How to Stay Sharp As a Pastor [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 41]

All of us ought to be trying to get All of us ought to be trying to get better. Yeah. And um and and and all of better. Yeah. And um and and and all of better. Yeah. And um and and and all of us need to figure out how to learn us need to figure out how to learn us need to figure out how to learn somehow. [music] Doctors are expected to somehow. [music] Doctors are expected to somehow. [music] Doctors are expected to do it. Accountants are expected to do do it. Accountants are expected to do do it. Accountants are expected to do it. Counselors are expected to do it. it. Counselors are expected to do it. it. Counselors are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors ought to do it. ought to do it. ought to do it. [music] Welcome to this episode of The Everyday Welcome to this episode of The Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the Nuts and Bolts of Coalition on the Nuts and Bolts of Coalition on the Nuts and Bolts of Ministry. My name is Matt Smiths Ministry. My name is Matt Smiths Ministry. My name is Matt Smiths >> and I'm Lig Duncan >> and I'm Lig Duncan >> and I'm Lig Duncan >> and we're going to be talking about >> and we're going to be talking about >> and we're going to be talking about continuing education for pastors both continuing education for pastors both continuing education for pastors both informally and formally. Leig, I can informally and formally. Leig, I can informally and formally. Leig, I can just say as as someone who uh went to just say as as someone who uh went to just say as as someone who uh went to seminary, has a seminary degree, and is seminary, has a seminary degree, and is seminary, has a seminary degree, and is now in the grind of everyday ministry, now in the grind of everyday ministry, now in the grind of everyday ministry, it can be easy to just start to coast it can be easy to just start to coast it can be easy to just start to coast and um and only kind of feed on past and um and only kind of feed on past and um and only kind of feed on past learning rather than creating, carving learning rather than creating, carving learning rather than creating, carving out time to continue challenging myself out time to continue challenging myself out time to continue challenging myself intellectually. um reading um intellectually. um reading um intellectually. um reading um theological books, staying ab breast of theological books, staying ab breast of theological books, staying ab breast of current trends. Uh it's difficult in in current trends. Uh it's difficult in in current trends. Uh it's difficult in in with the demands of of pastoral with the demands of of pastoral with the demands of of pastoral ministry. So let's just talk first about ministry. So let's just talk first about ministry. So let's just talk first about informal ways for pastors to stay sharp.

informal ways for pastors to stay sharp. informal ways for pastors to stay sharp. Uh why is that important? Well, one Uh why is that important? Well, one Uh why is that important? Well, one because the pastoral ministry will grind because the pastoral ministry will grind because the pastoral ministry will grind you up. Uh it you know you you have to you up. Uh it you know you you have to you up. Uh it you know you you have to live with people in their sorrows. You live with people in their sorrows. You live with people in their sorrows. You have to see some really hard things and have to see some really hard things and have to see some really hard things and then you can be faithfully ministering then you can be faithfully ministering then you can be faithfully ministering and you can face some real challenges, and you can face some real challenges, and you can face some real challenges, relational challenges, political relational challenges, political relational challenges, political challenges in your own congregation. It challenges in your own congregation. It challenges in your own congregation. It it tempts you to cynicism and it tempts you to cynicism and it tempts you to cynicism and discouragement. And I've always found discouragement. And I've always found discouragement. And I've always found that the pure study of God, the pure that the pure study of God, the pure that the pure study of God, the pure study of his word was a blessed relief study of his word was a blessed relief study of his word was a blessed relief from some of those realities that you from some of those realities that you from some of those realities that you have to face if the chairman of your have to face if the chairman of your have to face if the chairman of your board of deacons is trying to get you board of deacons is trying to get you board of deacons is trying to get you fired. um to be able to go think about fired. um to be able to go think about fired. um to be able to go think about God or study the book of Isaiah or God or study the book of Isaiah or God or study the book of Isaiah or listen to a series of lectures on CS listen to a series of lectures on CS listen to a series of lectures on CS Lewis or you know anything to get me Lewis or you know anything to get me Lewis or you know anything to get me away from being caught up in the grind away from being caught up in the grind away from being caught up in the grind of the moment. Remember my first love. of the moment. Remember my first love. of the moment. Remember my first love. Remember that I got into this because I Remember that I got into this because I Remember that I got into this because I I loved God. He saved me. I wanted to I loved God. He saved me. I wanted to I loved God. He saved me. I wanted to tell other people about him. I'd like to tell other people about him. I'd like to tell other people about him. I'd like to know more about him and I think I'll know more about him and I think I'll know more about him and I think I'll minister to people better if I do. I minister to people better if I do. I minister to people better if I do. I think every minister has to find what think every minister has to find what think every minister has to find what works for you to keep filling up the works for you to keep filling up the works for you to keep filling up the tank. And it's different for everybody, tank. And it's different for everybody, tank. And it's different for everybody, but I think almost all of us like to but I think almost all of us like to but I think almost all of us like to listen to sermons by other ministers.

listen to sermons by other ministers. listen to sermons by other ministers. There are other ministers that There are other ministers that There are other ministers that particularly speak to us. For me, particularly speak to us. For me, particularly speak to us. For me, growing up, Eric Alexander's preaching growing up, Eric Alexander's preaching growing up, Eric Alexander's preaching was tremendously encouraging. Sinclair was tremendously encouraging. Sinclair was tremendously encouraging. Sinclair Ferguson's preaching was tremendously Ferguson's preaching was tremendously Ferguson's preaching was tremendously encouraging. I've been helped by John encouraging. I've been helped by John encouraging. I've been helped by John Piper over the years. Uh I I just have a Piper over the years. Uh I I just have a Piper over the years. Uh I I just have a variety of ministers that I listen to variety of ministers that I listen to variety of ministers that I listen to that edify me and and can can build me that edify me and and can can build me that edify me and and can can build me up so that I can then pour myself into up so that I can then pour myself into up so that I can then pour myself into the congregation. the congregation. the congregation. But all of us need to find a way. How But all of us need to find a way. How But all of us need to find a way. How are we going to continue to grow in our are we going to continue to grow in our are we going to continue to grow in our knowledge of the Lord? Um, how are we knowledge of the Lord? Um, how are we knowledge of the Lord? Um, how are we going to need to grow in our knowledge going to need to grow in our knowledge going to need to grow in our knowledge of scripture? We never know our Bibles of scripture? We never know our Bibles of scripture? We never know our Bibles well enough. I mean, I I cannot tell you well enough. I mean, I I cannot tell you well enough. I mean, I I cannot tell you how many times I've thought, how many times I've thought, how many times I've thought, I've been studying the Bible for 45 I've been studying the Bible for 45 I've been studying the Bible for 45 years professionally. years professionally. years professionally. Why don't I know the Bible better than I Why don't I know the Bible better than I Why don't I know the Bible better than I know it? and and it makes me want to go know it? and and it makes me want to go know it? and and it makes me want to go study things when I when when I have study things when I when when I have study things when I when when I have that feeling when I'm working through a that feeling when I'm working through a that feeling when I'm working through a passage or you know you've you've passage or you know you've you've passage or you know you've you've preached through a a Bible book before preached through a a Bible book before preached through a a Bible book before and you're listening to somebody else and you're listening to somebody else and you're listening to somebody else preach on the passage and you go how did preach on the passage and you go how did preach on the passage and you go how did I miss that I preached through that I miss that I preached through that I miss that I preached through that Bible book that brother just brought out Bible book that brother just brought out Bible book that brother just brought out something that was plain as the nose on something that was plain as the nose on something that was plain as the nose on my face and I missed it I'm I'm forever my face and I missed it I'm I'm forever my face and I missed it I'm I'm forever doing that I'll I'll hear a sermon I'll doing that I'll I'll hear a sermon I'll doing that I'll I'll hear a sermon I'll be edified by it I'll go back wonder be edified by it I'll go back wonder be edified by it I'll go back wonder what I did with that passage. And I'll what I did with that passage. And I'll what I did with that passage. And I'll go back and I'll look and I'll go, "Oh, go back and I'll look and I'll go, "Oh, go back and I'll look and I'll go, "Oh, how did I miss that? He was so right

