Loving the Church When You've Been Hurt [TGC Podcast - Ep. 379]

let me pray for us and then we will get let me pray for us and then we will get into the conversation um father we thank into the conversation um father we thank into the conversation um father we thank you for this time we thank you for this you for this time we thank you for this you for this time we thank you for this Gathering of women from local churches Gathering of women from local churches Gathering of women from local churches all over the country and around the all over the country and around the all over the country and around the world Lord we know that you have um world Lord we know that you have um world Lord we know that you have um established the local church for the established the local church for the established the local church for the good of your people and it is your good of your people and it is your good of your people and it is your church but it is also a place where um church but it is also a place where um church but it is also a place where um sometimes we are hurt Lord where um sin sometimes we are hurt Lord where um sin sometimes we are hurt Lord where um sin still impacts Us in where we have wounds still impacts Us in where we have wounds still impacts Us in where we have wounds and so um father we bring that heaviness and so um father we bring that heaviness and so um father we bring that heaviness and that hurt before you in this time and that hurt before you in this time and that hurt before you in this time and ask that you would send your spirit and ask that you would send your spirit and ask that you would send your spirit to work Among Us God that he might speak to work Among Us God that he might speak to work Among Us God that he might speak through us up here that we might be able through us up here that we might be able through us up here that we might be able to offer some encouragement to these to offer some encouragement to these to offer some encouragement to these women um and that you would be doing women um and that you would be doing women um and that you would be doing your healing work um in each of our your healing work um in each of our your healing work um in each of our hearts we pray all this um in Christ's hearts we pray all this um in Christ's hearts we pray all this um in Christ's name name name amen well as we uh move into the amen well as we uh move into the amen well as we uh move into the conversation we just want to um give a conversation we just want to um give a conversation we just want to um give a few clarifications this is a big topic few clarifications this is a big topic few clarifications this is a big topic and so we want to give you some context and so we want to give you some context and so we want to give you some context for how we're thinking about it and what for how we're thinking about it and what for how we're thinking about it and what our approach is for this um short time our approach is for this um short time our approach is for this um short time the 45 minutes goes faster than we the 45 minutes goes faster than we the 45 minutes goes faster than we expect sometimes so um you know Church expect sometimes so um you know Church expect sometimes so um you know Church hurt could range from a one-on-one hurt could range from a one-on-one hurt could range from a one-on-one interpersonal conflict all the way up to interpersonal conflict all the way up to interpersonal conflict all the way up to some sort of very public Scandal of a some sort of very public Scandal of a some sort of very public Scandal of a celebrity pastor and we can't really celebrity pastor and we can't really celebrity pastor and we can't really engage all of the ins and outs of those engage all of the ins and outs of those engage all of the ins and outs of those things and so for the purposes of this things and so for the purposes of this things and so for the purposes of this conversation we thought it would be most conversation we thought it would be most conversation we thought it would be most helpful to keep it in the realm of a helpful to keep it in the realm of a helpful to keep it in the realm of a local church or maybe denominational local church or maybe denominational local church or maybe denominational level so that's kind of the context that level so that's kind of the context that level so that's kind of the context that we're envisioning and our conversation

we're envisioning and our conversation we're envisioning and our conversation will stay in the realm of hurt not abuse will stay in the realm of hurt not abuse will stay in the realm of hurt not abuse and so we want to be careful to make a and so we want to be careful to make a and so we want to be careful to make a distinction there and to say you know we distinction there and to say you know we distinction there and to say you know we are not professional counselors um we are not professional counselors um we are not professional counselors um we and so uh some of the things that we and so uh some of the things that we and so uh some of the things that we might say could look different in the might say could look different in the might say could look different in the context of abuse and so we do want to be context of abuse and so we do want to be context of abuse and so we do want to be careful to say we're talking about hurt careful to say we're talking about hurt careful to say we're talking about hurt um if you're interested specifically in um if you're interested specifically in um if you're interested specifically in learning more about spiritual abuse we learning more about spiritual abuse we learning more about spiritual abuse we would recommend to you the book bully would recommend to you the book bully would recommend to you the book bully pulpit by Dr Mike Krueger and it is pulpit by Dr Mike Krueger and it is pulpit by Dr Mike Krueger and it is available in the bookstore it's a very available in the bookstore it's a very available in the bookstore it's a very helpful consideration of spiritual abuse helpful consideration of spiritual abuse helpful consideration of spiritual abuse in particular um so you might want to in particular um so you might want to in particular um so you might want to check that out um and I also want to check that out um and I also want to check that out um and I also want to plug a book about church hurt before we plug a book about church hurt before we plug a book about church hurt before we get into it this um new devotional by get into it this um new devotional by get into it this um new devotional by our friend Megan Hill um 40 days um 40 our friend Megan Hill um 40 days um 40 our friend Megan Hill um 40 days um 40 days of devotions on church hert called days of devotions on church hert called days of devotions on church hert called sign on Sunday is an excellent resource sign on Sunday is an excellent resource sign on Sunday is an excellent resource um it's a new one out and it's also um it's a new one out and it's also um it's a new one out and it's also available in the bookstore well as we uh available in the bookstore well as we uh available in the bookstore well as we uh begin to get into the conversation I'd begin to get into the conversation I'd begin to get into the conversation I'd love for just each of you to share a bit love for just each of you to share a bit love for just each of you to share a bit a bit about why this topic um matters to a bit about why this topic um matters to a bit about why this topic um matters to you why this is um close to your heart you why this is um close to your heart you why this is um close to your heart sure um not sure I'm sure um not sure I'm sure um not sure I'm on well let's try this one we'll just on well let's try this one we'll just on well let's try this one we'll just swap okay I think it matters swap okay I think it matters swap okay I think it matters because Jesus Christ laid down his life because Jesus Christ laid down his life because Jesus Christ laid down his life for the for the for the church and and the church is church and and the church is church and and the church is eternal and it matters to me because you eternal and it matters to me because you eternal and it matters to me because you matter to God you're an image bear and matter to God you're an image bear and matter to God you're an image bear and if you're in this room there's a story

if you're in this room there's a story if you're in this room there's a story that he's written in your life about the that he's written in your life about the that he's written in your life about the church and I just want to say I'm church and I just want to say I'm church and I just want to say I'm sorry sorry sorry and God sees he knows he loves you and God sees he knows he loves you and God sees he knows he loves you you're a beloved daughter of the king no you're a beloved daughter of the king no you're a beloved daughter of the king no matter what's going on in your heart matter what's going on in your heart matter what's going on in your heart today just want to acknowledge that uh today just want to acknowledge that uh today just want to acknowledge that uh anything else I say might be secondary anything else I say might be secondary anything else I say might be secondary but I I Will Stand Back by that door as but I I Will Stand Back by that door as but I I Will Stand Back by that door as a pastor's wife the old lady on the a pastor's wife the old lady on the a pastor's wife the old lady on the stage of 34 years and give you a hug if stage of 34 years and give you a hug if stage of 34 years and give you a hug if you want one on the way out because I you want one on the way out because I you want one on the way out because I understand Karen gives good understand Karen gives good understand Karen gives good hugs okay let's do it this is really important to me it this is really important to me because because this is a workshop not because because this is a workshop not because because this is a workshop not on how to be sad when we're hurt or how on how to be sad when we're hurt or how on how to be sad when we're hurt or how to lament even but that's a good thing to lament even but that's a good thing to lament even but that's a good thing but this is how to love the church when but this is how to love the church when but this is how to love the church when we're hurt and that's a very different we're hurt and that's a very different we're hurt and that's a very different conversation and I am so grateful that conversation and I am so grateful that conversation and I am so grateful that each of you are brave enough to walk each of you are brave enough to walk each of you are brave enough to walk into this room because we are called to into this room because we are called to into this room because we are called to love even when we don't want to even love even when we don't want to even love even when we don't want to even when we're when we're when we're hurt and that is a way we can reflect hurt and that is a way we can reflect hurt and that is a way we can reflect the image of the image of the image of Christ um this topic is so important to Christ um this topic is so important to Christ um this topic is so important to me as I've been on both sides of church me as I've been on both sides of church me as I've been on both sides of church leadership or congregant um having been

leadership or congregant um having been leadership or congregant um having been hurt from um as a leader and been hurt hurt from um as a leader and been hurt hurt from um as a leader and been hurt as a congregant and um as a mama to six as a congregant and um as a mama to six as a congregant and um as a mama to six boys who are becoming young adults I boys who are becoming young adults I boys who are becoming young adults I recognize that we how we respond to recognize that we how we respond to recognize that we how we respond to either hurt on a very large public scale either hurt on a very large public scale either hurt on a very large public scale or how we respond to the hurt that or how we respond to the hurt that or how we respond to the hurt that happens at a conversation after church happens at a conversation after church happens at a conversation after church on a Sunday will really show our on a Sunday will really show our on a Sunday will really show our children in our next Generation like children in our next Generation like children in our next Generation like you know is he worthy right and and so you know is he worthy right and and so you know is he worthy right and and so this conversation is important this conversation is important this conversation is important because Jesus um is worthy of us really because Jesus um is worthy of us really because Jesus um is worthy of us really being mindful about how we can um being mindful about how we can um being mindful about how we can um respond and how we can respond respond and how we can respond respond and how we can respond biblically to things that are hard like biblically to things that are hard like biblically to things that are hard like this yeah that's so good um well Karen I this yeah that's so good um well Karen I this yeah that's so good um well Karen I think it's helpful to kind of Define our think it's helpful to kind of Define our think it's helpful to kind of Define our terms a bit we've said this is a broad terms a bit we've said this is a broad terms a bit we've said this is a broad topic and so what do we mean when we say topic and so what do we mean when we say topic and so what do we mean when we say Church hurt like what types of things Church hurt like what types of things Church hurt like what types of things have you observed or experienced that have you observed or experienced that have you observed or experienced that you think might be examples or give us a you think might be examples or give us a you think might be examples or give us a sense for what this is sure um let's sense for what this is sure um let's sense for what this is sure um let's start with the word church okay you start with the word church okay you start with the word church okay you might be thinking might be thinking might be thinking organization I want to say organism organization I want to say organism organization I want to say organism maybe to you um but you um and you might maybe to you um but you um and you might maybe to you um but you um and you might be thinking in terms of uh just the idea be thinking in terms of uh just the idea be thinking in terms of uh just the idea of what how the scripture defines the of what how the scripture defines the of what how the scripture defines the church and I think it's important for us church and I think it's important for us church and I think it's important for us to understand before we move on that to understand before we move on that to understand before we move on that it's always plural it's always corporate it's always plural it's always corporate it's always plural it's always corporate we're living stones right being built we're living stones right being built we're living stones right being built together we are um the bride of Christ

