The Church Needs Men and Women to Serve Together [TGC Podcast Ep. 408]

I just want to open our conversation by I just want to open our conversation by reading a few verses to you some of the reading a few verses to you some of the reading a few verses to you some of the more beautiful verses I would argue in more beautiful verses I would argue in more beautiful verses I would argue in all of scripture and they come to us at all of scripture and they come to us at all of scripture and they come to us at the very end of the book of Romans the very end of the book of Romans the very end of the book of Romans Romans chapter 16 and here Paul under Romans chapter 16 and here Paul under Romans chapter 16 and here Paul under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the inspiration of the Holy Spirit the inspiration of the Holy Spirit writes this I commend to you our sister writes this I commend to you our sister writes this I commend to you our sister Phoebe a servant of the church at Phoebe a servant of the church at Phoebe a servant of the church at centrea that you may welcome her in the centrea that you may welcome her in the centrea that you may welcome her in the Lord in a way worthy of the Saints and Lord in a way worthy of the Saints and Lord in a way worthy of the Saints and help her in whatever she may need from help her in whatever she may need from help her in whatever she may need from you for she has been a patron of many you for she has been a patron of many you for she has been a patron of many and of myself as well greet Prisa and and of myself as well greet Prisa and and of myself as well greet Prisa and Aquilla my fellow workers in Christ Aquilla my fellow workers in Christ Aquilla my fellow workers in Christ Jesus who risked their necks for my life Jesus who risked their necks for my life Jesus who risked their necks for my life to whom not only I give thanks but all to whom not only I give thanks but all to whom not only I give thanks but all the churches of the Gentiles give thanks the churches of the Gentiles give thanks the churches of the Gentiles give thanks as well greet also the church in their as well greet also the church in their as well greet also the church in their house greet my brother my greet my house greet my brother my greet my house greet my brother my greet my beloved epenetus who was the first beloved epenetus who was the first beloved epenetus who was the first convert to Christ in Asia greet Mary who convert to Christ in Asia greet Mary who convert to Christ in Asia greet Mary who has worked hard for you greet andronicus has worked hard for you greet andronicus has worked hard for you greet andronicus and Junia my Kinsmen and my fellow and Junia my Kinsmen and my fellow and Junia my Kinsmen and my fellow prisoners they are well known to the prisoners they are well known to the prisoners they are well known to the apostles and they were in Christ before apostles and they were in Christ before apostles and they were in Christ before me greet ampliatus my beloved in the me greet ampliatus my beloved in the me greet ampliatus my beloved in the Lord greet urbanis our fellow worker in Lord greet urbanis our fellow worker in Lord greet urbanis our fellow worker in Christ and my beloved stakus greet aelis Christ and my beloved stakus greet aelis Christ and my beloved stakus greet aelis who is approved in Christ greet those who is approved in Christ greet those who is approved in Christ greet those who belong to the family of aristobulus who belong to the family of aristobulus who belong to the family of aristobulus greet my Kinsmen herodian greet those in greet my Kinsmen herodian greet those in greet my Kinsmen herodian greet those in the Lord who belong to the family of the Lord who belong to the family of the Lord who belong to the family of narcissus greet those workers in the

narcissus greet those workers in the narcissus greet those workers in the Lord triennia and trosa greet the Lord triennia and trosa greet the Lord triennia and trosa greet the Beloved persus who has worked hard in Beloved persus who has worked hard in Beloved persus who has worked hard in the Lord greet Rufus chosen in the Lord the Lord greet Rufus chosen in the Lord the Lord greet Rufus chosen in the Lord and also his mother who has been a and also his mother who has been a and also his mother who has been a mother to me as well greet asyrus fan mother to me as well greet asyrus fan mother to me as well greet asyrus fan Hermes patrobas hermis and the brothers Hermes patrobas hermis and the brothers Hermes patrobas hermis and the brothers and sisters who are with them greet and sisters who are with them greet and sisters who are with them greet fogus Julia narus and his sister and fogus Julia narus and his sister and fogus Julia narus and his sister and Olympus and all the saints who are with Olympus and all the saints who are with Olympus and all the saints who are with them greet one another with a holy kiss them greet one another with a holy kiss them greet one another with a holy kiss all the Churches of Christ greet you all the Churches of Christ greet you all the Churches of Christ greet you sister did you hear what Paul was doing sister did you hear what Paul was doing sister did you hear what Paul was doing in that text he was noting men and women in that text he was noting men and women in that text he was noting men and women together in the church he was noting together in the church he was noting together in the church he was noting their value to the church the labor that their value to the church the labor that their value to the church the labor that they had done for the sake of the they had done for the sake of the they had done for the sake of the Kingdom he was calling them out by name Kingdom he was calling them out by name Kingdom he was calling them out by name and commending them and he was giving us and commending them and he was giving us and commending them and he was giving us this beautiful picture of what the this beautiful picture of what the this beautiful picture of what the church can and should look like when you church can and should look like when you church can and should look like when you have men and women who are laboring have men and women who are laboring have men and women who are laboring together for the sake of Christ and so together for the sake of Christ and so together for the sake of Christ and so that's the place that we want to go in that's the place that we want to go in that's the place that we want to go in this conversation how can how can we this conversation how can how can we this conversation how can how can we show that in our context in our places show that in our context in our places show that in our context in our places this beauty of men and women coming this beauty of men and women coming this beauty of men and women coming together for the cause of the Gospel so together for the cause of the Gospel so together for the cause of the Gospel so let's start by talking about what let's start by talking about what let's start by talking about what complementarianism even is because of complementarianism even is because of complementarianism even is because of course in any conversation it's course in any conversation it's course in any conversation it's important to Define our terms to know important to Define our terms to know important to Define our terms to know what we're talking about especially sort what we're talking about especially sort what we're talking about especially sort of a hot to handle term like

complimentarity where God says let us complimentarity where God says let us create man humankind Mankind and our create man humankind Mankind and our create man humankind Mankind and our image male and female he created them image male and female he created them image male and female he created them and so it's this profound concept that and so it's this profound concept that and so it's this profound concept that there were two biological Sexes um there were two biological Sexes um there were two biological Sexes um distinct but distinct but distinct but overlapping um overlapping in the sense overlapping um overlapping in the sense overlapping um overlapping in the sense that you know I have more in common with that you know I have more in common with that you know I have more in common with a human male than I do with a female cat a human male than I do with a female cat a human male than I do with a female cat right so there's much that overlapping right so there's much that overlapping right so there's much that overlapping in our biological sex right but there's in our biological sex right but there's in our biological sex right but there's also distinction that there was more also distinction that there was more also distinction that there was more than one biological sex needed or used than one biological sex needed or used than one biological sex needed or used or planned by God to image him out as or planned by God to image him out as or planned by God to image him out as Creator out into the world and then Creator out into the world and then Creator out into the world and then Genesis 2 Zooms in on the creation of Genesis 2 Zooms in on the creation of Genesis 2 Zooms in on the creation of the woman and God uses this language I the woman and God uses this language I the woman and God uses this language I will make a an a help an AER and of will make a an a help an AER and of will make a an a help an AER and of course you know if you've studied it at course you know if you've studied it at course you know if you've studied it at all you know help is a excellent term all you know help is a excellent term all you know help is a excellent term but it's also a weak term it doesn't but it's also a weak term it doesn't but it's also a weak term it doesn't convey everything and so when you look convey everything and so when you look convey everything and so when you look at help in the Old Testament and at AER at help in the Old Testament and at AER at help in the Old Testament and at AER it's actually used much more of God it's actually used much more of God it's actually used much more of God himself 16 times it's used of God as our himself 16 times it's used of God as our himself 16 times it's used of God as our help God as our AER God comes alongside help God as our AER God comes alongside help God as our AER God comes alongside of us in this very strong Aid and and so of us in this very strong Aid and and so of us in this very strong Aid and and so that women were particularly um given that women were particularly um given that women were particularly um given this beautiful language of how we get to this beautiful language of how we get to this beautiful language of how we get to reflect out the god of the scriptures in reflect out the god of the scriptures in reflect out the god of the scriptures in a distinct but overlapping way with the a distinct but overlapping way with the a distinct but overlapping way with the other biological

