AI and the Image of God: What Does it Mean to be Human? [Silicon Spiritualities - Ep. 3]

Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, Welcome to Silicon Spiritualities, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition a podcast from the Gospel Coalition a podcast from the Gospel Coalition about what it means to be human in the about what it means to be human in the about what it means to be human in the age of AI. age of AI. age of AI. I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this I'm Christopher Watkin, and in this series, we're going to unpack three series, we're going to unpack three series, we're going to unpack three crucial questions. crucial questions. crucial questions. What can AI do for us? What is it doing What can AI do for us? What is it doing What can AI do for us? What is it doing to us? And what is it showing us about to us? And what is it showing us about to us? And what is it showing us about who we really are? who we really are? who we really are? Today, I'm joined by Steven Driscoll, Today, I'm joined by Steven Driscoll, Today, I'm joined by Steven Driscoll, author of the award-winning book, Made author of the award-winning book, Made author of the award-winning book, Made in Our Image: God, Artificial in Our Image: God, Artificial in Our Image: God, Artificial Intelligence, and You. And we're going Intelligence, and You. And we're going Intelligence, and You. And we're going to explore how AI might actually help us to explore how AI might actually help us to explore how AI might actually help us to understand ourselves and God better. to understand ourselves and God better. to understand ourselves and God better. Stephen, welcome to the podcast. Stephen, welcome to the podcast. Stephen, welcome to the podcast. >> Thanks so much for having me on, Chris. >> Thanks so much for having me on, Chris. >> Thanks so much for having me on, Chris. Stephen, you're um a staff worker with a Stephen, you're um a staff worker with a Stephen, you're um a staff worker with a Christian student group in Australia, Christian student group in Australia, Christian student group in Australia, and most people in your position, I and most people in your position, I and most people in your position, I guess, would write books on evangelism guess, would write books on evangelism guess, would write books on evangelism or Bible study, but you've written a or Bible study, but you've written a or Bible study, but you've written a theological book on artificial theological book on artificial theological book on artificial intelligence.

intelligence. intelligence. Why was that the book you wanted to Why was that the book you wanted to Why was that the book you wanted to write? And what itch are you trying to write? And what itch are you trying to write? And what itch are you trying to scratch with it? scratch with it? scratch with it? >> Yeah, every few years a new >> Yeah, every few years a new >> Yeah, every few years a new technological revolution comes through. technological revolution comes through. technological revolution comes through. It could be smartphones, could be Wi-Fi, It could be smartphones, could be Wi-Fi, It could be smartphones, could be Wi-Fi, could be whatever it is. But um as they could be whatever it is. But um as they could be whatever it is. But um as they come through, they are always practical come through, they are always practical come through, they are always practical topics. They reshape the way we we we do topics. They reshape the way we we we do topics. They reshape the way we we we do parenting. They reshape the way we think parenting. They reshape the way we think parenting. They reshape the way we think about marriages or faith or church, what about marriages or faith or church, what about marriages or faith or church, what it looks like to go to church, how we do it looks like to go to church, how we do it looks like to go to church, how we do our Bible studies. So technological our Bible studies. So technological our Bible studies. So technological topics uh on that scale end up being topics uh on that scale end up being topics uh on that scale end up being practical topics. And so I wanted to practical topics. And so I wanted to practical topics. And so I wanted to help um think about this this topic from help um think about this this topic from help um think about this this topic from a Christian point of view. I mean a lot a Christian point of view. I mean a lot a Christian point of view. I mean a lot of people are thinking about AI. Um but of people are thinking about AI. Um but of people are thinking about AI. Um but I wanted to help people to think I wanted to help people to think I wanted to help people to think biblically about AI to marshall the biblically about AI to marshall the biblically about AI to marshall the resources of of the Christian uh the resources of of the Christian uh the resources of of the Christian uh the Christian faith and the Christian Bible Christian faith and the Christian Bible Christian faith and the Christian Bible to help us to think about this. Well, um to help us to think about this. Well, um to help us to think about this. Well, um but I do have a second reason which is but I do have a second reason which is but I do have a second reason which is actually I think the main reason uh that actually I think the main reason uh that actually I think the main reason uh that I wanted to get into this topic which is I wanted to get into this topic which is I wanted to get into this topic which is um I wanted to help us to keep um I wanted to help us to keep um I wanted to help us to keep practicing connecting the the word the practicing connecting the the word the practicing connecting the the word the ancient word to the modern world to the ancient word to the modern world to the ancient word to the modern world to the the world um that uh we can be bad at the world um that uh we can be bad at the world um that uh we can be bad at this. We can have a big gap between the this. We can have a big gap between the this. We can have a big gap between the modern world we live in and the the modern world we live in and the the modern world we live in and the the ancient Bible and we don't know how to ancient Bible and we don't know how to ancient Bible and we don't know how to bring it to bear. We don't know what bring it to bear. We don't know what bring it to bear. We don't know what wisdom it offers for us as we try and wisdom it offers for us as we try and wisdom it offers for us as we try and live our modern lives. Um, and I thought live our modern lives. Um, and I thought live our modern lives. Um, and I thought if you can connect the Bible to a topic if you can connect the Bible to a topic if you can connect the Bible to a topic as as modern as AI, if it has wisdom and as as modern as AI, if it has wisdom and as as modern as AI, if it has wisdom and principles and guidance for AI, then principles and guidance for AI, then principles and guidance for AI, then that should give us confidence that it that should give us confidence that it that should give us confidence that it has wisdom and principles and guidance has wisdom and principles and guidance has wisdom and principles and guidance for all sorts of modern issues along the

for all sorts of modern issues along the for all sorts of modern issues along the way. So there are my two reasons. Let's way. So there are my two reasons. Let's way. So there are my two reasons. Let's dive into that modern world in in a very dive into that modern world in in a very dive into that modern world in in a very specific way. I want you to imagine this specific way. I want you to imagine this specific way. I want you to imagine this scenario. So imagine Nate, uh, he's a scenario. So imagine Nate, uh, he's a scenario. So imagine Nate, uh, he's a new dad. He's at the hospital. It's 2:00 new dad. He's at the hospital. It's 2:00 new dad. He's at the hospital. It's 2:00 a.m. He's holding his newborn daughter, a.m. He's holding his newborn daughter, a.m. He's holding his newborn daughter, Ellie, in his arms. Now, of course, she Ellie, in his arms. Now, of course, she Ellie, in his arms. Now, of course, she can't speak. She can't reason. She can't can't speak. She can't reason. She can't can't speak. She can't reason. She can't do anything remotely useful yet. Uh, do anything remotely useful yet. Uh, do anything remotely useful yet. Uh, she's staring and squirming and she's staring and squirming and she's staring and squirming and squealing and sleeping. squealing and sleeping. squealing and sleeping. And while she rests in his arms, Nate's And while she rests in his arms, Nate's And while she rests in his arms, Nate's scrolling his phone and he sees a scrolling his phone and he sees a scrolling his phone and he sees a headline, a new AI model that's just headline, a new AI model that's just headline, a new AI model that's just passed the bar exam and the medical passed the bar exam and the medical passed the bar exam and the medical boards in the same week. boards in the same week. boards in the same week. and he looks back down at Ellie and and he looks back down at Ellie and and he looks back down at Ellie and suddenly Nate feels a chill suddenly Nate feels a chill suddenly Nate feels a chill because he realizes that this baby is because he realizes that this baby is because he realizes that this baby is going to grow up in a world where she is going to grow up in a world where she is going to grow up in a world where she is never going to be the smartest one in never going to be the smartest one in never going to be the smartest one in the room. the room. the room. And if being human means being And if being human means being And if being human means being intelligent or capable, intelligent or capable, intelligent or capable, then then then Nate realizes that it's game over. The Nate realizes that it's game over. The Nate realizes that it's game over. The machine has won. And so he looks down at machine has won. And so he looks down at machine has won. And so he looks down at this fragile, helpless little bundle of this fragile, helpless little bundle of this fragile, helpless little bundle of flesh, and he wonders, flesh, and he wonders, flesh, and he wonders, is she actually as valuable as the is she actually as valuable as the is she actually as valuable as the machine at the end of the day?

machine at the end of the day? machine at the end of the day? And Stephen, I'd love you just to speak And Stephen, I'd love you just to speak And Stephen, I'd love you just to speak to Nate in that moment. What is that to Nate in that moment. What is that to Nate in that moment. What is that fear that he's feeling? Is it justified? fear that he's feeling? Is it justified? fear that he's feeling? Is it justified? What would you say to him? What would you say to him? What would you say to him? >> Yeah, I' I'd say, Nate, it's 2:00 a.m. >> Yeah, I' I'd say, Nate, it's 2:00 a.m. >> Yeah, I' I'd say, Nate, it's 2:00 a.m. Your newborn has finally gone to sleep. Your newborn has finally gone to sleep. Your newborn has finally gone to sleep. Go to sleep, mate. It's going to be a Go to sleep, mate. It's going to be a Go to sleep, mate. It's going to be a long road. long road. long road. take whatever sleep you can get. And um take whatever sleep you can get. And um take whatever sleep you can get. And um this is a very real question for me. this is a very real question for me. this is a very real question for me. I've got a um a 2-year-old and a baby. I've got a um a 2-year-old and a baby. I've got a um a 2-year-old and a baby. Um so I've been in situations like this Um so I've been in situations like this Um so I've been in situations like this late at night in the hospital ward. late at night in the hospital ward. late at night in the hospital ward. You're thinking about the future and all You're thinking about the future and all You're thinking about the future and all those sorts of things. I don't know if those sorts of things. I don't know if those sorts of things. I don't know if my kids will ever be smarter um than the my kids will ever be smarter um than the my kids will ever be smarter um than the artificial intelligence around them. Um artificial intelligence around them. Um artificial intelligence around them. Um so it's a very real a very real threat. so it's a very real a very real threat. so it's a very real a very real threat. And if I could just tease it out a And if I could just tease it out a And if I could just tease it out a little bit, I think there's three little bit, I think there's three little bit, I think there's three threats that that we're going to face. threats that that we're going to face. threats that that we're going to face. three big identity threats that are kind three big identity threats that are kind three big identity threats that are kind of coming towards us. The first one is of coming towards us. The first one is >> [snorts] >> um I think they are going to be more >> um I think they are going to be more >> um I think they are going to be more intelligent than us. Uh however you intelligent than us. Uh however you intelligent than us. Uh however you define that, however you describe that, define that, however you describe that, define that, however you describe that, they can already win gold medals at the they can already win gold medals at the they can already win gold medals at the International Maths Olympiad. I can't do International Maths Olympiad. I can't do International Maths Olympiad. I can't do that. I think they're going to be more that. I think they're going to be more that. I think they're going to be more intelligent than us. Um I think they're intelligent than us. Um I think they're intelligent than us. Um I think they're going to be more creative than us. So going to be more creative than us. So going to be more creative than us. So the the artsy people aren't safe either the the artsy people aren't safe either the the artsy people aren't safe either because they will produce great music.

because they will produce great music. because they will produce great music. They will produce great artwork. They They will produce great artwork. They They will produce great artwork. They they'll write stories. They'll they'll they'll write stories. They'll they'll they'll write stories. They'll they'll think of creative ways to play chess. think of creative ways to play chess. think of creative ways to play chess. They'll think of creative ways to solve They'll think of creative ways to solve They'll think of creative ways to solve scientific problems. So, I think they're scientific problems. So, I think they're scientific problems. So, I think they're coming for our creativity. They're coming for our creativity. They're coming for our creativity. They're coming for our intelligence. I think coming for our intelligence. I think coming for our intelligence. I think they're also going to be more they're also going to be more they're also going to be more economically useful than us. There's so economically useful than us. There's so economically useful than us. There's so many different professions that by bit many different professions that by bit many different professions that by bit they'll encroach on and eventually take they'll encroach on and eventually take they'll encroach on and eventually take over. So, there's three threats there. over. So, there's three threats there. over. So, there's three threats there. Intelligence, creativity, and our Intelligence, creativity, and our Intelligence, creativity, and our economic usefulness. Um, all of which economic usefulness. Um, all of which economic usefulness. Um, all of which Ellie's going to have to grow up um Ellie's going to have to grow up um Ellie's going to have to grow up um facing. And for a lot of people, I think facing. And for a lot of people, I think facing. And for a lot of people, I think the next question would be, well, where the next question would be, well, where the next question would be, well, where on earth does that leave us then? on earth does that leave us then? on earth does that leave us then? Because in the modern world, we've sort Because in the modern world, we've sort Because in the modern world, we've sort of built our sense of who we are, of built our sense of who we are, of built our sense of who we are, haven't we? Around these things like I'm haven't we? Around these things like I'm haven't we? Around these things like I'm special in the universe because I'm special in the universe because I'm special in the universe because I'm intelligent or I'm unique in the intelligent or I'm unique in the intelligent or I'm unique in the universe because I'm creative. And what universe because I'm creative. And what universe because I'm creative. And what I hear you saying is is AI is is just I hear you saying is is AI is is just I hear you saying is is AI is is just dropping nuclear bombs on all of those dropping nuclear bombs on all of those dropping nuclear bombs on all of those things. And so I'd love you to speak things. And so I'd love you to speak things. And so I'd love you to speak first of all just into the idea of what first of all just into the idea of what first of all just into the idea of what is that doing to our view of ourselves is that doing to our view of ourselves is that doing to our view of ourselves in the modern world and and what is it in the modern world and and what is it in the modern world and and what is it showing us that was always really really showing us that was always really really showing us that was always really really unhealthy about that view but we might unhealthy about that view but we might unhealthy about that view but we might just not have realized it until AI came just not have realized it until AI came just not have realized it until AI came along able to do these things better along able to do these things better along able to do these things better than we can.

