AI and Art: What is Creativity For? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 4]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of AI. AI. AI. I'm Christopher Watkin. I'm Christopher Watkin. I'm Christopher Watkin. In each episode, we're unpacking three In each episode, we're unpacking three In each episode, we're unpacking three crucial questions. What can AI do for crucial questions. What can AI do for crucial questions. What can AI do for us? uh what is AI doing to us and what us? uh what is AI doing to us and what us? uh what is AI doing to us and what is it showing us about who we really is it showing us about who we really is it showing us about who we really are? And to explore these questions are? And to explore these questions are? And to explore these questions today, I'm delighted to be joined by today, I'm delighted to be joined by today, I'm delighted to be joined by Brett McCracken, senior editor at the Brett McCracken, senior editor at the Brett McCracken, senior editor at the Gospel Coalition and author and editor Gospel Coalition and author and editor Gospel Coalition and author and editor of multiple books about faith, culture, of multiple books about faith, culture, of multiple books about faith, culture, media, and the church. So Brett, welcome media, and the church. So Brett, welcome media, and the church. So Brett, welcome to the podcast. to the podcast. to the podcast. >> Thanks so much, Chris. Great to be here. >> Thanks so much, Chris. Great to be here. >> Thanks so much, Chris. Great to be here. I'm excited for this conversation. I'm excited for this conversation. I'm excited for this conversation. >> So am I. I bet. And I would like to >> So am I. I bet. And I would like to >> So am I. I bet. And I would like to plunge you right into the midst of the plunge you right into the midst of the plunge you right into the midst of the AI conundrum at the beginning. I' I'd AI conundrum at the beginning. I' I'd AI conundrum at the beginning. I' I'd love you to imagine with me the love you to imagine with me the love you to imagine with me the following scenario.

following scenario. following scenario. Imagine Sarah. Sarah's a 17year-old uh Imagine Sarah. Sarah's a 17year-old uh Imagine Sarah. Sarah's a 17year-old uh who goes to your church. She loves who goes to your church. She loves who goes to your church. She loves drawing. Art is her passion and she drawing. Art is her passion and she drawing. Art is her passion and she dreams of being an illustrator when she dreams of being an illustrator when she dreams of being an illustrator when she grows up. grows up. grows up. And then she discovers AI image And then she discovers AI image And then she discovers AI image generation. generation. generation. She can type in a few words. Uh and in She can type in a few words. Uh and in She can type in a few words. Uh and in second she gets an image far more second she gets an image far more second she gets an image far more sophisticated and accomplished than sophisticated and accomplished than sophisticated and accomplished than anything that she can currently draw. anything that she can currently draw. anything that she can currently draw. And she can get it in whatever artistic And she can get it in whatever artistic And she can get it in whatever artistic style she chooses. style she chooses. style she chooses. She notices that her Instagram starts to She notices that her Instagram starts to She notices that her Instagram starts to blow up with AI generated Bible verse blow up with AI generated Bible verse blow up with AI generated Bible verse out and she starts wondering out and she starts wondering out and she starts wondering why am I going to spend years learning why am I going to spend years learning why am I going to spend years learning anatomy and color and technique when anatomy and color and technique when anatomy and color and technique when already AI is better than I am and it's already AI is better than I am and it's already AI is better than I am and it's only going to get better in the future. only going to get better in the future. only going to get better in the future. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And then she comes to you after the >> And then she comes to you after the >> And then she comes to you after the service one Sunday and she says, "You service one Sunday and she says, "You service one Sunday and she says, "You know, Brett, you've written on these know, Brett, you've written on these know, Brett, you've written on these things. Uh, what is the point of me things. Uh, what is the point of me things. Uh, what is the point of me continuing to draw and why would I ever continuing to draw and why would I ever continuing to draw and why would I ever think of going to college to study art?

think of going to college to study art? think of going to college to study art? >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say >> Yeah, I mean, first of all, I would say to her, Sarah, I get it. Um, I've had to her, Sarah, I get it. Um, I've had to her, Sarah, I get it. Um, I've had these same kind of existential um, these same kind of existential um, these same kind of existential um, crisis moments myself as a writer, as crisis moments myself as a writer, as crisis moments myself as a writer, as someone who's a creator, and I think someone who's a creator, and I think someone who's a creator, and I think anyone in anyone in the creative fields anyone in anyone in the creative fields anyone in anyone in the creative fields of any kind is having these kind of of any kind is having these kind of of any kind is having these kind of wakeup call moments. thinking about AI wakeup call moments. thinking about AI wakeup call moments. thinking about AI and experimenting with it and seeing how and experimenting with it and seeing how and experimenting with it and seeing how it can, you know, conjure up pretty good it can, you know, conjure up pretty good it can, you know, conjure up pretty good quality stuff already and we're in the quality stuff already and we're in the quality stuff already and we're in the early stages still. So, I would I would early stages still. So, I would I would early stages still. So, I would I would first of all just, you know, express first of all just, you know, express first of all just, you know, express solidarity with her. Um, but then I solidarity with her. Um, but then I solidarity with her. Um, but then I would say, you know, it's not all about would say, you know, it's not all about would say, you know, it's not all about the end result when it comes to creation the end result when it comes to creation the end result when it comes to creation and the arts. It's not even mostly about and the arts. It's not even mostly about and the arts. It's not even mostly about the end result. I would argue it's about the end result. I would argue it's about the end result. I would argue it's about the process. Um I think we need to the process. Um I think we need to the process. Um I think we need to recover a robust theology of process. Um recover a robust theology of process. Um recover a robust theology of process. Um what happens between kind of an input, what happens between kind of an input, what happens between kind of an input, the idea kind of a something that is the the idea kind of a something that is the the idea kind of a something that is the precipitating idea and the output, the precipitating idea and the output, the precipitating idea and the output, the eventual output process matters. AI can eventual output process matters. AI can eventual output process matters. AI can eliminate that. It can go from input to eliminate that. It can go from input to eliminate that. It can go from input to output instantly and that can kind of output instantly and that can kind of output instantly and that can kind of mess with our heads a little bit. But I mess with our heads a little bit. But I mess with our heads a little bit. But I think we need to recover the value of think we need to recover the value of think we need to recover the value of process and all the things that are process and all the things that are process and all the things that are valuable about it. Um, art is not just valuable about it. Um, art is not just valuable about it. Um, art is not just about the end product. It's about the about the end product. It's about the about the end product. It's about the process. Um, and I also would say art is process. Um, and I also would say art is process. Um, and I also would say art is not only about kind of pretty polish and

not only about kind of pretty polish and not only about kind of pretty polish and kind of a a kind of perfect pretty kind of a a kind of perfect pretty kind of a a kind of perfect pretty ornamental, you know, thing. It's about ornamental, you know, thing. It's about ornamental, you know, thing. It's about it's something personal. And the it's something personal. And the it's something personal. And the personal is often times messier. It's personal is often times messier. It's personal is often times messier. It's unpolished. Um, great art comes from a unpolished. Um, great art comes from a unpolished. Um, great art comes from a personal place and it it often is is personal place and it it often is is personal place and it it often is is expressed as a form of praise. I would I expressed as a form of praise. I would I expressed as a form of praise. I would I would argue um to be an artist is kind would argue um to be an artist is kind would argue um to be an artist is kind of to give expression to the direction of to give expression to the direction of to give expression to the direction of your loves and the object of your of your loves and the object of your of your loves and the object of your loves. And that's something AI can't loves. And that's something AI can't loves. And that's something AI can't really do. And so as an artist, Sarah, I really do. And so as an artist, Sarah, I really do. And so as an artist, Sarah, I would tell her, you know, retain those would tell her, you know, retain those would tell her, you know, retain those distinctly human things about that have distinctly human things about that have distinctly human things about that have always been true about art making, which always been true about art making, which always been true about art making, which is process is a big valuable part of it, is process is a big valuable part of it, is process is a big valuable part of it, not only for your a your eventual not only for your a your eventual not only for your a your eventual audience, but first and foremost for you audience, but first and foremost for you audience, but first and foremost for you and who you are becoming in the process and who you are becoming in the process and who you are becoming in the process of creating. And then the the praise of creating. And then the the praise of creating. And then the the praise element, the kind of um affective love element, the kind of um affective love element, the kind of um affective love element that is behind uh what you are element that is behind uh what you are element that is behind uh what you are creating and why you are creating it.

creating and why you are creating it. creating and why you are creating it. Those really matter. Um so I would just Those really matter. Um so I would just Those really matter. Um so I would just encourage her. Also um this is something encourage her. Also um this is something encourage her. Also um this is something that we can talk about later or debate a that we can talk about later or debate a that we can talk about later or debate a little bit, but I think that arguably AI little bit, but I think that arguably AI little bit, but I think that arguably AI is always going to depend on original is always going to depend on original is always going to depend on original human creation. um it it currently is human creation. um it it currently is human creation. um it it currently is only pulling from basically human ideas only pulling from basically human ideas only pulling from basically human ideas and human creation and synthesizing it. and human creation and synthesizing it. and human creation and synthesizing it. Um, and in the future, you know, if if Um, and in the future, you know, if if Um, and in the future, you know, if if if there's no new things being created, if there's no new things being created, if there's no new things being created, let's say, if everyone just starts using let's say, if everyone just starts using let's say, if everyone just starts using AI and throws in the towel on AI and throws in the towel on AI and throws in the towel on originality, eventually there's going to originality, eventually there's going to originality, eventually there's going to be diminishing returns in terms of what be diminishing returns in terms of what be diminishing returns in terms of what AI produces cuz it's relying on an ever AI produces cuz it's relying on an ever AI produces cuz it's relying on an ever smaller pool of uh human original human smaller pool of uh human original human smaller pool of uh human original human inputs. So for the Sarah of the world, I inputs. So for the Sarah of the world, I inputs. So for the Sarah of the world, I would just say maybe in the future you would just say maybe in the future you would just say maybe in the future you will have even greater value as a kind will have even greater value as a kind will have even greater value as a kind of you know original human um innovator of you know original human um innovator of you know original human um innovator artist who is giving AI that source artist who is giving AI that source artist who is giving AI that source material that it can actually you know material that it can actually you know material that it can actually you know create something with. Um but I think create something with. Um but I think create something with. Um but I think there's there's things we can debate there's there's things we can debate there's there's things we can debate about that as well. There's about that as well. There's about that as well. There's counterpoints to that. Um because in a counterpoints to that. Um because in a counterpoints to that. Um because in a sense you know even what we call sense you know even what we call sense you know even what we call original human ideas or original human original human ideas or original human original human ideas or original human creation is in a sense just remixing you creation is in a sense just remixing you creation is in a sense just remixing you know a variety of inputs that have come know a variety of inputs that have come know a variety of inputs that have come into that author or that artist's life.

into that author or that artist's life. into that author or that artist's life. Um so we in our most innovative moments Um so we in our most innovative moments Um so we in our most innovative moments are doing what AI is doing which is just are doing what AI is doing which is just are doing what AI is doing which is just synthesizing inputs. So is it really all synthesizing inputs. So is it really all synthesizing inputs. So is it really all that different? Um, so but those are a that different? Um, so but those are a that different? Um, so but those are a few things I would say just to encourage few things I would say just to encourage few things I would say just to encourage uh Sarah, but I get it for sure is this uh Sarah, but I get it for sure is this uh Sarah, but I get it for sure is this is a hard moment for artists and I is a hard moment for artists and I is a hard moment for artists and I interact a lot with artists and it's a interact a lot with artists and it's a interact a lot with artists and it's a big uh topic of conversation. big uh topic of conversation. big uh topic of conversation. >> Certainly is. You you have laid a a >> Certainly is. You you have laid a a >> Certainly is. You you have laid a a banquet before us in that answer. Um you banquet before us in that answer. Um you banquet before us in that answer. Um you you started off with with process. The you started off with with process. The you started off with with process. The process matters not just the product. Uh process matters not just the product. Uh process matters not just the product. Uh and then very helpfully uh and and then very helpfully uh and and then very helpfully uh and eliteratively you use you went to praise eliteratively you use you went to praise eliteratively you use you went to praise artist about praise. Can a can a machine artist about praise. Can a can a machine artist about praise. Can a can a machine do that? do that? do that? >> Uh and the third point um that AI can >> Uh and the third point um that AI can >> Uh and the third point um that AI can only build on what we've done. We we only build on what we've done. We we only build on what we've done. We we could perhaps label that parasitism. So could perhaps label that parasitism. So could perhaps label that parasitism. So we got process praise and parasitis. we got process praise and parasitis. we got process praise and parasitis. >> Oh, I like it. Yeah. >> Oh, I like it. Yeah. >> Oh, I like it. Yeah. >> Um and in a sense, we're going to spend >> Um and in a sense, we're going to spend >> Um and in a sense, we're going to spend the whole rest of this episode exploring the whole rest of this episode exploring the whole rest of this episode exploring those ideas that you've laid out. Um so those ideas that you've laid out. Um so those ideas that you've laid out. Um so thank you for putting that so crisply. thank you for putting that so crisply. thank you for putting that so crisply. Um, and and thank you as well for just Um, and and thank you as well for just Um, and and thank you as well for just acknowledging that that these are acknowledging that that these are acknowledging that that these are difficult times for people in the difficult times for people in the difficult times for people in the creative industries that there is a creative industries that there is a creative industries that there is a sense and and I hope we're going to be sense and and I hope we're going to be sense and and I hope we're going to be able to uh explore it richly in this able to uh explore it richly in this able to uh explore it richly in this episode that that AI is not coming for episode that that AI is not coming for episode that that AI is not coming for the creative industries if we understand the creative industries if we understand the creative industries if we understand them correctly. But I think there is them correctly. But I think there is them correctly. But I think there is also a very deep and real anxiety and also a very deep and real anxiety and also a very deep and real anxiety and >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> um I I really appreciated the way that >> um I I really appreciated the way that >> um I I really appreciated the way that you you you >> um acknowledge that in your answer. I I

>> um acknowledge that in your answer. I I >> um acknowledge that in your answer. I I want to back up just a little bit and want to back up just a little bit and want to back up just a little bit and I I've been listening to other I I've been listening to other I I've been listening to other interviews that you've done and two or interviews that you've done and two or interviews that you've done and two or three times um you've said of books that three times um you've said of books that three times um you've said of books that you've written um say the the wisdom you've written um say the the wisdom you've written um say the the wisdom pyramid where you were talking about pyramid where you were talking about pyramid where you were talking about Christian wisdom or the the book you Christian wisdom or the the book you Christian wisdom or the the book you co-edited scrolling ourselves to death. co-edited scrolling ourselves to death. co-edited scrolling ourselves to death. I I'd probably need to update this for I I'd probably need to update this for I I'd probably need to update this for the age of AI. And so I just want to the age of AI. And so I just want to the age of AI. And so I just want to give you the opportunity to think out give you the opportunity to think out give you the opportunity to think out loud about how the the work you've done loud about how the the work you've done loud about how the the work you've done on social media and uh the importance of on social media and uh the importance of on social media and uh the importance of of church and so forth. of church and so forth. of church and so forth. In what ways do you think AI is just In what ways do you think AI is just In what ways do you think AI is just continuing to make those problems you've continuing to make those problems you've continuing to make those problems you've already identified worse? or or to what already identified worse? or or to what already identified worse? or or to what extent do you think AI is actually extent do you think AI is actually extent do you think AI is actually bringing something new into the mix that bringing something new into the mix that bringing something new into the mix that we haven't had to grapple with before? we haven't had to grapple with before? we haven't had to grapple with before? >> Yeah, that that's a great question. It's >> Yeah, that that's a great question. It's >> Yeah, that that's a great question. It's something I've thought about a lot um something I've thought about a lot um something I've thought about a lot um with regard to my my recent work. You with regard to my my recent work. You with regard to my my recent work. You know, when you're writing about know, when you're writing about know, when you're writing about technology, the danger is, you know, it technology, the danger is, you know, it technology, the danger is, you know, it can be out of date very quickly as as can be out of date very quickly as as can be out of date very quickly as as technology changes rapidly and there's technology changes rapidly and there's technology changes rapidly and there's new dynamics. And even scrolling new dynamics. And even scrolling new dynamics. And even scrolling ourselves to death, which came out, you ourselves to death, which came out, you ourselves to death, which came out, you know, just a year ago, I feel like we know, just a year ago, I feel like we know, just a year ago, I feel like we need to have a book called Prompting need to have a book called Prompting need to have a book called Prompting Ourselves to death that is like a Ourselves to death that is like a Ourselves to death that is like a looking at the the AI situation. Um but looking at the the AI situation. Um but looking at the the AI situation. Um but you know with the wisdom pyramid the you know with the wisdom pyramid the you know with the wisdom pyramid the first line of that book I I talk about first line of that book I I talk about first line of that book I I talk about how we live in a world with more and how we live in a world with more and how we live in a world with more and more information and less and less more information and less and less more information and less and less wisdom. And a a crucial distinction that wisdom. And a a crucial distinction that wisdom. And a a crucial distinction that I make throughout the book is that

