AI and Aging: The Grace of Limits [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 6]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about podcast from the Gospel Coalition about what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of what it means to be human in the age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this series, we're going to unpack three series, we're going to unpack three series, we're going to unpack three crucial questions. What can AI do for crucial questions. What can AI do for crucial questions. What can AI do for us? What is AI doing to us? And what is us? What is AI doing to us? And what is us? What is AI doing to us? And what is AI showing us about who we really are? AI showing us about who we really are? AI showing us about who we really are? Today I've got the joy of being joined Today I've got the joy of being joined Today I've got the joy of being joined by Dr. Autumn Alcott Ridenower, Mockler, by Dr. Autumn Alcott Ridenower, Mockler, by Dr. Autumn Alcott Ridenower, Mockler, associate professor of Christian ethics associate professor of Christian ethics associate professor of Christian ethics at Gordon Cornwell Theological Seminary at Gordon Cornwell Theological Seminary at Gordon Cornwell Theological Seminary and author of two books, Sabbath resters and author of two books, Sabbath resters and author of two books, Sabbath resters vocation, aging to our death and uh a vocation, aging to our death and uh a vocation, aging to our death and uh a new book release, Restlessness and new book release, Restlessness and new book release, Restlessness and Belonging, Austinian Wisdom in the Belonging, Austinian Wisdom in the Belonging, Austinian Wisdom in the Digital Empire. Autumn, welcome to the Digital Empire. Autumn, welcome to the Digital Empire. Autumn, welcome to the podcast. podcast. podcast. >> Thank you. It's a joy and honor to be >> Thank you. It's a joy and honor to be >> Thank you. It's a joy and honor to be with you today. Thank you. Autumn, I with you today. Thank you. Autumn, I with you today. Thank you. Autumn, I want to start if we could with a want to start if we could with a want to start if we could with a scenario that I think is increasingly scenario that I think is increasingly scenario that I think is increasingly becoming a reality for people.

becoming a reality for people. becoming a reality for people. Imagine Crystal. Uh Crystal lost her Imagine Crystal. Uh Crystal lost her Imagine Crystal. Uh Crystal lost her grandmother last year and and the the grandmother last year and and the the grandmother last year and and the the grief is really raw for her still. grief is really raw for her still. grief is really raw for her still. There's a company that allows her to There's a company that allows her to There's a company that allows her to upload all her deceased grandmother's upload all her deceased grandmother's upload all her deceased grandmother's texts and emails and voice notes and texts and emails and voice notes and texts and emails and voice notes and create a granny bot that that speaks create a granny bot that that speaks create a granny bot that that speaks just like grandma used to. She can ask just like grandma used to. She can ask just like grandma used to. She can ask the bot, you know, for advice on her the bot, you know, for advice on her the bot, you know, for advice on her wedding day and she chat with Granny Bot wedding day and she chat with Granny Bot wedding day and she chat with Granny Bot just like she used to. Now, in Sabbath just like she used to. Now, in Sabbath just like she used to. Now, in Sabbath Westers's vocation, you critique what Westers's vocation, you critique what Westers's vocation, you critique what you call that the transhumanist desire you call that the transhumanist desire you call that the transhumanist desire to solve the problem of death. And I to solve the problem of death. And I to solve the problem of death. And I wonder what you would advise Crystal. wonder what you would advise Crystal. wonder what you would advise Crystal. You know, is Grannybot just a a harmless You know, is Grannybot just a a harmless You know, is Grannybot just a a harmless way to remember a dear loved one? Is it way to remember a dear loved one? Is it way to remember a dear loved one? Is it just like your own memories of that just like your own memories of that just like your own memories of that person or or is there something about it person or or is there something about it person or or is there something about it that's a refusal to accept the that's a refusal to accept the that's a refusal to accept the creaturely limit of death? What would creaturely limit of death? What would creaturely limit of death? What would you say to Crystal? you say to Crystal? you say to Crystal? >> Thank you. very interesting scenario and >> Thank you. very interesting scenario and >> Thank you. very interesting scenario and it's one that will be increasingly it's one that will be increasingly it's one that will be increasingly relevant in our emerging digital context relevant in our emerging digital context relevant in our emerging digital context and it's interesting I would think I and it's interesting I would think I and it's interesting I would think I would begin by just acknowledging first would begin by just acknowledging first would begin by just acknowledging first and foremost grief that accompanies loss and foremost grief that accompanies loss and foremost grief that accompanies loss and as believers we recognize grief is and as believers we recognize grief is and as believers we recognize grief is um is real and actually is an um is real and actually is an um is real and actually is an appropriate response to loss and appropriate response to loss and appropriate response to loss and suffering and it's even a a real suffering and it's even a a real suffering and it's even a a real recognition recognition recognition that death is not what was supposed to

that death is not what was supposed to that death is not what was supposed to be. So sometimes I think we can um as be. So sometimes I think we can um as be. So sometimes I think we can um as believers and in Christian communities believers and in Christian communities believers and in Christian communities we sometimes jump to hope which with the we sometimes jump to hope which with the we sometimes jump to hope which with the resurrection we do have hope and I we resurrection we do have hope and I we resurrection we do have hope and I we want to never be without that hope but want to never be without that hope but want to never be without that hope but also grief is an appropriate response to also grief is an appropriate response to also grief is an appropriate response to loss because it recognizes that this was loss because it recognizes that this was loss because it recognizes that this was not the way the world was supposed to be not the way the world was supposed to be not the way the world was supposed to be and that there's some something about and that there's some something about and that there's some something about our fracturing of our own identities um our fracturing of our own identities um our fracturing of our own identities um body from spirit as well as body from spirit as well as body from spirit as well as relationships that were meant to be long relationships that were meant to be long relationships that were meant to be long lasting and this desire for them to keep lasting and this desire for them to keep lasting and this desire for them to keep growing. growing. growing. My response, however, would be that I My response, however, would be that I My response, however, would be that I would be concerned and would urge um would be concerned and would urge um would be concerned and would urge um caution if not resistance to caution if not resistance to caution if not resistance to utilizing AI methods to upload resources utilizing AI methods to upload resources utilizing AI methods to upload resources of a former loved one. largely because of a former loved one. largely because of a former loved one. largely because um I think that we would be questioning um I think that we would be questioning um I think that we would be questioning then how is this changing then how is this changing then how is this changing the memory of who was as well as is this the memory of who was as well as is this the memory of who was as well as is this truly a reflection of the individual truly a reflection of the individual truly a reflection of the individual and this is where you get into and this is where you get into and this is where you get into interesting dynamics with grief and I'm interesting dynamics with grief and I'm interesting dynamics with grief and I'm thinking even CS Lewis in reflecting on thinking even CS Lewis in reflecting on thinking even CS Lewis in reflecting on um the grief observed which is his um the grief observed which is his um the grief observed which is his actual experience of reflecting on his actual experience of reflecting on his actual experience of reflecting on his own loss with his wife when you begin to own loss with his wife when you begin to own loss with his wife when you begin to want from that other person for your own want from that other person for your own want from that other person for your own sake who they would be in a sense of sake who they would be in a sense of sake who they would be in a sense of it's a twisted form of grief where it's a twisted form of grief where it's a twisted form of grief where you're kind of you're thinking about you're kind of you're thinking about you're kind of you're thinking about yourself if if I can describe that well

yourself if if I can describe that well yourself if if I can describe that well now part of you will always in the grief now part of you will always in the grief now part of you will always in the grief of let's say close loved ones of let's say close loved ones of let's say close loved ones grandparents family a marriage there is grandparents family a marriage there is grandparents family a marriage there is a sense of loss of the individual but a sense of loss of the individual but a sense of loss of the individual but also the the experience of that also the the experience of that also the the experience of that relationship which was forged between relationship which was forged between relationship which was forged between the two of you what I would say is not the two of you what I would say is not the two of you what I would say is not wrong is to keep a voicemail that you wrong is to keep a voicemail that you wrong is to keep a voicemail that you might listen to again, to keep a text might listen to again, to keep a text might listen to again, to keep a text that you could look at and and reflect that you could look at and and reflect that you could look at and and reflect on the goodness of what they said. It's on the goodness of what they said. It's on the goodness of what they said. It's like keeping a letter or a note or a like keeping a letter or a note or a like keeping a letter or a note or a photograph, right? Those are not those photograph, right? Those are not those photograph, right? Those are not those are actual helpful tools to reflect and are actual helpful tools to reflect and are actual helpful tools to reflect and remember on the person who they were and remember on the person who they were and remember on the person who they were and their words. Um, I have a note in my a their words. Um, I have a note in my a their words. Um, I have a note in my a Bible that my grandmother gave me that I Bible that my grandmother gave me that I Bible that my grandmother gave me that I reflect on that note that she gave me reflect on that note that she gave me reflect on that note that she gave me that is a prayer for me that I think that is a prayer for me that I think that is a prayer for me that I think goes beyond even her life because it's a goes beyond even her life because it's a goes beyond even her life because it's a prayer, right? It's extended through prayer, right? It's extended through prayer, right? It's extended through time. time. time. But that is different than uploading But that is different than uploading But that is different than uploading onto an AI server built by a corporation onto an AI server built by a corporation onto an AI server built by a corporation that through a pattern will now reflect that through a pattern will now reflect that through a pattern will now reflect pieces of who that individual was that I pieces of who that individual was that I pieces of who that individual was that I loved, but also can now change loved, but also can now change loved, but also can now change who they are and the way they would now who they are and the way they would now who they are and the way they would now respond to me. And there's actually an respond to me. And there's actually an respond to me. And there's actually an element of faith that is involved on the element of faith that is involved on the element of faith that is involved on the journey of life and accepting the limits journey of life and accepting the limits journey of life and accepting the limits that though we ache and grieve the loss that though we ache and grieve the loss that though we ache and grieve the loss of whoever that was at whatever stage of whoever that was at whatever stage of whoever that was at whatever stage they were in.

they were in. they were in. The role of faith is you are actually The role of faith is you are actually The role of faith is you are actually not alone on the journey of life if as a not alone on the journey of life if as a not alone on the journey of life if as a believer Christ is with you. Right? So believer Christ is with you. Right? So believer Christ is with you. Right? So something is still shared that um when something is still shared that um when something is still shared that um when there's a fellowship of communion with there's a fellowship of communion with there's a fellowship of communion with someone from the past, this is also someone from the past, this is also someone from the past, this is also projecting into the future. And this is projecting into the future. And this is projecting into the future. And this is what I would say. I don't want to look what I would say. I don't want to look what I would say. I don't want to look backwards at who they are, but I also backwards at who they are, but I also backwards at who they are, but I also want to think about who they are now. If want to think about who they are now. If want to think about who they are now. If they're a believer, they're in glory. they're a believer, they're in glory. they're a believer, they're in glory. And so actually And so actually And so actually there is a piece of um it was in chapel there is a piece of um it was in chapel there is a piece of um it was in chapel last week at Gordon Conwell. Pete James last week at Gordon Conwell. Pete James last week at Gordon Conwell. Pete James preached and he referenced uh this the preached and he referenced uh this the preached and he referenced uh this the um hymn is so sweet to trust in Jesus um hymn is so sweet to trust in Jesus um hymn is so sweet to trust in Jesus and he referenced it and this last week and he referenced it and this last week and he referenced it and this last week I found myself in one of a quiet time. I I found myself in one of a quiet time. I I found myself in one of a quiet time. I play the piano not for groups but for my play the piano not for groups but for my play the piano not for groups but for my for part of just devotional life and for part of just devotional life and for part of just devotional life and reflection and I'm I mean it's clunk you reflection and I'm I mean it's clunk you reflection and I'm I mean it's clunk you know it's I'm plucking out notes and know it's I'm plucking out notes and know it's I'm plucking out notes and it's sometimes hard work to give back it's sometimes hard work to give back it's sometimes hard work to give back into a hymn but there's something about into a hymn but there's something about into a hymn but there's something about playing a hymn that actually can both playing a hymn that actually can both playing a hymn that actually can both remind me of the past and can remind me remind me of the past and can remind me remind me of the past and can remind me of someone like my grandmother.

of someone like my grandmother. of someone like my grandmother. But there is something about memory that But there is something about memory that But there is something about memory that if it's tied to the eternal, I'm also if it's tied to the eternal, I'm also if it's tied to the eternal, I'm also now joining in with the saints in glory now joining in with the saints in glory now joining in with the saints in glory who are worshiping the living God that who are worshiping the living God that who are worshiping the living God that is actually alive and active. Now is actually alive and active. Now is actually alive and active. Now whether they are singing that particular whether they are singing that particular whether they are singing that particular song, but there is something I think song, but there is something I think song, but there is something I think about in the worship service, we about in the worship service, we about in the worship service, we actually do join in with the angels and actually do join in with the angels and actually do join in with the angels and those who are in glory worshiping that those who are in glory worshiping that those who are in glory worshiping that actually our hearts are aligned with actually our hearts are aligned with actually our hearts are aligned with them. There's there's a way that I would them. There's there's a way that I would them. There's there's a way that I would not say I pray to a grandparent. I just not say I pray to a grandparent. I just not say I pray to a grandparent. I just be clear about that. But there is a way be clear about that. But there is a way be clear about that. But there is a way that there's a communion with Christ that there's a communion with Christ that there's a communion with Christ that can still be shared across time and that can still be shared across time and that can still be shared across time and history if you want to think about it in history if you want to think about it in history if you want to think about it in that way. But it's still different than that way. But it's still different than that way. But it's still different than me calling upon some digital device me calling upon some digital device me calling upon some digital device which is actually I think more of a copy which is actually I think more of a copy which is actually I think more of a copy and even a projection from a pattern and even a projection from a pattern and even a projection from a pattern which isn't a real experience but which isn't a real experience but which isn't a real experience but actually turns in more into what I want actually turns in more into what I want actually turns in more into what I want them to be as opposed to who they them to be as opposed to who they them to be as opposed to who they actually were and actually maybe who actually were and actually maybe who actually were and actually maybe who they actually are they actually are they actually are you know in glory.

you know in glory. you know in glory. >> Yeah I it's a beautiful answer isn't it? >> Yeah I it's a beautiful answer isn't it? >> Yeah I it's a beautiful answer isn't it? the the great cloud of witnesses. What a the the great cloud of witnesses. What a the the great cloud of witnesses. What a what a cherished and precious reality what a cherished and precious reality what a cherished and precious reality that that is. I I I do just want to push that that is. I I I do just want to push that that is. I I I do just want to push a little bit further though a little bit further though a little bit further though >> because what what I'm hearing you saying >> because what what I'm hearing you saying >> because what what I'm hearing you saying is that that there's something is that that there's something is that that there's something arai something uncanny about this granny arai something uncanny about this granny arai something uncanny about this granny pot. And I think my my follow-up pot. And I think my my follow-up pot. And I think my my follow-up question is what is different then question is what is different then question is what is different then between Crystal just thinking in her own between Crystal just thinking in her own between Crystal just thinking in her own mind, I wonder what Granny would say to mind, I wonder what Granny would say to mind, I wonder what Granny would say to me today and coming up with, oh, I I me today and coming up with, oh, I I me today and coming up with, oh, I I know what Granny would say, and the know what Granny would say, and the know what Granny would say, and the Granny bot actually saying something. I Granny bot actually saying something. I Granny bot actually saying something. I I think you're saying those things are I think you're saying those things are I think you're saying those things are really really different to each other. really really different to each other. really really different to each other. How are they different? How are they different? How are they different? >> Mhm. I think you can ask the question >> Mhm. I think you can ask the question >> Mhm. I think you can ask the question about someone you knew from the past. about someone you knew from the past. about someone you knew from the past. What would they say in this situation What would they say in this situation What would they say in this situation based off of what you knew of their based off of what you knew of their based off of what you knew of their character? Granted, they are not there character? Granted, they are not there character? Granted, they are not there in the moment to say it, but there is in the moment to say it, but there is in the moment to say it, but there is something that resonates with the voice something that resonates with the voice something that resonates with the voice that you knew of who they were.

that you knew of who they were. that you knew of who they were. And I do think that's different than And I do think that's different than And I do think that's different than interacting with something that's interacting with something that's interacting with something that's digital. And I I am going to bring in digital. And I I am going to bring in digital. And I I am going to bring in Sherry Turkal here uh her work on like Sherry Turkal here uh her work on like Sherry Turkal here uh her work on like alterity indifference and her concern alterity indifference and her concern alterity indifference and her concern about using bots and relating to them in about using bots and relating to them in about using bots and relating to them in human ways because I think that's where human ways because I think that's where human ways because I think that's where you then blur into the land of you then blur into the land of you then blur into the land of projection projection projection and I actually think you are also and I actually think you are also and I actually think you are also removing yourself from the love of that removing yourself from the love of that removing yourself from the love of that individual who was individual who was individual who was their own end if that makes sense. And a their own end if that makes sense. And a their own end if that makes sense. And a philosopher does talk about uh uh he's a philosopher does talk about uh uh he's a philosopher does talk about uh uh he's a BC he was talking about the distinction BC he was talking about the distinction BC he was talking about the distinction between um having a relationship with AI between um having a relationship with AI between um having a relationship with AI which is in some ways not an actual which is in some ways not an actual which is in some ways not an actual different you don't have difference in different you don't have difference in different you don't have difference in goods a real friend you enter into a goods a real friend you enter into a goods a real friend you enter into a relationship with and they have their relationship with and they have their relationship with and they have their own end and good when I'm entering into own end and good when I'm entering into own end and good when I'm entering into a relationship with AI it is a a relationship with AI it is a a relationship with AI it is a reflection of actually what I am placing reflection of actually what I am placing reflection of actually what I am placing outwardly outwardly outwardly into that device. And so it's actually into that device. And so it's actually into that device. And so it's actually my own my own my own desire and my own desire and my own desire and my own wants that are coming back at me, if wants that are coming back at me, if wants that are coming back at me, if that makes sense. It's not truly the that makes sense. It's not truly the that makes sense. It's not truly the other. It's not truly distinctive.

other. It's not truly distinctive. other. It's not truly distinctive. And that's where we're getting into well And that's where we're getting into well And that's where we're getting into well of the whole host of questions around of the whole host of questions around of the whole host of questions around this emerging discipline and field this emerging discipline and field this emerging discipline and field around tech now with generative AI is around tech now with generative AI is around tech now with generative AI is what is the difference between human and what is the difference between human and what is the difference between human and machine and human in artificial machine and human in artificial machine and human in artificial intelligence and do we want to preserve intelligence and do we want to preserve intelligence and do we want to preserve that difference? that difference? that difference? >> Absolutely. And and I love how the way >> Absolutely. And and I love how the way >> Absolutely. And and I love how the way that that that AI suddenly is making us ask all these AI suddenly is making us ask all these AI suddenly is making us ask all these questions like what is that difference questions like what is that difference questions like what is that difference and therefore what is precious about and therefore what is precious about and therefore what is precious about human relationship? It's it's forcing us human relationship? It's it's forcing us human relationship? It's it's forcing us to really hone in on who we are as we to really hone in on who we are as we to really hone in on who we are as we try and work out what this thing called try and work out what this thing called try and work out what this thing called AI is that that we're presented with. AI is that that we're presented with. AI is that that we're presented with. And I think that's such a a precious And I think that's such a a precious And I think that's such a a precious moment for Christians because of course moment for Christians because of course moment for Christians because of course what who we are biblically speaking is what who we are biblically speaking is what who we are biblically speaking is is wonderful and such a rich is wonderful and such a rich is wonderful and such a rich truth to be able to to bring to a modern truth to be able to to bring to a modern truth to be able to to bring to a modern world that that doesn't have a a robust world that that doesn't have a a robust world that that doesn't have a a robust answer to that question.

