The Exciting Christian Life of John C. Lennox

If you haven't got a world view that has If you haven't got a world view that has something to say to those in pain or something to say to those in pain or something to say to those in pain or suffering, you haven't got a world view suffering, you haven't got a world view suffering, you haven't got a world view that's that's worthy of the name. So, that's that's worthy of the name. So, that's that's worthy of the name. So, that's an important thing. And what I've that's an important thing. And what I've that's an important thing. And what I've noticed over the years noticed over the years noticed over the years that the aggression of the new atheists that the aggression of the new atheists that the aggression of the new atheists has a faded away. has a faded away. has a faded away. And the attacks tend to come more or the And the attacks tend to come more or the And the attacks tend to come more or the questions tend to come more on issues of questions tend to come more on issues of questions tend to come more on issues of meaning and ethics and morality. What is meaning and ethics and morality. What is meaning and ethics and morality. What is a human being? What does my life mean? a human being? What does my life mean? a human being? What does my life mean? Can I really have a purpose? Can I really have a purpose? Can I really have a purpose? >> Welcome to the Book Drop. >> Welcome to the Book Drop. >> Welcome to the Book Drop. My name is Andrew Spencer, associate My name is Andrew Spencer, associate My name is Andrew Spencer, associate editor for books at The Gospel editor for books at The Gospel editor for books at The Gospel Coalition. Coalition. Coalition. I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. I had the privilege of interviewing Dr. John Lennox about his new book, My John Lennox about his new book, My John Lennox about his new book, My Story, a spiritual and intellectual Story, a spiritual and intellectual Story, a spiritual and intellectual autobiography. autobiography. autobiography. Lennox is a emeritus professor of Lennox is a emeritus professor of Lennox is a emeritus professor of mathematics at the University of Oxford. mathematics at the University of Oxford. mathematics at the University of Oxford. He's well-known for his debates with new He's well-known for his debates with new He's well-known for his debates with new atheists like Richard Dawkins, atheists like Richard Dawkins, atheists like Richard Dawkins, Christopher Hitchens, and Peter Singer.

Christopher Hitchens, and Peter Singer. Christopher Hitchens, and Peter Singer. He's written a number of books including He's written a number of books including He's written a number of books including a book on artificial intelligence, books a book on artificial intelligence, books a book on artificial intelligence, books on the doctrine of vocation, and books on the doctrine of vocation, and books on the doctrine of vocation, and books that help us defend the Christian faith. that help us defend the Christian faith. that help us defend the Christian faith. I first heard Dr. Lennox in 2007 when he I first heard Dr. Lennox in 2007 when he I first heard Dr. Lennox in 2007 when he came to Southeastern Baptist Theological came to Southeastern Baptist Theological came to Southeastern Baptist Theological Seminary on his way to University of Seminary on his way to University of Seminary on his way to University of Alabama, Birmingham, where he was going Alabama, Birmingham, where he was going Alabama, Birmingham, where he was going to debate Richard Dawkins. You can find to debate Richard Dawkins. You can find to debate Richard Dawkins. You can find many of those debates online on YouTube many of those debates online on YouTube many of those debates online on YouTube to this day. What Lennox said in the to this day. What Lennox said in the to this day. What Lennox said in the lecture that he gave has helped me lecture that he gave has helped me lecture that he gave has helped me understand my Christianity better in the understand my Christianity better in the understand my Christianity better in the last 20 years. last 20 years. last 20 years. This book, his new autobiography, is an This book, his new autobiography, is an This book, his new autobiography, is an exciting story where he tells about exciting story where he tells about exciting story where he tells about going behind the Iron Curtain during the going behind the Iron Curtain during the going behind the Iron Curtain during the Cold War, taking the gospel into places Cold War, taking the gospel into places Cold War, taking the gospel into places like Hungary, into East Germany, and like Hungary, into East Germany, and like Hungary, into East Germany, and eventually once the Berlin Wall fell, eventually once the Berlin Wall fell, eventually once the Berlin Wall fell, into Russia itself, where there was a into Russia itself, where there was a into Russia itself, where there was a deep hunger for the gospel of Jesus deep hunger for the gospel of Jesus deep hunger for the gospel of Jesus Christ. Christ. Christ. We hear about the way that God worked in We hear about the way that God worked in We hear about the way that God worked in providing unique circumstances and providing unique circumstances and providing unique circumstances and opportunities where he was able to learn opportunities where he was able to learn opportunities where he was able to learn languages, where he was able to cross languages, where he was able to cross languages, where he was able to cross boundaries, and through it all, we hear boundaries, and through it all, we hear boundaries, and through it all, we hear the story of God working through his the story of God working through his the story of God working through his people to get his gospel where it's people to get his gospel where it's people to get his gospel where it's needed most.

needed most. needed most. It's an exciting story at 450 pages of It's an exciting story at 450 pages of It's an exciting story at 450 pages of narrative. I looked forward to it, and narrative. I looked forward to it, and narrative. I looked forward to it, and I'm delighted to share this discussion I'm delighted to share this discussion I'm delighted to share this discussion with you. with you. with you. As I read your book, one of the things As I read your book, one of the things As I read your book, one of the things that struck me is that throughout your that struck me is that throughout your that struck me is that throughout your kind of academic professional career and kind of academic professional career and kind of academic professional career and your ministry career, you have done a your ministry career, you have done a your ministry career, you have done a lot of things at a high level, whether lot of things at a high level, whether lot of things at a high level, whether it's mathematics or philosophy of it's mathematics or philosophy of it's mathematics or philosophy of science or in some of the apologetic science or in some of the apologetic science or in some of the apologetic work that you've done. work that you've done. work that you've done. Um what were some formative aspects of Um what were some formative aspects of Um what were some formative aspects of your childhood that shaped your your childhood that shaped your your childhood that shaped your character so that [clears throat] you character so that [clears throat] you character so that [clears throat] you you um you um you um you became the person who you were? you became the person who you were? you became the person who you were? >> The first formative >> The first formative >> The first formative and probably the most important is the and probably the most important is the and probably the most important is the environment in which I grew up. The environment in which I grew up. The environment in which I grew up. The atmosphere in Northern Ireland when I atmosphere in Northern Ireland when I atmosphere in Northern Ireland when I was growing up was not very pleasant. It was growing up was not very pleasant. It was growing up was not very pleasant. It was quite sectarian, was quite sectarian, was quite sectarian, very partisan and bigoted, but my very partisan and bigoted, but my very partisan and bigoted, but my parents were parents were parents were very keen Christians, but they were not very keen Christians, but they were not very keen Christians, but they were not sectarian.