than we can. than we can. >> Yeah. And now you should be careful >> Yeah. And now you should be careful >> Yeah. And now you should be careful saying AI is just quote dropping nuclear saying AI is just quote dropping nuclear saying AI is just quote dropping nuclear bombs. I mean that that's quite a bombs. I mean that that's quite a bombs. I mean that that's quite a sentence to stay out of context. sentence to stay out of context. sentence to stay out of context. [laughter] All right. Bit bit of a [laughter] All right. Bit bit of a [laughter] All right. Bit bit of a Freudian slip there perhaps. Freudian slip there perhaps. Freudian slip there perhaps. >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe that'll happen >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe that'll happen >> Yeah. Yeah. Well, maybe that'll happen in 10 20 years. Um if Terminator 2 is in 10 20 years. Um if Terminator 2 is in 10 20 years. Um if Terminator 2 is correct. Um yeah, you're right that we correct. Um yeah, you're right that we correct. Um yeah, you're right that we we already have a crisis of identity. Um we already have a crisis of identity. Um we already have a crisis of identity. Um we say that identity is is more we say that identity is is more we say that identity is is more important than almost any other issue. important than almost any other issue. important than almost any other issue. This is the single thing that young This is the single thing that young This is the single thing that young people must figure out. Who are you? Who people must figure out. Who are you? Who people must figure out. Who are you? Who are you becoming? I mean, it's the are you becoming? I mean, it's the are you becoming? I mean, it's the plotline of every second Disney film. Uh plotline of every second Disney film. Uh plotline of every second Disney film. Uh it's it's such an important issue, but it's it's such an important issue, but it's it's such an important issue, but [snorts] I think we give less than than [snorts] I think we give less than than [snorts] I think we give less than than almost any other culture in history in almost any other culture in history in almost any other culture in history in terms of grounding people's identities. terms of grounding people's identities. terms of grounding people's identities. Your surname might be Smith, but you're Your surname might be Smith, but you're Your surname might be Smith, but you're not a Smith. You can be whatever job you not a Smith. You can be whatever job you not a Smith. You can be whatever job you want to be. You know, your surname is want to be. You know, your surname is want to be. You know, your surname is Baker, but you don't have to be a baker. Baker, but you don't have to be a baker. Baker, but you don't have to be a baker. You can be anything in the world. Um we You can be anything in the world. Um we You can be anything in the world. Um we we say that it's important, but we don't we say that it's important, but we don't we say that it's important, but we don't give anyone really anything to ground give anyone really anything to ground give anyone really anything to ground them. Um I think we've moved away from a them. Um I think we've moved away from a them. Um I think we've moved away from a sense of nationhood for for good reasons sense of nationhood for for good reasons sense of nationhood for for good reasons uh as well as bad. We're not as strongly uh as well as bad. We're not as strongly uh as well as bad. We're not as strongly nationally proud as we once were. We nationally proud as we once were. We nationally proud as we once were. We don't have a faith tradition. A lot of don't have a faith tradition. A lot of don't have a faith tradition. A lot of people don't have a faith um that gives people don't have a faith um that gives people don't have a faith um that gives them a sense of identity. So, what are them a sense of identity. So, what are them a sense of identity. So, what are you? Well, you know, you're you're a you? Well, you know, you're you're a you? Well, you know, you're you're a goth or you're a skater or you're goth or you're a skater or you're goth or you're a skater or you're someone that likes Japanese TV shows, someone that likes Japanese TV shows, someone that likes Japanese TV shows, but that there's nothing more durable but that there's nothing more durable but that there's nothing more durable than than that. So, I think on top of than than that. So, I think on top of than than that. So, I think on top of that, more often than not, we attach that, more often than not, we attach that, more often than not, we attach identity to competency.

identity to competency. identity to competency. Um you are what you can do. It's a very Um you are what you can do. It's a very Um you are what you can do. It's a very Marxist way of thinking about identity. Marxist way of thinking about identity. Marxist way of thinking about identity. Um it's also the way of thinking that um Um it's also the way of thinking that um Um it's also the way of thinking that um is expressed in the work of the is expressed in the work of the is expressed in the work of the Australian philosopher Peter Singer uh Australian philosopher Peter Singer uh Australian philosopher Peter Singer uh who's an atheist who's who's been very who's an atheist who's who's been very who's an atheist who's who's been very influential. Um and I'm sure you know influential. Um and I'm sure you know influential. Um and I'm sure you know him very deeply and know his work very him very deeply and know his work very him very deeply and know his work very deeply. Um, but it it attaches your your deeply. Um, but it it attaches your your deeply. Um, but it it attaches your your moral importance, your your sense of how moral importance, your your sense of how moral importance, your your sense of how important you are as a as a human being important you are as a as a human being important you are as a as a human being to really what you can do um and how to really what you can do um and how to really what you can do um and how conscious you are of what you're doing. conscious you are of what you're doing. conscious you are of what you're doing. And therefore, he's he's always been And therefore, he's he's always been And therefore, he's he's always been saying that humans aren't this kind of saying that humans aren't this kind of saying that humans aren't this kind of one unified one unified one unified block that that that different humans block that that that different humans block that that that different humans have different moral value and have different moral value and have different moral value and importance. That how old you are, how importance. That how old you are, how importance. That how old you are, how capable you are, how disabled you are, capable you are, how disabled you are, capable you are, how disabled you are, you you might not be very morally you you might not be very morally you you might not be very morally important. you might be less important important. you might be less important important. you might be less important than the than an animal um because you than the than an animal um because you than the than an animal um because you don't have high cognitive functions. don't have high cognitive functions. don't have high cognitive functions. He's always said that and I think that's He's always said that and I think that's He's always said that and I think that's been um a view held by a lot of elites, been um a view held by a lot of elites, been um a view held by a lot of elites, if you will, without them expressing it if you will, without them expressing it if you will, without them expressing it publicly that some people are more publicly that some people are more publicly that some people are more important than than others. Um now AI important than than others. Um now AI important than than others. Um now AI makes makes that even more troubling makes makes that even more troubling makes makes that even more troubling because AI is going to be more competent because AI is going to be more competent because AI is going to be more competent than us. It's going to be more than us. It's going to be more than us. It's going to be more intelligent than us. Um, does that mean intelligent than us. Um, does that mean intelligent than us. Um, does that mean it's way more morally important than we it's way more morally important than we it's way more morally important than we are? Are we like ants compared to this are? Are we like ants compared to this are? Are we like ants compared to this AI, which is the really morally AI, which is the really morally AI, which is the really morally important, really competent thing out important, really competent thing out important, really competent thing out there? I think there's all sorts of there? I think there's all sorts of there? I think there's all sorts of issues there, threats to our identity.

issues there, threats to our identity. issues there, threats to our identity. Um, and I would say it's not just Um, and I would say it's not just Um, and I would say it's not just abstract, isn't it? Because identity abstract, isn't it? Because identity abstract, isn't it? Because identity flows straight into anxiety. Identity flows straight into anxiety. Identity flows straight into anxiety. Identity flows into mental health. Identity flows flows into mental health. Identity flows flows into mental health. Identity flows into all sorts of really important um into all sorts of really important um into all sorts of really important um realities. Could you look this is realities. Could you look this is realities. Could you look this is slightly provocative. Would you agree slightly provocative. Would you agree slightly provocative. Would you agree with this that AI is actually in this with this that AI is actually in this with this that AI is actually in this sense really helping us because it's sense really helping us because it's sense really helping us because it's always been dangerous and misguided to always been dangerous and misguided to always been dangerous and misguided to ground our identity in our intelligence ground our identity in our intelligence ground our identity in our intelligence or our creativity. It's just that we've or our creativity. It's just that we've or our creativity. It's just that we've got away with it for centuries because got away with it for centuries because got away with it for centuries because we were the smartest species on the we were the smartest species on the we were the smartest species on the planet and there was no challenge to planet and there was no challenge to planet and there was no challenge to that narrative. But now AI comes along that narrative. But now AI comes along that narrative. But now AI comes along and says, "Well, if that's the way you and says, "Well, if that's the way you and says, "Well, if that's the way you find your value, then if something comes find your value, then if something comes find your value, then if something comes along more intelligent than you, you've along more intelligent than you, you've along more intelligent than you, you've got to demote yourself." And it's making got to demote yourself." And it's making got to demote yourself." And it's making us realize what has always been us realize what has always been us realize what has always been problematic, but we've been able to get problematic, but we've been able to get problematic, but we've been able to get away with for a long time. away with for a long time. away with for a long time. >> I think you're right. I think it brings >> I think you're right. I think it brings >> I think you're right. I think it brings the crisis to a head, doesn't it? And the crisis to a head, doesn't it? And the crisis to a head, doesn't it? And and and sometimes that's when we're and and sometimes that's when we're and and sometimes that's when we're forced to finally confront the thing forced to finally confront the thing forced to finally confront the thing that's been obvious for a very long that's been obvious for a very long that's been obvious for a very long time. um your tent slowly simmering but time. um your tent slowly simmering but time. um your tent slowly simmering but you think I don't need to put that fire you think I don't need to put that fire you think I don't need to put that fire out until finally it reaches the point out until finally it reaches the point out until finally it reaches the point [laughter] where everything's a flame [laughter] where everything's a flame [laughter] where everything's a flame and I think we are close to that point and I think we are close to that point and I think we are close to that point >> and and we've been here before this is >> and and we've been here before this is >> and and we've been here before this is the the irony of the situation isn't it the the irony of the situation isn't it the the irony of the situation isn't it especially for Christians that if you especially for Christians that if you especially for Christians that if you think back to the 19th century and this think back to the 19th century and this think back to the 19th century and this whole God of the gaps debate that that whole God of the gaps debate that that whole God of the gaps debate that that some Christians tried to locate God in

some Christians tried to locate God in some Christians tried to locate God in whatever bit of the world science hadn't whatever bit of the world science hadn't whatever bit of the world science hadn't yet described I in the gaps that science yet described I in the gaps that science yet described I in the gaps that science hadn't filled. And as the century hadn't filled. And as the century hadn't filled. And as the century progressed, those gaps got smaller and progressed, those gaps got smaller and progressed, those gaps got smaller and smaller. And so God got smaller and smaller. And so God got smaller and smaller. And so God got smaller and smaller. And the the idea was that God smaller. And the the idea was that God smaller. And the the idea was that God became increasingly irrelevant because became increasingly irrelevant because became increasingly irrelevant because science was explaining more. And and the science was explaining more. And and the science was explaining more. And and the problem was that was always a misguided problem was that was always a misguided problem was that was always a misguided way to think about God. He is not just way to think about God. He is not just way to think about God. He is not just in the gaps that science can't explain. in the gaps that science can't explain. in the gaps that science can't explain. And and we find ourselves now being And and we find ourselves now being And and we find ourselves now being tempted into a sort of humanity of the tempted into a sort of humanity of the tempted into a sort of humanity of the gaps approach where we say exactly as gaps approach where we say exactly as gaps approach where we say exactly as you were explaining a moment ago. Oh you were explaining a moment ago. Oh you were explaining a moment ago. Oh yeah, AI might be able to do XY Z, but yeah, AI might be able to do XY Z, but yeah, AI might be able to do XY Z, but it will never be creative. It will never it will never be creative. It will never it will never be creative. It will never write a set. It it will never produce write a set. It it will never produce write a set. It it will never produce great music. And then lo and behold, it great music. And then lo and behold, it great music. And then lo and behold, it does. And then we find ourselves does. And then we find ourselves does. And then we find ourselves squeezed in our humanity into those squeezed in our humanity into those squeezed in our humanity into those smaller and smaller crevices of of what smaller and smaller crevices of of what smaller and smaller crevices of of what AI can't do. And the the opportunity AI can't do. And the the opportunity AI can't do. And the the opportunity there rather than simply to feel there rather than simply to feel there rather than simply to feel squeezed by that is to say, well, hold squeezed by that is to say, well, hold squeezed by that is to say, well, hold on. Were we right in the first place to on. Were we right in the first place to on. Were we right in the first place to think that we are our intelligence or we think that we are our intelligence or we think that we are our intelligence or we are our creativity? Perhaps that was the are our creativity? Perhaps that was the are our creativity? Perhaps that was the wrong move that we took. And so I think wrong move that we took. And so I think wrong move that we took. And so I think this is a wonderful opportunity for all this is a wonderful opportunity for all this is a wonderful opportunity for all the pain that it's causing us as human the pain that it's causing us as human the pain that it's causing us as human beings to reflect on where we do beings to reflect on where we do beings to reflect on where we do actually get our identity from. And and actually get our identity from. And and actually get our identity from. And and I wonder if we could turn now to to I wonder if we could turn now to to I wonder if we could turn now to to where you think the the Bible where you think the the Bible where you think the the Bible hits in this debate. Um, I I'm asking

hits in this debate. Um, I I'm asking hits in this debate. Um, I I'm asking each guest on this show to to bring one each guest on this show to to bring one each guest on this show to to bring one particular Bible passage that's been a particular Bible passage that's been a particular Bible passage that's been a real help to you in thinking about AI. real help to you in thinking about AI. real help to you in thinking about AI. And Stephen, you've um nominated Genesis And Stephen, you've um nominated Genesis And Stephen, you've um nominated Genesis 1 uh 26-28. 1 uh 26-28. 1 uh 26-28. Could you just begin by refreshing our Could you just begin by refreshing our Could you just begin by refreshing our memories as to what what are the main memories as to what what are the main memories as to what what are the main points of that passage? And then I'd points of that passage? And then I'd points of that passage? And then I'd love to hear how you think that speaks love to hear how you think that speaks love to hear how you think that speaks into these ideas of value and identity into these ideas of value and identity into these ideas of value and identity and worth for human beings. and worth for human beings. and worth for human beings. >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Genesis 1 and >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Genesis 1 and >> Yeah, absolutely. Um, so Genesis 1 and the start of Genesis 2 are so helpful in the start of Genesis 2 are so helpful in the start of Genesis 2 are so helpful in helping us think about identity. Um, and helping us think about identity. Um, and helping us think about identity. Um, and I'll just pick up on one sentence you I'll just pick up on one sentence you I'll just pick up on one sentence you you used there. You said, um, we tend to you used there. You said, um, we tend to you used there. You said, um, we tend to say AI will never do X. Um, I think say AI will never do X. Um, I think say AI will never do X. Um, I think that's absolutely the the tendency that that's absolutely the the tendency that that's absolutely the the tendency that we're at risk of here. We want to put AI we're at risk of here. We want to put AI we're at risk of here. We want to put AI in in a in a sealed box of limited in in a in a sealed box of limited in in a in a sealed box of limited competency where it can't threaten us competency where it can't threaten us competency where it can't threaten us and it'll [snorts] never do it'll never and it'll [snorts] never do it'll never and it'll [snorts] never do it'll never understand commas or grammar or sarcasm understand commas or grammar or sarcasm understand commas or grammar or sarcasm or tone or it'll never make images.

