Planting a Church [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 54]

If you're ready to go deeper in If you're ready to go deeper in theology, Southern Seminary's PhD theology, Southern Seminary's PhD theology, Southern Seminary's PhD programs were built for you. With programs were built for you. With programs were built for you. With flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to modular to in-person, Southern makes modular to in-person, Southern makes modular to in-person, Southern makes serious doctoral-level theological serious doctoral-level theological serious doctoral-level theological training accessible to the pastor called training accessible to the pastor called training accessible to the pastor called to bring the depth of God's word to to bring the depth of God's word to to bring the depth of God's word to God's people. Study with faculty God's people. Study with faculty God's people. Study with faculty committed to strengthening the church committed to strengthening the church committed to strengthening the church and bring that depth back to the people and bring that depth back to the people and bring that depth back to the people you lead. Visit sbts.edu/phd >> The same muscles that are required for >> The same muscles that are required for raising money are the same muscles for raising money are the same muscles for raising money are the same muscles for sharing the gospel. You're going up to sharing the gospel. You're going up to sharing the gospel. You're going up to someone someone someone >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> and you're presenting something and >> and you're presenting something and >> and you're presenting something and there's the risk of rejection. There's there's the risk of rejection. There's there's the risk of rejection. There's the risk of being told absolutely not. the risk of being told absolutely not. the risk of being told absolutely not. Please get out of here. And so, I think Please get out of here. And so, I think Please get out of here. And so, I think it's it's a good thing [music] and it's it's it's a good thing [music] and it's it's it's a good thing [music] and it's a humbling thing um to to ask people to a humbling thing um to to ask people to a humbling thing um to to ask people to consider in faith giving to the work of consider in faith giving to the work of consider in faith giving to the work of your [music] ministry.

>> [music] >> [music] >> Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a >> Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a >> Welcome back to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Smethurst. Matt Smethurst. Matt Smethurst. >> And I'm Ligon Duncan. >> And I'm Ligon Duncan. >> And I'm Ligon Duncan. >> And we are going to be talking about >> And we are going to be talking about >> And we are going to be talking about church planting. Uh this is something church planting. Uh this is something church planting. Uh this is something that every church ought to be thinking that every church ought to be thinking that every church ought to be thinking about, praying toward, hoping that they about, praying toward, hoping that they about, praying toward, hoping that they get to do it at some point. And uh let's get to do it at some point. And uh let's get to do it at some point. And uh let's talk about why that is and how to do it talk about why that is and how to do it talk about why that is and how to do it well. When you think about this topic of well. When you think about this topic of well. When you think about this topic of church planting, Ligon, is it something church planting, Ligon, is it something church planting, Ligon, is it something that you've heard a lot about just in that you've heard a lot about just in that you've heard a lot about just in recent years or is it something that in recent years or is it something that in recent years or is it something that in most of your ministry as a Christian most of your ministry as a Christian most of your ministry as a Christian you're familiar with? you're familiar with? you're familiar with? >> No, growing up because the PCA was a new >> No, growing up because the PCA was a new >> No, growing up because the PCA was a new denomination, 1973 is when we began, it denomination, 1973 is when we began, it denomination, 1973 is when we began, it was on the radar screen from the was on the radar screen from the was on the radar screen from the beginning. There was a recognition we beginning. There was a recognition we beginning. There was a recognition we need to plant churches. There was a call need to plant churches. There was a call need to plant churches. There was a call for people to consider church planting. for people to consider church planting. for people to consider church planting. Our home missions agency, which Our home missions agency, which Our home missions agency, which initially was called Mission to the US initially was called Mission to the US initially was called Mission to the US and is now called Mission to North and is now called Mission to North and is now called Mission to North America because we have congregations in America because we have congregations in America because we have congregations in Canada and the US. From the very Canada and the US. From the very Canada and the US. From the very beginning was interested in this. Tim beginning was interested in this. Tim beginning was interested in this. Tim Keller was a part of that from the very Keller was a part of that from the very Keller was a part of that from the very early days of the denomination. His early days of the denomination. His early days of the denomination. His friend Terry Geiger, very involved in friend Terry Geiger, very involved in friend Terry Geiger, very involved in this. So, I heard a lot about this as a this. So, I heard a lot about this as a this. So, I heard a lot about this as a teenager in the PCA. And then as a young teenager in the PCA. And then as a young teenager in the PCA. And then as a young seminary student, I had a lot of friends seminary student, I had a lot of friends seminary student, I had a lot of friends that were preparing for church planning.

that were preparing for church planning. that were preparing for church planning. We had a church planning track in the We had a church planning track in the We had a church planning track in the curriculum. We had professors that were curriculum. We had professors that were curriculum. We had professors that were experts in that area. Don McNair was a experts in that area. Don McNair was a experts in that area. Don McNair was a guy who was well known for his guy who was well known for his guy who was well known for his expertise in the area of church expertise in the area of church expertise in the area of church planning. So, it was definitely on the planning. So, it was definitely on the planning. So, it was definitely on the radar screen. And then I got to serve radar screen. And then I got to serve radar screen. And then I got to serve pastors pastors pastors who really cared about church planning. who really cared about church planning. who really cared about church planning. My pastor in St. Louis, Rod Stortz, My pastor in St. Louis, Rod Stortz, My pastor in St. Louis, Rod Stortz, cared about church planning. I worked cared about church planning. I worked cared about church planning. I worked for a man named Mike Ross in Jackson at for a man named Mike Ross in Jackson at for a man named Mike Ross in Jackson at Trinity Presbyterian Church who cared Trinity Presbyterian Church who cared Trinity Presbyterian Church who cared about church planning and actually got about church planning and actually got about church planning and actually got to help plan a church in Natchez, to help plan a church in Natchez, to help plan a church in Natchez, Mississippi while I was working at Mississippi while I was working at Mississippi while I was working at Trinity Presbyterian Church. So, I don't Trinity Presbyterian Church. So, I don't Trinity Presbyterian Church. So, I don't have the kind of experience you have in have the kind of experience you have in have the kind of experience you have in a church plant, but I did get to be a church plant, but I did get to be a church plant, but I did get to be involved in that wonderful phase where involved in that wonderful phase where involved in that wonderful phase where you're taking a core group up to the you're taking a core group up to the you're taking a core group up to the point of particularizing as a local point of particularizing as a local point of particularizing as a local church. And that's an exciting thing. church. And that's an exciting thing. church. And that's an exciting thing. Now, the slog that happens after that is Now, the slog that happens after that is Now, the slog that happens after that is what you understand far better than I what you understand far better than I what you understand far better than I do, but I got to at least be in that do, but I got to at least be in that do, but I got to at least be in that first fun part of church planning. Yeah, first fun part of church planning. Yeah, first fun part of church planning. Yeah, in in terms of this conversation, I in in terms of this conversation, I in in terms of this conversation, I think it's helpful to remember first and think it's helpful to remember first and think it's helpful to remember first and foremost that the ultimate church foremost that the ultimate church foremost that the ultimate church planter is the Holy Spirit.

planter is the Holy Spirit. planter is the Holy Spirit. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And also that church planting is not >> And also that church planting is not >> And also that church planting is not something that a bunch of pastors in the something that a bunch of pastors in the something that a bunch of pastors in the '70s, '80s, and '90s made up. '70s, '80s, and '90s made up. '70s, '80s, and '90s made up. Think about how the earliest Christians Think about how the earliest Christians Think about how the earliest Christians understood and applied the Great understood and applied the Great understood and applied the Great Commission. Go make disciples of all Commission. Go make disciples of all Commission. Go make disciples of all nations. Well, we see how they applied nations. Well, we see how they applied nations. Well, we see how they applied that if we just turn to the book of that if we just turn to the book of that if we just turn to the book of Acts. And the answer is church planting. Acts. And the answer is church planting. Acts. And the answer is church planting. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> So, that's what they understood would be >> So, that's what they understood would be >> So, that's what they understood would be entailed in accomplishing the Great entailed in accomplishing the Great entailed in accomplishing the Great Commission. Um and I've recently started Commission. Um and I've recently started Commission. Um and I've recently started a series in the book of Acts and I'm a series in the book of Acts and I'm a series in the book of Acts and I'm excited to uh lead our congregation to excited to uh lead our congregation to excited to uh lead our congregation to try to think wisely and well about try to think wisely and well about try to think wisely and well about church planting because I think there's church planting because I think there's church planting because I think there's a lot of a lot of a lot of uh uh uh hype around church planning uh that it hype around church planning uh that it hype around church planning uh that it you know, I'm I'm all for the you know, I'm I'm all for the you know, I'm I'm all for the excitement, but I do sometimes think excitement, but I do sometimes think excitement, but I do sometimes think there can be hype and speed and and a there can be hype and speed and and a there can be hype and speed and and a rush to rush to rush to uh just get the results of more and more uh just get the results of more and more uh just get the results of more and more church plants without really knowing church plants without really knowing church plants without really knowing what we're planting. You know, Vince what we're planting. You know, Vince what we're planting. You know, Vince Lombardi famously said, "Gentlemen, this Lombardi famously said, "Gentlemen, this Lombardi famously said, "Gentlemen, this is a football." And I think in church is a football." And I think in church is a football." And I think in church planning conversations, we we need to be planning conversations, we we need to be planning conversations, we we need to be sure we have a moment where we say, sure we have a moment where we say, sure we have a moment where we say, "Gentlemen, this is a church." We have "Gentlemen, this is a church." We have "Gentlemen, this is a church." We have to understand what it is we're actually to understand what it is we're actually to understand what it is we're actually wanting to reproduce wanting to reproduce wanting to reproduce by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, by the power of the Holy Spirit. So, um that is, I think, just in terms of um that is, I think, just in terms of um that is, I think, just in terms of table setting for this conversation, table setting for this conversation, table setting for this conversation, it's helpful to know that it's helpful to know that it's helpful to know that >> And amen to that. And I lived through >> And amen to that. And I lived through >> And amen to that. And I lived through that era of the heady days of you still that era of the heady days of you still that era of the heady days of you still had evangelical population growth that had evangelical population growth that had evangelical population growth that was driving the church planting

