Top 10 Theology Stories Since 2000 Part 2 [Gospelbound - Ep. 180]

In May of 2005, In May of 2005, Don Carson says, Don Carson says, Don Carson says, "Homosexuality will be to the 21st "Homosexuality will be to the 21st "Homosexuality will be to the 21st century as indulgences were to the 16th century as indulgences were to the 16th century as indulgences were to the 16th century. They will not be the issue that century. They will not be the issue that century. They will not be the issue that divides the church, but the presenting divides the church, but the presenting divides the church, but the presenting issue that divides the church." issue that divides the church." issue that divides the church." We're talking top theological stories We're talking top theological stories We're talking top theological stories last 25 years. last 25 years. last 25 years. Every major mainline denomination split Every major mainline denomination split Every major mainline denomination split over this. >> Hello everyone, and welcome to Gospel >> Hello everyone, and welcome to Gospel Bound. I am not Collin Hansen, but I am Bound. I am not Collin Hansen, but I am Bound. I am not Collin Hansen, but I am here with him and with our friend and here with him and with our friend and here with him and with our friend and colleague Mike Graham, who is the colleague Mike Graham, who is the colleague Mike Graham, who is the program director at TGC's Keller Center program director at TGC's Keller Center program director at TGC's Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. My name is for Cultural Apologetics. My name is for Cultural Apologetics. My name is Sarah Zylstra, and I'm a journalist at Sarah Zylstra, and I'm a journalist at Sarah Zylstra, and I'm a journalist at The Gospel Coalition, and I am here The Gospel Coalition, and I am here The Gospel Coalition, and I am here today to ask the questions. Mike and today to ask the questions. Mike and today to ask the questions. Mike and Collin, it is great to see you again.

Collin, it is great to see you again. Collin, it is great to see you again. >> Let's keep doing this, Sarah. We're on a >> Let's keep doing this, Sarah. We're on a >> Let's keep doing this, Sarah. We're on a roll. roll. roll. >> Let's keep going. >> Let's keep going. >> Let's keep going. >> going. >> going. >> going. >> Um as our listeners of last episode >> Um as our listeners of last episode >> Um as our listeners of last episode know, we are halfway through a know, we are halfway through a know, we are halfway through a fascinating list, and this is the top 10 fascinating list, and this is the top 10 fascinating list, and this is the top 10 theological stories of the 2020 of the theological stories of the 2020 of the theological stories of the 2020 of the 2000s. I was about to say 2020s, that 2000s. I was about to say 2020s, that 2000s. I was about to say 2020s, that would be a lot theological stories, would be a lot theological stories, would be a lot theological stories, yeah. yeah. yeah. Um of the 2000s, life has changed Um of the 2000s, life has changed Um of the 2000s, life has changed dramatically for all of us in a lot of dramatically for all of us in a lot of dramatically for all of us in a lot of ways in the last 25 years, thanks ways in the last 25 years, thanks ways in the last 25 years, thanks smartphones and social media, changing smartphones and social media, changing smartphones and social media, changing views on sexuality, and painful views on sexuality, and painful views on sexuality, and painful political polarization. And we hear political polarization. And we hear political polarization. And we hear about all those things in the mainstream about all those things in the mainstream about all those things in the mainstream media or on our social media feeds, but media or on our social media feeds, but media or on our social media feeds, but what we hear about less, um and what I'd what we hear about less, um and what I'd what we hear about less, um and what I'd argue is even more consequential, is the argue is even more consequential, is the argue is even more consequential, is the story lines of how our country's story lines of how our country's story lines of how our country's relationship with God has changed and relationship with God has changed and relationship with God has changed and shifted since the 1990s. shifted since the 1990s. shifted since the 1990s. That has been significant, and I think That has been significant, and I think That has been significant, and I think it affects all of these other stories. it affects all of these other stories. it affects all of these other stories. So, So a quick recap from what we did So, So a quick recap from what we did So, So a quick recap from what we did last time. Um number 10 on our list of last time. Um number 10 on our list of last time. Um number 10 on our list of top 10 theological stories was the top 10 theological stories was the top 10 theological stories was the global church leadership moves south, global church leadership moves south, global church leadership moves south, and by that we mean Africa south.

and by that we mean Africa south. and by that we mean Africa south. Um number nine was denominations decline Um number nine was denominations decline Um number nine was denominations decline as non-denominational churches rise, and as non-denominational churches rise, and as non-denominational churches rise, and maybe some of that is just maybe some of that is just maybe some of that is just denominational churches taking the denominational churches taking the denominational churches taking the denominational name off of their sign. denominational name off of their sign. denominational name off of their sign. Um number eight is China cracks down um Um number eight is China cracks down um Um number eight is China cracks down um following the fast growth of the church following the fast growth of the church following the fast growth of the church there, and we could also say that about there, and we could also say that about there, and we could also say that about other areas of the world, but China is other areas of the world, but China is other areas of the world, but China is the one that has been in the news the the one that has been in the news the the one that has been in the news the most. most. most. Uh seven is the great dechurching, which Uh seven is the great dechurching, which Uh seven is the great dechurching, which is um forcing or maybe opening up is um forcing or maybe opening up is um forcing or maybe opening up opportunities to different apologetic opportunities to different apologetic opportunities to different apologetic strategies for the church. And number strategies for the church. And number strategies for the church. And number six was the great awakening, which runs six was the great awakening, which runs six was the great awakening, which runs from Ferguson to Floyd, and which um from Ferguson to Floyd, and which um from Ferguson to Floyd, and which um changed a lot of ways that people think changed a lot of ways that people think changed a lot of ways that people think about things. about things. about things. Today we're going to finish up our list, Today we're going to finish up our list, Today we're going to finish up our list, and we're going to work our way from and we're going to work our way from and we're going to work our way from number five to number one. You guys number five to number one. You guys number five to number one. You guys ready for this? ready for this? ready for this? >> As ready as I'll ever be. >> As ready as I'll ever be. >> As ready as I'll ever be. >> All right. >> All right. >> All right. >> idea, and it's my list, and I'm still >> idea, and it's my list, and I'm still >> idea, and it's my list, and I'm still daunted by it. daunted by it. daunted by it. >> All right, let's let's just take one >> All right, let's let's just take one >> All right, let's let's just take one bite at a time. bite at a time. bite at a time. >> Yeah. Colin, what's number five? Tell us >> Yeah. Colin, what's number five? Tell us >> Yeah. Colin, what's number five? Tell us what number five is.

what number five is. what number five is. >> It's a little little worrisome when when >> It's a little little worrisome when when >> It's a little little worrisome when when your number five is COVID-19 shutting your number five is COVID-19 shutting your number five is COVID-19 shutting the world down. If that's not number the world down. If that's not number the world down. If that's not number one, you got to wonder what the other one, you got to wonder what the other one, you got to wonder what the other four are going to be four are going to be four are going to be in here. Um in here. Um in here. Um I need to go back and give some context I need to go back and give some context I need to go back and give some context here. It's fascinating what from history here. It's fascinating what from history here. It's fascinating what from history we choose to remember what we choose to we choose to remember what we choose to we choose to remember what we choose to forget. forget. forget. Um this is um I think I remember first Um this is um I think I remember first Um this is um I think I remember first seeing this from Andy Crouch, which seeing this from Andy Crouch, which seeing this from Andy Crouch, which shout out to Andy as having the best shout out to Andy as having the best shout out to Andy as having the best early insight uh to COVID-19 that helped early insight uh to COVID-19 that helped early insight uh to COVID-19 that helped me and countless others um during those me and countless others um during those me and countless others um during those days in 2020, but this was the biggest days in 2020, but this was the biggest days in 2020, but this was the biggest disruption in physical church meetings disruption in physical church meetings disruption in physical church meetings across the world since the Black Death across the world since the Black Death across the world since the Black Death of the 14th century. of the 14th century. of the 14th century. I mean, we've had wars, we've had other I mean, we've had wars, we've had other I mean, we've had wars, we've had other diseases, we've had flus, we've had all diseases, we've had flus, we've had all diseases, we've had flus, we've had all sorts of different stuff, but we've sorts of different stuff, but we've sorts of different stuff, but we've never had a disruption like this. The never had a disruption like this. The never had a disruption like this. The church is physically meeting together. church is physically meeting together. church is physically meeting together. Um one thing I often will will tell Um one thing I often will will tell Um one thing I often will will tell people, it's one of those things, not people, it's one of those things, not people, it's one of those things, not just looking for what happened, but what just looking for what happened, but what just looking for what happened, but what did not happen. It is the first major did not happen. It is the first major did not happen. It is the first major national tragedy in American history national tragedy in American history national tragedy in American history with no call for religious unity or with no call for religious unity or with no call for religious unity or meeting where, especially in those early meeting where, especially in those early meeting where, especially in those early days with with President Trump and those days with with President Trump and those days with with President Trump and those press conferences, the the high priests press conferences, the the high priests press conferences, the the high priests of our cultural um interpretation and of our cultural um interpretation and of our cultural um interpretation and intercession were the scientists.

intercession were the scientists. intercession were the scientists. Um that that was originally everybody Um that that was originally everybody Um that that was originally everybody looked that but you you saw no part of looked that but you you saw no part of looked that but you you saw no part of it's because of the inability to gather, it's because of the inability to gather, it's because of the inability to gather, but there was no major push for coming but there was no major push for coming but there was no major push for coming together, no major I mean, there was together, no major I mean, there was together, no major I mean, there was some of it, which was undone by um some of it, which was undone by um some of it, which was undone by um especially the response um well, the especially the response um well, the especially the response um well, the death of George Floyd and the response death of George Floyd and the response death of George Floyd and the response to it. That goes back to our earlier a to it. That goes back to our earlier a to it. That goes back to our earlier a conversation because these two are very conversation because these two are very conversation because these two are very linked. That's why they're together. linked. That's why they're together. linked. That's why they're together. This top 10 list, they're distinct, but This top 10 list, they're distinct, but This top 10 list, they're distinct, but they're but they're linked. But there they're but they're linked. But there they're but they're linked. But there was no major push toward um kind of a a was no major push toward um kind of a a was no major push toward um kind of a a turn toward God or a turn toward um turn toward God or a turn toward um turn toward God or a turn toward um intercession from religious leaders or intercession from religious leaders or intercession from religious leaders or let alone Christian leaders there. let alone Christian leaders there. let alone Christian leaders there. But then, as we've seen already with so But then, as we've seen already with so But then, as we've seen already with so many of these other stories, there was a many of these other stories, there was a many of these other stories, there was a major backlash. major backlash. major backlash. So, science scientists are held up as So, science scientists are held up as So, science scientists are held up as the great high priests to intercede on the great high priests to intercede on the great high priests to intercede on our behalf. our behalf. our behalf. And yet then, as more information comes And yet then, as more information comes And yet then, as more information comes out and the the lying, the admitted out and the the lying, the admitted out and the the lying, the admitted confessed since then lying, some from of confessed since then lying, some from of confessed since then lying, some from of those same scientific leaders, things those same scientific leaders, things those same scientific leaders, things about masks, things about 6 ft apart, about masks, things about 6 ft apart, about masks, things about 6 ft apart, things that they just spoke confidently things that they just spoke confidently things that they just spoke confidently about that they did not understand. I about that they did not understand. I about that they did not understand. I did a podcast um later look earlier look did a podcast um later look earlier look did a podcast um later look earlier look in the Gospel Bound on 5 years in the Gospel Bound on 5 years in the Gospel Bound on 5 years uh since um since COVID-19 shut the uh since um since COVID-19 shut the uh since um since COVID-19 shut the world down. I talked more about that world down. I talked more about that world down. I talked more about that there.

there. there. But this has been a major catalyst for But this has been a major catalyst for But this has been a major catalyst for widespread institutional mistrust. widespread institutional mistrust. widespread institutional mistrust. And that affects church leaders. That And that affects church leaders. That And that affects church leaders. That affects our work at the Gospel affects our work at the Gospel affects our work at the Gospel Coalition. That affects everybody. That Coalition. That affects everybody. That Coalition. That affects everybody. That affects theologians. That expects affects theologians. That expects affects theologians. That expects affects how people learn. affects how people learn. affects how people learn. And also, And also, And also, I think something that had been I think I think something that had been I think I think something that had been I think it was Ross Douthat who said that it was Ross Douthat who said that it was Ross Douthat who said that COVID-19 I can't remember what he said. COVID-19 I can't remember what he said. COVID-19 I can't remember what he said. Was it like 5 years happened in 1 year? Was it like 5 years happened in 1 year? Was it like 5 years happened in 1 year? Things that might have taken a 10 Was it Things that might have taken a 10 Was it Things that might have taken a 10 Was it 10? 10? 10? >> 10. >> 10. >> 10. >> Yeah, so a decade a decade happened >> Yeah, so a decade a decade happened >> Yeah, so a decade a decade happened >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, Douthat said we had a decade's worth of Douthat said we had a decade's worth of Douthat said we had a decade's worth of conversations in 1 year. conversations in 1 year. conversations in 1 year. >> Yeah, so I suppose that probably >> Yeah, so I suppose that probably >> Yeah, so I suppose that probably includes Floyd then as well. But like a includes Floyd then as well. But like a includes Floyd then as well. But like a 10 10 years of 10 10 years of 10 10 years of shifting toward online being shifting toward online being shifting toward online being prime. prime. prime. Um of of just everybody being forced to Um of of just everybody being forced to Um of of just everybody being forced to learn how to do Zoom at the same time. learn how to do Zoom at the same time. learn how to do Zoom at the same time. Um I mean just look at all the podcasts. Um I mean just look at all the podcasts. Um I mean just look at all the podcasts. My podcast started right, but this My podcast started right, but this My podcast started right, but this podcast started right before COVID-19. podcast started right before COVID-19. podcast started right before COVID-19. But look at that huge huge growth But look at that huge huge growth But look at that huge huge growth afterward as well. So just the sense afterward as well. So just the sense afterward as well. So just the sense that that that the real action is happening online.

the real action is happening online. the real action is happening online. Now, that might be even be unwound. I Now, that might be even be unwound. I Now, that might be even be unwound. I don't know how AI is going to affect don't know how AI is going to affect don't know how AI is going to affect that, but that might even be that might that, but that might even be that might that, but that might even be that might even unwind um in the days ahead. But even unwind um in the days ahead. But even unwind um in the days ahead. But that was a a huge implication. And then that was a a huge implication. And then that was a a huge implication. And then just the the last im- implication to just the the last im- implication to just the the last im- implication to think about is had huge um theological think about is had huge um theological think about is had huge um theological effects in so many different ways, but effects in so many different ways, but effects in so many different ways, but it connects back to one of the earlier it connects back to one of the earlier it connects back to one of the earlier topics. topics. topics. This is something that really can This is something that really can This is something that really can continue to a divide the West from the continue to a divide the West from the continue to a divide the West from the East. East. East. And um and of course, a lot of this has And um and of course, a lot of this has And um and of course, a lot of this has to do with the way the the disease came to do with the way the the disease came to do with the way the the disease came out of China. out of China. out of China. And then efforts to be able to to cover And then efforts to be able to to cover And then efforts to be able to to cover for how that disease originated, which for how that disease originated, which for how that disease originated, which still is not still is not still is not commonly determined as far as I know. Um commonly determined as far as I know. Um commonly determined as far as I know. Um plenty of people have strong theses, and plenty of people have strong theses, and plenty of people have strong theses, and some stronger than others, but I don't some stronger than others, but I don't some stronger than others, but I don't think that's been officially think that's been officially think that's been officially acknowledged as far as I know. acknowledged as far as I know. acknowledged as far as I know. Um but just a a lot of that mistrust Um but just a a lot of that mistrust Um but just a a lot of that mistrust across the East and the West and I across the East and the West and I across the East and the West and I alluded to this earlier with the with alluded to this earlier with the with alluded to this earlier with the with the broader dynamics with with China, the broader dynamics with with China, the broader dynamics with with China, but um but um but um significant response then and I'm not significant response then and I'm not significant response then and I'm not necessarily saying that these are are necessarily saying that these are are necessarily saying that these are are linked, but part of the broader linked, but part of the broader linked, but part of the broader separation between East and West would separation between East and West would separation between East and West would be Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The be Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The be Russia's invasion of Ukraine. The significant persecution um by Russians significant persecution um by Russians significant persecution um by Russians toward evangelical Baptist uh leaders toward evangelical Baptist uh leaders toward evangelical Baptist uh leaders across Ukraine. Um across Ukraine. Um across Ukraine. Um it's there was just a a sense that the it's there was just a a sense that the it's there was just a a sense that the world was descending into a chaos world was descending into a chaos world was descending into a chaos that we had not seen in literally more that we had not seen in literally more that we had not seen in literally more than fifth Well, I mean, we're talking than fifth Well, I mean, we're talking than fifth Well, I mean, we're talking closer to 70 years at that point. So,

closer to 70 years at that point. So, closer to 70 years at that point. So, you see the largest land war in Europe you see the largest land war in Europe you see the largest land war in Europe since the since 1945. since the since 1945. since the since 1945. You then saw the largest murder of Jews You then saw the largest murder of Jews You then saw the largest murder of Jews since the Holocaust in 2023 on October since the Holocaust in 2023 on October since the Holocaust in 2023 on October 7th. Um so, COVID-19 was not directly 7th. Um so, COVID-19 was not directly 7th. Um so, COVID-19 was not directly responsible, but was the most responsible, but was the most responsible, but was the most significant catalyst in a broader sense significant catalyst in a broader sense significant catalyst in a broader sense of destabilization, especially in the of destabilization, especially in the of destabilization, especially in the last, you know, 5 years of these of this last, you know, 5 years of these of this last, you know, 5 years of these of this 25-year period. So, um 25-year period. So, um 25-year period. So, um I I when I'm talking to audiences about I I when I'm talking to audiences about I I when I'm talking to audiences about this, I just tell them this, I just tell them this, I just tell them you can think about it in the aggregate, you can think about it in the aggregate, you can think about it in the aggregate, but also just think about it in your but also just think about it in your but also just think about it in your personal life. personal life. personal life. I bet that COVID-19, as much as anything I bet that COVID-19, as much as anything I bet that COVID-19, as much as anything else on this list, else on this list, else on this list, changed something in a very concrete way changed something in a very concrete way changed something in a very concrete way in your life. Could be a good way. in your life. Could be a good way. in your life. Could be a good way. Uh could be a negative way, but there's Uh could be a negative way, but there's Uh could be a negative way, but there's no doubt that was not something that no doubt that was not something that no doubt that was not something that left any of us untouched. left any of us untouched. left any of us untouched. >> Mike, do you have numbers for what it >> Mike, do you have numbers for what it >> Mike, do you have numbers for what it did to the church? did to the church? did to the church? Like church attendance? Like church attendance? Like church attendance? >> There was definitely a spike in >> There was definitely a spike in >> There was definitely a spike in de-churching that de-churching that de-churching that you know, that was around that time. Um you know, that was around that time. Um you know, that was around that time. Um the attendance numbers that different the attendance numbers that different the attendance numbers that different denominations publish all show a denominations publish all show a denominations publish all show a precipitous drop precipitous drop precipitous drop in that time frame. Most have kind of in that time frame. Most have kind of in that time frame. Most have kind of done what they call regression to the done what they call regression to the done what they call regression to the mean. So, whatever the denomination was mean. So, whatever the denomination was mean. So, whatever the denomination was doing after about three three four doing after about three three four doing after about three three four years, it was roughly kind of on that years, it was roughly kind of on that years, it was roughly kind of on that same path. So, it does seem like most of same path. So, it does seem like most of same path. So, it does seem like most of the things that happened during that