I make throughout the book is that I make throughout the book is that wisdom is different. It is categorically wisdom is different. It is categorically wisdom is different. It is categorically different than knowledge and different than knowledge and different than knowledge and information. And in the information age information. And in the information age information. And in the information age when knowledge and information are at when knowledge and information are at when knowledge and information are at our fingertips and AI is just making our fingertips and AI is just making our fingertips and AI is just making that even more um significantly the that even more um significantly the that even more um significantly the case. We have to understand that case. We have to understand that case. We have to understand that distinction. So I think if anything AI distinction. So I think if anything AI distinction. So I think if anything AI is going to make it's going to blur that is going to make it's going to blur that is going to make it's going to blur that distinction. It's going to kind of distinction. It's going to kind of distinction. It's going to kind of confuse people and and kind of confuse confuse people and and kind of confuse confuse people and and kind of confuse our categories because the answers that our categories because the answers that our categories because the answers that AI gives might seem to some people as AI gives might seem to some people as AI gives might seem to some people as wisdom. They're quite sophisticated wisdom. They're quite sophisticated wisdom. They're quite sophisticated answers. they're only going to become answers. they're only going to become answers. they're only going to become more sophisticated. And so, as we kind more sophisticated. And so, as we kind more sophisticated. And so, as we kind of start to rely more and more on AI and of start to rely more and more on AI and of start to rely more and more on AI and the quote wisdom it provides, I think we the quote wisdom it provides, I think we the quote wisdom it provides, I think we have to remember, no, no, no, no, no. have to remember, no, no, no, no, no. have to remember, no, no, no, no, no. This is not wisdom. This is still just This is not wisdom. This is still just This is not wisdom. This is still just information. It's information information. It's information information. It's information synthesized and presented to us in an synthesized and presented to us in an synthesized and presented to us in an unprecedented kind of way, which is very unprecedented kind of way, which is very unprecedented kind of way, which is very sophisticated. It feels it it looks a sophisticated. It feels it it looks a sophisticated. It feels it it looks a little bit like what we think wisdom is.

little bit like what we think wisdom is. little bit like what we think wisdom is. But I think we have to just maintain But I think we have to just maintain But I think we have to just maintain that distinction. This is not wisdom. that distinction. This is not wisdom. that distinction. This is not wisdom. Wisdom and I argue this in the wisdom Wisdom and I argue this in the wisdom Wisdom and I argue this in the wisdom pyramid has a fundamental kind of pyramid has a fundamental kind of pyramid has a fundamental kind of affective dimension to it. It's not just affective dimension to it. It's not just affective dimension to it. It's not just cerebral. It's not just facts in your cerebral. It's not just facts in your cerebral. It's not just facts in your head. It's not just amassing knowledge. head. It's not just amassing knowledge. head. It's not just amassing knowledge. It's the orientation of your loves uh It's the orientation of your loves uh It's the orientation of your loves uh chiefly to God, the the wisdom chiefly to God, the the wisdom chiefly to God, the the wisdom incarnate, the source of all wisdom. Um incarnate, the source of all wisdom. Um incarnate, the source of all wisdom. Um wisdom is worship. That's like a a line wisdom is worship. That's like a a line wisdom is worship. That's like a a line that I repeat all the time. Wisdom is that I repeat all the time. Wisdom is that I repeat all the time. Wisdom is worship. Worship is wisdom. They're one worship. Worship is wisdom. They're one worship. Worship is wisdom. They're one and the same. as we are proximate to and the same. as we are proximate to and the same. as we are proximate to God, as we are in a loving relationship God, as we are in a loving relationship God, as we are in a loving relationship with him. And this is a theme the Bible with him. And this is a theme the Bible with him. And this is a theme the Bible just underscores repeatedly. The just underscores repeatedly. The just underscores repeatedly. The Proverbs, you know, elsewhere, um Psalm Proverbs, you know, elsewhere, um Psalm Proverbs, you know, elsewhere, um Psalm 1 kind of the tree in proximity to the 1 kind of the tree in proximity to the 1 kind of the tree in proximity to the river flourishes like you are wise um river flourishes like you are wise um river flourishes like you are wise um not by virtue of amassing the most facts not by virtue of amassing the most facts not by virtue of amassing the most facts and knowledge, but by virtue of your um and knowledge, but by virtue of your um and knowledge, but by virtue of your um posture and position before the almighty posture and position before the almighty posture and position before the almighty God. Right? The fear of the Lord is the God. Right? The fear of the Lord is the God. Right? The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. U fear is an beginning of wisdom. U fear is an beginning of wisdom. U fear is an emotion. It's something only humans can emotion. It's something only humans can emotion. It's something only humans can have that emotion. Robots, AI can't have have that emotion. Robots, AI can't have have that emotion. Robots, AI can't have that emotion. Um it's humility, you that emotion. Um it's humility, you that emotion. Um it's humility, you know, that's something I don't think AI know, that's something I don't think AI know, that's something I don't think AI can necessarily can necessarily can necessarily express that uh can't it can't practice express that uh can't it can't practice express that uh can't it can't practice fear and love and the emotions that are fear and love and the emotions that are fear and love and the emotions that are so crucial to what we call wisdom. So so crucial to what we call wisdom. So so crucial to what we call wisdom. So yeah, so I would say it's going to AI is yeah, so I would say it's going to AI is yeah, so I would say it's going to AI is going to make that distinction more and

going to make that distinction more and going to make that distinction more and more important between wisdom and more important between wisdom and more important between wisdom and knowledge and information, but it's also knowledge and information, but it's also knowledge and information, but it's also going to make it harder and harder. going to make it harder and harder. going to make it harder and harder. Those categories are going to feel more Those categories are going to feel more Those categories are going to feel more and more blurred. But I think from a and more blurred. But I think from a and more blurred. But I think from a Christian point of view, we really need Christian point of view, we really need Christian point of view, we really need to kind of be clear on what wisdom is to kind of be clear on what wisdom is to kind of be clear on what wisdom is and the distinct human contours of it. I and the distinct human contours of it. I and the distinct human contours of it. I think the allying wisdom with emotion is think the allying wisdom with emotion is think the allying wisdom with emotion is a really rich line of thought, isn't it? a really rich line of thought, isn't it? a really rich line of thought, isn't it? That that our emotions are integral to That that our emotions are integral to That that our emotions are integral to our wisdom. I just want to push you a our wisdom. I just want to push you a our wisdom. I just want to push you a little bit. Are you saying that you are little bit. Are you saying that you are little bit. Are you saying that you are confident that AI will never have the confident that AI will never have the confident that AI will never have the capacity to feel emotion? M I mean I capacity to feel emotion? M I mean I capacity to feel emotion? M I mean I think it it would it would have think it it would it would have think it it would it would have definitely have the capacity to act in a definitely have the capacity to act in a definitely have the capacity to act in a way that looks like emotion and um in way that looks like emotion and um in way that looks like emotion and um in the way in in the way that very much in the way in in the way that very much in the way in in the way that very much in the way that like actors like the way that like actors like the way that like actors like Oscarinning actors can approximate human Oscarinning actors can approximate human Oscarinning actors can approximate human emotion right I think AI is going to be emotion right I think AI is going to be emotion right I think AI is going to be very adept at mimicking human emotion very adept at mimicking human emotion very adept at mimicking human emotion you're already seeing it with like AI you're already seeing it with like AI you're already seeing it with like AI companions right who are programmed am companions right who are programmed am companions right who are programmed am specifically for the purpose of being specifically for the purpose of being specifically for the purpose of being kind of emotional relational friends and kind of emotional relational friends and kind of emotional relational friends and significant others. Um so but I think um significant others. Um so but I think um significant others. Um so but I think um acting at emotion is a different thing acting at emotion is a different thing acting at emotion is a different thing than having emotion, right? And to have than having emotion, right? And to have than having emotion, right? And to have emotion I think is to be an embodied emotion I think is to be an embodied emotion I think is to be an embodied being and I don't think I think we we being and I don't think I think we we being and I don't think I think we we can't divorce any of this from can't divorce any of this from can't divorce any of this from embodiment. Um, emotions are not

embodiment. Um, emotions are not embodiment. Um, emotions are not something that can ever be divorced from something that can ever be divorced from something that can ever be divorced from the way God created us as embodied the way God created us as embodied the way God created us as embodied beings, right? Head, heart, soul, all beings, right? Head, heart, soul, all beings, right? Head, heart, soul, all together in this cohesive way. Um, so together in this cohesive way. Um, so together in this cohesive way. Um, so yeah, I would I would probably plant my yeah, I would I would probably plant my yeah, I would I would probably plant my flag on that claim that AI can never flag on that claim that AI can never flag on that claim that AI can never actually feel what we call emotions. Um actually feel what we call emotions. Um actually feel what we call emotions. Um but certainly [clears throat] it can um but certainly [clears throat] it can um but certainly [clears throat] it can um play at them and act at them and uh you play at them and act at them and uh you play at them and act at them and uh you you know give convincing portrayals of you know give convincing portrayals of you know give convincing portrayals of human emotion. human emotion. human emotion. >> That's such an important distinction >> That's such an important distinction >> That's such an important distinction because I I think it it it allows us to because I I think it it it allows us to because I I think it it it allows us to say AI can look to all the world as if say AI can look to all the world as if say AI can look to all the world as if it is experiencing a whole range of it is experiencing a whole range of it is experiencing a whole range of emotions and can pass for a emotions and can pass for a emotions and can pass for a sophisticated emotional being. sophisticated emotional being. sophisticated emotional being. >> Yeah. while not having those emotions in >> Yeah. while not having those emotions in >> Yeah. while not having those emotions in the way that we have them. And I think the way that we have them. And I think the way that we have them. And I think we recognize that in our own lives, we recognize that in our own lives, we recognize that in our own lives, don't we? Like we've all at some point don't we? Like we've all at some point don't we? Like we've all at some point acted out having a particular emotion, acted out having a particular emotion, acted out having a particular emotion, like it was the right thing to do in a like it was the right thing to do in a like it was the right thing to do in a particular circumstance. So we we particular circumstance. So we we particular circumstance. So we we simulated that emotion. And that's not simulated that emotion. And that's not simulated that emotion. And that's not always wrong in human context. Sometimes always wrong in human context. Sometimes always wrong in human context. Sometimes when when everyone around us is mourning when when everyone around us is mourning when when everyone around us is mourning and we don't feel it, it's right to seek and we don't feel it, it's right to seek and we don't feel it, it's right to seek to mourn with those who mourn. But that to mourn with those who mourn. But that to mourn with those who mourn. But that is profoundly different and we will all is profoundly different and we will all is profoundly different and we will all recognize this in in our own experience, recognize this in in our own experience, recognize this in in our own experience, won't we? That is profoundly different won't we? That is profoundly different won't we? That is profoundly different from being in that position of being from being in that position of being from being in that position of being uncontrollably overcome with grief. Um, uncontrollably overcome with grief. Um, uncontrollably overcome with grief. Um, and there's a world of difference.

and there's a world of difference. and there's a world of difference. >> I think with the emotion question is >> I think with the emotion question is >> I think with the emotion question is also suffering, which um, uh, we could also suffering, which um, uh, we could also suffering, which um, uh, we could have a whole podcast talking about the have a whole podcast talking about the have a whole podcast talking about the the the value of human suffering as kind the the value of human suffering as kind the the value of human suffering as kind of a school of what forms our wisdom. of a school of what forms our wisdom. of a school of what forms our wisdom. And that's something that AI don't think And that's something that AI don't think And that's something that AI don't think can experience either, right? True can experience either, right? True can experience either, right? True suffering is such a formative thing um suffering is such a formative thing um suffering is such a formative thing um in in terms of who we become and and how in in terms of who we become and and how in in terms of who we become and and how we gain wisdom. Think about Job, you we gain wisdom. Think about Job, you we gain wisdom. Think about Job, you know, that wi the wisdom literature of know, that wi the wisdom literature of know, that wi the wisdom literature of the book of Job and so many other the book of Job and so many other the book of Job and so many other examples. Um God uses suffering to examples. Um God uses suffering to examples. Um God uses suffering to instill in us wisdom and it's tied in instill in us wisdom and it's tied in instill in us wisdom and it's tied in with that fear of the Lord as the with that fear of the Lord as the with that fear of the Lord as the beginning of wisdom. kind of our beginning of wisdom. kind of our beginning of wisdom. kind of our creaturliness and our limits and what we creaturliness and our limits and what we creaturliness and our limits and what we can't do and how fragile we are you know can't do and how fragile we are you know can't do and how fragile we are you know Psalm 90 uh that whole idea of you know Psalm 90 uh that whole idea of you know Psalm 90 uh that whole idea of you know teach us to number our days uh because teach us to number our days uh because teach us to number our days uh because of our finitude and our limits are such of our finitude and our limits are such of our finitude and our limits are such a crucial part of our wisdom and I just a crucial part of our wisdom and I just a crucial part of our wisdom and I just don't think AI will ever don't think AI will ever don't think AI will ever even if it could come up with a even if it could come up with a even if it could come up with a self-conception and and maybe like self-conception and and maybe like self-conception and and maybe like approximate consciousness self-awareness approximate consciousness self-awareness approximate consciousness self-awareness it doesn't have that creaturely embodied it doesn't have that creaturely embodied it doesn't have that creaturely embodied finity itude that is so crucial to finity itude that is so crucial to finity itude that is so crucial to wisdom and and and suffering which is so wisdom and and and suffering which is so wisdom and and and suffering which is so crucial to wisdom crucial to wisdom crucial to wisdom >> and I can hear the skeptic of of what >> and I can hear the skeptic of of what >> and I can hear the skeptic of of what we're saying listening to this and we're saying listening to this and we're saying listening to this and saying yes but you're being so naive we saying yes but you're being so naive we saying yes but you're being so naive we we could make you know AI that suffers we could make you know AI that suffers we could make you know AI that suffers but I think we need to come back to the

but I think we need to come back to the but I think we need to come back to the point that you've so helpfully raised in point that you've so helpfully raised in point that you've so helpfully raised in your last answer don't we that there's a your last answer don't we that there's a your last answer don't we that there's a there's a world of difference between there's a world of difference between there's a world of difference between passing for a being that suffers passing for a being that suffers passing for a being that suffers simulating suffering imitating suffering simulating suffering imitating suffering simulating suffering imitating suffering and actually participating in the human and actually participating in the human and actually participating in the human condition that that brings suffering as condition that that brings suffering as condition that that brings suffering as a necessity. M um and this this a necessity. M um and this this a necessity. M um and this this distinction between imitation and distinction between imitation and distinction between imitation and participation I think is is really key participation I think is is really key participation I think is is really key for Christians to to hold on to because for Christians to to hold on to because for Christians to to hold on to because it it it helps us to see that AI can it it it helps us to see that AI can it it it helps us to see that AI can look as though it's feeling love or look as though it's feeling love or look as though it's feeling love or suffering or grieving in a way that I suffering or grieving in a way that I suffering or grieving in a way that I cannot distinguish from a human and it cannot distinguish from a human and it cannot distinguish from a human and it yet still be different. Mhm. yet still be different. Mhm. yet still be different. Mhm. >> And I think I think that will become >> And I think I think that will become >> And I think I think that will become increasingly important perhaps over the increasingly important perhaps over the increasingly important perhaps over the coming years as AI gets more coming years as AI gets more coming years as AI gets more sophisticated. sophisticated. sophisticated. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Um I I know Brett that you're a big fan >> Um I I know Brett that you're a big fan >> Um I I know Brett that you're a big fan of the um thinker Neil Postman and and of the um thinker Neil Postman and and of the um thinker Neil Postman and and his um Amusing Ourselves to Death was his um Amusing Ourselves to Death was his um Amusing Ourselves to Death was the inspiration behind your uh co-editor the inspiration behind your uh co-editor the inspiration behind your uh co-editor volume Scrolling Ourselves to Death.

