How to Talk About Jesus in a Post-Christian Age (with Glen Scrivener) [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 50]

If you're ready to go deeper in If you're ready to go deeper in theology, Southern Seminary's PhD theology, Southern Seminary's PhD theology, Southern Seminary's PhD programs were built for you. With programs were built for you. With programs were built for you. With flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to flexible formats from fully online to modular to in-person, Southern makes modular to in-person, Southern makes modular to in-person, Southern makes serious doctoral level theological serious doctoral level theological serious doctoral level theological training accessible to the pastor called training accessible to the pastor called training accessible to the pastor called to bring the depth of God's word to to bring the depth of God's word to to bring the depth of God's word to God's people. Study with faculty God's people. Study with faculty God's people. Study with faculty committed to strengthening the church committed to strengthening the church committed to strengthening the church and bring that depth back to the people and bring that depth back to the people and bring that depth back to the people you lead. Visit sbts.edu/ edu/phd you lead. Visit sbts.edu/ edu/phd you lead. Visit sbts.edu/ edu/phd to learn more. I'm desperate to blend in and so I'm I'm I'm desperate to blend in and so I'm I'm going to not talk about Jesus. going to not talk about Jesus. going to not talk about Jesus. Um because the moment I talk about Um because the moment I talk about Um because the moment I talk about Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of difference into the relationship. difference into the relationship. difference into the relationship. Whereas I think in the New Testament, Whereas I think in the New Testament, Whereas I think in the New Testament, it's the other way around. in the New it's the other way around. in the New it's the other way around. in the New Testament, my life is meant to be so Testament, my life is meant to be so Testament, my life is meant to be so weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ that my friend is like, "Okay, you are that my friend is like, "Okay, you are that my friend is like, "Okay, you are really, really weird. Say something.

really, really weird. Say something. really, really weird. Say something. Relieve the tension for me. Why is it Relieve the tension for me. Why is it Relieve the tension for me. Why is it that you do the things that you do?" And that you do the things that you do?" And that you do the things that you do?" And at that point, my Christian witness at that point, my Christian witness at that point, my Christian witness actually relieves the tension rather actually relieves the tension rather actually relieves the tension rather than introduces the tension. Welcome back friends to the Everyday Welcome back friends to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Pastor, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition on the nuts and bolts of Coalition on the nuts and bolts of Coalition on the nuts and bolts of ministry. I'm Matt Smith and I'm Luke ministry. I'm Matt Smith and I'm Luke ministry. I'm Matt Smith and I'm Luke Duncan Duncan Duncan >> and we're joined today by our friend >> and we're joined today by our friend >> and we're joined today by our friend Glenn Scrivener. Uh Glenn is an an Glenn Scrivener. Uh Glenn is an an Glenn Scrivener. Uh Glenn is an an evangelist from Australia who lives in evangelist from Australia who lives in evangelist from Australia who lives in the UK. He's the director and evangelist the UK. He's the director and evangelist the UK. He's the director and evangelist at Speak Life, an organization that at Speak Life, an organization that at Speak Life, an organization that exists to revive Christians, resource exists to revive Christians, resource exists to revive Christians, resource the church, and reach the world with the the church, and reach the world with the the church, and reach the world with the good news of Jesus. He's also the author good news of Jesus. He's also the author good news of Jesus. He's also the author of several books, including The Air We of several books, including The Air We of several books, including The Air We Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Breathe: How We All Came to Believe in Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Freedom, Kindness, Progress, and Equality, published by The Good Book Equality, published by The Good Book Equality, published by The Good Book Company in 2022. And I blurbed that book Company in 2022. And I blurbed that book Company in 2022. And I blurbed that book a few years ago and I think I said a few years ago and I think I said a few years ago and I think I said something like it was one of the most something like it was one of the most something like it was one of the most important books I had read in years and important books I had read in years and important books I had read in years and a few years later now I can still say a few years later now I can still say a few years later now I can still say that remains true. I'm so grateful for that remains true. I'm so grateful for that remains true. I'm so grateful for Glenn and his writing ministry and his Glenn and his writing ministry and his Glenn and his writing ministry and his speaking ministry over the years. And um speaking ministry over the years. And um speaking ministry over the years. And um on my very short list of YouTube on my very short list of YouTube on my very short list of YouTube channels that I follow faithfully is his channels that I follow faithfully is his channels that I follow faithfully is his ministry speak life. Uh so before we ministry speak life. Uh so before we ministry speak life. Uh so before we dive in Glenn first of all welcome.

dive in Glenn first of all welcome. dive in Glenn first of all welcome. Thanks for joining us. Thank you for Thanks for joining us. Thank you for Thanks for joining us. Thank you for having me. having me. having me. >> Tell us a brief bit about yourself for >> Tell us a brief bit about yourself for >> Tell us a brief bit about yourself for pastors who are listening who may not be pastors who are listening who may not be pastors who are listening who may not be familiar with you or your ministry. familiar with you or your ministry. familiar with you or your ministry. >> So, I am Emma's husband. I'm Ruby and >> So, I am Emma's husband. I'm Ruby and >> So, I am Emma's husband. I'm Ruby and JJ's dad. I'm uh ordained uh an ordained JJ's dad. I'm uh ordained uh an ordained JJ's dad. I'm uh ordained uh an ordained minister, but my day job is to work for minister, but my day job is to work for minister, but my day job is to work for Speak Life to yeah write and podcast and Speak Life to yeah write and podcast and Speak Life to yeah write and podcast and YouTube and speak about Jesus in lots of YouTube and speak about Jesus in lots of YouTube and speak about Jesus in lots of different ways. So, that's me. different ways. So, that's me. different ways. So, that's me. >> And tell us a bit about 321. What is >> And tell us a bit about 321. What is >> And tell us a bit about 321. What is that? So 321 was uh a way of explaining that? So 321 was uh a way of explaining that? So 321 was uh a way of explaining the gospel in a blog post back in sort the gospel in a blog post back in sort the gospel in a blog post back in sort of 2011 I think. And uh I remember it of 2011 I think. And uh I remember it of 2011 I think. And uh I remember it was Kevin D. Young actually came out was Kevin D. Young actually came out was Kevin D. Young actually came out with a blog post on TGC. Uh it was with a blog post on TGC. Uh it was with a blog post on TGC. Uh it was something like if I was teaching something like if I was teaching something like if I was teaching worldview I would teach 1 2 3 4. And one worldview I would teach 1 2 3 4. And one worldview I would teach 1 2 3 4. And one was there is a god. Two uh there's the was there is a god. Two uh there's the was there is a god. Two uh there's the creator creature distinction. Three was creator creature distinction. Three was creator creature distinction. Three was the trinity. And four was I forget what the trinity. And four was I forget what the trinity. And four was I forget what four was. But I I remember sort of four was. But I I remember sort of four was. But I I remember sort of listening to that and thinking, what listening to that and thinking, what listening to that and thinking, what would it look like to begin with the would it look like to begin with the would it look like to begin with the triune God? Well, I guess you'd have to triune God? Well, I guess you'd have to triune God? Well, I guess you'd have to start with three and then you'd have to start with three and then you'd have to start with three and then you'd have to go backwards. So, what would two be? And go backwards. So, what would two be? And go backwards. So, what would two be? And I started to think about the two Adams I started to think about the two Adams I started to think about the two Adams cuz I was doing a lot of work in in kind cuz I was doing a lot of work in in kind cuz I was doing a lot of work in in kind of Irenaeus and Athanasius and and of Irenaeus and Athanasius and and of Irenaeus and Athanasius and and Christ as the second Adam uh was really Christ as the second Adam uh was really Christ as the second Adam uh was really gripping me at that at that time. And gripping me at that at that time. And gripping me at that at that time. And so, yeah, the world is shaped by two so, yeah, the world is shaped by two so, yeah, the world is shaped by two representatives, Adam and Jesus. And representatives, Adam and Jesus. And representatives, Adam and Jesus. And then what would one be? Well, then what would one be? Well, then what would one be? Well, beautifully, one gets to be oneness with beautifully, one gets to be oneness with beautifully, one gets to be oneness with Jesus. uh you're born one with Adam. The Jesus. uh you're born one with Adam. The Jesus. uh you're born one with Adam. The gospel is be be born again. Be one with gospel is be be born again. Be one with gospel is be be born again. Be one with Christ. And then you get his father as Christ. And then you get his father as Christ. And then you get his father as your father and his spirit is your your father and his spirit is your your father and his spirit is your spirit and his future is your future. So

spirit and his future is your future. So spirit and his future is your future. So uh that's kind of a framework I've been uh that's kind of a framework I've been uh that's kind of a framework I've been using to teach the gospel, I guess, ever using to teach the gospel, I guess, ever using to teach the gospel, I guess, ever since then. So 15 years old now. And since then. So 15 years old now. And since then. So 15 years old now. And there's a there's a course that people there's a there's a course that people there's a there's a course that people can do online. There's about 40,000 can do online. There's about 40,000 can do online. There's about 40,000 people doing it online at 321course.com. people doing it online at 321course.com. people doing it online at 321course.com. It's completely free. People can go and It's completely free. People can go and It's completely free. People can go and and do that for themselves. And there and do that for themselves. And there and do that for themselves. And there are about a thousand churches uh mainly are about a thousand churches uh mainly are about a thousand churches uh mainly in the UK but also around the world and in the UK but also around the world and in the UK but also around the world and and quite a few in in the states that and quite a few in in the states that and quite a few in in the states that are running as a four-week course where are running as a four-week course where are running as a four-week course where people can be introduced to Jesus and people can be introduced to Jesus and people can be introduced to Jesus and then Jesus's vision for God, the world, then Jesus's vision for God, the world, then Jesus's vision for God, the world, and you. God's threatened, the world's and you. God's threatened, the world's and you. God's threatened, the world's tuness, and your oneness. Yeah, I love tuness, and your oneness. Yeah, I love tuness, and your oneness. Yeah, I love that. I read your your book 321 many that. I read your your book 321 many that. I read your your book 321 many years ago and then have since um kind of years ago and then have since um kind of years ago and then have since um kind of dabbled in the course and recommended it dabbled in the course and recommended it dabbled in the course and recommended it to folks in my own church. So, um, to folks in my own church. So, um, to folks in my own church. So, um, thanks for mentioning that. You said thanks for mentioning that. You said thanks for mentioning that. You said it's 321course.com. it's 321course.com. it's 321course.com. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> That's right. Yeah. >> Okay. Wonderful. And and and that's a >> Okay. Wonderful. And and and that's a >> Okay. Wonderful. And and and that's a that's a ministry of Speak Life. Um, in that's a ministry of Speak Life. Um, in that's a ministry of Speak Life. Um, in terms of helping pastors who are terms of helping pastors who are terms of helping pastors who are listening to this, ordinary pastors, listening to this, ordinary pastors, listening to this, ordinary pastors, it's Glenn, this is called the everyday it's Glenn, this is called the everyday it's Glenn, this is called the everyday pastor. Uh, understanding uh, help them pastor. Uh, understanding uh, help them pastor. Uh, understanding uh, help them understand the cultural moment. I'm just understand the cultural moment. I'm just understand the cultural moment. I'm just curious given your context, an curious given your context, an curious given your context, an Australian ministering in secular Australian ministering in secular Australian ministering in secular Britain through, you know, church media, Britain through, you know, church media, Britain through, you know, church media, public evangelism, how what has that public evangelism, how what has that public evangelism, how what has that vantage point taught you about how vantage point taught you about how vantage point taught you about how cultures really change and maybe how cultures really change and maybe how cultures really change and maybe how pastors miss can misread the moment pastors miss can misread the moment pastors miss can misread the moment they're in? Well, I guess being an they're in? Well, I guess being an they're in? Well, I guess being an Australian in the UK is an interesting Australian in the UK is an interesting Australian in the UK is an interesting vantage point because I'm I'm I'm not a vantage point because I'm I'm I'm not a vantage point because I'm I'm I'm not a UK citizen, but I I kind of breathe the

UK citizen, but I I kind of breathe the UK citizen, but I I kind of breathe the same air and and so same air and and so same air and and so >> was that a book plug just then? >> You've got the book plugs covered for >> You've got the book plugs covered for me. Stealthy. me. Stealthy. me. Stealthy. >> I don't need to. >> I don't need to. >> I don't need to. >> But um I mean I I actually do say in the >> But um I mean I I actually do say in the >> But um I mean I I actually do say in the book the the air we breathe. I mean, book the the air we breathe. I mean, book the the air we breathe. I mean, it's it's interesting that when I fly it's it's interesting that when I fly it's it's interesting that when I fly back into Australia, I do smell the back into Australia, I do smell the back into Australia, I do smell the difference of the of the air cuz you've difference of the of the air cuz you've difference of the of the air cuz you've got the eucalyptus trees, the gum trees got the eucalyptus trees, the gum trees got the eucalyptus trees, the gum trees are just mentholating the air the whole are just mentholating the air the whole are just mentholating the air the whole time. It's like you've got a cough syrup time. It's like you've got a cough syrup time. It's like you've got a cough syrup on the carried upon the breeze. It on the carried upon the breeze. It on the carried upon the breeze. It smells so sweet to go back into into smells so sweet to go back into into smells so sweet to go back into into Sydney, but you don't recognize the Sydney, but you don't recognize the Sydney, but you don't recognize the atmosphere of Sydney when you live in atmosphere of Sydney when you live in atmosphere of Sydney when you live in London and vice versa. And there is London and vice versa. And there is London and vice versa. And there is something about living in a different something about living in a different something about living in a different culture that means you always feel a culture that means you always feel a culture that means you always feel a little bit away from home. But I guess little bit away from home. But I guess little bit away from home. But I guess as Christians we we know what that is. as Christians we we know what that is. as Christians we we know what that is. You know when Paul writes to the You know when Paul writes to the You know when Paul writes to the Colossians they are in Christ and Colossians they are in Christ and Colossians they are in Christ and they're in Colasse and and I guess they're in Colasse and and I guess they're in Colasse and and I guess wherever you are there is your zip code wherever you are there is your zip code wherever you are there is your zip code and you are in Christ. You you are in and you are in Christ. You you are in and you are in Christ. You you are in the the the city in which you live and the the the city in which you live and the the the city in which you live and you are in Christ at the same time. And you are in Christ at the same time. And you are in Christ at the same time. And I guess being cross-cultural I guess being cross-cultural I guess being cross-cultural um means that you are constantly um means that you are constantly um means that you are constantly thinking about differences and people thinking about differences and people thinking about differences and people are constantly striking striking you as are constantly striking striking you as are constantly striking striking you as strange and you're constantly striking strange and you're constantly striking strange and you're constantly striking them as strange. You're a stranger in a them as strange. You're a stranger in a them as strange. You're a stranger in a strange land. Um and so I I I think strange land. Um and so I I I think strange land. Um and so I I I think that's actually helpful to to whatever that's actually helpful to to whatever that's actually helpful to to whatever degree you can as you're scrolling degree you can as you're scrolling degree you can as you're scrolling through your feed. Um, are you able to through your feed. Um, are you able to through your feed. Um, are you able to experience the world as though you were

