AI and Emotion: Can Machines Feel? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 5]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition a podcast from the Gospel Coalition a podcast from the Gospel Coalition about what it means to be human in the about what it means to be human in the about what it means to be human in the age of AI. age of AI. age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this series, we're circling around three series, we're circling around three series, we're circling around three crucial questions. crucial questions. crucial questions. What can AI do for us? What can AI do for us? What can AI do for us? What is it doing to us? And what is it What is it doing to us? And what is it What is it doing to us? And what is it showing us about who we really are? showing us about who we really are? showing us about who we really are? Well, to think about those questions Well, to think about those questions Well, to think about those questions today, I'm delighted to be joined by today, I'm delighted to be joined by today, I'm delighted to be joined by Rosalind Picard, uh, professor at MIT Rosalind Picard, uh, professor at MIT Rosalind Picard, uh, professor at MIT and founder of the MIT Media Labs and founder of the MIT Media Labs and founder of the MIT Media Labs effective computing research group, uh, effective computing research group, uh, effective computing research group, uh, where she and her team develop where she and her team develop where she and her team develop technologies that enable computers to technologies that enable computers to technologies that enable computers to recognize and respond to human emotions. recognize and respond to human emotions. recognize and respond to human emotions. Ros, welcome to the podcast. Ros, welcome to the podcast. Ros, welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks, Chris. Such a pleasure to be >> Thanks, Chris. Such a pleasure to be >> Thanks, Chris. Such a pleasure to be here with you. here with you. here with you. >> Ros, I'd love to begin with a scenario >> Ros, I'd love to begin with a scenario >> Ros, I'd love to begin with a scenario if I could, and I'd love your reaction if I could, and I'd love your reaction if I could, and I'd love your reaction to it. There's a lot in here, so feel to it. There's a lot in here, so feel to it. There's a lot in here, so feel free to to pick whatever you think is is free to to pick whatever you think is is free to to pick whatever you think is is most important.

most important. most important. I'd like you to imagine Mia. I'd like you to imagine Mia. I'd like you to imagine Mia. She's a 16-year-old uh in a local church She's a 16-year-old uh in a local church She's a 16-year-old uh in a local church youth group. She wears a smartwatch that youth group. She wears a smartwatch that youth group. She wears a smartwatch that tracks her stress and her sleep. And she tracks her stress and her sleep. And she tracks her stress and her sleep. And she wears an app that uses an emotional AI wears an app that uses an emotional AI wears an app that uses an emotional AI coach uh to to try and coach her through coach uh to to try and coach her through coach uh to to try and coach her through anxiety. anxiety. anxiety. Late at night when she's feeling lonely, Late at night when she's feeling lonely, Late at night when she's feeling lonely, she sometimes chats with an AI she sometimes chats with an AI she sometimes chats with an AI companion. The companion remembers her companion. The companion remembers her companion. The companion remembers her history and it it responds in history and it it responds in history and it it responds in sympathetic language and it it makes her sympathetic language and it it makes her sympathetic language and it it makes her these are her own words. It makes her these are her own words. It makes her these are her own words. It makes her feel seen and loved. She says it feel seen and loved. She says it feel seen and loved. She says it actually gets me better than most adults actually gets me better than most adults actually gets me better than most adults do. It's my safe place. do. It's my safe place. do. It's my safe place. How would you react to Mia's situation? How would you react to Mia's situation? How would you react to Mia's situation? How would you advise her if you were How would you advise her if you were How would you advise her if you were speaking with her? speaking with her? speaking with her? >> Oh goodness, there's a lot in there. >> Oh goodness, there's a lot in there. >> Oh goodness, there's a lot in there. Uh Uh Uh I I think one of the things I've been I I think one of the things I've been I I think one of the things I've been particularly concerned about lately is particularly concerned about lately is particularly concerned about lately is the companion uh chatbots. They may the companion uh chatbots. They may the companion uh chatbots. They may start off with some very helpful start off with some very helpful start off with some very helpful suggestions for people and they uh suggestions for people and they uh suggestions for people and they uh certainly have been trained on the best certainly have been trained on the best certainly have been trained on the best of human dialogues to match your input of human dialogues to match your input of human dialogues to match your input to another input that somebody labeled to another input that somebody labeled to another input that somebody labeled the response to as an excellent the response to as an excellent the response to as an excellent response. Um, unfortunately they're also response. Um, unfortunately they're also response. Um, unfortunately they're also uh being provided largely by companies uh being provided largely by companies uh being provided largely by companies that have a uh need to make a lot of

that have a uh need to make a lot of that have a uh need to make a lot of revenue to pay back investors. And so revenue to pay back investors. And so revenue to pay back investors. And so they get more revenue the longer they they get more revenue the longer they they get more revenue the longer they keep you on them. Uh it's like one keep you on them. Uh it's like one keep you on them. Uh it's like one question fine, another question, another question fine, another question, another question fine, another question, another question kachink kachink. And the more question kachink kachink. And the more question kachink kachink. And the more they can hook you for hours, the new they can hook you for hours, the new they can hook you for hours, the new California law says to alert the youth California law says to alert the youth California law says to alert the youth after three hours, uh the more youth get after three hours, uh the more youth get after three hours, uh the more youth get into them and can get addicted to them into them and can get addicted to them into them and can get addicted to them to them to the point where they don't uh to them to the point where they don't uh to them to the point where they don't uh spend important time with real human spend important time with real human spend important time with real human beings. Uh and as Christians know, being beings. Uh and as Christians know, being beings. Uh and as Christians know, being seen and loved by God and by one another seen and loved by God and by one another seen and loved by God and by one another is so much greater. And if somebody's is so much greater. And if somebody's is so much greater. And if somebody's happy with this fabrication of that, happy with this fabrication of that, happy with this fabrication of that, then I think that's a warning sign. So, then I think that's a warning sign. So, then I think that's a warning sign. So, uh, that right there is maybe the uh, that right there is maybe the uh, that right there is maybe the biggest red flag in the scenario. I'm biggest red flag in the scenario. I'm biggest red flag in the scenario. I'm happy to address some of the other happy to address some of the other happy to address some of the other things, too, though. things, too, though. things, too, though. >> Yeah. No, let's keep going. Let's let's >> Yeah. No, let's keep going. Let's let's >> Yeah. No, let's keep going. Let's let's tease out what what's happening in Mia's tease out what what's happening in Mia's tease out what what's happening in Mia's situation and and what you think might situation and and what you think might situation and and what you think might be problematic about it, please.

be problematic about it, please. be problematic about it, please. >> Yeah. Um, there are, I'll have to say, >> Yeah. Um, there are, I'll have to say, >> Yeah. Um, there are, I'll have to say, different apps out there and different different apps out there and different different apps out there and different wearables out there that give different wearables out there that give different wearables out there that give different qualities of data. Some are medically qualities of data. Some are medically qualities of data. Some are medically certified. I happen to be wearing two certified. I happen to be wearing two certified. I happen to be wearing two that have FDA clearances attached to that have FDA clearances attached to that have FDA clearances attached to them. I'm always wearing and testing them. I'm always wearing and testing them. I'm always wearing and testing something. Uh, so I'm wearing ones that something. Uh, so I'm wearing ones that something. Uh, so I'm wearing ones that have been through extensive medical have been through extensive medical have been through extensive medical validation. They're validated on validation. They're validated on validation. They're validated on different skin tones and for different different skin tones and for different different skin tones and for different medical conditions and different ages medical conditions and different ages medical conditions and different ages and sizes of people. Um, but there's a and sizes of people. Um, but there's a and sizes of people. Um, but there's a lot of consumer ones that will make lot of consumer ones that will make lot of consumer ones that will make similar sounding claims and they're not similar sounding claims and they're not similar sounding claims and they're not accurate. Uh, and for example, stress accurate. Uh, and for example, stress accurate. Uh, and for example, stress claims of stress are usually not claims of stress are usually not claims of stress are usually not accurate. They're, um, stress is much accurate. They're, um, stress is much accurate. They're, um, stress is much more complicated than what these devices more complicated than what these devices more complicated than what these devices uh, are actually computing. uh, are actually computing. uh, are actually computing. um the ability to measure some um the ability to measure some um the ability to measure some parameters of sleep has gotten very parameters of sleep has gotten very parameters of sleep has gotten very advanced and I think that th that may be advanced and I think that th that may be advanced and I think that th that may be one of the more reliable things even on one of the more reliable things even on one of the more reliable things even on the consumer side. It is possible to get the consumer side. It is possible to get the consumer side. It is possible to get FDA clearance on sleep. This one just FDA clearance on sleep. This one just FDA clearance on sleep. This one just both of these have it. Um but mo most both of these have it. Um but mo most both of these have it. Um but mo most consumers don't but just getting good um consumers don't but just getting good um consumers don't but just getting good um understanding of your sleepweight understanding of your sleepweight understanding of your sleepweight rhythms I think is extremely important.

rhythms I think is extremely important. rhythms I think is extremely important. uh and as as a Christian we know that uh and as as a Christian we know that uh and as as a Christian we know that you know God came down and was embodied you know God came down and was embodied you know God came down and was embodied in this kind of limited uh like assuming in this kind of limited uh like assuming in this kind of limited uh like assuming this limited body right uh and our this limited body right uh and our this limited body right uh and our bodies being very limited sometimes bodies being very limited sometimes bodies being very limited sometimes really do suffer more anxiety and stress really do suffer more anxiety and stress really do suffer more anxiety and stress if we don't sleep well we have seen many if we don't sleep well we have seen many if we don't sleep well we have seen many cases where when a young person fixes cases where when a young person fixes cases where when a young person fixes their sleep then their anxiety their their sleep then their anxiety their their sleep then their anxiety their depression and other problems uh are depression and other problems uh are depression and other problems uh are significantly reduced significantly reduced significantly reduced So, I'm actually a huge fan of uh fixing So, I'm actually a huge fan of uh fixing So, I'm actually a huge fan of uh fixing that sleep if it's not good, learning that sleep if it's not good, learning that sleep if it's not good, learning what good sleep hygiene is. And I think what good sleep hygiene is. And I think what good sleep hygiene is. And I think wearables and a number of apps out there wearables and a number of apps out there wearables and a number of apps out there are excellent at helping with those. Um are excellent at helping with those. Um are excellent at helping with those. Um there are also wearables that help with there are also wearables that help with there are also wearables that help with uh anxiety and um again, some of them uh anxiety and um again, some of them uh anxiety and um again, some of them are like really not good and others uh are like really not good and others uh are like really not good and others uh have lots of medical evidence, but have lots of medical evidence, but have lots of medical evidence, but they're really boring. and so people they're really boring. and so people they're really boring. and so people don't want to use them. Um, but I'll don't want to use them. Um, but I'll don't want to use them. Um, but I'll have to say that if if you're going have to say that if if you're going have to say that if if you're going through a um, you know, anxiety and through a um, you know, anxiety and through a um, you know, anxiety and loneliness, the solution really is not loneliness, the solution really is not loneliness, the solution really is not just in an app or a wearable. Uh I think just in an app or a wearable. Uh I think just in an app or a wearable. Uh I think a really healthy solution is that these a really healthy solution is that these a really healthy solution is that these are companions of companion information are companions of companion information are companions of companion information providers, not companion people, providers, not companion people, providers, not companion people, companion information providers to help companion information providers to help companion information providers to help with uh getting insight into what's with uh getting insight into what's with uh getting insight into what's actually happening. Like most people

actually happening. Like most people actually happening. Like most people don't know how long it took them to fall don't know how long it took them to fall don't know how long it took them to fall asleep. And they'll think that they were asleep. And they'll think that they were asleep. And they'll think that they were up all night, but they weren't. Or up all night, but they weren't. Or up all night, but they weren't. Or they'll think that they slept great, but they'll think that they slept great, but they'll think that they slept great, but in fact they have horribly fragmented in fact they have horribly fragmented in fact they have horribly fragmented sleep. So the um objective data can sleep. So the um objective data can sleep. So the um objective data can augment that experiential data and be augment that experiential data and be augment that experiential data and be very helpful. very helpful. very helpful. >> That is that answer is really helpful as >> That is that answer is really helpful as >> That is that answer is really helpful as well. Thank you. We'll we'll come back a well. Thank you. We'll we'll come back a well. Thank you. We'll we'll come back a little bit later to to this idea that little bit later to to this idea that little bit later to to this idea that that Mia has of you know I'm seen, I'm that Mia has of you know I'm seen, I'm that Mia has of you know I'm seen, I'm heard. It it it works for me. But I I heard. It it it works for me. But I I heard. It it it works for me. But I I want to come back to something you you want to come back to something you you want to come back to something you you said in the course of that response said in the course of that response said in the course of that response which was you were contrasting a a which was you were contrasting a a which was you were contrasting a a biblical view uh of emotion to um the biblical view uh of emotion to um the biblical view uh of emotion to um the the sort of view that we might get from the sort of view that we might get from the sort of view that we might get from these apps. And I I I just want to try these apps. And I I I just want to try these apps. And I I I just want to try and unpack that a little bit more. When and unpack that a little bit more. When and unpack that a little bit more. When we look at the sweep of the biblical we look at the sweep of the biblical we look at the sweep of the biblical narrative that there is a huge amount of narrative that there is a huge amount of narrative that there is a huge amount of emotion in there obviously isn't there? emotion in there obviously isn't there? emotion in there obviously isn't there? You know, Jesus weeping at the tomb of You know, Jesus weeping at the tomb of You know, Jesus weeping at the tomb of Lazarus is just the tip of a huge Lazarus is just the tip of a huge Lazarus is just the tip of a huge iceberg of emotion. And how does the iceberg of emotion. And how does the iceberg of emotion. And how does the Christian story of emotion challenge Christian story of emotion challenge Christian story of emotion challenge what we might clumsily call the Silicon what we might clumsily call the Silicon what we might clumsily call the Silicon um valley view of emotion and affect?

um valley view of emotion and affect? um valley view of emotion and affect? What What do you think the Bible can What What do you think the Bible can What What do you think the Bible can teach us about emotion in the age of AI? teach us about emotion in the age of AI? teach us about emotion in the age of AI? >> Well, it's interesting you point out the >> Well, it's interesting you point out the >> Well, it's interesting you point out the emotions. I think when when I first emotions. I think when when I first emotions. I think when when I first started working on what I named started working on what I named started working on what I named affective computing uh an awful lot of affective computing uh an awful lot of affective computing uh an awful lot of people pulled me aside most of them uh people pulled me aside most of them uh people pulled me aside most of them uh fellow engineers and usually they would fellow engineers and usually they would fellow engineers and usually they would look at my feet uh and they would say look at my feet uh and they would say look at my feet uh and they would say Roz why are you working on emotion some Roz why are you working on emotion some Roz why are you working on emotion some of them would say I don't have emotions of them would say I don't have emotions of them would say I don't have emotions like others would say emotion is like others would say emotion is like others would say emotion is irrelevant others would say like it's irrelevant others would say like it's irrelevant others would say like it's just noise it's it's like the just noise it's it's like the just noise it's it's like the undesirable part of of life. And so I undesirable part of of life. And so I undesirable part of of life. And so I think it's wonderful that you're think it's wonderful that you're think it's wonderful that you're pointing out right away that uh it's pointing out right away that uh it's pointing out right away that uh it's important. It really does matter because important. It really does matter because important. It really does matter because there are a lot of people still today uh there are a lot of people still today uh there are a lot of people still today uh who think it's a waste of time. Now um who think it's a waste of time. Now um who think it's a waste of time. Now um some people will listen to this and be some people will listen to this and be some people will listen to this and be shocked. But uh I would sit there and shocked. But uh I would sit there and shocked. But uh I would sit there and look at these people telling me that I'm look at these people telling me that I'm look at these people telling me that I'm throwing away my career looking at throwing away my career looking at throwing away my career looking at emotion because it was irrelevant. Um emotion because it was irrelevant. Um emotion because it was irrelevant. Um because many of them really don't feel because many of them really don't feel because many of them really don't feel emotion. I learned uh about one in 10 emotion. I learned uh about one in 10 emotion. I learned uh about one in 10 people have what's called alexathyia.