answer to that question. answer to that question. I I wonder if you could press a little I I wonder if you could press a little I I wonder if you could press a little bit more into bit more into bit more into what AI is and and how we should think what AI is and and how we should think what AI is and and how we should think of it as Christians. You you've got this of it as Christians. You you've got this of it as Christians. You you've got this really vivid image uh in in your new really vivid image uh in in your new really vivid image uh in in your new book Restlessness and Belonging. You you book Restlessness and Belonging. You you book Restlessness and Belonging. You you call our digital moment a new Babel. Uh call our digital moment a new Babel. Uh call our digital moment a new Babel. Uh [clears throat] and then you you say [clears throat] and then you you say [clears throat] and then you you say Babel wasn't just about arrogance. It Babel wasn't just about arrogance. It Babel wasn't just about arrogance. It was about confusion. It was about was about confusion. It was about was about confusion. It was about fragmentation. I'd love you to speak a fragmentation. I'd love you to speak a fragmentation. I'd love you to speak a little bit if you could about how you little bit if you could about how you little bit if you could about how you you see AI through this lens of Babel. you see AI through this lens of Babel. you see AI through this lens of Babel. What is Babbellion about AI? It's a What is Babbellion about AI? It's a What is Babbellion about AI? It's a great question and it's a you know a great question and it's a you know a great question and it's a you know a motif I use both I think in the opening motif I use both I think in the opening motif I use both I think in the opening chapter and the closing chapter and chapter and the closing chapter and chapter and the closing chapter and others have used it but this idea of in others have used it but this idea of in others have used it but this idea of in Genesis 11 know what's going on at Babel Genesis 11 know what's going on at Babel Genesis 11 know what's going on at Babel Babel how we pronounce it but this idea Babel how we pronounce it but this idea Babel how we pronounce it but this idea of um to be like God that they wanted to of um to be like God that they wanted to of um to be like God that they wanted to be you know they could build a tower as be you know they could build a tower as be you know they could build a tower as high as the heavens to be like God in a high as the heavens to be like God in a high as the heavens to be like God in a sense of on their own terms I think is sense of on their own terms I think is sense of on their own terms I think is the assumption here and part of what I the assumption here and part of what I the assumption here and part of what I think And I talk about this more the think And I talk about this more the think And I talk about this more the ending of the book is it is the reversal ending of the book is it is the reversal ending of the book is it is the reversal of the first command to be fruitful and of the first command to be fruitful and of the first command to be fruitful and multiply and to fill the earth right multiply and to fill the earth right multiply and to fill the earth right which was to scatter and fill out here which was to scatter and fill out here which was to scatter and fill out here you see the movement and I teach it this you see the movement and I teach it this you see the movement and I teach it this way of they are coming together and they way of they are coming together and they way of they are coming together and they are building upward [clears throat] they are building upward [clears throat] they are building upward [clears throat] they are ignoring that command and of course are ignoring that command and of course are ignoring that command and of course it's to so that they can make a name for it's to so that they can make a name for it's to so that they can make a name for themselves and this idea is something

themselves and this idea is something themselves and this idea is something about them is actually concent about them is actually concent about them is actually concent concentrating power concentrating power concentrating power and in a sense of actually God's and in a sense of actually God's and in a sense of actually God's response to that is not destruction response to that is not destruction response to that is not destruction it is merciful and it actually spreads it is merciful and it actually spreads it is merciful and it actually spreads them out into the kind of multiplying them out into the kind of multiplying them out into the kind of multiplying again and it disperses power because again and it disperses power because again and it disperses power because power wasn't meant to be concentrated power wasn't meant to be concentrated power wasn't meant to be concentrated and I've actually was having a and I've actually was having a and I've actually was having a conversation in some ways this is the um conversation in some ways this is the um conversation in some ways this is the um response to what you might call the response to what you might call the response to what you might call the first monopoly uh in a way that they first monopoly uh in a way that they first monopoly uh in a way that they were trying to make a name for were trying to make a name for were trying to make a name for themselves and it was a concentrated themselves and it was a concentrated themselves and it was a concentrated sense of power and of course the great sense of power and of course the great sense of power and of course the great reversal is Acts two when the giving of reversal is Acts two when the giving of reversal is Acts two when the giving of the spirit when it's actually the the spirit when it's actually the the spirit when it's actually the multiple languages then coming back multiple languages then coming back multiple languages then coming back together around together around together around the common good of who God is who is the common good of who God is who is the common good of who God is who is different from them that brings them different from them that brings them different from them that brings them together in a unified way. So go back to together in a unified way. So go back to together in a unified way. So go back to Babel and I think part of it is this Babel and I think part of it is this Babel and I think part of it is this desire to make a name for yourselves to desire to make a name for yourselves to desire to make a name for yourselves to be like God which is this question of be like God which is this question of be like God which is this question of what is the motive and what is our what is the motive and what is our what is the motive and what is our desire behind it um which is what I desire behind it um which is what I desire behind it um which is what I think we always have to ask in our think we always have to ask in our think we always have to ask in our creative projects what is our motive and creative projects what is our motive and creative projects what is our motive and goal but the other component whether goal but the other component whether goal but the other component whether it's this question of power but is this it's this question of power but is this it's this question of power but is this what I look at a lot in the opening what I look at a lot in the opening what I look at a lot in the opening chapters one and two is it is confusing chapters one and two is it is confusing chapters one and two is it is confusing because whether It's the multiple because whether It's the multiple because whether It's the multiple languages that is the result. It is also languages that is the result. It is also languages that is the result. It is also think of all the miscommunication that think of all the miscommunication that think of all the miscommunication that takes place through really what I think

takes place through really what I think takes place through really what I think is decontextualized information is decontextualized information is decontextualized information because I talk about knowledge without because I talk about knowledge without because I talk about knowledge without wisdom and it's this idea of we have all wisdom and it's this idea of we have all wisdom and it's this idea of we have all access to all kinds of information access to all kinds of information access to all kinds of information but we don't know how to interpret it. but we don't know how to interpret it. but we don't know how to interpret it. And this is where you could say mass And this is where you could say mass And this is where you could say mass media and um uh Neil Postman and you media and um uh Neil Postman and you media and um uh Neil Postman and you know he was looking at mass media before know he was looking at mass media before know he was looking at mass media before we got to today's you know tech world we got to today's you know tech world we got to today's you know tech world with the both the internet and phones with the both the internet and phones with the both the internet and phones and all and all of the apps and and all and all of the apps and and all and all of the apps and everything. Uh but he was looking at everything. Uh but he was looking at everything. Uh but he was looking at just the the advent of the telegraph and just the the advent of the telegraph and just the the advent of the telegraph and that it was one of the first times you that it was one of the first times you that it was one of the first times you could you could separate communication could you could separate communication could you could separate communication from time, space, location. from time, space, location. from time, space, location. And so words or message could now you And so words or message could now you And so words or message could now you know be spread at what was the pace of know be spread at what was the pace of know be spread at what was the pace of you know the railway uh as fast as a you know the railway uh as fast as a you know the railway uh as fast as a railway could spread information. And railway could spread information. And railway could spread information. And there was a way that information now there was a way that information now there was a way that information now became commodifying became commodifying became commodifying because it was removed from its original because it was removed from its original because it was removed from its original location and you could now buy or sell location and you could now buy or sell location and you could now buy or sell information.

information. information. And that is where we find ourselves And that is where we find ourselves And that is where we find ourselves today in a hashtag world with today in a hashtag world with today in a hashtag world with information both image and messaging information both image and messaging information both image and messaging both photography which is sent all over both photography which is sent all over both photography which is sent all over you know the internet and we just look you know the internet and we just look you know the internet and we just look at images that are removed from the at images that are removed from the at images that are removed from the original context and we look at original context and we look at original context and we look at information and there's just a lot of information and there's just a lot of information and there's just a lot of confusion and of course I'll ask my confusion and of course I'll ask my confusion and of course I'll ask my students in class like what is the first students in class like what is the first students in class like what is the first thing they learn in their you know when thing they learn in their you know when thing they learn in their you know when they're learning languages and biblical they're learning languages and biblical they're learning languages and biblical interpretation and how do you interpret interpretation and how do you interpret interpretation and how do you interpret a passage and one you know besides a passage and one you know besides a passage and one you know besides language skills it is context. language skills it is context. language skills it is context. context is so significant for context is so significant for context is so significant for understanding understanding understanding and here we are in a sense I think the and here we are in a sense I think the and here we are in a sense I think the new babble is that we have all this new babble is that we have all this new babble is that we have all this information and it's so removed from information and it's so removed from information and it's so removed from context and meaning and that that is context and meaning and that that is context and meaning and that that is adding to the confusion as well as the adding to the confusion as well as the adding to the confusion as well as the miscommunication and people are we can miscommunication and people are we can miscommunication and people are we can weaponize words you know there's a lot weaponize words you know there's a lot weaponize words you know there's a lot of things that we can do that's of things that we can do that's of things that we can do that's confusing in this particular moment confusing in this particular moment confusing in this particular moment and and that gets into the question I'll and and that gets into the question I'll and and that gets into the question I'll follow up with generative AI and my follow up with generative AI and my follow up with generative AI and my concern is that we are now in a whole concern is that we are now in a whole concern is that we are now in a whole new world of what is truthfulness when new world of what is truthfulness when new world of what is truthfulness when we're looking at an image or where we're we're looking at an image or where we're we're looking at an image or where we're receiving information and is it receiving information and is it receiving information and is it fabricated is it AI you know embellished fabricated is it AI you know embellished fabricated is it AI you know embellished and so that's a whole new level of and so that's a whole new level of and so that's a whole new level of confusion and it's removed from its confusion and it's removed from its confusion and it's removed from its original source we could say who is original source we could say who is original source we could say who is communicating it's a really interesting communicating it's a really interesting communicating it's a really interesting juosition isn't it you mentioned two juosition isn't it you mentioned two juosition isn't it you mentioned two things there you you mentioned this idea things there you you mentioned this idea things there you you mentioned this idea of monopoly and a concentration power

of monopoly and a concentration power of monopoly and a concentration power and also a confusion. It's two things and also a confusion. It's two things and also a confusion. It's two things that that you would imagine wouldn't that that you would imagine wouldn't that that you would imagine wouldn't necessarily go together, but it in AI necessarily go together, but it in AI necessarily go together, but it in AI they they absolutely do. they they absolutely do. they they absolutely do. >> And I I I wonder if you could talk just >> And I I I wonder if you could talk just >> And I I I wonder if you could talk just a little more about the the first of a little more about the the first of a little more about the the first of those, the idea that AI is rebellion in those, the idea that AI is rebellion in those, the idea that AI is rebellion in the sense of being a a monopolistic the sense of being a a monopolistic the sense of being a a monopolistic concentration of power. I in what ways concentration of power. I in what ways concentration of power. I in what ways do we see that particularly in the large do we see that particularly in the large do we see that particularly in the large language models that we use today like language models that we use today like language models that we use today like like Charg or Gemini? How are they like Charg or Gemini? How are they like Charg or Gemini? How are they concentrating power? concentrating power? concentrating power? >> Mhm. That's a great question. I think it >> Mhm. That's a great question. I think it >> Mhm. That's a great question. I think it was Jared Laneir if I'm saying his name was Jared Laneir if I'm saying his name was Jared Laneir if I'm saying his name accurately um talked about if you use accurately um talked about if you use accurately um talked about if you use that word. It's not like one singular that word. It's not like one singular that word. It's not like one singular corporation, but it is a few corporation, but it is a few corporation, but it is a few corporations that hold a lot of power. corporations that hold a lot of power. corporations that hold a lot of power. And that's what you see, I think, with And that's what you see, I think, with And that's what you see, I think, with Silicon Valley since the advent. Well, Silicon Valley since the advent. Well, Silicon Valley since the advent. Well, you could say internet tools or web you could say internet tools or web you could say internet tools or web browsers and things like that. But then browsers and things like that. But then browsers and things like that. But then certainly when you get to the social certainly when you get to the social certainly when you get to the social media apps, they're the few. And then media apps, they're the few. And then media apps, they're the few. And then you now have the AI and um corporations.

you now have the AI and um corporations. you now have the AI and um corporations. And there's just a few that have a lot And there's just a few that have a lot And there's just a few that have a lot of power. And with that comes great of power. And with that comes great of power. And with that comes great responsibility um to the public as well responsibility um to the public as well responsibility um to the public as well as questions about there's always been as questions about there's always been as questions about there's always been that public polity question of is it that public polity question of is it that public polity question of is it good to have too much power in one or good to have too much power in one or good to have too much power in one or few places and I would say behind the few places and I would say behind the few places and I would say behind the idea of democracy at least um in certain idea of democracy at least um in certain idea of democracy at least um in certain you know locations was this idea of you know locations was this idea of you know locations was this idea of balance of power because there was this balance of power because there was this balance of power because there was this understanding that too much power can be understanding that too much power can be understanding that too much power can be is is is can uh our sin in nature as we are can uh our sin in nature as we are can uh our sin in nature as we are corruption you know corruption you know corruption you know um what is it absolute power corrupts um what is it absolute power corrupts um what is it absolute power corrupts absolutely you know this this phrase absolutely you know this this phrase absolutely you know this this phrase that we use but this idea you need a that we use but this idea you need a that we use but this idea you need a balance of power because of the balance of power because of the balance of power because of the realities of sin and we need realities of sin and we need realities of sin and we need accountability so that's significant for accountability so that's significant for accountability so that's significant for even if we believe in the private sector even if we believe in the private sector even if we believe in the private sector and I think capitalism uh is a good in and I think capitalism uh is a good in and I think capitalism uh is a good in the sense of it's a helpful uh but it's the sense of it's a helpful uh but it's the sense of it's a helpful uh but it's not perfect um I believe in redeeming not perfect um I believe in redeeming not perfect um I believe in redeeming capitalism you take this on in your own capitalism you take this on in your own capitalism you take this on in your own book right there's no one um political book right there's no one um political book right there's no one um political structure that's perfect. There's no one structure that's perfect. There's no one structure that's perfect. There's no one economic structure that's perfect. We're economic structure that's perfect. We're economic structure that's perfect. We're all on this side of the fall. And so we all on this side of the fall. And so we all on this side of the fall. And so we need accountability in our structures.

need accountability in our structures. need accountability in our structures. Um and so those these corporations I Um and so those these corporations I Um and so those these corporations I would actually suggest maybe move too would actually suggest maybe move too would actually suggest maybe move too quickly. I would think with social media quickly. I would think with social media quickly. I would think with social media I do believe they moved quickly. And did I do believe they moved quickly. And did I do believe they moved quickly. And did we test these out? you know, if this was we test these out? you know, if this was we test these out? you know, if this was a drug trial, clinical trial, if you a drug trial, clinical trial, if you a drug trial, clinical trial, if you were in um bioeththics, you would have were in um bioeththics, you would have were in um bioeththics, you would have to test out and you'd have to question a to test out and you'd have to question a to test out and you'd have to question a whole lot of ways that this impacted the whole lot of ways that this impacted the whole lot of ways that this impacted the public. Likewise, you'd have to do that. public. Likewise, you'd have to do that. public. Likewise, you'd have to do that. Um there was a wonderful colleague at a Um there was a wonderful colleague at a Um there was a wonderful colleague at a conference at Harvard and I wish I could conference at Harvard and I wish I could conference at Harvard and I wish I could call his name at the moment to attribute call his name at the moment to attribute call his name at the moment to attribute everyone. He's in the UK and he was just everyone. He's in the UK and he was just everyone. He's in the UK and he was just talking about airlines and the ways in talking about airlines and the ways in talking about airlines and the ways in which you know airlines obviously have which you know airlines obviously have which you know airlines obviously have to testr run airplanes. you know, to testr run airplanes. you know, to testr run airplanes. you know, there's safety procedures and so there there's safety procedures and so there there's safety procedures and so there is some nonprofit works around safety is some nonprofit works around safety is some nonprofit works around safety and security, you know, questioning and security, you know, questioning and security, you know, questioning trying to hold AI accountable, but I trying to hold AI accountable, but I trying to hold AI accountable, but I think we've moved faster than our our think we've moved faster than our our think we've moved faster than our our our regulations and concerns about our regulations and concerns about our regulations and concerns about testing these out. testing these out. testing these out. >> I I think you're absolutely right. And >> I I think you're absolutely right. And >> I I think you're absolutely right. And the irony of the situation is that we've the irony of the situation is that we've the irony of the situation is that we've been here before, haven't we, with been here before, haven't we, with been here before, haven't we, with social media. We we run ahead of social media. We we run ahead of social media. We we run ahead of ourselves there. And now, you know, with ourselves there. And now, you know, with ourselves there. And now, you know, with people like Jonathan Hyde bringing out people like Jonathan Hyde bringing out people like Jonathan Hyde bringing out his research, we we're starting to think his research, we we're starting to think his research, we we're starting to think we might need to roll back. And here we we might need to roll back. And here we we might need to roll back. And here we are running ahead again.

