Old Testament Theology with Mary Hannah

There's something about watching There's something about watching scripture work with itself. Watch scripture work with itself. Watch scripture work with itself. Watch authors authors authors make connections that are creative but make connections that are creative but make connections that are creative but yet really robust and good and sensible yet really robust and good and sensible yet really robust and good and sensible in the in the scriptures in the text. in the in the scriptures in the text. in the in the scriptures in the text. >> Yeah. And there's some there's something >> Yeah. And there's some there's something >> Yeah. And there's some there's something about discovering that for yourself that about discovering that for yourself that about discovering that for yourself that not reading in a commentary, not reading not reading in a commentary, not reading not reading in a commentary, not reading in a book where you're you're just in a book where you're you're just in a book where you're you're just reading the Bible and the pieces start reading the Bible and the pieces start reading the Bible and the pieces start to fall. to fall. to fall. >> It's a bit more eyeball to eyeball. It >> It's a bit more eyeball to eyeball. It >> It's a bit more eyeball to eyeball. It feels like feels like feels like looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to eyeball in in some respects where you're eyeball in in some respects where you're eyeball in in some respects where you're just seeing the richness and what we just seeing the richness and what we just seeing the richness and what we might say is the manifold wisdom of God might say is the manifold wisdom of God might say is the manifold wisdom of God as that wisdom is displayed in the as that wisdom is displayed in the as that wisdom is displayed in the person of Christ. Welcome to the Biblical Theology Welcome to the Biblical Theology Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Briefing, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon Coalition. I'm Matt Harmon >> and I'm Ben Glad >> and I'm Ben Glad >> and I'm Ben Glad >> and we are excited to be here today with >> and we are excited to be here today with >> and we are excited to be here today with Mary Hannah. And we've invited Mary to Mary Hannah. And we've invited Mary to Mary Hannah. And we've invited Mary to join us because of her ministry of join us because of her ministry of join us because of her ministry of helping people uh in the local church helping people uh in the local church helping people uh in the local church understand and be able to teach the understand and be able to teach the understand and be able to teach the scriptures with a special emphasis on scriptures with a special emphasis on scriptures with a special emphasis on biblical theology and how to interpret biblical theology and how to interpret biblical theology and how to interpret scripture. So, let's get the official scripture. So, let's get the official scripture. So, let's get the official Mary Hannah uh biography here Mary Hannah uh biography here Mary Hannah uh biography here established. Let's do it.

established. Let's do it. established. Let's do it. >> It's going to take you a long time. >> It's going to take you a long time. >> It's going to take you a long time. >> There we go. So, she earned a PhD from >> There we go. So, she earned a PhD from >> There we go. So, she earned a PhD from Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and Trinity Evangelical Divinity School and is currently the director of women in is currently the director of women in is currently the director of women in ministry at Second Presbyterian Church ministry at Second Presbyterian Church ministry at Second Presbyterian Church in Memphis, Tennessee. She also teaches in Memphis, Tennessee. She also teaches in Memphis, Tennessee. She also teaches Old Testament at Memphis City Seminary. Old Testament at Memphis City Seminary. Old Testament at Memphis City Seminary. Mary enjoys teaching and training others Mary enjoys teaching and training others Mary enjoys teaching and training others to teach the scriptures, especially in to teach the scriptures, especially in to teach the scriptures, especially in the context of the local church. She and the context of the local church. She and the context of the local church. She and her husband Jeff love all things her husband Jeff love all things her husband Jeff love all things Memphis. Mary, welcome to the program. Memphis. Mary, welcome to the program. Memphis. Mary, welcome to the program. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> Thanks. It's great to be here. >> Tell me about Memphis barbecue. Uh, >> Tell me about Memphis barbecue. Uh, >> Tell me about Memphis barbecue. Uh, well, it is excellent. Um, lots of great well, it is excellent. Um, lots of great well, it is excellent. Um, lots of great choices, but I must say that I married a choices, but I must say that I married a choices, but I must say that I married a man who is on a barbecue team that just man who is on a barbecue team that just man who is on a barbecue team that just placed second placed second placed second >> in the world championship >> in the world championship >> in the world championship >> of ribs. >> of ribs. >> of ribs. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Wow. >> Don't hate me cuz you ain't me. >> Don't hate me cuz you ain't me. >> Don't hate me cuz you ain't me. >> And you didn't bring any for us. >> And you didn't bring any for us. >> And you didn't bring any for us. >> Do you have a big smoker? >> Do you have a big smoker? >> Do you have a big smoker? >> Obviously not. Um, I do not have a big >> Obviously not. Um, I do not have a big >> Obviously not. Um, I do not have a big smoker, but he has all the equipment. smoker, but he has all the equipment. smoker, but he has all the equipment. Uh, and I don't know anything about Uh, and I don't know anything about Uh, and I don't know anything about barbecue, but and we've only been barbecue, but and we've only been barbecue, but and we've only been married 3 years. I've learned a little married 3 years. I've learned a little married 3 years. I've learned a little bit, but the only thing that I have bit, but the only thing that I have bit, but the only thing that I have known and still know is that it's very known and still know is that it's very known and still know is that it's very good and it's great when somebody else good and it's great when somebody else good and it's great when somebody else makes it for you.

makes it for you. makes it for you. >> Does he smell like barbecue? >> Does he smell like barbecue? >> Does he smell like barbecue? >> Well, uh, since co I'm glad you've >> Well, uh, since co I'm glad you've >> Well, uh, since co I'm glad you've brought up a really painful part of my brought up a really painful part of my brought up a really painful part of my life, Ben. Um, my sense of smell is not life, Ben. Um, my sense of smell is not life, Ben. Um, my sense of smell is not the strongest, which actually I've heard the strongest, which actually I've heard the strongest, which actually I've heard is a good thing because I'm only three is a good thing because I'm only three is a good thing because I'm only three years into marriage and and maybe that's years into marriage and and maybe that's years into marriage and and maybe that's helped my marriage go well. helped my marriage go well. helped my marriage go well. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> That could help depending on certain >> That could help depending on certain >> That could help depending on certain circumstances. circumstances. circumstances. >> Yes. Like if your husband was into >> Yes. Like if your husband was into >> Yes. Like if your husband was into barbecue and cooking and grilling. barbecue and cooking and grilling. barbecue and cooking and grilling. >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, we didn't >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, we didn't >> Yeah. Yeah. All right. So, we didn't bring you on to fully talk about bring you on to fully talk about bring you on to fully talk about Memphis. You as interesting as that is, Memphis. You as interesting as that is, Memphis. You as interesting as that is, we did want to start by uh having you we did want to start by uh having you we did want to start by uh having you tell us a little bit about your journey tell us a little bit about your journey tell us a little bit about your journey with biblical theology. How did you get with biblical theology. How did you get with biblical theology. How did you get exposed to it? what were some of the exposed to it? what were some of the exposed to it? what were some of the kind of the key experiences for you in kind of the key experiences for you in kind of the key experiences for you in becoming uh knowledgeable about or just becoming uh knowledgeable about or just becoming uh knowledgeable about or just learning to love it? learning to love it? learning to love it? >> It's a great question. Um I I don't know >> It's a great question. Um I I don't know >> It's a great question. Um I I don't know when I was converted. I don't have a when I was converted. I don't have a when I was converted. I don't have a moment uh that I know about when I uh moment uh that I know about when I uh moment uh that I know about when I uh put my trust in Christ. I know it did put my trust in Christ. I know it did put my trust in Christ. I know it did happen in a moment, but I I don't know happen in a moment, but I I don't know happen in a moment, but I I don't know about it. Um but I would say my journey about it. Um but I would say my journey about it. Um but I would say my journey with biblical theology began in the pew with biblical theology began in the pew with biblical theology began in the pew as a child. So my parents came to as a child. So my parents came to as a child. So my parents came to Christ, they put their faith in Christ Christ, they put their faith in Christ Christ, they put their faith in Christ later in life. They'd already had uh later in life. They'd already had uh later in life. They'd already had uh some of their kiddos. And so by the time some of their kiddos. And so by the time some of their kiddos. And so by the time I came around, they were newer I came around, they were newer I came around, they were newer believers. Um but my dad had already believers. Um but my dad had already believers. Um but my dad had already decided to go into pastoral ministry.

decided to go into pastoral ministry. decided to go into pastoral ministry. And I was born at the beginning of their And I was born at the beginning of their And I was born at the beginning of their first uh local church together. So my first uh local church together. So my first uh local church together. So my mom was in informal ministry, my dad in mom was in informal ministry, my dad in mom was in informal ministry, my dad in formal ministry. Um but their ministry formal ministry. Um but their ministry formal ministry. Um but their ministry of the word in the home and then my of the word in the home and then my of the word in the home and then my dad's ministry of the word in the church dad's ministry of the word in the church dad's ministry of the word in the church context really is the most fundamental context really is the most fundamental context really is the most fundamental element of my journey with biblical element of my journey with biblical element of my journey with biblical theology and also the earliest. Uh so it theology and also the earliest. Uh so it theology and also the earliest. Uh so it really is the preached word seeing not really is the preached word seeing not really is the preached word seeing not simply um biblical theology used and simply um biblical theology used and simply um biblical theology used and learning a bit about how the testaments learning a bit about how the testaments learning a bit about how the testaments work together work together work together >> but relatedly more importantly seeing >> but relatedly more importantly seeing >> but relatedly more importantly seeing the person and work of Christ delighted the person and work of Christ delighted the person and work of Christ delighted in in in >> um in the pulpit and then transparently >> um in the pulpit and then transparently >> um in the pulpit and then transparently also in the home by both of my parents. also in the home by both of my parents. also in the home by both of my parents. So that launched it all and and So that launched it all and and So that launched it all and and continues to be the case. Um, in terms continues to be the case. Um, in terms continues to be the case. Um, in terms of journey with biblical theology, uh, a of journey with biblical theology, uh, a of journey with biblical theology, uh, a bit more technically, I've learned a bit more technically, I've learned a bit more technically, I've learned a great deal in biblical theology from Dr.

