Andrew Wilson Wants to Help You Pursue Happiness [Gospelbound Ep. 186]

As a general rule, trees, As a general rule, trees, wide open [music] spaces, children, wide open [music] spaces, children, wide open [music] spaces, children, hugs make you much happier than screens, hugs make you much happier than screens, hugs make you much happier than screens, money, money, money, but you know, things which but you know, things which but you know, things which >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> There are things which in themselves >> There are things which in themselves >> There are things which in themselves present so you have to deal with them. present so you have to deal with them. present so you have to deal with them. You have to interact with them. We're You have to interact with them. We're You have to interact with them. We're talking on the screen now. You have to talking on the screen now. You have to talking on the screen now. You have to think about money, of course you do. But think about money, of course you do. But think about money, of course you do. But the but the things that you're often the but the things that you're often the but the things that you're often drawn to do and the things that actually drawn to do and the things that actually drawn to do and the things that actually make you happier are often not the same make you happier are often not the same make you happier are often not the same and I think learning what they are and and I think learning what they are and and I think learning what they are and then making habits out of it is really then making habits out of it is really then making habits out of it is really fruitful. >> Andrew Wilson is one of the happiest >> Andrew Wilson is one of the happiest guys I know. So, it only makes sense guys I know. So, it only makes sense guys I know. So, it only makes sense that he would write a book called that he would write a book called that he would write a book called happiness, what it is, where to find it happiness, what it is, where to find it happiness, what it is, where to find it and how to make it last forever, and how to make it last forever, and how to make it last forever, published by Crossway. After all, he's published by Crossway. After all, he's published by Crossway. After all, he's the expert. I am delighted when I see the expert. I am delighted when I see the expert. I am delighted when I see Andrew at a TGC conference or a retreat Andrew at a TGC conference or a retreat Andrew at a TGC conference or a retreat for the Keller Center for cultural for the Keller Center for cultural for the Keller Center for cultural apologetics. I look forward to every apologetics. I look forward to every apologetics. I look forward to every chance to spend time with him. He writes chance to spend time with him. He writes chance to spend time with him. He writes in this book, quote, "Nothing is more in this book, quote, "Nothing is more in this book, quote, "Nothing is more honoring to a friend, a child, or a honoring to a friend, a child, or a honoring to a friend, a child, or a spouse than saying they make you happy.

spouse than saying they make you happy. spouse than saying they make you happy. Nothing is more demeaning to them than Nothing is more demeaning to them than Nothing is more demeaning to them than telling them that they don't." telling them that they don't." telling them that they don't." Well, I can say to Andrew here with no Well, I can say to Andrew here with no Well, I can say to Andrew here with no reservation, he makes me happy when reservation, he makes me happy when reservation, he makes me happy when we're together. we're together. we're together. Okay. Okay. Okay. But where does that leave the rest of us But where does that leave the rest of us But where does that leave the rest of us if we're not naturally happy? If we're if we're not naturally happy? If we're if we're not naturally happy? If we're not feeling happy right now? If we're not feeling happy right now? If we're not feeling happy right now? If we're not hanging out with Andrew? Well, the not hanging out with Andrew? Well, the not hanging out with Andrew? Well, the Declaration of Independence 250 years Declaration of Independence 250 years Declaration of Independence 250 years ago put happiness at the center of ago put happiness at the center of ago put happiness at the center of life's aim. We hold these truths to be life's aim. We hold these truths to be life's aim. We hold these truths to be self-evident that all men are created self-evident that all men are created self-evident that all men are created equal and they are they are endowed by equal and they are they are endowed by equal and they are they are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable their creator with certain unalienable their creator with certain unalienable rights. That among these are life, rights. That among these are life, rights. That among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. Well, Andrew covered that statement in Well, Andrew covered that statement in Well, Andrew covered that statement in his excellent earlier book, Remaking the his excellent earlier book, Remaking the his excellent earlier book, Remaking the World, How 1776 Created the World, How 1776 Created the World, How 1776 Created the Post-Christian West. Post-Christian West. Post-Christian West. Well, given this anniversary, I plan in Well, given this anniversary, I plan in Well, given this anniversary, I plan in this interview to sneak in a question or this interview to sneak in a question or this interview to sneak in a question or two about that fateful year. And we'll two about that fateful year. And we'll two about that fateful year. And we'll discuss much more, including the discuss much more, including the discuss much more, including the difference between joy and happiness, difference between joy and happiness, difference between joy and happiness, whether God promises happiness, and why whether God promises happiness, and why whether God promises happiness, and why millennials grew up to be sad. Andrew, millennials grew up to be sad. Andrew, millennials grew up to be sad. Andrew, thanks for coming back. Thanks for thanks for coming back. Thanks for thanks for coming back. Thanks for joining me again on Gospel Bound.

joining me again on Gospel Bound. joining me again on Gospel Bound. >> Thanks. Thank you very much. You've >> Thanks. Thank you very much. You've >> Thanks. Thank you very much. You've really set me up now just to be a really set me up now just to be a really set me up now just to be a permanent like the Cheshire Cat's just permanent like the Cheshire Cat's just permanent like the Cheshire Cat's just nothing but a grin nothing but a grin nothing but a grin >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> in every introduction to everyone who >> in every introduction to everyone who >> in every introduction to everyone who listens to this. But, yes, thank you listens to this. But, yes, thank you listens to this. But, yes, thank you very much. very much. very much. >> Well, I I said all that nice stuff, >> Well, I I said all that nice stuff, >> Well, I I said all that nice stuff, Andrew, but why do I want to read a book Andrew, but why do I want to read a book Andrew, but why do I want to read a book about happiness from one of the happiest about happiness from one of the happiest about happiness from one of the happiest guys I know? I want maybe to hear from guys I know? I want maybe to hear from guys I know? I want maybe to hear from someone who really struggles with it and someone who really struggles with it and someone who really struggles with it and has [laughter] overcome it. Explain has [laughter] overcome it. Explain has [laughter] overcome it. Explain yourself. yourself. yourself. >> Yeah, I mean it I I warn about that >> Yeah, I mean it I I warn about that >> Yeah, I mean it I I warn about that actually that we get very start of the actually that we get very start of the actually that we get very start of the book. I do I know that there is a in book. I do I know that there is a in book. I do I know that there is a in fact one of the things I would go into a fact one of the things I would go into a fact one of the things I would go into a fair bit in the book is the role that fair bit in the book is the role that fair bit in the book is the role that temperament and disposition play and temperament and disposition play and temperament and disposition play and even brain chemistry and those sorts of even brain chemistry and those sorts of even brain chemistry and those sorts of things. things. things. And I do think it's really significant. And I do think it's really significant. And I do think it's really significant. I I I think one of the ways in which I I I I think one of the ways in which I I I I think one of the ways in which I can hopefully offset that and partly you can hopefully offset that and partly you can hopefully offset that and partly you admitted, but I think is to say that the admitted, but I think is to say that the admitted, but I think is to say that the temperamental temperamental temperamental qualities of many of the people who've qualities of many of the people who've qualities of many of the people who've written best on this subject are wildly written best on this subject are wildly written best on this subject are wildly different. So, I think you different. So, I think you different. So, I think you I think if you were to take St. I think if you were to take St. I think if you were to take St. Augustine and Jonathan Edwards and John Augustine and Jonathan Edwards and John Augustine and Jonathan Edwards and John Piper and me, I'm not putting myself in Piper and me, I'm not putting myself in Piper and me, I'm not putting myself in any other respect in the same company as any other respect in the same company as any other respect in the same company as those guys. I think you would find very those guys. I think you would find very those guys. I think you would find very temperamentally different characters and temperamentally different characters and temperamentally different characters and I think the same is true if you look I think the same is true if you look I think the same is true if you look through even in scripture the through even in scripture the through even in scripture the I mean you have to be a little bit I mean you have to be a little bit I mean you have to be a little bit careful to psychoanalyze the writers of careful to psychoanalyze the writers of careful to psychoanalyze the writers of scripture, but the people who talk about scripture, but the people who talk about scripture, but the people who talk about joy I don't joy I don't joy I don't I don't get the impression that Paul is I don't get the impression that Paul is I don't get the impression that Paul is just a sort of he's not just a sunny just a sort of he's not just a sunny just a sort of he's not just a sunny character. I mean it's I think for him character. I mean it's I think for him character. I mean it's I think for him is it there's a there's obviously a deep is it there's a there's obviously a deep is it there's a there's obviously a deep intensity to the man. I think he would intensity to the man. I think he would intensity to the man. I think he would have been sometimes quite spiky, edgy have been sometimes quite spiky, edgy have been sometimes quite spiky, edgy company if we were just hanging out, I company if we were just hanging out, I company if we were just hanging out, I would think.

would think. would think. But, you get this incredibly rich But, you get this incredibly rich But, you get this incredibly rich experience of joy with him and then you experience of joy with him and then you experience of joy with him and then you get some other characters you think this get some other characters you think this get some other characters you think this probably is partly temperamental and probably is partly temperamental and probably is partly temperamental and others where you go no, this is This is others where you go no, this is This is others where you go no, this is This is is a very different you know, this is is a very different you know, this is is a very different you know, this is not naturally who you are, but you found not naturally who you are, but you found not naturally who you are, but you found it in God. And so, I think what what I'm it in God. And so, I think what what I'm it in God. And so, I think what what I'm wanting to write about is something that wanting to write about is something that wanting to write about is something that we can all participate in and something we can all participate in and something we can all participate in and something we're all drawn together to the we're all drawn together to the we're all drawn together to the happiness ultimately that's found in happiness ultimately that's found in happiness ultimately that's found in God. But, I do think that there are a God. But, I do think that there are a God. But, I do think that there are a lot of day-to-day things, ordinary life lot of day-to-day things, ordinary life lot of day-to-day things, ordinary life decisions, that many of us can make that decisions, that many of us can make that decisions, that many of us can make that might not seem explicitly theological, might not seem explicitly theological, might not seem explicitly theological, but they nevertheless nevertheless can but they nevertheless nevertheless can but they nevertheless nevertheless can significantly increase our happiness and significantly increase our happiness and significantly increase our happiness and joy in ordinary life. And I wanted to joy in ordinary life. And I wanted to joy in ordinary life. And I wanted to write about that alongside the write about that alongside the write about that alongside the theological case for joy, which I think theological case for joy, which I think theological case for joy, which I think many of us would be more familiar with. many of us would be more familiar with. many of us would be more familiar with. And I in the end concluded that the fact And I in the end concluded that the fact And I in the end concluded that the fact that I am quite a cheerful person wasn't that I am quite a cheerful person wasn't that I am quite a cheerful person wasn't a good enough reason not to write about a good enough reason not to write about a good enough reason not to write about it. it. it. >> You you provoked a whole different >> You you provoked a whole different >> You you provoked a whole different question that I hadn't thought about. question that I hadn't thought about. question that I hadn't thought about. Biblically speaking or in Christian Biblically speaking or in Christian Biblically speaking or in Christian history, history, history, who would be some people who stand out who would be some people who stand out who would be some people who stand out for their happiness? for their happiness? for their happiness? >> Oh, actually that is Oh, man. That's you >> Oh, actually that is Oh, man. That's you >> Oh, actually that is Oh, man. That's you That's difficult because I think the way That's difficult because I think the way That's difficult because I think the way in which people articulate things across in which people articulate things across in which people articulate things across different centuries is different centuries is different centuries is is naturally is quite different, isn't is naturally is quite different, isn't is naturally is quite different, isn't it? I think And also, I think the amount it? I think And also, I think the amount it? I think And also, I think the amount of suffering and just anguish that many of suffering and just anguish that many of suffering and just anguish that many of our forefathers would have of our forefathers would have of our forefathers would have experienced experienced experienced I mean, I would I think Charles I mean, I would I think Charles I mean, I would I think Charles Spurgeon, if I can use him, seems to me Spurgeon, if I can use him, seems to me Spurgeon, if I can use him, seems to me like a pretty breezy I mean, he's always like a pretty breezy I mean, he's always like a pretty breezy I mean, he's always as a as a preacher, he's very you in as a as a preacher, he's very you in as a as a preacher, he's very you in some ways is intense, some ways is intense, some ways is intense, but I think he's intense in his sort of but I think he's intense in his sort of but I think he's intense in his sort of his florid language and his biblical

his florid language and his biblical his florid language and his biblical passion, passion, passion, but I think he would have been a lot of but I think he would have been a lot of but I think he would have been a lot of fun. Sorry? fun. Sorry? fun. Sorry? >> But also but also depressed. >> But also but also depressed. >> But also but also depressed. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Sure. >> Interesting. Those two things can >> Interesting. Those two things can >> Interesting. Those two things can coexist in some way. coexist in some way. coexist in some way. >> And I talk about that in the book as >> And I talk about that in the book as >> And I talk about that in the book as well. I I think he would have been a I well. I I think he would have been a I well. I I think he would have been a I think he would have been a lot of fun. think he would have been a lot of fun. think he would have been a lot of fun. Um and Um and Um and >> David seems >> David seems >> David seems David seems happy. David seems happy. David seems happy. King David way. King David way. King David way. >> Yeah, King David. >> Yeah, King David. >> Yeah, King David. >> Yeah, I mean, and but this is This is >> Yeah, I mean, and but this is This is >> Yeah, I mean, and but this is This is one of the things I mean, we'll get into one of the things I mean, we'll get into one of the things I mean, we'll get into this straight away because I think this this straight away because I think this this straight away because I think this is one of the things you see throughout is one of the things you see throughout is one of the things you see throughout the Bible and throughout when you read a the Bible and throughout when you read a the Bible and throughout when you read a lot of a few individuals, you I to be lot of a few individuals, you I to be lot of a few individuals, you I to be honest, I probably haven't maxed out on honest, I probably haven't maxed out on honest, I probably haven't maxed out on enough individuals in church history to enough individuals in church history to enough individuals in church history to have a fully rounded sense of their have a fully rounded sense of their have a fully rounded sense of their disposition really. Um and ways of disposition really. Um and ways of disposition really. Um and ways of expressing it vary a lot from generation expressing it vary a lot from generation expressing it vary a lot from generation to generation, but definitely one of the to generation, but definitely one of the to generation, but definitely one of the things you find is that some of the things you find is that some of the things you find is that some of the people who express the greatest joys people who express the greatest joys people who express the greatest joys also express the greatest sorrows. And I also express the greatest sorrows. And I also express the greatest sorrows. And I think one of the mistakes which I try think one of the mistakes which I try think one of the mistakes which I try and challenge in the book is the idea and challenge in the book is the idea and challenge in the book is the idea that if you are that happy people are that if you are that happy people are that if you are that happy people are never sad, or that sad people are never sad, or that sad people are never sad, or that sad people are that grief is incompatible with joy. that grief is incompatible with joy. that grief is incompatible with joy. Whereas Paul talks sorrowful yet always Whereas Paul talks sorrowful yet always Whereas Paul talks sorrowful yet always rejoicing. Jesus says flourishing are rejoicing. Jesus says flourishing are rejoicing. Jesus says flourishing are those who mourn, or happy are those who those who mourn, or happy are those who those who mourn, or happy are those who mourn. You think, what kind of paradox mourn. You think, what kind of paradox mourn. You think, what kind of paradox world is this? But it is actually true.

