What Keeps Carl Trueman Awake at Night [Gospelbound - Ep. 181]

Bracket out Christianity, let's see how Bracket out Christianity, let's see how you've delivered on your own promises. you've delivered on your own promises. you've delivered on your own promises. And I argue in the book that in each And I argue in the book that in each And I argue in the book that in each case, in the case of case, in the case of case, in the case of birth, procreation, in the case of sex, birth, procreation, in the case of sex, birth, procreation, in the case of sex, and in the case of of death, and in the case of of death, and in the case of of death, we end up actually making ourselves less we end up actually making ourselves less we end up actually making ourselves less than human. It's not a liberating thing. than human. It's not a liberating thing. than human. It's not a liberating thing. It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage and degradation. >> Western culture today largely lacks a >> Western culture today largely lacks a sense of consecration, of setting apart sense of consecration, of setting apart sense of consecration, of setting apart the ordinary as holy. Yet somehow we the ordinary as holy. Yet somehow we the ordinary as holy. Yet somehow we still have a strong impulse toward still have a strong impulse toward still have a strong impulse toward desecration, of turning the holy into desecration, of turning the holy into desecration, of turning the holy into the ordinary. the ordinary. the ordinary. So, why have we lost the taste of the So, why have we lost the taste of the So, why have we lost the taste of the good while still developing a taste for good while still developing a taste for good while still developing a taste for the bad? the bad? the bad? That's one of the core questions at the That's one of the core questions at the That's one of the core questions at the heart of Carl Trueman's new book, The heart of Carl Trueman's new book, The heart of Carl Trueman's new book, The Desecration of Man: How the rejection of Desecration of Man: How the rejection of Desecration of Man: How the rejection of God degrades our humanity, published by God degrades our humanity, published by God degrades our humanity, published by Penguin Random House's Sentinel imprint.

Penguin Random House's Sentinel imprint. Penguin Random House's Sentinel imprint. Carl is a professor of biblical and Carl is a professor of biblical and Carl is a professor of biblical and theological studies at Grove City theological studies at Grove City theological studies at Grove City College and a fellow at the Ethics and College and a fellow at the Ethics and College and a fellow at the Ethics and Public Policy Center. He was a guest on Public Policy Center. He was a guest on Public Policy Center. He was a guest on Gospel Bound in 2020 for his highly Gospel Bound in 2020 for his highly Gospel Bound in 2020 for his highly acclaimed best-selling book, The Rise acclaimed best-selling book, The Rise acclaimed best-selling book, The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self. and Triumph of the Modern Self. and Triumph of the Modern Self. Well, in this new book, Carl writes, Well, in this new book, Carl writes, Well, in this new book, Carl writes, quote, "Transgression of the sacred is quote, "Transgression of the sacred is quote, "Transgression of the sacred is exhilarating precisely because it makes exhilarating precisely because it makes exhilarating precisely because it makes us feel like gods, the creators of our us feel like gods, the creators of our us feel like gods, the creators of our own meanings and our own selves. All we own meanings and our own selves. All we own meanings and our own selves. All we need to do is cross lines previously need to do is cross lines previously need to do is cross lines previously enforced by the idea of God, and we enforced by the idea of God, and we enforced by the idea of God, and we thereby assume the role of being gods." thereby assume the role of being gods." thereby assume the role of being gods." End quote. End quote. End quote. So, desecration is how we communicate So, desecration is how we communicate So, desecration is how we communicate authenticity, which is perhaps the most authenticity, which is perhaps the most authenticity, which is perhaps the most important value for the modern self. important value for the modern self. important value for the modern self. This entire project has backfired, and This entire project has backfired, and This entire project has backfired, and let's hear from Carl directly about what let's hear from Carl directly about what let's hear from Carl directly about what about why. Carl, thank you for joining about why. Carl, thank you for joining about why. Carl, thank you for joining me again on Gospel Bound. me again on Gospel Bound. me again on Gospel Bound. >> It's great to be back. Probably can't >> It's great to be back. Probably can't >> It's great to be back. Probably can't believe it's been 5 years. believe it's been 5 years. believe it's been 5 years. >> I know it. I know it. I know it. I was >> I know it. I know it. I know it. I was >> I know it. I know it. I know it. I was just thinking of that itself. A few just thinking of that itself. A few just thinking of that itself. A few things have changed in those in those things have changed in those in those things have changed in those in those years and thankfully we're out of 2020, years and thankfully we're out of 2020, years and thankfully we're out of 2020, but you know, Rise and Triumph of the but you know, Rise and Triumph of the but you know, Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self was a was a phenomenon Modern Self was a was a phenomenon Modern Self was a was a phenomenon uh and I remember reading that for the uh and I remember reading that for the uh and I remember reading that for the first time knowing that it would be. You first time knowing that it would be. You first time knowing that it would be. You put words to so many different things put words to so many different things put words to so many different things and connected so many different things and connected so many different things and connected so many different things that we'd all been feeling and seeing that we'd all been feeling and seeing that we'd all been feeling and seeing and you drew on many years of of study and you drew on many years of of study and you drew on many years of of study and research and experience. So, what is and research and experience. So, what is and research and experience. So, what is left to say that you didn't say in The left to say that you didn't say in The left to say that you didn't say in The Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self?

Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self? Rise and Triumph of the Modern Self? >> Well, a few things. There have been some >> Well, a few things. There have been some >> Well, a few things. There have been some interesting developments in the last 5 interesting developments in the last 5 interesting developments in the last 5 or 6 years. I I think one, we've seen a or 6 years. I I think one, we've seen a or 6 years. I I think one, we've seen a number of of high-profile intellectuals number of of high-profile intellectuals number of of high-profile intellectuals starting to take if if not the theology starting to take if if not the theology starting to take if if not the theology of Christianity seriously, at least the of Christianity seriously, at least the of Christianity seriously, at least the concept of the importance of religion concept of the importance of religion concept of the importance of religion for culture. So, there's there's that for culture. So, there's there's that for culture. So, there's there's that going on. Uh secondly, I think a lot of going on. Uh secondly, I think a lot of going on. Uh secondly, I think a lot of the the talk in Christian and the the talk in Christian and the the talk in Christian and non-Christian circles has tilted towards non-Christian circles has tilted towards non-Christian circles has tilted towards seeing our world as as disenchanted. seeing our world as as disenchanted. seeing our world as as disenchanted. And I think there's some truth in that, And I think there's some truth in that, And I think there's some truth in that, but as I try to argue in the book, I but as I try to argue in the book, I but as I try to argue in the book, I don't think it goes far enough. And then don't think it goes far enough. And then don't think it goes far enough. And then thirdly, thirdly, thirdly, uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh uh I think a lot of particularly pastors, I think a lot of particularly pastors, I think a lot of particularly pastors, elders, uh ordinary Christians in the elders, uh ordinary Christians in the elders, uh ordinary Christians in the pew, I don't mean that in a sort of pew, I don't mean that in a sort of pew, I don't mean that in a sort of patronizing way, but you know, typical patronizing way, but you know, typical patronizing way, but you know, typical Christians Christians Christians can feel overwhelmed by so much of can feel overwhelmed by so much of can feel overwhelmed by so much of what's going on in society. And what I what's going on in society. And what I what's going on in society. And what I tried to do in this book was tried to do in this book was tried to do in this book was identify a problem that would allow us identify a problem that would allow us identify a problem that would allow us then to see the solution. And not then to see the solution. And not then to see the solution. And not necessarily that the solution isn't easy necessarily that the solution isn't easy necessarily that the solution isn't easy one. I think it it's it it's a tough and one. I think it it's it it's a tough and one. I think it it's it it's a tough and sacrificial one in many ways, but for sacrificial one in many ways, but for sacrificial one in many ways, but for Christians to realize that they don't Christians to realize that they don't Christians to realize that they don't have to be intimidated and overwhelmed have to be intimidated and overwhelmed have to be intimidated and overwhelmed by what's going on in the culture.

by what's going on in the culture. by what's going on in the culture. actually have at our disposal the tools actually have at our disposal the tools actually have at our disposal the tools necessary for addressing the the necessary for addressing the the necessary for addressing the the fundamental, what I would fundamental, what I would fundamental, what I would describe as a fundamental crisis in describe as a fundamental crisis in describe as a fundamental crisis in anthropology or collapse in the anthropology or collapse in the anthropology or collapse in the understanding of what it means to be understanding of what it means to be understanding of what it means to be human. So, all of those things have have human. So, all of those things have have human. So, all of those things have have really come to the fore really come to the fore really come to the fore in the last five or six years and and I in the last five or six years and and I in the last five or six years and and I think require think require think require not Christians to think new thoughts, not Christians to think new thoughts, not Christians to think new thoughts, but to to use the resources they have but to to use the resources they have but to to use the resources they have perhaps in in new and different ways. perhaps in in new and different ways. perhaps in in new and different ways. >> You put the sexual revolution at the >> You put the sexual revolution at the >> You put the sexual revolution at the core of your narrative in The core of your narrative in The core of your narrative in The Desecration of Man. And I guess I'm Desecration of Man. And I guess I'm Desecration of Man. And I guess I'm wondering whether that's a situational wondering whether that's a situational wondering whether that's a situational or a normative decision. Is this due to or a normative decision. Is this due to or a normative decision. Is this due to culture's changes and challenges or from culture's changes and challenges or from culture's changes and challenges or from the emphasis the Bible puts on the emphasis the Bible puts on the emphasis the Bible puts on sexuality? sexuality? sexuality? >> Yeah, I I think it's both in a way. I >> Yeah, I I think it's both in a way. I >> Yeah, I I think it's both in a way. I mean, clearly mean, clearly mean, clearly uh you know, as Christians we believe uh you know, as Christians we believe uh you know, as Christians we believe human beings are fallen. human beings are fallen. human beings are fallen. Uh our sexual desires have been fallen Uh our sexual desires have been fallen Uh our sexual desires have been fallen ever since the fall itself, but we live ever since the fall itself, but we live ever since the fall itself, but we live at a a time when the context for acting at a a time when the context for acting at a a time when the context for acting upon the fallenness of our our sexual upon the fallenness of our our sexual upon the fallenness of our our sexual nature is much more plausible than it nature is much more plausible than it nature is much more plausible than it was in the past. I I when I teach this was in the past. I I when I teach this was in the past. I I when I teach this at college, I would say to the students, at college, I would say to the students, at college, I would say to the students, you know, you can believe that sex is you know, you can believe that sex is you know, you can believe that sex is recreation and you can believe that recreation and you can believe that recreation and you can believe that other people are mere sexual objects.

other people are mere sexual objects. other people are mere sexual objects. You could believe that in the 16th You could believe that in the 16th You could believe that in the 16th century or the 19th century, century or the 19th century, century or the 19th century, but it would be hard to get away with but it would be hard to get away with but it would be hard to get away with acting on that thinking. It's not really acting on that thinking. It's not really acting on that thinking. It's not really a very plausible way of thinking because a very plausible way of thinking because a very plausible way of thinking because you're going to get the girl pregnant. you're going to get the girl pregnant. you're going to get the girl pregnant. You're going to pick up a nasty You're going to pick up a nasty You're going to pick up a nasty incurable disease. There are going to be incurable disease. There are going to be incurable disease. There are going to be serious personal and social consequences serious personal and social consequences serious personal and social consequences for behaving that way. for behaving that way. for behaving that way. We live at a point in time when We live at a point in time when We live at a point in time when technology technology technology allows us at least to imagine that we allows us at least to imagine that we allows us at least to imagine that we can get away with can get away with can get away with uh you know, the the darkest desires of uh you know, the the darkest desires of uh you know, the the darkest desires of our fallen sexual nature with acting our fallen sexual nature with acting our fallen sexual nature with acting upon them. So, I would say yes. upon them. So, I would say yes. upon them. So, I would say yes. Uh Uh Uh the importance of sexual desire for what the importance of sexual desire for what the importance of sexual desire for what it means to be human is is a perennial it means to be human is is a perennial it means to be human is is a perennial in human history. We see it throughout in human history. We see it throughout in human history. We see it throughout literature. literature. literature. We see at this particular moment in time We see at this particular moment in time We see at this particular moment in time a supercharging of our ability to act a supercharging of our ability to act a supercharging of our ability to act upon that. So, it's it's normative, but upon that. So, it's it's normative, but upon that. So, it's it's normative, but it's also contextual. it's also contextual. it's also contextual. >> You mentioned earlier some of this >> You mentioned earlier some of this >> You mentioned earlier some of this renewed appreciation for at least the renewed appreciation for at least the renewed appreciation for at least the cultural benefits of Christianity if not cultural benefits of Christianity if not cultural benefits of Christianity if not the doctrines, the beliefs themselves.

the doctrines, the beliefs themselves. the doctrines, the beliefs themselves. But, you do make it clear in this book But, you do make it clear in this book But, you do make it clear in this book that that is not enough. Um I think in that that is not enough. Um I think in that that is not enough. Um I think in some ways the answer to that question is some ways the answer to that question is some ways the answer to that question is obvious of why we can't be content with obvious of why we can't be content with obvious of why we can't be content with these signs of life, however faint uh these signs of life, however faint uh these signs of life, however faint uh they would they would be. Uh so, how do they would they would be. Uh so, how do they would they would be. Uh so, how do we approach them? What's the What's the we approach them? What's the What's the we approach them? What's the What's the next step when we hear some of these next step when we hear some of these next step when we hear some of these things that would have been so things that would have been so things that would have been so unbelievable to us about Ayaan Hirsi Ali unbelievable to us about Ayaan Hirsi Ali unbelievable to us about Ayaan Hirsi Ali or or Christopher Hitchens or people or or Christopher Hitchens or people or or Christopher Hitchens or people like that. Um just I mean, some of that like that. Um just I mean, some of that like that. Um just I mean, some of that the nods that they made at the end of the nods that they made at the end of the nods that they made at the end of their lives are currently even going as their lives are currently even going as their lives are currently even going as far as complete conversion. far as complete conversion. far as complete conversion. >> Yeah, I mean, I think the first >> Yeah, I mean, I think the first >> Yeah, I mean, I think the first temptation to avoid of course is I I temptation to avoid of course is I I temptation to avoid of course is I I would say cynically demanding too much would say cynically demanding too much would say cynically demanding too much too soon. When an intellectual expresses too soon. When an intellectual expresses too soon. When an intellectual expresses an interest in Christianity, there can an interest in Christianity, there can an interest in Christianity, there can be a very strong temptation, be a very strong temptation, be a very strong temptation, particularly for those of us who who particularly for those of us who who particularly for those of us who who identify as Orthodox Christians of identify as Orthodox Christians of identify as Orthodox Christians of saying, "Ah, yes, but they're only in saying, "Ah, yes, but they're only in saying, "Ah, yes, but they're only in into it because it leads to these into it because it leads to these into it because it leads to these cultural improvements." I think the cultural improvements." I think the cultural improvements." I think the first thing to do is is to be grateful first thing to do is is to be grateful first thing to do is is to be grateful that we live at a time like this because that we live at a time like this because that we live at a time like this because I mean, I said to somebody recently, I I mean, I said to somebody recently, I I mean, I said to somebody recently, I don't care why somebody comes to church don't care why somebody comes to church don't care why somebody comes to church and sits under the word of God. Their and sits under the word of God. Their and sits under the word of God. Their reasons can be completely screwy. They reasons can be completely screwy. They reasons can be completely screwy. They may go to church to chat up that girl may go to church to chat up that girl may go to church to chat up that girl they saw in the in the classroom.

