AI and Work: What happens when AI can do your job better? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 1]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition podcast from the Gospel Coalition podcast from the Gospel Coalition exploring what it means to be human in exploring what it means to be human in exploring what it means to be human in the age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, the age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, the age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in each episode, we're circling and in each episode, we're circling and in each episode, we're circling around three crucial questions. What can around three crucial questions. What can around three crucial questions. What can AI do for us? What is it doing to us? AI do for us? What is it doing to us? AI do for us? What is it doing to us? And what does it show us about who we And what does it show us about who we And what does it show us about who we really are? really are? really are? And today I'm joined by Rachel Gillson, And today I'm joined by Rachel Gillson, And today I'm joined by Rachel Gillson, uh, director of theological development uh, director of theological development uh, director of theological development and culture for the campus ministry crew and culture for the campus ministry crew and culture for the campus ministry crew and author of Born Again this Way and and author of Born Again this Way and and author of Born Again this Way and Parenting Without Panic in an LGBT Parenting Without Panic in an LGBT Parenting Without Panic in an LGBT affirming world. affirming world. affirming world. And in this episode, we're very I'm And in this episode, we're very I'm And in this episode, we're very I'm going to be thinking about work, what it going to be thinking about work, what it going to be thinking about work, what it is, uh how AI might be changing it, uh is, uh how AI might be changing it, uh is, uh how AI might be changing it, uh and what that means for our view of and what that means for our view of and what that means for our view of ourselves. Rachel, welcome to the ourselves. Rachel, welcome to the ourselves. Rachel, welcome to the podcast. podcast. podcast. >> Yeah, it's great to be on with you, >> Yeah, it's great to be on with you, >> Yeah, it's great to be on with you, Chris. Chris. Chris. >> I'd love to start, Rachel, by just >> I'd love to start, Rachel, by just >> I'd love to start, Rachel, by just painting a picture for you and asking painting a picture for you and asking painting a picture for you and asking you to to react to this particular you to to react to this particular you to to react to this particular scenario. So, I want you to imagine uh scenario. So, I want you to imagine uh scenario. So, I want you to imagine uh Jesse.

Jesse. Jesse. Jesse is a final year college student uh Jesse is a final year college student uh Jesse is a final year college student uh doing an arts degree. And although he's doing an arts degree. And although he's doing an arts degree. And although he's very scrupulously never used AI in his very scrupulously never used AI in his very scrupulously never used AI in his own assignments, his friends do and they own assignments, his friends do and they own assignments, his friends do and they actually get better marks than he does. actually get better marks than he does. actually get better marks than he does. And that makes him really angry. And that makes him really angry. And that makes him really angry. >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> [laughter] >> job advisers keep telling him uh that if >> job advisers keep telling him uh that if >> job advisers keep telling him uh that if his job isn't taken by AI, then it'll his job isn't taken by AI, then it'll his job isn't taken by AI, then it'll probably be taken by someone who knows probably be taken by someone who knows probably be taken by someone who knows how to use AI better than he does. And how to use AI better than he does. And how to use AI better than he does. And his passion, ever since he was young, is his passion, ever since he was young, is his passion, ever since he was young, is to be a writer. Uh but he sees fewer and to be a writer. Uh but he sees fewer and to be a writer. Uh but he sees fewer and fewer entry-level writing jobs in in fewer entry-level writing jobs in in fewer entry-level writing jobs in in journalism or anywhere else. And he he's journalism or anywhere else. And he he's journalism or anywhere else. And he he's beginning to wonder whether there's any beginning to wonder whether there's any beginning to wonder whether there's any future for him at all. Um how might you future for him at all. Um how might you future for him at all. Um how might you counel someone like Jesse? Well, I think counel someone like Jesse? Well, I think counel someone like Jesse? Well, I think the, you know, in this hypothetical the, you know, in this hypothetical the, you know, in this hypothetical situation, this young man who's avoided situation, this young man who's avoided situation, this young man who's avoided all AI tools in his course of study, all AI tools in his course of study, all AI tools in his course of study, that's it's quite the hero's challenge that's it's quite the hero's challenge that's it's quite the hero's challenge on that part. But I think there's, you on that part. But I think there's, you on that part. But I think there's, you know, there's so many different know, there's so many different know, there's so many different anxieties and hopes and dreams in this anxieties and hopes and dreams in this anxieties and hopes and dreams in this situation. On the one hand, I think this situation. On the one hand, I think this situation. On the one hand, I think this theoretical adviser is probably right.

theoretical adviser is probably right. theoretical adviser is probably right. There's going to be plenty of job There's going to be plenty of job There's going to be plenty of job opportunities opportunities opportunities for people who are more exposed to AI for people who are more exposed to AI for people who are more exposed to AI tools and how to use them well than tools and how to use them well than tools and how to use them well than those who have no exposure. those who have no exposure. those who have no exposure. So to Jesse, I might say, "Hey, I think So to Jesse, I might say, "Hey, I think So to Jesse, I might say, "Hey, I think it's really good that maybe you haven't it's really good that maybe you haven't it's really good that maybe you haven't used AI tools in terms of the cheating used AI tools in terms of the cheating used AI tools in terms of the cheating aspect, aspect, aspect, but it might actually be worth playing but it might actually be worth playing but it might actually be worth playing around with some of them to figure out, around with some of them to figure out, around with some of them to figure out, you know, how they're useful." But the you know, how they're useful." But the you know, how they're useful." But the other thing I might counsel is you know other thing I might counsel is you know other thing I might counsel is you know anyone coming out of undergraduate or anyone coming out of undergraduate or anyone coming out of undergraduate or you know coming up to the end of it you know coming up to the end of it you know coming up to the end of it there can for anyone be just so many there can for anyone be just so many there can for anyone be just so many anxieties about what am I going to do? anxieties about what am I going to do? anxieties about what am I going to do? How am I going to use the gifts that God How am I going to use the gifts that God How am I going to use the gifts that God has given me? How am I going to provide has given me? How am I going to provide has given me? How am I going to provide for myself? So he's not necessarily in a for myself? So he's not necessarily in a for myself? So he's not necessarily in a brand new scenario even though the rise brand new scenario even though the rise brand new scenario even though the rise of these tools of these tools of these tools can create kind of new anxieties. But can create kind of new anxieties. But can create kind of new anxieties. But the thing that the tools cannot really the thing that the tools cannot really the thing that the tools cannot really do yet is write compellingly. They can do yet is write compellingly. They can do yet is write compellingly. They can do AI tools can do all kinds of do AI tools can do all kinds of do AI tools can do all kinds of wonderful things.

wonderful things. wonderful things. But writing, especially writing that's But writing, especially writing that's But writing, especially writing that's in our own voice that draws on our own in our own voice that draws on our own in our own voice that draws on our own gifts and experiences and expertise, gifts and experiences and expertise, gifts and experiences and expertise, that's that's still going to be worth that's that's still going to be worth that's that's still going to be worth something right now and and I think even something right now and and I think even something right now and and I think even into the medium future. So I wouldn't into the medium future. So I wouldn't into the medium future. So I wouldn't want him to despair. I would think want him to despair. I would think want him to despair. I would think through listen if you if you think this through listen if you if you think this through listen if you if you think this is a gift and a call that you have keep is a gift and a call that you have keep is a gift and a call that you have keep pursuing growing in the craft of writing pursuing growing in the craft of writing pursuing growing in the craft of writing figure out some of these AI tools and figure out some of these AI tools and figure out some of these AI tools and what they're good for. But for you for what they're good for. But for you for what they're good for. But for you for finding your voice and your contribution finding your voice and your contribution finding your voice and your contribution just keep doing it. There might not be, just keep doing it. There might not be, just keep doing it. There might not be, you know, the same kinds or the same you know, the same kinds or the same you know, the same kinds or the same amount of entry- level jobs in writing, amount of entry- level jobs in writing, amount of entry- level jobs in writing, but writing is such a but writing is such a but writing is such a it's such a useful tool for anything you it's such a useful tool for anything you it's such a useful tool for anything you might do, but investing in it, even if might do, but investing in it, even if might do, but investing in it, even if you get a job that is only tangentially you get a job that is only tangentially you get a job that is only tangentially related. At first, I wouldn't want him related. At first, I wouldn't want him related. At first, I wouldn't want him to give up hope. Say, keep investing in to give up hope. Say, keep investing in to give up hope. Say, keep investing in the craft. See what the Lord will do.

the craft. See what the Lord will do. the craft. See what the Lord will do. >> That's such good advice. And I I love >> That's such good advice. And I I love >> That's such good advice. And I I love the way that you you put your finger the way that you you put your finger the way that you you put your finger really precisely, I think, on what it is really precisely, I think, on what it is really precisely, I think, on what it is that AI can't do there because it can do that AI can't do there because it can do that AI can't do there because it can do so much of the writing craft. It can so much of the writing craft. It can so much of the writing craft. It can write already at the stage things are at write already at the stage things are at write already at the stage things are at now incredibly well in many ways. One now incredibly well in many ways. One now incredibly well in many ways. One way that I heard it put recently was way that I heard it put recently was way that I heard it put recently was that it can write, but it can't witness. that it can write, but it can't witness. that it can write, but it can't witness. And a lot of writing And a lot of writing And a lot of writing >> is witnessing. It's it's from my >> is witnessing. It's it's from my >> is witnessing. It's it's from my experience as a situated human being. experience as a situated human being. experience as a situated human being. this is how I see the world. Let me tell this is how I see the world. Let me tell this is how I see the world. Let me tell you what it looks like from my you what it looks like from my you what it looks like from my perspective. But the thing about AI is perspective. But the thing about AI is perspective. But the thing about AI is that it doesn't have a perspective that it doesn't have a perspective that it doesn't have a perspective because it's aggregated from so many because it's aggregated from so many because it's aggregated from so many millions of different perspectives. millions of different perspectives. millions of different perspectives. >> That's right. Yeah. You know, recently >> That's right. Yeah. You know, recently >> That's right. Yeah. You know, recently uh I think it was sometime last year, I uh I think it was sometime last year, I uh I think it was sometime last year, I had a piece of organizational writing. had a piece of organizational writing. had a piece of organizational writing. So, for example, this is not my voice. So, for example, this is not my voice. So, for example, this is not my voice. It's not author Rachel Gillson. We had a It's not author Rachel Gillson. We had a It's not author Rachel Gillson. We had a document that was a certain I think it document that was a certain I think it document that was a certain I think it was like 13 pages. And we found out from was like 13 pages. And we found out from was like 13 pages. And we found out from our supervisors, listen, this document our supervisors, listen, this document our supervisors, listen, this document needs to be six pages by Monday. My team needs to be six pages by Monday. My team needs to be six pages by Monday. My team thought, my team and I thought, oh gosh, thought, my team and I thought, oh gosh, thought, my team and I thought, oh gosh, it was hard enough to get this at 13 it was hard enough to get this at 13 it was hard enough to get this at 13 pages. And honestly, we were able to, pages. And honestly, we were able to, pages. And honestly, we were able to, what we did is we took that document, we what we did is we took that document, we what we did is we took that document, we put it into one of the AI tools. We put it into one of the AI tools. We put it into one of the AI tools. We said, hey, can you can you cut this by said, hey, can you can you cut this by said, hey, can you can you cut this by half?

half? half? And the output that it gave us, we were And the output that it gave us, we were And the output that it gave us, we were like, ooh, you know what? This did a lot like, ooh, you know what? This did a lot like, ooh, you know what? This did a lot of that grunt kind of work at first. And of that grunt kind of work at first. And of that grunt kind of work at first. And then we spent a couple days then we spent a couple days then we spent a couple days editing really and saying like, "Oh, it editing really and saying like, "Oh, it editing really and saying like, "Oh, it cut that thing we want to put back. Oh, cut that thing we want to put back. Oh, cut that thing we want to put back. Oh, it rewarded this. We'll add a little bit it rewarded this. We'll add a little bit it rewarded this. We'll add a little bit of clarity." It was an example for me of of clarity." It was an example for me of of clarity." It was an example for me of like, "Oh, wait a minute. This tool in like, "Oh, wait a minute. This tool in like, "Oh, wait a minute. This tool in this situation is actually really useful this situation is actually really useful this situation is actually really useful because it it's keeping all of our core because it it's keeping all of our core because it it's keeping all of our core ideas from the team. It's not supposed ideas from the team. It's not supposed ideas from the team. It's not supposed to reflect any one particular uh author. to reflect any one particular uh author. to reflect any one particular uh author. It's just an organizational document." It's just an organizational document." It's just an organizational document." And it I mean it probably saved us days And it I mean it probably saved us days And it I mean it probably saved us days worth of work. That for me was a worth of work. That for me was a worth of work. That for me was a breakthrough of like wait a minute. I breakthrough of like wait a minute. I breakthrough of like wait a minute. I think there's all kinds of places AI think there's all kinds of places AI think there's all kinds of places AI tools shouldn't go but I probably need tools shouldn't go but I probably need tools shouldn't go but I probably need to have a little different perspective to have a little different perspective to have a little different perspective on there are some places where it can be on there are some places where it can be on there are some places where it can be incredibly useful. The trick is going to incredibly useful. The trick is going to incredibly useful. The trick is going to be be be uh can we be people who um uh can we be people who um uh can we be people who um discern the difference? Well, that's discern the difference? Well, that's discern the difference? Well, that's really interesting. I I didn't know you really interesting. I I didn't know you really interesting. I I didn't know you were going to say that. So, as an author were going to say that. So, as an author were going to say that. So, as an author whose work whose work whose work fundamentally relies on your words being fundamentally relies on your words being fundamentally relies on your words being your own, you your position is is your own, you your position is is your own, you your position is is crucial to your writing. Your your crucial to your writing. Your your crucial to your writing. Your your attitude to AI is sort of a would it be attitude to AI is sort of a would it be attitude to AI is sort of a would it be right to characterize it as a a right to characterize it as a a right to characterize it as a a symbiosis that there are that there symbiosis that there are that there symbiosis that there are that there there's a skill and a wisdom in knowing there's a skill and a wisdom in knowing there's a skill and a wisdom in knowing when to bring AI into the writing

when to bring AI into the writing when to bring AI into the writing process and when to shut it out? process and when to shut it out? process and when to shut it out? >> Yeah, I think so. which for me is >> Yeah, I think so. which for me is >> Yeah, I think so. which for me is actually I've had to grow to get there. actually I've had to grow to get there. actually I've had to grow to get there. I start with a base level high suspicion I start with a base level high suspicion I start with a base level high suspicion of AI tools. I think that's probably of AI tools. I think that's probably of AI tools. I think that's probably because my parents gave me unfettered because my parents gave me unfettered because my parents gave me unfettered access to the Terminator movies when I access to the Terminator movies when I access to the Terminator movies when I was a child. [laughter] So I easily go was a child. [laughter] So I easily go was a child. [laughter] So I easily go into just like visions of Skynet and I into just like visions of Skynet and I into just like visions of Skynet and I think I don't have the biceps of Sarah think I don't have the biceps of Sarah think I don't have the biceps of Sarah Connor so I'm not going to make it. Connor so I'm not going to make it. Connor so I'm not going to make it. But what I realized when my team, But what I realized when my team, But what I realized when my team, because I serve on the theological team because I serve on the theological team because I serve on the theological team for crew, when last year we said, "Hey, for crew, when last year we said, "Hey, for crew, when last year we said, "Hey, we need to start thinking about AI tools we need to start thinking about AI tools we need to start thinking about AI tools and really working on a Christian ethic and really working on a Christian ethic and really working on a Christian ethic of their use, of their use, of their use, especially for our missionaries." I especially for our missionaries." I especially for our missionaries." I realized I was having a baseline realized I was having a baseline realized I was having a baseline response to AI tools from fear response to AI tools from fear response to AI tools from fear instead of from faith, which I think the instead of from faith, which I think the instead of from faith, which I think the inappropriate thing would just to be inappropriate thing would just to be inappropriate thing would just to be jump from uncritical fear to uncritical jump from uncritical fear to uncritical jump from uncritical fear to uncritical acceptance. But I've spent a lot of time acceptance. But I've spent a lot of time acceptance. But I've spent a lot of time this past year trying to think what this past year trying to think what this past year trying to think what [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] how can I approach these tools for what how can I approach these tools for what how can I approach these tools for what they are? each individual tool. Um I they are? each individual tool. Um I they are? each individual tool. Um I have been given particular work to do by have been given particular work to do by have been given particular work to do by the Lord and my team has as well. And so the Lord and my team has as well. And so the Lord and my team has as well. And so we should be able to evaluate the tools we should be able to evaluate the tools we should be able to evaluate the tools piece by piece and think are these piece by piece and think are these piece by piece and think are these useful to us? If so, how? What remains useful to us? If so, how? What remains useful to us? If so, how? What remains specifically just our work to do? And specifically just our work to do? And specifically just our work to do? And and that's been really helpful to me to

