Union with Christ and Why It Matters (with Rory Shiner and Kyle Worley) [The Deep Dish - Ep. 42]

When I was in seminary, I had a When I was in seminary, I had a professor who every single class and he professor who every single class and he professor who every single class and he always did his arms kind [music] of like always did his arms kind [music] of like always did his arms kind [music] of like this and he was like, "It's all about this and he was like, "It's all about this and he was like, "It's all about union with Christ. It's all about union union with Christ. It's all about union union with Christ. It's all about union with Christ." And you know, it was kind with Christ." And you know, it was kind with Christ." And you know, it was kind of one of those things. I was like, of one of those things. I was like, of one of those things. I was like, "Yeah, that sounds right." But I just "Yeah, that sounds right." But I just "Yeah, that sounds right." But I just didn't really get what he meant. And didn't really get what he meant. And didn't really get what he meant. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're then all of a sudden, you know, you're then all of a sudden, you know, you're reading and of course we'll probably end reading and of course we'll probably end reading and of course we'll probably end up going to Ephesians 1, but you're up going to Ephesians 1, but you're up going to Ephesians 1, but you're reading and all of a sudden all those reading and all of a sudden all those reading and all of a sudden all those little phrases that you just mentioned, little phrases that you just mentioned, little phrases that you just mentioned, Rory, you know, in him with him, it just Rory, you know, in him with him, it just Rory, you know, in him with him, it just starts jumping off the page and you're starts jumping off the page and you're starts jumping off the page and you're like, "Oh, it really is [music] all like, "Oh, it really is [music] all like, "Oh, it really is [music] all about union with Christ. Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from Welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I am Courtney Doctor and my truths. I am Courtney Doctor and my truths. I am Courtney Doctor and my normal co-host Melissa Krueger is on a normal co-host Melissa Krueger is on a normal co-host Melissa Krueger is on a muchneeded um vacation. So, she is not muchneeded um vacation. So, she is not muchneeded um vacation. So, she is not with us today, but today I do get to with us today, but today I do get to with us today, but today I do get to talk with two actual real life friends. talk with two actual real life friends. talk with two actual real life friends. Both of them hap happen to be pastors. Both of them hap happen to be pastors. Both of them hap happen to be pastors. Both of them happen to be authors. Kyle Both of them happen to be authors. Kyle Both of them happen to be authors. Kyle Worley is the lead pastor of Mosaic Worley is the lead pastor of Mosaic Worley is the lead pastor of Mosaic Church in Rich Richardson, Texas. And Church in Rich Richardson, Texas. And Church in Rich Richardson, Texas. And Rory Shiner is the senior pastor of Rory Shiner is the senior pastor of Rory Shiner is the senior pastor of Providence Church in Perth, Australia, Providence Church in Perth, Australia, Providence Church in Perth, Australia, which I've been to. I've been able to which I've been to. I've been able to which I've been to. I've been able to worship there before and then got to go worship there before and then got to go worship there before and then got to go to lunch at Rory's house afterwards. So, to lunch at Rory's house afterwards. So, to lunch at Rory's house afterwards. So, what a treat that was. Perth is actually what a treat that was. Perth is actually what a treat that was. Perth is actually the farthest place in the world from the farthest place in the world from the farthest place in the world from where I am right now in the US. So, it's where I am right now in the US. So, it's where I am right now in the US. So, it's just it's so far away, but it is so just it's so far away, but it is so just it's so far away, but it is so beautiful. So, Kyle and Rory, thank you beautiful. So, Kyle and Rory, thank you beautiful. So, Kyle and Rory, thank you for joining me on the deep dish today.

for joining me on the deep dish today. for joining me on the deep dish today. Uh, we are going to talk about something Uh, we are going to talk about something Uh, we are going to talk about something that I just told you all before we start that I just told you all before we start that I just told you all before we start hit record that I'm so excited to talk hit record that I'm so excited to talk hit record that I'm so excited to talk about which at first blush people might about which at first blush people might about which at first blush people might not get that excited about, but I hope not get that excited about, but I hope not get that excited about, but I hope that by the time we're finished with that by the time we're finished with that by the time we're finished with this conversation, they'll understand this conversation, they'll understand this conversation, they'll understand why the three of us love this so much. why the three of us love this so much. why the three of us love this so much. But it is the doctrine of union with But it is the doctrine of union with But it is the doctrine of union with Christ. And so, you've each written a Christ. And so, you've each written a Christ. And so, you've each written a book on union with Christ. So, what I book on union with Christ. So, what I book on union with Christ. So, what I want to do to start, I want each of you want to do to start, I want each of you want to do to start, I want each of you to give because you both give great to give because you both give great to give because you both give great working definitions in your books of working definitions in your books of working definitions in your books of like your definition of what union with like your definition of what union with like your definition of what union with Christ means. Christ means. Christ means. >> I'll let Rory lead the way. He's ahead >> I'll let Rory lead the way. He's ahead >> I'll let Rory lead the way. He's ahead in the time zone. So, we'll let him go in the time zone. So, we'll let him go in the time zone. So, we'll let him go in the definitions here. in the definitions here. in the definitions here. >> True. He's already at tomorrow morning. >> True. He's already at tomorrow morning. >> True. He's already at tomorrow morning. He's so far ahead of us. He's so far ahead of us. He's so far ahead of us. >> That's right. I I can just let you all >> That's right. I I can just let you all >> That's right. I I can just let you all know that you're going to love tomorrow. know that you're going to love tomorrow. know that you're going to love tomorrow. It's a great day and it's it's going It's a great day and it's it's going It's a great day and it's it's going well so far. The Lord's here, too, so well so far. The Lord's here, too, so well so far. The Lord's here, too, so it's uh it's all good. Um it's uh it's all good. Um it's uh it's all good. Um [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] uh look, I uh I think that union with uh look, I uh I think that union with uh look, I uh I think that union with Christ uh uh one way to say it would be Christ uh uh one way to say it would be Christ uh uh one way to say it would be uh it's the relationship we have with uh it's the relationship we have with uh it's the relationship we have with Christ by faith. Um we might unpack Christ by faith. Um we might unpack Christ by faith. Um we might unpack this, but it's the relationship that we this, but it's the relationship that we this, but it's the relationship that we have with Christ by faith. It's the the have with Christ by faith. It's the the have with Christ by faith. It's the the overwhelmingly dominant way of uh the overwhelmingly dominant way of uh the overwhelmingly dominant way of uh the way that the Bible describes our way that the Bible describes our way that the Bible describes our relationship with uh Jesus is that we relationship with uh Jesus is that we relationship with uh Jesus is that we are um in him, with him, uh connected to are um in him, with him, uh connected to are um in him, with him, uh connected to him, married to him. um uh or you know him, married to him. um uh or you know him, married to him. um uh or you know grafted into him all all these things.

grafted into him all all these things. grafted into him all all these things. That's the big uh the kind of word cloud That's the big uh the kind of word cloud That's the big uh the kind of word cloud for what we call union with Christ which for what we call union with Christ which for what we call union with Christ which is to say that uh by faith we enter into is to say that uh by faith we enter into is to say that uh by faith we enter into a relationship with Jesus where we're in a relationship with Jesus where we're in a relationship with Jesus where we're in him so that all that uh he has um him so that all that uh he has um him so that all that uh he has um becomes ours. becomes ours. becomes ours. >> I love that. I love that. Yeah. In the >> I love that. I love that. Yeah. In the >> I love that. I love that. Yeah. In the book I talk about you with Christ as the book I talk about you with Christ as the book I talk about you with Christ as the Christians identification, Christians identification, Christians identification, incorporation and participation into all incorporation and participation into all incorporation and participation into all of Christ's life. So identification of Christ's life. So identification of Christ's life. So identification that's an identity component. Uh in that's an identity component. Uh in that's an identity component. Uh in Christ I become a new me. Uh then uh Christ I become a new me. Uh then uh Christ I become a new me. Uh then uh incorporation in Christ I become a part incorporation in Christ I become a part incorporation in Christ I become a part of a new we. Uh and then participation of a new we. Uh and then participation of a new we. Uh and then participation in Christ we're given a new way to live in Christ we're given a new way to live in Christ we're given a new way to live in Jesus. So identification in Jesus. So identification in Jesus. So identification incorporation and participation into all incorporation and participation into all incorporation and participation into all of Christ's life. And kind of the of Christ's life. And kind of the of Christ's life. And kind of the shorthand is in union with Christ I shorthand is in union with Christ I shorthand is in union with Christ I receive a new me. I become a part of a receive a new me. I become a part of a receive a new me. I become a part of a new we and I'm welcomed into a new way new we and I'm welcomed into a new way new we and I'm welcomed into a new way to live in God's world. And so I I to live in God's world. And so I I to live in God's world. And so I I riffing off of something from John Frame riffing off of something from John Frame riffing off of something from John Frame I heard many years ago. He said in I heard many years ago. He said in I heard many years ago. He said in Christ is the most general thing that Christ is the most general thing that Christ is the most general thing that you can say about a Christian. I would you can say about a Christian. I would you can say about a Christian. I would just say in Christ is the most general just say in Christ is the most general just say in Christ is the most general and the most wonderful thing you can say and the most wonderful thing you can say and the most wonderful thing you can say about a Christian is that they're united about a Christian is that they're united about a Christian is that they're united with Christ. It's the most fundamental with Christ. It's the most fundamental with Christ. It's the most fundamental thing and it's the most significant thing and it's the most significant thing and it's the most significant thing.

thing. thing. >> There's no salvation apart from union >> There's no salvation apart from union >> There's no salvation apart from union with Christ. I mean it's how we're it's with Christ. I mean it's how we're it's with Christ. I mean it's how we're it's how we're saved and um it's so okay. So how we're saved and um it's so okay. So how we're saved and um it's so okay. So I'm going to ask you guys when you first I'm going to ask you guys when you first I'm going to ask you guys when you first started realizing like the centrality started realizing like the centrality started realizing like the centrality and the and the beauty and the necessity and the and the beauty and the necessity and the and the beauty and the necessity of this doctrine. But I want to tell you of this doctrine. But I want to tell you of this doctrine. But I want to tell you so for me when I was in seminary I had a so for me when I was in seminary I had a so for me when I was in seminary I had a professor who every single class and he professor who every single class and he professor who every single class and he always did his arms kind of like this always did his arms kind of like this always did his arms kind of like this and he was like it's all about union and he was like it's all about union and he was like it's all about union with Christ. It's all about union with with Christ. It's all about union with with Christ. It's all about union with Christ. And you know it was kind of one Christ. And you know it was kind of one Christ. And you know it was kind of one of those things. I was like yeah that of those things. I was like yeah that of those things. I was like yeah that sounds right. You know it's it I'm it sounds right. You know it's it I'm it sounds right. You know it's it I'm it does sound right but I just didn't does sound right but I just didn't does sound right but I just didn't really get what he meant. And then all really get what he meant. And then all really get what he meant. And then all of a sudden, you know, you're reading of a sudden, you know, you're reading of a sudden, you know, you're reading and of course we'll probably end up and of course we'll probably end up and of course we'll probably end up going to Ephesians 1, but you're reading going to Ephesians 1, but you're reading going to Ephesians 1, but you're reading and all of a sudden all those little and all of a sudden all those little and all of a sudden all those little phrases that you just mentioned, Rory, phrases that you just mentioned, Rory, phrases that you just mentioned, Rory, you know, in him, with him, um, for him, you know, in him, with him, um, for him, you know, in him, with him, um, for him, like it's all it just starts jumping off like it's all it just starts jumping off like it's all it just starts jumping off the page and you're like, "Oh, it really the page and you're like, "Oh, it really the page and you're like, "Oh, it really is all about union with Christ." So, is all about union with Christ." So, is all about union with Christ." So, what about you guys? When did it like what about you guys? When did it like what about you guys? When did it like become like this light bulb moment? become like this light bulb moment? become like this light bulb moment? Yeah, I was I was a seminary student and Yeah, I was I was a seminary student and Yeah, I was I was a seminary student and I was already I'd been in vocational I was already I'd been in vocational I was already I'd been in vocational ministry for a few years at that point ministry for a few years at that point ministry for a few years at that point and was teaching God's word to students and was teaching God's word to students and was teaching God's word to students and I was sitting in a seminary and I was sitting in a seminary and I was sitting in a seminary classroom and the professor got up and classroom and the professor got up and classroom and the professor got up and he read through Ephesians chapter 1 um he read through Ephesians chapter 1 um he read through Ephesians chapter 1 um and he had a Scottish accent. I'm not and he had a Scottish accent. I'm not and he had a Scottish accent. I'm not going to try to do a Scottish accent.