together we are um the bride of Christ together we are um the bride of Christ that we all be at the wedding Feast it's that we all be at the wedding Feast it's that we all be at the wedding Feast it's not a solo event um and we're embodied not a solo event um and we're embodied not a solo event um and we're embodied people the church is a body and we can't people the church is a body and we can't people the church is a body and we can't say I have no need of an arm or a leg so say I have no need of an arm or a leg so say I have no need of an arm or a leg so you you might want to just look at the you you might want to just look at the you you might want to just look at the person next to you and say we are the person next to you and say we are the person next to you and say we are the church we're the church yeah and we have church we're the church yeah and we have church we're the church yeah and we have the we have the capacity to not only the we have the capacity to not only the we have the capacity to not only receive injur or harm but also to receive injur or harm but also to receive injur or harm but also to inflict it so I think it's important for inflict it so I think it's important for inflict it so I think it's important for us to see that first but then to think us to see that first but then to think us to see that first but then to think biblically about church hurt we have to biblically about church hurt we have to biblically about church hurt we have to think about the big framework of the think about the big framework of the think about the big framework of the Bible right in other words what's the Bible right in other words what's the Bible right in other words what's the origin of Church hurt well it's the fall origin of Church hurt well it's the fall origin of Church hurt well it's the fall it's the tragic intrusion of breaking it's the tragic intrusion of breaking it's the tragic intrusion of breaking everything and everyone so the church is everything and everyone so the church is everything and everyone so the church is full of Sinners who are Saints there are full of Sinners who are Saints there are full of Sinners who are Saints there are broken people broken systems broken broken people broken systems broken broken people broken systems broken organizations even in the context of the organizations even in the context of the organizations even in the context of the church and so that's why when Paul is church and so that's why when Paul is church and so that's why when Paul is writing Pastoral Epistles or writing um writing Pastoral Epistles or writing um writing Pastoral Epistles or writing um the Epistles um in the New Testament the Epistles um in the New Testament the Epistles um in the New Testament he's addressing things like anger he's addressing things like anger he's addressing things like anger slander malice what our need to be kind slander malice what our need to be kind slander malice what our need to be kind and tender-hearted and forgive at uh and tender-hearted and forgive at uh and tender-hearted and forgive at uh others as Christ has forgiven us and so others as Christ has forgiven us and so others as Christ has forgiven us and so uh he used words like biting and uh he used words like biting and uh he used words like biting and devouring why because our our sin is so devouring why because our our sin is so devouring why because our our sin is so present within our heart um that we we present within our heart um that we we present within our heart um that we we often say and do things often say and do things often say and do things that cause hurt for other people so yeah that cause hurt for other people so yeah that cause hurt for other people so yeah that's really helpful um and I think you that's really helpful um and I think you that's really helpful um and I think you know we all know in the context of

know we all know in the context of know we all know in the context of relationships whether that's just relationships whether that's just relationships whether that's just onetoone in a family friendships within onetoone in a family friendships within onetoone in a family friendships within the church that expectations have a lot the church that expectations have a lot the church that expectations have a lot to do with the way that we experience to do with the way that we experience to do with the way that we experience and receive things from people and so as and receive things from people and so as and receive things from people and so as we all talked planning this that was one we all talked planning this that was one we all talked planning this that was one thing that came up that Ruth pointed out thing that came up that Ruth pointed out thing that came up that Ruth pointed out we also need to consider our we also need to consider our we also need to consider our expectations within Church relationships expectations within Church relationships expectations within Church relationships and so Ruth I'd love for you to talk a and so Ruth I'd love for you to talk a and so Ruth I'd love for you to talk a bit about you know if if I feel hurt in bit about you know if if I feel hurt in bit about you know if if I feel hurt in the church the church the church context how might I think through context how might I think through context how might I think through whether I've been sinned whether I've been sinned whether I've been sinned against uh or perhaps whether the issue against uh or perhaps whether the issue against uh or perhaps whether the issue is with my expectations of the is with my expectations of the is with my expectations of the situation yeah you know whenever um I situation yeah you know whenever um I situation yeah you know whenever um I kind of always think about this when I kind of always think about this when I kind of always think about this when I think of the word expectations because I think of the word expectations because I think of the word expectations because I am somebody who's real prone to feeling am somebody who's real prone to feeling am somebody who's real prone to feeling like um so vulnerable to always say this like um so vulnerable to always say this like um so vulnerable to always say this but I'm like I'm really prone to feeling but I'm like I'm really prone to feeling but I'm like I'm really prone to feeling disappointed like it's I can EAS be like disappointed like it's I can EAS be like disappointed like it's I can EAS be like that's not what what I expected from you that's not what what I expected from you that's not what what I expected from you or I really expected more and a lot of or I really expected more and a lot of or I really expected more and a lot of times when I feel that way the first times when I feel that way the first times when I feel that way the first thing I have to do is like go how does thing I have to do is like go how does thing I have to do is like go how does that Trace back to what I'm maybe that Trace back to what I'm maybe that Trace back to what I'm maybe worshiping or idolizing other than Jesus worshiping or idolizing other than Jesus worshiping or idolizing other than Jesus so I think we have to start by going um so I think we have to start by going um so I think we have to start by going um am I disappointed because I've actually am I disappointed because I've actually am I disappointed because I've actually been sinned against and there's an been sinned against and there's an been sinned against and there's an actual reconciliation that needs to actual reconciliation that needs to actual reconciliation that needs to happen or am happen or am happen or am I somehow possibly looking to that I somehow possibly looking to that I somehow possibly looking to that person in my church Community or in the person in my church Community or in the person in my church Community or in the body of Christ to like be like Jesus body of Christ to like be like Jesus body of Christ to like be like Jesus like in a perfect way you know am I like in a perfect way you know am I like in a perfect way you know am I somebody who's disappointed because um

somebody who's disappointed because um somebody who's disappointed because um you didn't be meet my expectations and you didn't be meet my expectations and you didn't be meet my expectations and somehow I am now making an idol of my somehow I am now making an idol of my somehow I am now making an idol of my expectation of a church relationship expectation of a church relationship expectation of a church relationship forgetting that the church um the body forgetting that the church um the body forgetting that the church um the body of Christ is made up of Sinners and I of Christ is made up of Sinners and I of Christ is made up of Sinners and I think sometimes we forget that we kind think sometimes we forget that we kind think sometimes we forget that we kind of walk in the doors and I'm sure that of walk in the doors and I'm sure that of walk in the doors and I'm sure that um it doesn't help that sometimes we do um it doesn't help that sometimes we do um it doesn't help that sometimes we do kind of come with like a facade on and kind of come with like a facade on and kind of come with like a facade on and we don't always come vulnerably and I we don't always come vulnerably and I we don't always come vulnerably and I think it's really easy to start assuming think it's really easy to start assuming think it's really easy to start assuming that um we're going to somehow meet each that um we're going to somehow meet each that um we're going to somehow meet each other's needs perfectly and that we're other's needs perfectly and that we're other's needs perfectly and that we're not we forget that we're Sinners who are not we forget that we're Sinners who are not we forget that we're Sinners who are actually in need of Jesus and so I think actually in need of Jesus and so I think actually in need of Jesus and so I think it's really good to to not always assume it's really good to to not always assume it's really good to to not always assume that every situation is some big that every situation is some big that every situation is some big confrontational thing but to even start confrontational thing but to even start confrontational thing but to even start by saying where am I so why am I so by saying where am I so why am I so by saying where am I so why am I so upset and is this really because um had upset and is this really because um had upset and is this really because um had um wrong expectations and putting too um wrong expectations and putting too um wrong expectations and putting too many things on an imperfect person or do many things on an imperfect person or do many things on an imperfect person or do I need to engage in a reconciliation I need to engage in a reconciliation I need to engage in a reconciliation with this person yeah I think that's with this person yeah I think that's with this person yeah I think that's really good to say hey the first step is really good to say hey the first step is really good to say hey the first step is sort of internal to really be honest sort of internal to really be honest sort of internal to really be honest before the Lord to really think through before the Lord to really think through before the Lord to really think through examine our own Hearts our own examine our own Hearts our own examine our own Hearts our own motivations and bring that before him motivations and bring that before him motivations and bring that before him and kind of work through those things and kind of work through those things and kind of work through those things before we sometimes we want to just before we sometimes we want to just before we sometimes we want to just react really quickly um I think it's react really quickly um I think it's react really quickly um I think it's good to have that pause and reflection good to have that pause and reflection good to have that pause and reflection but let's say we've done that you know but let's say we've done that you know but let's say we've done that you know I've I've reflected I've really prayed I've I've reflected I've really prayed I've I've reflected I've really prayed about it I've really been honest before about it I've really been honest before about it I've really been honest before the Lord and tried to examine my own the Lord and tried to examine my own the Lord and tried to examine my own motivations and my own idols and at the