the things that happened during that the things that happened during that time weren't necessarily permanent. And time weren't necessarily permanent. And time weren't necessarily permanent. And I think a lot of the churches that, you I think a lot of the churches that, you I think a lot of the churches that, you know, tried to know, tried to know, tried to you know, pivot online. I think 90% of you know, pivot online. I think 90% of you know, pivot online. I think 90% of churches had some kind of online churches had some kind of online churches had some kind of online manifestation. manifestation. manifestation. I think most have not, you know, kind of I think most have not, you know, kind of I think most have not, you know, kind of stuck with at least the same modalities stuck with at least the same modalities stuck with at least the same modalities and those kinds of things. So, it feels and those kinds of things. So, it feels and those kinds of things. So, it feels like a temporary more of a temporary like a temporary more of a temporary like a temporary more of a temporary disruption than a permanent one. disruption than a permanent one. disruption than a permanent one. >> Yeah. Although, Collin, as you're >> Yeah. Although, Collin, as you're >> Yeah. Although, Collin, as you're saying, you know, there's probably saying, you know, there's probably saying, you know, there's probably something in your life that's different. something in your life that's different. something in your life that's different. I bet there's also something about your I bet there's also something about your I bet there's also something about your church, right? Or like maybe you do more church, right? Or like maybe you do more church, right? Or like maybe you do more Zoom meetings or you probably My church Zoom meetings or you probably My church Zoom meetings or you probably My church is still live streaming. I think one is still live streaming. I think one is still live streaming. I think one person watches, right? But you kind of person watches, right? But you kind of person watches, right? But you kind of got in the habit of like, well, I guess got in the habit of like, well, I guess got in the habit of like, well, I guess we now we live stream. It's easy. You we now we live stream. It's easy. You we now we live stream. It's easy. You just push this button and yeah. just push this button and yeah. just push this button and yeah. >> We do We do continuing education cohorts >> We do We do continuing education cohorts >> We do We do continuing education cohorts through the Gospel Coalition because through the Gospel Coalition because through the Gospel Coalition because everybody knows how to use Zoom now. So, everybody knows how to use Zoom now. So, everybody knows how to use Zoom now. So, what we found is that Zoom is no what we found is that Zoom is no what we found is that Zoom is no replacement whatsoever for regular replacement whatsoever for regular replacement whatsoever for regular ongoing education, especially for ongoing education, especially for ongoing education, especially for children.

children. children. But it can be a really excellent But it can be a really excellent But it can be a really excellent supplement in a way that could put you supplement in a way that could put you supplement in a way that could put you directly in touch with the best teachers directly in touch with the best teachers directly in touch with the best teachers in an interactive format around the in an interactive format around the in an interactive format around the world. So, it doesn't replace anything. world. So, it doesn't replace anything. world. So, it doesn't replace anything. We're There's no widespread movement to We're There's no widespread movement to We're There's no widespread movement to say, what we really need is to move say, what we really need is to move say, what we really need is to move elementary education online. There's no elementary education online. There's no elementary education online. There's no movement to say we should be moving movement to say we should be moving movement to say we should be moving college education online. In In some college education online. In In some college education online. In In some way, that 10-year experiment, Mike, way, that 10-year experiment, Mike, way, that 10-year experiment, Mike, might have killed the possibility of might have killed the possibility of might have killed the possibility of more shifting. 10 years in 1 year killed more shifting. 10 years in 1 year killed more shifting. 10 years in 1 year killed the possibility of a lot more shifting the possibility of a lot more shifting the possibility of a lot more shifting toward toward toward um education online. It's It's It's um education online. It's It's It's um education online. It's It's It's clearly not something that's very good, clearly not something that's very good, clearly not something that's very good, but it's good as a as a supplement. I but it's good as a as a supplement. I but it's good as a as a supplement. I just think back to the book that I did just think back to the book that I did just think back to the book that I did during that period called Rediscover during that period called Rediscover during that period called Rediscover Church, which Jonathan Leeman, and when Church, which Jonathan Leeman, and when Church, which Jonathan Leeman, and when we were writing that book, right as as we were writing that book, right as as we were writing that book, right as as all of this was happening cuz it was all of this was happening cuz it was all of this was happening cuz it was motivated by this trend, motivated by this trend, motivated by this trend, we we thought, we don't know if people we we thought, we don't know if people we we thought, we don't know if people are going to come back. Uh are going to come back. Uh are going to come back. Uh people don't even think anymore about people don't even think anymore about people don't even think anymore about how uh Mark Zuckerberg was going to lead how uh Mark Zuckerberg was going to lead how uh Mark Zuckerberg was going to lead us all into the metaverse. We're all us all into the metaverse. We're all us all into the metaverse. We're all going to have these online avatars.

going to have these online avatars. going to have these online avatars. We're all going to go to church. There We're all going to go to church. There We're all going to go to church. There were church plants in the in the were church plants in the in the were church plants in the in the metaverse, and everybody saw that they metaverse, and everybody saw that they metaverse, and everybody saw that they kind of looked like those little kind of looked like those little kind of looked like those little Playmobil um like stick figure Playmobil um like stick figure Playmobil um like stick figure characters. characters. characters. >> They look They look like the Wii the Wii >> They look They look like the Wii the Wii >> They look They look like the Wii the Wii characters from the old Nintendo Wii. characters from the old Nintendo Wii. characters from the old Nintendo Wii. Like the bowling game. Like the bowling game. Like the bowling game. >> Speaking of the last 25 years, I can I >> Speaking of the last 25 years, I can I >> Speaking of the last 25 years, I can I have the I have the music in my head have the I have the music in my head have the I have the music in my head now. now. now. Like just kind of bouncing around. Like just kind of bouncing around. Like just kind of bouncing around. >> Like >> Like >> Like Zuckerberg spent like tens of billions Zuckerberg spent like tens of billions Zuckerberg spent like tens of billions of dollars in metas. of dollars in metas. of dollars in metas. That is good cash. That is good cash. That is good cash. >> They changed their name to meta. >> They changed their name to meta. >> They changed their name to meta. >> And they blew all that foolish >> And they blew all that foolish >> And they blew all that foolish metaverse. metaverse. metaverse. >> So, >> So, >> So, >> And And you remember all those Fortune >> And And you remember all those Fortune >> And And you remember all those Fortune 500 companies, they all said, "Oh, we're 500 companies, they all said, "Oh, we're 500 companies, they all said, "Oh, we're going 100% work from home." And it's going 100% work from home." And it's going 100% work from home." And it's like, how long did that last? It didn't like, how long did that last? It didn't like, how long did that last? It didn't last very long. Everybody's like, uh get last very long. Everybody's like, uh get last very long. Everybody's like, uh get back to work. Get Get back into the back to work. Get Get back into the back to work. Get Get back into the office or you're fired. office or you're fired. office or you're fired. >> Everybody can go started with Elon Musk. >> Everybody can go started with Elon Musk. >> Everybody can go started with Elon Musk. Um everybody can go listen to the Um everybody can go listen to the Um everybody can go listen to the episode I did on Gospel Bound with David episode I did on Gospel Bound with David episode I did on Gospel Bound with David Bonson where we talk about this, where Bonson where we talk about this, where Bonson where we talk about this, where he's anticipated this. So, Bonson's view he's anticipated this. So, Bonson's view he's anticipated this. So, Bonson's view on this when it came to work, this idea on this when it came to work, this idea on this when it came to work, this idea that we'd be able to just all work from that we'd be able to just all work from that we'd be able to just all work from home was not going to happen. The home was not going to happen. The home was not going to happen. The productivity levels significantly productivity levels significantly productivity levels significantly declined. But in the same way, declined. But in the same way, declined. But in the same way, those prophets saying, "Hey, it's going those prophets saying, "Hey, it's going those prophets saying, "Hey, it's going to be great. All churches going to be to be great. All churches going to be to be great. All churches going to be moving online."

moving online." moving online." Thankfully, turned out to be wrong Thankfully, turned out to be wrong Thankfully, turned out to be wrong because it it's if anything, it's because it it's if anything, it's because it it's if anything, it's reinforced the physicality, the embodied reinforced the physicality, the embodied reinforced the physicality, the embodied nature of the Christian life. And that nature of the Christian life. And that nature of the Christian life. And that is a an irreducibly theological reality. is a an irreducibly theological reality. is a an irreducibly theological reality. Um and COVID-19 helped remind us, for Um and COVID-19 helped remind us, for Um and COVID-19 helped remind us, for better or worse, i.e. the spread of this better or worse, i.e. the spread of this better or worse, i.e. the spread of this disease, the the the disease, the the the disease, the the the um the weakness of our bodies to be able um the weakness of our bodies to be able um the weakness of our bodies to be able to fight it off, but also the the to fight it off, but also the the to fight it off, but also the the strength or and also the significance, I strength or and also the significance, I strength or and also the significance, I guess, of of what we lose when we don't guess, of of what we lose when we don't guess, of of what we lose when we don't see other people physically, and see other people physically, and see other people physically, and especially when we don't gather together especially when we don't gather together especially when we don't gather together in in worship. So, no doubt, massive in in worship. So, no doubt, massive in in worship. So, no doubt, massive story, COVID-19. story, COVID-19. story, COVID-19. >> Yeah, not a a lesson that anybody who >> Yeah, not a a lesson that anybody who >> Yeah, not a a lesson that anybody who lived through that is going to probably lived through that is going to probably lived through that is going to probably ever forget of the ever forget of the ever forget of the >> Or want to relive. >> Or want to relive. >> Or want to relive. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, or ever want to relive. or ever want to relive. or ever want to relive. >> Once is enough. >> So, bookending COVID were Trump's >> So, bookending COVID were Trump's presidency. Sometimes it feels like he presidency. Sometimes it feels like he presidency. Sometimes it feels like he has been president forever, but really has been president forever, but really has been president forever, but really not. Um the one that ran from 2016 to not. Um the one that ran from 2016 to not. Um the one that ran from 2016 to 2020, and then this one that we're in 2020, and then this one that we're in 2020, and then this one that we're in currently, which will run from 2024 to currently, which will run from 2024 to currently, which will run from 2024 to 2028. So, why did you put Trump at 2028. So, why did you put Trump at 2028. So, why did you put Trump at number four?

number four? number four? >> Well, again, I mean, look at these >> Well, again, I mean, look at these >> Well, again, I mean, look at these stories just keep getting uh they're stories just keep getting uh they're stories just keep getting uh they're going to continue to get bigger and going to continue to get bigger and going to continue to get bigger and bigger, and so um you know, for at bigger, and so um you know, for at bigger, and so um you know, for at 30,000 ft, you're going to continue to 30,000 ft, you're going to continue to 30,000 ft, you're going to continue to kind of elevate to see this the kind of elevate to see this the kind of elevate to see this the significance, because how many different significance, because how many different significance, because how many different issues, theologically and otherwise, can issues, theologically and otherwise, can issues, theologically and otherwise, can you fold under you fold under you fold under uh I guess, like you said, Sarah, it's uh I guess, like you said, Sarah, it's uh I guess, like you said, Sarah, it's some of it's just the the Trump uh some of it's just the the Trump uh some of it's just the the Trump uh uh President Trump's direct influence. uh President Trump's direct influence. uh President Trump's direct influence. Some of it's things that have happened Some of it's things that have happened Some of it's things that have happened around him. Some of it's just the fact around him. Some of it's just the fact around him. Some of it's just the fact that not only because he's been that not only because he's been that not only because he's been president for so long, but in the public president for so long, but in the public president for so long, but in the public eye for so long, this is no doubt going eye for so long, this is no doubt going eye for so long, this is no doubt going to be considered the Trump era to be considered the Trump era to be considered the Trump era by historians. I don't think that's any by historians. I don't think that's any by historians. I don't think that's any dispute at all. But also just with the dispute at all. But also just with the dispute at all. But also just with the way he dominates media, the way he way he dominates media, the way he way he dominates media, the way he dominates thoughts, the way he dominates dominates thoughts, the way he dominates dominates thoughts, the way he dominates action. And that's not just that's not action. And that's not just that's not action. And that's not just that's not just the United States, that's around just the United States, that's around just the United States, that's around the world. The way everybody needs to the world. The way everybody needs to the world. The way everybody needs to react to him and the initiatives or react to him and the initiatives or react to him and the initiatives or things or tweets or or whatever. So, things or tweets or or whatever. So, things or tweets or or whatever. So, that's part of why it feels like it's that's part of why it feels like it's that's part of why it feels like it's been forever. And for people who are, been forever. And for people who are, been forever. And for people who are, you know, younger than us, this is the you know, younger than us, this is the you know, younger than us, this is the only president that they've known or only president that they've known or only president that they've known or remembered or certainly the only remembered or certainly the only remembered or certainly the only president they voted for. There aren't president they voted for. There aren't president they voted for. There aren't that many in history that have been in that many in history that have been in that many in history that have been in three different elections uh voted for three different elections uh voted for three different elections uh voted for in their um in their um in their um So, but I I let's just name a few of the So, but I I let's just name a few of the So, but I I let's just name a few of the things that have that have flowed out of things that have that have flowed out of things that have that have flowed out of this.

this. this. I think the most significant are related I think the most significant are related I think the most significant are related to the Supreme Court. Um and not every to the Supreme Court. Um and not every to the Supreme Court. Um and not every president gets to appoint a lot of president gets to appoint a lot of president gets to appoint a lot of Supreme Court justices, but um you can Supreme Court justices, but um you can Supreme Court justices, but um you can go back to those really contentious uh go back to those really contentious uh go back to those really contentious uh Kavanaugh hearings. Um those were Kavanaugh hearings. Um those were Kavanaugh hearings. Um those were uniquely shaped by by President Trump, uniquely shaped by by President Trump, uniquely shaped by by President Trump, his resolve to not give in to um to his resolve to not give in to um to his resolve to not give in to um to removing him uh to the critics and and removing him uh to the critics and and removing him uh to the critics and and those were alleging uh different those were alleging uh different those were alleging uh different misdeeds against him. That was replacing misdeeds against him. That was replacing misdeeds against him. That was replacing Anthony Kennedy. Anthony Kennedy. Anthony Kennedy. Anybody who's been listening to my Anybody who's been listening to my Anybody who's been listening to my teaching for any period of time knows teaching for any period of time knows teaching for any period of time knows the significance of Kennedy as sort of the significance of Kennedy as sort of the significance of Kennedy as sort of America's pop philosopher. Um you know, America's pop philosopher. Um you know, America's pop philosopher. Um you know, his descriptions of the sweet mystery of his descriptions of the sweet mystery of his descriptions of the sweet mystery of life and things like that. So, in life and things like that. So, in life and things like that. So, in theological and philosophical terms, theological and philosophical terms, theological and philosophical terms, that was a massive replacement. Then of that was a massive replacement. Then of that was a massive replacement. Then of course Amy Coney Barrett in in 2020 uh course Amy Coney Barrett in in 2020 uh course Amy Coney Barrett in in 2020 uh right toward right toward the end. Um right toward right toward the end. Um right toward right toward the end. Um very significant with long-standing very significant with long-standing very significant with long-standing Supreme Court justice. Of course, many Supreme Court justice. Of course, many Supreme Court justice. Of course, many cases long outlive the president who cases long outlive the president who cases long outlive the president who appointed them or the Senate who appointed them or the Senate who appointed them or the Senate who confirmed them. So, those have huge confirmed them. So, those have huge confirmed them. So, those have huge implications and I don't think this is implications and I don't think this is implications and I don't think this is not specific to Trump, not specific to Trump, not specific to Trump, but it's continued. Um I just need I but it's continued. Um I just need I but it's continued. Um I just need I just need to point this out. Sometimes I just need to point this out. Sometimes I just need to point this out. Sometimes I feel as though my job is just to be a feel as though my job is just to be a feel as though my job is just to be a witness to to history and just as a witness to to history and just as a witness to to history and just as a reminder of what happened.

reminder of what happened. reminder of what happened. I met in January 2017 with a number of I met in January 2017 with a number of I met in January 2017 with a number of Christian college leaders at their Christian college leaders at their Christian college leaders at their invitation um in Atlanta. invitation um in Atlanta. invitation um in Atlanta. And they of course, like many of us, had And they of course, like many of us, had And they of course, like many of us, had expected uh Trump to lose to Hillary expected uh Trump to lose to Hillary expected uh Trump to lose to Hillary Clinton. The plan there, and Sarah, Clinton. The plan there, and Sarah, Clinton. The plan there, and Sarah, you've done the best reporting on this. you've done the best reporting on this. you've done the best reporting on this. Um I mean, you I want I I know what you Um I mean, you I want I I know what you Um I mean, you I want I I know what you remember from this time, but basically, remember from this time, but basically, remember from this time, but basically, the idea was the idea was the idea was Christian colleges were going to get Christian colleges were going to get Christian colleges were going to get shut down. I think you're the one, shut down. I think you're the one, shut down. I think you're the one, Sarah, who reported not just the removal Sarah, who reported not just the removal Sarah, who reported not just the removal of funding, but the literal of funding, but the literal of funding, but the literal basically, like illegality of what was basically, like illegality of what was basically, like illegality of what was perceived to be discrimination. What do perceived to be discrimination. What do perceived to be discrimination. What do you remember from that period, Sarah? you remember from that period, Sarah? you remember from that period, Sarah? >> Yeah, I what I remember is calling up I >> Yeah, I what I remember is calling up I >> Yeah, I what I remember is calling up I think Hillsdale and Grove City are the think Hillsdale and Grove City are the think Hillsdale and Grove City are the colleges that don't take funding and colleges that don't take funding and colleges that don't take funding and basically, like let's write a how-to of basically, like let's write a how-to of basically, like let's write a how-to of what do you do when the government comes what do you do when the government comes what do you do when the government comes after you and you have to you don't get after you and you have to you don't get after you and you have to you don't get any funding at all, Pell Grants or any any funding at all, Pell Grants or any any funding at all, Pell Grants or any type of funding and you're just going to type of funding and you're just going to type of funding and you're just going to need to like privately fund your own need to like privately fund your own need to like privately fund your own education. education. education. Um Um Um >> If the government allows you to continue >> If the government allows you to continue >> If the government allows you to continue to exist to exist to exist when you're functioning against what of when you're functioning against what of when you're functioning against what of how the law could be interpreted as how the law could be interpreted as how the law could be interpreted as being discriminatory.