going to try to do a Scottish accent. going to try to do a Scottish accent. Every accent I've ever tried ends up Every accent I've ever tried ends up Every accent I've ever tried ends up sounding vaguely Jamaican. Uh which we sounding vaguely Jamaican. Uh which we sounding vaguely Jamaican. Uh which we would think it was Scottish because we would think it was Scottish because we would think it was Scottish because we don't we can't tell the difference. You don't we can't tell the difference. You don't we can't tell the difference. You know, know, know, >> we're not very we're not very >> we're not very we're not very >> we're not very we're not very discerning. But this professor had a discerning. But this professor had a discerning. But this professor had a very booming Scottish accent. But the very booming Scottish accent. But the very booming Scottish accent. But the way he read Ephesians 1, he emphasized way he read Ephesians 1, he emphasized way he read Ephesians 1, he emphasized all those prepositional phrases. And as all those prepositional phrases. And as all those prepositional phrases. And as he did so, there really was no he did so, there really was no he did so, there really was no commentary he gave to the text. And at commentary he gave to the text. And at commentary he gave to the text. And at the end, he just said, "A faithful the end, he just said, "A faithful the end, he just said, "A faithful summary of what I've just read is that summary of what I've just read is that summary of what I've just read is that everything good that God has for you is everything good that God has for you is everything good that God has for you is in Christ." That's all he said. And then in Christ." That's all he said. And then in Christ." That's all he said. And then we broke for lunch. And honestly, the we broke for lunch. And honestly, the we broke for lunch. And honestly, the word of God just shattered me in that word of God just shattered me in that word of God just shattered me in that moment. It was really just the reading moment. It was really just the reading moment. It was really just the reading of Ephesians chapter 1 with that very of Ephesians chapter 1 with that very of Ephesians chapter 1 with that very small one-s sentence commentary. Um, I small one-s sentence commentary. Um, I small one-s sentence commentary. Um, I did not even go back into the classroom did not even go back into the classroom did not even go back into the classroom that afternoon. We had a lunch break. It that afternoon. We had a lunch break. It that afternoon. We had a lunch break. It was one of those oneweek miniasters. I was one of those oneweek miniasters. I was one of those oneweek miniasters. I walked around downtown Dallas where I walked around downtown Dallas where I walked around downtown Dallas where I was at uh and honestly just wept. It was at uh and honestly just wept. It was at uh and honestly just wept. It felt as close to a second conversion as felt as close to a second conversion as felt as close to a second conversion as I could really describe. It was really a I could really describe. It was really a I could really describe. It was really a reawakening of the gospel in my heart.

reawakening of the gospel in my heart. reawakening of the gospel in my heart. Uh, I'm truly grateful for it. Truly Uh, I'm truly grateful for it. Truly Uh, I'm truly grateful for it. Truly grateful just for the reading of God's grateful just for the reading of God's grateful just for the reading of God's word in that moment. Um I think for me a word in that moment. Um I think for me a word in that moment. Um I think for me a little less um uh little less traumatic little less um uh little less traumatic little less um uh little less traumatic but it was in um again at at um but it was in um again at at um but it was in um again at at um theological college or seminary and uh theological college or seminary and uh theological college or seminary and uh in the early years of Christian uh in the early years of Christian uh in the early years of Christian uh Christian ministry there were um I guess Christian ministry there were um I guess Christian ministry there were um I guess two two streams there were a bunch of two two streams there were a bunch of two two streams there were a bunch of debates at the time uh about um the debates at the time uh about um the debates at the time uh about um the imputation of Christ's righteousness and imputation of Christ's righteousness and imputation of Christ's righteousness and um the alien righteousness of Christ um the alien righteousness of Christ um the alien righteousness of Christ bunch of like semi-technical debates and bunch of like semi-technical debates and bunch of like semi-technical debates and but you'd often find in a footnote um but you'd often find in a footnote um but you'd often find in a footnote um someone would it's all resolved in union someone would it's all resolved in union someone would it's all resolved in union or it's all this is all kind of all or it's all this is all kind of all or it's all this is all kind of all comes together in union with Christ and comes together in union with Christ and comes together in union with Christ and I would get frustrated with these books I would get frustrated with these books I would get frustrated with these books that wouldn't go on to explain that and that wouldn't go on to explain that and that wouldn't go on to explain that and um so I had this sense at a um in the um so I had this sense at a um in the um so I had this sense at a um in the scholarship that there was this thing scholarship that there was this thing scholarship that there was this thing called union with Christ that that a called union with Christ that that a called union with Christ that that a bunch of stuff was getting shipped bunch of stuff was getting shipped bunch of stuff was getting shipped toward but no one was unpacking it for toward but no one was unpacking it for toward but no one was unpacking it for me. Um and uh and then pastorally, I me. Um and uh and then pastorally, I me. Um and uh and then pastorally, I guess there were a whole bunch of guess there were a whole bunch of guess there were a whole bunch of situations I I guess personally and situations I I guess personally and situations I I guess personally and pastorally um where you became pastorally um where you became pastorally um where you became increasingly aware that that um increasingly aware that that um increasingly aware that that um uh I guess there was a sense of maybe uh I guess there was a sense of maybe uh I guess there was a sense of maybe fragility in people's own sense of their fragility in people's own sense of their fragility in people's own sense of their um their place with God. um their their um their place with God. um their their um their place with God. um their their confidence of um salvation, their um confidence of um salvation, their um confidence of um salvation, their um their ability to uh live the Christian their ability to uh live the Christian their ability to uh live the Christian life joyfully and um with uh with yeah life joyfully and um with uh with yeah life joyfully and um with uh with yeah with joyful sort of conviction and um

with joyful sort of conviction and um with joyful sort of conviction and um you know I guess it was this this slow you know I guess it was this this slow you know I guess it was this this slow release experience of uh I guess what release experience of uh I guess what release experience of uh I guess what Courtney was saying that this this ph Courtney was saying that this this ph Courtney was saying that this this ph these phrases keep jumping up in Christ these phrases keep jumping up in Christ these phrases keep jumping up in Christ with Christ these these pastoral plays with Christ these these pastoral plays with Christ these these pastoral plays happen in the New Testament. where happen in the New Testament. where happen in the New Testament. where situations where we might say um oh I situations where we might say um oh I situations where we might say um oh I wonder if that person's really a wonder if that person's really a wonder if that person's really a Christian. The the New Testament works Christian. The the New Testament works Christian. The the New Testament works on this kind of because you're a on this kind of because you're a on this kind of because you're a Christian. You of course you should put Christian. You of course you should put Christian. You of course you should put this off put this on and it's not this off put this on and it's not this off put this on and it's not constantly throwing shade on whether oh constantly throwing shade on whether oh constantly throwing shade on whether oh my goodness maybe they're not believing my goodness maybe they're not believing my goodness maybe they're not believing hard enough or trying hard enough but hard enough or trying hard enough but hard enough or trying hard enough but because you're in Christ X Y and Zed. because you're in Christ X Y and Zed. because you're in Christ X Y and Zed. here's this doctrine that was here's this doctrine that was here's this doctrine that was simultaneously, simultaneously, simultaneously, you know, the solution to a bunch of um you know, the solution to a bunch of um you know, the solution to a bunch of um scholarly problems, but then I couldn't scholarly problems, but then I couldn't scholarly problems, but then I couldn't find anyone who was unpacking it for me. find anyone who was unpacking it for me. find anyone who was unpacking it for me. And um and biblically this solution to a And um and biblically this solution to a And um and biblically this solution to a whole bunch of pastoral uh problems and whole bunch of pastoral uh problems and whole bunch of pastoral uh problems and uh so then uh someone uh asked me at a uh so then uh someone uh asked me at a uh so then uh someone uh asked me at a conference to to speak on that topic and conference to to speak on that topic and conference to to speak on that topic and um and I thought, "Oh, absolutely." And um and I thought, "Oh, absolutely." And um and I thought, "Oh, absolutely." And so took that deep dive in and never so took that deep dive in and never so took that deep dive in and never looked back. had that um you know looked back. had that um you know looked back. had that um you know terrific experience of um uh yeah almost terrific experience of um uh yeah almost terrific experience of um uh yeah almost that kind of um uh those things that that kind of um uh those things that that kind of um uh those things that happen I think occasionally in the happen I think occasionally in the happen I think occasionally in the Christian life where you're like how was Christian life where you're like how was Christian life where you're like how was I not told this before and um [laughter] I not told this before and um [laughter] I not told this before and um [laughter] you know who do I hold personally you know who do I hold personally you know who do I hold personally responsible for letting me get this far responsible for letting me get this far responsible for letting me get this far without understanding this? Um uh so without understanding this? Um uh so without understanding this? Um uh so that that that's how it how it happened that that that's how it how it happened that that that's how it how it happened for me.

for me. for me. >> It's like when people first understand >> It's like when people first understand >> It's like when people first understand the whole story of scripture and they're the whole story of scripture and they're the whole story of scripture and they're like how was I not told this before? like how was I not told this before? like how was I not told this before? This is how I feel about union with This is how I feel about union with This is how I feel about union with Christ. And so, you know, it's it's just Christ. And so, you know, it's it's just Christ. And so, you know, it's it's just as kind of paradigm shifting as as if as kind of paradigm shifting as as if as kind of paradigm shifting as as if you've you know, if the biblical story you've you know, if the biblical story you've you know, if the biblical story has come alive for you, union with has come alive for you, union with has come alive for you, union with Christ, you need to dive into that next. Christ, you need to dive into that next. Christ, you need to dive into that next. Well, I think each of you in your books, Well, I think each of you in your books, Well, I think each of you in your books, you did such a good job with just making you did such a good job with just making you did such a good job with just making it so understandable. And you each use it so understandable. And you each use it so understandable. And you each use an analogy. So, Rory, yours is about an an analogy. So, Rory, yours is about an an analogy. So, Rory, yours is about an airplane that I have used a thousand3 airplane that I have used a thousand3 airplane that I have used a thousand3 times and Kyle, yours is about a road times and Kyle, yours is about a road times and Kyle, yours is about a road trip. And I love there's there's um trip. And I love there's there's um trip. And I love there's there's um anyway I would love for you guys to take anyway I would love for you guys to take anyway I would love for you guys to take even 30 seconds and tell 60 seconds and even 30 seconds and tell 60 seconds and even 30 seconds and tell 60 seconds and tell the the story of so that so that we tell the the story of so that so that we tell the the story of so that so that we have that word picture in our minds have that word picture in our minds have that word picture in our minds because it really is where like the because it really is where like the because it really is where like the marble dropped for me and I was like oh marble dropped for me and I was like oh marble dropped for me and I was like oh that makes so much sense. So Kyle, you that makes so much sense. So Kyle, you that makes so much sense. So Kyle, you want to go first on this one? want to go first on this one? want to go first on this one? >> Yeah, sure. I I talk about maybe two >> Yeah, sure. I I talk about maybe two >> Yeah, sure. I I talk about maybe two things. Um, uh, I talk about the road things. Um, uh, I talk about the road things. Um, uh, I talk about the road trip certainly that if we were going on trip certainly that if we were going on trip certainly that if we were going on a road trip and I had packed up the car a road trip and I had packed up the car a road trip and I had packed up the car with all of your favorite stuff, um, and with all of your favorite stuff, um, and with all of your favorite stuff, um, and we were headed from my house out to the we were headed from my house out to the we were headed from my house out to the Oregon coast. We love the Oregon coast, Oregon coast. We love the Oregon coast, Oregon coast. We love the Oregon coast, but it's far away. We were going to make but it's far away. We were going to make but it's far away. We were going to make this road trip just asking where do you this road trip just asking where do you this road trip just asking where do you need to be in relationship to the car to need to be in relationship to the car to need to be in relationship to the car to get to the Oregon coast from Dallas. And get to the Oregon coast from Dallas. And get to the Oregon coast from Dallas. And you could try to get out in front of the you could try to get out in front of the you could try to get out in front of the car and pull us along with a rope. You car and pull us along with a rope. You car and pull us along with a rope. You could Back to the Future style and grab could Back to the Future style and grab could Back to the Future style and grab the back bumper on a hoverboard or the back bumper on a hoverboard or the back bumper on a hoverboard or skateboard and try to ride along behind skateboard and try to ride along behind skateboard and try to ride along behind us. You could strap yourself to the roof