volume Scrolling Ourselves to Death. volume Scrolling Ourselves to Death. Postman has this really interesting and Postman has this really interesting and Postman has this really interesting and profound reflection on new technologies. profound reflection on new technologies. profound reflection on new technologies. He says something like, "Every new He says something like, "Every new He says something like, "Every new technology brings us something and it technology brings us something and it technology brings us something and it also takes something away from us." And also takes something away from us." And also takes something away from us." And I I'd love to I I'd love to I I'd love to ask your reflections on that in relation ask your reflections on that in relation ask your reflections on that in relation to AI. What do you think AI gives us? to AI. What do you think AI gives us? to AI. What do you think AI gives us? You know, what are its positive You know, what are its positive You know, what are its positive contributions? How is it helping us? And contributions? How is it helping us? And contributions? How is it helping us? And what is AI taking away from us as it what is AI taking away from us as it what is AI taking away from us as it does that? does that? does that? >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. Yeah. I mean, that is a a great question Yeah. I mean, that is a a great question Yeah. I mean, that is a a great question and a big question. And I do appreciate and a big question. And I do appreciate and a big question. And I do appreciate the postman approach uh and and McLuhan the postman approach uh and and McLuhan the postman approach uh and and McLuhan before him, you know, of kind of like before him, you know, of kind of like before him, you know, of kind of like technology has pros and cons. Every new technology has pros and cons. Every new technology has pros and cons. Every new technology, you know, affords us new technology, you know, affords us new technology, you know, affords us new things and maybe complicates other things and maybe complicates other things and maybe complicates other things and brings new challenges. And I things and brings new challenges. And I things and brings new challenges. And I think that it'd be great if if think that it'd be great if if think that it'd be great if if Christians kind of adopted that approach Christians kind of adopted that approach Christians kind of adopted that approach to technology where we're neither, you to technology where we're neither, you to technology where we're neither, you know, so doomsday that we um kind of know, so doomsday that we um kind of know, so doomsday that we um kind of willfully ignore any potential positives willfully ignore any potential positives willfully ignore any potential positives of a technology, but also neither so of a technology, but also neither so of a technology, but also neither so naive or uncritically optimistic that we naive or uncritically optimistic that we naive or uncritically optimistic that we don't, you know, anticipate or foresee don't, you know, anticipate or foresee don't, you know, anticipate or foresee some of the negative ways. So with AI, I some of the negative ways. So with AI, I some of the negative ways. So with AI, I think, you know, it's still so early.

think, you know, it's still so early. think, you know, it's still so early. So, a lot of this is speculation, but I So, a lot of this is speculation, but I So, a lot of this is speculation, but I do think that some there's going to be do think that some there's going to be do think that some there's going to be real positives um with how AI can kind real positives um with how AI can kind real positives um with how AI can kind of streamline a lot of uh grunt work of streamline a lot of uh grunt work of streamline a lot of uh grunt work type tasks and more of the medial tasks. type tasks and more of the medial tasks. type tasks and more of the medial tasks. Everything from scanning, you know, Everything from scanning, you know, Everything from scanning, you know, 90page legal documents and providing 90page legal documents and providing 90page legal documents and providing kind of helpful summaries of that. I was kind of helpful summaries of that. I was kind of helpful summaries of that. I was even thinking about like terms and even thinking about like terms and even thinking about like terms and conditions when you're signing up for a conditions when you're signing up for a conditions when you're signing up for a new subscription service. None of us new subscription service. None of us new subscription service. None of us actually take the time to read that. But actually take the time to read that. But actually take the time to read that. But what if we could like ask AI, hey, could what if we could like ask AI, hey, could what if we could like ask AI, hey, could you quick quickly read every word of the you quick quickly read every word of the you quick quickly read every word of the terms and conditions and let and let me terms and conditions and let and let me terms and conditions and let and let me know what I need to know? Like if know what I need to know? Like if know what I need to know? Like if there's anything that you would flag in there's anything that you would flag in there's anything that you would flag in here that I should be concerned about, here that I should be concerned about, here that I should be concerned about, like let me know. I that would be really like let me know. I that would be really like let me know. I that would be really helpful if AI could do that. So I think helpful if AI could do that. So I think helpful if AI could do that. So I think a lot of the kind of admin assistant a lot of the kind of admin assistant a lot of the kind of admin assistant level with AI is a real potential plus. level with AI is a real potential plus. level with AI is a real potential plus. Um, even in the realm of art making, Um, even in the realm of art making, Um, even in the realm of art making, which is kind of the topic we're which is kind of the topic we're which is kind of the topic we're focusing on in this conversation, um, I focusing on in this conversation, um, I focusing on in this conversation, um, I would say not necessarily on the ideas would say not necessarily on the ideas would say not necessarily on the ideas kind of level or like the creative kind of level or like the creative kind of level or like the creative inspiration or the visionary level, but inspiration or the visionary level, but inspiration or the visionary level, but more on the implementation level, AI more on the implementation level, AI more on the implementation level, AI could be really helpful. I was talking could be really helpful. I was talking could be really helpful. I was talking to some uh folks in the music industry to some uh folks in the music industry to some uh folks in the music industry recently and they were saying like recently and they were saying like recently and they were saying like already AI in the kind of um on the already AI in the kind of um on the already AI in the kind of um on the sound engineering level of like mixing sound engineering level of like mixing sound engineering level of like mixing songs and kind of editing songs is songs and kind of editing songs is songs and kind of editing songs is proving to be super helpful and cutting

proving to be super helpful and cutting proving to be super helpful and cutting costs a little bit. Um, now I I get a costs a little bit. Um, now I I get a costs a little bit. Um, now I I get a little bit leerary of like the slippery little bit leerary of like the slippery little bit leerary of like the slippery slope kind of dynamic of when when slope kind of dynamic of when when slope kind of dynamic of when when artists start to use AI in small ways, artists start to use AI in small ways, artists start to use AI in small ways, you know, it invariably will probably you know, it invariably will probably you know, it invariably will probably lead to bigger and bigger ways. But, um, lead to bigger and bigger ways. But, um, lead to bigger and bigger ways. But, um, I think if if you focus on more of the I think if if you focus on more of the I think if if you focus on more of the menial tasks that don't kind of involve menial tasks that don't kind of involve menial tasks that don't kind of involve the highlevel human visionary thinking, the highlevel human visionary thinking, the highlevel human visionary thinking, then that's a great use of AI. Um, and then that's a great use of AI. Um, and then that's a great use of AI. Um, and then in terms of like my the big then in terms of like my the big then in terms of like my the big negatives that I I worry about with AI, negatives that I I worry about with AI, negatives that I I worry about with AI, I think what it takes away is kind of a I think what it takes away is kind of a I think what it takes away is kind of a value, a robust value of process, which value, a robust value of process, which value, a robust value of process, which we've already talked about a little bit. we've already talked about a little bit. we've already talked about a little bit. The the importance of seeing value in The the importance of seeing value in The the importance of seeing value in what appears to be inefficient, which is what appears to be inefficient, which is what appears to be inefficient, which is like time that it takes to go through like time that it takes to go through like time that it takes to go through the process. I also think AI will the process. I also think AI will the process. I also think AI will potentially take away what is already an potentially take away what is already an potentially take away what is already an eroding virtue I think which is eroding virtue I think which is eroding virtue I think which is patience. um we are an ever more patience. um we are an ever more patience. um we are an ever more impatient people in this frenetic impatient people in this frenetic impatient people in this frenetic digital age and I think that that's a digital age and I think that that's a digital age and I think that that's a biblical value that we really need to biblical value that we really need to biblical value that we really need to fight hard to retain this this kind of fight hard to retain this this kind of fight hard to retain this this kind of patience which goes along with the patience which goes along with the patience which goes along with the process idea and then also just thinking process idea and then also just thinking process idea and then also just thinking like the the muscle of thinking well I like the the muscle of thinking well I like the the muscle of thinking well I worry about that going away like you worry about that going away like you worry about that going away like you know when you don't use a muscle whether know when you don't use a muscle whether know when you don't use a muscle whether physical or otherwise when you don't use

physical or otherwise when you don't use physical or otherwise when you don't use it routinely, it routinely, it routinely, it kind of atrophies. So, as we it kind of atrophies. So, as we it kind of atrophies. So, as we outsource more and more of our thinking outsource more and more of our thinking outsource more and more of our thinking muscles to AI, it will be the case that muscles to AI, it will be the case that muscles to AI, it will be the case that we will start to atrophy our ability to we will start to atrophy our ability to we will start to atrophy our ability to think critically. We've already seen think critically. We've already seen think critically. We've already seen that with the internet age. Nicholas that with the internet age. Nicholas that with the internet age. Nicholas Carr in his books, The Shallows, you Carr in his books, The Shallows, you Carr in his books, The Shallows, you know, he's he's laid out the case that know, he's he's laid out the case that know, he's he's laid out the case that that's already happening. We're losing that's already happening. We're losing that's already happening. We're losing our brains are changing because of the our brains are changing because of the our brains are changing because of the internet. But I think AI runs the risk internet. But I think AI runs the risk internet. But I think AI runs the risk of accelerating that uh where you we we of accelerating that uh where you we we of accelerating that uh where you we we pass off the hard work of thinking pass off the hard work of thinking pass off the hard work of thinking enough that we start to just it becomes enough that we start to just it becomes enough that we start to just it becomes impossible for us and that that's a dire impossible for us and that that's a dire impossible for us and that that's a dire predicament. if we get to a point as a predicament. if we get to a point as a predicament. if we get to a point as a human human race where like no one's human human race where like no one's human human race where like no one's left who who's actually able to like left who who's actually able to like left who who's actually able to like take a step back and critically assess take a step back and critically assess take a step back and critically assess things on a deep level because we're things on a deep level because we're things on a deep level because we're just like a lot shallower people in our just like a lot shallower people in our just like a lot shallower people in our thinking. So there's a lot there, but thinking. So there's a lot there, but thinking. So there's a lot there, but that's that's kind of my my quick that's that's kind of my my quick that's that's kind of my my quick response to pros and cons.

response to pros and cons. response to pros and cons. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> That would indeed be a nightmare >> That would indeed be a nightmare >> That would indeed be a nightmare scenario, wouldn't it? You be in 1984 scenario, wouldn't it? You be in 1984 scenario, wouldn't it? You be in 1984 territory. territory. territory. >> Yeah. Who do you think? Anyone? Anyone? >> Yeah. Who do you think? Anyone? Anyone? >> Yeah. Who do you think? Anyone? Anyone? >> Yeah. Yeah. No, seriously. Yes. Um, so, >> Yeah. Yeah. No, seriously. Yes. Um, so, >> Yeah. Yeah. No, seriously. Yes. Um, so, so what you're saying is great so what you're saying is great so what you're saying is great administrative help, really bad creative administrative help, really bad creative administrative help, really bad creative inspiration. Um, that that it's it's a inspiration. Um, that that it's it's a inspiration. Um, that that it's it's a case of using AI wisely. case of using AI wisely. case of using AI wisely. >> Yes. I want to press a little bit >> Yes. I want to press a little bit >> Yes. I want to press a little bit further into this idea of creativity and further into this idea of creativity and further into this idea of creativity and I want to explore something that that I want to explore something that that I want to explore something that that will never happen but just for the sake will never happen but just for the sake will never happen but just for the sake of a thought experiment let's imagine of a thought experiment let's imagine of a thought experiment let's imagine this thing happened cuz I I think it this thing happened cuz I I think it this thing happened cuz I I think it helps us to get at the idea of is this helps us to get at the idea of is this helps us to get at the idea of is this actually just a prejudice that we have actually just a prejudice that we have actually just a prejudice that we have against AI like give it a generation against AI like give it a generation against AI like give it a generation will people be much more relaxed about will people be much more relaxed about will people be much more relaxed about AI being creative and this is this is AI being creative and this is this is AI being creative and this is this is the thought experiment imagine this the thought experiment imagine this the thought experiment imagine this >> um take your favorite work of >> um take your favorite work of >> um take your favorite work of literature, whatever it is. I'm I'm literature, whatever it is. I'm I'm literature, whatever it is. I'm I'm thinking of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Okay. thinking of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Okay. thinking of Shakespeare's Hamlet. Okay. And imagine that one day we woke up and And imagine that one day we woke up and And imagine that one day we woke up and the the headline on the front page of the the headline on the front page of the the headline on the front page of all the news sites was, "Shock horror.

all the news sites was, "Shock horror. all the news sites was, "Shock horror. We've discovered that Shakespeare's We've discovered that Shakespeare's We've discovered that Shakespeare's Hamlet was actually written by AI." All Hamlet was actually written by AI." All Hamlet was actually written by AI." All of them. of them. of them. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Exact same words. Everything's the same. >> Exact same words. Everything's the same. >> Exact same words. Everything's the same. >> But now we realize that it was generated >> But now we realize that it was generated >> But now we realize that it was generated by a machine. by a machine. by a machine. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. What difference, first of all, would What difference, first of all, would What difference, first of all, would that make to the way that you that make to the way that you that make to the way that you personally, Brett McCracken, would personally, Brett McCracken, would personally, Brett McCracken, would experience that work of art? And more experience that work of art? And more experience that work of art? And more broadly, should that make a difference broadly, should that make a difference broadly, should that make a difference to the way that we experience it? to the way that we experience it? to the way that we experience it? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, personally, it would >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, personally, it would >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean, personally, it would make a world of difference. Um, I would make a world of difference. Um, I would make a world of difference. Um, I would I would say part of the beauty of I would say part of the beauty of I would say part of the beauty of watching a play like Hamlet or reading watching a play like Hamlet or reading watching a play like Hamlet or reading it or, you know, experiencing any art is it or, you know, experiencing any art is it or, you know, experiencing any art is just knowing that there's a real human just knowing that there's a real human just knowing that there's a real human being. there's a human soul behind this being. there's a human soul behind this being. there's a human soul behind this and uh in as a film critic uh there's and uh in as a film critic uh there's and uh in as a film critic uh there's different kind of approaches to film different kind of approaches to film different kind of approaches to film criticism and in grad school you know at criticism and in grad school you know at criticism and in grad school you know at UCLA film studies we we learned about UCLA film studies we we learned about UCLA film studies we we learned about all these different approaches and all these different approaches and all these different approaches and there's kind of the text criticism there's kind of the text criticism there's kind of the text criticism approach where you focus almost entirely approach where you focus almost entirely approach where you focus almost entirely on the end result and like deep analysis on the end result and like deep analysis on the end result and like deep analysis uh textual analysis of like the film uh textual analysis of like the film uh textual analysis of like the film itself u but there's also the the aurist itself u but there's also the the aurist itself u but there's also the the aurist approach approach to film criticism approach approach to film criticism approach approach to film criticism where you kind of focus on the where you kind of focus on the where you kind of focus on the personality and that's always been my personality and that's always been my personality and that's always been my approach when I'm reading a film and approach when I'm reading a film and approach when I'm reading a film and writing about it. I I pay a lot of writing about it. I I pay a lot of writing about it. I I pay a lot of attention to who are the people behind attention to who are the people behind attention to who are the people behind this product and what's their story and this product and what's their story and this product and what's their story and why are they making this film? Why are why are they making this film? Why are why are they making this film? Why are they making it in this particular way?

they making it in this particular way? they making it in this particular way? For me, that's always been the more For me, that's always been the more For me, that's always been the more important and interesting important and interesting important and interesting aspect of the arts. You know, who was aspect of the arts. You know, who was aspect of the arts. You know, who was Michelangelo, right? and and what would Michelangelo, right? and and what would Michelangelo, right? and and what would lead him to make the masterpieces he he lead him to make the masterpieces he he lead him to make the masterpieces he he made. Well, who is who who is Hondle, made. Well, who is who who is Hondle, made. Well, who is who who is Hondle, you know, how this the story behind the you know, how this the story behind the you know, how this the story behind the Messiah is just is so compelling. Um, so Messiah is just is so compelling. Um, so Messiah is just is so compelling. Um, so yeah, I think if we found out yeah, I think if we found out yeah, I think if we found out Shakespeare was a an LLM, you know, and Shakespeare was a an LLM, you know, and Shakespeare was a an LLM, you know, and everything he made was a soulless thing, everything he made was a soulless thing, everything he made was a soulless thing, I think that would make a huge I think that would make a huge I think that would make a huge difference. um with that example in difference. um with that example in difference. um with that example in particular, uh I don't know if you've particular, uh I don't know if you've particular, uh I don't know if you've seen the new movie Hamnit that is kind seen the new movie Hamnit that is kind seen the new movie Hamnit that is kind of um it's it's being nominated for a of um it's it's being nominated for a of um it's it's being nominated for a lot of awards, but it's kind of the the lot of awards, but it's kind of the the lot of awards, but it's kind of the the story behind Hamlet. what was going on story behind Hamlet. what was going on story behind Hamlet. what was going on in Shakespeare's life and his his wife in Shakespeare's life and his his wife in Shakespeare's life and his his wife Anne Hathaway Anne Hathaway Anne Hathaway they had lost a a child in a very tragic they had lost a a child in a very tragic they had lost a a child in a very tragic way to the plague and uh and his name way to the plague and uh and his name way to the plague and uh and his name was Hamnet which is kind of another kind was Hamnet which is kind of another kind was Hamnet which is kind of another kind of uh of uh of uh way to say Hamlet. So the pl they the way to say Hamlet. So the pl they the way to say Hamlet. So the pl they the movie Hamnit is such a beautiful example movie Hamnit is such a beautiful example movie Hamnit is such a beautiful example of how of how of how great art comes from a personal place.

