Jen Wilkin Wants to Help You Age Wisely [Gospelbound Ep. 188]

For me, this moment came For me, this moment came >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> with the death of my mother when she was >> with the death of my mother when she was >> with the death of my mother when she was 80 years old. And I sat at her bedside 80 years old. And I sat at her bedside 80 years old. And I sat at her bedside and [music] the hospice nurse said I and [music] the hospice nurse said I and [music] the hospice nurse said I could coach her through the labor of could coach her through the labor of could coach her through the labor of dying. dying. dying. Um [music] and then sat there and Um [music] and then sat there and Um [music] and then sat there and listened to the labored breathing. listened to the labored breathing. listened to the labored breathing. Um heard [music] that Um heard [music] that Um heard [music] that giant exhale and a crashing silence. giant exhale and a crashing silence. giant exhale and a crashing silence. And [music] in the days and weeks after And [music] in the days and weeks after And [music] in the days and weeks after processing this sacred moment, I just processing this sacred moment, I just processing this sacred moment, I just kept [music] thinking about how her life kept [music] thinking about how her life kept [music] thinking about how her life had begun in a same but different way had begun in a same but different way had begun in a same but different way with a giant inhale and this this wail with a giant inhale and this this wail with a giant inhale and this this wail that announced the beginning [music] of that announced the beginning [music] of that announced the beginning [music] of life. >> Only a couple years out of college, I >> Only a couple years out of college, I told my coworker that I look forward to told my coworker that I look forward to told my coworker that I look forward to being old. being old. being old. Uh they weren't just dismissive of that Uh they weren't just dismissive of that Uh they weren't just dismissive of that comment. They were indignant. comment. They were indignant. comment. They were indignant. They were upset. And on one level, I They were upset. And on one level, I They were upset. And on one level, I know why. I understood little to nothing know why. I understood little to nothing know why. I understood little to nothing at age 23 about the hardships of aging at age 23 about the hardships of aging at age 23 about the hardships of aging and caring for the dying. I just hadn't and caring for the dying. I just hadn't and caring for the dying. I just hadn't yet suffered many of life's inevitable yet suffered many of life's inevitable yet suffered many of life's inevitable pains. At the same time, I looked pains. At the same time, I looked pains. At the same time, I looked forward to greater wisdom, maybe even forward to greater wisdom, maybe even forward to greater wisdom, maybe even defeat of some sins and temptations or defeat of some sins and temptations or defeat of some sins and temptations or at least a little bit of progress on at least a little bit of progress on at least a little bit of progress on those. I was excited about all that I those. I was excited about all that I those. I was excited about all that I could learn if the Lord granted me could learn if the Lord granted me could learn if the Lord granted me years. Maybe even I had a couple Bible years. Maybe even I had a couple Bible years. Maybe even I had a couple Bible verses in my head. Proverbs 16:31, "Gray verses in my head. Proverbs 16:31, "Gray verses in my head. Proverbs 16:31, "Gray hair is a crown of glory. It is gained hair is a crown of glory. It is gained hair is a crown of glory. It is gained in a righteous life." Um boy, I guess if

in a righteous life." Um boy, I guess if in a righteous life." Um boy, I guess if [clears throat] that's sign for me, [clears throat] that's sign for me, [clears throat] that's sign for me, that's been pretty successful in the that's been pretty successful in the that's been pretty successful in the last 5 years. last 5 years. last 5 years. Um or Job 12:12, "Wisdom is with the Um or Job 12:12, "Wisdom is with the Um or Job 12:12, "Wisdom is with the aged and understanding in length of aged and understanding in length of aged and understanding in length of days." Well, days." Well, days." Well, both of these verses are cited by Jen both of these verses are cited by Jen both of these verses are cited by Jen Wilkin in her excellent new book Dust to Wilkin in her excellent new book Dust to Wilkin in her excellent new book Dust to Dust, Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging Dust, Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging Dust, Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging World, published by Crossway. World, published by Crossway. World, published by Crossway. If you take my youthful naivete at its If you take my youthful naivete at its If you take my youthful naivete at its best, I was recognizing what Jen best, I was recognizing what Jen best, I was recognizing what Jen distinguishes in her book. The world distinguishes in her book. The world distinguishes in her book. The world says to age is to diminish, but the says to age is to diminish, but the says to age is to diminish, but the Bible says to age is to deepen. Bible says to age is to deepen. Bible says to age is to deepen. Now, in middle age, however, I Now, in middle age, however, I Now, in middle age, however, I experienced the good and the bad. The experienced the good and the bad. The experienced the good and the bad. The invisibility because no one would invisibility because no one would invisibility because no one would possibly notice my appearance, but also possibly notice my appearance, but also possibly notice my appearance, but also the freedom because I have that the freedom because I have that the freedom because I have that middle-aged dad superpower of not caring middle-aged dad superpower of not caring middle-aged dad superpower of not caring what people think of my appearance. what people think of my appearance. what people think of my appearance. I didn't realize how much I needed Jen's I didn't realize how much I needed Jen's I didn't realize how much I needed Jen's book and I'm eager to ask a whole bunch book and I'm eager to ask a whole bunch book and I'm eager to ask a whole bunch of questions even more than usual now on of questions even more than usual now on of questions even more than usual now on Gospel Bound. Jen, thanks for joining me Gospel Bound. Jen, thanks for joining me Gospel Bound. Jen, thanks for joining me again. again. again. >> Oh, thanks so much for having me on, >> Oh, thanks so much for having me on, >> Oh, thanks so much for having me on, Collin. Collin. Collin. >> I'm going to start with the obvious one. >> I'm going to start with the obvious one. >> I'm going to start with the obvious one. Why do we value youth so much more than Why do we value youth so much more than Why do we value youth so much more than old age?

old age? old age? >> I think that we I think we are >> I think that we I think we are >> I think that we I think we are in some ways no different than any other in some ways no different than any other in some ways no different than any other time period in history in this, but then time period in history in this, but then time period in history in this, but then in other ways very different because the in other ways very different because the in other ways very different because the ability to magnify that message is so ability to magnify that message is so ability to magnify that message is so much greater and much greater and much greater and social media is a game for the young. social media is a game for the young. social media is a game for the young. And so, when you go out to look and see And so, when you go out to look and see And so, when you go out to look and see who who are influencers and like step who who are influencers and like step who who are influencers and like step back from your understanding of that back from your understanding of that back from your understanding of that term as a term that exists out there in term as a term that exists out there in term as a term that exists out there in social media, think of just what it social media, think of just what it social media, think of just what it means. Those who have influence over us. means. Those who have influence over us. means. Those who have influence over us. Who has influence over us when we think Who has influence over us when we think Who has influence over us when we think about what to wear or what to eat or how about what to wear or what to eat or how about what to wear or what to eat or how to look on our how our faces are going to look on our how our faces are going to look on our how our faces are going to look, we're typically looking at to look, we're typically looking at to look, we're typically looking at online personas who if you just look at online personas who if you just look at online personas who if you just look at the statistics, they're between the age the statistics, they're between the age the statistics, they're between the age of 18 and 24, most of them. of 18 and 24, most of them. of 18 and 24, most of them. And so, I would say that while every And so, I would say that while every And so, I would say that while every culture has probably looked at the young culture has probably looked at the young culture has probably looked at the young and said, "Oh, you know, they're they're and said, "Oh, you know, they're they're and said, "Oh, you know, they're they're kind of foolish, but we do still wish kind of foolish, but we do still wish kind of foolish, but we do still wish that we had some of what they got." that we had some of what they got." that we had some of what they got." Our culture is all in on no, but I have Our culture is all in on no, but I have Our culture is all in on no, but I have to stay frozen in time.

to stay frozen in time. to stay frozen in time. Or I'll become obsolete just like the Or I'll become obsolete just like the Or I'll become obsolete just like the technology that I don't use anymore. You technology that I don't use anymore. You technology that I don't use anymore. You know, we see so many know, we see so many know, we see so many evidences of obsolescence in things that evidences of obsolescence in things that evidences of obsolescence in things that are not actually that old that I think are not actually that old that I think are not actually that old that I think we recognize the potential for that to we recognize the potential for that to we recognize the potential for that to be true of of us as well. be true of of us as well. be true of of us as well. >> Jen, what's the first time you can >> Jen, what's the first time you can >> Jen, what's the first time you can remember thinking, "Wow, I'm aging." remember thinking, "Wow, I'm aging." remember thinking, "Wow, I'm aging." >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Starting to feel old. >> Starting to feel old. >> Starting to feel old. >> Uh, that's a really good question. I >> Uh, that's a really good question. I >> Uh, that's a really good question. I think it was, you know, I got Seriously, think it was, you know, I got Seriously, think it was, you know, I got Seriously, on my 40th birthday it feels like. Uh, I on my 40th birthday it feels like. Uh, I on my 40th birthday it feels like. Uh, I woke up and couldn't see anymore. And I woke up and couldn't see anymore. And I woke up and couldn't see anymore. And I will never forget my sister-in-law will never forget my sister-in-law will never forget my sister-in-law handing me her readers and saying, handing me her readers and saying, handing me her readers and saying, "Well, here, try this." We were at a "Well, here, try this." We were at a "Well, here, try this." We were at a restaurant. And I put them on and I restaurant. And I put them on and I restaurant. And I put them on and I thought I had experienced a medical thought I had experienced a medical thought I had experienced a medical miracle. You know, I just cuz I never miracle. You know, I just cuz I never miracle. You know, I just cuz I never have really worn glasses for anything. have really worn glasses for anything. have really worn glasses for anything. And uh, I was like, "Oh my gosh, you And uh, I was like, "Oh my gosh, you And uh, I was like, "Oh my gosh, you just fixed that, you know." And she's just fixed that, you know." And she's just fixed that, you know." And she's like, "Yeah, hello." And so, that was like, "Yeah, hello." And so, that was like, "Yeah, hello." And so, that was one of the first things. And then there one of the first things. And then there one of the first things. And then there were things like, you know, you'll have were things like, you know, you'll have were things like, you know, you'll have a dental problem. Like I I I chipped a a dental problem. Like I I I chipped a a dental problem. Like I I I chipped a tooth. And then I started having dreams tooth. And then I started having dreams tooth. And then I started having dreams about all my teeth falling out, which is about all my teeth falling out, which is about all my teeth falling out, which is apparently really common when you start apparently really common when you start apparently really common when you start to recognize the aging process is is to recognize the aging process is is to recognize the aging process is is happening in your own body. And then, happening in your own body. And then, happening in your own body. And then, you know, as my 40s progressed, you had you know, as my 40s progressed, you had you know, as my 40s progressed, you had that thing happen where you would just that thing happen where you would just that thing happen where you would just wake up in the morning hurting and you wake up in the morning hurting and you wake up in the morning hurting and you don't know why.

don't know why. don't know why. Uh, but, you know, other than that, I Uh, but, you know, other than that, I Uh, but, you know, other than that, I Jeff, my husband, he went gray in his Jeff, my husband, he went gray in his Jeff, my husband, he went gray in his 20s. He He jokingly, but also have 20s. He He jokingly, but also have 20s. He He jokingly, but also have seriously says that he got his first seriously says that he got his first seriously says that he got his first gray hair when he was dating me at at gray hair when he was dating me at at gray hair when he was dating me at at 21. And he was all gray by the end of 21. And he was all gray by the end of 21. And he was all gray by the end of our 20s. And I am You see me before you our 20s. And I am You see me before you our 20s. And I am You see me before you right now, those of you can see me. This right now, those of you can see me. This right now, those of you can see me. This is as much gray hair as I currently is as much gray hair as I currently is as much gray hair as I currently have. And so, I Yeah, it's like all I have. And so, I Yeah, it's like all I have. And so, I Yeah, it's like all I have it. It's just like around my have it. It's just like around my have it. It's just like around my temples and on and I've known you since temples and on and I've known you since temples and on and I've known you since you were you were you were >> blonde and young and >> blonde and young and >> blonde and young and >> Like my kids. >> Like my kids. >> Like my kids. >> Yeah, so I think being married to Jeff >> Yeah, so I think being married to Jeff >> Yeah, so I think being married to Jeff um, and see I mean, he had this really um, and see I mean, he had this really um, and see I mean, he had this really baby face and then this you this gray baby face and then this you this gray baby face and then this you this gray hair. And for him, it was so fascinating hair. And for him, it was so fascinating hair. And for him, it was so fascinating because the gray hair kind of helped him because the gray hair kind of helped him because the gray hair kind of helped him in his job. He was taken more seriously. in his job. He was taken more seriously. in his job. He was taken more seriously. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Uh, but I promise you, any woman >> Uh, but I promise you, any woman >> Uh, but I promise you, any woman listening to this knows that is not the listening to this knows that is not the listening to this knows that is not the standard for us. standard for us. standard for us. >> I was just going to ask, how does aging >> I was just going to ask, how does aging >> I was just going to ask, how does aging feel different for men and women? feel different for men and women? feel different for men and women? >> I think that >> I think that >> I think that um in some ways it feels the same. You um in some ways it feels the same. You um in some ways it feels the same. You know, we experience the same aches, we know, we experience the same aches, we know, we experience the same aches, we realize our bodies don't move the way realize our bodies don't move the way realize our bodies don't move the way that they used to, but with regard to that they used to, but with regard to that they used to, but with regard to the aesthetics of aging, men win.

the aesthetics of aging, men win. the aesthetics of aging, men win. Everybody tends to think of men as Everybody tends to think of men as Everybody tends to think of men as improving with age in their improving with age in their improving with age in their attractiveness. And you have only to attractiveness. And you have only to attractiveness. And you have only to look so far as Hollywood to understand look so far as Hollywood to understand look so far as Hollywood to understand that the women know they are on borrowed that the women know they are on borrowed that the women know they are on borrowed time in terms of um how their beauty is time in terms of um how their beauty is time in terms of um how their beauty is perceived. And um in terms of uh whether perceived. And um in terms of uh whether perceived. And um in terms of uh whether they can even allow, you know, it's they can even allow, you know, it's they can even allow, you know, it's interesting cuz now the internet you can interesting cuz now the internet you can interesting cuz now the internet you can find someone's age out. It used to be find someone's age out. It used to be find someone's age out. It used to be you didn't know how old someone was and you didn't know how old someone was and you didn't know how old someone was and and a lot of women were very happy to and a lot of women were very happy to and a lot of women were very happy to keep it that way. Like it was a big keep it that way. Like it was a big keep it that way. Like it was a big taboo to say, "Can I ask your age?" Um taboo to say, "Can I ask your age?" Um taboo to say, "Can I ask your age?" Um and to some degree it still is, but we and to some degree it still is, but we and to some degree it still is, but we all know we could go out and figure it all know we could go out and figure it all know we could go out and figure it out online if we wanted to. out online if we wanted to. out online if we wanted to. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. And the old George Clooney effect there. And the old George Clooney effect there. And the old George Clooney effect there. Very very few women who can pull that Very very few women who can pull that Very very few women who can pull that off and we can think of some like Meryl off and we can think of some like Meryl off and we can think of some like Meryl Streep or whatnot, but they've also Streep or whatnot, but they've also Streep or whatnot, but they've also never it's not necessarily been seen as never it's not necessarily been seen as never it's not necessarily been seen as sex symbols at a point in their careers. sex symbols at a point in their careers. sex symbols at a point in their careers. >> I don't know if you have seen, of course >> I don't know if you have seen, of course >> I don't know if you have seen, of course my feed since I was doing research on my feed since I was doing research on my feed since I was doing research on this book, my feed is filled with before this book, my feed is filled with before this book, my feed is filled with before and afters of plastic surgeries.