us. You could strap yourself to the roof us. You could strap yourself to the roof or the bottom of the car. Uh you could or the bottom of the car. Uh you could or the bottom of the car. Uh you could run alongside or try to run out ahead. run alongside or try to run out ahead. run alongside or try to run out ahead. But you know that where you really need But you know that where you really need But you know that where you really need to be to get to where we're going is you to be to get to where we're going is you to be to get to where we're going is you need to be in the car. And if you're in need to be in the car. And if you're in need to be in the car. And if you're in the car, no matter the roadblocks, no the car, no matter the roadblocks, no the car, no matter the roadblocks, no matter the detours, if you're in the matter the detours, if you're in the matter the detours, if you're in the car, you'll get to the destination. And car, you'll get to the destination. And car, you'll get to the destination. And that that kind of connects to a really that that kind of connects to a really that that kind of connects to a really deep reality of our union with Christ is deep reality of our union with Christ is deep reality of our union with Christ is that once we by grace through faith in that once we by grace through faith in that once we by grace through faith in Christ are knit to Jesus. We're united Christ are knit to Jesus. We're united Christ are knit to Jesus. We're united with Christ. This is now an unbreakable, with Christ. This is now an unbreakable, with Christ. This is now an unbreakable, unshakable, unchangeable union. Nothing unshakable, unchangeable union. Nothing unshakable, unchangeable union. Nothing can deepen it. Nothing can disrupt it. can deepen it. Nothing can disrupt it. can deepen it. Nothing can disrupt it. Nothing can separate us from the love of Nothing can separate us from the love of Nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ. And I think it's a great God in Christ. And I think it's a great God in Christ. And I think it's a great comfort, but it's also, as Rory was comfort, but it's also, as Rory was comfort, but it's also, as Rory was signaling, it's a great foundation for signaling, it's a great foundation for signaling, it's a great foundation for Christian faithfulness because now we Christian faithfulness because now we Christian faithfulness because now we can kind of risk everything in this can kind of risk everything in this can kind of risk everything in this grand adventure, knowing that at the ve grand adventure, knowing that at the ve grand adventure, knowing that at the ve uh the very worst, we cannot lose the uh the very worst, we cannot lose the uh the very worst, we cannot lose the forever love of God in Christ. And forever love of God in Christ. And forever love of God in Christ. And that's an incredible freedom once you that's an incredible freedom once you that's an incredible freedom once you begin to once you begin to really walk begin to once you begin to really walk begin to once you begin to really walk in the power of that. There's there's in the power of that. There's there's in the power of that. There's there's real freedom there. real freedom there. real freedom there. >> Yeah. You're not going to get kicked out >> Yeah. You're not going to get kicked out >> Yeah. You're not going to get kicked out of that car.

of that car. of that car. >> No, you're not you're not going to get >> No, you're not you're not going to get >> No, you're not you're not going to get booted out. Roy, tell us about the plane booted out. Roy, tell us about the plane booted out. Roy, tell us about the plane going to Melbourne. Melbourne, now I say going to Melbourne. Melbourne, now I say going to Melbourne. Melbourne, now I say it right. it right. it right. >> Melbourne. That's That's exactly right. >> Melbourne. That's That's exactly right. >> Melbourne. That's That's exactly right. So, yeah, very similar to to Kyle So, yeah, very similar to to Kyle So, yeah, very similar to to Kyle because I think what I think one of the because I think what I think one of the because I think what I think one of the challenges with union with Christ, one challenges with union with Christ, one challenges with union with Christ, one of the ways I think we don't grasp it is of the ways I think we don't grasp it is of the ways I think we don't grasp it is that um we kind of know what a sacrifice that um we kind of know what a sacrifice that um we kind of know what a sacrifice is. We know what first fruits are in an is. We know what first fruits are in an is. We know what first fruits are in an orchard. That's the resurrection. We orchard. That's the resurrection. We orchard. That's the resurrection. We know what um and union is a uh the know what um and union is a uh the know what um and union is a uh the technical word is it's a lockative idea. technical word is it's a lockative idea. technical word is it's a lockative idea. It's about a location and you know what It's about a location and you know what It's about a location and you know what does it mean to be in someone? And so uh does it mean to be in someone? And so uh does it mean to be in someone? And so uh my illustration very similar to car was my illustration very similar to car was my illustration very similar to car was a plane um uh that so if you imagine two a plane um uh that so if you imagine two a plane um uh that so if you imagine two people uh you get to the airport you're people uh you get to the airport you're people uh you get to the airport you're looking at the plane and uh you you've looking at the plane and uh you you've looking at the plane and uh you you've got your ticket and you think what do I got your ticket and you think what do I got your ticket and you think what do I do? Do I do I chase it? Do I get do? Do I do I chase it? Do I get do? Do I do I chase it? Do I get inspired by it? Do I um uh do I learn inspired by it? Do I um uh do I learn inspired by it? Do I um uh do I learn from it? And the thing is you need to be from it? And the thing is you need to be from it? And the thing is you need to be in it because uh once you're in it uh in it because uh once you're in it uh in it because uh once you're in it uh where it goes is where you'll go. And uh where it goes is where you'll go. And uh where it goes is where you'll go. And uh in the illustration I I like to in the illustration I I like to in the illustration I I like to introduce two different people. So introduce two different people. So introduce two different people. So here's someone who goes to Melbourne uh here's someone who goes to Melbourne uh here's someone who goes to Melbourne uh you know once a month for you know the you know once a month for you know the you know once a month for you know the board conference. They've got frequent board conference. They've got frequent board conference. They've got frequent fly points for days. They are completely fly points for days. They are completely fly points for days. They are completely confident. They don't listen when the um confident. They don't listen when the um confident. They don't listen when the um when the um you know cabin staff are when the um you know cabin staff are when the um you know cabin staff are explaining how to keep safe and where explaining how to keep safe and where explaining how to keep safe and where the exit rows are cuz they're just so the exit rows are cuz they're just so the exit rows are cuz they're just so confident that this plane's going to get confident that this plane's going to get confident that this plane's going to get them where it's going to take them. And them where it's going to take them. And them where it's going to take them. And then here's a second person, first time then here's a second person, first time then here's a second person, first time on a plane, never been to Melbourne on a plane, never been to Melbourne on a plane, never been to Melbourne before, never been in a plane before,

before, never been in a plane before, before, never been in a plane before, and they're nervous and they're fretful and they're nervous and they're fretful and they're nervous and they're fretful and they're constantly asking questions. and they're constantly asking questions. and they're constantly asking questions. And uh when the cabin crew are And uh when the cabin crew are And uh when the cabin crew are explaining the safety procedures, explaining the safety procedures, explaining the safety procedures, they're taking notes, and then they're they're taking notes, and then they're they're taking notes, and then they're revising it across the uh across the revising it across the uh across the revising it across the uh across the journey. And my two questions are um you journey. And my two questions are um you journey. And my two questions are um you know, which of those two people has more know, which of those two people has more know, which of those two people has more faith? And um I I think that's an faith? And um I I think that's an faith? And um I I think that's an answerable question that the person with answerable question that the person with answerable question that the person with higher degrees of confidence has more higher degrees of confidence has more higher degrees of confidence has more faith in the plane and it's its crew. faith in the plane and it's its crew. faith in the plane and it's its crew. But the second question is of those two But the second question is of those two But the second question is of those two which of them gets to Melbourne which of them gets to Melbourne which of them gets to Melbourne and then I think the the story and then I think the the story and then I think the the story completely changes then because the completely changes then because the completely changes then because the moment you say which of them gets to moment you say which of them gets to moment you say which of them gets to Melbourne the confident person doesn't Melbourne the confident person doesn't Melbourne the confident person doesn't get to Melbourne quicker or better and get to Melbourne quicker or better and get to Melbourne quicker or better and the the fearful person doesn't get there the the fearful person doesn't get there the the fearful person doesn't get there >> more to Melbourne. >> more to Melbourne. >> more to Melbourne. >> Yeah, that's right. No one's getting >> Yeah, that's right. No one's getting >> Yeah, that's right. No one's getting more to Melbourne. that at that point more to Melbourne. that at that point more to Melbourne. that at that point the question is almost absurd because the question is almost absurd because the question is almost absurd because it's entirely dependent not on how much it's entirely dependent not on how much it's entirely dependent not on how much faith you had but on what your faith was faith you had but on what your faith was faith you had but on what your faith was in. And I think that's a that's a uh key in. And I think that's a that's a uh key in. And I think that's a that's a uh key part of union with Christ is that it part of union with Christ is that it part of union with Christ is that it flips that narrative. Um, which flips that narrative. Um, which flips that narrative. Um, which ironically is is a is a is a a way or ironically is is a is a is a a way or ironically is is a is a is a a way or not ironically, paradoxically, a way to not ironically, paradoxically, a way to not ironically, paradoxically, a way to build confidence is to get it off you build confidence is to get it off you build confidence is to get it off you and onto the thing uh that you've placed and onto the thing uh that you've placed and onto the thing uh that you've placed yourself in or the person in the case of yourself in or the person in the case of yourself in or the person in the case of uh Jesus.

uh Jesus. uh Jesus. >> What a sweet truth for anybody listening >> What a sweet truth for anybody listening >> What a sweet truth for anybody listening who's just like, you know, I I doubt I I who's just like, you know, I I doubt I I who's just like, you know, I I doubt I I [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] don't think my faith is very strong. I don't think my faith is very strong. I don't think my faith is very strong. I mean, what a union with Christ. That's mean, what a union with Christ. That's mean, what a union with Christ. That's where our confidence is. I just I just where our confidence is. I just I just where our confidence is. I just I just love that. And what a sweet love that. And what a sweet love that. And what a sweet encouragement it is. Well, I want to encouragement it is. Well, I want to encouragement it is. Well, I want to talk about where we really see this in talk about where we really see this in talk about where we really see this in the Bible. And you know, I already the Bible. And you know, I already the Bible. And you know, I already mentioned Ephesians 1, and that's a mentioned Ephesians 1, and that's a mentioned Ephesians 1, and that's a pretty that's a pretty easy place to go pretty that's a pretty easy place to go pretty that's a pretty easy place to go because it's everywhere. So, if you because it's everywhere. So, if you because it's everywhere. So, if you haven't read it, go read Ephesians 1 and haven't read it, go read Ephesians 1 and haven't read it, go read Ephesians 1 and look for the prepositions. Um, but as I look for the prepositions. Um, but as I look for the prepositions. Um, but as I was reading your books and rereading was reading your books and rereading was reading your books and rereading them, I I love, you know, Rory, you them, I I love, you know, Rory, you them, I I love, you know, Rory, you really anchor union with Christ in really anchor union with Christ in really anchor union with Christ in Genesis 1 and 2 in Eden in the garden. Genesis 1 and 2 in Eden in the garden. Genesis 1 and 2 in Eden in the garden. And Kyle, you do, too. But then you go And Kyle, you do, too. But then you go And Kyle, you do, too. But then you go to the covenants, and I love that. And to the covenants, and I love that. And to the covenants, and I love that. And so I'd love for you to each take a so I'd love for you to each take a so I'd love for you to each take a minute and talk about like where in the minute and talk about like where in the minute and talk about like where in the Old Testament are are we seeing this and Old Testament are are we seeing this and Old Testament are are we seeing this and why do you why do you pull those threads why do you why do you pull those threads why do you why do you pull those threads um for us instead of just saying oh well um for us instead of just saying oh well um for us instead of just saying oh well it shows up for the first time and you it shows up for the first time and you it shows up for the first time and you know in Ephesians 1 or yeah or even John know in Ephesians 1 or yeah or even John know in Ephesians 1 or yeah or even John 17 you know those are easy places to see 17 you know those are easy places to see 17 you know those are easy places to see it. Yeah, look, I do think that uh it. Yeah, look, I do think that uh it. Yeah, look, I do think that uh that's right that the um I think it is that's right that the um I think it is that's right that the um I think it is it is a a bit of a mistake to think that it is a a bit of a mistake to think that it is a a bit of a mistake to think that the doctrine of union of Christ just the doctrine of union of Christ just the doctrine of union of Christ just springs, you know, from a clear blue sky springs, you know, from a clear blue sky springs, you know, from a clear blue sky into the New Testament that it has uh it into the New Testament that it has uh it into the New Testament that it has uh it its background uh in the Old Testament.