great art comes from a personal place. great art comes from a personal place. you know, to go back to my my opening you know, to go back to my my opening you know, to go back to my my opening statements about like process matters statements about like process matters statements about like process matters and also like personal praise and and and also like personal praise and and and also like personal praise and and kind of the personal love behind kind of the personal love behind kind of the personal love behind something. Yeah, it really matters like something. Yeah, it really matters like something. Yeah, it really matters like um you know I think that can we enjoy um you know I think that can we enjoy um you know I think that can we enjoy something that is AI made like can we ex something that is AI made like can we ex something that is AI made like can we ex can we as the viewers or readers can we as the viewers or readers can we as the viewers or readers experience real emotion experience real emotion experience real emotion when we encounter something that AI made when we encounter something that AI made when we encounter something that AI made certainly I think that that's absolutely certainly I think that that's absolutely certainly I think that that's absolutely possible but does it also matter that possible but does it also matter that possible but does it also matter that there's no soul behind it yes I think there's no soul behind it yes I think there's no soul behind it yes I think that also matters um there's a recent a that also matters um there's a recent a that also matters um there's a recent a recent example in my world is the the recent example in my world is the the recent example in my world is the the rise of AI made music. Um, and there's rise of AI made music. Um, and there's rise of AI made music. Um, and there's even like Christian music that you can even like Christian music that you can even like Christian music that you can find on Spotify that is very popular and find on Spotify that is very popular and find on Spotify that is very popular and it has a lot of streams, but it's AI it has a lot of streams, but it's AI it has a lot of streams, but it's AI made. It's, you know, one example is made. It's, you know, one example is made. It's, you know, one example is this artist uh, you know, quote unquote this artist uh, you know, quote unquote this artist uh, you know, quote unquote artist named Holy Groove. And, you know, artist named Holy Groove. And, you know, artist named Holy Groove. And, you know, if you look if you look up the songs if you look if you look up the songs if you look if you look up the songs from Holy Groove, they're they're from Holy Groove, they're they're from Holy Groove, they're they're beautiful. Like in terms of the nuts and beautiful. Like in terms of the nuts and beautiful. Like in terms of the nuts and bolts, it's it's very easy listening.

bolts, it's it's very easy listening. bolts, it's it's very easy listening. It's enjoyable It's enjoyable It's enjoyable until you find out that it was AI made until you find out that it was AI made until you find out that it was AI made for me when I discover that it I I just for me when I discover that it I I just for me when I discover that it I I just kind of lose any interest. Like I'm it kind of lose any interest. Like I'm it kind of lose any interest. Like I'm it feels like a waste of my time to engage feels like a waste of my time to engage feels like a waste of my time to engage with something, however pretty it is, with something, however pretty it is, with something, however pretty it is, however um however emotionally engaging however um however emotionally engaging however um however emotionally engaging it might be. Um I I don't want to spend it might be. Um I I don't want to spend it might be. Um I I don't want to spend my time um as a listener my precious my my time um as a listener my precious my my time um as a listener my precious my precious few minutes that I have precious few minutes that I have precious few minutes that I have available to give myself to to give my available to give myself to to give my available to give myself to to give my attention to something that is has been attention to something that is has been attention to something that is has been created. I want to give my attention to created. I want to give my attention to created. I want to give my attention to another human being's output. It it's an another human being's output. It it's an another human being's output. It it's an act of love for fellow human beings. you act of love for fellow human beings. you act of love for fellow human beings. you know, it's it for me um in in engaging know, it's it for me um in in engaging know, it's it for me um in in engaging with the arts and being kind of an with the arts and being kind of an with the arts and being kind of an appreciator of the arts is a way that I appreciator of the arts is a way that I appreciator of the arts is a way that I love my neighbor. It's a way that I like love my neighbor. It's a way that I like love my neighbor. It's a way that I like live the greatest commandment, you know, live the greatest commandment, you know, live the greatest commandment, you know, to love God and love my neighbor. Um and to love God and love my neighbor. Um and to love God and love my neighbor. Um and so I don't want to spend my attent my in so I don't want to spend my attent my in so I don't want to spend my attent my in my few minutes of attention on something my few minutes of attention on something my few minutes of attention on something that isn't an opportunity to love uh my that isn't an opportunity to love uh my that isn't an opportunity to love uh my my human neighbor.

my human neighbor. my human neighbor. >> Amen. You you said in the course of that >> Amen. You you said in the course of that >> Amen. You you said in the course of that answer that it whatever AI produced answer that it whatever AI produced answer that it whatever AI produced artistically would have no soul. It is artistically would have no soul. It is artistically would have no soul. It is it perhaps not also the case that it it perhaps not also the case that it it perhaps not also the case that it would in a sense have too much so in in would in a sense have too much so in in would in a sense have too much so in in the sense that what AI does is it it the sense that what AI does is it it the sense that what AI does is it it sucks up so much human production so sucks up so much human production so sucks up so much human production so many human artistic works and and in many human artistic works and and in many human artistic works and and in very sophisticated way sort of averages very sophisticated way sort of averages very sophisticated way sort of averages them out them out them out >> and then is able to predict what >> and then is able to predict what >> and then is able to predict what creative humans would write in a creative humans would write in a creative humans would write in a particular case. And so it's it's particular case. And so it's it's particular case. And so it's it's in a sense the whole world talking to in a sense the whole world talking to in a sense the whole world talking to you at once rather than one particular you at once rather than one particular you at once rather than one particular human being. And it it reminds me of human being. And it it reminds me of human being. And it it reminds me of that Charlie Brown cartoon that often that Charlie Brown cartoon that often that Charlie Brown cartoon that often gets quoted. Uh I I love humanity. It's gets quoted. Uh I I love humanity. It's gets quoted. Uh I I love humanity. It's people I can't stand. people I can't stand. people I can't stand. >> Individual people. So it's giving you >> Individual people. So it's giving you >> Individual people. So it's giving you your you know a humanity written poem or your you know a humanity written poem or your you know a humanity written poem or play [clears throat] play [clears throat] play [clears throat] >> whereas we're not called as Christians >> whereas we're not called as Christians >> whereas we're not called as Christians and I I love the way that you landed and I I love the way that you landed and I I love the way that you landed that answer with the the the idea of that answer with the the the idea of that answer with the the the idea of love. We're not called to love humanity love. We're not called to love humanity love. We're not called to love humanity in an abstract way. We we we love in an abstract way. We we we love in an abstract way. We we we love individual human beings. Um individual human beings. Um individual human beings. Um [clears throat] and that's what is [clears throat] and that's what is [clears throat] and that's what is robbing us of that individual human robbing us of that individual human robbing us of that individual human expression.

expression. expression. >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of >> Yeah. I mean, I think there's a lot of great kind of complexities there in that great kind of complexities there in that great kind of complexities there in that dynamic, Chris, because I even think dynamic, Chris, because I even think dynamic, Chris, because I even think about how some art forms are more about how some art forms are more about how some art forms are more collaborative to begin with. Like a film collaborative to begin with. Like a film collaborative to begin with. Like a film usually has, you know, hundreds and usually has, you know, hundreds and usually has, you know, hundreds and hundreds of humans behind it. So when hundreds of humans behind it. So when hundreds of humans behind it. So when I'm when I'm watching a film, like it is I'm when I'm watching a film, like it is I'm when I'm watching a film, like it is kind of in in the way that AI pulls from kind of in in the way that AI pulls from kind of in in the way that AI pulls from a bunch of different like human a bunch of different like human a bunch of different like human inspirations to create something like a inspirations to create something like a inspirations to create something like a film is doing that too. And yet the film is doing that too. And yet the film is doing that too. And yet the difference is like there's there's difference is like there's there's difference is like there's there's usually like one or two nameable usually like one or two nameable usually like one or two nameable creatives that I can, you know, actually creatives that I can, you know, actually creatives that I can, you know, actually like have in my mind and like say thank like have in my mind and like say thank like have in my mind and like say thank you to like um and it's not like I get you to like um and it's not like I get you to like um and it's not like I get the chance to like physically say thank the chance to like physically say thank the chance to like physically say thank you to like Steven Spielberg when I you to like Steven Spielberg when I you to like Steven Spielberg when I watch his film, but occasionally I do in watch his film, but occasionally I do in watch his film, but occasionally I do in my profession, which is fun. I get to my profession, which is fun. I get to my profession, which is fun. I get to meet you know these creatives but at meet you know these creatives but at meet you know these creatives but at least in theory there's like someone I least in theory there's like someone I least in theory there's like someone I can name who who is a flesh and blood can name who who is a flesh and blood can name who who is a flesh and blood human who was behind this beautiful the human who was behind this beautiful the human who was behind this beautiful the work and I can say thank you to them in work and I can say thank you to them in work and I can say thank you to them in the same way that you know our vertical the same way that you know our vertical the same way that you know our vertical relationship to God. It's it matters relationship to God. It's it matters relationship to God. It's it matters that when we look around at the beauty that when we look around at the beauty that when we look around at the beauty of creation and we have an impulse to of creation and we have an impulse to of creation and we have an impulse to give thanks for it. It it matters that give thanks for it. It it matters that give thanks for it. It it matters that there's someone with a capital S that we there's someone with a capital S that we there's someone with a capital S that we can thank I can like actually name him.

can thank I can like actually name him. can thank I can like actually name him. I can like praise him and it's not just I can like praise him and it's not just I can like praise him and it's not just this disembodied ethereal kind of this disembodied ethereal kind of this disembodied ethereal kind of reality that created this world. It's a reality that created this world. It's a reality that created this world. It's a specific you know nameable God and that specific you know nameable God and that specific you know nameable God and that makes a world of difference. And so that makes a world of difference. And so that makes a world of difference. And so that I think the dynamic is a little bit I think the dynamic is a little bit I think the dynamic is a little bit similar with with AI made art. Um I we similar with with AI made art. Um I we similar with with AI made art. Um I we have an impulse to want to be able to have an impulse to want to be able to have an impulse to want to be able to commune with the creator and and give commune with the creator and and give commune with the creator and and give them gratitude even if it's you know them gratitude even if it's you know them gratitude even if it's you know just kind of a a prayer worth thought of just kind of a a prayer worth thought of just kind of a a prayer worth thought of like oh this thank you for this amazing like oh this thank you for this amazing like oh this thank you for this amazing thing that is such a powerful analogy. thing that is such a powerful analogy. thing that is such a powerful analogy. I'd never thought of it that way before I'd never thought of it that way before I'd never thought of it that way before that [clears throat] the same way that that [clears throat] the same way that that [clears throat] the same way that that it's so precious as Christians for that it's so precious as Christians for that it's so precious as Christians for us to be able to say thank you Lord for us to be able to say thank you Lord for us to be able to say thank you Lord for >> making the world like we can name God we >> making the world like we can name God we >> making the world like we can name God we can have that relationship with him that can have that relationship with him that can have that relationship with him that is also there's a there's an echo is also there's a there's an echo is also there's a there's an echo there's a shadow of that in the way we there's a shadow of that in the way we there's a shadow of that in the way we relate to art relate to art relate to art >> and perhaps that's one thing that that >> and perhaps that's one thing that that >> and perhaps that's one thing that that we could say to Sarah like your art we could say to Sarah like your art we could say to Sarah like your art matters because you matter matters because you matter matters because you matter >> you know it's not you're not just a cog >> you know it's not you're not just a cog >> you know it's not you're not just a cog in a machine producing content in a machine producing content in a machine producing content your experience of the world your experience of the world your experience of the world [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> is, you know, God has numbered every >> is, you know, God has numbered every >> is, you know, God has numbered every hair on your head hair on your head hair on your head >> and and therefore your what you produce >> and and therefore your what you produce >> and and therefore your what you produce artistically matters because it's it's artistically matters because it's it's artistically matters because it's it's produced by you. [sighs and gasps] produced by you. [sighs and gasps] produced by you. [sighs and gasps] Um, Um, Um, I want to return to this question of I want to return to this question of I want to return to this question of struggle and process that you've raised struggle and process that you've raised struggle and process that you've raised a couple of times and it's something a couple of times and it's something a couple of times and it's something that that I we often hear Christians

that that I we often hear Christians that that I we often hear Christians talk about in relation to AI and I think talk about in relation to AI and I think talk about in relation to AI and I think it's one of the the key ideas for us to it's one of the the key ideas for us to it's one of the the key ideas for us to really get our heads around the value really get our heads around the value really get our heads around the value not simply of the final product like the not simply of the final product like the not simply of the final product like the the final sermon preached or or the the final sermon preached or or the the final sermon preached or or the final artwork sold or created but how final artwork sold or created but how final artwork sold or created but how you get there. you get there. you get there. Um, and and I guess this is such an Um, and and I guess this is such an Um, and and I guess this is such an acute question at the moment because AI acute question at the moment because AI acute question at the moment because AI is coming for that process, isn't it? It is coming for that process, isn't it? It is coming for that process, isn't it? It it's promising us I can get you to the it's promising us I can get you to the it's promising us I can get you to the product without a huge amount of the product without a huge amount of the product without a huge amount of the grunt work that that you usually put in. grunt work that that you usually put in. grunt work that that you usually put in. And so as as you see, what's the value And so as as you see, what's the value And so as as you see, what's the value of process of of that grunt work? And of process of of that grunt work? And of process of of that grunt work? And and let me just play devil's advocate and let me just play devil's advocate and let me just play devil's advocate because I think most of us would say, because I think most of us would say, because I think most of us would say, "Oh, that's so incredibly important, but "Oh, that's so incredibly important, but "Oh, that's so incredibly important, but let let me try and let let me try and let let me try and make the question a little bit harder make the question a little bit harder make the question a little bit harder for you. So, you know, back in the for you. So, you know, back in the for you. So, you know, back in the reformation times, people might have reformation times, people might have reformation times, people might have complained potentially that, you know, complained potentially that, you know, complained potentially that, you know, the printing press is making acquiring the printing press is making acquiring the printing press is making acquiring and reading books too easy compared to and reading books too easy compared to and reading books too easy compared to copying manuscripts. We're losing the copying manuscripts. We're losing the copying manuscripts. We're losing the the the precious grunt work of copying the the precious grunt work of copying the the precious grunt work of copying it out by hand and and therefore we're it out by hand and and therefore we're it out by hand and and therefore we're losing its preciousness. You know, books losing its preciousness. You know, books losing its preciousness. You know, books are are are too easy to make these days.

are are are too easy to make these days. are are are too easy to make these days. is the arguments that we're having about is the arguments that we're having about is the arguments that we're having about AI today, are they just a 21st century AI today, are they just a 21st century AI today, are they just a 21st century version of the arguments that we've version of the arguments that we've version of the arguments that we've always had about technology? Oh, this is always had about technology? Oh, this is always had about technology? Oh, this is taking all the the magic and mystery out taking all the the magic and mystery out taking all the the magic and mystery out of creating art, or do you think that of creating art, or do you think that of creating art, or do you think that something different is happening, something different is happening, something different is happening, different dynamics are at play with AI different dynamics are at play with AI different dynamics are at play with AI today? today? today? >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I >> Yeah, that's a great question. And I don't think it's all that different. I don't think it's all that different. I don't think it's all that different. I think that it's actually a pretty good think that it's actually a pretty good think that it's actually a pretty good comparison. Um, but what I would say is comparison. Um, but what I would say is comparison. Um, but what I would say is friction. First of all, it's not friction. First of all, it's not friction. First of all, it's not necessarily a good thing in and of necessarily a good thing in and of necessarily a good thing in and of itself, right? It's about it's about how itself, right? It's about it's about how itself, right? It's about it's about how the friction forms you. So, if there's the friction forms you. So, if there's the friction forms you. So, if there's friction that's just like a meaningless friction that's just like a meaningless friction that's just like a meaningless friction and there's not there's no good friction and there's not there's no good friction and there's not there's no good kind of formation happening, then by all kind of formation happening, then by all kind of formation happening, then by all means, like eliminating that friction, means, like eliminating that friction, means, like eliminating that friction, simplifying is a great thing. That's why simplifying is a great thing. That's why simplifying is a great thing. That's why I think the kind of some of the menial I think the kind of some of the menial I think the kind of some of the menial labor aspects, if AI could do that for labor aspects, if AI could do that for labor aspects, if AI could do that for us, that's great. Um, but also there's a us, that's great. Um, but also there's a us, that's great. Um, but also there's a there's a type of friction. Uh, there's there's a type of friction. Uh, there's there's a type of friction. Uh, there's a type of kind of slowing down and and a type of kind of slowing down and and a type of kind of slowing down and and having to go through a process that is having to go through a process that is having to go through a process that is deeply valuable for us in cultivating deeply valuable for us in cultivating deeply valuable for us in cultivating virtues like patience and diligence and virtues like patience and diligence and virtues like patience and diligence and um just an awareness of our limitations um just an awareness of our limitations um just an awareness of our limitations and and what we can't do and what we and and what we can't do and what we and and what we can't do and what we have to go through. Um and that's I have to go through. Um and that's I have to go through. Um and that's I think it's important even if even if we think it's important even if even if we think it's important even if even if we can reduce the friction and and and um can reduce the friction and and and um can reduce the friction and and and um have technology help us with that. I have technology help us with that. I have technology help us with that. I think it's important that we never

think it's important that we never think it's important that we never strive to kind of eradicate all friction strive to kind of eradicate all friction strive to kind of eradicate all friction from our lives. Um you know with with from our lives. Um you know with with from our lives. Um you know with with pastors and AI like sermon writing for pastors and AI like sermon writing for pastors and AI like sermon writing for example like um you know crafting a example like um you know crafting a example like um you know crafting a sermon for a pastor is not just about sermon for a pastor is not just about sermon for a pastor is not just about the end product for the congregation. the end product for the congregation. the end product for the congregation. That's an important part of it. But it's That's an important part of it. But it's That's an important part of it. But it's as you wrestle with the text um yourself as you wrestle with the text um yourself as you wrestle with the text um yourself and as you kind of labor to craft a and as you kind of labor to craft a and as you kind of labor to craft a sermon that is uh internalizing the sermon that is uh internalizing the sermon that is uh internalizing the truth of the text for yourself and then truth of the text for yourself and then truth of the text for yourself and then and thinking about applying it to and thinking about applying it to and thinking about applying it to everyday life. That's a valuable thing everyday life. That's a valuable thing everyday life. That's a valuable thing for you and your spiritual formation. for you and your spiritual formation. for you and your spiritual formation. Right? So that's a that's a friction Right? So that's a that's a friction Right? So that's a that's a friction that forms you and it would be a real lo that forms you and it would be a real lo that forms you and it would be a real lo loss I think if you kind of got rid of loss I think if you kind of got rid of loss I think if you kind of got rid of that alto together in your reformation that alto together in your reformation that alto together in your reformation example. I think there's a similar thing example. I think there's a similar thing example. I think there's a similar thing with the the the manu manuscript uh with the the the manu manuscript uh with the the the manu manuscript uh copiists as they're doing that really um copiists as they're doing that really um copiists as they're doing that really um time inensive labor. It was no doubt time inensive labor. It was no doubt time inensive labor. It was no doubt deeply spiritually formative for them.