was driving the church planting was driving the church planting movement. You had a lot of transfer movement. You had a lot of transfer movement. You had a lot of transfer growth that was a part of that. You had growth that was a part of that. You had growth that was a part of that. You had population shifts that people didn't population shifts that people didn't population shifts that people didn't adequately take into consideration about adequately take into consideration about adequately take into consideration about how much of that was going to impact how much of that was going to impact how much of that was going to impact regional church planting. And you did regional church planting. And you did regional church planting. And you did have this sort of triumphalism about it. have this sort of triumphalism about it. have this sort of triumphalism about it. I think your generation not only looks I think your generation not only looks I think your generation not only looks back and sees the mistakes that my back and sees the mistakes that my back and sees the mistakes that my generation made, but you're in an area generation made, but you're in an area generation made, but you're in an area where church planting, you're actually where church planting, you're actually where church planting, you're actually you are going into headwinds you are going into headwinds you are going into headwinds as you plant. And that's actually maybe as you plant. And that's actually maybe as you plant. And that's actually maybe a healthier setting to do it because you a healthier setting to do it because you a healthier setting to do it because you have to be really careful about what is have to be really careful about what is have to be really careful about what is a church, what is church membership, a church, what is church membership, a church, what is church membership, what are we here to do? What's our what are we here to do? What's our what are we here to do? What's our mission? mission? mission? Evangelism is not as easy in a nominal Evangelism is not as easy in a nominal Evangelism is not as easy in a nominal in in a in in in in a in in in in a in in >> secular >> secular >> secular >> secular setting as it was in a nominal >> secular setting as it was in a nominal >> secular setting as it was in a nominal setting and I'm I'm obviously the Holy setting and I'm I'm obviously the Holy setting and I'm I'm obviously the Holy Spirit that converts people etc. but you Spirit that converts people etc. but you Spirit that converts people etc. but you can get membership that may not can get membership that may not can get membership that may not understand fully what it is to be a understand fully what it is to be a understand fully what it is to be a disciple of Christ in a nominal setting.

disciple of Christ in a nominal setting. disciple of Christ in a nominal setting. A secular setting is harder to get them A secular setting is harder to get them A secular setting is harder to get them across the threshold into the into the across the threshold into the into the across the threshold into the into the gathering of people. So it's maybe gathering of people. So it's maybe gathering of people. So it's maybe there's some good things about the there's some good things about the there's some good things about the challenges that we face right now. Now challenges that we face right now. Now challenges that we face right now. Now tell tell me just looking back when you tell tell me just looking back when you tell tell me just looking back when you started church, you didn't just say I've started church, you didn't just say I've started church, you didn't just say I've got to be a church planner, right? How got to be a church planner, right? How got to be a church planner, right? How did how did you get into church did how did you get into church did how did you get into church planning? planning? planning? >> Yeah, I did not have a church plant or >> Yeah, I did not have a church plant or >> Yeah, I did not have a church plant or bust mentality. I was serving as a lay bust mentality. I was serving as a lay bust mentality. I was serving as a lay elder at a church in Louisville, elder at a church in Louisville, elder at a church in Louisville, Kentucky and through talking with my Kentucky and through talking with my Kentucky and through talking with my fellow elders they were excited to fellow elders they were excited to fellow elders they were excited to support me with whatever I sensed the support me with whatever I sensed the support me with whatever I sensed the Lord was leading me to do and I kind of Lord was leading me to do and I kind of Lord was leading me to do and I kind of narrowed it down alongside my wife from narrowed it down alongside my wife from narrowed it down alongside my wife from wanting to be back on the East Coast wanting to be back on the East Coast wanting to be back on the East Coast pastoring. The East Coast is where both pastoring. The East Coast is where both pastoring. The East Coast is where both of us were from. It's kind of narrowing of us were from. It's kind of narrowing of us were from. It's kind of narrowing it down to the state of Virginia and it down to the state of Virginia and it down to the state of Virginia and then even more so to the city of then even more so to the city of then even more so to the city of Richmond and I just wanted to pastor Richmond and I just wanted to pastor Richmond and I just wanted to pastor in Richmond. in Richmond. in Richmond. And I didn't know how I would do that. And I didn't know how I would do that. And I didn't know how I would do that. So I was open to taking an existing So I was open to taking an existing So I was open to taking an existing pastorate at a church but just through pastorate at a church but just through pastorate at a church but just through conversations with some friends of mine conversations with some friends of mine conversations with some friends of mine who were already living in Richmond, it who were already living in Richmond, it who were already living in Richmond, it became clear that maybe church planting became clear that maybe church planting became clear that maybe church planting and not just friends, actually a couple and not just friends, actually a couple and not just friends, actually a couple local pastors in Richmond. When when local pastors in Richmond. When when local pastors in Richmond. When when other pastors are looking you in the eye other pastors are looking you in the eye other pastors are looking you in the eye and saying, you should come plant.

and saying, you should come plant. and saying, you should come plant. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> The rate of new healthy churches is not >> The rate of new healthy churches is not >> The rate of new healthy churches is not keeping up with the population growth. A keeping up with the population growth. A keeping up with the population growth. A that speaks to their that speaks to their that speaks to their catholicity and generosity but B that catholicity and generosity but B that catholicity and generosity but B that shows you oh okay that shows you oh okay that shows you oh okay that this is not just me swooping in, this is not just me swooping in, this is not just me swooping in, parachuting in, trying to parachuting in, trying to parachuting in, trying to you know, establish the the kingdom of you know, establish the the kingdom of you know, establish the the kingdom of God on earth. No, I'm coming in wanting God on earth. No, I'm coming in wanting God on earth. No, I'm coming in wanting to lock arms with other faithful to lock arms with other faithful to lock arms with other faithful brothers and sisters in churches that brothers and sisters in churches that brothers and sisters in churches that are are are doing good gospel work in Richmond. doing good gospel work in Richmond. doing good gospel work in Richmond. >> Did you do assessment before you went >> Did you do assessment before you went >> Did you do assessment before you went into church planning? into church planning? into church planning? >> When I got to Richmond, yes. So, it it >> When I got to Richmond, yes. So, it it >> When I got to Richmond, yes. So, it it began with announcing to our church in began with announcing to our church in began with announcing to our church in Louisville, our sending church, the the Louisville, our sending church, the the Louisville, our sending church, the the plan. So, you know, talked it through plan. So, you know, talked it through plan. So, you know, talked it through with the elders and then we announced it with the elders and then we announced it with the elders and then we announced it to the church and and we were recruiting to the church and and we were recruiting to the church and and we were recruiting people to people to people to consider coming with us. So, we had a consider coming with us. So, we had a consider coming with us. So, we had a monthly, what I call just prayer and monthly, what I call just prayer and monthly, what I call just prayer and pizza gatherings where in the hour pizza gatherings where in the hour pizza gatherings where in the hour before our monthly members meetings on a before our monthly members meetings on a before our monthly members meetings on a Wednesday night, anyone who is Wednesday night, anyone who is Wednesday night, anyone who is interested in learning more about this interested in learning more about this interested in learning more about this potential work potential work potential work in in in what was for most people a random state.

what was for most people a random state. what was for most people a random state. So, in moving to Virginia, I was my wife So, in moving to Virginia, I was my wife So, in moving to Virginia, I was my wife and I were moving back to our home and I were moving back to our home and I were moving back to our home state. state. state. But, for most of the people in our But, for most of the people in our But, for most of the people in our church there in Louisville, this is just church there in Louisville, this is just church there in Louisville, this is just a random place 600 miles east and we a random place 600 miles east and we a random place 600 miles east and we ended up by God's grace having 11 other ended up by God's grace having 11 other ended up by God's grace having 11 other adults move with us. adults move with us. adults move with us. And humanly speaking, like they were the And humanly speaking, like they were the And humanly speaking, like they were the real heroes of the story because again, real heroes of the story because again, real heroes of the story because again, I was moving back to my home state to be I was moving back to my home state to be I was moving back to my home state to be the lead guy. They were moving to a the lead guy. They were moving to a the lead guy. They were moving to a random state for no leadership position, random state for no leadership position, random state for no leadership position, but they had the ability to take remote but they had the ability to take remote but they had the ability to take remote jobs and they just had a vision for jobs and they just had a vision for jobs and they just had a vision for living a faithful Christian life in living a faithful Christian life in living a faithful Christian life in another place that needed a healthy another place that needed a healthy another place that needed a healthy gospel preaching church. And gospel preaching church. And gospel preaching church. And those 11 originally came with us and those 11 originally came with us and those 11 originally came with us and since then, a few others from our since then, a few others from our since then, a few others from our sending church have have come. sending church have have come. sending church have have come. >> Do you see other churches in the part of >> Do you see other churches in the part of >> Do you see other churches in the part of the SBC world that you occupy or the TGC the SBC world that you occupy or the TGC the SBC world that you occupy or the TGC world that you occupy doing things like world that you occupy doing things like world that you occupy doing things like that? Like where a church will actually that? Like where a church will actually that? Like where a church will actually send people out to another state? send people out to another state? send people out to another state? >> It's a >> It's a >> It's a >> It's happened from time to time. I mean, >> It's happened from time to time. I mean, >> It's happened from time to time. I mean, uh you think of our friend Ben Lacey uh you think of our friend Ben Lacey uh you think of our friend Ben Lacey being planted out of Capitol Hill being planted out of Capitol Hill being planted out of Capitol Hill Baptist in Fort Worth, Texas. And then Baptist in Fort Worth, Texas. And then Baptist in Fort Worth, Texas. And then he had some folks from CHBC go with he had some folks from CHBC go with he had some folks from CHBC go with them. But it's it's rare and them. But it's it's rare and them. But it's it's rare and I it's not lost on me how blessed I am.