are running ahead again. are running ahead again. >> If we could turn now from the the sort >> If we could turn now from the the sort >> If we could turn now from the the sort of corporate side, the the AI of corporate side, the the AI of corporate side, the the AI corporations corporations corporations to the users of of large language to the users of of large language to the users of of large language models. One of the questions we're models. One of the questions we're models. One of the questions we're really trying to probe in these episodes really trying to probe in these episodes really trying to probe in these episodes is is what is AI doing to us as is is what is AI doing to us as is is what is AI doing to us as individuals and and as users? And you've individuals and and as users? And you've individuals and and as users? And you've got this really powerful contrast uh got this really powerful contrast uh got this really powerful contrast uh between on the one hand what you call between on the one hand what you call between on the one hand what you call restless curiosity and on the other hand restless curiosity and on the other hand restless curiosity and on the other hand restful wisdom. Uh and I' I'd love you restful wisdom. Uh and I' I'd love you restful wisdom. Uh and I' I'd love you just to unpack that a little bit. What's just to unpack that a little bit. What's just to unpack that a little bit. What's the difference between curiosity and the difference between curiosity and the difference between curiosity and wisdom? And how is AI pushing us to be wisdom? And how is AI pushing us to be wisdom? And how is AI pushing us to be curious in in a way that perhaps isn't curious in in a way that perhaps isn't curious in in a way that perhaps isn't wise? wise? wise? >> Yes. Now great questions. There's this >> Yes. Now great questions. There's this >> Yes. Now great questions. There's this idea about spectacle, at least it's the idea about spectacle, at least it's the idea about spectacle, at least it's the the word and term that's used to the word and term that's used to the word and term that's used to describe the way Augustine talks about describe the way Augustine talks about describe the way Augustine talks about curiosity and kind of a disordered curiosity and kind of a disordered curiosity and kind of a disordered curiosity or disordered form of love. Um curiosity or disordered form of love. Um curiosity or disordered form of love. Um there's been some writings of Thomas there's been some writings of Thomas there's been some writings of Thomas Aquinus and looking at ordered and Aquinus and looking at ordered and Aquinus and looking at ordered and disordered kinds of curiosity. But in disordered kinds of curiosity. But in disordered kinds of curiosity. But in this sense, spectacle is when he would this sense, spectacle is when he would this sense, spectacle is when he would talk about the theater and the talk about the theater and the talk about the theater and the gladatorial games and there's an element gladatorial games and there's an element gladatorial games and there's an element of you begin to enjoy the experience of of you begin to enjoy the experience of of you begin to enjoy the experience of in that sense he was questioning the in that sense he was questioning the in that sense he was questioning the love of violence. Um but you begin to love of violence. Um but you begin to love of violence. Um but you begin to it's the questioning of are you loving it's the questioning of are you loving it's the questioning of are you loving an experience for its own sake as an experience for its own sake as an experience for its own sake as opposed to what is the true we would opposed to what is the true we would opposed to what is the true we would question what is the end goal of

question what is the end goal of question what is the end goal of pursuing that that habit or that choice pursuing that that habit or that choice pursuing that that habit or that choice or that action right so with spectacle or that action right so with spectacle or that action right so with spectacle here in the 21st century we are here in the 21st century we are here in the 21st century we are bombarded with images these you know the bombarded with images these you know the bombarded with images these you know the AI knows the algorithms know our often AI knows the algorithms know our often AI knows the algorithms know our often our interests and they because of our our interests and they because of our our interests and they because of our clicks they So what we enjoy that I mean clicks they So what we enjoy that I mean clicks they So what we enjoy that I mean here I study this and if I open up my here I study this and if I open up my here I study this and if I open up my you know my Google search or whatnot it you know my Google search or whatnot it you know my Google search or whatnot it will immediately feed me articles or will immediately feed me articles or will immediately feed me articles or those my interests and I can find myself those my interests and I can find myself those my interests and I can find myself just starting to go down the whole you just starting to go down the whole you just starting to go down the whole you know looking at articles and I'm like no know looking at articles and I'm like no know looking at articles and I'm like no no no I have so much time um or your no no I have so much time um or your no no I have so much time um or your shopping habits or you know the fact shopping habits or you know the fact shopping habits or you know the fact that you have children or whatever it that you have children or whatever it that you have children or whatever it knows your desires and your appetites knows your desires and your appetites knows your desires and your appetites and so it's going to play on that and and so it's going to play on that and and so it's going to play on that and part of what spectacle it's interesting part of what spectacle it's interesting part of what spectacle it's interesting um uh um super bloom that came out, um uh um super bloom that came out, um uh um super bloom that came out, Nicholas Carr, he talks about this idea Nicholas Carr, he talks about this idea Nicholas Carr, he talks about this idea in like kind of like a Darwinian sense in like kind of like a Darwinian sense in like kind of like a Darwinian sense of surv survival for our sake of of surv survival for our sake of of surv survival for our sake of survival. We kind of scan the horizon survival. We kind of scan the horizon survival. We kind of scan the horizon and we do this a lot. He says the and we do this a lot. He says the and we do this a lot. He says the internet plays to that and it gives us internet plays to that and it gives us internet plays to that and it gives us this cuz we're constantly looking and this cuz we're constantly looking and this cuz we're constantly looking and you're wondering if something else is you're wondering if something else is you're wondering if something else is out there, which is part of the FOMO out there, which is part of the FOMO out there, which is part of the FOMO aspect. It makes you constantly kind of aspect. It makes you constantly kind of aspect. It makes you constantly kind of scanning at the superficial level.

scanning at the superficial level. scanning at the superficial level. Whereas when you actually make a choice Whereas when you actually make a choice Whereas when you actually make a choice and this is whether you're committing to and this is whether you're committing to and this is whether you're committing to a subject or even if it's about a subject or even if it's about a subject or even if it's about relationships. I mean in some ways I've relationships. I mean in some ways I've relationships. I mean in some ways I've had students reflect on even e-harmony had students reflect on even e-harmony had students reflect on even e-harmony or whatever. These dating apps are kind or whatever. These dating apps are kind or whatever. These dating apps are kind of actually designed in a way to keep of actually designed in a way to keep of actually designed in a way to keep you looking instead of uh maybe you're you looking instead of uh maybe you're you looking instead of uh maybe you're searching for a mate or whatnot. But you searching for a mate or whatnot. But you searching for a mate or whatnot. But you know they're they're they're kind of know they're they're they're kind of know they're they're they're kind of they're they give you this you're they're they give you this you're they're they give you this you're searching and you're you know it's quick searching and you're you know it's quick searching and you're you know it's quick judgments. So it actually forms a habit judgments. So it actually forms a habit judgments. So it actually forms a habit of quick judgments as opposed to often I of quick judgments as opposed to often I of quick judgments as opposed to often I mean in the sense of when you make a mean in the sense of when you make a mean in the sense of when you make a choice in a relationship and certainly choice in a relationship and certainly choice in a relationship and certainly marriage it's a commitment that I'm marriage it's a commitment that I'm marriage it's a commitment that I'm choosing you and I am foregoing I'm no choosing you and I am foregoing I'm no choosing you and I am foregoing I'm no longer looking I'm no longer s you know longer looking I'm no longer s you know longer looking I'm no longer s you know the horizon and actually that's when you the horizon and actually that's when you the horizon and actually that's when you get to know someone more deeply. So with get to know someone more deeply. So with get to know someone more deeply. So with every choice we make if you call it a every choice we make if you call it a every choice we make if you call it a limitation [snorts] it is a limiting limitation [snorts] it is a limiting limitation [snorts] it is a limiting factor that I'm now choosing this I'm factor that I'm now choosing this I'm factor that I'm now choosing this I'm forgoing that but it is now possibility forgoing that but it is now possibility forgoing that but it is now possibility because you can now you engage in a because you can now you engage in a because you can now you engage in a comment relationship from a biblical comment relationship from a biblical comment relationship from a biblical perspective that's the same if you're perspective that's the same if you're perspective that's the same if you're going to specialize let's talk about you going to specialize let's talk about you going to specialize let's talk about you know in uh you're going to become a know in uh you're going to become a know in uh you're going to become a specialist in in some you know what it specialist in in some you know what it specialist in in some you know what it is we study right I'm no longer I'm a is we study right I'm no longer I'm a is we study right I'm no longer I'm a generalist but the fact is I'm going to generalist but the fact is I'm going to generalist but the fact is I'm going to make a choice and I'm going to go more make a choice and I'm going to go more make a choice and I'm going to go more deeply into a subject I'm going to have deeply into a subject I'm going to have deeply into a subject I'm going to have a deeper understanding as opposed to and a deeper understanding as opposed to and a deeper understanding as opposed to and which is the deep thinking and the which is the deep thinking and the which is the deep thinking and the reflection which is deeper than just reflection which is deeper than just reflection which is deeper than just constantly scan the horizon which this constantly scan the horizon which this constantly scan the horizon which this kind of more superficial level which can kind of more superficial level which can kind of more superficial level which can actually be quite exhausting.

actually be quite exhausting. actually be quite exhausting. um nor does it actually maybe um nor does it actually maybe um nor does it actually maybe understanding the meaning of whatever we understanding the meaning of whatever we understanding the meaning of whatever we go back to the idea of images if I look go back to the idea of images if I look go back to the idea of images if I look at a lot of images I may be missing the at a lot of images I may be missing the at a lot of images I may be missing the point of that image and and it also can point of that image and and it also can point of that image and and it also can become a distorted goal of whatever it become a distorted goal of whatever it become a distorted goal of whatever it is I'm seeking from that image as is I'm seeking from that image as is I'm seeking from that image as opposed to what that image was meant to opposed to what that image was meant to opposed to what that image was meant to be or that that message was supposed to be or that that message was supposed to be or that that message was supposed to be in all these things. be in all these things. be in all these things. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> I think that's a fascinating insight >> I think that's a fascinating insight >> I think that's a fascinating insight certainly on dating apps. I'd never certainly on dating apps. I'd never certainly on dating apps. I'd never thought of it that way before that that thought of it that way before that that thought of it that way before that that their whole interest is that we do not their whole interest is that we do not their whole interest is that we do not find find find >> a mate that we stick with. It's that we >> a mate that we stick with. It's that we >> a mate that we stick with. It's that we keep browsing and are always just on the keep browsing and are always just on the keep browsing and are always just on the cusp of making a decision but never cusp of making a decision but never cusp of making a decision but never actually doing it. And and and I love actually doing it. And and and I love actually doing it. And and and I love this language of covenant you were using this language of covenant you were using this language of covenant you were using there. Perhaps the only covenant that there. Perhaps the only covenant that there. Perhaps the only covenant that the large language model companies want the large language model companies want the large language model companies want us to enter into is to use their model us to enter into is to use their model us to enter into is to use their model rather than anyone else's. And then once rather than anyone else's. And then once rather than anyone else's. And then once we're doing that, they want to keep us we're doing that, they want to keep us we're doing that, they want to keep us browsing and keep us curious in this browsing and keep us curious in this browsing and keep us curious in this Austinian way uh rather than uh in any Austinian way uh rather than uh in any Austinian way uh rather than uh in any other covenants uh with anything else.

other covenants uh with anything else. other covenants uh with anything else. >> My wonderful students that have talked >> My wonderful students that have talked >> My wonderful students that have talked about this. So the dating apps came one about this. So the dating apps came one about this. So the dating apps came one of my wonderful students was talking of my wonderful students was talking of my wonderful students was talking about this. So it's fascinating to think about this. So it's fascinating to think about this. So it's fascinating to think I about our habits, right? It is our I about our habits, right? It is our I about our habits, right? It is our very habits that is actually forming and very habits that is actually forming and very habits that is actually forming and that's what I think we're not attuned to that's what I think we're not attuned to that's what I think we're not attuned to and part of what I hope in this book and and part of what I hope in this book and and part of what I hope in this book and part of the broader conversation is to part of the broader conversation is to part of the broader conversation is to be aware of how the algorithms are be aware of how the algorithms are be aware of how the algorithms are shaping us and they are changing our shaping us and they are changing our shaping us and they are changing our habits and they're actually now training habits and they're actually now training habits and they're actually now training me to be more of the spectacle observer me to be more of the spectacle observer me to be more of the spectacle observer as opposed to um maybe the learner and as opposed to um maybe the learner and as opposed to um maybe the learner and certainly we could get into the question certainly we could get into the question certainly we could get into the question of commitment uh when I get to the deep of commitment uh when I get to the deep of commitment uh when I get to the deep caring or the deep learning um that caring or the deep learning um that caring or the deep learning um that coincides with relationships coincides with relationships coincides with relationships and faithful living. and faithful living. and faithful living. >> Yeah. Thank you. Look, I I think it's >> Yeah. Thank you. Look, I I think it's >> Yeah. Thank you. Look, I I think it's high time we um open the Bible in this high time we um open the Bible in this high time we um open the Bible in this conversation. We've identified conversation. We've identified conversation. We've identified [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] a lot of problems with AI and um what a lot of problems with AI and um what a lot of problems with AI and um what might be wrong with it. And might be wrong with it. And might be wrong with it. And what I' I'd love to hear is in all your what I' I'd love to hear is in all your what I' I'd love to hear is in all your own thinking about these issues and and own thinking about these issues and and own thinking about these issues and and you know you thought very deeply. You've you know you thought very deeply. You've you know you thought very deeply. You've you've written this wonderful book, you've written this wonderful book, you've written this wonderful book, Restlessness and Belonging. What are Restlessness and Belonging. What are Restlessness and Belonging. What are perhaps some of the Bible passages that perhaps some of the Bible passages that perhaps some of the Bible passages that have been most helped to you in picking have been most helped to you in picking have been most helped to you in picking your way through these questions about your way through these questions about your way through these questions about AI?

AI? AI? >> It's a great question and there are many >> It's a great question and there are many >> It's a great question and there are many scriptures that we could turn to. Um, I scriptures that we could turn to. Um, I scriptures that we could turn to. Um, I will acknowledge Genesis 1 and 2, the will acknowledge Genesis 1 and 2, the will acknowledge Genesis 1 and 2, the idea of Sabbath was key and then tied to idea of Sabbath was key and then tied to idea of Sabbath was key and then tied to Hebrews 4, this idea that we're entering Hebrews 4, this idea that we're entering Hebrews 4, this idea that we're entering into the final Sabbath rest was key for into the final Sabbath rest was key for into the final Sabbath rest was key for both my first book and that is going to both my first book and that is going to both my first book and that is going to come out in the second book when I come out in the second book when I come out in the second book when I explore Sabbath and the good and limits. explore Sabbath and the good and limits. explore Sabbath and the good and limits. So, that's a lot of the framework I want So, that's a lot of the framework I want So, that's a lot of the framework I want to think about. The other thing is um I to think about. The other thing is um I to think about. The other thing is um I thought a lot about you know Psalm 115 thought a lot about you know Psalm 115 thought a lot about you know Psalm 115 with this in Isaiah Psalm 135 talking with this in Isaiah Psalm 135 talking with this in Isaiah Psalm 135 talking about idols. You know we can create about idols. You know we can create about idols. You know we can create things with our hands but do they their things with our hands but do they their things with our hands but do they their idols are silver and gold made by human idols are silver and gold made by human idols are silver and gold made by human hands is a Psalm 115 4-8. They have hands is a Psalm 115 4-8. They have hands is a Psalm 115 4-8. They have mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot mouths but cannot speak, eyes but cannot see. They have ears but cannot hear, see. They have ears but cannot hear, see. They have ears but cannot hear, noses but cannot smell. They have hands noses but cannot smell. They have hands noses but cannot smell. They have hands but cannot feel, feet but cannot walk. but cannot feel, feet but cannot walk. but cannot feel, feet but cannot walk. nor can they utter a sound with their nor can they utter a sound with their nor can they utter a sound with their throats. And this is about the things throats. And this is about the things throats. And this is about the things that they make. And then verse 8 of that they make. And then verse 8 of that they make. And then verse 8 of Psalm 115 says, "Those who make them Psalm 115 says, "Those who make them Psalm 115 says, "Those who make them will be like them, and so will all who will be like them, and so will all who will be like them, and so will all who trust in them."

trust in them." trust in them." And there's a way that the things and And there's a way that the things and And there's a way that the things and projects we fashion with our hands, we projects we fashion with our hands, we projects we fashion with our hands, we were made to create. That's one of the were made to create. That's one of the were made to create. That's one of the ways that we image God. I think it's a ways that we image God. I think it's a ways that we image God. I think it's a good gift, good work. And you know to be good gift, good work. And you know to be good gift, good work. And you know to be image of God part of that the good is image of God part of that the good is image of God part of that the good is our creative capacities but we have to our creative capacities but we have to our creative capacities but we have to ask what is it we're making and then and ask what is it we're making and then and ask what is it we're making and then and then what we're making what are we then what we're making what are we then what we're making what are we hoping from those things we make whether hoping from those things we make whether hoping from those things we make whether that goes back to the golden calf you that goes back to the golden calf you that goes back to the golden calf you know think about Aaron or just hear the know think about Aaron or just hear the know think about Aaron or just hear the things that they make that they then things that they make that they then things that they make that they then turn their hopes toward them and turn their hopes toward them and turn their hopes toward them and ironically are looking for some kind of ironically are looking for some kind of ironically are looking for some kind of response from them and that does make me response from them and that does make me response from them and that does make me think a lot about what is it we look for think a lot about what is it we look for think a lot about what is it we look for in the generative AI in particular, is in the generative AI in particular, is in the generative AI in particular, is it actually an aid to help as a tool it actually an aid to help as a tool it actually an aid to help as a tool with human knowledge for discovery, with human knowledge for discovery, with human knowledge for discovery, which I think we could get into that which I think we could get into that which I think we could get into that could be a more appropriate use, but it could be a more appropriate use, but it could be a more appropriate use, but it it certainly can become more slippery it certainly can become more slippery it certainly can become more slippery when we begin to ask the questions about when we begin to ask the questions about when we begin to ask the questions about relationships. relationships. relationships. And my concern And my concern And my concern specifically and with dialogue partners specifically and with dialogue partners specifically and with dialogue partners that are in the tech world um that I am that are in the tech world um that I am that are in the tech world um that I am very lerary of replacing humans and this very lerary of replacing humans and this very lerary of replacing humans and this idea that I would want a re a idea that I would want a re a idea that I would want a re a relationship with the AI. Um that to me relationship with the AI. Um that to me relationship with the AI. Um that to me sounds more like in my beginning to sounds more like in my beginning to sounds more like in my beginning to imitate them which ironically in some imitate them which ironically in some imitate them which ironically in some ways that was what the computer was the ways that was what the computer was the ways that was what the computer was the imitation game. This idea it is some imitation game. This idea it is some imitation game. This idea it is some outro. It is a it is a way of being a

outro. It is a it is a way of being a outro. It is a it is a way of being a pattern. Certainly the algorithms are a pattern. Certainly the algorithms are a pattern. Certainly the algorithms are a pattern of in that is uh they are pattern of in that is uh they are pattern of in that is uh they are generating from the patterns of our generating from the patterns of our generating from the patterns of our information that is now you know copied information that is now you know copied information that is now you know copied and uploaded and these kinds of things and uploaded and these kinds of things and uploaded and these kinds of things and looking at human knowledge and so and looking at human knowledge and so and looking at human knowledge and so this is do I want to turn to that this is do I want to turn to that this is do I want to turn to that pattern to then be a source of pattern to then be a source of pattern to then be a source of relatedness. [snorts] relatedness. [snorts] relatedness. [snorts] You know these are my concerns that it You know these are my concerns that it You know these are my concerns that it would be where it turns into an idol. would be where it turns into an idol. would be where it turns into an idol. And a lot of what we think about in And a lot of what we think about in And a lot of what we think about in ethics I think is Romans 12 1-2. And I ethics I think is Romans 12 1-2. And I ethics I think is Romans 12 1-2. And I am reading from the NIV today just so am reading from the NIV today just so am reading from the NIV today just so you know. But just you know um therefore you know. But just you know um therefore you know. But just you know um therefore I urge you brothers uh in view of God's I urge you brothers uh in view of God's I urge you brothers uh in view of God's mercy to offer your bodies as living mercy to offer your bodies as living mercy to offer your bodies as living sacrifices holy and pleasing to God. sacrifices holy and pleasing to God. sacrifices holy and pleasing to God. This is your spiritual act of worship. This is your spiritual act of worship. This is your spiritual act of worship. Do not conform any longer to the pattern Do not conform any longer to the pattern Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the of this world, but be transformed by the of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be renewing of your mind. Then you will be renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will able to test and approve what God's will able to test and approve what God's will is, his good, pleasing, and perfect is, his good, pleasing, and perfect is, his good, pleasing, and perfect will. will. will. Um, a lot of what we do in Christian Um, a lot of what we do in Christian Um, a lot of what we do in Christian ethics today is, you know, we we could ethics today is, you know, we we could ethics today is, you know, we we could try to do a lot of proof texting. I try to do a lot of proof texting. I try to do a lot of proof texting. I don't want to do that with whatever a don't want to do that with whatever a don't want to do that with whatever a hot button issue is because a lot of the hot button issue is because a lot of the hot button issue is because a lot of the issues today are not necessarily what issues today are not necessarily what issues today are not necessarily what the issue was, you know, when these the issue was, you know, when these the issue was, you know, when these original authors were writing. And yet original authors were writing. And yet original authors were writing. And yet there are principles and ideas because I there are principles and ideas because I there are principles and ideas because I think humans haven't changed and our think humans haven't changed and our think humans haven't changed and our appetites haven't changed and nothing appetites haven't changed and nothing appetites haven't changed and nothing new is under the sun in that sense. And new is under the sun in that sense. And new is under the sun in that sense. And so we want to use discernment and seek so we want to use discernment and seek so we want to use discernment and seek what are the principles like the ones we what are the principles like the ones we what are the principles like the ones we just looked at from my uh psalms on on