deeply spiritually formative for them. deeply spiritually formative for them. I'm the process of copying things by I'm the process of copying things by I'm the process of copying things by hand. You know, even teachers today will hand. You know, even teachers today will hand. You know, even teachers today will sometimes instruct students to like copy sometimes instruct students to like copy sometimes instruct students to like copy things by hand because you retain things things by hand because you retain things things by hand because you retain things differently in your in your brain. So, differently in your in your brain. So, differently in your in your brain. So, you know, it getting rid of that is a you know, it getting rid of that is a you know, it getting rid of that is a loss, right? Because there's something loss, right? Because there's something loss, right? Because there's something there was something spiritually formed there was something spiritually formed there was something spiritually formed about that. At the same time, um there's about that. At the same time, um there's about that. At the same time, um there's a new friction introduced with the a new friction introduced with the a new friction introduced with the printing press in a way because like printing press in a way because like printing press in a way because like reading a book, it for a lot of people, reading a book, it for a lot of people, reading a book, it for a lot of people, you know, that's a hard thing. there's a you know, that's a hard thing. there's a you know, that's a hard thing. there's a friction to have to sit with a book and friction to have to sit with a book and friction to have to sit with a book and read it in a in a bit of a more solitary read it in a in a bit of a more solitary read it in a in a bit of a more solitary format. You know, uh that can be with a format. You know, uh that can be with a format. You know, uh that can be with a Bible. We know that's a that that's a Bible. We know that's a that that's a Bible. We know that's a that that's a challenge, right? It sounds easy, but challenge, right? It sounds easy, but challenge, right? It sounds easy, but sitting by yourself with a Bible trying sitting by yourself with a Bible trying sitting by yourself with a Bible trying to make sense of it is hard and that's to make sense of it is hard and that's to make sense of it is hard and that's there's a friction with that, but it's a there's a friction with that, but it's a there's a friction with that, but it's a good friction, right? And I would hate good friction, right? And I would hate good friction, right? And I would hate to see people use AI to bypass that to see people use AI to bypass that to see people use AI to bypass that friction of like personal Bible study. friction of like personal Bible study. friction of like personal Bible study. Like if we ever got to a point where Like if we ever got to a point where Like if we ever got to a point where people were routinely like, you know, people were routinely like, you know, people were routinely like, you know, let's say they're doing a Bible reading let's say they're doing a Bible reading let's say they're doing a Bible reading plan and like like for me this morning I plan and like like for me this morning I plan and like like for me this morning I had to read like three chapters in uh had to read like three chapters in uh had to read like three chapters in uh Numbers, you know, not the most Numbers, you know, not the most Numbers, you know, not the most stimulating reading and I could have stimulating reading and I could have stimulating reading and I could have asked Chad GPT, you know, could you asked Chad GPT, you know, could you asked Chad GPT, you know, could you summarize this for me in like 30 seconds summarize this for me in like 30 seconds summarize this for me in like 30 seconds and just give me like the the main and just give me like the the main and just give me like the the main bullet points, but obviously that would bullet points, but obviously that would bullet points, but obviously that would be a deprivation, right, of like be a deprivation, right, of like be a deprivation, right, of like something good in the process of me kind something good in the process of me kind something good in the process of me kind of having that friction of reading the of having that friction of reading the of having that friction of reading the Bible and and trying to kind of um have

Bible and and trying to kind of um have Bible and and trying to kind of um have a sense for what God is saying there. a sense for what God is saying there. a sense for what God is saying there. So, so yeah, I mean I think um friction So, so yeah, I mean I think um friction So, so yeah, I mean I think um friction it's good to reduce it. It's good to um it's good to reduce it. It's good to um it's good to reduce it. It's good to um solve problems. I think that's part of solve problems. I think that's part of solve problems. I think that's part of the creation mandate, you know, in that the creation mandate, you know, in that the creation mandate, you know, in that Adam and Eve had and that we all have. Adam and Eve had and that we all have. Adam and Eve had and that we all have. like bringing order out of chaos is a like bringing order out of chaos is a like bringing order out of chaos is a good thing and reducing friction in good thing and reducing friction in good thing and reducing friction in certain areas of life is a good thing certain areas of life is a good thing certain areas of life is a good thing but I don't think the mandate is to but I don't think the mandate is to but I don't think the mandate is to eradicate all eradicate all eradicate all form formation that is deeply tied to form formation that is deeply tied to form formation that is deeply tied to the process and the challenge of of the process and the challenge of of the process and the challenge of of doing the work doing the work doing the work but yeah this is I mean this is a huge but yeah this is I mean this is a huge but yeah this is I mean this is a huge topic um so we could talk all day about topic um so we could talk all day about topic um so we could talk all day about just this question but yeah just this question but yeah just this question but yeah >> I'd bet I'd love to do that Um, I I I >> I'd bet I'd love to do that Um, I I I >> I'd bet I'd love to do that Um, I I I fear the TGC may not may not appreciate fear the TGC may not may not appreciate fear the TGC may not may not appreciate us if we if we did that. I I remember us if we if we did that. I I remember us if we if we did that. I I remember John D. Um, I I think once I heard him John D. Um, I I think once I heard him John D. Um, I I think once I heard him say for almost all of human history, say for almost all of human history, say for almost all of human history, we've had one problem, which is how to we've had one problem, which is how to we've had one problem, which is how to get enough calories into our bodies to get enough calories into our bodies to get enough calories into our bodies to keep us alive.

keep us alive. keep us alive. >> And then in the last few decades, we've >> And then in the last few decades, we've >> And then in the last few decades, we've suddenly suddenly suddenly >> had a second problem, which is how not >> had a second problem, which is how not >> had a second problem, which is how not to have too many calories uh in order to to have too many calories uh in order to to have too many calories uh in order to make us ill. uh and adapting to that is make us ill. uh and adapting to that is make us ill. uh and adapting to that is is proving hugely problematic. And he is proving hugely problematic. And he is proving hugely problematic. And he made the analogy with friction. He says made the analogy with friction. He says made the analogy with friction. He says for almost all of human history, our one for almost all of human history, our one for almost all of human history, our one problem is how to make things easier and problem is how to make things easier and problem is how to make things easier and more streamlined and how to take more streamlined and how to take more streamlined and how to take friction out of life. And we've friction out of life. And we've friction out of life. And we've [clears throat] got really good at that [clears throat] got really good at that [clears throat] got really good at that >> and AI is poised to make us >> and AI is poised to make us >> and AI is poised to make us exceptionally good at that. exceptionally good at that. exceptionally good at that. >> But that's bringing a second problem >> But that's bringing a second problem >> But that's bringing a second problem alongside which is hold on, what's the alongside which is hold on, what's the alongside which is hold on, what's the right amount of friction to have in a right amount of friction to have in a right amount of friction to have in a human life? If if I can potentially human life? If if I can potentially human life? If if I can potentially reduce it to close to zero, that's just reduce it to close to zero, that's just reduce it to close to zero, that's just like I can have all the calories that I like I can have all the calories that I like I can have all the calories that I want and let's just, you know, eat want and let's just, you know, eat want and let's just, you know, eat chocolate cake all day. That that's not chocolate cake all day. That that's not chocolate cake all day. That that's not going to go well. And so we we having to going to go well. And so we we having to going to go well. And so we we having to struggle to cope with this new reality struggle to cope with this new reality struggle to cope with this new reality of hold on, how much friction do I want of hold on, how much friction do I want of hold on, how much friction do I want to retain in my life? How many, you to retain in my life? How many, you to retain in my life? How many, you know, how much should I be sweating over know, how much should I be sweating over know, how much should I be sweating over the sermon that I'm writing? Or how hard the sermon that I'm writing? Or how hard the sermon that I'm writing? Or how hard should writing an article be for me?

should writing an article be for me? should writing an article be for me? What's the optimal level of that? And I What's the optimal level of that? And I What's the optimal level of that? And I think that's such a hard think that's such a hard think that's such a hard >> question, isn't it? Because there are so >> question, isn't it? Because there are so >> question, isn't it? Because there are so many pressures on us, you know, to get many pressures on us, you know, to get many pressures on us, you know, to get things done and so forth that it's things done and so forth that it's things done and so forth that it's >> it's it's hard to adjust um to that. I I >> it's it's hard to adjust um to that. I I >> it's it's hard to adjust um to that. I I I'd love to give you the opportunity to I'd love to give you the opportunity to I'd love to give you the opportunity to sing the praises if you want to of three sing the praises if you want to of three sing the praises if you want to of three particular liturgies of the modern age. particular liturgies of the modern age. particular liturgies of the modern age. So I'm assuming that most people So I'm assuming that most people So I'm assuming that most people listening to or watching this would say listening to or watching this would say listening to or watching this would say I do not want to sit under a preacher I do not want to sit under a preacher I do not want to sit under a preacher whose sermon was written by AI. And most whose sermon was written by AI. And most whose sermon was written by AI. And most preachers listening to this would be preachers listening to this would be preachers listening to this would be saying to themselves, I don't want to be saying to themselves, I don't want to be saying to themselves, I don't want to be the preacher who has AI around my the preacher who has AI around my the preacher who has AI around my sermons. But there are some more sort of sermons. But there are some more sort of sermons. But there are some more sort of almost edge cases of is this really almost edge cases of is this really almost edge cases of is this really helpful for me? Is this a friction that helpful for me? Is this a friction that helpful for me? Is this a friction that I do want to eliminate? And the three I do want to eliminate? And the three I do want to eliminate? And the three cases that I'm thinking about in cases that I'm thinking about in cases that I'm thinking about in particular are um solitude and just particular are um solitude and just particular are um solitude and just being by yourself. being by yourself. being by yourself. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] >> Boredom >> Boredom >> Boredom and randomness in life.

and randomness in life. and randomness in life. >> Um do you think those are precious >> Um do you think those are precious >> Um do you think those are precious commodities that we need to keep? Are we commodities that we need to keep? Are we commodities that we need to keep? Are we are we good to to get that fiction out are we good to to get that fiction out are we good to to get that fiction out of our lives? Where do you stand in of our lives? Where do you stand in of our lives? Where do you stand in relation to solitude, boredom, and relation to solitude, boredom, and relation to solitude, boredom, and randomness? randomness? randomness? >> Yes, I'm a big fan of all three of >> Yes, I'm a big fan of all three of >> Yes, I'm a big fan of all three of those. I I Yeah, I think boredom, those. I I Yeah, I think boredom, those. I I Yeah, I think boredom, solitude, um you know, randomness, solitude, um you know, randomness, solitude, um you know, randomness, serendipity, unplanned serendipity, unplanned serendipity, unplanned uh encounters in life are where the uh encounters in life are where the uh encounters in life are where the magic happens, honestly. Like um if we magic happens, honestly. Like um if we magic happens, honestly. Like um if we reduced the world entirely to what we reduced the world entirely to what we reduced the world entirely to what we could plan and control, what we could could plan and control, what we could could plan and control, what we could optimize, what we could make more optimize, what we could make more optimize, what we could make more predictable by algorithms, more predictable by algorithms, more predictable by algorithms, more efficient, we would lose uh a meaningful efficient, we would lose uh a meaningful efficient, we would lose uh a meaningful connection to the world, we would lose connection to the world, we would lose connection to the world, we would lose uh what Hartmoot Rosa calls resonance. uh what Hartmoot Rosa calls resonance. uh what Hartmoot Rosa calls resonance. Um you know, he talks about resonance as Um you know, he talks about resonance as Um you know, he talks about resonance as this thing that you cannot engineer. It this thing that you cannot engineer. It this thing that you cannot engineer. It is unengineerable. Um, and that goes is unengineerable. Um, and that goes is unengineerable. Um, and that goes against the logic of modernity and and against the logic of modernity and and against the logic of modernity and and in the AI age, you know, it's really in the AI age, you know, it's really in the AI age, you know, it's really going to go against the logic of AI, going to go against the logic of AI, going to go against the logic of AI, which is optimize everything, reduce which is optimize everything, reduce which is optimize everything, reduce inefficiencies, inefficiencies, inefficiencies, but especially in the arts, you know, I but especially in the arts, you know, I but especially in the arts, you know, I think that the magic happens in those think that the magic happens in those think that the magic happens in those unplanned encounters where you can, if unplanned encounters where you can, if unplanned encounters where you can, if you're a filmmaker, for example, you can you're a filmmaker, for example, you can you're a filmmaker, for example, you can like micromanage every little detail.

like micromanage every little detail. like micromanage every little detail. you can kind of plan everything that you you can kind of plan everything that you you can kind of plan everything that you can plan, but there's like X factors can plan, but there's like X factors can plan, but there's like X factors that you can just not control. You know, that you can just not control. You know, that you can just not control. You know, the weather when you're out doing a the weather when you're out doing a the weather when you're out doing a shoot outside or a performance dynamic shoot outside or a performance dynamic shoot outside or a performance dynamic of one of your actors that like is even of one of your actors that like is even of one of your actors that like is even greater than you could have ever greater than you could have ever greater than you could have ever scripted or planned. That's where the scripted or planned. That's where the scripted or planned. That's where the the the profound beauty in life happens. the the profound beauty in life happens. the the profound beauty in life happens. The serendipity, the kind of randomness. The serendipity, the kind of randomness. The serendipity, the kind of randomness. Um my favorite filmmaker uh is a guy Um my favorite filmmaker uh is a guy Um my favorite filmmaker uh is a guy named Terrence Malik and his approach to named Terrence Malik and his approach to named Terrence Malik and his approach to film making. I feel like Hartmoot Rosa film making. I feel like Hartmoot Rosa film making. I feel like Hartmoot Rosa must like Terrence Malik films because must like Terrence Malik films because must like Terrence Malik films because basically he just turns on his camera, basically he just turns on his camera, basically he just turns on his camera, you know, shoots for hours and hours and you know, shoots for hours and hours and you know, shoots for hours and hours and hours in nature. He lets his actors hours in nature. He lets his actors hours in nature. He lets his actors improvise. So there's an openness to improvise. So there's an openness to improvise. So there's an openness to that kind of holy moment of encounter that kind of holy moment of encounter that kind of holy moment of encounter where yes, he he plans a little bit. He where yes, he he plans a little bit. He where yes, he he plans a little bit. He controls some aspects, but he likes controls some aspects, but he likes controls some aspects, but he likes natural lighting. He likes if there's a natural lighting. He likes if there's a natural lighting. He likes if there's a bird song that he likes, he'll like turn bird song that he likes, he'll like turn bird song that he likes, he'll like turn on the audio and record it. If there's a on the audio and record it. If there's a on the audio and record it. If there's a thunderstorm, you know, he'll like thunderstorm, you know, he'll like thunderstorm, you know, he'll like direct his camera crew like go capture direct his camera crew like go capture direct his camera crew like go capture that thunderstorm. And it it usually that thunderstorm. And it it usually that thunderstorm. And it it usually winds its way into the final product.