great deal in biblical theology from Dr. great deal in biblical theology from Dr. Don Carson. In fact, I uh, Don Carson. In fact, I uh, Don Carson. In fact, I uh, one of our sisters in this room one of our sisters in this room one of our sisters in this room mentioned a moment ago that she uh, was mentioned a moment ago that she uh, was mentioned a moment ago that she uh, was present for a workshop that I did at a present for a workshop that I did at a present for a workshop that I did at a TGC conference on biblical theology. And TGC conference on biblical theology. And TGC conference on biblical theology. And that was many years ago. And uh I was that was many years ago. And uh I was that was many years ago. And uh I was slated to teach that workshop. And so I slated to teach that workshop. And so I slated to teach that workshop. And so I reached out to the dawn, [laughter] Dr. reached out to the dawn, [laughter] Dr. reached out to the dawn, [laughter] Dr. Carson, as they refer to him in Carson, as they refer to him in Carson, as they refer to him in Australia, the dawn. And um asked him Australia, the dawn. And um asked him Australia, the dawn. And um asked him just some simple questions about the just some simple questions about the just some simple questions about the workshop. And he proceeded very workshop. And he proceeded very workshop. And he proceeded very graciously graciously graciously to basically show me that I didn't to basically show me that I didn't to basically show me that I didn't understand the discipline at all. And I understand the discipline at all. And I understand the discipline at all. And I thought, "Oh my goodness, I'm about to thought, "Oh my goodness, I'm about to thought, "Oh my goodness, I'm about to lead a workshop on this." But that lead a workshop on this." But that lead a workshop on this." But that really was a key moment in my journey really was a key moment in my journey really was a key moment in my journey where an older brother in Christ where an older brother in Christ where an older brother in Christ graciously took the time graciously took the time graciously took the time >> to train me in it, train me about the >> to train me in it, train me about the >> to train me in it, train me about the discipline and then I just had to work discipline and then I just had to work discipline and then I just had to work so hard to gear up to so hard to gear up to so hard to gear up to >> give a workshop at a conference that >> give a workshop at a conference that >> give a workshop at a conference that that he was responsible for. So um that he was responsible for. So um that he was responsible for. So um frankly my inadequacy uh being exposed frankly my inadequacy uh being exposed frankly my inadequacy uh being exposed and then about to be exposed further uh and then about to be exposed further uh and then about to be exposed further uh put some hustle in me.

put some hustle in me. put some hustle in me. >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Okay. [laughter] >> Yeah. what >> Yeah. what >> Yeah. what doing biblical theology from an Old doing biblical theology from an Old doing biblical theology from an Old Testament perspective as an Old Testament perspective as an Old Testament perspective as an Old Testament scholar is more difficult uh Testament scholar is more difficult uh Testament scholar is more difficult uh as far as from the academy the way that as far as from the academy the way that as far as from the academy the way that the academy works and the way the the academy works and the way the the academy works and the way the expectations are within it expectations are within it expectations are within it >> I'm a New Testament guy Matt's a New >> I'm a New Testament guy Matt's a New >> I'm a New Testament guy Matt's a New Testament guy for us for us I know Testament guy for us for us I know Testament guy for us for us I know you're numbered you're you're numbered you're you're numbered you're >> I'm neither a New Testament scholar nor >> I'm neither a New Testament scholar nor >> I'm neither a New Testament scholar nor a guy so [laughter] a guy so [laughter] a guy so [laughter] >> anyway carry on Ben >> anyway carry on Ben >> anyway carry on Ben >> you could always get another PhD then >> you could always get another PhD then >> you could always get another PhD then you can mix one of those two. you can mix one of those two. you can mix one of those two. >> Yes, that's [laughter] that is true. >> Yes, that's [laughter] that is true. >> Yes, that's [laughter] that is true. >> It's hard. It's easier for us to do >> It's hard. It's easier for us to do >> It's hard. It's easier for us to do biblical theology because we're New biblical theology because we're New biblical theology because we're New Testament guys. It's more acceptable. Testament guys. It's more acceptable. Testament guys. It's more acceptable. So, how do you you kind of have to jump So, how do you you kind of have to jump So, how do you you kind of have to jump through many hurdles to get into the New through many hurdles to get into the New through many hurdles to get into the New Testament and to build that biblical Testament and to build that biblical Testament and to build that biblical theology? Um, how do you do that? What theology? Um, how do you do that? What theology? Um, how do you do that? What are some ways? Uh, maybe it's some are some ways? Uh, maybe it's some are some ways? Uh, maybe it's some people that you read. How did you make people that you read. How did you make people that you read. How did you make that happen? that happen? that happen? >> Great question. And I've uh it goes >> Great question. And I've uh it goes >> Great question. And I've uh it goes without saying, but my favorite things without saying, but my favorite things without saying, but my favorite things to say are the ones that go without to say are the ones that go without to say are the ones that go without saying. [laughter] I love being saying. [laughter] I love being saying. [laughter] I love being redundant. Uh but I've got so much to redundant. Uh but I've got so much to redundant. Uh but I've got so much to learn. And also when I think back on my learn. And also when I think back on my learn. And also when I think back on my doctoral days, there are some ways in doctoral days, there are some ways in doctoral days, there are some ways in which being in the Old Testament which being in the Old Testament which being in the Old Testament department, I can see mistakes that I department, I can see mistakes that I department, I can see mistakes that I made. um ways that that I was um too made. um ways that that I was um too made. um ways that that I was um too cocky or a bit of a bravado about oh old cocky or a bit of a bravado about oh old cocky or a bit of a bravado about oh old testament scholars they don't properly testament scholars they don't properly testament scholars they don't properly see Christ etc. But but I do think see Christ etc. But but I do think see Christ etc. But but I do think you're on to something. I think that in you're on to something. I think that in you're on to something. I think that in the the guild um the Old Testament

the the guild um the Old Testament the the guild um the Old Testament departments are uh more reticent departments are uh more reticent departments are uh more reticent >> to uh even call the New Testament the >> to uh even call the New Testament the >> to uh even call the New Testament the New Testament. It's got to be the second New Testament. It's got to be the second New Testament. It's got to be the second testament. Yeah. testament. Yeah. testament. Yeah. >> Um and they speak a great deal about >> Um and they speak a great deal about >> Um and they speak a great deal about taking the Old Testament on its own taking the Old Testament on its own taking the Old Testament on its own terms. terms. terms. >> And so the the key question is well what >> And so the the key question is well what >> And so the the key question is well what are the terms of the Old Testament? Is are the terms of the Old Testament? Is are the terms of the Old Testament? Is it it it >> Christian scripture or not? >> Christian scripture or not? >> Christian scripture or not? >> Uh because in my view I am taking the >> Uh because in my view I am taking the >> Uh because in my view I am taking the Old Testament on its own terms right Old Testament on its own terms right Old Testament on its own terms right >> uh as Christian scripture. So there was >> uh as Christian scripture. So there was >> uh as Christian scripture. So there was a lot of struggle and I was grateful for a lot of struggle and I was grateful for a lot of struggle and I was grateful for it. I learned a great deal. And again, I it. I learned a great deal. And again, I it. I learned a great deal. And again, I I would do certain things differently, I would do certain things differently, I would do certain things differently, but um I wouldn't necessarily say that but um I wouldn't necessarily say that but um I wouldn't necessarily say that it's easier though from the New it's easier though from the New it's easier though from the New Testament um perspective in general. Testament um perspective in general. Testament um perspective in general. It's just in the academy. It's just in the academy. It's just in the academy. >> Yes. Does it mean it's more acceptable? >> Yes. Does it mean it's more acceptable? >> Yes. Does it mean it's more acceptable? >> And I think that is patently obvious not >> And I think that is patently obvious not >> And I think that is patently obvious not simply in um you know, the context out simply in um you know, the context out simply in um you know, the context out there, but also in an evangelical there, but also in an evangelical there, but also in an evangelical context. And for some reasons, I mean, I context. And for some reasons, I mean, I context. And for some reasons, I mean, I suspect you all feel the same way. Uh, suspect you all feel the same way. Uh, suspect you all feel the same way. Uh, we do at times jump far too quickly to we do at times jump far too quickly to we do at times jump far too quickly to the New Testament and undercut the the New Testament and undercut the the New Testament and undercut the importance of the Old Testament. Um, so importance of the Old Testament. Um, so importance of the Old Testament. Um, so I understand the reticence uh on on one I understand the reticence uh on on one I understand the reticence uh on on one level, level, level, >> but I would say that I think the the >> but I would say that I think the the >> but I would say that I think the the better Old Testament scholars like better Old Testament scholars like better Old Testament scholars like yourself notice that even within the Old yourself notice that even within the Old yourself notice that even within the Old Testament itself, there are development Testament itself, there are development Testament itself, there are development of themes and trajectories that the New

of themes and trajectories that the New of themes and trajectories that the New Testament is drawing on. So, it's not Testament is drawing on. So, it's not Testament is drawing on. So, it's not just, oh, they see this thing in Genesis just, oh, they see this thing in Genesis just, oh, they see this thing in Genesis and they jump straight from Genesis into and they jump straight from Genesis into and they jump straight from Genesis into what they're doing in the New Testament what they're doing in the New Testament what they're doing in the New Testament in Matthew or in or in uh Revelation, in Matthew or in or in uh Revelation, in Matthew or in or in uh Revelation, but they're tracking the development of but they're tracking the development of but they're tracking the development of those threads that maybe start in those threads that maybe start in those threads that maybe start in Genesis, but they get expanded out in Genesis, but they get expanded out in Genesis, but they get expanded out in Exodus and then in the prophets. And so, Exodus and then in the prophets. And so, Exodus and then in the prophets. And so, the New Testament authors are the New Testament authors are the New Testament authors are essentially following their precursors essentially following their precursors essentially following their precursors in the Old Testament. So there's in the Old Testament. So there's in the Old Testament. So there's absolutely a place for Old Testament absolutely a place for Old Testament absolutely a place for Old Testament scholars to say, look, even within the scholars to say, look, even within the scholars to say, look, even within the Old Testament itself, there are things Old Testament itself, there are things Old Testament itself, there are things that point forward to that anticipate that point forward to that anticipate that point forward to that anticipate where the New Testament just kind of where the New Testament just kind of where the New Testament just kind of takes the last step in an already takes the last step in an already takes the last step in an already developing pattern that's there on its developing pattern that's there on its developing pattern that's there on its own terms in the Old Testament itself. own terms in the Old Testament itself. own terms in the Old Testament itself. >> I'm in I'm in agreement with that uh by >> I'm in I'm in agreement with that uh by >> I'm in I'm in agreement with that uh by and large. I guess what I would say is and large. I guess what I would say is and large. I guess what I would say is uh in my experience in the evangelical uh in my experience in the evangelical uh in my experience in the evangelical realm of Old Testament scholarship uh realm of Old Testament scholarship uh realm of Old Testament scholarship uh Old Testament scholars recognize that Old Testament scholars recognize that Old Testament scholars recognize that >> um it's it's not that uh there isn't a >> um it's it's not that uh there isn't a >> um it's it's not that uh there isn't a recognition that trajectories and and recognition that trajectories and and recognition that trajectories and and typologies are developed and um etc.

