Why Therapy Can’t Replace the Church [Gospelbound - Ep. 183]

Culturally speaking, our default is that Culturally speaking, our default is that we have exchanged we have exchanged we have exchanged power for trust as the currency for power for trust as the currency for power for trust as the currency for relationship. And when that is the case, relationship. And when that is the case, relationship. And when that is the case, unity becomes impossible. But when unity becomes impossible. But when unity becomes impossible. But when pastors pastors pastors make that same mistake, then conformity make that same mistake, then conformity make that same mistake, then conformity becomes a temptation. >> You will find many books on the biblical >> You will find many books on the biblical and practical importance of the local and practical importance of the local and practical importance of the local church. I wrote one myself a few years church. I wrote one myself a few years church. I wrote one myself a few years ago with Jonathan Leeman called ago with Jonathan Leeman called ago with Jonathan Leeman called Rediscover Church, Why the Body of Rediscover Church, Why the Body of Rediscover Church, Why the Body of Christ is Essential. Christ is Essential. Christ is Essential. But few books can match the way Brad But few books can match the way Brad But few books can match the way Brad Edwards shows us the need for the church Edwards shows us the need for the church Edwards shows us the need for the church amid rampant anxiety, division, and amid rampant anxiety, division, and amid rampant anxiety, division, and individualism. Not only do our Not only individualism. Not only do our Not only individualism. Not only do our Not only our churches, but our whole societies, I our churches, but our whole societies, I our churches, but our whole societies, I believe, I said this in my commendation believe, I said this in my commendation believe, I said this in my commendation of the book, would be transformed by of the book, would be transformed by of the book, would be transformed by implementing the wisdom found in this implementing the wisdom found in this implementing the wisdom found in this book called The Reasoned For Church. Uh book called The Reasoned For Church. Uh book called The Reasoned For Church. Uh Brad is the church planter of The Table Brad is the church planter of The Table Brad is the church planter of The Table Church in Lafayette, Colorado, outside Church in Lafayette, Colorado, outside Church in Lafayette, Colorado, outside Boulder. His debut book has been justly Boulder. His debut book has been justly Boulder. His debut book has been justly acclaimed, strongly recommended. He won acclaimed, strongly recommended. He won acclaimed, strongly recommended. He won the 2025 Christianity Today Book of the the 2025 Christianity Today Book of the the 2025 Christianity Today Book of the Year Award and also finished first in Year Award and also finished first in Year Award and also finished first in the Church and Pastoral Leadership the Church and Pastoral Leadership the Church and Pastoral Leadership category. And he was the winner of The category. And he was the winner of The category. And he was the winner of The Gospel Coalition's award for first time Gospel Coalition's award for first time Gospel Coalition's award for first time author that year as well, a category author that year as well, a category author that year as well, a category that I had overseen for many years.

that I had overseen for many years. that I had overseen for many years. I'm grateful that he joins me now to I'm grateful that he joins me now to I'm grateful that he joins me now to talk about everything from authority and talk about everything from authority and talk about everything from authority and institutions, two of our favorite institutions, two of our favorite institutions, two of our favorite topics, to anxiety and whether unity topics, to anxiety and whether unity topics, to anxiety and whether unity should be the goal for a church. Brad, should be the goal for a church. Brad, should be the goal for a church. Brad, thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. thanks for joining me on Gospel Bound. >> Thanks so much for having me, Collin. >> Thanks so much for having me, Collin. >> Thanks so much for having me, Collin. >> All right, so I'm going to ask you right >> All right, so I'm going to ask you right >> All right, so I'm going to ask you right off the bat, Brad, rank these three off the bat, Brad, rank these three off the bat, Brad, rank these three factors in the decline of trust in factors in the decline of trust in factors in the decline of trust in church authority. church authority. church authority. Number one, Number one, Number one, the overall decline of institutions. the overall decline of institutions. the overall decline of institutions. Number two, Number two, Number two, the behavior of church leaders. the behavior of church leaders. the behavior of church leaders. Number three, Number three, Number three, the nearly universal adoption of social the nearly universal adoption of social the nearly universal adoption of social media and smartphones. Again, ranking media and smartphones. Again, ranking media and smartphones. Again, ranking these factors these factors these factors and and how they contribute to the and and how they contribute to the and and how they contribute to the decline of trust decline of trust decline of trust in the authority of church leaders. in the authority of church leaders. in the authority of church leaders. Again, overall decline of institutions, Again, overall decline of institutions, Again, overall decline of institutions, behavior of church leaders, nearly behavior of church leaders, nearly behavior of church leaders, nearly universal adoption of social media and universal adoption of social media and universal adoption of social media and smartphones. Go. smartphones. Go. smartphones. Go. Can I filibuster and ask for your Can I filibuster and ask for your Can I filibuster and ask for your definition of decline? definition of decline? definition of decline? >> A broader sense that I cannot look up to >> A broader sense that I cannot look up to >> A broader sense that I cannot look up to or trust or should even consider or trust or should even consider or trust or should even consider following following following the leaders of the church or even just the leaders of the church or even just the leaders of the church or even just my church. Wow. I would say my church. Wow. I would say my church. Wow. I would say I would rank them in the order of I would rank them in the order of I would rank them in the order of decline of institutions, decline of institutions, decline of institutions, a very close second, only because it's a very close second, only because it's a very close second, only because it's more of an accelerant, more of an accelerant, more of an accelerant, which is social media, which is social media, which is social media, and and then third, the uh failure of and and then third, the uh failure of and and then third, the uh failure of church leaders, because I don't think church leaders, because I don't think church leaders, because I don't think that the failure of church leaders is

that the failure of church leaders is that the failure of church leaders is new. new. new. Um I I just think that's as old as sin Um I I just think that's as old as sin Um I I just think that's as old as sin and humanity itself. Uh but I would and humanity itself. Uh but I would and humanity itself. Uh but I would argue that that is something that we argue that that is something that we argue that that is something that we have become so much more hyper aware of have become so much more hyper aware of have become so much more hyper aware of because of social media and the fact because of social media and the fact because of social media and the fact that it is delivering to us content that that it is delivering to us content that that it is delivering to us content that makes us more outraged and distrustful makes us more outraged and distrustful makes us more outraged and distrustful of institutions very intentionally, of institutions very intentionally, of institutions very intentionally, which is only accelerating that primary which is only accelerating that primary which is only accelerating that primary uh dynamic culturally. I mean, we get by uh dynamic culturally. I mean, we get by uh dynamic culturally. I mean, we get by it honestly. We are a country founded in it honestly. We are a country founded in it honestly. We are a country founded in rebellion to a rebellion to a rebellion to a a much tighter and uh more authoritarian a much tighter and uh more authoritarian a much tighter and uh more authoritarian institution, which is the monarchy of of institution, which is the monarchy of of institution, which is the monarchy of of England. And so, I I mean, this is in England. And so, I I mean, this is in England. And so, I I mean, this is in our DNA. our DNA. our DNA. Uh in individualism in general, and it's Uh in individualism in general, and it's Uh in individualism in general, and it's it was for many many years, for two it was for many many years, for two it was for many many years, for two centuries, we had a a pretty healthy centuries, we had a a pretty healthy centuries, we had a a pretty healthy tension tension tension uh between the value of institutions and uh between the value of institutions and uh between the value of institutions and the value of individual freedom. And the value of individual freedom. And the value of individual freedom. And those two things are the kind of left those two things are the kind of left those two things are the kind of left and right pedals on a bike that makes a and right pedals on a bike that makes a and right pedals on a bike that makes a society healthy and move forward and society healthy and move forward and society healthy and move forward and also formative in healthy and virtuous also formative in healthy and virtuous also formative in healthy and virtuous ways, but we have become dramatically ways, but we have become dramatically ways, but we have become dramatically imbalanced probably starting around imbalanced probably starting around imbalanced probably starting around sometime in the middle mid-late 20th sometime in the middle mid-late 20th sometime in the middle mid-late 20th 20th century. So, the trade-off here 20th century. So, the trade-off here 20th century. So, the trade-off here that you I know you've heard this many that you I know you've heard this many that you I know you've heard this many times. I've heard it as well. Is that if times. I've heard it as well. Is that if times. I've heard it as well. Is that if there's nothing new about the bad there's nothing new about the bad there's nothing new about the bad behavior of church leaders and those behavior of church leaders and those behavior of church leaders and those could be near or far. They could be could be near or far. They could be could be near or far. They could be domestic. They could be international.

domestic. They could be international. domestic. They could be international. They could be anywhere. If there's They could be anywhere. If there's They could be anywhere. If there's nothing new about that, nothing new about that, nothing new about that, then why isn't it good news that those then why isn't it good news that those then why isn't it good news that those leaders are finally now being brought to leaders are finally now being brought to leaders are finally now being brought to account? They're being exposed. They're account? They're being exposed. They're account? They're being exposed. They're being deposed from their positions where being deposed from their positions where being deposed from their positions where they've been exploiting and manipulating they've been exploiting and manipulating they've been exploiting and manipulating and really getting away with all sorts and really getting away with all sorts and really getting away with all sorts of chicanery for ever. Well, that's a of chicanery for ever. Well, that's a of chicanery for ever. Well, that's a good use of the word chicanery first of good use of the word chicanery first of good use of the word chicanery first of all, but I I I would say all, but I I I would say all, but I I I would say I I would say that accountability is I I would say that accountability is I I would say that accountability is good. I'm Presbyterian. I you know, good. I'm Presbyterian. I you know, good. I'm Presbyterian. I you know, you're you don't become Presbyterian by you're you don't become Presbyterian by you're you don't become Presbyterian by convenience but by conviction and and convenience but by conviction and and convenience but by conviction and and generally an awareness of how easy it is generally an awareness of how easy it is generally an awareness of how easy it is for individual leaders to get go off the for individual leaders to get go off the for individual leaders to get go off the rails without accountability. And so, I rails without accountability. And so, I rails without accountability. And so, I would I I I would say yes and amen to would I I I would say yes and amen to would I I I would say yes and amen to accountability. I would argue that accountability. I would argue that accountability. I would argue that social media hasn't been a terribly just social media hasn't been a terribly just social media hasn't been a terribly just accountability um because if you I mean, accountability um because if you I mean, accountability um because if you I mean, there's so many stories of this. I cited there's so many stories of this. I cited there's so many stories of this. I cited a New York Times article in my book a New York Times article in my book a New York Times article in my book talking about the Facebook groups called talking about the Facebook groups called talking about the Facebook groups called are we dating the same guy? And in one are we dating the same guy? And in one are we dating the same guy? And in one sense, it absolutely did make sense, it absolutely did make sense, it absolutely did make accountability for women going on you accountability for women going on you accountability for women going on you know, bad dates and potentially like know, bad dates and potentially like know, bad dates and potentially like genuinely risky unsafe dates. It did genuinely risky unsafe dates. It did genuinely risky unsafe dates. It did help with that, but it also made it help with that, but it also made it help with that, but it also made it completely easy to trash the reputation completely easy to trash the reputation completely easy to trash the reputation and ruin the careers of of men who were and ruin the careers of of men who were and ruin the careers of of men who were just maybe just just maybe just just maybe just awkward and and just like rude and maybe awkward and and just like rude and maybe awkward and and just like rude and maybe not a good fit. And there's no way to not a good fit. And there's no way to not a good fit. And there's no way to have accountability in both directions

have accountability in both directions have accountability in both directions because social media just ends up because social media just ends up because social media just ends up displacing that uh injustice and that displacing that uh injustice and that displacing that uh injustice and that harm rather than resolving it or fixing harm rather than resolving it or fixing harm rather than resolving it or fixing it. And so we we just don't have like it. And so we we just don't have like it. And so we we just don't have like social media and and just anything social media and and just anything social media and and just anything online just can't It's It's not a full online just can't It's It's not a full online just can't It's It's not a full picture. It's not a silver bullet that picture. It's not a silver bullet that picture. It's not a silver bullet that we think it is. But for those of us who we think it is. But for those of us who we think it is. But for those of us who are logging on online and seeing only are logging on online and seeing only are logging on online and seeing only the context that is happening online, the context that is happening online, the context that is happening online, which is a fraction of a fraction, it it which is a fraction of a fraction, it it which is a fraction of a fraction, it it seems that way and it feels very seems that way and it feels very seems that way and it feels very satisfying, but it's actually not satisfying, but it's actually not satisfying, but it's actually not helping anything. It's actually sewing helping anything. It's actually sewing helping anything. It's actually sewing more distrust than is warranted. more distrust than is warranted. more distrust than is warranted. >> Yeah, this is just something I go around >> Yeah, this is just something I go around >> Yeah, this is just something I go around in my head so many different times and in my head so many different times and in my head so many different times and reason I asked the question this way is reason I asked the question this way is reason I asked the question this way is because I I think you ask most people, because I I think you ask most people, because I I think you ask most people, they would they would they would respond very simply, "Oh, it's because respond very simply, "Oh, it's because respond very simply, "Oh, it's because church leaders are doing bad stuff." church leaders are doing bad stuff." church leaders are doing bad stuff." It's a simple answer. And they may not It's a simple answer. And they may not It's a simple answer. And they may not be aware of the broader context where be aware of the broader context where be aware of the broader context where institutional distrust is endemic to our institutional distrust is endemic to our institutional distrust is endemic to our society. And it's it's been collapsing, society. And it's it's been collapsing, society. And it's it's been collapsing, like you said, um into the mid like you said, um into the mid like you said, um into the mid especially the late 20th century. That's especially the late 20th century. That's especially the late 20th century. That's why in the year uh 2000 you have Bowling why in the year uh 2000 you have Bowling why in the year uh 2000 you have Bowling Alone from Putnam.

