How Your Church Witnesses to the World (with Bob Thune) [Gospelbound - Ep. 178]

There actually is a [music] freedom that There actually is a [music] freedom that makes you truly free. There's a freedom makes you truly free. There's a freedom makes you truly free. There's a freedom that can actually set you free even from that can actually set you free even from that can actually set you free even from the bondage [music] that you have to the bondage [music] that you have to the bondage [music] that you have to your own desires and your own your own desires and your own your own desires and your own selfishness and your own preferences. selfishness and your own preferences. selfishness and your own preferences. And Jesus can [music] actually set you And Jesus can [music] actually set you And Jesus can [music] actually set you free from self and set you free for the free from self and set you free for the free from self and set you free for the love [music] of God and the love of love [music] of God and the love of love [music] of God and the love of others. And that's a deeper, it's a more others. And that's a deeper, it's a more others. And that's a deeper, it's a more eternal, it's a richer, and it's a it's eternal, it's a richer, and it's a it's eternal, it's a richer, and it's a it's a more profound kind of freedom. [music] >> When we receive applications for fellows >> When we receive applications for fellows at the Keller Center for Cultural at the Keller Center for Cultural at the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics, we ask them one question. Apologetics, we ask them one question. Apologetics, we ask them one question. Uh we ask them, "What one thing should Uh we ask them, "What one thing should Uh we ask them, "What one thing should Christians do right now to introduce Christians do right now to introduce Christians do right now to introduce their neighbors to Jesus?" Uh not their neighbors to Jesus?" Uh not their neighbors to Jesus?" Uh not everybody likes this question because it everybody likes this question because it everybody likes this question because it can seem very reductionistic. And it's can seem very reductionistic. And it's can seem very reductionistic. And it's not that we think that there's only one not that we think that there's only one not that we think that there's only one answer. It's just we want them to answer. It's just we want them to answer. It's just we want them to identify what priority stands above all identify what priority stands above all identify what priority stands above all others. And last year when we were others. And last year when we were others. And last year when we were adding a new class of fellows, we were adding a new class of fellows, we were adding a new class of fellows, we were surprised. Everybody gave us the same surprised. Everybody gave us the same surprised. Everybody gave us the same answer. Um they talked about the public answer. Um they talked about the public answer. Um they talked about the public witness of gathered Christians in the witness of gathered Christians in the witness of gathered Christians in the church. Now this could have been for a church. Now this could have been for a church. Now this could have been for a number of reasons. Maybe they were number of reasons. Maybe they were number of reasons. Maybe they were responding to negative press about the responding to negative press about the responding to negative press about the church going back at least 25 years to church going back at least 25 years to church going back at least 25 years to the Catholic abuse scandal at the same the Catholic abuse scandal at the same the Catholic abuse scandal at the same time when the internet became time when the internet became time when the internet became ubiquitous. Or maybe they were ubiquitous. Or maybe they were ubiquitous. Or maybe they were expressing renewed appreciation for the expressing renewed appreciation for the expressing renewed appreciation for the gathered church after the co era gathered church after the co era gathered church after the co era shutdowns and public disorder. Either shutdowns and public disorder. Either shutdowns and public disorder. Either way, they were going back to biblical a

way, they were going back to biblical a way, they were going back to biblical a biblical concept rooted in Israel's biblical concept rooted in Israel's biblical concept rooted in Israel's testimony to the nations and also in the testimony to the nations and also in the testimony to the nations and also in the early church of the book of acts where early church of the book of acts where early church of the book of acts where they are told in acts 20 acts 2 they they are told in acts 20 acts 2 they they are told in acts 20 acts 2 they found favor with all. Bob Thoon is a found favor with all. Bob Thoon is a found favor with all. Bob Thoon is a fellow for the Keller Center and writes fellow for the Keller Center and writes fellow for the Keller Center and writes about this ecclesial apologetics in a about this ecclesial apologetics in a about this ecclesial apologetics in a chapter for our new book, The Gospel chapter for our new book, The Gospel chapter for our new book, The Gospel After Christendom, an introduction to After Christendom, an introduction to After Christendom, an introduction to cultural apologetics, published by cultural apologetics, published by cultural apologetics, published by Zervan Reflective. Bob is also a Zervan Reflective. Bob is also a Zervan Reflective. Bob is also a featured teacher in an exciting new featured teacher in an exciting new featured teacher in an exciting new video small group curriculum called video small group curriculum called video small group curriculum called Making Sense of Us, published by the Making Sense of Us, published by the Making Sense of Us, published by the Gospel Coalition and Keller Center. Bob Gospel Coalition and Keller Center. Bob Gospel Coalition and Keller Center. Bob session which is recorded against the session which is recorded against the session which is recorded against the backdrop of the Statue of Liberty in New backdrop of the Statue of Liberty in New backdrop of the Statue of Liberty in New York City covers the cultural narrative York City covers the cultural narrative York City covers the cultural narrative we tell each other in the modern west we tell each other in the modern west we tell each other in the modern west about liberty and we believe that this about liberty and we believe that this about liberty and we believe that this curriculum can help you especially young curriculum can help you especially young curriculum can help you especially young adults to both evangelize and edify at adults to both evangelize and edify at adults to both evangelize and edify at the same time. And so when you watch and the same time. And so when you watch and the same time. And so when you watch and study with other church members and even study with other church members and even study with other church members and even non-Christians non-Christians non-Christians you can learn together about the Bible's you can learn together about the Bible's you can learn together about the Bible's better story about liberty which we live better story about liberty which we live better story about liberty which we live out together in the church. So to out together in the church. So to out together in the church. So to discuss more on all this, Bob joins me discuss more on all this, Bob joins me discuss more on all this, Bob joins me on Gospel Bound. Great to have you, Bob.

on Gospel Bound. Great to have you, Bob. on Gospel Bound. Great to have you, Bob. >> Hey, thanks. It's good to be here. >> Hey, thanks. It's good to be here. >> Hey, thanks. It's good to be here. >> All right, let's just start Bob with >> All right, let's just start Bob with >> All right, let's just start Bob with Ecclesial Apologetics. Uh, what did you Ecclesial Apologetics. Uh, what did you Ecclesial Apologetics. Uh, what did you learn from Lesie Nubigan and how was his learn from Lesie Nubigan and how was his learn from Lesie Nubigan and how was his teaching foreign to what you had teaching foreign to what you had teaching foreign to what you had experienced early in life in the church? experienced early in life in the church? experienced early in life in the church? >> Well, yeah. I I came across Lesie >> Well, yeah. I I came across Lesie >> Well, yeah. I I came across Lesie Nubigan after seminary when I was Nubigan after seminary when I was Nubigan after seminary when I was planting a church. So, somehow I was planting a church. So, somehow I was planting a church. So, somehow I was never familiar with his writing or his never familiar with his writing or his never familiar with his writing or his thought. And as I was starting to plant thought. And as I was starting to plant thought. And as I was starting to plant our church and was trying to read on our church and was trying to read on our church and was trying to read on myology, especially in church planting, myology, especially in church planting, myology, especially in church planting, I don't know, someone hand me handed me I don't know, someone hand me handed me I don't know, someone hand me handed me some of Nubigan's work. And I was really some of Nubigan's work. And I was really some of Nubigan's work. And I was really provoked because provoked because provoked because some of your listeners and viewers will some of your listeners and viewers will some of your listeners and viewers will be familiar, but Nubigan left England in be familiar, but Nubigan left England in be familiar, but Nubigan left England in 1936, went and was a missionary in India 1936, went and was a missionary in India 1936, went and was a missionary in India for 40 years, came back to England and for 40 years, came back to England and for 40 years, came back to England and realized that it was post-Christian. And realized that it was post-Christian. And realized that it was post-Christian. And that surprised him. And so he wrote a that surprised him. And so he wrote a that surprised him. And so he wrote a lot about the need for the church to lot about the need for the church to lot about the need for the church to have what he called a missionary have what he called a missionary have what he called a missionary encounter with modern western culture. encounter with modern western culture. encounter with modern western culture. And so he was one of the first people to And so he was one of the first people to And so he was one of the first people to start talking about what does it mean start talking about what does it mean start talking about what does it mean for the church to have a missionary for the church to have a missionary for the church to have a missionary posture toward the culture around us.

posture toward the culture around us. posture toward the culture around us. That honestly was new for me. The That honestly was new for me. The That honestly was new for me. The churches I grew up in. I never heard churches I grew up in. I never heard churches I grew up in. I never heard about the church as a missionary people. about the church as a missionary people. about the church as a missionary people. I think there was sort of these still I think there was sort of these still I think there was sort of these still this assumption that we live in a mostly this assumption that we live in a mostly this assumption that we live in a mostly Christian culture. And you know to use a Christian culture. And you know to use a Christian culture. And you know to use a phrase from Tim Keller that sharing the phrase from Tim Keller that sharing the phrase from Tim Keller that sharing the gospel is kind of just rearranging the gospel is kind of just rearranging the gospel is kind of just rearranging the furniture that's already there in furniture that's already there in furniture that's already there in people's worldviews or their minds. And people's worldviews or their minds. And people's worldviews or their minds. And so Nigan really challenged me that if so Nigan really challenged me that if so Nigan really challenged me that if we're in a post-Christendom sort of we're in a post-Christendom sort of we're in a post-Christendom sort of world um we can't make the same set of world um we can't make the same set of world um we can't make the same set of assumptions and we have to think like assumptions and we have to think like assumptions and we have to think like missionaries about engaging our own uh missionaries about engaging our own uh missionaries about engaging our own uh culture. And so my earliest experience culture. And so my earliest experience culture. And so my earliest experience in ministry had been in campus ministry in ministry had been in campus ministry in ministry had been in campus ministry and I had been doing uh you know leading and I had been doing uh you know leading and I had been doing uh you know leading Bible studies in fraternity houses and Bible studies in fraternity houses and Bible studies in fraternity houses and stuff like that. And I realized, oh stuff like that. And I realized, oh stuff like that. And I realized, oh yeah, what I saw in campus ministry was yeah, what I saw in campus ministry was yeah, what I saw in campus ministry was I would share the gospel with people. I would share the gospel with people. I would share the gospel with people. Sometimes they would come to faith in Sometimes they would come to faith in Sometimes they would come to faith in Jesus. The Holy Spirit did some really Jesus. The Holy Spirit did some really Jesus. The Holy Spirit did some really beautiful things in the lives of people. beautiful things in the lives of people. beautiful things in the lives of people. What I failed to do was to get them What I failed to do was to get them What I failed to do was to get them connected to a local church. And it connected to a local church. And it connected to a local church. And it turned out that over time many of them turned out that over time many of them turned out that over time many of them didn't connect to in a meaningful way to didn't connect to in a meaningful way to didn't connect to in a meaningful way to Christian community. And so, uh, it what Christian community. And so, uh, it what Christian community. And so, uh, it what what Nubian said that really resonated what Nubian said that really resonated what Nubian said that really resonated with me is that people need to not just with me is that people need to not just with me is that people need to not just hear the gospel, but they need to see it hear the gospel, but they need to see it hear the gospel, but they need to see it lived out in a community. They need they lived out in a community. They need they lived out in a community. They need they need to see what it looks like when a need to see what it looks like when a need to see what it looks like when a people live their lives in a way that people live their lives in a way that people live their lives in a way that reflects the gospel. He he talked about reflects the gospel. He he talked about reflects the gospel. He he talked about the church as the only hermeneutic of the church as the only hermeneutic of the church as the only hermeneutic of the gospel, the the the place that sort the gospel, the the the place that sort the gospel, the the the place that sort of fleshes it out for people. And that of fleshes it out for people. And that of fleshes it out for people. And that was provocative to me and and yeah, was provocative to me and and yeah, was provocative to me and and yeah, really different from, I guess, how I really different from, I guess, how I really different from, I guess, how I had um conceived of the church earlier had um conceived of the church earlier had um conceived of the church earlier in my life. Is Omaha and Nebraska in my life. Is Omaha and Nebraska in my life. Is Omaha and Nebraska post-Christian?