how did I miss that? He was so right how did I miss that? He was so right about that." And I totally missed that. about that." And I totally missed that. about that." And I totally missed that. I didn't say anything about that in the I didn't say anything about that in the I didn't say anything about that in the sermon. So, all of us want to keep sermon. So, all of us want to keep sermon. So, all of us want to keep filling up the tank. We will be able to filling up the tank. We will be able to filling up the tank. We will be able to edify people better, but it'll also be edify people better, but it'll also be edify people better, but it'll also be good for our own souls. And it's again, good for our own souls. And it's again, good for our own souls. And it's again, it's different for everybody. You know, it's different for everybody. You know, it's different for everybody. You know, everybody doesn't have to go do a PhD or everybody doesn't have to go do a PhD or everybody doesn't have to go do a PhD or do some sort of formal track thing, but do some sort of formal track thing, but do some sort of formal track thing, but all of us ought to be trying to fill up all of us ought to be trying to fill up all of us ought to be trying to fill up the tank. Yeah. And and I'm convinced the tank. Yeah. And and I'm convinced the tank. Yeah. And and I'm convinced this has to be a discipline just like this has to be a discipline just like this has to be a discipline just like other things in life such as exercise other things in life such as exercise other things in life such as exercise and healthy eating. Uh even something as and healthy eating. Uh even something as and healthy eating. Uh even something as enjoyable as reading for those p those enjoyable as reading for those p those enjoyable as reading for those p those of us who are pastors who are go-getters of us who are pastors who are go-getters of us who are pastors who are go-getters and we want to constantly be kind of and we want to constantly be kind of and we want to constantly be kind of doing more ministry and sometimes even doing more ministry and sometimes even doing more ministry and sometimes even just you know it can be responding to just you know it can be responding to just you know it can be responding to emails that's just taking up a lot of emails that's just taking up a lot of emails that's just taking up a lot of time. We have to carve out moments to time. We have to carve out moments to time. We have to carve out moments to not just be still in the presence of the not just be still in the presence of the not just be still in the presence of the Lord, but to be going deeper in Lord, but to be going deeper in Lord, but to be going deeper in sharpening our minds and and edifying sharpening our minds and and edifying sharpening our minds and and edifying our hearts. My associate pastor, Kyle, our hearts. My associate pastor, Kyle, our hearts. My associate pastor, Kyle, is relatively new to the position, and is relatively new to the position, and is relatively new to the position, and I've told him that I want him spending I've told him that I want him spending I've told him that I want him spending 30 minutes a day on the clock reading 30 minutes a day on the clock reading 30 minutes a day on the clock reading some kind of um Christian book or some kind of um Christian book or some kind of um Christian book or theological book. And the reason for theological book. And the reason for theological book. And the reason for that is I know his his personality. He's that is I know his his personality. He's that is I know his his personality. He's such a relational machine. He's he's a such a relational machine. He's he's a such a relational machine. He's he's a hard worker, right? He's not the kind of hard worker, right? He's not the kind of hard worker, right? He's not the kind of guy I'm worried is just twiddling his guy I'm worried is just twiddling his guy I'm worried is just twiddling his thumbs and wasting his time, thumbs and wasting his time, thumbs and wasting his time, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> And therefore, I know that if I don't >> And therefore, I know that if I don't >> And therefore, I know that if I don't tell him, you must do this that he just tell him, you must do this that he just tell him, you must do this that he just won't. Um, but that's actually a way won't. Um, but that's actually a way won't. Um, but that's actually a way that he is going to serve our that he is going to serve our that he is going to serve our congregation is by filling up his tank, congregation is by filling up his tank, congregation is by filling up his tank, sharpening his mind, feeding his heart sharpening his mind, feeding his heart sharpening his mind, feeding his heart so that he can better minister to so that he can better minister to so that he can better minister to others. others. others. >> That's good. That's really good. And >> That's good. That's really good. And >> That's good. That's really good. And knowing knowing a fellow pastor like knowing knowing a fellow pastor like knowing knowing a fellow pastor like that, that's a gift. He He doesn't know that, that's a gift. He He doesn't know that, that's a gift. He He doesn't know what a gift that is for you to know that what a gift that is for you to know that what a gift that is for you to know that about him. And all of us wish that we about him. And all of us wish that we about him. And all of us wish that we could be more like a guy like that, you could be more like a guy like that, you could be more like a guy like that, you know, who loves the ministry, works hard know, who loves the ministry, works hard know, who loves the ministry, works hard at it, loves to be with people. Uh at it, loves to be with people. Uh at it, loves to be with people. Uh because I I find myself I I do love the because I I find myself I I do love the because I I find myself I I do love the part of pulling back and reading a book part of pulling back and reading a book part of pulling back and reading a book on my own and having nobody bother me. on my own and having nobody bother me. on my own and having nobody bother me. So I I'm I I have a special appreciation So I I'm I I have a special appreciation So I I'm I I have a special appreciation for pastors that just want to be out for pastors that just want to be out for pastors that just want to be out there on the front lines all the time. there on the front lines all the time. there on the front lines all the time. But you're right, they too need to have But you're right, they too need to have But you're right, they too need to have their tank filled up. And there's also their tank filled up. And there's also their tank filled up. And there's also something to be said for reading not something to be said for reading not something to be said for reading not just great theological minds but good just great theological minds but good just great theological minds but good writers. I think it actually helps me writers. I think it actually helps me writers. I think it actually helps me stay fresh when it comes to writing stay fresh when it comes to writing stay fresh when it comes to writing sermons and coming up with illustrations sermons and coming up with illustrations sermons and coming up with illustrations thinking thinking thinking >> for lack of a better word cinematically >> for lack of a better word cinematically >> for lack of a better word cinematically right in in word pictures uh which is right in in word pictures uh which is right in in word pictures uh which is which is going to make our preaching which is going to make our preaching which is going to make our preaching more fresh and and compelling by God's more fresh and and compelling by God's more fresh and and compelling by God's grace. Um and so yeah, when it comes to grace. Um and so yeah, when it comes to grace. Um and so yeah, when it comes to informal ways to stay sharp as a pastor, informal ways to stay sharp as a pastor, informal ways to stay sharp as a pastor, I think these days there is actually an I think these days there is actually an I think these days there is actually an embarrassment of riches out there. True.

embarrassment of riches out there. True. embarrassment of riches out there. True. >> I mean there are so many wonderful >> I mean there are so many wonderful >> I mean there are so many wonderful publications and publishers, you know, publications and publishers, you know, publications and publishers, you know, everything from Banner of Truth to everything from Banner of Truth to everything from Banner of Truth to Crossway to others who are just churning Crossway to others who are just churning Crossway to others who are just churning out uh rich resources. But also there out uh rich resources. But also there out uh rich resources. But also there there are um you know TGC hosts theios there are um you know TGC hosts theios there are um you know TGC hosts theios which is a theological journal that is which is a theological journal that is which is a theological journal that is free and comes out four times a year. Um free and comes out four times a year. Um free and comes out four times a year. Um that's a way to kind of stay that's a way to kind of stay that's a way to kind of stay >> the Carson Center has unbelievable >> the Carson Center has unbelievable >> the Carson Center has unbelievable riches at TGC that you know a full riches at TGC that you know a full riches at TGC that you know a full commentary online of the Bible things commentary online of the Bible things commentary online of the Bible things like this. Absolutely. Those are like this. Absolutely. Those are like this. Absolutely. Those are tremendous resources. Yeah. TGC has a tremendous resources. Yeah. TGC has a tremendous resources. Yeah. TGC has a bunch of courses um that you can go bunch of courses um that you can go bunch of courses um that you can go through that you can encourage your your through that you can encourage your your through that you can encourage your your lay leaders to go through. And uh also lay leaders to go through. And uh also lay leaders to go through. And uh also there's there's a new um page at TGC there's there's a new um page at TGC there's there's a new um page at TGC just tgc.org/pastors. just tgc.org/pastors. just tgc.org/pastors. If you just go to tgc.org/pastors If you just go to tgc.org/pastors If you just go to tgc.org/pastors /pastors and bookmark it. That will /pastors and bookmark it. That will /pastors and bookmark it. That will constantly um be basically uh channeling constantly um be basically uh channeling constantly um be basically uh channeling all of the pastoral content that TGC all of the pastoral content that TGC all of the pastoral content that TGC produces in a in one place. Uh which produces in a in one place. Uh which produces in a in one place. Uh which which is a wonderful thing to just um to which is a wonderful thing to just um to which is a wonderful thing to just um to just check out on a normal basis.