winds its way into the final product. winds its way into the final product. And and he's also a filmmaker, by the And and he's also a filmmaker, by the And and he's also a filmmaker, by the way, who who takes his time, right? He's way, who who takes his time, right? He's way, who who takes his time, right? He's he's been editing his new movie, which he's been editing his new movie, which he's been editing his new movie, which is a Jesus uh Bible movie called The Way is a Jesus uh Bible movie called The Way is a Jesus uh Bible movie called The Way of the Wind. He shot that film in 2019, of the Wind. He shot that film in 2019, of the Wind. He shot that film in 2019, and you know, 7 years later, he's still and you know, 7 years later, he's still and you know, 7 years later, he's still working on it, editing and and kind of working on it, editing and and kind of working on it, editing and and kind of fine-tuning that. That defies the logic fine-tuning that. That defies the logic fine-tuning that. That defies the logic of the AI optimize a you know, of the AI optimize a you know, of the AI optimize a you know, optimization like everything should be optimization like everything should be optimization like everything should be done fast, everything should be done done fast, everything should be done done fast, everything should be done efficiently, efficiently, efficiently, but that's not the logic of beauty. And but that's not the logic of beauty. And but that's not the logic of beauty. And you know even even God as a creator you you know even even God as a creator you you know even even God as a creator you know I think it's good to reflect on how know I think it's good to reflect on how know I think it's good to reflect on how the world he created doesn't always the world he created doesn't always the world he created doesn't always operate on the logic of hyperefficiency. operate on the logic of hyperefficiency. operate on the logic of hyperefficiency. He created us to have to sleep a third He created us to have to sleep a third He created us to have to sleep a third of our lives for example. You know what of our lives for example. You know what of our lives for example. You know what does that there's a there's a meaning to does that there's a there's a meaning to does that there's a there's a meaning to that. Um he he created like thousands of that. Um he he created like thousands of that. Um he he created like thousands of species of hummingbirds. You know that species of hummingbirds. You know that species of hummingbirds. You know that seems gratuitous to me. That that seems seems gratuitous to me. That that seems seems gratuitous to me. That that seems like unnecessary. like he's not a god of like unnecessary. like he's not a god of like unnecessary. like he's not a god of brute efficiency and the Bible his brute efficiency and the Bible his brute efficiency and the Bible his chosen mode of re revealing himself to chosen mode of re revealing himself to chosen mode of re revealing himself to us is not a super efficient document us is not a super efficient document us is not a super efficient document right there's you know he could have right there's you know he could have right there's you know he could have revealed himself in like 10,000 bullet revealed himself in like 10,000 bullet revealed himself in like 10,000 bullet points like a he he delivers this manual points like a he he delivers this manual points like a he he delivers this manual of like here are 10,000 takeaways of like here are 10,000 takeaways of like here are 10,000 takeaways instead he he he like assembled this instead he he he like assembled this instead he he he like assembled this book of strange genres and apocalyptic book of strange genres and apocalyptic book of strange genres and apocalyptic genre genre and poetry and you know it's

genre genre and poetry and you know it's genre genre and poetry and you know it's just a confounding document if you look just a confounding document if you look just a confounding document if you look at life through the lens of efficiency at life through the lens of efficiency at life through the lens of efficiency and like getting from getting the the and like getting from getting the the and like getting from getting the the the nugget the takeaway in in as the nugget the takeaway in in as the nugget the takeaway in in as efficient a manner as possible. Um, so efficient a manner as possible. Um, so efficient a manner as possible. Um, so yeah, I think all of that to say, Chris, yeah, I think all of that to say, Chris, yeah, I think all of that to say, Chris, I think boredom and solitude and I think boredom and solitude and I think boredom and solitude and randomness are great things and we would randomness are great things and we would randomness are great things and we would do well to practice them in our lives do well to practice them in our lives do well to practice them in our lives instead of just using our phone, using instead of just using our phone, using instead of just using our phone, using AI to kind of optimize every spare AI to kind of optimize every spare AI to kind of optimize every spare moment of life. Having kind of open moment of life. Having kind of open moment of life. Having kind of open space, breathing room in life to space, breathing room in life to space, breathing room in life to encounter this gratuitously made world encounter this gratuitously made world encounter this gratuitously made world that God has given us um I think is a that God has given us um I think is a that God has given us um I think is a good thing for our spiritual health and good thing for our spiritual health and good thing for our spiritual health and for anything of substance that we might for anything of substance that we might for anything of substance that we might want to contribute as creators, as want to contribute as creators, as want to contribute as creators, as thinkers. You know, we need that thinkers. You know, we need that thinkers. You know, we need that meandering time. We need daydreaming. we meandering time. We need daydreaming. we meandering time. We need daydreaming. we need to have we need to be bored so that need to have we need to be bored so that need to have we need to be bored so that those epiphies can actually have a those epiphies can actually have a those epiphies can actually have a chance to bubble up inside of us.

chance to bubble up inside of us. chance to bubble up inside of us. >> And the fact that we don't intuitively >> And the fact that we don't intuitively >> And the fact that we don't intuitively think that the fact that as I look at my think that the fact that as I look at my think that the fact that as I look at my own life, I I go to lengths to engineer own life, I I go to lengths to engineer own life, I I go to lengths to engineer boredom and probably solitude out of it boredom and probably solitude out of it boredom and probably solitude out of it as well. That is a precious insight into as well. That is a precious insight into as well. That is a precious insight into ourselves, isn't it? Because it it's ourselves, isn't it? Because it it's ourselves, isn't it? Because it it's showing us a a way in which we're out of showing us a a way in which we're out of showing us a a way in which we're out of line with God and the grain of the line with God and the grain of the line with God and the grain of the universe. I I I love how you anchored universe. I I I love how you anchored universe. I I I love how you anchored that answer in. Hold on. Look at what that answer in. Hold on. Look at what that answer in. Hold on. Look at what how God does things. Look look at the how God does things. Look look at the how God does things. Look look at the Bible he's given us. It's not efficient. Bible he's given us. It's not efficient. Bible he's given us. It's not efficient. Look at the hummingbirds. They're not Look at the hummingbirds. They're not Look at the hummingbirds. They're not efficient. And so as we realize, efficient. And so as we realize, efficient. And so as we realize, you know, I I'm slightly uncomfortable you know, I I'm slightly uncomfortable you know, I I'm slightly uncomfortable with boredom or I don't like randomness. with boredom or I don't like randomness. with boredom or I don't like randomness. That's an opportunity for us to grow and That's an opportunity for us to grow and That's an opportunity for us to grow and to to get in tune with the way the to to get in tune with the way the to to get in tune with the way the universe actually is, which is the the universe actually is, which is the the universe actually is, which is the the universe created by God and to embrace universe created by God and to embrace universe created by God and to embrace these things because you know by all these things because you know by all these things because you know by all appearances it looks as though God appearances it looks as though God appearances it looks as though God embases these things in in his creation embases these things in in his creation embases these things in in his creation and in his word as well. So thank you and in his word as well. So thank you and in his word as well. So thank you for anchoring that back uh into uh the for anchoring that back uh into uh the for anchoring that back uh into uh the two books of God's word and God's world.

two books of God's word and God's world. two books of God's word and God's world. [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] A lot of people today say that we're A lot of people today say that we're A lot of people today say that we're living in this this thing that they call living in this this thing that they call living in this this thing that they call an attention economy. There's a war for an attention economy. There's a war for an attention economy. There's a war for our attention. Um, our attention. Um, our attention. Um, and I'd love you to think out loud about and I'd love you to think out loud about and I'd love you to think out loud about how Christians should relate to that how Christians should relate to that how Christians should relate to that idea in particular. So we we're faced idea in particular. So we we're faced idea in particular. So we we're faced with this fire hose of AI content, you with this fire hose of AI content, you with this fire hose of AI content, you know, all its slop, all its deep fakes, know, all its slop, all its deep fakes, know, all its slop, all its deep fakes, all it it's endless repetition, and that all it it's endless repetition, and that all it it's endless repetition, and that is shaping the way that we see the is shaping the way that we see the is shaping the way that we see the world. It's not just content on our world. It's not just content on our world. It's not just content on our screens. It's it's forming us as screens. It's it's forming us as screens. It's it's forming us as individuals. individuals. individuals. How how do you think that is forming us? How how do you think that is forming us? How how do you think that is forming us? >> And how is the Bible seeking to form our >> And how is the Bible seeking to form our >> And how is the Bible seeking to form our attention differently? What are the two attention differently? What are the two attention differently? What are the two sort of paradigms of attention um that sort of paradigms of attention um that sort of paradigms of attention um that that we get on the one hand from AI and that we get on the one hand from AI and that we get on the one hand from AI and on the other hand from from dwelling on the other hand from from dwelling on the other hand from from dwelling deeply in the Bible? deeply in the Bible? deeply in the Bible? >> Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I >> Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I >> Yeah, it's a great question. You know, I think part of the answer resides in the think part of the answer resides in the think part of the answer resides in the name, the attention economy. You know, name, the attention economy. You know, name, the attention economy. You know, it implies money is at stake. And so a a it implies money is at stake. And so a a it implies money is at stake. And so a a key thing for us to recognize that has key thing for us to recognize that has key thing for us to recognize that has spiritual um significance is so much of spiritual um significance is so much of spiritual um significance is so much of what we open on our phone or scroll what we open on our phone or scroll what we open on our phone or scroll across is simply across is simply across is simply an attempt to commandeer our attention an attempt to commandeer our attention an attempt to commandeer our attention to make money for someone, right? like to make money for someone, right? like to make money for someone, right? like the more addicted smartphone users, AI the more addicted smartphone users, AI the more addicted smartphone users, AI users can get to these devices, to these users can get to these devices, to these users can get to these devices, to these programs, to these subscription

programs, to these subscription programs, to these subscription services, services, services, the more money is is being made. Um, and the more money is is being made. Um, and the more money is is being made. Um, and so we have to realize and be honest so we have to realize and be honest so we have to realize and be honest about the fact that we are, you know, about the fact that we are, you know, about the fact that we are, you know, this is not just about us being this is not just about us being this is not just about us being entertained or or served something entertained or or served something entertained or or served something valuable. It's it's really about um you valuable. It's it's really about um you valuable. It's it's really about um you know our attention is being commandeered know our attention is being commandeered know our attention is being commandeered for these companies to to make money and for these companies to to make money and for these companies to to make money and when money is at stake there's a lot of when money is at stake there's a lot of when money is at stake there's a lot of you know in in incentive to to create you know in in incentive to to create you know in in incentive to to create things that are highly addictive and um things that are highly addictive and um things that are highly addictive and um you know AI is essentially just uh the you know AI is essentially just uh the you know AI is essentially just uh the next level of sophistication with next level of sophistication with next level of sophistication with algorithms in terms of figuring you out algorithms in terms of figuring you out algorithms in terms of figuring you out as a consumer and figuring out what your as a consumer and figuring out what your as a consumer and figuring out what your what your weak weak areas are like what what your weak weak areas are like what what your weak weak areas are like what what do you res have a hard time what do you res have a hard time what do you res have a hard time resisting when a certain sort of image resisting when a certain sort of image resisting when a certain sort of image or a certain sort of content comes or a certain sort of content comes or a certain sort of content comes across your eyeballs? You know, what do across your eyeballs? You know, what do across your eyeballs? You know, what do you have a hard time resisting? And and you have a hard time resisting? And and you have a hard time resisting? And and of course there's huge spiritual um side of course there's huge spiritual um side of course there's huge spiritual um side effects there because attention is a effects there because attention is a effects there because attention is a spiritual currency. It's where we give spiritual currency. It's where we give spiritual currency. It's where we give our attention is where our loves go, our attention is where our loves go, our attention is where our loves go, right? the desires of our heart follow right? the desires of our heart follow right? the desires of our heart follow the direction of our attention. And um the direction of our attention. And um the direction of our attention. And um one thing that I really worry about in one thing that I really worry about in one thing that I really worry about in the smartphone age and I've already the smartphone age and I've already the smartphone age and I've already written a lot about this is just so much written a lot about this is just so much written a lot about this is just so much of our attention is being commandeered of our attention is being commandeered of our attention is being commandeered that we have precious little of it left that we have precious little of it left that we have precious little of it left to give to God and to to to give our

to give to God and to to to give our to give to God and to to to give our attention to his word to give our attention to his word to give our attention to his word to give our attention to him in prayer. You know, attention to him in prayer. You know, attention to him in prayer. You know, it's hard for people in the digital age it's hard for people in the digital age it's hard for people in the digital age to like carve out any amount of time to to like carve out any amount of time to to like carve out any amount of time to be unmediated for five minutes to just be unmediated for five minutes to just be unmediated for five minutes to just be still and know that he is God and to be still and know that he is God and to be still and know that he is God and to to sit with him in quietness and to sit to sit with him in quietness and to sit to sit with him in quietness and to sit with his word and to contemplate it. Um, with his word and to contemplate it. Um, with his word and to contemplate it. Um, and I'm speaking, you know, for myself and I'm speaking, you know, for myself and I'm speaking, you know, for myself as as well. You know, I struggle with as as well. You know, I struggle with as as well. You know, I struggle with this too. So, I think there's huge this too. So, I think there's huge this too. So, I think there's huge spiritual um issues going on in the spiritual um issues going on in the spiritual um issues going on in the attention economy. Uh and I think a big attention economy. Uh and I think a big attention economy. Uh and I think a big step that a big first step we can all step that a big first step we can all step that a big first step we can all make um and this is getting into kind of make um and this is getting into kind of make um and this is getting into kind of practices and some advice that I often practices and some advice that I often practices and some advice that I often give is carve out some unmediated time give is carve out some unmediated time give is carve out some unmediated time in your life. You know where your phone in your life. You know where your phone in your life. You know where your phone free, wear your computer free, wear your free, wear your computer free, wear your free, wear your computer free, wear your AI free um and have it be designated for AI free um and have it be designated for AI free um and have it be designated for that spiritual attention that you need that spiritual attention that you need that spiritual attention that you need to give to your God, to the creator. Um to give to your God, to the creator. Um to give to your God, to the creator. Um sometimes I do this on walks. I I like sometimes I do this on walks. I I like sometimes I do this on walks. I I like to kind of hit two birds with one stone to kind of hit two birds with one stone to kind of hit two birds with one stone in the sense of like it's good to go in the sense of like it's good to go in the sense of like it's good to go outside and enjoy the beauty of God's outside and enjoy the beauty of God's outside and enjoy the beauty of God's creation, but I often feel like it's creation, but I often feel like it's creation, but I often feel like it's easier to commune with him and to pray easier to commune with him and to pray easier to commune with him and to pray and to express gratitude to him when I'm and to express gratitude to him when I'm and to express gratitude to him when I'm out in his creation. Um, so going on out in his creation. Um, so going on out in his creation. Um, so going on phone free walks is like a practice that phone free walks is like a practice that phone free walks is like a practice that I try to do. Um, so it's it's some I try to do. Um, so it's it's some I try to do. Um, so it's it's some measure of unmediated time in my life measure of unmediated time in my life measure of unmediated time in my life that um I can kind of get intentionally

that um I can kind of get intentionally that um I can kind of get intentionally focus my attention on God. And then also focus my attention on God. And then also focus my attention on God. And then also just like um for me I try to do the just like um for me I try to do the just like um for me I try to do the first like a half hour of every day when first like a half hour of every day when first like a half hour of every day when I wake up I try to be phone free and I wake up I try to be phone free and I wake up I try to be phone free and device free and use that time to read my device free and use that time to read my device free and use that time to read my Bible or pray. Um for some people it Bible or pray. Um for some people it Bible or pray. Um for some people it might be the last hour of each day. might be the last hour of each day. might be the last hour of each day. That's not a bad idea. You know, there's That's not a bad idea. You know, there's That's not a bad idea. You know, there's studies about how like looking at your studies about how like looking at your studies about how like looking at your phone right before sleep isn't always phone right before sleep isn't always phone right before sleep isn't always the best thing anyway. So, you probably the best thing anyway. So, you probably the best thing anyway. So, you probably will sleep better if you decide to go will sleep better if you decide to go will sleep better if you decide to go analog in that final stretch of your analog in that final stretch of your analog in that final stretch of your day. But whatever it is, I think for our day. But whatever it is, I think for our day. But whatever it is, I think for our spiritual vitality, we just have to spiritual vitality, we just have to spiritual vitality, we just have to fight the impulse to fill every moment fight the impulse to fill every moment fight the impulse to fill every moment of our lives with content. um even good of our lives with content. um even good of our lives with content. um even good content, even like great podcasts like content, even like great podcasts like content, even like great podcasts like Silicone Spirituality is like if I go on Silicone Spirituality is like if I go on Silicone Spirituality is like if I go on walks and I drive all of my if all of my walks and I drive all of my if all of my walks and I drive all of my if all of my intermediate time in life like going intermediate time in life like going intermediate time in life like going from point A to point B or like waiting from point A to point B or like waiting from point A to point B or like waiting at the bus station for the bus if I just at the bus station for the bus if I just at the bus station for the bus if I just if my instinct is just always to fill it if my instinct is just always to fill it if my instinct is just always to fill it with more media, whether a podcast or an with more media, whether a podcast or an with more media, whether a podcast or an audio book or scrolling on my phone for audio book or scrolling on my phone for audio book or scrolling on my phone for an article, like even if it's the best an article, like even if it's the best an article, like even if it's the best content in the world, like even if It's content in the world, like even if It's content in the world, like even if It's like nutritious content. It's still not like nutritious content. It's still not like nutritious content. It's still not going to do good things for my soul going to do good things for my soul going to do good things for my soul because it's eradicating that open because it's eradicating that open because it's eradicating that open space, right? That what we were just space, right? That what we were just space, right? That what we were just talking about that boredom, that talking about that boredom, that talking about that boredom, that solitude that is so important for our solitude that is so important for our solitude that is so important for our spiritual health to flourish um within spiritual health to flourish um within spiritual health to flourish um within that kind of breathing room space. So