Alone from Putnam. Alone from Putnam. So, there's a move away from So, there's a move away from So, there's a move away from institutions already, but then, as you institutions already, but then, as you institutions already, but then, as you point out in your second uh second point out in your second uh second point out in your second uh second observation, your second ranking there, observation, your second ranking there, observation, your second ranking there, there's this really significant there's this really significant there's this really significant accelerant that happens in the 2010s. accelerant that happens in the 2010s. accelerant that happens in the 2010s. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and really the late late part of the >> Um and really the late late part of the >> Um and really the late late part of the first decade of the 21st century. And first decade of the 21st century. And first decade of the 21st century. And then that just goes goes wild, but then that just goes goes wild, but then that just goes goes wild, but given the fact that it's nearly given the fact that it's nearly given the fact that it's nearly universal, universal, universal, that's what suggests it can't just be that's what suggests it can't just be that's what suggests it can't just be the behavior of the church leaders or the behavior of the church leaders or the behavior of the church leaders or the behavior of every leader. And then the behavior of every leader. And then the behavior of every leader. And then now you have a new problem. now you have a new problem. now you have a new problem. You have a new problem of the You have a new problem of the You have a new problem of the platforming and developing of both platforming and developing of both platforming and developing of both leaders who are themselves grandstanding leaders who are themselves grandstanding leaders who are themselves grandstanding and grandstanders whose grandstanding is and grandstanders whose grandstanding is and grandstanders whose grandstanding is to tear down other leaders. to tear down other leaders. to tear down other leaders. So, a mix of a whole bunch of things So, a mix of a whole bunch of things So, a mix of a whole bunch of things like you said of of positive like you said of of positive like you said of of positive accountability but also accountability but also accountability but also really negative non-just accountability really negative non-just accountability really negative non-just accountability than just more of the bad stuff. More of than just more of the bad stuff. More of than just more of the bad stuff. More of the performative outrage.

the performative outrage. the performative outrage. And now then you have this all mixed up And now then you have this all mixed up And now then you have this all mixed up where you say well politicians are where you say well politicians are where you say well politicians are distrusted distrusted distrusted and in many cases rightfully so because and in many cases rightfully so because and in many cases rightfully so because so many of them are doing nothing but so many of them are doing nothing but so many of them are doing nothing but performative outrage. performative outrage. performative outrage. And now that feels like a doom loop. And now that feels like a doom loop. And now that feels like a doom loop. >> Yeah, now I mean I know that you've all >> Yeah, now I mean I know that you've all >> Yeah, now I mean I know that you've all have been as kind of a free space in the have been as kind of a free space in the have been as kind of a free space in the bingo card for you. But I mean his his bingo card for you. But I mean his his bingo card for you. But I mean his his observation that observation that observation that the the lens that leaders view their the the lens that leaders view their the the lens that leaders view their role in institutions shifted at some role in institutions shifted at some role in institutions shifted at some point or at least past the tipping point or at least past the tipping point or at least past the tipping point. It's not like it wasn't there point. It's not like it wasn't there point. It's not like it wasn't there always, you know, but it just it became always, you know, but it just it became always, you know, but it just it became primary and dominant which is this idea primary and dominant which is this idea primary and dominant which is this idea that leaders started seeing the that leaders started seeing the that leaders started seeing the institutions as a platform for their institutions as a platform for their institutions as a platform for their performance rather than as an performance rather than as an performance rather than as an institution that they are responsible institution that they are responsible institution that they are responsible for and to. And so the primary for and to. And so the primary for and to. And so the primary constituency became those outside the constituency became those outside the constituency became those outside the institution rather than inside. But even institution rather than inside. But even institution rather than inside. But even then like when we're talking about the then like when we're talking about the then like when we're talking about the church specifically we didn't help church specifically we didn't help church specifically we didn't help ourselves. This is a bit of a perfect ourselves. This is a bit of a perfect ourselves. This is a bit of a perfect storm reality that storm reality that storm reality that at the same time social media kind of at the same time social media kind of at the same time social media kind of made that switch toward a performative made that switch toward a performative made that switch toward a performative lens lens lens we were caught very flat-footed. The we were caught very flat-footed. The we were caught very flat-footed. The American church American church American church didn't have a good immune system for didn't have a good immune system for didn't have a good immune system for resisting that. And I I resisting that. And I I resisting that. And I I a good example of that is is normally a good example of that is is normally a good example of that is is normally whenever someone says to me like you whenever someone says to me like you whenever someone says to me like you know, the church that I go to or the know, the church that I go to or the know, the church that I go to or the church that I went to I came from you church that I went to I came from you church that I went to I came from you know, it's just too institutional.

know, it's just too institutional. know, it's just too institutional. When I ask them like okay, so when you When I ask them like okay, so when you When I ask them like okay, so when you say to me institution I I I I know what say to me institution I I I I know what say to me institution I I I I know what you mean but but can you explain what you mean but but can you explain what you mean but but can you explain what you mean? And normally they say you you mean? And normally they say you you mean? And normally they say you know, they say things like it just seems know, they say things like it just seems know, they say things like it just seems to be like all about growth for growth's to be like all about growth for growth's to be like all about growth for growth's sake. It's all about the numbers, you sake. It's all about the numbers, you sake. It's all about the numbers, you know, it's it's just there's so many know, it's it's just there's so many know, it's it's just there's so many programs. I'm missing community. And I'm programs. I'm missing community. And I'm programs. I'm missing community. And I'm like, okay, that's really good and like, okay, that's really good and like, okay, that's really good and helpful, but what you're describing helpful, but what you're describing helpful, but what you're describing isn't the church is too institutional. isn't the church is too institutional. isn't the church is too institutional. But a church is not institutional enough But a church is not institutional enough But a church is not institutional enough and is actually too corporate. And and I and is actually too corporate. And and I and is actually too corporate. And and I talk about that in the first chapter of talk about that in the first chapter of talk about that in the first chapter of spirit on spiritual pragmatism, how we spirit on spiritual pragmatism, how we spirit on spiritual pragmatism, how we started using marketplace logic rather started using marketplace logic rather started using marketplace logic rather than kingdom logic to to view the than kingdom logic to to view the than kingdom logic to to view the church. And that again, that was before church. And that again, that was before church. And that again, that was before social media. So I don't want to blame social media. So I don't want to blame social media. So I don't want to blame social media as a monocausal explanation social media as a monocausal explanation social media as a monocausal explanation for all that ails us, though for all that ails us, though for all that ails us, though maybe 98%. maybe 98%. maybe 98%. Uh but Uh but Uh but >> nearly monocausal. >> nearly monocausal. >> nearly monocausal. >> Yes, nearly monocausal. That's exactly >> Yes, nearly monocausal. That's exactly >> Yes, nearly monocausal. That's exactly right. Uh NMC. Um but but we didn't have right. Uh NMC. Um but but we didn't have right. Uh NMC. Um but but we didn't have a good immune system and we had kind of a good immune system and we had kind of a good immune system and we had kind of um been resting on our laurels and um been resting on our laurels and um been resting on our laurels and hadn't really had to pay any hadn't really had to pay any hadn't really had to pay any consequences for that departure that consequences for that departure that consequences for that departure that from what is the historic norm for the from what is the historic norm for the from what is the historic norm for the church. Um so and that doesn't mean it church. Um so and that doesn't mean it church. Um so and that doesn't mean it again, it's good intentions, right? A again, it's good intentions, right? A again, it's good intentions, right? A lot of those decisions were made in the lot of those decisions were made in the lot of those decisions were made in the aim of trying to reach people who were aim of trying to reach people who were aim of trying to reach people who were not comfortable and did not feel not comfortable and did not feel not comfortable and did not feel terribly, you know, comfortable in an terribly, you know, comfortable in an terribly, you know, comfortable in an institution or spiritual institution institution or spiritual institution institution or spiritual institution like the church. But again, that's why I like the church. But again, that's why I like the church. But again, that's why I say, you know, in your ranking there say, you know, in your ranking there say, you know, in your ranking there that I think that the kind of abandoning that I think that the kind of abandoning that I think that the kind of abandoning and distrust of institutions as a and distrust of institutions as a and distrust of institutions as a cultural default for us is is primarily

cultural default for us is is primarily cultural default for us is is primarily responsible because that is the common responsible because that is the common responsible because that is the common denominator for all of these different denominator for all of these different denominator for all of these different catalysts. catalysts. catalysts. >> You thought the rankings were over with >> You thought the rankings were over with >> You thought the rankings were over with the first question, Brad. the first question, Brad. the first question, Brad. Oh, you were mistaken, my friend. Oh, you were mistaken, my friend. Oh, you were mistaken, my friend. >> It's going to get even better. I know. >> It's going to get even better. I know. >> It's going to get even better. I know. >> continuing with question number two. >> continuing with question number two. >> continuing with question number two. When you meet someone who does not see a When you meet someone who does not see a When you meet someone who does not see a reason for church reason for church reason for church and they change their mind and they change their mind and they change their mind and they do see a reason for church, and they do see a reason for church, and they do see a reason for church, what is it that changes their mind? what is it that changes their mind? what is it that changes their mind? Number one, Number one, Number one, Bible verses. Number two, Bible verses. Number two, Bible verses. Number two, pastoral exhortation. Number three, pastoral exhortation. Number three, pastoral exhortation. Number three, experience with the body of Christ. experience with the body of Christ. experience with the body of Christ. Rank them. Rank them. Rank them. >> By far, experience with the body of >> By far, experience with the body of >> By far, experience with the body of Christ. Christ. Christ. And if I could tweak your second one of And if I could tweak your second one of And if I could tweak your second one of pastoral exhortation, I would say it's pastoral exhortation, I would say it's pastoral exhortation, I would say it's number two, and the close second is number two, and the close second is number two, and the close second is Christians who are able to articulate Christians who are able to articulate Christians who are able to articulate their experience in the body of Christ their experience in the body of Christ their experience in the body of Christ without number three. without number three. without number three. Because number three will come once you Because number three will come once you Because number three will come once you have an experience in the body of have an experience in the body of have an experience in the body of Christ, but by that point, you're kind Christ, but by that point, you're kind Christ, but by that point, you're kind of already there. Uh you're at least of already there. Uh you're at least of already there. Uh you're at least open to that idea, but I don't know that open to that idea, but I don't know that open to that idea, but I don't know that that's a necessarily a big factor coming that's a necessarily a big factor coming that's a necessarily a big factor coming in. That said, I think and and maybe to in. That said, I think and and maybe to in. That said, I think and and maybe to combine the, you know, the the the combine the, you know, the the the combine the, you know, the the the biblical biblical biblical um um um references and the experience, the references and the experience, the references and the experience, the Christian experience of church, like Christian experience of church, like Christian experience of church, like being able to talk about the church in a being able to talk about the church in a being able to talk about the church in a way that is explaining scriptures' way that is explaining scriptures' way that is explaining scriptures' understanding of the church in a way understanding of the church in a way understanding of the church in a way that's intelligible to a very radically

that's intelligible to a very radically that's intelligible to a very radically individualistic culture is so important. individualistic culture is so important. individualistic culture is so important. And like if you had to, And like if you had to, And like if you had to, you know, if you had to uh summarize my you know, if you had to uh summarize my you know, if you had to uh summarize my book in in a very pithy, short book in in a very pithy, short book in in a very pithy, short statement, it's a it's a cultural statement, it's a it's a cultural statement, it's a it's a cultural apologetic for the institutional church. apologetic for the institutional church. apologetic for the institutional church. And it it is um I'm hoping that I'm not And it it is um I'm hoping that I'm not And it it is um I'm hoping that I'm not just saying we need this language, but just saying we need this language, but just saying we need this language, but I'm hoping that I'm demonstrating how to I'm hoping that I'm demonstrating how to I'm hoping that I'm demonstrating how to use that language in the exhortation use that language in the exhortation use that language in the exhortation that I make in the book, um which is that I make in the book, um which is that I make in the book, um which is primarily for Christians who are, you primarily for Christians who are, you primarily for Christians who are, you know, know, know, at least open to the idea of church, if at least open to the idea of church, if at least open to the idea of church, if not probably those who are discouraged not probably those who are discouraged not probably those who are discouraged and sad that their friends who either and sad that their friends who either and sad that their friends who either are Christians are deconstructing out of are Christians are deconstructing out of are Christians are deconstructing out of the church or their neighbors who they the church or their neighbors who they the church or their neighbors who they don't know how to how to how to explain don't know how to how to how to explain don't know how to how to how to explain why their invitation isn't into a cult why their invitation isn't into a cult why their invitation isn't into a cult or in something that is inherently or in something that is inherently or in something that is inherently harmful as an institution, because that harmful as an institution, because that harmful as an institution, because that is the kind of that's the hurdle you is the kind of that's the hurdle you is the kind of that's the hurdle you have to get past. have to get past. have to get past. >> I would assume that a lot of this is >> I would assume that a lot of this is >> I would assume that a lot of this is shaped by your experience in Colorado. shaped by your experience in Colorado. shaped by your experience in Colorado. Uh Uh Uh I've long heard from Colorado it's the I've long heard from Colorado it's the I've long heard from Colorado it's the place that you go to escape your place that you go to escape your place that you go to escape your churches and families and other places churches and families and other places churches and families and other places and maybe especially Boulder. Is that and maybe especially Boulder. Is that and maybe especially Boulder. Is that true still?

true still? true still? >> Oh, yeah. I mean >> Oh, yeah. I mean >> Oh, yeah. I mean it's Boulder is So, in Lafayette we're, it's Boulder is So, in Lafayette we're, it's Boulder is So, in Lafayette we're, you know, 15 minutes dead east of you know, 15 minutes dead east of you know, 15 minutes dead east of Boulder and a whole lot of our people at Boulder and a whole lot of our people at Boulder and a whole lot of our people at the table work in Boulder and it Boulder the table work in Boulder and it Boulder the table work in Boulder and it Boulder is typically known as a church planting is typically known as a church planting is typically known as a church planting graveyard. graveyard. graveyard. Um Um Um I I I've seen in the 14-plus years I've I I I've seen in the 14-plus years I've I I I've seen in the 14-plus years I've lived in Colorado and in the Boulder lived in Colorado and in the Boulder lived in Colorado and in the Boulder region, I've seen at least 50 or 60 region, I've seen at least 50 or 60 region, I've seen at least 50 or 60 church plants start and then close their church plants start and then close their church plants start and then close their doors before really getting any momentum doors before really getting any momentum doors before really getting any momentum or becoming sustainable. And that's I'm or becoming sustainable. And that's I'm or becoming sustainable. And that's I'm I'm I'm I'm I'm being pretty conservative in the I'm being pretty conservative in the I'm being pretty conservative in the estimate. I know other pastors who've estimate. I know other pastors who've estimate. I know other pastors who've said as high as 75 or 100 over the same said as high as 75 or 100 over the same said as high as 75 or 100 over the same period. So, it's it is it is a bug period. So, it's it is it is a bug period. So, it's it is it is a bug zapper for church planting. And the zapper for church planting. And the zapper for church planting. And the reason why it is so difficult is even reason why it is so difficult is even reason why it is so difficult is even and I've heard that explicitly from and I've heard that explicitly from and I've heard that explicitly from neighbors. Like I I literally came here neighbors. Like I I literally came here neighbors. Like I I literally came here to get away from evangelicalism. So, to get away from evangelicalism. So, to get away from evangelicalism. So, please keep that to yourself, right? please keep that to yourself, right? please keep that to yourself, right? It's it's it's cordial, but it's very It's it's it's cordial, but it's very It's it's it's cordial, but it's very clear, right? But even if that's not the clear, right? But even if that's not the clear, right? But even if that's not the case, by definition Colorado is a place case, by definition Colorado is a place case, by definition Colorado is a place where there are vanishingly few actual where there are vanishingly few actual where there are vanishingly few actual natives.