world is this? But it is actually true. world is this? But it is actually true. It's We tend to think happiness is at It's We tend to think happiness is at It's We tend to think happiness is at one end of the spectrum, crying is at one end of the spectrum, crying is at one end of the spectrum, crying is at the other. But actually happy people cry the other. But actually happy people cry the other. But actually happy people cry more because they experience bigger more because they experience bigger more because they experience bigger highs and lows, deeper expression, highs and lows, deeper expression, highs and lows, deeper expression, deeper emotion. deeper emotion. deeper emotion. And the And they are both at the And the And they are both at the And the And they are both at the opposite end of the spectrum to someone opposite end of the spectrum to someone opposite end of the spectrum to someone who is almost listless, apathetic, who is almost listless, apathetic, who is almost listless, apathetic, emotionally detached, unengaged, emotionally detached, unengaged, emotionally detached, unengaged, cauterized, um bland. And And those are cauterized, um bland. And And those are cauterized, um bland. And And those are the things that to actually to stave off the things that to actually to stave off the things that to actually to stave off in the in the Christian life. So, and in the in the Christian life. So, and in the in the Christian life. So, and obviously and that's it. You say Jesus. obviously and that's it. You say Jesus. obviously and that's it. You say Jesus. I think Chesterton's a very happy guy. I think Chesterton's a very happy guy. I think Chesterton's a very happy guy. Uh that might just be cuz he wrote about Uh that might just be cuz he wrote about Uh that might just be cuz he wrote about it a lot. I think Lewis is a happy guy, it a lot. I think Lewis is a happy guy, it a lot. I think Lewis is a happy guy, but again, maybe that's because he wrote but again, maybe that's because he wrote but again, maybe that's because he wrote about it a lot. I don't know, right? I I about it a lot. I don't know, right? I I about it a lot. I don't know, right? I I think Edwards think Edwards think Edwards >> Edwards wrote about it a lot, and I >> Edwards wrote about it a lot, and I >> Edwards wrote about it a lot, and I don't think anybody would think Edwards don't think anybody would think Edwards don't think anybody would think Edwards was a happy [laughter] guy. No, most was a happy [laughter] guy. No, most was a happy [laughter] guy. No, most likely. likely. likely. >> No, and and but this A lot of this is >> No, and and but this A lot of this is >> No, and and but this A lot of this is just intergenerationally just intergenerationally just intergenerationally difficult. I think the person who would difficult. I think the person who would difficult. I think the person who would probably make you laugh the most in some probably make you laugh the most in some probably make you laugh the most in some ways if you were sitting with them might ways if you were sitting with them might ways if you were sitting with them might that I know of has been Martin Luther, that I know of has been Martin Luther, that I know of has been Martin Luther, but that's because he's such a but that's because he's such a but that's because he's such a a kind of spiky, controversial, witty a kind of spiky, controversial, witty a kind of spiky, controversial, witty man. Not necessarily because he's a man. Not necessarily because he's a man. Not necessarily because he's a barrel of laughs as a sunny disposition.

barrel of laughs as a sunny disposition. barrel of laughs as a sunny disposition. So, I don't know. It's hard to know. So, I don't know. It's hard to know. So, I don't know. It's hard to know. >> Uh well, I just hadn't really thought >> Uh well, I just hadn't really thought >> Uh well, I just hadn't really thought about it before, but when you started about it before, but when you started about it before, but when you started working through Augustine and Edwards to working through Augustine and Edwards to working through Augustine and Edwards to Piper, I thought, well, you're you're Piper, I thought, well, you're you're Piper, I thought, well, you're you're totally right. There's different totally right. There's different totally right. There's different personalities here, and yet still personalities here, and yet still personalities here, and yet still writing about um this theme of writing about um this theme of writing about um this theme of happiness. Now, uh is there a difference happiness. Now, uh is there a difference happiness. Now, uh is there a difference between joy and happiness? between joy and happiness? between joy and happiness? >> I don't really think so. No. I think I I >> I don't really think so. No. I think I I >> I don't really think so. No. I think I I try to make the case I I know why people try to make the case I I know why people try to make the case I I know why people say there is, and I think I try and give say there is, and I think I try and give say there is, and I think I try and give that that that it's it's the day in court in a way. I it's it's the day in court in a way. I it's it's the day in court in a way. I try and I think a good faith reading of try and I think a good faith reading of try and I think a good faith reading of someone who says, and lots of people, someone who says, and lots of people, someone who says, and lots of people, good friends of mine who are really good friends of mine who are really good friends of mine who are really thoughtful people have made the case for thoughtful people have made the case for thoughtful people have made the case for this, and I I would hear them out and this, and I I would hear them out and this, and I I would hear them out and then say, I think I know what you're then say, I think I know what you're then say, I think I know what you're trying to express. I think you're trying trying to express. I think you're trying trying to express. I think you're trying to say there is a version of this to say there is a version of this to say there is a version of this emotion that is thin emotion that is thin emotion that is thin and anemic and temporary and trivial and and anemic and temporary and trivial and and anemic and temporary and trivial and not very valuable, although we know that not very valuable, although we know that not very valuable, although we know that it nevertheless makes us feel better. it nevertheless makes us feel better. it nevertheless makes us feel better. And there is another version of it that And there is another version of it that And there is another version of it that even when circumstances are very hard is even when circumstances are very hard is even when circumstances are very hard is nevertheless the sort of deep well or nevertheless the sort of deep well or nevertheless the sort of deep well or resource of delight and resource of delight and resource of delight and an uplift emotionally, which is an uplift emotionally, which is an uplift emotionally, which is extremely important thing. And if you extremely important thing. And if you extremely important thing. And if you are ever given the choice, you want to are ever given the choice, you want to are ever given the choice, you want to prioritize the deep over the shallow.

prioritize the deep over the shallow. prioritize the deep over the shallow. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. That's definitely true. And and not just definitely true, we we And and not just definitely true, we we And and not just definitely true, we we must contend for it because the must contend for it because the must contend for it because the Christian life, we are not in control at Christian life, we are not in control at Christian life, we are not in control at all of the shallow thing. And if we all of the shallow thing. And if we all of the shallow thing. And if we chase the shallow thing at the expense chase the shallow thing at the expense chase the shallow thing at the expense of the deep, then I mean that's in many of the deep, then I mean that's in many of the deep, then I mean that's in many ways what someone like the prophet ways what someone like the prophet ways what someone like the prophet Jeremiah is warning us against in saying Jeremiah is warning us against in saying Jeremiah is warning us against in saying you've you've you've not taken the you've you've you've not taken the you've you've you've not taken the you've got broken cisterns. You've you've got broken cisterns. You've you've got broken cisterns. You've basically traded God for shallow things basically traded God for shallow things basically traded God for shallow things that don't profit. So, that's really that don't profit. So, that's really that don't profit. So, that's really important, but I don't think that joy important, but I don't think that joy important, but I don't think that joy versus happiness is a good way of versus happiness is a good way of versus happiness is a good way of framing it, and I think it actually framing it, and I think it actually framing it, and I think it actually leads us into a lot of cul-de-sacs if we leads us into a lot of cul-de-sacs if we leads us into a lot of cul-de-sacs if we do, because it means two things. It do, because it means two things. It do, because it means two things. It means that happiness language in means that happiness language in means that happiness language in scripture scripture scripture or language of pleasure or language of pleasure or language of pleasure you know, in your presence is fullness you know, in your presence is fullness you know, in your presence is fullness of joy, at your right hand are pleasures of joy, at your right hand are pleasures of joy, at your right hand are pleasures forever. We end up making a mess of forever. We end up making a mess of forever. We end up making a mess of verses like that because the psalmist is verses like that because the psalmist is verses like that because the psalmist is clearly using them as rhyming terms. And clearly using them as rhyming terms. And clearly using them as rhyming terms. And if we're inclined to scream out, oh, no, if we're inclined to scream out, oh, no, if we're inclined to scream out, oh, no, I don't need pleasure, don't need don't I don't need pleasure, don't need don't I don't need pleasure, don't need don't need happiness, don't need is that's all need happiness, don't need is that's all need happiness, don't need is that's all frothy. You think, no, no, no, the Bible frothy. You think, no, no, no, the Bible frothy. You think, no, no, no, the Bible doesn't seem to think that way. So, doesn't seem to think that way. So, doesn't seem to think that way. So, that's one misunderstanding we get. that's one misunderstanding we get. that's one misunderstanding we get. And then the other one is that you're And then the other one is that you're And then the other one is that you're almost the the of joy you seek, you're almost the the of joy you seek, you're almost the the of joy you seek, you're not expecting it to actually make you not expecting it to actually make you not expecting it to actually make you I don't know, upbeat, positive, I don't know, upbeat, positive, I don't know, upbeat, positive, delighted at all. You're going, "Oh, delighted at all. You're going, "Oh, delighted at all. You're going, "Oh, it's I mean, there's a the guy where he it's I mean, there's a the guy where he it's I mean, there's a the guy where he A guy came in our church and admitted A guy came in our church and admitted A guy came in our church and admitted he's a charismatic church where this he's a charismatic church where this he's a charismatic church where this kind of thing happened. But, he jumps up kind of thing happened. But, he jumps up kind of thing happened. But, he jumps up onto the stage during an eldership onto the stage during an eldership onto the stage during an eldership induction. And and he did just kind of induction. And and he did just kind of induction. And and he did just kind of say, "I just want to pray, lay hands on say, "I just want to pray, lay hands on say, "I just want to pray, lay hands on these guys, and pray for them." And it these guys, and pray for them." And it these guys, and pray for them." And it starts praying. We're like, "What's starts praying. We're like, "What's starts praying. We're like, "What's going to happen?" And he starts praying going to happen?" And he starts praying going to happen?" And he starts praying for them. And he said, "Lord, we just for them. And he said, "Lord, we just for them. And he said, "Lord, we just want to ask for joy and a joy that want to ask for joy and a joy that want to ask for joy and a joy that reaches the face."

reaches the face." reaches the face." Because what he means is, of course, a Because what he means is, of course, a Because what he means is, of course, a lot of people have this joy that's so lot of people have this joy that's so lot of people have this joy that's so deep you can't see it. And I think again deep you can't see it. And I think again deep you can't see it. And I think again to ex- to for Christians to live life to ex- to for Christians to live life to ex- to for Christians to live life thinking, "Well, I'm I'm not very happy, thinking, "Well, I'm I'm not very happy, thinking, "Well, I'm I'm not very happy, but I've got joy." You think, "Well, but I've got joy." You think, "Well, but I've got joy." You think, "Well, that that's not what you That's not what that that's not what you That's not what that that's not what you That's not what you see in Paul. That's This The joy you see in Paul. That's This The joy you see in Paul. That's This The joy that he has causes his soul to soar. It that he has causes his soul to soar. It that he has causes his soul to soar. It causes him you want to sing, to delight, causes him you want to sing, to delight, causes him you want to sing, to delight, and to rejoice. And so, I think at on and to rejoice. And so, I think at on and to rejoice. And so, I think at on both sides, there is a danger of both sides, there is a danger of both sides, there is a danger of mistaking of separating them too much mistaking of separating them too much mistaking of separating them too much and acting as if they're referring to and acting as if they're referring to and acting as if they're referring to different things. I just don't think different things. I just don't think different things. I just don't think that's biblical. I don't think it's that's biblical. I don't think it's that's biblical. I don't think it's pastorally helpful. pastorally helpful. pastorally helpful. >> And just to make it even more simple, >> And just to make it even more simple, >> And just to make it even more simple, you argue in the book that we are you argue in the book that we are you argue in the book that we are translating terms into English different translating terms into English different translating terms into English different words that are the same biblical words that are the same biblical words that are the same biblical original words, right? original words, right? original words, right? >> Yeah, we have about 50 happiness words >> Yeah, we have about 50 happiness words >> Yeah, we have about 50 happiness words in English. Um and many of them seem in in English. Um and many of them seem in in English. Um and many of them seem in and and we've got more than biblical and and we've got more than biblical and and we've got more than biblical Hebrew or biblical Greek, although there Hebrew or biblical Greek, although there Hebrew or biblical Greek, although there are quite a lot of those. are quite a lot of those. are quite a lot of those. And English is a very rich language And English is a very rich language And English is a very rich language because we've it's a mongrel of so many because we've it's a mongrel of so many because we've it's a mongrel of so many different other languages. So, we have a different other languages. So, we have a different other languages. So, we have a lot more words to our our disposal. But, lot more words to our our disposal. But, lot more words to our our disposal. But, I think a lot of them words we use are I think a lot of them words we use are I think a lot of them words we use are not technically distinguishable from not technically distinguishable from not technically distinguishable from each other, and there's no direct each other, and there's no direct each other, and there's no direct one-to-one correspondence with the one-to-one correspondence with the one-to-one correspondence with the biblical term. So, yeah, I think that's biblical term. So, yeah, I think that's biblical term. So, yeah, I think that's important, too. And I do think that important, too. And I do think that important, too. And I do think that there are different nuances to lots of there are different nuances to lots of there are different nuances to lots of happiness words. I think we know that happiness words. I think we know that happiness words. I think we know that there is a difference between, say, there is a difference between, say, there is a difference between, say, contentment and merriment. Those two are contentment and merriment. Those two are contentment and merriment. Those two are happiness words that we clearly know happiness words that we clearly know happiness words that we clearly know that they we would expect one of them to that they we would expect one of them to that they we would expect one of them to feel more restful. And feel more restful. And feel more restful. And huh, and the other one to feel more yay.

