Practical Effects of 'Big God' Theology [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 47]

Just because you have a high and soaring Just because you have a high and soaring view of God's sovereignty, if you don't view of God's sovereignty, if you don't view of God's sovereignty, if you don't have a corresponding high and soaring have a corresponding high and soaring have a corresponding high and soaring view of his kindness and compassion, view of his kindness and compassion, view of his kindness and compassion, then according to the Bible, you don't then according to the Bible, you don't then according to the Bible, you don't yet have a high view of God. Welcome back, friends, to another Welcome back, friends, to another episode of The Everyday Pastor, a episode of The Everyday Pastor, a episode of The Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm ministry from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Smith, a pastor in Richmond, Matt Smith, a pastor in Richmond, Matt Smith, a pastor in Richmond, Virginia. Virginia. Virginia. >> And I'm Lig Duncan, >> And I'm Lig Duncan, >> And I'm Lig Duncan, >> chancellor of >> chancellor of >> chancellor of >> Reformed Theological Seminary >> Reformed Theological Seminary >> Reformed Theological Seminary >> and former pastor for many years. And we >> and former pastor for many years. And we >> and former pastor for many years. And we want to think today, Lig, just about um want to think today, Lig, just about um want to think today, Lig, just about um big God theology. So, doctrines of big God theology. So, doctrines of big God theology. So, doctrines of grace, um some contested terrain in grace, um some contested terrain in grace, um some contested terrain in Christian circles. Um but we want to Christian circles. Um but we want to Christian circles. Um but we want to think about the practical effects of think about the practical effects of think about the practical effects of having a really high view of God's having a really high view of God's having a really high view of God's sovereignty. um you and I share among sovereignty. um you and I share among sovereignty. um you and I share among many many convictions we share is that many many convictions we share is that many many convictions we share is that this kind of big God theology is not this kind of big God theology is not this kind of big God theology is not just something for seminary. It's just just something for seminary. It's just just something for seminary. It's just not something for internet debates. It not something for internet debates. It not something for internet debates. It can make a practical difference in the can make a practical difference in the can make a practical difference in the everyday life of believers. And so um everyday life of believers. And so um everyday life of believers. And so um talk a little bit about your own journey talk a little bit about your own journey talk a little bit about your own journey with coming to understand and cherish with coming to understand and cherish with coming to understand and cherish the doctrines of grace. Uh and then and the doctrines of grace. Uh and then and the doctrines of grace. Uh and then and then we'll turn toward local church then we'll turn toward local church then we'll turn toward local church ministry. Well, I I was blessed to sit ministry. Well, I I was blessed to sit ministry. Well, I I was blessed to sit under a preaching ministry that was under a preaching ministry that was under a preaching ministry that was committed to a high view of the committed to a high view of the committed to a high view of the sovereignty of God. And that's part of

sovereignty of God. And that's part of sovereignty of God. And that's part of what we mean when we say big God what we mean when we say big God what we mean when we say big God theology. It may have been John Piper theology. It may have been John Piper theology. It may have been John Piper that sort of coined that term to sort of that sort of coined that term to sort of that sort of coined that term to sort of capture the idea of the sovereignty of capture the idea of the sovereignty of capture the idea of the sovereignty of God in grace and salvation and God in grace and salvation and God in grace and salvation and providence that God uh rules over providence that God uh rules over providence that God uh rules over everything in creation and in history everything in creation and in history everything in creation and in history and in salvation. And so my my boyhood and in salvation. And so my my boyhood and in salvation. And so my my boyhood pastor Gordon Reid um beautifully pastor Gordon Reid um beautifully pastor Gordon Reid um beautifully preached from that standpoint, not in a preached from that standpoint, not in a preached from that standpoint, not in a heavy-handed way, but always consistent heavy-handed way, but always consistent heavy-handed way, but always consistent with that uh teaching. My my teenage with that uh teaching. My my teenage with that uh teaching. My my teenage pastor Paul Settle u excellent expositor pastor Paul Settle u excellent expositor pastor Paul Settle u excellent expositor also preached from that perspective. And also preached from that perspective. And also preached from that perspective. And so as a young person who actually so as a young person who actually so as a young person who actually wrestled with assurance of salvation, wrestled with assurance of salvation, wrestled with assurance of salvation, the doctrine of the sovereignty of God the doctrine of the sovereignty of God the doctrine of the sovereignty of God was key to my being able to have a sense was key to my being able to have a sense was key to my being able to have a sense of assurance that uh that God had of assurance that uh that God had of assurance that uh that God had forgiven me, that God had accepted me, forgiven me, that God had accepted me, forgiven me, that God had accepted me, that God had justified me, and that God that God had justified me, and that God that God had justified me, and that God would not let me go. because I would not let me go. because I would not let me go. because I understood that if if those things were understood that if if those things were understood that if if those things were based on me, I could lose them. And so based on me, I could lose them. And so based on me, I could lose them. And so for for and I had I had friends that for for and I had I had friends that for for and I had I had friends that were wrestling in more negative ways.

were wrestling in more negative ways. were wrestling in more negative ways. They were Christians, but they were They were Christians, but they were They were Christians, but they were wrestling with more negative ways with wrestling with more negative ways with wrestling with more negative ways with the doctrine of God's sovereignty. But the doctrine of God's sovereignty. But the doctrine of God's sovereignty. But for me, it was always a comfort. And it for me, it was always a comfort. And it for me, it was always a comfort. And it was it was not like one morning I woke was it was not like one morning I woke was it was not like one morning I woke up and said, "Oh, I understand all of up and said, "Oh, I understand all of up and said, "Oh, I understand all of that now. I understand how God's that now. I understand how God's that now. I understand how God's sovereignty in humans respond. It was sovereignty in humans respond. It was sovereignty in humans respond. It was that I I woke up and I realized one, that I I woke up and I realized one, that I I woke up and I realized one, this is all over the Bible. This isn't this is all over the Bible. This isn't this is all over the Bible. This isn't some, you know, sort of obscure some, you know, sort of obscure some, you know, sort of obscure portion in the margins. It's everywhere portion in the margins. It's everywhere portion in the margins. It's everywhere that you look from Genesis to that you look from Genesis to that you look from Genesis to Revelation. And so, even if I didn't Revelation. And so, even if I didn't Revelation. And so, even if I didn't understand the teaching fully, I knew, understand the teaching fully, I knew, understand the teaching fully, I knew, okay, it's biblical, it's there. and and okay, it's biblical, it's there. and and okay, it's biblical, it's there. and and then the way my pastors and my youth then the way my pastors and my youth then the way my pastors and my youth ministers and others applied it, I ministers and others applied it, I ministers and others applied it, I realized this is actually the basis on realized this is actually the basis on realized this is actually the basis on which I know that I'm right with God, which I know that I'm right with God, which I know that I'm right with God, that I'm not going to lose my salvation, that I'm not going to lose my salvation, that I'm not going to lose my salvation, that God is not going to stop loving me. that God is not going to stop loving me. that God is not going to stop loving me. Um, and and so for me, from the very Um, and and so for me, from the very Um, and and so for me, from the very beginning, it was a comfort. Now, I also beginning, it was a comfort. Now, I also beginning, it was a comfort. Now, I also knew that I had friends that really knew that I had friends that really knew that I had friends that really wrestled with is it fair? Is it just?

wrestled with is it fair? Is it just? wrestled with is it fair? Is it just? How how can it be that God would decide How how can it be that God would decide How how can it be that God would decide these things? What about people that these things? What about people that these things? What about people that don't they there are all sorts of don't they there are all sorts of don't they there are all sorts of questions that friends of mine had? And questions that friends of mine had? And questions that friends of mine had? And I wanted to be sensitive to that. But I wanted to be sensitive to that. But I wanted to be sensitive to that. But for me personally, it was all always a for me personally, it was all always a for me personally, it was all always a comfort. And um and and so as as I've as comfort. And um and and so as as I've as comfort. And um and and so as as I've as I've been able to preach the gospel over I've been able to preach the gospel over I've been able to preach the gospel over the years, I've wanted to preach it in the years, I've wanted to preach it in the years, I've wanted to preach it in such a way that people would see that such a way that people would see that such a way that people would see that the sovereignty of God is a pillow upon the sovereignty of God is a pillow upon the sovereignty of God is a pillow upon which the believer can rest his head. which the believer can rest his head. which the believer can rest his head. And it it it I mean it literally enables And it it it I mean it literally enables And it it it I mean it literally enables me to go to sleep at night in this crazy me to go to sleep at night in this crazy me to go to sleep at night in this crazy world that we live in where so many world that we live in where so many world that we live in where so many things are wrong and so many horrible things are wrong and so many horrible things are wrong and so many horrible things are done to know that ultimately things are done to know that ultimately things are done to know that ultimately God will have the last word that he's God will have the last word that he's God will have the last word that he's working for my good even in working for my good even in working for my good even in circumstances that aren't good circumstances that aren't good circumstances that aren't good themselves themselves themselves that he will prevail. that he will prevail. that he will prevail. uh that that all of this is part of a uh that that all of this is part of a uh that that all of this is part of a plan that he has had from before the plan that he has had from before the plan that he has had from before the foundations of the world that all of foundations of the world that all of foundations of the world that all of that blesses my soul to know and uh that blesses my soul to know and uh that blesses my soul to know and uh >> we are in God's plan a >> we are in God's plan a >> we are in God's plan a >> right and and so so for me it it has >> right and and so so for me it it has >> right and and so so for me it it has always been a joy and and though I have always been a joy and and though I have always been a joy and and though I have throughout every stage of my ministry throughout every stage of my ministry throughout every stage of my ministry had dear dear friends that really really had dear dear friends that really really had dear dear friends that really really struggled with it struggled with it struggled with it enabled me to to to sort of enabled me to to to sort of enabled me to to to sort of sympathetically and patiently work with

sympathetically and patiently work with sympathetically and patiently work with them uh through the struggles that they them uh through the struggles that they them uh through the struggles that they had. How about you, Matt? How is this had. How about you, Matt? How is this had. How about you, Matt? How is this something that was a part of your something that was a part of your something that was a part of your testimony from the very beginning of testimony from the very beginning of testimony from the very beginning of your Christian experience or is this your Christian experience or is this your Christian experience or is this something that you discovered later on? something that you discovered later on? something that you discovered later on? Yeah. To one of the things we're talking Yeah. To one of the things we're talking Yeah. To one of the things we're talking about is what's sometimes referred to as about is what's sometimes referred to as about is what's sometimes referred to as Calvinism. I didn't have an Calvinism. I didn't have an Calvinism. I didn't have an anti-calvinistic upbringing, but it anti-calvinistic upbringing, but it anti-calvinistic upbringing, but it wasn't particularly a theologically wasn't particularly a theologically wasn't particularly a theologically minded environment, even though it was minded environment, even though it was minded environment, even though it was devoutly and sincerely Christian. It was devoutly and sincerely Christian. It was devoutly and sincerely Christian. It was when I was in youth group actually at a when I was in youth group actually at a when I was in youth group actually at a PCA church that the youth minister PCA church that the youth minister PCA church that the youth minister taught on the uh the the five points of taught on the uh the the five points of taught on the uh the the five points of Calvinism. And I remember my first Calvinism. And I remember my first Calvinism. And I remember my first response being um I I was a bit insulted response being um I I was a bit insulted response being um I I was a bit insulted by the the the thought. it it just it by the the the thought. it it just it by the the the thought. it it just it just didn't seem like good news. So, I just didn't seem like good news. So, I just didn't seem like good news. So, I would say my trajectory has been viewing would say my trajectory has been viewing would say my trajectory has been viewing this high soaring view of God's this high soaring view of God's this high soaring view of God's sovereignty over all things including sovereignty over all things including sovereignty over all things including suffering, including salvation, viewing suffering, including salvation, viewing suffering, including salvation, viewing it as bad news, and then coming to view it as bad news, and then coming to view it as bad news, and then coming to view it as true news. Uh meaning as I it as true news. Uh meaning as I it as true news. Uh meaning as I grappled with it further, particularly grappled with it further, particularly grappled with it further, particularly in my college years, I came to see, in my college years, I came to see, in my college years, I came to see, okay, this is biblical. I may not like okay, this is biblical. I may not like okay, this is biblical. I may not like it, but here it is. It's unavoidable.