other biological other biological sects and then in 1 Timothy 51 and2 sects and then in 1 Timothy 51 and2 sects and then in 1 Timothy 51 and2 which is a a passage kind of dear to the which is a a passage kind of dear to the which is a a passage kind of dear to the topic at hand topic at hand topic at hand Paul as he did in in Romans 16 talks Paul as he did in in Romans 16 talks Paul as he did in in Romans 16 talks about us um not you know we think of about us um not you know we think of about us um not you know we think of biological sex often as just husband and biological sex often as just husband and biological sex often as just husband and wife but he talks about the family of wife but he talks about the family of wife but he talks about the family of God as fathers and daughters and mothers God as fathers and daughters and mothers God as fathers and daughters and mothers and sons and brothers and sisters and and sons and brothers and sisters and and sons and brothers and sisters and there are many familial relationships there are many familial relationships there are many familial relationships that should be um characterizing Us in that should be um characterizing Us in that should be um characterizing Us in the body of Christ that have nothing to the body of Christ that have nothing to the body of Christ that have nothing to do around marriage it's it's the two do around marriage it's it's the two do around marriage it's it's the two biological sexes in the family of God biological sexes in the family of God biological sexes in the family of God coming together to help one another in coming together to help one another in coming together to help one another in the in Kingdom the in Kingdom the in Kingdom work work work amen amen amen amen I was just thinking to add to that amen I was just thinking to add to that amen I was just thinking to add to that just our spiritual adoption in God you just our spiritual adoption in God you just our spiritual adoption in God you know that we have God as our father and know that we have God as our father and know that we have God as our father and now we have the church as our family and now we have the church as our family and now we have the church as our family and so this beautiful picture that we have so this beautiful picture that we have so this beautiful picture that we have of men and women being made equally in of men and women being made equally in of men and women being made equally in the image of God and yet having the image of God and yet having the image of God and yet having distinctions in how they live out the distinctions in how they live out the distinctions in how they live out the work and the responsibilities God has work and the responsibilities God has work and the responsibilities God has called them called them called them to now of course there's a range of complimentarity of complimentarity of views yes and there is a variety of views yes and there is a variety of views yes and there is a variety of views and and we welcome that because we views and and we welcome that because we views and and we welcome that because we don't know everything and we learn from don't know everything and we learn from don't know everything and we learn from each other men and women uh I think the

each other men and women uh I think the each other men and women uh I think the fundamental principles however have been fundamental principles however have been fundamental principles however have been stated and I think we're all agreed on stated and I think we're all agreed on stated and I think we're all agreed on what what Wendy and Blair said that we what what Wendy and Blair said that we what what Wendy and Blair said that we are made to be equal in value before the are made to be equal in value before the are made to be equal in value before the Lord We Are All Made In His Image and Lord We Are All Made In His Image and Lord We Are All Made In His Image and yet we're made differently and I would yet we're made differently and I would yet we're made differently and I would only add that um it's important to learn only add that um it's important to learn only add that um it's important to learn to enjoy the to enjoy the to enjoy the difference so often we know just enough difference so often we know just enough difference so often we know just enough about the other gender to make jokes about the other gender to make jokes about the other gender to make jokes about them and there are some good ones about them and there are some good ones about them and there are some good ones but we're to enter into that world I but we're to enter into that world I but we're to enter into that world I mean it's amazing that the Lord made us mean it's amazing that the Lord made us mean it's amazing that the Lord made us to generous why did he do that to generous why did he do that to generous why did he do that uh there's been theological speculation uh there's been theological speculation uh there's been theological speculation you could hear Tim Keller doing this you you could hear Tim Keller doing this you you could hear Tim Keller doing this you know talking about the relationship know talking about the relationship know talking about the relationship between Father Son and Holy Spirit of between Father Son and Holy Spirit of between Father Son and Holy Spirit of one Essence equal in power and glory and one Essence equal in power and glory and one Essence equal in power and glory and yet distinct persons and God made yet distinct persons and God made yet distinct persons and God made humankind uh to be complimentary to one humankind uh to be complimentary to one humankind uh to be complimentary to one another in some ways to picture the another in some ways to picture the another in some ways to picture the Trinity then of course in marriage of Trinity then of course in marriage of Trinity then of course in marriage of course we know that the reason for that course we know that the reason for that course we know that the reason for that uh difference is to make to give us an uh difference is to make to give us an uh difference is to make to give us an analogy that shows the love of Christ analogy that shows the love of Christ analogy that shows the love of Christ for his people and the his people's for his people and the his people's for his people and the his people's Devotion to our Lord so those are the Devotion to our Lord so those are the Devotion to our Lord so those are the fundamental boundaries and you can fundamental boundaries and you can fundamental boundaries and you can imagine how many differences there are imagine how many differences there are imagine how many differences there are and that each one of our churches and that each one of our churches and that each one of our churches probably practice this a little probably practice this a little probably practice this a little differently but I think within those differently but I think within those differently but I think within those boundaries yeah so that's our sort of boundaries yeah so that's our sort of boundaries yeah so that's our sort of big picture definition but of course big picture definition but of course big picture definition but of course this is not an abstract issue is it I

this is not an abstract issue is it I this is not an abstract issue is it I mean it really comes down to each person mean it really comes down to each person mean it really comes down to each person sort of lived experience with it and so sort of lived experience with it and so sort of lived experience with it and so I know each of you have been asked to be I know each of you have been asked to be I know each of you have been asked to be on this panel because you have you have on this panel because you have you have on this panel because you have you have experiences and you have a heart around experiences and you have a heart around experiences and you have a heart around this issue so I'd just love to hear just this issue so I'd just love to hear just this issue so I'd just love to hear just super personally from each of you why super personally from each of you why super personally from each of you why are you sitting here why do you care are you sitting here why do you care are you sitting here why do you care about in Genesis 1 you know God makes Adam and in Genesis 1 you know God makes Adam and then shortly after he says it's not good then shortly after he says it's not good then shortly after he says it's not good that man should be alone you know um so that man should be alone you know um so that man should be alone you know um so I'm going to make a woman I'm going to I'm going to make a woman I'm going to I'm going to make a woman I'm going to make a helper for him and I you know a make a helper for him and I you know a make a helper for him and I you know a woman was the answer to that problem and woman was the answer to that problem and woman was the answer to that problem and so I think that there's such a benefit so I think that there's such a benefit so I think that there's such a benefit and a beauty to women and men serving and a beauty to women and men serving and a beauty to women and men serving together for the sake of God's Kingdom together for the sake of God's Kingdom together for the sake of God's Kingdom for the sake of his church um and then for the sake of his church um and then for the sake of his church um and then two as I shared a little bit as you two as I shared a little bit as you two as I shared a little bit as you shared I should say a a little bit in my shared I should say a a little bit in my shared I should say a a little bit in my bio you know having experienced I think bio you know having experienced I think bio you know having experienced I think some of the negative um results of some of the negative um results of some of the negative um results of someone who didn't really value women someone who didn't really value women someone who didn't really value women having a pastor who um ex really I would having a pastor who um ex really I would having a pastor who um ex really I would say engaged in spiritual abuse and say engaged in spiritual abuse and say engaged in spiritual abuse and misused a lot of the women in his life misused a lot of the women in his life misused a lot of the women in his life you know it's really important for me to you know it's really important for me to you know it's really important for me to see well what does the scripture say I see well what does the scripture say I see well what does the scripture say I think at that moment I was very young in

think at that moment I was very young in think at that moment I was very young in my faith and I viewed I think even to my faith and I viewed I think even to my faith and I viewed I think even to some degree men as great some degree men as great some degree men as great maybe able to understand the word more maybe able to understand the word more maybe able to understand the word more clearly than I could and so there were clearly than I could and so there were clearly than I could and so there were times where the Holy Spirit In Me was times where the Holy Spirit In Me was times where the Holy Spirit In Me was causing like red flags are going off causing like red flags are going off causing like red flags are going off like hold up but I think I was like hold up but I think I was like hold up but I think I was dismissing that just assuming well he's dismissing that just assuming well he's dismissing that just assuming well he's more spiritual than I am um and so it more spiritual than I am um and so it more spiritual than I am um and so it just taught me it's so important for me just taught me it's so important for me just taught me it's so important for me to align myself with God's word and to to align myself with God's word and to to align myself with God's word and to trust God's word to stand firm on God's trust God's word to stand firm on God's trust God's word to stand firm on God's word and what he says about men and word and what he says about men and word and what he says about men and women that men are valuable so even if women that men are valuable so even if women that men are valuable so even if we have experienced spiritual abuse we have experienced spiritual abuse we have experienced spiritual abuse right or we've had hardships as it right or we've had hardships as it right or we've had hardships as it relates to interactions with men in our relates to interactions with men in our relates to interactions with men in our lives we eventually we have to give that lives we eventually we have to give that lives we eventually we have to give that over to the Lord so that we can we can over to the Lord so that we can we can over to the Lord so that we can we can bear with our brothers in Christ right bear with our brothers in Christ right bear with our brothers in Christ right so that we can hope the best and not be so that we can hope the best and not be so that we can hope the best and not be burdened down by that experience and burdened down by that experience and burdened down by that experience and then also that we're looking at women then also that we're looking at women then also that we're looking at women right and we're hoping the best that we right and we're hoping the best that we right and we're hoping the best that we we we know that God values women as well we we know that God values women as well we we know that God values women as well so that we can build relationships so so that we can build relationships so so that we can build relationships so with men and women to the glory of God with men and women to the glory of God with men and women to the glory of God go and I've been really burdened for it go and I've been really burdened for it go and I've been really burdened for it because I've had two particular because I've had two particular because I've had two particular experiences or uh personally and one is experiences or uh personally and one is experiences or uh personally and one is the sexualization of women so that a man the sexualization of women so that a man the sexualization of women so that a man could not interpret a woman particularly could not interpret a woman particularly could not interpret a woman particularly a peer um in the church as anything a peer um in the church as anything a peer um in the church as anything other than a sex object to be avoided other than a sex object to be avoided other than a sex object to be avoided but also suspicion of women and um I but also suspicion of women and um I but also suspicion of women and um I I've talked with several people about