experience the world as though you were experience the world as though you were a foreigner because you are in fact a a foreigner because you are in fact a a foreigner because you are in fact a foreigner? And and are you able to sit foreigner? And and are you able to sit foreigner? And and are you able to sit as loose as you can sit to uh the fact as loose as you can sit to uh the fact as loose as you can sit to uh the fact that you live in Colossi or the fact that you live in Colossi or the fact that you live in Colossi or the fact that you live in London? Can you sit as that you live in London? Can you sit as that you live in London? Can you sit as loose as you can to that and and try and loose as you can to that and and try and loose as you can to that and and try and look at news events or whatever um look at news events or whatever um look at news events or whatever um through the lens of Jesus? I I think um through the lens of Jesus? I I think um through the lens of Jesus? I I think um I think we're kind of called to to do I think we're kind of called to to do I think we're kind of called to to do that really um in order to be all people that really um in order to be all people that really um in order to be all people all things to all all people that some all things to all all people that some all things to all all people that some might be saved. So yeah, being being might be saved. So yeah, being being might be saved. So yeah, being being cross-cultural is a particular thing cross-cultural is a particular thing cross-cultural is a particular thing that I do, but I think it's actually that I do, but I think it's actually that I do, but I think it's actually universal experience of all Christians, universal experience of all Christians, universal experience of all Christians, >> right? And in terms of the the book >> right? And in terms of the the book >> right? And in terms of the the book we've we've mentioned, The Air We we've we've mentioned, The Air We we've we've mentioned, The Air We Breathe, um talk a bit about your burden Breathe, um talk a bit about your burden Breathe, um talk a bit about your burden in that project and um how you're trying in that project and um how you're trying in that project and um how you're trying to help everyday secular people in your to help everyday secular people in your to help everyday secular people in your context see that they're already context see that they're already context see that they're already breathing Christianish air. breathing Christianish air. breathing Christianish air. >> Yeah. Christianish air. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> Yeah. Christianish air. Yeah. Yeah. So, >> Yeah. Christianish air. Yeah. Yeah. So, I mean, we're living in a post-Christian I mean, we're living in a post-Christian I mean, we're living in a post-Christian culture, but I think it's post-Christian culture, but I think it's post-Christian culture, but I think it's post-Christian in the same way that in the same way that in the same way that post-industrialization post-industrialization post-industrialization is is a thing. um you only get to a is is a thing. um you only get to a is is a thing. um you only get to a post-industrialized culture by going post-industrialized culture by going post-industrialized culture by going through industrialization and and that through industrialization and and that through industrialization and and that industrialization has marked that industrialization has marked that industrialization has marked that culture forever. And I think culture forever. And I think culture forever. And I think Christianity has has marked us if you're Christianity has has marked us if you're Christianity has has marked us if you're in the Anglosphere. Um in the Anglosphere. Um in the Anglosphere. Um a particular brand of Western Protestant a particular brand of Western Protestant a particular brand of Western Protestant Christianity has has marked you in a Christianity has has marked you in a Christianity has has marked you in a certain way even if you've never shown certain way even if you've never shown certain way even if you've never shown up in church. And so my my big burden is

up in church. And so my my big burden is up in church. And so my my big burden is with my secular friends who I I remember with my secular friends who I I remember with my secular friends who I I remember a friend who I went to college with. She a friend who I went to college with. She a friend who I went to college with. She once said to me, Glenn, I could never be once said to me, Glenn, I could never be once said to me, Glenn, I could never be a believer. And I I think she kind of a believer. And I I think she kind of a believer. And I I think she kind of she looks she looks at me as somebody she looks she looks at me as somebody she looks she looks at me as somebody who is a faith head. And at times she is who is a faith head. And at times she is who is a faith head. And at times she is jealous and she thinks I've hit the jealous and she thinks I've hit the jealous and she thinks I've hit the jackpot. At times she looks at me and jackpot. At times she looks at me and jackpot. At times she looks at me and she thinks that she's dodged a bullet. she thinks that she's dodged a bullet. she thinks that she's dodged a bullet. Um, and she doesn't want the sort of the Um, and she doesn't want the sort of the Um, and she doesn't want the sort of the sort of the thing that afflicts me sort of the thing that afflicts me sort of the thing that afflicts me that's called faith, but sometimes she's that's called faith, but sometimes she's that's called faith, but sometimes she's jealous of it. Um, but she thinks of jealous of it. Um, but she thinks of jealous of it. Um, but she thinks of herself as a neutral. She thinks of herself as a neutral. She thinks of herself as a neutral. She thinks of herself as somebody who just navigates herself as somebody who just navigates herself as somebody who just navigates the world via reason and and evidence. the world via reason and and evidence. the world via reason and and evidence. And one of my burdens in the air we And one of my burdens in the air we And one of my burdens in the air we breathe is just to show her that um if breathe is just to show her that um if breathe is just to show her that um if she believes in equality, compassion, she believes in equality, compassion, she believes in equality, compassion, consent, enlightenment, science, consent, enlightenment, science, consent, enlightenment, science, freedom, progress, if she believes in freedom, progress, if she believes in freedom, progress, if she believes in human dignity, if you if she believes in human dignity, if you if she believes in human dignity, if you if she believes in human rights, um she is leaning into human rights, um she is leaning into human rights, um she is leaning into truths that cannot be demonstrated truths that cannot be demonstrated truths that cannot be demonstrated logically or or or you know proved in in logically or or or you know proved in in logically or or or you know proved in in a laboratory. She is a believer. And not a laboratory. She is a believer. And not a laboratory. She is a believer. And not only is she a believer, she happens to only is she a believer, she happens to only is she a believer, she happens to believe in some things that have been believe in some things that have been believe in some things that have been marked by the Jesus revolution in some marked by the Jesus revolution in some marked by the Jesus revolution in some very profound ways. If she believes in very profound ways. If she believes in very profound ways. If she believes in human rights, for instance, she believes human rights, for instance, she believes human rights, for instance, she believes in some quite Christianish things. But in some quite Christianish things. But in some quite Christianish things. But all the while she tells me that she's all the while she tells me that she's all the while she tells me that she's godless and that this is a godless godless and that this is a godless godless and that this is a godless universe. And really with the air we universe. And really with the air we universe. And really with the air we breathe, I'm trying to sort of create breathe, I'm trying to sort of create breathe, I'm trying to sort of create some some cognitive dissonance in my some some cognitive dissonance in my some some cognitive dissonance in my friends so that they they they recognize

friends so that they they they recognize friends so that they they they recognize that the humanist ideals that they might that the humanist ideals that they might that the humanist ideals that they might have have have fit a lot better in the Jesus uh story fit a lot better in the Jesus uh story fit a lot better in the Jesus uh story than they fit in the atheistic story than they fit in the atheistic story than they fit in the atheistic story that that that they say they believe. that that that they say they believe. that that that they say they believe. And then by the end of the book, I'm I'm And then by the end of the book, I'm I'm And then by the end of the book, I'm I'm asking them to choose. You know, uh, asking them to choose. You know, uh, asking them to choose. You know, uh, this is something that Tom Holland has this is something that Tom Holland has this is something that Tom Holland has been arguing for a long time. Even been arguing for a long time. Even been arguing for a long time. Even recently, Bartman, uh, is admitting at recently, Bartman, uh, is admitting at recently, Bartman, uh, is admitting at least part of the of the Christian story least part of the of the Christian story least part of the of the Christian story in this way. Uh, let me turn the in this way. Uh, let me turn the in this way. Uh, let me turn the question around a little bit. You, question around a little bit. You, question around a little bit. You, you're talking about secular folks and you're talking about secular folks and you're talking about secular folks and helping them realize that. What what do helping them realize that. What what do helping them realize that. What what do you think believers you think believers you think believers ministering to or seeking to reach out ministering to or seeking to reach out ministering to or seeking to reach out to people in this secular environment to people in this secular environment to people in this secular environment need to be aware of themselves? And I'm need to be aware of themselves? And I'm need to be aware of themselves? And I'm I'm sure you've thought about this from I'm sure you've thought about this from I'm sure you've thought about this from the standpoint of Australia and Britain. the standpoint of Australia and Britain. the standpoint of Australia and Britain. I lived in Britain 354 years ago. Things I lived in Britain 354 years ago. Things I lived in Britain 354 years ago. Things have really changed in that 35 or 40 have really changed in that 35 or 40 have really changed in that 35 or 40 years ago, even as they had changed years ago, even as they had changed years ago, even as they had changed significantly 20 years before I got significantly 20 years before I got significantly 20 years before I got there. What are the things that we need there. What are the things that we need there. What are the things that we need to be aware of about ourselves, etc., as to be aware of about ourselves, etc., as to be aware of about ourselves, etc., as we seek to talk to secular folks around we seek to talk to secular folks around we seek to talk to secular folks around us?

us? us? Well, Romans 1:16, you know, I'm not Well, Romans 1:16, you know, I'm not Well, Romans 1:16, you know, I'm not ashamed of the gospel, says Paul, when ashamed of the gospel, says Paul, when ashamed of the gospel, says Paul, when he goes to um well, when when he's he goes to um well, when when he's he goes to um well, when when he's writing to a bedraggled mob of of writing to a bedraggled mob of of writing to a bedraggled mob of of Christians who are in the great empire, Christians who are in the great empire, Christians who are in the great empire, they are in the eternal city of Rome they are in the eternal city of Rome they are in the eternal city of Rome surrounded by, you know, the greatest surrounded by, you know, the greatest surrounded by, you know, the greatest civilization um that that has ever civilization um that that has ever civilization um that that has ever visited the earth. And Paul's like, visited the earth. And Paul's like, visited the earth. And Paul's like, like, I'm not ashamed of this message. like, I'm not ashamed of this message. like, I'm not ashamed of this message. And the only reason why he would say And the only reason why he would say And the only reason why he would say that is because well, of course you're that is because well, of course you're that is because well, of course you're tempted to be ashamed of being a tempted to be ashamed of being a tempted to be ashamed of being a Christian. Of course you're tempted to Christian. Of course you're tempted to Christian. Of course you're tempted to be ashamed of team Jesus. And I think be ashamed of team Jesus. And I think be ashamed of team Jesus. And I think one of the one of the reasons I wrote one of the one of the reasons I wrote one of the one of the reasons I wrote Yeah, we breathe is just to tell Yeah, we breathe is just to tell Yeah, we breathe is just to tell Christians, you do not have to be Christians, you do not have to be Christians, you do not have to be ashamed. You do not have to be ashamed. You do not have to be ashamed. You do not have to be embarrassed by team Jesus. Oh my embarrassed by team Jesus. Oh my embarrassed by team Jesus. Oh my goodness. You you are on uh you are on a goodness. You you are on uh you are on a goodness. You you are on uh you are on a team that has been the greatest source team that has been the greatest source team that has been the greatest source of blessing for this world. like the the of blessing for this world. like the the of blessing for this world. like the the greatest source of flourishing for for greatest source of flourishing for for greatest source of flourishing for for humanity. If you're interested in humanity. If you're interested in humanity. If you're interested in progressive ideals, well, the the the progressive ideals, well, the the the progressive ideals, well, the the the institution institution institution that has abolished the slave trade, the that has abolished the slave trade, the that has abolished the slave trade, the institution that has has abolished institution that has has abolished institution that has has abolished pedarasti, the institution that has pedarasti, the institution that has pedarasti, the institution that has abolished infanticide and has abolished infanticide and has abolished infanticide and has established, you know, schooling the way established, you know, schooling the way established, you know, schooling the way we think of schooling and universities we think of schooling and universities we think of schooling and universities the way we think of universities.

the way we think of universities. the way we think of universities. Charities the way we think of charities. Charities the way we think of charities. Charities the way we think of charities. Orphan care the way we think of orphan Orphan care the way we think of orphan Orphan care the way we think of orphan care. Human rights the way we think of care. Human rights the way we think of care. Human rights the way we think of human rights. Just war the way we think human rights. Just war the way we think human rights. Just war the way we think of just war. Parliaments, universities, of just war. Parliaments, universities, of just war. Parliaments, universities, the modern scientific method. You are on the modern scientific method. You are on the modern scientific method. You are on team Jesus. Like like rejoice. Um we we team Jesus. Like like rejoice. Um we we team Jesus. Like like rejoice. Um we we should not be ashamed of Jesus. We should not be ashamed of Jesus. We should not be ashamed of Jesus. We should not be ashamed of his gospel should not be ashamed of his gospel should not be ashamed of his gospel message. Um, we we are and and that's message. Um, we we are and and that's message. Um, we we are and and that's just so important, I think, in in a just so important, I think, in in a just so important, I think, in in a post-Christian, post-enlightenment world post-Christian, post-enlightenment world post-Christian, post-enlightenment world that is intent on casting Christianity that is intent on casting Christianity that is intent on casting Christianity as the bad guys. Um, it is just so as the bad guys. Um, it is just so as the bad guys. Um, it is just so important, I think, for Christians to important, I think, for Christians to important, I think, for Christians to say, "Hang on, say, "Hang on, say, "Hang on, can we just can we just do a little can we just can we just do a little can we just can we just do a little reality check here?" And I think one of reality check here?" And I think one of reality check here?" And I think one of the big um responses that people have the big um responses that people have the big um responses that people have made to the book, Christians have been made to the book, Christians have been made to the book, Christians have been to come up and say, "Actually, um I was to come up and say, "Actually, um I was to come up and say, "Actually, um I was not I was not um I was embarrassed to be not I was not um I was embarrassed to be not I was not um I was embarrassed to be a Christian before I read The Air We a Christian before I read The Air We a Christian before I read The Air We Breathe, and I'm no longer embarrassed." Breathe, and I'm no longer embarrassed." Breathe, and I'm no longer embarrassed." And I think that that will help our And I think that that will help our And I think that that will help our evangelism.

evangelism. evangelism. >> Yeah. And for pastors who are listening, >> Yeah. And for pastors who are listening, >> Yeah. And for pastors who are listening, Glenn, and they love Jesus, that's why Glenn, and they love Jesus, that's why Glenn, and they love Jesus, that's why they got into ministry in the first they got into ministry in the first they got into ministry in the first place. They want to reach lost people, place. They want to reach lost people, place. They want to reach lost people, but the way they were trained in but the way they were trained in but the way they were trained in evangelism was a pretty straightforward evangelism was a pretty straightforward evangelism was a pretty straightforward assumption of belief in God, the reality assumption of belief in God, the reality assumption of belief in God, the reality uh that the person they're talking to is uh that the person they're talking to is uh that the person they're talking to is probably already uh mentally furnished probably already uh mentally furnished probably already uh mentally furnished with the architecture of what needs to with the architecture of what needs to with the architecture of what needs to be understood in terms of the Bible is a be understood in terms of the Bible is a be understood in terms of the Bible is a respected book. the afterlife, heaven, respected book. the afterlife, heaven, respected book. the afterlife, heaven, hell as you know, likely destinations hell as you know, likely destinations hell as you know, likely destinations for humanity. Um, we are in a very for humanity. Um, we are in a very for humanity. Um, we are in a very different context today in the different context today in the different context today in the post-Christian West. How would you help post-Christian West. How would you help post-Christian West. How would you help pastors just even bring them into this pastors just even bring them into this pastors just even bring them into this conversation about cultural narratives? conversation about cultural narratives? conversation about cultural narratives? Because this may seem a bit esoteric to Because this may seem a bit esoteric to Because this may seem a bit esoteric to some pastors, uh, philosophical. How some pastors, uh, philosophical. How some pastors, uh, philosophical. How does this actually, how does thinking does this actually, how does thinking does this actually, how does thinking about cultural narratives and cultural about cultural narratives and cultural about cultural narratives and cultural apologetics actually help them reach apologetics actually help them reach apologetics actually help them reach people for Jesus today? Well, if part of people for Jesus today? Well, if part of people for Jesus today? Well, if part of the proclamation of the gospel is to the proclamation of the gospel is to the proclamation of the gospel is to unmask idols, then I I think you you unmask idols, then I I think you you unmask idols, then I I think you you probably better be acquainted with the probably better be acquainted with the probably better be acquainted with the sort of the idols that that you are sort of the idols that that you are sort of the idols that that you are unmasking. And if the Apostle Paul goes unmasking. And if the Apostle Paul goes unmasking. And if the Apostle Paul goes to Athens and tours around their objects to Athens and tours around their objects to Athens and tours around their objects of worship and is provoked deeply and of worship and is provoked deeply and of worship and is provoked deeply and grieved in his spirit at the sorts of grieved in his spirit at the sorts of grieved in his spirit at the sorts of things that Athenian culture was lording things that Athenian culture was lording things that Athenian culture was lording and orbiting around and giving and orbiting around and giving and orbiting around and giving themselves to and worshiping. Um we are themselves to and worshiping. Um we are themselves to and worshiping. Um we are foolish if we don't think that the

