When You (or a Friend) Face Unwanted Divorce (with Vaneetha Risner & Wendy Alsup) [The Deep Dish 36]

God is writing a good story with your God is writing a good story with your life. life. life. Like this is not the end. Like this is not the end. Like this is not the end. >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> And so hang on to God and trust him. He >> And so hang on to God and trust him. He >> And so hang on to God and trust him. He will walk [music] you through what feels will walk [music] you through what feels will walk [music] you through what feels unthinkable. >> Welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from >> Welcome to The Deep Dish, a podcast from The Gospel Coalition where we love The Gospel Coalition where we love The Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and today my truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and today my truths. I'm Courtney Doctor and today my guests are Venita Resner and Wendy guests are Venita Resner and Wendy guests are Venita Resner and Wendy Alsup. Venita and Wendy, thank you so Alsup. Venita and Wendy, thank you so Alsup. Venita and Wendy, thank you so much for being here with us today. much for being here with us today. much for being here with us today. Thanks. Thank you for having us. Thanks. Thank you for having us. Thanks. Thank you for having us. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, it's not a light topic, that's for >> Well, it's not a light topic, that's for >> Well, it's not a light topic, that's for sure. Um sure. Um sure. Um it's we were just praying and talking it's we were just praying and talking it's we were just praying and talking before we hit record just that this is a before we hit record just that this is a before we hit record just that this is a a weighty topic. Um we're going to be a weighty topic. Um we're going to be a weighty topic. Um we're going to be talking about unwanted divorce, which talking about unwanted divorce, which talking about unwanted divorce, which we're defining as a divorce either we're defining as a divorce either we're defining as a divorce either initiated by your spouse against your initiated by your spouse against your initiated by your spouse against your wishes or initiated by you because your wishes or initiated by you because your wishes or initiated by you because your spouse's behavior has created biblical spouse's behavior has created biblical spouse's behavior has created biblical grounds for divorce. And I just want to grounds for divorce. And I just want to grounds for divorce. And I just want to begin by stating the obvious that at begin by stating the obvious that at begin by stating the obvious that at some level all divorce is unwanted. I some level all divorce is unwanted. I some level all divorce is unwanted. I don't think anybody gets married hoping don't think anybody gets married hoping don't think anybody gets married hoping that they will get divorced. Um it's that they will get divorced. Um it's that they will get divorced. Um it's always painful.

always painful. always painful. And so we are praying and hoping that And so we are praying and hoping that And so we are praying and hoping that this conversation not only provides this conversation not only provides this conversation not only provides comfort and help for anyone who has comfort and help for anyone who has comfort and help for anyone who has experienced or is experiencing divorce. experienced or is experiencing divorce. experienced or is experiencing divorce. We also hope it will help all of us walk We also hope it will help all of us walk We also hope it will help all of us walk alongside our friends and sisters who alongside our friends and sisters who alongside our friends and sisters who either have or are. And so Wendy and either have or are. And so Wendy and either have or are. And so Wendy and Venita, one thing I love about both of Venita, one thing I love about both of Venita, one thing I love about both of you being on here is your stories are you being on here is your stories are you being on here is your stories are very different. And so what I'd like to very different. And so what I'd like to very different. And so what I'd like to do is to start by simply asking you to do is to start by simply asking you to do is to start by simply asking you to share your story with us and I want to share your story with us and I want to share your story with us and I want to say on the front end, thank you for your say on the front end, thank you for your say on the front end, thank you for your willingness to do that. willingness to do that. willingness to do that. Um it's a gift and something for us all Um it's a gift and something for us all Um it's a gift and something for us all to receive with gratitude. And so, I'm to receive with gratitude. And so, I'm to receive with gratitude. And so, I'm hoping again that your stories will um hoping again that your stories will um hoping again that your stories will um serve to help and encourage anyone serve to help and encourage anyone serve to help and encourage anyone listening. So, Wendy, would you would listening. So, Wendy, would you would listening. So, Wendy, would you would you go first? you go first? you go first? Sure. Sure. Sure. So, um my husband and I have been So, um my husband and I have been So, um my husband and I have been married about 14 years when in 2012 he married about 14 years when in 2012 he married about 14 years when in 2012 he had the onset of um really severe had the onset of um really severe had the onset of um really severe symptoms of what we would later figure symptoms of what we would later figure symptoms of what we would later figure out was schizophrenia.

out was schizophrenia. out was schizophrenia. And um he had several hospital stays, um And um he had several hospital stays, um And um he had several hospital stays, um was resistant to treatment, and in 2014 was resistant to treatment, and in 2014 was resistant to treatment, and in 2014 when our boys were maybe eight and nine when our boys were maybe eight and nine when our boys were maybe eight and nine or eight and 10, or eight and 10, or eight and 10, he um did something that made me feel he um did something that made me feel he um did something that made me feel unsafe, and I had to file for legal unsafe, and I had to file for legal unsafe, and I had to file for legal separation. And I had really really separation. And I had really really separation. And I had really really hoped that he would get on medicine, hoped that he would get on medicine, hoped that he would get on medicine, that we could reconcile, that he could that we could reconcile, that he could that we could reconcile, that he could come back home, but he then come back home, but he then come back home, but he then um took it to the next level of divorce. um took it to the next level of divorce. um took it to the next level of divorce. So, in 2015 we were divorced, and um So, in 2015 we were divorced, and um So, in 2015 we were divorced, and um that was 10 years ago. He's still um in that was 10 years ago. He's still um in that was 10 years ago. He's still um in our lives. He's disabled our lives. He's disabled our lives. He's disabled through mental illness and some other through mental illness and some other through mental illness and some other health issues, health issues, health issues, um but we have not reconciled. Thank um but we have not reconciled. Thank um but we have not reconciled. Thank you. Benita, do you mind telling us your you. Benita, do you mind telling us your you. Benita, do you mind telling us your story? Yeah, um story? Yeah, um story? Yeah, um we'd been married 17 years, and um we'd been married 17 years, and um we'd been married 17 years, and um my ex-husband came home and said from a my ex-husband came home and said from a my ex-husband came home and said from a business trip and said he had met business trip and said he had met business trip and said he had met someone else.

someone else. someone else. As it unfolded, I out he had they had As it unfolded, I out he had they had As it unfolded, I out he had they had been in a relationship for a year. been in a relationship for a year. been in a relationship for a year. And um so, And um so, And um so, we he did not know if he wanted divorce we he did not know if he wanted divorce we he did not know if he wanted divorce though, so I was just trying to figure though, so I was just trying to figure though, so I was just trying to figure all of that out. So, we were in all of that out. So, we were in all of that out. So, we were in counseling just trying to figure counseling just trying to figure counseling just trying to figure what to do out. We had two daughters um what to do out. We had two daughters um what to do out. We had two daughters um who were um 11 and 13 or 10 and 13. So, who were um 11 and 13 or 10 and 13. So, who were um 11 and 13 or 10 and 13. So, I was praying and asking the Lord for I was praying and asking the Lord for I was praying and asking the Lord for wisdom and wisdom and wisdom and it took a long time to make it um it took a long time to make it um it took a long time to make it um really clear. So, [clears throat] it was really clear. So, [clears throat] it was really clear. So, [clears throat] it was a very hard process. And we are friends a very hard process. And we are friends a very hard process. And we are friends now, but obviously not reconciled. Well, now, but obviously not reconciled. Well, now, but obviously not reconciled. Well, and Vinita, you know, you and I are and Vinita, you know, you and I are and Vinita, you know, you and I are well, we all three are real-life well, we all three are real-life well, we all three are real-life friends. Um you've also written about friends. Um you've also written about friends. Um you've also written about your stories that uh in books that I your stories that uh in books that I your stories that uh in books that I we're going to put in the show notes we're going to put in the show notes we're going to put in the show notes because they are amazing. So, I know in because they are amazing. So, I know in because they are amazing. So, I know in Walking Through Fire, you also this Walking Through Fire, you also this Walking Through Fire, you also this wasn't even the first time. And you had wasn't even the first time. And you had wasn't even the first time. And you had not only gone through the death of a not only gone through the death of a not only gone through the death of a child, but you had gone through previous child, but you had gone through previous child, but you had gone through previous infidelity with um the same with the infidelity with um the same with the infidelity with um the same with the same husband, your first husband. Um and same husband, your first husband. Um and same husband, your first husband. Um and so, this was kind of just wounding upon so, this was kind of just wounding upon so, this was kind of just wounding upon upon wounding upon wounding when upon wounding upon wounding when upon wounding upon wounding when when you finally um realized that he was when you finally um realized that he was when you finally um realized that he was not um actually repentant, but not um actually repentant, but not um actually repentant, but continuing continuing continuing um continuing in sin. Yeah. And I mean, um continuing in sin. Yeah. And I mean, um continuing in sin. Yeah. And I mean, one thing that my pastor said that was one thing that my pastor said that was one thing that my pastor said that was really helpful is repentance has fruit.

really helpful is repentance has fruit. really helpful is repentance has fruit. And so, you don't want to have him move And so, you don't want to have him move And so, you don't want to have him move back in back in back in until you see fruit. until you see fruit. until you see fruit. And that was something I had, you know, And that was something I had, you know, And that was something I had, you know, written every day, like, help me see written every day, like, help me see written every day, like, help me see fruit. Help me to know what you want me fruit. Help me to know what you want me fruit. Help me to know what you want me to do. And that was a very helpful to do. And that was a very helpful to do. And that was a very helpful statement that he made. But yeah, at statement that he made. But yeah, at statement that he made. But yeah, at that point, we I had been through a lot. that point, we I had been through a lot. that point, we I had been through a lot. We'd been through a lot together. Yeah. We'd been through a lot together. Yeah. We'd been through a lot together. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Which is why I wanted to hold on when >> Which is why I wanted to hold on when >> Which is why I wanted to hold on when you go through a lot of struggles you go through a lot of struggles you go through a lot of struggles together. Well, we've already talked together. Well, we've already talked together. Well, we've already talked about um this phrase biblical grounds about um this phrase biblical grounds about um this phrase biblical grounds for divorce. And so, do you guys would for divorce. And so, do you guys would for divorce. And so, do you guys would you kind of talk about what that is and you kind of talk about what that is and you kind of talk about what that is and sort of set the parameters for us as we sort of set the parameters for us as we sort of set the parameters for us as we as we enter into this conversation as we enter into this conversation as we enter into this conversation talking about um how we how we walk talking about um how we how we walk talking about um how we how we walk through these things. Can you each kind through these things. Can you each kind through these things. Can you each kind of speak into what what does that mean, of speak into what what does that mean, of speak into what what does that mean, biblical grounds for divorce? Yeah. I biblical grounds for divorce? Yeah. I biblical grounds for divorce? Yeah. I would say um one, infidelity is very would say um one, infidelity is very would say um one, infidelity is very clear in in scripture. And then Paul So, clear in in scripture. And then Paul So, clear in in scripture. And then Paul So, Jesus talks about that and then Paul Jesus talks about that and then Paul Jesus talks about that and then Paul talks about talks about talks about abandonment by an unbelieving spouse.

abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. abandonment by an unbelieving spouse. And And And that those are the two super clear that those are the two super clear that those are the two super clear lines, but a lot of people would say lines, but a lot of people would say lines, but a lot of people would say that abuse is really abandoning the that abuse is really abandoning the that abuse is really abandoning the covenant because that's really a lot of covenant because that's really a lot of covenant because that's really a lot of what abandonment is. It doesn't have to what abandonment is. It doesn't have to what abandonment is. It doesn't have to be physical, but abandoning the covenant be physical, but abandoning the covenant be physical, but abandoning the covenant that the person made. that the person made. that the person made. >> Well, I think that's such an important >> Well, I think that's such an important >> Well, I think that's such an important distinction because I think a lot of distinction because I think a lot of distinction because I think a lot of times we think of abandonment as of the times we think of abandonment as of the times we think of abandonment as of the person and and yet the spouse is still person and and yet the spouse is still person and and yet the spouse is still there, but the abandonment of the there, but the abandonment of the there, but the abandonment of the covenant of the covenantal promises and covenant of the covenantal promises and covenant of the covenantal promises and what's promised and pledged in the what's promised and pledged in the what's promised and pledged in the covenant. Um, it's why the the words we covenant. Um, it's why the the words we covenant. Um, it's why the the words we speak in the ceremony matter because speak in the ceremony matter because speak in the ceremony matter because that's one of the things that we would that's one of the things that we would that's one of the things that we would then be looking at. Wendy, what about then be looking at. Wendy, what about then be looking at. Wendy, what about you? you? you? Yeah, and I I think for sure um safety Yeah, and I I think for sure um safety Yeah, and I I think for sure um safety issues for you or your children are issues for you or your children are issues for you or your children are really really important. I was fortunate really really important. I was fortunate really really important. I was fortunate in Washington state to have the in Washington state to have the in Washington state to have the opportunity for legal separation. And opportunity for legal separation. And opportunity for legal separation. And not every state offers that, but that not every state offers that, but that not every state offers that, but that was really good and um a helpful tool was really good and um a helpful tool was really good and um a helpful tool for me to remove me and my children when for me to remove me and my children when for me to remove me and my children when I felt unsafe.

I felt unsafe. I felt unsafe. Um and for a lot of if your state allows Um and for a lot of if your state allows Um and for a lot of if your state allows that, that is a good resource to use if that, that is a good resource to use if that, that is a good resource to use if you're unsure about what to do you're unsure about what to do you're unsure about what to do long-term, but you have a short-term long-term, but you have a short-term long-term, but you have a short-term immediate need that there are some immediate need that there are some immediate need that there are some options. options. options. Mhm. Mhm. Mhm. Well, I would love to know just as you Well, I would love to know just as you Well, I would love to know just as you were going through a time that was were going through a time that was were going through a time that was obviously incredibly painful and brutal, obviously incredibly painful and brutal, obviously incredibly painful and brutal, what what promises, what scriptures, what what promises, what scriptures, what what promises, what scriptures, where did the Lord in his word meet you where did the Lord in his word meet you where did the Lord in his word meet you in this that you could just like in this that you could just like in this that you could just like lifelines from the Lord to cling to? I lifelines from the Lord to cling to? I lifelines from the Lord to cling to? I have one um have one um have one um that I ended up getting the Lord brought that I ended up getting the Lord brought that I ended up getting the Lord brought it in my reading early on and I ended up it in my reading early on and I ended up it in my reading early on and I ended up making it into a wall hanging and it was making it into a wall hanging and it was making it into a wall hanging and it was Deuteronomy 10:18 and it's just about Deuteronomy 10:18 and it's just about Deuteronomy 10:18 and it's just about God's character and his character is God's character and his character is God's character and his character is that he executes justice for the that he executes justice for the that he executes justice for the fatherless and the widow and loves the fatherless and the widow and loves the fatherless and the widow and loves the sojourner giving him food and clothing. sojourner giving him food and clothing. sojourner giving him food and clothing. Mhm. And I that was the promise I needed Mhm. And I that was the promise I needed Mhm. And I that was the promise I needed because I really in many ways did feel because I really in many ways did feel because I really in many ways did feel like a widow even if I didn't like a widow even if I didn't like a widow even if I didn't technically, you know, meet that technically, you know, meet that technically, you know, meet that description. My children were fatherless description. My children were fatherless description. My children were fatherless um for a period of time and I was a um for a period of time and I was a um for a period of time and I was a sojourner. I had to pick up everything sojourner. I had to pick up everything sojourner. I had to pick up everything and move. And so just knowing that God's and move. And so just knowing that God's and move. And so just knowing that God's character character character loved me in this situation and you know, loved me in this situation and you know, loved me in this situation and you know, not just when I was a happily married or not just when I was a happily married or not just when I was a happily married or stably married woman, but as a as in stably married woman, but as a as in stably married woman, but as a as in this particular crisis, his character is this particular crisis, his character is this particular crisis, his character is to love and provide. Danita, what about to love and provide. Danita, what about to love and provide. Danita, what about you? Yeah. Well, I would say I mean

you? Yeah. Well, I would say I mean you? Yeah. Well, I would say I mean there's so many scriptures and I know there's so many scriptures and I know there's so many scriptures and I know Wendy would say that as well. I mean, Wendy would say that as well. I mean, Wendy would say that as well. I mean, one that really one that really one that really stuck me there are two. Um stuck me there are two. Um stuck me there are two. Um They were a lot about one group is just They were a lot about one group is just They were a lot about one group is just that God was with me cuz I felt so that God was with me cuz I felt so that God was with me cuz I felt so abandoned. Like I felt more alone than I abandoned. Like I felt more alone than I abandoned. Like I felt more alone than I was than when I was single. I mean, I was than when I was single. I mean, I was than when I was single. I mean, I felt felt felt utterly alone. utterly alone. utterly alone. Um and I loved Isaiah 43 Um and I loved Isaiah 43 Um and I loved Isaiah 43 uh which says um fear not for I have uh which says um fear not for I have uh which says um fear not for I have redeemed you. I have called you by name. redeemed you. I have called you by name. redeemed you. I have called you by name. You are mine. When you pass through the You are mine. When you pass through the You are mine. When you pass through the waters, I will be with you and through waters, I will be with you and through waters, I will be with you and through the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. the rivers, they will not overwhelm you. When you walk through the fire, you will When you walk through the fire, you will When you walk through the fire, you will not be burned. And I felt like those not be burned. And I felt like those not be burned. And I felt like those things were happening in my life and things were happening in my life and things were happening in my life and recognizing God was with me in all of recognizing God was with me in all of recognizing God was with me in all of those things in a very tangible way. I those things in a very tangible way. I those things in a very tangible way. I felt like felt like felt like that was huge to me. that was huge to me. that was huge to me. And then this scripture that I think is And then this scripture that I think is And then this scripture that I think is often overused, but is a deep truth and often overused, but is a deep truth and often overused, but is a deep truth and that's Romans 8:28. All things work that's Romans 8:28. All things work that's Romans 8:28. All things work together for good for those who love the together for good for those who love the together for good for those who love the Lord and are called according to his Lord and are called according to his Lord and are called according to his purpose.

purpose. purpose. And I thought how could this ever be And I thought how could this ever be And I thought how could this ever be good? You know, I'm sure Wendy and I say good? You know, I'm sure Wendy and I say good? You know, I'm sure Wendy and I say this felt like the worst thing that this felt like the worst thing that this felt like the worst thing that could happen to could happen to could happen to a family, a Christian woman, I mean, it a family, a Christian woman, I mean, it a family, a Christian woman, I mean, it just felt horrible. And it felt against just felt horrible. And it felt against just felt horrible. And it felt against God, whereas Courtney mentioned my son God, whereas Courtney mentioned my son God, whereas Courtney mentioned my son had died years earlier, but that had died years earlier, but that had died years earlier, but that that didn't feel like it had sin all that didn't feel like it had sin all that didn't feel like it had sin all wrapped up in it. So, I felt like will wrapped up in it. So, I felt like will wrapped up in it. So, I felt like will will Does God have a good plan for my will Does God have a good plan for my will Does God have a good plan for my life now? life now? life now? And so, that verse with And so, that verse with And so, that verse with was huge to me recognizing I love the was huge to me recognizing I love the was huge to me recognizing I love the Lord, God has a good plan. Well, I was Lord, God has a good plan. Well, I was Lord, God has a good plan. Well, I was going to say the other one I mentioned I going to say the other one I mentioned I going to say the other one I mentioned I would mention, too, is similar to what would mention, too, is similar to what would mention, too, is similar to what Venita was talking about, but Psalms 126 Venita was talking about, but Psalms 126 Venita was talking about, but Psalms 126 that talks about sowing while you're that talks about sowing while you're that talks about sowing while you're still weeping. Though we are weeping, still weeping. Though we are weeping, still weeping. Though we are weeping, Lord, help us keep sowing the seeds of Lord, help us keep sowing the seeds of Lord, help us keep sowing the seeds of your kingdom. your kingdom. your kingdom. And that was a real hope I needed And that was a real hope I needed And that was a real hope I needed because in in the middle of it you can because in in the middle of it you can because in in the middle of it you can only see the destruction. only see the destruction. only see the destruction. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> And it's hard to envision that there's >> And it's hard to envision that there's >> And it's hard to envision that there's any planting or cultivating or value any planting or cultivating or value any planting or cultivating or value to work for the future because to work for the future because to work for the future because everything you you've you were working everything you you've you were working everything you you've you were working towards seems I remember I felt like I towards seems I remember I felt like I towards seems I remember I felt like I had been had been had been farming my family, cultivating, and now farming my family, cultivating, and now farming my family, cultivating, and now Satan had planted my fields with salt, Satan had planted my fields with salt, Satan had planted my fields with salt, you know, like he had salted my field, you know, like he had salted my field, you know, like he had salted my field, and I needed God's encouragement and and I needed God's encouragement and and I needed God's encouragement and promise no, there's still seed to be promise no, there's still seed to be promise no, there's still seed to be sown, and you don't have to be done

