Recognizing Our Own Marks of Righteousness [The Deep Dish - Ep. 34]

I am completely [music] I am completely [music] bankrupt. I have none and without this bankrupt. I have none and without this bankrupt. I have none and without this outside righteousness being given to me, outside righteousness being given to me, outside righteousness being given to me, I am lost and nothing and it has been I am lost and nothing and it has been I am lost and nothing and it has been given and it is only by faith, [music] given and it is only by faith, [music] given and it is only by faith, [music] which is also a gift. >> Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from >> Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition where we love The Gospel Coalition where we love The Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Doctor and I am truths. I am Courtney Doctor and I am truths. I am Courtney Doctor and I am here with my friend and co-host Melissa here with my friend and co-host Melissa here with my friend and co-host Melissa Kruger and I'm excited about our Kruger and I'm excited about our Kruger and I'm excited about our conversation today. We're going to be conversation today. We're going to be conversation today. We're going to be talking about recognizing our own, what talking about recognizing our own, what talking about recognizing our own, what we call marks of righteousness. So, we call marks of righteousness. So, we call marks of righteousness. So, Melissa, start us off by just even Melissa, start us off by just even Melissa, start us off by just even explaining what what we mean by that, by explaining what what we mean by that, by explaining what what we mean by that, by marks of righteousness. I love that marks of righteousness. I love that marks of righteousness. I love that you're excited about this. I'm like, you're excited about this. I'm like, you're excited about this. I'm like, this is like, [laughter] this is like, [laughter] this is like, [laughter] Cuz some of them are funny. When you Cuz some of them are funny. When you Cuz some of them are funny. When you recognize them, like some of them are recognize them, like some of them are recognize them, like some of them are funny. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So, funny. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So, funny. Yeah. Right. Right. Right. So, that's a good question. So, what are we that's a good question. So, what are we that's a good question. So, what are we even talking about? I think, I mean, I even talking about? I think, I mean, I even talking about? I think, I mean, I think this is things in a big sense. So, think this is things in a big sense. So, think this is things in a big sense. So, when we're talking about the serious when we're talking about the serious when we're talking about the serious things that can make us feel worthy to things that can make us feel worthy to things that can make us feel worthy to God, you know, that we can say, "Oh, I God, you know, that we can say, "Oh, I God, you know, that we can say, "Oh, I did this, you know, I did that. I'm a did this, you know, I did that. I'm a did this, you know, I did that. I'm a pretty good person. If If all of life is pretty good person. If If all of life is pretty good person. If If all of life is a balance, I'm probably going to end up a balance, I'm probably going to end up a balance, I'm probably going to end up on the nice list rather than the naughty on the nice list rather than the naughty on the nice list rather than the naughty list." You know, you know, it's some list." You know, you know, it's some list." You know, you know, it's some >> You probably will. I'm [laughter] like, >> You probably will. I'm [laughter] like, >> You probably will. I'm [laughter] like, "I think this is what we can tell "I think this is what we can tell "I think this is what we can tell ourselves." But then, I think there are ourselves." But then, I think there are ourselves." But then, I think there are all these silly marks of righteousness,

all these silly marks of righteousness, all these silly marks of righteousness, too, and I know we'll get to this, that too, and I know we'll get to this, that too, and I know we'll get to this, that are a little bit more how we just choose are a little bit more how we just choose are a little bit more how we just choose to judge people and pump ourselves up a to judge people and pump ourselves up a to judge people and pump ourselves up a little bit. Like, little bit. Like, little bit. Like, oh, you know, my child walked at 10 oh, you know, my child walked at 10 oh, you know, my child walked at 10 months. I'm sure they're going to be an months. I'm sure they're going to be an months. I'm sure they're going to be an Olympic runner now. You know, whatever Olympic runner now. You know, whatever Olympic runner now. You know, whatever it might be that, you know, we look back it might be that, you know, we look back it might be that, you know, we look back on and we're like, "What was I on and we're like, "What was I on and we're like, "What was I thinking?" Yeah. "My eyes are blue." thinking?" Yeah. "My eyes are blue." thinking?" Yeah. "My eyes are blue." Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. >> "My eyes are brown." Whatever. You know, >> "My eyes are brown." Whatever. You know, >> "My eyes are brown." Whatever. You know, like these silly things that are clearly like these silly things that are clearly like these silly things that are clearly nothing to do with us that we can take a nothing to do with us that we can take a nothing to do with us that we can take a lot of pride in sometimes. And so, I I lot of pride in sometimes. And so, I I lot of pride in sometimes. And so, I I think it's the those things, these big think it's the those things, these big think it's the those things, these big things that are real issues that make us things that are real issues that make us things that are real issues that make us feel somehow feel somehow feel somehow um um um I would say vertically okay and then I I would say vertically okay and then I I would say vertically okay and then I think we have these horizontal ones that think we have these horizontal ones that think we have these horizontal ones that probably help us feel like we measure probably help us feel like we measure probably help us feel like we measure okay in the world around us. What about okay in the world around us. What about okay in the world around us. What about you? Like, so how let's let's step back you? Like, so how let's let's step back you? Like, so how let's let's step back there a minute. there a minute. there a minute. What are we even talking about when we What are we even talking about when we What are we even talking about when we talk about righteousness? What does that talk about righteousness? What does that talk about righteousness? What does that mean? Well, righteousness, like we kind mean? Well, righteousness, like we kind mean? Well, righteousness, like we kind of shy away from that word because I of shy away from that word because I of shy away from that word because I think the the most common way it's used think the the most common way it's used think the the most common way it's used in culture is self-righteous. And so, we in culture is self-righteous. And so, we in culture is self-righteous. And so, we we like to shy away from that word, but we like to shy away from that word, but we like to shy away from that word, but righteousness is one of the most righteousness is one of the most righteousness is one of the most important concepts in all of scripture.

important concepts in all of scripture. important concepts in all of scripture. Our entire salvation is wrapped up in Our entire salvation is wrapped up in Our entire salvation is wrapped up in this in this word righteous. And when this in this word righteous. And when this in this word righteous. And when you wrote that Bible study on the book you wrote that Bible study on the book you wrote that Bible study on the book of Romans and the first three chapters of Romans and the first three chapters of Romans and the first three chapters just really spell it out. And what what just really spell it out. And what what just really spell it out. And what what the first three chapters of Romans tell the first three chapters of Romans tell the first three chapters of Romans tell us are he starts off with like, "The us are he starts off with like, "The us are he starts off with like, "The wrath of God is being revealed against wrath of God is being revealed against wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness." So, you should be unrighteousness." So, you should be unrighteousness." So, you should be like, "Well, I don't want to be like, "Well, I don't want to be like, "Well, I don't want to be unrighteous." But then he goes on and unrighteous." But then he goes on and unrighteous." But then he goes on and he's like, "Well, guess what? No one's he's like, "Well, guess what? No one's he's like, "Well, guess what? No one's righteous. No, not one." And he just And righteous. No, not one." And he just And righteous. No, not one." And he just And so, you're like, "Oh, well, so So, if so, you're like, "Oh, well, so So, if so, you're like, "Oh, well, so So, if I'm not righteous and the wrath of God I'm not righteous and the wrath of God I'm not righteous and the wrath of God is being revealed against is being revealed against is being revealed against unrighteousness, what am I going to do?" unrighteousness, what am I going to do?" unrighteousness, what am I going to do?" And then that's when Romans 3:21 comes And then that's when Romans 3:21 comes And then that's when Romans 3:21 comes in and he's like, "But, a righteousness in and he's like, "But, a righteousness in and he's like, "But, a righteousness from God has been revealed and it's from God has been revealed and it's from God has been revealed and it's given and you get it just by faith." And given and you get it just by faith." And given and you get it just by faith." And so, so our entire salvation is wrapped so, so our entire salvation is wrapped so, so our entire salvation is wrapped up in this idea of righteousness and up in this idea of righteousness and up in this idea of righteousness and whose righteousness is it? And so, it's whose righteousness is it? And so, it's whose righteousness is it? And so, it's the righteousness of Christ. And the righteousness of Christ. And the righteousness of Christ. And righteousness, it I think one reason righteousness, it I think one reason righteousness, it I think one reason it's confusing is because it can really it's confusing is because it can really it's confusing is because it can really have three different nuances to it. So, have three different nuances to it. So, have three different nuances to it. So, righteousness is who God is. Like, he is righteousness is who God is. Like, he is righteousness is who God is. Like, he is righteous. He is holy. He is morally righteous. He is holy. He is morally righteous. He is holy. He is morally pure. But it's also what he does. What pure. But it's also what he does. What pure. But it's also what he does. What he does is righteous. It is good and he does is righteous. It is good and he does is righteous. It is good and right. But then it's also what he gives.

right. But then it's also what he gives. right. But then it's also what he gives. And so, that's the righteousness of And so, that's the righteousness of And so, that's the righteousness of Christ that then we get to we get to Christ that then we get to we get to Christ that then we get to we get to receive. And so, even understanding like receive. And so, even understanding like receive. And so, even understanding like the the root of our righteousness is the the root of our righteousness is the the root of our righteousness is Christ and Christ alone and that's kind Christ and Christ alone and that's kind Christ and Christ alone and that's kind of what we're going to talk about of what we're going to talk about of what we're going to talk about because when we start making that because when we start making that because when we start making that righteousness something that we can righteousness something that we can righteousness something that we can produce, then then we are actually I produce, then then we are actually I produce, then then we are actually I mean, that is like detestable to the mean, that is like detestable to the mean, that is like detestable to the Lord because he's like, "No, you can't Lord because he's like, "No, you can't Lord because he's like, "No, you can't do that." Like, "You need to receive the do that." Like, "You need to receive the do that." Like, "You need to receive the righteousness that I'm offering to you righteousness that I'm offering to you righteousness that I'm offering to you for free and by faith." And then out of for free and by faith." And then out of for free and by faith." And then out of that, we get to walk in the that, we get to walk in the that, we get to walk in the righteousness of Christ. And so, doing righteousness of Christ. And so, doing righteousness of Christ. And so, doing good things, like living, pursuing good things, like living, pursuing good things, like living, pursuing holiness and being obedient and doing holiness and being obedient and doing holiness and being obedient and doing good works are good things, but they are good works are good things, but they are good works are good things, but they are always the fruit and not the root of our always the fruit and not the root of our always the fruit and not the root of our salvation and of and of the work of God salvation and of and of the work of God salvation and of and of the work of God in our lives. So, I I love that we in our lives. So, I I love that we in our lives. So, I I love that we started with that because it's a really, started with that because it's a really, started with that because it's a really, really important concept. And you had really important concept. And you had really important concept. And you had kind of started already naming some of kind of started already naming some of kind of started already naming some of these things and these things and these things and I think where it can get confusing is I think where it can get confusing is I think where it can get confusing is some of these are really good and right, some of these are really good and right, some of these are really good and right, but they become this fodder for this but they become this fodder for this but they become this fodder for this self-righteousness.