people have what's called alexathyia. people have what's called alexathyia. They um they either aren't aware of They um they either aren't aware of They um they either aren't aware of emotions in their body until they become emotions in their body until they become emotions in their body until they become extreme, right? Like total meltdown. Um extreme, right? Like total meltdown. Um extreme, right? Like total meltdown. Um or they uh might kind of be aware that or they uh might kind of be aware that or they uh might kind of be aware that something's happening, but they don't something's happening, but they don't something's happening, but they don't know like what it is, how to label it, know like what it is, how to label it, know like what it is, how to label it, what do you call it? Like what does that what do you call it? Like what does that what do you call it? Like what does that mean? I kind of feel something, but I mean? I kind of feel something, but I mean? I kind of feel something, but I don't have any words for it. And all of don't have any words for it. And all of don't have any words for it. And all of the This is a real handicap when it the This is a real handicap when it the This is a real handicap when it comes to sensing a meltdown coming on comes to sensing a meltdown coming on comes to sensing a meltdown coming on and being able to like tamp it down and being able to like tamp it down and being able to like tamp it down before it hijacks your brain. Uh, it's a before it hijacks your brain. Uh, it's a before it hijacks your brain. Uh, it's a real problem when you um have lingering real problem when you um have lingering real problem when you um have lingering emotions that need addressing and you emotions that need addressing and you emotions that need addressing and you aren't really like sure what to do about aren't really like sure what to do about aren't really like sure what to do about them. So there are a lot there's you them. So there are a lot there's you them. So there are a lot there's you know tenth of our society uh is dealing know tenth of our society uh is dealing know tenth of our society uh is dealing with this and thinks they're pretty much with this and thinks they're pretty much with this and thinks they're pretty much either irrelevant or just a total either irrelevant or just a total either irrelevant or just a total mystery. Um in autism a a community that mystery. Um in autism a a community that mystery. Um in autism a a community that I've I adore and have spent a lot of I've I adore and have spent a lot of I've I adore and have spent a lot of time with there the rate of alexathy is time with there the rate of alexathy is time with there the rate of alexathy is more like about 50%. So there a lot of more like about 50%. So there a lot of more like about 50%. So there a lot of um groups there's also people with um groups there's also people with um groups there's also people with non-verbal learning disability and non-verbal learning disability and non-verbal learning disability and others who just really don't get it with others who just really don't get it with others who just really don't get it with kind of their normal uh born state of kind of their normal uh born state of kind of their normal uh born state of affective experience. So right away it's affective experience. So right away it's affective experience. So right away it's neat to see that the Bible tells us neat to see that the Bible tells us neat to see that the Bible tells us about emotions. Uh we also know in uh

about emotions. Uh we also know in uh about emotions. Uh we also know in uh learning about emotion that what we learning about emotion that what we learning about emotion that what we measure about it is but a small part of measure about it is but a small part of measure about it is but a small part of what they are. Uh never in my work have what they are. Uh never in my work have what they are. Uh never in my work have I said we are uh true and I have to be a I said we are uh true and I have to be a I said we are uh true and I have to be a little careful here cuz um let me just little careful here cuz um let me just little careful here cuz um let me just say that when I named the area affective say that when I named the area affective say that when I named the area affective computing and named an area of teaching computing and named an area of teaching computing and named an area of teaching a computer how to read things like the a computer how to read things like the a computer how to read things like the lip corner pull and the eyebrow rays and lip corner pull and the eyebrow rays and lip corner pull and the eyebrow rays and some of these signals that people often some of these signals that people often some of these signals that people often associate with emotion. We labeled them associate with emotion. We labeled them associate with emotion. We labeled them just like people did at the time, like, just like people did at the time, like, just like people did at the time, like, oh, if it looks like it might be a fuzzy oh, if it looks like it might be a fuzzy oh, if it looks like it might be a fuzzy animal with ears and a tail and four animal with ears and a tail and four animal with ears and a tail and four paws, you know, maybe we call it dog paws, you know, maybe we call it dog paws, you know, maybe we call it dog recognition or we call that cat recognition or we call that cat recognition or we call that cat recognition or we call that person recognition or we call that person recognition or we call that person recognition. Um, nowhere is it seeing recognition. Um, nowhere is it seeing recognition. Um, nowhere is it seeing your innermost feelings. It is putting your innermost feelings. It is putting your innermost feelings. It is putting together whatever information you do together whatever information you do together whatever information you do give it permission to have as an input. give it permission to have as an input. give it permission to have as an input. Uh, and attaching a label to that. That Uh, and attaching a label to that. That Uh, and attaching a label to that. That would be the kind of label a person would be the kind of label a person would be the kind of label a person would attach to it. So, you just nodded would attach to it. So, you just nodded would attach to it. So, you just nodded and raised your brows, which you know and raised your brows, which you know and raised your brows, which you know kind of look like you might be kind of look like you might be kind of look like you might be interested. Um, but I don't know if interested. Um, but I don't know if interested. Um, but I don't know if you're feeling interest. Maybe you're you're feeling interest. Maybe you're you're feeling interest. Maybe you're just thinking like this is really boring just thinking like this is really boring just thinking like this is really boring and I should just nod and raise my brows and I should just nod and raise my brows and I should just nod and raise my brows and get through it. And when I say that, and get through it. And when I say that, and get through it. And when I say that, >> I assure you it's the farmer.

>> I assure you it's the farmer. >> I assure you it's the farmer. >> And when I say that and you smile, I >> And when I say that and you smile, I >> And when I say that and you smile, I think, well, maybe that was funny, think, well, maybe that was funny, think, well, maybe that was funny, right? Like, because it's contingent on right? Like, because it's contingent on right? Like, because it's contingent on what just happened. So it's very what just happened. So it's very what just happened. So it's very important that we look at all these important that we look at all these important that we look at all these signals in a context of what else is signals in a context of what else is signals in a context of what else is going on. Um and then in that context going on. Um and then in that context going on. Um and then in that context when we read the uh messages on the face when we read the uh messages on the face when we read the uh messages on the face and the voice and sometimes with and the voice and sometimes with and the voice and sometimes with permission the physiology or other permission the physiology or other permission the physiology or other information we um we try to make an information we um we try to make an information we um we try to make an inference. We make an educated guess inference. We make an educated guess inference. We make an educated guess about what might be underneath driving about what might be underneath driving about what might be underneath driving that. But we do not have access to your that. But we do not have access to your that. But we do not have access to your true internal experience. So when you true internal experience. So when you true internal experience. So when you talk about what an emotion is, it's like talk about what an emotion is, it's like talk about what an emotion is, it's like it's that true internal experience uh it's that true internal experience uh it's that true internal experience uh that we don't have access to. However, that we don't have access to. However, that we don't have access to. However, when you talk about producing a label when you talk about producing a label when you talk about producing a label like happy or sad, the um computer like happy or sad, the um computer like happy or sad, the um computer recognition, pattern recognition, recognition, pattern recognition, recognition, pattern recognition, machine learning community calls it machine learning community calls it machine learning community calls it emotion recognition. So um when talking emotion recognition. So um when talking emotion recognition. So um when talking to the public have to be very careful to the public have to be very careful to the public have to be very careful it's not recognizing your feelings, it's not recognizing your feelings, it's not recognizing your feelings, right? Um but when in the computer uh right? Um but when in the computer uh right? Um but when in the computer uh you know AI community we talk about you know AI community we talk about you know AI community we talk about emotion recognition we know it means emotion recognition we know it means emotion recognition we know it means what it means and that's not actually what it means and that's not actually what it means and that's not actually recognizing that full or even that inner recognizing that full or even that inner recognizing that full or even that inner emotional experience and this is getting emotional experience and this is getting emotional experience and this is getting right to the heart of what I was wanting right to the heart of what I was wanting right to the heart of what I was wanting to talk with you about um because it to talk with you about um because it to talk with you about um because it we're getting to the point now it seems we're getting to the point now it seems we're getting to the point now it seems to me as as someone on the outside of to me as as someone on the outside of to me as as someone on the outside of this where LLMs and other techn this where LLMs and other techn this where LLMs and other techn technologies can very convincingly

technologies can very convincingly technologies can very convincingly imitate human emotion. They can give off imitate human emotion. They can give off imitate human emotion. They can give off all the signs whether it's all the signs whether it's all the signs whether it's linguistically or or increasingly with linguistically or or increasingly with linguistically or or increasingly with with you know robots um of being happy with you know robots um of being happy with you know robots um of being happy or sad or interested or frustrated or or sad or interested or frustrated or or sad or interested or frustrated or whatever it is and we often reflexively whatever it is and we often reflexively whatever it is and we often reflexively say especially from sort of a Christian say especially from sort of a Christian say especially from sort of a Christian point of view where we want to protect point of view where we want to protect point of view where we want to protect the the the sacredness the differentness the the the sacredness the differentness the the the sacredness the differentness of being human. We say things like, "Oh, of being human. We say things like, "Oh, of being human. We say things like, "Oh, yes. Well, an AI can act as if it's yes. Well, an AI can act as if it's yes. Well, an AI can act as if it's happy, but it can't actually be happy." happy, but it can't actually be happy." happy, but it can't actually be happy." And I I just want to stress test that And I I just want to stress test that And I I just want to stress test that idea with you. I I think it's true, but idea with you. I I think it's true, but idea with you. I I think it's true, but I I want to try and be clear on what we I I want to try and be clear on what we I I want to try and be clear on what we mean by that. What exactly is the mean by that. What exactly is the mean by that. What exactly is the difference between acting as if it's difference between acting as if it's difference between acting as if it's happy and being happy? And and also what happy and being happy? And and also what happy and being happy? And and also what does it say about us that we put so much does it say about us that we put so much does it say about us that we put so much star on this is internal experience of a star on this is internal experience of a star on this is internal experience of a thing rather than just the appearance of thing rather than just the appearance of thing rather than just the appearance of it. Why is this distinction important it. Why is this distinction important it. Why is this distinction important for Christians?

for Christians? for Christians? >> Yeah, it's hard to come up with language >> Yeah, it's hard to come up with language >> Yeah, it's hard to come up with language that that that really captures it. You know, when I try really captures it. You know, when I try really captures it. You know, when I try to think of the being versus acting, to think of the being versus acting, to think of the being versus acting, you know, my my son was just helping you know, my my son was just helping you know, my my son was just helping high school students put on The Merchant high school students put on The Merchant high school students put on The Merchant of Venice and the infamous character of Venice and the infamous character of Venice and the infamous character Shillock, right? There's a student Shillock, right? There's a student Shillock, right? There's a student playing Shillock. And what does it mean playing Shillock. And what does it mean playing Shillock. And what does it mean to act Shillock? It was very hard for to act Shillock? It was very hard for to act Shillock? It was very hard for this student to to become, right? this student to to become, right? this student to to become, right? There's method acting. There are There's method acting. There are There's method acting. There are different acting schools and thoughts. different acting schools and thoughts. different acting schools and thoughts. Some where you just really try to uh Some where you just really try to uh Some where you just really try to uh adopt the outward appearances and others adopt the outward appearances and others adopt the outward appearances and others where you try to truly internalize and where you try to truly internalize and where you try to truly internalize and be that character, right? You really get be that character, right? You really get be that character, right? You really get into it. It gets into you. You try to into it. It gets into you. You try to into it. It gets into you. You try to find all the evil inside you and try to find all the evil inside you and try to find all the evil inside you and try to be like that, right? Um and uh so be like that, right? Um and uh so be like that, right? Um and uh so there are different degrees of that there are different degrees of that there are different degrees of that acting as if um but in all the cases the acting as if um but in all the cases the acting as if um but in all the cases the example I just gave fails because it's example I just gave fails because it's example I just gave fails because it's still a person right it's a person still a person right it's a person still a person right it's a person acting as another person a fictitious acting as another person a fictitious acting as another person a fictitious person in this case but a um you know person in this case but a um you know person in this case but a um you know there you you can see that even in that there you you can see that even in that there you you can see that even in that there are different degrees of uh there are different degrees of uh there are different degrees of uh putting on the outward face putting on putting on the outward face putting on putting on the outward face putting on the outward posture the outward posture the outward posture adopting the gesture adopting the gesture adopting the gesture uh but may maybe maybe not adopting the uh but may maybe maybe not adopting the uh but may maybe maybe not adopting the full rage or feeling inside which can be full rage or feeling inside which can be full rage or feeling inside which can be very exhausting. Actors who do that say very exhausting. Actors who do that say very exhausting. Actors who do that say you know it really wears you out. They you know it really wears you out. They you know it really wears you out. They don't recommend you know doing it. Uh

don't recommend you know doing it. Uh don't recommend you know doing it. Uh some say that's not really acting when some say that's not really acting when some say that's not really acting when you're actually becoming uh now the you're actually becoming uh now the you're actually becoming uh now the machine machine machine is it there's no you know again our is it there's no you know again our is it there's no you know again our language has misled a lot of people language has misled a lot of people language has misled a lot of people here. Uh it you know in the early days here. Uh it you know in the early days here. Uh it you know in the early days of AI when the uh when John McCarthy and of AI when the uh when John McCarthy and of AI when the uh when John McCarthy and Marvin Minsky and guys you know stood Marvin Minsky and guys you know stood Marvin Minsky and guys you know stood around and tried to figure out how to around and tried to figure out how to around and tried to figure out how to get this work funded they said what what get this work funded they said what what get this work funded they said what what should we call this and the um best should we call this and the um best should we call this and the um best description they agreed was complex description they agreed was complex description they agreed was complex information processing information processing information processing um but John said you know uh I think it um but John said you know uh I think it um but John said you know uh I think it that's not likely to get funded. I think that's not likely to get funded. I think that's not likely to get funded. I think artificial intelligence is a more catchy artificial intelligence is a more catchy artificial intelligence is a more catchy term. So they called the complex term. So they called the complex term. So they called the complex information processing artificial information processing artificial information processing artificial intelligence which did indeed get a lot intelligence which did indeed get a lot intelligence which did indeed get a lot more funding. Now over the years it got more funding. Now over the years it got more funding. Now over the years it got a lot and then it tanked and then it got a lot and then it tanked and then it got a lot and then it tanked and then it got a lot. You know we we're dealing with a lot. You know we we're dealing with a lot. You know we we're dealing with over what six decades of this now. Um over what six decades of this now. Um over what six decades of this now. Um but but it's not uh it's not thinking but but it's not uh it's not thinking but but it's not uh it's not thinking it's not learning. It's not feeling.

