Giving & Budgeting (with Jamie Dunlop) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 42]

Hey friends, Matt here. Just wanted to Hey friends, Matt here. Just wanted to let you know that Lig and I really let you know that Lig and I really let you know that Lig and I really appreciate you listening to the show and appreciate you listening to the show and appreciate you listening to the show and for all the encouraging feedback we've for all the encouraging feedback we've for all the encouraging feedback we've received along the way. Uh we'll be received along the way. Uh we'll be received along the way. Uh we'll be taking a brief break for the month of taking a brief break for the month of taking a brief break for the month of December. We hope you enjoy this last December. We hope you enjoy this last December. We hope you enjoy this last conversation with Jamie Dunlop. And Lord conversation with Jamie Dunlop. And Lord conversation with Jamie Dunlop. And Lord willing, we'll be returning in January willing, we'll be returning in January willing, we'll be returning in January with new episodes every two weeks. If with new episodes every two weeks. If with new episodes every two weeks. If you could take a moment to leave a you could take a moment to leave a you could take a moment to leave a rating or review and maybe recommend the rating or review and maybe recommend the rating or review and maybe recommend the show to someone else. We want to show to someone else. We want to show to someone else. We want to continue helping pastors find fresh joy continue helping pastors find fresh joy continue helping pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry. in the work of ministry. in the work of ministry. >> And that's why God loves a cheerful >> And that's why God loves a cheerful >> And that's why God loves a cheerful giver, right? Because God doesn't need giver, right? Because God doesn't need giver, right? Because God doesn't need your money. Uh his plans are not on hold your money. Uh his plans are not on hold your money. Uh his plans are not on hold until you cough up some cash. [music] Uh until you cough up some cash. [music] Uh until you cough up some cash. [music] Uh God loves a cheerful giver because your God loves a cheerful giver because your God loves a cheerful giver because your giving shows the worth of who he really giving shows the worth of who he really giving shows the worth of who he really is. And that's delightful to him. is. And that's delightful to him. is. And that's delightful to him. >> [music] >> Welcome everyone to the Everyday Pastor, >> Welcome everyone to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of a podcast on the nuts and bolts of a podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My name is Matt Smithst and I'm Luke Duncan name is Matt Smithst and I'm Luke Duncan name is Matt Smithst and I'm Luke Duncan and we are joined today by our friend and we are joined today by our friend and we are joined today by our friend Jamie Dunlop. Jaime serves as an Jamie Dunlop. Jaime serves as an Jamie Dunlop. Jaime serves as an associate pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist associate pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist associate pastor at Capitol Hill Baptist Church in Washington DC where he Church in Washington DC where he Church in Washington DC where he oversees administration and adult oversees administration and adult oversees administration and adult education as well as several nonprofits education as well as several nonprofits education as well as several nonprofits based in the church. Jaime's also an based in the church. Jaime's also an based in the church. Jaime's also an author, and I've never said this before author, and I've never said this before author, and I've never said this before on this podcast about any other author, on this podcast about any other author, on this podcast about any other author, so it's not just a throwaway uh thing. I so it's not just a throwaway uh thing. I so it's not just a throwaway uh thing. I think that Jaime Dunlop is one of the think that Jaime Dunlop is one of the think that Jaime Dunlop is one of the most underrated authors in

most underrated authors in most underrated authors in evangelicalism. evangelicalism. evangelicalism. If you're a pastor listening, you may If you're a pastor listening, you may If you're a pastor listening, you may not be familiar with his name or with not be familiar with his name or with not be familiar with his name or with his books, but I would urge you uh to his books, but I would urge you uh to his books, but I would urge you uh to look up anything he's written. Every look up anything he's written. Every look up anything he's written. Every single one of them have ministered to me single one of them have ministered to me single one of them have ministered to me and to my church members profoundly. and to my church members profoundly. and to my church members profoundly. >> Okay, now you've got me you've got me >> Okay, now you've got me you've got me >> Okay, now you've got me you've got me curious now, Matt. What are you curious now, Matt. What are you curious now, Matt. What are you referring to? I mean, you want to give referring to? I mean, you want to give referring to? I mean, you want to give us a couple of titles or us a couple of titles or us a couple of titles or >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's Jamie, >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's Jamie, >> Well, yeah. I mean, I think it's Jamie, you can tell me if I'm missing any, but you can tell me if I'm missing any, but you can tell me if I'm missing any, but uh The Compelling Community, which is uh The Compelling Community, which is uh The Compelling Community, which is top five most important Christian books top five most important Christian books top five most important Christian books I've ever read. Um, and a follow-up book I've ever read. Um, and a follow-up book I've ever read. Um, and a follow-up book to that, uh, Love the Ones Who Drive You to that, uh, Love the Ones Who Drive You to that, uh, Love the Ones Who Drive You Crazy. [snorts] I think every pastor Crazy. [snorts] I think every pastor Crazy. [snorts] I think every pastor can, uh, can relate to that, or at least can, uh, can relate to that, or at least can, uh, can relate to that, or at least has church members that can well well has church members that can well well has church members that can well well relate to that. Um, and then more along relate to that. Um, and then more along relate to that. Um, and then more along the lines of what we're going to talk the lines of what we're going to talk the lines of what we're going to talk with him today in terms of giving and with him today in terms of giving and with him today in terms of giving and church budgeting, he has a little church budgeting, he has a little church budgeting, he has a little booklet called, Why Should I Give to My booklet called, Why Should I Give to My booklet called, Why Should I Give to My Church? It can be read in one sitting. Church? It can be read in one sitting. Church? It can be read in one sitting. It's non-intimidating. It could be It's non-intimidating. It could be It's non-intimidating. It could be something to hand out to church members. something to hand out to church members. something to hand out to church members. Why should I give to my church? And then Why should I give to my church? And then Why should I give to my church? And then also he has a longer book called Church also he has a longer book called Church also he has a longer book called Church Budgeting for a Health a Healthy Church.

Budgeting for a Health a Healthy Church. Budgeting for a Health a Healthy Church. Um, did I miss any? Well, I should say Um, did I miss any? Well, I should say Um, did I miss any? Well, I should say first of all, welcome to the podcast, first of all, welcome to the podcast, first of all, welcome to the podcast, Jamie. Thanks for being with us. Jamie. Thanks for being with us. Jamie. Thanks for being with us. >> Oh, it's so good to be with you. Love >> Oh, it's so good to be with you. Love >> Oh, it's so good to be with you. Love you guys, too. Thank you. you guys, too. Thank you. you guys, too. Thank you. >> Have I missed any of your books? >> Have I missed any of your books? >> Have I missed any of your books? >> No, that's what you've got. Thank you. >> No, that's what you've got. Thank you. >> No, that's what you've got. Thank you. >> Okay. Yeah. Well, uh, it's an honor to >> Okay. Yeah. Well, uh, it's an honor to >> Okay. Yeah. Well, uh, it's an honor to talk with you about this. And in terms talk with you about this. And in terms talk with you about this. And in terms of uh giving, how did you come to think of uh giving, how did you come to think of uh giving, how did you come to think and write about that topic? You know, I and write about that topic? You know, I and write about that topic? You know, I think it's because I've been surprised think it's because I've been surprised think it's because I've been surprised uh when I talk about giving with my own uh when I talk about giving with my own uh when I talk about giving with my own congregation how refreshing very simple congregation how refreshing very simple congregation how refreshing very simple truths seem to be, which reminds me of truths seem to be, which reminds me of truths seem to be, which reminds me of uh how often we um abuse the topic in uh how often we um abuse the topic in uh how often we um abuse the topic in evangelicalism evangelicalism evangelicalism and how many uh bad ideas people come and how many uh bad ideas people come and how many uh bad ideas people come into my church with about giving. Uh how into my church with about giving. Uh how into my church with about giving. Uh how much baggage they come into the church much baggage they come into the church much baggage they come into the church with about giving. And so just saying with about giving. And so just saying with about giving. And so just saying very simple things that come right out very simple things that come right out very simple things that come right out of scripture uh seems more revolutionary of scripture uh seems more revolutionary of scripture uh seems more revolutionary than it should be. Uh and so that's um I than it should be. Uh and so that's um I than it should be. Uh and so that's um I think one of the reasons I've I've think one of the reasons I've I've think one of the reasons I've I've gotten more interested in the topic is gotten more interested in the topic is gotten more interested in the topic is just wanting to make sure the scripture just wanting to make sure the scripture just wanting to make sure the scripture speaks clearly because what it gives us speaks clearly because what it gives us speaks clearly because what it gives us is uh a vision of giving as a delight is uh a vision of giving as a delight is uh a vision of giving as a delight and a joy and an opportunity.

and a joy and an opportunity. and a joy and an opportunity. >> And let me let me amen that. And I think >> And let me let me amen that. And I think >> And let me let me amen that. And I think pastors pastors pastors have to take on a little bit of the role have to take on a little bit of the role have to take on a little bit of the role that fathers would have taken on in my that fathers would have taken on in my that fathers would have taken on in my generation. I mean, you guys are of a generation. I mean, you guys are of a generation. I mean, you guys are of a generation different from mine. And uh generation different from mine. And uh generation different from mine. And uh my dad was the one that talked to me my dad was the one that talked to me my dad was the one that talked to me about giving to the church. And uh you about giving to the church. And uh you about giving to the church. And uh you just don't have a lot of that in the just don't have a lot of that in the just don't have a lot of that in the younger generations that you are younger generations that you are younger generations that you are ministering to. I don't know how it was ministering to. I don't know how it was ministering to. I don't know how it was when you were growing up, but you know, when you were growing up, but you know, when you were growing up, but you know, I had I had elders I remember who talked I had I had elders I remember who talked I had I had elders I remember who talked to their own children and of the to their own children and of the to their own children and of the children of the church about why it was children of the church about why it was children of the church about why it was important to give and then it was like important to give and then it was like important to give and then it was like that dropped off the map like at the end that dropped off the map like at the end that dropped off the map like at the end of the 70s and um and so I I do think of the 70s and um and so I I do think of the 70s and um and so I I do think it's important and I in a and there's it's important and I in a and there's it's important and I in a and there's such bad teaching out there on giving as such bad teaching out there on giving as such bad teaching out there on giving as well and a lot of people are reacting to well and a lot of people are reacting to well and a lot of people are reacting to the bad teaching. So, they need good the bad teaching. So, they need good the bad teaching. So, they need good Bible teaching on it.

Bible teaching on it. Bible teaching on it. >> Yeah. Not all of us have the privilege >> Yeah. Not all of us have the privilege >> Yeah. Not all of us have the privilege of being fathered by a sixth generation of being fathered by a sixth generation of being fathered by a sixth generation Presbyterian minister. Presbyterian minister. Presbyterian minister. >> What [laughter] a blessing. Yes. >> What [laughter] a blessing. Yes. >> What [laughter] a blessing. Yes. >> Uh let let's talk first a little more >> Uh let let's talk first a little more >> Uh let let's talk first a little more about giving. So Jamie, you mentioned about giving. So Jamie, you mentioned about giving. So Jamie, you mentioned that you've found as you've addressed that you've found as you've addressed that you've found as you've addressed this topic, um it's been helpful for this topic, um it's been helpful for this topic, um it's been helpful for church members. It's not just this guilt church members. It's not just this guilt church members. It's not just this guilt inducing subject. It's something that inducing subject. It's something that inducing subject. It's something that can actually foster uh great joy and can can actually foster uh great joy and can can actually foster uh great joy and can strengthen muscles of faith. So, how strengthen muscles of faith. So, how strengthen muscles of faith. So, how broadly speaking, and we'll get more broadly speaking, and we'll get more broadly speaking, and we'll get more into specifics in a moment, but broadly into specifics in a moment, but broadly into specifics in a moment, but broadly speaking, how can pastors uh teach about speaking, how can pastors uh teach about speaking, how can pastors uh teach about giving in a way that's biblically giving in a way that's biblically giving in a way that's biblically faithful and pastorally wise? And maybe faithful and pastorally wise? And maybe faithful and pastorally wise? And maybe we just start by saying, what do you we just start by saying, what do you we just start by saying, what do you think are some of the biggest think are some of the biggest think are some of the biggest misunderstandings out there that you've misunderstandings out there that you've misunderstandings out there that you've encountered about giving to the church encountered about giving to the church encountered about giving to the church that a pastor has to be aware of as he that a pastor has to be aware of as he that a pastor has to be aware of as he seeks to model a more excellent way? seeks to model a more excellent way? seeks to model a more excellent way? >> Yeah. I mean, we live in an era where so >> Yeah. I mean, we live in an era where so >> Yeah. I mean, we live in an era where so much of what passes for Christianity is much of what passes for Christianity is much of what passes for Christianity is really the prosperity gospel. And I really the prosperity gospel. And I really the prosperity gospel. And I think evangelicals, even conservative think evangelicals, even conservative think evangelicals, even conservative evangelicals, have embied that much more evangelicals, have embied that much more evangelicals, have embied that much more than they realize. Even if they would than they realize. Even if they would than they realize. Even if they would deny it doctrinally, you're saying that deny it doctrinally, you're saying that deny it doctrinally, you're saying that there's a a form of it.