they saw in the in the classroom. they saw in the in the classroom. But, if they're in the church, we need But, if they're in the church, we need But, if they're in the church, we need to pray that the word of God they hear to pray that the word of God they hear to pray that the word of God they hear has an impact upon them. So, the first has an impact upon them. So, the first has an impact upon them. So, the first temptation to avoid if you like is the temptation to avoid if you like is the temptation to avoid if you like is the the cynical dismissal. And I I think the cynical dismissal. And I I think the cynical dismissal. And I I think there's a little bit of that when Ayaan there's a little bit of that when Ayaan there's a little bit of that when Ayaan Hirsi Ali announced her conversion. And Hirsi Ali announced her conversion. And Hirsi Ali announced her conversion. And her first statement about her conversion her first statement about her conversion her first statement about her conversion was very much oriented to the cultural. was very much oriented to the cultural. was very much oriented to the cultural. And a lot of Christians came out and And a lot of Christians came out and And a lot of Christians came out and said, you know, it's it's it's not true. said, you know, it's it's it's not true. said, you know, it's it's it's not true. It's It's It's And I want to say, "Hang on a minute. And I want to say, "Hang on a minute. And I want to say, "Hang on a minute. Let's let's Let's let's Let's let's let's use this as an opportunity for for let's use this as an opportunity for for let's use this as an opportunity for for going somewhere better." going somewhere better." going somewhere better." Secondly, I do think we need to realize Secondly, I do think we need to realize Secondly, I do think we need to realize that and this can be a temptation for us that and this can be a temptation for us that and this can be a temptation for us all that the cultural benefits of all that the cultural benefits of all that the cultural benefits of Christianity arise from the fact that Christianity arise from the fact that Christianity arise from the fact that Christianity is true. It isn't true Christianity is true. It isn't true Christianity is true. It isn't true because it's culturally beneficial. because it's culturally beneficial. because it's culturally beneficial. And interestingly enough, the 19th And interestingly enough, the 19th And interestingly enough, the 19th century philosopher Nietzsche is the man century philosopher Nietzsche is the man century philosopher Nietzsche is the man who really nails this. You who really nails this. You who really nails this. You If you use the word nihilism today, we If you use the word nihilism today, we If you use the word nihilism today, we tend to think of, you know, it's The Big tend to think of, you know, it's The Big tend to think of, you know, it's The Big Lebowski. It's a bunch of guys who don't Lebowski. It's a bunch of guys who don't Lebowski. It's a bunch of guys who don't believe in anything. believe in anything. believe in anything. Well, Nietzsche has a more subtle Well, Nietzsche has a more subtle Well, Nietzsche has a more subtle understanding of nihilism. He says, understanding of nihilism. He says, understanding of nihilism. He says, "Nihilism is "Nihilism is "Nihilism is carrying on as if nothing has changed carrying on as if nothing has changed carrying on as if nothing has changed when everything has changed." The when everything has changed." The when everything has changed." The nihilist for Nietzsche would be the nihilist for Nietzsche would be the nihilist for Nietzsche would be the person who acts as if God still exists person who acts as if God still exists person who acts as if God still exists even though God doesn't still exist.

even though God doesn't still exist. even though God doesn't still exist. And that's where I think culture, the And that's where I think culture, the And that's where I think culture, the sort of cultural Christianity we see sort of cultural Christianity we see sort of cultural Christianity we see emerging, emerging, emerging, has to take Nietzsche's criticism into has to take Nietzsche's criticism into has to take Nietzsche's criticism into account. And it account. And it account. And it it deeply saddened me in in the book to it deeply saddened me in in the book to it deeply saddened me in in the book to use Roger Scruton's the late Sir Roger use Roger Scruton's the late Sir Roger use Roger Scruton's the late Sir Roger Scruton's my example. I'm a huge fan of Scruton's my example. I'm a huge fan of Scruton's my example. I'm a huge fan of Roger Scruton's writings. Roger Scruton's writings. Roger Scruton's writings. But try as I might, I've not been able But try as I might, I've not been able But try as I might, I've not been able to find anything in his writings where to find anything in his writings where to find anything in his writings where he really robustly affirms orthodox he really robustly affirms orthodox he really robustly affirms orthodox Christianity. Christianity. Christianity. And I remember hearing him give a And I remember hearing him give a And I remember hearing him give a lecture in Princeton some years ago when lecture in Princeton some years ago when lecture in Princeton some years ago when the respondent was John Haldane and the the respondent was John Haldane and the the respondent was John Haldane and the Catholic philosopher. And And Sir Roger Catholic philosopher. And And Sir Roger Catholic philosopher. And And Sir Roger gave this beautiful account of a beauty gave this beautiful account of a beauty gave this beautiful account of a beauty and truth. and truth. and truth. And then John Haldane stood up and said, And then John Haldane stood up and said, And then John Haldane stood up and said, "Everything you've said, Roger, "Everything you've said, Roger, "Everything you've said, Roger, uh uh uh is good and true. is good and true. is good and true. But unless you have firm belief in the But unless you have firm belief in the But unless you have firm belief in the Christian God, it's just a castle Christian God, it's just a castle Christian God, it's just a castle floating in the air. And I am worried, floating in the air. And I am worried, floating in the air. And I am worried, particular time of of high political particular time of of high political particular time of of high political polarization, polarization, polarization, that we can downplay the dogmatic that we can downplay the dogmatic that we can downplay the dogmatic demands of Christianity.

demands of Christianity. demands of Christianity. Uh, if we can get the the cultural Uh, if we can get the the cultural Uh, if we can get the the cultural benefits of it. The Apostle Paul says, benefits of it. The Apostle Paul says, benefits of it. The Apostle Paul says, if Christ is not raised, we translate if Christ is not raised, we translate if Christ is not raised, we translate that as if the tomb was not empty, we that as if the tomb was not empty, we that as if the tomb was not empty, we are of all people to be most pitied. So, are of all people to be most pitied. So, are of all people to be most pitied. So, I think it's a time of great I think it's a time of great I think it's a time of great opportunity. We're able to have opportunity. We're able to have opportunity. We're able to have conversations with intellectuals, for conversations with intellectuals, for conversations with intellectuals, for example, we would never have had example, we would never have had example, we would never have had conversations with a decade ago. On the conversations with a decade ago. On the conversations with a decade ago. On the other hand, we need to make sure that we other hand, we need to make sure that we other hand, we need to make sure that we still press the still press the still press the uh, the faith once for all delivered to uh, the faith once for all delivered to uh, the faith once for all delivered to the saints, which has that supernatural the saints, which has that supernatural the saints, which has that supernatural incarnation, uh, right at its very core. incarnation, uh, right at its very core. incarnation, uh, right at its very core. >> Speaking of Nietzsche, you talk about >> Speaking of Nietzsche, you talk about >> Speaking of Nietzsche, you talk about how the house of the madman is upon us. how the house of the madman is upon us. how the house of the madman is upon us. Uh, evocative phrase. Tell us more what Uh, evocative phrase. Tell us more what Uh, evocative phrase. Tell us more what you mean. you mean. you mean. >> Yeah, well, Nietzsche tells this I One >> Yeah, well, Nietzsche tells this I One >> Yeah, well, Nietzsche tells this I One of the things I love about Nietzsche, by of the things I love about Nietzsche, by of the things I love about Nietzsche, by the way, is yeah, the way, is yeah, the way, is yeah, he's one of those philosophers who's he's one of those philosophers who's he's one of those philosophers who's just a lot of fun to read. He writes just a lot of fun to read. He writes just a lot of fun to read. He writes beautifully. It's one of the things that beautifully. It's one of the things that beautifully. It's one of the things that makes him quite dangerous in some ways. makes him quite dangerous in some ways. makes him quite dangerous in some ways. And in his book, The Gay Science, he has And in his book, The Gay Science, he has And in his book, The Gay Science, he has this parable where a madman, holding a this parable where a madman, holding a this parable where a madman, holding a lantern, runs into a town square in the lantern, runs into a town square in the lantern, runs into a town square in the middle of the day, declaring that God is middle of the day, declaring that God is middle of the day, declaring that God is dead. Uh, and people initially respond dead. Uh, and people initially respond dead. Uh, and people initially respond by laughing at him. And the interesting by laughing at him. And the interesting by laughing at him. And the interesting thing is, Nietzsche makes it very clear thing is, Nietzsche makes it very clear thing is, Nietzsche makes it very clear that these people laughing at him are that these people laughing at him are that these people laughing at him are actually atheists. They know God does actually atheists. They know God does actually atheists. They know God does not exist. And the madman says, "No, uh, not exist. And the madman says, "No, uh, not exist. And the madman says, "No, uh, you don't understand. Uh, God is dead."

you don't understand. Uh, God is dead." you don't understand. Uh, God is dead." And then, to sort of summarize what he And then, to sort of summarize what he And then, to sort of summarize what he says, he says, "God is dead, therefore says, he says, "God is dead, therefore says, he says, "God is dead, therefore everything has to change. You have to everything has to change. You have to everything has to change. You have to rise to become gods yourselves. You need rise to become gods yourselves. You need rise to become gods yourselves. You need to create meaning and truth for to create meaning and truth for to create meaning and truth for yourself." yourself." yourself." Um, the atheists are all very confused Um, the atheists are all very confused Um, the atheists are all very confused by this, and the madman he drops his by this, and the madman he drops his by this, and the madman he drops his lantern, it breaks, and and he says, lantern, it breaks, and and he says, lantern, it breaks, and and he says, "I've come too soon. "I've come too soon. "I've come too soon. Uh Uh Uh thunder takes time after the lightning thunder takes time after the lightning thunder takes time after the lightning bolt. bolt. bolt. Uh light from far planets takes time to Uh light from far planets takes time to Uh light from far planets takes time to arrive on Earth. I've come too soon." arrive on Earth. I've come too soon." arrive on Earth. I've come too soon." And what he means by that is his message And what he means by that is his message And what he means by that is his message demanding that people take seriously demanding that people take seriously demanding that people take seriously the practical philosophical implications the practical philosophical implications the practical philosophical implications of their atheism. of their atheism. of their atheism. That's not plausible yet. And to return That's not plausible yet. And to return That's not plausible yet. And to return to my earlier example of the sexual to my earlier example of the sexual to my earlier example of the sexual revolution, you know, the madman could revolution, you know, the madman could revolution, you know, the madman could have been proclaiming, "Hey, we're all have been proclaiming, "Hey, we're all have been proclaiming, "Hey, we're all sexually liberated." sexually liberated." sexually liberated." But that would have sounded ridiculous But that would have sounded ridiculous But that would have sounded ridiculous in the 19th century. Now, I think we in the 19th century. Now, I think we in the 19th century. Now, I think we live at a time when live at a time when live at a time when uh as I call it book, you know, the hour uh as I call it book, you know, the hour uh as I call it book, you know, the hour of the madman, yes, we live in a world of the madman, yes, we live in a world of the madman, yes, we live in a world where where where we are able to create our own values.

we are able to create our own values. we are able to create our own values. You know, transhumanism is is presenting You know, transhumanism is is presenting You know, transhumanism is is presenting us with the the dream or maybe the us with the the dream or maybe the us with the the dream or maybe the nightmare of overcoming all human of nightmare of overcoming all human of nightmare of overcoming all human of making ourselves gods. So, there's that making ourselves gods. So, there's that making ourselves gods. So, there's that time lag from the late 19th century when time lag from the late 19th century when time lag from the late 19th century when the madman bursts into the town square the madman bursts into the town square the madman bursts into the town square to today. You know, the madman predicted to today. You know, the madman predicted to today. You know, the madman predicted that. And one of the case I try to make that. And one of the case I try to make that. And one of the case I try to make in the book is this is the hour of the in the book is this is the hour of the in the book is this is the hour of the madman. You If you have nothing upon madman. You If you have nothing upon madman. You If you have nothing upon which to build your values other than which to build your values other than which to build your values other than your own will, your own will, your own will, then you have to accept the madman's then you have to accept the madman's then you have to accept the madman's challenge at this point. challenge at this point. challenge at this point. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, there's a quote in here that made me there's a quote in here that made me there's a quote in here that made me think a lot of that. You write, "The think a lot of that. You write, "The think a lot of that. You write, "The anthropology of modern Western culture anthropology of modern Western culture anthropology of modern Western culture is therefore naturally hostile toward is therefore naturally hostile toward is therefore naturally hostile toward traditional religion and requires either traditional religion and requires either traditional religion and requires either its dramatic revision to accommodate our its dramatic revision to accommodate our its dramatic revision to accommodate our autonomy or its wholesale rejection." autonomy or its wholesale rejection." autonomy or its wholesale rejection." Uh Uh Uh when you say that, Carl, I feel that. It when you say that, Carl, I feel that. It when you say that, Carl, I feel that. It feels like we're walking uphill, that feels like we're walking uphill, that feels like we're walking uphill, that we're walking into the wind when it we're walking into the wind when it we're walking into the wind when it comes to traditional religion, uh comes to traditional religion, uh comes to traditional religion, uh that's what I feel that's what I feel that's what I feel explain it then to me.

