind of start to wrap up the >> as we kind of start to wrap up the episode. episode. episode. We keep talking about pastors being We keep talking about pastors being We keep talking about pastors being equipped, but equipped, but equipped, but what's a sign a pastor is not equipped? what's a sign a pastor is not equipped? what's a sign a pastor is not equipped? What do you think are some of the main What do you think are some of the main What do you think are some of the main misconceptions pastors have about misconceptions pastors have about misconceptions pastors have about counseling or mistakes, most common counseling or mistakes, most common counseling or mistakes, most common mistakes that you see or hear about mistakes that you see or hear about mistakes that you see or hear about pastors making? pastors making? pastors making? >> Yeah. I had I had one pastor who said to >> Yeah. I had I had one pastor who said to >> Yeah. I had I had one pastor who said to me, "I'm pretty confident that I can me, "I'm pretty confident that I can me, "I'm pretty confident that I can solve most problems in 20 minutes in one solve most problems in 20 minutes in one solve most problems in 20 minutes in one meeting." Uh, and I was I was a little meeting." Uh, and I was I was a little meeting." Uh, and I was I was a little surprised. I think if you're willing to surprised. I think if you're willing to surprised. I think if you're willing to be be uh humble and learn, you can be be uh humble and learn, you can be be uh humble and learn, you can actually handle a lot more than you actually handle a lot more than you actually handle a lot more than you think you're capable of. The Lord can think you're capable of. The Lord can think you're capable of. The Lord can grow you immensely in doing that. So, grow you immensely in doing that. So, grow you immensely in doing that. So, first ask your wife what you're not good first ask your wife what you're not good first ask your wife what you're not good at in terms of listening and responding at in terms of listening and responding at in terms of listening and responding and speaking in uh because she will have and speaking in uh because she will have and speaking in uh because she will have plenty advice of how you can become a plenty advice of how you can become a plenty advice of how you can become a better counselor. That that would be a better counselor. That that would be a better counselor. That that would be a first place to start. And then secondly, first place to start. And then secondly, first place to start. And then secondly, just go to some of your leadership just go to some of your leadership just go to some of your leadership because they will have observed your because they will have observed your because they will have observed your strengths and weaknesses.

strengths and weaknesses. strengths and weaknesses. >> They'll be able to give you good solid >> They'll be able to give you good solid >> They'll be able to give you good solid feedback on other ways in which you can feedback on other ways in which you can feedback on other ways in which you can grow. and then set out a path. Set out a grow. and then set out a path. Set out a grow. and then set out a path. Set out a a plan to begin to work at growing in a plan to begin to work at growing in a plan to begin to work at growing in terms of your skills and your competency terms of your skills and your competency terms of your skills and your competency to help other people. Other thing is to help other people. Other thing is to help other people. Other thing is even if you don't have that much even if you don't have that much even if you don't have that much bandwidth, take on some of the bandwidth, take on some of the bandwidth, take on some of the situations, even if it's just one, situations, even if it's just one, situations, even if it's just one, and that single situation will begin to and that single situation will begin to and that single situation will begin to help shape you and grow you to help shape you and grow you to help shape you and grow you to understand how to come alongside a understand how to come alongside a understand how to come alongside a sinner or a sufferer. the more you can sinner or a sufferer. the more you can sinner or a sufferer. the more you can take on that is reasonable. And I'm all take on that is reasonable. And I'm all take on that is reasonable. And I'm all about having proper boundaries, making about having proper boundaries, making about having proper boundaries, making sure you're able to go across and care sure you're able to go across and care sure you're able to go across and care for your family, that it doesn't overrun for your family, that it doesn't overrun for your family, that it doesn't overrun your schedule. That's a more typical your schedule. That's a more typical your schedule. That's a more typical problem. Pastor, take on too many of problem. Pastor, take on too many of problem. Pastor, take on too many of those hard things and don't know when to those hard things and don't know when to those hard things and don't know when to partner with other elders or counselors partner with other elders or counselors partner with other elders or counselors in the community. Uh, and as you grow in in the community. Uh, and as you grow in in the community. Uh, and as you grow in learning that, you'll be really learning that, you'll be really learning that, you'll be really surprised. I had u I had a friend ask me surprised. I had u I had a friend ask me surprised. I had u I had a friend ask me to co-e with them at at a pre-conference to co-e with them at at a pre-conference to co-e with them at at a pre-conference and he assigned me the topic of the and he assigned me the topic of the and he assigned me the topic of the mistakes I've made in in counseling mistakes I've made in in counseling mistakes I've made in in counseling ministry. It was about 10 years in. It ministry. It was about 10 years in. It ministry. It was about 10 years in. It was a great topic because it po caused was a great topic because it po caused was a great topic because it po caused me to pause and reflect and there were a me to pause and reflect and there were a me to pause and reflect and there were a lot of mistakes I made.