and that's been really helpful to me to and that's been really helpful to me to realize there actually are certain types realize there actually are certain types realize there actually are certain types of writing or modes of writing where the of writing or modes of writing where the of writing or modes of writing where the use of a tool in the process can be use of a tool in the process can be use of a tool in the process can be extremely helpful. There'll be a lot of extremely helpful. There'll be a lot of extremely helpful. There'll be a lot of people listening to and watching this people listening to and watching this people listening to and watching this who will have to write a lot either for who will have to write a lot either for who will have to write a lot either for for work or in in secular work or in for work or in in secular work or in for work or in in secular work or in Christian ministry. I' I'd love you if Christian ministry. I' I'd love you if Christian ministry. I' I'd love you if if you're able just to lead us into that if you're able just to lead us into that if you're able just to lead us into that thinking that you've you've sketched for thinking that you've you've sketched for thinking that you've you've sketched for us. What are the principles that that us. What are the principles that that us. What are the principles that that you have in your mind? What are the you have in your mind? What are the you have in your mind? What are the things you pray about when you're things you pray about when you're things you pray about when you're working through how to integrate and working through how to integrate and working through how to integrate and whether to integrate AI with a whether to integrate AI with a whether to integrate AI with a particular writing task? Well, one of particular writing task? Well, one of particular writing task? Well, one of the texts that my team comes back to the texts that my team comes back to the texts that my team comes back to again and again [gasps] is Ananas and again and again [gasps] is Ananas and again and again [gasps] is Ananas and Safh [laughter] Safh [laughter] Safh [laughter] from Acts. And this I mean they weren't from Acts. And this I mean they weren't from Acts. And this I mean they weren't writing. But the question of integrity, writing. But the question of integrity, writing. But the question of integrity, they came to the community of faith and they came to the community of faith and they came to the community of faith and said, "Oh, we gave such and such." And said, "Oh, we gave such and such." And said, "Oh, we gave such and such." And they were lying. They hadn't they were they were lying. They hadn't they were they were lying. They hadn't they were misrepresenting misrepresenting misrepresenting what they had contributed.

what they had contributed. what they had contributed. and they were and they were punished for and they were and they were punished for and they were and they were punished for it. it. it. So, one of the things we return to a lot So, one of the things we return to a lot So, one of the things we return to a lot is um is um is um something AI tools are going to tempt us something AI tools are going to tempt us something AI tools are going to tempt us to to to is is is representing work that's not ours as if representing work that's not ours as if representing work that's not ours as if it's ours. it's ours. it's ours. So, one of the one of the key things I So, one of the one of the key things I So, one of the one of the key things I think about whenever I'm using an AI think about whenever I'm using an AI think about whenever I'm using an AI tool, especially in the course of tool, especially in the course of tool, especially in the course of writing, is what needs to be mine? writing, is what needs to be mine? writing, is what needs to be mine? What needs to be like Rachel Gillson What needs to be like Rachel Gillson What needs to be like Rachel Gillson mine? like in terms of I brainstormed mine? like in terms of I brainstormed mine? like in terms of I brainstormed it, I developed the thinking, I wrote it, I developed the thinking, I wrote it, I developed the thinking, I wrote the words and edited the words and all the words and edited the words and all the words and edited the words and all of this of this of this versus other times like with this versus other times like with this versus other times like with this organizational document that has no organizational document that has no organizational document that has no particular author that's sort of uh particular author that's sort of uh particular author that's sort of uh grouped around these other things. I grouped around these other things. I grouped around these other things. I think okay well that's that's taking a think okay well that's that's taking a think okay well that's that's taking a lot of different perspectives and lot of different perspectives and lot of different perspectives and synthesizing analyzing that's something synthesizing analyzing that's something synthesizing analyzing that's something an AI tool is really good at. But if I'm an AI tool is really good at. But if I'm an AI tool is really good at. But if I'm sitting down and writing my testimony or sitting down and writing my testimony or sitting down and writing my testimony or writing here's my position on if I were writing here's my position on if I were writing here's my position on if I were to write down instead of podcast here's to write down instead of podcast here's to write down instead of podcast here's my position on AI tool use I'd want it my position on AI tool use I'd want it my position on AI tool use I'd want it to be mine. So I think that's that's one to be mine. So I think that's that's one to be mine. So I think that's that's one factor like the integrity factor. And if factor like the integrity factor. And if factor like the integrity factor. And if I do use an AI tool to help me produce I do use an AI tool to help me produce I do use an AI tool to help me produce something, something, something, I like to put on the bottom in a I like to put on the bottom in a I like to put on the bottom in a footnote, footnote, footnote, uh, you know, I used Gemini to help me uh, you know, I used Gemini to help me uh, you know, I used Gemini to help me create this or I used Claude to help me create this or I used Claude to help me create this or I used Claude to help me create this. Even just to introduce create this. Even just to introduce create this. Even just to introduce myself and my little community, hey, if

myself and my little community, hey, if myself and my little community, hey, if we're going to use the tool, let's we're going to use the tool, let's we're going to use the tool, let's actually let's actually say when we're actually let's actually say when we're actually let's actually say when we're using it so that we we don't feel using it so that we we don't feel using it so that we we don't feel weirdly secretive about it. Uh so for weirdly secretive about it. Uh so for weirdly secretive about it. Uh so for example even recently I had an article example even recently I had an article example even recently I had an article that was submitted to a journal. It was that was submitted to a journal. It was that was submitted to a journal. It was accepted and they said oh we need an accepted and they said oh we need an accepted and they said oh we need an abstract. And I thought okay I'll write abstract. And I thought okay I'll write abstract. And I thought okay I'll write an abstract. And then I thought oh I an abstract. And then I thought oh I an abstract. And then I thought oh I wonder if I could put this in an AI tool wonder if I could put this in an AI tool wonder if I could put this in an AI tool and see if it would come up with the and see if it would come up with the and see if it would come up with the abstract because it's really just abstract because it's really just abstract because it's really just summarizing my words. Said oh here's the summarizing my words. Said oh here's the summarizing my words. Said oh here's the paper. paper. paper. Can you give me something that's a Can you give me something that's a Can you give me something that's a couple hundred words? And it spit out couple hundred words? And it spit out couple hundred words? And it spit out something that was fine. and I doctorred something that was fine. and I doctorred something that was fine. and I doctorred it up and I was like, "Actually, this is it up and I was like, "Actually, this is it up and I was like, "Actually, this is pretty good because an abstract it's pretty good because an abstract it's pretty good because an abstract it's just meant to be a couple hundred words just meant to be a couple hundred words just meant to be a couple hundred words right at the front of your thing. It's right at the front of your thing. It's right at the front of your thing. It's not the heart of the argument." I felt not the heart of the argument." I felt not the heart of the argument." I felt okay about that actually cuz I think okay about that actually cuz I think okay about that actually cuz I think that's saving me I put a lot of time and that's saving me I put a lot of time and that's saving me I put a lot of time and energy into writing the article at this energy into writing the article at this energy into writing the article at this stage having a little bit of help just stage having a little bit of help just stage having a little bit of help just to give a a nice snappy summary so to give a a nice snappy summary so to give a a nice snappy summary so someone can scan it and see if they want someone can scan it and see if they want someone can scan it and see if they want to read it or not. I felt pretty good to read it or not. I felt pretty good to read it or not. I felt pretty good about that. I'd also be comfortable if about that. I'd also be comfortable if about that. I'd also be comfortable if other people didn't feel good about that other people didn't feel good about that other people didn't feel good about that because these tools are so new.

because these tools are so new. because these tools are so new. We're each probably going to have We're each probably going to have We're each probably going to have different thresholds of what we think is different thresholds of what we think is different thresholds of what we think is okay and what we think is not okay. And okay and what we think is not okay. And okay and what we think is not okay. And one of the things I'm concerned about is one of the things I'm concerned about is one of the things I'm concerned about is that we just we don't attack each other that we just we don't attack each other that we just we don't attack each other over it. We should be able to have calm over it. We should be able to have calm over it. We should be able to have calm conversations with each other so we can conversations with each other so we can conversations with each other so we can press each other but not kind of just press each other but not kind of just press each other but not kind of just quickly say, "Oh, I can't believe you'd quickly say, "Oh, I can't believe you'd quickly say, "Oh, I can't believe you'd ever do that." Oh, I can't believe you ever do that." Oh, I can't believe you ever do that." Oh, I can't believe you wouldn't do that, etc. And just kind of wouldn't do that, etc. And just kind of wouldn't do that, etc. And just kind of be quick to judge each other. be quick to judge each other. be quick to judge each other. >> I really love this idea of of just >> I really love this idea of of just >> I really love this idea of of just putting in a footnote. I used Gemini or putting in a footnote. I used Gemini or putting in a footnote. I used Gemini or whatever to create this cuz I think it whatever to create this cuz I think it whatever to create this cuz I think it it does it neutralizes the Ananiris and it does it neutralizes the Ananiris and it does it neutralizes the Ananiris and Safh dynamic, doesn't it? That there's Safh dynamic, doesn't it? That there's Safh dynamic, doesn't it? That there's no there's no difference between what no there's no difference between what no there's no difference between what I'm presenting to you and what actually I'm presenting to you and what actually I'm presenting to you and what actually happened. So, it keeps me happened. So, it keeps me happened. So, it keeps me >> exactly >> exactly >> exactly >> honest. Um, one one way that I've tried >> honest. Um, one one way that I've tried >> honest. Um, one one way that I've tried to think about this in the past is if to think about this in the past is if to think about this in the past is if the person for whom this document is the person for whom this document is the person for whom this document is destined knew how it had been created, destined knew how it had been created, destined knew how it had been created, would it change their opinion of it?

would it change their opinion of it? would it change their opinion of it? >> Right? >> Right? >> Right? >> And if it probably would, then that's an >> And if it probably would, then that's an >> And if it probably would, then that's an issue. So if if I'm, you know, to use issue. So if if I'm, you know, to use issue. So if if I'm, you know, to use the extreme example, someone writing a the extreme example, someone writing a the extreme example, someone writing a love letter to their spouse, [laughter] love letter to their spouse, [laughter] love letter to their spouse, [laughter] >> right? that would, you know, if AI had >> right? that would, you know, if AI had >> right? that would, you know, if AI had written that, that would materially written that, that would materially written that, that would materially >> transform the way that that text landed >> transform the way that that text landed >> transform the way that that text landed and therefore that in itself is a huge and therefore that in itself is a huge and therefore that in itself is a huge red flag. I mean, obviously that's an red flag. I mean, obviously that's an red flag. I mean, obviously that's an extreme example and you know people extreme example and you know people extreme example and you know people wouldn't do that but but there's also wouldn't do that but but there's also wouldn't do that but but there's also >> that that's one question that we can ask >> that that's one question that we can ask >> that that's one question that we can ask ourselves. ourselves. ourselves. >> Yeah. I mean obviously sometimes we just >> Yeah. I mean obviously sometimes we just >> Yeah. I mean obviously sometimes we just write in a journal that's just for us write in a journal that's just for us write in a journal that's just for us but so much of our writing is actually but so much of our writing is actually but so much of our writing is actually to bless, help, encourage, strengthen to bless, help, encourage, strengthen to bless, help, encourage, strengthen other people. we're writing for an other people. we're writing for an other people. we're writing for an audience. And so one of the principles audience. And so one of the principles audience. And so one of the principles that has to be a play is how am I loving that has to be a play is how am I loving that has to be a play is how am I loving the people who are going to read this? the people who are going to read this? the people who are going to read this? And I think that integrity is huge And I think that integrity is huge And I think that integrity is huge there. And that's actually a through there. And that's actually a through there. And that's actually a through line that runs through our work. Work is line that runs through our work. Work is line that runs through our work. Work is always for someone even if it's just for always for someone even if it's just for always for someone even if it's just for the Lord, right? There are there are the Lord, right? There are there are the Lord, right? There are there are times when times when times when no one is going to see, no one is going no one is going to see, no one is going no one is going to see, no one is going to know.