self-righteousness. self-righteousness. And I think we should both give some And I think we should both give some And I think we should both give some examples of things that either we've examples of things that either we've examples of things that either we've seen in our own lives or the lives of seen in our own lives or the lives of seen in our own lives or the lives of those near and dear to us. those near and dear to us. those near and dear to us. Um And And some of them, like you said, Um And And some of them, like you said, Um And And some of them, like you said, are so serious, but some of them are are so serious, but some of them are are so serious, but some of them are kind of funny. kind of funny. kind of funny. What I like that you hit on in that What I like that you hit on in that What I like that you hit on in that Ephesians 2 passage, you know, it's a Ephesians 2 passage, you know, it's a Ephesians 2 passage, you know, it's a gift of God, not by works. And there's gift of God, not by works. And there's gift of God, not by works. And there's actually a reason, so no one can boast. actually a reason, so no one can boast. actually a reason, so no one can boast. You know, but but that he has actually You know, but but that he has actually You know, but but that he has actually prepared good works for us in advance prepared good works for us in advance prepared good works for us in advance that we might walk in them. So, it's not that we might walk in them. So, it's not that we might walk in them. So, it's not in opposition to doing good. Mhm. It in opposition to doing good. Mhm. It in opposition to doing good. Mhm. It It's [clears throat] actually we're It's [clears throat] actually we're It's [clears throat] actually we're being prepared to do good. So, So, these being prepared to do good. So, So, these being prepared to do good. So, So, these things that we're getting ready to talk things that we're getting ready to talk things that we're getting ready to talk about, it's not that they're bad. It's about, it's not that they're bad. It's about, it's not that they're bad. It's just when we wear them as a badge, you just when we wear them as a badge, you just when we wear them as a badge, you know, or maybe even determine what they know, or maybe even determine what they know, or maybe even determine what they should look like. So, one thing I was should look like. So, one thing I was should look like. So, one thing I was thinking about is serving in the church. thinking about is serving in the church. thinking about is serving in the church. Like, that can be a real mark of Like, that can be a real mark of Like, that can be a real mark of self-righteousness. Like, how many days self-righteousness. Like, how many days self-righteousness. Like, how many days are you serving in the church, Courtney? are you serving in the church, Courtney? are you serving in the church, Courtney? What are you What are you doing? And And What are you What are you doing? And And What are you What are you doing? And And that that can be different. "Oh, you're that that can be different. "Oh, you're that that can be different. "Oh, you're teaching? Well, that's kind of prideful teaching? Well, that's kind of prideful teaching? Well, that's kind of prideful of you. I mean, are you sweeping the of you. I mean, are you sweeping the of you. I mean, are you sweeping the floor?" Right.

floor?" Right. floor?" Right. >> "And are you watching in the nursery?" >> "And are you watching in the nursery?" >> "And are you watching in the nursery?" Like, we can even Or it could be, "Oh, Like, we can even Or it could be, "Oh, Like, we can even Or it could be, "Oh, you teach. You never need to do anything you teach. You never need to do anything you teach. You never need to do anything else." Yes, we And it depends on what else." Yes, we And it depends on what else." Yes, we And it depends on what context you're in, what's ranked more. context you're in, what's ranked more. context you're in, what's ranked more. So, some people will be like, "Oh, you So, some people will be like, "Oh, you So, some people will be like, "Oh, you know, the person doing the nursery" know, the person doing the nursery" know, the person doing the nursery" Normally, the nursery coordinator loves Normally, the nursery coordinator loves Normally, the nursery coordinator loves these people. And I used to be that these people. And I used to be that these people. And I used to be that nursery coordinator and I loved these nursery coordinator and I loved these nursery coordinator and I loved these people. I'm like, "Yes, you're righteous people. I'm like, "Yes, you're righteous people. I'm like, "Yes, you're righteous if you serve in the nursery every week." if you serve in the nursery every week." if you serve in the nursery every week." [laughter] Yeah. I didn't really mean [laughter] Yeah. I didn't really mean [laughter] Yeah. I didn't really mean that. Um that. Um that. Um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> but Or but some >> but Or but some >> but Or but some you know, we can elevate certain gifts you know, we can elevate certain gifts you know, we can elevate certain gifts and de-elevate certain services or and de-elevate certain services or and de-elevate certain services or whatever. Um there's this desire to say, whatever. Um there's this desire to say, whatever. Um there's this desire to say, "Okay, I did this. Now I'm a good church "Okay, I did this. Now I'm a good church "Okay, I did this. Now I'm a good church member." I mean, that's one big area I member." I mean, that's one big area I member." I mean, that's one big area I see. What about you? Well, or we rank see. What about you? Well, or we rank see. What about you? Well, or we rank like like like how how good of a Christian we are how how good of a Christian we are how how good of a Christian we are through these things. Like, um And And through these things. Like, um And And through these things. Like, um And And it can be anything. It's how we educate it can be anything. It's how we educate it can be anything. It's how we educate our children. Um real Christians educate our children. Um real Christians educate our children. Um real Christians educate their children their children their children >> podcast sometime, all right?

>> podcast sometime, all right? >> podcast sometime, all right? Exactly. But anytime you start thinking Exactly. But anytime you start thinking Exactly. But anytime you start thinking like real Christians or those that are like real Christians or those that are like real Christians or those that are more serious about their faith or those more serious about their faith or those more serious about their faith or those that are more spiritually mature, you that are more spiritually mature, you that are more spiritually mature, you know, they're going to vote like this or know, they're going to vote like this or know, they're going to vote like this or they're going to um you know, handle they're going to um you know, handle they're going to um you know, handle social media in this way. Like, they're social media in this way. Like, they're social media in this way. Like, they're going to come to stronger convictions on going to come to stronger convictions on going to come to stronger convictions on it. Or it. Or it. Or um you know, I laugh at myself all the um you know, I laugh at myself all the um you know, I laugh at myself all the time because time because time because I have to combat in my own heart this I have to combat in my own heart this I have to combat in my own heart this idea that timeliness is not actually a idea that timeliness is not actually a idea that timeliness is not actually a moral virtue. Like, I view it as a moral moral virtue. Like, I view it as a moral moral virtue. Like, I view it as a moral virtue. virtue. virtue. >> Is this your secret way running me? >> Is this your secret way running me? >> Is this your secret way running me? Cuz I I'm like, "Oh, you're always Cuz I I'm like, "Oh, you're always Cuz I I'm like, "Oh, you're always late." late." late." I think I think this is I think this is I think I think this is I think this is I think I think this is I think this is secret way of saying, "Yeah, I Melissa, secret way of saying, "Yeah, I Melissa, secret way of saying, "Yeah, I Melissa, you're unrighteous and the wrath of God you're unrighteous and the wrath of God you're unrighteous and the wrath of God is being revealed." I feel superior to is being revealed." I feel superior to is being revealed." I feel superior to you when I'm on time and you're not. you when I'm on time and you're not. you when I'm on time and you're not. Like, I mean, it's just Like, I mean, it's just Like, I mean, it's just >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I have someone in my family who honestly >> I have someone in my family who honestly >> I have someone in my family who honestly thinks like thinks like thinks like that her ability to not get sick is a that her ability to not get sick is a that her ability to not get sick is a moral virtue. Like, she has a stronger moral virtue. Like, she has a stronger moral virtue. Like, she has a stronger constitution constitution constitution and it's a moral virtue that she doesn't and it's a moral virtue that she doesn't and it's a moral virtue that she doesn't get sick as often as maybe somebody get sick as often as maybe somebody get sick as often as maybe somebody else, but you just start thinking like else, but you just start thinking like else, but you just start thinking like all of these things that either all of these things that either all of these things that either you in your mind think make you superior you in your mind think make you superior you in your mind think make you superior or or or um or are this like it's you're a better um or are this like it's you're a better um or are this like it's you're a better Christian. Like, you've progressed Christian. Like, you've progressed Christian. Like, you've progressed further in your life because you've come further in your life because you've come further in your life because you've come to this particular conviction. And I

to this particular conviction. And I to this particular conviction. And I don't think you even have to be a don't think you even have to be a don't think you even have to be a Christian to fall into to Christian to fall into to Christian to fall into to self-righteousness. So, what are some of self-righteousness. So, what are some of self-righteousness. So, what are some of the things that we just see in like in the things that we just see in like in the things that we just see in like in the culture at large? the culture at large? the culture at large? Isn't it funny how moral we are as a Isn't it funny how moral we are as a Isn't it funny how moral we are as a culture even if it's not biblical culture even if it's not biblical culture even if it's not biblical morals? Man, we can get, you know, all morals? Man, we can get, you know, all morals? Man, we can get, you know, all kind of moral about certain things. I kind of moral about certain things. I kind of moral about certain things. I mean, it could be I mean, it could be mean, it could be I mean, it could be mean, it could be I mean, it could be traffic rules, which, you know, it's not traffic rules, which, you know, it's not traffic rules, which, you know, it's not bad to follow traffic rules or something bad to follow traffic rules or something bad to follow traffic rules or something like that. But like, I mean, I just like that. But like, I mean, I just like that. But like, I mean, I just think about things like how what we eat, think about things like how what we eat, think about things like how what we eat, um how we exercise. "Oh, are you still um how we exercise. "Oh, are you still um how we exercise. "Oh, are you still [clears throat] doing cardio? Oh my [clears throat] doing cardio? Oh my [clears throat] doing cardio? Oh my goodness. I'm training now. I mean, what goodness. I'm training now. I mean, what goodness. I'm training now. I mean, what are you doing? You know, I mean, and and are you doing? You know, I mean, and and are you doing? You know, I mean, and and the same thing is food. Are you still the same thing is food. Are you still the same thing is food. Are you still trying a low-carb diet? You need a trying a low-carb diet? You need a trying a low-carb diet? You need a high-protein diet. Aren't you keeping high-protein diet. Aren't you keeping high-protein diet. Aren't you keeping up, Courtney? You know, I mean, there up, Courtney? You know, I mean, there up, Courtney? You know, I mean, there man, there's this feeling, right? man, there's this feeling, right? man, there's this feeling, right? Because the reality about those norms is Because the reality about those norms is Because the reality about those norms is they're constantly changing. Um so, it they're constantly changing. Um so, it they're constantly changing. Um so, it could be even the beliefs of how could be even the beliefs of how could be even the beliefs of how government should be working, um what government should be working, um what government should be working, um what government should be doing. Oh goodness.

government should be doing. Oh goodness. government should be doing. Oh goodness. Oh good I mean, childbirth options. I'm Oh good I mean, childbirth options. I'm Oh good I mean, childbirth options. I'm so thankful I gave birth when I did. It so thankful I gave birth when I did. It so thankful I gave birth when I did. It wasn't yet a thing that it it had really wasn't yet a thing that it it had really wasn't yet a thing that it it had really become I mean, it used to just be a mark become I mean, it used to just be a mark become I mean, it used to just be a mark of righteousness. You had the baby. of righteousness. You had the baby. of righteousness. You had the baby. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. Praise the Lord. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. >> Right. Right. But natural childbirth, at home. I mean, But natural childbirth, at home. I mean, But natural childbirth, at home. I mean, there are all these things that And I there are all these things that And I there are all these things that And I think even right now this think even right now this think even right now this like the the pluralism and it is it is like the the pluralism and it is it is like the the pluralism and it is it is street cred to be street cred to be street cred to be in like like falling on the right side in like like falling on the right side in like like falling on the right side of some of these issues is of some of these issues is of some of these issues is it really is kind of has become a moral it really is kind of has become a moral it really is kind of has become a moral virtue rather than being able to hold an virtue rather than being able to hold an virtue rather than being able to hold an opinion with careful thought and maybe opinion with careful thought and maybe opinion with careful thought and maybe it's not super popular right now, but it it's not super popular right now, but it it's not super popular right now, but it it isn't a moral standing or it isn't it isn't a moral standing or it isn't it isn't a moral standing or it isn't like it doesn't make you a superior like it doesn't make you a superior like it doesn't make you a superior person. But man, right now we see that, person. But man, right now we see that, person. But man, right now we see that, don't we? Yeah, it's um and it don't we? Yeah, it's um and it don't we? Yeah, it's um and it and so I think you're right. We see it and so I think you're right. We see it and so I think you're right. We see it in the world. We see it in the church.