or tone or it'll never make images. or tone or it'll never make images. It'll never do maths. And of course, AI It'll never do maths. And of course, AI It'll never do maths. And of course, AI is just constantly bursting out of that is just constantly bursting out of that is just constantly bursting out of that box and threatening our identity. So, we box and threatening our identity. So, we box and threatening our identity. So, we need a different way to think about need a different way to think about need a different way to think about identity. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are identity. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are identity. Genesis 1 and Genesis 2 are our helps here. So, the first um page of our helps here. So, the first um page of our helps here. So, the first um page of the Bible, you've got the creation of the Bible, you've got the creation of the Bible, you've got the creation of the of the cosmos, the world. you've got the of the cosmos, the world. you've got the of the cosmos, the world. you've got God laying out the the different aspects God laying out the the different aspects God laying out the the different aspects of his good creation. Um and and then it of his good creation. Um and and then it of his good creation. Um and and then it culminates um in verse 26 when God says culminates um in verse 26 when God says culminates um in verse 26 when God says um let us make man in our image after um let us make man in our image after um let us make man in our image after our likeness. Um and he says, "Let them our likeness. Um and he says, "Let them our likeness. Um and he says, "Let them have dominion over the fish of the sea have dominion over the fish of the sea have dominion over the fish of the sea and the birds of the heavens and over and the birds of the heavens and over and the birds of the heavens and over the livestock and all the earth and the livestock and all the earth and the livestock and all the earth and every creeping thing that creeps on the every creeping thing that creeps on the every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." Uh and then it says, "So God earth." Uh and then it says, "So God earth." Uh and then it says, "So God created man um or humanity in his own created man um or humanity in his own created man um or humanity in his own image. In the image of God he created image. In the image of God he created image. In the image of God he created him male and female he created them." Um him male and female he created them." Um him male and female he created them." Um there's this offering of identity from there's this offering of identity from there's this offering of identity from the first page of the Bible. Um some the first page of the Bible. Um some the first page of the Bible. Um some people are desperately striving to try people are desperately striving to try people are desperately striving to try and find who am I? What what's there and find who am I? What what's there and find who am I? What what's there from the creation of the world? Your from the creation of the world? Your from the creation of the world? Your identity existed before you existed.

identity existed before you existed. identity existed before you existed. You've got this wonderful um identity You've got this wonderful um identity You've got this wonderful um identity given by by God. firstly that that that given by by God. firstly that that that given by by God. firstly that that that we're in some sense we're in his image we're in some sense we're in his image we're in some sense we're in his image and that's the thing to explore, but and that's the thing to explore, but and that's the thing to explore, but we've also got this vocation that runs we've also got this vocation that runs we've also got this vocation that runs with that that we're we're given um a with that that we're we're given um a with that that we're we're given um a role to kind of to to bring order to role to kind of to to bring order to role to kind of to to bring order to this world to have dominion over the this world to have dominion over the this world to have dominion over the place. Um and it and it says God said to place. Um and it and it says God said to place. Um and it and it says God said to them, be fruitful and multiply and fill them, be fruitful and multiply and fill them, be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have the earth and subdue it and have the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fishes of the sea and dominion over the fishes of the sea and dominion over the fishes of the sea and the birds of the heavens and every the birds of the heavens and every the birds of the heavens and every living thing that moves on the earth. I living thing that moves on the earth. I living thing that moves on the earth. I guess the first kind of big point is the guess the first kind of big point is the guess the first kind of big point is the direction of identity. Um, it's really direction of identity. Um, it's really direction of identity. Um, it's really simple. It It's not us trying to simple. It It's not us trying to simple. It It's not us trying to establish an identity to kind of work it establish an identity to kind of work it establish an identity to kind of work it out and figure out who we are. It's it's out and figure out who we are. It's it's out and figure out who we are. It's it's a gift. It's it it's coming from above a gift. It's it it's coming from above a gift. It's it it's coming from above down to us um as an offering of God by down to us um as an offering of God by down to us um as an offering of God by grace. It's such a powerful contrast, grace. It's such a powerful contrast, grace. It's such a powerful contrast, isn't it? uh I don't have to produce or isn't it? uh I don't have to produce or isn't it? uh I don't have to produce or perform my identity perform my identity perform my identity and therefore reaffirm it every day, and therefore reaffirm it every day, and therefore reaffirm it every day, every hour in order for it to be real.

every hour in order for it to be real. every hour in order for it to be real. Uh it is a gift that I receive. Uh it is a gift that I receive. Uh it is a gift that I receive. I'd love to just press on a couple of I'd love to just press on a couple of I'd love to just press on a couple of points in relation to that. So you you points in relation to that. So you you points in relation to that. So you you were saying that we're given this were saying that we're given this were saying that we're given this commission. You have dominion. Well, commission. You have dominion. Well, commission. You have dominion. Well, couldn't someone say in the same way couldn't someone say in the same way couldn't someone say in the same way that AI is probably becoming more that AI is probably becoming more that AI is probably becoming more intelligent and creative than us that AI intelligent and creative than us that AI intelligent and creative than us that AI might be better at having dominion than might be better at having dominion than might be better at having dominion than us? And and where would that leave us in us? And and where would that leave us in us? And and where would that leave us in terms of the image of God? We were never terms of the image of God? We were never terms of the image of God? We were never selected for the role because we were selected for the role because we were selected for the role because we were the best. God didn't look at all the the best. God didn't look at all the the best. God didn't look at all the angels and kind, oh well, he's got a angels and kind, oh well, he's got a angels and kind, oh well, he's got a good CV. He's he's quite good at good CV. He's he's quite good at good CV. He's he's quite good at shrubbery, but let's pick the humans. shrubbery, but let's pick the humans. shrubbery, but let's pick the humans. They'll do a better. They know how to They'll do a better. They know how to They'll do a better. They know how to bring. No, no, that's not how it works. bring. No, no, that's not how it works. bring. No, no, that's not how it works. And in fact, this is um I think the deep And in fact, this is um I think the deep And in fact, this is um I think the deep pattern of the Bible, a pattern that pattern of the Bible, a pattern that pattern of the Bible, a pattern that Paul, I think, hints at in in the fourth Paul, I think, hints at in in the fourth Paul, I think, hints at in in the fourth chapter of Galatians, that God isn't chapter of Galatians, that God isn't chapter of Galatians, that God isn't choosing the the most noteworthy things. choosing the the most noteworthy things. choosing the the most noteworthy things. Um that his way is the spiritual way and Um that his way is the spiritual way and Um that his way is the spiritual way and the supernatural way, that he wants to the supernatural way, that he wants to the supernatural way, that he wants to work through weak objects that do work through weak objects that do work through weak objects that do incredible things because of his his incredible things because of his his incredible things because of his his grace to them. Um, [clears throat] I grace to them. Um, [clears throat] I grace to them. Um, [clears throat] I think you you see throughout the Bible think you you see throughout the Bible think you you see throughout the Bible that God chooses Israel not because that God chooses Israel not because that God chooses Israel not because they're great, but in fact because they're great, but in fact because they're great, but in fact because they're not great. Um, he he he chooses they're not great. Um, he he he chooses they're not great. Um, he he he chooses David instead of Saul. Um, he doesn't David instead of Saul. Um, he doesn't David instead of Saul. Um, he doesn't choose Rome, Persia, Greece. He he choose Rome, Persia, Greece. He he choose Rome, Persia, Greece. He he chooses Israel. He chooses Rachel. He chooses Israel. He chooses Rachel. He chooses Israel. He chooses Rachel. He chooses Hannah. Um, he chooses Nazareth.

chooses Hannah. Um, he chooses Nazareth. chooses Hannah. Um, he chooses Nazareth. He chooses the disciples. Um, he's not He chooses the disciples. Um, he's not He chooses the disciples. Um, he's not interested in the Pharisees and he interested in the Pharisees and he interested in the Pharisees and he chooses grace. He's not interested in chooses grace. He's not interested in chooses grace. He's not interested in works. So, um, works. So, um, works. So, um, I I think this is this this common I I think this is this this common I I think this is this this common thread of God wanting to work through thread of God wanting to work through thread of God wanting to work through people even though their competencies people even though their competencies people even though their competencies aren't the most amazing thing in the aren't the most amazing thing in the aren't the most amazing thing in the world. And I'm sure some people are world. And I'm sure some people are world. And I'm sure some people are listening and they're thinking my listening and they're thinking my listening and they're thinking my competencies are not the greatest thing competencies are not the greatest thing competencies are not the greatest thing in the world. I don't think I'm the in the world. I don't think I'm the in the world. I don't think I'm the world, you know, I can win an world, you know, I can win an world, you know, I can win an international mass Olympiad medal. Um, international mass Olympiad medal. Um, international mass Olympiad medal. Um, well, that's all right cuz God wants to well, that's all right cuz God wants to well, that's all right cuz God wants to work through you to achieve his good work through you to achieve his good work through you to achieve his good purposes in the world. Um perhaps you purposes in the world. Um perhaps you purposes in the world. Um perhaps you see this most um clearly in the Bible in see this most um clearly in the Bible in see this most um clearly in the Bible in the contrast between uh Abraham and the the contrast between uh Abraham and the the contrast between uh Abraham and the Tower of Babel. Uh in Genesis 11:4, the Tower of Babel. Uh in Genesis 11:4, the Tower of Babel. Uh in Genesis 11:4, the people say um let us make a name for people say um let us make a name for people say um let us make a name for ourselves. So they get out there with ourselves. So they get out there with ourselves. So they get out there with their big construction project and God their big construction project and God their big construction project and God just knocks the tower down, not just knocks the tower down, not just knocks the tower down, not interested. A chapter later in Genesis interested. A chapter later in Genesis interested. A chapter later in Genesis 12:2, God says to Abraham, I will make 12:2, God says to Abraham, I will make 12:2, God says to Abraham, I will make of you a great nation. Again, it's that of you a great nation. Again, it's that of you a great nation. Again, it's that direction thing. God saying to Abraham, direction thing. God saying to Abraham, direction thing. God saying to Abraham, "I'm going to give you an identity."

"I'm going to give you an identity." "I'm going to give you an identity." >> And so, we've got two things going on, >> And so, we've got two things going on, >> And so, we've got two things going on, haven't we? We we've got the the huge haven't we? We we've got the the huge haven't we? We we've got the the huge contrast between a a modern world that's contrast between a a modern world that's contrast between a a modern world that's saying your identity is an artifact. saying your identity is an artifact. saying your identity is an artifact. It's what you construct. And therefore, It's what you construct. And therefore, It's what you construct. And therefore, you've got to construct it well, and you've got to construct it well, and you've got to construct it well, and you've got to keep repairing it. And the you've got to keep repairing it. And the you've got to keep repairing it. And the Bible that says your identity is is a Bible that says your identity is is a Bible that says your identity is is a gift given to you. It's something you're gift given to you. It's something you're gift given to you. It's something you're invited into. It's it's a host welcoming invited into. It's it's a host welcoming invited into. It's it's a host welcoming you into their world. [gasps and sighs] you into their world. [gasps and sighs] you into their world. [gasps and sighs] And we've also got this difference And we've also got this difference And we've also got this difference between my identity is something that is between my identity is something that is between my identity is something that is solely located inside me. We will make a solely located inside me. We will make a solely located inside me. We will make a name for ourselves with Babel. It's my name for ourselves with Babel. It's my name for ourselves with Babel. It's my project. And my identity as something project. And my identity as something project. And my identity as something that's actually relational. You know, that's actually relational. You know, that's actually relational. You know, when God says I will make your name when God says I will make your name when God says I will make your name great, it's not I will give you this great, it's not I will give you this great, it's not I will give you this thing that is your sole possession. is thing that is your sole possession. is thing that is your sole possession. is you will know yourself in relationship you will know yourself in relationship you will know yourself in relationship to me. So the the Christian view, the to me. So the the Christian view, the to me. So the the Christian view, the biblical view is that our finding our biblical view is that our finding our biblical view is that our finding our identity always draws us out of identity always draws us out of identity always draws us out of ourselves into rich loving relationships ourselves into rich loving relationships ourselves into rich loving relationships primarily with God and with other primarily with God and with other primarily with God and with other people. And I think that that's so people. And I think that that's so people. And I think that that's so refreshing in a society where we're refreshing in a society where we're refreshing in a society where we're being forced into ourselves all the time being forced into ourselves all the time being forced into ourselves all the time and where that our default position in and where that our default position in and where that our default position in relation to AI is is that of relation to AI is is that of relation to AI is is that of competition. Am I going to win against competition. Am I going to win against competition. Am I going to win against this machine in terms of you know the this machine in terms of you know the this machine in terms of you know the most valuable species on the planet or most valuable species on the planet or most valuable species on the planet or whatever. Um but it the Bible is whatever. Um but it the Bible is whatever. Um but it the Bible is encouraging us to think about who we are