and afters of plastic surgeries. and afters of plastic surgeries. Um and all of these different aesthetic Um and all of these different aesthetic Um and all of these different aesthetic treatments cuz of stuff that I looked up treatments cuz of stuff that I looked up treatments cuz of stuff that I looked up online and and so it's like, "Wow, if I online and and so it's like, "Wow, if I online and and so it's like, "Wow, if I thought the internet was trying to thought the internet was trying to thought the internet was trying to convince me I could be ageless before." convince me I could be ageless before." convince me I could be ageless before." But it is funny, I shouldn't say funny. But it is funny, I shouldn't say funny. But it is funny, I shouldn't say funny. Uh Uh Uh but it is, it's funny to see some of the but it is, it's funny to see some of the but it is, it's funny to see some of the men in Hollywood. men in Hollywood. men in Hollywood. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> Ah. >> I don't know if you saw the Bradley >> I don't know if you saw the Bradley >> I don't know if you saw the Bradley Cooper thing recently. Cooper thing recently. Cooper thing recently. >> No, I did not see this. >> No, I did not see this. >> No, I did not see this. >> something weird to his face and and it's >> something weird to his face and and it's >> something weird to his face and and it's like, "Dude, you could have just you like, "Dude, you could have just you like, "Dude, you could have just you know, you could have aged naturally and know, you could have aged naturally and know, you could have aged naturally and women would have thought you were women would have thought you were women would have thought you were getting more attractive for at least the getting more attractive for at least the getting more attractive for at least the next 10 or 15 years." next 10 or 15 years." next 10 or 15 years." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So I think that the standards that women >> So I think that the standards that women >> So I think that the standards that women have been subjected to have been subjected to have been subjected to potentially will become more potentially will become more potentially will become more difficult for men to escape if the difficult for men to escape if the difficult for men to escape if the insanity continues. insanity continues. insanity continues. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Uh why do we see aging as a burden we Uh why do we see aging as a burden we Uh why do we see aging as a burden we need to relieve others from carrying? need to relieve others from carrying? need to relieve others from carrying? >> Yeah, from a personal standpoint. >> Yeah, from a personal standpoint. >> Yeah, from a personal standpoint. Um Um Um I think because we I think because we I think because we I think even if we have some awareness I think even if we have some awareness I think even if we have some awareness that care for the elderly is very that care for the elderly is very that care for the elderly is very similar to care for um babies at the similar to care for um babies at the similar to care for um babies at the beginning of life. And I don't say that beginning of life. And I don't say that beginning of life. And I don't say that in a derogatory way. The elderly are in a derogatory way. The elderly are in a derogatory way. The elderly are full adults and all of that, but this is full adults and all of that, but this is full adults and all of that, but this is one of the comparisons that I make in one of the comparisons that I make in one of the comparisons that I make in the book.

the book. the book. Even though you know that in your old Even though you know that in your old Even though you know that in your old age someone might need to change a age someone might need to change a age someone might need to change a diaper for you, feed you soft foods, diaper for you, feed you soft foods, diaper for you, feed you soft foods, you'd probably take a nap in the you'd probably take a nap in the you'd probably take a nap in the afternoon. I mean, so many similarities afternoon. I mean, so many similarities afternoon. I mean, so many similarities between late age and and the earlier between late age and and the earlier between late age and and the earlier stages of life. stages of life. stages of life. The idea that your children would would The idea that your children would would The idea that your children would would have to care for you in a parenting have to care for you in a parenting have to care for you in a parenting capacity of some kind is it just feels capacity of some kind is it just feels capacity of some kind is it just feels completely off, particularly I think in completely off, particularly I think in completely off, particularly I think in American culture where um we value American culture where um we value American culture where um we value self-sufficiency, a growth to self-sufficiency, a growth to self-sufficiency, a growth to independence, and we have we have independence, and we have we have independence, and we have we have somewhere along the way taken in the somewhere along the way taken in the somewhere along the way taken in the falsehood that we are supposed to grow falsehood that we are supposed to grow falsehood that we are supposed to grow to independence or autonomy, uh which of to independence or autonomy, uh which of to independence or autonomy, uh which of course we're never truly autonomous, but course we're never truly autonomous, but course we're never truly autonomous, but to the degree that we're able, and then to the degree that we're able, and then to the degree that we're able, and then we're supposed to never return to it. we're supposed to never return to it. we're supposed to never return to it. Or we have failed. Um and if we do Or we have failed. Um and if we do Or we have failed. Um and if we do return to it, then we don't want anyone return to it, then we don't want anyone return to it, then we don't want anyone else to have to deal with the else to have to deal with the else to have to deal with the implications of that because all of the implications of that because all of the implications of that because all of the same care that we rendered for babies, same care that we rendered for babies, same care that we rendered for babies, when you render it for someone at the when you render it for someone at the when you render it for someone at the end of life, the potentiality isn't end of life, the potentiality isn't end of life, the potentiality isn't there. There's no quote payback, so to there. There's no quote payback, so to there. There's no quote payback, so to speak, for for the labor, at least not speak, for for the labor, at least not speak, for for the labor, at least not not in terms of that person is is going not in terms of that person is is going not in terms of that person is is going to die. You know, they're not going to to die. You know, they're not going to to die. You know, they're not going to get better.

get better. get better. Um and so I do think that when we think Um and so I do think that when we think Um and so I do think that when we think about asking adult children or some about asking adult children or some about asking adult children or some other family member to provide that care other family member to provide that care other family member to provide that care to us, it feels like we are actually to us, it feels like we are actually to us, it feels like we are actually robbing them of something. robbing them of something. robbing them of something. We perceive no mutual benefit um, from We perceive no mutual benefit um, from We perceive no mutual benefit um, from that. And you can see this in the that. And you can see this in the that. And you can see this in the statistics on medically assisted, um, statistics on medically assisted, um, statistics on medically assisted, um, end-of-life in Canada. Um, the I think end-of-life in Canada. Um, the I think end-of-life in Canada. Um, the I think it's 30% of those who who request to be it's 30% of those who who request to be it's 30% of those who who request to be a part of MAID, MAID, a part of MAID, MAID, a part of MAID, MAID, do so because of a belief that they're a do so because of a belief that they're a do so because of a belief that they're a burden. burden. burden. >> So, let's just jump into that right >> So, let's just jump into that right >> So, let's just jump into that right there because that's a perfect segue. I there because that's a perfect segue. I there because that's a perfect segue. I wrote my newsletter, uh, recently about wrote my newsletter, uh, recently about wrote my newsletter, uh, recently about this phenomenon related to the defeat of this phenomenon related to the defeat of this phenomenon related to the defeat of assisted suicide in Scotland and then assisted suicide in Scotland and then assisted suicide in Scotland and then the House of Lords in the UK. the House of Lords in the UK. the House of Lords in the UK. And I was asking somebody involved in And I was asking somebody involved in And I was asking somebody involved in that in that fight because it's already that in that fight because it's already that in that fight because it's already legal in 13 US states and Washington legal in 13 US states and Washington legal in 13 US states and Washington D.C. It's also a a major cause of death D.C. It's also a a major cause of death D.C. It's also a a major cause of death in Canada right now. in Canada right now. in Canada right now. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And I remember asking what was it that >> And I remember asking what was it that >> And I remember asking what was it that was decisive in the defeat, unexpected was decisive in the defeat, unexpected was decisive in the defeat, unexpected defeat in the House of Lords, but then defeat in the House of Lords, but then defeat in the House of Lords, but then also, especially in the Scottish also, especially in the Scottish also, especially in the Scottish Parliament.

Parliament. Parliament. And I said, is it the people with And I said, is it the people with And I said, is it the people with disabilities that were protesting? Was disabilities that were protesting? Was disabilities that were protesting? Was it And he said, no, people don't really it And he said, no, people don't really it And he said, no, people don't really care about that. care about that. care about that. He said, the feminists turned against He said, the feminists turned against He said, the feminists turned against it. it. it. And he said, they put two and two And he said, they put two and two And he said, they put two and two together realizing that it is a woman's together realizing that it is a woman's together realizing that it is a woman's responsibility and burden to care for responsibility and burden to care for responsibility and burden to care for others her entire life. others her entire life. others her entire life. And they realized that once she once And they realized that once she once And they realized that once she once they became burdens to their families, they became burdens to their families, they became burdens to their families, especially to the men in their families, especially to the men in their families, especially to the men in their families, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> the men would >> the men would >> the men would pressure them into relieving them of the pressure them into relieving them of the pressure them into relieving them of the burden of having to care for them. burden of having to care for them. burden of having to care for them. And that's how they saw it. Is that And that's how they saw it. Is that And that's how they saw it. Is that surprising to you at all? surprising to you at all? surprising to you at all? >> No. No, I actually well, I mean, I think >> No. No, I actually well, I mean, I think >> No. No, I actually well, I mean, I think it's interesting that, um, feminists it's interesting that, um, feminists it's interesting that, um, feminists have have started to be able to connect have have started to be able to connect have have started to be able to connect the dots on some of the things that are the dots on some of the things that are the dots on some of the things that are sort of like baseline imago dei issues sort of like baseline imago dei issues sort of like baseline imago dei issues in in the church. Um I actually find it in in the church. Um I actually find it in in the church. Um I actually find it very encouraging because I would love very encouraging because I would love very encouraging because I would love for there to be within the church a for there to be within the church a for there to be within the church a pro-woman outlook pro-woman outlook pro-woman outlook um that doesn't have to be labeled um that doesn't have to be labeled um that doesn't have to be labeled feminist um feminist um feminist um uh with all of the negative connotations uh with all of the negative connotations uh with all of the negative connotations that third-wave feminism brings with it.

that third-wave feminism brings with it. that third-wave feminism brings with it. We've seen the feminists sort of like We've seen the feminists sort of like We've seen the feminists sort of like shake out of their stupor around shake out of their stupor around shake out of their stupor around transgender issues. And um uh a lot of transgender issues. And um uh a lot of transgender issues. And um uh a lot of the transgender conversation the transgender conversation the transgender conversation um runs parallel to um runs parallel to um runs parallel to our anti-aging mindset in the culture. our anti-aging mindset in the culture. our anti-aging mindset in the culture. And so it it doesn't completely surprise And so it it doesn't completely surprise And so it it doesn't completely surprise me. me. me. Um Um Um but it it is gratifying to find strange but it it is gratifying to find strange but it it is gratifying to find strange allies, I guess I would say. allies, I guess I would say. allies, I guess I would say. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, I I don't think before your book I Yeah, I I don't think before your book I Yeah, I I don't think before your book I could have quite understood it exactly could have quite understood it exactly could have quite understood it exactly that way. that way. that way. Um but when it comes from the mentality Um but when it comes from the mentality Um but when it comes from the mentality of don't want somebody to be a I don't of don't want somebody to be a I don't of don't want somebody to be a I don't want to feel like a burden and then want to feel like a burden and then want to feel like a burden and then others will treat you like a burden, others will treat you like a burden, others will treat you like a burden, including your own sons or your own including your own sons or your own including your own sons or your own husband or husband or husband or >> Well, and I think one of the reasons >> Well, and I think one of the reasons >> Well, and I think one of the reasons that um the feminists woke up before that um the feminists woke up before that um the feminists woke up before somebody else did is because and I've somebody else did is because and I've somebody else did is because and I've talked about this a ton. I don't get talked about this a ton. I don't get talked about this a ton. I don't get into it a lot in the book, but about um into it a lot in the book, but about um into it a lot in the book, but about um it's the adult experience of women not it's the adult experience of women not it's the adult experience of women not to outgrow to outgrow to outgrow um interdependence, like to not outgrow um interdependence, like to not outgrow um interdependence, like to not outgrow our vulnerability. Um physically our vulnerability. Um physically our vulnerability. Um physically speaking, it is the purview of men to speaking, it is the purview of men to speaking, it is the purview of men to outgrow vulnerability. And so it's outgrow vulnerability. And so it's outgrow vulnerability. And so it's interesting, too, because it was a interesting, too, because it was a interesting, too, because it was a feminist who I heard observe uh and feminist who I heard observe uh and feminist who I heard observe uh and during a podcast that I was listening to during a podcast that I was listening to during a podcast that I was listening to um observe that um the only way that an um observe that um the only way that an um observe that um the only way that an adult male rediscovers that he is not in adult male rediscovers that he is not in adult male rediscovers that he is not in fact autonomous is if he lives long fact autonomous is if he lives long fact autonomous is if he lives long enough to age out of autonomy.

enough to age out of autonomy. enough to age out of autonomy. Uh but it's the reality of women our Uh but it's the reality of women our Uh but it's the reality of women our entire lives. We walk down a dark alley entire lives. We walk down a dark alley entire lives. We walk down a dark alley with a different mindset than a with a different mindset than a with a different mindset than a full-grown man does. And so um anytime full-grown man does. And so um anytime full-grown man does. And so um anytime you have an intuitive understanding of you have an intuitive understanding of you have an intuitive understanding of vulnerability, and that's not a ding vulnerability, and that's not a ding vulnerability, and that's not a ding against men. I actually think there's a against men. I actually think there's a against men. I actually think there's a reason. I mean, that's that's pre-fall reason. I mean, that's that's pre-fall reason. I mean, that's that's pre-fall design that men design that men design that men grow to relative autonomy in a way that grow to relative autonomy in a way that grow to relative autonomy in a way that women don't. But, I do think it means women don't. But, I do think it means women don't. But, I do think it means that it's not surprising to find that that it's not surprising to find that that it's not surprising to find that adults who don't are the first to start adults who don't are the first to start adults who don't are the first to start to recognize the analogs. And you know, to recognize the analogs. And you know, to recognize the analogs. And you know, even since finishing the manuscript even since finishing the manuscript even since finishing the manuscript increasing I think I I mentioned it in increasing I think I I mentioned it in increasing I think I I mentioned it in passing in the book, but anyone who has passing in the book, but anyone who has passing in the book, but anyone who has walked through the thought processes walked through the thought processes walked through the thought processes around how we dignify those with special around how we dignify those with special around how we dignify those with special needs, whether children or adults, needs, whether children or adults, needs, whether children or adults, can make a pretty quick connection to can make a pretty quick connection to can make a pretty quick connection to the fact that aging that goes into the fact that aging that goes into the fact that aging that goes into extremity extremity extremity is is essentially similar. is is essentially similar. is is essentially similar. That that vulnerability that you that That that vulnerability that you that That that vulnerability that you that you experience, it can be cognitive as you experience, it can be cognitive as you experience, it can be cognitive as well as physical. And so, if we don't well as physical. And so, if we don't well as physical. And so, if we don't get it right get it right get it right with senior adults, with senior adults, with senior adults, those of us who call ourselves whole those of us who call ourselves whole those of us who call ourselves whole life pro-life supporters are really only life pro-life supporters are really only life pro-life supporters are really only giving lip service to that because giving lip service to that because giving lip service to that because in particular with the way statistics in particular with the way statistics in particular with the way statistics are looking with the population, are looking with the population, are looking with the population, we're going to have to figure out what we're going to have to figure out what we're going to have to figure out what it means to say, actually we're built to it means to say, actually we're built to it means to say, actually we're built to burden one another.