explain it then to me. explain it then to me. >> Yeah, I think that the you know, the the >> Yeah, I think that the you know, the the >> Yeah, I think that the you know, the the point I was trying to make there is point I was trying to make there is point I was trying to make there is you know, if if the modern cult of the you know, if if the modern cult of the you know, if if the modern cult of the self is the cult of authenticity, how do self is the cult of authenticity, how do self is the cult of authenticity, how do I know that I'm authentic? Well, I have I know that I'm authentic? Well, I have I know that I'm authentic? Well, I have to break with the past. I have to break to break with the past. I have to break to break with the past. I have to break with inherited values. I have to break with inherited values. I have to break with inherited values. I have to break with the herd. And And what has formed with the herd. And And what has formed with the herd. And And what has formed those values? What has formed that herd those values? What has formed that herd those values? What has formed that herd most in the past? It's It's traditional most in the past? It's It's traditional most in the past? It's It's traditional religion. So, the very intuitions we religion. So, the very intuitions we religion. So, the very intuitions we have as modern people uh in a sense have as modern people uh in a sense have as modern people uh in a sense iconoclastic iconoclastic iconoclastic or or or uh sacrilegious instincts. uh sacrilegious instincts. uh sacrilegious instincts. We need to to shatter that past. And the We need to to shatter that past. And the We need to to shatter that past. And the whole culture is is predicated on that. whole culture is is predicated on that. whole culture is is predicated on that. If you use the language of If you use the language of If you use the language of traditional religion, by and large, you traditional religion, by and large, you traditional religion, by and large, you you come across as oppressive. you come across as oppressive. you come across as oppressive. Uh I might use an example of uh I hate Uh I might use an example of uh I hate Uh I might use an example of uh I hate to keep using sexual examples, but the to keep using sexual examples, but the to keep using sexual examples, but the sexual revolution is the sort of the sexual revolution is the sort of the sexual revolution is the sort of the primary locus of this. Think about how primary locus of this. Think about how primary locus of this. Think about how the media reports, you know, the sports the media reports, you know, the sports the media reports, you know, the sports star who has left his wife and run off star who has left his wife and run off star who has left his wife and run off with another man. with another man. with another man. Uh typically, in the past, one might Uh typically, in the past, one might Uh typically, in the past, one might have thought a a gasp of horror.

have thought a a gasp of horror. have thought a a gasp of horror. Uh regardless of one's views of Uh regardless of one's views of Uh regardless of one's views of homosexuality, the horror of a wife homosexuality, the horror of a wife homosexuality, the horror of a wife being abandoned and children losing being abandoned and children losing being abandoned and children losing their father their father their father uh would have been the the driving force uh would have been the the driving force uh would have been the the driving force in how we think about that. Today, the in how we think about that. Today, the in how we think about that. Today, the the language used is often that of the language used is often that of the language used is often that of liberation. This person has been able to liberation. This person has been able to liberation. This person has been able to find themselves, to be true to find themselves, to be true to find themselves, to be true to themselves for the first time. Uh Think themselves for the first time. Uh Think themselves for the first time. Uh Think about that. about that. about that. What lies behind that is the idea that What lies behind that is the idea that What lies behind that is the idea that the traditional view of what it means to the traditional view of what it means to the traditional view of what it means to be a human being, the religious view of be a human being, the religious view of be a human being, the religious view of what it means to be a human being, to be what it means to be a human being, to be what it means to be a human being, to be one that stands in relationship to one that stands in relationship to one that stands in relationship to others, that's you know, involves others, that's you know, involves others, that's you know, involves obligations and dependencies, that obligations and dependencies, that obligations and dependencies, that requires us to fulfill our requires us to fulfill our requires us to fulfill our responsibilities towards others, most of responsibilities towards others, most of responsibilities towards others, most of all our children. all our children. all our children. That's oppressive. That's oppressive. That's oppressive. That's oppressive and our culture That's oppressive and our culture That's oppressive and our culture regards that as as problematic. So, that regards that as as problematic. So, that regards that as as problematic. So, that that drive against seeing traditional that drive against seeing traditional that drive against seeing traditional religion and the values that it involves religion and the values that it involves religion and the values that it involves as being as being as being sources of truth, but rather sources of sources of truth, but rather sources of sources of truth, but rather sources of falsehood and authenticity lies very falsehood and authenticity lies very falsehood and authenticity lies very very deep in our culture. And you see very deep in our culture. And you see very deep in our culture. And you see that often in even in the way that, you that often in even in the way that, you that often in even in the way that, you know, guys like you and I do our know, guys like you and I do our know, guys like you and I do our evangelism column. The the temptation to evangelism column. The the temptation to evangelism column. The the temptation to present Christianity as the as the thing present Christianity as the as the thing present Christianity as the as the thing that solves your problems, that solves your problems, that solves your problems, rather than the things that makes rather than the things that makes rather than the things that makes demands upon you. It's it's very demands upon you. It's it's very demands upon you. It's it's very powerful and and very deep and I mean, I powerful and and very deep and I mean, I powerful and and very deep and I mean, I don't want listeners to sit and think, don't want listeners to sit and think, don't want listeners to sit and think, you know, Truman saying, I thank you

you know, Truman saying, I thank you you know, Truman saying, I thank you God, I'm not like other men. You know, God, I'm not like other men. You know, God, I'm not like other men. You know, tragically, I'm just like other men. I I tragically, I'm just like other men. I I tragically, I'm just like other men. I I feel the the pull of the culture on that feel the the pull of the culture on that feel the the pull of the culture on that and that shows just how deep it is. You and that shows just how deep it is. You and that shows just how deep it is. You know, that's a really good example of know, that's a really good example of know, that's a really good example of the tensions that we face in evangelism the tensions that we face in evangelism the tensions that we face in evangelism and that's one thing that we deal with and that's one thing that we deal with and that's one thing that we deal with all the time at the Keller Center for all the time at the Keller Center for all the time at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics because at some Cultural Apologetics because at some Cultural Apologetics because at some level we're always teaching and level we're always teaching and level we're always teaching and evangelizing into felt needs, yet at the evangelizing into felt needs, yet at the evangelizing into felt needs, yet at the same time because that's how you're same time because that's how you're same time because that's how you're that's how you're heard. It actually that's how you're heard. It actually that's how you're heard. It actually reminds me of what Taylor talked about reminds me of what Taylor talked about reminds me of what Taylor talked about in the Ethics of Authenticity, where he in the Ethics of Authenticity, where he in the Ethics of Authenticity, where he spends the entire time deconstructing spends the entire time deconstructing spends the entire time deconstructing the problems with the authentic life and the problems with the authentic life and the problems with the authentic life and then in the end comes back and says, then in the end comes back and says, then in the end comes back and says, this is the only language anybody knows. this is the only language anybody knows. this is the only language anybody knows. So, that's what we have to speak. So, at So, that's what we have to speak. So, at So, that's what we have to speak. So, at some level, that's what we're dealing some level, that's what we're dealing some level, that's what we're dealing with in evangelism and apologetics with in evangelism and apologetics with in evangelism and apologetics today. At the same time, the temptation today. At the same time, the temptation today. At the same time, the temptation to let that dictate the terms and to to let that dictate the terms and to to let that dictate the terms and to present the gospel then as an offer that present the gospel then as an offer that present the gospel then as an offer that will improve your life as opposed to a will improve your life as opposed to a will improve your life as opposed to a demand from the God who created you and demand from the God who created you and demand from the God who created you and judges you is really strong.

judges you is really strong. judges you is really strong. Yeah. Yeah. But that's what I found Yeah. Yeah. But that's what I found Yeah. Yeah. But that's what I found certainly working with young people at certainly working with young people at certainly working with young people at college. Uh, I I I this course on sort college. Uh, I I I this course on sort college. Uh, I I I this course on sort of of of human personhood. I I human personhood. I I human personhood. I I It's the capstone humanities course at It's the capstone humanities course at It's the capstone humanities course at Grove, and I tried teaching it a couple Grove, and I tried teaching it a couple Grove, and I tried teaching it a couple of ways in the earliest to see of ways in the earliest to see of ways in the earliest to see to try to locate the language that to try to locate the language that to try to locate the language that resonated with young people. And And resonated with young people. And And resonated with young people. And And ultimately, I found the language of ultimately, I found the language of ultimately, I found the language of freedom and belonging was that which freedom and belonging was that which freedom and belonging was that which struck them because struck them because struck them because everybody wants to belong. Everybody everybody wants to belong. Everybody everybody wants to belong. Everybody wants to be free. Those are, if you wants to be free. Those are, if you wants to be free. Those are, if you like, therapeutic desires we have in like, therapeutic desires we have in like, therapeutic desires we have in order to to feel good. Then you can move order to to feel good. Then you can move order to to feel good. Then you can move on to the question of yeah, but to be on to the question of yeah, but to be on to the question of yeah, but to be free risks not belonging. And to belong free risks not belonging. And to belong free risks not belonging. And to belong risks losing your freedom. And then to risks losing your freedom. And then to risks losing your freedom. And then to move from there to to the gospel. Hey, move from there to to the gospel. Hey, move from there to to the gospel. Hey, if the son sets you free, you'll be free if the son sets you free, you'll be free if the son sets you free, you'll be free indeed. indeed. indeed. But you you're united to the son and But you you're united to the son and But you you're united to the son and therefore united to his people. So, you therefore united to his people. So, you therefore united to his people. So, you lose that libertarian freedom when that lose that libertarian freedom when that lose that libertarian freedom when that happens. And that for me has been my happens. And that for me has been my happens. And that for me has been my experience of wrestling with, you know, experience of wrestling with, you know, experience of wrestling with, you know, as you rightly put it, the only language as you rightly put it, the only language as you rightly put it, the only language that that that young people understand in this young people understand in this young people understand in this therapeutic world. But how do you parlay therapeutic world. But how do you parlay therapeutic world. But how do you parlay that into something better, into that into something better, into that into something better, into something truthful?

something truthful? something truthful? >> Yeah, what we try to do is the method of >> Yeah, what we try to do is the method of >> Yeah, what we try to do is the method of subversive fulfillment to show that it subversive fulfillment to show that it subversive fulfillment to show that it fails on its own rights, and then come fails on its own rights, and then come fails on its own rights, and then come in and bring in a different unexpected in and bring in a different unexpected in and bring in a different unexpected solution. Um, now, there's another solution. Um, now, there's another solution. Um, now, there's another another quote from the book that another quote from the book that another quote from the book that continues on this exact same theme. You continues on this exact same theme. You continues on this exact same theme. You write, "The autonomous unencumbered write, "The autonomous unencumbered write, "The autonomous unencumbered self-creator that is modern man can only self-creator that is modern man can only self-creator that is modern man can only be so if he repudiates the obligations, be so if he repudiates the obligations, be so if he repudiates the obligations, limits, and ends that find their most limits, and ends that find their most limits, and ends that find their most influential expression in the West in influential expression in the West in influential expression in the West in Christianity." Of course, what's in the Christianity." Of course, what's in the Christianity." Of course, what's in the background here, Charles Taylor's background here, Charles Taylor's background here, Charles Taylor's subtraction story of secularism. But I'm subtraction story of secularism. But I'm subtraction story of secularism. But I'm wondering, Carl, at what point does wondering, Carl, at what point does wondering, Carl, at what point does Christianity no longer loom as the foil, Christianity no longer loom as the foil, Christianity no longer loom as the foil, and the self-creator needs to stand on and the self-creator needs to stand on and the self-creator needs to stand on his own and defend the fruit of its his own and defend the fruit of its his own and defend the fruit of its flourishing? flourishing? flourishing? >> Yeah, that's very interesting. And >> Yeah, that's very interesting. And >> Yeah, that's very interesting. And again, one of the I I suppose the sort again, one of the I I suppose the sort again, one of the I I suppose the sort of rhetorical or polemical strategy in of rhetorical or polemical strategy in of rhetorical or polemical strategy in the book is is I look at a number of the the book is is I look at a number of the the book is is I look at a number of the the revolutions of modernity and say, the revolutions of modernity and say, the revolutions of modernity and say, "Okay, let's judge them by their own "Okay, let's judge them by their own "Okay, let's judge them by their own their own standards." So, you know, their own standards." So, you know, their own standards." So, you know, let's judge the sexual revolution not by let's judge the sexual revolution not by let's judge the sexual revolution not by whether it conforms with biblical whether it conforms with biblical whether it conforms with biblical teaching or not, but but whether it teaching or not, but but whether it teaching or not, but but whether it actually delivers what it promises. It actually delivers what it promises. It actually delivers what it promises. It promises to to free women promises to to free women promises to to free women uh in ways that have never been seen uh in ways that have never been seen uh in ways that have never been seen before in history, uh to put women on an before in history, uh to put women on an before in history, uh to put women on an equal footing with men. Well, what does equal footing with men. Well, what does equal footing with men. Well, what does it do? It actually, I think, turns women it do? It actually, I think, turns women it do? It actually, I think, turns women into lumps of meat in a way that they've into lumps of meat in a way that they've into lumps of meat in a way that they've rarely been that in in in the whole of rarely been that in in in the whole of rarely been that in in in the whole of history. Uh history. Uh history. Uh I look at uh I look at uh I look at uh birth and at fertility and think, you birth and at fertility and think, you birth and at fertility and think, you know, what what what does what do know, what what what does what do know, what what what does what do fertility treatments do? And this I

fertility treatments do? And this I fertility treatments do? And this I suspect will be the the chapter in the suspect will be the the chapter in the suspect will be the the chapter in the book I get most angry letters about. But book I get most angry letters about. But book I get most angry letters about. But I raise the question of on the one hand I raise the question of on the one hand I raise the question of on the one hand something like IVF, uh it it delivers something like IVF, uh it it delivers something like IVF, uh it it delivers wonderful happiness for for couples that wonderful happiness for for couples that wonderful happiness for for couples that can't have children. can't have children. can't have children. But then there's a deeper question of But then there's a deeper question of But then there's a deeper question of what does it do to the way that society what does it do to the way that society what does it do to the way that society thinks about children? Not the way the thinks about children? Not the way the thinks about children? Not the way the couple think about the child, but the couple think about the child, but the couple think about the child, but the way that society as a whole thinks about way that society as a whole thinks about way that society as a whole thinks about children. It It leads to children being children. It It leads to children being children. It It leads to children being kind of pieces of property. kind of pieces of property. kind of pieces of property. So, you know, one one of the ways we can So, you know, one one of the ways we can So, you know, one one of the ways we can we can avoid and and I think we have to we can avoid and and I think we have to we can avoid and and I think we have to now in this world where Christianity is now in this world where Christianity is now in this world where Christianity is is no longer really the foil is no longer really the foil is no longer really the foil is we have to do an immanent critique of is we have to do an immanent critique of is we have to do an immanent critique of the revolutions of modernity and say, the revolutions of modernity and say, the revolutions of modernity and say, "Okay, "Okay, "Okay, bracket out Christianity, let's see how bracket out Christianity, let's see how bracket out Christianity, let's see how you've delivered on your own promises." you've delivered on your own promises." you've delivered on your own promises." And and I argue in the book that in each And and I argue in the book that in each And and I argue in the book that in each case, in the case of uh birth, case, in the case of uh birth, case, in the case of uh birth, procreation, in the case of sex, and in procreation, in the case of sex, and in procreation, in the case of sex, and in the case of of death, the case of of death, the case of of death, we end up actually making ourselves less we end up actually making ourselves less we end up actually making ourselves less than human. It's not a liberating thing.