I it's not lost on me how blessed I am. I it's not lost on me how blessed I am. In fact, one angle on it is God knew In fact, one angle on it is God knew In fact, one angle on it is God knew that if Matt's going to succeed, he's that if Matt's going to succeed, he's that if Matt's going to succeed, he's going to need a lot of help. going to need a lot of help. going to need a lot of help. Uh and so the the the Lord I I don't I Uh and so the the the Lord I I don't I Uh and so the the the Lord I I don't I really don't take for granted the really don't take for granted the really don't take for granted the amazing help the Lord gave me and and amazing help the Lord gave me and and amazing help the Lord gave me and and and the folks that came with us, by the and the folks that came with us, by the and the folks that came with us, by the way league, were not just sort of random way league, were not just sort of random way league, were not just sort of random obscure members. These were like home obscure members. These were like home obscure members. These were like home group leaders in the church. Uh one of group leaders in the church. Uh one of group leaders in the church. Uh one of the brothers became a founding elder for the brothers became a founding elder for the brothers became a founding elder for me. So really mature people just safe me. So really mature people just safe me. So really mature people just safe pairs of hands, pairs of hands, pairs of hands, um which gave us a huge running start um which gave us a huge running start um which gave us a huge running start when when it came to to culture. And one when when it came to to culture. And one when when it came to to culture. And one one note I want to sound on this is that one note I want to sound on this is that one note I want to sound on this is that I think that there's a huge danger among I think that there's a huge danger among I think that there's a huge danger among church planters. And you see this in the church planters. And you see this in the church planters. And you see this in the literature, you hear this at the literature, you hear this at the literature, you hear this at the conferences. conferences. conferences. You You You You can be tempted to act as if you're You can be tempted to act as if you're You can be tempted to act as if you're bringing a new product onto the market bringing a new product onto the market bringing a new product onto the market and therefore, in order to sell your and therefore, in order to sell your and therefore, in order to sell your product, you major on what makes you product, you major on what makes you product, you major on what makes you distinct. distinct. distinct. >> Mhm.

>> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And >> And >> And on a human level that that makes sense, on a human level that that makes sense, on a human level that that makes sense, but I think it's really dangerous within but I think it's really dangerous within but I think it's really dangerous within the kingdom of God. So from the very the kingdom of God. So from the very the kingdom of God. So from the very beginning, we have wanted um and I've beginning, we have wanted um and I've beginning, we have wanted um and I've tried so hard as a pastor to promote tried so hard as a pastor to promote tried so hard as a pastor to promote catholicity, lower case C. catholicity, lower case C. catholicity, lower case C. Um every Sunday morning in our pastoral Um every Sunday morning in our pastoral Um every Sunday morning in our pastoral prayer, I'm praying for another local prayer, I'm praying for another local prayer, I'm praying for another local church in Richmond by name. Uh I try to church in Richmond by name. Uh I try to church in Richmond by name. Uh I try to not pray generically for them. I try to not pray generically for them. I try to not pray generically for them. I try to actually pray for the very passage there actually pray for the very passage there actually pray for the very passage there that's being preached this morning. that's being preached this morning. that's being preached this morning. I'm praying that the Lord would grow and I'm praying that the Lord would grow and I'm praying that the Lord would grow and prosper that congregation. Um and I'm prosper that congregation. Um and I'm prosper that congregation. Um and I'm constantly trying to remind my people constantly trying to remind my people constantly trying to remind my people that um that um that um the the kingdom of God is gloriously the the kingdom of God is gloriously the the kingdom of God is gloriously bigger bigger bigger than what we're doing. In fact, if we're than what we're doing. In fact, if we're than what we're doing. In fact, if we're going to reach Richmond, Virginia for going to reach Richmond, Virginia for going to reach Richmond, Virginia for Jesus Christ, we're going to need all Jesus Christ, we're going to need all Jesus Christ, we're going to need all kinds of churches that preach the kinds of churches that preach the kinds of churches that preach the gospel. And I'm just happy to be a part gospel. And I'm just happy to be a part gospel. And I'm just happy to be a part of that. And so we always want to to say of that. And so we always want to to say of that. And so we always want to to say that the most important thing that the most important thing that the most important thing about our church is not anything that about our church is not anything that about our church is not anything that makes us distinct. The most important makes us distinct. The most important makes us distinct. The most important thing about our church is what we share thing about our church is what we share thing about our church is what we share in common with every other true church in common with every other true church in common with every other true church since Jesus Christ.

since Jesus Christ. since Jesus Christ. >> That's good. Now, you you said you did >> That's good. Now, you you said you did >> That's good. Now, you you said you did assessment once you got here. To assess assessment once you got here. To assess assessment once you got here. To assess assessment, tell me tell me what do you assessment, tell me tell me what do you assessment, tell me tell me what do you have any advice and counsel for for guys have any advice and counsel for for guys have any advice and counsel for for guys that are considering church planting and that are considering church planting and that are considering church planting and and assessment? What what were some of and assessment? What what were some of and assessment? What what were some of the positives for you there? the positives for you there? the positives for you there? >> The main positive is being coached by >> The main positive is being coached by >> The main positive is being coached by people who have walked the road you're people who have walked the road you're people who have walked the road you're about to walk. And then just the immense about to walk. And then just the immense about to walk. And then just the immense wealth of experience that you can get wealth of experience that you can get wealth of experience that you can get from people, even if um from people, even if um from people, even if um some of their theological instincts some of their theological instincts some of their theological instincts might be different than yours. So we might be different than yours. So we might be different than yours. So we were assessed through our denomination, were assessed through our denomination, were assessed through our denomination, and I think overall it was helpful. and I think overall it was helpful. and I think overall it was helpful. Uh the kind of church we've planted is Uh the kind of church we've planted is Uh the kind of church we've planted is different uh in in some ways than a lot different uh in in some ways than a lot different uh in in some ways than a lot of other churches in our denomination. of other churches in our denomination. of other churches in our denomination. Um but I still gleaned a lot uh from Um but I still gleaned a lot uh from Um but I still gleaned a lot uh from those days of training and assessment. those days of training and assessment. those days of training and assessment. And I'm grateful for it. And also, as I And I'm grateful for it. And also, as I And I'm grateful for it. And also, as I mentioned, there were other pastors in mentioned, there were other pastors in mentioned, there were other pastors in Richmond that really helped me think Richmond that really helped me think Richmond that really helped me think about church planting in ways that I about church planting in ways that I about church planting in ways that I otherwise wouldn't have. Uh so for otherwise wouldn't have. Uh so for otherwise wouldn't have. Uh so for example, I have an evangelical Anglican example, I have an evangelical Anglican example, I have an evangelical Anglican friend, a childhood friend, here in friend, a childhood friend, here in friend, a childhood friend, here in Richmond named Dan, and he helped me Richmond named Dan, and he helped me Richmond named Dan, and he helped me think about the reality of the think about the reality of the think about the reality of the this counterintuitive reality.

this counterintuitive reality. this counterintuitive reality. If your church plant actually is If your church plant actually is If your church plant actually is reaching the people that you say you reaching the people that you say you reaching the people that you say you want to reach, i.e. non-Christians, want to reach, i.e. non-Christians, want to reach, i.e. non-Christians, in other words, if if you're actually in other words, if if you're actually in other words, if if you're actually seeing conversion growth and not just seeing conversion growth and not just seeing conversion growth and not just transfer growth. And I think it's it's transfer growth. And I think it's it's transfer growth. And I think it's it's fine if other believers fine if other believers fine if other believers want to want to leave their church to want to want to leave their church to want to want to leave their church to come to yours, come to yours, come to yours, um I should say it's it's it's sometimes um I should say it's it's it's sometimes um I should say it's it's it's sometimes fine. Uh there were people who wanted to fine. Uh there were people who wanted to fine. Uh there were people who wanted to leave their church and come to ours and leave their church and come to ours and leave their church and come to ours and we actually discouraged them from doing we actually discouraged them from doing we actually discouraged them from doing so cuz we weren't just looking for We so cuz we weren't just looking for We so cuz we weren't just looking for We were for like-mindedness. were for like-mindedness. were for like-mindedness. Um Um Um but if you're actually reaching the but if you're actually reaching the but if you're actually reaching the lost, lost, lost, you're going to struggle financially. you're going to struggle financially. you're going to struggle financially. This is helpful for for uh talking about This is helpful for for uh talking about This is helpful for for uh talking about fundraising. fundraising. fundraising. Now, why is that? Well, it's because Now, why is that? Well, it's because Now, why is that? Well, it's because the last thing to get converted in a the last thing to get converted in a the last thing to get converted in a person's life is often their wallet. person's life is often their wallet. person's life is often their wallet. So, that means there's going to be a lag So, that means there's going to be a lag So, that means there's going to be a lag time time time between when they come to Christ and between when they come to Christ and between when they come to Christ and when their giving when their giving when their giving catches up to their maturity. And that catches up to their maturity. And that catches up to their maturity. And that means you're going to need immense means you're going to need immense means you're going to need immense resources and help from other churches resources and help from other churches resources and help from other churches in order to get you going, get you off in order to get you going, get you off in order to get you going, get you off the ground, and get you into a place of the ground, and get you into a place of the ground, and get you into a place of self-sustainability.