that kind of breathing room space. So that kind of breathing room space. So yeah, so find unmediated time in your yeah, so find unmediated time in your yeah, so find unmediated time in your day. That's my, you know, that's my day. That's my, you know, that's my day. That's my, you know, that's my quick AI summary version of what I just quick AI summary version of what I just quick AI summary version of what I just said. [laughter] said. [laughter] said. [laughter] And And And I I love the way you talk about being I I love the way you talk about being I I love the way you talk about being intentional about that because it it intentional about that because it it intentional about that because it it it's the case, isn't it, that if we're it's the case, isn't it, that if we're it's the case, isn't it, that if we're not focused on making that happen, the not focused on making that happen, the not focused on making that happen, the the drift is always towards filling our the drift is always towards filling our the drift is always towards filling our life with content. life with content. life with content. >> For sure. And I I've heard you say >> For sure. And I I've heard you say >> For sure. And I I've heard you say elsewhere, and I found this so powerful elsewhere, and I found this so powerful elsewhere, and I found this so powerful when you said it, that these AI when you said it, that these AI when you said it, that these AI companies companies companies employ rooms full of behavioral employ rooms full of behavioral employ rooms full of behavioral psychologists with PhDs to work on psychologists with PhDs to work on psychologists with PhDs to work on hacking our attention. Like their job is hacking our attention. Like their job is hacking our attention. Like their job is to get us on the platform for longer and to get us on the platform for longer and to get us on the platform for longer and longer and longer because then they make longer and longer because then they make longer and longer because then they make more money. And they're very, very good more money. And they're very, very good more money. And they're very, very good at it. They have PhDs in this. And at it. They have PhDs in this. And at it. They have PhDs in this. And therefore, when we do fill our lives therefore, when we do fill our lives therefore, when we do fill our lives with content, I think it's worth us with content, I think it's worth us with content, I think it's worth us remembering like that's not simply my remembering like that's not simply my remembering like that's not simply my inputs. I haven't decided to do that. inputs. I haven't decided to do that. inputs. I haven't decided to do that. I'm being hacked by very clever people I'm being hacked by very clever people I'm being hacked by very clever people >> for the purposes of earning money for a >> for the purposes of earning money for a >> for the purposes of earning money for a corporation that I don't have a a deep corporation that I don't have a a deep corporation that I don't have a a deep interest in. Uh and so we often think, interest in. Uh and so we often think, interest in. Uh and so we often think, don't we, that the way we use our our don't we, that the way we use our our don't we, that the way we use our our phones or whatever, that's a very phones or whatever, that's a very phones or whatever, that's a very private thing to me. But it's worth private thing to me. But it's worth private thing to me. But it's worth being reminded as Christians that's not being reminded as Christians that's not being reminded as Christians that's not simply my choices. I'm being played simply my choices. I'm being played simply my choices. I'm being played often when I'm spending all this time uh often when I'm spending all this time uh often when I'm spending all this time uh on social media. Um and there's a whole

on social media. Um and there's a whole on social media. Um and there's a whole infrastructure. There's a whole industry infrastructure. There's a whole industry infrastructure. There's a whole industry >> that the aim of which is playing me >> that the aim of which is playing me >> that the aim of which is playing me effectively. effectively. effectively. >> Yeah. And I think there there's at least >> Yeah. And I think there there's at least >> Yeah. And I think there there's at least one good thing about it, which is that one good thing about it, which is that one good thing about it, which is that it can be a it can be a good mirror to it can be a it can be a good mirror to it can be a it can be a good mirror to your own kind of uh sinful tendencies. your own kind of uh sinful tendencies. your own kind of uh sinful tendencies. You know, the algorithm is so good and You know, the algorithm is so good and You know, the algorithm is so good and these these like sophisticated companies these these like sophisticated companies these these like sophisticated companies that learn us so well. Um you know, it that learn us so well. Um you know, it that learn us so well. Um you know, it can actually be pretty eye opening and a can actually be pretty eye opening and a can actually be pretty eye opening and a wakeup call when you start to see, oh, wakeup call when you start to see, oh, wakeup call when you start to see, oh, this is what I've clicked on a lot this is what I've clicked on a lot this is what I've clicked on a lot before clearly because they've like before clearly because they've like before clearly because they've like they've started feeding me more of this. they've started feeding me more of this. they've started feeding me more of this. So you know that there's there's aspects So you know that there's there's aspects So you know that there's there's aspects of our disciplehip that I think can be of our disciplehip that I think can be of our disciplehip that I think can be redeemed through these technologies um redeemed through these technologies um redeemed through these technologies um where you can kind of like be honest where you can kind of like be honest where you can kind of like be honest with yourself uh like oh this is not with yourself uh like oh this is not with yourself uh like oh this is not great you know that like when I open great you know that like when I open great you know that like when I open when I open my social media feeds like when I open my social media feeds like when I open my social media feeds like this is what I'm getting. Um so this is what I'm getting. Um so this is what I'm getting. Um so sometimes uh even black mirrors you know sometimes uh even black mirrors you know sometimes uh even black mirrors you know even the dark mirrors can be helpful for even the dark mirrors can be helpful for even the dark mirrors can be helpful for our sanctification.

our sanctification. our sanctification. >> I love that. I'd never thought of it >> I love that. I'd never thought of it >> I love that. I'd never thought of it that way before. The the algorithm that way before. The the algorithm that way before. The the algorithm doesn't lie. It feeds you what you have doesn't lie. It feeds you what you have doesn't lie. It feeds you what you have actually clicked on rather than what you actually clicked on rather than what you actually clicked on rather than what you would like to think you have clicked on. would like to think you have clicked on. would like to think you have clicked on. >> Right. Right. We would all kind of like >> Right. Right. We would all kind of like >> Right. Right. We would all kind of like like if our feeds looked maybe a little like if our feeds looked maybe a little like if our feeds looked maybe a little different than they do. different than they do. different than they do. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Um, I'd ask each guest on the podcast to Um, I'd ask each guest on the podcast to Um, I'd ask each guest on the podcast to bring along one or two uh Bible passages bring along one or two uh Bible passages bring along one or two uh Bible passages that have really helped you to think that have really helped you to think that have really helped you to think about AI and to understand humanity in about AI and to understand humanity in about AI and to understand humanity in relation to it. Um, Brett, what passages relation to it. Um, Brett, what passages relation to it. Um, Brett, what passages or what verses have most helped you in or what verses have most helped you in or what verses have most helped you in relation to your reflections on AI? relation to your reflections on AI? relation to your reflections on AI? >> Yeah, one one would be James 15. Um, if >> Yeah, one one would be James 15. Um, if >> Yeah, one one would be James 15. Um, if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask God who gives generously. Um, and it goes who gives generously. Um, and it goes who gives generously. Um, and it goes back to just the important distinction back to just the important distinction back to just the important distinction between what wisdom is and in between what wisdom is and in between what wisdom is and in relationship to knowledge and relationship to knowledge and relationship to knowledge and information. AI can give information and information. AI can give information and information. AI can give information and knowledge really well. But if what we knowledge really well. But if what we knowledge really well. But if what we are seeking is wisdom and and we should are seeking is wisdom and and we should are seeking is wisdom and and we should be seeking wisdom, we have to remember be seeking wisdom, we have to remember be seeking wisdom, we have to remember that AI is not great for that. And we that AI is not great for that. And we that AI is not great for that. And we need to ask God, right? He is the giver need to ask God, right? He is the giver need to ask God, right? He is the giver of wisdom. Pray. Pray for that. Seek his of wisdom. Pray. Pray for that. Seek his of wisdom. Pray. Pray for that. Seek his presence. Um I think when it comes to presence. Um I think when it comes to presence. Um I think when it comes to the church and disciplehip with AI, it the church and disciplehip with AI, it the church and disciplehip with AI, it might become tempting for people for might become tempting for people for might become tempting for people for example to ask AI, ask Chad GPT like example to ask AI, ask Chad GPT like example to ask AI, ask Chad GPT like questions they should be asking their questions they should be asking their questions they should be asking their pastor or questions they should be

pastor or questions they should be pastor or questions they should be praying about and wrestling with God praying about and wrestling with God praying about and wrestling with God about. it might it might seem easier to about. it might it might seem easier to about. it might it might seem easier to just like get that quick answer like hey just like get that quick answer like hey just like get that quick answer like hey chat GBT what do you think about like chat GBT what do you think about like chat GBT what do you think about like the wisdom of me you know in this the wisdom of me you know in this the wisdom of me you know in this romantic relationship that I'm in like romantic relationship that I'm in like romantic relationship that I'm in like probably it would be better to not go to probably it would be better to not go to probably it would be better to not go to chat GPT for those questions. So, I chat GPT for those questions. So, I chat GPT for those questions. So, I think James 15 is just a good reminder think James 15 is just a good reminder think James 15 is just a good reminder that like wisdom is from above, right? that like wisdom is from above, right? that like wisdom is from above, right? It it is a god uh arbitrated, god-given It it is a god uh arbitrated, god-given It it is a god uh arbitrated, god-given thing. And as AI kind of simulates thing. And as AI kind of simulates thing. And as AI kind of simulates wisdom and starts to come across as this wisdom and starts to come across as this wisdom and starts to come across as this ultimate sage in in our world where the ultimate sage in in our world where the ultimate sage in in our world where the sum of all human knowledge is like what sum of all human knowledge is like what sum of all human knowledge is like what it kind of conjures up in an instant. We it kind of conjures up in an instant. We it kind of conjures up in an instant. We just have to remember you know what just have to remember you know what just have to remember you know what wisdom uh really is. Um, and then I I wisdom uh really is. Um, and then I I wisdom uh really is. Um, and then I I think the other the other verse that has think the other the other verse that has think the other the other verse that has been helpful similar to the wisdom been helpful similar to the wisdom been helpful similar to the wisdom conversation is just I've already conversation is just I've already conversation is just I've already referenced it, but the the verses like referenced it, but the the verses like referenced it, but the the verses like Proverbs 1:7 and 9:10, the fear of the Proverbs 1:7 and 9:10, the fear of the Proverbs 1:7 and 9:10, the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. You Lord is the beginning of wisdom. You Lord is the beginning of wisdom. You know, the the beginning of wisdom is not know, the the beginning of wisdom is not know, the the beginning of wisdom is not the summation of all human knowledge. If the summation of all human knowledge. If the summation of all human knowledge. If that were true, then go NHGBT would be a that were true, then go NHGBT would be a that were true, then go NHGBT would be a great avenue for becoming wise because great avenue for becoming wise because great avenue for becoming wise because it has the sum of all human knowledge.

it has the sum of all human knowledge. it has the sum of all human knowledge. But the scriptures tell us that wisdom But the scriptures tell us that wisdom But the scriptures tell us that wisdom begins with a relationship and a posture begins with a relationship and a posture begins with a relationship and a posture before our creator of humility and before our creator of humility and before our creator of humility and deference and worship and awe, you know, deference and worship and awe, you know, deference and worship and awe, you know, and fear, you know, these are emotions. and fear, you know, these are emotions. and fear, you know, these are emotions. These are affective dynamics um that are These are affective dynamics um that are These are affective dynamics um that are important for us if we want to become important for us if we want to become important for us if we want to become wise. And I think in the AI age, we just wise. And I think in the AI age, we just wise. And I think in the AI age, we just need to remember that like um we we need to remember that like um we we need to remember that like um we we don't want to um bypass God in our don't want to um bypass God in our don't want to um bypass God in our desire to be desire to be desire to be knowledgeable and infinitely um capable. knowledgeable and infinitely um capable. knowledgeable and infinitely um capable. That's actually what Adam and Eve tried That's actually what Adam and Eve tried That's actually what Adam and Eve tried to do in the garden, right? They to do in the garden, right? They to do in the garden, right? They bypassed God in their desire to become bypassed God in their desire to become bypassed God in their desire to become godlike godlike godlike in in terms of omniscience. Um, AI, I in in terms of omniscience. Um, AI, I in in terms of omniscience. Um, AI, I think, dangles that forbidden fruit in think, dangles that forbidden fruit in think, dangles that forbidden fruit in front of us in an eerily similar way. front of us in an eerily similar way. front of us in an eerily similar way. You know, I've written about this You know, I've written about this You know, I've written about this before, but in in a sense, contemporary before, but in in a sense, contemporary before, but in in a sense, contemporary digital technology approximates digital technology approximates digital technology approximates omniscience, omnipresence in terms of omniscience, omnipresence in terms of omniscience, omnipresence in terms of eradicating spatial limitations and eradicating spatial limitations and eradicating spatial limitations and omnipotence, right? Like the smartphone, omnipotence, right? Like the smartphone, omnipotence, right? Like the smartphone, there's an app for that. It's about there's an app for that. It's about there's an app for that. It's about having the power to do anything in your having the power to do anything in your having the power to do anything in your fingertips, right? And AI is only going fingertips, right? And AI is only going fingertips, right? And AI is only going to become a more exaggerated to become a more exaggerated to become a more exaggerated sense of that. Um, but but true wisdom sense of that. Um, but but true wisdom sense of that. Um, but but true wisdom is knowing that's folly to try to like is knowing that's folly to try to like is knowing that's folly to try to like bypass God on my own path to on

bypass God on my own path to on bypass God on my own path to on missions. Omnipotence, omnipresence is missions. Omnipotence, omnipresence is missions. Omnipotence, omnipresence is just a path to destruction. And so um just a path to destruction. And so um just a path to destruction. And so um better to have my right posture of of better to have my right posture of of better to have my right posture of of reverent fear before the almighty God reverent fear before the almighty God reverent fear before the almighty God and and uh pursue knowledge as a way to and and uh pursue knowledge as a way to and and uh pursue knowledge as a way to glorify him uh not as a way to um glorify him uh not as a way to um glorify him uh not as a way to um glorify myself. Knowledge is part of a glorify myself. Knowledge is part of a glorify myself. Knowledge is part of a relationship. It's not it's not an end relationship. It's not it's not an end relationship. It's not it's not an end in itself. It's a means of of worshiping in itself. It's a means of of worshiping in itself. It's a means of of worshiping God. That's such a a beautiful and such God. That's such a a beautiful and such God. That's such a a beautiful and such a a challenging and true thought. Um a a challenging and true thought. Um a a challenging and true thought. Um thank you. Um, Brett, you review movies thank you. Um, Brett, you review movies thank you. Um, Brett, you review movies and uh series for TGC and and for other and uh series for TGC and and for other and uh series for TGC and and for other outlets as well. Uh, and I I don't want outlets as well. Uh, and I I don't want outlets as well. Uh, and I I don't want to let you go without having asked you to let you go without having asked you to let you go without having asked you what are the movies we might watch or what are the movies we might watch or what are the movies we might watch or the the series we might consume that the the series we might consume that the the series we might consume that that you think can best help us to that you think can best help us to that you think can best help us to understand, understand, understand, I don't know, the AI age we're living in I don't know, the AI age we're living in I don't know, the AI age we're living in or or the posture to adopt imulation to or or the posture to adopt imulation to or or the posture to adopt imulation to AI. Are there any particular movies or AI. Are there any particular movies or AI. Are there any particular movies or series that have helped you to think series that have helped you to think series that have helped you to think these things through? And um the the the these things through? And um the the the these things through? And um the the the only condition I'm putting on this only condition I'm putting on this only condition I'm putting on this question is that you're you're not question is that you're you're not question is that you're you're not allowed to mention the Terminator allowed to mention the Terminator allowed to mention the Terminator franchise.