I've talked with several people about I've talked with several people about this before and it was a little bit on this before and it was a little bit on this before and it was a little bit on the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast the rise and fall of Mars Hill podcast but how I a period of time where um some but how I a period of time where um some but how I a period of time where um some of the language after the fall in of the language after the fall in of the language after the fall in Genesis 3 was used to project onto me or Genesis 3 was used to project onto me or Genesis 3 was used to project onto me or at least convince me that my anytime I I at least convince me that my anytime I I at least convince me that my anytime I I had a concern that it was really coming had a concern that it was really coming had a concern that it was really coming from a sinful heart of nagging or from a sinful heart of nagging or from a sinful heart of nagging or manipulating and so I was just manipulating and so I was just manipulating and so I was just constantly stomping down and stamping constantly stomping down and stamping constantly stomping down and stamping down concerns and became distrustful of down concerns and became distrustful of down concerns and became distrustful of really what was the Holy Spirit working really what was the Holy Spirit working really what was the Holy Spirit working in my own heart because I I in my own heart because I I in my own heart because I I distrusted U my own voice so much um distrusted U my own voice so much um distrusted U my own voice so much um even though I loved God and I loved his even though I loved God and I loved his even though I loved God and I loved his word and so then in the aftermath I I word and so then in the aftermath I I word and so then in the aftermath I I looked back and realized um both in some looked back and realized um both in some looked back and realized um both in some personal situations in my own home and personal situations in my own home and personal situations in my own home and in the church that um you know the in the church that um you know the in the church that um you know the concerns I had were real and I wonder concerns I had were real and I wonder concerns I had were real and I wonder you know God is Sovereign over this and you know God is Sovereign over this and you know God is Sovereign over this and I believe in Providence but I would I I believe in Providence but I would I I believe in Providence but I would I would hope for the future that I would would hope for the future that I would would hope for the future that I would have the confidence to approach a loved have the confidence to approach a loved have the confidence to approach a loved one of my my pastor or a husband in a one of my my pastor or a husband in a one of my my pastor or a husband in a way that would be respect way that would be respect way that would be respect but also honest you know and that I but also honest you know and that I but also honest you know and that I don't have to always think that I'm don't have to always think that I'm don't have to always think that I'm going to nagging or manipulation but going to nagging or manipulation but going to nagging or manipulation but I've also had hard circumstances in good I've also had hard circumstances in good I've also had hard circumstances in good churches and I had um a situation after churches and I had um a situation after churches and I had um a situation after my divorce where um I I went to a new my divorce where um I I went to a new my divorce where um I I went to a new church it was a beautiful Church lovely church it was a beautiful Church lovely church it was a beautiful Church lovely pastor and I had like two Sundays back pastor and I had like two Sundays back pastor and I had like two Sundays back to back where I had like three different

to back where I had like three different to back where I had like three different men in the church who like wouldn't make men in the church who like wouldn't make men in the church who like wouldn't make eye contact moved their chair away from eye contact moved their chair away from eye contact moved their chair away from me and I'm like well do I need to read me and I'm like well do I need to read me and I'm like well do I need to read write a sign like I'm not interested in write a sign like I'm not interested in write a sign like I'm not interested in you actually I'm not looking for a you actually I'm not looking for a you actually I'm not looking for a spouse you know you're spouse you know you're spouse you know you're safe but you know I talked to the pastor safe but you know I talked to the pastor safe but you know I talked to the pastor afterwards and he explained to me that afterwards and he explained to me that afterwards and he explained to me that there had actually been a very serious there had actually been a very serious there had actually been a very serious situation A few years before I got there situation A few years before I got there situation A few years before I got there of two male leaders having an affair of two male leaders having an affair of two male leaders having an affair with a female leader in the church and with a female leader in the church and with a female leader in the church and it had hurt the men as much as hurt the it had hurt the men as much as hurt the it had hurt the men as much as hurt the women and so a lot of times men are women and so a lot of times men are women and so a lot of times men are coming to this conversation burnt as we coming to this conversation burnt as we coming to this conversation burnt as we are coming burnt and so it's just really are coming burnt and so it's just really are coming burnt and so it's just really important for us to offer Grace to one important for us to offer Grace to one important for us to offer Grace to one another and be ever ready to believe the another and be ever ready to believe the another and be ever ready to believe the best of one another and that is not best of one another and that is not best of one another and that is not always the tone we take either men with always the tone we take either men with always the tone we take either men with women or women with women or women with women or women with men I really appreciate what both of you men I really appreciate what both of you men I really appreciate what both of you have said both of you are coming from have said both of you are coming from have said both of you are coming from experiences which have been really experiences which have been really experiences which have been really troubling I mean it saddens me to hear troubling I mean it saddens me to hear troubling I mean it saddens me to hear both of you talk but it also encourages both of you talk but it also encourages both of you talk but it also encourages me because both of you are saying I'm me because both of you are saying I'm me because both of you are saying I'm not going to be defined by that you know not going to be defined by that you know not going to be defined by that you know the Lord Jesus is going to Define me and the Lord Jesus is going to Define me and the Lord Jesus is going to Define me and the Bible's going to be the lamp to my the Bible's going to be the lamp to my the Bible's going to be the lamp to my feet the light to my path so I just feet the light to my path so I just feet the light to my path so I just commend both of you and I know this room commend both of you and I know this room commend both of you and I know this room is filled with people who probably have is filled with people who probably have is filled with people who probably have some similar experiences and so it's not some similar experiences and so it's not some similar experiences and so it's not always easy to get recalibrated when always easy to get recalibrated when always easy to get recalibrated when you've been disoriented like that those you've been disoriented like that those you've been disoriented like that those are very disorienting experiences the

are very disorienting experiences the are very disorienting experiences the reason I think Megan that a reason I think Megan that a reason I think Megan that a complimentarity is so important is a complimentarity is so important is a complimentarity is so important is a couple let me say a couple things one couple let me say a couple things one couple let me say a couple things one is to be in Christ is to flourish it's is to be in Christ is to flourish it's is to be in Christ is to flourish it's to be fully human is to be your best to be fully human is to be your best to be fully human is to be your best self if you will not immediately and not self if you will not immediately and not self if you will not immediately and not fully in this lifetime but you're on fully in this lifetime but you're on fully in this lifetime but you're on that that that path and God made us male and female and path and God made us male and female and path and God made us male and female and he made us to relate in distinct ways so he made us to relate in distinct ways so he made us to relate in distinct ways so that we're equal in in our Essence but that we're equal in in our Essence but that we're equal in in our Essence but we do have different assignments in the we do have different assignments in the we do have different assignments in the church and in church and in church and in marriage and by receiving those and marriage and by receiving those and marriage and by receiving those and learning to receive it without learning to receive it without learning to receive it without reluctance or bitterness in any way but reluctance or bitterness in any way but reluctance or bitterness in any way but joyfully becoming what he defined us to joyfully becoming what he defined us to joyfully becoming what he defined us to be you find that you are your best self be you find that you are your best self be you find that you are your best self so I would just say in terms of so I would just say in terms of so I would just say in terms of Christian Christian Christian discipleship this issue is really discipleship this issue is really discipleship this issue is really important look at all the gender important look at all the gender important look at all the gender confusion that we have I mean just to confusion that we have I mean just to confusion that we have I mean just to say they're two genders is is say they're two genders is is say they're two genders is is controversial now but then to Define controversial now but then to Define controversial now but then to Define them like like we do biblically is also them like like we do biblically is also them like like we do biblically is also very important and I I do think more and very important and I I do think more and very important and I I do think more and more people are turning to more people are turning to more people are turning to complimentaries to get us out of this complimentaries to get us out of this complimentaries to get us out of this mess uh because we know they're two mess uh because we know they're two mess uh because we know they're two genders and we know why they were genders and we know why they were genders and we know why they were created so I I'm feeling a little bit created so I I'm feeling a little bit created so I I'm feeling a little bit triumphant about about our view because triumphant about about our view because triumphant about about our view because it it contribute so much to human it it contribute so much to human it it contribute so much to human flourishing second thing I would say as flourishing second thing I would say as flourishing second thing I would say as a pastor a pastor a pastor most churches that I know that have

most churches that I know that have most churches that I know that have women women women Elders do so because they think of their Elders do so because they think of their Elders do so because they think of their Elder board as a board of Elder board as a board of Elder board as a board of directors and if I were to have a board directors and if I were to have a board directors and if I were to have a board of directors for the church believe me I of directors for the church believe me I of directors for the church believe me I would have women on it so if indeed a would have women on it so if indeed a would have women on it so if indeed a board of Elders is a board of directors board of Elders is a board of directors board of Elders is a board of directors I believe you should have women on it I I believe you should have women on it I I believe you should have women on it I mean for obvious mean for obvious mean for obvious reasons but the fact of the matter is I reasons but the fact of the matter is I reasons but the fact of the matter is I think biblically think biblically think biblically that your Gathering of Elders those are that your Gathering of Elders those are that your Gathering of Elders those are your pastors those are your your pastors those are your your pastors those are your Shepherds and if the home is run Shepherds and if the home is run Shepherds and if the home is run properly where you have two people properly where you have two people properly where you have two people working together and the man is taking working together and the man is taking working together and the man is taking the burden to be the man to lay down his the burden to be the man to lay down his the burden to be the man to lay down his life for his family and to be courteous life for his family and to be courteous life for his family and to be courteous and kind to his wife and to nurture his and kind to his wife and to nurture his and kind to his wife and to nurture his children and to be the one who protects children and to be the one who protects children and to be the one who protects them above everybody them above everybody them above everybody else then those are the people that else then those are the people that else then those are the people that these men male Elders need to be these men male Elders need to be these men male Elders need to be pastoring above all there does need to pastoring above all there does need to pastoring above all there does need to be obviously female pastoring that's be obviously female pastoring that's be obviously female pastoring that's going on in the church that's not going on in the church that's not going on in the church that's not ordained but I just find in terms of ordained but I just find in terms of ordained but I just find in terms of church health I want to hold these men church health I want to hold these men church health I want to hold these men responsible you know my experience in responsible you know my experience in responsible you know my experience in marriage counseling has marriage counseling has marriage counseling has been really about 85% of the time if I been really about 85% of the time if I been really about 85% of the time if I could get the man's head straight I could get the man's head straight I could get the man's head straight I believe we're going to be believe we're going to be believe we're going to be fine and I know I'm I'm biased because I fine and I know I'm I'm biased because I fine and I know I'm I'm biased because I am a man but I do normally am a man but I do normally am a man but I do normally see more fault on the male side well I

