3 Threats to Secularism in the West

The church has become a victim of its The church has become a victim of its own success. When you already see the own success. When you already see the own success. When you already see the safe, clean streets and people obeying safe, clean streets and people obeying safe, clean streets and people obeying from within and the government taking from within and the government taking from within and the government taking care of every problem. The natural care of every problem. The natural care of every problem. The natural question is what's the purpose of the question is what's the purpose of the question is what's the purpose of the church? Who needs a sermon to tell you church? Who needs a sermon to tell you church? Who needs a sermon to tell you what you already know what to do to be a what you already know what to do to be a what you already know what to do to be a good citizen? You'll be sitting inside good citizen? You'll be sitting inside good citizen? You'll be sitting inside hearing a sermon on suffering from hearing a sermon on suffering from hearing a sermon on suffering from Romans 8. While outside the crowds are Romans 8. While outside the crowds are Romans 8. While outside the crowds are thinking, "Hey, good news is that thinking, "Hey, good news is that thinking, "Hey, good news is that anything goes wrong with me, the anything goes wrong with me, the anything goes wrong with me, the government's [music] going to take care government's [music] going to take care government's [music] going to take care of me." He's run into this basic problem of me." He's run into this basic problem of me." He's run into this basic problem of unreality with Christianity in the of unreality with Christianity in the of unreality with Christianity in the secular west that Christianity doesn't secular west that Christianity doesn't secular west that Christianity doesn't feel necessary. Last month on my last day [music] in Last month on my last day [music] in Copenhagen, Denmark, I walked in the Copenhagen, Denmark, I walked in the Copenhagen, Denmark, I walked in the early morning through quiet streets, early morning through quiet streets, early morning through quiet streets, past [music] closed shops. I saw that past [music] closed shops. I saw that past [music] closed shops. I saw that the Danes do not get up very early. I the Danes do not get up very early. I the Danes do not get up very early. I was looking for the the church of our was looking for the the church of our was looking for the the church of our lady. It's a neocclassical cathedral of lady. It's a neocclassical cathedral of lady. It's a neocclassical cathedral of the Lutheran church in Denmark. Now, the Lutheran church in Denmark. Now, the Lutheran church in Denmark. Now, unlike so many other European cathedrals unlike so many other European cathedrals unlike so many other European cathedrals you may have visited, you may have heard you may have visited, you may have heard you may have visited, you may have heard about, seen on TV, this church radiates about, seen on TV, this church radiates about, seen on TV, this church radiates light when you step in from the narrow, light when you step in from the narrow, light when you step in from the narrow, darkened streets. Uh you're you're darkened streets. Uh you're you're darkened streets. Uh you're you're surrounded by statues of the apostles surrounded by statues of the apostles surrounded by statues of the apostles and you stride down the center aisle and you stride down the center aisle and you stride down the center aisle toward Jesus behind the altar with his

toward Jesus behind the altar with his toward Jesus behind the altar with his arms stretched down in invitation arms stretched down in invitation arms stretched down in invitation and the lanterns beckoned to you post and the lanterns beckoned to you post and the lanterns beckoned to you post teneibris slucks after darkness the teneibris slucks after darkness the teneibris slucks after darkness the light of the word shone again with the light of the word shone again with the light of the word shone again with the Protestant Reformation. Protestant Reformation. Protestant Reformation. Now, not long after opening, Now, not long after opening, Now, not long after opening, uh, I entered the cathedral with a uh, I entered the cathedral with a uh, I entered the cathedral with a second visitor. Uh, toward the front, as second visitor. Uh, toward the front, as second visitor. Uh, toward the front, as this visitor and I walked forward, there this visitor and I walked forward, there this visitor and I walked forward, there was a third visitor. And if you tour was a third visitor. And if you tour was a third visitor. And if you tour enough European churches, you you come enough European churches, you you come enough European churches, you you come to expect a smattering of older women at to expect a smattering of older women at to expect a smattering of older women at prayer. prayer. prayer. But that was not the case this time. The But that was not the case this time. The But that was not the case this time. The two other visitors with me were young two other visitors with me were young two other visitors with me were young men. They were native Danes and they men. They were native Danes and they men. They were native Danes and they were reading and praying. were reading and praying. were reading and praying. Now, I visited the morning after the Now, I visited the morning after the Now, I visited the morning after the Charlie Kirk memorial service back home Charlie Kirk memorial service back home Charlie Kirk memorial service back home in the United States. And all week in the United States. And all week in the United States. And all week leaders and guests at our TGC Nordon leaders and guests at our TGC Nordon leaders and guests at our TGC Nordon conference wanted to ask me all about conference wanted to ask me all about conference wanted to ask me all about Kirk. Everything was just fascinating to Kirk. Everything was just fascinating to Kirk. Everything was just fascinating to them. The stadium size, worship service, them. The stadium size, worship service, them. The stadium size, worship service, complete with gospel preaching from a complete with gospel preaching from a complete with gospel preaching from a highranking politician. All of this highranking politician. All of this highranking politician. All of this would be unthinkable in Scandinavia, one would be unthinkable in Scandinavia, one would be unthinkable in Scandinavia, one of the most secular regions of the of the most secular regions of the of the most secular regions of the world. But church leaders from Norway world. But church leaders from Norway world. But church leaders from Norway and Sweden and Denmark and Finland and and Sweden and Denmark and Finland and and Sweden and Denmark and Finland and the Pharaoh Islands, they told me that the Pharaoh Islands, they told me that the Pharaoh Islands, they told me that they've been seeing a little of what I they've been seeing a little of what I they've been seeing a little of what I had seen myself in the Church of Our had seen myself in the Church of Our had seen myself in the Church of Our Lady, which was increased receptiveness

Lady, which was increased receptiveness Lady, which was increased receptiveness to the gospel from young men. to the gospel from young men. to the gospel from young men. Now, as I walked back to my hotel and Now, as I walked back to my hotel and Now, as I walked back to my hotel and prepared to catch my flight, I pondered prepared to catch my flight, I pondered prepared to catch my flight, I pondered what it means to live in our what it means to live in our what it means to live in our postchristendom postchristendom postchristendom world. That's a topic we often explore world. That's a topic we often explore world. That's a topic we often explore here on Gospelbound. It's the subject of here on Gospelbound. It's the subject of here on Gospelbound. It's the subject of our new book, The Gospel After our new book, The Gospel After our new book, The Gospel After Christendom, from the Keller Center for Christendom, from the Keller Center for Christendom, from the Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. Cultural Apologetics. And I thought in light of these And I thought in light of these And I thought in light of these questions, in light of what people are questions, in light of what people are questions, in light of what people are seeing, I thought, well, maybe we're not seeing, I thought, well, maybe we're not seeing, I thought, well, maybe we're not as secular as I thought, at least in the as secular as I thought, at least in the as secular as I thought, at least in the United States, maybe the fusion of United States, maybe the fusion of United States, maybe the fusion of Christian witness and political power Christian witness and political power Christian witness and political power remains stronger, as it was in remains stronger, as it was in remains stronger, as it was in Christendom, then declining church Christendom, then declining church Christendom, then declining church attendance would suggest suggest. attendance would suggest suggest. attendance would suggest suggest. Well, I was mulling these thoughts on an Well, I was mulling these thoughts on an Well, I was mulling these thoughts on an enjoyably cool morning just out outside enjoyably cool morning just out outside enjoyably cool morning just out outside the cathedral near the University of the cathedral near the University of the cathedral near the University of Copenhagen. Copenhagen. Copenhagen. And as I'm walking down this street, I And as I'm walking down this street, I And as I'm walking down this street, I notice a pride flag. And then I notice notice a pride flag. And then I notice notice a pride flag. And then I notice another and then another. And I realized another and then another. And I realized another and then another. And I realized I'd stumbled into a gay bar district on I'd stumbled into a gay bar district on I'd stumbled into a gay bar district on my way back past the train station to my my way back past the train station to my my way back past the train station to my hotel, which shared a wall with a strip hotel, which shared a wall with a strip hotel, which shared a wall with a strip club.

club. club. Yeah, I had begun to understand a little Yeah, I had begun to understand a little Yeah, I had begun to understand a little bit more of our predicament in the bit more of our predicament in the bit more of our predicament in the postch Christristendom west. postch Christristendom west. postch Christristendom west. You could have one group that shows You could have one group that shows You could have one group that shows encouraging interest in the gospel while encouraging interest in the gospel while encouraging interest in the gospel while another runs far away from God. One another runs far away from God. One another runs far away from God. One country can experience revival while country can experience revival while country can experience revival while churches sit empty in another. churches sit empty in another. churches sit empty in another. Social media could show one group a Social media could show one group a Social media could show one group a martyr while another group sees nothing martyr while another group sees nothing martyr while another group sees nothing but red. but red. but red. Well, Charles Taylor famously began his Well, Charles Taylor famously began his Well, Charles Taylor famously began his definitive account of secularism by definitive account of secularism by definitive account of secularism by describing the loss of religious describing the loss of religious describing the loss of religious assumptions between the year 1500 and assumptions between the year 1500 and assumptions between the year 1500 and 2000. 2000. 2000. Back around 1500 in Martin Luther's day, Back around 1500 in Martin Luther's day, Back around 1500 in Martin Luther's day, you had to opt out of religion. you had to opt out of religion. you had to opt out of religion. In our day, the reverse is true. You In our day, the reverse is true. You In our day, the reverse is true. You must opt in. must opt in. must opt in. Faith is contested by the pluralism of Faith is contested by the pluralism of Faith is contested by the pluralism of our eyes. our eyes. our eyes. Everyone knows you don't need to be a Everyone knows you don't need to be a Everyone knows you don't need to be a Christian. That Christians don't hold a Christian. That Christians don't hold a Christian. That Christians don't hold a monopoly of power. And that is our monopoly of power. And that is our monopoly of power. And that is our post-Christendom world where belief post-Christendom world where belief post-Christendom world where belief sprouts on one street and decadence sprouts on one street and decadence sprouts on one street and decadence rules on another.

rules on another. rules on another. Now, earlier this year, a friend asked Now, earlier this year, a friend asked Now, earlier this year, a friend asked me to explain the differences between me to explain the differences between me to explain the differences between United States and Europe, especially United States and Europe, especially United States and Europe, especially when it comes to religion and when it comes to religion and when it comes to religion and secularism. secularism. secularism. Well, I got to spend a number of Well, I got to spend a number of Well, I got to spend a number of jet-lagged, sleepless nights in my jet-lagged, sleepless nights in my jet-lagged, sleepless nights in my Copenhagen hotel thinking about this Copenhagen hotel thinking about this Copenhagen hotel thinking about this question. question. question. The social scientist Ryan Burge, he is The social scientist Ryan Burge, he is The social scientist Ryan Burge, he is very helpful with with graphs that very helpful with with graphs that very helpful with with graphs that illustrate these very dynamics. And one illustrate these very dynamics. And one illustrate these very dynamics. And one of his graphs shows that the richer the of his graphs shows that the richer the of his graphs shows that the richer the country, the lower the religiosity. This country, the lower the religiosity. This country, the lower the religiosity. This is nothing more than the standard is nothing more than the standard is nothing more than the standard secularization thesis we've been hearing secularization thesis we've been hearing secularization thesis we've been hearing about uh for decades. You make money and about uh for decades. You make money and about uh for decades. You make money and you lose God. Now, Norway is the richest you lose God. Now, Norway is the richest you lose God. Now, Norway is the richest nation in the world, at least according nation in the world, at least according nation in the world, at least according to GDP per capita, and that's just ahead to GDP per capita, and that's just ahead to GDP per capita, and that's just ahead of the United States. of the United States. of the United States. And less than 20% of Norwegians, very And less than 20% of Norwegians, very And less than 20% of Norwegians, very low number, say religion is very low number, say religion is very low number, say religion is very important. Believe it or not though, important. Believe it or not though, important. Believe it or not though, Denmark, Sweden, and Finland are even Denmark, Sweden, and Finland are even Denmark, Sweden, and Finland are even lower.