self-sustainability. self-sustainability. Uh and and there's a there's a good Uh and and there's a there's a good Uh and and there's a there's a good little white paper that Tim Keller wrote little white paper that Tim Keller wrote little white paper that Tim Keller wrote years ago called Why Plant Churches. And years ago called Why Plant Churches. And years ago called Why Plant Churches. And something he says in that that something he says in that that something he says in that that was helpful for me is he pointed out was helpful for me is he pointed out was helpful for me is he pointed out that done right, a church plant is that done right, a church plant is that done right, a church plant is actually a win for all the actually a win for all the actually a win for all the gospel-preaching churches in the city. gospel-preaching churches in the city. gospel-preaching churches in the city. So, it's so easy again to view this in a So, it's so easy again to view this in a So, it's so easy again to view this in a turfy, territorial way, but Keller turfy, territorial way, but Keller turfy, territorial way, but Keller writes this, quote, "The vigorous, writes this, quote, "The vigorous, writes this, quote, "The vigorous, continual planting of new congregations continual planting of new congregations continual planting of new congregations is the single most crucial strategy for is the single most crucial strategy for is the single most crucial strategy for both the numerical growth of the body of both the numerical growth of the body of both the numerical growth of the body of Christ in a city Christ in a city Christ in a city and the continual corporate renewal and and the continual corporate renewal and and the continual corporate renewal and revival of the existing churches in a revival of the existing churches in a revival of the existing churches in a city. Nothing else, not crusades, city. Nothing else, not crusades, city. Nothing else, not crusades, outreach programs, parachurch outreach programs, parachurch outreach programs, parachurch ministries, growing megachurches, ministries, growing megachurches, ministries, growing megachurches, congregational consulting, or church congregational consulting, or church congregational consulting, or church renewal processes will have the same renewal processes will have the same renewal processes will have the same consistent impact of dynamic, extensive consistent impact of dynamic, extensive consistent impact of dynamic, extensive church planning. This is an church planning. This is an church planning. This is an eyebrow-raising statement, but to those eyebrow-raising statement, but to those eyebrow-raising statement, but to those who have done the study, it is not even who have done the study, it is not even who have done the study, it is not even controversial. In other words, a church controversial. In other words, a church controversial. In other words, a church plant is an expression of unity because plant is an expression of unity because plant is an expression of unity because it serves the other gospel-minded it serves the other gospel-minded it serves the other gospel-minded congregations in the city. It's meant to congregations in the city. It's meant to congregations in the city. It's meant to function as kind of a an evangelistic function as kind of a an evangelistic function as kind of a an evangelistic feeder for the whole community. It's the feeder for the whole community. It's the feeder for the whole community. It's the principle of a rising tide lifts all principle of a rising tide lifts all principle of a rising tide lifts all boats. And I I I um our church just had boats. And I I I um our church just had boats. And I I I um our church just had the opportunity of supporting a church the opportunity of supporting a church the opportunity of supporting a church plant um coming out of another church in plant um coming out of another church in plant um coming out of another church in the city that's planting south of the

the city that's planting south of the the city that's planting south of the river, and I'm so excited about what river, and I'm so excited about what river, and I'm so excited about what they're doing and just seeing a new they're doing and just seeing a new they're doing and just seeing a new gospel outpost here in Richmond that we gospel outpost here in Richmond that we gospel outpost here in Richmond that we can champion and get excited about um can champion and get excited about um can champion and get excited about um really warms my soul. really warms my soul. really warms my soul. >> Did Did you have a >> Did Did you have a >> Did Did you have a seasoned pastor seasoned pastor seasoned pastor um who encouraged you or mentored you or um who encouraged you or mentored you or um who encouraged you or mentored you or coached you when you did this? Tell Tell coached you when you did this? Tell Tell coached you when you did this? Tell Tell me a little bit about that. me a little bit about that. me a little bit about that. >> Not really. Uh I of course was >> Not really. Uh I of course was >> Not really. Uh I of course was We were sent out from Third Avenue. I We were sent out from Third Avenue. I We were sent out from Third Avenue. I was, and and and certainly Greg and Art was, and and and certainly Greg and Art was, and and and certainly Greg and Art associate pastor Dan and others, yes. associate pastor Dan and others, yes. associate pastor Dan and others, yes. >> Um did a wonderful job, um but but they >> Um did a wonderful job, um but but they >> Um did a wonderful job, um but but they had not church planted before. Uh we had not church planted before. Uh we had not church planted before. Uh we were we were kind of the the first or were we were kind of the the first or were we were kind of the the first or among the first uh church plants that among the first uh church plants that among the first uh church plants that were sent out and and backed in a in a were sent out and and backed in a in a were sent out and and backed in a in a really major way. really major way. really major way. And so there was a lot of kind of And so there was a lot of kind of And so there was a lot of kind of figuring it out for myself, but I had figuring it out for myself, but I had figuring it out for myself, but I had the luxury of leaning on the luxury of leaning on the luxury of leaning on really helpful resources, trusted pastor really helpful resources, trusted pastor really helpful resources, trusted pastor friends, because here's the reality, friends, because here's the reality, friends, because here's the reality, someone doesn't have to have planted a someone doesn't have to have planted a someone doesn't have to have planted a church church church to give you advice on how to pastor, to give you advice on how to pastor, to give you advice on how to pastor, because fundamentally a planter is a because fundamentally a planter is a because fundamentally a planter is a pastor. And in fact, I I don't even pastor. And in fact, I I don't even pastor. And in fact, I I don't even typically refer to us as a church plant.

typically refer to us as a church plant. typically refer to us as a church plant. I think that when we constituted as a I think that when we constituted as a I think that when we constituted as a church, we became a church, and I I church, we became a church, and I I church, we became a church, and I I refer to ourselves as a new church. Um refer to ourselves as a new church. Um refer to ourselves as a new church. Um but a a planter is a pastor, and that's but a a planter is a pastor, and that's but a a planter is a pastor, and that's that that and there's a a book by Nathan that that and there's a a book by Nathan that that and there's a a book by Nathan Knight called Planting by Pastoring, Knight called Planting by Pastoring, Knight called Planting by Pastoring, which I would commend to guys. which I would commend to guys. which I would commend to guys. >> Let me give a hearty amen to that >> Let me give a hearty amen to that >> Let me give a hearty amen to that because I I lived through the era where because I I lived through the era where because I I lived through the era where it was like a church planter was this it was like a church planter was this it was like a church planter was this being this apex predator being that was being this apex predator being that was being this apex predator being that was several notches ahead of mere mortal several notches ahead of mere mortal several notches ahead of mere mortal pastor, you know, and and I get it. pastor, you know, and and I get it. pastor, you know, and and I get it. Church planters have to wear a lot of Church planters have to wear a lot of Church planters have to wear a lot of hats. They've got to have a lot of hats. They've got to have a lot of hats. They've got to have a lot of skills. They have to be jacks of all skills. They have to be jacks of all skills. They have to be jacks of all trades. I I've I've been close enough to trades. I I've I've been close enough to trades. I I've I've been close enough to church planting and supported church church planting and supported church church planting and supported church planting enough to know that that has to planting enough to know that that has to planting enough to know that that has to be the case, and there's some be the case, and there's some be the case, and there's some lonelinesses and other things that lonelinesses and other things that lonelinesses and other things that church planters feel perhaps in ways church planters feel perhaps in ways church planters feel perhaps in ways that pastors of settled congregations, that pastors of settled congregations, that pastors of settled congregations, but they are pastors. So, I that's a but they are pastors. So, I that's a but they are pastors. So, I that's a that's an amen. I'm glad. that's an amen. I'm glad. that's an amen. I'm glad. >> Speaking of loneliness, what advice >> Speaking of loneliness, what advice >> Speaking of loneliness, what advice would you give to a prospective church would you give to a prospective church would you give to a prospective church planter planter planter in terms of timing?

in terms of timing? in terms of timing? How like should a planter How like should a planter How like should a planter um go out and seek to establish a church um go out and seek to establish a church um go out and seek to establish a church if he doesn't have other elder qualified if he doesn't have other elder qualified if he doesn't have other elder qualified men around him? Uh is there a number in men around him? Uh is there a number in men around him? Uh is there a number in your mind that's a kind of threshold for your mind that's a kind of threshold for your mind that's a kind of threshold for um the the amount of of members he might um the the amount of of members he might um the the amount of of members he might have in order for the thing to have a have in order for the thing to have a have in order for the thing to have a good shot at good shot at good shot at being self-sustaining? being self-sustaining? being self-sustaining? >> You know, I I have seen all sorts of >> You know, I I have seen all sorts of >> You know, I I have seen all sorts of different sizes of core groups over the different sizes of core groups over the different sizes of core groups over the last 30 years, and and I've been amazed last 30 years, and and I've been amazed last 30 years, and and I've been amazed some larger core groups haven't made it some larger core groups haven't made it some larger core groups haven't made it all the way to becoming a a all the way to becoming a a all the way to becoming a a a local congregation standing on its own a local congregation standing on its own a local congregation standing on its own with its own pastor and elders and with its own pastor and elders and with its own pastor and elders and deacons. And then I've seen some some deacons. And then I've seen some some deacons. And then I've seen some some really small core groups that have that really small core groups that have that really small core groups that have that have grown. And so, it's it's different have grown. And so, it's it's different have grown. And so, it's it's different different situations uh end up favoring different situations uh end up favoring different situations uh end up favoring different sizes. My congregation was different sizes. My congregation was different sizes. My congregation was involved with a couple of other involved with a couple of other involved with a couple of other congregations in the area in planting congregations in the area in planting congregations in the area in planting deliberately attempting to plant a deliberately attempting to plant a deliberately attempting to plant a multi-ethnic congregation in Jackson.

multi-ethnic congregation in Jackson. multi-ethnic congregation in Jackson. That was significant for a whole variety That was significant for a whole variety That was significant for a whole variety of reasons and it was large enough that of reasons and it was large enough that of reasons and it was large enough that we could call a fellow Virginian of we could call a fellow Virginian of we could call a fellow Virginian of yours, Mike Campbell, to be the first yours, Mike Campbell, to be the first yours, Mike Campbell, to be the first pastor and they had a fairly large core pastor and they had a fairly large core pastor and they had a fairly large core group, like maybe close to 100 and we we group, like maybe close to 100 and we we group, like maybe close to 100 and we we loaned a couple of elders and a couple loaned a couple of elders and a couple loaned a couple of elders and a couple of other churches loaned some elders of other churches loaned some elders of other churches loaned some elders until they could elect their own elders until they could elect their own elders until they could elect their own elders and and get to that point. Mike came in and and get to that point. Mike came in and and get to that point. Mike came in and did an amazing job. I'm not sure how and did an amazing job. I'm not sure how and did an amazing job. I'm not sure how long he was there, maybe 10 years and long he was there, maybe 10 years and long he was there, maybe 10 years and that's a church with a really really that's a church with a really really that's a church with a really really large core group to start with but I've large core group to start with but I've large core group to start with but I've seen people go out with very small core seen people go out with very small core seen people go out with very small core groups and and the Lord prospered the groups and and the Lord prospered the groups and and the Lord prospered the work. >> The pastor who goes deeper in theology >> The pastor who goes deeper in theology doesn't just become a better thinker, he doesn't just become a better thinker, he doesn't just become a better thinker, he becomes a better shepherd. Southern becomes a better shepherd. Southern becomes a better shepherd. Southern Seminary's PhD programs are forming Seminary's PhD programs are forming Seminary's PhD programs are forming pastor theologians, men who have pastor theologians, men who have pastor theologians, men who have wrestled seriously with the great wrestled seriously with the great wrestled seriously with the great tradition of Christian thought and who tradition of Christian thought and who tradition of Christian thought and who bring that depth back to the people they bring that depth back to the people they bring that depth back to the people they love and lead. What you gain in your love and lead. What you gain in your love and lead. What you gain in your study, your congregation receives and study, your congregation receives and study, your congregation receives and Southern Seminary's faculty are here to Southern Seminary's faculty are here to Southern Seminary's faculty are here to support you in your work to strengthen support you in your work to strengthen support you in your work to strengthen the church.