see more fault on the male side well I see more fault on the male side well I want male Elders who are interacting want male Elders who are interacting want male Elders who are interacting with these men so the churches that I with these men so the churches that I with these men so the churches that I find that do think that women should be find that do think that women should be find that do think that women should be Elders normally are not functioning in Elders normally are not functioning in Elders normally are not functioning in the role I'm describing for a shepherd the role I'm describing for a shepherd the role I'm describing for a shepherd and if they do I think they get the and if they do I think they get the and if they do I think they get the logic that you need men holding men logic that you need men holding men logic that you need men holding men accountable in the homes now that that's accountable in the homes now that that's accountable in the homes now that that's of course for married people uh but true of course for married people uh but true of course for married people uh but true for single people too we need men to for single people too we need men to for single people too we need men to leave leave leave so I'm convinced theologically and so I'm convinced theologically and so I'm convinced theologically and biblically first of all I mean if God biblically first of all I mean if God biblically first of all I mean if God said it that settles it uh but I do see said it that settles it uh but I do see said it that settles it uh but I do see the Practical outworkings of it Megan the Practical outworkings of it Megan the Practical outworkings of it Megan and that's the reason that you know the and that's the reason that you know the and that's the reason that you know the the issue has some uh passion for me the issue has some uh passion for me the issue has some uh passion for me yeah that's great so let's talk now a yeah that's great so let's talk now a yeah that's great so let's talk now a little bit about how complimentarity can little bit about how complimentarity can little bit about how complimentarity can go wrong and then really we want to go wrong and then really we want to go wrong and then really we want to focus on how how it can go right and focus on how how it can go right and focus on how how it can go right and having a positive Vision but I think having a positive Vision but I think having a positive Vision but I think there is this sort of elephant in the there is this sort of elephant in the there is this sort of elephant in the room of it goes wrong sometimes and so room of it goes wrong sometimes and so room of it goes wrong sometimes and so what are some ways in which you guys what are some ways in which you guys what are some ways in which you guys have experienced it going wrong Wendy have experienced it going wrong Wendy have experienced it going wrong Wendy maybe you could start us off well going maybe you could start us off well going maybe you could start us off well going back to that idea of the suspicion of back to that idea of the suspicion of back to that idea of the suspicion of women and the sexualization of women so women and the sexualization of women so women and the sexualization of women so that if we um we need maybe even that if we um we need maybe even that if we um we need maybe even speaking to what what we could do to speaking to what what we could do to speaking to what what we could do to counteract it but are we counteract it but are we counteract it but are we discipling um male and female like you discipling um male and female like you discipling um male and female like you know we in complimentary in circles we know we in complimentary in circles we know we in complimentary in circles we spend a boatload of time on husband wife

spend a boatload of time on husband wife spend a boatload of time on husband wife relationships right and so now I'm relationships right and so now I'm relationships right and so now I'm divorced so I don't have a husband at my divorced so I don't have a husband at my divorced so I don't have a husband at my home but I have relationships with my home but I have relationships with my home but I have relationships with my two teenage sons and my male pastors you two teenage sons and my male pastors you two teenage sons and my male pastors you know and so I am having to dis you know know and so I am having to dis you know know and so I am having to dis you know focus on what does being a helper in in focus on what does being a helper in in focus on what does being a helper in in these contexts with between the these contexts with between the these contexts with between the biological Sexes and how do I um come biological Sexes and how do I um come biological Sexes and how do I um come alongside and help in ways that they alongside and help in ways that they alongside and help in ways that they Truly find helpful in my church and it's Truly find helpful in my church and it's Truly find helpful in my church and it's um it's been important for me to um it's been important for me to um it's been important for me to discipline my own mind um you know I've discipline my own mind um you know I've discipline my own mind um you know I've had handsome pastors but I say well had handsome pastors but I say well had handsome pastors but I say well that's creepy because he's my brother that's creepy because he's my brother that's creepy because he's my brother you know so we're not even going there you know so we're not even going there you know so we're not even going there because this is I'm I you know because this is I'm I you know because this is I'm I you know discipline myself and we're just should discipline myself and we're just should discipline myself and we're just should be discipling in the church that these be discipling in the church that these be discipling in the church that these are our brothers these are our fathers are our brothers these are our fathers are our brothers these are our fathers these are our sons and you're only going these are our sons and you're only going these are our sons and you're only going to have one spouse right and it's creepy to have one spouse right and it's creepy to have one spouse right and it's creepy to think of anybody else in ter terms of to think of anybody else in ter terms of to think of anybody else in ter terms of that in the in the body of Christ and so that in the in the body of Christ and so that in the in the body of Christ and so I think that's A discipleship um Norm I think that's A discipleship um Norm I think that's A discipleship um Norm that we need to be stressing in the that we need to be stressing in the that we need to be stressing in the church yeah I mean we talk about um even church yeah I mean we talk about um even church yeah I mean we talk about um even just the range of of beliefs when it just the range of of beliefs when it just the range of of beliefs when it comes to complementarianism maybe you've comes to complementarianism maybe you've comes to complementarianism maybe you've heard terms like related to the church and the home I related to the church and the home I don't believe that women should be don't believe that women should be don't believe that women should be pastors um or Elders I believe that that

pastors um or Elders I believe that that pastors um or Elders I believe that that is ordained for men um that is ordained for men um that is ordained for men um that authoritative teaching that's spoken of authoritative teaching that's spoken of authoritative teaching that's spoken of in 1 Timothy 2 I believe is reserved for in 1 Timothy 2 I believe is reserved for in 1 Timothy 2 I believe is reserved for men but I know that there are others who men but I know that there are others who men but I know that there are others who may have a difference of opinion um but may have a difference of opinion um but may have a difference of opinion um but I think it's important for us to even I I think it's important for us to even I I think it's important for us to even I think more so than upholding or trying think more so than upholding or trying think more so than upholding or trying to defend the term is to defend the to defend the term is to defend the to defend the term is to defend the theology behind the term right where theology behind the term right where theology behind the term right where trying to line up with the scripture trying to line up with the scripture trying to line up with the scripture right we want the scripture to be our right we want the scripture to be our right we want the scripture to be our guide and we want to conform guide and we want to conform guide and we want to conform complementarianism to the text uh versus complementarianism to the text uh versus complementarianism to the text uh versus the other way around and um I do think the other way around and um I do think the other way around and um I do think there are a lot of Mis misconception so there are a lot of Mis misconception so there are a lot of Mis misconception so even as you mentioned you know it's like even as you mentioned you know it's like even as you mentioned you know it's like what do you do with single people so what do you do with single people so what do you do with single people so even as we talk about complimentarily in the marketplace I complimentarily in the marketplace I think for single people and I know think for single people and I know think for single people and I know different people have different views um different people have different views um different people have different views um so for example if you are a so for example if you are a so for example if you are a woman and you are a woman and you are a woman and you are a CEO you are running your company and CEO you are running your company and CEO you are running your company and you're doing a great job at it um I you're doing a great job at it um I you're doing a great job at it um I think sometimes it's like well wait but think sometimes it's like well wait but think sometimes it's like well wait but I'm a helper right so H how how do I I'm a helper right so H how how do I I'm a helper right so H how how do I reconcile this role that I have this reconcile this role that I have this reconcile this role that I have this responsibility I have to this function responsibility I have to this function responsibility I have to this function that I've been given by God should I be that I've been given by God should I be that I've been given by God should I be looking for my employees who are men you looking for my employees who are men you looking for my employees who are men you know to somehow I don't know like not know to somehow I don't know like not know to somehow I don't know like not sub to them but just like to place sub to them but just like to place sub to them but just like to place myself under their leadership to some myself under their leadership to some myself under their leadership to some degree I don't think so I know there's degree I don't think so I know there's degree I don't think so I know there's some who might say so but I I Look to