there's a a form of it. there's a a form of it. >> Yeah. They would say, "Well, of course." >> Yeah. They would say, "Well, of course." >> Yeah. They would say, "Well, of course." But and and yet deep inside they think, But and and yet deep inside they think, But and and yet deep inside they think, "Okay, if I want God to bless me, I need "Okay, if I want God to bless me, I need "Okay, if I want God to bless me, I need to give." And so kind of a give to get to give." And so kind of a give to get to give." And so kind of a give to get mentality, I think, is common. Um I mentality, I think, is common. Um I mentality, I think, is common. Um I think uh a legalistic approach to giving think uh a legalistic approach to giving think uh a legalistic approach to giving is also common. Uh the kind of God's is also common. Uh the kind of God's is also common. Uh the kind of God's going to get you. If you don't give your going to get you. If you don't give your going to get you. If you don't give your 10% then something bad is going to 10% then something bad is going to 10% then something bad is going to happen. I encountered that frequently. happen. I encountered that frequently. happen. I encountered that frequently. Maybe because as uh certainly as Maybe because as uh certainly as Maybe because as uh certainly as Americans, we view money as an extremely Americans, we view money as an extremely Americans, we view money as an extremely private affair. Uh people get very private affair. Uh people get very private affair. Uh people get very nervous when pastors talk about giving nervous when pastors talk about giving nervous when pastors talk about giving because they assume it's going to be a because they assume it's going to be a because they assume it's going to be a guilt trip. Um and you know, as a guilt trip. Um and you know, as a guilt trip. Um and you know, as a pastor, you have all that working pastor, you have all that working pastor, you have all that working against you. You have misunderstandings against you. You have misunderstandings against you. You have misunderstandings about how the Bible tells us to give. about how the Bible tells us to give. about how the Bible tells us to give. You have bad experiences people have You have bad experiences people have You have bad experiences people have had. And uh you got to wade through that had. And uh you got to wade through that had. And uh you got to wade through that as you're trying to help people clarify as you're trying to help people clarify as you're trying to help people clarify the the delightful truth that scripture the the delightful truth that scripture the the delightful truth that scripture gives us. gives us. gives us. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And and you >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And and you >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. And and you mentioned that um that guilt is is, you mentioned that um that guilt is is, you mentioned that um that guilt is is, you know, rarely an effective motivation, know, rarely an effective motivation, know, rarely an effective motivation, but you you point out in your booklet, but you you point out in your booklet, but you you point out in your booklet, why should I give to my church? that why should I give to my church? that why should I give to my church? that actually in the New Testament uh actually in the New Testament uh actually in the New Testament uh obligation and need don't factor very obligation and need don't factor very obligation and need don't factor very prominently into the into the New prominently into the into the New prominently into the into the New Testament's teaching about giving.

Testament's teaching about giving. Testament's teaching about giving. Instead, we see things like opportunity Instead, we see things like opportunity Instead, we see things like opportunity and joy, uh God's glory and reward. You and joy, uh God's glory and reward. You and joy, uh God's glory and reward. You you point out that giving out of you point out that giving out of you point out that giving out of obligation shows how obedient we are, obligation shows how obedient we are, obligation shows how obedient we are, but giving with joy or or with with but giving with joy or or with with but giving with joy or or with with cheer. 2 Corinthians 9:7 glorifies God. cheer. 2 Corinthians 9:7 glorifies God. cheer. 2 Corinthians 9:7 glorifies God. It it makes it obvious that you're doing It it makes it obvious that you're doing It it makes it obvious that you're doing something that only makes sense if something that only makes sense if something that only makes sense if you're a Christian, if Jesus died and you're a Christian, if Jesus died and you're a Christian, if Jesus died and rose again. So, how can pastors who are rose again. So, how can pastors who are rose again. So, how can pastors who are often, let's be honest, stressed about often, let's be honest, stressed about often, let's be honest, stressed about the financial situation of their church? the financial situation of their church? the financial situation of their church? They're wanting people to give more, how They're wanting people to give more, how They're wanting people to give more, how can they practically um motivate giving can they practically um motivate giving can they practically um motivate giving in a God-honoring, biblically faithful in a God-honoring, biblically faithful in a God-honoring, biblically faithful way? way? way? >> Well, I think our model is the Apostle >> Well, I think our model is the Apostle >> Well, I think our model is the Apostle Paul. Uh so you know as as you well know Paul. Uh so you know as as you well know Paul. Uh so you know as as you well know he ends Philippians with this um sort of he ends Philippians with this um sort of he ends Philippians with this um sort of a thank you note uh though it's a it's a thank you note uh though it's a it's a thank you note uh though it's a it's such a strange thank you note right he such a strange thank you note right he such a strange thank you note right he begins by saying begins by saying begins by saying I'm not speaking of being in need for I I'm not speaking of being in need for I I'm not speaking of being in need for I have learned to be content in every have learned to be content in every have learned to be content in every situation situation situation he makes it clear that he can do all he makes it clear that he can do all he makes it clear that he can do all things through him who strengthens him things through him who strengthens him things through him who strengthens him like that's just so different from the like that's just so different from the like that's just so different from the thank you notes you get when you give to thank you notes you get when you give to thank you notes you get when you give to a ministry right that basically who a ministry right that basically who a ministry right that basically who says, "Hey, thanks for your gift. Uh says, "Hey, thanks for your gift. Uh says, "Hey, thanks for your gift. Uh there's so much need out there. Um if there's so much need out there. Um if there's so much need out there. Um if you could please give more, that would you could please give more, that would you could please give more, that would be so." He doesn't do that at all. Um be so." He doesn't do that at all. Um be so." He doesn't do that at all. Um and I think that the kind of main thrust and I think that the kind of main thrust and I think that the kind of main thrust of what he has is uh Philippians 4:17.

of what he has is uh Philippians 4:17. of what he has is uh Philippians 4:17. He says, "Not that I seek the gift, but He says, "Not that I seek the gift, but He says, "Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your I seek the fruit that increases to your I seek the fruit that increases to your credit." Uh and he ends to our God and credit." Uh and he ends to our God and credit." Uh and he ends to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen. Father be glory forever and ever. Amen. Father be glory forever and ever. Amen. It's such a joyful note. uh he's he's It's such a joyful note. uh he's he's It's such a joyful note. uh he's he's clear that he's thankful for what they clear that he's thankful for what they clear that he's thankful for what they did and he loves the fact that they have did and he loves the fact that they have did and he loves the fact that they have uh as he puts a fellowship with him in uh as he puts a fellowship with him in uh as he puts a fellowship with him in his ministry through giving. Uh but the his ministry through giving. Uh but the his ministry through giving. Uh but the reason he wants them to give is not reason he wants them to give is not reason he wants them to give is not because he's concerned God's not going because he's concerned God's not going because he's concerned God's not going to provide for him. It's because he to provide for him. It's because he to provide for him. It's because he loves them and he knows that giving is loves them and he knows that giving is loves them and he knows that giving is good for them. And so as as a pastor, good for them. And so as as a pastor, good for them. And so as as a pastor, that is always in the back of my head that is always in the back of my head that is always in the back of my head whenever I think about giving that um I whenever I think about giving that um I whenever I think about giving that um I want to speak about giving because it's want to speak about giving because it's want to speak about giving because it's good for my congregation. Uh I want them good for my congregation. Uh I want them good for my congregation. Uh I want them to learn the joy of investing in the to learn the joy of investing in the to learn the joy of investing in the promises of Jesus rather than the promises of Jesus rather than the promises of Jesus rather than the promises of the world with their money. promises of the world with their money. promises of the world with their money. I want them to experience the freedom I want them to experience the freedom I want them to experience the freedom that comes from uh disconnecting my that comes from uh disconnecting my that comes from uh disconnecting my heart from my money. uh so that as Jesus heart from my money. uh so that as Jesus heart from my money. uh so that as Jesus says, I can put my heart on uh heavenly says, I can put my heart on uh heavenly says, I can put my heart on uh heavenly things and the heavenly treasure that things and the heavenly treasure that things and the heavenly treasure that awaits me there. Um and so that's really awaits me there. Um and so that's really awaits me there. Um and so that's really hard as a pastor, right? When when uh hard as a pastor, right? When when uh hard as a pastor, right? When when uh when you know that if they don't cough when you know that if they don't cough when you know that if they don't cough up more money, you're going to have to up more money, you're going to have to up more money, you're going to have to call a missionary home or you're going call a missionary home or you're going call a missionary home or you're going to have to lay off a staff person or to have to lay off a staff person or to have to lay off a staff person or you're not going to be able to uh to do you're not going to be able to uh to do you're not going to be able to uh to do that ministry you're hoping to. And yet that ministry you're hoping to. And yet that ministry you're hoping to. And yet it's so important that when you go it's so important that when you go it's so important that when you go before the congregation, you're saying,

before the congregation, you're saying, before the congregation, you're saying, "Look, I I encourage you to give because "Look, I I encourage you to give because "Look, I I encourage you to give because it's good for you. I trust that the it's good for you. I trust that the it's good for you. I trust that the Lord's going to provide everything Lord's going to provide everything Lord's going to provide everything that's good for us to have." Let let me that's good for us to have." Let let me that's good for us to have." Let let me amen that and then add just a practical amen that and then add just a practical amen that and then add just a practical word in because you've experienced this word in because you've experienced this word in because you've experienced this maybe more Jamie at Capitol Hill than a maybe more Jamie at Capitol Hill than a maybe more Jamie at Capitol Hill than a lot of churches do because of the nature lot of churches do because of the nature lot of churches do because of the nature of the cyclical election cycle in DC and of the cyclical election cycle in DC and of the cyclical election cycle in DC and the uncertainty about you know what the the uncertainty about you know what the the uncertainty about you know what the situation of congregational life is situation of congregational life is situation of congregational life is going to be you know employment going to be you know employment going to be you know employment unemployment etc. I I do think it's unemployment etc. I I do think it's unemployment etc. I I do think it's appropriate for pastors to care about appropriate for pastors to care about appropriate for pastors to care about being able to pay their staff and be being able to pay their staff and be being able to pay their staff and be able to give to missionaries that I I do able to give to missionaries that I I do able to give to missionaries that I I do think Paul elsewhere while while you're think Paul elsewhere while while you're think Paul elsewhere while while you're right he he does talk about these things right he he does talk about these things right he he does talk about these things as a matter of joy and and a matter of as a matter of joy and and a matter of as a matter of joy and and a matter of concern for them. He does feel the concern for them. He does feel the concern for them. He does feel the burden of the churches. And I think one burden of the churches. And I think one burden of the churches. And I think one of the burden of the churches that he of the burden of the churches that he of the burden of the churches that he feels is caring for those people back in feels is caring for those people back in feels is caring for those people back in Jerusalem who were under persecution. Jerusalem who were under persecution. Jerusalem who were under persecution. and that's why he wants to take a gift and that's why he wants to take a gift and that's why he wants to take a gift back to them from the Macedonians and back to them from the Macedonians and back to them from the Macedonians and and such. It's okay for us to feel that and such. It's okay for us to feel that and such. It's okay for us to feel that burden. But what what I what I also want burden. But what what I what I also want burden. But what what I what I also want to say is when we come to the to say is when we come to the to say is when we come to the congregation, congregation, congregation, we do need to talk to them about the we do need to talk to them about the we do need to talk to them about the things that you've just been talking things that you've just been talking things that you've just been talking about, the things that you talk about in about, the things that you talk about in about, the things that you talk about in the book, the things that the New the book, the things that the New the book, the things that the New Testament talks about to them because Testament talks about to them because Testament talks about to them because their giving isn't just God's means to their giving isn't just God's means to their giving isn't just God's means to answering those sorts of needs that they answering those sorts of needs that they answering those sorts of needs that they may be very real like a bunch of members may be very real like a bunch of members may be very real like a bunch of members of the congregation have lost their

of the congregation have lost their of the congregation have lost their jobs. They're not able to give the way jobs. They're not able to give the way jobs. They're not able to give the way they're supposed to give. We don't know they're supposed to give. We don't know they're supposed to give. We don't know how the church budget is going to come how the church budget is going to come how the church budget is going to come out this year. That's really not how we out this year. That's really not how we out this year. That's really not how we want to talk to the congregation, even want to talk to the congregation, even want to talk to the congregation, even when those situations arise. And even when those situations arise. And even when those situations arise. And even though it's appropriate for us to care though it's appropriate for us to care though it's appropriate for us to care about those kinds of things, cuz I, you about those kinds of things, cuz I, you about those kinds of things, cuz I, you know, as as the as a guy that runs a know, as as the as a guy that runs a know, as as the as a guy that runs a seminary, I'm always thinking about seminary, I'm always thinking about seminary, I'm always thinking about taking care of my people. And I don't taking care of my people. And I don't taking care of my people. And I don't have a membership like I used to have have a membership like I used to have have a membership like I used to have before. The the membership actually gave before. The the membership actually gave before. The the membership actually gave me more confidence that I was going to me more confidence that I was going to me more confidence that I was going to be able to take care of my people. So, I be able to take care of my people. So, I be able to take care of my people. So, I think it's good for pastors to care think it's good for pastors to care think it's good for pastors to care about that. And I think that's the about that. And I think that's the about that. And I think that's the experience that pastors have. They come experience that pastors have. They come experience that pastors have. They come from never having had to think about from never having had to think about from never having had to think about that to having to think about that. And that to having to think about that. And that to having to think about that. And then they pivot to guilt then they pivot to guilt then they pivot to guilt >> because they're appropriately burdened >> because they're appropriately burdened >> because they're appropriately burdened about that, but they're responding to it about that, but they're responding to it about that, but they're responding to it in the wrong way. So, the right way to in the wrong way. So, the right way to in the wrong way. So, the right way to do it is exactly what you and Matt have do it is exactly what you and Matt have do it is exactly what you and Matt have been talking about, which is go to the been talking about, which is go to the been talking about, which is go to the principles of the New Testament and talk principles of the New Testament and talk principles of the New Testament and talk about that. Not about the gosh, we're in about that. Not about the gosh, we're in about that. Not about the gosh, we're in a terrible situation now. we really need a terrible situation now. we really need a terrible situation now. we really need you to dig deep. You know, you you're you to dig deep. You know, you you're you to dig deep. You know, you you're wanting to train them in the right wanting to train them in the right wanting to train them in the right reasons to give. And I think, but you reasons to give. And I think, but you reasons to give. And I think, but you know, part of it is giving sets us free.