huh, and the other one to feel more yay. huh, and the other one to feel more yay. And you know, so we've got we get that. And you know, so we've got we get that. And you know, so we've got we get that. So, I'm not saying all happiness words So, I'm not saying all happiness words So, I'm not saying all happiness words are exactly the same in their in their are exactly the same in their in their are exactly the same in their in their focus, but I do think we have to be focus, but I do think we have to be focus, but I do think we have to be careful for linguistic as well as careful for linguistic as well as careful for linguistic as well as pastoral and theological reasons not to pastoral and theological reasons not to pastoral and theological reasons not to just not to draw too sharp distinctions just not to draw too sharp distinctions just not to draw too sharp distinctions between them as if joy is spiritual but between them as if joy is spiritual but between them as if joy is spiritual but doesn't affect your mood and happiness doesn't affect your mood and happiness doesn't affect your mood and happiness affects your mood but isn't spiritual. I affects your mood but isn't spiritual. I affects your mood but isn't spiritual. I don't know if that's healthy. don't know if that's healthy. don't know if that's healthy. >> So, related to this then, does God >> So, related to this then, does God >> So, related to this then, does God promise happiness to Christians? promise happiness to Christians? promise happiness to Christians? >> Yes, I mean I think on the basis on I I >> Yes, I mean I think on the basis on I I >> Yes, I mean I think on the basis on I I think this think this think this So, again, depends on the English words So, again, depends on the English words So, again, depends on the English words you use to translate it, but so in the you use to translate it, but so in the you use to translate it, but so in the translation a lot of us would use translation a lot of us would use translation a lot of us would use the punchline at the end of the parable the punchline at the end of the parable the punchline at the end of the parable in Matthew 25, "Come and share your in Matthew 25, "Come and share your in Matthew 25, "Come and share your master's happiness." Which is just a master's happiness." Which is just a master's happiness." Which is just a beautiful promise at two levels. beautiful promise at two levels. beautiful promise at two levels. Obviously, it it's a come and Obviously, it it's a come and Obviously, it it's a come and effectively is an invitation to effectively is an invitation to effectively is an invitation to happiness for us, but it's also an happiness for us, but it's also an happiness for us, but it's also an invitation to share in God's happiness. invitation to share in God's happiness. invitation to share in God's happiness. And so, I think the happiness of God And so, I think the happiness of God And so, I think the happiness of God as well as the happiness that we have as well as the happiness that we have as well as the happiness that we have when we come and share in his happiness when we come and share in his happiness when we come and share in his happiness are both beautiful promises. And I think are both beautiful promises. And I think are both beautiful promises. And I think we can then broaden out from that, and we can then broaden out from that, and we can then broaden out from that, and if we if we if we buy what I've just said that happiness buy what I've just said that happiness buy what I've just said that happiness and joy are nowhere near as sharply and joy are nowhere near as sharply and joy are nowhere near as sharply distinguished as we often imply they distinguished as we often imply they distinguished as we often imply they are, then we would say, "You know, ask are, then we would say, "You know, ask are, then we would say, "You know, ask of me and your joy will be full." He's of me and your joy will be full." He's of me and your joy will be full." He's not just I'm promising you some a bit of not just I'm promising you some a bit of not just I'm promising you some a bit of joy. I'm promising to fill you up with joy. I'm promising to fill you up with joy. I'm promising to fill you up with joy, and this is what my hope for you, joy, and this is what my hope for you, joy, and this is what my hope for you, and it's a fruit of the spirit. And so, and it's a fruit of the spirit. And so, and it's a fruit of the spirit. And so, absolutely, I at least if you buy absolutely, I at least if you buy absolutely, I at least if you buy anything like what I've just said about anything like what I've just said about anything like what I've just said about happiness and joy being largely happiness and joy being largely happiness and joy being largely interchangeable, I think delight, interchangeable, I think delight, interchangeable, I think delight, pleasure, rejoicing, happiness, these pleasure, rejoicing, happiness, these pleasure, rejoicing, happiness, these things are promised to us in Christ by a

things are promised to us in Christ by a things are promised to us in Christ by a happy God. And he has sent us his spirit happy God. And he has sent us his spirit happy God. And he has sent us his spirit to bring us into the happiness of to bring us into the happiness of to bring us into the happiness of the Father. So, I think that's a very the Father. So, I think that's a very the Father. So, I think that's a very important biblical idea. That doesn't important biblical idea. That doesn't important biblical idea. That doesn't mean, as we already said, that the the mean, as we already said, that the the mean, as we already said, that the the shallow form of it is always going to be shallow form of it is always going to be shallow form of it is always going to be ours, and it doesn't mean that we are ours, and it doesn't mean that we are ours, and it doesn't mean that we are going to bounce from day to day always going to bounce from day to day always going to bounce from day to day always in a permanent state of good mood in a permanent state of good mood in a permanent state of good mood or even that our temperaments will or even that our temperaments will or even that our temperaments will change in that direction. Um change in that direction. Um change in that direction. Um let alone that our circumstances will, let alone that our circumstances will, let alone that our circumstances will, but I think it does mean that this is but I think it does mean that this is but I think it does mean that this is part of God's inheritance for those who part of God's inheritance for those who part of God's inheritance for those who he loves and it's a wonderful thing to he loves and it's a wonderful thing to he loves and it's a wonderful thing to to learn about and therefore to press to learn about and therefore to press to learn about and therefore to press into. into. into. >> Typical Andrew, for your books, you >> Typical Andrew, for your books, you >> Typical Andrew, for your books, you weave in these weave in these weave in these really insightful really insightful really insightful cultural takes with the the Bible, the cultural takes with the the Bible, the cultural takes with the the Bible, the theology, the the narrative. It's such a theology, the the narrative. It's such a theology, the the narrative. It's such a wonderful combination of all of the wonderful combination of all of the wonderful combination of all of the above. And there was a cultural above. And there was a cultural above. And there was a cultural observation that stood out to me as observation that stood out to me as observation that stood out to me as really powerful, really powerful, really powerful, even life-changing in some ways. You even life-changing in some ways. You even life-changing in some ways. You describe how millennials, generation describe how millennials, generation describe how millennials, generation born between 1980 and 1994, were happier born between 1980 and 1994, were happier born between 1980 and 1994, were happier than previous generations as teenagers, than previous generations as teenagers, than previous generations as teenagers, but less happy now as adults.

but less happy now as adults. but less happy now as adults. Would you go ahead and explain that Would you go ahead and explain that Would you go ahead and explain that observation? observation? observation? >> Well, I I there's an indirect sense in >> Well, I I there's an indirect sense in >> Well, I I there's an indirect sense in which I owe this point to you, Colin, which I owe this point to you, Colin, which I owe this point to you, Colin, which you probably don't know because I which you probably don't know because I which you probably don't know because I think you put me on to Jean Twenge in think you put me on to Jean Twenge in think you put me on to Jean Twenge in the first place. And you definitely told the first place. And you definitely told the first place. And you definitely told me how to pronounce her name, which I me how to pronounce her name, which I me how to pronounce her name, which I would not would not would not >> I would definitely [laughter] would have >> I would definitely [laughter] would have >> I would definitely [laughter] would have been Twenge. been Twenge. been Twenge. >> If I put through the Englishman in me, >> If I put through the Englishman in me, >> If I put through the Englishman in me, would have said would have said would have said Um, and Um, and Um, and so yeah, and I so I read her book so yeah, and I so I read her book so yeah, and I so I read her book Generations. Generations. Generations. And she makes this point in with lots of And she makes this point in with lots of And she makes this point in with lots of with with I mean, she makes the point with with I mean, she makes the point with with I mean, she makes the point with a with data and then tries to with a with data and then tries to with a with data and then tries to explain why she thinks it's true. And I explain why she thinks it's true. And I explain why she thinks it's true. And I think she would say and if and I would think she would say and if and I would think she would say and if and I would say too that this is a suggestion as to say too that this is a suggestion as to say too that this is a suggestion as to why it's true, but it's a pretty why it's true, but it's a pretty why it's true, but it's a pretty convincing one to me. convincing one to me. convincing one to me. So she shows first of all that, you So she shows first of all that, you So she shows first of all that, you know, millennials are happy as happier know, millennials are happy as happier know, millennials are happy as happier than say Gen X's, which is, you know, my than say Gen X's, which is, you know, my than say Gen X's, which is, you know, my generation or generation or generation or >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> uh, or boomers, whatever, as a teens, >> uh, or boomers, whatever, as a teens, >> uh, or boomers, whatever, as a teens, but as they've got older, they have but as they've got older, they have but as they've got older, they have dropped this like their line of dropped this like their line of dropped this like their line of happiness has dropped and other happiness has dropped and other happiness has dropped and other generations have gone as over time to generations have gone as over time to generations have gone as over time to overtakes them. overtakes them. overtakes them. And And And she says that I think the reason why she says that I think the reason why she says that I think the reason why that's true is because the sorts of that's true is because the sorts of that's true is because the sorts of things that make us happy as teenagers things that make us happy as teenagers things that make us happy as teenagers uh, are freedom from constraints, uh, are freedom from constraints, uh, are freedom from constraints, individual self-actualization, individual self-actualization, individual self-actualization, and and and actually sometimes the freedom from the actually sometimes the freedom from the actually sometimes the freedom from the obligations that communities place upon obligations that communities place upon obligations that communities place upon us for a period of time makes us us for a period of time makes us us for a period of time makes us happier. As a 16-year-old, you want to happier. As a 16-year-old, you want to happier. As a 16-year-old, you want to kick back against things and actually kick back against things and actually kick back against things and actually you feel more liberated and more excited you feel more liberated and more excited you feel more liberated and more excited and more happy in the way that these and more happy in the way that these and more happy in the way that these surveys often measure it. If you are cut

surveys often measure it. If you are cut surveys often measure it. If you are cut loose from some of those ties, the loose from some of those ties, the loose from some of those ties, the problem is that within 10 years the ties problem is that within 10 years the ties problem is that within 10 years the ties that you have liberated yourself from that you have liberated yourself from that you have liberated yourself from become very important to your happiness. become very important to your happiness. become very important to your happiness. And by the time you're 37 or 47 or 57, And by the time you're 37 or 47 or 57, And by the time you're 37 or 47 or 57, they're not only important to happiness, they're not only important to happiness, they're not only important to happiness, they are among the most important things they are among the most important things they are among the most important things in your happiness. Your sense of in your happiness. Your sense of in your happiness. Your sense of embeddedness in community, the longevity embeddedness in community, the longevity embeddedness in community, the longevity of your relationships, your of your relationships, your of your relationships, your connectedness and health of your family connectedness and health of your family connectedness and health of your family relationships. relationships. relationships. And so she suggests, and it sounds very And so she suggests, and it sounds very And so she suggests, and it sounds very convincing to me, that the part of the convincing to me, that the part of the convincing to me, that the part of the challenge that a millennial has is that challenge that a millennial has is that challenge that a millennial has is that the thing that they lived at a are alive the thing that they lived at a are alive the thing that they lived at a are alive at a particular period in which at a particular period in which at a particular period in which those sorts of long-term community those sorts of long-term community those sorts of long-term community embedded entangled relationship ties embedded entangled relationship ties embedded entangled relationship ties were on the on the way down, which meant were on the on the way down, which meant were on the on the way down, which meant that they did great as teens cuz that's that they did great as teens cuz that's that they did great as teens cuz that's what teenagers want, but by the time what teenagers want, but by the time what teenagers want, but by the time they reached their 30s were struggling they reached their 30s were struggling they reached their 30s were struggling at a mental health level because many of at a mental health level because many of at a mental health level because many of the things that they'd got rid of as a the things that they'd got rid of as a the things that they'd got rid of as a result [snorts] of wider cultural result [snorts] of wider cultural result [snorts] of wider cultural changes were changes were changes were wouldn't now making them miserable wouldn't now making them miserable wouldn't now making them miserable because they didn't have them anymore. because they didn't have them anymore. because they didn't have them anymore. And I I can't I don't know if there's a And I I can't I don't know if there's a And I I can't I don't know if there's a way to prove that. It maybe there's more way to prove that. It maybe there's more way to prove that. It maybe there's more research to be done, but it sounded like research to be done, but it sounded like research to be done, but it sounded like a very convincing explanation of that a very convincing explanation of that a very convincing explanation of that phenomenon to me.

phenomenon to me. phenomenon to me. >> It overlaps a little bit Andrew with >> It overlaps a little bit Andrew with >> It overlaps a little bit Andrew with observations in the 1960s, I know an observations in the 1960s, I know an observations in the 1960s, I know an period you're interested in as well. period you're interested in as well. period you're interested in as well. Thinking about the United States, the Thinking about the United States, the Thinking about the United States, the idea that the 1960s a lot of so-called idea that the 1960s a lot of so-called idea that the 1960s a lot of so-called liberation that people experienced as liberation that people experienced as liberation that people experienced as something really positive was only something really positive was only something really positive was only possible because the structures of the possible because the structures of the possible because the structures of the 1950s were still in place. 1950s were still in place. 1950s were still in place. But once they had corroded the But once they had corroded the But once they had corroded the structures of the 1950s and the 1970s structures of the 1950s and the 1970s structures of the 1950s and the 1970s took over, took over, took over, that freedom then became bankrupt. that freedom then became bankrupt. that freedom then became bankrupt. The sex, drugs, and rock and roll The sex, drugs, and rock and roll The sex, drugs, and rock and roll >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> you know, failed them. >> you know, failed them. >> you know, failed them. So, you could probably see a similar So, you could probably see a similar So, you could probably see a similar dynamic in the millennial uh push there dynamic in the millennial uh push there dynamic in the millennial uh push there where all of a sudden you you still have where all of a sudden you you still have where all of a sudden you you still have the intrinsic values, you still have the the intrinsic values, you still have the the intrinsic values, you still have the support of community, you still have the support of community, you still have the support of community, you still have the encouragement, but you have the the encouragement, but you have the the encouragement, but you have the the sense that wow, I can really pursue my sense that wow, I can really pursue my sense that wow, I can really pursue my own own own I I I can really pursue money, I can I I I can really pursue money, I can I I I can really pursue money, I can really pursue fame, I can I can be really pursue fame, I can I can be really pursue fame, I can I can be something I can make something of something I can make something of something I can make something of myself, those extrinsic values.