some who might say so but I I Look to some who might say so but I I Look to proverbs 31 where we see the the woman proverbs 31 where we see the the woman proverbs 31 where we see the the woman who worked in the marketplace right she who worked in the marketplace right she who worked in the marketplace right she was buying land and making exchanges I was buying land and making exchanges I was buying land and making exchanges I look at Lydia you know and AXS uh who look at Lydia you know and AXS uh who look at Lydia you know and AXS uh who was also doing that work so I but I do was also doing that work so I but I do was also doing that work so I but I do think there's a lot of confusion about think there's a lot of confusion about think there's a lot of confusion about single people and how this practically single people and how this practically single people and how this practically Works itself out um yeah and then also I Works itself out um yeah and then also I Works itself out um yeah and then also I think even the day-to-day so when it think even the day-to-day so when it think even the day-to-day so when it comes to single people male and female comes to single people male and female comes to single people male and female in their day-to-day interactions in their day-to-day interactions in their day-to-day interactions together you know so it might not be together you know so it might not be together you know so it might not be that you're looking at that man in a that you're looking at that man in a that you're looking at that man in a sexual way but functionally like how are sexual way but functionally like how are sexual way but functionally like how are we to relate so if I'm hanging if I'm we to relate so if I'm hanging if I'm we to relate so if I'm hanging if I'm I'm in my 20s my 30s my 40s my 50s 60s I'm in my 20s my 30s my 40s my 50s 60s I'm in my 20s my 30s my 40s my 50s 60s you know I'm single I'm hanging with you know I'm single I'm hanging with you know I'm single I'm hanging with other peers who are of the opposite sex other peers who are of the opposite sex other peers who are of the opposite sex and we're hanging out should I be and we're hanging out should I be and we're hanging out should I be washing their dishes washing their dishes washing their dishes should do you know I mean like are there should do you know I mean like are there should do you know I mean like are there hey you know should I be serving but I hey you know should I be serving but I hey you know should I be serving but I think the sometimes the problem with think the sometimes the problem with think the sometimes the problem with that yes serve serve your brothers right that yes serve serve your brothers right that yes serve serve your brothers right freely freely freely voluntarily but I think the challenge it voluntarily but I think the challenge it voluntarily but I think the challenge it gets sticky when there's interest and it gets sticky when there's interest and it gets sticky when there's interest and it gets sticky when it's like uh are you gets sticky when it's like uh are you gets sticky when it's like uh are you testing me you know do you like me and testing me you know do you like me and testing me you know do you like me and then it gets really weird and so that's then it gets really weird and so that's then it gets really weird and so that's why I think sometimes we wrestle with why I think sometimes we wrestle with why I think sometimes we wrestle with like can men and women be friends you like can men and women be friends you like can men and women be friends you know because it's like it gets it I know because it's like it gets it I know because it's like it gets it I think it gets very sticky and you don't think it gets very sticky and you don't think it gets very sticky and you don't want to do things motivated out of any want to do things motivated out of any want to do things motivated out of any romance you don't want to do it romance you don't want to do it romance you don't want to do it motivated out of could this person

motivated out of could this person motivated out of could this person potentially be interested in me right potentially be interested in me right potentially be interested in me right you want to say this is my brother but you want to say this is my brother but you want to say this is my brother but there has to be some level of boundary there has to be some level of boundary there has to be some level of boundary to say I can't functionally be married to say I can't functionally be married to say I can't functionally be married to you do you know what I mean does that to you do you know what I mean does that to you do you know what I mean does that make sense yeah and one of the things make sense yeah and one of the things make sense yeah and one of the things that I I work on practicing because I that I I work on practicing because I that I I work on practicing because I have really great brothers in Christ in have really great brothers in Christ in have really great brothers in Christ in my church but I work on practicing it's my church but I work on practicing it's my church but I work on practicing it's it's the couple you know I'm I I love it's the couple you know I'm I I love it's the couple you know I'm I I love their sisters and I discipline myself their sisters and I discipline myself their sisters and I discipline myself you know and sometimes it'll be you know and sometimes it'll be you know and sometimes it'll be appropriate um to have an individual appropriate um to have an individual appropriate um to have an individual conversation but I make sure I don't conversation but I make sure I don't conversation but I make sure I don't have a long individual conversation that have a long individual conversation that have a long individual conversation that that I'm this is these are my that I'm this is these are my that I'm this is these are my friends not just my one friend but this friends not just my one friend but this friends not just my one friend but this couple um speaks into my life and I couple um speaks into my life and I couple um speaks into my life and I really I've needed I've needed men in my really I've needed I've needed men in my really I've needed I've needed men in my church speaking to my life I've needed church speaking to my life I've needed church speaking to my life I've needed men in my church speaking into my men in my church speaking into my men in my church speaking into my children's life and and so I value them children's life and and so I value them children's life and and so I value them as my brothers but then I also as my brothers but then I also as my brothers but then I also discipline my brother's married to this discipline my brother's married to this discipline my brother's married to this woman you know so how am I going to woman you know so how am I going to woman you know so how am I going to think about this and and make sure I think about this and and make sure I think about this and and make sure I honor that in a way that doesn't cause honor that in a way that doesn't cause honor that in a way that doesn't cause them a stumbling block doesn't cause her them a stumbling block doesn't cause her them a stumbling block doesn't cause her I mean there may be nothing in between I mean there may be nothing in between I mean there may be nothing in between the husband and myself in any way shape the husband and myself in any way shape the husband and myself in any way shape or form but have I done something to or form but have I done something to or form but have I done something to make her think um or her to be concerned make her think um or her to be concerned make her think um or her to be concerned and and love for Christ says no sister I and and love for Christ says no sister I and and love for Christ says no sister I am not going to do that to you I am not am not going to do that to you I am not am not going to do that to you I am not going to put you in that going to put you in that going to put you in that situation yeah I I would agree with situation yeah I I would agree with situation yeah I I would agree with what's been said uh Blair was the dishes

what's been said uh Blair was the dishes what's been said uh Blair was the dishes no not wash the dishes no that was that no not wash the dishes no that was that no not wash the dishes no that was that was a joke I know I know uh but when was a joke I know I know uh but when was a joke I know I know uh but when Blair was talking about uh female CEOs Blair was talking about uh female CEOs Blair was talking about uh female CEOs absolutely and right now I think uh in absolutely and right now I think uh in absolutely and right now I think uh in our political situation I wish we had a our political situation I wish we had a our political situation I wish we had a female president it would be a Kinder female president it would be a Kinder female president it would be a Kinder sweeter place than what we're dealing sweeter place than what we're dealing sweeter place than what we're dealing with now all this craziness so yes in with now all this craziness so yes in with now all this craziness so yes in the workplace and in other Realms the workplace and in other Realms the workplace and in other Realms outside of church and marriage with the outside of church and marriage with the outside of church and marriage with the two that the apostles speak to uh you two that the apostles speak to uh you two that the apostles speak to uh you know we we should be promoting uh the know we we should be promoting uh the know we we should be promoting uh the leadership and the usefulness of human leadership and the usefulness of human leadership and the usefulness of human beings regardless of their gender in beings regardless of their gender in beings regardless of their gender in every realm uh in terms of every realm uh in terms of every realm uh in terms of abuses Megan I just see a lot of it um abuses Megan I just see a lot of it um abuses Megan I just see a lot of it um it's and some of it is subliminal it's and some of it is subliminal it's and some of it is subliminal subconscious but men will and I know you subconscious but men will and I know you subconscious but men will and I know you you know the women here will have you know the women here will have you know the women here will have multiple stories but you can see men multiple stories but you can see men multiple stories but you can see men just dismissing the women's just dismissing the women's just dismissing the women's opinions I mean I'm sorry but I it's opinions I mean I'm sorry but I it's opinions I mean I'm sorry but I it's sort of gender sort of gender sort of gender Supremacy so especially in a Supremacy so especially in a Supremacy so especially in a complimentary environment where they complimentary environment where they complimentary environment where they have the official roles somehow Elders have the official roles somehow Elders have the official roles somehow Elders feel like they don't need to listen and feel like they don't need to listen and feel like they don't need to listen and then Elders will get in a room this is then Elders will get in a room this is then Elders will get in a room this is all men and they'll make some decision all men and they'll make some decision all men and they'll make some decision that affects the whole church and that affects the whole church and that affects the whole church and nobody's talked to the women in the nobody's talked to the women in the nobody's talked to the women in the church it's stunning how not only are church it's stunning how not only are church it's stunning how not only are you dismissed in conversation but you dismissed in conversation but you dismissed in conversation but sometimes you're dismissed in decision sometimes you're dismissed in decision sometimes you're dismissed in decision making uh and the church really hurts