post-Christian? post-Christian? >> Surprisingly, yeah. I mean, I think most >> Surprisingly, yeah. I mean, I think most >> Surprisingly, yeah. I mean, I think most of North America is post-Christian. I of North America is post-Christian. I of North America is post-Christian. I realize it doesn't feel that way in some realize it doesn't feel that way in some realize it doesn't feel that way in some places. The odd thing about the Midwest places. The odd thing about the Midwest places. The odd thing about the Midwest is that we are uh conservative valued in is that we are uh conservative valued in is that we are uh conservative valued in the sense that people value hard work the sense that people value hard work the sense that people value hard work and, you know, local community and stuff and, you know, local community and stuff and, you know, local community and stuff like that. But yeah, it's just as like that. But yeah, it's just as like that. But yeah, it's just as post-Christian as most uh most of the post-Christian as most uh most of the post-Christian as most uh most of the places that that feel to people more places that that feel to people more places that that feel to people more like, you know, the the more the the like, you know, the the more the the like, you know, the the more the the secular parts of America. What do you secular parts of America. What do you secular parts of America. What do you attribute that to? attribute that to? attribute that to? >> I think it's well I mean here's what >> I think it's well I mean here's what >> I think it's well I mean here's what Nubigan said. He said he used this Nubigan said. He said he used this Nubigan said. He said he used this phrase he called modern western culture. phrase he called modern western culture. phrase he called modern western culture. And what he said is that's it's it's And what he said is that's it's it's And what he said is that's it's it's what we know as sort of what we know as sort of what we know as sort of post-enlightenment post-enlightenment post-enlightenment liberal rationalism. And what he said is liberal rationalism. And what he said is liberal rationalism. And what he said is it's the most pervasive culture. It's it's the most pervasive culture. It's it's the most pervasive culture. It's actually everywhere that that the actually everywhere that that the actually everywhere that that the western world has colonialized. And so western world has colonialized. And so western world has colonialized. And so he said you still have sort of local he said you still have sort of local he said you still have sort of local expressions of who people are but but expressions of who people are but but expressions of who people are but but modern western culture is so pervasive modern western culture is so pervasive modern western culture is so pervasive and you know think about it as and you know think about it as and you know think about it as capitalism combined with individualism capitalism combined with individualism capitalism combined with individualism combined with sort of uh you know free combined with sort of uh you know free combined with sort of uh you know free market economy all all these things are market economy all all these things are market economy all all these things are so pervasively spread around the world so pervasively spread around the world so pervasively spread around the world that it doesn't matter whether you live that it doesn't matter whether you live that it doesn't matter whether you live in Omaha or in New York City or in in Omaha or in New York City or in in Omaha or in New York City or in London or in Tokyo most of the world has London or in Tokyo most of the world has London or in Tokyo most of the world has sort of embraced this kind of thinking sort of embraced this kind of thinking sort of embraced this kind of thinking and so I think that's why it's just that and so I think that's why it's just that and so I think that's why it's just that it's it's sort of a monolithic reality it's it's sort of a monolithic reality it's it's sort of a monolithic reality that shapes all of us no matter where we that shapes all of us no matter where we that shapes all of us no matter where we find ourselves.

find ourselves. find ourselves. >> Again, we're mentioning here how you >> Again, we're mentioning here how you >> Again, we're mentioning here how you founded and still lead now Quormo Church founded and still lead now Quormo Church founded and still lead now Quormo Church in Omaha, Nebraska. When I think about in Omaha, Nebraska. When I think about in Omaha, Nebraska. When I think about ecclesial apologetics though, Bob, as ecclesial apologetics though, Bob, as ecclesial apologetics though, Bob, as pastors, we know more than anyone else pastors, we know more than anyone else pastors, we know more than anyone else about the dark side of a church's inner about the dark side of a church's inner about the dark side of a church's inner workings and certainly even our own workings and certainly even our own workings and certainly even our own souls, our own hearts. How can you still souls, our own hearts. How can you still souls, our own hearts. How can you still believe in ecclesial apologetics given believe in ecclesial apologetics given believe in ecclesial apologetics given what you know about the church? what you know about the church? what you know about the church? >> The dark side of a church's inner >> The dark side of a church's inner >> The dark side of a church's inner workings sounds pretty sinister. Uh workings sounds pretty sinister. Uh workings sounds pretty sinister. Uh which I would just say, well, a church which I would just say, well, a church which I would just say, well, a church is made up of human beings and so it it is made up of human beings and so it it is made up of human beings and so it it reflects the same flaws and faults that reflects the same flaws and faults that reflects the same flaws and faults that human beings carry with them in their human beings carry with them in their human beings carry with them in their work in any kind of institution. And so work in any kind of institution. And so work in any kind of institution. And so certainly certainly certainly >> it is an imperfect place the church is. >> it is an imperfect place the church is. >> it is an imperfect place the church is. Um and sometimes it really is Um and sometimes it really is Um and sometimes it really is dysfunctional and and hurts people. But dysfunctional and and hurts people. But dysfunctional and and hurts people. But I believe in ecclesial apologetics. I I I believe in ecclesial apologetics. I I I believe in ecclesial apologetics. I I believe that the people of God are an believe that the people of God are an believe that the people of God are an important expression of apologetics in important expression of apologetics in important expression of apologetics in our world because quite simply it's the our world because quite simply it's the our world because quite simply it's the story that we've seen over and over story that we've seen over and over story that we've seen over and over again in 20 years of planting and again in 20 years of planting and again in 20 years of planting and sustaining a church here in the middle sustaining a church here in the middle sustaining a church here in the middle of America. I mean just the stories of of America. I mean just the stories of of America. I mean just the stories of people that we see come to Christ over people that we see come to Christ over people that we see come to Christ over and over again. There's always two and over again. There's always two and over again. There's always two pieces to it. One is I heard the gospel pieces to it. One is I heard the gospel pieces to it. One is I heard the gospel in a compelling way. Maybe that was in a compelling way. Maybe that was in a compelling way. Maybe that was through a sermon. Maybe it was through a through a sermon. Maybe it was through a through a sermon. Maybe it was through a conversation with a friend. Maybe it was conversation with a friend. Maybe it was conversation with a friend. Maybe it was through uh some of the classes that we through uh some of the classes that we through uh some of the classes that we run. But I heard the gospel. But then run. But I heard the gospel. But then run. But I heard the gospel. But then secondly, I saw it lived out. I I I was secondly, I saw it lived out. I I I was secondly, I saw it lived out. I I I was around long enough to see people and how

around long enough to see people and how around long enough to see people and how faith in Jesus changed the way they faith in Jesus changed the way they faith in Jesus changed the way they thought about marriage, singleness, thought about marriage, singleness, thought about marriage, singleness, money, sexuality, vocation. And over money, sexuality, vocation. And over money, sexuality, vocation. And over time, the sort of power of seeing what time, the sort of power of seeing what time, the sort of power of seeing what the gospel does in a people was the gospel does in a people was the gospel does in a people was instrumental. And that's just the story instrumental. And that's just the story instrumental. And that's just the story of almost everyone that we baptize and of almost everyone that we baptize and of almost everyone that we baptize and see come to faith in our church. And so see come to faith in our church. And so see come to faith in our church. And so it's it's been so um so much the story it's it's been so um so much the story it's it's been so um so much the story of people that have come to faith in our of people that have come to faith in our of people that have come to faith in our church that it's deepened my conviction church that it's deepened my conviction church that it's deepened my conviction of the very things that New Began and of the very things that New Began and of the very things that New Began and others have talked about which is that others have talked about which is that others have talked about which is that the the church the visible imperfect the the church the visible imperfect the the church the visible imperfect community of people orienting their life community of people orienting their life community of people orienting their life around the gospel repenting and around the gospel repenting and around the gospel repenting and believing and growing that that is in believing and growing that that is in believing and growing that that is in fact a critical part of doing any kind fact a critical part of doing any kind fact a critical part of doing any kind of meaningful apologetics in our world. of meaningful apologetics in our world. of meaningful apologetics in our world. I know you agree, Bob, that we don't I know you agree, Bob, that we don't I know you agree, Bob, that we don't offer ourselves but Christ and offer ourselves but Christ and offer ourselves but Christ and inevitably we're going to to fall short. inevitably we're going to to fall short. inevitably we're going to to fall short. So, I'm wondering why does it matter if So, I'm wondering why does it matter if So, I'm wondering why does it matter if we have what Ray Ortland describes as as we have what Ray Ortland describes as as we have what Ray Ortland describes as as gospel culture? If it's the message of a gospel culture? If it's the message of a gospel culture? If it's the message of a perfect savior that saves sinners, not perfect savior that saves sinners, not perfect savior that saves sinners, not our good behavior, then why why are we our good behavior, then why why are we our good behavior, then why why are we talking about this witness of the talking about this witness of the talking about this witness of the gathered church? Well, I absolutely gathered church? Well, I absolutely gathered church? Well, I absolutely think it's the the message of a perfect think it's the the message of a perfect think it's the the message of a perfect savior that saves people. I also think savior that saves people. I also think savior that saves people. I also think that message transforms people. Um, if that message transforms people. Um, if that message transforms people. Um, if you if you told the early church, if you you if you told the early church, if you you if you told the early church, if you told the apostles, hey, that the message told the apostles, hey, that the message told the apostles, hey, that the message is the only thing that matters, not good is the only thing that matters, not good is the only thing that matters, not good behavior, I think you'd end up deleting behavior, I think you'd end up deleting behavior, I think you'd end up deleting about half of your New Testament.

about half of your New Testament. about half of your New Testament. Because if you think about what the New Because if you think about what the New Because if you think about what the New Testament epistles are and what the Testament epistles are and what the Testament epistles are and what the apostles are doing as they're writing to apostles are doing as they're writing to apostles are doing as they're writing to the early churches, you know, you have the early churches, you know, you have the early churches, you know, you have texts like Colossians 3, put to death texts like Colossians 3, put to death texts like Colossians 3, put to death what is earthly in you. You have texts what is earthly in you. You have texts what is earthly in you. You have texts like Philippians 2, right? Work out your like Philippians 2, right? Work out your like Philippians 2, right? Work out your salvation with fear and trembling. Uh salvation with fear and trembling. Uh salvation with fear and trembling. Uh first Peter or second Peter, make every first Peter or second Peter, make every first Peter or second Peter, make every effort to supplement your faith with effort to supplement your faith with effort to supplement your faith with virtue. So there there are all these virtue. So there there are all these virtue. So there there are all these exhortations in the New Testament where exhortations in the New Testament where exhortations in the New Testament where what you see the apostles doing is what you see the apostles doing is what you see the apostles doing is saying, "Hey, in light of the truth of saying, "Hey, in light of the truth of saying, "Hey, in light of the truth of the gospel, here's how that ought to the gospel, here's how that ought to the gospel, here's how that ought to affect how we relate to one another and affect how we relate to one another and affect how we relate to one another and how we live in the world." So saying how we live in the world." So saying how we live in the world." So saying that salvation is by grace alone through that salvation is by grace alone through that salvation is by grace alone through faith in a perfect savior is absolutely faith in a perfect savior is absolutely faith in a perfect savior is absolutely essential. We don't want to minimize essential. We don't want to minimize essential. We don't want to minimize that. But equally crucial is the longing that. But equally crucial is the longing that. But equally crucial is the longing that Paul expresses in place places like that Paul expresses in place places like that Paul expresses in place places like Galatians 4:19 where he says, you know, Galatians 4:19 where he says, you know, Galatians 4:19 where he says, you know, I want to see Christ formed in you. So I want to see Christ formed in you. So I want to see Christ formed in you. So you mentioned Ray Ortland's observation you mentioned Ray Ortland's observation you mentioned Ray Ortland's observation about gospel doctrine creating a gospel about gospel doctrine creating a gospel about gospel doctrine creating a gospel culture. And I think the way I conceive culture. And I think the way I conceive culture. And I think the way I conceive of that is that gospel doctrine is of that is that gospel doctrine is of that is that gospel doctrine is holding out the truth of the gospel. And holding out the truth of the gospel. And holding out the truth of the gospel. And what gospel culture is is sort of what gospel culture is is sort of what gospel culture is is sort of getting to the beauty and goodness of getting to the beauty and goodness of getting to the beauty and goodness of the gospel. So, you know, all if you the gospel. So, you know, all if you the gospel. So, you know, all if you think about the classical triad of think about the classical triad of think about the classical triad of truth, goodness, and beauty, we want truth, goodness, and beauty, we want truth, goodness, and beauty, we want truth, but we also need to see the truth, but we also need to see the truth, but we also need to see the beauty of how the gospel changes people.