burden one another. burden one another. Although I would argue it's not a it's Although I would argue it's not a it's Although I would argue it's not a it's not a burden strictly speaking. It's a not a burden strictly speaking. It's a not a burden strictly speaking. It's a heavy thing to carry, but it's what heavy thing to carry, but it's what heavy thing to carry, but it's what we're built for. we're built for. we're built for. >> Well, this feels like peak Jen Wilkin, >> Well, this feels like peak Jen Wilkin, >> Well, this feels like peak Jen Wilkin, the chiasm of life. Okay? [laughter] the chiasm of life. Okay? [laughter] the chiasm of life. Okay? [laughter] So, and it's and it's it's brilliant So, and it's and it's it's brilliant So, and it's and it's it's brilliant because all of a sudden, I mean, your because all of a sudden, I mean, your because all of a sudden, I mean, your your title Dust to Dust is so excellent. your title Dust to Dust is so excellent. your title Dust to Dust is so excellent. But, when you put it in the context of But, when you put it in the context of But, when you put it in the context of the chiasm of life, it becomes it may the chiasm of life, it becomes it may the chiasm of life, it becomes it may you know, draws out comes out even more. you know, draws out comes out even more. you know, draws out comes out even more. I just can't believe Jen I haven't I just can't believe Jen I haven't I just can't believe Jen I haven't I've never heard of life explained this I've never heard of life explained this I've never heard of life explained this way, never kind of seen that way, never kind of seen that way, never kind of seen that experientially or biblically myself. So, experientially or biblically myself. So, experientially or biblically myself. So, I want you to to one, just explain what I want you to to one, just explain what I want you to to one, just explain what is the chiasm of life, but then number is the chiasm of life, but then number is the chiasm of life, but then number two, two, two, of course, the in terms of biblical of course, the in terms of biblical of course, the in terms of biblical interpretation, the middle is what we're interpretation, the middle is what we're interpretation, the middle is what we're being drawn our attention being drawn our attention being drawn our attention our attention's being drawn to, our attention's being drawn to, our attention's being drawn to, typically, and you have middle age. typically, and you have middle age. typically, and you have middle age. There's what's the significance of that? There's what's the significance of that? There's what's the significance of that? >> Okay, so just chiasm 101 is um it's a >> Okay, so just chiasm 101 is um it's a >> Okay, so just chiasm 101 is um it's a form of form of form of ancient Near Eastern parallelism, which ancient Near Eastern parallelism, which ancient Near Eastern parallelism, which I thought every PhD theologian is going I thought every PhD theologian is going I thought every PhD theologian is going to just hate that I paid more attention to just hate that I paid more attention to just hate that I paid more attention to chiasm. They they do not love them.

to chiasm. They they do not love them. to chiasm. They they do not love them. Um and we have a I have a I have a Um and we have a I have a I have a Um and we have a I have a I have a gentle disagreement about their gentle disagreement about their gentle disagreement about their importance because importance because importance because um chiasm's basically a form of um chiasm's basically a form of um chiasm's basically a form of parallelism that is different from what parallelism that is different from what parallelism that is different from what we're used to in in the modern West. we're used to in in the modern West. we're used to in in the modern West. We're accustomed to a joke with a We're accustomed to a joke with a We're accustomed to a joke with a punchline at the end or a um a story punchline at the end or a um a story punchline at the end or a um a story with a moral at the end. We expect end with a moral at the end. We expect end with a moral at the end. We expect end stress that you find out the the main stress that you find out the the main stress that you find out the the main point when you get through the whole point when you get through the whole point when you get through the whole story. But a chiasm is different. It story. But a chiasm is different. It story. But a chiasm is different. It starts with these exterior parallels and starts with these exterior parallels and starts with these exterior parallels and then it moves inward in sort of like then it moves inward in sort of like then it moves inward in sort of like concentric layers until it you hit the concentric layers until it you hit the concentric layers until it you hit the midpoint, and the midpoint is actually midpoint, and the midpoint is actually midpoint, and the midpoint is actually typically the the main idea. So a really typically the the main idea. So a really typically the the main idea. So a really use usually one people can recognize is use usually one people can recognize is use usually one people can recognize is uh Psalm 139. uh Psalm 139. uh Psalm 139. It opens with, "O Lord, you have It opens with, "O Lord, you have It opens with, "O Lord, you have searched me and known me." searched me and known me." searched me and known me." Um it ends with, "Search me and know me, Um it ends with, "Search me and know me, Um it ends with, "Search me and know me, O God." And so um you can map parallels O God." And so um you can map parallels O God." And so um you can map parallels into the middle of this very well-loved into the middle of this very well-loved into the middle of this very well-loved and well-known Psalm. and well-known Psalm. and well-known Psalm. Um but if if I hear this Psalm taught, Um but if if I hear this Psalm taught, Um but if if I hear this Psalm taught, most likely what I'm going to hear is most likely what I'm going to hear is most likely what I'm going to hear is that the main point of the Psalm is um that the main point of the Psalm is um that the main point of the Psalm is um "I am fearfully and wonderfully made."

"I am fearfully and wonderfully made." "I am fearfully and wonderfully made." But actually the center stress falls on But actually the center stress falls on But actually the center stress falls on um the line after that, which is um the line after that, which is um the line after that, which is "Wonderful are your works, my soul knows "Wonderful are your works, my soul knows "Wonderful are your works, my soul knows it full well." Um the emphasis is on who it full well." Um the emphasis is on who it full well." Um the emphasis is on who God is, not on the creature. Um and so God is, not on the creature. Um and so God is, not on the creature. Um and so it does matter that we pay attention, it does matter that we pay attention, it does matter that we pay attention, and and I think the reason that um you and and I think the reason that um you and and I think the reason that um you can find these structures all over the can find these structures all over the can find these structures all over the Old and New Testament is because those Old and New Testament is because those Old and New Testament is because those original, um, receivers of those words original, um, receivers of those words original, um, receivers of those words didn't hold a copy of the Bible in their didn't hold a copy of the Bible in their didn't hold a copy of the Bible in their hands for their entire None of them did. hands for their entire None of them did. hands for their entire None of them did. They They heard the Bible read to them. They They heard the Bible read to them. They They heard the Bible read to them. And so, I think that the chiastic And so, I think that the chiastic And so, I think that the chiastic structure is a is the Lord's kindness structure is a is the Lord's kindness structure is a is the Lord's kindness to an auditory, um, recipient. to an auditory, um, recipient. to an auditory, um, recipient. It's It's a memory tool. It's It's a memory tool. It's It's a memory tool. Um, but also I think that the reason we Um, but also I think that the reason we Um, but also I think that the reason we see it see it see it everywhere and that it appeals so much everywhere and that it appeals so much everywhere and that it appeals so much Like you have to kind of ask, "What's Like you have to kind of ask, "What's Like you have to kind of ask, "What's the appeal of it to these these ancient the appeal of it to these these ancient the appeal of it to these these ancient writers?" And I think it's because it's writers?" And I think it's because it's writers?" And I think it's because it's easily observable easily observable easily observable it in in nature itself. Like natural it in in nature itself. Like natural it in in nature itself. Like natural revelation testifies to it. So, um, a revelation testifies to it. So, um, a revelation testifies to it. So, um, a sunrise and a sunset look very similar.

sunrise and a sunset look very similar. sunrise and a sunset look very similar. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> They're same, but different. Um, and so, >> They're same, but different. Um, and so, >> They're same, but different. Um, and so, then you start to think, "Wait a minute. then you start to think, "Wait a minute. then you start to think, "Wait a minute. What about human life?" And for me, this What about human life?" And for me, this What about human life?" And for me, this moment came, uh, with the death of my moment came, uh, with the death of my moment came, uh, with the death of my mother when she was 80 years old. And I mother when she was 80 years old. And I mother when she was 80 years old. And I sat at her bedside and the hospice nurse sat at her bedside and the hospice nurse sat at her bedside and the hospice nurse said I could coach her through the labor said I could coach her through the labor said I could coach her through the labor of dying. of dying. of dying. Um, and then sat there and listened to Um, and then sat there and listened to Um, and then sat there and listened to the labored breathing. the labored breathing. the labored breathing. Um, heard that Um, heard that Um, heard that giant exhale and a crashing silence. giant exhale and a crashing silence. giant exhale and a crashing silence. And in the days and weeks after And in the days and weeks after And in the days and weeks after processing this sacred moment, I just processing this sacred moment, I just processing this sacred moment, I just kept thinking about how her life had kept thinking about how her life had kept thinking about how her life had begun in a same but different way with a begun in a same but different way with a begun in a same but different way with a giant inhale and this this wail that giant inhale and this this wail that giant inhale and this this wail that announced the beginning of life. Um, and announced the beginning of life. Um, and announced the beginning of life. Um, and so, then I got curious and I thought, "I so, then I got curious and I thought, "I so, then I got curious and I thought, "I wonder if you couldn't map this inward." wonder if you couldn't map this inward." wonder if you couldn't map this inward." Um, Um, Um, and that's what I do in the book. I map and that's what I do in the book. I map and that's what I do in the book. I map it inward. We look at each little layer it inward. We look at each little layer it inward. We look at each little layer of life and the similarities. So, you of life and the similarities. So, you of life and the similarities. So, you know, I won't go through all of them know, I won't go through all of them know, I won't go through all of them here in the here in the here in the in the interview, but, um, for example, in the interview, but, um, for example, in the interview, but, um, for example, adolescence, think about all of you adolescence, think about all of you adolescence, think about all of you know, you go through hormonal changes, know, you go through hormonal changes, know, you go through hormonal changes, you get a driver's license, you win all you get a driver's license, you win all you get a driver's license, you win all of these independent of these independent of these independent uh abilities and and right right to uh abilities and and right right to uh abilities and and right right to passage, and then at the other end of passage, and then at the other end of passage, and then at the other end of life, um when you're in senior life, um when you're in senior life, um when you're in senior adulthood, you're giving all of those adulthood, you're giving all of those adulthood, you're giving all of those things back.

things back. things back. Um and it's so funny cuz even in um Um and it's so funny cuz even in um Um and it's so funny cuz even in um helping care for my aging parents, helping care for my aging parents, helping care for my aging parents, um you know, we've joked uh other other um you know, we've joked uh other other um you know, we've joked uh other other adult children my age, we've joked with adult children my age, we've joked with adult children my age, we've joked with each other about how non-compliant they each other about how non-compliant they each other about how non-compliant they can be. If you try to force a rule on can be. If you try to force a rule on can be. If you try to force a rule on them, you know, like, "Hey, man, them, you know, like, "Hey, man, them, you know, like, "Hey, man, uh you don't need to be driving at night uh you don't need to be driving at night uh you don't need to be driving at night anymore." And they're like, "You don't anymore." And they're like, "You don't anymore." And they're like, "You don't tell me what to do." And and I just tell me what to do." And and I just tell me what to do." And and I just think, "Gosh, I would have been a way think, "Gosh, I would have been a way think, "Gosh, I would have been a way worse." I was a super obedient teenager worse." I was a super obedient teenager worse." I was a super obedient teenager and I, you know, maybe I should have and I, you know, maybe I should have and I, you know, maybe I should have should have gone back and should have gone back and should have gone back and you know, taken my shot uh back in the you know, taken my shot uh back in the you know, taken my shot uh back in the day of being rebellious. And and so, you day of being rebellious. And and so, you day of being rebellious. And and so, you know, it's funny, but it's also um it it know, it's funny, but it's also um it it know, it's funny, but it's also um it it helps stir compassion in you because helps stir compassion in you because helps stir compassion in you because a senior adult is not an adolescent. a senior adult is not an adolescent. a senior adult is not an adolescent. They're a they're a human with years and They're a they're a human with years and They're a they're a human with years and years and years of lived experience. And years and years of lived experience. And years and years of lived experience. And so, they're they're due so, they're they're due so, they're they're due uh a degree of respect. Um uh a degree of respect. Um uh a degree of respect. Um they are they will never be your child, they are they will never be your child, they are they will never be your child, even if some of the ways that you even if some of the ways that you even if some of the ways that you provide care for them are echoes of the provide care for them are echoes of the provide care for them are echoes of the kind of care they provided for you when kind of care they provided for you when kind of care they provided for you when you were an adolescent.

you were an adolescent. you were an adolescent. Um but I do think that it's um Um but I do think that it's um Um but I do think that it's um contingent on adult children contingent on adult children contingent on adult children to be mindful that when parents were to be mindful that when parents were to be mindful that when parents were making those sacrifices when you were a making those sacrifices when you were a making those sacrifices when you were a newborn, when you were a newborn, when you were a newborn, when you were a uh toddler, uh an elementary age child, uh toddler, uh an elementary age child, uh toddler, uh an elementary age child, an adolescent, they did so without a an adolescent, they did so without a an adolescent, they did so without a thought for the cost. thought for the cost. thought for the cost. And that as adult children caring for And that as adult children caring for And that as adult children caring for them in their extremity, we should do them in their extremity, we should do them in their extremity, we should do our best to do the same. our best to do the same. our best to do the same. >> Um what about the midpoint then? The >> Um what about the midpoint then? The >> Um what about the midpoint then? The middle stress, is that just because the middle stress, is that just because the middle stress, is that just because the overlap of care hits there? You're overlap of care hits there? You're overlap of care hits there? You're caring for children and you're caring caring for children and you're caring caring for children and you're caring for parents? for parents? for parents? >> Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly, it >> Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly, it >> Yeah, I mean, you know, honestly, it depends. Uh the um the chiasm is a it's depends. Uh the um the chiasm is a it's depends. Uh the um the chiasm is a it's a guide, but obviously we know a guide, but obviously we know a guide, but obviously we know everybody's lives bring different everybody's lives bring different everybody's lives bring different variations of this to them, but we can variations of this to them, but we can variations of this to them, but we can recognize the general pattern. And I I recognize the general pattern. And I I recognize the general pattern. And I I really struggled with that after I really struggled with that after I really struggled with that after I started to see how many um close started to see how many um close started to see how many um close connections there were between beginning connections there were between beginning connections there were between beginning and end, you know, on either side of um and end, you know, on either side of um and end, you know, on either side of um the midpoint. And um the midpoint. And um the midpoint. And um and to ask myself, well, so then does and to ask myself, well, so then does and to ask myself, well, so then does that mean that the main point of life is that mean that the main point of life is that mean that the main point of life is midlife? That didn't sound right.

midlife? That didn't sound right. midlife? That didn't sound right. Um and I think as someone who is just Um and I think as someone who is just Um and I think as someone who is just past that point, I flatter myself, I'm past that point, I flatter myself, I'm past that point, I flatter myself, I'm 57, so I'm not going to live to be 114, 57, so I'm not going to live to be 114, 57, so I'm not going to live to be 114, so I guess I'm considerably past it at so I guess I'm considerably past it at so I guess I'm considerably past it at this point. Uh but I think that this point. Uh but I think that this point. Uh but I think that midlife is you know, we talk about being midlife is you know, we talk about being midlife is you know, we talk about being over the hill. Um so which there again, over the hill. Um so which there again, over the hill. Um so which there again, there's that innate sense of oh, there's there's that innate sense of oh, there's there's that innate sense of oh, there's a curve to this. And um I think at a curve to this. And um I think at a curve to this. And um I think at midlife you're right at the pinnacle. midlife you're right at the pinnacle. midlife you're right at the pinnacle. And if you've ever hiked uh a ridgeline And if you've ever hiked uh a ridgeline And if you've ever hiked uh a ridgeline or a mountain top, you know that when or a mountain top, you know that when or a mountain top, you know that when you're up at that top point is when you you're up at that top point is when you you're up at that top point is when you gain perspective both on the way you gain perspective both on the way you gain perspective both on the way you came and on the way you have to go to came and on the way you have to go to came and on the way you have to go to get back down. And so I think that all get back down. And so I think that all get back down. And so I think that all of the second half of life is filled of the second half of life is filled of the second half of life is filled with that kind of perspective, but with that kind of perspective, but with that kind of perspective, but midlife is perhaps the first and best midlife is perhaps the first and best midlife is perhaps the first and best opportunity opportunity opportunity to to weigh it and then to start living to to weigh it and then to start living to to weigh it and then to start living according to it. Now, I think there are according to it. Now, I think there are according to it. Now, I think there are people who will do it before midlife, people who will do it before midlife, people who will do it before midlife, and that's a gift. Um but midlife is and that's a gift. Um but midlife is and that's a gift. Um but midlife is kind of like maybe your first best kind of like maybe your first best kind of like maybe your first best chance and in some ways your last best chance and in some ways your last best chance and in some ways your last best chance to to to grab perspective. We've chance to to to grab perspective. We've chance to to to grab perspective. We've seen plenty of people hit midlife and seen plenty of people hit midlife and seen plenty of people hit midlife and toss perspective to the wind and buy a toss perspective to the wind and buy a toss perspective to the wind and buy a sports car and get a new wife, etc., sports car and get a new wife, etc., sports car and get a new wife, etc., etc.