just looked at from my uh psalms on on just looked at from my uh psalms on on on um you know idolatry. And here from on um you know idolatry. And here from on um you know idolatry. And here from Romans 12:1 and2 you've got offer your Romans 12:1 and2 you've got offer your Romans 12:1 and2 you've got offer your bodies as living sacrifices. Something bodies as living sacrifices. Something bodies as living sacrifices. Something about being human embodiment is about being human embodiment is about being human embodiment is significant. um you know that it's a significant. um you know that it's a significant. um you know that it's a spiritual act of worship. Do not conform spiritual act of worship. Do not conform spiritual act of worship. Do not conform to the pattern of this world. I think of to the pattern of this world. I think of to the pattern of this world. I think of the pattern being very significant given the pattern being very significant given the pattern being very significant given that we're thinking of AI. I think it that we're thinking of AI. I think it that we're thinking of AI. I think it actually is these algorithms are actually is these algorithms are actually is these algorithms are reflective of the pattern u of um that reflective of the pattern u of um that reflective of the pattern u of um that there's a projection from the pattern of there's a projection from the pattern of there's a projection from the pattern of copying human knowledge. And then copying human knowledge. And then copying human knowledge. And then there's this element of the renewing of there's this element of the renewing of there's this element of the renewing of your mind. And you know a lot of what I your mind. And you know a lot of what I your mind. And you know a lot of what I focus on in my teaching of Christian focus on in my teaching of Christian focus on in my teaching of Christian ethics is is union with Christ. This ethics is is union with Christ. This ethics is is union with Christ. This comes out in my first book and that we comes out in my first book and that we comes out in my first book and that we want to image Christ and have even we want to image Christ and have even we want to image Christ and have even we might say the mind of Christ and this is might say the mind of Christ and this is might say the mind of Christ and this is how the renewing of our mind takes place how the renewing of our mind takes place how the renewing of our mind takes place is we are in relationship with the is we are in relationship with the is we are in relationship with the triune God knowing the triune God triune God knowing the triune God triune God knowing the triune God through his word and so we're seeking through his word and so we're seeking through his word and so we're seeking for our minds to be renewed as we um you for our minds to be renewed as we um you for our minds to be renewed as we um you know surrender to to go to Christ and know surrender to to go to Christ and know surrender to to go to Christ and that he would renew our mind as we then that he would renew our mind as we then that he would renew our mind as we then uh discern with wisdom prayerfully how uh discern with wisdom prayerfully how uh discern with wisdom prayerfully how we engage the world around us in many of we engage the world around us in many of we engage the world around us in many of these issues specifically today AI um these issues specifically today AI um these issues specifically today AI um and how we engage it. So that would be I and how we engage it. So that would be I and how we engage it. So that would be I think a really grounding passage um for think a really grounding passage um for think a really grounding passage um for all of Christian ethics but specifically all of Christian ethics but specifically all of Christian ethics but specifically today's uh consideration of AI. Thank today's uh consideration of AI. Thank today's uh consideration of AI. Thank you so much. I it's it's always you so much. I it's it's always you so much. I it's it's always incredibly helpful, isn't it? As incredibly helpful, isn't it? As incredibly helpful, isn't it? As Christians to to ground our attitude to Christians to to ground our attitude to Christians to to ground our attitude to something in particular scriptural something in particular scriptural something in particular scriptural passages and it's it's just fascinating

passages and it's it's just fascinating passages and it's it's just fascinating hearing which ones have really helped hearing which ones have really helped hearing which ones have really helped you with AI. And when you were talking you with AI. And when you were talking you with AI. And when you were talking about about about um idolatry there, it it struck me in a um idolatry there, it it struck me in a um idolatry there, it it struck me in a way that it hasn't ever before just what way that it hasn't ever before just what way that it hasn't ever before just what a powerful lens this is for a powerful lens this is for a powerful lens this is for understanding artificial intelligence understanding artificial intelligence understanding artificial intelligence because so much of the discourse around because so much of the discourse around because so much of the discourse around AI in the culture at large is look at AI in the culture at large is look at AI in the culture at large is look at this wonderful thing that we've made. this wonderful thing that we've made. this wonderful thing that we've made. Isn't it like us? You know, it is made Isn't it like us? You know, it is made Isn't it like us? You know, it is made in our image if if people wanted to use in our image if if people wanted to use in our image if if people wanted to use a a a biblical register. But I think a a a biblical register. But I think a a a biblical register. But I think what what I heard you saying is hold on what what I heard you saying is hold on what what I heard you saying is hold on the the thing about idols is not that the the thing about idols is not that the the thing about idols is not that they are like us. It's that we become they are like us. It's that we become they are like us. It's that we become like them. like them. like them. We we're conformed to the thing that We we're conformed to the thing that We we're conformed to the thing that we've made. And I think in in relation we've made. And I think in in relation we've made. And I think in in relation to AI that raises this whole really to AI that raises this whole really to AI that raises this whole really important question of not how human is important question of not how human is important question of not how human is AI AI AI but also how machineike are we becoming?

but also how machineike are we becoming? but also how machineike are we becoming? are are we being catechized to become as are are we being catechized to become as are are we being catechized to become as we engage with it? And I think that we engage with it? And I think that we engage with it? And I think that leads us on to the the question leads us on to the the question leads us on to the the question of of what it means to be human in the of of what it means to be human in the of of what it means to be human in the age of AI, how we understand ourselves age of AI, how we understand ourselves age of AI, how we understand ourselves >> faced with this new technology. And it >> faced with this new technology. And it >> faced with this new technology. And it it is striking that within the AI world it is striking that within the AI world it is striking that within the AI world itself, so much itself, so much itself, so much discussion about what it means to be discussion about what it means to be discussion about what it means to be human focuses on our capabilities, human focuses on our capabilities, human focuses on our capabilities, doesn't it? You know, we we could use doesn't it? You know, we we could use doesn't it? You know, we we could use this acronym of of sassy capabilities. this acronym of of sassy capabilities. this acronym of of sassy capabilities. SACI, sentience, agency, consciousness, SACI, sentience, agency, consciousness, SACI, sentience, agency, consciousness, intelligence. It's all about that. But intelligence. It's all about that. But intelligence. It's all about that. But you in in your writing wonderfully come you in in your writing wonderfully come you in in your writing wonderfully come at it from a very different angle and at it from a very different angle and at it from a very different angle and and you you you argue among other and you you you argue among other and you you you argue among other things. So we've actually defined not things. So we've actually defined not things. So we've actually defined not necessarily just by these capabilities necessarily just by these capabilities necessarily just by these capabilities but by our limits by our our physical but by our limits by our our physical but by our limits by our our physical limitations limitations of our bodies limitations limitations of our bodies limitations limitations of our bodies and by aging which which sets us apart and by aging which which sets us apart and by aging which which sets us apart from AI. I I wonder if you could unpack from AI. I I wonder if you could unpack from AI. I I wonder if you could unpack that a little bit in terms of this idea that a little bit in terms of this idea that a little bit in terms of this idea that you have this beautiful idea of the that you have this beautiful idea of the that you have this beautiful idea of the middle voice. I think you call it an an middle voice. I think you call it an an middle voice. I think you call it an an active receiving. Um you know, you say active receiving. Um you know, you say active receiving. Um you know, you say machines can do and they can be acted machines can do and they can be acted machines can do and they can be acted upon. They can be active and passive.

upon. They can be active and passive. upon. They can be active and passive. But there's this this third way that we But there's this this third way that we But there's this this third way that we relate to the world that you call the relate to the world that you call the relate to the world that you call the middle voice. Could you just talk a middle voice. Could you just talk a middle voice. Could you just talk a little bit about that? It's a great little bit about that? It's a great little bit about that? It's a great question and actually you're combining question and actually you're combining question and actually you're combining ideas from both books and thank you so ideas from both books and thank you so ideas from both books and thank you so much for engaging with the work so much for engaging with the work so much for engaging with the work so deeply. Um yes, the first question of deeply. Um yes, the first question of deeply. Um yes, the first question of limits and that came really out of the limits and that came really out of the limits and that came really out of the first project because uh looking at first project because uh looking at first project because uh looking at aging like is there a good in aging was aging like is there a good in aging was aging like is there a good in aging was part of the question the drive behind part of the question the drive behind part of the question the drive behind that and I came to the conclusion that that and I came to the conclusion that that and I came to the conclusion that while death is part of the fall and so while death is part of the fall and so while death is part of the fall and so you never want to separate from saying you never want to separate from saying you never want to separate from saying not acknowledging that there is a loss not acknowledging that there is a loss not acknowledging that there is a loss there is a good in our finitude in a there is a good in our finitude in a there is a good in our finitude in a sense of or our limitation that we were sense of or our limitation that we were sense of or our limitation that we were always created as dependent. Um this is always created as dependent. Um this is always created as dependent. Um this is came out of reading in Genesis 1 but a came out of reading in Genesis 1 but a came out of reading in Genesis 1 but a lot of working with Augustine and also lot of working with Augustine and also lot of working with Augustine and also um Carl Bart 2 on his reading of rest um Carl Bart 2 on his reading of rest um Carl Bart 2 on his reading of rest and that's going to be impact on uh how and that's going to be impact on uh how and that's going to be impact on uh how you think about Sabbath because it's you think about Sabbath because it's you think about Sabbath because it's actually this idea and this comes out in actually this idea and this comes out in actually this idea and this comes out in my new book on chapter 5 when I'm my new book on chapter 5 when I'm my new book on chapter 5 when I'm looking at Sabbath is this idea that God looking at Sabbath is this idea that God looking at Sabbath is this idea that God could have created in a sense infinitely could have created in a sense infinitely could have created in a sense infinitely like he that God there is a creation like he that God there is a creation like he that God there is a creation that is vast when you think about the that is vast when you think about the that is vast when you think about the world right which is different than God world right which is different than God world right which is different than God everything in creation yet even the everything in creation yet even the everything in creation yet even the narrative itself narrative itself narrative itself there are limits with each species there are limits with each species there are limits with each species that's created and with each limit comes that's created and with each limit comes that's created and with each limit comes a boundary and the boundary is what a boundary and the boundary is what a boundary and the boundary is what gives us identity.

gives us identity. gives us identity. So there's a good and the limit because So there's a good and the limit because So there's a good and the limit because that is actually what makes the creature that is actually what makes the creature that is actually what makes the creature not only the specific species but also not only the specific species but also not only the specific species but also the specific individual. the specific individual. the specific individual. um whether it's the child from parent um whether it's the child from parent um whether it's the child from parent like we are individuals like we are individuals like we are individuals because we are that is part of our limit because we are that is part of our limit because we are that is part of our limit of who we are there's a boundedness of who we are there's a boundedness of who we are there's a boundedness right and there's a way that it's right and there's a way that it's right and there's a way that it's actually was Bart was writing in actually was Bart was writing in actually was Bart was writing in dogmatics and it talks about if God had dogmatics and it talks about if God had dogmatics and it talks about if God had created infinitely there's a way that in created infinitely there's a way that in created infinitely there's a way that in choosing to limit creation there's a choosing to limit creation there's a choosing to limit creation there's a love of the actual creation that's made love of the actual creation that's made love of the actual creation that's made and a sense of I think of the Sabbath as and a sense of I think of the Sabbath as and a sense of I think of the Sabbath as uh and and maybe this is we're also uh and and maybe this is we're also uh and and maybe this is we're also reflecting I see this in August this reflecting I see this in August this reflecting I see this in August this relishing in the creation that's made a relishing in the creation that's made a relishing in the creation that's made a kind of made for if there's a teological kind of made for if there's a teological kind of made for if there's a teological goal in the creation narrative. I'm goal in the creation narrative. I'm goal in the creation narrative. I'm saying here that we were God created for saying here that we were God created for saying here that we were God created for communion because God rested and almost communion because God rested and almost communion because God rested and almost enjoyed the what was made. So there is enjoyed the what was made. So there is enjoyed the what was made. So there is an element of communion even in Genesis an element of communion even in Genesis an element of communion even in Genesis 1 with the Sabbath rest of God 1 with the Sabbath rest of God 1 with the Sabbath rest of God communing with created creation. And so communing with created creation. And so communing with created creation. And so likewise when we think about when we likewise when we think about when we likewise when we think about when we create create create um or both our experience with the um or both our experience with the um or both our experience with the humans the particularity in our family humans the particularity in our family humans the particularity in our family units or in the people that we encounter units or in the people that we encounter units or in the people that we encounter there's a beauty and relishing in the there's a beauty and relishing in the there's a beauty and relishing in the individual that we encounter which is a individual that we encounter which is a individual that we encounter which is a particularity of that person as well as particularity of that person as well as particularity of that person as well as knowing we are limited there's a a good

knowing we are limited there's a a good knowing we are limited there's a a good in that um and there's a way that we can in that um and there's a way that we can in that um and there's a way that we can the good of limits means I'm not in a the good of limits means I'm not in a the good of limits means I'm not in a sense Um there's a clear purpose. If I sense Um there's a clear purpose. If I sense Um there's a clear purpose. If I go into a creative project, there's a go into a creative project, there's a go into a creative project, there's a clear goal. This is part of I think of clear goal. This is part of I think of clear goal. This is part of I think of the ancients. Certainly Augustine the the ancients. Certainly Augustine the the ancients. Certainly Augustine the way you would create and Thomas Aquinus way you would create and Thomas Aquinus way you would create and Thomas Aquinus comes out of this and Aristotle would comes out of this and Aristotle would comes out of this and Aristotle would think this way. There's a clear goal. I think this way. There's a clear goal. I think this way. There's a clear goal. I don't see that with generative AI. I see don't see that with generative AI. I see don't see that with generative AI. I see it as this. It's almost feels more like it as this. It's almost feels more like it as this. It's almost feels more like what I call chaos versus cosmos because what I call chaos versus cosmos because what I call chaos versus cosmos because there's not a clear goal or a clear there's not a clear goal or a clear there's not a clear goal or a clear boundedness to what I'm pursuing. So it boundedness to what I'm pursuing. So it boundedness to what I'm pursuing. So it becomes also that's part of the becomes also that's part of the becomes also that's part of the confusion we were talking about earlier confusion we were talking about earlier confusion we were talking about earlier with the kind of the babel experience. with the kind of the babel experience. with the kind of the babel experience. there's so much going on or that I could there's so much going on or that I could there's so much going on or that I could pursue that it's almost feels it feels pursue that it's almost feels it feels pursue that it's almost feels it feels limitless though it technically I don't limitless though it technically I don't limitless though it technically I don't think is because it's not God itself but think is because it's not God itself but think is because it's not God itself but it feels that way and it has this sense it feels that way and it has this sense it feels that way and it has this sense of always on right like it's it doesn't of always on right like it's it doesn't of always on right like it's it doesn't feel bound by time nor does it feel feel bound by time nor does it feel feel bound by time nor does it feel bound by space limits and a sense of I bound by space limits and a sense of I bound by space limits and a sense of I feel disembodied in the sense of whether feel disembodied in the sense of whether feel disembodied in the sense of whether it's the avatar experience you know that it's the avatar experience you know that it's the avatar experience you know that it's not fully embodied or even that it's not fully embodied or even that it's not fully embodied or even that it's a kind of contortion of my body it's a kind of contortion of my body it's a kind of contortion of my body that I sit at a computer for so many that I sit at a computer for so many that I sit at a computer for so many hours in a day that in a sense isn't hours in a day that in a sense isn't hours in a day that in a sense isn't healthy ergonomically all these things healthy ergonomically all these things healthy ergonomically all these things you know we need to be moving around so you know we need to be moving around so you know we need to be moving around so there's something good about there's something good about there's something good about experiencing our bodies in time and experiencing our bodies in time and experiencing our bodies in time and space there's something about this new

space there's something about this new space there's something about this new digital moment it kind of uh it prevents me from it kind of uh it prevents me from experience what we call the the muchness experience what we call the the muchness experience what we call the the muchness of my limitations my full Like Andy of my limitations my full Like Andy of my limitations my full Like Andy Crouch talks about you know body heart Crouch talks about you know body heart Crouch talks about you know body heart soul experience but the body heart soul soul experience but the body heart soul soul experience but the body heart soul experience also has a boundedness and experience also has a boundedness and experience also has a boundedness and that venitude is good. I need to rest at that venitude is good. I need to rest at that venitude is good. I need to rest at night. I need I can only run so far night. I need I can only run so far night. I need I can only run so far during the day. You know the sense of during the day. You know the sense of during the day. You know the sense of these limitations actually allow us to these limitations actually allow us to these limitations actually allow us to celebrate what is you know um whether celebrate what is you know um whether celebrate what is you know um whether it's the marathon runner who actually it's the marathon runner who actually it's the marathon runner who actually has limits but there's an excellence in has limits but there's an excellence in has limits but there's an excellence in it. That's why we celebrate it. virtue it. That's why we celebrate it. virtue it. That's why we celebrate it. virtue ethics is actually I was talking about ethics is actually I was talking about ethics is actually I was talking about courage or all of these virtues that we courage or all of these virtues that we courage or all of these virtues that we demonstrate is actually in the face of a demonstrate is actually in the face of a demonstrate is actually in the face of a limitation that you exhibit courage limitation that you exhibit courage limitation that you exhibit courage right because there's something that you right because there's something that you right because there's something that you are up against whether that's um a are up against whether that's um a are up against whether that's um a courageous act by someone who's running courageous act by someone who's running courageous act by someone who's running into a building to save a life or you into a building to save a life or you into a building to save a life or you know all of these examples we could know all of these examples we could know all of these examples we could think of there's a limitation so that's think of there's a limitation so that's think of there's a limitation so that's actually part of being human and it's a actually part of being human and it's a actually part of being human and it's a celebration of excellence we do virtue celebration of excellence we do virtue celebration of excellence we do virtue in the face of of our limits. And of in the face of of our limits. And of in the face of of our limits. And of course, Christ who is the most virtuous course, Christ who is the most virtuous course, Christ who is the most virtuous was a God who took on our very limits um was a God who took on our very limits um was a God who took on our very limits um willingly and showed us a new way willingly and showed us a new way willingly and showed us a new way through those limits. Um so I would just through those limits. Um so I would just through those limits. Um so I would just begin with that the good and limits and begin with that the good and limits and begin with that the good and limits and then we'll move to the middle voice. I then we'll move to the middle voice. I then we'll move to the middle voice. I don't know if you want to stop and think don't know if you want to stop and think don't know if you want to stop and think about the good and limitations. Yeah, I' about the good and limitations. Yeah, I' about the good and limitations. Yeah, I' I' I'd love to to just come back on on