know, part of it is giving sets us free. know, part of it is giving sets us free. It helps sets us It helps set us free It helps sets us It helps set us free It helps sets us It helps set us free from the love of money, uh from from from the love of money, uh from from from the love of money, uh from from caring too much about things. It it caring too much about things. It it caring too much about things. It it reminds us of who everything that we reminds us of who everything that we reminds us of who everything that we have comes from. It's all a gift. Uh and have comes from. It's all a gift. Uh and have comes from. It's all a gift. Uh and we're stewards of it. It really we're stewards of it. It really we're stewards of it. It really ultimately doesn't belong to us. it ultimately doesn't belong to us. it ultimately doesn't belong to us. it belongs to God. And um it teaches us belongs to God. And um it teaches us belongs to God. And um it teaches us dependence upon him. Uh you know, think dependence upon him. Uh you know, think dependence upon him. Uh you know, think think of how that worked in the Old think of how that worked in the Old think of how that worked in the Old Testament with with tithing of the Testament with with tithing of the Testament with with tithing of the fruits of the what had been brought in fruits of the what had been brought in fruits of the what had been brought in through the harvest. Uh you know, that through the harvest. Uh you know, that through the harvest. Uh you know, that taught people, hey, depend upon God to taught people, hey, depend upon God to taught people, hey, depend upon God to provide for you. Even the Old Testament provide for you. Even the Old Testament provide for you. Even the Old Testament Sabbath law taught people in an agrarian Sabbath law taught people in an agrarian Sabbath law taught people in an agrarian society, you need to rest one day a week society, you need to rest one day a week society, you need to rest one day a week and trust God to provide for you. So and trust God to provide for you. So and trust God to provide for you. So that there are a lot of important that there are a lot of important that there are a lot of important spiritual lessons that the New Testament spiritual lessons that the New Testament spiritual lessons that the New Testament teaches that we need to learn out of our teaches that we need to learn out of our teaches that we need to learn out of our giving. And that's how the pastor wants giving. And that's how the pastor wants giving. And that's how the pastor wants to come to the congregation, not kind of to come to the congregation, not kind of to come to the congregation, not kind of in a panic um and and trying to twist in a panic um and and trying to twist in a panic um and and trying to twist arms in in order to, you know, get the arms in in order to, you know, get the arms in in order to, you know, get the budget paid, get the staff paid, get the budget paid, get the staff paid, get the budget paid, get the staff paid, get the missionaries supported. But we feel missionaries supported. But we feel missionaries supported. But we feel those things, don't we? I mean, you those things, don't we? I mean, you those things, don't we? I mean, you know, we we we can see people's faces, know, we we we can see people's faces, know, we we we can see people's faces, you know, um and and and it and and it you know, um and and and it and and it you know, um and and and it and and it tempts us to put pressure that has a tempts us to put pressure that has a tempts us to put pressure that has a negative result in the way that people negative result in the way that people negative result in the way that people think about their giving.

think about their giving. think about their giving. >> Yeah. I I try at least once a year at >> Yeah. I I try at least once a year at >> Yeah. I I try at least once a year at one of our members meetings to remind one of our members meetings to remind one of our members meetings to remind the congregation that one of the most the congregation that one of the most the congregation that one of the most precious commodities I trade into the precious commodities I trade into the precious commodities I trade into the pastor is their trust. that when I pastor is their trust. that when I pastor is their trust. that when I encourage them to give, it's because I encourage them to give, it's because I encourage them to give, it's because I love them, not because I need them. And love them, not because I need them. And love them, not because I need them. And I tell them there's a few things we do I tell them there's a few things we do I tell them there's a few things we do as a church to try to as a church to try to as a church to try to make that trust easier to give. You make that trust easier to give. You make that trust easier to give. You know, because if they know my back is up know, because if they know my back is up know, because if they know my back is up against the wall and I'm going to have against the wall and I'm going to have against the wall and I'm going to have to lay off staff if they don't give, to lay off staff if they don't give, to lay off staff if they don't give, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> it's only so credible when I say, >> it's only so credible when I say, >> it's only so credible when I say, "Please give because I love you." And so "Please give because I love you." And so "Please give because I love you." And so we have a reserve fund. uh we save some we have a reserve fund. uh we save some we have a reserve fund. uh we save some expenses till the end of the budget year expenses till the end of the budget year expenses till the end of the budget year when we know that uh we're in a good when we know that uh we're in a good when we know that uh we're in a good place place place >> and those are all financial tools so >> and those are all financial tools so >> and those are all financial tools so that I can with good conscience tell that I can with good conscience tell that I can with good conscience tell them them them >> give because I love you. >> give because I love you. >> give because I love you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I promise my congregation if we are >> And I promise my congregation if we are >> And I promise my congregation if we are ever in a financial place of difficulty ever in a financial place of difficulty ever in a financial place of difficulty I'll be honest with you.

I'll be honest with you. I'll be honest with you. >> Yeah. So, I will let you know, okay, >> Yeah. So, I will let you know, okay, >> Yeah. So, I will let you know, okay, this is the year that I'm ask you to this is the year that I'm ask you to this is the year that I'm ask you to give because if you don't, we will have give because if you don't, we will have give because if you don't, we will have to, you know, to, you know, to, you know, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> yeah, >> make some unfortunate short-term >> make some unfortunate short-term >> make some unfortunate short-term decisions with long-term ramifications. decisions with long-term ramifications. decisions with long-term ramifications. And when that happens, And when that happens, And when that happens, >> and that's the year when, you know, I'm >> and that's the year when, you know, I'm >> and that's the year when, you know, I'm encouraging you to give instead of encouraging you to give instead of encouraging you to give instead of contributing to your Roth IRA or I'm contributing to your Roth IRA or I'm contributing to your Roth IRA or I'm encouraging you to give more encouraging you to give more encouraging you to give more sacrificially than usual. sacrificially than usual. sacrificially than usual. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I'll be honest with you. And my hope is >> I'll be honest with you. And my hope is >> I'll be honest with you. And my hope is I only have to do that no more than once I only have to do that no more than once I only have to do that no more than once every 10 years. every 10 years. every 10 years. >> Really good. And we can try to manage >> Really good. And we can try to manage >> Really good. And we can try to manage things to make that statement. I love things to make that statement. I love things to make that statement. I love you. That's why I ask you to give to be you. That's why I ask you to give to be you. That's why I ask you to give to be credible. credible. credible. >> And let me let me just amen. I mean, the >> And let me let me just amen. I mean, the >> And let me let me just amen. I mean, the the the way that Jamie and Capitol Hill the the way that Jamie and Capitol Hill the the way that Jamie and Capitol Hill Baptist Church have done this is with Baptist Church have done this is with Baptist Church have done this is with with such um integrity and transparency with such um integrity and transparency with such um integrity and transparency in the budget process that it builds up in the budget process that it builds up in the budget process that it builds up congregational trust in what you're congregational trust in what you're congregational trust in what you're giving to and how you're stewarding the giving to and how you're stewarding the giving to and how you're stewarding the funds. And with so much institutional funds. And with so much institutional funds. And with so much institutional suspicion amongst young people today, suspicion amongst young people today, suspicion amongst young people today, that is absolutely crucial to be able to that is absolutely crucial to be able to that is absolutely crucial to be able to getting to the issues that the New getting to the issues that the New getting to the issues that the New Testament wants to talk to them about so Testament wants to talk to them about so Testament wants to talk to them about so that they don't have things that are that they don't have things that are that they don't have things that are actually making them say, "Well, I'm not actually making them say, "Well, I'm not actually making them say, "Well, I'm not sure I really trust the the the the sure I really trust the the the the sure I really trust the the the the elders of the church with, you know, elders of the church with, you know, elders of the church with, you know, with with how that's being done." And so with with how that's being done." And so with with how that's being done." And so those kinds of things are more important those kinds of things are more important those kinds of things are more important than ever with the kind of suspicion of than ever with the kind of suspicion of than ever with the kind of suspicion of institutions and with the huers out institutions and with the huers out institutions and with the huers out there that are that are scaring up fake

there that are that are scaring up fake there that are that are scaring up fake crises to try and raise money for what crises to try and raise money for what crises to try and raise money for what are not crises uh or and and even for are not crises uh or and and even for are not crises uh or and and even for things that are not good causes. You things that are not good causes. You things that are not good causes. You know, your your jet or whatever it is know, your your jet or whatever it is know, your your jet or whatever it is that that you're trying to twist that that you're trying to twist that that you're trying to twist people's arm to give to. Um, so I think people's arm to give to. Um, so I think people's arm to give to. Um, so I think I think the the way you're talking about I think the the way you're talking about I think the the way you're talking about really needs to get in the bloodstream really needs to get in the bloodstream really needs to get in the bloodstream of pastors um, so that we're not I mean of pastors um, so that we're not I mean of pastors um, so that we're not I mean my congregation there was a cycle of my congregation there was a cycle of my congregation there was a cycle of giving because of their socioeconomic giving because of their socioeconomic giving because of their socioeconomic situation. situation. situation. A lot of our giving came in in December. A lot of our giving came in in December. A lot of our giving came in in December. We were on a calendar year giving which We were on a calendar year giving which We were on a calendar year giving which meant most of the year I was in the red meant most of the year I was in the red meant most of the year I was in the red in the budget. And so I I was always, in the budget. And so I I was always, in the budget. And so I I was always, you know, I I was tempted to an ungodly you know, I I was tempted to an ungodly you know, I I was tempted to an ungodly worry worry worry >> uh because of the way that they give. A >> uh because of the way that they give. A >> uh because of the way that they give. A lot of our a lot of my people got lot of our a lot of my people got lot of our a lot of my people got partnership shares at the end of the partnership shares at the end of the partnership shares at the end of the year and they did not know what they year and they did not know what they year and they did not know what they were going to make until Decemberish.

were going to make until Decemberish. were going to make until Decemberish. And so invariably we were waiting until And so invariably we were waiting until And so invariably we were waiting until the midnight hour of December 31st to the midnight hour of December 31st to the midnight hour of December 31st to know how we had come out. And that know how we had come out. And that know how we had come out. And that tempted me in some bad directions. And tempted me in some bad directions. And tempted me in some bad directions. And so I had to really sort of say to myself so I had to really sort of say to myself so I had to really sort of say to myself in my head what you were just saying so in my head what you were just saying so in my head what you were just saying so that I didn't come every year to the that I didn't come every year to the that I didn't come every year to the congregation congregation congregation with an unnecessary with an unnecessary with an unnecessary panic or urgency or appeal. panic or urgency or appeal. panic or urgency or appeal. >> Yeah. Cuz then they tune you out, right? >> Yeah. Cuz then they tune you out, right? >> Yeah. Cuz then they tune you out, right? It's like, oh yeah, this is what happens It's like, oh yeah, this is what happens It's like, oh yeah, this is what happens every year. every year. every year. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and you having to wrestle through >> And and you having to wrestle through >> And and you having to wrestle through that is the same thing you're asking that is the same thing you're asking that is the same thing you're asking them to wrestle through. them to wrestle through. them to wrestle through. >> Correct. uh because for them to be >> Correct. uh because for them to be >> Correct. uh because for them to be faithful givers, they're going to have faithful givers, they're going to have faithful givers, they're going to have to encounter all the same temptations. to encounter all the same temptations. to encounter all the same temptations. And it is no accident, I think, that And it is no accident, I think, that And it is no accident, I think, that pastors pastors pastors >> in their own special way have to wrestle >> in their own special way have to wrestle >> in their own special way have to wrestle through the same things. And we can be through the same things. And we can be through the same things. And we can be models of faithfulness for the models of faithfulness for the models of faithfulness for the congregation and how we talk about the congregation and how we talk about the congregation and how we talk about the church's finances. church's finances. church's finances. >> It reminds me, Jamie, of something you >> It reminds me, Jamie, of something you >> It reminds me, Jamie, of something you you write in the budgeting book. You you you write in the budgeting book. You you you write in the budgeting book. You you write, "Special appeals for money are write, "Special appeals for money are write, "Special appeals for money are often worded as to assume that most often worded as to assume that most often worded as to assume that most people aren't giving faithfully." For people aren't giving faithfully." For people aren't giving faithfully." For example, if each of you would skip one example, if each of you would skip one example, if each of you would skip one latte each week for the next year, we latte each week for the next year, we latte each week for the next year, we could close our budget gap. But embedded could close our budget gap. But embedded could close our budget gap. But embedded in that language, you write is the in that language, you write is the in that language, you write is the assumption that Christians in your assumption that Christians in your assumption that Christians in your church will normally use their finances church will normally use their finances church will normally use their finances in selfish ways and that faithfulness is in selfish ways and that faithfulness is in selfish ways and that faithfulness is abnormal.