than human. It's not a liberating thing. than human. It's not a liberating thing. It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage It's a it's a it's a matter of bondage and degradation. and degradation. and degradation. >> All right, you're you're to prompt me >> All right, you're you're to prompt me >> All right, you're you're to prompt me then with that answer to jump straight then with that answer to jump straight then with that answer to jump straight to the question that I've been just to the question that I've been just to the question that I've been just building the whole interview toward, building the whole interview toward, building the whole interview toward, really wanting to ask. So, back in 2016, really wanting to ask. So, back in 2016, really wanting to ask. So, back in 2016, I was at a long sit-down with Ross I was at a long sit-down with Ross I was at a long sit-down with Ross Douthat at The New York Times, and we Douthat at The New York Times, and we Douthat at The New York Times, and we talked about the Catholic Church and talked about the Catholic Church and talked about the Catholic Church and Pope Francis. We talked about Donald Pope Francis. We talked about Donald Pope Francis. We talked about Donald Trump, who was not yet elected Trump, who was not yet elected Trump, who was not yet elected president. president. president. And in the end, he just said, "I'm not And in the end, he just said, "I'm not And in the end, he just said, "I'm not the least bit too worried I'm not the the least bit too worried I'm not the the least bit too worried I'm not the least bit worried about either of those least bit worried about either of those least bit worried about either of those things. I'll tell you what keeps me up things. I'll tell you what keeps me up things. I'll tell you what keeps me up at night. at night. at night. My My My girls and smartphones." girls and smartphones." girls and smartphones." And of course, he turned out to be And of course, he turned out to be And of course, he turned out to be correct in terms of what was happening. correct in terms of what was happening. correct in terms of what was happening. Now, that's common knowledge, later with Now, that's common knowledge, later with Now, that's common knowledge, later with the word of work of Jean Twenge and and the word of work of Jean Twenge and and the word of work of Jean Twenge and and Jonathan Haidt and others. Jonathan Haidt and others. Jonathan Haidt and others. But I'll tell you then what I'm most But I'll tell you then what I'm most But I'll tell you then what I'm most worried about, Coral, that you talk worried about, Coral, that you talk worried about, Coral, that you talk about in this book, that is genetic about in this book, that is genetic about in this book, that is genetic selection and artificial wombs. selection and artificial wombs. selection and artificial wombs. Uh you write about this in chapter five.

Uh you write about this in chapter five. Uh you write about this in chapter five. Uh this is an arguable point that we Uh this is an arguable point that we Uh this is an arguable point that we could survive this dramatic global could survive this dramatic global could survive this dramatic global fertility decline, barely, at least in fertility decline, barely, at least in fertility decline, barely, at least in some parts of the world. some parts of the world. some parts of the world. But this is what keeps me up at night. But this is what keeps me up at night. But this is what keeps me up at night. If we sever the givenness of children, If we sever the givenness of children, If we sever the givenness of children, the attachment and obligation from the the attachment and obligation from the the attachment and obligation from the parents who receive them, parents who receive them, parents who receive them, I don't know, Coral, if we can imagine I don't know, Coral, if we can imagine I don't know, Coral, if we can imagine the resulting devastation from that. the resulting devastation from that. the resulting devastation from that. I'm going to go further than that to say I'm going to go further than that to say I'm going to go further than that to say I don't know how, apart from God's I don't know how, apart from God's I don't know how, apart from God's miraculous intervention, we could even miraculous intervention, we could even miraculous intervention, we could even survive survive survive as a species. Go ahead. Tell me I'm as a species. Go ahead. Tell me I'm as a species. Go ahead. Tell me I'm overreacting here. Where am I wrong? overreacting here. Where am I wrong? overreacting here. Where am I wrong? >> No, I I I I think I mean I I would not >> No, I I I I think I mean I I would not >> No, I I I I think I mean I I would not want to be deterministic about it and want to be deterministic about it and want to be deterministic about it and say that we're we're definitely going to say that we're we're definitely going to say that we're we're definitely going to be crushed by this, but I do think it's be crushed by this, but I do think it's be crushed by this, but I do think it's one of those areas where we need to one of those areas where we need to one of those areas where we need to think very, very carefully. I think very, very carefully. I think very, very carefully. I I'm a fan of the of Kazuo Ishiguro's I'm a fan of the of Kazuo Ishiguro's I'm a fan of the of Kazuo Ishiguro's novels, and a couple of those have these novels, and a couple of those have these novels, and a couple of those have these sort of dystopian visions of sort of dystopian visions of sort of dystopian visions of human beings, you know, substandard human beings, you know, substandard human beings, you know, substandard human beings, which is an interesting human beings, which is an interesting human beings, which is an interesting concept in itself, becoming little more concept in itself, becoming little more concept in itself, becoming little more than organ suppliers for for for the than organ suppliers for for for the than organ suppliers for for for the elites. It's very dystopian view, but elites. It's very dystopian view, but elites. It's very dystopian view, but could become could become could become a real vision for society. Um a real vision for society. Um a real vision for society. Um Yeah, it's I I think the thing that Yeah, it's I I think the thing that Yeah, it's I I think the thing that keeps me awake at night, Colin, is is keeps me awake at night, Colin, is is keeps me awake at night, Colin, is is related to that. And that's the related to that. And that's the related to that. And that's the the absolute detachment that I think the absolute detachment that I think the absolute detachment that I think seems to have occurred between what I seems to have occurred between what I seems to have occurred between what I would describe as as, you know,

would describe as as, you know, would describe as as, you know, use the broad term moral philosophers use the broad term moral philosophers use the broad term moral philosophers and tech bros. and tech bros. and tech bros. Uh Uh Uh that, you know, by moral philosopher I I that, you know, by moral philosopher I I that, you know, by moral philosopher I I I mean, you know, I mean, you know, I mean, you know, obviously religious leaders, but also, obviously religious leaders, but also, obviously religious leaders, but also, you know, moral philosophers who may not you know, moral philosophers who may not you know, moral philosophers who may not have any religious commitment. There have any religious commitment. There have any religious commitment. There There does seem to me to be a cultural There does seem to me to be a cultural There does seem to me to be a cultural disconnect between those who wish to disconnect between those who wish to disconnect between those who wish to think about human beings in terms of a think about human beings in terms of a think about human beings in terms of a given moral structure. given moral structure. given moral structure. And the tech bros, for whom if we can do And the tech bros, for whom if we can do And the tech bros, for whom if we can do it, we might as well do it. it, we might as well do it. it, we might as well do it. That's the worrying thing. Uh I've used That's the worrying thing. Uh I've used That's the worrying thing. Uh I've used this example a couple of times, but I this example a couple of times, but I this example a couple of times, but I was talking It's actually to a was talking It's actually to a was talking It's actually to a a Muslim leader, a Muslim leader, a Muslim leader, an American Muslim leader I happened to an American Muslim leader I happened to an American Muslim leader I happened to be having a conversation with a few be having a conversation with a few be having a conversation with a few years ago, and he told me that he'd been years ago, and he told me that he'd been years ago, and he told me that he'd been invited to the Vatican as part of a invited to the Vatican as part of a invited to the Vatican as part of a delegation of delegation of delegation of secular moral philosophers, Christian, secular moral philosophers, Christian, secular moral philosophers, Christian, Jewish, and Muslim leaders to meet with Jewish, and Muslim leaders to meet with Jewish, and Muslim leaders to meet with the tech bros at gathering that Pope the tech bros at gathering that Pope the tech bros at gathering that Pope Francis had organized. He said, "The Francis had organized. He said, "The Francis had organized. He said, "The fascinating thing was on on day one all fascinating thing was on on day one all fascinating thing was on on day one all the tech bros gave their presentations, the tech bros gave their presentations, the tech bros gave their presentations, and day two was devoted to the, you and day two was devoted to the, you and day two was devoted to the, you know, the moral philosophers." He said, know, the moral philosophers." He said, know, the moral philosophers." He said, "On on day two, "On on day two, "On on day two, all the tech bros had gone home."

all the tech bros had gone home." all the tech bros had gone home." Yeah, they had no interest whatsoever in Yeah, they had no interest whatsoever in Yeah, they had no interest whatsoever in hearing about any moral limits that hearing about any moral limits that hearing about any moral limits that might be put upon their work. So, might be put upon their work. So, might be put upon their work. So, yeah, I think uh that's what keeps me awake at night, And that's what keeps me awake at night, And it's connected to say we we can develop it's connected to say we we can develop it's connected to say we we can develop these technologies, but if we develop these technologies, but if we develop these technologies, but if we develop them in a moral vacuum, them in a moral vacuum, them in a moral vacuum, then we are then we are then we are the slaves of wherever the technology the slaves of wherever the technology the slaves of wherever the technology takes us. And that's a very worrying takes us. And that's a very worrying takes us. And that's a very worrying thing. thing. thing. >> And I I want to press on a point that >> And I I want to press on a point that >> And I I want to press on a point that you made there, Carl. I don't think it's you made there, Carl. I don't think it's you made there, Carl. I don't think it's just the possibility we might as well. just the possibility we might as well. just the possibility we might as well. I actually think it switches into the I actually think it switches into the I actually think it switches into the categorical imperative. We must. categorical imperative. We must. categorical imperative. We must. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> If we can, we must. >> If we can, we must. >> If we can, we must. >> Yeah, I think uh >> Yeah, I think uh >> Yeah, I think uh I think there's something to be said for I think there's something to be said for I think there's something to be said for that. It's And And it leads to this that. It's And And it leads to this that. It's And And it leads to this strange strange strange uh uh uh a strange concept. Günther Anders in the a strange concept. Günther Anders in the a strange concept. Günther Anders in the in the 1950s coined this term I think he in the 1950s coined this term I think he in the 1950s coined this term I think he coined the term uh coined the term uh coined the term uh uh uh uh Promethean shame.

Promethean shame. Promethean shame. Uh and he he he said you know the Well, Uh and he he he said you know the Well, Uh and he he he said you know the Well, actually two things. Promethean actually two things. Promethean actually two things. Promethean gradients and Promethean shame. And gradients and Promethean shame. And gradients and Promethean shame. And Promethean gradient says was our Promethean gradient says was our Promethean gradient says was our technological ability is far outstrip technological ability is far outstrip technological ability is far outstrip our our our you know, our moral imagination. And he you know, our moral imagination. And he you know, our moral imagination. And he uses the nuclear bomb as an example. He uses the nuclear bomb as an example. He uses the nuclear bomb as an example. He says, you know, we can't possibly says, you know, we can't possibly says, you know, we can't possibly imagine what it's like to imagine what it's like to imagine what it's like to uh vaporize half a million people at the uh vaporize half a million people at the uh vaporize half a million people at the press of a button. But we can develop press of a button. But we can develop press of a button. But we can develop the technology to do that. the technology to do that. the technology to do that. And he says that the other side of it is And he says that the other side of it is And he says that the other side of it is that the more technically brilliant that the more technically brilliant that the more technically brilliant things we come up with, things we come up with, things we come up with, the more likely we are to start thinking the more likely we are to start thinking the more likely we are to start thinking of ourselves as as mediocre. of ourselves as as mediocre. of ourselves as as mediocre. And you see this a lot now in the And you see this a lot now in the And you see this a lot now in the rhetoric surrounding artificial rhetoric surrounding artificial rhetoric surrounding artificial intelligence, you know, intelligence, you know, intelligence, you know, artificial intelligence is going to be artificial intelligence is going to be artificial intelligence is going to be better than us. I was on a plane better than us. I was on a plane better than us. I was on a plane recently and watched this recently and watched this recently and watched this documentary on robotics. It's kind of documentary on robotics. It's kind of documentary on robotics. It's kind of fun cuz you see what all these robots fun cuz you see what all these robots fun cuz you see what all these robots can do, but then there was this can do, but then there was this can do, but then there was this underlying philosophical discussion underlying philosophical discussion underlying philosophical discussion about are they going to replace us? Are about are they going to replace us? Are about are they going to replace us? Are human beings necessary anymore? So, I human beings necessary anymore? So, I human beings necessary anymore? So, I think that's another another aspect to think that's another another aspect to think that's another another aspect to this that yes, we can do this, we must this that yes, we can do this, we must this that yes, we can do this, we must do this, and in doing it, we must make do this, and in doing it, we must make do this, and in doing it, we must make ourselves redundant.

ourselves redundant. ourselves redundant. >> Going back again to Ross Douthat in his >> Going back again to Ross Douthat in his >> Going back again to Ross Douthat in his podcast talking with Pete Thiel and the podcast talking with Pete Thiel and the podcast talking with Pete Thiel and the pregnant pause. pregnant pause. pregnant pause. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> Oh yeah. >> continue? >> continue? >> continue? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And doesn't have an answer. >> And doesn't have an answer. >> And doesn't have an answer. >> No. The It was a disturbingly long pause >> No. The It was a disturbingly long pause >> No. The It was a disturbingly long pause I felt that was. I felt that was. I felt that was. >> Douthat didn't let it go too long. It's >> Douthat didn't let it go too long. It's >> Douthat didn't let it go too long. It's still like wait, that is way too long. still like wait, that is way too long. still like wait, that is way too long. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> not be reflecting on that. What is the >> not be reflecting on that. What is the >> not be reflecting on that. What is the point? What does it tell us? What is the point? What does it tell us? What is the point? What does it tell us? What is the aim for any of this? aim for any of this? aim for any of this? Um you capture Um you capture Um you capture >> to be in my late 50s. I don't have to >> to be in my late 50s. I don't have to >> to be in my late 50s. I don't have to worry about this for too much longer. worry about this for too much longer. worry about this for too much longer. Good luck, kids. Good luck, grandkids. Good luck, kids. Good luck, grandkids. Good luck, kids. Good luck, grandkids. Oh, man. Well, let's talk about that Oh, man. Well, let's talk about that Oh, man. Well, let's talk about that because one of the challenges that comes because one of the challenges that comes because one of the challenges that comes with aging, we all experience it, we with aging, we all experience it, we with aging, we all experience it, we never think we'll experience it and never think we'll experience it and never think we'll experience it and somehow we all do, somehow we all do, somehow we all do, is feeling like life has left us behind is feeling like life has left us behind is feeling like life has left us behind and you just cannot keep up. You give and you just cannot keep up. You give and you just cannot keep up. You give the example in the book about a time the example in the book about a time the example in the book about a time traveler who jumps between 1200 and 1300 traveler who jumps between 1200 and 1300 traveler who jumps between 1200 and 1300 in England. 100 years. Lo and behold, in England. 100 years. Lo and behold, in England. 100 years. Lo and behold, nothing's changed.