foolish if we don't think that the foolish if we don't think that the modern secular west um is not at least modern secular west um is not at least modern secular west um is not at least as religious as the Athenian you know as religious as the Athenian you know as religious as the Athenian you know classical civilization. Of course we are classical civilization. Of course we are classical civilization. Of course we are orbiting around sacred values. Of orbiting around sacred values. Of orbiting around sacred values. Of course, we are burning incense to and course, we are burning incense to and course, we are burning incense to and giving ourselves to um any number of giving ourselves to um any number of giving ourselves to um any number of different ideals. And I guess in in the different ideals. And I guess in in the different ideals. And I guess in in the book, The Air We Breathe, I'm I'm I'm book, The Air We Breathe, I'm I'm I'm book, The Air We Breathe, I'm I'm I'm trying to name these values, these these trying to name these values, these these trying to name these values, these these highest ideals as things that kind of highest ideals as things that kind of highest ideals as things that kind of set off the tuning fork in in in our in set off the tuning fork in in in our in set off the tuning fork in in in our in our souls, whe whether we're Christians our souls, whe whether we're Christians our souls, whe whether we're Christians or not. And things like equality and or not. And things like equality and or not. And things like equality and compassion and freedom and progress. Um compassion and freedom and progress. Um compassion and freedom and progress. Um the the these things just have a a the the these things just have a a the the these things just have a a religious character to them such that to religious character to them such that to religious character to them such that to go against any of these things is feels go against any of these things is feels go against any of these things is feels like a blasphemy. And if somebody does like a blasphemy. And if somebody does like a blasphemy. And if somebody does blasphem against these highest ideals, blasphem against these highest ideals, blasphem against these highest ideals, they get excommunicated or in other they get excommunicated or in other they get excommunicated or in other words canceled. And so I I guess I'm I'm words canceled. And so I I guess I'm I'm words canceled. And so I I guess I'm I'm just trying to name the religious nature just trying to name the religious nature just trying to name the religious nature of the secular west. And the secular of the secular west. And the secular of the secular west. And the secular west obviously doesn't like being called west obviously doesn't like being called west obviously doesn't like being called religious. Um sorry. uh humanity is religious. Um sorry. uh humanity is religious. Um sorry. uh humanity is uh irreducibly religious and when a uh irreducibly religious and when a uh irreducibly religious and when a gospel comes into a situation whether gospel comes into a situation whether gospel comes into a situation whether it's Elijah it's Elijah it's Elijah um preaching on Mount Carmel um preaching on Mount Carmel um preaching on Mount Carmel whether it's Paul in Athens or whether whether it's Paul in Athens or whether whether it's Paul in Athens or whether it's Glenn Scrivener in London um we are it's Glenn Scrivener in London um we are it's Glenn Scrivener in London um we are we are equally addressing the word of we are equally addressing the word of we are equally addressing the word of the Lord to people who um the Lord to people who um the Lord to people who um to who give their lives to Baal or they

to who give their lives to Baal or they to who give their lives to Baal or they give their lives to Artimus or that they give their lives to Artimus or that they give their lives to Artimus or that they give their lives to um human rights or give their lives to um human rights or give their lives to um human rights or you like like what or progress or you like like what or progress or you like like what or progress or whatever whatever whatever whatever high whatever whatever whatever whatever high whatever whatever whatever whatever high highest ideal there is. Um and so it's highest ideal there is. Um and so it's highest ideal there is. Um and so it's it's just I think it's incumbent on us it's just I think it's incumbent on us it's just I think it's incumbent on us to know what these idols are so that we to know what these idols are so that we to know what these idols are so that we can expose them and show how much more can expose them and show how much more can expose them and show how much more profoundly Jesus answers the questions profoundly Jesus answers the questions profoundly Jesus answers the questions that those idols simply can't. Let's that those idols simply can't. Let's that those idols simply can't. Let's talk about some of those idols uh talk about some of those idols uh talk about some of those idols uh particularly in the form of stories that particularly in the form of stories that particularly in the form of stories that shape us. stories we inhabit uh cultural shape us. stories we inhabit uh cultural shape us. stories we inhabit uh cultural narratives. What are some of the main narratives. What are some of the main narratives. What are some of the main cultural stories that pastors ought to cultural stories that pastors ought to cultural stories that pastors ought to be aware of? be aware of? be aware of? >> Well, I think progress or you might say >> Well, I think progress or you might say >> Well, I think progress or you might say progress uh is is a kind of a a a progress uh is is a kind of a a a progress uh is is a kind of a a a narrative. narrative. narrative. >> See, that was a great example of >> See, that was a great example of >> See, that was a great example of contextualization which is really contextualization which is really contextualization which is really important for this conversation. important for this conversation. important for this conversation. >> See, and I I'm not just transatlantic, >> See, and I I'm not just transatlantic, >> See, and I I'm not just transatlantic, I'm trans transient ocean as well. Um so I'm trans transient ocean as well. Um so I'm trans transient ocean as well. Um so yeah, progress as this story of things yeah, progress as this story of things yeah, progress as this story of things are getting better. We are the ones we are getting better. We are the ones we are getting better. We are the ones we we've been waiting for. Um that that we've been waiting for. Um that that we've been waiting for. Um that that idea that tomorrow would be will be idea that tomorrow would be will be idea that tomorrow would be will be better than today but not without you better than today but not without you better than today but not without you know reforming the evils of yesterday.

know reforming the evils of yesterday. know reforming the evils of yesterday. Um I think that just goes very very Um I think that just goes very very Um I think that just goes very very deeply deeply deeply >> and thank God we're or or thank >> and thank God we're or or thank >> and thank God we're or or thank ourselves that we're not like those ourselves that we're not like those ourselves that we're not like those benided people from the past. So when benided people from the past. So when benided people from the past. So when you say we are the ones that we've been you say we are the ones that we've been you say we are the ones that we've been waiting for, you're basically saying we waiting for, you're basically saying we waiting for, you're basically saying we are the messiah, right? Um so there have are the messiah, right? Um so there have are the messiah, right? Um so there have been there have been many different been there have been many different been there have been many different presidents who have had messianic presidents who have had messianic presidents who have had messianic complexes. Okay. Right. There there are complexes. Okay. Right. There there are complexes. Okay. Right. There there are many different ways of having a many different ways of having a many different ways of having a messianic complex in which you cast messianic complex in which you cast messianic complex in which you cast yourself as yeah the the one that yourself as yeah the the one that yourself as yeah the the one that history has been waiting for or that we history has been waiting for or that we history has been waiting for or that we are the ones that that history has been are the ones that that history has been are the ones that that history has been waiting for. And you know there there is waiting for. And you know there there is waiting for. And you know there there is a genealogy of ideas behind this. Um a genealogy of ideas behind this. Um a genealogy of ideas behind this. Um it's obviously a very scriptural idea it's obviously a very scriptural idea it's obviously a very scriptural idea you know from page one of the Bible and you know from page one of the Bible and you know from page one of the Bible and there was evening and there was morning there was evening and there was morning there was evening and there was morning the first day right and even within the the first day right and even within the the first day right and even within the first chapter of the Bible you you go first chapter of the Bible you you go first chapter of the Bible you you go from simple things to to very grand from simple things to to very grand from simple things to to very grand things as the week develops. um you move things as the week develops. um you move things as the week develops. um you move you know in the whole narrative of you know in the whole narrative of you know in the whole narrative of scripture from a garden to a garden city scripture from a garden to a garden city scripture from a garden to a garden city but not without you know passing through but not without you know passing through but not without you know passing through a deep valley of shadow and the Lord a deep valley of shadow and the Lord a deep valley of shadow and the Lord Jesus himself enters into that dark Jesus himself enters into that dark Jesus himself enters into that dark valley through the cross and then to the valley through the cross and then to the valley through the cross and then to the resurrection and so it is a profoundly resurrection and so it is a profoundly resurrection and so it is a profoundly biblical notion that tomorrow will be biblical notion that tomorrow will be biblical notion that tomorrow will be better than today. Um it's a profoundly better than today. Um it's a profoundly better than today. Um it's a profoundly hopeful scriptural idea that history is hopeful scriptural idea that history is hopeful scriptural idea that history is heading somewhere. um that that it is heading somewhere. um that that it is heading somewhere. um that that it is not a circle as so many, you know, not a circle as so many, you know, not a circle as so many, you know, Eastern religions might might uh

Eastern religions might might uh Eastern religions might might uh characterize it as. It's not simply an characterize it as. It's not simply an characterize it as. It's not simply an arrow down, a descent from a golden age arrow down, a descent from a golden age arrow down, a descent from a golden age and and now we're sort of uh much worse and and now we're sort of uh much worse and and now we're sort of uh much worse off than we were. The the idea of off than we were. The the idea of off than we were. The the idea of onwards and upwards is a profoundly onwards and upwards is a profoundly onwards and upwards is a profoundly Christian idea. And this is this is just Christian idea. And this is this is just Christian idea. And this is this is just so baked into our secular friends that so baked into our secular friends that so baked into our secular friends that not only are things getting better in a not only are things getting better in a not only are things getting better in a in a secularization in a secularization in a secularization um direction, but also that the church um direction, but also that the church um direction, but also that the church have always been the bad guys, they've have always been the bad guys, they've have always been the bad guys, they've always been like holding us back. And so always been like holding us back. And so always been like holding us back. And so I I think unmasking this particular idol I I think unmasking this particular idol I I think unmasking this particular idol is is really valuable. H how how were is is really valuable. H how how were is is really valuable. H how how were how are some of the ways that you would how are some of the ways that you would how are some of the ways that you would counsel Christians, pastors, counsel Christians, pastors, counsel Christians, pastors, seminarians, professors to have that seminarians, professors to have that seminarians, professors to have that kind of conversation about the issue of kind of conversation about the issue of kind of conversation about the issue of progress? progress? progress? >> I guess if if the subject comes up, you >> I guess if if the subject comes up, you >> I guess if if the subject comes up, you can press into it and and just sort of can press into it and and just sort of can press into it and and just sort of ask questions like, do you think your ask questions like, do you think your ask questions like, do you think your moral fiber is greater than the moral moral fiber is greater than the moral moral fiber is greater than the moral fiber of someone from the 13th century fiber of someone from the 13th century fiber of someone from the 13th century or from the fifth century BC? Um what or from the fifth century BC? Um what or from the fifth century BC? Um what what is it about your your heart, your what is it about your your heart, your what is it about your your heart, your Are you are you a more virtuous person Are you are you a more virtuous person Are you are you a more virtuous person than someone who sailed on the than someone who sailed on the than someone who sailed on the Mayflower? Are you really? Are you Are Mayflower? Are you really? Are you Are Mayflower? Are you really? Are you Are you um I'm sure if you went into a time you um I'm sure if you went into a time you um I'm sure if you went into a time machine and went back to the 17th machine and went back to the 17th machine and went back to the 17th century, you could probably impress century, you could probably impress century, you could probably impress people with your iPhone. I I'm not sure people with your iPhone. I I'm not sure people with your iPhone. I I'm not sure you would necessarily impress them with you would necessarily impress them with you would necessarily impress them with your moral character. Um and and just your moral character. Um and and just your moral character. Um and and just just unearthing that that sense of just unearthing that that sense of just unearthing that that sense of chronological snobbery that that that is chronological snobbery that that that is chronological snobbery that that that is really baked into us in in the west is

really baked into us in in the west is really baked into us in in the west is is quite important I think at at that is quite important I think at at that is quite important I think at at that stage. stage. stage. >> Do you think do you think inclusivity is >> Do you think do you think inclusivity is >> Do you think do you think inclusivity is that which we view ourselves primarily that which we view ourselves primarily that which we view ourselves primarily morally superior in in relation to our morally superior in in relation to our morally superior in in relation to our forebears? forebears? forebears? So that the value of inclusion is the So that the value of inclusion is the So that the value of inclusion is the kind of value that makes us think of the kind of value that makes us think of the kind of value that makes us think of the benited past when they they actually had benited past when they they actually had benited past when they they actually had yeah they had thick black lines and you yeah they had thick black lines and you yeah they had thick black lines and you were either in or out of things and were either in or out of things and were either in or out of things and nowadays we have no lines whatsoever and nowadays we have no lines whatsoever and nowadays we have no lines whatsoever and everybody's in and that's better and everybody's in and that's better and everybody's in and that's better and you're like yeah okay how's that working you're like yeah okay how's that working you're like yeah okay how's that working out for us? out for us? out for us? Um yeah I mean on on the value on on the Um yeah I mean on on the value on on the Um yeah I mean on on the value on on the inclusion thing. So there there's inclusion thing. So there there's inclusion thing. So there there's another narrative I think that that another narrative I think that that another narrative I think that that intersects quite interestingly with the intersects quite interestingly with the intersects quite interestingly with the progress one and the the analogy I'm progress one and the the analogy I'm progress one and the the analogy I'm always using for that is look if you always using for that is look if you always using for that is look if you want to come to the scrivener household want to come to the scrivener household want to come to the scrivener household for Christmas you're going to get for Christmas you're going to get for Christmas you're going to get largely a scrivener kind of a Christmas largely a scrivener kind of a Christmas largely a scrivener kind of a Christmas and you might have a tradition from a and you might have a tradition from a and you might have a tradition from a Smithhurst Christmas that's fine you can Smithhurst Christmas that's fine you can Smithhurst Christmas that's fine you can you can maybe bring one one Smith Hurst you can maybe bring one one Smith Hurst you can maybe bring one one Smith Hurst tradition is all you get but you're tradition is all you get but you're tradition is all you get but you're you're going to be happy to sit down you're going to be happy to sit down you're going to be happy to sit down around our table doing our kind of around our table doing our kind of around our table doing our kind of Christmas. Um, and that's and and it's Christmas. Um, and that's and and it's Christmas. Um, and that's and and it's it's great to learn from from the it's great to learn from from the it's great to learn from from the different traditions uh around the different traditions uh around the different traditions uh around the table. But somebody is hosting this table. But somebody is hosting this table. But somebody is hosting this meal. This this this day has a certain meal. This this this day has a certain meal. This this this day has a certain shape to it. It has certain traditions shape to it. It has certain traditions shape to it. It has certain traditions around it. Um there is a meaning to it around it. Um there is a meaning to it around it. Um there is a meaning to it that is already given that you're so that is already given that you're so that is already given that you're so welcome. I want to welcome you around

welcome. I want to welcome you around welcome. I want to welcome you around this table. And that's why I think the this table. And that's why I think the this table. And that's why I think the the word welcome is a much more biblical the word welcome is a much more biblical the word welcome is a much more biblical um word than inclusion. welcome is come um word than inclusion. welcome is come um word than inclusion. welcome is come over to our Christmas, okay? And you can over to our Christmas, okay? And you can over to our Christmas, okay? And you can have Christmas the way that we have have Christmas the way that we have have Christmas the way that we have Christmas and you are so welcome to pull Christmas and you are so welcome to pull Christmas and you are so welcome to pull up a chair the same as everybody else up a chair the same as everybody else up a chair the same as everybody else around our table. Inclusion is a little around our table. Inclusion is a little around our table. Inclusion is a little bit like you show up on on Christmas bit like you show up on on Christmas bit like you show up on on Christmas morning and instead of coming into the morning and instead of coming into the morning and instead of coming into the dining room and having having lunch with dining room and having having lunch with dining room and having having lunch with us all, like you go up to your own room us all, like you go up to your own room us all, like you go up to your own room with a TV dinner and you just watch your with a TV dinner and you just watch your with a TV dinner and you just watch your iPad with your headphones on and you do iPad with your headphones on and you do iPad with your headphones on and you do you. Uh, but we're all under the same you. Uh, but we're all under the same you. Uh, but we're all under the same roof, so I guess that's inclusion, is roof, so I guess that's inclusion, is roof, so I guess that's inclusion, is it? Like, no. No. I think welcome into a it? Like, no. No. I think welcome into a it? Like, no. No. I think welcome into a a thing that is that is already heading a thing that is that is already heading a thing that is that is already heading in a direction that you're so welcome in a direction that you're so welcome in a direction that you're so welcome to. I think I think that's the more to. I think I think that's the more to. I think I think that's the more Christian ideal. Christian ideal. Christian ideal. >> That's good. Well, in an age of identity >> That's good. Well, in an age of identity >> That's good. Well, in an age of identity politics with the fracturing and just politics with the fracturing and just politics with the fracturing and just balkcanization of even people who used balkcanization of even people who used balkcanization of even people who used to be on the same team, uh, and I'm not to be on the same team, uh, and I'm not to be on the same team, uh, and I'm not just talking about within the church, just talking about within the church, just talking about within the church, just in the the broader secular society.

