Cultural Apologetics 101 [TGC Podcast Ep. 384]

Well, good afternoon everyone. Uh, thank Well, good afternoon everyone. Uh, thank you for for being here on this uh for you for for being here on this uh for you for for being here on this uh for this panel discussion on cultural this panel discussion on cultural this panel discussion on cultural apologetics. I'm Trevan Wax and we have apologetics. I'm Trevan Wax and we have apologetics. I'm Trevan Wax and we have here Rebecca McGlaughlin. We have uh here Rebecca McGlaughlin. We have uh here Rebecca McGlaughlin. We have uh Keith Plamer and Andrew Wilson. And we Keith Plamer and Andrew Wilson. And we Keith Plamer and Andrew Wilson. And we hope to have a conversation this hope to have a conversation this hope to have a conversation this afternoon about um cultural apologetics afternoon about um cultural apologetics afternoon about um cultural apologetics as a tool for evangelism, for as a tool for evangelism, for as a tool for evangelism, for disciplehip, uh helping people who need disciplehip, uh helping people who need disciplehip, uh helping people who need Jesus, uh creating different avenues and Jesus, uh creating different avenues and Jesus, uh creating different avenues and paths that the spirit can use to bring paths that the spirit can use to bring paths that the spirit can use to bring people to Jesus. Uh but also as a tool people to Jesus. Uh but also as a tool people to Jesus. Uh but also as a tool for disciplehip, helping people who may for disciplehip, helping people who may for disciplehip, helping people who may have grown up in the church or who are have grown up in the church or who are have grown up in the church or who are new in the faith understand just what it new in the faith understand just what it new in the faith understand just what it is about the gospel that makes us stand is about the gospel that makes us stand is about the gospel that makes us stand out in the world. uh so that we can out in the world. uh so that we can out in the world. uh so that we can become disciples who make more disciples become disciples who make more disciples become disciples who make more disciples because we look uh more and more like because we look uh more and more like because we look uh more and more like our savior Jesus Christ who we worship our savior Jesus Christ who we worship our savior Jesus Christ who we worship who we adore and who we want to see who we adore and who we want to see who we adore and who we want to see other people worshiping and adoring. And other people worshiping and adoring. And other people worshiping and adoring. And so uh we're going to kick off this so uh we're going to kick off this so uh we're going to kick off this conversation with the question of what conversation with the question of what conversation with the question of what is cultural apologetics? Apologetics is is cultural apologetics? Apologetics is is cultural apologetics? Apologetics is a word that is has been used for for a word that is has been used for for a word that is has been used for for decades for a long time now about uh decades for a long time now about uh decades for a long time now about uh defending the Christian faith. And so defending the Christian faith. And so defending the Christian faith. And so you're probably aware of what that word you're probably aware of what that word you're probably aware of what that word is. But the first question that comes up is. But the first question that comes up is. But the first question that comes up whenever we are talking about uh uh this whenever we are talking about uh uh this whenever we are talking about uh uh this topic uh or or because all of four of us topic uh or or because all of four of us topic uh or or because all of four of us are uh Keller Center fellows the the uh are uh Keller Center fellows the the uh are uh Keller Center fellows the the uh Keller Center for Cultural apologetics Keller Center for Cultural apologetics Keller Center for Cultural apologetics is uh the question is what's cultural is uh the question is what's cultural is uh the question is what's cultural apologetics and how is it distinguished apologetics and how is it distinguished apologetics and how is it distinguished from traditional apologetics? And so

from traditional apologetics? And so from traditional apologetics? And so Keith I'll start with you just how do Keith I'll start with you just how do Keith I'll start with you just how do you answer that question when someone you answer that question when someone you answer that question when someone asks? asks? asks? When I am asked that question, one of When I am asked that question, one of When I am asked that question, one of the things that I first start out with the things that I first start out with the things that I first start out with is saying that cultural apologetics is saying that cultural apologetics is saying that cultural apologetics isn't really like a it's not an isn't really like a it's not an isn't really like a it's not an alternative to the other approaches as alternative to the other approaches as alternative to the other approaches as though you would never make use of them. though you would never make use of them. though you would never make use of them. So in the course of using cultural So in the course of using cultural So in the course of using cultural apologetics, I might employ some apologetics, I might employ some apologetics, I might employ some classical apologetics or uh some of the classical apologetics or uh some of the classical apologetics or uh some of the other forms, but I think it's a other forms, but I think it's a other forms, but I think it's a different of a difference of emphasis. different of a difference of emphasis. different of a difference of emphasis. And when I think about cultural And when I think about cultural And when I think about cultural apologetics, I think that cultural apologetics, I think that cultural apologetics, I think that cultural apologetics takes seriously apologetics takes seriously apologetics takes seriously um the sociological dimensions of belief um the sociological dimensions of belief um the sociological dimensions of belief formation as well as persuasion. And formation as well as persuasion. And formation as well as persuasion. And what I mean by that is uh a lot of times what I mean by that is uh a lot of times what I mean by that is uh a lot of times apologetics has focused on the apologetics has focused on the apologetics has focused on the individual and his or her intellectual individual and his or her intellectual individual and his or her intellectual framework. We don't want to discard the framework. We don't want to discard the framework. We don't want to discard the intellect, but we recognize that there's intellect, but we recognize that there's intellect, but we recognize that there's more at work in what leads people to more at work in what leads people to more at work in what leads people to believe certain things than simply believe certain things than simply believe certain things than simply intellectual rational considerations.

intellectual rational considerations. intellectual rational considerations. There is a sociological dimension there. There is a sociological dimension there. There is a sociological dimension there. There's a sociological dimension of the There's a sociological dimension of the There's a sociological dimension of the suppression of the truth and suppression of the truth and suppression of the truth and unrighteousness as well. And there is a unrighteousness as well. And there is a unrighteousness as well. And there is a sociological dimension in terms of the sociological dimension in terms of the sociological dimension in terms of the persuasion that we as Christians need to persuasion that we as Christians need to persuasion that we as Christians need to be involved in. And so one of the things be involved in. And so one of the things be involved in. And so one of the things that you hear a lot of us talk about is that you hear a lot of us talk about is that you hear a lot of us talk about is the recognition that there are cultural the recognition that there are cultural the recognition that there are cultural narratives. There are stories that narratives. There are stories that narratives. There are stories that people pick up. They're not formally people pick up. They're not formally people pick up. They're not formally taught them. They catch them. They taught them. They catch them. They taught them. They catch them. They assume them. And then when they accept assume them. And then when they accept assume them. And then when they accept these things as true, they hear the these things as true, they hear the these things as true, they hear the Christian story and they say, "Well, Christian story and they say, "Well, Christian story and they say, "Well, that can't possibly be true because that can't possibly be true because that can't possibly be true because everybody knows X." And cultural everybody knows X." And cultural everybody knows X." And cultural apologetics is both showing what some of apologetics is both showing what some of apologetics is both showing what some of the problems with X are, but also the problems with X are, but also the problems with X are, but also showing how it is that the Christian showing how it is that the Christian showing how it is that the Christian story is actually more uh explanatory story is actually more uh explanatory story is actually more uh explanatory and existentially fulfilling. Anything and existentially fulfilling. Anything and existentially fulfilling. Anything you would add to that, Andrew? What do you would add to that, Andrew? What do you would add to that, Andrew? What do you recommend? I think that's a really you recommend? I think that's a really you recommend? I think that's a really great summary. I think for me, um, we great summary. I think for me, um, we great summary. I think for me, um, we were talking about this at lunch.

were talking about this at lunch. were talking about this at lunch. There's some bits of jargon that get There's some bits of jargon that get There's some bits of jargon that get introduced that when you hear them, you introduced that when you hear them, you introduced that when you hear them, you know that although what they mean is know that although what they mean is know that although what they mean is what Keith just said, they've also got what Keith just said, they've also got what Keith just said, they've also got some other stuff that you assume they some other stuff that you assume they some other stuff that you assume they probably mean as well because they kind probably mean as well because they kind probably mean as well because they kind of they kind of signal to you something. of they kind of signal to you something. of they kind of signal to you something. And to me, if someone says, "I'm And to me, if someone says, "I'm And to me, if someone says, "I'm interested in cultural apologetics." I interested in cultural apologetics." I interested in cultural apologetics." I know what they mean is that's an know what they mean is that's an know what they mean is that's an excellent definition is doing excellent definition is doing excellent definition is doing apologetics at the the defense at the apologetics at the the defense at the apologetics at the the defense at the level of cultural narratives, not just level of cultural narratives, not just level of cultural narratives, not just individual questions. But I suspect that individual questions. But I suspect that individual questions. But I suspect that behind it they're also saying other behind it they're also saying other behind it they're also saying other things like I am I like cultural things like I am I like cultural things like I am I like cultural apologetics means I am committed to apologetics means I am committed to apologetics means I am committed to trying to think critically and trying to think critically and trying to think critically and intelligently about cultural forces that intelligently about cultural forces that intelligently about cultural forces that might not only be what's in the news might not only be what's in the news might not only be what's in the news that day but might be things that have that day but might be things that have that day but might be things that have been building up over 10 50 100 years or been building up over 10 50 100 years or been building up over 10 50 100 years or they might mean I am I'm committed to they might mean I am I'm committed to they might mean I am I'm committed to actually an ironic posture so I'm likely actually an ironic posture so I'm likely actually an ironic posture so I'm likely not to turn things into black and white not to turn things into black and white not to turn things into black and white you know good versus bad this is all the you know good versus bad this is all the you know good versus bad this is all the good that there might be a sort a well good that there might be a sort a well good that there might be a sort a well there's something good about that but there's something good about that but there's something good about that but you got to also bear in mind that that's you got to also bear in mind that that's you got to also bear in mind that that's a strength of this view and we are we a strength of this view and we are we a strength of this view and we are we are right maybe right about that but are right maybe right about that but are right maybe right about that but this thing we're not very strong at this thing we're not very strong at this thing we're not very strong at there's a sort of a nuanced way of there's a sort of a nuanced way of there's a sort of a nuanced way of thinking which obviously is not thinking which obviously is not thinking which obviously is not everyone's cup of tea but I think when everyone's cup of tea but I think when everyone's cup of tea but I think when someone says they're intercultural someone says they're intercultural someone says they're intercultural apologetics I think they're signaling apologetics I think they're signaling apologetics I think they're signaling something beyond what it actually means something beyond what it actually means something beyond what it actually means often and it's more about a way of often and it's more about a way of often and it's more about a way of trying to engage evangelistically with trying to engage evangelistically with trying to engage evangelistically with the people around them which I find I I the people around them which I find I I the people around them which I find I I love it I think it's exactly what I want love it I think it's exactly what I want love it I think it's exactly what I want to do and in my city it just apologetics to do and in my city it just apologetics to do and in my city it just apologetics doesn't work unless you do cultural doesn't work unless you do cultural doesn't work unless you do cultural apologetics I would say that may not be apologetics I would say that may not be apologetics I would say that may not be true everywhere, but so I think I think true everywhere, but so I think I think true everywhere, but so I think I think that's a great definition, but I think that's a great definition, but I think that's a great definition, but I think it sort of there's some vibes with the it sort of there's some vibes with the it sort of there's some vibes with the word as well, which I think can be word as well, which I think can be word as well, which I think can be helpful to identify. Yeah. Yeah, I think