nothing's changed. nothing's changed. >> Yeah. That's No. >> Yeah. That's No. >> Yeah. That's No. >> And I'm struck by Hartmut Rosa's concept >> And I'm struck by Hartmut Rosa's concept >> And I'm struck by Hartmut Rosa's concept of social acceleration. Thinking about of social acceleration. Thinking about of social acceleration. Thinking about with inventions like AI, I'm not sure, with inventions like AI, I'm not sure, with inventions like AI, I'm not sure, Carl, Carl, Carl, I know much about what life could look I know much about what life could look I know much about what life could look like in 5 years. like in 5 years. like in 5 years. Little on 100, little on 500, 5 years. Little on 100, little on 500, 5 years. Little on 100, little on 500, 5 years. What does that uncertainty mean then for What does that uncertainty mean then for What does that uncertainty mean then for our humanity? our humanity? our humanity? >> Well, I think it's >> Well, I think it's >> Well, I think it's it could have catastrophic implications it could have catastrophic implications it could have catastrophic implications for humanity, of course, because it for humanity, of course, because it for humanity, of course, because it leads to I mean it just on a sort of leads to I mean it just on a sort of leads to I mean it just on a sort of phenomenological personal level, it can phenomenological personal level, it can phenomenological personal level, it can lead to these tremendous feelings of lead to these tremendous feelings of lead to these tremendous feelings of anxiety that the world is is is anxiety that the world is is is anxiety that the world is is is constantly running away from us and constantly running away from us and constantly running away from us and yeah, we're running not just to stand yeah, we're running not just to stand yeah, we're running not just to stand still, but not to fall behind as as still, but not to fall behind as as still, but not to fall behind as as quickly as we might. So, there's quickly as we might. So, there's quickly as we might. So, there's definitely uh, existential angst that definitely uh, existential angst that definitely uh, existential angst that that, uh, that, uh, that, uh, uh, uh, uh, derives from this. And I think for derives from this. And I think for derives from this. And I think for Christians, in particular, of course, it Christians, in particular, of course, it Christians, in particular, of course, it it presses on us, so where do we stand? it presses on us, so where do we stand? it presses on us, so where do we stand? Where do we look for, Where do we look for, Where do we look for, uh, uh, uh, the way forward on this? And and again, the way forward on this? And and again, the way forward on this? And and again, one of the things I try to do in the one of the things I try to do in the one of the things I try to do in the book is say, "Okay, these are the book is say, "Okay, these are the book is say, "Okay, these are the problems. It's absolutely catastrophic, problems. It's absolutely catastrophic, problems. It's absolutely catastrophic, uh, uh, uh, but Christianity does have an answer."

but Christianity does have an answer." but Christianity does have an answer." And and I think again, I think it could And and I think again, I think it could And and I think again, I think it could be a tremendous opportunity be a tremendous opportunity be a tremendous opportunity because in a world where we have because in a world where we have because in a world where we have increasingly, increasingly, increasingly, uh, unstable notion of what it means to uh, unstable notion of what it means to uh, unstable notion of what it means to be a human being in an increasingly be a human being in an increasingly be a human being in an increasingly rootless world, uh, Christianity is a rootless world, uh, Christianity is a rootless world, uh, Christianity is a faith that can provide both both roots faith that can provide both both roots faith that can provide both both roots and stability for people. So, one of the and stability for people. So, one of the and stability for people. So, one of the things I want to press on on Christians things I want to press on on Christians things I want to press on on Christians from the through this book is say, you from the through this book is say, you from the through this book is say, you know, "Don't panic. It It's bad, know, "Don't panic. It It's bad, know, "Don't panic. It It's bad, but we merely have to face the but we merely have to face the but we merely have to face the challenges presented by our day, and we challenges presented by our day, and we challenges presented by our day, and we have the resources to do that. have the resources to do that. have the resources to do that. Uh, we just need to calm down and do Uh, we just need to calm down and do Uh, we just need to calm down and do what we need to do in the places where what we need to do in the places where what we need to do in the places where the Lord has has put us." I don't want the Lord has has put us." I don't want the Lord has has put us." I don't want to quote Gandalf on that point cuz to quote Gandalf on that point cuz to quote Gandalf on that point cuz everybody does that. It would make me a everybody does that. It would make me a everybody does that. It would make me a cliché, but Gandalf nailed it in The cliché, but Gandalf nailed it in The cliché, but Gandalf nailed it in The Lord of the Rings. >> Just assume Gospel Bound listeners and >> Just assume Gospel Bound listeners and and viewers, they know what you're and viewers, they know what you're and viewers, they know what you're referring to. referring to. referring to. There. There. There. That's It's that kind of It's that kind That's It's that kind of It's that kind That's It's that kind of It's that kind of crowd. Um, there is a lot of hope in of crowd. Um, there is a lot of hope in of crowd. Um, there is a lot of hope in this book, and I want to get to that this book, and I want to get to that this book, and I want to get to that hope, but we got to go a little bit hope, but we got to go a little bit hope, but we got to go a little bit through the mines.

through the mines. through the mines. >> trying to steer you in a more positive >> trying to steer you in a more positive >> trying to steer you in a more positive direction, man. direction, man. direction, man. >> We got to go We got to go through the >> We got to go We got to go through the >> We got to go We got to go through the mines a little bit longer here. mines a little bit longer here. mines a little bit longer here. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> So, one thing I I I try to do in my own >> So, one thing I I I try to do in my own >> So, one thing I I I try to do in my own teaching, and it's why I love this I teaching, and it's why I love this I teaching, and it's why I love this I love this book. I mean, love this book. I mean, love this book. I mean, a lot of it is discouraging, but there a lot of it is discouraging, but there a lot of it is discouraging, but there is so much hope in it. Again, we're is so much hope in it. Again, we're is so much hope in it. Again, we're talking about the desecration of man, talking about the desecration of man, talking about the desecration of man, how the rejection of God degrades our how the rejection of God degrades our how the rejection of God degrades our humanity. humanity. humanity. It's It's It's What I love about this book is we talk What I love about this book is we talk What I love about this book is we talk about a lot of you talk about a lot of about a lot of you talk about a lot of about a lot of you talk about a lot of specific things that are happening, but specific things that are happening, but specific things that are happening, but you get at the underlying philosophies, you get at the underlying philosophies, you get at the underlying philosophies, the underlying assumptions. You excavate the underlying assumptions. You excavate the underlying assumptions. You excavate those, you display them, so we can those, you display them, so we can those, you display them, so we can actually reflect on them. actually reflect on them. actually reflect on them. And so many times, I say this all the And so many times, I say this all the And so many times, I say this all the time wherever I go going teaching, the time wherever I go going teaching, the time wherever I go going teaching, the cultural cultural cultural currents that affect us the most are the currents that affect us the most are the currents that affect us the most are the ones that we're not paying any attention ones that we're not paying any attention ones that we're not paying any attention to. They're the ones that we take for to. They're the ones that we take for to. They're the ones that we take for granted. And so one of the things you granted. And so one of the things you granted. And so one of the things you write here, quote, "Technology write here, quote, "Technology write here, quote, "Technology encourages us to think of the world as a encourages us to think of the world as a encourages us to think of the world as a set of challenges to be overcome or set of challenges to be overcome or set of challenges to be overcome or limits to be transcended."

limits to be transcended." limits to be transcended." Now, we know in a lot of examples, not Now, we know in a lot of examples, not Now, we know in a lot of examples, not all of them, but a lot of example with all of them, but a lot of example with all of them, but a lot of example with medicine, we're very grateful for that. medicine, we're very grateful for that. medicine, we're very grateful for that. We look at the general prosperity and We look at the general prosperity and We look at the general prosperity and wealth that have lifted the poor around wealth that have lifted the poor around wealth that have lifted the poor around the world. These are positive the world. These are positive the world. These are positive developments that are are reflections of developments that are are reflections of developments that are are reflections of exactly that, the really technological exactly that, the really technological exactly that, the really technological explosion following the Industrial explosion following the Industrial explosion following the Industrial Revolution in England. Revolution in England. Revolution in England. Uh but I bet American Christians and Uh but I bet American Christians and Uh but I bet American Christians and certainly Christians in other Western certainly Christians in other Western certainly Christians in other Western countries do not know how much this view countries do not know how much this view countries do not know how much this view about technology and about this sense about technology and about this sense about technology and about this sense that it is our obligation as humans to that it is our obligation as humans to that it is our obligation as humans to overcome all challenges and limits overcome all challenges and limits overcome all challenges and limits pervades their orientation toward life. pervades their orientation toward life. pervades their orientation toward life. Cuz I'm wondering, Carl, what is the Cuz I'm wondering, Carl, what is the Cuz I'm wondering, Carl, what is the alternative? What's the response from alternative? What's the response from alternative? What's the response from Christianity to this cultural narrative? Christianity to this cultural narrative? Christianity to this cultural narrative? >> Yeah, I I think >> Yeah, I I think >> Yeah, I I think I I I I I I I'm going to put it in a very I'm going to put it in a very I'm going to put it in a very straightforward and simple way, but not straightforward and simple way, but not straightforward and simple way, but not you know, not denying that it would you know, not denying that it would you know, not denying that it would actually be very difficult to hash out actually be very difficult to hash out actually be very difficult to hash out exactly what this would mean. But I exactly what this would mean. But I exactly what this would mean. But I said, "What we really need is a said, "What we really need is a said, "What we really need is a normative notion of what it means to be normative notion of what it means to be normative notion of what it means to be a human being." Now, it's not easy to do a human being." Now, it's not easy to do a human being." Now, it's not easy to do that, particularly in a technological that, particularly in a technological that, particularly in a technological world. And as you've rightly said, you world. And as you've rightly said, you world. And as you've rightly said, you know, technology has given us some great know, technology has given us some great know, technology has given us some great benefits.

benefits. benefits. If I go to have a filling, boy, I'm glad If I go to have a filling, boy, I'm glad If I go to have a filling, boy, I'm glad to live in an era where we have local to live in an era where we have local to live in an era where we have local anesthetics, you know, that it would be anesthetics, you know, that it would be anesthetics, you know, that it would be terrible not to do that. terrible not to do that. terrible not to do that. I think the the question though is I think the the question though is I think the the question though is when we face technology, does this when we face technology, does this when we face technology, does this technology technology technology restore what it means to be human, restore what it means to be human, restore what it means to be human, enhance what it means to be human, or enhance what it means to be human, or enhance what it means to be human, or transcend or contradict what it means to transcend or contradict what it means to transcend or contradict what it means to be human? be human? be human? So, So, So, I would say local anesthetic, for I would say local anesthetic, for I would say local anesthetic, for example, there's there's nothing that example, there's there's nothing that example, there's there's nothing that contradicts what it means to be human to contradicts what it means to be human to contradicts what it means to be human to have a local anesthetic for for a dental have a local anesthetic for for a dental have a local anesthetic for for a dental filling. filling. filling. Uh Uh Uh if a child is born with one arm, for if a child is born with one arm, for if a child is born with one arm, for example, and we develop a technology example, and we develop a technology example, and we develop a technology that allows us to to grow an another that allows us to to grow an another that allows us to to grow an another arm, I would say that's that's a arm, I would say that's that's a arm, I would say that's that's a restorative process. We know that restorative process. We know that restorative process. We know that normatively human beings have two arms. normatively human beings have two arms. normatively human beings have two arms. If a child is born with two arms and we If a child is born with two arms and we If a child is born with two arms and we develop a technique for giving the child develop a technique for giving the child develop a technique for giving the child three arms, I want to say no. At that three arms, I want to say no. At that three arms, I want to say no. At that point, we're we're crossing a line. Now, point, we're we're crossing a line. Now, point, we're we're crossing a line. Now, exactly where that line can be drawn, exactly where that line can be drawn, exactly where that line can be drawn, that's a difficult one. That's why I that's a difficult one. That's why I that's a difficult one. That's why I began what I said by saying I'm going to began what I said by saying I'm going to began what I said by saying I'm going to make some fairly simple statements here, make some fairly simple statements here, make some fairly simple statements here, but there are some gray areas and some but there are some gray areas and some but there are some gray areas and some difficulties in knowing difficulties in knowing difficulties in knowing what's being transcended. Um what's being transcended. Um what's being transcended. Um but I'm I'm quite taken by distinction but I'm I'm quite taken by distinction but I'm I'm quite taken by distinction that that Hans Jonas makes. He's not a that that Hans Jonas makes. He's not a that that Hans Jonas makes. He's not a Christian. He was a I think a secular Christian. He was a I think a secular Christian. He was a I think a secular Jewish philosopher.