just in the the broader secular society. just in the the broader secular society. I do think that this is an opportunity I do think that this is an opportunity I do think that this is an opportunity for us as Christians to show a more for us as Christians to show a more for us as Christians to show a more excellent way uh because that welcome excellent way uh because that welcome excellent way uh because that welcome has fallen on really hard times in an has fallen on really hard times in an has fallen on really hard times in an age of outrage and division. And so we age of outrage and division. And so we age of outrage and division. And so we have the opportunity without softening have the opportunity without softening have the opportunity without softening the borders of of the gospel message or the borders of of the gospel message or the borders of of the gospel message or the the hard demands of of Jesus Christ the the hard demands of of Jesus Christ the the hard demands of of Jesus Christ of showing that actually following him of showing that actually following him of showing that actually following him in the context of his people is actually in the context of his people is actually in the context of his people is actually the path to the very life you most want. the path to the very life you most want. the path to the very life you most want. >> Right. Yeah. Glenn, you are one of the >> Right. Yeah. Glenn, you are one of the >> Right. Yeah. Glenn, you are one of the contributors to a new uh curriculum from contributors to a new uh curriculum from contributors to a new uh curriculum from TGC called Making Sense of Us. Uh TGC called Making Sense of Us. Uh TGC called Making Sense of Us. Uh exploring six stories that shape how we exploring six stories that shape how we exploring six stories that shape how we live. And this is for small groups. This live. And this is for small groups. This live. And this is for small groups. This is for Sunday school classes. This is is for Sunday school classes. This is is for Sunday school classes. This is for just ordinary believers and for just ordinary believers and for just ordinary believers and discipling relationships. Uh pastors, discipling relationships. Uh pastors, discipling relationships. Uh pastors, you could lead your uh elders through you could lead your uh elders through you could lead your uh elders through this, your staff through this. Um this, your staff through this. Um this, your staff through this. Um essentially there are essentially there are essentially there are uh sessions on various stories that we uh sessions on various stories that we uh sessions on various stories that we live by self happiness science justice live by self happiness science justice live by self happiness science justice liberty and as Glenn was just talking liberty and as Glenn was just talking liberty and as Glenn was just talking about progress and there's a 10 to 15 about progress and there's a 10 to 15 about progress and there's a 10 to 15 minute video segment uh followed by minute video segment uh followed by minute video segment uh followed by opportunities for small groupoup opportunities for small groupoup opportunities for small groupoup discussion. So that's something just to discussion. So that's something just to discussion. So that's something just to be aware of pastors uh maybe take a look be aware of pastors uh maybe take a look be aware of pastors uh maybe take a look at and and put to use in your church.

at and and put to use in your church. at and and put to use in your church. Glenn, is there anything else you want Glenn, is there anything else you want Glenn, is there anything else you want to say about this curriculum given that to say about this curriculum given that to say about this curriculum given that you were a part of creating it? you were a part of creating it? you were a part of creating it? >> Yeah, I I think the the videos uh were >> Yeah, I I think the the videos uh were >> Yeah, I I think the the videos uh were really really well done and I hope that really really well done and I hope that really really well done and I hope that they uh are well used in in churches and they uh are well used in in churches and they uh are well used in in churches and you can get about these things. I I see you can get about these things. I I see you can get about these things. I I see it as a little bit in the Aropagus and it as a little bit in the Aropagus and it as a little bit in the Aropagus and touring around the objects of worship touring around the objects of worship touring around the objects of worship and just getting getting a real sense and just getting getting a real sense and just getting getting a real sense for yeah what it is what it is are for yeah what it is what it is are for yeah what it is what it is are actually believing at the moment. Um, actually believing at the moment. Um, actually believing at the moment. Um, I've also heard you, Glenn, talk about I've also heard you, Glenn, talk about I've also heard you, Glenn, talk about how how how rather than trying to figure out how we rather than trying to figure out how we rather than trying to figure out how we as Christians can avoid seeming strange, as Christians can avoid seeming strange, as Christians can avoid seeming strange, that actually there is evangelistic that actually there is evangelistic that actually there is evangelistic power in leaning into some of our power in leaning into some of our power in leaning into some of our stranges. Um, talk about what you mean stranges. Um, talk about what you mean stranges. Um, talk about what you mean by that. I've been meditating a lot on by that. I've been meditating a lot on by that. I've been meditating a lot on Matthew chapter 5 recently as as kind of Matthew chapter 5 recently as as kind of Matthew chapter 5 recently as as kind of the heartbeat of evangelism really. If the heartbeat of evangelism really. If the heartbeat of evangelism really. If if we are the salt of the earth, we're if we are the salt of the earth, we're if we are the salt of the earth, we're the light of the world. We're a city on the light of the world. We're a city on the light of the world. We're a city on a hill that cannot be hidden. Um all a hill that cannot be hidden. Um all a hill that cannot be hidden. Um all three of those pictures are pictures of three of those pictures are pictures of three of those pictures are pictures of distinctiveness. Um if the salt is not distinctiveness. Um if the salt is not distinctiveness. Um if the salt is not salty, it's the most worthless. Can you salty, it's the most worthless. Can you salty, it's the most worthless. Can you imagine salt that's not salty? It's like imagine salt that's not salty? It's like imagine salt that's not salty? It's like like chalk dust. Like, who who could who like chalk dust. Like, who who could who like chalk dust. Like, who who could who could be bothered with salt that is not could be bothered with salt that is not could be bothered with salt that is not salty? What would it even mean to be salty? What would it even mean to be salty? What would it even mean to be light that doesn't shine? That's so light that doesn't shine? That's so light that doesn't shine? That's so ridiculous. It's so ridiculous, says ridiculous. It's so ridiculous, says ridiculous. It's so ridiculous, says Jesus. It would be like buying a lamp

Jesus. It would be like buying a lamp Jesus. It would be like buying a lamp and then putting an upturned bucket over and then putting an upturned bucket over and then putting an upturned bucket over the top of it. Like, who does that? What the top of it. Like, who does that? What the top of it. Like, who does that? What does that? And in a sense, Jesus does that? And in a sense, Jesus does that? And in a sense, Jesus is saying, "That's you." That is right. is saying, "That's you." That is right. is saying, "That's you." That is right. Oh, oh, ashamed Christian. um the the Oh, oh, ashamed Christian. um the the Oh, oh, ashamed Christian. um the the the sort of Christian that which is the sort of Christian that which is the sort of Christian that which is which is my kind of Christian. which is my kind of Christian. which is my kind of Christian. Unfortunately, I I am constantly tempted Unfortunately, I I am constantly tempted Unfortunately, I I am constantly tempted to mute my distinctiveness to mute my distinctiveness to mute my distinctiveness and uh to be like the sort of person who and uh to be like the sort of person who and uh to be like the sort of person who just puts an upturn bucket on on a lamp. just puts an upturn bucket on on a lamp. just puts an upturn bucket on on a lamp. How ridiculous. Or to be a city on a How ridiculous. Or to be a city on a How ridiculous. Or to be a city on a hill that's all self-conscious and hill that's all self-conscious and hill that's all self-conscious and doesn't want to be on a hill. It's like doesn't want to be on a hill. It's like doesn't want to be on a hill. It's like let's just be who you are. And and let's just be who you are. And and let's just be who you are. And and Matthew 5 is fascinating because Jesus Matthew 5 is fascinating because Jesus Matthew 5 is fascinating because Jesus doesn't say try and burn brighter. doesn't say try and burn brighter. doesn't say try and burn brighter. He says, "You are light. You're probably He says, "You are light. You're probably He says, "You are light. You're probably you're probably actively doing foolish you're probably actively doing foolish you're probably actively doing foolish things to mute your distinctiveness, to things to mute your distinctiveness, to things to mute your distinctiveness, to hide your light under a bushel and it's hide your light under a bushel and it's hide your light under a bushel and it's it's imbecillic and it's against your it's imbecillic and it's against your it's imbecillic and it's against your nature and you're spending your time nature and you're spending your time nature and you're spending your time trying not to be weird." And that's the trying not to be weird." And that's the trying not to be weird." And that's the that's the trouble. And I I think one of that's the trouble. And I I think one of that's the trouble. And I I think one of the huge issues for evangelism in the the huge issues for evangelism in the the huge issues for evangelism in the West is that most of the time my life West is that most of the time my life West is that most of the time my life looks indistinguishable from my looks indistinguishable from my looks indistinguishable from my non-Christian friends life. It's almost non-Christian friends life. It's almost non-Christian friends life. It's almost identical. Maybe in the calendar my identical. Maybe in the calendar my identical. Maybe in the calendar my Sunday mornings look different to his Sunday mornings look different to his Sunday mornings look different to his Sunday morning. Otherwise, how different Sunday morning. Otherwise, how different Sunday morning. Otherwise, how different am I from my neighbor? And one of the

am I from my neighbor? And one of the am I from my neighbor? And one of the reasons why we get nervous about reasons why we get nervous about reasons why we get nervous about evangelism is because when we start to evangelism is because when we start to evangelism is because when we start to speak about Jesus, that's the first time speak about Jesus, that's the first time speak about Jesus, that's the first time that difference is injected into the that difference is injected into the that difference is injected into the relationship. relationship. relationship. And all of a sudden, I I start to And all of a sudden, I I start to And all of a sudden, I I start to because I I feel wrongly that not being because I I feel wrongly that not being because I I feel wrongly that not being weird is the goal and blending in is the weird is the goal and blending in is the weird is the goal and blending in is the goal. And so I'm I'm desperate to blend goal. And so I'm I'm desperate to blend goal. And so I'm I'm desperate to blend in. And so I'm I'm going to not talk in. And so I'm I'm going to not talk in. And so I'm I'm going to not talk about Jesus. about Jesus. about Jesus. Um because the the moment I talk about Um because the the moment I talk about Um because the the moment I talk about Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of Jesus, I'm injecting an awkward kind of difference into the relationship. difference into the relationship. difference into the relationship. Whereas I think in the New Testament, Whereas I think in the New Testament, Whereas I think in the New Testament, it's the other way around. In the New it's the other way around. In the New it's the other way around. In the New Testament, my life is meant to be so Testament, my life is meant to be so Testament, my life is meant to be so weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ weird, so inexplicable outside of Christ that my friend is like, "Okay, you are that my friend is like, "Okay, you are that my friend is like, "Okay, you are really, really weird. Say something. really, really weird. Say something. really, really weird. Say something. relieve the tension for me. Why is it relieve the tension for me. Why is it relieve the tension for me. Why is it that you do the things that you do? And that you do the things that you do? And that you do the things that you do? And at that point, my Christian witness at that point, my Christian witness at that point, my Christian witness actually relieves the tension rather actually relieves the tension rather actually relieves the tension rather than introduces the tension. And I think than introduces the tension. And I think than introduces the tension. And I think you get that in in 1 Peter 3:15. Like, you get that in in 1 Peter 3:15. Like, you get that in in 1 Peter 3:15. Like, in your heart, set apart Christ the Lord in your heart, set apart Christ the Lord in your heart, set apart Christ the Lord as holy, always being prepared to give as holy, always being prepared to give as holy, always being prepared to give an answer to anyone who asks you for the an answer to anyone who asks you for the an answer to anyone who asks you for the reason for the hope that you have, but reason for the hope that you have, but reason for the hope that you have, but do this with gentleness and respect. And do this with gentleness and respect. And do this with gentleness and respect. And who is initiating this evangelistic who is initiating this evangelistic who is initiating this evangelistic encounter? It's the non-Christian encounter? It's the non-Christian encounter? It's the non-Christian because they're seeing my weirdness.

because they're seeing my weirdness. because they're seeing my weirdness. And my real danger in evangelism is not And my real danger in evangelism is not And my real danger in evangelism is not that I don't have an answer in that that I don't have an answer in that that I don't have an answer in that point. My real danger is that I haven't point. My real danger is that I haven't point. My real danger is that I haven't lived such a life that prompts such a lived such a life that prompts such a lived such a life that prompts such a question. And the question is not question. And the question is not question. And the question is not whether you've set something apart in whether you've set something apart in whether you've set something apart in your heart as holy. your heart as holy. your heart as holy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> It's what everyone has a lord that they >> It's what everyone has a lord that they >> It's what everyone has a lord that they have set apart as holy. Even believers have set apart as holy. Even believers have set apart as holy. Even believers functionally can be living with functionally can be living with functionally can be living with something else at reigning supreme. uh something else at reigning supreme. uh something else at reigning supreme. uh in their affections, their attention, in their affections, their attention, in their affections, their attention, their allegiance. But it's only when their allegiance. But it's only when their allegiance. But it's only when we've set apart the Lord Jesus Christ as we've set apart the Lord Jesus Christ as we've set apart the Lord Jesus Christ as holy that people are going to ask us to holy that people are going to ask us to holy that people are going to ask us to give a reason for the hope we have. give a reason for the hope we have. give a reason for the hope we have. We're watching this with Ben Sass right We're watching this with Ben Sass right We're watching this with Ben Sass right now. you know, just a Christian dying now. you know, just a Christian dying now. you know, just a Christian dying well and people are wanting to ask him well and people are wanting to ask him well and people are wanting to ask him questions and he's having wonderful questions and he's having wonderful questions and he's having wonderful opportunities to share the gospel in opportunities to share the gospel in opportunities to share the gospel in that context because people have seen a that context because people have seen a that context because people have seen a trust, a comfort, uh a belief in God's trust, a comfort, uh a belief in God's trust, a comfort, uh a belief in God's love and care for him and for his family love and care for him and for his family love and care for him and for his family uh as he's dying of cancer and uh and uh as he's dying of cancer and uh and uh as he's dying of cancer and uh and it's opened up opportunities to share.

