Answering the Skeptic’s Hardest Questions [TGC Podcast Ep. 389]

It's because you care about spreading It's because you care about spreading the message of Jesus to those around the message of Jesus to those around the message of Jesus to those around you, even if you think it's going to be you, even if you think it's going to be you, even if you think it's going to be a hard conversation. And that means that a hard conversation. And that means that a hard conversation. And that means that you are Sam and my peoples. Like, this you are Sam and my peoples. Like, this you are Sam and my peoples. Like, this is what we're all about. Um, the way is what we're all about. Um, the way is what we're all about. Um, the way we're going to structure this time, Sam we're going to structure this time, Sam we're going to structure this time, Sam is going to talk for a few minutes, then is going to talk for a few minutes, then is going to talk for a few minutes, then I'm going to talk for a few minutes, and I'm going to talk for a few minutes, and I'm going to talk for a few minutes, and then we've got two mics set up where we then we've got two mics set up where we then we've got two mics set up where we want you to come and ask questions want you to come and ask questions want you to come and ask questions because we want this to be a live and because we want this to be a live and because we want this to be a live and interactive experience. So, I'm gonna interactive experience. So, I'm gonna interactive experience. So, I'm gonna kick it over to Sam in a second. And I kick it over to Sam in a second. And I kick it over to Sam in a second. And I don't know that I'm gonna introduce you don't know that I'm gonna introduce you don't know that I'm gonna introduce you because they probably know from the because they probably know from the because they probably know from the programs like who you are. So, we're programs like who you are. So, we're programs like who you are. So, we're just going to take that as red. Uh, just going to take that as red. Uh, just going to take that as red. Uh, ladies and gentlemen, Sam Chan. Whoa. ladies and gentlemen, Sam Chan. Whoa. ladies and gentlemen, Sam Chan. Whoa. Hey. Hey. I don't think anyone here does Hey. Hey. I don't think anyone here does Hey. Hey. I don't think anyone here does know who I am. They've all come here for know who I am. They've all come here for know who I am. They've all come here for you, Rebecca. And I think they just want you, Rebecca. And I think they just want you, Rebecca. And I think they just want me to speak as little as possible and me to speak as little as possible and me to speak as little as possible and just get out of the way as quickly as just get out of the way as quickly as just get out of the way as quickly as possible. But if you my seminar possible. But if you my seminar possible. But if you my seminar yesterday, you will know my standard yesterday, you will know my standard yesterday, you will know my standard introduction is the reason why I'm introduction is the reason why I'm introduction is the reason why I'm standing up here is I'm short. I can't standing up here is I'm short. I can't standing up here is I'm short. I can't present sitting down. I'm in the present sitting down. I'm in the present sitting down. I'm in the shortest 1% of the population in a room shortest 1% of the population in a room shortest 1% of the population in a room full of 100 men. I'm the shortest man in full of 100 men. I'm the shortest man in full of 100 men. I'm the shortest man in that room. And I'm also Asian but grew that room. And I'm also Asian but grew that room. And I'm also Asian but grew up in Australia. I work as a medical up in Australia. I work as a medical up in Australia. I work as a medical doctor also in full-time Christian doctor also in full-time Christian doctor also in full-time Christian ministry. But I have three boys. I'm ministry. But I have three boys. I'm ministry. But I have three boys. I'm married to Steph. She should be in the married to Steph. She should be in the married to Steph. She should be in the room somewhere, but she can't find room somewhere, but she can't find room somewhere, but she can't find Sagenore Ballroom 1 to four. That's all Sagenore Ballroom 1 to four. That's all Sagenore Ballroom 1 to four. That's all right. I couldn't either, so she'll be right. I couldn't either, so she'll be right. I couldn't either, so she'll be coming in a little bit later. But we coming in a little bit later. But we coming in a little bit later. But we have three boys, and if you were at the have three boys, and if you were at the have three boys, and if you were at the seminar yesterday, you will know that I seminar yesterday, you will know that I seminar yesterday, you will know that I have told them that when they grow up, have told them that when they grow up, have told them that when they grow up, chances are they will be just like me, chances are they will be just like me, chances are they will be just like me, not very good-looking, and very, very

not very good-looking, and very, very not very good-looking, and very, very short. So, no girl is ever going to like short. So, no girl is ever going to like short. So, no girl is ever going to like them. Their only chance in life is to them. Their only chance in life is to them. Their only chance in life is to study hard and make a lot of money. Now, study hard and make a lot of money. Now, study hard and make a lot of money. Now, it's a joke. I've never said that, but it's a joke. I've never said that, but it's a joke. I've never said that, but every Asian in the room right now is every Asian in the room right now is every Asian in the room right now is saying, "Hang on, are you sure you're saying, "Hang on, are you sure you're saying, "Hang on, are you sure you're joking?" Because that's what I tell my joking?" Because that's what I tell my joking?" Because that's what I tell my kids. No, it's a joke. Okay. So, my kids. No, it's a joke. Okay. So, my kids. No, it's a joke. Okay. So, my experience with evangelism and sort of experience with evangelism and sort of experience with evangelism and sort of answering questions is I work these days answering questions is I work these days answering questions is I work these days with City Bible Forum. I do workplace with City Bible Forum. I do workplace with City Bible Forum. I do workplace evangelism. So, I speak in secular evangelism. So, I speak in secular evangelism. So, I speak in secular settings to secular people. I usually settings to secular people. I usually settings to secular people. I usually give a a short talk, 10-minute talk, and give a a short talk, 10-minute talk, and give a a short talk, 10-minute talk, and then we open up to question and answer then we open up to question and answer then we open up to question and answer time. I also do crew camp ministry. I time. I also do crew camp ministry. I time. I also do crew camp ministry. I talk to high schoolers. Again, I give a talk to high schoolers. Again, I give a talk to high schoolers. Again, I give a short Bible talk and we open up for short Bible talk and we open up for short Bible talk and we open up for question and answer time. So, that's question and answer time. So, that's question and answer time. So, that's sort of my experience with question and sort of my experience with question and sort of my experience with question and answer time. I'm also involved with a answer time. I'm also involved with a answer time. I'm also involved with a school of evangelism called school of evangelism called school of evangelism called evq.org.au. We know about IQ, but for evq.org.au. We know about IQ, but for evq.org.au. We know about IQ, but for evangelism, we need EVQ. So, have a look evangelism, we need EVQ. So, have a look evangelism, we need EVQ. So, have a look at at at evq.org.au. And there's a little quiz evq.org.au. And there's a little quiz evq.org.au. And there's a little quiz there you can take to measure your EVQ there you can take to measure your EVQ there you can take to measure your EVQ and see how your evangelism and and see how your evangelism and and see how your evangelism and answering questions can be better. I answering questions can be better. I answering questions can be better. I also wrote a book on how to talk about also wrote a book on how to talk about also wrote a book on how to talk about Jesus without being that guy. And and Jesus without being that guy. And and Jesus without being that guy. And and also there's a book on evangelism in a also there's a book on evangelism in a also there's a book on evangelism in a skeptical world and there's a bit of a a skeptical world and there's a bit of a a skeptical world and there's a bit of a a section in the back on how to answer section in the back on how to answer section in the back on how to answer questions. Evangelism in a skeptical questions. Evangelism in a skeptical questions. Evangelism in a skeptical world and also how to talk about Jesus world and also how to talk about Jesus world and also how to talk about Jesus without being that guy. just a few more without being that guy. just a few more without being that guy. just a few more things from me on maybe little tips from things from me on maybe little tips from things from me on maybe little tips from what has kept me going as an evangelist

what has kept me going as an evangelist what has kept me going as an evangelist and answering questions just being happy and answering questions just being happy and answering questions just being happy with who I am and where I am in my with who I am and where I am in my with who I am and where I am in my Christian journey because as Christians Christian journey because as Christians Christian journey because as Christians we always wish we were better but the we always wish we were better but the we always wish we were better but the Bible has that verse we're jars of clay Bible has that verse we're jars of clay Bible has that verse we're jars of clay that God uses us not despite our that God uses us not despite our that God uses us not despite our weaknesses but because of our weaknesses weaknesses but because of our weaknesses weaknesses but because of our weaknesses so it's okay to be not as good as we so it's okay to be not as good as we so it's okay to be not as good as we want to be, but we still want to want to be, but we still want to want to be, but we still want to improve. But every apologist does want improve. But every apologist does want improve. But every apologist does want to be better. So I wish I was like these to be better. So I wish I was like these to be better. So I wish I was like these Australian apologists called Dan Australian apologists called Dan Australian apologists called Dan Patterson, Max Jagenatham, but they and Patterson, Max Jagenatham, but they and Patterson, Max Jagenatham, but they and me wish we could be John Dixon who runs me wish we could be John Dixon who runs me wish we could be John Dixon who runs Undeceptions and who teaches at Wheaton Undeceptions and who teaches at Wheaton Undeceptions and who teaches at Wheaton and he's also an Australian. But I'm and he's also an Australian. But I'm and he's also an Australian. But I'm sure John Dixon wishes he was William sure John Dixon wishes he was William sure John Dixon wishes he was William Craig and wishes he was better. And I'm Craig and wishes he was better. And I'm Craig and wishes he was better. And I'm sure William Craig wishes he was Rebecca sure William Craig wishes he was Rebecca sure William Craig wishes he was Rebecca McLolin. So we all we all aspire to be McLolin. So we all we all aspire to be McLolin. So we all we all aspire to be better than where we are but just be better than where we are but just be better than where we are but just be happy with where we are at that moment happy with where we are at that moment happy with where we are at that moment and God will use us not despite our and God will use us not despite our and God will use us not despite our weaknesses but because of our weaknesses but because of our weaknesses but because of our weaknesses.

weaknesses. weaknesses. Also it's also good to know our context. Also it's also good to know our context. Also it's also good to know our context. And so for example if someone asks me And so for example if someone asks me And so for example if someone asks me why does a good God allow suffering? And why does a good God allow suffering? And why does a good God allow suffering? And if that's in a university setting if that's in a university setting if that's in a university setting they're going to want they're going to want they're going to want uh sort of a philosophical answer. But uh sort of a philosophical answer. But uh sort of a philosophical answer. But of course, if someone asked me because of course, if someone asked me because of course, if someone asked me because their sister's been diagnosed with their sister's been diagnosed with their sister's been diagnosed with cancer, well, that's going to need a cancer, well, that's going to need a cancer, well, that's going to need a pastoral answer. So, they're two very pastoral answer. So, they're two very pastoral answer. So, they're two very different answers to the same question different answers to the same question different answers to the same question there. And that's why I am learning, I'm there. And that's why I am learning, I'm there. And that's why I am learning, I'm still learning, I'm learning the best still learning, I'm learning the best still learning, I'm learning the best answer then is a question. Why do you answer then is a question. Why do you answer then is a question. Why do you ask? And now, New Testament studies are ask? And now, New Testament studies are ask? And now, New Testament studies are showing that Jesus himself asked 300 showing that Jesus himself asked 300 showing that Jesus himself asked 300 questions. He was asked 200 questions questions. He was asked 200 questions questions. He was asked 200 questions but only directly answered the question but only directly answered the question but only directly answered the question eight times. The rest time he answered eight times. The rest time he answered eight times. The rest time he answered with a question like Jesus should we pay with a question like Jesus should we pay with a question like Jesus should we pay taxes. I don't know whose head do you taxes. I don't know whose head do you taxes. I don't know whose head do you see on this coin? Jesus by what see on this coin? Jesus by what see on this coin? Jesus by what authority do you do you do these things? authority do you do you do these things? authority do you do you do these things? I I don't know by what authority does I I don't know by what authority does I I don't know by what authority does does John the Baptist do these things?