myself, those extrinsic values. myself, those extrinsic values. But then all of a sudden, when you stand But then all of a sudden, when you stand But then all of a sudden, when you stand those on their own, and you've got the those on their own, and you've got the those on their own, and you've got the career, you have the influencer status, career, you have the influencer status, career, you have the influencer status, you you have those opportunities, you've you you have those opportunities, you've you you have those opportunities, you've had the vacations, had the vacations, had the vacations, now you don't have a family, you don't now you don't have a family, you don't now you don't have a family, you don't have a faith, you don't have a have a faith, you don't have a have a faith, you don't have a community, community, community, yeah, it's going to come up bankrupt for yeah, it's going to come up bankrupt for yeah, it's going to come up bankrupt for you. you. you. >> Yeah, it it's the it's the classic >> Yeah, it it's the it's the classic >> Yeah, it it's the it's the classic sawing off the branch you're sitting on sawing off the branch you're sitting on sawing off the branch you're sitting on problem. problem. problem. And I think to in fairness to the the And I think to in fairness to the the And I think to in fairness to the the children of the '60s who were all our children of the '60s who were all our children of the '60s who were all our parents, I mean, my parents anyway, parents, I mean, my parents anyway, parents, I mean, my parents anyway, they I think there is a version of that they I think there is a version of that they I think there is a version of that that almost every generation does, that that almost every generation does, that that almost every generation does, that it takes for granted the norms that they it takes for granted the norms that they it takes for granted the norms that they have inherited, and looks to pursue the have inherited, and looks to pursue the have inherited, and looks to pursue the things that they don't know. And and things that they don't know. And and things that they don't know. And and when we're doing that, we're often when we're doing that, we're often when we're doing that, we're often literally it's it's kids often it's 16, literally it's it's kids often it's 16, literally it's it's kids often it's 16, 18, 21-year-olds, you know, it's the and 18, 21-year-olds, you know, it's the and 18, 21-year-olds, you know, it's the and you know, as you know, we wouldn't get you know, as you know, we wouldn't get you know, as you know, we wouldn't get without going on the deep war down the without going on the deep war down the without going on the deep war down the rabbit war of the '60s, you know, rabbit war of the '60s, you know, rabbit war of the '60s, you know, there's there's Vietnam, there's all there's there's Vietnam, there's all there's there's Vietnam, there's all sorts of reasons why people would go, we sorts of reasons why people would go, we sorts of reasons why people would go, we have to make the most of this time. So, have to make the most of this time. So, have to make the most of this time. So, I I do get that. I I do get that. I I do get that. But I but I agree with you. I think we But I but I agree with you. I think we But I but I agree with you. I think we live on borrowed capital. I've I've live on borrowed capital. I've I've live on borrowed capital. I've I've written about this, as you know, in the written about this, as you know, in the written about this, as you know, in the in the in the in the in America in the world when it comes to in America in the world when it comes to in America in the world when it comes to Christianity, the same thing is true, Christianity, the same thing is true, Christianity, the same thing is true, where we take for granted Christian where we take for granted Christian where we take for granted Christian norms and then push back against them norms and then push back against them norms and then push back against them and find that when they fade, what on and find that when they fade, what on and find that when they fade, what on earth is going to replace them? I think earth is going to replace them? I think earth is going to replace them? I think we do the same with the need for we do the same with the need for we do the same with the need for community. And I think in many ways that community. And I think in many ways that community. And I think in many ways that pursuit of happiness idea is common to pursuit of happiness idea is common to pursuit of happiness idea is common to all of those things. It's human beings all of those things. It's human beings all of those things. It's human beings trying to trying to trying to find happiness in the way that makes find happiness in the way that makes find happiness in the way that makes seems to make sense to them, but we seems to make sense to them, but we seems to make sense to them, but we don't generally realize that the things don't generally realize that the things don't generally realize that the things that in a long-term way make us happy

that in a long-term way make us happy that in a long-term way make us happy are often things that take decades to are often things that take decades to are often things that take decades to build that are not something that we build that are not something that we build that are not something that we generally discover or stumble across generally discover or stumble across generally discover or stumble across when we're 18 or 21 anyway and about when we're 18 or 21 anyway and about when we're 18 or 21 anyway and about which our ancestors actually have more which our ancestors actually have more which our ancestors actually have more to teach us than of course we realize to teach us than of course we realize to teach us than of course we realize until it's too late to learn from them. until it's too late to learn from them. until it's too late to learn from them. So, I I think that is quite a normal So, I I think that is quite a normal So, I I think that is quite a normal phenomenon. It just happens we are phenomenon. It just happens we are phenomenon. It just happens we are living in the midst of a new iteration living in the midst of a new iteration living in the midst of a new iteration of that as in the in the 21st century. of that as in the in the 21st century. of that as in the in the 21st century. >> I was being interviewed uh >> I was being interviewed uh >> I was being interviewed uh in the context of apologetics and the in the context of apologetics and the in the context of apologetics and the question came up if I were ever at a a question came up if I were ever at a a question came up if I were ever at a a football match, we're standing on the football match, we're standing on the football match, we're standing on the sideline and the parents are discussing sideline and the parents are discussing sideline and the parents are discussing and all of a sudden the topic of and all of a sudden the topic of and all of a sudden the topic of abortion comes up. abortion comes up. abortion comes up. How would I How would I defend the How would I How would I defend the How would I How would I defend the Christian view? How do uh in that in Christian view? How do uh in that in Christian view? How do uh in that in that setting? that setting? that setting? And I thought about it for a second and And I thought about it for a second and And I thought about it for a second and then just considered considered that then just considered considered that then just considered considered that setting. Looked out there and said setting. Looked out there and said setting. Looked out there and said we're telling ourselves a story, a we're telling ourselves a story, a we're telling ourselves a story, a narrative about happiness, and happiness narrative about happiness, and happiness narrative about happiness, and happiness comes with the lack of constraint. And comes with the lack of constraint. And comes with the lack of constraint. And that's at the heart of abortion. That that's at the heart of abortion. That that's at the heart of abortion. That you don't want anything to tie you down.

you don't want anything to tie you down. you don't want anything to tie you down. You don't want any responsibilities or You don't want any responsibilities or You don't want any responsibilities or obligations. You can't afford them. They obligations. You can't afford them. They obligations. You can't afford them. They would inhibit you from achieving would inhibit you from achieving would inhibit you from achieving something else. something else. something else. And yet here we are standing watching And yet here we are standing watching And yet here we are standing watching our children in this case at a football our children in this case at a football our children in this case at a football match at a soccer match match at a soccer match match at a soccer match realizing that no, our deepest happiness realizing that no, our deepest happiness realizing that no, our deepest happiness comes in the constraints of loving other comes in the constraints of loving other comes in the constraints of loving other people, of caring for other people. people, of caring for other people. people, of caring for other people. We still know that to be true. We still know that to be true. We still know that to be true. And yet we tell ourselves the opposite And yet we tell ourselves the opposite And yet we tell ourselves the opposite story. story. story. I guess that's the deceitfulness of sin. I guess that's the deceitfulness of sin. I guess that's the deceitfulness of sin. Not sure. Not sure. Not sure. >> I really like that. I I love the I love >> I really like that. I I love the I love >> I really like that. I I love the I love the time with the football match. And I the time with the football match. And I the time with the football match. And I of course that you the punchline was of course that you the punchline was of course that you the punchline was hidden to me until 3/4 of the way hidden to me until 3/4 of the way hidden to me until 3/4 of the way through cuz I didn't know whether you through cuz I didn't know whether you through cuz I didn't know whether you were talking about the football that were talking about the football that were talking about the football that he's throwing or the football that's he's throwing or the football that's he's throwing or the football that's kicked. So, um no, but I think that's a kicked. So, um no, but I think that's a kicked. So, um no, but I think that's a really good I think that's a a good really good I think that's a a good really good I think that's a a good response and I I I do and I think that's response and I I I do and I think that's response and I I I do and I think that's there's a little micro I'm not saying there's a little micro I'm not saying there's a little micro I'm not saying I've got no idea what Jing Twangy thinks I've got no idea what Jing Twangy thinks I've got no idea what Jing Twangy thinks about this in that issue. about this in that issue. about this in that issue. But that is a little microcosm of what But that is a little microcosm of what But that is a little microcosm of what she is saying, which is that the sorts she is saying, which is that the sorts she is saying, which is that the sorts of things that we seek to make ourselves of things that we seek to make ourselves of things that we seek to make ourselves happy happy happy often in when we're young often involve often in when we're young often involve often in when we're young often involve throwing off constraints that we then throwing off constraints that we then throwing off constraints that we then look back later and go I really need look back later and go I really need look back later and go I really need those things. And there are I I don't those things. And there are I I don't those things. And there are I I don't know. I I remember watching the um know. I I remember watching the um know. I I remember watching the um the O.J. documentary or that maybe the the O.J. documentary or that maybe the the O.J. documentary or that maybe the Netflix out of it. Maybe I watched both Netflix out of it. Maybe I watched both Netflix out of it. Maybe I watched both back-to-back I think a few years ago. I back-to-back I think a few years ago. I back-to-back I think a few years ago. I went down the another rabbit hole and went down the another rabbit hole and went down the another rabbit hole and what what's about that about O.J.

what what's about that about O.J. what what's about that about O.J. Simpson and just seeing in that man's Simpson and just seeing in that man's Simpson and just seeing in that man's horrible story an extraordinary example horrible story an extraordinary example horrible story an extraordinary example of this of somebody who just one by one of this of somebody who just one by one of this of somebody who just one by one the constraints obviously to a gruesome the constraints obviously to a gruesome the constraints obviously to a gruesome extent threw off this and that and the extent threw off this and that and the extent threw off this and that and the other and then there's this sort of other and then there's this sort of other and then there's this sort of weird party he has at the very end when weird party he has at the very end when weird party he has at the very end when he gets gets let off and comes back in he gets gets let off and comes back in he gets gets let off and comes back in and there's all these people surrounding and there's all these people surrounding and there's all these people surrounding him. You realize this is one of the most him. You realize this is one of the most him. You realize this is one of the most miserable resolution to a story I've miserable resolution to a story I've miserable resolution to a story I've ever seen and it's happening with a ever seen and it's happening with a ever seen and it's happening with a party with lots of glamorous beautiful party with lots of glamorous beautiful party with lots of glamorous beautiful in the guy's house drinking and in the guy's house drinking and in the guy's house drinking and listening to music. It is so weird and I listening to music. It is so weird and I listening to music. It is so weird and I think that in some ways that is think that in some ways that is think that in some ways that is obviously not to the same degree in most obviously not to the same degree in most obviously not to the same degree in most most of our cases God willing, but a a most of our cases God willing, but a a most of our cases God willing, but a a little snapshot of what Twangy is saying little snapshot of what Twangy is saying little snapshot of what Twangy is saying and what many of us can do. Just not to and what many of us can do. Just not to and what many of us can do. Just not to realize again we prioritize the thin realize again we prioritize the thin realize again we prioritize the thin version of happiness cuz it's easier and version of happiness cuz it's easier and version of happiness cuz it's easier and it's right there and it gives us an it's right there and it gives us an it's right there and it gives us an instant dopamine hit. instant dopamine hit. instant dopamine hit. And I mean the classic thing is you And I mean the classic thing is you And I mean the classic thing is you instead of interacting with your instead of interacting with your instead of interacting with your children which brings the long-term children which brings the long-term children which brings the long-term happy the deep happiness, you interact happy the deep happiness, you interact happy the deep happiness, you interact with your phone which gives you a with your phone which gives you a with your phone which gives you a short-term big click which is more short-term big click which is more short-term big click which is more distracting and in a little way makes distracting and in a little way makes distracting and in a little way makes you more immediately happy than building you more immediately happy than building you more immediately happy than building the relationship or certainly resolving the relationship or certainly resolving the relationship or certainly resolving a conflict or a discipline issue with a a conflict or a discipline issue with a a conflict or a discipline issue with a child, but no-one in their right mind child, but no-one in their right mind child, but no-one in their right mind could possibly think that over your could possibly think that over your could possibly think that over your lifetime the phone is going to bring you lifetime the phone is going to bring you lifetime the phone is going to bring you more happiness than the child. It's just more happiness than the child. It's just more happiness than the child. It's just that that that it tricks us in the moment to pursue the it tricks us in the moment to pursue the it tricks us in the moment to pursue the shallow, but if you pursue the shallow shallow, but if you pursue the shallow shallow, but if you pursue the shallow too much you over time you the deep gets too much you over time you the deep gets too much you over time you the deep gets hollowed out all together and the hollowed out all together and the hollowed out all together and the shallow is all you have left and so I shallow is all you have left and so I shallow is all you have left and so I don't know. OJ and the kids of the 1960s don't know. OJ and the kids of the 1960s don't know. OJ and the kids of the 1960s and modern millennials and me and modern millennials and me and modern millennials and me I've all got the same you know we we I've all got the same you know we we I've all got the same you know we we don't actually go for what brings us

don't actually go for what brings us don't actually go for what brings us joy, we go for what is easier at the joy, we go for what is easier at the joy, we go for what is easier at the time and that is that's a a trend we time and that is that's a a trend we time and that is that's a a trend we have to push hard against which is one have to push hard against which is one have to push hard against which is one of the reasons I I've written a book. of the reasons I I've written a book. of the reasons I I've written a book. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. As you also describe in the book it As you also describe in the book it As you also describe in the book it trivially trivially happy yet trivially trivially happy yet trivially trivially happy yet substantially sad I think is an apt substantially sad I think is an apt substantially sad I think is an apt description of a lot of what we see description of a lot of what we see description of a lot of what we see today. Um let's flip in a different today. Um let's flip in a different today. Um let's flip in a different direction though and explain to us direction though and explain to us direction though and explain to us Andrew the problem of superfluous Andrew the problem of superfluous Andrew the problem of superfluous happiness. I love this. happiness. I love this. happiness. I love this. >> Yeah, I think we are very aware >> Yeah, I think we are very aware >> Yeah, I think we are very aware as you know Christian pastor and a as you know Christian pastor and a as you know Christian pastor and a writer and so on I'm very aware of the writer and so on I'm very aware of the writer and so on I'm very aware of the problem of evil every time you get into problem of evil every time you get into problem of evil every time you get into a conversation with someone about their a conversation with someone about their a conversation with someone about their objections to Christianity pretty much objections to Christianity pretty much objections to Christianity pretty much this one comes up. But what we don't do this one comes up. But what we don't do this one comes up. But what we don't do very often is think about the opposite very often is think about the opposite very often is think about the opposite which is yeah the which is yeah the which is yeah the the problem of superfluous happiness or the problem of superfluous happiness or the problem of superfluous happiness or the problem that the there is a lot more the problem that the there is a lot more the problem that the there is a lot more joy in the world than there should be. joy in the world than there should be. joy in the world than there should be. You stand back from the world and you You stand back from the world and you You stand back from the world and you say there is no particular reason why say there is no particular reason why say there is no particular reason why things that make us happy ought to be things that make us happy ought to be things that make us happy ought to be there. We there. We there. We some of the things that make us happy some of the things that make us happy some of the things that make us happy you could argue a sort of evolutionary you could argue a sort of evolutionary you could argue a sort of evolutionary origin for and I would respect that. You origin for and I would respect that. You origin for and I would respect that. You say well the fact that we the fact that say well the fact that we the fact that say well the fact that we the fact that eating makes us happy well you have to eating makes us happy well you have to eating makes us happy well you have to eat to survive. The fact that drinking eat to survive. The fact that drinking eat to survive. The fact that drinking does, the fact that having sex does, the does, the fact that having sex does, the does, the fact that having sex does, the fact that things which you need to fact that things which you need to fact that things which you need to perpetuate the human race perpetuate the human race perpetuate the human race you can just make the connections there.