lower. lower. But there's always been one major But there's always been one major But there's always been one major problem with this secularization thesis, problem with this secularization thesis, problem with this secularization thesis, one big outlier. one big outlier. one big outlier. And that big outlier is the United And that big outlier is the United And that big outlier is the United States, where 52% States, where 52% States, where 52% of Americans say that religion is of Americans say that religion is of Americans say that religion is important. important. important. Now, this is a really interesting chart Now, this is a really interesting chart Now, this is a really interesting chart and we'll be sure to share it uh on our and we'll be sure to share it uh on our and we'll be sure to share it uh on our website uh where you get the notes for website uh where you get the notes for website uh where you get the notes for this show, but this chart is it's not my this show, but this chart is it's not my this show, but this chart is it's not my favorite from Ryan Burge. favorite from Ryan Burge. favorite from Ryan Burge. The United States, of course, is is very The United States, of course, is is very The United States, of course, is is very big. It's very diverse. But what's so big. It's very diverse. But what's so big. It's very diverse. But what's so interesting is so is Europe. interesting is so is Europe. interesting is so is Europe. Some European countries actually look a Some European countries actually look a Some European countries actually look a lot more like the United States when it lot more like the United States when it lot more like the United States when it comes to religion. And there are some comes to religion. And there are some comes to religion. And there are some states that look a lot more like states that look a lot more like states that look a lot more like European countries. European countries. European countries. So if we're really going to get to the So if we're really going to get to the So if we're really going to get to the bottom of the differences between bottom of the differences between bottom of the differences between religiosity and secularism, the United religiosity and secularism, the United religiosity and secularism, the United States and Europe, and really get to the States and Europe, and really get to the States and Europe, and really get to the bottom of what do we do about this, we bottom of what do we do about this, we bottom of what do we do about this, we we need to look a lot deeper. So let's we need to look a lot deeper. So let's we need to look a lot deeper. So let's just spend a little bit more time here just spend a little bit more time here just spend a little bit more time here looking into the actual data. There's looking into the actual data. There's looking into the actual data. There's another chart from Burge shows weekly another chart from Burge shows weekly another chart from Burge shows weekly attendance in the United States and attendance in the United States and attendance in the United States and Europe and it puts them all together and Europe and it puts them all together and Europe and it puts them all together and overall 25% of the US population attends overall 25% of the US population attends overall 25% of the US population attends a religious service weekly. Now much a religious service weekly. Now much a religious service weekly. Now much bigger than Europe. That number is only bigger than Europe. That number is only bigger than Europe. That number is only 14% in Europe. Now when you look at all

14% in Europe. Now when you look at all 14% in Europe. Now when you look at all the European countries and US states put the European countries and US states put the European countries and US states put together again you can see this graph on together again you can see this graph on together again you can see this graph on our site for Gospel Bound. It's no our site for Gospel Bound. It's no our site for Gospel Bound. It's no surprise to see that Mormon Utah and surprise to see that Mormon Utah and surprise to see that Mormon Utah and Lutheran North Dakota are at the very Lutheran North Dakota are at the very Lutheran North Dakota are at the very top of the list. But number three and top of the list. But number three and top of the list. But number three and number five actually could come as a number five actually could come as a number five actually could come as a shock for a number of people. They are shock for a number of people. They are shock for a number of people. They are two postcommunist Eastern block states, two postcommunist Eastern block states, two postcommunist Eastern block states, Poland and Slovakia, European countries. Poland and Slovakia, European countries. Poland and Slovakia, European countries. Now, we're going to come back a little Now, we're going to come back a little Now, we're going to come back a little bit later to discuss the significance of bit later to discuss the significance of bit later to discuss the significance of these two countries. But after you get these two countries. But after you get these two countries. But after you get um you get Utah, you get North Dakota, um you get Utah, you get North Dakota, um you get Utah, you get North Dakota, you get Poland and Slovakia, you see a you get Poland and Slovakia, you see a you get Poland and Slovakia, you see a host of states that follow, including host of states that follow, including host of states that follow, including Alabama, South Dakota, until you once Alabama, South Dakota, until you once Alabama, South Dakota, until you once again get to a few European countries, again get to a few European countries, again get to a few European countries, notably Ireland, Ireland, and Italy, and notably Ireland, Ireland, and Italy, and notably Ireland, Ireland, and Italy, and they're around the national US average they're around the national US average they're around the national US average of 26% of 26% of 26% weekly attendance. weekly attendance. weekly attendance. Most of Europe though, it clusters Most of Europe though, it clusters Most of Europe though, it clusters around the bottom of the list from 13% around the bottom of the list from 13% around the bottom of the list from 13% weekly church attendance in Spain, 12% weekly church attendance in Spain, 12% weekly church attendance in Spain, 12% in the UK, all the way down to 3% in in the UK, all the way down to 3% in in the UK, all the way down to 3% in Iceland.

Iceland. Iceland. You'll see on this list that several US You'll see on this list that several US You'll see on this list that several US states are just as secular as many states are just as secular as many states are just as secular as many European countries. Only 14% in European countries. Only 14% in European countries. Only 14% in Massachusetts attend church weekly. It's Massachusetts attend church weekly. It's Massachusetts attend church weekly. It's 12% in Maine, which is the most secular 12% in Maine, which is the most secular 12% in Maine, which is the most secular state. Vermont is 18%, it's the same as state. Vermont is 18%, it's the same as state. Vermont is 18%, it's the same as Connecticut. New Hampshire is 17%. Connecticut. New Hampshire is 17%. Connecticut. New Hampshire is 17%. It's not, on the other hand, that all of It's not, on the other hand, that all of It's not, on the other hand, that all of Europe is secular. I mentioned Poland Europe is secular. I mentioned Poland Europe is secular. I mentioned Poland and Slovakia. They're really equivalent and Slovakia. They're really equivalent and Slovakia. They're really equivalent to the American Bible belt, and it's not to the American Bible belt, and it's not to the American Bible belt, and it's not that the United States is religious. New that the United States is religious. New that the United States is religious. New England belongs England belongs England belongs in Scandinavia in terms of these in Scandinavia in terms of these in Scandinavia in terms of these comparisons. And it's no wonder then you comparisons. And it's no wonder then you comparisons. And it's no wonder then you can see why so many Americans from the can see why so many Americans from the can see why so many Americans from the south struggle in ministry when they south struggle in ministry when they south struggle in ministry when they move to New England. They might as well move to New England. They might as well move to New England. They might as well be in Norway. be in Norway. be in Norway. Visiting Copenhagen for my third time, I Visiting Copenhagen for my third time, I Visiting Copenhagen for my third time, I got a much better feel, I think, for the got a much better feel, I think, for the got a much better feel, I think, for the challenges of secularism because I got challenges of secularism because I got challenges of secularism because I got to talk to so many different pastors and to talk to so many different pastors and to talk to so many different pastors and missionaries. Some of them native missionaries. Some of them native missionaries. Some of them native Nordics, others from the UK, and many of Nordics, others from the UK, and many of Nordics, others from the UK, and many of them from the United States. And I tried them from the United States. And I tried them from the United States. And I tried to just listen, watch, observe, to just listen, watch, observe, to just listen, watch, observe, take notes, pray.

take notes, pray. take notes, pray. It was just a fascinating experience. It was just a fascinating experience. It was just a fascinating experience. The first night of TJC Nordon, I was The first night of TJC Nordon, I was The first night of TJC Nordon, I was teaching from the book of Jeremiah. But teaching from the book of Jeremiah. But teaching from the book of Jeremiah. But at the same time that I was preaching, at the same time that I was preaching, at the same time that I was preaching, FC Copenhagen was playing a Champions FC Copenhagen was playing a Champions FC Copenhagen was playing a Champions League match against Leverkusen from League match against Leverkusen from League match against Leverkusen from Germany. and I could have walked to the Germany. and I could have walked to the Germany. and I could have walked to the stadium from the church in less than 40 stadium from the church in less than 40 stadium from the church in less than 40 minutes. Copenhagen is a is a wonderful minutes. Copenhagen is a is a wonderful minutes. Copenhagen is a is a wonderful city. It's not particularly large. city. It's not particularly large. city. It's not particularly large. Needless to say, as I'm preaching from Needless to say, as I'm preaching from Needless to say, as I'm preaching from the book of Jeremiah against this the book of Jeremiah against this the book of Jeremiah against this Champions League match, my preaching was Champions League match, my preaching was Champions League match, my preaching was no match for the draw of football. no match for the draw of football. no match for the draw of football. Really, it's no different from the Really, it's no different from the Really, it's no different from the United States where sport has increased United States where sport has increased United States where sport has increased as religion has decreased as the object as religion has decreased as the object as religion has decreased as the object of devotion, time, attention, and money. of devotion, time, attention, and money. of devotion, time, attention, and money. Uh that was just one way though that I Uh that was just one way though that I Uh that was just one way though that I got a feel for the nature of of got a feel for the nature of of got a feel for the nature of of secularism in these countries. On secularism in these countries. On secularism in these countries. On Saturday morning, I wandered the clean, Saturday morning, I wandered the clean, Saturday morning, I wandered the clean, safe streets as crowds enjoyed coffee safe streets as crowds enjoyed coffee safe streets as crowds enjoyed coffee and pastries and unhurried sidewalk and pastries and unhurried sidewalk and pastries and unhurried sidewalk cafes. Everything that Americans dream cafes. Everything that Americans dream cafes. Everything that Americans dream of when they watch Rick Steve's shows of when they watch Rick Steve's shows of when they watch Rick Steve's shows about these cities. You see laughing about these cities. You see laughing about these cities. You see laughing children dancing in the fountains of the children dancing in the fountains of the children dancing in the fountains of the town squares. And I arrived at church town squares. And I arrived at church town squares. And I arrived at church just in time to hear my friend Christian just in time to hear my friend Christian just in time to hear my friend Christian Roth, who's planting in a church in Roth, who's planting in a church in Roth, who's planting in a church in Copenhagen and leading TGC Nordon. He Copenhagen and leading TGC Nordon. He Copenhagen and leading TGC Nordon. He was closing the conference by preaching was closing the conference by preaching was closing the conference by preaching an excellent message on suffering from

an excellent message on suffering from an excellent message on suffering from Romans 8. Romans 8. Romans 8. And as I walked in to hear him preach And as I walked in to hear him preach And as I walked in to hear him preach that the transition from the sunny that the transition from the sunny that the transition from the sunny streets to the stuffy church, streets to the stuffy church, streets to the stuffy church, it jarred me. And I asked myself, it jarred me. And I asked myself, it jarred me. And I asked myself, which one of us, inside or outside, is which one of us, inside or outside, is which one of us, inside or outside, is out of touch with reality? out of touch with reality? out of touch with reality? Now, of course, as a Christian, I'm Now, of course, as a Christian, I'm Now, of course, as a Christian, I'm reminding myself it's the crowds in the reminding myself it's the crowds in the reminding myself it's the crowds in the streets. They show far less concern for streets. They show far less concern for streets. They show far less concern for the inevitability of death than their the inevitability of death than their the inevitability of death than their existentialist ancestor, Saurin existentialist ancestor, Saurin existentialist ancestor, Saurin Kerkagard, who's actually buried not far Kerkagard, who's actually buried not far Kerkagard, who's actually buried not far away from the church where we met. Uh he away from the church where we met. Uh he away from the church where we met. Uh he certainly thought they should be certainly thought they should be certainly thought they should be concerned about about death and and uh concerned about about death and and uh concerned about about death and and uh its inevitability. ask myself again, but its inevitability. ask myself again, but its inevitability. ask myself again, but who feels out of touch with reality? who feels out of touch with reality? who feels out of touch with reality? I mean, it's it's it's us. It's the I mean, it's it's it's us. It's the I mean, it's it's it's us. It's the Christians sitting inside a dark church Christians sitting inside a dark church Christians sitting inside a dark church on a Saturday morning talking about on a Saturday morning talking about on a Saturday morning talking about suffering and the sovereignty of God.