sown, and you don't have to be done sown, and you don't have to be done weeping or mourning the loss in order to weeping or mourning the loss in order to weeping or mourning the loss in order to sow it. And Psalms 126, that was a real sow it. And Psalms 126, that was a real sow it. And Psalms 126, that was a real important place to meditate for me for a important place to meditate for me for a important place to meditate for me for a very long time. That is beautiful, and I very long time. That is beautiful, and I very long time. That is beautiful, and I love how both of you are pointing love how both of you are pointing love how both of you are pointing towards towards towards like the nature and character of God, like the nature and character of God, like the nature and character of God, like his faithfulness, his ability to like his faithfulness, his ability to like his faithfulness, his ability to bring something beautiful and good out bring something beautiful and good out bring something beautiful and good out of something dark and ugly and hard, and of something dark and ugly and hard, and of something dark and ugly and hard, and and how he's the one who never, you and how he's the one who never, you and how he's the one who never, you know, leaves you or forsakes like you're know, leaves you or forsakes like you're know, leaves you or forsakes like you're pointing back to his character. And I pointing back to his character. And I pointing back to his character. And I love Wendy how you started it reminding love Wendy how you started it reminding love Wendy how you started it reminding us like from beginning to end the story us like from beginning to end the story us like from beginning to end the story of scripture, God cares about the of scripture, God cares about the of scripture, God cares about the marginalized. And that is the single marginalized. And that is the single marginalized. And that is the single woman. That is the widow and the so like woman. That is the widow and the so like woman. That is the widow and the so like you said and that I think so often you said and that I think so often you said and that I think so often we can feel like oh no, I've been we can feel like oh no, I've been we can feel like oh no, I've been marginalized outside of, you know, marginalized outside of, you know, marginalized outside of, you know, pushed out and it's like no, no, no, pushed out and it's like no, no, no, pushed out and it's like no, no, no, you're actually like the Lord is so you're actually like the Lord is so you're actually like the Lord is so clear that you're actually the one my clear that you're actually the one my clear that you're actually the one my eyes are on and I am going I am eyes are on and I am going I am eyes are on and I am going I am commanding my people, commanding my commanding my people, commanding my commanding my people, commanding my people to to look out for you and to people to to look out for you and to people to to look out for you and to take care of you because take care of you because take care of you because because my people are meant to express because my people are meant to express because my people are meant to express my love and my care through their own, my love and my care through their own, my love and my care through their own, you know, hands and feet. But we also you know, hands and feet. But we also you know, hands and feet. But we also know that doesn't always happen very know that doesn't always happen very know that doesn't always happen very well. Um and sometimes the church we had well. Um and sometimes the church we had well. Um and sometimes the church we had an episode recently about church hurt an episode recently about church hurt an episode recently about church hurt and because, you know, people in the and because, you know, people in the and because, you know, people in the church I mean this idea, you know,

church I mean this idea, you know, church I mean this idea, you know, here's the church, here's the steeple, here's the church, here's the steeple, here's the church, here's the steeple, you know, doors, here's all the people you know, doors, here's all the people you know, doors, here's all the people because it's the people, right? It's the because it's the people, right? It's the because it's the people, right? It's the people inside the church that can just people inside the church that can just people inside the church that can just be so be so be so not helpful and not expressing the heart not helpful and not expressing the heart not helpful and not expressing the heart of our father, the character of our God. of our father, the character of our God. of our father, the character of our God. And one of the things we're hoping this And one of the things we're hoping this And one of the things we're hoping this podcast will do is equip the church to podcast will do is equip the church to podcast will do is equip the church to be better at this. So what were some be better at this. So what were some be better at this. So what were some things? Let's start with the negative. things? Let's start with the negative. things? Let's start with the negative. What were some things that What were some things that What were some things that people in your life or especially the people in your life or especially the people in your life or especially the church said or did that were church said or did that were church said or did that were unintentionally, unintentionally, unintentionally, uh, uh, uh, Lord willing, Lord willing, Lord willing, unintentionally hurtful or exceedingly unintentionally hurtful or exceedingly unintentionally hurtful or exceedingly unhelpful. They were, um, unhelpful. They were, um, unhelpful. They were, um, I remember I was teaching Bible study I remember I was teaching Bible study I remember I was teaching Bible study and somebody went to my pastor and said, and somebody went to my pastor and said, and somebody went to my pastor and said, uh, I don't think she should be uh, I don't think she should be uh, I don't think she should be qualified to teach anymore. qualified to teach anymore. qualified to teach anymore. >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> [sighs] >> And I Yeah, that was pretty devastating >> And I Yeah, that was pretty devastating >> And I Yeah, that was pretty devastating when you're already feeling so bad and when you're already feeling so bad and when you're already feeling so bad and so that was probably more intentional so that was probably more intentional so that was probably more intentional but she just felt like doctrinally like but she just felt like doctrinally like but she just felt like doctrinally like was that a good thing to have somebody was that a good thing to have somebody was that a good thing to have somebody who was going through that in front of who was going through that in front of who was going through that in front of you know, everybody. So you know, everybody. So you know, everybody. So that was really hard and hurtful and that was really hard and hurtful and that was really hard and hurtful and then I would say what people didn't say then I would say what people didn't say then I would say what people didn't say was hurtful. I don't know about you was hurtful. I don't know about you was hurtful. I don't know about you Wendy but like I stopped being invited Wendy but like I stopped being invited Wendy but like I stopped being invited to things like the world is couples and to things like the world is couples and to things like the world is couples and couples that I spent time with were all couples that I spent time with were all couples that I spent time with were all of a sudden doing things and I would of a sudden doing things and I would of a sudden doing things and I would find out and it's like well, you know, find out and it's like well, you know, find out and it's like well, you know, you would feel awkward and you would feel awkward and you would feel awkward and so I felt like my social so I felt like my social so I felt like my social community in church like people were

community in church like people were community in church like people were great in church but then outside of great in church but then outside of great in church but then outside of church things really changed. church things really changed. church things really changed. >> Mhm. That's a good word to >> Mhm. That's a good word to >> Mhm. That's a good word to For me one of the things that really For me one of the things that really For me one of the things that really um was hard for me was getting the sense um was hard for me was getting the sense um was hard for me was getting the sense from other people that they from other people that they from other people that they they they couldn't comprehend that maybe they they couldn't comprehend that maybe they they couldn't comprehend that maybe I had not brought this on myself. And so I had not brought this on myself. And so I had not brought this on myself. And so there was like a consistent barrage of there was like a consistent barrage of there was like a consistent barrage of things to try to do to change and um it things to try to do to change and um it things to try to do to change and um it disrespected the fact that I had worked disrespected the fact that I had worked disrespected the fact that I had worked very hard to try to understand this and very hard to try to understand this and very hard to try to understand this and you know, I it was so well meaning and you know, I it was so well meaning and you know, I it was so well meaning and so I can't fault friends who wanted to so I can't fault friends who wanted to so I can't fault friends who wanted to help me stop this train that was coming help me stop this train that was coming help me stop this train that was coming toward my family but at some point toward my family but at some point toward my family but at some point you're just so exhausted and demoralized you're just so exhausted and demoralized you're just so exhausted and demoralized from watching the first 25 things you from watching the first 25 things you from watching the first 25 things you tried tried tried um and the first you know, 10 big um and the first you know, 10 big um and the first you know, 10 big initiatives based on wise godly counsel initiatives based on wise godly counsel initiatives based on wise godly counsel and you just have not been able to stop and you just have not been able to stop and you just have not been able to stop this train heading toward your your this train heading toward your your this train heading toward your your vehicle um that's how I always felt like vehicle um that's how I always felt like vehicle um that's how I always felt like we were in a minivan stuck on the tracks we were in a minivan stuck on the tracks we were in a minivan stuck on the tracks and I could watch this train coming and I could watch this train coming and I could watch this train coming toward our family but nothing I tried toward our family but nothing I tried toward our family but nothing I tried could get us unstuck could get us unstuck could get us unstuck from this track. And I really needed from this track. And I really needed from this track. And I really needed people to listen and process with me.

people to listen and process with me. people to listen and process with me. Um but so often folks were threatened by Um but so often folks were threatened by Um but so often folks were threatened by like a fear, well, I don't want this like a fear, well, I don't want this like a fear, well, I don't want this happening to me, so surely you must have happening to me, so surely you must have happening to me, so surely you must have done something. done something. done something. Like it's contagious. That's right. Like it's contagious. That's right. Like it's contagious. That's right. Um and so that that was really really Um and so that that was really really Um and so that that was really really hard for me, but I did have some hard for me, but I did have some hard for me, but I did have some friends. And what I I learned to do was friends. And what I I learned to do was friends. And what I I learned to do was find others who have suffered, and it find others who have suffered, and it find others who have suffered, and it doesn't have to be the ones that have doesn't have to be the ones that have doesn't have to be the ones that have suffered the same way because they suffered the same way because they suffered the same way because they generally, through their own learned generally, through their own learned generally, through their own learned experience, through their own suffering, experience, through their own suffering, experience, through their own suffering, have a better ability just to kind of have a better ability just to kind of have a better ability just to kind of quietly allow you to process quietly allow you to process quietly allow you to process and be a sounding board to you rather and be a sounding board to you rather and be a sounding board to you rather than firing at you with advice or things than firing at you with advice or things than firing at you with advice or things to try. So that's kind of the take-home to try. So that's kind of the take-home to try. So that's kind of the take-home is just be a sounding board and and and is just be a sounding board and and and is just be a sounding board and and and just start with, I'm just so sorry, how just start with, I'm just so sorry, how just start with, I'm just so sorry, how can I help, right? Yeah. can I help, right? Yeah. can I help, right? Yeah. >> Not let me tell tell you what I know >> Not let me tell tell you what I know >> Not let me tell tell you what I know because we actually don't know. The because we actually don't know. The because we actually don't know. The other thing I would say, and I learned other thing I would say, and I learned other thing I would say, and I learned this from my kids, is this from my kids, is this from my kids, is my kids felt pretty hurt by the church my kids felt pretty hurt by the church my kids felt pretty hurt by the church community because everybody kept telling community because everybody kept telling community because everybody kept telling them to listen to me. And they because them to listen to me. And they because them to listen to me. And they because my kids were going wild, so there was a my kids were going wild, so there was a my kids were going wild, so there was a reason for it, but it felt like nobody reason for it, but it felt like nobody reason for it, but it felt like nobody was listening to them, and that ended up was listening to them, and that ended up was listening to them, and that ended up being really hard for me because they being really hard for me because they being really hard for me because they struggled with church then. And you want struggled with church then. And you want struggled with church then. And you want that to be a safe place, but they walk that to be a safe place, but they walk that to be a safe place, but they walk in and people were like, are you doing in and people were like, are you doing in and people were like, are you doing for your mom and this is hard for her.

for your mom and this is hard for her. for your mom and this is hard for her. And it it was a battle even though And it it was a battle even though And it it was a battle even though nobody was asking them. So my kind of nobody was asking them. So my kind of nobody was asking them. So my kind of thing to say to people is if you see thing to say to people is if you see thing to say to people is if you see somebody with children in the church, somebody with children in the church, somebody with children in the church, like see them as people because what you like see them as people because what you like see them as people because what you say to them often would come back to me say to them often would come back to me say to them often would come back to me and would wound me even though the and would wound me even though the and would wound me even though the people in the church were trying to help people in the church were trying to help people in the church were trying to help me. me. me. And there are people that are going And there are people that are going And there are people that are going through their own immense and intense through their own immense and intense through their own immense and intense grief. And and how can we do the same grief. And and how can we do the same grief. And and how can we do the same thing for them that we're just saying, thing for them that we're just saying, thing for them that we're just saying, you know, we would all want and that is you know, we would all want and that is you know, we would all want and that is listen and just say I'm sorry. How can I listen and just say I'm sorry. How can I listen and just say I'm sorry. How can I help? And see them and listen and yeah, help? And see them and listen and yeah, help? And see them and listen and yeah, that's that's really good. Um what that's that's really good. Um what that's that's really good. Um what because both of you, you know, Venita because both of you, you know, Venita because both of you, you know, Venita two daughters and Wendy two sons, um two daughters and Wendy two sons, um two daughters and Wendy two sons, um what were your prayers for your children what were your prayers for your children what were your prayers for your children in the in the wake of or in the midst of in the in the wake of or in the midst of in the in the wake of or in the midst of your divorce? You know, my prayer your divorce? You know, my prayer your divorce? You know, my prayer has always been for them that God would has always been for them that God would has always been for them that God would help them love him, help them love him, help them love him, love his word, and love his people. Mhm.