does John the Baptist do these things? does John the Baptist do these things? So he answers with a question. So I'll So he answers with a question. So I'll So he answers with a question. So I'll give you just two quick examples of what give you just two quick examples of what give you just two quick examples of what what I'm talking about. And forgive me what I'm talking about. And forgive me what I'm talking about. And forgive me again if you in the seminar yesterday again if you in the seminar yesterday again if you in the seminar yesterday and you heard these examples. I was and you heard these examples. I was and you heard these examples. I was working as a doctor. Young nurse asked working as a doctor. Young nurse asked working as a doctor. Young nurse asked me, "Hey, what books should I read?" me, "Hey, what books should I read?" me, "Hey, what books should I read?" That was my chance to be the powerful That was my chance to be the powerful That was my chance to be the powerful doctor man explain to her the cannon of doctor man explain to her the cannon of doctor man explain to her the cannon of Western literature. But instead, I just Western literature. But instead, I just Western literature. But instead, I just asked, "Why do you ask?" And she said, asked, "Why do you ask?" And she said, asked, "Why do you ask?" And she said, "Oh, because I'm from China. I feel so "Oh, because I'm from China. I feel so "Oh, because I'm from China. I feel so young and naive. I want wisdom." So I young and naive. I want wisdom." So I young and naive. I want wisdom." So I was able to say, "Hey, I work for City was able to say, "Hey, I work for City was able to say, "Hey, I work for City Bible Forum. I have a female colleague. Bible Forum. I have a female colleague. Bible Forum. I have a female colleague. She's a chaplain. She speaks fluent She's a chaplain. She speaks fluent She's a chaplain. She speaks fluent Chinese. Would you like to talk to her?" Chinese. Would you like to talk to her?" Chinese. Would you like to talk to her?" And she said, "Yes." Another time I was And she said, "Yes." Another time I was And she said, "Yes." Another time I was working with a surgeon and he asked me working with a surgeon and he asked me working with a surgeon and he asked me for my views on same-sex marriage. Well, for my views on same-sex marriage. Well, for my views on same-sex marriage. Well, I used to teach in a seminary and I used to teach in a seminary and I used to teach in a seminary and ethics. So I gave him a 20inut ethics. So I gave him a 20inut ethics. So I gave him a 20inut monologue, informed, nuanced, sensitive monologue, informed, nuanced, sensitive monologue, informed, nuanced, sensitive answer. But I should have said, "Why do answer. But I should have said, "Why do answer. But I should have said, "Why do you ask?" Because I later found out his you ask?" Because I later found out his you ask?" Because I later found out his sister's brother was gay. So I needed to sister's brother was gay. So I needed to sister's brother was gay. So I needed to give him a partial answer, not not the give him a partial answer, not not the give him a partial answer, not not the uh information answer. So context is uh information answer. So context is uh information answer. So context is everything. And I also find that the way everything. And I also find that the way everything. And I also find that the way I answer to workers in the workplace is I answer to workers in the workplace is I answer to workers in the workplace is very different from the way I answer very different from the way I answer very different from the way I answer high schoolers on say a ski camp. So high schoolers on say a ski camp. So high schoolers on say a ski camp. So context is very important. Anyway,

context is very important. Anyway, context is very important. Anyway, that's enough from me. I'll hand it over that's enough from me. I'll hand it over that's enough from me. I'll hand it over to Rebecca. Oh, that was less than 10 to Rebecca. Oh, that was less than 10 to Rebecca. Oh, that was less than 10 minutes. I was I was just sitting back minutes. I was I was just sitting back minutes. I was I was just sitting back and enjoying myself here. I'm going to and enjoying myself here. I'm going to and enjoying myself here. I'm going to stand to make Sam feel extra short stand to make Sam feel extra short stand to make Sam feel extra short because, you know, it's good to good to because, you know, it's good to good to because, you know, it's good to good to put men in their place sometimes. put men in their place sometimes. put men in their place sometimes. Um, I was at a kids birthday party a Um, I was at a kids birthday party a Um, I was at a kids birthday party a couple of weekends ago and I was talking couple of weekends ago and I was talking couple of weekends ago and I was talking with a woman whose son was friends with with a woman whose son was friends with with a woman whose son was friends with the the host of the party. We're having the the host of the party. We're having the the host of the party. We're having a great conversation. and she'd been a great conversation. and she'd been a great conversation. and she'd been raised sort of loosely Catholic and had raised sort of loosely Catholic and had raised sort of loosely Catholic and had not been in church in in some time, you not been in church in in some time, you not been in church in in some time, you know, many years, but was clearly sort know, many years, but was clearly sort know, many years, but was clearly sort of feeling the loss of something and and of feeling the loss of something and and of feeling the loss of something and and was interested and we were having a kind was interested and we were having a kind was interested and we were having a kind of spiritual conversation and I was able of spiritual conversation and I was able of spiritual conversation and I was able to to share pieces of the gospel with to to share pieces of the gospel with to to share pieces of the gospel with her. And then I said, "Hey, if you're her. And then I said, "Hey, if you're her. And then I said, "Hey, if you're ever interested in coming to church, we ever interested in coming to church, we ever interested in coming to church, we would love to have you come to our would love to have you come to our would love to have you come to our church." And she said, "Can I ask you a church." And she said, "Can I ask you a church." And she said, "Can I ask you a blunt question?" I said, "Yeah." She blunt question?" I said, "Yeah." She blunt question?" I said, "Yeah." She said, "Is your cl church inclusive of said, "Is your cl church inclusive of said, "Is your cl church inclusive of queer people?" And I people?" And I said, "I'm going to give you a long said, "I'm going to give you a long said, "I'm going to give you a long answer and a short answer and a short answer and a short answer because that's the question, answer because that's the question, answer because that's the question, right? I think many of us in in this right? I think many of us in in this right? I think many of us in in this room, especially if you live like I do room, especially if you live like I do room, especially if you live like I do in uh the the wilds of the northeast of in uh the the wilds of the northeast of in uh the the wilds of the northeast of of the US, I'm in the People's Republic of the US, I'm in the People's Republic of the US, I'm in the People's Republic of Cambridge up near Boston, um where of Cambridge up near Boston, um where of Cambridge up near Boston, um where that is going to be the question that that is going to be the question that that is going to be the question that I'm going to be asked by pretty much I'm going to be asked by pretty much I'm going to be asked by pretty much every um non-Christian neighbor or every um non-Christian neighbor or every um non-Christian neighbor or colleague or or sort of fellow parent at colleague or or sort of fellow parent at colleague or or sort of fellow parent at school. Um I'm okay with your church so school. Um I'm okay with your church so school. Um I'm okay with your church so long as it is inclusive of queer people, long as it is inclusive of queer people, long as it is inclusive of queer people, but as soon as you tell me your church

but as soon as you tell me your church but as soon as you tell me your church is not inclusive of queer people, I'm is not inclusive of queer people, I'm is not inclusive of queer people, I'm out. And and there's a temptation, I out. And and there's a temptation, I out. And and there's a temptation, I think, for those of us who who are think, for those of us who who are think, for those of us who who are followers of Jesus and wanting people to followers of Jesus and wanting people to followers of Jesus and wanting people to know Jesus, there's a temptation for us know Jesus, there's a temptation for us know Jesus, there's a temptation for us to sort of dread that question and for to sort of dread that question and for to sort of dread that question and for us to think, "Oh, if only I can kind of us to think, "Oh, if only I can kind of us to think, "Oh, if only I can kind of circumvent around the edges of that circumvent around the edges of that circumvent around the edges of that question because I I don't I don't want question because I I don't I don't want question because I I don't I don't want to tell people the brutal truth that my to tell people the brutal truth that my to tell people the brutal truth that my church in fact upholds Christian sexual church in fact upholds Christian sexual church in fact upholds Christian sexual ethics and therefore believes that sex ethics and therefore believes that sex ethics and therefore believes that sex only belongs in marriage between one man only belongs in marriage between one man only belongs in marriage between one man and one woman." So, what am I going to and one woman." So, what am I going to and one woman." So, what am I going to do when I get that question? Am I going do when I get that question? Am I going do when I get that question? Am I going to sort of dread it? Am I going to try to sort of dread it? Am I going to try to sort of dread it? Am I going to try and sort of shove it under the carpet? and sort of shove it under the carpet? and sort of shove it under the carpet? I'm going to try and sort of him and h I'm going to try and sort of him and h I'm going to try and sort of him and h and distract to a different topic of and distract to a different topic of and distract to a different topic of conversation. And I get that conversation. And I get that conversation. And I get that temptation. But instead, I think that temptation. But instead, I think that temptation. But instead, I think that question is actually a wonderful gospel question is actually a wonderful gospel question is actually a wonderful gospel opportunity. And I'm going to tell you opportunity. And I'm going to tell you opportunity. And I'm going to tell you how I answered it in in that instance how I answered it in in that instance how I answered it in in that instance and then how I answered a similar and then how I answered a similar and then how I answered a similar question in in another instance just as question in in another instance just as question in in another instance just as sort of a flavor of of some of the sort of a flavor of of some of the sort of a flavor of of some of the things that that I've ended up doing in things that that I've ended up doing in things that that I've ended up doing in in the wilds of of Cambridge, in the wilds of of Cambridge, in the wilds of of Cambridge, Massachusetts. So, in this particular Massachusetts. So, in this particular Massachusetts. So, in this particular instance, I I knew that she was wanting instance, I I knew that she was wanting instance, I I knew that she was wanting to sort my church into one camp or to sort my church into one camp or to sort my church into one camp or another.

another. another. So, what I said to her was, you know, So, what I said to her was, you know, So, what I said to her was, you know, number one, I'm somebody I've been a number one, I'm somebody I've been a number one, I'm somebody I've been a Christian as long as I can remember. I Christian as long as I can remember. I Christian as long as I can remember. I said, I've always actually been said, I've always actually been said, I've always actually been attracted to other women. I said, I have attracted to other women. I said, I have attracted to other women. I said, I have a dear friend at our church who became a a dear friend at our church who became a a dear friend at our church who became a Christian after her girlfriend at Yale Christian after her girlfriend at Yale Christian after her girlfriend at Yale broke up with her. Um, she had broke up with her. Um, she had broke up with her. Um, she had previously identified as atheist and she previously identified as atheist and she previously identified as atheist and she had number of same-sex sexual had number of same-sex sexual had number of same-sex sexual relationships and then she um became a relationships and then she um became a relationships and then she um became a follower of Jesus. I have another friend follower of Jesus. I have another friend follower of Jesus. I have another friend who who recently just 18 months ago who who recently just 18 months ago who who recently just 18 months ago became a Christian and started coming to became a Christian and started coming to became a Christian and started coming to our church. She has lesbian tattoos on our church. She has lesbian tattoos on our church. She has lesbian tattoos on her leg from the period when she was her leg from the period when she was her leg from the period when she was identifying um as a lesbian and and identifying um as a lesbian and and identifying um as a lesbian and and exclusively dating women. I said, exclusively dating women. I said, exclusively dating women. I said, "There's another dear friend of mine at "There's another dear friend of mine at "There's another dear friend of mine at church who's a single man who were he church who's a single man who were he church who's a single man who were he not a Christian would almost certainly not a Christian would almost certainly not a Christian would almost certainly be married legally to somebody of of the be married legally to somebody of of the be married legally to somebody of of the same sex." And I said, "I can go on and same sex." And I said, "I can go on and same sex." And I said, "I can go on and on and on with this with this list." on and on with this with this list." on and on with this with this list." I said, ' But our church believes in I said, ' But our church believes in I said, ' But our church believes in some crazy things, like the fact that some crazy things, like the fact that some crazy things, like the fact that Jesus rose from the dead and like the Jesus rose from the dead and like the Jesus rose from the dead and like the fact that sex only belongs in male fact that sex only belongs in male fact that sex only belongs in male female female female marriage. I think sometimes, friends, marriage. I think sometimes, friends, marriage. I think sometimes, friends, when when we're faced with a question when when we're faced with a question when when we're faced with a question that puts us at odds with the culture that puts us at odds with the culture that puts us at odds with the culture around us, we're tempted to sort of make around us, we're tempted to sort of make around us, we're tempted to sort of make our Christianity fit our Christianity fit our Christianity fit in. When in fact, if if you look at any in. When in fact, if if you look at any in. When in fact, if if you look at any element of what we're saying from a element of what we're saying from a element of what we're saying from a Christian perspective, it's it's it's Christian perspective, it's it's it's Christian perspective, it's it's it's craziness, right? It's wild claims like craziness, right? It's wild claims like craziness, right? It's wild claims like this this first century Jewish man who this this first century Jewish man who this this first century Jewish man who died on a cross was raised from the dead died on a cross was raised from the dead died on a cross was raised from the dead on the third day afterwards. Like he on the third day afterwards. Like he on the third day afterwards. Like he will be the judge of the living and the will be the judge of the living and the will be the judge of the living and the dead at the end of time. Like it's dead at the end of time. Like it's dead at the end of time. Like it's through him that God created the