being discriminatory. being discriminatory. >> Yeah, and well, yeah, >> Yeah, and well, yeah, >> Yeah, and well, yeah, beyond accreditation, will they take beyond accreditation, will they take beyond accreditation, will they take your teachers? Right? The Gordon and your teachers? Right? The Gordon and your teachers? Right? The Gordon and uh their teachers were unable to to uh their teachers were unable to to uh their teachers were unable to to serve as student teachers in the public serve as student teachers in the public serve as student teachers in the public schools around there. Yeah, all kinds of schools around there. Yeah, all kinds of schools around there. Yeah, all kinds of stuff. stuff. stuff. >> So, one of the biggest stories by far >> So, one of the biggest stories by far >> So, one of the biggest stories by far has been has been has been the the the much stronger and strengthened religious much stronger and strengthened religious much stronger and strengthened religious liberty protections enacted primarily by liberty protections enacted primarily by liberty protections enacted primarily by the Supreme Court or or kind of or the Supreme Court or or kind of or the Supreme Court or or kind of or decided by the Supreme Court in this decided by the Supreme Court in this decided by the Supreme Court in this last decade. last decade. last decade. Um that is a that's a huge legacy in the Um that is a that's a huge legacy in the Um that is a that's a huge legacy in the last 25 years and a very positive last 25 years and a very positive last 25 years and a very positive development one that has been assisted development one that has been assisted development one that has been assisted quite a bit by President Trump because quite a bit by President Trump because quite a bit by President Trump because of the Supreme Court appointees. Again, of the Supreme Court appointees. Again, of the Supreme Court appointees. Again, things were trending somewhat in that things were trending somewhat in that things were trending somewhat in that way without him, but definitely that's way without him, but definitely that's way without him, but definitely that's been that's been confirmed uh with him. been that's been confirmed uh with him. been that's been confirmed uh with him. Um of course, anytime you're going to Um of course, anytime you're going to Um of course, anytime you're going to talk about the Supreme Court, you're talk about the Supreme Court, you're talk about the Supreme Court, you're going to look at one of the major going to look at one of the major going to look at one of the major stories embedded in here and that of stories embedded in here and that of stories embedded in here and that of course is the Dobbs decision, Roe v. course is the Dobbs decision, Roe v. course is the Dobbs decision, Roe v. Wade being overturned in 2022. Wade being overturned in 2022. Wade being overturned in 2022. But as a theme that we keep coming back But as a theme that we keep coming back But as a theme that we keep coming back to, to, to, you have both the exuberance of Roe you have both the exuberance of Roe you have both the exuberance of Roe being overturned, something that a lot being overturned, something that a lot being overturned, something that a lot of us never thought could even be of us never thought could even be of us never thought could even be possible, possible, possible, but then also the shift in 2024 of but then also the shift in 2024 of but then also the shift in 2024 of President Trump and with much of the President Trump and with much of the President Trump and with much of the Republican Party in his wake toward a Republican Party in his wake toward a Republican Party in his wake toward a pro-choice position. And then as we've pro-choice position. And then as we've pro-choice position. And then as we've been reporting as Sarah you've been been reporting as Sarah you've been been reporting as Sarah you've been reporting lately, reporting lately, reporting lately, I can safely say that there has been I can safely say that there has been I can safely say that there has been never been less interest in the pro-life never been less interest in the pro-life never been less interest in the pro-life cause in the Evangelical Church in the cause in the Evangelical Church in the cause in the Evangelical Church in the 25 years that I've been I've been doing

25 years that I've been I've been doing 25 years that I've been I've been doing this. this. this. We are at a low ebb and as Sarah you We are at a low ebb and as Sarah you We are at a low ebb and as Sarah you just reported recently for the first just reported recently for the first just reported recently for the first time time time in how long? I mean, when was the last in how long? I mean, when was the last in how long? I mean, when was the last time abortions were going up? time abortions were going up? time abortions were going up? >> Yeah, I mean they dropped I think they >> Yeah, I mean they dropped I think they >> Yeah, I mean they dropped I think they they hit the lowest point in 2017 and they hit the lowest point in 2017 and they hit the lowest point in 2017 and they started to creep up since then, but they started to creep up since then, but they started to creep up since then, but it's that's happening globally. it's that's happening globally. it's that's happening globally. >> Globally, so so yeah, it's it's not just >> Globally, so so yeah, it's it's not just >> Globally, so so yeah, it's it's not just a a Trump story and not just the United a a Trump story and not just the United a a Trump story and not just the United States story, but States story, but States story, but that's been a significant development in that's been a significant development in that's been a significant development in in here as well. in here as well. in here as well. Of of course the Of of course the Of of course the the centering of immigration as the the centering of immigration as the the centering of immigration as the number one topic for Republican voters number one topic for Republican voters number one topic for Republican voters and when you're talking about Republican and when you're talking about Republican and when you're talking about Republican voters, the the majority of those are voters, the the majority of those are voters, the the majority of those are evangelicals. So immigration becoming evangelicals. So immigration becoming evangelicals. So immigration becoming probably I would argue the most probably I would argue the most probably I would argue the most contentious social, cultural, contentious social, cultural, contentious social, cultural, theological issue that's alive today theological issue that's alive today theological issue that's alive today inside the Evangelical Church and inside the Evangelical Church and inside the Evangelical Church and perhaps even in our in our broader perhaps even in our in our broader perhaps even in our in our broader culture. culture. culture. That's very much the case of of how That's very much the case of of how That's very much the case of of how President Trump has shifted the President Trump has shifted the President Trump has shifted the Republican Republican Republican party platform and policies there.

party platform and policies there. party platform and policies there. Not to mention all sorts of questions Not to mention all sorts of questions Not to mention all sorts of questions about enforcement and whatnot, but about enforcement and whatnot, but about enforcement and whatnot, but that's been a a huge shift in there. that's been a a huge shift in there. that's been a a huge shift in there. We've just been able to see when it We've just been able to see when it We've just been able to see when it comes to theological discourse, church comes to theological discourse, church comes to theological discourse, church unity, unity, unity, trust in institutions and things like trust in institutions and things like trust in institutions and things like that. You've seen with President Trump a that. You've seen with President Trump a that. You've seen with President Trump a significant rise of populism that's significant rise of populism that's significant rise of populism that's pushed out many urban and highly pushed out many urban and highly pushed out many urban and highly educated evangelicals not only from from educated evangelicals not only from from educated evangelicals not only from from church leadership or church leadership or church leadership or but also just within the Republican but also just within the Republican but also just within the Republican Party in general. Party in general. Party in general. um and so what you've seen though at the um and so what you've seen though at the um and so what you've seen though at the same time is more unity across the races same time is more unity across the races same time is more unity across the races and some of this has really been changed and some of this has really been changed and some of this has really been changed by the recent uh developments on by the recent uh developments on by the recent uh developments on immigration, but more unity across the immigration, but more unity across the immigration, but more unity across the races races races um among evangelicals when it comes to um among evangelicals when it comes to um among evangelicals when it comes to politics especially on the lower end of politics especially on the lower end of politics especially on the lower end of the education and economic spectrum. And the education and economic spectrum. And the education and economic spectrum. And that's certainly a major change from the that's certainly a major change from the that's certainly a major change from the earlier Bush administrations, earlier Bush administrations, earlier Bush administrations, uh change from from Romney, from uh change from from Romney, from uh change from from Romney, from McCain's coalition and things like that. McCain's coalition and things like that. McCain's coalition and things like that. So that's that's been a a big So that's that's been a a big So that's that's been a a big development on in other different ways development on in other different ways development on in other different ways inside the church, but I just want to inside the church, but I just want to inside the church, but I just want to I just mention two meta trends that that I just mention two meta trends that that I just mention two meta trends that that are definitely not resolved here before are definitely not resolved here before are definitely not resolved here before we move on and and get to our top three.

we move on and and get to our top three. we move on and and get to our top three. Um Um Um what we see in general continue under what we see in general continue under what we see in general continue under President Trump is a shift away from President Trump is a shift away from President Trump is a shift away from a a a a view of liberty as something a a a a view of liberty as something a a a a view of liberty as something that frees us to do good, but a view of that frees us to do good, but a view of that frees us to do good, but a view of liberty that frees us to do whatever we liberty that frees us to do whatever we liberty that frees us to do whatever we want. want. want. I'm not saying that's unique to I'm not saying that's unique to I'm not saying that's unique to President Trump. I'm not saying that's President Trump. I'm not saying that's President Trump. I'm not saying that's unique to the Republican Party. That's unique to the Republican Party. That's unique to the Republican Party. That's just kind of the American ethos, just kind of the American ethos, just kind of the American ethos, but I think that that has continued to but I think that that has continued to but I think that that has continued to consolidate as the dominant view consolidate as the dominant view consolidate as the dominant view of what we of of of freedom, of liberty, of what we of of of freedom, of liberty, of what we of of of freedom, of liberty, and of what we're we're striving toward and of what we're we're striving toward and of what we're we're striving toward as a society is the freedom to be able as a society is the freedom to be able as a society is the freedom to be able to tell everybody else to tell everybody else to tell everybody else don't tell me what to do. don't tell me what to do. don't tell me what to do. And you can see how this overlaps with And you can see how this overlaps with And you can see how this overlaps with COVID, right? So significant development COVID, right? So significant development COVID, right? So significant development there as well. And then the last thing there as well. And then the last thing there as well. And then the last thing here and I don't know Mike if you want here and I don't know Mike if you want here and I don't know Mike if you want to add anything here because we debate to add anything here because we debate to add anything here because we debate this among um those at the Keller this among um those at the Keller this among um those at the Keller Center, but um with the rise of the much Center, but um with the rise of the much Center, but um with the rise of the much more assertive executive branch and I more assertive executive branch and I more assertive executive branch and I don't want to pretend as though that don't want to pretend as though that don't want to pretend as though that only happened under President Trump.

only happened under President Trump. only happened under President Trump. That we've been moving that way. I did a That we've been moving that way. I did a That we've been moving that way. I did a review for a Books & Culture years ago review for a Books & Culture years ago review for a Books & Culture years ago about the entire 20th century was moving about the entire 20th century was moving about the entire 20th century was moving toward a stronger executive and toward a stronger executive and toward a stronger executive and President Obama did that uh no doubt President Obama did that uh no doubt President Obama did that uh no doubt Very much strongly did that. And then Very much strongly did that. And then Very much strongly did that. And then and then President Bush did earlier as and then President Bush did earlier as and then President Bush did earlier as well when it relates to things like well when it relates to things like well when it relates to things like national security and surveillance and national security and surveillance and national security and surveillance and and war powers and whatnot. But it seems and war powers and whatnot. But it seems and war powers and whatnot. But it seems as though this more assertive executive as though this more assertive executive as though this more assertive executive branch has bolstered some arguments branch has bolstered some arguments branch has bolstered some arguments about post-liberalism, about post-liberalism, about post-liberalism, including, and this is another major including, and this is another major including, and this is another major theological story that very much is a theological story that very much is a theological story that very much is a subset of the Trump era, the rise of subset of the Trump era, the rise of subset of the Trump era, the rise of Christian nationalism. And the pursuit Christian nationalism. And the pursuit Christian nationalism. And the pursuit of a so-called Christian prince or the of a so-called Christian prince or the of a so-called Christian prince or the the effort to impose doctrinal decrees the effort to impose doctrinal decrees the effort to impose doctrinal decrees from the top down. from the top down. from the top down. Um in a way across people or in even Old Um in a way across people or in even Old Um in a way across people or in even Old Testament law across whether or not you Testament law across whether or not you Testament law across whether or not you subscribe to those views and outside of subscribe to those views and outside of subscribe to those views and outside of the church. And so even right now in the the church. And so even right now in the the church. And so even right now in the PCA there's a major theological debate PCA there's a major theological debate PCA there's a major theological debate about the relationship between the about the relationship between the about the relationship between the church and the state. So, huge church and the state. So, huge church and the state. So, huge theological implications. My goodness, theological implications. My goodness, theological implications. My goodness, we could do whole episodes just about we could do whole episodes just about we could do whole episodes just about this part. But Mike, anything to clean this part. But Mike, anything to clean this part. But Mike, anything to clean up that I missed on that topic?

up that I missed on that topic? up that I missed on that topic? >> No, I don't think I have anything to add >> No, I don't think I have anything to add >> No, I don't think I have anything to add here. I think that was pretty well here. I think that was pretty well here. I think that was pretty well comprehensive. comprehensive. comprehensive. >> You're doing great, Collin. Yeah. >> You're doing great, Collin. Yeah. >> You're doing great, Collin. Yeah. >> just need to gather my breath. >> just need to gather my breath. >> just need to gather my breath. >> Yeah, you're doing it. That's good. >> Yeah, you're doing it. That's good. >> Yeah, you're doing it. That's good. Speaking of top-down, let's talk about Speaking of top-down, let's talk about Speaking of top-down, let's talk about number three, Obergefell. number three, Obergefell. number three, Obergefell. >> Oh, man. I mean, let me just pause here, >> Oh, man. I mean, let me just pause here, >> Oh, man. I mean, let me just pause here, Sarah, and ask what Help take us back to Sarah, and ask what Help take us back to Sarah, and ask what Help take us back to the mindset the mindset the mindset of of of How would we describe this is the How would we describe this is the How would we describe this is the largest largest largest Mike, you mentioned the the great Mike, you mentioned the the great Mike, you mentioned the the great de-churching is the largest and most de-churching is the largest and most de-churching is the largest and most dramatic change in in the church in dramatic change in in the church in dramatic change in in the church in church attendance and affiliation church attendance and affiliation church attendance and affiliation in American history. in American history. in American history. But the largest and fastest moral But the largest and fastest moral But the largest and fastest moral transformation in American history is transformation in American history is transformation in American history is the shift of acceptance of homosexuality the shift of acceptance of homosexuality the shift of acceptance of homosexuality and of gay marriage in particular. and of gay marriage in particular. and of gay marriage in particular. We're old enough, Sarah, to remember how We're old enough, Sarah, to remember how We're old enough, Sarah, to remember how this has changed. Help set the stage for this has changed. Help set the stage for this has changed. Help set the stage for how that how that how that how what that feels like, that change. how what that feels like, that change. how what that feels like, that change. >> Yeah, what's interesting about it is >> Yeah, what's interesting about it is >> Yeah, what's interesting about it is that you just don't know what's the the that you just don't know what's the the that you just don't know what's the the decision that's going to change decision that's going to change decision that's going to change everything and it's so far-reaching. I everything and it's so far-reaching. I everything and it's so far-reaching. I mean, even thinking in terms of uh the mean, even thinking in terms of uh the mean, even thinking in terms of uh the the uh skyrocketing number of fatherless the uh skyrocketing number of fatherless the uh skyrocketing number of fatherless children, right? So, like not only uh children, right? So, like not only uh children, right? So, like not only uh taking apart marriage of a man and woman taking apart marriage of a man and woman taking apart marriage of a man and woman so that you could marry someone of your so that you could marry someone of your so that you could marry someone of your same sex, but so that you didn't have to same sex, but so that you didn't have to same sex, but so that you didn't have to marry anybody, right? There's just like marry anybody, right? There's just like marry anybody, right? There's just like a lessening of any kind of of social a lessening of any kind of of social a lessening of any kind of of social pressure around anything to do with pressure around anything to do with pressure around anything to do with sexuality and by extension the family, sexuality and by extension the family, sexuality and by extension the family, right? Like, raise your kids however you right? Like, raise your kids however you right? Like, raise your kids however you want with whoever you want or don't or,

want with whoever you want or don't or, want with whoever you want or don't or, you know, like there there's just you know, like there there's just you know, like there there's just anything that touches sexuality from anything that touches sexuality from anything that touches sexuality from abortion to then like I can remember abortion to then like I can remember abortion to then like I can remember whenever there was people who'd say, whenever there was people who'd say, whenever there was people who'd say, "What about transgenderism?" And "What about transgenderism?" And "What about transgenderism?" And everyone else laughed and like, "What everyone else laughed and like, "What everyone else laughed and like, "What are you talking about? Clearly, that's are you talking about? Clearly, that's are you talking about? Clearly, that's crazy." And then 2 years later it was crazy." And then 2 years later it was crazy." And then 2 years later it was like totally plausible. Um and so, how like totally plausible. Um and so, how like totally plausible. Um and so, how quickly that shifted and how everything quickly that shifted and how everything quickly that shifted and how everything in that orbit in that orbit in that orbit just felt like it fell off a cliff. just felt like it fell off a cliff. just felt like it fell off a cliff. >> Can there be a Can it be a coincidence >> Can there be a Can it be a coincidence >> Can there be a Can it be a coincidence that ever since gay marriage was not that ever since gay marriage was not that ever since gay marriage was not just legalized, but then mandated across just legalized, but then mandated across just legalized, but then mandated across the country in 2015, a decision written the country in 2015, a decision written the country in 2015, a decision written again by the aforementioned again by the aforementioned again by the aforementioned Anthony Anthony Kennedy, Anthony Anthony Kennedy, Anthony Anthony Kennedy, um um um can there is there any coincidence that can there is there any coincidence that can there is there any coincidence that we've been spending the entire time we've been spending the entire time we've been spending the entire time since then talking about the decline of since then talking about the decline of since then talking about the decline of marriage, marriage, marriage, the decline of interest in marriage, the the decline of interest in marriage, the the decline of interest in marriage, the decline of interest in raising children? decline of interest in raising children? decline of interest in raising children? This was not a decision that This was not a decision that This was not a decision that strengthened the institution of strengthened the institution of strengthened the institution of marriage. It is a decision that marriage. It is a decision that marriage. It is a decision that not only redefined it, but then also not only redefined it, but then also not only redefined it, but then also relativized it as not important.

relativized it as not important. relativized it as not important. That's been the implication of it. Not a That's been the implication of it. Not a That's been the implication of it. Not a rush toward an excitement, exuberance rush toward an excitement, exuberance rush toward an excitement, exuberance about the openness of it, but a about the openness of it, but a about the openness of it, but a recognition that recognition that recognition that there's nothing special here um to be there's nothing special here um to be there's nothing special here um to be pursuing and also a decentering of it as pursuing and also a decentering of it as pursuing and also a decentering of it as an organizing social um an organizing social um an organizing social um uh just stage of life that is expected uh just stage of life that is expected uh just stage of life that is expected for the vast majority. Now, it's sort of for the vast majority. Now, it's sort of for the vast majority. Now, it's sort of an option if you feel like it for some. an option if you feel like it for some. an option if you feel like it for some. >> Yes. And I think we can also trace along >> Yes. And I think we can also trace along >> Yes. And I think we can also trace along that same time period, um, the decline that same time period, um, the decline that same time period, um, the decline of the ability to tell stories in of the ability to tell stories in of the ability to tell stories in Hollywood because without that Hollywood because without that Hollywood because without that organizing principle, organizing principle, organizing principle, um, which had been underneath so many um, which had been underneath so many um, which had been underneath so many stories for so long, um, the the stories for so long, um, the the stories for so long, um, the the storytelling got lost. storytelling got lost. storytelling got lost. >> Rom-coms have almost disappeared. >> Rom-coms have almost disappeared. >> Rom-coms have almost disappeared. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> That's a major change that you would see >> That's a major change that you would see >> That's a major change that you would see if you dropped from the 1990s, an era of if you dropped from the 1990s, an era of if you dropped from the 1990s, an era of really significant rom-coms into the really significant rom-coms into the really significant rom-coms into the 21st century. Almost disappeared. It's 21st century. Almost disappeared. It's 21st century. Almost disappeared. It's just not It would not have the same res- just not It would not have the same res- just not It would not have the same res- uh, resonance. Um, though I do have to uh, resonance. Um, though I do have to uh, resonance. Um, though I do have to make an exception there for basically make an exception there for basically make an exception there for basically every Hallmark movie. That's an actual every Hallmark movie. That's an actual every Hallmark movie. That's an actual That's 25 years.