beauty of how the gospel changes people. beauty of how the gospel changes people. And that's part of what's happening when And that's part of what's happening when And that's part of what's happening when we when we think about a church's life we when we think about a church's life we when we think about a church's life together or a gospel culture. That leads together or a gospel culture. That leads together or a gospel culture. That leads us then to considering hospitality. Uh us then to considering hospitality. Uh us then to considering hospitality. Uh this has become a cultural buzzword of this has become a cultural buzzword of this has become a cultural buzzword of late. Um it's a big deal in our public late. Um it's a big deal in our public late. Um it's a big deal in our public school system. our superintendent was school system. our superintendent was school system. our superintendent was just visiting our school talking about just visiting our school talking about just visiting our school talking about how they've transformed so many how they've transformed so many how they've transformed so many different things um to be more different things um to be more different things um to be more hospitable. What then is unique about hospitable. What then is unique about hospitable. What then is unique about the kind of hospitality that we as the kind of hospitality that we as the kind of hospitality that we as Christians can and should offer the Christians can and should offer the Christians can and should offer the world? When I think about hospitality, world? When I think about hospitality, world? When I think about hospitality, um maybe the simplest way of describing um maybe the simplest way of describing um maybe the simplest way of describing it is uh welcoming the outsider or it is uh welcoming the outsider or it is uh welcoming the outsider or making room for the outsider. My wife making room for the outsider. My wife making room for the outsider. My wife and I have a a college student living and I have a a college student living and I have a a college student living with us right now for a few months. And with us right now for a few months. And with us right now for a few months. And you know, so hospitality just we're just you know, so hospitality just we're just you know, so hospitality just we're just making space for her in our house and making space for her in our house and making space for her in our house and welcoming her to to live there for a welcoming her to to live there for a welcoming her to to live there for a little while. Um that's that's what the little while. Um that's that's what the little while. Um that's that's what the church does when it practices church does when it practices church does when it practices hospitality, right? It's making room for hospitality, right? It's making room for hospitality, right? It's making room for outsiders to find their way among us. outsiders to find their way among us. outsiders to find their way among us. Whether they're outsiders because they Whether they're outsiders because they Whether they're outsiders because they don't believe the gospel, whether don't believe the gospel, whether don't believe the gospel, whether they're just new to the city and they're just new to the city and they're just new to the city and they're, you know, trying to connect to they're, you know, trying to connect to they're, you know, trying to connect to a local community of people, whatever it a local community of people, whatever it a local community of people, whatever it might be. What I think is interesting might be. What I think is interesting might be. What I think is interesting and again Nubigan is so helpful in and again Nubigan is so helpful in and again Nubigan is so helpful in talking about this is Christianity is a talking about this is Christianity is a talking about this is Christianity is a non-coercive religion. So we can't we non-coercive religion. So we can't we non-coercive religion. So we can't we can't make Christians at gunpoint, can't make Christians at gunpoint, can't make Christians at gunpoint, right? We can't force anyone to become a right? We can't force anyone to become a right? We can't force anyone to become a Christian. Our posture is one of Christian. Our posture is one of Christian. Our posture is one of listening and persuasion. The gospel the listening and persuasion. The gospel the listening and persuasion. The gospel the apostles in the New Testament are apostles in the New Testament are apostles in the New Testament are preaching the gospel and persuading

preaching the gospel and persuading preaching the gospel and persuading people that Jesus is the Messiah and people that Jesus is the Messiah and people that Jesus is the Messiah and that they should give their lives to him that they should give their lives to him that they should give their lives to him and follow him. That's the same thing and follow him. That's the same thing and follow him. That's the same thing the church does. And it requires the church does. And it requires the church does. And it requires dialogue. It requires listening and dialogue. It requires listening and dialogue. It requires listening and conversation and persuasion. And so conversation and persuasion. And so conversation and persuasion. And so that's the kind of hospitality I think that's the kind of hospitality I think that's the kind of hospitality I think that that the church ought to offer and that that the church ought to offer and that that the church ought to offer and needs to offer is this. It's not less needs to offer is this. It's not less needs to offer is this. It's not less convictional. It's not less about convictional. It's not less about convictional. It's not less about proclaiming the gospel, but it's about proclaiming the gospel, but it's about proclaiming the gospel, but it's about doing so with a a hospitable sort of doing so with a a hospitable sort of doing so with a a hospitable sort of posture that says, "Hey, come and sit posture that says, "Hey, come and sit posture that says, "Hey, come and sit and converse with us and let us hear and converse with us and let us hear and converse with us and let us hear where are you coming from? What do you where are you coming from? What do you where are you coming from? What do you think about God and Christ and think about God and Christ and think about God and Christ and scripture?" and creating space where scripture?" and creating space where scripture?" and creating space where those kinds of meaningful conversations those kinds of meaningful conversations those kinds of meaningful conversations can happen. And those conversations can happen. And those conversations can happen. And those conversations obviously can happen in one-on-one uh obviously can happen in one-on-one uh obviously can happen in one-on-one uh settings. They can happen in small settings. They can happen in small settings. They can happen in small groups and living rooms. They can even groups and living rooms. They can even groups and living rooms. They can even happen in a pretty large room of people. happen in a pretty large room of people. happen in a pretty large room of people. Um I I think that that's the beauty of Um I I think that that's the beauty of Um I I think that that's the beauty of sort of what gospel hospitality looks sort of what gospel hospitality looks sort of what gospel hospitality looks like is making room for people to find like is making room for people to find like is making room for people to find their way among us and then eventually their way among us and then eventually their way among us and then eventually to sort of find their way to seeing how to sort of find their way to seeing how to sort of find their way to seeing how the gospel changes everything. guess the gospel changes everything. guess the gospel changes everything. guess what would be the alternative? What what what would be the alternative? What what what would be the alternative? What what does it mean when we're not making room does it mean when we're not making room does it mean when we're not making room for outsiders? Where does that go wrong?

for outsiders? Where does that go wrong? for outsiders? Where does that go wrong? >> I think you end up having um ingrown >> I think you end up having um ingrown >> I think you end up having um ingrown churches, right? Churches that end up churches, right? Churches that end up churches, right? Churches that end up sort of it it's we're still committed to sort of it it's we're still committed to sort of it it's we're still committed to the scriptures and to Christ, but we the scriptures and to Christ, but we the scriptures and to Christ, but we fail to be connecting in meaningful ways fail to be connecting in meaningful ways fail to be connecting in meaningful ways with our neighbors or with people who with our neighbors or with people who with our neighbors or with people who are not Christians yet. And so that the are not Christians yet. And so that the are not Christians yet. And so that the church just takes on a culture that church just takes on a culture that church just takes on a culture that lacks that hospitality component. And lacks that hospitality component. And lacks that hospitality component. And what that does is it impoverishes us in what that does is it impoverishes us in what that does is it impoverishes us in two ways. One, um, it keeps us from two ways. One, um, it keeps us from two ways. One, um, it keeps us from having to continue growing in our own having to continue growing in our own having to continue growing in our own sanctification to learn how to relate to sanctification to learn how to relate to sanctification to learn how to relate to all different kinds of people. And two, all different kinds of people. And two, all different kinds of people. And two, it sort of shrinks the the missionary it sort of shrinks the the missionary it sort of shrinks the the missionary possibilities of our church, right? It possibilities of our church, right? It possibilities of our church, right? It shrinks the kinds of people who will shrinks the kinds of people who will shrinks the kinds of people who will find their ways among us and and the find their ways among us and and the find their ways among us and and the invitations we have to to make the invitations we have to to make the invitations we have to to make the gospel known to them. I was just gospel known to them. I was just gospel known to them. I was just thinking, we just did a a four-week thinking, we just did a a four-week thinking, we just did a a four-week class at our church on the history of class at our church on the history of class at our church on the history of the Reformation that our teaching pastor the Reformation that our teaching pastor the Reformation that our teaching pastor and myself taught and uh we had a bunch and myself taught and uh we had a bunch and myself taught and uh we had a bunch of people about a hundred people came to of people about a hundred people came to of people about a hundred people came to the class and about a half a dozen of the class and about a half a dozen of the class and about a half a dozen of them brought along with them family them brought along with them family them brought along with them family members who either are currently Roman members who either are currently Roman members who either are currently Roman Catholic or coming out of a Roman Catholic or coming out of a Roman Catholic or coming out of a Roman Catholic background and just trying to Catholic background and just trying to Catholic background and just trying to sort out what what is the Reformation sort out what what is the Reformation sort out what what is the Reformation and how is it different from this and how is it different from this and how is it different from this tradition that I've grown up in. So what tradition that I've grown up in. So what tradition that I've grown up in. So what I saw in that is I think that in that I saw in that is I think that in that I saw in that is I think that in that classroom we created enough of a classroom we created enough of a classroom we created enough of a hospitable posture that we could be hospitable posture that we could be hospitable posture that we could be convictional about saying, "Hey, we're convictional about saying, "Hey, we're convictional about saying, "Hey, we're Protestants. We we believe in the Protestants. We we believe in the Protestants. We we believe in the critiques and the the challenges the critiques and the the challenges the critiques and the the challenges the Reformation was offering, but also we Reformation was offering, but also we Reformation was offering, but also we can do that in a room where people who

can do that in a room where people who can do that in a room where people who are convictionally Roman Catholic don't are convictionally Roman Catholic don't are convictionally Roman Catholic don't feel ostracized, don't feel talked down feel ostracized, don't feel talked down feel ostracized, don't feel talked down to, don't feel defensive." And that's a to, don't feel defensive." And that's a to, don't feel defensive." And that's a key part of how I have learned to key part of how I have learned to key part of how I have learned to practice hospitality is just how how practice hospitality is just how how practice hospitality is just how how would I talk about this or speak about would I talk about this or speak about would I talk about this or speak about this with people in the room who this with people in the room who this with people in the room who disagree. And that's such a foundational disagree. And that's such a foundational disagree. And that's such a foundational part of persuasion in any context. But part of persuasion in any context. But part of persuasion in any context. But the church needs to recover that in the church needs to recover that in the church needs to recover that in significant ways. Where do you see it significant ways. Where do you see it significant ways. Where do you see it usually go wrong in churches? Is it usually go wrong in churches? Is it usually go wrong in churches? Is it because they're they want to be so because they're they want to be so because they're they want to be so focused on community that they think focused on community that they think focused on community that they think then that they can't really afford to be then that they can't really afford to be then that they can't really afford to be focused on on outsiders or is it because focused on on outsiders or is it because focused on on outsiders or is it because they develop an us versus them they develop an us versus them they develop an us versus them mentality? we are the people who are mentality? we are the people who are mentality? we are the people who are righteous inside and we want to remain righteous inside and we want to remain righteous inside and we want to remain unstained by the world. Where do you see unstained by the world. Where do you see unstained by the world. Where do you see it normally go wrong in churches? it normally go wrong in churches? it normally go wrong in churches? >> I think that us versus them thing isn't >> I think that us versus them thing isn't >> I think that us versus them thing isn't just a church thing. I think our whole just a church thing. I think our whole just a church thing. I think our whole culture is kind of defined by that culture is kind of defined by that culture is kind of defined by that spirit right now. And so it's so hard spirit right now. And so it's so hard spirit right now. And so it's so hard for that not to find its way into the for that not to find its way into the for that not to find its way into the church. I don't think Christians are church. I don't think Christians are church. I don't think Christians are necessarily more prone to that than necessarily more prone to that than necessarily more prone to that than anyone else. But I do think that, you anyone else. But I do think that, you anyone else. But I do think that, you know, some some of us feel embattled. um know, some some of us feel embattled. um know, some some of us feel embattled. um you know I think it was it was it Hunter you know I think it was it was it Hunter you know I think it was it was it Hunter or George Marsen who talked about or George Marsen who talked about or George Marsen who talked about evangelicals as embattled and thriving evangelicals as embattled and thriving evangelicals as embattled and thriving you know years ago and so that idea of you know years ago and so that idea of you know years ago and so that idea of being embattled we feel a little bit being embattled we feel a little bit being embattled we feel a little bit like man there's a lot of things in the like man there's a lot of things in the like man there's a lot of things in the culture that sort of are stacked against culture that sort of are stacked against culture that sort of are stacked against sort of basic Christian virtue and so sort of basic Christian virtue and so sort of basic Christian virtue and so people feel a need to sort of have a people feel a need to sort of have a people feel a need to sort of have a little bit of a defensive posture little bit of a defensive posture little bit of a defensive posture sometimes and then I think yeah just the sometimes and then I think yeah just the sometimes and then I think yeah just the way that everything around us is way that everything around us is way that everything around us is polarized so I think what often works polarized so I think what often works polarized so I think what often works against a hospitable posture is yeah against a hospitable posture is yeah against a hospitable posture is yeah probably that sense of so much of our