helpful to identify. Yeah. Yeah, I think helpful to identify. Yeah. Yeah, I think ultimately it's a subset of loving our ultimately it's a subset of loving our ultimately it's a subset of loving our neighborh because one of the most loving neighborh because one of the most loving neighborh because one of the most loving things that that we can experience as things that that we can experience as things that that we can experience as human beings is somebody actually taking human beings is somebody actually taking human beings is somebody actually taking the trouble to get to know us and asking the trouble to get to know us and asking the trouble to get to know us and asking us questions about our our life, paying us questions about our our life, paying us questions about our our life, paying attention to what we're saying, being attention to what we're saying, being attention to what we're saying, being kind of curious about our story. And kind of curious about our story. And kind of curious about our story. And there's an extent to which cultural there's an extent to which cultural there's an extent to which cultural apologet apologetics is is doing just apologet apologetics is is doing just apologet apologetics is is doing just that as my brothers have pointed to not that as my brothers have pointed to not that as my brothers have pointed to not only at the individual level but also only at the individual level but also only at the individual level but also sort of more broadly to understand um sort of more broadly to understand um sort of more broadly to understand um what story does this person believe that what story does this person believe that what story does this person believe that they are living in and that's going to they are living in and that's going to they are living in and that's going to include their their own individual sort include their their own individual sort include their their own individual sort of life story. It's also going to of life story. It's also going to of life story. It's also going to include a more overarching stories that include a more overarching stories that include a more overarching stories that they're they're telling or have been they're they're telling or have been they're they're telling or have been told about their um their country or told about their um their country or told about their um their country or their culture or their um their sort of their culture or their um their sort of their culture or their um their sort of socioeconomic class or their socioeconomic class or their socioeconomic class or their intellectual tradition or their intellectual tradition or their intellectual tradition or their political identity like what are they political identity like what are they political identity like what are they telling themselves currently? What what telling themselves currently? What what telling themselves currently? What what story do they think they're living in? story do they think they're living in? story do they think they're living in? Um where does the Christian story sort Um where does the Christian story sort Um where does the Christian story sort of intersect with that? So what pieces of intersect with that? So what pieces of intersect with that? So what pieces of that are things which I as a of that are things which I as a of that are things which I as a Christian can say actually yeah I also Christian can say actually yeah I also Christian can say actually yeah I also believe in justice or I also believe in believe in justice or I also believe in believe in justice or I also believe in in care for the the poor or I also in care for the the poor or I also in care for the the poor or I also believe in in love I also believe in the believe in in love I also believe in the believe in in love I also believe in the value of beauty you name it um but to to value of beauty you name it um but to to value of beauty you name it um but to to help them see where Christianity is is help them see where Christianity is is help them see where Christianity is is both um undergirling often their deepest both um undergirling often their deepest both um undergirling often their deepest moral beliefs it's especially true in moral beliefs it's especially true in moral beliefs it's especially true in folks who sort of been raised in western folks who sort of been raised in western folks who sort of been raised in western contexts but also where the gospel

contexts but also where the gospel contexts but also where the gospel kind of raises the stakes and kind of raises the stakes and kind of raises the stakes and actually introduces them to something actually introduces them to something actually introduces them to something far more glorious than any vision that far more glorious than any vision that far more glorious than any vision that they have currently been given by their they have currently been given by their they have currently been given by their sort of cultural surroundings. Um, so I sort of cultural surroundings. Um, so I sort of cultural surroundings. Um, so I think we, you know, we're sort of think we, you know, we're sort of think we, you know, we're sort of always, it's not about underelling the always, it's not about underelling the always, it's not about underelling the gospel and it's not about synratism and gospel and it's not about synratism and gospel and it's not about synratism and sort of fitting the gospel around the sort of fitting the gospel around the sort of fitting the gospel around the edges of of of culture as if we're sort edges of of of culture as if we're sort edges of of of culture as if we're sort of apologetically and in the um hesitant of apologetically and in the um hesitant of apologetically and in the um hesitant sense trying to sort of be Christian in sense trying to sort of be Christian in sense trying to sort of be Christian in a way that's not offensive. It's I think a way that's not offensive. It's I think a way that's not offensive. It's I think actually kind of understanding the actually kind of understanding the actually kind of understanding the offensiveness of the gospel. Um but offensiveness of the gospel. Um but offensiveness of the gospel. Um but making sure that the offensiveness is making sure that the offensiveness is making sure that the offensiveness is not coming from from us as people who not coming from from us as people who not coming from from us as people who haven't kind of bothered to understand haven't kind of bothered to understand haven't kind of bothered to understand the person we're talking to, but instead the person we're talking to, but instead the person we're talking to, but instead sort of sit alongside them and say, sort of sit alongside them and say, sort of sit alongside them and say, "Hey, like this is the the beautiful "Hey, like this is the the beautiful "Hey, like this is the the beautiful beautiful and offensive message of beautiful and offensive message of beautiful and offensive message of Jesus. Um how does that connect up with Jesus. Um how does that connect up with Jesus. Um how does that connect up with the things that they currently believe the things that they currently believe the things that they currently believe and currently experience of the world?" and currently experience of the world?" and currently experience of the world?" That's really helpful in in thinking That's really helpful in in thinking That's really helpful in in thinking about it being the subset of love for about it being the subset of love for about it being the subset of love for neighbor. I I do think loving your neighbor. I I do think loving your neighbor. I I do think loving your neighbor means caring about the neighbor means caring about the neighbor means caring about the neighborhood. And if the culture around neighborhood. And if the culture around neighborhood. And if the culture around us is influencing us as a society, then us is influencing us as a society, then us is influencing us as a society, then that's not something that we can choose that's not something that we can choose that's not something that we can choose to not pay attention to. One of the to not pay attention to. One of the to not pay attention to. One of the things that a good missionary does, you things that a good missionary does, you things that a good missionary does, you send it, it's funny, we send send it, it's funny, we send send it, it's funny, we send missionaries to other parts of the world missionaries to other parts of the world missionaries to other parts of the world and we expect them to know something and we expect them to know something and we expect them to know something about the culture that they are called about the culture that they are called about the culture that they are called to reach, right? What what do they think to reach, right? What what do they think to reach, right? What what do they think is good? What are their is good? What are their is good? What are their aspirations? What what do they find aspirations? What what do they find aspirations? What what do they find beautiful? Why do they think what they beautiful? Why do they think what they beautiful? Why do they think what they think is true? Not just what they think

think is true? Not just what they think think is true? Not just what they think true, but why would they want this story true, but why would they want this story true, but why would they want this story to be true? These are questions that, to be true? These are questions that, to be true? These are questions that, you know, someone who is trained to you know, someone who is trained to you know, someone who is trained to think like a missionary sent to another think like a missionary sent to another think like a missionary sent to another part of the world will be wrestling with part of the world will be wrestling with part of the world will be wrestling with in 21st century North in 21st century North in 21st century North America, secularizing society. We all America, secularizing society. We all America, secularizing society. We all have to be thinking like missionaries. have to be thinking like missionaries. have to be thinking like missionaries. And so we have to be asking those And so we have to be asking those And so we have to be asking those questions about our neighborhood, about questions about our neighborhood, about questions about our neighborhood, about the the the cult culture around us. Um, the the the cult culture around us. Um, the the the cult culture around us. Um, and so I I think cultural apologetics is and so I I think cultural apologetics is and so I I think cultural apologetics is one tool in the toolbox that helps us do one tool in the toolbox that helps us do one tool in the toolbox that helps us do that. It helps us get not simply into that. It helps us get not simply into that. It helps us get not simply into the the rational defenses of the the rational defenses of the the rational defenses of Christianity, which like Keith said, we Christianity, which like Keith said, we Christianity, which like Keith said, we we do rely on those. We jump into those. we do rely on those. We jump into those. we do rely on those. We jump into those. We use those tools as we can. Rebecca's We use those tools as we can. Rebecca's We use those tools as we can. Rebecca's written on this, Andrew has uh written written on this, Andrew has uh written written on this, Andrew has uh written on this. But we but we recognize too on this. But we but we recognize too on this. But we but we recognize too that the questions about goodness, the that the questions about goodness, the that the questions about goodness, the questions about beauty, uh the questions questions about beauty, uh the questions questions about beauty, uh the questions about the meaning of of life, about the meaning of of life, about the meaning of of life, significance in life, these are also uh significance in life, these are also uh significance in life, these are also uh animating the people around us in a way animating the people around us in a way animating the people around us in a way that we want to to to be attuned to. Uh that we want to to to be attuned to. Uh that we want to to to be attuned to. Uh so I do think one aspect of cultural so I do think one aspect of cultural so I do think one aspect of cultural apologetics is is knowing something apologetics is is knowing something apologetics is is knowing something about the society, but also really about the society, but also really about the society, but also really listening to the person who's in front listening to the person who's in front listening to the person who's in front of you. Um being attuned to the the as of you. Um being attuned to the the as of you. Um being attuned to the the as Rebecca said, the kind of story that Rebecca said, the kind of story that Rebecca said, the kind of story that they're living in. So, I just would love they're living in. So, I just would love they're living in. So, I just would love for for each of you to flesh that out.

for for each of you to flesh that out. for for each of you to flesh that out. What does that look like in day-to-day What does that look like in day-to-day What does that look like in day-to-day life when you're in personal life when you're in personal life when you're in personal conversations with other people? uh it conversations with other people? uh it conversations with other people? uh it can be kind of heady and uh you know to can be kind of heady and uh you know to can be kind of heady and uh you know to talk about theoretically we need to be talk about theoretically we need to be talk about theoretically we need to be studying the sociology of our society studying the sociology of our society studying the sociology of our society and we need to be thinking like and we need to be thinking like and we need to be thinking like missionaries but but what does it look missionaries but but what does it look missionaries but but what does it look like when you're one-on-one or when like when you're one-on-one or when like when you're one-on-one or when you're with a group or when you're you're with a group or when you're you're with a group or when you're talking with someone who may be far from talking with someone who may be far from talking with someone who may be far from the faith or someone who's coming to the faith or someone who's coming to the faith or someone who's coming to church who may think of themselves as a church who may think of themselves as a church who may think of themselves as a Christian or maybe they're a new Christian or maybe they're a new Christian or maybe they're a new believer and yet also need this you know believer and yet also need this you know believer and yet also need this you know to be discipled uh to look more like to be discipled uh to look more like to be discipled uh to look more like Jesus. So I think in I think in part Jesus. So I think in I think in part Jesus. So I think in I think in part you're you're trying to identify the the you're you're trying to identify the the you're you're trying to identify the the yeah the story as Keith was saying the yeah the story as Keith was saying the yeah the story as Keith was saying the story that someone's telling and and story that someone's telling and and story that someone's telling and and what's what's good true beautiful what's what's good true beautiful what's what's good true beautiful desirable all those things and it's not desirable all those things and it's not desirable all those things and it's not like a sort of a special hat you put on like a sort of a special hat you put on like a sort of a special hat you put on while you're in conversation with them while you're in conversation with them while you're in conversation with them going I must now try and do some going I must now try and do some going I must now try and do some cultural apologetics. It's more that you cultural apologetics. It's more that you cultural apologetics. It's more that you by being attuned to the ways in which by being attuned to the ways in which by being attuned to the ways in which people in your culture think and what people in your culture think and what people in your culture think and what certain what certain things people say certain what certain things people say certain what certain things people say are shorthands for, you begin to pick up are shorthands for, you begin to pick up are shorthands for, you begin to pick up on the desires or the good things that on the desires or the good things that on the desires or the good things that people are reaching for in their lives, people are reaching for in their lives, people are reaching for in their lives, even when they're not what they're even when they're not what they're even when they're not what they're actually saying. It's really learning to actually saying. It's really learning to actually saying. It's really learning to listen attentive. I agree with Rebecca.