That's 25 years. That's 25 years. >> Die Hard? Like the whole It's an action >> Die Hard? Like the whole It's an action >> Die Hard? Like the whole It's an action movie, but the whole thing is organized movie, but the whole thing is organized movie, but the whole thing is organized around a relationship with his wife, around a relationship with his wife, around a relationship with his wife, right? So, it I mean, there's a there's right? So, it I mean, there's a there's right? So, it I mean, there's a there's a lot of action movies that have a a lot of action movies that have a a lot of action movies that have a uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, uh, >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> some sort of male-female relationship >> some sort of male-female relationship >> some sort of male-female relationship underneath it, yeah. underneath it, yeah. underneath it, yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, they don't they don't go >> Yeah. Yeah, they don't they don't go >> Yeah. Yeah, they don't they don't go away entirely, uh, away entirely, uh, away entirely, uh, but they do become decentered as as a but they do become decentered as as a but they do become decentered as as a kind of as kind of norm. But, I just kind of as kind of norm. But, I just kind of as kind of norm. But, I just want to point point this out. This is want to point point this out. This is want to point point this out. This is a significant, um, a dimension of the a significant, um, a dimension of the a significant, um, a dimension of the Gospel Coalition's history. Gospel Coalition's history. Gospel Coalition's history. And, you know, first meeting of the And, you know, first meeting of the And, you know, first meeting of the Gospel Coalition in 2005, Gospel Coalition in 2005, Gospel Coalition in 2005, Don Carson, Tim Keller convene these Don Carson, Tim Keller convene these Don Carson, Tim Keller convene these church leaders from around North church leaders from around North church leaders from around North America. They send out these dozens of America. They send out these dozens of America. They send out these dozens of invitations. Everybody says yes. They invitations. Everybody says yes. They invitations. Everybody says yes. They show up. show up. show up. And in 2005, And in 2005, And in 2005, May 2005, May 2005, May 2005, this is right after President Bush has this is right after President Bush has this is right after President Bush has been reelected. He's heading into his been reelected. He's heading into his been reelected. He's heading into his second year. second year. second year. Uh, the values voters, so-called values Uh, the values voters, so-called values Uh, the values voters, so-called values voters, have created a permanent voters, have created a permanent voters, have created a permanent Republican coalition, um, of suburban Republican coalition, um, of suburban Republican coalition, um, of suburban and exurbanites, um, according to uh, and exurbanites, um, according to uh, and exurbanites, um, according to uh, Karl Rove. Anytime a political Karl Rove. Anytime a political Karl Rove. Anytime a political strategist says this, you just know he strategist says this, you just know he strategist says this, you just know he or she is wrong. Um, or she is wrong. Um, or she is wrong. Um, he just You don't like the politics, he just You don't like the politics, he just You don't like the politics, just wait a while because let's look at just wait a while because let's look at just wait a while because let's look at the last 25 years, how many things have the last 25 years, how many things have the last 25 years, how many things have how many things have changed. But, um, how many things have changed. But, um, how many things have changed. But, um, so this is the values voters election.

so this is the values voters election. so this is the values voters election. Evangelicals are are ascendant. Evangelicals are are ascendant. Evangelicals are are ascendant. And And And in May of 2005, in May of 2005, in May of 2005, Don Carson says, Don Carson says, Don Carson says, "Homosexuality will be to the 21st "Homosexuality will be to the 21st "Homosexuality will be to the 21st century century century as indulgences were to the 16th century. as indulgences were to the 16th century. as indulgences were to the 16th century. They will not be the issue that divides They will not be the issue that divides They will not be the issue that divides the church, but the presenting issue the church, but the presenting issue the church, but the presenting issue that divides the church." that divides the church." that divides the church." We're talking top theological stories We're talking top theological stories We're talking top theological stories last 25 years. last 25 years. last 25 years. Every major mainline denomination split Every major mainline denomination split Every major mainline denomination split over this. over this. over this. They all split. They all declined. They They all split. They all declined. They They all split. They all declined. They all split. The last holdout, uh, the all split. The last holdout, uh, the all split. The last holdout, uh, the Methodist Church, um, Methodist Church, um, Methodist Church, um, in terms of the largest denominations, in terms of the largest denominations, in terms of the largest denominations, um, that was because the going back to um, that was because the going back to um, that was because the going back to number 10, that's because the way the number 10, that's because the way the number 10, that's because the way the Methodist Church votes is a global vote. Methodist Church votes is a global vote. Methodist Church votes is a global vote. So, global south, uh, So, global south, uh, So, global south, uh, Asians, but especially Africans, kept Asians, but especially Africans, kept Asians, but especially Africans, kept the United United States conservative on the United United States conservative on the United United States conservative on its historic beliefs on sexuality.

its historic beliefs on sexuality. its historic beliefs on sexuality. But, at the same time, But, at the same time, But, at the same time, there was no possibility of Americans there was no possibility of Americans there was no possibility of Americans being able to wrest control of the being able to wrest control of the being able to wrest control of the declining, to go back to the great declining, to go back to the great declining, to go back to the great de-churching story, of of of de-churching story, of of of de-churching story, of of of institutions in the Methodist Church, institutions in the Methodist Church, institutions in the Methodist Church, the seminaries and denominational the seminaries and denominational the seminaries and denominational agencies and things like that. So, they agencies and things like that. So, they agencies and things like that. So, they were stuck in this stalemate. They were stuck in this stalemate. They were stuck in this stalemate. They finally reached a settlement that finally reached a settlement that finally reached a settlement that produced the global Methodist Church, produced the global Methodist Church, produced the global Methodist Church, which in and of itself is a significant which in and of itself is a significant which in and of itself is a significant development in these last 25 years. But, development in these last 25 years. But, development in these last 25 years. But, Carson could see that at a time when, Carson could see that at a time when, Carson could see that at a time when, and just keep this in mind. I ask my and just keep this in mind. I ask my and just keep this in mind. I ask my students this all the time and they students this all the time and they students this all the time and they don't have a clue. don't have a clue. don't have a clue. Gay marriage would be banned in Gay marriage would be banned in Gay marriage would be banned in California in 2008. California in 2008. California in 2008. Three years later. Banned in California. Three years later. Banned in California. Three years later. Banned in California. Uh, Uh, Uh, the the these the votes were There was a the the these the votes were There was a the the these the votes were There was a sense This is what shifted. There was a sense This is what shifted. There was a sense This is what shifted. There was a sense at the start of this 25-year sense at the start of this 25-year sense at the start of this 25-year period that we evangelicals represented period that we evangelicals represented period that we evangelicals represented a silent majority a silent majority a silent majority who were conservative in their values. who were conservative in their values. who were conservative in their values. Especially on things like homosexuality. Especially on things like homosexuality. Especially on things like homosexuality. That is not remotely the case 25 years That is not remotely the case 25 years That is not remotely the case 25 years later. That's even a delusion that seems later. That's even a delusion that seems later. That's even a delusion that seems like it's practically from black and like it's practically from black and like it's practically from black and white eras.

white eras. white eras. That's how dramatic this transformation That's how dramatic this transformation That's how dramatic this transformation was and almost all of it happened was and almost all of it happened was and almost all of it happened not just gradually over time, but not just gradually over time, but not just gradually over time, but basically in a period between 20 2008 basically in a period between 20 2008 basically in a period between 20 2008 and 2013 leading up then to the 2015 uh and 2013 leading up then to the 2015 uh and 2013 leading up then to the 2015 uh decision. decision. decision. That that that is also very much the That that that is also very much the That that that is also very much the effect of the Obama administration effect of the Obama administration effect of the Obama administration specifically and Obama pushing that in specifically and Obama pushing that in specifically and Obama pushing that in his second term. I also have to point his second term. I also have to point his second term. I also have to point out to people that the out to people that the out to people that the the first incoming president who was the first incoming president who was the first incoming president who was very proudly pro-gay was Donald Trump. very proudly pro-gay was Donald Trump. very proudly pro-gay was Donald Trump. Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both in Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both in Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama both in 2008 were against gay marriage. I mean, 2008 were against gay marriage. I mean, 2008 were against gay marriage. I mean, we all kind of knew that they weren't we all kind of knew that they weren't we all kind of knew that they weren't really, but that was their official really, but that was their official really, but that was their official position cuz they knew that's what the position cuz they knew that's what the position cuz they knew that's what the voters would demand. voters would demand. voters would demand. That is how much things have changed That is how much things have changed That is how much things have changed with just huge huge implications that with just huge huge implications that with just huge huge implications that are easy for us to be able to to take are easy for us to be able to to take are easy for us to be able to to take take for granted. So, um take for granted. So, um take for granted. So, um now now now I do think about the positive though I do think about the positive though I do think about the positive though here here here and this makes me reflect. I don't know and this makes me reflect. I don't know and this makes me reflect. I don't know um if you guys have any thoughts on um if you guys have any thoughts on um if you guys have any thoughts on this, but this, but this, but um um um I think about the ministry that we do at I think about the ministry that we do at I think about the ministry that we do at the Gospel Coalition and at one point it the Gospel Coalition and at one point it the Gospel Coalition and at one point it felt like felt like felt like every day there was some other Christian every day there was some other Christian every day there was some other Christian leader who was leaving like abandoning leader who was leaving like abandoning leader who was leaving like abandoning biblical orthodoxy on sexuality or biblical orthodoxy on sexuality or biblical orthodoxy on sexuality or leaving the church or something like leaving the church or something like leaving the church or something like that. And every time they would, there'd that. And every time they would, there'd that. And every time they would, there'd just be this major news story and it just be this major news story and it just be this major news story and it would feel very disparaging.

would feel very disparaging. would feel very disparaging. And And And boy, that hardly ever happens anymore. I mean, that doesn't doesn't seem to I mean, that doesn't doesn't seem to happen very often. Now, could be a happen very often. Now, could be a happen very often. Now, could be a result of if you had that view, you're result of if you had that view, you're result of if you had that view, you're already out of the church or something already out of the church or something already out of the church or something like that. It could be part of the like that. It could be part of the like that. It could be part of the broader great de-churching dynamic in broader great de-churching dynamic in broader great de-churching dynamic in there, but there, but there, but that just doesn't So, I don't know, that just doesn't So, I don't know, that just doesn't So, I don't know, Sarah, you're always looking for the Sarah, you're always looking for the Sarah, you're always looking for the positive side of things, and I would say positive side of things, and I would say positive side of things, and I would say the fact that there has been no the fact that there has been no the fact that there has been no widespread evangelical abandonment widespread evangelical abandonment widespread evangelical abandonment of of of of institutional views on sexuality, of institutional views on sexuality, of institutional views on sexuality, that is not something we should take for that is not something we should take for that is not something we should take for granted. It didn't necessarily look that granted. It didn't necessarily look that granted. It didn't necessarily look that way. way. way. >> And I don't even even having a >> And I don't even even having a >> And I don't even even having a presenting issue like homosexuality or presenting issue like homosexuality or presenting issue like homosexuality or indulgences indulgences indulgences isn't necessarily a bad thing, right? To isn't necessarily a bad thing, right? To isn't necessarily a bad thing, right? To to to to to judge or to you know, be able to tell to judge or to you know, be able to tell to judge or to you know, be able to tell the fruit from something. the fruit from something. the fruit from something. >> the underlying issues. To bring the >> the underlying issues. To bring the >> the underlying issues. To bring the problems to a head. problems to a head. problems to a head. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um absolutely. >> Um absolutely. >> Um absolutely. >> To bring two of our top 10 stories >> To bring two of our top 10 stories >> To bring two of our top 10 stories together together together and not to just, you know, end this and not to just, you know, end this and not to just, you know, end this particular one on a sad note, but it is particular one on a sad note, but it is particular one on a sad note, but it is a sad note for me.

a sad note for me. a sad note for me. And it's the way that the racial And it's the way that the racial And it's the way that the racial conversation in America and the sexual conversation in America and the sexual conversation in America and the sexual conversation in America, I think got conversation in America, I think got conversation in America, I think got unhelpfully bundled. unhelpfully bundled. unhelpfully bundled. And the bundling of those two And the bundling of those two And the bundling of those two conversations, conversations, conversations, I think in many ways um I think in many ways um I think in many ways um it really hurt the ability it really hurt the ability it really hurt the ability for evangelicals to process both for evangelicals to process both for evangelicals to process both situations situations situations from a helpful standpoint and left from a helpful standpoint and left from a helpful standpoint and left people, I think in a way where people, I think in a way where people, I think in a way where a conversation a conversation a conversation that was probably I think there was that was probably I think there was that was probably I think there was conversations that were conversations that were conversations that were that were going in a helpful direction, that were going in a helpful direction, that were going in a helpful direction, but I think the conversation got cut but I think the conversation got cut but I think the conversation got cut short and it got truncated and and I short and it got truncated and and I short and it got truncated and and I think it a lot of that was because, you think it a lot of that was because, you think it a lot of that was because, you know, I think people in the know, I think people in the know, I think people in the you know, broader progressive society you know, broader progressive society you know, broader progressive society wanted to bundle those two things wanted to bundle those two things wanted to bundle those two things because because because you know, one of the fastest ways to you know, one of the fastest ways to you know, one of the fastest ways to win, you know, win over the country is win, you know, win over the country is win, you know, win over the country is to basically say, "Well, if you don't to basically say, "Well, if you don't to basically say, "Well, if you don't sign on with this, this, and this, then sign on with this, this, and this, then sign on with this, this, and this, then you're racist. And these, you know, and you're racist. And these, you know, and you're racist. And these, you know, and these these are one in the same issue.

these these are one in the same issue. these these are one in the same issue. And I don't see them as as being one in And I don't see them as as being one in And I don't see them as as being one in the same issue. They're not. Um the same issue. They're not. Um the same issue. They're not. Um but I think the bundling of those two but I think the bundling of those two but I think the bundling of those two issues really created a lot of issues really created a lot of issues really created a lot of complexity complexity complexity for um evangelical leaders. And I think for um evangelical leaders. And I think for um evangelical leaders. And I think it cut a conversation that had some it cut a conversation that had some it cut a conversation that had some productivity there to it. And but it it productivity there to it. And but it it productivity there to it. And but it it definitely cut it short. And that that definitely cut it short. And that that definitely cut it short. And that that conversation just crash landed. And I conversation just crash landed. And I conversation just crash landed. And I don't really know if we've recovered don't really know if we've recovered don't really know if we've recovered from that. I'm I'm grateful that from that. I'm I'm grateful that from that. I'm I'm grateful that evangelicals have held the line evangelicals have held the line evangelicals have held the line on, you know, traditional sexual ethics. on, you know, traditional sexual ethics. on, you know, traditional sexual ethics. But I think one of the things that's But I think one of the things that's But I think one of the things that's been a casualty of that has been that been a casualty of that has been that been a casualty of that has been that broader that broader conversation about broader that broader conversation about broader that broader conversation about race. race. race. >> Boy, Mike, that's a really astute point. >> Boy, Mike, that's a really astute point. >> Boy, Mike, that's a really astute point. And that allows us to then go back to And that allows us to then go back to And that allows us to then go back to what we talked about in the previous what we talked about in the previous what we talked about in the previous episode, the Great Awakening. episode, the Great Awakening. episode, the Great Awakening. Because that originally is a racial Because that originally is a racial Because that originally is a racial category, correct? I mean, that category, correct? I mean, that category, correct? I mean, that originates out of African-American uh originates out of African-American uh originates out of African-American uh culture about being awakened to you culture about being awakened to you culture about being awakened to you know, the dynamics of of racial know, the dynamics of of racial know, the dynamics of of racial injustice. Um and sometimes has the injustice. Um and sometimes has the injustice. Um and sometimes has the implications that you mentioned um go implications that you mentioned um go implications that you mentioned um go further down into critical race theory further down into critical race theory further down into critical race theory and whatnot. That's the basic idea. But and whatnot. That's the basic idea. But and whatnot. That's the basic idea. But now when you talk about being woke, now when you talk about being woke, now when you talk about being woke, it could apply to a million different it could apply to a million different it could apply to a million different things, but specifically, it often has a things, but specifically, it often has a things, but specifically, it often has a corollary to sexuality.