just check out on a normal basis. just check out on a normal basis. Anything else you would commend before Anything else you would commend before Anything else you would commend before we think about formal ways to to grow? we think about formal ways to to grow? we think about formal ways to to grow? Uh anything else just informally you Uh anything else just informally you Uh anything else just informally you would commen? just I mean I think you would commen? just I mean I think you would commen? just I mean I think you know there's been a lot of criticism of know there's been a lot of criticism of know there's been a lot of criticism of the conference culture of of our the conference culture of of our the conference culture of of our generation say the last 20 years and generation say the last 20 years and generation say the last 20 years and there are things to criticize about it there are things to criticize about it there are things to criticize about it to be sure but I find that a lot of to be sure but I find that a lot of to be sure but I find that a lot of pastors use that as a time for spiritual pastors use that as a time for spiritual pastors use that as a time for spiritual refreshment and connection with their refreshment and connection with their refreshment and connection with their fellow pastors or elders and I think fellow pastors or elders and I think fellow pastors or elders and I think that's a really good and buying good that's a really good and buying good that's a really good and buying good books that maybe you can't get in your books that maybe you can't get in your books that maybe you can't get in your hometown. I'm I'm always looking for a hometown. I'm I'm always looking for a hometown. I'm I'm always looking for a good theological bookstore. I like good theological bookstore. I like good theological bookstore. I like watching walking through conference watching walking through conference watching walking through conference bookstore uh areas and finding stuff. So bookstore uh areas and finding stuff. So bookstore uh areas and finding stuff. So there there is a role for that and I there there is a role for that and I there there is a role for that and I think there are plenty of opportunities think there are plenty of opportunities think there are plenty of opportunities still out there uh where that's that's still out there uh where that's that's still out there uh where that's that's an informal way of edification that can an informal way of edification that can an informal way of edification that can be helpful. It's bite-size. It's not be helpful. It's bite-size. It's not be helpful. It's bite-size. It's not sustained necessarily, but it can sustained necessarily, but it can sustained necessarily, but it can provide spiritual refreshment. And so I provide spiritual refreshment. And so I provide spiritual refreshment. And so I have seen that used positively. Another have seen that used positively. Another have seen that used positively. Another thing that um that that you can avail thing that um that that you can avail thing that um that that you can avail yourself of talking about the the yourself of talking about the the yourself of talking about the the written material that is is out there written material that is is out there written material that is is out there when you when you think about you and I when you when you think about you and I when you when you think about you and I were talking about the chronological were talking about the chronological were talking about the chronological Bible that you've been using from Bible that you've been using from Bible that you've been using from Crossways, but the study Bibles that Crossways, but the study Bibles that Crossways, but the study Bibles that exist out there. I mean, when I I exist out there. I mean, when I I exist out there. I mean, when I I remember when the NIV study Bible first remember when the NIV study Bible first remember when the NIV study Bible first came out, but now you've got an ESV came out, but now you've got an ESV came out, but now you've got an ESV study Bible. Um, you've you've got the

study Bible. Um, you've you've got the study Bible. Um, you've you've got the the the King James study Bible that Joel the the King James study Bible that Joel the the King James study Bible that Joel Beaky did. You've got the Reformation Beaky did. You've got the Reformation Beaky did. You've got the Reformation Study Bible. They're all and I'm a study Study Bible. They're all and I'm a study Study Bible. They're all and I'm a study Bible nerd. Bible nerd. Bible nerd. >> Well, and the NIV Zanderan study Bible, >> Well, and the NIV Zanderan study Bible, >> Well, and the NIV Zanderan study Bible, which might I think might be different which might I think might be different which might I think might be different than what you're referring to, the one than what you're referring to, the one than what you're referring to, the one Carson, the new the new one, right? I'm Carson, the new the new one, right? I'm Carson, the new the new one, right? I'm talking the old which was really good. talking the old which was really good. talking the old which was really good. The old one was really good. Kenneth The old one was really good. Kenneth The old one was really good. Kenneth Barker, I think, was involved in it Barker, I think, was involved in it Barker, I think, was involved in it then, but but Carson and company did the then, but but Carson and company did the then, but but Carson and company did the most recent NIV. I I like I like study most recent NIV. I I like I like study most recent NIV. I I like I like study Bibles. I like the articles that they Bibles. I like the articles that they Bibles. I like the articles that they generate. Uh reading through those generate. Uh reading through those generate. Uh reading through those articles can be an edifying thing. I articles can be an edifying thing. I articles can be an edifying thing. I like reading through the notes of of like reading through the notes of of like reading through the notes of of study Bibles on particular Bible books. study Bibles on particular Bible books. study Bibles on particular Bible books. So, you know, I'm getting let's say I'm So, you know, I'm getting let's say I'm So, you know, I'm getting let's say I'm getting ready to preach a sermon series getting ready to preach a sermon series getting ready to preach a sermon series on 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, and on 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, and on 1 Chronicles and 2 Chronicles, and I've never ever preached on that before. I've never ever preached on that before. I've never ever preached on that before. Reading through study Bible notes is a Reading through study Bible notes is a Reading through study Bible notes is a quick way to get up to speed on content quick way to get up to speed on content quick way to get up to speed on content and issues that you're going to. Now, and issues that you're going to. Now, and issues that you're going to. Now, you're still going to want to use you're still going to want to use you're still going to want to use commentaries and you're going to want to commentaries and you're going to want to commentaries and you're going to want to dive in to the text, but the the notes dive in to the text, but the the notes dive in to the text, but the the notes to study Bibles can be a great way. And to study Bibles can be a great way. And to study Bibles can be a great way. And I've even done that devotionally. You I've even done that devotionally. You I've even done that devotionally. You know, I've decided, okay, I'm going to know, I've decided, okay, I'm going to know, I've decided, okay, I'm going to read through the notes to the ESV study read through the notes to the ESV study read through the notes to the ESV study Bible devotionally this year. And um so Bible devotionally this year. And um so Bible devotionally this year. And um so that can be a way there are a lot of that can be a way there are a lot of that can be a way there are a lot of printed resources that can be utilized printed resources that can be utilized printed resources that can be utilized for either developing greater command of for either developing greater command of for either developing greater command of of the scriptures or for edifying you in

of the scriptures or for edifying you in of the scriptures or for edifying you in certain doctrinal areas. Mhm. [snorts] certain doctrinal areas. Mhm. [snorts] certain doctrinal areas. Mhm. [snorts] Even over the last year, I have tried to Even over the last year, I have tried to Even over the last year, I have tried to do a deeper dive into the doctrine of do a deeper dive into the doctrine of do a deeper dive into the doctrine of union with Christ, um into thinking union with Christ, um into thinking union with Christ, um into thinking about the Lord's Supper, um and the about the Lord's Supper, um and the about the Lord's Supper, um and the doctrine of the Trinity. Just making doctrine of the Trinity. Just making doctrine of the Trinity. Just making sure that I have my head around how sure that I have my head around how sure that I have my head around how Christians have thought about these Christians have thought about these Christians have thought about these things for 2,000 years. things for 2,000 years. things for 2,000 years. >> So, good. and am not inadvertently >> So, good. and am not inadvertently >> So, good. and am not inadvertently uh either misleading my people in some uh either misleading my people in some uh either misleading my people in some of my language or robbing them of some of my language or robbing them of some of my language or robbing them of some of the the wonder and the joy that could of the the wonder and the joy that could of the the wonder and the joy that could be theirs if they have a better grasp on be theirs if they have a better grasp on be theirs if they have a better grasp on uh how doctrines are not so much a list uh how doctrines are not so much a list uh how doctrines are not so much a list as they are a web and they are they are as they are a web and they are they are as they are a web and they are they are interconnected in this beautiful way interconnected in this beautiful way interconnected in this beautiful way such that if you you know poke one there such that if you you know poke one there such that if you you know poke one there going to be ripple effects elsewhere and going to be ripple effects elsewhere and going to be ripple effects elsewhere and I we want our people to view it that way I we want our people to view it that way I we want our people to view it that way >> now we want all pastors, we we would >> now we want all pastors, we we would >> now we want all pastors, we we would encourage all pastors to be seeking to encourage all pastors to be seeking to encourage all pastors to be seeking to carve out this time to grow uh to to carve out this time to grow uh to to carve out this time to grow uh to to feed their minds to uh stay sharp. But feed their minds to uh stay sharp. But feed their minds to uh stay sharp. But also for some pastors, it might be a also for some pastors, it might be a also for some pastors, it might be a wise thing to see if they can uh pursue wise thing to see if they can uh pursue wise thing to see if they can uh pursue another degree. Um, so as the uh another degree. Um, so as the uh another degree. Um, so as the uh chancellor of a seminary, talk about the chancellor of a seminary, talk about the chancellor of a seminary, talk about the benefit for a pastor in the trenches of benefit for a pastor in the trenches of benefit for a pastor in the trenches of ministry considering some kind of ministry considering some kind of ministry considering some kind of further education. Well, I actually further education. Well, I actually further education. Well, I actually encourage encourage encourage elders at local churches to give their elders at local churches to give their elders at local churches to give their pastors study leave, kind of like you