So to the extent that AI tools hinder So to the extent that AI tools hinder the ability to love um that would be a the ability to love um that would be a the ability to love um that would be a major red flag, a major stop sign. major red flag, a major stop sign. major red flag, a major stop sign. >> Absolutely. Absolutely it would. We we >> Absolutely. Absolutely it would. We we >> Absolutely. Absolutely it would. We we talk a lot in literary studies at the talk a lot in literary studies at the talk a lot in literary studies at the university about voice and I guess university about voice and I guess university about voice and I guess another question would be is my voice another question would be is my voice another question would be is my voice significant in this? So, if if I'm significant in this? So, if if I'm significant in this? So, if if I'm writing instructions on how to assemble writing instructions on how to assemble writing instructions on how to assemble a table, for example, it doesn't it a table, for example, it doesn't it a table, for example, it doesn't it doesn't matter that much that it's me doesn't matter that much that it's me doesn't matter that much that it's me who's written it. It's who's written it. It's who's written it. It's >> um functional text that helps people do >> um functional text that helps people do >> um functional text that helps people do something. It's I'm not witnessing as something. It's I'm not witnessing as something. It's I'm not witnessing as I'm writing that. And so, you know, if I I'm writing that. And so, you know, if I I'm writing that. And so, you know, if I can use AI to help me can use AI to help me can use AI to help me >> get that clear, then it it it doesn't >> get that clear, then it it it doesn't >> get that clear, then it it it doesn't seem to me that there's a huge problem seem to me that there's a huge problem seem to me that there's a huge problem there. Um, but if I'm, you know, writing there. Um, but if I'm, you know, writing there. Um, but if I'm, you know, writing a a piece of fiction, um, or if if I'm a a piece of fiction, um, or if if I'm a a piece of fiction, um, or if if I'm writing a story as something that writing a story as something that writing a story as something that happened to me, then then my voice is is happened to me, then then my voice is is happened to me, then then my voice is is crucial there. That that is in a sense crucial there. That that is in a sense crucial there. That that is in a sense what the text is about. And not only, what the text is about. And not only, what the text is about. And not only, you know, do I fall foul of the anony you know, do I fall foul of the anony you know, do I fall foul of the anony saf factor when I do that, but I I I rob saf factor when I do that, but I I I rob saf factor when I do that, but I I I rob myself of that, which is in a sense in a myself of that, which is in a sense in a myself of that, which is in a sense in a textual way most mine, which is my textual way most mine, which is my textual way most mine, which is my voice, voice, voice, >> which is especially at play for our >> which is especially at play for our >> which is especially at play for our hypothetical Jesse, like our younger hypothetical Jesse, like our younger hypothetical Jesse, like our younger people who are having AI tools enter people who are having AI tools enter people who are having AI tools enter their journey. Sometimes people are their journey. Sometimes people are their journey. Sometimes people are finding themselves with these really finding themselves with these really finding themselves with these really powerful tools before they've had a powerful tools before they've had a powerful tools before they've had a chance to develop their voice.

chance to develop their voice. chance to develop their voice. >> It's a tragedy. It really is. >> It's a tragedy. It really is. >> It's a tragedy. It really is. >> Yeah, it's it feels. >> Yeah, it's it feels. >> Yeah, it's it feels. And now, of course, okay, I'm trying to And now, of course, okay, I'm trying to And now, of course, okay, I'm trying to speak against my dumerism that comes up speak against my dumerism that comes up speak against my dumerism that comes up easily. Human beings are incredibly easily. Human beings are incredibly easily. Human beings are incredibly creative. We are amazing when we're creative. We are amazing when we're creative. We are amazing when we're given a new tool and we figure it out. given a new tool and we figure it out. given a new tool and we figure it out. I have faith that Gen Z and Gen Alpha I have faith that Gen Z and Gen Alpha I have faith that Gen Z and Gen Alpha and the ones who come behind them will and the ones who come behind them will and the ones who come behind them will encounter all kinds of crazy tools and encounter all kinds of crazy tools and encounter all kinds of crazy tools and as they follow the Lord are empowered by as they follow the Lord are empowered by as they follow the Lord are empowered by his spirit, they will figure out how to his spirit, they will figure out how to his spirit, they will figure out how to use these tools to love God and love use these tools to love God and love use these tools to love God and love their neighbor. So, [snorts] their their neighbor. So, [snorts] their their neighbor. So, [snorts] their development might be really different development might be really different development might be really different than yours and mine. It it certainly than yours and mine. It it certainly than yours and mine. It it certainly will. But I do think how hard we've had will. But I do think how hard we've had will. But I do think how hard we've had to work to find our own voices as to work to find our own voices as to work to find our own voices as writers. you think, "Oh, there was just writers. you think, "Oh, there was just writers. you think, "Oh, there was just so much toil that went into it was so much toil that went into it was so much toil that went into it was really important." And this is really important." And this is really important." And this is especially why I mean, so a technical especially why I mean, so a technical especially why I mean, so a technical writer, you know, like somebody who's writer, you know, like somebody who's writer, you know, like somebody who's doing science, doing science, doing science, uh maybe maybe their voice doesn't uh maybe maybe their voice doesn't uh maybe maybe their voice doesn't matter so much if they're writing up matter so much if they're writing up matter so much if they're writing up various reports. I don't know. I've various reports. I don't know. I've various reports. I don't know. I've never been a scientist, but you think never been a scientist, but you think never been a scientist, but you think especially about things like I think especially about things like I think especially about things like I think about crew missionaries or sort of any about crew missionaries or sort of any about crew missionaries or sort of any minister. when you're writing devotional minister. when you're writing devotional minister. when you're writing devotional material, when you're writing a sermon, material, when you're writing a sermon, material, when you're writing a sermon, when you're preparing a Bible study, when you're preparing a Bible study, when you're preparing a Bible study, that's exactly the kind of place where, that's exactly the kind of place where, that's exactly the kind of place where, like you said, we need to be able to like you said, we need to be able to like you said, we need to be able to express our voice because God loves to express our voice because God loves to express our voice because God loves to work through his people. He loves to work through his people. He loves to work through his people. He loves to work through his people. I mean, he work through his people. I mean, he work through his people. I mean, he could just save everyone in dreams if he could just save everyone in dreams if he could just save everyone in dreams if he wanted to, but there's something about wanted to, but there's something about wanted to, but there's something about the fact that the gospel is meant to be

the fact that the gospel is meant to be the fact that the gospel is meant to be spread person to person that's really spread person to person that's really spread person to person that's really key there. key there. key there. And of course, doing the work, getting And of course, doing the work, getting And of course, doing the work, getting the word inside of us so that it forms the word inside of us so that it forms the word inside of us so that it forms us as we prepare to lead others through us as we prepare to lead others through us as we prepare to lead others through it is so huge. You wouldn't want to give it is so huge. You wouldn't want to give it is so huge. You wouldn't want to give that away to a tool. Absolutely. And I that away to a tool. Absolutely. And I that away to a tool. Absolutely. And I do want to come back to that in a do want to come back to that in a do want to come back to that in a moment. But I just as you're speaking, I moment. But I just as you're speaking, I moment. But I just as you're speaking, I was reflecting on the different voices was reflecting on the different voices was reflecting on the different voices in in the biblical texts. you know, God in in the biblical texts. you know, God in in the biblical texts. you know, God has given us a a book, a series of books has given us a a book, a series of books has given us a a book, a series of books with an incredible range of voices. And, with an incredible range of voices. And, with an incredible range of voices. And, you know, he didn't necessarily have to you know, he didn't necessarily have to you know, he didn't necessarily have to do that. There could have been a do that. There could have been a do that. There could have been a standard way of speaking that that could standard way of speaking that that could standard way of speaking that that could have been used throughout the Bible. And have been used throughout the Bible. And have been used throughout the Bible. And yet, you read one of John's letters and yet, you read one of John's letters and yet, you read one of John's letters and you read Peter and you read Paul and you you read Peter and you read Paul and you you read Peter and you read Paul and you you only need one sentence to know which you only need one sentence to know which you only need one sentence to know which of those you're in. Like, the voice is of those you're in. Like, the voice is of those you're in. Like, the voice is is so is so is so >> different. >> different. >> different. I don't know whether there's an answer I don't know whether there's an answer I don't know whether there's an answer to this, but I I want to ask it anyway. to this, but I I want to ask it anyway. to this, but I I want to ask it anyway. Why do you think God has done that? Why, Why do you think God has done that? Why, Why do you think God has done that? Why, in other words, why is voice so in other words, why is voice so in other words, why is voice so important in the Bible?

important in the Bible? important in the Bible? >> I've never considered this. So, let's >> I've never considered this. So, let's >> I've never considered this. So, let's think out loud a little bit. I do wonder think out loud a little bit. I do wonder think out loud a little bit. I do wonder if it has to do with the apparent if it has to do with the apparent if it has to do with the apparent delight that God has in creating so many delight that God has in creating so many delight that God has in creating so many different people, right? Just the different people, right? Just the different people, right? Just the diversity of humanity seems to please diversity of humanity seems to please diversity of humanity seems to please him that he is the father of all these him that he is the father of all these him that he is the father of all these different nations, all these different different nations, all these different different nations, all these different tribes and peoples, all these different tribes and peoples, all these different tribes and peoples, all these different individuals. And that even in the individuals. And that even in the individuals. And that even in the church, you know, we have this beautiful church, you know, we have this beautiful church, you know, we have this beautiful image of like, hey, not all the body image of like, hey, not all the body image of like, hey, not all the body parts are the same. parts are the same. parts are the same. And the I can't say to the hand, I don't And the I can't say to the hand, I don't And the I can't say to the hand, I don't need you. We're clearly intentionally need you. We're clearly intentionally need you. We're clearly intentionally designed to bring different strengths um designed to bring different strengths um designed to bring different strengths um even different weaknesses even different weaknesses even different weaknesses so that as a body together we love each so that as a body together we love each so that as a body together we love each other. And I think voice must play into other. And I think voice must play into other. And I think voice must play into that. There's going to be that. There's going to be that. There's going to be different ways of saying the same thing different ways of saying the same thing different ways of saying the same thing that it's important to have it in stereo that it's important to have it in stereo that it's important to have it in stereo and not just that one channel. I mean it and not just that one channel. I mean it and not just that one channel. I mean it is beautiful, right? We have four is beautiful, right? We have four is beautiful, right? We have four different gospels. It's a beautiful different gospels. It's a beautiful different gospels. It's a beautiful thing thing thing >> and it's it's so confounding to the to >> and it's it's so confounding to the to >> and it's it's so confounding to the to the modern ideology of sort of universal the modern ideology of sort of universal the modern ideology of sort of universal pure singular discourse as well.

pure singular discourse as well. pure singular discourse as well. >> Yeah. But I think it's one of the the >> Yeah. But I think it's one of the the >> Yeah. But I think it's one of the the beauties of Christianity that it's beauties of Christianity that it's beauties of Christianity that it's always been about well let's get things always been about well let's get things always been about well let's get things in translation. There's there's an in translation. There's there's an in translation. There's there's an obvious difference between um for obvious difference between um for obvious difference between um for example how Islam example how Islam example how Islam the Quran is in Arabic. Anytime you do a the Quran is in Arabic. Anytime you do a the Quran is in Arabic. Anytime you do a translation, it's called an translation, it's called an translation, it's called an interpretation. But when it comes to the interpretation. But when it comes to the interpretation. But when it comes to the Bible, it's like, let's get this Bible, it's like, let's get this Bible, it's like, let's get this [laughter] thing as many languages as we [laughter] thing as many languages as we [laughter] thing as many languages as we possibly can. And they're all valid. You possibly can. And they're all valid. You possibly can. And they're all valid. You know, they're all the I mean, you can do know, they're all the I mean, you can do know, they're all the I mean, you can do worse translation or better translation, worse translation or better translation, worse translation or better translation, but there's there's that impulse to get but there's there's that impulse to get but there's there's that impulse to get it across in multiple ways right at the it across in multiple ways right at the it across in multiple ways right at the heart of our faith. heart of our faith. heart of our faith. >> And I think you're absolutely right. the >> And I think you're absolutely right. the >> And I think you're absolutely right. the the um Lman Sana the the scholar makes the um Lman Sana the the scholar makes the um Lman Sana the the scholar makes the the argument that that there is no the the argument that that there is no the the argument that that there is no sort of sort of sort of base camp untransated Bible in in the base camp untransated Bible in in the base camp untransated Bible in in the sense that it is a multilingual text sense that it is a multilingual text sense that it is a multilingual text itself itself itself >> and Jesus spoke Aramaic and we have his >> and Jesus spoke Aramaic and we have his >> and Jesus spoke Aramaic and we have his words in coin Greek [laughter] words in coin Greek [laughter] words in coin Greek [laughter] >> that's right except for those couple >> that's right except for those couple >> that's right except for those couple right and every time they occur they right and every time they occur they right and every time they occur they occur they're you know oh this is what occur they're you know oh this is what occur they're you know oh this is what that means yeah that means yeah that means yeah >> absolutely >> absolutely >> absolutely Um, let's bring this back to AI.

Um, let's bring this back to AI. Um, let's bring this back to AI. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] So, so I I guess what we're saying is So, so I I guess what we're saying is So, so I I guess what we're saying is that there's and what one thing that that there's and what one thing that that there's and what one thing that that Jesse, you know, would do well to that Jesse, you know, would do well to that Jesse, you know, would do well to to guard in his heart is that AI doesn't to guard in his heart is that AI doesn't to guard in his heart is that AI doesn't do voice authentically and voice is do voice authentically and voice is do voice authentically and voice is incredibly important for society in incredibly important for society in incredibly important for society in general, but all the more important for general, but all the more important for general, but all the more important for Christians. Um and so cultivating his Christians. Um and so cultivating his Christians. Um and so cultivating his voice, developing his voice in writing voice, developing his voice in writing voice, developing his voice in writing is something that that he can be doing is something that that he can be doing is something that that he can be doing that even if AI can imitate it won't be that even if AI can imitate it won't be that even if AI can imitate it won't be able to witness through a voice in the able to witness through a voice in the able to witness through a voice in the same way that that that a human being same way that that that a human being same way that that that a human being can. That's that's really really can. That's that's really really can. That's that's really really helpful. helpful. helpful. >> I I want to slightly shift focus and >> I I want to slightly shift focus and >> I I want to slightly shift focus and come back to something that you come back to something that you come back to something that you mentioned a moment ago. you've you've mentioned a moment ago. you've you've mentioned a moment ago. you've you've done a lot of work on the the cultural done a lot of work on the the cultural done a lot of work on the the cultural narrative that we are our desires that narrative that we are our desires that narrative that we are our desires that they in some sense define as they're the they in some sense define as they're the they in some sense define as they're the core core core >> of who we are and AI is doing something >> of who we are and AI is doing something >> of who we are and AI is doing something is doing a couple of things really is doing a couple of things really is doing a couple of things really really interesting and perhaps quite really interesting and perhaps quite really interesting and perhaps quite disturbing as well with our desires it disturbing as well with our desires it disturbing as well with our desires it the one thing that it's doing is that the one thing that it's doing is that the one thing that it's doing is that it's enabling people to think that they it's enabling people to think that they it's enabling people to think that they are able to fulfill their desires in are able to fulfill their desires in are able to fulfill their desires in deeper and richer ways than before. It I deeper and richer ways than before. It I deeper and richer ways than before. It I can sound articulate and I can look can sound articulate and I can look can sound articulate and I can look organized in ways that were unavailable organized in ways that were unavailable organized in ways that were unavailable to me before. Um, to me before. Um, to me before. Um, how do you read and understand

how do you read and understand how do you read and understand what AI is doing to this narrative that what AI is doing to this narrative that what AI is doing to this narrative that I am my desires and what do you think I am my desires and what do you think I am my desires and what do you think the the effects of that could the the effects of that could the the effects of that could potentially be? It's a good and potentially be? It's a good and potentially be? It's a good and important question and I wonder if it's important question and I wonder if it's important question and I wonder if it's not I wonder if AI tools aren't not I wonder if AI tools aren't not I wonder if AI tools aren't necessarily adding something new but necessarily adding something new but necessarily adding something new but they act as an accelerant to these they act as an accelerant to these they act as an accelerant to these impulses that have been shaping Western impulses that have been shaping Western impulses that have been shaping Western people forever. We have been trained people forever. We have been trained people forever. We have been trained that our authentic life [sighs] that our authentic life [sighs] that our authentic life [sighs] is about getting whatever we want is about getting whatever we want is about getting whatever we want inside. Sometimes that's just crass inside. Sometimes that's just crass inside. Sometimes that's just crass commercialism, right? And so any type of commercialism, right? And so any type of commercialism, right? And so any type of tool that's come along has been trying tool that's come along has been trying tool that's come along has been trying to continue to feed that. Um sometimes to continue to feed that. Um sometimes to continue to feed that. Um sometimes it really feels demonic, right? So we it really feels demonic, right? So we it really feels demonic, right? So we didn't have the internet and then didn't have the internet and then didn't have the internet and then suddenly the internet is available and suddenly the internet is available and suddenly the internet is available and so now I can spend all this time online so now I can spend all this time online so now I can spend all this time online shopping or all this time looking at shopping or all this time looking at shopping or all this time looking at people's lives on social media and people's lives on social media and people's lives on social media and thinking, "Oh, if I had those vacations, thinking, "Oh, if I had those vacations, thinking, "Oh, if I had those vacations, oh, if I had uh a body like that, oh, if oh, if I had uh a body like that, oh, if oh, if I had uh a body like that, oh, if I had that interesting bookshelf that's I had that interesting bookshelf that's I had that interesting bookshelf that's behind Chris, I would be so much more, behind Chris, I would be so much more, behind Chris, I would be so much more, you know, respectable."