corollary to sexuality. corollary to sexuality. And especially things like LGBTQ. And especially things like LGBTQ. And especially things like LGBTQ. Um so that's exactly becomes a label on Um so that's exactly becomes a label on Um so that's exactly becomes a label on on that crosses that uh crosses that um on that crosses that uh crosses that um on that crosses that uh crosses that um that spectrum and makes conversations that spectrum and makes conversations that spectrum and makes conversations really confusing. It makes it difficult really confusing. It makes it difficult really confusing. It makes it difficult for you to obey, I think, what the Bible for you to obey, I think, what the Bible for you to obey, I think, what the Bible teaches us about partiality teaches us about partiality teaches us about partiality along with what the Bible teaches us along with what the Bible teaches us along with what the Bible teaches us about sexuality. about sexuality. about sexuality. Makes it hard because the Makes it hard because the Makes it hard because the cultural crosscurrents are moving cultural crosscurrents are moving cultural crosscurrents are moving against each other. And this is why against each other. And this is why against each other. And this is why um, just looking back at some of the um, just looking back at some of the um, just looking back at some of the resources we've produced during this resources we've produced during this resources we've produced during this time, this is why Rebecca McLaughlin's time, this is why Rebecca McLaughlin's time, this is why Rebecca McLaughlin's book, The Secular Creed, has been so book, The Secular Creed, has been so book, The Secular Creed, has been so helpful and why it's been so popular. helpful and why it's been so popular. helpful and why it's been so popular. It's just been a best-seller for us It's just been a best-seller for us It's just been a best-seller for us because she walks better than anybody because she walks better than anybody because she walks better than anybody else I know, walks through to be able to else I know, walks through to be able to else I know, walks through to be able to delineate between what the Bible teaches delineate between what the Bible teaches delineate between what the Bible teaches on race and what the Bible teaches on on on race and what the Bible teaches on on on race and what the Bible teaches on on sexuality in ways that are certainly not sexuality in ways that are certainly not sexuality in ways that are certainly not handled well by our political parties or handled well by our political parties or handled well by our political parties or our media or other cultural cultural our media or other cultural cultural our media or other cultural cultural leaders. leaders. leaders. >> Yeah. Just that bundling makes me think >> Yeah. Just that bundling makes me think >> Yeah. Just that bundling makes me think there's all kinds of things that got there's all kinds of things that got there's all kinds of things that got bundled, right? So, um, those bundled, right? So, um, those bundled, right? So, um, those conversations where you would before conversations where you would before conversations where you would before have both political parties or people have both political parties or people have both political parties or people from different churches from different churches from different churches a lot closer and at least able to sort a lot closer and at least able to sort a lot closer and at least able to sort through nuances of things. And all of through nuances of things. And all of through nuances of things. And all of this got worse because of our screens.

this got worse because of our screens. this got worse because of our screens. So, number two on your list, Collin, So, number two on your list, Collin, So, number two on your list, Collin, driven by the iPhone, our lives shifted driven by the iPhone, our lives shifted driven by the iPhone, our lives shifted digital. digital. digital. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, uh, Well, uh, Well, uh, Mike knows this because we we work on Mike knows this because we we work on Mike knows this because we we work on these projects all the time, but these projects all the time, but these projects all the time, but when you're trying to assess the when you're trying to assess the when you're trying to assess the significance of a cultural change, and significance of a cultural change, and significance of a cultural change, and let's just take something for example, let's just take something for example, let's just take something for example, uh, let's just take two examples here. uh, let's just take two examples here. uh, let's just take two examples here. One would be One would be One would be why would fertility collapse across why would fertility collapse across why would fertility collapse across nearly every country around the world at nearly every country around the world at nearly every country around the world at almost the same time? almost the same time? almost the same time? You can have theological conversations You can have theological conversations You can have theological conversations about this, you can have political, you about this, you can have political, you about this, you can have political, you can have economic conversations about can have economic conversations about can have economic conversations about this, this, this, but one of the ways you have to look at but one of the ways you have to look at but one of the ways you have to look at this this this is through technological adaptation or is through technological adaptation or is through technological adaptation or adoption. adoption. adoption. And that's why we look back and say, And that's why we look back and say, And that's why we look back and say, well, on the one hand, well, on the one hand, well, on the one hand, we're not seeing nearly as many teen we're not seeing nearly as many teen we're not seeing nearly as many teen pregnancies as we saw before. We're not pregnancies as we saw before. We're not pregnancies as we saw before. We're not seeing nearly as much drunk driving.

seeing nearly as much drunk driving. seeing nearly as much drunk driving. That's positive. That's positive. That's positive. On the negative side, it's because On the negative side, it's because On the negative side, it's because people aren't having sex very much people aren't having sex very much people aren't having sex very much anymore and they're not hanging out with anymore and they're not hanging out with anymore and they're not hanging out with each other anymore. Why? each other anymore. Why? each other anymore. Why? Because they're on their phones. Because they're on their phones. Because they're on their phones. Not only on their phones, you can also Not only on their phones, you can also Not only on their phones, you can also add streaming services, which is another add streaming services, which is another add streaming services, which is another thing that's new these last 25 years, thing that's new these last 25 years, thing that's new these last 25 years, but it is primarily the phones. Now, but it is primarily the phones. Now, but it is primarily the phones. Now, that's that's one issue and the other that's that's one issue and the other that's that's one issue and the other issue can look at, which we've covered issue can look at, which we've covered issue can look at, which we've covered in Sarah, you've done a great podcast on in Sarah, you've done a great podcast on in Sarah, you've done a great podcast on this, this, this, um would definitely be the the mental um would definitely be the the mental um would definitely be the the mental health of of young women in particular. health of of young women in particular. health of of young women in particular. And we know that Jean Twenge, Jonathan And we know that Jean Twenge, Jonathan And we know that Jean Twenge, Jonathan Haidt especially, have been the lead um Haidt especially, have been the lead um Haidt especially, have been the lead um advocates for recognizing a connection advocates for recognizing a connection advocates for recognizing a connection between this widespread decline in in between this widespread decline in in between this widespread decline in in teenage female mental health teenage female mental health teenage female mental health that corresponds to the adoption of the that corresponds to the adoption of the that corresponds to the adoption of the iPhone, invented in 2007, but not iPhone, invented in 2007, but not iPhone, invented in 2007, but not widespread adopted especially among widespread adopted especially among widespread adopted especially among young women until 2012. young women until 2012. young women until 2012. Now, Now, Now, I was just teaching on this recently at I was just teaching on this recently at I was just teaching on this recently at a church outside of Atlanta a church outside of Atlanta a church outside of Atlanta and I was talking introducing them to and I was talking introducing them to and I was talking introducing them to the terms of uh like rapid-onset gender the terms of uh like rapid-onset gender the terms of uh like rapid-onset gender dysphoria, social contagions. Um how can dysphoria, social contagions. Um how can dysphoria, social contagions. Um how can an idea an idea an idea take something like in the course of a take something like in the course of a take something like in the course of a few short years that say, few short years that say, few short years that say, you know, say 5% to the American you know, say 5% to the American you know, say 5% to the American population would identify as as LGBTQ.

population would identify as as LGBTQ. population would identify as as LGBTQ. How does that number go in a few years How does that number go in a few years How does that number go in a few years to 40% to 40% to 40% of young women identifying that way? of young women identifying that way? of young women identifying that way? And then note where it this is And then note where it this is And then note where it this is noteworthy and in the last 2 years noteworthy and in the last 2 years noteworthy and in the last 2 years declining dramatically again. declining dramatically again. declining dramatically again. Well, that's that's the theory of social Well, that's that's the theory of social Well, that's that's the theory of social contagion, which is the way as an idea contagion, which is the way as an idea contagion, which is the way as an idea will spread dramatically through social will spread dramatically through social will spread dramatically through social networks in a way that produces networks in a way that produces networks in a way that produces widespread effect. But again, how do you widespread effect. But again, how do you widespread effect. But again, how do you how does that happen? Doesn't happen how does that happen? Doesn't happen how does that happen? Doesn't happen without the communication. It doesn't without the communication. It doesn't without the communication. It doesn't happen without a kind of a social happen without a kind of a social happen without a kind of a social imaginary that you inhabit that is imaginary that you inhabit that is imaginary that you inhabit that is driven by these these perceptions shaped driven by these these perceptions shaped driven by these these perceptions shaped by your device which occupies this by your device which occupies this by your device which occupies this overwhelming overwhelming overwhelming uh role in your life. uh role in your life. uh role in your life. So, So, So, when you're talking about any when you're talking about any when you're talking about any theological conversation in the last 25 theological conversation in the last 25 theological conversation in the last 25 years, years, years, it is very difficult to conceive of how it is very difficult to conceive of how it is very difficult to conceive of how it has not been shaped by the iPhone. it has not been shaped by the iPhone. it has not been shaped by the iPhone. Which has given you the rise of YouTube, Which has given you the rise of YouTube, Which has given you the rise of YouTube, it's given you the rise of podcasts, it's given you the rise of podcasts, it's given you the rise of podcasts, it's given you the rise of audiobooks. A it's given you the rise of audiobooks. A it's given you the rise of audiobooks. A lot of these things are really positive.

lot of these things are really positive. lot of these things are really positive. Of course, we wouldn't be Of course, we wouldn't be Of course, we wouldn't be wasting all of this We'd be wasting all wasting all of this We'd be wasting all wasting all of this We'd be wasting all this time if we didn't care about that. this time if we didn't care about that. this time if we didn't care about that. That's how most of us most people are That's how most of us most people are That's how most of us most people are engaging with us right now, and we're engaging with us right now, and we're engaging with us right now, and we're thankful for that. Good things can thankful for that. Good things can thankful for that. Good things can spread just like the negative things can spread just like the negative things can spread just like the negative things can spread. spread. spread. But, there are issues underneath issues, But, there are issues underneath issues, But, there are issues underneath issues, and the iPhone is is is the most and the iPhone is is is the most and the iPhone is is is the most significant invention of our last 25 significant invention of our last 25 significant invention of our last 25 years years years that has the most explanatory power for that has the most explanatory power for that has the most explanatory power for not only our theological discourse in not only our theological discourse in not only our theological discourse in the church, but any number of broader the church, but any number of broader the church, but any number of broader civilizational level trends in shifting civilizational level trends in shifting civilizational level trends in shifting plausibility structures. That's the plausibility structures. That's the plausibility structures. That's the iPhone. Sarah, again, you've done you've iPhone. Sarah, again, you've done you've iPhone. Sarah, again, you've done you've done so much research on this. done so much research on this. done so much research on this. Um what are some of the other effects Um what are some of the other effects Um what are some of the other effects that you see? that you see? that you see? >> Yeah, I you know what I was just >> Yeah, I you know what I was just >> Yeah, I you know what I was just thinking about as you were talking was thinking about as you were talking was thinking about as you were talking was um another thing Jean Twenge points out um another thing Jean Twenge points out um another thing Jean Twenge points out in her book Generations is that you in her book Generations is that you in her book Generations is that you think generations are shaped by events think generations are shaped by events think generations are shaped by events or or something big that happens, a war or or something big that happens, a war or or something big that happens, a war or 9/11 or something, but really they're or 9/11 or something, but really they're or 9/11 or something, but really they're shaped by technology. Um which which shaped by technology. Um which which shaped by technology. Um which which makes me think back to we were just makes me think back to we were just makes me think back to we were just mentioning the number of abortions that mentioning the number of abortions that mentioning the number of abortions that are rising around the world not for a are rising around the world not for a are rising around the world not for a political reason, but for a political reason, but for a political reason, but for a technological reason. Now we have the technological reason. Now we have the technological reason. Now we have the pill, and it's so much easier, and it's pill, and it's so much easier, and it's pill, and it's so much easier, and it's so much cheaper, and you can just do it so much cheaper, and you can just do it so much cheaper, and you can just do it in your own house. And so, the reason in your own house. And so, the reason in your own house. And so, the reason abortions are going went down for all abortions are going went down for all abortions are going went down for all those years had almost nothing to do those years had almost nothing to do those years had almost nothing to do with any any restrictions that were with any any restrictions that were with any any restrictions that were passed at the state level or who was in passed at the state level or who was in passed at the state level or who was in the White House. And the reason they're the White House. And the reason they're the White House. And the reason they're going back up doesn't have anything to going back up doesn't have anything to going back up doesn't have anything to do with it, either.

do with it, either. do with it, either. Um so, I was just thinking about how Um so, I was just thinking about how Um so, I was just thinking about how technology shifts us. technology shifts us. technology shifts us. >> We >> We >> We We covered this earlier, but um We covered this earlier, but um We covered this earlier, but um and I just have to remind us sometimes and I just have to remind us sometimes and I just have to remind us sometimes of some basic basic facts. of some basic basic facts. of some basic basic facts. Do we think that the number of Do we think that the number of Do we think that the number of of minority men of minority men of minority men being shot by police officers, being shot by police officers, being shot by police officers, especially in unjust ways, do we think especially in unjust ways, do we think especially in unjust ways, do we think that that problem has gotten a lot worse that that problem has gotten a lot worse that that problem has gotten a lot worse in the last 25 years? in the last 25 years? in the last 25 years? We have a lot more awareness of it, We have a lot more awareness of it, We have a lot more awareness of it, but do we think that the numbers have but do we think that the numbers have but do we think that the numbers have increased a lot or the injustice has increased a lot or the injustice has increased a lot or the injustice has increased a lot? increased a lot? increased a lot? Not likely. Not likely. Not likely. It's probably more plausible that our It's probably more plausible that our It's probably more plausible that our awareness is what's really changed, awareness is what's really changed, awareness is what's really changed, which has a lot of positive effect um which has a lot of positive effect um which has a lot of positive effect um because now we can do something about because now we can do something about because now we can do something about it. We can we can reform police. We can it. We can we can reform police. We can it. We can we can reform police. We can finally hold people to account. We can finally hold people to account. We can finally hold people to account. We can put them in jail. We can there's all put them in jail. We can there's all put them in jail. We can there's all sorts of positive things, but it also sorts of positive things, but it also sorts of positive things, but it also changes our sense that the world is changes our sense that the world is changes our sense that the world is getting a lot worse. I'm more physically getting a lot worse. I'm more physically getting a lot worse. I'm more physically threatened. Um I mean, just thinking threatened. Um I mean, just thinking threatened. Um I mean, just thinking about how many violent, horrible deaths about how many violent, horrible deaths about how many violent, horrible deaths are we subjected to having to watch are we subjected to having to watch are we subjected to having to watch nearly live if you just want to be on nearly live if you just want to be on nearly live if you just want to be on your phone at all?

your phone at all? your phone at all? I mean, I can be looking for recruiting I mean, I can be looking for recruiting I mean, I can be looking for recruiting updates for Northwestern football and updates for Northwestern football and updates for Northwestern football and boom, all of a sudden I'm watching a guy boom, all of a sudden I'm watching a guy boom, all of a sudden I'm watching a guy get executed in the streets. get executed in the streets. get executed in the streets. I That is That's a different experience. I That is That's a different experience. I That is That's a different experience. A very disorienting one. Mike, how do we A very disorienting one. Mike, how do we A very disorienting one. Mike, how do we How do we even cope with that? How do we even cope with that? How do we even cope with that? >> There's so much complexity of you know, >> There's so much complexity of you know, >> There's so much complexity of you know, when I think about the first half of my when I think about the first half of my when I think about the first half of my life and how knowledge was acquired, you life and how knowledge was acquired, you life and how knowledge was acquired, you know, how knowledge was acquired was know, how knowledge was acquired was know, how knowledge was acquired was primarily in the classroom and through primarily in the classroom and through primarily in the classroom and through books. books. books. And the second half of my life, you And the second half of my life, you And the second half of my life, you know, and at this point in my life it's know, and at this point in my life it's know, and at this point in my life it's it's almost like half was in you know, it's almost like half was in you know, it's almost like half was in you know, one century and you know, a little bit one century and you know, a little bit one century and you know, a little bit more than half in this century. You more than half in this century. You more than half in this century. You know, now know, now know, now what was embodied in physical is largely what was embodied in physical is largely what was embodied in physical is largely dis you know, disembodied in digital. dis you know, disembodied in digital. dis you know, disembodied in digital. And so, you know, most of the learning And so, you know, most of the learning And so, you know, most of the learning that I'm at am happening is is being that I'm at am happening is is being that I'm at am happening is is being mediated on screens. mediated on screens. mediated on screens. And even even within this century, the And even even within this century, the And even even within this century, the the evolution of that is is shifting the evolution of that is is shifting the evolution of that is is shifting rapidly. So, most of the source material rapidly. So, most of the source material rapidly. So, most of the source material for the last you know, for the first 22 for the last you know, for the first 22 for the last you know, for the first 22 years of this century was primarily years of this century was primarily years of this century was primarily occurring through primary sources. I'm occurring through primary sources. I'm occurring through primary sources. I'm reading ebooks, I'm reading PDFs, I'm reading ebooks, I'm reading PDFs, I'm reading ebooks, I'm reading PDFs, I'm reading articles, I'm reading essays, reading articles, I'm reading essays, reading articles, I'm reading essays, I'm watching videos, so on and so forth.