abnormal. abnormal. >> Even if you have doubts about your >> Even if you have doubts about your >> Even if you have doubts about your flock's faithfulness, flock's faithfulness, flock's faithfulness, >> do not normalize faithlessness. >> do not normalize faithlessness. >> do not normalize faithlessness. >> An appropriate appeal is not, "I know >> An appropriate appeal is not, "I know >> An appropriate appeal is not, "I know you're all spending money on stuff you you're all spending money on stuff you you're all spending money on stuff you don't need. please give it to the church don't need. please give it to the church don't need. please give it to the church instead, but rather this is you. This is instead, but rather this is you. This is instead, but rather this is you. This is the year to give in ways that you likely the year to give in ways that you likely the year to give in ways that you likely won't be able to repeat year after year. won't be able to repeat year after year. won't be able to repeat year after year. So, communicate an expectation that So, communicate an expectation that So, communicate an expectation that healthy Christians will be faithful with healthy Christians will be faithful with healthy Christians will be faithful with their money. I think that's a great their money. I think that's a great their money. I think that's a great word. And just to return to to one thing word. And just to return to to one thing word. And just to return to to one thing you guys said earlier, it can be so easy you guys said earlier, it can be so easy you guys said earlier, it can be so easy as pastors uh to want to motivate giving as pastors uh to want to motivate giving as pastors uh to want to motivate giving through either appealing to people's through either appealing to people's through either appealing to people's emotions or kind of trying to coers emotions or kind of trying to coers emotions or kind of trying to coers their wills, but it's striking to me, their wills, but it's striking to me, their wills, but it's striking to me, we've already referenced 2 Corinthians we've already referenced 2 Corinthians we've already referenced 2 Corinthians 9, how Paul, when he's wanting to drum 9, how Paul, when he's wanting to drum 9, how Paul, when he's wanting to drum up support for the Macedonian up support for the Macedonian up support for the Macedonian Christians, he does not seek to motivate Christians, he does not seek to motivate Christians, he does not seek to motivate the Corinthians through emotions or the Corinthians through emotions or the Corinthians through emotions or their will, though that would have been their will, though that would have been their will, though that would have been really easy. So, he doesn't say just really easy. So, he doesn't say just really easy. So, he doesn't say just merely, "Think about all those poor merely, "Think about all those poor merely, "Think about all those poor starving Christians in Macedonia kind of starving Christians in Macedonia kind of starving Christians in Macedonia kind of manipulating their emotions." Nor does manipulating their emotions." Nor does manipulating their emotions." Nor does he say, "I'm an apostle. Open your he say, "I'm an apostle. Open your he say, "I'm an apostle. Open your wallets." Rather, he says 2 Corinthians wallets." Rather, he says 2 Corinthians wallets." Rather, he says 2 Corinthians 8:9, "For you know the grace of the Lord 8:9, "For you know the grace of the Lord 8:9, "For you know the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ that though he was rich, Jesus Christ that though he was rich, Jesus Christ that though he was rich, became poor, so that you through his became poor, so that you through his became poor, so that you through his poverty might become rich." He appeals poverty might become rich." He appeals poverty might become rich." He appeals to God's generosity in the gospel as the to God's generosity in the gospel as the to God's generosity in the gospel as the ultimate motivation for us to give in ultimate motivation for us to give in ultimate motivation for us to give in ways that will not make sense to the

ways that will not make sense to the ways that will not make sense to the world. And Jamie, one of the things that world. And Jamie, one of the things that world. And Jamie, one of the things that that I've heard you speak about that's that I've heard you speak about that's that I've heard you speak about that's really I think a helpful window into a a really I think a helpful window into a a really I think a helpful window into a a well-known text is Jesus's words in well-known text is Jesus's words in well-known text is Jesus's words in Matthew 6 20 and 21. Lay up for Matthew 6 20 and 21. Lay up for Matthew 6 20 and 21. Lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven. And then yourselves treasures in heaven. And then yourselves treasures in heaven. And then he says, "For where your treasure is, he says, "For where your treasure is, he says, "For where your treasure is, there your heart will be." Also, you there your heart will be." Also, you there your heart will be." Also, you talk about how that classic text talk about how that classic text talk about how that classic text functions both as a thermometer and a functions both as a thermometer and a functions both as a thermometer and a thermostat. Can you talk about what you thermostat. Can you talk about what you thermostat. Can you talk about what you mean? If you find that you are mainly mean? If you find that you are mainly mean? If you find that you are mainly worried about things in this world, uh worried about things in this world, uh worried about things in this world, uh your financial situation, uh that's your financial situation, uh that's your financial situation, uh that's that's Matthew 6 is a thermometer. that's Matthew 6 is a thermometer. that's Matthew 6 is a thermometer. That's telling you that your heart is That's telling you that your heart is That's telling you that your heart is not where it needs to be. And that's a not where it needs to be. And that's a not where it needs to be. And that's a warning sign. It it's telling you the warning sign. It it's telling you the warning sign. It it's telling you the temperature of your heart. At the same temperature of your heart. At the same temperature of your heart. At the same time, Matthew 6, as you said, works as a time, Matthew 6, as you said, works as a time, Matthew 6, as you said, works as a thermostat. It can change the thermostat. It can change the thermostat. It can change the temperature of your heart. Well, how do temperature of your heart. Well, how do temperature of your heart. Well, how do you change the temperature of your you change the temperature of your you change the temperature of your heart? Well, you begin to give. Uh you heart? Well, you begin to give. Uh you heart? Well, you begin to give. Uh you begin to give and uh you will find that begin to give and uh you will find that begin to give and uh you will find that your heart follows your treasure. You your heart follows your treasure. You your heart follows your treasure. You know, if uh if you are uh investing in know, if uh if you are uh investing in know, if uh if you are uh investing in Nike stock, uh well, at the time of this Nike stock, uh well, at the time of this Nike stock, uh well, at the time of this recording, Nike stock has plunged recording, Nike stock has plunged recording, Nike stock has plunged recently. Uh, and you're probably paying recently. Uh, and you're probably paying recently. Uh, and you're probably paying extra attention to that because that's extra attention to that because that's extra attention to that because that's where your treasure is. Um, if you where your treasure is. Um, if you where your treasure is. Um, if you invest in the promises of Jesus by invest in the promises of Jesus by invest in the promises of Jesus by investing in the great commission, uh, investing in the great commission, uh, investing in the great commission, uh, then that's where your heart's going to then that's where your heart's going to then that's where your heart's going to be. You're going to be following where be. You're going to be following where be. You're going to be following where your treasure is. And we want to put our your treasure is. And we want to put our your treasure is. And we want to put our treasure in heaven. So, yeah, you can treasure in heaven. So, yeah, you can treasure in heaven. So, yeah, you can you can see the attitude of your heart

you can see the attitude of your heart you can see the attitude of your heart toward giving. It's going to tell you toward giving. It's going to tell you toward giving. It's going to tell you the temperature of your heart. And if the temperature of your heart. And if the temperature of your heart. And if it's not hot like it should be, uh, give it's not hot like it should be, uh, give it's not hot like it should be, uh, give things away this world values to invest things away this world values to invest things away this world values to invest in things that Jesus values. And you're in things that Jesus values. And you're in things that Jesus values. And you're going to find that begins to inflect the going to find that begins to inflect the going to find that begins to inflect the temperature of your heart. temperature of your heart. temperature of your heart. >> Yeah. One of the things I love, Jamie, >> Yeah. One of the things I love, Jamie, >> Yeah. One of the things I love, Jamie, about the way you approach this topic about the way you approach this topic about the way you approach this topic and write about it is you're not and write about it is you're not and write about it is you're not inducing guilt, but you are calling inducing guilt, but you are calling inducing guilt, but you are calling people to this high soaring vision people to this high soaring vision people to this high soaring vision >> because of how countercultural and even >> because of how countercultural and even >> because of how countercultural and even revolutionary revolutionary revolutionary it's going to look like to spend money it's going to look like to spend money it's going to look like to spend money on things that don't make sense to the on things that don't make sense to the on things that don't make sense to the world. Um you you at one point say that world. Um you you at one point say that world. Um you you at one point say that if you're a Christian you should be if you're a Christian you should be if you're a Christian you should be living and by implication giving so that living and by implication giving so that living and by implication giving so that if heaven turns out not to be real your if heaven turns out not to be real your if heaven turns out not to be real your life will have been an utter failure a life will have been an utter failure a life will have been an utter failure a calamity kind of along the lines of what calamity kind of along the lines of what calamity kind of along the lines of what Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. So every Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. So every Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15. So every time we give we're making a statement time we give we're making a statement time we give we're making a statement >> that God is better than anything that >> that God is better than anything that >> that God is better than anything that money could have bought.

money could have bought. money could have bought. >> And that's why God loves a cheerful >> And that's why God loves a cheerful >> And that's why God loves a cheerful giver. Right. Yeah. Because God doesn't giver. Right. Yeah. Because God doesn't giver. Right. Yeah. Because God doesn't need your money. Uh his plans are not on need your money. Uh his plans are not on need your money. Uh his plans are not on hold until you cough up some cash. Uh hold until you cough up some cash. Uh hold until you cough up some cash. Uh God loves a cheerful giver because God loves a cheerful giver because God loves a cheerful giver because you're giving shows the worth of who he you're giving shows the worth of who he you're giving shows the worth of who he really is. And that's delightful to him. really is. And that's delightful to him. really is. And that's delightful to him. >> Yeah. We say in our the tagline of this >> Yeah. We say in our the tagline of this >> Yeah. We say in our the tagline of this podcast, we say that on the nuts and podcast, we say that on the nuts and podcast, we say that on the nuts and bolts of ministry. So here's a real bolts of ministry. So here's a real bolts of ministry. So here's a real nutsy and boltsy question regarding nutsy and boltsy question regarding nutsy and boltsy question regarding giving uh that comes up a lot. Should giving uh that comes up a lot. Should giving uh that comes up a lot. Should pastors be aware of what individuals in pastors be aware of what individuals in pastors be aware of what individuals in the church are giving? the church are giving? the church are giving? >> Well, I think there's two dangers you >> Well, I think there's two dangers you >> Well, I think there's two dangers you need to be aware of. The first is your need to be aware of. The first is your need to be aware of. The first is your own heart as a pastor. Uh, and I think own heart as a pastor. Uh, and I think own heart as a pastor. Uh, and I think that's the first thing that pastors go that's the first thing that pastors go that's the first thing that pastors go to when they think about this question to when they think about this question to when they think about this question of uh, can I obey James's command to not of uh, can I obey James's command to not of uh, can I obey James's command to not be partial be partial be partial if I know who gives the most to my if I know who gives the most to my if I know who gives the most to my congregation? congregation? congregation? And I think many pastors can uh and you And I think many pastors can uh and you And I think many pastors can uh and you probably already know uh who the big probably already know uh who the big probably already know uh who the big givers likely are in the congregation givers likely are in the congregation givers likely are in the congregation just by virtue of what jobs people have just by virtue of what jobs people have just by virtue of what jobs people have and and generally how enthusiastic and and generally how enthusiastic and and generally how enthusiastic people feel about your ministry. I think people feel about your ministry. I think people feel about your ministry. I think there's another concern though and there's another concern though and there's another concern though and that's the heart of the member. Um I that's the heart of the member. Um I that's the heart of the member. Um I never want someone to give to impress never want someone to give to impress never want someone to give to impress me. Um, I have had sometimes people who me. Um, I have had sometimes people who me. Um, I have had sometimes people who have emailed me to tell me, you know, I have emailed me to tell me, you know, I have emailed me to tell me, you know, I was giving this and now I'm giving this.