you know, respectable." you know, respectable." And so I suspect what AI tools are going And so I suspect what AI tools are going And so I suspect what AI tools are going to do is they're going to give us an to do is they're going to give us an to do is they're going to give us an even more individualized even more individualized even more individualized little tickle, you know, like, oh well, little tickle, you know, like, oh well, little tickle, you know, like, oh well, this tool knows me. It all the this tool knows me. It all the this tool knows me. It all the algorithms know me perfectly, so it's algorithms know me perfectly, so it's algorithms know me perfectly, so it's going to be able to tell me what I going to be able to tell me what I going to be able to tell me what I should buy to be perfect or what I should buy to be perfect or what I should buy to be perfect or what I should do to be perfect. or if I I find should do to be perfect. or if I I find should do to be perfect. or if I I find relating to people really hard, then it relating to people really hard, then it relating to people really hard, then it can be my little, you know, companion or can be my little, you know, companion or can be my little, you know, companion or boyfriend and I won't have to talk to boyfriend and I won't have to talk to boyfriend and I won't have to talk to anyone or do anything like that, it it anyone or do anything like that, it it anyone or do anything like that, it it starts to starts to starts to separate us off. Like it I only need separate us off. Like it I only need separate us off. Like it I only need what my desires are. It starts to kind what my desires are. It starts to kind what my desires are. It starts to kind of mimic that picture of hell that CS of mimic that picture of hell that CS of mimic that picture of hell that CS Lewis had in the great divorce with the Lewis had in the great divorce with the Lewis had in the great divorce with the houses miles and miles and miles away houses miles and miles and miles away houses miles and miles and miles away from each other. from each other. from each other. And that's not the tools And that's not the tools And that's not the tools fault because it was already at play. fault because it was already at play. fault because it was already at play. But the tools can help us chase that But the tools can help us chase that But the tools can help us chase that isolation down into just my own naval isolation down into just my own naval isolation down into just my own naval gazing. That Lewis image I I hadn't gazing. That Lewis image I I hadn't gazing. That Lewis image I I hadn't thought of it in relation to AI before, thought of it in relation to AI before, thought of it in relation to AI before, but that captures something profound, but that captures something profound, but that captures something profound, doesn't it, about what AI is doing to doesn't it, about what AI is doing to doesn't it, about what AI is doing to us. It is enabling us to build houses, us. It is enabling us to build houses, us. It is enabling us to build houses, you know, 10 miles away from each other you know, 10 miles away from each other you know, 10 miles away from each other rather than half a mile. uh as we as we rather than half a mile. uh as we as we rather than half a mile. uh as we as we previously had and you know as as Louis previously had and you know as as Louis previously had and you know as as Louis says that is hell. No, obviously the says that is hell. No, obviously the says that is hell. No, obviously the full biblical definition of hell that

full biblical definition of hell that full biblical definition of hell that there is something hellish about that there is something hellish about that there is something hellish about that >> that we are able to exist in splendid or >> that we are able to exist in splendid or >> that we are able to exist in splendid or or or wretched isolation from each other or or wretched isolation from each other or or wretched isolation from each other having our desires fulfilled in some having our desires fulfilled in some having our desires fulfilled in some sort of recursive loop that doesn't sort of recursive loop that doesn't sort of recursive loop that doesn't require any other human beings. Um require any other human beings. Um require any other human beings. Um there's something infernal there's something infernal there's something infernal >> about that. And and the community aspect >> about that. And and the community aspect >> about that. And and the community aspect is actually a really important aspect of is actually a really important aspect of is actually a really important aspect of most of our work. If we're going to most of our work. If we're going to most of our work. If we're going to think about a labor that either either think about a labor that either either think about a labor that either either paid work or unpaid work, paid work or unpaid work, paid work or unpaid work, it is with and for others. it is with and for others. it is with and for others. All of my work relies on the on faithful All of my work relies on the on faithful All of my work relies on the on faithful work that's gone before me. Both like work that's gone before me. Both like work that's gone before me. Both like like the faithful work of my mother to like the faithful work of my mother to like the faithful work of my mother to feed and raise me uh and the faithful feed and raise me uh and the faithful feed and raise me uh and the faithful work of scholars whose work I've relied work of scholars whose work I've relied work of scholars whose work I've relied on. And of course, my work is designed on. And of course, my work is designed on. And of course, my work is designed to be for others. I need to be thinking to be for others. I need to be thinking to be for others. I need to be thinking about them. about them. about them. And so, to the extent that our that AI And so, to the extent that our that AI And so, to the extent that our that AI tool use can cut us off from people we tool use can cut us off from people we tool use can cut us off from people we should be receiving from or the people should be receiving from or the people should be receiving from or the people we should be serving, it's going to we should be serving, it's going to we should be serving, it's going to impoverish our work. I think people impoverish our work. I think people impoverish our work. I think people already experience this in the work from already experience this in the work from already experience this in the work from home problem when they don't have home problem when they don't have home problem when they don't have community within their work. And AI community within their work. And AI community within their work. And AI tools could probably make that worse as tools could probably make that worse as tools could probably make that worse as well. It's just me with a chatbot all well. It's just me with a chatbot all well. It's just me with a chatbot all day as opposed to collaboration with a day as opposed to collaboration with a day as opposed to collaboration with a real person real person real person who can press back on me in ways that who can press back on me in ways that who can press back on me in ways that chat bots will not. A chatbot will chat bots will not. A chatbot will chat bots will not. A chatbot will always tell you you're amazing and you always tell you you're amazing and you always tell you you're amazing and you just had the best idea that's ever just had the best idea that's ever just had the best idea that's ever happened.

happened. happened. Um it it impoverishes work. Um it it impoverishes work. Um it it impoverishes work. >> Yes. And the only context in which it >> Yes. And the only context in which it >> Yes. And the only context in which it will not tell you you're amazing is if will not tell you you're amazing is if will not tell you you're amazing is if you tell it to tell you that you're not you tell it to tell you that you're not you tell it to tell you that you're not amazing. So you're still in control in amazing. So you're still in control in amazing. So you're still in control in that cont. It's not the same as a human that cont. It's not the same as a human that cont. It's not the same as a human being spontaneously telling you you're being spontaneously telling you you're being spontaneously telling you you're not. In other words, you can engineer not. In other words, you can engineer not. In other words, you can engineer chat bots to be nasty to you, but that's chat bots to be nasty to you, but that's chat bots to be nasty to you, but that's very very different very very different very very different >> to a human being criticizing you. >> to a human being criticizing you. >> to a human being criticizing you. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> Absolutely. >> And there is, isn't there? So we're >> And there is, isn't there? So we're >> And there is, isn't there? So we're talking about the the way in which AI talking about the the way in which AI talking about the the way in which AI isolates people. There is a dirty secret isolates people. There is a dirty secret isolates people. There is a dirty secret to the air industry behind this, which to the air industry behind this, which to the air industry behind this, which it is is that it is a hugely it is is that it is a hugely it is is that it is a hugely collaborative enterprise. So for you to collaborative enterprise. So for you to collaborative enterprise. So for you to be able to be isolated by AI, hundreds be able to be isolated by AI, hundreds be able to be isolated by AI, hundreds of thousands perhaps of people have had of thousands perhaps of people have had of thousands perhaps of people have had to clean the data that was used to train to clean the data that was used to train to clean the data that was used to train the AI and were paid very very little the AI and were paid very very little the AI and were paid very very little for that labor. And so the isolation is for that labor. And so the isolation is for that labor. And so the isolation is itself a fantasy. You're you're sitting itself a fantasy. You're you're sitting itself a fantasy. You're you're sitting on the shoulders of the people who were on the shoulders of the people who were on the shoulders of the people who were paid cents an hour to look at repulsive paid cents an hour to look at repulsive paid cents an hour to look at repulsive pictures telling the AI that they're not pictures telling the AI that they're not pictures telling the AI that they're not good in order to be isolated. And we're good in order to be isolated. And we're good in order to be isolated. And we're going to go into that much more detail going to go into that much more detail going to go into that much more detail in another episode. So I I won't sort of in another episode. So I I won't sort of in another episode. So I I won't sort of labor that now. But but it's important labor that now. But but it's important labor that now. But but it's important to realize that our experience of large to realize that our experience of large to realize that our experience of large language models as users is the tip of language models as users is the tip of language models as users is the tip of an iceberg of an industry an iceberg of an industry an iceberg of an industry >> that that is often actively kept from us >> that that is often actively kept from us >> that that is often actively kept from us that that we there's an interest of that that we there's an interest of that that we there's an interest of these companies of us not realizing the these companies of us not realizing the these companies of us not realizing the bigger picture.

bigger picture. bigger picture. >> And of course the companies want to >> And of course the companies want to >> And of course the companies want to position themselves. position themselves. position themselves. there's a frenzy about this is going to there's a frenzy about this is going to there's a frenzy about this is going to change work forever. Everyone's going to change work forever. Everyone's going to change work forever. Everyone's going to lose jobs because they need to prove to lose jobs because they need to prove to lose jobs because they need to prove to their investors they're going to make their investors they're going to make their investors they're going to make money. When you actually look at the money. When you actually look at the money. When you actually look at the tools, there's not very much they can do tools, there's not very much they can do tools, there's not very much they can do yet. They they're great for certain yet. They they're great for certain yet. They they're great for certain specific things, but they can't even do specific things, but they can't even do specific things, but they can't even do them on their own yet. But if you listen them on their own yet. But if you listen them on their own yet. But if you listen to the discourse, to the discourse, to the discourse, the CEOs are invested in stoking that the CEOs are invested in stoking that the CEOs are invested in stoking that kind of panic because they want their kind of panic because they want their kind of panic because they want their technology to be seen as world changing, technology to be seen as world changing, technology to be seen as world changing, right? And so that's creating some panic right? And so that's creating some panic right? And so that's creating some panic for people about their jobs. Ah, should for people about their jobs. Ah, should for people about their jobs. Ah, should I make my kid be an electrician instead I make my kid be an electrician instead I make my kid be an electrician instead of going into the arts so that she'll of going into the arts so that she'll of going into the arts so that she'll get a job someday? And we need to get a job someday? And we need to get a job someday? And we need to remember remember remember this tool use. They are incredible. They this tool use. They are incredible. They this tool use. They are incredible. They can do some really cool things. But can do some really cool things. But can do some really cool things. But it's not as dramatic as we think. We get it's not as dramatic as we think. We get it's not as dramatic as we think. We get to keep our heads on. we can explore the to keep our heads on. we can explore the to keep our heads on. we can explore the tools but also continue to do [gasps] tools but also continue to do [gasps] tools but also continue to do [gasps] continue to approach our work and continue to approach our work and continue to approach our work and helping others think about work with helping others think about work with helping others think about work with standard Christian wisdom as in God has standard Christian wisdom as in God has standard Christian wisdom as in God has made us to be workers. So even if tools made us to be workers. So even if tools made us to be workers. So even if tools change the landscape, that's not going change the landscape, that's not going change the landscape, that's not going to change the fact that we are to change the fact that we are to change the fact that we are fundamentally made fundamentally made fundamentally made to till and to keep to to love our to till and to keep to to love our to till and to keep to to love our neighbor, to produce good things, to neighbor, to produce good things, to neighbor, to produce good things, to fight back evil and darkness, that fight back evil and darkness, that fight back evil and darkness, that that's always going to be there, no that's always going to be there, no that's always going to be there, no matter what the tool landscape is. And matter what the tool landscape is. And matter what the tool landscape is. And um for Christians, no matter what

um for Christians, no matter what um for Christians, no matter what context we find ourselves in, it's context we find ourselves in, it's context we find ourselves in, it's always going to be an opportunity to always going to be an opportunity to always going to be an opportunity to share the gospel, to love even our share the gospel, to love even our share the gospel, to love even our enemy. Uh so we can sometimes get so enemy. Uh so we can sometimes get so enemy. Uh so we can sometimes get so overwhelmed about what's going to happen overwhelmed about what's going to happen overwhelmed about what's going to happen and there could be very potentially and there could be very potentially and there could be very potentially frightening things but there's so much frightening things but there's so much frightening things but there's so much about our basic vocation as persons that about our basic vocation as persons that about our basic vocation as persons that no set of tools can change no set of tools can change no set of tools can change because they come from God. They're a because they come from God. They're a because they come from God. They're a gift to us. Amen. Amen. [gasps] gift to us. Amen. Amen. [gasps] gift to us. Amen. Amen. [gasps] And in relation to that, And in relation to that, And in relation to that, do you think that there's a danger that do you think that there's a danger that do you think that there's a danger that that AI is quietly that AI is quietly that AI is quietly robbing us of the privilege of carrying robbing us of the privilege of carrying robbing us of the privilege of carrying out some of that? And I don't know if out some of that? And I don't know if out some of that? And I don't know if this is too doomongering on my part. So this is too doomongering on my part. So this is too doomongering on my part. So you you have this wonderful phrase that you you have this wonderful phrase that you you have this wonderful phrase that resonates in your writing. You talk resonates in your writing. You talk resonates in your writing. You talk about the muscle of Christian obedience about the muscle of Christian obedience about the muscle of Christian obedience that it's the hard things that we do, that it's the hard things that we do, that it's the hard things that we do, you know, when we we don't just follow you know, when we we don't just follow you know, when we we don't just follow the narrative, I am my desires, for the narrative, I am my desires, for the narrative, I am my desires, for example, that build Yeah. character and example, that build Yeah. character and example, that build Yeah. character and resilience and godliness in us. And one resilience and godliness in us. And one resilience and godliness in us. And one of the the big things that's being of the the big things that's being of the the big things that's being pushed about AI is is that it reduces pushed about AI is is that it reduces pushed about AI is is that it reduces the hard things, you know, it reduces the hard things, you know, it reduces the hard things, you know, it reduces friction in our lives. It does all the friction in our lives. It does all the friction in our lives. It does all the dirty work so that you know we can focus dirty work so that you know we can focus dirty work so that you know we can focus on other things. And what do [laughter] on other things. And what do [laughter] on other things. And what do [laughter] you what do you think that fantasy of AI you what do you think that fantasy of AI you what do you think that fantasy of AI doing all the things for me that I don't