typologies are developed and um etc. typologies are developed and um etc. It's that there's sometimes, like for It's that there's sometimes, like for It's that there's sometimes, like for example, I used a word in my draft example, I used a word in my draft example, I used a word in my draft dissertation, uh, I referred to, um, the dissertation, uh, I referred to, um, the dissertation, uh, I referred to, um, the new covenant quote unquote eclipsing the new covenant quote unquote eclipsing the new covenant quote unquote eclipsing the old. old. old. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And what I meant was it was just a poor >> And what I meant was it was just a poor >> And what I meant was it was just a poor use of the word. use of the word. use of the word. >> You meant fulfilled. >> You meant fulfilled. >> You meant fulfilled. >> I meant fulfilled with escalation that >> I meant fulfilled with escalation that >> I meant fulfilled with escalation that it outsurpasses. But that's uncairful language on my part But that's uncairful language on my part and I understand the objection. Yeah. and I understand the objection. Yeah. and I understand the objection. Yeah. So, um, again, I do think there is So, um, again, I do think there is So, um, again, I do think there is there's reason to be reticent. It there's reason to be reticent. It there's reason to be reticent. It doesn't I think it's a bit of a straw doesn't I think it's a bit of a straw doesn't I think it's a bit of a straw man if we imagine that the only reason man if we imagine that the only reason man if we imagine that the only reason that um, Old Testament scholars or that um, Old Testament scholars or that um, Old Testament scholars or departments are reticent reticent is if departments are reticent reticent is if departments are reticent reticent is if they somehow don't recognize that the they somehow don't recognize that the they somehow don't recognize that the Old Testament itself is developing these Old Testament itself is developing these Old Testament itself is developing these trajectories. I think many of them do, trajectories. I think many of them do, trajectories. I think many of them do, right? Uh but also people like me use right? Uh but also people like me use right? Uh but also people like me use word words like eclipse and rightly the word words like eclipse and rightly the word words like eclipse and rightly the flag should be raised on that. flag should be raised on that. flag should be raised on that. >> Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about >> Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about >> Yeah. So we've talked a little bit about your background in the academy, but you your background in the academy, but you your background in the academy, but you also have a huge heart for the local also have a huge heart for the local also have a huge heart for the local church. Tell us a little bit about your church. Tell us a little bit about your church. Tell us a little bit about your ministry in the local church, what that ministry in the local church, what that ministry in the local church, what that looks like. Um what your kind of looks like. Um what your kind of looks like. Um what your kind of day-to-day ministry looks like in that day-to-day ministry looks like in that day-to-day ministry looks like in that context. It's a great question, Matt, context. It's a great question, Matt, context. It's a great question, Matt, and I'm sorry I don't have a succinct and I'm sorry I don't have a succinct and I'm sorry I don't have a succinct answer because the day-to-day it's it's answer because the day-to-day it's it's answer because the day-to-day it's it's quite different day-to-day, but uh my quite different day-to-day, but uh my quite different day-to-day, but uh my title is director of women ministry.

title is director of women ministry. title is director of women ministry. Basically, the way that I think about my Basically, the way that I think about my Basically, the way that I think about my role is my role is to come alongside and role is my role is to come alongside and role is my role is to come alongside and assist my brother elders in their assist my brother elders in their assist my brother elders in their shephering of women. Mostly focused on shephering of women. Mostly focused on shephering of women. Mostly focused on word ministry in various forms and word ministry in various forms and word ministry in various forms and fashions. So, I uh teach the scriptures fashions. So, I uh teach the scriptures fashions. So, I uh teach the scriptures in a um formal way. I'm also I have a in a um formal way. I'm also I have a in a um formal way. I'm also I have a group of young women whom I'm training group of young women whom I'm training group of young women whom I'm training as uh expositional teachers as well. I'm as uh expositional teachers as well. I'm as uh expositional teachers as well. I'm um little pastoring, you know, meeting um little pastoring, you know, meeting um little pastoring, you know, meeting with women, counseling, etc. So, with women, counseling, etc. So, with women, counseling, etc. So, engaging in that kind of onetoone word engaging in that kind of onetoone word engaging in that kind of onetoone word ministry and biblical theology comes up ministry and biblical theology comes up ministry and biblical theology comes up a great deal in onetoone word ministry. a great deal in onetoone word ministry. a great deal in onetoone word ministry. Um Um Um >> can you give us you give an example? >> can you give us you give an example? >> can you give us you give an example? >> Yeah, there's got to be one out there. >> Yeah, there's got to be one out there. >> Yeah, there's got to be one out there. Yeah, I mean I was this isn't one to one Yeah, I mean I was this isn't one to one Yeah, I mean I was this isn't one to one but it is small group. Just last week I but it is small group. Just last week I but it is small group. Just last week I was meeting with a gathering of some of was meeting with a gathering of some of was meeting with a gathering of some of our sisters who are mostly in their late our sisters who are mostly in their late our sisters who are mostly in their late 70s 80s who are recently widowed. Um 70s 80s who are recently widowed. Um 70s 80s who are recently widowed. Um most of them I think uh have been most of them I think uh have been most of them I think uh have been widowed in just the last few months and widowed in just the last few months and widowed in just the last few months and I was asked to come and and share the I was asked to come and and share the I was asked to come and and share the word with them. So, we opened to Psalm word with them. So, we opened to Psalm word with them. So, we opened to Psalm 77 and we're processing through this 77 and we're processing through this 77 and we're processing through this psalm of lament together and you come to psalm of lament together and you come to psalm of lament together and you come to the end where Asaf is uh he's made a the end where Asaf is uh he's made a the end where Asaf is uh he's made a diligent search. He's asked the diligent search. He's asked the diligent search. He's asked the questions, the burdened questions of his questions, the burdened questions of his questions, the burdened questions of his soul. Then he's going to remember the soul. Then he's going to remember the soul. Then he's going to remember the mighty deeds of the Lord and he focuses mighty deeds of the Lord and he focuses mighty deeds of the Lord and he focuses on God's uh the Lord's Yahweh's work in

on God's uh the Lord's Yahweh's work in on God's uh the Lord's Yahweh's work in redemption at the Red Sea. redemption at the Red Sea. redemption at the Red Sea. And so, we begin processing, well, how And so, we begin processing, well, how And so, we begin processing, well, how does this apply? How how does this apply does this apply? How how does this apply does this apply? How how does this apply in our context? Well, of course, we've in our context? Well, of course, we've in our context? Well, of course, we've got to talk about the typology developed got to talk about the typology developed got to talk about the typology developed in the Old Testament. I didn't use the in the Old Testament. I didn't use the in the Old Testament. I didn't use the word typology, but you've got the Exodus word typology, but you've got the Exodus word typology, but you've got the Exodus event. Then you have Asaf not simply event. Then you have Asaf not simply event. Then you have Asaf not simply drawing an analogy between oh God can do drawing an analogy between oh God can do drawing an analogy between oh God can do powerful things in my life because he powerful things in my life because he powerful things in my life because he did powerful things there but the did powerful things there but the did powerful things there but the typology beginning to be developed as typology beginning to be developed as typology beginning to be developed as God's people including the prophets uh God's people including the prophets uh God's people including the prophets uh began to understand that the great began to understand that the great began to understand that the great saving work through the Messiah to come saving work through the Messiah to come saving work through the Messiah to come will be a new Exodus event. Uh and so will be a new Exodus event. Uh and so will be a new Exodus event. Uh and so showing how in the Old Testament itself, showing how in the Old Testament itself, showing how in the Old Testament itself, we're developing to your point, Matt, we're developing to your point, Matt, we're developing to your point, Matt, these uh this typology, Exodus typology. these uh this typology, Exodus typology. these uh this typology, Exodus typology. So we're talking about this again, not So we're talking about this again, not So we're talking about this again, not with those technical terms with with with those technical terms with with with those technical terms with with these sisters of ours who are grieving these sisters of ours who are grieving these sisters of ours who are grieving to say just like Asaf is looking back to say just like Asaf is looking back to say just like Asaf is looking back and then in the context of the Old and then in the context of the Old and then in the context of the Old Testament, looking forward. So looking Testament, looking forward. So looking Testament, looking forward. So looking back on what God has done at the back on what God has done at the back on what God has done at the original Exodus event, looking forward original Exodus event, looking forward original Exodus event, looking forward to the new Exodus. So you sisters are to the new Exodus. So you sisters are to the new Exodus. So you sisters are looking back on the greater exodus that looking back on the greater exodus that looking back on the greater exodus that God has accomplished in Christ, God has accomplished in Christ, God has accomplished in Christ, deliverance from sin and death and then deliverance from sin and death and then deliverance from sin and death and then looking forward to that consummation of looking forward to that consummation of looking forward to that consummation of that redemption and the that redemption and the that redemption and the >> so locating them in that context giving >> so locating them in that context giving >> so locating them in that context giving them great hope all of that depends on them great hope all of that depends on them great hope all of that depends on biblical theology.

biblical theology. biblical theology. >> So not one to one but >> So not one to one but >> So not one to one but >> right >> right >> right >> does that suffice? >> does that suffice? >> does that suffice? >> That's pretty good. That's pretty good. >> That's pretty good. That's pretty good. >> That's pretty good. That's pretty good. >> Is a small group I don't know. >> Is a small group I don't know. >> Is a small group I don't know. >> Let me ask you this. So, a lot of there >> Let me ask you this. So, a lot of there >> Let me ask you this. So, a lot of there are some some some tricky texts out are some some some tricky texts out are some some some tricky texts out there. Some some difficult passages. I there. Some some difficult passages. I there. Some some difficult passages. I call them extra spicy texts. [laughter] call them extra spicy texts. [laughter] call them extra spicy texts. [laughter] >> We've just met, but that sounds like >> We've just met, but that sounds like >> We've just met, but that sounds like you. you. you. >> I have various ratings. I have like >> I have various ratings. I have like >> I have various ratings. I have like medium spicy, medium spicy, medium spicy, >> then I have extra spicy, and I have this >> then I have extra spicy, and I have this >> then I have extra spicy, and I have this the whole spectrum. So, there are some a the whole spectrum. So, there are some a the whole spectrum. So, there are some a lot of medium to extra spicy text out lot of medium to extra spicy text out lot of medium to extra spicy text out there. there. there. >> When I have a difficult text, >> When I have a difficult text, >> When I have a difficult text, >> when you have a difficult text, I'm this >> when you have a difficult text, I'm this >> when you have a difficult text, I'm this is a question. When you have a difficult is a question. When you have a difficult is a question. When you have a difficult text, how does the storyline of the text, how does the storyline of the text, how does the storyline of the Bible, redemptive history, play a role Bible, redemptive history, play a role Bible, redemptive history, play a role in interpreting that text, that in interpreting that text, that in interpreting that text, that difficult text? Do you try to situate it difficult text? Do you try to situate it difficult text? Do you try to situate it within it? Do you how do you how do you within it? Do you how do you how do you within it? Do you how do you how do you work with it with a tricky text? Well, I work with it with a tricky text? Well, I work with it with a tricky text? Well, I mean, for example, when I I've done a mean, for example, when I I've done a mean, for example, when I I've done a good bit of my work in Deuteronomy and good bit of my work in Deuteronomy and good bit of my work in Deuteronomy and in Deuteronomic ethics in particular, so in Deuteronomic ethics in particular, so in Deuteronomic ethics in particular, so you've always got to be situating it in you've always got to be situating it in you've always got to be situating it in the ancient neareastern context, but the ancient neareastern context, but the ancient neareastern context, but then also in the redemptive historical then also in the redemptive historical then also in the redemptive historical context. And you know, you all know this context. And you know, you all know this context. And you know, you all know this better than I, but one of the first better than I, but one of the first better than I, but one of the first questions we tend to ask when we read a questions we tend to ask when we read a questions we tend to ask when we read a dicey and extra spicy dicey and extra spicy dicey and extra spicy >> extra spicy spicy ethical text. One of >> extra spicy spicy ethical text. One of >> extra spicy spicy ethical text. One of the first questions we tend to ask is the first questions we tend to ask is the first questions we tend to ask is how does this strike me in my current how does this strike me in my current how does this strike me in my current context with my western egalitarian context with my western egalitarian context with my western egalitarian ethics etc. But of course we we've got ethics etc. But of course we we've got ethics etc. But of course we we've got to ask first how would this have struck to ask first how would this have struck to ask first how would this have struck the original audience and that helps us the original audience and that helps us the original audience and that helps us understand a bit more the the author's