making uh and the church really hurts making uh and the church really hurts over this and I think then that's that's over this and I think then that's that's over this and I think then that's that's kind of the primary sin then you get kind of the primary sin then you get kind of the primary sin then you get secondary sins and the secondary sin is secondary sins and the secondary sin is secondary sins and the secondary sin is what are you going to do about as a what are you going to do about as a what are you going to do about as a woman I'm going to talk to my sisters woman I'm going to talk to my sisters woman I'm going to talk to my sisters about this we're going to talk about about this we're going to talk about about this we're going to talk about them and we're you know and so you start them and we're you know and so you start them and we're you know and so you start gossiping or you create a female gossiping or you create a female gossiping or you create a female authoritative structure so that authoritative structure so that authoritative structure so that everybody can have a position and you're everybody can have a position and you're everybody can have a position and you're you're siloed from the rest of the you're siloed from the rest of the you're siloed from the rest of the church I see that happening often church I see that happening often church I see that happening often especially in southern churches where especially in southern churches where especially in southern churches where you have more traditionalism perhaps you have more traditionalism perhaps you have more traditionalism perhaps than in other places so uh I think as a than in other places so uh I think as a than in other places so uh I think as a a woman it takes a lot of Grace often a woman it takes a lot of Grace often a woman it takes a lot of Grace often times to confront these abuses that are times to confront these abuses that are times to confront these abuses that are not you know violent abuses but they not you know violent abuses but they not you know violent abuses but they feel that way psychologically it takes feel that way psychologically it takes feel that way psychologically it takes Grace and then it also takes courage Grace and then it also takes courage Grace and then it also takes courage because you have to sit down with your because you have to sit down with your because you have to sit down with your brother and say hey could I rehearse brother and say hey could I rehearse brother and say hey could I rehearse with you what just happened in that with you what just happened in that with you what just happened in that meeting three days ago and you know I meeting three days ago and you know I meeting three days ago and you know I haven't talked to anybody else but I'm haven't talked to anybody else but I'm haven't talked to anybody else but I'm just going to give you my opinion on just going to give you my opinion on just going to give you my opinion on this and I'd really like to see you make this and I'd really like to see you make this and I'd really like to see you make a turn the road and our our women have a turn the road and our our women have a turn the road and our our women have to do this I'll give you one example and to do this I'll give you one example and to do this I'll give you one example and this leads toward what we can do to fix this leads toward what we can do to fix this leads toward what we can do to fix it um Susan Nash is a good friend of it um Susan Nash is a good friend of it um Susan Nash is a good friend of mine we were Executives on the same mine we were Executives on the same mine we were Executives on the same executive team in the church I pastored executive team in the church I pastored executive team in the church I pastored in Memphis and uh in Memphis and uh in Memphis and uh you know Susan so uh one day Susan came you know Susan so uh one day Susan came you know Susan so uh one day Susan came into my office and she handed me a into my office and she handed me a into my office and she handed me a little letter to the editor in the little letter to the editor in the little letter to the editor in the commercial appeal the Memphis paper and commercial appeal the Memphis paper and commercial appeal the Memphis paper and she said did you see this and I said she said did you see this and I said she said did you see this and I said well let me look and I read it and it

well let me look and I read it and it well let me look and I read it and it was a guy who was complaining about all was a guy who was complaining about all was a guy who was complaining about all the off Street Parking On Pop Avenue the off Street Parking On Pop Avenue the off Street Parking On Pop Avenue which is a main trunk in Memphis and who which is a main trunk in Memphis and who which is a main trunk in Memphis and who are these Presbyterians who think they are these Presbyterians who think they are these Presbyterians who think they can just take their cars and park them can just take their cars and park them can just take their cars and park them out there on Sunday and clog up all the out there on Sunday and clog up all the out there on Sunday and clog up all the traffic and I said well you know those traffic and I said well you know those traffic and I said well you know those things happen I pushed it back she said things happen I pushed it back she said things happen I pushed it back she said no did you read who wrote the letter I no did you read who wrote the letter I no did you read who wrote the letter I looked at it and I looked at it and I looked at it and I said that name looks familiar and she said that name looks familiar and she said that name looks familiar and she said he was our second violinist in the said he was our second violinist in the said he was our second violinist in the last Orchestra you had in the last Orchestra you had in the last Orchestra you had in the sanctuary and I passed it back and I sanctuary and I passed it back and I sanctuary and I passed it back and I said well the operative word that you said well the operative word that you said well the operative word that you just said was was she pushed it back gently and she was she pushed it back gently and she said pastor you might reconsider that said pastor you might reconsider that said pastor you might reconsider that answer answer answer wow I mean obviously you know 15 years wow I mean obviously you know 15 years wow I mean obviously you know 15 years later I remember this uh just gently later I remember this uh just gently later I remember this uh just gently respectfully being helped by someone who respectfully being helped by someone who respectfully being helped by someone who is more gracious than I am uh and I is more gracious than I am uh and I is more gracious than I am uh and I think women often bring that but it's a think women often bring that but it's a think women often bring that but it's a challenge because you do get dismissed challenge because you do get dismissed challenge because you do get dismissed and overpowered at times through and overpowered at times through and overpowered at times through complementarian structures that are not complementarian structures that are not complementarian structures that are not operating operating operating correctly and so it I I think it correctly and so it I I think it correctly and so it I I think it requires a lot of Grace to do this right requires a lot of Grace to do this right requires a lot of Grace to do this right yeah no that's a great segue into kind yeah no that's a great segue into kind yeah no that's a great segue into kind of the a positive Vision forward then of the a positive Vision forward then of the a positive Vision forward then you know how okay we have these you know how okay we have these you know how okay we have these challenges that we're dealing with but challenges that we're dealing with but challenges that we're dealing with but how do we move toward a healthy practice how do we move toward a healthy practice how do we move toward a healthy practice of complementarianism particularly in

of complementarianism particularly in of complementarianism particularly in the church and you know Wendy I know you the church and you know Wendy I know you the church and you know Wendy I know you and your work you really believe it and your work you really believe it and your work you really believe it starts with discipleship I think and so starts with discipleship I think and so starts with discipleship I think and so can you talk to us a little bit about can you talk to us a little bit about can you talk to us a little bit about discipling people into this View and it discipling people into this View and it discipling people into this View and it also is discipling not it doesn't have also is discipling not it doesn't have also is discipling not it doesn't have to be the formal discipleship too right to be the formal discipleship too right to be the formal discipleship too right so it can be this one-on-one so it can be this one-on-one so it can be this one-on-one conversation and you know and when I'm conversation and you know and when I'm conversation and you know and when I'm talking with a woman I think a lot about talking with a woman I think a lot about talking with a woman I think a lot about um just asking that question you know um just asking that question you know um just asking that question you know you're struggling here um and but God you're struggling here um and but God you're struggling here um and but God created you to be a strong Helper and created you to be a strong Helper and created you to be a strong Helper and who are who are you struggling with and who are who are you struggling with and who are who are you struggling with and you know can you go to that person is it you know can you go to that person is it you know can you go to that person is it your husband your pastor and say well your husband your pastor and say well your husband your pastor and say well what I feel like God created me not to what I feel like God created me not to what I feel like God created me not to be just you know I'm not just folding be just you know I'm not just folding be just you know I'm not just folding socks and putting away napkins or socks and putting away napkins or socks and putting away napkins or washing dishes whatever um but not to washing dishes whatever um but not to washing dishes whatever um but not to say not do that but also like what in say not do that but also like what in say not do that but also like what in what would be strongly helpful to you what would be strongly helpful to you what would be strongly helpful to you like what is a lack in the church right like what is a lack in the church right like what is a lack in the church right now that I can step into in a way that now that I can step into in a way that now that I can step into in a way that would help you as Pastor what can I do would help you as Pastor what can I do would help you as Pastor what can I do in my home that would help you as in my home that would help you as in my home that would help you as husband um and sometimes the you might husband um and sometimes the you might husband um and sometimes the you might think the answer would be one thing and think the answer would be one thing and think the answer would be one thing and it might be a very very different um it might be a very very different um it might be a very very different um thing and I found that um my pastor is thing and I found that um my pastor is thing and I found that um my pastor is not suspicious of me my current Pastor not suspicious of me my current Pastor not suspicious of me my current Pastor we're in a church plant and there is a we're in a church plant and there is a we're in a church plant and there is a lot of need and um so it's been really lot of need and um so it's been really lot of need and um so it's been really beautiful to have someone you know I'd beautiful to have someone you know I'd beautiful to have someone you know I'd just like to give a vision like this is just like to give a vision like this is just like to give a vision like this is really possible to have these brothers

really possible to have these brothers really possible to have these brothers who are not suspicious of you who um who are not suspicious of you who um who are not suspicious of you who um value what you can bring a pastor who value what you can bring a pastor who value what you can bring a pastor who values what I can bring and so it never values what I can bring and so it never values what I can bring and so it never even it never even occurs to me um that even it never even occurs to me um that even it never even occurs to me um that I'm not in a I'm not in a I'm not in a technical paid leadership position technical paid leadership position technical paid leadership position because I feel like my gifts are well because I feel like my gifts are well because I feel like my gifts are well used like almost to where I have to say used like almost to where I have to say used like almost to where I have to say I I'm sorry I don't have time for that I I'm sorry I don't have time for that I I'm sorry I don't have time for that you know um and so it can really happen you know um and so it can really happen you know um and so it can really happen in a really beautiful way and and and in a really beautiful way and and and in a really beautiful way and and and and being willing to submit to God's and being willing to submit to God's and being willing to submit to God's long game like we often want the short long game like we often want the short long game like we often want the short game we want the to say it quickly and game we want the to say it quickly and game we want the to say it quickly and have a quick response but sometimes have a quick response but sometimes have a quick response but sometimes you're going to have to sew a seed and you're going to have to sew a seed and you're going to have to sew a seed and wait and wait for someone else to water wait and wait for someone else to water wait and wait for someone else to water it and wait for the sun to come out it and wait for the sun to come out it and wait for the sun to come out later and and wait for fruit but God has later and and wait for fruit but God has later and and wait for fruit but God has a long game and that's definitely been a long game and that's definitely been a long game and that's definitely been true in my true in my true in my life that's good I'm like if we had this life that's good I'm like if we had this life that's good I'm like if we had this all figured out we wouldn't need the all figured out we wouldn't need the all figured out we wouldn't need the Lord the spirit of God right um one of Lord the spirit of God right um one of Lord the spirit of God right um one of the other things that I was thinking the other things that I was thinking the other things that I was thinking about is just the importance of about is just the importance of about is just the importance of accountability I think it's B it is accountability I think it's B it is accountability I think it's B it is vital that your pastors have vital that your pastors have vital that your pastors have accountability um you know I know there accountability um you know I know there accountability um you know I know there are many different models when it comes are many different models when it comes are many different models when it comes to the church um I know me personally I to the church um I know me personally I to the church um I know me personally I don't lean anymore towards the Moses don't lean anymore towards the Moses don't lean anymore towards the Moses model where there's one man you know who model where there's one man you know who model where there's one man you know who is kind of the one that everything is is kind of the one that everything is is kind of the one that everything is centered around um I find much comfort I