in the world. We see it in the church. in the world. We see it in the church. And I think And I think And I think one thing to even be thinking of as one thing to even be thinking of as one thing to even be thinking of as you're listening to this conversation is you're listening to this conversation is you're listening to this conversation is I'm thinking what I'm thinking about I'm thinking what I'm thinking about I'm thinking what I'm thinking about now. It's not just what I take pride in, now. It's not just what I take pride in, now. It's not just what I take pride in, it's also where I despair. Yeah. it's also where I despair. Yeah. it's also where I despair. Yeah. Because the other the the root of pride Because the other the the root of pride Because the other the the root of pride is always where do I feel like the is always where do I feel like the is always where do I feel like the biggest failure is actually probably a biggest failure is actually probably a biggest failure is actually probably a sign to spot my own mark of sign to spot my own mark of sign to spot my own mark of righteousness. So, I I mean, that's a righteousness. So, I I mean, that's a righteousness. So, I I mean, that's a good thing. I don't know if you have any good thing. I don't know if you have any good thing. I don't know if you have any tells tells tells um like how do you spot these in your um like how do you spot these in your um like how do you spot these in your life? Uh and so for me it can be like life? Uh and so for me it can be like life? Uh and so for me it can be like what we've just been talking about where what we've just been talking about where what we've just been talking about where we might be tempted to look down on we might be tempted to look down on we might be tempted to look down on someone else. But it's also where I find someone else. But it's also where I find someone else. But it's also where I find myself chasing something and maybe if myself chasing something and maybe if myself chasing something and maybe if I'm not even living up to my own I'm not even living up to my own I'm not even living up to my own standard, I'm exhausted and weary standard, I'm exhausted and weary standard, I'm exhausted and weary because I'm like, "Oh, wow. I didn't eat because I'm like, "Oh, wow. I didn't eat because I'm like, "Oh, wow. I didn't eat the right way I said I was going to the right way I said I was going to the right way I said I was going to eat." eat." eat." >> Which is not something, you know, in >> Which is not something, you know, in >> Which is not something, you know, in scripture that I'm shooting for scripture that I'm shooting for scripture that I'm shooting for in a sense, but I'm I'm judging myself.

in a sense, but I'm I'm judging myself. in a sense, but I'm I'm judging myself. So, it's it's that pendulum of pride and So, it's it's that pendulum of pride and So, it's it's that pendulum of pride and despair. Wherever we see I think that despair. Wherever we see I think that despair. Wherever we see I think that we're we're on that, that's maybe a good we're we're on that, that's maybe a good we're we're on that, that's maybe a good sign of of of where we're dealing with sign of of of where we're dealing with sign of of of where we're dealing with us. Well, let's read. Can I read Can I us. Well, let's read. Can I read Can I us. Well, let's read. Can I read Can I read for us Philippians 3:4-10? read for us Philippians 3:4-10? read for us Philippians 3:4-10? Um cuz I think this is a really Um cuz I think this is a really Um cuz I think this is a really interesting. Paul basically, you know, interesting. Paul basically, you know, interesting. Paul basically, you know, he gives his resume in this passage. And he gives his resume in this passage. And he gives his resume in this passage. And here's what he says. here's what he says. here's what he says. "I myself have reason for confidence in "I myself have reason for confidence in "I myself have reason for confidence in the flesh also." I think that's a good the flesh also." I think that's a good the flesh also." I think that's a good way to say it. Where am I putting way to say it. Where am I putting way to say it. Where am I putting confidence in the flesh. That's a great confidence in the flesh. That's a great confidence in the flesh. That's a great way to say it. "If anyone else thinks he way to say it. "If anyone else thinks he way to say it. "If anyone else thinks he has reasons for confidence in the flesh, has reasons for confidence in the flesh, has reasons for confidence in the flesh, I have more. Circumcised on the eighth I have more. Circumcised on the eighth I have more. Circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the day, of the people of Israel, of the day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews, as to the law a Pharisee, as to zeal a as to the law a Pharisee, as to zeal a as to the law a Pharisee, as to zeal a persecutor of the church, as to persecutor of the church, as to persecutor of the church, as to righteousness under the law blameless. righteousness under the law blameless. righteousness under the law blameless. But whatever gain I had, I count it as But whatever gain I had, I count it as But whatever gain I had, I count it as loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I loss for the sake of Christ. Indeed, I count everything as loss for the count everything as loss for the count everything as loss for the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord." Um so, okay.

my Lord." Um so, okay. my Lord." Um so, okay. Tell us a little bit about about Paul. Tell us a little bit about about Paul. Tell us a little bit about about Paul. He comes in, he's got a good resume. He comes in, he's got a good resume. He comes in, he's got a good resume. Well, isn't that stuff good? Like Well, isn't that stuff good? Like Well, isn't that stuff good? Like shouldn't he, you know, be thankful for shouldn't he, you know, be thankful for shouldn't he, you know, be thankful for it? How How do we How do we reckon this it? How How do we How do we reckon this it? How How do we How do we reckon this when we look at Paul what Paul's saying when we look at Paul what Paul's saying when we look at Paul what Paul's saying here? Well, he's saying it's not where here? Well, he's saying it's not where here? Well, he's saying it's not where his confidence is. It's not where his his confidence is. It's not where his his confidence is. It's not where his righteousness is. And so, you know, righteousness is. And so, you know, righteousness is. And so, you know, today that might be um I I went to a today that might be um I I went to a today that might be um I I went to a Christian college. I did a degree You Christian college. I did a degree You Christian college. I did a degree You know, I was raised in a Christian home. know, I was raised in a Christian home. know, I was raised in a Christian home. I have memorized entire books of the I have memorized entire books of the I have memorized entire books of the Bible. I went to seminary and I went to Bible. I went to seminary and I went to Bible. I went to seminary and I went to the right seminary and I, you know, the right seminary and I, you know, the right seminary and I, you know, serve in the church in all like we're serve in the church in all like we're serve in the church in all like we're we're putting our resume out there to we're putting our resume out there to we're putting our resume out there to say this is why you should This is the say this is why you should This is the say this is why you should This is the fruit you should see in my life. Instead fruit you should see in my life. Instead fruit you should see in my life. Instead of what scripture says to look for as of what scripture says to look for as of what scripture says to look for as fruit is love and joy and peace and fruit is love and joy and peace and fruit is love and joy and peace and patience and kindness and goodness and patience and kindness and goodness and patience and kindness and goodness and gentleness and faithfulness and I got gentleness and faithfulness and I got gentleness and faithfulness and I got those in the wrong order and those in the wrong order and those in the wrong order and self-control. And you know, this idea self-control. And you know, this idea self-control. And you know, this idea that that we're trying to say you should that that we're trying to say you should that that we're trying to say you should respect me. You should think highly of respect me. You should think highly of respect me. You should think highly of me. So, first of all, that's the goal, me. So, first of all, that's the goal, me. So, first of all, that's the goal, right? Think highly of me because of right? Think highly of me because of right? Think highly of me because of these things. And that it's based in these things. And that it's based in these things. And that it's based in something other than something other than something other than um what scripture actually says is the um what scripture actually says is the um what scripture actually says is the fruit of the of the work of the spirit fruit of the of the work of the spirit fruit of the of the work of the spirit in in our lives. And so, Paul, you know, in in our lives. And so, Paul, you know, in in our lives. And so, Paul, you know, he decides not to trust in these things, he decides not to trust in these things, he decides not to trust in these things, his religious pedigree. But but what are

his religious pedigree. But but what are his religious pedigree. But but what are some ways that some ways that some ways that like we kind of hang on to like we kind of hang on to like we kind of hang on to um this pedigree, if you will. You know, um this pedigree, if you will. You know, um this pedigree, if you will. You know, I think about um I think about um I think about um people who just cling to, "Well, I was people who just cling to, "Well, I was people who just cling to, "Well, I was baptized, baptized, baptized, you know, in the you know, in the you know, in the My name is on a brick in the church My name is on a brick in the church My name is on a brick in the church because I gave a certain amount of because I gave a certain amount of because I gave a certain amount of money. Like of course I am I am a highly money. Like of course I am I am a highly money. Like of course I am I am a highly esteemed person in this church because esteemed person in this church because esteemed person in this church because of those things. I was a founding of those things. I was a founding of those things. I was a founding member." Like these are all things that member." Like these are all things that member." Like these are all things that we can really um we can really um we can really um you know, put our confidence in rather you know, put our confidence in rather you know, put our confidence in rather than humbly humbling ourselves and we'll than humbly humbling ourselves and we'll than humbly humbling ourselves and we'll talk about that. talk about that. talk about that. Um humbling ourselves and putting our Um humbling ourselves and putting our Um humbling ourselves and putting our confidence in the work of Christ. Like confidence in the work of Christ. Like confidence in the work of Christ. Like that's where our confidence needs to be. that's where our confidence needs to be. that's where our confidence needs to be. So, how are you seeing it today? I think So, how are you seeing it today? I think So, how are you seeing it today? I think that I I guess where I'm kind of leading that I I guess where I'm kind of leading that I I guess where I'm kind of leading with that question is this idea of of with that question is this idea of of with that question is this idea of of tribalism that we're seeing is so tribalism that we're seeing is so tribalism that we're seeing is so prevalent right now. And so, how are prevalent right now. And so, how are prevalent right now. And so, how are marks of righteousness tied up in marks of righteousness tied up in marks of righteousness tied up in tribalism among believers?

tribalism among believers? tribalism among believers? Yeah, I mean, I think I think this is Yeah, I mean, I think I think this is Yeah, I mean, I think I think this is um um um Oh, I always hate to say unique time in Oh, I always hate to say unique time in Oh, I always hate to say unique time in history of saying these things. No, no. history of saying these things. No, no. history of saying these things. No, no. These things have always been happening. These things have always been happening. These things have always been happening. I I want Maybe it's exposed more because I I want Maybe it's exposed more because I I want Maybe it's exposed more because of the public nature of what different of the public nature of what different of the public nature of what different people believe, but it's just people believe, but it's just people believe, but it's just interesting when you go on Twitter or interesting when you go on Twitter or interesting when you go on Twitter or even now Instagram. I feel like even now Instagram. I feel like even now Instagram. I feel like Instagram's getting politicized now. Um Instagram's getting politicized now. Um Instagram's getting politicized now. Um or Facebook. And there really is this or Facebook. And there really is this or Facebook. And there really is this pile-on effect. And it becomes, "Well, I pile-on effect. And it becomes, "Well, I pile-on effect. And it becomes, "Well, I heard so-and-so said this and I heard heard so-and-so said this and I heard heard so-and-so said this and I heard so-and-so said this." So, we become so-and-so said this." So, we become so-and-so said this." So, we become tribes. I mean, it's so much like tribes. I mean, it's so much like tribes. I mean, it's so much like Corinthians, right? Where I follow Corinthians, right? Where I follow Corinthians, right? Where I follow Apollos and I follow Paul. I mean, we're Apollos and I follow Paul. I mean, we're Apollos and I follow Paul. I mean, we're we're seeing that lived out and it's we're seeing that lived out and it's we're seeing that lived out and it's almost like, "No, no. almost like, "No, no. almost like, "No, no. I am righteous because my view aligns I am righteous because my view aligns I am righteous because my view aligns with X person. Um you're unrighteous cuz with X person. Um you're unrighteous cuz with X person. Um you're unrighteous cuz you're saying something that that you're saying something that that you're saying something that that person's saying who is completely person's saying who is completely person's saying who is completely unorthodox in other ways or or whatever, unorthodox in other ways or or whatever, unorthodox in other ways or or whatever, you know? I mean, there's just this you know? I mean, there's just this you know? I mean, there's just this um I mean, tribalism is the best word.

um I mean, tribalism is the best word. um I mean, tribalism is the best word. This group-think mentality. Mhm. With This group-think mentality. Mhm. With This group-think mentality. Mhm. With out a lot of out a lot of out a lot of >> all the boxes. You have to tick all the >> all the boxes. You have to tick all the >> all the boxes. You have to tick all the boxes. Yes. Yes, without a lot of boxes. Yes. Yes, without a lot of boxes. Yes. Yes, without a lot of uh a lot of space to even consider. And uh a lot of space to even consider. And uh a lot of space to even consider. And I'm talk I'm not talking about things I'm talk I'm not talking about things I'm talk I'm not talking about things that are clear in scripture. Okay, when that are clear in scripture. Okay, when that are clear in scripture. Okay, when we're having this conversation, let's we're having this conversation, let's we're having this conversation, let's just, you know, let's just make sure just, you know, let's just make sure just, you know, let's just make sure we're saying there are things that are we're saying there are things that are we're saying there are things that are clear in scripture. Um clear in scripture. Um clear in scripture. Um Yeah, [snorts] I'm tribal on that, okay? Yeah, [snorts] I'm tribal on that, okay? Yeah, [snorts] I'm tribal on that, okay? I'm like full in. I'm like full in. I'm like full in. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Primary issues. Yes. >> Primary issues. Yes. >> Primary issues. Yes. >> I'm like, "Obey. Obey." Obey you. >> I'm like, "Obey. Obey." Obey you. >> I'm like, "Obey. Obey." Obey you. Following Jesus will always be always be Following Jesus will always be always be Following Jesus will always be always be better than walking in opposition to his better than walking in opposition to his better than walking in opposition to his ways. You know, so that's not what we're ways. You know, so that's not what we're ways. You know, so that's not what we're talking about. But there are clearly, talking about. But there are clearly, talking about. But there are clearly, you know, decisions that you're going to you know, decisions that you're going to you know, decisions that you're going to make in your parenting. There are make in your parenting. There are make in your parenting. There are clearly decisions you're going to make clearly decisions you're going to make clearly decisions you're going to make um even about what you spend your money um even about what you spend your money um even about what you spend your money on. on. on. I mean, you know, we could really see it I mean, you know, we could really see it I mean, you know, we could really see it as a mark of righteousness. I never take as a mark of righteousness. I never take as a mark of righteousness. I never take a vacation. Uh-huh. Why would I spend a vacation. Uh-huh. Why would I spend a vacation. Uh-huh. Why would I spend money on a vacation? Like so, I mean, money on a vacation? Like so, I mean, money on a vacation? Like so, I mean, there are just everyone has them and there are just everyone has them and there are just everyone has them and [clears throat] every group has them.