natives. natives. Um I joke that I'm not a native, but we Um I joke that I'm not a native, but we Um I joke that I'm not a native, but we made two of them. made two of them. made two of them. Um I have two kids. And the um but if Um I have two kids. And the um but if Um I have two kids. And the um but if you moved here from somewhere else, by you moved here from somewhere else, by you moved here from somewhere else, by definition it means that there's definition it means that there's definition it means that there's something about Colorado that you are something about Colorado that you are something about Colorado that you are pursuing and you value more than the pursuing and you value more than the pursuing and you value more than the community and the place and the people community and the place and the people community and the place and the people that you came from. So, even if that's that you came from. So, even if that's that you came from. So, even if that's not an explicit thing, it is a not an explicit thing, it is a not an explicit thing, it is a functional value functional value functional value uh and and a lesser value than the one uh and and a lesser value than the one uh and and a lesser value than the one that you are um come whatever is drawing that you are um come whatever is drawing that you are um come whatever is drawing you to Colorado, whether it's the you to Colorado, whether it's the you to Colorado, whether it's the lifestyle, the recreation, uh the career lifestyle, the recreation, uh the career lifestyle, the recreation, uh the career advancement because there's a whole lot advancement because there's a whole lot advancement because there's a whole lot of um of um of um major Silicon Valley companies and tech major Silicon Valley companies and tech major Silicon Valley companies and tech and engineering that is all out here in and engineering that is all out here in and engineering that is all out here in the Boulder region especially. the Boulder region especially. the Boulder region especially. >> I suppose that's exacerbated by the fact >> I suppose that's exacerbated by the fact >> I suppose that's exacerbated by the fact that you would have some shifting within that you would have some shifting within that you would have some shifting within the state itself and with the historic the state itself and with the historic the state itself and with the historic prominence of Colorado Springs as the prominence of Colorado Springs as the prominence of Colorado Springs as the backdrop. Is that right? backdrop. Is that right? backdrop. Is that right? >> Oh, no. It's It's >> Oh, no. It's It's >> Oh, no. It's It's It's really interesting. When we first It's really interesting. When we first It's really interesting. When we first moved here, Colorado was a very purple moved here, Colorado was a very purple moved here, Colorado was a very purple state. It was pretty evenly split and it state. It was pretty evenly split and it state. It was pretty evenly split and it was basically kind of, you know, Boulder was basically kind of, you know, Boulder was basically kind of, you know, Boulder being very blue, Colorado Springs being being very blue, Colorado Springs being being very blue, Colorado Springs being very red, and then Denver being kind of very red, and then Denver being kind of very red, and then Denver being kind of a mix but still leaning blue because a mix but still leaning blue because a mix but still leaning blue because it's a major metropolitan area.

it's a major metropolitan area. it's a major metropolitan area. But even in Colorado Springs, you have But even in Colorado Springs, you have But even in Colorado Springs, you have the headquarters of so many nationwide the headquarters of so many nationwide the headquarters of so many nationwide Christian and evangelical parachurch Christian and evangelical parachurch Christian and evangelical parachurch ministries. And so, which, you know, ministries. And so, which, you know, ministries. And so, which, you know, parachurch ministries are fine and good, parachurch ministries are fine and good, parachurch ministries are fine and good, but it's also, but it's also, but it's also, in a lot of ways, many of them have in a lot of ways, many of them have in a lot of ways, many of them have started to function apart from the started to function apart from the started to function apart from the church or as a replacement for the church or as a replacement for the church or as a replacement for the church. And that just kind of continues church. And that just kind of continues church. And that just kind of continues to cultivate some of that to cultivate some of that to cultivate some of that anti-institutionalism even among the the anti-institutionalism even among the the anti-institutionalism even among the the Christians in the state. Christians in the state. Christians in the state. I mean, it's This is the place of rugged I mean, it's This is the place of rugged I mean, it's This is the place of rugged individualism and cowboys and its DNA. individualism and cowboys and its DNA. individualism and cowboys and its DNA. So, it we get by it honestly. So, it we get by it honestly. So, it we get by it honestly. >> Not to mention, >> Not to mention, >> Not to mention, you also have the military in Colorado you also have the military in Colorado you also have the military in Colorado Springs, but on top of that, you have Springs, but on top of that, you have Springs, but on top of that, you have the newest, I mean, I guess you could the newest, I mean, I guess you could the newest, I mean, I guess you could add Space Force there, but the Air Force add Space Force there, but the Air Force add Space Force there, but the Air Force has been, has been, has been, I mean, kind of marches to the beat of I mean, kind of marches to the beat of I mean, kind of marches to the beat of its own drum as well as one of the newer its own drum as well as one of the newer its own drum as well as one of the newer newer branches. So, newer branches. So, newer branches. So, interesting institutional connection interesting institutional connection interesting institutional connection there as well. there as well. there as well. All right, so, no more rankings for now.

All right, so, no more rankings for now. All right, so, no more rankings for now. Uh Uh Uh your your book, The Reason for Church, your your book, The Reason for Church, your your book, The Reason for Church, has been widely acclaimed, but what has has been widely acclaimed, but what has has been widely acclaimed, but what has been the most common or even, let's been the most common or even, let's been the most common or even, let's raise the stakes, what's the most raise the stakes, what's the most raise the stakes, what's the most compelling objection to your book? compelling objection to your book? compelling objection to your book? >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Compelling objection to my book. Um Compelling objection to my book. Um Compelling objection to my book. Um I I think in terms of where I I I think in terms of where I I I think in terms of where I an objection that I'm I'm very like an objection that I'm I'm very like an objection that I'm I'm very like sympathetic to and um um sympathetic to and um um sympathetic to and um um I I I honestly just didn't know what to honestly just didn't know what to honestly just didn't know what to how to write only like a chapter on it. how to write only like a chapter on it. how to write only like a chapter on it. It's probably the way that therapeutic It's probably the way that therapeutic It's probably the way that therapeutic culture is functioning and you know, I I culture is functioning and you know, I I culture is functioning and you know, I I stated in there that like good therapy stated in there that like good therapy stated in there that like good therapy is good. Like this is you know, church is good. Like this is you know, church is good. Like this is you know, church is not a replacement for therapy, but is not a replacement for therapy, but is not a replacement for therapy, but it's a foundation that makes therapy a it's a foundation that makes therapy a it's a foundation that makes therapy a whole lot more effective, not just a whole lot more effective, not just a whole lot more effective, not just a peer or a complement to it. And I think peer or a complement to it. And I think peer or a complement to it. And I think one of the the the concerns is in one of the the the concerns is in one of the the the concerns is in talking about therapy culture, um there talking about therapy culture, um there talking about therapy culture, um there is a is a is a uh uh uh you can probably hear some things I'm you can probably hear some things I'm you can probably hear some things I'm not saying around the like the reality not saying around the like the reality not saying around the like the reality that like sometimes a church can be that like sometimes a church can be that like sometimes a church can be unsafe.

unsafe. unsafe. And that And that And that uh uh uh well, how do you know that that is the well, how do you know that that is the well, how do you know that that is the case? And and I I just had to leave that case? And and I I just had to leave that case? And and I I just had to leave that for other books that the entirety of for other books that the entirety of for other books that the entirety of which are written around that. Like you which are written around that. Like you which are written around that. Like you know, Michael Krueger's um Bully Pulpit, know, Michael Krueger's um Bully Pulpit, know, Michael Krueger's um Bully Pulpit, I think is is a pretty solid uh kind of I think is is a pretty solid uh kind of I think is is a pretty solid uh kind of primer on that kind of uh dynamic and primer on that kind of uh dynamic and primer on that kind of uh dynamic and how to understand that. And I just how to understand that. And I just how to understand that. And I just couldn't write that. Uh there's just no couldn't write that. Uh there's just no couldn't write that. Uh there's just no way to do that well in the book. So, I I way to do that well in the book. So, I I way to do that well in the book. So, I I kind of left it alone. kind of left it alone. kind of left it alone. >> Yeah, that is a difficult spot to be in. >> Yeah, that is a difficult spot to be in. >> Yeah, that is a difficult spot to be in. Um I can speak as somebody who's Um I can speak as somebody who's Um I can speak as somebody who's benefited a lot uh from therapy and benefited a lot uh from therapy and benefited a lot uh from therapy and could recommend that to other people. could recommend that to other people. could recommend that to other people. And yet also I would be very much And yet also I would be very much And yet also I would be very much against a lot of what I see in therapy against a lot of what I see in therapy against a lot of what I see in therapy culture. There's a new book by Frey culture. There's a new book by Frey culture. There's a new book by Frey India called Girls and it is very much India called Girls and it is very much India called Girls and it is very much focused on especially online therapy focused on especially online therapy focused on especially online therapy culture and commodification and profit culture and commodification and profit culture and commodification and profit motives. motives. motives. Well, Well, Well, I would I would I would struggle to see why people would be in struggle to see why people would be in struggle to see why people would be in favor of any of that given what she's favor of any of that given what she's favor of any of that given what she's talking about there. And yet still there talking about there. And yet still there talking about there. And yet still there is a sense where if you begin to is a sense where if you begin to is a sense where if you begin to critique that, people hear not what critique that, people hear not what critique that, people hear not what you're saying, but they hear a universal you're saying, but they hear a universal you're saying, but they hear a universal condemnation of therapy condemnation of therapy condemnation of therapy akin to what you have heard and do hear akin to what you have heard and do hear akin to what you have heard and do hear from some other Christians. So, that can from some other Christians. So, that can from some other Christians. So, that can be pretty confusing.

be pretty confusing. be pretty confusing. >> Oh, no, absolutely. And I think it's >> Oh, no, absolutely. And I think it's >> Oh, no, absolutely. And I think it's also made more confusing by the reality also made more confusing by the reality also made more confusing by the reality that I think in the wake that I think in the wake that I think in the wake in the emptying and the of institutions in the emptying and the of institutions in the emptying and the of institutions and de-churching, I think you can make a and de-churching, I think you can make a and de-churching, I think you can make a pretty strong argument that pretty strong argument that pretty strong argument that the the significant increase in people the the significant increase in people the the significant increase in people going to therapy, um which again, I going to therapy, um which again, I going to therapy, um which again, I think is generally a good thing, is also think is generally a good thing, is also think is generally a good thing, is also a way of trying to cope with the with a way of trying to cope with the with a way of trying to cope with the with without an an institutional involvement. without an an institutional involvement. without an an institutional involvement. There's a a therapist in my church when There's a a therapist in my church when There's a a therapist in my church when I was writing that chapter, I was I was writing that chapter, I was I was writing that chapter, I was running a lot of things by her and I was running a lot of things by her and I was running a lot of things by her and I was asking her, I'm like, "Hey, this this asking her, I'm like, "Hey, this this asking her, I'm like, "Hey, this this feels a little bit crazy to ask, but feels a little bit crazy to ask, but feels a little bit crazy to ask, but like, do you ever feel like your any of like, do you ever feel like your any of like, do you ever feel like your any of your clients treat you like a secular your clients treat you like a secular your clients treat you like a secular priest?" priest?" priest?" And she like I I heard I thought I the And she like I I heard I thought I the And she like I I heard I thought I the the call dropped because she was dead the call dropped because she was dead the call dropped because she was dead silent on the other end. She said, "That silent on the other end. She said, "That silent on the other end. She said, "That explains actually a whole lot because explains actually a whole lot because explains actually a whole lot because there are clients who like the clients there are clients who like the clients there are clients who like the clients that see the most growth that see the most growth that see the most growth are not treating her that way, but those are not treating her that way, but those are not treating her that way, but those that are treating her that way really that are treating her that way really that are treating her that way really struggle because what they're expecting struggle because what they're expecting struggle because what they're expecting of a priest is to mediate truth, of a priest is to mediate truth, of a priest is to mediate truth, goodness, and beauty that is already goodness, and beauty that is already goodness, and beauty that is already inside them rather than anything inside them rather than anything inside them rather than anything transcendent or external to them. And transcendent or external to them. And transcendent or external to them. And when you go into therapy expecting and when you go into therapy expecting and when you go into therapy expecting and hoping for that, you're treating a hoping for that, you're treating a hoping for that, you're treating a therapist like a priest and it's it's therapist like a priest and it's it's therapist like a priest and it's it's actually it it only kind of delivers you actually it it only kind of delivers you actually it it only kind of delivers you more deeply into whatever it is that you more deeply into whatever it is that you more deeply into whatever it is that you come from because you actually need come from because you actually need come from because you actually need outside help. And so, that's that's outside help. And so, that's that's outside help. And so, that's that's making some of this conversation a lot making some of this conversation a lot making some of this conversation a lot more difficult because it really does more difficult because it really does more difficult because it really does depend on the posture of the client in depend on the posture of the client in depend on the posture of the client in it, too, not just the therapist or it, too, not just the therapist or it, too, not just the therapist or therapy itself or the the mode of

therapy itself or the the mode of therapy itself or the the mode of therapy or the the the approach. It has therapy or the the the approach. It has therapy or the the the approach. It has to do with our posture when we when we to do with our posture when we when we to do with our posture when we when we approach it. approach it. approach it. >> Well, try publishing an article that >> Well, try publishing an article that >> Well, try publishing an article that suggests that a lot of the reasons suggests that a lot of the reasons suggests that a lot of the reasons people seek therapy are because they people seek therapy are because they people seek therapy are because they don't have friends and they don't don't have friends and they don't don't have friends and they don't don't look for older women to be able to don't look for older women to be able to don't look for older women to be able to help them to navigate some of these help them to navigate some of these help them to navigate some of these dynamics. So, you publish that, which I dynamics. So, you publish that, which I dynamics. So, you publish that, which I don't think is even really disputable, don't think is even really disputable, don't think is even really disputable, and yet what people hear is, "Oh, that's and yet what people hear is, "Oh, that's and yet what people hear is, "Oh, that's the church trying to control women by the church trying to control women by the church trying to control women by telling them not to seek any therapist, telling them not to seek any therapist, telling them not to seek any therapist, and after all, no one in a church is and after all, no one in a church is and after all, no one in a church is remotely qualified to be able to handle remotely qualified to be able to handle remotely qualified to be able to handle the things that are to be handled by the things that are to be handled by the things that are to be handled by therapists." therapists." therapists." Well, that's exactly the the conflict. Well, that's exactly the the conflict. Well, that's exactly the the conflict. That's exactly the problem that we're That's exactly the problem that we're That's exactly the problem that we're that we're facing here. Again, I that we're facing here. Again, I that we're facing here. Again, I I don't think it's in dispute that a lot I don't think it's in dispute that a lot I don't think it's in dispute that a lot of the things that people would have of the things that people would have of the things that people would have gotten help with in the past are through gotten help with in the past are through gotten help with in the past are through their church, with their friends, across their church, with their friends, across their church, with their friends, across generations. generations. generations. But, you don't have those things But, you don't have those things But, you don't have those things anymore. anymore. anymore. You still need help.