motivations and my own idols and at the motivations and my own idols and at the end of it I come to the conclusion no I end of it I come to the conclusion no I end of it I come to the conclusion no I really have been sinned against like really have been sinned against like really have been sinned against like there really is something here where do there really is something here where do there really is something here where do we go then with that Irene what do I do we go then with that Irene what do I do we go then with that Irene what do I do if I realize there really is an issue if I realize there really is an issue if I realize there really is an issue here what's what's maybe a Next Step here what's what's maybe a Next Step here what's what's maybe a Next Step well the next step and actually the well the next step and actually the well the next step and actually the first step is always to first step is always to first step is always to pray and I always go to job whenever I pray and I always go to job whenever I pray and I always go to job whenever I think of prayer because at the end of think of prayer because at the end of think of prayer because at the end of The Book of Job Yahweh says that job has The Book of Job Yahweh says that job has The Book of Job Yahweh says that job has said has spoken right about me and the said has spoken right about me and the said has spoken right about me and the friends have not spoken right about me friends have not spoken right about me friends have not spoken right about me well job said some really awful things well job said some really awful things well job said some really awful things about God and you're like just what do about God and you're like just what do about God and you're like just what do you mean Lord that job has spoken you mean Lord that job has spoken you mean Lord that job has spoken rightly about you and the biggest rightly about you and the biggest rightly about you and the biggest difference that job's words has compared difference that job's words has compared difference that job's words has compared to his friends is that job prays even to his friends is that job prays even to his friends is that job prays even when he's talking to elifas even when he when he's talking to elifas even when he when he's talking to elifas even when he is responding to the friends who were is responding to the friends who were is responding to the friends who were hurting him he was praying and so for hurting him he was praying and so for hurting him he was praying and so for example when he was responding to elphas example when he was responding to elphas example when he was responding to elphas in Job chapter 7 he's talking to alfas in Job chapter 7 he's talking to alfas in Job chapter 7 he's talking to alfas and suddenly he goes into what is a man and suddenly he goes into what is a man and suddenly he goes into what is a man that you make so so much of him that you that you make so so much of him that you that you make so so much of him that you set your heart on him visit him every set your heart on him visit him every set your heart on him visit him every morning and test him every moment how morning and test him every moment how morning and test him every moment how long will you not look away from me nor long will you not look away from me nor long will you not look away from me nor leave me alone until I swallow my spit

leave me alone until I swallow my spit leave me alone until I swallow my spit and so it's just really interesting to and so it's just really interesting to and so it's just really interesting to me that we are called to be in right me that we are called to be in right me that we are called to be in right relationship with God first before we relationship with God first before we relationship with God first before we even start thinking about making our even start thinking about making our even start thinking about making our human relationships right we need to be human relationships right we need to be human relationships right we need to be in right relationship with God and in right relationship with God and in right relationship with God and sometimes is to cry out to him and say sometimes is to cry out to him and say sometimes is to cry out to him and say why Lord and why Lord and why Lord and that Yahweh says job has spoken rightly that Yahweh says job has spoken rightly that Yahweh says job has spoken rightly about me yeah that's so good going to about me yeah that's so good going to about me yeah that's so good going to the Lord first um and then Karen what the Lord first um and then Karen what the Lord first um and then Karen what about um accountability within the about um accountability within the about um accountability within the church what about um principles of church what about um principles of church what about um principles of Confrontation how do we think through um Confrontation how do we think through um Confrontation how do we think through um after we you know we've gone before the after we you know we've gone before the after we you know we've gone before the Lord we feel we've honored him we've Lord we feel we've honored him we've Lord we feel we've honored him we've prayed about it where might we go in um prayed about it where might we go in um prayed about it where might we go in um in human structures and within the in human structures and within the in human structures and within the church right and again this is um saying church right and again this is um saying church right and again this is um saying that there are trusted leaders in the that there are trusted leaders in the that there are trusted leaders in the church right okay this and so part of church right okay this and so part of church right okay this and so part of part of the way we parse that out and part of the way we parse that out and part of the way we parse that out and discern that is by being embodied in discern that is by being embodied in discern that is by being embodied in community right and so hopefully there community right and so hopefully there community right and so hopefully there are older wiser people in your life uh are older wiser people in your life uh are older wiser people in your life uh uh the day of Crisis is not the day the uh the day of Crisis is not the day the uh the day of Crisis is not the day the first day for you to begin building first day for you to begin building first day for you to begin building these relationships today's the day so these relationships today's the day so these relationships today's the day so that when something like this happens that when something like this happens that when something like this happens that you can go after you've prayed that you can go after you've prayed that you can go after you've prayed you've sought you sought the Lord in his you've sought you sought the Lord in his you've sought you sought the Lord in his word and then sit down with them and and

word and then sit down with them and and word and then sit down with them and and actually work through how to think actually work through how to think actually work through how to think biblic biblically about this and then biblic biblically about this and then biblic biblically about this and then what are the next steps towards what are the next steps towards what are the next steps towards peacemaking and of course Jesus outlines peacemaking and of course Jesus outlines peacemaking and of course Jesus outlines those in Matthew 18 so perhaps it's it's those in Matthew 18 so perhaps it's it's those in Matthew 18 so perhaps it's it's a case where you would take someone like a case where you would take someone like a case where you would take someone like that with you in in the in the effort to that with you in in the in the effort to that with you in in the in the effort to try to bring out biblical try to bring out biblical try to bring out biblical reconciliation yeah absolutely I think reconciliation yeah absolutely I think reconciliation yeah absolutely I think the Temptation is um whether as we were the Temptation is um whether as we were the Temptation is um whether as we were talking I was thinking what's rolling talking I was thinking what's rolling talking I was thinking what's rolling around in your heads I wish we could around in your heads I wish we could around in your heads I wish we could pass the microphone well no I don't wish pass the microphone well no I don't wish pass the microphone well no I don't wish actually let's not back but but you know actually let's not back but but you know actually let's not back but but you know some of us might be thinking oh Church some of us might be thinking oh Church some of us might be thinking oh Church Hurt Like H this one friend who really Hurt Like H this one friend who really Hurt Like H this one friend who really hurt me and we go to church together and hurt me and we go to church together and hurt me and we go to church together and some of you might be like wow I had a some of you might be like wow I had a some of you might be like wow I had a leader in my church just flat out really leader in my church just flat out really leader in my church just flat out really speak wrongly towards me or it was a speak wrongly towards me or it was a speak wrongly towards me or it was a pastor so we all have different images pastor so we all have different images pastor so we all have different images in our minds about what we might be in our minds about what we might be in our minds about what we might be feeling and I was thinking through you feeling and I was thinking through you feeling and I was thinking through you know um our next steps really different know um our next steps really different know um our next steps really different for different kinds of relationships and for different kinds of relationships and for different kinds of relationships and I think that we can get into the I think that we can get into the I think that we can get into the nitty-gritty of that a little bit more nitty-gritty of that a little bit more nitty-gritty of that a little bit more as we go on but I think overall this as we go on but I think overall this as we go on but I think overall this Matthew 18 principle is the principle Matthew 18 principle is the principle Matthew 18 principle is the principle with every case it's really tempting to with every case it's really tempting to with every case it's really tempting to want to go to your friend first to talk want to go to your friend first to talk want to go to your friend first to talk about how much you've been mistreated by about how much you've been mistreated by about how much you've been mistreated by the friend or the Sunday school teacher the friend or the Sunday school teacher the friend or the Sunday school teacher or the leader or the pastor and or the leader or the pastor and or the leader or the pastor and especially if you're at a large church I especially if you're at a large church I especially if you're at a large church I think it's really easy to think well I I think it's really easy to think well I I think it's really easy to think well I I don't I I can't make this right or I don't I I can't make this right or I don't I I can't make this right or I don't really know what I can do about it don't really know what I can do about it don't really know what I can do about it so let me just go and just keep talking so let me just go and just keep talking so let me just go and just keep talking about it you know and that actually kind

about it you know and that actually kind about it you know and that actually kind of gets icky right it starts I mean big of gets icky right it starts I mean big of gets icky right it starts I mean big theological word there but it's like it theological word there but it's like it theological word there but it's like it starts just being it's it's starting to starts just being it's it's starting to starts just being it's it's starting to rot within the community you know and so rot within the community you know and so rot within the community you know and so we do need to think through okay the we do need to think through okay the we do need to think through okay the Matthew 18 thing doesn't just only apply Matthew 18 thing doesn't just only apply Matthew 18 thing doesn't just only apply to when there's been an offense with a to when there's been an offense with a to when there's been an offense with a friend or misunderstanding it even friend or misunderstanding it even friend or misunderstanding it even applies here when we're talking about applies here when we're talking about applies here when we're talking about leaders or we're talking about somebody leaders or we're talking about somebody leaders or we're talking about somebody in authority and thinking through how we in authority and thinking through how we in authority and thinking through how we can engage that person knowing that they can engage that person knowing that they can engage that person knowing that they are a person like the the pastor of your are a person like the the pastor of your are a person like the the pastor of your church is still your brother in Christ church is still your brother in Christ church is still your brother in Christ it's not like some far removed and I it's not like some far removed and I it's not like some far removed and I think that's why Karen you made a good think that's why Karen you made a good think that's why Karen you made a good um you just I think it's really good for um you just I think it's really good for um you just I think it's really good for us to say we know that not everybody's us to say we know that not everybody's us to say we know that not everybody's at the healthiest church or we can't at the healthiest church or we can't at the healthiest church or we can't assume that everybody's in a healthy assume that everybody's in a healthy assume that everybody's in a healthy church but the reality is uh dealing church but the reality is uh dealing church but the reality is uh dealing with chur chur really has to happen in with chur chur really has to happen in with chur chur really has to happen in the in the in the safety of knowing that the in the in the safety of knowing that the in the in the safety of knowing that there's trusted elders and trusted there's trusted elders and trusted there's trusted elders and trusted leaders trusted people you can go to you leaders trusted people you can go to you leaders trusted people you can go to you can't easily go to somebody that you can't easily go to somebody that you can't easily go to somebody that you never have interface or you can't never have interface or you can't never have interface or you can't interface with right so I think um yeah interface with right so I think um yeah interface with right so I think um yeah when we think about that I don't I can't when we think about that I don't I can't when we think about that I don't I can't think of a reason why that wouldn't think of a reason why that wouldn't think of a reason why that wouldn't apply am I right right you're right yeah apply am I right right you're right yeah apply am I right right you're right yeah no I think you're exactly right yeah no I think you're exactly right yeah no I think you're exactly right yeah that's great um well when we think about that's great um well when we think about that's great um well when we think about church hurt I think we talked about church hurt I think we talked about church hurt I think we talked about expectations and I think often we will expectations and I think often we will expectations and I think often we will realize afterwards that we feel let down realize afterwards that we feel let down realize afterwards that we feel let down um by someone that we respected and so um by someone that we respected and so um by someone that we respected and so maybe that's the friend who spoke