through him that God created the through him that God created the universe in the first place. Like this universe in the first place. Like this universe in the first place. Like this is this is crazy stuff. is this is crazy stuff. is this is crazy stuff. But the reality is our skeptical friends But the reality is our skeptical friends But the reality is our skeptical friends and colleagues and neighbors and family and colleagues and neighbors and family and colleagues and neighbors and family members, they might think that they are members, they might think that they are members, they might think that they are standing on sort of very solid secular standing on sort of very solid secular standing on sort of very solid secular ground and looking over at us Christians ground and looking over at us Christians ground and looking over at us Christians on our crazy sort of weird flaky ground on our crazy sort of weird flaky ground on our crazy sort of weird flaky ground when in fact they're they're like the when in fact they're they're like the when in fact they're they're like the the person in the cartoon who's sort of the person in the cartoon who's sort of the person in the cartoon who's sort of run off the edge of the cliff and run off the edge of the cliff and run off the edge of the cliff and doesn't realize it yet. I'm not going to doesn't realize it yet. I'm not going to doesn't realize it yet. I'm not going to risk my breaking my legs by doing it. risk my breaking my legs by doing it. risk my breaking my legs by doing it. You know those cartoons where you see You know those cartoons where you see You know those cartoons where you see the sort of the run and they actually the sort of the run and they actually the sort of the run and they actually get quite a long way off the edge of the get quite a long way off the edge of the get quite a long way off the edge of the cliff before they start falling down cliff before they start falling down cliff before they start falling down because until they look down they don't because until they look down they don't because until they look down they don't realize there's no ground beneath their realize there's no ground beneath their realize there's no ground beneath their feet. So, so if I think about that feet. So, so if I think about that feet. So, so if I think about that question is my church inclusive of of question is my church inclusive of of question is my church inclusive of of queer people and there are various sort queer people and there are various sort queer people and there are various sort of different formulations that that of different formulations that that of different formulations that that could have been asked but we all you could have been asked but we all you could have been asked but we all you know know what that question is about. know know what that question is about. know know what that question is about. There there are some assumptions that There there are some assumptions that There there are some assumptions that are lying under that question that are are lying under that question that are are lying under that question that are actually Christian actually Christian actually Christian assumptions. Now that may seem very assumptions. Now that may seem very assumptions. Now that may seem very strange thing to say given that the the strange thing to say given that the the strange thing to say given that the the place that that question is coming from place that that question is coming from place that that question is coming from is in many ways a sort of anti-Christian is in many ways a sort of anti-Christian is in many ways a sort of anti-Christian place but the person who's asking me place but the person who's asking me place but the person who's asking me that question I know that they are going that question I know that they are going that question I know that they are going to assume that all human beings are to assume that all human beings are to assume that all human beings are fundamentally morally fundamentally morally fundamentally morally equal and that they think that it's equal and that they think that it's equal and that they think that it's actually wrong for the strong and the actually wrong for the strong and the actually wrong for the strong and the rich and the powerful to trample on the rich and the powerful to trample on the rich and the powerful to trample on the weak and the poor and the marginalized.

weak and the poor and the marginalized. weak and the poor and the marginalized. And I'm going to know that that that And I'm going to know that that that And I'm going to know that that that they think that men and women are they think that men and women are they think that men and women are fundamentally equal in fundamentally equal in fundamentally equal in value. And I'm going to know that value. And I'm going to know that value. And I'm going to know that they're going to have all sorts of sort they're going to have all sorts of sort they're going to have all sorts of sort of beliefs about the importance of of beliefs about the importance of of beliefs about the importance of sexual sexual sexual consent. And I I know that they're that consent. And I I know that they're that consent. And I I know that they're that they're almost certainly behind that they're almost certainly behind that they're almost certainly behind that question as well going to have some question as well going to have some question as well going to have some loaded in some deep concerns about the loaded in some deep concerns about the loaded in some deep concerns about the ways in which Christians have sometimes ways in which Christians have sometimes ways in which Christians have sometimes treated people who identify as as gay or treated people who identify as as gay or treated people who identify as as gay or lesbian. lesbian. lesbian. And actually all of those concerns come And actually all of those concerns come And actually all of those concerns come from a Christian from a Christian from a Christian place because if we pull Christianity place because if we pull Christianity place because if we pull Christianity out from the foundation and if we say out from the foundation and if we say out from the foundation and if we say okay like let's imagine that there is no okay like let's imagine that there is no okay like let's imagine that there is no God and let's imagine that Jesus isn't God and let's imagine that Jesus isn't God and let's imagine that Jesus isn't who he claims to be and then let's look who he claims to be and then let's look who he claims to be and then let's look look at sort of the history of thought look at sort of the history of thought look at sort of the history of thought we'll realize that our ideas of we'll realize that our ideas of we'll realize that our ideas of universal human equality our our ideas universal human equality our our ideas universal human equality our our ideas of of men and women being fundamentally of of men and women being fundamentally of of men and women being fundamentally morally equal our our deep belief that morally equal our our deep belief that morally equal our our deep belief that rape is wrong. Our our our beliefs about rape is wrong. Our our our beliefs about rape is wrong. Our our our beliefs about the care for for minorities and those the care for for minorities and those the care for for minorities and those who who are oppressed and marginalized, who who are oppressed and marginalized, who who are oppressed and marginalized, those actually come from those actually come from those actually come from Jesus. And that's not only sort of a a Jesus. And that's not only sort of a a Jesus. And that's not only sort of a a curious fact from history, but actually curious fact from history, but actually curious fact from history, but actually today, if you're trying to ground those today, if you're trying to ground those today, if you're trying to ground those beliefs philosophically without Jesus, beliefs philosophically without Jesus, beliefs philosophically without Jesus, you are going to really really struggle you are going to really really struggle you are going to really really struggle because if there if there is no God, because if there if there is no God, because if there if there is no God, then you and I are at best mammals.

then you and I are at best mammals. then you and I are at best mammals. We're really nothing more than atoms and We're really nothing more than atoms and We're really nothing more than atoms and molecules. molecules. molecules. Nobody looks at a mammal and starts sort Nobody looks at a mammal and starts sort Nobody looks at a mammal and starts sort of trying to legislate their their of trying to legislate their their of trying to legislate their their sexual sexual sexual ethics. Rape is very common in the ethics. Rape is very common in the ethics. Rape is very common in the animal world and nobody has a a problem. animal world and nobody has a a problem. animal world and nobody has a a problem. We we don't we don't expect animals, We we don't we don't expect animals, We we don't we don't expect animals, pure animals, mere animals, to live pure animals, mere animals, to live pure animals, mere animals, to live according to what turn out to be according to what turn out to be according to what turn out to be Christian ethics. Christian ethics. Christian ethics. And so as I as I'm talking with a a And so as I as I'm talking with a a And so as I as I'm talking with a a friend or or a new connection who has a friend or or a new connection who has a friend or or a new connection who has a whole bunch of actually kind of whole bunch of actually kind of whole bunch of actually kind of Christian ethics loaded into their their Christian ethics loaded into their their Christian ethics loaded into their their arsenal, I can I can help them to see, arsenal, I can I can help them to see, arsenal, I can I can help them to see, oh, your your beliefs on these questions oh, your your beliefs on these questions oh, your your beliefs on these questions have actually come from Christianity. have actually come from Christianity. have actually come from Christianity. And if we take God out of the equation, And if we take God out of the equation, And if we take God out of the equation, then we don't have a more moral then we don't have a more moral then we don't have a more moral universe. We don't have greater equality universe. We don't have greater equality universe. We don't have greater equality and justice and love. and justice and love. and justice and love. We actually have, as as my fellow We actually have, as as my fellow We actually have, as as my fellow countryman Richard Dawkins puts it, a countryman Richard Dawkins puts it, a countryman Richard Dawkins puts it, a universe that has precisely the universe that has precisely the universe that has precisely the properties we should expect if there is properties we should expect if there is properties we should expect if there is at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil at bottom no design, no purpose, no evil and no good, nothing but blind, pitiles and no good, nothing but blind, pitiles and no good, nothing but blind, pitiles indifference. So that's sort of one. I'm indifference. So that's sort of one. I'm indifference. So that's sort of one. I'm not saying I would launch all of that not saying I would launch all of that not saying I would launch all of that onto the one person who's just asked me onto the one person who's just asked me onto the one person who's just asked me that question. You know, we sort of that question. You know, we sort of that question. You know, we sort of start a little piece here. But it's start a little piece here. But it's start a little piece here. But it's easy, I think, for us as Christians to easy, I think, for us as Christians to easy, I think, for us as Christians to feel sort of intimidated by by the idea feel sort of intimidated by by the idea feel sort of intimidated by by the idea that everybody around us is probably a that everybody around us is probably a that everybody around us is probably a sort of highly educated skeptic. And sort of highly educated skeptic. And sort of highly educated skeptic. And they're standing on this very solid they're standing on this very solid they're standing on this very solid ground and we're kind of clinging on ground and we're kind of clinging on ground and we're kind of clinging on flimsily to something that's probably, flimsily to something that's probably, flimsily to something that's probably, you know, hard to justify under our feet you know, hard to justify under our feet you know, hard to justify under our feet and asking them to believe in crazy and asking them to believe in crazy and asking them to believe in crazy things like that Jesus rose from the things like that Jesus rose from the things like that Jesus rose from the dead. But actually, that the ground

dead. But actually, that the ground dead. But actually, that the ground under our most secular friends is is under our most secular friends is is under our most secular friends is is often far more fractured than they often far more fractured than they often far more fractured than they realize. and the basis even for their realize. and the basis even for their realize. and the basis even for their most deeply held beliefs turns out to be most deeply held beliefs turns out to be most deeply held beliefs turns out to be a pure illusion. Another sort of area that we illusion. Another sort of area that we might encounter this this this question might encounter this this this question might encounter this this this question and I think this um understanding of the and I think this um understanding of the and I think this um understanding of the the frail ground on which our friends the frail ground on which our friends the frail ground on which our friends are standing can be helpful to us is are standing can be helpful to us is are standing can be helpful to us is around the pro-life around the pro-life around the pro-life questions. You know, there are many questions. You know, there are many questions. You know, there are many people again in Cambridge, people again in Cambridge, people again in Cambridge, Massachusetts, where I live, who think Massachusetts, where I live, who think Massachusetts, where I live, who think that in order to be pro-women, you must that in order to be pro-women, you must that in order to be pro-women, you must also be also be also be pro-choice. And that in fact, it is a is pro-choice. And that in fact, it is a is pro-choice. And that in fact, it is a is a terrible assault on women's rights to a terrible assault on women's rights to a terrible assault on women's rights to say that somebody who is unintentionally say that somebody who is unintentionally say that somebody who is unintentionally pregnant does not have the right to pregnant does not have the right to pregnant does not have the right to abort their abort their abort their child. And again, in that kind of child. And again, in that kind of child. And again, in that kind of conversation, I'd want to raise the conversation, I'd want to raise the conversation, I'd want to raise the stakes and I want to say, "Yeah, do you stakes and I want to say, "Yeah, do you stakes and I want to say, "Yeah, do you know what? If there is no God, and if know what? If there is no God, and if know what? If there is no God, and if Jesus isn't the son of God who came into Jesus isn't the son of God who came into Jesus isn't the son of God who came into the world and died on the cross and was the world and died on the cross and was the world and died on the cross and was supposedly raised to life so that you supposedly raised to life so that you supposedly raised to life so that you and I could live in everlasting love and I could live in everlasting love and I could live in everlasting love with him, then yeah, the baby in a with him, then yeah, the baby in a with him, then yeah, the baby in a mother's womb is just a collection of mother's womb is just a collection of mother's womb is just a collection of atoms and molecules, just fetal atoms and molecules, just fetal atoms and molecules, just fetal tissue. But if there is no God, and if tissue. But if there is no God, and if tissue. But if there is no God, and if Jesus isn't God's son, if he didn't die Jesus isn't God's son, if he didn't die Jesus isn't God's son, if he didn't die on a cross and wasn't raised from the on a cross and wasn't raised from the on a cross and wasn't raised from the dead, and if he is not returning to dead, and if he is not returning to dead, and if he is not returning to judge us one day, then that's just what judge us one day, then that's just what judge us one day, then that's just what the mother is as well.