understand a bit more the the author's understand a bit more the the author's aim and what the ethical passage is aim and what the ethical passage is aim and what the ethical passage is getting at and and so of course that getting at and and so of course that getting at and and so of course that presupposed in that is an understanding presupposed in that is an understanding presupposed in that is an understanding of redemptive history and um how at that of redemptive history and um how at that of redemptive history and um how at that point we ain't there yet. Uh, and so point we ain't there yet. Uh, and so point we ain't there yet. Uh, and so yeah, I mean I don't know. What would yeah, I mean I don't know. What would yeah, I mean I don't know. What would you say? you say? you say? >> Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I mean, I would >> Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I mean, I would >> Yeah. Well, uh, yeah, I mean, I would try to see I would look around the text, try to see I would look around the text, try to see I would look around the text, see if I have any anchors where I can see if I have any anchors where I can see if I have any anchors where I can say, well, I know what's going on before say, well, I know what's going on before say, well, I know what's going on before it. I know what's going on after it. it. I know what's going on after it. it. I know what's going on after it. That can help me in the middle. And That can help me in the middle. And That can help me in the middle. And then, do I have any Old Testament then, do I have any Old Testament then, do I have any Old Testament illusions or quotations within that illusions or quotations within that illusions or quotations within that difficult text that I could go back, I difficult text that I could go back, I difficult text that I could go back, I could reflect on? Those are the sorts of could reflect on? Those are the sorts of could reflect on? Those are the sorts of things. Um, yeah, I think just having an things. Um, yeah, I think just having an things. Um, yeah, I think just having an awareness. I you I think both of you awareness. I you I think both of you awareness. I you I think both of you know this there's an awareness that when know this there's an awareness that when know this there's an awareness that when you read the Bible over and over again you read the Bible over and over again you read the Bible over and over again you start to understand it better. So you start to understand it better. So you start to understand it better. So the more you read it the easier it is to the more you read it the easier it is to the more you read it the easier it is to read. With that also comes a sense of read. With that also comes a sense of read. With that also comes a sense of okay this is hard you're reading and okay this is hard you're reading and okay this is hard you're reading and you're like this is this is a tough you're like this is this is a tough you're like this is this is a tough text. And just having that sense of text. And just having that sense of text. And just having that sense of whatever I decide here I'm going to be whatever I decide here I'm going to be whatever I decide here I'm going to be like 60% sure. I'm not going to be 90% like 60% sure. I'm not going to be 90% like 60% sure. I'm not going to be 90% sure 80%. you're going to probably tilt sure 80%. you're going to probably tilt sure 80%. you're going to probably tilt the scales in a direction, but having the scales in a direction, but having the scales in a direction, but having just a just a humility before the text, just a just a humility before the text, just a just a humility before the text, saying this thing could swing this way saying this thing could swing this way saying this thing could swing this way or it could swing that way.

or it could swing that way. or it could swing that way. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> I don't know. >> Yeah. So, that I guess you're maybe >> Yeah. So, that I guess you're maybe >> Yeah. So, that I guess you're maybe speaking more particular to those extra speaking more particular to those extra speaking more particular to those extra spicy texts that are um difficult to spicy texts that are um difficult to spicy texts that are um difficult to nail down in interpretation. And I was nail down in interpretation. And I was nail down in interpretation. And I was thinking more along the lines of thinking more along the lines of thinking more along the lines of difficult to nail down in application. difficult to nail down in application. difficult to nail down in application. >> So, that that makes sense. I'm tracking >> So, that that makes sense. I'm tracking >> So, that that makes sense. I'm tracking I'm tracking what you're saying. I'm tracking what you're saying. I'm tracking what you're saying. >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I think by taking the >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I think by taking the >> Yeah. Yeah. And so I think by taking the big scope of the Bible and trying to big scope of the Bible and trying to big scope of the Bible and trying to understand the small in light of the big understand the small in light of the big understand the small in light of the big is very helpful. I think we can I think is very helpful. I think we can I think is very helpful. I think we can I think you could it doesn't solve all the you could it doesn't solve all the you could it doesn't solve all the problems but it helps. problems but it helps. problems but it helps. >> Would you agree Matt that it's helpful? >> Would you agree Matt that it's helpful? >> Would you agree Matt that it's helpful? Just kidding. I [laughter] Just kidding. I [laughter] Just kidding. I [laughter] >> I think I'm contractually obligated to >> I think I'm contractually obligated to >> I think I'm contractually obligated to agree with that. agree with that. agree with that. >> If you disagree this whole thing is >> If you disagree this whole thing is >> If you disagree this whole thing is going to get going to get going to get no take them out of here. But I mean I no take them out of here. But I mean I no take them out of here. But I mean I do think back back to your point about do think back back to your point about do think back back to your point about uh application. I do think in my own in uh application. I do think in my own in uh application. I do think in my own in my own approach I always come back to my own approach I always come back to my own approach I always come back to every text in the Bible is given to us. every text in the Bible is given to us. every text in the Bible is given to us. I basically kind of start with and if I basically kind of start with and if I basically kind of start with and if you'll allow me to do this as you're an you'll allow me to do this as you're an you'll allow me to do this as you're an Old Testament scholar so if you'll allow Old Testament scholar so if you'll allow Old Testament scholar so if you'll allow me to use the New Testament it'll be me to use the New Testament it'll be me to use the New Testament it'll be okay I hope. But um I second okay I hope. But um I second okay I hope. But um I second >> it eclipses eclipses. No it it it uh >> it eclipses eclipses. No it it it uh >> it eclipses eclipses. No it it it uh what was the word we chose? Okay, what was the word we chose? Okay, what was the word we chose? Okay, surpass. There we go. Anyway, um I take surpass. There we go. Anyway, um I take surpass. There we go. Anyway, um I take seriously when Jesus says, you know, seriously when Jesus says, you know, seriously when Jesus says, you know, what's the greatest commandment? Love what's the greatest commandment? Love what's the greatest commandment? Love the Lord your God with all your heart, the Lord your God with all your heart, the Lord your God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind, all your all your soul, all your mind, all your all your soul, all your mind, all your strength. And the second is like it.

strength. And the second is like it. strength. And the second is like it. Love your neighbor as yourself. On these Love your neighbor as yourself. On these Love your neighbor as yourself. On these the whole law hangs. I take that as the whole law hangs. I take that as the whole law hangs. I take that as every part of the Old Testament is given every part of the Old Testament is given every part of the Old Testament is given to us by God to enable us to better love to us by God to enable us to better love to us by God to enable us to better love God and love our neighbor. Now, some God and love our neighbor. Now, some God and love our neighbor. Now, some texts will focus more on one or the texts will focus more on one or the texts will focus more on one or the other. And so part of that is just other. And so part of that is just other. And so part of that is just thinking through okay so what does this thinking through okay so what does this thinking through okay so what does this reveal about God's character about his reveal about God's character about his reveal about God's character about his ways about his conduct his concerns ways about his conduct his concerns ways about his conduct his concerns those kinds of things as a starting those kinds of things as a starting those kinds of things as a starting point to help us think application okay point to help us think application okay point to help us think application okay well I don't know what a direct well I don't know what a direct well I don't know what a direct application of this see to our application of this see to our application of this see to our contemporary experience this strange uh contemporary experience this strange uh contemporary experience this strange uh requirement from Deuteronomy from the requirement from Deuteronomy from the requirement from Deuteronomy from the Mosaic law how do I think through this Mosaic law how do I think through this Mosaic law how do I think through this but if you're thinking about well this but if you're thinking about well this but if you're thinking about well this tells us something about God's character tells us something about God's character tells us something about God's character this tells us something about God's this tells us something about God's this tells us something about God's concerns about his uh about his ways and concerns about his uh about his ways and concerns about his uh about his ways and how we should love him, how we should how we should love him, how we should how we should love him, how we should love our neighbor. I feel like that's at love our neighbor. I feel like that's at love our neighbor. I feel like that's at least starting us down the right road to least starting us down the right road to least starting us down the right road to think more generally about how it might think more generally about how it might think more generally about how it might apply. Even if the specific application apply. Even if the specific application apply. Even if the specific application is not um a sort of direct onetoone, is not um a sort of direct onetoone, is not um a sort of direct onetoone, well, for the ancient Israelite, it well, for the ancient Israelite, it well, for the ancient Israelite, it meant this. For me as a new covenant meant this. For me as a new covenant meant this. For me as a new covenant Christian, it means something slightly Christian, it means something slightly Christian, it means something slightly different. But those are connected by different. But those are connected by different. But those are connected by the underlying realities of the sameness the underlying realities of the sameness the underlying realities of the sameness of God's character and his moral will of God's character and his moral will of God's character and his moral will and those kinds of things and those kinds of things and those kinds of things >> and his purpose with his covenant >> and his purpose with his covenant >> and his purpose with his covenant people. Yeah. And I as you're talking people. Yeah. And I as you're talking people. Yeah. And I as you're talking I'm thinking about something else. Just I'm thinking about something else. Just I'm thinking about something else. Just kidding. As you're talking [laughter] kidding. As you're talking [laughter] kidding. As you're talking [laughter] I'm I'm also thinking about you know one I'm I'm also thinking about you know one I'm I'm also thinking about you know one of the in my experience with biblical