maybe that's the friend who spoke maybe that's the friend who spoke harshly but a lot of times in these harshly but a lot of times in these harshly but a lot of times in these situations it might be a leader we've situations it might be a leader we've situations it might be a leader we've really respected someone who has taught really respected someone who has taught really respected someone who has taught us for years or um led a Ministry in our us for years or um led a Ministry in our us for years or um led a Ministry in our church our pastor and there are a lot of church our pastor and there are a lot of church our pastor and there are a lot of Ripple effects when someone like that Ripple effects when someone like that Ripple effects when someone like that especially has a larger scale situation especially has a larger scale situation especially has a larger scale situation of hurt where maybe they've had a a of hurt where maybe they've had a a of hurt where maybe they've had a a public failing they've done something to public failing they've done something to public failing they've done something to harm a large section of the congregation harm a large section of the congregation harm a large section of the congregation and so then it's not necessarily just and so then it's not necessarily just and so then it's not necessarily just how will I process what has happened but how will I process what has happened but how will I process what has happened but how will the church body deal with this how will the church body deal with this how will the church body deal with this and so sometimes then the interpersonal and so sometimes then the interpersonal and so sometimes then the interpersonal Dynamics become well I have a different Dynamics become well I have a different Dynamics become well I have a different take on the situation or I feel take on the situation or I feel take on the situation or I feel differently about what has happened here differently about what has happened here differently about what has happened here than Ken does and so how will we as than Ken does and so how will we as than Ken does and so how will we as sisters be able to work through um this sisters be able to work through um this sisters be able to work through um this situation and so I want to kind of think situation and so I want to kind of think situation and so I want to kind of think through an example of that a little bit through an example of that a little bit through an example of that a little bit so um you know let's imagine a situation so um you know let's imagine a situation so um you know let's imagine a situation where the pastor of a church has had where the pastor of a church has had where the pastor of a church has had some sort of public failure that is now some sort of public failure that is now some sort of public failure that is now exposed and people have been hurt by exposed and people have been hurt by exposed and people have been hurt by what he's done um in my own experience what he's done um in my own experience what he's done um in my own experience at least there was um a tendency in our at least there was um a tendency in our at least there was um a tendency in our congregation for some people to congregation for some people to congregation for some people to feel um to to have a hard time believing feel um to to have a hard time believing feel um to to have a hard time believing what came out and to say well he was a what came out and to say well he was a what came out and to say well he was a faithful pastor and he was good to my faithful pastor and he was good to my faithful pastor and he was good to my family and my experiences with him were family and my experiences with him were family and my experiences with him were only ever positive so I don't think this only ever positive so I don't think this only ever positive so I don't think this could be true and so that was sort of could be true and so that was sort of could be true and so that was sort of one end of the spectrum and then maybe one end of the spectrum and then maybe one end of the spectrum and then maybe the other one was well if he's done all the other one was well if he's done all the other one was well if he's done all these things then let's just cancel him

these things then let's just cancel him these things then let's just cancel him and be done everything he ever did is and be done everything he ever did is and be done everything he ever did is Tainted and we want nothing more to do Tainted and we want nothing more to do Tainted and we want nothing more to do with him and so I think that we tend with him and so I think that we tend with him and so I think that we tend toward those extremes but Karen maybe toward those extremes but Karen maybe toward those extremes but Karen maybe how do we think through biblically the how do we think through biblically the how do we think through biblically the fact that people are complicated and fact that people are complicated and fact that people are complicated and they might have been a great leader and they might have been a great leader and they might have been a great leader and they might have a public failing and they might have a public failing and they might have a public failing and what do we do with all that mess that what do we do with all that mess that what do we do with all that mess that comes in the midst of church Hur well comes in the midst of church Hur well comes in the midst of church Hur well Winfrey I think you bring up some good Winfrey I think you bring up some good Winfrey I think you bring up some good points number one church hurt is never points number one church hurt is never points number one church hurt is never singular it's always plural in other singular it's always plural in other singular it's always plural in other words there's always a ripple effect words there's always a ripple effect words there's always a ripple effect there's always collateral damage even in there's always collateral damage even in there's always collateral damage even in the way we have conversations with other the way we have conversations with other the way we have conversations with other people and then the other thing you said people and then the other thing you said people and then the other thing you said in your comments was my experience is my in your comments was my experience is my in your comments was my experience is my reference point I feel this way about reference point I feel this way about reference point I feel this way about this is my perception this is my perception this is my perception and so that there again goes back to how and so that there again goes back to how and so that there again goes back to how he answered the other question about he answered the other question about he answered the other question about like going to God first and going to his like going to God first and going to his like going to God first and going to his word but um I think our reference point word but um I think our reference point word but um I think our reference point has to be Jesus and I know that seems has to be Jesus and I know that seems has to be Jesus and I know that seems like the simple answer but Jesus like the simple answer but Jesus like the simple answer but Jesus actually disappointed people he did not actually disappointed people he did not actually disappointed people he did not do everything that everybody thought he do everything that everybody thought he do everything that everybody thought he was going to was going to was going to do but Jesus did not disappoint people do but Jesus did not disappoint people do but Jesus did not disappoint people at a rate they could not absorb because at a rate they could not absorb because at a rate they could not absorb because he's he's he's perfect our good friend Tasha Chapman perfect our good friend Tasha Chapman perfect our good friend Tasha Chapman taught me this the idea of and as taught me this the idea of and as taught me this the idea of and as leaders and and those of us who serve in leaders and and those of us who serve in leaders and and those of us who serve in the church we will disappoint people and the church we will disappoint people and the church we will disappoint people and the key here is disappointing people at the key here is disappointing people at the key here is disappointing people at a rate they can a rate they can a rate they can absorb right and so that's the absorb right and so that's the absorb right and so that's the discipleship gap between what we

discipleship gap between what we discipleship gap between what we expected and what we experienced and expected and what we experienced and expected and what we experienced and then we seek to come into there and so then we seek to come into there and so then we seek to come into there and so how do we deal with this we wrestle with how do we deal with this we wrestle with how do we deal with this we wrestle with God we pray and and we have to seriously God we pray and and we have to seriously God we pray and and we have to seriously take consider take consider take consider um if we're in a healthy church and how um if we're in a healthy church and how um if we're in a healthy church and how do we know that we know that because we do we know that we know that because we do we know that we know that because we look in the New Testament and all of the look in the New Testament and all of the look in the New Testament and all of the framework for having a healthy church is framework for having a healthy church is framework for having a healthy church is there and and right at the top of the there and and right at the top of the there and and right at the top of the list is sound doctrine that word means list is sound doctrine that word means list is sound doctrine that word means healthy or hygienic when you see sound healthy or hygienic when you see sound healthy or hygienic when you see sound teaching you will see a sound or healthy teaching you will see a sound or healthy teaching you will see a sound or healthy church right and so those are kind of church right and so those are kind of church right and so those are kind of things that kind of help us but of often things that kind of help us but of often things that kind of help us but of often we have to and you just said ick we have we have to and you just said ick we have we have to and you just said ick we have to wrestle through these things we have to wrestle through these things we have to wrestle through these things we have to wrestle through these things so we to wrestle through these things so we to wrestle through these things so we can think biblically and then live that can think biblically and then live that can think biblically and then live that out out out relationally yeah and how might we tell relationally yeah and how might we tell relationally yeah and how might we tell so let's say like a pastor leader so let's say like a pastor leader so let's say like a pastor leader someone who has uh maybe not just sort someone who has uh maybe not just sort someone who has uh maybe not just sort of disappointed at a rate we weren't of disappointed at a rate we weren't of disappointed at a rate we weren't prepared for but really has sinned prepared for but really has sinned prepared for but really has sinned against people in the congregation against people in the congregation against people in the congregation really has legitimately caused hurt how really has legitimately caused hurt how really has legitimately caused hurt how can we tell then whether they are can we tell then whether they are can we tell then whether they are someone we could try to trust again or someone we could try to trust again or someone we could try to trust again or whether maybe they aren't fit to lead whether maybe they aren't fit to lead whether maybe they aren't fit to lead anymore how do we kind of think through anymore how do we kind of think through anymore how do we kind of think through that discernment whether or not there's that discernment whether or not there's that discernment whether or not there's repentance and if it is a public sin repentance and if it is a public sin repentance and if it is a public sin then that requires a public then that requires a public then that requires a public repentance and that I I mean I go to a repentance and that I I mean I go to a repentance and that I I mean I go to a Chinese church and our two