sectarian. sectarian. And secondly, they loved me enough And secondly, they loved me enough And secondly, they loved me enough >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> to >> to >> to encourage me and and show me what encourage me and and show me what encourage me and and show me what Christianity meant without forcing it Christianity meant without forcing it Christianity meant without forcing it down my throat, which is very unusual down my throat, which is very unusual down my throat, which is very unusual because many of my contemporaries in because many of my contemporaries in because many of my contemporaries in that country when they left home, that country when they left home, that country when they left home, any notion of faith in God disappeared any notion of faith in God disappeared any notion of faith in God disappeared overnight because it had simply been overnight because it had simply been overnight because it had simply been forced on them, but my parents weren't forced on them, but my parents weren't forced on them, but my parents weren't like that. like that. like that. And in particular, my father And in particular, my father And in particular, my father was not was not was not highly educated, but he loved scripture, highly educated, but he loved scripture, highly educated, but he loved scripture, and he knew quite a lot about scripture, and he knew quite a lot about scripture, and he knew quite a lot about scripture, and he knew enough to and he knew enough to and he knew enough to put me on a path of seeing that put me on a path of seeing that put me on a path of seeing that scripture was tremendously interesting, scripture was tremendously interesting, scripture was tremendously interesting, first of all, because he used it to first of all, because he used it to first of all, because he used it to introduce me to ancient history, introduce me to ancient history, introduce me to ancient history, to the whole history of Israel, and so to the whole history of Israel, and so to the whole history of Israel, and so on, and to thinking theologically. on, and to thinking theologically. on, and to thinking theologically. And he put in my way books by And he put in my way books by And he put in my way books by famous Christians like F.F. Bruce and so famous Christians like F.F. Bruce and so famous Christians like F.F. Bruce and so on.

on. on. And I read them and loved them even as a And I read them and loved them even as a And I read them and loved them even as a teenager. teenager. teenager. And so I grew up with the idea that And so I grew up with the idea that And so I grew up with the idea that Christianity was Christianity was Christianity was very very very intellectually intellectually intellectually wise and sensible, and it was a wise and sensible, and it was a wise and sensible, and it was a worldview that I rapidly became worldview that I rapidly became worldview that I rapidly became convinced convinced convinced was [snorts] true. was [snorts] true. was [snorts] true. And that has been a foundation stone. And that has been a foundation stone. And that has been a foundation stone. Not that it was helpful, but that it was Not that it was helpful, but that it was Not that it was helpful, but that it was true. true. true. And very early on I came to believe that And very early on I came to believe that And very early on I came to believe that Jesus Jesus Jesus was the son of God, and I trusted him. was the son of God, and I trusted him. was the son of God, and I trusted him. And so I had a very good foundation. And so I had a very good foundation. And so I had a very good foundation. And indeed, I read many books given to And indeed, I read many books given to And indeed, I read many books given to me by my father long before I went to me by my father long before I went to me by my father long before I went to university. university. university. And that was a tremendous preparation And that was a tremendous preparation And that was a tremendous preparation for it. So, I owe my parents a great for it. So, I owe my parents a great for it. So, I owe my parents a great deal in that sense, allowing me to deal in that sense, allowing me to deal in that sense, allowing me to develop. And develop. And develop. And another thing that's quite important. My another thing that's quite important. My another thing that's quite important. My father didn't only introduce me to the father didn't only introduce me to the father didn't only introduce me to the Christian worldview, he introduced me to Christian worldview, he introduced me to Christian worldview, he introduced me to other worldviews because he felt that I other worldviews because he felt that I other worldviews because he felt that I needed to know what other people think.

needed to know what other people think. needed to know what other people think. And I spent my life finding out what And I spent my life finding out what And I spent my life finding out what other people think, and other people think, and other people think, and running it past my Christian worldview. running it past my Christian worldview. running it past my Christian worldview. And that is what has strengthened my And that is what has strengthened my And that is what has strengthened my faith in Christ and God immeasurably. faith in Christ and God immeasurably. faith in Christ and God immeasurably. >> One of the things that struck me as I >> One of the things that struck me as I >> One of the things that struck me as I was reading your biography, especially was reading your biography, especially was reading your biography, especially the the graduate studies chapter, the the graduate studies chapter, the the graduate studies chapter, um is at the beginning of that you talk um is at the beginning of that you talk um is at the beginning of that you talk about how hard you were working both in about how hard you were working both in about how hard you were working both in your Christian ministry uh as you were your Christian ministry uh as you were your Christian ministry uh as you were serving churches around uh and also in serving churches around uh and also in serving churches around uh and also in math. You say in there that it's because math. You say in there that it's because math. You say in there that it's because you saw your vocation as as a uh you you saw your vocation as as a uh you you saw your vocation as as a uh you know, as a mathematician as also a know, as a mathematician as also a know, as a mathematician as also a service to God and you didn't see a service to God and you didn't see a service to God and you didn't see a distinction between sacred and secular. distinction between sacred and secular. distinction between sacred and secular. Um how how did that kind of viewpoint Um how how did that kind of viewpoint Um how how did that kind of viewpoint form for you form for you form for you uh and then how did it shape the rest of uh and then how did it shape the rest of uh and then how did it shape the rest of your ministry? your ministry? your ministry? >> Well, I think I came across very early >> Well, I think I came across very early >> Well, I think I came across very early on on on a concept that I began to see was not a concept that I began to see was not a concept that I began to see was not biblical. And that is the concept of biblical. And that is the concept of biblical. And that is the concept of full-time Christian work.

full-time Christian work. full-time Christian work. Because Because Because I read Paul I read Paul I read Paul in Philippians, whatever you do, in Philippians, whatever you do, >> [snorts] >> work as unto the Lord. >> work as unto the Lord. >> work as unto the Lord. And I was taught and it was very And I was taught and it was very And I was taught and it was very sensible teaching and I've recently sensible teaching and I've recently sensible teaching and I've recently written a book on it written a book on it written a book on it that we do all of our work uh for the that we do all of our work uh for the that we do all of our work uh for the Lord. And over the years, of course, Lord. And over the years, of course, Lord. And over the years, of course, almost every para-church organization almost every para-church organization almost every para-church organization has told me has told me has told me uh or invited me to say, you know, it's uh or invited me to say, you know, it's uh or invited me to say, you know, it's about time uh you went full-time. about time uh you went full-time. about time uh you went full-time. And I would reply by saying, you're too And I would reply by saying, you're too And I would reply by saying, you're too late. And they would say, well, it's late. And they would say, well, it's late. And they would say, well, it's never too late to go full-time. never too late to go full-time. never too late to go full-time. And I would say, you don't understand And I would say, you don't understand And I would say, you don't understand me. me. me. I I I live for the Lord as I understand it all live for the Lord as I understand it all live for the Lord as I understand it all of my time and part of that is of my time and part of that is of my time and part of that is doing my mathematics, being a husband, doing my mathematics, being a husband, doing my mathematics, being a husband, being a father, being a grandfather, being a father, being a grandfather, being a father, being a grandfather, etc., etc., Bible teaching, etc., etc., Bible teaching, etc., etc., Bible teaching, uh teaching maths, administrating. And uh teaching maths, administrating. And uh teaching maths, administrating. And they And they would normally say, oh, I they And they would normally say, oh, I they And they would normally say, oh, I didn't mean that. And I say, "Oh, yes, didn't mean that. And I say, "Oh, yes, didn't mean that. And I say, "Oh, yes, you did mean that. You've got a false you did mean that. You've got a false you did mean that. You've got a false concept of dividing between full-time concept of dividing between full-time concept of dividing between full-time Christian work, and there they elite Christian work, and there they elite Christian work, and there they elite people, I suppose, and those lesser people, I suppose, and those lesser people, I suppose, and those lesser people, the second-class Christians, pay people, the second-class Christians, pay people, the second-class Christians, pay for it. Is that what you mean?" And of for it. Is that what you mean?" And of for it. Is that what you mean?" And of course, that was very embarrassing to course, that was very embarrassing to course, that was very embarrassing to suggest that.