of the in my experience with biblical of the in my experience with biblical theology, one of the major pitfalls in theology, one of the major pitfalls in theology, one of the major pitfalls in biblical theology. It seems to me that biblical theology. It seems to me that biblical theology. It seems to me that in our context sometimes there's an in our context sometimes there's an in our context sometimes there's an emphasis on a type of Christ centered emphasis on a type of Christ centered emphasis on a type of Christ centered preaching and teaching that focuses like preaching and teaching that focuses like preaching and teaching that focuses like for example in Old Testament ethical for example in Old Testament ethical for example in Old Testament ethical passages focuses merely on the passages focuses merely on the passages focuses merely on the descriptive in application. In other descriptive in application. In other descriptive in application. In other words, um, in Ruth 2, which I was just words, um, in Ruth 2, which I was just words, um, in Ruth 2, which I was just thinking about earlier today, in Ruth 2, thinking about earlier today, in Ruth 2, thinking about earlier today, in Ruth 2, the the story of, uh, Ruth going to find the the story of, uh, Ruth going to find the the story of, uh, Ruth going to find favor, seek favor, she discovers it with favor, seek favor, she discovers it with favor, seek favor, she discovers it with Boaz. Boaz grants her that favor, and Boaz. Boaz grants her that favor, and Boaz. Boaz grants her that favor, and then Ruth uh, brings home the evidence then Ruth uh, brings home the evidence then Ruth uh, brings home the evidence of the favor to Naomi. It seems to me of the favor to Naomi. It seems to me of the favor to Naomi. It seems to me that in our context, some people would that in our context, some people would that in our context, some people would look at Ruth 2 and say that uh the sum look at Ruth 2 and say that uh the sum look at Ruth 2 and say that uh the sum of the application of Ruth 2 is Jesus is of the application of Ruth 2 is Jesus is of the application of Ruth 2 is Jesus is the better Ruth or Jesus is the better the better Ruth or Jesus is the better the better Ruth or Jesus is the better Boaz. And I would say that, you know, Boaz. And I would say that, you know, Boaz. And I would say that, you know, bibl biblical theology does help us bibl biblical theology does help us bibl biblical theology does help us recognize that, okay, Ruth is a type of recognize that, okay, Ruth is a type of recognize that, okay, Ruth is a type of Christ and Boaz is a type of Christ. And Christ and Boaz is a type of Christ. And Christ and Boaz is a type of Christ. And we want to be talking about how this we want to be talking about how this we want to be talking about how this passage points us to Christ and the passage points us to Christ and the passage points us to Christ and the favor he's achieved on our behalf and favor he's achieved on our behalf and favor he's achieved on our behalf and the favor he shows us etc. But also the the favor he shows us etc. But also the the favor he shows us etc. But also the narrator of Ruth is saying narrator of Ruth is saying narrator of Ruth is saying >> be like Ruth and be like Boaz. And I >> be like Ruth and be like Boaz. And I >> be like Ruth and be like Boaz. And I think we can be so afraid of moralism think we can be so afraid of moralism think we can be so afraid of moralism >> that we don't let the Old Testament >> that we don't let the Old Testament >> that we don't let the Old Testament ethical texts have their proper moral

ethical texts have their proper moral ethical texts have their proper moral force. And sometimes it's the biblical force. And sometimes it's the biblical force. And sometimes it's the biblical theology camp and the so-called Christc theology camp and the so-called Christc theology camp and the so-called Christc centered preaching camp that imagines centered preaching camp that imagines centered preaching camp that imagines that we've got to stick in the that we've got to stick in the that we've got to stick in the descriptive descriptive descriptive >> uh rather than the prescriptive because >> uh rather than the prescriptive because >> uh rather than the prescriptive because true Christ centered preaching of Ruth 2 true Christ centered preaching of Ruth 2 true Christ centered preaching of Ruth 2 is going to show how God is not only so is going to show how God is not only so is going to show how God is not only so good as to grant us favor in Christ um good as to grant us favor in Christ um good as to grant us favor in Christ um along the lines of Boaz granting favor along the lines of Boaz granting favor along the lines of Boaz granting favor to Ruth, but he's so gracious to grant to Ruth, but he's so gracious to grant to Ruth, but he's so gracious to grant us the favor in Christ that actually us the favor in Christ that actually us the favor in Christ that actually enables us to become like Christ as our enables us to become like Christ as our enables us to become like Christ as our moral exemplar. moral exemplar. moral exemplar. >> Yes. And even if you look at how the New >> Yes. And even if you look at how the New >> Yes. And even if you look at how the New Testament authors use the Old Testament, Testament authors use the Old Testament, Testament authors use the Old Testament, they don't just they do this obviously. they don't just they do this obviously. they don't just they do this obviously. They don't just They don't just They don't just >> say here's a type of Christ in the Old >> say here's a type of Christ in the Old >> say here's a type of Christ in the Old Testament. First Corinthians 10. Testament. First Corinthians 10. Testament. First Corinthians 10. >> Exactly. That's the same passage I was >> Exactly. That's the same passage I was >> Exactly. That's the same passage I was thinking of where I tell you what. See, thinking of where I tell you what. See, thinking of where I tell you what. See, we're best friends. We talked about we're best friends. We talked about we're best friends. We talked about [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> I didn't think about that. >> I didn't think about that. >> I didn't think about that. >> You didn't think about it. And you're in >> You didn't think about it. And you're in >> You didn't think about it. And you're in the middle. the middle. the middle. >> I know. >> I know. >> I know. >> First Corinthians guy.

>> First Corinthians guy. >> First Corinthians guy. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> I know. I know. >> We put you there [laughter] because you >> We put you there [laughter] because you >> We put you there [laughter] because you are the weakest link. Um it feels an are the weakest link. Um it feels an are the weakest link. Um it feels an awkward thing to acknowledge publicly, awkward thing to acknowledge publicly, awkward thing to acknowledge publicly, but but but >> I'm glad you said it. >> I'm glad you said it. >> I'm glad you said it. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You do look like you're turning red. >> You do look like you're turning red. >> You do look like you're turning red. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But in that text, >> But in that text, >> But in that text, >> suburban >> suburban >> suburban >> in that text, >> in that text, >> in that text, >> somebody cut it. >> somebody cut it. >> somebody cut it. >> Paul like he he's he's drawing the the >> Paul like he he's he's drawing the the >> Paul like he he's he's drawing the the the comparison, the typology, not just the comparison, the typology, not just the comparison, the typology, not just it's between Israel and the church. He's it's between Israel and the church. He's it's between Israel and the church. He's saying, "Don't be like Israel." Like, saying, "Don't be like Israel." Like, saying, "Don't be like Israel." Like, "Learn from Israel's mistakes in the "Learn from Israel's mistakes in the "Learn from Israel's mistakes in the wilderness. Don't be sexually immoral. wilderness. Don't be sexually immoral. wilderness. Don't be sexually immoral. Don't engage in idolatry." So, there's Don't engage in idolatry." So, there's Don't engage in idolatry." So, there's very much a moral thrust. Absolutely. very much a moral thrust. Absolutely. very much a moral thrust. Absolutely. >> To how Paul is reading the Old >> To how Paul is reading the Old >> To how Paul is reading the Old Testament. He's not just saying, "Look Testament. He's not just saying, "Look Testament. He's not just saying, "Look for pictures of Christ and stop there." for pictures of Christ and stop there." for pictures of Christ and stop there." >> And yet, in 1 Corinthians 10, I don't >> And yet, in 1 Corinthians 10, I don't >> And yet, in 1 Corinthians 10, I don't know if you've ever heard of it. It's a know if you've ever heard of it. It's a know if you've ever heard of it. It's a little book of the Bible called First little book of the Bible called First little book of the Bible called First Corinthians. But, um, Corinthians. But, um, Corinthians. But, um, >> I read it one I read it on my on my uh >> I read it one I read it on my on my uh >> I read it one I read it on my on my uh read the Bible year. I got I got I got read the Bible year. I got I got I got read the Bible year. I got I got I got to it a couple years ago. That's pretty to it a couple years ago. That's pretty to it a couple years ago. That's pretty good. good. good. >> That's awesome. Um, but you do have >> That's awesome. Um, but you do have >> That's awesome. Um, but you do have that, to your point, you've got the that, to your point, you've got the that, to your point, you've got the analogy of the, you know, Israelites in analogy of the, you know, Israelites in analogy of the, you know, Israelites in the wilderness and then you've got the the wilderness and then you've got the the wilderness and then you've got the church, but you do have the fulfillment church, but you do have the fulfillment church, but you do have the fulfillment in Christ also. It's, hey, they were in Christ also. It's, hey, they were in Christ also. It's, hey, they were drinking from the rock. It was Christ.

drinking from the rock. It was Christ. drinking from the rock. It was Christ. So, you've got that uh Christ centered So, you've got that uh Christ centered So, you've got that uh Christ centered element as well in a moral uh a element as well in a moral uh a element as well in a moral uh a transparently moral passage. transparently moral passage. transparently moral passage. >> Yeah. So, one of the one of the major >> Yeah. So, one of the one of the major >> Yeah. So, one of the one of the major categories that that Matt was talking categories that that Matt was talking categories that that Matt was talking about, we call it the abiding use, the about, we call it the abiding use, the about, we call it the abiding use, the the the how the moral force in the Old the the how the moral force in the Old the the how the moral force in the Old Testament is pulled into the New. And it Testament is pulled into the New. And it Testament is pulled into the New. And it happens hundreds of times. It's not even happens hundreds of times. It's not even happens hundreds of times. It's not even dozens of times. And it really is dozens of times. And it really is dozens of times. And it really is hundreds and hundreds of occurrences hundreds and hundreds of occurrences hundreds and hundreds of occurrences where you can say, "Oh, Paul's saying, where you can say, "Oh, Paul's saying, where you can say, "Oh, Paul's saying, don't be like them." Or it's, "No, you don't be like them." Or it's, "No, you don't be like them." Or it's, "No, you do need to be like them." And they're do need to be like them." And they're do need to be like them." And they're not it's not on a promise fulfillment not it's not on a promise fulfillment not it's not on a promise fulfillment type spectrum. It's just yeah they did type spectrum. It's just yeah they did type spectrum. It's just yeah they did something good and you need to repeat something good and you need to repeat something good and you need to repeat that in your life. We don't we don't that in your life. We don't we don't that in your life. We don't we don't have does everything doesn't have to be have does everything doesn't have to be have does everything doesn't have to be typological. typological. typological. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Yes. Yes. >> Even though it's a major even though >> Even though it's a major even though >> Even though it's a major even though it's it's it's >> but you've got Matthew 5 with respect to >> but you've got Matthew 5 with respect to >> but you've got Matthew 5 with respect to Christ saying, "Hey, I've not come to Christ saying, "Hey, I've not come to Christ saying, "Hey, I've not come to abolish. I'm coming to fulfill it." So abolish. I'm coming to fulfill it." So abolish. I'm coming to fulfill it." So it seems to me that we do want to be it seems to me that we do want to be it seems to me that we do want to be while yes, not everything has to be uh I while yes, not everything has to be uh I while yes, not everything has to be uh I say typological. Are you judging me?