[clears throat] every group has them. [clears throat] every group has them. Everyone has them. That's exactly it. Everyone has them. That's exactly it. Everyone has them. That's exactly it. That's good. That's good. That's good. Yeah, and I think getting outside and Yeah, and I think getting outside and Yeah, and I think getting outside and really asking ourselves some hard really asking ourselves some hard really asking ourselves some hard questions is really tough to do. And questions is really tough to do. And questions is really tough to do. And that's even as we prepared for this what that's even as we prepared for this what that's even as we prepared for this what I had to step back and say, "Whoof. I had to step back and say, "Whoof. I had to step back and say, "Whoof. Okay, I got to really think through um Okay, I got to really think through um Okay, I got to really think through um what where am I tempted to do this?" what where am I tempted to do this?" what where am I tempted to do this?" Now, in the graciousness and kindness of Now, in the graciousness and kindness of Now, in the graciousness and kindness of the Lord the Lord the Lord typically where I'm tempted to do this, typically where I'm tempted to do this, typically where I'm tempted to do this, he allows me to fall flat on my face and he allows me to fall flat on my face and he allows me to fall flat on my face and be unable to live up to my own be unable to live up to my own be unable to live up to my own righteous standard or whatever. You righteous standard or whatever. You righteous standard or whatever. You know, or he just exposes how silly it know, or he just exposes how silly it know, or he just exposes how silly it is. is. is. Um and that is his grace to us. Um and that is his grace to us. Um and that is his grace to us. Actually, that is his complete and utter Actually, that is his complete and utter Actually, that is his complete and utter grace to us. Um but we all probably grace to us. Um but we all probably grace to us. Um but we all probably recognize this in our hearts. So, recognize this in our hearts. So, recognize this in our hearts. So, Courtney, Courtney, Courtney, when we see it, when we're like, "Oh my when we see it, when we're like, "Oh my when we see it, when we're like, "Oh my goodness. I am totally judging these goodness. I am totally judging these goodness. I am totally judging these people because they show up 5 minutes people because they show up 5 minutes people because they show up 5 minutes late to everything." Mhm. late to everything." Mhm. late to everything." Mhm. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Or whatever. >> Or whatever. >> Or whatever. What do we do what What do we do in our What do we do what What do we do in our What do we do what What do we do in our own hearts when we see that reaction?

own hearts when we see that reaction? own hearts when we see that reaction? Like how can we respond rightly when we Like how can we respond rightly when we Like how can we respond rightly when we start to sniff it out in our own hearts? start to sniff it out in our own hearts? start to sniff it out in our own hearts? Well, I think there's a few things. I Well, I think there's a few things. I Well, I think there's a few things. I think first of all, remembering the think first of all, remembering the think first of all, remembering the truth of the gospel. And I mean, I just truth of the gospel. And I mean, I just truth of the gospel. And I mean, I just mean going through the facts of the mean going through the facts of the mean going through the facts of the gospel that it is the righteousness of gospel that it is the righteousness of gospel that it is the righteousness of Christ alone that I have I am completely Christ alone that I have I am completely Christ alone that I have I am completely bankrupt. I have none and without this bankrupt. I have none and without this bankrupt. I have none and without this outside righteousness being given to me, outside righteousness being given to me, outside righteousness being given to me, I am I am lost and nothing. And it has I am I am lost and nothing. And it has I am I am lost and nothing. And it has been given and it is only by faith, been given and it is only by faith, been given and it is only by faith, which is also a gift. Like Like I add which is also a gift. Like Like I add which is also a gift. Like Like I add nothing to my salvation except the sin nothing to my salvation except the sin nothing to my salvation except the sin that necessitates it. I don't know who that necessitates it. I don't know who that necessitates it. I don't know who said that first, but I love that. Like I said that first, but I love that. Like I said that first, but I love that. Like I bring nothing to the table except moral bring nothing to the table except moral bring nothing to the table except moral bankruptcy, sin. So, it is I remind bankruptcy, sin. So, it is I remind bankruptcy, sin. So, it is I remind myself of the gift. And then that allows myself of the gift. And then that allows myself of the gift. And then that allows me to humble myself. And I'm saying it me to humble myself. And I'm saying it me to humble myself. And I'm saying it that way on purpose because I find that way on purpose because I find that way on purpose because I find myself praying all the time. I'll be myself praying all the time. I'll be myself praying all the time. I'll be like, "Lord, humble me." And then I'm like, "Lord, humble me." And then I'm like, "Lord, humble me." And then I'm like, "No, no, no. Let me humble like, "No, no, no. Let me humble like, "No, no, no. Let me humble myself." Like, I don't actually want the myself." Like, I don't actually want the myself." Like, I don't actually want the Lord to have to humble me. I want to do Lord to have to humble me. I want to do Lord to have to humble me. I want to do the work to humble myself because he the work to humble myself because he the work to humble myself because he will. Like, he will. And he he has. But will. Like, he will. And he he has. But will. Like, he will. And he he has. But but James 4 tells us to humble but James 4 tells us to humble but James 4 tells us to humble ourselves. And so, um ourselves. And so, um ourselves. And so, um so to do that intentionally and to look so to do that intentionally and to look so to do that intentionally and to look for areas to do the hard work to say, for areas to do the hard work to say, for areas to do the hard work to say, "Where do I Where do I feel morally "Where do I Where do I feel morally "Where do I Where do I feel morally superior? Where do I think this is a a superior? Where do I think this is a a superior? Where do I think this is a a better Christian way?" You know, I can better Christian way?" You know, I can better Christian way?" You know, I can think about denominations. I I remember

think about denominations. I I remember think about denominations. I I remember a friend telling me one time how she had a friend telling me one time how she had a friend telling me one time how she had progressed. And she was talking about progressed. And she was talking about progressed. And she was talking about She had moved through three She had moved through three She had moved through three denominations. And she saw it as denominations. And she saw it as denominations. And she saw it as progression. And I just, you know, we progression. And I just, you know, we progression. And I just, you know, we had a little conversation, right then had a little conversation, right then had a little conversation, right then and there about like, "Wait a minute. and there about like, "Wait a minute. and there about like, "Wait a minute. Like, that we have to be really careful Like, that we have to be really careful Like, that we have to be really careful with that." Or the right worship style. with that." Or the right worship style. with that." Or the right worship style. And you know, you hear that on all these And you know, you hear that on all these And you know, you hear that on all these these, um, you hear it on every side. these, um, you hear it on every side. these, um, you hear it on every side. And every side thinks they're they're And every side thinks they're they're And every side thinks they're they're right. And so, right. And so, right. And so, you know, I think it's reminding you know, I think it's reminding you know, I think it's reminding ourselves too that being right is not a ourselves too that being right is not a ourselves too that being right is not a Christian virtue. Christian virtue. Christian virtue. And we cling to it like it is. And so, I And we cling to it like it is. And so, I And we cling to it like it is. And so, I would just say that when those things would just say that when those things would just say that when those things rear their ugly head, the the rear their ugly head, the the rear their ugly head, the the self-righteousness, the the marks of self-righteousness, the the marks of self-righteousness, the the marks of righteousness, righteousness, righteousness, um um um recognize them. Um, speak the gospel recognize them. Um, speak the gospel recognize them. Um, speak the gospel truth back to them. And then humble truth back to them. And then humble truth back to them. And then humble yourself in that. Um, and and remind yourself in that. Um, and and remind yourself in that. Um, and and remind yourself yourself yourself that that there is no one righteous, no, that that there is no one righteous, no, that that there is no one righteous, no, not one. And if God had not revealed his not one. And if God had not revealed his not one. And if God had not revealed his righteousness through Christ, we would righteousness through Christ, we would righteousness through Christ, we would all be lost forever. And so, um, that's all be lost forever. And so, um, that's all be lost forever. And so, um, that's that's a humbling thing to to remember.

that's a humbling thing to to remember. that's a humbling thing to to remember. Um, let's Okay, I want to take a break Um, let's Okay, I want to take a break Um, let's Okay, I want to take a break because I want to take a break and hear because I want to take a break and hear because I want to take a break and hear hear a word from our sponsors. But then hear a word from our sponsors. But then hear a word from our sponsors. But then when we come back, you had started when we come back, you had started when we come back, you had started alluding to this thing about like what alluding to this thing about like what alluding to this thing about like what issues we actually do uh need to be kind issues we actually do uh need to be kind issues we actually do uh need to be kind of tribal on. And I want to come back of tribal on. And I want to come back of tribal on. And I want to come back and talk about these things after our and talk about these things after our and talk about these things after our break. break. break. Welcome back um for this discussion that Welcome back um for this discussion that Welcome back um for this discussion that we've been having on marks of we've been having on marks of we've been having on marks of righteousness. So, Courtney, as we've righteousness. So, Courtney, as we've righteousness. So, Courtney, as we've been talking and as we're wrestling with been talking and as we're wrestling with been talking and as we're wrestling with these things, here's the here's the these things, here's the here's the these things, here's the here's the reality before us. Righteousness is a reality before us. Righteousness is a reality before us. Righteousness is a really good thing. really good thing. really good thing. Um, the desire to have a life I mean, I Um, the desire to have a life I mean, I Um, the desire to have a life I mean, I pray it all the time. Lord, let me walk pray it all the time. Lord, let me walk pray it all the time. Lord, let me walk in a manner um worthy of the gospel. in a manner um worthy of the gospel. in a manner um worthy of the gospel. Like, and Paul says, you know, walk in a Like, and Paul says, you know, walk in a Like, and Paul says, you know, walk in a manner worthy of the gospel. He says it manner worthy of the gospel. He says it manner worthy of the gospel. He says it all the time. Um, and so, this leads to all the time. Um, and so, this leads to all the time. Um, and so, this leads to this question. There is a right way to this question. There is a right way to this question. There is a right way to live out the Christian life. live out the Christian life. live out the Christian life. Um Um Um And then, there are secondary issues. And then, there are secondary issues. And then, there are secondary issues. So, that we as theologians, you know, we So, that we as theologians, you know, we So, that we as theologians, you know, we call these primary issues and secondary call these primary issues and secondary call these primary issues and secondary issues of the faith. Um, and so, can you issues of the faith. Um, and so, can you issues of the faith. Um, and so, can you give us a little explainer on how those give us a little explainer on how those give us a little explainer on how those help us discern help us discern help us discern um where it is right for us to like call um where it is right for us to like call um where it is right for us to like call a friend out on behavior. Uh you know, a friend out on behavior. Uh you know, a friend out on behavior. Uh you know, and where it's maybe a place to say, and where it's maybe a place to say, and where it's maybe a place to say, "Okay, um this is a weaker brother, "Okay, um this is a weaker brother, "Okay, um this is a weaker brother, weaker sister issue." You know, so there weaker sister issue." You know, so there weaker sister issue." You know, so there are there are issues that we really do are there are issues that we really do are there are issues that we really do have to say, um