I' I'd love to to just come back on on I' I'd love to to just come back on on the goodness of limits because I think the goodness of limits because I think the goodness of limits because I think this is a profound difference between a this is a profound difference between a this is a profound difference between a biblical view of humanity and the view biblical view of humanity and the view biblical view of humanity and the view of human beings that sort of emerges of human beings that sort of emerges of human beings that sort of emerges from the AI world cuz uh from what I've from the AI world cuz uh from what I've from the AI world cuz uh from what I've read, I think most peop most leading read, I think most peop most leading read, I think most peop most leading voices in the AI world would see limits voices in the AI world would see limits voices in the AI world would see limits as always bad, always constraining, you as always bad, always constraining, you as always bad, always constraining, you know, Ray Curtzvial has this idea of of know, Ray Curtzvial has this idea of of know, Ray Curtzvial has this idea of of reaching escape velocity from human reaching escape velocity from human reaching escape velocity from human mortality. So we can add more than one mortality. So we can add more than one mortality. So we can add more than one year to a human life for every year that year to a human life for every year that year to a human life for every year that passes and therefore we we never going passes and therefore we we never going passes and therefore we we never going to die. As if that is an unmmitigatedly to die. As if that is an unmmitigatedly to die. As if that is an unmmitigatedly good thing. Of course we would want good thing. Of course we would want good thing. Of course we would want that. Limits are always bad to be that. Limits are always bad to be that. Limits are always bad to be overcome. But but what I hear you saying overcome. But but what I hear you saying overcome. But but what I hear you saying is no, hold on. is no, hold on. is no, hold on. >> Limits are not an effect of the fall. >> Limits are not an effect of the fall. >> Limits are not an effect of the fall. They're actually part of what it means They're actually part of what it means They're actually part of what it means to to be creatures in the first place. to to be creatures in the first place. to to be creatures in the first place. And I I just wonder if you could clarify And I I just wonder if you could clarify And I I just wonder if you could clarify that. Will we still be limited in the that. Will we still be limited in the that. Will we still be limited in the way that you're talking about in glory?

way that you're talking about in glory? way that you're talking about in glory? And how would you distinguish And how would you distinguish And how would you distinguish the the view of limits that that you're the the view of limits that that you're the the view of limits that that you're giving us where it limits are actually giving us where it limits are actually giving us where it limits are actually good that they're not just an effect of good that they're not just an effect of good that they're not just an effect of the fall from the idea of limits that the fall from the idea of limits that the fall from the idea of limits that often comes out of the AI world that often comes out of the AI world that often comes out of the AI world that that they're always negative and always that they're always negative and always that they're always negative and always to be overcome. to be overcome. to be overcome. >> Great question. >> Great question. >> Great question. So one of the things that you're So one of the things that you're So one of the things that you're identifying is this transhumanist identifying is this transhumanist identifying is this transhumanist anthropology, right? this idea that we anthropology, right? this idea that we anthropology, right? this idea that we can exceed limits and that was actually can exceed limits and that was actually can exceed limits and that was actually a concern of mine with the aging project a concern of mine with the aging project a concern of mine with the aging project and part of the language of eliminate and part of the language of eliminate and part of the language of eliminate suffering and this idea that part of suffering and this idea that part of suffering and this idea that part of technology is is this element of human technology is is this element of human technology is is this element of human progress. It has been with us whether we progress. It has been with us whether we progress. It has been with us whether we date technologies fire you know you know date technologies fire you know you know date technologies fire you know you know however you look at what technology is however you look at what technology is however you look at what technology is and that humans are this transhumanist and that humans are this transhumanist and that humans are this transhumanist anthropology humans are evolving with anthropology humans are evolving with anthropology humans are evolving with our tech becoming more sophisticated and our tech becoming more sophisticated and our tech becoming more sophisticated and that this is just the next step and the that this is just the next step and the that this is just the next step and the body some of them would even say the body some of them would even say the body some of them would even say the body is like a prost it's prosthetic in body is like a prost it's prosthetic in body is like a prost it's prosthetic in a sense and our true selves are our mind a sense and our true selves are our mind a sense and our true selves are our mind which I think is more dualistic which I think is more dualistic which I think is more dualistic anthropology anthropology anthropology more manakian if we go to Augustine more manakian if we go to Augustine more manakian if we go to Augustine ornostic We look at the scriptures and ornostic We look at the scriptures and ornostic We look at the scriptures and it doesn't make as much out of the body it doesn't make as much out of the body it doesn't make as much out of the body and part of being embodied and part of being embodied and part of being embodied is we were formed limited in the sense is we were formed limited in the sense is we were formed limited in the sense we always were when I say the good and we always were when I say the good and we always were when I say the good and limits we were always dependent because limits we were always dependent because limits we were always dependent because think about you know the creation

think about you know the creation think about you know the creation narrative it's actually nephesh the narrative it's actually nephesh the narrative it's actually nephesh the living breath right it's the breath of living breath right it's the breath of living breath right it's the breath of life that is given into the human that life that is given into the human that life that is given into the human that animates us and that very breath of life animates us and that very breath of life animates us and that very breath of life to it to me is is a miracle and is to it to me is is a miracle and is to it to me is is a miracle and is divine dependence. Um David Kelsey divine dependence. Um David Kelsey divine dependence. Um David Kelsey famously used to say we live on borrowed famously used to say we live on borrowed famously used to say we live on borrowed breath. And so there's this idea that we breath. And so there's this idea that we breath. And so there's this idea that we were always dependent and there's a were always dependent and there's a were always dependent and there's a sense part of being creaturely is sense part of being creaturely is sense part of being creaturely is recognizing this deep sense of recognizing this deep sense of recognizing this deep sense of dependence from beginning and dependence from beginning and dependence from beginning and interdependence all the way from interdependence all the way from interdependence all the way from beginning to end through our aging. And beginning to end through our aging. And beginning to end through our aging. And we are always this side of the fall we are always this side of the fall we are always this side of the fall subject to vulnerable to sickness, subject to vulnerable to sickness, subject to vulnerable to sickness, illness. Um you know that we are always illness. Um you know that we are always illness. Um you know that we are always in this uh aspect of both um we are both in this uh aspect of both um we are both in this uh aspect of both um we are both what do you call it autonomous agents? what do you call it autonomous agents? what do you call it autonomous agents? I'm not entirely anti- autonomous like I'm not entirely anti- autonomous like I'm not entirely anti- autonomous like we're you know we're agents but we're we're you know we're agents but we're we're you know we're agents but we're also interdependent with the world also interdependent with the world also interdependent with the world around us. We're never an island unto around us. We're never an island unto around us. We're never an island unto ourselves and both um yeah think about ourselves and both um yeah think about ourselves and both um yeah think about caregiving and all of those things. And caregiving and all of those things. And caregiving and all of those things. And then that moves into the the limits that then that moves into the the limits that then that moves into the the limits that are kind of part of the fall and you're are kind of part of the fall and you're are kind of part of the fall and you're asking about es esqueatological asking about es esqueatological asking about es esqueatological questions. It's really interesting when questions. It's really interesting when questions. It's really interesting when we do think about when I look at the we do think about when I look at the we do think about when I look at the gospels resurrection there is both this gospels resurrection there is both this gospels resurrection there is both this before resurrection there's a before resurrection there's a before resurrection there's a transfigured you know the transfigured you know the transfigured you know the transfiguration where they see you know transfiguration where they see you know transfiguration where they see you know Jesus transfigured and Elijah and Moses Jesus transfigured and Elijah and Moses Jesus transfigured and Elijah and Moses but then there's the resurrected Jesus but then there's the resurrected Jesus but then there's the resurrected Jesus who is with them who is like he was but who is with them who is like he was but who is with them who is like he was but different and there is this eating but I

different and there is this eating but I different and there is this eating but I don't know that eating was part of a don't know that eating was part of a don't know that eating was part of a dependency in the same way as it was dependency in the same way as it was dependency in the same way as it was before you know I think there was you before you know I think there was you before you know I think there was you see things that are eating but you do see things that are eating but you do see things that are eating but you do see him moving through doors and things see him moving through doors and things see him moving through doors and things that would be different than you know that would be different than you know that would be different than you know prior to uh the resurrection. So I think prior to uh the resurrection. So I think prior to uh the resurrection. So I think there will be something different about there will be something different about there will be something different about the resurrected body but I think that the resurrected body but I think that the resurrected body but I think that even in the resurrection even in the resurrection even in the resurrection all humans and all creation will still all humans and all creation will still all humans and all creation will still be dependent on the divine. So even when be dependent on the divine. So even when be dependent on the divine. So even when we will have the ability not to sin, you we will have the ability not to sin, you we will have the ability not to sin, you know, uh in the [clears throat] future, know, uh in the [clears throat] future, know, uh in the [clears throat] future, this idea of not sinning, um this this idea of not sinning, um this this idea of not sinning, um this ability not to sin, but we'll not have ability not to sin, but we'll not have ability not to sin, but we'll not have be able to sin in the future. Uh I do be able to sin in the future. Uh I do be able to sin in the future. Uh I do think even that will still be always in think even that will still be always in think even that will still be always in reference to how we are dependent on and reference to how we are dependent on and reference to how we are dependent on and you use the language participation per you use the language participation per you use the language participation per with the divine trinity that animates us with the divine trinity that animates us with the divine trinity that animates us that gives us life, love, all of those that gives us life, love, all of those that gives us life, love, all of those things because even in the the new things because even in the the new things because even in the the new heavens and new earth. Life and light heavens and new earth. Life and light heavens and new earth. Life and light comes from the Godhead who is the source comes from the Godhead who is the source comes from the Godhead who is the source of all things. So it will be different of all things. So it will be different of all things. So it will be different than the limits here, but it will still than the limits here, but it will still than the limits here, but it will still always have a source always have a source always have a source um and be in relationship to God.

um and be in relationship to God. um and be in relationship to God. >> That's so that's so helpful. And and I >> That's so that's so helpful. And and I >> That's so that's so helpful. And and I think you know when you look at the think you know when you look at the think you know when you look at the alternative to that the the deeper you alternative to that the the deeper you alternative to that the the deeper you go into it the the the sadder it becomes go into it the the the sadder it becomes go into it the the the sadder it becomes isn't it? So if you think that all isn't it? So if you think that all isn't it? So if you think that all dependency is always a defect that needs dependency is always a defect that needs dependency is always a defect that needs to be remedied, then what's to be remedied, then what's to be remedied, then what's what's the best case scenario? Well, what's the best case scenario? Well, what's the best case scenario? Well, it's it's complete isolation, isn't it? it's it's complete isolation, isn't it? it's it's complete isolation, isn't it? Complete alienation. Uh I don't need Complete alienation. Uh I don't need Complete alienation. Uh I don't need anyone. I'm completely self-sufficient. anyone. I'm completely self-sufficient. anyone. I'm completely self-sufficient. And that is And that is And that is a a shriveled human existence. It's it's a a shriveled human existence. It's it's a a shriveled human existence. It's it's an isolated and emaciated human an isolated and emaciated human an isolated and emaciated human existence. So I thought leaning into existence. So I thought leaning into existence. So I thought leaning into >> dependency >> dependency >> dependency and limits it is not in itself limiting. and limits it is not in itself limiting. and limits it is not in itself limiting. It is actually liberating uh for us as It is actually liberating uh for us as It is actually liberating uh for us as human beings. Mhm. human beings. Mhm. human beings. Mhm. >> I I I'd love to press further into the >> I I I'd love to press further into the >> I I I'd love to press further into the difference, the real profound difference, the real profound difference, the real profound differences between a biblical view of differences between a biblical view of differences between a biblical view of human beings and the the view of human human beings and the the view of human human beings and the the view of human beings that that tends to come out of beings that that tends to come out of beings that that tends to come out of the the leading thinkers of of AI by um the the leading thinkers of of AI by um the the leading thinkers of of AI by um inviting you to react to a particular inviting you to react to a particular inviting you to react to a particular passage in a book by a guy called Nick passage in a book by a guy called Nick passage in a book by a guy called Nick Bostonramm, one of the the leading AI Bostonramm, one of the the leading AI Bostonramm, one of the the leading AI thinkers worked in Oxford and he's thinkers worked in Oxford and he's thinkers worked in Oxford and he's written this book called Deep Utopia.

written this book called Deep Utopia. written this book called Deep Utopia. Um, and at one point in the book, he's Um, and at one point in the book, he's Um, and at one point in the book, he's reflecting on the experience of being a reflecting on the experience of being a reflecting on the experience of being a a parent in the age of AI, and he throws a parent in the age of AI, and he throws a parent in the age of AI, and he throws up this thought experiment. And he he up this thought experiment. And he he up this thought experiment. And he he doesn't actually come down, I think, on doesn't actually come down, I think, on doesn't actually come down, I think, on one side or the other of it himself, but one side or the other of it himself, but one side or the other of it himself, but I think it's a fascinating experience. I think it's a fascinating experience. I think it's a fascinating experience. It it goes like this. Um, imagine in the It it goes like this. Um, imagine in the It it goes like this. Um, imagine in the future there's a robotic caregiver future there's a robotic caregiver future there's a robotic caregiver that's learned from that's learned from that's learned from billions of other parents and it's billions of other parents and it's billions of other parents and it's become this super parent. You know, it's become this super parent. You know, it's become this super parent. You know, it's it's more patient than any human parent. it's more patient than any human parent. it's more patient than any human parent. It's more knowledgeable. It's more It's more knowledgeable. It's more It's more knowledgeable. It's more attentive. It's it's read all the attentive. It's it's read all the attentive. It's it's read all the parenting textbook. It's it's better parenting textbook. It's it's better parenting textbook. It's it's better than any human parent. And and he says, than any human parent. And and he says, than any human parent. And and he says, well, hold on. In such a situation, does well, hold on. In such a situation, does well, hold on. In such a situation, does it become neglectful then to raise your it become neglectful then to raise your it become neglectful then to raise your child yourself because you are a worse child yourself because you are a worse child yourself because you are a worse parent than the machine? He's got this parent than the machine? He's got this parent than the machine? He's got this quote, "Every hour of quality time you quote, "Every hour of quality time you quote, "Every hour of quality time you spend with your child is an hour of even spend with your child is an hour of even spend with your child is an hour of even higher quality time it's deprived of higher quality time it's deprived of higher quality time it's deprived of spending with the robot." And I think spending with the robot." And I think spending with the robot." And I think that's so fascinating because it gets to that's so fascinating because it gets to that's so fascinating because it gets to this bigger question about AI, doesn't this bigger question about AI, doesn't this bigger question about AI, doesn't it? What does it mean for AI to be it? What does it mean for AI to be it? What does it mean for AI to be better than humans at something? So, I'd better than humans at something? So, I'd better than humans at something? So, I'd love you just to to react to love you just to to react to love you just to to react to Bostonramm's scenario. What's going on Bostonramm's scenario. What's going on Bostonramm's scenario. What's going on there? What's the view of humanity? How there? What's the view of humanity? How there? What's the view of humanity? How is that different? How would the Bible is that different? How would the Bible is that different? How would the Bible push back on that view? No, it's a great push back on that view? No, it's a great push back on that view? No, it's a great question and it's an interesting question and it's an interesting question and it's an interesting scenario and it's one whether you think

scenario and it's one whether you think scenario and it's one whether you think about children and caregiving but also about children and caregiving but also about children and caregiving but also at least I remember Sher Turkl and her at least I remember Sher Turkl and her at least I remember Sher Turkl and her her early alone together talks about her early alone together talks about her early alone together talks about carebots or at least throws that out carebots or at least throws that out carebots or at least throws that out there. She brings up the idea of el there. She brings up the idea of el there. She brings up the idea of el seniors or elders relating to something seniors or elders relating to something seniors or elders relating to something and thinking it was either a child or and thinking it was either a child or and thinking it was either a child or not being aware that it was actually not being aware that it was actually not being aware that it was actually something technology. And it raises this something technology. And it raises this something technology. And it raises this whole question of, you know, whether whole question of, you know, whether whole question of, you know, whether we're thinking about care for seniors we're thinking about care for seniors we're thinking about care for seniors and the elderly and or children. and the elderly and or children. and the elderly and or children. Would we want to replace humans? And Would we want to replace humans? And Would we want to replace humans? And it's a fascinating idea that they could it's a fascinating idea that they could it's a fascinating idea that they could be better than humans both. as you were be better than humans both. as you were be better than humans both. as you were talking it just made me think of oh you talking it just made me think of oh you talking it just made me think of oh you know whether that's like a Mary Poppins know whether that's like a Mary Poppins know whether that's like a Mary Poppins type character which is like you know type character which is like you know type character which is like you know this magical uh idea person that I this magical uh idea person that I this magical uh idea person that I always joke that I wish I had the skills always joke that I wish I had the skills always joke that I wish I had the skills or could just you know things could come or could just you know things could come or could just you know things could come snap of a finger could clean a room but snap of a finger could clean a room but snap of a finger could clean a room but that's the that's the longing for magic that's the that's the longing for magic that's the that's the longing for magic which is something we kind of want to which is something we kind of want to which is something we kind of want to get away from but it's it's also an get away from but it's it's also an get away from but it's it's also an eraser of the friction of life the eraser of the friction of life the eraser of the friction of life the challenges that are actually good and challenges that are actually good and challenges that are actually good and this is where um I would be deeply this is where um I would be deeply this is where um I would be deeply concerned erned about giving over things concerned erned about giving over things concerned erned about giving over things like care to a machine. Now it is true like care to a machine. Now it is true like care to a machine. Now it is true if you were to think about uh caregiving if you were to think about uh caregiving if you were to think about uh caregiving there are problem you know there there there are problem you know there there there are problem you know there there there's evil in the world and there is there's evil in the world and there is there's evil in the world and there is sin so there actually are bad forms of sin so there actually are bad forms of sin so there actually are bad forms of caregiving caregiving caregiving so that that is to be recognized but you so that that is to be recognized but you so that that is to be recognized but you I don't think replacing humans with this

I don't think replacing humans with this I don't think replacing humans with this caregiving cart block or even saying caregiving cart block or even saying caregiving cart block or even saying it's better than all caregiving it's better than all caregiving it's better than all caregiving it it raises the question of what would it it raises the question of what would it it raises the question of what would it for the young to grow up in a it for the young to grow up in a it for the young to grow up in a relationship with a machine that is not relationship with a machine that is not relationship with a machine that is not truly truly truly other than them and the way in which other than them and the way in which other than them and the way in which they're going to imitate I would suggest they're going to imitate I would suggest they're going to imitate I would suggest actually uh I think it would be a lesser actually uh I think it would be a lesser actually uh I think it would be a lesser form because it would be something form because it would be something form because it would be something superficial quality about it. Now you superficial quality about it. Now you superficial quality about it. Now you can get into this I want to talk about can get into this I want to talk about can get into this I want to talk about subjective and how do we analyze these subjective and how do we analyze these subjective and how do we analyze these things um but you know I was thinking things um but you know I was thinking things um but you know I was thinking about um uh with the with the carebots about um uh with the with the carebots about um uh with the with the carebots in particular the importance of other in particular the importance of other in particular the importance of other and the sense of and the sense of and the sense of Turkl does talk about Sher Turkl talks Turkl does talk about Sher Turkl talks Turkl does talk about Sher Turkl talks about empathy is significant for about empathy is significant for about empathy is significant for engaging the other and you can't really engaging the other and you can't really engaging the other and you can't really have empathy with something a machine have empathy with something a machine have empathy with something a machine and it's interesting being in and it's interesting being in and it's interesting being in conversation both Ros and Bard who is conversation both Ros and Bard who is conversation both Ros and Bard who is affective intelligence But she would say affective intelligence But she would say affective intelligence But she would say it's still a machine that is reflective it's still a machine that is reflective it's still a machine that is reflective and does not replace humans. And so it and does not replace humans. And so it and does not replace humans. And so it doesn't actually share empathy with the doesn't actually share empathy with the doesn't actually share empathy with the human being. That's a shared experience.