suggest that. suggest that. We need to get this straight because We need to get this straight because We need to get this straight because unfortunately unfortunately unfortunately it has led to a serious division. it has led to a serious division. it has led to a serious division. And it puts pressure on pastors And it puts pressure on pastors And it puts pressure on pastors who, because they're paid to do their who, because they're paid to do their who, because they're paid to do their job, they congregation often expects job, they congregation often expects job, they congregation often expects uh them to do it all and not give them uh them to do it all and not give them uh them to do it all and not give them any help, etc., etc. any help, etc., etc. any help, etc., etc. And I think we've lost the concept that And I think we've lost the concept that And I think we've lost the concept that Paul embodied, that the Lord embodied, Paul embodied, that the Lord embodied, Paul embodied, that the Lord embodied, that the other apostles embodied. And that the other apostles embodied. And that the other apostles embodied. And that is they were all trained to do that is they were all trained to do that is they were all trained to do jobs. Paul was a tent maker, which was a jobs. Paul was a tent maker, which was a jobs. Paul was a tent maker, which was a a a highly skilled job. And he used the a a highly skilled job. And he used the a a highly skilled job. And he used the funds to finance his missions. There funds to finance his missions. There funds to finance his missions. There weren't any churches to do that. And weren't any churches to do that. And weren't any churches to do that. And those two things sat those two things sat those two things sat very close with him. very close with him. very close with him. And I had a superb model And I had a superb model And I had a superb model in my mentor, who was an academic, a in my mentor, who was an academic, a in my mentor, who was an academic, a professor of Greek, and yet professor of Greek, and yet professor of Greek, and yet a a an absolutely brilliant Bible a a an absolutely brilliant Bible a a an absolutely brilliant Bible teacher and biblical scholar.

teacher and biblical scholar. teacher and biblical scholar. And I could see that it was possible in And I could see that it was possible in And I could see that it was possible in that sense to do more than one thing. that sense to do more than one thing. that sense to do more than one thing. And I fear that has been lost, so that And I fear that has been lost, so that And I fear that has been lost, so that many people who are gifted academically, many people who are gifted academically, many people who are gifted academically, uh they go to church, uh they go to church, uh they go to church, and in a sense, they pay the church to and in a sense, they pay the church to and in a sense, they pay the church to teach them. But they might have real teach them. But they might have real teach them. But they might have real gifts as Bible teachers themselves, but gifts as Bible teachers themselves, but gifts as Bible teachers themselves, but those gifts lie dormant. those gifts lie dormant. those gifts lie dormant. But I'm going off on a subject about But I'm going off on a subject about But I'm going off on a subject about which I've written a book, so I probably which I've written a book, so I probably which I've written a book, so I probably better leave it for that. The book, by better leave it for that. The book, by better leave it for that. The book, by the way, is called um A Good Return. the way, is called um A Good Return. the way, is called um A Good Return. Biblical principles of work, wealth, and Biblical principles of work, wealth, and Biblical principles of work, wealth, and wisdom, where I've set this out in great wisdom, where I've set this out in great wisdom, where I've set this out in great detail. And many people find it hugely detail. And many people find it hugely detail. And many people find it hugely encouraging because what it means on the encouraging because what it means on the encouraging because what it means on the positive side is positive side is positive side is that God is interested in all of our that God is interested in all of our that God is interested in all of our work, work, work, whether it's as a teacher or a miner or whether it's as a teacher or a miner or whether it's as a teacher or a miner or a business person or a doctor or a Bible a business person or a doctor or a Bible a business person or a doctor or a Bible teacher or a counselor.

teacher or a counselor. teacher or a counselor. God is interested in it all. And that God is interested in it all. And that God is interested in it all. And that means an enormous amount to me and many means an enormous amount to me and many means an enormous amount to me and many other people. other people. other people. >> As someone who grew up uh at the end of >> As someone who grew up uh at the end of >> As someone who grew up uh at the end of the Cold War, the Cold War, the Cold War, uh one of the more intriguing things for uh one of the more intriguing things for uh one of the more intriguing things for me is to hear or to read the stories me is to hear or to read the stories me is to hear or to read the stories about you going behind the Iron Curtain. about you going behind the Iron Curtain. about you going behind the Iron Curtain. How did you begin to have a ministry How did you begin to have a ministry How did you begin to have a ministry uh to those Eastern European countries? uh to those Eastern European countries? uh to those Eastern European countries? >> Well, one thing led to another. >> Well, one thing led to another. >> Well, one thing led to another. And when I was doing my doctorate in And when I was doing my doctorate in And when I was doing my doctorate in Cambridge, Cambridge, Cambridge, my research supervisor said to me my research supervisor said to me my research supervisor said to me that it was worth my while applying for that it was worth my while applying for that it was worth my while applying for a post-doctoral fellowship in Germany. a post-doctoral fellowship in Germany. a post-doctoral fellowship in Germany. There was a special foundation, the There was a special foundation, the There was a special foundation, the Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. Alexander von Humboldt Foundation. And it was worth applying for that And it was worth applying for that And it was worth applying for that because it gave you a year's research because it gave you a year's research because it gave you a year's research without any responsibility to teach without any responsibility to teach without any responsibility to teach or administer a department. or administer a department. or administer a department. And [snorts] And [snorts] And [snorts] so I went off to Germany and I got the so I went off to Germany and I got the so I went off to Germany and I got the language deliberately. I spent a lot of language deliberately. I spent a lot of language deliberately. I spent a lot of time learning German that year.

time learning German that year. time learning German that year. And [snorts] then And [snorts] then And [snorts] then during the year, I met in Berlin some during the year, I met in Berlin some during the year, I met in Berlin some Hungarian Christians. I'd never met Hungarian Christians. I'd never met Hungarian Christians. I'd never met Hungarians before, and they invited me Hungarians before, and they invited me Hungarians before, and they invited me to Budapest. to Budapest. to Budapest. And I eventually went, which is a long And I eventually went, which is a long And I eventually went, which is a long story and a very clear example to my story and a very clear example to my story and a very clear example to my mind of God intervening to direct me. mind of God intervening to direct me. mind of God intervening to direct me. And I discovered that in that country And I discovered that in that country And I discovered that in that country because of the Second World War, because of the Second World War, because of the Second World War, very few people spoke English, but very few people spoke English, but very few people spoke English, but some some some very [clears throat] able and gifted very [clears throat] able and gifted very [clears throat] able and gifted people spoke fluent German as I did by people spoke fluent German as I did by people spoke fluent German as I did by that time. So, that time. So, that time. So, I preached in German and they I preached in German and they I preached in German and they interpreted. And there was such a interpreted. And there was such a interpreted. And there was such a tremendous response in Hungary, people tremendous response in Hungary, people tremendous response in Hungary, people coming from everywhere. coming from everywhere. coming from everywhere. Apparently, they'd never heard this kind Apparently, they'd never heard this kind Apparently, they'd never heard this kind of systematic exposition of an entire of systematic exposition of an entire of systematic exposition of an entire book of scripture before. book of scripture before. book of scripture before. And And And then I met people in Hungary who were then I met people in Hungary who were then I met people in Hungary who were from the German Democratic Republic, from the German Democratic Republic, from the German Democratic Republic, which of course was which of course was which of course was very much more communistic than Hungary very much more communistic than Hungary very much more communistic than Hungary was even in the days of the of the Cold was even in the days of the of the Cold was even in the days of the of the Cold War. And that led to invitations to go War. And that led to invitations to go War. And that led to invitations to go to the GDR.