love his word, and love his people. Mhm. love his word, and love his people. Mhm. And one of the things I got such good And one of the things I got such good And one of the things I got such good advice advice advice early on with my boys and it was don't early on with my boys and it was don't early on with my boys and it was don't try to distract them from the pain, but try to distract them from the pain, but try to distract them from the pain, but help them and me. We had to walk through help them and me. We had to walk through help them and me. We had to walk through it. And their pain could feel it. And their pain could feel it. And their pain could feel threatening to me. Like I feel bad, you threatening to me. Like I feel bad, you threatening to me. Like I feel bad, you know, that because of the life choices know, that because of the life choices know, that because of the life choices I've made I guess, you know, now my I've made I guess, you know, now my I've made I guess, you know, now my children are hurting and I need to children are hurting and I need to children are hurting and I need to convince them it's not as bad. No, we'll convince them it's not as bad. No, we'll convince them it's not as bad. No, we'll be good. But the advice was no, let them be good. But the advice was no, let them be good. But the advice was no, let them walk through it and cry with them and walk through it and cry with them and walk through it and cry with them and pray with them and not be threatened by pray with them and not be threatened by pray with them and not be threatened by it. And I think that um was a really, it. And I think that um was a really, it. And I think that um was a really, really important piece of advice for me. really important piece of advice for me. really important piece of advice for me. And I feel like they have processed it And I feel like they have processed it And I feel like they have processed it and are pretty healthy emotionally and are pretty healthy emotionally and are pretty healthy emotionally despite it. And um I think I think God despite it. And um I think I think God despite it. And um I think I think God for that. But like I said, my prayer has for that. But like I said, my prayer has for that. But like I said, my prayer has just been that they would still love just been that they would still love just been that they would still love God, that he would draw them to himself, God, that he would draw them to himself, God, that he would draw them to himself, that they would love his people, and that they would love his people, and that they would love his people, and that they would love his word, and and that they would love his word, and and that they would love his word, and and God's been kind with them.

God's been kind with them. God's been kind with them. Man, that's just beautiful advice. I Man, that's just beautiful advice. I Man, that's just beautiful advice. I mean, not only beautiful things to pray mean, not only beautiful things to pray mean, not only beautiful things to pray for all of our children, right? I mean, for all of our children, right? I mean, for all of our children, right? I mean, those are no different than what I would those are no different than what I would those are no different than what I would pray for my children. It's just, you pray for my children. It's just, you pray for my children. It's just, you know, in praying that yours have walked know, in praying that yours have walked know, in praying that yours have walked through some things that would make it through some things that would make it through some things that would make it even harder. Um even harder. Um even harder. Um a father, you know, God as father and a father, you know, God as father and a father, you know, God as father and and his people having experienced and his people having experienced and his people having experienced different things, but I love that let different things, but I love that let different things, but I love that let them walk through it because they are them walk through it because they are them walk through it because they are walking through it and all of that. But walking through it and all of that. But walking through it and all of that. But I I can see how my own proclivity would I I can see how my own proclivity would I I can see how my own proclivity would be to be to be to you know, try to minimize their pain and you know, try to minimize their pain and you know, try to minimize their pain and instead of allowing it and and walk in instead of allowing it and and walk in instead of allowing it and and walk in with them in it. That's That's really with them in it. That's That's really with them in it. That's That's really good advice. Benita, what about you with good advice. Benita, what about you with good advice. Benita, what about you with the girls? Um very similar. I mean, my the girls? Um very similar. I mean, my the girls? Um very similar. I mean, my prayer was that they would run to God prayer was that they would run to God prayer was that they would run to God and that they would find him sufficient. and that they would find him sufficient. and that they would find him sufficient. Like it, you know, cuz it felt so broken Like it, you know, cuz it felt so broken Like it, you know, cuz it felt so broken for them with their dad who was involved for them with their dad who was involved for them with their dad who was involved in the church. Like I just prayed that in the church. Like I just prayed that in the church. Like I just prayed that they wouldn't be bitter they wouldn't be bitter they wouldn't be bitter against the church, against God and against the church, against God and against the church, against God and against him, you know, because against him, you know, because against him, you know, because [clears throat] I know bitterness kills [clears throat] I know bitterness kills [clears throat] I know bitterness kills us, you know, it just eats us from the us, you know, it just eats us from the us, you know, it just eats us from the inside out and inside out and inside out and so I I really prayed a lot about that.

so I I really prayed a lot about that. so I I really prayed a lot about that. And then for my daughters, um given our And then for my daughters, um given our And then for my daughters, um given our situation, I prayed a lot that they situation, I prayed a lot that they situation, I prayed a lot that they would be able to trust men because for a would be able to trust men because for a would be able to trust men because for a long time when they were kids, they were long time when they were kids, they were long time when they were kids, they were like, "I will never trust a guy." like, "I will never trust a guy." like, "I will never trust a guy." And And And because they had so trusted their dad because they had so trusted their dad because they had so trusted their dad and so it felt like so much like we were and so it felt like so much like we were and so it felt like so much like we were shocked. Can we Can we trust? And and shocked. Can we Can we trust? And and shocked. Can we Can we trust? And and God, you know, they're both married and God, you know, they're both married and God, you know, they're both married and both have married wonderful men and have both have married wonderful men and have both have married wonderful men and have but we we had to talk through a lot of but we we had to talk through a lot of but we we had to talk through a lot of that. What does it look like to trust? that. What does it look like to trust? that. What does it look like to trust? And it's really trusting God. I mean, And it's really trusting God. I mean, And it's really trusting God. I mean, that's what we ended up with is like that's what we ended up with is like that's what we ended up with is like you can't necessarily trust people you can't necessarily trust people you can't necessarily trust people anyway. You have to put your trust in anyway. You have to put your trust in anyway. You have to put your trust in God. So, but that was a big prayer for God. So, but that was a big prayer for God. So, but that was a big prayer for me with daughters. me with daughters. me with daughters. That's Yeah, those are um just beautiful That's Yeah, those are um just beautiful That's Yeah, those are um just beautiful things to pray. Yes, really for all of things to pray. Yes, really for all of things to pray. Yes, really for all of our children, but just even our children, but just even our children, but just even allowing the honesty of saying even as I allowing the honesty of saying even as I allowing the honesty of saying even as I pray this, I recognize pray this, I recognize pray this, I recognize that this is that this is that this is exponentially more difficult for you exponentially more difficult for you exponentially more difficult for you because of the way the Lord is writing because of the way the Lord is writing because of the way the Lord is writing really all of our our stories. Um we've really all of our our stories. Um we've really all of our our stories. Um we've kind of touched on this this idea of kind of touched on this this idea of kind of touched on this this idea of kind of what kind of what kind of what to say something, don't say something, to say something, don't say something, to say something, don't say something, you know, but I think it I don't think you know, but I think it I don't think you know, but I think it I don't think it can be said too many times because it can be said too many times because it can be said too many times because silence, uh one of you said, is just as silence, uh one of you said, is just as silence, uh one of you said, is just as painful sometimes as maybe more painful painful sometimes as maybe more painful painful sometimes as maybe more painful than saying the wrong thing. So this than saying the wrong thing. So this than saying the wrong thing. So this idea of ignoring it. And so just to make idea of ignoring it. And so just to make idea of ignoring it. And so just to make it really obvious and explicit, if you it really obvious and explicit, if you it really obvious and explicit, if you know someone going through a divorce and

know someone going through a divorce and know someone going through a divorce and you haven't talked about it, you know, you haven't talked about it, you know, you haven't talked about it, you know, do you it's it's like if somebody has do you it's it's like if somebody has do you it's it's like if somebody has just gone through the loss of someone just gone through the loss of someone just gone through the loss of someone someone through death. I mean, you don't someone through death. I mean, you don't someone through death. I mean, you don't avoid it. You go straight to them, avoid it. You go straight to them, avoid it. You go straight to them, right? And you say, "I'm so sorry." So right? And you say, "I'm so sorry." So right? And you say, "I'm so sorry." So So why is it kinder to to mention this So why is it kinder to to mention this So why is it kinder to to mention this thing in their life? And when is it okay thing in their life? And when is it okay thing in their life? And when is it okay to to to kind of avoid it and say, "You know, kind of avoid it and say, "You know, kind of avoid it and say, "You know, this isn't the time to talk about it." this isn't the time to talk about it." this isn't the time to talk about it." Like is there is it's a wisdom issue. Like is there is it's a wisdom issue. Like is there is it's a wisdom issue. And so what have you gleaned through And so what have you gleaned through And so what have you gleaned through your lived experiences that you would be your lived experiences that you would be your lived experiences that you would be able to offer to us? able to offer to us? able to offer to us? Yeah, one thing I've learned to do and Yeah, one thing I've learned to do and Yeah, one thing I've learned to do and people did it with me is, you know, just people did it with me is, you know, just people did it with me is, you know, just say, "Hey, I know what's going on say, "Hey, I know what's going on say, "Hey, I know what's going on and if you want to talk about it, I'm and if you want to talk about it, I'm and if you want to talk about it, I'm here and I'll try not to I tell here and I'll try not to I tell here and I'll try not to I tell everybody now I'll try not to offer everybody now I'll try not to offer everybody now I'll try not to offer advice. I'll try just to listen, advice. I'll try just to listen, advice. I'll try just to listen, honestly. But also if you just want to honestly. But also if you just want to honestly. But also if you just want to go ahead and have fun and let's go ahead and have fun and let's go ahead and have fun and let's distract, then I'm good for that too. distract, then I'm good for that too. distract, then I'm good for that too. So, you know, I'm here and when you're So, you know, I'm here and when you're So, you know, I'm here and when you're ready to talk or need a place, just know ready to talk or need a place, just know ready to talk or need a place, just know I I I'm I'm I'm here. But we don't have I I I'm I'm I'm here. But we don't have I I I'm I'm I'm here. But we don't have to talk about it." That's wisdom right to talk about it." That's wisdom right to talk about it." That's wisdom right there. We can do both. I'm here. I see there. We can do both. I'm here. I see there. We can do both. I'm here. I see you. Like that's kind of that just I see you. Like that's kind of that just I see you. Like that's kind of that just I see you. And and I know sometimes you're you. And and I know sometimes you're you. And and I know sometimes you're going to need this and sometimes you're going to need this and sometimes you're going to need this and sometimes you're going to need this. And so I'm here for going to need this. And so I'm here for going to need this. And so I'm here for both of them. Yeah. Yep. That's great both of them. Yeah. Yep. That's great both of them. Yeah. Yep. That's great advice. I would say um advice. I would say um advice. I would say um >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> [clears throat] >> if somebody like if it's somebody you >> if somebody like if it's somebody you >> if somebody like if it's somebody you kind of know and that you've talked it kind of know and that you've talked it kind of know and that you've talked it through like my good friends, I love the through like my good friends, I love the through like my good friends, I love the question how's today?