probably that sense of so much of our probably that sense of so much of our lives feels like it's us versus them. lives feels like it's us versus them. lives feels like it's us versus them. Um, and there's a natural a natural Um, and there's a natural a natural Um, and there's a natural a natural instinct to try to sort of like double instinct to try to sort of like double instinct to try to sort of like double down on what's true. And again, what's down on what's true. And again, what's down on what's true. And again, what's true matters deeply and we should care true matters deeply and we should care true matters deeply and we should care uh significantly about that. But I think uh significantly about that. But I think uh significantly about that. But I think we can do that in a way that does not we can do that in a way that does not we can do that in a way that does not lose that sort of gospel hospitality. lose that sort of gospel hospitality. lose that sort of gospel hospitality. >> Christian Smith on uh healed in and >> Christian Smith on uh healed in and >> Christian Smith on uh healed in and thriving. thriving. thriving. >> Anotherologist who I failed. [laughter] >> Anotherologist who I failed. [laughter] >> Anotherologist who I failed. [laughter] >> That's true. if we were going to get to >> That's true. if we were going to get to >> That's true. if we were going to get to him eventually. him eventually. him eventually. >> I I would get there eventually. >> I I would get there eventually. >> I I would get there eventually. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Now, Bob, wasn't the seeker church >> Now, Bob, wasn't the seeker church >> Now, Bob, wasn't the seeker church movement a kind of ecclesial apologetic? movement a kind of ecclesial apologetic? movement a kind of ecclesial apologetic? Um, I mean, you can disagree or explain Um, I mean, you can disagree or explain Um, I mean, you can disagree or explain how it's different. That's what I'm how it's different. That's what I'm how it's different. That's what I'm wondering. How how is this different wondering. How how is this different wondering. How how is this different from what they what they have been doing from what they what they have been doing from what they what they have been doing and still are doing? I think the seeker and still are doing? I think the seeker and still are doing? I think the seeker movement wasn't an ecclesial apologetic movement wasn't an ecclesial apologetic movement wasn't an ecclesial apologetic at all. Um, I would say that whole at all. Um, I would say that whole at all. Um, I would say that whole movement and I was, you know, in my life movement and I was, you know, in my life movement and I was, you know, in my life that was a sort of a 1990s reality in my that was a sort of a 1990s reality in my that was a sort of a 1990s reality in my story. I know there's a lot of churches story. I know there's a lot of churches story. I know there's a lot of churches maybe that still sort of have that maybe that still sort of have that maybe that still sort of have that paradigm, but I think that completely paradigm, but I think that completely paradigm, but I think that completely ignored the thoughtful myology of people ignored the thoughtful myology of people ignored the thoughtful myology of people like Nubigan. What I mean is Nubigan's like Nubigan. What I mean is Nubigan's like Nubigan. What I mean is Nubigan's vision is for the church to be a radical vision is for the church to be a radical vision is for the church to be a radical counterculture where it's it's familiar counterculture where it's it's familiar counterculture where it's it's familiar to people but but radically different.

to people but but radically different. to people but but radically different. He talks about the gospel bringing with He talks about the gospel bringing with He talks about the gospel bringing with it its own plausibility structure where it its own plausibility structure where it its own plausibility structure where it sort of forces you to rethink it sort of forces you to rethink it sort of forces you to rethink everything. He's basically saying, "Hey, everything. He's basically saying, "Hey, everything. He's basically saying, "Hey, the kingdom of God is so upside down the kingdom of God is so upside down the kingdom of God is so upside down from how we think that it ought to it from how we think that it ought to it from how we think that it ought to it ought to confront you in a way that ought to confront you in a way that ought to confront you in a way that makes you have to kind of rethink makes you have to kind of rethink makes you have to kind of rethink everything about how you see reality." I everything about how you see reality." I everything about how you see reality." I think that's a missionary posture for think that's a missionary posture for think that's a missionary posture for the church. I think the seeker movement the church. I think the seeker movement the church. I think the seeker movement was sort of an attempt instead to be to was sort of an attempt instead to be to was sort of an attempt instead to be to flatten that and to be relevant in a way flatten that and to be relevant in a way flatten that and to be relevant in a way that I think didn't hold forth how that I think didn't hold forth how that I think didn't hold forth how countercultural a gospel paradigm is. countercultural a gospel paradigm is. countercultural a gospel paradigm is. And so it again I think it was maybe And so it again I think it was maybe And so it again I think it was maybe rooted in an impulse to be evangelistic. rooted in an impulse to be evangelistic. rooted in an impulse to be evangelistic. But what it ended up doing was But what it ended up doing was But what it ended up doing was trying to be evangelistic by sort of trying to be evangelistic by sort of trying to be evangelistic by sort of buying too many of the assumptions of buying too many of the assumptions of buying too many of the assumptions of modern western culture. And so you modern western culture. And so you modern western culture. And so you didn't have the sort of upside downness didn't have the sort of upside downness didn't have the sort of upside downness of the kingdom of God standing out in in of the kingdom of God standing out in in of the kingdom of God standing out in in a stark enough way. Um, so I would say a stark enough way. Um, so I would say a stark enough way. Um, so I would say that, you know, again, I can't speak for that, you know, again, I can't speak for that, you know, again, I can't speak for every person who was a part of the the every person who was a part of the the every person who was a part of the the seeker movement, but I I think the seeker movement, but I I think the seeker movement, but I I think the myology behind that was certainly not a myology behind that was certainly not a myology behind that was certainly not a a robust myiology that understood the a robust myiology that understood the a robust myiology that understood the logic of the gospel itself and what it logic of the gospel itself and what it logic of the gospel itself and what it means for us to hold that forth in a in means for us to hold that forth in a in means for us to hold that forth in a in a post-christendom kind of world.

a post-christendom kind of world. a post-christendom kind of world. >> Perfect segue there, Bob. Um, so we've >> Perfect segue there, Bob. Um, so we've >> Perfect segue there, Bob. Um, so we've been talking first half here primarily been talking first half here primarily been talking first half here primarily focused on Bob's chapter on ecclesial focused on Bob's chapter on ecclesial focused on Bob's chapter on ecclesial apologetics from our new book, The apologetics from our new book, The apologetics from our new book, The Gospel After Christendom, an Gospel After Christendom, an Gospel After Christendom, an introduction to cultural apologetics. introduction to cultural apologetics. introduction to cultural apologetics. Just uh um really amazing chapter. I Just uh um really amazing chapter. I Just uh um really amazing chapter. I can't think of how many different times can't think of how many different times can't think of how many different times I've already recommended it to people I've already recommended it to people I've already recommended it to people and just got off a call with a Gospel and just got off a call with a Gospel and just got off a call with a Gospel Coalition Regional Chapter in Montana Coalition Regional Chapter in Montana Coalition Regional Chapter in Montana where I was commending this to them. But where I was commending this to them. But where I was commending this to them. But this other project that we're going to this other project that we're going to this other project that we're going to talk about now is making sense of us. talk about now is making sense of us. talk about now is making sense of us. this small group video video curriculum this small group video video curriculum this small group video video curriculum and your session on on liberty filmed and your session on on liberty filmed and your session on on liberty filmed out there on the water in front of the out there on the water in front of the out there on the water in front of the Statue of Liberty. Um I think you set us Statue of Liberty. Um I think you set us Statue of Liberty. Um I think you set us up to be talking about some of those up to be talking about some of those up to be talking about some of those assumptions that have been brought into assumptions that have been brought into assumptions that have been brought into the church instead of having that the church instead of having that the church instead of having that missionary encounter and that missionary encounter and that missionary encounter and that recognizing the way the gospel turns recognizing the way the gospel turns recognizing the way the gospel turns everything upside down. So what is the everything upside down. So what is the everything upside down. So what is the most common and I'm going to go back to most common and I'm going to go back to most common and I'm going to go back to what you were saying from Nigan modern what you were saying from Nigan modern what you were saying from Nigan modern west. What's the most common modern west. What's the most common modern west. What's the most common modern western cultural misconception about western cultural misconception about western cultural misconception about liberty? Probably the simplest way to liberty? Probably the simplest way to liberty? Probably the simplest way to say it is that when we think about say it is that when we think about say it is that when we think about liberty, we think almost entirely in liberty, we think almost entirely in liberty, we think almost entirely in terms of freedom from or what some terms of freedom from or what some terms of freedom from or what some philosophers have called negative philosophers have called negative philosophers have called negative liberty. Right? Liberty is the removal liberty. Right? Liberty is the removal liberty. Right? Liberty is the removal of constraints. It's the removal of of constraints. It's the removal of of constraints. It's the removal of boundaries. It's getting rid of all the boundaries. It's getting rid of all the boundaries. It's getting rid of all the the the things that would hinder me the the things that would hinder me the the things that would hinder me from, you know, doing whatever I want to from, you know, doing whatever I want to from, you know, doing whatever I want to do, being the person I want to be. And do, being the person I want to be. And do, being the person I want to be. And so we tend to think, you know, it makes

so we tend to think, you know, it makes so we tend to think, you know, it makes sense in our national story why that's sense in our national story why that's sense in our national story why that's part of it. Because if you think back to part of it. Because if you think back to part of it. Because if you think back to the American Revolution and to King the American Revolution and to King the American Revolution and to King George and to the Boston Tea Party, George and to the Boston Tea Party, George and to the Boston Tea Party, there's this sense of we want to be free there's this sense of we want to be free there's this sense of we want to be free from the English monarchy. We want to be from the English monarchy. We want to be from the English monarchy. We want to be free from some of the unfair taxation. free from some of the unfair taxation. free from some of the unfair taxation. So there there's this sense that So there there's this sense that So there there's this sense that America's whole story is rooted in America's whole story is rooted in America's whole story is rooted in freedom from and that's an important freedom from and that's an important freedom from and that's an important aspect of what freedom is. But what you aspect of what freedom is. But what you aspect of what freedom is. But what you have is because because all of that is have is because because all of that is have is because because all of that is downstream from the enlightenment and downstream from the enlightenment and downstream from the enlightenment and the enlightenment's conception of the enlightenment's conception of the enlightenment's conception of freedom was almost entirely freedom from freedom was almost entirely freedom from freedom was almost entirely freedom from it was a it was the idea that to be it was a it was the idea that to be it was a it was the idea that to be truly free as an individual you have to truly free as an individual you have to truly free as an individual you have to be liberated from all the possible be liberated from all the possible be liberated from all the possible constraints um from all things that sort constraints um from all things that sort constraints um from all things that sort of would hinder your ability to make of would hinder your ability to make of would hinder your ability to make personal choices about your life. Um personal choices about your life. Um personal choices about your life. Um Stanley Howerws has this famous line uh Stanley Howerws has this famous line uh Stanley Howerws has this famous line uh you know that the the summary of how we you know that the the summary of how we you know that the the summary of how we think about freedom is I have no story think about freedom is I have no story think about freedom is I have no story except the story I chose when I had no except the story I chose when I had no except the story I chose when I had no story. [snorts] Uh it's this idea that I story. [snorts] Uh it's this idea that I story. [snorts] Uh it's this idea that I I am just an autonomous individual I am just an autonomous individual I am just an autonomous individual actor. There's nothing that binds me to actor. There's nothing that binds me to actor. There's nothing that binds me to any other people or to any shared any other people or to any shared any other people or to any shared history or to a family or to a set of history or to a family or to a set of history or to a family or to a set of relationships that can make claims on relationships that can make claims on relationships that can make claims on me. I'm just totally free. And that's me. I'm just totally free. And that's me. I'm just totally free. And that's that's I think the the downside of the that's I think the the downside of the that's I think the the downside of the vision of liberty that most of us have vision of liberty that most of us have vision of liberty that most of us have sort of you know taken in just by virtue sort of you know taken in just by virtue sort of you know taken in just by virtue of being western whether whether you're of being western whether whether you're of being western whether whether you're American or just in part of the broader American or just in part of the broader American or just in part of the broader sort of west all of those concepts of sort of west all of those concepts of sort of west all of those concepts of liberty are very live in in any western liberty are very live in in any western liberty are very live in in any western culture. And so it's that that entire culture. And so it's that that entire culture. And so it's that that entire that vision that freedom is almost that vision that freedom is almost that vision that freedom is almost entirely freedom from and that um that