say typological. Are you judging me? say typological. Are you judging me? Well, maybe you're judging me for other Well, maybe you're judging me for other Well, maybe you're judging me for other things too, but not everything has to be things too, but not everything has to be things too, but not everything has to be typological in that sense. But I think typological in that sense. But I think typological in that sense. But I think even as we make the analogies, we do even as we make the analogies, we do even as we make the analogies, we do have to be thinking through, you know, have to be thinking through, you know, have to be thinking through, you know, I'm not going to just read the Old I'm not going to just read the Old I'm not going to just read the Old Testament irrespective of its whole Testament irrespective of its whole Testament irrespective of its whole Bible context and draw a moral Bible context and draw a moral Bible context and draw a moral principle. I've got to run everything principle. I've got to run everything principle. I've got to run everything through the grid. through the grid. through the grid. >> It's not a bare analogy. >> It's not a bare analogy. >> It's not a bare analogy. >> Yeah. It's it's an analogy within the >> Yeah. It's it's an analogy within the >> Yeah. It's it's an analogy within the sweep. sweep. sweep. >> Yes. The law of Christ. >> Yes. The law of Christ. >> Yes. The law of Christ. >> It's within the sweep. Yes. So, >> It's within the sweep. Yes. So, >> It's within the sweep. Yes. So, [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> we just figured all this out, guys. >> we just figured all this out, guys. >> we just figured all this out, guys. >> Yeah, if we had another six hours, we'd >> Yeah, if we had another six hours, we'd >> Yeah, if we had another six hours, we'd figure out all figure out all figure out all >> Well, actually, we do. This is the final >> Well, actually, we do. This is the final >> Well, actually, we do. This is the final podcast of the night. [laughter] So, I podcast of the night. [laughter] So, I podcast of the night. [laughter] So, I don't know if y'all are up for it, but I don't know if y'all are up for it, but I don't know if y'all are up for it, but I mean, I'm down. mean, I'm down. mean, I'm down. >> It's almost past Ben's bedtime. So, >> It's almost past Ben's bedtime. So, >> It's almost past Ben's bedtime. So, >> Oh, are you saying you're bored with me, >> Oh, are you saying you're bored with me, >> Oh, are you saying you're bored with me, Ben? [laughter] Ben? [laughter] Ben? [laughter] So unfortunate. So unfortunate. So unfortunate. >> Okay. Is it my question? It is. Okay. >> Okay. Is it my question? It is. Okay. >> Okay. Is it my question? It is. Okay. Okay. All right. How can So, you're a Okay. All right. How can So, you're a Okay. All right. How can So, you're a local church person, right? local church person, right? local church person, right? >> True Dad. I hope you are, too, Ben. >> True Dad. I hope you are, too, Ben. >> True Dad. I hope you are, too, Ben. >> But I don't work I don't work at a local >> But I don't work I don't work at a local >> But I don't work I don't work at a local church. I go to a local church. Um, church. I go to a local church. Um, church. I go to a local church. Um, >> you belong [laughter] to a local church.

>> you belong [laughter] to a local church. >> you belong [laughter] to a local church. Sorry. Go ahead, Ben. I'm going to I'm Sorry. Go ahead, Ben. I'm going to I'm Sorry. Go ahead, Ben. I'm going to I'm going to going to going to >> I can't even talk. I can't even ask the >> I can't even talk. I can't even ask the >> I can't even talk. I can't even ask the question. question. question. >> I'm stopping. >> I'm stopping. >> I'm stopping. >> All right. [laughter] >> All right. [laughter] >> All right. [laughter] How do you take how do you take biblical How do you take how do you take biblical How do you take how do you take biblical theology and weave it into your local theology and weave it into your local theology and weave it into your local church ministry? Now, you just gave me church ministry? Now, you just gave me church ministry? Now, you just gave me that. You just gave us that illustration that. You just gave us that illustration that. You just gave us that illustration uh with those widows, but are there any uh with those widows, but are there any uh with those widows, but are there any other examples? Whether is it Sunday other examples? Whether is it Sunday other examples? Whether is it Sunday school? Is it do you produce do you school? Is it do you produce do you school? Is it do you produce do you produce materials? produce materials? produce materials? >> That's wonderful. Uh great question. So >> That's wonderful. Uh great question. So >> That's wonderful. Uh great question. So there are lots of ways multiaceted ways. there are lots of ways multiaceted ways. there are lots of ways multiaceted ways. Yes, I'm part of a Sunday school class. Yes, I'm part of a Sunday school class. Yes, I'm part of a Sunday school class. We're actually going through the first We're actually going through the first We're actually going through the first three books of Calvin's Institutes this three books of Calvin's Institutes this three books of Calvin's Institutes this year which has been really fun. We take year which has been really fun. We take year which has been really fun. We take a portion uh sequentially and then we a portion uh sequentially and then we a portion uh sequentially and then we have a focused scripture. So this last have a focused scripture. So this last have a focused scripture. So this last week we were in um book two where Calvin week we were in um book two where Calvin week we were in um book two where Calvin is laying out the the offices the is laying out the the offices the is laying out the the offices the anointed offices of uh prophet, king and anointed offices of uh prophet, king and anointed offices of uh prophet, king and priest. And so of course you know that priest. And so of course you know that priest. And so of course you know that my focused text there because Calvin my focused text there because Calvin my focused text there because Calvin spends he emphasizes mostly kingship. So spends he emphasizes mostly kingship. So spends he emphasizes mostly kingship. So my uh focus passages there were 2 Samuel my uh focus passages there were 2 Samuel my uh focus passages there were 2 Samuel 7 and Psalm 110 and we're doing biblical 7 and Psalm 110 and we're doing biblical 7 and Psalm 110 and we're doing biblical theology together and and naming it as theology together and and naming it as theology together and and naming it as such. Um, I do train, as I I mentioned, such. Um, I do train, as I I mentioned, such. Um, I do train, as I I mentioned, I I do train uh women who are training I I do train uh women who are training I I do train uh women who are training to be biblical expositors and and we um to be biblical expositors and and we um to be biblical expositors and and we um talk about biblical theology as a talk about biblical theology as a talk about biblical theology as a discipline. So, I do have them read discipline. So, I do have them read discipline. So, I do have them read books in biblical theology in more books in biblical theology in more books in biblical theology in more formal ways.

formal ways. formal ways. >> What do they read? >> What do they read? >> What do they read? >> Well, they on board with um Von Roberts, >> Well, they on board with um Von Roberts, >> Well, they on board with um Von Roberts, God's Big Picture, God's Big Picture, God's Big Picture, >> which by the way, an excellent resource >> which by the way, an excellent resource >> which by the way, an excellent resource of TGC that not everyone knows about is of TGC that not everyone knows about is of TGC that not everyone knows about is TGC courses. Um, and so I'm often TGC courses. Um, and so I'm often TGC courses. Um, and so I'm often sending people to TGC courses, sending people to TGC courses, sending people to TGC courses, including, you know, Van's book on God's including, you know, Van's book on God's including, you know, Van's book on God's Big Picture. TGC courses has that. Um, Big Picture. TGC courses has that. Um, Big Picture. TGC courses has that. Um, and many people make use of it. Um, and many people make use of it. Um, and many people make use of it. Um, Graham Goldsworthy's According to Plan Graham Goldsworthy's According to Plan Graham Goldsworthy's According to Plan is the second book they read. And then I is the second book they read. And then I is the second book they read. And then I actually have them read Alistister Begs actually have them read Alistister Begs actually have them read Alistister Begs and Sinclair Ferguson's name above all and Sinclair Ferguson's name above all and Sinclair Ferguson's name above all names. names. names. >> Um, because it shows the beauty of >> Um, because it shows the beauty of >> Um, because it shows the beauty of biblical theology in the person and work biblical theology in the person and work biblical theology in the person and work of Christ. And you know, my my dad of Christ. And you know, my my dad of Christ. And you know, my my dad always gives the analogy, you know, always gives the analogy, you know, always gives the analogy, you know, what's the the uh most persuasive way to what's the the uh most persuasive way to what's the the uh most persuasive way to teach someone and it's transparently to teach someone and it's transparently to teach someone and it's transparently to enjoy enjoy enjoy >> that thing. So he tells the story about >> that thing. So he tells the story about >> that thing. So he tells the story about the little boy in Georgia who's trying the little boy in Georgia who's trying the little boy in Georgia who's trying to sell peaches on a hot day and ain't to sell peaches on a hot day and ain't to sell peaches on a hot day and ain't nobody buying. And so he gets nobody buying. And so he gets nobody buying. And so he gets frustrated, grabs a peach, goes sit frustrated, grabs a peach, goes sit frustrated, grabs a peach, goes sit under the shade of a tree and he's under the shade of a tree and he's under the shade of a tree and he's eating and as he's eating that peach, he eating and as he's eating that peach, he eating and as he's eating that peach, he just, man, he loses himself. It's like just, man, he loses himself. It's like just, man, he loses himself. It's like you with what won't be names. He loses you with what won't be names. He loses you with what won't be names. He loses himself. He closes his eyes. The juices himself. He closes his eyes. The juices himself. He closes his eyes. The juices of the peach are coming down his face.