was giving this and now I'm giving this. was giving this and now I'm giving this. And clearly the email is designed to And clearly the email is designed to And clearly the email is designed to impress me. I promise you it does impress me. I promise you it does impress me. I promise you it does anything but that. [laughter] It just it anything but that. [laughter] It just it anything but that. [laughter] It just it feels yucky. Um, I want you to give feels yucky. Um, I want you to give feels yucky. Um, I want you to give because you love your savior, not because you love your savior, not because you love your savior, not because you want to impress your pastor. because you want to impress your pastor. because you want to impress your pastor. >> Yeah. And so I generally counsel people >> Yeah. And so I generally counsel people >> Yeah. And so I generally counsel people to not know how much their members give to not know how much their members give to not know how much their members give and to tell their members that they and to tell their members that they and to tell their members that they don't know to protect their members don't know to protect their members don't know to protect their members hearts. Uh even if they themselves feel hearts. Uh even if they themselves feel hearts. Uh even if they themselves feel like they can avoid the risk of like they can avoid the risk of like they can avoid the risk of partiality. And yet I do think it's partiality. And yet I do think it's partiality. And yet I do think it's useful for pastors to know who doesn't useful for pastors to know who doesn't useful for pastors to know who doesn't give it all. Um either because those are give it all. Um either because those are give it all. Um either because those are people who may be in special need of people who may be in special need of people who may be in special need of benevolence uh or because those are benevolence uh or because those are benevolence uh or because those are people who are in special need of people who are in special need of people who are in special need of pastoring. But, you know, if someone pastoring. But, you know, if someone pastoring. But, you know, if someone doesn't give at all, doesn't give at all, doesn't give at all, I think it's it's unusual that the I think it's it's unusual that the I think it's it's unusual that the pastorally wise thing to do is to call pastorally wise thing to do is to call pastorally wise thing to do is to call them up and say, "Hey, so you don't them up and say, "Hey, so you don't them up and say, "Hey, so you don't give." Cuz what they're going to give give." Cuz what they're going to give give." Cuz what they're going to give $10 next month to get off your your $10 next month to get off your your $10 next month to get off your your shame list, right? shame list, right? shame list, right? >> Very often, I think giving is one of the >> Very often, I think giving is one of the >> Very often, I think giving is one of the last things that falls into place is last things that falls into place is last things that falls into place is people seek to be faithful to Christ.

people seek to be faithful to Christ. people seek to be faithful to Christ. Uh, and so if someone is not giving, I Uh, and so if someone is not giving, I Uh, and so if someone is not giving, I just want to pastor them better. I want just want to pastor them better. I want just want to pastor them better. I want to make sure that they're building to make sure that they're building to make sure that they're building friends in the church. I want to make friends in the church. I want to make friends in the church. I want to make sure that I'm giving them special sure that I'm giving them special sure that I'm giving them special attention, praying with them in attention, praying with them in attention, praying with them in particular, praying not mainly they particular, praying not mainly they particular, praying not mainly they would give but praying that they would would give but praying that they would would give but praying that they would be faithful with their whole lives. And be faithful with their whole lives. And be faithful with their whole lives. And I assume as someone is faithful with I assume as someone is faithful with I assume as someone is faithful with their whole life, giving is going to be their whole life, giving is going to be their whole life, giving is going to be a part of that. Uh so I I do think it's a part of that. Uh so I I do think it's a part of that. Uh so I I do think it's useful to know who doesn't give at all. useful to know who doesn't give at all. useful to know who doesn't give at all. Uh not mainly because you want them to Uh not mainly because you want them to Uh not mainly because you want them to start giving, but mainly because you start giving, but mainly because you start giving, but mainly because you want them to start living faithfully as want them to start living faithfully as want them to start living faithfully as a Christian. When I was raising money uh a Christian. When I was raising money uh a Christian. When I was raising money uh initially with a view to planting River initially with a view to planting River initially with a view to planting River City Baptist here in Richmond, one of City Baptist here in Richmond, one of City Baptist here in Richmond, one of the things I would say is that if our the things I would say is that if our the things I would say is that if our church is successful in the early years, church is successful in the early years, church is successful in the early years, we're going to struggle financially. And we're going to struggle financially. And we're going to struggle financially. And what I meant by that was if we're really what I meant by that was if we're really what I meant by that was if we're really reaching lost people and not just, you reaching lost people and not just, you reaching lost people and not just, you know, helping rearrange sheep from know, helping rearrange sheep from know, helping rearrange sheep from congregation to congregation in the congregation to congregation in the congregation to congregation in the Richmond area. Richmond area. Richmond area. >> Well, the last thing to be discipled in >> Well, the last thing to be discipled in >> Well, the last thing to be discipled in someone's life is often in their wallet, someone's life is often in their wallet, someone's life is often in their wallet, >> as you just alluded to. So, if we're >> as you just alluded to. So, if we're >> as you just alluded to. So, if we're really really really there's going to be a lag time where there's going to be a lag time where there's going to be a lag time where their sacrificial giving has to catch up their sacrificial giving has to catch up their sacrificial giving has to catch up with their Christian maturity, which with their Christian maturity, which with their Christian maturity, which means that there's going to be a level means that there's going to be a level means that there's going to be a level of financial struggle. Um, and so I'm of financial struggle. Um, and so I'm of financial struggle. Um, and so I'm glad you you mentioned that, Jamie. as glad you you mentioned that, Jamie. as glad you you mentioned that, Jamie. as as we also think and we've already kind as we also think and we've already kind as we also think and we've already kind of alluded to it as we also think about of alluded to it as we also think about of alluded to it as we also think about uh church budgeting you I think so uh church budgeting you I think so uh church budgeting you I think so helpfully talk about the church budget

helpfully talk about the church budget helpfully talk about the church budget not primarily as a financial document not primarily as a financial document not primarily as a financial document but as a spiritual document uh you write but as a spiritual document uh you write but as a spiritual document uh you write in in your book budgeting for a healthy in in your book budgeting for a healthy in in your book budgeting for a healthy church to understand what really matters church to understand what really matters church to understand what really matters to a church look past its vision to a church look past its vision to a church look past its vision statement past its website past its statement past its website past its statement past its website past its glossy brochures and look at its budget glossy brochures and look at its budget glossy brochures and look at its budget >> follow the money. A church budget is >> follow the money. A church budget is >> follow the money. A church budget is more than spreadsheets and numbers. It's more than spreadsheets and numbers. It's more than spreadsheets and numbers. It's a window into the heart of a church, a window into the heart of a church, a window into the heart of a church, illuminating the values and priorities illuminating the values and priorities illuminating the values and priorities of God's people. If you care about your of God's people. If you care about your of God's people. If you care about your church, you will care about its budget church, you will care about its budget church, you will care about its budget because a budget reveals, facilitates, because a budget reveals, facilitates, because a budget reveals, facilitates, and sometimes calcifies how a church and sometimes calcifies how a church and sometimes calcifies how a church does its work. And before I ask you to does its work. And before I ask you to does its work. And before I ask you to reflect on that, Jamie, I just want to reflect on that, Jamie, I just want to reflect on that, Jamie, I just want to point out this is the everyday pastor point out this is the everyday pastor point out this is the everyday pastor podcast. This is not the everyday church podcast. This is not the everyday church podcast. This is not the everyday church administrator podcast. It's not the administrator podcast. It's not the administrator podcast. It's not the everyday administrative committee member everyday administrative committee member everyday administrative committee member podcast. [snorts] In the quote I just podcast. [snorts] In the quote I just podcast. [snorts] In the quote I just read when I when it says if you care read when I when it says if you care read when I when it says if you care about your church, you will care about about your church, you will care about about your church, you will care about your budget. I just want to say to your budget. I just want to say to your budget. I just want to say to pastors listening, you can't just pastors listening, you can't just pastors listening, you can't just delegate this to someone else. uh you delegate this to someone else. uh you delegate this to someone else. uh you can delegate the the practical details can delegate the the practical details can delegate the the practical details of it, the execution of it, but in terms of it, the execution of it, but in terms of it, the execution of it, but in terms of overseeing the process, caring about of overseeing the process, caring about of overseeing the process, caring about it, understanding that your budget is it, understanding that your budget is it, understanding that your budget is indicative of and reflective of your indicative of and reflective of your indicative of and reflective of your church's spiritual priorities. It's church's spiritual priorities. It's church's spiritual priorities. It's something that you need to care about, something that you need to care about, something that you need to care about, too. So, Jamie, talk a little bit about too. So, Jamie, talk a little bit about too. So, Jamie, talk a little bit about what you're getting at when you frame a what you're getting at when you frame a what you're getting at when you frame a church budget as a pastoral tool and a

church budget as a pastoral tool and a church budget as a pastoral tool and a spiritual document. spiritual document. spiritual document. >> Yeah. Well, just like a marriage, a >> Yeah. Well, just like a marriage, a >> Yeah. Well, just like a marriage, a budget is much more a communication tool budget is much more a communication tool budget is much more a communication tool than a financial tool. Uh, is you think than a financial tool. Uh, is you think than a financial tool. Uh, is you think about your church. Uh, I can't think of about your church. Uh, I can't think of about your church. Uh, I can't think of a better articulation of your real a better articulation of your real a better articulation of your real spiritual values than your church spiritual values than your church spiritual values than your church budget. And one says, I don't care what budget. And one says, I don't care what budget. And one says, I don't care what you say on your website. I don't care you say on your website. I don't care you say on your website. I don't care what you say in your new members class. what you say in your new members class. what you say in your new members class. I want to look at your budget. Uh, I want to look at your budget. Uh, I want to look at your budget. Uh, because that tells me what you really because that tells me what you really because that tells me what you really care about. You know, if your church care about. You know, if your church care about. You know, if your church says, "We think that the church is says, "We think that the church is says, "We think that the church is fueled by the preach word of God and you fueled by the preach word of God and you fueled by the preach word of God and you keep your pastor on starvation wages." keep your pastor on starvation wages." keep your pastor on starvation wages." Ah, now I see what you really care Ah, now I see what you really care Ah, now I see what you really care about. Uh, if if you say that your about. Uh, if if you say that your about. Uh, if if you say that your church is passionate about the great church is passionate about the great church is passionate about the great commission and you give 2% to missions, commission and you give 2% to missions, commission and you give 2% to missions, okay, I see what you really care about. okay, I see what you really care about. okay, I see what you really care about. Um, so it's an articulation of spiritual Um, so it's an articulation of spiritual Um, so it's an articulation of spiritual values, but also the decisions that go values, but also the decisions that go values, but also the decisions that go into a budget are spiritual tradeoffs. into a budget are spiritual tradeoffs. into a budget are spiritual tradeoffs. uh you know, do we build a new uh you know, do we build a new uh you know, do we build a new playground or do we help that church playground or do we help that church playground or do we help that church planter over there? What is the line planter over there? What is the line planter over there? What is the line between generous pay and excessive pay?

between generous pay and excessive pay? between generous pay and excessive pay? Uh when is it time to tell a missionary, Uh when is it time to tell a missionary, Uh when is it time to tell a missionary, you know, we don't think the work you're you know, we don't think the work you're you know, we don't think the work you're doing is worthwhile and it's time to doing is worthwhile and it's time to doing is worthwhile and it's time to come home? come home? come home? Those are those are spiritually fraught Those are those are spiritually fraught Those are those are spiritually fraught decisions. Those are not financial decisions. Those are not financial decisions. Those are not financial decisions. Those are spiritual decisions. Those are spiritual decisions. Those are spiritual decisions. Uh and as a pastor, you are decisions. Uh and as a pastor, you are decisions. Uh and as a pastor, you are the spiritual leader of your the spiritual leader of your the spiritual leader of your congregation. And so I think you have a congregation. And so I think you have a congregation. And so I think you have a particular role to play with the elders particular role to play with the elders particular role to play with the elders around you uh to help the congregation around you uh to help the congregation around you uh to help the congregation make those very spiritual, often very make those very spiritual, often very make those very spiritual, often very difficult decisions. difficult decisions. difficult decisions. >> Jamie, at this point in your ministry, >> Jamie, at this point in your ministry, >> Jamie, at this point in your ministry, how many church budget cycles have you how many church budget cycles have you how many church budget cycles have you been a part of as a pastor? been a part of as a pastor? been a part of as a pastor? >> Let's see. uh I guess three as a member >> Let's see. uh I guess three as a member >> Let's see. uh I guess three as a member of the session as a non-staff elder and of the session as a non-staff elder and of the session as a non-staff elder and then I think I'm embarking on my 17th as then I think I'm embarking on my 17th as then I think I'm embarking on my 17th as uh one of the staff elders as one of the uh one of the staff elders as one of the uh one of the staff elders as one of the pastors. That's a ton of experience and pastors. That's a ton of experience and pastors. That's a ton of experience and so uh of course people uh listening to so uh of course people uh listening to so uh of course people uh listening to this are going to be in churches with this are going to be in churches with this are going to be in churches with different uh polities, different different uh polities, different different uh polities, different approaches to exactly what approaches to exactly what approaches to exactly what congregational involvement looks like congregational involvement looks like congregational involvement looks like along the way. But a church budget is is along the way. But a church budget is is along the way. But a church budget is is is an annual thing that every pastor has is an annual thing that every pastor has is an annual thing that every pastor has to lead through. And so can you kind of to lead through. And so can you kind of to lead through. And so can you kind of just walk us through what the uh process just walk us through what the uh process just walk us through what the uh process looks like at Capitol Hill Baptist uh in looks like at Capitol Hill Baptist uh in looks like at Capitol Hill Baptist uh in terms of how the congregation is terms of how the congregation is terms of how the congregation is involved and even how the elders are