etc. etc. Um and how unseemly for the children of Um and how unseemly for the children of Um and how unseemly for the children of God to operate according to the same um God to operate according to the same um God to operate according to the same um panic buttons as the rest of the world. panic buttons as the rest of the world. panic buttons as the rest of the world. >> I I can that perspective imagery is so >> I I can that perspective imagery is so >> I I can that perspective imagery is so perfect because perfect because perfect because you're you're you're you're understanding so much more about you're understanding so much more about you're understanding so much more about what you went through growing up what you went through growing up what you went through growing up but you're and then relating to your but you're and then relating to your but you're and then relating to your parents through that but as you're parents through that but as you're parents through that but as you're relating to your parents in a new way relating to your parents in a new way relating to your parents in a new way with greater appreciation but also with greater appreciation but also with greater appreciation but also watching them do the same things that watching them do the same things that watching them do the same things that your children are doing. Like you said, your children are doing. Like you said, your children are doing. Like you said, diff- same but different in there. diff- same but different in there. diff- same but different in there. So you're looking you see both sides. So you're looking you see both sides. So you're looking you see both sides. >> Yeah, and there's a temptation to >> Yeah, and there's a temptation to >> Yeah, and there's a temptation to infantilize your parents, you know. Um infantilize your parents, you know. Um infantilize your parents, you know. Um and I think too if we don't bear in mind and I think too if we don't bear in mind and I think too if we don't bear in mind what they did for us, we'll be slow to what they did for us, we'll be slow to what they did for us, we'll be slow to return the favor. And I think you know, return the favor. And I think you know, return the favor. And I think you know, it's so funny when I'm giving parenting it's so funny when I'm giving parenting it's so funny when I'm giving parenting advice to younger parents, I'm always advice to younger parents, I'm always advice to younger parents, I'm always saying, "Hey, don't don't miss that saying, "Hey, don't don't miss that saying, "Hey, don't don't miss that turning point from um turning point from um turning point from um for lack of a better term rule um rule for lack of a better term rule um rule for lack of a better term rule um rule giver to consultant, right? So somewhere giver to consultant, right? So somewhere giver to consultant, right? So somewhere around middle school you start putting around middle school you start putting around middle school you start putting that monkey on their back, probably a that monkey on their back, probably a that monkey on their back, probably a little before that so that they're little before that so that they're little before that so that they're taking on responsibility.

taking on responsibility. taking on responsibility. And um I'm learning now that on the And um I'm learning now that on the And um I'm learning now that on the other side of the of the curve, um there other side of the of the curve, um there other side of the of the curve, um there is a point at which you have to start is a point at which you have to start is a point at which you have to start recognizing the age your parents are and recognizing the age your parents are and recognizing the age your parents are and that while they have always been the one that while they have always been the one that while they have always been the one who took care of you, it's time for you who took care of you, it's time for you who took care of you, it's time for you to start actively anticipating how they to start actively anticipating how they to start actively anticipating how they will need you to take care of them. And will need you to take care of them. And will need you to take care of them. And it's another one of those pivotal it's another one of those pivotal it's another one of those pivotal moments where if you miss it, you're moments where if you miss it, you're moments where if you miss it, you're going to going to going to um you're going to expect something of um you're going to expect something of um you're going to expect something of them they're no longer able to do and them they're no longer able to do and them they're no longer able to do and you're going to feel frustration or you're going to feel frustration or you're going to feel frustration or disappointment or confusion. disappointment or confusion. disappointment or confusion. Um or you might actually move toward it Um or you might actually move toward it Um or you might actually move toward it too quickly and start thinking that too quickly and start thinking that too quickly and start thinking that you're supposed to parent them. And and you're supposed to parent them. And and you're supposed to parent them. And and neither of those things are true. Uh and neither of those things are true. Uh and neither of those things are true. Uh and so it's a very delicate um so it's a very delicate um so it's a very delicate um it's a very delicate assessment, but I it's a very delicate assessment, but I it's a very delicate assessment, but I think we walk toward it with a lot more think we walk toward it with a lot more think we walk toward it with a lot more compassion and wisdom if we've been good compassion and wisdom if we've been good compassion and wisdom if we've been good students of how the first half of life students of how the first half of life students of how the first half of life went. went. went. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Well, it's so Well, it's so Well, it's so personal uh for me, Jen. Yesterday uh personal uh for me, Jen. Yesterday uh personal uh for me, Jen. Yesterday uh when we're recording this, we're just when we're recording this, we're just when we're recording this, we're just following Mother's Day.

following Mother's Day. following Mother's Day. And um yesterday having uh lunch with my And um yesterday having uh lunch with my And um yesterday having uh lunch with my mother-in-law, we were simultaneously mother-in-law, we were simultaneously mother-in-law, we were simultaneously talking a lot about the kids. My talking a lot about the kids. My talking a lot about the kids. My youngest is four, youngest is four, youngest is four, and she does a lot to help and care and and she does a lot to help and care and and she does a lot to help and care and spend time with those kids, which is spend time with those kids, which is spend time with those kids, which is something you talk about in the book. something you talk about in the book. something you talk about in the book. We'll get to you a little bit later. We'll get to you a little bit later. We'll get to you a little bit later. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> And at the same time, we were talking >> And at the same time, we were talking >> And at the same time, we were talking about the home that she wants to move about the home that she wants to move about the home that she wants to move into. She's 81. into. She's 81. into. She's 81. Uh we're you know, she was describing Uh we're you know, she was describing Uh we're you know, she was describing where and she's not ready to go there where and she's not ready to go there where and she's not ready to go there now, and nobody thinks that she is. now, and nobody thinks that she is. now, and nobody thinks that she is. Um but we were talking about this new Um but we were talking about this new Um but we were talking about this new development going in, and she's saying, development going in, and she's saying, development going in, and she's saying, "That's where I want to go." "That's where I want to go." "That's where I want to go." That's the first time we'd had that That's the first time we'd had that That's the first time we'd had that conversation. So, we're having both of conversation. So, we're having both of conversation. So, we're having both of those conversations at the same time. those conversations at the same time. those conversations at the same time. Now, because of lifespans, those Now, because of lifespans, those Now, because of lifespans, those conversations are not normally happening conversations are not normally happening conversations are not normally happening in that same way. in that same way. in that same way. Um which you also talk about in the book Um which you also talk about in the book Um which you also talk about in the book because for infertility reasons, my wife because for infertility reasons, my wife because for infertility reasons, my wife and I were later with kids, and then she and I were later with kids, and then she and I were later with kids, and then she was also later with kids. So, that's why was also later with kids. So, that's why was also later with kids. So, that's why we have the you know, much wider we have the you know, much wider we have the you know, much wider expanse, almost like a generation that's expanse, almost like a generation that's expanse, almost like a generation that's missing missing missing >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> in there somewhere. But um yeah, just >> in there somewhere. But um yeah, just >> in there somewhere. But um yeah, just this book hit me personally in so many this book hit me personally in so many this book hit me personally in so many different ways, probably because of that different ways, probably because of that different ways, probably because of that place in midpoint where I'm I'm out of place in midpoint where I'm I'm out of place in midpoint where I'm I'm out of the the diaper phase on the one end, the the diaper phase on the one end, the the diaper phase on the one end, >> Yeah.

>> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> but >> but >> but not far from it on the other. not far from it on the other. not far from it on the other. >> Yes. How old are you? >> Yes. How old are you? >> Yes. How old are you? >> Uh 45. >> Uh 45. >> Uh 45. Yeah, 45. Yeah, 45. Yeah, 45. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Just turned 45. Also a middle-aged dad >> Just turned 45. Also a middle-aged dad >> Just turned 45. Also a middle-aged dad thing to have no idea how old you are. thing to have no idea how old you are. thing to have no idea how old you are. >> Yeah, but you are seriously, you're like >> Yeah, but you are seriously, you're like >> Yeah, but you are seriously, you're like right at the middle, you know, you are right at the middle, you know, you are right at the middle, you know, you are you are you're the middle life example. you are you're the middle life example. you are you're the middle life example. And you actually fit with the way the And you actually fit with the way the And you actually fit with the way the book is written fairly, you know, that book is written fairly, you know, that book is written fairly, you know, that sort of that general sense of it, other sort of that general sense of it, other sort of that general sense of it, other than that your your children are younger than that your your children are younger than that your your children are younger and your your uh and your your uh and your your uh your parents are a little older. And it your parents are a little older. And it your parents are a little older. And it is hard, and I think it you know, you is hard, and I think it you know, you is hard, and I think it you know, you guys had infertility issues. It's guys had infertility issues. It's guys had infertility issues. It's fascinating to me how many people delay fascinating to me how many people delay fascinating to me how many people delay childbearing on purpose childbearing on purpose childbearing on purpose um um um without any thought for how it might without any thought for how it might without any thought for how it might impact their ability to care for impact their ability to care for impact their ability to care for um um um for those those they love at the end of for those those they love at the end of for those those they love at the end of life and and I will say I would have life and and I will say I would have life and and I will say I would have this would have been me if Jeff Wilkin this would have been me if Jeff Wilkin this would have been me if Jeff Wilkin had not said, "Hey, shouldn't we start had not said, "Hey, shouldn't we start had not said, "Hey, shouldn't we start having kids?" I'm like, "Hey, I'm I got having kids?" I'm like, "Hey, I'm I got having kids?" I'm like, "Hey, I'm I got stuff to do. You know, we're doing that stuff to do. You know, we're doing that stuff to do. You know, we're doing that now?" And now?" And now?" And so I don't I can't be harsh on people, so I don't I can't be harsh on people, so I don't I can't be harsh on people, but I can say that in my mind I I had no but I can say that in my mind I I had no but I can say that in my mind I I had no thought for caring for my parents. My thought for caring for my parents. My thought for caring for my parents. My parents didn't want me to to think about parents didn't want me to to think about parents didn't want me to to think about caring for them. Their worst nightmare caring for them. Their worst nightmare caring for them. Their worst nightmare was that they would ever become a burden was that they would ever become a burden was that they would ever become a burden to us. And so not only did I not have to us. And so not only did I not have to us. And so not only did I not have that expectation, they didn't have that that expectation, they didn't have that that expectation, they didn't have that expectation. Now thankfully that has expectation. Now thankfully that has expectation. Now thankfully that has changed, but changed, but changed, but >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> it has been easier to care for them >> it has been easier to care for them >> it has been easier to care for them without without without having to care for my own child I am having to care for my own child I am having to care for my own child I am caring also for grandchildren at this caring also for grandchildren at this caring also for grandchildren at this point. So I'm you know, I'm straddling a point. So I'm you know, I'm straddling a point. So I'm you know, I'm straddling a couple of generations as well. But

couple of generations as well. But couple of generations as well. But happily so I have the discretionary time happily so I have the discretionary time happily so I have the discretionary time to do it because of where my adult to do it because of where my adult to do it because of where my adult children are in life. children are in life. children are in life. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, well, interestingly who I was Yeah, well, interestingly who I was Yeah, well, interestingly who I was describing there for Mother's Day, describing there for Mother's Day, describing there for Mother's Day, that's my mother-in-law. My own mother that's my mother-in-law. My own mother that's my mother-in-law. My own mother is So my my in-laws and my parents are is So my my in-laws and my parents are is So my my in-laws and my parents are at both ends of the boomer spectrum. at both ends of the boomer spectrum. at both ends of the boomer spectrum. Youngest and oldest. So my parents are Youngest and oldest. So my parents are Youngest and oldest. So my parents are My mom was 22 when she had me. My mom was 22 when she had me. My mom was 22 when she had me. So very different there. So even with So very different there. So even with So very different there. So even with the both sides of parents who are all the both sides of parents who are all the both sides of parents who are all still living, still living, still living, very different concerns for both of very different concerns for both of very different concerns for both of them. Very different stages. To be in them. Very different stages. To be in them. Very different stages. To be in your mid to late 60s is not the same as your mid to late 60s is not the same as your mid to late 60s is not the same as being in your early 80s. Though they're being in your early 80s. Though they're being in your early 80s. Though they're still all healthy and all in their homes still all healthy and all in their homes still all healthy and all in their homes with any changes there, but with any changes there, but with any changes there, but I just thought this this book is so I just thought this this book is so I just thought this this book is so incredibly helpful for all the different incredibly helpful for all the different incredibly helpful for all the different ways that it roots you biblically and ways that it roots you biblically and ways that it roots you biblically and theologically and historically and theologically and historically and theologically and historically and culturally, but also helps you to apply culturally, but also helps you to apply culturally, but also helps you to apply things personally to wherever you are in things personally to wherever you are in things personally to wherever you are in that in that chiasm. I don't think that in that chiasm. I don't think that in that chiasm. I don't think I don't I don't know exactly who I'd I don't I don't know exactly who I'd I don't I don't know exactly who I'd recommend the book to specifically recommend the book to specifically recommend the book to specifically because as I look at it I think, well, because as I look at it I think, well, because as I look at it I think, well, if you're in middle age, whether my if you're in middle age, whether my if you're in middle age, whether my middle age or your middle-age, is very middle age or your middle-age, is very middle age or your middle-age, is very applicable in multiple directions. But applicable in multiple directions. But applicable in multiple directions. But if you're younger, like you just said if you're younger, like you just said if you're younger, like you just said right there, it might help you make right there, it might help you make right there, it might help you make different decisions about marriage and different decisions about marriage and different decisions about marriage and child-bearing.

child-bearing. child-bearing. You might think about things you had You might think about things you had You might think about things you had taken for granted because of our taken for granted because of our taken for granted because of our culture. And at the same time, if you're culture. And at the same time, if you're culture. And at the same time, if you're older, older, older, it might actually also give you quite a it might actually also give you quite a it might actually also give you quite a bit of perspective bit of perspective bit of perspective on on what you're going through and what on on what you're going through and what on on what you're going through and what other people who love you are going other people who love you are going other people who love you are going through in your own aging experience. through in your own aging experience. through in your own aging experience. >> I think the thing that I just kept >> I think the thing that I just kept >> I think the thing that I just kept running into as I was writing the book running into as I was writing the book running into as I was writing the book was how I had naively thought that was how I had naively thought that was how I had naively thought that caregiving was like this one window of caregiving was like this one window of caregiving was like this one window of time in my life. time in my life. time in my life. >> Oh, good point. >> Oh, good point. >> Oh, good point. >> You know, like when my when my own >> You know, like when my when my own >> You know, like when my when my own children were little. And you know how children were little. And you know how children were little. And you know how they're like, "Oh, you only have them they're like, "Oh, you only have them they're like, "Oh, you only have them for 18 years." And so you kind of get in for 18 years." And so you kind of get in for 18 years." And so you kind of get in your head, I'll have these caregiving your head, I'll have these caregiving your head, I'll have these caregiving years and then I'll be I'll be an empty years and then I'll be I'll be an empty years and then I'll be I'll be an empty nester and I'll be free to travel the nester and I'll be free to travel the nester and I'll be free to travel the world or do whatever. world or do whatever. world or do whatever. Um and then eventually I will die. And Um and then eventually I will die. And Um and then eventually I will die. And um what what um what what um what what what just kept coming apparent to me was what just kept coming apparent to me was what just kept coming apparent to me was not only that all of life is caregiving not only that all of life is caregiving not only that all of life is caregiving for most of us, but what a gift that for most of us, but what a gift that for most of us, but what a gift that was. Like I thought caregiving was a was. Like I thought caregiving was a was. Like I thought caregiving was a season of life to sort of be survived.