pastors study leave, kind of like you pastors study leave, kind of like you did with Kyle. Okay. If if we get did with Kyle. Okay. If if we get did with Kyle. Okay. If if we get vacation, vacation, vacation, you want to spend that vacation on your you want to spend that vacation on your you want to spend that vacation on your wife and your family, you are loathed to wife and your family, you are loathed to wife and your family, you are loathed to carve out any of that vacation time and carve out any of that vacation time and carve out any of that vacation time and use it on study. If you give study leave use it on study. If you give study leave use it on study. If you give study leave and say we want you actually to go study and say we want you actually to go study and say we want you actually to go study in addition to your vacation that in addition to your vacation that in addition to your vacation that provides tremendous opportunity and provides tremendous opportunity and provides tremendous opportunity and impetus for edifying you know impetus for edifying you know impetus for edifying you know self-edification. So I I encourage self-edification. So I I encourage self-edification. So I I encourage elders give that time to your pastors elders give that time to your pastors elders give that time to your pastors just like you would weekly want your just like you would weekly want your just like you would weekly want your pastor to be it'll come back to benefit. pastor to be it'll come back to benefit. pastor to be it'll come back to benefit. >> It will benefit you. You will never >> It will benefit you. You will never >> It will benefit you. You will never regret your pastor having done that regret your pastor having done that regret your pastor having done that extra study. And so it can be a pastor extra study. And so it can be a pastor extra study. And so it can be a pastor could go do a thm or a pastor could go could go do a thm or a pastor could go could go do a thm or a pastor could go take courses without ever intending to take courses without ever intending to take courses without ever intending to graduate with anything but have graduate with anything but have graduate with anything but have concentrated, you know, blocks of time, concentrated, you know, blocks of time, concentrated, you know, blocks of time, maybe a week intensive course where they maybe a week intensive course where they maybe a week intensive course where they went and studied something that was went and studied something that was went and studied something that was edifying. And again, it allowed them to edifying. And again, it allowed them to edifying. And again, it allowed them to decompress from the pressures of of the decompress from the pressures of of the decompress from the pressures of of the work in the local church. Pull away from work in the local church. Pull away from work in the local church. Pull away from the, you know, the demand the, you know, the, you know, the demand the, you know, the, you know, the demand the, you know, that you can be in the middle of that you can be in the middle of that you can be in the middle of preparing, the phone call comes, you got preparing, the phone call comes, you got preparing, the phone call comes, you got to drop everything and you've got to go to drop everything and you've got to go to drop everything and you've got to go to the hospital or you've got to go to to the hospital or you've got to go to to the hospital or you've got to go to the house or you've got to go to where the house or you've got to go to where the house or you've got to go to where the car wreck was. Put them in someplace

the car wreck was. Put them in someplace the car wreck was. Put them in someplace where they can just concentrate on God, where they can just concentrate on God, where they can just concentrate on God, on the Bible, on studying. That's a on the Bible, on studying. That's a on the Bible, on studying. That's a that's a very refreshing thing to do. that's a very refreshing thing to do. that's a very refreshing thing to do. But there's something about having to But there's something about having to But there's something about having to engage engage engage your um your intellectual your um your intellectual your um your intellectual faculties in a project that you're just faculties in a project that you're just faculties in a project that you're just going to get it in ways that you going to get it in ways that you going to get it in ways that you wouldn't sitting at a conference. And I wouldn't sitting at a conference. And I wouldn't sitting at a conference. And I I think some pastors need to do that. I think some pastors need to do that. I think some pastors need to do that. And I think but let me say I think we And I think but let me say I think we And I think but let me say I think we not only need to do that for our own not only need to do that for our own not only need to do that for our own edification but the fact of the matter edification but the fact of the matter edification but the fact of the matter is is theological education has already is is theological education has already is is theological education has already changed in our time and it's not going changed in our time and it's not going changed in our time and it's not going back and the the old system where a back and the the old system where a back and the the old system where a significant majority of the ministry significant majority of the ministry significant majority of the ministry going into say the Southern Baptist going into say the Southern Baptist going into say the Southern Baptist Convention and the Presbyterian Church Convention and the Presbyterian Church Convention and the Presbyterian Church in America went through a certain number in America went through a certain number in America went through a certain number of seminaries. That's that's going to be of seminaries. That's that's going to be of seminaries. That's that's going to be it's going to be more and more diffused. it's going to be more and more diffused. it's going to be more and more diffused. People are going to be there going to be People are going to be there going to be People are going to be there going to be different pathways of education going different pathways of education going different pathways of education going into ministry, which is going to mean into ministry, which is going to mean into ministry, which is going to mean we're going to need more pastors who are we're going to need more pastors who are we're going to need more pastors who are involved in theologically educating the involved in theologically educating the involved in theologically educating the next generation of ministers cuz it's next generation of ministers cuz it's next generation of ministers cuz it's the, you know, the the the few the, you know, the the the few the, you know, the the the few seminaries that used to have a monopoly seminaries that used to have a monopoly seminaries that used to have a monopoly on that don't have the monopoly that on that don't have the monopoly that on that don't have the monopoly that they used to have. And um and it mean they used to have. And um and it mean they used to have. And um and it mean I'm I'm always looking for pastors who I'm I'm always looking for pastors who I'm I'm always looking for pastors who have academic credentials who are have academic credentials who are have academic credentials who are willing to teach their electives that

willing to teach their electives that willing to teach their electives that they're able to teach. Sometimes they they're able to teach. Sometimes they they're able to teach. Sometimes they come in and sub for professors that are come in and sub for professors that are come in and sub for professors that are on sbatical. That ends up being by the on sbatical. That ends up being by the on sbatical. That ends up being by the way a real refreshing thing for them. way a real refreshing thing for them. way a real refreshing thing for them. you know, for a pastor to be able to you know, for a pastor to be able to you know, for a pastor to be able to come teach doctrine of God for a week come teach doctrine of God for a week come teach doctrine of God for a week and get away from the grind of ministry and get away from the grind of ministry and get away from the grind of ministry and think about God and help young and think about God and help young and think about God and help young people that are preparing for gospel people that are preparing for gospel people that are preparing for gospel work to think about God. Well, it's just work to think about God. Well, it's just work to think about God. Well, it's just a wonderful thing. I had that experience a wonderful thing. I had that experience a wonderful thing. I had that experience as a pastor when I was a a pastor at as a pastor when I was a a pastor at as a pastor when I was a a pastor at First President Jackson for 17 years. First President Jackson for 17 years. First President Jackson for 17 years. I was part-time at the seminary. I was I I was part-time at the seminary. I was I I was part-time at the seminary. I was I was adjunct and I would teach about a was adjunct and I would teach about a was adjunct and I would teach about a course a semester and it was just course a semester and it was just course a semester and it was just wonderful to be able to leave the church wonderful to be able to leave the church wonderful to be able to leave the church in the pressures of ministry and go in the pressures of ministry and go in the pressures of ministry and go teach about God, teach about the Bible, teach about God, teach about the Bible, teach about God, teach about the Bible, interact with young people that were interact with young people that were interact with young people that were asking questions. What's it going to be asking questions. What's it going to be asking questions. What's it going to be like? Be able to tell them, "Let me tell like? Be able to tell them, "Let me tell like? Be able to tell them, "Let me tell you what it's going to be like. I'll you what it's going to be like. I'll you what it's going to be like. I'll tell you from this week what it's going tell you from this week what it's going tell you from this week what it's going to be like." That that was just a to be like." That that was just a to be like." That that was just a wonderful thing for me. I I would say wonderful thing for me. I I would say wonderful thing for me. I I would say that the church by allowing me to do that the church by allowing me to do that the church by allowing me to do that was actually letting me do that was actually letting me do that was actually letting me do continuing education because I had to continuing education because I had to continuing education because I had to prepare lectures, prepare lectures, prepare lectures, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> You know, I had to get things ready and >> You know, I had to get things ready and >> You know, I had to get things ready and you learn a lot when you're teaching. you learn a lot when you're teaching. you learn a lot when you're teaching. And so we see a lot of we we see pastors And so we see a lot of we we see pastors And so we see a lot of we we see pastors doing this in demen programs. We see doing this in demen programs. We see doing this in demen programs. We see pastors doing this. pastors doing this. pastors doing this. >> Even the demons believe in Even the >> Even the demons believe in Even the >> Even the demons believe in Even the demons. That's right. Yeah. Thank you, demons. That's right. Yeah. Thank you, demons. That's right. Yeah. Thank you, David Wells, in the demonization of of David Wells, in the demonization of of David Wells, in the demonization of of the ministry. remember that old article the ministry. remember that old article the ministry. remember that old article that caused so much uh controversy. You that caused so much uh controversy. You that caused so much uh controversy. You know, I I do see pastors I'm thinking know, I I do see pastors I'm thinking know, I I do see pastors I'm thinking right now, you may know the name right now, you may know the name right now, you may know the name Jonathan Landry Cruz. John is um he's a Jonathan Landry Cruz. John is um he's a Jonathan Landry Cruz. John is um he's a an OPC minister. He's written several an OPC minister. He's written several an OPC minister. He's written several books. Uh he's written beautiful hymns books. Uh he's written beautiful hymns books. Uh he's written beautiful hymns and he was in my doctor of ministry and he was in my doctor of ministry and he was in my doctor of ministry course in Charlotte uh a year ago. And course in Charlotte uh a year ago. And course in Charlotte uh a year ago. And you know, number one, I thought, well, you know, number one, I thought, well, you know, number one, I thought, well, what a blessing it is for me to have a what a blessing it is for me to have a what a blessing it is for me to have a guy like this in class. I mean, he he guy like this in class. I mean, he he guy like this in class. I mean, he he could be up here teaching this class could be up here teaching this class could be up here teaching this class himself. And there he was sitting in a himself. And there he was sitting in a himself. And there he was sitting in a covenant theology class for ministry, covenant theology class for ministry, covenant theology class for ministry, thinking through the implications of thinking through the implications of thinking through the implications of covenant theology for pastoral ministry.