doing all the things for me that I don't doing all the things for me that I don't like is doing to us? like is doing to us? like is doing to us? >> Well, and it's silly too because it's >> Well, and it's silly too because it's >> Well, and it's silly too because it's the same playbook that was uh spoken the same playbook that was uh spoken the same playbook that was uh spoken over email that oh once we get email over email that oh once we get email over email that oh once we get email we're going to have so much time to do we're going to have so much time to do we're going to have so much time to do this beautiful creative work. Do you this beautiful creative work. Do you this beautiful creative work. Do you know what happened when we got email? know what happened when we got email? know what happened when we got email? Now we're just covered in email. People Now we're just covered in email. People Now we're just covered in email. People said, "Oh, once we have video meetings, said, "Oh, once we have video meetings, said, "Oh, once we have video meetings, imagine the time that we'll be saved. We imagine the time that we'll be saved. We imagine the time that we'll be saved. We won't have to walk down the hall. We won't have to walk down the hall. We won't have to walk down the hall. We won't have to go to these different won't have to go to these different won't have to go to these different countries." Um, there's actually a lot countries." Um, there's actually a lot countries." Um, there's actually a lot that's extremely convenient about video that's extremely convenient about video that's extremely convenient about video conferencing. [gasps] conferencing. [gasps] conferencing. [gasps] But now, many of us are covered in video But now, many of us are covered in video But now, many of us are covered in video meetings. We have to critically examine meetings. We have to critically examine meetings. We have to critically examine promises that have made about other promises that have made about other promises that have made about other recent tech and see that they've never recent tech and see that they've never recent tech and see that they've never panned out. So, as much as AI tools want panned out. So, as much as AI tools want panned out. So, as much as AI tools want to sell us this sweetness about, oh, to sell us this sweetness about, oh, to sell us this sweetness about, oh, you're going to have so much time, you're going to have so much time, you're going to have so much time, probably it just means your employers probably it just means your employers probably it just means your employers are going to try to squeeze even more are going to try to squeeze even more are going to try to squeeze even more work out of you, even more product work out of you, even more product work out of you, even more product because that's how they've worked in the because that's how they've worked in the because that's how they've worked in the past. [sighs] past. [sighs] past. [sighs] So, I So, I So, I I don't believe the song that we're I don't believe the song that we're I don't believe the song that we're going to be saved all this time. The going to be saved all this time. The going to be saved all this time. The other trouble, of course, is that many other trouble, of course, is that many other trouble, of course, is that many of us, even when we find ourselves with of us, even when we find ourselves with of us, even when we find ourselves with time, don't tend to use the time that time, don't tend to use the time that time, don't tend to use the time that profitably if we're left to the flesh, profitably if we're left to the flesh, profitably if we're left to the flesh, right? Um, many of us struggle with, right? Um, many of us struggle with, right? Um, many of us struggle with, "Oh, I've got 30 extra minutes and "Oh, I've got 30 extra minutes and "Oh, I've got 30 extra minutes and suddenly I find I'm scrolling ridiculous suddenly I find I'm scrolling ridiculous suddenly I find I'm scrolling ridiculous news I don't even care about. I'm news I don't even care about. I'm news I don't even care about. I'm reading about Hungarian soccer leagues,

reading about Hungarian soccer leagues, reading about Hungarian soccer leagues, you know, or some random thing." You you know, or some random thing." You you know, or some random thing." You think even even if AI tools become this think even even if AI tools become this think even even if AI tools become this thing that save us all this time and thing that save us all this time and thing that save us all this time and work, we actually have to become people work, we actually have to become people work, we actually have to become people who are formed to use time. Well, this who are formed to use time. Well, this who are formed to use time. Well, this is part of why this scripture warns us is part of why this scripture warns us is part of why this scripture warns us like redeem the time. Why does scripture like redeem the time. Why does scripture like redeem the time. Why does scripture have to say that to us? Because we are have to say that to us? Because we are have to say that to us? Because we are foolish, sinful people who will spend foolish, sinful people who will spend foolish, sinful people who will spend our time on silly things, sometimes evil our time on silly things, sometimes evil our time on silly things, sometimes evil things, right? So, anytime a tool makes things, right? So, anytime a tool makes things, right? So, anytime a tool makes us these promises, I have to go back to us these promises, I have to go back to us these promises, I have to go back to my community and think what how do we my community and think what how do we my community and think what how do we actually be people who use our time actually be people who use our time actually be people who use our time well, that's going to be a gift that well, that's going to be a gift that well, that's going to be a gift that comes from God's spirit and God's word comes from God's spirit and God's word comes from God's spirit and God's word and God's people forming us, not from a and God's people forming us, not from a and God's people forming us, not from a tool. That's really, really helpful. And tool. That's really, really helpful. And tool. That's really, really helpful. And I I I just want to keep thinking about I I I just want to keep thinking about I I I just want to keep thinking about this idea of of work and the different this idea of of work and the different this idea of of work and the different sorts of work we do and the way in which sorts of work we do and the way in which sorts of work we do and the way in which those different sorts of work shape us those different sorts of work shape us those different sorts of work shape us as people for a moment. the the as people for a moment. the the as people for a moment. the the philosopher Hannah Arand has this um philosopher Hannah Arand has this um philosopher Hannah Arand has this um very sort of famous and and often used very sort of famous and and often used very sort of famous and and often used distinction in her writing between labor distinction in her writing between labor distinction in her writing between labor and work and she basically says that and work and she basically says that and work and she basically says that labor is the repetitive things like you labor is the repetitive things like you labor is the repetitive things like you know making a bed every morning or know making a bed every morning or know making a bed every morning or washing the dishes that don't leave a washing the dishes that don't leave a washing the dishes that don't leave a direct mark on the world but just need direct mark on the world but just need direct mark on the world but just need redoing again and again and work is more redoing again and again and work is more redoing again and again and work is more something like painting a picture or something like painting a picture or something like painting a picture or writing a book that that does leave that writing a book that that does leave that writing a book that that does leave that direct mark on the world and the the

direct mark on the world and the the direct mark on the world and the the discourse from the AI companies is AI is discourse from the AI companies is AI is discourse from the AI companies is AI is going to take the labor away so that you going to take the labor away so that you going to take the labor away so that you can focus on the work so that you can do can focus on the work so that you can do can focus on the work so that you can do the the high value high leverage jobs the the high value high leverage jobs the the high value high leverage jobs and one critique of AI is that it's it's and one critique of AI is that it's it's and one critique of AI is that it's it's actually the opposite. AI is writing the actually the opposite. AI is writing the actually the opposite. AI is writing the poetry for me but I still have to wash poetry for me but I still have to wash poetry for me but I still have to wash the dishes. the dishes. the dishes. >> Um but I want to ask a question slightly >> Um but I want to ask a question slightly >> Um but I want to ask a question slightly differently. differently. differently. Do you buy that distinction and that Do you buy that distinction and that Do you buy that distinction and that hierarchy to begin with? Um because it hierarchy to begin with? Um because it hierarchy to begin with? Um because it seems to me that that there's there's an seems to me that that there's there's an seems to me that that there's there's an ideology of what washing the dishes is ideology of what washing the dishes is ideology of what washing the dishes is doing for us embedded into that. doing for us embedded into that. doing for us embedded into that. >> And and what what do you think of this >> And and what what do you think of this >> And and what what do you think of this narrative that AI frees us from busy narrative that AI frees us from busy narrative that AI frees us from busy work so that we can focus on the quote work so that we can focus on the quote work so that we can focus on the quote unquote higher things? unquote higher things? unquote higher things? >> Yeah, there's a lot that's just smuggled >> Yeah, there's a lot that's just smuggled >> Yeah, there's a lot that's just smuggled in even in the statement, right? We it in even in the statement, right? We it in even in the statement, right? We it can feel there's parts of it that can feel there's parts of it that can feel there's parts of it that absolutely resonate because we can feel absolutely resonate because we can feel absolutely resonate because we can feel the difference between the difference between the difference between when you have an infinite home and when you have an infinite home and when you have an infinite home and you're like I have changed so many you're like I have changed so many you're like I have changed so many diapers today and this is not diapers today and this is not diapers today and this is not necessarily it doesn't feel emotionally necessarily it doesn't feel emotionally necessarily it doesn't feel emotionally enriching at this point enriching at this point enriching at this point versus when I am deep in a text and versus when I am deep in a text and versus when I am deep in a text and feeling just vibrantly alive with the feeling just vibrantly alive with the feeling just vibrantly alive with the ideas that I'm encountering.

ideas that I'm encountering. ideas that I'm encountering. Uh but I become immediately suspicious Uh but I become immediately suspicious Uh but I become immediately suspicious because because because again again again anything that contributes anything that contributes anything that contributes to the to the to the well-being of others well-being of others well-being of others automatically has a dignity. automatically has a dignity. automatically has a dignity. So So So changing a diaper for the 12th time in a changing a diaper for the 12th time in a changing a diaper for the 12th time in a day might not be very emotionally day might not be very emotionally day might not be very emotionally stimulating. stimulating. stimulating. Well, maybe it's emotionally as it Well, maybe it's emotionally as it Well, maybe it's emotionally as it depends on how you feel intellectually depends on how you feel intellectually depends on how you feel intellectually stimulating. stimulating. stimulating. But But But the act of service I'm performing for my the act of service I'm performing for my the act of service I'm performing for my daughter and the way it's it's an daughter and the way it's it's an daughter and the way it's it's an opportunity for me to remember what is opportunity for me to remember what is opportunity for me to remember what is actually important is loving my neighbor actually important is loving my neighbor actually important is loving my neighbor because I can make a total idol out of because I can make a total idol out of because I can make a total idol out of intellectual work. Ooh, it's so fancy. intellectual work. Ooh, it's so fancy. intellectual work. Ooh, it's so fancy. Oh, I'm so interesting because I do Oh, I'm so interesting because I do Oh, I'm so interesting because I do these various things, etc., etc. that I these various things, etc., etc. that I these various things, etc., etc. that I sometimes need the reminder and the sometimes need the reminder and the sometimes need the reminder and the rebuke of the small, the quiet, the rebuke of the small, the quiet, the rebuke of the small, the quiet, the repetitive that just serves my family.

repetitive that just serves my family. repetitive that just serves my family. It just serves the people that I have It just serves the people that I have It just serves the people that I have over. This is why I actually appreciate over. This is why I actually appreciate over. This is why I actually appreciate um Oliver O'Donovan has a chapter on um Oliver O'Donovan has a chapter on um Oliver O'Donovan has a chapter on work in his third volume in the ethics work in his third volume in the ethics work in his third volume in the ethics as theology series where he talks about as theology series where he talks about as theology series where he talks about the various different aspects of work. the various different aspects of work. the various different aspects of work. And I think it I like it better uh than And I think it I like it better uh than And I think it I like it better uh than just labor and work. You he talks about just labor and work. You he talks about just labor and work. You he talks about every aspect of work has material, has every aspect of work has material, has every aspect of work has material, has social and has the possibility of the social and has the possibility of the social and has the possibility of the personal. personal. personal. And I think that's helpful because And I think that's helpful because And I think that's helpful because drudgery can show up in any of them drudgery can show up in any of them drudgery can show up in any of them because of the fall, because of the fall, because of the fall, but all of them still have access to but all of them still have access to but all of them still have access to the good and the true and the beautiful. the good and the true and the beautiful. the good and the true and the beautiful. And so when the curse came in And so when the curse came in And so when the curse came in in Genesis 3, work was cursed. Right? So in Genesis 3, work was cursed. Right? So in Genesis 3, work was cursed. Right? So I don't deal with thorns and thistles, I don't deal with thorns and thistles, I don't deal with thorns and thistles, but I do deal with meetings and emails. but I do deal with meetings and emails. but I do deal with meetings and emails. Right? There are always going to be Right? There are always going to be Right? There are always going to be aspects to labor [gasps] aspects to labor [gasps] aspects to labor [gasps] that are difficult.

that are difficult. that are difficult. But the task is becoming people who can But the task is becoming people who can But the task is becoming people who can identify uh when are the difficult identify uh when are the difficult identify uh when are the difficult things the right difficulty. It is things the right difficulty. It is things the right difficulty. It is difficult to care for a small child and difficult to care for a small child and difficult to care for a small child and it's unpaid. Well, I mean, I guess it's unpaid. Well, I mean, I guess it's unpaid. Well, I mean, I guess unless you work in child care, [gasps] unless you work in child care, [gasps] unless you work in child care, [gasps] but the way that it but the way that it but the way that it forms us and affirms this is good. The forms us and affirms this is good. The forms us and affirms this is good. The care for each other is good. care for each other is good. care for each other is good. I wouldn't want to farm all of that out I wouldn't want to farm all of that out I wouldn't want to farm all of that out to an AI tool. Now, part of part of what to an AI tool. Now, part of part of what to an AI tool. Now, part of part of what we haven't talked about yet is that we haven't talked about yet is that we haven't talked about yet is that sometimes when people do when when sometimes when people do when when sometimes when people do when when people are very anti- AI tools, people are very anti- AI tools, people are very anti- AI tools, they want to romanticize the past. You they want to romanticize the past. You they want to romanticize the past. You know, oh, when we were just all like know, oh, when we were just all like know, oh, when we were just all like peaceful Jeffersonian farmers under our peaceful Jeffersonian farmers under our peaceful Jeffersonian farmers under our own vines and fig trees, own vines and fig trees, own vines and fig trees, and they forget that a lot of tools and they forget that a lot of tools and they forget that a lot of tools before AI tools, a lot of the tools that before AI tools, a lot of the tools that before AI tools, a lot of the tools that have become so prominent in our domestic have become so prominent in our domestic have become so prominent in our domestic life have really helped women. I, for life have really helped women. I, for life have really helped women. I, for one, one, one, do not know how to do not know how to do not know how to raise, dress, and cook a chicken from raise, dress, and cook a chicken from raise, dress, and cook a chicken from scratch. I'm sure plenty of my ancestors scratch. I'm sure plenty of my ancestors scratch. I'm sure plenty of my ancestors did. I'm sure plenty of my the women did. I'm sure plenty of my the women did. I'm sure plenty of my the women behind me would probably stare open behind me would probably stare open behind me would probably stare open mouth, disappointed at me that I didn't mouth, disappointed at me that I didn't mouth, disappointed at me that I didn't know how to do that.

know how to do that. know how to do that. But I have all kinds of I live in a But I have all kinds of I live in a But I have all kinds of I live in a whole system where um I don't need to whole system where um I don't need to whole system where um I don't need to know how to do that. And it has actually know how to do that. And it has actually know how to do that. And it has actually opened me up to do opened me up to do opened me up to do well work that I find much more well work that I find much more well work that I find much more fulfilling. May maybe I have lost access fulfilling. May maybe I have lost access fulfilling. May maybe I have lost access to a real love of chicken butchery that to a real love of chicken butchery that to a real love of chicken butchery that I would have had I would have had I would have had otherwise. otherwise. otherwise. But I feel so thankful especially as a But I feel so thankful especially as a But I feel so thankful especially as a female to live in this time where female to live in this time where female to live in this time where actually I do have access to work that actually I do have access to work that actually I do have access to work that sometimes was only offered to my sometimes was only offered to my sometimes was only offered to my brothers. So, I never want to just poo brothers. So, I never want to just poo brothers. So, I never want to just poo tools full scale. Like, actually, they tools full scale. Like, actually, they tools full scale. Like, actually, they can free us from things, but let's just can free us from things, but let's just can free us from things, but let's just be realistic about it. Can a Roomba be realistic about it. Can a Roomba be realistic about it. Can a Roomba actually vacuum your house? Well, no. It actually vacuum your house? Well, no. It actually vacuum your house? Well, no. It can do some of it, but you're still can do some of it, but you're still can do some of it, but you're still going to go around and pick up if you going to go around and pick up if you going to go around and pick up if you have someone over for the first time. have someone over for the first time. have someone over for the first time. Um, Um, Um, so we've just we've got to carefully so we've just we've got to carefully so we've just we've got to carefully look at, hey, if something really just look at, hey, if something really just look at, hey, if something really just is a pain and I don't think it's is a pain and I don't think it's is a pain and I don't think it's developmentally important for me or it's developmentally important for me or it's developmentally important for me or it's not extremely useful for other people, not extremely useful for other people, not extremely useful for other people, that that social aspect, if it's not that that social aspect, if it's not that that social aspect, if it's not calling something out of me or forming calling something out of me or forming calling something out of me or forming me and I could figure out a way a tool me and I could figure out a way a tool me and I could figure out a way a tool can help relieve some of that, can help relieve some of that, can help relieve some of that, perhaps that's a green light. Perhaps I perhaps that's a green light. Perhaps I perhaps that's a green light. Perhaps I should explore it. But to any extent should explore it. But to any extent should explore it. But to any extent that my work has meaningful contact with that my work has meaningful contact with that my work has meaningful contact with the material, meaningful contact with the material, meaningful contact with the material, meaningful contact with other people, my community, meaningful other people, my community, meaningful other people, my community, meaningful ways that God is shaping me, who he