its background uh in the Old Testament. its background uh in the Old Testament. So, for example, in in Eden, I think one So, for example, in in Eden, I think one So, for example, in in Eden, I think one of the things you see there is that um of the things you see there is that um of the things you see there is that um uh God, you know, first of all, there's uh God, you know, first of all, there's uh God, you know, first of all, there's God. There's only one thing. Then God. There's only one thing. Then God. There's only one thing. Then there's two things which is God and there's two things which is God and there's two things which is God and everything that God has made and everything that God has made and everything that God has made and everything that God has made is you know everything that God has made is you know everything that God has made is you know over those six days is bought bought over those six days is bought bought over those six days is bought bought into um you know order and focus into um you know order and focus into um you know order and focus separating sky from you know heaven from separating sky from you know heaven from separating sky from you know heaven from earth uh sea from land and so on forming earth uh sea from land and so on forming earth uh sea from land and so on forming and filling is what God does. And then and filling is what God does. And then and filling is what God does. And then in Genesis chapter 2 in the middle of in Genesis chapter 2 in the middle of in Genesis chapter 2 in the middle of the creation you had this unity which is the creation you had this unity which is the creation you had this unity which is the atom the the man who is torn apart. the atom the the man who is torn apart. the atom the the man who is torn apart. So the the one becomes two and then in So the the one becomes two and then in So the the one becomes two and then in the that kind of marriage scene in the that kind of marriage scene in the that kind of marriage scene in Genesis chapter 2 as they come back Genesis chapter 2 as they come back Genesis chapter 2 as they come back together that's not just a union but a together that's not just a union but a together that's not just a union but a reunion because a thing that was once reunion because a thing that was once reunion because a thing that was once one becomes two and then comes back one becomes two and then comes back one becomes two and then comes back together in the complex union of uh of together in the complex union of uh of together in the complex union of uh of of marriage. And that's what for example of marriage. And that's what for example of marriage. And that's what for example Paul um in Ephesians 5 he's he's using Paul um in Ephesians 5 he's he's using Paul um in Ephesians 5 he's he's using that like he's not saying oh here's this that like he's not saying oh here's this that like he's not saying oh here's this new thing I thought of you know last new thing I thought of you know last new thing I thought of you know last Tuesday called union with Christ but Tuesday called union with Christ but Tuesday called union with Christ but here here are the antecedants to God's here here are the antecedants to God's here here are the antecedants to God's um you know overwhelming purpose of um you know overwhelming purpose of um you know overwhelming purpose of bringing and what I would call a complex bringing and what I would call a complex bringing and what I would call a complex unity so it's not a unity of sameness unity so it's not a unity of sameness unity so it's not a unity of sameness where we we all become where we we all become where we we all become a a big you know there's a big stew and a a big you know there's a big stew and a a big you know there's a big stew and we all Uh so the the unity of Adam and

we all Uh so the the unity of Adam and we all Uh so the the unity of Adam and Eve in that first marriage is a complex Eve in that first marriage is a complex Eve in that first marriage is a complex unity where uh man and woman come unity where uh man and woman come unity where uh man and woman come together as one flesh and the union we together as one flesh and the union we together as one flesh and the union we have with Christ is a complex unity have with Christ is a complex unity have with Christ is a complex unity where we don't collapse into where we don't collapse into where we don't collapse into him. So we're unified while still being him. So we're unified while still being him. So we're unified while still being us. So it's it's there's still a me us. So it's it's there's still a me us. So it's it's there's still a me that's unified to Christ and that as Kai that's unified to Christ and that as Kai that's unified to Christ and that as Kai says there still a we that's unified says there still a we that's unified says there still a we that's unified with Christ. with Christ. with Christ. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> I love that. >> Just to keep riffing off of that. I mean >> Just to keep riffing off of that. I mean >> Just to keep riffing off of that. I mean the the organizing kind of motif of of the the organizing kind of motif of of the the organizing kind of motif of of how I approach union with Christ in the how I approach union with Christ in the how I approach union with Christ in the title of the book is home with God. Uh title of the book is home with God. Uh title of the book is home with God. Uh and and I really see that as an and and I really see that as an and and I really see that as an organizing principle of the whole story organizing principle of the whole story organizing principle of the whole story of the Bible of which union with Christ of the Bible of which union with Christ of the Bible of which union with Christ is the perfect fulfillment. So you have is the perfect fulfillment. So you have is the perfect fulfillment. So you have home with God in the garden in Genesis 1 home with God in the garden in Genesis 1 home with God in the garden in Genesis 1 and2 and then new heavens and new earth and2 and then new heavens and new earth and2 and then new heavens and new earth in Revelation 21 and 22. But the perfect in Revelation 21 and 22. But the perfect in Revelation 21 and 22. But the perfect fulfillment of our home with God of of fulfillment of our home with God of of fulfillment of our home with God of of dwelling with God is not just being dwelling with God is not just being dwelling with God is not just being around him but it's being in him. And around him but it's being in him. And around him but it's being in him. And so, uh, it's not the garden, nor is it so, uh, it's not the garden, nor is it so, uh, it's not the garden, nor is it the new heavens or the new earth. It's the new heavens or the new earth. It's the new heavens or the new earth. It's being in union with Christ. And the being in union with Christ. And the being in union with Christ. And the covenants are a foreshadowing of that covenants are a foreshadowing of that covenants are a foreshadowing of that before Christ. You see, with Abraham and before Christ. You see, with Abraham and before Christ. You see, with Abraham and then with Moses, with Israel's whole then with Moses, with Israel's whole then with Moses, with Israel's whole worshiping life, they are brought into worshiping life, they are brought into worshiping life, they are brought into relationship with God by virtue of relationship with God by virtue of relationship with God by virtue of covenant love, not on the basis of any covenant love, not on the basis of any covenant love, not on the basis of any works they could do or any righteousness works they could do or any righteousness works they could do or any righteousness that they've performed. And that that they've performed. And that that they've performed. And that covenant love has a a representative or covenant love has a a representative or covenant love has a a representative or a mediator um that there's somebody that a mediator um that there's somebody that a mediator um that there's somebody that they are in for Israel at least over the they are in for Israel at least over the they are in for Israel at least over the course of the Old Testament. It is being course of the Old Testament. It is being course of the Old Testament. It is being in Abraham that the covenant that God in Abraham that the covenant that God in Abraham that the covenant that God has made with Abraham. I think this is

has made with Abraham. I think this is has made with Abraham. I think this is really important to see not only because really important to see not only because really important to see not only because it helps to provide the context for the it helps to provide the context for the it helps to provide the context for the New Testament's explicit emphasis New Testament's explicit emphasis New Testament's explicit emphasis because we want to be clear union with because we want to be clear union with because we want to be clear union with Christ as you both have said isn't Christ as you both have said isn't Christ as you both have said isn't something that the New Testament authors something that the New Testament authors something that the New Testament authors discover or invent. It's a unfolding uh discover or invent. It's a unfolding uh discover or invent. It's a unfolding uh an explicit articulation of something an explicit articulation of something an explicit articulation of something that had always been there in a tectonic that had always been there in a tectonic that had always been there in a tectonic or foundational capacity. And the or foundational capacity. And the or foundational capacity. And the covenants are a demonstration of that. covenants are a demonstration of that. covenants are a demonstration of that. And I think it's important to point that And I think it's important to point that And I think it's important to point that out for one other reason, which is I out for one other reason, which is I out for one other reason, which is I find across the story of the Bible um a find across the story of the Bible um a find across the story of the Bible um a distinction between our union with distinction between our union with distinction between our union with Christ and our communion with God. I see Christ and our communion with God. I see Christ and our communion with God. I see I think we see this in the New Testament I think we see this in the New Testament I think we see this in the New Testament that our union with Christ is that our union with Christ is that our union with Christ is unbreakable, unshakable, and unbreakable, unshakable, and unbreakable, unshakable, and unchangeable. It's sealed by God in unchangeable. It's sealed by God in unchangeable. It's sealed by God in Christ for good forever. It can't be Christ for good forever. It can't be Christ for good forever. It can't be deepened or disrupted. Our communion deepened or disrupted. Our communion deepened or disrupted. Our communion with God is our enjoyment and experience with God is our enjoyment and experience with God is our enjoyment and experience of all that God has said is forever ours of all that God has said is forever ours of all that God has said is forever ours in Jesus. And this union and communion in Jesus. And this union and communion in Jesus. And this union and communion distinction that I think becomes really distinction that I think becomes really distinction that I think becomes really clear in the New Testament, I think is clear in the New Testament, I think is clear in the New Testament, I think is there in the covenant architecture there in the covenant architecture there in the covenant architecture between the covenant with Abraham and between the covenant with Abraham and between the covenant with Abraham and the covenant with Moses at Sinai, which the covenant with Moses at Sinai, which the covenant with Moses at Sinai, which the covenant with Abraham is this the covenant with Abraham is this the covenant with Abraham is this unconditional, no strings attached unconditional, no strings attached unconditional, no strings attached covenant. The covenant with Moses at covenant. The covenant with Moses at covenant. The covenant with Moses at Sinai has some conditionality to it. But Sinai has some conditionality to it. But Sinai has some conditionality to it. But it's not as if God has told Israel that it's not as if God has told Israel that it's not as if God has told Israel that they will only belong to him now on the they will only belong to him now on the they will only belong to him now on the basis of their behavior or their good basis of their behavior or their good basis of their behavior or their good works. But he is telling them in a works. But he is telling them in a works. But he is telling them in a further articulation of his love because further articulation of his love because further articulation of his love because you are my people for good forever. Now

you are my people for good forever. Now you are my people for good forever. Now behave as my people, live as my people. behave as my people, live as my people. behave as my people, live as my people. You are free from the bondage of Egypt. You are free from the bondage of Egypt. You are free from the bondage of Egypt. You are free on the foundation of my You are free on the foundation of my You are free on the foundation of my covenant love. So live in light of it. covenant love. So live in light of it. covenant love. So live in light of it. And I think that that um compliment uh And I think that that um compliment uh And I think that that um compliment uh complimentarity between the covenant complimentarity between the covenant complimentarity between the covenant with Abraham and the covenant with with Abraham and the covenant with with Abraham and the covenant with Moses, it mirrors in a foreshadowing way Moses, it mirrors in a foreshadowing way Moses, it mirrors in a foreshadowing way the distinction between union with the distinction between union with the distinction between union with Christ and communion with God that we Christ and communion with God that we Christ and communion with God that we find in a greater unfolding in the New find in a greater unfolding in the New find in a greater unfolding in the New Testament. So yeah, the covenants are Testament. So yeah, the covenants are Testament. So yeah, the covenants are really union with Christ infrastructure, really union with Christ infrastructure, really union with Christ infrastructure, you might say. Uh they're the precursor you might say. Uh they're the precursor you might say. Uh they're the precursor to uh the perfect fulfillment of to uh the perfect fulfillment of to uh the perfect fulfillment of covenant love which is found in Christ covenant love which is found in Christ covenant love which is found in Christ alone. alone. alone. >> Oh, I love that. I'd never thought of it >> Oh, I love that. I'd never thought of it >> Oh, I love that. I'd never thought of it in that way before and I love that in that way before and I love that in that way before and I love that connection. Okay, so this is just a connection. Okay, so this is just a connection. Okay, so this is just a personal question then. So John 15 um personal question then. So John 15 um personal question then. So John 15 um abide in me and I will abide in you and abide in me and I will abide in you and abide in me and I will abide in you and you know when you abide in me and my and you know when you abide in me and my and you know when you abide in me and my and abide in my word my word abides in you. abide in my word my word abides in you. abide in my word my word abides in you. So is that union with Christ? Is that is So is that union with Christ? Is that is So is that union with Christ? Is that is John 15 union with Christ language or John 15 union with Christ language or John 15 union with Christ language or not? That's a really good question and I not? That's a really good question and I not? That's a really good question and I don't you know Rory and I have just met don't you know Rory and I have just met don't you know Rory and I have just met and and we probably have taught this and and we probably have taught this and and we probably have taught this passage before and admittedly some of passage before and admittedly some of passage before and admittedly some of the language in John 15 is fairly the language in John 15 is fairly the language in John 15 is fairly technical. There there are portions of technical. There there are portions of technical. There there are portions of John 15 that I think you you can come John 15 that I think you you can come John 15 that I think you you can come you can land in different places even you can land in different places even you can land in different places even among Christian scholarship in terms of among Christian scholarship in terms of among Christian scholarship in terms of what the emphasis is. I I talk about ab what the emphasis is. I I talk about ab what the emphasis is. I I talk about ab abiding in home with God um as an abiding in home with God um as an abiding in home with God um as an adventure that there is a dynamic there adventure that there is a dynamic there adventure that there is a dynamic there and I think John 15 is my view of John and I think John 15 is my view of John and I think John 15 is my view of John 15 is that the language is oscillating 15 is that the language is oscillating 15 is that the language is oscillating or moving back and forth between a fixed

or moving back and forth between a fixed or moving back and forth between a fixed reality that is kept uh that is given by reality that is kept uh that is given by reality that is kept uh that is given by God and sealed by God and a present work God and sealed by God and a present work God and sealed by God and a present work among God's people that is empowered. So among God's people that is empowered. So among God's people that is empowered. So basically God is sealing us in Christ. basically God is sealing us in Christ. basically God is sealing us in Christ. He has pulled us into Christ. And now He has pulled us into Christ. And now He has pulled us into Christ. And now because of that, there is an activity at because of that, there is an activity at because of that, there is an activity at work in the believer's life. But God's work in the believer's life. But God's work in the believer's life. But God's faithfulness to us is not contingent on faithfulness to us is not contingent on faithfulness to us is not contingent on our faithfulness to him. But there are our faithfulness to him. But there are our faithfulness to him. But there are both blessings and consequences to not both blessings and consequences to not both blessings and consequences to not actively abiding in Christ. So again, actively abiding in Christ. So again, actively abiding in Christ. So again, that would be I don't want to I I Rory that would be I don't want to I I Rory that would be I don't want to I I Rory certainly would not be held to the same certainly would not be held to the same certainly would not be held to the same opinion. So having spoken first, I opinion. So having spoken first, I opinion. So having spoken first, I wouldn't want to to bias. He might think wouldn't want to to bias. He might think wouldn't want to to bias. He might think the same thing. But there are also the same thing. But there are also the same thing. But there are also really charitable uh other perspectives really charitable uh other perspectives really charitable uh other perspectives on how the language works in John 15. on how the language works in John 15. on how the language works in John 15. But for me, the emphasis is God has But for me, the emphasis is God has But for me, the emphasis is God has pulled us into life in Christ. There is pulled us into life in Christ. There is pulled us into life in Christ. There is an activity the believer now undertakes an activity the believer now undertakes an activity the believer now undertakes now. And there are both blessings and now. And there are both blessings and now. And there are both blessings and consequences in proportion to that consequences in proportion to that consequences in proportion to that activity. But what's not up for activity. But what's not up for activity. But what's not up for discussion is whether or not they belong discussion is whether or not they belong discussion is whether or not they belong to God in Christ having been brought to God in Christ having been brought to God in Christ having been brought into him. That is a fixed forever into him. That is a fixed forever into him. That is a fixed forever reality.