it, but here it is. It's unavoidable. it, but here it is. It's unavoidable. but going from viewing it as bad news to but going from viewing it as bad news to but going from viewing it as bad news to true news to ultimately good news. Good. true news to ultimately good news. Good. true news to ultimately good news. Good. And like you said, it's not And like you said, it's not And like you said, it's not >> fundamentally a tool for feeling >> fundamentally a tool for feeling >> fundamentally a tool for feeling superior. It's not a weapon for superior. It's not a weapon for superior. It's not a weapon for fighting. It's a pillow that we can lay fighting. It's a pillow that we can lay fighting. It's a pillow that we can lay our heads on um and rest under his our heads on um and rest under his our heads on um and rest under his sovereign smile if we're in in Christ. sovereign smile if we're in in Christ. sovereign smile if we're in in Christ. Um what would you commend now as we Um what would you commend now as we Um what would you commend now as we think about pastoring for someone think about pastoring for someone think about pastoring for someone listening to this who's nervous to quote listening to this who's nervous to quote listening to this who's nervous to quote unquote go there? And and to be clear, unquote go there? And and to be clear, unquote go there? And and to be clear, we're not saying you have to use all of we're not saying you have to use all of we're not saying you have to use all of the the the buzzwords or anything like the the the buzzwords or anything like the the the buzzwords or anything like that. I don't use them in my sermons. that. I don't use them in my sermons. that. I don't use them in my sermons. But but for a pastor who's hesitant to But but for a pastor who's hesitant to But but for a pastor who's hesitant to hold up a big sovereign God and to teach hold up a big sovereign God and to teach hold up a big sovereign God and to teach cuz here's the thing, league in the New cuz here's the thing, league in the New cuz here's the thing, league in the New Testament, this stuff seems like it's Testament, this stuff seems like it's Testament, this stuff seems like it's not optional and it's not advanced. Now not optional and it's not advanced. Now not optional and it's not advanced. Now there there's a depth of mystery, right? there there's a depth of mystery, right? there there's a depth of mystery, right? Mystery is the essence of theology. And Mystery is the essence of theology. And Mystery is the essence of theology. And yet, it's not like Paul and Peter and yet, it's not like Paul and Peter and yet, it's not like Paul and Peter and the other biblical writers wait until the other biblical writers wait until the other biblical writers wait until their their recipients have reached some their their recipients have reached some their their recipients have reached some later stage of Christian growth before later stage of Christian growth before later stage of Christian growth before they're going to apply the doctrine of they're going to apply the doctrine of they're going to apply the doctrine of God's sovereignty to everyday God's sovereignty to everyday God's sovereignty to everyday circumstances. So knowing with the circumstances. So knowing with the circumstances. So knowing with the assumption that these doctrines are assumption that these doctrines are assumption that these doctrines are meant to steady God's people, not meant to steady God's people, not meant to steady God's people, not confuse them, um, and that avoiding this confuse them, um, and that avoiding this confuse them, um, and that avoiding this stuff actually creates more pastoral stuff actually creates more pastoral stuff actually creates more pastoral problems in the long run.

problems in the long run. problems in the long run. What would you commend to pastors who What would you commend to pastors who What would you commend to pastors who maybe haven't been sounding this note maybe haven't been sounding this note maybe haven't been sounding this note much in their ministry yet? much in their ministry yet? much in their ministry yet? >> That's good. And and and let me >> That's good. And and and let me >> That's good. And and and let me acknowledge what you've already tacitly acknowledge what you've already tacitly acknowledge what you've already tacitly pointed to. There is a reality that in pointed to. There is a reality that in pointed to. There is a reality that in some places there is such a resistance some places there is such a resistance some places there is such a resistance to this teaching that the use of certain to this teaching that the use of certain to this teaching that the use of certain technical terms or buzzwords can can technical terms or buzzwords can can technical terms or buzzwords can can create a controversy. And so there is a create a controversy. And so there is a create a controversy. And so there is a place for pastoral wisdom here. I'll place for pastoral wisdom here. I'll place for pastoral wisdom here. I'll tell you a story from the history of tell you a story from the history of tell you a story from the history of RTS. When when Reformed Theological RTS. When when Reformed Theological RTS. When when Reformed Theological Seminary was formed and admitted our Seminary was formed and admitted our Seminary was formed and admitted our first students in 1966, first students in 1966, first students in 1966, most of our students then were going to most of our students then were going to most of our students then were going to southern Presbyterian churches, the old southern Presbyterian churches, the old southern Presbyterian churches, the old PCUS before the PCUS and the PCUSA PCUS before the PCUS and the PCUSA PCUS before the PCUS and the PCUSA joined together again, the Northern and joined together again, the Northern and joined together again, the Northern and Southern Presbyterian churches in 1983. Southern Presbyterian churches in 1983. Southern Presbyterian churches in 1983. And uh many of those students were they And uh many of those students were they And uh many of those students were they were hearing big god theology, they were were hearing big god theology, they were were hearing big god theology, they were hearing reformed theology or Calvinism hearing reformed theology or Calvinism hearing reformed theology or Calvinism in their classes. and they were excited in their classes. and they were excited in their classes. and they were excited about it because they had not heard it about it because they had not heard it about it because they had not heard it clearly taught in their churches growing clearly taught in their churches growing clearly taught in their churches growing up. I mean to today we can assume a up. I mean to today we can assume a up. I mean to today we can assume a knowledge of Calvinism much more broadly knowledge of Calvinism much more broadly knowledge of Calvinism much more broadly than you could have in the 1960s. You than you could have in the 1960s. You than you could have in the 1960s. You know the the you know RC Sproul wasn't know the the you know RC Sproul wasn't know the the you know RC Sproul wasn't yet on the the scene. John Piper wasn't yet on the the scene. John Piper wasn't yet on the the scene. John Piper wasn't yet on the scene. the people that have yet on the scene. the people that have yet on the scene. the people that have John MacArthur had been pastoring his

John MacArthur had been pastoring his John MacArthur had been pastoring his church for a decade or more, but I'm not church for a decade or more, but I'm not church for a decade or more, but I'm not sure people would have known the sure people would have known the sure people would have known the perspective that he was coming from. And perspective that he was coming from. And perspective that he was coming from. And so these students would get into classes so these students would get into classes so these students would get into classes at RTS and hear the doctrines of grace at RTS and hear the doctrines of grace at RTS and hear the doctrines of grace taught in the doctrine of salvation taught in the doctrine of salvation taught in the doctrine of salvation course and they would just be on fire. course and they would just be on fire. course and they would just be on fire. And they would assume that since they And they would assume that since they And they would assume that since they were going to a Presbyterian church that were going to a Presbyterian church that were going to a Presbyterian church that the people were going to have that same the people were going to have that same the people were going to have that same view. And they were often sadly mistaken view. And they were often sadly mistaken view. And they were often sadly mistaken because Presbyterian churches because because Presbyterian churches because because Presbyterian churches because they had been impacted by liberalism and they had been impacted by liberalism and they had been impacted by liberalism and by neo orthodoxy and and just by the by neo orthodoxy and and just by the by neo orthodoxy and and just by the sort of generic sort of generic sort of generic not big god evangelical theology of the not big god evangelical theology of the not big god evangelical theology of the day. There was a lot of resistance to day. There was a lot of resistance to day. There was a lot of resistance to it. And so a lot of a lot of young guys it. And so a lot of a lot of young guys it. And so a lot of a lot of young guys went out of RTS in the 1960s and early went out of RTS in the 1960s and early went out of RTS in the 1960s and early '7s and it it led to church '7s and it it led to church '7s and it it led to church controversies when they taught the controversies when they taught the controversies when they taught the doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty doctrines of grace and God's sovereignty and predestination and election and and predestination and election and and predestination and election and things like that. So there there's things like that. So there there's things like that. So there there's definitely a place for pastoral wisdom. definitely a place for pastoral wisdom. definitely a place for pastoral wisdom. And I know again I have so many friends And I know again I have so many friends And I know again I have so many friends that minister in Baptist churches in that minister in Baptist churches in that minister in Baptist churches in Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama.

Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. Louisiana, Mississippi, and Alabama. There are places where this is very very There are places where this is very very There are places where this is very very controversial. And so you you look at a controversial. And so you you look at a controversial. And so you you look at a person like Clint Presley who went to person like Clint Presley who went to person like Clint Presley who went to Dolphin Way Baptist Church in Mobile, Dolphin Way Baptist Church in Mobile, Dolphin Way Baptist Church in Mobile, Alabama, which was not necessarily seen Alabama, which was not necessarily seen Alabama, which was not necessarily seen as a center of Calvinism in the SBC. and as a center of Calvinism in the SBC. and as a center of Calvinism in the SBC. and as of this recording, president of the as of this recording, president of the as of this recording, president of the Southern Baptist Convention. Southern Baptist Convention. Southern Baptist Convention. >> Clint and Clint just faithfully preached >> Clint and Clint just faithfully preached >> Clint and Clint just faithfully preached the text of of God's word and was able the text of of God's word and was able the text of of God's word and was able to proclaim a big God theology without to proclaim a big God theology without to proclaim a big God theology without getting into the buzzwords and such. I getting into the buzzwords and such. I getting into the buzzwords and such. I think he's a model picture of how to go think he's a model picture of how to go think he's a model picture of how to go to a place and minister the word to a place and minister the word to a place and minister the word faithfully, not cutting corners, not faithfully, not cutting corners, not faithfully, not cutting corners, not being afraid to address the hard things, being afraid to address the hard things, being afraid to address the hard things, but doing it in a sensitive pastoral but doing it in a sensitive pastoral but doing it in a sensitive pastoral way. And again, my my my view is if we way. And again, my my my view is if we way. And again, my my my view is if we can explain to people why this is so can explain to people why this is so can explain to people why this is so good for them, why it is so good, why good for them, why it is so good, why good for them, why it is so good, why why it's good news that God is why it's good news that God is why it's good news that God is sovereign, that that goes a long way to sovereign, that that goes a long way to sovereign, that that goes a long way to pulling down some of the defenses that pulling down some of the defenses that pulling down some of the defenses that that are there. And one thing that we've that are there. And one thing that we've that are there. And one thing that we've got in common is all of us in the got in common is all of us in the got in common is all of us in the Baptist tradition and the Presbyterian Baptist tradition and the Presbyterian Baptist tradition and the Presbyterian tradition that flow out of the reformed tradition that flow out of the reformed tradition that flow out of the reformed tradition that believe in the tradition that believe in the tradition that believe in the perseverance of the saints.