it's opened up opportunities to share. it's opened up opportunities to share. Um t speaking of the weirdness, Glenn, Um t speaking of the weirdness, Glenn, Um t speaking of the weirdness, Glenn, one of the weirdnesses is just uh some one of the weirdnesses is just uh some one of the weirdnesses is just uh some of our truth claims. You know, I I can of our truth claims. You know, I I can of our truth claims. You know, I I can see a lot of people saying, "Well, I see a lot of people saying, "Well, I see a lot of people saying, "Well, I want your progress. I I want the good want your progress. I I want the good want your progress. I I want the good things that Christianity has given to things that Christianity has given to things that Christianity has given to me, but I don't want some of your crazy me, but I don't want some of your crazy me, but I don't want some of your crazy supernaturalism and some of your cl supernaturalism and some of your cl supernaturalism and some of your cl truth claims and especially some of your truth claims and especially some of your truth claims and especially some of your ethics." So how how do we in that let's ethics." So how how do we in that let's ethics." So how how do we in that let's say somebody has seen uh you know a a say somebody has seen uh you know a a say somebody has seen uh you know a a way of life in us a manner of dealing way of life in us a manner of dealing way of life in us a manner of dealing with other people that has prompted uh with other people that has prompted uh with other people that has prompted uh this kind of a conversation but you've this kind of a conversation but you've this kind of a conversation but you've got to talk about some of the things got to talk about some of the things got to talk about some of the things that they don't like in Christianity that they don't like in Christianity that they don't like in Christianity what what what counsel do you have to us what what what counsel do you have to us what what what counsel do you have to us as we have that conversation as we have that conversation as we have that conversation >> first be assured in your own heart that >> first be assured in your own heart that >> first be assured in your own heart that the way of Jesus is good um it's it's the way of Jesus is good um it's it's the way of Jesus is good um it's it's not like any of those ethical positions not like any of those ethical positions not like any of those ethical positions that Christians take is the the nasty that Christians take is the the nasty that Christians take is the the nasty price that we've got to pay in order to price that we've got to pay in order to price that we've got to pay in order to be in the Christian club. Um, it's it's be in the Christian club. Um, it's it's be in the Christian club. Um, it's it's far more like this this is the glorious far more like this this is the glorious far more like this this is the glorious but strange to the non-Christian but the but strange to the non-Christian but the but strange to the non-Christian but the glorious way of Christ that is a glorious way of Christ that is a glorious way of Christ that is a counterculture to the madness of the counterculture to the madness of the counterculture to the madness of the world and and so what you are you like world and and so what you are you like world and and so what you are you like defending in that moment um you might defending in that moment um you might defending in that moment um you might feel like you are very much on the feel like you are very much on the feel like you are very much on the defensive defensive defensive um I think in your heart you need to you um I think in your heart you need to you um I think in your heart you need to you need to be very assured yourself that need to be very assured yourself that need to be very assured yourself that the way of Jesus is beautiful. It's

the way of Jesus is beautiful. It's the way of Jesus is beautiful. It's bonkers, but it's beautiful. The way the bonkers, but it's beautiful. The way the bonkers, but it's beautiful. The way the way of sex and sexuality as laid out in way of sex and sexuality as laid out in way of sex and sexuality as laid out in in scripture is genuinely good news for in scripture is genuinely good news for in scripture is genuinely good news for the world. The way we treat the unborn, the world. The way we treat the unborn, the world. The way we treat the unborn, the sanctity of life issues at the the sanctity of life issues at the the sanctity of life issues at the beginning of life and at the end of beginning of life and at the end of beginning of life and at the end of life, that that is that is the actually life, that that is that is the actually life, that that is that is the actually compassionate view. No, no matter how compassionate view. No, no matter how compassionate view. No, no matter how the world wants to characterize it. So, the world wants to characterize it. So, the world wants to characterize it. So, in in your own heart, set apart Christ in in your own heart, set apart Christ in in your own heart, set apart Christ the Lord as holy. set set apart the Lord as holy. set set apart the Lord as holy. set set apart the goodness of Jesus and that some of the goodness of Jesus and that some of the goodness of Jesus and that some of these, you know, ethical positions are these, you know, ethical positions are these, you know, ethical positions are not arbitrary and they're not just a not arbitrary and they're not just a not arbitrary and they're not just a price you have to pay to be in the price you have to pay to be in the price you have to pay to be in the Christian club. They are they are things Christian club. They are they are things Christian club. They are they are things that my non-Christian friend won't won't that my non-Christian friend won't won't that my non-Christian friend won't won't understand at the moment. And I guess understand at the moment. And I guess understand at the moment. And I guess one of the first moves you need to then one of the first moves you need to then one of the first moves you need to then make with your non-Christian friend is make with your non-Christian friend is make with your non-Christian friend is is to say, "Look, I I don't think you'll is to say, "Look, I I don't think you'll is to say, "Look, I I don't think you'll get this right away, but can I go to get this right away, but can I go to get this right away, but can I go to 30,000 ft and give you can I give you 30,000 ft and give you can I give you 30,000 ft and give you can I give you two minutes on how the Bible is a two minutes on how the Bible is a two minutes on how the Bible is a romance between like man and woman and romance between like man and woman and romance between like man and woman and maybe then our conversation about maybe then our conversation about maybe then our conversation about marriage might make sense? or can I can marriage might make sense? or can I can marriage might make sense? or can I can I go to 30,000 feet and just give you my I go to 30,000 feet and just give you my I go to 30,000 feet and just give you my my doctrine of humanity and the fact my doctrine of humanity and the fact my doctrine of humanity and the fact that every single member of the human that every single member of the human that every single member of the human family has worth and dignity in God's family has worth and dignity in God's family has worth and dignity in God's eyes and then we can dive down into eyes and then we can dive down into eyes and then we can dive down into whether this embryo has dignity and whether this embryo has dignity and whether this embryo has dignity and worth. You know, you have to you have to worth. You know, you have to you have to worth. You know, you have to you have to beg their indulgence at that point. And beg their indulgence at that point. And beg their indulgence at that point. And I'm not saying that's easily done, but

I'm not saying that's easily done, but I'm not saying that's easily done, but those are those are the first moves that those are those are the first moves that those are those are the first moves that need to be made. The pastor who goes deeper in theology The pastor who goes deeper in theology doesn't just become a better thinker, he doesn't just become a better thinker, he doesn't just become a better thinker, he becomes a better shepherd. Southern becomes a better shepherd. Southern becomes a better shepherd. Southern Seminary's PhD programs are forming Seminary's PhD programs are forming Seminary's PhD programs are forming pastor theologians. Men who have pastor theologians. Men who have pastor theologians. Men who have wrestled seriously with the great wrestled seriously with the great wrestled seriously with the great tradition of Christian thought and who tradition of Christian thought and who tradition of Christian thought and who bring that depth back to the people they bring that depth back to the people they bring that depth back to the people they love and lead. What you gain in your love and lead. What you gain in your love and lead. What you gain in your study, your congregation receives. And study, your congregation receives. And study, your congregation receives. And Southern Seminary's faculty are here to Southern Seminary's faculty are here to Southern Seminary's faculty are here to support you in your work to strengthen support you in your work to strengthen support you in your work to strengthen the church. Southern's PhD program is the church. Southern's PhD program is the church. Southern's PhD program is built to fit alongside your ministry, built to fit alongside your ministry, built to fit alongside your ministry, offering flexible formats from fully offering flexible formats from fully offering flexible formats from fully online to modular to in-person, so you online to modular to in-person, so you online to modular to in-person, so you can pursue the kind of rigorous can pursue the kind of rigorous can pursue the kind of rigorous theological training that will change theological training that will change theological training that will change how you pastor without stepping away how you pastor without stepping away how you pastor without stepping away from your church. If you're ready to go from your church. If you're ready to go from your church. If you're ready to go deeper, Southern Seminary's PhD program deeper, Southern Seminary's PhD program deeper, Southern Seminary's PhD program is where that begins. Visit sbts.edu/phd And we've already touched on this a bit And we've already touched on this a bit in the conversation about inclusion and in the conversation about inclusion and in the conversation about inclusion and welcome. But I also think one of the welcome. But I also think one of the welcome. But I also think one of the ways you can turn this kind of back to ways you can turn this kind of back to ways you can turn this kind of back to the the your your friend your your the the your your friend your your the the your your friend your your questioning skeptical friend is by questioning skeptical friend is by questioning skeptical friend is by looking at the topic of forgiveness. You looking at the topic of forgiveness. You looking at the topic of forgiveness. You know, it's been said we we live in an know, it's been said we we live in an know, it's been said we we live in an age in which everything is permitted but age in which everything is permitted but age in which everything is permitted but nothing is forgiven. And

nothing is forgiven. And nothing is forgiven. And we live in an age of um as you were we live in an age of um as you were we live in an age of um as you were saying earlier, Glenn, essentially a saying earlier, Glenn, essentially a saying earlier, Glenn, essentially a secular orthodoxy with a priesthood with secular orthodoxy with a priesthood with secular orthodoxy with a priesthood with excommunication. excommunication. excommunication. And anyone could be cancelled today uh And anyone could be cancelled today uh And anyone could be cancelled today uh for falling out of step even in a minor for falling out of step even in a minor for falling out of step even in a minor way with the reigning orthodoxy of their way with the reigning orthodoxy of their way with the reigning orthodoxy of their little ever narrowing tribe. And so what little ever narrowing tribe. And so what little ever narrowing tribe. And so what a big glorious welcome is offered only a big glorious welcome is offered only a big glorious welcome is offered only in the gospel of Jesus Christ uh where in the gospel of Jesus Christ uh where in the gospel of Jesus Christ uh where forgiveness is found. forgiveness is found. forgiveness is found. >> Yeah. And notice it's welcoming like the >> Yeah. And notice it's welcoming like the >> Yeah. And notice it's welcoming like the rather than the inclusion language like rather than the inclusion language like rather than the inclusion language like the the inclusion is like everybody is the the inclusion is like everybody is the the inclusion is like everybody is on the bus. Um and there's you know and on the bus. Um and there's you know and on the bus. Um and there's you know and and anybody could be in charge of the and anybody could be in charge of the and anybody could be in charge of the steering wheel at at any one point of steering wheel at at any one point of steering wheel at at any one point of view but also anyone could get kicked view but also anyone could get kicked view but also anyone could get kicked off quite quite without process. Um that off quite quite without process. Um that off quite quite without process. Um that that's kind of the inclusion bus. I that's kind of the inclusion bus. I that's kind of the inclusion bus. I think I think the yeah the welcome is a think I think the yeah the welcome is a think I think the yeah the welcome is a is a welcome into a family that has a is a welcome into a family that has a is a welcome into a family that has a structure that has a direction that has structure that has a direction that has structure that has a direction that has a meaning that has you know rituals and a meaning that has you know rituals and a meaning that has you know rituals and all the and all the rest of it. But um all the and all the rest of it. But um all the and all the rest of it. But um but but I think that that sense of thick but but I think that that sense of thick but but I think that that sense of thick community community community um is is far more what what people are um is is far more what what people are um is is far more what what people are made for than the the nice sounding you made for than the the nice sounding you made for than the the nice sounding you know inclusion language which masks as know inclusion language which masks as know inclusion language which masks as you say a cancel culture which is the you say a cancel culture which is the you say a cancel culture which is the the shadow side.

the shadow side. the shadow side. How do you talk about repentance with How do you talk about repentance with How do you talk about repentance with unbelievers in a way be- because that is unbelievers in a way be- because that is unbelievers in a way be- because that is part of that hard message of Jesus that part of that hard message of Jesus that part of that hard message of Jesus that in order to receive his welcome you have in order to receive his welcome you have in order to receive his welcome you have to do a U-turn. Um how do you talk about to do a U-turn. Um how do you talk about to do a U-turn. Um how do you talk about what repentance isn't and what it is and what repentance isn't and what it is and what repentance isn't and what it is and why it's actually good news for a why it's actually good news for a why it's actually good news for a person. That's why I like in 321 you person. That's why I like in 321 you person. That's why I like in 321 you finish with one. You finish with be one finish with one. You finish with be one finish with one. You finish with be one with Jesus. um which is an all embracing with Jesus. um which is an all embracing with Jesus. um which is an all embracing all of life marital union, right? And all of life marital union, right? And all of life marital union, right? And and you know perhaps the chief biblical and you know perhaps the chief biblical and you know perhaps the chief biblical uh metaphor for union with Christ is is uh metaphor for union with Christ is is uh metaphor for union with Christ is is a marital one. And you know I I did not a marital one. And you know I I did not a marital one. And you know I I did not pick up Emma, my wife, as a hobby in the pick up Emma, my wife, as a hobby in the pick up Emma, my wife, as a hobby in the year 2003, which which I' I've been year 2003, which which I' I've been year 2003, which which I' I've been keeping up this side hustle called keeping up this side hustle called keeping up this side hustle called marriage, you know, since 2008. No, marriage, you know, since 2008. No, marriage, you know, since 2008. No, >> I have been one with Emma um for the >> I have been one with Emma um for the >> I have been one with Emma um for the last whatever it is, 23 years. and and last whatever it is, 23 years. and and last whatever it is, 23 years. and and it is an all in all of life all it is an all in all of life all it is an all in all of life all embracing reorientation of my very self embracing reorientation of my very self embracing reorientation of my very self and and so what we're what we're and and so what we're what we're and and so what we're what we're offering to the to the non-Christian you offering to the to the non-Christian you offering to the to the non-Christian you can do premarital you know counseling can do premarital you know counseling can do premarital you know counseling it's very important to do premarital it's very important to do premarital it's very important to do premarital counseling and the equivalent of that in counseling and the equivalent of that in counseling and the equivalent of that in evangelism is to say hey Jesus is evangelism is to say hey Jesus is evangelism is to say hey Jesus is offered to you completely for free he is offered to you completely for free he is offered to you completely for free he is a completely free Lord a completely free Lord a completely free Lord do you want to be one with this do you want to be one with this do you want to be one with this completely free Lord who has already you completely free Lord who has already you completely free Lord who has already you know offered himself to you with body

know offered himself to you with body know offered himself to you with body and soul bled his own heart's blood for and soul bled his own heart's blood for and soul bled his own heart's blood for you he's raised up again he says will you he's raised up again he says will you he's raised up again he says will you be one with me but it's an all you be one with me but it's an all you be one with me but it's an all embracing kind of a oneness and hey if embracing kind of a oneness and hey if embracing kind of a oneness and hey if you if you say you know I do to Jesus it you if you say you know I do to Jesus it you if you say you know I do to Jesus it will involve all sorts of things right will involve all sorts of things right will involve all sorts of things right and and you can lay out in your and and you can lay out in your and and you can lay out in your premarital counseling as it were what premarital counseling as it were what premarital counseling as it were what oneness with Jesus will will look like oneness with Jesus will will look like oneness with Jesus will will look like and and it is not just a checklist list and and it is not just a checklist list and and it is not just a checklist list of new moral behaviors. It's an entirely of new moral behaviors. It's an entirely of new moral behaviors. It's an entirely new orientation. Uh and so so repentance new orientation. Uh and so so repentance new orientation. Uh and so so repentance is a gift. Like we we know that, right? is a gift. Like we we know that, right? is a gift. Like we we know that, right? Repent repentance is given to people. Repent repentance is given to people. Repent repentance is given to people. Repentance is a gift because Jesus is Repentance is a gift because Jesus is Repentance is a gift because Jesus is given to people, not as a get out of given to people, not as a get out of given to people, not as a get out of hell free card, not as a blank check um hell free card, not as a blank check um hell free card, not as a blank check um for your sinning. He's given to you for for your sinning. He's given to you for for your sinning. He's given to you for free as a Lord that you are to be one free as a Lord that you are to be one free as a Lord that you are to be one with. And praise God, you have a new with. And praise God, you have a new with. And praise God, you have a new life now, right? Praise God. Praise God, life now, right? Praise God. Praise God, life now, right? Praise God. Praise God, you can be different. In fact, in Jesus, you can be different. In fact, in Jesus, you can be different. In fact, in Jesus, you are different. And praise God, you you are different. And praise God, you you are different. And praise God, you can actually be new. And and actually, I can actually be new. And and actually, I can actually be new. And and actually, I I do think the world is looking for ways I do think the world is looking for ways I do think the world is looking for ways to be new. I think non-Christian like to be new. I think non-Christian like to be new. I think non-Christian like you you look at any magazine you you look at any magazine you you look at any magazine and uh the front covers are just and uh the front covers are just and uh the front covers are just splashed with, you know, six ways to get splashed with, you know, six ways to get splashed with, you know, six ways to get abs before Easter or like whatever it abs before Easter or like whatever it abs before Easter or like whatever it is. It's it's like you are told is. It's it's like you are told is. It's it's like you are told constantly be new, be new, be new, be constantly be new, be new, be new, be constantly be new, be new, be new, be new. And there's a there's a sense in new. And there's a there's a sense in new. And there's a there's a sense in which the human heart actually does long which the human heart actually does long which the human heart actually does long for for becoming a new creation. Like for for becoming a new creation. Like for for becoming a new creation. Like obviously the flesh hates the idea of