reality. reality. >> Okay, Rory, what do you think? I want to >> Okay, Rory, what do you think? I want to >> Okay, Rory, what do you think? I want to hear it. Yeah, I think that that that hear it. Yeah, I think that that that hear it. Yeah, I think that that that sounds that sounds like where where I sounds that sounds like where where I sounds that sounds like where where I land, but I think uh somewhere like if I land, but I think uh somewhere like if I land, but I think uh somewhere like if I mean certainly I think uh union with mean certainly I think uh union with mean certainly I think uh union with Christ in terms of the where it's coming Christ in terms of the where it's coming Christ in terms of the where it's coming from the New Testament, I think it's from the New Testament, I think it's from the New Testament, I think it's something like 164 times you get the something like 164 times you get the something like 164 times you get the phrase in Christ, but then you get a phrase in Christ, but then you get a phrase in Christ, but then you get a whole bunch of other um you know whole bunch of other um you know whole bunch of other um you know prepositions of being with Christ or prepositions of being with Christ or prepositions of being with Christ or co-cruified with Christ, buried with co-cruified with Christ, buried with co-cruified with Christ, buried with Christ in baptism, um the marriage Christ in baptism, um the marriage Christ in baptism, um the marriage metaphor, um one flesh and so on. And so metaphor, um one flesh and so on. And so metaphor, um one flesh and so on. And so I think I would want to think that the I think I would want to think that the I think I would want to think that the uh you know the upper room discourse in uh you know the upper room discourse in uh you know the upper room discourse in John uh 15 and so on is is part of that John uh 15 and so on is is part of that John uh 15 and so on is is part of that broad category of union with Christ. And broad category of union with Christ. And broad category of union with Christ. And I think with Kyle probably would I think with Kyle probably would I think with Kyle probably would share that view which I think occurs share that view which I think occurs share that view which I think occurs elsewhere in union with Christ that elsewhere in union with Christ that elsewhere in union with Christ that there is um both a objective and there is um both a objective and there is um both a objective and subjective um basis to it. So there is a subjective um basis to it. So there is a subjective um basis to it. So there is a um which is true of a ton of stuff in um which is true of a ton of stuff in um which is true of a ton of stuff in the Christian life. like you know Paul the Christian life. like you know Paul the Christian life. like you know Paul is able to say that I want to I want to is able to say that I want to I want to is able to say that I want to I want to know Christ and share in the fellowship know Christ and share in the fellowship know Christ and share in the fellowship of his sufferings in in uh in of his sufferings in in uh in of his sufferings in in uh in Philippians and so on where I think Philippians and so on where I think Philippians and so on where I think uh I think in in that abiding there's uh I think in in that abiding there's uh I think in in that abiding there's both an active thing that you you could both an active thing that you you could both an active thing that you you could abide more you could lean into that more abide more you could lean into that more abide more you could lean into that more and be more cognizant of those blessings and be more cognizant of those blessings and be more cognizant of those blessings and and so on and there is an objective and and so on and there is an objective and and so on and there is an objective sense in which he is the vine you are sense in which he is the vine you are sense in which he is the vine you are the branches is and I I think what I the branches is and I I think what I the branches is and I I think what I think the burden of teaching union with think the burden of teaching union with think the burden of teaching union with Christ and the the pastoral implications

Christ and the the pastoral implications Christ and the the pastoral implications I think is not to say there's no I think is not to say there's no I think is not to say there's no subjective element but I think to flip subjective element but I think to flip subjective element but I think to flip who's in the driving seat there to say who's in the driving seat there to say who's in the driving seat there to say out of the objective truth that we are out of the objective truth that we are out of the objective truth that we are one flesh with Christ that we are um one flesh with Christ that we are um one flesh with Christ that we are um members of his body or that we are um members of his body or that we are um members of his body or that we are um the branches of which he is the we are the branches of which he is the we are the branches of which he is the we are the he's the vine we're the branch as um the he's the vine we're the branch as um the he's the vine we're the branch as um it's on the basis of those objective it's on the basis of those objective it's on the basis of those objective truths that we can proceed with that truths that we can proceed with that truths that we can proceed with that subjective experience of experiencing subjective experience of experiencing subjective experience of experiencing the thing that's true in reality. the thing that's true in reality. the thing that's true in reality. >> Well, okay. If you've been listening and >> Well, okay. If you've been listening and >> Well, okay. If you've been listening and you're kind of like, "Hey, wait a you're kind of like, "Hey, wait a you're kind of like, "Hey, wait a minute. What are they even talking minute. What are they even talking minute. What are they even talking about?" We're going to land the plane. about?" We're going to land the plane. about?" We're going to land the plane. We're going to take a little break. We're going to take a little break. We're going to take a little break. We're going to um hear a word from our We're going to um hear a word from our We're going to um hear a word from our sponsor and then we will be back and sponsor and then we will be back and sponsor and then we will be back and we're going to really dive into how this we're going to really dive into how this we're going to really dive into how this beautiful doctrine that is so true and beautiful doctrine that is so true and beautiful doctrine that is so true and should permeate every aspect of our should permeate every aspect of our should permeate every aspect of our lives, how it actually does that. So, lives, how it actually does that. So, lives, how it actually does that. So, we'll be right back. Well, welcome back. we'll be right back. Well, welcome back. we'll be right back. Well, welcome back. We are talking with Rory Shiner and Kyle We are talking with Rory Shiner and Kyle We are talking with Rory Shiner and Kyle Worley about union with Christ. And so, Worley about union with Christ. And so, Worley about union with Christ. And so, I want to start by asking you guys, what I want to start by asking you guys, what I want to start by asking you guys, what difference does union with Christ make difference does union with Christ make difference does union with Christ make in your daily life? And I mean even even in your daily life? And I mean even even in your daily life? And I mean even even today, uh Rory, you're at the start of a today, uh Rory, you're at the start of a today, uh Rory, you're at the start of a day, Kyle, you and I are at the end of a day, Kyle, you and I are at the end of a day, Kyle, you and I are at the end of a day. What difference uh will it make or day. What difference uh will it make or day. What difference uh will it make or has it made today?

has it made today? has it made today? >> Uh well, again, as someone who can speak >> Uh well, again, as someone who can speak >> Uh well, again, as someone who can speak from the future being um in the next from the future being um in the next from the future being um in the next day, uh the uh I think for me it has day, uh the uh I think for me it has day, uh the uh I think for me it has been it's been it's been a huge um been it's been it's been a huge um been it's been it's been a huge um uh comfort on a on a daily level because uh comfort on a on a daily level because uh comfort on a on a daily level because I know that I am working out of a thing I know that I am working out of a thing I know that I am working out of a thing that's true of me. So I wake up and um that's true of me. So I wake up and um that's true of me. So I wake up and um uh the you know uh the the quality or uh the you know uh the the quality or uh the you know uh the the quality or non-quality of my quiet time or whether non-quality of my quiet time or whether non-quality of my quiet time or whether I skip the quiet time altogether um is I skip the quiet time altogether um is I skip the quiet time altogether um is uh the truth is that I am in Christ that uh the truth is that I am in Christ that uh the truth is that I am in Christ that I'm united to to him and that my uh you I'm united to to him and that my uh you I'm united to to him and that my uh you know identity my um the resources for know identity my um the resources for know identity my um the resources for the day's obedience um uh come out of the day's obedience um uh come out of the day's obedience um uh come out of this thing that true of me when I'm this thing that true of me when I'm this thing that true of me when I'm awake or when I'm asleep. Uh when I feel awake or when I'm asleep. Uh when I feel awake or when I'm asleep. Uh when I feel close to God or far from God. close to God or far from God. close to God or far from God. >> Yeah. You know what? I spent a large >> Yeah. You know what? I spent a large >> Yeah. You know what? I spent a large portion of my Christian life thinking portion of my Christian life thinking portion of my Christian life thinking that God's best for me ended with that God's best for me ended with that God's best for me ended with forgiveness.

forgiveness. forgiveness. And I think union with Christ reminds us And I think union with Christ reminds us And I think union with Christ reminds us um preaches to our heart that in Christ um preaches to our heart that in Christ um preaches to our heart that in Christ I am not only forgiven by God, but I'm I am not only forgiven by God, but I'm I am not only forgiven by God, but I'm welcomed by God. Um I'm a child of God. welcomed by God. Um I'm a child of God. welcomed by God. Um I'm a child of God. But that doesn't just mean that um God But that doesn't just mean that um God But that doesn't just mean that um God is the divine etches sketch and he took is the divine etches sketch and he took is the divine etches sketch and he took the record of all my wrongs and he the record of all my wrongs and he the record of all my wrongs and he erased them. It's that I've been erased them. It's that I've been erased them. It's that I've been welcomed into his presence. Um I think welcomed into his presence. Um I think welcomed into his presence. Um I think about Zephaniah uh 3 and I remember the about Zephaniah uh 3 and I remember the about Zephaniah uh 3 and I remember the first time I heard this and and I just first time I heard this and and I just first time I heard this and and I just wonder, do we think about God's love for wonder, do we think about God's love for wonder, do we think about God's love for us like this? The Lord your God is in us like this? The Lord your God is in us like this? The Lord your God is in your midst, a mighty one who will save. your midst, a mighty one who will save. your midst, a mighty one who will save. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will rejoice over you with gladness. He will quiet you by his love. He will He will quiet you by his love. He will He will quiet you by his love. He will exalt over you with loud singing. this exalt over you with loud singing. this exalt over you with loud singing. this idea of the love of God being a idea of the love of God being a idea of the love of God being a delighting love. It's not just a love of delighting love. It's not just a love of delighting love. It's not just a love of mercy um that forgives sinners, but it's mercy um that forgives sinners, but it's mercy um that forgives sinners, but it's a delighting love in his children. I a delighting love in his children. I a delighting love in his children. I think about the voice of the father over think about the voice of the father over think about the voice of the father over Christ at baptism. This is my beloved Christ at baptism. This is my beloved Christ at baptism. This is my beloved son with whom I am well pleased. When we son with whom I am well pleased. When we son with whom I am well pleased. When we are in Christ Jesus, um we are not just are in Christ Jesus, um we are not just are in Christ Jesus, um we are not just forgiven, we are beloved. And I I think forgiven, we are beloved. And I I think forgiven, we are beloved. And I I think that's the fundamental cry of every that's the fundamental cry of every that's the fundamental cry of every human heart is to come to believe that human heart is to come to believe that human heart is to come to believe that they are beloved. And in Christ, you you they are beloved. And in Christ, you you they are beloved. And in Christ, you you actually have the foundation to believe actually have the foundation to believe actually have the foundation to believe that it can be more than just a a really that it can be more than just a a really that it can be more than just a a really sweet thing or a really sappy statement.