covenant theology for pastoral ministry. covenant theology for pastoral ministry. And he, you know, he's a guy who's And he, you know, he's a guy who's And he, you know, he's a guy who's already edifying the church. He's already edifying the church. He's already edifying the church. He's writing books. He'll speak at writing books. He'll speak at writing books. He'll speak at conferences. conferences. conferences. um he he'll he'll be a guy who's able to um he he'll he'll be a guy who's able to um he he'll he'll be a guy who's able to teach classes someday. teach classes someday. teach classes someday. >> But as the point you're making >> But as the point you're making >> But as the point you're making argument from the greater to the lesser argument from the greater to the lesser argument from the greater to the lesser even he hasn't arrived but he still even he hasn't arrived but he still even he hasn't arrived but he still knows his need for cons. knows his need for cons. knows his need for cons. >> So how how should a pastor think through >> So how how should a pastor think through >> So how how should a pastor think through I mean of course this is going to I mean of course this is going to I mean of course this is going to require case by case situational wisdom require case by case situational wisdom require case by case situational wisdom because every every situation will be because every every situation will be because every every situation will be different and some pastors just won't different and some pastors just won't different and some pastors just won't have the ability to do it. But how have the ability to do it. But how have the ability to do it. But how should someone think through whether should someone think through whether should someone think through whether they should pursue an advanced degree they should pursue an advanced degree they should pursue an advanced degree because it's not right for everyone? because it's not right for everyone? because it's not right for everyone? >> No, it isn't. And and and we were >> No, it isn't. And and and we were >> No, it isn't. And and and we were talking uh off camera and I have one one talking uh off camera and I have one one talking uh off camera and I have one one of my early students at the seminary was of my early students at the seminary was of my early students at the seminary was not the best academic, you know, not the best academic, you know, not the best academic, you know, academics were not his thing. He was academics were not his thing. He was academics were not his thing. He was really interested in the material. He really interested in the material. He really interested in the material. He was really godly and so he wanted to was really godly and so he wanted to was really godly and so he wanted to take it in. He struggled with writing take it in. He struggled with writing take it in. He struggled with writing and with testing and things of that and with testing and things of that and with testing and things of that nature. Now he has turned out to be a nature. Now he has turned out to be a nature. Now he has turned out to be a better pastor than I'll ever be.

better pastor than I'll ever be. better pastor than I'll ever be. He doesn't need to go do a PhD to edify He doesn't need to go do a PhD to edify He doesn't need to go do a PhD to edify himself. There's going to be a different himself. There's going to be a different himself. There's going to be a different way for that that guy to edify himself. way for that that guy to edify himself. way for that that guy to edify himself. But there are going to be some some guys But there are going to be some some guys But there are going to be some some guys that that have some chops to do some that that have some chops to do some that that have some chops to do some further study who ought to. And it's further study who ought to. And it's further study who ought to. And it's going to be edifying to them. It's going going to be edifying to them. It's going going to be edifying to them. It's going to be good for the church. Um, and then to be good for the church. Um, and then to be good for the church. Um, and then they're probably going to be able to they're probably going to be able to they're probably going to be able to have a wider application of that have a wider application of that have a wider application of that somewhere. I tell I tell most of us can somewhere. I tell I tell most of us can somewhere. I tell I tell most of us can have some area that we have focused on have some area that we have focused on have some area that we have focused on that ends up being a blessing to the that ends up being a blessing to the that ends up being a blessing to the circle of ministers that we're in. All circle of ministers that we're in. All circle of ministers that we're in. All of us have a little bit larger of circle of us have a little bit larger of circle of us have a little bit larger of circle of ministers that we associate with. And of ministers that we associate with. And of ministers that we associate with. And I love to hear from guys that are I love to hear from guys that are I love to hear from guys that are experts in certain areas that I'm not an experts in certain areas that I'm not an experts in certain areas that I'm not an expert in. They edify me. So you were expert in. They edify me. So you were expert in. They edify me. So you were talking about the doctrine of God and talking about the doctrine of God and talking about the doctrine of God and want to go back and and learn the want to go back and and learn the want to go back and and learn the doctrine of the trinity. Well, I reading doctrine of the trinity. Well, I reading doctrine of the trinity. Well, I reading Scott for me my my president in Orlando, Scott for me my my president in Orlando, Scott for me my my president in Orlando, my junior colleague in the seminary, a my junior colleague in the seminary, a my junior colleague in the seminary, a man, you know, more than a decade man, you know, more than a decade man, you know, more than a decade younger than me, good bit more than a younger than me, good bit more than a younger than me, good bit more than a decade younger than me, has written on decade younger than me, has written on decade younger than me, has written on doctrine of God and the doctrine of the doctrine of God and the doctrine of the doctrine of God and the doctrine of the trinity in ways where trinity in ways where trinity in ways where >> Scott Swain.

>> Scott Swain. >> Scott Swain. >> Scott Swain, >> Scott Swain, >> Scott Swain, >> who remember was I I had him in >> who remember was I I had him in >> who remember was I I had him in seminary. seminary. seminary. >> Did you? >> Did you? >> Did you? >> Cuz I started out at RTS. Oh wow. Way >> Cuz I started out at RTS. Oh wow. Way >> Cuz I started out at RTS. Oh wow. Way back in the day. Um and he I I took back in the day. Um and he I I took back in the day. Um and he I I took doctrine of God one from him and and it doctrine of God one from him and and it doctrine of God one from him and and it was remarkable. was remarkable. was remarkable. >> Yeah. Well, I you know I didn't have >> Yeah. Well, I you know I didn't have >> Yeah. Well, I you know I didn't have that experience in seminary. I was still that experience in seminary. I was still that experience in seminary. I was still working in the day where theistic working in the day where theistic working in the day where theistic mutualism was the thing. Okay. Help me mutualism was the thing. Okay. Help me mutualism was the thing. Okay. Help me stay sharp. What is that? I don't know stay sharp. What is that? I don't know stay sharp. What is that? I don't know what that is. That's a term what that is. That's a term what that is. That's a term that was invented just a few years ago that was invented just a few years ago that was invented just a few years ago to describe a tendency to describe a tendency to describe a tendency to change the classical doctrine of God to change the classical doctrine of God to change the classical doctrine of God in an anthropomorphic direction and to in an anthropomorphic direction and to in an anthropomorphic direction and to deny things like the impassibility of deny things like the impassibility of deny things like the impassibility of God or the immutability of God or um the God or the immutability of God or um the God or the immutability of God or um the timelessness of God, the eternality of timelessness of God, the eternality of timelessness of God, the eternality of God and to define them in more God and to define them in more God and to define them in more creaturely categories, more relational creaturely categories, more relational creaturely categories, more relational categories. That was still going on when categories. That was still going on when categories. That was still going on when I was in seminary in the 1980s, even in I was in seminary in the 1980s, even in I was in seminary in the 1980s, even in Orthodox circles. And what's happened in Orthodox circles. And what's happened in Orthodox circles. And what's happened in your generation, Matt, is there's your generation, Matt, is there's your generation, Matt, is there's there's a whole group of young scholars, there's a whole group of young scholars, there's a whole group of young scholars, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, Baptists, Presbyterians, Anglicans, that they are on fire for robust that they are on fire for robust that they are on fire for robust classical Christian doctrine of God. And classical Christian doctrine of God. And classical Christian doctrine of God. And so much so when I read Scott and heard so much so when I read Scott and heard so much so when I read Scott and heard Scott teach and and and read him write Scott teach and and and read him write Scott teach and and and read him write uh read his writings on um on doctrine

uh read his writings on um on doctrine uh read his writings on um on doctrine of God and Dr. Trinity, I realized I of God and Dr. Trinity, I realized I of God and Dr. Trinity, I realized I need to change the way I say some of need to change the way I say some of need to change the way I say some of these things. I need to talk about this these things. I need to talk about this these things. I need to talk about this different. Uh my confessional instincts different. Uh my confessional instincts different. Uh my confessional instincts had kept me out of trouble, but I had kept me out of trouble, but I had kept me out of trouble, but I realized that I had not gotten the realized that I had not gotten the realized that I had not gotten the fullness of my own tradition. And when I fullness of my own tradition. And when I fullness of my own tradition. And when I encountered Scott's writings, I just encountered Scott's writings, I just encountered Scott's writings, I just thought, man, I need to get better in thought, man, I need to get better in thought, man, I need to get better in that area. So, it doesn't matter your that area. So, it doesn't matter your that area. So, it doesn't matter your age, Matt. You mean an old guy like me age, Matt. You mean an old guy like me age, Matt. You mean an old guy like me and there there are young guys that are and there there are young guys that are and there there are young guys that are out there doing really good work that is out there doing really good work that is out there doing really good work that is going to it's going to edify you. If going to it's going to edify you. If going to it's going to edify you. If you're a pastor, you've been a pastor you're a pastor, you've been a pastor you're a pastor, you've been a pastor for 40 years, doesn't matter. It's still for 40 years, doesn't matter. It's still for 40 years, doesn't matter. It's still going to edify you. You're going to be going to edify you. You're going to be going to edify you. You're going to be excited about God in new ways again. excited about God in new ways again. excited about God in new ways again. You're going to talk about God with a You're going to talk about God with a You're going to talk about God with a new excitement and a new knowledge. new excitement and a new knowledge. new excitement and a new knowledge. you're going to be able to apply certain you're going to be able to apply certain you're going to be able to apply certain things to your people that they would things to your people that they would things to your people that they would have missed if you didn't know those have missed if you didn't know those have missed if you didn't know those things. It's all of us ought to be things. It's all of us ought to be things. It's all of us ought to be trying to get better. Yeah. And um and trying to get better. Yeah. And um and trying to get better. Yeah. And um and and and all of us need to figure out how and and all of us need to figure out how and and all of us need to figure out how to learn somehow. Doctors are expected to learn somehow. Doctors are expected to learn somehow. Doctors are expected to do it. Accountants are expected to do to do it. Accountants are expected to do to do it. Accountants are expected to do it. Counselors are expected to do it.

