Reflections of a Seasoned Scholar (with Thomas Schreiner)

When I go back to some of the things When I go back to some of the things I've written a long time ago, I almost I've written a long time ago, I almost I've written a long time ago, I almost feel like it was a different person, feel like it was a different person, feel like it was a different person, right? I mean, I recognize my thought, right? I mean, I recognize my thought, right? I mean, I recognize my thought, but it's almost like I'm reading someone but it's almost like I'm reading someone but it's almost like I'm reading someone else. And I can almost read I I can read else. And I can almost read I I can read else. And I can almost read I I can read it objectively and think, "Yeah, I think it objectively and think, "Yeah, I think it objectively and think, "Yeah, I think that part's good." And then another that part's good." And then another that part's good." And then another part, part, part, yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way today. Welcome to the Biblical Theology Welcome to the Biblical Theology Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon. And I'm Ben Glad. And uh we are thrilled that you're Glad. And uh we are thrilled that you're Glad. And uh we are thrilled that you're joining us today on this special episode joining us today on this special episode joining us today on this special episode where we have another guest with us. So where we have another guest with us. So where we have another guest with us. So uh you know, Ben and I like talking to uh you know, Ben and I like talking to uh you know, Ben and I like talking to each other, but it's also nice to add each other, but it's also nice to add each other, but it's also nice to add another person into the mix. And uh we another person into the mix. And uh we another person into the mix. And uh we are privileged today to be joined by uh are privileged today to be joined by uh are privileged today to be joined by uh Dr. Tom Shriner. So let me give his Dr. Tom Shriner. So let me give his Dr. Tom Shriner. So let me give his official bio from the uh from the the official bio from the uh from the the official bio from the uh from the the school website here. uh an associate school website here. uh an associate school website here. uh an associate dean for the school of theology and the dean for the school of theology and the dean for the school of theology and the James Buchanan Harrison professor of New James Buchanan Harrison professor of New James Buchanan Harrison professor of New Testament interpretation and professor Testament interpretation and professor Testament interpretation and professor of biblical theology at the Southern of biblical theology at the Southern of biblical theology at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Baptist Theological Seminary in Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky. So Tom, I don't Louisville, Kentucky. So Tom, I don't Louisville, Kentucky. So Tom, I don't know how you fit all of that on a know how you fit all of that on a know how you fit all of that on a business card. Um but uh we are grateful business card. Um but uh we are grateful business card. Um but uh we are grateful for you joining the program today. Well, for you joining the program today. Well, for you joining the program today. Well, Matt and and Ben, it's great to be with Matt and and Ben, it's great to be with Matt and and Ben, it's great to be with you.

you. you. >> Before the program started, we were >> Before the program started, we were >> Before the program started, we were actually talking a little bit about your actually talking a little bit about your actually talking a little bit about your uh adventures in shoveling and so um you uh adventures in shoveling and so um you uh adventures in shoveling and so um you know, it's living in Louisville, that's know, it's living in Louisville, that's know, it's living in Louisville, that's not really a common experience. Uh I I not really a common experience. Uh I I not really a common experience. Uh I I assume, right? assume, right? assume, right? >> Well, exactly. I lived 11 years in >> Well, exactly. I lived 11 years in >> Well, exactly. I lived 11 years in Minnesota, but it's quite common. But in Minnesota, but it's quite common. But in Minnesota, but it's quite common. But in but in Louisville, the driveways are a but in Louisville, the driveways are a but in Louisville, the driveways are a lot bigger. lot bigger. lot bigger. So when you get a snow, there's there's So when you get a snow, there's there's So when you get a snow, there's there's more shoveling to do. Absolutely. more shoveling to do. Absolutely. more shoveling to do. Absolutely. >> But not as many times to shovel. >> But not as many times to shovel. >> But not as many times to shovel. >> And And how long How long did you shovel >> And And how long How long did you shovel >> And And how long How long did you shovel for the other day? for the other day? for the other day? >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> 3 and 1/2 hours. >> It was one of the It was one of the >> It was one of the It was one of the >> It was one of the It was one of the hardest snows, if we want to talk about hardest snows, if we want to talk about hardest snows, if we want to talk about this, I've ever shovelled because ice. this, I've ever shovelled because ice. this, I've ever shovelled because ice. There was ice on top. There was ice on top. There was ice on top. >> So I had to cut it. I had to cut it and >> So I had to cut it. I had to cut it and >> So I had to cut it. I had to cut it and then the ice stuck to the shovel. I had then the ice stuck to the shovel. I had then the ice stuck to the shovel. I had to cut it and then shovel it. Tom, I'm to cut it and then shovel it. Tom, I'm to cut it and then shovel it. Tom, I'm more now just hearing you talk about more now just hearing you talk about more now just hearing you talk about this. this. this. I mean, Ben and I knew that you're uh I mean, Ben and I knew that you're uh I mean, Ben and I knew that you're uh you're knew of your expertise in you're knew of your expertise in you're knew of your expertise in biblical theology. I'm not sure we knew biblical theology. I'm not sure we knew biblical theology. I'm not sure we knew of your expertise in snow removal before of your expertise in snow removal before of your expertise in snow removal before today. So, you're you're a true today. So, you're you're a true today. So, you're you're a true Renaissance man.

Renaissance man. Renaissance man. >> If if that's qualifies me to be a >> If if that's qualifies me to be a >> If if that's qualifies me to be a Renaissance man, I accept the honor. Renaissance man, I accept the honor. Renaissance man, I accept the honor. >> Okay. All right. >> Okay. All right. >> Okay. All right. >> Hey, Tom, I've I've read a lot of your >> Hey, Tom, I've I've read a lot of your >> Hey, Tom, I've I've read a lot of your stuff over the years. stuff over the years. stuff over the years. I mean, it's been I mean, I I started a I mean, it's been I mean, I I started a I mean, it's been I mean, I I started a I was a graduate student in the early I was a graduate student in the early I was a graduate student in the early 2000s, so it's been over 20 years, and 2000s, so it's been over 20 years, and 2000s, so it's been over 20 years, and you're one of the first authors that I you're one of the first authors that I you're one of the first authors that I read, uh, guys like you and Don Carson. read, uh, guys like you and Don Carson. read, uh, guys like you and Don Carson. And, uh, you know, really from the And, uh, you know, really from the And, uh, you know, really from the beginning since I started reading you, beginning since I started reading you, beginning since I started reading you, uh, I noticed that you've always had a uh, I noticed that you've always had a uh, I noticed that you've always had a love for obviously the scriptures, but love for obviously the scriptures, but love for obviously the scriptures, but for biblical theology specifically. And for biblical theology specifically. And for biblical theology specifically. And was there a point when the lights turned was there a point when the lights turned was there a point when the lights turned on or when you were like, "Yes, I really on or when you were like, "Yes, I really on or when you were like, "Yes, I really am passionate about this. This is am passionate about this. This is am passionate about this. This is something I want to do." Uh, or was it something I want to do." Uh, or was it something I want to do." Uh, or was it just just through the years, was it a just just through the years, was it a just just through the years, was it a gradual process? gradual process? gradual process? >> Yeah, I so I was a student at Western >> Yeah, I so I was a student at Western >> Yeah, I so I was a student at Western Seminary, which is in Portland, Oregon. Seminary, which is in Portland, Oregon. Seminary, which is in Portland, Oregon. I'm from Oregon originally, and I I was I'm from Oregon originally, and I I was I'm from Oregon originally, and I I was taking a my first year, I was taking an taking a my first year, I was taking an taking a my first year, I was taking an Old Testament theology class from Ron Old Testament theology class from Ron Old Testament theology class from Ron Allen, Allen, Allen, and uh that was a great class. I learned and uh that was a great class. I learned and uh that was a great class. I learned so much and I'd that interested me in so much and I'd that interested me in so much and I'd that interested me in biblical theology but it was what was it biblical theology but it was what was it biblical theology but it was what was it 19 it's 1976 and he mentioned 19 it's 1976 and he mentioned 19 it's 1976 and he mentioned uh there a new book out on New Testament uh there a new book out on New Testament uh there a new book out on New Testament theology which I I was a first year theology which I I was a first year theology which I I was a first year student I didn't know anything about New student I didn't know anything about New student I didn't know anything about New Testament theology but he mentioned a Testament theology but he mentioned a Testament theology but he mentioned a book by George Lad the theology of the book by George Lad the theology of the book by George Lad the theology of the New Testament and he said hey this is a New Testament and he said hey this is a New Testament and he said hey this is a new book that's out this would be worth new book that's out this would be worth new book that's out this would be worth reading so that summer during my break I

reading so that summer during my break I reading so that summer during my break I bought that book and I read it and I bought that book and I read it and I bought that book and I read it and I absolutely loved it. It I had never read absolutely loved it. It I had never read absolutely loved it. It I had never read I mean of course I'm 22 years old but I I mean of course I'm 22 years old but I I mean of course I'm 22 years old but I had never read anything like that before had never read anything like that before had never read anything like that before and especially I suppose what he wrote and especially I suppose what he wrote and especially I suppose what he wrote about the gospels. It was all so new to about the gospels. It was all so new to about the gospels. It was all so new to me and about the kingdom and yeah, I'd me and about the kingdom and yeah, I'd me and about the kingdom and yeah, I'd say my I I mean that Old Testament say my I I mean that Old Testament say my I I mean that Old Testament theology class played a big role. But theology class played a big role. But theology class played a big role. But lad's book and and I later applied to go lad's book and and I later applied to go lad's book and and I later applied to go to Fuller Seminary where I did my PhD. to Fuller Seminary where I did my PhD. to Fuller Seminary where I did my PhD. Now, I didn't lad wasn't well enough to Now, I didn't lad wasn't well enough to Now, I didn't lad wasn't well enough to be my teacher by then, but uh yeah, lad be my teacher by then, but uh yeah, lad be my teacher by then, but uh yeah, lad lad just had a huge influence on me and lad just had a huge influence on me and lad just had a huge influence on me and and that that was really the beginning and that that was really the beginning and that that was really the beginning of my love for biblical theology. You of my love for biblical theology. You of my love for biblical theology. You know, I'd add to it. You Western know, I'd add to it. You Western know, I'd add to it. You Western seminary when I went there, it was a seminary when I went there, it was a seminary when I went there, it was a great experience. It was basically a great experience. It was basically a great experience. It was basically a baby Dallas seminary. baby Dallas seminary. baby Dallas seminary. >> Almost all the professors were from >> Almost all the professors were from >> Almost all the professors were from Dallas. So, uh, I'm not a Dallas. So, uh, I'm not a Dallas. So, uh, I'm not a dispensationalist, but the advantage of dispensationalist, but the advantage of dispensationalist, but the advantage of going to that school is the going to that school is the going to that school is the dispensationalist teachers, we're always dispensationalist teachers, we're always dispensationalist teachers, we're always trying to put the whole Bible together.

trying to put the whole Bible together. trying to put the whole Bible together. How how does the whole Bible fit How how does the whole Bible fit How how does the whole Bible fit together? So, my teachers also together? So, my teachers also together? So, my teachers also stimulated an interest in me. Um, yeah, stimulated an interest in me. Um, yeah, stimulated an interest in me. Um, yeah, how does it all fit together? Even even how does it all fit together? Even even how does it all fit together? Even even being taught that dispensational schema being taught that dispensational schema being taught that dispensational schema made made me think about early on. So, made made me think about early on. So, made made me think about early on. So, how do I understand the testament? So, I how do I understand the testament? So, I how do I understand the testament? So, I did my dissertation on circumcision and did my dissertation on circumcision and did my dissertation on circumcision and I did it on circumcision for biblical I did it on circumcision for biblical I did it on circumcision for biblical theological reasons because I wanted to theological reasons because I wanted to theological reasons because I wanted to see okay why why is it in the new see okay why why is it in the new see okay why why is it in the new covenant covenant covenant um circumcision isn't required. um circumcision isn't required. um circumcision isn't required. >> Maybe talk a little about um so so you >> Maybe talk a little about um so so you >> Maybe talk a little about um so so you you worked under was was it Dan Fuller you worked under was was it Dan Fuller you worked under was was it Dan Fuller that that was your supervisor? that that was your supervisor? that that was your supervisor? >> No, I worked I worked under Don Hagner. >> No, I worked I worked under Don Hagner. >> No, I worked I worked under Don Hagner. Oh, Oh, Oh, >> okay. >> okay. >> okay. >> Yeah. So Don Yeah. Don was a great and >> Yeah. So Don Yeah. Don was a great and >> Yeah. So Don Yeah. Don was a great and wonderful supervisor. Don's still alive. wonderful supervisor. Don's still alive. wonderful supervisor. Don's still alive. Yeah. Uh Ralph Martin mainly uh Yeah. Uh Ralph Martin mainly uh Yeah. Uh Ralph Martin mainly uh Ralph Martin and Don Hagner. Dan was in Ralph Martin and Don Hagner. Dan was in Ralph Martin and Don Hagner. Dan was in the hermeneutics department, but I was the hermeneutics department, but I was the hermeneutics department, but I was in New Testament. So I actually had very in New Testament. So I actually had very in New Testament. So I actually had very little contact with Dan. Although later, little contact with Dan. Although later, little contact with Dan. Although later, I mean that's really not part of our I mean that's really not part of our I mean that's really not part of our story. Later John Piper was my pastor story. Later John Piper was my pastor story. Later John Piper was my pastor for 11 years.