perseverance of the saints. perseverance of the saints. That's a that's a Calvinistic doctrine. That's a that's a Calvinistic doctrine. That's a that's a Calvinistic doctrine. That's a distinctively reformed That's a distinctively reformed That's a distinctively reformed doctrine. And it can that can be the doctrine. And it can that can be the doctrine. And it can that can be the doorway into helping people understand doorway into helping people understand doorway into helping people understand the other of the so-called five points the other of the so-called five points the other of the so-called five points of Calvinism because that perseverance of Calvinism because that perseverance of Calvinism because that perseverance of the saints is built on some prior of the saints is built on some prior of the saints is built on some prior theological commitments. And the the theological commitments. And the the theological commitments. And the the reason we're able to say that once reason we're able to say that once reason we're able to say that once Christ has you in his hand, he will Christ has you in his hand, he will Christ has you in his hand, he will never lose you is because of our never lose you is because of our never lose you is because of our commitment to God's sovereignty in commitment to God's sovereignty in commitment to God's sovereignty in seeking us when we were lost and seeking us when we were lost and seeking us when we were lost and wandering sheep and in drawing us to wandering sheep and in drawing us to wandering sheep and in drawing us to himself through Christ. John, the gospel himself through Christ. John, the gospel himself through Christ. John, the gospel of John is all over this. By the way, of John is all over this. By the way, of John is all over this. By the way, that's a that's another great point, that's a that's another great point, that's a that's another great point, isn't it? John that's often a gospel isn't it? John that's often a gospel isn't it? John that's often a gospel given to the youngest of Christians or given to the youngest of Christians or given to the youngest of Christians or even to non-Christians. Read through the even to non-Christians. Read through the even to non-Christians. Read through the Gospel of John. It's filled with this Gospel of John. It's filled with this Gospel of John. It's filled with this kind of big God theology. You know, no kind of big God theology. You know, no kind of big God theology. You know, no one comes to me unless the father draws one comes to me unless the father draws one comes to me unless the father draws him. You know, that's that sort of of him. You know, that's that sort of of him. You know, that's that sort of of language. It's all over the Gospel of language. It's all over the Gospel of language. It's all over the Gospel of John, the very first chapter. You know, John, the very first chapter. You know, John, the very first chapter. You know, that we're we're not born of the the that we're we're not born of the the that we're we're not born of the the will of the flesh. We're not born of a will of the flesh. We're not born of a will of the flesh. We're not born of a husband's desire. We are born of God.

husband's desire. We are born of God. husband's desire. We are born of God. You know, this emphasis on God's the one You know, this emphasis on God's the one You know, this emphasis on God's the one who makes us alive. It's it's there in who makes us alive. It's it's there in who makes us alive. It's it's there in John 3 in the great John 3:16 passage, John 3 in the great John 3:16 passage, John 3 in the great John 3:16 passage, that's the whole conversation between that's the whole conversation between that's the whole conversation between Jesus and Nicodemus. So, it's there. And Jesus and Nicodemus. So, it's there. And Jesus and Nicodemus. So, it's there. And if we can if we can root that if we can if we can root that if we can if we can root that perseverance of the saints back in those perseverance of the saints back in those perseverance of the saints back in those prior truths of God's word, that's prior truths of God's word, that's prior truths of God's word, that's sometimes a window, a door into the sometimes a window, a door into the sometimes a window, a door into the heart of people that might otherwise be heart of people that might otherwise be heart of people that might otherwise be afraid of it. And another door would be afraid of it. And another door would be afraid of it. And another door would be just the idea of prayer. Uh Jipacker just the idea of prayer. Uh Jipacker just the idea of prayer. Uh Jipacker once said, "Everyone's a Calvinist on once said, "Everyone's a Calvinist on once said, "Everyone's a Calvinist on their knees." And I know that a comment their knees." And I know that a comment their knees." And I know that a comment like that could sound glib and like that could sound glib and like that could sound glib and dismissive, but he meant that in a dismissive, but he meant that in a dismissive, but he meant that in a provocative manner because what are we provocative manner because what are we provocative manner because what are we asking God to do when we pray for that asking God to do when we pray for that asking God to do when we pray for that lost loved one, for that prodigal? Um, lost loved one, for that prodigal? Um, lost loved one, for that prodigal? Um, we are not saying, "Lord, thanks for we are not saying, "Lord, thanks for we are not saying, "Lord, thanks for hearing my prayer. Um, please work your hearing my prayer. Um, please work your hearing my prayer. Um, please work your influence, but only go so far. Please influence, but only go so far. Please influence, but only go so far. Please don't override their will." No, we're don't override their will." No, we're don't override their will." No, we're we're saying, Lord, uh, break down the we're saying, Lord, uh, break down the we're saying, Lord, uh, break down the door.

door. door. >> Yeah. Go go go in, reclaim them. >> Yeah. Go go go in, reclaim them. >> Yeah. Go go go in, reclaim them. >> And if I can give a personal testimony >> And if I can give a personal testimony >> And if I can give a personal testimony on that front, Matt, I saw that in my on that front, Matt, I saw that in my on that front, Matt, I saw that in my grandmother. My grandmother was a grandmother. My grandmother was a grandmother. My grandmother was a faithful member of a Southern Baptist faithful member of a Southern Baptist faithful member of a Southern Baptist congregation in Mims, Florida, and she congregation in Mims, Florida, and she congregation in Mims, Florida, and she really resisted the doctrines of grace. really resisted the doctrines of grace. really resisted the doctrines of grace. If you had said Calvinism to her, she If you had said Calvinism to her, she If you had said Calvinism to her, she would have bristled. But the way she would have bristled. But the way she would have bristled. But the way she prayed was gloriously trusting in the prayed was gloriously trusting in the prayed was gloriously trusting in the sovereignty of God to save sinners, sovereignty of God to save sinners, sovereignty of God to save sinners, to address circumstances that were to address circumstances that were to address circumstances that were beyond her control, to do things that beyond her control, to do things that beyond her control, to do things that were beyond her power. She she was a were beyond her power. She she was a were beyond her power. She she was a model to me of how a Christian ought to model to me of how a Christian ought to model to me of how a Christian ought to pray. And even though at a theological pray. And even though at a theological pray. And even though at a theological level, my grandmother and I would have level, my grandmother and I would have level, my grandmother and I would have disagreed about some things, when she disagreed about some things, when she disagreed about some things, when she got on her knees to pray, she was a got on her knees to pray, she was a got on her knees to pray, she was a perfect model of how a Christian ought perfect model of how a Christian ought perfect model of how a Christian ought to pray. And there are a lot of folks to pray. And there are a lot of folks to pray. And there are a lot of folks like that like that like that >> with whom we'll spend eternity and they >> with whom we'll spend eternity and they >> with whom we'll spend eternity and they they many times their prayer lives put they many times their prayer lives put they many times their prayer lives put us to shame. us to shame. us to shame. >> And it's also worth noting even just >> And it's also worth noting even just >> And it's also worth noting even just because you have a high and soaring view because you have a high and soaring view because you have a high and soaring view of God's sovereignty. If you don't have of God's sovereignty. If you don't have of God's sovereignty. If you don't have a corresponding high and soaring view of a corresponding high and soaring view of a corresponding high and soaring view of his kindness, his kindness, his kindness, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> and compassion, then according to the >> and compassion, then according to the >> and compassion, then according to the Bible, you don't yet have a high view of Bible, you don't yet have a high view of Bible, you don't yet have a high view of God. And so I think as we as we want to God. And so I think as we as we want to God. And so I think as we as we want to encourage pastors to boldly but encourage pastors to boldly but encourage pastors to boldly but carefully, sensitively preach on these carefully, sensitively preach on these carefully, sensitively preach on these things um and not just from the pulpit things um and not just from the pulpit things um and not just from the pulpit but throughout the week. How can but throughout the week. How can but throughout the week. How can ministers more effectively apply the ministers more effectively apply the ministers more effectively apply the doctrines of grace big God theology to

doctrines of grace big God theology to doctrines of grace big God theology to the ordinary struggles of a Christian's the ordinary struggles of a Christian's the ordinary struggles of a Christian's life? What what would be some some life? What what would be some some life? What what would be some some advice you'd give? Well, I mean, one is advice you'd give? Well, I mean, one is advice you'd give? Well, I mean, one is if if you preach through Bible books, if if you preach through Bible books, if if you preach through Bible books, you're going to get to this sooner or you're going to get to this sooner or you're going to get to this sooner or later. And and the books themselves will later. And and the books themselves will later. And and the books themselves will help you in terms of the application. help you in terms of the application. help you in terms of the application. So, you think of you're going to preach So, you think of you're going to preach So, you think of you're going to preach a sermon series on Ephesians. Well, a sermon series on Ephesians. Well, a sermon series on Ephesians. Well, you're not going to get five verses into you're not going to get five verses into you're not going to get five verses into Ephesians before you're confronted with Ephesians before you're confronted with Ephesians before you're confronted with this big God theology, predestination, this big God theology, predestination, this big God theology, predestination, election, being chosen in Christ before election, being chosen in Christ before election, being chosen in Christ before the foundation of the world. Bible words the foundation of the world. Bible words the foundation of the world. Bible words are there. Yeah. Yeah. Calvin didn't are there. Yeah. Yeah. Calvin didn't are there. Yeah. Yeah. Calvin didn't sneak them into the text. They're there. sneak them into the text. They're there. sneak them into the text. They're there. And so you you have to Why is Paul And so you you have to Why is Paul And so you you have to Why is Paul saying this to the Ephesians? and look saying this to the Ephesians? and look saying this to the Ephesians? and look at how he himself applies this at how he himself applies this at how he himself applies this especially in the first two chapters to especially in the first two chapters to especially in the first two chapters to their situation and and and making them their situation and and and making them their situation and and and making them realize, you know, here's this realize, you know, here's this realize, you know, here's this predominantly Gentile congregation and predominantly Gentile congregation and predominantly Gentile congregation and he's saying God has set his heart on you he's saying God has set his heart on you he's saying God has set his heart on you from before the foundation of the world.

from before the foundation of the world. from before the foundation of the world. Um, long before you existed, long before Um, long before you existed, long before Um, long before you existed, long before the world existed, God had already set the world existed, God had already set the world existed, God had already set his heart on you in love. And what a his heart on you in love. And what a his heart on you in love. And what a beautiful way to open your heart to I beautiful way to open your heart to I beautiful way to open your heart to I mean, surely that was a mind-blowing mean, surely that was a mind-blowing mean, surely that was a mind-blowing thing for those Ephesians to hear, just thing for those Ephesians to hear, just thing for those Ephesians to hear, just like it is mind-blowing for us to hear like it is mind-blowing for us to hear like it is mind-blowing for us to hear and conceive. And what a what a glorious and conceive. And what a what a glorious and conceive. And what a what a glorious way to get you into a realization of way to get you into a realization of way to get you into a realization of God's sovereignty. Reminds me of the God's sovereignty. Reminds me of the God's sovereignty. Reminds me of the famous conversation that Gardis Voss, famous conversation that Gardis Voss, famous conversation that Gardis Voss, the father of the modern biblical the father of the modern biblical the father of the modern biblical theology movement was talking with a theology movement was talking with a theology movement was talking with a young man who said, "Professor Vos, how young man who said, "Professor Vos, how young man who said, "Professor Vos, how do I know that God is not going to stop do I know that God is not going to stop do I know that God is not going to stop loving me?" And based on that chosen loving me?" And based on that chosen loving me?" And based on that chosen from before the foundation of the world from before the foundation of the world from before the foundation of the world passage, Professor Vice said because he passage, Professor Vice said because he passage, Professor Vice said because he never started. never started. never started. meaning that before there was time, meaning that before there was time, meaning that before there was time, before there was creation, God already before there was creation, God already before there was creation, God already loved you before you existed. So that loved you before you existed. So that loved you before you existed. So that that love is from eternity. It didn't that love is from eternity. It didn't that love is from eternity. It didn't have a beginning and that's why it have a beginning and that's why it have a beginning and that's why it doesn't have an end. When people start doesn't have an end. When people start doesn't have an end. When people start grasping that, then I think it it grasping that, then I think it it grasping that, then I think it it enables them to live where you were enables them to live where you were enables them to live where you were talking about. I love that little, you talking about. I love that little, you talking about. I love that little, you know, you you initially you you thought know, you you initially you you thought know, you you initially you you thought it was bad news, then you realized it it was bad news, then you realized it it was bad news, then you realized it was true news, and then you realized it was true news, and then you realized it was true news, and then you realized it was really good news. It gets people was really good news. It gets people was really good news. It gets people into that place of saying, "Okay, this into that place of saying, "Okay, this into that place of saying, "Okay, this is a mystery to me. I don't I don't is a mystery to me. I don't I don't is a mystery to me. I don't I don't fully understand how all all this, but I fully understand how all all this, but I fully understand how all all this, but I I have this inkling that this is really