question how's today? question how's today? Not how are you doing? How are you doing Not how are you doing? How are you doing Not how are you doing? How are you doing is the most difficult question. Like are is the most difficult question. Like are is the most difficult question. Like are we talking like there's so many areas of we talking like there's so many areas of we talking like there's so many areas of how are you doing? So how's today going? how are you doing? So how's today going? how are you doing? So how's today going? Then people can move that whatever way Then people can move that whatever way Then people can move that whatever way they want to. they want to. they want to. And so I I like that question cuz it's And so I I like that question cuz it's And so I I like that question cuz it's not intrusive. And it's very specific not intrusive. And it's very specific not intrusive. And it's very specific and it's very focused and it also it it and it's very focused and it also it it and it's very focused and it also it it is implicitly recognizing that there are is implicitly recognizing that there are is implicitly recognizing that there are days you're going to say I am feeling so days you're going to say I am feeling so days you're going to say I am feeling so held by the Lord. I'm feeling so held by the Lord. I'm feeling so held by the Lord. I'm feeling so comforted and strengthened by him and comforted and strengthened by him and comforted and strengthened by him and there are other days that you're going there are other days that you're going there are other days that you're going to feel, you know, that everything's to feel, you know, that everything's to feel, you know, that everything's falling apart and I am all alone and falling apart and I am all alone and falling apart and I am all alone and there is no you know, all the things of there is no you know, all the things of there is no you know, all the things of the way the enemy comes in and lies to the way the enemy comes in and lies to the way the enemy comes in and lies to us. And so that how's today us. And so that how's today us. And so that how's today is so specific. I think we could take is so specific. I think we could take is so specific. I think we could take that and use that in a lot of different that and use that in a lot of different that and use that in a lot of different situations. We're going to take a little situations. We're going to take a little situations. We're going to take a little break really quickly. Hear a word from break really quickly. Hear a word from break really quickly. Hear a word from our sponsor and then we're going to come our sponsor and then we're going to come our sponsor and then we're going to come back and we're going to talk more can back and we're going to talk more can back and we're going to talk more can really support someone walking through really support someone walking through really support someone walking through unwanted divorce. So we'll be right unwanted divorce. So we'll be right unwanted divorce. So we'll be right back.

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Cozy Earth here on the deep dish. Cozy Earth here on the deep dish. [music] [music] [music] Because we know that moms make home Because we know that moms make home Because we know that moms make home special. Well, welcome back um for this deep Well, welcome back um for this deep conversation that we're having about conversation that we're having about conversation that we're having about unwanted divorce and and offering help unwanted divorce and and offering help unwanted divorce and and offering help and hope and encouragement not only for and hope and encouragement not only for and hope and encouragement not only for those walking through it, but also for those walking through it, but also for those walking through it, but also for those of us that want to walk well with those of us that want to walk well with those of us that want to walk well with friends and family through friends and family through friends and family through um unwanted divorce. So, I know a lot of um unwanted divorce. So, I know a lot of um unwanted divorce. So, I know a lot of times, and I've heard other say this, times, and I've heard other say this, times, and I've heard other say this, too, that it can be really hard to go to too, that it can be really hard to go to too, that it can be really hard to go to church during a divorce or when you're church during a divorce or when you're church during a divorce or when you're newly divorced. And so, why why is that? newly divorced. And so, why why is that? newly divorced. And so, why why is that? Why is that particularly difficult? I Why is that particularly difficult? I Why is that particularly difficult? I noticed for our family noticed for our family noticed for our family that church that church that church for many weeks and most of the year was for many weeks and most of the year was for many weeks and most of the year was the one consistent thing that the four the one consistent thing that the four the one consistent thing that the four of us did every week. of us did every week. of us did every week. So, Andy would go to work, I would take So, Andy would go to work, I would take So, Andy would go to work, I would take the boys to school. We might, the four the boys to school. We might, the four the boys to school. We might, the four of us, go out together to eat somewhere.

of us, go out together to eat somewhere. of us, go out together to eat somewhere. We might go to the park every other week We might go to the park every other week We might go to the park every other week or something, but every week the four of or something, but every week the four of or something, but every week the four of us would get in the car together and us would get in the car together and us would get in the car together and drive to church drive to church drive to church and get [snorts] lunch afterwards. and get [snorts] lunch afterwards. and get [snorts] lunch afterwards. And so, that we just really felt his And so, that we just really felt his And so, that we just really felt his loss. Um I really felt his loss just loss. Um I really felt his loss just loss. Um I really felt his loss just going to church, sitting in church, all going to church, sitting in church, all going to church, sitting in church, all the other families, you know, you would the other families, you know, you would the other families, you know, you would see the father sitting with the their see the father sitting with the their see the father sitting with the their wives and their children and ours was wives and their children and ours was wives and their children and ours was obviously absent. My boys would notice obviously absent. My boys would notice obviously absent. My boys would notice it. We went to family camp. Um and it it. We went to family camp. Um and it it. We went to family camp. Um and it just broke my heart because I wanted to just broke my heart because I wanted to just broke my heart because I wanted to continue, you know, in the rhythm of continue, you know, in the rhythm of continue, you know, in the rhythm of church. church. church. But my boys noticed that all the other But my boys noticed that all the other But my boys noticed that all the other families had a dad and my youngest just families had a dad and my youngest just families had a dad and my youngest just cried to me about that at family camp cried to me about that at family camp cried to me about that at family camp and it ended up and it ended up and it ended up being of an encouragement to him and being of an encouragement to him and being of an encouragement to him and more of a discouragement. So, you know, more of a discouragement. So, you know, more of a discouragement. So, you know, church can initially be a really painful church can initially be a really painful church can initially be a really painful place. And yet we need church. And so place. And yet we need church. And so place. And yet we need church. And so it's important to persevere through it.

it's important to persevere through it. it's important to persevere through it. And um eventually for me, I ended up in And um eventually for me, I ended up in And um eventually for me, I ended up in um a multicultural church plant and um a multicultural church plant and um a multicultural church plant and ended up more being the norm. Like we ended up more being the norm. Like we ended up more being the norm. Like we have actually more single moms in our have actually more single moms in our have actually more single moms in our church than we have um intact families, church than we have um intact families, church than we have um intact families, you know, which you know, which you know, which it has a different set of um struggles. it has a different set of um struggles. it has a different set of um struggles. But But But that ended up being a place that was that ended up being a place that was that ended up being a place that was helpful to me. And in general, what I do helpful to me. And in general, what I do helpful to me. And in general, what I do feel like by persevering through at feel like by persevering through at feel like by persevering through at church, I started noticing other broken church, I started noticing other broken church, I started noticing other broken families, other broken people that they families, other broken people that they families, other broken people that they were on my periphery before. I didn't were on my periphery before. I didn't were on my periphery before. I didn't notice them because they were notice them because they were notice them because they were marginalized, right? And then once you marginalized, right? And then once you marginalized, right? And then once you start feeling marginalized, you your start feeling marginalized, you your start feeling marginalized, you your eyes open to other marginalized people eyes open to other marginalized people eyes open to other marginalized people and I developed new friendships with and I developed new friendships with and I developed new friendships with people that I didn't even necessarily people that I didn't even necessarily people that I didn't even necessarily think of developing a friendship with think of developing a friendship with think of developing a friendship with before. Maybe just cuz I was kind of before. Maybe just cuz I was kind of before. Maybe just cuz I was kind of oblivious. And that's one of the oblivious. And that's one of the oblivious. And that's one of the benefits of suffering is that it opens benefits of suffering is that it opens benefits of suffering is that it opens our eyes to other sufferers. And our eyes to other sufferers. And our eyes to other sufferers. And sometimes that can be really, really sometimes that can be really, really sometimes that can be really, really sweet. Mhm. I would say similarly, I sweet. Mhm. I would say similarly, I sweet. Mhm. I would say similarly, I felt so conspicuous in church because felt so conspicuous in church because felt so conspicuous in church because our church has mostly intact families our church has mostly intact families our church has mostly intact families and my um and my um and my um there's church discipline. Everybody in there's church discipline. Everybody in there's church discipline. Everybody in the church sort of was somewhat aware the church sort of was somewhat aware the church sort of was somewhat aware what happened and so I felt like all what happened and so I felt like all what happened and so I felt like all eyes were on me.

eyes were on me. eyes were on me. And I I really struggled with just And I I really struggled with just And I I really struggled with just feeling alone and feeling alone and feeling alone and also feeling a little bit of judgement also feeling a little bit of judgement also feeling a little bit of judgement and unspoken things and unspoken things and unspoken things that just just little comments that just just little comments that just just little comments made church a lot harder for me at first made church a lot harder for me at first made church a lot harder for me at first even though I loved my church and the even though I loved my church and the even though I loved my church and the church was really supportive walking in church was really supportive walking in church was really supportive walking in and sitting by myself like in the same and sitting by myself like in the same and sitting by myself like in the same spot. So we had to we decided to sit spot. So we had to we decided to sit spot. So we had to we decided to sit somewhere else little bit different so somewhere else little bit different so somewhere else little bit different so it didn't feel like you know now we're it didn't feel like you know now we're it didn't feel like you know now we're three seats instead of four. three seats instead of four. three seats instead of four. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, that's an interesting Well, that's an interesting Well, that's an interesting paradox to feel conspicuous and alone. paradox to feel conspicuous and alone. paradox to feel conspicuous and alone. And yet you can like I guess you guys And yet you can like I guess you guys And yet you can like I guess you guys were saying that I could feel the weight were saying that I could feel the weight were saying that I could feel the weight of that of sitting there and feeling of that of sitting there and feeling of that of sitting there and feeling like that only does everybody see this like that only does everybody see this like that only does everybody see this but nobody's moving towards me and so but nobody's moving towards me and so but nobody's moving towards me and so yeah, I mean it just I feel the I feel yeah, I mean it just I feel the I feel yeah, I mean it just I feel the I feel the weight of that and I I want to I'm the weight of that and I I want to I'm the weight of that and I I want to I'm looking I want to look around my looking I want to look around my looking I want to look around my congregation more than I am maybe congregation more than I am maybe congregation more than I am maybe currently. So for the woman who right currently. So for the woman who right currently. So for the woman who right now is just like yeah, I don't I don't now is just like yeah, I don't I don't now is just like yeah, I don't I don't want to feel conspicuous and alone. I want to feel conspicuous and alone. I want to feel conspicuous and alone. I don't want to feel judged. I don't want don't want to feel judged. I don't want don't want to feel judged. I don't want don't want my children to feel that. Um don't want my children to feel that. Um don't want my children to feel that. Um what would you say to her to help her what would you say to her to help her what would you say to her to help her press into it because when do you press into it because when do you press into it because when do you started off by saying started off by saying started off by saying we really need the church. It might be we really need the church. It might be we really need the church. It might be the hardest place to go but we really the hardest place to go but we really the hardest place to go but we really need it. So how would you encourage her