sweet thing or a really sappy statement. sweet thing or a really sappy statement. Um Um Um it can be true, actually spiritually it can be true, actually spiritually it can be true, actually spiritually true. So it makes a great deal of true. So it makes a great deal of true. So it makes a great deal of difference to I'm somebody who struggles difference to I'm somebody who struggles difference to I'm somebody who struggles a tremendous amount with shame and a tremendous amount with shame and a tremendous amount with shame and anxiety. And coming to realize that anxiety. And coming to realize that anxiety. And coming to realize that because I am in Christ Jesus, there is because I am in Christ Jesus, there is because I am in Christ Jesus, there is not a future version of me that God is not a future version of me that God is not a future version of me that God is going to love more going to love more going to love more is a place of great freedom from having is a place of great freedom from having is a place of great freedom from having to constantly try to prove myself to to constantly try to prove myself to to constantly try to prove myself to others or or or to him as silly as that others or or or to him as silly as that others or or or to him as silly as that sounds. So yeah, there's real freedom sounds. So yeah, there's real freedom sounds. So yeah, there's real freedom there. there. there. >> So helpful. Sorry. I mean that's uh you >> So helpful. Sorry. I mean that's uh you >> So helpful. Sorry. I mean that's uh you know really well articulated and it does know really well articulated and it does know really well articulated and it does it it's so true that um the uh there's it it's so true that um the uh there's it it's so true that um the uh there's this I think there's a sense in in the this I think there's a sense in in the this I think there's a sense in in the Christian life maybe depending a little Christian life maybe depending a little Christian life maybe depending a little bit on how you're wired internally but bit on how you're wired internally but bit on how you're wired internally but where you kind of think look this is why where you kind of think look this is why where you kind of think look this is why we can't have nice things until I've we can't have nice things until I've we can't have nice things until I've sorted myself out until I've got it sorted myself out until I've got it sorted myself out until I've got it going on I'm not going to even think going on I'm not going to even think going on I'm not going to even think about union with Christ or the delight about union with Christ or the delight about union with Christ or the delight of the father in me until x y or zed is of the father in me until x y or zed is of the father in me until x y or zed is sorted out and I think the union with sorted out and I think the union with sorted out and I think the union with Christ completely flips that um that uh Christ completely flips that um that uh Christ completely flips that um that uh the ex experience of being united to the ex experience of being united to the ex experience of being united to God, loved by God, that his delight in God, loved by God, that his delight in God, loved by God, that his delight in me is as much as his delight in Jesus me is as much as his delight in Jesus me is as much as his delight in Jesus because I'm in him, because I'm in him, because I'm in him, >> uh is not the carrot at the end of >> uh is not the carrot at the end of >> uh is not the carrot at the end of sorting myself out, but the basis on sorting myself out, but the basis on sorting myself out, but the basis on which I proceed. And that uh that that's which I proceed. And that uh that that's which I proceed. And that uh that that's that I I you know I cannot underestimate

that I I you know I cannot underestimate that I I you know I cannot underestimate how much that does actually change the how much that does actually change the how much that does actually change the experience of being Christian. experience of being Christian. experience of being Christian. >> It does, doesn't it? I mean I even think >> It does, doesn't it? I mean I even think >> It does, doesn't it? I mean I even think you know every so I I just think all all you know every so I I just think all all you know every so I I just think all all of the benefits of Christ because I'm in of the benefits of Christ because I'm in of the benefits of Christ because I'm in him they're mine. And so, you know, even him they're mine. And so, you know, even him they're mine. And so, you know, even even daily just going to the father, you even daily just going to the father, you even daily just going to the father, you know, there's times that that I would know, there's times that that I would know, there's times that that I would hesitate to run. And it's like, no, no, hesitate to run. And it's like, no, no, hesitate to run. And it's like, no, no, no. I'm I have access because I'm in no. I'm I have access because I'm in no. I'm I have access because I'm in Christ because I have I have Christ's Christ because I have I have Christ's Christ because I have I have Christ's access. Like everything that's his, like access. Like everything that's his, like access. Like everything that's his, like you were saying, you know, the beloved you were saying, you know, the beloved you were saying, you know, the beloved son, he's well pleased. He's delighted son, he's well pleased. He's delighted son, he's well pleased. He's delighted in when we're in him, that's that's in when we're in him, that's that's in when we're in him, that's that's ours. And and even Kyle, you were ours. And and even Kyle, you were ours. And and even Kyle, you were talking about like, you know, we tend to talking about like, you know, we tend to talking about like, you know, we tend to think like forgiveness is the endgame of think like forgiveness is the endgame of think like forgiveness is the endgame of the Christian life. and and it is part the Christian life. and and it is part the Christian life. and and it is part of it and it's beautiful and it's of it and it's beautiful and it's of it and it's beautiful and it's glorious. I mean, praise God for glorious. I mean, praise God for glorious. I mean, praise God for forgiveness, but you're right. It's not forgiveness, but you're right. It's not forgiveness, but you're right. It's not it's not the totality or um even the the it's not the totality or um even the the it's not the totality or um even the the endgame. I think we, you know, have a endgame. I think we, you know, have a endgame. I think we, you know, have a whole talk we could do on on sharing the whole talk we could do on on sharing the whole talk we could do on on sharing the gospel, you know, that it's not just gospel, you know, that it's not just gospel, you know, that it's not just Christ died to forgive you of your sins Christ died to forgive you of your sins Christ died to forgive you of your sins and take you to heaven. Like, there's a and take you to heaven. Like, there's a and take you to heaven. Like, there's a whole lot more to the gospel. And I whole lot more to the gospel. And I whole lot more to the gospel. And I think union with Christ really starts think union with Christ really starts think union with Christ really starts getting at it. But but um Kyle, I think getting at it. But but um Kyle, I think getting at it. But but um Kyle, I think it's you in your book that you talk it's you in your book that you talk it's you in your book that you talk about this idea how so often we talk about this idea how so often we talk about this idea how so often we talk about salvation as asking Jesus into our about salvation as asking Jesus into our about salvation as asking Jesus into our heart. And and I I think that what both heart. And and I I think that what both heart. And and I I think that what both of you would say is that that actually of you would say is that that actually of you would say is that that actually we're being invited in instead of we're being invited in instead of we're being invited in instead of inviting Jesus into our heart. It's not inviting Jesus into our heart. It's not inviting Jesus into our heart. It's not individualistic and it's not just for,

individualistic and it's not just for, individualistic and it's not just for, you know, the the sole purpose is not you know, the the sole purpose is not you know, the the sole purpose is not just forgiveness, but there's something just forgiveness, but there's something just forgiveness, but there's something bigger and more beautiful going on. And bigger and more beautiful going on. And bigger and more beautiful going on. And so, what would you all how would you so, what would you all how would you so, what would you all how would you talk about this idea of salvation being talk about this idea of salvation being talk about this idea of salvation being tied into union with Christ? What's a tied into union with Christ? What's a tied into union with Christ? What's a better way to think about it? Our own better way to think about it? Our own better way to think about it? Our own salvation. salvation. salvation. >> Yeah. Well, I I listen, I am so grateful >> Yeah. Well, I I listen, I am so grateful >> Yeah. Well, I I listen, I am so grateful that I heard a pastor stand before me that I heard a pastor stand before me that I heard a pastor stand before me and say, "If you have heard the gospel and say, "If you have heard the gospel and say, "If you have heard the gospel and want to receive Christ, pray and ask and want to receive Christ, pray and ask and want to receive Christ, pray and ask God into your heart." Because I prayed God into your heart." Because I prayed God into your heart." Because I prayed that prayer in a in a small East Texas that prayer in a in a small East Texas that prayer in a in a small East Texas uh church, and I am truly grateful for uh church, and I am truly grateful for uh church, and I am truly grateful for it. The Lord saved me. Uh and like I say it. The Lord saved me. Uh and like I say it. The Lord saved me. Uh and like I say in the book, um I was convinced the most in the book, um I was convinced the most in the book, um I was convinced the most wonderful thing that had happened is wonderful thing that had happened is wonderful thing that had happened is that Christ had come to live in my that Christ had come to live in my that Christ had come to live in my heart. And listen, there are times in heart. And listen, there are times in heart. And listen, there are times in which the New Testament talks about which the New Testament talks about which the New Testament talks about Christ in us. You know, Christ in me, Christ in us. You know, Christ in me, Christ in us. You know, Christ in me, the hope of glory. It's no longer I who the hope of glory. It's no longer I who the hope of glory. It's no longer I who live but Christ who lives within me. The live but Christ who lives within me. The live but Christ who lives within me. The overwhelming emphasis in the New overwhelming emphasis in the New overwhelming emphasis in the New Testament is us in Christ, not Christ Testament is us in Christ, not Christ Testament is us in Christ, not Christ and us. But it is a mutual indwelling. I and us. But it is a mutual indwelling. I and us. But it is a mutual indwelling. I I would say that I have found it to be I would say that I have found it to be I would say that I have found it to be more helpful although sometimes less more helpful although sometimes less more helpful although sometimes less actionable uh so to speak when you're actionable uh so to speak when you're actionable uh so to speak when you're proclaiming the gospel to invite people proclaiming the gospel to invite people proclaiming the gospel to invite people to receive what God has for them in to receive what God has for them in to receive what God has for them in Christ. Imagine that God is inviting you Christ. Imagine that God is inviting you Christ. Imagine that God is inviting you to live with him. um that uh he's to live with him. um that uh he's to live with him. um that uh he's inviting you into his home which is in inviting you into his home which is in inviting you into his home which is in Christ Jesus and that when you place Christ Jesus and that when you place Christ Jesus and that when you place your faith in him, faith is the gift your faith in him, faith is the gift your faith in him, faith is the gift that God gives us so we can give that God gives us so we can give that God gives us so we can give ourselves back to God.

ourselves back to God. ourselves back to God. >> I think the only place that you get the >> I think the only place that you get the >> I think the only place that you get the language of Christ coming into your language of Christ coming into your language of Christ coming into your heart or dwelling your heart is in heart or dwelling your heart is in heart or dwelling your heart is in Ephesians 3. Um someone might correct me Ephesians 3. Um someone might correct me Ephesians 3. Um someone might correct me on that. So I just think and uh let's on that. So I just think and uh let's on that. So I just think and uh let's just give it a moratorum. Let's have 10 just give it a moratorum. Let's have 10 just give it a moratorum. Let's have 10 years of not saying that. And um in our years of not saying that. And um in our years of not saying that. And um in our evangelism, let's invite people into evangelism, let's invite people into evangelism, let's invite people into Christ that Jesus is Lord, that he um Christ that Jesus is Lord, that he um Christ that Jesus is Lord, that he um God's inviting you uh to be in him. And God's inviting you uh to be in him. And God's inviting you uh to be in him. And then after 10 years, let's we can revive then after 10 years, let's we can revive then after 10 years, let's we can revive uh you know that language [laughter] uh you know that language [laughter] uh you know that language [laughter] again for a bit. But [gasps] again for a bit. But [gasps] again for a bit. But [gasps] >> well, I would love to just toss out a >> well, I would love to just toss out a >> well, I would love to just toss out a couple scenarios um you know that the couple scenarios um you know that the couple scenarios um you know that the women listening, me, us, we all walk women listening, me, us, we all walk women listening, me, us, we all walk through life dealing with all these through life dealing with all these through life dealing with all these different things. And I want to talk different things. And I want to talk different things. And I want to talk about just very specifically ways that about just very specifically ways that about just very specifically ways that union with Christ actually comforts us, union with Christ actually comforts us, union with Christ actually comforts us, actually ministers to us, actually actually ministers to us, actually actually ministers to us, actually strengthens us, actually reminds us of strengthens us, actually reminds us of strengthens us, actually reminds us of of true truths. And so you guys might of true truths. And so you guys might of true truths. And so you guys might have some examples of your own. Feel have some examples of your own. Feel have some examples of your own. Feel free to um to, you know, toss them out free to um to, you know, toss them out free to um to, you know, toss them out there and and talk about um that. But there and and talk about um that. But there and and talk about um that. But just think about the young woman who is, just think about the young woman who is, just think about the young woman who is, you know, maybe early 20s and she's you know, maybe early 20s and she's you know, maybe early 20s and she's trying to figure life out and she trying to figure life out and she trying to figure life out and she doesn't really know like who she is.