listen attentive. I agree with Rebecca. listen attentive. I agree with Rebecca. like enabler through listening like enabler through listening like enabler through listening attentively and thinking you're saying attentively and thinking you're saying attentively and thinking you're saying that but I but my guess is that given that but I but my guess is that given that but I but my guess is that given the culture we're in and given other the culture we're in and given other the culture we're in and given other people who say things like that what people who say things like that what people who say things like that what that displays is a desire in you for that displays is a desire in you for that displays is a desire in you for this good thing that the gospel can this good thing that the gospel can this good thing that the gospel can provide and I and I think sometimes it's provide and I and I think sometimes it's provide and I and I think sometimes it's then helping connect that desire to a then helping connect that desire to a then helping connect that desire to a gospel answer which doesn't happen in gospel answer which doesn't happen in gospel answer which doesn't happen in the immediate often doesn't happen the immediate often doesn't happen the immediate often doesn't happen immediately at all but it just it's immediately at all but it just it's immediately at all but it just it's clues and I was thinking about the the clues and I was thinking about the the clues and I was thinking about the the parents at my son's football club you parents at my son's football club you parents at my son's football club you sort of spend a lot of time watching sort of spend a lot of time watching sort of spend a lot of time watching games and then just chatting and then as games and then just chatting and then as games and then just chatting and then as people even sometimes express a a people even sometimes express a a people even sometimes express a a concern about did that Netflix show concern about did that Netflix show concern about did that Netflix show adolescence take off here did people adolescence take off here did people adolescence take off here did people watch that so that was huge in Britain watch that so that was huge in Britain watch that so that was huge in Britain even just a month ago and but even just a month ago and but even just a month ago and but interestingly when you hear people begin interestingly when you hear people begin interestingly when you hear people begin to talk about what was it that resonated to talk about what was it that resonated to talk about what was it that resonated it's just a good example of going okay I it's just a good example of going okay I it's just a good example of going okay I I know the stories that that's reaching I know the stories that that's reaching I know the stories that that's reaching for and some people would react in for and some people would react in for and some people would react in different ways and they would focus in different ways and they would focus in different ways and they would focus in on the the parents or they focus in on on the the parents or they focus in on on the the parents or they focus in on the school or they' focus in on the kids the school or they' focus in on the kids the school or they' focus in on the kids or the manosphere online and you just or the manosphere online and you just or the manosphere online and you just pick up like this is there's anxiety pick up like this is there's anxiety pick up like this is there's anxiety there in you which I can probably there in you which I can probably there in you which I can probably connect to a a good gospel answer.

connect to a a good gospel answer. connect to a a good gospel answer. There's probably a desire a longing There's probably a desire a longing There's probably a desire a longing which has got actually is ultimately which has got actually is ultimately which has got actually is ultimately longing for Christ but you may not see longing for Christ but you may not see longing for Christ but you may not see that yet and so on. And so I think it's that yet and so on. And so I think it's that yet and so on. And so I think it's doing that sort of thing, but by doing that sort of thing, but by doing that sort of thing, but by thinking about it in a narrative way, thinking about it in a narrative way, thinking about it in a narrative way, thinking about what are the good things thinking about what are the good things thinking about what are the good things you're reaching for here that only Jesus you're reaching for here that only Jesus you're reaching for here that only Jesus can supply, you are able to see gospel can supply, you are able to see gospel can supply, you are able to see gospel opportunities where other people might opportunities where other people might opportunities where other people might not noticed they were there because they not noticed they were there because they not noticed they were there because they haven't said tell me how does Jesus the haven't said tell me how does Jesus the haven't said tell me how does Jesus the answer. You know, they people don't talk answer. You know, they people don't talk answer. You know, they people don't talk like at least they don't in in secular like at least they don't in in secular like at least they don't in in secular Britain anyway um very often. And so Britain anyway um very often. And so Britain anyway um very often. And so it's trying to see the things they're it's trying to see the things they're it's trying to see the things they're not saying. Um and that I think is not saying. Um and that I think is not saying. Um and that I think is probably it most helpful contribution to probably it most helpful contribution to probably it most helpful contribution to me in the last few years. me in the last few years. me in the last few years. Something that both Keith and Rebecca, Something that both Keith and Rebecca, Something that both Keith and Rebecca, both of you said with different terms both of you said with different terms both of you said with different terms was um you you both acknowledge that was um you you both acknowledge that was um you you both acknowledge that whenever you're talking with someone whenever you're talking with someone whenever you're talking with someone that there's going to be both overlap that there's going to be both overlap that there's going to be both overlap with a Christian worldview and with a Christian worldview and with a Christian worldview and divergence from the Christian worldview. divergence from the Christian worldview. divergence from the Christian worldview. Why why should we expect that we will Why why should we expect that we will Why why should we expect that we will find points of connection and find points of connection and find points of connection and commonality and overlap with what a commonality and overlap with what a commonality and overlap with what a person even a an unbeliever uh uh what person even a an unbeliever uh uh what person even a an unbeliever uh uh what what they might think there's going to what they might think there's going to what they might think there's going to be some common ground and at the same be some common ground and at the same be some common ground and at the same time recognize there's going to be time recognize there's going to be time recognize there's going to be divergence and why is it important for divergence and why is it important for divergence and why is it important for us to be in our conversations making us to be in our conversations making us to be in our conversations making sure that we are uh attuned to that sure that we are uh attuned to that sure that we are uh attuned to that recognizing that and then shaping our recognizing that and then shaping our recognizing that and then shaping our our gospel presentation our apologetics our gospel presentation our apologetics our gospel presentation our apologetics accordingly We should expect areas of We should expect areas of commonality because of commonality because of commonality because of revelation. Uh because we are the

revelation. Uh because we are the revelation. Uh because we are the creatures of God. We're imagebearers of creatures of God. We're imagebearers of creatures of God. We're imagebearers of God. We're living as uh Francis Schaefer God. We're living as uh Francis Schaefer God. We're living as uh Francis Schaefer said in God's world. And even though said in God's world. And even though said in God's world. And even though sinfully we seek to hold down truth sinfully we seek to hold down truth sinfully we seek to hold down truth about God, we cannot do it completely. about God, we cannot do it completely. about God, we cannot do it completely. We cannot do it exhaustively or We cannot do it exhaustively or We cannot do it exhaustively or successfully. There are there are things successfully. There are there are things successfully. There are there are things that we can't help but that we can't help but that we can't help but knowing and that's also due to God's knowing and that's also due to God's knowing and that's also due to God's common grace. I mean it God is gracious common grace. I mean it God is gracious common grace. I mean it God is gracious in that even though we are by nature in that even though we are by nature in that even though we are by nature rebellious against him. He restrains sin rebellious against him. He restrains sin rebellious against him. He restrains sin from having its full devastating effect. from having its full devastating effect. from having its full devastating effect. So that there are things that we can't So that there are things that we can't So that there are things that we can't fully distort that we can't fully escape fully distort that we can't fully escape fully distort that we can't fully escape the knowledge of the truth. And that the knowledge of the truth. And that the knowledge of the truth. And that means not just knowledge of the truth, means not just knowledge of the truth, means not just knowledge of the truth, but as Andrew was saying, that there are but as Andrew was saying, that there are but as Andrew was saying, that there are good desires. There are things that I good desires. There are things that I good desires. There are things that I should expect to find in non-Christians should expect to find in non-Christians should expect to find in non-Christians that um are commendable, that are that um are commendable, that are that um are commendable, that are praiseworthy in terms of what it is that praiseworthy in terms of what it is that praiseworthy in terms of what it is that they are desiring, whether it's justice, they are desiring, whether it's justice, they are desiring, whether it's justice, whether it is love. Now, surely there's whether it is love. Now, surely there's whether it is love. Now, surely there's going to be some distorting effect, but going to be some distorting effect, but going to be some distorting effect, but I need to be looking for that. And there I need to be looking for that. And there I need to be looking for that. And there are things that we need to challenge are things that we need to challenge are things that we need to challenge because of the reality of sin and our because of the reality of sin and our because of the reality of sin and our proness to reinterpret ourselves in the proness to reinterpret ourselves in the proness to reinterpret ourselves in the world in such a way that the true author world in such a way that the true author world in such a way that the true author of life is no longer the authority of

of life is no longer the authority of of life is no longer the authority of its meaning. And I I think the things its meaning. And I I think the things its meaning. And I I think the things that we run the the risk of as either that we run the the risk of as either that we run the the risk of as either being so being so being so challenging that we fail to acknowledge challenging that we fail to acknowledge challenging that we fail to acknowledge where there are things that are worthy where there are things that are worthy where there are things that are worthy of commendation that are good or in our of commendation that are good or in our of commendation that are good or in our seeking of um the commonality we're seeking of um the commonality we're seeking of um the commonality we're fearful of challenging. And I I liked fearful of challenging. And I I liked fearful of challenging. And I I liked what uh Rebecca had to say about the um what uh Rebecca had to say about the um what uh Rebecca had to say about the um the the beautiful offense of of Christ. the the beautiful offense of of Christ. the the beautiful offense of of Christ. We there is a there's a beauty and We there is a there's a beauty and We there is a there's a beauty and there's an offense. And if we seek to there's an offense. And if we seek to there's an offense. And if we seek to focus on one at the expense of the focus on one at the expense of the focus on one at the expense of the other, we are not doing justice to the other, we are not doing justice to the other, we are not doing justice to the full truth. full truth. full truth. It's so interesting in Acts 17 when Paul It's so interesting in Acts 17 when Paul It's so interesting in Acts 17 when Paul is in Athens and and Luke tells us that is in Athens and and Luke tells us that is in Athens and and Luke tells us that Paul is really grieved by the idol Paul is really grieved by the idol Paul is really grieved by the idol worship that he sees. So his sort of to worship that he sees. So his sort of to worship that he sees. So his sort of to some extent his first reaction to the some extent his first reaction to the some extent his first reaction to the culture around him is like, "Oh, this culture around him is like, "Oh, this culture around him is like, "Oh, this hurts my heart because of the sin that hurts my heart because of the sin that hurts my heart because of the sin that I'm seeing."

I'm seeing." I'm seeing." And then we see him, you know, he's sort And then we see him, you know, he's sort And then we see him, you know, he's sort of scouting around and he finds this of scouting around and he finds this of scouting around and he finds this statue to or this altar to an unknown statue to or this altar to an unknown statue to or this altar to an unknown god. And and he tells the Athenians like god. And and he tells the Athenians like god. And and he tells the Athenians like what you guys are worshiping is unknown. what you guys are worshiping is unknown. what you guys are worshiping is unknown. I'm going to tell I'm going to tell you I'm going to tell I'm going to tell you I'm going to tell I'm going to tell you about that god. And and then he explains about that god. And and then he explains about that god. And and then he explains to them like you you think you're to them like you you think you're to them like you you think you're worshiping all these gods through all worshiping all these gods through all worshiping all these gods through all these altars and actually there is only these altars and actually there is only these altars and actually there is only one god and he is only worshiped he's one god and he is only worshiped he's one god and he is only worshiped he's not worshiped in this in this way at not worshiped in this in this way at not worshiped in this in this way at all. He doesn't need anything from you. all. He doesn't need anything from you. all. He doesn't need anything from you. And then interestingly, Paul quotes from And then interestingly, Paul quotes from And then interestingly, Paul quotes from one of their own one of their own one of their own poets. And and that is just an poets. And and that is just an poets. And and that is just an interesting model for me because it can interesting model for me because it can interesting model for me because it can be it can be easy for us to think as be it can be easy for us to think as be it can be easy for us to think as Christians, okay, today we're we're Christians, okay, today we're we're Christians, okay, today we're we're living in a culture that is, you know, living in a culture that is, you know, living in a culture that is, you know, many ways quite pagan actually, um with many ways quite pagan actually, um with many ways quite pagan actually, um with all sorts of idols being woripped, all sorts of idols being woripped, all sorts of idols being woripped, whether sort of explicitly or or whether sort of explicitly or or whether sort of explicitly or or implicitly. And we can spend our time implicitly. And we can spend our time implicitly. And we can spend our time mostly being grieved by that, which is mostly being grieved by that, which is mostly being grieved by that, which is not an inappropriate response for us to not an inappropriate response for us to not an inappropriate response for us to to have as well. Um but we can sort of to have as well. Um but we can sort of to have as well. Um but we can sort of be so busy being greed by it or or be so busy being greed by it or or be so busy being greed by it or or trying to sort of start our um idol trying to sort of start our um idol trying to sort of start our um idol demolition campaign, you know, going demolition campaign, you know, going demolition campaign, you know, going around the altars with our with a sort around the altars with our with a sort around the altars with our with a sort of sledgehammers that we might actually of sledgehammers that we might actually of sledgehammers that we might actually be missing the opportunities to oh, be missing the opportunities to oh, be missing the opportunities to oh, let's read some of the poetry that's let's read some of the poetry that's let's read some of the poetry that's being written. Let's listen to some of being written. Let's listen to some of being written. Let's listen to some of the songs that are being sung by this the songs that are being sung by this the songs that are being sung by this culture that's shaping the hearts and culture that's shaping the hearts and culture that's shaping the hearts and minds of the people around us. And let's minds of the people around us. And let's minds of the people around us. And let's let's listen for what they're longing let's listen for what they're longing let's listen for what they're longing for and what they're hurting about and for and what they're hurting about and for and what they're hurting about and where they're feeling disappointed and where they're feeling disappointed and where they're feeling disappointed and where they're feeling hope, where where they're feeling hope, where where they're feeling hope, where they're placing their they're placing their they're placing their trust and let's engage kind of through