entirely freedom from and that um that entirely freedom from and that um that seeps into how we think about all kinds seeps into how we think about all kinds seeps into how we think about all kinds of things. How do we understand of things. How do we understand of things. How do we understand Galatians 5:1 then for freedom Christ Galatians 5:1 then for freedom Christ Galatians 5:1 then for freedom Christ has set us free? U wondering here, how has set us free? U wondering here, how has set us free? U wondering here, how does the work of Christ subvert what we does the work of Christ subvert what we does the work of Christ subvert what we talk about all the time at the Keller talk about all the time at the Keller talk about all the time at the Keller Center subvert and then fulfill our Center subvert and then fulfill our Center subvert and then fulfill our cultures narrative of liberty? All cultures narrative of liberty? All cultures narrative of liberty? All right. So you mentioned Galatians 5, you right. So you mentioned Galatians 5, you right. So you mentioned Galatians 5, you know, I think Galatians 5:1, it's for know, I think Galatians 5:1, it's for know, I think Galatians 5:1, it's for freedom that Christ has set us free. freedom that Christ has set us free. freedom that Christ has set us free. Obviously the the conception there in Obviously the the conception there in Obviously the the conception there in the broader argument of Galatians is the broader argument of Galatians is the broader argument of Galatians is that what it's set us free from is this that what it's set us free from is this that what it's set us free from is this sort of religious externalism. You know sort of religious externalism. You know sort of religious externalism. You know Paul talks about you observe days and Paul talks about you observe days and Paul talks about you observe days and months and seasons and years. It's this months and seasons and years. It's this months and seasons and years. It's this sense that religion is about the sense that religion is about the sense that religion is about the externals. And so there's a sense in externals. And so there's a sense in externals. And so there's a sense in which that the freedom of the gospel which that the freedom of the gospel which that the freedom of the gospel sets us free from that. And it's a it's sets us free from that. And it's a it's sets us free from that. And it's a it's an inner it's a it's a more dramatic and an inner it's a it's a more dramatic and an inner it's a it's a more dramatic and more substantial freedom from all of more substantial freedom from all of more substantial freedom from all of those ways that we sort of try to those ways that we sort of try to those ways that we sort of try to measure our religiosity. But I think measure our religiosity. But I think measure our religiosity. But I think it's interesting that a few verses later it's interesting that a few verses later it's interesting that a few verses later then you have Galatians 5:13. then you have Galatians 5:13. then you have Galatians 5:13. Do not use your freedom as an Do not use your freedom as an Do not use your freedom as an opportunity for the flesh, but through opportunity for the flesh, but through opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. So the way that love serve one another. So the way that love serve one another. So the way that the gospel sort of subverts and fulfills the gospel sort of subverts and fulfills the gospel sort of subverts and fulfills that American or Western vision of that American or Western vision of that American or Western vision of freedom uh is this that actually you freedom uh is this that actually you freedom uh is this that actually you can't really be free as long as you're can't really be free as long as you're can't really be free as long as you're only thinking about freedom from because only thinking about freedom from because only thinking about freedom from because you're no matter how free you are from you're no matter how free you are from you're no matter how free you are from external con constraints, you are still external con constraints, you are still external con constraints, you are still a slave to your own passions, desires,

a slave to your own passions, desires, a slave to your own passions, desires, preferences, right? there there's still preferences, right? there there's still preferences, right? there there's still a sense in which you're in bondage to a sense in which you're in bondage to a sense in which you're in bondage to your own inner desires. The more you your own inner desires. The more you your own inner desires. The more you lean into that story that I belong to lean into that story that I belong to lean into that story that I belong to myself, the more you end up living out myself, the more you end up living out myself, the more you end up living out of bondage to self. And so, you know, of bondage to self. And so, you know, of bondage to self. And so, you know, the gospel subverts and critiques that the gospel subverts and critiques that the gospel subverts and critiques that idea of freedom, but then the idea of freedom, but then the idea of freedom, but then the fulfillment aspect would be, but there fulfillment aspect would be, but there fulfillment aspect would be, but there actually is a freedom that makes you actually is a freedom that makes you actually is a freedom that makes you truly free. There's a freedom that can truly free. There's a freedom that can truly free. There's a freedom that can actually set you free even from the the actually set you free even from the the actually set you free even from the the bondage that you have to your own bondage that you have to your own bondage that you have to your own desires and your own selfishness and desires and your own selfishness and desires and your own selfishness and your own preferences. And Jesus can your own preferences. And Jesus can your own preferences. And Jesus can actually set you free from self and set actually set you free from self and set actually set you free from self and set you free for the love of God and the you free for the love of God and the you free for the love of God and the love of others. And that's a deeper, love of others. And that's a deeper, love of others. And that's a deeper, it's a more eternal, it's a richer, and it's a more eternal, it's a richer, and it's a more eternal, it's a richer, and it's a it's a more profound kind of it's a it's a more profound kind of it's a it's a more profound kind of freedom. So I think there's a lot of freedom. So I think there's a lot of freedom. So I think there's a lot of ways you could sort of work out that ways you could sort of work out that ways you could sort of work out that subvert fulfill narrative because subvert fulfill narrative because subvert fulfill narrative because there's so many places that the Bible there's so many places that the Bible there's so many places that the Bible talks about freedom and so many places talks about freedom and so many places talks about freedom and so many places where that sort of needs to critique our where that sort of needs to critique our where that sort of needs to critique our cultural understanding of freedom. But cultural understanding of freedom. But cultural understanding of freedom. But that's that's one is to sort of simplify that's that's one is to sort of simplify that's that's one is to sort of simplify it to say yeah the American story of it to say yeah the American story of it to say yeah the American story of freedom doesn't set you deeply free freedom doesn't set you deeply free freedom doesn't set you deeply free enough but Jesus can. I don't know if enough but Jesus can. I don't know if enough but Jesus can. I don't know if people still use this illustration, Bob.

people still use this illustration, Bob. people still use this illustration, Bob. Um, but people used to always talk about Um, but people used to always talk about Um, but people used to always talk about the supermarket when it would come to the supermarket when it would come to the supermarket when it would come to explaining American culture because that explaining American culture because that explaining American culture because that was more of kind of a cold war thing was more of kind of a cold war thing was more of kind of a cold war thing about the way that American supermarkets about the way that American supermarkets about the way that American supermarkets would have so many different things. would have so many different things. would have so many different things. People be overwhelmed here compared to People be overwhelmed here compared to People be overwhelmed here compared to things in the Eastern block or or things in the Eastern block or or things in the Eastern block or or elsewhere. But I do think it is still an elsewhere. But I do think it is still an elsewhere. But I do think it is still an illustration that illustration that illustration that at our base we believe that happiness at our base we believe that happiness at our base we believe that happiness consists in as you've been saying a consists in as you've been saying a consists in as you've been saying a freedom from obligation but also a freedom from obligation but also a freedom from obligation but also a proliferation of choice. proliferation of choice. proliferation of choice. >> Yeah. Unlimited personal choice. >> Yeah. Unlimited personal choice. >> Yeah. Unlimited personal choice. >> How do we even begin I mean we've been >> How do we even begin I mean we've been >> How do we even begin I mean we've been talking about it in some different ways talking about it in some different ways talking about it in some different ways but take us a little bit deeper. How do but take us a little bit deeper. How do but take us a little bit deeper. How do we dislodge that from our own souls and we dislodge that from our own souls and we dislodge that from our own souls and our own instincts or or how do you see our own instincts or or how do you see our own instincts or or how do you see this playing out in in pastoral this playing out in in pastoral this playing out in in pastoral ministry? because we talk all the time ministry? because we talk all the time ministry? because we talk all the time as what we're trying to do in this as what we're trying to do in this as what we're trying to do in this making sense of us curriculum uh from making sense of us curriculum uh from making sense of us curriculum uh from the Keller Center about how the the Keller Center about how the the Keller Center about how the strongest cultural assumptions are strongest cultural assumptions are strongest cultural assumptions are usually the ones that no one talks about usually the ones that no one talks about usually the ones that no one talks about and this would be an example trying to and this would be an example trying to and this would be an example trying to tell Americans that happiness is not tell Americans that happiness is not tell Americans that happiness is not automatically the result of having more automatically the result of having more automatically the result of having more options is practically inconceivable options is practically inconceivable options is practically inconceivable to us. I think to the the the starting to us. I think to the the the starting to us. I think to the the the starting point for the answer to your question is point for the answer to your question is point for the answer to your question is just say, "Yeah, that's going to be just say, "Yeah, that's going to be just say, "Yeah, that's going to be really difficult." And this is one of really difficult." And this is one of really difficult." And this is one of the reasons why I think pastors and the reasons why I think pastors and the reasons why I think pastors and thoughtful Christians need to uh think thoughtful Christians need to uh think thoughtful Christians need to uh think more deeply about some of these more deeply about some of these more deeply about some of these questions. How does the gospel critique questions. How does the gospel critique questions. How does the gospel critique and how can we dislodge from our own and how can we dislodge from our own and how can we dislodge from our own souls this false assumption we've made

souls this false assumption we've made souls this false assumption we've made that freedom is in unlimited, that freedom is in unlimited, that freedom is in unlimited, unrestricted personal choice and unrestricted personal choice and unrestricted personal choice and autonomy? That's going to be difficult. autonomy? That's going to be difficult. autonomy? That's going to be difficult. You're exactly right because it's, you You're exactly right because it's, you You're exactly right because it's, you know, to use Glenn Scrier's book title, know, to use Glenn Scrier's book title, know, to use Glenn Scrier's book title, it's the air we breathe, right? It's it's the air we breathe, right? It's it's the air we breathe, right? It's just it's how we've learned to think just it's how we've learned to think just it's how we've learned to think about freedom. But I think one thing about freedom. But I think one thing about freedom. But I think one thing that can be helpful is to draw the that can be helpful is to draw the that can be helpful is to draw the connections between places where there's connections between places where there's connections between places where there's shared agreement on societal dysfunction shared agreement on societal dysfunction shared agreement on societal dysfunction and to show how many of those are driven and to show how many of those are driven and to show how many of those are driven by this idea of freedom. So here's a by this idea of freedom. So here's a by this idea of freedom. So here's a couple examples. couple examples. couple examples. In the last two or three years, most In the last two or three years, most In the last two or three years, most people have begun to agree that there's people have begun to agree that there's people have begun to agree that there's a big teen mental health crisis around a big teen mental health crisis around a big teen mental health crisis around smartphones and John [snorts] height and smartphones and John [snorts] height and smartphones and John [snorts] height and others have done such important work on others have done such important work on others have done such important work on that. But what you see there is like that. But what you see there is like that. But what you see there is like okay we have freedom to have to okay we have freedom to have to okay we have freedom to have to communicate at all times in all ways communicate at all times in all ways communicate at all times in all ways with all kinds of people but that with all kinds of people but that with all kinds of people but that freedom is actually creating this really freedom is actually creating this really freedom is actually creating this really negative societal effect where man we negative societal effect where man we negative societal effect where man we see all kinds of mental health concerns. see all kinds of mental health concerns. see all kinds of mental health concerns. And so for for us to be able to connect And so for for us to be able to connect And so for for us to be able to connect the dots that actually there's a place the dots that actually there's a place the dots that actually there's a place where we were told hey if you have a where we were told hey if you have a where we were told hey if you have a phone in your pocket your life will be phone in your pocket your life will be phone in your pocket your life will be so much easier. You can log into your so much easier. You can log into your so much easier. You can log into your bank you can talk to your grandma. You bank you can talk to your grandma. You bank you can talk to your grandma. You can you know you can order plane can you know you can order plane can you know you can order plane tickets. So so much of life will be tickets. So so much of life will be tickets. So so much of life will be easier and simpler and you'll have easier and simpler and you'll have easier and simpler and you'll have infinite personal choice.