doesn't really know like who she is. doesn't really know like who she is. It's really it's an identity, you know, It's really it's an identity, you know, It's really it's an identity, you know, crisis of sorts of of trying to know crisis of sorts of of trying to know crisis of sorts of of trying to know like where she's going to fit in, what like where she's going to fit in, what like where she's going to fit in, what she's going to do with life. So, how she's going to do with life. So, how she's going to do with life. So, how does how does union with Christ, how does how does union with Christ, how does how does union with Christ, how does this matter to her at all? What does this matter to her at all? What does this matter to her at all? What difference does it make to her? difference does it make to her? difference does it make to her? >> Oh, goodness gracious, Courtney, this is >> Oh, goodness gracious, Courtney, this is >> Oh, goodness gracious, Courtney, this is a good question. I'm looking at some of a good question. I'm looking at some of a good question. I'm looking at some of the ones that you've outlined for us the ones that you've outlined for us the ones that you've outlined for us here, and I just think about um I know here, and I just think about um I know here, and I just think about um I know that, you know, every time that we pose that, you know, every time that we pose that, you know, every time that we pose a hypothetical about where somebody's a hypothetical about where somebody's a hypothetical about where somebody's at, there is somebody who is really at, there is somebody who is really at, there is somebody who is really >> there. Um when I think about uh the the >> there. Um when I think about uh the the >> there. Um when I think about uh the the isolation that comes with loneliness, I isolation that comes with loneliness, I isolation that comes with loneliness, I think that our culture often outlines think that our culture often outlines think that our culture often outlines for people um that with our differences for people um that with our differences for people um that with our differences in particular um you either have to in particular um you either have to in particular um you either have to deify your differences or you have to deify your differences or you have to deify your differences or you have to deny your differences. That seems to be deny your differences. That seems to be deny your differences. That seems to be the two road maps that the culture is. the two road maps that the culture is. the two road maps that the culture is. You got to deny differences. Act like You got to deny differences. Act like You got to deny differences. Act like there's nothing there. Um I can't fit in there's nothing there. Um I can't fit in there's nothing there. Um I can't fit in anywhere uh because I'm not like these anywhere uh because I'm not like these anywhere uh because I'm not like these people. So you deify your differences or people. So you deify your differences or people. So you deify your differences or you deny them. I have to basically you deny them. I have to basically you deny them. I have to basically become something other than I am in become something other than I am in become something other than I am in order to fit in. And I think that the order to fit in. And I think that the order to fit in. And I think that the good news of union with Christ is that good news of union with Christ is that good news of union with Christ is that in Christ our differences are not made in Christ our differences are not made in Christ our differences are not made everything and they're not made nothing.

everything and they're not made nothing. everything and they're not made nothing. They're dignified. They're they're They're dignified. They're they're They're dignified. They're they're neither deified nor denied. And so I neither deified nor denied. And so I neither deified nor denied. And so I think that um the doctrine of view of think that um the doctrine of view of think that um the doctrine of view of Christ says, "Hey, listen. You don't Christ says, "Hey, listen. You don't Christ says, "Hey, listen. You don't have to give up all of the things that have to give up all of the things that have to give up all of the things that make you you. It's just important to make you you. It's just important to make you you. It's just important to realize that none of them are realize that none of them are realize that none of them are determinative for your worth or your determinative for your worth or your determinative for your worth or your value. But what God has said is true of value. But what God has said is true of value. But what God has said is true of you in Christ becomes the new determiner you in Christ becomes the new determiner you in Christ becomes the new determiner of your value. And he has said that of your value. And he has said that of your value. And he has said that you're beloved and holy and perfect and you're beloved and holy and perfect and you're beloved and holy and perfect and worthy. Not because that's what every worthy. Not because that's what every worthy. Not because that's what every day of your life looks like, but because day of your life looks like, but because day of your life looks like, but because you've placed your faith in Jesus and he you've placed your faith in Jesus and he you've placed your faith in Jesus and he is all of those things. Um, and so I I is all of those things. Um, and so I I is all of those things. Um, and so I I think that being welcomed um as we are think that being welcomed um as we are think that being welcomed um as we are into fellowship with God um that we into fellowship with God um that we into fellowship with God um that we might be transformed is a is good news might be transformed is a is good news might be transformed is a is good news for lonely and isolated people. for lonely and isolated people. for lonely and isolated people. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Rory, let me >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Rory, let me >> Yeah. Yeah. That's good. Rory, let me ask you this one then. What about a ask you this one then. What about a ask you this one then. What about a young woman who is just longing, maybe young woman who is just longing, maybe young woman who is just longing, maybe longing for children, maybe longing for longing for children, maybe longing for longing for children, maybe longing for a spouse, maybe longing for resolution a spouse, maybe longing for resolution a spouse, maybe longing for resolution or um you know just the suffering to or um you know just the suffering to or um you know just the suffering to end. What what would you say to her? How end. What what would you say to her? How end. What what would you say to her? How does union with Christ matter in our in does union with Christ matter in our in does union with Christ matter in our in our unmet longings?

our unmet longings? our unmet longings? >> Yeah, that's great. And uh you know, a >> Yeah, that's great. And uh you know, a >> Yeah, that's great. And uh you know, a few things I think uh Kyle's already few things I think uh Kyle's already few things I think uh Kyle's already picked up on. So, uh firstly, um the picked up on. So, uh firstly, um the picked up on. So, uh firstly, um the being in when we're in Christ, we don't being in when we're in Christ, we don't being in when we're in Christ, we don't cease to be creatures. So, it's not a cease to be creatures. So, it's not a cease to be creatures. So, it's not a transition from being a creature to transition from being a creature to transition from being a creature to being uh divine or or or whatever. So we being uh divine or or or whatever. So we being uh divine or or or whatever. So we still bring all our creaturlininess to still bring all our creaturlininess to still bring all our creaturlininess to us to that which involves you know whole us to that which involves you know whole us to that which involves you know whole processes of of grief and longing and I processes of of grief and longing and I processes of of grief and longing and I don't think there's any um pastoral don't think there's any um pastoral don't think there's any um pastoral future in pretending things that don't future in pretending things that don't future in pretending things that don't hurt that hurt don't hurt or things that hurt that hurt don't hurt or things that hurt that hurt don't hurt or things that unmet longings don't involve a whole unmet longings don't involve a whole unmet longings don't involve a whole bunch of uh grief and processing and bunch of uh grief and processing and bunch of uh grief and processing and sorrow and um uh the I think what what sorrow and um uh the I think what what sorrow and um uh the I think what what union with Christ brings to the table in union with Christ brings to the table in union with Christ brings to the table in that is not here's a here's a pill you that is not here's a here's a pill you that is not here's a here's a pill you can take that will make you not feel can take that will make you not feel can take that will make you not feel what you're feeling or not acknowledge what you're feeling or not acknowledge what you're feeling or not acknowledge uh these things and as a in our uh these things and as a in our uh these things and as a in our creaturliness that that's part of the uh creaturliness that that's part of the uh creaturliness that that's part of the uh the human experience and it's part of the human experience and it's part of the human experience and it's part of the experience that God uh invites us to the experience that God uh invites us to the experience that God uh invites us to bring into um uh into him so we don't we bring into um uh into him so we don't we bring into um uh into him so we don't we don't become generic you know human don't become generic you know human don't become generic you know human 1.6.0 O section 9 unit 2 we uh come in 1.6.0 O section 9 unit 2 we uh come in 1.6.0 O section 9 unit 2 we uh come in our particularities of uh unmet longings our particularities of uh unmet longings our particularities of uh unmet longings and griefs and and sorrows. Um they are and griefs and and sorrows. Um they are and griefs and and sorrows. Um they are they are what comes into uh our union they are what comes into uh our union they are what comes into uh our union with with with Christ and I think in the with with with Christ and I think in the with with with Christ and I think in the uh in the church I think that the church

uh in the church I think that the church uh in the church I think that the church uh is often uh is often uh is often caught up with that union language. So caught up with that union language. So caught up with that union language. So body of Christ is a union a union idea body of Christ is a union a union idea body of Christ is a union a union idea and um as we bring our selves uh into and um as we bring our selves uh into and um as we bring our selves uh into the body of Christ that's both in terms the body of Christ that's both in terms the body of Christ that's both in terms of gifting so the to the the first of gifting so the to the the first of gifting so the to the the first scenario the the the the young woman scenario the the the the young woman scenario the the the the young woman that feels like where do I fit and who that feels like where do I fit and who that feels like where do I fit and who am I um the I guess the confidence they am I um the I guess the confidence they am I um the I guess the confidence they can have is that they are um uh however can have is that they are um uh however can have is that they are um uh however it is they're wide that's not by it is they're wide that's not by it is they're wide that's not by accident that's the the sovereign work accident that's the the sovereign work accident that's the the sovereign work of God the spirit in uh making you uh of God the spirit in uh making you uh of God the spirit in uh making you uh the hand, foot, eyes or whatever of the the hand, foot, eyes or whatever of the the hand, foot, eyes or whatever of the of the body. And I think that that is of the body. And I think that that is of the body. And I think that that is also true uh in our also true uh in our also true uh in our grief unmet longings that we we bring grief unmet longings that we we bring grief unmet longings that we we bring that into the body of Christ for um that that into the body of Christ for um that that into the body of Christ for um that actual tactical expressions. I think I actual tactical expressions. I think I actual tactical expressions. I think I think one of the ways that we experience think one of the ways that we experience think one of the ways that we experience the body, the the doctrine of union with the body, the the doctrine of union with the body, the the doctrine of union with Christ is in the actual life to life Christ is in the actual life to life Christ is in the actual life to life analog showing up at the same time in analog showing up at the same time in analog showing up at the same time in the same building um experience of oh the same building um experience of oh the same building um experience of oh you're my sister and I am connected to you're my sister and I am connected to you're my sister and I am connected to you forever in Christ and at the moment you forever in Christ and at the moment you forever in Christ and at the moment my sister is sad or whatever. I think my sister is sad or whatever. I think my sister is sad or whatever. I think that's that's part of the the um the that's that's part of the the um the that's that's part of the the um the implication of our pastoral care is that implication of our pastoral care is that implication of our pastoral care is that we um we we bring that one one to

we um we we bring that one one to we um we we bring that one one to another. I think I think the trick with another. I think I think the trick with another. I think I think the trick with you know the the thing with pastoral you know the the thing with pastoral you know the the thing with pastoral care is to kind of underpromise and care is to kind of underpromise and care is to kind of underpromise and overd deliver to um to say yeah there's overd deliver to um to say yeah there's overd deliver to um to say yeah there's mourning with those who mourn weep with mourning with those who mourn weep with mourning with those who mourn weep with those who who weep and in that process those who who weep and in that process those who who weep and in that process of doing that I think we receive the of doing that I think we receive the of doing that I think we receive the kind of tangible comforts that come from kind of tangible comforts that come from kind of tangible comforts that come from being uh members together of of his being uh members together of of his being uh members together of of his body. I'm so glad you talked because we, body. I'm so glad you talked because we, body. I'm so glad you talked because we, you know, we're coming to the end of you know, we're coming to the end of you know, we're coming to the end of this conversation and we really didn't this conversation and we really didn't this conversation and we really didn't even touch on the corporate aspect of even touch on the corporate aspect of even touch on the corporate aspect of our union with Christ because we're not our union with Christ because we're not our union with Christ because we're not the only ones that are united to Christ. the only ones that are united to Christ. the only ones that are united to Christ. It's not just me and Jesus, right? We're It's not just me and Jesus, right? We're It's not just me and Jesus, right? We're united into God's people and uh so united into God's people and uh so united into God's people and uh so again, I'm going to commend both Rory's again, I'm going to commend both Rory's again, I'm going to commend both Rory's book and Kyle's book that'll both be book and Kyle's book that'll both be book and Kyle's book that'll both be linked in the show notes for that. They linked in the show notes for that. They linked in the show notes for that. They both give a wonderful explanation of the both give a wonderful explanation of the both give a wonderful explanation of the corporate benefits and blessings and corporate benefits and blessings and corporate benefits and blessings and responsibilities of of union with responsibilities of of union with responsibilities of of union with Christ. Well, can you all tell us can Christ. Well, can you all tell us can Christ. Well, can you all tell us can you um a time that personally union with you um a time that personally union with you um a time that personally union with Christ really comforted you or or Christ really comforted you or or Christ really comforted you or or strengthened you or sustained you in strengthened you or sustained you in strengthened you or sustained you in some way?