to the GDR. to the GDR. And of course, I didn't need an And of course, I didn't need an And of course, I didn't need an interpreter there. I could speak in interpreter there. I could speak in interpreter there. I could speak in German. So, for German. So, for German. So, for a number of years from 1976 to 1989, a number of years from 1976 to 1989, a number of years from 1976 to 1989, when the Berlin Wall fell, I went when the Berlin Wall fell, I went when the Berlin Wall fell, I went numerous times to Hungary, Poland, and numerous times to Hungary, Poland, and numerous times to Hungary, Poland, and the German Democratic Republic. That's the German Democratic Republic. That's the German Democratic Republic. That's how it all started. It was by how it all started. It was by how it all started. It was by invitation. I didn't seek any of it. invitation. I didn't seek any of it. invitation. I didn't seek any of it. >> And so, >> And so, >> And so, as as you were there, really kind of in as as you were there, really kind of in as as you were there, really kind of in enemy territory, at least politically enemy territory, at least politically enemy territory, at least politically speaking, um was there ever a time that speaking, um was there ever a time that speaking, um was there ever a time that you were like, I'm not sure if I'm going you were like, I'm not sure if I'm going you were like, I'm not sure if I'm going to make it out? to make it out? to make it out? >> Oddly [snorts] enough, >> Oddly [snorts] enough, >> Oddly [snorts] enough, uh people have asked me in many uh people have asked me in many uh people have asked me in many interviews, was I scared? And the answer interviews, was I scared? And the answer interviews, was I scared? And the answer is no. is no. is no. I had a great sense of peace. I had a great sense of peace. I had a great sense of peace. And importantly, that was shared by my And importantly, that was shared by my And importantly, that was shared by my wife and family. wife and family. wife and family. Even though people were saying to her, Even though people were saying to her, Even though people were saying to her, your husband is irresponsible going off, your husband is irresponsible going off, your husband is irresponsible going off, but I wouldn't have gone had she not but I wouldn't have gone had she not but I wouldn't have gone had she not been completely happy with it. And I had been completely happy with it. And I had been completely happy with it. And I had such a sense such a sense such a sense of God directing me to those countries.

of God directing me to those countries. of God directing me to those countries. And I tried to explain in my And I tried to explain in my And I tried to explain in my autobiography autobiography autobiography just why I believed it was of God. That just why I believed it was of God. That just why I believed it was of God. That That settled it in my heart. And so I That settled it in my heart. And so I That settled it in my heart. And so I had peace. Interestingly enough, once or had peace. Interestingly enough, once or had peace. Interestingly enough, once or twice I took other people with me and twice I took other people with me and twice I took other people with me and they didn't have much faith. They They they didn't have much faith. They They they didn't have much faith. They They didn't want to come back again because I didn't want to come back again because I didn't want to come back again because I was of course spied on, which I was of course spied on, which I was of course spied on, which I expected, and watched very carefully. expected, and watched very carefully. expected, and watched very carefully. But But But I had peace that God would protect me, I had peace that God would protect me, I had peace that God would protect me, and he did. Although it's absolutely and he did. Although it's absolutely and he did. Although it's absolutely amazing amazing amazing looking back how I got away with it looking back how I got away with it looking back how I got away with it because I was traveling on my own. because I was traveling on my own. because I was traveling on my own. Anything could have happened without Anything could have happened without Anything could have happened without other people knowing. And that's the other people knowing. And that's the other people knowing. And that's the incredible thing. incredible thing. incredible thing. I I just I'm amazed as I look back that I I just I'm amazed as I look back that I I just I'm amazed as I look back that I came through as safely as I did. And I came through as safely as I did. And I came through as safely as I did. And now I've reached stage of 82 and can now I've reached stage of 82 and can now I've reached stage of 82 and can write about it. write about it. write about it. >> One of the reasons why the book is a >> One of the reasons why the book is a >> One of the reasons why the book is a delight is because it reads delight is because it reads delight is because it reads almost like a spy story or, you know, almost like a spy story or, you know, almost like a spy story or, you know, you know, just the adventure and how you know, just the adventure and how you know, just the adventure and how things worked out. And one of the things things worked out. And one of the things things worked out. And one of the things that rose up as I was reading that rose up as I was reading that rose up as I was reading was was was the number of coincidences, you know, the number of coincidences, you know, the number of coincidences, you know, God's providential working. So you God's providential working. So you God's providential working. So you talked about the Hungarian that you talked about the Hungarian that you talked about the Hungarian that you happen to meet, but then there was the happen to meet, but then there was the happen to meet, but then there was the Russian Bible that you just happen to Russian Bible that you just happen to Russian Bible that you just happen to have the copy of that helped the I think have the copy of that helped the I think have the copy of that helped the I think the engineer's wife had lost it.

the engineer's wife had lost it. the engineer's wife had lost it. So So So you say also at one point you say also at one point you say also at one point because you speak of God directing because you speak of God directing because you speak of God directing that that this isn't typical and it was that that this isn't typical and it was that that this isn't typical and it was really some particular points throughout really some particular points throughout really some particular points throughout your life. your life. your life. And I I wonder And I I wonder And I I wonder how is how is how is is it that many of of don't pay as much is it that many of of don't pay as much is it that many of of don't pay as much attention attention attention and we're not seeing the way that God is and we're not seeing the way that God is and we're not seeing the way that God is providentially working in circumstance providentially working in circumstance providentially working in circumstance and and pointing us in directions. and and pointing us in directions. and and pointing us in directions. Or was there something about the your Or was there something about the your Or was there something about the your your particular focus in life that your particular focus in life that your particular focus in life that helped you to see just how God was helped you to see just how God was helped you to see just how God was clearly, you know, bringing you to clearly, you know, bringing you to clearly, you know, bringing you to Hungary, taking you into Russia, which Hungary, taking you into Russia, which Hungary, taking you into Russia, which had a huge evangelistic effect, and and had a huge evangelistic effect, and and had a huge evangelistic effect, and and all those things that you did. >> I can't speak for anyone else. >> I can't speak for anyone else. And how God may or may not guide them. And how God may or may not guide them. And how God may or may not guide them. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> But my attitude is simply that I am >> But my attitude is simply that I am >> But my attitude is simply that I am commanded by the Lord himself commanded by the Lord himself commanded by the Lord himself to share the gospel. That's the first to share the gospel. That's the first to share the gospel. That's the first thing.

thing. thing. And not to keep quiet about it. And not to keep quiet about it. And not to keep quiet about it. Secondly, Secondly, Secondly, I am committed to the basic Christian I am committed to the basic Christian I am committed to the basic Christian confession, confession, confession, which says Jesus Christ is Lord. which says Jesus Christ is Lord. which says Jesus Christ is Lord. It doesn't say he ought to be, or he It doesn't say he ought to be, or he It doesn't say he ought to be, or he should be, or he wants to be. It says should be, or he wants to be. It says should be, or he wants to be. It says that he is. that he is. that he is. And I was taught very early And I was taught very early And I was taught very early to reckon on that, to trust that. In to reckon on that, to trust that. In to reckon on that, to trust that. In other words, to assume other words, to assume other words, to assume that God was guiding me. I didn't need that God was guiding me. I didn't need that God was guiding me. I didn't need to persuade him to do that. He's far to persuade him to do that. He's far to persuade him to do that. He's far more interested in people around than I more interested in people around than I more interested in people around than I am. am. am. And I suppose what that did for me was And I suppose what that did for me was And I suppose what that did for me was it made me it made me it made me acutely aware of people around me, and I acutely aware of people around me, and I acutely aware of people around me, and I was constantly seeking for opportunities was constantly seeking for opportunities was constantly seeking for opportunities to witness. Not in any forced way, but to witness. Not in any forced way, but to witness. Not in any forced way, but simply because I believed that God was simply because I believed that God was simply because I believed that God was interested in those people there. So, I interested in those people there. So, I interested in those people there. So, I should keep my ears and eyes open. should keep my ears and eyes open. should keep my ears and eyes open. To see in what way God was directing me.