ways that God is shaping me, who he ways that God is shaping me, who he wants me to be, wants me to be, wants me to be, that I need to be careful about what that I need to be careful about what that I need to be careful about what tools I enter in there. It's like the tools I enter in there. It's like the tools I enter in there. It's like the word processor. word processor. word processor. It's a lot nicer than a typewriter as I It's a lot nicer than a typewriter as I It's a lot nicer than a typewriter as I think about my v my vocation of writing. think about my v my vocation of writing. think about my v my vocation of writing. Fine. I'm not I'm not worried about Fine. I'm not I'm not worried about Fine. I'm not I'm not worried about that. that. that. But again to go back to writing and But again to go back to writing and But again to go back to writing and work, do I want chat to think about all work, do I want chat to think about all work, do I want chat to think about all my ideas? Like, oh, I want to I want to my ideas? Like, oh, I want to I want to my ideas? Like, oh, I want to I want to submit at an academic conference. Hey submit at an academic conference. Hey submit at an academic conference. Hey chat, given what you know about me, what chat, given what you know about me, what chat, given what you know about me, what are some proposals I should do? are some proposals I should do? are some proposals I should do? I guess I could do that, but I guess I could do that, but I guess I could do that, but there's something important about me as there's something important about me as there's something important about me as a scholar that should sit and think, a scholar that should sit and think, a scholar that should sit and think, well, what questions have I encountered well, what questions have I encountered well, what questions have I encountered that I find fascinating? Voice again. that I find fascinating? Voice again. that I find fascinating? Voice again. Shouldn't that be what I bring out? Shouldn't that be what I bring out? Shouldn't that be what I bring out? There's so many different things to There's so many different things to There's so many different things to think about and each of our work is so think about and each of our work is so think about and each of our work is so different. This is why we're going to different. This is why we're going to different. This is why we're going to need communities of people where we can need communities of people where we can need communities of people where we can talk without judging each other. What do talk without judging each other. What do talk without judging each other. What do we think given my work, given your work, we think given my work, given your work, we think given my work, given your work, how should we approach these things? And how should we approach these things? And how should we approach these things? And it's also isn't it about not only what it's also isn't it about not only what it's also isn't it about not only what content am I going to produce for this content am I going to produce for this content am I going to produce for this conference but how is the process of conference but how is the process of conference but how is the process of producing it going to change me so that producing it going to change me so that producing it going to change me so that in the future I think a little in the future I think a little in the future I think a little differently and perhaps am a little differently and perhaps am a little differently and perhaps am a little wiser wiser wiser it in doing everything in the future it in doing everything in the future it in doing everything in the future than I would necessarily have been. So than I would necessarily have been. So than I would necessarily have been. So it's this work in us that we sometimes it's this work in us that we sometimes it's this work in us that we sometimes sacrifice to the work through us. Yeah, sacrifice to the work through us. Yeah, sacrifice to the work through us. Yeah, I I can give you the content, but I have I I can give you the content, but I have I I can give you the content, but I have not been changed

not been changed not been changed >> and shaped as I would have been had I >> and shaped as I would have been had I >> and shaped as I would have been had I gone through the labor of doing it gone through the labor of doing it gone through the labor of doing it myself. myself. myself. >> I I want to focus >> I I want to focus >> I I want to focus um squarely um squarely um squarely on on on um biblical texts for a moment. We you um biblical texts for a moment. We you um biblical texts for a moment. We you you've introduced this you've introduced this you've introduced this fascinating lens of Ananas and Safari, fascinating lens of Ananas and Safari, fascinating lens of Ananas and Safari, which which I I'm going to think a lot which which I I'm going to think a lot which which I I'm going to think a lot more about over the coming days. I I more about over the coming days. I I more about over the coming days. I I think that's a a really incisive passage think that's a a really incisive passage think that's a a really incisive passage for understanding how we relate to AI. for understanding how we relate to AI. for understanding how we relate to AI. Are there any other biblical passages or Are there any other biblical passages or Are there any other biblical passages or verses that have been particularly verses that have been particularly verses that have been particularly helpful to you in navigating the the AI helpful to you in navigating the the AI helpful to you in navigating the the AI landscape? landscape? landscape? >> Yeah, there are two others that I return >> Yeah, there are two others that I return >> Yeah, there are two others that I return to again and again as I think about to again and again as I think about to again and again as I think about this. this. this. One is are lines that happen at the end One is are lines that happen at the end One is are lines that happen at the end of second John and third John where he of second John and third John where he of second John and third John where he says says says I have so much more to say to you but I I have so much more to say to you but I I have so much more to say to you but I don't want to write it. I want to say it don't want to write it. I want to say it don't want to write it. I want to say it face to face.

face to face. face to face. Now you think about what writing is for Now you think about what writing is for Now you think about what writing is for the New Testament. Uh we wouldn't have the New Testament. Uh we wouldn't have the New Testament. Uh we wouldn't have the New Testament if it wasn't for the New Testament if it wasn't for the New Testament if it wasn't for writing and so many jewels, treasures writing and so many jewels, treasures writing and so many jewels, treasures that convict us and reassure us and that convict us and reassure us and that convict us and reassure us and comfort us and spur us on comfort us and spur us on comfort us and spur us on are letters. You know, these men took are letters. You know, these men took are letters. You know, these men took the time empowered by the spirit to the time empowered by the spirit to the time empowered by the spirit to write how beautiful. And yet still write how beautiful. And yet still write how beautiful. And yet still embedded in these little letters from embedded in these little letters from embedded in these little letters from John. John. John. There's just something that tech can't There's just something that tech can't There's just something that tech can't replace that communal replace that communal replace that communal sharing sharing sharing of a message of stories of comfort of of a message of stories of comfort of of a message of stories of comfort of sorrow. sorrow. sorrow. [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] [sighs and gasps] I love writing as a tool. Very happy I love writing as a tool. Very happy I love writing as a tool. Very happy about it. I know we're not oral cultures about it. I know we're not oral cultures about it. I know we're not oral cultures anymore. I'm sure that's a huge loss. anymore. I'm sure that's a huge loss. anymore. I'm sure that's a huge loss. But that scripture reminds me that even But that scripture reminds me that even But that scripture reminds me that even embedded in the most important important embedded in the most important important embedded in the most important important writing we have is this reminder writing we have is this reminder writing we have is this reminder there's something that can't be replaced there's something that can't be replaced there's something that can't be replaced about human community and sharing about human community and sharing about human community and sharing together.

together. together. The other text that I think about a lot The other text that I think about a lot The other text that I think about a lot is chapter 28 of Job. It's a beautiful is chapter 28 of Job. It's a beautiful is chapter 28 of Job. It's a beautiful poetic reflection poetic reflection poetic reflection on man's technological skill. man in the on man's technological skill. man in the on man's technological skill. man in the old sense of the word. You know, old sense of the word. You know, old sense of the word. You know, humanity's ability to go deep underneath humanity's ability to go deep underneath humanity's ability to go deep underneath the mountains and mine and work and the mountains and mine and work and the mountains and mine and work and scratch. The other animals can't see it. scratch. The other animals can't see it. scratch. The other animals can't see it. They don't know it. They don't have They don't know it. They don't have They don't know it. They don't have these abilities. We can pull treasures these abilities. We can pull treasures these abilities. We can pull treasures from the depths of the earth. You know, from the depths of the earth. You know, from the depths of the earth. You know, I'm picturing like the minds of Moria or I'm picturing like the minds of Moria or I'm picturing like the minds of Moria or something from Lord of the Rings. something from Lord of the Rings. something from Lord of the Rings. But then it asks at the end, but where But then it asks at the end, but where But then it asks at the end, but where is wisdom found? Uh, [sighs] is wisdom found? Uh, [sighs] is wisdom found? Uh, [sighs] can you find the fear of the Lord down can you find the fear of the Lord down can you find the fear of the Lord down there with all of your technical there with all of your technical there with all of your technical brilliance? brilliance? brilliance? It says like no, like this this wisdom, It says like no, like this this wisdom, It says like no, like this this wisdom, fearing the Lord and obeying him that fearing the Lord and obeying him that fearing the Lord and obeying him that comes from him. No matter how fancy we comes from him. No matter how fancy we comes from him. No matter how fancy we are with our tools, no matter what we are with our tools, no matter what we are with our tools, no matter what we can produce. can produce. can produce. And it continues to remind me uh God has And it continues to remind me uh God has And it continues to remind me uh God has made us insanely creative.

made us insanely creative. made us insanely creative. We will continue to produce tools that We will continue to produce tools that We will continue to produce tools that can do can do can do just incredible things. And to the just incredible things. And to the just incredible things. And to the extent that we use them to glorify him, extent that we use them to glorify him, extent that we use them to glorify him, there will be something worth standing there will be something worth standing there will be something worth standing in front of him to say like, uh, here's in front of him to say like, uh, here's in front of him to say like, uh, here's how I used your talents that you've how I used your talents that you've how I used your talents that you've given me. But at the end of the day, given me. But at the end of the day, given me. But at the end of the day, none of these fancy tools can replace none of these fancy tools can replace none of these fancy tools can replace the fact that the fact that the fact that we need to be formed by the fear of God, we need to be formed by the fear of God, we need to be formed by the fear of God, that reverence for him, that love for that reverence for him, that love for that reverence for him, that love for him. We need to be formed by the wisdom him. We need to be formed by the wisdom him. We need to be formed by the wisdom that understands the difference between that understands the difference between that understands the difference between technical competency and a life technical competency and a life technical competency and a life of repentance and faith. of repentance and faith. of repentance and faith. So I don't want to be I don't want us to So I don't want to be I don't want us to So I don't want to be I don't want us to be people that are just, you know, be people that are just, you know, be people that are just, you know, distracted by the flashy and the distracted by the flashy and the distracted by the flashy and the impressive. I want us to be people who impressive. I want us to be people who impressive. I want us to be people who keep first things first. So that text keep first things first. So that text keep first things first. So that text comes to my mind all the time. comes to my mind all the time. comes to my mind all the time. >> Goodness, I have learned such a lot in >> Goodness, I have learned such a lot in >> Goodness, I have learned such a lot in the last two minutes. Thank you so much the last two minutes. Thank you so much the last two minutes. Thank you so much for for sharing those two texts with us. for for sharing those two texts with us. for for sharing those two texts with us. there there's a huge amount to keep there there's a huge amount to keep there there's a huge amount to keep meditating on and a huge amount of meditating on and a huge amount of meditating on and a huge amount of biblical wisdom there and I I I'm just biblical wisdom there and I I I'm just biblical wisdom there and I I I'm just really grateful for the thinking you've really grateful for the thinking you've really grateful for the thinking you've done and for sharing it with with me and done and for sharing it with with me and done and for sharing it with with me and and people listening and watching.

and people listening and watching. and people listening and watching. A lot of the the work that you've done A lot of the the work that you've done A lot of the the work that you've done has reflected on the the importance of has reflected on the the importance of has reflected on the the importance of the the physical body and the and the the the physical body and the and the the the physical body and the and the theology of the the physical body and AI theology of the the physical body and AI theology of the the physical body and AI is speaking into those discussions in a is speaking into those discussions in a is speaking into those discussions in a very perplexing perhaps um perturbing very perplexing perhaps um perturbing very perplexing perhaps um perturbing way. So it's essentially a lot of it is way. So it's essentially a lot of it is way. So it's essentially a lot of it is about this technology gives you the about this technology gives you the about this technology gives you the opportunity to escape your physical opportunity to escape your physical opportunity to escape your physical limitations. you can work faster, you limitations. you can work faster, you limitations. you can work faster, you can think without sleeping. Your agents can think without sleeping. Your agents can think without sleeping. Your agents are 24/7 doing your job for you. Um, I are 24/7 doing your job for you. Um, I are 24/7 doing your job for you. Um, I I'd love to to hear how you would bring I'd love to to hear how you would bring I'd love to to hear how you would bring that into conversation with a biblical that into conversation with a biblical that into conversation with a biblical theology of the body and and how a theology of the body and and how a theology of the body and and how a biblical view of of being embodied might biblical view of of being embodied might biblical view of of being embodied might potentially push back against some of potentially push back against some of potentially push back against some of this AI hype. this AI hype. this AI hype. Well, that could be an episode on its Well, that could be an episode on its Well, that could be an episode on its own for sure, and I think it's worth own for sure, and I think it's worth own for sure, and I think it's worth asking lots of people how they think asking lots of people how they think asking lots of people how they think about it. One of the things that's most about it. One of the things that's most about it. One of the things that's most fundamental about our faith in the Lord fundamental about our faith in the Lord fundamental about our faith in the Lord Jesus Christ is what an amazing thing it Jesus Christ is what an amazing thing it Jesus Christ is what an amazing thing it is that he took on human flesh.

is that he took on human flesh. is that he took on human flesh. That in like he decided to take on human That in like he decided to take on human That in like he decided to take on human flesh, flesh, flesh, underlining what was already established underlining what was already established underlining what was already established in Genesis that our embodiment is good. in Genesis that our embodiment is good. in Genesis that our embodiment is good. It's really good. And so to the extent And so to the extent that AI tools that AI tools that AI tools suggest to us that our embodiment is suggest to us that our embodiment is suggest to us that our embodiment is bad, we need to be suspicious. Now, our we need to be suspicious. Now, our embodiment is troubled. Um, embodiment is troubled. Um, embodiment is troubled. Um, we were gifted a world thanks to Adam we were gifted a world thanks to Adam we were gifted a world thanks to Adam and Eve that is full of corruption and and Eve that is full of corruption and and Eve that is full of corruption and sin. Uh, death is in fact our enemy. sin. Uh, death is in fact our enemy. sin. Uh, death is in fact our enemy. illness strikes our families strikes us illness strikes our families strikes us illness strikes our families strikes us aging etc. So it's not that embodiment aging etc. So it's not that embodiment aging etc. So it's not that embodiment that we experience embodiment that we experience embodiment that we experience embodiment like we should have in the garden or like we should have in the garden or like we should have in the garden or like we will in the new heavens and the like we will in the new heavens and the like we will in the new heavens and the new earth when we're gifted these new earth when we're gifted these new earth when we're gifted these glorious spiritual bodies. glorious spiritual bodies. glorious spiritual bodies. But nonetheless to the extent the AI But nonetheless to the extent the AI But nonetheless to the extent the AI tools can say like gh it would be so tools can say like gh it would be so tools can say like gh it would be so much better if we were just a hive mind.