you can just make the connections there. you can just make the connections there. But there's a load of things that make But there's a load of things that make But there's a load of things that make us deeply happy beauty that have got us deeply happy beauty that have got us deeply happy beauty that have got almost nothing it would not seem in any almost nothing it would not seem in any almost nothing it would not seem in any way obvious why we found them beautiful. way obvious why we found them beautiful. way obvious why we found them beautiful. So why do we find a field of So why do we find a field of So why do we find a field of poppies or lavender in southern France poppies or lavender in southern France poppies or lavender in southern France more beautiful than a field of potatoes more beautiful than a field of potatoes more beautiful than a field of potatoes when the potatoes are far more when the potatoes are far more when the potatoes are far more beneficial to us. beneficial to us. beneficial to us. Why do we find you know wild mountains Why do we find you know wild mountains Why do we find you know wild mountains and sort of the and sort of the and sort of the you know lofty mountain grandeur and you know lofty mountain grandeur and you know lofty mountain grandeur and then in the words of the hymn that sort then in the words of the hymn that sort then in the words of the hymn that sort of thing more more beautiful than just of thing more more beautiful than just of thing more more beautiful than just than sorry to those who come from this than sorry to those who come from this than sorry to those who come from this fine state but Iowa which in principle fine state but Iowa which in principle fine state but Iowa which in principle or Saskatchewan, you know, just fields or Saskatchewan, you know, just fields or Saskatchewan, you know, just fields and fields of the growing wheat or corn, and fields of the growing wheat or corn, and fields of the growing wheat or corn, that's really what we should prize for that's really what we should prize for that's really what we should prize for our own survival, but we don't. We find our own survival, but we don't. We find our own survival, but we don't. We find joy in all kinds of things that seem joy in all kinds of things that seem joy in all kinds of things that seem almost entirely useless to us. almost entirely useless to us. almost entirely useless to us. And that should is one of many little And that should is one of many little And that should is one of many little touch points in the world to say there touch points in the world to say there touch points in the world to say there is a joy you find in this world that is a joy you find in this world that is a joy you find in this world that isn't reducible to your need for it. isn't reducible to your need for it. isn't reducible to your need for it. There's more happiness than there needs There's more happiness than there needs There's more happiness than there needs to be. to be. to be. And that, of course, in the Christian And that, of course, in the Christian And that, of course, in the Christian understanding is the overflow of the understanding is the overflow of the understanding is the overflow of the bountious bountious bountious creator who has not only created creator who has not only created creator who has not only created beautiful things when he didn't need to, beautiful things when he didn't need to, beautiful things when he didn't need to, he's created at all when he didn't need he's created at all when he didn't need he's created at all when he didn't need to. And the very act of creation is a to. And the very act of creation is a to. And the very act of creation is a gift and is something that God has done gift and is something that God has done gift and is something that God has done because he's a god of love and because he's a god of love and because he's a god of love and abundance, not a god who has needs in abundance, not a god who has needs in abundance, not a god who has needs in the in the sense that you you and I the in the sense that you you and I the in the sense that you you and I might. So, I think in that sense it's might. So, I think in that sense it's might. So, I think in that sense it's just a There's a There's an inversion of just a There's a There's an inversion of just a There's a There's an inversion of the problem of evil that we don't very the problem of evil that we don't very the problem of evil that we don't very often think about, but I think has its often think about, but I think has its often think about, but I think has its own power, just to say own power, just to say own power, just to say this should prompt you to wonder whether this should prompt you to wonder whether this should prompt you to wonder whether or not this world is simply a or not this world is simply a or not this world is simply a a a an example a series of

a a an example a series of a a an example a series of atomic collisions, or whether there is atomic collisions, or whether there is atomic collisions, or whether there is actually a a person behind it who is actually a a person behind it who is actually a a person behind it who is bringing joy into being because that's bringing joy into being because that's bringing joy into being because that's who he is. who he is. who he is. >> You also say that the pursuit of >> You also say that the pursuit of >> You also say that the pursuit of happiness helps helps us fight sin. happiness helps helps us fight sin. happiness helps helps us fight sin. What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? What do you mean by that? >> I don't think you can fight sin without >> I don't think you can fight sin without >> I don't think you can fight sin without pursuing your own happiness. And and I pursuing your own happiness. And and I pursuing your own happiness. And and I think we touched on the the negative of think we touched on the the negative of think we touched on the the negative of this already, which is that one of the this already, which is that one of the this already, which is that one of the ways in which we succumb to sin is ways in which we succumb to sin is ways in which we succumb to sin is because we don't seek our happiness because we don't seek our happiness because we don't seek our happiness enough. I'm alluded to Jeremiah 2, and I enough. I'm alluded to Jeremiah 2, and I enough. I'm alluded to Jeremiah 2, and I I think Jeremiah 2 is that classic text I think Jeremiah 2 is that classic text I think Jeremiah 2 is that classic text that I have two My my people have done that I have two My my people have done that I have two My my people have done two evils against me. They have forsaken two evils against me. They have forsaken two evils against me. They have forsaken me, the fountain of living water, and me, the fountain of living water, and me, the fountain of living water, and they've hewn out for themselves broken they've hewn out for themselves broken they've hewn out for themselves broken cisterns which can't hold water. cisterns which can't hold water. cisterns which can't hold water. So, they have turned their back on God So, they have turned their back on God So, they have turned their back on God who is the fountain of all joy, but who is the fountain of all joy, but who is the fountain of all joy, but they've also tried to make their own far they've also tried to make their own far they've also tried to make their own far less satisfactory broken sources of joy, less satisfactory broken sources of joy, less satisfactory broken sources of joy, like a broken cistern, you know, sludge like a broken cistern, you know, sludge like a broken cistern, you know, sludge pouring into the water well in the in pouring into the water well in the in pouring into the water well in the in the ground. You just think it's Who the ground. You just think it's Who the ground. You just think it's Who would drink that when a fountain is would drink that when a fountain is would drink that when a fountain is available? But that's what human beings available? But that's what human beings available? But that's what human beings do. And so, therefore, the fight against do. And so, therefore, the fight against do. And so, therefore, the fight against sin is in large part seeing our greatest sin is in large part seeing our greatest sin is in large part seeing our greatest joy in turning our back on the broken joy in turning our back on the broken joy in turning our back on the broken system and finding it again in the system and finding it again in the system and finding it again in the fountain.

fountain. fountain. And I I I still think that the best And I I I still think that the best And I I I still think that the best thing that's ever been written or spoken thing that's ever been written or spoken thing that's ever been written or spoken on this outside of the Bible is is the on this outside of the Bible is is the on this outside of the Bible is is the sermon by Thomas Chalmers called The sermon by Thomas Chalmers called The sermon by Thomas Chalmers called The Expulsive Power of a New Affection, Expulsive Power of a New Affection, Expulsive Power of a New Affection, which I know will be well known to you which I know will be well known to you which I know will be well known to you and and probably to some others uh and and probably to some others uh and and probably to some others uh listening. But, that's what he says. He listening. But, that's what he says. He listening. But, that's what he says. He says, you cannot There's only two ways says, you cannot There's only two ways says, you cannot There's only two ways of trying to get people to pursue of trying to get people to pursue of trying to get people to pursue righteousness. One is you say, you have righteousness. One is you say, you have righteousness. One is you say, you have to overcome by sheer force of will the to overcome by sheer force of will the to overcome by sheer force of will the desire to do this thing by kind of desire to do this thing by kind of desire to do this thing by kind of suppressing your desire for happiness. suppressing your desire for happiness. suppressing your desire for happiness. And the other is you say, you need to And the other is you say, you need to And the other is you say, you need to find you need you just need to realize find you need you just need to realize find you need you just need to realize that this thing is ultimately not going that this thing is ultimately not going that this thing is ultimately not going to lead you to happiness and you what to lead you to happiness and you what to lead you to happiness and you what you what what will is to pursue the you what what will is to pursue the you what what will is to pursue the things of God instead. But, the first things of God instead. But, the first things of God instead. But, the first one method he says is useless. It one method he says is useless. It one method he says is useless. It doesn't actually work. The only way you doesn't actually work. The only way you doesn't actually work. The only way you can do it is by what he calls the can do it is by what he calls the can do it is by what he calls the expulsive power of a new affection. So, expulsive power of a new affection. So, expulsive power of a new affection. So, you have to If you are into you have to If you are into you have to If you are into whatever, just into eating too much, one whatever, just into eating too much, one whatever, just into eating too much, one of the ways you might get yourself to of the ways you might get yourself to of the ways you might get yourself to pull out of that is to say, "Okay, but I pull out of that is to say, "Okay, but I pull out of that is to say, "Okay, but I will be happier if I'm fitter and I'm will be happier if I'm fitter and I'm will be happier if I'm fitter and I'm able to able to able to you know, be more athletic." And the way you know, be more athletic." And the way you know, be more athletic." And the way you might then get obsessed with you might then get obsessed with you might then get obsessed with athleticism, but you might say, "Well, athleticism, but you might say, "Well, athleticism, but you might say, "Well, actually, if I give all of my time to actually, if I give all of my time to actually, if I give all of my time to athleticism, I won't be able to get in a athleticism, I won't be able to get in a athleticism, I won't be able to get in a a romantic relationship, which might a romantic relationship, which might a romantic relationship, which might make me happier than that." And then you make me happier than that." And then you make me happier than that." And then you what you get monopolized by that, and what you get monopolized by that, and what you get monopolized by that, and then you exchange that for maybe a then you exchange that for maybe a then you exchange that for maybe a career or for politics or whatever it is career or for politics or whatever it is career or for politics or whatever it is that might take you. And this is what that might take you. And this is what that might take you. And this is what Chalmers says. But, in each one of those Chalmers says. But, in each one of those Chalmers says. But, in each one of those cases, the heart never goes, "I mean, I cases, the heart never goes, "I mean, I cases, the heart never goes, "I mean, I don't I'm not looking for my happiness."

don't I'm not looking for my happiness." don't I'm not looking for my happiness." What happens is the heart exchanges What happens is the heart exchanges What happens is the heart exchanges something that doesn't make it happy for something that doesn't make it happy for something that doesn't make it happy for something that will make it more happy. something that will make it more happy. something that will make it more happy. And of course, the ultimate example of And of course, the ultimate example of And of course, the ultimate example of that for Chalmers, for Jeremiah, and for that for Chalmers, for Jeremiah, and for that for Chalmers, for Jeremiah, and for us is to exchange it for the joy that is us is to exchange it for the joy that is us is to exchange it for the joy that is found in God. found in God. found in God. And we could There's many examples even And we could There's many examples even And we could There's many examples even in the conversation we've had already of in the conversation we've had already of in the conversation we've had already of that being the way that we seek that being the way that we seek that being the way that we seek good things and seek joy for our own good things and seek joy for our own good things and seek joy for our own lives. And I So, that invitation, you lives. And I So, that invitation, you lives. And I So, that invitation, you know, come again, come and share your know, come again, come and share your know, come again, come and share your master's happiness. Pleasures master's happiness. Pleasures master's happiness. Pleasures forevermore. Rejoice in the Lord always. forevermore. Rejoice in the Lord always. forevermore. Rejoice in the Lord always. Again, I say, rejoice is a Again, I say, rejoice is a Again, I say, rejoice is a The reason it's such a strong theme is The reason it's such a strong theme is The reason it's such a strong theme is cuz God knows we are constituted that cuz God knows we are constituted that cuz God knows we are constituted that way and appeals to us to exchange lesser way and appeals to us to exchange lesser way and appeals to us to exchange lesser joys for deeper ones in him. joys for deeper ones in him. joys for deeper ones in him. >> One of my favorite all-time podcast >> One of my favorite all-time podcast >> One of my favorite all-time podcast interview moments was when I got to interview moments was when I got to interview moments was when I got to introduce the author of the happiness introduce the author of the happiness introduce the author of the happiness hypothesis, hypothesis, hypothesis, of course Jonathan Haidt, to Thomas of course Jonathan Haidt, to Thomas of course Jonathan Haidt, to Thomas Chalmers. Chalmers. Chalmers. He'd not heard of the concept at all, of He'd not heard of the concept at all, of He'd not heard of the concept at all, of course. He's not not a course. He's not not a course. He's not not a not a Christian, but I said, "I think not a Christian, but I said, "I think not a Christian, but I said, "I think what you're talking about is this." And what you're talking about is this." And what you're talking about is this." And he said, "Really? I Wow, I really he said, "Really? I Wow, I really he said, "Really? I Wow, I really thought about it that way before." That thought about it that way before." That thought about it that way before." That was really really interesting. Um was really really interesting. Um was really really interesting. Um related to this then, how why do related to this then, how why do related to this then, how why do virtuous people lead happier lives? This virtuous people lead happier lives? This virtuous people lead happier lives? This is another one that I think when we just is another one that I think when we just is another one that I think when we just sit down and reckon with it, it seems sit down and reckon with it, it seems sit down and reckon with it, it seems kind of obvious.

kind of obvious. kind of obvious. Yet it is the opposite of the dominant Yet it is the opposite of the dominant Yet it is the opposite of the dominant cultural narrative that people who are cultural narrative that people who are cultural narrative that people who are free, who are transgressive, are the free, who are transgressive, are the free, who are transgressive, are the ones who are truly leading happier ones who are truly leading happier ones who are truly leading happier lives. So, why do virtuous people, lives. So, why do virtuous people, lives. So, why do virtuous people, Andrew, lead happier lives? Andrew, lead happier lives? Andrew, lead happier lives? >> Yeah, I'm >> Yeah, I'm >> Yeah, I'm in in in in short, because the God who creates in short, because the God who creates in short, because the God who creates the good, the true, and the beautiful is the good, the true, and the beautiful is the good, the true, and the beautiful is the same. So, I think good things, true the same. So, I think good things, true the same. So, I think good things, true things, and beautiful things things, and beautiful things things, and beautiful things at their at their ultimate point are all at their at their ultimate point are all at their at their ultimate point are all effectively one in the same. They effectively one in the same. They effectively one in the same. They resolve in in the character of God. So, resolve in in the character of God. So, resolve in in the character of God. So, we can make distinctions between truth, we can make distinctions between truth, we can make distinctions between truth, beauty, and goodness, but ultimately beauty, and goodness, but ultimately beauty, and goodness, but ultimately they do cohere in God. And and I think they do cohere in God. And and I think they do cohere in God. And and I think the more sort of cashed out practical the more sort of cashed out practical the more sort of cashed out practical answer is that the habits that make answer is that the habits that make answer is that the habits that make people most happy, because God is good people most happy, because God is good people most happy, because God is good and has configured us to has configured and has configured us to has configured and has configured us to has configured a world in a in a good way, the habits a world in a in a good way, the habits a world in a in a good way, the habits that actually lead to greatest joy are that actually lead to greatest joy are that actually lead to greatest joy are themselves the habits that not all themselves the habits that not all themselves the habits that not all traditions, but certainly Christian traditions, but certainly Christian traditions, but certainly Christian ethical teaching summons us towards. So, ethical teaching summons us towards. So, ethical teaching summons us towards. So, a habit like gratitude, a habit like gratitude, a habit like gratitude, which is extreme, you know, you know, which is extreme, you know, you know, which is extreme, you know, you know, all through all the way through the all through all the way through the all through all the way through the Bible, there's Thanksgiving everywhere Bible, there's Thanksgiving everywhere Bible, there's Thanksgiving everywhere in the Bible. Uh and and of course, you in the Bible. Uh and and of course, you in the Bible. Uh and and of course, you know, in the the ethical teaching in the know, in the the ethical teaching in the know, in the the ethical teaching in the New Testament, Gratitude is one of the New Testament, Gratitude is one of the New Testament, Gratitude is one of the most happiness inducing things you can most happiness inducing things you can most happiness inducing things you can have. For me to say thank you to you or have. For me to say thank you to you or have. For me to say thank you to you or for you, you know, when that opening for you, you know, when that opening for you, you know, when that opening introduction you said Andrew's one of introduction you said Andrew's one of introduction you said Andrew's one of the happiest people I know, da da da.