To see in what way God was directing me. To see in what way God was directing me. Now, that's one side of it. The other Now, that's one side of it. The other Now, that's one side of it. The other side of it was side of it was side of it was I I I studied Acts in a lot of detail. studied Acts in a lot of detail. studied Acts in a lot of detail. And I noticed that And I noticed that And I noticed that in general, the apostles went about in general, the apostles went about in general, the apostles went about their missionary journeys their missionary journeys their missionary journeys just going from one place to another and just going from one place to another and just going from one place to another and using their common sense as to where to using their common sense as to where to using their common sense as to where to go next. But, there were important go next. But, there were important go next. But, there were important junctures where God seemed to intervene junctures where God seemed to intervene junctures where God seemed to intervene directly and change their course. directly and change their course. directly and change their course. Perhaps the most famous one Perhaps the most famous one Perhaps the most famous one is how the gospel got to Europe. And is how the gospel got to Europe. And is how the gospel got to Europe. And we're told that Paul tried to go here, we're told that Paul tried to go here, we're told that Paul tried to go here, they tried to go there, and the spirit they tried to go there, and the spirit they tried to go there, and the spirit of Jesus forbade them. of Jesus forbade them. of Jesus forbade them. So, he obviously tried. He He was on a So, he obviously tried. He He was on a So, he obviously tried. He He was on a mission. He was commanded to preach the mission. He was commanded to preach the mission. He was commanded to preach the gospel, but he didn't get anywhere until gospel, but he didn't get anywhere until gospel, but he didn't get anywhere until one evening he had a vision of a man in one evening he had a vision of a man in one evening he had a vision of a man in Macedonia saying, "Come over and help Macedonia saying, "Come over and help Macedonia saying, "Come over and help us." us." us." He then discussed that vision with his He then discussed that vision with his He then discussed that vision with his colleagues.

colleagues. colleagues. He didn't just proceed on his own. And He didn't just proceed on his own. And He didn't just proceed on his own. And they concluded that God was calling them they concluded that God was calling them they concluded that God was calling them to Europe. And so, they crossed the sea. to Europe. And so, they crossed the sea. to Europe. And so, they crossed the sea. And that's why I'm sitting talking to And that's why I'm sitting talking to And that's why I'm sitting talking to you. you. you. And And And what I got from that was that what I got from that was that what I got from that was that I might as well expect that my must at I might as well expect that my must at I might as well expect that my must at my much lesser level, God turned to rain my much lesser level, God turned to rain my much lesser level, God turned to rain directly, but not all the time. directly, but not all the time. directly, but not all the time. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Probably couldn't sustain it if God was >> Probably couldn't sustain it if God was >> Probably couldn't sustain it if God was to intervene all the time to intervene all the time to intervene all the time because it would because it would because it would it would become a creeping determinism. it would become a creeping determinism. it would become a creeping determinism. And And And I think the early apostles used their I think the early apostles used their I think the early apostles used their sense sense sense and committed it to God and got on with and committed it to God and got on with and committed it to God and got on with the gospel as they saw the need around the gospel as they saw the need around the gospel as they saw the need around them. But, when God wanted them to move them. But, when God wanted them to move them. But, when God wanted them to move somewhere else, he did something somewhere else, he did something somewhere else, he did something special. And special. And special. And as you saw in the book, there's a number as you saw in the book, there's a number as you saw in the book, there's a number of times where of times where of times where looking back, looking back, looking back, I believe that it wasn't coincidence at I believe that it wasn't coincidence at I believe that it wasn't coincidence at all. It was that God intervened because all. It was that God intervened because all. It was that God intervened because he wanted me to do something different.

he wanted me to do something different. he wanted me to do something different. And the first thing was to go to Eastern And the first thing was to go to Eastern And the first thing was to go to Eastern Europe. And the second thing was to stop Europe. And the second thing was to stop Europe. And the second thing was to stop going to Eastern Europe and start going going to Eastern Europe and start going going to Eastern Europe and start going to Russia. to Russia. to Russia. >> One of the things that characterizes >> One of the things that characterizes >> One of the things that characterizes your your your apologetic posture um in in what could apologetic posture um in in what could apologetic posture um in in what could be a high friction or high heat um sort be a high friction or high heat um sort be a high friction or high heat um sort of environment is uh just a a there's a of environment is uh just a a there's a of environment is uh just a a there's a kindness, uh a a compassion, a a real kindness, uh a a compassion, a a real kindness, uh a a compassion, a a real desire not to score points, but rather desire not to score points, but rather desire not to score points, but rather to uh communicate the truth of the to uh communicate the truth of the to uh communicate the truth of the gospel to the other people. Um gospel to the other people. Um gospel to the other people. Um how how did you come there and see that how how did you come there and see that how how did you come there and see that as so important? And why do you think as so important? And why do you think as so important? And why do you think that's so important for the way that we that's so important for the way that we that's so important for the way that we conduct ourselves as Christians when conduct ourselves as Christians when conduct ourselves as Christians when we're having these dialogues? >> Well, I think >> Well, I think that it really goes back to my father. that it really goes back to my father. that it really goes back to my father. I said earlier, but didn't explain that I said earlier, but didn't explain that I said earlier, but didn't explain that he was a Christian without being he was a Christian without being he was a Christian without being sectarian. sectarian. sectarian. And the specific circumstances that And the specific circumstances that And the specific circumstances that define that he was define that he was define that he was he owned he owned he owned a shop, a store a shop, a store a shop, a store in a small town that I suppose had 30 to in a small town that I suppose had 30 to in a small town that I suppose had 30 to 40 employees. I don't know exactly how 40 employees. I don't know exactly how 40 employees. I don't know exactly how many.