need it. So how would you encourage her need it. So how would you encourage her in that? Yeah, I think that a lot of it in that? Yeah, I think that a lot of it in that? Yeah, I think that a lot of it is just getting up and continuing on. is just getting up and continuing on. is just getting up and continuing on. It's you know just the word It's you know just the word It's you know just the word perseverance. perseverance. perseverance. But also praying as you go in. Like I But also praying as you go in. Like I But also praying as you go in. Like I really can't say strongly enough what really can't say strongly enough what really can't say strongly enough what how important it was for me as time went how important it was for me as time went how important it was for me as time went on that I started noticing the on that I started noticing the on that I started noticing the marginalized in my community, the marginalized in my community, the marginalized in my community, the marginalized in my church, and that my marginalized in my church, and that my marginalized in my church, and that my presence in the church became more presence in the church became more presence in the church became more welcoming to others welcoming to others welcoming to others that were broken. You know, the church that were broken. You know, the church that were broken. You know, the church is a hospital for the sick, right? It's is a hospital for the sick, right? It's is a hospital for the sick, right? It's supposed to be, right? supposed to be, right? supposed to be, right? >> is It's supposed to be, right? And so, >> is It's supposed to be, right? And so, >> is It's supposed to be, right? And so, it's a barrier to others who are it's a barrier to others who are it's a barrier to others who are marginalized or hurting or wounded or marginalized or hurting or wounded or marginalized or hurting or wounded or going through some kind of deep-seated going through some kind of deep-seated going through some kind of deep-seated pain to come into a church that seems pain to come into a church that seems pain to come into a church that seems only the happy, you know, shiny people. only the happy, you know, shiny people. only the happy, you know, shiny people. Um and so, really, it took a long time Um and so, really, it took a long time Um and so, really, it took a long time for me to more I had to mourn the loss for me to more I had to mourn the loss for me to more I had to mourn the loss of that high shiny life I had longed for of that high shiny life I had longed for of that high shiny life I had longed for before I could really embrace the value before I could really embrace the value before I could really embrace the value that my presence brought to our church that my presence brought to our church that my presence brought to our church community community community by making it more welcoming for those by making it more welcoming for those by making it more welcoming for those who really needed it. And now, I I I own who really needed it. And now, I I I own who really needed it. And now, I I I own that, and I I'm thankful for it. Um but that, and I I'm thankful for it. Um but that, and I I'm thankful for it. Um but persevering through that transition in persevering through that transition in persevering through that transition in your own head as you're mourning the your own head as you're mourning the your own head as you're mourning the loss of one life and trying to figure loss of one life and trying to figure loss of one life and trying to figure out um the new, but that's part of that

out um the new, but that's part of that out um the new, but that's part of that precious bag of seed that's at our feet precious bag of seed that's at our feet precious bag of seed that's at our feet um as as we're even still mourning the um as as we're even still mourning the um as as we're even still mourning the loss of the first, but there is loss of the first, but there is loss of the first, but there is opportunity in our churches for us to opportunity in our churches for us to opportunity in our churches for us to minister to others with the grace we minister to others with the grace we minister to others with the grace we have received. Mhm. Comfort with the have received. Mhm. Comfort with the have received. Mhm. Comfort with the comfort we've received. Yeah, Venita. comfort we've received. Yeah, Venita. comfort we've received. Yeah, Venita. >> Right. Um I would say >> Right. Um I would say >> Right. Um I would say one, we need like corporate worship, one, we need like corporate worship, one, we need like corporate worship, like singing together, like I remember like singing together, like I remember like singing together, like I remember just tears running down my face, but just tears running down my face, but just tears running down my face, but looking around and we are all singing looking around and we are all singing looking around and we are all singing and praising God together, and I needed and praising God together, and I needed and praising God together, and I needed the word. the word. the word. And [snorts] I needed to sit and be And [snorts] I needed to sit and be And [snorts] I needed to sit and be taught. So, that is one reason you want taught. So, that is one reason you want taught. So, that is one reason you want to go to church because if you watch it to go to church because if you watch it to go to church because if you watch it on your little screen, you don't you on your little screen, you don't you on your little screen, you don't you don't get that. don't get that. don't get that. Um, the other things I would say is if Um, the other things I would say is if Um, the other things I would say is if you're going to the same church that you you're going to the same church that you you're going to the same church that you were part of, ask somebody to save you a were part of, ask somebody to save you a were part of, ask somebody to save you a seat. That makes it so much easier to seat. That makes it so much easier to seat. That makes it so much easier to say, "We're sitting with people, so we say, "We're sitting with people, so we say, "We're sitting with people, so we don't feel so conspicuous." So, if don't feel so conspicuous." So, if don't feel so conspicuous." So, if that's a barrier, ask somebody to save that's a barrier, ask somebody to save that's a barrier, ask somebody to save you a seat. If you went to you a seat. If you went to you a seat. If you went to lunch with your family, ask other lunch with your family, ask other lunch with your family, ask other families to go to lunch with you. So, families to go to lunch with you. So, families to go to lunch with you. So, the rhythm feels like, "Okay, we get to the rhythm feels like, "Okay, we get to the rhythm feels like, "Okay, we get to do something rather than get in our car do something rather than get in our car do something rather than get in our car and drive home."

and drive home." and drive home." And then I would say if you are going to And then I would say if you are going to And then I would say if you are going to a new church because sometimes people, a new church because sometimes people, a new church because sometimes people, for whatever happens, they really need for whatever happens, they really need for whatever happens, they really need to find a new body to worship in. I to find a new body to worship in. I to find a new body to worship in. I would say one would say one would say one Think about what you're going to say Think about what you're going to say Think about what you're going to say when you walk in. Like, people may when you walk in. Like, people may when you walk in. Like, people may wonder like you're walking in with your wonder like you're walking in with your wonder like you're walking in with your children and you might want to have like children and you might want to have like children and you might want to have like a phrase like, "Hey, I'm going through a phrase like, "Hey, I'm going through a phrase like, "Hey, I'm going through divorce and it's been it's been hard. divorce and it's been it's been hard. divorce and it's been it's been hard. God is carrying me." You don't have to God is carrying me." You don't have to God is carrying me." You don't have to give them all the background, give them all the background, give them all the background, but it might be helpful to just have it but it might be helpful to just have it but it might be helpful to just have it memorized so you know what you're going memorized so you know what you're going memorized so you know what you're going to say. to say. to say. And so, I think those things make it a And so, I think those things make it a And so, I think those things make it a little easier because sometimes we feel little easier because sometimes we feel little easier because sometimes we feel deer in the headlights like, uh, deer in the headlights like, uh, deer in the headlights like, uh, what do I say? What do I do? So, I think what do I say? What do I do? So, I think what do I say? What do I do? So, I think spending the time to think about that a spending the time to think about that a spending the time to think about that a little bit little bit little bit and um, can make it easier if you're and um, can make it easier if you're and um, can make it easier if you're struggling to get up and walk out the struggling to get up and walk out the struggling to get up and walk out the door. Well, even as you're talking Anita door. Well, even as you're talking Anita door. Well, even as you're talking Anita and you're saying like these are the and you're saying like these are the and you're saying like these are the things I had to do, these are the things things I had to do, these are the things things I had to do, these are the things I had to think through, you're also I had to think through, you're also I had to think through, you're also instructing the all of us as church instructing the all of us as church instructing the all of us as church members members members be the one to invite somebody to sit be the one to invite somebody to sit be the one to invite somebody to sit next to you. Be the one to initiate the next to you. Be the one to initiate the next to you. Be the one to initiate the lunch. I mean, it's just it's very lunch. I mean, it's just it's very lunch. I mean, it's just it's very instructive and um, it would be instructive and um, it would be instructive and um, it would be wonderful if the church could come wonderful if the church could come wonderful if the church could come alongside in a way that actually alongside in a way that actually alongside in a way that actually alleviates the burden of you having to alleviates the burden of you having to alleviates the burden of you having to initiate all of that. But, but those are initiate all of that. But, but those are initiate all of that. But, but those are just like really practical tangible just like really practical tangible just like really practical tangible things. Um things. Um things. Um we've been talking about the church um we've been talking about the church um we've been talking about the church um in relationship to women going through

in relationship to women going through in relationship to women going through unwanted divorce and we've really been unwanted divorce and we've really been unwanted divorce and we've really been honing in on the people in the church, honing in on the people in the church, honing in on the people in the church, the people in the pews. But we also know the people in the pews. But we also know the people in the pews. But we also know that when we talk about the church, we that when we talk about the church, we that when we talk about the church, we also can be talking about the pastors also can be talking about the pastors also can be talking about the pastors and the elders and the ministry leaders, and the elders and the ministry leaders, and the elders and the ministry leaders, um which can be a completely different um which can be a completely different um which can be a completely different dynamic. And this is a woman's podcast. dynamic. And this is a woman's podcast. dynamic. And this is a woman's podcast. We we know that not many if any No, we We we know that not many if any No, we We we know that not many if any No, we actually know of a few men who are actually know of a few men who are actually know of a few men who are listening, which is really fun. We Hello listening, which is really fun. We Hello listening, which is really fun. We Hello to all of you out there, all two of you. to all of you out there, all two of you. to all of you out there, all two of you. Um but you know, we know that not many Um but you know, we know that not many Um but you know, we know that not many pastors or elders are listening, but are pastors or elders are listening, but are pastors or elders are listening, but are there some practices that you would there some practices that you would there some practices that you would commend or warn against um commend or warn against um commend or warn against um for a pastor or elder to shepherd a for a pastor or elder to shepherd a for a pastor or elder to shepherd a woman well through the process of woman well through the process of woman well through the process of unwanted divorce because I am imagining unwanted divorce because I am imagining unwanted divorce because I am imagining that you have simultaneously seen it that you have simultaneously seen it that you have simultaneously seen it done well and seen it done poorly. Yeah, done well and seen it done poorly. Yeah, done well and seen it done poorly. Yeah, I um I um I um had a really sweet situation at my had a really sweet situation at my had a really sweet situation at my church in Seattle where one of my elders church in Seattle where one of my elders church in Seattle where one of my elders was a lawyer. was a lawyer. was a lawyer. And he knew a Christian family attorney And he knew a Christian family attorney And he knew a Christian family attorney in his law group. And so he and that in his law group. And so he and that in his law group. And so he and that Christian attorney and my pastor Christian attorney and my pastor Christian attorney and my pastor all sat down with me around at the law all sat down with me around at the law all sat down with me around at the law office around a table and we just office around a table and we just office around a table and we just brainstormed.