for 11 years. for 11 years. >> Interesting. When I got to know John, I >> Interesting. When I got to know John, I >> Interesting. When I got to know John, I wished I would have taken Dan for a few wished I would have taken Dan for a few wished I would have taken Dan for a few for some courses, but I never did. for some courses, but I never did. for some courses, but I never did. >> Yeah. Well, I wondered because I know uh >> Yeah. Well, I wondered because I know uh >> Yeah. Well, I wondered because I know uh Dan Fuller was so in influential in in Dan Fuller was so in influential in in Dan Fuller was so in influential in in as you mentioned John Piper's uh as you mentioned John Piper's uh as you mentioned John Piper's uh thinking in terms of the unity of the thinking in terms of the unity of the thinking in terms of the unity of the Bible and um I didn't know if you had Bible and um I didn't know if you had Bible and um I didn't know if you had much contact with him having also been much contact with him having also been much contact with him having also been at Fuller. But um I want to pivot a at Fuller. But um I want to pivot a at Fuller. But um I want to pivot a little bit in terms of so you've written little bit in terms of so you've written little bit in terms of so you've written a lot in the area of biblical theology a lot in the area of biblical theology a lot in the area of biblical theology and you've spent a good portion of your and you've spent a good portion of your and you've spent a good portion of your of your ministry helping equip people to of your ministry helping equip people to of your ministry helping equip people to read the Bible effectively read the read the Bible effectively read the read the Bible effectively read the whole Bible well using biblical whole Bible well using biblical whole Bible well using biblical theology. I I wonder if you could maybe theology. I I wonder if you could maybe theology. I I wonder if you could maybe comment on some common mistakes or comment on some common mistakes or comment on some common mistakes or pitfalls that people uh make when they pitfalls that people uh make when they pitfalls that people uh make when they when they try to do biblical theology. when they try to do biblical theology. when they try to do biblical theology. What are some mistakes that you see that What are some mistakes that you see that What are some mistakes that you see that that are uh common that you that you that are uh common that you that you that are uh common that you that you think? think? think? >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's a good >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's a good >> Yeah. Yeah. That that's that's a good question. I think um I think one problem question. I think um I think one problem question. I think um I think one problem is relying on a word study approach kind is relying on a word study approach kind is relying on a word study approach kind of uh of uh of uh in in in a way it almost becomes in in in a way it almost becomes in in in a way it almost becomes rabbitic you know uh when I when I see rabbitic you know uh when I when I see rabbitic you know uh when I when I see mistakes made sometimes mistakes made sometimes mistakes made sometimes uh you know they look at a particular uh you know they look at a particular uh you know they look at a particular word and they they draw connections word and they they draw connections word and they they draw connections which I don't think are warranted which I don't think are warranted which I don't think are warranted contextually. So I mean in a way it's a

contextually. So I mean in a way it's a contextually. So I mean in a way it's a very basic rule right we we when when we very basic rule right we we when when we very basic rule right we we when when we draw biblical theology connections we draw biblical theology connections we draw biblical theology connections we want to draw them contextually want to draw them contextually want to draw them contextually but I think we can get so entranced but I think we can get so entranced but I think we can get so entranced with uh with the beauty of how the whole with uh with the beauty of how the whole with uh with the beauty of how the whole Bible fits together that connections can Bible fits together that connections can Bible fits together that connections can be drawn that really aren't that aren't be drawn that really aren't that aren't be drawn that really aren't that aren't warranted. That that's really the main warranted. That that's really the main warranted. That that's really the main problem I see at least. I mean, I'm not problem I see at least. I mean, I'm not problem I see at least. I mean, I'm not I honestly I'm in a really great church I honestly I'm in a really great church I honestly I'm in a really great church where our pastor does a great job of where our pastor does a great job of where our pastor does a great job of preaching the word. So, I'm not on the preaching the word. So, I'm not on the preaching the word. So, I'm not on the popular circuit that often, but I'm but popular circuit that often, but I'm but popular circuit that often, but I'm but I'm thinking more even of scholarly I'm thinking more even of scholarly I'm thinking more even of scholarly works when I say this, but I think there works when I say this, but I think there works when I say this, but I think there can be an attempt to to draw connections can be an attempt to to draw connections can be an attempt to to draw connections that really that really aren't that really that really aren't that really that really aren't warranted. Now, of course, that's a warranted. Now, of course, that's a warranted. Now, of course, that's a difficult matter, isn't it? because difficult matter, isn't it? because difficult matter, isn't it? because um um um we we also want to we want to draw we we also want to we want to draw we we also want to we want to draw connections that people have missed. So connections that people have missed. So connections that people have missed. So where that line is sometimes is is where that line is sometimes is is where that line is sometimes is is difficult uh to discern. So I I think difficult uh to discern. So I I think difficult uh to discern. So I I think I'm even indicting myself when I say I'm even indicting myself when I say I'm even indicting myself when I say this. I think sometimes sometimes I've this. I think sometimes sometimes I've this. I think sometimes sometimes I've probably drawn connections that aren't probably drawn connections that aren't probably drawn connections that aren't warranted, you know. So, do you do you warranted, you know. So, do you do you warranted, you know. So, do you do you ever go back and read stuff that you've ever go back and read stuff that you've ever go back and read stuff that you've written and think, man, I don't see that written and think, man, I don't see that written and think, man, I don't see that at all or what was I thinking when I

at all or what was I thinking when I at all or what was I thinking when I when I said that? Do does that does that when I said that? Do does that does that when I said that? Do does that does that happen to you? I happen to you? I happen to you? I >> I don't think I'd say the former that I >> I don't think I'd say the former that I >> I don't think I'd say the former that I when I read something I say, I don't see when I read something I say, I don't see when I read something I say, I don't see that at all. But but definitely the that at all. But but definitely the that at all. But but definitely the latter. I do think sometimes the way I latter. I do think sometimes the way I latter. I do think sometimes the way I wrote it, what was going on when I wrote wrote it, what was going on when I wrote wrote it, what was going on when I wrote that that that cuz it doesn't make a lot of sense to me cuz it doesn't make a lot of sense to me cuz it doesn't make a lot of sense to me right now. It wasn't it wasn't written right now. It wasn't it wasn't written right now. It wasn't it wasn't written it was wasn't written very well. And you it was wasn't written very well. And you it was wasn't written very well. And you you Matt and Ben, you must have that you Matt and Ben, you must have that you Matt and Ben, you must have that same experience. When I go back to some same experience. When I go back to some same experience. When I go back to some of the things I've written a long time of the things I've written a long time of the things I've written a long time ago, I almost feel like it was a ago, I almost feel like it was a ago, I almost feel like it was a different person. different person. different person. >> Oh, right. Right. I mean, I recognize my >> Oh, right. Right. I mean, I recognize my >> Oh, right. Right. I mean, I recognize my thought, but it's almost like I'm thought, but it's almost like I'm thought, but it's almost like I'm reading someone else. And I can almost reading someone else. And I can almost reading someone else. And I can almost read I can read it objectively and read I can read it objectively and read I can read it objectively and think, "Yeah, I think that part's good think, "Yeah, I think that part's good think, "Yeah, I think that part's good and then another part." and then another part." and then another part." Yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way Yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way Yeah, I wouldn't quite say it that way today. You know, I've even noticed and today. You know, I've even noticed and today. You know, I've even noticed and you've written more than more than me you've written more than more than me you've written more than more than me and Matt and so you could probably see and Matt and so you could probably see and Matt and so you could probably see this, but it's almost as you know, if this, but it's almost as you know, if this, but it's almost as you know, if you look back on your work and your you look back on your work and your you look back on your work and your writing, you can I'm not saying you see writing, you can I'm not saying you see writing, you can I'm not saying you see a different personality, but over time a different personality, but over time a different personality, but over time your writing does develop and you use your writing does develop and you use your writing does develop and you use like different phrases or you do so, you like different phrases or you do so, you like different phrases or you do so, you know, you can kind of go back into know, you can kind of go back into know, you can kind of go back into different phases in your career and say, different phases in your career and say, different phases in your career and say, "Oh, I I had this persona at the time "Oh, I I had this persona at the time "Oh, I I had this persona at the time and I've kind of gone over here and uh and I've kind of gone over here and uh and I've kind of gone over here and uh you that's just something that I've I you that's just something that I've I you that's just something that I've I you know going into biblical studies I I you know going into biblical studies I I you know going into biblical studies I I didn't know that was that was even a didn't know that was that was even a didn't know that was that was even a thing to have different phases as an thing to have different phases as an thing to have different phases as an author.

author. author. >> Yeah. And it's been for me I've enjoyed >> Yeah. And it's been for me I've enjoyed >> Yeah. And it's been for me I've enjoyed uh I've been able to revise my Romans uh I've been able to revise my Romans uh I've been able to revise my Romans commentary my first second Peter and commentary my first second Peter and commentary my first second Peter and Jude. Maybe those are the two things Jude. Maybe those are the two things Jude. Maybe those are the two things I've revised right now. I'm revising the I've revised right now. I'm revising the I've revised right now. I'm revising the king and his beauty king and his beauty king and his beauty >> in your Pauline theology. Didn't you do >> in your Pauline theology. Didn't you do >> in your Pauline theology. Didn't you do a revision? a revision? a revision? >> That's right. I revised that. I forgot. >> That's right. I revised that. I forgot. >> That's right. I revised that. I forgot. I revised that. I revised that. I revised that. >> See you even forgot. You forgot what >> See you even forgot. You forgot what >> See you even forgot. You forgot what you've redone. you've redone. you've redone. Gota it's like you need to do it again. Gota it's like you need to do it again. Gota it's like you need to do it again. >> Yeah. Yeah. The but the kingdom is >> Yeah. Yeah. The but the kingdom is >> Yeah. Yeah. The but the kingdom is beauty. It's interesting because I wrote beauty. It's interesting because I wrote beauty. It's interesting because I wrote it in 2013 and of the So that's this is it in 2013 and of the So that's this is it in 2013 and of the So that's this is the fourth book I've revised and I'm the fourth book I've revised and I'm the fourth book I've revised and I'm revising it the least. Oh wow. Probably revising it the least. Oh wow. Probably revising it the least. Oh wow. Probably because it's a little bit more recent, because it's a little bit more recent, because it's a little bit more recent, right? right? right? Also though I have to say you know with Also though I have to say you know with Also though I have to say you know with for second Peter and Jude and Romans I for second Peter and Jude and Romans I for second Peter and Jude and Romans I had to account for had to account for had to account for 20 10 20 to 15 years of scholarship. So 20 10 20 to 15 years of scholarship. So 20 10 20 to 15 years of scholarship. So they were they were I didn't do just they were they were I didn't do just they were they were I didn't do just light revisions. I read a lot to do my light revisions. I read a lot to do my light revisions. I read a lot to do my new editions of those two works. Well, I new editions of those two works. Well, I new editions of those two works. Well, I think Tom, one of the things that stands think Tom, one of the things that stands think Tom, one of the things that stands out about your work, uh, several things out about your work, uh, several things out about your work, uh, several things I think of your clarity in terms of how I think of your clarity in terms of how I think of your clarity in terms of how how how clearly you write and, uh, how how clearly you write and, uh, how how clearly you write and, uh, another thing that, uh, stands out is another thing that, uh, stands out is another thing that, uh, stands out is your willingness to change your mind your willingness to change your mind your willingness to change your mind and, uh, your willingness to based on and, uh, your willingness to based on and, uh, your willingness to based on further study, uh, change your positions further study, uh, change your positions further study, uh, change your positions on things. And I think in particular of on things. And I think in particular of on things. And I think in particular of uh for example your position on uh uh for example your position on uh uh for example your position on uh revelation and whether it's you know pre

revelation and whether it's you know pre revelation and whether it's you know pre premillennialism or amillennialism premillennialism or amillennialism premillennialism or amillennialism you've kind of uh had some changing you've kind of uh had some changing you've kind of uh had some changing views there and and you know I know some views there and and you know I know some views there and and you know I know some people probably give you a little bit of people probably give you a little bit of people probably give you a little bit of grief about that but I actually find it grief about that but I actually find it grief about that but I actually find it enduring endearing because it shows that enduring endearing because it shows that enduring endearing because it shows that you're constantly coming back to the you're constantly coming back to the you're constantly coming back to the text and saying okay how do I account text and saying okay how do I account text and saying okay how do I account for everything that's in the text and for everything that's in the text and for everything that's in the text and give a satisfying explanation. give a satisfying explanation. give a satisfying explanation. >> Yeah. And and I just say I I I made a I >> Yeah. And and I just say I I I made a I >> Yeah. And and I just say I I I made a I don't know if it was a vow, but early on don't know if it was a vow, but early on don't know if it was a vow, but early on I said to myself, I'm not going to I said to myself, I'm not going to I said to myself, I'm not going to commit myself to defend what I've commit myself to defend what I've commit myself to defend what I've written. written. written. If I think later it's not uh not If I think later it's not uh not If I think later it's not uh not correct, I don't want to be so proud correct, I don't want to be so proud correct, I don't want to be so proud that I that I just batten down the that I that I just batten down the that I that I just batten down the hatches and say this this is right. hatches and say this this is right. hatches and say this this is right. Yeah. And and and I think it's probably Yeah. And and and I think it's probably Yeah. And and and I think it's probably a strength and a weakness. You know, a strength and a weakness. You know, a strength and a weakness. You know, every every strength's a weakness. My every every strength's a weakness. My every every strength's a weakness. My personality is such that um I'm always personality is such that um I'm always personality is such that um I'm always rethinking things. That's I think that rethinking things. That's I think that rethinking things. That's I think that can be good and I think it has some can be good and I think it has some can be good and I think it has some liabilities as well. Uh but issues like liabilities as well. Uh but issues like liabilities as well. Uh but issues like the millennium I've I've experienced the millennium I've I've experienced the millennium I've I've experienced this with Romans 7.

this with Romans 7. this with Romans 7. I think they're very very difficult I think they're very very difficult I think they're very very difficult issues and issues and issues and and and Christians I run across who are and and Christians I run across who are and and Christians I run across who are super dogmatic about that. I don't even super dogmatic about that. I don't even super dogmatic about that. I don't even get it, you know, like I mean how can get it, you know, like I mean how can get it, you know, like I mean how can you be that dogmatic? I mean, it's just you be that dogmatic? I mean, it's just you be that dogmatic? I mean, it's just not it's just not clear enough to me to not it's just not clear enough to me to not it's just not clear enough to me to have that kind of dogmatism. It so have that kind of dogmatism. It so have that kind of dogmatism. It so um most most people aren't like that, um most most people aren't like that, um most most people aren't like that, right? But every once in a while you run right? But every once in a while you run right? But every once in a while you run across someone who's like, well, I mean, across someone who's like, well, I mean, across someone who's like, well, I mean, I'm going to mention a name. He's a I'm going to mention a name. He's a I'm going to mention a name. He's a great great scholar, right? Gordon Fee, great great scholar, right? Gordon Fee, great great scholar, right? Gordon Fee, he's with the Lord now, but Gordon Fee he's with the Lord now, but Gordon Fee he's with the Lord now, but Gordon Fee on Romans 7, he's like, "Oh, it's clear on Romans 7, he's like, "Oh, it's clear on Romans 7, he's like, "Oh, it's clear it's pre-Christian." I'm like, "Really? it's pre-Christian." I'm like, "Really? it's pre-Christian." I'm like, "Really? I mean, is it is it that easy? You know, I mean, is it is it that easy? You know, I mean, is it is it that easy? You know, I I just found that that I don't think I I just found that that I don't think I I just found that that I don't think Gordon was like that on everything, but Gordon was like that on everything, but Gordon was like that on everything, but I was like, I don't how could you say I was like, I don't how could you say I was like, I don't how could you say that it's just easy kind of, you know?