encouraging us to think about who we are encouraging us to think about who we are not as a zero someum competition with not as a zero someum competition with not as a zero someum competition with other people or even with other species. other people or even with other species. other people or even with other species. uh but as as more of a you know this uh but as as more of a you know this uh but as as more of a you know this wonderful biblical idea of shalom this wonderful biblical idea of shalom this wonderful biblical idea of shalom this this web of interconnected relationships this web of interconnected relationships this web of interconnected relationships working uh for good together and and I working uh for good together and and I working uh for good together and and I think that's where the second page of think that's where the second page of think that's where the second page of the Bible if you will is really is the Bible if you will is really is the Bible if you will is really is really helpful um that um we we have um really helpful um that um we we have um really helpful um that um we we have um relationships we have relational relationships we have relational relationships we have relational capabilities that AI cannot have um I'd capabilities that AI cannot have um I'd capabilities that AI cannot have um I'd go to Genesis 2 verse 7 um to make this go to Genesis 2 verse 7 um to make this go to Genesis 2 verse 7 um to make this point in Genesis 2:7 is an account of point in Genesis 2:7 is an account of point in Genesis 2:7 is an account of the creation of the first human beings. the creation of the first human beings. the creation of the first human beings. Uh and it says, "Then the Lord God Uh and it says, "Then the Lord God Uh and it says, "Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground formed the man of dust from the ground formed the man of dust from the ground uh and breathed into his nostrils the uh and breathed into his nostrils the uh and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and the man became uh a breath of life and the man became uh a breath of life and the man became uh a living creature. And further down, God living creature. And further down, God living creature. And further down, God makes Eve." But um if if you look at it, makes Eve." But um if if you look at it, makes Eve." But um if if you look at it, the the human the man is made out of um the the human the man is made out of um the the human the man is made out of um two things, not just one. Um he's made two things, not just one. Um he's made two things, not just one. Um he's made out of the ground, the the dirt, the out of the ground, the the dirt, the out of the ground, the the dirt, the adharma, but that's not enough to give a adharma, but that's not enough to give a adharma, but that's not enough to give a relational living being. Um, God has to relational living being. Um, God has to relational living being. Um, God has to breathe his spirit, his ruach into the breathe his spirit, his ruach into the breathe his spirit, his ruach into the into the dirt man, and then the dirt man into the dirt man, and then the dirt man into the dirt man, and then the dirt man comes to life and becomes Adam. Um, and comes to life and becomes Adam. Um, and comes to life and becomes Adam. Um, and and so I think we're made out of two and so I think we're made out of two and so I think we're made out of two things, not just one. Uh, I think we are things, not just one. Uh, I think we are things, not just one. Uh, I think we are made out of something physical. There's made out of something physical. There's made out of something physical. There's there's some dirt in us, you know, if there's some dirt in us, you know, if there's some dirt in us, you know, if you will. We've got a biological system, you will. We've got a biological system, you will. We've got a biological system, but that that's not enough. Um, we've but that that's not enough. Um, we've but that that's not enough. Um, we've also got God's spirit animating us, also got God's spirit animating us, also got God's spirit animating us, breathed breathed into us. And I think breathed breathed into us. And I think breathed breathed into us. And I think that AI is just the former. um you know

that AI is just the former. um you know that AI is just the former. um you know it's it's it's um rare earths if you it's it's it's um rare earths if you it's it's it's um rare earths if you will. It's dirt of a sort that's been will. It's dirt of a sort that's been will. It's dirt of a sort that's been very carefully and intricately arranged very carefully and intricately arranged very carefully and intricately arranged in order to do incredibly impressive and in order to do incredibly impressive and in order to do incredibly impressive and helpful and helpful things. Um but it's helpful and helpful things. Um but it's helpful and helpful things. Um but it's not a living being. It's it doesn't have not a living being. It's it doesn't have not a living being. It's it doesn't have the spirit of God in it. And so there's the spirit of God in it. And so there's the spirit of God in it. And so there's always this category difference between always this category difference between always this category difference between us and it. Um I don't think it goes into us and it. Um I don't think it goes into us and it. Um I don't think it goes into the category of being a a person cuz I the category of being a a person cuz I the category of being a a person cuz I think that's a god-given category. I think that's a god-given category. I think that's a god-given category. I think what it is is an incredibly think what it is is an incredibly think what it is is an incredibly intelligent and intricate object. Um intelligent and intricate object. Um intelligent and intricate object. Um we've we've figured out how to arrange we've we've figured out how to arrange we've we've figured out how to arrange dirt in such a way that it can write dirt in such a way that it can write dirt in such a way that it can write poetry. That's incredible. That's poetry. That's incredible. That's poetry. That's incredible. That's fantastic. But don't worry cuz it's not fantastic. But don't worry cuz it's not fantastic. But don't worry cuz it's not a person. Your robo vacuum is never a person. Your robo vacuum is never a person. Your robo vacuum is never really going to threaten who you are in really going to threaten who you are in really going to threaten who you are in relationship to God and the world, but relationship to God and the world, but relationship to God and the world, but it's a great tool. it's a great tool. it's a great tool. >> I want to play devil's advocate for a >> I want to play devil's advocate for a >> I want to play devil's advocate for a moment because moment because moment because a while ago you were saying we have all a while ago you were saying we have all a while ago you were saying we have all these AI will never statements and these AI will never statements and these AI will never statements and we should be very wary about using them.

we should be very wary about using them. we should be very wary about using them. And I've just heard you to say AI will And I've just heard you to say AI will And I've just heard you to say AI will never be anything but dirt. So why is never be anything but dirt. So why is never be anything but dirt. So why is this statement different to all the this statement different to all the this statement different to all the others? Why why is it not just one more others? Why why is it not just one more others? Why why is it not just one more AI will never be intelligent, AI will AI will never be intelligent, AI will AI will never be intelligent, AI will never be creative? never be creative? never be creative? >> Yeah, I I am very wary of sentences that >> Yeah, I I am very wary of sentences that >> Yeah, I I am very wary of sentences that begin with AI will never do X, begin with AI will never do X, begin with AI will never do X, but I'm okay with sentences that begin but I'm okay with sentences that begin but I'm okay with sentences that begin with AI will never be X. with AI will never be X. with AI will never be X. The difference is um the difference The difference is um the difference The difference is um the difference between a performance and and an between a performance and and an between a performance and and an identity anal ontology if you want to identity anal ontology if you want to identity anal ontology if you want to throw in a really complex work. But um throw in a really complex work. But um throw in a really complex work. But um it's not a person in in my view. God it's not a person in in my view. God it's not a person in in my view. God bestows that to an individual. The bestows that to an individual. The bestows that to an individual. The internal experiential reality of being a internal experiential reality of being a internal experiential reality of being a person I think is very different uh to person I think is very different uh to person I think is very different uh to the internal experiential reality um of the internal experiential reality um of the internal experiential reality um of millions of lines of matric matrix millions of lines of matric matrix millions of lines of matric matrix algebra. Now um there is no internal algebra. Now um there is no internal algebra. Now um there is no internal experiential reality to what an AI is.

experiential reality to what an AI is. experiential reality to what an AI is. There's nothing deeply going in there. There's nothing deeply going in there. There's nothing deeply going in there. There isn't a single unified There isn't a single unified There isn't a single unified consciousness behind the AI. There's a consciousness behind the AI. There's a consciousness behind the AI. There's a lot of mathematics. Um so for for me AI lot of mathematics. Um so for for me AI lot of mathematics. Um so for for me AI will never be what we are but it may will never be what we are but it may will never be what we are but it may well do well do well do um at least outwardly a lot of the um at least outwardly a lot of the um at least outwardly a lot of the things we can do. So, I I think that AI things we can do. So, I I think that AI things we can do. So, I I think that AI is very good at being sympathetic and is very good at being sympathetic and is very good at being sympathetic and empathetic or at least very good at empathetic or at least very good at empathetic or at least very good at producing sentences that look producing sentences that look producing sentences that look sympathetic and empathetic, but I don't sympathetic and empathetic, but I don't sympathetic and empathetic, but I don't think it's feeling anything towards me. think it's feeling anything towards me. think it's feeling anything towards me. Um, and I would jump to the point of Um, and I would jump to the point of Um, and I would jump to the point of saying I don't think it ever will. Now, saying I don't think it ever will. Now, saying I don't think it ever will. Now, maybe that will be the point where maybe that will be the point where maybe that will be the point where someone will grab me in 20 years and go, someone will grab me in 20 years and go, someone will grab me in 20 years and go, Steve, you were, you know, you were Steve, you were, you know, you were Steve, you were, you know, you were wrong about this, but I don't see it wrong about this, but I don't see it wrong about this, but I don't see it because I think I'm making a different because I think I'm making a different because I think I'm making a different kind of claim. And I think the key kind of claim. And I think the key kind of claim. And I think the key difference again is between gift and difference again is between gift and difference again is between gift and grasping, isn't it? In all of these grasping, isn't it? In all of these grasping, isn't it? In all of these things, like being intelligent is things, like being intelligent is things, like being intelligent is something that I perform that I that I something that I perform that I that I something that I perform that I that I can manufacture and and and can be can manufacture and and and can be can manufacture and and and can be measured. But if I didn't manufacture my measured. But if I didn't manufacture my measured. But if I didn't manufacture my identity to begin with, if it was given identity to begin with, if it was given identity to begin with, if it was given to me, then it is not up to me to say to me, then it is not up to me to say to me, then it is not up to me to say whether something else has it or not.

whether something else has it or not. whether something else has it or not. It's it's the giver. is their It's it's the giver. is their It's it's the giver. is their prerogative. So it's it's up to God prerogative. So it's it's up to God prerogative. So it's it's up to God >> whether AI, you know, is ever anything >> whether AI, you know, is ever anything >> whether AI, you know, is ever anything more than than dirt, as you put it. And more than than dirt, as you put it. And more than than dirt, as you put it. And I think that's a huge category I think that's a huge category I think that's a huge category difference. It's not, as you say, difference. It's not, as you say, difference. It's not, as you say, something it can perform because my something it can perform because my something it can perform because my identity as a human is not something I identity as a human is not something I identity as a human is not something I can perform. You know, if I had a can perform. You know, if I had a can perform. You know, if I had a serious injury that left me unable to serious injury that left me unable to serious injury that left me unable to speak and unable to to think and to move speak and unable to to think and to move speak and unable to to think and to move my limbs for many ways of understanding my limbs for many ways of understanding my limbs for many ways of understanding human beings, that would at least put me human beings, that would at least put me human beings, that would at least put me on the borderline of humanity. There on the borderline of humanity. There on the borderline of humanity. There would it would raise a question as to would it would raise a question as to would it would raise a question as to whether I'm fully human at that point. whether I'm fully human at that point. whether I'm fully human at that point. But not for the Christian But not for the Christian But not for the Christian >> because I didn't get it from any of >> because I didn't get it from any of >> because I didn't get it from any of those things to begin with. And I think those things to begin with. And I think those things to begin with. And I think that's a very different way of thinking that's a very different way of thinking that's a very different way of thinking about what the threshold of humanity about what the threshold of humanity about what the threshold of humanity would be for AI because it completely would be for AI because it completely would be for AI because it completely decouples it from any wonderful sort of decouples it from any wonderful sort of decouples it from any wonderful sort of calculations that AI can perform. the um calculations that AI can perform. the um calculations that AI can perform. the um you know it's a side point but um in Tom you know it's a side point but um in Tom you know it's a side point but um in Tom Holland in his brilliant book Dominion Holland in his brilliant book Dominion Holland in his brilliant book Dominion um just points out the extent to which um just points out the extent to which um just points out the extent to which the Nazi party hated this whole way of the Nazi party hated this whole way of the Nazi party hated this whole way of thinking that you're that you're thinking that you're that you're thinking that you're that you're espousing um this radical equality of espousing um this radical equality of espousing um this radical equality of human beings. They absolutely hated it.

human beings. They absolutely hated it. human beings. They absolutely hated it. Um and and they said one Nazi party Um and and they said one Nazi party Um and and they said one Nazi party document said you know it's it's the Jew document said you know it's it's the Jew document said you know it's it's the Jew Paul who must be considered the father Paul who must be considered the father Paul who must be considered the father of all this equality nonsense. um as he of all this equality nonsense. um as he of all this equality nonsense. um as he in a very significant way established in a very significant way established in a very significant way established the principles of the destruction of a the principles of the destruction of a the principles of the destruction of a worldview based on blood. And they worldview based on blood. And they worldview based on blood. And they wanted a worldview based on blood in wanted a worldview based on blood in wanted a worldview based on blood in which different races and different which different races and different which different races and different individuals uh were were fighting in a individuals uh were were fighting in a individuals uh were were fighting in a in a in a battle for survival um so that in a in a battle for survival um so that in a in a battle for survival um so that only the best would would continue and only the best would would continue and only the best would would continue and have and have value. Um and and I think have and have value. Um and and I think have and have value. Um and and I think Tom Holland says that gen that Galatians Tom Holland says that gen that Galatians Tom Holland says that gen that Galatians 3:28 is is where Christians came up with 3:28 is is where Christians came up with 3:28 is is where Christians came up with it. That there's neither Jew um nor it. That there's neither Jew um nor it. That there's neither Jew um nor Greek um slave nor free man nor woman. Greek um slave nor free man nor woman. Greek um slave nor free man nor woman. we're all one in Christ Jesus. But I we're all one in Christ Jesus. But I we're all one in Christ Jesus. But I think as we've seen, uh, this notion think as we've seen, uh, this notion think as we've seen, uh, this notion goes right back to the first page of the goes right back to the first page of the goes right back to the first page of the Bible that that people do have this this Bible that that people do have this this Bible that that people do have this this God-given value regardless of their cap God-given value regardless of their cap God-given value regardless of their cap capacity and and competency. Yeah. And capacity and and competency. Yeah. And capacity and and competency. Yeah. And therefore I think as Christians therefore I think as Christians therefore I think as Christians as the age of AI increasingly sort of as the age of AI increasingly sort of as the age of AI increasingly sort of engulfs us and as AI becomes more and engulfs us and as AI becomes more and engulfs us and as AI becomes more and more competent, more competent, more competent, one of the things perhaps that we can one of the things perhaps that we can one of the things perhaps that we can say to the modern world is look that say to the modern world is look that say to the modern world is look that that there are two worlds in which you that there are two worlds in which you that there are two worlds in which you can live in the age of AI.