involved and even how the elders are involved and even how the elders are setting the direction and giving the setting the direction and giving the setting the direction and giving the vision for what that church budget ought vision for what that church budget ought vision for what that church budget ought to reflect. Uh that's a very dangerous to reflect. Uh that's a very dangerous to reflect. Uh that's a very dangerous question, Matt, because uh our process question, Matt, because uh our process question, Matt, because uh our process doesn't come out of the scriptures. U doesn't come out of the scriptures. U doesn't come out of the scriptures. U it's very specific to this congregation, it's very specific to this congregation, it's very specific to this congregation, this place, our church size. You know, this place, our church size. You know, this place, our church size. You know, we're we're a church of about 850 we're we're a church of about 850 we're we're a church of about 850 members. Um in an urban context, uh members. Um in an urban context, uh members. Um in an urban context, uh mainly young. Um I'll I'll I'll answer mainly young. Um I'll I'll I'll answer mainly young. Um I'll I'll I'll answer your question. I I just want to give, your question. I I just want to give, your question. I I just want to give, you know, suitable caveats to begin with you know, suitable caveats to begin with you know, suitable caveats to begin with that, you know, that, you know, that, you know, >> it can and should look different for you >> it can and should look different for you >> it can and should look different for you all. all. all. >> Uh, our budget year begins August 1st. >> Uh, our budget year begins August 1st. >> Uh, our budget year begins August 1st. Probably the only church in the world to Probably the only church in the world to Probably the only church in the world to begin their budget year August 1st. begin their budget year August 1st. begin their budget year August 1st. There's reasons for that. Historically, There's reasons for that. Historically, There's reasons for that. Historically, I don't need to go into that. Um, but I don't need to go into that. Um, but I don't need to go into that. Um, but that means our budget process, that means our budget process, that means our budget process, uh, some years kicks off in January when uh, some years kicks off in January when uh, some years kicks off in January when it looks like there's going to be some it looks like there's going to be some it looks like there's going to be some big decisions we need to make like we big decisions we need to make like we big decisions we need to make like we have an open staff position or income have an open staff position or income have an open staff position or income has dropped precipitously or it's has dropped precipitously or it's has dropped precipitously or it's increased precipitously.

increased precipitously. increased precipitously. Uh, I'll try to kind of squint ahead the Uh, I'll try to kind of squint ahead the Uh, I'll try to kind of squint ahead the next 18 months and just give the elders next 18 months and just give the elders next 18 months and just give the elders a sense of, hey, I think we could a sense of, hey, I think we could a sense of, hey, I think we could probably go in, you know, direction A, probably go in, you know, direction A, probably go in, you know, direction A, B, or C. Let's have a conversation now B, or C. Let's have a conversation now B, or C. Let's have a conversation now before we get in the budget process before we get in the budget process before we get in the budget process um for that direction. Uh the budget um for that direction. Uh the budget um for that direction. Uh the budget process itself uh begins in March. process itself uh begins in March. process itself uh begins in March. Uh we have Uh we have Uh we have um a compensation committee that's um a compensation committee that's um a compensation committee that's composed of elders and one deacon uh who composed of elders and one deacon uh who composed of elders and one deacon uh who think through the half of our budget think through the half of our budget think through the half of our budget that's going to go to compensation. that's going to go to compensation. that's going to go to compensation. Um, and uh, we pay per policy as a Um, and uh, we pay per policy as a Um, and uh, we pay per policy as a church. We're we're not trying to church. We're we're not trying to church. We're we're not trying to evaluate performance and and put a value evaluate performance and and put a value evaluate performance and and put a value on it financially. I think that that can on it financially. I think that that can on it financially. I think that that can get you into trouble as a church. We're get you into trouble as a church. We're get you into trouble as a church. We're just paying people based on the policy just paying people based on the policy just paying people based on the policy we have, but we every year need to tweak we have, but we every year need to tweak we have, but we every year need to tweak that policy a bit. We have um, another that policy a bit. We have um, another that policy a bit. We have um, another committee of elders, the outreach committee of elders, the outreach committee of elders, the outreach committee, who put together a rough committee, who put together a rough committee, who put together a rough draft for the roughly onethird of the draft for the roughly onethird of the draft for the roughly onethird of the budget we're going to give away to budget we're going to give away to budget we're going to give away to missions and church planting and pastor missions and church planting and pastor missions and church planting and pastor training. And then our deacons submit training. And then our deacons submit training. And then our deacons submit all their budget requests. That's about all their budget requests. That's about all their budget requests. That's about 5% of our budget. Uh the deacons uh tend 5% of our budget. Uh the deacons uh tend 5% of our budget. Uh the deacons uh tend to focus on areas of ministry that are to focus on areas of ministry that are to focus on areas of ministry that are very human capital intensive but as very human capital intensive but as very human capital intensive but as result not not very financially result not not very financially result not not very financially intensive. Our office manager pulls all intensive. Our office manager pulls all intensive. Our office manager pulls all that together into kind of the first that together into kind of the first that together into kind of the first draft of the budget uh which is all the

draft of the budget uh which is all the draft of the budget uh which is all the spending requests. I work with our spending requests. I work with our spending requests. I work with our deacon of budget to put together our deacon of budget to put together our deacon of budget to put together our income estimate income estimate income estimate and uh then we have a another and uh then we have a another and uh then we have a another subcommittee of elders, our budget subcommittee of elders, our budget subcommittee of elders, our budget committee who do the first draft of how committee who do the first draft of how committee who do the first draft of how to balance the budget. If as is typical to balance the budget. If as is typical to balance the budget. If as is typical there's more spending requests than uh there's more spending requests than uh there's more spending requests than uh expected income. Uh the elders then meet expected income. Uh the elders then meet expected income. Uh the elders then meet and they pull all that together and put and they pull all that together and put and they pull all that together and put together a draft proposal for the together a draft proposal for the together a draft proposal for the congregation. It's a balanced budget uh congregation. It's a balanced budget uh congregation. It's a balanced budget uh where expected income equals expected where expected income equals expected where expected income equals expected expenses. uh we present that at a expenses. uh we present that at a expenses. uh we present that at a members meeting. We give the members meeting. We give the members meeting. We give the congregation a pretty detailed readout. congregation a pretty detailed readout. congregation a pretty detailed readout. So about a 23page document that details So about a 23page document that details So about a 23page document that details uh all the different line items that we uh all the different line items that we uh all the different line items that we anticipate in the budget. We don't give anticipate in the budget. We don't give anticipate in the budget. We don't give the congregation individual byindividual the congregation individual byindividual the congregation individual byindividual compensation figures. We do tell them if compensation figures. We do tell them if compensation figures. We do tell them if they feel in their own conscience they they feel in their own conscience they they feel in their own conscience they need to see that in order to vote on the need to see that in order to vote on the need to see that in order to vote on the budget, they're welcome to talk to the budget, they're welcome to talk to the budget, they're welcome to talk to the our deacon of budget to get that our deacon of budget to get that our deacon of budget to get that information. And then we give the information. And then we give the information. And then we give the congregation two months to think, pray.

congregation two months to think, pray. congregation two months to think, pray. Uh we have a special meeting on a Sunday Uh we have a special meeting on a Sunday Uh we have a special meeting on a Sunday afternoon when we answer questions from afternoon when we answer questions from afternoon when we answer questions from the congregation. Uh we often get the congregation. Uh we often get the congregation. Uh we often get suggestions from the congregation that suggestions from the congregation that suggestions from the congregation that the elders then incorporate into the the elders then incorporate into the the elders then incorporate into the budget. And then at our July members budget. And then at our July members budget. And then at our July members meeting, we vote on the budget. That's meeting, we vote on the budget. That's meeting, we vote on the budget. That's an up or down vote. uh there's no an up or down vote. uh there's no an up or down vote. uh there's no amendments allowed from the floor uh amendments allowed from the floor uh amendments allowed from the floor uh because a budget needs to be balanced because a budget needs to be balanced because a budget needs to be balanced and it's very challenging to have and it's very challenging to have and it's very challenging to have amendments that don't unbalance the amendments that don't unbalance the amendments that don't unbalance the budget in some way. It's a cohesive budget in some way. It's a cohesive budget in some way. It's a cohesive document. Uh we also don't allow document. Uh we also don't allow document. Uh we also don't allow conversation at that meeting. Uh not conversation at that meeting. Uh not conversation at that meeting. Uh not because we don't want feedback from the because we don't want feedback from the because we don't want feedback from the congregation, but we want it so much congregation, but we want it so much congregation, but we want it so much that we had a dedicated meeting a month that we had a dedicated meeting a month that we had a dedicated meeting a month earlier to collect all that feedback. Um earlier to collect all that feedback. Um earlier to collect all that feedback. Um and uh there's just not enough time for and uh there's just not enough time for and uh there's just not enough time for the congregation to make suggestions at the congregation to make suggestions at the congregation to make suggestions at that final meeting and the elders to act that final meeting and the elders to act that final meeting and the elders to act on them, which is why by the time it on them, which is why by the time it on them, which is why by the time it gets to that last meeting, it's just an gets to that last meeting, it's just an gets to that last meeting, it's just an up or down vote. Uh we adopt the budget up or down vote. Uh we adopt the budget up or down vote. Uh we adopt the budget and then uh a week after that July and then uh a week after that July and then uh a week after that July members meeting, it's August 1st, we we members meeting, it's August 1st, we we members meeting, it's August 1st, we we begin the budget year.

begin the budget year. begin the budget year. >> Yeah. And you've even said that >> Yeah. And you've even said that >> Yeah. And you've even said that something a pastor can do, even a church something a pastor can do, even a church something a pastor can do, even a church member can do is uh use the church member can do is uh use the church member can do is uh use the church budget as a prayer guide in their life, budget as a prayer guide in their life, budget as a prayer guide in their life, which is something I certainly had never which is something I certainly had never which is something I certainly had never thought about before, but uh you know, thought about before, but uh you know, thought about before, but uh you know, one maybe one day a week pray through a one maybe one day a week pray through a one maybe one day a week pray through a different line item or category of the different line item or category of the different line item or category of the budget and ask God to accomplish the budget and ask God to accomplish the budget and ask God to accomplish the gospel ambitions that stand behind the gospel ambitions that stand behind the gospel ambitions that stand behind the money. Jamie, one one other question money. Jamie, one one other question money. Jamie, one one other question along these lines is just how what along these lines is just how what along these lines is just how what recommendation would you give to recommendation would you give to recommendation would you give to churches? Understanding churches are in churches? Understanding churches are in churches? Understanding churches are in very different contexts and scenarios, very different contexts and scenarios, very different contexts and scenarios, but what are some just basic guidelines but what are some just basic guidelines but what are some just basic guidelines for how to project giving? That can feel for how to project giving? That can feel for how to project giving? That can feel really daunting like you're just trying really daunting like you're just trying really daunting like you're just trying to prognosticate. Sometimes maybe it can to prognosticate. Sometimes maybe it can to prognosticate. Sometimes maybe it can feel presumptuous uh spiritually feel presumptuous uh spiritually feel presumptuous uh spiritually presumptuous. So what what would you say presumptuous. So what what would you say presumptuous. So what what would you say to pastors about how to think through to pastors about how to think through to pastors about how to think through projecting a budget? Uh top line, projecting a budget? Uh top line, projecting a budget? Uh top line, >> you should base your budget on what you >> you should base your budget on what you >> you should base your budget on what you think the congregation will give, not think the congregation will give, not think the congregation will give, not what they should give.