Chinese church and our two Chinese church and our two Elders regularly confess sins at the Elders regularly confess sins at the Elders regularly confess sins at the pulpit I mean not in the gross way but pulpit I mean not in the gross way but pulpit I mean not in the gross way but just in like the things that I have done just in like the things that I have done just in like the things that I have done throughout this week while I'm preparing throughout this week while I'm preparing throughout this week while I'm preparing the sermon while I am impatient with my the sermon while I am impatient with my the sermon while I am impatient with my wife my husband tells tells the wife my husband tells tells the wife my husband tells tells the congregation that a lot and I am so thankful that we have lot and I am so thankful that we have two Elders preaching Elders who are not two Elders preaching Elders who are not two Elders preaching Elders who are not afraid to be constantly afraid to be constantly afraid to be constantly regularly regularly regularly ex just exposing their imperfections ex just exposing their imperfections ex just exposing their imperfections and and I think that is what is required and and I think that is what is required and and I think that is what is required of uh a a doctrinally sound church so I of uh a a doctrinally sound church so I of uh a a doctrinally sound church so I think in reflection with to in response think in reflection with to in response think in reflection with to in response to both of your comments I think our to both of your comments I think our to both of your comments I think our feelings are not the standard right how feelings are not the standard right how feelings are not the standard right how we feel about somebody or what we want we feel about somebody or what we want we feel about somebody or what we want to believe about somebody or how we feel to believe about somebody or how we feel to believe about somebody or how we feel you sometimes we are like oh I don't you sometimes we are like oh I don't you sometimes we are like oh I don't really want to deal with the church hurt really want to deal with the church hurt really want to deal with the church hurt because we don't want the church to because we don't want the church to because we don't want the church to suffer for it or whatever but I think we suffer for it or whatever but I think we suffer for it or whatever but I think we have to have God's word and um and the have to have God's word and um and the have to have God's word and um and the gospel be the reason like the the actual gospel be the reason like the the actual gospel be the reason like the the actual measure for what is right and wrong so measure for what is right and wrong so measure for what is right and wrong so ultimately we know that in our heads but ultimately we know that in our heads but ultimately we know that in our heads but I think when it comes to like I think when it comes to like I think when it comes to like relationships and people sometimes we relationships and people sometimes we relationships and people sometimes we get a little weird and fuzzy about it get a little weird and fuzzy about it get a little weird and fuzzy about it and so what you're describing both of

and so what you're describing both of and so what you're describing both of you is you know Karen saying like you is you know Karen saying like you is you know Karen saying like ultimately it's not just like whether we ultimately it's not just like whether we ultimately it's not just like whether we feel like this or not we have to have feel like this or not we have to have feel like this or not we have to have sound Doctrine to to be the foundation sound Doctrine to to be the foundation sound Doctrine to to be the foundation for what for what for what what is a pastor's role what is our what is a pastor's role what is our what is a pastor's role what is our actual relationship with one another how actual relationship with one another how actual relationship with one another how do we treat one another that's not do we treat one another that's not do we treat one another that's not something we're making up on the fly or something we're making up on the fly or something we're making up on the fly or the culture is not telling us how we do the culture is not telling us how we do the culture is not telling us how we do this thing we're not a um Corporation we this thing we're not a um Corporation we this thing we're not a um Corporation we are the body of Christ and the Bible are the body of Christ and the Bible are the body of Christ and the Bible tells us what is our our family tells us what is our our family tells us what is our our family relationship is to be like so we have to relationship is to be like so we have to relationship is to be like so we have to return to the word we're not running return to the word we're not running return to the word we're not running events every Sunday right we are events every Sunday right we are events every Sunday right we are actually the body of Christ we are the actually the body of Christ we are the actually the body of Christ we are the church and then what Irene's saying is church and then what Irene's saying is church and then what Irene's saying is ultimately like humility right humility ultimately like humility right humility ultimately like humility right humility and repentance because when a leader is and repentance because when a leader is and repentance because when a leader is subject to that word and is like okay subject to that word and is like okay subject to that word and is like okay everything here applies to my life then everything here applies to my life then everything here applies to my life then there will be humility in response to it there will be humility in response to it there will be humility in response to it right so basically what we're saying is right so basically what we're saying is right so basically what we're saying is Jesus and the word of God is Central and Jesus and the word of God is Central and Jesus and the word of God is Central and when we all say hey whether we like it when we all say hey whether we like it when we all say hey whether we like it or not like there's been like sin or not like there's been like sin or not like there's been like sin because God's word says this is sin and because God's word says this is sin and because God's word says this is sin and so then you re you look at that leader so then you re you look at that leader so then you re you look at that leader and say does that leader also and say does that leader also and say does that leader also acknowledge and agree with God right acknowledge and agree with God right acknowledge and agree with God right agreeing with God means that our posture agreeing with God means that our posture agreeing with God means that our posture agrees with God too and I think there's agrees with God too and I think there's agrees with God too and I think there's a way for us to say um is are are we a way for us to say um is are are we a way for us to say um is are are we turning towards the gospel and saying turning towards the gospel and saying turning towards the gospel and saying both the the person who sinned and those both the the person who sinned and those both the the person who sinned and those who are forgiving like are we all

who are forgiving like are we all who are forgiving like are we all postured in a way where we say we agree postured in a way where we say we agree postured in a way where we say we agree with God that this is the next step we with God that this is the next step we with God that this is the next step we need to take yes that's so good um I need to take yes that's so good um I need to take yes that's so good um I love those principles of looking for the love those principles of looking for the love those principles of looking for the humility and the repentance and all humility and the repentance and all humility and the repentance and all those things um so that helps us as we those things um so that helps us as we those things um so that helps us as we think about assessing the leader posture think about assessing the leader posture think about assessing the leader posture in in one of these Church situations but in in one of these Church situations but in in one of these Church situations but let's think also for a minute about how let's think also for a minute about how let's think also for a minute about how I relate to other members in the wake of I relate to other members in the wake of I relate to other members in the wake of this so let's say I've pulled out my this so let's say I've pulled out my this so let's say I've pulled out my Bible like Ruth is encouraging me and Bible like Ruth is encouraging me and Bible like Ruth is encouraging me and I'm looking to what the body of Christ I'm looking to what the body of Christ I'm looking to what the body of Christ is supposed to be and I've come to a is supposed to be and I've come to a is supposed to be and I've come to a certain conclusion about how I think our certain conclusion about how I think our certain conclusion about how I think our church should respond to this failed church should respond to this failed church should respond to this failed leader or or some other issue and then leader or or some other issue and then leader or or some other issue and then my sister has done the same thing and my sister has done the same thing and my sister has done the same thing and she's looked at her Bible and she's come she's looked at her Bible and she's come she's looked at her Bible and she's come to an entirely different conclusion to an entirely different conclusion to an entirely different conclusion about the way forward how do we meet one about the way forward how do we meet one about the way forward how do we meet one another and love one another in that um another and love one another in that um another and love one another in that um because the reality is in these because the reality is in these because the reality is in these situations a lot of times people will situations a lot of times people will situations a lot of times people will come to different conclusions so how do come to different conclusions so how do come to different conclusions so how do I how do I love you Karen and meet you I how do I love you Karen and meet you I how do I love you Karen and meet you if we don't agree about what's happened if we don't agree about what's happened if we don't agree about what's happened and we're both seeking the and we're both seeking the and we're both seeking the Lord well again I think it takes Lord well again I think it takes Lord well again I think it takes humility and I think it takes um Grace humility and I think it takes um Grace humility and I think it takes um Grace and I think that um sometimes we agree and I think that um sometimes we agree and I think that um sometimes we agree to disagree and I think we keep the main to disagree and I think we keep the main to disagree and I think we keep the main things the main things when it comes to things the main things when it comes to things the main things when it comes to be in other words what is eternal you be in other words what is eternal you be in other words what is eternal you are Eternal God's word is eternal our are Eternal God's word is eternal our are Eternal God's word is eternal our relationship is actually Eternal all of relationship is actually Eternal all of relationship is actually Eternal all of these things are Eternal and so when we these things are Eternal and so when we these things are Eternal and so when we get down in the weeds and the details get down in the weeds and the details get down in the weeds and the details and I think this and I thought that and

and I think this and I thought that and and I think this and I thought that and I disagree with that in other words I disagree with that in other words I disagree with that in other words those are secondary things and so I those are secondary things and so I those are secondary things and so I think keeping our mind on the Eternal think keeping our mind on the Eternal think keeping our mind on the Eternal things especially if we agree to things especially if we agree to things especially if we agree to disagree and then of course we keeping disagree and then of course we keeping disagree and then of course we keeping that speech in that triangle of whatever that speech in that triangle of whatever that speech in that triangle of whatever is truthful loving and according to the is truthful loving and according to the is truthful loving and according to the need of the moment and if it can't be need of the moment and if it can't be need of the moment and if it can't be all three of those things then we all three of those things then we all three of those things then we probably shouldn't be talking about it probably shouldn't be talking about it probably shouldn't be talking about it yes well said I love that um well I also yes well said I love that um well I also yes well said I love that um well I also think these situations can bring up hard think these situations can bring up hard think these situations can bring up hard questions about God right we believe questions about God right we believe questions about God right we believe that the church is his that he has that the church is his that he has that the church is his that he has instituted it um for the building of his instituted it um for the building of his instituted it um for the building of his kingdom that he loves the church he's kingdom that he loves the church he's kingdom that he loves the church he's ordained the church he watches over the ordained the church he watches over the ordained the church he watches over the church and yet uh we see the church church and yet uh we see the church church and yet uh we see the church being a setting where all kinds of um being a setting where all kinds of um being a setting where all kinds of um hurt and sin still happen and so uh for hurt and sin still happen and so uh for hurt and sin still happen and so uh for some of us this might bring up questions some of us this might bring up questions some of us this might bring up questions about why he allows these sorts of about why he allows these sorts of about why he allows these sorts of things um where is God in the midst of things um where is God in the midst of things um where is God in the midst of church hurt and so Irene I wonder if you church hurt and so Irene I wonder if you church hurt and so Irene I wonder if you have some thoughts on that how do we have some thoughts on that how do we have some thoughts on that how do we wrestle through those questions about wrestle through those questions about wrestle through those questions about God yeah um as I was was thinking about God yeah um as I was was thinking about God yeah um as I was was thinking about this question I was also thinking about this question I was also thinking about this question I was also thinking about the hardest scenario where it's the the hardest scenario where it's the the hardest scenario where it's the hardest for me to forgive and that hardest for me to forgive and that hardest for me to forgive and that always for me applies to the hurt of my always for me applies to the hurt of my always for me applies to the hurt of my children so when pastor's kids are children so when pastor's kids are children so when pastor's kids are attacked because they're a pastor's kids attacked because they're a pastor's kids attacked because they're a pastor's kids or if they're singled out or um or when

or if they're singled out or um or when or if they're singled out or um or when my children are hurt because of the my children are hurt because of the my children are hurt because of the authority placed over them I'm not authority placed over them I'm not authority placed over them I'm not talking about like hurt another kid I'm talking about like hurt another kid I'm talking about like hurt another kid I'm talking about when they're hurt by talking about when they're hurt by talking about when they're hurt by adults that is a situation where my own adults that is a situation where my own adults that is a situation where my own heart it's very difficult for me to heart it's very difficult for me to heart it's very difficult for me to receive and reconcile and in those very receive and reconcile and in those very receive and reconcile and in those very difficult times that's when I cry out difficult times that's when I cry out difficult times that's when I cry out God where are you why did you allow this God where are you why did you allow this God where are you why did you allow this to happen to a to happen to a to happen to a child and and I go back to what Joseph child and and I go back to what Joseph child and and I go back to what Joseph said at the end of said at the end of said at the end of Genesis um Genesis um Genesis um you meant evil against me but God meant you meant evil against me but God meant you meant evil against me but God meant it for good I don't see the good at the it for good I don't see the good at the it for good I don't see the good at the moment but I must moment but I must moment but I must believe that even when others are doing believe that even when others are doing believe that even when others are doing evil against my own evil against my own evil against my own children I need to believe that God is children I need to believe that God is children I need to believe that God is powerful and he is able to transform powerful and he is able to transform powerful and he is able to transform this evil for good for the good of my this evil for good for the good of my this evil for good for the good of my child for the good of this adult in child for the good of this adult in child for the good of this adult in Authority for the good of our family Authority for the good of our family Authority for the good of our family even when they're screaming even when even when they're screaming even when even when they're screaming even when we're holding them and they are we're holding them and they are we're holding them and they are screaming I need to somehow cry out for screaming I need to somehow cry out for screaming I need to somehow cry out for faith and ask the Lord to help me faith and ask the Lord to help me faith and ask the Lord to help me believe that this evil can turn out for believe that this evil can turn out for believe that this evil can turn out for good and I want to read for us Romans good and I want to read for us Romans good and I want to read for us Romans 8:28 because we think we know that verse