obviously the flesh hates the idea of obviously the flesh hates the idea of change and hates the idea of not being change and hates the idea of not being change and hates the idea of not being the boss, all of that. But there there the boss, all of that. But there there the boss, all of that. But there there is a part of people that really wants to is a part of people that really wants to is a part of people that really wants to be new that that really and so when be new that that really and so when be new that that really and so when Jesus comes and says you know the time Jesus comes and says you know the time Jesus comes and says you know the time has come repent believe the good news has come repent believe the good news has come repent believe the good news there's there's a a glorious attractive there's there's a a glorious attractive there's there's a a glorious attractive compelling proclamation that comes along compelling proclamation that comes along compelling proclamation that comes along when you have an all embracing sense of when you have an all embracing sense of when you have an all embracing sense of repentance if it's just tidy up your act repentance if it's just tidy up your act repentance if it's just tidy up your act you know um then no nobody would get you know um then no nobody would get you know um then no nobody would get that excited about repentance but I that excited about repentance but I that excited about repentance but I think go deeper into what repentance think go deeper into what repentance think go deeper into what repentance truly is and and I think you can you can truly is and and I think you can you can truly is and and I think you can you can offer it to people in a compelling way. offer it to people in a compelling way. offer it to people in a compelling way. >> Glenn, you've um ministered in Australia >> Glenn, you've um ministered in Australia >> Glenn, you've um ministered in Australia and Britain. Um any word for us in the and Britain. Um any word for us in the and Britain. Um any word for us in the United States or in the larger North United States or in the larger North United States or in the larger North American context? Uh things that you American context? Uh things that you American context? Uh things that you would want us to be on the lookout for would want us to be on the lookout for would want us to be on the lookout for as pastors that you've observed because as pastors that you've observed because as pastors that you've observed because you're ministering in an environment you're ministering in an environment you're ministering in an environment where secularization has progressed to a where secularization has progressed to a where secularization has progressed to a certain stage. We see it in parts of the certain stage. We see it in parts of the certain stage. We see it in parts of the US, maybe not uh everywhere. There is US, maybe not uh everywhere. There is US, maybe not uh everywhere. There is still a nominal Bible belt in the United still a nominal Bible belt in the United still a nominal Bible belt in the United States in the ways I guess in in Britain States in the ways I guess in in Britain States in the ways I guess in in Britain you you'd have to kind of go to Northern you you'd have to kind of go to Northern you you'd have to kind of go to Northern Ireland to find that. U but just talk Ireland to find that. U but just talk Ireland to find that. U but just talk talk to us about things that we might talk to us about things that we might talk to us about things that we might need to think about that you've seen need to think about that you've seen need to think about that you've seen because of where you've been situated in because of where you've been situated in because of where you've been situated in your ministry.

your ministry. your ministry. >> Speak to us from the future, Glenn. The church of Jesus Christ is doing just The church of Jesus Christ is doing just fine in the future. The church of Jesus fine in the future. The church of Jesus fine in the future. The church of Jesus Christ is doing just fine. Uh no matter Christ is doing just fine. Uh no matter Christ is doing just fine. Uh no matter what the secular authorities say, Jesus what the secular authorities say, Jesus what the secular authorities say, Jesus is still Lord. uh no no matter uh who is is still Lord. uh no no matter uh who is is still Lord. uh no no matter uh who is in the Oval Office or in Westminster uh in the Oval Office or in Westminster uh in the Oval Office or in Westminster uh or in Canberra in Australia I think um or in Canberra in Australia I think um or in Canberra in Australia I think um there is no sense really there is no sense really there is no sense really certainly in Australia there's no sense certainly in Australia there's no sense certainly in Australia there's no sense of saying to the culture anymore you of saying to the culture anymore you of saying to the culture anymore you know they they want to go in this this know they they want to go in this this know they they want to go in this this very post very non-Christian direction very post very non-Christian direction very post very non-Christian direction and you know um and it makes sense for and you know um and it makes sense for and you know um and it makes sense for the church that has shaped the morals of the church that has shaped the morals of the church that has shaped the morals of a nation to say, "No, don't do it. Don't a nation to say, "No, don't do it. Don't a nation to say, "No, don't do it. Don't go in this, you know, in this cultural go in this, you know, in this cultural go in this, you know, in this cultural direction. Please don't go." Um, direction. Please don't go." Um, direction. Please don't go." Um, and it it totally makes sense at at and it it totally makes sense at at and it it totally makes sense at at various various various uh stages of cultural development, of uh stages of cultural development, of uh stages of cultural development, of secularization, secularization, secularization, for the church to say, "Hey, we gave you for the church to say, "Hey, we gave you for the church to say, "Hey, we gave you marriage." honestly and and even like marriage." honestly and and even like marriage." honestly and and even like gay marriage, you you you've you've been gay marriage, you you you've you've been gay marriage, you you you've you've been tweaking with and and completely tweaking with and and completely tweaking with and and completely redefining a Christian thing, right? And redefining a Christian thing, right? And redefining a Christian thing, right? And you and you're still dealing with so you you and you're still dealing with so you you and you're still dealing with so you still want two people, right? And and still want two people, right? And and still want two people, right? And and you you you still want to give some kind you you you still want to give some kind you you you still want to give some kind of notion of of permanence and and for

of notion of of permanence and and for of notion of of permanence and and for life and and that kind of thing like and life and and that kind of thing like and life and and that kind of thing like and so it makes it does it totally makes so it makes it does it totally makes so it makes it does it totally makes sense for Christians to say, "Guys, what sense for Christians to say, "Guys, what sense for Christians to say, "Guys, what are you what are you even doing?" like are you what are you even doing?" like are you what are you even doing?" like like come to Matthew 19. This is what like come to Matthew 19. This is what like come to Matthew 19. This is what marriage is. It totally makes sense to marriage is. It totally makes sense to marriage is. It totally makes sense to do that. But in a in a country's do that. But in a in a country's do that. But in a in a country's history, there comes a point where the history, there comes a point where the history, there comes a point where the church if the if the culture keeps on church if the if the culture keeps on church if the if the culture keeps on going that wait there comes a point going that wait there comes a point going that wait there comes a point where the church just stops kind of where the church just stops kind of where the church just stops kind of throwing itself in front of the stampede throwing itself in front of the stampede throwing itself in front of the stampede and saying no wait no you know and there and saying no wait no you know and there and saying no wait no you know and there comes a point where you sort of do the comes a point where you sort of do the comes a point where you sort of do the Abraham option. Um, and and I think um, Abraham option. Um, and and I think um, Abraham option. Um, and and I think um, you know, I'm riffing on the the the you know, I'm riffing on the the the you know, I'm riffing on the the the Benedict option, but the but the the Benedict option, but the but the the Benedict option, but the but the the Abraham option from from Genesis 14 is Abraham option from from Genesis 14 is Abraham option from from Genesis 14 is Abraham like sets up by the trees of Abraham like sets up by the trees of Abraham like sets up by the trees of Mamray and there are all sorts of wars Mamray and there are all sorts of wars Mamray and there are all sorts of wars that are going on. There's the northern that are going on. There's the northern that are going on. There's the northern kings and then there's the Sodom and kings and then there's the Sodom and kings and then there's the Sodom and Gomorrah and all those five kings down Gomorrah and all those five kings down Gomorrah and all those five kings down there and they go through all sorts of there and they go through all sorts of there and they go through all sorts of back and forths and it's a very um it's back and forths and it's a very um it's back and forths and it's a very um it's a very unstable time and and Abraham a very unstable time and and Abraham a very unstable time and and Abraham builds the household of faith and he can builds the household of faith and he can builds the household of faith and he can still mix it with the best of them.

still mix it with the best of them. still mix it with the best of them. There's 312 men in his household that There's 312 men in his household that There's 312 men in his household that can that can still go and they they do can that can still go and they they do can that can still go and they they do enter into the frey and they enter into enter into the frey and they enter into enter into the frey and they enter into the battle to get lot and at some stage the battle to get lot and at some stage the battle to get lot and at some stage you know for the sake of the household you know for the sake of the household you know for the sake of the household of faith Abraham will enter into the of faith Abraham will enter into the of faith Abraham will enter into the wars of his day but then he will never wars of his day but then he will never wars of his day but then he will never allow the king of Sodom to enrich him in allow the king of Sodom to enrich him in allow the king of Sodom to enrich him in any way shape or form and and he will any way shape or form and and he will any way shape or form and and he will instead lead um those people towards the instead lead um those people towards the instead lead um those people towards the great MelkiseDC figure the the high great MelkiseDC figure the the high great MelkiseDC figure the the high priest who comes with bread and wine and priest who comes with bread and wine and priest who comes with bread and wine and then he will go back to to building the then he will go back to to building the then he will go back to to building the the household of faith. And I I do think the household of faith. And I I do think the household of faith. And I I do think that that is um the church's calling to that that is um the church's calling to that that is um the church's calling to to build the household of faith. And I to build the household of faith. And I to build the household of faith. And I think it's in some senses it can be think it's in some senses it can be think it's in some senses it can be easier in Australia when we've stopped easier in Australia when we've stopped easier in Australia when we've stopped trying to stop the stampede trying to stop the stampede trying to stop the stampede and we've basically come off to one side and we've basically come off to one side and we've basically come off to one side and we've sort of said, um, okay, you and we've sort of said, um, okay, you and we've sort of said, um, okay, you have gone in that direction. We will be have gone in that direction. We will be have gone in that direction. We will be over here. over here. over here. we will be a place of refuge for for you we will be a place of refuge for for you we will be a place of refuge for for you when you're ready to be a refugee from when you're ready to be a refugee from when you're ready to be a refugee from the sexual revolution or whatever other the sexual revolution or whatever other the sexual revolution or whatever other stampede that you're in in in involved stampede that you're in in in involved stampede that you're in in in involved in right now. Um, so I think the the in right now. Um, so I think the the in right now. Um, so I think the the church is more off to one side in in church is more off to one side in in church is more off to one side in in both Australia and and the UK. And it's both Australia and and the UK. And it's both Australia and and the UK. And it's okay. It's okay to be where we are and okay. It's okay to be where we are and okay. It's okay to be where we are and we're seeing fruit there. So, don't we're seeing fruit there. So, don't we're seeing fruit there. So, don't don't fear that if that's where you end don't fear that if that's where you end don't fear that if that's where you end up.

up. up. >> I'm happy you brought it there, Glenn, >> I'm happy you brought it there, Glenn, >> I'm happy you brought it there, Glenn, uh because the church is the hope of the uh because the church is the hope of the uh because the church is the hope of the world. And this is a podcast for world. And this is a podcast for world. And this is a podcast for pastors. Uh so, it's it's a a a welcome pastors. Uh so, it's it's a a a welcome pastors. Uh so, it's it's a a a welcome reminder to us that the dear sheep for reminder to us that the dear sheep for reminder to us that the dear sheep for whom Jesus prayed and bled and died that whom Jesus prayed and bled and died that whom Jesus prayed and bled and died that have been entrusted to our care for a have been entrusted to our care for a have been entrusted to our care for a time, um that that is the the local time, um that that is the the local time, um that that is the the local church is God's ultimate evangelism church is God's ultimate evangelism church is God's ultimate evangelism strategy. um and preaching through the strategy. um and preaching through the strategy. um and preaching through the book of Acts and have have noticed just, book of Acts and have have noticed just, book of Acts and have have noticed just, you know, right after the dramatic story you know, right after the dramatic story you know, right after the dramatic story of Pentecost, 3,000 being saved in a of Pentecost, 3,000 being saved in a of Pentecost, 3,000 being saved in a day, you immediately have that first day, you immediately have that first day, you immediately have that first snapshot of the compelling life of snapshot of the compelling life of snapshot of the compelling life of believers living together, taking believers living together, taking believers living together, taking responsibility for one another, responsibility for one another, responsibility for one another, worshiping, and that remains the most worshiping, and that remains the most worshiping, and that remains the most compelling witness to a watching world, compelling witness to a watching world, compelling witness to a watching world, >> right? the newspapers would have covered >> right? the newspapers would have covered >> right? the newspapers would have covered all the wars in in Genesis 14. The all the wars in in Genesis 14. The all the wars in in Genesis 14. The newspapers would have been all covering newspapers would have been all covering newspapers would have been all covering the five kings versus the four kings and the five kings versus the four kings and the five kings versus the four kings and history is being made in in those tents history is being made in in those tents history is being made in in those tents like with with Abraham and and his seed.

like with with Abraham and and his seed. like with with Abraham and and his seed. And if and if you look at the content of And if and if you look at the content of And if and if you look at the content of what happens in the next few chapters, what happens in the next few chapters, what happens in the next few chapters, it's especially God teaching Abram about it's especially God teaching Abram about it's especially God teaching Abram about himself. And it just reminds me that one himself. And it just reminds me that one himself. And it just reminds me that one of the ways that pastors can prepare of the ways that pastors can prepare of the ways that pastors can prepare their people to do good cultural their people to do good cultural their people to do good cultural apologetics is teach Bible doctrine, but apologetics is teach Bible doctrine, but apologetics is teach Bible doctrine, but explain to people what it's for and then explain to people what it's for and then explain to people what it's for and then show them how it is good and beautiful. show them how it is good and beautiful. show them how it is good and beautiful. As you do that, you'll actually be As you do that, you'll actually be As you do that, you'll actually be helping them have conversations with helping them have conversations with helping them have conversations with their neighbors. Um, and conversations their neighbors. Um, and conversations their neighbors. Um, and conversations that are not antagonistic, but that are not antagonistic, but that are not antagonistic, but conversations that are that are we we conversations that are that are we we conversations that are that are we we want you to be welcomed to all of these want you to be welcomed to all of these want you to be welcomed to all of these benefits. Let me explain why I believe benefits. Let me explain why I believe benefits. Let me explain why I believe what I believe. what I believe. what I believe. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Yeah, I love that. >> Well, here's how I'd like to end the >> Well, here's how I'd like to end the >> Well, here's how I'd like to end the interview. I I didn't give Glenn interview. I I didn't give Glenn interview. I I didn't give Glenn advanced warning on this. I didn't even advanced warning on this. I didn't even advanced warning on this. I didn't even mention it to League, but it just it mention it to League, but it just it mention it to League, but it just it occurs to me. Um, we had a lot of fun occurs to me. Um, we had a lot of fun occurs to me. Um, we had a lot of fun with Wes Huff when he was on with us, with Wes Huff when he was on with us, with Wes Huff when he was on with us, uh, doing a bit of a lightning round uh, doing a bit of a lightning round uh, doing a bit of a lightning round where we posed some common objections to where we posed some common objections to where we posed some common objections to Christianity and asked him and you know, Christianity and asked him and you know, Christianity and asked him and you know, how would he at least begin an answer to how would he at least begin an answer to how would he at least begin an answer to a good faith skeptic questioner? Um, and a good faith skeptic questioner? Um, and a good faith skeptic questioner? Um, and so I'd love to Glenn for you to just so I'd love to Glenn for you to just so I'd love to Glenn for you to just help pastors think on their feet. So help pastors think on their feet. So help pastors think on their feet. So Glenn, are you game to answer a few Glenn, are you game to answer a few Glenn, are you game to answer a few quick questions?