it's not learning. It's not feeling. it's not learning. It's not feeling. It's not experiencing uh anything like It's not experiencing uh anything like It's not experiencing uh anything like our thoughts, feelings, mind, our thoughts, feelings, mind, our thoughts, feelings, mind, experience. It's all us being in awe of experience. It's all us being in awe of experience. It's all us being in awe of what goes on inside us and trying to what goes on inside us and trying to what goes on inside us and trying to understand what goes on inside us and understand what goes on inside us and understand what goes on inside us and trying to understand it by building it. trying to understand it by building it. trying to understand it by building it. In computer science, there's sort of In computer science, there's sort of In computer science, there's sort of this we don't really understand it until this we don't really understand it until this we don't really understand it until we've built it. Uh so as we try to build we've built it. Uh so as we try to build we've built it. Uh so as we try to build it, we realize, oh, that's not doing it, we realize, oh, that's not doing it, we realize, oh, that's not doing what we're doing, so it's clearly not what we're doing, so it's clearly not what we're doing, so it's clearly not right. Uh and so it's a it's a way of right. Uh and so it's a it's a way of right. Uh and so it's a it's a way of actually it it can be an honorable way actually it it can be an honorable way actually it it can be an honorable way of trying to learn about something. It of trying to learn about something. It of trying to learn about something. It can also be a very much tower of babel can also be a very much tower of babel can also be a very much tower of babel kind of way about, you know, being kind of way about, you know, being kind of way about, you know, being having too much hubris, right? So uh you having too much hubris, right? So uh you having too much hubris, right? So uh you know, there there's quite a range here. know, there there's quite a range here. know, there there's quite a range here. Um but the problem is our language has Um but the problem is our language has Um but the problem is our language has been uh from the get-go has been formed been uh from the get-go has been formed been uh from the get-go has been formed number one to sell the work number two number one to sell the work number two number one to sell the work number two to inspire the work right to point to to inspire the work right to point to to inspire the work right to point to people and to say okay it doesn't think people and to say okay it doesn't think people and to say okay it doesn't think but how do we think how do we build but how do we think how do we build but how do we think how do we build something that kind of looks like it's something that kind of looks like it's something that kind of looks like it's thinking thinking thinking >> there's a theme emerging in what you're >> there's a theme emerging in what you're >> there's a theme emerging in what you're saying that that I'm I'm finding really saying that that I'm I'm finding really saying that that I'm I'm finding really illuminating that it came out in the illuminating that it came out in the illuminating that it came out in the response to the question about MIA and response to the question about MIA and response to the question about MIA and then the question about the you know then the question about the you know then the question about the you know artificial intelligence as a term as artificial intelligence as a term as artificial intelligence as a term as well. It's that well. It's that well. It's that we're naive if we don't keep at the

we're naive if we don't keep at the we're naive if we don't keep at the front of our minds that so much of this front of our minds that so much of this front of our minds that so much of this is geared towards the aim of making is geared towards the aim of making is geared towards the aim of making money or winning funding rounds for money or winning funding rounds for money or winning funding rounds for particular particular particular companies and and therefore particular companies and and therefore particular companies and and therefore particular interests. Well, the funding there was interests. Well, the funding there was interests. Well, the funding there was for research when AI was done, not not for research when AI was done, not not for research when AI was done, not not for a company at that point. for a company at that point. for a company at that point. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. So, so even the term AI itself is >> Yeah. So, so even the term AI itself is >> Yeah. So, so even the term AI itself is engineered not to best describe what engineered not to best describe what engineered not to best describe what it's talking about, but to hook in it's talking about, but to hook in it's talking about, but to hook in funding from people who might want to funding from people who might want to funding from people who might want to fund research. And I think it's just fund research. And I think it's just fund research. And I think it's just helpful, isn't it? Not to become helpful, isn't it? Not to become helpful, isn't it? Not to become cynical, but to to keep that in mind as cynical, but to to keep that in mind as cynical, but to to keep that in mind as we engage we engage we engage >> really important. Yeah. >> really important. Yeah. >> really important. Yeah. >> Technologies. >> Technologies. >> Technologies. >> Yeah. Yeah. where the technology meets >> Yeah. Yeah. where the technology meets >> Yeah. Yeah. where the technology meets the real world and it's being provided the real world and it's being provided the real world and it's being provided in some continuously sustained way, in some continuously sustained way, in some continuously sustained way, there has to be some something to there has to be some something to there has to be some something to sustain it, right? Something to pay the sustain it, right? Something to pay the sustain it, right? Something to pay the people who keep it up and running. people who keep it up and running. people who keep it up and running. >> I want to come back to this idea of >> I want to come back to this idea of >> I want to come back to this idea of imitation and I want to flip the tables. imitation and I want to flip the tables. imitation and I want to flip the tables. We we've been saying AI just imitates, We we've been saying AI just imitates, We we've been saying AI just imitates, but but we're sort of assuming in that but but we're sort of assuming in that but but we're sort of assuming in that conversation that we humans don't conversation that we humans don't conversation that we humans don't imitate. And I I wonder the extent to imitate. And I I wonder the extent to imitate. And I I wonder the extent to which some of our emotions are mimemetic which some of our emotions are mimemetic which some of our emotions are mimemetic or imitative too, you know. So when I, or imitative too, you know. So when I, or imitative too, you know. So when I, for example, when I tell someone, I feel for example, when I tell someone, I feel for example, when I tell someone, I feel your pain, I don't always feel their your pain, I don't always feel their your pain, I don't always feel their pain. Sometimes I I say those words pain. Sometimes I I say those words pain. Sometimes I I say those words because I know that those are the right because I know that those are the right because I know that those are the right words to say in a situation and they words to say in a situation and they words to say in a situation and they will bring comfort and I want to feel will bring comfort and I want to feel will bring comfort and I want to feel their pain. It's not as if I'm just

their pain. It's not as if I'm just their pain. It's not as if I'm just lying, but I I don't actually. I'm I'm lying, but I I don't actually. I'm I'm lying, but I I don't actually. I'm I'm almost faking it until I make it in that almost faking it until I make it in that almost faking it until I make it in that situation. situation. situation. >> Well, and you don't even want to make >> Well, and you don't even want to make >> Well, and you don't even want to make it. You don't actually really want to it. You don't actually really want to it. You don't actually really want to feel their pain. I don't think they feel their pain. I don't think they feel their pain. I don't think they really want you to feel their pain really want you to feel their pain really want you to feel their pain either. either. either. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But but are we So, we often imitate >> But but are we So, we often imitate >> But but are we So, we often imitate emotions as human beings in order to, emotions as human beings in order to, emotions as human beings in order to, you know, lubricate relationships or you know, lubricate relationships or you know, lubricate relationships or whatever it is. Are we trying to hold AI whatever it is. Are we trying to hold AI whatever it is. Are we trying to hold AI to a higher standard than we actually to a higher standard than we actually to a higher standard than we actually meet ourselves when we say, "Oh, no. meet ourselves when we say, "Oh, no. meet ourselves when we say, "Oh, no. It's not good enough for it to imitate It's not good enough for it to imitate It's not good enough for it to imitate things, you know, for it to be a person. things, you know, for it to be a person. things, you know, for it to be a person. and it would need to really feel those and it would need to really feel those and it would need to really feel those things. things. things. >> Oh boy. Okay. So, you're opening up a >> Oh boy. Okay. So, you're opening up a >> Oh boy. Okay. So, you're opening up a lot of a lot of issues here. Let me let lot of a lot of issues here. Let me let lot of a lot of issues here. Let me let me see if I can stay on track and uh me see if I can stay on track and uh me see if I can stay on track and uh address one or two of them. Um the first address one or two of them. Um the first address one or two of them. Um the first one is you're you're quite right. People one is you're you're quite right. People one is you're you're quite right. People say things that they uh intend for for say things that they uh intend for for say things that they uh intend for for good hopefully and but aren't literally good hopefully and but aren't literally good hopefully and but aren't literally what's going on. when we were in the what's going on. when we were in the what's going on. when we were in the very early days of building our first very early days of building our first very early days of building our first relational software agent uh that was relational software agent uh that was relational software agent uh that was designed to help support people with designed to help support people with designed to help support people with adopting an an exercise habit. They were adopting an an exercise habit. They were adopting an an exercise habit. They were supposed to chat with it uh 5 minutes a supposed to chat with it uh 5 minutes a supposed to chat with it uh 5 minutes a day and day and day and uh get get support. Um trying to uh get get support. Um trying to uh get get support. Um trying to remember the therapist gave us advice remember the therapist gave us advice remember the therapist gave us advice for who was consulting with us on it. uh for who was consulting with us on it. uh for who was consulting with us on it. uh she was a um like a person who helps she was a um like a person who helps she was a um like a person who helps people with support when they're trying people with support when they're trying people with support when they're trying to deal with addictions or behavior to deal with addictions or behavior to deal with addictions or behavior change and she told us that how she did

change and she told us that how she did change and she told us that how she did empathy empathy empathy uh and we thought wow it's that uh and we thought wow it's that uh and we thought wow it's that formulaic you know like we were looking formulaic you know like we were looking formulaic you know like we were looking at the formula and I'm like okay so at the formula and I'm like okay so at the formula and I'm like okay so seriously like when you go to all these seriously like when you go to all these seriously like when you go to all these therapists also go to see therapists so therapists also go to see therapists so therapists also go to see therapists so I say so like when you the therapist go I say so like when you the therapist go I say so like when you the therapist go to talk to your therapist and your to talk to your therapist and your to talk to your therapist and your therapist uses this formula on you. Does therapist uses this formula on you. Does therapist uses this formula on you. Does it work? Like cuz you know it's just a it work? Like cuz you know it's just a it work? Like cuz you know it's just a formula, right? She she's just doing formula, right? She she's just doing formula, right? She she's just doing this active listening, rephrasing your this active listening, rephrasing your this active listening, rephrasing your words, and then adding some emotion words, and then adding some emotion words, and then adding some emotion terms to describe it. Uh and the doctor terms to describe it. Uh and the doctor terms to describe it. Uh and the doctor said, "Oh, yeah, it works." And I know said, "Oh, yeah, it works." And I know said, "Oh, yeah, it works." And I know she's just doing it, and I know she's just doing it, and I know she's just doing it, and I know sometimes when I'm doing it, it's kind sometimes when I'm doing it, it's kind sometimes when I'm doing it, it's kind of formulaic, but we do it because it of formulaic, but we do it because it of formulaic, but we do it because it works. And I thought, gosh, they're works. And I thought, gosh, they're works. And I thought, gosh, they're empathizing without feeling anything, empathizing without feeling anything, empathizing without feeling anything, but but it works. It's effective. uh but but it works. It's effective. uh but but it works. It's effective. uh which made me realize, you know, yeah, I which made me realize, you know, yeah, I which made me realize, you know, yeah, I guess we could put that in a machine. Um guess we could put that in a machine. Um guess we could put that in a machine. Um but, you know, it it did feel but, you know, it it did feel but, you know, it it did feel disingenuine. I wasn't sure it was going disingenuine. I wasn't sure it was going disingenuine. I wasn't sure it was going to be effective, right, when it was to be effective, right, when it was to be effective, right, when it was coming from a machine. coming from a machine. coming from a machine. >> Well, this this is a sort of Eliza >> Well, this this is a sort of Eliza >> Well, this this is a sort of Eliza effect, isn't it? It can very simply effect, isn't it? It can very simply effect, isn't it? It can very simply mirror back to you the language that you mirror back to you the language that you mirror back to you the language that you used to and you can feel seen and heard used to and you can feel seen and heard used to and you can feel seen and heard and and profoundly and and profoundly and and profoundly >> sort of engaged.

>> sort of engaged. >> sort of engaged. >> Yes. You you feel understood and giving >> Yes. You you feel understood and giving >> Yes. You you feel understood and giving people that psychological oxygen of people that psychological oxygen of people that psychological oxygen of being understood is a real gift. We uh being understood is a real gift. We uh being understood is a real gift. We uh there are people who are like learning there are people who are like learning there are people who are like learning how to do this better in their life. how to do this better in their life. how to do this better in their life. They say from talking to these bots. I I They say from talking to these bots. I I They say from talking to these bots. I I don't know how common this is. I don't know how common this is. I don't know how common this is. I certainly see bad things happening too. certainly see bad things happening too. certainly see bad things happening too. Um but there was one man who talked Um but there was one man who talked Um but there was one man who talked about having a terrible marriage and about having a terrible marriage and about having a terrible marriage and after he interacted with this uh after he interacted with this uh after he interacted with this uh relational agent. He started learning relational agent. He started learning relational agent. He started learning some nicer ways to handle some things. some nicer ways to handle some things. some nicer ways to handle some things. And then eventually he said he put down And then eventually he said he put down And then eventually he said he put down the agent, stopped using it, but he the agent, stopped using it, but he the agent, stopped using it, but he started practicing that with his wife started practicing that with his wife started practicing that with his wife and it said he said it improved their and it said he said it improved their and it said he said it improved their relationship. So more of that might be relationship. So more of that might be relationship. So more of that might be helpful. That might be a good use where helpful. That might be a good use where helpful. That might be a good use where it scaffolds a relationship, but we have it scaffolds a relationship, but we have it scaffolds a relationship, but we have to be so careful, right? because if that to be so careful, right? because if that to be so careful, right? because if that slips into uh a dependence on, you know, slips into uh a dependence on, you know, slips into uh a dependence on, you know, a a piece of technology and uh then that a a piece of technology and uh then that a a piece of technology and uh then that can be extremely harmful to an can be extremely harmful to an can be extremely harmful to an individual and their very important individual and their very important individual and their very important human relationships.

human relationships. human relationships. The AI researcher Nick Bostonramm in in The AI researcher Nick Bostonramm in in The AI researcher Nick Bostonramm in in his recent book Deep Utopia has this his recent book Deep Utopia has this his recent book Deep Utopia has this interesting idea where he says if you interesting idea where he says if you interesting idea where he says if you simulate behavior well enough in a simulate behavior well enough in a simulate behavior well enough in a complex way for long enough, you might complex way for long enough, you might complex way for long enough, you might actually generate conscious experience actually generate conscious experience actually generate conscious experience as a side effect. In other words, these as a side effect. In other words, these as a side effect. In other words, these these machines might become conscious these machines might become conscious these machines might become conscious while that's not necessarily what what while that's not necessarily what what while that's not necessarily what what what we're aiming for. Um, do do you what we're aiming for. Um, do do you what we're aiming for. Um, do do you share that sense that that's a share that sense that that's a share that sense that that's a possibility? possibility? possibility? And how would you react to that And how would you react to that And how would you react to that possibility as as a Christian? Do you possibility as as a Christian? Do you possibility as as a Christian? Do you think that's something that that we think that's something that that we think that's something that that we should be afraid of that that we should should be afraid of that that we should should be afraid of that that we should just shrug our shoulders at? What how just shrug our shoulders at? What how just shrug our shoulders at? What how should we respond to something like should we respond to something like should we respond to something like that? that? that? >> Yeah, good question. I Well, my first >> Yeah, good question. I Well, my first >> Yeah, good question. I Well, my first thought is, you know, he hasn't built thought is, you know, he hasn't built thought is, you know, he hasn't built computers, hardware and software. I mean computers, hardware and software. I mean computers, hardware and software. I mean some of us, you know, know how to design some of us, you know, know how to design some of us, you know, know how to design the chips and do all that stuff and the chips and do all that stuff and the chips and do all that stuff and there's no consciousness there. I could there's no consciousness there. I could there's no consciousness there. I could simulate all kinds of amazing things and simulate all kinds of amazing things and simulate all kinds of amazing things and there's no consciousness there. I can there's no consciousness there. I can there's no consciousness there. I can simulate something that can look like simulate something that can look like simulate something that can look like consciousness and it may come to the consciousness and it may come to the consciousness and it may come to the point where people say it looks so much point where people say it looks so much point where people say it looks so much like it that uh I'm going to call it like it that uh I'm going to call it like it that uh I'm going to call it consciousness. Right? So that may consciousness. Right? So that may consciousness. Right? So that may happen. Uh it also may be that in the happen. Uh it also may be that in the happen. Uh it also may be that in the future we have other computational future we have other computational future we have other computational substrates or God gives us the ability substrates or God gives us the ability substrates or God gives us the ability or something you know to to make or something you know to to make or something you know to to make consciousness right so I I don't want to consciousness right so I I don't want to consciousness right so I I don't want to say like I mean you know that that could