I have this inkling that this is really I have this inkling that this is really good news and I want to understand why." good news and I want to understand why." good news and I want to understand why." And if if you can just get to the place And if if you can just get to the place And if if you can just get to the place where you're going to let the text of where you're going to let the text of where you're going to let the text of scripture decide the issue, you have scripture decide the issue, you have scripture decide the issue, you have gone a long way down the road. Because gone a long way down the road. Because gone a long way down the road. Because what what I find happens a lot is people what what I find happens a lot is people what what I find happens a lot is people are afraid are afraid are afraid of what the consequences of the view of what the consequences of the view of what the consequences of the view might be and therefore they don't want might be and therefore they don't want might be and therefore they don't want to read the text of scripture um in the to read the text of scripture um in the to read the text of scripture um in the way that it's set out because they're way that it's set out because they're way that it's set out because they're afraid, oh no, that would mean this that afraid, oh no, that would mean this that afraid, oh no, that would mean this that I'm afraid of or that is bad. And so I'm afraid of or that is bad. And so I'm afraid of or that is bad. And so I've got to import a different meaning I've got to import a different meaning I've got to import a different meaning into the text to make sure that the text into the text to make sure that the text into the text to make sure that the text doesn't lead to this bad consequence doesn't lead to this bad consequence doesn't lead to this bad consequence that I'm afraid of. And and what I what that I'm afraid of. And and what I what that I'm afraid of. And and what I what I try to get folks that are struggling I try to get folks that are struggling I try to get folks that are struggling is just say just tell me what that text is just say just tell me what that text is just say just tell me what that text said. Just tell me what it said and said. Just tell me what it said and said. Just tell me what it said and don't don't try and explain, you know, don't don't try and explain, you know, don't don't try and explain, you know, okay, now these are the problems with okay, now these are the problems with okay, now these are the problems with that and this might just tell me what that and this might just tell me what that and this might just tell me what the text said. Then we'll work out all the text said. Then we'll work out all the text said. Then we'll work out all the consequences and the ramifications the consequences and the ramifications the consequences and the ramifications and such, but just let the Bible speak and such, but just let the Bible speak and such, but just let the Bible speak for itself on this. And again, it's not for itself on this. And again, it's not for itself on this. And again, it's not an isolated thing. you you know you an isolated thing. you you know you an isolated thing. you you know you can't get out of the story of Joseph can't get out of the story of Joseph can't get out of the story of Joseph without Joseph saying you know this without Joseph saying you know this without Joseph saying you know this these horrible things that you did to me these horrible things that you did to me these horrible things that you did to me brothers um God meant those for good and brothers um God meant those for good and brothers um God meant those for good and you know that you know that you know that what what do you mean God meant those what what do you mean God meant those what what do you mean God meant those for good how can that be that what they for good how can that be that what they for good how can that be that what they did things that were deeply sinful and did things that were deeply sinful and did things that were deeply sinful and horrible to Joseph what do you mean God horrible to Joseph what do you mean God horrible to Joseph what do you mean God meant those for good and Joseph doesn't

meant those for good and Joseph doesn't meant those for good and Joseph doesn't pause and give you an explanation there. pause and give you an explanation there. pause and give you an explanation there. He just bloop. It's just right out He just bloop. It's just right out He just bloop. It's just right out there. And you from Genesis 50:20 all there. And you from Genesis 50:20 all there. And you from Genesis 50:20 all the way to Acts chapter 2, Peter does the way to Acts chapter 2, Peter does the way to Acts chapter 2, Peter does the same kind of thing. Jesus was the same kind of thing. Jesus was the same kind of thing. Jesus was predestined by God for ordained by God predestined by God for ordained by God predestined by God for ordained by God to be crucified on the cross at the to be crucified on the cross at the to be crucified on the cross at the hands of sinful men. Um, and he just hands of sinful men. Um, and he just hands of sinful men. Um, and he just goes right on. And I I think if I were goes right on. And I I think if I were goes right on. And I I think if I were in the crowd, I would have had my hand in the crowd, I would have had my hand in the crowd, I would have had my hand up. Excuse me, Peter. Could you just up. Excuse me, Peter. Could you just up. Excuse me, Peter. Could you just pause right there and just work that out pause right there and just work that out pause right there and just work that out for me? But he's it's just there. And if for me? But he's it's just there. And if for me? But he's it's just there. And if if I can get people just to see it in if I can get people just to see it in if I can get people just to see it in the text and then know, okay, I think the text and then know, okay, I think the text and then know, okay, I think there's something good behind this. I there's something good behind this. I there's something good behind this. I don't understand all of this yet, but I don't understand all of this yet, but I don't understand all of this yet, but I do see it in the Bible. You're halfway do see it in the Bible. You're halfway do see it in the Bible. You're halfway there. How about you as you've if you there. How about you as you've if you there. How about you as you've if you talked about that movement for you from talked about that movement for you from talked about that movement for you from true to good news, how did that work for true to good news, how did that work for true to good news, how did that work for you? And then how do you do that when you? And then how do you do that when you? And then how do you do that when you're talking to folks or preaching? you're talking to folks or preaching? you're talking to folks or preaching? Well, I found that the more I reflect on Well, I found that the more I reflect on Well, I found that the more I reflect on this theology, the more of a humbling this theology, the more of a humbling this theology, the more of a humbling effect it has in my heart. Yeah. Now, I effect it has in my heart. Yeah. Now, I effect it has in my heart. Yeah. Now, I want to be clear. I I don't consider want to be clear. I I don't consider want to be clear. I I don't consider myself a humble person. I I I but I pray myself a humble person. I I I but I pray myself a humble person. I I I but I pray that by God's grace I'm growing in that by God's grace I'm growing in that by God's grace I'm growing in humility and often the way the Lord humility and often the way the Lord humility and often the way the Lord humbles me aresh humbles me aresh humbles me aresh >> is by reminding me that he is God and I >> is by reminding me that he is God and I >> is by reminding me that he is God and I am not. Um, and am not. Um, and am not. Um, and I also think it gives me more of a I also think it gives me more of a I also think it gives me more of a patience for unbelievers in my life whom

patience for unbelievers in my life whom patience for unbelievers in my life whom I love that haven't yet responded to I love that haven't yet responded to I love that haven't yet responded to Christ and for the Christians under my Christ and for the Christians under my Christ and for the Christians under my care in my church that aren't being care in my church that aren't being care in my church that aren't being sanctified as quickly as I would like. A sanctified as quickly as I would like. A sanctified as quickly as I would like. A because it causes me to look in the because it causes me to look in the because it causes me to look in the mirror and say, "Well, nor am I." but B mirror and say, "Well, nor am I." but B mirror and say, "Well, nor am I." but B because it reminds me that God is because it reminds me that God is because it reminds me that God is writing a unique story in everyone's writing a unique story in everyone's writing a unique story in everyone's life. And again, everyone is in God's life. And again, everyone is in God's life. And again, everyone is in God's plan A for their life. I mean, yes, we plan A for their life. I mean, yes, we plan A for their life. I mean, yes, we can make foolish decisions. Yes, we can can make foolish decisions. Yes, we can can make foolish decisions. Yes, we can um do things that that are outside of um do things that that are outside of um do things that that are outside of the revealed will of God. But we can't the revealed will of God. But we can't the revealed will of God. But we can't do anything that is outside of the do anything that is outside of the do anything that is outside of the ultimate uh will of God, his will of ultimate uh will of God, his will of ultimate uh will of God, his will of decree. And there there is there is decree. And there there is there is decree. And there there is there is something there that I think really can something there that I think really can something there that I think really can help Christians. I mean, just think help Christians. I mean, just think help Christians. I mean, just think about I I recently preached Acts chapter about I I recently preached Acts chapter about I I recently preached Acts chapter 1 and the the first bit of Acts is is an 1 and the the first bit of Acts is is an 1 and the the first bit of Acts is is an incredible passage. I mean, it we got incredible passage. I mean, it we got incredible passage. I mean, it we got the the Acts 18, right? The your your the the Acts 18, right? The your your the the Acts 18, right? The your your mission to the ends of the earth. we mission to the ends of the earth. we mission to the ends of the earth. we have the ascension and uh talking about have the ascension and uh talking about have the ascension and uh talking about the and by the way we should do a whole the and by the way we should do a whole the and by the way we should do a whole episode sometime on the practical episode sometime on the practical episode sometime on the practical effects of the doctrine of the ascension effects of the doctrine of the ascension effects of the doctrine of the ascension because I think it's one of the most because I think it's one of the most because I think it's one of the most underrated underutilized doctrines in underrated underutilized doctrines in underrated underutilized doctrines in the Christian life. So I loved preaching the Christian life. So I loved preaching the Christian life. So I loved preaching that passage but then the second half of that passage but then the second half of that passage but then the second half of Acts chapter 1 isn't exactly the kind of Acts chapter 1 isn't exactly the kind of Acts chapter 1 isn't exactly the kind of text that you would choose to preach if text that you would choose to preach if text that you would choose to preach if you're going to be a you know guest you're going to be a you know guest you're going to be a you know guest preacher somewhere. It's just okay we

preacher somewhere. It's just okay we preacher somewhere. It's just okay we have Judas's defection and casting lots. have Judas's defection and casting lots. have Judas's defection and casting lots. So, as I studied it, I thought, why is So, as I studied it, I thought, why is So, as I studied it, I thought, why is Judas getting so much airtime in Acts 1? Judas getting so much airtime in Acts 1? Judas getting so much airtime in Acts 1? It makes sense at the end of the It makes sense at the end of the It makes sense at the end of the Gospels. Gospels. Gospels. It's recounting his treachery and his It's recounting his treachery and his It's recounting his treachery and his demise. demise. demise. Why here? Especially on the heels of Why here? Especially on the heels of Why here? Especially on the heels of such marching orders to to take the such marching orders to to take the such marching orders to to take the gospel to the ends of the earth. And as gospel to the ends of the earth. And as gospel to the ends of the earth. And as I reflected, I realized, well, it's I reflected, I realized, well, it's I reflected, I realized, well, it's because those early believers, those 120 because those early believers, those 120 because those early believers, those 120 believers gathered in the upper room, believers gathered in the upper room, believers gathered in the upper room, this wound was was fresh. They were this wound was was fresh. They were this wound was was fresh. They were still rattled. They were still reeling still rattled. They were still reeling still rattled. They were still reeling from what happened to Judas. Probably from what happened to Judas. Probably from what happened to Judas. Probably feeling like, well, if if Judas feeling like, well, if if Judas feeling like, well, if if Judas defected, defected, defected, am am I next? Um, of course, that's am am I next? Um, of course, that's am am I next? Um, of course, that's reminiscent of the last of the last reminiscent of the last of the last reminiscent of the last of the last supper. Is it I, Lord? Is it I? They're supper. Is it I, Lord? Is it I? They're supper. Is it I, Lord? Is it I? They're not all looking at Judas. not all looking at Judas. not all looking at Judas. >> Yeah. And I realized that what's going >> Yeah. And I realized that what's going >> Yeah. And I realized that what's going on there is pastoral when Peter stands on there is pastoral when Peter stands on there is pastoral when Peter stands up to address everyone, which is I think up to address everyone, which is I think up to address everyone, which is I think beautiful in and of itself because he's beautiful in and of itself because he's beautiful in and of itself because he's just been recommissioned by the Lord just been recommissioned by the Lord just been recommissioned by the Lord Jesus Christ to what? Feed my sheep.