can live in the age of AI. can live in the age of AI. There's the world in which you are your There's the world in which you are your There's the world in which you are your performance, you are your metrics, you performance, you are your metrics, you performance, you are your metrics, you are your intelligence. are your intelligence. are your intelligence. Good luck living in that world today Good luck living in that world today Good luck living in that world today because AI is coming for you. It is because AI is coming for you. It is because AI is coming for you. It is going to outthink you and out create going to outthink you and out create going to outthink you and out create you. And if that's what you build your you. And if that's what you build your you. And if that's what you build your identity on, it's not looking good for identity on, it's not looking good for identity on, it's not looking good for you. But let me invite you into another you. But let me invite you into another you. But let me invite you into another world where you aren't what you think or world where you aren't what you think or world where you aren't what you think or what you create or even what you produce what you create or even what you produce what you create or even what you produce relationally. Uh but your identity is a relationally. Uh but your identity is a relationally. Uh but your identity is a wonderful gift bestowed on you not wonderful gift bestowed on you not wonderful gift bestowed on you not because you were the greatest uh but because you were the greatest uh but because you were the greatest uh but because the greatest God has loved you. because the greatest God has loved you. because the greatest God has loved you. And that is so much more of a robust And that is so much more of a robust And that is so much more of a robust foundation in which to enjoy and thrive foundation in which to enjoy and thrive foundation in which to enjoy and thrive in an age of AI uh than that first in an age of AI uh than that first in an age of AI uh than that first flimsy sort of paper thin view of who we flimsy sort of paper thin view of who we flimsy sort of paper thin view of who we are. Um, and I think that's probably one are. Um, and I think that's probably one are. Um, and I think that's probably one of the reasons why AI is such a an of the reasons why AI is such a an of the reasons why AI is such a an exciting moment for Christians because exciting moment for Christians because exciting moment for Christians because the the biblical view of who we are does the the biblical view of who we are does the the biblical view of who we are does stand up incredibly robustly in this stand up incredibly robustly in this stand up incredibly robustly in this world and and reveals itself to be world and and reveals itself to be world and and reveals itself to be healthy both for individuals and more healthy both for individuals and more healthy both for individuals and more broadly in society. in a way that other broadly in society. in a way that other broadly in society. in a way that other modern views of humanity are at the modern views of humanity are at the modern views of humanity are at the moment where they're really stumbling moment where they're really stumbling moment where they're really stumbling and failing and raising all sorts of and failing and raising all sorts of and failing and raising all sorts of questions about well

questions about well questions about well where does that leave human beings? where does that leave human beings? where does that leave human beings? >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a great >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a great >> Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there's a great there's a great opportunity there for there's a great opportunity there for there's a great opportunity there for Christians just to to say what we've Christians just to to say what we've Christians just to to say what we've always what we've always believed. I always what we've always believed. I always what we've always believed. I wonder if we could move now from wonder if we could move now from wonder if we could move now from identity to identity to identity to the question of ease and comfort and and the question of ease and comfort and and the question of ease and comfort and and the way that AI the way that AI the way that AI is doing a lot of the busy work and a is doing a lot of the busy work and a is doing a lot of the busy work and a lot of the other tasks that lot of the other tasks that lot of the other tasks that traditionally have occupied a lot of our traditionally have occupied a lot of our traditionally have occupied a lot of our days. I want to come at it through a days. I want to come at it through a days. I want to come at it through a really interesting thought experiment really interesting thought experiment really interesting thought experiment from a philosopher called Robert Nosik. from a philosopher called Robert Nosik. from a philosopher called Robert Nosik. He's got this idea of an experience He's got this idea of an experience He's got this idea of an experience machine. And he says, "Imagine a machine machine. And he says, "Imagine a machine machine. And he says, "Imagine a machine that could give you a simulated life of that could give you a simulated life of that could give you a simulated life of constant happiness and zero pain. Ju constant happiness and zero pain. Ju constant happiness and zero pain. Ju just the experience of those things. Not just the experience of those things. Not just the experience of those things. Not the objective reality, but everything in the objective reality, but everything in the objective reality, but everything in your subjective experience would would your subjective experience would would your subjective experience would would shout complete happiness." shout complete happiness." shout complete happiness." Now, he argued that deep down humans Now, he argued that deep down humans Now, he argued that deep down humans would actually reject that because we would actually reject that because we would actually reject that because we value being someone real over just, you value being someone real over just, you value being someone real over just, you know, feeling good about life.

know, feeling good about life. know, feeling good about life. But I wonder whether in the current AI But I wonder whether in the current AI But I wonder whether in the current AI landscape that that refusal of the landscape that that refusal of the landscape that that refusal of the experience machine is is getting a experience machine is is getting a experience machine is is getting a little bit harder to maintain. Um there little bit harder to maintain. Um there little bit harder to maintain. Um there there's a recent book um by a leading AI there's a recent book um by a leading AI there's a recent book um by a leading AI thinker Nick Bostonram where he says we thinker Nick Bostonram where he says we thinker Nick Bostonram where he says we we're predicting that this sort of deep we're predicting that this sort of deep we're predicting that this sort of deep utopia where AI solves all of our human utopia where AI solves all of our human utopia where AI solves all of our human problems and it removes all the need for problems and it removes all the need for problems and it removes all the need for struggle from our lives. [gasps] struggle from our lives. [gasps] struggle from our lives. [gasps] I want to bring this down to earth in in I want to bring this down to earth in in I want to bring this down to earth in in the life of you know a a busy pastor say the life of you know a a busy pastor say the life of you know a a busy pastor say or an exhausted parent for whom the the or an exhausted parent for whom the the or an exhausted parent for whom the the efficiency that AI brings is just efficiency that AI brings is just efficiency that AI brings is just incredibly seductive isn't it? you know, incredibly seductive isn't it? you know, incredibly seductive isn't it? you know, we we want AI to write the sermon, to we we want AI to write the sermon, to we we want AI to write the sermon, to organize the roster, to invent the organize the roster, to invent the organize the roster, to invent the bedtime story, and that saves us from a bedtime story, and that saves us from a bedtime story, and that saves us from a lot of pain and struggle and tiredness. lot of pain and struggle and tiredness. lot of pain and struggle and tiredness. And [snorts] And [snorts] And [snorts] I I'd love you, Steven, to make the case I I'd love you, Steven, to make the case I I'd love you, Steven, to make the case that that path of least resistance might that that path of least resistance might that that path of least resistance might not always be the best path for a human not always be the best path for a human not always be the best path for a human to follow. I if I let AI handle the to follow. I if I let AI handle the to follow. I if I let AI handle the drudgery, you know, some people would drudgery, you know, some people would drudgery, you know, some people would say, well, look, I'm just being say, well, look, I'm just being say, well, look, I'm just being efficient and it's just like using a efficient and it's just like using a efficient and it's just like using a dishwasher. It's just like using a dishwasher. It's just like using a dishwasher. It's just like using a vacuum cleaner. I'm getting things done.

vacuum cleaner. I'm getting things done. vacuum cleaner. I'm getting things done. [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] How would you respond to that sort of How would you respond to that sort of How would you respond to that sort of view? Well, we all live in an experience view? Well, we all live in an experience view? Well, we all live in an experience machine. Um I think that's what Romans machine. Um I think that's what Romans machine. Um I think that's what Romans chapter 1 says that we are all um chapter 1 says that we are all um chapter 1 says that we are all um suppressing the the most important suppressing the the most important suppressing the the most important truths in our world all the time in a truths in our world all the time in a truths in our world all the time in a sense because it makes things a little sense because it makes things a little sense because it makes things a little bit easier for us as sinful people not bit easier for us as sinful people not bit easier for us as sinful people not to face this this this God of to face this this this God of to face this this this God of righteousness. So we suppress the truth righteousness. So we suppress the truth righteousness. So we suppress the truth um and um and go on with our lives and um and um and go on with our lives and um and um and go on with our lives and we eat and we drink and we're merry. So we eat and we drink and we're merry. So we eat and we drink and we're merry. So in a sense that that is an experience in a sense that that is an experience in a sense that that is an experience machine, isn't it? That we're all kind machine, isn't it? That we're all kind machine, isn't it? That we're all kind of living in until we come to God and of living in until we come to God and of living in until we come to God and accept the reality. Um, of course your accept the reality. Um, of course your accept the reality. Um, of course your mind mind goes to the the the great film mind mind goes to the the the great film mind mind goes to the the the great film filmed in Sydney, the Matrix. Um, and filmed in Sydney, the Matrix. Um, and filmed in Sydney, the Matrix. Um, and the choice between living in the reality the choice between living in the reality the choice between living in the reality or coming back to the the the true or coming back to the the the true or coming back to the the the true world, but it's a hard world. I think world, but it's a hard world. I think world, but it's a hard world. I think that young people in particular are that young people in particular are that young people in particular are spending more and more time in spending more and more time in spending more and more time in experience machines called YouTube, Tik experience machines called YouTube, Tik experience machines called YouTube, Tik Tok, um video games, and many other Tok, um video games, and many other Tok, um video games, and many other things. There's a um a term called things. There's a um a term called things. There's a um a term called marinating describing what a lot of marinating describing what a lot of marinating describing what a lot of young people do. This is their term. I young people do. This is their term. I young people do. This is their term. I I'm too old to be using it in all I'm too old to be using it in all I'm too old to be using it in all fairness, but um they they get into fairness, but um they they get into fairness, but um they they get into their beds in nighttime. Um they make their beds in nighttime. Um they make their beds in nighttime. Um they make themselves a nice cup of tea. They put themselves a nice cup of tea. They put themselves a nice cup of tea. They put the blanket up and then for 3 4 hours the blanket up and then for 3 4 hours the blanket up and then for 3 4 hours they just scroll. They just scroll they just scroll. They just scroll they just scroll. They just scroll Instagram or they scroll Tik Tok. They Instagram or they scroll Tik Tok. They Instagram or they scroll Tik Tok. They they just watch video after video after they just watch video after video after they just watch video after video after video with their brains just kind of video with their brains just kind of video with their brains just kind of totally passive in the most comfortable

totally passive in the most comfortable totally passive in the most comfortable place they they can as well hydrated as place they they can as well hydrated as place they they can as well hydrated as they can possibly be. Um the data they can possibly be. Um the data they can possibly be. Um the data suggests that that people particularly suggests that that people particularly suggests that that people particularly young people are spending enormous young people are spending enormous young people are spending enormous amounts of time uh on Netflix on YouTube amounts of time uh on Netflix on YouTube amounts of time uh on Netflix on YouTube and all these different all these and all these different all these and all these different all these different things. So in a sense we are different things. So in a sense we are different things. So in a sense we are already in the experience machines and already in the experience machines and already in the experience machines and each year they get better and better and each year they get better and better and each year they get better and better and better and it's very hard I think to better and it's very hard I think to better and it's very hard I think to proclaim the gospel to get people to proclaim the gospel to get people to proclaim the gospel to get people to live for something meaningful and real live for something meaningful and real live for something meaningful and real when the the seduction of entertainment when the the seduction of entertainment when the the seduction of entertainment is just so enticing [snorts] um as it is just so enticing [snorts] um as it is just so enticing [snorts] um as it currently is. So I think the first call currently is. So I think the first call currently is. So I think the first call is just to Christians um to to be really is just to Christians um to to be really is just to Christians um to to be really aware of the the amount of time we're aware of the the amount of time we're aware of the the amount of time we're investing in these experience machines investing in these experience machines investing in these experience machines and to think about whether that's the and to think about whether that's the and to think about whether that's the way we want to spend our lives. Um AI way we want to spend our lives. Um AI way we want to spend our lives. Um AI will allow for the personalization of will allow for the personalization of will allow for the personalization of all these experiences in a way that all these experiences in a way that all these experiences in a way that makes it more enticing. Um back in the makes it more enticing. Um back in the makes it more enticing. Um back in the day there was, you know, five or six TV day there was, you know, five or six TV day there was, you know, five or six TV stations in Australia. Um the Netflix stations in Australia. Um the Netflix stations in Australia. Um the Netflix era brought you know thousands of era brought you know thousands of era brought you know thousands of options but I think the optionality will options but I think the optionality will options but I think the optionality will just grow and grow and grow. [snorts] Um just grow and grow and grow. [snorts] Um just grow and grow and grow. [snorts] Um instead of well what the TV did instead of well what the TV did instead of well what the TV did according to Putnham was it roughly half according to Putnham was it roughly half according to Putnham was it roughly half the amount of civic engagement in the amount of civic engagement in the amount of civic engagement in America between 85 and 94. The amount of America between 85 and 94. The amount of America between 85 and 94. The amount of you know barbecues the amount of people you know barbecues the amount of people you know barbecues the amount of people going to parent teaching us nights the going to parent teaching us nights the going to parent teaching us nights the amount of people voting all these sorts amount of people voting all these sorts amount of people voting all these sorts of things. He puts it all together one of things. He puts it all together one of things. He puts it all together one metric and he says it roughly halved in metric and he says it roughly halved in metric and he says it roughly halved in 10 years. The TV pulled families apart.

10 years. The TV pulled families apart. 10 years. The TV pulled families apart. Absolutely. No, no debate. Um, but what Absolutely. No, no debate. Um, but what Absolutely. No, no debate. Um, but what we're seeing now is pulling families we're seeing now is pulling families we're seeing now is pulling families apart internally, not just pulling them apart internally, not just pulling them apart internally, not just pulling them apart from each other. Each person has apart from each other. Each person has apart from each other. Each person has their own device in their own room with their own device in their own room with their own device in their own room with their own experience machine. And what I their own experience machine. And what I their own experience machine. And what I watch, it could be totally different to watch, it could be totally different to watch, it could be totally different to what to what you know my kids are all what to what you know my kids are all what to what you know my kids are all watching. They're all watching different watching. They're all watching different watching. They're all watching different things to each other. You're losing a things to each other. You're losing a things to each other. You're losing a sense of relationships, a sense of sense of relationships, a sense of sense of relationships, a sense of shared community and you're taking away shared community and you're taking away shared community and you're taking away the hardness of life um in lots of the hardness of life um in lots of the hardness of life um in lots of little ways that actually I think makes little ways that actually I think makes little ways that actually I think makes people more fragile um and unable to to people more fragile um and unable to to people more fragile um and unable to to think deeply and to cope with deep think deeply and to cope with deep think deeply and to cope with deep realities. I can think about someone realities. I can think about someone realities. I can think about someone listening to that last answer who would listening to that last answer who would listening to that last answer who would have the the following objection. They have the the following objection. They have the the following objection. They would say, "You could have made that would say, "You could have made that would say, "You could have made that argument about every technological argument about every technological argument about every technological advance since the invention of the spear advance since the invention of the spear advance since the invention of the spear or the arrow. You're taking away the or the arrow. You're taking away the or the arrow. You're taking away the hardness of life, hunting and gathering hardness of life, hunting and gathering hardness of life, hunting and gathering by agriculture. You know, supermarkets by agriculture. You know, supermarkets by agriculture. You know, supermarkets take away the hardness of life, vacuum take away the hardness of life, vacuum take away the hardness of life, vacuum cleaners take away the hardness of cleaners take away the hardness of cleaners take away the hardness of life."