trust and let's engage kind of through trust and let's engage kind of through that to help them see that actually the that to help them see that actually the that to help them see that actually the Lord of heaven and earth is is not Lord of heaven and earth is is not Lord of heaven and earth is is not worshiped in those ways and that he's worshiped in those ways and that he's worshiped in those ways and that he's revealed himself through the person of revealed himself through the person of revealed himself through the person of Jesus Christ. Um, Jesus Christ. Um, Jesus Christ. Um, I'm the the word apologetics has always I'm the the word apologetics has always I'm the the word apologetics has always been interesting to me because I think been interesting to me because I think been interesting to me because I think in some people's minds apologetics has in some people's minds apologetics has in some people's minds apologetics has meant um trying to get people to to a meant um trying to get people to to a meant um trying to get people to to a sort of generic understanding of God. sort of generic understanding of God. sort of generic understanding of God. Like maybe sort of move them from Like maybe sort of move them from Like maybe sort of move them from atheism to like a a sort of store brand atheism to like a a sort of store brand atheism to like a a sort of store brand the theism or godism or something, you the theism or godism or something, you the theism or godism or something, you know, and and maybe from there to say, know, and and maybe from there to say, know, and and maybe from there to say, "Oh, well, perhaps there's there's room "Oh, well, perhaps there's there's room "Oh, well, perhaps there's there's room for the specific claims of for the specific claims of for the specific claims of Christianity." I'd almost want to sort Christianity." I'd almost want to sort Christianity." I'd almost want to sort of barge through all of those things and of barge through all of those things and of barge through all of those things and say actually let's go quickly to the say actually let's go quickly to the say actually let's go quickly to the gospel because I think Jesus gives us gospel because I think Jesus gives us gospel because I think Jesus gives us the most satisfying apologetic answers the most satisfying apologetic answers the most satisfying apologetic answers to all the questions whether it's sort to all the questions whether it's sort to all the questions whether it's sort of sexuality or suffering or or science of sexuality or suffering or or science of sexuality or suffering or or science or whatever whatever you want. Actually, or whatever whatever you want. Actually, or whatever whatever you want. Actually, if we if we're not going to the the if we if we're not going to the the if we if we're not going to the the gospel, we're probably not going to be gospel, we're probably not going to be gospel, we're probably not going to be helping each other other people a whole helping each other other people a whole helping each other other people a whole lot. And when we do, especially in our lot. And when we do, especially in our lot. And when we do, especially in our particular current cultural moment, it's particular current cultural moment, it's particular current cultural moment, it's often completely new news to people. Um, often completely new news to people. Um, often completely new news to people. Um, like it's it's not uh primarily, at like it's it's not uh primarily, at like it's it's not uh primarily, at least where I'm in Cambridge, least where I'm in Cambridge, least where I'm in Cambridge, Massachusetts. It's not primarily a Massachusetts. It's not primarily a Massachusetts. It's not primarily a world where all the non-believers around world where all the non-believers around world where all the non-believers around me sort of basically know what the me sort of basically know what the me sort of basically know what the Christian claims are and they've done Christian claims are and they've done Christian claims are and they've done some research and found them to be some research and found them to be some research and found them to be wanting. A lot of them just have have no wanting. A lot of them just have have no wanting. A lot of them just have have no idea. And so I can have the the idea. And so I can have the the idea. And so I can have the the privilege of introducing them to what privilege of introducing them to what privilege of introducing them to what the gospel claims are. Um, and they're the gospel claims are. Um, and they're the gospel claims are. Um, and they're going to be offensive. Like, let's not

going to be offensive. Like, let's not going to be offensive. Like, let's not pretend that Christianity isn't pretend that Christianity isn't pretend that Christianity isn't offensive. It's actually much more offensive. It's actually much more offensive. It's actually much more offensive than most of our friends offensive than most of our friends offensive than most of our friends realize. You know, if they think realize. You know, if they think realize. You know, if they think Christian sexual ethics is offensive, Christian sexual ethics is offensive, Christian sexual ethics is offensive, they probably haven't actually heard the they probably haven't actually heard the they probably haven't actually heard the gospel, which says you and I were so gospel, which says you and I were so gospel, which says you and I were so bad. We needed Jesus to die for us, and bad. We needed Jesus to die for us, and bad. We needed Jesus to die for us, and we are headed for hell apart from him. we are headed for hell apart from him. we are headed for hell apart from him. And he's the only savior. He's the only And he's the only savior. He's the only And he's the only savior. He's the only savior. I mean, it's the Christian savior. I mean, it's the Christian savior. I mean, it's the Christian message is incredibly message is incredibly message is incredibly offensive, but it's also incredibly offensive, but it's also incredibly offensive, but it's also incredibly beautiful. And if they see if they hear beautiful. And if they see if they hear beautiful. And if they see if they hear us saying those words while also showing us saying those words while also showing us saying those words while also showing the radical kind of welcome that the radical kind of welcome that the radical kind of welcome that Christians are called to show to to Christians are called to show to to Christians are called to show to to those around them, the love that they're those around them, the love that they're those around them, the love that they're called to show to not only neighbors, called to show to not only neighbors, called to show to not only neighbors, but also to their enemies, then that but also to their enemies, then that but also to their enemies, then that offensiveness seems like weird in a way offensiveness seems like weird in a way offensiveness seems like weird in a way that's actually potentially compelling. that's actually potentially compelling. that's actually potentially compelling. The strangeness stands out. Yeah. I one The strangeness stands out. Yeah. I one The strangeness stands out. Yeah. I one a construct that's been helpful for me a construct that's been helpful for me a construct that's been helpful for me to think through on this has been uh to think through on this has been uh to think through on this has been uh putting longings and lies and light in putting longings and lies and light in putting longings and lies and light in the light of the gospel. So longings um the light of the gospel. So longings um the light of the gospel. So longings um you know what are the the deeper you know what are the the deeper you know what are the the deeper longings that um that we can affirm that longings that um that we can affirm that longings that um that we can affirm that we can say are are true or god-given you we can say are are true or god-given you we can say are are true or god-given you know the god-shaped hole that that know the god-shaped hole that that know the god-shaped hole that that people will talk about uh but then what people will talk about uh but then what people will talk about uh but then what are the lies that uh uh that people will are the lies that uh uh that people will are the lies that uh uh that people will believe in pursuit of fulfilling those believe in pursuit of fulfilling those believe in pursuit of fulfilling those deeper longings. Right? um you know, we deeper longings. Right? um you know, we deeper longings. Right? um you know, we can go back and look at through church can go back and look at through church can go back and look at through church history, and we'll discuss this in just history, and we'll discuss this in just history, and we'll discuss this in just a second, that this isn't really a new a second, that this isn't really a new a second, that this isn't really a new thing, but that uh in some sense, um thing, but that uh in some sense, um thing, but that uh in some sense, um believing believing believing falsehoods, wrong falsehoods, wrong falsehoods, wrong worldviews, sinful actions. Um we look

worldviews, sinful actions. Um we look worldviews, sinful actions. Um we look at these as disordered loves that our at these as disordered loves that our at these as disordered loves that our desires have been distorted and our our desires have been distorted and our our desires have been distorted and our our loves have been disordered. And so that loves have been disordered. And so that loves have been disordered. And so that uh we're we're reaching for God, but uh we're we're reaching for God, but uh we're we're reaching for God, but we're we're we're often believing in in we're we're we're often believing in in we're we're we're often believing in in in all kinds of lies as we do. So I I do in all kinds of lies as we do. So I I do in all kinds of lies as we do. So I I do think the temptation sometimes among think the temptation sometimes among think the temptation sometimes among Christians is to to to to fall off on Christians is to to to to fall off on Christians is to to to to fall off on one side or the other the way Keith one side or the other the way Keith one side or the other the way Keith mentioned earlier to where you can be mentioned earlier to where you can be mentioned earlier to where you can be all so just affirming of all the all so just affirming of all the all so just affirming of all the longings that people have and finding longings that people have and finding longings that people have and finding common ground and not really not not common ground and not really not not common ground and not really not not really ever wanting to offend or to really ever wanting to offend or to really ever wanting to offend or to point out where uh of the exposing some point out where uh of the exposing some point out where uh of the exposing some of those lies that you wind up becoming of those lies that you wind up becoming of those lies that you wind up becoming what you know what I call complimentary what you know what I call complimentary what you know what I call complimentary Christians just gushing out compliments Christians just gushing out compliments Christians just gushing out compliments constantly. ly and just uh just constantly. ly and just uh just constantly. ly and just uh just basically telling the world what the basically telling the world what the basically telling the world what the world wants to hear. But then there are world wants to hear. But then there are world wants to hear. But then there are some Christians I think who are really some Christians I think who are really some Christians I think who are really good at spotting lies at finding good at spotting lies at finding good at spotting lies at finding distortions and who will I call them lie distortions and who will I call them lie distortions and who will I call them lie detectors. You know they can detect the detectors. You know they can detect the detectors. You know they can detect the lies and sometimes they get the name lies and sometimes they get the name lies and sometimes they get the name discernment which I I I don't want to discernment which I I I don't want to discernment which I I I don't want to give that word discernment to only those give that word discernment to only those give that word discernment to only those believers that can find the lies because believers that can find the lies because believers that can find the lies because I think discernment is also discerning I think discernment is also discerning I think discernment is also discerning what's good not just what's bad. true what's good not just what's bad. true what's good not just what's bad. true discernment, the the God-given, discernment, the the God-given, discernment, the the God-given, spirit-given gift of discernment is is spirit-given gift of discernment is is spirit-given gift of discernment is is about discerning the good, the about discerning the good, the about discerning the good, the beautiful, not just what's false or or beautiful, not just what's false or or beautiful, not just what's false or or or what's wrong. And so I think by by or what's wrong. And so I think by by or what's wrong. And so I think by by framing it in the light of the gospel in framing it in the light of the gospel in framing it in the light of the gospel in this way, um if if we can if we can yes this way, um if if we can if we can yes this way, um if if we can if we can yes expose the lies, but in a way that shows