suffering and the sovereignty of God. suffering and the sovereignty of God. We're the ones who feel under secularism We're the ones who feel under secularism We're the ones who feel under secularism like we're living a self-inflicted like we're living a self-inflicted like we're living a self-inflicted nightmare nightmare nightmare while the world enjoys the last weeks of while the world enjoys the last weeks of while the world enjoys the last weeks of sun before the long northern winter sun before the long northern winter sun before the long northern winter descends with its early nights and late descends with its early nights and late descends with its early nights and late mornings. mornings. mornings. As I met with and heard from and talked As I met with and heard from and talked As I met with and heard from and talked to these church planters and to these church planters and to these church planters and missionaries, I was reminded again, missionaries, I was reminded again, missionaries, I was reminded again, these are my heroes. They are the these are my heroes. They are the these are my heroes. They are the pillars of reality of truth amid the pillars of reality of truth amid the pillars of reality of truth amid the unreality of abundance that factually unreality of abundance that factually unreality of abundance that factually speaking none of us will be able to take speaking none of us will be able to take speaking none of us will be able to take into eternity no matter how we feel into eternity no matter how we feel into eternity no matter how we feel about it in the moment. And these church about it in the moment. And these church about it in the moment. And these church planters, these pastors, these planters, these pastors, these planters, these pastors, these missionaries, they face apathy and missionaries, they face apathy and missionaries, they face apathy and sometimes outright opposition from sometimes outright opposition from sometimes outright opposition from people who are amusing themselves to people who are amusing themselves to people who are amusing themselves to death with alcohol and drugs. death with alcohol and drugs. death with alcohol and drugs. This is, I think, a feel for the This is, I think, a feel for the This is, I think, a feel for the challenge of Christianity in our secular challenge of Christianity in our secular challenge of Christianity in our secular age. It is not that we're wrong.

age. It is not that we're wrong. age. It is not that we're wrong. Changing cultures don't change the fact Changing cultures don't change the fact Changing cultures don't change the fact that 2,000 years ago, Jesus, the son of that 2,000 years ago, Jesus, the son of that 2,000 years ago, Jesus, the son of God, rose from the dead. He's the only God, rose from the dead. He's the only God, rose from the dead. He's the only way any of us can escape the sentence of way any of us can escape the sentence of way any of us can escape the sentence of death and eternal judgment that we death and eternal judgment that we death and eternal judgment that we deserve. deserve. deserve. The challenge though, in many secular The challenge though, in many secular The challenge though, in many secular places, Jesus doesn't feel needed. He places, Jesus doesn't feel needed. He places, Jesus doesn't feel needed. He doesn't feel necessary even for doing doesn't feel necessary even for doing doesn't feel necessary even for doing good or living a good life. good or living a good life. good or living a good life. It's the same story from Boston to It's the same story from Boston to It's the same story from Boston to Manchester, from Bergen to Malmo. Manchester, from Bergen to Malmo. Manchester, from Bergen to Malmo. Reality does not feel real. Reality does not feel real. Reality does not feel real. The reality of these theological truths The reality of these theological truths The reality of these theological truths that we know incontrovertibly as that we know incontrovertibly as that we know incontrovertibly as Christians does not feel real. Christians does not feel real. Christians does not feel real. If we're going to crack though the If we're going to crack though the If we're going to crack though the missional problem of secularism, missional problem of secularism, missional problem of secularism, we need to look closer at these we need to look closer at these we need to look closer at these differences between the United States differences between the United States differences between the United States and Europe. And that means we also need and Europe. And that means we also need and Europe. And that means we also need to look closer at the differences to look closer at the differences to look closer at the differences between different countries in Europe between different countries in Europe between different countries in Europe and different states in the United and different states in the United and different states in the United States.

States. States. So, let's keep digging. See what we can So, let's keep digging. See what we can So, let's keep digging. See what we can find here at the bottom. Let's look more find here at the bottom. Let's look more find here at the bottom. Let's look more closely at Europe first. Now, the first closely at Europe first. Now, the first closely at Europe first. Now, the first thing you see in this list, you've thing you see in this list, you've thing you see in this list, you've probably already picked up on it and probably already picked up on it and probably already picked up on it and what I've already said. It's a clear what I've already said. It's a clear what I've already said. It's a clear Protestant Catholic divide. Poland, Protestant Catholic divide. Poland, Protestant Catholic divide. Poland, Slovakia, Ireland, and Italy, they're Slovakia, Ireland, and Italy, they're Slovakia, Ireland, and Italy, they're all predominantly Catholic countries. all predominantly Catholic countries. all predominantly Catholic countries. Now, Cypress also sneaks in there in the Now, Cypress also sneaks in there in the Now, Cypress also sneaks in there in the middle as an Orthodox country. Norway, middle as an Orthodox country. Norway, middle as an Orthodox country. Norway, Sweden, Iceland, they're on the bottom, Sweden, Iceland, they're on the bottom, Sweden, Iceland, they're on the bottom, and they're historically Protestant and they're historically Protestant and they're historically Protestant countries since the Reformation. So countries since the Reformation. So countries since the Reformation. So already we have our first big clue about already we have our first big clue about already we have our first big clue about the nature and origins of secularism the nature and origins of secularism the nature and origins of secularism that there's a something different at that there's a something different at that there's a something different at least between Protestants and Catholics least between Protestants and Catholics least between Protestants and Catholics on the question of weekly church on the question of weekly church on the question of weekly church attendance and saying that religion is attendance and saying that religion is attendance and saying that religion is very important. So we already see that very important. So we already see that very important. So we already see that divide in Europe. When you look at the divide in Europe. When you look at the divide in Europe. When you look at the United States though the picture does United States though the picture does United States though the picture does not look quite so clear.

not look quite so clear. not look quite so clear. You have predominantly Protestant states You have predominantly Protestant states You have predominantly Protestant states in the deep south with high in the deep south with high in the deep south with high concentration concentrations of Baptists concentration concentrations of Baptists concentration concentrations of Baptists and Methodists. They rank the highest in and Methodists. They rank the highest in and Methodists. They rank the highest in religiosity and church attendance. And religiosity and church attendance. And religiosity and church attendance. And the mostly Catholic states of New the mostly Catholic states of New the mostly Catholic states of New England, they rank the lowest. England, they rank the lowest. England, they rank the lowest. Does that mean then that there's really Does that mean then that there's really Does that mean then that there's really nothing we can derive from looking at nothing we can derive from looking at nothing we can derive from looking at the differences in the West between the differences in the West between the differences in the West between Protestants and Catholics? Protestants and Catholics? Protestants and Catholics? Well, I still think we can derive some Well, I still think we can derive some Well, I still think we can derive some of these differences. And let me let me of these differences. And let me let me of these differences. And let me let me tell you why. tell you why. tell you why. What do we see in common between the What do we see in common between the What do we see in common between the most religious European countries most religious European countries most religious European countries and the most religious American states? and the most religious American states? and the most religious American states? If you peer into the history, what If you peer into the history, what If you peer into the history, what you'll find is a high degree of tension you'll find is a high degree of tension you'll find is a high degree of tension between the church and the culture or between the church and the culture or between the church and the culture or even more explicitly with political even more explicitly with political even more explicitly with political authorities. Let's just consider the authorities. Let's just consider the authorities. Let's just consider the example of Poland. The Catholic Church example of Poland. The Catholic Church example of Poland. The Catholic Church that gave us Pope John Paul II was the that gave us Pope John Paul II was the that gave us Pope John Paul II was the primary opponent of Soviet controlled primary opponent of Soviet controlled primary opponent of Soviet controlled communism in the 19 or into the early communism in the 19 or into the early communism in the 19 or into the early 1990s.

1990s. 1990s. As a result of this history, the church As a result of this history, the church As a result of this history, the church plays a large role in national identity, plays a large role in national identity, plays a large role in national identity, especially since Poland faces an ongoing especially since Poland faces an ongoing especially since Poland faces an ongoing security threat from the nearby Russian security threat from the nearby Russian security threat from the nearby Russian colossus. colossus. colossus. Now, as Poland's situation and their Now, as Poland's situation and their Now, as Poland's situation and their Catholic history, let's turn back to the Catholic history, let's turn back to the Catholic history, let's turn back to the American South or even let's toss in American South or even let's toss in American South or even let's toss in their rural North Dakota because you'll their rural North Dakota because you'll their rural North Dakota because you'll actually find some similar dynamics actually find some similar dynamics actually find some similar dynamics there. a high degree of tension between there. a high degree of tension between there. a high degree of tension between the church and the culture or political the church and the culture or political the church and the culture or political authorities. authorities. authorities. In rural American states like the In rural American states like the In rural American states like the Dakotas, they tend to define themselves Dakotas, they tend to define themselves Dakotas, they tend to define themselves against the interests of nearby larger against the interests of nearby larger against the interests of nearby larger cities which are more progressive and cities which are more progressive and cities which are more progressive and secular. And in these places, the church secular. And in these places, the church secular. And in these places, the church defends the contrary values of defends the contrary values of defends the contrary values of tradition, of family, of community, and tradition, of family, of community, and tradition, of family, of community, and of morality. of morality. of morality. That's the tension you see there in That's the tension you see there in That's the tension you see there in these rural states. Now, the South has these rural states. Now, the South has these rural states. Now, the South has the highest concentration of the highest concentration of the highest concentration of African-Americans in the United States, African-Americans in the United States, African-Americans in the United States, and the church has been a pillar and a and the church has been a pillar and a and the church has been a pillar and a unifying force in the black community in unifying force in the black community in unifying force in the black community in the face of marginalization and often the face of marginalization and often the face of marginalization and often outright persecution. Once again, outright persecution. Once again, outright persecution. Once again, significant level of tension between the significant level of tension between the significant level of tension between the church and its outside culture.

church and its outside culture. church and its outside culture. Now, that's not the whole community, but Now, that's not the whole community, but Now, that's not the whole community, but it's look at at white Christians in the it's look at at white Christians in the it's look at at white Christians in the south. They might be in the majority in south. They might be in the majority in south. They might be in the majority in many of their communities and and many of their communities and and many of their communities and and certainly at the state level, but once certainly at the state level, but once certainly at the state level, but once again, that's not how they see their again, that's not how they see their again, that's not how they see their identity. They see it in contrast with identity. They see it in contrast with identity. They see it in contrast with northern progressives, especially those northern progressives, especially those northern progressives, especially those Yankees of New England. Yankees of New England. Yankees of New England. And in this brief commentary, I don't And in this brief commentary, I don't And in this brief commentary, I don't need to belabor the problems with this need to belabor the problems with this need to belabor the problems with this approach, which go all the way back to approach, which go all the way back to approach, which go all the way back to slavery and segregation. I'm simply slavery and segregation. I'm simply slavery and segregation. I'm simply trying to make this point that even trying to make this point that even trying to make this point that even today southern identity in the United today southern identity in the United today southern identity in the United States sees its values threatened and States sees its values threatened and States sees its values threatened and the church is the primary citadel of its the church is the primary citadel of its the church is the primary citadel of its defense. This tension that we see in all these This tension that we see in all these different places, Catholic Europe, different places, Catholic Europe, different places, Catholic Europe, Protestant United States, it's it's a Protestant United States, it's it's a Protestant United States, it's it's a necessary result necessary result necessary result of churches trying to be faithful to of churches trying to be faithful to of churches trying to be faithful to scripture. Not in every case. We've scripture. Not in every case. We've scripture. Not in every case. We've pointed out a couple bad examples, but pointed out a couple bad examples, but pointed out a couple bad examples, but it's if you're going to be faithful, it's if you're going to be faithful, it's if you're going to be faithful, there's going to be tension. You see there's going to be tension. You see there's going to be tension. You see this from the prophets to the apostles this from the prophets to the apostles this from the prophets to the apostles and of course with Jesus himself.