that it's just easy kind of, you know? that it's just easy kind of, you know? >> So true. >> So true. >> So true. >> Yeah. It's hard, you know, it there's a >> Yeah. It's hard, you know, it there's a >> Yeah. It's hard, you know, it there's a sense in which and and I think it's I sense in which and and I think it's I sense in which and and I think it's I think this is more difficult for think this is more difficult for think this is more difficult for pastors, Tom, because when you preach pastors, Tom, because when you preach pastors, Tom, because when you preach these texts from the pulpit, these texts from the pulpit, these texts from the pulpit, you know, you can't you know, you can't you know, you can't for me this there's a there's there's a for me this there's a there's there's a for me this there's a there's there's a a bit of a rub here because you can't a bit of a rub here because you can't a bit of a rub here because you can't just go up in the pulpit and say, "Well, just go up in the pulpit and say, "Well, just go up in the pulpit and say, "Well, I kind of think this." I kind of think this." I kind of think this." You've got to say, you've got to be a You've got to say, you've got to be a You've got to say, you've got to be a little bit more confident than that when little bit more confident than that when little bit more confident than that when you proclaim God's word from the pulpit. you proclaim God's word from the pulpit. you proclaim God's word from the pulpit. That said, That said, That said, you've there's a way to there's a way to you've there's a way to there's a way to you've there's a way to there's a way to be confident but not dogmatic. And I be confident but not dogmatic. And I be confident but not dogmatic. And I think that's what we're trying to say. think that's what we're trying to say. think that's what we're trying to say. And I think that's hard for pastors when And I think that's hard for pastors when And I think that's hard for pastors when they preach these texts. they preach these texts. they preach these texts. >> Yeah. Well, I mean, an example I can >> Yeah. Well, I mean, an example I can >> Yeah. Well, I mean, an example I can think of, I don't know if you guys will think of, I don't know if you guys will think of, I don't know if you guys will agree with this illustration. I think agree with this illustration. I think agree with this illustration. I think you will, but when you come to Genesis you will, but when you come to Genesis you will, but when you come to Genesis 1, right? Our pastor preached it 1, right? Our pastor preached it 1, right? Our pastor preached it recently and he said young earth old recently and he said young earth old recently and he said young earth old earth earth earth both are possible.

both are possible. both are possible. I lean towards he leans towards young I lean towards he leans towards young I lean towards he leans towards young earth and he said but here's what this earth and he said but here's what this earth and he said but here's what this text is fundamentally about. So I think text is fundamentally about. So I think text is fundamentally about. So I think he indicated to the congregation there's he indicated to the congregation there's he indicated to the congregation there's a debate. He didn't get into the weeds a debate. He didn't get into the weeds a debate. He didn't get into the weeds of the debate. He preached he preached of the debate. He preached he preached of the debate. He preached he preached God created the world. Mhm. God created the world. Mhm. God created the world. Mhm. >> But he also, I think, indicated to us, >> But he also, I think, indicated to us, >> But he also, I think, indicated to us, well, okay, there's discussion and well, okay, there's discussion and well, okay, there's discussion and debate on this issue and and and you and debate on this issue and and and you and debate on this issue and and and you and as a congregation, I think he gave as a congregation, I think he gave as a congregation, I think he gave people freedom. You can people freedom. You can people freedom. You can >> you you can follow your own reading on >> you you can follow your own reading on >> you you can follow your own reading on that. So, that. So, that. So, so yeah, when we when we come to certain so yeah, when we when we come to certain so yeah, when we when we come to certain texts, I think that's exactly right. We texts, I think that's exactly right. We texts, I think that's exactly right. We need to preach the word confidently and need to preach the word confidently and need to preach the word confidently and declare God's word. And we don't want to declare God's word. And we don't want to declare God's word. And we don't want to do a lot of I'm not sure, do a lot of I'm not sure, do a lot of I'm not sure, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> I don't I don't think that's helpful, >> I don't I don't think that's helpful, >> I don't I don't think that's helpful, >> but it's not. >> but it's not. >> but it's not. >> But there are places to say that, you >> But there are places to say that, you >> But there are places to say that, you know, there are places to say there's a know, there are places to say there's a know, there are places to say there's a lot of debate. And I think that's one lot of debate. And I think that's one lot of debate. And I think that's one way to say it. There's a lot of debate.

way to say it. There's a lot of debate. way to say it. There's a lot of debate. Here's my take on it. Here I go. You Here's my take on it. Here I go. You Here's my take on it. Here I go. You know, yeah. You know, it's hard because know, yeah. You know, it's hard because know, yeah. You know, it's hard because there's no there there's a sense in there's no there there's a sense in there's no there there's a sense in which there are no two texts that are which there are no two texts that are which there are no two texts that are exactly the same. And these texts, exactly the same. And these texts, exactly the same. And these texts, whether it's a Romans 7 or Revelation whether it's a Romans 7 or Revelation whether it's a Romans 7 or Revelation 20, 20, 20, the text itself is unclear. And the the text itself is unclear. And the the text itself is unclear. And the pastor needs to have the sense, he needs pastor needs to have the sense, he needs pastor needs to have the sense, he needs to have a sense where it's, hey, this is to have a sense where it's, hey, this is to have a sense where it's, hey, this is a this is a tough passage. Objectively, a this is a tough passage. Objectively, a this is a tough passage. Objectively, this is a tough passage and has got to this is a tough passage and has got to this is a tough passage and has got to have some humility when he goes up and have some humility when he goes up and have some humility when he goes up and preaches that text. preaches that text. preaches that text. >> Yeah. Yeah. So Tom, you uh you have >> Yeah. Yeah. So Tom, you uh you have >> Yeah. Yeah. So Tom, you uh you have basically your life and ministry has basically your life and ministry has basically your life and ministry has spanned what what I refer to uh with my spanned what what I refer to uh with my spanned what what I refer to uh with my students as sort of the golden age of students as sort of the golden age of students as sort of the golden age of biblical theology that we are now living biblical theology that we are now living biblical theology that we are now living at a time where there's more and more uh at a time where there's more and more uh at a time where there's more and more uh probably never been more biblical probably never been more biblical probably never been more biblical theology uh work being produced whether theology uh work being produced whether theology uh work being produced whether it's books, whether it's articles, it's books, whether it's articles, it's books, whether it's articles, whether it's podcasts, you name it. whether it's podcasts, you name it. whether it's podcasts, you name it. there's just been an explosion there's just been an explosion there's just been an explosion uh of resources available for uh of resources available for uh of resources available for understanding and even learning how to understanding and even learning how to understanding and even learning how to practice biblical theology. And so uh practice biblical theology. And so uh practice biblical theology. And so uh from your perspective what have been from your perspective what have been from your perspective what have been some of the key uh maybe who have been some of the key uh maybe who have been some of the key uh maybe who have been some of the key contributors or are some of the key contributors or are some of the key contributors or are there specific as you look at that kind there specific as you look at that kind there specific as you look at that kind of span of history uh within the last of span of history uh within the last of span of history uh within the last say probably say probably say probably 30 plus years 30 to 40 years when 30 plus years 30 to 40 years when 30 plus years 30 to 40 years when there's been that growth and explosion there's been that growth and explosion there's been that growth and explosion of biblical theology. Are there key

of biblical theology. Are there key of biblical theology. Are there key individuals or even key works that come individuals or even key works that come individuals or even key works that come to mind that you think this helped to mind that you think this helped to mind that you think this helped really accelerate uh the advancement of really accelerate uh the advancement of really accelerate uh the advancement of biblical theology getting on more and biblical theology getting on more and biblical theology getting on more and more people's radar uh and being used more people's radar uh and being used more people's radar uh and being used both by uh people in the in the pews as both by uh people in the in the pews as both by uh people in the in the pews as well as uh in the pulpit? well as uh in the pulpit? well as uh in the pulpit? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's a great >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's a great >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean that's that's a great question. There's I mean we could go a question. There's I mean we could go a question. There's I mean we could go a number of ways. I mean I think in number of ways. I mean I think in number of ways. I mean I think in evangelical circles certainly Don Carson evangelical circles certainly Don Carson evangelical circles certainly Don Carson uh had has had a tremendous influence in uh had has had a tremendous influence in uh had has had a tremendous influence in uh so many different venues right both uh so many different venues right both uh so many different venues right both speaking and writing and and in all speaking and writing and and in all speaking and writing and and in all kinds of sectors I think um Ben's uh kinds of sectors I think um Ben's uh kinds of sectors I think um Ben's uh supervisor Greg Beiel I mean Greg has supervisor Greg Beiel I mean Greg has supervisor Greg Beiel I mean Greg has had so many wonderful had so many wonderful had so many wonderful uh contributions uh contributions uh contributions uh over the years. Um I mean I think uh over the years. Um I mean I think uh over the years. Um I mean I think somebody like NT Wright somebody like NT Wright somebody like NT Wright clearly I don't agree with Tom on clearly I don't agree with Tom on clearly I don't agree with Tom on everything but I think I think Wright's everything but I think I think Wright's everything but I think I think Wright's uh works are very stimulating and and uh works are very stimulating and and uh works are very stimulating and and and to help us think even if we disagree and to help us think even if we disagree and to help us think even if we disagree with them how to how to put uh the Bible with them how to how to put uh the Bible with them how to how to put uh the Bible together together together outside of evangelical circles. I mean outside of evangelical circles. I mean outside of evangelical circles. I mean clearly Brever Child with his canonical clearly Brever Child with his canonical clearly Brever Child with his canonical uh writings. I mean they're they they uh writings. I mean they're they they uh writings. I mean they're they they are very stimulating. I mean a person are very stimulating. I mean a person are very stimulating. I mean a person probably people don't know as well but I

probably people don't know as well but I probably people don't know as well but I found very fascinating found very fascinating found very fascinating uh Utnella who's translated you know uh Utnella who's translated you know uh Utnella who's translated you know both Pauline and New Testament theology. both Pauline and New Testament theology. both Pauline and New Testament theology. I know he's not talked about as much but I know he's not talked about as much but I know he's not talked about as much but I was very struck reading Schnella. Um, I was very struck reading Schnella. Um, I was very struck reading Schnella. Um, obviously I don't agree with him on obviously I don't agree with him on obviously I don't agree with him on everything, but how uh textually uh uh everything, but how uh textually uh uh everything, but how uh textually uh uh grounded he is so often and very very grounded he is so often and very very grounded he is so often and very very stimulating. Of course, we can think of stimulating. Of course, we can think of stimulating. Of course, we can think of uh Frank Theman's New Testament uh Frank Theman's New Testament uh Frank Theman's New Testament theology. I think it's a very helpful theology. I think it's a very helpful theology. I think it's a very helpful work. I heard Marshall. I mean, there work. I heard Marshall. I mean, there work. I heard Marshall. I mean, there have been have been have been >> Stomacher Peter Stomacher. >> Stomacher Peter Stomacher. >> Stomacher Peter Stomacher. >> Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm glad you mentioned >> Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm glad you mentioned >> Yes. Yes. Oh, I'm glad you mentioned that. Stoolmacher. Yes. Um, I think that that. Stoolmacher. Yes. Um, I think that that. Stoolmacher. Yes. Um, I think that is a very significant New Testament is a very significant New Testament is a very significant New Testament theology. Yeah, I used it for one of my theology. Yeah, I used it for one of my theology. Yeah, I used it for one of my doctoral seminars. A whole thing we did doctoral seminars. A whole thing we did doctoral seminars. A whole thing we did on Stillmocker's book. Really good. on Stillmocker's book. Really good. on Stillmocker's book. Really good. Yeah, I'd forgotten to mention that Yeah, I'd forgotten to mention that Yeah, I'd forgotten to mention that book, but that is another book, but that is another book, but that is another >> and it's especially in some ways >> and it's especially in some ways >> and it's especially in some ways surprising given his German context surprising given his German context surprising given his German context where the academy the the sort of the where the academy the the sort of the where the academy the the sort of the the things that he's experiencing in his the things that he's experiencing in his the things that he's experiencing in his immediate context that that his approach immediate context that that his approach immediate context that that his approach is not necessarily in step with his is not necessarily in step with his is not necessarily in step with his immediate kind of cultural context there immediate kind of cultural context there immediate kind of cultural context there in the German academy. that kind of uh in the German academy. that kind of uh in the German academy. that kind of uh more holistic thinking doesn't tend to more holistic thinking doesn't tend to more holistic thinking doesn't tend to be as common in sort of German critical be as common in sort of German critical be as common in sort of German critical scholarship. And so he really stands out scholarship. And so he really stands out scholarship. And so he really stands out in that light especially I think too.

in that light especially I think too. in that light especially I think too. Well, especially when you think I mean Well, especially when you think I mean Well, especially when you think I mean Stomacher we you could put it this way, Stomacher we you could put it this way, Stomacher we you could put it this way, right? He's Rudolph Bulman's theological right? He's Rudolph Bulman's theological right? He's Rudolph Bulman's theological grandson. That's grandson. That's grandson. That's >> right. You know, the line goes from >> right. You know, the line goes from >> right. You know, the line goes from Bulmont to Quasean to Stomacher and Bulmont to Quasean to Stomacher and Bulmont to Quasean to Stomacher and Stomarker Stummarker's Stomarker Stummarker's Stomarker Stummarker's you know believe there's a case for you know believe there's a case for you know believe there's a case for transcendence from for miracles. Should transcendence from for miracles. Should transcendence from for miracles. Should I can I can I tell you really quickly a I can I can I tell you really quickly a I can I can I tell you really quickly a story I'd love? Sure. When I was at story I'd love? Sure. When I was at story I'd love? Sure. When I was at Fuller, I took a seminar with Richard Fuller, I took a seminar with Richard Fuller, I took a seminar with Richard Mueller. You know that name in church Mueller. You know that name in church Mueller. You know that name in church history. history. history. >> And Richard, Richard's brilliant. >> And Richard, Richard's brilliant. >> And Richard, Richard's brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. And one day he Absolutely brilliant. And one day he Absolutely brilliant. And one day he said to me as a young student, you know said to me as a young student, you know said to me as a young student, you know what's wrong with Boltman? what's wrong with Boltman? what's wrong with Boltman? And I was like, well, Rich, this is And I was like, well, Rich, this is And I was like, well, Rich, this is Richard Mueller. I What do I say to Richard Mueller. I What do I say to Richard Mueller. I What do I say to Richard Mueller? I I don't know. So, I Richard Mueller? I I don't know. So, I Richard Mueller? I I don't know. So, I just waited. And then you know what he just waited. And then you know what he just waited. And then you know what he said to me? I'd loved it. He goes, he said to me? I'd loved it. He goes, he said to me? I'd loved it. He goes, he doesn't believe in miracles. doesn't believe in miracles. doesn't believe in miracles. I was expecting something some so much I was expecting something some so much I was expecting something some so much more academic. Right.