the happiest people I know, da da da. the happiest people I know, da da da. The weird thing about it, obviously The weird thing about it, obviously The weird thing about it, obviously makes me feel nice and warm inside, but makes me feel nice and warm inside, but makes me feel nice and warm inside, but it actually makes you feel nice. Because it actually makes you feel nice. Because it actually makes you feel nice. Because to commend and to honor and to praise, to commend and to honor and to praise, to commend and to honor and to praise, and this is again, you're I know you're and this is again, you're I know you're and this is again, you're I know you're a Lewis, I see it's Lewis man, but a Lewis, I see it's Lewis man, but a Lewis, I see it's Lewis man, but Lewis has always said this that actually Lewis has always said this that actually Lewis has always said this that actually the act of praise does something for me. the act of praise does something for me. the act of praise does something for me. It make I I can't fully experience the It make I I can't fully experience the It make I I can't fully experience the joy I want to in something until I joy I want to in something until I joy I want to in something until I praise it, until I give thanks to it or praise it, until I give thanks to it or praise it, until I give thanks to it or for it or whatever. And there's so many for it or whatever. And there's so many for it or whatever. And there's so many examples like this that humility examples like this that humility examples like this that humility is one of the most happiness inducing is one of the most happiness inducing is one of the most happiness inducing habits you can form. habits you can form. habits you can form. Um because as you regard yourself as Um because as you regard yourself as Um because as you regard yourself as lower, what you think you deserve goes lower, what you think you deserve goes lower, what you think you deserve goes down. down. down. And obviously when we think we deserve And obviously when we think we deserve And obviously when we think we deserve less than what we have, the gap between less than what we have, the gap between less than what we have, the gap between what we think we deserve and what we what we think we deserve and what we what we think we deserve and what we think we have is think we have is think we have is joy or gratitude or happiness, joy or gratitude or happiness, joy or gratitude or happiness, Thanksgiving. Whereas if we are proud Thanksgiving. Whereas if we are proud Thanksgiving. Whereas if we are proud and we think we deserve a lot and then and we think we deserve a lot and then and we think we deserve a lot and then we go and start going, "Oh, no, I we go and start going, "Oh, no, I we go and start going, "Oh, no, I haven't got as much as I think I just haven't got as much as I think I just haven't got as much as I think I just I'm entitled to." That gap is grumbling I'm entitled to." That gap is grumbling I'm entitled to." That gap is grumbling or misery or or misery or or misery or whatever, self-pity or whatever. And so whatever, self-pity or whatever. And so whatever, self-pity or whatever. And so generally the again, in so many ways the generally the again, in so many ways the generally the again, in so many ways the the ethical invitations or summons of the ethical invitations or summons of the ethical invitations or summons of the New Testament, they talk loads in the New Testament, they talk loads in the New Testament, they talk loads in the book about these, you know, the book about these, you know, the book about these, you know, compassion and kindness and then compassion and kindness and then compassion and kindness and then ultimately of course love, that actually ultimately of course love, that actually ultimately of course love, that actually in the end love is what really causes in the end love is what really causes in the end love is what really causes people to be happy and it's at the heart people to be happy and it's at the heart people to be happy and it's at the heart of of of the ethical teaching of the Bible. In the ethical teaching of the Bible. In the ethical teaching of the Bible. In fact, if it weren't for the Bible, love fact, if it weren't for the Bible, love fact, if it weren't for the Bible, love would seem like a slightly peripheral would seem like a slightly peripheral would seem like a slightly peripheral might not even be regarded as a virtue might not even be regarded as a virtue might not even be regarded as a virtue at all. I don't know. The ancient at all. I don't know. The ancient at all. I don't know. The ancient writers didn't tend to center love in writers didn't tend to center love in writers didn't tend to center love in the way that we do or the the way that the way that we do or the the way that the way that we do or the the way that certainly the way the scripture does.

certainly the way the scripture does. certainly the way the scripture does. So I think in all of those cases God has So I think in all of those cases God has So I think in all of those cases God has designed human beings and the world in designed human beings and the world in designed human beings and the world in such a way that there is a degree of such a way that there is a degree of such a way that there is a degree of virtue as its own reward. I don't want virtue as its own reward. I don't want virtue as its own reward. I don't want to push that too far into a sort of, to push that too far into a sort of, to push that too far into a sort of, you know, mechanistic fatalistic way, you know, mechanistic fatalistic way, you know, mechanistic fatalistic way, but that virtue the virtues do make but that virtue the virtues do make but that virtue the virtues do make people happy and I think that's because people happy and I think that's because people happy and I think that's because God created us in his image and as God God created us in his image and as God God created us in his image and as God is like that and he's made us to some is like that and he's made us to some is like that and he's made us to some measure like that as well. measure like that as well. measure like that as well. Uh so which is very exciting cuz it Uh so which is very exciting cuz it Uh so which is very exciting cuz it means that to tell someone I'm as again means that to tell someone I'm as again means that to tell someone I'm as again as a pastor or preacher commending the as a pastor or preacher commending the as a pastor or preacher commending the Christian life, commending Christian Christian life, commending Christian Christian life, commending Christian virtue to people is actually virtue to people is actually virtue to people is actually pointing them in the direction of their pointing them in the direction of their pointing them in the direction of their own greater happiness. own greater happiness. own greater happiness. >> Is this related Andrew to why compassion >> Is this related Andrew to why compassion >> Is this related Andrew to why compassion makes us happier than empathy does? makes us happier than empathy does? makes us happier than empathy does? >> Well, I think it is because I I think I >> Well, I think it is because I I think I >> Well, I think it is because I I think I know that there's a slight degree of know that there's a slight degree of know that there's a slight degree of sort of sort of sort of again, there's lots of rabbit holes here again, there's lots of rabbit holes here again, there's lots of rabbit holes here because of the way in which that because of the way in which that because of the way in which that discussion's gone in the last few years, discussion's gone in the last few years, discussion's gone in the last few years, but I think the I certainly the idea but I think the I certainly the idea but I think the I certainly the idea that you can retain your distance from that you can retain your distance from that you can retain your distance from an individual emotionally. You can see an individual emotionally. You can see an individual emotionally. You can see what is happening to a person and then what is happening to a person and then what is happening to a person and then choose to suffer with them, which is choose to suffer with them, which is choose to suffer with them, which is compassion, is a is better for us, is compassion, is a is better for us, is compassion, is a is better for us, is better for our mental health, is better better for our mental health, is better better for our mental health, is better for our sense of and I'm this is again, for our sense of and I'm this is again, for our sense of and I'm this is again, I'm talking sociologically here, not I'm talking sociologically here, not I'm talking sociologically here, not just theologically, just theologically, just theologically, uh than it is to empathize, that is to uh than it is to empathize, that is to uh than it is to empathize, that is to so enter into their pain and so on that so enter into their pain and so on that so enter into their pain and so on that you sort of experience it without you sort of experience it without you sort of experience it without necessarily being able to help them with necessarily being able to help them with necessarily being able to help them with the external agency you need.

the external agency you need. the external agency you need. And so empathy on its own without what And so empathy on its own without what And so empathy on its own without what then the Christian obviously vision is then the Christian obviously vision is then the Christian obviously vision is that of compassion, which is I can see that of compassion, which is I can see that of compassion, which is I can see this person, I'm going to enter into this person, I'm going to enter into this person, I'm going to enter into their suffering, but retain the distance their suffering, but retain the distance their suffering, but retain the distance that is needed both from the pain and that is needed both from the pain and that is needed both from the pain and from the circumstances to be able to from the circumstances to be able to from the circumstances to be able to help carry them through it. help carry them through it. help carry them through it. That actually the agency I have in that That actually the agency I have in that That actually the agency I have in that moment of being able to assist this moment of being able to assist this moment of being able to assist this person is what really brings the joy person is what really brings the joy person is what really brings the joy rather than disappearing into the sorrow rather than disappearing into the sorrow rather than disappearing into the sorrow with them, but not being able to help with them, but not being able to help with them, but not being able to help and carry them through it. That actually and carry them through it. That actually and carry them through it. That actually doesn't it that ends up wearing people doesn't it that ends up wearing people doesn't it that ends up wearing people out very quickly for obvious reasons cuz out very quickly for obvious reasons cuz out very quickly for obvious reasons cuz we we've got pains of our own and you we we've got pains of our own and you we we've got pains of our own and you start entering into too many other start entering into too many other start entering into too many other people's and you quickly get sunk by it. people's and you quickly get sunk by it. people's and you quickly get sunk by it. So, yes, I think it is connected. So, yes, I think it is connected. So, yes, I think it is connected. >> One more question Andrew on happiness. >> One more question Andrew on happiness. >> One more question Andrew on happiness. And again, we've been talking here with And again, we've been talking here with And again, we've been talking here with Andrew Wilson about happiness, what it Andrew Wilson about happiness, what it Andrew Wilson about happiness, what it is, where to find it, how to make it is, where to find it, how to make it is, where to find it, how to make it last forever. His new book with last forever. His new book with last forever. His new book with Crossway. Crossway. Crossway. When you're feeling gloomy Andrew, where When you're feeling gloomy Andrew, where When you're feeling gloomy Andrew, where do you find happiness? And related to do you find happiness? And related to do you find happiness? And related to this, you have a great concept in the this, you have a great concept in the this, you have a great concept in the book. How do you turn your delights into book. How do you turn your delights into book. How do you turn your delights into disciplines? disciplines? disciplines? >> Yeah, >> Yeah, >> Yeah, so this is a you know a great piece of so this is a you know a great piece of so this is a you know a great piece of advice I heard 20 25 years ago advice I heard 20 25 years ago advice I heard 20 25 years ago from a guy who said find out what helps from a guy who said find out what helps from a guy who said find out what helps you get happy in God and then make a you get happy in God and then make a you get happy in God and then make a discipline out of it. And I I have discipline out of it. And I I have discipline out of it. And I I have found that so found that so found that so uh beneficial as an idea. I uh beneficial as an idea. I uh beneficial as an idea. I So I think in So Mike is let's say in my So I think in So Mike is let's say in my So I think in So Mike is let's say in my just take devotional life would be one just take devotional life would be one just take devotional life would be one an example is probably for me one of the an example is probably for me one of the an example is probably for me one of the most important examples.

most important examples. most important examples. Um Um Um but I know that there are certain habits but I know that there are certain habits but I know that there are certain habits that if I you know for me early in the that if I you know for me early in the that if I you know for me early in the day day day just after I showered, you know, this is just after I showered, you know, this is just after I showered, you know, this is George Müller my first you see every George Müller my first you see every George Müller my first you see every morning is to have my soul happy in the morning is to have my soul happy in the morning is to have my soul happy in the Lord. I found that to be true. Lord. I found that to be true. Lord. I found that to be true. Um and so I go okay, I need to rejoice Um and so I go okay, I need to rejoice Um and so I go okay, I need to rejoice in the Lord and I'm I'm going to do that in the Lord and I'm I'm going to do that in the Lord and I'm I'm going to do that better if I better if I better if I practice in this way. If I had a book, a practice in this way. If I had a book, a practice in this way. If I had a book, a pen, a bi- probably a Bible, a pen, a bi- probably a Bible, a pen, a bi- probably a Bible, a commentary on the Bible or book that is commentary on the Bible or book that is commentary on the Bible or book that is bringing out the meaning of the Bible bringing out the meaning of the Bible bringing out the meaning of the Bible has always helped me for as long as I has always helped me for as long as I has always helped me for as long as I can remember a pen and a cup of coffee can remember a pen and a cup of coffee can remember a pen and a cup of coffee and a chair that's comfortable enough to and a chair that's comfortable enough to and a chair that's comfortable enough to sit in. And then when I'm when as when I sit in. And then when I'm when as when I sit in. And then when I'm when as when I pray I'm often might do that when I'm pray I'm often might do that when I'm pray I'm often might do that when I'm moving um because I find that you know moving um because I find that you know moving um because I find that you know useful. I sing quite a lot again useful. I sing quite a lot again useful. I sing quite a lot again charismatic you know, but we sing a lot charismatic you know, but we sing a lot charismatic you know, but we sing a lot in our kind of spirituality piety. And in our kind of spirituality piety. And in our kind of spirituality piety. And so I think those sorts of disciplines so I think those sorts of disciplines so I think those sorts of disciplines are again even just in attending church. are again even just in attending church. are again even just in attending church. Like what where how do what do I do in Like what where how do what do I do in Like what where how do what do I do in church? I I tend to find if I'm sitting church? I I tend to find if I'm sitting church? I I tend to find if I'm sitting at the front where I feel like I can at the front where I feel like I can at the front where I feel like I can just be more exuberant and I can just be more exuberant and I can just be more exuberant and I can participate more. I don't like seeing participate more. I don't like seeing participate more. I don't like seeing disengaged people worshipers ahead of disengaged people worshipers ahead of disengaged people worshipers ahead of me. So I find that just I don't know it me. So I find that just I don't know it me. So I find that just I don't know it kind of [clears throat] bums me out kind of [clears throat] bums me out kind of [clears throat] bums me out really sometimes. So I got to light sing really sometimes. So I got to light sing really sometimes. So I got to light sing in the front. Also some of some of these in the front. Also some of some of these in the front. Also some of some of these sound very silly but actually these sound very silly but actually these sound very silly but actually these norms about I just enjoy God more when norms about I just enjoy God more when norms about I just enjoy God more when I've got a pen and a Bible. I'm one of I've got a pen and a Bible. I'm one of I've got a pen and a Bible. I'm one of these people who writes in everything.

these people who writes in everything. these people who writes in everything. Um Um Um than you I do if I just read a Bible. than you I do if I just read a Bible. than you I do if I just read a Bible. That sounds weird but I just found that That sounds weird but I just found that That sounds weird but I just found that that kind of thing that brings me closer that kind of thing that brings me closer that kind of thing that brings me closer to God in the long run. And so I have to God in the long run. And so I have to God in the long run. And so I have learned to make disciplines out of those learned to make disciplines out of those learned to make disciplines out of those sorts of things. I think there'd be many sorts of things. I think there'd be many sorts of things. I think there'd be many other examples of just daily habits that other examples of just daily habits that other examples of just daily habits that can help, some of which are obviously can help, some of which are obviously can help, some of which are obviously spiritual as I've just described and spiritual as I've just described and spiritual as I've just described and some of which are more practical, but I some of which are more practical, but I some of which are more practical, but I I do think in the in the grand scheme of I do think in the in the grand scheme of I do think in the in the grand scheme of things some of the things we've touched things some of the things we've touched things some of the things we've touched on already I I as a general rule trees, on already I I as a general rule trees, on already I I as a general rule trees, wide open spaces, children, wide open spaces, children, wide open spaces, children, um hugs make you much happier than um hugs make you much happier than um hugs make you much happier than screens, money, screens, money, screens, money, budget you know, things which There are budget you know, things which There are budget you know, things which There are things which in themselves present them things which in themselves present them things which in themselves present them so you have to deal with them, you have so you have to deal with them, you have so you have to deal with them, you have to interact with them. We're talking on to interact with them. We're talking on to interact with them. We're talking on the screen now. You have to think about the screen now. You have to think about the screen now. You have to think about my equals you do. But the but the things my equals you do. But the but the things my equals you do. But the but the things that you're often drawn to do and the that you're often drawn to do and the that you're often drawn to do and the things that actually make you happier things that actually make you happier things that actually make you happier are often not the same and I think are often not the same and I think are often not the same and I think learning what they are and then making learning what they are and then making learning what they are and then making habits out of it is really fruitful. habits out of it is really fruitful. habits out of it is really fruitful. >> Just to close out a few questions with >> Just to close out a few questions with >> Just to close out a few questions with Andrew about Remaking the World, how Andrew about Remaking the World, how Andrew about Remaking the World, how 1776 created the post-Christian West. I 1776 created the post-Christian West. I 1776 created the post-Christian West. I often say to Andrew and everybody else often say to Andrew and everybody else often say to Andrew and everybody else there are many books that I'm glad that there are many books that I'm glad that there are many books that I'm glad that I've read. There are a few books that I I've read. There are a few books that I I've read. There are a few books that I wish I had written. That was one of wish I had written. That was one of wish I had written. That was one of them. It's been 3 years now since you them. It's been 3 years now since you them. It's been 3 years now since you wrote Remaking the World. How Andrew are wrote Remaking the World. How Andrew are wrote Remaking the World. How Andrew are you celebrating the 250th anniversary of you celebrating the 250th anniversary of you celebrating the 250th anniversary of these United States?