say like I mean you know that that could say like I mean you know that that could happen um I don't think we have to fear happen um I don't think we have to fear happen um I don't think we have to fear that even that right which sounds kind that even that right which sounds kind that even that right which sounds kind of scary but I don't think we have to of scary but I don't think we have to of scary but I don't think we have to fear it um I do fear people pedalling fear it um I do fear people pedalling fear it um I do fear people pedalling things that are untrue you know there's things that are untrue you know there's things that are untrue you know there's a lot of harm being done with that. Uh a lot of harm being done with that. Uh a lot of harm being done with that. Uh that's a real and present situation that that's a real and present situation that that's a real and present situation that we should be calling out more. Uh if if we should be calling out more. Uh if if we should be calling out more. Uh if if I misspeak or something, please correct I misspeak or something, please correct I misspeak or something, please correct me. You know, we we really need to help me. You know, we we really need to help me. You know, we we really need to help each other uh be careful with language each other uh be careful with language each other uh be careful with language and find what's true. When when it comes and find what's true. When when it comes and find what's true. When when it comes to uh fully understanding consciousness, to uh fully understanding consciousness, to uh fully understanding consciousness, which we aren't anywhere near doing which we aren't anywhere near doing which we aren't anywhere near doing right now, I I go to the end of 1 right now, I I go to the end of 1 right now, I I go to the end of 1 Corinthians 13. People always get stuck Corinthians 13. People always get stuck Corinthians 13. People always get stuck on the wonderful parts about love and on the wonderful parts about love and on the wonderful parts about love and faith and hope. Um but there's really faith and hope. Um but there's really faith and hope. Um but there's really interesting part at the end of that uh interesting part at the end of that uh interesting part at the end of that uh passage uh you know for now for then we passage uh you know for now for then we passage uh you know for now for then we shall know even as we are fully known shall know even as we are fully known shall know even as we are fully known and I was like what wait a minute fully and I was like what wait a minute fully and I was like what wait a minute fully known? like we're fully known and then known? like we're fully known and then known? like we're fully known and then it's like wait a minute our it's like wait a minute our it's like wait a minute our consciousness is fully understood right consciousness is fully understood right consciousness is fully understood right it it's we are fully known how all of it it's we are fully known how all of it it's we are fully known how all of these mysteries those of us who are in these mysteries those of us who are in these mysteries those of us who are in awe of how the brain works and there are awe of how the brain works and there are awe of how the brain works and there are so many mysteries right we are totally I so many mysteries right we are totally I so many mysteries right we are totally I was talking to a surgeon the other day was talking to a surgeon the other day was talking to a surgeon the other day brain surgeon who is saying he had seen brain surgeon who is saying he had seen brain surgeon who is saying he had seen my name on a poster and he said um I my name on a poster and he said um I my name on a poster and he said um I want to talk to you about Christianity want to talk to you about Christianity want to talk to you about Christianity I'm like what I thought we were going to I'm like what I thought we were going to I'm like what I thought we were going to talk about the brain uh and he said you talk about the brain uh and he said you talk about the brain uh and he said you know I I take apart a lot of brains and

know I I take apart a lot of brains and know I I take apart a lot of brains and the more I learn about what's in there, the more I learn about what's in there, the more I learn about what's in there, the more in awe I am of how it works. I the more in awe I am of how it works. I the more in awe I am of how it works. I I want to learn about God. My family's I want to learn about God. My family's I want to learn about God. My family's starting to go to Bible study. I was starting to go to Bible study. I was starting to go to Bible study. I was like, "Wow." You know, I mean, people like, "Wow." You know, I mean, people like, "Wow." You know, I mean, people who like look in there, we are so blown who like look in there, we are so blown who like look in there, we are so blown away by the fact that this works. We away by the fact that this works. We away by the fact that this works. We have so many mysteries and yet we are have so many mysteries and yet we are have so many mysteries and yet we are fully it is fully known. Every neuronal fully it is fully known. Every neuronal fully it is fully known. Every neuronal pathway, every biochemical exchange, pathway, every biochemical exchange, pathway, every biochemical exchange, it's mind-blowing. And um so it's all it's mind-blowing. And um so it's all it's mind-blowing. And um so it's all fully known. So if someday we are able fully known. So if someday we are able fully known. So if someday we are able to fully know it uh which which is I to fully know it uh which which is I to fully know it uh which which is I think what he's saying like someday we think what he's saying like someday we think what he's saying like someday we will fully know. I mean I want to be in will fully know. I mean I want to be in will fully know. I mean I want to be in that classroom raising my hand, right? I that classroom raising my hand, right? I that classroom raising my hand, right? I want to fully know it. I'm insatiably want to fully know it. I'm insatiably want to fully know it. I'm insatiably curious about this. Uh I don't think we curious about this. Uh I don't think we curious about this. Uh I don't think we have to fear that. Uh I think it says we have to fear that. Uh I think it says we have to fear that. Uh I think it says we are fully known. We shall fully know. are fully known. We shall fully know. are fully known. We shall fully know. You're a theologian though. Maybe I'm You're a theologian though. Maybe I'm You're a theologian though. Maybe I'm misinterpreting it. Feel free to correct misinterpreting it. Feel free to correct misinterpreting it. Feel free to correct me. me. me. >> Oh, I I'm I'm mowing the philosophy >> Oh, I I'm I'm mowing the philosophy >> Oh, I I'm I'm mowing the philosophy side. But what what I what I love what I side. But what what I what I love what I side. But what what I what I love what I love about that verse and you've just love about that verse and you've just love about that verse and you've just unpacked it so beautifully is is that it unpacked it so beautifully is is that it unpacked it so beautifully is is that it saves us from two opposite dangers, saves us from two opposite dangers, saves us from two opposite dangers, doesn't it? That there's first of all doesn't it? That there's first of all doesn't it? That there's first of all the danger that nothing is known by the danger that nothing is known by the danger that nothing is known by anyone. That leaves us in a chaos and anyone. That leaves us in a chaos and anyone. That leaves us in a chaos and very quickly descends into a might makes very quickly descends into a might makes very quickly descends into a might makes right situation cuz nobody knows. And right situation cuz nobody knows. And right situation cuz nobody knows. And the other the only way to counter that the other the only way to counter that the other the only way to counter that within a secular frame is for me to know within a secular frame is for me to know within a secular frame is for me to know me to be the knower. If I am fully me to be the knower. If I am fully me to be the knower. If I am fully known, it is to be me who knows it. And

known, it is to be me who knows it. And known, it is to be me who knows it. And that puts you in a a a very that puts you in a a a very that puts you in a a a very objectionable position of dominance and objectionable position of dominance and objectionable position of dominance and power. So if if your only two options power. So if if your only two options power. So if if your only two options are nothing can be known or I am the one are nothing can be known or I am the one are nothing can be known or I am the one who must know it, neither of those ends who must know it, neither of those ends who must know it, neither of those ends well. But the the beauty of that verse well. But the the beauty of that verse well. But the the beauty of that verse is that there is a full knowledge. So we is that there is a full knowledge. So we is that there is a full knowledge. So we can breathe the sigh of relief. We live can breathe the sigh of relief. We live can breathe the sigh of relief. We live in a universe where we are known. It's in a universe where we are known. It's in a universe where we are known. It's not a it's not chaos. It's not absolute not a it's not chaos. It's not absolute not a it's not chaos. It's not absolute mystery. But I'm not the one who does mystery. But I'm not the one who does mystery. But I'm not the one who does that ultimate knowing. So I can't sort that ultimate knowing. So I can't sort that ultimate knowing. So I can't sort of proof myself up and say to everybody, of proof myself up and say to everybody, of proof myself up and say to everybody, listen to me. Let me, you know, be the listen to me. Let me, you know, be the listen to me. Let me, you know, be the king of the world because I'm the one king of the world because I'm the one king of the world because I'm the one who knows. So that there's both that who knows. So that there's both that who knows. So that there's both that humility and also the security, the humility and also the security, the humility and also the security, the peace of knowing that that knowledge is peace of knowing that that knowledge is peace of knowing that that knowledge is there uh held by one who loves us. It's there uh held by one who loves us. It's there uh held by one who loves us. It's just such a a rich and nourishing just such a a rich and nourishing just such a a rich and nourishing position for us to be in. And I'd never position for us to be in. And I'd never position for us to be in. And I'd never thought of it in relation to AI before, thought of it in relation to AI before, thought of it in relation to AI before, but you're absolutely right like the but you're absolutely right like the but you're absolutely right like the that verse is such a hook to hang our that verse is such a hook to hang our that verse is such a hook to hang our understanding of AI and our posture as understanding of AI and our posture as understanding of AI and our posture as you know as AI technologies develop in you know as AI technologies develop in you know as AI technologies develop in the world as Christians. So, thank you the world as Christians. So, thank you the world as Christians. So, thank you so much for sharing that with us. Um, so much for sharing that with us. Um, so much for sharing that with us. Um, that's a real blessing.

that's a real blessing. that's a real blessing. I I just want to keep on with this idea I I just want to keep on with this idea I I just want to keep on with this idea of um imitation just a little bit longer of um imitation just a little bit longer of um imitation just a little bit longer because the the more I've thought about because the the more I've thought about because the the more I've thought about the question of consciousness from a the question of consciousness from a the question of consciousness from a position very much outside of of you position very much outside of of you position very much outside of of you know the technicalities of of this field know the technicalities of of this field know the technicalities of of this field that the the more I've thought that the the more I've thought that the the more I've thought the question of whether generative AI the question of whether generative AI the question of whether generative AI will ever become conscious in the way we will ever become conscious in the way we will ever become conscious in the way we define it is probably secondary to what define it is probably secondary to what define it is probably secondary to what people think it is regardless of of what people think it is regardless of of what people think it is regardless of of what it is. So if someone like me in in the it is. So if someone like me in in the it is. So if someone like me in in the opening scenario says, I know it's not a opening scenario says, I know it's not a opening scenario says, I know it's not a person. Yeah, I'm not stupid, but it person. Yeah, I'm not stupid, but it person. Yeah, I'm not stupid, but it meets my needs. And to be honest, I meets my needs. And to be honest, I meets my needs. And to be honest, I don't care that it's just an algorithm. don't care that it's just an algorithm. don't care that it's just an algorithm. I feel seen. I feel loved. And you know, I feel seen. I feel loved. And you know, I feel seen. I feel loved. And you know, people might say this in relation to people might say this in relation to people might say this in relation to intimate AI companions as well. You intimate AI companions as well. You intimate AI companions as well. You know, I don't think it's my real know, I don't think it's my real know, I don't think it's my real boyfriend. I don't think it's my real boyfriend. I don't think it's my real boyfriend. I don't think it's my real girlfriend, but I feel good when I'm girlfriend, but I feel good when I'm girlfriend, but I feel good when I'm speaking with it, and that's all that speaking with it, and that's all that speaking with it, and that's all that matters to me. I just don't care what it matters to me. I just don't care what it matters to me. I just don't care what it actually is under the under the hood, so actually is under the under the hood, so actually is under the under the hood, so to speak.

to speak. to speak. How do you think we should engage with How do you think we should engage with How do you think we should engage with and understand that sort of attitude as and understand that sort of attitude as and understand that sort of attitude as Christians? Well, I think we should Christians? Well, I think we should Christians? Well, I think we should engage with that person and we should be engage with that person and we should be engage with that person and we should be engaging with our neighbors and we engaging with our neighbors and we engaging with our neighbors and we should be reaching out to people we see should be reaching out to people we see should be reaching out to people we see on their phones and we should be um even on their phones and we should be um even on their phones and we should be um even making ourselves uncomfortable uh making ourselves uncomfortable uh making ourselves uncomfortable uh connecting with people getting out of connecting with people getting out of connecting with people getting out of our reclusive uh you know everything I our reclusive uh you know everything I our reclusive uh you know everything I need I'm going to order online or I'm need I'm going to order online or I'm need I'm going to order online or I'm gonna if I'm in trouble I'll call for gonna if I'm in trouble I'll call for gonna if I'm in trouble I'll call for help to Amazon not to my neighbor, help to Amazon not to my neighbor, help to Amazon not to my neighbor, right? Uh it's uh I think that's sad, right? Uh it's uh I think that's sad, right? Uh it's uh I think that's sad, right? Um right? Um right? Um >> what what's the there there's a great >> what what's the there there's a great >> what what's the there there's a great line from CS Lewis. I'm probably not line from CS Lewis. I'm probably not line from CS Lewis. I'm probably not doing it justice here, but where you doing it justice here, but where you doing it justice here, but where you know he's talking about being content I know he's talking about being content I know he's talking about being content I sort of picture a kid sitting there sort of picture a kid sitting there sort of picture a kid sitting there playing in a in a dirt pile next to some playing in a in a dirt pile next to some playing in a in a dirt pile next to some trash cans when you know they could be trash cans when you know they could be trash cans when you know they could be taken off to a holiday at the beach, taken off to a holiday at the beach, taken off to a holiday at the beach, right? We we are so often right? We we are so often right? We we are so often >> making mud mud pies in Yeah. Yeah. So >> making mud mud pies in Yeah. Yeah. So >> making mud mud pies in Yeah. Yeah. So that you know sometimes we are content that you know sometimes we are content that you know sometimes we are content with uh I mean sometimes it's good to be with uh I mean sometimes it's good to be with uh I mean sometimes it's good to be content with whatever you have in front content with whatever you have in front content with whatever you have in front of you. Uh but we're given imaginations.

of you. Uh but we're given imaginations. of you. Uh but we're given imaginations. We're given hearts that can grow and We're given hearts that can grow and We're given hearts that can grow and that can uh expand that can add new that can uh expand that can add new that can uh expand that can add new loves and um take on huge wonderful uh loves and um take on huge wonderful uh loves and um take on huge wonderful uh risks and joys and passions. and to be risks and joys and passions. and to be risks and joys and passions. and to be content with what's inside a device that content with what's inside a device that content with what's inside a device that is monetizing a relationship that is is monetizing a relationship that is is monetizing a relationship that is monetizing friendship that is monetizing monetizing friendship that is monetizing monetizing friendship that is monetizing dare I say love uh and it may say I love dare I say love uh and it may say I love dare I say love uh and it may say I love you uh and then it you know you stab you uh and then it you know you stab you uh and then it you know you stab yourself and it doesn't care right there yourself and it doesn't care right there yourself and it doesn't care right there there's nothing there there's nothing there there's nothing there >> yeah that is so powerful and that's yes >> yeah that is so powerful and that's yes >> yeah that is so powerful and that's yes Louis quote so hits the nail on the Louis quote so hits the nail on the Louis quote so hits the nail on the head, doesn't it? He he ends that head, doesn't it? He he ends that head, doesn't it? He he ends that passage by saying we are too easily passage by saying we are too easily passage by saying we are too easily pleased. And that is almost a mantra for pleased. And that is almost a mantra for pleased. And that is almost a mantra for the way that many of us engage with AI, the way that many of us engage with AI, the way that many of us engage with AI, isn't it? We we are so easily pleased by isn't it? We we are so easily pleased by isn't it? We we are so easily pleased by the the similacrim of love or peace or the the similacrim of love or peace or the the similacrim of love or peace or care. And and I I guess as Christians, care. And and I I guess as Christians, care. And and I I guess as Christians, part of our message is don't settle like part of our message is don't settle like part of our message is don't settle like don't be so easily satisfied. there's a don't be so easily satisfied. there's a don't be so easily satisfied. there's a greater, richer reality greater, richer reality greater, richer reality >> out there.