have to say, um have to say, um "This is an issue of obedience to the "This is an issue of obedience to the "This is an issue of obedience to the Lord that he calls us to in the word. Lord that he calls us to in the word. Lord that he calls us to in the word. Some issues are just, 'Hey, as I have Some issues are just, 'Hey, as I have Some issues are just, 'Hey, as I have prayed about this, this is where I feel prayed about this, this is where I feel prayed about this, this is where I feel how I feel led to live my life. I'm how I feel led to live my life. I'm how I feel led to live my life. I'm going to get up at 5:30 every morning going to get up at 5:30 every morning going to get up at 5:30 every morning and read my Bible. and read my Bible. and read my Bible. I I'm not going to confront you because I I'm not going to confront you because I I'm not going to confront you because you're not doing that same behavior. So, you're not doing that same behavior. So, you're not doing that same behavior. So, how do we discern what's what um as we how do we discern what's what um as we how do we discern what's what um as we walk in life?" Yeah, I think that, you walk in life?" Yeah, I think that, you walk in life?" Yeah, I think that, you know, even going back to your um know, even going back to your um know, even going back to your um comments about tribalism and where we comments about tribalism and where we comments about tribalism and where we divide from other believers and where we divide from other believers and where we divide from other believers and where we are united, I think it is really are united, I think it is really are united, I think it is really important to understand like that there important to understand like that there important to understand like that there is this theological triage. There are is this theological triage. There are is this theological triage. There are these different layers and levels of of these different layers and levels of of these different layers and levels of of what we absolutely have to be united on what we absolutely have to be united on what we absolutely have to be united on and what it's okay to have disagreement and what it's okay to have disagreement and what it's okay to have disagreement over. And so, you know, we call them over. And so, you know, we call them over. And so, you know, we call them primary, secondary, and tertiary. First, primary, secondary, and tertiary. First, primary, secondary, and tertiary. First, second, and third place. And so, primary second, and third place. And so, primary second, and third place. And so, primary issues are issues that if somebody does issues are issues that if somebody does issues are issues that if somebody does not agree with you on that issue, then not agree with you on that issue, then not agree with you on that issue, then you actually would not extend the right you actually would not extend the right you actually would not extend the right hand of fellowship or you would not hand of fellowship or you would not hand of fellowship or you would not count them as a as a fellow brother or count them as a as a fellow brother or count them as a as a fellow brother or sister in Christ. And so, those are sister in Christ. And so, those are sister in Christ. And so, those are things that salvation is by grace alone, things that salvation is by grace alone, things that salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, that the Bible is the inherent, that the Bible is the inherent, that the Bible is the inherent, infallible, inspired word of God, that infallible, inspired word of God, that infallible, inspired word of God, that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that Jesus was fully man and fully God, that he was that the virgin birth happened, he was that the virgin birth happened, he was that the virgin birth happened, that the resurrection bodily that the resurrection bodily that the resurrection bodily resurrection from the dead happened, resurrection from the dead happened, resurrection from the dead happened, that God exists one God in three that God exists one God in three that God exists one God in three persons, you know, the Trinity. These

persons, you know, the Trinity. These persons, you know, the Trinity. These are things that are things that are things that that if somebody says, "No, I deny that if somebody says, "No, I deny that if somebody says, "No, I deny that," then you actually say, "Then I I that," then you actually say, "Then I I that," then you actually say, "Then I I do not count you as a brother or sister do not count you as a brother or sister do not count you as a brother or sister in the faith." And I've heard some I've in the faith." And I've heard some I've in the faith." And I've heard some I've heard people talk about this. These are heard people talk about this. These are heard people talk about this. These are issues you die for. Like, these are issues you die for. Like, these are issues you die for. Like, these are these are primary. They are of first these are primary. They are of first these are primary. They are of first importance. Secondary issues are things importance. Secondary issues are things importance. Secondary issues are things that you don't die for, but you can that you don't die for, but you can that you don't die for, but you can debate them. And you can hold these debate them. And you can hold these debate them. And you can hold these convictions deeply. So, they're convictions deeply. So, they're convictions deeply. So, they're important, but they are not necessary to important, but they are not necessary to important, but they are not necessary to um to count somebody as a fellow um to count somebody as a fellow um to count somebody as a fellow believer. So, we can disagree on what we believer. So, we can disagree on what we believer. So, we can disagree on what we call eschatology or the time that Jesus call eschatology or the time that Jesus call eschatology or the time that Jesus is going to return. Um, we can disagree is going to return. Um, we can disagree is going to return. Um, we can disagree on when in when in someone's faith on when in when in someone's faith on when in when in someone's faith should they be baptized. You know, do should they be baptized. You know, do should they be baptized. You know, do you believe in infant baptism or do you you believe in infant baptism or do you you believe in infant baptism or do you wait for a profession of faith? We can wait for a profession of faith? We can wait for a profession of faith? We can disagree on the method of baptism, disagree on the method of baptism, disagree on the method of baptism, immersion or sprinkling. So, the amount immersion or sprinkling. So, the amount immersion or sprinkling. So, the amount of water that's used. We can disagree on of water that's used. We can disagree on of water that's used. We can disagree on how long it took God to create the how long it took God to create the how long it took God to create the world. I mean, there are all these world. I mean, there are all these world. I mean, there are all these things, how we use the Sabbath. We don't things, how we use the Sabbath. We don't things, how we use the Sabbath. We don't have to agree on all of those things.

have to agree on all of those things. have to agree on all of those things. But you don't count somebody that But you don't count somebody that But you don't count somebody that disagrees as not a brother or sister in disagrees as not a brother or sister in disagrees as not a brother or sister in the faith. And then, I think what's so the faith. And then, I think what's so the faith. And then, I think what's so ironic right now is there are these ironic right now is there are these ironic right now is there are these third place issues. And these are So, if third place issues. And these are So, if third place issues. And these are So, if we die for primary issues, if we debate we die for primary issues, if we debate we die for primary issues, if we debate secondary issues, tertiary issues, we secondary issues, tertiary issues, we secondary issues, tertiary issues, we just discuss. Like, they're not they're just discuss. Like, they're not they're just discuss. Like, they're not they're not divisive at all. In fact, I don't not divisive at all. In fact, I don't not divisive at all. In fact, I don't want all my friends to agree with me on want all my friends to agree with me on want all my friends to agree with me on these. But these are actually the areas these. But these are actually the areas these. But these are actually the areas that we are we are dividing the most that we are we are dividing the most that we are we are dividing the most over. And they're some of the things over. And they're some of the things over. And they're some of the things we've talked about. Like, we've talked about. Like, we've talked about. Like, you know, how how clean you eat, uh how you know, how how clean you eat, uh how you know, how how clean you eat, uh how you decide to go through childbirth, the you decide to go through childbirth, the you decide to go through childbirth, the style of worship. These are Like, have style of worship. These are Like, have style of worship. These are Like, have your opinions on these things. But my your opinions on these things. But my your opinions on these things. But my word, your whole friend group and your word, your whole friend group and your word, your whole friend group and your whole church does not need to agree with whole church does not need to agree with whole church does not need to agree with you on these things. These are tertiary. you on these things. These are tertiary. you on these things. These are tertiary. So, so I think even just going through So, so I think even just going through So, so I think even just going through and recognizing and talk and knowing and recognizing and talk and knowing and recognizing and talk and knowing knowing the place of importance in this. knowing the place of importance in this. knowing the place of importance in this. Um, but I think what's interesting is we Um, but I think what's interesting is we Um, but I think what's interesting is we take these tertiary issues and they're take these tertiary issues and they're take these tertiary issues and they're the things that become the things that become the things that become marks of righteousness. And so, along marks of righteousness. And so, along marks of righteousness. And so, along those lines, you've written a great book those lines, you've written a great book those lines, you've written a great book on parenting. And I think parenting is on parenting. And I think parenting is on parenting. And I think parenting is one of these areas absolutely tertiary.

one of these areas absolutely tertiary. one of these areas absolutely tertiary. Like, absolutely There are so many Like, absolutely There are so many Like, absolutely There are so many different ways to to parent and to, you different ways to to parent and to, you different ways to to parent and to, you know, discipline and to think about like know, discipline and to think about like know, discipline and to think about like how you have your children eat or how you have your children eat or how you have your children eat or educate or all these. But but in educate or all these. But but in educate or all these. But but in parenting, we can be really divided on parenting, we can be really divided on parenting, we can be really divided on that. And it's really tempting to that. And it's really tempting to that. And it's really tempting to kind of trust in our own righteousness. kind of trust in our own righteousness. kind of trust in our own righteousness. Like, if we do it right, then our kids Like, if we do it right, then our kids Like, if we do it right, then our kids are going to turn out well. And if they are going to turn out well. And if they are going to turn out well. And if they don't turn out well, then it's our fault don't turn out well, then it's our fault don't turn out well, then it's our fault and we really, you know, messed it up. and we really, you know, messed it up. and we really, you know, messed it up. Um, I just think about how when my kids Um, I just think about how when my kids Um, I just think about how when my kids were little, I could fluctuate between were little, I could fluctuate between were little, I could fluctuate between shame and pride within like less than a shame and pride within like less than a shame and pride within like less than a second, depending on what was happening. second, depending on what was happening. second, depending on what was happening. So, what's What do you see in parenting So, what's What do you see in parenting So, what's What do you see in parenting and the marks of righteousness? And then and the marks of righteousness? And then and the marks of righteousness? And then what's the antidote? And and it is what's the antidote? And and it is what's the antidote? And and it is interesting even as I think through your interesting even as I think through your interesting even as I think through your three categories. There are some primary three categories. There are some primary three categories. There are some primary things for parents, right? You are things for parents, right? You are things for parents, right? You are commanded commanded commanded to raise your to have the his word on to raise your to have the his word on to raise your to have the his word on your heart and to teach these truths to your heart and to teach these truths to your heart and to teach these truths to your children. So, we would say, "Hey, your children. So, we would say, "Hey, your children. So, we would say, "Hey, that is part of your God-given role as a that is part of your God-given role as a that is part of your God-given role as a parent is to say, 'Jesus loves you.'" parent is to say, 'Jesus loves you.'" parent is to say, 'Jesus loves you.'" You know, I mean, there there are there You know, I mean, there there are there You know, I mean, there there are there there are definitely things we're going there are definitely things we're going there are definitely things we're going to say are really important. And then to say are really important. And then to say are really important. And then there are these secondary issues like, there are these secondary issues like, there are these secondary issues like, "Are you going to baptize your child? Or "Are you going to baptize your child? Or "Are you going to baptize your child? Or are you not going to baptize your are you not going to baptize your are you not going to baptize your child?" But we want to say, you know, as child?" But we want to say, you know, as child?" But we want to say, you know, as a parent, you have a responsibility to a parent, you have a responsibility to a parent, you have a responsibility to take your kids church. Yeah, that's a take your kids church. Yeah, that's a take your kids church. Yeah, that's a that's a responsibility God has given by that's a responsibility God has given by that's a responsibility God has given by placing that child in your home um to

placing that child in your home um to placing that child in your home um to to to do some of, you know, to to follow to to do some of, you know, to to follow to to do some of, you know, to to follow him. You you're following God and you're him. You you're following God and you're him. You you're following God and you're bringing your children along in that. bringing your children along in that. bringing your children along in that. Um, but then we have these secondary Um, but then we have these secondary Um, but then we have these secondary issues um again that are important, just issues um again that are important, just issues um again that are important, just like you said. But I think you're like you said. But I think you're like you said. But I think you're exactly right. We live in these tertiary exactly right. We live in these tertiary exactly right. We live in these tertiary issues a lot of times as parents. And it issues a lot of times as parents. And it issues a lot of times as parents. And it starts, as you said, in pregnancy. What starts, as you said, in pregnancy. What starts, as you said, in pregnancy. What are the foods I'm eating in pregnancy? are the foods I'm eating in pregnancy? are the foods I'm eating in pregnancy? You know, um how big is my child You know, um how big is my child You know, um how big is my child measuring? I mean, goodness, how much measuring? I mean, goodness, how much measuring? I mean, goodness, how much amniotic fluid do I have? I mean, we can amniotic fluid do I have? I mean, we can amniotic fluid do I have? I mean, we can just get all wrapped up in pride that my just get all wrapped up in pride that my just get all wrapped up in pride that my child was in the 90th percentile of like child was in the 90th percentile of like child was in the 90th percentile of like height or something. Like, height or something. Like, height or something. Like, that's good. Like, what in the world? that's good. Like, what in the world? that's good. Like, what in the world? Exactly. And we can, Exactly. And we can, Exactly. And we can, you know, again, take pride in how and you know, again, take pride in how and you know, again, take pride in how and where and when we gave birth. I mean, it where and when we gave birth. I mean, it where and when we gave birth. I mean, it was 2:00 a.m. or it was I don't know. was 2:00 a.m. or it was I don't know. was 2:00 a.m. or it was I don't know. It's When you really step back from it, It's When you really step back from it, It's When you really step back from it, it's so silly a lot of the things with it's so silly a lot of the things with it's so silly a lot of the things with parenting. But it can really divide parenting. But it can really divide parenting. But it can really divide fellowship among women. I mean, I I fellowship among women. I mean, I I fellowship among women. I mean, I I These things are These things are These things are you know, whether it's sleep training.