these United States? these United States? >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> Well, occasionally trolling Americans >> Well, occasionally trolling Americans >> Well, occasionally trolling Americans with pictures of my book would be one with pictures of my book would be one with pictures of my book would be one way I guess. Um do you know what I was way I guess. Um do you know what I was way I guess. Um do you know what I was actually cuz I was in the with you. I actually cuz I was in the with you. I actually cuz I was in the with you. I was in the States a couple of weeks ago was in the States a couple of weeks ago was in the States a couple of weeks ago and I I asked people how do you think and I I asked people how do you think and I I asked people how do you think the 250th will be marked as distinct the 250th will be marked as distinct the 250th will be marked as distinct from the others? from the others? from the others? And basically everyone said, "I don't And basically everyone said, "I don't And basically everyone said, "I don't think it will. I think we'll do a 4th of think it will. I think we'll do a 4th of think it will. I think we'll do a 4th of July thing like we normally do and July thing like we normally do and July thing like we normally do and that'll be that because and you know that'll be that because and you know that'll be that because and you know what? So I mean I this is one of my one what? So I mean I this is one of my one what? So I mean I this is one of my one of my favorite um of my favorite um of my favorite um like my peak American experiences I was like my peak American experiences I was like my peak American experiences I was on the Mall in Washington, D.C. for a on the Mall in Washington, D.C. for a on the Mall in Washington, D.C. for a 4th of July fireworks display in 2006 4th of July fireworks display in 2006 4th of July fireworks display in 2006 and and and and it was the 230th anniversary which and it was the 230th anniversary which and it was the 230th anniversary which is not quite so big, but I've never is not quite so big, but I've never is not quite so big, but I've never experienced anything. I mean you guys experienced anything. I mean you guys experienced anything. I mean you guys do. We do pageantry better than you, I do. We do pageantry better than you, I do. We do pageantry better than you, I think with the royal family, the pomp think with the royal family, the pomp think with the royal family, the pomp and circumstance bit. But there is and circumstance bit. But there is and circumstance bit. But there is nothing like an American firework nothing like an American firework nothing like an American firework display, Bobby. I mean it really is. You display, Bobby. I mean it really is. You display, Bobby. I mean it really is. You guys are at your Even a baseball game guys are at your Even a baseball game guys are at your Even a baseball game is, like, it is just next level. That's is, like, it is just next level. That's is, like, it is just next level. That's You guys are contributing to the world You guys are contributing to the world You guys are contributing to the world in that way. Um so, I'm afraid I'll in that way. Um so, I'm afraid I'll in that way. Um so, I'm afraid I'll probably just be celebrating it probably just be celebrating it probably just be celebrating it vicariously and occasionally delighting vicariously and occasionally delighting vicariously and occasionally delighting in the fact that one day the American in the fact that one day the American in the fact that one day the American tax rebels will come home or something.

tax rebels will come home or something. tax rebels will come home or something. >> One day. I think part of what's >> One day. I think part of what's >> One day. I think part of what's confusing, Andrew, is that we're hosting confusing, Andrew, is that we're hosting confusing, Andrew, is that we're hosting the World Cup at the same time. the World Cup at the same time. the World Cup at the same time. >> Well, I know. And of course, that's >> Well, I know. And of course, that's >> Well, I know. And of course, that's what's confusing. what's confusing. what's confusing. On the islands I live on is going to be On the islands I live on is going to be On the islands I live on is going to be a much, much bigger deal and the 250th a much, much bigger deal and the 250th a much, much bigger deal and the 250th will be one. Is there a Presumably are will be one. Is there a Presumably are will be one. Is there a Presumably are there games actually on the 4th of July? there games actually on the 4th of July? there games actually on the 4th of July? I presume there aren't, but I don't I presume there aren't, but I don't I presume there aren't, but I don't know. know. know. >> I have I haven't looked, but it would be >> I have I haven't looked, but it would be >> I have I haven't looked, but it would be pretty surprising. Yeah. pretty surprising. Yeah. pretty surprising. Yeah. >> I I've actually got my my annual >> I I've actually got my my annual >> I I've actually got my my annual theological conference which I host. I theological conference which I host. I theological conference which I host. I have Peter Williams and me are going to have Peter Williams and me are going to have Peter Williams and me are going to do Luke's Gospel together do Luke's Gospel together do Luke's Gospel together um in the a 3-day run about two or three um in the a 3-day run about two or three um in the a 3-day run about two or three days after the 4th of July. And we have days after the 4th of July. And we have days after the 4th of July. And we have all these pastors and and and interested all these pastors and and and interested all these pastors and and and interested theologians coming. And uh but we often theologians coming. And uh but we often theologians coming. And uh but we often put on the football the World Cup when put on the football the World Cup when put on the football the World Cup when it's a World Cup match. Uh every 4 years it's a World Cup match. Uh every 4 years it's a World Cup match. Uh every 4 years we then put that on in the evening after we then put that on in the evening after we then put that on in the evening after we finished it on the big screen and we finished it on the big screen and we finished it on the big screen and it's oh, it's a delight. Unless it's oh, it's a delight. Unless it's oh, it's a delight. Unless England's playing, in which case it's England's playing, in which case it's England's playing, in which case it's terrifying. terrifying. terrifying. >> Two round of 16 games will be played on >> Two round of 16 games will be played on >> Two round of 16 games will be played on July 4th. July 4th. July 4th. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> I looked it up. >> I looked it up. >> I looked it up. >> England might even be playing. Wow. >> England might even be playing. Wow. >> England might even be playing. Wow. >> Possibly. Possibly. Hopefully in >> Possibly. Possibly. Hopefully in >> Possibly. Possibly. Hopefully in somewhere as lovely as my beloved Kansas somewhere as lovely as my beloved Kansas somewhere as lovely as my beloved Kansas City. Hopefully you'll get lucky.

City. Hopefully you'll get lucky. City. Hopefully you'll get lucky. >> Oh, well. >> Oh, well. >> Oh, well. >> to do that. >> to do that. >> to do that. Um all right. So, have you learned Um all right. So, have you learned Um all right. So, have you learned anything since the book about 1776? anything since the book about 1776? anything since the book about 1776? >> Yes, and I'm going to forget what it >> Yes, and I'm going to forget what it >> Yes, and I'm going to forget what it was. I had a really I I Some This was. I had a really I I Some This was. I had a really I I Some This sometimes happens when you read sometimes happens when you read sometimes happens when you read something after you've published and you something after you've published and you something after you've published and you think, "Oh, I wish I'd read that story." think, "Oh, I wish I'd read that story." think, "Oh, I wish I'd read that story." But now I can't remember what it is. I But now I can't remember what it is. I But now I can't remember what it is. I definitely did and I definitely did and I definitely did and I I'm This is a cuz it's caught me on the I'm This is a cuz it's caught me on the I'm This is a cuz it's caught me on the hop. I don't have a factoid, but I hop. I don't have a factoid, but I hop. I don't have a factoid, but I remember reading remember reading remember reading something uh probably about a nation something uh probably about a nation something uh probably about a nation that it was not that it was not that it was not Britain, France, Germany, or America, Britain, France, Germany, or America, Britain, France, Germany, or America, which is where most of the action is. which is where most of the action is. which is where most of the action is. >> just another thing that happened in 1776 >> just another thing that happened in 1776 >> just another thing that happened in 1776 in some part of the world. in some part of the world. in some part of the world. >> such a good story and that would have >> such a good story and that would have >> such a good story and that would have really weaved in, but I just can't really weaved in, but I just can't really weaved in, but I just can't remember what it was. Also, that's a remember what it was. Also, that's a remember what it was. Also, that's a terrible answer. terrible answer. terrible answer. >> No, it's all good. All good. Um >> No, it's all good. All good. Um >> No, it's all good. All good. Um somebody asked me this question recently somebody asked me this question recently somebody asked me this question recently and I think Americans are the worst to and I think Americans are the worst to and I think Americans are the worst to be able to answer it. But I bet you be able to answer it. But I bet you be able to answer it. But I bet you could. could. could. What makes the United States unique? What makes the United States unique? What makes the United States unique? >> Well, your firework displays and your >> Well, your firework displays and your >> Well, your firework displays and your baseball games are one. No, I So, I I baseball games are one. No, I So, I I baseball games are one. No, I So, I I think think think I do think that embedded I do think that embedded I do think that embedded in your national story in your national story in your national story for all of its complexities and its for all of its complexities and its for all of its complexities and its problems, which we wouldn't go into now problems, which we wouldn't go into now problems, which we wouldn't go into now and you would know much more about than and you would know much more about than and you would know much more about than me.

me. me. I think there is a very attractive I think there is a very attractive I think there is a very attractive vision, an optimism vision, an optimism vision, an optimism and a and a sense of that hasn't quite and a and a sense of that hasn't quite and a and a sense of that hasn't quite been eroded by the last you know, been eroded by the last you know, been eroded by the last you know, actually since we were talking about it actually since we were talking about it actually since we were talking about it earlier, that the years since sort of earlier, that the years since sort of earlier, that the years since sort of the the chaos of the '60s and so on and the the chaos of the '60s and so on and the the chaos of the '60s and so on and Vietnam, that hasn't quite been lost. Vietnam, that hasn't quite been lost. Vietnam, that hasn't quite been lost. There is a we can be There is a we can be There is a we can be I mean, I'm It's so difficult cuz I've I mean, I'm It's so difficult cuz I've I mean, I'm It's so difficult cuz I've got a politically complicated because, got a politically complicated because, got a politically complicated because, as you might expect, I'm I'm I'm not at as you might expect, I'm I'm I'm not at as you might expect, I'm I'm I'm not at all a sort of all a sort of all a sort of a right-wing Republican American and my a right-wing Republican American and my a right-wing Republican American and my just I'm just I'm British, that's not just I'm just I'm British, that's not just I'm just I'm British, that's not how we think, but but there is something how we think, but but there is something how we think, but but there is something of a kind of a greatness or a of a kind of a greatness or a of a kind of a greatness or a contribution to the world, which at its contribution to the world, which at its contribution to the world, which at its best best best has got that there's you almost have to has got that there's you almost have to has got that there's you almost have to have a little bit of have a little bit of have a little bit of um um um naivety to the potential downsides of naivety to the potential downsides of naivety to the potential downsides of something to be able to do really something to be able to do really something to be able to do really innovative, exciting things. I think innovative, exciting things. I think innovative, exciting things. I think sometimes you need people to sometimes you need people to sometimes you need people to to to step out and say, "You know what? to to step out and say, "You know what? to to step out and say, "You know what? We're not going to be blinded by the We're not going to be blinded by the We're not going to be blinded by the possible downsides here or the cynicism possible downsides here or the cynicism possible downsides here or the cynicism or whatever. We're just going to do or whatever. We're just going to do or whatever. We're just going to do something and hope that it works." And something and hope that it works." And something and hope that it works." And there is a lot of that in your country, there is a lot of that in your country, there is a lot of that in your country, not only in the sort of the big not only in the sort of the big not only in the sort of the big companies, which obviously create a lot companies, which obviously create a lot companies, which obviously create a lot of the sort of wealth and new of the sort of wealth and new of the sort of wealth and new technologies, but some good, some bad, technologies, but some good, some bad, technologies, but some good, some bad, not just in your political, you know, not just in your political, you know, not just in your political, you know, ecosystem, which sometimes leads to ecosystem, which sometimes leads to ecosystem, which sometimes leads to chaos, but sometimes leads to great chaos, but sometimes leads to great chaos, but sometimes leads to great results.

results. results. And not just in your sort of moral And not just in your sort of moral And not just in your sort of moral progress, but actually just in the sort progress, but actually just in the sort progress, but actually just in the sort of ordinary places you go in North of ordinary places you go in North of ordinary places you go in North America where I just find I'm so often America where I just find I'm so often America where I just find I'm so often interacting with people who just think interacting with people who just think interacting with people who just think that there's something really great that there's something really great that there's something really great about where they live, and I think that about where they live, and I think that about where they live, and I think that that that that as a I mean I I do too, by the way, as a I mean I I do too, by the way, as a I mean I I do too, by the way, about Britain. about Britain. about Britain. But there is a there's a lot more in But there is a there's a lot more in But there is a there's a lot more in Europe. There's a lot more sort of Europe. There's a lot more sort of Europe. There's a lot more sort of Sometimes people are a bit more Sometimes people are a bit more Sometimes people are a bit more jaundiced and a bit more feel like tired jaundiced and a bit more feel like tired jaundiced and a bit more feel like tired and so on. And I do feel like that and so on. And I do feel like that and so on. And I do feel like that there's a sort of a youthful I know it there's a sort of a youthful I know it there's a sort of a youthful I know it sounds crazy cuz the country's so much sounds crazy cuz the country's so much sounds crazy cuz the country's so much older than many others, older than many others, older than many others, but it does still feel like there's a but it does still feel like there's a but it does still feel like there's a sort of a a youthful positivity and sort of a a youthful positivity and sort of a a youthful positivity and optimism, which I think hasn't quite optimism, which I think hasn't quite optimism, which I think hasn't quite gone away. And I think if it hasn't gone gone away. And I think if it hasn't gone gone away. And I think if it hasn't gone away now with all that's gone on in the away now with all that's gone on in the away now with all that's gone on in the last 15 or 20 years, I it maybe it last 15 or 20 years, I it maybe it last 15 or 20 years, I it maybe it won't. Maybe it's just there to stay. won't. Maybe it's just there to stay. won't. Maybe it's just there to stay. Maybe it's just baked into the kind of Maybe it's just baked into the kind of Maybe it's just baked into the kind of people the founding fathers were and the people the founding fathers were and the people the founding fathers were and the kind of history you have with all of its kind of history you have with all of its kind of history you have with all of its problems, we know. Um problems, we know. Um problems, we know. Um and I love it. And I just find America and I love it. And I just find America and I love it. And I just find America infectiously infectiously infectiously every time I go to America, I kind of every time I go to America, I kind of every time I go to America, I kind of think I love this place. I really I It's think I love this place. I really I It's think I love this place. I really I It's just a And I've been to a lot of just a And I've been to a lot of just a And I've been to a lot of different parts of the country, but I different parts of the country, but I different parts of the country, but I That is something that seems to be That is something that seems to be That is something that seems to be common to all of them, even whether it's common to all of them, even whether it's common to all of them, even whether it's New York or it's the middle of nowhere New York or it's the middle of nowhere New York or it's the middle of nowhere in Missouri or in Missouri or in Missouri or >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> [gasps] >> you know, I It's just fascinating. I >> you know, I It's just fascinating. I >> you know, I It's just fascinating. I don't know what I don't know quite why don't know what I don't know quite why don't know what I don't know quite why it's there. Texas, you know, that But it's there. Texas, you know, that But it's there. Texas, you know, that But there's something that they have in there's something that they have in there's something that they have in common. You're sitting having sitting in common. You're sitting having sitting in common. You're sitting having sitting in a diner in any of those three places, a diner in any of those three places, a diner in any of those three places, you you pick up the same vibes of a kind you you pick up the same vibes of a kind you you pick up the same vibes of a kind of can-do optimism, which I really love.