human being. That's a shared experience. human being. That's a shared experience. And I think the word solidarity goes And I think the word solidarity goes And I think the word solidarity goes even perhaps deeper because it's a even perhaps deeper because it's a even perhaps deeper because it's a shared experience. Maybe empathy would shared experience. Maybe empathy would shared experience. Maybe empathy would be likewise because it's something that be likewise because it's something that be likewise because it's something that is particular to humans that is in that is particular to humans that is in that is particular to humans that is in that moment that is also this is what I'm moment that is also this is what I'm moment that is also this is what I'm writing about in my book has to do with writing about in my book has to do with writing about in my book has to do with communion. um or you could say communion. um or you could say communion. um or you could say transcendence that takes place between transcendence that takes place between transcendence that takes place between human to human and this is a concern human to human and this is a concern human to human and this is a concern that I have in the whole of the book um that I have in the whole of the book um that I have in the whole of the book um a scripture that's guiding me is this a scripture that's guiding me is this a scripture that's guiding me is this idea we are image of God but we're idea we are image of God but we're idea we are image of God but we're looking to a machine that is actually or looking to a machine that is actually or looking to a machine that is actually or or a photo if it's what in social media or a photo if it's what in social media or a photo if it's what in social media that's an image of the image and the that's an image of the image and the that's an image of the image and the image of the image is a distortion image of the image is a distortion image of the image is a distortion and what I'm called to be is actually in and what I'm called to be is actually in and what I'm called to be is actually in relationship to God and when I encounter relationship to God and when I encounter relationship to God and when I encounter another human being I am encountering another human being I am encountering another human being I am encountering the image of God. So there is something the image of God. So there is something the image of God. So there is something about the divine presence I would argue about the divine presence I would argue about the divine presence I would argue that is in another human being believer that is in another human being believer that is in another human being believer and non-believer that you are and non-believer that you are and non-believer that you are encountering something someone who encountering something someone who encountering something someone who images God and how they were created and images God and how they were created and images God and how they were created and even I would say the created world even I would say the created world even I would say the created world images God though there is a unique images God though there is a unique images God though there is a unique particularity to humans that I still particularity to humans that I still particularity to humans that I still think is different than think is different than think is different than uh silicon carbon uh something that is uh silicon carbon uh something that is uh silicon carbon uh something that is created that is a human creation.

created that is a human creation. created that is a human creation. Uh and this gets back to the middle Uh and this gets back to the middle Uh and this gets back to the middle voice question that you were actually voice question that you were actually voice question that you were actually posing earlier. Um the giving and posing earlier. Um the giving and posing earlier. Um the giving and receiving. The middle voice is this idea receiving. The middle voice is this idea receiving. The middle voice is this idea of I can be acted upon and also act. And of I can be acted upon and also act. And of I can be acted upon and also act. And in some ways this goes back to even this in some ways this goes back to even this in some ways this goes back to even this idea of dependence. We are in idea of dependence. We are in idea of dependence. We are in relationship to the world the world of relationship to the world the world of relationship to the world the world of things. I think it was Albert Borgman things. I think it was Albert Borgman things. I think it was Albert Borgman who talks about the difference between a who talks about the difference between a who talks about the difference between a device and a thing. a device like device and a thing. a device like device and a thing. a device like musical like a stereo or something or or musical like a stereo or something or or musical like a stereo or something or or you know we listen to iTunes or whatever you know we listen to iTunes or whatever you know we listen to iTunes or whatever we listen to today you you turn on music we listen to today you you turn on music we listen to today you you turn on music and that's different though than playing and that's different though than playing and that's different though than playing an instrument which is an a thing that an instrument which is an a thing that an instrument which is an a thing that you both kind of act upon but you also you both kind of act upon but you also you both kind of act upon but you also act with there's a creative process act with there's a creative process act with there's a creative process whether it's the piano and Andy Crouch whether it's the piano and Andy Crouch whether it's the piano and Andy Crouch talks about this you know music um I talks about this you know music um I talks about this you know music um I know um Travis [clears throat] Mel has know um Travis [clears throat] Mel has know um Travis [clears throat] Mel has been writing about this this idea of been writing about this this idea of been writing about this this idea of something happens when your engagement something happens when your engagement something happens when your engagement with the world whether it's an with the world whether it's an with the world whether it's an instrument or even you go back to the instrument or even you go back to the instrument or even you go back to the ancients talking about you know a tool ancients talking about you know a tool ancients talking about you know a tool that they were using with an end goal that they were using with an end goal that they were using with an end goal there's something creative um that you there's something creative um that you there's something creative um that you are both kind of you are working with are both kind of you are working with are both kind of you are working with that instrument but there's something that instrument but there's something that instrument but there's something even more I think that happens at the even more I think that happens at the even more I think that happens at the relational level of receiving and relational level of receiving and relational level of receiving and responding because I am now in a responding because I am now in a responding because I am now in a relationship with another and I am relationship with another and I am relationship with another and I am receiving receiving receiving you know learning from another who is you know learning from another who is you know learning from another who is image of God and responding image of God and responding image of God and responding There's a give and take. And this is There's a give and take. And this is There's a give and take. And this is what I think if we are imaging God truly what I think if we are imaging God truly what I think if we are imaging God truly and part of my whole idea of when we and part of my whole idea of when we and part of my whole idea of when we practice virtue, I put christologology

practice virtue, I put christologology practice virtue, I put christologology at the center which is tied to the at the center which is tied to the at the center which is tied to the triune God. We are always in triune God. We are always in triune God. We are always in relationship to God who is behind all relationship to God who is behind all relationship to God who is behind all things. And as we practice virtue, it is things. And as we practice virtue, it is things. And as we practice virtue, it is for the believer, we are receiving. for the believer, we are receiving. for the believer, we are receiving. Think about the life of prayer is a Think about the life of prayer is a Think about the life of prayer is a receiving in relationship to another and receiving in relationship to another and receiving in relationship to another and then you're acting in the world. So for then you're acting in the world. So for then you're acting in the world. So for whether it's the philosopher this is whether it's the philosopher this is whether it's the philosopher this is contemplation and action for the contemplation and action for the contemplation and action for the theologian this is the life of prayer theologian this is the life of prayer theologian this is the life of prayer and service. This is the life of prayer and service. This is the life of prayer and service. This is the life of prayer and action which is what it is to be and action which is what it is to be and action which is what it is to be doing virtue. So we are always as goes doing virtue. So we are always as goes doing virtue. So we are always as goes back to this idea of being dependent back to this idea of being dependent back to this idea of being dependent creatures and interdependent. We are creatures and interdependent. We are creatures and interdependent. We are always receiving and acting. Now, if I'm always receiving and acting. Now, if I'm always receiving and acting. Now, if I'm going to go now have my child in a going to go now have my child in a going to go now have my child in a so-called relationship with a machine so-called relationship with a machine so-called relationship with a machine caregiver, caregiver, caregiver, I think there is something that cannot I think there is something that cannot I think there is something that cannot take place between the receiving and take place between the receiving and take place between the receiving and acting that is lost in relational skills acting that is lost in relational skills acting that is lost in relational skills between the machine and the child. Just between the machine and the child. Just between the machine and the child. Just like I think when I offsource something like I think when I offsource something like I think when I offsource something I'm going to be doing to learn or I'm going to be doing to learn or I'm going to be doing to learn or writing or some skill set I am losing writing or some skill set I am losing writing or some skill set I am losing capacities. So I'm actually would be I capacities. So I'm actually would be I capacities. So I'm actually would be I think harmfully training a child to think harmfully training a child to think harmfully training a child to imitate imitate imitate a machine and not a true human and and a machine and not a true human and and a machine and not a true human and and even if we get to hopefully an excellent even if we get to hopefully an excellent even if we get to hopefully an excellent human is what we long for with human is what we long for with human is what we long for with caregivers. Um you know but there's no caregivers. Um you know but there's no caregivers. Um you know but there's no perfection. We're not perfect other than

perfection. We're not perfect other than perfection. We're not perfect other than Christ. So this idea of we are learning Christ. So this idea of we are learning Christ. So this idea of we are learning even through the mistakes we are even through the mistakes we are even through the mistakes we are learning through right um to be human learning through right um to be human learning through right um to be human and actually part of being human is to and actually part of being human is to and actually part of being human is to make mistakes and that's how we learn make mistakes and that's how we learn make mistakes and that's how we learn and that is of course the path and that is of course the path and that is of course the path ultimately of redemption and the gospel ultimately of redemption and the gospel ultimately of redemption and the gospel is that we are learning prayerfully so is that we are learning prayerfully so is that we are learning prayerfully so that we can be changed and be that we can be changed and be that we can be changed and be transformed but we actually need to be transformed but we actually need to be transformed but we actually need to be in relationship with real I believe in relationship with real I believe in relationship with real I believe humans as caregivers and that quite humans as caregivers and that quite humans as caregivers and that quite honestly would be to me the threshold of honestly would be to me the threshold of honestly would be to me the threshold of the most important thing you would not the most important thing you would not the most important thing you would not offload to the machine. It's one thing offload to the machine. It's one thing offload to the machine. It's one thing for the machine to do calculations to do for the machine to do calculations to do for the machine to do calculations to do some kind of assist me mathematical some kind of assist me mathematical some kind of assist me mathematical scientific discoveries even if we get scientific discoveries even if we get scientific discoveries even if we get into language and you know I'm more into language and you know I'm more into language and you know I'm more cautious in my own fields writing I cautious in my own fields writing I cautious in my own fields writing I don't want us to lose that skill set of don't want us to lose that skill set of don't want us to lose that skill set of thinking and so to be cautious about thinking and so to be cautious about thinking and so to be cautious about what we offload so that we're not losing what we offload so that we're not losing what we offload so that we're not losing those skills as well as the fact I'll those skills as well as the fact I'll those skills as well as the fact I'll just go to this um there's this you know just go to this um there's this you know just go to this um there's this you know philosophers like to use sometimes an philosophers like to use sometimes an philosophers like to use sometimes an example of like the pleasure machine example of like the pleasure machine example of like the pleasure machine have you heard of this like with have you heard of this like with have you heard of this like with utilitarians I'm thinking of Todd May utilitarians I'm thinking of Todd May utilitarians I'm thinking of Todd May uses this from Clemson this idea of uses this from Clemson this idea of uses this from Clemson this idea of posing the pleasure machine that is posing the pleasure machine that is posing the pleasure machine that is actually fake. But it's as if you go in actually fake. But it's as if you go in actually fake. But it's as if you go in with a a dopamine hit, but it's not with a a dopamine hit, but it's not with a a dopamine hit, but it's not real. And people that they would real. And people that they would real. And people that they would interview, he talked about like 14 out interview, he talked about like 14 out interview, he talked about like 14 out of 15 would say, I don't want the of 15 would say, I don't want the of 15 would say, I don't want the pleasure machine because it's not real.

pleasure machine because it's not real. pleasure machine because it's not real. And so there's something about I don't And so there's something about I don't And so there's something about I don't want to put my child in a position or want to put my child in a position or want to put my child in a position or elder of being cared for by others who elder of being cared for by others who elder of being cared for by others who are not real. So this gets into the are not real. So this gets into the are not real. So this gets into the whole question I would pose to you as whole question I would pose to you as whole question I would pose to you as someone who thinks a lot about someone who thinks a lot about someone who thinks a lot about postmodern philosophy. postmodern philosophy. postmodern philosophy. is what are we talking about when we're is what are we talking about when we're is what are we talking about when we're talking about humans? And does this pose talking about humans? And does this pose talking about humans? And does this pose us getting back to there is an objective us getting back to there is an objective us getting back to there is an objective reality beyond just the subjective reality beyond just the subjective reality beyond just the subjective experience? And we want to get back to experience? And we want to get back to experience? And we want to get back to something that is real. And then of something that is real. And then of something that is real. And then of course as believers, we believe if we're course as believers, we believe if we're course as believers, we believe if we're imaging God, there's something that's imaging God, there's something that's imaging God, there's something that's really real. That's the ultimate reality really real. That's the ultimate reality really real. That's the ultimate reality which is when our hearts our loves align which is when our hearts our loves align which is when our hearts our loves align with Christ or you know thy kingdom come with Christ or you know thy kingdom come with Christ or you know thy kingdom come thy will be done. This is when we are thy will be done. This is when we are thy will be done. This is when we are actually aligning ourselves with the actually aligning ourselves with the actually aligning ourselves with the truest good you know u truth goodness truest good you know u truth goodness truest good you know u truth goodness and beauty which is aligned with who God and beauty which is aligned with who God and beauty which is aligned with who God himself God Christ is and that's when we himself God Christ is and that's when we himself God Christ is and that's when we are aligning ourselves with the fullness are aligning ourselves with the fullness are aligning ourselves with the fullness of what we were made to be um and what of what we were made to be um and what of what we were made to be um and what we were made to image. I think this idea we were made to image. I think this idea we were made to image. I think this idea of the the real that you raises is so of the the real that you raises is so of the the real that you raises is so key, isn't it, to this whole debate. We key, isn't it, to this whole debate. We key, isn't it, to this whole debate. We we perhaps living in a cultural moment we perhaps living in a cultural moment we perhaps living in a cultural moment where the real is becoming the the where the real is becoming the the where the real is becoming the the premium thing. uh the the commodity that premium thing. uh the the commodity that premium thing. uh the the commodity that that is sought after more than any that is sought after more than any that is sought after more than any others. you know, when the internet is others. you know, when the internet is others. you know, when the internet is increasingly filled with AI slop who is increasingly filled with AI slop who is increasingly filled with AI slop who is searching out what is real and and how searching out what is real and and how searching out what is real and and how how well by God's grace are Christians

how well by God's grace are Christians how well by God's grace are Christians placed to to speak into that moment placed to to speak into that moment placed to to speak into that moment where you know we we insist upon the the where you know we we insist upon the the where you know we we insist upon the the physical bodily gathering of of God's physical bodily gathering of of God's physical bodily gathering of of God's people uh [clears throat] on on the people uh [clears throat] on on the people uh [clears throat] on on the Lord's day uh in real face to face Lord's day uh in real face to face Lord's day uh in real face to face offline relationships as the core of who offline relationships as the core of who offline relationships as the core of who we are and how we we we live out this we are and how we we we live out this we are and how we we we live out this calling as the body of Christ. It's calling as the body of Christ. It's calling as the body of Christ. It's really precious. I I can hear really precious. I I can hear really precious. I I can hear an AI advocate sort of in my mind as an AI advocate sort of in my mind as an AI advocate sort of in my mind as you're talking about the middle voice you're talking about the middle voice you're talking about the middle voice saying, saying, saying, >> "I agree with you, but isn't that >> "I agree with you, but isn't that >> "I agree with you, but isn't that exactly what what AI does?" So the the exactly what what AI does?" So the the exactly what what AI does?" So the the idea of the middle voice, as I idea of the middle voice, as I idea of the middle voice, as I understand your explanation of it, is understand your explanation of it, is understand your explanation of it, is it's not simply giving and it's not it's not simply giving and it's not it's not simply giving and it's not simply receiving. It's sort of a almost simply receiving. It's sort of a almost simply receiving. It's sort of a almost a symbiotic a symbiotic a symbiotic relationship of the two. And they would relationship of the two. And they would relationship of the two. And they would say, "Well, hold on. When I'm talking say, "Well, hold on. When I'm talking say, "Well, hold on. When I'm talking with a large language model, there's a with a large language model, there's a with a large language model, there's a back and forth. It learns things about back and forth. It learns things about back and forth. It learns things about me. It responds to me. There's a almost me. It responds to me. There's a almost me. It responds to me. There's a almost a dance going on. Isn't that a dance going on. Isn't that a dance going on. Isn't that >> the middle voice you're talking about?