more academic. Right. more academic. Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> But I thought that was fabulous. >> But I thought that was fabulous. >> But I thought that was fabulous. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But but Peter Stomacher believes in >> But but Peter Stomacher believes in >> But but Peter Stomacher believes in miracles, you know. miracles, you know. miracles, you know. >> You know, I think I think and and this >> You know, I think I think and and this >> You know, I think I think and and this is this is really the lesson here and is this is really the lesson here and is this is really the lesson here and it's and I think Stomacher is a great it's and I think Stomacher is a great it's and I think Stomacher is a great example because he's so textual and example because he's so textual and example because he's so textual and that's where biblical theology is taking that's where biblical theology is taking that's where biblical theology is taking us whether it's a pastor or a theologian us whether it's a pastor or a theologian us whether it's a pastor or a theologian or a scholar, whatever. or a scholar, whatever. or a scholar, whatever. There's something about when you stay There's something about when you stay There's something about when you stay close to the text, biblical theology is close to the text, biblical theology is close to the text, biblical theology is just going to happen. It's just going to just going to happen. It's just going to just going to happen. It's just going to it's just going to go there. it's just going to go there. it's just going to go there. >> Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. >> Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. >> Yeah, I I think that's exactly right. And in fact, my own history, I almost And in fact, my own history, I almost And in fact, my own history, I almost went into systematics because I really went into systematics because I really went into systematics because I really loved systematics, loved systematics, loved systematics, >> but I chose New Testament because >> but I chose New Testament because >> but I chose New Testament because >> I wanted to stay closer to the text. And >> I wanted to stay closer to the text. And >> I wanted to stay closer to the text. And I think systematics is is is absolutely I think systematics is is is absolutely I think systematics is is is absolutely necessary, but I wanted to work more necessary, but I wanted to work more necessary, but I wanted to work more closely with the biblical text. closely with the biblical text. closely with the biblical text. >> Yeah, absolutely. I uh a quick story on >> Yeah, absolutely. I uh a quick story on >> Yeah, absolutely. I uh a quick story on my end. So when I was looking at my end. So when I was looking at my end. So when I was looking at seminaries, I I visited Trinity where I seminaries, I I visited Trinity where I seminaries, I I visited Trinity where I ended up going and uh I met with Wayne ended up going and uh I met with Wayne ended up going and uh I met with Wayne Grudum and so I was probably about a Grudum and so I was probably about a Grudum and so I was probably about a year out from enrolling at Trinity and I year out from enrolling at Trinity and I year out from enrolling at Trinity and I said to him, "What's the best way I can said to him, "What's the best way I can said to him, "What's the best way I can prepare for seminary?" thinking I'm prepare for seminary?" thinking I'm prepare for seminary?" thinking I'm probably going to go down the road of of probably going to go down the road of of probably going to go down the road of of going into systematics.

going into systematics. going into systematics. And and he said to me, "The best thing And and he said to me, "The best thing And and he said to me, "The best thing you can do is know your Bible inside and you can do is know your Bible inside and you can do is know your Bible inside and out and and just immerse yourself in out and and just immerse yourself in out and and just immerse yourself in reading the text over and over again." reading the text over and over again." reading the text over and over again." And I I just loved that response cuz I'm And I I just loved that response cuz I'm And I I just loved that response cuz I'm thinking, "Oh, he's going to tell me to thinking, "Oh, he's going to tell me to thinking, "Oh, he's going to tell me to read, you know, pick various, you know, read, you know, pick various, you know, read, you know, pick various, you know, systematicians." He say, "Well, you systematicians." He say, "Well, you systematicians." He say, "Well, you should probably read these theologies should probably read these theologies should probably read these theologies and this person is doing really clever and this person is doing really clever and this person is doing really clever work or creative work." And he's like, work or creative work." And he's like, work or creative work." And he's like, "Read your Bible." No, like seriously, "Read your Bible." No, like seriously, "Read your Bible." No, like seriously, like read your Bible like really like read your Bible like really like read your Bible like really carefully and thoughtfully. And that carefully and thoughtfully. And that carefully and thoughtfully. And that will set you up for whether you go into will set you up for whether you go into will set you up for whether you go into systematics or whether you go another systematics or whether you go another systematics or whether you go another route. Just read and immerse yourself in route. Just read and immerse yourself in route. Just read and immerse yourself in the Bible. the Bible. the Bible. >> Yeah, that's fantastic. >> Yeah, that's fantastic. >> Yeah, that's fantastic. >> You know, here's here's my story. This >> You know, here's here's my story. This >> You know, here's here's my story. This is not I don't agree with this, but it's is not I don't agree with this, but it's is not I don't agree with this, but it's very interesting. I'm not going to tell very interesting. I'm not going to tell very interesting. I'm not going to tell you who told me this. You'll see why. you who told me this. You'll see why. you who told me this. You'll see why. So, I went to a professor. I was doing So, I went to a professor. I was doing So, I went to a professor. I was doing my MA at Weaten and I had the same my MA at Weaten and I had the same my MA at Weaten and I had the same question. So I went to this professor question. So I went to this professor question. So I went to this professor and I said, "I'm thinking about doing and I said, "I'm thinking about doing and I said, "I'm thinking about doing doctoral work." I mean, I'm what, like doctoral work." I mean, I'm what, like doctoral work." I mean, I'm what, like 22 years old, 23. I was like, "I'm 22 years old, 23. I was like, "I'm 22 years old, 23. I was like, "I'm thinking about doing doctoral work. What thinking about doing doctoral work. What thinking about doing doctoral work. What bit of advice should I receive? What bit of advice should I receive? What bit of advice should I receive? What what would you give me?" And he said, what would you give me?" And he said, what would you give me?" And he said, "Read the Mishna."

"Read the Mishna." "Read the Mishna." And I was like, And I was like, And I was like, >> "Wow, >> "Wow, >> "Wow, >> okay." I was like, "Okay." So I so I got >> okay." I was like, "Okay." So I so I got >> okay." I was like, "Okay." So I so I got a so I got a copy of the Misha which is a so I got a copy of the Misha which is a so I got a copy of the Misha which is actually I still have it. It's right actually I still have it. It's right actually I still have it. It's right back there and I started reading I back there and I started reading I back there and I started reading I didn't read it through. It's not it's I didn't read it through. It's not it's I didn't read it through. It's not it's I didn't realize that it was so big when I didn't realize that it was so big when I didn't realize that it was so big when I was 23 years old. I'm thinking you know was 23 years old. I'm thinking you know was 23 years old. I'm thinking you know a couple trackct dates or I mean this a couple trackct dates or I mean this a couple trackct dates or I mean this it's huge. I didn't realize something. it's huge. I didn't realize something. it's huge. I didn't realize something. >> 600 pages. >> 600 pages. >> 600 pages. >> It's huge. It's huge. And I only made it >> It's huge. It's huge. And I only made it >> It's huge. It's huge. And I only made it through like a 100 pages or whatever. through like a 100 pages or whatever. through like a 100 pages or whatever. But I if my students that or I have But I if my students that or I have But I if my students that or I have students that come and ask me I say I students that come and ask me I say I students that come and ask me I say I always say it's pretty much always the always say it's pretty much always the always say it's pretty much always the Old Testament Old Testament Old Testament you know I mean it's the same thing but you know I mean it's the same thing but you know I mean it's the same thing but it really is I would never I really it really is I would never I really it really is I would never I really would never say read the Talmud, read would never say read the Talmud, read would never say read the Talmud, read the Mishna, get familiar with this the Mishna, get familiar with this the Mishna, get familiar with this secondary. I really I you know it really secondary. I really I you know it really secondary. I really I you know it really does come back to you got to know your does come back to you got to know your does come back to you got to know your Bible. You have to know this what it's Bible. You have to know this what it's Bible. You have to know this what it's what it's doing what it is. Uh-huh. what it's doing what it is. Uh-huh. what it's doing what it is. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. >> Well, Tom, we wanted to ask uh a little >> Well, Tom, we wanted to ask uh a little >> Well, Tom, we wanted to ask uh a little bit I I I know um you you you probably bit I I I know um you you you probably bit I I I know um you you you probably don't uh claim the gift of prophecy, but don't uh claim the gift of prophecy, but don't uh claim the gift of prophecy, but uh based on your best judgment, where do uh based on your best judgment, where do uh based on your best judgment, where do you see kind of the future of biblical you see kind of the future of biblical you see kind of the future of biblical theology going? Or maybe what are some theology going? Or maybe what are some theology going? Or maybe what are some trends you're seeing or areas where you trends you're seeing or areas where you trends you're seeing or areas where you think this kind of thing needs more work think this kind of thing needs more work think this kind of thing needs more work or more exploration as you as you look or more exploration as you as you look or more exploration as you as you look at the field?

at the field? at the field? >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to answer this a >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to answer this a >> Yeah. Well, I'm going to answer this a little different way, but you you can little different way, but you you can little different way, but you you can come back to me. So, what I what I see come back to me. So, what I what I see come back to me. So, what I what I see happening and I don't think it's a bad happening and I don't think it's a bad happening and I don't think it's a bad thing thing thing and maybe it's just in my circles. So, and maybe it's just in my circles. So, and maybe it's just in my circles. So, there's a there's a great emphasis today there's a there's a great emphasis today there's a there's a great emphasis today on retrieval. So, I think what I see on retrieval. So, I think what I see on retrieval. So, I think what I see happening in our circles is I think the happening in our circles is I think the happening in our circles is I think the interest is shifting at least a bit to interest is shifting at least a bit to interest is shifting at least a bit to systematics, which I I'm not saying systematics, which I I'm not saying systematics, which I I'm not saying that's bad. I mean I think the retrieval that's bad. I mean I think the retrieval that's bad. I mean I think the retrieval movement has many good things in it and movement has many good things in it and movement has many good things in it and um I actually think systematics is the um I actually think systematics is the um I actually think systematics is the sum bonum right that biblical theology sum bonum right that biblical theology sum bonum right that biblical theology feeds in the systematics. I think we all feeds in the systematics. I think we all feeds in the systematics. I think we all live off our systematics as I said I had live off our systematics as I said I had live off our systematics as I said I had an interest in systematics. an interest in systematics. an interest in systematics. So I think the danger is So I think the danger is So I think the danger is the way I see it. So it's not really a the way I see it. So it's not really a the way I see it. So it's not really a prophecy. prophecy. prophecy. When when you have a shift like that, When when you have a shift like that, When when you have a shift like that, the the danger is we could lose what the the danger is we could lose what the the danger is we could lose what we're doing, right? We So that we're doing, right? We So that we're doing, right? We So that systematic systematic systematic emphasis, that's good. We always we emphasis, that's good. We always we emphasis, that's good. We always we always want to make sure we're we're always want to make sure we're we're always want to make sure we're we're considering the tradition and the considering the tradition and the considering the tradition and the history. Sometimes we as Protestants can history. Sometimes we as Protestants can history. Sometimes we as Protestants can be very much like it's just me and my be very much like it's just me and my be very much like it's just me and my Bible and who cares what anybody said Bible and who cares what anybody said Bible and who cares what anybody said for the first 1900 years. Well, that's for the first 1900 years. Well, that's for the first 1900 years. Well, that's very naive and not not good, right? So, very naive and not not good, right? So, very naive and not not good, right? So, we learn I mean I read all four volumes we learn I mean I read all four volumes we learn I mean I read all four volumes of Bob in I mean I learned a ton from of Bob in I mean I learned a ton from of Bob in I mean I learned a ton from Bob ink. I mean it's amazing stuff. So

Bob ink. I mean it's amazing stuff. So Bob ink. I mean it's amazing stuff. So So my my concern and and maybe it won't So my my concern and and maybe it won't So my my concern and and maybe it won't happen. My concern is that with the happen. My concern is that with the happen. My concern is that with the great at least in my circles the shift great at least in my circles the shift great at least in my circles the shift towards sort of retrieval and towards sort of retrieval and towards sort of retrieval and systematics systematics systematics that people may view what biblical that people may view what biblical that people may view what biblical theology is kind of a fad theology is kind of a fad theology is kind of a fad >> and uh maybe it's not happening where >> and uh maybe it's not happening where >> and uh maybe it's not happening where you guys are but it'd be like oh yeah we you guys are but it'd be like oh yeah we you guys are but it'd be like oh yeah we went through that stage but now that was went through that stage but now that was went through that stage but now that was a very preliminary stage we're leaving a very preliminary stage we're leaving a very preliminary stage we're leaving that behind now we're going to do that behind now we're going to do that behind now we're going to do systematics but but it's always it's got systematics but but it's always it's got systematics but but it's always it's got to be both right we we've got to always to be both right we we've got to always to be both right we we've got to always continue to work at um reading the Bible continue to work at um reading the Bible continue to work at um reading the Bible in terms of its own storyline. in terms of its own storyline. in terms of its own storyline. So I I don't have predictions in terms So I I don't have predictions in terms So I I don't have predictions in terms of what will be written in the future, of what will be written in the future, of what will be written in the future, but my concern is that we don't leave but my concern is that we don't leave but my concern is that we don't leave biblical theology behind in in at least biblical theology behind in in at least biblical theology behind in in at least this little shift I see happening. Is this little shift I see happening. Is this little shift I see happening. Is this with incoming? You think is this this with incoming? You think is this this with incoming? You think is this with incoming students to Southern or with incoming students to Southern or with incoming students to Southern or just more broadly than Southern?