I'm watching videos, so on and so forth. I'm watching videos, so on and so forth. But then in the last 3 years, But then in the last 3 years, But then in the last 3 years, there's been a big shift there to there's been a big shift there to there's been a big shift there to artificial intelligence with the large artificial intelligence with the large artificial intelligence with the large language models. And now, you know, what language models. And now, you know, what language models. And now, you know, what was primary source material is now was primary source material is now was primary source material is now secondary source material. And so, you secondary source material. And so, you secondary source material. And so, you know, and so what stands between me and know, and so what stands between me and know, and so what stands between me and knowledge is you know, basically, you knowledge is you know, basically, you knowledge is you know, basically, you know, out you know, massive statistics know, out you know, massive statistics know, out you know, massive statistics and massive compute that you know, and massive compute that you know, and massive compute that you know, statistics plus words equals what comes statistics plus words equals what comes statistics plus words equals what comes out of, you know, the large language out of, you know, the large language out of, you know, the large language models. And so, it's not that there's models. And so, it's not that there's models. And so, it's not that there's some big conspiracy or whatever that some big conspiracy or whatever that some big conspiracy or whatever that Silicon Valley is trying to, Silicon Valley is trying to, Silicon Valley is trying to, you know, do this this to us or that to you know, do this this to us or that to you know, do this this to us or that to us, but us, but us, but there's a sense in which Silicon Valley there's a sense in which Silicon Valley there's a sense in which Silicon Valley are now the high priests of are now the high priests of are now the high priests of epistemological knowledge. And as people epistemological knowledge. And as people epistemological knowledge. And as people move away from Google search, which move away from Google search, which move away from Google search, which would put you in back into primary would put you in back into primary would put you in back into primary sources, now they're just going to get sources, now they're just going to get sources, now they're just going to get summaries that gives you a statistical summaries that gives you a statistical summaries that gives you a statistical distillation distillation distillation average of, you know, all the stuff that average of, you know, all the stuff that average of, you know, all the stuff that it's been trained on, you know, good, it's been trained on, you know, good, it's been trained on, you know, good, bad, and everything in between.

bad, and everything in between. bad, and everything in between. The the it The the it The the it the greater complexity to, you know, and the greater complexity to, you know, and the greater complexity to, you know, and related to AI is, you know, I mean, it's related to AI is, you know, I mean, it's related to AI is, you know, I mean, it's not like AI is new. Because the same not like AI is new. Because the same not like AI is new. Because the same technology that kind of, you know, technology that kind of, you know, technology that kind of, you know, drove, you know, we've had AI in our drove, you know, we've had AI in our drove, you know, we've had AI in our pockets for years. pockets for years. pockets for years. >> Yeah. You know, when when you go back to >> Yeah. You know, when when you go back to >> Yeah. You know, when when you go back to 2010 when Meta, you know, introduced uh 2010 when Meta, you know, introduced uh 2010 when Meta, you know, introduced uh PageRank, PageRank, PageRank, um the first algorithm on um the first algorithm on um the first algorithm on the Facebook timeline, it's it's not the Facebook timeline, it's it's not the Facebook timeline, it's it's not that different of a technology that was that different of a technology that was that different of a technology that was kind of mediating what it is that we kind of mediating what it is that we kind of mediating what it is that we saw. saw. saw. Um so, these are not new, you know, new Um so, these are not new, you know, new Um so, these are not new, you know, new things and new trends. But the challenge things and new trends. But the challenge things and new trends. But the challenge is is moving forward is is is moving forward is is is moving forward is the the ways in which we've become the the ways in which we've become the the ways in which we've become siloed because attention is money. siloed because attention is money. siloed because attention is money. Okay? And almost all these tech Okay? And almost all these tech Okay? And almost all these tech companies are publicly traded and the companies are publicly traded and the companies are publicly traded and the ones that aren't are trying to trying to ones that aren't are trying to trying to ones that aren't are trying to trying to become publicly traded. And so, become publicly traded. And so, become publicly traded. And so, when attention and money are the same when attention and money are the same when attention and money are the same thing thing thing and you have shareholders and you have and you have shareholders and you have and you have shareholders and you have to feed those shareholders money, to feed those shareholders money, to feed those shareholders money, then, then, then, you know, every every, you know, tech you know, every every, you know, tech you know, every every, you know, tech company is trying to get more and more company is trying to get more and more company is trying to get more and more of your attention. Well, how do they get of your attention. Well, how do they get of your attention. Well, how do they get more and more of your attention? Well, more and more of your attention? Well, more and more of your attention? Well, they need to show you things that you they need to show you things that you they need to show you things that you want to see. And what that does is that want to see. And what that does is that want to see. And what that does is that incentivizes incentivizes incentivizes technology not from a truth orientation.

technology not from a truth orientation. technology not from a truth orientation. It incentivizes things from an attention It incentivizes things from an attention It incentivizes things from an attention orientation. And the problem with that orientation. And the problem with that orientation. And the problem with that is that humans are fallen and broken. is that humans are fallen and broken. is that humans are fallen and broken. And so, in order for the tech companies And so, in order for the tech companies And so, in order for the tech companies to make money, they have to do things to make money, they have to do things to make money, they have to do things that actually push us further into our that actually push us further into our that actually push us further into our depravity. depravity. depravity. And so, this presents real challenges And so, this presents real challenges And so, this presents real challenges for the the future of knowledge, for the for the the future of knowledge, for the for the the future of knowledge, for the future of our faith. future of our faith. future of our faith. And it I mean, if we really want to And it I mean, if we really want to And it I mean, if we really want to bring this thing full circle to a number bring this thing full circle to a number bring this thing full circle to a number of different threads, let me tie a of different threads, let me tie a of different threads, let me tie a couple knots for us and put a bow on couple knots for us and put a bow on couple knots for us and put a bow on this. Okay, so we talked about fertility this. Okay, so we talked about fertility this. Okay, so we talked about fertility and we've talked about Gen Z quite a and we've talked about Gen Z quite a and we've talked about Gen Z quite a bit. Okay? Well, what happens, you know, bit. Okay? Well, what happens, you know, bit. Okay? Well, what happens, you know, and we've talked about institutions and and we've talked about institutions and and we've talked about institutions and distrust in the rising distrust in distrust in the rising distrust in distrust in the rising distrust in institutions. These have been all things institutions. These have been all things institutions. These have been all things that we've discussed in this top 10. All that we've discussed in this top 10. All that we've discussed in this top 10. All right, let me bring all these threads right, let me bring all these threads right, let me bring all these threads together. Okay, so as as the distrust in together. Okay, so as as the distrust in together. Okay, so as as the distrust in institutions has risen institutions has risen institutions has risen and as people have increasingly gone for and as people have increasingly gone for and as people have increasingly gone for their information diet where they go to their information diet where they go to their information diet where they go to seek out knowledge seek out knowledge seek out knowledge intentionally or unintentionally, they intentionally or unintentionally, they intentionally or unintentionally, they go to highly individualistically, go to highly individualistically, go to highly individualistically, algorithmically controlled algorithmically controlled algorithmically controlled methods, whether that's AI or through methods, whether that's AI or through methods, whether that's AI or through so, you know, algorithms and social so, you know, algorithms and social so, you know, algorithms and social media. They're increasingly seeing media. They're increasingly seeing media. They're increasingly seeing things that are what they want to hear.

things that are what they want to hear. things that are what they want to hear. And so people increasingly go down And so people increasingly go down And so people increasingly go down highly individualistic rabbit holes. highly individualistic rabbit holes. highly individualistic rabbit holes. And so what happened in the past is that And so what happened in the past is that And so what happened in the past is that men and women often did not diverge too men and women often did not diverge too men and women often did not diverge too much ideologically or even politically. much ideologically or even politically. much ideologically or even politically. They often, you know, movements one way They often, you know, movements one way They often, you know, movements one way or the other, they were done in parallel or the other, they were done in parallel or the other, they were done in parallel like schools of fish. like schools of fish. like schools of fish. But that has changed in the last, you But that has changed in the last, you But that has changed in the last, you know, 10 to 12 years with the era of know, 10 to 12 years with the era of know, 10 to 12 years with the era of smartphones, social media, and now AI. smartphones, social media, and now AI. smartphones, social media, and now AI. And so you have young women who have one And so you have young women who have one And so you have young women who have one very very specific type of media diet very very specific type of media diet very very specific type of media diet that trends one way, and now you have that trends one way, and now you have that trends one way, and now you have young men whose media diet trends a very young men whose media diet trends a very young men whose media diet trends a very different way. And the reason why those different way. And the reason why those different way. And the reason why those things didn't work that way in the past things didn't work that way in the past things didn't work that way in the past was because institutions, physical was because institutions, physical was because institutions, physical institutions, had a mediating influence. institutions, had a mediating influence. institutions, had a mediating influence. And men and women would move together And men and women would move together And men and women would move together and they, you know, whatever the ebb and and they, you know, whatever the ebb and and they, you know, whatever the ebb and flow and the tide of men and women, they flow and the tide of men and women, they flow and the tide of men and women, they would still move together because they would still move together because they would still move together because they were still a part of those physically were still a part of those physically were still a part of those physically mediated institutions. But now mediated institutions. But now mediated institutions. But now in this anti-institutional era, in this in this anti-institutional era, in this in this anti-institutional era, in this era where everybody's information diet era where everybody's information diet era where everybody's information diet is completely individualized, is completely individualized, is completely individualized, you know, it's we're going back to the you know, it's we're going back to the you know, it's we're going back to the era of the judges where everybody just era of the judges where everybody just era of the judges where everybody just does what's right in their own eyes. So does what's right in their own eyes. So does what's right in their own eyes. So So young men are moving one way, young So young men are moving one way, young So young men are moving one way, young women are moving the other way, and now women are moving the other way, and now women are moving the other way, and now this impacts marriage rates, it's going this impacts marriage rates, it's going this impacts marriage rates, it's going to impact fertility, it's going to to impact fertility, it's going to to impact fertility, it's going to impact the, you know, voting patterns,

impact the, you know, voting patterns, impact the, you know, voting patterns, and all of these things from a and all of these things from a and all of these things from a demographic standpoint are going to get demographic standpoint are going to get demographic standpoint are going to get very interesting. very interesting. very interesting. >> And then add sycophancy, you talk about >> And then add sycophancy, you talk about >> And then add sycophancy, you talk about this in the AI Christian benchmark. The this in the AI Christian benchmark. The this in the AI Christian benchmark. The idea that AI idea that AI idea that AI gives us what we want to hear. It's not gives us what we want to hear. It's not gives us what we want to hear. It's not giving us the facts, it's giving us giving us the facts, it's giving us giving us the facts, it's giving us summaries of what it of what we expected summaries of what it of what we expected summaries of what it of what we expected to be able to hear. So, that's to be able to hear. So, that's to be able to hear. So, that's exacerbated in here. Um, and I just I exacerbated in here. Um, and I just I exacerbated in here. Um, and I just I just look back as we head toward the just look back as we head toward the just look back as we head toward the number one issue here. Um, it just number one issue here. Um, it just number one issue here. Um, it just there's so many things that they push in there's so many things that they push in there's so many things that they push in so many different directions, and I so many different directions, and I so many different directions, and I think we've we've handled, like you said think we've we've handled, like you said think we've we've handled, like you said there, Mike, a lot of the complexity of there, Mike, a lot of the complexity of there, Mike, a lot of the complexity of this and seeing that the you you pull this and seeing that the you you pull this and seeing that the you you pull one thread and then 20 more follow in one thread and then 20 more follow in one thread and then 20 more follow in there. That's what That's what makes a there. That's what That's what makes a there. That's what That's what makes a story rise to that level of number two, story rise to that level of number two, story rise to that level of number two, of being that big. But, in this online of being that big. But, in this online of being that big. But, in this online shift, it's one more one more thing to shift, it's one more one more thing to shift, it's one more one more thing to be able to add here be able to add here be able to add here is the the role that the is the the role that the is the the role that the online world has played in relating to a online world has played in relating to a online world has played in relating to a lot of the abuse scandals of the last 25 lot of the abuse scandals of the last 25 lot of the abuse scandals of the last 25 years.

years. years. Um, Um, Um, and I go back again thinking about the and I go back again thinking about the and I go back again thinking about the the the Great Awakening, thinking about the the Great Awakening, thinking about the the Great Awakening, thinking about these officer-involved shootings of these officer-involved shootings of these officer-involved shootings of African-American men. African-American men. African-American men. Was there a huge increase? No, but our Was there a huge increase? No, but our Was there a huge increase? No, but our perception has changed and hopefully our perception has changed and hopefully our perception has changed and hopefully our ability to try to change it. ability to try to change it. ability to try to change it. Um, that's the ideal. Um, that's the ideal. Um, that's the ideal. Similarly, do we think that Similarly, do we think that Similarly, do we think that priests and you know, it's unfortunately priests and you know, it's unfortunately priests and you know, it's unfortunately it's not limited to Catholic priests by it's not limited to Catholic priests by it's not limited to Catholic priests by any means. Do we think that that problem any means. Do we think that that problem any means. Do we think that that problem started in the year 2000? started in the year 2000? started in the year 2000? Obviously not. Do we think that it got Obviously not. Do we think that it got Obviously not. Do we think that it got worse in the year 2000 and since then? worse in the year 2000 and since then? worse in the year 2000 and since then? I don't think that's even very likely, I don't think that's even very likely, I don't think that's even very likely, either. either. either. But, how is our awareness of the problem But, how is our awareness of the problem But, how is our awareness of the problem changed dramatically? changed dramatically? changed dramatically? That is because as you go back to the That is because as you go back to the That is because as you go back to the Boston Globe 2002 Spotlight um series, Boston Globe 2002 Spotlight um series, Boston Globe 2002 Spotlight um series, uh there had been there had been priests uh there had been there had been priests uh there had been there had been priests who were who were who were who were I mean brought up on charges who were I mean brought up on charges who were I mean brought up on charges and put in jail for this. and put in jail for this. and put in jail for this. But you wouldn't find it in your But you wouldn't find it in your But you wouldn't find it in your newspaper or you would see it you could newspaper or you would see it you could newspaper or you would see it you could see it but you'd have to find it buried see it but you'd have to find it buried see it but you'd have to find it buried in a very large newspaper. Another thing in a very large newspaper. Another thing in a very large newspaper. Another thing that's disappeared last 25 years.

that's disappeared last 25 years. that's disappeared last 25 years. But then with Spotlight and the internet But then with Spotlight and the internet But then with Spotlight and the internet you can now see it you can now see it you can now see it anywhere you go and anywhere around the anywhere you go and anywhere around the anywhere you go and anywhere around the world. And that's now true of any given world. And that's now true of any given world. And that's now true of any given controversy. We've alluded to this controversy. We've alluded to this controversy. We've alluded to this already. already. already. Um but that is a is a major shift of how Um but that is a is a major shift of how Um but that is a is a major shift of how every single theological issue and every single theological issue and every single theological issue and challenge in the church can be challenge in the church can be challenge in the church can be immediately imputed to the whole. immediately imputed to the whole. immediately imputed to the whole. And that underlines so many different And that underlines so many different And that underlines so many different assumptions. So Mike, I think you do a assumptions. So Mike, I think you do a assumptions. So Mike, I think you do a you great job there of just laying out you great job there of just laying out you great job there of just laying out the way that the shift toward the the way that the shift toward the the way that the shift toward the digital digital digital creates an entirely different a social creates an entirely different a social creates an entirely different a social imaginary imaginary imaginary that transforms what we regard to be that transforms what we regard to be that transforms what we regard to be plausible, good, bad plausible, good, bad plausible, good, bad in ways that are shaped um or and we are in ways that are shaped um or and we are in ways that are shaped um or and we are shaped then in ways that we are not shaped then in ways that we are not shaped then in ways that we are not actively comprehending. actively comprehending. actively comprehending. Because we're receiving them as simply a Because we're receiving them as simply a Because we're receiving them as simply a reflection of the world, but the reflection of the world, but the reflection of the world, but the reflection we have is narcissus. reflection we have is narcissus. reflection we have is narcissus. It turns out to be the reflection is us It turns out to be the reflection is us It turns out to be the reflection is us and what we want to see or worse, what and what we want to see or worse, what and what we want to see or worse, what we fear the most.

we fear the most. we fear the most. That's the real danger here and you have That's the real danger here and you have That's the real danger here and you have got to fight back against that. And we got to fight back against that. And we got to fight back against that. And we tried the Gospel Coalition to fight back tried the Gospel Coalition to fight back tried the Gospel Coalition to fight back against that by telling all these against that by telling all these against that by telling all these positive stories of how God's at work in positive stories of how God's at work in positive stories of how God's at work in the world through what Sarah does. the world through what Sarah does. the world through what Sarah does. We also try to do this by going back to We also try to do this by going back to We also try to do this by going back to what you said, Mike, which is to focus what you said, Mike, which is to focus what you said, Mike, which is to focus on the mediating institutions, the on the mediating institutions, the on the mediating institutions, the community, the family, the church. community, the family, the church. community, the family, the church. These have been ordained for our good. These have been ordained for our good. These have been ordained for our good. And that's why they're so necessary And that's why they're so necessary And that's why they're so necessary because that will allow us then to come because that will allow us then to come because that will allow us then to come together together together and not to be subject to the whims of and not to be subject to the whims of and not to be subject to the whims of ever-changing algorithm and the ever-changing algorithm and the ever-changing algorithm and the and the device in our pockets. and the device in our pockets. and the device in our pockets. >> And give us relationship that is real >> And give us relationship that is real >> And give us relationship that is real and and and um um um and healthy. Yeah, that's good. and healthy. Yeah, that's good. and healthy. Yeah, that's good. Um I I think this is a huge story. Um I I think this is a huge story. Um I I think this is a huge story. Honestly, Con, I thought this was going Honestly, Con, I thought this was going Honestly, Con, I thought this was going to be number one, the way that digital to be number one, the way that digital to be number one, the way that digital life has changed us over the last since life has changed us over the last since life has changed us over the last since we were, you know, in college. That's we were, you know, in college. That's we were, you know, in college. That's it's been huge. it's been huge. it's been huge. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um but I think that was my chronological >> Um but I think that was my chronological >> Um but I think that was my chronological snobbery because I'm taking I was snobbery because I'm taking I was snobbery because I'm taking I was thinking about what was urgent rather thinking about what was urgent rather thinking about what was urgent rather than what was important. And your number than what was important. And your number than what was important. And your number one is actually not a new story. And I one is actually not a new story. And I one is actually not a new story. And I think a lot of people maybe even would think a lot of people maybe even would think a lot of people maybe even would be surprised at how old it was. So, why be surprised at how old it was. So, why be surprised at how old it was. So, why did What did you pick and why for number did What did you pick and why for number did What did you pick and why for number one?

one? one? >> Yeah, it's it's 9/11. So, here's >> Yeah, it's it's 9/11. So, here's >> Yeah, it's it's 9/11. So, here's here's why it's 9/11. Now, let me give here's why it's 9/11. Now, let me give here's why it's 9/11. Now, let me give you the case for why maybe the phones you the case for why maybe the phones you the case for why maybe the phones should have been first, okay? should have been first, okay? should have been first, okay? I think I'll Just think about this. I think I'll Just think about this. I think I'll Just think about this. Imagine if 9/11 happened today. What would Twitter do with that? What What would Twitter do with that? What would Reddit do with that? What would AI would Reddit do with that? What would AI would Reddit do with that? What would AI do with that? do with that? do with that? Sometimes I wonder if we could have Sometimes I wonder if we could have Sometimes I wonder if we could have survived that. I mean I mean that survived that. I mean I mean that survived that. I mean I mean that literally. I don't know literally. I don't know literally. I don't know what we would have done to tear each what we would have done to tear each what we would have done to tear each other apart other apart other apart um through that or just all of the um through that or just all of the um through that or just all of the wildest conspiracy theories exploding on wildest conspiracy theories exploding on wildest conspiracy theories exploding on us at the exact same time that we're all us at the exact same time that we're all us at the exact same time that we're all just trying to come to terms with what just trying to come to terms with what just trying to come to terms with what we have just watched happen. we have just watched happen. we have just watched happen. So, the kind of mass trauma experienced So, the kind of mass trauma experienced So, the kind of mass trauma experienced by something one of the first by something one of the first by something one of the first I mean, there have been other bad things I mean, there have been other bad things I mean, there have been other bad things that we've seen happen. We've seen space that we've seen happen. We've seen space that we've seen happen. We've seen space shuttles um blow up, which happened also shuttles um blow up, which happened also shuttles um blow up, which happened also in the last I mean, it's happened a in the last I mean, it's happened a in the last I mean, it's happened a couple times, unfortunately, of course.