many. many. But he employed both Catholics and But he employed both Catholics and But he employed both Catholics and Protestants Protestants Protestants in a town that was divided across the in a town that was divided across the in a town that was divided across the two two two uh uh uh religions, so to speak. religions, so to speak. religions, so to speak. And that created a lot of difficulty and And that created a lot of difficulty and And that created a lot of difficulty and tension. And eventually it it was bombs, tension. And eventually it it was bombs, tension. And eventually it it was bombs, and my brother was nearly killed. and my brother was nearly killed. and my brother was nearly killed. And I asked him on one occasion why he And I asked him on one occasion why he And I asked him on one occasion why he did it. did it. did it. And he said And he said And he said Genesis teaches us, chapter 1 Genesis teaches us, chapter 1 Genesis teaches us, chapter 1 that all human beings, irrespective of that all human beings, irrespective of that all human beings, irrespective of their world view, are made in the image their world view, are made in the image their world view, are made in the image of God, and I intend to treat them like of God, and I intend to treat them like of God, and I intend to treat them like that. that. that. Now, Now, Now, that was very impressive to me as a that was very impressive to me as a that was very impressive to me as a child, because it cost him child, because it cost him child, because it cost him to live by Christian morality, which he to live by Christian morality, which he to live by Christian morality, which he got from Genesis 1. got from Genesis 1. got from Genesis 1. And I could see that this meant that he And I could see that this meant that he And I could see that this meant that he felt that he was felt that he was felt that he was obliged to treat people like that, obliged to treat people like that, obliged to treat people like that, just as much as anybody else.

just as much as anybody else. just as much as anybody else. And that went very deep into me, and I And that went very deep into me, and I And that went very deep into me, and I resolved that that would be resolved that that would be resolved that that would be a motif a motive for me in relating to a motif a motive for me in relating to a motif a motive for me in relating to other people. So, however hostile they other people. So, however hostile they other people. So, however hostile they are, and some of them were very hostile, are, and some of them were very hostile, are, and some of them were very hostile, as you know, in those debates, as you know, in those debates, as you know, in those debates, >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I tried to look at them as those made in >> I tried to look at them as those made in >> I tried to look at them as those made in the image of God, and also the image of God, and also the image of God, and also those who were from God's point of view those who were from God's point of view those who were from God's point of view lost. And although they might be very lost. And although they might be very lost. And although they might be very bright intellectuals, bright intellectuals, bright intellectuals, I I I felt that I could see serious flaws in felt that I could see serious flaws in felt that I could see serious flaws in their arguments, and that Christianity their arguments, and that Christianity their arguments, and that Christianity was much stronger. So, what I decided to was much stronger. So, what I decided to was much stronger. So, what I decided to do with them was something I decided to do with them was something I decided to do with them was something I decided to do do do generally when I got to Cambridge. generally when I got to Cambridge. generally when I got to Cambridge. I was accused, as people from Ireland I was accused, as people from Ireland I was accused, as people from Ireland are also accused, that are also accused, that are also accused, that you know, if you'd been brought up you know, if you'd been brought up you know, if you'd been brought up somewhere somewhere else, you wouldn't somewhere somewhere else, you wouldn't somewhere somewhere else, you wouldn't be a Christian. The Irish are all be a Christian. The Irish are all be a Christian. The Irish are all Christians, it's in their genetics, et Christians, it's in their genetics, et Christians, it's in their genetics, et cetera, et cetera.

cetera, et cetera. cetera, et cetera. So, I wanted to have So, I wanted to have So, I wanted to have an answer to that that was an answer to that that was an answer to that that was really immersed in my own experience. really immersed in my own experience. really immersed in my own experience. And so, And so, And so, in university, in my first week, I in university, in my first week, I in university, in my first week, I decided to make a deliberate attempt to decided to make a deliberate attempt to decided to make a deliberate attempt to befriend people who did not share my befriend people who did not share my befriend people who did not share my background and world view. background and world view. background and world view. And that became very important. And you And that became very important. And you And that became very important. And you notice I used the word befriend. notice I used the word befriend. notice I used the word befriend. I wasn't regarding them at all as I wasn't regarding them at all as I wasn't regarding them at all as conversion fodder, but I was interested conversion fodder, but I was interested conversion fodder, but I was interested to listen to listen to listen to what their worldview was. Why did to what their worldview was. Why did to what their worldview was. Why did they believe what they believed? What they believe what they believed? What they believe what they believed? What were their difficulties with were their difficulties with were their difficulties with Christianity when I got to know them Christianity when I got to know them Christianity when I got to know them well enough to ask that. well enough to ask that. well enough to ask that. And that became an attitude of mind. And And that became an attitude of mind. And And that became an attitude of mind. And I discovered that by I discovered that by I discovered that by trying to befriend people rather than trying to befriend people rather than trying to befriend people rather than convert them, people began to get convert them, people began to get convert them, people began to get converted because of that friendship. converted because of that friendship. converted because of that friendship. And so I had a considerable experience And so I had a considerable experience And so I had a considerable experience of that before I went stepped into the of that before I went stepped into the of that before I went stepped into the ring with some of the world's most ring with some of the world's most ring with some of the world's most famous and most aggressive atheists.

famous and most aggressive atheists. famous and most aggressive atheists. And And And in addition, looking at the way the Lord in addition, looking at the way the Lord in addition, looking at the way the Lord Jesus behaved and the apostles, how Jesus behaved and the apostles, how Jesus behaved and the apostles, how friendly he was, how friendly he was, how friendly he was, how he treated particularly the vulnerable. he treated particularly the vulnerable. he treated particularly the vulnerable. The only people he was hard on were The only people he was hard on were The only people he was hard on were religious bigots. But other people he religious bigots. But other people he religious bigots. But other people he treated with considerable friendship. treated with considerable friendship. treated with considerable friendship. And he said so to his disciples, I don't And he said so to his disciples, I don't And he said so to his disciples, I don't treat you as servants. You're my treat you as servants. You're my treat you as servants. You're my friends. friends. friends. I call you friends. And I think that I call you friends. And I think that I call you friends. And I think that attitude attitude attitude has has has given me given me given me an entree into many situations because an entree into many situations because an entree into many situations because I've seen again and again I've seen again and again I've seen again and again the power of friendship in changing the power of friendship in changing the power of friendship in changing attitudes and indeed in the end in attitudes and indeed in the end in attitudes and indeed in the end in changing lives. So I'm just trying to changing lives. So I'm just trying to changing lives. So I'm just trying to follow the Lord in that sense in my own follow the Lord in that sense in my own follow the Lord in that sense in my own inadequate way, inadequate way, inadequate way, uh trusting that he will give me the uh trusting that he will give me the uh trusting that he will give me the power through his spirit to do so. power through his spirit to do so. power through his spirit to do so. >> What do you see as the biggest >> What do you see as the biggest >> What do you see as the biggest apologetic challenge that we face as we apologetic challenge that we face as we apologetic challenge that we face as we try and communicate the gospel to our try and communicate the gospel to our try and communicate the gospel to our culture? And how have you seen that culture? And how have you seen that culture? And how have you seen that changed over the the decades?