life." life." What is different then about AI? That What is different then about AI? That What is different then about AI? That it's not just one more technology that it's not just one more technology that it's not just one more technology that we've invented to you have dominion and we've invented to you have dominion and we've invented to you have dominion and make life a little easier just like make life a little easier just like make life a little easier just like spectacles you wear on your face or spectacles you wear on your face or spectacles you wear on your face or supermarkets you go to or or you know supermarkets you go to or or you know supermarkets you go to or or you know the invention of the wheel. the invention of the wheel. the invention of the wheel. >> Yeah. I think the spear was a tragic >> Yeah. I think the spear was a tragic >> Yeah. I think the spear was a tragic mistake that we've never recovered from. mistake that we've never recovered from. mistake that we've never recovered from. That's my position, Chris. No, I I'm That's my position, Chris. No, I I'm That's my position, Chris. No, I I'm just I'm just kidding. I um I think the just I'm just kidding. I um I think the just I'm just kidding. I um I think the spear was great. I think the wheel was spear was great. I think the wheel was spear was great. I think the wheel was great. I think Wi-Fi is great. And can I great. I think Wi-Fi is great. And can I great. I think Wi-Fi is great. And can I say I think I'm an optimist about AI say I think I'm an optimist about AI say I think I'm an optimist about AI more than I'm a pessimist. So, we're more than I'm a pessimist. So, we're more than I'm a pessimist. So, we're following a particular danger, a following a particular danger, a following a particular danger, a particular line of thought. But that's particular line of thought. But that's particular line of thought. But that's not the only line of thought. Um, we not the only line of thought. Um, we not the only line of thought. Um, we live in a fallen world and I think we live in a fallen world and I think we live in a fallen world and I think we forget that sometimes. We live in a forget that sometimes. We live in a forget that sometimes. We live in a world in which the ground is cursed and world in which the ground is cursed and world in which the ground is cursed and there's not enough. Uh, it's a world of there's not enough. Uh, it's a world of there's not enough. Uh, it's a world of scarcity. It's a world in which a lot of scarcity. It's a world in which a lot of scarcity. It's a world in which a lot of countries still have a GDP per capita countries still have a GDP per capita countries still have a GDP per capita under $1,000 peranom. Um, so technology under $1,000 peranom. Um, so technology under $1,000 peranom. Um, so technology often allows us to to bring an abundance often allows us to to bring an abundance often allows us to to bring an abundance and an efficiency to life. That's just and an efficiency to life. That's just and an efficiency to life. That's just absent otherwise. And I don't think absent otherwise. And I don't think absent otherwise. And I don't think anyone wants to go back and live a anyone wants to go back and live a anyone wants to go back and live a middle ages life. I don't think anyone middle ages life. I don't think anyone middle ages life. I don't think anyone wants to go back to the bronze ages and wants to go back to the bronze ages and wants to go back to the bronze ages and feel what it was like. And maybe it was feel what it was like. And maybe it was feel what it was like. And maybe it was all right for the elites um in certain all right for the elites um in certain all right for the elites um in certain ways, although most of their, you know, ways, although most of their, you know, ways, although most of their, you know, most of their children were were most of their children were were most of their children were were suffering with diseases that we could suffering with diseases that we could suffering with diseases that we could easily cure. [gasps] But for the average easily cure. [gasps] But for the average easily cure. [gasps] But for the average person, I mean, it was just unbelievable person, I mean, it was just unbelievable person, I mean, it was just unbelievable hardship. So, I don't want to go back to

hardship. So, I don't want to go back to hardship. So, I don't want to go back to any of that. And I think that my default any of that. And I think that my default any of that. And I think that my default position towards efficiency is that position towards efficiency is that position towards efficiency is that efficiency is a good thing. Um, I'm efficiency is a good thing. Um, I'm efficiency is a good thing. Um, I'm thankful that for the the many thankful that for the the many thankful that for the the many technologies that spread the gospel from technologies that spread the gospel from technologies that spread the gospel from from someplace I've never been to to the from someplace I've never been to to the from someplace I've never been to to the great southern land of Australia. um great southern land of Australia. um great southern land of Australia. um Roman roads, sales, rigging, all sorts Roman roads, sales, rigging, all sorts Roman roads, sales, rigging, all sorts of printing presses, all these sorts of of printing presses, all these sorts of of printing presses, all these sorts of things came together to help to help me things came together to help to help me things came together to help to help me hear the gospel message. So, all of that hear the gospel message. So, all of that hear the gospel message. So, all of that all of that said, there are some dangers all of that said, there are some dangers all of that said, there are some dangers um to efficiency and some dangers um um to efficiency and some dangers um um to efficiency and some dangers um that we're going to have to face, that we're going to have to face, that we're going to have to face, particularly if our lives rise to a particularly if our lives rise to a particularly if our lives rise to a point where we can have enormous leisure point where we can have enormous leisure point where we can have enormous leisure time, just unbelievable leisure time and time, just unbelievable leisure time and time, just unbelievable leisure time and leisure of a quality that we've never leisure of a quality that we've never leisure of a quality that we've never seen before. Leisure that is just seen before. Leisure that is just seen before. Leisure that is just intoxicating. Um and we can have that intoxicating. Um and we can have that intoxicating. Um and we can have that and we don't need to work. um to the and we don't need to work. um to the and we don't need to work. um to the extent that that our forefathers worked. extent that that our forefathers worked. extent that that our forefathers worked. What are some dangers about that? Well, What are some dangers about that? Well, What are some dangers about that? Well, I'm sure we can all think of some things I'm sure we can all think of some things I'm sure we can all think of some things that could be dangerous um as we move that could be dangerous um as we move that could be dangerous um as we move towards that sort of a world. And so are towards that sort of a world. And so are towards that sort of a world. And so are you seeing AI just as one more you seeing AI just as one more you seeing AI just as one more dishwasher or vacuum cleaner helping us dishwasher or vacuum cleaner helping us dishwasher or vacuum cleaner helping us to get stuff done a little bit better, to get stuff done a little bit better, to get stuff done a little bit better, improving our lives, bringing dominion, improving our lives, bringing dominion, improving our lives, bringing dominion, or is there anything or is there anything or is there anything qualitatively different about this qualitatively different about this qualitatively different about this technology that puts it in a different technology that puts it in a different technology that puts it in a different category to those things?

category to those things? category to those things? >> Yeah, there's probably a few things. The >> Yeah, there's probably a few things. The >> Yeah, there's probably a few things. The first is um well draw on the example of first is um well draw on the example of first is um well draw on the example of horses. Um horses. Um horses. Um uh when horses uh when the motorc car uh when horses uh when the motorc car uh when horses uh when the motorc car was invented in the 1920s the number of was invented in the 1920s the number of was invented in the 1920s the number of horses in America declined something horses in America declined something horses in America declined something like an 80% decline in the number of like an 80% decline in the number of like an 80% decline in the number of horses in America because and this is horses in America because and this is horses in America because and this is crucial it wasn't that there was this crucial it wasn't that there was this crucial it wasn't that there was this emerging partnership between cars and emerging partnership between cars and emerging partnership between cars and horses and they worked together and it horses and they worked together and it horses and they worked together and it was actually good for both of them and was actually good for both of them and was actually good for both of them and no it was a it was a replacement effect. no it was a it was a replacement effect. no it was a it was a replacement effect. Um the automobile replaced the horse in Um the automobile replaced the horse in Um the automobile replaced the horse in its central function which is movement its central function which is movement its central function which is movement transportation. Um therefore less horses transportation. Um therefore less horses transportation. Um therefore less horses were needed. Um horses if you will moved were needed. Um horses if you will moved were needed. Um horses if you will moved into the leisure economy of into the leisure economy of into the leisure economy of racing [snorts] and equest you know and racing [snorts] and equest you know and racing [snorts] and equest you know and all these sorts of different things but all these sorts of different things but all these sorts of different things but they they weren't in the same economic they they weren't in the same economic they they weren't in the same economic lane that they used to be in. And my lane that they used to be in. And my lane that they used to be in. And my biggest concern would be that AI kind of biggest concern would be that AI kind of biggest concern would be that AI kind of does that to human beings does that to human beings does that to human beings um through through robotics in the um through through robotics in the um through through robotics in the physical trades and um and and already I physical trades and um and and already I physical trades and um and and already I think in the intellectual trades it's think in the intellectual trades it's think in the intellectual trades it's it's really on the cusp of threatening a it's really on the cusp of threatening a it's really on the cusp of threatening a lot of jobs um and and the point will be lot of jobs um and and the point will be lot of jobs um and and the point will be you know can we work with it maybe maybe you know can we work with it maybe maybe you know can we work with it maybe maybe in some occupations but in other in some occupations but in other in some occupations but in other occupations it might just be a occupations it might just be a occupations it might just be a replacement effect and then you start to replacement effect and then you start to replacement effect and then you start to get to some harder questions about human get to some harder questions about human get to some harder questions about human beings, about what human beings are made beings, about what human beings are made beings, about what human beings are made for. And I think we're made for work. So for. And I think we're made for work. So for. And I think we're made for work. So I think if if we get to the point, oh, I I think if if we get to the point, oh, I I think if if we get to the point, oh, I don't need to work. I can just worship

don't need to work. I can just worship don't need to work. I can just worship God. I think there's something a little God. I think there's something a little God. I think there's something a little bit dangerous about that. Um I think bit dangerous about that. Um I think bit dangerous about that. Um I think we're made to worship God as we work. we're made to worship God as we work. we're made to worship God as we work. That's that's the pattern that was there That's that's the pattern that was there That's that's the pattern that was there before the fall even happened. Get out before the fall even happened. Get out before the fall even happened. Get out there and do some gardening. [snorts] Uh there and do some gardening. [snorts] Uh there and do some gardening. [snorts] Uh that's that's going to be good for you. that's that's going to be good for you. that's that's going to be good for you. That's going to be part of the way you That's going to be part of the way you That's going to be part of the way you you you serve and worship God. What I you you serve and worship God. What I you you serve and worship God. What I love about this love about this love about this position that you're sketching out here position that you're sketching out here position that you're sketching out here is that you're you're not falling into is that you're you're not falling into is that you're you're not falling into either the the sort of AI boomer camp, either the the sort of AI boomer camp, either the the sort of AI boomer camp, which is this will solve all our which is this will solve all our which is this will solve all our problems. It it's what we've always been problems. It it's what we've always been problems. It it's what we've always been waiting for. This is absolutely waiting for. This is absolutely waiting for. This is absolutely wonderful. [gasps] And you're not wonderful. [gasps] And you're not wonderful. [gasps] And you're not falling into the AI doomer camp, which falling into the AI doomer camp, which falling into the AI doomer camp, which is, you know, some sort of Terminator is, you know, some sort of Terminator is, you know, some sort of Terminator idea that this is the end of humanity. idea that this is the end of humanity. idea that this is the end of humanity. this is the worst thing that's that's this is the worst thing that's that's this is the worst thing that's that's ever happened to us. And I I'd love to ever happened to us. And I I'd love to ever happened to us. And I I'd love to try and lift the bonnet on that attitude try and lift the bonnet on that attitude try and lift the bonnet on that attitude and say what's got to be going on under and say what's got to be going on under and say what's got to be going on under the hood for that to be your sort of the hood for that to be your sort of the hood for that to be your sort of your way of approaching these things.

your way of approaching these things. your way of approaching these things. Cuz in the book, you've got this Cuz in the book, you've got this Cuz in the book, you've got this wonderful way of getting behind the wonderful way of getting behind the wonderful way of getting behind the latest headline and just reacting to latest headline and just reacting to latest headline and just reacting to whatever's new in the AI world to a much whatever's new in the AI world to a much whatever's new in the AI world to a much more longer term view. And I think in more longer term view. And I think in more longer term view. And I think in the book, if I remember, you talk about the book, if I remember, you talk about the book, if I remember, you talk about four pillars that this view is built on. four pillars that this view is built on. four pillars that this view is built on. I I'd love you to just help us to get a I I'd love you to just help us to get a I I'd love you to just help us to get a a rich rounded view of AI that doesn't a rich rounded view of AI that doesn't a rich rounded view of AI that doesn't have to respond to whatever the the have to respond to whatever the the have to respond to whatever the the latest headline is. So, I think that latest headline is. So, I think that latest headline is. So, I think that sometimes people uh are very optimistic sometimes people uh are very optimistic sometimes people uh are very optimistic or very pessimistic because they're or very pessimistic because they're or very pessimistic because they're taking one part of the Bible, one one taking one part of the Bible, one one taking one part of the Bible, one one theological thread, uh they're applying theological thread, uh they're applying theological thread, uh they're applying it to the issue, but they're forgetting it to the issue, but they're forgetting it to the issue, but they're forgetting about some of the other threads. Uh for about some of the other threads. Uh for about some of the other threads. Uh for instance, if you take the thread of sin instance, if you take the thread of sin instance, if you take the thread of sin and you go, well, you know, sin is an and you go, well, you know, sin is an and you go, well, you know, sin is an important part of the biblical message. important part of the biblical message. important part of the biblical message. Let's apply the doctrine of sin to the Let's apply the doctrine of sin to the Let's apply the doctrine of sin to the issue of AI. Well, you'll end up issue of AI. Well, you'll end up issue of AI. Well, you'll end up thinking of 10,000 ways that human sin thinking of 10,000 ways that human sin thinking of 10,000 ways that human sin will uh be perpetrated through through will uh be perpetrated through through will uh be perpetrated through through this new technology that we have. We'll this new technology that we have. We'll this new technology that we have. We'll think of new ways to sin. It even itself think of new ways to sin. It even itself think of new ways to sin. It even itself it is trained on human sin. It's an it is trained on human sin. It's an it is trained on human sin. It's an expression, a mimic of human sinful expression, a mimic of human sinful expression, a mimic of human sinful nature as scraped from the human nature as scraped from the human nature as scraped from the human internet. So, yeah, you can explore the internet. So, yeah, you can explore the internet. So, yeah, you can explore the doctrine of sin, but you need to doctrine of sin, but you need to doctrine of sin, but you need to remember that sin isn't the only remember that sin isn't the only remember that sin isn't the only category. Um God's sovereignty is a category. Um God's sovereignty is a category. Um God's sovereignty is a really important thing to think about as really important thing to think about as really important thing to think about as you think about um artificial you think about um artificial you think about um artificial intelligence that God is in control. The intelligence that God is in control. The intelligence that God is in control. The the great story of Daniel is of is of is the great story of Daniel is of is of is the great story of Daniel is of is of is of these different kingdoms with their