the church. the church. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Southern's PhD program is built to fit >> Southern's PhD program is built to fit >> Southern's PhD program is built to fit alongside your ministry offering alongside your ministry offering alongside your ministry offering flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to modular to in-person so you can pursue modular to in-person so you can pursue modular to in-person so you can pursue the kind of rigorous theological the kind of rigorous theological the kind of rigorous theological training that will change how you pastor training that will change how you pastor training that will change how you pastor without stepping away from your church. without stepping away from your church. without stepping away from your church. If you're ready to go deeper, Southern If you're ready to go deeper, Southern If you're ready to go deeper, Southern Seminary's PhD [music] program is where Seminary's PhD [music] program is where Seminary's PhD [music] program is where that begins. Visit sbts.edu/phd >> Do you have a thought about that about >> Do you have a thought about that about how you decide about how you decide about how you decide about >> Same as you. I would be hesitant to make >> Same as you. I would be hesitant to make >> Same as you. I would be hesitant to make any strict rules. any strict rules. any strict rules. Um one thought is that Um one thought is that Um one thought is that I think you're ready to plant a church I think you're ready to plant a church I think you're ready to plant a church when you can be confident that the when you can be confident that the when you can be confident that the people who would be going out have been people who would be going out have been people who would be going out have been with you long enough with you long enough with you long enough to have absorbed the DNA. to have absorbed the DNA. to have absorbed the DNA. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Uh and and the the theological >> Uh and and the the theological >> Uh and and the the theological convictions and instincts of your convictions and instincts of your convictions and instincts of your church. So that you can have confidence church. So that you can have confidence church. So that you can have confidence that you know what's actually going to that you know what's actually going to that you know what's actually going to be reproduced. I think there is a danger be reproduced. I think there is a danger be reproduced. I think there is a danger of reproducing planting prematurely and of reproducing planting prematurely and of reproducing planting prematurely and therefore not knowing frankly what kind therefore not knowing frankly what kind therefore not knowing frankly what kind of church is going to get planted.

of church is going to get planted. of church is going to get planted. >> I'm I'm I'm assuming this not only >> I'm I'm I'm assuming this not only >> I'm I'm I'm assuming this not only becomes a a burden a desire on your becomes a a burden a desire on your becomes a a burden a desire on your heart to serve in this way but some heart to serve in this way but some heart to serve in this way but some other people confirm that hey this is a other people confirm that hey this is a other people confirm that hey this is a good idea for you to think about. Walk good idea for you to think about. Walk good idea for you to think about. Walk us through from there to you getting to us through from there to you getting to us through from there to you getting to Richmond to where you are. Just give us Richmond to where you are. Just give us Richmond to where you are. Just give us a timeline of that whole process. a timeline of that whole process. a timeline of that whole process. >> Yeah, the quick flyover would be that >> Yeah, the quick flyover would be that >> Yeah, the quick flyover would be that in the fall of 2020 when my wife and I in the fall of 2020 when my wife and I in the fall of 2020 when my wife and I had had prayerfully come to the had had prayerfully come to the had had prayerfully come to the realization that that we we think we realization that that we we think we realization that that we we think we want to be in Richmond. We took a little want to be in Richmond. We took a little want to be in Richmond. We took a little vision trip just the two of us uh to vision trip just the two of us uh to vision trip just the two of us uh to Richmond and met with some local pastors Richmond and met with some local pastors Richmond and met with some local pastors in the area, some friends that we knew in the area, some friends that we knew in the area, some friends that we knew in Richmond who were interested um in in Richmond who were interested um in in Richmond who were interested um in being a part of a of a new being a part of a of a new being a part of a of a new gospel outpost. gospel outpost. gospel outpost. And after that trip we went back to my And after that trip we went back to my And after that trip we went back to my elders in to our elders in Louisville elders in to our elders in Louisville elders in to our elders in Louisville and and said we'd like to do this and and and said we'd like to do this and and and said we'd like to do this and they said great. they said great. they said great. >> Were you on staff at Third Avenue at the >> Were you on staff at Third Avenue at the >> Were you on staff at Third Avenue at the >> I was a lay elder. >> I was a lay elder. >> I was a lay elder. >> A lay elder?

>> A lay elder? >> A lay elder? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> And >> And >> And then in January of 2021 we announced then in January of 2021 we announced then in January of 2021 we announced this to the church. We had an this to the church. We had an this to the church. We had an informational presentation for about 45 informational presentation for about 45 informational presentation for about 45 minutes, which we recorded and had as an minutes, which we recorded and had as an minutes, which we recorded and had as an unlisted YouTube link, and that became unlisted YouTube link, and that became unlisted YouTube link, and that became really useful because as people in really useful because as people in really useful because as people in Richmond started to hear about this Richmond started to hear about this Richmond started to hear about this church plant and would and would inquire church plant and would and would inquire church plant and would and would inquire about it and say, "Can we do a Zoom about it and say, "Can we do a Zoom about it and say, "Can we do a Zoom call?" rather than saying, "Sure, when call?" rather than saying, "Sure, when call?" rather than saying, "Sure, when are you available?" I would say, are you available?" I would say, are you available?" I would say, "Here's a link, watch this informational "Here's a link, watch this informational "Here's a link, watch this informational presentation, and if you're still presentation, and if you're still presentation, and if you're still interested in talking, I'd be happy to." interested in talking, I'd be happy to." interested in talking, I'd be happy to." Uh so it was just a a frankly efficient Uh so it was just a a frankly efficient Uh so it was just a a frankly efficient way uh to help just orient people to way uh to help just orient people to way uh to help just orient people to what our church was going to be about. what our church was going to be about. what our church was going to be about. We had a period of about 6 months there We had a period of about 6 months there We had a period of about 6 months there in Louisville where we were praying, in Louisville where we were praying, in Louisville where we were praying, planning, recruiting, planning, recruiting, planning, recruiting, um having those prayer and pizza um having those prayer and pizza um having those prayer and pizza gatherings, and then the summer of 2021, gatherings, and then the summer of 2021, gatherings, and then the summer of 2021, we and those 11 other adults and their we and those 11 other adults and their we and those 11 other adults and their kids moved to Richmond with a view to kids moved to Richmond with a view to kids moved to Richmond with a view to planting River City Baptist.

planting River City Baptist. planting River City Baptist. >> Now, when did you know that they were >> Now, when did you know that they were >> Now, when did you know that they were going to come? I mean, what what where going to come? I mean, what what where going to come? I mean, what what where where were they were identified in the where were they were identified in the where were they were identified in the early part of that year? Is it early part of that year? Is it early part of that year? Is it >> Some Some as early as January, others >> Some Some as early as January, others >> Some Some as early as January, others were were, you know, last of all, were were, you know, last of all, were were, you know, last of all, uh you know, as untimely born. They they uh you know, as untimely born. They they uh you know, as untimely born. They they they kind of were buzzer-beater they kind of were buzzer-beater they kind of were buzzer-beater situations. Um situations. Um situations. Um but we we all kind of came here summer but we we all kind of came here summer but we we all kind of came here summer of 2021, and then in the fall and winter of 2021, and then in the fall and winter of 2021, and then in the fall and winter we had 10 core team meetings. And these we had 10 core team meetings. And these we had 10 core team meetings. And these were on were on were on every other Sunday evening. So we didn't every other Sunday evening. So we didn't every other Sunday evening. So we didn't want to impinge on people's commitment want to impinge on people's commitment want to impinge on people's commitment to their churches in Richmond. Um to their churches in Richmond. Um to their churches in Richmond. Um and we I didn't want to also start with and we I didn't want to also start with and we I didn't want to also start with our ecclesiological distinctives. I our ecclesiological distinctives. I our ecclesiological distinctives. I wanted to start with the glory of God. wanted to start with the glory of God. wanted to start with the glory of God. So what I taught on week one was the So what I taught on week one was the So what I taught on week one was the glory of God. glory of God. glory of God. >> that a Bible study or a service in the >> that a Bible study or a service in the >> that a Bible study or a service in the home? How did you do that? home? How did you do that? home? How did you do that? >> Think a church service meets a Young >> Think a church service meets a Young >> Think a church service meets a Young Life meeting. So I I I didn't want to Life meeting. So I I I didn't want to Life meeting. So I I I didn't want to make it the kind of thing where people make it the kind of thing where people make it the kind of thing where people um um um I didn't want to so simulate a church I didn't want to so simulate a church I didn't want to so simulate a church service that people thought that's what service that people thought that's what service that people thought that's what was happening. Uh was happening. Uh was happening. Uh as if that checks the box. We're not a as if that checks the box. We're not a as if that checks the box. We're not a church yet. But, I also for like for church yet. But, I also for like for church yet. But, I also for like for example, I thought about not doing any example, I thought about not doing any example, I thought about not doing any musical worship musical worship musical worship um so that we wouldn't lead people to um so that we wouldn't lead people to um so that we wouldn't lead people to think, "Hey, you've uh you've think, "Hey, you've uh you've think, "Hey, you've uh you've experienced church." But, we ended up experienced church." But, we ended up experienced church." But, we ended up singing a few songs each time because I singing a few songs each time because I singing a few songs each time because I realized actually one of the main things realized actually one of the main things realized actually one of the main things that I'm wanting to promote is that I'm wanting to promote is that I'm wanting to promote is congregational singing. And so, I want congregational singing. And so, I want congregational singing. And so, I want to give folks a taste of of what that's