you know, whether it's sleep training. you know, whether it's sleep training. Goodness gracious, that was a big thing Goodness gracious, that was a big thing Goodness gracious, that was a big thing in in my mothering season, you know, Um, in in my mothering season, you know, Um, in in my mothering season, you know, Um, whether it's whether it's whether it's how you will feed your child starting how you will feed your child starting how you will feed your child starting from birth, breastfeeding or bottle from birth, breastfeeding or bottle from birth, breastfeeding or bottle feeding. feeding. feeding. I mean, these things and we can Here's I mean, these things and we can Here's I mean, these things and we can Here's the Here's what's a little bit the Here's what's a little bit the Here's what's a little bit dangerous. We can put a spiritual veneer dangerous. We can put a spiritual veneer dangerous. We can put a spiritual veneer on it. on it. on it. Well, you know, God made me Mhm. as a Well, you know, God made me Mhm. as a Well, you know, God made me Mhm. as a person to be able to breastfeed, person to be able to breastfeed, person to be able to breastfeed, therefore it must be therefore it must be therefore it must be his way of doing it. his way of doing it. his way of doing it. Like so it it becomes spiritualized and Like so it it becomes spiritualized and Like so it it becomes spiritualized and I think that's where we get really I think that's where we get really I think that's where we get really dangerous. When we kind of add a little dangerous. When we kind of add a little dangerous. When we kind of add a little well, I mean, you know, well, I mean, you know, well, I mean, you know, like I know there are two ways, but let like I know there are two ways, but let like I know there are two ways, but let me tell you why my way is a little more me tell you why my way is a little more me tell you why my way is a little more righteous. righteous. righteous. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So true. Yeah, I mean, so you have >> So true. Yeah, I mean, so you have >> So true. Yeah, I mean, so you have grandkids, so you're seeing it second grandkids, so you're seeing it second grandkids, so you're seeing it second generation. Like how Tell me a little generation. Like how Tell me a little generation. Like how Tell me a little bit about the view from that bit about the view from that bit about the view from that perspective, you know, cuz that's a perspective, you know, cuz that's a perspective, you know, cuz that's a little bit different. Well, I think that little bit different. Well, I think that little bit different. Well, I think that this is, you know, I'd be interested to this is, you know, I'd be interested to this is, you know, I'd be interested to know if my if my sons and know if my if my sons and know if my if my sons and daughter-in-laws, who are the ones with daughter-in-laws, who are the ones with daughter-in-laws, who are the ones with the grandkids, would agree with this, the grandkids, would agree with this, the grandkids, would agree with this, but it's really interesting because I but it's really interesting because I but it's really interesting because I did hold some really strong convictions did hold some really strong convictions did hold some really strong convictions about parenting. And oh my word, they about parenting. And oh my word, they about parenting. And oh my word, they were absolutely marks of righteousness.

were absolutely marks of righteousness. were absolutely marks of righteousness. But I do think that my goal is to be But I do think that my goal is to be But I do think that my goal is to be is to recognize the non-negotiables and is to recognize the non-negotiables and is to recognize the non-negotiables and to recognize the tertiary issues and to to recognize the tertiary issues and to to recognize the tertiary issues and to rejoice in rejoice in rejoice in in the fact that the Lord is at work and in the fact that the Lord is at work and in the fact that the Lord is at work and it doesn't have to be they can make it doesn't have to be they can make it doesn't have to be they can make decisions different than me. decisions different than me. decisions different than me. And they are. They are. And that's like And they are. They are. And that's like And they are. They are. And that's like that's a good thing because what I that's a good thing because what I that's a good thing because what I realized then it actually humbles me realized then it actually humbles me realized then it actually humbles me because I think I've got pretty awesome because I think I've got pretty awesome because I think I've got pretty awesome kids and so it's easy to be like, well, kids and so it's easy to be like, well, kids and so it's easy to be like, well, that's because I, you know, did this and that's because I, you know, did this and that's because I, you know, did this and this and this as a parent, but it's not. this and this as a parent, but it's not. this and this as a parent, but it's not. It's the grace of God at every single It's the grace of God at every single It's the grace of God at every single moment. And so as I'm watching them make moment. And so as I'm watching them make moment. And so as I'm watching them make very different choices in some areas, very different choices in some areas, very different choices in some areas, then it's like, oh yeah, it's the grace then it's like, oh yeah, it's the grace then it's like, oh yeah, it's the grace of God for them, too. So it's a it's a of God for them, too. So it's a it's a of God for them, too. So it's a it's a humbling growing experience even from humbling growing experience even from humbling growing experience even from from the, you know, grandmother seat, from the, you know, grandmother seat, from the, you know, grandmother seat, which I love. It It just continues to which I love. It It just continues to which I love. It It just continues to kind of push these issues further down kind of push these issues further down kind of push these issues further down in my heart and it continues to reveal in my heart and it continues to reveal in my heart and it continues to reveal areas where I have marks of areas where I have marks of areas where I have marks of righteousness because I have to combat righteousness because I have to combat righteousness because I have to combat those.

those. those. Um Um Um at every step. at every step. at every step. >> Can I say something about that? I do you >> Can I say something about that? I do you >> Can I say something about that? I do you think that is why it is so wonderful to think that is why it is so wonderful to think that is why it is so wonderful to have a few women in your life who do have a few women in your life who do have a few women in your life who do have their children raised, like their have their children raised, like their have their children raised, like their adult children, to ask some of your adult children, to ask some of your adult children, to ask some of your young child parenting questions to? young child parenting questions to? young child parenting questions to? Because you have that perspective Because you have that perspective Because you have that perspective of being, you know, 30 years out from of being, you know, 30 years out from of being, you know, 30 years out from when you had when you had when you had a baby, so to speak, and to be able to a baby, so to speak, and to be able to a baby, so to speak, and to be able to just um just um just um say, "Hey, say, "Hey, say, "Hey, you know, I thought this was really you know, I thought this was really you know, I thought this was really important in the moment important in the moment important in the moment and now I can step back from it and say, and now I can step back from it and say, and now I can step back from it and say, yeah, you really need to pray about yeah, you really need to pray about yeah, you really need to pray about that. You need to think about that. I that. You need to think about that. I that. You need to think about that. I mean, cuz we would both say, hey, mean, cuz we would both say, hey, mean, cuz we would both say, hey, educational choices for your kids really educational choices for your kids really educational choices for your kids really matter. You I mean, you should really matter. You I mean, you should really matter. You I mean, you should really think about it. You You can't take that think about it. You You can't take that think about it. You You can't take that lightly and just say, oh, it doesn't lightly and just say, oh, it doesn't lightly and just say, oh, it doesn't really matter. It does matter. You know, really matter. It does matter. You know, really matter. It does matter. You know, it does and we need to consider it well, it does and we need to consider it well, it does and we need to consider it well, be prayerful about it, seek But But we be prayerful about it, seek But But we be prayerful about it, seek But But we all have different circumstances. We all all have different circumstances. We all all have different circumstances. We all have different callings in life at have different callings in life at have different callings in life at different points and and and we all have different points and and and we all have different points and and and we all have different really different even different really different even different really different even educational opportunities and educational opportunities and educational opportunities and situations. So on something like that, I situations. So on something like that, I situations. So on something like that, I just think it's so helpful to have some just think it's so helpful to have some just think it's so helpful to have some older voices in our lives. But let me older voices in our lives. But let me older voices in our lives. But let me also say this cuz also say this cuz also say this cuz sometimes what I I realize when I say sometimes what I I realize when I say sometimes what I I realize when I say older voices, older voices, older voices, let me say older sanctified voices who let me say older sanctified voices who let me say older sanctified voices who have been in the world, who have allowed

have been in the world, who have allowed have been in the world, who have allowed the Lord to show them. Because I will the Lord to show them. Because I will the Lord to show them. Because I will tell you, tell you, tell you, I might get in trouble for this. I might get in trouble for this. I might get in trouble for this. Sometimes older voices in the church can Sometimes older voices in the church can Sometimes older voices in the church can just get more hardened in their views of just get more hardened in their views of just get more hardened in their views of self-righteousness. self-righteousness. self-righteousness. And they can be the very judgmental. If And they can be the very judgmental. If And they can be the very judgmental. If If If we are not being constantly If If we are not being constantly If If we are not being constantly humbled by our, you know, by the Lord humbled by our, you know, by the Lord humbled by our, you know, by the Lord and in our time in the world and and in our time in the world and and in our time in the world and remembering remembering remembering it is by grace alone, through faith it is by grace alone, through faith it is by grace alone, through faith alone, you know, if if we're not doing alone, you know, if if we're not doing alone, you know, if if we're not doing that work and you know, if we're not that work and you know, if we're not that work and you know, if we're not really open to correction and regularly really open to correction and regularly really open to correction and regularly confessing and regularly repenting, all confessing and regularly repenting, all confessing and regularly repenting, all of that's what's softening that soil to of that's what's softening that soil to of that's what's softening that soil to help us remember help us remember help us remember what is really, you know, in these what is really, you know, in these what is really, you know, in these primary issues and others. We need those primary issues and others. We need those primary issues and others. We need those women in the church calling back to women in the church calling back to women in the church calling back to younger women. And so I do want to say, younger women. And so I do want to say, younger women. And so I do want to say, be wise about who where you're getting be wise about who where you're getting be wise about who where you're getting advice advice advice cuz I know there can be, cuz I know there can be, cuz I know there can be, you know, I mean, marks of righteousness you know, I mean, marks of righteousness you know, I mean, marks of righteousness doesn't end because, you know, we get doesn't end because, you know, we get doesn't end because, you know, we get gray hair.