Jesus Christ to what? Feed my sheep. Jesus Christ to what? Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep. And here's Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep. And here's Feed my sheep. Feed my sheep. And here's the first time he's doing it. He rises the first time he's doing it. He rises the first time he's doing it. He rises and he says, "Okay, let's talk Judas." and he says, "Okay, let's talk Judas." and he says, "Okay, let's talk Judas." And I think the larger point he's making And I think the larger point he's making And I think the larger point he's making is is is no act of wickedness can derail the no act of wickedness can derail the no act of wickedness can derail the Lord's plan. So before we get out there Lord's plan. So before we get out there Lord's plan. So before we get out there and take the gospel from Jerusalem to and take the gospel from Jerusalem to and take the gospel from Jerusalem to Judea to Samaria to the ends of the Judea to Samaria to the ends of the Judea to Samaria to the ends of the earth, let's remember who's in charge of earth, let's remember who's in charge of earth, let's remember who's in charge of this whole story. Let's remember that. this whole story. Let's remember that. this whole story. Let's remember that. And now you may think and maybe some of And now you may think and maybe some of And now you may think and maybe some of those early believers thought, "Well, those early believers thought, "Well, those early believers thought, "Well, okay, but that's that's Judas. Um, what okay, but that's that's Judas. Um, what okay, but that's that's Judas. Um, what what about me? Well, it's an argument what about me? Well, it's an argument what about me? Well, it's an argument from the greater to the lesser. If even from the greater to the lesser. If even from the greater to the lesser. If even Judas's treachery couldn't throw off the Judas's treachery couldn't throw off the Judas's treachery couldn't throw off the Lord's sovereign, wise, good plan, do Lord's sovereign, wise, good plan, do Lord's sovereign, wise, good plan, do you think anything you're going to do is you think anything you're going to do is you think anything you're going to do is going to throw him off either? And so going to throw him off either? And so going to throw him off either? And so that's just one little example of in that's just one little example of in that's just one little example of in preaching how you can take a doctrine preaching how you can take a doctrine preaching how you can take a doctrine like the sovereignty of God and apply it like the sovereignty of God and apply it like the sovereignty of God and apply it to people's hearts in a way that to people's hearts in a way that to people's hearts in a way that consoles them and helps them to remember consoles them and helps them to remember consoles them and helps them to remember that Yeah. Job 42:2, no one can thwart that Yeah. Job 42:2, no one can thwart that Yeah. Job 42:2, no one can thwart the purposes of God. Yeah. And I that's the purposes of God. Yeah. And I that's the purposes of God. Yeah. And I that's a that's a major theme in the a that's a major theme in the a that's a major theme in the scriptures. You see it in Genesis. Um, scriptures. You see it in Genesis. Um, scriptures. You see it in Genesis. Um, you of course see it in Exodus. The you of course see it in Exodus. The you of course see it in Exodus. The sovereignty of God in the whole Exodus sovereignty of God in the whole Exodus sovereignty of God in the whole Exodus story in relation to Pharaoh is story in relation to Pharaoh is story in relation to Pharaoh is highlighted by Moses, especially in the highlighted by Moses, especially in the highlighted by Moses, especially in the passages about the hardening of

passages about the hardening of passages about the hardening of Pharaoh's heart. And it's interesting Pharaoh's heart. And it's interesting Pharaoh's heart. And it's interesting how they're told from three how they're told from three how they're told from three perspectives. Pharaoh hardening his perspectives. Pharaoh hardening his perspectives. Pharaoh hardening his heart, Pharaoh's heart being hardened, heart, Pharaoh's heart being hardened, heart, Pharaoh's heart being hardened, God hardening Pharaoh's heart. And so it God hardening Pharaoh's heart. And so it God hardening Pharaoh's heart. And so it hits the dynamics of God's sovereignty hits the dynamics of God's sovereignty hits the dynamics of God's sovereignty and human responsibility. But it is very and human responsibility. But it is very and human responsibility. But it is very clear the context is between who's clear the context is between who's clear the context is between who's sovereign here. Is Pharaoh sovereign or sovereign here. Is Pharaoh sovereign or sovereign here. Is Pharaoh sovereign or is God sovereign? And so God's is God sovereign? And so God's is God sovereign? And so God's sovereignty is a major major theme in sovereignty is a major major theme in sovereignty is a major major theme in the book of Exodus, not just Genesis, the book of Exodus, not just Genesis, the book of Exodus, not just Genesis, not just the story of Joseph, but not just the story of Joseph, but not just the story of Joseph, but continuing in the story of Israel. And continuing in the story of Israel. And continuing in the story of Israel. And you you see it in the story of Job, you you see it in the story of Job, you you see it in the story of Job, especially highlighted in Job 1 and2, especially highlighted in Job 1 and2, especially highlighted in Job 1 and2, but you you also see it in uh the the but you you also see it in uh the the but you you also see it in uh the the story of David numbering the people uh story of David numbering the people uh story of David numbering the people uh which is recorded both in Kings and which is recorded both in Kings and which is recorded both in Kings and Chronicles. So, you know, you know, Chronicles. So, you know, you know, Chronicles. So, you know, you know, Satan was against the the the people and Satan was against the the the people and Satan was against the the the people and so he he moved David to do the census.

so he he moved David to do the census. so he he moved David to do the census. God God God >> right >> right >> right >> moved David to take the census. So which >> moved David to take the census. So which >> moved David to take the census. So which is it? And so the the dynamic of God's is it? And so the the dynamic of God's is it? And so the the dynamic of God's sovereign involvement you also see at sovereign involvement you also see at sovereign involvement you also see at the end of um is it the end of first the end of um is it the end of first the end of um is it the end of first kings with the story of Micaiah uh where kings with the story of Micaiah uh where kings with the story of Micaiah uh where where again God is sovereign in the where again God is sovereign in the where again God is sovereign in the story of Ahab. Uh yeah it's the end of story of Ahab. Uh yeah it's the end of story of Ahab. Uh yeah it's the end of first kings. It's first kings chapter first kings. It's first kings chapter first kings. It's first kings chapter 22. um which is again one of these 22. um which is again one of these 22. um which is again one of these stories where God's sovereignty and stories where God's sovereignty and stories where God's sovereignty and human responsibility interface with one human responsibility interface with one human responsibility interface with one another. It's not that God's sovereignty another. It's not that God's sovereignty another. It's not that God's sovereignty means that we're puppets. It's not that means that we're puppets. It's not that means that we're puppets. It's not that God's sovereignty means that we don't God's sovereignty means that we don't God's sovereignty means that we don't make choices. It's not that God's make choices. It's not that God's make choices. It's not that God's sovereign so it doesn't matter what we sovereign so it doesn't matter what we sovereign so it doesn't matter what we do or think or believe. It's God's do or think or believe. It's God's do or think or believe. It's God's sovereign and we're responsible. And so sovereign and we're responsible. And so sovereign and we're responsible. And so you get that throughout the Bible. Um, you get that throughout the Bible. Um, you get that throughout the Bible. Um, you get it in in in Romans, you get it you get it in in in Romans, you get it you get it in in in Romans, you get it in Ephesians, you get it in the Gospel in Ephesians, you get it in the Gospel in Ephesians, you get it in the Gospel of John. And of John. And of John. And we want our people we want our people we want our people not to be utterly befuddled by that when not to be utterly befuddled by that when not to be utterly befuddled by that when they're reading their Bibles. Um, we they're reading their Bibles. Um, we they're reading their Bibles. Um, we want we want to to help them know how to want we want to to help them know how to want we want to to help them know how to read those things with one another, not read those things with one another, not read those things with one another, not against one another. You know, the the against one another. You know, the the against one another. You know, the the temptation is often to take one idea in temptation is often to take one idea in temptation is often to take one idea in the Bible and play it over against the Bible and play it over against the Bible and play it over against another idea in the Bible. And that's another idea in the Bible. And that's another idea in the Bible. And that's never a good way to read the Bible. H never a good way to read the Bible. H never a good way to read the Bible. H how do those things go together? How

how do those things go together? How how do those things go together? How does how does how does God telling does how does how does God telling does how does how does God telling Micaiah Ahab is going to go up to Ramoth Micaiah Ahab is going to go up to Ramoth Micaiah Ahab is going to go up to Ramoth Gilead and he's going to be killed in a Gilead and he's going to be killed in a Gilead and he's going to be killed in a battle go along with battle go along with battle go along with Micaiah actually imploring Ahab not to Micaiah actually imploring Ahab not to Micaiah actually imploring Ahab not to do that? It's a it's a beautiful picture do that? It's a it's a beautiful picture do that? It's a it's a beautiful picture of God's already told him how it's going of God's already told him how it's going of God's already told him how it's going to shake out, but Micaiah is still to shake out, but Micaiah is still to shake out, but Micaiah is still trying to keep him from making a choice trying to keep him from making a choice trying to keep him from making a choice that's going to lead to his own that's going to lead to his own that's going to lead to his own destruction. And it's a little bit like destruction. And it's a little bit like destruction. And it's a little bit like Jesus in John 13. You were just talking Jesus in John 13. You were just talking Jesus in John 13. You were just talking about Judas. There's this beautiful about Judas. There's this beautiful about Judas. There's this beautiful passage in Calvin's commentary on John passage in Calvin's commentary on John passage in Calvin's commentary on John 13 where he says, you know, Jesus is 13 where he says, you know, Jesus is 13 where he says, you know, Jesus is washing the disciples feet and and you washing the disciples feet and and you washing the disciples feet and and you know, he comes around and who's there? know, he comes around and who's there? know, he comes around and who's there? Judas is there. And Jesus washes Judas Judas is there. And Jesus washes Judas Judas is there. And Jesus washes Judas feet. And Calvin pauses and he makes the feet. And Calvin pauses and he makes the feet. And Calvin pauses and he makes the comment that even though he had already comment that even though he had already comment that even though he had already indicated and you you see it in John 13 indicated and you you see it in John 13 indicated and you you see it in John 13 that the son of predition was going to that the son of predition was going to that the son of predition was going to do what he had appointed been appointed do what he had appointed been appointed do what he had appointed been appointed to do that he was going to be betrayed.