8:28 because we think we know that verse 8:28 because we think we know that verse or at least I thought I knew this verse or at least I thought I knew this verse or at least I thought I knew this verse all things work together for good all things work together for good all things work together for good to those who love God for those who are to those who love God for those who are to those who love God for those who are called according to his called according to his called according to his purpose and this is what I learned this purpose and this is what I learned this purpose and this is what I learned this week because in the next verse Paul week because in the next verse Paul week because in the next verse Paul actually explained what this good is actually explained what this good is actually explained what this good is because for me good means Comfort Health because for me good means Comfort Health because for me good means Comfort Health well-being well-being well-being reconciliation restoration all those reconciliation restoration all those reconciliation restoration all those good things but this is what Paul means good things but this is what Paul means good things but this is what Paul means when he says Good For Those whom he when he says Good For Those whom he when he says Good For Those whom he fornew he also predestined to be fornew he also predestined to be fornew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his conformed to the image of his conformed to the image of his son and that is the son and that is the son and that is the good that God promises not good in good that God promises not good in good that God promises not good in accordance to my own definition of good accordance to my own definition of good accordance to my own definition of good for my family and my children but that for my family and my children but that for my family and my children but that my child the adult whom who hurt him so my child the adult whom who hurt him so my child the adult whom who hurt him so that all of us our whole family our that all of us our whole family our that all of us our whole family our church would be conformed to the image church would be conformed to the image church would be conformed to the image of his his of his his of his his son well I was about to say that's so son well I was about to say that's so son well I was about to say that's so good but that doesn't Ruth go ahead no I good but that doesn't Ruth go ahead no I good but that doesn't Ruth go ahead no I just think it's so good when you're just think it's so good when you're just think it's so good when you're describing that God doesn't waste describing that God doesn't waste describing that God doesn't waste anything right and so the sanctification anything right and so the sanctification anything right and so the sanctification process is happening on our end if we're process is happening on our end if we're process is happening on our end if we're the ones being hurt but also on the the ones being hurt but also on the the ones being hurt but also on the person who seeks forgiveness or is person who seeks forgiveness or is person who seeks forgiveness or is needing to repent or is failed as a needing to repent or is failed as a needing to repent or is failed as a leader or stuck his foot in his mouth

leader or stuck his foot in his mouth leader or stuck his foot in his mouth and said all the wrong things or handled and said all the wrong things or handled and said all the wrong things or handled a situation incorrectly but I wanted to a situation incorrectly but I wanted to a situation incorrectly but I wanted to also point to what Karen alluded to a also point to what Karen alluded to a also point to what Karen alluded to a little bit earlier I think at the very little bit earlier I think at the very little bit earlier I think at the very top of our our conversation in that you top of our our conversation in that you top of our our conversation in that you know when the Apostle Paul writes all know when the Apostle Paul writes all know when the Apostle Paul writes all these letters in the New Testament these letters in the New Testament these letters in the New Testament there's all these like one anothers there's all these like one anothers there's all these like one anothers right there's all these like right there's all these like right there's all these like instructions for how we cannot hurt each instructions for how we cannot hurt each instructions for how we cannot hurt each other it's there's all these other it's there's all these other it's there's all these instructions about how we should do instructions about how we should do instructions about how we should do things the right way and you know he things the right way and you know he things the right way and you know he always starts those letters off always always starts those letters off always always starts those letters off always starts the letters off by talking about starts the letters off by talking about starts the letters off by talking about the character of God about what God has the character of God about what God has the character of God about what God has done what Jesus has done how Jesus is done what Jesus has done how Jesus is done what Jesus has done how Jesus is perfect how he is preeminent how he perfect how he is preeminent how he perfect how he is preeminent how he holds all things together right and then holds all things together right and then holds all things together right and then he goes into therefore how we are he goes into therefore how we are he goes into therefore how we are transformed and then the one anothers transformed and then the one anothers transformed and then the one anothers come along and I think the point of that come along and I think the point of that come along and I think the point of that is to remind ourselves that we will all is to remind ourselves that we will all is to remind ourselves that we will all um kind of really doubt what we're even um kind of really doubt what we're even um kind of really doubt what we're even doing if we jump right to the like I'm doing if we jump right to the like I'm doing if we jump right to the like I'm gonna be really kind I'm never going to gonna be really kind I'm never going to gonna be really kind I'm never going to fail anybody well we're going to fail fail anybody well we're going to fail fail anybody well we're going to fail each other all the time like I don't each other all the time like I don't each other all the time like I don't know if for any M out there I'm like know if for any M out there I'm like know if for any M out there I'm like today I'm not going to yell today I'm not going to yell today I'm not going to yell and then it's like 9:30 in the morning and then it's like 9:30 in the morning and then it's like 9:30 in the morning and I'm like I couldn't even keep it and I'm like I couldn't even keep it and I'm like I couldn't even keep it together for like 4 hours you know and together for like 4 hours you know and together for like 4 hours you know and so the reality is if you're just like oh so the reality is if you're just like oh so the reality is if you're just like oh I'm never going to do this and I'm gonna I'm never going to do this and I'm gonna I'm never going to do this and I'm gonna do that but if you start with like okay do that but if you start with like okay do that but if you start with like okay who is God how is he faithful how has he who is God how is he faithful how has he who is God how is he faithful how has he made provision for me to actually be made provision for me to actually be made provision for me to actually be capable of faithfulness through Christ capable of faithfulness through Christ capable of faithfulness through Christ then I can one another in the right way then I can one another in the right way then I can one another in the right way and so I think when we're ask I mean and so I think when we're ask I mean and so I think when we're ask I mean Winfrey is asking all the hard questions

Winfrey is asking all the hard questions Winfrey is asking all the hard questions today I mean I don't know if you guys I today I mean I don't know if you guys I today I mean I don't know if you guys I mean these are hard that's why this is mean these are hard that's why this is mean these are hard that's why this is the fun SE these are the hard I I'm the fun SE these are the hard I I'm the fun SE these are the hard I I'm sitting here like I don't know but they sitting here like I don't know but they sitting here like I don't know but they are really hard questions but I think are really hard questions but I think are really hard questions but I think when we're talking about like how do we when we're talking about like how do we when we're talking about like how do we not just question God or just go like oh not just question God or just go like oh not just question God or just go like oh I guess the church I mean how do we see I guess the church I mean how do we see I guess the church I mean how do we see real transformation if I mean all you real transformation if I mean all you real transformation if I mean all you have to do is open social media and have to do is open social media and have to do is open social media and every day something disappointing is every day something disappointing is every day something disappointing is happening in the church right I mean we happening in the church right I mean we happening in the church right I mean we all see it we all hear about it we all all see it we all hear about it we all all see it we all hear about it we all feel like what you know there's this feel like what you know there's this feel like what you know there's this disappointment that's happening but one disappointment that's happening but one disappointment that's happening but one of the first things I always remind of the first things I always remind of the first things I always remind myself is okay God's already he's myself is okay God's already he's myself is okay God's already he's already won the victory like this all already won the victory like this all already won the victory like this all this is happening between now and when this is happening between now and when this is happening between now and when we need no light in heaven is that we're we need no light in heaven is that we're we need no light in heaven is that we're being transformed all of us even the being transformed all of us even the being transformed all of us even the ones who take a couple of laps around ones who take a couple of laps around ones who take a couple of laps around the sanctification process over and over the sanctification process over and over the sanctification process over and over and over again including myself so the and over again including myself so the and over again including myself so the ultimate point is to remember that God ultimate point is to remember that God ultimate point is to remember that God is who he says he is and he's is who he says he is and he's is who he says he is and he's transforming us he's transforming us transforming us he's transforming us transforming us he's transforming us right making us conform to His Image right making us conform to His Image right making us conform to His Image through all this stuff even the hurt through all this stuff even the hurt through all this stuff even the hurt that we that we that we experience yeah and I love that one experience yeah and I love that one experience yeah and I love that one another emphasis because um Karen keeps another emphasis because um Karen keeps another emphasis because um Karen keeps saying we are the church this is we I saying we are the church this is we I saying we are the church this is we I think it's so tempting in situations think it's so tempting in situations think it's so tempting in situations where we're hurt to just think about how where we're hurt to just think about how where we're hurt to just think about how does this impact me what will I do about does this impact me what will I do about does this impact me what will I do about it how will I get you know my needs met it how will I get you know my needs met it how will I get you know my needs met and those it's not wrong to think about and those it's not wrong to think about and those it's not wrong to think about those things but this one another those things but this one another those things but this one another emphasis says and um something I said as emphasis says and um something I said as emphasis says and um something I said as well that there's also sanctification