brainstormed. brainstormed. They knew my heart They knew my heart They knew my heart um which was to not divorce and they um which was to not divorce and they um which was to not divorce and they were very careful to offer wisdom but be were very careful to offer wisdom but be were very careful to offer wisdom but be very careful to say to me Wendy, you very careful to say to me Wendy, you very careful to say to me Wendy, you know, these are your choices. But we'll know, these are your choices. But we'll know, these are your choices. But we'll support you in this and then just kind support you in this and then just kind support you in this and then just kind of helping me brainstorm and think of helping me brainstorm and think of helping me brainstorm and think through the pros and cons, the different through the pros and cons, the different through the pros and cons, the different steps I could take that funneled me down steps I could take that funneled me down steps I could take that funneled me down to you know, the place where I ended up. to you know, the place where I ended up. to you know, the place where I ended up. But they're But they're But they're they're coming around me with grace and they're coming around me with grace and they're coming around me with grace and wisdom. wisdom. wisdom. Just I cannot say enough about what that Just I cannot say enough about what that Just I cannot say enough about what that ministered to me and their spirit and ministered to me and their spirit and ministered to me and their spirit and their prayer praying with me and just their prayer praying with me and just their prayer praying with me and just having them as sounding boards of of having them as sounding boards of of having them as sounding boards of of these men that had authority in my life these men that had authority in my life these men that had authority in my life but loved me sacrificially. but loved me sacrificially. but loved me sacrificially. Um it it just made all the difference. Um it it just made all the difference. Um it it just made all the difference. Wow. Wow. Wow. I had a similarly wonderful church I had a similarly wonderful church I had a similarly wonderful church experience. My pastor actually is a experience. My pastor actually is a experience. My pastor actually is a friend and he friend and he friend and he got a bunch of women together and um got a bunch of women together and um got a bunch of women together and um they had different things that that they they had different things that that they they had different things that that they were going to do. Like one um organized were going to do. Like one um organized were going to do. Like one um organized prayer for me every few weeks and a prayer for me every few weeks and a prayer for me every few weeks and a bunch people came and prayed and meals bunch people came and prayed and meals bunch people came and prayed and meals and they had an elder who cut my grass and they had an elder who cut my grass and they had an elder who cut my grass and and I mean I got complete care which and and I mean I got complete care which and and I mean I got complete care which was incredible and was incredible and was incredible and and so that was wonderful and I would and so that was wonderful and I would and so that was wonderful and I would also say to if any elders are listening also say to if any elders are listening also say to if any elders are listening like see if there's a woman who might like see if there's a woman who might like see if there's a woman who might mentor this this person who's going mentor this this person who's going mentor this this person who's going through a divorce and maybe tell the

through a divorce and maybe tell the through a divorce and maybe tell the head of women's ministry like hey look head of women's ministry like hey look head of women's ministry like hey look out for this person because having out for this person because having out for this person because having somebody somebody somebody look out for you before you know, seeing look out for you before you know, seeing look out for you before you know, seeing what you need even like child care. I what you need even like child care. I what you need even like child care. I have talked to a lot of have talked to a lot of have talked to a lot of women who are going through divorce that women who are going through divorce that women who are going through divorce that can't show up at events anymore because can't show up at events anymore because can't show up at events anymore because they have nobody to watch their children they have nobody to watch their children they have nobody to watch their children and you don't really want to pay a and you don't really want to pay a and you don't really want to pay a babysitter to go do that. So proactively babysitter to go do that. So proactively babysitter to go do that. So proactively thinking what are your needs? Like what thinking what are your needs? Like what thinking what are your needs? Like what how can we help you get fellowship? how can we help you get fellowship? how can we help you get fellowship? >> That is I love that both of you have >> That is I love that both of you have >> That is I love that both of you have experiences that you can command and experiences that you can command and experiences that you can command and even as you were talking I thought, you even as you were talking I thought, you even as you were talking I thought, you know, there are certainly wives of know, there are certainly wives of know, there are certainly wives of pastors and elders listening and so pastors and elders listening and so pastors and elders listening and so maybe share this portion of of what was maybe share this portion of of what was maybe share this portion of of what was done well because there's something done well because there's something done well because there's something about when something's done well that's about when something's done well that's about when something's done well that's set before us. I remember our old church set before us. I remember our old church set before us. I remember our old church they the deacons would have a dinner and they the deacons would have a dinner and they the deacons would have a dinner and it was just the deacons. Our wives it was just the deacons. Our wives it was just the deacons. Our wives weren't there. It was just the deacons weren't there. It was just the deacons weren't there. It was just the deacons for all of the widowed divorced, single for all of the widowed divorced, single for all of the widowed divorced, single women really above a certain age. women really above a certain age. women really above a certain age. Um, and they started off having it Um, and they started off having it Um, and they started off having it around February 14th, which is really around February 14th, which is really around February 14th, which is really sweet. I don't know if they still do it, sweet. I don't know if they still do it, sweet. I don't know if they still do it, you know, during that time. But they you know, during that time. But they you know, during that time. But they would just sit down and not only be would just sit down and not only be would just sit down and not only be conversation partners because because we conversation partners because because we conversation partners because because we need our brothers and fathers and sons need our brothers and fathers and sons need our brothers and fathers and sons in the faith to have good conversations in the faith to have good conversations in the faith to have good conversations with.

with. with. Um, we, you know, we we glean something Um, we, you know, we we glean something Um, we, you know, we we glean something that we wouldn't uh in that we don't in that we wouldn't uh in that we don't in that we wouldn't uh in that we don't in just single gendered conversations. And just single gendered conversations. And just single gendered conversations. And so it's ex- exposing and off- offering so it's ex- exposing and off- offering so it's ex- exposing and off- offering those opportunities. But then they did those opportunities. But then they did those opportunities. But then they did exactly what you said. They were like, exactly what you said. They were like, exactly what you said. They were like, "Hey, if you ever need somebody to come "Hey, if you ever need somebody to come "Hey, if you ever need somebody to come uh clean out your gutters or mow move uh clean out your gutters or mow move uh clean out your gutters or mow move your pool furniture or be there when a your pool furniture or be there when a your pool furniture or be there when a repairman comes by." Like they were repairman comes by." Like they were repairman comes by." Like they were offering, they were being the church, offering, they were being the church, offering, they were being the church, they were being the hands and feet of they were being the hands and feet of they were being the hands and feet of Christ to Christ to Christ to the the widow uh to the single woman. the the widow uh to the single woman. the the widow uh to the single woman. And it was just really, really And it was just really, really And it was just really, really beautiful. So, thank you for kind of beautiful. So, thank you for kind of beautiful. So, thank you for kind of holding that out there as something um holding that out there as something um holding that out there as something um to be to move towards uh Lord willing in to be to move towards uh Lord willing in to be to move towards uh Lord willing in all of our churches with wisdom and all of our churches with wisdom and all of our churches with wisdom and compassion. compassion. compassion. So, we've really been So, we've really been So, we've really been talking about two groups of women talking about two groups of women talking about two groups of women predominantly. And And I don't I just predominantly. And And I don't I just predominantly. And And I don't I just want to recognize that there is probably want to recognize that there is probably want to recognize that there is probably a third group. So, there's all of us uh a third group. So, there's all of us uh a third group. So, there's all of us uh every everybody listening who is a every everybody listening who is a every everybody listening who is a church member, we want to become better church member, we want to become better church member, we want to become better church members at loving women in all church members at loving women in all church members at loving women in all types of suffering. And And we're types of suffering. And And we're types of suffering. And And we're talking about this one type of suffering talking about this one type of suffering talking about this one type of suffering right now. And then we've definitely right now. And then we've definitely right now. And then we've definitely been hoping that this conversation been hoping that this conversation been hoping that this conversation offers some real hope and help and offers some real hope and help and offers some real hope and help and encouragement for any woman who is right encouragement for any woman who is right encouragement for any woman who is right now in the midst of just the chaos of an now in the midst of just the chaos of an now in the midst of just the chaos of an unwanted divorce.

unwanted divorce. unwanted divorce. But I want to just briefly um speak to But I want to just briefly um speak to But I want to just briefly um speak to the woman the woman the woman who maybe is on the front end of a who maybe is on the front end of a who maybe is on the front end of a divorce. Maybe she has biblical grounds, divorce. Maybe she has biblical grounds, divorce. Maybe she has biblical grounds, but maybe there's maybe there's been but maybe there's maybe there's been but maybe there's maybe there's been like the fruit of true repentance, which like the fruit of true repentance, which like the fruit of true repentance, which we've we've talked about. Or maybe it's we've we've talked about. Or maybe it's we've we've talked about. Or maybe it's just a woman who's just kind of tired, just a woman who's just kind of tired, just a woman who's just kind of tired, thinks the grass is going to be greener thinks the grass is going to be greener thinks the grass is going to be greener on the other side, and thinks, you know, on the other side, and thinks, you know, on the other side, and thinks, you know, what? I'm ready to bail on this because what? I'm ready to bail on this because what? I'm ready to bail on this because this is not all that I was expecting it this is not all that I was expecting it this is not all that I was expecting it to be. So, maybe the woman who right now to be. So, maybe the woman who right now to be. So, maybe the woman who right now thinks that um divorce sounds thinks that um divorce sounds thinks that um divorce sounds like a pretty good option. Um I'd love like a pretty good option. Um I'd love like a pretty good option. Um I'd love to take just a minute to to allow each to take just a minute to to allow each to take just a minute to to allow each of you um Benita, would you go first on of you um Benita, would you go first on of you um Benita, would you go first on offering a word to that woman? Yeah, offering a word to that woman? Yeah, offering a word to that woman? Yeah, I would say divorce is no fun at all. It I would say divorce is no fun at all. It I would say divorce is no fun at all. It is not It is grueling, hard, is not It is grueling, hard, is not It is grueling, hard, heart-ripping. So, if somebody is heart-ripping. So, if somebody is heart-ripping. So, if somebody is looking at this like this is going to looking at this like this is going to looking at this like this is going to solve my problems, solve my problems, solve my problems, it will not. Like especially if you're it will not. Like especially if you're it will not. Like especially if you're just in a hard marriage that, you know, just in a hard marriage that, you know, just in a hard marriage that, you know, there's there are hard marriages, and there's there are hard marriages, and there's there are hard marriages, and divorce is not the answer in that at divorce is not the answer in that at divorce is not the answer in that at all.

all. all. I would say, I would say, I would say, you know, pray, ask God to give you you know, pray, ask God to give you you know, pray, ask God to give you wisdom and strength, as well as wisdom and strength, as well as wisdom and strength, as well as if there is real repentance, which, you if there is real repentance, which, you if there is real repentance, which, you know, Courtney, we just talked earlier know, Courtney, we just talked earlier know, Courtney, we just talked earlier about the fact that I had been in um about the fact that I had been in um about the fact that I had been in um I had pretty newly married when my um I had pretty newly married when my um I had pretty newly married when my um ex-husband had an affair, and we ex-husband had an affair, and we ex-husband had an affair, and we went to counseling and had 10 amazing went to counseling and had 10 amazing went to counseling and had 10 amazing years, and it was worth all that work. I years, and it was worth all that work. I years, and it was worth all that work. I would do it again, even though we would do it again, even though we would do it again, even though we ultimately did get divorced. He ultimately did get divorced. He ultimately did get divorced. He really showed fruit, and, you know, really showed fruit, and, you know, really showed fruit, and, you know, fruit does not sound like um "Hey, are fruit does not sound like um "Hey, are fruit does not sound like um "Hey, are you over this yet?" It It is Fruit is you over this yet?" It It is Fruit is you over this yet?" It It is Fruit is listening, owning it, continuing to come listening, owning it, continuing to come listening, owning it, continuing to come back. back. back. And we had a great marriage, and I am so And we had a great marriage, and I am so And we had a great marriage, and I am so thankful for that, and thankful for that, and thankful for that, and so I am all for if you can work on it, so I am all for if you can work on it, so I am all for if you can work on it, work on it. It's worth it for the glory work on it. It's worth it for the glory work on it. It's worth it for the glory of God. At the same time, you need of God. At the same time, you need of God. At the same time, you need wisdom, and maybe you can speak to that, wisdom, and maybe you can speak to that, wisdom, and maybe you can speak to that, but it it's not a one-size-fits-all but it it's not a one-size-fits-all but it it's not a one-size-fits-all right at all.