season of life to sort of be survived. season of life to sort of be survived. And um And um And um and I think and I think and I think who better than Christians to understand who better than Christians to understand who better than Christians to understand that caregiving is a default setting, that caregiving is a default setting, that caregiving is a default setting, not a stage that you enter into and out not a stage that you enter into and out not a stage that you enter into and out of. I mean, Jesus says all kinds of of. I mean, Jesus says all kinds of of. I mean, Jesus says all kinds of things about that, but I think we don't things about that, but I think we don't things about that, but I think we don't really realize, oh, he means all of really realize, oh, he means all of really realize, oh, he means all of life. And that for many of us, the life. And that for many of us, the life. And that for many of us, the servanthood that we will enter into will servanthood that we will enter into will servanthood that we will enter into will be for family members. Not for all of be for family members. Not for all of be for family members. Not for all of us. For all For some of us it will be us. For all For some of us it will be us. For all For some of us it will be um people who are not family. um people who are not family. um people who are not family. Um but but I just I think I thought Um but but I just I think I thought Um but but I just I think I thought there would be a lot of years that were there would be a lot of years that were there would be a lot of years that were sort of like those college years where I sort of like those college years where I sort of like those college years where I just, you know, the euphoria of I just just, you know, the euphoria of I just just, you know, the euphoria of I just have me to take care of. And um some have me to take care of. And um some have me to take care of. And um some people never even got that. There are people never even got that. There are people never even got that. There are people who are more aware of this and people who are more aware of this and people who are more aware of this and were aware of this earlier than I was. were aware of this earlier than I was. were aware of this earlier than I was. My mother, I mentioned in the book, she My mother, I mentioned in the book, she My mother, I mentioned in the book, she had multiple sclerosis and um she wasn't had multiple sclerosis and um she wasn't had multiple sclerosis and um she wasn't diagnosed for a long time because I diagnosed for a long time because I diagnosed for a long time because I think the idea of the diagnosis was think the idea of the diagnosis was think the idea of the diagnosis was overwhelming to her so she avoided it.

overwhelming to her so she avoided it. overwhelming to her so she avoided it. But she was having health issues related But she was having health issues related But she was having health issues related to that uh I mean even when I was in to that uh I mean even when I was in to that uh I mean even when I was in high school and they got more high school and they got more high school and they got more pronounced. Um she had a very gradual pronounced. Um she had a very gradual pronounced. Um she had a very gradual case of it. She was actually mobile case of it. She was actually mobile case of it. She was actually mobile until her death but that just you know, until her death but that just you know, until her death but that just you know, just it that was about to um be gone just it that was about to um be gone just it that was about to um be gone from her. So even when I was in young from her. So even when I was in young from her. So even when I was in young adulthood, I was watching her um face adulthood, I was watching her um face adulthood, I was watching her um face challenges as she aged related to challenges as she aged related to challenges as she aged related to mobility and being able to take care of mobility and being able to take care of mobility and being able to take care of herself. She was fiercely independent. herself. She was fiercely independent. herself. She was fiercely independent. And so the fact that I had navigated a And so the fact that I had navigated a And so the fact that I had navigated a lot of those conversations with her in lot of those conversations with her in lot of those conversations with her in my 30s and 40s my 30s and 40s my 30s and 40s meant that I was more able to think meant that I was more able to think meant that I was more able to think toward how to handle them with my dad toward how to handle them with my dad toward how to handle them with my dad and my stepmom and Jeff's parents as and my stepmom and Jeff's parents as and my stepmom and Jeff's parents as well well well knowing that it was only a matter of knowing that it was only a matter of knowing that it was only a matter of time before they would face similar time before they would face similar time before they would face similar similar issues. And so I feel like the similar issues. And so I feel like the similar issues. And so I feel like the what happened with Jeff's parents was what happened with Jeff's parents was what happened with Jeff's parents was just ideal. They they moved a block and just ideal. They they moved a block and just ideal. They they moved a block and a half away from us. a half away from us. a half away from us. Um and it was just such a gift to have Um and it was just such a gift to have Um and it was just such a gift to have them there. It was a gift for so many them there. It was a gift for so many them there. It was a gift for so many reasons but um caregiving not least of reasons but um caregiving not least of reasons but um caregiving not least of those.

those. those. >> So interesting, Jen, the way that we >> So interesting, Jen, the way that we >> So interesting, Jen, the way that we don't assume that all of life is don't assume that all of life is don't assume that all of life is caregiving because that would have been caregiving because that would have been caregiving because that would have been all of life obviously to almost every all of life obviously to almost every all of life obviously to almost every generation generation generation >> generation before us um last couple >> generation before us um last couple >> generation before us um last couple generations in there because generations in there because generations in there because you're generally not I mean a lot of you're generally not I mean a lot of you're generally not I mean a lot of people did live old lives but in general people did live old lives but in general people did live old lives but in general the the window between having kids and the the window between having kids and the the window between having kids and having a a of kids and then having your having a a of kids and then having your having a a of kids and then having your parents die nearby you, parents die nearby you, parents die nearby you, that was just that was just that was just completely normative. completely normative. completely normative. >> Yes. Yeah. Uh what's the saying? Uh life >> Yes. Yeah. Uh what's the saying? Uh life >> Yes. Yeah. Uh what's the saying? Uh life is uh brutal, nasty, and short, I think. is uh brutal, nasty, and short, I think. is uh brutal, nasty, and short, I think. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] Uh and for most of human history, you Uh and for most of human history, you Uh and for most of human history, you know, people didn't delay childbearing know, people didn't delay childbearing know, people didn't delay childbearing because first of all, they couldn't. It because first of all, they couldn't. It because first of all, they couldn't. It was pre-sexual revolution. was pre-sexual revolution. was pre-sexual revolution. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> and secondly, why would you if you're if >> and secondly, why would you if you're if >> and secondly, why would you if you're if average life expectancy was 25 to 35 average life expectancy was 25 to 35 average life expectancy was 25 to 35 years, which is the the majority report years, which is the the majority report years, which is the the majority report on that? on that? on that? >> half your kids are dying in childbirth >> half your kids are dying in childbirth >> half your kids are dying in childbirth or or during your childhood, and you or or during your childhood, and you or or during your childhood, and you also and a lot of the women aren't also and a lot of the women aren't also and a lot of the women aren't surviving surviving surviving their their their childbirth, either.

childbirth, either. childbirth, either. >> That's right. So, you had infant >> That's right. So, you had infant >> That's right. So, you had infant mortality, you had you had death because mortality, you had you had death because mortality, you had you had death because of wars and illnesses that we avoid. of wars and illnesses that we avoid. of wars and illnesses that we avoid. Like, I was sitting there thinking, I Like, I was sitting there thinking, I Like, I was sitting there thinking, I didn't put this in the book, didn't put this in the book, didn't put this in the book, but I was thinking about how many times but I was thinking about how many times but I was thinking about how many times I should have died before now, but I should have died before now, but I should have died before now, but modern medicine has has prevented it. I modern medicine has has prevented it. I modern medicine has has prevented it. I had appendicitis. I could have died, you had appendicitis. I could have died, you had appendicitis. I could have died, you know? Uh know? Uh know? Uh the vaccines I've had, the um the vaccines I've had, the um the vaccines I've had, the um uh sorry, hope that's not a hot-button uh sorry, hope that's not a hot-button uh sorry, hope that's not a hot-button issue, guys. issue, guys. issue, guys. Um the the times I've had antibiotics Um the the times I've had antibiotics Um the the times I've had antibiotics for things that might have taken me out. for things that might have taken me out. for things that might have taken me out. Um I got a tetanus shot after I busted Um I got a tetanus shot after I busted Um I got a tetanus shot after I busted my knee open, you know? Um just the my knee open, you know? Um just the my knee open, you know? Um just the simple things we take um for granted, simple things we take um for granted, simple things we take um for granted, which could have been life-ending or which could have been life-ending or which could have been life-ending or life-altering. Broken bones. life-altering. Broken bones. life-altering. Broken bones. Uh you could be lame for the rest of Uh you could be lame for the rest of Uh you could be lame for the rest of your life. And so, the the length of your life. And so, the the length of your life. And so, the the length of life we enjoy, the quality of life we life we enjoy, the quality of life we life we enjoy, the quality of life we enjoy health-wise, are truly enjoy health-wise, are truly enjoy health-wise, are truly unprecedented in human history, and yet unprecedented in human history, and yet unprecedented in human history, and yet we're just greedy for more. we're just greedy for more. we're just greedy for more. >> Um >> Um >> Um I uh had a persistent problem of the I uh had a persistent problem of the I uh had a persistent problem of the combination of AirPods and water giving combination of AirPods and water giving combination of AirPods and water giving me ear infections, me ear infections, me ear infections, which would result in which would result in which would result in >> don't swim in your AirPods there.

>> don't swim in your AirPods there. >> don't swim in your AirPods there. >> Well, it was it was the like working >> Well, it was it was the like working >> Well, it was it was the like working out, basically. So, sweat. out, basically. So, sweat. out, basically. So, sweat. Um or the combination of Um or the combination of Um or the combination of >> of that. Yeah. >> of that. Yeah. >> of that. Yeah. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> or the combination of that and then >> or the combination of that and then >> or the combination of that and then swimming or something like that swimming or something like that swimming or something like that afterward. And and you it would be like afterward. And and you it would be like afterward. And and you it would be like nine out of Well, that's insulting to nine out of Well, that's insulting to nine out of Well, that's insulting to any woman who's had a child. I don't any woman who's had a child. I don't any woman who's had a child. I don't know what else to say. know what else to say. know what else to say. >> No. No, no, no. >> No. No, no, no. >> No. No, no, no. >> It in the like you're being stabbed in >> It in the like you're being stabbed in >> It in the like you're being stabbed in the brain the brain the brain >> You are correct. >> You are correct. >> You are correct. >> um with an with an ear infection. And >> um with an with an ear infection. And >> um with an with an ear infection. And I'm thinking that is an easy antibiotic I'm thinking that is an easy antibiotic I'm thinking that is an easy antibiotic to be able to cure in order to fix. to be able to cure in order to fix. to be able to cure in order to fix. But But But >> What did people do >> What did people do >> What did people do >> I just would [laughter] have died. Now, >> I just would [laughter] have died. Now, >> I just would [laughter] have died. Now, I would have had AirPods, so maybe I I would have had AirPods, so maybe I I would have had AirPods, so maybe I would have avoided that. would have avoided that. would have avoided that. problem, but problem, but problem, but >> Yeah. Now Colin, I affirm this because I >> Yeah. Now Colin, I affirm this because I >> Yeah. Now Colin, I affirm this because I I've I've had ruptured eardrums twice I've I've had ruptured eardrums twice I've I've had ruptured eardrums twice from ear infections, and it is I think from ear infections, and it is I think from ear infections, and it is I think it's worse than childbirth. And I've had it's worse than childbirth. And I've had it's worse than childbirth. And I've had four four babies. four four babies. four four babies. >> I'm I'm I'm not saying it, you're saying >> I'm I'm I'm not saying it, you're saying >> I'm I'm I'm not saying it, you're saying that, but I can just say when I sat in that, but I can just say when I sat in that, but I can just say when I sat in the emergency room after three hours, the emergency room after three hours, the emergency room after three hours, and they said, "What's your pain level?" and they said, "What's your pain level?" and they said, "What's your pain level?" and I said, "I'm embarrassed to say and I said, "I'm embarrassed to say and I said, "I'm embarrassed to say this, but it's nine out of 10. I'm being this, but it's nine out of 10. I'm being this, but it's nine out of 10. I'm being stabbed in the brain right now."

stabbed in the brain right now." stabbed in the brain right now." >> Yeah, I know. It's bad. >> Yeah, I know. It's bad. >> Yeah, I know. It's bad. >> It's so bad. So, you think think about >> It's so bad. So, you think think about >> It's so bad. So, you think think about your ba- you know, think about your your ba- you know, think about your your ba- you know, think about your babies and when they have the ear babies and when they have the ear babies and when they have the ear infections. infections. infections. >> I mean, you feel so bad when you don't >> I mean, you feel so bad when you don't >> I mean, you feel so bad when you don't find out until three days later. I mean, find out until three days later. I mean, find out until three days later. I mean, that's me. I'm That was me. that's me. I'm That was me. that's me. I'm That was me. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Where I'm like, "Oh, that's why you've >> Where I'm like, "Oh, that's why you've >> Where I'm like, "Oh, that's why you've been Oh." been Oh." been Oh." >> But we we live It's the the theme here >> But we we live It's the the theme here >> But we we live It's the the theme here is that we live in this kind of ignorant is that we live in this kind of ignorant is that we live in this kind of ignorant um um um sense It's not all of us, of course, but sense It's not all of us, of course, but sense It's not all of us, of course, but we live this we live this we live this modernity allows us to live a mirage. modernity allows us to live a mirage. modernity allows us to live a mirage. uh more so than others have. And I see uh more so than others have. And I see uh more so than others have. And I see people living that mirage into their 70s people living that mirage into their 70s people living that mirage into their 70s and into their 80s, still not coming to and into their 80s, still not coming to and into their 80s, still not coming to terms with that. um I'm writing a book terms with that. um I'm writing a book terms with that. um I'm writing a book about C.S. Lewis right now, and about C.S. Lewis right now, and about C.S. Lewis right now, and Screwtape Letters is talking about um Screwtape Letters is talking about um Screwtape Letters is talking about um you know, war's not a not as good of a you know, war's not a not as good of a you know, war's not a not as good of a thing for the devils as they think cuz thing for the devils as they think cuz thing for the devils as they think cuz it makes everybody think about death. it makes everybody think about death. it makes everybody think about death. And death is inevitable. So, it's you And death is inevitable. So, it's you And death is inevitable. So, it's you know, it's used by God know, it's used by God know, it's used by God there. And so, you can see that this there. And so, you can see that this there. And so, you can see that this ignorant seeming bliss that we live in ignorant seeming bliss that we live in ignorant seeming bliss that we live in that we're not going to die that we're not going to die that we're not going to die is is is evil.

evil. evil. >> Yeah. And I mean, it's the oldest shiny >> Yeah. And I mean, it's the oldest shiny >> Yeah. And I mean, it's the oldest shiny offer in scripture. offer in scripture. offer in scripture. >> There you go. >> There you go. >> There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> The first thing the serpent says, it >> The first thing the serpent says, it >> The first thing the serpent says, it always says, "You will not surely die." always says, "You will not surely die." always says, "You will not surely die." >> Die. And you'll be like God, yeah. >> Die. And you'll be like God, yeah. >> Die. And you'll be like God, yeah. >> And that's what every, you know, >> And that's what every, you know, >> And that's what every, you know, aesthetician is telling you. It's what aesthetician is telling you. It's what aesthetician is telling you. It's what everybody with their vitamin regimen is everybody with their vitamin regimen is everybody with their vitamin regimen is telling you. And again, I am not saying telling you. And again, I am not saying telling you. And again, I am not saying don't take vitamins. don't take vitamins. don't take vitamins. Um I'm saying that even if you take the Um I'm saying that even if you take the Um I'm saying that even if you take the best vitamin regimen in the world, you best vitamin regimen in the world, you best vitamin regimen in the world, you will surely die. And you live life will surely die. And you live life will surely die. And you live life differently when you do when you take differently when you do when you take differently when you do when you take Moses' advice and you number your days Moses' advice and you number your days Moses' advice and you number your days that you may gain a heart of wisdom. And that you may gain a heart of wisdom. And that you may gain a heart of wisdom. And um and it's it's chilling uh or it's um and it's it's chilling uh or it's um and it's it's chilling uh or it's sobering, I should say, to recognize sobering, I should say, to recognize sobering, I should say, to recognize that our days are numbered. And anyone that our days are numbered. And anyone that our days are numbered. And anyone who has ever had I I mentioned this in who has ever had I I mentioned this in who has ever had I I mentioned this in the book, any health crisis that you the book, any health crisis that you the book, any health crisis that you have at any stage of life or that a have at any stage of life or that a have at any stage of life or that a loved one has is a wake-up call. Um and loved one has is a wake-up call. Um and loved one has is a wake-up call. Um and you have you experience what is a you have you experience what is a you have you experience what is a documented phenomenon called the documented phenomenon called the documented phenomenon called the narrowing of priorities, where all of a narrowing of priorities, where all of a narrowing of priorities, where all of a sudden you have clarity around what sudden you have clarity around what sudden you have clarity around what matters and what doesn't. And so, the matters and what doesn't. And so, the matters and what doesn't. And so, the fallout of believing you will not surely fallout of believing you will not surely fallout of believing you will not surely die is that you never experience the die is that you never experience the die is that you never experience the mercy of the narrowing of your mercy of the narrowing of your mercy of the narrowing of your priorities. And the likelihood that you priorities. And the likelihood that you priorities. And the likelihood that you will chase after lesser things for um will chase after lesser things for um will chase after lesser things for um for most, if not all, of the additional for most, if not all, of the additional for most, if not all, of the additional life expectancy years that this life expectancy years that this life expectancy years that this generation has been given seems pretty generation has been given seems pretty generation has been given seems pretty high.