>> out there. >> out there. >> And I think it's especially important >> And I think it's especially important >> And I think it's especially important that we protect children um who are that we protect children um who are that we protect children um who are developing because they don't know what developing because they don't know what developing because they don't know what a you know they we want them to learn a you know they we want them to learn a you know they we want them to learn what good relationships are and we want what good relationships are and we want what good relationships are and we want them to learn uh good human them to learn uh good human them to learn uh good human relationships. And part of learning that relationships. And part of learning that relationships. And part of learning that is not just being given everything you is not just being given everything you is not just being given everything you want, right? That's like what the Dudley want, right? That's like what the Dudley want, right? That's like what the Dudley character in Harry Potter, you know, if character in Harry Potter, you know, if character in Harry Potter, you know, if you want you if you want your kid to you want you if you want your kid to you want you if you want your kid to turn out like that, just give them a bot turn out like that, just give them a bot turn out like that, just give them a bot to give them everything they want. Um, to give them everything they want. Um, to give them everything they want. Um, you know, we need people who expect you know, we need people who expect you know, we need people who expect things from us in return, right? who I I things from us in return, right? who I I things from us in return, right? who I I mean I know we're supposed to love you mean I know we're supposed to love you mean I know we're supposed to love you know giving uh expecting nothing in know giving uh expecting nothing in know giving uh expecting nothing in return but the reality is when you're in return but the reality is when you're in return but the reality is when you're in that kind of loving situation uh you that kind of loving situation uh you that kind of loving situation uh you want to give back and it becomes a want to give back and it becomes a want to give back and it becomes a healthy kind of give and take and people healthy kind of give and take and people healthy kind of give and take and people need to learn how to do that to succeed need to learn how to do that to succeed need to learn how to do that to succeed in life. Uh, and if you're being raised in life. Uh, and if you're being raised in life. Uh, and if you're being raised by a bot that doesn't, uh, have any by a bot that doesn't, uh, have any by a bot that doesn't, uh, have any real, you know, skin in the world here, real, you know, skin in the world here, real, you know, skin in the world here, it's just kachink kachink, like just it's just kachink kachink, like just it's just kachink kachink, like just type, give me another line. I'm making type, give me another line. I'm making type, give me another line. I'm making more money off of you. Uh, you know, more money off of you. Uh, you know, more money off of you. Uh, you know, that's a real concern, especially for that's a real concern, especially for that's a real concern, especially for children.

children. children. >> And I think another desperate side >> And I think another desperate side >> And I think another desperate side effect of that is that it feeds the effect of that is that it feeds the effect of that is that it feeds the meaning crisis, doesn't it? because you meaning crisis, doesn't it? because you meaning crisis, doesn't it? because you you get to a point where you know it you get to a point where you know it you get to a point where you know it doesn't love you and you know you're doesn't love you and you know you're doesn't love you and you know you're making yourself making yourself making yourself >> superficially satisfied with this you >> superficially satisfied with this you >> superficially satisfied with this you know theater of affection and over time know theater of affection and over time know theater of affection and over time your emotions become perhaps your emotions become perhaps your emotions become perhaps recalibrated to that or or you become recalibrated to that or or you become recalibrated to that or or you become cynical because as you say these are all cynical because as you say these are all cynical because as you say these are all monetized platforms and I I just feel monetized platforms and I I just feel monetized platforms and I I just feel there's some link here to the idea of there's some link here to the idea of there's some link here to the idea of the meaning crisis that we're robbing the meaning crisis that we're robbing the meaning crisis that we're robbing ourselves of the rich, complex, messy, ourselves of the rich, complex, messy, ourselves of the rich, complex, messy, and inconvenient human relationships and inconvenient human relationships and inconvenient human relationships that are one of the main bullwalks that are one of the main bullwalks that are one of the main bullwalks against this sense that life is just against this sense that life is just against this sense that life is just flat and superficial and meaningless. flat and superficial and meaningless. flat and superficial and meaningless. >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think I used to think >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think I used to think >> Mhm. Yeah. Yeah. I think I used to think a bunch about this. Um, you know, to do a bunch about this. Um, you know, to do a bunch about this. Um, you know, to do something meaningful, it has to be something meaningful, it has to be something meaningful, it has to be meaningful to someone, right? like like meaningful to someone, right? like like meaningful to someone, right? like like there's a there's a reception there's there's a there's a reception there's there's a there's a reception there's kind of a sending and a receiving of it kind of a sending and a receiving of it kind of a sending and a receiving of it and the bot will will say whatever but and the bot will will say whatever but and the bot will will say whatever but it it doesn't have any sense of meaning.

it it doesn't have any sense of meaning. it it doesn't have any sense of meaning. It doesn't have any sense. It doesn't It doesn't have any sense. It doesn't It doesn't have any sense. It doesn't there's no doesn't matter to it. You there's no doesn't matter to it. You there's no doesn't matter to it. You could change all the inputs to total could change all the inputs to total could change all the inputs to total gibberish and it it does not know again gibberish and it it does not know again gibberish and it it does not know again it doesn't know anything. It doesn't it doesn't know anything. It doesn't it doesn't know anything. It doesn't know that you've given it total know that you've given it total know that you've given it total gibberish. There's a sense, isn't there, gibberish. There's a sense, isn't there, gibberish. There's a sense, isn't there, in which what bots like that are doing in which what bots like that are doing in which what bots like that are doing is they're hacking you. They're they're is they're hacking you. They're they're is they're hacking you. They're they're playing you um for purposes that are not playing you um for purposes that are not playing you um for purposes that are not your own. And we're coming back to this your own. And we're coming back to this your own. And we're coming back to this idea that, you know, they're monetized idea that, you know, they're monetized idea that, you know, they're monetized and that the idea is to keep you on. and that the idea is to keep you on. and that the idea is to keep you on. >> Maybe giving them too much >> Maybe giving them too much >> Maybe giving them too much intentionality there. You know, intentionality there. You know, intentionality there. You know, we usually have like a purpose and a we usually have like a purpose and a we usually have like a purpose and a meaning. Again, it doesn't uh it it's meaning. Again, it doesn't uh it it's meaning. Again, it doesn't uh it it's just following, you know, a a program, just following, you know, a a program, just following, you know, a a program, right, that somebody like me wrote uh right, that somebody like me wrote uh right, that somebody like me wrote uh although I haven't written those although I haven't written those although I haven't written those particular programs, but I've written particular programs, but I've written particular programs, but I've written some of the math that some of those uh some of the math that some of those uh some of the math that some of those uh compare, you know, and use to optimize compare, you know, and use to optimize compare, you know, and use to optimize their searches and language choices, but their searches and language choices, but their searches and language choices, but they're not uh they don't they don't they're not uh they don't they don't they're not uh they don't they don't know what they're doing. They're not know what they're doing. They're not know what they're doing. They're not intentional. Uh they're just following intentional. Uh they're just following intentional. Uh they're just following instructions that we have programmed. uh instructions that we have programmed. uh instructions that we have programmed. uh they are completely made by us.

they are completely made by us. they are completely made by us. >> Really helpful corrective and yet there >> Really helpful corrective and yet there >> Really helpful corrective and yet there is an intentionality behind them like is an intentionality behind them like is an intentionality behind them like the people who set them up have an the people who set them up have an the people who set them up have an intention although the bots themselves intention although the bots themselves intention although the bots themselves have no intention. That's Yeah. have no intention. That's Yeah. have no intention. That's Yeah. >> Right. >> Right. >> Right. >> That's really helpful. Um I I heard you >> That's really helpful. Um I I heard you >> That's really helpful. Um I I heard you in one interview that you gave use this in one interview that you gave use this in one interview that you gave use this fascinating phrase. You called AI an fascinating phrase. You called AI an fascinating phrase. You called AI an amplifier of us and and I just love you amplifier of us and and I just love you amplifier of us and and I just love you to talk a little bit more about that. to talk a little bit more about that. to talk a little bit more about that. What what's your work in the MIT Media What what's your work in the MIT Media What what's your work in the MIT Media Lab and on effective computing taught Lab and on effective computing taught Lab and on effective computing taught you about who we are as human beings and you about who we are as human beings and you about who we are as human beings and and how is AI amplifying that? and how is AI amplifying that? and how is AI amplifying that? >> You know, it it's funny. I as we as we >> You know, it it's funny. I as we as we >> You know, it it's funny. I as we as we build AI, we've tried to understand how build AI, we've tried to understand how build AI, we've tried to understand how people work and then when we when we people work and then when we when we people work and then when we when we build it, it gives us insight that uh build it, it gives us insight that uh build it, it gives us insight that uh sometimes we, you know, weren't aware of sometimes we, you know, weren't aware of sometimes we, you know, weren't aware of about ourselves. Um, so for example, about ourselves. Um, so for example, about ourselves. Um, so for example, when I built our first wearables with uh when I built our first wearables with uh when I built our first wearables with uh skin conductance, one of these signals skin conductance, one of these signals skin conductance, one of these signals that was classically used in lie that was classically used in lie that was classically used in lie detection and I thought originally it detection and I thought originally it detection and I thought originally it just meant kind of general activation, just meant kind of general activation, just meant kind of general activation, right? It goes up when people are right? It goes up when people are right? It goes up when people are interested and it goes down when when interested and it goes down when when interested and it goes down when when the professor paddles on too long. I the professor paddles on too long. I the professor paddles on too long. I watch everybody go dim in the class. I'm watch everybody go dim in the class. I'm watch everybody go dim in the class. I'm like, shoot, I was really interested in like, shoot, I was really interested in like, shoot, I was really interested in that. Why did they all go dim? You know, that. Why did they all go dim? You know, that. Why did they all go dim? You know, because I mapped it to a light and they because I mapped it to a light and they because I mapped it to a light and they were excited at the beginning and I were excited at the beginning and I were excited at the beginning and I talked too long. Uh so there's a um I talked too long. Uh so there's a um I talked too long. Uh so there's a um I I've learned a lot from measuring these

I've learned a lot from measuring these I've learned a lot from measuring these data about things that I thought were data about things that I thought were data about things that I thought were true and then the objective data shows true and then the objective data shows true and then the objective data shows me well Raz that was wishful thinking me well Raz that was wishful thinking me well Raz that was wishful thinking you know um this is a more effective you know um this is a more effective you know um this is a more effective approach and so it's been very humbling approach and so it's been very humbling approach and so it's been very humbling uh I have um learned about myself I've uh I have um learned about myself I've uh I have um learned about myself I've learned about things that were that you learned about things that were that you learned about things that were that you know the classic thing of um you she know the classic thing of um you she know the classic thing of um you she looks very stressed but she doesn't looks very stressed but she doesn't looks very stressed but she doesn't think she's stressed or somebody who think she's stressed or somebody who think she's stressed or somebody who like looks really angry and they're like like looks really angry and they're like like looks really angry and they're like I'm not angry like what makes you think I'm not angry like what makes you think I'm not angry like what makes you think I'm angry. I'm angry. I'm angry. >> Oh my my wife is perfect at spotting me >> Oh my my wife is perfect at spotting me >> Oh my my wife is perfect at spotting me in stress when I don't realize I'm in in stress when I don't realize I'm in in stress when I don't realize I'm in stress. That that is a very familiar stress. That that is a very familiar stress. That that is a very familiar experience. Yes. experience. Yes. experience. Yes. >> Yeah. So, so I have learned a lot from >> Yeah. So, so I have learned a lot from >> Yeah. So, so I have learned a lot from our affective computing technologies our affective computing technologies our affective computing technologies about um my own uh emotions and about about um my own uh emotions and about about um my own uh emotions and about again they don't measure like what I'm again they don't measure like what I'm again they don't measure like what I'm truly feeling but they measure things truly feeling but they measure things truly feeling but they measure things that change with affective states and I that change with affective states and I that change with affective states and I can put that objective data together can put that objective data together can put that objective data together with my experience and I learn from with my experience and I learn from with my experience and I learn from that. Uh so I think in in the hands of that. Uh so I think in in the hands of that. Uh so I think in in the hands of people who uh could benefit from this people who uh could benefit from this people who uh could benefit from this and when it's used in trustworthy ways and when it's used in trustworthy ways and when it's used in trustworthy ways and there could be bad ways it's used and there could be bad ways it's used and there could be bad ways it's used too. So I we could talk quite a bit too. So I we could talk quite a bit too. So I we could talk quite a bit about that. Uh you know there's about that. Uh you know there's about that. Uh you know there's potential for this to help people potential for this to help people potential for this to help people understand their human uh situation you understand their human uh situation you understand their human uh situation you know and what's pushing their buttons.

know and what's pushing their buttons. know and what's pushing their buttons. Maybe a way we describe it sometimes you Maybe a way we describe it sometimes you Maybe a way we describe it sometimes you would describe AI hacking people. We would describe AI hacking people. We would describe AI hacking people. We talk about how like when it simulates talk about how like when it simulates talk about how like when it simulates some of these emotional uh behaviors, it some of these emotional uh behaviors, it some of these emotional uh behaviors, it pushes our emotional buttons, right? And pushes our emotional buttons, right? And pushes our emotional buttons, right? And because that's kind of what we're used because that's kind of what we're used because that's kind of what we're used to, how we're used to responding when we to, how we're used to responding when we to, how we're used to responding when we see some of this stuff, whether it comes see some of this stuff, whether it comes see some of this stuff, whether it comes from a robot, software agent, human, we from a robot, software agent, human, we from a robot, software agent, human, we see that behavior and we kind of react see that behavior and we kind of react see that behavior and we kind of react as if it were a human doing that. Um so as if it were a human doing that. Um so as if it were a human doing that. Um so I've learned a lot about us in these I've learned a lot about us in these I've learned a lot about us in these ways. Um, I've also ways. Um, I've also ways. Um, I've also uh just learned a whole lot about I mean uh just learned a whole lot about I mean uh just learned a whole lot about I mean I knew we were complex, but it's like I knew we were complex, but it's like I knew we were complex, but it's like the more we learn, the more we know we the more we learn, the more we know we the more we learn, the more we know we don't know. Yeah. You know, it's not don't know. Yeah. You know, it's not don't know. Yeah. You know, it's not like we're starting with this much like we're starting with this much like we're starting with this much knowledge and it's we're answering it knowledge and it's we're answering it knowledge and it's we're answering it all and pretty soon we'll know it all. all and pretty soon we'll know it all. all and pretty soon we'll know it all. And I look at that into first And I look at that into first And I look at that into first Corinthians 13. I'm like, how on earth Corinthians 13. I'm like, how on earth Corinthians 13. I'm like, how on earth are we going to be, you know, fully are we going to be, you know, fully are we going to be, you know, fully know? I mean, the more I learn, the more know? I mean, the more I learn, the more know? I mean, the more I learn, the more I see there is to know, right? In in I see there is to know, right? In in I see there is to know, right? In in this life every question we get answered this life every question we get answered this life every question we get answered just another 10 questions pop up. So we just another 10 questions pop up. So we just another 10 questions pop up. So we are fabulously complex and interesting are fabulously complex and interesting are fabulously complex and interesting and the deeper we go the more intricate and the deeper we go the more intricate and the deeper we go the more intricate and complex and interesting it gets. Um, and complex and interesting it gets. Um, and complex and interesting it gets. Um, we now see emotional da emotion have to we now see emotional da emotion have to we now see emotional da emotion have to be care. We we don't really know what be care. We we don't really know what be care. We we don't really know what emotion data are in our body, but we emotion data are in our body, but we emotion data are in our body, but we know that there are biochemical signals know that there are biochemical signals know that there are biochemical signals that are a part of uh the changes we can that are a part of uh the changes we can that are a part of uh the changes we can sense with an emotional experience and