right at all. right at all. At all. Wendy, would you going to come At all. Wendy, would you going to come At all. Wendy, would you going to come in with? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in in with? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in in with? Yeah. Yeah. Well, you know, in terms of like uh the safety of your terms of like uh the safety of your terms of like uh the safety of your children or safety of yourself, you children or safety of yourself, you children or safety of yourself, you know, that's a different a different know, that's a different a different know, that's a different a different tension altogether, a different boat. tension altogether, a different boat. tension altogether, a different boat. But, I've never known anyone who fought But, I've never known anyone who fought But, I've never known anyone who fought for their marriage that regretted for their marriage that regretted for their marriage that regretted fighting for their marriage. fighting for their marriage. fighting for their marriage. And you know, mine didn't end the way, And you know, mine didn't end the way, And you know, mine didn't end the way, you know, I wanted it. And yet, at the you know, I wanted it. And yet, at the you know, I wanted it. And yet, at the same time, I can say I'm I'm thankful same time, I can say I'm I'm thankful same time, I can say I'm I'm thankful that God has saved me from some of the that God has saved me from some of the that God has saved me from some of the consequences of my my ex-husband's consequences of my my ex-husband's consequences of my my ex-husband's illness, but I never ever regret that I illness, but I never ever regret that I illness, but I never ever regret that I fought in every way that I could fought in every way that I could fought in every way that I could to keep our family intact. Because, like to keep our family intact. Because, like to keep our family intact. Because, like Vinita says, you know, you may think Vinita says, you know, you may think Vinita says, you know, you may think it's hard being married, divorce is it's hard being married, divorce is it's hard being married, divorce is hard. hard. hard. You know, being a single mom is hard. You know, being a single mom is hard. You know, being a single mom is hard. And there are hard consequences on both And there are hard consequences on both And there are hard consequences on both sides. sides. sides. And so, I I I think it's worth fighting And so, I I I think it's worth fighting And so, I I I think it's worth fighting for, always worth fighting for. That is for, always worth fighting for. That is for, always worth fighting for. That is um hard-won wisdom, and I appreciate you um hard-won wisdom, and I appreciate you um hard-won wisdom, and I appreciate you sharing it um with all of us. Well, I sharing it um with all of us. Well, I sharing it um with all of us. Well, I want to ask one last um just, you know, want to ask one last um just, you know, want to ask one last um just, you know, serious question.

serious question. serious question. Um and that is, would you each just Um and that is, would you each just Um and that is, would you each just speak a word of hope to any woman speak a word of hope to any woman speak a word of hope to any woman listening who right now listening who right now listening who right now um um um is in the midst of maybe she's just is in the midst of maybe she's just is in the midst of maybe she's just found out um found out um found out um that an unwanted divorce is on the that an unwanted divorce is on the that an unwanted divorce is on the horizon. And we just want you to know we horizon. And we just want you to know we horizon. And we just want you to know we we see you, we care about you, and I we see you, we care about you, and I we see you, we care about you, and I would love each of you to speak a word would love each of you to speak a word would love each of you to speak a word of um encouragement to her. of um encouragement to her. of um encouragement to her. I would say God is writing a good story I would say God is writing a good story I would say God is writing a good story with your life. with your life. with your life. Like, this is not the end. Like, this is not the end. Like, this is not the end. And so, hang on to God and trust him. He And so, hang on to God and trust him. He And so, hang on to God and trust him. He will walk you through what feels will walk you through what feels will walk you through what feels unthinkable. unthinkable. unthinkable. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, and I go back to Psalm 126 over Yeah, and I go back to Psalm 126 over Yeah, and I go back to Psalm 126 over and over and over again. Though we are and over and over again. Though we are and over and over again. Though we are weeping, Lord, help us keep sowing weeping, Lord, help us keep sowing weeping, Lord, help us keep sowing the seeds of your kingdom for the day we the seeds of your kingdom for the day we the seeds of your kingdom for the day we will reap them, for all who go weeping will reap them, for all who go weeping will reap them, for all who go weeping will go out with songs of joy, and there will go out with songs of joy, and there will go out with songs of joy, and there is still a bag of seed at your feet.

is still a bag of seed at your feet. is still a bag of seed at your feet. There's precious seed to be sown, and There's precious seed to be sown, and There's precious seed to be sown, and even as you weep, even as you weep, even as you weep, there's kingdom work to be done, good there's kingdom work to be done, good there's kingdom work to be done, good work, beautiful work. There's There's work, beautiful work. There's There's work, beautiful work. There's There's There's There's fields to cultivate. Um There's There's fields to cultivate. Um There's There's fields to cultivate. Um and it is a beautiful work. You have not and it is a beautiful work. You have not and it is a beautiful work. You have not There is hope that there will be joy and There is hope that there will be joy and There is hope that there will be joy and hope and and things to harvest down the hope and and things to harvest down the hope and and things to harvest down the road. Man, that's beautiful. Back to the road. Man, that's beautiful. Back to the road. Man, that's beautiful. Back to the nature and character of God. He's nature and character of God. He's nature and character of God. He's faithful. He's kind. He's redemptive. Um faithful. He's kind. He's redemptive. Um faithful. He's kind. He's redemptive. Um and he's at work in all things. and he's at work in all things. and he's at work in all things. Um well, we would like to end this Um well, we would like to end this Um well, we would like to end this conversation on a slightly lighter conversation on a slightly lighter conversation on a slightly lighter question. Um just as women are wrapping question. Um just as women are wrapping question. Um just as women are wrapping up this conversation. Um so, I would up this conversation. Um so, I would up this conversation. Um so, I would love to know just one thing in your life love to know just one thing in your life love to know just one thing in your life right now, no matter how small it is, right now, no matter how small it is, right now, no matter how small it is, what is one thing that is bringing you what is one thing that is bringing you what is one thing that is bringing you joy at the moment? You know what? For joy at the moment? You know what? For joy at the moment? You know what? For me, it's um my late harvest, which I've me, it's um my late harvest, which I've me, it's um my late harvest, which I've long since forgotten about my my summer long since forgotten about my my summer long since forgotten about my my summer garden bins, but I went out the other garden bins, but I went out the other garden bins, but I went out the other day and I have peppers, like jalapeno, day and I have peppers, like jalapeno, day and I have peppers, like jalapeno, banana peppers, and sweet peppers, and banana peppers, and sweet peppers, and banana peppers, and sweet peppers, and I'm like, I didn't know those came in in I'm like, I didn't know those came in in I'm like, I didn't know those came in in September and October, so I'm making me September and October, so I'm making me September and October, so I'm making me some pepper jelly. So. Okay, Wendy, some pepper jelly. So. Okay, Wendy, some pepper jelly. So. Okay, Wendy, after everything you just said about after everything you just said about after everything you just said about sowing and harvesting and the fact that sowing and harvesting and the fact that sowing and harvesting and the fact that there is still a harvest to come, and there is still a harvest to come, and there is still a harvest to come, and now you're telling us that there was now you're telling us that there was now you're telling us that there was this unexpected Uh I'm going to lose it.

this unexpected Uh I'm going to lose it. this unexpected Uh I'm going to lose it. That is so Who is like the Lord? Who is That is so Who is like the Lord? Who is That is so Who is like the Lord? Who is like the Lord? Oh my word, I love that. like the Lord? Oh my word, I love that. like the Lord? Oh my word, I love that. Okay, mine would have been a lot Okay, mine would have been a lot Okay, mine would have been a lot simpler. Venita, I just want to give you simpler. Venita, I just want to give you simpler. Venita, I just want to give you permission if yours isn't quite as permission if yours isn't quite as permission if yours isn't quite as poetic as mine. poetic as mine. poetic as mine. >> so deep and spiritual, but my my >> so deep and spiritual, but my my >> so deep and spiritual, but my my daughter is having a baby next month. My daughter is having a baby next month. My daughter is having a baby next month. My My older daughter. Um yeah, and I am My older daughter. Um yeah, and I am My older daughter. Um yeah, and I am beyond excited. So, that is not a small beyond excited. So, that is not a small beyond excited. So, that is not a small thing. It is a giant thing, and it is thing. It is a giant thing, and it is thing. It is a giant thing, and it is bringing me a ton of joy. Is amazing. Is bringing me a ton of joy. Is amazing. Is bringing me a ton of joy. Is amazing. Is this your first one? Yeah. Yeah, I just this your first one? Yeah. Yeah, I just this your first one? Yeah. Yeah, I just got your side. So, I'm remarried and and got your side. So, I'm remarried and and got your side. So, I'm remarried and and we have three granddaughters. So, super we have three granddaughters. So, super we have three granddaughters. So, super excited about those, and then Katie who excited about those, and then Katie who excited about those, and then Katie who lives in town is having a baby. I keep lives in town is having a baby. I keep lives in town is having a baby. I keep saying, "Are you going to name her saying, "Are you going to name her saying, "Are you going to name her little Venita?" But, they are not little Venita?" But, they are not little Venita?" But, they are not thinking that name. I don't know why. thinking that name. I don't know why. thinking that name. I don't know why. >> They're not? Well, that's rude. No. What >> They're not? Well, that's rude. No. What >> They're not? Well, that's rude. No. What is your grandmother name? is your grandmother name? is your grandmother name? Nana. Okay, that's so cute. That's so Nana. Okay, that's so cute. That's so Nana. Okay, that's so cute. That's so cute. I was just with Dana Gresh, and cute. I was just with Dana Gresh, and cute. I was just with Dana Gresh, and her grandmother name is Nana Dana. her grandmother name is Nana Dana. her grandmother name is Nana Dana. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Nana Dana. I just thought that was so >> Nana Dana. I just thought that was so >> Nana Dana. I just thought that was so cute.

cute. cute. Um well, Wendy and Venita, thank you. Um well, Wendy and Venita, thank you. Um well, Wendy and Venita, thank you. You have gifted us by your just You have gifted us by your just You have gifted us by your just vulnerability and transparency and vulnerability and transparency and vulnerability and transparency and willingness to share your story and your willingness to share your story and your willingness to share your story and your wisdom. wisdom. wisdom. Um and so, thank you. And friends, thank Um and so, thank you. And friends, thank Um and so, thank you. And friends, thank you for joining us on this episode of you for joining us on this episode of you for joining us on this episode of The Deep Dish from The Gospel Coalition. The Deep Dish from The Gospel Coalition. The Deep Dish from The Gospel Coalition. If you have found this conversation If you have found this conversation If you have found this conversation helpful, or you know somebody for whom helpful, or you know somebody for whom helpful, or you know somebody for whom it would be helpful, please please share it would be helpful, please please share it would be helpful, please please share it. Um please like, subscribe, and we it. Um please like, subscribe, and we it. Um please like, subscribe, and we have been saying recently the best thing have been saying recently the best thing have been saying recently the best thing you can do if you find these you can do if you find these you can do if you find these conversations helpful is leave a review conversations helpful is leave a review conversations helpful is leave a review for us on Apple [music] Podcasts so for us on Apple [music] Podcasts so for us on Apple [music] Podcasts so other people can find it, too. And we other people can find it, too. And we other people can find it, too. And we will see you next time on The Deep Dish. will see you next time on The Deep Dish. will see you next time on The Deep Dish. [music]