what they should give. what they should give. And uh very often I think the temptation And uh very often I think the temptation And uh very often I think the temptation is to say, I don't think my members are is to say, I don't think my members are is to say, I don't think my members are giving faithfully. Let's give them a giving faithfully. Let's give them a giving faithfully. Let's give them a really aggressive budget and let's hope really aggressive budget and let's hope really aggressive budget and let's hope that that sort of motivates that that sort of motivates that that sort of motivates faithfulness. Uh maybe that happens faithfulness. Uh maybe that happens faithfulness. Uh maybe that happens every once in a while. I rarely find every once in a while. I rarely find every once in a while. I rarely find that an engineered budget crisis that an engineered budget crisis that an engineered budget crisis motivates real biblical faithfulness motivates real biblical faithfulness motivates real biblical faithfulness >> is [laughter] what's going to happen, >> is [laughter] what's going to happen, >> is [laughter] what's going to happen, right? You you're you're at the end of right? You you're you're at the end of right? You you're you're at the end of the year, you know, you're 20% short. the year, you know, you're 20% short. the year, you know, you're 20% short. You go to the cart say, "Ah, we're 20% You go to the cart say, "Ah, we're 20% You go to the cart say, "Ah, we're 20% short." Half of them are thinking, short." Half of them are thinking, short." Half of them are thinking, "Well, this is kind of your fault "Well, this is kind of your fault "Well, this is kind of your fault because we all knew we weren't going to because we all knew we weren't going to because we all knew we weren't going to be able to do this to begin with." And be able to do this to begin with." And be able to do this to begin with." And uh those who do reach down deep to give uh those who do reach down deep to give uh those who do reach down deep to give more are probably the people who are more are probably the people who are more are probably the people who are giving faithful to begin with. Uh I giving faithful to begin with. Uh I giving faithful to begin with. Uh I don't think you're going to find that don't think you're going to find that don't think you're going to find that that kind of crisis is going to help that kind of crisis is going to help that kind of crisis is going to help those who have been faithless to become those who have been faithless to become those who have been faithless to become faithful. Uh which is what you want. You faithful. Uh which is what you want. You faithful. Uh which is what you want. You want you want to focus on faithfulness. want you want to focus on faithfulness. want you want to focus on faithfulness. Uh you know whenever I talk about the Uh you know whenever I talk about the Uh you know whenever I talk about the budget, one thing I have in the back of budget, one thing I have in the back of budget, one thing I have in the back of my mind in addition to Philippians 4 is my mind in addition to Philippians 4 is my mind in addition to Philippians 4 is the final conversation my members have the final conversation my members have the final conversation my members have with Jesus someday when they give with Jesus someday when they give with Jesus someday when they give account for all that he's entrusted to account for all that he's entrusted to account for all that he's entrusted to them, finances included. And I them, finances included. And I them, finances included. And I desperately want them to be very desperately want them to be very desperately want them to be very thankful on that last day for every thankful on that last day for every thankful on that last day for every dollar they invested in our church dollar they invested in our church dollar they invested in our church budget. That's my focus. I want them to budget. That's my focus. I want them to budget. That's my focus. I want them to be faithful.

be faithful. be faithful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, as I think about the top line, you >> So, as I think about the top line, you >> So, as I think about the top line, you know, I may have an immature know, I may have an immature know, I may have an immature congregation. Okay. Well, we're going to congregation. Okay. Well, we're going to congregation. Okay. Well, we're going to have an immature top line. That's okay. have an immature top line. That's okay. have an immature top line. That's okay. Uh at least we got to start somewhere. Uh at least we got to start somewhere. Uh at least we got to start somewhere. The second thing is I've most churches The second thing is I've most churches The second thing is I've most churches are not big enough to have much a very are not big enough to have much a very are not big enough to have much a very you know complicated statistical model. you know complicated statistical model. you know complicated statistical model. >> You're going to have a pretty simple >> You're going to have a pretty simple >> You're going to have a pretty simple model like you know how many members are model like you know how many members are model like you know how many members are we increase by this coming year and we increase by this coming year and we increase by this coming year and what's going to change with giving per what's going to change with giving per what's going to change with giving per member which may be you know expected member which may be you know expected member which may be you know expected inflation wage growth in your area. inflation wage growth in your area. inflation wage growth in your area. uh if you're going to, you know, send uh if you're going to, you know, send uh if you're going to, you know, send out a bunch of people for a church out a bunch of people for a church out a bunch of people for a church plant, you want to include that. But plant, you want to include that. But plant, you want to include that. But it's it's it's not rocket science in it's it's it's not rocket science in it's it's it's not rocket science in part because you just don't have that part because you just don't have that part because you just don't have that much complexity to work with. And some much complexity to work with. And some much complexity to work with. And some churches, they're going to be able to churches, they're going to be able to churches, they're going to be able to forecast with some pretty good forecast with some pretty good forecast with some pretty good specificity. Other churches, it's going specificity. Other churches, it's going specificity. Other churches, it's going to be kind of plus or minus 20%, we see to be kind of plus or minus 20%, we see to be kind of plus or minus 20%, we see where we go. depending on how regular where we go. depending on how regular where we go. depending on how regular your church's giving is, that will help your church's giving is, that will help your church's giving is, that will help you understand, say, what size reserve you understand, say, what size reserve you understand, say, what size reserve fund you want to have.

fund you want to have. fund you want to have. >> Um, and uh, you know, you're you're >> Um, and uh, you know, you're you're >> Um, and uh, you know, you're you're going to going to going to budget expenses in part based on how budget expenses in part based on how budget expenses in part based on how certain your income estimate is. And so certain your income estimate is. And so certain your income estimate is. And so if you have a very unclear income if you have a very unclear income if you have a very unclear income estimate, that's going to affect uh what estimate, that's going to affect uh what estimate, that's going to affect uh what you do with your expenses at least in you do with your expenses at least in you do with your expenses at least in terms of timing them through the year so terms of timing them through the year so terms of timing them through the year so that you can phase expenses in as the that you can phase expenses in as the that you can phase expenses in as the topline becomes more clear. topline becomes more clear. topline becomes more clear. >> Yeah. And also on the topic of staff >> Yeah. And also on the topic of staff >> Yeah. And also on the topic of staff salaries um specifically for pastoral salaries um specifically for pastoral salaries um specifically for pastoral staff, staff, staff, >> any general words of wisdom there um in >> any general words of wisdom there um in >> any general words of wisdom there um in thinking through a compensation package thinking through a compensation package thinking through a compensation package um retirement benefits? I mean, these um retirement benefits? I mean, these um retirement benefits? I mean, these are things every church has to think are things every church has to think are things every church has to think about. about. about. >> Yeah. Well, I think that the most >> Yeah. Well, I think that the most >> Yeah. Well, I think that the most important thing is that uh there's a few important thing is that uh there's a few important thing is that uh there's a few passages in the New Testament that talk passages in the New Testament that talk passages in the New Testament that talk about pastoral compensation. Uh you about pastoral compensation. Uh you about pastoral compensation. Uh you know, 1 Timothy 5, Galatians 6, uh Titus know, 1 Timothy 5, Galatians 6, uh Titus know, 1 Timothy 5, Galatians 6, uh Titus 3. Um and in every single time it brings 3. Um and in every single time it brings 3. Um and in every single time it brings up the topic, it emphasizes generosity up the topic, it emphasizes generosity up the topic, it emphasizes generosity in some way. You know, Galatians 6, in some way. You know, Galatians 6, in some way. You know, Galatians 6, share all good things with those who share all good things with those who share all good things with those who teach you. uh 1 Timothy 5, uh give them teach you. uh 1 Timothy 5, uh give them teach you. uh 1 Timothy 5, uh give them double honor. Uh Titus 3, make sure that double honor. Uh Titus 3, make sure that double honor. Uh Titus 3, make sure that they lack nothing. And so obviously they lack nothing. And so obviously they lack nothing. And so obviously generosity is in the eye of the generosity is in the eye of the generosity is in the eye of the beholder. You know, many churches have beholder. You know, many churches have beholder. You know, many churches have told me they want to be generous. I told me they want to be generous. I told me they want to be generous. I talked to their pastor and he's like, I talked to their pastor and he's like, I talked to their pastor and he's like, I can barely survive. Uh so that's not can barely survive. Uh so that's not can barely survive. Uh so that's not going to solve your answer your going to solve your answer your going to solve your answer your question, but an eye to be generous is

question, but an eye to be generous is question, but an eye to be generous is biblical and I think it's useful. I find biblical and I think it's useful. I find biblical and I think it's useful. I find that it's useful to find what that it's useful to find what that it's useful to find what like-minded churches around you are like-minded churches around you are like-minded churches around you are paying. Don't get the, you know, the the paying. Don't get the, you know, the the paying. Don't get the, you know, the the data for every church in your area. data for every church in your area. data for every church in your area. Otherwise, you're like lemmings all Otherwise, you're like lemmings all Otherwise, you're like lemmings all going off the cliff together. going off the cliff together. going off the cliff together. >> But churches that you trust, they they >> But churches that you trust, they they >> But churches that you trust, they they can be useful guides. Figure out what can be useful guides. Figure out what can be useful guides. Figure out what your pastor needs. Uh some pastors cost your pastor needs. Uh some pastors cost your pastor needs. Uh some pastors cost more than others, and churches need to more than others, and churches need to more than others, and churches need to recognize that. You know, if you hired a recognize that. You know, if you hired a recognize that. You know, if you hired a pastor whose in-laws are in Australia, pastor whose in-laws are in Australia, pastor whose in-laws are in Australia, uh well, guess what? he's probably going uh well, guess what? he's probably going uh well, guess what? he's probably going to have to fly to Australia every year to have to fly to Australia every year to have to fly to Australia every year or two and you knew that before you or two and you knew that before you or two and you knew that before you hired him. So, you should pay him hired him. So, you should pay him hired him. So, you should pay him accordingly. Uh don't be upset that your accordingly. Uh don't be upset that your accordingly. Uh don't be upset that your pastor costs more than the last guy. pastor costs more than the last guy. pastor costs more than the last guy. Every guy is different. U and then I Every guy is different. U and then I Every guy is different. U and then I think the most useful benchmark is what think the most useful benchmark is what think the most useful benchmark is what does the local government pay their does the local government pay their does the local government pay their civil servants like a high school civil servants like a high school civil servants like a high school principal, a uh a college professor, a principal, a uh a college professor, a principal, a uh a college professor, a police chief, someone who has similar police chief, someone who has similar police chief, someone who has similar managerial responsibilities, similar managerial responsibilities, similar managerial responsibilities, similar education requirements for a pastor.

education requirements for a pastor. education requirements for a pastor. Nobody goes to be a pastor to get rich. Nobody goes to be a pastor to get rich. Nobody goes to be a pastor to get rich. At least they shouldn't. Uh first At least they shouldn't. Uh first At least they shouldn't. Uh first Timothy's clear on that. Timothy's clear on that. Timothy's clear on that. >> Uh but at the same time, you don't want >> Uh but at the same time, you don't want >> Uh but at the same time, you don't want your pastor to have to quit for lack of your pastor to have to quit for lack of your pastor to have to quit for lack of money. Uh, that's what Titus 3 is about. money. Uh, that's what Titus 3 is about. money. Uh, that's what Titus 3 is about. 3:13. And in the same way, you shouldn't 3:13. And in the same way, you shouldn't 3:13. And in the same way, you shouldn't go to work for your local government go to work for your local government go to work for your local government because you want to get wealthy. That because you want to get wealthy. That because you want to get wealthy. That probably doesn't make sense. But your probably doesn't make sense. But your probably doesn't make sense. But your local government doesn't want to lose local government doesn't want to lose local government doesn't want to lose the high school principal after 5 years the high school principal after 5 years the high school principal after 5 years because he can't feed his family. They because he can't feed his family. They because he can't feed his family. They they want a sustainable salary in your they want a sustainable salary in your they want a sustainable salary in your area. And so, I do think that's a area. And so, I do think that's a area. And so, I do think that's a particularly useful benchmark for a particularly useful benchmark for a particularly useful benchmark for a church as they think about their own church as they think about their own church as they think about their own pastor. pastor. pastor. >> Yeah. And I've heard you point out um >> Yeah. And I've heard you point out um >> Yeah. And I've heard you point out um that church member, it's actually what that church member, it's actually what that church member, it's actually what good is it to you if your pastor is good is it to you if your pastor is good is it to you if your pastor is distracted uh because of financial distracted uh because of financial distracted uh because of financial stress. And and so um I think you've stress. And and so um I think you've stress. And and so um I think you've said something like we should pay a said something like we should pay a said something like we should pay a pastor uh for what the work is worth, pastor uh for what the work is worth, pastor uh for what the work is worth, not what we think he needs. So there not what we think he needs. So there not what we think he needs. So there there's a level of what he actually there's a level of what he actually there's a level of what he actually needs. needs. needs. >> Yeah. Which we should take into account.