just more broadly than Southern? just more broadly than Southern? >> Yeah, more broadly than Southern I'd >> Yeah, more broadly than Southern I'd >> Yeah, more broadly than Southern I'd say. say. say. >> Okay. Yeah, I think uh you know if you >> Okay. Yeah, I think uh you know if you >> Okay. Yeah, I think uh you know if you just what's happening at a number of our just what's happening at a number of our just what's happening at a number of our seminaries and the in the retrieval seminaries and the in the retrieval seminaries and the in the retrieval movement is some of our students it's movement is some of our students it's movement is some of our students it's very popular and I think it's good like very popular and I think it's good like very popular and I think it's good like as I said you know a return to the as I said you know a return to the as I said you know a return to the church fathers church fathers church fathers let's let's learn from them let's let's learn from them let's let's learn from them all all helpful but they're but they're all all helpful but they're but they're all all helpful but they're but they're very biblical theological they're very very biblical theological they're very very biblical theological they're very you know doing what we're doing um I you know doing what we're doing um I you know doing what we're doing um I mean though event, in other words, if mean though event, in other words, if mean though event, in other words, if you read them, if you want to retrieve you read them, if you want to retrieve you read them, if you want to retrieve them, you're going to eventually them, you're going to eventually them, you're going to eventually retrieve biblical theology. retrieve biblical theology. retrieve biblical theology. >> You're going to, you see, you're going >> You're going to, you see, you're going >> You're going to, you see, you're going to come full circle. to come full circle. to come full circle. >> Exactly. And if you read, right, an >> Exactly. And if you read, right, an >> Exactly. And if you read, right, an Irenaeus and a Justin Martyr, now we may Irenaeus and a Justin Martyr, now we may Irenaeus and a Justin Martyr, now we may not agree with every move they make, not agree with every move they make, not agree with every move they make, >> but clearly I mean, I reads the Bible >> but clearly I mean, I reads the Bible >> but clearly I mean, I reads the Bible very covenantally, very covenantally, very covenantally, >> and Justin Martyr I I would say he reads >> and Justin Martyr I I would say he reads >> and Justin Martyr I I would say he reads the Bible very christoologgically, the Bible very christoologgically, the Bible very christoologgically, right? So that's th those are all ways right? So that's th those are all ways right? So that's th those are all ways of doing uh biblical theology. So of doing uh biblical theology. So of doing uh biblical theology. So hopefully yeah that's that's preserved hopefully yeah that's that's preserved hopefully yeah that's that's preserved uh in in in coming years. We always uh in in in coming years. We always uh in in in coming years. We always wanted to be doing both, right? I mean I wanted to be doing both, right? I mean I wanted to be doing both, right? I mean I was raised as a Catholic and I so I I I was raised as a Catholic and I so I I I was raised as a Catholic and I so I I I had a native appreciation for the had a native appreciation for the had a native appreciation for the history of the church just being raised history of the church just being raised history of the church just being raised that way.

that way. that way. um which right I'm a Baptist and some um which right I'm a Baptist and some um which right I'm a Baptist and some Baptist circles Baptist circles Baptist circles you know don't have that it it can be you know don't have that it it can be you know don't have that it it can be very very you know almost weird almost very very you know almost weird almost very very you know almost weird almost cultic right cultic right cultic right >> like we don't care what anybody said in >> like we don't care what anybody said in >> like we don't care what anybody said in the history of the church so of course the history of the church so of course the history of the church so of course we don't want to go down that path we don't want to go down that path we don't want to go down that path >> but we still need to be rooted in in the >> but we still need to be rooted in in the >> but we still need to be rooted in in the in the biblical text yeah and I think uh in the biblical text yeah and I think uh in the biblical text yeah and I think uh you know one of those one of the factors you know one of those one of the factors you know one of those one of the factors that plays into that is I I think often that plays into that is I I think often that plays into that is I I think often times people some some people's exposure times people some some people's exposure times people some some people's exposure to to the church fathers is only the to to the church fathers is only the to to the church fathers is only the stuff that sounds really weird, right? stuff that sounds really weird, right? stuff that sounds really weird, right? You know, and so people pull out these You know, and so people pull out these You know, and so people pull out these like seemingly weird interpretations. like seemingly weird interpretations. like seemingly weird interpretations. Then you're like, "Well, gosh, why would Then you're like, "Well, gosh, why would Then you're like, "Well, gosh, why would we want to go back and and and look at we want to go back and and and look at we want to go back and and and look at that?" Because, man, they're they're that?" Because, man, they're they're that?" Because, man, they're they're they're just doing crazy things with the they're just doing crazy things with the they're just doing crazy things with the biblical text. when in reality, yes, biblical text. when in reality, yes, biblical text. when in reality, yes, there's there's certainly some of that there's there's certainly some of that there's there's certainly some of that in in the fathers where you look at in in the fathers where you look at in in the fathers where you look at their, you know, their interpretations their, you know, their interpretations their, you know, their interpretations and you go, "Yeah, not not going to and you go, "Yeah, not not going to and you go, "Yeah, not not going to follow that one." But one of the things follow that one." But one of the things follow that one." But one of the things that distinguishes them, which is part that distinguishes them, which is part that distinguishes them, which is part of what's consistent with biblical of what's consistent with biblical of what's consistent with biblical theology, is they were whole Bible theology, is they were whole Bible theology, is they were whole Bible Christians, and they wanted to Christians, and they wanted to Christians, and they wanted to understand how their Bible fit together.

understand how their Bible fit together. understand how their Bible fit together. And so we might not always agree with And so we might not always agree with And so we might not always agree with the ways they attempted to tie texts the ways they attempted to tie texts the ways they attempted to tie texts together or pieces together, but they together or pieces together, but they together or pieces together, but they shared that same fundamental uh shared that same fundamental uh shared that same fundamental uh conviction that the whole Bible points conviction that the whole Bible points conviction that the whole Bible points forward to Christ and is a is a gospel forward to Christ and is a is a gospel forward to Christ and is a is a gospel uh you know saturated text if you just uh you know saturated text if you just uh you know saturated text if you just know what to look for and how to look know what to look for and how to look know what to look for and how to look for it. And that's something that if if for it. And that's something that if if for it. And that's something that if if retrieval is going to focus on those retrieval is going to focus on those retrieval is going to focus on those kinds of things, then biblical theology kinds of things, then biblical theology kinds of things, then biblical theology and retrieval are going to go hand in and retrieval are going to go hand in and retrieval are going to go hand in hand and we're going to say, "Yeah, this hand and we're going to say, "Yeah, this hand and we're going to say, "Yeah, this is great." But uh yeah, I I I see some is great." But uh yeah, I I I see some is great." But uh yeah, I I I see some of the same things you mentioned, Tom, of the same things you mentioned, Tom, of the same things you mentioned, Tom, in terms of those potential uh dangers. in terms of those potential uh dangers. in terms of those potential uh dangers. >> Yeah. And and just a quick comment that >> Yeah. And and just a quick comment that >> Yeah. And and just a quick comment that that was my experience. My experience is that was my experience. My experience is that was my experience. My experience is I took hermeneutics and maybe it was I took hermeneutics and maybe it was I took hermeneutics and maybe it was where I was. I was 22 years old. But I I where I was. I was 22 years old. But I I where I was. I was 22 years old. But I I sort of gained from the class, the sort of gained from the class, the sort of gained from the class, the church fathers are terrible interpreters church fathers are terrible interpreters church fathers are terrible interpreters of the Bible.

of the Bible. of the Bible. And then when I took this course with And then when I took this course with And then when I took this course with Richard Mueller and I said I said to Richard Mueller and I said I said to Richard Mueller and I said I said to Richard, I'd like to read a lot of the Richard, I'd like to read a lot of the Richard, I'd like to read a lot of the primary text. I just haven't had time to primary text. I just haven't had time to primary text. I just haven't had time to do that. And I did. And I remember do that. And I did. And I remember do that. And I did. And I remember saying to him, I am so struck by the saying to him, I am so struck by the saying to him, I am so struck by the fact that yeah, we basically this is fact that yeah, we basically this is fact that yeah, we basically this is what I believe the you know there. Yeah, what I believe the you know there. Yeah, what I believe the you know there. Yeah, here or there. I wouldn't like the way here or there. I wouldn't like the way here or there. I wouldn't like the way they got there, but I Yeah, it just it they got there, but I Yeah, it just it they got there, but I Yeah, it just it just changed my mind about what they just changed my mind about what they just changed my mind about what they were fundamentally doing. I I saw Yeah, were fundamentally doing. I I saw Yeah, were fundamentally doing. I I saw Yeah, the the hermeneutics books would kind of the the hermeneutics books would kind of the the hermeneutics books would kind of cherrypick bad examples cherrypick bad examples cherrypick bad examples >> and then I thought, oh yeah, they really >> and then I thought, oh yeah, they really >> and then I thought, oh yeah, they really But then when you read them, you But then when you read them, you But then when you read them, you realize, oh, there's no this is this the realize, oh, there's no this is this the realize, oh, there's no this is this the this is the same faith I hold. Right. So this is the same faith I hold. Right. So this is the same faith I hold. Right. So Tom, what part of the audience that uh Tom, what part of the audience that uh Tom, what part of the audience that uh that we envision for for the podcast that we envision for for the podcast that we envision for for the podcast here are are maybe some people who are here are are maybe some people who are here are are maybe some people who are kind of new to biblical theology or they kind of new to biblical theology or they kind of new to biblical theology or they have an interest in reading their Bibles have an interest in reading their Bibles have an interest in reading their Bibles uh as a whole Bible Christian and you uh as a whole Bible Christian and you uh as a whole Bible Christian and you know they're not the seminary student.

know they're not the seminary student. know they're not the seminary student. They're not uh like Ben and I like to They're not uh like Ben and I like to They're not uh like Ben and I like to refer to affectionately the the sort of refer to affectionately the the sort of refer to affectionately the the sort of the biblical theology nerds who can't the biblical theology nerds who can't the biblical theology nerds who can't get enough, but they they want to grow get enough, but they they want to grow get enough, but they they want to grow in their ability to read the Bible in their ability to read the Bible in their ability to read the Bible holistically and want to grow in using holistically and want to grow in using holistically and want to grow in using some of the tools of biblical theology some of the tools of biblical theology some of the tools of biblical theology to do that. And so, uh I know you you to do that. And so, uh I know you you to do that. And so, uh I know you you are not just a scholar, but you are very are not just a scholar, but you are very are not just a scholar, but you are very much involved in the local church. You much involved in the local church. You much involved in the local church. You preach, you serve, I believe you serve preach, you serve, I believe you serve preach, you serve, I believe you serve as an elder still. Is that correct? as an elder still. Is that correct? as an elder still. Is that correct? >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yeah. So, when it comes to helping the >> Yeah. So, when it comes to helping the >> Yeah. So, when it comes to helping the sort of the the average person in the sort of the the average person in the sort of the the average person in the pew uh learn to read their Bible more pew uh learn to read their Bible more pew uh learn to read their Bible more holistically or even use some of the uh holistically or even use some of the uh holistically or even use some of the uh the tools of biblical theology. Uh are the tools of biblical theology. Uh are the tools of biblical theology. Uh are there specific things that you point there specific things that you point there specific things that you point them to, maybe resources or even just a them to, maybe resources or even just a them to, maybe resources or even just a few tips that you might have as starting few tips that you might have as starting few tips that you might have as starting points for for for people like that? points for for for people like that? points for for for people like that? >> Yeah. Well, I I think it I think it is >> Yeah. Well, I I think it I think it is >> Yeah. Well, I I think it I think it is helpful helpful helpful uh to to read. I mean, there's so much uh to to read. I mean, there's so much uh to to read. I mean, there's so much available now, like what do I recommend?

available now, like what do I recommend? available now, like what do I recommend? But there's I think there's a lot of But there's I think there's a lot of But there's I think there's a lot of good introductory good introductory good introductory resources. resources. resources. Um you know, something simpler at the Um you know, something simpler at the Um you know, something simpler at the beginning in terms of how to put the beginning in terms of how to put the beginning in terms of how to put the whole Bible together. I mean, what I whole Bible together. I mean, what I whole Bible together. I mean, what I mean, maybe you guys have something in mean, maybe you guys have something in mean, maybe you guys have something in mind. I mean, what should I choose? you mind. I mean, what should I choose? you mind. I mean, what should I choose? you know, there's so much so much that's know, there's so much so much that's know, there's so much so much that's written, but I think there's a lot written, but I think there's a lot written, but I think there's a lot that's written that's available for uh a that's written that's available for uh a that's written that's available for uh a beginning student uh or or lay person beginning student uh or or lay person beginning student uh or or lay person out there today, which is great. There's out there today, which is great. There's out there today, which is great. There's the more advanced things, but there's the more advanced things, but there's the more advanced things, but there's the more uh um ele not elementary, but the more uh um ele not elementary, but the more uh um ele not elementary, but at least introductory. at least introductory. at least introductory. And then um I would say in terms of just And then um I would say in terms of just And then um I would say in terms of just practical advice practical advice practical advice and I don't think this is very hard to and I don't think this is very hard to and I don't think this is very hard to apply and many people have said this apply and many people have said this apply and many people have said this read the Bible as a story right you know read the Bible as a story right you know read the Bible as a story right you know I I remember when I went to Fuller I I remember when I went to Fuller I I remember when I went to Fuller Seminary and I met one of the students Seminary and I met one of the students Seminary and I met one of the students wives and she said you know what I'm wives and she said you know what I'm wives and she said you know what I'm doing for my devotions I'm reading a doing for my devotions I'm reading a doing for my devotions I'm reading a verse a day verse a day verse a day and I'm like oh Well, it's going to be and I'm like oh Well, it's going to be and I'm like oh Well, it's going to be really hard to see the story, right? If really hard to see the story, right? If really hard to see the story, right? If you're reading a verse, I didn't say you're reading a verse, I didn't say you're reading a verse, I didn't say that to her, but if you're reading a that to her, but if you're reading a that to her, but if you're reading a verse a day, so I think at least in a verse a day, so I think at least in a verse a day, so I think at least in a lot of evangelical subculture, the way lot of evangelical subculture, the way lot of evangelical subculture, the way the Bible is read and the way it's the Bible is read and the way it's the Bible is read and the way it's preached, not not that it's wrong to be preached, not not that it's wrong to be preached, not not that it's wrong to be to preach it this way, is a paragraph at

to preach it this way, is a paragraph at to preach it this way, is a paragraph at a time and the whole, right? So to say a time and the whole, right? So to say a time and the whole, right? So to say to people, this this is so basic, right? to people, this this is so basic, right? to people, this this is so basic, right? sit down and read the whole book, right? sit down and read the whole book, right? sit down and read the whole book, right? What what's the whole book saying? What what's the whole book saying? What what's the whole book saying? What's the story? And how does how does What's the story? And how does how does What's the story? And how does how does Exodus relate to Genesis? And so that's Exodus relate to Genesis? And so that's Exodus relate to Genesis? And so that's that's not hard. that's not hard. that's not hard. Uh I I don't think it's extremely Uh I I don't think it's extremely Uh I I don't think it's extremely difficult to figure out, but I think a difficult to figure out, but I think a difficult to figure out, but I think a lot of people don't do it right. They lot of people don't do it right. They lot of people don't do it right. They just read they're reading their every just read they're reading their every just read they're reading their every book is siloed off from the other and book is siloed off from the other and book is siloed off from the other and maybe they don't even think out what the maybe they don't even think out what the maybe they don't even think out what the story of the whole book is. So that's story of the whole book is. So that's story of the whole book is. So that's that's the first thing I'd say and a that's the first thing I'd say and a that's the first thing I'd say and a little more advanced but I think it little more advanced but I think it little more advanced but I think it yields all kinds of benefits is you yields all kinds of benefits is you yields all kinds of benefits is you you've got to learn to read you've got to learn to read you've got to learn to read typologically. typologically. typologically. I mean I think typology is huge. If I I I mean I think typology is huge. If I I I mean I think typology is huge. If I I would say if you if and and there are would say if you if and and there are would say if you if and and there are some scholars we know that we could name some scholars we know that we could name some scholars we know that we could name who aren't very positive about typology who aren't very positive about typology who aren't very positive about typology but if you don't read typologically but if you don't read typologically but if you don't read typologically I don't see how you can uh I don't see how you can uh I don't see how you can uh how the whole Bible speaks to a how the whole Bible speaks to a how the whole Bible speaks to a Christian today. And the example I Christian today. And the example I Christian today. And the example I always give to my students because it's always give to my students because it's always give to my students because it's so simple. I said look everybody reads so simple. I said look everybody reads so simple. I said look everybody reads the Old Testament sacrifices the Old Testament sacrifices the Old Testament sacrifices typologically.