high. high. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> Well, I walked that through that process >> Well, I walked that through that process >> Well, I walked that through that process with Tim Keller, 3 years of pancreatic with Tim Keller, 3 years of pancreatic with Tim Keller, 3 years of pancreatic cancer. The narrowing of of priorities cancer. The narrowing of of priorities cancer. The narrowing of of priorities toward toward legacy. Of course, that's toward toward legacy. Of course, that's toward toward legacy. Of course, that's why I worked on the book with him and why I worked on the book with him and why I worked on the book with him and started the Keller Center. started the Keller Center. started the Keller Center. Um if he died suddenly of a heart attack Um if he died suddenly of a heart attack Um if he died suddenly of a heart attack years later, years later, years later, um I don't would we have done those um I don't would we have done those um I don't would we have done those things? things? things? I don't know. Maybe he maybe those I don't know. Maybe he maybe those I don't know. Maybe he maybe those priorities would not have narrowed, but priorities would not have narrowed, but priorities would not have narrowed, but one of the things he talked about, which one of the things he talked about, which one of the things he talked about, which then, you know, another friend, Ben then, you know, another friend, Ben then, you know, another friend, Ben Sasse, going through the same thing with Sasse, going through the same thing with Sasse, going through the same thing with pancreatic cancer, one of the things pancreatic cancer, one of the things pancreatic cancer, one of the things that he and I talked about with that as that he and I talked about with that as that he and I talked about with that as well was Tim's sense that pancreatic well was Tim's sense that pancreatic well was Tim's sense that pancreatic cancer was a get out of jail free card. cancer was a get out of jail free card. cancer was a get out of jail free card. It was his way of being able to say no It was his way of being able to say no It was his way of being able to say no cuz he didn't like to say no to people. cuz he didn't like to say no to people. cuz he didn't like to say no to people. Say no to anything because nobody could Say no to anything because nobody could Say no to anything because nobody could ever question him. That's the narrowing ever question him. That's the narrowing ever question him. That's the narrowing of priorities. There. of priorities. There. of priorities. There. >> That's right. And I from a different >> That's right. And I from a different >> That's right. And I from a different vantage point, I'm experiencing that now vantage point, I'm experiencing that now vantage point, I'm experiencing that now with my adult children. I'm sorry, my with my adult children. I'm sorry, my with my adult children. I'm sorry, my adult parents. And my grandchildren. adult parents. And my grandchildren. adult parents. And my grandchildren. It's like, yeah, I don't I don't care if It's like, yeah, I don't I don't care if It's like, yeah, I don't I don't care if you want me to come and speak at your you want me to come and speak at your you want me to come and speak at your event. I I know.

event. I I know. event. I I know. I know what matters most. I know what I I know what matters most. I know what I I know what matters most. I know what I will regret more and it's not missing will regret more and it's not missing will regret more and it's not missing your event. Um and um every Wednesday I your event. Um and um every Wednesday I your event. Um and um every Wednesday I spend the day I drive an hour and 40 spend the day I drive an hour and 40 spend the day I drive an hour and 40 minutes and spend the day with my dad minutes and spend the day with my dad minutes and spend the day with my dad and my stepmom. My dad is um 86. My and my stepmom. My dad is um 86. My and my stepmom. My dad is um 86. My stepmom turns 80 this this Christmas. stepmom turns 80 this this Christmas. stepmom turns 80 this this Christmas. She's a Christmas baby. She's a Christmas baby. She's a Christmas baby. And um And um And um never have I ever gotten home on a never have I ever gotten home on a never have I ever gotten home on a Wednesday night and thought, man, I Wednesday night and thought, man, I Wednesday night and thought, man, I could have used that day for something could have used that day for something could have used that day for something else. And and it is mutually enjoyable. else. And and it is mutually enjoyable. else. And and it is mutually enjoyable. You know, they're always like, oh, thank You know, they're always like, oh, thank You know, they're always like, oh, thank you for coming. And I'm like, you don't you for coming. And I'm like, you don't you for coming. And I'm like, you don't have to thank me for doing something have to thank me for doing something have to thank me for doing something that I thoroughly enjoy. that I thoroughly enjoy. that I thoroughly enjoy. Um and so I just think that I didn't Um and so I just think that I didn't Um and so I just think that I didn't have any expectation have any expectation have any expectation of how of how of how um um um rewarding and enjoyable it would be. rewarding and enjoyable it would be. rewarding and enjoyable it would be. Now, I do understand that not everyone Now, I do understand that not everyone Now, I do understand that not everyone has the relationship with their adult has the relationship with their adult has the relationship with their adult parents that I do and with their aging parents that I do and with their aging parents that I do and with their aging parents. And I also very much understand parents. And I also very much understand parents. And I also very much understand that aging um calcifies people in ways that aging um calcifies people in ways that aging um calcifies people in ways that can make that either make them even that can make that either make them even that can make that either make them even sweeter to be around or even more sweeter to be around or even more sweeter to be around or even more miserable to be around. And that's why miserable to be around. And that's why miserable to be around. And that's why this is a particular form of caregiving this is a particular form of caregiving this is a particular form of caregiving that that that um because you tied to it also that um because you tied to it also that um because you tied to it also that there's not potentiality. Like they're there's not potentiality. Like they're there's not potentiality. Like they're not going to uh go become a neurosurgeon not going to uh go become a neurosurgeon not going to uh go become a neurosurgeon because you cared for the you know, because you cared for the you know, because you cared for the you know, those those decisions are all in the those those decisions are all in the those those decisions are all in the rearview mirror.

rearview mirror. rearview mirror. Um when you have a difficult parent who Um when you have a difficult parent who Um when you have a difficult parent who um who you're trying to honor in their um who you're trying to honor in their um who you're trying to honor in their late years of life, that's its own um late years of life, that's its own um late years of life, that's its own um its own shaping its own shaping its own shaping uh uh uh force uh on you the individual as well force uh on you the individual as well force uh on you the individual as well as um on them. as um on them. as um on them. >> Two two different situations that I have >> Two two different situations that I have >> Two two different situations that I have known about and experienced both of them known about and experienced both of them known about and experienced both of them with mothers with dementia at the end of with mothers with dementia at the end of with mothers with dementia at the end of their lives. their lives. their lives. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And one was >> And one was >> And one was I mean, it was it just did not go well I mean, it was it just did not go well I mean, it was it just did not go well at all. There was no redemptive at all. There was no redemptive at all. There was no redemptive experience in it. It was a reminder of experience in it. It was a reminder of experience in it. It was a reminder of years of pain and separation and years of pain and separation and years of pain and separation and disagreement and disagreement and disagreement and and all that. And then another was a a and all that. And then another was a a and all that. And then another was a a change in the other person with change in the other person with change in the other person with dementia's personality to be less dementia's personality to be less dementia's personality to be less critical, critical, critical, um nicer, sweeter. um nicer, sweeter. um nicer, sweeter. And the caregiving became And the caregiving became And the caregiving became an opportunity for an opportunity for an opportunity for like, wow, I wish we'd spent our whole like, wow, I wish we'd spent our whole like, wow, I wish we'd spent our whole lives that way, but I'm still but I'm lives that way, but I'm still but I'm lives that way, but I'm still but I'm glad that I had these glad that I had these glad that I had these these months and these years together.

these months and these years together. these months and these years together. So, obviously dementia's a horrible So, obviously dementia's a horrible So, obviously dementia's a horrible thing. It's an evidence of the fall, but thing. It's an evidence of the fall, but thing. It's an evidence of the fall, but it it it it can go in strange ways. You just it can go in strange ways. You just it can go in strange ways. You just don't really know how that's going to don't really know how that's going to don't really know how that's going to It's going to end badly. You know that, It's going to end badly. You know that, It's going to end badly. You know that, but um but um but um that was you you can't exactly plan all that was you you can't exactly plan all that was you you can't exactly plan all of that. But speaking of of that again of that. But speaking of of that again of that. But speaking of of that again on this caregiving theme, on this caregiving theme, on this caregiving theme, I I I preached a few years ago on the I I I preached a few years ago on the I I I preached a few years ago on the fifth commandment and fifth commandment and fifth commandment and persistently misunderstood. I I mean, persistently misunderstood. I I mean, persistently misunderstood. I I mean, its application would have been very its application would have been very its application would have been very clear and practical to just about any clear and practical to just about any clear and practical to just about any other culture including the original other culture including the original other culture including the original Hebrews uh following Moses. What what is Hebrews uh following Moses. What what is Hebrews uh following Moses. What what is it that makes it so hard for us to it that makes it so hard for us to it that makes it so hard for us to understand what the fifth commandment is understand what the fifth commandment is understand what the fifth commandment is trying to say? trying to say? trying to say? >> Yeah. Well, we take it out of context. >> Yeah. Well, we take it out of context. >> Yeah. Well, we take it out of context. Um and Um and Um and um um um I also think, you know, I'd written a I also think, you know, I'd written a I also think, you know, I'd written a book on the 10 Commandments right before book on the 10 Commandments right before book on the 10 Commandments right before my mom died, and I had really been my mom died, and I had really been my mom died, and I had really been struck by exactly what you're you're struck by exactly what you're you're struck by exactly what you're you're describing that describing that describing that it is such a bigger call to obedience it is such a bigger call to obedience it is such a bigger call to obedience than I had ever contemplated and then than I had ever contemplated and then than I had ever contemplated and then you're like, "Oh, shoot. This feels hard you're like, "Oh, shoot. This feels hard you're like, "Oh, shoot. This feels hard and not easy." And I I had mentioned in and not easy." And I I had mentioned in and not easy." And I I had mentioned in the book on the Ten Commandments how the the book on the Ten Commandments how the the book on the Ten Commandments how the original original original utterance of the Ten Commandments is utterance of the Ten Commandments is utterance of the Ten Commandments is really directed at adults. It's not like really directed at adults. It's not like really directed at adults. It's not like It's not like God stops looking at the It's not like God stops looking at the It's not like God stops looking at the adults and looks down at the children adults and looks down at the children adults and looks down at the children gathered at the foot of Sinai and says, gathered at the foot of Sinai and says, gathered at the foot of Sinai and says, you know, "Okay, the kids, this one's you know, "Okay, the kids, this one's you know, "Okay, the kids, this one's for you."

for you." for you." Um and it actually had so much to do Um and it actually had so much to do Um and it actually had so much to do with the well-being of the nation um with the well-being of the nation um with the well-being of the nation um that once they got into Canaan, there that once they got into Canaan, there that once they got into Canaan, there needed to be this generational transfer needed to be this generational transfer needed to be this generational transfer of wealth. And the wealth was in the of wealth. And the wealth was in the of wealth. And the wealth was in the form of remembrances. Like they needed form of remembrances. Like they needed form of remembrances. Like they needed to What's the call in the Old Testament to What's the call in the Old Testament to What's the call in the Old Testament over over again? Remember, remember, over over again? Remember, remember, over over again? Remember, remember, remember what the Lord has done for you. remember what the Lord has done for you. remember what the Lord has done for you. Don't forget, don't forget, don't Don't forget, don't forget, don't Don't forget, don't forget, don't forget. And so um forget. And so um forget. And so um what older generations have is a what older generations have is a what older generations have is a repository of remembrance that is vital repository of remembrance that is vital repository of remembrance that is vital for the next generation. for the next generation. for the next generation. Um one generation has to tell the next Um one generation has to tell the next Um one generation has to tell the next of the wonderful works of the Lord. But of the wonderful works of the Lord. But of the wonderful works of the Lord. But what the Fifth Command was saying is, what the Fifth Command was saying is, what the Fifth Command was saying is, "Hey, adult children, "Hey, adult children, "Hey, adult children, you for the sake of the good of the you for the sake of the good of the you for the sake of the good of the community, you need to take care of your community, you need to take care of your community, you need to take care of your aging parents." Now, it doesn't mean aging parents." Now, it doesn't mean aging parents." Now, it doesn't mean that there weren't also applications for that there weren't also applications for that there weren't also applications for small children. Uh my mom loved to quote small children. Uh my mom loved to quote small children. Uh my mom loved to quote that one. She would say, "If you want to that one. She would say, "If you want to that one. She would say, "If you want to live a long time, you better honor me." live a long time, you better honor me." live a long time, you better honor me." And she by and I for sure know she And she by and I for sure know she And she by and I for sure know she didn't mean uh "You better take care of didn't mean uh "You better take care of didn't mean uh "You better take care of me when I am not able to take care of me when I am not able to take care of me when I am not able to take care of myself" because she did not want that.

myself" because she did not want that. myself" because she did not want that. Uh but that's the great irony is that, Uh but that's the great irony is that, Uh but that's the great irony is that, you know, the the nation of Israel you know, the the nation of Israel you know, the the nation of Israel actually functioned according to a clan actually functioned according to a clan actually functioned according to a clan system and it was its own sort of social system and it was its own sort of social system and it was its own sort of social welfare arrangement for this this people welfare arrangement for this this people welfare arrangement for this this people who were um who were um an autonomous who were um who were um an autonomous who were um who were um an autonomous group uh distinct from other nations group uh distinct from other nations group uh distinct from other nations where in order to not fall into debt, where in order to not fall into debt, where in order to not fall into debt, they had provisions, uh, debilitating they had provisions, uh, debilitating they had provisions, uh, debilitating debt, uh, in order to not starve, uh, in debt, uh, in order to not starve, uh, in debt, uh, in order to not starve, uh, in order to not go naked, you know, um, order to not go naked, you know, um, order to not go naked, you know, um, they had ways of provision within the they had ways of provision within the they had ways of provision within the community, and, um, it is all of the community, and, um, it is all of the community, and, um, it is all of the things that Jesus says that show you to things that Jesus says that show you to things that Jesus says that show you to be a true follower of Jesus, where he be a true follower of Jesus, where he be a true follower of Jesus, where he says, says, says, um, you know, when I was thirsty, you um, you know, when I was thirsty, you um, you know, when I was thirsty, you gave me drink, when I was hungry, you gave me drink, when I was hungry, you gave me drink, when I was hungry, you fed me, when I was naked, you clothed fed me, when I was naked, you clothed fed me, when I was naked, you clothed me, um, when I was in prison, you me, um, when I was in prison, you me, um, when I was in prison, you visited me, visited me, visited me, um, and I think about that, like, um, and I think about that, like, um, and I think about that, like, um, extreme age is an imprisonment in um, extreme age is an imprisonment in um, extreme age is an imprisonment in your in your own body. your in your own body. your in your own body. Uh, and do we think about that when we Uh, and do we think about that when we Uh, and do we think about that when we think about visitation for those who are think about visitation for those who are think about visitation for those who are in prison, that there are those who, I in prison, that there are those who, I in prison, that there are those who, I mean, you can say the same of many mean, you can say the same of many mean, you can say the same of many people who have, um, some special needs people who have, um, some special needs people who have, um, some special needs consideration. You can visit those who consideration. You can visit those who consideration. You can visit those who are in prison, uh, when their body is a are in prison, uh, when their body is a are in prison, uh, when their body is a prison for them in a particular way.