it. Counselors are expected to do it. it. Counselors are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Attorneys are expected to do it. Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors Teachers are expected to do it. Pastors ought to do it. ought to do it. ought to do it. >> Right. Right. I one caution I I think is >> Right. Right. I one caution I I think is >> Right. Right. I one caution I I think is worth giving though is that um you don't worth giving though is that um you don't worth giving though is that um you don't want to pursue an advanced degree as a want to pursue an advanced degree as a want to pursue an advanced degree as a means of escape from the humrum nature means of escape from the humrum nature means of escape from the humrum nature of pastoral life. So yes, one of the of pastoral life. So yes, one of the of pastoral life. So yes, one of the benefits is that it is intellectually benefits is that it is intellectually benefits is that it is intellectually stimulating and it it kind of keeps you stimulating and it it kind of keeps you stimulating and it it kind of keeps you sharp and fresh. sharp and fresh. sharp and fresh. >> But the reality is pastoral ministry is >> But the reality is pastoral ministry is >> But the reality is pastoral ministry is hard. hard. hard. >> It is. and you're doing membership >> It is. and you're doing membership >> It is. and you're doing membership interviews and marriage counseling and interviews and marriage counseling and interviews and marriage counseling and having one difficult conversation after having one difficult conversation after having one difficult conversation after another and if that is what's motivating another and if that is what's motivating another and if that is what's motivating you to say now I just I just want to you to say now I just I just want to you to say now I just I just want to escape and go give my best energy escape and go give my best energy escape and go give my best energy >> right >> right >> right >> to something else >> to something else >> to something else >> right >> right >> right >> well then uh that's probably not the >> well then uh that's probably not the >> well then uh that's probably not the wisest motivation amen I think the for wisest motivation amen I think the for wisest motivation amen I think the for me and I think I may even have used the me and I think I may even have used the me and I think I may even have used the word escape I here's what I here's what word escape I here's what I here's what word escape I here's what I here's what I meant for me to be able go and teach I meant for me to be able go and teach I meant for me to be able go and teach on the doctrine of adoption and and and on the doctrine of adoption and and and on the doctrine of adoption and and and have just a little while away from the have just a little while away from the have just a little while away from the couple that's just lost a child or the couple that's just lost a child or the couple that's just lost a child or the controversy uh amongst the elders over controversy uh amongst the elders over controversy uh amongst the elders over some issue was not because I really some issue was not because I really some issue was not because I really wanted to be there and I didn't want to wanted to be there and I didn't want to wanted to be there and I didn't want to be with my people. It was to recharge my be with my people. It was to recharge my be with my people. It was to recharge my battery so that I could go back in battery so that I could go back in battery so that I could go back in better prepared to serve them more better prepared to serve them more better prepared to serve them more confident in who God is. Those sorts of confident in who God is. Those sorts of confident in who God is. Those sorts of things. So I amen to you. It's not that

things. So I amen to you. It's not that things. So I amen to you. It's not that we want to go off somewhere and and just we want to go off somewhere and and just we want to go off somewhere and and just hide and never come back. We're not hide and never come back. We're not hide and never come back. We're not wanting to build our little tents on the wanting to build our little tents on the wanting to build our little tents on the top of the mountain and top of the mountain and top of the mountain and >> do it because you want to be a better >> do it because you want to be a better >> do it because you want to be a better pastor, pastor, pastor, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> Not because you're just tired of >> Not because you're just tired of >> Not because you're just tired of >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> And it's and I I don't want somebody >> And it's and I I don't want somebody >> And it's and I I don't want somebody coming to the seminary because they coming to the seminary because they coming to the seminary because they don't want that sort of reality in the don't want that sort of reality in the don't want that sort of reality in the pastoral ministry. I I want people pastoral ministry. I I want people pastoral ministry. I I want people coming to the seminary to teach who coming to the seminary to teach who coming to the seminary to teach who loved the pastoral work. Not that loved the pastoral work. Not that loved the pastoral work. Not that they're trying to escape it or cynical they're trying to escape it or cynical they're trying to escape it or cynical about it. They love the pastoral work. about it. They love the pastoral work. about it. They love the pastoral work. In fact, we really encourage our present In fact, we really encourage our present In fact, we really encourage our present professors to be pastorally involved in professors to be pastorally involved in professors to be pastorally involved in their local churches in some matter. their local churches in some matter. their local churches in some matter. It's not the same for everybody, but It's not the same for everybody, but It's not the same for everybody, but many of them are staff pastors many of them are staff pastors many of them are staff pastors somewhere. And I want them to be able to somewhere. And I want them to be able to somewhere. And I want them to be able to say, not just, you know, 15 years ago say, not just, you know, 15 years ago say, not just, you know, 15 years ago when I was a pastor, X happened, but you when I was a pastor, X happened, but you when I was a pastor, X happened, but you know, last week at the church, we were know, last week at the church, we were know, last week at the church, we were dealing with this. And I want them to dealing with this. And I want them to dealing with this. And I want them to love the local church. It's easy to be love the local church. It's easy to be love the local church. It's easy to be cynical about the pastoral ministry cynical about the pastoral ministry cynical about the pastoral ministry because hard things happen. It's easy to because hard things happen. It's easy to because hard things happen. It's easy to get burned out on it and want to escape.

get burned out on it and want to escape. get burned out on it and want to escape. But I'm not talking about getting away But I'm not talking about getting away But I'm not talking about getting away because you don't love that. but getting because you don't love that. but getting because you don't love that. but getting away so that you can go back in there away so that you can go back in there away so that you can go back in there and really throw yourselves uh self into and really throw yourselves uh self into and really throw yourselves uh self into the work. the work. the work. >> Yeah. And that's one of the reasons >> Yeah. And that's one of the reasons >> Yeah. And that's one of the reasons we're doing this podcast because it is we're doing this podcast because it is we're doing this podcast because it is so easy to grow discouraged, so easy to grow discouraged, so easy to grow discouraged, disillusioned, cynical about the work of disillusioned, cynical about the work of disillusioned, cynical about the work of ministry. Uh just as it's possible for ministry. Uh just as it's possible for ministry. Uh just as it's possible for any Christian to lose their first love any Christian to lose their first love any Christian to lose their first love in Christ, it's also possible to forget in Christ, it's also possible to forget in Christ, it's also possible to forget why we got into this in the first place. why we got into this in the first place. why we got into this in the first place. That's why we say we want to help That's why we say we want to help That's why we say we want to help pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry. So this is something we would ministry. So this is something we would ministry. So this is something we would encourage you as pastors to consider is encourage you as pastors to consider is encourage you as pastors to consider is whether through informal ways or more whether through informal ways or more whether through informal ways or more formal ones continuing to pursue formal ones continuing to pursue formal ones continuing to pursue education to stay sharp so that you will education to stay sharp so that you will education to stay sharp so that you will be more effective on the front lines of be more effective on the front lines of be more effective on the front lines of pastoral work. Matt, we've talked a pastoral work. Matt, we've talked a pastoral work. Matt, we've talked a little bit about how to grow in our little bit about how to grow in our little bit about how to grow in our knowledge of scripture, why it might be knowledge of scripture, why it might be knowledge of scripture, why it might be helpful sometimes to pursue formal helpful sometimes to pursue formal helpful sometimes to pursue formal theological studies as a pastor. One theological studies as a pastor. One theological studies as a pastor. One thing we haven't talked about is thing we haven't talked about is thing we haven't talked about is cultural issues. And I wonder, are there cultural issues. And I wonder, are there cultural issues. And I wonder, are there things that you do to stay ab breast of things that you do to stay ab breast of things that you do to stay ab breast of cultural issues and anything that you cultural issues and anything that you cultural issues and anything that you would commend to pastors, Bible would commend to pastors, Bible would commend to pastors, Bible believing pastors that want to be believing pastors that want to be believing pastors that want to be faithful to the word of God, but also faithful to the word of God, but also faithful to the word of God, but also who want to be aware of what's going on who want to be aware of what's going on who want to be aware of what's going on in the culture, want to be able to speak in the culture, want to be able to speak in the culture, want to be able to speak intelligently about certain issues that intelligently about certain issues that intelligently about certain issues that their people are dealing with every day.