expose the lies, but in a way that shows expose the lies, but in a way that shows the the the gospel exposes lies, but the the the gospel exposes lies, but the the the gospel exposes lies, but shows how those deeper longings are shows how those deeper longings are shows how those deeper longings are fulfilled in Jesus, then we're able to fulfilled in Jesus, then we're able to fulfilled in Jesus, then we're able to to to show how what people really want, to to show how what people really want, to to show how what people really want, what they really want deep down is what they really want deep down is what they really want deep down is Jesus. And we can show that how that Jesus. And we can show that how that Jesus. And we can show that how that fulfillment comes about only in him and fulfillment comes about only in him and fulfillment comes about only in him and not in the the falsehoods or the the not in the the falsehoods or the the not in the the falsehoods or the the lies that they that they may believe. Um lies that they that they may believe. Um lies that they that they may believe. Um Rebecca mentioned uh the Apostle Paul, Rebecca mentioned uh the Apostle Paul, Rebecca mentioned uh the Apostle Paul, but Andrew, can can you speak to a but Andrew, can can you speak to a but Andrew, can can you speak to a little bit of the history of this? I little bit of the history of this? I little bit of the history of this? I mean the some people may the term mean the some people may the term mean the some people may the term cultural apologetics seems new and cultural apologetics seems new and cultural apologetics seems new and there's a sense in which all apologetics there's a sense in which all apologetics there's a sense in which all apologetics is cultural. Uh because we're never is cultural. Uh because we're never is cultural. Uh because we're never doing disciplehip, defending the faith, doing disciplehip, defending the faith, doing disciplehip, defending the faith, evangelism in a vacuum. We're always in evangelism in a vacuum. We're always in evangelism in a vacuum. We're always in a cultural context. But um but what but a cultural context. But um but what but a cultural context. But um but what but why is this approach and kind of what why is this approach and kind of what why is this approach and kind of what we've been talking about how how have we we've been talking about how how have we we've been talking about how how have we seen it throughout church history? Well, seen it throughout church history? Well, seen it throughout church history? Well, as you say, I think you've obviously you as you say, I think you've obviously you as you say, I think you've obviously you clearly see it in the Bible. I think the clearly see it in the Bible. I think the clearly see it in the Bible. I think the text Rebecca's quoted is the one I would text Rebecca's quoted is the one I would text Rebecca's quoted is the one I would go to if I had to try and do a biblical go to if I had to try and do a biblical go to if I had to try and do a biblical defense of it. Um and so you see it in defense of it. Um and so you see it in defense of it. Um and so you see it in Acts 17. I think you see a lot of it Acts 17. I think you see a lot of it Acts 17. I think you see a lot of it with the particularly the Greek speaking with the particularly the Greek speaking with the particularly the Greek speaking apologists in the beginning in the apologists in the beginning in the apologists in the beginning in the second century where they're really second century where they're really second century where they're really trying to get into how do Greek people trying to get into how do Greek people trying to get into how do Greek people think and how do we make sure that it's think and how do we make sure that it's think and how do we make sure that it's as clear as possible that Jesus is the as clear as possible that Jesus is the as clear as possible that Jesus is the fulfillment of their longings. You find fulfillment of their longings. You find fulfillment of their longings. You find it actually with the Jewish apologetics it actually with the Jewish apologetics it actually with the Jewish apologetics as well, Justin Mart, that kind of And as well, Justin Mart, that kind of And as well, Justin Mart, that kind of And then and then I think the the classic then and then I think the the classic then and then I think the the classic exponent probably Augustine or at least exponent probably Augustine or at least exponent probably Augustine or at least for many of us would he be probably the for many of us would he be probably the for many of us would he be probably the most influential example uh for many of most influential example uh for many of most influential example uh for many of us I think because the city of God which us I think because the city of God which us I think because the city of God which in many ways is the most influential in many ways is the most influential in many ways is the most influential book written by anybody in the world for book written by anybody in the world for book written by anybody in the world for the next thousand years like absolutely

the next thousand years like absolutely the next thousand years like absolutely extraordinary uh it significance and and extraordinary uh it significance and and extraordinary uh it significance and and that again is just a a huge in what we that again is just a a huge in what we that again is just a a huge in what we would now what by Keith's definition would now what by Keith's definition would now what by Keith's definition Augustine is doing exactly what you said Augustine is doing exactly what you said Augustine is doing exactly what you said which is trying to say here's the which is trying to say here's the which is trying to say here's the stories that people are telling here's stories that people are telling here's stories that people are telling here's the ways in which that Jesus actually the ways in which that Jesus actually the ways in which that Jesus actually fulfills the the telos of Rome, all that fulfills the the telos of Rome, all that fulfills the the telos of Rome, all that kind of thing. Um, and all the ways in kind of thing. Um, and all the ways in kind of thing. Um, and all the ways in which people would distort the story and which people would distort the story and which people would distort the story and all the lies they believe, the the all the lies they believe, the the all the lies they believe, the the longings, all that stuff. He's he's longings, all that stuff. He's he's longings, all that stuff. He's he's Augustine is where we've got it all from Augustine is where we've got it all from Augustine is where we've got it all from really. And then I think it continues. I really. And then I think it continues. I really. And then I think it continues. I think it's less needed in a way in a think it's less needed in a way in a think it's less needed in a way in a very holistically Christian context like very holistically Christian context like very holistically Christian context like a lot of medieval Europe. I think it is a lot of medieval Europe. I think it is a lot of medieval Europe. I think it is less obviously needed. And so you get less obviously needed. And so you get less obviously needed. And so you get less of it in the sort of high medieval less of it in the sort of high medieval less of it in the sort of high medieval period, I would say. And then actually period, I would say. And then actually period, I would say. And then actually in the Protestant reformers who've got in the Protestant reformers who've got in the Protestant reformers who've got often other things they're mainly often other things they're mainly often other things they're mainly debating about. But as soon as society debating about. But as soon as society debating about. But as soon as society begins to move towards a post-Christian begins to move towards a post-Christian begins to move towards a post-Christian setting, you get it rising up more. And setting, you get it rising up more. And setting, you get it rising up more. And I think particularly the cultural of the I think particularly the cultural of the I think particularly the cultural of the cultural apologetics becomes more needed cultural apologetics becomes more needed cultural apologetics becomes more needed when people have got used to doing when people have got used to doing when people have got used to doing apologetics in a very I don't know. I'm apologetics in a very I don't know. I'm apologetics in a very I don't know. I'm going to I'm going to probably offend going to I'm going to probably offend going to I'm going to probably offend people, but a dry propositional here's people, but a dry propositional here's people, but a dry propositional here's how you prove it. Here's the here's the how you prove it. Here's the here's the how you prove it. Here's the here's the premise. is then and it all feels like a premise. is then and it all feels like a premise. is then and it all feels like a maths lesson kind of way of doing maths lesson kind of way of doing maths lesson kind of way of doing apologetics which I've done this loads apologetics which I've done this loads apologetics which I've done this loads and you get to the end of it and you've and you get to the end of it and you've and you get to the end of it and you've basically got a brilliant syllogism and basically got a brilliant syllogism and basically got a brilliant syllogism and the other guy goes yeah just don't the other guy goes yeah just don't the other guy goes yeah just don't really care and you're like oh no what really care and you're like oh no what really care and you're like oh no what do I do now cuz they didn't tell me how do I do now cuz they didn't tell me how do I do now cuz they didn't tell me how to do that like I can prove it but it no to do that like I can prove it but it no to do that like I can prove it but it no one wants it to be true so they're just one wants it to be true so they're just one wants it to be true so they're just not engaging and I think probably the not engaging and I think probably the not engaging and I think probably the the person who's the most helpful the person who's the most helpful the person who's the most helpful exponent of that in in church history is

exponent of that in in church history is exponent of that in in church history is plays Pascal who has this line that we plays Pascal who has this line that we plays Pascal who has this line that we many of probably all of us have quoted many of probably all of us have quoted many of probably all of us have quoted many times uh which is what you want to many times uh which is what you want to many times uh which is what you want to do when you got someone is is first of do when you got someone is is first of do when you got someone is is first of all you've got to get them to believe all you've got to get them to believe all you've got to get them to believe Christianity is worthy of respect and Christianity is worthy of respect and Christianity is worthy of respect and then you've got to make people wish it then you've got to make people wish it then you've got to make people wish it was true and only then can you show that was true and only then can you show that was true and only then can you show that it is if you if people don't want it to it is if you if people don't want it to it is if you if people don't want it to be true they're just not going to listen be true they're just not going to listen be true they're just not going to listen and I think the more post-Christian or and I think the more post-Christian or and I think the more post-Christian or secular your culture is and mine is very secular your culture is and mine is very secular your culture is and mine is very uh the more you notice that they just go uh the more you notice that they just go uh the more you notice that they just go let me give you some reasons why if I let me give you some reasons why if I let me give you some reasons why if I could just get you to accept these could just get you to accept these could just get you to accept these premises this conclusion follows G there premises this conclusion follows G there premises this conclusion follows G there erggo Jesus is alive and they're like erggo Jesus is alive and they're like erggo Jesus is alive and they're like shut up I don't care and you're like so shut up I don't care and you're like so shut up I don't care and you're like so you have to do the cultural thing which you have to do the cultural thing which you have to do the cultural thing which is oh there's a deeper thing going on is oh there's a deeper thing going on is oh there's a deeper thing going on here and so I think in many ways that here and so I think in many ways that here and so I think in many ways that has always been what the best apologists has always been what the best apologists has always been what the best apologists in history have done but we're using the in history have done but we're using the in history have done but we're using the language of cultural to try and language of cultural to try and language of cultural to try and distinguish it from the more distinguish it from the more distinguish it from the more propositional propositional propositional anti-narrative deductive kind of anti-narrative deductive kind of anti-narrative deductive kind of approach which is not it has its place I approach which is not it has its place I approach which is not it has its place I think and in particularly in fortifying think and in particularly in fortifying think and in particularly in fortifying Christians but it's very ineffective at Christians but it's very ineffective at Christians but it's very ineffective at speaking to the heart of people who are speaking to the heart of people who are speaking to the heart of people who are dead in their sins I would dead in their sins I would dead in their sins I would Yeah, I wanted to follow up on something Yeah, I wanted to follow up on something Yeah, I wanted to follow up on something that um Andrew said all of us have been that um Andrew said all of us have been that um Andrew said all of us have been using the the term story narrative. Um, using the the term story narrative. Um, using the the term story narrative. Um, you did say at one point world view and you did say at one point world view and you did say at one point world view and I just want to maybe put at ease some by I just want to maybe put at ease some by I just want to maybe put at ease some by story we don't necessarily mean fiction story we don't necessarily mean fiction story we don't necessarily mean fiction especially when we talk about the especially when we talk about the especially when we talk about the Christian story but I think that our Christian story but I think that our Christian story but I think that our focus on world

focus on world focus on world view I could get in trouble. I I think view I could get in trouble. I I think view I could get in trouble. I I think that our our focus on worldview has that our our focus on worldview has that our our focus on worldview has oriented us to focus maybe oriented us to focus maybe oriented us to focus maybe disproportionately on the propositional disproportionately on the propositional disproportionately on the propositional and the intellectual at the expense of and the intellectual at the expense of and the intellectual at the expense of the imaginative and the affective. the imaginative and the affective. the imaginative and the affective. Whereas a story, if you think about a Whereas a story, if you think about a Whereas a story, if you think about a story, a story is offering you story, a story is offering you story, a story is offering you propositional content. It is making some propositional content. It is making some propositional content. It is making some claims, but it's doing more than that. claims, but it's doing more than that. claims, but it's doing more than that. And I think if we're only thinking in And I think if we're only thinking in And I think if we're only thinking in terms of world view, then when we're terms of world view, then when we're terms of world view, then when we're sitting across from someone, we're only sitting across from someone, we're only sitting across from someone, we're only going to be asking the question, what's going to be asking the question, what's going to be asking the question, what's their world their world their world view? And we could miss what are their view? And we could miss what are their view? And we could miss what are their longings? But if you think in terms of longings? But if you think in terms of longings? But if you think in terms of what is the narrative that they're what is the narrative that they're what is the narrative that they're assuming, what story do they think assuming, what story do they think assuming, what story do they think they're in? They're they're living by. I they're in? They're they're living by. I they're in? They're they're living by. I think that that is going to broaden our think that that is going to broaden our think that that is going to broaden our listening and our observation beyond yes listening and our observation beyond yes listening and our observation beyond yes I am concerned about what do they I am concerned about what do they I am concerned about what do they believe but it it's more than that and believe but it it's more than that and believe but it it's more than that and in my own thinking about the gospel I I in my own thinking about the gospel I I in my own thinking about the gospel I I don't want it to be for my own Christian don't want it to be for my own Christian don't want it to be for my own Christian life simply checking off the right boxes life simply checking off the right boxes life simply checking off the right boxes so that I passed the the gospel test but so that I passed the the gospel test but so that I passed the the gospel test but I I want to I I want to I I want to be I I want to be captivated by and I be I I want to be captivated by and I be I I want to be captivated by and I want to live in terms of this narrative want to live in terms of this narrative want to live in terms of this narrative that the scriptures are portraying and