prison for them in a particular way. prison for them in a particular way. It's why we do hospital visits, um, and It's why we do hospital visits, um, and It's why we do hospital visits, um, and things like that. And so, things like that. And so, things like that. And so, um, the fifth commandment has in view, um, the fifth commandment has in view, um, the fifth commandment has in view, uh, to borrow from the Westminster uh, to borrow from the Westminster uh, to borrow from the Westminster Catechism, uh, any who are our superiors Catechism, uh, any who are our superiors Catechism, uh, any who are our superiors in age and wisdom, whether that is in, in age and wisdom, whether that is in, in age and wisdom, whether that is in, um, church, home, or commonwealth, I um, church, home, or commonwealth, I um, church, home, or commonwealth, I think is the way that it's said. And so, think is the way that it's said. And so, think is the way that it's said. And so, um, this is an idea that is lost on our um, this is an idea that is lost on our um, this is an idea that is lost on our culture. culture. culture. And sadly, that cultural loss has crept And sadly, that cultural loss has crept And sadly, that cultural loss has crept into the subculture of the church as into the subculture of the church as into the subculture of the church as well. well. well. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Talking with Jen Wilkin here, her new Talking with Jen Wilkin here, her new Talking with Jen Wilkin here, her new book, Dust to Dust, Aging Wisely in an book, Dust to Dust, Aging Wisely in an book, Dust to Dust, Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging World. Uh, don't worry, Jen, Anti-Aging World. Uh, don't worry, Jen, Anti-Aging World. Uh, don't worry, Jen, I've saved all my best questions for I've saved all my best questions for I've saved all my best questions for still to come. still to come. still to come. Okay? Okay? Okay? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> So, we're just getting warmed up here. I >> So, we're just getting warmed up here. I >> So, we're just getting warmed up here. I got a few more. I got a few more here. got a few more. I got a few more here. got a few more. I got a few more here. All right. Um, will you retire? All right. Um, will you retire? All right. Um, will you retire? >> Well, so, I probably won't, but I have >> Well, so, I probably won't, but I have >> Well, so, I probably won't, but I have the luxury of a profession that ages the luxury of a profession that ages the luxury of a profession that ages well. well. well. Um, so, you know, I read, um, Arthur Um, so, you know, I read, um, Arthur Um, so, you know, I read, um, Arthur Brooks, um, From Strength to Strength, Brooks, um, From Strength to Strength, Brooks, um, From Strength to Strength, when I was putting together this book, when I was putting together this book, when I was putting together this book, and he does a really great job of and he does a really great job of and he does a really great job of talking about how we age from um, um talking about how we age from um, um talking about how we age from um, um fluid knowledge to crystallized fluid knowledge to crystallized fluid knowledge to crystallized knowledge. Uh there's a natural knowledge. Uh there's a natural knowledge. Uh there's a natural progression of that. So, the young progression of that. So, the young progression of that. So, the young people have fluid knowledge, they're people have fluid knowledge, they're people have fluid knowledge, they're able to ideate and come up with the new able to ideate and come up with the new able to ideate and come up with the new ideas and innovate and um tons of energy ideas and innovate and um tons of energy ideas and innovate and um tons of energy to execute on those ideas. And then as to execute on those ideas. And then as to execute on those ideas. And then as you get older, you lose that ability and you get older, you lose that ability and you get older, you lose that ability and crystallized knowledge, in other words, crystallized knowledge, in other words, crystallized knowledge, in other words, um sort of the interplay of of all of um sort of the interplay of of all of um sort of the interplay of of all of the accumulated knowledge of years

the accumulated knowledge of years the accumulated knowledge of years begins to pay off. And so, I'm seeing begins to pay off. And so, I'm seeing begins to pay off. And so, I'm seeing that in the Bible study world where I that in the Bible study world where I that in the Bible study world where I feel like I'm finally getting good at feel like I'm finally getting good at feel like I'm finally getting good at biblical theology because I finally have biblical theology because I finally have biblical theology because I finally have enough just knowledge of scripture to be enough just knowledge of scripture to be enough just knowledge of scripture to be able to intuitively make connections. able to intuitively make connections. able to intuitively make connections. So, there are certain professions that So, there are certain professions that So, there are certain professions that leverage crystallized knowledge and leverage crystallized knowledge and leverage crystallized knowledge and certain that leverage fluid knowledge. certain that leverage fluid knowledge. certain that leverage fluid knowledge. Crystallized knowledge is in things like Crystallized knowledge is in things like Crystallized knowledge is in things like academia, um academia, um academia, um the longer you teach something, the the longer you teach something, the the longer you teach something, the better you get at teaching it. And better you get at teaching it. And better you get at teaching it. And that's why I think a lot of times you that's why I think a lot of times you that's why I think a lot of times you see people move into academia as they see people move into academia as they see people move into academia as they age, where they may have been in a like age, where they may have been in a like age, where they may have been in a like an industry job that required more fluid an industry job that required more fluid an industry job that required more fluid knowledge early on. And so, I I don't knowledge early on. And so, I I don't knowledge early on. And so, I I don't have plans to retire because I have the have plans to retire because I have the have plans to retire because I have the great luxury of a great luxury of a great luxury of a profession that ages well, but I do profession that ages well, but I do profession that ages well, but I do think everyone does need to think about think everyone does need to think about think everyone does need to think about what will happen when their what will happen when their what will happen when their intellectual skill set, for lack of a intellectual skill set, for lack of a intellectual skill set, for lack of a better term, begins to shift toward better term, begins to shift toward better term, begins to shift toward crystallized knowledge. I've I would crystallized knowledge. I've I would crystallized knowledge. I've I would recommend that book. I thought it was recommend that book. I thought it was recommend that book. I thought it was very insightful.

very insightful. very insightful. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, it is. And it make um Yeah, it is. And it make um Yeah, it is. And it make um well, I mean, I'm same boat, but but I well, I mean, I'm same boat, but but I well, I mean, I'm same boat, but but I do think difference for me is that I I do think difference for me is that I I do think difference for me is that I I do a lot of the same things that you do, do a lot of the same things that you do, do a lot of the same things that you do, but I also have institutional leadership but I also have institutional leadership but I also have institutional leadership responsibilities. Those are hard to responsibilities. Those are hard to responsibilities. Those are hard to sustain. sustain. sustain. Um both for the the energy, the travel, Um both for the the energy, the travel, Um both for the the energy, the travel, the presence, the the um the presence, the the um the presence, the the um motivation. I mean, over time, that motivation. I mean, over time, that motivation. I mean, over time, that surely surely wanes. surely surely wanes. surely surely wanes. >> Um and also just it's not always the >> Um and also just it's not always the >> Um and also just it's not always the best stewardship. Um you're not always best stewardship. Um you're not always best stewardship. Um you're not always the best person to be able to do to do the best person to be able to do to do the best person to be able to do to do that for some of these same reasons and that for some of these same reasons and that for some of these same reasons and also because of some of those shifting also because of some of those shifting also because of some of those shifting circumstances. So, my thought has been circumstances. So, my thought has been circumstances. So, my thought has been my books and my teaching and generally my books and my teaching and generally my books and my teaching and generally my writing and speaking probably can can my writing and speaking probably can can my writing and speaking probably can can travel through age. travel through age. travel through age. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Um but at the same time you you were >> Um but at the same time you you were >> Um but at the same time you you were demonstrating earlier some of the demonstrating earlier some of the demonstrating earlier some of the narrowing of priorities and saying no to narrowing of priorities and saying no to narrowing of priorities and saying no to certain things. certain things. certain things. Um so, you could make more money. You Um so, you could make more money. You Um so, you could make more money. You could do a lot of things, but those will could do a lot of things, but those will could do a lot of things, but those will be trade-offs. And that is another be trade-offs. And that is another be trade-offs. And that is another aspect of retirement or aging is just a aspect of retirement or aging is just a aspect of retirement or aging is just a a recognition of those of those a recognition of those of those a recognition of those of those trade-offs.

trade-offs. trade-offs. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Mhm. Yes. >> Um that that that this will cost me >> Um that that that this will cost me >> Um that that that this will cost me time. time. time. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And time matters. A >> And time matters. A >> And time matters. A It always matters. It always matters. It always matters. >> increasingly valuable for what's left of >> increasingly valuable for what's left of >> increasingly valuable for what's left of it you have. Yes. it you have. Yes. it you have. Yes. >> more valuable to us there. And then >> more valuable to us there. And then >> more valuable to us there. And then often you have more money at that point. often you have more money at that point. often you have more money at that point. And sometimes I mean, one thing I often And sometimes I mean, one thing I often And sometimes I mean, one thing I often think about with young kids think about with young kids think about with young kids is is is what am I saying no to right now that what am I saying no to right now that what am I saying no to right now that I I I because I don't think I have enough because I don't think I have enough because I don't think I have enough money to do it. money to do it. money to do it. But I would give anything But I would give anything But I would give anything later any amount of money that I have in later any amount of money that I have in later any amount of money that I have in abundance then to go back and do. abundance then to go back and do. abundance then to go back and do. >> Oh, that's a that's a nice way to think >> Oh, that's a that's a nice way to think >> Oh, that's a that's a nice way to think about it. about it. about it. >> Yeah. Well, so it so trying to in a >> Yeah. Well, so it so trying to in a >> Yeah. Well, so it so trying to in a motivating way to say motivating way to say motivating way to say I don't think I can do this right now, I don't think I can do this right now, I don't think I can do this right now, but but but my 65-year-old self would say you my 65-year-old self would say you my 65-year-old self would say you couldn't I'd throw anything at that. couldn't I'd throw anything at that. couldn't I'd throw anything at that. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> Yes. Yeah. >> So, trying to understand that interplay >> So, trying to understand that interplay >> So, trying to understand that interplay between time and money. And and also between time and money. And and also between time and money. And and also just realistically because of just realistically because of just realistically because of where my kids are in age, I can't and where my kids are in age, I can't and where my kids are in age, I can't and shouldn't travel shouldn't travel shouldn't travel the way that others the way that others the way that others could in my job.

could in my job. could in my job. >> But I think that projecting forward is >> But I think that projecting forward is >> But I think that projecting forward is the thing most of us avoid doing. Uh we the thing most of us avoid doing. Uh we the thing most of us avoid doing. Uh we think of that other side of the hill as think of that other side of the hill as think of that other side of the hill as sort of this fuzzy sort of this fuzzy sort of this fuzzy don't want it can't even I have no don't want it can't even I have no don't want it can't even I have no creative imagination around how it might creative imagination around how it might creative imagination around how it might happen and then nothing is certain happen and then nothing is certain happen and then nothing is certain anyway, so I'm just going to live for anyway, so I'm just going to live for anyway, so I'm just going to live for today. today. today. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah, and there's a balance >> Yeah. Yeah, and there's a balance >> Yeah. Yeah, and there's a balance because tomorrow's not promised to any because tomorrow's not promised to any because tomorrow's not promised to any of us. of us. of us. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> reminds us. So there's a way to be both >> reminds us. So there's a way to be both >> reminds us. So there's a way to be both wise proverbial wisdom we talked about wise proverbial wisdom we talked about wise proverbial wisdom we talked about there, but the same time to be in there, but the same time to be in there, but the same time to be in trusting that all to to the Lord who trusting that all to to the Lord who trusting that all to to the Lord who cares for uh every hair, numbers every cares for uh every hair, numbers every cares for uh every hair, numbers every hair in a head and cares for the the hair in a head and cares for the the hair in a head and cares for the the sparrow. Um all right, now Jen, the big sparrow. Um all right, now Jen, the big sparrow. Um all right, now Jen, the big question here that you and I have been question here that you and I have been question here that you and I have been talking about for forever. You do not talking about for forever. You do not talking about for forever. You do not give a clear list of do and don't when give a clear list of do and don't when give a clear list of do and don't when it comes to hiding the effects of aging it comes to hiding the effects of aging it comes to hiding the effects of aging and I know you know that that's a and I know you know that that's a and I know you know that that's a deliberate attempt not to exceed your deliberate attempt not to exceed your deliberate attempt not to exceed your mandate and maybe also not wanting any mandate and maybe also not wanting any mandate and maybe also not wanting any people angry at you. people angry at you. people angry at you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So how do we discern whether or not to >> So how do we discern whether or not to >> So how do we discern whether or not to pursue those procedures? And you make a pursue those procedures? And you make a pursue those procedures? And you make a good point, maybe this does is more good point, maybe this does is more good point, maybe this does is more acute for women, but you gave the acute for women, but you gave the acute for women, but you gave the example of Bradley Cooper earlier that example of Bradley Cooper earlier that example of Bradley Cooper earlier that it's not exclusive to him, but how do we it's not exclusive to him, but how do we it's not exclusive to him, but how do we discern what to do there and what not to discern what to do there and what not to discern what to do there and what not to do?

do? do? >> Well, I what I what I wanted to do with >> Well, I what I what I wanted to do with >> Well, I what I what I wanted to do with the book is show that that's actually the book is show that that's actually the book is show that that's actually such a secondary question that most of such a secondary question that most of such a secondary question that most of us have not done the initial work that us have not done the initial work that us have not done the initial work that we need to. We need a theology of time. we need to. We need a theology of time. we need to. We need a theology of time. We need a theology of the body. Um we We need a theology of the body. Um we We need a theology of the body. Um we need a theology of aging before we can need a theology of aging before we can need a theology of aging before we can understand um how our decisions impact understand um how our decisions impact understand um how our decisions impact that theology. that theology. that theology. And then when it comes down to our And then when it comes down to our And then when it comes down to our decisions, um decisions, um decisions, um I would say what Jesus says and that is I would say what Jesus says and that is I would say what Jesus says and that is I am concerned about the posture of your I am concerned about the posture of your I am concerned about the posture of your heart before I am concerned about any heart before I am concerned about any heart before I am concerned about any other um action that might result from other um action that might result from other um action that might result from the posture of your heart. And everybody the posture of your heart. And everybody the posture of your heart. And everybody knows that two people can do the same knows that two people can do the same knows that two people can do the same action from two very different heart action from two very different heart action from two very different heart postures. I would argue that when it postures. I would argue that when it postures. I would argue that when it comes to much of what is being peddled comes to much of what is being peddled comes to much of what is being peddled to us in terms of anti-aging, to us in terms of anti-aging, to us in terms of anti-aging, that the messaging is that the messaging is that the messaging is not just anti-aging, it is not just anti-aging, it is not just anti-aging, it is anti-Christian.

anti-Christian. anti-Christian. Um because it's anti-gospel because what Um because it's anti-gospel because what Um because it's anti-gospel because what um what the gospel said it says is um what the gospel said it says is um what the gospel said it says is um change the inside and you'll make um change the inside and you'll make um change the inside and you'll make peace with the outside. peace with the outside. peace with the outside. Uh the anti-gospel works in the opposite Uh the anti-gospel works in the opposite Uh the anti-gospel works in the opposite direction. It says change the outside um direction. It says change the outside um direction. It says change the outside um so that you can make peace with the so that you can make peace with the so that you can make peace with the inside. And um and so, you know, I would inside. And um and so, you know, I would inside. And um and so, you know, I would say one of the things we talk about in say one of the things we talk about in say one of the things we talk about in the book is how we live in the age of um the book is how we live in the age of um the book is how we live in the age of um radical individualism and the autonomous radical individualism and the autonomous radical individualism and the autonomous self, which means that even in Christian self, which means that even in Christian self, which means that even in Christian circles, we will say, "Well, you just circles, we will say, "Well, you just circles, we will say, "Well, you just you do you. You figure it out." you do you. You figure it out." you do you. You figure it out." And I don't think we can say that. I And I don't think we can say that. I And I don't think we can say that. I think that that is the reason that you think that that is the reason that you think that that is the reason that you hear almost entire silence on this hear almost entire silence on this hear almost entire silence on this coming from coming from coming from pastors because God help that man who pastors because God help that man who pastors because God help that man who stands up on a Sunday morning and dares stands up on a Sunday morning and dares stands up on a Sunday morning and dares to say that's not enough of a response.