to do that he was going to be betrayed. to do that he was going to be betrayed. He said he he he yet again opened to He said he he he yet again opened to He said he he he yet again opened to Judas the gate of repentance but he Judas the gate of repentance but he Judas the gate of repentance but he would not walk through. And so here's would not walk through. And so here's would not walk through. And so here's here's Jesus opening the gate of here's Jesus opening the gate of here's Jesus opening the gate of repentance to someone who he knows is a repentance to someone who he knows is a repentance to someone who he knows is a reprobate and yet he's opening the gate reprobate and yet he's opening the gate reprobate and yet he's opening the gate of just a beautiful beautiful picture of of just a beautiful beautiful picture of of just a beautiful beautiful picture of that interface between God's sovereignty that interface between God's sovereignty that interface between God's sovereignty and humans human responsibility in the and humans human responsibility in the and humans human responsibility in the Bible. We want our people not to be Bible. We want our people not to be Bible. We want our people not to be surprised by that, disturbed by that, surprised by that, disturbed by that, surprised by that, disturbed by that, befuddled by that. We want them to know, befuddled by that. We want them to know, befuddled by that. We want them to know, okay, this is yet another example in the okay, this is yet another example in the okay, this is yet another example in the Bible about how God's sovereignty Bible about how God's sovereignty Bible about how God's sovereignty relates to human choices and human relates to human choices and human relates to human choices and human desires. And it's important for me to be desires. And it's important for me to be desires. And it's important for me to be able to read the Bible in such a way able to read the Bible in such a way able to read the Bible in such a way that both of those things are true. Both that both of those things are true. Both that both of those things are true. Both of those things go together. They don't of those things go together. They don't of those things go together. They don't contradict one another. And in fact, as contradict one another. And in fact, as contradict one another. And in fact, as you said, they actually bring me you said, they actually bring me you said, they actually bring me confidence in this world. Uh because I confidence in this world. Uh because I confidence in this world. Uh because I can't do something that is going to can't do something that is going to can't do something that is going to thwart the decreedal will of God.

thwart the decreedal will of God. thwart the decreedal will of God. >> Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. And as we as we >> Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. And as we as we >> Yeah. Abs. Absolutely. And as we as we teach on these things to our people, we teach on these things to our people, we teach on these things to our people, we don't have to use highulutin jargon. Um don't have to use highulutin jargon. Um don't have to use highulutin jargon. Um I think we can just talk about the fact I think we can just talk about the fact I think we can just talk about the fact that God that God that God choreographs. choreographs. choreographs. God can choreograph what he doesn't God can choreograph what he doesn't God can choreograph what he doesn't approve. Everyone in our church needs to approve. Everyone in our church needs to approve. Everyone in our church needs to understand that basic fact. It's understand that basic fact. It's understand that basic fact. It's difficult to reconcile. It's difficult difficult to reconcile. It's difficult difficult to reconcile. It's difficult to understand. But I think part of to understand. But I think part of to understand. But I think part of Christian maturity is seeing what the Christian maturity is seeing what the Christian maturity is seeing what the Bible teaches and emphasizes and and Bible teaches and emphasizes and and Bible teaches and emphasizes and and learning to hold those things in learning to hold those things in learning to hold those things in tension, to live within the tension, to tension, to live within the tension, to tension, to live within the tension, to embrace the tension rather than explain embrace the tension rather than explain embrace the tension rather than explain it away. Um and in fact most heresies it away. Um and in fact most heresies it away. Um and in fact most heresies are not the result of trying to are not the result of trying to are not the result of trying to complicate what's simple but rather complicate what's simple but rather complicate what's simple but rather trying to simplify what's complicated. trying to simplify what's complicated. trying to simplify what's complicated. Right? And so as as we try to show our Right? And so as as we try to show our Right? And so as as we try to show our people that this is true from scripture people that this is true from scripture people that this is true from scripture it we can say hey it's something you it we can say hey it's something you it we can say hey it's something you even understand from the dynamic of even understand from the dynamic of even understand from the dynamic of literature. You don't read the literature. You don't read the literature. You don't read the Chronicles of Narnia and see the white Chronicles of Narnia and see the white Chronicles of Narnia and see the white witch turning Mr. tumbness to stone and witch turning Mr. tumbness to stone and witch turning Mr. tumbness to stone and think, "Geez, CS Lewis is a jerk." No, think, "Geez, CS Lewis is a jerk." No, think, "Geez, CS Lewis is a jerk." No, you you understand that there is the you you understand that there is the you you understand that there is the ultimate author over the story and there ultimate author over the story and there ultimate author over the story and there are real actions within the story that are real actions within the story that are real actions within the story that have moral agency, moral culpability.

have moral agency, moral culpability. have moral agency, moral culpability. Johnny Ericson Tatada, hero of ours, um Johnny Ericson Tatada, hero of ours, um Johnny Ericson Tatada, hero of ours, um her her her episode on when she joined us for the episode on when she joined us for the episode on when she joined us for the everyday pastor, it's still maybe my everyday pastor, it's still maybe my everyday pastor, it's still maybe my favorite one we've done. Um, but she's favorite one we've done. Um, but she's favorite one we've done. Um, but she's been a quadripolgic for over 60 years. been a quadripolgic for over 60 years. been a quadripolgic for over 60 years. And she once said, "God sometimes And she once said, "God sometimes And she once said, "God sometimes permits what he hates to accomplish what permits what he hates to accomplish what permits what he hates to accomplish what he loves." And it's that kind of he loves." And it's that kind of he loves." And it's that kind of teaching that is actually going to teaching that is actually going to teaching that is actually going to stabilize our people and prepare our stabilize our people and prepare our stabilize our people and prepare our people for when the sky goes black. So, people for when the sky goes black. So, people for when the sky goes black. So, Leig, talk a little bit about how a high Leig, talk a little bit about how a high Leig, talk a little bit about how a high view of God's sovereignty can help our view of God's sovereignty can help our view of God's sovereignty can help our people in particular situations in the people in particular situations in the people in particular situations in the hospital dealing with uh crippling hospital dealing with uh crippling hospital dealing with uh crippling anxiety, anxiety, anxiety, like things like that. like things like that. like things like that. >> Well, to to to know that we are in the >> Well, to to to know that we are in the >> Well, to to to know that we are in the hands of not just a sovereign, but a hands of not just a sovereign, but a hands of not just a sovereign, but a good and a loving God. And I think that good and a loving God. And I think that good and a loving God. And I think that for me, Matt, that was key. I I I knew for me, Matt, that was key. I I I knew for me, Matt, that was key. I I I knew that I was a sinner. I I knew that I that I was a sinner. I I knew that I that I was a sinner. I I knew that I deserve judgment. I knew that I deserve deserve judgment. I knew that I deserve deserve judgment. I knew that I deserve condemnation. I knew that salvation was condemnation. I knew that salvation was condemnation. I knew that salvation was a gift of God's mercy. You didn't you a gift of God's mercy. You didn't you a gift of God's mercy. You didn't you didn't have to convince me of that. I I didn't have to convince me of that. I I didn't have to convince me of that. I I I was there with you. When you then I was there with you. When you then I was there with you. When you then teach me that God is sovereign from the teach me that God is sovereign from the teach me that God is sovereign from the Bible, I don't think of God as an Bible, I don't think of God as an Bible, I don't think of God as an arbitrary desperate. He's still the good arbitrary desperate. He's still the good arbitrary desperate. He's still the good and loving God who saved me from my sin.

and loving God who saved me from my sin. and loving God who saved me from my sin. So the sovereign God is the good and So the sovereign God is the good and So the sovereign God is the good and loving and gracious father. And is there loving and gracious father. And is there loving and gracious father. And is there anybody in the world that I would rather anybody in the world that I would rather anybody in the world that I would rather everything be in the hands of? No. everything be in the hands of? No. everything be in the hands of? No. There's there any human being, however There's there any human being, however There's there any human being, however good and benided? No. I would I would good and benided? No. I would I would good and benided? No. I would I would want it in his hands. Um and and so many want it in his hands. Um and and so many want it in his hands. Um and and so many hymns that we sing celebrate this truth. hymns that we sing celebrate this truth. hymns that we sing celebrate this truth. What air my God ordains is right. that What air my God ordains is right. that What air my God ordains is right. that old beautiful hymn is is be still my old beautiful hymn is is be still my old beautiful hymn is is be still my soul, the Lord is on your side. Um soul, the Lord is on your side. Um soul, the Lord is on your side. Um there's so many um God moves in a there's so many um God moves in a there's so many um God moves in a mysterious way his wonders to perform mysterious way his wonders to perform mysterious way his wonders to perform his he uh you know he plants his his he uh you know he plants his his he uh you know he plants his footsteps in the sea and rides upon the footsteps in the sea and rides upon the footsteps in the sea and rides upon the storm this foundation how firm you know storm this foundation how firm you know storm this foundation how firm you know we just go on and on about the himnity we just go on and on about the himnity we just go on and on about the himnity that we sing that is celebrating this that we sing that is celebrating this that we sing that is celebrating this reality. What does that say to a person reality. What does that say to a person reality. What does that say to a person in the hospital? I just just this last in the hospital? I just just this last in the hospital? I just just this last week um one of my colleagues son is back week um one of my colleagues son is back week um one of my colleagues son is back in the hospital in ER in Pattisburg, in the hospital in ER in Pattisburg, in the hospital in ER in Pattisburg, Mississippi for the second time in 3 Mississippi for the second time in 3 Mississippi for the second time in 3 weeks. He has gone through years of weeks. He has gone through years of weeks. He has gone through years of struggling with leukemia and it struggling with leukemia and it struggling with leukemia and it terrified us when he was back in the terrified us when he was back in the terrified us when he was back in the hospital. Oh no, has the leukemia come hospital. Oh no, has the leukemia come hospital. Oh no, has the leukemia come back? Praise God. No, it hasn't. But his back? Praise God. No, it hasn't. But his back? Praise God. No, it hasn't. But his system has been weakened by all those system has been weakened by all those system has been weakened by all those years of treatment for the leukemia. So, years of treatment for the leukemia. So, years of treatment for the leukemia. So, he's susceptible to everything all the he's susceptible to everything all the he's susceptible to everything all the way down to stomach viruses. But that way down to stomach viruses. But that way down to stomach viruses. But that family's comfort in knowing God's

family's comfort in knowing God's family's comfort in knowing God's sovereign rule over his life, over his sovereign rule over his life, over his sovereign rule over his life, over his body, over everything is incalculable. body, over everything is incalculable. body, over everything is incalculable. They they will testify, you know, would They they will testify, you know, would They they will testify, you know, would they have chosen for their child to have they have chosen for their child to have they have chosen for their child to have this struggle with leukemia? No. Do do this struggle with leukemia? No. Do do this struggle with leukemia? No. Do do they not care when they see their son they not care when they see their son they not care when they see their son suffering under not only the the malady suffering under not only the the malady suffering under not only the the malady but the treatment and then the the the but the treatment and then the the the but the treatment and then the the the consequences of the treatment and all consequences of the treatment and all consequences of the treatment and all the stuff that comes along with it? No. the stuff that comes along with it? No. the stuff that comes along with it? No. Their hearts are for him. But does it Their hearts are for him. But does it Their hearts are for him. But does it comfort them that God is in control? comfort them that God is in control? comfort them that God is in control? Absolutely it does. And I I I do see Absolutely it does. And I I I do see Absolutely it does. And I I I do see occasionally some Christians I think occasionally some Christians I think occasionally some Christians I think they're really trying to protect God. they're really trying to protect God. they're really trying to protect God. They'll try and push God away from They'll try and push God away from They'll try and push God away from circumstances like that. Oh, God didn't circumstances like that. Oh, God didn't circumstances like that. Oh, God didn't have anything to do with this. And and have anything to do with this. And and have anything to do with this. And and what I tell them is, you know, that what I tell them is, you know, that what I tell them is, you know, that situation of suffering that you're situation of suffering that you're situation of suffering that you're talking about may be a life defining talking about may be a life defining talking about may be a life defining situation for you or for your family. situation for you or for your family. situation for you or for your family. You don't want God in the middle of You don't want God in the middle of You don't want God in the middle of that. You you want to push God away from that. You you want to push God away from that. You you want to push God away from that. You want you want God involved in that. You want you want God involved in that. You want you want God involved in that. That may be one of the most that. That may be one of the most that. That may be one of the most significant things about your life. I significant things about your life. I significant things about your life. I want God right down in the middle of want God right down in the middle of want God right down in the middle of that. And praise God, my Bible tells me that. And praise God, my Bible tells me that. And praise God, my Bible tells me that he is all the way down to the hairs that he is all the way down to the hairs that he is all the way down to the hairs on my head. and he he's looking out for on my head. and he he's looking out for on my head. and he he's looking out for sparrows and he's he's minutely involved sparrows and he's he's minutely involved sparrows and he's he's minutely involved in everything. That's a tremendous in everything. That's a tremendous in everything. That's a tremendous comfort to me. That that's not something comfort to me. That that's not something comfort to me. That that's not something that oppresses me. That's something that that oppresses me. That's something that that oppresses me. That's something that sets me free to breathe and say, I can't sets me free to breathe and say, I can't sets me free to breathe and say, I can't control this situation that I'm in. But