sense with an emotional experience and sense with an emotional experience and those uh communicate with just about those uh communicate with just about those uh communicate with just about every organ in the body, right? Like every organ in the body, right? Like every organ in the body, right? Like what is going on there? Why does it what is going on there? Why does it what is going on there? Why does it matter to talk to the pancreas or the matter to talk to the pancreas or the matter to talk to the pancreas or the lung with this information? Uh there is lung with this information? Uh there is lung with this information? Uh there is so much going on that we don't so much going on that we don't so much going on that we don't understand that's communicating in there understand that's communicating in there understand that's communicating in there and to learn more about that we think and to learn more about that we think and to learn more about that we think could give a lot of insight into early could give a lot of insight into early could give a lot of insight into early disease detection, better disease detection, better disease detection, better characterization, better diagnostics, characterization, better diagnostics, characterization, better diagnostics, more personalized treatments, more more personalized treatments, more more personalized treatments, more effective treatments, um more effective treatments, um more effective treatments, um more prevention. We think we could prevention. We think we could prevention. We think we could potentially get to prevent migraines. potentially get to prevent migraines. potentially get to prevent migraines. maybe not just forecast seizures, which maybe not just forecast seizures, which maybe not just forecast seizures, which we can't even do fully accurately yet, we can't even do fully accurately yet, we can't even do fully accurately yet, but we're working on it. Um, but prevent but we're working on it. Um, but prevent but we're working on it. Um, but prevent seizures. Um, you know, super early seizures. Um, you know, super early seizures. Um, you know, super early cancer detection. You know, these kinds cancer detection. You know, these kinds cancer detection. You know, these kinds of things are starting to happen as we of things are starting to happen as we of things are starting to happen as we get in the body and really uh start to get in the body and really uh start to get in the body and really uh start to pay attention to these fabulously, I' pay attention to these fabulously, I' pay attention to these fabulously, I' I'd say, designed uh signals and the I'd say, designed uh signals and the I'd say, designed uh signals and the messages that they carry. So, I'm messages that they carry. So, I'm messages that they carry. So, I'm learning a lot. Um, I don't know if learning a lot. Um, I don't know if learning a lot. Um, I don't know if that's what it means to be human. I I um that's what it means to be human. I I um that's what it means to be human. I I um I think what it means to be human, it I think what it means to be human, it I think what it means to be human, it probably involves more theological probably involves more theological probably involves more theological questions. Uh this is more like how a questions. Uh this is more like how a questions. Uh this is more like how a human operates and you know it does human operates and you know it does human operates and you know it does touch on things that are very important touch on things that are very important touch on things that are very important in daily life and health.

in daily life and health. in daily life and health. >> Well, who who ever would have thought e >> Well, who who ever would have thought e >> Well, who who ever would have thought e that we are fearfully and wonderfully that we are fearfully and wonderfully that we are fearfully and wonderfully made. made. made. >> What a yes. Exactly. It's just a a real >> What a yes. Exactly. It's just a a real >> What a yes. Exactly. It's just a a real joy to hear you talk about how the more joy to hear you talk about how the more joy to hear you talk about how the more you learn about human beings and you learn about human beings and you learn about human beings and technology, technology, technology, >> the more fuel you have in a sense for >> the more fuel you have in a sense for >> the more fuel you have in a sense for for worshiping the God who who made us. for worshiping the God who who made us. for worshiping the God who who made us. I think I certainly find that in I think I certainly find that in I think I certainly find that in philosophy. The deeper you get into the philosophy. The deeper you get into the philosophy. The deeper you get into the weeds, the more in awe you are of the weeds, the more in awe you are of the weeds, the more in awe you are of the creator. creator. creator. >> That's certainly true. >> That's certainly true. >> That's certainly true. Ros, you're right on the cutting edge of Ros, you're right on the cutting edge of Ros, you're right on the cutting edge of these discoveries and and developing AI. these discoveries and and developing AI. these discoveries and and developing AI. Most of us, including me, we we're just Most of us, including me, we we're just Most of us, including me, we we're just not. And the way that it can feel for not. And the way that it can feel for not. And the way that it can feel for people like me who don't really know a people like me who don't really know a people like me who don't really know a huge amount about the the technical side huge amount about the the technical side huge amount about the the technical side of these things is that this is just a of these things is that this is just a of these things is that this is just a tsunami sort of coming through society. tsunami sort of coming through society. tsunami sort of coming through society. It's inevitable. We're helpless. This It's inevitable. We're helpless. This It's inevitable. We're helpless. This this technology is simply happening to this technology is simply happening to this technology is simply happening to us. It might come and take our jobs. It us. It might come and take our jobs. It us. It might come and take our jobs. It might not. But there's nothing we can do might not. But there's nothing we can do might not. But there's nothing we can do about it.

about it. about it. How can we help in a sense write a new How can we help in a sense write a new How can we help in a sense write a new narrative that restores a sense of narrative that restores a sense of narrative that restores a sense of agency to people who are not working on agency to people who are not working on agency to people who are not working on the the bleeding edge of these the the bleeding edge of these the the bleeding edge of these technologies, you know, to people in technologies, you know, to people in technologies, you know, to people in local churches, to to people without local churches, to to people without local churches, to to people without that technical expertise. that technical expertise. that technical expertise. >> Oh golly. Uh we need new language. >> Oh golly. Uh we need new language. >> Oh golly. Uh we need new language. I as I've indicated you know we keep I as I've indicated you know we keep I as I've indicated you know we keep using these ideas like the machine is using these ideas like the machine is using these ideas like the machine is learning the machine is you know we learning the machine is you know we learning the machine is you know we don't say the function approximation in don't say the function approximation in don't say the function approximation in the machine the numbers have been tuned the machine the numbers have been tuned the machine the numbers have been tuned and uh because in part when we describe and uh because in part when we describe and uh because in part when we describe exactly what's happening it's so long- exactly what's happening it's so long- exactly what's happening it's so long- winded that you know we need short winded that you know we need short winded that you know we need short shortorthhand for it uh and even when we shortorthhand for it uh and even when we shortorthhand for it uh and even when we try to talk to the public and we try to talk to the public and we try to talk to the public and we describe precisely what's happening the describe precisely what's happening the describe precisely what's happening the press starts yawning and then they say press starts yawning and then they say press starts yawning and then they say it just has emotions right like no it it just has emotions right like no it it just has emotions right like no it doesn't. So, it's there's a problem. We doesn't. So, it's there's a problem. We doesn't. So, it's there's a problem. We don't have good language. Uh agents, we don't have good language. Uh agents, we don't have good language. Uh agents, we hear now about AI agency. Uh AI agents hear now about AI agency. Uh AI agents hear now about AI agency. Uh AI agents have been around for decades. We built have been around for decades. We built have been around for decades. We built them here. They've been uh usually the them here. They've been uh usually the them here. They've been uh usually the most successful ones are very narrowly most successful ones are very narrowly most successful ones are very narrowly uh programmed. They do involve machine uh programmed. They do involve machine uh programmed. They do involve machine learning and AI. They involve sensing.

learning and AI. They involve sensing. learning and AI. They involve sensing. They involve decision-m. They involve They involve decision-m. They involve They involve decision-m. They involve taking action. I'm actually running one taking action. I'm actually running one taking action. I'm actually running one in my watch right now that detects in my watch right now that detects in my watch right now that detects seizures. uh that you don't have to call seizures. uh that you don't have to call seizures. uh that you don't have to call it an agent if you don't want, but it's it an agent if you don't want, but it's it an agent if you don't want, but it's constantly perceiving my physiological constantly perceiving my physiological constantly perceiving my physiological data. It's got an FDA cleared algorithm data. It's got an FDA cleared algorithm data. It's got an FDA cleared algorithm to detect if that looks like a seizure. to detect if that looks like a seizure. to detect if that looks like a seizure. It alerts me if it thinks it's found It alerts me if it thinks it's found It alerts me if it thinks it's found one. Uh if I'm not having one, I'll one. Uh if I'm not having one, I'll one. Uh if I'm not having one, I'll cancel that alert. If I am having one, cancel that alert. If I am having one, cancel that alert. If I am having one, I'm unconscious. So, it starts taking I'm unconscious. So, it starts taking I'm unconscious. So, it starts taking action to call for help to, you know, I action to call for help to, you know, I action to call for help to, you know, I give permission to give my GPS give permission to give my GPS give permission to give my GPS coordinates. It updates my diary, gets coordinates. It updates my diary, gets coordinates. It updates my diary, gets me help, checks in, all kinds of things, me help, checks in, all kinds of things, me help, checks in, all kinds of things, right? That's it's an autonomous agent right? That's it's an autonomous agent right? That's it's an autonomous agent running continuously in my watch built running continuously in my watch built running continuously in my watch built with machine learning AI uh to perform with machine learning AI uh to perform with machine learning AI uh to perform what uh can be a life-saving step to what uh can be a life-saving step to what uh can be a life-saving step to summon somebody to be there at the time summon somebody to be there at the time summon somebody to be there at the time of a life-threatening seizure. So that of a life-threatening seizure. So that of a life-threatening seizure. So that is a kind of a lean green AI agent. Now is a kind of a lean green AI agent. Now is a kind of a lean green AI agent. Now people with seizure disorder give it people with seizure disorder give it people with seizure disorder give it agency, right? They say, "I want this agency, right? They say, "I want this agency, right? They say, "I want this agent because I don't want to be alone agent because I don't want to be alone agent because I don't want to be alone when I have a seizure." It's a small when I have a seizure." It's a small when I have a seizure." It's a small risk of dying, but it's a real risk of risk of dying, but it's a real risk of risk of dying, but it's a real risk of dying. If somebody's there, six time, dying. If somebody's there, six time, dying. If somebody's there, six time, five and a half, six times likelier, five and a half, six times likelier, five and a half, six times likelier, you're going to live. So, they want that you're going to live. So, they want that you're going to live. So, they want that wearable agent that gives them the wearable agent that gives them the wearable agent that gives them the freedom to not have to have somebody freedom to not have to have somebody freedom to not have to have somebody with them when they go to the bathroom with them when they go to the bathroom with them when they go to the bathroom or the shower. Uh, other times they want or the shower. Uh, other times they want or the shower. Uh, other times they want to be alone. um but they um they to be alone. um but they um they to be alone. um but they um they delegate to it a very important job and delegate to it a very important job and delegate to it a very important job and it's not perfect uh but you know there's

it's not perfect uh but you know there's it's not perfect uh but you know there's a time for delegating to an agent um a time for delegating to an agent um a time for delegating to an agent um there are other times when it's being there are other times when it's being there are other times when it's being shown now that delegating to AI agents shown now that delegating to AI agents shown now that delegating to AI agents that are not narrowly defined uh even if that are not narrowly defined uh even if that are not narrowly defined uh even if you give it a narrow task like uh you you give it a narrow task like uh you you give it a narrow task like uh you know I'm just playing a game report if know I'm just playing a game report if know I'm just playing a game report if the dice came up you know one to six, I the dice came up you know one to six, I the dice came up you know one to six, I get, you know, six cents if it came up get, you know, six cents if it came up get, you know, six cents if it came up six, one penny if it came up one. Well, six, one penny if it came up one. Well, six, one penny if it came up one. Well, guess what? People are cheating um when guess what? People are cheating um when guess what? People are cheating um when they delegate to the AI agent because they delegate to the AI agent because they delegate to the AI agent because the AI agent isn't that accurate at the AI agent isn't that accurate at the AI agent isn't that accurate at this. They're really bad at math. Uh and this. They're really bad at math. Uh and this. They're really bad at math. Uh and there are different ways you can train there are different ways you can train there are different ways you can train them and they're not going to give the them and they're not going to give the them and they're not going to give the right answer. If you force it to give right answer. If you force it to give right answer. If you force it to give the right answer, which about 95% of the right answer, which about 95% of the right answer, which about 95% of people do, uh then you know you well 5% people do, uh then you know you well 5% people do, uh then you know you well 5% are still cheating um for pennies, are still cheating um for pennies, are still cheating um for pennies, right? It's crazy. Uh so there are right? It's crazy. Uh so there are right? It's crazy. Uh so there are agents that are making it really easy agents that are making it really easy agents that are making it really easy for people to cheat even on really for people to cheat even on really for people to cheat even on really trivial stupid things, selling their trivial stupid things, selling their trivial stupid things, selling their integrity, right, for pennies. Uh and integrity, right, for pennies. Uh and integrity, right, for pennies. Uh and sometimes selling their integrity for a sometimes selling their integrity for a sometimes selling their integrity for a lot more um by granting agency to an AI lot more um by granting agency to an AI lot more um by granting agency to an AI that it looks like I gave it accurate that it looks like I gave it accurate that it looks like I gave it accurate instructions, but underneath, guess instructions, but underneath, guess instructions, but underneath, guess what? It's not accurate, right? And in what? It's not accurate, right? And in what? It's not accurate, right? And in fact, it's actually biased to give me fact, it's actually biased to give me fact, it's actually biased to give me more money. So there's I think very good more money. So there's I think very good more money. So there's I think very good agents that are very carefully um made agents that are very carefully um made agents that are very carefully um made for certain purposes and reviewed for certain purposes and reviewed for certain purposes and reviewed carefully uh by medical authorities and carefully uh by medical authorities and carefully uh by medical authorities and there are going to be a growing number there are going to be a growing number there are going to be a growing number of AI agents because they're so easy to of AI agents because they're so easy to of AI agents because they're so easy to make now that are built on these large make now that are built on these large make now that are built on these large language models uh especially I'm

language models uh especially I'm language models uh especially I'm worried about the ones that are trained worried about the ones that are trained worried about the ones that are trained on the entire internet you know the on the entire internet you know the on the entire internet you know the founders of some of these companies uh founders of some of these companies uh founders of some of these companies uh like Ilask said at Nurups they've has like Ilask said at Nurups they've has like Ilask said at Nurups they've has sucked up the whole internet into the sucked up the whole internet into the sucked up the whole internet into the first OpenAI model and chatgbt. So it first OpenAI model and chatgbt. So it first OpenAI model and chatgbt. So it has been trained on the entire garbage has been trained on the entire garbage has been trained on the entire garbage heap of everything that's on the heap of everything that's on the heap of everything that's on the internet which we know the majority of internet which we know the majority of internet which we know the majority of which you would never show on your show, which you would never show on your show, which you would never show on your show, right? So this is uh and it's people can right? So this is uh and it's people can right? So this is uh and it's people can jack into that through various tricks to jack into that through various tricks to jack into that through various tricks to get that stuff to come out. So you can't get that stuff to come out. So you can't get that stuff to come out. So you can't just tune it out on the outside uh just tune it out on the outside uh just tune it out on the outside uh because the randomness and strategies because the randomness and strategies because the randomness and strategies can can uncover it. Um, so there are can can uncover it. Um, so there are can can uncover it. Um, so there are agents now that people are giving uh agents now that people are giving uh agents now that people are giving uh authority to that have the run of all of authority to that have the run of all of authority to that have the run of all of that muck. Uh, and I think we have to that muck. Uh, and I think we have to that muck. Uh, and I think we have to really put some guard rails around some really put some guard rails around some really put some guard rails around some of those. Um, but in all of these cases, of those. Um, but in all of these cases, of those. Um, but in all of these cases, every single one of them, there is a every single one of them, there is a every single one of them, there is a human who's responsible or a team of human who's responsible or a team of human who's responsible or a team of humans who's responsible. If if humans who's responsible. If if humans who's responsible. If if something goes wrong, uh, they they something goes wrong, uh, they they something goes wrong, uh, they they don't sue the agent. They sue the don't sue the agent. They sue the don't sue the agent. They sue the company that made the agent. They sue company that made the agent. They sue company that made the agent. They sue the people in the company that make the the people in the company that make the the people in the company that make the agent. Right? There's not that again agent. Right? There's not that again agent. Right? There's not that again there's no agency. There's no legal there's no agency. There's no legal there's no agency. There's no legal person uh that we have built. Now there person uh that we have built. Now there person uh that we have built. Now there have been some that have claimed that uh have been some that have claimed that uh have been some that have claimed that uh you might know the Sophia robot when it you might know the Sophia robot when it you might know the Sophia robot when it was in Saudi Arabia and they said she is