infinite personal choice. infinite personal choice. But at what cost, right? Where has that But at what cost, right? Where has that But at what cost, right? Where has that gotten us? Um, another example is the gotten us? Um, another example is the gotten us? Um, another example is the the decline of friendship in America. the decline of friendship in America. the decline of friendship in America. There's so many writers and cultural There's so many writers and cultural There's so many writers and cultural commentators who acknowledge that commentators who acknowledge that commentators who acknowledge that especially among all sectors, but especially among all sectors, but especially among all sectors, but especially among men and young men, especially among men and young men, especially among men and young men, there's such a decline in personal there's such a decline in personal there's such a decline in personal friendship. And to to connect that to friendship. And to to connect that to friendship. And to to connect that to the idea that we've been told that well, the idea that we've been told that well, the idea that we've been told that well, what you need to do is set yourself free what you need to do is set yourself free what you need to do is set yourself free from all anything that is an obligation, from all anything that is an obligation, from all anything that is an obligation, right? And the problem with a good right? And the problem with a good right? And the problem with a good friendship is it is an obligation. and I friendship is it is an obligation. and I friendship is it is an obligation. and I I need to keep up with my friends. They I need to keep up with my friends. They I need to keep up with my friends. They can make demands on my time and on my can make demands on my time and on my can make demands on my time and on my energy. And so to connect this sort of energy. And so to connect this sort of energy. And so to connect this sort of crisis of isolation and the lack of crisis of isolation and the lack of crisis of isolation and the lack of friendship and show how that's a friendship and show how that's a friendship and show how that's a byproduct of this vision of freedom, I byproduct of this vision of freedom, I byproduct of this vision of freedom, I think that can help us as Christians think that can help us as Christians think that can help us as Christians start to identify the fact that yeah, we start to identify the fact that yeah, we start to identify the fact that yeah, we actually don't want to believe that more actually don't want to believe that more actually don't want to believe that more and more freedom always leads to better and more freedom always leads to better and more freedom always leads to better outcomes because sometimes it leads to outcomes because sometimes it leads to outcomes because sometimes it leads to worse outcomes. And it can help to worse outcomes. And it can help to worse outcomes. And it can help to provide a little bit of a a lens through provide a little bit of a a lens through provide a little bit of a a lens through which to be critical of our which to be critical of our which to be critical of our understanding of freedom and hopefully understanding of freedom and hopefully understanding of freedom and hopefully to help our neighbors do that as well. I to help our neighbors do that as well. I to help our neighbors do that as well. I was talking with my neighbors across the was talking with my neighbors across the was talking with my neighbors across the street recently. Um she had been reading street recently. Um she had been reading street recently. Um she had been reading John Height's book, The Anxious John Height's book, The Anxious John Height's book, The Anxious Generation. She was like, "Hey, have you Generation. She was like, "Hey, have you Generation. She was like, "Hey, have you seen this book? These are not seen this book? These are not seen this book? These are not Christians. They don't go to church Christians. They don't go to church Christians. They don't go to church anywhere." I was like, "Yes, I have."

anywhere." I was like, "Yes, I have." anywhere." I was like, "Yes, I have." And we had an amazing conversation cuz And we had an amazing conversation cuz And we had an amazing conversation cuz she's raising two kids and she's like, she's raising two kids and she's like, she's raising two kids and she's like, "Man, I'm really freaked out about my "Man, I'm really freaked out about my "Man, I'm really freaked out about my kids and really starting to think about kids and really starting to think about kids and really starting to think about the boundaries I need to have." So I the boundaries I need to have." So I the boundaries I need to have." So I think that's like that's a conversation think that's like that's a conversation think that's like that's a conversation with some folks across the street who with some folks across the street who with some folks across the street who wouldn't claim to be Christians and are wouldn't claim to be Christians and are wouldn't claim to be Christians and are not churched but they're they're seeing not churched but they're they're seeing not churched but they're they're seeing that same negative effect of man this that same negative effect of man this that same negative effect of man this thing we've believed about freedom has thing we've believed about freedom has thing we've believed about freedom has some really detrimental effects in our some really detrimental effects in our some really detrimental effects in our society. So I think that can be a society. So I think that can be a society. So I think that can be a starting place. Um that's that's I guess starting place. Um that's that's I guess starting place. Um that's that's I guess the the side of the critique. And then I the the side of the critique. And then I the the side of the critique. And then I think on the positive side, the ways think on the positive side, the ways think on the positive side, the ways that we can embrace the good of that we can embrace the good of that we can embrace the good of obligation and duty and dependence. Um obligation and duty and dependence. Um obligation and duty and dependence. Um another place that you're seeing that another place that you're seeing that another place that you're seeing that good play out right now is in all the good play out right now is in all the good play out right now is in all the conversations especially in Canada and conversations especially in Canada and conversations especially in Canada and the UK around assisted dying medical the UK around assisted dying medical the UK around assisted dying medical like medical youth in Asia, right? And like medical youth in Asia, right? And like medical youth in Asia, right? And people are realizing, hey, actually, I people are realizing, hey, actually, I people are realizing, hey, actually, I don't think we want to live in a world don't think we want to live in a world don't think we want to live in a world where we have no responsibilities to where we have no responsibilities to where we have no responsibilities to those who are aging, to those who are those who are aging, to those who are those who are aging, to those who are becoming more dependent. That's actually becoming more dependent. That's actually becoming more dependent. That's actually a not a good place to be. And so I think a not a good place to be. And so I think a not a good place to be. And so I think again those conversations in our culture again those conversations in our culture again those conversations in our culture help us lean into the fact that actually help us lean into the fact that actually help us lean into the fact that actually obligations and dependence and duty obligations and dependence and duty obligations and dependence and duty toward one another are a key part of the toward one another are a key part of the toward one another are a key part of the right idea of freedom. Yeah, that is one right idea of freedom. Yeah, that is one right idea of freedom. Yeah, that is one thing I'm really concerned about with thing I'm really concerned about with thing I'm really concerned about with these euthanasia conversations as they these euthanasia conversations as they these euthanasia conversations as they spread because the cultural assumptions spread because the cultural assumptions spread because the cultural assumptions about autonomy are so deeply rooted that about autonomy are so deeply rooted that about autonomy are so deeply rooted that it's hard to imagine anything that's it's hard to imagine anything that's it's hard to imagine anything that's ultimately out of our control or a ultimately out of our control or a ultimately out of our control or a choice that we don't get to exercise. So

choice that we don't get to exercise. So choice that we don't get to exercise. So like you said this will be very very like you said this will be very very like you said this will be very very hard. That's why you got to bring other hard. That's why you got to bring other hard. That's why you got to bring other elements of moral foundation theory to elements of moral foundation theory to elements of moral foundation theory to borrow from height again. Um things borrow from height again. Um things borrow from height again. Um things about you know fairness and justice about you know fairness and justice about you know fairness and justice because of course the people who are because of course the people who are because of course the people who are most likely to be adversely affected by most likely to be adversely affected by most likely to be adversely affected by this well people who do not have money this well people who do not have money this well people who do not have money or people who have uh diseases that or people who have uh diseases that or people who have uh diseases that other people or conditions that make other people or conditions that make other people or conditions that make other people think that they don't other people think that they don't other people think that they don't deserve life or they don't deserve deserve life or they don't deserve deserve life or they don't deserve money. So these things are going to come money. So these things are going to come money. So these things are going to come in very direct direct conflict. um give in very direct direct conflict. um give in very direct direct conflict. um give a couple of other examples just just for a couple of other examples just just for a couple of other examples just just for me to chime in on this as I was thinking me to chime in on this as I was thinking me to chime in on this as I was thinking about this in terms of that um of how to about this in terms of that um of how to about this in terms of that um of how to help people to understand choice does help people to understand choice does help people to understand choice does not always solve problems. One would be not always solve problems. One would be not always solve problems. One would be how many people if you said in the last how many people if you said in the last how many people if you said in the last 15 years have we become a better world 15 years have we become a better world 15 years have we become a better world by people having the ability to say by people having the ability to say by people having the ability to say whatever they want with a platform that whatever they want with a platform that whatever they want with a platform that can reach the entire world. can reach the entire world. can reach the entire world. I would think that maybe a little bit I would think that maybe a little bit I would think that maybe a little bit more discretion would [laughter] be more discretion would [laughter] be more discretion would [laughter] be would be the better part of getting would be the better part of getting would be the better part of getting along with each other. Maybe you along with each other. Maybe you along with each other. Maybe you shouldn't I mean obviously there's free shouldn't I mean obviously there's free shouldn't I mean obviously there's free speech, but just maybe it's not a great speech, but just maybe it's not a great speech, but just maybe it's not a great idea for us to all just say whatever idea for us to all just say whatever idea for us to all just say whatever we're feeling at all these moments. I'm we're feeling at all these moments. I'm we're feeling at all these moments. I'm not sure that choice has been uh used not sure that choice has been uh used not sure that choice has been uh used well. The other I'm wondering about well. The other I'm wondering about well. The other I'm wondering about would be Netflix paralysis.

would be Netflix paralysis. would be Netflix paralysis. um the proliferation of choice with um the proliferation of choice with um the proliferation of choice with streaming where you end up spending more streaming where you end up spending more streaming where you end up spending more time trying to choose between your time trying to choose between your time trying to choose between your options and then you run out of time to options and then you run out of time to options and then you run out of time to actually watch anything at all. Um actually watch anything at all. Um actually watch anything at all. Um that's more of a light-hearted version that's more of a light-hearted version that's more of a light-hearted version of it, but it does show how you just can of it, but it does show how you just can of it, but it does show how you just can keep adding any any choice, but as you keep adding any any choice, but as you keep adding any any choice, but as you add complexity, you also bring add complexity, you also bring add complexity, you also bring frustration and not able to necessarily frustration and not able to necessarily frustration and not able to necessarily um view anything. Um let's close with a um view anything. Um let's close with a um view anything. Um let's close with a couple couple big questions and and I am couple couple big questions and and I am couple couple big questions and and I am hopeful that as people are watching hopeful that as people are watching hopeful that as people are watching these sessions on making sense of us these sessions on making sense of us these sessions on making sense of us that they'll provoke some really you that they'll provoke some really you that they'll provoke some really you know deep conversations about what are know deep conversations about what are know deep conversations about what are we living for? What is our hope? What is we living for? What is our hope? What is we living for? What is our hope? What is the story that we're telling ourselves the story that we're telling ourselves the story that we're telling ourselves and others and that this would be and others and that this would be and others and that this would be designed for us to have these designed for us to have these designed for us to have these conversations with each other in the conversations with each other in the conversations with each other in the church but also with non-Christians church but also with non-Christians church but also with non-Christians outside the church as well. And one outside the church as well. And one outside the church as well. And one conversation I've really enjoyed with conversation I've really enjoyed with conversation I've really enjoyed with you over the years, Bob, has been uh you over the years, Bob, has been uh you over the years, Bob, has been uh well, a lot of the things we've already well, a lot of the things we've already well, a lot of the things we've already covered here, this post-Christendom covered here, this post-Christendom covered here, this post-Christendom world, the missionary encounter of world, the missionary encounter of world, the missionary encounter of Nubigan, but also just about our own Nubigan, but also just about our own Nubigan, but also just about our own political order and its seeming decline political order and its seeming decline political order and its seeming decline and perhaps even um at some point here and perhaps even um at some point here and perhaps even um at some point here it's eclipse. And this is the big it's eclipse. And this is the big it's eclipse. And this is the big conversation. you've you've been conversation. you've you've been conversation. you've you've been reviewing these books and writing about reviewing these books and writing about reviewing these books and writing about these topics for us at the Gospel these topics for us at the Gospel these topics for us at the Gospel Coalition, but how is it and maybe just Coalition, but how is it and maybe just Coalition, but how is it and maybe just thinking about us as church leaders and thinking about us as church leaders and thinking about us as church leaders and other people listening and watching other people listening and watching other people listening and watching here, how do we order liberty, we talk here, how do we order liberty, we talk here, how do we order liberty, we talk about here, freedom in a way that better about here, freedom in a way that better about here, freedom in a way that better preserves the solidarity preserves the solidarity preserves the solidarity here, the solidarity that is necessary

here, the solidarity that is necessary here, the solidarity that is necessary for our society to function. Because we for our society to function. Because we for our society to function. Because we know at some level if everybody just know at some level if everybody just know at some level if everybody just does whatever is right in their own eyes does whatever is right in their own eyes does whatever is right in their own eyes judges style, you get the results of judges style, you get the results of judges style, you get the results of judges. And yet again, we're so bound to judges. And yet again, we're so bound to judges. And yet again, we're so bound to that understanding of negative liberty that understanding of negative liberty that understanding of negative liberty that it's hard for us to recognize that that it's hard for us to recognize that that it's hard for us to recognize that there would be limits whether they be there would be limits whether they be there would be limits whether they be imposed or or self-chosen. So again, imposed or or self-chosen. So again, imposed or or self-chosen. So again, help us to bring those two things help us to bring those two things help us to bring those two things together. You've been thinking about together. You've been thinking about together. You've been thinking about this for a long time. Liberty, this for a long time. Liberty, this for a long time. Liberty, solidarity. We need both to be solidarity. We need both to be solidarity. We need both to be functioning. How do we put them functioning. How do we put them functioning. How do we put them together? together? together? >> Yeah, that's that's a profound question. >> Yeah, that's that's a profound question. >> Yeah, that's that's a profound question. Um, and I I think first I've got a few Um, and I I think first I've got a few Um, and I I think first I've got a few thoughts. First, I think we need to have thoughts. First, I think we need to have thoughts. First, I think we need to have patience for the breadth of patience for the breadth of patience for the breadth of conversations that are going to be conversations that are going to be conversations that are going to be necessary in that journey. Um, you know, necessary in that journey. Um, you know, necessary in that journey. Um, you know, we sometimes we hear people talk about we sometimes we hear people talk about we sometimes we hear people talk about things like post-liberalism or Christian things like post-liberalism or Christian things like post-liberalism or Christian nationalism or even theocracy or nationalism or even theocracy or nationalism or even theocracy or Catholic integralism and and Christians Catholic integralism and and Christians Catholic integralism and and Christians get all worried about like, oh gosh, get all worried about like, oh gosh, get all worried about like, oh gosh, there's all these conversations there's all these conversations there's all these conversations happening and, you know, are we about to happening and, you know, are we about to happening and, you know, are we about to become, you know, does everybody think become, you know, does everybody think become, you know, does everybody think we should be a Christian theocracy or we should be a Christian theocracy or we should be a Christian theocracy or are we about to become like a, you know, are we about to become like a, you know, are we about to become like a, you know, a communist nation? Where are we going?