>> the middle voice you're talking about? >> the middle voice you're talking about? And therefore, isn't this idea that And therefore, isn't this idea that And therefore, isn't this idea that that's not real just a prejudice that, that's not real just a prejudice that, that's not real just a prejudice that, you know, give it 20, 30 years, we're you know, give it 20, 30 years, we're you know, give it 20, 30 years, we're going to get past?" going to get past?" going to get past?" >> It's a great question and it's one to >> It's a great question and it's one to >> It's a great question and it's one to think about. actually Chris Miserel uh think about. actually Chris Miserel uh think about. actually Chris Miserel uh he's worked in safety on and risk on AI he's worked in safety on and risk on AI he's worked in safety on and risk on AI and he does talk about the middle voice and he does talk about the middle voice and he does talk about the middle voice and it's interesting because if I go to and it's interesting because if I go to and it's interesting because if I go to the instrument the instrument the instrument uh analogy right there is a way that new uh analogy right there is a way that new uh analogy right there is a way that new AI and this is I think how we need to AI and this is I think how we need to AI and this is I think how we need to discern as a community how can it be discern as a community how can it be discern as a community how can it be used as an instrument or tool that yes used as an instrument or tool that yes used as an instrument or tool that yes there is a form of acting and receiving there is a form of acting and receiving there is a form of acting and receiving so I'm not entirely saying we would say so I'm not entirely saying we would say so I'm not entirely saying we would say no to all forms of generative AI if it no to all forms of generative AI if it no to all forms of generative AI if it is involved in discovery. So I'm going is involved in discovery. So I'm going is involved in discovery. So I'm going to use the example of like healthc care to use the example of like healthc care to use the example of like healthc care and medicine and um ways in which and medicine and um ways in which and medicine and um ways in which they're looking at proteins and how they're looking at proteins and how they're looking at proteins and how supposedly they can do a lot of analysis supposedly they can do a lot of analysis supposedly they can do a lot of analysis on proteins that will help with you know on proteins that will help with you know on proteins that will help with you know um looking at ways that we can do drug um looking at ways that we can do drug um looking at ways that we can do drug research that would be a lot more fast a research that would be a lot more fast a research that would be a lot more fast a lot faster than what we've been able to lot faster than what we've been able to lot faster than what we've been able to do with just human calculations right do with just human calculations right do with just human calculations right and human analysis of the data.

and human analysis of the data. and human analysis of the data. I don't think that's entirely wrong and I don't think that's entirely wrong and I don't think that's entirely wrong and it's it's aimed at a specific goal that it's it's aimed at a specific goal that it's it's aimed at a specific goal that is also aiding what is you know the is also aiding what is you know the is also aiding what is you know the researchers set up the protocol and the researchers set up the protocol and the researchers set up the protocol and the question behind it and they're using it question behind it and they're using it question behind it and they're using it like a tool and it's it is participating like a tool and it's it is participating like a tool and it's it is participating you say like an instrument in that you say like an instrument in that you say like an instrument in that activity which is a a good human activity which is a a good human activity which is a a good human activity what we're going to have to ask activity what we're going to have to ask activity what we're going to have to ask is when do we blur the line and does it is when do we blur the line and does it is when do we blur the line and does it become unhealthy in the ways that it's become unhealthy in the ways that it's become unhealthy in the ways that it's impacting us and this is where I am more impacting us and this is where I am more impacting us and this is where I am more concerned about relationship and concerned about relationship and concerned about relationship and sociality sociality sociality that I don't want to relate. I'm that I don't want to relate. I'm that I don't want to relate. I'm concerned about romantic relationships concerned about romantic relationships concerned about romantic relationships with AI. I'm certainly concerned about with AI. I'm certainly concerned about with AI. I'm certainly concerned about that. I'm concerned about this deceptive that. I'm concerned about this deceptive that. I'm concerned about this deceptive way of projecting, you know, granny onto way of projecting, you know, granny onto way of projecting, you know, granny onto AI or whoever some human being because I AI or whoever some human being because I AI or whoever some human being because I think it's a deceptive way of loving think it's a deceptive way of loving think it's a deceptive way of loving myself. myself. myself. It is a form of narcissism. I think of It is a form of narcissism. I think of It is a form of narcissism. I think of it's a what do I want from this machine it's a what do I want from this machine it's a what do I want from this machine that is now projecting back to me what I that is now projecting back to me what I that is now projecting back to me what I perceive the other to be and that's much perceive the other to be and that's much perceive the other to be and that's much more dangerous form of utilizing the more dangerous form of utilizing the more dangerous form of utilizing the middle voice of you know giving and middle voice of you know giving and middle voice of you know giving and being acted upon than trying to use it being acted upon than trying to use it being acted upon than trying to use it like an instrument towards some more like an instrument towards some more like an instrument towards some more educated good or educative good do you educated good or educative good do you educated good or educative good do you know what I'm saying so I think you have know what I'm saying so I think you have know what I'm saying so I think you have to ask what am I intending what are the to ask what am I intending what are the to ask what am I intending what are the motives and what is the like what is the motives and what is the like what is the motives and what is the like what is the goal that's behind this use. Um, so I goal that's behind this use. Um, so I goal that's behind this use. Um, so I think those are the key questions that think those are the key questions that think those are the key questions that will help us prayerfully discern uh and

will help us prayerfully discern uh and will help us prayerfully discern uh and and push back to the more transhumanist and push back to the more transhumanist and push back to the more transhumanist AI. Is that really good to replace human AI. Is that really good to replace human AI. Is that really good to replace human relationships? And actually, I think relationships? And actually, I think relationships? And actually, I think friction happens in real relationships. friction happens in real relationships. friction happens in real relationships. Conflict is part of reality, but it's Conflict is part of reality, but it's Conflict is part of reality, but it's also ways in which you can grow through also ways in which you can grow through also ways in which you can grow through difference and challenge as opposed to difference and challenge as opposed to difference and challenge as opposed to creating some relationship that will creating some relationship that will creating some relationship that will always get along with me and uh never always get along with me and uh never always get along with me and uh never have friction. I'm just really concerned have friction. I'm just really concerned have friction. I'm just really concerned about that and what that does to an about that and what that does to an about that and what that does to an individual and that reshapes individual and that reshapes individual and that reshapes really who we are. I think actually in a really who we are. I think actually in a really who we are. I think actually in a fundamentally narcissistic way um is my fundamentally narcissistic way um is my fundamentally narcissistic way um is my concern. concern. concern. >> Yeah. Look, I I I couldn't agree more. >> Yeah. Look, I I I couldn't agree more. >> Yeah. Look, I I I couldn't agree more. the the idea of always being told that the the idea of always being told that the the idea of always being told that I'm right. I I think in my better I'm right. I I think in my better I'm right. I I think in my better moments I I find horrifying. Um moments I I find horrifying. Um moments I I find horrifying. Um [clears throat] I I I couldn't deal with [clears throat] I I I couldn't deal with [clears throat] I I I couldn't deal with that um in in a wise way. I I wonder if that um in in a wise way. I I wonder if that um in in a wise way. I I wonder if I could try and bring together your two I could try and bring together your two I could try and bring together your two books. So your your first book was about books. So your your first book was about books. So your your first book was about uh aging [clears throat] uh aging [clears throat] uh aging [clears throat] uh and and the idea of of aging not uh and and the idea of of aging not uh and and the idea of of aging not being a a decline that we need to fix or being a a decline that we need to fix or being a a decline that we need to fix or solve. But but the beautiful word you solve. But but the beautiful word you solve. But but the beautiful word you use for it is it's it's a vocation. It's use for it is it's it's a vocation. It's use for it is it's it's a vocation. It's a specific calling to move towards a specific calling to move towards a specific calling to move towards Sabbath. And you know your second book Sabbath. And you know your second book Sabbath. And you know your second book is about AI and and and the digital is about AI and and and the digital is about AI and and and the digital world. And I I wonder if we look at AI world. And I I wonder if we look at AI world. And I I wonder if we look at AI through the lens of aging and the human through the lens of aging and the human through the lens of aging and the human experience of growing older and and the

experience of growing older and and the experience of growing older and and the the Bible's view of that experience. the Bible's view of that experience. the Bible's view of that experience. What does the reality of human aging, do What does the reality of human aging, do What does the reality of human aging, do you think, reveal to us about you think, reveal to us about you think, reveal to us about ourselves that the AI world might try to ourselves that the AI world might try to ourselves that the AI world might try to hide from us? It's a great question. hide from us? It's a great question. hide from us? It's a great question. With aging, it is both limit that's good With aging, it is both limit that's good With aging, it is both limit that's good and possibility for growth. There's also and possibility for growth. There's also and possibility for growth. There's also loss. So, I think I'm trying to hold loss. So, I think I'm trying to hold loss. So, I think I'm trying to hold these tensions together in my first these tensions together in my first these tensions together in my first book. And so there's a mixture of book. And so there's a mixture of book. And so there's a mixture of feelings and a mixture of experiences. feelings and a mixture of experiences. feelings and a mixture of experiences. And I think of the Paul passage, you And I think of the Paul passage, you And I think of the Paul passage, you know, outwardly we are uh wasting away, know, outwardly we are uh wasting away, know, outwardly we are uh wasting away, but inwardly we are being renewed day by but inwardly we are being renewed day by but inwardly we are being renewed day by day. I don't think all aging is outward day. I don't think all aging is outward day. I don't think all aging is outward wasting away. But there is true entropy wasting away. But there is true entropy wasting away. But there is true entropy and there is true loss that accompanies and there is true loss that accompanies and there is true loss that accompanies the aging experience. And it's, you the aging experience. And it's, you the aging experience. And it's, you know, you can talk about young, old, know, you can talk about young, old, know, you can talk about young, old, old, old, and but everyone is particular old, old, and but everyone is particular old, old, and but everyone is particular in the ways that we experience, you in the ways that we experience, you in the ways that we experience, you know, loss that accompanies aging. So know, loss that accompanies aging. So know, loss that accompanies aging. So there's an element of possibility for there's an element of possibility for there's an element of possibility for what we would call, I think, even what we would call, I think, even what we would call, I think, even expression of virtue in a of fullness expression of virtue in a of fullness expression of virtue in a of fullness that is drawing on the wisdom and that is drawing on the wisdom and that is drawing on the wisdom and experience of years that the aging experience of years that the aging experience of years that the aging community has to offer. And I read about community has to offer. And I read about community has to offer. And I read about this like whether it's Anna and Simeon this like whether it's Anna and Simeon this like whether it's Anna and Simeon being prophetic, you know, as they uh as being prophetic, you know, as they uh as being prophetic, you know, as they uh as they talk about receive Jesus, you know, they talk about receive Jesus, you know, they talk about receive Jesus, you know, in Luke 2 and uh dedicate him at the in Luke 2 and uh dedicate him at the in Luke 2 and uh dedicate him at the temple. So this prophetic role and wise temple. So this prophetic role and wise temple. So this prophetic role and wise role that the elders can be for a

role that the elders can be for a role that the elders can be for a community and still live into the community and still live into the community and still live into the virtues and then also can be an virtues and then also can be an virtues and then also can be an experience of loss. What I think the experience of loss. What I think the experience of loss. What I think the transhumanist anthropology and our tech transhumanist anthropology and our tech transhumanist anthropology and our tech is going to um tempt us to do is to is going to um tempt us to do is to is going to um tempt us to do is to cover over the limits and loss and I cover over the limits and loss and I cover over the limits and loss and I mean everything from I'm thinking about mean everything from I'm thinking about mean everything from I'm thinking about depends on what time of day and the depends on what time of day and the depends on what time of day and the light that's coming in whether you'll light that's coming in whether you'll light that's coming in whether you'll see more wrinkles on my face or not. You see more wrinkles on my face or not. You see more wrinkles on my face or not. You know what I'm just saying the way we know what I'm just saying the way we know what I'm just saying the way we want to uh cosmetically you know we want to uh cosmetically you know we want to uh cosmetically you know we cover up elements of aging. I'm not cover up elements of aging. I'm not cover up elements of aging. I'm not entirely opposed to cosmetics and entirely opposed to cosmetics and entirely opposed to cosmetics and things, but to totally eradicate the things, but to totally eradicate the things, but to totally eradicate the realities of aging, I think, is a realities of aging, I think, is a realities of aging, I think, is a problem and a concern and to recognize problem and a concern and to recognize problem and a concern and to recognize that loss um is part of the human that loss um is part of the human that loss um is part of the human experience. And I think that will be the experience. And I think that will be the experience. And I think that will be the temptation to cover over um and to with temptation to cover over um and to with temptation to cover over um and to with whether it's you know through um whether it's you know through um whether it's you know through um simulation through images um or you know simulation through images um or you know simulation through images um or you know whatever we want to try to whatever we want to try to whatever we want to try to prosthetically create with the kind of prosthetically create with the kind of prosthetically create with the kind of bodies that we project we could be or bodies that we project we could be or bodies that we project we could be or house those are my deeper concerns that house those are my deeper concerns that house those are my deeper concerns that would be I don't believe um would be I don't believe um would be I don't believe um my yeah they would verge on the idea of my yeah they would verge on the idea of my yeah they would verge on the idea of idolatry would be my concern would be idolatry would be my concern would be idolatry would be my concern would be closer to that [snorts] and so what we closer to that [snorts] and so what we closer to that [snorts] and so what we the Christian shares with the the Christian shares with the the Christian shares with the transhumanist is a recognition that transhumanist is a recognition that transhumanist is a recognition that something about the limits are difficult something about the limits are difficult something about the limits are difficult and bad and we're not meant to be and bad and we're not meant to be and bad and we're not meant to be because we are the side of the fall because we are the side of the fall because we are the side of the fall we're going to disagree with the we're going to disagree with the we're going to disagree with the solution or the disagree with how we get solution or the disagree with how we get solution or the disagree with how we get there because my concern is any human there because my concern is any human there because my concern is any human effort uh to try to eliminate suffering

effort uh to try to eliminate suffering effort uh to try to eliminate suffering I think it's um I don't think we'll I think it's um I don't think we'll I think it's um I don't think we'll actually ever be able to eliminate actually ever be able to eliminate actually ever be able to eliminate suffering I think every time we create a suffering I think every time we create a suffering I think every time we create a technology there are unintended technology there are unintended technology there are unintended consequences and even in medicine we consequences and even in medicine we consequences and even in medicine we look at all the ways that we have gained look at all the ways that we have gained look at all the ways that we have gained uh you know we've we are living longer uh you know we've we are living longer uh you know we've we are living longer and yet there are diseases that we do and yet there are diseases that we do and yet there are diseases that we do want to cure and yet I don't think we'll want to cure and yet I don't think we'll want to cure and yet I don't think we'll ever eliminate suffering and I'm ever eliminate suffering and I'm ever eliminate suffering and I'm concerned about medicine when it tries concerned about medicine when it tries concerned about medicine when it tries to seek that goal. I actually think that to seek that goal. I actually think that to seek that goal. I actually think that it is no longer attending to the it is no longer attending to the it is no longer attending to the realities of what it means to be human realities of what it means to be human realities of what it means to be human and the idea that care is the most and the idea that care is the most and the idea that care is the most significant goal versus cure and that we significant goal versus cure and that we significant goal versus cure and that we are actually accompanying what Howard are actually accompanying what Howard are actually accompanying what Howard Ross would say is we actually are Ross would say is we actually are Ross would say is we actually are accompanying accompanying accompanying um practicing the accompiment of of um practicing the accompiment of of um practicing the accompiment of of individuals with illness that they are individuals with illness that they are individuals with illness that they are not alone on this journey of finitude. not alone on this journey of finitude. not alone on this journey of finitude. And that's what medicine is for is an And that's what medicine is for is an And that's what medicine is for is an awareness of the finitude and frailty of awareness of the finitude and frailty of awareness of the finitude and frailty of life versus trying to cover over and life versus trying to cover over and life versus trying to cover over and eliminate those realities. Um so that I eliminate those realities. Um so that I eliminate those realities. Um so that I would say would be the distinction but would say would be the distinction but would say would be the distinction but there's still hope and I think there's there's still hope and I think there's there's still hope and I think there's still the possibility of growth um in still the possibility of growth um in still the possibility of growth um in this inwardly we are being renewed day this inwardly we are being renewed day this inwardly we are being renewed day by day. um and that our hope is actually by day. um and that our hope is actually by day. um and that our hope is actually on Christ and even it could be a on Christ and even it could be a on Christ and even it could be a beautiful um vision even with the beautiful um vision even with the beautiful um vision even with the dimming of sight of a deep spiritual dimming of sight of a deep spiritual dimming of sight of a deep spiritual vision.

vision. vision. >> Amen. Amen. Let's let's talk more about >> Amen. Amen. Let's let's talk more about >> Amen. Amen. Let's let's talk more about that hope um after dwelling for quite a that hope um after dwelling for quite a that hope um after dwelling for quite a while as we have in in limits and and um while as we have in in limits and and um while as we have in in limits and and um sort of the the the finitude of our sort of the the the finitude of our sort of the the the finitude of our existence. You you write beautifully existence. You you write beautifully existence. You you write beautifully about the the idea of the beatotific about the the idea of the beatotific about the the idea of the beatotific vision. This this hope of seeing God vision. This this hope of seeing God vision. This this hope of seeing God face to face one day. And it it really face to face one day. And it it really face to face one day. And it it really struck me that there's a profound struck me that there's a profound struck me that there's a profound difference between that vision of the difference between that vision of the difference between that vision of the future and the vision of the future that future and the vision of the future that future and the vision of the future that Silicon Valley is offering us. Um, Silicon Valley is offering us. Um, Silicon Valley is offering us. Um, >> what do you think is, >> what do you think is, >> what do you think is, can you try and get us to the heart of can you try and get us to the heart of can you try and get us to the heart of the difference between a biblical vision the difference between a biblical vision the difference between a biblical vision of hope and a biblical vision of the of hope and a biblical vision of the of hope and a biblical vision of the future and the the vision of hope in the future and the the vision of hope in the future and the the vision of hope in the future that AI is holding out for us future that AI is holding out for us future that AI is holding out for us today? No, today? No, today? No, >> that's a great question and quite >> that's a great question and quite >> that's a great question and quite honestly, it's interesting even when you honestly, it's interesting even when you honestly, it's interesting even when you ask this, I'm like the core scripture ask this, I'm like the core scripture ask this, I'm like the core scripture that was behind the whole book for me that was behind the whole book for me that was behind the whole book for me was actually 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. this was actually 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. this was actually 2 Corinthians 3 and 4. this idea of you know we all with unveiled idea of you know we all with unveiled idea of you know we all with unveiled faces are where essentially we're faces are where essentially we're faces are where essentially we're imaging God Christ who is the or the imaging God Christ who is the or the imaging God Christ who is the or the image of of God and I'm not quoting it image of of God and I'm not quoting it image of of God and I'm not quoting it directly but this idea that we together directly but this idea that we together directly but this idea that we together are imaging Christ who is the image of are imaging Christ who is the image of are imaging Christ who is the image of God and we are being transformed more in God and we are being transformed more in God and we are being transformed more in his image and likeness and it's idea of his image and likeness and it's idea of his image and likeness and it's idea of the face of Christ right the face of the face of Christ right the face of the face of Christ right the face of Christ who is the image of God and I was Christ who is the image of God and I was Christ who is the image of God and I was drawn to this idea of face I started drawn to this idea of face I started drawn to this idea of face I started just kind of researching and came across just kind of researching and came across just kind of researching and came across this idea looking at the Hebrew term

this idea looking at the Hebrew term this idea looking at the Hebrew term panim used in the Old Testament faces panim used in the Old Testament faces panim used in the Old Testament faces often with the term presence and this often with the term presence and this often with the term presence and this idea that presence is all throughout the idea that presence is all throughout the idea that presence is all throughout the Old Testament and this idea of that Old Testament and this idea of that Old Testament and this idea of that Christ was among the people Jesus walked Christ was among the people Jesus walked Christ was among the people Jesus walked with people he was he bore a human face with people he was he bore a human face with people he was he bore a human face and yet and people were they ate with and yet and people were they ate with and yet and people were they ate with him face to face that's part of the him face to face that's part of the him face to face that's part of the communion uh you think of the we now communion uh you think of the we now communion uh you think of the we now practice the Lord's supper or communion practice the Lord's supper or communion practice the Lord's supper or communion eucharist and our different you know eucharist and our different you know eucharist and our different you know ecclesiologies But when we do that, we ecclesiologies But when we do that, we ecclesiologies But when we do that, we are often face to face. There's an are often face to face. There's an are often face to face. There's an element of communion is face to face. element of communion is face to face. element of communion is face to face. And it's 1 Corinthians 13. We long, we And it's 1 Corinthians 13. We long, we And it's 1 Corinthians 13. We long, we are not yet fully face to face. So we are not yet fully face to face. So we are not yet fully face to face. So we long for this escatological vision when long for this escatological vision when long for this escatological vision when we will be in the fullness where uh you we will be in the fullness where uh you we will be in the fullness where uh you know Augustine would say we are fully know Augustine would say we are fully know Augustine would say we are fully seen, fully known and fully loved in uh seen, fully known and fully loved in uh seen, fully known and fully loved in uh relationship to the triune God. And that relationship to the triune God. And that relationship to the triune God. And that is where in time we are most known and is where in time we are most known and is where in time we are most known and loved. this desire, this restlessness loved. this desire, this restlessness loved. this desire, this restlessness that long that seeks belonging. It's that long that seeks belonging. It's that long that seeks belonging. It's when we belong to God as image of God when we belong to God as image of God when we belong to God as image of God and we find our identity through this and we find our identity through this and we find our identity through this communion with God that we truly are communion with God that we truly are communion with God that we truly are fully most ourselves and really we are fully most ourselves and really we are fully most ourselves and really we are longing for that esqueological when we longing for that esqueological when we longing for that esqueological when we will be uh transfigured. We will be will be uh transfigured. We will be will be uh transfigured. We will be resurrected. We will be perfected in resurrected. We will be perfected in resurrected. We will be perfected in union with God in the fullness. And union with God in the fullness. And union with God in the fullness. And there all of our motives are are are there all of our motives are are are there all of our motives are are are laid bare and we are um I think it's laid bare and we are um I think it's laid bare and we are um I think it's actually Tim Keller's I teach from his actually Tim Keller's I teach from his actually Tim Keller's I teach from his little book on death and he has that little book on death and he has that little book on death and he has that reflection he talks I think it was