of the peach are coming down his face. of the peach are coming down his face. And when he looks up, he's got a mile a And when he looks up, he's got a mile a And when he looks up, he's got a mile a line a mile long because people are line a mile long because people are line a mile long because people are seeing the goodness of the peach and his seeing the goodness of the peach and his seeing the goodness of the peach and his enjoyment. enjoyment. enjoyment. >> And I want the women learning about >> And I want the women learning about >> And I want the women learning about biblical theology to [clears throat] see biblical theology to [clears throat] see biblical theology to [clears throat] see it. it. it. >> Can you see it on their faces when you >> Can you see it on their faces when you >> Can you see it on their faces when you teach? teach? teach? >> Yeah. They close their eyes and they >> Yeah. They close their eyes and they >> Yeah. They close their eyes and they have juices clung. Yeah. [laughter] No, have juices clung. Yeah. [laughter] No, have juices clung. Yeah. [laughter] No, but but I I think, you know, um I don't but but I I think, you know, um I don't but but I I think, you know, um I don't know. Oh, I I don't know if I'm if I'm know. Oh, I I don't know if I'm if I'm know. Oh, I I don't know if I'm if I'm very good at it, but but I certainly very good at it, but but I certainly very good at it, but but I certainly experience when I'm Don't you know you experience when I'm Don't you know you experience when I'm Don't you know you become transfixed when become transfixed when become transfixed when >> you really are seeing the marvelous >> you really are seeing the marvelous >> you really are seeing the marvelous beauty of fulfillment in Christ and beauty of fulfillment in Christ and beauty of fulfillment in Christ and >> somebody has just >> somebody has just >> somebody has just >> opened your eyes to see his splenders. I >> opened your eyes to see his splenders. I >> opened your eyes to see his splenders. I mean, I suspect you all are mean, I suspect you all are mean, I suspect you all are >> uh we may all three of us have different >> uh we may all three of us have different >> uh we may all three of us have different personalities and not be as externally personalities and not be as externally personalities and not be as externally emotive, but I suspect that all three of emotive, but I suspect that all three of emotive, but I suspect that all three of us are deeply moved. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, us are deeply moved. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, us are deeply moved. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, there's there's something about watching there's there's something about watching there's there's something about watching scripture work with itself, watch scripture work with itself, watch scripture work with itself, watch authors authors authors >> make connections that are creative, but >> make connections that are creative, but >> make connections that are creative, but yet really robust and good and clear in yet really robust and good and clear in yet really robust and good and clear in the scriptures in the in the scriptures the scriptures in the in the scriptures the scriptures in the in the scriptures in the text.

in the text. in the text. >> Yeah. And there's some there's something >> Yeah. And there's some there's something >> Yeah. And there's some there's something about discovering that for yourself that about discovering that for yourself that about discovering that for yourself that not reading in a commentary, not reading not reading in a commentary, not reading not reading in a commentary, not reading in a book where you're you're just in a book where you're you're just in a book where you're you're just reading the Bible and the pieces start reading the Bible and the pieces start reading the Bible and the pieces start to fall. It's a bit more eyeball to to fall. It's a bit more eyeball to to fall. It's a bit more eyeball to eyeball. It feels like eyeball. It feels like eyeball. It feels like >> looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to >> looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to >> looking at the Lord Jesus eyeball to eyeball in in some respects where you're eyeball in in some respects where you're eyeball in in some respects where you're just seeing the richness and what we just seeing the richness and what we just seeing the richness and what we might say is the manifold wisdom of God might say is the manifold wisdom of God might say is the manifold wisdom of God as that wisdom is displayed in the as that wisdom is displayed in the as that wisdom is displayed in the person of Christ. person of Christ. person of Christ. >> Yeah. It's almost like I think I think >> Yeah. It's almost like I think I think >> Yeah. It's almost like I think I think of the example of going to say an art of the example of going to say an art of the example of going to say an art museum and the untrained eye mine I can museum and the untrained eye mine I can museum and the untrained eye mine I can look at paintings I can go that's a look at paintings I can go that's a look at paintings I can go that's a pretty painting. But if you have an pretty painting. But if you have an pretty painting. But if you have an expert in art walking you through like expert in art walking you through like expert in art walking you through like look at the brush strokes that were look at the brush strokes that were look at the brush strokes that were used, look at the lighting, look at the used, look at the lighting, look at the used, look at the lighting, look at the perspective, and they start to help you perspective, and they start to help you perspective, and they start to help you see the different elements that go into see the different elements that go into see the different elements that go into what makes that beautiful, you can begin what makes that beautiful, you can begin what makes that beautiful, you can begin to then see it in other paintings and to then see it in other paintings and to then see it in other paintings and your own abilities and appreciation of your own abilities and appreciation of your own abilities and appreciation of art start to grow because you see beyond art start to grow because you see beyond art start to grow because you see beyond just the, well, that's a pretty picture.

just the, well, that's a pretty picture. just the, well, that's a pretty picture. You can see this is why it's beautiful. You can see this is why it's beautiful. You can see this is why it's beautiful. This is how the artist makes it This is how the artist makes it This is how the artist makes it beautiful. And I think even in our roles beautiful. And I think even in our roles beautiful. And I think even in our roles as teaching scripture, if we can walk as teaching scripture, if we can walk as teaching scripture, if we can walk people along with us in the discovery people along with us in the discovery people along with us in the discovery process and say, "Now look at this process and say, "Now look at this process and say, "Now look at this phrase. Now look how that phrase is phrase. Now look how that phrase is phrase. Now look how that phrase is actually borrowed from this other actually borrowed from this other actually borrowed from this other passage of scripture and look at what passage of scripture and look at what passage of scripture and look at what the author is doing and how they're the author is doing and how they're the author is doing and how they're expanding upon it or or how they're expanding upon it or or how they're expanding upon it or or how they're developing it. How they're connecting it developing it. How they're connecting it developing it. How they're connecting it to this other text or this other promise to this other text or this other promise to this other text or this other promise that God has made to develop these that God has made to develop these that God has made to develop these fuller pictures of what's going on in fuller pictures of what's going on in fuller pictures of what's going on in the text. I mean, one of the passages the text. I mean, one of the passages the text. I mean, one of the passages that comes to mind when I think of this that comes to mind when I think of this that comes to mind when I think of this is the transfiguration. There is so much is the transfiguration. There is so much is the transfiguration. There is so much going on in those accounts of the going on in those accounts of the going on in those accounts of the transfiguration. And if you can start to transfiguration. And if you can start to transfiguration. And if you can start to piece together the Old Testament piece together the Old Testament piece together the Old Testament illusions and even just the the illusions and even just the the illusions and even just the the theological realities of what that's theological realities of what that's theological realities of what that's telling us about Jesus and and how the telling us about Jesus and and how the telling us about Jesus and and how the scriptures fit together, you begin to scriptures fit together, you begin to scriptures fit together, you begin to help people discover that along with help people discover that along with help people discover that along with you. You're giving them the tools to you. You're giving them the tools to you. You're giving them the tools to then see those things for themselves in then see those things for themselves in then see those things for themselves in scripture. And I think that starts to scripture. And I think that starts to scripture. And I think that starts to open up people's eyes. So they are more open up people's eyes. So they are more open up people's eyes. So they are more motivated to read the Bible because motivated to read the Bible because motivated to read the Bible because they're seeing things that are they're seeing things that are they're seeing things that are legitimately there that maybe they've legitimately there that maybe they've legitimately there that maybe they've never really been shown how to see never really been shown how to see never really been shown how to see properly before.

properly before. properly before. >> I'm in total agreement with you. I >> I'm in total agreement with you. I >> I'm in total agreement with you. I really like your analogy for lots of really like your analogy for lots of really like your analogy for lots of reasons, but one of them is the the role reasons, but one of them is the the role reasons, but one of them is the the role in the sense of the role of a Bible in the sense of the role of a Bible in the sense of the role of a Bible teacher and and right now I'll speak in teacher and and right now I'll speak in teacher and and right now I'll speak in the context of a local church um to make the context of a local church um to make the context of a local church um to make explicit explicit explicit the interpretive process at points. Um I the interpretive process at points. Um I the interpretive process at points. Um I think is very helpful to your point. think is very helpful to your point. think is very helpful to your point. You're training people and bringing them You're training people and bringing them You're training people and bringing them along. One of the dangers, however, along. One of the dangers, however, along. One of the dangers, however, would be if we spent our time so would be if we spent our time so would be if we spent our time so inundating people with, "Look at all inundating people with, "Look at all inundating people with, "Look at all these connections. Look at all these these connections. Look at all these these connections. Look at all these connections." I think another pitfall in connections." I think another pitfall in connections." I think another pitfall in biblical theology is we can somehow make biblical theology is we can somehow make biblical theology is we can somehow make so many connections either that aren't so many connections either that aren't so many connections either that aren't grounded exoggetically. grounded exoggetically. grounded exoggetically. >> Why are you looking at me? >> Why are you looking at me? >> Why are you looking at me? >> Oh, no. [laughter] Because you you >> Oh, no. [laughter] Because you you >> Oh, no. [laughter] Because you you commented about how important it is to commented about how important it is to commented about how important it is to make them grounded exoggetically. make them grounded exoggetically. make them grounded exoggetically. >> It was accusatory. It was accusatory >> It was accusatory. It was accusatory >> It was accusatory. It was accusatory conscience. And I don't know why, but I conscience. And I don't know why, but I conscience. And I don't know why, but I mean I'm not surprised by it. But back mean I'm not surprised by it. But back mean I'm not surprised by it. But back to the, you know, sometimes we can make to the, you know, sometimes we can make to the, you know, sometimes we can make lots of connections that either aren't lots of connections that either aren't lots of connections that either aren't there or even real connections that are there or even real connections that are there or even real connections that are there, but spend our time commenting on there, but spend our time commenting on there, but spend our time commenting on all these connections. I think it can all these connections. I think it can all these connections. I think it can overwhelm sometimes folks who begin to overwhelm sometimes folks who begin to overwhelm sometimes folks who begin to think it's almost like a form think it's almost like a form think it's almost like a form ofnosticism, like they have a key that ofnosticism, like they have a key that ofnosticism, like they have a key that I'll never get. So I think in digestible I'll never get. So I think in digestible I'll never get. So I think in digestible portions and then I do think back to the portions and then I do think back to the portions and then I do think back to the the peach analogy.

the peach analogy. the peach analogy. if you're the the art curator and you're if you're the the art curator and you're if you're the the art curator and you're pointing out what makes this beautiful, pointing out what makes this beautiful, pointing out what makes this beautiful, etc. I think some of those uh toolsy etc. I think some of those uh toolsy etc. I think some of those uh toolsy comments are helpful, but also just comments are helpful, but also just comments are helpful, but also just delight in the painting and your delight in the painting and your delight in the painting and your transparent delight is uh going actually transparent delight is uh going actually transparent delight is uh going actually going to help some of those tools become going to help some of those tools become going to help some of those tools become more digestible. Um so you're not more digestible. Um so you're not more digestible. Um so you're not overwhelming people, flooding them with overwhelming people, flooding them with overwhelming people, flooding them with all the techniques with your homework. all the techniques with your homework. all the techniques with your homework. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, for sure. >> Yeah, for sure. Ben, we've got time for one more Ben, we've got time for one more Ben, we've got time for one more question if you've got one queued up for question if you've got one queued up for question if you've got one queued up for for Mary here. for Mary here. for Mary here. >> What do you recommend? Now, maybe this >> What do you recommend? Now, maybe this >> What do you recommend? Now, maybe this is the same question just put is the same question just put is the same question just put differently. Let's say somebody is differently. Let's say somebody is differently. Let's say somebody is really excited to get into biblical really excited to get into biblical really excited to get into biblical theology, where do they start? theology, where do they start? theology, where do they start? >> You mentioned Von Roberts. >> You mentioned Von Roberts. >> You mentioned Von Roberts. >> Yep. So, that's >> Yep. So, that's >> Yep. So, that's >> Are they anybody? Is there anybody else? >> Are they anybody? Is there anybody else? >> Are they anybody? Is there anybody else? >> So, if somebody is really into if they >> So, if somebody is really into if they >> So, if somebody is really into if they really want to get into biblical really want to get into biblical really want to get into biblical theology, they're not into it at all. theology, they're not into it at all. theology, they're not into it at all. >> Yeah. They're not into it, but they're >> Yeah. They're not into it, but they're >> Yeah. They're not into it, but they're like, "That sounds amazing. I want like, "That sounds amazing. I want like, "That sounds amazing. I want more." more." more." >> Yeah. talk to you after your one of your >> Yeah. talk to you after your one of your >> Yeah. talk to you after your one of your your teaching sessions and they say, "I your teaching sessions and they say, "I your teaching sessions and they say, "I want to learn to read the Bible the way want to learn to read the Bible the way want to learn to read the Bible the way you do. How do I start with maybe some you do. How do I start with maybe some you do. How do I start with maybe some resources that help me think in the kind resources that help me think in the kind resources that help me think in the kind of categories that you think in?"