You still need help. You still need help. You have to pay for it. You have to pay for it. You have to pay for it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. Yeah, it's it's it's a really it's a Yeah, it's it's it's a really it's a Yeah, it's it's it's a really it's a really hard thing to talk about because really hard thing to talk about because really hard thing to talk about because there are there are absolutely ways there are there are absolutely ways there are there are absolutely ways where it maybe more fundamentalist where it maybe more fundamentalist where it maybe more fundamentalist churches would make that argument. And churches would make that argument. And churches would make that argument. And when that's your experience and or you when that's your experience and or you when that's your experience and or you have social media delivering those have social media delivering those have social media delivering those arguments to your to your for your arguments to your to your for your arguments to your to your for your consumption to become outraged, then consumption to become outraged, then consumption to become outraged, then yeah, that how do you yeah, that how do you yeah, that how do you how do you how do you speak through and how do you how do you speak through and how do you how do you speak through and and and break through that white noise? and and break through that white noise? and and break through that white noise? It's really tough. It's really tough. It's really tough. >> Uh I can't think, Brad, of many causes >> Uh I can't think, Brad, of many causes >> Uh I can't think, Brad, of many causes that are less obviously attractive today that are less obviously attractive today that are less obviously attractive today than institution building. than institution building. than institution building. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> So, hooray for us. >> So, hooray for us. >> So, hooray for us. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Let's talk a little bit Keller Tim >> Let's talk a little bit Keller Tim >> Let's talk a little bit Keller Tim Keller center church movement Keller center church movement Keller center church movement institution dynamics. Um institution dynamics. Um institution dynamics. Um you know, my first major works that I you know, my first major works that I you know, my first major works that I published were on the movement of the published were on the movement of the published were on the movement of the Young Restless Reformed. Um by the time Young Restless Reformed. Um by the time Young Restless Reformed. Um by the time I took this job at the Gospel Coalition, I took this job at the Gospel Coalition, I took this job at the Gospel Coalition, having studied revivals in the past, I having studied revivals in the past, I having studied revivals in the past, I saw in my role as a way of saw in my role as a way of saw in my role as a way of institutionalizing that movement, institutionalizing that movement, institutionalizing that movement, especially through resourcing and especially through resourcing and especially through resourcing and connecting local churches that would be connecting local churches that would be connecting local churches that would be able to sustain whatever movement would able to sustain whatever movement would able to sustain whatever movement would or whatever gains have been accrued by or whatever gains have been accrued by or whatever gains have been accrued by the movement recognizing that the movement recognizing that the movement recognizing that by definition movements don't last. By by definition movements don't last. By by definition movements don't last. By definition revivals don't last. If they definition revivals don't last. If they definition revivals don't last. If they did, we would never we would need a term did, we would never we would need a term did, we would never we would need a term for revival because it would just be for revival because it would just be for revival because it would just be normal state of life there.

normal state of life there. normal state of life there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, movements I think especially to >> So, movements I think especially to >> So, movements I think especially to young people, maybe especially to young young people, maybe especially to young young people, maybe especially to young men, um are a lot more exciting. men, um are a lot more exciting. men, um are a lot more exciting. The internet favors individuals. The internet favors individuals. The internet favors individuals. Um how exactly do we continue to go Um how exactly do we continue to go Um how exactly do we continue to go about promoting something that seems about promoting something that seems about promoting something that seems ooh, I mean just really unattractive. ooh, I mean just really unattractive. ooh, I mean just really unattractive. And I again, I I mentioned the dynamic And I again, I I mentioned the dynamic And I again, I I mentioned the dynamic with with Keller. He talks about the with with Keller. He talks about the with with Keller. He talks about the relationship between institutions and relationship between institutions and relationship between institutions and movements. Both necessary, both have movements. Both necessary, both have movements. Both necessary, both have their strengths and weaknesses. Um their strengths and weaknesses. Um their strengths and weaknesses. Um yeah, how exactly do we go about doing yeah, how exactly do we go about doing yeah, how exactly do we go about doing this when we are people who are this when we are people who are this when we are people who are representing institutions as leaders? representing institutions as leaders? representing institutions as leaders? >> Man, I mean first of all, just to >> Man, I mean first of all, just to >> Man, I mean first of all, just to validate just how unpopular that idea validate just how unpopular that idea validate just how unpopular that idea is. I I mean that is why at every stage is. I I mean that is why at every stage is. I I mean that is why at every stage of this entire process I was shocked of this entire process I was shocked of this entire process I was shocked continually continually continually um when the doors kept opening and I you um when the doors kept opening and I you um when the doors kept opening and I you know, when I got the email from know, when I got the email from know, when I got the email from Christianity Today that it was being Christianity Today that it was being Christianity Today that it was being named book of the year, I I literally named book of the year, I I literally named book of the year, I I literally checked to see if this was came from a checked to see if this was came from a checked to see if this was came from a Nigerian prince, right?

Nigerian prince, right? Nigerian prince, right? >> Or a cruel friend. >> Or a cruel friend. >> Or a cruel friend. >> Yeah, yeah. Or or like, you know, I'm >> Yeah, yeah. Or or like, you know, I'm >> Yeah, yeah. Or or like, you know, I'm like, I don't you know, it's a weird like, I don't you know, it's a weird like, I don't you know, it's a weird scam to try and, you know, uh get money scam to try and, you know, uh get money scam to try and, you know, uh get money out of a pastor and an author. out of a pastor and an author. out of a pastor and an author. Um I'm not sure like what the Um I'm not sure like what the Um I'm not sure like what the cost-benefit is for you on that, but cost-benefit is for you on that, but cost-benefit is for you on that, but sure. Um so yeah, no, I I would I wrote sure. Um so yeah, no, I I would I wrote sure. Um so yeah, no, I I would I wrote the book that I like, I need to process the book that I like, I need to process the book that I like, I need to process the the struggles that I've been the the struggles that I've been the the struggles that I've been encountering and the challenges I've encountering and the challenges I've encountering and the challenges I've been encountering in planting a church been encountering in planting a church been encountering in planting a church in Boulder County. And um I've been in Boulder County. And um I've been in Boulder County. And um I've been thrilled that it's actually resonated thrilled that it's actually resonated thrilled that it's actually resonated with people. And and I think the reason with people. And and I think the reason with people. And and I think the reason why it's resonating is why it's resonating is why it's resonating is um um um I think we're exhausted. I think we're exhausted. I think we're exhausted. And and and to your point about revival And and and to your point about revival And and and to your point about revival um chasing, I I've been using the um chasing, I I've been using the um chasing, I I've been using the language lately of like our our call language lately of like our our call language lately of like our our call right now is not to chase revival, it's right now is not to chase revival, it's right now is not to chase revival, it's to build a remnant. Um because I don't to build a remnant. Um because I don't to build a remnant. Um because I don't think that we have hit rock bottom in think that we have hit rock bottom in think that we have hit rock bottom in terms of like the levels of exhaustion terms of like the levels of exhaustion terms of like the levels of exhaustion society and frustration and society and frustration and society and frustration and disenchantment, but I can't see the disenchantment, but I can't see the disenchantment, but I can't see the trajectory we're on like pulling out trajectory we're on like pulling out trajectory we're on like pulling out without getting to a point where like we without getting to a point where like we without getting to a point where like we actually get desperate enough to maybe actually get desperate enough to maybe actually get desperate enough to maybe be open to church again. And so I think be open to church again. And so I think be open to church again. And so I think to answer your question like how do we to answer your question like how do we to answer your question like how do we do this? I think it's it's it's do this? I think it's it's it's do this? I think it's it's it's especially having a long view.

especially having a long view. especially having a long view. Um and Um and Um and and building the a spiritual greenhouse and building the a spiritual greenhouse and building the a spiritual greenhouse in an environment that's not hospitable in an environment that's not hospitable in an environment that's not hospitable to human growth and what it means to be to human growth and what it means to be to human growth and what it means to be human human human in ways that once that in that in ways that once that in that in ways that once that in that hostile environment is finally hostile environment is finally hostile environment is finally recognized as like being incompatible recognized as like being incompatible recognized as like being incompatible with our flourishing, we might actually with our flourishing, we might actually with our flourishing, we might actually start looking for greenhouses again and start looking for greenhouses again and start looking for greenhouses again and be open to it. And I think we're seeing be open to it. And I think we're seeing be open to it. And I think we're seeing a little bit of that with with Gen Z a little bit of that with with Gen Z a little bit of that with with Gen Z like who who've like they they it's the like who who've like they they it's the like who who've like they they it's the they're the first generation to have no they're the first generation to have no they're the first generation to have no memory of or experience of growing up in memory of or experience of growing up in memory of or experience of growing up in an institution as a as a norm. And so an institution as a as a norm. And so an institution as a as a norm. And so they don't have the same baggage that they don't have the same baggage that they don't have the same baggage that you know millennials and especially Gen you know millennials and especially Gen you know millennials and especially Gen X, I'm a zennial so I'm I'm kind of X, I'm a zennial so I'm I'm kind of X, I'm a zennial so I'm I'm kind of including myself in that criticism. including myself in that criticism. including myself in that criticism. Um Um Um I don't think they have the same baggage I don't think they have the same baggage I don't think they have the same baggage and I so I think there's a real and I so I think there's a real and I so I think there's a real opportunity there, but I think it means opportunity there, but I think it means opportunity there, but I think it means especially just having a long especially just having a long especially just having a long intergenerational multi-generational intergenerational multi-generational intergenerational multi-generational view and and and goal for this. You mean view and and and goal for this. You mean view and and and goal for this. You mean to tell me Brad that AI will not be the to tell me Brad that AI will not be the to tell me Brad that AI will not be the means of us being able to now that all means of us being able to now that all means of us being able to now that all the work's been done by computers to the work's been done by computers to the work's been done by computers to relax, relax, relax, to kick back, to enjoy each other's to kick back, to enjoy each other's to kick back, to enjoy each other's company, to pursue leisure, we can all company, to pursue leisure, we can all company, to pursue leisure, we can all move to Boulder so we could just enjoy move to Boulder so we could just enjoy move to Boulder so we could just enjoy the great outdoors. You mean to tell me the great outdoors. You mean to tell me the great outdoors. You mean to tell me that it's actually going to result in a that it's actually going to result in a that it's actually going to result in a much more frenetic pace for everybody much more frenetic pace for everybody much more frenetic pace for everybody and people will be working harder to try and people will be working harder to try and people will be working harder to try to meet ever-increasing productivity to meet ever-increasing productivity to meet ever-increasing productivity goals. Is that what you're telling me?

goals. Is that what you're telling me? goals. Is that what you're telling me? >> I mean, I know it's crazy because every >> I mean, I know it's crazy because every >> I mean, I know it's crazy because every other, you know, technological other, you know, technological other, you know, technological innovation has been you has delivered on innovation has been you has delivered on innovation has been you has delivered on that promise. that promise. that promise. Uh you know, between the printing press Uh you know, between the printing press Uh you know, between the printing press and the uh you know, Al Gore's internet, and the uh you know, Al Gore's internet, and the uh you know, Al Gore's internet, um I I'm um I I'm um I I'm I I I Yeah, I I my our our biggest challenge Yeah, I I my our our biggest challenge Yeah, I I my our our biggest challenge at the table to spiritual formation at the table to spiritual formation at the table to spiritual formation is schedules. is schedules. is schedules. The the additional convenience and the The the additional convenience and the The the additional convenience and the efficiency that it promises efficiency that it promises efficiency that it promises does not result with that. It means that does not result with that. It means that does not result with that. It means that we are we we are we are we we are we are we we are we think that we can operate as as more we think that we can operate as as more we think that we can operate as as more than than human, than than human, than than human, but it reduces our humanity. but it reduces our humanity. but it reduces our humanity. But and the goal is actually being fully But and the goal is actually being fully But and the goal is actually being fully human, not subhuman, not superhuman. human, not subhuman, not superhuman. human, not subhuman, not superhuman. We've got to be fully human. We actually We've got to be fully human. We actually We've got to be fully human. We actually have to have like recover an an have to have like recover an an have to have like recover an an anthropology for that. anthropology for that. anthropology for that. Um and technology is is is actively uh Um and technology is is is actively uh Um and technology is is is actively uh misaligned for that. misaligned for that. misaligned for that. >> It's almost like if AI did deliver all >> It's almost like if AI did deliver all >> It's almost like if AI did deliver all sorts of new time, all sorts of new sorts of new time, all sorts of new sorts of new time, all sorts of new opportunities, opportunities, opportunities, that other businesses would know this that other businesses would know this that other businesses would know this and they would start to market us with and they would start to market us with and they would start to market us with all the other things that we are needing all the other things that we are needing all the other things that we are needing to do to be able to fill that time and to do to be able to fill that time and to do to be able to fill that time and it also strikes me that in the great it also strikes me that in the great it also strikes me that in the great technological leap forward for say technological leap forward for say technological leap forward for say domestic work after the Second World domestic work after the Second World domestic work after the Second World War, War, War, it led to a certain rise of another wave it led to a certain rise of another wave it led to a certain rise of another wave of feminism as a response to the of feminism as a response to the of feminism as a response to the perceived and real malaise.