>> Yeah. Which we should take into account. >> Yeah. Which we should take into account. >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that >> Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And that that just comes from Paul's discussion of just comes from Paul's discussion of just comes from Paul's discussion of pastoral pay in 1 Timothy 5 where he he pastoral pay in 1 Timothy 5 where he he pastoral pay in 1 Timothy 5 where he he justifies pay in Jesus statement. The justifies pay in Jesus statement. The justifies pay in Jesus statement. The worker is worthy of his wages. And I worker is worthy of his wages. And I worker is worthy of his wages. And I just think it's it's useful to point out just think it's it's useful to point out just think it's it's useful to point out Paul is is justifying payment not based Paul is is justifying payment not based Paul is is justifying payment not based on the man's need but based on the value on the man's need but based on the value on the man's need but based on the value of his work. Uh and that's a paradigm of his work. Uh and that's a paradigm of his work. Uh and that's a paradigm shift for a lot of churches that really shift for a lot of churches that really shift for a lot of churches that really honestly are thinking how little can I honestly are thinking how little can I honestly are thinking how little can I get away with? How what does he need? get away with? How what does he need? get away with? How what does he need? It's like, well, that's not how Jesus It's like, well, that's not how Jesus It's like, well, that's not how Jesus thought about it, and that's not how thought about it, and that's not how thought about it, and that's not how Paul roots a need for compensation. Paul roots a need for compensation. Paul roots a need for compensation. >> Yeah. As we land the plane on this >> Yeah. As we land the plane on this >> Yeah. As we land the plane on this episode, Lig and Jamie, I want you each episode, Lig and Jamie, I want you each episode, Lig and Jamie, I want you each to just share any sort of final thought to just share any sort of final thought to just share any sort of final thought on the topic of individual giving or on the topic of individual giving or on the topic of individual giving or church budgeting. Anything else you want church budgeting. Anything else you want church budgeting. Anything else you want to add, League? I think just to push to add, League? I think just to push to add, League? I think just to push folks back to Jaime's book and to think folks back to Jaime's book and to think folks back to Jaime's book and to think about New Testament emphasis on giving. about New Testament emphasis on giving. about New Testament emphasis on giving. So Jesus Jesus exes us to expect for So Jesus Jesus exes us to expect for So Jesus Jesus exes us to expect for giving to be a part of our disciplehip.

giving to be a part of our disciplehip. giving to be a part of our disciplehip. You know he'll say in Matthew 6:2 not if You know he'll say in Matthew 6:2 not if You know he'll say in Matthew 6:2 not if you give but when you give. So he he you give but when you give. So he he you give but when you give. So he he expects this to be a part of being a expects this to be a part of being a expects this to be a part of being a Christian. And it's our privilege as Christian. And it's our privilege as Christian. And it's our privilege as pastors to help people feel that not as pastors to help people feel that not as pastors to help people feel that not as some sort of tool of manipulation or some sort of tool of manipulation or some sort of tool of manipulation or guilt but as a joyful part of guilt but as a joyful part of guilt but as a joyful part of disciplehip. We we get to do this. This disciplehip. We we get to do this. This disciplehip. We we get to do this. This is a wonderful thing to do. And so I is a wonderful thing to do. And so I is a wonderful thing to do. And so I think pressing into some of those New think pressing into some of those New think pressing into some of those New Testament texts, some of which we've Testament texts, some of which we've Testament texts, some of which we've talked about, some of which we haven't, talked about, some of which we haven't, talked about, some of which we haven't, uh, is is really, really good. And when uh, is is really, really good. And when uh, is is really, really good. And when you're doing expositional preaching, you're doing expositional preaching, you're doing expositional preaching, they are going to come up. When you're they are going to come up. When you're they are going to come up. When you're preaching through Matthew, it's going to preaching through Matthew, it's going to preaching through Matthew, it's going to come up. When you're preaching through come up. When you're preaching through come up. When you're preaching through First Corinthians, it's going to come First Corinthians, it's going to come First Corinthians, it's going to come up. When you're when you're preaching up. When you're when you're preaching up. When you're when you're preaching through Philippians, it's going to come through Philippians, it's going to come through Philippians, it's going to come up. It's just sprinkled throughout the up. It's just sprinkled throughout the up. It's just sprinkled throughout the New Testament, which lets you know that New Testament, which lets you know that New Testament, which lets you know that it was a normal part of life to early it was a normal part of life to early it was a normal part of life to early Christians. and to those who were Christians. and to those who were Christians. and to those who were discipling uh early Christians. So I discipling uh early Christians. So I discipling uh early Christians. So I would just say as pastors get aware of would just say as pastors get aware of would just say as pastors get aware of used to into those texts and then let used to into those texts and then let used to into those texts and then let your teaching of your congregation flow your teaching of your congregation flow your teaching of your congregation flow out of those texts. Uh because that's out of those texts. Uh because that's out of those texts. Uh because that's just going to help you a lot when you just going to help you a lot when you just going to help you a lot when you have on the one hand people that haven't have on the one hand people that haven't have on the one hand people that haven't been taught at all and on the other hand been taught at all and on the other hand been taught at all and on the other hand people that are reacting to bad teaching people that are reacting to bad teaching people that are reacting to bad teaching on this and you're just able to come on this and you're just able to come on this and you're just able to come right out of the scriptures and say let right out of the scriptures and say let right out of the scriptures and say let me tell you what Jesus says. Let me tell me tell you what Jesus says. Let me tell me tell you what Jesus says. Let me tell you what Paul says. Let me tell you you what Paul says. Let me tell you you what Paul says. Let me tell you what, you know that that's just going to what, you know that that's just going to what, you know that that's just going to help people when they're thinking help people when they're thinking help people when they're thinking through this. That's good. What would through this. That's good. What would through this. That's good. What would what would you add uh by way of a final

what would you add uh by way of a final what would you add uh by way of a final comment, Jimmy? comment, Jimmy? comment, Jimmy? >> Let me add two things. The first is uh >> Let me add two things. The first is uh >> Let me add two things. The first is uh competence will help your members be competence will help your members be competence will help your members be faithful. So you as a pastor may not faithful. So you as a pastor may not faithful. So you as a pastor may not have an administrative bone in your have an administrative bone in your have an administrative bone in your body, right? You've never been on time body, right? You've never been on time body, right? You've never been on time for an appointment in your life. And uh for an appointment in your life. And uh for an appointment in your life. And uh you're you're you're you are feeling like I'm encouraging you you are feeling like I'm encouraging you you are feeling like I'm encouraging you to be responsible for the church budget. to be responsible for the church budget. to be responsible for the church budget. I am. But get good help. Uh get good I am. But get good help. Uh get good I am. But get good help. Uh get good help in the congregation. If there are help in the congregation. If there are help in the congregation. If there are errors in your financial report, that's errors in your financial report, that's errors in your financial report, that's not helping people be faithful. If uh not helping people be faithful. If uh not helping people be faithful. If uh you can't answer simple questions about you can't answer simple questions about you can't answer simple questions about the financial state of the church or the financial state of the church or the financial state of the church or whoever it is who's doing the report whoever it is who's doing the report whoever it is who's doing the report can't answer those, it's not helping the can't answer those, it's not helping the can't answer those, it's not helping the faithfulness of the church. Competence faithfulness of the church. Competence faithfulness of the church. Competence helps faithfulness. helps faithfulness. helps faithfulness. Um and maybe that the last thing to to Um and maybe that the last thing to to Um and maybe that the last thing to to just point out is that uh the budget is just point out is that uh the budget is just point out is that uh the budget is a good teaching opportunity. So as a good teaching opportunity. So as a good teaching opportunity. So as league said uh simply preaching through league said uh simply preaching through league said uh simply preaching through the New Testament and the Old Testament the New Testament and the Old Testament the New Testament and the Old Testament is going to give you lots of is going to give you lots of is going to give you lots of opportunities to talk about money opportunities to talk about money opportunities to talk about money because it's all over the scriptures. because it's all over the scriptures. because it's all over the scriptures. But in addition, don't waste those But in addition, don't waste those But in addition, don't waste those regular budget reports. Uh six times a regular budget reports. Uh six times a regular budget reports. Uh six times a year, we let the church know the state year, we let the church know the state year, we let the church know the state of the financial uh condition of the of the financial uh condition of the of the financial uh condition of the church. And uh those are wonderful church. And uh those are wonderful church. And uh those are wonderful pastoral opportunities if we are behind pastoral opportunities if we are behind pastoral opportunities if we are behind our budget. Well, it's a great way for our budget. Well, it's a great way for our budget. Well, it's a great way for me to model what it looks like to trust me to model what it looks like to trust me to model what it looks like to trust the Lord and to be busy trying to think the Lord and to be busy trying to think the Lord and to be busy trying to think through what we can do about that. If we through what we can do about that. If we through what we can do about that. If we are ahead, it's a great opportunity for are ahead, it's a great opportunity for are ahead, it's a great opportunity for me to help the congregation see this me to help the congregation see this me to help the congregation see this does not mean we've succeeded.

does not mean we've succeeded. does not mean we've succeeded. >> Uh you can be faithless and meet the >> Uh you can be faithless and meet the >> Uh you can be faithless and meet the budget all at the same time. budget all at the same time. budget all at the same time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And so almost every you know the the >> And so almost every you know the the >> And so almost every you know the the last meeting we had the markets had just last meeting we had the markets had just last meeting we had the markets had just dipped. And I just I I warned the dipped. And I just I I warned the dipped. And I just I I warned the congregations I've seen this again and congregations I've seen this again and congregations I've seen this again and again that our giving is more tied to again that our giving is more tied to again that our giving is more tied to the stock market than it is to our the stock market than it is to our the stock market than it is to our employment. even though we're the kind employment. even though we're the kind employment. even though we're the kind of congregation where people are giving of congregation where people are giving of congregation where people are giving not based on their stock returns but not based on their stock returns but not based on their stock returns but based on their uh their income and based on their uh their income and based on their uh their income and that's because we are susceptible to that's because we are susceptible to that's because we are susceptible to fear. So let's be careful as a fear. So let's be careful as a fear. So let's be careful as a congregation not to let the fear in the congregation not to let the fear in the congregation not to let the fear in the economy around us affect our economy around us affect our economy around us affect our faithfulness as Christians. I think you faithfulness as Christians. I think you faithfulness as Christians. I think you will find pretty much every time you will find pretty much every time you will find pretty much every time you talk about money with the church is a talk about money with the church is a talk about money with the church is a pastoral opportunity. Don't hand that to pastoral opportunity. Don't hand that to pastoral opportunity. Don't hand that to someone who's just going to give them someone who's just going to give them someone who's just going to give them the numbers. uh make sure that as a the numbers. uh make sure that as a the numbers. uh make sure that as a pastor or one of your elders, one of pastor or one of your elders, one of pastor or one of your elders, one of your pastors sees that as an opportunity your pastors sees that as an opportunity your pastors sees that as an opportunity to teach and model what it looks like to to teach and model what it looks like to to teach and model what it looks like to be in love with Jesus in a way that be in love with Jesus in a way that be in love with Jesus in a way that shows up in your finances.

shows up in your finances. shows up in your finances. >> Which is to say, as Christians, we ought >> Which is to say, as Christians, we ought >> Which is to say, as Christians, we ought to be giving in a way that doesn't make to be giving in a way that doesn't make to be giving in a way that doesn't make sense to the world. sense to the world. sense to the world. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Absolutely. Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, a as as we conclude, I I >> Yeah. Well, a as as we conclude, I I >> Yeah. Well, a as as we conclude, I I just want to underscore what what we've just want to underscore what what we've just want to underscore what what we've said from the very beginning of this said from the very beginning of this said from the very beginning of this episode that giving sacrificially, it episode that giving sacrificially, it episode that giving sacrificially, it doesn't just reflect something about you doesn't just reflect something about you doesn't just reflect something about you and about your people, it also does and about your people, it also does and about your people, it also does something to you. Uh it it forms you and something to you. Uh it it forms you and something to you. Uh it it forms you and it shapes you because when we give, when it shapes you because when we give, when it shapes you because when we give, when we encourage our people to give, then we encourage our people to give, then we encourage our people to give, then it's it's a it's a declaration of it's it's a it's a declaration of it's it's a it's a declaration of independence from money's strangle hold independence from money's strangle hold independence from money's strangle hold on our hearts. So rather than money on our hearts. So rather than money on our hearts. So rather than money being this inflated thing in our lives, being this inflated thing in our lives, being this inflated thing in our lives, right, a a means of social status or a right, a a means of social status or a right, a a means of social status or a source of security or or or a symbol of source of security or or or a symbol of source of security or or or a symbol of um being some high and mighty person, um being some high and mighty person, um being some high and mighty person, money just becomes money. Uh and and of money just becomes money. Uh and and of money just becomes money. Uh and and of course, God doesn't need our money, but course, God doesn't need our money, but course, God doesn't need our money, but he loves us. And so he challenges us to he loves us. And so he challenges us to he loves us. And so he challenges us to give, not just to get the money out of give, not just to get the money out of give, not just to get the money out of our wallets, but ultimately to get the our wallets, but ultimately to get the our wallets, but ultimately to get the idols out of our hearts. um and enable idols out of our hearts. um and enable idols out of our hearts. um and enable us to live single-minded in our devotion us to live single-minded in our devotion us to live single-minded in our devotion to him. I want to just again commend to him. I want to just again commend to him. I want to just again commend Jaime's writing specifically on this Jaime's writing specifically on this Jaime's writing specifically on this topic, his booklet, Why Should I Give to topic, his booklet, Why Should I Give to topic, his booklet, Why Should I Give to My Church, and his longer book, My Church, and his longer book, My Church, and his longer book, Budgeting for a Healthy Church. Jamie, Budgeting for a Healthy Church. Jamie, Budgeting for a Healthy Church. Jamie, thanks for being with us today.

thanks for being with us today. thanks for being with us today. >> Oh, it's been a delight. Thank you. >> Oh, it's been a delight. Thank you. >> Oh, it's been a delight. Thank you. >> Thanks for tuning in everyone to The >> Thanks for tuning in everyone to The >> Thanks for tuning in everyone to The Everyday Pastor. [music] We hope it's Everyday Pastor. [music] We hope it's Everyday Pastor. [music] We hope it's been encouraging to you. Uh, please take been encouraging to you. Uh, please take been encouraging to you. Uh, please take a moment to leave a rating or review so a moment to leave a rating or review so a moment to leave a rating or review so we can help other pastors find [music] we can help other pastors find [music] we can help other pastors find [music] fresh joy in the work of ministry.