much better if we were just a hive mind. much better if we were just a hive mind. H it'd be so much better if we could H it'd be so much better if we could H it'd be so much better if we could construct terminator bodies, which is construct terminator bodies, which is construct terminator bodies, which is really just a gross parody of the new really just a gross parody of the new really just a gross parody of the new body God is going to give us in the body God is going to give us in the body God is going to give us in the resurrection. resurrection. resurrection. That's something we need to be careful That's something we need to be careful That's something we need to be careful of. Like we are embodied. We are limited of. Like we are embodied. We are limited of. Like we are embodied. We are limited in ways that God said was good and we in ways that God said was good and we in ways that God said was good and we need to we need to embrace that. One of need to we need to embrace that. One of need to we need to embrace that. One of the questions that's interested to me the questions that's interested to me the questions that's interested to me even in just terms of theology of the even in just terms of theology of the even in just terms of theology of the body, people have a lot of questions body, people have a lot of questions body, people have a lot of questions about is this going to damage our about is this going to damage our about is this going to damage our understanding of what a human is? understanding of what a human is? understanding of what a human is? And I've been thinking recently, And I've been thinking recently, And I've been thinking recently, actually I did submit a proposal for an actually I did submit a proposal for an actually I did submit a proposal for an academic conference along this line academic conference along this line academic conference along this line recently. I think there's actually two recently. I think there's actually two recently. I think there's actually two questions. AI tools questions. AI tools questions. AI tools do cause us to ask what is a human, but do cause us to ask what is a human, but do cause us to ask what is a human, but they also cause us to ask what is a they also cause us to ask what is a they also cause us to ask what is a person? And I think they're separate person? And I think they're separate person? And I think they're separate questions questions questions and they're both really important because Christianity affirms a because Christianity affirms a particular dignity to humanity. We're particular dignity to humanity. We're particular dignity to humanity. We're made in God's image. We're given a made in God's image. We're given a made in God's image. We're given a particular vocation under him over the particular vocation under him over the particular vocation under him over the world. So we need to work on that and world. So we need to work on that and world. So we need to work on that and not not not I don't know seed ground that's properly I don't know seed ground that's properly I don't know seed ground that's properly ours by God's decree to AI agents ours by God's decree to AI agents ours by God's decree to AI agents what even that sentence could mean in what even that sentence could mean in what even that sentence could mean in all the particulars I don't know yet but all the particulars I don't know yet but all the particulars I don't know yet but I think it's a a beginning but the other

I think it's a a beginning but the other I think it's a a beginning but the other question we have to think of is um question we have to think of is um question we have to think of is um ethically as I relate to especially ethically as I relate to especially ethically as I relate to especially young people young people young people they're not going to be tempted to think they're not going to be tempted to think they're not going to be tempted to think that Claude or Gemini or Chat is a that Claude or Gemini or Chat is a that Claude or Gemini or Chat is a human. They know what a human is. They human. They know what a human is. They human. They know what a human is. They are going to be tempted to think that are going to be tempted to think that are going to be tempted to think that Claude or Gemini or Chat is a person. Claude or Gemini or Chat is a person. Claude or Gemini or Chat is a person. And how could that potentially deform And how could that potentially deform And how could that potentially deform them? And we're already like, I text my them? And we're already like, I text my them? And we're already like, I text my mom, you know, I'm used to interacting mom, you know, I'm used to interacting mom, you know, I'm used to interacting on a screen. I'm not just constantly on a screen. I'm not just constantly on a screen. I'm not just constantly face to face with her. I'm used to face to face with her. I'm used to face to face with her. I'm used to texting my friends like, "Oh, did you texting my friends like, "Oh, did you texting my friends like, "Oh, did you see this? Haha." So when I go over to see this? Haha." So when I go over to see this? Haha." So when I go over to Claude and I type something in, it feels Claude and I type something in, it feels Claude and I type something in, it feels actually like interaction I have with actually like interaction I have with actually like interaction I have with real persons all the time. real persons all the time. real persons all the time. And to the extent that I that I start to And to the extent that I that I start to And to the extent that I that I start to believe I'm interacting with a person, believe I'm interacting with a person, believe I'm interacting with a person, I think it could malform us. This is why I think it could malform us. This is why I think it could malform us. This is why we see people who are marrying bots or we see people who are marrying bots or we see people who are marrying bots or or things like this. So that's that's or things like this. So that's that's or things like this. So that's that's the thing that kind of spooks me a the thing that kind of spooks me a the thing that kind of spooks me a little more is that people will think little more is that people will think little more is that people will think there's a ghost in the machine when there's a ghost in the machine when there's a ghost in the machine when actually actually actually the spirit we need to relate to is the the spirit we need to relate to is the the spirit we need to relate to is the Holy Spirit and the spiritual beings Holy Spirit and the spiritual beings Holy Spirit and the spiritual beings around us. Um the human beings [sighs] around us. Um the human beings [sighs] around us. Um the human beings [sighs] we've been called to love right around we've been called to love right around we've been called to love right around us. So that's that's actually one of the us. So that's that's actually one of the us. So that's that's actually one of the concerns I have. Um we are given bodies concerns I have. Um we are given bodies concerns I have. Um we are given bodies to be this to be this to be this the locus of how we relate to each the locus of how we relate to each the locus of how we relate to each other. Now of course through letters other. Now of course through letters other. Now of course through letters even not even just digital technology

even not even just digital technology even not even just digital technology right some of the Jonathan Edward right some of the Jonathan Edward right some of the Jonathan Edward Edwards had this amazing relationship Edwards had this amazing relationship Edwards had this amazing relationship with the people across the sea in with the people across the sea in with the people across the sea in Britain because he could write letters Britain because he could write letters Britain because he could write letters right so not saying embodied right so not saying embodied right so not saying embodied relationship is the only style to have relationship is the only style to have relationship is the only style to have but our bodies are the site of how we but our bodies are the site of how we but our bodies are the site of how we relate to humans and to people like relate to humans and to people like relate to humans and to people like there's a reason that so [snorts] many there's a reason that so [snorts] many there's a reason that so [snorts] many religions including Christianity have religions including Christianity have religions including Christianity have often had postures of prayer because our often had postures of prayer because our often had postures of prayer because our embodiment as we relate to the ultimate embodiment as we relate to the ultimate embodiment as we relate to the ultimate person can really matter and shape us. person can really matter and shape us. person can really matter and shape us. And so And so And so when we interact with AI persons, our when we interact with AI persons, our when we interact with AI persons, our bodies seem to almost disappear bodies seem to almost disappear bodies seem to almost disappear sometimes or we have to rec, you know, sometimes or we have to rec, you know, sometimes or we have to rec, you know, we'll end up putting AIs in robots and we'll end up putting AIs in robots and we'll end up putting AIs in robots and creating other bodies. I there's a lot creating other bodies. I there's a lot creating other bodies. I there's a lot of questions we're at the beginning of of questions we're at the beginning of of questions we're at the beginning of and we're going to need a lot of and we're going to need a lot of and we're going to need a lot of different answers as we go back to the different answers as we go back to the different answers as we go back to the scriptures, back to our theological scriptures, back to our theological scriptures, back to our theological resources because it's not going to be resources because it's not going to be resources because it's not going to be answered immediately. We're not going to answered immediately. We're not going to answered immediately. We're not going to find the answer to these things in the find the answer to these things in the find the answer to these things in the first two years. We're going to have to first two years. We're going to have to first two years. We're going to have to be a community be a community be a community that works on it together. It It's going that works on it together. It It's going that works on it together. It It's going to take time and that's okay. I think to take time and that's okay. I think to take time and that's okay. I think the opportunity to discover new things the opportunity to discover new things the opportunity to discover new things in our text about who we are and who God in our text about who we are and who God in our text about who we are and who God is, is, is, we can be thankful for that. Absolutely.

we can be thankful for that. Absolutely. we can be thankful for that. Absolutely. That's one of the thrills about living That's one of the thrills about living That's one of the thrills about living as a Christian in any period of history, as a Christian in any period of history, as a Christian in any period of history, isn't it? is that the the Bible is such isn't it? is that the the Bible is such isn't it? is that the the Bible is such a rich resource for dealing with a rich resource for dealing with a rich resource for dealing with whatever new thing comes along and the whatever new thing comes along and the whatever new thing comes along and the the sort of sense of expectation that the sort of sense of expectation that the sort of sense of expectation that you have of just digging into the you have of just digging into the you have of just digging into the biblical text. Okay, AI, let's let's biblical text. Okay, AI, let's let's biblical text. Okay, AI, let's let's have a look. You know, what are we going have a look. You know, what are we going have a look. You know, what are we going to find here? And you've already given to find here? And you've already given to find here? And you've already given us such riches in this conversation. You us such riches in this conversation. You us such riches in this conversation. You know, these these passages sort of know, these these passages sort of know, these these passages sort of almost hidden away in the Bible. you almost hidden away in the Bible. you almost hidden away in the Bible. you think, "Oh my goodness, that is such a think, "Oh my goodness, that is such a think, "Oh my goodness, that is such a profound reflection on the moment of AI profound reflection on the moment of AI profound reflection on the moment of AI in our culture." And just finding those in our culture." And just finding those in our culture." And just finding those passages is is one of the most wonderful passages is is one of the most wonderful passages is is one of the most wonderful thrilling things about Bible study. Um I thrilling things about Bible study. Um I thrilling things about Bible study. Um I think certainly from a cultural point of think certainly from a cultural point of think certainly from a cultural point of view um that that there is. And how much view um that that there is. And how much view um that that there is. And how much could we learn just from like I probably could we learn just from like I probably could we learn just from like I probably each of us should stop right now and you each of us should stop right now and you each of us should stop right now and you know spend the next couple weeks reading know spend the next couple weeks reading know spend the next couple weeks reading the book of Proverbs with AI tools in the book of Proverbs with AI tools in the book of Proverbs with AI tools in mind and think what does Proverbs have mind and think what does Proverbs have mind and think what does Proverbs have to teach me about work and how does that to teach me about work and how does that to teach me about work and how does that fit in with these new moments right? So fit in with these new moments right? So fit in with these new moments right? So like we're like we're like we're we will never get to the end of the we will never get to the end of the we will never get to the end of the riches that God has given us in the riches that God has given us in the riches that God has given us in the scriptures. We just won't.

scriptures. We just won't. scriptures. We just won't. >> And you could do that with every book of >> And you could do that with every book of >> And you could do that with every book of the Bible and get a different aspect a the Bible and get a different aspect a the Bible and get a different aspect a different angle on it couldn't you? And different angle on it couldn't you? And different angle on it couldn't you? And they build up this sort of multifaceted they build up this sort of multifaceted they build up this sort of multifaceted view of AI with every book of the Bible view of AI with every book of the Bible view of AI with every book of the Bible giving its individual unique voice. I giving its individual unique voice. I giving its individual unique voice. I suppose back to this idea of voice suppose back to this idea of voice suppose back to this idea of voice >> or you know I could just enter into >> or you know I could just enter into >> or you know I could just enter into Claude. Hey Claude, tell me what every Claude. Hey Claude, tell me what every Claude. Hey Claude, tell me what every book of the Bible says about work and AI book of the Bible says about work and AI book of the Bible says about work and AI tools and then I wouldn't be shaped at tools and then I wouldn't be shaped at tools and then I wouldn't be shaped at all. all. all. >> I wouldn't delight myself. >> I wouldn't delight myself. >> I wouldn't delight myself. >> Yeah. Right. [laughter] >> Yeah. Right. [laughter] >> Yeah. Right. [laughter] a as you're speaking, one thing that a as you're speaking, one thing that a as you're speaking, one thing that that came to mind was the the the idea that came to mind was the the the idea that came to mind was the the the idea of the face as as a particular, you of the face as as a particular, you of the face as as a particular, you know, sort of part of the body and the know, sort of part of the body and the know, sort of part of the body and the >> the importance of the face biblically. >> the importance of the face biblically. >> the importance of the face biblically. Look, I'm sure someone's written a book Look, I'm sure someone's written a book Look, I'm sure someone's written a book on the biblical theology of the face. I on the biblical theology of the face. I on the biblical theology of the face. I just haven't read it. But, you know, the just haven't read it. But, you know, the just haven't read it. But, you know, the idea of seeing God face to face is a idea of seeing God face to face is a idea of seeing God face to face is a very very special very very special very very special >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> mode of encountering God. There's >> mode of encountering God. There's >> mode of encountering God. There's something unique and frightening about something unique and frightening about something unique and frightening about seeing God face to face and the way in seeing God face to face and the way in seeing God face to face and the way in which the face is so important which the face is so important which the face is so important philosophically as well. The philosophically as well. The philosophically as well. The philosophers in the 20th century like philosophers in the 20th century like philosophers in the 20th century like Emanuel Levven has talk about the face Emanuel Levven has talk about the face Emanuel Levven has talk about the face as as as this incredibly significant as as as this incredibly significant as as as this incredibly significant mode of encounter. I I I think there mode of encounter. I I I think there mode of encounter. I I I think there would be fascinating work to be done would be fascinating work to be done would be fascinating work to be done about the the way in which AI about the the way in which AI about the the way in which AI through not having a face or through through not having a face or through through not having a face or through having an artificial sort of confected having an artificial sort of confected having an artificial sort of confected face, something that looks like a face face, something that looks like a face face, something that looks like a face and imitates a face but but isn't a and imitates a face but but isn't a and imitates a face but but isn't a human face. What that does to human face. What that does to human face. What that does to relationships as well and rooting that

relationships as well and rooting that relationships as well and rooting that in a biblical theology of the face in a biblical theology of the face in a biblical theology of the face >> would would be fascinating. >> would would be fascinating. >> would would be fascinating. >> I don't even know if this is a valid >> I don't even know if this is a valid >> I don't even know if this is a valid connection. Let's think out loud again connection. Let's think out loud again connection. Let's think out loud again together. But so many idols had faces together. But so many idols had faces together. But so many idols had faces too. Think about the head of Deeon that fell Think about the head of Deeon that fell over but cannot speak. over but cannot speak. over but cannot speak. >> And so it there's also this element of >> And so it there's also this element of >> And so it there's also this element of Ooh. So previously when Isaiah was Ooh. So previously when Isaiah was Ooh. So previously when Isaiah was making fun of idols, he's like, "You cut making fun of idols, he's like, "You cut making fun of idols, he's like, "You cut off half the stick and cooked your lunch off half the stick and cooked your lunch off half the stick and cooked your lunch on it, and you carved this other half on it, and you carved this other half on it, and you carved this other half and made it into an idol. But we're and made it into an idol. But we're and made it into an idol. But we're trickier, aren't we?" A we don't worship trickier, aren't we?" A we don't worship trickier, aren't we?" A we don't worship sticks. I have this perfectly formed AI sticks. I have this perfectly formed AI sticks. I have this perfectly formed AI face that can talk to me and solve my face that can talk to me and solve my face that can talk to me and solve my plans for dinner and my anxieties over plans for dinner and my anxieties over plans for dinner and my anxieties over my health problems and listen to my day. my health problems and listen to my day. my health problems and listen to my day. I have to wonder if that ancient thread I have to wonder if that ancient thread I have to wonder if that ancient thread of idolatry isn't going to try to creep of idolatry isn't going to try to creep of idolatry isn't going to try to creep in through this. It looks fancier than what Isaiah was It looks fancier than what Isaiah was talking about, but if there's no there talking about, but if there's no there talking about, but if there's no there there, there's no someone there, there, there's no someone there, there, there's no someone there, it's a simulation that has the potential it's a simulation that has the potential it's a simulation that has the potential to deceive in very dangerous ways. So, to deceive in very dangerous ways. So, to deceive in very dangerous ways. So, three questions to think about then, three questions to think about then, three questions to think about then, trying to distill what we've been trying to distill what we've been trying to distill what we've been talking about. What does it mean to have talking about. What does it mean to have talking about. What does it mean to have a voice? What does it mean to have a a voice? What does it mean to have a a voice? What does it mean to have a face?