their people are dealing with every day. their people are dealing with every day. What what what are what are the things What what what are what are the things What what what are what are the things that you do? Well, I try first and that you do? Well, I try first and that you do? Well, I try first and foremost to just keep a pulse on what my foremost to just keep a pulse on what my foremost to just keep a pulse on what my own people are thinking and about and own people are thinking and about and own people are thinking and about and processing and and worried about. Um, I processing and and worried about. Um, I processing and and worried about. Um, I do I do think it could be a tendency for do I do think it could be a tendency for do I do think it could be a tendency for us as pastors to be so dialed in uh to us as pastors to be so dialed in uh to us as pastors to be so dialed in uh to what's going on nationally or what's going on nationally or what's going on nationally or internationally that we aren't as dialed internationally that we aren't as dialed internationally that we aren't as dialed in to what our actual sheep are facing in to what our actual sheep are facing in to what our actual sheep are facing and thinking about. Having said that, as and thinking about. Having said that, as and thinking about. Having said that, as leaders, those who want to be out in leaders, those who want to be out in leaders, those who want to be out in front of conversations and and trends, front of conversations and and trends, front of conversations and and trends, um I I do try to stay ab breast not only um I I do try to stay ab breast not only um I I do try to stay ab breast not only of kind of the headlines in terms of of kind of the headlines in terms of of kind of the headlines in terms of current events, but also uh trends such current events, but also uh trends such current events, but also uh trends such as artificial intelligence and and ways as artificial intelligence and and ways as artificial intelligence and and ways that uh these things could create or that uh these things could create or that uh these things could create or will uh create all kinds of ethical will uh create all kinds of ethical will uh create all kinds of ethical challenges for us in ministry and for challenges for us in ministry and for challenges for us in ministry and for our people in the in the years and our people in the in the years and our people in the in the years and decades to Um, just to reference TGC decades to Um, just to reference TGC decades to Um, just to reference TGC again, that that's one of the main again, that that's one of the main again, that that's one of the main things that they want to do for pastors things that they want to do for pastors things that they want to do for pastors is to be kind of the best friend to the is to be kind of the best friend to the is to be kind of the best friend to the pastor pastor pastor >> by doing a lot of that by basically >> by doing a lot of that by basically >> by doing a lot of that by basically gathering experts who have done the deep gathering experts who have done the deep gathering experts who have done the deep dives, who have done the research on dives, who have done the research on dives, who have done the research on issues that you just frankly don't have issues that you just frankly don't have issues that you just frankly don't have the time to responsibly dive into. So, the time to responsibly dive into. So, the time to responsibly dive into. So, for example, you you are thinking about for example, you you are thinking about for example, you you are thinking about in vitro fertilization or you're in vitro fertilization or you're in vitro fertilization or you're thinking about transgenderism or you're thinking about transgenderism or you're thinking about transgenderism or you're you're thinking about um some kind of you're thinking about um some kind of you're thinking about um some kind of theological trend or or whatever the theological trend or or whatever the theological trend or or whatever the case may be. Um TGC and other

case may be. Um TGC and other case may be. Um TGC and other organizations are producing really organizations are producing really organizations are producing really helpful resources that can kind of bring helpful resources that can kind of bring helpful resources that can kind of bring you up to speed quickly on that. Um, and you up to speed quickly on that. Um, and you up to speed quickly on that. Um, and so I would I would say that through so I would I would say that through so I would I would say that through online websites, uh, through through online websites, uh, through through online websites, uh, through through reading, um, various, uh, cultural reading, um, various, uh, cultural reading, um, various, uh, cultural commentators, and I guess the last thing commentators, and I guess the last thing commentators, and I guess the last thing I would say on this, League, is, uh, I I would say on this, League, is, uh, I I would say on this, League, is, uh, I try as a pastor try as a pastor try as a pastor not only to think about and address the not only to think about and address the not only to think about and address the obvious cultural issues that everyone obvious cultural issues that everyone obvious cultural issues that everyone can kind of see, but also to go a bit can kind of see, but also to go a bit can kind of see, but also to go a bit subterranean and think about, for subterranean and think about, for subterranean and think about, for example, expressive individualism, which example, expressive individualism, which example, expressive individualism, which is the soil in our modern cultural is the soil in our modern cultural is the soil in our modern cultural moment out of which so many of these moment out of which so many of these moment out of which so many of these societal evils grow. And so I'm societal evils grow. And so I'm societal evils grow. And so I'm constantly in my sermons, even if I'm constantly in my sermons, even if I'm constantly in my sermons, even if I'm not uh in every sermon denouncing a not uh in every sermon denouncing a not uh in every sermon denouncing a particular societal evil or using a particular societal evil or using a particular societal evil or using a 50-cent word like expressive 50-cent word like expressive 50-cent word like expressive individualism, trying to remind us that, individualism, trying to remind us that, individualism, trying to remind us that, you know, we do not belong to ourselves. you know, we do not belong to ourselves. you know, we do not belong to ourselves. We belong body and soul to the Lord We belong body and soul to the Lord We belong body and soul to the Lord Jesus Christ. but that Satan is Jesus Christ. but that Satan is Jesus Christ. but that Satan is slithering in and trying to convince us slithering in and trying to convince us slithering in and trying to convince us that, hey, you're going to find freedom that, hey, you're going to find freedom that, hey, you're going to find freedom in life and joy if you do you, if you in life and joy if you do you, if you in life and joy if you do you, if you follow your heart, if you're true to follow your heart, if you're true to follow your heart, if you're true to yourself. Um, but that actually Jesus yourself. Um, but that actually Jesus yourself. Um, but that actually Jesus shows up and he says, no, it's not shows up and he says, no, it's not shows up and he says, no, it's not express yourself, it's deny yourself.

express yourself, it's deny yourself. express yourself, it's deny yourself. It's not follow your heart, it's follow It's not follow your heart, it's follow It's not follow your heart, it's follow me. It's not be true to yourself, it's me. It's not be true to yourself, it's me. It's not be true to yourself, it's be true to me. And I think the more that be true to me. And I think the more that be true to me. And I think the more that we can catechize our people and disciple we can catechize our people and disciple we can catechize our people and disciple them into thinking about the fact that them into thinking about the fact that them into thinking about the fact that this is God's world and we're living in this is God's world and we're living in this is God's world and we're living in it for his glory um and our enjoyment is it for his glory um and our enjoyment is it for his glory um and our enjoyment is a great way to just kind of undercut a great way to just kind of undercut a great way to just kind of undercut uh even even um preemptively undercut a uh even even um preemptively undercut a uh even even um preemptively undercut a lot of the challenges they'll be facing lot of the challenges they'll be facing lot of the challenges they'll be facing even if we don't know exactly what all even if we don't know exactly what all even if we don't know exactly what all of those challenges will look like in of those challenges will look like in of those challenges will look like in the years to come. What would you add the years to come. What would you add the years to come. What would you add for you know how do you stay a breast? for you know how do you stay a breast? for you know how do you stay a breast? >> No, that's good. But I I think one one >> No, that's good. But I I think one one >> No, that's good. But I I think one one of the one of the things that you just of the one of the things that you just of the one of the things that you just pointed out reminds us none of us can be pointed out reminds us none of us can be pointed out reminds us none of us can be an expert in all of these areas and and an expert in all of these areas and and an expert in all of these areas and and pastors shouldn't claim to be experts in pastors shouldn't claim to be experts in pastors shouldn't claim to be experts in these areas. And so we do need places these areas. And so we do need places these areas. And so we do need places where we can go. I have for years where we can go. I have for years where we can go. I have for years benefited from the work of say the benefited from the work of say the benefited from the work of say the center for bioeththics and human dignity center for bioeththics and human dignity center for bioeththics and human dignity to ask you know to get answers from a to ask you know to get answers from a to ask you know to get answers from a legal medical and ethical standpoint on legal medical and ethical standpoint on legal medical and ethical standpoint on things like in vitro fertilization and a things like in vitro fertilization and a things like in vitro fertilization and a whole range of fertility questions that whole range of fertility questions that whole range of fertility questions that come up. TGC provides that kind of come up. TGC provides that kind of come up. TGC provides that kind of material as well. But in both of those material as well. But in both of those material as well. But in both of those cases I'm I I don't that's not my area cases I'm I I don't that's not my area cases I'm I I don't that's not my area of expertise. I've taught medical ethics of expertise. I've taught medical ethics of expertise. I've taught medical ethics before, but that's still not an area of before, but that's still not an area of before, but that's still not an area of expertise. So, I want to make sure that expertise. So, I want to make sure that expertise. So, I want to make sure that I'm hearing from competent Christian I'm hearing from competent Christian I'm hearing from competent Christian lawyers, doctors, uh, counselors,