typologically. typologically. Everybody that I know of, nobody reads Everybody that I know of, nobody reads Everybody that I know of, nobody reads those and says, "Well, that's what we those and says, "Well, that's what we those and says, "Well, that's what we should do today offer animal sacrifices, should do today offer animal sacrifices, should do today offer animal sacrifices, right?" Nobody says that. I mean, how right?" Nobody says that. I mean, how right?" Nobody says that. I mean, how would you even preach Leviticus unless would you even preach Leviticus unless would you even preach Leviticus unless you see that fulfilled in the sacrifice you see that fulfilled in the sacrifice you see that fulfilled in the sacrifice of Christ? Well, that's a typological of Christ? Well, that's a typological of Christ? Well, that's a typological reading. Well, if you can do it there, reading. Well, if you can do it there, reading. Well, if you can do it there, you know, we can think of Greg Beal on you know, we can think of Greg Beal on you know, we can think of Greg Beal on the temple. We can think of write theme the temple. We can think of write theme the temple. We can think of write theme after theme after theme. And uh there after theme after theme. And uh there after theme after theme. And uh there there's so much great stuff that is there's so much great stuff that is there's so much great stuff that is written, you know. I mean, my friend written, you know. I mean, my friend written, you know. I mean, my friend Orin Martin on the land, his book on the Orin Martin on the land, his book on the Orin Martin on the land, his book on the land is there's just so many great land is there's just so many great land is there's just so many great things out there. Um Ryan Listister, I things out there. Um Ryan Listister, I things out there. Um Ryan Listister, I mean, I'm thinking of friends who've mean, I'm thinking of friends who've mean, I'm thinking of friends who've been at Southern who wrote on God's been at Southern who wrote on God's been at Southern who wrote on God's presence as a theme throughout the presence as a theme throughout the presence as a theme throughout the Bible. So, that's another another thing Bible. So, that's another another thing Bible. So, that's another another thing to think of. You can take almost any to think of. You can take almost any to think of. You can take almost any theme, major theme, right? as Greg Beal theme, major theme, right? as Greg Beal theme, major theme, right? as Greg Beal did with the temple and you can run it did with the temple and you can run it did with the temple and you can run it through or New Exodus. You guys have through or New Exodus. You guys have through or New Exodus. You guys have both worked on that. So, or or or or both worked on that. So, or or or or both worked on that. So, or or or or just say Exodus, right? Exodus, New just say Exodus, right? Exodus, New just say Exodus, right? Exodus, New Exodus. I mean, to run that through the Exodus. I mean, to run that through the Exodus. I mean, to run that through the Bible and begin to see I don't think Bible and begin to see I don't think Bible and begin to see I don't think those things are terribly difficult. And those things are terribly difficult. And those things are terribly difficult. And once you see them, you can say, "Well, once you see them, you can say, "Well, once you see them, you can say, "Well, wow, this the whole Bible fits together wow, this the whole Bible fits together wow, this the whole Bible fits together in such an exciting way." Or we could in such an exciting way." Or we could in such an exciting way." Or we could and and and the thing is right there's and and and the thing is right there's and and and the thing is right there's there's so much I mean there's so many there's so much I mean there's so many there's so much I mean there's so many themes that you could tackle that are or

themes that you could tackle that are or themes that you could tackle that are or or persons you know one of our may maybe or persons you know one of our may maybe or persons you know one of our may maybe you've seen uh Samadotti's stuff on you've seen uh Samadotti's stuff on you've seen uh Samadotti's stuff on Joseph I think in the series Joseph I think in the series Joseph I think in the series >> really good >> really good >> really good >> so um and you know I mean that's not a >> so um and you know I mean that's not a >> so um and you know I mean that's not a theme that's investigated as much so theme that's investigated as much so theme that's investigated as much so that I think there's always more to look that I think there's always more to look that I think there's always more to look at and some themes that people haven't at and some themes that people haven't at and some themes that people haven't considered previously. considered previously. considered previously. >> Yeah. What's nice is that this is a case >> Yeah. What's nice is that this is a case >> Yeah. What's nice is that this is a case where if you let So these themes that where if you let So these themes that where if you let So these themes that you're talking about, Tom, whether it's you're talking about, Tom, whether it's you're talking about, Tom, whether it's a person or a theme or an institution, a person or a theme or an institution, a person or a theme or an institution, the New Testament makes these the New Testament makes these the New Testament makes these connections and most the it most most of connections and most the it most most of connections and most the it most most of the time it does so through uh illusions the time it does so through uh illusions the time it does so through uh illusions or through a parallel concept. You will or through a parallel concept. You will or through a parallel concept. You will get some quotations here and there of get some quotations here and there of get some quotations here and there of course but it prefers New Testament course but it prefers New Testament course but it prefers New Testament authors they prefer to do it through authors they prefer to do it through authors they prefer to do it through conceptual parallel or through illusion. conceptual parallel or through illusion. conceptual parallel or through illusion. So it's just really just a matter of So it's just really just a matter of So it's just really just a matter of just of being sensitive to that. I tell just of being sensitive to that. I tell just of being sensitive to that. I tell my students to read expectantly to my students to read expectantly to my students to read expectantly to expect these connections so that uh expect these connections so that uh expect these connections so that uh you're more sensitive to them to just you're more sensitive to them to just you're more sensitive to them to just let let them do what they're doing and let let them do what they're doing and let let them do what they're doing and you'll see just everything come you'll see just everything come you'll see just everything come together. Most of the time it is together. Most of the time it is together. Most of the time it is typological.

typological. typological. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Seeing the illusions >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Seeing the illusions >> Yeah. Yeah. Yes. Seeing the illusions echoes, right? Yeah. So, so helpful. echoes, right? Yeah. So, so helpful. echoes, right? Yeah. So, so helpful. >> Yeah. So, uh in light of that, um we >> Yeah. So, uh in light of that, um we >> Yeah. So, uh in light of that, um we thought it might be an interesting thought it might be an interesting thought it might be an interesting exercise to look at a passage together exercise to look at a passage together exercise to look at a passage together and um just pull out at a quick look, and um just pull out at a quick look, and um just pull out at a quick look, you know, what are some of the biblical you know, what are some of the biblical you know, what are some of the biblical theological themes that come out? What theological themes that come out? What theological themes that come out? What are some um you know I uh maybe even are some um you know I uh maybe even are some um you know I uh maybe even illusions that are there? And so I I I illusions that are there? And so I I I illusions that are there? And so I I I think we gave you the heads up that we think we gave you the heads up that we think we gave you the heads up that we were going to look at Luke 1, the were going to look at Luke 1, the were going to look at Luke 1, the Magnificat. I hope so. I mean I'm sure Magnificat. I hope so. I mean I'm sure Magnificat. I hope so. I mean I'm sure you can do this off the top of your you can do this off the top of your you can do this off the top of your head, but I think we gave you a heads up head, but I think we gave you a heads up head, but I think we gave you a heads up that we were going here. that we were going here. that we were going here. >> Well, we can all do it together. >> Well, we can all do it together. >> Well, we can all do it together. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah, absolutely. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, uh Luke 1 >> So, uh Luke 1 >> So, uh Luke 1 uh verses 46- 55 is traditionally called uh verses 46- 55 is traditionally called uh verses 46- 55 is traditionally called the Magnificat. Um, the Magnificat. Um, the Magnificat. Um, Ben, do you have that handy to read? Ben, do you have that handy to read? Ben, do you have that handy to read? >> All right. This is from the NIV.

>> All right. This is from the NIV. >> All right. This is from the NIV. So, my apologies if I offend either of So, my apologies if I offend either of So, my apologies if I offend either of you. you. you. >> It's fine. >> It's fine. >> It's fine. >> Well, Tom's probably reading out of the >> Well, Tom's probably reading out of the >> Well, Tom's probably reading out of the CSV and I'm looking at the ESV. So, I I CSV and I'm looking at the ESV. So, I I CSV and I'm looking at the ESV. So, I I feel like we've kind of got a spectrum feel like we've kind of got a spectrum feel like we've kind of got a spectrum here covered. here covered. here covered. >> No, but yeah, we're very ecumenical on >> No, but yeah, we're very ecumenical on >> No, but yeah, we're very ecumenical on this podcast. this podcast. this podcast. >> I I always say to my students, I say, >> I I always say to my students, I say, >> I I always say to my students, I say, "Look, all three of those translations "Look, all three of those translations "Look, all three of those translations are great." All right. Uh verse 4, we'll are great." All right. Uh verse 4, we'll are great." All right. Uh verse 4, we'll pick it up in verse 46. And Mary said, pick it up in verse 46. And Mary said, pick it up in verse 46. And Mary said, "My soul glorifies the Lord, and my "My soul glorifies the Lord, and my "My soul glorifies the Lord, and my spirit rejoices in God, my savior. For spirit rejoices in God, my savior. For spirit rejoices in God, my savior. For he has been mindful of his of the humble he has been mindful of his of the humble he has been mindful of his of the humble estate of his servant. From now on, all estate of his servant. From now on, all estate of his servant. From now on, all generations will call me blessed. For generations will call me blessed. For generations will call me blessed. For the mighty one has done great things for the mighty one has done great things for the mighty one has done great things for me. Holy is his name." Verse 50. His me. Holy is his name." Verse 50. His me. Holy is his name." Verse 50. His mercy extends to those who fear him. mercy extends to those who fear him. mercy extends to those who fear him. From generation to generation, he has From generation to generation, he has From generation to generation, he has performed mighty deeds with his arm. He performed mighty deeds with his arm. He performed mighty deeds with his arm. He has scattered those who are proud in has scattered those who are proud in has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts. He has brought their inmost thoughts. He has brought their inmost thoughts. He has brought down rulers from their thrones, but has down rulers from their thrones, but has down rulers from their thrones, but has lifted up the humble. He has filled the lifted up the humble. He has filled the lifted up the humble. He has filled the hungry with good things, but he has sent hungry with good things, but he has sent hungry with good things, but he has sent the rich away empty. He has helped his the rich away empty. He has helped his the rich away empty. He has helped his servant Israel, remembering to be servant Israel, remembering to be servant Israel, remembering to be merciful to Abraham and his descendants merciful to Abraham and his descendants merciful to Abraham and his descendants forever, just as he promised our forever, just as he promised our forever, just as he promised our ancestors. Okay, so we we'll let you get ancestors. Okay, so we we'll let you get ancestors. Okay, so we we'll let you get uh first crack at it, Tom. What what uh first crack at it, Tom. What what uh first crack at it, Tom. What what what are some things that immediately what are some things that immediately what are some things that immediately stand out to you as you look at that and stand out to you as you look at that and stand out to you as you look at that and go, "Okay, I'm making some biblical go, "Okay, I'm making some biblical go, "Okay, I'm making some biblical theology connections uh here, even as theology connections uh here, even as theology connections uh here, even as you're thinking about whether you were you're thinking about whether you were you're thinking about whether you were just reading it devotionally or even just reading it devotionally or even just reading it devotionally or even thinking, I'm preparing to preach or

thinking, I'm preparing to preach or thinking, I'm preparing to preach or teach this passage." teach this passage." teach this passage." >> Yeah. Well, I I'd say a couple things >> Yeah. Well, I I'd say a couple things >> Yeah. Well, I I'd say a couple things off the top of my head. First, anyone off the top of my head. First, anyone off the top of my head. First, anyone who knows their Bible immediately who knows their Bible immediately who knows their Bible immediately recognizes there are so many connections recognizes there are so many connections recognizes there are so many connections to Hannah's song, right, in 1st Samuel 2 to Hannah's song, right, in 1st Samuel 2 to Hannah's song, right, in 1st Samuel 2 uh 1-10. So if you haven't if you don't uh 1-10. So if you haven't if you don't uh 1-10. So if you haven't if you don't see that you know that's a matter of see that you know that's a matter of see that you know that's a matter of reading your whole Bible right secondly reading your whole Bible right secondly reading your whole Bible right secondly I mean this again this is very basic I mean this again this is very basic I mean this again this is very basic this is this uh hymn is very covenantal this is this uh hymn is very covenantal this is this uh hymn is very covenantal isn't it I mean you have this idea of isn't it I mean you have this idea of isn't it I mean you have this idea of Abraham the the word the word mercy uh Abraham the the word the word mercy uh Abraham the the word the word mercy uh alas in the Greek for covenant so alas in the Greek for covenant so alas in the Greek for covenant so one of the huge themes of biblical one of the huge themes of biblical one of the huge themes of biblical theology which we haven't talked about theology which we haven't talked about theology which we haven't talked about obviously we can't talk about everything obviously we can't talk about everything obviously we can't talk about everything is you got to read the Bible is you got to read the Bible is you got to read the Bible covenantally covenantally covenantally and and and the covenants uh the the and and and the covenants uh the the and and and the covenants uh the the covenant with Abraham is such a covenant with Abraham is such a covenant with Abraham is such a fundamental theme for biblical theology fundamental theme for biblical theology fundamental theme for biblical theology and it is quite striking right that Mary and it is quite striking right that Mary and it is quite striking right that Mary at this point is seeing the fulfillment at this point is seeing the fulfillment at this point is seeing the fulfillment uh of of of the covenant and maybe that uh of of of the covenant and maybe that uh of of of the covenant and maybe that maybe the third thing I'd say is uh you maybe the third thing I'd say is uh you maybe the third thing I'd say is uh you know they're their illusions to Isaiah know they're their illusions to Isaiah know they're their illusions to Isaiah in in God being the savior of Israel in in God being the savior of Israel in in God being the savior of Israel being the servant and uh and and and I being the servant and uh and and and I being the servant and uh and and and I think notions of the old and new Exodus think notions of the old and new Exodus think notions of the old and new Exodus are are in there. So there's Psalm 111