the mother is as well. the mother is as well. That's just what I am. That's just what That's just what I am. That's just what That's just what I am. That's just what you you you are. And again, we have no basis for are. And again, we have no basis for are. And again, we have no basis for saying that that rape is wrong. We have saying that that rape is wrong. We have saying that that rape is wrong. We have no basis for saying that infanticide is no basis for saying that infanticide is no basis for saying that infanticide is wrong. We have no basis for our our wrong. We have no basis for our our wrong. We have no basis for our our deepest moral beliefs and our longings deepest moral beliefs and our longings deepest moral beliefs and our longings and yearnings for justice if Jesus isn't and yearnings for justice if Jesus isn't and yearnings for justice if Jesus isn't who he claims to who he claims to who he claims to be. Think about the question of be. Think about the question of be. Think about the question of suffering, which Sam has raised. And suffering, which Sam has raised. And suffering, which Sam has raised. And that's a question that will almost that's a question that will almost that's a question that will almost inevitably come up with somebody who inevitably come up with somebody who inevitably come up with somebody who you're talking to regardless of their you're talking to regardless of their you're talking to regardless of their educational background or or their life educational background or or their life educational background or or their life circumstances. At some point, they will circumstances. At some point, they will circumstances. At some point, they will find themselves asking you, "Well, you find themselves asking you, "Well, you find themselves asking you, "Well, you claim there is a loving and powerful claim there is a loving and powerful claim there is a loving and powerful God. How can that loving and powerful God. How can that loving and powerful God. How can that loving and powerful God allow all the suffering we see in God allow all the suffering we see in God allow all the suffering we see in the the the world?" And that can feel again like a a world?" And that can feel again like a a world?" And that can feel again like a a a really hard question for a Christian a really hard question for a Christian a really hard question for a Christian to answer because we are making a crazy to answer because we are making a crazy to answer because we are making a crazy claim about a loving and powerful God in claim about a loving and powerful God in claim about a loving and powerful God in the face of all of this suffering. So the face of all of this suffering. So the face of all of this suffering. So let's look at the alternative for a let's look at the alternative for a let's look at the alternative for a second and imagine there is no God. second and imagine there is no God. second and imagine there is no God. Imagine Jesus isn't who he claims to Imagine Jesus isn't who he claims to Imagine Jesus isn't who he claims to be. The suffering's still there, but be. The suffering's still there, but be. The suffering's still there, but there is no hope. There is no meaning.

there is no hope. There is no meaning. there is no hope. There is no meaning. There is no moral value to There is no moral value to There is no moral value to anything. There is there's nothing but anything. There is there's nothing but anything. There is there's nothing but blind pitilous indifference. blind pitilous indifference. blind pitilous indifference. But if not only there is a creator God, But if not only there is a creator God, But if not only there is a creator God, but that that creator God has perfectly but that that creator God has perfectly but that that creator God has perfectly revealed himself in the first century revealed himself in the first century revealed himself in the first century Jewish man known as Jesus of Nazareth Jewish man known as Jesus of Nazareth Jewish man known as Jesus of Nazareth who died on a cross for love of you and who died on a cross for love of you and who died on a cross for love of you and me. Then suffering and love are at the me. Then suffering and love are at the me. Then suffering and love are at the center of the Christian faith. And we center of the Christian faith. And we center of the Christian faith. And we may not have a sort of glib answer to may not have a sort of glib answer to may not have a sort of glib answer to the circumstances of the person's life the circumstances of the person's life the circumstances of the person's life that we're talking to. We may not be that we're talking to. We may not be that we're talking to. We may not be able to answer all their questions about able to answer all their questions about able to answer all their questions about how the the God of love allows the how the the God of love allows the how the the God of love allows the suffering that they see. But we know for suffering that they see. But we know for suffering that they see. But we know for sure that it's not that God doesn't sure that it's not that God doesn't sure that it's not that God doesn't care. We have in Jesus a man of sorrows care. We have in Jesus a man of sorrows care. We have in Jesus a man of sorrows who is acquainted with with grief. We who is acquainted with with grief. We who is acquainted with with grief. We have the the the most powerful man who have the the the most powerful man who have the the the most powerful man who ever lived dying the most painful death ever lived dying the most painful death ever lived dying the most painful death ever died for love. And if somebody ever died for love. And if somebody ever died for love. And if somebody deeply cares about the suffering in the deeply cares about the suffering in the deeply cares about the suffering in the world and if somebody is deeply world and if somebody is deeply world and if somebody is deeply experiencing suffering in their own experiencing suffering in their own experiencing suffering in their own lives, that is a savior to point them lives, that is a savior to point them lives, that is a savior to point them to.

to. to. I'm going to have you guys come up and I'm going to have you guys come up and I'm going to have you guys come up and ask ask some questions um just in a ask ask some questions um just in a ask ask some questions um just in a couple of minutes. But I guess what I couple of minutes. But I guess what I couple of minutes. But I guess what I would want to say as we as we think would want to say as we as we think would want to say as we as we think about engaging our most skeptical about engaging our most skeptical about engaging our most skeptical friends or colleagues or family members friends or colleagues or family members friends or colleagues or family members or uh neighbors or or enemies at least or uh neighbors or or enemies at least or uh neighbors or or enemies at least on their side toward on their side toward on their side toward us. let let's not assume that that they us. let let's not assume that that they us. let let's not assume that that they have a solid firm foundation that have a solid firm foundation that have a solid firm foundation that they're currently standing they're currently standing they're currently standing on and let's let's raise the on and let's let's raise the on and let's let's raise the stakes. Let's go straight to to Jesus in stakes. Let's go straight to to Jesus in stakes. Let's go straight to to Jesus in these in these conversations. Let's go these in these conversations. Let's go these in these conversations. Let's go straight to the straight to the straight to the gospel because actually if if we're not gospel because actually if if we're not gospel because actually if if we're not going straight to the going straight to the going straight to the gospel, then we're not ultimately gospel, then we're not ultimately gospel, then we're not ultimately providing anything meaningfully providing anything meaningfully providing anything meaningfully Christian in response to their Christian in response to their Christian in response to their questions. questions. questions. And we we'll find if we start looking at And we we'll find if we start looking at And we we'll find if we start looking at all of these questions that that come up all of these questions that that come up all of these questions that that come up um sort of most often in our in our um sort of most often in our in our um sort of most often in our in our conversations, the kinds of questions conversations, the kinds of questions conversations, the kinds of questions that we honestly dread and find hard to that we honestly dread and find hard to that we honestly dread and find hard to respond to, we'll find that actually the respond to, we'll find that actually the respond to, we'll find that actually the only really satisfying response is a only really satisfying response is a only really satisfying response is a Jesus centered Jesus centered Jesus centered one. So I said I I'd share one more one. So I said I I'd share one more one. So I said I I'd share one more story of times when people have asked me story of times when people have asked me story of times when people have asked me like, "What do you believe about samesex like, "What do you believe about samesex like, "What do you believe about samesex sexual relationships?" which again is sexual relationships?" which again is sexual relationships?" which again is is, you know, very much just the the is, you know, very much just the the is, you know, very much just the the current um question that will will most current um question that will will most current um question that will will most often happen to me in in the place where often happen to me in in the place where often happen to me in in the place where I'm I'm I'm located. And one of the things I say is located. And one of the things I say is located. And one of the things I say is that listen, Christian sexual ethics is that listen, Christian sexual ethics is that listen, Christian sexual ethics is much weirder than you much weirder than you much weirder than you think. It's not just that I believe that think. It's not just that I believe that think. It's not just that I believe that sex only belongs in marriage between one sex only belongs in marriage between one sex only belongs in marriage between one man and one woman, but I believe this is man and one woman, but I believe this is man and one woman, but I believe this is all about a all about a all about a metaphor. According to the Bible, God

metaphor. According to the Bible, God metaphor. According to the Bible, God created male and female. that he created created male and female. that he created created male and female. that he created sex and marriage in order to tell us sex and marriage in order to tell us sex and marriage in order to tell us about Jesus's love for his people and about Jesus's love for his people and about Jesus's love for his people and the one flesh union between Jesus and the one flesh union between Jesus and the one flesh union between Jesus and his his his church. So, so can I tell you about church. So, so can I tell you about church. So, so can I tell you about that? Because actually, if that's not that? Because actually, if that's not that? Because actually, if that's not true, then it doesn't matter who I'm true, then it doesn't matter who I'm true, then it doesn't matter who I'm sleeping with or who you're sleeping sleeping with or who you're sleeping sleeping with or who you're sleeping with. It doesn't matter if it's with. It doesn't matter if it's with. It doesn't matter if it's consensual or not. None of this matters consensual or not. None of this matters consensual or not. None of this matters at all. There is no right or wrong. at all. There is no right or wrong. at all. There is no right or wrong. There is no meaning and there is no There is no meaning and there is no There is no meaning and there is no truth. There is nothing but blind, truth. There is nothing but blind, truth. There is nothing but blind, pitiles indifference. And maybe, just pitiles indifference. And maybe, just pitiles indifference. And maybe, just maybe, this message of the gospel that maybe, this message of the gospel that maybe, this message of the gospel that actually puts love at the very center of actually puts love at the very center of actually puts love at the very center of the fabric of the universe is the kind the fabric of the universe is the kind the fabric of the universe is the kind of message that our secular friends are of message that our secular friends are of message that our secular friends are actually, if they only knew it, longing actually, if they only knew it, longing actually, if they only knew it, longing to to to hear. Let's have some questions. Um, so hear. Let's have some questions. Um, so hear. Let's have some questions. Um, so two microphones here and you can play two microphones here and you can play two microphones here and you can play this one one way or the other. You can this one one way or the other. You can this one one way or the other. You can either just straight up ask me and Sam a either just straight up ask me and Sam a either just straight up ask me and Sam a question that you might have been asked question that you might have been asked question that you might have been asked by a secular friend or you can ask us a by a secular friend or you can ask us a by a secular friend or you can ask us a sort of more kind of meta question sort of more kind of meta question sort of more kind of meta question that's your own. Well done for being the that's your own. Well done for being the that's your own. Well done for being the first person. I want somebody else. I'll first person. I want somebody else. I'll first person. I want somebody else. I'll just quickly jump in if anyone's coming just quickly jump in if anyone's coming just quickly jump in if anyone's coming late. There's heaps of empty seats on late. There's heaps of empty seats on late. There's heaps of empty seats on this side of the room. It's it's only this side of the room. It's it's only this side of the room. It's it's only like one/ird full on that side. Sure.

like one/ird full on that side. Sure. like one/ird full on that side. Sure. Are those who have been predestined to Are those who have been predestined to Are those who have been predestined to hell right to hate God? hell right to hate God? hell right to hate God? So, are those who are predestined to So, are those who are predestined to So, are those who are predestined to hell right to hate God? Sam, do you want hell right to hate God? Sam, do you want hell right to hate God? Sam, do you want to take that one first? Wow. The pre So, there's so many layers Wow. The pre So, there's so many layers in that question. Let me let me tease in that question. Let me let me tease in that question. Let me let me tease that apart. So, because in my context, that apart. So, because in my context, that apart. So, because in my context, it's often speaking to people who don't it's often speaking to people who don't it's often speaking to people who don't struggle with predestination, but they struggle with predestination, but they struggle with predestination, but they struggle with the idea that a god might struggle with the idea that a god might struggle with the idea that a god might predestin anyone. I point out the predestin anyone. I point out the predestin anyone. I point out the problem of predestination isn't only a problem of predestination isn't only a problem of predestination isn't only a Christian problem. the atheist actually Christian problem. the atheist actually Christian problem. the atheist actually has exactly the same problem. So for the has exactly the same problem. So for the has exactly the same problem. So for the and that's what they're now discovering and that's what they're now discovering and that's what they're now discovering in atheism. So people like Yuval Noah in atheism. So people like Yuval Noah in atheism. So people like Yuval Noah Harrari who's a secular atheist writer, Harrari who's a secular atheist writer, Harrari who's a secular atheist writer, he points out there's if there's no God he points out there's if there's no God he points out there's if there's no God and this is what he believes as an and this is what he believes as an and this is what he believes as an atheist. Everything is material atheist. Everything is material atheist. Everything is material determinism anyway. And so we have no determinism anyway. And so we have no determinism anyway. And so we have no free choice. We're determined by the free choice. We're determined by the free choice. We're determined by the neurotransmitters in our brain. It's a neurotransmitters in our brain. It's a neurotransmitters in our brain. It's a cause and effect with the atom. So, cause and effect with the atom. So, cause and effect with the atom. So, we're actually predetermined for all our we're actually predetermined for all our we're actually predetermined for all our choices if there's no God. And then we choices if there's no God. And then we choices if there's no God. And then we can throw it back to the atheist. Well, can throw it back to the atheist. Well, can throw it back to the atheist. Well, how where do we get moral how where do we get moral how where do we get moral accountability? Cuz we just have Black accountability? Cuz we just have Black accountability? Cuz we just have Black Lives Matter. We had the Me Too Lives Matter. We had the Me Too Lives Matter. We had the Me Too movement, which implies free will, moral movement, which implies free will, moral movement, which implies free will, moral accountability. So, we live as if even accountability. So, we live as if even accountability. So, we live as if even though there is predeterminism, we have though there is predeterminism, we have though there is predeterminism, we have free will and moral accountability. So free will and moral accountability. So free will and moral accountability. So there's some sort of compatibilism going there's some sort of compatibilism going there's some sort of compatibilism going in the universe for both the atheist and in the universe for both the atheist and in the universe for both the atheist and the Christian believer. So I think in