of these different kingdoms with their of these different kingdoms with their different technologies and they all rise different technologies and they all rise different technologies and they all rise and and fall but God's still sovereign. and and fall but God's still sovereign. and and fall but God's still sovereign. Uh he's still working his plans so you Uh he's still working his plans so you Uh he's still working his plans so you don't become catastrophic. Um the don't become catastrophic. Um the don't become catastrophic. Um the doctrine of creation is so helpful, doctrine of creation is so helpful, doctrine of creation is so helpful, isn't it? As you think about what we're isn't it? As you think about what we're isn't it? As you think about what we're made for and actually we are toolmakers made for and actually we are toolmakers made for and actually we are toolmakers and it's in us from the beginning. Um and it's in us from the beginning. Um and it's in us from the beginning. Um Isaiah 28:27. Isaiah 28:27. Isaiah 28:27. Such a helpful passage as you think Such a helpful passage as you think Such a helpful passage as you think about the positive side. Um uh and it about the positive side. Um uh and it about the positive side. Um uh and it says, "Dill is not threshed with a says, "Dill is not threshed with a says, "Dill is not threshed with a threshing sledge, nor is a cartwheel threshing sledge, nor is a cartwheel threshing sledge, nor is a cartwheel rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten rolled over cumin, but dill is beaten out with a stick and cumin with a rod. out with a stick and cumin with a rod. out with a stick and cumin with a rod. Does one crush grain for bread? No. He Does one crush grain for bread? No. He Does one crush grain for bread? No. He doesn't thresh it forever." Um this also doesn't thresh it forever." Um this also doesn't thresh it forever." Um this also comes from the Lord of Hosts. He's comes from the Lord of Hosts. He's comes from the Lord of Hosts. He's wonderful in counsel and excellent in in wonderful in counsel and excellent in in wonderful in counsel and excellent in in wisdom. God's wisdom here is actually wisdom. God's wisdom here is actually wisdom. God's wisdom here is actually technological prowess that he's giving technological prowess that he's giving technological prowess that he's giving to people. Um so fantastic. So yeah, in to people. Um so fantastic. So yeah, in to people. Um so fantastic. So yeah, in my book my four the four pillars are my book my four the four pillars are my book my four the four pillars are sort of creation um sin and the fall um sort of creation um sin and the fall um sort of creation um sin and the fall um the cross um and uh and the new creation the cross um and uh and the new creation the cross um and uh and the new creation and I try and use each one of those to and I try and use each one of those to and I try and use each one of those to think about the topic. Can you come to think about the topic. Can you come to think about the topic. Can you come to just really different conclusions and just really different conclusions and just really different conclusions and throwing it all into the mix and trying throwing it all into the mix and trying throwing it all into the mix and trying to look at it um in a unified way? I to look at it um in a unified way? I to look at it um in a unified way? I think I didn't end up as this AI think I didn't end up as this AI think I didn't end up as this AI optimist, but I also didn't end up as an optimist, but I also didn't end up as an optimist, but I also didn't end up as an AI doomer because I believe that God's AI doomer because I believe that God's AI doomer because I believe that God's ultimately in control. As we ultimately in control. As we ultimately in control. As we come towards the end of this episode, come towards the end of this episode, come towards the end of this episode, I'd love to get really practical with I'd love to get really practical with I'd love to get really practical with you if I could and I'd love to know what you if I could and I'd love to know what you if I could and I'd love to know what are you seeing on the ground? So, you're

are you seeing on the ground? So, you're are you seeing on the ground? So, you're in university ministry. How are the in university ministry. How are the in university ministry. How are the people you're ministering to using AI, people you're ministering to using AI, people you're ministering to using AI, what's AI doing to them? what's AI doing to them? what's AI doing to them? >> I think that when I was talking about >> I think that when I was talking about >> I think that when I was talking about this topic in 2023, 2024, and 2025, this topic in 2023, 2024, and 2025, this topic in 2023, 2024, and 2025, there were many people using AI, but it there were many people using AI, but it there were many people using AI, but it was inconsistent in its usefulness. was inconsistent in its usefulness. was inconsistent in its usefulness. And so, it was a bit of a joke and there And so, it was a bit of a joke and there And so, it was a bit of a joke and there was a sense of laughter. I I put that was a sense of laughter. I I put that was a sense of laughter. I I put that into chat GPT. Oh, great. What did it into chat GPT. Oh, great. What did it into chat GPT. Oh, great. What did it say this time? [snorts] say this time? [snorts] say this time? [snorts] in 2026. I think it's not a joke. I in 2026. I think it's not a joke. I in 2026. I think it's not a joke. I think it's profoundly useful. And I'm at think it's profoundly useful. And I'm at think it's profoundly useful. And I'm at um a university in Australia and for um a university in Australia and for um a university in Australia and for many disciplines um I mean it's so far many disciplines um I mean it's so far many disciplines um I mean it's so far beyond the knowledge and competency of beyond the knowledge and competency of beyond the knowledge and competency of the students that if they gave their the students that if they gave their the students that if they gave their assignments or work to it, it would just assignments or work to it, it would just assignments or work to it, it would just get a perfect score in almost everything get a perfect score in almost everything get a perfect score in almost everything that they are assessed on. I think that they are assessed on. I think that they are assessed on. I think that's a bit of a paradigm shift. We we that's a bit of a paradigm shift. We we that's a bit of a paradigm shift. We we just can't joke about it in the same just can't joke about it in the same just can't joke about it in the same way. It really is what what it was way. It really is what what it was way. It really is what what it was supposed to be. There still some things supposed to be. There still some things supposed to be. There still some things it can't do and um and so on, but it it can't do and um and so on, but it it can't do and um and so on, but it it's quite impressive. And I think the it's quite impressive. And I think the it's quite impressive. And I think the scary thought is, well, what's it going scary thought is, well, what's it going scary thought is, well, what's it going to be in 2027? You know, how how to be in 2027? You know, how how to be in 2027? You know, how how incredible is this? Um incredible is this? Um incredible is this? Um there's a a famous graph produced by an there's a a famous graph produced by an there's a a famous graph produced by an organization called MER um that looks at organization called MER um that looks at organization called MER um that looks at the the the time horizon of tasks. You

the the the time horizon of tasks. You the the the time horizon of tasks. You know, can you do a 1 minute task? Can know, can you do a 1 minute task? Can know, can you do a 1 minute task? Can you do a 10-minute task? Can you do a you do a 10-minute task? Can you do a you do a 10-minute task? Can you do a 1-hour task? Can you do a 24-hour task? 1-hour task? Can you do a 24-hour task? 1-hour task? Can you do a 24-hour task? [snorts] And the the the ability of AIS [snorts] And the the the ability of AIS [snorts] And the the the ability of AIS to go from doing 3se secondond tasks, to go from doing 3se secondond tasks, to go from doing 3se secondond tasks, you know, with a certain accuracy rate you know, with a certain accuracy rate you know, with a certain accuracy rate to doing 4hour tasks. I mean, that's a to doing 4hour tasks. I mean, that's a to doing 4hour tasks. I mean, that's a paradigm shift. Now, what happens when paradigm shift. Now, what happens when paradigm shift. Now, what happens when it goes from 40 to 40 hours and you it goes from 40 to 40 hours and you it goes from 40 to 40 hours and you click a button and it does something click a button and it does something click a button and it does something that would have taken you 40 hours of an that would have taken you 40 hours of an that would have taken you 40 hours of an expert's time? That's quite incredible. expert's time? That's quite incredible. expert's time? That's quite incredible. Um, I think that's a big change. Uh, as Um, I think that's a big change. Uh, as Um, I think that's a big change. Uh, as a result, we used to ask, I think, more a result, we used to ask, I think, more a result, we used to ask, I think, more theoretical questions and I think we're theoretical questions and I think we're theoretical questions and I think we're asking more practical questions now. Uh, asking more practical questions now. Uh, asking more practical questions now. Uh, we're going all right, well, what's my we're going all right, well, what's my we're going all right, well, what's my policy? I'm there's a church here. policy? I'm there's a church here. policy? I'm there's a church here. What's the policy going to be for the What's the policy going to be for the What's the policy going to be for the for the the young ministers in the for the the young ministers in the for the the young ministers in the church? Is it are we okay? How do we all church? Is it are we okay? How do we all church? Is it are we okay? How do we all feel about Bible studies that were feel about Bible studies that were feel about Bible studies that were written by AI and and so on? and do we written by AI and and so on? and do we written by AI and and so on? and do we need to put limits on certain things? I need to put limits on certain things? I need to put limits on certain things? I think these questions are becoming very think these questions are becoming very think these questions are becoming very very real for us now. very real for us now. very real for us now. >> I completely agree and and I I would >> I completely agree and and I I would >> I completely agree and and I I would love you to help listeners and viewers love you to help listeners and viewers love you to help listeners and viewers to begin thinking that through. So, say to begin thinking that through. So, say to begin thinking that through. So, say you're a ministry leader or you're a you're a ministry leader or you're a you're a ministry leader or you're a parent and you're faced with this sort parent and you're faced with this sort parent and you're faced with this sort of decisions, but in what ways is it of decisions, but in what ways is it of decisions, but in what ways is it okay to use AI in writing a sermon? In okay to use AI in writing a sermon? In okay to use AI in writing a sermon? In what ways is it okay to let AI invent what ways is it okay to let AI invent what ways is it okay to let AI invent the bedtime story that I say to my the bedtime story that I say to my the bedtime story that I say to my students at the end of the day? Can I students at the end of the day? Can I students at the end of the day? Can I write a letter to my wife from write a letter to my wife from write a letter to my wife from Valentine's Day and use AI to to help Valentine's Day and use AI to to help Valentine's Day and use AI to to help me? Yeah. What are the boundaries? What me? Yeah. What are the boundaries? What me? Yeah. What are the boundaries? What principles should we be thinking about

principles should we be thinking about principles should we be thinking about when we're faced with these individual when we're faced with these individual when we're faced with these individual decisions? Is it okay in this situation decisions? Is it okay in this situation decisions? Is it okay in this situation or not? or not? or not? >> All right. Well, three reasons why it's >> All right. Well, three reasons why it's >> All right. Well, three reasons why it's not always bad, if that's okay. Firstly, not always bad, if that's okay. Firstly, not always bad, if that's okay. Firstly, um uh ministry and and life has always um uh ministry and and life has always um uh ministry and and life has always occurred in the context of change. Our occurred in the context of change. Our occurred in the context of change. Our technologies are different. Um we can't technologies are different. Um we can't technologies are different. Um we can't just privilege the things that existed just privilege the things that existed just privilege the things that existed when we were growing up as if they're when we were growing up as if they're when we were growing up as if they're totally fine and natural, but then just totally fine and natural, but then just totally fine and natural, but then just be wildly negative about the new be wildly negative about the new be wildly negative about the new technologies that come along. Even in technologies that come along. Even in technologies that come along. Even in biblical times, they were moving from biblical times, they were moving from biblical times, they were moving from scrolls to codeexes from the sense that, scrolls to codeexes from the sense that, scrolls to codeexes from the sense that, you know, you could have one letter you know, you could have one letter you know, you could have one letter perhaps to to this sense of multiple perhaps to to this sense of multiple perhaps to to this sense of multiple letters in a cannon and turn to page 70 letters in a cannon and turn to page 70 letters in a cannon and turn to page 70 on your pew codeex. And so that would on your pew codeex. And so that would on your pew codeex. And so that would have been a big technological and I'm have been a big technological and I'm have been a big technological and I'm I'm betting there were some churches I'm betting there were some churches I'm betting there were some churches that said, "No way." You know, we're that said, "No way." You know, we're that said, "No way." You know, we're traditionalists and other churches that traditionalists and other churches that traditionalists and other churches that were running contemporary services with were running contemporary services with were running contemporary services with their codeexes and you know, so their codeexes and you know, so their codeexes and you know, so ministry's always been in this context ministry's always been in this context ministry's always been in this context and life's always been in this context. and life's always been in this context. and life's always been in this context. So, we need to relax a little bit there.