centered around um I find much comfort I centered around um I find much comfort I find much security and a plurality of find much security and a plurality of find much security and a plurality of Elders I I see I think it's biblical I Elders I I see I think it's biblical I Elders I I see I think it's biblical I think it's biblical um so not only just think it's biblical um so not only just think it's biblical um so not only just because of my experience I think it's in because of my experience I think it's in because of my experience I think it's in the Bible um and and I think it's the Bible um and and I think it's the Bible um and and I think it's important because the elders they need important because the elders they need important because the elders they need help right they need accountability they help right they need accountability they help right they need accountability they don't have it all figured out um and don't have it all figured out um and don't have it all figured out um and then also it's important even as you then also it's important even as you then also it's important even as you mentioned Pastor Sandy like the mentioned Pastor Sandy like the mentioned Pastor Sandy like the importance of having pastors that listen importance of having pastors that listen importance of having pastors that listen to women so one of the things that my to women so one of the things that my to women so one of the things that my current Pastor pastors they do is often current Pastor pastors they do is often current Pastor pastors they do is often they'll have sermon review so after they they'll have sermon review so after they they'll have sermon review so after they preach a sermon that night they'll meet preach a sermon that night they'll meet preach a sermon that night they'll meet with all the other pastors that's on with all the other pastors that's on with all the other pastors that's on staff including some women women even staff including some women women even staff including some women women even who are not on staff but just Godly who are not on staff but just Godly who are not on staff but just Godly women in the congregation and they'll women in the congregation and they'll women in the congregation and they'll say what did you think you know um and say what did you think you know um and say what did you think you know um and that just helps to Think Through that just helps to Think Through that just helps to Think Through application you know how does this apply application you know how does this apply application you know how does this apply to me as a single mom how does this to me as a single mom how does this to me as a single mom how does this apply to me as a homeschooling mom you apply to me as a homeschooling mom you apply to me as a homeschooling mom you know or how does this apply to me as a know or how does this apply to me as a know or how does this apply to me as a businesswoman how does this apply to me businesswoman how does this apply to me businesswoman how does this apply to me as a widow you know um that they are as a widow you know um that they are as a widow you know um that they are hearing from women I think that's really hearing from women I think that's really hearing from women I think that's really important um and then um and then one of important um and then um and then one of important um and then um and then one of the things I was thinking about is the the things I was thinking about is the the things I was thinking about is the importance of using your gifts in the importance of using your gifts in the importance of using your gifts in the church as a woman I think sometimes we church as a woman I think sometimes we church as a woman I think sometimes we emphasize certain text that are gender emphasize certain text that are gender emphasize certain text that are gender specific and then we deemphasize other specific and then we deemphasize other specific and then we deemphasize other texts or we don't really pay attention texts or we don't really pay attention texts or we don't really pay attention to others so an example I thought about to others so an example I thought about to others so an example I thought about was like 1 Corinthians 14 right which was like 1 Corinthians 14 right which was like 1 Corinthians 14 right which would say a woman should be silent right would say a woman should be silent right would say a woman should be silent right and it speaks of other people being and it speaks of other people being and it speaks of other people being silent too we don't really talk about silent too we don't really talk about silent too we don't really talk about that but um you know we just kind of

that but um you know we just kind of that but um you know we just kind of focus in on that but then we miss like 1 focus in on that but then we miss like 1 focus in on that but then we miss like 1 Corinthians 11 which came before and you Corinthians 11 which came before and you Corinthians 11 which came before and you have women who are praying and have women who are praying and have women who are praying and prophesying in the church so what do we prophesying in the church so what do we prophesying in the church so what do we do with that we need to wrestle through do with that we need to wrestle through do with that we need to wrestle through this right this right this right um I think with our pastors so that we um I think with our pastors so that we um I think with our pastors so that we can have a healthy view of men and women can have a healthy view of men and women can have a healthy view of men and women using their gifts because when the body using their gifts because when the body using their gifts because when the body of Christ I I believe when women are not of Christ I I believe when women are not of Christ I I believe when women are not using their gifts in the church the body using their gifts in the church the body using their gifts in the church the body suffers there's a passage Ephesians 4 suffers there's a passage Ephesians 4 suffers there's a passage Ephesians 4 verse 7 it says now Grace was given to verse 7 it says now Grace was given to verse 7 it says now Grace was given to each one of us according to the measure each one of us according to the measure each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift for it says when he of Christ's gift for it says when he of Christ's gift for it says when he ascended on high he took the captives ascended on high he took the captives ascended on high he took the captives captive and he gave gifts to people and captive and he gave gifts to people and captive and he gave gifts to people and then it goes on he gave some to be then it goes on he gave some to be then it goes on he gave some to be Apostles prophets evangelist pastors Apostles prophets evangelist pastors Apostles prophets evangelist pastors teachers to equip the Saints for the teachers to equip the Saints for the teachers to equip the Saints for the work of ministry to build up the body of work of ministry to build up the body of work of ministry to build up the body of Christ until we all reach unity in the Christ until we all reach unity in the Christ until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of God's son faith and in the knowledge of God's son faith and in the knowledge of God's son growing into maturity with a stature growing into maturity with a stature growing into maturity with a stature measured by Christ fullness that's men measured by Christ fullness that's men measured by Christ fullness that's men and women together now I don't believe and women together now I don't believe and women together now I don't believe that you know women should be Apostles that you know women should be Apostles that you know women should be Apostles or you know what I mean like I don't or you know what I mean like I don't or you know what I mean like I don't believe they should be Elders um but believe they should be Elders um but believe they should be Elders um but there are other gifts that are listed there are other gifts that are listed there are other gifts that are listed there that I believe uh include us so there that I believe uh include us so there that I believe uh include us so what does that look like in the context what does that look like in the context what does that look like in the context of your church so time is getting on of your church so time is getting on of your church so time is getting on from us which is this is so fun but I from us which is this is so fun but I from us which is this is so fun but I want to um sort of bring us down to the want to um sort of bring us down to the want to um sort of bring us down to the super practical level here so we have a super practical level here so we have a super practical level here so we have a room full of women here so what is one room full of women here so what is one room full of women here so what is one thing maybe that a woman in this room thing maybe that a woman in this room thing maybe that a woman in this room could do this Sunday to just improve the

could do this Sunday to just improve the could do this Sunday to just improve the working relationship of brothers and working relationship of brothers and working relationship of brothers and sisters in her church like what what can sisters in her church like what what can sisters in her church like what what can a woman sitting out here do um just just a woman sitting out here do um just just a woman sitting out here do um just just to make things a little bit to make things a little bit to make things a little bit better I really do like that question of better I really do like that question of better I really do like that question of just asking well what would you find just asking well what would you find just asking well what would you find helpful Pastor what helpful Pastor what helpful Pastor what would um be an asset to you right now in would um be an asset to you right now in would um be an asset to you right now in the ministry where are you burdened you the ministry where are you burdened you the ministry where are you burdened you know how can I come alongside and Aid know how can I come alongside and Aid know how can I come alongside and Aid and then also um in in communication and then also um in in communication and then also um in in communication practicing giving the benefit of the practicing giving the benefit of the practicing giving the benefit of the doubt that a lot of times our brothers doubt that a lot of times our brothers doubt that a lot of times our brothers in Christ um you know and I gave that in Christ um you know and I gave that in Christ um you know and I gave that example in my own history our brothers example in my own history our brothers example in my own history our brothers in Christ are wrestling with more than in Christ are wrestling with more than in Christ are wrestling with more than what meets thei just like we are and so what meets thei just like we are and so what meets thei just like we are and so a lot of times the initial assumption is a lot of times the initial assumption is a lot of times the initial assumption is not correct about their heart and so um not correct about their heart and so um not correct about their heart and so um given the benefit of the doubt and and given the benefit of the doubt and and given the benefit of the doubt and and asking how to be a asking how to be a asking how to be a help I was just thinking the importance help I was just thinking the importance help I was just thinking the importance of Thanksgiving are there ways that you of Thanksgiving are there ways that you of Thanksgiving are there ways that you can Express gratitude for the things can Express gratitude for the things can Express gratitude for the things that your pastors are doing already um that your pastors are doing already um that your pastors are doing already um um when you hear encouraging things in um when you hear encouraging things in um when you hear encouraging things in the sermons do you mention that to your the sermons do you mention that to your the sermons do you mention that to your pastor thank you so much or you share pastor thank you so much or you share pastor thank you so much or you share this particular application that really this particular application that really this particular application that really help me or bless me or um maybe an help me or bless me or um maybe an help me or bless me or um maybe an illustration you use in the church about illustration you use in the church about illustration you use in the church about how sister so and so is doing such and how sister so and so is doing such and how sister so and so is doing such and such in the church and that you know I such in the church and that you know I such in the church and that you know I think just encouraging uh what you what think just encouraging uh what you what think just encouraging uh what you what you already see in you already see in you already see in place I I do think it's important for