couple times, unfortunately, of course. couple times, unfortunately, of course. But um we've seen bad things happen But um we've seen bad things happen But um we've seen bad things happen before. We've seen things reported before. We've seen things reported before. We've seen things reported almost live. Think about the Vietnam War almost live. Think about the Vietnam War almost live. Think about the Vietnam War as an example of the the Tet Offensive as an example of the the Tet Offensive as an example of the the Tet Offensive in '68, what not, but in '68, what not, but in '68, what not, but nothing quite like the experience of nothing quite like the experience of nothing quite like the experience of what we watched, so many of us watched what we watched, so many of us watched what we watched, so many of us watched in in 9/11. in in 9/11. in in 9/11. Um Um Um that when you look back in the last 25 that when you look back in the last 25 that when you look back in the last 25 years, if you asked people, what's the years, if you asked people, what's the years, if you asked people, what's the one thing one thing one thing that you would cite as the where were that you would cite as the where were that you would cite as the where were you when? you when? you when? Um it's got to be 9/11. Um it's got to be 9/11. Um it's got to be 9/11. Now, COVID-19, you know, what was the Now, COVID-19, you know, what was the Now, COVID-19, you know, what was the first moment you realized the world was first moment you realized the world was first moment you realized the world was going to shut down? I can remember that, going to shut down? I can remember that, going to shut down? I can remember that, too. You guys probably can as well. too. You guys probably can as well. too. You guys probably can as well. Um but the number one is definitely Um but the number one is definitely Um but the number one is definitely 9/11. When we are 9/11. When we are 9/11. When we are you know, Lord willing, if it gives us you know, Lord willing, if it gives us you know, Lord willing, if it gives us eight 80 years, we're still going to be eight 80 years, we're still going to be eight 80 years, we're still going to be talking about where were you on talking about where were you on talking about where were you on September 11th, 2001, and how did that September 11th, 2001, and how did that September 11th, 2001, and how did that how did that change your life? So, how did that change your life? So, how did that change your life? So, that's just kind of the broader scope that's just kind of the broader scope that's just kind of the broader scope there, but I want to drill down into a there, but I want to drill down into a there, but I want to drill down into a couple different applications of this. couple different applications of this. couple different applications of this. Um when you're at that 30,000-ft view, Um when you're at that 30,000-ft view, Um when you're at that 30,000-ft view, and then when you keep rising, and then when you keep rising, and then when you keep rising, you keep rising to you keep rising to you keep rising to bigger picture, you need to zero you bigger picture, you need to zero you bigger picture, you need to zero you need to need to need to you need to zoom out to history.

you need to zoom out to history. you need to zoom out to history. And when you look at the past, And when you look at the past, And when you look at the past, and then you use the past to come and then you use the past to come and then you use the past to come through our time period that is 25 through our time period that is 25 through our time period that is 25 years, our lifetimes, then you look years, our lifetimes, then you look years, our lifetimes, then you look forward, forward, forward, you see, what was the big story back you see, what was the big story back you see, what was the big story back then that was the big story today, that then that was the big story today, that then that was the big story today, that will be the big story in the future? will be the big story in the future? will be the big story in the future? Is it not the relationship and the Is it not the relationship and the Is it not the relationship and the conflict between Christianity and Islam? conflict between Christianity and Islam? conflict between Christianity and Islam? Because it's not atheism Because it's not atheism Because it's not atheism that is growing and that is going not that is growing and that is going not that is growing and that is going not not in the global perspective. Um it's a not in the global perspective. Um it's a not in the global perspective. Um it's a Western phenomenon. That's it's not Western phenomenon. That's it's not Western phenomenon. That's it's not growing. I mean, of course, it's a growing. I mean, of course, it's a growing. I mean, of course, it's a communist phenomenon as well, but um communist phenomenon as well, but um communist phenomenon as well, but um with significant implications in China, with significant implications in China, with significant implications in China, but not so much in, you know, but not so much in, you know, but not so much in, you know, post-Soviet uh world. So, it's not post-Soviet uh world. So, it's not post-Soviet uh world. So, it's not atheism, it's not communism. atheism, it's not communism. atheism, it's not communism. Um it's not Hinduism, which is not a Um it's not Hinduism, which is not a Um it's not Hinduism, which is not a converting religion. It's it's um I converting religion. It's it's um I converting religion. It's it's um I mean, it's it's largely an Indian mean, it's it's largely an Indian mean, it's it's largely an Indian phenomenon. We talk about Hindu phenomenon. We talk about Hindu phenomenon. We talk about Hindu nationalism. nationalism. nationalism. Um Um Um it's not it's not it's not Buddhism. I it's not it's not it's not Buddhism. I it's not it's not it's not Buddhism. I mean, you you could keep coming It's mean, you you could keep coming It's mean, you you could keep coming It's There's no It's not Mormonism. It's not There's no It's not Mormonism. It's not There's no It's not Mormonism. It's not It's It's grown a lot, but it's not It's It's grown a lot, but it's not It's It's grown a lot, but it's not taking over.

taking over. taking over. So, what is going to be the dominant So, what is going to be the dominant So, what is going to be the dominant block formation of how people organize? block formation of how people organize? block formation of how people organize? Well, there's going to be a world that's Well, there's going to be a world that's Well, there's going to be a world that's been largely shaped and continue to be been largely shaped and continue to be been largely shaped and continue to be shaped by Christianity, and there's a shaped by Christianity, and there's a shaped by Christianity, and there's a world that's been shaped by Islam. world that's been shaped by Islam. world that's been shaped by Islam. That's And those are going to come in That's And those are going to come in That's And those are going to come in conflict, in part because of their conflict, in part because of their conflict, in part because of their similarities. similarities. similarities. Here's our three of the great Here's our three of the great Here's our three of the great monotheistic religions to go along with monotheistic religions to go along with monotheistic religions to go along with with Judaism. But also their dramatic with Judaism. But also their dramatic with Judaism. But also their dramatic substantial differences. Submission at substantial differences. Submission at substantial differences. Submission at the heart of Islam and grace at the the heart of Islam and grace at the the heart of Islam and grace at the heart of Christianity. heart of Christianity. heart of Christianity. Um one of the most significant books I Um one of the most significant books I Um one of the most significant books I read during this this this time period read during this this this time period read during this this this time period was by Joseph Henrich at the Harvard was by Joseph Henrich at the Harvard was by Joseph Henrich at the Harvard University. Um The Weirdest People in University. Um The Weirdest People in University. Um The Weirdest People in the World, Western Educated um the World, Western Educated um the World, Western Educated um Industrial, Rich, and Democratic. And Industrial, Rich, and Democratic. And Industrial, Rich, and Democratic. And the framing of our entire civilization the framing of our entire civilization the framing of our entire civilization as having been formed over the course of as having been formed over the course of as having been formed over the course of 1,500 years by Christian practices and 1,500 years by Christian practices and 1,500 years by Christian practices and assumptions, namely around the family assumptions, namely around the family assumptions, namely around the family and the community and and the and the community and and the and the community and and the neighborhood uh just like we just we we neighborhood uh just like we just we we neighborhood uh just like we just we we just talked about in the last one.

just talked about in the last one. just talked about in the last one. But what are those parts of the world But what are those parts of the world But what are those parts of the world that have never been shaped in the same that have never been shaped in the same that have never been shaped in the same way by fundamental Christian assumptions way by fundamental Christian assumptions way by fundamental Christian assumptions about what it about freedom, about about what it about freedom, about about what it about freedom, about organization, about community, about organization, about community, about organization, about community, about family? It's obviously the Islamic family? It's obviously the Islamic family? It's obviously the Islamic places. places. places. And then going forward, what do we see And then going forward, what do we see And then going forward, what do we see as the kind of the major dispute across as the kind of the major dispute across as the kind of the major dispute across Western countries today? Western countries today? Western countries today? It's immigration. It's immigration. It's immigration. And it's different for us in the United And it's different for us in the United And it's different for us in the United States because most of our immigrants States because most of our immigrants States because most of our immigrants come from Central and South America. come from Central and South America. come from Central and South America. Um and that, of course, are largely Um and that, of course, are largely Um and that, of course, are largely Christian places, but that's not the Christian places, but that's not the Christian places, but that's not the case in Europe. case in Europe. case in Europe. So, when we can consider the So, when we can consider the So, when we can consider the implications in this next generation implications in this next generation implications in this next generation beyond, beyond, beyond, it seems as though, and I talked about it seems as though, and I talked about it seems as though, and I talked about this in my secularism podcast for Gospel this in my secularism podcast for Gospel this in my secularism podcast for Gospel Minds, it seems like we need a Minds, it seems like we need a Minds, it seems like we need a re-encounter with Christianity re-encounter with Christianity re-encounter with Christianity or we will see some kind of or we will see some kind of or we will see some kind of continued growth or beyond from Islam. continued growth or beyond from Islam. continued growth or beyond from Islam. So, that seems to be when we really zoom So, that seems to be when we really zoom So, that seems to be when we really zoom out furthest in history, when we really out furthest in history, when we really out furthest in history, when we really get the highest elevation, get the highest elevation, get the highest elevation, and then we come to a specific event and then we come to a specific event and then we come to a specific event that had that kind of mass trauma effect that had that kind of mass trauma effect that had that kind of mass trauma effect of the wherewithal. I think that's why of the wherewithal. I think that's why of the wherewithal. I think that's why it needs to be 9/11 as as the most it needs to be 9/11 as as the most it needs to be 9/11 as as the most significant um theological story. Now, significant um theological story. Now, significant um theological story. Now, let me just add one one more bit that let me just add one one more bit that let me just add one one more bit that explains what's the further theological explains what's the further theological explains what's the further theological element here.

element here. element here. I've shared this before. I've shared this before. I've shared this before. Um it's not original to me. I've seen it Um it's not original to me. I've seen it Um it's not original to me. I've seen it from Tim Keller and many others. from Tim Keller and many others. from Tim Keller and many others. But, the shift that you started us with, But, the shift that you started us with, But, the shift that you started us with, Sarah, Sarah, Sarah, the shift that frames the entire great the shift that frames the entire great the shift that frames the entire great de-churching of what was different in de-churching of what was different in de-churching of what was different in 2000 from what was different in 2025 2000 from what was different in 2025 2000 from what was different in 2025 is a story in part about the shift from is a story in part about the shift from is a story in part about the shift from the world of the 1990s was a the world of the 1990s was a the world of the 1990s was a post-communist period where for for post-communist period where for for post-communist period where for for decades the person who was the model decades the person who was the model decades the person who was the model American was somebody who was not a American was somebody who was not a American was somebody who was not a communist. Namely, they were a believer communist. Namely, they were a believer communist. Namely, they were a believer in God, not an atheist, okay? That's the in God, not an atheist, okay? That's the in God, not an atheist, okay? That's the model American. So, the enemy American, model American. So, the enemy American, model American. So, the enemy American, the enemy that we need to oppose the enemy that we need to oppose the enemy that we need to oppose internally and externally is the internally and externally is the internally and externally is the atheist, the communist. atheist, the communist. atheist, the communist. Since 9/11, that and largely Since 9/11, that and largely Since 9/11, that and largely because of 9/11, because of 9/11, because of 9/11, you saw that shift. You see the rise of you saw that shift. You see the rise of you saw that shift. You see the rise of the new atheism is very much a post-9/11 the new atheism is very much a post-9/11 the new atheism is very much a post-9/11 phenomenon. The broadening, I mentioned phenomenon. The broadening, I mentioned phenomenon. The broadening, I mentioned that shift in the Bush administration that shift in the Bush administration that shift in the Bush administration 2005. What was the major factor?

2005. What was the major factor? 2005. What was the major factor? Labeling everybody Labeling everybody Labeling everybody who held a biblical view on sexuality to who held a biblical view on sexuality to who held a biblical view on sexuality to be a quote fundamentalist. be a quote fundamentalist. be a quote fundamentalist. And what are fundamentalists? They are And what are fundamentalists? They are And what are fundamentalists? They are those people who take their religion so those people who take their religion so those people who take their religion so seriously and are so intent on imposing seriously and are so intent on imposing seriously and are so intent on imposing on and everyone else on and everyone else on and everyone else that they would even fly planes into that they would even fly planes into that they would even fly planes into buildings. So like you talked about how buildings. So like you talked about how buildings. So like you talked about how the Great Awakening conflates race and the Great Awakening conflates race and the Great Awakening conflates race and sexuality, this is the conflation of sexuality, this is the conflation of sexuality, this is the conflation of 9/11 with sexuality. 9/11 with sexuality. 9/11 with sexuality. So why was the pump primed for us to be So why was the pump primed for us to be So why was the pump primed for us to be able to shift so quickly on able to shift so quickly on able to shift so quickly on homosexuality? Because anybody who homosexuality? Because anybody who homosexuality? Because anybody who argued was a fundamentalist and argued was a fundamentalist and argued was a fundamentalist and fundamentalists are the people who drove fundamentalists are the people who drove fundamentalists are the people who drove flight planes into buildings. flight planes into buildings. flight planes into buildings. This Westboro Baptist Church, which I This Westboro Baptist Church, which I This Westboro Baptist Church, which I alluded to earlier, in there as well. So alluded to earlier, in there as well. So alluded to earlier, in there as well. So look at all of the implications. And look at all of the implications. And look at all of the implications. And then one last one then one last one then one last one is 9/11 triggered uh it brought the the is 9/11 triggered uh it brought the the is 9/11 triggered uh it brought the the theological question of theodicy. Why theological question of theodicy. Why theological question of theodicy. Why does God allow evil? Um of course does God allow evil? Um of course does God allow evil? Um of course because of what we experienced with because of what we experienced with because of what we experienced with that. I mean, that's such a uh you know, that. I mean, that's such a uh you know, that. I mean, that's such a uh you know, a traumatic event that we have to be a traumatic event that we have to be a traumatic event that we have to be able to to be able to cope with. We have able to to be able to cope with. We have able to to be able to cope with. We have to understand where is God in a world to understand where is God in a world to understand where is God in a world with this kind of evil.

with this kind of evil. with this kind of evil. Do you guys remember what happened then Do you guys remember what happened then Do you guys remember what happened then just a few years later? The Southeast just a few years later? The Southeast just a few years later? The Southeast Asian tsunami. Asian tsunami. Asian tsunami. Then you have Hurricane Katrina, 2005. Then you have Hurricane Katrina, 2005. Then you have Hurricane Katrina, 2005. There's that 2005 again. There's that 2005 again. There's that 2005 again. And mass culture-wide questions about And mass culture-wide questions about And mass culture-wide questions about theodicy, theodicy, theodicy, where Christians were very much on the where Christians were very much on the where Christians were very much on the defensive, pushed by the new atheists, defensive, pushed by the new atheists, defensive, pushed by the new atheists, who were dominating the best-seller who were dominating the best-seller who were dominating the best-seller lists at the time, saying that a good lists at the time, saying that a good lists at the time, saying that a good God would never allow all these things God would never allow all these things God would never allow all these things to happen. Therefore, we can't trust to happen. Therefore, we can't trust to happen. Therefore, we can't trust God. God. God. Um and we certainly can't trust his um Um and we certainly can't trust his um Um and we certainly can't trust his um his teachers here on Earth. So his teachers here on Earth. So his teachers here on Earth. So that's my case for why I think that um that's my case for why I think that um that's my case for why I think that um is at the top of this list. is at the top of this list. is at the top of this list. And uh and again, it's it's it's long And uh and again, it's it's it's long And uh and again, it's it's it's long time long time back, but um even though time long time back, but um even though time long time back, but um even though we don't think about it every day, it we don't think about it every day, it we don't think about it every day, it doesn't have that kind of ever-present doesn't have that kind of ever-present doesn't have that kind of ever-present effect like the smartphone does. effect like the smartphone does. effect like the smartphone does. I think it's underneath a lot of what I think it's underneath a lot of what I think it's underneath a lot of what we're experiencing, and I think you we're experiencing, and I think you we're experiencing, and I think you could easily look at the rest of our could easily look at the rest of our could easily look at the rest of our lifetimes and say lifetimes and say lifetimes and say that will still be a dominant story for that will still be a dominant story for that will still be a dominant story for as long as we live. as long as we live. as long as we live. >> Mike, do you agree with him? Do you >> Mike, do you agree with him? Do you >> Mike, do you agree with him? Do you think that's the number one? think that's the number one? think that's the number one? >> Yeah, no. The reason why for me is >> Yeah, no. The reason why for me is >> Yeah, no. The reason why for me is because it's it deals with because it's it deals with because it's it deals with civilizations.

civilizations. civilizations. Okay? Okay? Okay? What you have is a clash of two very What you have is a clash of two very What you have is a clash of two very different civilizations. And different civilizations. And different civilizations. And beneath them beneath them beneath them is is religion for both. is is religion for both. is is religion for both. Um obviously, the civilizational Um obviously, the civilizational Um obviously, the civilizational religion in continental Europe is religion in continental Europe is religion in continental Europe is more in disrepair and looks different more in disrepair and looks different more in disrepair and looks different than what it does in even the UK or you than what it does in even the UK or you than what it does in even the UK or you know or in North America. But yeah, I know or in North America. But yeah, I know or in North America. But yeah, I mean, you have a clash of civilizations. mean, you have a clash of civilizations. mean, you have a clash of civilizations. This is also the same reason why, you This is also the same reason why, you This is also the same reason why, you know, at numerous points in this top 10 know, at numerous points in this top 10 know, at numerous points in this top 10 list, the list, the list, the East and West and, you know, China and, East and West and, you know, China and, East and West and, you know, China and, you know, you know, and USA piece has you know, you know, and USA piece has you know, you know, and USA piece has come up um a number of times in a come up um a number of times in a come up um a number of times in a different ways because it's different ways because it's different ways because it's civilizational in nature. And so, these civilizational in nature. And so, these civilizational in nature. And so, these things are These are massive trends. You things are These are massive trends. You things are These are massive trends. You know, um one of the things that Con, know, um one of the things that Con, know, um one of the things that Con, that you've talked about um that you've talked about um that you've talked about um at a couple different places is when at a couple different places is when at a couple different places is when we're doing cultural analysis, a lot of we're doing cultural analysis, a lot of we're doing cultural analysis, a lot of cultural analysis happens in kind of the cultural analysis happens in kind of the cultural analysis happens in kind of the the kiddie pool, you know, you know, the kiddie pool, you know, you know, the kiddie pool, you know, you know, shallowness. And what we need is to have shallowness. And what we need is to have shallowness. And what we need is to have a more kind of um a more kind of um a more kind of um uh deep sea approach where we're going uh deep sea approach where we're going uh deep sea approach where we're going all the way down to the seafloor in, you all the way down to the seafloor in, you all the way down to the seafloor in, you know, in very deep bodies of water.