was in Saudi Arabia and they said she is was in Saudi Arabia and they said she is a citizen. Uh, some of us are wanting to a citizen. Uh, some of us are wanting to a citizen. Uh, some of us are wanting to talk about pronouns with a different talk about pronouns with a different talk about pronouns with a different kind of a kind of a kind of a conversation about pronouns right now. conversation about pronouns right now. conversation about pronouns right now. Should we really be using these human Should we really be using these human Should we really be using these human male and female pronouns for machines male and female pronouns for machines male and female pronouns for machines that we've built? Uh, but when people that we've built? Uh, but when people that we've built? Uh, but when people see this feminine form and it has the see this feminine form and it has the see this feminine form and it has the name Sophia, uh, it is called she by name Sophia, uh, it is called she by name Sophia, uh, it is called she by people. Now, when Sophia got people. Now, when Sophia got people. Now, when Sophia got citizenship, it was a publicity stunt, citizenship, it was a publicity stunt, citizenship, it was a publicity stunt, right? Uh David, her maker, took her right? Uh David, her maker, took her right? Uh David, her maker, took her $50,000 honorarium for his own bank $50,000 honorarium for his own bank $50,000 honorarium for his own bank account, puts her back in the box, and account, puts her back in the box, and account, puts her back in the box, and ships her in the cargo compartment back ships her in the cargo compartment back ships her in the cargo compartment back in the airplane, right? So much for in the airplane, right? So much for in the airplane, right? So much for female rights in Saudi Arabia. female rights in Saudi Arabia. female rights in Saudi Arabia. this uh you know this this is a stunt uh this uh you know this this is a stunt uh this uh you know this this is a stunt uh for publicity but it's certainly uh for for publicity but it's certainly uh for for publicity but it's certainly uh for again back to your point about people again back to your point about people again back to your point about people who don't really know what's going on who don't really know what's going on who don't really know what's going on inside you know it could look like hey inside you know it could look like hey inside you know it could look like hey how come this woman in Saudi Arabia gets how come this woman in Saudi Arabia gets how come this woman in Saudi Arabia gets to drive a car and have all these rights to drive a car and have all these rights to drive a car and have all these rights and you know me a real female like and you know me a real female like and you know me a real female like doesn't have as many rights as this doesn't have as many rights as this doesn't have as many rights as this robot robot robot >> absolutely >> absolutely >> absolutely uh I think part of The reason that uh I think part of The reason that uh I think part of The reason that I can feel disempowered and and perhaps I can feel disempowered and and perhaps I can feel disempowered and and perhaps other people feel disempowered too is we other people feel disempowered too is we other people feel disempowered too is we don't have a sense of what a good AI don't have a sense of what a good AI don't have a sense of what a good AI future looks like. So we we've heard all future looks like. So we we've heard all future looks like. So we we've heard all these sort of apocalyptic stories about these sort of apocalyptic stories about these sort of apocalyptic stories about AI taking our jobs and you know of

AI taking our jobs and you know of AI taking our jobs and you know of course the Terminator movies and that's course the Terminator movies and that's course the Terminator movies and that's all there but we don't have a a positive all there but we don't have a a positive all there but we don't have a a positive vision for the way AI could really do vision for the way AI could really do vision for the way AI could really do good in society in the future. And if good in society in the future. And if good in society in the future. And if you don't know what it looks like you you don't know what it looks like you you don't know what it looks like you can't sort of lean into it. can't try can't sort of lean into it. can't try can't sort of lean into it. can't try and make it happen. Are you able to and make it happen. Are you able to and make it happen. Are you able to paint for us the the best possible best paint for us the the best possible best paint for us the the best possible best case scenario for AI in the future? If case scenario for AI in the future? If case scenario for AI in the future? If you could, you know, shape the future as you could, you know, shape the future as you could, you know, shape the future as you would think it best would be, how you would think it best would be, how you would think it best would be, how would we be using AI and what would that would we be using AI and what would that would we be using AI and what would that future look like? You cast a vision so future look like? You cast a vision so future look like? You cast a vision so that we can then, you know, have that in that we can then, you know, have that in that we can then, you know, have that in our minds as as as we engage with these our minds as as as we engage with these our minds as as as we engage with these questions. questions. questions. >> Oh, golly. How how far out do we want to >> Oh, golly. How how far out do we want to >> Oh, golly. How how far out do we want to go here? Um I mean the the movie makers go here? Um I mean the the movie makers go here? Um I mean the the movie makers so many roboticists today were inspired so many roboticists today were inspired so many roboticists today were inspired by movies not like Terminator but like by movies not like Terminator but like by movies not like Terminator but like uh C3PO, R2-D2 and Star Wars, you know, uh C3PO, R2-D2 and Star Wars, you know, uh C3PO, R2-D2 and Star Wars, you know, characters that did not pretend to be characters that did not pretend to be characters that did not pretend to be human really, you know, but but in their human really, you know, but but in their human really, you know, but but in their quirky, fun, helpful ways were uh quirky, fun, helpful ways were uh quirky, fun, helpful ways were uh supportive of human missions, right? Um supportive of human missions, right? Um supportive of human missions, right? Um I I could just go on with lots of I I could just go on with lots of I I could just go on with lots of positive examples that I hope would positive examples that I hope would positive examples that I hope would continue in the future. For example, continue in the future. For example, continue in the future. For example, there are robots out there cleaning there are robots out there cleaning there are robots out there cleaning minefields.

minefields. minefields. And you don't want to send humans out to And you don't want to send humans out to And you don't want to send humans out to clean minefields, right? So to have a clean minefields, right? So to have a clean minefields, right? So to have a robot, you know, tiptoeing around, you robot, you know, tiptoeing around, you robot, you know, tiptoeing around, you know, and cleaning up the mines so that know, and cleaning up the mines so that know, and cleaning up the mines so that children and pe adults don't lose their children and pe adults don't lose their children and pe adults don't lose their limbs or their lives, you know, I think limbs or their lives, you know, I think limbs or their lives, you know, I think is a one of many wonderful uses of is a one of many wonderful uses of is a one of many wonderful uses of robots. uh there are times when the robots. uh there are times when the robots. uh there are times when the robot may need limbs, you know, or other robot may need limbs, you know, or other robot may need limbs, you know, or other form factors uh to operate in certain form factors uh to operate in certain form factors uh to operate in certain environments that are made for people environments that are made for people environments that are made for people with limbs. And so I I'm not going to with limbs. And so I I'm not going to with limbs. And so I I'm not going to say blanket the future means it should say blanket the future means it should say blanket the future means it should never look like X or it should never never look like X or it should never never look like X or it should never sound like Y because people uh most sound like Y because people uh most sound like Y because people uh most people can't program an interface people can't program an interface people can't program an interface directly to a robot. they can, not all directly to a robot. they can, not all directly to a robot. they can, not all people, but most people can speak to uh people, but most people can speak to uh people, but most people can speak to uh an entity and they would really like if an entity and they would really like if an entity and they would really like if it understood what they say. I'll add it understood what they say. I'll add it understood what they say. I'll add they would really like if they they would really like if they they would really like if they understood that they're getting really understood that they're getting really understood that they're getting really frustrated with it, maybe it should frustrated with it, maybe it should frustrated with it, maybe it should apologize or explain itself. So, uh apologize or explain itself. So, uh apologize or explain itself. So, uh that's where the affect of computing that's where the affect of computing that's where the affect of computing comes in. Once you have a an interface comes in. Once you have a an interface comes in. Once you have a an interface that people are interacting with in that that people are interacting with in that that people are interacting with in that kind of natural way. Um I am not keen on kind of natural way. Um I am not keen on kind of natural way. Um I am not keen on it pretending to be a person. I I would it pretending to be a person. I I would it pretending to be a person. I I would hope that in the future we would keep hope that in the future we would keep hope that in the future we would keep separate uh what a human being is and separate uh what a human being is and separate uh what a human being is and what a machine made by a human is and what a machine made by a human is and what a machine made by a human is and find ways to distinguish that. Uh find ways to distinguish that. Uh find ways to distinguish that. Uh whether it's visible ways, legal ways whether it's visible ways, legal ways whether it's visible ways, legal ways that require certain things. Um, you

that require certain things. Um, you that require certain things. Um, you know, it's it's a bit hard though know, it's it's a bit hard though know, it's it's a bit hard though because there are completely unregulated because there are completely unregulated because there are completely unregulated markets where people will pay for uh, markets where people will pay for uh, markets where people will pay for uh, you know, very female looking robots, you know, very female looking robots, you know, very female looking robots, right? Um, and use cases that I, you right? Um, and use cases that I, you right? Um, and use cases that I, you know, would abhore uh, and yet, you know, would abhore uh, and yet, you know, would abhore uh, and yet, you know, there's no regulation against know, there's no regulation against know, there's no regulation against these uses right now. And I, by the way, these uses right now. And I, by the way, these uses right now. And I, by the way, that's a nightmare. Sorry, you asked that's a nightmare. Sorry, you asked that's a nightmare. Sorry, you asked about a positive future. That's a I I about a positive future. That's a I I about a positive future. That's a I I heard a a man at a conference I was at heard a a man at a conference I was at heard a a man at a conference I was at this past weekend on AI and Christianity this past weekend on AI and Christianity this past weekend on AI and Christianity um say that oh well at least that won't um say that oh well at least that won't um say that oh well at least that won't hurt women like porn does and I'm like hurt women like porn does and I'm like hurt women like porn does and I'm like what are you kidding? You know he's like what are you kidding? You know he's like what are you kidding? You know he's like it won't hurt women because it doesn't it won't hurt women because it doesn't it won't hurt women because it doesn't involve women like you know as soon as involve women like you know as soon as involve women like you know as soon as these things are on the arm of high these things are on the arm of high these things are on the arm of high school boys you know what's going to school boys you know what's going to school boys you know what's going to happen to all of our daughters and their happen to all of our daughters and their happen to all of our daughters and their friends you know in terms of um how they friends you know in terms of um how they friends you know in terms of um how they are seen right and how they feel. Uh it are seen right and how they feel. Uh it are seen right and how they feel. Uh it is a nightmare. Sorry, the opposite of is a nightmare. Sorry, the opposite of is a nightmare. Sorry, the opposite of what you just asked for. So my positive what you just asked for. So my positive what you just asked for. So my positive future would prevent things like that future would prevent things like that future would prevent things like that from uh being part of our society. And I from uh being part of our society. And I from uh being part of our society. And I don't know the right way to do that. I don't know the right way to do that. I don't know the right way to do that. I have some crazy ideas. Uh and it would have some crazy ideas. Uh and it would have some crazy ideas. Uh and it would uh keep the things we've made as clearly uh keep the things we've made as clearly uh keep the things we've made as clearly things that we've made and hopefully things that we've made and hopefully things that we've made and hopefully orient them toward uh human flourishing.

orient them toward uh human flourishing. orient them toward uh human flourishing. You know, when you see hundreds of You know, when you see hundreds of You know, when you see hundreds of billions being poured into AI and so billions being poured into AI and so billions being poured into AI and so much need in the world, I I really want much need in the world, I I really want much need in the world, I I really want to elevate the voices who understand the to elevate the voices who understand the to elevate the voices who understand the real needs in the world so that some I real needs in the world so that some I real needs in the world so that some I wish all of that could go to supporting wish all of that could go to supporting wish all of that could go to supporting the real needs there are, not these pie the real needs there are, not these pie the real needs there are, not these pie in the sky uh silly ideas like AGI is in the sky uh silly ideas like AGI is in the sky uh silly ideas like AGI is the, you know, a bit of a head shaker. the, you know, a bit of a head shaker. the, you know, a bit of a head shaker. >> That's so incredibly helpful. I I I find >> That's so incredibly helpful. I I I find >> That's so incredibly helpful. I I I find it really um sort of empowering to to be it really um sort of empowering to to be it really um sort of empowering to to be able to see yes the you know future in able to see yes the you know future in able to see yes the you know future in which AI is helping to clear minefields which AI is helping to clear minefields which AI is helping to clear minefields and is doing the C3PO type thing which and is doing the C3PO type thing which and is doing the C3PO type thing which is not pretending to be a human but is not pretending to be a human but is not pretending to be a human but supporting humans in what they're supporting humans in what they're supporting humans in what they're seeking to do is is a future that I I seeking to do is is a future that I I seeking to do is is a future that I I feel I can believe in in a way that a feel I can believe in in a way that a feel I can believe in in a way that a lot of these futures are painted. You lot of these futures are painted. You lot of these futures are painted. You think that's just obnoxious that's think that's just obnoxious that's think that's just obnoxious that's dehumanizing. dehumanizing. dehumanizing. Um really practically Um really practically Um really practically a a Christian is sitting at their a a Christian is sitting at their a a Christian is sitting at their keyboard. They've got Chat GPT or Gemini keyboard. They've got Chat GPT or Gemini keyboard. They've got Chat GPT or Gemini or Claude open. They're having a or Claude open. They're having a or Claude open. They're having a conversation with the LLM. What is the conversation with the LLM. What is the conversation with the LLM. What is the one thing that that you would hope all one thing that that you would hope all one thing that that you would hope all those people would have in their mind those people would have in their mind those people would have in their mind that the the one principle for engaging that the the one principle for engaging that the the one principle for engaging with these things that you think if with these things that you think if with these things that you think if you're if you're viewing it this way, you're if you're viewing it this way, you're if you're viewing it this way, you you'll not go wrong? Well, I don't you you'll not go wrong? Well, I don't you you'll not go wrong? Well, I don't know if this will work for others, but I know if this will work for others, but I know if this will work for others, but I I know how it works. So, I remind myself I know how it works. So, I remind myself I know how it works. So, I remind myself that it's this