gray hair. gray hair. Like Like Like Exactly. Well, and I think that that's a Exactly. Well, and I think that that's a Exactly. Well, and I think that that's a word any woman who's listening who is word any woman who's listening who is word any woman who's listening who is the older woman, which, you know, we all the older woman, which, you know, we all the older woman, which, you know, we all are. It does not know I was talking with are. It does not know I was talking with are. It does not know I was talking with a friend last night, you know, if you're a friend last night, you know, if you're a friend last night, you know, if you're in college, you're the older woman. in college, you're the older woman. in college, you're the older woman. You've got a high schooler. If you're in You've got a high schooler. If you're in You've got a high schooler. If you're in high school, or you can be the older high school, or you can be the older high school, or you can be the older woman cuz you can disciple a woman cuz you can disciple a woman cuz you can disciple a middle schooler. But what I mean like in middle schooler. But what I mean like in middle schooler. But what I mean like in this context is women whose children are this context is women whose children are this context is women whose children are raised. It's so easy to want to disciple raised. It's so easy to want to disciple raised. It's so easy to want to disciple people into our image and be like, well, people into our image and be like, well, people into our image and be like, well, this is what I did and you need to go this is what I did and you need to go this is what I did and you need to go and do likewise. And instead to get to and do likewise. And instead to get to and do likewise. And instead to get to the point that you can say, hey, I'll the point that you can say, hey, I'll the point that you can say, hey, I'll tell you what I did. tell you what I did. tell you what I did. It may or may not work for you. Like I It may or may not work for you. Like I It may or may not work for you. Like I don't mind I don't mind offering an don't mind I don't mind offering an don't mind I don't mind offering an example, but it's when it becomes example, but it's when it becomes example, but it's when it becomes prescriptive rather than descriptive prescriptive rather than descriptive prescriptive rather than descriptive that it becomes a mark of righteousness, that it becomes a mark of righteousness, that it becomes a mark of righteousness, right? This is what you must do. Um right? This is what you must do. Um right? This is what you must do. Um instead of thinking and, you know, I instead of thinking and, you know, I instead of thinking and, you know, I think it's so beautiful, too, as a think it's so beautiful, too, as a think it's so beautiful, too, as a grandmother. Like I learn so much from grandmother. Like I learn so much from grandmother. Like I learn so much from my children who have children and my children who have children and my children who have children and watching my daughter-in-laws raise their watching my daughter-in-laws raise their watching my daughter-in-laws raise their children, I'm just I marvel. I'm like, children, I'm just I marvel. I'm like, children, I'm just I marvel. I'm like, oh, I wish I had done it that way or I oh, I wish I had done it that way or I oh, I wish I had done it that way or I wish I had thought to do that. And it's wish I had thought to do that. And it's wish I had thought to do that. And it's just a, you know, it's a really just a, you know, it's a really just a, you know, it's a really beautiful thing to to look have the beautiful thing to to look have the beautiful thing to to look have the learning go both directions, for sure.

learning go both directions, for sure. learning go both directions, for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that's good. That's good. But I I do think that's one That's good. But I I do think that's one That's good. But I I do think that's one of those areas, parenting, where it's of those areas, parenting, where it's of those areas, parenting, where it's always good to step back and say, always good to step back and say, always good to step back and say, um um um am am I prideful in this or am I just am am I prideful in this or am I just am am I prideful in this or am I just bearing in this? You know, because I bearing in this? You know, because I bearing in this? You know, because I mean, mean, mean, both. Yeah, rather than to just pause both. Yeah, rather than to just pause both. Yeah, rather than to just pause and say, and say, and say, um um um and be prayerful and be prayerful and be prayerful rather than seeking the solutions in our rather than seeking the solutions in our rather than seeking the solutions in our in our flesh as as Paul would have said. in our flesh as as Paul would have said. in our flesh as as Paul would have said. And really, um I would I would And really, um I would I would And really, um I would I would encourage, yeah, this is why we have the encourage, yeah, this is why we have the encourage, yeah, this is why we have the church. We have one another to ask these church. We have one another to ask these church. We have one another to ask these questions to questions to questions to and to really seek one another. So, and to really seek one another. So, and to really seek one another. So, okay, let me ask this question. okay, let me ask this question. okay, let me ask this question. When it comes to this and we're in yeah, When it comes to this and we're in yeah, When it comes to this and we're in yeah, we're hanging out with our friends and we're hanging out with our friends and we're hanging out with our friends and maybe um maybe um maybe um these issues are coming up and we're these issues are coming up and we're these issues are coming up and we're hearing things said that maybe are hearing things said that maybe are hearing things said that maybe are taking a tertiary issue taking a tertiary issue taking a tertiary issue and we're hearing judgmental things and we're hearing judgmental things and we're hearing judgmental things being said about those who don't follow being said about those who don't follow being said about those who don't follow our tribe, so to speak. How do we engage our tribe, so to speak. How do we engage our tribe, so to speak. How do we engage with others? How How do we live this out with others? How How do we live this out with others? How How do we live this out practically practically practically um and engage well with people um um and engage well with people um um and engage well with people um when we, you know, you know, you're when we, you know, you know, you're when we, you know, you know, you're sitting around with a group of eight sitting around with a group of eight sitting around with a group of eight women over dinner and you hear these women over dinner and you hear these women over dinner and you hear these things being said. Do you jump in? Do things being said. Do you jump in? Do things being said. Do you jump in? Do you just sit silently? What do we do in you just sit silently? What do we do in you just sit silently? What do we do in that situation?

that situation? that situation? >> Well, yeah, and part of that's going to >> Well, yeah, and part of that's going to >> Well, yeah, and part of that's going to depend on your personality and so you depend on your personality and so you depend on your personality and so you know me, I'm not going to sit silently. know me, I'm not going to sit silently. know me, I'm not going to sit silently. I want to jump into that, but I think I want to jump into that, but I think I want to jump into that, but I think that there is I think that there is a that there is I think that there is a that there is I think that there is a a redemptive presence in this. If you're a redemptive presence in this. If you're a redemptive presence in this. If you're sitting around with a group of friends sitting around with a group of friends sitting around with a group of friends and, you know, you start really if you and, you know, you start really if you and, you know, you start really if you start paying attention to the start paying attention to the start paying attention to the conversations and you realize like, oh, conversations and you realize like, oh, conversations and you realize like, oh, you guys are getting really tribal. Like you guys are getting really tribal. Like you guys are getting really tribal. Like you guys are getting like your whole you guys are getting like your whole you guys are getting like your whole friend group or your whole, you know, friend group or your whole, you know, friend group or your whole, you know, social media presence or whatever it is social media presence or whatever it is social media presence or whatever it is is getting really like you're requiring is getting really like you're requiring is getting really like you're requiring people to agree with you on all these people to agree with you on all these people to agree with you on all these things. things. things. Um I would say first of all, go back and Um I would say first of all, go back and Um I would say first of all, go back and read John 17 because Jesus prayed that read John 17 because Jesus prayed that read John 17 because Jesus prayed that we would be one. He did not pray that we we would be one. He did not pray that we we would be one. He did not pray that we would be the same. And sameness and would be the same. And sameness and would be the same. And sameness and oneness are not the same. So to push oneness are not the same. So to push oneness are not the same. So to push against this idea that we all need to be against this idea that we all need to be against this idea that we all need to be the same. the same. the same. To to To to To to to delight in different opinions on to delight in different opinions on to delight in different opinions on things and to learn from each other. things and to learn from each other. things and to learn from each other. That That this is it is okay if you That That this is it is okay if you That That this is it is okay if you disagree on these things, these tertiary disagree on these things, these tertiary disagree on these things, these tertiary issues. Like it is okay and it's issues. Like it is okay and it's issues. Like it is okay and it's actually I think life is more actually I think life is more actually I think life is more interesting and enjoyable. I don't want interesting and enjoyable. I don't want interesting and enjoyable. I don't want all my friends to agree with me all my friends to agree with me all my friends to agree with me politically or worship style or all of politically or worship style or all of politically or worship style or all of these things, you know, how to educate these things, you know, how to educate these things, you know, how to educate our children. I don't want my friends to our children. I don't want my friends to our children. I don't want my friends to agree agree agree with me on all of those things and I with me on all of those things and I with me on all of those things and I love having these conversations with love having these conversations with love having these conversations with people when they do disagree. So learn people when they do disagree. So learn people when they do disagree. So learn to recognize where you're requiring to recognize where you're requiring to recognize where you're requiring sameness and you're requiring agreement sameness and you're requiring agreement sameness and you're requiring agreement on all these things to to really love on all these things to to really love on all these things to to really love and trust somebody.

and trust somebody. and trust somebody. But also, I think what I think the gist But also, I think what I think the gist But also, I think what I think the gist of Romans 14 is that the Lord is calling of Romans 14 is that the Lord is calling of Romans 14 is that the Lord is calling us to love others more than we love our us to love others more than we love our us to love others more than we love our convictions. convictions. convictions. And I just don't think that's happening And I just don't think that's happening And I just don't think that's happening on the, you know, on the reg in society on the, you know, on the reg in society on the, you know, on the reg in society right now. So Romans 14, Paul says, right now. So Romans 14, Paul says, right now. So Romans 14, Paul says, as for the one who's weak in faith. And as for the one who's weak in faith. And as for the one who's weak in faith. And he's going to go on and define that. He he's going to go on and define that. He he's going to go on and define that. He says, welcome him, but not to quarrel says, welcome him, but not to quarrel says, welcome him, but not to quarrel over opinions. So here he's saying, over opinions. So here he's saying, over opinions. So here he's saying, y'all don't agree on something. Uh so y'all don't agree on something. Uh so y'all don't agree on something. Uh so welcome this person, but not so that you welcome this person, but not so that you welcome this person, but not so that you can convince him of that. He says, one can convince him of that. He says, one can convince him of that. He says, one person believes that he may eat person believes that he may eat person believes that he may eat anything. So he's kind of got looser anything. So he's kind of got looser anything. So he's kind of got looser convictions around something. While the convictions around something. While the convictions around something. While the weak person eats only vegetables. So weak person eats only vegetables. So weak person eats only vegetables. So these tighter convictions um, these tighter convictions um, these tighter convictions um, restraints, which I think we It's restraints, which I think we It's restraints, which I think we It's interesting. I think we tend tend to interesting. I think we tend tend to interesting. I think we tend tend to think that when we have really rigid, think that when we have really rigid, think that when we have really rigid, um, opinions on things that we're the um, opinions on things that we're the um, opinions on things that we're the stronger person. But what Paul's saying stronger person. But what Paul's saying stronger person. But what Paul's saying is, "No, actually the stronger person is, "No, actually the stronger person is, "No, actually the stronger person understands what's tertiary, and they understands what's tertiary, and they understands what's tertiary, and they understand Christian freedom." And then understand Christian freedom." And then understand Christian freedom." And then he says, "Don't But if you're the one he says, "Don't But if you're the one he says, "Don't But if you're the one that eats, if you're the one that that eats, if you're the one that that eats, if you're the one that has a little bit more freedom in this, has a little bit more freedom in this, has a little bit more freedom in this, don't, um, don't, um, don't, um, don't despise the one who is a little don't despise the one who is a little don't despise the one who is a little bit more constricted on this. And if bit more constricted on this. And if bit more constricted on this. And if you're the one that's a little bit more you're the one that's a little bit more you're the one that's a little bit more constricted, don't pass judgment on the constricted, don't pass judgment on the constricted, don't pass judgment on the one who eats." So So you're not judging one who eats." So So you're not judging one who eats." So So you're not judging somebody for not agreeing with you, and somebody for not agreeing with you, and somebody for not agreeing with you, and you're not like despising the person you're not like despising the person you're not like despising the person because you think, "My gosh, that's just because you think, "My gosh, that's just because you think, "My gosh, that's just ridiculous that you think that that's ridiculous that you think that that's ridiculous that you think that that's that important." But instead, you

that important." But instead, you that important." But instead, you welcome each other. And then he's like, welcome each other. And then he's like, welcome each other. And then he's like, "And do not for the sake of food," but I "And do not for the sake of food," but I "And do not for the sake of food," but I think we could say, "Do not for the sake think we could say, "Do not for the sake think we could say, "Do not for the sake of political affiliation or educational of political affiliation or educational of political affiliation or educational choices or, um, you know, mode of choices or, um, you know, mode of choices or, um, you know, mode of baptism or Bible translation or worship baptism or Bible translation or worship baptism or Bible translation or worship style, but do not destroy the work of style, but do not destroy the work of style, but do not destroy the work of God." Like it actually is destroying our God." Like it actually is destroying our God." Like it actually is destroying our witness. Jesus is like, "They're going witness. Jesus is like, "They're going witness. Jesus is like, "They're going to know you're my disciples by the way to know you're my disciples by the way to know you're my disciples by the way you love each other." And so this unity you love each other." And so this unity you love each other." And so this unity in the faith, the unity on the in the faith, the unity on the in the faith, the unity on the essentials, the unity on the primary essentials, the unity on the primary essentials, the unity on the primary issues is actually our witness to the issues is actually our witness to the issues is actually our witness to the watching world. So then back to John 17, watching world. So then back to John 17, watching world. So then back to John 17, he ends that prayer by saying, "Make he ends that prayer by saying, "Make he ends that prayer by saying, "Make them one so that the world will know them one so that the world will know them one so that the world will know that the Father sent the Son." that the Father sent the Son." that the Father sent the Son." So there's this beautiful witness to our So there's this beautiful witness to our So there's this beautiful witness to our ability to come together in in joyful ability to come together in in joyful ability to come together in in joyful fellowship fellowship fellowship even and in the midst of disagreement on even and in the midst of disagreement on even and in the midst of disagreement on these lesser issues. And so, um, so I these lesser issues. And so, um, so I these lesser issues. And so, um, so I would just say, would just say, would just say, cultivate that in your friend group.