and of course with Jesus himself. and of course with Jesus himself. Now that's just biblically normative. Now that's just biblically normative. Now that's just biblically normative. But in terms of the situ his historical But in terms of the situ his historical But in terms of the situ his historical situation, you can also see how it's situation, you can also see how it's situation, you can also see how it's necessary when we study Christian necessary when we study Christian necessary when we study Christian movements that have endured and spread movements that have endured and spread movements that have endured and spread through history. through history. through history. Larry Herado is a late scholar of second Larry Herado is a late scholar of second Larry Herado is a late scholar of second century Christianity. He offered a century Christianity. He offered a century Christianity. He offered a sociology of a historical sociology of sociology of a historical sociology of sociology of a historical sociology of religion in his great book, highly religion in his great book, highly religion in his great book, highly recommended, Destroyer of the Gods. recommended, Destroyer of the Gods. recommended, Destroyer of the Gods. Here's a quote from Professor Herertado. Here's a quote from Professor Herertado. Here's a quote from Professor Herertado. A successful religious movement must A successful religious movement must A successful religious movement must retain a certain level of continuity retain a certain level of continuity retain a certain level of continuity with its cultural setting and yet it with its cultural setting and yet it with its cultural setting and yet it must also maintain a medium level of must also maintain a medium level of must also maintain a medium level of tension with that setting as well. That tension with that setting as well. That tension with that setting as well. That is a movement must avoid being seen as is a movement must avoid being seen as is a movement must avoid being seen as completely alien or incomprehensible. completely alien or incomprehensible. completely alien or incomprehensible. But on the other hand, it must also have But on the other hand, it must also have But on the other hand, it must also have what I mean by distinctives. what I mean by distinctives. what I mean by distinctives. Distinguishing features that set it Distinguishing features that set it Distinguishing features that set it apart in its cultural setting, including apart in its cultural setting, including apart in its cultural setting, including the behavioral demands made upon its the behavioral demands made upon its the behavioral demands made upon its converts.

converts. converts. There has to be a clear difference There has to be a clear difference There has to be a clear difference between being an insider to the group between being an insider to the group between being an insider to the group and an outsider. and an outsider. and an outsider. That's Larry Herertado, destroyer of the That's Larry Herertado, destroyer of the That's Larry Herertado, destroyer of the gods. The way I like to describe it is gods. The way I like to describe it is gods. The way I like to describe it is that these churches that have grown and that these churches that have grown and that these churches that have grown and grown and spread, they are accessible grown and spread, they are accessible grown and spread, they are accessible and they are also odd. They are not and they are also odd. They are not and they are also odd. They are not cults. They're they're not completely cults. They're they're not completely cults. They're they're not completely set against the outside culture and set against the outside culture and set against the outside culture and closed off, but they're not assimilated closed off, but they're not assimilated closed off, but they're not assimilated either. They're not just there is a either. They're not just there is a either. They're not just there is a significant degree of tension and significant degree of tension and significant degree of tension and difference from the culture. So that difference from the culture. So that difference from the culture. So that tension that we've already observed in tension that we've already observed in tension that we've already observed in the American states that are more the American states that are more the American states that are more religious and the European religious and the European religious and the European uh countries that are more religious uh countries that are more religious uh countries that are more religious brings us then to our second major brings us then to our second major brings us then to our second major point. Point one, you see that tension point. Point one, you see that tension point. Point one, you see that tension in both places. Now point two, I I in both places. Now point two, I I in both places. Now point two, I I visited an often ministry in Geneva, visited an often ministry in Geneva, visited an often ministry in Geneva, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Boston, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Boston, Copenhagen, Stockholm, Boston, Edinburgh, London, Berlin, Amsterdam.

Edinburgh, London, Berlin, Amsterdam. Edinburgh, London, Berlin, Amsterdam. uh really a short list of the most uh really a short list of the most uh really a short list of the most secular cities in the world secular cities in the world secular cities in the world and at one point they have all been and at one point they have all been and at one point they have all been among the most important Protestant among the most important Protestant among the most important Protestant cities in the world too. They have been cities in the world too. They have been cities in the world too. They have been or even remain today the capitals of or even remain today the capitals of or even remain today the capitals of established or official government established or official government established or official government Protestantism. Protestantism. Protestantism. And I don't think that detail is And I don't think that detail is And I don't think that detail is incidental to our investigation. incidental to our investigation. incidental to our investigation. I think it's another big clue. I think it's another big clue. I think it's another big clue. Now, I don't just say this as a free Now, I don't just say this as a free Now, I don't just say this as a free church Baptist. I'm trying to work church Baptist. I'm trying to work church Baptist. I'm trying to work inductively backward from the evidence. inductively backward from the evidence. inductively backward from the evidence. But what you see with an established But what you see with an established But what you see with an established church is that the church cannot church is that the church cannot church is that the church cannot tolerate that tension with the state or tolerate that tension with the state or tolerate that tension with the state or culture that herado identifies with culture that herado identifies with culture that herado identifies with successful and enduring religious successful and enduring religious successful and enduring religious movements. The job of of an established movements. The job of of an established movements. The job of of an established church is to facilitate social cohesion church is to facilitate social cohesion church is to facilitate social cohesion to serve a political vision. And to serve a political vision. And to serve a political vision. And depending on the country and the time depending on the country and the time depending on the country and the time period, it's very true. Some established period, it's very true. Some established period, it's very true. Some established church leaders, they can speak out church leaders, they can speak out church leaders, they can speak out against the government. They can oppose against the government. They can oppose against the government. They can oppose a war. They can even condemn an immoral a war. They can even condemn an immoral a war. They can even condemn an immoral leader. Uh and you see this today with leader. Uh and you see this today with leader. Uh and you see this today with established churches in various places established churches in various places established churches in various places around the world. You can see that around the world. You can see that around the world. You can see that commonly when it comes to economics or commonly when it comes to economics or commonly when it comes to economics or environmentalism, environmentalism, environmentalism, um church leaders are often very happy

um church leaders are often very happy um church leaders are often very happy to speak out against the government. to speak out against the government. to speak out against the government. There's no Anglican bishop quaking in There's no Anglican bishop quaking in There's no Anglican bishop quaking in his boots before he denounced the his boots before he denounced the his boots before he denounced the denounces the economic plan of a UK denounces the economic plan of a UK denounces the economic plan of a UK prime minister. prime minister. prime minister. But when he does this, he's still doing But when he does this, he's still doing But when he does this, he's still doing so by going with and not against the so by going with and not against the so by going with and not against the grain of the broader culture. grain of the broader culture. grain of the broader culture. What you find is far more rare is the What you find is far more rare is the What you find is far more rare is the bishop who speaks against assisted bishop who speaks against assisted bishop who speaks against assisted suicide or abortion or homosexuality. suicide or abortion or homosexuality. suicide or abortion or homosexuality. Now it may take a while for the views of Now it may take a while for the views of Now it may take a while for the views of the church and the establishment to the church and the establishment to the church and the establishment to converge converge converge but eventually the established church but eventually the established church but eventually the established church not always but in many cases catches up not always but in many cases catches up not always but in many cases catches up with where the culture and the with where the culture and the with where the culture and the politicians have already led because a politicians have already led because a politicians have already led because a tension between the an established tension between the an established tension between the an established church and the state must be relieved church and the state must be relieved church and the state must be relieved because society must be stabilized and because society must be stabilized and because society must be stabilized and unified with the church's help. That's unified with the church's help. That's unified with the church's help. That's the role that the church plays.

the role that the church plays. the role that the church plays. Now, let's try to consider some more Now, let's try to consider some more Now, let's try to consider some more objections to this thesis. I can already objections to this thesis. I can already objections to this thesis. I can already hear you say, "What about Italy? What hear you say, "What about Italy? What hear you say, "What about Italy? What about Ireland? What could be more about Ireland? What could be more about Ireland? What could be more established than the Catholic Church in established than the Catholic Church in established than the Catholic Church in those countries?" those countries?" those countries?" Well, I think there are some mitigating Well, I think there are some mitigating Well, I think there are some mitigating circumstances here. Ireland, I think, circumstances here. Ireland, I think, circumstances here. Ireland, I think, can at least be explained by the can at least be explained by the can at least be explained by the opposition to England. And then, of opposition to England. And then, of opposition to England. And then, of course, Northern Ireland, Italy. We know course, Northern Ireland, Italy. We know course, Northern Ireland, Italy. We know it's the home of the Vatican. But I it's the home of the Vatican. But I it's the home of the Vatican. But I still think there's something valid still think there's something valid still think there's something valid here. There's something valid that we've here. There's something valid that we've here. There's something valid that we've got to be able to dig even deeper now to got to be able to dig even deeper now to got to be able to dig even deeper now to be able to explore. be able to explore. be able to explore. So, let's keep going. Let's go back to So, let's keep going. Let's go back to So, let's keep going. Let's go back to the Protestant element of this equation. the Protestant element of this equation. the Protestant element of this equation. We've looked at the establishment We've looked at the establishment We've looked at the establishment component. We've looked at the tension, component. We've looked at the tension, component. We've looked at the tension, but let's look now at the Protestant but let's look now at the Protestant but let's look now at the Protestant dimension specifically. dimension specifically. dimension specifically. Now, the vision of the reformers is one Now, the vision of the reformers is one Now, the vision of the reformers is one that I wholeheartedly that I wholeheartedly that I wholeheartedly support. And what the reformers did that support. And what the reformers did that support. And what the reformers did that I think was so deeply and compellingly I think was so deeply and compellingly I think was so deeply and compellingly biblical is they combined an authentic biblical is they combined an authentic biblical is they combined an authentic inner spirituality with an applied inner spirituality with an applied inner spirituality with an applied public theology.

public theology. public theology. I'll say that again. They combined an I'll say that again. They combined an I'll say that again. They combined an authentic inner spirituality with an authentic inner spirituality with an authentic inner spirituality with an applied public theology that included applied public theology that included applied public theology that included everyone in society. everyone in society. everyone in society. And the leading reformers Calvin and And the leading reformers Calvin and And the leading reformers Calvin and Luther among them, they worked in Luther among them, they worked in Luther among them, they worked in establishment contexts. They wanted to establishment contexts. They wanted to establishment contexts. They wanted to see spiritual revival through an see spiritual revival through an see spiritual revival through an authentic unmediated authentic unmediated authentic unmediated encounter with God's word. supported encounter with God's word. supported encounter with God's word. supported clearly by the church's teaching through clearly by the church's teaching through clearly by the church's teaching through history, but primarily through a direct history, but primarily through a direct history, but primarily through a direct personal encounter with the word. They personal encounter with the word. They personal encounter with the word. They wanted to see that word then from the wanted to see that word then from the wanted to see that word then from the individual and the church then applied individual and the church then applied individual and the church then applied in how society was ordered in concert in how society was ordered in concert in how society was ordered in concert with the government. Well, so far so with the government. Well, so far so with the government. Well, so far so good. good. good. And when I was walking around to And when I was walking around to And when I was walking around to Copenhagen Copenhagen Copenhagen just marveling at this amazing city, I just marveling at this amazing city, I just marveling at this amazing city, I was really reminded of how successful was really reminded of how successful was really reminded of how successful those reforms had been. I just kept those reforms had been. I just kept those reforms had been. I just kept looking around thinking this is the looking around thinking this is the looking around thinking this is the world Protestantism world Protestantism world Protestantism created.