that the scriptures are portraying and that the scriptures are portraying and and so I think that that's that's and so I think that that's that's and so I think that that's that's another emphasis of cultural another emphasis of cultural another emphasis of cultural apologetics. There is this narratival apologetics. There is this narratival apologetics. There is this narratival um focus. I I felt the limits of my I um focus. I I felt the limits of my I um focus. I I felt the limits of my I went to like worldview camp when I was went to like worldview camp when I was went to like worldview camp when I was growing up. went through worldview growing up. went through worldview growing up. went through worldview seminars, read worldview books and just seminars, read worldview books and just seminars, read worldview books and just sorry worldview camp. sorry worldview camp. sorry worldview camp. Is that a thing? It is a thing as in Is that a thing? It is a thing as in Is that a thing? It is a thing as in that's what it's called. that's what it's called. that's what it's called. No, not called that. But there are No, not called that. But there are No, not called that. But there are multiple ones and people in here will multiple ones and people in here will multiple ones and people in here will probably recognize some of them and they probably recognize some of them and they probably recognize some of them and they do good work. I in fact in firming up my do good work. I in fact in firming up my do good work. I in fact in firming up my the reasons for why I believe what I the reasons for why I believe what I the reasons for why I believe what I believe. It's been hugely beneficial for believe. It's been hugely beneficial for believe. It's been hugely beneficial for me and helping me also me and helping me also me and helping me also understand different ideas and things understand different ideas and things understand different ideas and things I'm going to to to uh come into contact I'm going to to to uh come into contact I'm going to to to uh come into contact with and you know outside the the church with and you know outside the the church with and you know outside the the church when I'm with people who don't know when I'm with people who don't know when I'm with people who don't know Christ. Um but I I realized very early Christ. Um but I I realized very early Christ. Um but I I realized very early um in my own evangelistic um in my own evangelistic um in my own evangelistic uh journey uh the limits of that when I uh journey uh the limits of that when I uh journey uh the limits of that when I convinced a guy I worked with that Jesus convinced a guy I worked with that Jesus convinced a guy I worked with that Jesus had been raised from the dead. I mean, had been raised from the dead. I mean, had been raised from the dead. I mean, we talked about this at work multiple we talked about this at work multiple we talked about this at work multiple times and I got him to the place where times and I got him to the place where times and I got him to the place where he recognized that this is really he recognized that this is really he recognized that this is really possible and I was using great proofs possible and I was using great proofs possible and I was using great proofs and you know a lot of the great and you know a lot of the great and you know a lot of the great resources that are out there. Um and and resources that are out there. Um and and resources that are out there. Um and and nothing wrong with those resources. They nothing wrong with those resources. They nothing wrong with those resources. They were great. And his response at the end

were great. And his response at the end were great. And his response at the end was you know you you probably are right. was you know you you probably are right. was you know you you probably are right. Weird stuff happens except he didn't say Weird stuff happens except he didn't say Weird stuff happens except he didn't say stuff. Uh let the reader understand. And stuff. Uh let the reader understand. And stuff. Uh let the reader understand. And then I was kind of at that moment I was then I was kind of at that moment I was then I was kind of at that moment I was like like like okay what now like similar to to your okay what now like similar to to your okay what now like similar to to your thing like the the truth question wasn't thing like the the truth question wasn't thing like the the truth question wasn't the now that is absolutely essential the now that is absolutely essential the now that is absolutely essential question uh I am the way the truth and question uh I am the way the truth and question uh I am the way the truth and the life we're not don't hear us say the life we're not don't hear us say the life we're not don't hear us say please don't go out on social media and please don't go out on social media and please don't go out on social media and say this cultural apologetics question say this cultural apologetics question say this cultural apologetics question said can't care about the truth question said can't care about the truth question said can't care about the truth question no uh but but there is a um there are no uh but but there is a um there are no uh but but there is a um there are people that we were are talking to not people that we were are talking to not people that we were are talking to not all of them are having an existential all of them are having an existential all of them are having an existential crisis about the existence of God. They crisis about the existence of God. They crisis about the existence of God. They may already acknowledge the existence of may already acknowledge the existence of may already acknowledge the existence of God and they're having profound God and they're having profound God and they're having profound questions about what they believe is questions about what they believe is questions about what they believe is undeserved suffering that they're going undeserved suffering that they're going undeserved suffering that they're going through or a question about the goodness through or a question about the goodness through or a question about the goodness of Christianity or or a a desire for of Christianity or or a a desire for of Christianity or or a a desire for beauty in a world that seems beauty in a world that seems beauty in a world that seems increasingly dark. So, so Rebecca, we I increasingly dark. So, so Rebecca, we I increasingly dark. So, so Rebecca, we I think all of us except Andrew have been think all of us except Andrew have been think all of us except Andrew have been contributors to this uh new book on contributors to this uh new book on contributors to this uh new book on cultural apologetics. Uh I'm I'm proper cultural apologetics. Uh I'm I'm proper cultural apologetics. Uh I'm I'm proper naming and shaving. I'm I'm singling you naming and shaving. I'm I'm singling you naming and shaving. I'm I'm singling you out because we had a great conversation out because we had a great conversation out because we had a great conversation about why this is complete with about why this is complete with about why this is complete with fingerpointing as well. That's right. Um fingerpointing as well. That's right. Um fingerpointing as well. That's right. Um we this Keith didn't I wasn't you didn't we this Keith didn't I wasn't you didn't we this Keith didn't I wasn't you didn't you didn't do the the the So we that's you didn't do the the the So we that's you didn't do the the the So we that's why they seated us like that. This must why they seated us like that. This must why they seated us like that. This must be two of us and two, you know, uh, many

be two of us and two, you know, uh, many be two of us and two, you know, uh, many are called if you're chosen. That's all are called if you're chosen. That's all are called if you're chosen. That's all I'll say. But, I'll say. But, I'll say. But, um, no, but, uh, I'm sure you were um, no, but, uh, I'm sure you were um, no, but, uh, I'm sure you were invited. Uh, but this this new book, The invited. Uh, but this this new book, The invited. Uh, but this this new book, The Gospel After Christendom, it's got some Gospel After Christendom, it's got some Gospel After Christendom, it's got some terrific essays. Um but but one of the terrific essays. Um but but one of the terrific essays. Um but but one of the one of the essays that really stood out one of the essays that really stood out one of the essays that really stood out to me in looking through that book was to me in looking through that book was to me in looking through that book was yours, Rebecca, when you you basically yours, Rebecca, when you you basically yours, Rebecca, when you you basically um you recognize that there are many um you recognize that there are many um you recognize that there are many people today who are not first and people today who are not first and people today who are not first and foremost asking the truth question. It's foremost asking the truth question. It's foremost asking the truth question. It's not that that question goes away. not that that question goes away. not that that question goes away. They're asking the is Christianity good? They're asking the is Christianity good? They're asking the is Christianity good? Is Christianity beautiful? How does Is Christianity beautiful? How does Is Christianity beautiful? How does cultural cultural cultural apologetics in contrast to some of the apologetics in contrast to some of the apologetics in contrast to some of the other approaches out there help us other approaches out there help us other approaches out there help us answer those questions? answer those questions? answer those questions? Yeah, I think in the time that I've been Yeah, I think in the time that I've been Yeah, I think in the time that I've been trying to talk to people about Jesus, um trying to talk to people about Jesus, um trying to talk to people about Jesus, um I've definitely seen a a shift in that, I've definitely seen a a shift in that, I've definitely seen a a shift in that, you know, 20 odd years ago when I was a you know, 20 odd years ago when I was a you know, 20 odd years ago when I was a student at Cambridge in the UK, a lot of student at Cambridge in the UK, a lot of student at Cambridge in the UK, a lot of people would have they weren't people would have they weren't people would have they weren't considering Christianity because of like considering Christianity because of like considering Christianity because of like the new atheist arguments. You know, God the new atheist arguments. You know, God the new atheist arguments. You know, God just wasn't credible. Um suffering was just wasn't credible. Um suffering was just wasn't credible. Um suffering was certainly a question people had. Jesus certainly a question people had. Jesus certainly a question people had. Jesus clearly didn't rise from the dead. like clearly didn't rise from the dead. like clearly didn't rise from the dead. like there were it was like Christianity is there were it was like Christianity is there were it was like Christianity is sort of intellectually bankrupt and it sort of intellectually bankrupt and it sort of intellectually bankrupt and it was fine if I believed it fine you know was fine if I believed it fine you know was fine if I believed it fine you know enjoy not yourself out but it's not um enjoy not yourself out but it's not um enjoy not yourself out but it's not um it just wasn't credible to them um in it just wasn't credible to them um in it just wasn't credible to them um in the decades since I think we're now more the decades since I think we're now more the decades since I think we're now more in a space at least again Cambridge in a space at least again Cambridge in a space at least again Cambridge Massachusetts where I live where a lot Massachusetts where I live where a lot Massachusetts where I live where a lot of people will assume that Christianity of people will assume that Christianity of people will assume that Christianity is in fact immoral um that that as a is in fact immoral um that that as a is in fact immoral um that that as a Christian I I believe and sort of stand

Christian I I believe and sort of stand Christian I I believe and sort of stand for and with some things which are um for and with some things which are um for and with some things which are um against love and justice and and beauty against love and justice and and beauty against love and justice and and beauty and and goodness and and all those and and goodness and and all those and and goodness and and all those things. And so how do I engage with things. And so how do I engage with things. And so how do I engage with people in that space? You know, one of people in that space? You know, one of people in that space? You know, one of the things that I would want to say is the things that I would want to say is the things that I would want to say is um I want to recognize the the pieces of um I want to recognize the the pieces of um I want to recognize the the pieces of their analysis that are true. their analysis that are true. their analysis that are true. So for example, if somebody wants to So for example, if somebody wants to So for example, if somebody wants to say, I I cannot take seriously the say, I I cannot take seriously the say, I I cannot take seriously the claims of Christianity because of the claims of Christianity because of the claims of Christianity because of the history of racism in the in the history of racism in the in the history of racism in the in the church. I want to first say, yeah, the church. I want to first say, yeah, the church. I want to first say, yeah, the the history of racism in the white the history of racism in the white the history of racism in the white church is something that should give you church is something that should give you church is something that should give you pause. Um I I don't for a second want to pause. Um I I don't for a second want to pause. Um I I don't for a second want to defend that history. And in fact, I want defend that history. And in fact, I want defend that history. And in fact, I want to say because of my belief in Jesus and to say because of my belief in Jesus and to say because of my belief in Jesus and my belief in what the Bible teaches, I I my belief in what the Bible teaches, I I my belief in what the Bible teaches, I I fully agree with you that that that is fully agree with you that that that is fully agree with you that that that is that is wrong. You know, in the language that is wrong. You know, in the language that is wrong. You know, in the language of the Bible, that is that is of the Bible, that is that is of the Bible, that is that is sinful. Um but but then I want to sinful. Um but but then I want to sinful. Um but but then I want to say having agreed that like h how do we say having agreed that like h how do we say having agreed that like h how do we know that all human beings are know that all human beings are know that all human beings are fundamentally morally equal? How do we fundamentally morally equal? How do we fundamentally morally equal? How do we know that it's not okay for the strong know that it's not okay for the strong know that it's not okay for the strong and the rich and the powerful to trample and the rich and the powerful to trample and the rich and the powerful to trample on the weak and the poor and the on the weak and the poor and the on the weak and the poor and the marginalized? How do we know that love marginalized? How do we know that love marginalized? How do we know that love across racial difference is good? How do across racial difference is good? How do across racial difference is good? How do we know that men and women are we know that men and women are we know that men and women are ultimately equal in in value? How do we ultimately equal in in value? How do we ultimately equal in in value? How do we know that sexual consent is vital and know that sexual consent is vital and know that sexual consent is vital and that rape is is wrong, not just like a that rape is is wrong, not just like a that rape is is wrong, not just like a cultural preference that I, you know, cultural preference that I, you know, cultural preference that I, you know, don't hold and somebody else might do don't hold and somebody else might do don't hold and somebody else might do and that's that's fine. Like, how how do