face? face? And what does it mean to speak from And what does it mean to speak from And what does it mean to speak from somewhere? Or or another way of saying somewhere? Or or another way of saying somewhere? Or or another way of saying that, what does it mean to witness that, what does it mean to witness that, what does it mean to witness through language? And and those through language? And and those through language? And and those incredibly important questions for us to incredibly important questions for us to incredibly important questions for us to be asking as a Christian community uh in be asking as a Christian community uh in be asking as a Christian community uh in as AI becomes more and more present in as AI becomes more and more present in as AI becomes more and more present in our culture. We've we've sort of, you our culture. We've we've sort of, you our culture. We've we've sort of, you know, spread our wings and and flown in know, spread our wings and and flown in know, spread our wings and and flown in this conversation. We've mentioned this conversation. We've mentioned this conversation. We've mentioned Avent, we mentioned Odonov, and you Avent, we mentioned Odonov, and you Avent, we mentioned Odonov, and you know, we've been in Bible paths. I I I know, we've been in Bible paths. I I I know, we've been in Bible paths. I I I want to want to want to >> I want to make sure that we don't lose >> I want to make sure that we don't lose >> I want to make sure that we don't lose the practical side of this. And so I I'm the practical side of this. And so I I'm the practical side of this. And so I I'm thinking about the the person listening thinking about the the person listening thinking about the the person listening to this or watching this um and how to this or watching this um and how to this or watching this um and how their life might be in say five years their life might be in say five years their life might be in say five years time. If if someone took to heart time. If if someone took to heart time. If if someone took to heart everything that that you've been everything that that you've been everything that that you've been pointing to in the scriptures throughout pointing to in the scriptures throughout pointing to in the scriptures throughout this conversation, how do you think this conversation, how do you think this conversation, how do you think their their life could potentially look their their life could potentially look their their life could potentially look noticeably different? And I'm thinking noticeably different? And I'm thinking noticeably different? And I'm thinking particularly about their working life, particularly about their working life, particularly about their working life, but you might want to go broader than but you might want to go broader than but you might want to go broader than that 5 years from now.

that 5 years from now. that 5 years from now. >> How would how can these >> How would how can these >> How would how can these >> issues that we've been talking about >> issues that we've been talking about >> issues that we've been talking about really shapers? really shapers? really shapers? >> Yeah, and it's a good question, >> Yeah, and it's a good question, >> Yeah, and it's a good question, especially because there's so many especially because there's so many especially because there's so many different types of work. different types of work. different types of work. So many different we could possibly So many different we could possibly So many different we could possibly cover them all. I think in 5 to 10 years cover them all. I think in 5 to 10 years cover them all. I think in 5 to 10 years time time time we'll probably see a proliferation of we'll probably see a proliferation of we'll probably see a proliferation of various AI tools that do various tasks various AI tools that do various tasks various AI tools that do various tasks just like we've had very like a variety just like we've had very like a variety just like we've had very like a variety of other digital tools that have come of other digital tools that have come of other digital tools that have come into our our life. So someone who works into our our life. So someone who works into our our life. So someone who works as a frier, you know, making horseshoes, as a frier, you know, making horseshoes, as a frier, you know, making horseshoes, I don't know that an AI tool is going to I don't know that an AI tool is going to I don't know that an AI tool is going to make much of a difference in her her make much of a difference in her her make much of a difference in her her work life, right? So it could be she's work life, right? So it could be she's work life, right? So it could be she's more thinking about AI tools uh as she more thinking about AI tools uh as she more thinking about AI tools uh as she maybe drafts an email to a difficult maybe drafts an email to a difficult maybe drafts an email to a difficult difficult family member. Perhaps difficult family member. Perhaps difficult family member. Perhaps sometimes having a brainstorm sometimes having a brainstorm sometimes having a brainstorm that lowers your own temperature if that lowers your own temperature if that lowers your own temperature if you're angry or nervous about something you're angry or nervous about something you're angry or nervous about something can be just a helpful sounding board.

can be just a helpful sounding board. can be just a helpful sounding board. But for those of us whose work has But for those of us whose work has But for those of us whose work has already been already been already been saturated with things like email and saturated with things like email and saturated with things like email and video conferencing, we should expect in video conferencing, we should expect in video conferencing, we should expect in 5 to 10 years that we're going to be 5 to 10 years that we're going to be 5 to 10 years that we're going to be much more familiar with AI tools, what much more familiar with AI tools, what much more familiar with AI tools, what they can do, what they can't do. they can do, what they can't do. they can do, what they can't do. So I think we should learn them So I think we should learn them So I think we should learn them uh to the extent that uh to the extent that uh to the extent that they are part of the work that God has they are part of the work that God has they are part of the work that God has put in front of us. If you work in a put in front of us. If you work in a put in front of us. If you work in a particular organization and a tool gets particular organization and a tool gets particular organization and a tool gets rolled out, be the kind of person who rolled out, be the kind of person who rolled out, be the kind of person who says okay I will learn I will learn this says okay I will learn I will learn this says okay I will learn I will learn this tool. I will learn its strengths and its tool. I will learn its strengths and its tool. I will learn its strengths and its weaknesses and pay attention to how it might be and pay attention to how it might be tempting you. tempting you. tempting you. We're all very different in what we're We're all very different in what we're We're all very different in what we're tempted towards, right? But anytime any tempted towards, right? But anytime any tempted towards, right? But anytime any there's so many things in work that there's so many things in work that there's so many things in work that tempt us. I remember working at a law tempt us. I remember working at a law tempt us. I remember working at a law firm right out of college and I was so firm right out of college and I was so firm right out of college and I was so tempted. tempted. tempted. I would be listening to these great I would be listening to these great I would be listening to these great gospel coalition gospel coalition gospel coalition content things and not doing the work I content things and not doing the work I content things and not doing the work I should have been doing and the spirit should have been doing and the spirit should have been doing and the spirit would convict me. Right? So work has would convict me. Right? So work has would convict me. Right? So work has always had its own temptations. So learn always had its own temptations. So learn always had its own temptations. So learn the tools. Think be critically thinking the tools. Think be critically thinking the tools. Think be critically thinking about like where am I tempted to about like where am I tempted to about like where am I tempted to misrepresent myself? Where am I tempted misrepresent myself? Where am I tempted misrepresent myself? Where am I tempted to cut corners as opposed to reducing to cut corners as opposed to reducing to cut corners as opposed to reducing work? Where am I tempted to maybe cut work? Where am I tempted to maybe cut work? Where am I tempted to maybe cut out collaboration with colleagues out collaboration with colleagues out collaboration with colleagues because because because it's just harder when it would be it's just harder when it would be it's just harder when it would be actually good to build the team, right?

actually good to build the team, right? actually good to build the team, right? Like just think critically. Use the Like just think critically. Use the Like just think critically. Use the tools and think critically. We have in tools and think critically. We have in tools and think critically. We have in our work always an opportunity our work always an opportunity our work always an opportunity for Christ to transform us and so to be for Christ to transform us and so to be for Christ to transform us and so to be a witness. And it could be that some of a witness. And it could be that some of a witness. And it could be that some of us the way we relate to AI tools will be us the way we relate to AI tools will be us the way we relate to AI tools will be a kind of witness like oh I see you're a kind of witness like oh I see you're a kind of witness like oh I see you're able to able to able to use these things but you don't seem to use these things but you don't seem to use these things but you don't seem to be beholden to them or afraid of them. be beholden to them or afraid of them. be beholden to them or afraid of them. That's kind of curious. Like how do you That's kind of curious. Like how do you That's kind of curious. Like how do you have this type of peace in your work have this type of peace in your work have this type of peace in your work life? life? life? I don't know. That could be one option, I don't know. That could be one option, I don't know. That could be one option, right? So, I'm trying to think through right? So, I'm trying to think through right? So, I'm trying to think through being the kind of person that can use being the kind of person that can use being the kind of person that can use any tool well, including AI tools. And any tool well, including AI tools. And any tool well, including AI tools. And so, I that's going to depend on who we so, I that's going to depend on who we so, I that's going to depend on who we are and what we're doing, but each of us are and what we're doing, but each of us are and what we're doing, but each of us can think that through. Yeah. I I love can think that through. Yeah. I I love can think that through. Yeah. I I love the way that you're you're picking the way that you're you're picking the way that you're you're picking through these issues carefully. you're through these issues carefully. you're through these issues carefully. you're not sort of knee-jerkishly not sort of knee-jerkishly not sort of knee-jerkishly either, you know, resolving to some sort either, you know, resolving to some sort either, you know, resolving to some sort of um doomer position or or some sort of of um doomer position or or some sort of of um doomer position or or some sort of boomer position. But that there's a and boomer position. But that there's a and boomer position. But that there's a and that is hard, isn't it? The the way that that is hard, isn't it? The the way that that is hard, isn't it? The the way that doesn't doesn't doesn't just paint itself into one of the just paint itself into one of the just paint itself into one of the corners is a difficult way to travel corners is a difficult way to travel corners is a difficult way to travel because it requires constant thinking because it requires constant thinking because it requires constant thinking and going back to the scriptures and and going back to the scriptures and and going back to the scriptures and working things out uh of us. And one working things out uh of us. And one working things out uh of us. And one thing that you mentioned, a little thing that you mentioned, a little thing that you mentioned, a little phrase that you used in that last answer phrase that you used in that last answer phrase that you used in that last answer really resonated with me. I think you really resonated with me. I think you really resonated with me. I think you talked about being the sort of person talked about being the sort of person talked about being the sort of person who can do this or that and and in a

who can do this or that and and in a who can do this or that and and in a sense that is that is one of the things sense that is that is one of the things sense that is that is one of the things that's up for grabs, isn't it? as AI that's up for grabs, isn't it? as AI that's up for grabs, isn't it? as AI does more and more of our work because does more and more of our work because does more and more of our work because what the the difficult work and perhaps what the the difficult work and perhaps what the the difficult work and perhaps even the busy work does to us is it even the busy work does to us is it even the busy work does to us is it makes us the sort of person who, you makes us the sort of person who, you makes us the sort of person who, you know, fill in the blank, can receive the know, fill in the blank, can receive the know, fill in the blank, can receive the phone call at 2 a.m. in the morning and phone call at 2 a.m. in the morning and phone call at 2 a.m. in the morning and knows what to do about it. The sort of knows what to do about it. The sort of knows what to do about it. The sort of person who can change the 20th diaper person who can change the 20th diaper person who can change the 20th diaper that day and still love their neighbor, that day and still love their neighbor, that day and still love their neighbor, you know. And it's it's that priceless you know. And it's it's that priceless you know. And it's it's that priceless irreplaceable irreplaceable irreplaceable sort of capacity that you you can't at sort of capacity that you you can't at sort of capacity that you you can't at in that moment ask Claude what to do in that moment ask Claude what to do in that moment ask Claude what to do that that there are moments when it's that that there are moments when it's that that there are moments when it's down to you and are you the sort of down to you and are you the sort of down to you and are you the sort of person who person who person who >> can rise to a particular occasion. >> can rise to a particular occasion. >> can rise to a particular occasion. >> Well, that reminds me even Paul's >> Well, that reminds me even Paul's >> Well, that reminds me even Paul's discourse to slaves in the New discourse to slaves in the New discourse to slaves in the New Testament, right? There's very much Testament, right? There's very much Testament, right? There's very much like, hey, if you can gain your freedom, like, hey, if you can gain your freedom, like, hey, if you can gain your freedom, do it. It's trying to say like there's do it. It's trying to say like there's do it. It's trying to say like there's forms of work that forms of work that forms of work that uh fundamentally if you can get out of uh fundamentally if you can get out of uh fundamentally if you can get out of it go ahead and get out of it and still it go ahead and get out of it and still it go ahead and get out of it and still even in that condition we have enough even in that condition we have enough even in that condition we have enough humanity like we retain our humanity and humanity like we retain our humanity and humanity like we retain our humanity and our dignity in front of the Lord our dignity in front of the Lord our dignity in front of the Lord so that no matter where we find so that no matter where we find so that no matter where we find ourselves we have the opportunity to be ourselves we have the opportunity to be ourselves we have the opportunity to be transformed into his image even in work transformed into his image even in work transformed into his image even in work that like if we can get out we should that like if we can get out we should that like if we can get out we should get out right and so That's get out right and so That's get out right and so That's that's a comfort because some of us are that's a comfort because some of us are that's a comfort because some of us are going to be in seasons where we've got going to be in seasons where we've got going to be in seasons where we've got work or labor to do that like goodness work or labor to do that like goodness work or labor to do that like goodness we never would have chosen

we never would have chosen we never would have chosen and God can still meet us there. and God can still meet us there. and God can still meet us there. >> What a grace that is. Um how terrible it >> What a grace that is. Um how terrible it >> What a grace that is. Um how terrible it would be were that not the case. What would be were that not the case. What would be were that not the case. What inefficient human habitu are you inefficient human habitu are you inefficient human habitu are you committed to keeping in the age of AI? committed to keeping in the age of AI? committed to keeping in the age of AI? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Oh, that's such a good one. Right now, >> Oh, that's such a good one. Right now, >> Oh, that's such a good one. Right now, I do most of my thinking by hand. Like, I do most of my thinking by hand. Like, I do most of my thinking by hand. Like, as in when I brainstorm, I have a piece as in when I brainstorm, I have a piece as in when I brainstorm, I have a piece of paper, I have a pen or a pencil, and of paper, I have a pen or a pencil, and of paper, I have a pen or a pencil, and I write things out by hand. I write things out by hand. I write things out by hand. I find that engages me in a very I find that engages me in a very I find that engages me in a very different way and I'm committed to that different way and I'm committed to that different way and I'm committed to that for sure. for sure. for sure. >> It's it's been an absolute delight um >> It's it's been an absolute delight um >> It's it's been an absolute delight um Rachel speaking with you about these Rachel speaking with you about these Rachel speaking with you about these things. I certainly for one have learned things. I certainly for one have learned things. I certainly for one have learned a huge amount from the conversation and a huge amount from the conversation and a huge amount from the conversation and I I trust and pray um that uh our I I trust and pray um that uh our I I trust and pray um that uh our viewers and listeners will have done the viewers and listeners will have done the viewers and listeners will have done the same. If people listening or watching same. If people listening or watching same. If people listening or watching want to take these ideas further uh want to take these ideas further uh want to take these ideas further uh please do join the silicon please do join the silicon please do join the silicon spiritualities discord where we're spiritualities discord where we're spiritualities discord where we're learning together how to live for Christ learning together how to live for Christ learning together how to live for Christ in a techsaturated world. Um, you're in a techsaturated world. Um, you're in a techsaturated world. Um, you're going to find practical experiments going to find practical experiments going to find practical experiments related to every episode, things you can related to every episode, things you can related to every episode, things you can do, uh, behaviors you can change in and do, uh, behaviors you can change in and do, uh, behaviors you can change in and try in your own lives, and also details try in your own lives, and also details try in your own lives, and also details of an upcoming online cohort as well.

of an upcoming online cohort as well. of an upcoming online cohort as well. Um, the link for that is, uh, waiting Um, the link for that is, uh, waiting Um, the link for that is, uh, waiting for you, uh, in the show notes. Uh, we'd for you, uh, in the show notes. Uh, we'd for you, uh, in the show notes. Uh, we'd love to see you there. [music] And love to see you there. [music] And love to see you there. [music] And Rachel, thank you ever so much uh, for Rachel, thank you ever so much uh, for Rachel, thank you ever so much uh, for the wisdom uh, and the gracious manner the wisdom uh, and the gracious manner the wisdom uh, and the gracious manner as well with which uh, you shared it as well with which uh, you shared it as well with which uh, you shared it with us today. with us today. with us today. >> It was my pleasure.