reflection he talks I think it was reflection he talks I think it was whether it was he and Kathy and they whether it was he and Kathy and they whether it was he and Kathy and they were talking about um when we get to were talking about um when we get to were talking about um when we get to heaven it'll be like there you are heaven it'll be like there you are heaven it'll be like there you are I saw a glimpse of you when we were in I saw a glimpse of you when we were in I saw a glimpse of you when we were in time but there you are in all your glory time but there you are in all your glory time but there you are in all your glory and sense of as you reflect the one who and sense of as you reflect the one who and sense of as you reflect the one who is glory Sorry. And it's the fullness of is glory Sorry. And it's the fullness of is glory Sorry. And it's the fullness of who you were meant to be. And that's who you were meant to be. And that's who you were meant to be. And that's what we are moving toward. And so that what we are moving toward. And so that what we are moving toward. And so that is the teological vision, the goal, big is the teological vision, the goal, big is the teological vision, the goal, big word for goal that we are oriented word for goal that we are oriented word for goal that we are oriented toward on the journey of life through toward on the journey of life through toward on the journey of life through time. And that goal should then shape time. And that goal should then shape time. And that goal should then shape how we think about encountering Christ, how we think about encountering Christ, how we think about encountering Christ, the face of Christ through his word, the the face of Christ through his word, the the face of Christ through his word, the face of Christ through the communion, face of Christ through the communion, face of Christ through the communion, the fellowship, communion through the the fellowship, communion through the the fellowship, communion through the church and encountering the face of church and encountering the face of church and encountering the face of Christ through uh the ordinances uh Christ through uh the ordinances uh Christ through uh the ordinances uh through the way we practice um the through the way we practice um the through the way we practice um the liturgy and you know particularly liturgy and you know particularly liturgy and you know particularly communion I think in baptism and the communion I think in baptism and the communion I think in baptism and the other ordinances how we how we encounter other ordinances how we how we encounter other ordinances how we how we encounter Christ in time which is reflective of Christ in time which is reflective of Christ in time which is reflective of the eternal intersecting time when we the eternal intersecting time when we the eternal intersecting time when we again Thy kingdom come, thy will be done again Thy kingdom come, thy will be done again Thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. And our on earth as it is in heaven. And our on earth as it is in heaven. And our loves, our faith, hope, and love is loves, our faith, hope, and love is loves, our faith, hope, and love is aligned prayerfully with who God is on aligned prayerfully with who God is on aligned prayerfully with who God is on this journey through time. So that's my this journey through time. So that's my this journey through time. So that's my hope for readers as they encounter this, hope for readers as they encounter this, hope for readers as they encounter this, but also as a community of believers as but also as a community of believers as but also as a community of believers as we are discerning in this moment. I we are discerning in this moment. I we are discerning in this moment. I actually think it's an opportunity. It's actually think it's an opportunity. It's actually think it's an opportunity. It's a great challenge.

a great challenge. a great challenge. If we think about the challenges of AI If we think about the challenges of AI If we think about the challenges of AI which is actually really philosophers which is actually really philosophers which is actually really philosophers you know secularists a lot of people are you know secularists a lot of people are you know secularists a lot of people are thinking now what does it mean to be thinking now what does it mean to be thinking now what does it mean to be human up against this new questions human up against this new questions human up against this new questions around AI so I think there's a lot of around AI so I think there's a lot of around AI so I think there's a lot of opportunity even in the challenge this opportunity even in the challenge this opportunity even in the challenge this idea of of whether it's the postmodern idea of of whether it's the postmodern idea of of whether it's the postmodern turn to is knowledge only subjective is turn to is knowledge only subjective is turn to is knowledge only subjective is there something objective as well as the there something objective as well as the there something objective as well as the question when I look at a lot of question when I look at a lot of question when I look at a lot of philosophers and even more secular philosophers and even more secular philosophers and even more secular thinkers is turning more towards whether thinkers is turning more towards whether thinkers is turning more towards whether it's the transcendentalists it's the transcendentalists it's the transcendentalists wanting something transcendent. wanting something transcendent. wanting something transcendent. Something about humans are more than Something about humans are more than Something about humans are more than machine which I actually think is an machine which I actually think is an machine which I actually think is an opportunity particularly for theology opportunity particularly for theology opportunity particularly for theology but particularly for the church to say but particularly for the church to say but particularly for the church to say yes we always were made to be more. We yes we always were made to be more. We yes we always were made to be more. We image God. We have the hope of eternity image God. We have the hope of eternity image God. We have the hope of eternity in our hearts and so we we were meant in our hearts and so we we were meant in our hearts and so we we were meant for something more. We were made for for something more. We were made for for something more. We were made for communion with with God the divine communion with with God the divine communion with with God the divine other. And that lifts up prayerfully our other. And that lifts up prayerfully our other. And that lifts up prayerfully our relationships in real time and actually relationships in real time and actually relationships in real time and actually means when I am encountering another means when I am encountering another means when I am encountering another human being, I should now have actually human being, I should now have actually human being, I should now have actually more of a reverence for the holy that I more of a reverence for the holy that I more of a reverence for the holy that I am now encountering and should actually am now encountering and should actually am now encountering and should actually in a sense begin to change our in a sense begin to change our in a sense begin to change our perspective of what it means to be in perspective of what it means to be in perspective of what it means to be in the presence of other human beings. Um, the presence of other human beings. Um, the presence of other human beings. Um, and certainly those that are bearing and and certainly those that are bearing and and certainly those that are bearing and confessing that they are followers of confessing that they are followers of confessing that they are followers of Christ and how we can learn from them.

Christ and how we can learn from them. Christ and how we can learn from them. What what a rich response and and I look What what a rich response and and I look What what a rich response and and I look I I couldn't agree more with this idea I I couldn't agree more with this idea I I couldn't agree more with this idea that this is a moment of opportunity for that this is a moment of opportunity for that this is a moment of opportunity for Christians. Like you you just pop onto Christians. Like you you just pop onto Christians. Like you you just pop onto YouTube at the moment and and all sorts YouTube at the moment and and all sorts YouTube at the moment and and all sorts of people are asking the question, what of people are asking the question, what of people are asking the question, what does it mean to be a human in the age of does it mean to be a human in the age of does it mean to be a human in the age of AI? When AI can do my job better than I AI? When AI can do my job better than I AI? When AI can do my job better than I can, who what's left of me? Who am I? can, who what's left of me? Who am I? can, who what's left of me? Who am I? like that question is on the table right like that question is on the table right like that question is on the table right now in our culture now in our culture now in our culture >> in a way that I don't think it's been on >> in a way that I don't think it's been on >> in a way that I don't think it's been on the table certainly in my adult lifetime the table certainly in my adult lifetime the table certainly in my adult lifetime and what a precious moment therefore for and what a precious moment therefore for and what a precious moment therefore for Christians to say let let me let me Christians to say let let me let me Christians to say let let me let me invite you into a view of humanity that invite you into a view of humanity that invite you into a view of humanity that isn't based on what I can get done and isn't based on what I can get done and isn't based on what I can get done and getting more done makes me more valuable getting more done makes me more valuable getting more done makes me more valuable uh but but that is as you've been uh but but that is as you've been uh but but that is as you've been teasing out throughout this whole teasing out throughout this whole teasing out throughout this whole conversation uh you know about this this conversation uh you know about this this conversation uh you know about this this middle voice and actually about my middle voice and actually about my middle voice and actually about my limits as well. Let me let me show you a limits as well. Let me let me show you a limits as well. Let me let me show you a vision of limits that isn't just vision of limits that isn't just vision of limits that isn't just negative all the time and why that is negative all the time and why that is negative all the time and why that is actually liberating.

actually liberating. actually liberating. As we draw to a close now, I um asking As we draw to a close now, I um asking As we draw to a close now, I um asking every guest on the show two closing every guest on the show two closing every guest on the show two closing questions. Um uh what's one inefficient questions. Um uh what's one inefficient questions. Um uh what's one inefficient human habit that you're committed to human habit that you're committed to human habit that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI? And uh if AI keeping in the age of AI? And uh if AI keeping in the age of AI? And uh if AI is a mirror, what's one thing that it's is a mirror, what's one thing that it's is a mirror, what's one thing that it's revealed to you personally about your revealed to you personally about your revealed to you personally about your own heart? own heart? own heart? >> That's a great question. Um those are >> That's a great question. Um those are >> That's a great question. Um those are two great questions and ones I should two great questions and ones I should two great questions and ones I should continue to think about uh as you're continue to think about uh as you're continue to think about uh as you're posing it. This inefficient human habit. posing it. This inefficient human habit. posing it. This inefficient human habit. I whether it's the way I take notes I whether it's the way I take notes I whether it's the way I take notes um you know that I don't I don't want to um you know that I don't I don't want to um you know that I don't I don't want to offload writing. I don't want to offload offload writing. I don't want to offload offload writing. I don't want to offload my concerns about the educative goods my concerns about the educative goods my concerns about the educative goods that I would lose certain capacities but that I would lose certain capacities but that I would lose certain capacities but also I am concerned about multitasking also I am concerned about multitasking also I am concerned about multitasking and this is something I think about even and this is something I think about even and this is something I think about even whether I'm in a meeting or if I'm whether I'm in a meeting or if I'm whether I'm in a meeting or if I'm encountering like a student in office encountering like a student in office encountering like a student in office hours this importance of pausing to hours this importance of pausing to hours this importance of pausing to listen this goes back to the middle listen this goes back to the middle listen this goes back to the middle voice listen and respond which I voice listen and respond which I voice listen and respond which I actually think means I am called to be actually think means I am called to be actually think means I am called to be attuned to the presence of God in that attuned to the presence of God in that attuned to the presence of God in that individual and that's inefficient in the individual and that's inefficient in the individual and that's inefficient in the sense of I could be outsourcing in a sense of I could be outsourcing in a sense of I could be outsourcing in a meeting and often if I do that I'll miss meeting and often if I do that I'll miss meeting and often if I do that I'll miss the point of what the meeting was about the point of what the meeting was about the point of what the meeting was about even though I don't love being in even though I don't love being in even though I don't love being in meetings but I'm just saying it requires meetings but I'm just saying it requires meetings but I'm just saying it requires my focus and attention whatever it is I my focus and attention whatever it is I my focus and attention whatever it is I am tasked to do in that moment but am tasked to do in that moment but am tasked to do in that moment but people are not tasked so in the moments

people are not tasked so in the moments people are not tasked so in the moments that we are encountering others that may that we are encountering others that may that we are encountering others that may be considered inefficient from a be considered inefficient from a be considered inefficient from a productivity mode but actually it's productivity mode but actually it's productivity mode but actually it's deeply beneficial relationally um and I deeply beneficial relationally um and I deeply beneficial relationally um and I need that I need to have focus on others need that I need to have focus on others need that I need to have focus on others and that I receive a lot from learning and that I receive a lot from learning and that I receive a lot from learning from others, right? And then ultimately from others, right? And then ultimately from others, right? And then ultimately also learning from God and then um AI also learning from God and then um AI also learning from God and then um AI being a mirror. I mean, if you think being a mirror. I mean, if you think being a mirror. I mean, if you think about just even the ways that it bounced about just even the ways that it bounced about just even the ways that it bounced back whatever interesting little back whatever interesting little back whatever interesting little headline or whatever as I see it headline or whatever as I see it headline or whatever as I see it reflects my appetites and you know what reflects my appetites and you know what reflects my appetites and you know what do I dwell on or what am I too easily do I dwell on or what am I too easily do I dwell on or what am I too easily you know captivated by whether it's you you know captivated by whether it's you you know captivated by whether it's you know just all of these things that I know just all of these things that I know just all of these things that I think we have to be tempered by my think we have to be tempered by my think we have to be tempered by my biggest concern is that you know biggest concern is that you know biggest concern is that you know tickling ears or itching ears are we we tickling ears or itching ears are we we tickling ears or itching ears are we we are drawn to hearing what we want to are drawn to hearing what we want to are drawn to hearing what we want to hear and often that is self-praise So, I hear and often that is self-praise So, I hear and often that is self-praise So, I am concerned about ways that we could am concerned about ways that we could am concerned about ways that we could embibbe technology that is too um embibbe technology that is too um embibbe technology that is too um narcissistic and I have to look at ways narcissistic and I have to look at ways narcissistic and I have to look at ways that um I'm just going to be honest even that um I'm just going to be honest even that um I'm just going to be honest even in this particular um what do we we're in this particular um what do we we're in this particular um what do we we're having this conversation there's this having this conversation there's this having this conversation there's this image of myself over here on one side an image of myself over here on one side an image of myself over here on one side an image of you and I actually don't think image of you and I actually don't think image of you and I actually don't think we were made to have conversation where we were made to have conversation where we were made to have conversation where there's images of ourselves pointed back there's images of ourselves pointed back there's images of ourselves pointed back at us so actually I do much better if at us so actually I do much better if at us so actually I do much better if I'm not looking over at myself and I'm I'm not looking over at myself and I'm I'm not looking over at myself and I'm looking at you as if I was in a looking at you as if I was in a looking at you as if I was in a conversation in a room with you. Though, conversation in a room with you. Though, conversation in a room with you. Though, you know, it's helpful for people who you know, it's helpful for people who you know, it's helpful for people who are joining in as if they're in the

are joining in as if they're in the are joining in as if they're in the conversation with us. But I don't think conversation with us. But I don't think conversation with us. But I don't think we were made to have all of our Zoom and we were made to have all of our Zoom and we were made to have all of our Zoom and all these things where we actually have all these things where we actually have all these things where we actually have these reflections of ourselves back at these reflections of ourselves back at these reflections of ourselves back at us all the time. Recordings actually, I us all the time. Recordings actually, I us all the time. Recordings actually, I hate recordings. I'm sorry to doing this hate recordings. I'm sorry to doing this hate recordings. I'm sorry to doing this in a sense of we weren't meant I will in a sense of we weren't meant I will in a sense of we weren't meant I will make mistakes and I don't really want to make mistakes and I don't really want to make mistakes and I don't really want to obsess over them or listen to them and obsess over them or listen to them and obsess over them or listen to them and go back and replay. But there's go back and replay. But there's go back and replay. But there's something through our mistakes or something through our mistakes or something through our mistakes or through the human habits of conversation through the human habits of conversation through the human habits of conversation or whatnot to be learned and that or whatnot to be learned and that or whatnot to be learned and that spontaneity which is the human reality spontaneity which is the human reality spontaneity which is the human reality which prevents us from then making it an which prevents us from then making it an which prevents us from then making it an idol which is like something that's idol which is like something that's idol which is like something that's stagnant and you know that I just go and stagnant and you know that I just go and stagnant and you know that I just go and observe and watch. So there's something observe and watch. So there's something observe and watch. So there's something good about spontaneity and then not good about spontaneity and then not good about spontaneity and then not being um absorbed into how do you call being um absorbed into how do you call being um absorbed into how do you call this a kind of narcissistic this a kind of narcissistic this a kind of narcissistic kind of selfobsession. kind of selfobsession. kind of selfobsession. you know, what whatever it is that would you know, what whatever it is that would you know, what whatever it is that would tempt us. Um, it's just ironic that we tempt us. Um, it's just ironic that we tempt us. Um, it's just ironic that we have images of ourselves reflecting back have images of ourselves reflecting back have images of ourselves reflecting back to us all the time is what I want to to us all the time is what I want to to us all the time is what I want to point out. point out. point out. >> What a what a brilliant observation. I'd >> What a what a brilliant observation. I'd >> What a what a brilliant observation. I'd never thought about it that way before, never thought about it that way before, never thought about it that way before, but you're absolutely right. Like, how but you're absolutely right. Like, how but you're absolutely right. Like, how long do we spend during the average Zoom long do we spend during the average Zoom long do we spend during the average Zoom meeting or Teams meeting actually meeting or Teams meeting actually meeting or Teams meeting actually looking at ourselves rather than looking looking at ourselves rather than looking looking at ourselves rather than looking at the other people? Whereas if we're, at the other people? Whereas if we're, at the other people? Whereas if we're, you know, in the room with them, you you know, in the room with them, you you know, in the room with them, you don't spend any time looking at yourself don't spend any time looking at yourself don't spend any time looking at yourself cuz you can't you can't see yourself.

cuz you can't you can't see yourself. cuz you can't you can't see yourself. Um, Um, Um, >> and yes, that is profoundly >> and yes, that is profoundly >> and yes, that is profoundly disorienting and and narcissistic. disorienting and and narcissistic. disorienting and and narcissistic. >> Look, we we've raised a lot of issues uh >> Look, we we've raised a lot of issues uh >> Look, we we've raised a lot of issues uh in this episode and and people watching in this episode and and people watching in this episode and and people watching or listening might have follow-ups they or listening might have follow-ups they or listening might have follow-ups they they want to explore or questions they they want to explore or questions they they want to explore or questions they want to ask. And I I just want to say if want to ask. And I I just want to say if want to ask. And I I just want to say if if you do want to take these ideas if you do want to take these ideas if you do want to take these ideas further, uh please do come and join the further, uh please do come and join the further, uh please do come and join the Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where Silicon Spiritualities Discord uh where we're learning together how to follow we're learning together how to follow we're learning together how to follow Jesus in a tech saturated world. You're Jesus in a tech saturated world. You're Jesus in a tech saturated world. You're going to find in there practical life going to find in there practical life going to find in there practical life experiments for every episode, things experiments for every episode, things experiments for every episode, things you can do, uh behaviors you can you can do, uh behaviors you can you can do, uh behaviors you can cultivate in in the light of each of cultivate in in the light of each of cultivate in in the light of each of these um episodes. And you'll also find these um episodes. And you'll also find these um episodes. And you'll also find details of an upcoming online cohort as details of an upcoming online cohort as details of an upcoming online cohort as well. Uh the link's waiting for you in well. Uh the link's waiting for you in well. Uh the link's waiting for you in the show notes. Uh and we'd love to see the show notes. Uh and we'd love to see the show notes. Uh and we'd love to see you there. Um but for now, um Autumn, you there. Um but for now, um Autumn, you there. Um but for now, um Autumn, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking it's been an absolute pleasure speaking it's been an absolute pleasure speaking with you about these things. Uh uh just with you about these things. Uh uh just with you about these things. Uh uh just scratching the surface of the deep scratching the surface of the deep scratching the surface of the deep things of God uh in relation to things of God uh in relation to things of God uh in relation to artificial intelligence. So, thank you artificial intelligence. So, thank you artificial intelligence. So, thank you ever so much.

ever so much. ever so much. >> Thank you. Thank you so much as well.