of categories that you think in?" of categories that you think in?" >> Okay. Uh well, this is going to disclose >> Okay. Uh well, this is going to disclose >> Okay. Uh well, this is going to disclose my bias, but my the first thing I'm my bias, but my the first thing I'm my bias, but my the first thing I'm going to do even before mentioning going to do even before mentioning going to do even before mentioning Vaughn or I'm going to mention some um Vaughn or I'm going to mention some um Vaughn or I'm going to mention some um pastors who preach in a robustly pastors who preach in a robustly pastors who preach in a robustly biblical theological I'm going to biblical theological I'm going to biblical theological I'm going to mention well I mean my my dad I grew up mention well I mean my my dad I grew up mention well I mean my my dad I grew up under my dad and and he's uh the most under my dad and and he's uh the most under my dad and and he's uh the most influential biblical theologian in my influential biblical theologian in my influential biblical theologian in my life. My dad and my mom but I'll mention life. My dad and my mom but I'll mention life. My dad and my mom but I'll mention Sinclair Ferguson. I'll mention Don Sinclair Ferguson. I'll mention Don Sinclair Ferguson. I'll mention Don Carson who comes at it with a different Carson who comes at it with a different Carson who comes at it with a different personality but so robust. So I want to personality but so robust. So I want to personality but so robust. So I want to set before them these people who are set before them these people who are set before them these people who are eating that peach um particularly in the eating that peach um particularly in the eating that peach um particularly in the context of public worship. So that's context of public worship. So that's context of public worship. So that's actually going to be my starting point. actually going to be my starting point. actually going to be my starting point. I'm going to mention some names. I I I'm going to mention some names. I I I'm going to mention some names. I I oftent times I'll take somebody's pen oftent times I'll take somebody's pen oftent times I'll take somebody's pen and I'll write it down. Um then I'll and I'll write it down. Um then I'll and I'll write it down. Um then I'll mention some of these books to uh build mention some of these books to uh build mention some of these books to uh build in some of the the more technical stuff. in some of the the more technical stuff. in some of the the more technical stuff. And then I often um you know we I also And then I often um you know we I also And then I often um you know we I also hold once a year workshops in our local hold once a year workshops in our local hold once a year workshops in our local church for women who want to have kind church for women who want to have kind church for women who want to have kind of a 2.0. So we had a workshop on the um of a 2.0. So we had a workshop on the um of a 2.0. So we had a workshop on the um New Testament use of the old um last New Testament use of the old um last New Testament use of the old um last year uh every year we have a different year uh every year we have a different year uh every year we have a different workshop. It's on revelation coming up.

workshop. It's on revelation coming up. workshop. It's on revelation coming up. Um Um Um >> extra spicy >> extra spicy >> extra spicy >> extra spicy and I will often mention in >> extra spicy and I will often mention in >> extra spicy and I will often mention in context like that Dr. Carson's and Dr. context like that Dr. Carson's and Dr. context like that Dr. Carson's and Dr. Be's uh you know commentary on the and Be's uh you know commentary on the and Be's uh you know commentary on the and the handbook that Dr. Beal put out is is the handbook that Dr. Beal put out is is the handbook that Dr. Beal put out is is so helpful so helpful so helpful >> and then I also mentioned some of the >> and then I also mentioned some of the >> and then I also mentioned some of the various series that have come out various series that have come out various series that have come out recently u sort of showing what it's recently u sort of showing what it's recently u sort of showing what it's like. like. like. >> What would y'all add if somebody comes >> What would y'all add if somebody comes >> What would y'all add if somebody comes up to you and says, "I want to get into up to you and says, "I want to get into up to you and says, "I want to get into biblical theology. I've never done it biblical theology. I've never done it biblical theology. I've never done it before. Where do I start?" What would before. Where do I start?" What would before. Where do I start?" What would you say you say you say besides, "Hey, listen to my podcast." besides, "Hey, listen to my podcast." besides, "Hey, listen to my podcast." >> Well, exactly. Uh I mean I I I would >> Well, exactly. Uh I mean I I I would >> Well, exactly. Uh I mean I I I would start a lot of the places that that start a lot of the places that that start a lot of the places that that you've started with. Um, I think um, in you've started with. Um, I think um, in you've started with. Um, I think um, in terms of reading, I would probably point terms of reading, I would probably point terms of reading, I would probably point them to maybe just select there's a them to maybe just select there's a them to maybe just select there's a couple of series. One of them is a couple of series. One of them is a couple of series. One of them is a series that Ben edits, the uh, essential series that Ben edits, the uh, essential series that Ben edits, the uh, essential studies in biblical theology has some studies in biblical theology has some studies in biblical theology has some good readable uh, biblical theology good readable uh, biblical theology good readable uh, biblical theology that's on different themes in scripture that's on different themes in scripture that's on different themes in scripture >> and wets their appetite. >> and wets their appetite. >> and wets their appetite. >> Exactly. um the crossway one.

>> Exactly. um the crossway one. >> Exactly. um the crossway one. >> There's really good entries in the >> There's really good entries in the >> There's really good entries in the crossway short studies in biblical crossway short studies in biblical crossway short studies in biblical theology um that just give a good taste theology um that just give a good taste theology um that just give a good taste of tracing a theme or or or showing some of tracing a theme or or or showing some of tracing a theme or or or showing some of those realities. Those would be some of those realities. Those would be some of those realities. Those would be some good starting points. Uh and then maybe good starting points. Uh and then maybe good starting points. Uh and then maybe as a sort of 2.0 move, they could as a sort of 2.0 move, they could as a sort of 2.0 move, they could eventually maybe move to some of the uh eventually maybe move to some of the uh eventually maybe move to some of the uh volumes in the new studies in biblical volumes in the new studies in biblical volumes in the new studies in biblical theology if they're a little bit more theology if they're a little bit more theology if they're a little bit more >> Matt wrote Matt wrote Matt, you Matt, >> Matt wrote Matt wrote Matt, you Matt, >> Matt wrote Matt wrote Matt, you Matt, you've written in both series. you've written in both series. you've written in both series. >> Look at you. You're a baller, man. I >> Look at you. You're a baller, man. I >> Look at you. You're a baller, man. I try. I try. I try. try. I try. I try. try. I try. I try. >> Yeah. So I give our, for example, we'll >> Yeah. So I give our, for example, we'll >> Yeah. So I give our, for example, we'll be teaching Exodus this coming year with be teaching Exodus this coming year with be teaching Exodus this coming year with our among our women in ministry and our our among our women in ministry and our our among our women in ministry and our young expositors will be using that a young expositors will be using that a young expositors will be using that a book in that series alongside the uh is book in that series alongside the uh is book in that series alongside the uh is it um it um it um Exodus one making himself known I can't Exodus one making himself known I can't Exodus one making himself known I can't remember that the God who makes himself remember that the God who makes himself remember that the God who makes himself known. Yes. Yes. known. Yes. Yes. known. Yes. Yes. >> So they'll be reading that as along with >> So they'll be reading that as along with >> So they'll be reading that as along with some commentaries I've given them etc. some commentaries I've given them etc. some commentaries I've given them etc. just to be growing in in biblical just to be growing in in biblical just to be growing in in biblical theology. Yeah, absolutely. theology. Yeah, absolutely. theology. Yeah, absolutely. >> Those are good suggestions. >> Those are good suggestions. >> Those are good suggestions. >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> I'll read your books more.

>> I'll read your books more. >> I'll read your books more. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] >> We'll have to hook you up with some >> We'll have to hook you up with some >> We'll have to hook you up with some copies, copies, copies, >> please. There you go. >> please. There you go. >> please. There you go. >> I mean, come on. Show me some to you for >> I mean, come on. Show me some to you for >> I mean, come on. Show me some to you for a decent deal. a decent deal. a decent deal. >> What about some barbecue that I didn't >> What about some barbecue that I didn't >> What about some barbecue that I didn't have to make, but I can just pass I can have to make, but I can just pass I can have to make, but I can just pass I can mail it to you. mail it to you. mail it to you. >> Okay, now I'll barter. Now we're >> Okay, now I'll barter. Now we're >> Okay, now I'll barter. Now we're talking. talking. talking. >> Barbecue for books. That's a good, >> Barbecue for books. That's a good, >> Barbecue for books. That's a good, >> guys. And nothing cost me anything. I'm >> guys. And nothing cost me anything. I'm >> guys. And nothing cost me anything. I'm very happy about this exchange. very happy about this exchange. very happy about this exchange. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> That's right. That's right. So for more >> That's right. That's right. So for more >> That's right. That's right. So for more information on Mary's work, you can information on Mary's work, you can information on Mary's work, you can check out her articles on the Gospel check out her articles on the Gospel check out her articles on the Gospel Coal Coalition website. Uh Mary, thank Coal Coalition website. Uh Mary, thank Coal Coalition website. Uh Mary, thank you for being on the podcast today. you for being on the podcast today. you for being on the podcast today. >> Enjoyed it very much and we appreciate >> Enjoyed it very much and we appreciate >> Enjoyed it very much and we appreciate you joining us on the podcast as well. you joining us on the podcast as well. you joining us on the podcast as well. We encourage you to check out other We encourage you to check out other We encourage you to check out other resources available on the Carson Center resources available on the Carson Center resources available on the Carson Center for Theological Renewal. And if you're for Theological Renewal. And if you're for Theological Renewal. And if you're new to the podcast, we invite you to new to the podcast, we invite you to new to the podcast, we invite you to check out some of the other episodes check out some of the other episodes check out some of the other episodes we've recorded. Thanks for listening to we've recorded. Thanks for listening to we've recorded. Thanks for listening to the biblical Theology briefing.