perceived and real malaise. perceived and real malaise. Um so, regardless of how you see it, Um so, regardless of how you see it, Um so, regardless of how you see it, technological change coming, rarely does technological change coming, rarely does technological change coming, rarely does it result, whether it's in increased it result, whether it's in increased it result, whether it's in increased productivity expectations or increased productivity expectations or increased productivity expectations or increased leisure and then endless marketing um or leisure and then endless marketing um or leisure and then endless marketing um or then endless marketing of therapeutic uh then endless marketing of therapeutic uh then endless marketing of therapeutic uh means of of dealing or coping with that, means of of dealing or coping with that, means of of dealing or coping with that, it's almost like it it leads to certain it's almost like it it leads to certain it's almost like it it leads to certain disruptions that increase the anxieties disruptions that increase the anxieties disruptions that increase the anxieties that when you do not have an institution that when you do not have an institution that when you do not have an institution or history, and ultimately a God who is or history, and ultimately a God who is or history, and ultimately a God who is grounding you through that, with a grounding you through that, with a grounding you through that, with a remnant, remnant, remnant, it's it's it's impossible, hard if not impossible to be impossible, hard if not impossible to be impossible, hard if not impossible to be able to manage. able to manage. able to manage. Um let's talk about individualism. Um Um let's talk about individualism. Um Um let's talk about individualism. Um what kind of individualism is good? And what kind of individualism is good? And what kind of individualism is good? And what kind is bad? what kind is bad? what kind is bad? >> Yeah, so I I make the distinction >> Yeah, so I I make the distinction >> Yeah, so I I make the distinction between individualism and individuality, between individualism and individuality, between individualism and individuality, right? Because I I I argue and I think right? Because I I I argue and I think right? Because I I I argue and I think Tom Holland's book Dominion is just a Tom Holland's book Dominion is just a Tom Holland's book Dominion is just a gold mine for gold mine for gold mine for I mean, that's basically what the entire I mean, that's basically what the entire I mean, that's basically what the entire book is about in a lot of ways. It's the book is about in a lot of ways. It's the book is about in a lot of ways. It's the way that the Western value of the way that the Western value of the way that the Western value of the individual is inherently rooted in the individual is inherently rooted in the individual is inherently rooted in the Christian understanding of the imago Dei Christian understanding of the imago Dei Christian understanding of the imago Dei and have having a a personal and and have having a a personal and and have having a a personal and individual relationship with God in in individual relationship with God in in individual relationship with God in in through the church. And that is a really through the church. And that is a really through the church. And that is a really good thing, right? It gave us the the good thing, right? It gave us the the good thing, right? It gave us the the civil rights era, it gave us all kinds civil rights era, it gave us all kinds civil rights era, it gave us all kinds of good things in this country, and it of good things in this country, and it of good things in this country, and it was it it's we all we can trace back our was it it's we all we can trace back our was it it's we all we can trace back our genealogy back to that. What genealogy back to that. What genealogy back to that. What individualism is is the way that

individualism is is the way that individualism is is the way that individuality has become unmoored from individuality has become unmoored from individuality has become unmoored from institutions institutions institutions and the roots cut from that vertical and the roots cut from that vertical and the roots cut from that vertical anchor in in Christ that you were just anchor in in Christ that you were just anchor in in Christ that you were just describing. So, maybe maybe it's a good describing. So, maybe maybe it's a good describing. So, maybe maybe it's a good way of thinking about it is a kind of an way of thinking about it is a kind of an way of thinking about it is a kind of an a Christian individuality that's that's a Christian individuality that's that's a Christian individuality that's that's metastasized or become a malignant metastasized or become a malignant metastasized or become a malignant kind of cellular reproduction. kind of cellular reproduction. kind of cellular reproduction. And it it it brings with it some moral And it it it brings with it some moral And it it it brings with it some moral claims about like what is a person um claims about like what is a person um claims about like what is a person um and how does how does one find or or and how does how does one find or or and how does how does one find or or have or experience significance, have or experience significance, have or experience significance, meaning, and purpose in life? And meaning, and purpose in life? And meaning, and purpose in life? And individuality doesn't really answer that individuality doesn't really answer that individuality doesn't really answer that question. It just says that the question. It just says that the question. It just says that the individual is good and it it should have individual is good and it it should have individual is good and it it should have the opportunity to pursue do things, but the opportunity to pursue do things, but the opportunity to pursue do things, but individualism says that those must be individualism says that those must be individualism says that those must be individually achieved rather than individually achieved rather than individually achieved rather than received from anything outside of you. received from anything outside of you. received from anything outside of you. And that's that's straight out of Robert And that's that's straight out of Robert And that's that's straight out of Robert Bella's Habits of the Heart, um which, Bella's Habits of the Heart, um which, Bella's Habits of the Heart, um which, you know, you know, you know, not coincidentally was uh I I first not coincidentally was uh I I first not coincidentally was uh I I first heard about that book when it was heard about that book when it was heard about that book when it was recommended by Tim Keller when I was recommended by Tim Keller when I was recommended by Tim Keller when I was doing the Redeemer City to City Church doing the Redeemer City to City Church doing the Redeemer City to City Church Planter Intensive. And and I'm so glad Planter Intensive. And and I'm so glad Planter Intensive. And and I'm so glad he did because that that that he did because that that that he did because that that that fundamental shift is fundamental shift is fundamental shift is is upstream of so much of of what ails is upstream of so much of of what ails is upstream of so much of of what ails us.

us. us. >> And helps to explain not only the rise >> And helps to explain not only the rise >> And helps to explain not only the rise of things like social media, but also of things like social media, but also of things like social media, but also that social media did not create all of that social media did not create all of that social media did not create all of these challenges out of nowhere. It's these challenges out of nowhere. It's these challenges out of nowhere. It's why you again, that's in the 1980s. Uh why you again, that's in the 1980s. Uh why you again, that's in the 1980s. Uh so, there's there's something and so, there's there's something and so, there's there's something and of course, every layer you peel back, of course, every layer you peel back, of course, every layer you peel back, you can go back to Oh, that's a very you can go back to Oh, that's a very you can go back to Oh, that's a very American concept. It goes back to the American concept. It goes back to the American concept. It goes back to the 19th century or 18th century. And then 19th century or 18th century. And then 19th century or 18th century. And then you can keep going back to you can keep going back to you can keep going back to In a lot of ways though, Christianity In a lot of ways though, Christianity In a lot of ways though, Christianity did create a space for individualism in did create a space for individualism in did create a space for individualism in a way that is wonderful and necessary a way that is wonderful and necessary a way that is wonderful and necessary and shaped the very sense of self that and shaped the very sense of self that and shaped the very sense of self that we have. So, yeah, the be able to we have. So, yeah, the be able to we have. So, yeah, the be able to differentiate between good and bad is differentiate between good and bad is differentiate between good and bad is necessary. Go ahead. necessary. Go ahead. necessary. Go ahead. >> Oh, no, I just I just say like I mean >> Oh, no, I just I just say like I mean >> Oh, no, I just I just say like I mean the conversation we're having right now the conversation we're having right now the conversation we're having right now is the same tension that sparks the is the same tension that sparks the is the same tension that sparks the Reformation in the first place. Reformation in the first place. Reformation in the first place. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Yeah, there you go. >> Is it Is it the uh you know, the >> Is it Is it the uh you know, the >> Is it Is it the uh you know, the unhealthy institutions and the abuse of unhealthy institutions and the abuse of unhealthy institutions and the abuse of priests that is the cause priests that is the cause priests that is the cause >> for the Reformation >> for the Reformation >> for the Reformation >> Oh, good point. >> Oh, good point. >> Oh, good point. >> Martin Luther, you know, >> Martin Luther, you know, >> Martin Luther, you know, bringing about the importance of not bringing about the importance of not bringing about the importance of not binding consciences beyond the word of binding consciences beyond the word of binding consciences beyond the word of God? Yes is the answer. Right? This is God? Yes is the answer. Right? This is God? Yes is the answer. Right? This is This is not, you know, there's nothing This is not, you know, there's nothing This is not, you know, there's nothing new under the sun, but his and history new under the sun, but his and history new under the sun, but his and history may not repeat, but it does rhyme. And may not repeat, but it does rhyme. And may not repeat, but it does rhyme. And there is a consistent through line here.

there is a consistent through line here. there is a consistent through line here. >> I love that point. I don't know why I >> I love that point. I don't know why I >> I love that point. I don't know why I didn't even think about that. Yeah, didn't even think about that. Yeah, didn't even think about that. Yeah, whenever you see, I mean, Michael Horton whenever you see, I mean, Michael Horton whenever you see, I mean, Michael Horton does a great job of this when people does a great job of this when people does a great job of this when people argue against Protestantism and say and argue against Protestantism and say and argue against Protestantism and say and blame it for every everything that ails blame it for every everything that ails blame it for every everything that ails modern life and especially individualism modern life and especially individualism modern life and especially individualism to understand where Catholics are coming to understand where Catholics are coming to understand where Catholics are coming from. On that, the response is always from. On that, the response is always from. On that, the response is always yeah, because the Council of Constance yeah, because the Council of Constance yeah, because the Council of Constance was just such an awesome thing. When was just such an awesome thing. When was just such an awesome thing. When they had to bring every prostitute from they had to bring every prostitute from they had to bring every prostitute from across across Europe to be able to be across across Europe to be able to be across across Europe to be able to be there for the priests and the bishops there for the priests and the bishops there for the priests and the bishops that clearly we had something really that clearly we had something really that clearly we had something really good going on good going on good going on >> back then. >> back then. >> back then. >> I mean, it you could make the argument >> I mean, it you could make the argument >> I mean, it you could make the argument it was the medieval Super Bowl. it was the medieval Super Bowl. it was the medieval Super Bowl. >> But >> But >> But >> That's where it was. It was the medieval >> That's where it was. It was the medieval >> That's where it was. It was the medieval Super Bowl. Super Bowl. Super Bowl. >> But you have a >> But you have a >> But you have a it's a it's a real it's a real tension it's a it's a real it's a real tension it's a it's a real it's a real tension of uh individualism. It brings many good of uh individualism. It brings many good of uh individualism. It brings many good things. It brings many bad things. It's things. It brings many bad things. It's things. It brings many bad things. It's like any number of different like any number of different like any number of different technological developments. The technological developments. The technological developments. The Reformation did unleash all sorts of Reformation did unleash all sorts of Reformation did unleash all sorts of radical things. It also did bring about radical things. It also did bring about radical things. It also did bring about true and genuine reform and also true and genuine reform and also true and genuine reform and also alterations from the Catholic Church.

alterations from the Catholic Church. alterations from the Catholic Church. Also criticizing the church was Also criticizing the church was Also criticizing the church was something that was necessary to hold something that was necessary to hold something that was necessary to hold church leaders accountable. Also, it church leaders accountable. Also, it church leaders accountable. Also, it became the basis for if we're going to became the basis for if we're going to became the basis for if we're going to argue against the priests, why not the argue against the priests, why not the argue against the priests, why not the whole thing? Let's argue against whole thing? Let's argue against whole thing? Let's argue against Christianity altogether. So, it also Christianity altogether. So, it also Christianity altogether. So, it also gives rise to what we see with the gives rise to what we see with the gives rise to what we see with the Enlightenment and broader skepticism. Enlightenment and broader skepticism. Enlightenment and broader skepticism. So, So, So, I just think these dynamics are a lot I just think these dynamics are a lot I just think these dynamics are a lot more interesting when you handle them more interesting when you handle them more interesting when you handle them with the appropriate tensions with the appropriate tensions with the appropriate tensions within the gray as opposed to treating within the gray as opposed to treating within the gray as opposed to treating all of them as black and white and all of them as black and white and all of them as black and white and that's why when you see something like that's why when you see something like that's why when you see something like the individualism, you have to say, are the individualism, you have to say, are the individualism, you have to say, are we talking about the good kind? Are we we talking about the good kind? Are we we talking about the good kind? Are we talking about the bad kind? Because talking about the bad kind? Because talking about the bad kind? Because they're both there. You wouldn't want to they're both there. You wouldn't want to they're both there. You wouldn't want to go back to a world with no go back to a world with no go back to a world with no individualism. individualism. individualism. >> I >> I >> I yeah, I mean, like you yeah, I mean, like you yeah, I mean, like you it it goes back even further than the it it goes back even further than the it it goes back even further than the Reformation, right? It goes back to the Reformation, right? It goes back to the Reformation, right? It goes back to the fall fall fall >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> when Adam and Eve said, we're going to >> when Adam and Eve said, we're going to >> when Adam and Eve said, we're going to function as our own authority and then function as our own authority and then function as our own authority and then we see that played out in the Tower of we see that played out in the Tower of we see that played out in the Tower of Babel when the motive isn't just like we Babel when the motive isn't just like we Babel when the motive isn't just like we want to reach the the you know, tower want to reach the the you know, tower want to reach the the you know, tower that reaches the heavens. The motive that reaches the heavens. The motive that reaches the heavens. The motive that's given in Genesis 11 is so that we that's given in Genesis 11 is so that we that's given in Genesis 11 is so that we can make a name for ourselves. So, we can make a name for ourselves. So, we can make a name for ourselves. So, we can achieve our own identity and can achieve our own identity and can achieve our own identity and significance and meaning purpose and not significance and meaning purpose and not significance and meaning purpose and not need God. So need God. So need God. So I we're always going to struggle with I we're always going to struggle with I we're always going to struggle with this tension.