to give folks a taste of of what that's to give folks a taste of of what that's going to be like. Um but, yeah, I I going to be like. Um but, yeah, I I going to be like. Um but, yeah, I I started week one teaching on the glory started week one teaching on the glory started week one teaching on the glory of God. Week two Is that Sunday evening of God. Week two Is that Sunday evening of God. Week two Is that Sunday evening that you did that? evening. Week two was that you did that? evening. Week two was that you did that? evening. Week two was the gospel of God. the gospel of God. the gospel of God. Week three was the people of God, which Week three was the people of God, which Week three was the people of God, which was a biblical theology survey of of was a biblical theology survey of of was a biblical theology survey of of God's people. And then, starting week God's people. And then, starting week God's people. And then, starting week four, we drilled down on distinctives um four, we drilled down on distinctives um four, we drilled down on distinctives um in in terms of in in terms of in in terms of um um um expositional preaching, congregational expositional preaching, congregational expositional preaching, congregational singing, regulative principle, uh singing, regulative principle, uh singing, regulative principle, uh polity, elders, deacons, et cetera. And polity, elders, deacons, et cetera. And polity, elders, deacons, et cetera. And it kind of became our membership class it kind of became our membership class it kind of became our membership class for the that original core group. for the that original core group. for the that original core group. >> All all four of those things became the >> All all four of those things became the >> All all four of those things became the membership class or the the fourth week? membership class or the the fourth week? membership class or the the fourth week? >> session. The final session. Statement of >> session. The final session. Statement of >> session. The final session. Statement of faith, church covenant, priorities. And faith, church covenant, priorities. And faith, church covenant, priorities. And then, I I did membership interviews of then, I I did membership interviews of then, I I did membership interviews of everyone. And then, in February of 2022, everyone. And then, in February of 2022, everyone. And then, in February of 2022, uh uh uh >> Including the 11 who had come with you? >> Including the 11 who had come with you? >> Including the 11 who had come with you? >> Yeah. So, we we we we covenanted >> Yeah. So, we we we we covenanted >> Yeah. So, we we we we covenanted together as a church in February with together as a church in February with together as a church in February with with 69 with 69 with 69 um members. And um I had two other um members. And um I had two other um members. And um I had two other founding elders. And we voted on members founding elders. And we voted on members founding elders. And we voted on members before elders because you can have a before elders because you can have a before elders because you can have a church without elders, but you can't church without elders, but you can't church without elders, but you can't have a church without members. And um have a church without members. And um have a church without members. And um and and so, what the the first action of and and so, what the the first action of and and so, what the the first action of the church um was taking the Lord's the church um was taking the Lord's the church um was taking the Lord's Supper and affirming our our slate of Supper and affirming our our slate of Supper and affirming our our slate of elders.

elders. elders. >> And did you visit around some of the >> And did you visit around some of the >> And did you visit around some of the other churches in the area during that other churches in the area during that other churches in the area during that period of time? period of time? period of time? >> Absolutely. And I encouraged the others >> Absolutely. And I encouraged the others >> Absolutely. And I encouraged the others who had come from Louisville to do that who had come from Louisville to do that who had come from Louisville to do that and for us not all to go to the same and for us not all to go to the same and for us not all to go to the same church. church. church. >> What did you learn? >> What did you learn? >> What did you learn? >> I learned that there's a lot of >> I learned that there's a lot of >> I learned that there's a lot of wonderful gospel ministry going on in wonderful gospel ministry going on in wonderful gospel ministry going on in the city. the city. the city. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that and that we we are not saviors >> And that and that we we are not saviors >> And that and that we we are not saviors swooping into Richmond. swooping into Richmond. swooping into Richmond. Um we're just we're just reinforcements Um we're just we're just reinforcements Um we're just we're just reinforcements coming in and wanting to um coming in and wanting to um coming in and wanting to um just just take a few more yards on on just just take a few more yards on on just just take a few more yards on on the beach as it were. Um the beach as it were. Um the beach as it were. Um as as we advance against the powers of as as we advance against the powers of as as we advance against the powers of hell in the city. hell in the city. hell in the city. >> Um >> Um >> Um How did you approach funding? I mean, How did you approach funding? I mean, How did you approach funding? I mean, did you do you were you supported fully did you do you were you supported fully did you do you were you supported fully out of Third Avenue? Tell us a little out of Third Avenue? Tell us a little out of Third Avenue? Tell us a little bit about the funding side of things. bit about the funding side of things. bit about the funding side of things. >> Have you ever heard of laying out a >> Have you ever heard of laying out a >> Have you ever heard of laying out a fleece? fleece? fleece? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Uh >> Uh >> Uh funding is is funding is is funding is is >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> yeah, it's just >> yeah, it's just >> yeah, it's just it's an occupational hazard. Uh it's it's an occupational hazard. Uh it's it's an occupational hazard. Uh it's just some it's the it's it literally is just some it's the it's it literally is just some it's the it's it literally is the kind of the cost of doing business.

the kind of the cost of doing business. the kind of the cost of doing business. And so And so And so it's it's not fun, but it's necessary. it's it's not fun, but it's necessary. it's it's not fun, but it's necessary. And so I just I just got after it. I I And so I just I just got after it. I I And so I just I just got after it. I I basically reached out to every pastor basically reached out to every pastor basically reached out to every pastor friend I knew of in the United States of friend I knew of in the United States of friend I knew of in the United States of America America America and sent our prospectus and vision and sent our prospectus and vision and sent our prospectus and vision uh for reaching Richmond for Christ. And uh for reaching Richmond for Christ. And uh for reaching Richmond for Christ. And by God's grace, a lot of churches were by God's grace, a lot of churches were by God's grace, a lot of churches were very generous with us. very generous with us. very generous with us. Um and we also saw a pretty quick growth Um and we also saw a pretty quick growth Um and we also saw a pretty quick growth as a church um so that as a church um so that as a church um so that for example, our sending church in for example, our sending church in for example, our sending church in Louisville had agreed to support us for Louisville had agreed to support us for Louisville had agreed to support us for 3 years, but after year two, we were 3 years, but after year two, we were 3 years, but after year two, we were able to say able to say able to say >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> And I realize that's not the reality for >> And I realize that's not the reality for >> And I realize that's not the reality for most church planners. most church planners. most church planners. Um Um Um and and in that sense, yeah, I'm just so and and in that sense, yeah, I'm just so and and in that sense, yeah, I'm just so so grateful to the Lord, but so grateful to the Lord, but so grateful to the Lord, but yeah, I I would encourage guys not to be yeah, I I would encourage guys not to be yeah, I I would encourage guys not to be bashful about asking for money. bashful about asking for money. bashful about asking for money. Um I actually think support raising Um I actually think support raising Um I actually think support raising builds builds builds muscles of faith, which are really good muscles of faith, which are really good muscles of faith, which are really good for growth as a Christian. In fact, the for growth as a Christian. In fact, the for growth as a Christian. In fact, the same muscles that are required for same muscles that are required for same muscles that are required for raising money are the same muscles for raising money are the same muscles for raising money are the same muscles for sharing the gospel. You're going up to sharing the gospel. You're going up to sharing the gospel. You're going up to someone someone someone and you're presenting something and and you're presenting something and and you're presenting something and there's the risk of rejection. There's there's the risk of rejection. There's there's the risk of rejection. There's the risk of being told absolutely not, the risk of being told absolutely not, the risk of being told absolutely not, please get out of here.

please get out of here. please get out of here. And so I think it's it's a good thing And so I think it's it's a good thing And so I think it's it's a good thing and it's a humbling thing um to to ask and it's a humbling thing um to to ask and it's a humbling thing um to to ask people to consider in faith giving to people to consider in faith giving to people to consider in faith giving to the work of your ministry. What do you the work of your ministry. What do you the work of your ministry. What do you wish that you had understood wish that you had understood wish that you had understood earlier earlier earlier about the importance of clear pathways about the importance of clear pathways about the importance of clear pathways for newcomers for newcomers for newcomers to belong and to serve and be discipled to belong and to serve and be discipled to belong and to serve and be discipled in the church? Yeah, two two levels to in the church? Yeah, two two levels to in the church? Yeah, two two levels to this. So So one for me, I think this. So So one for me, I think this. So So one for me, I think I looking back wish that I hadn't I looking back wish that I hadn't I looking back wish that I hadn't assumed that we had to be hitting on all assumed that we had to be hitting on all assumed that we had to be hitting on all cylinders on day one. So I wanted I cylinders on day one. So I wanted I cylinders on day one. So I wanted I wanted to kind of have all the offerings wanted to kind of have all the offerings wanted to kind of have all the offerings all the programs all the things all the programs all the things all the programs all the things day one, whereas I had a an elder day one, whereas I had a an elder day one, whereas I had a an elder challenge me and say, "Hey, challenge me and say, "Hey, challenge me and say, "Hey, let's just get Sunday mornings right." let's just get Sunday mornings right." let's just get Sunday mornings right." That that was very liberating. And it That that was very liberating. And it That that was very liberating. And it was very wise. Yeah, and I needed to was very wise. Yeah, and I needed to was very wise. Yeah, and I needed to hear that. And and we can add other hear that. And and we can add other hear that. And and we can add other stuff stuff stuff as we're able, home groups, Sunday as we're able, home groups, Sunday as we're able, home groups, Sunday school, etc., but we started just with school, etc., but we started just with school, etc., but we started just with Sunday morning and a Sunday evening Sunday morning and a Sunday evening Sunday morning and a Sunday evening prayer service every other week and we prayer service every other week and we prayer service every other week and we went from there and I think that's okay.