Jewish philosopher. Jewish philosopher. But he makes a a distinction in in in But he makes a a distinction in in in But he makes a a distinction in in in technological revolutions between technological revolutions between technological revolutions between technological revolutions that technological revolutions that technological revolutions that respect the human body, respect the human body, respect the human body, for example. So, he'd say the the for example. So, he'd say the the for example. So, he'd say the the invention of the automobile does not invention of the automobile does not invention of the automobile does not fundamentally affect the the substance fundamentally affect the the substance fundamentally affect the the substance of the human body. It allows the human of the human body. It allows the human of the human body. It allows the human body to move faster between A and B, but body to move faster between A and B, but body to move faster between A and B, but when you get out of the car, you're when you get out of the car, you're when you get out of the car, you're still recognizably still recognizably still recognizably a human being. And technology that gets a human being. And technology that gets a human being. And technology that gets to the core of what it means to be a to the core of what it means to be a to the core of what it means to be a technology that can, you know, around technology that can, you know, around technology that can, you know, around with our genetics. with our genetics. with our genetics. Technology that goes into the the Technology that goes into the the Technology that goes into the the biological substance of what it means to biological substance of what it means to biological substance of what it means to be a human. And that's where I think you be a human. And that's where I think you be a human. And that's where I think you we have to realize that at this point we have to realize that at this point we have to realize that at this point technology is beginning technology is beginning technology is beginning to to to to reshape. It's now again, it's to reshape. It's now again, it's to reshape. It's now again, it's you know, you know, you know, it it it it it it Where does CRISPR technology, where is Where does CRISPR technology, where is Where does CRISPR technology, where is it good, where is it bad? I have very it good, where is it bad? I have very it good, where is it bad? I have very good friends who have a a granddaughter good friends who have a a granddaughter good friends who have a a granddaughter with a genetic syndrome and with a genetic syndrome and with a genetic syndrome and he has said to me a number of times, you he has said to me a number of times, you he has said to me a number of times, you know, if if if if we'd known and and know, if if if if we'd known and and know, if if if if we'd known and and there was a technology that allowed us there was a technology that allowed us there was a technology that allowed us just to tweak the genes of the the baby just to tweak the genes of the the baby just to tweak the genes of the the baby in the womb and solve the problem, he in the womb and solve the problem, he in the womb and solve the problem, he said, I'd go for it.

said, I'd go for it. said, I'd go for it. And it's hard to argue with that. And it's hard to argue with that. And it's hard to argue with that. On the other hand, we know that CRISPR On the other hand, we know that CRISPR On the other hand, we know that CRISPR technology opens up a whole host of technology opens up a whole host of technology opens up a whole host of other possibilities as well. So, other possibilities as well. So, other possibilities as well. So, it kind of takes me back to my earlier it kind of takes me back to my earlier it kind of takes me back to my earlier answer on the, you know, the moral answer on the, you know, the moral answer on the, you know, the moral philosophers, the theologians. philosophers, the theologians. philosophers, the theologians. Technology needs to be somehow Technology needs to be somehow Technology needs to be somehow accountable accountable accountable to those kind of thinkers because we to those kind of thinkers because we to those kind of thinkers because we need to be operating with a normative need to be operating with a normative need to be operating with a normative view of what it means to be human in view of what it means to be human in view of what it means to be human in order to know what constitutes a order to know what constitutes a order to know what constitutes a responsible and what constitutes an responsible and what constitutes an responsible and what constitutes an irresponsible use of these things. Just irresponsible use of these things. Just irresponsible use of these things. Just a a a >> two more of the negative and then we'll >> two more of the negative and then we'll >> two more of the negative and then we'll close on the positive. close on the positive. close on the positive. >> Yeah, I'm beginning to feel on the edge >> Yeah, I'm beginning to feel on the edge >> Yeah, I'm beginning to feel on the edge here, you know, it's you have to pull me here, you know, it's you have to pull me here, you know, it's you have to pull me back soon. back soon. back soon. >> Well, I don't think I don't think people >> Well, I don't think I don't think people >> Well, I don't think I don't think people are paying attention unless they live on are paying attention unless they live on are paying attention unless they live on the edge a little the edge a little the edge a little bit bit bit of of where a lot of these things are of of where a lot of these things are of of where a lot of these things are going. There is social acceleration is a going. There is social acceleration is a going. There is social acceleration is a real thing and these are hard questions real thing and these are hard questions real thing and these are hard questions and and and what we're trying to provide here is a what we're trying to provide here is a what we're trying to provide here is a little bit of balance because most little bit of balance because most little bit of balance because most certainly American Christians, I think certainly American Christians, I think certainly American Christians, I think foremost and other Western countries, foremost and other Western countries, foremost and other Western countries, have a baseline assumption that have a baseline assumption that have a baseline assumption that technology is always good. It might be technology is always good. It might be technology is always good. It might be hard to adapt to, but generally there's hard to adapt to, but generally there's hard to adapt to, but generally there's a a strong sense a strong wig ish notion a a strong sense a strong wig ish notion a a strong sense a strong wig ish notion here that history is going in good here that history is going in good here that history is going in good places and that's being guided by places and that's being guided by places and that's being guided by technology.

technology. technology. Um, there's a manifest destiny Um, there's a manifest destiny Um, there's a manifest destiny underneath this especially underneath this especially underneath this especially um, in the west in the United States in um, in the west in the United States in um, in the west in the United States in particular. So, just asking a lot of particular. So, just asking a lot of particular. So, just asking a lot of questions about the downside is is questions about the downside is is questions about the downside is is bringing a little bit more balance and bringing a little bit more balance and bringing a little bit more balance and helping people to understand these are helping people to understand these are helping people to understand these are not easy questions to answer. not easy questions to answer. not easy questions to answer. Now, on this question I do think a lot Now, on this question I do think a lot Now, on this question I do think a lot of Christians have an instinctive of Christians have an instinctive of Christians have an instinctive aversion, aversion, aversion, but I'm not sure they know why. but I'm not sure they know why. but I'm not sure they know why. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> And I'm not sure the cultural logic is >> And I'm not sure the cultural logic is >> And I'm not sure the cultural logic is going to be enough to help us and that's going to be enough to help us and that's going to be enough to help us and that's assisted suicide. assisted suicide. assisted suicide. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I'm wondering >> I'm wondering >> I'm wondering is there any salient cultural logic that is there any salient cultural logic that is there any salient cultural logic that would militate against assisted suicide would militate against assisted suicide would militate against assisted suicide because because because generally speaking for the reasons we generally speaking for the reasons we generally speaking for the reasons we already laid out our culture is not already laid out our culture is not already laid out our culture is not worried about the afterlife or judgment. worried about the afterlife or judgment. worried about the afterlife or judgment. Uh, health care is expensive and Uh, health care is expensive and Uh, health care is expensive and becoming more so precisely because of becoming more so precisely because of becoming more so precisely because of end of life interventions or late in end of life interventions or late in end of life interventions or late in life interventions. Um, we've been life interventions. Um, we've been life interventions. Um, we've been discussing already the the the focus on discussing already the the the focus on discussing already the the the focus on autonomy and authenticity at the core of autonomy and authenticity at the core of autonomy and authenticity at the core of what it means to be a human in the west.

what it means to be a human in the west. what it means to be a human in the west. So, people should be in charge of their So, people should be in charge of their So, people should be in charge of their own fate. own fate. own fate. I suppose there is the residual I suppose there is the residual I suppose there is the residual Christianity about concern for the weak Christianity about concern for the weak Christianity about concern for the weak and the vulnerable being forced into and the vulnerable being forced into and the vulnerable being forced into death. death. death. Anything else that would help us to push Anything else that would help us to push Anything else that would help us to push back against this because it sure seems back against this because it sure seems back against this because it sure seems like like like the both the philosophical and financial the both the philosophical and financial the both the philosophical and financial incentives are pushing us straight incentives are pushing us straight incentives are pushing us straight toward assisted suicide. toward assisted suicide. toward assisted suicide. >> Yeah, I think >> Yeah, I think >> Yeah, I think on one level. I mean that that is a very on one level. I mean that that is a very on one level. I mean that that is a very bleak assessment, but I find it hard to bleak assessment, but I find it hard to bleak assessment, but I find it hard to to disagree with the overall trend. to disagree with the overall trend. to disagree with the overall trend. There are some interesting signs of of There are some interesting signs of of There are some interesting signs of of hope. Uh, hope. Uh, hope. Uh, you know, you know, you know, listeners may not know the name Diane listeners may not know the name Diane listeners may not know the name Diane Abbott. She was a labor MP in the UK, Abbott. She was a labor MP in the UK, Abbott. She was a labor MP in the UK, very left-wing labor MP and you know, I very left-wing labor MP and you know, I very left-wing labor MP and you know, I I've generally I've, you know, I've generally I've, you know, I've generally I've, you know, been watching Diane Abbott for over 40 been watching Diane Abbott for over 40 been watching Diane Abbott for over 40 years now, and generally regard her as years now, and generally regard her as years now, and generally regard her as an absolute left-wing crazy person. an absolute left-wing crazy person. an absolute left-wing crazy person. She made a very powerful speech She made a very powerful speech She made a very powerful speech uh in the UK House of Commons relative uh in the UK House of Commons relative uh in the UK House of Commons relative to the assisted dying bill, to the assisted dying bill, to the assisted dying bill, where she really laid into the fact that where she really laid into the fact that where she really laid into the fact that uh it denies the agency of of human uh it denies the agency of of human uh it denies the agency of of human beings, that it it does, as as you beings, that it it does, as as you beings, that it it does, as as you alluded to, uh Colin, it it it does make alluded to, uh Colin, it it it does make alluded to, uh Colin, it it it does make the weakest very, very vulnerable. So, I the weakest very, very vulnerable. So, I the weakest very, very vulnerable. So, I think there are some think there are some think there are some potential interesting allies on this potential interesting allies on this potential interesting allies on this question. I I don't know. Certainly, question. I I don't know. Certainly, question. I I don't know. Certainly, Diane Abbott would not uh say that she Diane Abbott would not uh say that she Diane Abbott would not uh say that she was a conservative Christian. I don't was a conservative Christian. I don't was a conservative Christian. I don't know if she professes any religion at know if she professes any religion at know if she professes any religion at all, but on that issue, she was quite all, but on that issue, she was quite all, but on that issue, she was quite magnificent, uh I I I

magnificent, uh I I I magnificent, uh I I I I think. Uh and I think the other side I think. Uh and I think the other side I think. Uh and I think the other side of it is we need to, as Christians, of it is we need to, as Christians, of it is we need to, as Christians, think about we we need to look at the think about we we need to look at the think about we we need to look at the the broader things in society that have the broader things in society that have the broader things in society that have led to assisted suicide becoming led to assisted suicide becoming led to assisted suicide becoming desirable. desirable. desirable. Uh Uh Uh how does this connect to our notions of how does this connect to our notions of how does this connect to our notions of family? How does it connect to our family? How does it connect to our family? How does it connect to our notions of obligations towards others? notions of obligations towards others? notions of obligations towards others? Is it not tragic that somebody is so old Is it not tragic that somebody is so old Is it not tragic that somebody is so old and alone and desperate that death would and alone and desperate that death would and alone and desperate that death would be preferable? be preferable? be preferable? Uh Uh Uh again, as we've alluded to, as you've again, as we've alluded to, as you've again, as we've alluded to, as you've alluded to a few times in this podcast, alluded to a few times in this podcast, alluded to a few times in this podcast, this goes absolutely against the the this goes absolutely against the the this goes absolutely against the the powerful cultural gravity of autonomy. powerful cultural gravity of autonomy. powerful cultural gravity of autonomy. But, on the other side of it is, I But, on the other side of it is, I But, on the other side of it is, I think, on it from a strategic point of think, on it from a strategic point of think, on it from a strategic point of view, is get the stories out there. view, is get the stories out there. view, is get the stories out there. Uh so many moral questions operate at Uh so many moral questions operate at Uh so many moral questions operate at the level of abstractions. the level of abstractions. the level of abstractions. A person A person A person uh dying by assisted suicide is an uh dying by assisted suicide is an uh dying by assisted suicide is an abstraction. abstraction. abstraction. My grandmother dying by assisted My grandmother dying by assisted My grandmother dying by assisted suicide, she's not an abstraction. I suicide, she's not an abstraction. I suicide, she's not an abstraction. I have a history with her. I always think have a history with her. I always think have a history with her. I always think of that interview that Peter of that interview that Peter of that interview that Peter um um um Oh.

Oh. Oh. Peter Singer gave. Peter Singer gave. Peter Singer gave. Uh great advocate for euthanasia, Uh great advocate for euthanasia, Uh great advocate for euthanasia, infanticide, etc. etc. Cared for his infanticide, etc. etc. Cared for his infanticide, etc. etc. Cared for his mother when she was she had dementia. mother when she was she had dementia. mother when she was she had dementia. And an interviewer asks him And an interviewer asks him And an interviewer asks him uh uh uh you know, was it not somewhat you know, was it not somewhat you know, was it not somewhat inconsistent or hypocritical of you to inconsistent or hypocritical of you to inconsistent or hypocritical of you to care for your mother when she'd ceased care for your mother when she'd ceased care for your mother when she'd ceased to be a person by your account? And And to be a person by your account? And And to be a person by your account? And And his answer, I I quote this verbatim in his answer, I I quote this verbatim in his answer, I I quote this verbatim in class every year, is class every year, is class every year, is yes, but I I guess it's it's different yes, but I I guess it's it's different yes, but I I guess it's it's different when it's your own mother. Well, the when it's your own mother. Well, the when it's your own mother. Well, the answer is why is it different? answer is why is it different? answer is why is it different? Your own mother's not an abstraction. Your own mother's not an abstraction. Your own mother's not an abstraction. So, I think from a a Christian So, I think from a a Christian So, I think from a a Christian apologetic or polemical point of view is apologetic or polemical point of view is apologetic or polemical point of view is we need to get the stories out there. We we need to get the stories out there. We we need to get the stories out there. We need to put faces to these things. And need to put faces to these things. And need to put faces to these things. And then I think then I think then I think we can expect to appeal to some we can expect to appeal to some we can expect to appeal to some non-Christians non-Christians non-Christians because you don't have to be a Christian because you don't have to be a Christian because you don't have to be a Christian to love your mother. You don't have to to love your mother. You don't have to to love your mother. You don't have to be a Christian to realize that the be a Christian to realize that the be a Christian to realize that the concrete human being is not an concrete human being is not an concrete human being is not an abstraction. abstraction. abstraction. >> We did that tell the story anonymously >> We did that tell the story anonymously >> We did that tell the story anonymously of an actual assisted suicide in of an actual assisted suicide in of an actual assisted suicide in California because I don't think Carl a California because I don't think Carl a California because I don't think Carl a lot of people understand what happens.

lot of people understand what happens. lot of people understand what happens. That somebody you love needs to That somebody you love needs to That somebody you love needs to administer to you a drug overdose. administer to you a drug overdose. administer to you a drug overdose. That's it. That's it. That's it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I mean, there's no there's no good way >> I mean, there's no there's no good way >> I mean, there's no there's no good way to die of a drug overdose. to die of a drug overdose. to die of a drug overdose. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So, I I still don't think a lot of >> So, I I still don't think a lot of >> So, I I still don't think a lot of people have even thought about the people have even thought about the people have even thought about the mechanics in that regard. Fairly similar mechanics in that regard. Fairly similar mechanics in that regard. Fairly similar to the abortion debate. Not a lot of to the abortion debate. Not a lot of to the abortion debate. Not a lot of people know exactly what happens in an people know exactly what happens in an people know exactly what happens in an abortion. And when they do, it's pretty abortion. And when they do, it's pretty abortion. And when they do, it's pretty legitimately horrifying. legitimately horrifying. legitimately horrifying. Carl, I actually had not thought to Carl, I actually had not thought to Carl, I actually had not thought to answer this question. This is a positive answer this question. This is a positive answer this question. This is a positive and it builds on that previous question. and it builds on that previous question. and it builds on that previous question. Did you know in writing your previous Did you know in writing your previous Did you know in writing your previous book, did you anticipate the radical book, did you anticipate the radical book, did you anticipate the radical shift that we would see on transgender shift that we would see on transgender shift that we would see on transgender issues? issues? issues? >> No, um for the first couple of years >> No, um for the first couple of years >> No, um for the first couple of years when I was asked to sort of do lectures when I was asked to sort of do lectures when I was asked to sort of do lectures and Sunday school talks, etc. on that, I and Sunday school talks, etc. on that, I and Sunday school talks, etc. on that, I always made the point I would often be always made the point I would often be always made the point I would often be asked, "Do you think it'll come to an asked, "Do you think it'll come to an asked, "Do you think it'll come to an end?" And my answer was always, "Yeah, I end?" And my answer was always, "Yeah, I end?" And my answer was always, "Yeah, I think it'll collapse under its own think it'll collapse under its own think it'll collapse under its own weight in the end, but not in my weight in the end, but not in my weight in the end, but not in my lifetime, in my granddaughter's lifetime, in my granddaughter's lifetime, in my granddaughter's lifetime."