place I I do think it's important for place I I do think it's important for women and men to have venues like this women and men to have venues like this women and men to have venues like this one where dominantly one gender gets one where dominantly one gender gets one where dominantly one gender gets together and talks about things that are together and talks about things that are together and talks about things that are peculiar to your gender I led a men's peculiar to your gender I led a men's peculiar to your gender I led a men's bible study for 20 years uh 22 years um bible study for 20 years uh 22 years um bible study for 20 years uh 22 years um and I mean it was wonderful to get these and I mean it was wonderful to get these and I mean it was wonderful to get these guys sort of in a mail hot box and talk guys sort of in a mail hot box and talk guys sort of in a mail hot box and talk directly about being a dad being a directly about being a dad being a directly about being a dad being a husband all kinds of things that are husband all kinds of things that are husband all kinds of things that are peculiar to them and I and this is so peculiar to them and I and this is so peculiar to them and I and this is so sweet I mean I I feel almost uh sweet I mean I I feel almost uh sweet I mean I I feel almost uh embarrassed to be out there to be able embarrassed to be out there to be able embarrassed to be out there to be able to listen to this beautiful singing with to listen to this beautiful singing with to listen to this beautiful singing with 9200 women singing but I'm so grateful 9200 women singing but I'm so grateful 9200 women singing but I'm so grateful that my little granddaughter Claire and that my little granddaughter Claire and that my little granddaughter Claire and my granddaughter Maggie and my daughter my granddaughter Maggie and my daughter my granddaughter Maggie and my daughter Mary and my wife Alison and I are all Mary and my wife Alison and I are all Mary and my wife Alison and I are all sitting there together the tears sitting there together the tears sitting there together the tears streaming down our faces just worshiping streaming down our faces just worshiping streaming down our faces just worshiping together with with you and women's together with with you and women's together with with you and women's events and men's events uh and events and men's events uh and events and men's events uh and fellowship is very important and I would fellowship is very important and I would fellowship is very important and I would say especially when it comes to say especially when it comes to say especially when it comes to discipleship and discipleship and discipleship and shepherding I just don't believe that a shepherding I just don't believe that a shepherding I just don't believe that a male Pastor can really Shepherd a male Pastor can really Shepherd a male Pastor can really Shepherd a woman's heart woman's heart woman's heart uh intimately it's way too close so to uh intimately it's way too close so to uh intimately it's way too close so to me I need to be shepher a group of women me I need to be shepher a group of women me I need to be shepher a group of women which I do and train them in shepherding which I do and train them in shepherding which I do and train them in shepherding just like I train the elders so it's the just like I train the elders so it's the just like I train the elders so it's the same training and begging them please same training and begging them please same training and begging them please let let us know how we need to help you let let us know how we need to help you let let us know how we need to help you in shepherding the women of the church in shepherding the women of the church in shepherding the women of the church so I guess my answer is if there's some so I guess my answer is if there's some so I guess my answer is if there's some way what about the single woman who may

way what about the single woman who may way what about the single woman who may be feeling left be feeling left be feeling left out you can reach her a lot better than out you can reach her a lot better than out you can reach her a lot better than I can and so one thing to do is look out I can and so one thing to do is look out I can and so one thing to do is look out for those that you know you can reach for those that you know you can reach for those that you know you can reach that the elders are not going to be able that the elders are not going to be able that the elders are not going to be able to reach in the same way we're all under to reach in the same way we're all under to reach in the same way we're all under their leadership I'm under their their leadership I'm under their their leadership I'm under their leadership but we all have leadership but we all have leadership but we all have peculiar uh advantages in dealing with peculiar uh advantages in dealing with peculiar uh advantages in dealing with certain people so um I just really value certain people so um I just really value certain people so um I just really value the women Shepherds if I can put it that the women Shepherds if I can put it that the women Shepherds if I can put it that way the way the way the shepherdesses they have the same shepherdesses they have the same shepherdesses they have the same instincts as the elders if I have a good instincts as the elders if I have a good instincts as the elders if I have a good Elder I have just as many women who are Elder I have just as many women who are Elder I have just as many women who are thinking exactly the same way and they thinking exactly the same way and they thinking exactly the same way and they disciple and Shepherd in the same way disciple and Shepherd in the same way disciple and Shepherd in the same way one has authority to rule and govern one has authority to rule and govern one has authority to rule and govern those are the elders and the others those are the elders and the others those are the elders and the others don't have the authority to rule and don't have the authority to rule and don't have the authority to rule and govern the the uh church as an govern the the uh church as an govern the the uh church as an institution but they're doing the same institution but they're doing the same institution but they're doing the same work so I think aspiring to do just what work so I think aspiring to do just what work so I think aspiring to do just what you're talking about Wendy if we can all you're talking about Wendy if we can all you're talking about Wendy if we can all just disciple and shepher care for just disciple and shepher care for just disciple and shepher care for people and if you're a woman you've got people and if you're a woman you've got people and if you're a woman you've got access to the heart that outside of my access to the heart that outside of my access to the heart that outside of my wife and my daughters and my wife and my daughters and my wife and my daughters and my granddaughters I'm just never going to granddaughters I'm just never going to granddaughters I'm just never going to be as close as you're going to be as close as you're going to be as close as you're going to be Wendy can you tell us a quick story be Wendy can you tell us a quick story be Wendy can you tell us a quick story of one time that you were really of one time that you were really of one time that you were really grateful for grateful for grateful for complimentary well um I've really been complimentary well um I've really been complimentary well um I've really been grateful for um how it's discipled me to grateful for um how it's discipled me to grateful for um how it's discipled me to Value the gifts that my brothers bring Value the gifts that my brothers bring Value the gifts that my brothers bring that I don't have so valuing their that I don't have so valuing their that I don't have so valuing their distinctions as well and for me in my

distinctions as well and for me in my distinctions as well and for me in my church because I had male pastors at at church because I had male pastors at at church because I had male pastors at at the loss of my divorce we lost a male the loss of my divorce we lost a male the loss of my divorce we lost a male input into our family and so it has input into our family and so it has input into our family and so it has blessed me to have the male leadership blessed me to have the male leadership blessed me to have the male leadership speaking into our family um in a way speaking into our family um in a way speaking into our family um in a way that I really felt lost without it and that I really felt lost without it and that I really felt lost without it and so I've really my father my my pastors so I've really my father my my pastors so I've really my father my my pastors they've they've spoken into my life in a they've they've spoken into my life in a they've they've spoken into my life in a really meaningful way that it wouldn't really meaningful way that it wouldn't really meaningful way that it wouldn't have happened without this understanding have happened without this understanding have happened without this understanding of of of scripture we so glad that you are here scripture we so glad that you are here scripture we so glad that you are here and had this conversation which we pray and had this conversation which we pray and had this conversation which we pray that you will continue to have the that you will continue to have the that you will continue to have the conversations as you go out from here conversations as you go out from here conversations as you go out from here and let me just close us all in and let me just close us all in and let me just close us all in prayer Father in heaven we thank you so prayer Father in heaven we thank you so prayer Father in heaven we thank you so much for the goodness of this world that much for the goodness of this world that much for the goodness of this world that you have created and that you did create you have created and that you did create you have created and that you did create man male and female and set them in your man male and female and set them in your man male and female and set them in your world and you brought them into your world and you brought them into your world and you brought them into your kingdom and Lord these are difficult kingdom and Lord these are difficult kingdom and Lord these are difficult things and they're challenging sort of things and they're challenging sort of things and they're challenging sort of both on a big picture level and also on both on a big picture level and also on both on a big picture level and also on a what do I do this week kind of level a what do I do this week kind of level a what do I do this week kind of level and we pray that you would help us to and we pray that you would help us to and we pray that you would help us to navigate these things well that we would navigate these things well that we would navigate these things well that we would be the best sisters that we can be to be the best sisters that we can be to be the best sisters that we can be to our brothers and that you would help our brothers and that you would help our brothers and that you would help them to be good Brothers to us and that them to be good Brothers to us and that them to be good Brothers to us and that your church might be a beautiful picture your church might be a beautiful picture your church might be a beautiful picture of your intent for her of men and women of your intent for her of men and women of your intent for her of men and women working together uh for the kingdom in working together uh for the kingdom in working together uh for the kingdom in compliment complimentary ways Lord we compliment complimentary ways Lord we compliment complimentary ways Lord we thank you so much uh for the Lord Jesus thank you so much uh for the Lord Jesus thank you so much uh for the Lord Jesus Christ and we pray uh that she would be Christ and we pray uh that she would be Christ and we pray uh that she would be glorified in all things and it is in his

glorified in all things and it is in his glorified in all things and it is in his name that we pray amen name that we pray amen name that we pray amen are you looking for more trusted gospel are you looking for more trusted gospel are you looking for more trusted gospel centered resources for women visit TGC centered resources for women visit TGC centered resources for women visit TGC women.org or click the link below women.org or click the link below women.org or click the link below [Music]