went from there and I think that's okay. went from there and I think that's okay. Um in terms of the kind of pathways to Um in terms of the kind of pathways to Um in terms of the kind of pathways to membership, membership, membership, I I just kind of resolved at the I I just kind of resolved at the I I just kind of resolved at the beginning that that we were going to beginning that that we were going to beginning that that we were going to engage in truth and advertising. So engage in truth and advertising. So engage in truth and advertising. So that's actually one of the reasons I put that's actually one of the reasons I put that's actually one of the reasons I put Baptist in the church name. Uh Baptist in the church name. Uh Baptist in the church name. Uh that's very rare to do. In fact, my that's very rare to do. In fact, my that's very rare to do. In fact, my church planning assessors and coaches church planning assessors and coaches church planning assessors and coaches with the with the with the uh state convention uh uh state convention uh uh state convention uh were basically like are are you sure you were basically like are are you sure you were basically like are are you sure you want to do that? Uh just because no one want to do that? Uh just because no one want to do that? Uh just because no one does that these days. does that these days. does that these days. But, counterintuitively, Lig, I've found But, counterintuitively, Lig, I've found But, counterintuitively, Lig, I've found that that that that has actually served and promoted that has actually served and promoted that has actually served and promoted gospel catholicity. And here's why. gospel catholicity. And here's why. gospel catholicity. And here's why. We're being up front about who we are We're being up front about who we are We're being up front about who we are and who we're not. and who we're not. and who we're not. And it's a way of saying, And it's a way of saying, And it's a way of saying, "We're not trying to be the right church "We're not trying to be the right church "We're not trying to be the right church for everyone." I planted at the age of for everyone." I planted at the age of for everyone." I planted at the age of 39, which is which is old for a church 39, which is which is old for a church 39, which is which is old for a church planter. planter. planter. I think if I had planted at 29, there's I think if I had planted at 29, there's I think if I had planted at 29, there's no way I would have had Baptist in the no way I would have had Baptist in the no way I would have had Baptist in the church name.

church name. church name. Because I think and there there are Because I think and there there are Because I think and there there are 29-year-olds out there who are a lot 29-year-olds out there who are a lot 29-year-olds out there who are a lot more mature than I was. So, I'm just more mature than I was. So, I'm just more mature than I was. So, I'm just telling all myself. But, I think that I telling all myself. But, I think that I telling all myself. But, I think that I would have tried to be all things to all would have tried to be all things to all would have tried to be all things to all people people people in a way that 10 years later I didn't in a way that 10 years later I didn't in a way that 10 years later I didn't feel the need to be. Um and so at our feel the need to be. Um and so at our feel the need to be. Um and so at our membership class, membership class, membership class, I have a a list of things that I always I have a a list of things that I always I have a a list of things that I always tick off that tick off that tick off that uh uh uh might tick people off. Uh but basically, might tick people off. Uh but basically, might tick people off. Uh but basically, here I don't want to waste your time. I here I don't want to waste your time. I here I don't want to waste your time. I don't want to waste my time. So, here don't want to waste my time. So, here don't want to waste my time. So, here are a few distinctives about our church are a few distinctives about our church are a few distinctives about our church that might surprise you that that um that might surprise you that that um that might surprise you that that um that you may need to think more about or that you may need to think more about or that you may need to think more about or might just be off-putting to you. And might just be off-putting to you. And might just be off-putting to you. And I'm just I we just try to be up front I'm just I we just try to be up front I'm just I we just try to be up front about that that that kind of stuff. And about that that that kind of stuff. And about that that that kind of stuff. And I've found that has borne so much fruit. I've found that has borne so much fruit. I've found that has borne so much fruit. >> you for that, and let me gently commend >> you for that, and let me gently commend >> you for that, and let me gently commend that to my Presbyterian brethren. You that to my Presbyterian brethren. You that to my Presbyterian brethren. You know, don't try and hide that you're a know, don't try and hide that you're a know, don't try and hide that you're a Presbyterian and bring in the Presbyterian and bring in the Presbyterian and bring in the unsuspecting multitudes and then sneak unsuspecting multitudes and then sneak unsuspecting multitudes and then sneak your Calvinism out of your back pocket. your Calvinism out of your back pocket. your Calvinism out of your back pocket. Just put it on the table up front and Just put it on the table up front and Just put it on the table up front and let them know what you are. I I think let them know what you are. I I think let them know what you are. I I think that's much healthier that's much healthier that's much healthier way of I actually think that helps you way of I actually think that helps you way of I actually think that helps you in theological identity and it keeps you in theological identity and it keeps you in theological identity and it keeps you from having to overcorrect from having to overcorrect from having to overcorrect so that you don't have a proper so that you don't have a proper so that you don't have a proper catholicity, right? If you if you catholicity, right? If you if you catholicity, right? If you if you haven't put your cards on the table haven't put your cards on the table haven't put your cards on the table where you are theologically, you end up where you are theologically, you end up where you are theologically, you end up having to compensate for that at certain having to compensate for that at certain having to compensate for that at certain points down the line. Whereas if you points down the line. Whereas if you points down the line. Whereas if you just hey, here's where we are and by the just hey, here's where we are and by the just hey, here's where we are and by the way, we're very thankful for all the

way, we're very thankful for all the way, we're very thankful for all the other evangelical churches in this area. other evangelical churches in this area. other evangelical churches in this area. We're going to pray for them, pray the We're going to pray for them, pray the We're going to pray for them, pray the Lord prospers their ministry. We're not Lord prospers their ministry. We're not Lord prospers their ministry. We're not them, they're not us, we're different. them, they're not us, we're different. them, they're not us, we're different. We've got these convictions, but we We've got these convictions, but we We've got these convictions, but we really appreciate the fact that the really appreciate the fact that the really appreciate the fact that the gospel is going out there. It's I think gospel is going out there. It's I think gospel is going out there. It's I think it's just a much healthier way of it's just a much healthier way of it's just a much healthier way of starting out and the way of continuing starting out and the way of continuing starting out and the way of continuing in ministry. in ministry. in ministry. >> So, yeah. As has been said, have clear >> So, yeah. As has been said, have clear >> So, yeah. As has been said, have clear fences and shake hands over them often. fences and shake hands over them often. fences and shake hands over them often. >> What about cultivating leadership? You >> What about cultivating leadership? You >> What about cultivating leadership? You know, you you're you're starting with a know, you you're you're starting with a know, you you're you're starting with a core group, you have 11 folks that come core group, you have 11 folks that come core group, you have 11 folks that come with you, you've got the folks that join with you, you've got the folks that join with you, you've got the folks that join you. When By the way, when did you have you. When By the way, when did you have you. When By the way, when did you have your first worship service? That your first worship service? That your first worship service? That happened happened happened >> February 22nd. >> February 22nd. >> February 22nd. >> Okay, so you've been here for a year and >> Okay, so you've been here for a year and >> Okay, so you've been here for a year and some change, is that right? some change, is that right? some change, is that right? >> Less than that. Yeah, 9 months, yeah. >> Less than that. Yeah, 9 months, yeah. >> Less than that. Yeah, 9 months, yeah. >> So, February you start. What about Yeah, >> So, February you start. What about Yeah, >> So, February you start. What about Yeah, and then the very first service you have and then the very first service you have and then the very first service you have the Lord's Supper and then you elect two the Lord's Supper and then you elect two the Lord's Supper and then you elect two elders. Okay, how how about leadership elders. Okay, how how about leadership elders. Okay, how how about leadership cultivation after that? Tell me what you cultivation after that? Tell me what you cultivation after that? Tell me what you do.

do. do. >> As I mentioned earlier, I don't think >> As I mentioned earlier, I don't think >> As I mentioned earlier, I don't think you have to have elders in order to have you have to have elders in order to have you have to have elders in order to have a church. Though a healthy church is a church. Though a healthy church is a church. Though a healthy church is going to have elders. I didn't know going to have elders. I didn't know going to have elders. I didn't know during the core team phase if during the core team phase if during the core team phase if I would have the benefit of having other I would have the benefit of having other I would have the benefit of having other founding elders and I kind of went back founding elders and I kind of went back founding elders and I kind of went back and forth on the the the wisdom of that, and forth on the the the wisdom of that, and forth on the the the wisdom of that, um especially because we were being um especially because we were being um especially because we were being planted. It'd be one thing if we were planted. It'd be one thing if we were planted. It'd be one thing if we were planted on the east end of Louisville 20 planted on the east end of Louisville 20 planted on the east end of Louisville 20 miles away from our sending church. We miles away from our sending church. We miles away from our sending church. We were being planted 600 miles away. were being planted 600 miles away. were being planted 600 miles away. Um Um Um it went well having other founding it went well having other founding it went well having other founding elders in part because they were two elders in part because they were two elders in part because they were two really godly brothers. One from really godly brothers. One from really godly brothers. One from Louisville, one from Richmond, which Louisville, one from Richmond, which Louisville, one from Richmond, which kind of tells the story of our church. kind of tells the story of our church. kind of tells the story of our church. Um Um Um but I would say that it's so practically but I would say that it's so practically but I would say that it's so practically useful to be able to say from the very useful to be able to say from the very useful to be able to say from the very beginning, beginning, beginning, "We decided, not I decided." So, if at "We decided, not I decided." So, if at "We decided, not I decided." So, if at all possible, all possible, all possible, perspective planter, perspective planter, perspective planter, try to try to try to identify other elder-qualified brothers identify other elder-qualified brothers identify other elder-qualified brothers who can who can who can kind of be that band of brothers that kind of be that band of brothers that kind of be that band of brothers that you're going to need in those lonely you're going to need in those lonely you're going to need in those lonely days of uncertainty, uh which are might days of uncertainty, uh which are might days of uncertainty, uh which are might last a long time before you realize is last a long time before you realize is last a long time before you realize is this thing really going to get traction.