lot of mistakes I made. lot of mistakes I made. But I was also surprised in a decade how But I was also surprised in a decade how But I was also surprised in a decade how much I had grown, how much the Lord had much I had grown, how much the Lord had much I had grown, how much the Lord had taught me, how much I knew much more so taught me, how much I knew much more so taught me, how much I knew much more so than I'd walked in the very first day. than I'd walked in the very first day. than I'd walked in the very first day. So just be patient because the Lord will So just be patient because the Lord will So just be patient because the Lord will keep growing you as you do all of these keep growing you as you do all of these keep growing you as you do all of these things. things. things. >> That's helpful. And I think near the >> That's helpful. And I think near the >> That's helpful. And I think near the beginning of the episode, you all just beginning of the episode, you all just beginning of the episode, you all just mentioned the importance of listening. mentioned the importance of listening. mentioned the importance of listening. I'm reminded of Proverbs 25 20:5. The I'm reminded of Proverbs 25 20:5. The I'm reminded of Proverbs 25 20:5. The purposes of a man's heart are like deep purposes of a man's heart are like deep purposes of a man's heart are like deep waters. A person of understanding draws waters. A person of understanding draws waters. A person of understanding draws them out. And uh two things I've read them out. And uh two things I've read them out. And uh two things I've read recently that I was impressed with in in recently that I was impressed with in in recently that I was impressed with in in regard to just soft skills, emotional regard to just soft skills, emotional regard to just soft skills, emotional intelligence, listening well um would be intelligence, listening well um would be intelligence, listening well um would be the especially like the first third of the especially like the first third of the especially like the first third of David Brooks's book, How to Know a David Brooks's book, How to Know a David Brooks's book, How to Know a Person. Person. Person. >> And there's a chapter in a a new little >> And there's a chapter in a a new little >> And there's a chapter in a a new little book by by Gavin Ortland. The the book book by by Gavin Ortland. The the book book by by Gavin Ortland. The the book is called The Art of Disagreeing, but is called The Art of Disagreeing, but is called The Art of Disagreeing, but there's a little chapter just on there's a little chapter just on there's a little chapter just on listening. The art of listening. And as listening. The art of listening. And as listening. The art of listening. And as I'm trying to train up future pastors, I'm trying to train up future pastors, I'm trying to train up future pastors, those are two resources, maybe those are two resources, maybe those are two resources, maybe unexpected resources that I um want them unexpected resources that I um want them unexpected resources that I um want them to think about because that's not to think about because that's not to think about because that's not necessarily what you're going to get necessarily what you're going to get necessarily what you're going to get taught in seminary.