the Christian believer. So I think in the Christian believer. So I think in the end wherever we find ourselves and the end wherever we find ourselves and the end wherever we find ourselves and in this question it was hell uh we know in this question it was hell uh we know in this question it was hell uh we know that somehow even if there was that somehow even if there was that somehow even if there was predeterminism I was also accountable predeterminism I was also accountable predeterminism I was also accountable for my actions because there was a form for my actions because there was a form for my actions because there was a form of compatibilism going on. All right who of compatibilism going on. All right who of compatibilism going on. All right who do we work out who's next? We need a do we work out who's next? We need a do we work out who's next? We need a tomorrow. I think we go but we'll go tomorrow. I think we go but we'll go tomorrow. I think we go but we'll go back and back and forth. Uh thank you back and back and forth. Uh thank you back and back and forth. Uh thank you all. I'm actually a college professor in all. I'm actually a college professor in all. I'm actually a college professor in a secular university and so I really a secular university and so I really a secular university and so I really appreciate both yall's uh work. Uh it's appreciate both yall's uh work. Uh it's appreciate both yall's uh work. Uh it's been very helpful. Uh my question is been very helpful. Uh my question is been very helpful. Uh my question is really uh coming from uh more uh really uh coming from uh more uh really uh coming from uh more uh Christians in my church that have uh Christians in my church that have uh Christians in my church that have uh adult children or older children that adult children or older children that adult children or older children that have walked away from their faith. And I have walked away from their faith. And I have walked away from their faith. And I I guess I can I could come up with a I guess I can I could come up with a I guess I can I could come up with a theological answer to some of their theological answer to some of their theological answer to some of their questions, but I'm really looking more questions, but I'm really looking more questions, but I'm really looking more for a pastoral answer kind of for a pastoral answer kind of for a pastoral answer kind of contextually like you said. Uh and in contextually like you said. Uh and in contextually like you said. Uh and in one case um this family had a a a one case um this family had a a a one case um this family had a a a daughter came came to Christ real early daughter came came to Christ real early daughter came came to Christ real early brought up in the church just uh a brought up in the church just uh a brought up in the church just uh a wonderful Christian testimony and then wonderful Christian testimony and then wonderful Christian testimony and then uh she turned 30 and walked away from uh she turned 30 and walked away from uh she turned 30 and walked away from her faith um and then has embraced a her faith um and then has embraced a her faith um and then has embraced a lesbian lifestyle has married a woman lesbian lifestyle has married a woman lesbian lifestyle has married a woman and the parents are asking me you know and the parents are asking me you know and the parents are asking me you know what happened what did we do wrong why what happened what did we do wrong why what happened what did we do wrong why is God allowing this to happen uh and I is God allowing this to happen uh and I is God allowing this to happen uh and I guess just looking for counsel on how to guess just looking for counsel on how to guess just looking for counsel on how to uh to try to give them some uh to try to give them some uh to try to give them some encouragement and uh they're asking what encouragement and uh they're asking what encouragement and uh they're asking what can we do? Um she she has nothing to do can we do? Um she she has nothing to do can we do? Um she she has nothing to do with them now that cut off all with them now that cut off all with them now that cut off all relationships and yeah very tough for relationships and yeah very tough for relationships and yeah very tough for them. So just looking for some pastoral

them. So just looking for some pastoral them. So just looking for some pastoral wisdom there. Yeah, I mean a great and wisdom there. Yeah, I mean a great and wisdom there. Yeah, I mean a great and incredibly painful uh question. And as incredibly painful uh question. And as incredibly painful uh question. And as somebody with with three children, my my somebody with with three children, my my somebody with with three children, my my greatest fear is not that my kids will greatest fear is not that my kids will greatest fear is not that my kids will die young from some terrible disease or die young from some terrible disease or die young from some terrible disease or that they will encounter serious uh sort that they will encounter serious uh sort that they will encounter serious uh sort of suffering or persecution. My greatest of suffering or persecution. My greatest of suffering or persecution. My greatest fear is that they will turn away from fear is that they will turn away from fear is that they will turn away from the Lord. Um and so I, you know, feel the Lord. Um and so I, you know, feel the Lord. Um and so I, you know, feel the heartbreak of everybody in this room the heartbreak of everybody in this room the heartbreak of everybody in this room who's who's had that that experience. who's who's had that that experience. who's who's had that that experience. Um, I do think the reality that we see Um, I do think the reality that we see Um, I do think the reality that we see is in the gospels themselves, we see is in the gospels themselves, we see is in the gospels themselves, we see Jesus basically telling us that we need Jesus basically telling us that we need Jesus basically telling us that we need to be to be ready to leave our families to be to be ready to leave our families to be to be ready to leave our families in order to follow him. And I think one in order to follow him. And I think one in order to follow him. And I think one of the places that this becomes kind of of the places that this becomes kind of of the places that this becomes kind of real to us is when members of our real to us is when members of our real to us is when members of our families turn away from Jesus. Um, I families turn away from Jesus. Um, I families turn away from Jesus. Um, I think one thing we need to be really think one thing we need to be really think one thing we need to be really careful not to do is to um put people careful not to do is to um put people careful not to do is to um put people who have turned away from Jesus and um who have turned away from Jesus and um who have turned away from Jesus and um engage in like a particular kind of sin engage in like a particular kind of sin engage in like a particular kind of sin in like somehow a different category in like somehow a different category in like somehow a different category than you know if your child grew up than you know if your child grew up than you know if your child grew up turns away from Jesus and you know is turns away from Jesus and you know is turns away from Jesus and you know is very sort of politically conservative very sort of politically conservative very sort of politically conservative and lives you know a happy kind of and lives you know a happy kind of and lives you know a happy kind of family life with their husband wife and family life with their husband wife and family life with their husband wife and 2.4 four children, that person sadly is 2.4 four children, that person sadly is 2.4 four children, that person sadly is is equally far from the Lord if they is equally far from the Lord if they is equally far from the Lord if they have turned away from Jesus. And as have turned away from Jesus. And as have turned away from Jesus. And as parents, we we cannot um control the parents, we we cannot um control the parents, we we cannot um control the eternal destinies of our children. We eternal destinies of our children. We eternal destinies of our children. We can pray for them and we can love them.

can pray for them and we can love them. can pray for them and we can love them. And actually this um this jacket I'm And actually this um this jacket I'm And actually this um this jacket I'm wearing was given to me by a friend who wearing was given to me by a friend who wearing was given to me by a friend who uh started dating another woman in uh started dating another woman in uh started dating another woman in college. Um spent four years with her, college. Um spent four years with her, college. Um spent four years with her, got engaged to her. During that time, got engaged to her. During that time, got engaged to her. During that time, her parents completely cut her out of of her parents completely cut her out of of her parents completely cut her out of of their lives. actually she'd been raised their lives. actually she'd been raised their lives. actually she'd been raised in the church and then sort of she in the church and then sort of she in the church and then sort of she thought she wasn't walking away from thought she wasn't walking away from thought she wasn't walking away from Jesus when she walked into that Jesus when she walked into that Jesus when she walked into that relationship but but really meaningfully relationship but but really meaningfully relationship but but really meaningfully she was um and she uh two weeks after she was um and she uh two weeks after she was um and she uh two weeks after getting engaged actually broke off the getting engaged actually broke off the getting engaged actually broke off the engagement realized she just couldn't go engagement realized she just couldn't go engagement realized she just couldn't go through with it came to our church through with it came to our church through with it came to our church started exploring Christianity for the started exploring Christianity for the started exploring Christianity for the first time as an adult with like a first time as an adult with like a first time as an adult with like a serious earnestness and is now you know serious earnestness and is now you know serious earnestness and is now you know deeply committed follower of Jesus so deeply committed follower of Jesus so deeply committed follower of Jesus so just to say um until somebody's story is just to say um until somebody's story is just to say um until somebody's story is is over it's not over um and that we as is over it's not over um and that we as is over it's not over um and that we as as lovers of Jesus, we have something as lovers of Jesus, we have something as lovers of Jesus, we have something more precious and better than any sexual more precious and better than any sexual more precious and better than any sexual or romantic relationship is going to be or romantic relationship is going to be or romantic relationship is going to be able to offer any of us. And we need to able to offer any of us. And we need to able to offer any of us. And we need to make sure that in as much as I'm like make sure that in as much as I'm like make sure that in as much as I'm like raising my children with that, I want raising my children with that, I want raising my children with that, I want them to know um I I don't want to make them to know um I I don't want to make them to know um I I don't want to make marriage an idol to where um living as a marriage an idol to where um living as a marriage an idol to where um living as a single person following Jesus seems like single person following Jesus seems like single person following Jesus seems like a sort of impossible way to live or a a sort of impossible way to live or a a sort of impossible way to live or a sort of unfruitful um non- beautiful way sort of unfruitful um non- beautiful way sort of unfruitful um non- beautiful way to live. I want them to know that Jesus to live. I want them to know that Jesus to live. I want them to know that Jesus is actually the one relationship we is actually the one relationship we is actually the one relationship we can't live without.

can't live without. can't live without. um and to sort of bake that into them as um and to sort of bake that into them as um and to sort of bake that into them as as they grow up. But at the end of the as they grow up. But at the end of the as they grow up. But at the end of the day, only the Lord will be able to day, only the Lord will be able to day, only the Lord will be able to determine their eternal destinies. determine their eternal destinies. determine their eternal destinies. Uh hello. Um just for a little context, Uh hello. Um just for a little context, Uh hello. Um just for a little context, I have a lot of friends who um and I have a lot of friends who um and I have a lot of friends who um and myself in the past, we've struggled myself in the past, we've struggled myself in the past, we've struggled mentally like with our mental health. So mentally like with our mental health. So mentally like with our mental health. So my question is why does a loving, my question is why does a loving, my question is why does a loving, merciful and just God allow people who merciful and just God allow people who merciful and just God allow people who haven't experienced any like deep haven't experienced any like deep haven't experienced any like deep emotional trauma to like suffer in their emotional trauma to like suffer in their emotional trauma to like suffer in their own head to the point where they commit own head to the point where they commit own head to the point where they commit suicide? suicide? suicide? It's your side of the room Sam. Sure. It's your side of the room Sam. Sure. It's your side of the room Sam. Sure. Okay. Yeah. So I think for those questions of So I think for those questions of suffering what I when I answer I like to suffering what I when I answer I like to suffering what I when I answer I like to I first of I acknowledge the pain and I first of I acknowledge the pain and I first of I acknowledge the pain and then also even dig a deeper hole like I then also even dig a deeper hole like I then also even dig a deeper hole like I say yes I hear you and the problem is say yes I hear you and the problem is say yes I hear you and the problem is even worse than that cuz and then then even worse than that cuz and then then even worse than that cuz and then then for evil and suffering to exist our real for evil and suffering to exist our real for evil and suffering to exist our real struggle is that it's unfair it's struggle is that it's unfair it's struggle is that it's unfair it's undeserved it's undeserved it's undeserved it's disproportionate and and That's and and disproportionate and and That's and and disproportionate and and That's and and that's just what makes it evil and that's just what makes it evil and that's just what makes it evil and suffering and and that's exactly it. So suffering and and that's exactly it. So suffering and and that's exactly it. So CS Lewis says we can only recognize a CS Lewis says we can only recognize a CS Lewis says we can only recognize a crooked line if there's such a thing as crooked line if there's such a thing as crooked line if there's such a thing as a straight line. And so the problem can a straight line. And so the problem can a straight line. And so the problem can only exist because there is a good only exist because there is a good only exist because there is a good loving powerful fair God behind the loving powerful fair God behind the loving powerful fair God behind the universe. Because if there's no loving, universe. Because if there's no loving, universe. Because if there's no loving, powerful, good God behind the universe,