franchise. franchise. >> Uhhuh. Yes. Um that's a great question >> Uhhuh. Yes. Um that's a great question >> Uhhuh. Yes. Um that's a great question and um I there's so many movies in my and um I there's so many movies in my and um I there's so many movies in my mind that I think of, you know, even mind that I think of, you know, even mind that I think of, you know, even like the the movie called AI that Steven like the the movie called AI that Steven like the the movie called AI that Steven Spielberg made back in 2001. Spielberg made back in 2001. Spielberg made back in 2001. um in in a lot of ways it was very um in in a lot of ways it was very um in in a lot of ways it was very preient and and kind of prophetic um 25 preient and and kind of prophetic um 25 preient and and kind of prophetic um 25 years ago um even to some of the things years ago um even to some of the things years ago um even to some of the things we've been talking about with kind of a we've been talking about with kind of a we've been talking about with kind of a can AI feel emotion that question um so can AI feel emotion that question um so can AI feel emotion that question um so the movie lands in a certain place on the movie lands in a certain place on the movie lands in a certain place on that question but uh it's it's a that question but uh it's it's a that question but uh it's it's a thoughtprovoking film that um I keep thoughtprovoking film that um I keep thoughtprovoking film that um I keep going back to when I think about AI um going back to when I think about AI um going back to when I think about AI um in in movies but a more recent example in in movies but a more recent example in in movies but a more recent example that I think is the single Best thing that I think is the single Best thing that I think is the single Best thing that I've seen um about AI is a show that I've seen um about AI is a show that I've seen um about AI is a show called Pluribus um on Apple TV. It's by called Pluribus um on Apple TV. It's by called Pluribus um on Apple TV. It's by the guy who made Breaking Bad, the TV the guy who made Breaking Bad, the TV the guy who made Breaking Bad, the TV show, Vince Gilligan. Um it is I have to show, Vince Gilligan. Um it is I have to show, Vince Gilligan. Um it is I have to give the caveat that it's kind of like a give the caveat that it's kind of like a give the caveat that it's kind of like a for mature audiences only type show at for mature audiences only type show at for mature audiences only type show at times. So, you know, use discernment um times. So, you know, use discernment um times. So, you know, use discernment um if you're a Christian. But it's it's if you're a Christian. But it's it's if you're a Christian. But it's it's kind of a dystopian movie or show, TV kind of a dystopian movie or show, TV kind of a dystopian movie or show, TV show where there's um this al it's kind show where there's um this al it's kind show where there's um this al it's kind of about a mysterious um alien infection of about a mysterious um alien infection of about a mysterious um alien infection that turns all of all of humanity into that turns all of all of humanity into that turns all of all of humanity into basically one shared consciousness, but basically one shared consciousness, but basically one shared consciousness, but it functions very much like AI in terms

it functions very much like AI in terms it functions very much like AI in terms of all the cumulative knowledge, you of all the cumulative knowledge, you of all the cumulative knowledge, you know, that exists is instantly, you know, that exists is instantly, you know, that exists is instantly, you know, can be conjured up by any given know, can be conjured up by any given know, can be conjured up by any given and human that's connected to this hive and human that's connected to this hive and human that's connected to this hive mind. But there's a few characters in mind. But there's a few characters in mind. But there's a few characters in the show who are immune to this the show who are immune to this the show who are immune to this infection. And so they're they're like infection. And so they're they're like infection. And so they're they're like old-fashioned humans in a world where old-fashioned humans in a world where old-fashioned humans in a world where now to be human is to basically function now to be human is to basically function now to be human is to basically function like machines and robots that have this like machines and robots that have this like machines and robots that have this kind of infinite knowledge and kind of infinite knowledge and kind of infinite knowledge and intelligence. So, the creator of the intelligence. So, the creator of the intelligence. So, the creator of the show has said in interviews, show has said in interviews, show has said in interviews, it's not about AI, but it certainly has it's not about AI, but it certainly has it's not about AI, but it certainly has like a lot of like pertinent uh kind of like a lot of like pertinent uh kind of like a lot of like pertinent uh kind of themes and questions for our AI age. But themes and questions for our AI age. But themes and questions for our AI age. But I have found it to be a really like I have found it to be a really like I have found it to be a really like thoughtprovoking show to to think about thoughtprovoking show to to think about thoughtprovoking show to to think about uh what AI is and what it could be. So, uh what AI is and what it could be. So, uh what AI is and what it could be. So, Plurabus is the name of that show. Plurabus is the name of that show. Plurabus is the name of that show. >> Wonderful. Thank you. Two closing >> Wonderful. Thank you. Two closing >> Wonderful. Thank you. Two closing questions. questions. questions. What's one inefficient habit that you're What's one inefficient habit that you're What's one inefficient habit that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI?

committed to keeping in the age of AI? committed to keeping in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, what's one thing And if AI is a mirror, what's one thing And if AI is a mirror, what's one thing that it's revealed to you personally uh that it's revealed to you personally uh that it's revealed to you personally uh about your own heart? about your own heart? about your own heart? Um [snorts] inefficient habits is Um [snorts] inefficient habits is Um [snorts] inefficient habits is daydreaming. Um, I'm a big fan of like daydreaming. Um, I'm a big fan of like daydreaming. Um, I'm a big fan of like just kind of sitting on a park bench just kind of sitting on a park bench just kind of sitting on a park bench without a device to look at or scroll without a device to look at or scroll without a device to look at or scroll through and just letting my mind wander. through and just letting my mind wander. through and just letting my mind wander. Um, there was an article um that Um, there was an article um that Um, there was an article um that Christine Rosen wrote. She she's the Christine Rosen wrote. She she's the Christine Rosen wrote. She she's the author of the extinction of experience. author of the extinction of experience. author of the extinction of experience. Um, just kind of the embodied experience Um, just kind of the embodied experience Um, just kind of the embodied experience as being kind of a dying art form. But as being kind of a dying art form. But as being kind of a dying art form. But she she wrote an article with the she she wrote an article with the she she wrote an article with the headline the death of daydreaming and headline the death of daydreaming and headline the death of daydreaming and she was getting at this deprivation of she was getting at this deprivation of she was getting at this deprivation of the digital age which I've alluded to the digital age which I've alluded to the digital age which I've alluded to you know several times already. But when you know several times already. But when you know several times already. But when we fill all of our time all of our open we fill all of our time all of our open we fill all of our time all of our open space with optimizable space with optimizable space with optimizable activity, you know, sending that text activity, you know, sending that text activity, you know, sending that text message, catching up on email, you know, message, catching up on email, you know, message, catching up on email, you know, watching that YouTube clip I've been watching that YouTube clip I've been watching that YouTube clip I've been meaning to watch, listening to a little meaning to watch, listening to a little meaning to watch, listening to a little bit of an audio book or a podcast. we bit of an audio book or a podcast. we bit of an audio book or a podcast. we lose something really important which is lose something really important which is lose something really important which is like what your mind does in that kind of like what your mind does in that kind of like what your mind does in that kind of open meandering space and in fact open meandering space and in fact open meandering space and in fact there's a lot of uh cognitive science there's a lot of uh cognitive science there's a lot of uh cognitive science about about this mode it's called the about about this mode it's called the about about this mode it's called the default mode network the DMN default mode network the DMN default mode network the DMN um and scientists increasingly think um and scientists increasingly think um and scientists increasingly think it's actually a really important mode of

it's actually a really important mode of it's actually a really important mode of like mental cognitive health where your like mental cognitive health where your like mental cognitive health where your brain actually has kind of space to not brain actually has kind of space to not brain actually has kind of space to not it you're not doing anything else. So it you're not doing anything else. So it you're not doing anything else. So there's no like uh task that your brain there's no like uh task that your brain there's no like uh task that your brain is tackling. It's just kind of gathering is tackling. It's just kind of gathering is tackling. It's just kind of gathering itself and creating an agenda for later itself and creating an agenda for later itself and creating an agenda for later work and processing. And it's a really work and processing. And it's a really work and processing. And it's a really important thing for our cognitive health important thing for our cognitive health important thing for our cognitive health and I would also argue for our spiritual and I would also argue for our spiritual and I would also argue for our spiritual health, right? To as Christians like to health, right? To as Christians like to health, right? To as Christians like to have open space to just like listen to have open space to just like listen to have open space to just like listen to the Lord and see see where he directs the Lord and see see where he directs the Lord and see see where he directs our thoughts. um some of my best our thoughts. um some of my best our thoughts. um some of my best thoughts in terms of what would would thoughts in terms of what would would thoughts in terms of what would would eventually become articles I want to eventually become articles I want to eventually become articles I want to write or books have come from that kind write or books have come from that kind write or books have come from that kind of daydreaming space. So that's probably of daydreaming space. So that's probably of daydreaming space. So that's probably my inefficient habit that I want to hold my inefficient habit that I want to hold my inefficient habit that I want to hold on to. Um and then um your last question on to. Um and then um your last question on to. Um and then um your last question is about what AI is it about what it is about what AI is it about what it is about what AI is it about what it mirrors to me um about my own spiritual mirrors to me um about my own spiritual mirrors to me um about my own spiritual um condition of my heart. Um, I think um condition of my heart. Um, I think um condition of my heart. Um, I think what comes to mind is what comes to mind is what comes to mind is I think the way that I overestimate my I think the way that I overestimate my I think the way that I overestimate my the value of my outputs and kind of the value of my outputs and kind of the value of my outputs and kind of overvaluing my own ability to produce overvaluing my own ability to produce overvaluing my own ability to produce something in in in my field, something something in in in my field, something something in in in my field, something written, a written output that is written, a written output that is written, a written output that is brilliant and then helpful. AI just is brilliant and then helpful. AI just is brilliant and then helpful. AI just is really humbling with that, right? cuz it really humbling with that, right? cuz it really humbling with that, right? cuz it cuz the outputs that AI can come up with cuz the outputs that AI can come up with cuz the outputs that AI can come up with in 5 seconds are often times like almost

in 5 seconds are often times like almost in 5 seconds are often times like almost as good or better than what I spend as good or better than what I spend as good or better than what I spend days, you know, crafting and writing. days, you know, crafting and writing. days, you know, crafting and writing. So, I think it's a good humbling. It's a So, I think it's a good humbling. It's a So, I think it's a good humbling. It's a it's a good reminder to myself that um it's a good reminder to myself that um it's a good reminder to myself that um again like I've been saying, it's not again like I've been saying, it's not again like I've been saying, it's not just about the end product. You know, just about the end product. You know, just about the end product. You know, being a writer and being called to this being a writer and being called to this being a writer and being called to this is as much about how God is forming me is as much about how God is forming me is as much about how God is forming me in the process of writing and how I'm in the process of writing and how I'm in the process of writing and how I'm wrestling with ideas and trying to come wrestling with ideas and trying to come wrestling with ideas and trying to come up with something that is not only up with something that is not only up with something that is not only helpful for readers but um helpful for helpful for readers but um helpful for helpful for readers but um helpful for me, you know, in my own um me, you know, in my own um me, you know, in my own um sanctification. Um so I'm trying to look sanctification. Um so I'm trying to look sanctification. Um so I'm trying to look at my vocation of writing more and more at my vocation of writing more and more at my vocation of writing more and more like that. like it's not just about the like that. like it's not just about the like that. like it's not just about the end product and what does or doesn't end product and what does or doesn't end product and what does or doesn't happen, you know, how many people read happen, you know, how many people read happen, you know, how many people read it or don't. Um it's about what what is it or don't. Um it's about what what is it or don't. Um it's about what what is God doing in this process for me. Um you God doing in this process for me. Um you God doing in this process for me. Um you know, I just finished writing my new know, I just finished writing my new know, I just finished writing my new book and I had that mentality as I was book and I had that mentality as I was book and I had that mentality as I was writing it. It's an it's a book on writing it. It's an it's a book on writing it. It's an it's a book on sleep. It's kind of about sleep in the sleep. It's kind of about sleep in the sleep. It's kind of about sleep in the age of AI and technology and the the age of AI and technology and the the age of AI and technology and the the physical limitations and inefficiencies physical limitations and inefficiencies physical limitations and inefficiencies of sleep. kind of a theological of sleep. kind of a theological of sleep. kind of a theological reflection on it. But the process of reflection on it. But the process of reflection on it. But the process of writing it has been the most fun like writing it has been the most fun like writing it has been the most fun like intellectually stere spiritually intellectually stere spiritually intellectually stere spiritually stimulating process and so I feel like stimulating process and so I feel like stimulating process and so I feel like I've already won you know before the I've already won you know before the I've already won you know before the book has come out whether or not anyone book has come out whether or not anyone book has come out whether or not anyone reads it um I hope that people read it reads it um I hope that people read it reads it um I hope that people read it but um I know that God you know called but um I know that God you know called but um I know that God you know called me to write this book he met me in the

me to write this book he met me in the me to write this book he met me in the process of writing it. It was a really process of writing it. It was a really process of writing it. It was a really enriching experience and um so yeah enriching experience and um so yeah enriching experience and um so yeah that's what I'm learning. um as a writer that's what I'm learning. um as a writer that's what I'm learning. um as a writer in the age of AI that there's something in the age of AI that there's something in the age of AI that there's something really rich and beautiful about the really rich and beautiful about the really rich and beautiful about the process um that AI can't take that away process um that AI can't take that away process um that AI can't take that away um from from me. um from from me. um from from me. >> Wonderful. Congratulations on finishing >> Wonderful. Congratulations on finishing >> Wonderful. Congratulations on finishing the new book. That is that is very the new book. That is that is very the new book. That is that is very exciting news. What is it called and exciting news. What is it called and exciting news. What is it called and when will we be able to read it? when will we be able to read it? when will we be able to read it? >> It's called The Wisdom of Sleep. So, >> It's called The Wisdom of Sleep. So, >> It's called The Wisdom of Sleep. So, kind of following off of my my wisdom kind of following off of my my wisdom kind of following off of my my wisdom pyramid book. It's Yeah, it's Yeah, it pyramid book. It's Yeah, it's Yeah, it pyramid book. It's Yeah, it's Yeah, it it is what it sounds like. It's a deep it is what it sounds like. It's a deep it is what it sounds like. It's a deep dive into the physical biological dive into the physical biological dive into the physical biological reality of sleep. Why did God make it? reality of sleep. Why did God make it? reality of sleep. Why did God make it? You know, what does it mean for us You know, what does it mean for us You know, what does it mean for us theologically? Um, it's kind of a two theologically? Um, it's kind of a two theologically? Um, it's kind of a two books approach. So, what does science books approach. So, what does science books approach. So, what does science say? What does studying nature say about say? What does studying nature say about say? What does studying nature say about sleep? And then what does scripture, you sleep? And then what does scripture, you sleep? And then what does scripture, you know, say about this topic? So, it comes know, say about this topic? So, it comes know, say about this topic? So, it comes out August 4th, so later this year. out August 4th, so later this year. out August 4th, so later this year. >> Wonderful. Thank you. And if as you're >> Wonderful. Thank you. And if as you're >> Wonderful. Thank you. And if as you're listening to this or or watching this, listening to this or or watching this, listening to this or or watching this, you you want to take these ideas further you you want to take these ideas further you you want to take these ideas further or dive deeper into them, do please join or dive deeper into them, do please join or dive deeper into them, do please join us on the Silicon Spiritualities Discord us on the Silicon Spiritualities Discord us on the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where we're going to be learning uh where we're going to be learning uh where we're going to be learning together uh how to follow Jesus in a together uh how to follow Jesus in a together uh how to follow Jesus in a text saturated world. Uh on the Discord, text saturated world. Uh on the Discord, text saturated world. Uh on the Discord, you'll find practical experiments uh you'll find practical experiments uh you'll find practical experiments uh that are linked to every episode of the that are linked to every episode of the that are linked to every episode of the show and you'll also find details of an show and you'll also find details of an show and you'll also find details of an upcoming online cohort as well. The link upcoming online cohort as well. The link upcoming online cohort as well. The link is waiting for you uh down in the show is waiting for you uh down in the show is waiting for you uh down in the show notes and we'd love to see you there. Uh

notes and we'd love to see you there. Uh notes and we'd love to see you there. Uh but for the moment uh Brett, I just want but for the moment uh Brett, I just want but for the moment uh Brett, I just want to thank you so much uh for the wisdom to thank you so much uh for the wisdom to thank you so much uh for the wisdom uh that you've shared with us, the many uh that you've shared with us, the many uh that you've shared with us, the many things you've given us to think, things you've given us to think, things you've given us to think, meditate uh and even daydream on park meditate uh and even daydream on park meditate uh and even daydream on park benches about uh over the coming days. benches about uh over the coming days. benches about uh over the coming days. Uh so thank you so much. Uh so thank you so much. Uh so thank you so much. >> Yeah. Yeah, my pleasure, Chris. It was >> Yeah. Yeah, my pleasure, Chris. It was >> Yeah. Yeah, my pleasure, Chris. It was so fun.