a communist nation? Where are we going? a communist nation? Where are we going? I think while there are parts of those I think while there are parts of those I think while there are parts of those conversations that can be troubling, uh conversations that can be troubling, uh conversations that can be troubling, uh the conversation is exactly what you'd the conversation is exactly what you'd the conversation is exactly what you'd expect if liberal individualism is expect if liberal individualism is expect if liberal individualism is starting to fray. Um we're not going to starting to fray. Um we're not going to starting to fray. Um we're not going to move smoothly from classical move smoothly from classical move smoothly from classical enlightenment liberalism to whatever enlightenment liberalism to whatever enlightenment liberalism to whatever comes next. We're going to move there comes next. We're going to move there comes next. We're going to move there through a course of debate and give and through a course of debate and give and through a course of debate and give and take and all kinds of different options take and all kinds of different options take and all kinds of different options being on the table. And so I think we being on the table. And so I think we being on the table. And so I think we kind of need to have some patience for kind of need to have some patience for kind of need to have some patience for the fact that those conversations are the fact that those conversations are the fact that those conversations are pretty necessary. I'm not even talking pretty necessary. I'm not even talking pretty necessary. I'm not even talking about within the church. I just think about within the church. I just think about within the church. I just think within the culture at large. You should within the culture at large. You should within the culture at large. You should expect that a lot of people are going to expect that a lot of people are going to expect that a lot of people are going to have a lot of proposals about where have a lot of proposals about where have a lot of proposals about where should we go next. Um you asked the should we go next. Um you asked the should we go next. Um you asked the question though Colin how do we order question though Colin how do we order question though Colin how do we order liberty in a way that better preserves liberty in a way that better preserves liberty in a way that better preserves solidarity or makes solidarity possible? solidarity or makes solidarity possible? solidarity or makes solidarity possible? I think the answer is we need to go back I think the answer is we need to go back I think the answer is we need to go back to that concept of freedom from versus to that concept of freedom from versus to that concept of freedom from versus freedom for. Right? So the problem with freedom for. Right? So the problem with freedom for. Right? So the problem with freedom from with only a negative freedom from with only a negative freedom from with only a negative conception of liberty is that it works conception of liberty is that it works conception of liberty is that it works against any kind of solidarity. Because against any kind of solidarity. Because against any kind of solidarity. Because if what it means for me to be free is I if what it means for me to be free is I if what it means for me to be free is I need to be free from your expectations need to be free from your expectations need to be free from your expectations of me, Colin, and from anybody else's of me, Colin, and from anybody else's of me, Colin, and from anybody else's expectations, eventually where we get is expectations, eventually where we get is expectations, eventually where we get is where there's no foundation for any kind where there's no foundation for any kind where there's no foundation for any kind of togetherness, any kind of solidarity.

of togetherness, any kind of solidarity. of togetherness, any kind of solidarity. It's interesting to me as I watch this It's interesting to me as I watch this It's interesting to me as I watch this happen, uh, thinking about CS Lewis's happen, uh, thinking about CS Lewis's happen, uh, thinking about CS Lewis's book, The Great Divorce, and how he book, The Great Divorce, and how he book, The Great Divorce, and how he pictures hell as this endless suburb pictures hell as this endless suburb pictures hell as this endless suburb where people are trying to move further where people are trying to move further where people are trying to move further and further away from each other. It's a and further away from each other. It's a and further away from each other. It's a really profound picture of what I think really profound picture of what I think really profound picture of what I think our selfishness does to us where it's our selfishness does to us where it's our selfishness does to us where it's just like we we end up having no basis just like we we end up having no basis just like we we end up having no basis for sharing any kind of community for sharing any kind of community for sharing any kind of community because we all want to be so individual. because we all want to be so individual. because we all want to be so individual. And so we need to recover the sense that And so we need to recover the sense that And so we need to recover the sense that freedom that the kind of freedom we freedom that the kind of freedom we freedom that the kind of freedom we really want to have in society, the kind really want to have in society, the kind really want to have in society, the kind of society we want to be a part of is a of society we want to be a part of is a of society we want to be a part of is a society that believes in freedom for society that believes in freedom for society that believes in freedom for something, right? Freedom for loving and something, right? Freedom for loving and something, right? Freedom for loving and serving our neighbors. Freedom for serving our neighbors. Freedom for serving our neighbors. Freedom for building our society. Uh freedom for building our society. Uh freedom for building our society. Uh freedom for contributing to some shared human contributing to some shared human contributing to some shared human project. I think that might be language project. I think that might be language project. I think that might be language I stole from James Davis and Hunter. But I stole from James Davis and Hunter. But I stole from James Davis and Hunter. But that idea of a shared human project like that idea of a shared human project like that idea of a shared human project like hey you know if you live in a city it's hey you know if you live in a city it's hey you know if you live in a city it's a pretty diverse place. There's lots of a pretty diverse place. There's lots of a pretty diverse place. There's lots of different religious traditions and different religious traditions and different religious traditions and cultural traditions and lots of cultural traditions and lots of cultural traditions and lots of different neighborhoods and lots of different neighborhoods and lots of different neighborhoods and lots of different kinds of people. But then the different kinds of people. But then the different kinds of people. But then the thing about a city is it is a shared thing about a city is it is a shared thing about a city is it is a shared human project. We all got to have roads human project. We all got to have roads human project. We all got to have roads and sewers and schools and you know and sewers and schools and you know and sewers and schools and you know people are people realize that there's people are people realize that there's people are people realize that there's some shared humanity that we need to some shared humanity that we need to some shared humanity that we need to build together. And I think recovering build together. And I think recovering build together. And I think recovering the fact that that's what we're free for the fact that that's what we're free for the fact that that's what we're free for is free to pursue the common good and is free to pursue the common good and is free to pursue the common good and that as Christians part of that is just that as Christians part of that is just that as Christians part of that is just caring about the humanity of our caring about the humanity of our caring about the humanity of our neighbors. It's certainly caring about neighbors. It's certainly caring about neighbors. It's certainly caring about their eternal souls and continue to their eternal souls and continue to their eternal souls and continue to preach the gospel, but it's also just preach the gospel, but it's also just preach the gospel, but it's also just having a vision that we're free to having a vision that we're free to having a vision that we're free to pursue a shared common human project pursue a shared common human project pursue a shared common human project together. And I think that needs to be

together. And I think that needs to be together. And I think that needs to be part of the starting point. So, I guess part of the starting point. So, I guess part of the starting point. So, I guess it's a it's maybe a pretty simple it's a it's maybe a pretty simple it's a it's maybe a pretty simple answer. It doesn't get us very far down answer. It doesn't get us very far down answer. It doesn't get us very far down the road, but I think recovering that the road, but I think recovering that the road, but I think recovering that sense of freedom for that freedom means sense of freedom for that freedom means sense of freedom for that freedom means freedom to to build some things freedom to to build some things freedom to to build some things together. together. together. >> I love that. Let's bring it full circle >> I love that. Let's bring it full circle >> I love that. Let's bring it full circle here. Let's go back to the eklesia. here. Let's go back to the eklesia. here. Let's go back to the eklesia. Let's go back to the church. Um, another Let's go back to the church. Um, another Let's go back to the church. Um, another big thing we talk about at the Keller big thing we talk about at the Keller big thing we talk about at the Keller Center is thinking about this Center is thinking about this Center is thinking about this civilizational change and finding a civilizational change and finding a civilizational change and finding a paradigm back in Augustine and the paradigm back in Augustine and the paradigm back in Augustine and the eclipse ultimately of the Roman Empire. eclipse ultimately of the Roman Empire. eclipse ultimately of the Roman Empire. Um, what role then does the church play Um, what role then does the church play Um, what role then does the church play in the passing of a political order um in the passing of a political order um in the passing of a political order um that has lasted for 250 years? Of that has lasted for 250 years? Of that has lasted for 250 years? Of course, this is the year that we're course, this is the year that we're course, this is the year that we're celebrating 250th anniversary. And I celebrating 250th anniversary. And I celebrating 250th anniversary. And I don't mean something like our democracy don't mean something like our democracy don't mean something like our democracy is going to die immediately. I'm part of is going to die immediately. I'm part of is going to die immediately. I'm part of I'm just thinking about how nothing in I'm just thinking about how nothing in I'm just thinking about how nothing in this world lasts forever and we can see this world lasts forever and we can see this world lasts forever and we can see that fraying that you're talking about that fraying that you're talking about that fraying that you're talking about there of how how do we stay together there of how how do we stay together there of how how do we stay together when everybody's trying to do their own when everybody's trying to do their own when everybody's trying to do their own thing and there's no clear shared thing and there's no clear shared thing and there's no clear shared vision. It's very hard to hold a society vision. It's very hard to hold a society vision. It's very hard to hold a society together with that. So not trying to be together with that. So not trying to be together with that. So not trying to be alarmist but I am trying to be serious alarmist but I am trying to be serious alarmist but I am trying to be serious to say that when you when you leave to say that when you when you leave to say that when you when you leave Christendom behind and you leave the Christendom behind and you leave the Christendom behind and you leave the enlightenment behind something has to enlightenment behind something has to enlightenment behind something has to come replace it. and we don't have that come replace it. and we don't have that come replace it. and we don't have that thing yet that's come to replace it. So, thing yet that's come to replace it. So, thing yet that's come to replace it. So, so we talk about Augustine, the fall of so we talk about Augustine, the fall of so we talk about Augustine, the fall of the Roman Empire. Um, that was the major the Roman Empire. Um, that was the major the Roman Empire. Um, that was the major concern that he had in City of God. And concern that he had in City of God. And concern that he had in City of God. And so, as we're thinking about the church so, as we're thinking about the church so, as we're thinking about the church and the church is then thinking about

and the church is then thinking about and the church is then thinking about America, you've talked you've counled us America, you've talked you've counled us America, you've talked you've counled us toward patience. You've counseledled us toward patience. You've counseledled us toward patience. You've counseledled us toward loving our neighbors. toward loving our neighbors. toward loving our neighbors. um if if the way that we've conceived of um if if the way that we've conceived of um if if the way that we've conceived of freedom, especially in terms of I think freedom, especially in terms of I think freedom, especially in terms of I think you were linking together individualism you were linking together individualism you were linking together individualism and capitalism, and capitalism, and capitalism, if if those are not linked together if if those are not linked together if if those are not linked together quite the same way going forward, quite the same way going forward, quite the same way going forward, what role does the church play? Um where what role does the church play? Um where what role does the church play? Um where do we step into that conversation? Is do we step into that conversation? Is do we step into that conversation? Is that do we have a role to play in that that do we have a role to play in that that do we have a role to play in that or is that just something we we leave to or is that just something we we leave to or is that just something we we leave to the politicians? Um, how do we how do we the politicians? Um, how do we how do we the politicians? Um, how do we how do we enter in that conversation in the same enter in that conversation in the same enter in that conversation in the same way that Augustine did in his day? way that Augustine did in his day? way that Augustine did in his day? >> Yeah, I I I'm so glad to see more and >> Yeah, I I I'm so glad to see more and >> Yeah, I I I'm so glad to see more and more people sort of recovering Augustine more people sort of recovering Augustine more people sort of recovering Augustine and getting interested in Augustine and getting interested in Augustine and getting interested in Augustine because I do think there are some because I do think there are some because I do think there are some interesting parallels to the the moment interesting parallels to the the moment interesting parallels to the the moment he's living in in Rome and the moment he's living in in Rome and the moment he's living in in Rome and the moment we're living through in our own lives. we're living through in our own lives. we're living through in our own lives. And I think there's three ways the And I think there's three ways the And I think there's three ways the church can help to uh be part of the church can help to uh be part of the church can help to uh be part of the solution here. Um, one, the church plays solution here. Um, one, the church plays solution here. Um, one, the church plays the role of solidarity bringinger, if the role of solidarity bringinger, if the role of solidarity bringinger, if you want to think of it that way, with you want to think of it that way, with you want to think of it that way, with the fraying of American solidarity, the fraying of American solidarity, the fraying of American solidarity, which you've been talking about. There which you've been talking about. There which you've been talking about. There are a lot of different writers, I'm are a lot of different writers, I'm are a lot of different writers, I'm thinking of Rod Dreer, Jake Meter, Yaval thinking of Rod Dreer, Jake Meter, Yaval thinking of Rod Dreer, Jake Meter, Yaval Lavine, who've identified the fact that Lavine, who've identified the fact that Lavine, who've identified the fact that we need sort of local forms of we need sort of local forms of we need sort of local forms of solidarity that that we we need to at solidarity that that we we need to at solidarity that that we we need to at least be able to find in our local least be able to find in our local least be able to find in our local communities something that sort of like communities something that sort of like communities something that sort of like creates solidarity. And I think that's creates solidarity. And I think that's creates solidarity. And I think that's what the church can be. to quote Robert what the church can be. to quote Robert what the church can be. to quote Robert Putnham, right? We're all bowling alone.