well that there's also sanctification well that there's also sanctification View for the other person right that the View for the other person right that the View for the other person right that the person who has failed us the Lord still person who has failed us the Lord still person who has failed us the Lord still intends to work in their lives um and so intends to work in their lives um and so intends to work in their lives um and so having that one another Focus lets us having that one another Focus lets us having that one another Focus lets us see the Lord's doing something in my see the Lord's doing something in my see the Lord's doing something in my life he's doing something in this life he's doing something in this life he's doing something in this person's life he's doing something in my person's life he's doing something in my person's life he's doing something in my sister's life who's walking through this sister's life who's walking through this sister's life who's walking through this with me um there's a much bigger plan in with me um there's a much bigger plan in with me um there's a much bigger plan in view than just the way that I've view than just the way that I've view than just the way that I've received this or I'm processing it yeah received this or I'm processing it yeah received this or I'm processing it yeah that's so good um well as we navigate that's so good um well as we navigate that's so good um well as we navigate these these these situations uh one of the the tricky situations uh one of the the tricky situations uh one of the the tricky questions we will some times come to is questions we will some times come to is questions we will some times come to is um has something happened in our church um has something happened in our church um has something happened in our church that is so egregious so concerning that that is so egregious so concerning that that is so egregious so concerning that we should actually consider changing we should actually consider changing we should actually consider changing churches um we we talked a little bit churches um we we talked a little bit churches um we we talked a little bit about how do we know if the leader is about how do we know if the leader is about how do we know if the leader is repentant but there are larger repentant but there are larger repentant but there are larger structures in place at the church and so structures in place at the church and so structures in place at the church and so um how do we think through that um how do we think through that um how do we think through that evaluation of a whole church and maybe a evaluation of a whole church and maybe a evaluation of a whole church and maybe a need to move what does that look like need to move what does that look like need to move what does that look like what might bring us to the point of what might bring us to the point of what might bring us to the point of leaving a church body and how to do we leaving a church body and how to do we leaving a church body and how to do we think through that think through that think through that well yeah well it's got to be a slow well yeah well it's got to be a slow well yeah well it's got to be a slow process I think it's got to be a process I think it's got to be a process I think it's got to be a prayerful process and I can tell you on prayerful process and I can tell you on prayerful process and I can tell you on the days when I want to bolt and think the days when I want to bolt and think the days when I want to bolt and think like I'm just going to take my living like I'm just going to take my living like I'm just going to take my living Stone and go over here and be a lone Stone and go over here and be a lone Stone and go over here and be a lone stone and just do my own thing you know stone and just do my own thing you know stone and just do my own thing you know or whatever I just want to pull out and or whatever I just want to pull out and or whatever I just want to pull out and amputate part of the body um and I feel amputate part of the body um and I feel amputate part of the body um and I feel that way as a pastor's wife often I come that way as a pastor's wife often I come that way as a pastor's wife often I come back to this quote that that grounds me back to this quote that that grounds me back to this quote that that grounds me to necessarily love Christ is to love

to necessarily love Christ is to love to necessarily love Christ is to love his church I cannot say I love his church I cannot say I love his church I cannot say I love Jesus and and say that I don't love the Jesus and and say that I don't love the Jesus and and say that I don't love the church which is you and you and you and church which is you and you and you and church which is you and you and you and you okay so then I wrestle with it right you okay so then I wrestle with it right you okay so then I wrestle with it right so let's say we get to the point where so let's say we get to the point where so let's say we get to the point where yes we've determined this is not a yes we've determined this is not a yes we've determined this is not a healthy place where I can I can healthy place where I can I can healthy place where I can I can spiritually flourish my family can spiritually flourish my family can spiritually flourish my family can spiritually flourish um if you're you we spiritually flourish um if you're you we spiritually flourish um if you're you we don't make those decisions independent don't make those decisions independent don't make those decisions independent of our family in other words God always of our family in other words God always of our family in other words God always leads families and we see that all leads families and we see that all leads families and we see that all throughout scripture so I think it's throughout scripture so I think it's throughout scripture so I think it's something that we're prayerful about something that we're prayerful about something that we're prayerful about with our family but I but in our church with our family but I but in our church with our family but I but in our church we take membership vows we take Covenant we take membership vows we take Covenant we take membership vows we take Covenant vows and I say I belong to God and I vows and I say I belong to God and I vows and I say I belong to God and I belong to you and so for me to break a belong to you and so for me to break a belong to you and so for me to break a vow I have to I have to vow I have to I have to vow I have to I have to rehearse why I love Christ if I love rehearse why I love Christ if I love rehearse why I love Christ if I love Christ I love his church I'm not saying Christ I love his church I'm not saying Christ I love his church I'm not saying you don't leave but I say you if you you don't leave but I say you if you you don't leave but I say you if you leave then you leave prayerfully humbly leave then you leave prayerfully humbly leave then you leave prayerfully humbly and graciously well and I mean I think we've graciously well and I mean I think we've already touched on this too but that already touched on this too but that already touched on this too but that it's not an independent decision it's not an independent decision it's not an independent decision independent of the process there's a independent of the process there's a independent of the process there's a process of that Matthew 18 conversation process of that Matthew 18 conversation process of that Matthew 18 conversation there is a process of um giving there is a process of um giving there is a process of um giving opportunity for things to be made right opportunity for things to be made right opportunity for things to be made right being made right doesn't mean it's on being made right doesn't mean it's on being made right doesn't mean it's on your or my timeline right sometimes I'm your or my timeline right sometimes I'm your or my timeline right sometimes I'm like that should have happened last week like that should have happened last week like that should have happened last week but the Lord might be taking um your

but the Lord might be taking um your but the Lord might be taking um your church through a journey that's not church through a journey that's not church through a journey that's not going to happen as quickly as you expect going to happen as quickly as you expect going to happen as quickly as you expect and so obviously we're talking about and so obviously we're talking about and so obviously we're talking about things where I can think of five things where I can think of five things where I can think of five different scenarios that will be treated different scenarios that will be treated different scenarios that will be treated all differently so it might be something all differently so it might be something all differently so it might be something different in your mind but I think different in your mind but I think different in your mind but I think overall what applies and what's true overall what applies and what's true overall what applies and what's true over and over again is what Karen just over and over again is what Karen just over and over again is what Karen just described is that we need to remember described is that we need to remember described is that we need to remember that church and our um local body that that church and our um local body that that church and our um local body that is a family and that you're not just is a family and that you're not just is a family and that you're not just you're I mean despite the way I think a you're I mean despite the way I think a you're I mean despite the way I think a lot of modern churches can be you're not lot of modern churches can be you're not lot of modern churches can be you're not just showing up and like it's not like just showing up and like it's not like just showing up and like it's not like attending a conference right it's not attending a conference right it's not attending a conference right it's not like you're just popping in to see like you're just popping in to see like you're just popping in to see what's going on if you are a member or a what's going on if you are a member or a what's going on if you are a member or a if your church has membership or if you if your church has membership or if you if your church has membership or if you are you know a committed member of that are you know a committed member of that are you know a committed member of that local body you are really part of the local body you are really part of the local body you are really part of the family and family members do work things family and family members do work things family and family members do work things out and do give opportunity to make out and do give opportunity to make out and do give opportunity to make those things right and you don't just those things right and you don't just those things right and you don't just rehearse a problem in your mind and just rehearse a problem in your mind and just rehearse a problem in your mind and just say that's it I'm done you actually go say that's it I'm done you actually go say that's it I'm done you actually go and work those things out and I might and work those things out and I might and work those things out and I might say if you're the person who's standing say if you're the person who's standing say if you're the person who's standing at the door when somebody leaves my at the door when somebody leaves my at the door when somebody leaves my husband always says keep your foot in husband always says keep your foot in husband always says keep your foot in the door because sometimes people need the door because sometimes people need the door because sometimes people need to leave for a season and prayerfully to leave for a season and prayerfully to leave for a season and prayerfully work through what's going on in their work through what's going on in their work through what's going on in their life and the hospitality of the Gospel life and the hospitality of the Gospel life and the hospitality of the Gospel always has a foot in the door to welcome always has a foot in the door to welcome always has a foot in the door to welcome a brother and sister back into the a brother and sister back into the a brother and sister back into the family of of God and so I have to think family of of God and so I have to think family of of God and so I have to think about that a lot because I mean Tim about that a lot because I mean Tim about that a lot because I mean Tim Keller often said Ministry means having

Keller often said Ministry means having Keller often said Ministry means having to say goodbye I never liked that that to say goodbye I never liked that that to say goodbye I never liked that that he said that he said so many awesome he said that he said so many awesome he said that he said so many awesome things but that one thing I never liked things but that one thing I never liked things but that one thing I never liked because as a as a a pastor's wife I because as a as a a pastor's wife I because as a as a a pastor's wife I don't want to ever say goodbye to don't want to ever say goodbye to don't want to ever say goodbye to somebody but I try to remember to keep somebody but I try to remember to keep somebody but I try to remember to keep my foot in the door because often times my foot in the door because often times my foot in the door because often times people come back yeah and that brings up people come back yeah and that brings up people come back yeah and that brings up another good point which is in these another good point which is in these another good point which is in these situations there will be often people situations there will be often people situations there will be often people who feel led to leave but there will be who feel led to leave but there will be who feel led to leave but there will be those who stay whether it's because those who stay whether it's because those who stay whether it's because you're on staff um or as a member my you're on staff um or as a member my you're on staff um or as a member my family's been in a situation where um a family's been in a situation where um a family's been in a situation where um a lot of families left our church we felt lot of families left our church we felt lot of families left our church we felt led to stay and that can be a really led to stay and that can be a really led to stay and that can be a really painful position to be in as you see painful position to be in as you see painful position to be in as you see people that you love leave and they used people that you love leave and they used people that you love leave and they used to share the Pew with you and now to share the Pew with you and now to share the Pew with you and now they're not there and even if you you they're not there and even if you you they're not there and even if you you know support and believe they've made a know support and believe they've made a know support and believe they've made a Godly decision and and they've left well Godly decision and and they've left well Godly decision and and they've left well and they've done all these things that and they've done all these things that and they've done all these things that we've talked about it can still be we've talked about it can still be we've talked about it can still be really hard to be left behind in one of really hard to be left behind in one of really hard to be left behind in one of those situation so Irene how do we those situation so Irene how do we those situation so Irene how do we navigate that navigate that navigate that well so the acronym for our church is well so the acronym for our church is well so the acronym for our church is Pittsburgh Chinese Church for PCC but Pittsburgh Chinese Church for PCC but Pittsburgh Chinese Church for PCC but because a lot of people ask me like can because a lot of people ask me like can because a lot of people ask me like can I come to your church even though I'm I come to your church even though I'm I come to your church even though I'm not Chinese so I've been starting I I not Chinese so I've been starting I I not Chinese so I've been starting I I started telling people our our PCC started telling people our our PCC started telling people our our PCC actually stands for preach Christ actually stands for preach Christ actually stands for preach Christ crucified so for those who stays and crucified so for those who stays and crucified so for those who stays and decided that they will remain and decided that they will remain and decided that they will remain and continue to be part of the body that is continue to be part of the body that is continue to be part of the body that is what I would encourage you to do to keep what I would encourage you to do to keep what I would encourage you to do to keep preaching Christ crucified ifed and that preaching Christ crucified ifed and that preaching Christ crucified ifed and that is to be conformed to his image and the