control this situation that I'm in. But control this situation that I'm in. But I do know that my father who loves me is I do know that my father who loves me is I do know that my father who loves me is in charge. And he's got purposes in this in charge. And he's got purposes in this in charge. And he's got purposes in this that he may or may not ever disclose to that he may or may not ever disclose to that he may or may not ever disclose to me. But I know that he's got a good me. But I know that he's got a good me. But I know that he's got a good reason for what he's doing. reason for what he's doing. reason for what he's doing. >> And as you mentioned earlier, the >> And as you mentioned earlier, the >> And as you mentioned earlier, the promise in Romans 8:28 is he'll work all promise in Romans 8:28 is he'll work all promise in Romans 8:28 is he'll work all things together for our good. Not that things together for our good. Not that things together for our good. Not that the situations themselves are good. the situations themselves are good. the situations themselves are good. That's right. Being in the hospital as a That's right. Being in the hospital as a That's right. Being in the hospital as a kid with leukemia is not good. And nor kid with leukemia is not good. And nor kid with leukemia is not good. And nor do Christians have to act like it is. I do Christians have to act like it is. I do Christians have to act like it is. I think sometimes we can fall into a kind think sometimes we can fall into a kind think sometimes we can fall into a kind of stoicism which says, "My of stoicism which says, "My of stoicism which says, "My circumstances don't affect me. I'm not circumstances don't affect me. I'm not circumstances don't affect me. I'm not going to let my cir circumstances affect going to let my cir circumstances affect going to let my cir circumstances affect me. No, Christianity, that's stoicism. me. No, Christianity, that's stoicism. me. No, Christianity, that's stoicism. Christianity says my circumstances won't Christianity says my circumstances won't Christianity says my circumstances won't define me, right? define me, right? define me, right? >> They won't control me. And also, I'm not >> They won't control me. And also, I'm not >> They won't control me. And also, I'm not going to survive if God's not in the going to survive if God's not in the going to survive if God's not in the middle of it. I need a big God and a middle of it. I need a big God and a middle of it. I need a big God and a sovereign God and a wise God and a good sovereign God and a wise God and a good sovereign God and a wise God and a good God. And that's why it's so important to God. And that's why it's so important to God. And that's why it's so important to teach our people who this God is so that teach our people who this God is so that teach our people who this God is so that whatever my God ordains is right is not whatever my God ordains is right is not whatever my God ordains is right is not just a slogan, but they know who the God just a slogan, but they know who the God just a slogan, but they know who the God is that we're talking about. You know, is that we're talking about. You know, is that we're talking about. You know, Johnny, when when when we talked with Johnny, when when when we talked with Johnny, when when when we talked with Johnny, that that's what came out so Johnny, that that's what came out so Johnny, that that's what came out so clearly with her. And she had that she clearly with her. And she had that she clearly with her. And she had that she wrestled with that, too. I mean, she wrestled with that, too. I mean, she wrestled with that, too. I mean, she told us that that, you know, she was mad told us that that, you know, she was mad told us that that, you know, she was mad and and frustrated and and she had to and and frustrated and and she had to and and frustrated and and she had to work through that this is bad news, this

work through that this is bad news, this work through that this is bad news, this is true news, this is good news sort of is true news, this is good news sort of is true news, this is good news sort of arc that you talked about and it now it arc that you talked about and it now it arc that you talked about and it now it is it it is woven into into every fiber is it it is woven into into every fiber is it it is woven into into every fiber of her being. You know, she can't she of her being. You know, she can't she of her being. You know, she can't she can't say a word where that doesn't come can't say a word where that doesn't come can't say a word where that doesn't come out and it and it comes out out and it and it comes out out and it and it comes out experientially. So, I guess as a pastor, experientially. So, I guess as a pastor, experientially. So, I guess as a pastor, I'm thinking of that person, Matt. I'm I'm thinking of that person, Matt. I'm I'm thinking of that person, Matt. I'm I'm not just up there trying to win a I'm not just up there trying to win a I'm not just up there trying to win a theological argument. That's right. I'm theological argument. That's right. I'm theological argument. That's right. I'm I'm thinking of that person. How am I I'm thinking of that person. How am I I'm thinking of that person. How am I going to help them see just how big the going to help them see just how big the going to help them see just how big the God of the Bible is? Because in the God of the Bible is? Because in the God of the Bible is? Because in the Bible, so often seasons of personal Bible, so often seasons of personal Bible, so often seasons of personal revival revival revival begin with a fresh sight of God. And you begin with a fresh sight of God. And you begin with a fresh sight of God. And you think of how that happens with Abraham think of how that happens with Abraham think of how that happens with Abraham in Genesis 17. You know, Abraham is a in Genesis 17. You know, Abraham is a in Genesis 17. You know, Abraham is a Genesis 16 is not one of Abraham's high Genesis 16 is not one of Abraham's high Genesis 16 is not one of Abraham's high points. I mean, it's a bad bad. He has points. I mean, it's a bad bad. He has points. I mean, it's a bad bad. He has he has given up on God's plan. He's gone he has given up on God's plan. He's gone he has given up on God's plan. He's gone along with with Sarah on this plan to along with with Sarah on this plan to along with with Sarah on this plan to have a child through Hagar. It's blown have a child through Hagar. It's blown have a child through Hagar. It's blown up in his face and her face and in up in his face and her face and in up in his face and her face and in everybody's face. And then he just kind everybody's face. And then he just kind everybody's face. And then he just kind of washes his hands of it and sends of washes his hands of it and sends of washes his hands of it and sends Hagar and Ishmael out to the wilderness.

Hagar and Ishmael out to the wilderness. Hagar and Ishmael out to the wilderness. You are thinking, you know, Abraham, You are thinking, you know, Abraham, You are thinking, you know, Abraham, what are you thinking, man? It's a bad what are you thinking, man? It's a bad what are you thinking, man? It's a bad bad scene. Well, Genesis 17:1, you know, bad scene. Well, Genesis 17:1, you know, bad scene. Well, Genesis 17:1, you know, somewhere 12, 13 years later, God shows somewhere 12, 13 years later, God shows somewhere 12, 13 years later, God shows up for a conversation with Abraham, and up for a conversation with Abraham, and up for a conversation with Abraham, and he starts off just by saying, Abraham, he starts off just by saying, Abraham, he starts off just by saying, Abraham, I'm God Almighty. And it's it's like, I'm God Almighty. And it's it's like, I'm God Almighty. And it's it's like, Abraham, you've forgotten who I am. You Abraham, you've forgotten who I am. You Abraham, you've forgotten who I am. You you've forgotten that I am God the all you've forgotten that I am God the all you've forgotten that I am God the all powerful, and I want to reintroduce powerful, and I want to reintroduce powerful, and I want to reintroduce myself to you. And that begins a season myself to you. And that begins a season myself to you. And that begins a season of revival for him. Same thing with Job. of revival for him. Same thing with Job. of revival for him. Same thing with Job. You know, Job at the end of the book You know, Job at the end of the book You know, Job at the end of the book says, you know, I I had heard of you, says, you know, I I had heard of you, says, you know, I I had heard of you, but now I've seen you. And that happens but now I've seen you. And that happens but now I've seen you. And that happens so often. Think of Moses, you know, not so often. Think of Moses, you know, not so often. Think of Moses, you know, not only the burning bush story, but even only the burning bush story, but even only the burning bush story, but even Exodus 34 after the sin of the golden Exodus 34 after the sin of the golden Exodus 34 after the sin of the golden calf. And Moses says, "Show me your calf. And Moses says, "Show me your calf. And Moses says, "Show me your glory." In Exodus 33. And then in in in glory." In Exodus 33. And then in in in glory." In Exodus 33. And then in in in God showing him his glory in Exodus 34 God showing him his glory in Exodus 34 God showing him his glory in Exodus 34 is I am God gracious and compassionate is I am God gracious and compassionate is I am God gracious and compassionate forgiving iniquity, transgression, and forgiving iniquity, transgression, and forgiving iniquity, transgression, and sin. Um and and just let me just sin. Um and and just let me just sin. Um and and just let me just introduce myself to you again. So part introduce myself to you again. So part introduce myself to you again. So part of what I want to do when I teach the of what I want to do when I teach the of what I want to do when I teach the sovereignty of God is let me introduce sovereignty of God is let me introduce sovereignty of God is let me introduce you to your God again. He's a lot bigger you to your God again. He's a lot bigger you to your God again. He's a lot bigger than you think he is. And cuz all of us than you think he is. And cuz all of us than you think he is. And cuz all of us are tempted, even those of us who are tempted, even those of us who are tempted, even those of us who believe in God's sovereignty, to think believe in God's sovereignty, to think believe in God's sovereignty, to think too small thoughts of God, right?