lifetime." lifetime." The last few years we've seen some The last few years we've seen some The last few years we've seen some spectacular successes. Now, I want to spectacular successes. Now, I want to spectacular successes. Now, I want to warn warn warn affirm those and say that we we've seen affirm those and say that we we've seen affirm those and say that we we've seen some great stuff happening. some great stuff happening. some great stuff happening. Um Um Um but the the trans lobby still out there but the the trans lobby still out there but the the trans lobby still out there and it's very well funded. I did a piece and it's very well funded. I did a piece and it's very well funded. I did a piece just last week for the Washington Post just last week for the Washington Post just last week for the Washington Post on Tallerico and the trans issue. I can on Tallerico and the trans issue. I can on Tallerico and the trans issue. I can tell you that the people who tell you that the people who tell you that the people who corresponded with me after I'd published corresponded with me after I'd published corresponded with me after I'd published that piece, that piece, that piece, yeah, they're they're all in with the yeah, they're they're all in with the yeah, they're they're all in with the trans They're still these people are trans They're still these people are trans They're still these people are still there. It's still a big thing for still there. It's still a big thing for still there. It's still a big thing for >> transitioned their own children, they're >> transitioned their own children, they're >> transitioned their own children, they're not exactly going to give up here. not exactly going to give up here. not exactly going to give up here. >> Yeah, so one qualification would be, >> Yeah, so one qualification would be, >> Yeah, so one qualification would be, let's not do a victory lap. Let's keep let's not do a victory lap. Let's keep let's not do a victory lap. Let's keep the pressure on. I mean, there are some the pressure on. I mean, there are some the pressure on. I mean, there are some good legal action lawsuits making their good legal action lawsuits making their good legal action lawsuits making their way through the courts that I think will way through the courts that I think will way through the courts that I think will be very helpful. I do think it will be very helpful. I do think it will be very helpful. I do think it will collapse, but it's not over yet. And the collapse, but it's not over yet. And the collapse, but it's not over yet. And the second thing I would add and this I second thing I would add and this I second thing I would add and this I become more aware of since publishing become more aware of since publishing become more aware of since publishing the book is the book is the book is transgenderism In the book, I treated it transgenderism In the book, I treated it transgenderism In the book, I treated it as part of the LGBTQ political lobby.

as part of the LGBTQ political lobby. as part of the LGBTQ political lobby. In actual fact, I think philosophically In actual fact, I think philosophically In actual fact, I think philosophically it's part of transhumanism. it's part of transhumanism. it's part of transhumanism. And you know, praise God that Elon Musk And you know, praise God that Elon Musk And you know, praise God that Elon Musk was key in the current administration was key in the current administration was key in the current administration making some very sensible moves on on making some very sensible moves on on making some very sensible moves on on the trans issue. But make no mistake, the trans issue. But make no mistake, the trans issue. But make no mistake, Elon Musk is is part of a larger Elon Musk is is part of a larger Elon Musk is is part of a larger problem. He's not part of the solution problem. He's not part of the solution problem. He's not part of the solution Because he's a transhumanist. He's one Because he's a transhumanist. He's one Because he's a transhumanist. He's one of those tech guys who would love to see of those tech guys who would love to see of those tech guys who would love to see human beings transcend it. So, I think human beings transcend it. So, I think human beings transcend it. So, I think Christians need to be grateful, Christians need to be grateful, Christians need to be grateful, but also be discerning in in in how they but also be discerning in in in how they but also be discerning in in in how they think about this. And let's not take the think about this. And let's not take the think about this. And let's not take the foot off the gas yet. Let's foot off the gas yet. Let's foot off the gas yet. Let's Let's be uh let's be very vigilant on Let's be uh let's be very vigilant on Let's be uh let's be very vigilant on this one. But to go back to your this one. But to go back to your this one. But to go back to your question, no, I I did not anticipate the question, no, I I did not anticipate the question, no, I I did not anticipate the great stuff we've seen. And uh it's great stuff we've seen. And uh it's great stuff we've seen. And uh it's always struck me as rather ironic that always struck me as rather ironic that always struck me as rather ironic that women's sports proved the Achilles' women's sports proved the Achilles' women's sports proved the Achilles' heel. Some ways that was the thing I was heel. Some ways that was the thing I was heel. Some ways that was the thing I was least you know, I'm a hard-bitten male least you know, I'm a hard-bitten male least you know, I'm a hard-bitten male sports guy. It was the thing that least sports guy. It was the thing that least sports guy. It was the thing that least worried me. But I rejoice that that was worried me. But I rejoice that that was worried me. But I rejoice that that was the thing that grabbed the imagination the thing that grabbed the imagination the thing that grabbed the imagination and has I I think made the world safer and has I I think made the world safer and has I I think made the world safer for children and particularly for women for children and particularly for women for children and particularly for women in the last few years.

in the last few years. in the last few years. >> I explain it often using Jonathan >> I explain it often using Jonathan >> I explain it often using Jonathan Haidt's moral foundations theory and the Haidt's moral foundations theory and the Haidt's moral foundations theory and the concept of fairness. In homosexual concept of fairness. In homosexual concept of fairness. In homosexual reality, the entire argument made was reality, the entire argument made was reality, the entire argument made was that this is fair. that this is fair. that this is fair. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and fairness it cuts both ways. >> Um and fairness it cuts both ways. >> Um and fairness it cuts both ways. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Against transgender as much as it does >> Against transgender as much as it does >> Against transgender as much as it does in the same way as it does with in the same way as it does with in the same way as it does with homosexuality. You know, fairness is homosexuality. You know, fairness is homosexuality. You know, fairness is letting people do what they want. Uh letting people do what they want. Uh letting people do what they want. Uh doesn't work in sports. Not fair. doesn't work in sports. Not fair. doesn't work in sports. Not fair. >> of uh I can't remember his name, but the >> of uh I can't remember his name, but the >> of uh I can't remember his name, but the picture of the trans swimmer standing on picture of the trans swimmer standing on picture of the trans swimmer standing on the podium next to those, you know, the podium next to those, you know, the podium next to those, you know, comparatively tiny uh women swimmers. I comparatively tiny uh women swimmers. I comparatively tiny uh women swimmers. I think that think that think that Yeah. That was our equivalent in the Yeah. That was our equivalent in the Yeah. That was our equivalent in the trans issue of the sonogram for the trans issue of the sonogram for the trans issue of the sonogram for the abortion debate. That brought it home abortion debate. That brought it home abortion debate. That brought it home without any abstractions or arguments. without any abstractions or arguments. without any abstractions or arguments. That that made the point. That that made the point. That that made the point. >> Yeah, Lia Lia Thomas. >> Yeah, Lia Lia Thomas. >> Yeah, Lia Lia Thomas. >> Lia Thomas, yes. >> Lia Thomas, yes. >> Lia Thomas, yes. >> Okay, so I am going to I'm going to ask >> Okay, so I am going to I'm going to ask >> Okay, so I am going to I'm going to ask you about to explain the creed, the you about to explain the creed, the you about to explain the creed, the cult, and the code uh to be able to talk cult, and the code uh to be able to talk cult, and the code uh to be able to talk about a plan of consecration. But I'm about a plan of consecration. But I'm about a plan of consecration. But I'm pretty sure you know that I have to ask pretty sure you know that I have to ask pretty sure you know that I have to ask the question about Christian the question about Christian the question about Christian nationalists.

nationalists. nationalists. >> Because that part in the book is so >> Because that part in the book is so >> Because that part in the book is so vivid and so strong vivid and so strong vivid and so strong and I've said the same thing. I was and I've said the same thing. I was and I've said the same thing. I was doing an NPR interview with a very doing an NPR interview with a very doing an NPR interview with a very hostile live audience in Birmingham, hostile live audience in Birmingham, hostile live audience in Birmingham, Alabama and boy, they were just going Alabama and boy, they were just going Alabama and boy, they were just going after me about Christian nationalism and after me about Christian nationalism and after me about Christian nationalism and I said, "This is a fantasy. Yeah, I I said, "This is a fantasy. Yeah, I I said, "This is a fantasy. Yeah, I don't understand Like the less realistic don't understand Like the less realistic don't understand Like the less realistic it is, the more likely its proponents it is, the more likely its proponents it is, the more likely its proponents will be to be outspoken and that you'll will be to be outspoken and that you'll will be to be outspoken and that you'll be outraged by them, but it's Make no be outraged by them, but it's Make no be outraged by them, but it's Make no mistake, it's popular because it's not mistake, it's popular because it's not mistake, it's popular because it's not plausible." plausible." plausible." Now, what you point out many of the Now, what you point out many of the Now, what you point out many of the reasons of why it's not but I not just reasons of why it's not but I not just reasons of why it's not but I not just plausible, not desirable for Christians plausible, not desirable for Christians plausible, not desirable for Christians and this is what you This is what you and this is what you This is what you and this is what you This is what you say, quote, "One cannot transform the say, quote, "One cannot transform the say, quote, "One cannot transform the social imaginary by fiat. One can only social imaginary by fiat. One can only social imaginary by fiat. One can only do it by starting with a consecration of do it by starting with a consecration of do it by starting with a consecration of ordinary people doing ordinary things in ordinary people doing ordinary things in ordinary people doing ordinary things in their local communities." their local communities." their local communities." And boy, I can't give enough amens to And boy, I can't give enough amens to And boy, I can't give enough amens to that, Carl. that, Carl. that, Carl. How do we get the young men from sitting How do we get the young men from sitting How do we get the young men from sitting around doomscrolling edgelords around doomscrolling edgelords around doomscrolling edgelords to getting engaged in this in this to getting engaged in this in this to getting engaged in this in this battle in this challenge?

battle in this challenge? battle in this challenge? Ordinary people doing ordinary things in Ordinary people doing ordinary things in Ordinary people doing ordinary things in their local communities. How do we do their local communities. How do we do their local communities. How do we do that, Carl? that, Carl? that, Carl? >> It's hard. Of course, it's a it's a low >> It's hard. Of course, it's a it's a low >> It's hard. Of course, it's a it's a low energy solution. One of the things of energy solution. One of the things of energy solution. One of the things of modernity is we all want everything done modernity is we all want everything done modernity is we all want everything done by week on Wednesday. The problem is by week on Wednesday. The problem is by week on Wednesday. The problem is very deep-seated. The cultural problem very deep-seated. The cultural problem very deep-seated. The cultural problem is very deep-seated. It will take a long is very deep-seated. It will take a long is very deep-seated. It will take a long time to transform them. time to transform them. time to transform them. But as you were asking me the question, But as you were asking me the question, But as you were asking me the question, that verse came to mind, you know, "This that verse came to mind, you know, "This that verse came to mind, you know, "This kind come out only with prayer and kind come out only with prayer and kind come out only with prayer and fasting." I was thinking I said, "This fasting." I was thinking I said, "This fasting." I was thinking I said, "This is a spiritual problem and ultimately is a spiritual problem and ultimately is a spiritual problem and ultimately there is only a spiritual solution to there is only a spiritual solution to there is only a spiritual solution to it." it." it." Having said that, I think there are Having said that, I think there are Having said that, I think there are there are signs of hope on this front. there are signs of hope on this front. there are signs of hope on this front. Yes, I think Christian nationalism is by Yes, I think Christian nationalism is by Yes, I think Christian nationalism is by and large an online doomscrolling and large an online doomscrolling and large an online doomscrolling phenomenon. phenomenon. phenomenon. But we're seeing But we're seeing But we're seeing a significant move, particularly with a significant move, particularly with a significant move, particularly with young men, towards traditional young men, towards traditional young men, towards traditional religions. Particularly, I think religions. Particularly, I think religions. Particularly, I think Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but I don't Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but I don't Catholicism and Orthodoxy, but I don't see why good traditional Protestantism see why good traditional Protestantism see why good traditional Protestantism shouldn't sort of get in on the act, so shouldn't sort of get in on the act, so shouldn't sort of get in on the act, so to speak. So, there is a sign that that to speak. So, there is a sign that that to speak. So, there is a sign that that a a a a section of young men are fed up of a section of young men are fed up of a section of young men are fed up of the, you know, the the, you know, the the, you know, the Christian nationalist video gaming, for Christian nationalist video gaming, for Christian nationalist video gaming, for want of a better word, and want to be want of a better word, and want to be want of a better word, and want to be involved in in real life. And I think involved in in real life. And I think involved in in real life. And I think that the the key there is to that the the key there is to that the the key there is to to try to persuade them that to try to persuade them that to try to persuade them that the church and the local Christian the church and the local Christian the church and the local Christian community community community is a far more, you know, to go back to is a far more, you know, to go back to is a far more, you know, to go back to our how do you pull in people using our how do you pull in people using our how do you pull in people using therapeutic language, far more therapeutic language, far more therapeutic language, far more satisfying from a human perspective than

satisfying from a human perspective than satisfying from a human perspective than scrolling online. scrolling online. scrolling online. And I'm I I think we're seeing elements And I'm I I think we're seeing elements And I'm I I think we're seeing elements of of that. And then I think, you know, of of that. And then I think, you know, of of that. And then I think, you know, if you if you if you if you if you if you if you can talk one-on-one to to these if you can talk one-on-one to to these if you can talk one-on-one to to these young men, young women as well, and make young men, young women as well, and make young men, young women as well, and make the point that if you're looking to the point that if you're looking to the point that if you're looking to influence people, you know, just influence people, you know, just influence people, you know, just tweeting to the home crowd isn't going tweeting to the home crowd isn't going tweeting to the home crowd isn't going to influence anybody. Or just, to influence anybody. Or just, to influence anybody. Or just, you know, trashing the people you you know, trashing the people you you know, trashing the people you disagree with on Twitter is unlikely to disagree with on Twitter is unlikely to disagree with on Twitter is unlikely to persuade them to join your party. persuade them to join your party. persuade them to join your party. The real way to have an influence is to The real way to have an influence is to The real way to have an influence is to be involved in real embodied be involved in real embodied be involved in real embodied communities. Where can you have an communities. Where can you have an communities. Where can you have an influence? You can have an influence in influence? You can have an influence in influence? You can have an influence in your church, in your neighborhood, in your church, in your neighborhood, in your church, in your neighborhood, in your town. There are ways and means of your town. There are ways and means of your town. There are ways and means of of doing that. And try to capture the of doing that. And try to capture the of doing that. And try to capture the imagination uh with that. But as I said imagination uh with that. But as I said imagination uh with that. But as I said at the start, ultimately, this is a at the start, ultimately, this is a at the start, ultimately, this is a spiritual problem. We have to pray that spiritual problem. We have to pray that spiritual problem. We have to pray that the Lord will the Lord will the Lord will will change hearts and draw people will change hearts and draw people will change hearts and draw people into into the church so that this can into into the church so that this can into into the church so that this can happen. happen. happen. >> Well, as we as we conclude, let's talk >> Well, as we as we conclude, let's talk >> Well, as we as we conclude, let's talk about this plan for consecration in a about this plan for consecration in a about this plan for consecration in a desecrated culture.