and that's that's fine. Like, how how do and that's that's fine. Like, how how do we know any of the things that that we we know any of the things that that we we know any of the things that that we ground our critiques of Christianity on? ground our critiques of Christianity on? ground our critiques of Christianity on? you know, whether it's racism or history you know, whether it's racism or history you know, whether it's racism or history of sexual abuse or whether it's the the of sexual abuse or whether it's the the of sexual abuse or whether it's the the way that Christians have sometimes way that Christians have sometimes way that Christians have sometimes treated people who identify as gay or treated people who identify as gay or treated people who identify as gay or lesbian, like h how do we know that lesbian, like h how do we know that lesbian, like h how do we know that those things are wrong? Well, actually, those things are wrong? Well, actually, those things are wrong? Well, actually, it's because of the teachings of Jesus. it's because of the teachings of Jesus. it's because of the teachings of Jesus. And don't take my word for this. I mean, And don't take my word for this. I mean, And don't take my word for this. I mean, I'll I'll typically want to quote um I'll I'll typically want to quote um I'll I'll typically want to quote um especially people with sort of more of especially people with sort of more of especially people with sort of more of an academic background, I'll want to an academic background, I'll want to an academic background, I'll want to quote some of their own poets. Um so quote some of their own poets. Um so quote some of their own poets. Um so whether you know the the sort of you whether you know the the sort of you whether you know the the sort of you will know her of the world wrote this will know her of the world wrote this will know her of the world wrote this fat and interesting book, Sapiens, a fat and interesting book, Sapiens, a fat and interesting book, Sapiens, a brief history of humankind. um from a brief history of humankind. um from a brief history of humankind. um from a atheist perspective looking at the atheist perspective looking at the atheist perspective looking at the history of humanity and he'll say things history of humanity and he'll say things history of humanity and he'll say things in that book like um human rights are in that book like um human rights are in that book like um human rights are figments of our fertile imaginations. He figments of our fertile imaginations. He figments of our fertile imaginations. He says homo sapiens have no natural rights says homo sapiens have no natural rights says homo sapiens have no natural rights just as chimpanzees, hyenas and spiders just as chimpanzees, hyenas and spiders just as chimpanzees, hyenas and spiders have no natural rights. You know quotes have no natural rights. You know quotes have no natural rights. You know quotes the declaration of independence. We hold the declaration of independence. We hold the declaration of independence. We hold these truths to be self-evident. All men these truths to be self-evident. All men these truths to be self-evident. All men are created equal. And he says the are created equal. And he says the are created equal. And he says the Americans got the idea of human equality Americans got the idea of human equality Americans got the idea of human equality from Christianity.

from Christianity. from Christianity. But if we don't believe in a god who But if we don't believe in a god who But if we don't believe in a god who made humans and gave them souls and all made humans and gave them souls and all made humans and gave them souls and all that kind of jazz, like what does it that kind of jazz, like what does it that kind of jazz, like what does it even mean to say that humans are equal? even mean to say that humans are equal? even mean to say that humans are equal? He says the scientific study of homo He says the scientific study of homo He says the scientific study of homo sapiens has embarrassing little to do sapiens has embarrassing little to do sapiens has embarrassing little to do with universal human rights and with universal human rights and with universal human rights and equality. So I don't want to say to that equality. So I don't want to say to that equality. So I don't want to say to that person like like you, I actually I person like like you, I actually I person like like you, I actually I really care about justice and I really really care about justice and I really really care about justice and I really care about the poor and the and the care about the poor and the and the care about the poor and the and the marginalized. I really care about like marginalized. I really care about like marginalized. I really care about like the um people not being oppressed and the um people not being oppressed and the um people not being oppressed and and violated. and violated. and violated. Um, and I have reasons for that from my Um, and I have reasons for that from my Um, and I have reasons for that from my from my Christian from my Christian from my Christian faith. But if there is no God and if faith. But if there is no God and if faith. But if there is no God and if Jesus isn't who he claims to be and his Jesus isn't who he claims to be and his Jesus isn't who he claims to be and his his words don't actually proclaim moral his words don't actually proclaim moral his words don't actually proclaim moral truth, then we live in a universe which truth, then we live in a universe which truth, then we live in a universe which as Richard Dawkins puts it has precisely as Richard Dawkins puts it has precisely as Richard Dawkins puts it has precisely the properties we should expect. There's the properties we should expect. There's the properties we should expect. There's at bottom no design, no purpose, no at bottom no design, no purpose, no at bottom no design, no purpose, no meaning and no good, nothing but blind, meaning and no good, nothing but blind, meaning and no good, nothing but blind, pitiles indifference. So, I'd sort of pitiles indifference. So, I'd sort of pitiles indifference. So, I'd sort of want to I want to sit with them in that want to I want to sit with them in that want to I want to sit with them in that critique and say, "Yeah, I agree critique and say, "Yeah, I agree critique and say, "Yeah, I agree with much of what you're saying there with much of what you're saying there with much of what you're saying there because I'm a Christian." Um, or when it because I'm a Christian." Um, or when it because I'm a Christian." Um, or when it comes to to questions of of sexual comes to to questions of of sexual comes to to questions of of sexual ethics, um, you know, I'd sometimes say ethics, um, you know, I'd sometimes say ethics, um, you know, I'd sometimes say to people as a Christian, it's not it's to people as a Christian, it's not it's to people as a Christian, it's not it's crazier than you think. It's not just crazier than you think. It's not just crazier than you think. It's not just that I believe that sex only belongs in that I believe that sex only belongs in that I believe that sex only belongs in marriage between one man and one woman, marriage between one man and one woman, marriage between one man and one woman, but I believe it's all about a metaphor but I believe it's all about a metaphor but I believe it's all about a metaphor of Jesus's love for his people. like of Jesus's love for his people. like of Jesus's love for his people. like let's talk about that but let's let's let's talk about that but let's let's let's talk about that but let's let's also see how Christian ethics when also see how Christian ethics when also see how Christian ethics when introduced into the ancient world was introduced into the ancient world was introduced into the ancient world was incredibly incredibly good for women um incredibly incredibly good for women um incredibly incredibly good for women um incredibly good in terms of developing

incredibly good in terms of developing incredibly good in terms of developing our idea of sexual consent um and making our idea of sexual consent um and making our idea of sexual consent um and making uh rape something that you could uh rape something that you could uh rape something that you could understand as as happening to somebody understand as as happening to somebody understand as as happening to somebody um even if they were not a powerful or um even if they were not a powerful or um even if they were not a powerful or rich or important or freeborn person but rich or important or freeborn person but rich or important or freeborn person but actually to say no everybody's body's actually to say no everybody's body's actually to say no everybody's body's body matters, so everybody's consent body matters, so everybody's consent body matters, so everybody's consent matters. And there aren't categories of matters. And there aren't categories of matters. And there aren't categories of people who you can sort of sexually use people who you can sort of sexually use people who you can sort of sexually use without it without it mattering. Like without it without it mattering. Like without it without it mattering. Like all of that, all of those moral beliefs all of that, all of those moral beliefs all of that, all of those moral beliefs that my least Christian friends hold to that my least Christian friends hold to that my least Christian friends hold to them from Christianity. And so I want to them from Christianity. And so I want to them from Christianity. And so I want to say, yeah, as as a Christian, I believe say, yeah, as as a Christian, I believe say, yeah, as as a Christian, I believe in crazy things like Jesus rising from in crazy things like Jesus rising from in crazy things like Jesus rising from from the dead. Um, but I think you from the dead. Um, but I think you from the dead. Um, but I think you believe in some crazy things as well. believe in some crazy things as well. believe in some crazy things as well. and and your your longings for justice and and your your longings for justice and and your your longings for justice and for truth and for for goodness and and for truth and for for goodness and and for truth and for for goodness and for the ark of history to be bending for the ark of history to be bending for the ark of history to be bending towards some something much better than towards some something much better than towards some something much better than we have now. Those are only going to be we have now. Those are only going to be we have now. Those are only going to be fulfilled if Jesus is in fact who he fulfilled if Jesus is in fact who he fulfilled if Jesus is in fact who he claims to be. That's really helpful. U claims to be. That's really helpful. U claims to be. That's really helpful. U I'd like us to as we're going to wrap up I'd like us to as we're going to wrap up I'd like us to as we're going to wrap up here talk a little bit about the role of here talk a little bit about the role of here talk a little bit about the role of the church in cultural apologetics. Um the church in cultural apologetics. Um the church in cultural apologetics. Um we've been talking about it in more of we've been talking about it in more of we've been talking about it in more of the terms of individual conversations the terms of individual conversations the terms of individual conversations which is good. We all want to be having which is good. We all want to be having which is good. We all want to be having those. But I just wonder what role does those. But I just wonder what role does those. But I just wonder what role does the church play in this. Keith, I know the church play in this. Keith, I know the church play in this. Keith, I know this has been on your heart as we talked this has been on your heart as we talked this has been on your heart as we talked beforehand that this is something that beforehand that this is something that beforehand that this is something that you uh feel passionately about. Yes. I I you uh feel passionately about. Yes. I I you uh feel passionately about. Yes. I I think apologetics is something that the think apologetics is something that the think apologetics is something that the church church church does, but there's a sense in which does, but there's a sense in which does, but there's a sense in which apologetics is something that the church

apologetics is something that the church apologetics is something that the church is. is. is. You think about um Jesus prayer in John You think about um Jesus prayer in John You think about um Jesus prayer in John 17 and his prayer for uh those who 17 and his prayer for uh those who 17 and his prayer for uh those who believe upon him to be one. The reason believe upon him to be one. The reason believe upon him to be one. The reason is so that the world would believe that is so that the world would believe that is so that the world would believe that you have sent you have sent you have sent me. That's not a me. That's not a me. That's not a syllogism. That's not an argument. It's syllogism. That's not an argument. It's syllogism. That's not an argument. It's not an argument that you know you could not an argument that you know you could not an argument that you know you could write down and so forth. It's an write down and so forth. It's an write down and so forth. It's an existential persuasive power that how it existential persuasive power that how it existential persuasive power that how it is that Christians live with each other is that Christians live with each other is that Christians live with each other is part of the commending of the truth is part of the commending of the truth is part of the commending of the truth of the of the of the gospel. That is why you know the gospel. That is why you know the gospel. That is why you know the messages that we have been hearing from messages that we have been hearing from messages that we have been hearing from Ephesians are just so relevant to this. Ephesians are just so relevant to this. Ephesians are just so relevant to this. the reconciliation the reconciliation the reconciliation um living in unity together that is um living in unity together that is um living in unity together that is uh an important part of the apologetic uh an important part of the apologetic uh an important part of the apologetic task but it's not just defending the task but it's not just defending the task but it's not just defending the gospel it's commending it it is saying I gospel it's commending it it is saying I gospel it's commending it it is saying I forget who said it um one of the keynote forget who said it um one of the keynote forget who said it um one of the keynote speakers but there's a saying that there speakers but there's a saying that there speakers but there's a saying that there there is a there's a love here there is there is a there's a love here there is there is a there's a love here there is something here that doesn't exist something here that doesn't exist something here that doesn't exist elsewhere there's got to be elsewhere there's got to be elsewhere there's got to be something behind this. I want to know something behind this. I want to know something behind this. I want to know more about it. Um Francis Schaefer is more about it. Um Francis Schaefer is more about it. Um Francis Schaefer is someone who has been a big influence on someone who has been a big influence on someone who has been a big influence on me. Uh one of the things that he said is me. Uh one of the things that he said is me. Uh one of the things that he said is that the church should be a place of that the church should be a place of that the church should be a place of truth and beauty. By truth he meant uh

truth and beauty. By truth he meant uh truth and beauty. By truth he meant uh his saying was it is it's to be an his saying was it is it's to be an his saying was it is it's to be an atmosphere in which there are honest atmosphere in which there are honest atmosphere in which there are honest answers given to honest questions. So answers given to honest questions. So answers given to honest questions. So there is that truth component. By beauty there is that truth component. By beauty there is that truth component. By beauty he meant the beauty of holiness and he meant the beauty of holiness and he meant the beauty of holiness and love. love. love. And the whole purpose of Libri, if And the whole purpose of Libri, if And the whole purpose of Libri, if you're familiar with the Schaefer's you're familiar with the Schaefer's you're familiar with the Schaefer's ministry, he said he and Edith said that ministry, he said he and Edith said that ministry, he said he and Edith said that Libri exists for the demonstration of Libri exists for the demonstration of Libri exists for the demonstration of the existence of the existence of the existence of God. The demonstration, yes, by ask God. The demonstration, yes, by ask God. The demonstration, yes, by ask answering the questions, providing answering the questions, providing answering the questions, providing biblical answers, but also they meant biblical answers, but also they meant biblical answers, but also they meant the demonstration of the existence of the demonstration of the existence of the demonstration of the existence of God by the Christian community. God by the Christian community. God by the Christian community. how it is that people saw Christians how it is that people saw Christians how it is that people saw Christians loving and living and working through uh loving and living and working through uh loving and living and working through uh disagreements, forgiving one another and disagreements, forgiving one another and disagreements, forgiving one another and so forth. That's part of the so forth. That's part of the so forth. That's part of the demonstration of the existence of God. demonstration of the existence of God. demonstration of the existence of God. So when I think about apologetics in the So when I think about apologetics in the So when I think about apologetics in the church, I I'll just um echo Schaefer and church, I I'll just um echo Schaefer and church, I I'll just um echo Schaefer and say our local churches need to be say our local churches need to be say our local churches need to be progressively progressively progressively becoming places of truth and beauty.