lawyers, doctors, uh, counselors, lawyers, doctors, uh, counselors, medical ethicists who have thought medical ethicists who have thought medical ethicists who have thought through these things for me and can through these things for me and can through these things for me and can distill the mountain of information that distill the mountain of information that distill the mountain of information that there is about it so that if I do speak there is about it so that if I do speak there is about it so that if I do speak to it, I speak responsibly. And it's to it, I speak responsibly. And it's to it, I speak responsibly. And it's very easy in our day to get the get very easy in our day to get the get very easy in our day to get the get somebody's latest hot take on issue. somebody's latest hot take on issue. somebody's latest hot take on issue. It's usually not very helpful. And and It's usually not very helpful. And and It's usually not very helpful. And and by the way, the other thing you said is by the way, the other thing you said is by the way, the other thing you said is you want to try and get underneath you want to try and get underneath you want to try and get underneath things. I think that's such a good word. things. I think that's such a good word. things. I think that's such a good word. Sometimes Sometimes Sometimes underneath the hot buttons of our day underneath the hot buttons of our day underneath the hot buttons of our day are far more important issues than the are far more important issues than the are far more important issues than the hot buttons themselves that we never pay hot buttons themselves that we never pay hot buttons themselves that we never pay attention to because our eyes are on the attention to because our eyes are on the attention to because our eyes are on the hot buttons. And uh pastors need to hot buttons. And uh pastors need to hot buttons. And uh pastors need to think about that. And I let me say the think about that. And I let me say the think about that. And I let me say the other thing that you said that I think other thing that you said that I think other thing that you said that I think is so important is pastor your c your is so important is pastor your c your is so important is pastor your c your congregation not the internet. You know congregation not the internet. You know congregation not the internet. You know the internet is not your congregation. the internet is not your congregation. the internet is not your congregation. Your congregation is your congregation. Your congregation is your congregation. Your congregation is your congregation. And thank heavens 96% of them don't know And thank heavens 96% of them don't know And thank heavens 96% of them don't know the latest thing that has been said in the latest thing that has been said in the latest thing that has been said in our neck of the woods on the internet.

our neck of the woods on the internet. our neck of the woods on the internet. You know they they're out there living You know they they're out there living You know they they're out there living their lives and and and they're not their lives and and and they're not their lives and and and they're not watching what is on X or on Instagram or watching what is on X or on Instagram or watching what is on X or on Instagram or on social media somewhere. And so on social media somewhere. And so on social media somewhere. And so knowing what the issues are for your knowing what the issues are for your knowing what the issues are for your congregation is a big deal. I had my my congregation is a big deal. I had my my congregation is a big deal. I had my my congregation in Jackson, I had had 200 congregation in Jackson, I had had 200 congregation in Jackson, I had had 200 attorneys in the congregation. I had 200 attorneys in the congregation. I had 200 attorneys in the congregation. I had 200 doctors and nurses in the congregation doctors and nurses in the congregation doctors and nurses in the congregation and we were pretty close to the state and we were pretty close to the state and we were pretty close to the state capital. So when things were roing in capital. So when things were roing in capital. So when things were roing in the legal community or the medical the legal community or the medical the legal community or the medical community or in government, I I was community or in government, I I was community or in government, I I was going to have I had lo a lot of going to have I had lo a lot of going to have I had lo a lot of lobbyists in the congregation. they lobbyists in the congregation. they lobbyists in the congregation. they there were going to be I knew that those there were going to be I knew that those there were going to be I knew that those issues were going to be in their lives issues were going to be in their lives issues were going to be in their lives and I wanted to be able to be aware of and I wanted to be able to be aware of and I wanted to be able to be aware of those things. I I've actually found those things. I I've actually found those things. I I've actually found people that could help me in that area. people that could help me in that area. people that could help me in that area. I've got a I've got a guy that I can I've got a I've got a guy that I can I've got a I've got a guy that I can text at any time who's a lawyer. He's a text at any time who's a lawyer. He's a text at any time who's a lawyer. He's a Christian. He's a journalist and I can Christian. He's a journalist and I can Christian. He's a journalist and I can ask him questions about, hey, what's ask him questions about, hey, what's ask him questions about, hey, what's going on in the there I see this big going on in the there I see this big going on in the there I see this big debate in the state about this. Can you debate in the state about this. Can you debate in the state about this. Can you tell me what's going on? and I can trust tell me what's going on? and I can trust tell me what's going on? and I can trust him to give me good competent analysis him to give me good competent analysis him to give me good competent analysis of a situation that otherwise I just of a situation that otherwise I just of a situation that otherwise I just have to be dependent upon whatever is have to be dependent upon whatever is have to be dependent upon whatever is being shared in the media that day which being shared in the media that day which being shared in the media that day which is often not not for any fault of the is often not not for any fault of the is often not not for any fault of the journalist themselves but they just journalist themselves but they just journalist themselves but they just can't be complete and they're not immune can't be complete and they're not immune can't be complete and they're not immune to the desire to have a clickbaity title to the desire to have a clickbaity title to the desire to have a clickbaity title on something and so I can go to somebody

on something and so I can go to somebody on something and so I can go to somebody who doesn't have to draw that kind of who doesn't have to draw that kind of who doesn't have to draw that kind of attention to give me a breakdown on it attention to give me a breakdown on it attention to give me a breakdown on it and Oh, I see what's going on. There's a and Oh, I see what's going on. There's a and Oh, I see what's going on. There's a big debate right now on school choice in big debate right now on school choice in big debate right now on school choice in in Mississippi and there are, you know, in Mississippi and there are, you know, in Mississippi and there are, you know, people arguing this and that and the people arguing this and that and the people arguing this and that and the other. And so it's really nice for me to other. And so it's really nice for me to other. And so it's really nice for me to have somebody that I can go to and say, have somebody that I can go to and say, have somebody that I can go to and say, "Can you fill me in on why people are "Can you fill me in on why people are "Can you fill me in on why people are saying this and why people are saying saying this and why people are saying saying this and why people are saying that and what are the issues in the that and what are the issues in the that and what are the issues in the legislature about this and just let me legislature about this and just let me legislature about this and just let me be aware of this cuz I'm going to have be aware of this cuz I'm going to have be aware of this cuz I'm going to have people in my congregation, some of them people in my congregation, some of them people in my congregation, some of them that are having to vote on this, some that are having to vote on this, some that are having to vote on this, some people that are involved in lobbying for people that are involved in lobbying for people that are involved in lobbying for one side or the other. I need to know one side or the other. I need to know one side or the other. I need to know what's going on as a pastor." And we do what's going on as a pastor." And we do what's going on as a pastor." And we do want to disciple our people through want to disciple our people through want to disciple our people through these difficult um issues because if we these difficult um issues because if we these difficult um issues because if we don't, someone else will. Um and you don't, someone else will. Um and you don't, someone else will. Um and you know there there's a role for a weather know there there's a role for a weather know there there's a role for a weather reporter who's telling you what the reporter who's telling you what the reporter who's telling you what the weather's going to be tomorrow. There's weather's going to be tomorrow. There's weather's going to be tomorrow. There's a role for a meteorologist who is a role for a meteorologist who is a role for a meteorologist who is charting out what the weather is going charting out what the weather is going charting out what the weather is going to be like for the next few weeks. But to be like for the next few weeks. But to be like for the next few weeks. But there's also a role for the there's also a role for the there's also a role for the climatologist who's studying weather climatologist who's studying weather climatologist who's studying weather patterns over the course of decades. And patterns over the course of decades. And patterns over the course of decades. And as a pastor, we don't want to only be as a pastor, we don't want to only be as a pastor, we don't want to only be the kind of climatologist that's the kind of climatologist that's the kind of climatologist that's >> solely talking about these abstract >> solely talking about these abstract >> solely talking about these abstract cultural trends and is never having the cultural trends and is never having the cultural trends and is never having the courage to speak truth to power and to courage to speak truth to power and to courage to speak truth to power and to into um and to confront societal evils into um and to confront societal evils into um and to confront societal evils head on. On the other hand, if we let head on. On the other hand, if we let head on. On the other hand, if we let the headlines dictate what we are worked

the headlines dictate what we are worked the headlines dictate what we are worked up about and what we're talking about, up about and what we're talking about, up about and what we're talking about, we're just going to be that weather we're just going to be that weather we're just going to be that weather reporter and we're [music] not going to reporter and we're [music] not going to reporter and we're [music] not going to actually be preparing our people for a actually be preparing our people for a actually be preparing our people for a lifetime of faithfulness. lifetime of faithfulness. lifetime of faithfulness. >> Yes. Well said. >> Yes. Well said. >> Yes. Well said. >> We hope this episode of the Everyday >> We hope this episode of the Everyday >> We hope this episode of the Everyday Pastor has been an encouragement to you. Pastor has been an encouragement to you. Pastor has been an encouragement to you. Uh we would love it if you take a moment Uh we would love it if you take a moment Uh we would love it if you take a moment to share it with a friend or another to share it with a friend or another to share it with a friend or another person that you think could benefit from person that you think could benefit from person that you think could benefit from it because we do want to help pastors it because we do want to help pastors it because we do want to help pastors [music] find fresh joy in the work of [music] find fresh joy in the work of [music] find fresh joy in the work of ministry.