desecrated culture. desecrated culture. Just briefly walk us through creed, Just briefly walk us through creed, Just briefly walk us through creed, cult, code. And by the way, all in on cult, code. And by the way, all in on cult, code. And by the way, all in on your recommendation for congregational your recommendation for congregational your recommendation for congregational singing. Love that especially. Go ahead singing. Love that especially. Go ahead singing. Love that especially. Go ahead and and and >> Yeah, well, the one of the great things >> Yeah, well, the one of the great things >> Yeah, well, the one of the great things it seems to me about seeing our problem it seems to me about seeing our problem it seems to me about seeing our problem as as desecration is one well, one I as as desecration is one well, one I as as desecration is one well, one I want to argue it's true, but two, it want to argue it's true, but two, it want to argue it's true, but two, it also sets up the obvious answer. If the also sets up the obvious answer. If the also sets up the obvious answer. If the problem with humanity is we're problem with humanity is we're problem with humanity is we're desecrated, desecrated, desecrated, the solution is we need to be the solution is we need to be the solution is we need to be consecrated and Christianity has an consecrated and Christianity has an consecrated and Christianity has an answer to that. It's called the church. answer to that. It's called the church. answer to that. It's called the church. Where is humanity consecrated? It's Where is humanity consecrated? It's Where is humanity consecrated? It's consecrated in the church. Now, there consecrated in the church. Now, there consecrated in the church. Now, there can be a tendency there that depending can be a tendency there that depending can be a tendency there that depending on the Christian tradition you come on the Christian tradition you come on the Christian tradition you come from, you can zero in on one aspect of from, you can zero in on one aspect of from, you can zero in on one aspect of church or the other. The kind of church or the other. The kind of church or the other. The kind of tradition that I belong to and I think tradition that I belong to and I think tradition that I belong to and I think you belong to too, Colin, we we tend to you belong to too, Colin, we we tend to you belong to too, Colin, we we tend to emphasize what I call the the creed. It emphasize what I call the the creed. It emphasize what I call the the creed. It tends to be a doctrinally very tends to be a doctrinally very tends to be a doctrinally very self-conscious and often fairly precise self-conscious and often fairly precise self-conscious and often fairly precise form of Christianity. So, we do the form of Christianity. So, we do the form of Christianity. So, we do the teaching well. teaching well. teaching well. But, But, But, yeah, we need more than good teaching to yeah, we need more than good teaching to yeah, we need more than good teaching to be truly consecrated. There's also what be truly consecrated. There's also what be truly consecrated. There's also what I call the, you know, the cult, I call the, you know, the cult, I call the, you know, the cult, the worship of the church. When we the worship of the church. When we the worship of the church. When we gather together and worship God, we're gather together and worship God, we're gather together and worship God, we're not simply going to a lecture. We're not not simply going to a lecture. We're not not simply going to a lecture. We're not simply going to have good teaching uh simply going to have good teaching uh simply going to have good teaching uh presented to us. We're going to be presented to us. We're going to be presented to us. We're going to be embodied in embodied in embodied in in in gospel life. So, I focus in the in in gospel life. So, I focus in the in in gospel life. So, I focus in the book, I talk about the importance of book, I talk about the importance of book, I talk about the importance of liturgy. And what I mean by liturgy is liturgy. And what I mean by liturgy is liturgy. And what I mean by liturgy is not, you know, not the Book of Common not, you know, not the Book of Common not, you know, not the Book of Common Prayer necessarily, Prayer necessarily, Prayer necessarily, but the fact that our worship services

but the fact that our worship services but the fact that our worship services need to have a a logic to them that need to have a a logic to them that need to have a a logic to them that reinforces the teaching. reinforces the teaching. reinforces the teaching. Yeah, have a confession of sin. Have a Yeah, have a confession of sin. Have a Yeah, have a confession of sin. Have a declaration of forgiveness. Uh I also declaration of forgiveness. Uh I also declaration of forgiveness. Uh I also point out and you you you hinted at this point out and you you you hinted at this point out and you you you hinted at this in in the question, you in in the question, you in in the question, you the beauty of congregational singing. We the beauty of congregational singing. We the beauty of congregational singing. We there are secular studies done that show there are secular studies done that show there are secular studies done that show that if you sing communally, that if you sing communally, that if you sing communally, you intuitively develop a view of what you intuitively develop a view of what you intuitively develop a view of what it means to be human that makes you it means to be human that makes you it means to be human that makes you realize that you're not an island, that realize that you're not an island, that realize that you're not an island, that you in relations of responsibility and you in relations of responsibility and you in relations of responsibility and dependency upon others. Uh if you're dependency upon others. Uh if you're dependency upon others. Uh if you're singing words of truth, how much more singing words of truth, how much more singing words of truth, how much more powerful is that effect going to be? So, powerful is that effect going to be? So, powerful is that effect going to be? So, we only not only need good teaching, we we only not only need good teaching, we we only not only need good teaching, we need to be involved in a local church. I need to be involved in a local church. I need to be involved in a local church. I think that's the New Testament vision. think that's the New Testament vision. think that's the New Testament vision. Paul has no vision of any Christian Paul has no vision of any Christian Paul has no vision of any Christian standing in isolation. standing in isolation. standing in isolation. We are all involved in the local body. We are all involved in the local body. We are all involved in the local body. And then I talk about the code. And then I talk about the code. And then I talk about the code. And often, certainly in in my Christian And often, certainly in in my Christian And often, certainly in in my Christian background, the code has been, you know, background, the code has been, you know, background, the code has been, you know, do this, don't do that. Particularly on do this, don't do that. Particularly on do this, don't do that. Particularly on the sexual front. There's a whole heap the sexual front. There's a whole heap the sexual front. There's a whole heap of things that you can or cannot do.

of things that you can or cannot do. of things that you can or cannot do. I I want a richer understanding of code I I want a richer understanding of code I I want a richer understanding of code to cover to cover to cover the whole of Christian life. And And if the whole of Christian life. And And if the whole of Christian life. And And if you're one of the underlying you're one of the underlying you're one of the underlying themes in the book is you themes in the book is you themes in the book is you If our tendency in desecration is to If our tendency in desecration is to If our tendency in desecration is to treat other people as objects, to not treat other people as objects, to not treat other people as objects, to not recognize them as persons made in the recognize them as persons made in the recognize them as persons made in the image of God, image of God, image of God, how do we combat that? Well, by treating how do we combat that? Well, by treating how do we combat that? Well, by treating them as persons made in the image of them as persons made in the image of them as persons made in the image of God. And God. And God. And what is the simplest way we can do that what is the simplest way we can do that what is the simplest way we can do that in our churches? Um hospitality. in our churches? Um hospitality. in our churches? Um hospitality. Uh I don't know about you, Colin, but I Uh I don't know about you, Colin, but I Uh I don't know about you, Colin, but I can still remember the names of the can still remember the names of the can still remember the names of the people who gave me hospitality when I people who gave me hospitality when I people who gave me hospitality when I was a student. I'm hard pressed to was a student. I'm hard pressed to was a student. I'm hard pressed to remember some of the professors' names. remember some of the professors' names. remember some of the professors' names. Don't remember any lectures I ever Don't remember any lectures I ever Don't remember any lectures I ever attended at college. But I do remember attended at college. But I do remember attended at college. But I do remember the houses the houses the houses that I visited on a Sunday for lunch, that I visited on a Sunday for lunch, that I visited on a Sunday for lunch, where people I hardly knew where people I hardly knew where people I hardly knew opened their most intimate space, their opened their most intimate space, their opened their most intimate space, their home, for me, and gave me food. They home, for me, and gave me food. They home, for me, and gave me food. They treated me like a real human person. treated me like a real human person. treated me like a real human person. And I think one of the beauties of that And I think one of the beauties of that And I think one of the beauties of that is of all this is, you know, as a is of all this is, you know, as a is of all this is, you know, as a Christian, we can be overwhelmed by the Christian, we can be overwhelmed by the Christian, we can be overwhelmed by the problems of the culture.

problems of the culture. problems of the culture. Not every Not everybody can be a Not every Not everybody can be a Not every Not everybody can be a teacher. teacher. teacher. Not everybody could be involved in the Not everybody could be involved in the Not everybody could be involved in the Keller Center and, you know, develop Keller Center and, you know, develop Keller Center and, you know, develop these great apologetic strategies for these great apologetic strategies for these great apologetic strategies for for addressing the world around us. for addressing the world around us. for addressing the world around us. Uh not everybody has the skills to be a Uh not everybody has the skills to be a Uh not everybody has the skills to be a worship leader. worship leader. worship leader. Uh Uh Uh but everybody has the ability to look but everybody has the ability to look but everybody has the ability to look into the eyes of another person and into the eyes of another person and into the eyes of another person and treat them as a human being. Everybody treat them as a human being. Everybody treat them as a human being. Everybody can be hospitable at some level. So, can be hospitable at some level. So, can be hospitable at some level. So, what I wanted to do in that final what I wanted to do in that final what I wanted to do in that final chapter was really present a an answer chapter was really present a an answer chapter was really present a an answer that I think correlates with New that I think correlates with New that I think correlates with New Testament teaching, Testament teaching, Testament teaching, but also but also but also eases the burden. Okay, I I can't go eases the burden. Okay, I I can't go eases the burden. Okay, I I can't go toe-to-toe with a Hegelian Marxist and toe-to-toe with a Hegelian Marxist and toe-to-toe with a Hegelian Marxist and bring them to to to Christ. bring them to to to Christ. bring them to to to Christ. But I can open my home to them and give But I can open my home to them and give But I can open my home to them and give them food. You know, Rosaria them food. You know, Rosaria them food. You know, Rosaria Butterfield's testimony of how she's Butterfield's testimony of how she's Butterfield's testimony of how she's moved from being a professor of queer moved from being a professor of queer moved from being a professor of queer theory to being the wife of an a theory to being the wife of an a theory to being the wife of an a reformed Presbyterian pastor. It wasn't reformed Presbyterian pastor. It wasn't reformed Presbyterian pastor. It wasn't that the pastor she came across was a that the pastor she came across was a that the pastor she came across was a brilliant apologist. brilliant apologist. brilliant apologist. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> He was just a kind man who opened his >> He was just a kind man who opened his >> He was just a kind man who opened his home to her.

home to her. home to her. Uh and I and I think we need to realize Uh and I and I think we need to realize Uh and I and I think we need to realize that hospitality, too, is a a spiritual that hospitality, too, is a a spiritual that hospitality, too, is a a spiritual thing and has tremendous spiritual thing and has tremendous spiritual thing and has tremendous spiritual impact upon those who are are its impact upon those who are are its impact upon those who are are its recipients. recipients. recipients. >> I love that. Love that. Uh we've been >> I love that. Love that. Uh we've been >> I love that. Love that. Uh we've been talking with Carl Trueman about his new talking with Carl Trueman about his new talking with Carl Trueman about his new book, The Desecration of Man: How the book, The Desecration of Man: How the book, The Desecration of Man: How the rejection of God degrades our humanity. rejection of God degrades our humanity. rejection of God degrades our humanity. And Carl, just wanted to end on a And Carl, just wanted to end on a And Carl, just wanted to end on a beautiful quote that beautiful quote that beautiful quote that continues right along the lines of what continues right along the lines of what continues right along the lines of what you've been sharing here. You write, you've been sharing here. You write, you've been sharing here. You write, "The church is the place where humanity "The church is the place where humanity "The church is the place where humanity as made in the image of God can be truly as made in the image of God can be truly as made in the image of God can be truly realized, not simply because her liturgy realized, not simply because her liturgy realized, not simply because her liturgy is beautiful, but because she is the is beautiful, but because she is the is beautiful, but because she is the place where the creedal truth expressed place where the creedal truth expressed place where the creedal truth expressed in the liturgy confronts our impulse to in the liturgy confronts our impulse to in the liturgy confronts our impulse to make ourselves gods and thereby leads to make ourselves gods and thereby leads to make ourselves gods and thereby leads to a transformation of each individual a transformation of each individual a transformation of each individual there. there. there. To use the popular triplet, in the To use the popular triplet, in the To use the popular triplet, in the church's worship, the true is manifested church's worship, the true is manifested church's worship, the true is manifested in the beautiful and thereby leads us to in the beautiful and thereby leads us to in the beautiful and thereby leads us to the good." the good." the good." Wonderful book. Thanks, Carl. Engaging Wonderful book. Thanks, Carl. Engaging Wonderful book. Thanks, Carl. Engaging interview just as I hoped and just as I interview just as I hoped and just as I interview just as I hoped and just as I expected. Encourage people to go out expected. Encourage people to go out expected. Encourage people to go out there and uh a look at the book. And there and uh a look at the book. And there and uh a look at the book. And then, more importantly, from there, get then, more importantly, from there, get then, more importantly, from there, get out there and make an ordinary out there and make an ordinary out there and make an ordinary difference with your ordinary life in difference with your ordinary life in difference with your ordinary life in your ordinary community in your ordinary your ordinary community in your ordinary your ordinary community in your ordinary church. Thanks, Carl.

church. Thanks, Carl. church. Thanks, Carl. >> Thanks, Collin. >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.