Putnham, right? We're all bowling alone. Putnham, right? We're all bowling alone. No one's going to bowling leagues No one's going to bowling leagues No one's going to bowling leagues anymore. No one's having dinner parties. anymore. No one's having dinner parties. anymore. No one's having dinner parties. We're more isolated than we've ever We're more isolated than we've ever We're more isolated than we've ever been. We need to see the local church as been. We need to see the local church as been. We need to see the local church as a place of simple human solidarity. And a place of simple human solidarity. And a place of simple human solidarity. And sometimes Christians have a hard time sometimes Christians have a hard time sometimes Christians have a hard time with that because we we're so used to with that because we we're so used to with that because we we're so used to thinking of the spiritual purpose of the thinking of the spiritual purpose of the thinking of the spiritual purpose of the church, right? As a proclaimer of the church, right? As a proclaimer of the church, right? As a proclaimer of the gospel and, you know, thinking about gospel and, you know, thinking about gospel and, you know, thinking about people's eternal souls. But I also think people's eternal souls. But I also think people's eternal souls. But I also think just the social function of the church just the social function of the church just the social function of the church as a place of baseline human solidarity. as a place of baseline human solidarity. as a place of baseline human solidarity. Bringing together a bunch of people in a Bringing together a bunch of people in a Bringing together a bunch of people in a city who might not live in the same city who might not live in the same city who might not live in the same neighborhoods, might not share exactly neighborhoods, might not share exactly neighborhoods, might not share exactly the same political affiliations or the the same political affiliations or the the same political affiliations or the same social worlds. The church is a same social worlds. The church is a same social worlds. The church is a little place of solidarity. And so I little place of solidarity. And so I little place of solidarity. And so I think we can to to use Augustine's think we can to to use Augustine's think we can to to use Augustine's language, right? We can be a city within language, right? We can be a city within language, right? We can be a city within the city. There's a little city of God the city. There's a little city of God the city. There's a little city of God reality that each local church gets to reality that each local church gets to reality that each local church gets to live out. So the church can be a live out. So the church can be a live out. So the church can be a solidarity bringer. I think secondly the solidarity bringer. I think secondly the solidarity bringer. I think secondly the church can play that role of subversive church can play that role of subversive church can play that role of subversive fulfillment that we were talking about a fulfillment that we were talking about a fulfillment that we were talking about a few minutes ago right it's the church few minutes ago right it's the church few minutes ago right it's the church who gets to say hey actually freedom is who gets to say hey actually freedom is who gets to say hey actually freedom is the heritage of Christianity uh the the heritage of Christianity uh the the heritage of Christianity uh the western version of freedom even though western version of freedom even though western version of freedom even though it's kind of been corrupted we wouldn't it's kind of been corrupted we wouldn't it's kind of been corrupted we wouldn't have that vision of freedom if it have that vision of freedom if it have that vision of freedom if it weren't for the Christian faith and weren't for the Christian faith and weren't for the Christian faith and especially even for reformationational especially even for reformationational especially even for reformationational Christianity this is we're part of the Christianity this is we're part of the Christianity this is we're part of the reason that we live in a world that reason that we live in a world that reason that we live in a world that thinks freedom is a good idea and yet thinks freedom is a good idea and yet thinks freedom is a good idea and yet When you try to do freedom untethered When you try to do freedom untethered When you try to do freedom untethered from other human goods like love of from other human goods like love of from other human goods like love of neighbor or others, you end up neighbor or others, you end up neighbor or others, you end up undercutting the very freedom you're undercutting the very freedom you're undercutting the very freedom you're seeking. So I think the church has a seeking. So I think the church has a seeking. So I think the church has a role to play here to say, hey, freedom role to play here to say, hey, freedom role to play here to say, hey, freedom is great. We've always thought that. And

is great. We've always thought that. And is great. We've always thought that. And guess what? It has to be held together guess what? It has to be held together guess what? It has to be held together with other human goods like love of with other human goods like love of with other human goods like love of neighbor. And so just going back to some neighbor. And so just going back to some neighbor. And so just going back to some of the basic stuff of the sermon on the of the basic stuff of the sermon on the of the basic stuff of the sermon on the mount, I think is a great way for the mount, I think is a great way for the mount, I think is a great way for the church to sort of do that work of church to sort of do that work of church to sort of do that work of critique and of subversive fulfillment. critique and of subversive fulfillment. critique and of subversive fulfillment. And then finally, you know, the church And then finally, you know, the church And then finally, you know, the church just plays that role of alternative just plays that role of alternative just plays that role of alternative city, you know, that that Augustine city, you know, that that Augustine city, you know, that that Augustine framed up so well, the church of Jesus framed up so well, the church of Jesus framed up so well, the church of Jesus Christ. Here's what I always want my Christ. Here's what I always want my Christ. Here's what I always want my church to think about. I know that we're church to think about. I know that we're church to think about. I know that we're all so inundated with um the political all so inundated with um the political all so inundated with um the political polarization of our of our society that polarization of our of our society that polarization of our of our society that that just we all feel that all the time. that just we all feel that all the time. that just we all feel that all the time. But I always try to remind the people of But I always try to remind the people of But I always try to remind the people of our church, hey, the church of Jesus our church, hey, the church of Jesus our church, hey, the church of Jesus Christ has thrived and does thrive in Christ has thrived and does thrive in Christ has thrived and does thrive in all kinds of different social and pol all kinds of different social and pol all kinds of different social and pol political arrangements. So, I love political arrangements. So, I love political arrangements. So, I love living in a country with all the living in a country with all the living in a country with all the freedoms that we have. I don't freedoms that we have. I don't freedoms that we have. I don't necessarily want to live somewhere else, necessarily want to live somewhere else, necessarily want to live somewhere else, but the church is going to thrive no but the church is going to thrive no but the church is going to thrive no matter what. Uh, and that's a it's good matter what. Uh, and that's a it's good matter what. Uh, and that's a it's good news for us to be reminded of that the news for us to be reminded of that the news for us to be reminded of that the church of Jesus Christ is so adaptable church of Jesus Christ is so adaptable church of Jesus Christ is so adaptable and finds flourishing in so many and finds flourishing in so many and finds flourishing in so many different environments. think about what different environments. think about what different environments. think about what the late Roman Empire was like compared the late Roman Empire was like compared the late Roman Empire was like compared to the Roman Empire uh you know or the to the Roman Empire uh you know or the to the Roman Empire uh you know or the the Eastern or the sorry the the Western the Eastern or the sorry the the Western the Eastern or the sorry the the Western European Empire after the fall of Rome.

European Empire after the fall of Rome. European Empire after the fall of Rome. Um there's those are such different Um there's those are such different Um there's those are such different worlds and yet Christianity thrived in worlds and yet Christianity thrived in worlds and yet Christianity thrived in both. And so likewise in our day, we both. And so likewise in our day, we both. And so likewise in our day, we need to make sure that we don't tie our need to make sure that we don't tie our need to make sure that we don't tie our hopes for the thriving of the kingdom of hopes for the thriving of the kingdom of hopes for the thriving of the kingdom of God to the, you know, the ups and downs God to the, you know, the ups and downs God to the, you know, the ups and downs of our political order because the good of our political order because the good of our political order because the good news for us is that Jesus is building news for us is that Jesus is building news for us is that Jesus is building his church and his kingdom is going to his church and his kingdom is going to his church and his kingdom is going to continue to thrive. And, you know, we continue to thrive. And, you know, we continue to thrive. And, you know, we have a role to play in our social and have a role to play in our social and have a role to play in our social and political environment, but our our fate political environment, but our our fate political environment, but our our fate as God's people is not tied to any as God's people is not tied to any as God's people is not tied to any particular social or political particular social or political particular social or political arrangement. And so that's good news for arrangement. And so that's good news for arrangement. And so that's good news for us because it frees us to just care us because it frees us to just care us because it frees us to just care about loving our neighbors and loving about loving our neighbors and loving about loving our neighbors and loving our cities and loving our country in in our cities and loving our country in in our cities and loving our country in in the the most possible way that has the the the most possible way that has the the the most possible way that has the most integrity. most integrity. most integrity. >> Yeah, that was the challenge Augustine >> Yeah, that was the challenge Augustine >> Yeah, that was the challenge Augustine faced. We think of often the Roman faced. We think of often the Roman faced. We think of often the Roman Empire for Christians as being one of Empire for Christians as being one of Empire for Christians as being one of persecution. But then of course it persecution. But then of course it persecution. But then of course it became one of power, became one of power, became one of power, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And to the point where in Augustine's >> And to the point where in Augustine's >> And to the point where in Augustine's time, Christians could not conceive of time, Christians could not conceive of time, Christians could not conceive of the church without the support of the the church without the support of the the church without the support of the state. It felt like they were losing state. It felt like they were losing state. It felt like they were losing everything at the same time. And that's everything at the same time. And that's everything at the same time. And that's exactly what he tries to address in in exactly what he tries to address in in exactly what he tries to address in in multiple angles in City of God of of the multiple angles in City of God of of the multiple angles in City of God of of the concerns in the church, but also the concerns in the church, but also the concerns in the church, but also the world trying to blame the church for world trying to blame the church for world trying to blame the church for what was going wrong. So, no wonder this what was going wrong. So, no wonder this what was going wrong. So, no wonder this has been so such a helpful resource over has been so such a helpful resource over has been so such a helpful resource over the many centuries and is very timely the many centuries and is very timely the many centuries and is very timely for us today. U let me also commend for for us today. U let me also commend for for us today. U let me also commend for people and we'll have this in the in the people and we'll have this in the in the people and we'll have this in the in the show notes, um Bob's review of James show notes, um Bob's review of James show notes, um Bob's review of James Davis Hunter's book, Democracy and Davis Hunter's book, Democracy and Davis Hunter's book, Democracy and Solidarity. It's at the Gospel Coalition Solidarity. It's at the Gospel Coalition Solidarity. It's at the Gospel Coalition website under the title, we can't build

website under the title, we can't build website under the title, we can't build political solidarity from cultural political solidarity from cultural political solidarity from cultural rubble. Uh the other two projects we've rubble. Uh the other two projects we've rubble. Uh the other two projects we've been talking about here, Bob's chapter been talking about here, Bob's chapter been talking about here, Bob's chapter on ecclesial apologetics from the gospel on ecclesial apologetics from the gospel on ecclesial apologetics from the gospel after Christendom, an introduction to after Christendom, an introduction to after Christendom, an introduction to cultural apologetics published 2025 and cultural apologetics published 2025 and cultural apologetics published 2025 and reflective and then brand new reflective and then brand new reflective and then brand new curriculum, making sense of of us, his curriculum, making sense of of us, his curriculum, making sense of of us, his chapter there on liberty. Bob, as chapter there on liberty. Bob, as chapter there on liberty. Bob, as always, it's been a joy. Thanks for all always, it's been a joy. Thanks for all always, it's been a joy. Thanks for all the [music] guidance you've offered me the [music] guidance you've offered me the [music] guidance you've offered me over the years and the guidance you've over the years and the guidance you've over the years and the guidance you've shared with us here today. shared with us here today. shared with us here today. >> Colin, so good to talk with you. It's >> Colin, so good to talk with you. It's >> Colin, so good to talk with you. It's always a joy and uh yeah, hope that your always a joy and uh yeah, hope that your always a joy and uh yeah, hope that your listeners and uh viewers find it listeners and uh viewers find it listeners and uh viewers find it helpful. helpful. helpful. [music] Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to remember, [music] when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.