taught in seminary. taught in seminary. >> Yeah. So much of that bedside manner, >> Yeah. So much of that bedside manner, >> Yeah. So much of that bedside manner, having that bedside manner can be a having that bedside manner can be a having that bedside manner can be a difference maker when you're actually difference maker when you're actually difference maker when you're actually dealing with strugglers and sufferers dealing with strugglers and sufferers dealing with strugglers and sufferers and sinners. and sinners. and sinners. >> Lig, what final words of advice or >> Lig, what final words of advice or >> Lig, what final words of advice or caution would you commend to pastors on caution would you commend to pastors on caution would you commend to pastors on this particular topic? I do think most this particular topic? I do think most this particular topic? I do think most of us in the pastoral ministry feel of us in the pastoral ministry feel of us in the pastoral ministry feel overwhelmed with the uh you can run into overwhelmed with the uh you can run into overwhelmed with the uh you can run into such deep profound hurt in the lives of such deep profound hurt in the lives of such deep profound hurt in the lives of your congregation members and typically your congregation members and typically your congregation members and typically they're coming to you in a time of they're coming to you in a time of they're coming to you in a time of crisis and you do feel inadequate for crisis and you do feel inadequate for crisis and you do feel inadequate for it. So it it's wonderful to have these it. So it it's wonderful to have these it. So it it's wonderful to have these other resources to turn to. But I would other resources to turn to. But I would other resources to turn to. But I would just say as a pastor, I have on a number just say as a pastor, I have on a number just say as a pastor, I have on a number of occasions realized that if I'm going of occasions realized that if I'm going of occasions realized that if I'm going to serve if especially if I'm dealing to serve if especially if I'm dealing to serve if especially if I'm dealing with a family or with a couple that if I with a family or with a couple that if I with a family or with a couple that if I serve them well, chances are they're serve them well, chances are they're serve them well, chances are they're both going to be angry with me when I'm both going to be angry with me when I'm both going to be angry with me when I'm done. And I and as a pastor, you just done. And I and as a pastor, you just done. And I and as a pastor, you just have to you have to own that and say have to you have to own that and say have to you have to own that and say because a a lot of times a man will come because a a lot of times a man will come because a a lot of times a man will come to you because he wants you on his side to you because he wants you on his side to you because he wants you on his side and a woman will come to you because and a woman will come to you because and a woman will come to you because she's desperate for help. And if those she's desperate for help. And if those she's desperate for help. And if those if that combination is coming you to you if that combination is coming you to you if that combination is coming you to you together as a couple, then both of them together as a couple, then both of them together as a couple, then both of them want to be vindicated. Uh as much as want to be vindicated. Uh as much as want to be vindicated. Uh as much as they may want to get better, they want they may want to get better, they want they may want to get better, they want to be vindicated. And if you don't to be vindicated. And if you don't to be vindicated. And if you don't vindicate vindicate vindicate one or the other, the other will be one or the other, the other will be one or the other, the other will be angry with you and sometimes both of angry with you and sometimes both of angry with you and sometimes both of them. So ju I I think as pastors, we

them. So ju I I think as pastors, we them. So ju I I think as pastors, we just need to be ready. There are going just need to be ready. There are going just need to be ready. There are going to be some situations where people are to be some situations where people are to be some situations where people are desperate desperate desperate >> and they're they're looking for any hope >> and they're they're looking for any hope >> and they're they're looking for any hope and help they can find, but they want a and help they can find, but they want a and help they can find, but they want a particular resolution that you cannot particular resolution that you cannot particular resolution that you cannot you can't produce it. I mean, my guess you can't produce it. I mean, my guess you can't produce it. I mean, my guess is Deepac probably does see many cases is Deepac probably does see many cases is Deepac probably does see many cases that he could diagnose in 20 minutes to that he could diagnose in 20 minutes to that he could diagnose in 20 minutes to go back to the statement that he just go back to the statement that he just go back to the statement that he just But he also knows this will take weeks But he also knows this will take weeks But he also knows this will take weeks and weeks and months and months of and weeks and months and months of and weeks and months and months of prayer prayer prayer >> and and effort at change and dealing >> and and effort at change and dealing >> and and effort at change and dealing with one another differently and with one another differently and with one another differently and listening. And so, you know, it's not an listening. And so, you know, it's not an listening. And so, you know, it's not an easy thing to change habits and patterns easy thing to change habits and patterns easy thing to change habits and patterns to deal with deep issues of the of the to deal with deep issues of the of the to deal with deep issues of the of the heart. You may diagnose them, but part heart. You may diagnose them, but part