created. created. A world that through this desire for A world that through this desire for A world that through this desire for everybody to know the scriptures everybody to know the scriptures everybody to know the scriptures produced universal literacy, produced universal literacy, produced universal literacy, widespread prosperity, widespread prosperity, widespread prosperity, and an unmatched reputation for human and an unmatched reputation for human and an unmatched reputation for human rights advocacy no matter where around rights advocacy no matter where around rights advocacy no matter where around the world. the world. the world. When you visit one of these cities and When you visit one of these cities and When you visit one of these cities and walk the safe, clean streets, it's not walk the safe, clean streets, it's not walk the safe, clean streets, it's not just some kind of top-down government just some kind of top-down government just some kind of top-down government program. program. program. They are the product of a bottomup They are the product of a bottomup They are the product of a bottomup behavior of people who have internalized behavior of people who have internalized behavior of people who have internalized the biblical commands over generations the biblical commands over generations the biblical commands over generations and generations. and generations. and generations. These streets are the the product of a These streets are the the product of a These streets are the the product of a dynamic and innovative culture formed by dynamic and innovative culture formed by dynamic and innovative culture formed by Protestant learning that was aimed to be Protestant learning that was aimed to be Protestant learning that was aimed to be applied to the common good. applied to the common good. applied to the common good. I just marveled at this miracle. These I just marveled at this miracle. These I just marveled at this miracle. These Danes have turned, if you don't know Danes have turned, if you don't know Danes have turned, if you don't know what I'm talking about, think about what I'm talking about, think about what I'm talking about, think about these weight loss drugs. These Danes these weight loss drugs. These Danes these weight loss drugs. These Danes have turned lizard spit into a shot that have turned lizard spit into a shot that have turned lizard spit into a shot that solves obesity, which has been largely solves obesity, which has been largely solves obesity, which has been largely created by cheap abundant food as we sit created by cheap abundant food as we sit created by cheap abundant food as we sit behind our screens instead of laboring behind our screens instead of laboring behind our screens instead of laboring in the fields for our daily bread.

in the fields for our daily bread. in the fields for our daily bread. I mean this is a a miracle of human I mean this is a a miracle of human I mean this is a a miracle of human ingenuity of solving problems in some ingenuity of solving problems in some ingenuity of solving problems in some ways of our own making solving problems ways of our own making solving problems ways of our own making solving problems of our own decadence. of our own decadence. of our own decadence. My great-grandparents who fled poverty My great-grandparents who fled poverty My great-grandparents who fled poverty and hunger in these Scandinavian and hunger in these Scandinavian and hunger in these Scandinavian countries could never have imagined countries could never have imagined countries could never have imagined this leap forward in the last century. this leap forward in the last century. this leap forward in the last century. It's truly remarkable. It's truly remarkable. It's truly remarkable. Now, Protestantism in creating these Now, Protestantism in creating these Now, Protestantism in creating these innovative, safe, prosperous societies, innovative, safe, prosperous societies, innovative, safe, prosperous societies, it it normalized and universalized it it normalized and universalized it it normalized and universalized the interiority, the interiority, the interiority, the the inward accountability the the inward accountability the the inward accountability that comes from Christianity. that comes from Christianity. that comes from Christianity. Think about this. As we see so clearly Think about this. As we see so clearly Think about this. As we see so clearly in the Puritans of New England, in the Puritans of New England, in the Puritans of New England, Protestants expected everyone to Protestants expected everyone to Protestants expected everyone to experience an encounter with God experience an encounter with God experience an encounter with God ultimately to obey God and to love one ultimately to obey God and to love one ultimately to obey God and to love one another out of an inward desire, not another out of an inward desire, not another out of an inward desire, not merely from some kind of outward merely from some kind of outward merely from some kind of outward conformity.

conformity. conformity. And then the expectation was these And then the expectation was these And then the expectation was these Protestants would would see their Protestants would would see their Protestants would would see their communities become cities on a hill, communities become cities on a hill, communities become cities on a hill, beacons of righteousness when that faith beacons of righteousness when that faith beacons of righteousness when that faith was applied to all of life. was applied to all of life. was applied to all of life. And I just don't think there's any And I just don't think there's any And I just don't think there's any reason to be surprised that the reason to be surprised that the reason to be surprised that the Protestant countries of Northern Europe Protestant countries of Northern Europe Protestant countries of Northern Europe have become famous for their generous have become famous for their generous have become famous for their generous social welfare programs. It's their social welfare programs. It's their social welfare programs. It's their faith applied to society when you're faith applied to society when you're faith applied to society when you're prosperous enough to afford it. prosperous enough to afford it. prosperous enough to afford it. All right. So that's the that's the All right. So that's the that's the All right. So that's the that's the world that Protestantism world that Protestantism world that Protestantism created. created. created. So what's the problem? How does that So what's the problem? How does that So what's the problem? How does that then give way toward the decline of the then give way toward the decline of the then give way toward the decline of the church in secularism? I think in some church in secularism? I think in some church in secularism? I think in some ways it's a fairly simple answer. The ways it's a fairly simple answer. The ways it's a fairly simple answer. The church has become a victim of its own church has become a victim of its own church has become a victim of its own success when you already see the safe, success when you already see the safe, success when you already see the safe, clean streets and people obeying from clean streets and people obeying from clean streets and people obeying from within and the government taking care of within and the government taking care of within and the government taking care of every problem. The natural question is every problem. The natural question is every problem. The natural question is what's the purpose of the church? Who what's the purpose of the church? Who what's the purpose of the church? Who needs a sermon to tell you what you needs a sermon to tell you what you needs a sermon to tell you what you already know what to do to be a good already know what to do to be a good already know what to do to be a good citizen? You'll be sitting inside citizen? You'll be sitting inside citizen? You'll be sitting inside hearing a sermon on suffering from hearing a sermon on suffering from hearing a sermon on suffering from Romans 8 while outside the crowds are Romans 8 while outside the crowds are Romans 8 while outside the crowds are thinking, "Hey, good news is that thinking, "Hey, good news is that thinking, "Hey, good news is that anything goes wrong with me, the anything goes wrong with me, the anything goes wrong with me, the government's going to take care of me."

government's going to take care of me." government's going to take care of me." he's run into this basic problem of he's run into this basic problem of he's run into this basic problem of unreality with Christianity in the unreality with Christianity in the unreality with Christianity in the secular west that Christianity doesn't secular west that Christianity doesn't secular west that Christianity doesn't feel necessary feel necessary feel necessary which is again the feedback that I heard which is again the feedback that I heard which is again the feedback that I heard from so many church leaders across the from so many church leaders across the from so many church leaders across the Nordics. [sighs] Nordics. [sighs] Nordics. [sighs] So you see the church then become a So you see the church then become a So you see the church then become a victim of his own success where people victim of his own success where people victim of his own success where people have internalized have internalized have internalized religion and they've externalized their religion and they've externalized their religion and they've externalized their care for others care for others care for others such that again what what's the what's such that again what what's the what's such that again what what's the what's the purpose of a church when we're the purpose of a church when we're the purpose of a church when we're already doing what we were supposed to already doing what we were supposed to already doing what we were supposed to be doing to be good Protestants. be doing to be good Protestants. be doing to be good Protestants. Now there's another problem that leads Now there's another problem that leads Now there's another problem that leads to secularism and it does stand out to secularism and it does stand out to secularism and it does stand out among Protestants. among Protestants. among Protestants. Charles Taylor going back once again to Charles Taylor going back once again to Charles Taylor going back once again to his his work a secular age along with a his his work a secular age along with a his his work a secular age along with a few others. He faults the reformers goes few others. He faults the reformers goes few others. He faults the reformers goes back to the reformation. Uh he's back to the reformation. Uh he's back to the reformation. Uh he's Catholic and he says that the reformers Catholic and he says that the reformers Catholic and he says that the reformers expected too much from individuals and expected too much from individuals and expected too much from individuals and they expected also too much of society.

they expected also too much of society. they expected also too much of society. He said it's way easier to maintain a He said it's way easier to maintain a He said it's way easier to maintain a religion that's made up of rituals and religion that's made up of rituals and religion that's made up of rituals and of public uh performance. of public uh performance. of public uh performance. You can go to mass and because you just You can go to mass and because you just You can go to mass and because you just need to receive the host there. You need to receive the host there. You need to receive the host there. You don't really expect everyone to act like don't really expect everyone to act like don't really expect everyone to act like saints. That's why we venerate the few saints. That's why we venerate the few saints. That's why we venerate the few instead of overburdening the many with instead of overburdening the many with instead of overburdening the many with these expectations. these expectations. these expectations. And Taylor as a Catholic looks back with And Taylor as a Catholic looks back with And Taylor as a Catholic looks back with criticism and calls this problem capital criticism and calls this problem capital criticism and calls this problem capital R reform. R reform. R reform. He observes this essential tension in He observes this essential tension in He observes this essential tension in Protestantism. The individual is Protestantism. The individual is Protestantism. The individual is justified by faith alone. That's the justified by faith alone. That's the justified by faith alone. That's the objective work. It's the Apostle Paul. objective work. It's the Apostle Paul. objective work. It's the Apostle Paul. Then he comes back and says, "But wait, Then he comes back and says, "But wait, Then he comes back and says, "But wait, your your proof of your faith is found your your proof of your faith is found your your proof of your faith is found in your works. That's subjective. That's in your works. That's subjective. That's in your works. That's subjective. That's the book of James." the book of James." the book of James." So Taylor then poses a question to us as So Taylor then poses a question to us as So Taylor then poses a question to us as Protestants. How do you know you're Protestants. How do you know you're Protestants. How do you know you're justified? justified? justified? How do you know if you're justified if How do you know if you're justified if How do you know if you're justified if your works are not supposed to your works are not supposed to your works are not supposed to contribute to that salvation?

contribute to that salvation? contribute to that salvation? I think this relies on a fundamental I think this relies on a fundamental I think this relies on a fundamental misunderstanding not only the scriptures misunderstanding not only the scriptures misunderstanding not only the scriptures but also of the the Protestant view, but but also of the the Protestant view, but but also of the the Protestant view, but that's the basic critique that he that's the basic critique that he that's the basic critique that he offers. And he says that Protestantism offers. And he says that Protestantism offers. And he says that Protestantism ultimately folds under the weight of its ultimately folds under the weight of its ultimately folds under the weight of its own heavy expectations. own heavy expectations. own heavy expectations. I'm not persuaded by this argument, but I'm not persuaded by this argument, but I'm not persuaded by this argument, but I can definitely recognize the force of I can definitely recognize the force of I can definitely recognize the force of it. Protestantism creates high it. Protestantism creates high it. Protestantism creates high expectations expectations expectations for individuals, which indeed they need for individuals, which indeed they need for individuals, which indeed they need to work out and to prove, give to work out and to prove, give to work out and to prove, give demonstration of in their actions. demonstration of in their actions. demonstration of in their actions. And inevitably in this fallen world, our And inevitably in this fallen world, our And inevitably in this fallen world, our actions are going to fall short. The actions are going to fall short. The actions are going to fall short. The society is is never fully reformed. It society is is never fully reformed. It society is is never fully reformed. It never fully changes the way we would never fully changes the way we would never fully changes the way we would want it to. Sin is not completely want it to. Sin is not completely want it to. Sin is not completely eradicated. eradicated. eradicated. And it does make us wonder whether we're And it does make us wonder whether we're And it does make us wonder whether we're actually saved or whether Christianity actually saved or whether Christianity actually saved or whether Christianity actually works. actually works. actually works. That's what Taylor says makes That's what Taylor says makes That's what Taylor says makes Protestantism again begin to collapse Protestantism again begin to collapse Protestantism again begin to collapse and lead directly to secularism, too and lead directly to secularism, too and lead directly to secularism, too high of expectations, this public and high of expectations, this public and high of expectations, this public and private tension.