are are in there. So there's Psalm 111 are are in there. So there's Psalm 111 which is a very much an Exodus psalm. which is a very much an Exodus psalm. which is a very much an Exodus psalm. So what what's striking about this So what what's striking about this So what what's striking about this passage is it is so rich with with um passage is it is so rich with with um passage is it is so rich with with um Old Testament illusions and and uh Old Testament illusions and and uh Old Testament illusions and and uh biblical theological themes that it's biblical theological themes that it's biblical theological themes that it's it's almost overwhelming, right? You it's almost overwhelming, right? You it's almost overwhelming, right? You read it like, "Wow." read it like, "Wow." read it like, "Wow." >> You know, Mary I I think it's fair to >> You know, Mary I I think it's fair to >> You know, Mary I I think it's fair to say, Tom, that Mary knows her Bible say, Tom, that Mary knows her Bible say, Tom, that Mary knows her Bible well. well. well. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> It she knows it really well, doesn't >> It she knows it really well, doesn't >> It she knows it really well, doesn't she? She doesn't she doesn't you know on she? She doesn't she doesn't you know on she? She doesn't she doesn't you know on a more popular level I'd say to my a more popular level I'd say to my a more popular level I'd say to my students she doesn't like just say wow I students she doesn't like just say wow I students she doesn't like just say wow I feel great today you know thank you Lord feel great today you know thank you Lord feel great today you know thank you Lord for blessing me and but but it becomes for blessing me and but but it becomes for blessing me and but but it becomes very uh right covenantal and and very uh right covenantal and and very uh right covenantal and and corporate and fulfilling of God's corporate and fulfilling of God's corporate and fulfilling of God's promises of of course she says I'm promises of of course she says I'm promises of of course she says I'm blessed and that's in there but yeah blessed and that's in there but yeah blessed and that's in there but yeah it's she's appropriating the storyline it's she's appropriating the storyline it's she's appropriating the storyline of the Bible of the Bible of the Bible you know, she really that's that's quite you know, she really that's that's quite you know, she really that's that's quite amazing amazing amazing >> and and and it's fascinating. I'm always >> and and and it's fascinating. I'm always >> and and and it's fascinating. I'm always amazed when you when I track illusions amazed when you when I track illusions amazed when you when I track illusions and quotations to see how in this case and quotations to see how in this case and quotations to see how in this case Mary how she combines text. So sometimes Mary how she combines text. So sometimes Mary how she combines text. So sometimes sometimes text that we would not sometimes text that we would not sometimes text that we would not typically combine like we wouldn't put typically combine like we wouldn't put typically combine like we wouldn't put like a Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 together.

like a Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 together. like a Daniel 7 and Isaiah 53 together. We wouldn't join those two. But yet We wouldn't join those two. But yet We wouldn't join those two. But yet Jesus joins them all over the place. So, Jesus joins them all over the place. So, Jesus joins them all over the place. So, here we've got the way that she stacks here we've got the way that she stacks here we've got the way that she stacks these Old Testament illusions. It's very these Old Testament illusions. It's very these Old Testament illusions. It's very interesting to see how she weaves them interesting to see how she weaves them interesting to see how she weaves them together. together. together. >> Do you do you have an example you want >> Do you do you have an example you want >> Do you do you have an example you want to give us of that or not? You're not to give us of that or not? You're not to give us of that or not? You're not thinking of one off the top of your thinking of one off the top of your thinking of one off the top of your head. head. head. >> Oh, well, the one that I was just Oh, >> Oh, well, the one that I was just Oh, >> Oh, well, the one that I was just Oh, you mean here? you mean here? you mean here? >> Yeah. Well, like the language in 47. >> Yeah. Well, like the language in 47. >> Yeah. Well, like the language in 47. Some people think that line that says, Some people think that line that says, Some people think that line that says, "My spirit rejoices and God my savior is "My spirit rejoices and God my savior is "My spirit rejoices and God my savior is from Habach 3." the word is actually from Habach 3." the word is actually from Habach 3." the word is actually fairly close to Habach 3 and how that's fairly close to Habach 3 and how that's fairly close to Habach 3 and how that's stacked with the 1st Samuel 1 and the stacked with the 1st Samuel 1 and the stacked with the 1st Samuel 1 and the Exodus tradition and even maybe Psalm 88 Exodus tradition and even maybe Psalm 88 Exodus tradition and even maybe Psalm 88 in verse 51 the mighty deeds and in verse 51 the mighty deeds and in verse 51 the mighty deeds and >> I didn't think of that Habach text but >> I didn't think of that Habach text but >> I didn't think of that Habach text but that's fascinating because because that that's fascinating because because that that's fascinating because because that Habach 3 text is also an Exodus text Habach 3 text is also an Exodus text Habach 3 text is also an Exodus text right a new Exodus text yeah right a new Exodus text yeah right a new Exodus text yeah >> so it is how these all they just flow in >> so it is how these all they just flow in >> so it is how these all they just flow in and out of one another don't they and out of one another don't they and out of one another don't they >> well and then the passage really kind of >> well and then the passage really kind of >> well and then the passage really kind of concludes with uh probably an illusion concludes with uh probably an illusion concludes with uh probably an illusion there to Isaiah 41 there to Isaiah 41 there to Isaiah 41 uh in terms of identifying Israel as the uh in terms of identifying Israel as the uh in terms of identifying Israel as the servant. And you know, obviously that's servant. And you know, obviously that's servant. And you know, obviously that's a massive theme in in um in Isaiah is a massive theme in in um in Isaiah is a massive theme in in um in Isaiah is the connection between the servant and the connection between the servant and the connection between the servant and the promised new Exodus. And so, you the promised new Exodus. And so, you the promised new Exodus. And so, you know, it's it's really, you know, to add know, it's it's really, you know, to add know, it's it's really, you know, to add on to what what Ben's saying here, it's on to what what Ben's saying here, it's on to what what Ben's saying here, it's it's she's bringing together these texts it's she's bringing together these texts it's she's bringing together these texts that we wouldn't necessarily bring

that we wouldn't necessarily bring that we wouldn't necessarily bring together. But, you know, let let's together. But, you know, let let's together. But, you know, let let's remember who this is. Like, this is not remember who this is. Like, this is not remember who this is. Like, this is not a professionally trained biblical a professionally trained biblical a professionally trained biblical scholar of her day. scholar of her day. scholar of her day. This is a humble, you know, a humble This is a humble, you know, a humble This is a humble, you know, a humble young woman who knows the scriptures young woman who knows the scriptures young woman who knows the scriptures because she's sitting in synagogue every because she's sitting in synagogue every because she's sitting in synagogue every week and she's hearing them taught and week and she's hearing them taught and week and she's hearing them taught and explained, she's probably reflecting on explained, she's probably reflecting on explained, she's probably reflecting on them throughout the day and the week. them throughout the day and the week. them throughout the day and the week. And so that, you know, even when the And so that, you know, even when the And so that, you know, even when the angel Gabriel comes to her and uses angel Gabriel comes to her and uses angel Gabriel comes to her and uses categories earlier in Luke 1 where it's categories earlier in Luke 1 where it's categories earlier in Luke 1 where it's like, okay, your your your son is going like, okay, your your your son is going like, okay, your your your son is going to sit on David's throne. and she has to sit on David's throne. and she has to sit on David's throne. and she has the categories already built in to go, I the categories already built in to go, I the categories already built in to go, I know exactly what that what you're know exactly what that what you're know exactly what that what you're referring to. And that now that she referring to. And that now that she referring to. And that now that she praises God for this, she's obviously praises God for this, she's obviously praises God for this, she's obviously moved beyond as she's reflected now moved beyond as she's reflected now moved beyond as she's reflected now about that promise to David, how it about that promise to David, how it about that promise to David, how it expands out to the fulfillment of God's expands out to the fulfillment of God's expands out to the fulfillment of God's covenant promises all throughout the Old covenant promises all throughout the Old covenant promises all throughout the Old Testament. That it's not just, oh, this Testament. That it's not just, oh, this Testament. That it's not just, oh, this individual covenant that God made to individual covenant that God made to individual covenant that God made to David is being fulfilled. It's this is David is being fulfilled. It's this is David is being fulfilled. It's this is the fulfillment of all of God's covenant the fulfillment of all of God's covenant the fulfillment of all of God's covenant promises that they merge together, that promises that they merge together, that promises that they merge together, that they interlock with one another. And they interlock with one another. And they interlock with one another. And again, this is this is just a young again, this is this is just a young again, this is this is just a young woman who knows the scriptures.

woman who knows the scriptures. woman who knows the scriptures. >> Yeah. Fascinating to know >> Yeah. Fascinating to know >> Yeah. Fascinating to know how much she'd memorized. Probably a how much she'd memorized. Probably a how much she'd memorized. Probably a lot. I think the most sophisticated lot. I think the most sophisticated lot. I think the most sophisticated thing, Matt and Tom, is in verse 46 thing, Matt and Tom, is in verse 46 thing, Matt and Tom, is in verse 46 when Mary says, "My soul glorifies the when Mary says, "My soul glorifies the when Mary says, "My soul glorifies the Lord." That that line, that word there, Lord." That that line, that word there, Lord." That that line, that word there, curios. Now, I know Tom, you warned us curios. Now, I know Tom, you warned us curios. Now, I know Tom, you warned us about word studies, but what's nice about word studies, but what's nice about word studies, but what's nice about this word curios is that it's used about this word curios is that it's used about this word curios is that it's used just a pre couple verses before with just a pre couple verses before with just a pre couple verses before with Elizabeth and how Elizabeth Elizabeth and how Elizabeth Elizabeth and how Elizabeth confesses. She says, "But uh why am I so confesses. She says, "But uh why am I so confesses. She says, "But uh why am I so favored that the mother of my Lord?" So favored that the mother of my Lord?" So favored that the mother of my Lord?" So that that word Lord there in verse 43 is that that word Lord there in verse 43 is that that word Lord there in verse 43 is a reference to Jesus. a reference to Jesus. a reference to Jesus. >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. >> If if the reference is still the same, I >> If if the reference is still the same, I >> If if the reference is still the same, I mean I mean it's Do you see what what mean I mean it's Do you see what what mean I mean it's Do you see what what Luke is doing is he's he's he's Luke is doing is he's he's he's Luke is doing is he's he's he's identifying Jesus here as the Lord. And identifying Jesus here as the Lord. And identifying Jesus here as the Lord. And so if you if Mary is starting to maybe so if you if Mary is starting to maybe so if you if Mary is starting to maybe pull, she may not have full awareness of pull, she may not have full awareness of pull, she may not have full awareness of this, but that word Lord there, if she's this, but that word Lord there, if she's this, but that word Lord there, if she's confessing, if if you know Jesus is confessing, if if you know Jesus is confessing, if if you know Jesus is somehow involved in that title, it's somehow involved in that title, it's somehow involved in that title, it's just tremendous. It just takes this text just tremendous. It just takes this text just tremendous. It just takes this text to a whole another level.

to a whole another level. to a whole another level. >> Well, there's a lot more I mean that we >> Well, there's a lot more I mean that we >> Well, there's a lot more I mean that we could dig into here in uh in Luke 1. And could dig into here in uh in Luke 1. And could dig into here in uh in Luke 1. And uh you know I I would point uh our uh you know I I would point uh our uh you know I I would point uh our listeners to I know uh Tom you've listeners to I know uh Tom you've listeners to I know uh Tom you've written a commentary on Luke in the uh written a commentary on Luke in the uh written a commentary on Luke in the uh ESV uh expositors commentary series ESV uh expositors commentary series ESV uh expositors commentary series where I'm sure you touch on uh a lot of where I'm sure you touch on uh a lot of where I'm sure you touch on uh a lot of these elements and uh Ben you've written these elements and uh Ben you've written these elements and uh Ben you've written uh a book in the uh New Testament uh a book in the uh New Testament uh a book in the uh New Testament theology series by Crossway uh on theology series by Crossway uh on theology series by Crossway uh on basically a biblical theology of Luke. basically a biblical theology of Luke. basically a biblical theology of Luke. Remind me of the title from the major to Remind me of the title from the major to Remind me of the title from the major to the throne. There you go. the throne. There you go. the throne. There you go. >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's in our Brian >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's in our Brian >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So that's in our Brian Rosner and I are the editors. Yeah. Rosner and I are the editors. Yeah. Rosner and I are the editors. Yeah. We're very thankful for Ben's We're very thankful for Ben's We're very thankful for Ben's contribution. Yeah. contribution. Yeah. contribution. Yeah. >> So one of the things we like to do >> So one of the things we like to do >> So one of the things we like to do towards the end of our episodes is is towards the end of our episodes is is towards the end of our episodes is is make recommendations for uh resources make recommendations for uh resources make recommendations for uh resources for listeners to to check out. And uh for listeners to to check out. And uh for listeners to to check out. And uh we're going to highlight just a few of we're going to highlight just a few of we're going to highlight just a few of the things that you've written, Tom. And the things that you've written, Tom. And the things that you've written, Tom. And we kind of move from like beginner or we kind of move from like beginner or we kind of move from like beginner or entry level to intermediate to uh maybe entry level to intermediate to uh maybe entry level to intermediate to uh maybe advanced. So, I don't I don't I don't advanced. So, I don't I don't I don't advanced. So, I don't I don't I don't know if you'll agree with our know if you'll agree with our know if you'll agree with our classifications here, but classifications here, but classifications here, but um I I'll get us started with what I um I I'll get us started with what I um I I'll get us started with what I think would would certainly qualify as think would would certainly qualify as think would would certainly qualify as sort of entry level beginner is uh your sort of entry level beginner is uh your sort of entry level beginner is uh your book um Covenant and God's Purpose for book um Covenant and God's Purpose for book um Covenant and God's Purpose for the World, part of the um part of the the World, part of the um part of the the World, part of the um part of the short studies and biblical Theology short studies and biblical Theology short studies and biblical Theology series that uh that Crossway puts series that uh that Crossway puts series that uh that Crossway puts together. Um, so that'd be uh any together. Um, so that'd be uh any together. Um, so that'd be uh any thoughts on that that you want to share thoughts on that that you want to share thoughts on that that you want to share about what that book would help about what that book would help about what that book would help listeners with?