powerful, good God behind the universe, powerful, good God behind the universe, just God as well, then then we can just God as well, then then we can just God as well, then then we can explain away the problem of suffering. explain away the problem of suffering. explain away the problem of suffering. So if we believe in karma, the answer is So if we believe in karma, the answer is So if we believe in karma, the answer is well you must have done something to well you must have done something to well you must have done something to deserve the mental illness. If there is deserve the mental illness. If there is deserve the mental illness. If there is no God, then that's not suffering. no God, then that's not suffering. no God, then that's not suffering. That's just what happens in the natural That's just what happens in the natural That's just what happens in the natural world. It's not evil. It's not bad. It's world. It's not evil. It's not bad. It's world. It's not evil. It's not bad. It's not pain. It's just what happens. If we not pain. It's just what happens. If we not pain. It's just what happens. If we like in some Middle Eastern religions, like in some Middle Eastern religions, like in some Middle Eastern religions, God is powerful. Just such is the will God is powerful. Just such is the will God is powerful. Just such is the will of God. Not loving, doesn't care about of God. Not loving, doesn't care about of God. Not loving, doesn't care about the suffering and grief you're going the suffering and grief you're going the suffering and grief you're going through. Eastern religions, it's an through. Eastern religions, it's an through. Eastern religions, it's an illusion. get over it, escape it. But we illusion. get over it, escape it. But we illusion. get over it, escape it. But we say, "No, this is a real problem. It's say, "No, this is a real problem. It's say, "No, this is a real problem. It's disproportionate. It's unfair. And it's disproportionate. It's unfair. And it's disproportionate. It's unfair. And it's undeserved." And that can only mean undeserved." And that can only mean undeserved." And that can only mean there's a loving, powerful, good, fair there's a loving, powerful, good, fair there's a loving, powerful, good, fair God behind the universe. And that means God behind the universe. And that means God behind the universe. And that means I can't have it both ways. If there is I can't have it both ways. If there is I can't have it both ways. If there is such a God, as hard as it is, I just such a God, as hard as it is, I just such a God, as hard as it is, I just have to trust there's a loving, powerful have to trust there's a loving, powerful have to trust there's a loving, powerful reason behind it. And a good example is reason behind it. And a good example is reason behind it. And a good example is when I had my young child, you know, I when I had my young child, you know, I when I had my young child, you know, I take him to the doctors. He's looking my take him to the doctors. He's looking my take him to the doctors. He's looking my eyes like, "Oh, what's this? It's a car eyes like, "Oh, what's this? It's a car eyes like, "Oh, what's this? It's a car trip." Up until now, everything my trip." Up until now, everything my trip." Up until now, everything my parents have done has been loving and parents have done has been loving and parents have done has been loving and fair. And they hand them over to the fair. And they hand them over to the fair. And they hand them over to the doctor and they plunge that vaccination doctor and they plunge that vaccination doctor and they plunge that vaccination needle into your child's thigh and needle into your child's thigh and needle into your child's thigh and there's a look of horror in their eye there's a look of horror in their eye there's a look of horror in their eye like, "How could you let this happen to like, "How could you let this happen to like, "How could you let this happen to me?" But within half a second, they me?" But within half a second, they me?" But within half a second, they stop. They think, "No." And you can see stop. They think, "No." And you can see stop. They think, "No." And you can see what they're thinking. Up until now, what they're thinking. Up until now, what they're thinking. Up until now, I've had every reason to trust you. So

I've had every reason to trust you. So I've had every reason to trust you. So even though I don't understand what's even though I don't understand what's even though I don't understand what's going on, there must be a loving reason going on, there must be a loving reason going on, there must be a loving reason behind what's going on. And then we can behind what's going on. And then we can behind what's going on. And then we can go further. And John Lennox has got go further. And John Lennox has got go further. And John Lennox has got really good answers to this. John Lennox really good answers to this. John Lennox really good answers to this. John Lennox from the UK. And it's that and then from the UK. And it's that and then from the UK. And it's that and then whatever this reason is, it's so loving, whatever this reason is, it's so loving, whatever this reason is, it's so loving, so powerful that Jesus himself became so powerful that Jesus himself became so powerful that Jesus himself became one of us and suffered an unfair, one of us and suffered an unfair, one of us and suffered an unfair, disproportionate death on on the cross disproportionate death on on the cross disproportionate death on on the cross for us. And of course, we know there's for us. And of course, we know there's for us. And of course, we know there's another chapter still to come. So, I'm another chapter still to come. So, I'm another chapter still to come. So, I'm so y so old. I actually so y so old. I actually so y so old. I actually saw The Empire Strikes Back live in the saw The Empire Strikes Back live in the saw The Empire Strikes Back live in the cinema. And I remember as a little boy cinema. And I remember as a little boy cinema. And I remember as a little boy walking out at the ending, what just walking out at the ending, what just walking out at the ending, what just happened? Cuz that's where Luke loses happened? Cuz that's where Luke loses happened? Cuz that's where Luke loses his hand, hand solo's frozen, and his hand, hand solo's frozen, and his hand, hand solo's frozen, and spoiler alert, Darth Vader is Luke's spoiler alert, Darth Vader is Luke's spoiler alert, Darth Vader is Luke's father. And then you walk out. Whoa. And father. And then you walk out. Whoa. And father. And then you walk out. Whoa. And your whole world is your universe is your whole world is your universe is your whole world is your universe is turned upside down. But of course, we turned upside down. But of course, we turned upside down. But of course, we know there's another movie to come where know there's another movie to come where know there's another movie to come where all wrongs are writed and it all comes all wrongs are writed and it all comes all wrongs are writed and it all comes out well. And so there's a saying in out well. And so there's a saying in out well. And so there's a saying in Christianity, it will it will be okay in Christianity, it will it will be okay in Christianity, it will it will be okay in the end. If it's no not okay, it's not the end. If it's no not okay, it's not the end. If it's no not okay, it's not the end yet. There there's a future the end yet. There there's a future the end yet. There there's a future chapter to come. Resurrection, chapter to come. Resurrection, chapter to come. Resurrection, restoration, healing, restoration, healing, restoration, healing, and was going to say one more thing. Ah, and was going to say one more thing. Ah, and was going to say one more thing. Ah, forgotten what I was going to say. So, forgotten what I was going to say. So, forgotten what I was going to say. So, sorry about that. Yeah, we'll come back.

sorry about that. Yeah, we'll come back. sorry about that. Yeah, we'll come back. Yes, brother. Oh, well, forgive me. I Yes, brother. Oh, well, forgive me. I Yes, brother. Oh, well, forgive me. I didn't come in with a question prepared, didn't come in with a question prepared, didn't come in with a question prepared, but uh my older brother a couple years but uh my older brother a couple years but uh my older brother a couple years ago came out as agnostic. He's the only ago came out as agnostic. He's the only ago came out as agnostic. He's the only guy in our entire family that is not a guy in our entire family that is not a guy in our entire family that is not a pastor. And so, uh we've had a lot of pastor. And so, uh we've had a lot of pastor. And so, uh we've had a lot of interesting conversations. We have a interesting conversations. We have a interesting conversations. We have a beautiful open dialogue that he's beautiful open dialogue that he's beautiful open dialogue that he's expressed a lot of appreciation for. expressed a lot of appreciation for. expressed a lot of appreciation for. However, it's very difficult to have However, it's very difficult to have However, it's very difficult to have conversations about these things because conversations about these things because conversations about these things because he's extremely intelligent and he has he's extremely intelligent and he has he's extremely intelligent and he has gone down deep YouTube rabbit holes that gone down deep YouTube rabbit holes that gone down deep YouTube rabbit holes that have basically he's sending me a a full have basically he's sending me a a full have basically he's sending me a a full thesis essay with sources cited about thesis essay with sources cited about thesis essay with sources cited about why God is a god of confusion, etc., why God is a god of confusion, etc., why God is a god of confusion, etc., etc., etc. And he's consistently sending etc., etc. And he's consistently sending etc., etc. And he's consistently sending these probably once a week I get a new these probably once a week I get a new these probably once a week I get a new video where he's wanting us to walk video where he's wanting us to walk video where he's wanting us to walk through this entire and it's it's a lot. through this entire and it's it's a lot. through this entire and it's it's a lot. And in addition to that, I don't know And in addition to that, I don't know And in addition to that, I don't know that there's a an emotional desire. I that there's a an emotional desire. I that there's a an emotional desire. I think there is deep down. Uh but but think there is deep down. Uh but but think there is deep down. Uh but but he's obviously searching for something. he's obviously searching for something. he's obviously searching for something. Um but it's difficult to address these Um but it's difficult to address these Um but it's difficult to address these things whenever he's giving me something things whenever he's giving me something things whenever he's giving me something that basically is a full thesis essay that basically is a full thesis essay that basically is a full thesis essay about why uh basically the Bible is about why uh basically the Bible is about why uh basically the Bible is incorrect. And so how do you approach incorrect. And so how do you approach incorrect. And so how do you approach those kinds of conversations versus a those kinds of conversations versus a those kinds of conversations versus a one-off conversation with someone at a one-off conversation with someone at a one-off conversation with someone at a birthday party that feels easier to birthday party that feels easier to birthday party that feels easier to handle? Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sure.

handle? Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sure. handle? Honestly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, sure. Yeah. So there's a it's it's fascinating Yeah. So there's a it's it's fascinating Yeah. So there's a it's it's fascinating cuz this is a sign of the time. So maybe cuz this is a sign of the time. So maybe cuz this is a sign of the time. So maybe if I can just zoom out meta and come in if I can just zoom out meta and come in if I can just zoom out meta and come in a bit closer. So 20 years ago the a bit closer. So 20 years ago the a bit closer. So 20 years ago the questions we got was how do I know the questions we got was how do I know the questions we got was how do I know the Bible's true? What about other Bible's true? What about other Bible's true? What about other religions? The problem of suffering and religions? The problem of suffering and religions? The problem of suffering and and Tim Keller answers a lot of those in and Tim Keller answers a lot of those in and Tim Keller answers a lot of those in his the reason for God. Then 10 years his the reason for God. Then 10 years his the reason for God. Then 10 years ago most of the questions are to do with ago most of the questions are to do with ago most of the questions are to do with sex, identity, gender. So it's a ve sex, identity, gender. So it's a ve sex, identity, gender. So it's a ve they're very different questions we're they're very different questions we're they're very different questions we're suddenly getting about 10 years ago. And suddenly getting about 10 years ago. And suddenly getting about 10 years ago. And but now where we are now and people have but now where we are now and people have but now where we are now and people have phrases for it. We're post phrases for it. We're post phrases for it. We're post postChristian, not just post-Christian postChristian, not just post-Christian postChristian, not just post-Christian but post-Christian or we're post but post-Christian or we're post but post-Christian or we're post secularism or we're called secularism or we're called secularism or we're called metamodernism. So now people we metamodernism. So now people we metamodernism. So now people we deconstructed here but we haven't deconstructed here but we haven't deconstructed here but we haven't reconstructed anything to replace it reconstructed anything to replace it reconstructed anything to replace it with. So now people are searching for with. So now people are searching for with. So now people are searching for anything. So if 20 years ago we were anything. So if 20 years ago we were anything. So if 20 years ago we were debating new atheists like Dawkins, what debating new atheists like Dawkins, what debating new atheists like Dawkins, what we're dialoguing now are with people who we're dialoguing now are with people who we're dialoguing now are with people who are exploring anything UFOs, are exploring anything UFOs, are exploring anything UFOs, hallucinogenic drugs, paganism, hallucinogenic drugs, paganism, hallucinogenic drugs, paganism, witchcraft, narcissism. So this is a witchcraft, narcissism. So this is a witchcraft, narcissism. So this is a sign of post postc Christendom. There's sign of post postc Christendom. There's sign of post postc Christendom. There's a guy with a podcast and it's I'm just a guy with a podcast and it's I'm just a guy with a podcast and it's I'm just so and I just wish I could remember his so and I just wish I could remember his so and I just wish I could remember his name. I think it starts with name. I think it starts with name. I think it starts with medic. Uh, we got a medic.