quick questions? quick questions? >> Yep. Let's see. Let's Let's give it a >> Yep. Let's see. Let's Let's give it a >> Yep. Let's see. Let's Let's give it a go. go. go. >> Well, we've mentioned a couple times >> Well, we've mentioned a couple times >> Well, we've mentioned a couple times just the Bible. We've just referenced just the Bible. We've just referenced just the Bible. We've just referenced it, but what would you say to someone? it, but what would you say to someone? it, but what would you say to someone? Again, we're talking about good faith Again, we're talking about good faith Again, we're talking about good faith questioners. Someone who's just questioners. Someone who's just questioners. Someone who's just convinced that the Bible is an outdated convinced that the Bible is an outdated convinced that the Bible is an outdated book of moral lessons that frankly has book of moral lessons that frankly has book of moral lessons that frankly has some stuff in there that that we really some stuff in there that that we really some stuff in there that that we really should embarrass us. It's not a book to should embarrass us. It's not a book to should embarrass us. It's not a book to be taken seriously. What would you say? be taken seriously. What would you say? be taken seriously. What would you say? >> I would say, have you read it? Um, I >> I would say, have you read it? Um, I >> I would say, have you read it? Um, I would say, have you read and and a would say, have you read and and a would say, have you read and and a simple way in is, have you read a gospel simple way in is, have you read a gospel simple way in is, have you read a gospel since becoming an adult? Have you read since becoming an adult? Have you read since becoming an adult? Have you read one of the four biographies of Jesus? one of the four biographies of Jesus? one of the four biographies of Jesus? Because I think when you actually have Because I think when you actually have Because I think when you actually have contact with the actual Bible rather contact with the actual Bible rather contact with the actual Bible rather than the idea of the Bible as a as a than the idea of the Bible as a as a than the idea of the Bible as a as a poisonous religious document, um, you're poisonous religious document, um, you're poisonous religious document, um, you're talking about night and day difference. talking about night and day difference. talking about night and day difference. So, I I would first of all say, you So, I I would first of all say, you So, I I would first of all say, you know, have you read it? And if they do know, have you read it? And if they do know, have you read it? And if they do say, "Ah, no, I have a problem with the say, "Ah, no, I have a problem with the say, "Ah, no, I have a problem with the Bible precisely because I've read it." Bible precisely because I've read it." Bible precisely because I've read it." Um, I I think I would then say, "Well, Um, I I think I would then say, "Well, Um, I I think I would then say, "Well, the way Jesus told us to read the Bible the way Jesus told us to read the Bible the way Jesus told us to read the Bible in Matthew chapter 19 as as a story that in Matthew chapter 19 as as a story that in Matthew chapter 19 as as a story that culminates in him and he said, you know, culminates in him and he said, you know, culminates in him and he said, you know, in the beginning there was a kind of a a in the beginning there was a kind of a a in the beginning there was a kind of a a perfection. There was a fall into perfection. There was a fall into perfection. There was a fall into hardness of heart in the Old Testament.

hardness of heart in the Old Testament. hardness of heart in the Old Testament. And Moses gave non ideal laws to the And Moses gave non ideal laws to the And Moses gave non ideal laws to the Israelites as part of a story of Israelites as part of a story of Israelites as part of a story of creation and then fall. And then Jesus creation and then fall. And then Jesus creation and then fall. And then Jesus said he has come to be this jubilee to said he has come to be this jubilee to said he has come to be this jubilee to be this fulfillment of all the strands be this fulfillment of all the strands be this fulfillment of all the strands that the Old Testament was was weaving that the Old Testament was was weaving that the Old Testament was was weaving together. And so are you reading the together. And so are you reading the together. And so are you reading the Bible as a story that has a sweep to it, Bible as a story that has a sweep to it, Bible as a story that has a sweep to it, that has a shape to it, that is that has a shape to it, that is that has a shape to it, that is fulfilled in Jesus himself? because I fulfilled in Jesus himself? because I fulfilled in Jesus himself? because I think that's the way that Christians think that's the way that Christians think that's the way that Christians view the Bible. And the reason why we view the Bible. And the reason why we view the Bible. And the reason why we love the Bible is not simply because we love the Bible is not simply because we love the Bible is not simply because we like ancient texts. It's because we love like ancient texts. It's because we love like ancient texts. It's because we love Jesus. And question number one is, have Jesus. And question number one is, have Jesus. And question number one is, have you read Have you read the Bible? But you read Have you read the Bible? But you read Have you read the Bible? But question number two is is and and what question number two is is and and what question number two is is and and what do you make of him? What do you make of do you make of him? What do you make of do you make of him? What do you make of Christ himself? Christ himself? Christ himself? >> It's great. And it's the only story in >> It's great. And it's the only story in >> It's great. And it's the only story in which the central character loves us which the central character loves us which the central character loves us back. back. back. >> Okay, I'm stealing that. Thank you, >> Okay, I'm stealing that. Thank you, >> Okay, I'm stealing that. Thank you, Matt. Matt. Matt. leg. Well, let let's say you're talking leg. Well, let let's say you're talking leg. Well, let let's say you're talking with someone and they say, "Uh, I I I with someone and they say, "Uh, I I I with someone and they say, "Uh, I I I don't understand why you need to believe don't understand why you need to believe don't understand why you need to believe that Jesus is divine. Can't we can't we that Jesus is divine. Can't we can't we that Jesus is divine. Can't we can't we just think of him as a good man who just think of him as a good man who just think of him as a good man who showed us what God wants us to be like?"

showed us what God wants us to be like?" showed us what God wants us to be like?" Uh, why do you Christians insist on Uh, why do you Christians insist on Uh, why do you Christians insist on thinking of him as divine? That seems thinking of him as divine? That seems thinking of him as divine? That seems implausible to me. What do you say? implausible to me. What do you say? implausible to me. What do you say? Well, I guess the symbol of Christianity Well, I guess the symbol of Christianity Well, I guess the symbol of Christianity is not a ladder, it's a cross. And if is not a ladder, it's a cross. And if is not a ladder, it's a cross. And if Jesus was a a godly man Jesus was a a godly man Jesus was a a godly man showing us the way to heaven, then I showing us the way to heaven, then I showing us the way to heaven, then I guess the symbol of Christianity would guess the symbol of Christianity would guess the symbol of Christianity would be a ladder. And that sounds attractive be a ladder. And that sounds attractive be a ladder. And that sounds attractive in one sense. Don't we all want 12 rules in one sense. Don't we all want 12 rules in one sense. Don't we all want 12 rules for life and 12 more rules for life? for life and 12 more rules for life? for life and 12 more rules for life? Don't we all want to ascend up into the Don't we all want to ascend up into the Don't we all want to ascend up into the heavenlies through our own behavior? And heavenlies through our own behavior? And heavenlies through our own behavior? And it it sounds good, but it's a heck of a it it sounds good, but it's a heck of a it it sounds good, but it's a heck of a lot of pressure. And I'm not sure I can lot of pressure. And I'm not sure I can lot of pressure. And I'm not sure I can do that. Um, the symbol at the heart of do that. Um, the symbol at the heart of do that. Um, the symbol at the heart of Christianity is a cross, which is Christianity is a cross, which is Christianity is a cross, which is basically a rescue rope coming down from basically a rescue rope coming down from basically a rescue rope coming down from heaven. Here, here comes here's the heaven. Here, here comes here's the heaven. Here, here comes here's the Christian story. God comes to earth to Christian story. God comes to earth to Christian story. God comes to earth to do what we can't because we're in the do what we can't because we're in the do what we can't because we're in the gutter. And that's a radically different gutter. And that's a radically different gutter. And that's a radically different message to self-help manuals. It's also message to self-help manuals. It's also message to self-help manuals. It's also a radically different message to to a radically different message to to a radically different message to to other religions in the world. I think other religions in the world. I think other religions in the world. I think there's a lot of good advice in other there's a lot of good advice in other there's a lot of good advice in other religions around the world. But the religions around the world. But the religions around the world. But the problem with those other religions is problem with those other religions is problem with those other religions is not that they give bad advice. It's that not that they give bad advice. It's that not that they give bad advice. It's that all it is is advice. It's it's like a all it is is advice. It's it's like a all it is is advice. It's it's like a voice from heaven say try saying try voice from heaven say try saying try voice from heaven say try saying try harder. Um whereas I know for myself harder. Um whereas I know for myself harder. Um whereas I know for myself what I need is God coming down to my what I need is God coming down to my what I need is God coming down to my level to live my life and die my death level to live my life and die my death level to live my life and die my death and rise up again. And so that's that's and rise up again. And so that's that's and rise up again. And so that's that's why Christians insist on Jesus being why Christians insist on Jesus being why Christians insist on Jesus being divine. And and also it's it's kind of divine. And and also it's it's kind of divine. And and also it's it's kind of the place you get to when you read about the place you get to when you read about the place you get to when you read about Jesus. Have you read a gospel since

Jesus. Have you read a gospel since Jesus. Have you read a gospel since becoming an adult? Um, I know that when becoming an adult? Um, I know that when becoming an adult? Um, I know that when I read through the Gospels, I was I read through the Gospels, I was I read through the Gospels, I was expecting to meet a good teacher trying expecting to meet a good teacher trying expecting to meet a good teacher trying to show me the way. And instead, I was to show me the way. And instead, I was to show me the way. And instead, I was meeting this this laughing, shouting, meeting this this laughing, shouting, meeting this this laughing, shouting, crying, bleeding human sacrifice who is crying, bleeding human sacrifice who is crying, bleeding human sacrifice who is also claiming to be God. And on every also claiming to be God. And on every also claiming to be God. And on every page of of the gospels, he seems to make page of of the gospels, he seems to make page of of the gospels, he seems to make these kinds of divine claims. And it's these kinds of divine claims. And it's these kinds of divine claims. And it's the sort of thing that forces you to the sort of thing that forces you to the sort of thing that forces you to reconsider who God is as well as who reconsider who God is as well as who reconsider who God is as well as who Jesus is. And I think it's the most Jesus is. And I think it's the most Jesus is. And I think it's the most wonderful kind of reconfiguration you wonderful kind of reconfiguration you wonderful kind of reconfiguration you can have. That's that's what Christians can have. That's that's what Christians can have. That's that's what Christians mean by repentance to to kind of to mean by repentance to to kind of to mean by repentance to to kind of to rethink everything and go, "That's what rethink everything and go, "That's what rethink everything and go, "That's what God looks like. It looks like this one God looks like. It looks like this one God looks like. It looks like this one with arms outstretched to the world." with arms outstretched to the world." with arms outstretched to the world." And at that point, I'm like, "Well, if And at that point, I'm like, "Well, if And at that point, I'm like, "Well, if that's what God's like, I'm in." that's what God's like, I'm in." that's what God's like, I'm in." >> Yeah. I think that's exactly the way to >> Yeah. I think that's exactly the way to >> Yeah. I think that's exactly the way to go on that. And I I do think that our go on that. And I I do think that our go on that. And I I do think that our our 19th century liberal friends that our 19th century liberal friends that our 19th century liberal friends that that wanted to make Jesus a less than that wanted to make Jesus a less than that wanted to make Jesus a less than divine being were actually trying to divine being were actually trying to divine being were actually trying to make Christianity like every other world make Christianity like every other world make Christianity like every other world religion. And they they didn't they had religion. And they they didn't they had religion. And they they didn't they had no idea what they were undoing there.

no idea what they were undoing there. no idea what they were undoing there. That the uniqueness of Christianity is That the uniqueness of Christianity is That the uniqueness of Christianity is that God himself has to save us. And I that God himself has to save us. And I that God himself has to save us. And I do think you you pick it up in the most do think you you pick it up in the most do think you you pick it up in the most remarkable ways in the gospel because remarkable ways in the gospel because remarkable ways in the gospel because this man moves so comfortably amongst this man moves so comfortably amongst this man moves so comfortably amongst sinners and yet they they instinctively sinners and yet they they instinctively sinners and yet they they instinctively recognize that though he loves them, he recognize that though he loves them, he recognize that though he loves them, he is not like them. Uh and there's for for is not like them. Uh and there's for for is not like them. Uh and there's for for three centuries really really until you three centuries really really until you three centuries really really until you get to the time of Aras almost no one get to the time of Aras almost no one get to the time of Aras almost no one will question his divinity. they'll will question his divinity. they'll will question his divinity. they'll question his humanity in early question his humanity in early question his humanity in early Christianity, but they won't question Christianity, but they won't question Christianity, but they won't question his divinity for three centuries. Um, his divinity for three centuries. Um, his divinity for three centuries. Um, and and I I think it just it just jumps and and I I think it just it just jumps and and I I think it just it just jumps off the pages of the gospels. And just off the pages of the gospels. And just off the pages of the gospels. And just on that, I love that um there's a on that, I love that um there's a on that, I love that um there's a there's a place in Contra Arianos where there's a place in Contra Arianos where there's a place in Contra Arianos where where Athanasius kind of addresses Aras where Athanasius kind of addresses Aras where Athanasius kind of addresses Aras and and you know, Aras is saying that and and you know, Aras is saying that and and you know, Aras is saying that Jesus is is is a divine figure but but Jesus is is is a divine figure but but Jesus is is is a divine figure but but not one being with the father. and and not one being with the father. and and not one being with the father. and and Athanasia says to Aras, "My dear Aras, Athanasia says to Aras, "My dear Aras, Athanasia says to Aras, "My dear Aras, some words to this effect, um, you do some words to this effect, um, you do some words to this effect, um, you do not understand the grace of God." And I not understand the grace of God." And I not understand the grace of God." And I I just think that's really interesting I just think that's really interesting I just think that's really interesting like like the questions around the the like like the questions around the the like like the questions around the the divinity of Christ are actually divinity of Christ are actually divinity of Christ are actually questions about the grace of God and and questions about the grace of God and and questions about the grace of God and and vice versa.