So, we need to relax a little bit there. So, we need to relax a little bit there. And there isn't anything in principle And there isn't anything in principle And there isn't anything in principle wrong with technology. You know, Paul wrong with technology. You know, Paul wrong with technology. You know, Paul wanted the scrolls and the parchments. wanted the scrolls and the parchments. wanted the scrolls and the parchments. Um, I don't think technology has to Um, I don't think technology has to Um, I don't think technology has to threaten the role of the Holy Spirit threaten the role of the Holy Spirit threaten the role of the Holy Spirit because the Holy Spirit is great at because the Holy Spirit is great at because the Holy Spirit is great at working through second causes, through working through second causes, through working through second causes, through all sorts of different means. And the all sorts of different means. And the all sorts of different means. And the fact that he even works through people fact that he even works through people fact that he even works through people is astonishing. But he works through the is astonishing. But he works through the is astonishing. But he works through the technology made by people as as well. He technology made by people as as well. He technology made by people as as well. He works through sound, you know, equipment works through sound, you know, equipment works through sound, you know, equipment and and PowerPoint slides and all sorts and and PowerPoint slides and all sorts and and PowerPoint slides and all sorts of things. So, I don't I don't want to of things. So, I don't I don't want to of things. So, I don't I don't want to there's nothing in principle that's there's nothing in principle that's there's nothing in principle that's actually wrong about using AI, but there actually wrong about using AI, but there actually wrong about using AI, but there are dangers and particular cases that are dangers and particular cases that are dangers and particular cases that we've got to think about. We've got to we've got to think about. We've got to we've got to think about. We've got to get our heads around. Just to throw out get our heads around. Just to throw out get our heads around. Just to throw out something to start with, I think it's something to start with, I think it's something to start with, I think it's scary that as we speak, hundreds of scary that as we speak, hundreds of scary that as we speak, hundreds of Bible studies are being written by Bible studies are being written by Bible studies are being written by various different programs um because we various different programs um because we various different programs um because we have subtly just introduced a new editor have subtly just introduced a new editor have subtly just introduced a new editor into the process. Um, I remember a long into the process. Um, I remember a long into the process. Um, I remember a long time ago a particular AI program I put a time ago a particular AI program I put a time ago a particular AI program I put a sermon about sin on the cross in and it sermon about sin on the cross in and it sermon about sin on the cross in and it removed every mention of sin on the removed every mention of sin on the removed every mention of sin on the cross. Now, it understood my sermon cross. Now, it understood my sermon cross. Now, it understood my sermon really well, but it turned it into some really well, but it turned it into some really well, but it turned it into some positive, you know, therapeutic language positive, you know, therapeutic language positive, you know, therapeutic language and all religions are passed the same and all religions are passed the same and all religions are passed the same all this sort of stuff. I didn't say all this sort of stuff. I didn't say all this sort of stuff. I didn't say that, but it put that in. Now, it was that, but it put that in. Now, it was that, but it put that in. Now, it was very clumsy back then when it did it, very clumsy back then when it did it, very clumsy back then when it did it, and I was able to just immediately get and I was able to just immediately get and I was able to just immediately get rid of that. But I think it's less rid of that. But I think it's less rid of that. But I think it's less clumsy now. I think we are now subtly um clumsy now. I think we are now subtly um clumsy now. I think we are now subtly um under the opaces of the code of conduct under the opaces of the code of conduct under the opaces of the code of conduct of Microsoft and Google and other of Microsoft and Google and other of Microsoft and Google and other companies that are that are

companies that are that are companies that are that are shadowediting our sermons in our Bible shadowediting our sermons in our Bible shadowediting our sermons in our Bible studies just a little bit even just one studies just a little bit even just one studies just a little bit even just one or two% they might um you know they or two% they might um you know they or two% they might um you know they might move the the the sense of sin away might move the the the sense of sin away might move the the the sense of sin away from objective guilt to subjective guilt from objective guilt to subjective guilt from objective guilt to subjective guilt to a feeling instead of a reality before to a feeling instead of a reality before to a feeling instead of a reality before a holy God. um they might they might a holy God. um they might they might a holy God. um they might they might talk about brokenness a little bit more talk about brokenness a little bit more talk about brokenness a little bit more and about sin a little bit less. So and about sin a little bit less. So and about sin a little bit less. So there's all sorts of just little ways there's all sorts of just little ways there's all sorts of just little ways that they might be subtly editing the that they might be subtly editing the that they might be subtly editing the Christian message on a global scale. So Christian message on a global scale. So Christian message on a global scale. So I'm a little bit I'm a little bit I'm a little bit I'm a little bit I'm a little bit I'm a little bit worried about that. What other dangers worried about that. What other dangers worried about that. What other dangers are there? Um there's a there's a huge are there? Um there's a there's a huge are there? Um there's a there's a huge danger I think to our thinking. Um danger I think to our thinking. Um danger I think to our thinking. Um uh the in 2008 the review of um general uh the in 2008 the review of um general uh the in 2008 the review of um general psychology had an article writing as psychology had an article writing as psychology had an article writing as thinking and they argued that writing is thinking and they argued that writing is thinking and they argued that writing is a form of thinking just as speaking is a a form of thinking just as speaking is a a form of thinking just as speaking is a is a form of thinking. Um now what is a form of thinking. Um now what is a form of thinking. Um now what happens when you know 100 words 200 happens when you know 100 words 200 happens when you know 100 words 200 words here then a thousand words here words here then a thousand words here words here then a thousand words here then all this thinking is is getting then all this thinking is is getting then all this thinking is is getting automated and we're just the people just automated and we're just the people just automated and we're just the people just kind of moving blocks around. I think kind of moving blocks around. I think kind of moving blocks around. I think that's dangerous. um was an MIT study that's dangerous. um was an MIT study that's dangerous. um was an MIT study that showed that people using chat GBT that showed that people using chat GBT that showed that people using chat GBT for their essays had remarkably lower um for their essays had remarkably lower um for their essays had remarkably lower um retention of even of the things they had retention of even of the things they had retention of even of the things they had put in their own essays. They they had put in their own essays. They they had put in their own essays. They they had not processed it nearly the same extent.

not processed it nearly the same extent. not processed it nearly the same extent. And I think that pastors and other And I think that pastors and other And I think that pastors and other people trying to do ministry are going people trying to do ministry are going people trying to do ministry are going to lose thousands, tens, hundreds of to lose thousands, tens, hundreds of to lose thousands, tens, hundreds of thousands of words of thinking that are thousands of words of thinking that are thousands of words of thinking that are so crucial that are so crucial to us. so crucial that are so crucial to us. so crucial that are so crucial to us. >> It's the difference again, isn't it? And >> It's the difference again, isn't it? And >> It's the difference again, isn't it? And I I think you're absolutely right I I think you're absolutely right I I think you're absolutely right between measuring your value by what you between measuring your value by what you between measuring your value by what you produce. I.e. Do I have a sparkling produce. I.e. Do I have a sparkling produce. I.e. Do I have a sparkling sermon that's going to deliver really sermon that's going to deliver really sermon that's going to deliver really well on a Sunday morning? Or do I have well on a Sunday morning? Or do I have well on a Sunday morning? Or do I have the great bedtime story that's going to the great bedtime story that's going to the great bedtime story that's going to make my kid, you know, really excited? make my kid, you know, really excited? make my kid, you know, really excited? and and and what that is doing to you, who you are what that is doing to you, who you are what that is doing to you, who you are becoming through writing that sermon or becoming through writing that sermon or becoming through writing that sermon or thinking of that story and it not coming thinking of that story and it not coming thinking of that story and it not coming out quite right and you you struggling out quite right and you you struggling out quite right and you you struggling with parts of it. There's there's with parts of it. There's there's with parts of it. There's there's there's a work that's happening inside there's a work that's happening inside there's a work that's happening inside you, isn't there? That you, isn't there? That you, isn't there? That and and I is it is the work that's and and I is it is the work that's and and I is it is the work that's happening inside you more important than happening inside you more important than happening inside you more important than what you're producing? I I'm just trying what you're producing? I I'm just trying what you're producing? I I'm just trying to think about what's the relationship to think about what's the relationship to think about what's the relationship between those two.

between those two. between those two. >> Um I don't want to go too far the other >> Um I don't want to go too far the other >> Um I don't want to go too far the other way. I I once was talking about some of way. I I once was talking about some of way. I I once was talking about some of this stuff and someone said they were this stuff and someone said they were this stuff and someone said they were just against efficiency. They're they're just against efficiency. They're they're just against efficiency. They're they're in industry. They said they're just in industry. They said they're just in industry. They said they're just against it. And my first question, maybe against it. And my first question, maybe against it. And my first question, maybe it was a bit impetuous of me, but I it was a bit impetuous of me, but I it was a bit impetuous of me, but I said, "Do you use a printer or do you said, "Do you use a printer or do you said, "Do you use a printer or do you use, you know, a pen and paper?" Said, use, you know, a pen and paper?" Said, use, you know, a pen and paper?" Said, "Oh, of course I use a printer." So, I "Oh, of course I use a printer." So, I "Oh, of course I use a printer." So, I don't think they'd fully processed how don't think they'd fully processed how don't think they'd fully processed how wildly efficient their life already was wildly efficient their life already was wildly efficient their life already was because of 10,000 different technologies because of 10,000 different technologies because of 10,000 different technologies they were using on an hourly basis. they were using on an hourly basis. they were using on an hourly basis. The only problem they had was with the The only problem they had was with the The only problem they had was with the new one. And I think that's a really new one. And I think that's a really new one. And I think that's a really unhelpful, you know, way to think about unhelpful, you know, way to think about unhelpful, you know, way to think about it. But you're right. Um, I think so I it. But you're right. Um, I think so I it. But you're right. Um, I think so I want to say efficiency is good, narrow want to say efficiency is good, narrow want to say efficiency is good, narrow efficiency is bad. And we are so often efficiency is bad. And we are so often efficiency is bad. And we are so often tempted to optimize narrow efficiency. tempted to optimize narrow efficiency. tempted to optimize narrow efficiency. So we we forget about all the character So we we forget about all the character So we we forget about all the character growth and training and godliness that growth and training and godliness that growth and training and godliness that comes with preparing, you know, a comes with preparing, you know, a comes with preparing, you know, a message from God's word. We forget about message from God's word. We forget about message from God's word. We forget about all that. That's not what we're all that. That's not what we're all that. That's not what we're optimizing. We just optimize for what is optimizing. We just optimize for what is optimizing. We just optimize for what is the best sermon that gets the best the best sermon that gets the best the best sermon that gets the best reaction. Now, you've optimized for the reaction. Now, you've optimized for the reaction. Now, you've optimized for the wrong thing. And in the long run, even wrong thing. And in the long run, even wrong thing. And in the long run, even from an efficiency point of view, it'll from an efficiency point of view, it'll from an efficiency point of view, it'll all break down. your ministry will not all break down. your ministry will not all break down. your ministry will not be efficient in the long run. It'll just be efficient in the long run. It'll just be efficient in the long run. It'll just you'll get a little shortrun sugar hit.

you'll get a little shortrun sugar hit. you'll get a little shortrun sugar hit. >> I love that distinction between narrow >> I love that distinction between narrow >> I love that distinction between narrow efficiency and broad efficiency. It's efficiency and broad efficiency. It's efficiency and broad efficiency. It's putting a label on something that I I've putting a label on something that I I've putting a label on something that I I've been struggling to understand. So you been struggling to understand. So you been struggling to understand. So you you are through struggling writing the you are through struggling writing the you are through struggling writing the sermon through trying to work out a sermon through trying to work out a sermon through trying to work out a bedtime story out of your own bedtime story out of your own bedtime story out of your own imagination you are optimizing for imagination you are optimizing for imagination you are optimizing for efficiency. But it's a wider efficiency. efficiency. But it's a wider efficiency. efficiency. But it's a wider efficiency. It's the efficiency of becoming the sort It's the efficiency of becoming the sort It's the efficiency of becoming the sort of person who of person who of person who is able to be a good parent, is able to is able to be a good parent, is able to is able to be a good parent, is able to be a good pastor, teacher, which is be a good pastor, teacher, which is be a good pastor, teacher, which is actually a richer and deeper efficiency actually a richer and deeper efficiency actually a richer and deeper efficiency than just delivering a sermon that's than just delivering a sermon that's than just delivering a sermon that's going to have people sort of, you know, going to have people sort of, you know, going to have people sort of, you know, rapsidizing in the pews. There's such a rapsidizing in the pews. There's such a rapsidizing in the pews. There's such a helpful way of looking at it. Thank you. helpful way of looking at it. Thank you. helpful way of looking at it. Thank you. As we come to a close now, I' I'd love As we come to a close now, I' I'd love As we come to a close now, I' I'd love to just ask you two closing questions. to just ask you two closing questions. to just ask you two closing questions. Um, what is one inefficient human habit Um, what is one inefficient human habit Um, what is one inefficient human habit uh that you're committed to keeping in uh that you're committed to keeping in uh that you're committed to keeping in the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, the age of AI? And if AI is a mirror, what is one thing that it's revealed to what is one thing that it's revealed to what is one thing that it's revealed to you personally about [clears throat] you personally about [clears throat] you personally about [clears throat] your own heart?

your own heart? your own heart? >> Thank you. Yeah. Um, uh, one efficient >> Thank you. Yeah. Um, uh, one efficient >> Thank you. Yeah. Um, uh, one efficient habit which I want to get better at, um, habit which I want to get better at, um, habit which I want to get better at, um, that we need to keep in the age of AI is that we need to keep in the age of AI is that we need to keep in the age of AI is prayer. Um [snorts] prayer. Um [snorts] prayer. Um [snorts] uh I suppose you could get chat to pray uh I suppose you could get chat to pray uh I suppose you could get chat to pray for you but it misses the whole point for you but it misses the whole point for you but it misses the whole point doesn't it? Um now the second question doesn't it? Um now the second question doesn't it? Um now the second question um one thing that AI as a mirror has um one thing that AI as a mirror has um one thing that AI as a mirror has exposed about me um I think there can be exposed about me um I think there can be exposed about me um I think there can be an addictive kind of curiosity. I love an addictive kind of curiosity. I love an addictive kind of curiosity. I love learning stuff. You know I was the kid learning stuff. You know I was the kid learning stuff. You know I was the kid that just wanted to to sit down and read that just wanted to to sit down and read that just wanted to to sit down and read whatever. Um then Wikipedia came along whatever. Um then Wikipedia came along whatever. Um then Wikipedia came along and I thought this is fantastic. and I thought this is fantastic. and I thought this is fantastic. But um but chatbt or Gemini can be even But um but chatbt or Gemini can be even But um but chatbt or Gemini can be even better. I mean you can you can find out better. I mean you can you can find out better. I mean you can you can find out you can explore all sorts of things you can explore all sorts of things you can explore all sorts of things about God's world. Um there is a real about God's world. Um there is a real about God's world. Um there is a real goodness to that. Um cuz God made that goodness to that. Um cuz God made that goodness to that. Um cuz God made that world. Um but uh it's an individualistic world. Um but uh it's an individualistic world. Um but uh it's an individualistic sort of curiosity. sort of curiosity. sort of curiosity. >> Wonderful. Steven Driscoll, thank you so >> Wonderful. Steven Driscoll, thank you so >> Wonderful. Steven Driscoll, thank you so much for helping us to think about AI much for helping us to think about AI much for helping us to think about AI today.

today. today. >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. If you >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. If you >> Thank you. Thanks for having me. If you want to take these ideas further, uh, want to take these ideas further, uh, want to take these ideas further, uh, come join the Silicon Spiritualities come join the Silicon Spiritualities come join the Silicon Spiritualities Discord where we'll be learning together Discord where we'll be learning together Discord where we'll be learning together how to follow Jesus in a techsaturated how to follow Jesus in a techsaturated how to follow Jesus in a techsaturated world. Inside you'll find practical world. Inside you'll find practical world. Inside you'll find practical experiments for every episode and experiments for every episode and experiments for every episode and details of an upcoming online cohort you details of an upcoming online cohort you details of an upcoming online cohort you can join. Uh, the link is waiting for can join. Uh, the link is waiting for can join. Uh, the link is waiting for you in the show notes right now and we'd you in the show notes right now and we'd you in the show notes right now and we'd love to see you there.