this tension. this tension. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. All right. Well, so I got some more All right. Well, so I got some more All right. Well, so I got some more questions here with with Brad Edwards questions here with with Brad Edwards questions here with with Brad Edwards talking about the reason for church talking about the reason for church talking about the reason for church published by Zondervan reflective published by Zondervan reflective published by Zondervan reflective wonderful publisher. All right. So wonderful publisher. All right. So wonderful publisher. All right. So should unity Brad should unity Brad should unity Brad be the goal of a church? be the goal of a church? be the goal of a church? I think when we talk as institutional I think when we talk as institutional I think when we talk as institutional leaders and especially as pastors and leaders and especially as pastors and leaders and especially as pastors and elders, our answer is clearly yes. elders, our answer is clearly yes. elders, our answer is clearly yes. However, However, However, how many good and necessary causes have how many good and necessary causes have how many good and necessary causes have been thwarted been thwarted been thwarted by church leaders or church members for by church leaders or church members for by church leaders or church members for that matter that matter that matter who say, "No, no, no, that would cause who say, "No, no, no, that would cause who say, "No, no, no, that would cause disunity in the church." So, should disunity in the church." So, should disunity in the church." So, should unity be the goal of a church? unity be the goal of a church? unity be the goal of a church? >> Certainly not the goal. It should be a >> Certainly not the goal. It should be a >> Certainly not the goal. It should be a fruit of the church. It should be the fruit of the church. It should be the fruit of the church. It should be the fruit of of faithfulness in a church fruit of of faithfulness in a church fruit of of faithfulness in a church living out the greatest commandment to living out the greatest commandment to living out the greatest commandment to love the Lord your God with all your love the Lord your God with all your love the Lord your God with all your heart mind and strength and the other heart mind and strength and the other heart mind and strength and the other side of that coin being the loving of side of that coin being the loving of side of that coin being the loving of neighbor of yourself. And I think that neighbor of yourself. And I think that neighbor of yourself. And I think that if a church is about that, then yeah, if a church is about that, then yeah, if a church is about that, then yeah, unity is going to be downstream of that.

unity is going to be downstream of that. unity is going to be downstream of that. But yeah, when you when you But yeah, when you when you But yeah, when you when you when you when you make unity the point, when you when you make unity the point, when you when you make unity the point, conformity becomes a temptation. Um and conformity becomes a temptation. Um and conformity becomes a temptation. Um and and you know, it's just so good that and you know, it's just so good that and you know, it's just so good that social media has just freed us of that social media has just freed us of that social media has just freed us of that because we don't really we we don't because we don't really we we don't because we don't really we we don't really enforce conformity on social really enforce conformity on social really enforce conformity on social media at all. Um and and I I I think media at all. Um and and I I I think media at all. Um and and I I I think that's part of the problem here is right that's part of the problem here is right that's part of the problem here is right is is that we we have these blind spots is is that we we have these blind spots is is that we we have these blind spots where like, "Oh, no, it's okay in this where like, "Oh, no, it's okay in this where like, "Oh, no, it's okay in this area, but no, not in the church because area, but no, not in the church because area, but no, not in the church because I don't have the same in power that I I don't have the same in power that I I don't have the same in power that I have in a church that I do on social have in a church that I do on social have in a church that I do on social media." And so there's a there's a whole media." And so there's a there's a whole media." And so there's a there's a whole lot of there's a whole lot going on lot of there's a whole lot going on lot of there's a whole lot going on there. there. there. Um but but yeah, I mean Um but but yeah, I mean Um but but yeah, I mean unity is is unity is is unity is is is a fruit. It's not even a means to an is a fruit. It's not even a means to an is a fruit. It's not even a means to an end and I don't think it's the end end and I don't think it's the end end and I don't think it's the end either. It's it's it's I think it's either. It's it's it's I think it's either. It's it's it's I think it's secondary. secondary. secondary. Um and it's important to pay attention Um and it's important to pay attention Um and it's important to pay attention to. It's important to uh you know, it to to. It's important to uh you know, it to to. It's important to uh you know, it to be a goal in the sense that like pastors be a goal in the sense that like pastors be a goal in the sense that like pastors should be working to bring people along should be working to bring people along should be working to bring people along and people who are in their congregation and people who are in their congregation and people who are in their congregation should be should be should be uh you know, not just you know, uh you know, not just you know, uh you know, not just you know, swallowing whatever questions or doubts swallowing whatever questions or doubts swallowing whatever questions or doubts or concerns they have but there should or concerns they have but there should or concerns they have but there should be trust there. Like part of the reason be trust there. Like part of the reason be trust there. Like part of the reason I think that the the unity conversation I think that the the unity conversation I think that the the unity conversation is so fraught is because we're we're is so fraught is because we're we're is so fraught is because we're we're trying to talk about it without talking trying to talk about it without talking trying to talk about it without talking about the importance of trust.

about the importance of trust. about the importance of trust. And and and the way that uh culturally And and and the way that uh culturally And and and the way that uh culturally speaking our default is that we have speaking our default is that we have speaking our default is that we have exchanged uh power for trust as the exchanged uh power for trust as the exchanged uh power for trust as the currency for relationship. And when that currency for relationship. And when that currency for relationship. And when that is the case, unity becomes impossible. is the case, unity becomes impossible. is the case, unity becomes impossible. But when pastors But when pastors But when pastors um um um make that same mistake, then conformity make that same mistake, then conformity make that same mistake, then conformity becomes a temptation. becomes a temptation. becomes a temptation. >> To paraphrase from a wise man, you aim >> To paraphrase from a wise man, you aim >> To paraphrase from a wise man, you aim for happiness and you will not get it. for happiness and you will not get it. for happiness and you will not get it. You aim for Christ and you might just You aim for Christ and you might just You aim for Christ and you might just get happiness thrown in. get happiness thrown in. get happiness thrown in. Aim for unity and you will not get it. Aim for unity and you will not get it. Aim for unity and you will not get it. Aim for the gospel and you just might Aim for the gospel and you just might Aim for the gospel and you just might get unity thrown in. get unity thrown in. get unity thrown in. >> Well, I mean if you read Paul, to be in >> Well, I mean if you read Paul, to be in >> Well, I mean if you read Paul, to be in Christ is to be spiritually unified as Christ is to be spiritually unified as Christ is to be spiritually unified as the starting point. And so even then the the starting point. And so even then the the starting point. And so even then the conversation's got to be like, okay, conversation's got to be like, okay, conversation's got to be like, okay, well, how do we well, how do we well, how do we What is the unity that we have already? What is the unity that we have already? What is the unity that we have already? And not make it something that we we act And not make it something that we we act And not make it something that we we act like we don't have and it's on the like we don't have and it's on the like we don't have and it's on the responsibility on our shoulders because responsibility on our shoulders because responsibility on our shoulders because God is sovereign. He's involved in this God is sovereign. He's involved in this God is sovereign. He's involved in this and he's he's promised that in the Great and he's he's promised that in the Great and he's he's promised that in the Great Commission. Commission. Commission. >> Yeah, good point. >> Yeah, good point. >> Yeah, good point. Uh Uh Uh Brad, what has surprised you the most Brad, what has surprised you the most Brad, what has surprised you the most since you became a pastor?

since you became a pastor? since you became a pastor? >> Well, wow. >> Well, wow. >> Well, wow. Shh. Shh. Shh. Um Um Um There's so many answers to choose from. There's so many answers to choose from. There's so many answers to choose from. I mean, I I I think I mean, I I I think I mean, I I I think uh the the part of what sparked writing uh the the part of what sparked writing uh the the part of what sparked writing this book in the first place was the the this book in the first place was the the this book in the first place was the the the the shock and surprise that I spent, the the shock and surprise that I spent, the the shock and surprise that I spent, you know, my whole time in seminary. I you know, my whole time in seminary. I you know, my whole time in seminary. I mean, the book The Reason for Church is mean, the book The Reason for Church is mean, the book The Reason for Church is an the title is an intentional homage to an the title is an intentional homage to an the title is an intentional homage to Tim Keller's The Reason for God. And I Tim Keller's The Reason for God. And I Tim Keller's The Reason for God. And I very much expected that like me coming very much expected that like me coming very much expected that like me coming to faith toward the end of college and to faith toward the end of college and to faith toward the end of college and having no experience in church, I my my having no experience in church, I my my having no experience in church, I my my objection was to God more than the objection was to God more than the objection was to God more than the church. And so I kind of had similar church. And so I kind of had similar church. And so I kind of had similar expectations that that would be the expectations that that would be the expectations that that would be the biggest objection to biggest objection to biggest objection to to the Christian faith. to the Christian faith. to the Christian faith. But But But planting in Colorado, I realized and was planting in Colorado, I realized and was planting in Colorado, I realized and was pleasantly surprised that many of my pleasantly surprised that many of my pleasantly surprised that many of my neighbors are actually really open to neighbors are actually really open to neighbors are actually really open to talking about God and and even to the talking about God and and even to the talking about God and and even to the idea that like okay, yeah, I might need idea that like okay, yeah, I might need idea that like okay, yeah, I might need a loving God's grace and and a and and a loving God's grace and and a and and a loving God's grace and and a and and some kind of a relationship with him, some kind of a relationship with him, some kind of a relationship with him, right?

right? right? But I was not prepared for nor did I But I was not prepared for nor did I But I was not prepared for nor did I even have an answer to the objection even have an answer to the objection even have an answer to the objection that yeah, but I don't need the church that yeah, but I don't need the church that yeah, but I don't need the church and that's that's a completely and that's that's a completely and that's that's a completely irrelevant if not harmful reality. And irrelevant if not harmful reality. And irrelevant if not harmful reality. And so I think so I think so I think the premise for the book is is probably the premise for the book is is probably the premise for the book is is probably the most surprising thing over the the most surprising thing over the the most surprising thing over the especially the last 10 years of especially the last 10 years of especially the last 10 years of planting. planting. planting. >> Well, >> Well, >> Well, another question. You're on the ground, another question. You're on the ground, another question. You're on the ground, we've already established this, in a we've already established this, in a we've already established this, in a state that's changed a lot in 20 years. state that's changed a lot in 20 years. state that's changed a lot in 20 years. So, So, So, what's next? what's next? what's next? >> Oh, what what's coming down the pipe >> Oh, what what's coming down the pipe >> Oh, what what's coming down the pipe kind of so to speak? kind of so to speak? kind of so to speak? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Man, I gosh, you're going to open up a >> Man, I gosh, you're going to open up a >> Man, I gosh, you're going to open up a whole can of worms to my galaxy brain. whole can of worms to my galaxy brain. whole can of worms to my galaxy brain. Um I Um I Um I I mean, I I like many people and I'm I mean, I I like many people and I'm I mean, I I like many people and I'm pretty consumed with the um the pretty consumed with the um the pretty consumed with the um the tradeoffs and the the the technological tradeoffs and the the the technological tradeoffs and the the the technological catalyst that is AI. catalyst that is AI. catalyst that is AI. Um already I wrote in the article that Um already I wrote in the article that Um already I wrote in the article that um was was paired with the the um was was paired with the the um was was paired with the the announcement in the latest issue that um announcement in the latest issue that um announcement in the latest issue that um in our table students, our our youth in our table students, our our youth in our table students, our our youth ministry, ministry, ministry, uh there was somebody who in our church uh there was somebody who in our church uh there was somebody who in our church works for Google and you know, in a way works for Google and you know, in a way works for Google and you know, in a way that was not actually going to like it that was not actually going to like it that was not actually going to like it the conversation was not supposed to be the conversation was not supposed to be the conversation was not supposed to be about AI. He just asked very simply like about AI. He just asked very simply like about AI. He just asked very simply like when you have a question that you don't when you have a question that you don't when you have a question that you don't think that your parents or even your think that your parents or even your think that your parents or even your pastor pastor pastor know the answer to, where do you go? And know the answer to, where do you go? And know the answer to, where do you go? And a a a not a a a not a a a not insignificant number of them said, "Oh, insignificant number of them said, "Oh, insignificant number of them said, "Oh, chat GPT."

chat GPT." chat GPT." And we're talking about like raging, you And we're talking about like raging, you And we're talking about like raging, you know, middle school, like 6th grade all know, middle school, like 6th grade all know, middle school, like 6th grade all the way up through 12th grade, but most the way up through 12th grade, but most the way up through 12th grade, but most of them in middle school also. And I of them in middle school also. And I of them in middle school also. And I think just whether that is actually think just whether that is actually think just whether that is actually true, like that's what they actually do, true, like that's what they actually do, true, like that's what they actually do, or that's just what all their peers are or that's just what all their peers are or that's just what all their peers are saying, that communicates to me saying, that communicates to me saying, that communicates to me a a a a a a value and an eagerness for this to a a a value and an eagerness for this to a a a value and an eagerness for this to continue to develop and become more continue to develop and become more continue to develop and become more ubiquitous in ways that I'm just not ubiquitous in ways that I'm just not ubiquitous in ways that I'm just not sure that we're prepared for yet. Um sure that we're prepared for yet. Um sure that we're prepared for yet. Um because I I, because I I, because I I, you know, let me put it this way. Um you know, let me put it this way. Um you know, let me put it this way. Um I haven't written about this anywhere I haven't written about this anywhere I haven't written about this anywhere yet, so yet, so yet, so this is a bit of a hot take, but, you this is a bit of a hot take, but, you this is a bit of a hot take, but, you know, Tristan Harris said that says that know, Tristan Harris said that says that know, Tristan Harris said that says that there's a, you know, every time we see there's a, you know, every time we see there's a, you know, every time we see the invention of a new novel technology, the invention of a new novel technology, the invention of a new novel technology, what that does is it surfaces a resource what that does is it surfaces a resource what that does is it surfaces a resource that we didn't know was a resource that we didn't know was a resource that we didn't know was a resource before, and then commodifies it. Right? before, and then commodifies it. Right? before, and then commodifies it. Right? So, So, So, the clock, you know, the clock, you know, the clock, you know, the resource was time. You know, when the resource was time. You know, when the resource was time. You know, when you scheduled meetings, you weren't you you scheduled meetings, you weren't you you scheduled meetings, you weren't you didn't have a specific time. It was like didn't have a specific time. It was like didn't have a specific time. It was like midday, and you'd have to wait around midday, and you'd have to wait around midday, and you'd have to wait around for that person to show up, maybe as for that person to show up, maybe as for that person to show up, maybe as long as an hour or two, right?