too small thoughts of God, right? too small thoughts of God, right? >> And so we need to be our eyes need to be >> And so we need to be our eyes need to be >> And so we need to be our eyes need to be lifted up again to just how big he is lifted up again to just how big he is lifted up again to just how big he is because that puts into proportion because that puts into proportion because that puts into proportion whatever it is that we're going through. whatever it is that we're going through. whatever it is that we're going through. Because normally the way it is, the Because normally the way it is, the Because normally the way it is, the things that we're going through are things that we're going through are things that we're going through are overwhelming us. They seem bigger than overwhelming us. They seem bigger than overwhelming us. They seem bigger than anything in the world. And there's anything in the world. And there's anything in the world. And there's nothing that gives perspective than nothing that gives perspective than nothing that gives perspective than showing God is a lot bigger than this showing God is a lot bigger than this showing God is a lot bigger than this thing that you're going through. thing that you're going through. thing that you're going through. >> At the beginning, you mentioned hearing >> At the beginning, you mentioned hearing >> At the beginning, you mentioned hearing about reformed theology, some of your about reformed theology, some of your about reformed theology, some of your students coming into contact with it in students coming into contact with it in students coming into contact with it in the '9s and I think into the 2000s, the '9s and I think into the 2000s, the '9s and I think into the 2000s, especially post 911, we started to see especially post 911, we started to see especially post 911, we started to see what came to be called the reformed what came to be called the reformed what came to be called the reformed resurgence or the the young restless resurgence or the the young restless resurgence or the the young restless reformed. And there's of course a lot in reformed. And there's of course a lot in reformed. And there's of course a lot in those years with various leaders and those years with various leaders and those years with various leaders and things that happened, a lot to lament. things that happened, a lot to lament. things that happened, a lot to lament. Um, but some people I think are too Um, but some people I think are too Um, but some people I think are too quick to dismiss the fruit that did come quick to dismiss the fruit that did come quick to dismiss the fruit that did come about as a result of that awakening in about as a result of that awakening in about as a result of that awakening in the church. And I think one indisputable the church. And I think one indisputable the church. And I think one indisputable fruit of the reformed resurgence is the fruit of the reformed resurgence is the fruit of the reformed resurgence is the tens of thousands of pastors, not to tens of thousands of pastors, not to tens of thousands of pastors, not to mention ordinary Christians who just mention ordinary Christians who just mention ordinary Christians who just assume these things now in their assume these things now in their assume these things now in their churches, churches, churches, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Um and it's not as foreign of a concept >> Um and it's not as foreign of a concept >> Um and it's not as foreign of a concept as it used to be to your as it used to be to your as it used to be to your >> and that's a that's a glorious >> and that's a that's a glorious >> and that's a that's a glorious >> and I see it all over the world, Matt. >> and I see it all over the world, Matt. >> and I see it all over the world, Matt. And and it and what I love is it doesn't And and it and what I love is it doesn't And and it and what I love is it doesn't come from one stream. It's not the come from one stream. It's not the come from one stream. It's not the product of one particular author uh or product of one particular author uh or product of one particular author uh or influencer. It's it's it's it's coming influencer. It's it's it's it's coming influencer. It's it's it's it's coming from there are a lot of voices from there are a lot of voices from there are a lot of voices testifying to it. And it I think it testifying to it. And it I think it testifying to it. And it I think it actually goes all the way back to the actually goes all the way back to the actually goes all the way back to the sort of the battle for the Bible period sort of the battle for the Bible period sort of the battle for the Bible period of of in the 1970s what so many of the of of in the 1970s what so many of the of of in the 1970s what so many of the people that were defending a high view people that were defending a high view people that were defending a high view of scripture were people with the kind of scripture were people with the kind of scripture were people with the kind of view of God that we're talking about. of view of God that we're talking about. of view of God that we're talking about. You think of Francis Schaefer. You think You think of Francis Schaefer. You think You think of Francis Schaefer. You think of John Scott, you think of of um RC of John Scott, you think of of um RC of John Scott, you think of of um RC Sproul, you think of Ji Packer, you can Sproul, you think of Ji Packer, you can Sproul, you think of Ji Packer, you can go down the list of these guys that were go down the list of these guys that were go down the list of these guys that were defending the Bible, defending the Bible, defending the Bible, they had a high view of God. And I they had a high view of God. And I they had a high view of God. And I actually think you have to have a high actually think you have to have a high actually think you have to have a high view of God to have a high view of view of God to have a high view of view of God to have a high view of scripture. That when when you have the scripture. That when when you have the scripture. That when when you have the confidence in the sovereignty of God, confidence in the sovereignty of God, confidence in the sovereignty of God, you can have confidence in the word that you can have confidence in the word that you can have confidence in the word that he's given us. And and what happened I he's given us. And and what happened I he's given us. And and what happened I think in the 1970s is people who weren't think in the 1970s is people who weren't think in the 1970s is people who weren't familiar with themes like election or familiar with themes like election or familiar with themes like election or predestination or the sovereignty of God predestination or the sovereignty of God predestination or the sovereignty of God necessarily in those terms heard those necessarily in those terms heard those necessarily in those terms heard those teachers expounding scripture with a teachers expounding scripture with a teachers expounding scripture with a reverence for scripture and with a reverence for scripture and with a reverence for scripture and with a desire to see people come to faith in desire to see people come to faith in desire to see people come to faith in Christ but also with an exceedingly high Christ but also with an exceedingly high Christ but also with an exceedingly high view of God's sovereignty and salvation.

view of God's sovereignty and salvation. view of God's sovereignty and salvation. And they started thinking, I'm thinking And they started thinking, I'm thinking And they started thinking, I'm thinking of Jim Boyce is another name that you of Jim Boyce is another name that you of Jim Boyce is another name that you could throw in there. They started could throw in there. They started could throw in there. They started thinking, okay, this this sounds thinking, okay, this this sounds thinking, okay, this this sounds right. It sounds biblical. It they're right. It sounds biblical. It they're right. It sounds biblical. It they're they're arguing this from the text of they're arguing this from the text of they're arguing this from the text of scripture. Maybe maybe this is something scripture. Maybe maybe this is something scripture. Maybe maybe this is something I should consider. And I I meet it I should consider. And I I meet it I should consider. And I I meet it around the world today. And I can't go around the world today. And I can't go around the world today. And I can't go anywhere where I don't find churches, anywhere where I don't find churches, anywhere where I don't find churches, church plants, missionary works, young church plants, missionary works, young church plants, missionary works, young people in churches, whether it's South people in churches, whether it's South people in churches, whether it's South Africa or South America or the Pacific Africa or South America or the Pacific Africa or South America or the Pacific Rim, the the Mid East, Europe, Rim, the the Mid East, Europe, Rim, the the Mid East, Europe, everywhere I go where there are young everywhere I go where there are young everywhere I go where there are young people that are attracted to this to people that are attracted to this to people that are attracted to this to this truth. So, it was I think you're this truth. So, it was I think you're this truth. So, it was I think you're right. It wasn't just a phase that we right. It wasn't just a phase that we right. It wasn't just a phase that we went through in the, you know, in the went through in the, you know, in the went through in the, you know, in the 2000s. It it it's something that has 2000s. It it it's something that has 2000s. It it it's something that has been bubbling for more than 50 years been bubbling for more than 50 years been bubbling for more than 50 years maybe in in our world and it's it's maybe in in our world and it's it's maybe in in our world and it's it's still out there despite all the stuff still out there despite all the stuff still out there despite all the stuff we've gone through in the last 15 or 20 we've gone through in the last 15 or 20 we've gone through in the last 15 or 20 years. It is still out there. And you're years. It is still out there. And you're years. It is still out there. And you're right. I mean when when I was a right. I mean when when I was a right. I mean when when I was a teenager, teenager, teenager, none of my Baptist friends in none of my Baptist friends in none of my Baptist friends in Greenville, South Carolina would have Greenville, South Carolina would have Greenville, South Carolina would have had the inkling of what Calvinism was.

had the inkling of what Calvinism was. had the inkling of what Calvinism was. And if they did, they thought it was And if they did, they thought it was And if they did, they thought it was bad. That is not the case anymore. bad. That is not the case anymore. bad. That is not the case anymore. There's not that kind there's an ability There's not that kind there's an ability There's not that kind there's an ability to at least have a conversation about to at least have a conversation about to at least have a conversation about those things where there wouldn't have those things where there wouldn't have those things where there wouldn't have been 50 years ago. And I that's a good been 50 years ago. And I that's a good been 50 years ago. And I that's a good thing as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. thing as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. thing as far as I'm concerned. Yeah. Absolutely. And just to bring things Absolutely. And just to bring things Absolutely. And just to bring things full circle, uh Charles Hodgej once said full circle, uh Charles Hodgej once said full circle, uh Charles Hodgej once said that the doctrines of grace humble a man that the doctrines of grace humble a man that the doctrines of grace humble a man without degrading him and exalt a man without degrading him and exalt a man without degrading him and exalt a man without inflating him. And I think if without inflating him. And I think if without inflating him. And I think if we're going to lead our churches well, we're going to lead our churches well, we're going to lead our churches well, then we ourselves need to be humbled then we ourselves need to be humbled then we ourselves need to be humbled over and over again by God's word over and over again by God's word over and over again by God's word because otherwise we're going to get the because otherwise we're going to get the because otherwise we're going to get the theology right, theology right, theology right, >> but get the culture wrong. >> but get the culture wrong. >> but get the culture wrong. >> And and we we don't want right doctrine >> And and we we don't want right doctrine >> And and we we don't want right doctrine without a a culture that flows out of without a a culture that flows out of without a a culture that flows out of it. And let me say that for me that that it. And let me say that for me that that it. And let me say that for me that that has been key what you just said even has been key what you just said even has been key what you just said even when we were we were talking the other when we were we were talking the other when we were we were talking the other day about evangelism and I thought you day about evangelism and I thought you day about evangelism and I thought you know one of the things I loved about Rod know one of the things I loved about Rod know one of the things I loved about Rod Stewarts and David Sinclair and Max Stewarts and David Sinclair and Max Stewarts and David Sinclair and Max Styles and Mark Dever and we could go Styles and Mark Dever and we could go Styles and Mark Dever and we could go down a list of these guys that I got to down a list of these guys that I got to down a list of these guys that I got to see share the gospel. They cared about see share the gospel. They cared about see share the gospel. They cared about doctrine. They cared about their Bibles.

doctrine. They cared about their Bibles. doctrine. They cared about their Bibles. They cared about theology. They they had They cared about theology. They they had They cared about theology. They they had a high view of God. But they also had a a high view of God. But they also had a a high view of God. But they also had a very evident love for people. And that very evident love for people. And that very evident love for people. And that that is a powerful combination when you that is a powerful combination when you that is a powerful combination when you love truth and you love people. And love truth and you love people. And love truth and you love people. And it'll show in how you teach and talk it'll show in how you teach and talk it'll show in how you teach and talk about this doctrine because you're not about this doctrine because you're not about this doctrine because you're not you're not there just I'm not there. My you're not there just I'm not there. My you're not there just I'm not there. My goal in life is not to be right. You goal in life is not to be right. You goal in life is not to be right. You know, I'm I'm right, you're wrong. Uh know, I'm I'm right, you're wrong. Uh know, I'm I'm right, you're wrong. Uh it's I I I want to serve your heart. I I it's I I I want to serve your heart. I I it's I I I want to serve your heart. I I want you to glorify and enjoy God want you to glorify and enjoy God want you to glorify and enjoy God forever. I want you to love Jesus more. forever. I want you to love Jesus more. forever. I want you to love Jesus more. I want you to have bigger views of God. I want you to have bigger views of God. I want you to have bigger views of God. I want you to be more rooted in the word I want you to be more rooted in the word I want you to be more rooted in the word of God. And so the way I talk to you of God. And so the way I talk to you of God. And so the way I talk to you about these things, it's going to show. about these things, it's going to show. about these things, it's going to show. So you're right. I Who is it that says So you're right. I Who is it that says So you're right. I Who is it that says an arrogant Calvinist is a contradiction an arrogant Calvinist is a contradiction an arrogant Calvinist is a contradiction in terms. But sadly, those exist, right? in terms. But sadly, those exist, right? in terms. But sadly, those exist, right? And so we need to mortify that if that's And so we need to mortify that if that's And so we need to mortify that if that's us. You're right. Humility is something us. You're right. Humility is something us. You're right. Humility is something that this ought to be humility that this ought to be humility that this ought to be humility cultivating. It should be. And if it's cultivating. It should be. And if it's cultivating. It should be. And if it's not, the truth is going bad on us.

not, the truth is going bad on us. not, the truth is going bad on us. Right. Absolutely. Well, we hope this Right. Absolutely. Well, we hope this Right. Absolutely. Well, we hope this episode has been helpful as we think episode has been helpful as we think episode has been helpful as we think about the fact that theology and about the fact that theology and about the fact that theology and doctrine actually make life simpler. Uh doctrine actually make life simpler. Uh doctrine actually make life simpler. Uh it's not doctrine that complicates life. it's not doctrine that complicates life. it's not doctrine that complicates life. It's the ignorance of doctrine. And so, It's the ignorance of doctrine. And so, It's the ignorance of doctrine. And so, we want to hold up a high view of a good we want to hold up a high view of a good we want to hold up a high view of a good and gracious God. If you think this and gracious God. If you think this and gracious God. If you think this conversation would be helpful to a conversation would be helpful to a conversation would be helpful to a friend, please share it with them so we friend, please share it with them so we friend, please share it with them so we can continue helping pastors find fresh can continue helping pastors find fresh can continue helping pastors find fresh joy in the work of ministry.