know, in very deep bodies of water. know, in very deep bodies of water. And so for me, you know, it it doesn't And so for me, you know, it it doesn't And so for me, you know, it it doesn't get any more deep than what when we talk get any more deep than what when we talk get any more deep than what when we talk about clashes between civilizations about clashes between civilizations about clashes between civilizations because that is water that is always because that is water that is always because that is water that is always going to be there, you know, and and going to be there, you know, and and going to be there, you know, and and we've got to be able to reckon with how we've got to be able to reckon with how we've got to be able to reckon with how those things impact and, you know, play those things impact and, you know, play those things impact and, you know, play behind the scenes in almost every behind the scenes in almost every behind the scenes in almost every everything that we do. The hard part everything that we do. The hard part everything that we do. The hard part about, you know, civilizational about, you know, civilizational about, you know, civilizational challenge, you know, civilizational challenge, you know, civilizational challenge, you know, civilizational friction is that it's often invisible. friction is that it's often invisible. friction is that it's often invisible. You know, we're not thinking about the You know, we're not thinking about the You know, we're not thinking about the ocean floor. ocean floor. ocean floor. But that water is there and it's really, But that water is there and it's really, But that water is there and it's really, really important and it's some of the really important and it's some of the really important and it's some of the most important cultural analysis that we most important cultural analysis that we most important cultural analysis that we do, and that's why we we do stuff like do, and that's why we we do stuff like do, and that's why we we do stuff like these, you know, this top 10 list for, these, you know, this top 10 list for, these, you know, this top 10 list for, you know, of the last 25 years, because you know, of the last 25 years, because you know, of the last 25 years, because you are not doing cultural analysis you are not doing cultural analysis you are not doing cultural analysis until you get all the way down to the until you get all the way down to the until you get all the way down to the ocean floor. ocean floor. ocean floor. So much of what counts for cultural So much of what counts for cultural So much of what counts for cultural analysis today is basically splashing analysis today is basically splashing analysis today is basically splashing around at the surface of, you know, around at the surface of, you know, around at the surface of, you know, whatever happened or whatever we saw on whatever happened or whatever we saw on whatever happened or whatever we saw on the internet or, you know, whoever got the internet or, you know, whoever got the internet or, you know, whoever got upset with, you know, who about, you upset with, you know, who about, you upset with, you know, who about, you know, something that really isn't news.

know, something that really isn't news. know, something that really isn't news. This is news. 9/11 is news. I will This is news. 9/11 is news. I will This is news. 9/11 is news. I will remember exactly where I was when that remember exactly where I was when that remember exactly where I was when that happened, you know, for the rest of my happened, you know, for the rest of my happened, you know, for the rest of my life. And so, for me, 9/11 is 100% life. And so, for me, 9/11 is 100% life. And so, for me, 9/11 is 100% number one because it's it's number one because it's it's number one because it's it's civilizational in nature. And look, I civilizational in nature. And look, I civilizational in nature. And look, I mean, there's a lot of people who are mean, there's a lot of people who are mean, there's a lot of people who are going to be listening to this who going to be listening to this who going to be listening to this who weren't even weren't even weren't even >> born. Not alive. >> born. Not alive. >> born. Not alive. >> You know, and they have no memory of >> You know, and they have no memory of >> You know, and they have no memory of that. And so, this is very, you know, if that. And so, this is very, you know, if that. And so, this is very, you know, if you're listening to this, like, you you're listening to this, like, you you're listening to this, like, you know, go talk to your mom and dad about, know, go talk to your mom and dad about, know, go talk to your mom and dad about, you know, and your you know, if your you know, and your you know, if your you know, and your you know, if your grandma and grandpa, you know, about grandma and grandpa, you know, about grandma and grandpa, you know, about where they were and what were their where they were and what were their where they were and what were their experiences like. And say for your experiences like. And say for your experiences like. And say for your pastor. pastor. pastor. >> Well, I just a couple things real >> Well, I just a couple things real >> Well, I just a couple things real quickly to wrap up on this one. Um we quickly to wrap up on this one. Um we quickly to wrap up on this one. Um we we've seen these historic Christian we've seen these historic Christian we've seen these historic Christian communities across the Middle East, many communities across the Middle East, many communities across the Middle East, many of them decline, some of them entirely of them decline, some of them entirely of them decline, some of them entirely disappearing. That's a direct disappearing. That's a direct disappearing. That's a direct consequence of 9/11 and, of course, consequence of 9/11 and, of course, consequence of 9/11 and, of course, especially then the US-led invasion of especially then the US-led invasion of especially then the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003, ordered by President Bush. Iraq in 2003, ordered by President Bush. Iraq in 2003, ordered by President Bush. Um Um Um on top of on top of that, you also have on top of on top of that, you also have on top of on top of that, you also have the broader regional instability of the the broader regional instability of the the broader regional instability of the Middle East precipitated by the Iraq Middle East precipitated by the Iraq Middle East precipitated by the Iraq War, leading to things like the Syrian War, leading to things like the Syrian War, leading to things like the Syrian Civil War. The Syrian Civil War is the Civil War. The Syrian Civil War is the Civil War. The Syrian Civil War is the major impetus for the mass migration major impetus for the mass migration major impetus for the mass migration into Europe, leading to the current into Europe, leading to the current into Europe, leading to the current debates about immigration that are being debates about immigration that are being debates about immigration that are being that are become maybe the most pressing that are become maybe the most pressing that are become maybe the most pressing issue right now in politics around the issue right now in politics around the issue right now in politics around the across the West. So, even we could we across the West. So, even we could we across the West. So, even we could we could pull all these different threads could pull all these different threads could pull all these different threads and find other specific things in there and find other specific things in there and find other specific things in there as well.

as well. as well. >> Those are all pretty dark. Is there any >> Those are all pretty dark. Is there any >> Those are all pretty dark. Is there any bright spot or way that you can see God bright spot or way that you can see God bright spot or way that you can see God that worked through 9/11? that worked through 9/11? that worked through 9/11? >> You know what's great about asking about >> You know what's great about asking about >> You know what's great about asking about that, Sarah? that, Sarah? that, Sarah? And I appreciate that. Um And I appreciate that. Um And I appreciate that. Um something that 9/11 has helped me to something that 9/11 has helped me to something that 9/11 has helped me to think through is the nature of divine think through is the nature of divine think through is the nature of divine providence. This is a theological list, providence. This is a theological list, providence. This is a theological list, after all. after all. after all. And I think not only about what God And I think not only about what God And I think not only about what God allows that we see, but also what he allows that we see, but also what he allows that we see, but also what he prevents that we never even know about prevents that we never even know about prevents that we never even know about or never even think about. or never even think about. or never even think about. And you, of course, Sarah, And you, of course, Sarah, And you, of course, Sarah, you you covered the 9/11 attacks and you you covered the 9/11 attacks and you you covered the 9/11 attacks and looking back in an anniversary and it looking back in an anniversary and it looking back in an anniversary and it was the first episode of a recorded was the first episode of a recorded was the first episode of a recorded podcast, right? podcast, right? podcast, right? >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Looking at the the 20th anniversary, is >> Looking at the the 20th anniversary, is >> Looking at the the 20th anniversary, is that right? that right? that right? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, I mean, I think you could see what So, I mean, I think you could see what So, I mean, I think you could see what what I saw, which was what I saw, which was what I saw, which was um um um first of all, there were there were not first of all, there were there were not first of all, there were there were not other attacks. There hasn't been other attacks. There hasn't been other attacks. There hasn't been anything in the United States on that anything in the United States on that anything in the United States on that kind of scale since then.

kind of scale since then. kind of scale since then. Um New York City did not empty. Um New York City did not empty. Um New York City did not empty. Um Um Um in many ways, just in terms of of in many ways, just in terms of of in many ways, just in terms of of day-to-day life, of course, the loss of day-to-day life, of course, the loss of day-to-day life, of course, the loss of life was horrific, though thankfully not life was horrific, though thankfully not life was horrific, though thankfully not as horrific as we all thought it would as horrific as we all thought it would as horrific as we all thought it would be be be at the time. Um still very bad, but in at the time. Um still very bad, but in at the time. Um still very bad, but in some ways COVID-19 ended up being more some ways COVID-19 ended up being more some ways COVID-19 ended up being more long-term disruptive to New York City, long-term disruptive to New York City, long-term disruptive to New York City, cuz that was a ground zero in the United cuz that was a ground zero in the United cuz that was a ground zero in the United States for that. States for that. States for that. Um Um Um but then you you also see, and this is but then you you also see, and this is but then you you also see, and this is why I why I why I I write I write books about history and I write I write books about history and I write I write books about history and I like to think about big ideas and like I like to think about big ideas and like I like to think about big ideas and like to to learn from different leaders to to learn from different leaders to to learn from different leaders through history. through history. through history. Um but when I was working on my on my Um but when I was working on my on my Um but when I was working on my on my book on on Tim Keller that I've, you book on on Tim Keller that I've, you book on on Tim Keller that I've, you know, revised and updated recently for know, revised and updated recently for know, revised and updated recently for paperback re-release, paperback re-release, paperback re-release, I just was able to think very much about I just was able to think very much about I just was able to think very much about how we wouldn't really have known how we wouldn't really have known how we wouldn't really have known his ministry or thought about that his ministry or thought about that his ministry or thought about that ministry without the spotlight that was ministry without the spotlight that was ministry without the spotlight that was provided by provided by 9/11 and the provided by provided by 9/11 and the provided by provided by 9/11 and the rallying across the country um toward rallying across the country um toward rallying across the country um toward the people of New York specifically.

the people of New York specifically. the people of New York specifically. Um and so Um and so Um and so the worst tragedies will the worst tragedies will the worst tragedies will as we often see, they they draw out the as we often see, they they draw out the as we often see, they they draw out the worst in people, but they also bring out worst in people, but they also bring out worst in people, but they also bring out the best. Um they also lead people to the best. Um they also lead people to the best. Um they also lead people to ask really hard and necessary questions. ask really hard and necessary questions. ask really hard and necessary questions. They wake us up from our from our They wake us up from our from our They wake us up from our from our slumbers. And so slumbers. And so slumbers. And so um um um God is is is doing a I mean, we've heard God is is is doing a I mean, we've heard God is is is doing a I mean, we've heard many people say this before. He's doing many people say this before. He's doing many people say this before. He's doing a million things at once and maybe we're a million things at once and maybe we're a million things at once and maybe we're aware of a few of them. aware of a few of them. aware of a few of them. Um and and that's even in including the Um and and that's even in including the Um and and that's even in including the worst worst tragedies, but that's one worst worst tragedies, but that's one worst worst tragedies, but that's one that I would identify. What would you that I would identify. What would you that I would identify. What would you add, Sarah? I mean again, you're the one add, Sarah? I mean again, you're the one add, Sarah? I mean again, you're the one who's done the deep deep dive reporting who's done the deep deep dive reporting who's done the deep deep dive reporting on this. on this. on this. >> I I would add maybe a question because >> I I would add maybe a question because >> I I would add maybe a question because I'm not as familiar with this with this I'm not as familiar with this with this I'm not as familiar with this with this as I should be, but I know after 9/11 as I should be, but I know after 9/11 as I should be, but I know after 9/11 there was kind of a rush um toward New there was kind of a rush um toward New there was kind of a rush um toward New York City with funds, but also with York City with funds, but also with York City with funds, but also with church planters. Um and kind of a church planters. Um and kind of a church planters. Um and kind of a drawing of church planning toward the drawing of church planning toward the drawing of church planning toward the city and I wonder how much that played city and I wonder how much that played city and I wonder how much that played in in in um the next Yeah, I guess there was a um the next Yeah, I guess there was a um the next Yeah, I guess there was a wave, I guess you would call it of of wave, I guess you would call it of of wave, I guess you would call it of of the Acts 29, but but all kinds of people the Acts 29, but but all kinds of people the Acts 29, but but all kinds of people um the SBC creating send send networks.

um the SBC creating send send networks. um the SBC creating send send networks. >> I mean, Redeemer and City to City would >> I mean, Redeemer and City to City would >> I mean, Redeemer and City to City would be primary. be primary. be primary. >> Right. And and it was a time of people >> Right. And and it was a time of people >> Right. And and it was a time of people doing the hardest ministry, which is doing the hardest ministry, which is doing the hardest ministry, which is church planting, in the hardest areas, church planting, in the hardest areas, church planting, in the hardest areas, which are urban centers. which are urban centers. which are urban centers. Um and so it just felt like um Um and so it just felt like um Um and so it just felt like um that played a role there. that played a role there. that played a role there. >> Well, I think you're I think you're >> Well, I think you're I think you're >> Well, I think you're I think you're right about that, Sarah. I I think the right about that, Sarah. I I think the right about that, Sarah. I I think the spotlight on urban America, New York in spotlight on urban America, New York in spotlight on urban America, New York in particular, definitely changed people's particular, definitely changed people's particular, definitely changed people's perceptions. There was a lot more perceptions. There was a lot more perceptions. There was a lot more sympathy toward people who lived there sympathy toward people who lived there sympathy toward people who lived there as opposed to especially what had been as opposed to especially what had been as opposed to especially what had been inherited from the 1980s. inherited from the 1980s. inherited from the 1980s. And so I remember getting to a point And so I remember getting to a point And so I remember getting to a point where people I lived with in other parts where people I lived with in other parts where people I lived with in other parts of the country and my wife and I did of the country and my wife and I did of the country and my wife and I did live out there um outside of New York live out there um outside of New York live out there um outside of New York for the 10-year anniversary, but living for the 10-year anniversary, but living for the 10-year anniversary, but living in other other different places, there in other other different places, there in other other different places, there was a time when if you said, "I'm going was a time when if you said, "I'm going was a time when if you said, "I'm going to go try to start this thing in New to go try to start this thing in New to go try to start this thing in New York." Like when Tim Keller did it in York." Like when Tim Keller did it in York." Like when Tim Keller did it in the 1980s, when people would say, the 1980s, when people would say, the 1980s, when people would say, "Oh, no. "Oh, no. "Oh, no. That's a bad idea. I would never do That's a bad idea. I would never do That's a bad idea. I would never do that." Then all of a sudden, especially that." Then all of a sudden, especially that." Then all of a sudden, especially through the growth of Redeemer, the through the growth of Redeemer, the through the growth of Redeemer, the growth of a lot of those church plants growth of a lot of those church plants growth of a lot of those church plants and Keller's ministry and things like and Keller's ministry and things like and Keller's ministry and things like that, people would then say, "Ah, that, people would then say, "Ah, that, people would then say, "Ah, I'm so jealous of you.

I'm so jealous of you. I'm so jealous of you. You get to be there. You get to go to You get to be there. You get to go to You get to be there. You get to go to these churches. You get to be able to these churches. You get to be able to these churches. You get to be able to see that." And see that." And see that." And And I haven't, um, And I haven't, um, And I haven't, um, I mean, I I've talked about this and and I mean, I I've talked about this and and I mean, I I've talked about this and and written about this as well, but written about this as well, but written about this as well, but I don't think you can separate the Young I don't think you can separate the Young I don't think you can separate the Young Restless Reformed movement from 9/11. Restless Reformed movement from 9/11. Restless Reformed movement from 9/11. I think there was a shift, especially I think there was a shift, especially I think there was a shift, especially among the millennial generation and some among the millennial generation and some among the millennial generation and some of Gen X, that those those who were of Gen X, that those those who were of Gen X, that those those who were in college, just after college, um, in college, just after college, um, in college, just after college, um, those people that you've covered, you those people that you've covered, you those people that you've covered, you know, they were at One Day 2000 with know, they were at One Day 2000 with know, they were at One Day 2000 with John Piper, they're in Tennessee. Um, John Piper, they're in Tennessee. Um, John Piper, they're in Tennessee. Um, uh, they were in school watching these uh, they were in school watching these uh, they were in school watching these things. things. things. There was very much a sense of There was very much a sense of There was very much a sense of seriousness, seriousness, seriousness, of purpose, of God is God and he demands of purpose, of God is God and he demands of purpose, of God is God and he demands everything or I shouldn't be messing everything or I shouldn't be messing everything or I shouldn't be messing around. I mean, you know, just it was around. I mean, you know, just it was around. I mean, you know, just it was just very much a a sobering, I guess is just very much a a sobering, I guess is just very much a a sobering, I guess is the way to way to put it. Um, and so the way to way to put it. Um, and so the way to way to put it. Um, and so then then all these hard questions then then all these hard questions then then all these hard questions coming, you needed a robust theology to coming, you needed a robust theology to coming, you needed a robust theology to be able to respond to them. be able to respond to them. be able to respond to them. Well, of all things Reformed theology Well, of all things Reformed theology Well, of all things Reformed theology will give you, it's a pretty good will give you, it's a pretty good will give you, it's a pretty good theology theology theology there. So, yeah, you can see the rise of there. So, yeah, you can see the rise of there. So, yeah, you can see the rise of the new atheism. You can also see the the new atheism. You can also see the the new atheism. You can also see the rise of the Young Restless Reformed. Um, rise of the Young Restless Reformed. Um, rise of the Young Restless Reformed. Um, you can also see the rise of of New York you can also see the rise of of New York you can also see the rise of of New York City church planting and if we just want City church planting and if we just want City church planting and if we just want to look very narrowly at at the church to look very narrowly at at the church to look very narrowly at at the church scene in New York City, it's very clear.

scene in New York City, it's very clear. scene in New York City, it's very clear. Tim Keller documented this very clear. Tim Keller documented this very clear. Tim Keller documented this very clear. Huge growth of the evangelical Huge growth of the evangelical Huge growth of the evangelical church in the couple decades, um, church in the couple decades, um, church in the couple decades, um, between 9/11 and COVID-19, which of between 9/11 and COVID-19, which of between 9/11 and COVID-19, which of course was really tough for churches in course was really tough for churches in course was really tough for churches in New York. So, New York. So, New York. So, yeah, definitely some positives and do yeah, definitely some positives and do yeah, definitely some positives and do appreciate you bringing us back to that, appreciate you bringing us back to that, appreciate you bringing us back to that, Sarah. Sarah. Sarah. >> I think that's a great place to end us >> I think that's a great place to end us >> I think that's a great place to end us thinking about the providence of God and thinking about the providence of God and thinking about the providence of God and the the hand of God over the last 25 the the hand of God over the last 25 the the hand of God over the last 25 years years years through things we never saw coming through things we never saw coming through things we never saw coming to bring good out of things that looked to bring good out of things that looked to bring good out of things that looked only dark only dark only dark and and to be always and and to be always and and to be always surprising us I guess right of like oh surprising us I guess right of like oh surprising us I guess right of like oh here's the next thing that that's coming here's the next thing that that's coming here's the next thing that that's coming around the bend that he is working out around the bend that he is working out around the bend that he is working out for good for good for good and what an amazing thing that we serve and what an amazing thing that we serve and what an amazing thing that we serve a God who works everything for the good a God who works everything for the good a God who works everything for the good of those who love him. of those who love him. of those who love him. So, thank you so much to those of us So, thank you so much to those of us So, thank you so much to those of us those of you who listened. Thank you so those of you who listened. Thank you so those of you who listened. Thank you so much to Mike and Collin for spending much to Mike and Collin for spending much to Mike and Collin for spending your time chatting with us today. Collin your time chatting with us today. Collin your time chatting with us today. Collin thanks for being on Gospel Bound. thanks for being on Gospel Bound. thanks for being on Gospel Bound. >> Glad to be here. I love it. I'll stick >> Glad to be here. I love it. I'll stick >> Glad to be here. I love it. I'll stick around for a little while longer. Keep around for a little while longer. Keep around for a little while longer. Keep doing this.

doing this. doing this. Thanks, Sarah. Thanks, Mike. Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.