some way? some way? >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I can think of many >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I can think of many >> Yeah. Yeah. I mean I can think of many times when I was writing the book. It times when I was writing the book. It times when I was writing the book. It was the uh most challenging years of was the uh most challenging years of was the uh most challenging years of pastoral leadership and family pastoral leadership and family pastoral leadership and family leadership I experienced. It felt like a leadership I experienced. It felt like a leadership I experienced. It felt like a uh the the French novelist and uh the the French novelist and uh the the French novelist and philosopher France Kofka said that a philosopher France Kofka said that a philosopher France Kofka said that a book should be an axe for the frozen sea book should be an axe for the frozen sea book should be an axe for the frozen sea that is within you. Basically like when that is within you. Basically like when that is within you. Basically like when you're writing a book or reading a book, you're writing a book or reading a book, you're writing a book or reading a book, you should be trying to bust up the you should be trying to bust up the you should be trying to bust up the frozen sea that is within you. And frozen sea that is within you. And frozen sea that is within you. And writing this book on you with Christ was writing this book on you with Christ was writing this book on you with Christ was like that every every time I sat down to like that every every time I sat down to like that every every time I sat down to write to try to remind myself who I write to try to remind myself who I write to try to remind myself who I actually am in Christ Jesus. And um actually am in Christ Jesus. And um actually am in Christ Jesus. And um yeah, I uh we were a f we were fostering yeah, I uh we were a f we were fostering yeah, I uh we were a f we were fostering at the time as a foster family and uh at the time as a foster family and uh at the time as a foster family and uh we've since adopted um a little girl we've since adopted um a little girl we've since adopted um a little girl through that process, but we had you through that process, but we had you through that process, but we had you know a series of foster kids come know a series of foster kids come know a series of foster kids come through and you love them and it it was through and you love them and it it was through and you love them and it it was so difficult and so challenging to see so difficult and so challenging to see so difficult and so challenging to see them go and our family was just going them go and our family was just going them go and our family was just going through that journey and we were glad to through that journey and we were glad to through that journey and we were glad to love them for as long as we had them. love them for as long as we had them. love them for as long as we had them. then there'd be this tremendous loss um then there'd be this tremendous loss um then there'd be this tremendous loss um that you experienced even though you that you experienced even though you that you experienced even though you were happy that they were being reunited were happy that they were being reunited were happy that they were being reunited with with healthy [snorts] with with healthy [snorts] with with healthy [snorts] bi biological family and um so there was bi biological family and um so there was bi biological family and um so there was this real deep sadness of loss. Uh I'm a this real deep sadness of loss. Uh I'm a this real deep sadness of loss. Uh I'm a church planter and we were 3 years in church planter and we were 3 years in church planter and we were 3 years in four years in and we were encountering four years in and we were encountering four years in and we were encountering some real challenging waters and some real challenging waters and some real challenging waters and difficult things uh as a church plant difficult things uh as a church plant difficult things uh as a church plant and um I would sit down to just try to and um I would sit down to just try to and um I would sit down to just try to remind myself who I am in Christ. And so remind myself who I am in Christ. And so remind myself who I am in Christ. And so I would just say if you are someone for I would just say if you are someone for I would just say if you are someone for whom this season is incredibly whom this season is incredibly whom this season is incredibly personally, professionally complicated

personally, professionally complicated personally, professionally complicated or painful, I would implore you if you or painful, I would implore you if you or painful, I would implore you if you are a believer, spend some time are a believer, spend some time are a believer, spend some time meditating on the doctrine of union with meditating on the doctrine of union with meditating on the doctrine of union with Christ, slowly read through Ephesians 1. Christ, slowly read through Ephesians 1. Christ, slowly read through Ephesians 1. Read it out loud. Find an audio version Read it out loud. Find an audio version Read it out loud. Find an audio version of the Bible and let it wash over you. of the Bible and let it wash over you. of the Bible and let it wash over you. Memorize portions of uh Romans 6 1-1 or Memorize portions of uh Romans 6 1-1 or Memorize portions of uh Romans 6 1-1 or uh Romans chapter 8. What shall separate uh Romans chapter 8. What shall separate uh Romans chapter 8. What shall separate us from the love of God? Nothing will be us from the love of God? Nothing will be us from the love of God? Nothing will be able to separate us from the love of God able to separate us from the love of God able to separate us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. The it is really worth in Christ Jesus. The it is really worth in Christ Jesus. The it is really worth giving. This is one of those doctrines giving. This is one of those doctrines giving. This is one of those doctrines that it's best to discover in the light that it's best to discover in the light that it's best to discover in the light so that when the darkness comes, you can so that when the darkness comes, you can so that when the darkness comes, you can stand on it. But if you are in the stand on it. But if you are in the stand on it. But if you are in the darkness, this is the best way to start darkness, this is the best way to start darkness, this is the best way to start uh uh lighting a candle so to speak with uh uh lighting a candle so to speak with uh uh lighting a candle so to speak with truth. Uh, look for me and now I'm I truth. Uh, look for me and now I'm I truth. Uh, look for me and now I'm I should say culturally Australians are a should say culturally Australians are a should say culturally Australians are a bit more like the British are a little bit more like the British are a little bit more like the British are a little more um reticent to disclose personal more um reticent to disclose personal more um reticent to disclose personal details. So I just trust this is between details. So I just trust this is between details. So I just trust this is between the three of us and the three of us and the three of us and >> absolutely nobody else listen >> absolutely nobody else listen >> absolutely nobody else listen >> absolutely well that's just the >> absolutely well that's just the >> absolutely well that's just the assurance that I needed. I if I can be a assurance that I needed. I if I can be a assurance that I needed. I if I can be a bit personal, I think I and I know not bit personal, I think I and I know not bit personal, I think I and I know not everyone's like this and I'm married to everyone's like this and I'm married to everyone's like this and I'm married to someone who's not like this, so I know someone who's not like this, so I know someone who's not like this, so I know it's not everyone, but I think I've just it's not everyone, but I think I've just it's not everyone, but I think I've just by wiring or whatever. I've got one of by wiring or whatever. I've got one of by wiring or whatever. I've got one of those quite um busy brains, the kind of those quite um busy brains, the kind of those quite um busy brains, the kind of brains that wake you up at 2:00 in the brains that wake you up at 2:00 in the brains that wake you up at 2:00 in the morning and think, "Oh my goodness, is morning and think, "Oh my goodness, is morning and think, "Oh my goodness, is it all true or am I really Christian?"

it all true or am I really Christian?" it all true or am I really Christian?" or um uh in that plain analogy, I'm or um uh in that plain analogy, I'm or um uh in that plain analogy, I'm definitely the the second person, the definitely the the second person, the definitely the the second person, the more kind of prone to think and more kind of prone to think and more kind of prone to think and overthink and rethink and um all those overthink and rethink and um all those overthink and rethink and um all those all those kinds of things. So, just a all those kinds of things. So, just a all those kinds of things. So, just a shout out if you're that person and I shout out if you're that person and I shout out if you're that person and I married someone who's not that person. married someone who's not that person. married someone who's not that person. My my wife's from a non-Christian My my wife's from a non-Christian My my wife's from a non-Christian background. The moment she became a background. The moment she became a background. The moment she became a Christian, she's like, "This is Christian, she's like, "This is Christian, she's like, "This is definitely true and I'm definitely and definitely true and I'm definitely and definitely true and I'm definitely and she just is that kind of person." And uh she just is that kind of person." And uh she just is that kind of person." And uh and I'm I'm wired differently. So and I'm I'm wired differently. So and I'm I'm wired differently. So I I've found it hugely helpful I think I I've found it hugely helpful I think I I've found it hugely helpful I think uh with that kind of uh with that kind of uh with that kind of mind to the um the doctrine of union of mind to the um the doctrine of union of mind to the um the doctrine of union of Christ has given me this kind of triage Christ has given me this kind of triage Christ has given me this kind of triage um capacity to think as the and this is um capacity to think as the and this is um capacity to think as the and this is the um maybe oversharing but the way I the um maybe oversharing but the way I the um maybe oversharing but the way I think about it now is that my my my mind think about it now is that my my my mind think about it now is that my my my mind is like it's like it's got a door at the is like it's like it's got a door at the is like it's like it's got a door at the front of it and I can have some I can front of it and I can have some I can front of it and I can have some I can exercise I can't exercise much control exercise I can't exercise much control exercise I can't exercise much control over who knocks on the door cuz that's a over who knocks on the door cuz that's a over who knocks on the door cuz that's a public access thing. Anyone can knock on public access thing. Anyone can knock on public access thing. Anyone can knock on the door. Um, but union with Christ has the door. Um, but union with Christ has the door. Um, but union with Christ has given me a much better sense of opening given me a much better sense of opening given me a much better sense of opening the door and saying, "What are you doing the door and saying, "What are you doing the door and saying, "What are you doing here?" And is this a conversation we here?" And is this a conversation we here?" And is this a conversation we really need to have right now? But if really need to have right now? But if really need to have right now? But if it's this kind of ambiguous, you know, it's this kind of ambiguous, you know, it's this kind of ambiguous, you know, 2:00 in the morning, oh, you know, God 2:00 in the morning, oh, you know, God 2:00 in the morning, oh, you know, God doesn't really love you or um, you're doesn't really love you or um, you're doesn't really love you or um, you're not really Christian or God's really not really Christian or God's really not really Christian or God's really disappointed with you right now. Um, I disappointed with you right now. Um, I disappointed with you right now. Um, I can now to a to an increasing degree can now to a to an increasing degree can now to a to an increasing degree say, "What are you doing here?" Like, say, "What are you doing here?" Like, say, "What are you doing here?" Like, "What how what what is the A, this is a

"What how what what is the A, this is a "What how what what is the A, this is a really inconvenient time. 2:00 in the really inconvenient time. 2:00 in the really inconvenient time. 2:00 in the morning is not good for either of us. morning is not good for either of us. morning is not good for either of us. And B, I I what you're saying is is And B, I I what you're saying is is And B, I I what you're saying is is literally not true. like it it's not literally not true. like it it's not literally not true. like it it's not it's it's just a metaphysical it's it's just a metaphysical it's it's just a metaphysical impossibility that God isn't delighted impossibility that God isn't delighted impossibility that God isn't delighted in me because he because of where I am in me because he because of where I am in me because he because of where I am in Jesus. And um that's been a long slow in Jesus. And um that's been a long slow in Jesus. And um that's been a long slow process but a really fruitful one of process but a really fruitful one of process but a really fruitful one of being able to um to manage uh those being able to um to manage uh those being able to um to manage uh those kinds of uh doubts and and uh and fears kinds of uh doubts and and uh and fears kinds of uh doubts and and uh and fears in a uh in a more kind of robust way. I in a uh in a more kind of robust way. I in a uh in a more kind of robust way. I love that because that's exactly I think love that because that's exactly I think love that because that's exactly I think that that there is a and I think we that that there is a and I think we that that there is a and I think we started the conversation talking about started the conversation talking about started the conversation talking about the freedom of and the joy of this that the freedom of and the joy of this that the freedom of and the joy of this that as you kind of grow in your as you kind of grow in your as you kind of grow in your understanding of the the rock solid you understanding of the the rock solid you understanding of the the rock solid you know it is it is a non-negotiable. It is know it is it is a non-negotiable. It is know it is it is a non-negotiable. It is it is true and it is eternally true. Uh it is true and it is eternally true. Uh it is true and it is eternally true. Uh because it all resides in Christ. It it because it all resides in Christ. It it because it all resides in Christ. It it all depends on Christ. It it doesn't all depends on Christ. It it doesn't all depends on Christ. It it doesn't depend on me. my fickle heart like Kyle depend on me. my fickle heart like Kyle depend on me. my fickle heart like Kyle said or my doubting mind or or you know said or my doubting mind or or you know said or my doubting mind or or you know the strength of my faith. It it all the strength of my faith. It it all the strength of my faith. It it all depends on Christ. And so it is the depends on Christ. And so it is the depends on Christ. And so it is the thing that has grounded me and given me thing that has grounded me and given me thing that has grounded me and given me this this freedom to freedom to fail, this this freedom to freedom to fail, this this freedom to freedom to fail, freedom to freedom to whatever. It's freedom to freedom to whatever. It's freedom to freedom to whatever. It's just a it's like I had prayed for so just a it's like I had prayed for so just a it's like I had prayed for so long for the gift of self- forgetfulness long for the gift of self- forgetfulness long for the gift of self- forgetfulness and I feel like union with Christ is

and I feel like union with Christ is and I feel like union with Christ is what finally came in and allowed me to what finally came in and allowed me to what finally came in and allowed me to even grow in that a little bit. Um and even grow in that a little bit. Um and even grow in that a little bit. Um and it's just yeah it's just a beautiful it's just yeah it's just a beautiful it's just yeah it's just a beautiful thing. So I would just commend anybody thing. So I would just commend anybody thing. So I would just commend anybody listening, please pick up Kyle and listening, please pick up Kyle and listening, please pick up Kyle and Rory's books. So Rory's is called One Rory's books. So Rory's is called One Rory's books. So Rory's is called One Forever, the transforming power of being Forever, the transforming power of being Forever, the transforming power of being in Christ and Kyle's is called Home with in Christ and Kyle's is called Home with in Christ and Kyle's is called Home with God, Our Union with Christ. They are God, Our Union with Christ. They are God, Our Union with Christ. They are excellent. They are accessible, they are excellent. They are accessible, they are excellent. They are accessible, they are encouraging, they are edifying, they are encouraging, they are edifying, they are encouraging, they are edifying, they are true, they are well written. Um, so true, they are well written. Um, so true, they are well written. Um, so please pick those those two books up. please pick those those two books up. please pick those those two books up. Um, but Rory and Kyle, thanks for for Um, but Rory and Kyle, thanks for for Um, but Rory and Kyle, thanks for for joining us. And friends, we hope that joining us. And friends, we hope that joining us. And friends, we hope that you have been encouraged and you have been encouraged and you have been encouraged and strengthened [music] and edified by this strengthened [music] and edified by this strengthened [music] and edified by this episode of The Deep Dish. If so, please episode of The Deep Dish. If so, please episode of The Deep Dish. If so, please consider sharing it, liking it, leaving consider sharing it, liking it, leaving consider sharing it, liking it, leaving a review, and we will see you next time a review, and we will see you next time a review, and we will see you next time on [music] The Deep Dish.