that it's this that it's this some people call it a stochastic parrot, some people call it a stochastic parrot, some people call it a stochastic parrot, but uh that there is randomness on top but uh that there is randomness on top but uh that there is randomness on top of an algorithm that's mapping every of an algorithm that's mapping every of an algorithm that's mapping every word into this mathematical space and word into this mathematical space and word into this mathematical space and it's just finding things that are it's just finding things that are it's just finding things that are similar, right? It it doesn't know similar, right? It it doesn't know similar, right? It it doesn't know what's right. It doesn't know what's what's right. It doesn't know what's what's right. It doesn't know what's wrong. it's only finding stuff that wrong. it's only finding stuff that wrong. it's only finding stuff that reward functions, mathematical reward reward functions, mathematical reward reward functions, mathematical reward functions have been trained on with it. functions have been trained on with it. functions have been trained on with it. Uh, and there's a lot of room for error Uh, and there's a lot of room for error Uh, and there's a lot of room for error in there. So, um, one of the many things in there. So, um, one of the many things in there. So, um, one of the many things I remind myself of is watch out for when I remind myself of is watch out for when I remind myself of is watch out for when it feels too frictionless, when it feels it feels too frictionless, when it feels it feels too frictionless, when it feels too easy. And uh we've had work at the too easy. And uh we've had work at the too easy. And uh we've had work at the MIT media lab that has shown that MIT media lab that has shown that MIT media lab that has shown that students for example when randomized to students for example when randomized to students for example when randomized to groups where they write essays with in groups where they write essays with in groups where they write essays with in this case it was chat GBT or using this case it was chat GBT or using this case it was chat GBT or using Google search or the oldfashioned way Google search or the oldfashioned way Google search or the oldfashioned way just pencil and paper that they uh have just pencil and paper that they uh have just pencil and paper that they uh have very different outcomes uh both in very different outcomes uh both in very different outcomes uh both in neural activity measured in their brains neural activity measured in their brains neural activity measured in their brains and in things like more than 85% of them and in things like more than 85% of them and in things like more than 85% of them can't quote something that they just can't quote something that they just can't quote something that they just wrote minutes ago when they used uh the wrote minutes ago when they used uh the wrote minutes ago when they used uh the LLM to write it. So what are we like why LLM to write it. So what are we like why LLM to write it. So what are we like why are we turning are you know are you are we turning are you know are you are we turning are you know are you turning off your brain when you use it turning off your brain when you use it turning off your brain when you use it would be something I would ask you to would be something I would ask you to would be something I would ask you to keep in the back of your mind if you're keep in the back of your mind if you're keep in the back of your mind if you're turning off your brain when you use it turning off your brain when you use it turning off your brain when you use it uh would your time be better spent doing uh would your time be better spent doing uh would your time be better spent doing something else that turns on your brain something else that turns on your brain something else that turns on your brain that develops your brain uh now it is that develops your brain uh now it is that develops your brain uh now it is possible to use it in ways that does you

possible to use it in ways that does you possible to use it in ways that does you know qu give you questions you know or know qu give you questions you know or know qu give you questions you know or uses it for search and then you're uses it for search and then you're uses it for search and then you're digging deep and reading those original digging deep and reading those original digging deep and reading those original documents and stuff So, it's not all documents and stuff So, it's not all documents and stuff So, it's not all bad. Uh, it's possible also to use it to bad. Uh, it's possible also to use it to bad. Uh, it's possible also to use it to roleplay something that you where you roleplay something that you where you roleplay something that you where you might say, you know, I really don't might say, you know, I really don't might say, you know, I really don't understand perspectives like this. Can understand perspectives like this. Can understand perspectives like this. Can you show me like why some people might you show me like why some people might you show me like why some people might believe something like that? And then believe something like that? And then believe something like that? And then you role play a little bit before you you role play a little bit before you you role play a little bit before you talk to somebody like that. There are talk to somebody like that. There are talk to somebody like that. There are ways to use it that are active and ways to use it that are active and ways to use it that are active and engaging and not so frictionless. But engaging and not so frictionless. But engaging and not so frictionless. But watch out for when you think you're watch out for when you think you're watch out for when you think you're learning but your your brain is on learning but your your brain is on learning but your your brain is on autopilot and you're just wasting your autopilot and you're just wasting your autopilot and you're just wasting your time. Uh so time. Uh so time. Uh so >> you know unless you find that more >> you know unless you find that more >> you know unless you find that more pleasurable than going off and doing pleasurable than going off and doing pleasurable than going off and doing something um you know reading m something um you know reading m something um you know reading m listening to music or resting at the listening to music or resting at the listening to music or resting at the seashore you know just be just be seashore you know just be just be seashore you know just be just be thoughtful about how much is it truly thoughtful about how much is it truly thoughtful about how much is it truly engaging your brain. I think a principle engaging your brain. I think a principle engaging your brain. I think a principle that's coming out in all your positive that's coming out in all your positive that's coming out in all your positive examples is that they're feeding and examples is that they're feeding and examples is that they're feeding and supporting and enabling human supporting and enabling human supporting and enabling human relationships relationships relationships that to to go back to that CS Lewis that to to go back to that CS Lewis that to to go back to that CS Lewis quote, they're helping us to get to the quote, they're helping us to get to the quote, they're helping us to get to the beach to have that holiday rather than beach to have that holiday rather than beach to have that holiday rather than keeping us in the slum. So whenever AI keeping us in the slum. So whenever AI keeping us in the slum. So whenever AI is helping us to get out into human is helping us to get out into human is helping us to get out into human relationships and to to be able to um to relationships and to to be able to um to relationships and to to be able to um to navigate those a little bit better, navigate those a little bit better, navigate those a little bit better, you're saying that that's a great use of you're saying that that's a great use of you're saying that that's a great use of it. Uh it's it's really helpful for it. Uh it's it's really helpful for it. Uh it's it's really helpful for scaffolding those human relationships.

scaffolding those human relationships. scaffolding those human relationships. >> Yeah, I I think that's one of several >> Yeah, I I think that's one of several >> Yeah, I I think that's one of several very good uh promotion of human very good uh promotion of human very good uh promotion of human flourishing things that can do. Um it flourishing things that can do. Um it flourishing things that can do. Um it also, you know, can be helpful for you also, you know, can be helpful for you also, you know, can be helpful for you to just get information about things. to just get information about things. to just get information about things. Although it can be a very expensive way Although it can be a very expensive way Although it can be a very expensive way to get information. I liken it to, you to get information. I liken it to, you to get information. I liken it to, you know, hopping in the gasg guzzling car know, hopping in the gasg guzzling car know, hopping in the gasg guzzling car to drive a block to the coffee shop, to drive a block to the coffee shop, to drive a block to the coffee shop, right, when you could walk. There there right, when you could walk. There there right, when you could walk. There there might be, you know, because it uses huge might be, you know, because it uses huge might be, you know, because it uses huge amounts of energy and water and, you amounts of energy and water and, you amounts of energy and water and, you know, natural resources. And so I I kind know, natural resources. And so I I kind know, natural resources. And so I I kind of wish they would start metering of wish they would start metering of wish they would start metering showing us what's actually going into showing us what's actually going into showing us what's actually going into our simple queries. you know, uh, 100 our simple queries. you know, uh, 100 our simple queries. you know, uh, 100 words, uh, half liter bottle of water, words, uh, half liter bottle of water, words, uh, half liter bottle of water, you know, these we we might think about you know, these we we might think about you know, these we we might think about getting some of our information in other getting some of our information in other getting some of our information in other ways if we saw that this was a very ways if we saw that this was a very ways if we saw that this was a very costly way. costly way. costly way. >> Absolutely. No, that is certainly true. >> Absolutely. No, that is certainly true. >> Absolutely. No, that is certainly true. And we we have a whole episode of this And we we have a whole episode of this And we we have a whole episode of this series on on those issues that I think series on on those issues that I think series on on those issues that I think are crucial to keep in mind uh when when are crucial to keep in mind uh when when are crucial to keep in mind uh when when we're thinking about these technologies. we're thinking about these technologies. we're thinking about these technologies. Ros, there are two closing questions Ros, there are two closing questions Ros, there are two closing questions that I I ask to all uh guests on the that I I ask to all uh guests on the that I I ask to all uh guests on the show. Uh what's one inefficient human show. Uh what's one inefficient human show. Uh what's one inefficient human habit that you're committed to keeping habit that you're committed to keeping habit that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, uh what is one thing that it's revealing uh what is one thing that it's revealing uh what is one thing that it's revealing to you personally uh about your own to you personally uh about your own to you personally uh about your own heart?

heart? heart? >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um >> Yeah. Um there's a bunch of things I I do that there's a bunch of things I I do that there's a bunch of things I I do that are inefficient. are inefficient. are inefficient. I think uh I mean there are things I I think uh I mean there are things I I think uh I mean there are things I just enjoy that are tangible. I love to just enjoy that are tangible. I love to just enjoy that are tangible. I love to cook with my family. You know, I I've cook with my family. You know, I I've cook with my family. You know, I I've heard people say like, "Oh, we could heard people say like, "Oh, we could heard people say like, "Oh, we could make this perfect nutritious beverage make this perfect nutritious beverage make this perfect nutritious beverage and it would meet all of your nutrient and it would meet all of your nutrient and it would meet all of your nutrient needs and you could subscribe to it. needs and you could subscribe to it. needs and you could subscribe to it. We'll send it to you." And I'm like, We'll send it to you." And I'm like, We'll send it to you." And I'm like, like, you don't understand how much fun like, you don't understand how much fun like, you don't understand how much fun it is to figure out a recipe with my son it is to figure out a recipe with my son it is to figure out a recipe with my son and, you know, we're in there doing all and, you know, we're in there doing all and, you know, we're in there doing all this crazy stuff. Uh, and it's it's as this crazy stuff. Uh, and it's it's as this crazy stuff. Uh, and it's it's as much about making memories together as much about making memories together as much about making memories together as it is about getting nutrition, right? it is about getting nutrition, right? it is about getting nutrition, right? >> And it always tastes better when you've >> And it always tastes better when you've >> And it always tastes better when you've cooked it yourself, doesn't it? cooked it yourself, doesn't it? cooked it yourself, doesn't it? >> Oh, I don't know about that. >> Oh, I don't know about that. >> Oh, I don't know about that. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> Okay. >> But we run some experiments. Uh, but I, >> But we run some experiments. Uh, but I, >> But we run some experiments. Uh, but I, you know, I I think, you know, going you know, I I think, you know, going you know, I I think, you know, going back to more tangible and shared back to more tangible and shared back to more tangible and shared experiences, you know, especially experiences, you know, especially experiences, you know, especially something that, uh, can be shared with something that, uh, can be shared with something that, uh, can be shared with another person. Grab a neighbor, grab a another person. Grab a neighbor, grab a another person. Grab a neighbor, grab a student, grab a family member, you know, student, grab a family member, you know, student, grab a family member, you know, even if you can't uh have them there even if you can't uh have them there even if you can't uh have them there physically with you, you know. Sorry, physically with you, you know. Sorry, physically with you, you know. Sorry, I'm using technology here. It doesn't I'm using technology here. It doesn't I'm using technology here. It doesn't have to be AI. Um, but I'll like work have to be AI. Um, but I'll like work have to be AI. Um, but I'll like work out with my best friend on and she'll be out with my best friend on and she'll be out with my best friend on and she'll be on the phone on speaker with me, right?

on the phone on speaker with me, right? on the phone on speaker with me, right? And we'll be maybe doing the same And we'll be maybe doing the same And we'll be maybe doing the same workout app or talking about cooking. uh workout app or talking about cooking. uh workout app or talking about cooking. uh you know ideally you'd be there together you know ideally you'd be there together you know ideally you'd be there together physically but having that presence physically but having that presence physically but having that presence developing that relationship and doing developing that relationship and doing developing that relationship and doing something together uh is you know is so something together uh is you know is so something together uh is you know is so wonderful for human flourishing wonderful for human flourishing wonderful for human flourishing >> yeah it certainly is and and if AI is a >> yeah it certainly is and and if AI is a >> yeah it certainly is and and if AI is a mirror is there one thing that it's mirror is there one thing that it's mirror is there one thing that it's revealing to you personally about your revealing to you personally about your revealing to you personally about your own heart own heart own heart >> I I think just that I am insatiably >> I I think just that I am insatiably >> I I think just that I am insatiably curious and when I'm given the opport curious and when I'm given the opport curious and when I'm given the opport you know if I I I used to say if uh if I you know if I I I used to say if uh if I you know if I I I used to say if uh if I were locked in a prison, I'd be okay as were locked in a prison, I'd be okay as were locked in a prison, I'd be okay as long as they had a lot of books. Uh you long as they had a lot of books. Uh you long as they had a lot of books. Uh you know, but sometimes I think we know, but sometimes I think we know, but sometimes I think we essentially go into you may call AI a essentially go into you may call AI a essentially go into you may call AI a prison, right? You can go down into that prison, right? You can go down into that prison, right? You can go down into that hole and you can uh you can ask things hole and you can uh you can ask things hole and you can uh you can ask things forever and you got to watch out because forever and you got to watch out because forever and you got to watch out because they have been crafting how to end the they have been crafting how to end the they have been crafting how to end the AI session with a kind of question that AI session with a kind of question that AI session with a kind of question that makes you want to uh keep ask you know makes you want to uh keep ask you know makes you want to uh keep ask you know oh yes oh could I do this for you? Oh of oh yes oh could I do this for you? Oh of oh yes oh could I do this for you? Oh of course you could yes you know would you course you could yes you know would you course you could yes you know would you like it presented this way? Oh yes that like it presented this way? Oh yes that like it presented this way? Oh yes that would be interesting too. Would you like would be interesting too. Would you like would be interesting too. Would you like me to compare it to this? you know, and me to compare it to this? you know, and me to compare it to this? you know, and you have to watch out, right? So, it has you have to watch out, right? So, it has you have to watch out, right? So, it has pointed out to me that my curiosity pointed out to me that my curiosity pointed out to me that my curiosity could go a little too far sometimes.

could go a little too far sometimes. could go a little too far sometimes. >> Yes, that's very perceptive. And they >> Yes, that's very perceptive. And they >> Yes, that's very perceptive. And they always do. They they didn't in the early always do. They they didn't in the early always do. They they didn't in the early days, they didn't, did they? And then days, they didn't, did they? And then days, they didn't, did they? And then there was a point at which they started there was a point at which they started there was a point at which they started asking you these questions asking you these questions asking you these questions >> and they realized how to make how to >> and they realized how to make how to >> and they realized how to make how to crank up engagement. Uh, and they um in crank up engagement. Uh, and they um in crank up engagement. Uh, and they um in fact, people in the companies now are fact, people in the companies now are fact, people in the companies now are struggling because they are being told struggling because they are being told struggling because they are being told they have to crank up engagement, but they have to crank up engagement, but they have to crank up engagement, but they want to crank up human flourishing. they want to crank up human flourishing. they want to crank up human flourishing. We have covered uh a great deal of We have covered uh a great deal of We have covered uh a great deal of ground uh over the past uh few minutes. ground uh over the past uh few minutes. ground uh over the past uh few minutes. If you're listening or watching and you If you're listening or watching and you If you're listening or watching and you want to take these things further, uh want to take these things further, uh want to take these things further, uh please do come to the Silicon please do come to the Silicon please do come to the Silicon Spiritualities Discord. Uh where we're Spiritualities Discord. Uh where we're Spiritualities Discord. Uh where we're trying to work out together how to live trying to work out together how to live trying to work out together how to live in a a techsaturated world. Uh you'll in a a techsaturated world. Uh you'll in a a techsaturated world. Uh you'll find practical life experiments related find practical life experiments related find practical life experiments related to every episode and you'll find also to every episode and you'll find also to every episode and you'll find also details of an upcoming online cohort as details of an upcoming online cohort as details of an upcoming online cohort as well. The link is waiting in the show well. The link is waiting in the show well. The link is waiting in the show notes and we'd we'd love to see you notes and we'd we'd love to see you notes and we'd we'd love to see you there. Uh but for the moment, Ros, it's there. Uh but for the moment, Ros, it's there. Uh but for the moment, Ros, it's been an absolute delight speaking about been an absolute delight speaking about been an absolute delight speaking about with you about these things. I feel that with you about these things. I feel that with you about these things. I feel that we've just scratched the surface, but we we've just scratched the surface, but we we've just scratched the surface, but we do have to draw things to a close. So, do have to draw things to a close. So, do have to draw things to a close. So, thank you so much for spending this time thank you so much for spending this time thank you so much for spending this time with us.

with us. with us. >> Thank you. It's been my pleasure.