private tension. private tension. Now, this public and private dynamic, it Now, this public and private dynamic, it Now, this public and private dynamic, it plays out in confusing ways, I have to plays out in confusing ways, I have to plays out in confusing ways, I have to admit, among Europeans. Ways that I've admit, among Europeans. Ways that I've admit, among Europeans. Ways that I've struggled to understand in conversation struggled to understand in conversation struggled to understand in conversation with many church leaders because in in with many church leaders because in in with many church leaders because in in secular, especially Northern Europe, you secular, especially Northern Europe, you secular, especially Northern Europe, you see a peculiar linkage between a high see a peculiar linkage between a high see a peculiar linkage between a high degree of individual autonomy and a high degree of individual autonomy and a high degree of individual autonomy and a high degree of social conformity. degree of social conformity. degree of social conformity. A lot of ways, what you'd expect from A lot of ways, what you'd expect from A lot of ways, what you'd expect from Protestantism. There's a there's a Protestantism. There's a there's a Protestantism. There's a there's a strong inward impulse but also a strong strong inward impulse but also a strong strong inward impulse but also a strong collective action. But the way I kind of collective action. But the way I kind of collective action. But the way I kind of describe it is that everyone together describe it is that everyone together describe it is that everyone together does their own thing. does their own thing. does their own thing. And church leaders have reported back to And church leaders have reported back to And church leaders have reported back to me this difficulty of disciplehip among me this difficulty of disciplehip among me this difficulty of disciplehip among people who can't imagine being members people who can't imagine being members people who can't imagine being members of a local church. Uh just really recoil of a local church. Uh just really recoil of a local church. Uh just really recoil at the idea of submitting to their at the idea of submitting to their at the idea of submitting to their leaders in a biblical manner. But at the leaders in a biblical manner. But at the leaders in a biblical manner. But at the same time they willingly gladly pay high same time they willingly gladly pay high same time they willingly gladly pay high taxes so that everyone will be roughly taxes so that everyone will be roughly taxes so that everyone will be roughly on the same economic level with access on the same economic level with access on the same economic level with access to education and healthcare. They have a to education and healthcare. They have a to education and healthcare. They have a lot of trust there and and really see lot of trust there and and really see lot of trust there and and really see themselves as needing to pitch in but themselves as needing to pitch in but themselves as needing to pitch in but not in the same way when it comes to not in the same way when it comes to not in the same way when it comes to disciplehip and membership in the disciplehip and membership in the disciplehip and membership in the church. And I think this is another church. And I think this is another church. And I think this is another enigma of secularism.

enigma of secularism. enigma of secularism. Protestantism and its emphasis on Protestantism and its emphasis on Protestantism and its emphasis on individual Bible reading contributed to individual Bible reading contributed to individual Bible reading contributed to this rise of individualism in the west. this rise of individualism in the west. this rise of individualism in the west. No doubt Taylor and other Catholic No doubt Taylor and other Catholic No doubt Taylor and other Catholic critics would point out the same critics would point out the same critics would point out the same individualism that now bucks against individualism that now bucks against individualism that now bucks against church teaching on, for example, church teaching on, for example, church teaching on, for example, sexuality. sexuality. sexuality. And at the same time, Protestantism And at the same time, Protestantism And at the same time, Protestantism created this moral society that expects created this moral society that expects created this moral society that expects everyone to contribute toward the common everyone to contribute toward the common everyone to contribute toward the common good according to strongly held values. In many ways, this is exactly a good In many ways, this is exactly a good thing that we would expect. But once thing that we would expect. But once thing that we would expect. But once again, has Protestantism become a victim again, has Protestantism become a victim again, has Protestantism become a victim of its own success? of its own success? of its own success? So, what happened? How did established So, what happened? How did established So, what happened? How did established Protestantism go to seed and the church Protestantism go to seed and the church Protestantism go to seed and the church nearly disappear in the 20th and 21st nearly disappear in the 20th and 21st nearly disappear in the 20th and 21st centuries? centuries? centuries? You're probably familiar with a number You're probably familiar with a number You're probably familiar with a number of the different arguments that people of the different arguments that people of the different arguments that people have used. They're all true at some have used. They're all true at some have used. They're all true at some level. Nichch's philosophy, Darwin's level. Nichch's philosophy, Darwin's level. Nichch's philosophy, Darwin's natural selection, Freud's [snorts] natural selection, Freud's [snorts] natural selection, Freud's [snorts] psychoanalysis, psychoanalysis, psychoanalysis, they all played a major role.

they all played a major role. they all played a major role. But I think to fill out the picture, we But I think to fill out the picture, we But I think to fill out the picture, we need to add another ingredient here to need to add another ingredient here to need to add another ingredient here to this strange stew of secularism. this strange stew of secularism. this strange stew of secularism. That ingredient is the crisis of the That ingredient is the crisis of the That ingredient is the crisis of the Second World War, Second World War, Second World War, ultimately the destruction of that city ultimately the destruction of that city ultimately the destruction of that city on a hill. on a hill. on a hill. And I thought about this in relation to And I thought about this in relation to And I thought about this in relation to Germany. Germany. Germany. Uh Germany looks historic and venerable, Uh Germany looks historic and venerable, Uh Germany looks historic and venerable, but of course it's been rebuilt on a new but of course it's been rebuilt on a new but of course it's been rebuilt on a new foundation after American and British foundation after American and British foundation after American and British bombs leveled most cities. bombs leveled most cities. bombs leveled most cities. Historically speaking, at least much of Historically speaking, at least much of Historically speaking, at least much of Germany as a facade. Germany as a facade. Germany as a facade. Well, the historian Tom Holland in his Well, the historian Tom Holland in his Well, the historian Tom Holland in his landmark book Dominion has shown how landmark book Dominion has shown how landmark book Dominion has shown how Christianity created much of what we Christianity created much of what we Christianity created much of what we know and value in Western civilization, know and value in Western civilization, know and value in Western civilization, including Europe. And the historian Alec including Europe. And the historian Alec including Europe. And the historian Alec Ryrie in his new book, The Age of Ryrie in his new book, The Age of Ryrie in his new book, The Age of Hitler, explains how Western leaders Hitler, explains how Western leaders Hitler, explains how Western leaders disguised that Christian influence in disguised that Christian influence in disguised that Christian influence in order to create a postwar order to create a postwar order to create a postwar consensus of peace.

consensus of peace. consensus of peace. Now, Ryrie is not faulting Christians Now, Ryrie is not faulting Christians Now, Ryrie is not faulting Christians for for starting the Second World War. for for starting the Second World War. for for starting the Second World War. Um, he certainly faults them, especially Um, he certainly faults them, especially Um, he certainly faults them, especially established church leaders, remember established church leaders, remember established church leaders, remember that lack of tension, uh, for endorsing that lack of tension, uh, for endorsing that lack of tension, uh, for endorsing the first world war to their enduring the first world war to their enduring the first world war to their enduring shame. shame. shame. Ry Ryrie is merely observing that Ry Ryrie is merely observing that Ry Ryrie is merely observing that Christian churches could not prevent or Christian churches could not prevent or Christian churches could not prevent or stop the second world war. And in the stop the second world war. And in the stop the second world war. And in the wake of two catastrophic wars in the wake of two catastrophic wars in the wake of two catastrophic wars in the matter of mere decades, Western leaders matter of mere decades, Western leaders matter of mere decades, Western leaders excluded Christianity from the postwar excluded Christianity from the postwar excluded Christianity from the postwar consensus for peace. consensus for peace. consensus for peace. An example that many people point to is An example that many people point to is An example that many people point to is the United Nations producing a universal the United Nations producing a universal the United Nations producing a universal declaration of human rights without any declaration of human rights without any declaration of human rights without any reference to God. reference to God. reference to God. And Ryrie in this book, The Age of And Ryrie in this book, The Age of And Ryrie in this book, The Age of Hitler, he criticizes CS Lewis in his Hitler, he criticizes CS Lewis in his Hitler, he criticizes CS Lewis in his wartime World War II wartime lecture, wartime World War II wartime lecture, wartime World War II wartime lecture, the abolition of man. And Ryrie argues the abolition of man. And Ryrie argues the abolition of man. And Ryrie argues that in the age after Hitler, the world that in the age after Hitler, the world that in the age after Hitler, the world we still inhabit today, it's humanity we still inhabit today, it's humanity we still inhabit today, it's humanity that has become our shared faith.

that has become our shared faith. that has become our shared faith. In short, the way Ryrie expresses this In short, the way Ryrie expresses this In short, the way Ryrie expresses this is that we do need to be good, not like is that we do need to be good, not like is that we do need to be good, not like Hitler, Hitler, Hitler, and we don't need God to do it. and we don't need God to do it. and we don't need God to do it. As Tom Holland said to me 5 years ago on As Tom Holland said to me 5 years ago on As Tom Holland said to me 5 years ago on this very podcast, this very podcast, this very podcast, you can export and impose universal you can export and impose universal you can export and impose universal human rights on a war torn world, human rights on a war torn world, human rights on a war torn world, but you can't do the same thing but you can't do the same thing but you can't do the same thing politically with Christianity, politically with Christianity, politically with Christianity, which, as Ryrie would argue, had been which, as Ryrie would argue, had been which, as Ryrie would argue, had been widely discredited, even discarded by widely discredited, even discarded by widely discredited, even discarded by the war. the war. the war. And so in order to keep this peace, to And so in order to keep this peace, to And so in order to keep this peace, to be able to impose it on all of the be able to impose it on all of the be able to impose it on all of the world, even the parts that are not world, even the parts that are not world, even the parts that are not Christian, we now then have imposed and Christian, we now then have imposed and Christian, we now then have imposed and share a secular faith in ourselves. Well, I spent a memorable Friday Well, I spent a memorable Friday afternoon with some dear friends touring afternoon with some dear friends touring afternoon with some dear friends touring the National Gallery of Denmark. It's the National Gallery of Denmark. It's the National Gallery of Denmark. It's not far from the King's Garden in not far from the King's Garden in not far from the King's Garden in central Copenhagen.

central Copenhagen. central Copenhagen. And the guide excitedly told us about a And the guide excitedly told us about a And the guide excitedly told us about a new exhibit on surrealism, new exhibit on surrealism, new exhibit on surrealism, which she said has become popular again. which she said has become popular again. which she said has become popular again. And I thought, "No wonder." Now, And I thought, "No wonder." Now, And I thought, "No wonder." Now, surrealism emerged in Europe as a surrealism emerged in Europe as a surrealism emerged in Europe as a response to the First World War. And so, response to the First World War. And so, response to the First World War. And so, you can see why it's popular again, as you can see why it's popular again, as you can see why it's popular again, as the post-war consensus of the Second the post-war consensus of the Second the post-war consensus of the Second World War has finally crumbled with World War has finally crumbled with World War has finally crumbled with Russia's invasion and ongoing war with Russia's invasion and ongoing war with Russia's invasion and ongoing war with Ukraine. Ukraine. Ukraine. You didn't come to Gospel Bound because You didn't come to Gospel Bound because You didn't come to Gospel Bound because you thought that I was an expert in you thought that I was an expert in you thought that I was an expert in surrealism. surrealism. surrealism. But I did read the curator's But I did read the curator's But I did read the curator's explanations of Andre Berto and his explanations of Andre Berto and his explanations of Andre Berto and his second surrealist manifesto from 1929 second surrealist manifesto from 1929 second surrealist manifesto from 1929 fateful year in Western history, the fateful year in Western history, the fateful year in Western history, the stock market crash. Now, here is one of stock market crash. Now, here is one of stock market crash. Now, here is one of those summaries. This is the the Danish those summaries. This is the the Danish those summaries. This is the the Danish National Museum summary of surrealism. National Museum summary of surrealism. National Museum summary of surrealism. And you can see then why it's so And you can see then why it's so And you can see then why it's so significant for today. Here's the significant for today. Here's the significant for today. Here's the summary. Inspired by Freud's summary. Inspired by Freud's summary. Inspired by Freud's psychoanalysis, the Surrealists see psychoanalysis, the Surrealists see psychoanalysis, the Surrealists see drives as a fundamental energy that drives as a fundamental energy that drives as a fundamental energy that moves human beings not only towards life moves human beings not only towards life moves human beings not only towards life and creation, but also towards and creation, but also towards and creation, but also towards dissolution and chaos. This is evident dissolution and chaos. This is evident dissolution and chaos. This is evident in their depictions of war, in their depictions of war, in their depictions of war, disintegrating bodies, and challenges to disintegrating bodies, and challenges to disintegrating bodies, and challenges to authority figures.