long as an hour or two, right? long as an hour or two, right? We just didn't have efficiency, but when We just didn't have efficiency, but when We just didn't have efficiency, but when we were able to measure time, that we were able to measure time, that we were able to measure time, that created the value of efficiency. created the value of efficiency. created the value of efficiency. Social media, right? We have Social media, right? We have Social media, right? We have >> Attention. >> Attention. >> Attention. >> Attention, exactly. That wasn't even >> Attention, exactly. That wasn't even >> Attention, exactly. That wasn't even really in our vocabulary, and now it is really in our vocabulary, and now it is really in our vocabulary, and now it is the basis of profit for the vast the basis of profit for the vast the basis of profit for the vast majority of our GDP. majority of our GDP. majority of our GDP. That's wild, right? That's wild, right? That's wild, right? AI, I think the resource that it's going AI, I think the resource that it's going AI, I think the resource that it's going to commodify is agency. to commodify is agency. to commodify is agency. And I think that agency is going to be And I think that agency is going to be And I think that agency is going to be the thing that we are is both marketed the thing that we are is both marketed the thing that we are is both marketed to us, like this is the promise that to us, like this is the promise that to us, like this is the promise that it's going to give you, but it's also it's going to give you, but it's also it's going to give you, but it's also going to rob us of something of that, going to rob us of something of that, going to rob us of something of that, because there's something about the you because there's something about the you because there's something about the you know, I I know as an author you know, I I know as an author you know, I I know as an author you understand this. Like the thing that understand this. Like the thing that understand this. Like the thing that terrifies me about using chat GPT is um terrifies me about using chat GPT is um terrifies me about using chat GPT is um is is how easy it is to to go to that is is how easy it is to to go to that is is how easy it is to to go to that rather than face the tyranny of the rather than face the tyranny of the rather than face the tyranny of the blank page. blank page. blank page. Right? That part of the the the creative Right? That part of the the the creative Right? That part of the the the creative process of like I don't even know what process of like I don't even know what process of like I don't even know what I'm going to say. I don't even know I'm going to say. I don't even know I'm going to say. I don't even know where to start. Like if chat GPT does where to start. Like if chat GPT does where to start. Like if chat GPT does that for us, I think that there's a that for us, I think that there's a that for us, I think that there's a muscle somewhere inside us that is going muscle somewhere inside us that is going muscle somewhere inside us that is going to atrophy. And if that is the case for, to atrophy. And if that is the case for, to atrophy. And if that is the case for, you know, just writing or or content you know, just writing or or content you know, just writing or or content um um um take that same principle and apply it to take that same principle and apply it to take that same principle and apply it to all these other areas of life that it's all these other areas of life that it's all these other areas of life that it's promising to give you greater superhuman promising to give you greater superhuman promising to give you greater superhuman agency for and and how might what are agency for and and how might what are agency for and and how might what are the tradeoffs that might make you the tradeoffs that might make you the tradeoffs that might make you subhuman in that rather than fully subhuman in that rather than fully subhuman in that rather than fully human?

human? human? That's the the the bit I think that's That's the the the bit I think that's That's the the the bit I think that's the big the big the big the the the unexplored landscape that we the the the unexplored landscape that we the the the unexplored landscape that we we're looking at. we're looking at. we're looking at. >> Let me give you another reason for >> Let me give you another reason for >> Let me give you another reason for church. church. church. Uh a reason for church Uh a reason for church Uh a reason for church is that you is that you is that you might just show up to a Sunday school might just show up to a Sunday school might just show up to a Sunday school class class class and have a discussion about Hartmut and have a discussion about Hartmut and have a discussion about Hartmut Rosa's the uncontrollability of the Rosa's the uncontrollability of the Rosa's the uncontrollability of the world in the context of digital world in the context of digital world in the context of digital technology technology technology with a sense for how AI as it with a sense for how AI as it with a sense for how AI as it commodifies agency commodifies agency commodifies agency will be something that exacerbates that will be something that exacerbates that will be something that exacerbates that existing sense that we must dominate existing sense that we must dominate existing sense that we must dominate everything in our sphere by expanding everything in our sphere by expanding everything in our sphere by expanding what we control what we control what we control as opposed to living a world of as opposed to living a world of as opposed to living a world of resonance with the things around us, the resonance with the things around us, the resonance with the things around us, the natural world, other human beings, um natural world, other human beings, um natural world, other human beings, um res- receiving the world as something res- receiving the world as something res- receiving the world as something from God as opposed to the world as from God as opposed to the world as from God as opposed to the world as something that we must we have a something that we must we have a something that we must we have a compulsion to dominate.

compulsion to dominate. compulsion to dominate. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> So, that was our Sunday school class. >> So, that was our Sunday school class. >> So, that was our Sunday school class. >> Oh my gosh. I I can't Did you record >> Oh my gosh. I I can't Did you record >> Oh my gosh. I I can't Did you record that? Can I have it? that? Can I have it? that? Can I have it? I mean I'd not thought about that I mean I'd not thought about that I mean I'd not thought about that before. AI as agency. before. AI as agency. before. AI as agency. >> But immediately, I went back to a quote >> But immediately, I went back to a quote >> But immediately, I went back to a quote that I had again from him that I use in that I had again from him that I use in that I had again from him that I use in my cultural apologetics class about my cultural apologetics class about my cultural apologetics class about the the the especially American impulse that we have especially American impulse that we have especially American impulse that we have to conquer everything. to conquer everything. to conquer everything. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> We must control everything. I was >> We must control everything. I was >> We must control everything. I was applying it to gambling. So, the reason applying it to gambling. So, the reason applying it to gambling. So, the reason it came up is because we were just it came up is because we were just it came up is because we were just having a discussion. These are mostly having a discussion. These are mostly having a discussion. These are mostly young people, mostly Gen Z in this young people, mostly Gen Z in this young people, mostly Gen Z in this group. A lot of Gen Z in my church, group. A lot of Gen Z in my church, group. A lot of Gen Z in my church, probably the biggest age cohort or they probably the biggest age cohort or they probably the biggest age cohort or they were millennials. were millennials. were millennials. And one of the guys next to me, younger And one of the guys next to me, younger And one of the guys next to me, younger guy, was talking about uh gambling. And guy, was talking about uh gambling. And guy, was talking about uh gambling. And I had been mentioning Rosa's discussion I had been mentioning Rosa's discussion I had been mentioning Rosa's discussion of sports as a really good example of of sports as a really good example of of sports as a really good example of resonance. A positive thing where you resonance. A positive thing where you resonance. A positive thing where you cannot control Use a soccer, obviously, cannot control Use a soccer, obviously, cannot control Use a soccer, obviously, he's German. So, he used soccer as an he's German. So, he used soccer as an he's German. So, he used soccer as an example. He said, "If you could control example. He said, "If you could control example. He said, "If you could control that, all the interest would go away." that, all the interest would go away." that, all the interest would go away." I realized, "But we do try to control it I realized, "But we do try to control it I realized, "But we do try to control it through gambling."

through gambling." through gambling." That's how we control it. That's how we That's how we control it. That's how we That's how we control it. That's how we get rid of the resonance and we control get rid of the resonance and we control get rid of the resonance and we control it. And then I made the broader point it. And then I made the broader point it. And then I made the broader point about how, you know, the the the about how, you know, the the the about how, you know, the the the categorical imperative of modern life in categorical imperative of modern life in categorical imperative of modern life in the modern West is you must dominate the modern West is you must dominate the modern West is you must dominate everything. Well, if AI is agency, as everything. Well, if AI is agency, as everything. Well, if AI is agency, as you're arguing, then you're arguing, then you're arguing, then that will only serve to advance the that will only serve to advance the that will only serve to advance the categorical imperative of modernity. categorical imperative of modernity. categorical imperative of modernity. >> Well, and I mean I mean another word for >> Well, and I mean I mean another word for >> Well, and I mean I mean another word for agency is power, agency is power, agency is power, too. Like I mean I mean it's too. Like I mean I mean it's too. Like I mean I mean it's interesting, you know, when you when you interesting, you know, when you when you interesting, you know, when you when you started that with talking about Sunday started that with talking about Sunday started that with talking about Sunday school. My My first, like where my head school. My My first, like where my head school. My My first, like where my head went immediately was, "Oh, yeah. went immediately was, "Oh, yeah. went immediately was, "Oh, yeah. Children Sunday school." Like if I have Children Sunday school." Like if I have Children Sunday school." Like if I have to if I'm showing up, I'm like I like I to if I'm showing up, I'm like I like I to if I'm showing up, I'm like I like I can't I became a Christian as an adult. can't I became a Christian as an adult. can't I became a Christian as an adult. So, like I'm So, like I'm So, like I'm I am very much learning at the expense I am very much learning at the expense I am very much learning at the expense of my kids like what what means to of my kids like what what means to of my kids like what what means to disciple young people, right? And so, I disciple young people, right? And so, I disciple young people, right? And so, I I never was on the receiving end of I never was on the receiving end of I never was on the receiving end of that. I don't have those resources to that. I don't have those resources to that. I don't have those resources to draw on draw on draw on uh and like things to riff off of. But, uh and like things to riff off of. But, uh and like things to riff off of. But, going into a children's ministry, you going into a children's ministry, you going into a children's ministry, you know, know, know, a children's Sunday school and, you a children's Sunday school and, you a children's Sunday school and, you know, if you feel like unconfident like know, if you feel like unconfident like know, if you feel like unconfident like I would and anxious, I'm like, "God, I I would and anxious, I'm like, "God, I I would and anxious, I'm like, "God, I want to do right by this. I want to You want to do right by this. I want to You want to do right by this. I want to You know, I want to help these kids." If I'm know, I want to help these kids." If I'm know, I want to help these kids." If I'm using AI in some way to either replace using AI in some way to either replace using AI in some way to either replace me or to to supplement or like leaning me or to to supplement or like leaning me or to to supplement or like leaning on AI more than I'm leaning on God and on AI more than I'm leaning on God and on AI more than I'm leaning on God and prayer, who gets the credit when it goes prayer, who gets the credit when it goes prayer, who gets the credit when it goes well?

well? well? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And and and I'm robbing myself of an >> And and and I'm robbing myself of an >> And and and I'm robbing myself of an experience of God showing up in the experience of God showing up in the experience of God showing up in the midst of that and not just like giving midst of that and not just like giving midst of that and not just like giving me the right words to say, but actually me the right words to say, but actually me the right words to say, but actually affecting the change in children's affecting the change in children's affecting the change in children's hearts when I don't have the right hearts when I don't have the right hearts when I don't have the right words. That's a words. That's a words. That's a that that could that could very easily that that could that could very easily that that could that could very easily be a trade-off in a very just just a be a trade-off in a very just just a be a trade-off in a very just just a very practical concrete way. very practical concrete way. very practical concrete way. Never mind the economic and, you know, Never mind the economic and, you know, Never mind the economic and, you know, disruption that is it's it's likely to disruption that is it's it's likely to disruption that is it's it's likely to cause. cause. cause. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Had a conversation just this morning. Had a conversation just this morning. Had a conversation just this morning. Talked to somebody who teaches Talked to somebody who teaches Talked to somebody who teaches uh uh uh video game design. video game design. video game design. And I was asking about AI and AI's been And I was asking about AI and AI's been And I was asking about AI and AI's been going for a long time in video game going for a long time in video game going for a long time in video game design. design. design. And he said that students object to him And he said that students object to him And he said that students object to him when he marks them off saying, when he marks them off saying, when he marks them off saying, "It wasn't me who did this. It was AI. "It wasn't me who did this. It was AI. "It wasn't me who did this. It was AI. So, you can't mark me down So, you can't mark me down So, you can't mark me down for this." That's a whole new That's a whole new I That's a whole new AI does the work.

I That's a whole new AI does the work. I That's a whole new AI does the work. >> Woah. >> Woah. >> Woah. >> I have no problem with AI doing the >> I have no problem with AI doing the >> I have no problem with AI doing the work, but you can't mark me off for work, but you can't mark me off for work, but you can't mark me off for anything because AI did it. anything because AI did it. anything because AI did it. It was the computer. It was the computer. It was the computer. >> I mean, credit and blame are two >> I mean, credit and blame are two >> I mean, credit and blame are two different ways of saying the same thing. different ways of saying the same thing. different ways of saying the same thing. So, yeah, like who gets the credit and So, yeah, like who gets the credit and So, yeah, like who gets the credit and the blame? Oh, man. Yeah, with agency the blame? Oh, man. Yeah, with agency the blame? Oh, man. Yeah, with agency goes responsibility. goes responsibility. goes responsibility. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But, the whole point of whose work is >> But, the whole point of whose work is >> But, the whole point of whose work is this? this? this? Another professor tells me that he Another professor tells me that he Another professor tells me that he confronted a student and said, confronted a student and said, confronted a student and said, "I I can't I can't award you points for "I I can't I can't award you points for "I I can't I can't award you points for this paper. It's clearly written by AI." this paper. It's clearly written by AI." this paper. It's clearly written by AI." And the student says, And the student says, And the student says, "What's the problem with that? I wrote "What's the problem with that? I wrote "What's the problem with that? I wrote the prompts. the prompts. the prompts. If I wrote the prompts, that means I If I wrote the prompts, that means I If I wrote the prompts, that means I wrote the essay." wrote the essay." wrote the essay." Said, "No, that's not how it works." And Said, "No, that's not how it works." And Said, "No, that's not how it works." And this student was incomprehending. this student was incomprehending. this student was incomprehending. It made no sense at all. How could this It made no sense at all. How could this It made no sense at all. How could this be? be? be? So, I think you just really hit the nail So, I think you just really hit the nail So, I think you just really hit the nail on the head. We're in for a lot of on the head. We're in for a lot of on the head. We're in for a lot of confusion about agency.