Do we have Is there somebody on TGC Do we have Is there somebody on TGC staff who can do you want can do you want to do you want to go? Do they have a Do to do you want to go? Do they have a Do to do you want to go? Do they have a Do they have a doctor? You're a doctor? Sam's going to do a little doctor Sam's going to do a little doctor triaging. Um, if if we don't have triaging. Um, if if we don't have triaging. Um, if if we don't have somebody else somebody else somebody else already Um, thank you for the question. I we're Um, thank you for the question. I we're going to move to the next one just so going to move to the next one just so going to move to the next one just so that we've we're covering more folks.

that we've we're covering more folks. that we've we're covering more folks. Um, I I've just got one more thing to Um, I I've just got one more thing to Um, I I've just got one more thing to say. Sorry. Excellent. Uh, so there's a say. Sorry. Excellent. Uh, so there's a say. Sorry. Excellent. Uh, so there's a podcast I wish I could remember his podcast I wish I could remember his podcast I wish I could remember his name. I think it starts with Paul last name. I think it starts with Paul last name. I think it starts with Paul last time. A he's just he talks about time. A he's just he talks about time. A he's just he talks about post-post Christristendom and he's just post-post Christristendom and he's just post-post Christristendom and he's just put out something on how the matrix was put out something on how the matrix was put out something on how the matrix was wrong because the matrix actually wrong because the matrix actually wrong because the matrix actually introduced nostism to this generation introduced nostism to this generation introduced nostism to this generation secret hidden knowledge everything is secret hidden knowledge everything is secret hidden knowledge everything is not as it seems and that detached us not as it seems and that detached us not as it seems and that detached us from everything work and and so have a from everything work and and so have a from everything work and and so have a listen to that podcast on how the listen to that podcast on how the listen to that podcast on how the matrix was wrong because it introduced matrix was wrong because it introduced matrix was wrong because it introduced narcissism to us and narcissism is narcissism to us and narcissism is narcissism to us and narcissism is attractive attractive attractive cuz it's like you have the secret and cuz it's like you have the secret and cuz it's like you have the secret and your parents are wrong, right? They're your parents are wrong, right? They're your parents are wrong, right? They're the two most attractive things that we the two most attractive things that we the two most attractive things that we want to know. Yep. Thanks. I think it's want to know. Yep. Thanks. I think it's want to know. Yep. Thanks. I think it's their turn, right? their turn, right? their turn, right? Okay. Yes. So, thankful to have both of Okay. Yes. So, thankful to have both of Okay. Yes. So, thankful to have both of you all for this question because it you all for this question because it you all for this question because it relates to workplace apologetics and relates to workplace apologetics and relates to workplace apologetics and sexuality. Um I'm a pediatric sexuality. Um I'm a pediatric sexuality. Um I'm a pediatric endocrinologist. Uh and in our hospital endocrinologist. Uh and in our hospital endocrinologist. Uh and in our hospital system department clinic, we do have a system department clinic, we do have a system department clinic, we do have a transgender clinic. Um out of only maybe transgender clinic. Um out of only maybe transgender clinic. Um out of only maybe three of our 20 providers participate in three of our 20 providers participate in three of our 20 providers participate in that clinic. Um but there are instances that clinic. Um but there are instances that clinic. Um but there are instances where when uh patients will come in just where when uh patients will come in just where when uh patients will come in just for like an a hormone injection or so for like an a hormone injection or so for like an a hormone injection or so they'll ask one other of us to sign the they'll ask one other of us to sign the they'll ask one other of us to sign the order for it and such like that. So so order for it and such like that. So so order for it and such like that. So so far I've refused to sign the order in far I've refused to sign the order in far I've refused to sign the order in those cases. Uh and then staff will just those cases. Uh and then staff will just those cases. Uh and then staff will just find another provider to to sign off on find another provider to to sign off on find another provider to to sign off on things. Um, but I'm just wondering I'm things. Um, but I'm just wondering I'm things. Um, but I'm just wondering I'm thinking of the day when you know some

thinking of the day when you know some thinking of the day when you know some someone ask everyone knows I'm a someone ask everyone knows I'm a someone ask everyone knows I'm a Christian uh there and so when the Christian uh there and so when the Christian uh there and so when the question comes up it's like oh why why question comes up it's like oh why why question comes up it's like oh why why don't why are you refusing to sign those don't why are you refusing to sign those don't why are you refusing to sign those orders or what do you believe about this orders or what do you believe about this orders or what do you believe about this that um makes you not want to do that? that um makes you not want to do that? that um makes you not want to do that? Um just any thoughts on how to even Um just any thoughts on how to even Um just any thoughts on how to even begin that conversation? Yeah, great begin that conversation? Yeah, great begin that conversation? Yeah, great great question. I'll I'll take this great question. I'll I'll take this great question. I'll I'll take this because you took one of mine. Um you because you took one of mine. Um you because you took one of mine. Um you you're a medic. You should have I'm you're a medic. You should have I'm you're a medic. You should have I'm pediatric though. So if they're under if pediatric though. So if they're under if pediatric though. So if they're under if they're under 18 then is so one I mean they're under 18 then is so one I mean they're under 18 then is so one I mean if I was in in your situation one place if I was in in your situation one place if I was in in your situation one place I would perhaps start is actually with a I would perhaps start is actually with a I would perhaps start is actually with a report that came out in the UK about a report that came out in the UK about a report that came out in the UK about a year ago called the CAST report. I don't year ago called the CAST report. I don't year ago called the CAST report. I don't know if you're familiar with that. So as know if you're familiar with that. So as know if you're familiar with that. So as a senior um medic in the UK who was a senior um medic in the UK who was a senior um medic in the UK who was commissioned by the UK government to do commissioned by the UK government to do commissioned by the UK government to do a review of the medications that being a review of the medications that being a review of the medications that being offered especially to um youth uh sort offered especially to um youth uh sort offered especially to um youth uh sort of transidentifying young people. And it of transidentifying young people. And it of transidentifying young people. And it ended up being, as the economists put ended up being, as the economists put ended up being, as the economists put it, a a damning indictment of what has it, a a damning indictment of what has it, a a damning indictment of what has been done to perfectly otherwise sort of been done to perfectly otherwise sort of been done to perfectly otherwise sort of healthy male and female bodies of young healthy male and female bodies of young healthy male and female bodies of young people. So there's actually from a a people. So there's actually from a a people. So there's actually from a a sort of medical perspective, there are sort of medical perspective, there are sort of medical perspective, there are major questions to be asked about uh major questions to be asked about uh major questions to be asked about uh trans sort of transaffirming medications trans sort of transaffirming medications trans sort of transaffirming medications as they're usually described. from a um as they're usually described. from a um as they're usually described. from a um a not Christian but a a sort of secular a not Christian but a a sort of secular a not Christian but a a sort of secular sort of feminist perspective, there are sort of feminist perspective, there are sort of feminist perspective, there are major questions to be asked about trans major questions to be asked about trans major questions to be asked about trans ideology because once you say that um me ideology because once you say that um me ideology because once you say that um me being a woman has actually nothing to do being a woman has actually nothing to do being a woman has actually nothing to do with my anatomy to where I could, you with my anatomy to where I could, you with my anatomy to where I could, you know, Sam could be just as validly a know, Sam could be just as validly a know, Sam could be just as validly a woman as I am if he identifies as a woman as I am if he identifies as a woman as I am if he identifies as a woman, you know, the sort of mantra of

woman, you know, the sort of mantra of woman, you know, the sort of mantra of trans women are women. Um in actual trans women are women. Um in actual trans women are women. Um in actual fact, that means all you're left with is fact, that means all you're left with is fact, that means all you're left with is stereotypes. stereotypes. stereotypes. um you're left with needing to have um you're left with needing to have um you're left with needing to have actually a kind of regressive actually a kind of regressive actually a kind of regressive understanding of what a woman is that is understanding of what a woman is that is understanding of what a woman is that is sort of divorced from our bodily sort of divorced from our bodily sort of divorced from our bodily reality. And from a Christian reality. And from a Christian reality. And from a Christian perspective, we have a an understanding perspective, we have a an understanding perspective, we have a an understanding of the goodness of God making us human of the goodness of God making us human of the goodness of God making us human beings, male and female, in his image. beings, male and female, in his image. beings, male and female, in his image. Um we understand that there is a a Um we understand that there is a a Um we understand that there is a a theological weight to being a man and theological weight to being a man and theological weight to being a man and woman and that in certain context that woman and that in certain context that woman and that in certain context that men and women are called to different men and women are called to different men and women are called to different kinds of roles. We actually also have a kinds of roles. We actually also have a kinds of roles. We actually also have a lot of freedom within um our you know in lot of freedom within um our you know in lot of freedom within um our you know in light of our our bodies and our sort of light of our our bodies and our sort of light of our our bodies and our sort of culture. Um the New Testament gives us culture. Um the New Testament gives us culture. Um the New Testament gives us actually a lot of freedom to live as a actually a lot of freedom to live as a actually a lot of freedom to live as a man or a woman in a way that is not as man or a woman in a way that is not as man or a woman in a way that is not as half as constrained as people might half as constrained as people might half as constrained as people might imagine. Um, so it'd be interesting to imagine. Um, so it'd be interesting to imagine. Um, so it'd be interesting to look at the scriptures and to um give look at the scriptures and to um give look at the scriptures and to um give people a sense of like actually as a as people a sense of like actually as a as people a sense of like actually as a as a Christian I have a a fuller a Christian I have a a fuller a Christian I have a a fuller understanding what it means to be a man understanding what it means to be a man understanding what it means to be a man or a woman that's that's grounded in or a woman that's that's grounded in or a woman that's that's grounded in biology and theology and doesn't depend biology and theology and doesn't depend biology and theology and doesn't depend on a sort of stereotyped psychology to on a sort of stereotyped psychology to on a sort of stereotyped psychology to undergard it. Thank you. We're going to undergard it. Thank you. We're going to undergard it. Thank you. We're going to be rapid fire now. All right. So I want be rapid fire now. All right. So I want be rapid fire now. All right. So I want if I could go back to your first example if I could go back to your first example if I could go back to your first example about the person who asks is your church about the person who asks is your church about the person who asks is your church affirming or accepting of uh LGBT folks?

affirming or accepting of uh LGBT folks? affirming or accepting of uh LGBT folks? And if I understand your answer, it was And if I understand your answer, it was And if I understand your answer, it was help, you know, help them to see that help, you know, help them to see that help, you know, help them to see that baked into their very question are some baked into their very question are some baked into their very question are some assumptions. Yeah. That got into their assumptions. Yeah. That got into their assumptions. Yeah. That got into their head in the first place because of head in the first place because of head in the first place because of because of Christianity's effect on the because of Christianity's effect on the because of Christianity's effect on the world. But does that uh does that world. But does that uh does that world. But does that uh does that reasoning break down? Let's say that reasoning break down? Let's say that reasoning break down? Let's say that question is not being asked in the US or question is not being asked in the US or question is not being asked in the US or in in England. It's being asked on a in in England. It's being asked on a in in England. It's being asked on a college campus uh where in a in a college campus uh where in a in a college campus uh where in a in a Buddhist or in a a Hindu concept where Buddhist or in a a Hindu concept where Buddhist or in a a Hindu concept where they don't have concepts of freedom in they don't have concepts of freedom in they don't have concepts of freedom in their mind. I don't think because of their mind. I don't think because of their mind. I don't think because of Christian influence. Um and so does that Christian influence. Um and so does that Christian influence. Um and so does that reasoning apply if you take it out of a reasoning apply if you take it out of a reasoning apply if you take it out of a Christian culture? Christian culture? Christian culture? Uh yes. So that's that's a great Uh yes. So that's that's a great Uh yes. So that's that's a great question. Um you will struggle to ground question. Um you will struggle to ground question. Um you will struggle to ground our understanding of universal human our understanding of universal human our understanding of universal human equality for example from a different um equality for example from a different um equality for example from a different um religious tradition. So for example, you religious tradition. So for example, you religious tradition. So for example, you know look at Hinduism um you actually know look at Hinduism um you actually know look at Hinduism um you actually going to really struggle to to ground going to really struggle to to ground going to really struggle to to ground that that sort of belief. the people who that that sort of belief. the people who that that sort of belief. the people who are asking those questions in a in a are asking those questions in a in a are asking those questions in a in a western context are sort of preloaded western context are sort of preloaded western context are sort of preloaded with a lot of Christian understanding with a lot of Christian understanding with a lot of Christian understanding even though they don't they don't even though they don't they don't even though they don't they don't realize it. Um, it is certainly the case realize it. Um, it is certainly the case realize it. Um, it is certainly the case that in a different cultural context, that in a different cultural context, that in a different cultural context, you need to understand more of what you need to understand more of what you need to understand more of what their background beliefs were and to be their background beliefs were and to be their background beliefs were and to be able to engage from from that angle, but able to engage from from that angle, but able to engage from from that angle, but it would still come back to the same it would still come back to the same it would still come back to the same gospel reality of Christianity is is gospel reality of Christianity is is gospel reality of Christianity is is proposing something actually in the proposing something actually in the proposing something actually in the history of the world quite novel, which history of the world quite novel, which history of the world quite novel, which is that men should be expected to live is that men should be expected to live is that men should be expected to live by the same rules that women are usually by the same rules that women are usually by the same rules that women are usually expected to live by, i.e. only have sex expected to live by, i.e. only have sex expected to live by, i.e. only have sex with your husband. You know, in the with your husband. You know, in the with your husband. You know, in the Greco Roman Empire when where Greco Roman Empire when where Greco Roman Empire when where Christianity was born, it was expected Christianity was born, it was expected Christianity was born, it was expected that a free woman would only sleep with that a free woman would only sleep with that a free woman would only sleep with her husband. But for a man, it was