is to be conformed to his image and the is to be conformed to his image and the image that we are conforming to is an image that we are conforming to is an image that we are conforming to is an image of the crucified Christ that is image of the crucified Christ that is image of the crucified Christ that is pierced hands pierced feet pierced hands pierced feet pierced hands pierced feet bleeding head Pierce bleeding head Pierce bleeding head Pierce sides we are not being conformed to the sides we are not being conformed to the sides we are not being conformed to the image of a glorified Christ we will be image of a glorified Christ we will be image of a glorified Christ we will be but right now we are preaching Christ but right now we are preaching Christ but right now we are preaching Christ crucified and so that is what we are to crucified and so that is what we are to crucified and so that is what we are to do what we are called to do as we remain do what we are called to do as we remain do what we are called to do as we remain ask the Lord to help us to to love ask the Lord to help us to to love ask the Lord to help us to to love people more and to need them less so as people more and to need them less so as people more and to need them less so as we are being amputated as our the body we are being amputated as our the body we are being amputated as our the body our local church is changing as we are our local church is changing as we are our local church is changing as we are missing an eye and missing a toe and we missing an eye and missing a toe and we missing an eye and missing a toe and we pray Lord please help me to need need pray Lord please help me to need need pray Lord please help me to need need them less but to love the ones who them less but to love the ones who them less but to love the ones who stayed more and and at the end of the stayed more and and at the end of the stayed more and and at the end of the book of job because we talked about how book of job because we talked about how book of job because we talked about how job prayed Yahweh calls job to pray for job prayed Yahweh calls job to pray for job prayed Yahweh calls job to pray for his friends he his friends he his friends he says to he commanded his friends to says to he commanded his friends to says to he commanded his friends to offer seven bowls and seven Rams offer offer seven bowls and seven Rams offer offer seven bowls and seven Rams offer them as burnt offerings go to job and them as burnt offerings go to job and them as burnt offerings go to job and ask him to pray for you and my servant ask him to pray for you and my servant ask him to pray for you and my servant job shall pray for you for I will accept job shall pray for you for I will accept job shall pray for you for I will accept his prayer not to deal with you his prayer not to deal with you his prayer not to deal with you according to your Folly so pray for

according to your Folly so pray for according to your Folly so pray for those who hurt you but also pray for those who hurt you but also pray for those who hurt you but also pray for those who stayed pray for the leaders those who stayed pray for the leaders those who stayed pray for the leaders and pray for the family of God just a and pray for the family of God just a and pray for the family of God just a side note I think if we remember that we side note I think if we remember that we side note I think if we remember that we belong to the Big C Body of Christ like belong to the Big C Body of Christ like belong to the Big C Body of Christ like the church then yes you can't give up the church then yes you can't give up the church then yes you can't give up your time and you can't stay in touch your time and you can't stay in touch your time and you can't stay in touch deeply with every single person from deeply with every single person from deeply with every single person from every church but remember if you're every church but remember if you're every church but remember if you're staying or you're going or even if you staying or you're going or even if you staying or you're going or even if you have a conflict of like not agreeing have a conflict of like not agreeing have a conflict of like not agreeing like we were talking about earlier not like we were talking about earlier not like we were talking about earlier not seeing it exactly the same way that's seeing it exactly the same way that's seeing it exactly the same way that's still your sister in Christ that's still still your sister in Christ that's still still your sister in Christ that's still your brother in Christ you're still your brother in Christ you're still your brother in Christ you're still practicing for all of eternity what practicing for all of eternity what practicing for all of eternity what you're you're going to spend eternity you're you're going to spend eternity you're you're going to spend eternity with this person so it it's actually with this person so it it's actually with this person so it it's actually really lovely to sometimes just check in really lovely to sometimes just check in really lovely to sometimes just check in on somebody like with like Karen said on somebody like with like Karen said on somebody like with like Karen said with the your foot in the door right we with the your foot in the door right we with the your foot in the door right we can like check in on people that just can like check in on people that just can like check in on people that just because um there was was this part this because um there was was this part this because um there was was this part this painful part of that relationship painful part of that relationship painful part of that relationship doesn't mean you don't have to you know doesn't mean you don't have to you know doesn't mean you don't have to you know doesn't mean that you shouldn't stop doesn't mean that you shouldn't stop doesn't mean that you shouldn't stop caring for one another if you see one caring for one another if you see one caring for one another if you see one another meet for coffee even if they're another meet for coffee even if they're another meet for coffee even if they're not at your church anymore you can not at your church anymore you can not at your church anymore you can actually like go to coffee and hear actually like go to coffee and hear actually like go to coffee and hear what's going on in their lives and um I what's going on in their lives and um I what's going on in their lives and um I I 100% love membership and again like I I 100% love membership and again like I I 100% love membership and again like I think that critical decision to really think that critical decision to really think that critical decision to really Covenant with people but I also think Covenant with people but I also think Covenant with people but I also think sometimes we get so like we forget that sometimes we get so like we forget that sometimes we get so like we forget that we belong to the large like the actual

we belong to the large like the actual we belong to the large like the actual Body of Christ the church where we need Body of Christ the church where we need Body of Christ the church where we need to just love one another and care care to just love one another and care care to just love one another and care care even if if we're walking in some even if if we're walking in some even if if we're walking in some different paths yeah I think that's so different paths yeah I think that's so different paths yeah I think that's so good and we're almost out of time but I good and we're almost out of time but I good and we're almost out of time but I want to just end on a note of healing want to just end on a note of healing want to just end on a note of healing and thinking about what does healing and thinking about what does healing and thinking about what does healing look like after church hurt and I think look like after church hurt and I think look like after church hurt and I think you know it we would tend to think that you know it we would tend to think that you know it we would tend to think that you uh would want to get as far away you uh would want to get as far away you uh would want to get as far away from something that has hurt you as from something that has hurt you as from something that has hurt you as Apostle but I think we would all um Apostle but I think we would all um Apostle but I think we would all um affirm the fact that the place to be affirm the fact that the place to be affirm the fact that the place to be healed from church hurt is actually in healed from church hurt is actually in healed from church hurt is actually in the church right so Karen can you maybe the church right so Karen can you maybe the church right so Karen can you maybe give us one final encouragement along give us one final encouragement along give us one final encouragement along those lines as we close down why is the those lines as we close down why is the those lines as we close down why is the church the place to find Healing from church the place to find Healing from church the place to find Healing from church HD well because he ordained that church HD well because he ordained that church HD well because he ordained that he ordained it and that's why it's good he ordained it and that's why it's good he ordained it and that's why it's good and so we lean in even when we want to and so we lean in even when we want to and so we lean in even when we want to lean out and when we we bump up against lean out and when we we bump up against lean out and when we we bump up against hurt or we get wounded with hurt that is hurt or we get wounded with hurt that is hurt or we get wounded with hurt that is his big purpose his big purpose his big purpose of sanctifying the church and that's you of sanctifying the church and that's you of sanctifying the church and that's you and that's me and one day everything and that's me and one day everything and that's me and one day everything that hurts right now that's hard that's that hurts right now that's hard that's that hurts right now that's hard that's dark that's yucky will be dark that's yucky will be dark that's yucky will be white because one day we're going to white because one day we're going to white because one day we're going to feast in Zion there'll be a great feast in Zion there'll be a great feast in Zion there'll be a great wedding feast and the church Eternal wedding feast and the church Eternal wedding feast and the church Eternal will be white and pure and we will be will be white and pure and we will be will be white and pure and we will be together forever and so on the days you together forever and so on the days you together forever and so on the days you want to look want to look want to look in or you want to look out I encourage

in or you want to look out I encourage in or you want to look out I encourage you to look up and look to the end of you to look up and look to the end of you to look up and look to the end of the story that's where we find our hope the story that's where we find our hope the story that's where we find our hope we all want to grow in our faith and we all want to grow in our faith and we all want to grow in our faith and knowledge of the Bible but it's hard to knowledge of the Bible but it's hard to knowledge of the Bible but it's hard to do it on your own did you know that the do it on your own did you know that the do it on your own did you know that the Gospel Coalition offers live online Gospel Coalition offers live online Gospel Coalition offers live online cohorts where you can learn and grow cohorts where you can learn and grow cohorts where you can learn and grow alongside others led by trusted pastors alongside others led by trusted pastors alongside others led by trusted pastors teachers authors and speakers TGC teachers authors and speakers TGC teachers authors and speakers TGC cohorts dive deeper into topics like cohorts dive deeper into topics like cohorts dive deeper into topics like parenting sexuality biblical theology parenting sexuality biblical theology parenting sexuality biblical theology cultural apologetics and more so visit cultural apologetics and more so visit cultural apologetics and more so visit tgc.org cohorts to see which ones are tgc.org cohorts to see which ones are tgc.org cohorts to see which ones are available now or you can click the link available now or you can click the link available now or you can click the link below