of can-do optimism, which I really love. of can-do optimism, which I really love. And I think it is at the moment your And I think it is at the moment your And I think it is at the moment your your greatest asset. your greatest asset. your greatest asset. >> Hadn't really thought about it this way, >> Hadn't really thought about it this way, >> Hadn't really thought about it this way, Andrew, and that's why I asked you the Andrew, and that's why I asked you the Andrew, and that's why I asked you the question. question. question. But I think if you ask Americans, But I think if you ask Americans, But I think if you ask Americans, are the United States' best days ahead? are the United States' best days ahead? are the United States' best days ahead? I think they'd probably say yes. I think they'd probably say yes. I think they'd probably say yes. Now, there's there are different Now, there's there are different Now, there's there are different nostalgic streams, and essentially nostalgic streams, and essentially nostalgic streams, and essentially American politics is the the conflict American politics is the the conflict American politics is the the conflict between two nostalgias, the '50s versus between two nostalgias, the '50s versus between two nostalgias, the '50s versus the '60s. the '60s. the '60s. Um but underneath, there's still this Um but underneath, there's still this Um but underneath, there's still this general sense that general sense that general sense that with some new technological innovation with some new technological innovation with some new technological innovation or some new recovery of of founding or some new recovery of of founding or some new recovery of of founding principles or a religious revival principles or a religious revival principles or a religious revival that our best days are still ahead. that our best days are still ahead. that our best days are still ahead. I'm guessing that not many British I'm guessing that not many British I'm guessing that not many British people would answer the same way. people would answer the same way. people would answer the same way. >> Yeah, I I think that's true and I think >> Yeah, I I think that's true and I think >> Yeah, I I think that's true and I think some of that is superpower thinking some of that is superpower thinking some of that is superpower thinking because I think it objectively because I think it objectively because I think it objectively considered someone from outside considered someone from outside considered someone from outside analyzing your country would would say I analyzing your country would would say I analyzing your country would would say I cannot see in the foreseeable future in cannot see in the foreseeable future in cannot see in the foreseeable future in the lifetime even of my the lifetime even of my the lifetime even of my children or maybe even their children children or maybe even their children children or maybe even their children America being displaced as the world's America being displaced as the world's America being displaced as the world's most influential powerful nation, which most influential powerful nation, which most influential powerful nation, which is clearly not is clearly not is clearly not clearly not true in my I think the clearly not true in my I think the clearly not true in my I think the challenge of course that all nations challenge of course that all nations challenge of course that all nations have is that when they do get knocked have is that when they do get knocked have is that when they do get knocked off top spot what they then do to off top spot what they then do to off top spot what they then do to discover and this is the famous line of discover and this is the famous line of discover and this is the famous line of your I think he was Secretary of State your I think he was Secretary of State your I think he was Secretary of State at the time in the in the 60s when he at the time in the in the 60s when he at the time in the in the 60s when he said Britain has lost an empire and has said Britain has lost an empire and has said Britain has lost an empire and has not yet found a role and we that weighs not yet found a role and we that weighs not yet found a role and we that weighs heavily on a lot of British people who heavily on a lot of British people who heavily on a lot of British people who know that line or know that line or know that line or thinking about that period.

thinking about that period. thinking about that period. But to some degree I think that happens But to some degree I think that happens But to some degree I think that happens to everybody when their empire fades to everybody when their empire fades to everybody when their empire fades and what you do then I think Britain and what you do then I think Britain and what you do then I think Britain then reinvented itself as a producer of then reinvented itself as a producer of then reinvented itself as a producer of pop culture and of of of drama and pop culture and of of of drama and pop culture and of of of drama and television and music and pop art and television and music and pop art and television and music and pop art and that sort of thing and and that in a way that sort of thing and and that in a way that sort of thing and and that in a way has become that's our thing and if you has become that's our thing and if you has become that's our thing and if you watch our Olympic you know display watch our Olympic you know display watch our Olympic you know display opening ceremony that's what we lean opening ceremony that's what we lean opening ceremony that's what we lean into into into with a bit of royal family thrown in. with a bit of royal family thrown in. with a bit of royal family thrown in. What America will do in 2200 when it What America will do in 2200 when it What America will do in 2200 when it isn't the most powerful nation in the isn't the most powerful nation in the isn't the most powerful nation in the world anymore and how however that world anymore and how however that world anymore and how however that optimism will still be there then I optimism will still be there then I optimism will still be there then I don't know. But there's a long way don't know. But there's a long way don't know. But there's a long way before then and I yeah, I feel like the before then and I yeah, I feel like the before then and I yeah, I feel like the optimism is in is infectious. optimism is in is infectious. optimism is in is infectious. >> Well, I think one day it wouldn't be a >> Well, I think one day it wouldn't be a >> Well, I think one day it wouldn't be a surprise if historians surprise if historians surprise if historians our descendants looked back and said oh, our descendants looked back and said oh, our descendants looked back and said oh, America was all downhill from June 6th, America was all downhill from June 6th, America was all downhill from June 6th, 1944 1944 1944 the Normandy landings or America was all the Normandy landings or America was all the Normandy landings or America was all downhill from August 6th, 1945 which was downhill from August 6th, 1945 which was downhill from August 6th, 1945 which was the Hiroshima bombing. Oh, yeah, that the Hiroshima bombing. Oh, yeah, that the Hiroshima bombing. Oh, yeah, that was the peak of their power. That was was the peak of their power. That was was the peak of their power. That was the peak of their influence.

the peak of their influence. the peak of their influence. But, it's not lived and experienced that But, it's not lived and experienced that But, it's not lived and experienced that way. way. way. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Um in part because of our limited >> Um in part because of our limited >> Um in part because of our limited perspective, but also probably in part perspective, but also probably in part perspective, but also probably in part because of something that's embedded in because of something that's embedded in because of something that's embedded in the national character, the national character, the national character, which I you you put it so well, the which I you you put it so well, the which I you you put it so well, the naivete the naivete to believe that you naivete the naivete to believe that you naivete the naivete to believe that you can still change the world or remake the can still change the world or remake the can still change the world or remake the world. It's said right there, the unique world. It's said right there, the unique world. It's said right there, the unique character having been those people who character having been those people who character having been those people who one way or another were the people who one way or another were the people who one way or another were the people who settled, colonized, um conquered the new settled, colonized, um conquered the new settled, colonized, um conquered the new world. One of the most amazing and world. One of the most amazing and world. One of the most amazing and shocking achievements and discoveries of shocking achievements and discoveries of shocking achievements and discoveries of obviously all time. obviously all time. obviously all time. Uh so, uh sometimes when you're close to Uh so, uh sometimes when you're close to Uh so, uh sometimes when you're close to it, you don't see it. You just take it it, you don't see it. You just take it it, you don't see it. You just take it for granted. But, how true is that of so for granted. But, how true is that of so for granted. But, how true is that of so many different things? And I think what many different things? And I think what many different things? And I think what links these together, Andrew, is this links these together, Andrew, is this links these together, Andrew, is this perspective that when when we can gain perspective that when when we can gain perspective that when when we can gain perspective, especially divine perspective, especially divine perspective, especially divine perspective on our lives, it infuses us perspective on our lives, it infuses us perspective on our lives, it infuses us with so much gratefulness. And with so much gratefulness. And with so much gratefulness. And ultimately, that is the fuel of so much ultimately, that is the fuel of so much ultimately, that is the fuel of so much happiness, as well.

happiness, as well. happiness, as well. >> Yeah. Well, if I if I may, just an >> Yeah. Well, if I if I may, just an >> Yeah. Well, if I if I may, just an integrating final comment from me, integrating final comment from me, integrating final comment from me, I talk in the book at at one point about I talk in the book at at one point about I talk in the book at at one point about the difference in and this goes right the difference in and this goes right the difference in and this goes right back to the very opening comments you back to the very opening comments you back to the very opening comments you made about temperament. made about temperament. made about temperament. Uh that there is a that Uh that there is a that Uh that there is a that psychologists talk about, you know, or psychologists talk about, you know, or psychologists talk about, you know, or some psychologists use the language of some psychologists use the language of some psychologists use the language of discovery mode and defense mode that we discovery mode and defense mode that we discovery mode and defense mode that we we have to have both. We have to defend we have to have both. We have to defend we have to have both. We have to defend ourselves against possible predators, ourselves against possible predators, ourselves against possible predators, and we have to discover possible food and we have to discover possible food and we have to discover possible food sources. And as a result, those two sources. And as a result, those two sources. And as a result, those two things are in conflict within us. But, things are in conflict within us. But, things are in conflict within us. But, some of us lean more to discovery, some some of us lean more to discovery, some some of us lean more to discovery, some of us lean more to defense. And of us lean more to defense. And of us lean more to defense. And generally, those who lean more to generally, those who lean more to generally, those who lean more to discovery are temperamentally more discovery are temperamentally more discovery are temperamentally more upbeat and happier, but they're also upbeat and happier, but they're also upbeat and happier, but they're also more likely to die in car crashes or more likely to die in car crashes or more likely to die in car crashes or have make terrible misjudgments or be on have make terrible misjudgments or be on have make terrible misjudgments or be on the Darwin Awards. And that's me. I stub the Darwin Awards. And that's me. I stub the Darwin Awards. And that's me. I stub my toe an awful lot, but I also smile a my toe an awful lot, but I also smile a my toe an awful lot, but I also smile a lot. And those of us who are more prone lot. And those of us who are more prone lot. And those of us who are more prone to defense, which is again at least half to defense, which is again at least half to defense, which is again at least half of us, are more likely to make sometimes of us, are more likely to make sometimes of us, are more likely to make sometimes better judgments about possible risks better judgments about possible risks better judgments about possible risks and assess those. But they might and assess those. But they might and assess those. But they might probably also more likely to probably also more likely to probably also more likely to feel sad.

feel sad. feel sad. Or to to to not be as as optimistic Or to to to not be as as optimistic Or to to to not be as as optimistic about the future. And I think to map about the future. And I think to map about the future. And I think to map that onto the national conversation that onto the national conversation that onto the national conversation we've just been having, I think you we've just been having, I think you we've just been having, I think you you clearly America has to defend itself you clearly America has to defend itself you clearly America has to defend itself and does and all those sorts of things. and does and all those sorts of things. and does and all those sorts of things. But I think the word discovery still But I think the word discovery still But I think the word discovery still chimes in America. I think you still chimes in America. I think you still chimes in America. I think you still you still you when people make billions you still you when people make billions you still you when people make billions of billions of dollars in America, they of billions of dollars in America, they of billions of dollars in America, they go let's send some rockets. You know, go let's send some rockets. You know, go let's send some rockets. You know, let's let's go let's go fly around the let's let's go let's go fly around the let's let's go let's go fly around the moon again. Let's go to Mars. And that's moon again. Let's go to Mars. And that's moon again. Let's go to Mars. And that's obviously I I'm a bit Westwing I suppose obviously I I'm a bit Westwing I suppose obviously I I'm a bit Westwing I suppose in this. There's a sort of heroism of in this. There's a sort of heroism of in this. There's a sort of heroism of it. But I do think that the the desire it. But I do think that the the desire it. But I do think that the the desire to discover and it that some of that is to discover and it that some of that is to discover and it that some of that is simply the sheer size of the continent simply the sheer size of the continent simply the sheer size of the continent you're on. But there is discovery is you're on. But there is discovery is you're on. But there is discovery is built into what America is and I think built into what America is and I think built into what America is and I think that is one of the reasons it's a that is one of the reasons it's a that is one of the reasons it's a positive place. So, and one of the positive place. So, and one of the positive place. So, and one of the reasons why discovery is good for reasons why discovery is good for reasons why discovery is good for happiness, which is why you should read happiness, which is why you should read happiness, which is why you should read this book. this book. this book. >> There you go. The book is happiness, >> There you go. The book is happiness, >> There you go. The book is happiness, what it is, where to find it, how to what it is, where to find it, how to what it is, where to find it, how to make it last forever by Andrew Wilson. make it last forever by Andrew Wilson. make it last forever by Andrew Wilson. That's new from Crossway. But again, That's new from Crossway. But again, That's new from Crossway. But again, from 3 years ago, Remaking the World, from 3 years ago, Remaking the World, from 3 years ago, Remaking the World, how 1776 created the post-Christian how 1776 created the post-Christian how 1776 created the post-Christian West. West. West. I- if, you know, grab the book, take it I- if, you know, grab the book, take it I- if, you know, grab the book, take it in a baseball game, bring it to the in a baseball game, bring it to the in a baseball game, bring it to the baseball game even. You know, the baseball game even. You know, the baseball game even. You know, the fireworks are at the end when it's dark fireworks are at the end when it's dark fireworks are at the end when it's dark at the baseball game. So, read the book at the baseball game. So, read the book at the baseball game. So, read the book if you don't like baseball and then if you don't like baseball and then if you don't like baseball and then enjoy the fireworks and [music] thank enjoy the fireworks and [music] thank enjoy the fireworks and [music] thank Andrew Wilson for his work. And thanks Andrew Wilson for his work. And thanks Andrew Wilson for his work. And thanks Andrew for taking time here on Gospel Andrew for taking time here on Gospel Andrew for taking time here on Gospel Bound.

Bound. Bound. I'm so much happier having talked with I'm so much happier having talked with I'm so much happier having talked with you today. you today. you today. >> Appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. >> Appreciate it. >> [music] >> Thanks for listening to this episode of >> Thanks for listening to this episode of Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to Gospel Bound. For more interviews and to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to sign up for my newsletter, head over to tgc.org/gospelbound. tgc.org/gospelbound. tgc.org/gospelbound. [music] [music] [music] Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your Rate and review Gospel Bound on your favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can favorite podcast platform so others can join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, join the conversation. Until next time, remember, remember, remember, >> [music] >> [music] >> [music] >> when we're bound to the gospel, we >> when we're bound to the gospel, we >> when we're bound to the gospel, we abound in hope.