to say that's not enough of a response. to say that's not enough of a response. And that's why I thought it was And that's why I thought it was And that's why I thought it was important for a woman to write the book important for a woman to write the book important for a woman to write the book cuz there are particular questions cuz there are particular questions cuz there are particular questions um that women have to wrestle with that um that women have to wrestle with that um that women have to wrestle with that are There are unfair standards that are There are unfair standards that are There are unfair standards that women have to wrestle with that men women have to wrestle with that men women have to wrestle with that men don't. Um don't. Um don't. Um and so, I would hope if you're a pastor and so, I would hope if you're a pastor and so, I would hope if you're a pastor listening to this that you would exhale listening to this that you would exhale listening to this that you would exhale a little and be like, "Okay, well, maybe a little and be like, "Okay, well, maybe a little and be like, "Okay, well, maybe I don't have to be the one to break the I don't have to be the one to break the I don't have to be the one to break the silence." silence." silence." Um but I do think we have to break the Um but I do think we have to break the Um but I do think we have to break the silence. And even as I was writing the silence. And even as I was writing the silence. And even as I was writing the book, I thought, "Gosh, book, I thought, "Gosh, book, I thought, "Gosh, there's so much more to be said." Like there's so much more to be said." Like there's so much more to be said." Like even since I finished the manuscript, I even since I finished the manuscript, I even since I finished the manuscript, I thought of so many more things there thought of so many more things there thought of so many more things there could be to say. My best hope for the could be to say. My best hope for the could be to say. My best hope for the book is that it will be a place to start book is that it will be a place to start book is that it will be a place to start conversations. It will not resolve conversations. It will not resolve conversations. It will not resolve everything there is to resolve on this everything there is to resolve on this everything there is to resolve on this issue, but I kept looking around and issue, but I kept looking around and issue, but I kept looking around and seeing no one is talking about this. And seeing no one is talking about this. And seeing no one is talking about this. And if they do, you know, Lord help them. if they do, you know, Lord help them. if they do, you know, Lord help them. And the reason that it was going so And the reason that it was going so And the reason that it was going so sideways is because there are so many sideways is because there are so many sideways is because there are so many underpinnings for the conversation. underpinnings for the conversation. underpinnings for the conversation. Everybody wants to know, well, so can I Everybody wants to know, well, so can I Everybody wants to know, well, so can I dye my hair or not? dye my hair or not? dye my hair or not? And And And the conversations always the conversations always the conversations always get reduced to almost frivolity, get reduced to almost frivolity, get reduced to almost frivolity, frivolousness, frivolousness, frivolousness, because there are so many other because there are so many other because there are so many other questions to ask first. And so that's questions to ask first. And so that's questions to ask first. And so that's what I'm I'm hoping to do in the book.

what I'm I'm hoping to do in the book. what I'm I'm hoping to do in the book. >> Oh, I think you execute on that >> Oh, I think you execute on that >> Oh, I think you execute on that brilliantly. I see exactly what you're brilliantly. I see exactly what you're brilliantly. I see exactly what you're what you're doing there. what you're doing there. what you're doing there. The This is the question you have. This The This is the question you have. This The This is the question you have. This is the question you should be asking. is the question you should be asking. is the question you should be asking. >> Yes, right. Right. >> Yes, right. Right. >> Yes, right. Right. >> Is a consistent pattern. Like you'll >> Is a consistent pattern. Like you'll >> Is a consistent pattern. Like you'll you'll have clarity on the answer that you'll have clarity on the answer that you'll have clarity on the answer that the question you're looking for here the question you're looking for here the question you're looking for here if you understand what's happening here. if you understand what's happening here. if you understand what's happening here. >> We need a good We need a good wisdom >> We need a good We need a good wisdom >> We need a good We need a good wisdom paradigm for aging, paradigm for aging, paradigm for aging, but everybody recognizes, or I hope but everybody recognizes, or I hope but everybody recognizes, or I hope everybody recognizes, wisdom is not law. everybody recognizes, wisdom is not law. everybody recognizes, wisdom is not law. Wisdom is situational. And so I can't Wisdom is situational. And so I can't Wisdom is situational. And so I can't drop into your world. You know, don't DM drop into your world. You know, don't DM drop into your world. You know, don't DM me, you know, should I do this procedure me, you know, should I do this procedure me, you know, should I do this procedure or that procedure? Because wisdom is or that procedure? Because wisdom is or that procedure? Because wisdom is situational. But also don't persist in situational. But also don't persist in situational. But also don't persist in in acting outside of a wisdom paradigm in acting outside of a wisdom paradigm in acting outside of a wisdom paradigm and and and peppering someone else with and and and peppering someone else with and and and peppering someone else with with questions that have have have with questions that have have have with questions that have have have wisdom freight to them. You will stand wisdom freight to them. You will stand wisdom freight to them. You will stand before the Lord and answer for your before the Lord and answer for your before the Lord and answer for your actions. And so do do the hard work. actions. And so do do the hard work. actions. And so do do the hard work. That's what I want the book to do is to That's what I want the book to do is to That's what I want the book to do is to help people begin to do the work of help people begin to do the work of help people begin to do the work of analyzing, why do I feel like this is um analyzing, why do I feel like this is um analyzing, why do I feel like this is um something that's just kind of a you do something that's just kind of a you do something that's just kind of a you do you boo moment.

you boo moment. you boo moment. Is any decision in life a you do you boo Is any decision in life a you do you boo Is any decision in life a you do you boo moment? moment? moment? And then and then going from there. And then and then going from there. And then and then going from there. >> Most helpful part of the book for me, >> Most helpful part of the book for me, >> Most helpful part of the book for me, Jen, was when you listed your regrets. Jen, was when you listed your regrets. Jen, was when you listed your regrets. >> [laughter] >> I want to learn from Jen Wilkin's >> I want to learn from Jen Wilkin's mistakes. mistakes. mistakes. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, there are you know, there are two >> Well, there are you know, there are two >> Well, there are you know, there are two ways that the Lord teaches us. ways that the Lord teaches us. ways that the Lord teaches us. One is through watching other people act One is through watching other people act One is through watching other people act like idiots and the other is through like idiots and the other is through like idiots and the other is through learning it the hard way. So, you're learning it the hard way. So, you're learning it the hard way. So, you're welcome. You're welcome world. welcome. You're welcome world. welcome. You're welcome world. >> a podcast. >> a podcast. >> a podcast. I mean, this is a this is a bold move. I I mean, this is a this is a bold move. I I mean, this is a this is a bold move. I don't see books a lot like this. don't see books a lot like this. don't see books a lot like this. Um how did you decide to list them? I Um how did you decide to list them? I Um how did you decide to list them? I mean, and share just a few of them here mean, and share just a few of them here mean, and share just a few of them here just how you processed through some of just how you processed through some of just how you processed through some of this. But I mean, part of why it was this. But I mean, part of why it was this. But I mean, part of why it was helpful to me is I I like learning this helpful to me is I I like learning this helpful to me is I I like learning this kind of wisdom. I like the kind of wisdom. I like the kind of wisdom. I like the intentionality about it. It's probably intentionality about it. It's probably intentionality about it. It's probably one reason why you and I are friends. one reason why you and I are friends. one reason why you and I are friends. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And but also because I And but also because I And but also because I am just a little younger than you and my am just a little younger than you and my am just a little younger than you and my because my kids are younger, there are because my kids are younger, there are because my kids are younger, there are things that I things that I things that I can change or that I can I can learn can change or that I can I can learn can change or that I can I can learn from and then I can do and also some from and then I can do and also some from and then I can do and also some decisions that we've made about where we decisions that we've made about where we decisions that we've made about where we live live live that are similar to the decisions that that are similar to the decisions that that are similar to the decisions that you made about where you live.

you made about where you live. you made about where you live. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I I think that I got to the end of the I I think that I got to the end of the I I think that I got to the end of the book and I had said some challenging book and I had said some challenging book and I had said some challenging things I think in the book. things I think in the book. things I think in the book. And I really wanted readers to know that And I really wanted readers to know that And I really wanted readers to know that I am not above the challenging things I am not above the challenging things I am not above the challenging things that were said. Like I never want to that were said. Like I never want to that were said. Like I never want to tell someone else to self-examine tell someone else to self-examine tell someone else to self-examine on and something that I know is going to on and something that I know is going to on and something that I know is going to be be be potentially feel like a punch to the gut potentially feel like a punch to the gut potentially feel like a punch to the gut that I have not already had to walk that I have not already had to walk that I have not already had to walk through that punch to the gut myself and through that punch to the gut myself and through that punch to the gut myself and um also I think some of it was that I um also I think some of it was that I um also I think some of it was that I was picturing was picturing was picturing my kids reading the book. my kids reading the book. my kids reading the book. And they know me, you know, like I And they know me, you know, like I And they know me, you know, like I uh uh uh And I remember I sent the manuscript to And I remember I sent the manuscript to And I remember I sent the manuscript to my daughter, Mary Kate. my daughter, Mary Kate. my daughter, Mary Kate. And I didn't know, you know how you get And I didn't know, you know how you get And I didn't know, you know how you get to that stage in a writing a book and to that stage in a writing a book and to that stage in a writing a book and you're like, this could have been a huge you're like, this could have been a huge you're like, this could have been a huge mistake. I don't know. And mistake. I don't know. And mistake. I don't know. And um my son-in-law, Nathan, um my son-in-law, Nathan, um my son-in-law, Nathan, drops onto the family text a picture drops onto the family text a picture drops onto the family text a picture of Mary Kate and he says, well, she of Mary Kate and he says, well, she of Mary Kate and he says, well, she finished finished the book.

finished finished the book. finished finished the book. And it was her sitting on the couch and And it was her sitting on the couch and And it was her sitting on the couch and she had a diaper she had a diaper she had a diaper uh rag uh rag uh rag over her eyes held by her glasses and over her eyes held by her glasses and over her eyes held by her glasses and she was bawling. she was bawling. she was bawling. And I start bawling And I start bawling And I start bawling because I thought, well, even if nobody because I thought, well, even if nobody because I thought, well, even if nobody else gets it, uh Mary Kate knows this is else gets it, uh Mary Kate knows this is else gets it, uh Mary Kate knows this is my true self in this book. Like I my true self in this book. Like I my true self in this book. Like I haven't held anything back. haven't held anything back. haven't held anything back. And she also knows And she also knows And she also knows um the truth behind um the truth behind um the truth behind the gains, the great gains that I talk the gains, the great gains that I talk the gains, the great gains that I talk about because she's lived them. about because she's lived them. about because she's lived them. Um Um Um when I talk about four generations of when I talk about four generations of when I talk about four generations of Wilkins spending an afternoon together, Wilkins spending an afternoon together, Wilkins spending an afternoon together, that's her and her kids in that in that that's her and her kids in that in that that's her and her kids in that in that part of the story. So, I feel I felt so part of the story. So, I feel I felt so part of the story. So, I feel I felt so grateful that she, in her 20s, grateful that she, in her 20s, grateful that she, in her 20s, already recognizes already recognizes already recognizes the reciprocal benefits of um honoring the reciprocal benefits of um honoring the reciprocal benefits of um honoring the elderly the elderly the elderly and not in a not in a and not in a not in a and not in a not in a uh uh uh not just in a philosophical sense, like not just in a philosophical sense, like not just in a philosophical sense, like in a very practical sense.

in a very practical sense. in a very practical sense. And I think, gosh, I wish I'd known And I think, gosh, I wish I'd known And I think, gosh, I wish I'd known that. I wish I'd been so dumb. You know, that. I wish I'd been so dumb. You know, that. I wish I'd been so dumb. You know, I don't know if I I can't remember that I don't know if I I can't remember that I don't know if I I can't remember that was one of the things I put in there, was one of the things I put in there, was one of the things I put in there, but I was so dumb. I was so vain when I but I was so dumb. I was so vain when I but I was so dumb. I was so vain when I was her age. was her age. was her age. So vain. And I know that that's just So vain. And I know that that's just So vain. And I know that that's just kind of how it goes. Like a lot of the kind of how it goes. Like a lot of the kind of how it goes. Like a lot of the things that I get into in this that list things that I get into in this that list things that I get into in this that list at the end, I recognize it's hindsight. at the end, I recognize it's hindsight. at the end, I recognize it's hindsight. Like it wasn't going to go differently Like it wasn't going to go differently Like it wasn't going to go differently because that's who I was. because that's who I was. because that's who I was. But we don't, you know, the the the But we don't, you know, the the the But we don't, you know, the the the beauty of sanctification is you don't beauty of sanctification is you don't beauty of sanctification is you don't stay who you were. stay who you were. stay who you were. And so some of the things I put there, And so some of the things I put there, And so some of the things I put there, as much as they are confession, they're as much as they are confession, they're as much as they are confession, they're also a celebration that the Lord has also a celebration that the Lord has also a celebration that the Lord has done a work in me. And he knew exactly done a work in me. And he knew exactly done a work in me. And he knew exactly what it would take to do it. So, um what it would take to do it. So, um what it would take to do it. So, um and I don't look back on it as like and I don't look back on it as like and I don't look back on it as like um um um a discipline that was unkind. I think a discipline that was unkind. I think a discipline that was unkind. I think it's a discipline that ended up being a it's a discipline that ended up being a it's a discipline that ended up being a blessing blessing blessing even as it was something hard. So, even as it was something hard. So, even as it was something hard. So, that's what I hope for everyone. And I I that's what I hope for everyone. And I I that's what I hope for everyone. And I I fully recognize all families are fully recognize all families are fully recognize all families are different. Um things happen at different different. Um things happen at different different. Um things happen at different points in life. We have different points in life. We have different points in life. We have different relationships with our parents. Um relationships with our parents. Um relationships with our parents. Um my relationship with my mother was a my relationship with my mother was a my relationship with my mother was a hard one.

hard one. hard one. I can't romanticize it. And yet um I can't romanticize it. And yet um I can't romanticize it. And yet um showing honor to her, showing honor to her, showing honor to her, I I will never look back on that with I I will never look back on that with I I will never look back on that with regret. Never, never, never. regret. Never, never, never. regret. Never, never, never. Uh I only think I think I could have Uh I only think I think I could have Uh I only think I think I could have done more. You know, those are the only done more. You know, those are the only done more. You know, those are the only regrets is that I didn't figure it out regrets is that I didn't figure it out regrets is that I didn't figure it out soon enough and that I didn't do more. soon enough and that I didn't do more. soon enough and that I didn't do more. And I can look on those regrets with And I can look on those regrets with And I can look on those regrets with with with charity for my former self. with with charity for my former self. with with charity for my former self. >> Well, we're the better for it, Jen, from >> Well, we're the better for it, Jen, from >> Well, we're the better for it, Jen, from learning learning learning uh uh uh from you and learning with you in that from you and learning with you in that from you and learning with you in that sanctification process. sanctification process. sanctification process. And um as reflecting on our own lives And um as reflecting on our own lives And um as reflecting on our own lives and how they and how they differ. and how they and how they differ. and how they and how they differ. Um boy, there's so much more we could Um boy, there's so much more we could Um boy, there's so much more we could talk about here. We'll have to pick up talk about here. We'll have to pick up talk about here. We'll have to pick up that conversation in person another that conversation in person another that conversation in person another time. Uh the book is Dust to Dust, Aging time. Uh the book is Dust to Dust, Aging time. Uh the book is Dust to Dust, Aging Wisely in an Anti-Aging World. The Wisely in an Anti-Aging World. The Wisely in an Anti-Aging World. The author, my guest here, author, my guest here, author, my guest here, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> Jen Wilkin, the publisher Crossway. >> Jen Wilkin, the publisher Crossway. >> Jen Wilkin, the publisher Crossway. Great book. I think it's going to start Great book. I think it's going to start Great book. I think it's going to start a lot of those conversations just like a lot of those conversations just like a lot of those conversations just like you're hoping and praying, Jen. Thank you're hoping and praying, Jen. Thank you're hoping and praying, Jen. Thank you. you. you. >> so. [music] Thanks for having me on.

>> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to Gospelbound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in [music] hope.