listeners with? listeners with? >> Yeah, that that was a I think I think >> Yeah, that that was a I think I think >> Yeah, that that was a I think I think that's uh I mean that's just a helpful that's uh I mean that's just a helpful that's uh I mean that's just a helpful theme, right? We talked about that theme, right? We talked about that theme, right? We talked about that earlier to think through God's covenants earlier to think through God's covenants earlier to think through God's covenants helps us think through the biblical helps us think through the biblical helps us think through the biblical story. So, um yeah, that was my attempt story. So, um yeah, that was my attempt story. So, um yeah, that was my attempt and and it was it was fun to do it in a and and it was it was fun to do it in a and and it was it was fun to do it in a in a more non-technical way. And I think in a more non-technical way. And I think in a more non-technical way. And I think you're right. It's I think it's you're right. It's I think it's you're right. It's I think it's accessible to the beginner and it's accessible to the beginner and it's accessible to the beginner and it's a good way to get acquainted with the a good way to get acquainted with the a good way to get acquainted with the biblical storyline is to think through biblical storyline is to think through biblical storyline is to think through the covenants. the covenants. the covenants. >> Mhm. This is actually one of my favorite >> Mhm. This is actually one of my favorite >> Mhm. This is actually one of my favorite volumes in that series, Tom. I I really volumes in that series, Tom. I I really volumes in that series, Tom. I I really enjoyed it. enjoyed it. enjoyed it. >> Oh, thank you. >> Oh, thank you. >> Oh, thank you. >> Ben, what's next? What you got? Oh, let >> Ben, what's next? What you got? Oh, let >> Ben, what's next? What you got? Oh, let me see what's next here. Uh oh, we'll do me see what's next here. Uh oh, we'll do me see what's next here. Uh oh, we'll do this one. Uh it's a little bit chunky this one. Uh it's a little bit chunky this one. Uh it's a little bit chunky for our intermediate, though. Yeah, it's for our intermediate, though. Yeah, it's for our intermediate, though. Yeah, it's maybe your revision will be slimmer. I maybe your revision will be slimmer. I maybe your revision will be slimmer. I don't know. don't know. don't know. >> Well, now I'm not revising that. >> Well, now I'm not revising that. >> Well, now I'm not revising that. >> Oh, you're not. Okay. Okay. >> Oh, you're not. Okay. Okay. >> Oh, you're not. Okay. Okay. >> I'm revising The King and His Beauty. >> I'm revising The King and His Beauty. >> I'm revising The King and His Beauty. >> Oh, I skipped to the I skipped to >> Oh, I skipped to the I skipped to >> Oh, I skipped to the I skipped to advance, Ben.

advance, Ben. advance, Ben. >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right. >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right. >> Oh, sorry. I'm sorry. That's all right. >> How about this one? >> How about this one? >> How about this one? >> Okay. This is good here. Joy of hearing. >> Okay. This is good here. Joy of hearing. >> Okay. This is good here. Joy of hearing. So, this this you spun out from your So, this this you spun out from your So, this this you spun out from your your commentary your commentary your commentary um in the Shriner in in this in the very um in the Shriner in in this in the very um in the Shriner in in this in the very series that you edit. Uh, so yeah, I series that you edit. Uh, so yeah, I series that you edit. Uh, so yeah, I really enjoyed this one. This is this is really enjoyed this one. This is this is really enjoyed this one. This is this is I'm sure that this was a lot of fun for I'm sure that this was a lot of fun for I'm sure that this was a lot of fun for you to write after doing your you to write after doing your you to write after doing your commentary. commentary. commentary. >> Yeah, I actually I actually wrote it >> Yeah, I actually I actually wrote it >> Yeah, I actually I actually wrote it before my commentary, but that's so I before my commentary, but that's so I before my commentary, but that's so I sent it in the crossway and then Justin sent it in the crossway and then Justin sent it in the crossway and then Justin Taylor said it was his idea. He said, Taylor said it was his idea. He said, Taylor said it was his idea. He said, "Let's make it a series." "Let's make it a series." "Let's make it a series." >> Oh. So that was Crossway's idea and I >> Oh. So that was Crossway's idea and I >> Oh. So that was Crossway's idea and I said, "Yeah, okay." Um, yeah. And and said, "Yeah, okay." Um, yeah. And and said, "Yeah, okay." Um, yeah. And and Pride of Place went to people. Of Pride of Place went to people. Of Pride of Place went to people. Of course, Matt, you did second Peter and course, Matt, you did second Peter and course, Matt, you did second Peter and Jude. People who had already written the Jude. People who had already written the Jude. People who had already written the commentary in the SV commentary in the SV commentary in the SV 12 volume commentary. If they if they 12 volume commentary. If they if they 12 volume commentary. If they if they had done it, uh I think they usually not had done it, uh I think they usually not had done it, uh I think they usually not in every case, but they usually got in every case, but they usually got in every case, but they usually got first dibs on the biblical theology. So, first dibs on the biblical theology. So, first dibs on the biblical theology. So, I that's a little series I'd recommend I that's a little series I'd recommend I that's a little series I'd recommend cuz that's very in nice introductory cuz that's very in nice introductory cuz that's very in nice introductory series on every book of the New series on every book of the New series on every book of the New Testament. So, yeah, Ben did that. Matt Testament. So, yeah, Ben did that. Matt Testament. So, yeah, Ben did that. Matt Matt did one and my own son did one.

Matt did one and my own son did one. Matt did one and my own son did one. >> Yes. Patrick's volume on Axe is very >> Yes. Patrick's volume on Axe is very >> Yes. Patrick's volume on Axe is very good, man. good, man. good, man. >> Yeah. Yeah. I'd love I love Yeah, I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. I'd love I love Yeah, I'm >> Yeah. Yeah. I'd love I love Yeah, I'm very biased, but I think Patrick's is very biased, but I think Patrick's is very biased, but I think Patrick's is really good. So, really good. So, really good. So, I'm going to give uh also in the I'm going to give uh also in the I'm going to give uh also in the intermediate category. You mentioned intermediate category. You mentioned intermediate category. You mentioned this book already, but uh the king and this book already, but uh the king and this book already, but uh the king and his beauty, which is you said you're his beauty, which is you said you're his beauty, which is you said you're currently revising that. currently revising that. currently revising that. Um so, this is uh subtitle a biblical Um so, this is uh subtitle a biblical Um so, this is uh subtitle a biblical Theology of the Old and New Testaments. Theology of the Old and New Testaments. Theology of the Old and New Testaments. Uh, I think this, you know, we put it in Uh, I think this, you know, we put it in Uh, I think this, you know, we put it in the intermediate, but really I think the intermediate, but really I think the intermediate, but really I think this could also fit in the beginner. I this could also fit in the beginner. I this could also fit in the beginner. I think it's pretty accessible and this is think it's pretty accessible and this is think it's pretty accessible and this is a great companion if someone's saying, a great companion if someone's saying, a great companion if someone's saying, "Okay, in my devotional times, I'm going "Okay, in my devotional times, I'm going "Okay, in my devotional times, I'm going to be reading through Isaiah or I'm to be reading through Isaiah or I'm to be reading through Isaiah or I'm going to be reading through Deuteronomy going to be reading through Deuteronomy going to be reading through Deuteronomy or whatever to read this alongside of it or whatever to read this alongside of it or whatever to read this alongside of it to help you keep that big picture in to help you keep that big picture in to help you keep that big picture in mind as uh as you're reading through mind as uh as you're reading through mind as uh as you're reading through that." So, I I really think this is a that." So, I I really think this is a that." So, I I really think this is a terrific uh terrific volume. terrific uh terrific volume. terrific uh terrific volume. >> Yeah. Can I and I can just say I I meant >> Yeah. Can I and I can just say I I meant >> Yeah. Can I and I can just say I I meant it to be more introductory. I mean, it's it to be more introductory. I mean, it's it to be more introductory. I mean, it's longer, but I'm I I'm not very technical longer, but I'm I I'm not very technical longer, but I'm I I'm not very technical in that book at all. So that I think in that book at all. So that I think in that book at all. So that I think it's it's a way of trying to get a sense it's it's a way of trying to get a sense it's it's a way of trying to get a sense of what's what's in what's in each book.

of what's what's in what's in each book. of what's what's in what's in each book. Of course, when I do Paul, I do the Of course, when I do Paul, I do the Of course, when I do Paul, I do the whole corpus, but yeah. whole corpus, but yeah. whole corpus, but yeah. >> All right, Ben, now jump in with that uh >> All right, Ben, now jump in with that uh >> All right, Ben, now jump in with that uh with that cinder block. with that cinder block. with that cinder block. >> Now it's now it's New Testament theology >> Now it's now it's New Testament theology >> Now it's now it's New Testament theology magnifying God in Christ. I can't magnifying God in Christ. I can't magnifying God in Christ. I can't remember when this came out. remember when this came out. remember when this came out. >> I think 2007, maybe. >> I think 2007, maybe. >> I think 2007, maybe. >> 2007. I knew it's been a I knew it's >> 2007. I knew it's been a I knew it's >> 2007. I knew it's been a I knew it's been a a minute, but yeah, this is this been a a minute, but yeah, this is this been a a minute, but yeah, this is this is more this is more synthetic. This is is more this is more synthetic. This is is more this is more synthetic. This is a more rather than corpus by corpus and a more rather than corpus by corpus and a more rather than corpus by corpus and book by book. So, yeah. But I really book by book. So, yeah. But I really book by book. So, yeah. But I really enjoy this. I haven't read it all the enjoy this. I haven't read it all the enjoy this. I haven't read it all the way through, so my apologies, but every way through, so my apologies, but every way through, so my apologies, but every time I do pick it up, I enjoy it. time I do pick it up, I enjoy it. time I do pick it up, I enjoy it. >> Yeah. And that book I I did more >> Yeah. And that book I I did more >> Yeah. And that book I I did more interaction with uh secondary research interaction with uh secondary research interaction with uh secondary research as well than than the other two books. as well than than the other two books. as well than than the other two books. Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tom, uh thanks so much Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tom, uh thanks so much Yeah. Yeah. Well, Tom, uh thanks so much for uh first for the ways that you've for uh first for the ways that you've for uh first for the ways that you've shaped both Ben and I. I mean, we the shaped both Ben and I. I mean, we the shaped both Ben and I. I mean, we the way we think, the way we uh even do way we think, the way we uh even do way we think, the way we uh even do biblical theology has definitely been biblical theology has definitely been biblical theology has definitely been influenced by by your scholarship and by influenced by by your scholarship and by influenced by by your scholarship and by uh by your model. And so, uh, we we both uh by your model. And so, uh, we we both uh by your model. And so, uh, we we both are are so grateful for that, uh, are are so grateful for that, uh, are are so grateful for that, uh, personally, but, uh, also you've served personally, but, uh, also you've served personally, but, uh, also you've served the church so well and, uh, we're we're the church so well and, uh, we're we're the church so well and, uh, we're we're grateful for your ministry and we're grateful for your ministry and we're grateful for your ministry and we're we're excited at what's, you know, we're excited at what's, you know, we're excited at what's, you know, what's to come, right? So, you've got, what's to come, right? So, you've got, what's to come, right? So, you've got, uh, revisions on the King and his uh, revisions on the King and his uh, revisions on the King and his beauty. Any quickly, anything in beauty. Any quickly, anything in beauty. Any quickly, anything in particular that you're working on right particular that you're working on right particular that you're working on right now that you want to kind of tip your now that you want to kind of tip your now that you want to kind of tip your hand and say what to expect coming out hand and say what to expect coming out hand and say what to expect coming out next or soon? Well, I I wrote a

next or soon? Well, I I wrote a next or soon? Well, I I wrote a commentary on Ephesians for Baker. It's commentary on Ephesians for Baker. It's commentary on Ephesians for Baker. It's independent, not in any series. So, I independent, not in any series. So, I independent, not in any series. So, I turned that in turned that in turned that in when I I mean, hopefully it'll be out in when I I mean, hopefully it'll be out in when I I mean, hopefully it'll be out in a year or so. I turned that in maybe in a year or so. I turned that in maybe in a year or so. I turned that in maybe in November. Um, and I we're doing it's not November. Um, and I we're doing it's not November. Um, and I we're doing it's not biblical theology, but we're doing I biblical theology, but we're doing I biblical theology, but we're doing I think it's a very needed book still. think it's a very needed book still. think it's a very needed book still. We're doing a fourth edition. We're doing a fourth edition. We're doing a fourth edition. Um, maybe maybe it'll be the last one of Um, maybe maybe it'll be the last one of Um, maybe maybe it'll be the last one of women in the church. a fresh analysis of women in the church. a fresh analysis of women in the church. a fresh analysis of 1 Timothy 2:9-15. 1 Timothy 2:9-15. 1 Timothy 2:9-15. I think that book continues to be needed I think that book continues to be needed I think that book continues to be needed because because because basically most of the books that come basically most of the books that come basically most of the books that come out from the publishers are do not out from the publishers are do not out from the publishers are do not subscribe to the view we are trying to subscribe to the view we are trying to subscribe to the view we are trying to defend and honestly I think our view is defend and honestly I think our view is defend and honestly I think our view is uh just exogetically on target. So, uh just exogetically on target. So, uh just exogetically on target. So, okay. So, we're adding some things and okay. So, we're adding some things and okay. So, we're adding some things and I'm very excited about that book. And I'm very excited about that book. And I'm very excited about that book. And >> when's that supposed to be submitted? >> when's that supposed to be submitted? >> when's that supposed to be submitted? >> Well, the the new essays are due uh >> Well, the the new essays are due uh >> Well, the the new essays are due uh January 1st, 2026.

January 1st, 2026. January 1st, 2026. But but some of the essays are going to But but some of the essays are going to But but some of the essays are going to remain the same. I mean, Steven Bon remain the same. I mean, Steven Bon remain the same. I mean, Steven Bon Walters are not going to change what Walters are not going to change what Walters are not going to change what they did. But I keep I keep up. I do the they did. But I keep I keep up. I do the they did. But I keep I keep up. I do the synthetic chapter and I'm trying to read synthetic chapter and I'm trying to read synthetic chapter and I'm trying to read most of I I can't claim all that's been most of I I can't claim all that's been most of I I can't claim all that's been written in the last 10 years. But it's a written in the last 10 years. But it's a written in the last 10 years. But it's a ton every time. Every time I look at it, ton every time. Every time I look at it, ton every time. Every time I look at it, it's like, wow. For sure. For sure. So it's like, wow. For sure. For sure. So it's like, wow. For sure. For sure. So again, Tom, thanks so much for for again, Tom, thanks so much for for again, Tom, thanks so much for for joining us today. We appreciate it. joining us today. We appreciate it. joining us today. We appreciate it. >> Yeah. Great to be with you again, Matt >> Yeah. Great to be with you again, Matt >> Yeah. Great to be with you again, Matt and Ben. and Ben. and Ben. >> And we want to thank all of you for >> And we want to thank all of you for >> And we want to thank all of you for joining us uh today. Be sure to check joining us uh today. Be sure to check joining us uh today. Be sure to check out the resources at the Carson Center out the resources at the Carson Center out the resources at the Carson Center on the Gospel Coalition website. And we on the Gospel Coalition website. And we on the Gospel Coalition website. And we look forward to seeing you next time on look forward to seeing you next time on look forward to seeing you next time on the Biblical Theology Briefing.