changed over the the decades? changed over the the decades? >> Well, first we need to >> Well, first we need to >> Well, first we need to ask the question, what do we mean by ask the question, what do we mean by ask the question, what do we mean by apologetics? apologetics? apologetics? Because there is a widespread impression Because there is a widespread impression Because there is a widespread impression sadly among Christians that apologetics sadly among Christians that apologetics sadly among Christians that apologetics is philosophy 101 for clever Christians. is philosophy 101 for clever Christians. is philosophy 101 for clever Christians. But it is not. Apologia, from which the But it is not. Apologia, from which the But it is not. Apologia, from which the word apologetics comes, is not an word apologetics comes, is not an word apologetics comes, is not an English word. It's a Greek word. English word. It's a Greek word. English word. It's a Greek word. And that's the unfortunate thing about And that's the unfortunate thing about And that's the unfortunate thing about the word apologetics, apart from its the word apologetics, apart from its the word apologetics, apart from its connection with an apology and feeling connection with an apology and feeling connection with an apology and feeling sorry for things. It simply means sorry for things. It simply means sorry for things. It simply means defense. defense. defense. And you cannot open your mouth in a And you cannot open your mouth in a And you cannot open your mouth in a multicultural pluralistic society like multicultural pluralistic society like multicultural pluralistic society like we live in here in the West, in your we live in here in the West, in your we live in here in the West, in your country with temptations and sometimes even with temptations and sometimes even accusations. So we've got to defend what accusations. So we've got to defend what accusations. So we've got to defend what we believe. And I wish we'd stop with we believe. And I wish we'd stop with we believe. And I wish we'd stop with that word.

that word. that word. A friend of mine, I I think has given A friend of mine, I I think has given A friend of mine, I I think has given one of the best definitions of one of the best definitions of one of the best definitions of apologetics. He calls it persuasive apologetics. He calls it persuasive apologetics. He calls it persuasive evangelism. evangelism. evangelism. And if you look at the use of the word And if you look at the use of the word And if you look at the use of the word in Acts, apologia is used mainly by in Acts, apologia is used mainly by in Acts, apologia is used mainly by Paul, and his main defense is his Paul, and his main defense is his Paul, and his main defense is his personal experience of conversion on the personal experience of conversion on the personal experience of conversion on the Damascus Road. Damascus Road. Damascus Road. So So So when you ask me what are the big when you ask me what are the big when you ask me what are the big apologetics issues, really the question apologetics issues, really the question apologetics issues, really the question is, translated into English and not is, translated into English and not is, translated into English and not sticking with Greek, sticking with Greek, sticking with Greek, if you'll forgive me, the question is, if you'll forgive me, the question is, if you'll forgive me, the question is, what are the issues, the main what are the issues, the main what are the issues, the main things where we have to defend the things where we have to defend the things where we have to defend the gospel in the contemporary world? And gospel in the contemporary world? And gospel in the contemporary world? And there are many of them. there are many of them. there are many of them. Some of the older ones are still with Some of the older ones are still with Some of the older ones are still with us, as I know, because I'm a scientist, us, as I know, because I'm a scientist, us, as I know, because I'm a scientist, and they are that science has got rid of and they are that science has got rid of and they are that science has got rid of God, hasn't it? God, hasn't it? God, hasn't it? And so one needs to defend the gospel And so one needs to defend the gospel And so one needs to defend the gospel against that ludicrous idea. against that ludicrous idea. against that ludicrous idea. But, But, But, the hardest questions to answer are the the hardest questions to answer are the the hardest questions to answer are the existential ones concerned with pain and existential ones concerned with pain and existential ones concerned with pain and suffering.

suffering. suffering. They're the hardest questions for any They're the hardest questions for any They're the hardest questions for any worldview to answer, and I talk about worldview to answer, and I talk about worldview to answer, and I talk about that a bit in my autobiography because, that a bit in my autobiography because, that a bit in my autobiography because, of course, if you haven't got a of course, if you haven't got a of course, if you haven't got a worldview that has something to say to worldview that has something to say to worldview that has something to say to those in pain or suffering, you haven't those in pain or suffering, you haven't those in pain or suffering, you haven't got a worldview that's that's worthy of got a worldview that's that's worthy of got a worldview that's that's worthy of the name. So, that's an important thing. the name. So, that's an important thing. the name. So, that's an important thing. And what I've noticed over the years And what I've noticed over the years And what I've noticed over the years that the aggression of the new atheists that the aggression of the new atheists that the aggression of the new atheists has a faded away. has a faded away. has a faded away. And the attacks tend to come more or the And the attacks tend to come more or the And the attacks tend to come more or the questions tend to come more on issues of questions tend to come more on issues of questions tend to come more on issues of meaning and ethics and morality. What is meaning and ethics and morality. What is meaning and ethics and morality. What is a human being? What does my life mean? a human being? What does my life mean? a human being? What does my life mean? Uh can I really have a purpose? Uh can I really have a purpose? Uh can I really have a purpose? And there we're now in an age of And there we're now in an age of And there we're now in an age of intelligent machines, so-called. And intelligent machines, so-called. And intelligent machines, so-called. And that's why I've written books on that's why I've written books on that's why I've written books on artificial intelligence because I artificial intelligence because I artificial intelligence because I believe that they are causing a real believe that they are causing a real believe that they are causing a real problem problem problem because they're threatening to rob all because they're threatening to rob all because they're threatening to rob all people, not merely Christians, of their people, not merely Christians, of their people, not merely Christians, of their humanity.

humanity. humanity. And developing an addiction to machines And developing an addiction to machines And developing an addiction to machines that is worse than heroin addiction, as that is worse than heroin addiction, as that is worse than heroin addiction, as has been proved in a recent landmark has been proved in a recent landmark has been proved in a recent landmark decision in the courts in LA, as you decision in the courts in LA, as you decision in the courts in LA, as you probably know. Google and Meta have been probably know. Google and Meta have been probably know. Google and Meta have been found guilty of deliberately setting up found guilty of deliberately setting up found guilty of deliberately setting up uh websites that cause an addiction in uh websites that cause an addiction in uh websites that cause an addiction in young people and cause them mental harm. young people and cause them mental harm. young people and cause them mental harm. And that concerns me greatly. And those And that concerns me greatly. And those And that concerns me greatly. And those are the massive things we're up against. are the massive things we're up against. are the massive things we're up against. And parents and grandparents are running And parents and grandparents are running And parents and grandparents are running scared at the moment, as are many any as scared at the moment, as are many any as scared at the moment, as are many any as is anyone who thinks is anyone who thinks is anyone who thinks about what artificial intelligence is about what artificial intelligence is about what artificial intelligence is doing. doing. doing. I am aware, of course, that AI can be I am aware, of course, that AI can be I am aware, of course, that AI can be very useful, but I think we need to very useful, but I think we need to very useful, but I think we need to concentrate a lot more on its downsides concentrate a lot more on its downsides concentrate a lot more on its downsides because in the end we could be engulfed because in the end we could be engulfed because in the end we could be engulfed by the kind of reductive materialism by the kind of reductive materialism by the kind of reductive materialism that is behind a lot of artificial that is behind a lot of artificial that is behind a lot of artificial intelligence and reducing us to grovel intelligence and reducing us to grovel intelligence and reducing us to grovel in front of a machine and become machine in front of a machine and become machine in front of a machine and become machine dependent for our decisions and dependent for our decisions and dependent for our decisions and everything else, which in the end is to everything else, which in the end is to everything else, which in the end is to destroy our humanity destroy our humanity destroy our humanity as C.S. Lewis predicted in 1940 that it as C.S. Lewis predicted in 1940 that it as C.S. Lewis predicted in 1940 that it would.