her husband. But for a man, it was her husband. But for a man, it was absolutely fine for him to sleep with, absolutely fine for him to sleep with, absolutely fine for him to sleep with, you know, slaves or prostitutes or any you know, slaves or prostitutes or any you know, slaves or prostitutes or any anyone who didn't count. There was a anyone who didn't count. There was a anyone who didn't count. There was a whole category of people who just didn't whole category of people who just didn't whole category of people who just didn't count. And it was it was perfectly fine count. And it was it was perfectly fine count. And it was it was perfectly fine for him to sleep with male or females for him to sleep with male or females for him to sleep with male or females people in that in that category. And people in that in that category. And people in that in that category. And Christianity says, "No, actually um same Christianity says, "No, actually um same Christianity says, "No, actually um same same sexual ethics for men and for women same sexual ethics for men and for women same sexual ethics for men and for women only in in marriage. Um monogous only in in marriage. Um monogous only in in marriage. Um monogous marriage, one man and one woman. Um, so marriage, one man and one woman. Um, so marriage, one man and one woman. Um, so that's going to be radical and sort of that's going to be radical and sort of that's going to be radical and sort of disjointed from another cultural context disjointed from another cultural context disjointed from another cultural context that doesn't have a sort of Christian that doesn't have a sort of Christian that doesn't have a sort of Christian background just as it was in the ancient background just as it was in the ancient background just as it was in the ancient world. Other side, we've got four world. Other side, we've got four world. Other side, we've got four minutes left, so it's going rapid fire. minutes left, so it's going rapid fire. minutes left, so it's going rapid fire. Okay. Um, so if if we're gathered under Okay. Um, so if if we're gathered under Okay. Um, so if if we're gathered under the gospel coalition and you know, from the gospel coalition and you know, from the gospel coalition and you know, from what I know of Christians, they believe what I know of Christians, they believe what I know of Christians, they believe Jesus freely gave himself on the cross, Jesus freely gave himself on the cross, Jesus freely gave himself on the cross, uh, and there was no exchange in return. uh, and there was no exchange in return. uh, and there was no exchange in return. Uh, why is the Gospel Coalition not Uh, why is the Gospel Coalition not Uh, why is the Gospel Coalition not allowing refunds for this event? allowing refunds for this event? allowing refunds for this event? No, that's partly tuck tongue and cheek, No, that's partly tuck tongue and cheek, No, that's partly tuck tongue and cheek, but why is the church appear to be such but why is the church appear to be such but why is the church appear to be such a transactional place sometimes when a transactional place sometimes when a transactional place sometimes when operating within the world? Uh, I operating within the world? Uh, I operating within the world? Uh, I thought you meant refunds for this thought you meant refunds for this thought you meant refunds for this specific event. I was like, Sam, we specific event. I was like, Sam, we specific event. I was like, Sam, we really bombed hard if people are wanting really bombed hard if people are wanting really bombed hard if people are wanting refunds right now.

refunds right now. refunds right now. No, just more of a No, just more of a No, just more of a um why does the church um if you have four minutes I'm sure if you have four minutes I'm sure someone behind me has a better question someone behind me has a better question someone behind me has a better question but we might do we'll bear that one in but we might do we'll bear that one in but we might do we'll bear that one in mind. Um but we might have to just Thank mind. Um but we might have to just Thank mind. Um but we might have to just Thank you. Um let's pop over here. Yep. Coming you. Um let's pop over here. Yep. Coming you. Um let's pop over here. Yep. Coming from Seattle, so the other side of the from Seattle, so the other side of the from Seattle, so the other side of the you know part of the country. Um and you know part of the country. Um and you know part of the country. Um and very intellectual. often times people very intellectual. often times people very intellectual. often times people can't accept the idea that they have no can't accept the idea that they have no can't accept the idea that they have no moral basis for their beliefs. They moral basis for their beliefs. They moral basis for their beliefs. They might identify like an evolutionary might identify like an evolutionary might identify like an evolutionary framework for their moral basis and so framework for their moral basis and so framework for their moral basis and so we end up coming to a standstill but I we end up coming to a standstill but I we end up coming to a standstill but I still want to be able to to to reach my still want to be able to to to reach my still want to be able to to to reach my co-workers. Uh any any thoughts about co-workers. Uh any any thoughts about co-workers. Uh any any thoughts about that? I mean and they're going to really that? I mean and they're going to really that? I mean and they're going to really struggle with an evolutionary framework struggle with an evolutionary framework struggle with an evolutionary framework to to undergo their actual moral to to undergo their actual moral to to undergo their actual moral beliefs. And don't take my word for beliefs. And don't take my word for beliefs. And don't take my word for that. You can look at the sort of that. You can look at the sort of that. You can look at the sort of secular folk who are examining a sort of secular folk who are examining a sort of secular folk who are examining a sort of as much morality as you can get from as much morality as you can get from as much morality as you can get from evolution and at best you can get taking evolution and at best you can get taking evolution and at best you can get taking care of your own immediate kin but not care of your own immediate kin but not care of your own immediate kin but not nothing like the expansive view of nothing like the expansive view of nothing like the expansive view of morality that we morality that we morality that we have. So I would I would point them to have. So I would I would point them to have. So I would I would point them to some secular folk who are going to some secular folk who are going to some secular folk who are going to undermine their positions.

undermine their positions. undermine their positions. Um I want to go the last one minute for Um I want to go the last one minute for Um I want to go the last one minute for another thing but can you answer that another thing but can you answer that another thing but can you answer that person's question in one minute? So uh person's question in one minute? So uh person's question in one minute? So uh most of my family are not believers. most of my family are not believers. most of my family are not believers. They know I'm a pastor obviously. Uh but They know I'm a pastor obviously. Uh but They know I'm a pastor obviously. Uh but what I find is that they avoid talking what I find is that they avoid talking what I find is that they avoid talking to me about hard topics and they to me about hard topics and they to me about hard topics and they specifically steer conversations away specifically steer conversations away specifically steer conversations away from gospel. And so my question is how from gospel. And so my question is how from gospel. And so my question is how do you answer their questions when do you answer their questions when do you answer their questions when they're not asking them? Yeah. So you they're not asking them? Yeah. So you they're not asking them? Yeah. So you need to read the book How to Talk About need to read the book How to Talk About need to read the book How to Talk About Jesus without being that guy. But it's Jesus without being that guy. But it's Jesus without being that guy. But it's done. Yeah. The art of evangelizing like done. Yeah. The art of evangelizing like done. Yeah. The art of evangelizing like a counselor. So ask questions and get a counselor. So ask questions and get a counselor. So ask questions and get them talking about their world view. All them talking about their world view. All them talking about their world view. All right. Yeah. Sorry. Fantastic. Super right. Yeah. Sorry. Fantastic. Super right. Yeah. Sorry. Fantastic. Super quick. Um, greetings from Barcelona. I'm quick. Um, greetings from Barcelona. I'm quick. Um, greetings from Barcelona. I'm from Y from Y from Y and sorry for my accent. I hope you and sorry for my accent. I hope you and sorry for my accent. I hope you understand my question. understand my question. understand my question. Um, I've been working in Peru for um, a Um, I've been working in Peru for um, a Um, I've been working in Peru for um, a nonprofit Christian organization in the nonprofit Christian organization in the nonprofit Christian organization in the social work area and we're in a point social work area and we're in a point social work area and we're in a point that we are switching our service that we are switching our service that we are switching our service towards foster care much more than towards foster care much more than towards foster care much more than residential centers.

residential centers. residential centers. And I wonder how it will be when the And I wonder how it will be when the And I wonder how it will be when the government ask us to work with government ask us to work with government ask us to work with homosexual couples for foster care and homosexual couples for foster care and homosexual couples for foster care and adoption. It could happen in Peru. It adoption. It could happen in Peru. It adoption. It could happen in Peru. It could it's happening in Barcelona in could it's happening in Barcelona in could it's happening in Barcelona in Spain. So I wonder what I will do with Spain. So I wonder what I will do with Spain. So I wonder what I will do with my conscience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hard my conscience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hard my conscience. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Hard question that honestly I don't think we question that honestly I don't think we question that honestly I don't think we can answer in 23 seconds. But thank you can answer in 23 seconds. But thank you can answer in 23 seconds. But thank you for asking it. And it it is a question, for asking it. And it it is a question, for asking it. And it it is a question, one of the underlying questions there is one of the underlying questions there is one of the underlying questions there is our our ethics when it comes to um our our ethics when it comes to um our our ethics when it comes to um church versus our ethics when it comes church versus our ethics when it comes church versus our ethics when it comes to engaging in broader sort of civil to engaging in broader sort of civil to engaging in broader sort of civil society. And there are some things we society. And there are some things we society. And there are some things we would require of believers that we would require of believers that we would require of believers that we wouldn't require of non-believers. And wouldn't require of non-believers. And wouldn't require of non-believers. And there are some things that are going to there are some things that are going to there are some things that are going to boil down to conscience issues, which is boil down to conscience issues, which is boil down to conscience issues, which is okay. Uh two two seconds to go, but I okay. Uh two two seconds to go, but I okay. Uh two two seconds to go, but I just want to say um I'm 45 years old. I just want to say um I'm 45 years old. I just want to say um I'm 45 years old. I have been trying to tell people about have been trying to tell people about have been trying to tell people about Jesus for at least 35 of those years Jesus for at least 35 of those years Jesus for at least 35 of those years both in the UK and in the northeast of both in the UK and in the northeast of both in the UK and in the northeast of the US. I have never in my life before the US. I have never in my life before the US. I have never in my life before seen more openness to the gospel around seen more openness to the gospel around seen more openness to the gospel around me in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I'm me in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I'm me in Cambridge, Massachusetts. And I'm hearing about it in the UK as well. H hearing about it in the UK as well. H hearing about it in the UK as well. H it's not connected to any sort of it's not connected to any sort of it's not connected to any sort of political movements because the UK's political movements because the UK's political movements because the UK's just had a big political change in the just had a big political change in the just had a big political change in the other direction than the US has. But other direction than the US has. But other direction than the US has. But there is an incredible gospel there is an incredible gospel there is an incredible gospel opportunity now and we need to be out opportunity now and we need to be out opportunity now and we need to be out there taking it. We need to stop there taking it. We need to stop there taking it. We need to stop assuming that everybody around us assuming that everybody around us assuming that everybody around us doesn't want to hear or that they all doesn't want to hear or that they all doesn't want to hear or that they all have the most sort of difficult have the most sort of difficult have the most sort of difficult skeptical questions. People are actually skeptical questions. People are actually skeptical questions. People are actually desperate for the gospel right now.

desperate for the gospel right now. desperate for the gospel right now. They're turning to everything else They're turning to everything else They're turning to everything else because they haven't heard about Jesus. because they haven't heard about Jesus. because they haven't heard about Jesus. Like Gen Z in particular, they're Like Gen Z in particular, they're Like Gen Z in particular, they're they're turning to tarot cards and uh they're turning to tarot cards and uh they're turning to tarot cards and uh crystals and meditation and like weird crystals and meditation and like weird crystals and meditation and like weird Amazonian sort of religious practices Amazonian sort of religious practices Amazonian sort of religious practices and drinking potions because they and drinking potions because they and drinking potions because they haven't heard the gospel and they haven't heard the gospel and they haven't heard the gospel and they haven't been invited to church and they haven't been invited to church and they haven't been invited to church and they haven't been invited into our homes. And haven't been invited into our homes. And haven't been invited into our homes. And we have literally the thing that they we have literally the thing that they we have literally the thing that they are dying for. So I would like everybody are dying for. So I would like everybody are dying for. So I would like everybody in this room to leave this place and in this room to leave this place and in this room to leave this place and just bang the doors down in your just bang the doors down in your just bang the doors down in your neighborhoods. Like talk to the other neighborhoods. Like talk to the other neighborhoods. Like talk to the other parents at at the church the the the parents at at the church the the the parents at at the church the the the school steps. Um talk to your school steps. Um talk to your school steps. Um talk to your colleagues, talk to the people who seem colleagues, talk to the people who seem colleagues, talk to the people who seem least likely to turn to Jesus. Talk to least likely to turn to Jesus. Talk to least likely to turn to Jesus. Talk to the people who identify as LGBT. Talk to the people who identify as LGBT. Talk to the people who identify as LGBT. Talk to the people who are scientists. Talk to the people who are scientists. Talk to the people who are scientists. Talk to people who come from different religious people who come from different religious people who come from different religious religious traditions because we are religious traditions because we are religious traditions because we are seeing those people coming to faith in seeing those people coming to faith in seeing those people coming to faith in Jesus. Now is the time to go on the Jesus. Now is the time to go on the Jesus. Now is the time to go on the offensive offensive offensive evangelistically. The end.