authority figures. authority figures. These artists allow themselves to be These artists allow themselves to be These artists allow themselves to be guided by their drives which can lead to guided by their drives which can lead to guided by their drives which can lead to both the construction of new visions and both the construction of new visions and both the construction of new visions and the dismantling of existing norms. Now you can see and even feel in the Now you can see and even feel in the surrealists surrealists surrealists in their in their work in their in their in their work in their in their in their work in their paintings the destruction that was paintings the destruction that was paintings the destruction that was suffered by a generation whose world was suffered by a generation whose world was suffered by a generation whose world was destroyed by war. destroyed by war. destroyed by war. You can also see like those German You can also see like those German You can also see like those German cities that are facades that they they cities that are facades that they they cities that are facades that they they didn't intend to put the world back didn't intend to put the world back didn't intend to put the world back together the same way that they together the same way that they together the same way that they inherited it. They couldn't. It was inherited it. They couldn't. It was inherited it. They couldn't. It was broken. There was no going back to July broken. There was no going back to July broken. There was no going back to July 1914. 1914. 1914. And so, guided by Freud, they would be And so, guided by Freud, they would be And so, guided by Freud, they would be driven to reconstruct life however they driven to reconstruct life however they driven to reconstruct life however they please. please. please. Yes, you can definitely see why Yes, you can definitely see why Yes, you can definitely see why surrealism is popular again. We're not surrealism is popular again. We're not surrealism is popular again. We're not going back to the world before the COVID going back to the world before the COVID going back to the world before the COVID global pandemic or Russia's invasion of global pandemic or Russia's invasion of global pandemic or Russia's invasion of Ukraine or the terrorist attacks on Ukraine or the terrorist attacks on Ukraine or the terrorist attacks on Israel by Gaza or out of Gaza or Germany Israel by Gaza or out of Gaza or Germany Israel by Gaza or out of Gaza or Germany before the bombs.

before the bombs. before the bombs. Ryrie says we can't go back to Ryrie says we can't go back to Ryrie says we can't go back to Christianity either. It's not an option. Christianity either. It's not an option. Christianity either. It's not an option. So, we'll have to make a new world So, we'll have to make a new world So, we'll have to make a new world again, however we feel. again, however we feel. again, however we feel. We'll be lucky. If this is true, we're We'll be lucky. If this is true, we're We'll be lucky. If this is true, we're going to be lucky if it lasts as long as going to be lucky if it lasts as long as going to be lucky if it lasts as long as the post-war consensus did. No one the post-war consensus did. No one the post-war consensus did. No one knows. We're navigating the future knows. We're navigating the future knows. We're navigating the future without a compass, only our drives. without a compass, only our drives. without a compass, only our drives. That's what the surrealists are telling That's what the surrealists are telling That's what the surrealists are telling us. This is modern western secularism. us. This is modern western secularism. us. This is modern western secularism. We've internalized Christianity, but we We've internalized Christianity, but we We've internalized Christianity, but we won't acknowledge it. We've left the won't acknowledge it. We've left the won't acknowledge it. We've left the church. We've publicized Christianity, church. We've publicized Christianity, church. We've publicized Christianity, but we won't credit it. We've abandoned but we won't credit it. We've abandoned but we won't credit it. We've abandoned Christianity, but we don't know how to Christianity, but we don't know how to Christianity, but we don't know how to replace it. replace it. replace it. Let me say that again. Let me say that again. Let me say that again. The essential nature of modern western The essential nature of modern western The essential nature of modern western secularism is that we've internalized secularism is that we've internalized secularism is that we've internalized good Protestants Christianity, but won't good Protestants Christianity, but won't good Protestants Christianity, but won't acknowledge where it came from. We've acknowledge where it came from. We've acknowledge where it came from. We've publicized Christianity. We've applied publicized Christianity. We've applied publicized Christianity. We've applied it to all of life, but we won't credit it to all of life, but we won't credit it to all of life, but we won't credit it. We need to be able to export it as a it. We need to be able to export it as a it. We need to be able to export it as a universal good, even to non-Christians.

universal good, even to non-Christians. universal good, even to non-Christians. And now then, in full flowered And now then, in full flowered And now then, in full flowered secularism, with the decline of the secularism, with the decline of the secularism, with the decline of the church, we've abandoned Christianity. church, we've abandoned Christianity. church, we've abandoned Christianity. But we don't have anything but our But we don't have anything but our But we don't have anything but our drives to know what's supposed to drives to know what's supposed to drives to know what's supposed to replace it. replace it. replace it. And when you consider this, history, you And when you consider this, history, you And when you consider this, history, you see, is is neither cyclical nor is it see, is is neither cyclical nor is it see, is is neither cyclical nor is it linear. We don't know where we're going. linear. We don't know where we're going. linear. We don't know where we're going. And we're not just repeating the past. And we're not just repeating the past. And we're not just repeating the past. One thing we know as Christians reading One thing we know as Christians reading One thing we know as Christians reading our scriptures, God often surprises us. our scriptures, God often surprises us. our scriptures, God often surprises us. The post-war consensus of secular The post-war consensus of secular The post-war consensus of secular universals, even just a few years ago, universals, even just a few years ago, universals, even just a few years ago, well, let's start further back. At one well, let's start further back. At one well, let's start further back. At one point that kind of secular universal point that kind of secular universal point that kind of secular universal peace that seemed impossible. It never peace that seemed impossible. It never peace that seemed impossible. It never nothing like that ever happened in world nothing like that ever happened in world nothing like that ever happened in world history. Then for decades and decades it history. Then for decades and decades it history. Then for decades and decades it seemed impregnable. seemed impregnable. seemed impregnable. And now you're seeing with the revival And now you're seeing with the revival And now you're seeing with the revival of the surrealists of the surrealists of the surrealists it's unlivable.

it's unlivable. it's unlivable. Fascinating. What? At one point it Fascinating. What? At one point it Fascinating. What? At one point it seemed impossible then it was seemed impossible then it was seemed impossible then it was impregnable. Now it's unlivable. impregnable. Now it's unlivable. impregnable. Now it's unlivable. This is what I heard. again and again This is what I heard. again and again This is what I heard. again and again from church leaders in this context. from church leaders in this context. from church leaders in this context. It's not unlivable. Modern secularism is It's not unlivable. Modern secularism is It's not unlivable. Modern secularism is not unlivable because Copenhagen is a not unlivable because Copenhagen is a not unlivable because Copenhagen is a miserable place to visit or to live. No, miserable place to visit or to live. No, miserable place to visit or to live. No, thanks to Christianity and thanks to Christianity and thanks to Christianity and Protestantism, it is a marvelous place. Protestantism, it is a marvelous place. Protestantism, it is a marvelous place. I it is a remarkable achievement. I it is a remarkable achievement. I it is a remarkable achievement. What makes it unlivable What makes it unlivable What makes it unlivable is that in the end, reality always wins. is that in the end, reality always wins. is that in the end, reality always wins. Once you've drunk your coffee, you've Once you've drunk your coffee, you've Once you've drunk your coffee, you've eaten your pastry, eaten your pastry, eaten your pastry, you got to walk home and you got to do you got to walk home and you got to do you got to walk home and you got to do the laundry. the laundry. the laundry. The social social welfare system is The social social welfare system is The social social welfare system is great and in the end it's always going great and in the end it's always going great and in the end it's always going to fail you to fail you to fail you because it can't stop death. Romans 8 is because it can't stop death. Romans 8 is because it can't stop death. Romans 8 is true whether or not it ever feels that true whether or not it ever feels that true whether or not it ever feels that way on a sunny September morning.

way on a sunny September morning. way on a sunny September morning. Today, Today, Today, secularism is running into reality. secularism is running into reality. secularism is running into reality. And despite these appearances, And despite these appearances, And despite these appearances, it's losing. it's losing. it's losing. Reality remains inconvenient to those Reality remains inconvenient to those Reality remains inconvenient to those who deny God. who deny God. who deny God. It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the reality that two genders are different. reality that two genders are different. reality that two genders are different. It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the reality that not every metaphysic reality that not every metaphysic reality that not every metaphysic produces the same desired results. produces the same desired results. produces the same desired results. It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the reality that neighbors often desire to reality that neighbors often desire to reality that neighbors often desire to defeat or conquer their other neighbors. defeat or conquer their other neighbors. defeat or conquer their other neighbors. It's it's inconvenient to run into the It's it's inconvenient to run into the It's it's inconvenient to run into the reality that we need some basis to reality that we need some basis to reality that we need some basis to tolerate differences while also tolerate differences while also tolerate differences while also maintaining social cohesion. maintaining social cohesion. maintaining social cohesion. It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the reality that we need a shared basis for reality that we need a shared basis for reality that we need a shared basis for justice justice justice while also preserving freedoms of while also preserving freedoms of while also preserving freedoms of conscience, of speech, and assembly.

conscience, of speech, and assembly. conscience, of speech, and assembly. It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the It's inconvenient to run into the reality that we need help restraining reality that we need help restraining reality that we need help restraining the drives that destroy ourselves and the drives that destroy ourselves and the drives that destroy ourselves and others. others. others. There has to be a purpose for progress There has to be a purpose for progress There has to be a purpose for progress beyond the cycles of fashion. beyond the cycles of fashion. beyond the cycles of fashion. of art that comes in and out of of art that comes in and out of of art that comes in and out of popularity and merely our feelings of popularity and merely our feelings of popularity and merely our feelings of superiority over the supposedly superiority over the supposedly superiority over the supposedly unenlightened past. unenlightened past. unenlightened past. Now, Now, Now, I do see a a future for the church in I do see a a future for the church in I do see a a future for the church in the most secular cities of the West. I the most secular cities of the West. I the most secular cities of the West. I heard about it from the leaders of of heard about it from the leaders of of heard about it from the leaders of of TGC Nordon, TGC Nordon, TGC Nordon, but I pray for them and I would ask you but I pray for them and I would ask you but I pray for them and I would ask you to pray for them as well. They're often to pray for them as well. They're often to pray for them as well. They're often their work often feels like pushing a their work often feels like pushing a their work often feels like pushing a boulder uphill while they're slipping in boulder uphill while they're slipping in boulder uphill while they're slipping in mud. mud. mud. They are trying to prove the need for They are trying to prove the need for They are trying to prove the need for the solution that they're offering in the solution that they're offering in the solution that they're offering in the gospel when most people are simply the gospel when most people are simply the gospel when most people are simply content to gaze into the blue skies with content to gaze into the blue skies with content to gaze into the blue skies with their coffee and their pastries. They're their coffee and their pastries. They're their coffee and their pastries. They're not wanting to think about death.