heart. You may diagnose them, but part of it is does does the couple or does of it is does does the couple or does of it is does does the couple or does the individual or does the family have the individual or does the family have the individual or does the family have the will uh to to do the hard work that the will uh to to do the hard work that the will uh to to do the hard work that needs to be done? So pastors, um ju just needs to be done? So pastors, um ju just needs to be done? So pastors, um ju just realize you will need um a lot of realize you will need um a lot of realize you will need um a lot of humility in this area because you will humility in this area because you will humility in this area because you will want the best for people and they'll want the best for people and they'll want the best for people and they'll still kill one another. I mean they will still kill one another. I mean they will still kill one another. I mean they will just clobber one another and you're just clobber one another and you're just clobber one another and you're there praying for them, loving them, there praying for them, loving them, there praying for them, loving them, wanting to see them grow and they're wanting to see them grow and they're wanting to see them grow and they're just clobbering one another and they're just clobbering one another and they're just clobbering one another and they're not listening to what you tell them to not listening to what you tell them to not listening to what you tell them to do or they listen while you're while do or they listen while you're while do or they listen while you're while they're there at the office and then they're there at the office and then they're there at the office and then they go right back home and do the same they go right back home and do the same they go right back home and do the same thing. So the you know sanctification is thing. So the you know sanctification is thing. So the you know sanctification is frustrating for us individually. Well,

frustrating for us individually. Well, frustrating for us individually. Well, we're talking about sanctification of we're talking about sanctification of we're talking about sanctification of the congregation in individual lives and the congregation in individual lives and the congregation in individual lives and that's a it's it's not a steady climb that's a it's it's not a steady climb that's a it's it's not a steady climb up. It's it's you know it's all kinds of up. It's it's you know it's all kinds of up. It's it's you know it's all kinds of problems. And so problems. And so problems. And so >> pastors just hang in there. Uh turn to >> pastors just hang in there. Uh turn to >> pastors just hang in there. Uh turn to wise counselors, prepare as best as you wise counselors, prepare as best as you wise counselors, prepare as best as you can to serve people and recognize can to serve people and recognize can to serve people and recognize sometimes you can do your best and have sometimes you can do your best and have sometimes you can do your best and have it thrown right back in your face. And it thrown right back in your face. And it thrown right back in your face. And when that happens, you're you're just when that happens, you're you're just when that happens, you're you're just walking the way that your savior walked. walking the way that your savior walked. walking the way that your savior walked. So, uh I I just say be encouraged even So, uh I I just say be encouraged even So, uh I I just say be encouraged even when discouraging things happen. Keep on when discouraging things happen. Keep on when discouraging things happen. Keep on trying to be faithful. You know, you trying to be faithful. You know, you trying to be faithful. You know, you won't save every marriage that you want won't save every marriage that you want won't save every marriage that you want to save. You you won't see every uh you to save. You you won't see every uh you to save. You you won't see every uh you know, tension between elders in the know, tension between elders in the know, tension between elders in the congregation fixed. But you you want to congregation fixed. But you you want to congregation fixed. But you you want to give yourself to that as best as you can give yourself to that as best as you can give yourself to that as best as you can and then and then leave it in the Lord's and then and then leave it in the Lord's and then and then leave it in the Lord's hands as to how he's going to use your hands as to how he's going to use your hands as to how he's going to use your faithfulness. faithfulness. faithfulness. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> It's a good word. So again, Deepac, >> It's a good word. So again, Deepac, >> It's a good word. So again, Deepac, thank you for being with us. Um thank you for being with us. Um thank you for being with us. Um listeners, check out his work, his listeners, check out his work, his listeners, check out his work, his counseling talk podcast, and uh we pray counseling talk podcast, and uh we pray counseling talk podcast, and uh we pray God's blessings on your ministry. Thank God's blessings on your ministry. Thank God's blessings on your ministry. Thank you all for tuning in to this episode of you all for tuning in to this episode of you all for tuning in to this episode of the Everyday Pastor. We hope it's been the Everyday Pastor. We hope it's been the Everyday Pastor. We hope it's been helpful to you as you seek to build a helpful to you as you seek to build a helpful to you as you seek to build a culture of counseling in your local culture of counseling in your local culture of counseling in your local church. And please take a moment to church. And please take a moment to church. And please take a moment to leave a review to recommend it to leave a review to recommend it to leave a review to recommend it to someone else so we can continue helping someone else so we can continue helping someone else so we can continue helping pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.

ministry. ministry. [Music]