this thing really going to get traction. this thing really going to get traction. >> That's good. Again, >> That's good. Again, >> That's good. Again, uh I would speaking into my world, just uh I would speaking into my world, just uh I would speaking into my world, just commend commend commend to young Presbyterian church planters to young Presbyterian church planters to young Presbyterian church planters the the in the glory of the plurality of the the in the glory of the plurality of the the in the glory of the plurality of elders. Um elders. Um elders. Um you actually want folks that don't say you actually want folks that don't say you actually want folks that don't say yes to you all the time. You want folks yes to you all the time. You want folks yes to you all the time. You want folks [clears throat] that will give you the [clears throat] that will give you the [clears throat] that will give you the freedom to just concentrate on the the freedom to just concentrate on the the freedom to just concentrate on the the service, get the service right, Matt. service, get the service right, Matt. service, get the service right, Matt. You know, in the You know, in the You know, in the Matt might have in his mind, "We've got Matt might have in his mind, "We've got Matt might have in his mind, "We've got to do XYZ." But wise elder says, "No, to do XYZ." But wise elder says, "No, to do XYZ." But wise elder says, "No, let's just do this." And you think, "You let's just do this." And you think, "You let's just do this." And you think, "You know what? You're right." And I think I know what? You're right." And I think I know what? You're right." And I think I I see in even in in my tradition, which I see in even in in my tradition, which I see in even in in my tradition, which highly values a plurality of elders and highly values a plurality of elders and highly values a plurality of elders and requires that there be elders uh present requires that there be elders uh present requires that there be elders uh present before a church is particularized, there before a church is particularized, there before a church is particularized, there can be a tendency amongst church can be a tendency amongst church can be a tendency amongst church planters to delay that as long as planters to delay that as long as planters to delay that as long as possible. And I think your pattern is possible. And I think your pattern is possible. And I think your pattern is very, very commendable in wanting to see very, very commendable in wanting to see very, very commendable in wanting to see that uh at the very outset. that uh at the very outset. that uh at the very outset. >> And and just a reminder, you're looking >> And and just a reminder, you're looking >> And and just a reminder, you're looking for shepherds.

for shepherds. for shepherds. I think it can be easy I think it can be easy I think it can be easy in planting a church, because it's by in planting a church, because it's by in planting a church, because it's by nature an entrepreneurial thing, it can nature an entrepreneurial thing, it can nature an entrepreneurial thing, it can be easy to think that you, the planter, be easy to think that you, the planter, be easy to think that you, the planter, have to be the ultimate alpha male have to be the ultimate alpha male have to be the ultimate alpha male entrepreneur. And it's certainly helpful entrepreneur. And it's certainly helpful entrepreneur. And it's certainly helpful to have some of those tendencies, some to have some of those tendencies, some to have some of those tendencies, some of those gifts. But fundamentally, you of those gifts. But fundamentally, you of those gifts. But fundamentally, you and the other brothers around you need and the other brothers around you need and the other brothers around you need to be shepherds. Because again, that's to be shepherds. Because again, that's to be shepherds. Because again, that's what you are. You're a pastor, and this what you are. You're a pastor, and this what you are. You're a pastor, and this is a church. is a church. is a church. And at the end of the day, And at the end of the day, And at the end of the day, it's just ordinary Yes, there are some it's just ordinary Yes, there are some it's just ordinary Yes, there are some unique challenges that come with it. But unique challenges that come with it. But unique challenges that come with it. But sometimes I think those uniquenesses can sometimes I think those uniquenesses can sometimes I think those uniquenesses can be overstated. At the end of the day, be overstated. At the end of the day, be overstated. At the end of the day, we're just pastoring a flock that Jesus we're just pastoring a flock that Jesus we're just pastoring a flock that Jesus has entrusted to us and for whom, one has entrusted to us and for whom, one has entrusted to us and for whom, one day, we will give an account. day, we will give an account. day, we will give an account. >> Now, you mentioned, you know, >> Now, you mentioned, you know, >> Now, you mentioned, you know, I didn't have an a mentor pastor, but I I didn't have an a mentor pastor, but I I didn't have an a mentor pastor, but I did benefit from really good resources. did benefit from really good resources. did benefit from really good resources. So, tip us off on some of the resources So, tip us off on some of the resources So, tip us off on some of the resources that you found most helpful. that you found most helpful. that you found most helpful. >> Well, I mentioned Nathan Knight's book, >> Well, I mentioned Nathan Knight's book, >> Well, I mentioned Nathan Knight's book, Planting by Pastoring, which didn't Planting by Pastoring, which didn't Planting by Pastoring, which didn't exist when I was planting, but that that exist when I was planting, but that that exist when I was planting, but that that is worth reading.

is worth reading. is worth reading. Clint Clifton, who actually tragically Clint Clifton, who actually tragically Clint Clifton, who actually tragically died a few years ago in a helicopter or died a few years ago in a helicopter or died a few years ago in a helicopter or plane crash. plane crash. plane crash. He had a He was a church planting coach, He had a He was a church planting coach, He had a He was a church planting coach, and and and he actually interviewed me on his he actually interviewed me on his he actually interviewed me on his podcast. I think the title is the zero podcast. I think the title is the zero podcast. I think the title is the zero year of church planting, where I kind year of church planting, where I kind year of church planting, where I kind of, after year one, shared the story of of, after year one, shared the story of of, after year one, shared the story of just in greater detail with what I've just in greater detail with what I've just in greater detail with what I've shared with you today. He has a book shared with you today. He has a book shared with you today. He has a book called Church Planting Thresholds, which called Church Planting Thresholds, which called Church Planting Thresholds, which is really good. is really good. is really good. Clint Clifton Church Planting Clint Clifton Church Planting Clint Clifton Church Planting Thresholds, and that that podcast Thresholds, and that that podcast Thresholds, and that that podcast episode is called, I think, The Zero episode is called, I think, The Zero episode is called, I think, The Zero Year of Church Planting Year of Church Planting Year of Church Planting on the New Churches Podcast. on the New Churches Podcast. on the New Churches Podcast. Nine Marks has a good journal on church Nine Marks has a good journal on church Nine Marks has a good journal on church planting. It's a little dated. I think planting. It's a little dated. I think planting. It's a little dated. I think it came out over 10 years ago, but some it came out over 10 years ago, but some it came out over 10 years ago, but some good articles in that. good articles in that. good articles in that. Tim Keller has some good stuff on on Tim Keller has some good stuff on on Tim Keller has some good stuff on on church planting. But to be honest, I church planting. But to be honest, I church planting. But to be honest, I kind of had to cobble it together. And kind of had to cobble it together. And kind of had to cobble it together. And and there is not one resource that I and there is not one resource that I and there is not one resource that I point everyone to. It's kind of is based point everyone to. It's kind of is based point everyone to. It's kind of is based more on what question I'm being asked.

more on what question I'm being asked. more on what question I'm being asked. >> Have you ever posted anywhere all the >> Have you ever posted anywhere all the >> Have you ever posted anywhere all the stuff that you cobbled together? stuff that you cobbled together? stuff that you cobbled together? >> I don't think I have. >> I don't think I have. >> I don't think I have. >> Well, you should do that. Yeah. And then >> Well, you should do that. Yeah. And then >> Well, you should do that. Yeah. And then tell us where it is sometime. tell us where it is sometime. tell us where it is sometime. >> Maybe it would be worth doing. I was >> Maybe it would be worth doing. I was >> Maybe it would be worth doing. I was asked to write a forward for a book on asked to write a forward for a book on asked to write a forward for a book on church planting when I had church planting when I had church planting when I had been doing it for like a year and I said been doing it for like a year and I said been doing it for like a year and I said no cuz I just felt like uh no cuz I just felt like uh no cuz I just felt like uh you know, that's like being asked to you know, that's like being asked to you know, that's like being asked to write a book on parenting when you have write a book on parenting when you have write a book on parenting when you have a single toddler. So, you know, let's a single toddler. So, you know, let's a single toddler. So, you know, let's give it some time and I'll I'll continue give it some time and I'll I'll continue give it some time and I'll I'll continue learning from others. learning from others. learning from others. >> That's good. Any any last pieces of >> That's good. Any any last pieces of >> That's good. Any any last pieces of advice to someone who is considering advice to someone who is considering advice to someone who is considering doing the work of church planting? doing the work of church planting? doing the work of church planting? >> Yeah, I would say >> Yeah, I would say >> Yeah, I would say it's going to be hard. It's going to at it's going to be hard. It's going to at it's going to be hard. It's going to at times be discouraging. times be discouraging. times be discouraging. Don't forget to have fun. Don't forget to have fun. Don't forget to have fun. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> It is an immense privilege and joy to >> It is an immense privilege and joy to >> It is an immense privilege and joy to get to see a new outpost of the kingdom get to see a new outpost of the kingdom get to see a new outpost of the kingdom of heaven of heaven of heaven established. And there is a there is an established. And there is a there is an established. And there is a there is an energy and a momentum and and a shared energy and a momentum and and a shared energy and a momentum and and a shared sense of purpose that you have in those sense of purpose that you have in those sense of purpose that you have in those early days and months that you're going early days and months that you're going early days and months that you're going to one day miss. And so don't don't take to one day miss. And so don't don't take to one day miss. And so don't don't take it for granted. Um lean into that. Lean it for granted. Um lean into that. Lean it for granted. Um lean into that. Lean into the excitement and use the into the excitement and use the into the excitement and use the opportunity to teach and disciple your opportunity to teach and disciple your opportunity to teach and disciple your people uh to play the long game because people uh to play the long game because people uh to play the long game because uh getting to spread the gospel, you uh getting to spread the gospel, you uh getting to spread the gospel, you know, getting the gospel We we talk know, getting the gospel We we talk know, getting the gospel We we talk about getting the gospel right and about getting the gospel right and about getting the gospel right and getting the gospel out. And and we want getting the gospel out. And and we want getting the gospel out. And and we want to be a church that does both.

to be a church that does both. to be a church that does both. Again, for the good of the whole city Again, for the good of the whole city Again, for the good of the whole city and of all the churches in Richmond that and of all the churches in Richmond that and of all the churches in Richmond that are lifting high the name of Christ. are lifting high the name of Christ. are lifting high the name of Christ. >> That's great. >> That's great. >> That's great. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Thanks for tuning in to this episode of Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the everyday pastor. We hope it's been the everyday pastor. We hope it's been the everyday pastor. We hope it's been encouraging to you as you're thinking encouraging to you as you're thinking encouraging to you as you're thinking about planting churches. And we pray about planting churches. And we pray about planting churches. And we pray that uh you [music] would not only find that uh you [music] would not only find that uh you [music] would not only find it helpful yourself, but maybe send it it helpful yourself, but maybe send it it helpful yourself, but maybe send it to a friend who's thinking about church to a friend who's thinking about church to a friend who's thinking about church planting so that we can continue helping planting so that we can continue helping planting so that we can continue helping pastors and future pastors find fresh pastors and future pastors find fresh pastors and future pastors find fresh joy in the work of [music] ministry.