cultivate that in your friend group. cultivate that in your friend group. Cultivate that online. Um, pursue that Cultivate that online. Um, pursue that Cultivate that online. Um, pursue that in your own life and in your own in your in your own life and in your own in your in your own life and in your own in your own family system. own family system. own family system. Um, do you want to add anything to that Um, do you want to add anything to that Um, do you want to add anything to that before I ask you the ending question, before I ask you the ending question, before I ask you the ending question, the last question? the last question? the last question? I think the one thing I would say on I think the one thing I would say on I think the one thing I would say on this, too, and this is part of that this, too, and this is part of that this, too, and this is part of that humility, is to remember we're all humility, is to remember we're all humility, is to remember we're all growing in the faith, um, and we're all growing in the faith, um, and we're all growing in the faith, um, and we're all learning. So even things that I think, learning. So even things that I think, learning. So even things that I think, um, when I look back on 20 years ago, I um, when I look back on 20 years ago, I um, when I look back on 20 years ago, I would have held to so staunchly, would have held to so staunchly, would have held to so staunchly, can I be compassionate to that person can I be compassionate to that person can I be compassionate to that person maybe who is, um, maybe who is, um, maybe who is, um, in a place I was 20 years ago. And And in a place I was 20 years ago. And And in a place I was 20 years ago. And And who who is, um, holding to how you who who is, um, holding to how you who who is, um, holding to how you should do sleep training really rigidly. should do sleep training really rigidly. should do sleep training really rigidly. Um, can I remember, well, you know, I Um, can I remember, well, you know, I Um, can I remember, well, you know, I was really struggling with that at that was really struggling with that at that was really struggling with that at that point. And And in a kind way, point. And And in a kind way, point. And And in a kind way, um, just remember um, just remember um, just remember the goal is like, "Hey, let's grow in the goal is like, "Hey, let's grow in the goal is like, "Hey, let's grow in the faith and let's walk toward the Lord the faith and let's walk toward the Lord the faith and let's walk toward the Lord together, not get everyone to agree with together, not get everyone to agree with together, not get everyone to agree with us on these issues." And so I think us on these issues." And so I think us on these issues." And so I think keeping what's most important important.

keeping what's most important important. keeping what's most important important. And so I always say, "What I want to And so I always say, "What I want to And so I always say, "What I want to draw women into is God's word. Get them draw women into is God's word. Get them draw women into is God's word. Get them growing and abiding in that, because if growing and abiding in that, because if growing and abiding in that, because if my words abide in you, you know, the my words abide in you, you know, the my words abide in you, you know, the then, you know, we're going to see a then, you know, we're going to see a then, you know, we're going to see a fruitful branch, so to speak." But the fruitful branch, so to speak." But the fruitful branch, so to speak." But the the problem is we're often calling the problem is we're often calling the problem is we're often calling people to our team people to our team people to our team rather, you know, like, "Hey, come be rather, you know, like, "Hey, come be rather, you know, like, "Hey, come be like me," just like you said earlier. like me," just like you said earlier. like me," just like you said earlier. Um, the spiritual growth is always Um, the spiritual growth is always Um, the spiritual growth is always saying, "Come be more like Jesus. Let saying, "Come be more like Jesus. Let saying, "Come be more like Jesus. Let Let me point you to him." And the way we Let me point you to him." And the way we Let me point you to him." And the way we do that is to get people in the word and do that is to get people in the word and do that is to get people in the word and be in the word ourselves. That is going be in the word ourselves. That is going be in the word ourselves. That is going to be, um, the greatest way we battle to be, um, the greatest way we battle to be, um, the greatest way we battle self-righteousness is to constantly be self-righteousness is to constantly be self-righteousness is to constantly be in the word, be in prayer, walking with in the word, be in prayer, walking with in the word, be in prayer, walking with Jesus, cuz it's going to continually Jesus, cuz it's going to continually Jesus, cuz it's going to continually expose us. It's going to continually expose us. It's going to continually expose us. It's going to continually show us ourselves, but then at the same show us ourselves, but then at the same show us ourselves, but then at the same time, it's going to humble us and make time, it's going to humble us and make time, it's going to humble us and make us kind, um, as we walk with others who us kind, um, as we walk with others who us kind, um, as we walk with others who have different opinions on some of these have different opinions on some of these have different opinions on some of these issues. issues. issues. And at the same time, it will give us And at the same time, it will give us And at the same time, it will give us discernment to know, "Hey, discernment to know, "Hey, discernment to know, "Hey, that that view is actually not Christian that that view is actually not Christian that that view is actually not Christian anymore." Like you've now stepped anymore." Like you've now stepped anymore." Like you've now stepped outside of orthodoxy. And we have to be outside of orthodoxy. And we have to be outside of orthodoxy. And we have to be able to do all of those, and that is able to do all of those, and that is able to do all of those, and that is really hard to do. Um, and praise the really hard to do. Um, and praise the really hard to do. Um, and praise the Lord we have the Spirit living in us, Lord we have the Spirit living in us, Lord we have the Spirit living in us, who through his word is giving us wisdom who through his word is giving us wisdom who through his word is giving us wisdom and direction and clarity on these and direction and clarity on these and direction and clarity on these things, cuz this is not easy. Um, this things, cuz this is not easy. Um, this things, cuz this is not easy. Um, this is really not easy to discern one, where is really not easy to discern one, where is really not easy to discern one, where am I doing this in my own heart, and am I doing this in my own heart, and am I doing this in my own heart, and where is it worth, "Hey, I I need to,

where is it worth, "Hey, I I need to, where is it worth, "Hey, I I need to, um, rebuke and correct in love." Like um, rebuke and correct in love." Like um, rebuke and correct in love." Like that's also part of the call of the that's also part of the call of the that's also part of the call of the Christian. That doesn't mean you're Christian. That doesn't mean you're Christian. That doesn't mean you're self-righteous because you correct self-righteous because you correct self-righteous because you correct someone else on something. So, you know, someone else on something. So, you know, someone else on something. So, you know, this is a Man, this is this is a Man, this is this is a Man, this is this is not easy. That's what I'll I'll this is not easy. That's what I'll I'll this is not easy. That's what I'll I'll say. Like this whole conversation I say. Like this whole conversation I say. Like this whole conversation I think is really tricky and really hard. think is really tricky and really hard. think is really tricky and really hard. Um, Um, Um, and so I think we start first by asking and so I think we start first by asking and so I think we start first by asking the Lord even to expose where we are the Lord even to expose where we are the Lord even to expose where we are holding on to self-righteousness, holding on to self-righteousness, holding on to self-righteousness, um, to show it to ourselves. And then, um, to show it to ourselves. And then, um, to show it to ourselves. And then, yeah, walk walk in kindness walk by the yeah, walk walk in kindness walk by the yeah, walk walk in kindness walk by the Spirit with others. Spirit with others. Spirit with others. And And if if we're not displaying love, And And if if we're not displaying love, And And if if we're not displaying love, joy, peace, patience, kind, you know, joy, peace, patience, kind, you know, joy, peace, patience, kind, you know, all of those fruit, it's a good sign all of those fruit, it's a good sign all of those fruit, it's a good sign maybe we're clinging to our own maybe we're clinging to our own maybe we're clinging to our own self-righteousness at some level. That's self-righteousness at some level. That's self-righteousness at some level. That's good. good. good. Well, okay, we always like to end on a Well, okay, we always like to end on a Well, okay, we always like to end on a fun question. So in the spirit of not fun question. So in the spirit of not fun question. So in the spirit of not priding ourselves on our own priding ourselves on our own priding ourselves on our own righteousness, what is a non-sinful righteousness, what is a non-sinful righteousness, what is a non-sinful guilty pleasure that you enjoy guilty pleasure that you enjoy guilty pleasure that you enjoy besides deep-dish pizza?

besides deep-dish pizza? besides deep-dish pizza? >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> Everything for me is food, Courtney. >> Everything for me is food, Courtney. >> Everything for me is food, Courtney. Do you have a food one? Do you have a food one? Do you have a food one? >> Same. >> Same. >> Same. Yeah, hot tamales on a road trip. Like Yeah, hot tamales on a road trip. Like Yeah, hot tamales on a road trip. Like Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right? I Okay, why is that What are you Right? I Okay, why is that What are you Right? I Okay, why is that What are you talking about? Tell me more about that. talking about? Tell me more about that. talking about? Tell me more about that. What is What I've never I Candy. What is What I've never I Candy. What is What I've never I Candy. The candy. Oh, I was picturing an actual The candy. Oh, I was picturing an actual The candy. Oh, I was picturing an actual tamale. I was like, "Are you stopping at tamale. I was like, "Are you stopping at tamale. I was like, "Are you stopping at like like like >> That's hilarious. a quickie mart and >> That's hilarious. a quickie mart and >> That's hilarious. a quickie mart and getting like getting like getting like >> No, the hot tamales on a road trip. Like >> No, the hot tamales on a road trip. Like >> No, the hot tamales on a road trip. Like that is my favorite thing. Yeah, I love that is my favorite thing. Yeah, I love that is my favorite thing. Yeah, I love I love hot tamales, but, you know, I love hot tamales, but, you know, I love hot tamales, but, you know, >> Okay. You know what mine is? Mine's a >> Okay. You know what mine is? Mine's a >> Okay. You know what mine is? Mine's a little bit bougier. Your hot tamale, little bit bougier. Your hot tamale, little bit bougier. Your hot tamale, I'll see your hot tamale, and I'm going I'll see your hot tamale, and I'm going I'll see your hot tamale, and I'm going to raise it with sizzling cinnamon jelly to raise it with sizzling cinnamon jelly to raise it with sizzling cinnamon jelly bellies. Those are better than the hot bellies. Those are better than the hot bellies. Those are better than the hot tamales. tamales. tamales. >> Mhm. That is debatable. And I feel like >> Mhm. That is debatable. And I feel like >> Mhm. That is debatable. And I feel like you're already prideful about that. you're already prideful about that. you're already prideful about that. Yeah, I am prideful about I feel like, Yeah, I am prideful about I feel like, Yeah, I am prideful about I feel like, yeah, you've put like a moral virtue on yeah, you've put like a moral virtue on yeah, you've put like a moral virtue on your your your >> What do you mean I'm not? >> What do you mean I'm not? >> What do you mean I'm not? >> because I don't even know where you can >> because I don't even know where you can >> because I don't even know where you can get those. I feel like mine are just so get those. I feel like mine are just so get those. I feel like mine are just so much more accessible. And much more accessible. And much more accessible. And >> I shop at the right stores, Courtney. If >> I shop at the right stores, Courtney. If >> I shop at the right stores, Courtney. If you shop at the right stores, you'd be you shop at the right stores, you'd be you shop at the right stores, you'd be able to find This is able to find This is able to find This is >> Well, I'm humble and shop everywhere, so >> Well, I'm humble and shop everywhere, so >> Well, I'm humble and shop everywhere, so >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> I'm going to wrap us up now, friends.

>> I'm going to wrap us up now, friends. >> I'm going to wrap us up now, friends. We do hope that you have been encouraged We do hope that you have been encouraged We do hope that you have been encouraged by this episode of the Deep Dish from by this episode of the Deep Dish from by this episode of the Deep Dish from the Gospel Coalition. If so, we hope the Gospel Coalition. If so, we hope the Gospel Coalition. If so, we hope that you will subscribe, share it with that you will subscribe, share it with that you will subscribe, share it with others, or leave us a comment, and we others, or leave us a comment, and we others, or leave us a comment, and we will see you next [music] time at On the will see you next [music] time at On the will see you next [music] time at On the Deep the Deep Dish.