would. would. >> What What gives you hope for the church >> What What gives you hope for the church >> What What gives you hope for the church for the next 50 years? >> Well, when Christianity started >> Well, when Christianity started there were 11 people that trusted Jesus there were 11 people that trusted Jesus there were 11 people that trusted Jesus and a world which was pluralistic and a world which was pluralistic and a world which was pluralistic many false gods, a world in which the many false gods, a world in which the many false gods, a world in which the Caesars were being revered as gods. And Caesars were being revered as gods. And Caesars were being revered as gods. And here we reach the 21st century where here we reach the 21st century where here we reach the 21st century where we are being encouraged to we are being encouraged to we are being encouraged to develop humans into super intelligences develop humans into super intelligences develop humans into super intelligences or little gods by people like Yuval Noah or little gods by people like Yuval Noah or little gods by people like Yuval Noah Harari. So, we're back in the New Harari. So, we're back in the New Harari. So, we're back in the New Testament world almost. Testament world almost. Testament world almost. And I think what gives me hope, of And I think what gives me hope, of And I think what gives me hope, of course, course, course, is oddly enough is oddly enough is oddly enough that the promise of transhumanists like that the promise of transhumanists like that the promise of transhumanists like Harari Harari Harari uh which are mainly one that the problem uh which are mainly one that the problem uh which are mainly one that the problem of physical death will be solved as a of physical death will be solved as a of physical death will be solved as a medical problem pretty soon in this medical problem pretty soon in this medical problem pretty soon in this century and secondly, human happiness century and secondly, human happiness century and secondly, human happiness will be increased immeasurably through will be increased immeasurably through will be increased immeasurably through genetic engineering and all the rest of genetic engineering and all the rest of genetic engineering and all the rest of it.

it. it. And when people tell me that, I say, you And when people tell me that, I say, you And when people tell me that, I say, you know know know you're too late. you're too late. you're too late. I I say, they say, "What do you mean I I say, they say, "What do you mean I I say, they say, "What do you mean we're too late?'" I said, "Look, the we're too late?'" I said, "Look, the we're too late?'" I said, "Look, the problem of physical death was solved 20 problem of physical death was solved 20 problem of physical death was solved 20 centuries ago when God raised Jesus from centuries ago when God raised Jesus from centuries ago when God raised Jesus from the dead. the dead. the dead. And as for happiness and eternal life by And as for happiness and eternal life by And as for happiness and eternal life by uploading your brains onto silicon and uploading your brains onto silicon and uploading your brains onto silicon and preserving yourself forever, preserving yourself forever, preserving yourself forever, that is incredible compared with the that is incredible compared with the that is incredible compared with the promise of Jesus that promise of Jesus that promise of Jesus that those who trust him will be uploaded. those who trust him will be uploaded. those who trust him will be uploaded. The word is resurrected The word is resurrected The word is resurrected when he returns to live with him when he returns to live with him when he returns to live with him eternally. And nothing that's good of eternally. And nothing that's good of eternally. And nothing that's good of what they've experienced down here will what they've experienced down here will what they've experienced down here will be lost. That's the program I believe be lost. That's the program I believe be lost. That's the program I believe in. So, what gives me hope in the face in. So, what gives me hope in the face in. So, what gives me hope in the face of all of this is the resurrection of of all of this is the resurrection of of all of this is the resurrection of Jesus and its implications Jesus and its implications Jesus and its implications that he is alive, which is why, by the that he is alive, which is why, by the that he is alive, which is why, by the way, way, way, I have written last year a very big book I have written last year a very big book I have written last year a very big book on the book of Revelation.

on the book of Revelation. on the book of Revelation. It has a title that's slightly It has a title that's slightly It has a title that's slightly misleading. It's called God, AI, and the misleading. It's called God, AI, and the misleading. It's called God, AI, and the End of History. But its subtitle is what End of History. But its subtitle is what End of History. But its subtitle is what it's about, understanding the book of it's about, understanding the book of it's about, understanding the book of Revelation in an age of intelligent Revelation in an age of intelligent Revelation in an age of intelligent machines. machines. machines. And the central hope And the central hope And the central hope that Christians offered to the world in that Christians offered to the world in that Christians offered to the world in their day was that their day was that their day was that the Jesus that God raised from the dead the Jesus that God raised from the dead the Jesus that God raised from the dead had gone to heaven, literally and had gone to heaven, literally and had gone to heaven, literally and physically, by the way, and I believe physically, by the way, and I believe physically, by the way, and I believe that as a scientist, and that he will that as a scientist, and that he will that as a scientist, and that he will one day return in the same way that they one day return in the same way that they one day return in the same way that they saw him go, that is literally and saw him go, that is literally and saw him go, that is literally and physically. And so, I wrote this book physically. And so, I wrote this book physically. And so, I wrote this book because I feel that for various sad because I feel that for various sad because I feel that for various sad reasons, reasons, reasons, the Christian church has largely ignored the Christian church has largely ignored the Christian church has largely ignored the book of Revelation. They've become the book of Revelation. They've become the book of Revelation. They've become afraid of it because of extreme afraid of it because of extreme afraid of it because of extreme interpretation, and so they've missed interpretation, and so they've missed interpretation, and so they've missed the really good stuff that we can the really good stuff that we can the really good stuff that we can understand. And I've made a little understand. And I've made a little understand. And I've made a little attempt, maybe it's feeble, attempt, maybe it's feeble, attempt, maybe it's feeble, but I'm encouraged by its reception to but I'm encouraged by its reception to but I'm encouraged by its reception to bring it back as the book, the last book bring it back as the book, the last book bring it back as the book, the last book of the Bible, that is framed by the of the Bible, that is framed by the of the Bible, that is framed by the return of Jesus. Three times over in the return of Jesus. Three times over in the return of Jesus. Three times over in the first chapter and three times over in first chapter and three times over in first chapter and three times over in the last chapter, it refers to the the last chapter, it refers to the the last chapter, it refers to the return.

return. return. The return of God in his son, Jesus The return of God in his son, Jesus The return of God in his son, Jesus Christ. And that's my hope. Christ. And that's my hope. Christ. And that's my hope. It doesn't finish on Earth because here It doesn't finish on Earth because here It doesn't finish on Earth because here am I at 82 and my horizon gets broader, am I at 82 and my horizon gets broader, am I at 82 and my horizon gets broader, not narrower. not narrower. not narrower. Because one day, if Jesus doesn't come Because one day, if Jesus doesn't come Because one day, if Jesus doesn't come in the meantime, in the meantime, in the meantime, I will die. But I will not cease to I will die. But I will not cease to I will die. But I will not cease to exist because [music] I already possess exist because [music] I already possess exist because [music] I already possess a life that he gave me a life that he gave me a life that he gave me many years ago, 70 or so years ago, an many years ago, 70 or so years ago, an many years ago, 70 or so years ago, an eternal life that is his life, his gift. eternal life that is his life, his gift. eternal life that is his life, his gift. And I received it, he gave it to me And I received it, he gave it to me And I received it, he gave it to me without my merit of any kind, but without my merit of any kind, but without my merit of any kind, but because of what he has done. because of what he has done. because of what he has done. And I've lived with him And I've lived with him And I've lived with him for all those years and come to trust for all those years and come to trust for all those years and come to trust him. And I know he's going to keep his him. And I know he's going to keep his him. And I know he's going to keep his promise. promise. promise. And that I think is the best hope that And that I think is the best hope that And that I think is the best hope that can be offered to humanity with all its can be offered to humanity with all its can be offered to humanity with all its difficulties, pain, and suffering.