not wanting to think about death. not wanting to think about death. They're not wanting to gaze into their They're not wanting to gaze into their They're not wanting to gaze into their souls. They're not wanting to question souls. They're not wanting to question souls. They're not wanting to question whether the numbing effects of their whether the numbing effects of their whether the numbing effects of their drives will ever get old or stale and drives will ever get old or stale and drives will ever get old or stale and thank God ourselves humanity who thank God ourselves humanity who thank God ourselves humanity who supposed to thank here for the welfare supposed to thank here for the welfare supposed to thank here for the welfare state. state. state. Something does seem to be changing Something does seem to be changing Something does seem to be changing however however however and I want to share three perspectives and I want to share three perspectives and I want to share three perspectives on what these leaders think will happen. on what these leaders think will happen. on what these leaders think will happen. I mean I think we see three options. any I mean I think we see three options. any I mean I think we see three options. any one of them could emerge as a tension one of them could emerge as a tension one of them could emerge as a tension point. point. point. Remember what Herado said about growing Remember what Herado said about growing Remember what Herado said about growing and successful religious movements. Any and successful religious movements. Any and successful religious movements. Any one of these three options could emerge one of these three options could emerge one of these three options could emerge as a tension point that would demand a as a tension point that would demand a as a tension point that would demand a widespread unified social action. And widespread unified social action. And widespread unified social action. And when that happens, when that happens, when that happens, it's not surrealism. It's going to it's not surrealism. It's going to it's not surrealism. It's going to provide the answers. provide the answers. provide the answers. The West is going to need Christianity The West is going to need Christianity The West is going to need Christianity again.

again. again. Remember, religions thrive under at Remember, religions thrive under at Remember, religions thrive under at least moderate threats. They create that least moderate threats. They create that least moderate threats. They create that need that's always there, but they make need that's always there, but they make need that's always there, but they make that need known and widespread. that need known and widespread. that need known and widespread. Three options that I see and I've heard Three options that I see and I've heard Three options that I see and I've heard of from leaders in these secular of from leaders in these secular of from leaders in these secular countries. first threat to secularism countries. first threat to secularism countries. first threat to secularism and an opportunity then for Christianity and an opportunity then for Christianity and an opportunity then for Christianity is the rise of Islam and that is is the rise of Islam and that is is the rise of Islam and that is especially through immigration since especially through immigration since especially through immigration since 2015. 2015 is certainly that that date 2015. 2015 is certainly that that date 2015. 2015 is certainly that that date where a lot of these concerns had had where a lot of these concerns had had where a lot of these concerns had had peaked. peaked. peaked. Islam and secular humanism make strange Islam and secular humanism make strange Islam and secular humanism make strange bedfellows despite their shared bedfellows despite their shared bedfellows despite their shared opposition to Christendom. opposition to Christendom. opposition to Christendom. Even Sweden today is not happy after its Even Sweden today is not happy after its Even Sweden today is not happy after its failure to integrate large numbers of failure to integrate large numbers of failure to integrate large numbers of Muslim immigrants. And one of the major Muslim immigrants. And one of the major Muslim immigrants. And one of the major problems with the post-war consensus problems with the post-war consensus problems with the post-war consensus and the way that Christianity was and the way that Christianity was and the way that Christianity was translated into this universal respect translated into this universal respect translated into this universal respect for human dignity is that when you for human dignity is that when you for human dignity is that when you forget where these ideas came from, you forget where these ideas came from, you forget where these ideas came from, you forget what makes your society forget what makes your society forget what makes your society different.

different. different. And much of Europe is finding out that And much of Europe is finding out that And much of Europe is finding out that many Muslims don't share their drives, many Muslims don't share their drives, many Muslims don't share their drives, don't share their vision for the public don't share their vision for the public don't share their vision for the public good. And so the rise of Islam could good. And so the rise of Islam could good. And so the rise of Islam could make the secular West go looking for make the secular West go looking for make the secular West go looking for support and turn back to Christianity support and turn back to Christianity support and turn back to Christianity for survival. for survival. for survival. Hopefully again, not merely as some sort Hopefully again, not merely as some sort Hopefully again, not merely as some sort of political tool, but as the source of of political tool, but as the source of of political tool, but as the source of genuine spiritual awakening. genuine spiritual awakening. genuine spiritual awakening. The second threat to secularism and The second threat to secularism and The second threat to secularism and opportunity for Christianity is related. opportunity for Christianity is related. opportunity for Christianity is related. The secular west is not the only place The secular west is not the only place The secular west is not the only place that is currently suffering a collapse that is currently suffering a collapse that is currently suffering a collapse in fertility. in fertility. in fertility. But the awareness of that collapse But the awareness of that collapse But the awareness of that collapse started in the Nordics in these started in the Nordics in these started in the Nordics in these countries. countries. countries. It's not just a problem that the social It's not just a problem that the social It's not just a problem that the social welfare system depends on younger welfare system depends on younger welfare system depends on younger workers and younger taxpayers. workers and younger taxpayers. workers and younger taxpayers. It's that a society that won't get It's that a society that won't get It's that a society that won't get married or have children is a society married or have children is a society married or have children is a society that has lost a sense of purpose, of that has lost a sense of purpose, of that has lost a sense of purpose, of sacrifice, and even of hope.

sacrifice, and even of hope. sacrifice, and even of hope. And given the higher fertility rates And given the higher fertility rates And given the higher fertility rates right now in many Islamic countries, right now in many Islamic countries, right now in many Islamic countries, Europe may face a simple math problem Europe may face a simple math problem Europe may face a simple math problem within one or two generations. within one or two generations. within one or two generations. The question is, could Christianity The question is, could Christianity The question is, could Christianity restore hope? Could Christianity offer a restore hope? Could Christianity offer a restore hope? Could Christianity offer a vision for giving life to a new vision for giving life to a new vision for giving life to a new generation that would steward the generation that would steward the generation that would steward the culture and values of these beautiful culture and values of these beautiful culture and values of these beautiful countries? countries? countries? That's the second uh threat to That's the second uh threat to That's the second uh threat to secularism and opportunity perhaps for secularism and opportunity perhaps for secularism and opportunity perhaps for Christianity. The third threat to Christianity. The third threat to Christianity. The third threat to secularism, opportunity for Christianity secularism, opportunity for Christianity secularism, opportunity for Christianity is even more pressing and it can change is even more pressing and it can change is even more pressing and it can change in an instant. There were not many out in an instant. There were not many out in an instant. There were not many out there who thought Sweden and Finland there who thought Sweden and Finland there who thought Sweden and Finland would join NATO until all of a sudden would join NATO until all of a sudden would join NATO until all of a sudden they moved quickly to join NATO after they moved quickly to join NATO after they moved quickly to join NATO after Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine. Russia invaded Ukraine. The end of this post-war consensus has The end of this post-war consensus has The end of this post-war consensus has created and centered ultimately concerns created and centered ultimately concerns created and centered ultimately concerns about basic security and survival once about basic security and survival once about basic security and survival once again as was the case for so many years again as was the case for so many years again as was the case for so many years in these countries.

in these countries. in these countries. In fact, drones had swarmed and shut In fact, drones had swarmed and shut In fact, drones had swarmed and shut down the Copenhagen airport just hours down the Copenhagen airport just hours down the Copenhagen airport just hours as I left. as I left. as I left. An authoritarian axis between Russia, An authoritarian axis between Russia, An authoritarian axis between Russia, China, and North Korea could put much of China, and North Korea could put much of China, and North Korea could put much of the democratic secular West in imminent the democratic secular West in imminent the democratic secular West in imminent danger. danger. danger. In light of that threat, could In light of that threat, could In light of that threat, could Christianity remind these countries why Christianity remind these countries why Christianity remind these countries why it's worth defending themselves and it's worth defending themselves and it's worth defending themselves and their weaker brothers? Could their their weaker brothers? Could their their weaker brothers? Could their historic faith bring unity to resolve historic faith bring unity to resolve historic faith bring unity to resolve and to meet this challenge, whatever the and to meet this challenge, whatever the and to meet this challenge, whatever the cost, whatever the burden they need to cost, whatever the burden they need to cost, whatever the burden they need to bear. bear. bear. As I think about these three threats to As I think about these three threats to As I think about these three threats to secularism and opportunities for secularism and opportunities for secularism and opportunities for Christianity, especially focused on Christianity, especially focused on Christianity, especially focused on secular Europe, I think once again about secular Europe, I think once again about secular Europe, I think once again about basic reality. basic reality. basic reality. Christianity is the way and the truth Christianity is the way and the truth Christianity is the way and the truth and the life. It is the ultimate reality and the life. It is the ultimate reality and the life. It is the ultimate reality whether or not anyone acknowledges the whether or not anyone acknowledges the whether or not anyone acknowledges the lordship of Christ.

lordship of Christ. lordship of Christ. But in the secular west, But in the secular west, But in the secular west, our biggest hindrance is is the lack of our biggest hindrance is is the lack of our biggest hindrance is is the lack of a perceived or felt need by our a perceived or felt need by our a perceived or felt need by our neighbors. The lack of an imminent neighbors. The lack of an imminent neighbors. The lack of an imminent threat that wakes them up from a secular threat that wakes them up from a secular threat that wakes them up from a secular slumber. slumber. slumber. It's the experience of preaching Romans It's the experience of preaching Romans It's the experience of preaching Romans 8 and everyone else is out there 8 and everyone else is out there 8 and everyone else is out there enjoying a football match. Secular enjoying a football match. Secular enjoying a football match. Secular secularism in Europe, it's like an secularism in Europe, it's like an secularism in Europe, it's like an animal in a habitat with no known animal in a habitat with no known animal in a habitat with no known predators. predators. predators. that Protestantism has given them these that Protestantism has given them these that Protestantism has given them these peaceful and prosperous cities. peaceful and prosperous cities. peaceful and prosperous cities. There's no sense of what's lost if the There's no sense of what's lost if the There's no sense of what's lost if the churches are empty because after all, churches are empty because after all, churches are empty because after all, the buses still run on time, the food the buses still run on time, the food the buses still run on time, the food still shows up on the table, the welfare still shows up on the table, the welfare still shows up on the table, the welfare state still provides. state still provides. state still provides. But that need could become more widely But that need could become more widely But that need could become more widely felt under any or all of these three felt under any or all of these three felt under any or all of these three threats?

threats? threats? And if so, And if so, And if so, how will we respond as Christians? how will we respond as Christians? how will we respond as Christians? As proud Protestants, I hope we'll As proud Protestants, I hope we'll As proud Protestants, I hope we'll respond by believing that the gospel respond by believing that the gospel respond by believing that the gospel brings transformation to individuals and brings transformation to individuals and brings transformation to individuals and societies. It's done it before. We societies. It's done it before. We societies. It's done it before. We believe that it can do it. You can do it believe that it can do it. You can do it believe that it can do it. You can do it again. Like the reformers, we're not again. Like the reformers, we're not again. Like the reformers, we're not going to be content to settle for going to be content to settle for going to be content to settle for outward conformity. outward conformity. outward conformity. And I hope we will also respond by not And I hope we will also respond by not And I hope we will also respond by not trying to resolve that tension between trying to resolve that tension between trying to resolve that tension between the church and culture and political the church and culture and political the church and culture and political authorities. authorities. authorities. Do not fall for the establishment Do not fall for the establishment Do not fall for the establishment shortcut. shortcut. shortcut. It's another dead end. It's another dead end. It's another dead end. Jesus told us to expect tribulation and Jesus told us to expect tribulation and Jesus told us to expect tribulation and he promised to carry us through any he promised to carry us through any he promised to carry us through any [music] trials. [music] trials. [music] trials. He will not fail us in the secular He will not fail us in the secular He will not fail us in the secular [music] west either.

Thanks for listening to this episode of Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospelbound. For more interviews [music] Gospelbound. For more interviews [music] Gospelbound. For more interviews [music] and to sign up for my newsletter, head and to sign up for my newsletter, head and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. over to tgc.org/gosspelbound. org/gosspelbound. org/gosspelbound. org/gosspelbound. Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your Rate and review Gospelbound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. [music] join the conversation. [music] join the conversation. [music] Until next time, remember, when we're Until next time, remember, when we're Until next time, remember, when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.