vice versa. vice versa. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> And would you say the same for the >> And would you say the same for the >> And would you say the same for the skeptic uh who's saying, "Okay, well, I skeptic uh who's saying, "Okay, well, I skeptic uh who's saying, "Okay, well, I respect Jesus, too. I I I hear a lot respect Jesus, too. I I I hear a lot respect Jesus, too. I I I hear a lot about what you're saying, but but why do about what you're saying, but but why do about what you're saying, but but why do you Christians have to insist that he's you Christians have to insist that he's you Christians have to insist that he's the only way to God? the only way to God? the only way to God? >> You can answer that question and make it >> You can answer that question and make it >> You can answer that question and make it sound like Jesus is a really tiny little sound like Jesus is a really tiny little sound like Jesus is a really tiny little gateway into this much larger thing gateway into this much larger thing gateway into this much larger thing called God, right? And it can sound called God, right? And it can sound called God, right? And it can sound arbitrary and narrow and a bigoted arbitrary and narrow and a bigoted arbitrary and narrow and a bigoted fundamentalism to say Jesus is the only fundamentalism to say Jesus is the only fundamentalism to say Jesus is the only way to God when what you're way to God when what you're way to God when what you're communicating is little Jesus communicating is little Jesus communicating is little Jesus is the way to this much more expansive is the way to this much more expansive is the way to this much more expansive thing called God which is precisely what thing called God which is precisely what thing called God which is precisely what Aras and Athanasius were fighting over Aras and Athanasius were fighting over Aras and Athanasius were fighting over and Athanasius and Athanasius and Athanasius rightly wins the day by saying it's not rightly wins the day by saying it's not rightly wins the day by saying it's not little Jesus like Um the true light who little Jesus like Um the true light who little Jesus like Um the true light who enlightens everyone was coming into the enlightens everyone was coming into the enlightens everyone was coming into the world says John 1:9. He is the the logos world says John 1:9. He is the the logos world says John 1:9. He is the the logos who is in the bosom of the father. He is who is in the bosom of the father. He is who is in the bosom of the father. He is God from God, light from light, very God God from God, light from light, very God God from God, light from light, very God from very God. He is the one through from very God. He is the one through from very God. He is the one through whom all things were made. Um to talk whom all things were made. Um to talk whom all things were made. Um to talk about the exclusivity of Christ is about the exclusivity of Christ is about the exclusivity of Christ is another way of talking about the another way of talking about the another way of talking about the supremacy of Christ. We're talking about supremacy of Christ. We're talking about supremacy of Christ. We're talking about our maker when we're talking about our maker when we're talking about our maker when we're talking about Jesus. We're not just talking about a Jesus. We're not just talking about a Jesus. We're not just talking about a tiny little godlet called Jesus. That tiny little godlet called Jesus. That tiny little godlet called Jesus. That was that was Aras's problem. And and I'm was that was Aras's problem. And and I'm was that was Aras's problem. And and I'm afraid sometimes when Christians answer

afraid sometimes when Christians answer afraid sometimes when Christians answer this this this question, they can give this this this question, they can give this this this question, they can give they can give the impression that the they can give the impression that the they can give the impression that the exclusivity of Christ is, "Oh, it is a exclusivity of Christ is, "Oh, it is a exclusivity of Christ is, "Oh, it is a bit narrow and nasty, but we've got to bit narrow and nasty, but we've got to bit narrow and nasty, but we've got to lump it. It's the cost of being a lump it. It's the cost of being a lump it. It's the cost of being a Christian. It's the cost of joining the Christian. It's the cost of joining the Christian. It's the cost of joining the Jesus club." And I know I know it Jesus club." And I know I know it Jesus club." And I know I know it doesn't really make sense. Whereas, I doesn't really make sense. Whereas, I doesn't really make sense. Whereas, I think scripturally, how does John begin? think scripturally, how does John begin? think scripturally, how does John begin? In the beginning was the word. The word In the beginning was the word. The word In the beginning was the word. The word was with God. And the word was God. He was with God. And the word was God. He was with God. And the word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through was with God in the beginning. Through was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made. Without him, him all things were made. Without him, him all things were made. Without him, nothing was made that has been made. In nothing was made that has been made. In nothing was made that has been made. In him was life. And that life was the him was life. And that life was the him was life. And that life was the light of all mankind. Like the life that light of all mankind. Like the life that light of all mankind. Like the life that John describes in John's gospel. Again, John describes in John's gospel. Again, John describes in John's gospel. Again, we we detach the meaning of that word we we detach the meaning of that word we we detach the meaning of that word from Jesus. And we imagine it just means from Jesus. And we imagine it just means from Jesus. And we imagine it just means Willy Wonker's golden ticket. We imagine Willy Wonker's golden ticket. We imagine Willy Wonker's golden ticket. We imagine that life just means bliss in the ninth that life just means bliss in the ninth that life just means bliss in the ninth dimension. dimension. dimension. The the life that John is talking about The the life that John is talking about The the life that John is talking about is the eternal life of God. It's the is the eternal life of God. It's the is the eternal life of God. It's the eternal life of God. And so obviously eternal life of God. And so obviously eternal life of God. And so obviously the one who has been participating in the one who has been participating in the one who has been participating in eternal life filled with the spirit, God eternal life filled with the spirit, God eternal life filled with the spirit, God from God in the in the bosom of the from God in the in the bosom of the from God in the in the bosom of the father, the the one who has been father, the the one who has been father, the the one who has been enjoying that eternal life. He fully God enjoying that eternal life. He fully God enjoying that eternal life. He fully God comes to give it to little old Matt and comes to give it to little old Matt and comes to give it to little old Matt and little old Lig and little old Glenn and little old Lig and little old Glenn and little old Lig and little old Glenn and little old listener. And now we are in little old listener. And now we are in little old listener. And now we are in on the eternal life of God because Jesus on the eternal life of God because Jesus on the eternal life of God because Jesus himself is eternal life. So, it's not himself is eternal life. So, it's not himself is eternal life. So, it's not it's not that Jesus is this weird, it's not that Jesus is this weird, it's not that Jesus is this weird, arbitrary, minor detour arbitrary, minor detour arbitrary, minor detour that gets us to this other thing called that gets us to this other thing called that gets us to this other thing called God or eternal life or heaven. It's God or eternal life or heaven. It's God or eternal life or heaven. It's Jesus is heaven. Jesus is eternal life.

Jesus is heaven. Jesus is eternal life. Jesus is heaven. Jesus is eternal life. Jesus is God. And and that still doesn't Jesus is God. And and that still doesn't Jesus is God. And and that still doesn't solve the problem. Oh, that seems that, solve the problem. Oh, that seems that, solve the problem. Oh, that seems that, you know, I haven't seen things like you know, I haven't seen things like you know, I haven't seen things like that. And but then at that point, you that. And but then at that point, you that. And but then at that point, you just say, "Well, you need to meet Jesus just say, "Well, you need to meet Jesus just say, "Well, you need to meet Jesus because I don't see if you're reading because I don't see if you're reading because I don't see if you're reading through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I through Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John, I don't see how you can't see this guy don't see how you can't see this guy don't see how you can't see this guy walking on water. You don't think he's walking on water. You don't think he's walking on water. You don't think he's God. This this guy healing like this and God. This this guy healing like this and God. This this guy healing like this and speaking like that, you don't think he's speaking like that, you don't think he's speaking like that, you don't think he's eternal, man. If if he's not God, I eternal, man. If if he's not God, I eternal, man. If if he's not God, I don't know who God is." You know, that don't know who God is." You know, that don't know who God is." You know, that that that's the way to approach that. I that that's the way to approach that. I that that's the way to approach that. I think think think >> that's good. And that that means that >> that's good. And that that means that >> that's good. And that that means that when we meet the objection, when we meet the objection, when we meet the objection, how can you say that he's the only way? how can you say that he's the only way? how can you say that he's the only way? That what they're really saying is I That what they're really saying is I That what they're really saying is I want to be able to go to the God of my want to be able to go to the God of my want to be able to go to the God of my own imagination. own imagination. own imagination. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> Yeah. Right. >> You know, and and it's not that, oh >> You know, and and it's not that, oh >> You know, and and it's not that, oh well, I we all want to go to the to the well, I we all want to go to the to the well, I we all want to go to the to the true God. Why do we have to go through true God. Why do we have to go through true God. Why do we have to go through Jesus? No, you're you're really saying I Jesus? No, you're you're really saying I Jesus? No, you're you're really saying I I want to go to a different God. And you I want to go to a different God. And you I want to go to a different God. And you are in fact saying you don't want if you are in fact saying you don't want if you are in fact saying you don't want if you don't want to go to Jesus, you want to don't want to go to Jesus, you want to don't want to go to Jesus, you want to go to the true God that's not Jesus.

go to the true God that's not Jesus. go to the true God that's not Jesus. What are you saying about Jesus? There What are you saying about Jesus? There What are you saying about Jesus? There he is. He's there in front of you. Don't he is. He's there in front of you. Don't he is. He's there in front of you. Don't you want him? It's good. God's perfect you want him? It's good. God's perfect you want him? It's good. God's perfect man, man's perfect God. I think man, man's perfect God. I think man, man's perfect God. I think Augustine said, I I have read in Plato Augustine said, I I have read in Plato Augustine said, I I have read in Plato and Cicero many sayings, wise and and Cicero many sayings, wise and and Cicero many sayings, wise and beautiful, but never in either come to beautiful, but never in either come to beautiful, but never in either come to me all you who are weary and burdened me all you who are weary and burdened me all you who are weary and burdened and I will give you rest. Last question. and I will give you rest. Last question. and I will give you rest. Last question. Glenn, you mentioned bigoted Glenn, you mentioned bigoted Glenn, you mentioned bigoted fundamentalism. fundamentalism. fundamentalism. How is the Christian, the biblical How is the Christian, the biblical How is the Christian, the biblical sexual ethic not bigoted and harmful? sexual ethic not bigoted and harmful? sexual ethic not bigoted and harmful? Sex is powerful Sex is powerful Sex is powerful and therefore the the Bible insists on and therefore the the Bible insists on and therefore the the Bible insists on it being stewarded carefully and wisely. it being stewarded carefully and wisely. it being stewarded carefully and wisely. It's powerful. It's holy. It's It's powerful. It's holy. It's It's powerful. It's holy. It's dangerous. It's like fire. And there is dangerous. It's like fire. And there is dangerous. It's like fire. And there is one place in my house where you can one place in my house where you can one place in my house where you can light a fire safely. In the fireplace. light a fire safely. In the fireplace. light a fire safely. In the fireplace. If you light a fire anywhere else but in If you light a fire anywhere else but in If you light a fire anywhere else but in the fireplace, you will burn down my the fireplace, you will burn down my the fireplace, you will burn down my house. Um, and the Bible is just wise house. Um, and the Bible is just wise house. Um, and the Bible is just wise enough to say um something that's very enough to say um something that's very enough to say um something that's very different from what culture is saying.

different from what culture is saying. different from what culture is saying. Culture is saying sex is a leisure Culture is saying sex is a leisure Culture is saying sex is a leisure activity. And the Bible is like no, no, activity. And the Bible is like no, no, activity. And the Bible is like no, no, it's holy fire. It's holy fire. And it's holy fire. It's holy fire. And it's holy fire. It's holy fire. And there is a place for it. And it is a there is a place for it. And it is a there is a place for it. And it is a very exclusive place. And that might not very exclusive place. And that might not very exclusive place. And that might not jive with um the cultural narrative that jive with um the cultural narrative that jive with um the cultural narrative that we have around around inclusion. Um but we have around around inclusion. Um but we have around around inclusion. Um but I think our culture is speaking out both I think our culture is speaking out both I think our culture is speaking out both sides of its mouth when it talks about sides of its mouth when it talks about sides of its mouth when it talks about sex. I think our culture the the part sex. I think our culture the the part sex. I think our culture the the part that has really inherited from the that has really inherited from the that has really inherited from the Christian sexual ethic says that yeah Christian sexual ethic says that yeah Christian sexual ethic says that yeah consent is our highest ideal when it consent is our highest ideal when it consent is our highest ideal when it comes to sex. Um and that non-consensual comes to sex. Um and that non-consensual comes to sex. Um and that non-consensual sex is the worst thing that can ever sex is the worst thing that can ever sex is the worst thing that can ever happen to a person and Christians agree happen to a person and Christians agree happen to a person and Christians agree with that. But then at the same time the with that. But then at the same time the with that. But then at the same time the cultural narrative is but our bodies are cultural narrative is but our bodies are cultural narrative is but our bodies are like playgrounds like playgrounds like playgrounds and sex is a leisure activity and sex is a leisure activity and sex is a leisure activity and the Christian is trying to heal the and the Christian is trying to heal the and the Christian is trying to heal the cognitive dissonance of of the cognitive dissonance of of the cognitive dissonance of of the non-Christian at that point and say well non-Christian at that point and say well non-Christian at that point and say well pick one I either pick one I either pick one I either your body is like a temple and sex is your body is like a temple and sex is your body is like a temple and sex is very significant or your body is like a very significant or your body is like a very significant or your body is like a playground and sex is a leisure activity playground and sex is a leisure activity playground and sex is a leisure activity but when sex goes wrong you know that it but when sex goes wrong you know that it but when sex goes wrong you know that it is not a leisure activity. Like if is not a leisure activity. Like if is not a leisure activity. Like if leisure activities go wrong, you give it leisure activities go wrong, you give it leisure activities go wrong, you give it one star on Trip Adviser. Um if sex goes one star on Trip Adviser. Um if sex goes one star on Trip Adviser. Um if sex goes wrong in some of these ways, people go wrong in some of these ways, people go wrong in some of these ways, people go to prison and rightfully so. Sex is to prison and rightfully so. Sex is to prison and rightfully so. Sex is significant. Bodies are temples.

significant. Bodies are temples. significant. Bodies are temples. Gender is important. And I think the Gender is important. And I think the Gender is important. And I think the world is rewaking up to to that fact. world is rewaking up to to that fact. world is rewaking up to to that fact. And once you reweave together just those And once you reweave together just those And once you reweave together just those truths that my gendered embodied life is truths that my gendered embodied life is truths that my gendered embodied life is significant and my wife's gendered significant and my wife's gendered significant and my wife's gendered embodied life is significant, that sex embodied life is significant, that sex embodied life is significant, that sex is significant, that bodies are like is significant, that bodies are like is significant, that bodies are like temples, you reweave those things temples, you reweave those things temples, you reweave those things together. And when you put the needs of together. And when you put the needs of together. And when you put the needs of children ahead of the children ahead of the children ahead of the desires, attractions of parents, when desires, attractions of parents, when desires, attractions of parents, when you weave those things together, you get you weave those things together, you get you weave those things together, you get something like the Christian sexual something like the Christian sexual something like the Christian sexual ethic. And it has been for the utter ethic. And it has been for the utter ethic. And it has been for the utter blessing of the world. And I question blessing of the world. And I question blessing of the world. And I question whether the sexual revolution of the of whether the sexual revolution of the of whether the sexual revolution of the of the 1960s has done anything like as much the 1960s has done anything like as much the 1960s has done anything like as much for the world as the Jesus sexual for the world as the Jesus sexual for the world as the Jesus sexual revolution of the first century. revolution of the first century. revolution of the first century. >> Yeah. Amen. not just true, but beautiful >> Yeah. Amen. not just true, but beautiful >> Yeah. Amen. not just true, but beautiful and good. Uh Glenn, I've long been an and good. Uh Glenn, I've long been an and good. Uh Glenn, I've long been an admirer of your work and have benefited admirer of your work and have benefited admirer of your work and have benefited so much. Um I don't mean to embarrass so much. Um I don't mean to embarrass so much. Um I don't mean to embarrass you, uh but listeners should know that you, uh but listeners should know that you, uh but listeners should know that Wes Huff, um has publicly said that Wes Huff, um has publicly said that Wes Huff, um has publicly said that Glenn is one of the, if not currently Glenn is one of the, if not currently Glenn is one of the, if not currently the best living evangelists he knows of.

the best living evangelists he knows of. the best living evangelists he knows of. Um, so I really want to encourage Um, so I really want to encourage Um, so I really want to encourage pastors to uh look into Glenn's work, pastors to uh look into Glenn's work, pastors to uh look into Glenn's work, get a copy of the air we breathe 321, get a copy of the air we breathe 321, get a copy of the air we breathe 321, check out the 321 course on check out the 321 course on check out the 321 course on 321course.com 321course.com 321course.com and subscribe to the Speak Life YouTube and subscribe to the Speak Life YouTube and subscribe to the Speak Life YouTube channel. Um, and while you're at it, channel. Um, and while you're at it, channel. Um, and while you're at it, pick up a copy of the new TGC video pick up a copy of the new TGC video pick up a copy of the new TGC video curriculum, Making Sense of Us. Glenn, curriculum, Making Sense of Us. Glenn, curriculum, Making Sense of Us. Glenn, thanks so much for joining us and thanks so much for joining us and thanks so much for joining us and serving pastors today. serving pastors today. serving pastors today. >> Thank you for embarrassing me, Matt. >> Thank you for embarrassing me, Matt. >> Thank you for embarrassing me, Matt. all the way across the pond. all the way across the pond. all the way across the pond. >> And thanks, League, too. >> And thanks, League, too. >> And thanks, League, too. >> Great to be with you, Glenn. >> Great to be with you, Glenn. >> Great to be with you, Glenn. >> Thank you all for joining in to this >> Thank you all for joining in to this >> Thank you all for joining in to this episode of the Everyday Pastor. We hope episode of the Everyday Pastor. We hope episode of the Everyday Pastor. We hope it's been useful to you. Uh please it's been useful to you. Uh please it's been useful to you. Uh please recommend it to a friend so that we can recommend it to a friend so that we can recommend it to a friend so that we can all understand the culture we inhabit all understand the culture we inhabit all understand the culture we inhabit and know how best to reach it with the and know how best to reach it with the and know how best to reach it with the good news of Jesus Christ. Thanks for good news of Jesus Christ. Thanks for good news of Jesus Christ. Thanks for listening.