confusion about agency. confusion about agency. And then I take a step back to a remnant And then I take a step back to a remnant And then I take a step back to a remnant mentality. mentality. mentality. Because what does Because what does Because what does what is the resonance response to this what is the resonance response to this what is the resonance response to this sense that we have to exercise our sense that we have to exercise our sense that we have to exercise our agency to achieve power and control agency to achieve power and control agency to achieve power and control everything? everything? everything? Well, the response is, as a remnant, Well, the response is, as a remnant, Well, the response is, as a remnant, you are constrained to pursue the things you are constrained to pursue the things you are constrained to pursue the things that are under your proximate control. that are under your proximate control. that are under your proximate control. To serve your family, to serve your To serve your family, to serve your To serve your family, to serve your church, to serve your community. church, to serve your community. church, to serve your community. And you are not And you are not And you are not anxious with this anxious with this anxious with this ever-present sense that you must be ever-present sense that you must be ever-present sense that you must be dominating. You must be dominating. You must be dominating. You must be productivity maxing or body maxing or productivity maxing or body maxing or productivity maxing or body maxing or whatever else that is out there. We whatever else that is out there. We whatever else that is out there. We often think of younger people as often think of younger people as often think of younger people as slackers. slackers. slackers. I sense that that's the opposite going I sense that that's the opposite going I sense that that's the opposite going to be the case. They're going to be AI to be the case. They're going to be AI to be the case. They're going to be AI maxers and then using what other time to maxers and then using what other time to maxers and then using what other time to body max or whatever else, body max or whatever else, body max or whatever else, you know, we want to look at there. Um you know, we want to look at there. Um you know, we want to look at there. Um so, it's likely you're not I'm going to so, it's likely you're not I'm going to so, it's likely you're not I'm going to be looking at younger generations be looking at younger generations be looking at younger generations thinking, thinking, thinking, "Boy, why won't they just get off their, "Boy, why won't they just get off their, "Boy, why won't they just get off their, you know, bottoms and do something?" But you know, bottoms and do something?" But you know, bottoms and do something?" But more like, more like, more like, "Oh, wow, they're setting expectations "Oh, wow, they're setting expectations "Oh, wow, they're setting expectations here of of accelerating here of of accelerating here of of accelerating just achievement that exacerbated by AI just achievement that exacerbated by AI just achievement that exacerbated by AI the rest of us can hardly even the rest of us can hardly even the rest of us can hardly even comprehend.

comprehend. comprehend. >> I mean >> I mean >> I mean look at we see the same polarization as look at we see the same polarization as look at we see the same polarization as around attention as a result of social around attention as a result of social around attention as a result of social media, right? You have like the media, right? You have like the media, right? You have like the attention becomes a pursuit of of of its attention becomes a pursuit of of of its attention becomes a pursuit of of of its own as a good of its own. It's not a own as a good of its own. It's not a own as a good of its own. It's not a means to an end. It becomes the the end means to an end. It becomes the the end means to an end. It becomes the the end itself, right? And there is this amazing itself, right? And there is this amazing itself, right? And there is this amazing article. I'm just totally spacing on the article. I'm just totally spacing on the article. I'm just totally spacing on the title or the author, but it was in title or the author, but it was in title or the author, but it was in Harper's Magazine recently where the the Harper's Magazine recently where the the Harper's Magazine recently where the the the the writer went to Silicon Valley the the writer went to Silicon Valley the the writer went to Silicon Valley and interviewed some of these especially and interviewed some of these especially and interviewed some of these especially really young um founders of AI companies really young um founders of AI companies really young um founders of AI companies and one of the observations he had was and one of the observations he had was and one of the observations he had was that these these, you know, early that these these, you know, early that these these, you know, early 20-somethings who skipped college and 20-somethings who skipped college and 20-somethings who skipped college and went straight into uh you know, starting went straight into uh you know, starting went straight into uh you know, starting uh a tech company. uh a tech company. uh a tech company. When they asked them a question about When they asked them a question about When they asked them a question about like, "So what comes after this? What is like, "So what comes after this? What is like, "So what comes after this? What is the meaning and the purpose that you are the meaning and the purpose that you are the meaning and the purpose that you are like what what is what will starting like what what is what will starting like what what is what will starting this company enable you to do? How is this company enable you to do? How is this company enable you to do? How is this company a means to an end?" And the this company a means to an end?" And the this company a means to an end?" And the answers he got were shockingly answers he got were shockingly answers he got were shockingly um either um either um either "I don't understand the question."

"I don't understand the question." "I don't understand the question." Or like, "I don't know, but I know I can Or like, "I don't know, but I know I can Or like, "I don't know, but I know I can make $3 million a year, so it doesn't make $3 million a year, so it doesn't make $3 million a year, so it doesn't matter." And that was like one of the matter." And that was like one of the matter." And that was like one of the lines there, one of the responses. Which lines there, one of the responses. Which lines there, one of the responses. Which is is is which is really sad because it makes which is really sad because it makes which is really sad because it makes agency a pursuit on its own. And they agency a pursuit on its own. And they agency a pursuit on its own. And they even use that language. And so these are even use that language. And so these are even use that language. And so these are the people who are designing the AI and the people who are designing the AI and the people who are designing the AI and and and that worldview shapes the and and that worldview shapes the and and that worldview shapes the digital liturgy that we all use. So I I digital liturgy that we all use. So I I digital liturgy that we all use. So I I you're connecting a whole lot of dots you're connecting a whole lot of dots you're connecting a whole lot of dots for me on this. I mean, Alan Noble's, for me on this. I mean, Alan Noble's, for me on this. I mean, Alan Noble's, you know, uh in the you know, uh in the you know, uh in the uh podcast that I co-host with John uh podcast that I co-host with John uh podcast that I co-host with John Homans, Post Everything, he we Homans, Post Everything, he we Homans, Post Everything, he we interviewed Alan Noble and and he was interviewed Alan Noble and and he was interviewed Alan Noble and and he was talking about how talking about how talking about how this this is really going to reshape the this this is really going to reshape the this this is really going to reshape the entire educational system. But I I think entire educational system. But I I think entire educational system. But I I think that there's something that there's something that there's something uh uh uh there can be a good winnowing if if there can be a good winnowing if if there can be a good winnowing if if educational institutions actually educational institutions actually educational institutions actually recover the formative purpose and not recover the formative purpose and not recover the formative purpose and not just divulging of information and just divulging of information and just divulging of information and helping you get a good paying job after helping you get a good paying job after helping you get a good paying job after college, but like forming better humans college, but like forming better humans college, but like forming better humans and more virtuous people.

and more virtuous people. and more virtuous people. >> Yeah. Not just output or >> Yeah. Not just output or >> Yeah. Not just output or achievement-focused, but formation achievement-focused, but formation achievement-focused, but formation and full character approaches. and full character approaches. and full character approaches. Um Um Um I knew we'd have a sprawling I knew we'd have a sprawling I knew we'd have a sprawling conversation, but like I said in the in conversation, but like I said in the in conversation, but like I said in the in the introduction here, the introduction here, the introduction here, what we're talking about is not just a what we're talking about is not just a what we're talking about is not just a book, good as it is, that's able to say, book, good as it is, that's able to say, book, good as it is, that's able to say, "Hey, church is really important. This "Hey, church is really important. This "Hey, church is really important. This what the Bible says about this. This is what the Bible says about this. This is what the Bible says about this. This is the theological reflection from the the theological reflection from the the theological reflection from the church." But being able to bring that church." But being able to bring that church." But being able to bring that conversation conversation conversation into the context of kind of the the into the context of kind of the the into the context of kind of the the current the modern situation. Um that's current the modern situation. Um that's current the modern situation. Um that's something that like you said a a something that like you said a a something that like you said a a cultural apologetic for the institution cultural apologetic for the institution cultural apologetic for the institution of of the church. And that's a of of the church. And that's a of of the church. And that's a recognition that the church has not recognition that the church has not recognition that the church has not always gotten things right. Yet the always gotten things right. Yet the always gotten things right. Yet the church by God's grace persists, and the church by God's grace persists, and the church by God's grace persists, and the church is a remnant and a refuge in an church is a remnant and a refuge in an church is a remnant and a refuge in an ever-changing world that in some ways by ever-changing world that in some ways by ever-changing world that in some ways by not going with all of the other cultural not going with all of the other cultural not going with all of the other cultural changes, precisely is able to continue changes, precisely is able to continue changes, precisely is able to continue to maintain its witness with integrity to maintain its witness with integrity to maintain its witness with integrity in keeping with the church's biblical in keeping with the church's biblical in keeping with the church's biblical and biblical and biblical and biblical uh mandate there.

uh mandate there. uh mandate there. So, let's close this out, Brad. Um So, let's close this out, Brad. Um So, let's close this out, Brad. Um again, we've been talking with Brad again, we've been talking with Brad again, we've been talking with Brad Edwards about the reason for church Edwards about the reason for church Edwards about the reason for church um from Zondervan Reflective. Again, um from Zondervan Reflective. Again, um from Zondervan Reflective. Again, widely claimed wonderful book. Let's widely claimed wonderful book. Let's widely claimed wonderful book. Let's just end on this. What would pastors just end on this. What would pastors just end on this. What would pastors want their congregations to know most want their congregations to know most want their congregations to know most about church or about their church? about church or about their church? about church or about their church? >> I would say two things. >> I would say two things. >> I would say two things. I think I think I think I I I I think I can speak for pastors I I I I think I can speak for pastors I I I I think I can speak for pastors when I say that we carry into the pulpit when I say that we carry into the pulpit when I say that we carry into the pulpit a a a a a a a high awareness that in many ways we a high awareness that in many ways we a high awareness that in many ways we are heard when we are exhorting people are heard when we are exhorting people are heard when we are exhorting people to to to um obligate themselves to the church um obligate themselves to the church um obligate themselves to the church that that that there is a perception that that is a there is a perception that that is a there is a perception that that is a self-serving thing for a pastor to say. self-serving thing for a pastor to say. self-serving thing for a pastor to say. And I think I would want everybody to And I think I would want everybody to And I think I would want everybody to hear hear hear uh is that uh is that uh is that that might be the case sometimes, but we that might be the case sometimes, but we that might be the case sometimes, but we can't throw the baby out with the can't throw the baby out with the can't throw the baby out with the bathwater. And that actually obligating bathwater. And that actually obligating bathwater. And that actually obligating yourself to the to the body of Christ is yourself to the to the body of Christ is yourself to the to the body of Christ is the only way that we can fully the only way that we can fully the only way that we can fully experience the the the the blessings of experience the the the the blessings of experience the the the the blessings of Christ. And and where we get the means Christ. And and where we get the means Christ. And and where we get the means of grace, that's the only place we find of grace, that's the only place we find of grace, that's the only place we find the word and sacrament and prayer in the the word and sacrament and prayer in the the word and sacrament and prayer in the ways that scripture is is setting forth ways that scripture is is setting forth ways that scripture is is setting forth as like we need this.

as like we need this. as like we need this. And so And so And so try to hear your pastor with some try to hear your pastor with some try to hear your pastor with some charitable assumptions, I guess. charitable assumptions, I guess. charitable assumptions, I guess. Um but also I I would want to say that Um but also I I would want to say that Um but also I I would want to say that that if that is true and if God and if that if that is true and if God and if that if that is true and if God and if Jesus in the Great Commission says that Jesus in the Great Commission says that Jesus in the Great Commission says that like, you know, all authority in heaven like, you know, all authority in heaven like, you know, all authority in heaven and earth has been given to me and earth has been given to me and earth has been given to me and I am with you to the end of the age, and I am with you to the end of the age, and I am with you to the end of the age, that this is the book ended This is the that this is the book ended This is the that this is the book ended This is the book ends of of the Great Commission. book ends of of the Great Commission. book ends of of the Great Commission. That that means That that means That that means that God is going to be working in you that God is going to be working in you that God is going to be working in you when you are in your church, even if you when you are in your church, even if you when you are in your church, even if you are not aware of it, you don't are not aware of it, you don't are not aware of it, you don't experience it, or maybe you experience experience it, or maybe you experience experience it, or maybe you experience it, but it kind of sucks sometimes. Like it, but it kind of sucks sometimes. Like it, but it kind of sucks sometimes. Like it's just not as satisfying as you it's just not as satisfying as you it's just not as satisfying as you thought it would be and it didn't match thought it would be and it didn't match thought it would be and it didn't match your expectations. And that's I just your expectations. And that's I just your expectations. And that's I just want you to I want people to hear that's want you to I want people to hear that's want you to I want people to hear that's okay because there are things going on okay because there are things going on okay because there are things going on that there's a spiritual reality that we that there's a spiritual reality that we that there's a spiritual reality that we don't see, but we get a taste a little don't see, but we get a taste a little don't see, but we get a taste a little bit of it in the thin place that is the bit of it in the thin place that is the bit of it in the thin place that is the the the corporate worship of the people the the corporate worship of the people the the corporate worship of the people of God. And that is that is a gift and of God. And that is that is a gift and of God. And that is that is a gift and it doesn't require your pastor to be it doesn't require your pastor to be it doesn't require your pastor to be just incredible or amazing or whatever.

just incredible or amazing or whatever. just incredible or amazing or whatever. It's going to happen because God it's It's going to happen because God it's It's going to happen because God it's his body and his bride and he loves it his body and his bride and he loves it his body and his bride and he loves it too much not to to be faithful to his too much not to to be faithful to his too much not to to be faithful to his promises and that includes the local promises and that includes the local promises and that includes the local institutional church and and yeah, it's institutional church and and yeah, it's institutional church and and yeah, it's it's it's God's broken but beloved it's it's God's broken but beloved it's it's God's broken but beloved people. people. people. Both. Both. Both. >> Amen. I love that. That's great. Even >> Amen. I love that. That's great. Even >> Amen. I love that. That's great. Even when you don't subjectively feel as when you don't subjectively feel as when you don't subjectively feel as though something good is happening, though something good is happening, though something good is happening, objectively we're normed, we're told, objectively we're normed, we're told, objectively we're normed, we're told, we're reminded that God is doing a we're reminded that God is doing a we're reminded that God is doing a mighty work. And that's one of the most mighty work. And that's one of the most mighty work. And that's one of the most important things about institutions in important things about institutions in important things about institutions in general general general is the faithful, consistent showing up is the faithful, consistent showing up is the faithful, consistent showing up that changes people. Showing up and that changes people. Showing up and that changes people. Showing up and serving serving serving is how how people how people change is how how people how people change is how how people how people change those habits. those habits. those habits. Um give my guest on Gospel Bound this Um give my guest on Gospel Bound this Um give my guest on Gospel Bound this week, Brett Edwards. The Reason for week, Brett Edwards. The Reason for week, Brett Edwards. The Reason for Church is the book. Sovereign Grace Church is the book. Sovereign Grace Church is the book. Sovereign Grace Reflective is the publisher. Brett, Reflective is the publisher. Brett, Reflective is the publisher. Brett, thanks for joining me. Thanks for thanks for joining me. Thanks for thanks for joining me. Thanks for writing this book. writing this book. writing this book. >> Thanks so much. This is a blast. Thank >> Thanks so much. This is a blast. Thank >> Thanks so much. This is a blast. Thank you.

>> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.