becoming places of truth and beauty. becoming places of truth and beauty. I I love Francis Shaver also says, and I I love Francis Shaver also says, and I I love Francis Shaver also says, and this is really shocking to think about, this is really shocking to think about, this is really shocking to think about, but I think it was 50 years ago this but I think it was 50 years ago this but I think it was 50 years ago this year, he said um that the Lord Jesus year, he said um that the Lord Jesus year, he said um that the Lord Jesus gives the world gives the world gives the world uh a criterion by which to judge the uh a criterion by which to judge the uh a criterion by which to judge the church. Yes. By how well we love one church. Yes. By how well we love one church. Yes. By how well we love one another. The mark of a Christian. The another. The mark of a Christian. The another. The mark of a Christian. The mark of a Christian. uh Leslie Nubigen mark of a Christian. uh Leslie Nubigen mark of a Christian. uh Leslie Nubigen uh the missionary theologian talked uh the missionary theologian talked uh the missionary theologian talked about the church as the the church is about the church as the the church is about the church as the the church is the hermeneutic of the gospel. the hermeneutic of the gospel. the hermeneutic of the gospel. Um, and so I think that this is one of Um, and so I think that this is one of Um, and so I think that this is one of the most beautiful aspect. You know, the most beautiful aspect. You know, the most beautiful aspect. You know, sometimes we'll say because we want to sometimes we'll say because we want to sometimes we'll say because we want to train people to think evangelistically. train people to think evangelistically. train people to think evangelistically. We'll want to tell people, hey, you We'll want to tell people, hey, you We'll want to tell people, hey, you should be able to share the gospel with should be able to share the gospel with should be able to share the gospel with an unbeliever on your own. You know, an unbeliever on your own. You know, an unbeliever on your own. You know, just bringing people to church isn't just bringing people to church isn't just bringing people to church isn't isn't all evangelism is, which is true. isn't all evangelism is, which is true. isn't all evangelism is, which is true. Completely true. Want to affirm that. Completely true. Want to affirm that. Completely true. Want to affirm that. But at the same time, we also want to But at the same time, we also want to But at the same time, we also want to have the kind of culture in our churches have the kind of culture in our churches have the kind of culture in our churches that when we bring people in and they that when we bring people in and they that when we bring people in and they see people who are devoted to the Lord see people who are devoted to the Lord see people who are devoted to the Lord Jesus, devoted to one another, Jesus, devoted to one another, Jesus, devoted to one another, worshiping him, suddenly the worshiping him, suddenly the worshiping him, suddenly the resurrection, some of these the resurrection, some of these the resurrection, some of these the goodness, the beauty questions we've goodness, the beauty questions we've goodness, the beauty questions we've been talking about become more plausible been talking about become more plausible been talking about become more plausible when they see a community that is uh on when they see a community that is uh on when they see a community that is uh on fire for the Lord and and for each fire for the Lord and and for each fire for the Lord and and for each other. And so there is something other. And so there is something other. And so there is something beautiful in the evangelistic tax, I beautiful in the evangelistic tax, I beautiful in the evangelistic tax, I think, of bringing people to church as think, of bringing people to church as think, of bringing people to church as well.

well. well. Yes. And I think that we are now in a Yes. And I think that we are now in a Yes. And I think that we are now in a culture of such loneliness culture of such loneliness culture of such loneliness that the love that we believers can and that the love that we believers can and that the love that we believers can and must have for one another which must and must have for one another which must and must have for one another which must and can overflow into our love for those can overflow into our love for those can overflow into our love for those around us is in and of itself a a a around us is in and of itself a a a around us is in and of itself a a a light in the darkness. I mean quite light in the darkness. I mean quite light in the darkness. I mean quite literally. Again, I speak from my own literally. Again, I speak from my own literally. Again, I speak from my own sort of context up in Cambridge, sort of context up in Cambridge, sort of context up in Cambridge, Massachusetts, but seeing people coming Massachusetts, but seeing people coming Massachusetts, but seeing people coming to faith and saying before I became a to faith and saying before I became a to faith and saying before I became a Christian, the only like meaningful Christian, the only like meaningful Christian, the only like meaningful relationships I had were in the context relationships I had were in the context relationships I had were in the context of sexual or romantic relationships. And of sexual or romantic relationships. And of sexual or romantic relationships. And you know, I I stayed in I stayed in a you know, I I stayed in I stayed in a you know, I I stayed in I stayed in a sexual relationship I didn't even want sexual relationship I didn't even want sexual relationship I didn't even want to be in because it was the only place I to be in because it was the only place I to be in because it was the only place I was getting any like actual connection. was getting any like actual connection. was getting any like actual connection. I didn't have friends. I didn't have I didn't have friends. I didn't have I didn't have friends. I didn't have community. I'm not saying that's going community. I'm not saying that's going community. I'm not saying that's going to be true of everybody, but there's to be true of everybody, but there's to be true of everybody, but there's been such a kind of collapsing down of been such a kind of collapsing down of been such a kind of collapsing down of all love into sexual romantic all love into sexual romantic all love into sexual romantic relationships. A and a secular sort of relationships. A and a secular sort of relationships. A and a secular sort of dating culture which is brutal, dating culture which is brutal, dating culture which is brutal, especially to young women, I think to especially to young women, I think to especially to young women, I think to everybody, but especially to young everybody, but especially to young everybody, but especially to young women. Um, and to where we're seeing women. Um, and to where we're seeing women. Um, and to where we're seeing people sort of coming into the church people sort of coming into the church people sort of coming into the church and having to be retrained on like, oh, and having to be retrained on like, oh, and having to be retrained on like, oh, do you know what? We hug one another in do you know what? We hug one another in do you know what? We hug one another in this community. like you can come you this community. like you can come you this community. like you can come you can have like safe affection that is can have like safe affection that is can have like safe affection that is outside of a sexual or romantic outside of a sexual or romantic outside of a sexual or romantic relationship and that there is there's relationship and that there is there's relationship and that there is there's just so there is so much gospel just so there is so much gospel just so there is so much gospel opportunity right here right now to the opportunity right here right now to the opportunity right here right now to the to the level that I have never seen in to the level that I have never seen in to the level that I have never seen in my lifetime and I've been trying to tell my lifetime and I've been trying to tell my lifetime and I've been trying to tell people about Jesus for decades at this

people about Jesus for decades at this people about Jesus for decades at this point um I think we need to go on on the point um I think we need to go on on the point um I think we need to go on on the offensive offensive offensive evangelistically not with our own evangelistically not with our own evangelistically not with our own offensiveness but with the offense of offensiveness but with the offense of offensiveness but with the offense of the gospel and with the love of Jesus um the gospel and with the love of Jesus um the gospel and with the love of Jesus um we need to just get out there into we need to just get out there into we need to just get out there into into the culture, into our into the culture, into our into the culture, into our neighborhoods, into our our school neighborhoods, into our our school neighborhoods, into our our school environments, whatever it is, and not environments, whatever it is, and not environments, whatever it is, and not assume that people don't want to hear assume that people don't want to hear assume that people don't want to hear because a lot of them actually are because a lot of them actually are because a lot of them actually are desperate for the gospel right now. What desperate for the gospel right now. What desperate for the gospel right now. What a great opportunity we have. Andrew, do a great opportunity we have. Andrew, do a great opportunity we have. Andrew, do you mind closing us in prayer and and you mind closing us in prayer and and you mind closing us in prayer and and asking the Lord to help us to seize asking the Lord to help us to seize asking the Lord to help us to seize those opportunities to showcase his those opportunities to showcase his those opportunities to showcase his love? Yeah. Let's let's pray. Father, we love? Yeah. Let's let's pray. Father, we love? Yeah. Let's let's pray. Father, we are so grateful for your mighty word, are so grateful for your mighty word, are so grateful for your mighty word, your heart to save that all people might your heart to save that all people might your heart to save that all people might come to know you. your desire to come to know you. your desire to come to know you. your desire to transform the world and to bring all transform the world and to bring all transform the world and to bring all things under the feet of your son and things under the feet of your son and things under the feet of your son and every enemy, every principality and every enemy, every principality and every enemy, every principality and power, every lie, but also every longing power, every lie, but also every longing power, every lie, but also every longing and every good thing and every desire to and every good thing and every desire to and every good thing and every desire to see them all fulfilled to see the world see them all fulfilled to see the world see them all fulfilled to see the world made right to see all things united in made right to see all things united in made right to see all things united in Christ. And Lord, on the basis of that, Christ. And Lord, on the basis of that, Christ. And Lord, on the basis of that, we pray that you would give us the grace we pray that you would give us the grace we pray that you would give us the grace and the skill to make steps in that and the skill to make steps in that and the skill to make steps in that direction, whether that's something direction, whether that's something direction, whether that's something that's a few days away or whether it's that's a few days away or whether it's that's a few days away or whether it's thousands of years away, that you would thousands of years away, that you would thousands of years away, that you would give us grace and skill to take further give us grace and skill to take further give us grace and skill to take further steps with our with our families, with steps with our with our families, with steps with our with our families, with our neighbors, with our colleagues, with our neighbors, with our colleagues, with our neighbors, with our colleagues, with our people in our communities towards our people in our communities towards our people in our communities towards that day. to help us, to give us ears to that day. to help us, to give us ears to that day. to help us, to give us ears to hear what people are not saying, to give hear what people are not saying, to give hear what people are not saying, to give us love for our neighbor, to give us

us love for our neighbor, to give us us love for our neighbor, to give us discernment to see the good and the bad discernment to see the good and the bad discernment to see the good and the bad in what people are saying and believing. in what people are saying and believing. in what people are saying and believing. And Lord, that you'd give us patience as And Lord, that you'd give us patience as And Lord, that you'd give us patience as well and and a ability to be there for well and and a ability to be there for well and and a ability to be there for the long haul with in the friendships we the long haul with in the friendships we the long haul with in the friendships we form that we would lead people towards form that we would lead people towards form that we would lead people towards Jesus but not be cross with them when Jesus but not be cross with them when Jesus but not be cross with them when they don't come. And that you'd give us they don't come. And that you'd give us they don't come. And that you'd give us time. May the may we have churches that time. May the may we have churches that time. May the may we have churches that are ready to be sanctuaries for the are ready to be sanctuaries for the are ready to be sanctuaries for the people who get broken by the experiments people who get broken by the experiments people who get broken by the experiments the world is going through in sexual or the world is going through in sexual or the world is going through in sexual or political or whatever other turbulence political or whatever other turbulence political or whatever other turbulence there is that people would come and find there is that people would come and find there is that people would come and find safe haven in the church when they safe haven in the church when they safe haven in the church when they eventually find it doesn't work and that eventually find it doesn't work and that eventually find it doesn't work and that you'd make us a loving community that you'd make us a loving community that you'd make us a loving community that love one another as you have loved us love one another as you have loved us love one another as you have loved us and we pray these things in Jesus name. and we pray these things in Jesus name. and we pray these things in Jesus name. Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you all for Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you all for Amen. Amen. Amen. Thank you all for being with us today. being with us today. being with us today. [Music]