When You Want to Change Your Husband [The Deep Dish - Ep. 25]

I think the thing that for most of us as I think the thing that for most of us as women, we don't want to hurt them. We're women, we don't want to hurt them. We're women, we don't want to hurt them. We're not meaning to harm them in any way. But not meaning to harm them in any way. But not meaning to harm them in any way. But I don't think we realize the power that I don't think we realize the power that I don't think we realize the power that we have and the power of our words, not we have and the power of our words, not we have and the power of our words, not only for our over our husbands, but our only for our over our husbands, but our only for our over our husbands, but our friends, our kids, our parents, all of friends, our kids, our parents, all of friends, our kids, our parents, all of that. It's really we have the power to that. It's really we have the power to that. It's really we have the power to change things for good or for bad. [Music] [Music] Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a Hi friends, welcome to the Deep Dish, a podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where podcast from the Gospel Coalition where we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about we love having deep conversations about deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and deep truths. I'm Melissa Krueger and today I am joined with someone that I'm today I am joined with someone that I'm today I am joined with someone that I'm so excited to have here. It's Ann so excited to have here. It's Ann so excited to have here. It's Ann Wilson. She's joining us. Courtney is Wilson. She's joining us. Courtney is Wilson. She's joining us. Courtney is not with us today, but I I even told Ann not with us today, but I I even told Ann not with us today, but I I even told Ann this beforehand. Um, if I have to host this beforehand. Um, if I have to host this beforehand. Um, if I have to host alone, Ann is such a great person to get alone, Ann is such a great person to get alone, Ann is such a great person to get to talk to. We have talked numerous to talk to. We have talked numerous to talk to. We have talked numerous times before and every time I have times before and every time I have times before and every time I have talked with Ann, I could just talk an talked with Ann, I could just talk an talked with Ann, I could just talk an extra hour because she's full of so much extra hour because she's full of so much extra hour because she's full of so much wisdom. Um, she I love just the insights wisdom. Um, she I love just the insights wisdom. Um, she I love just the insights you have whenever we talk. You ask the you have whenever we talk. You ask the you have whenever we talk. You ask the best questions always and it's just a best questions always and it's just a best questions always and it's just a real joy to have you here. You may know real joy to have you here. You may know real joy to have you here. You may know her because she and her husband Dave um her because she and her husband Dave um her because she and her husband Dave um they run a radio broadcast and podcast they run a radio broadcast and podcast they run a radio broadcast and podcast for Family Life Today. So, they have for Family Life Today. So, they have for Family Life Today. So, they have interviewed uh you know how many people interviewed uh you know how many people interviewed uh you know how many people have you interviewed through the years?

have you interviewed through the years? have you interviewed through the years? You probably don't even know. You probably don't even know. You probably don't even know. >> I just looked it up. We've done over >> I just looked it up. We've done over >> I just looked it up. We've done over 2,000 interviews. 2,000 interviews. 2,000 interviews. >> So, 2,000 >> So, 2,000 >> So, 2,000 crazy. crazy. crazy. >> So, what a joy to get to have you here >> So, what a joy to get to have you here >> So, what a joy to get to have you here today. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I today. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I today. I mean, that's pretty amazing. I love you. You are so fun to talk to. I love you. You are so fun to talk to. I love you. You are so fun to talk to. I could say all those things back to you. could say all those things back to you. could say all those things back to you. You're incredibly wise, insightful, You're incredibly wise, insightful, You're incredibly wise, insightful, biblical, fun. So, I'm really excited to biblical, fun. So, I'm really excited to biblical, fun. So, I'm really excited to be with you today. be with you today. be with you today. >> Well, this is such a treat. And we're >> Well, this is such a treat. And we're >> Well, this is such a treat. And we're going to be talking today about a topic going to be talking today about a topic going to be talking today about a topic that I'm so excited to talk with you that I'm so excited to talk with you that I'm so excited to talk with you about in particular because you've just about in particular because you've just about in particular because you've just written a book on this topic. Did you written a book on this topic. Did you written a book on this topic. Did you write it with your with Dave or is it write it with your with Dave or is it write it with your with Dave or is it just from you? Dave, at the end of each just from you? Dave, at the end of each just from you? Dave, at the end of each chapter, Dave has like a couple pages of chapter, Dave has like a couple pages of chapter, Dave has like a couple pages of a of a husband's insights. They're so a of a husband's insights. They're so a of a husband's insights. They're so good. I feel like if guys would read good. I feel like if guys would read good. I feel like if guys would read what Dave wrote or if a wife would read what Dave wrote or if a wife would read what Dave wrote or if a wife would read it, it just gives you a guy's it, it just gives you a guy's it, it just gives you a guy's perspective into marriage and I think perspective into marriage and I think perspective into marriage and I think that's kind of helpful sometimes. that's kind of helpful sometimes. that's kind of helpful sometimes. >> So, it really is both of you speaking in >> So, it really is both of you speaking in >> So, it really is both of you speaking in what a great what a great thing to get what a great what a great thing to get what a great what a great thing to get to have. So, tell me the name of the to have. So, tell me the name of the to have. So, tell me the name of the book again.

book again. book again. >> Okay, I have a I have a copy. How to >> Okay, I have a I have a copy. How to >> Okay, I have a I have a copy. How to speak life to your husband when all you speak life to your husband when all you speak life to your husband when all you want to do is yell at him. want to do is yell at him. want to do is yell at him. It's kind of a memoir, which is It's kind of a memoir, which is It's kind of a memoir, which is embarrassing, actually. embarrassing, actually. embarrassing, actually. >> Who Who would ever want to yell at your >> Who Who would ever want to yell at your >> Who Who would ever want to yell at your husband? And I don't even know what husband? And I don't even know what husband? And I don't even know what you're talking about. No, clearly we're you're talking about. No, clearly we're you're talking about. No, clearly we're going to have a real conversation today. going to have a real conversation today. going to have a real conversation today. I'm so glad. And we know that some of I'm so glad. And we know that some of I'm so glad. And we know that some of our listeners um aren't married, but I our listeners um aren't married, but I our listeners um aren't married, but I still think this is such a good still think this is such a good still think this is such a good conversation because marriage is really conversation because marriage is really conversation because marriage is really all about relationship and all about all about relationship and all about all about relationship and all about living beside another. So whether you're living beside another. So whether you're living beside another. So whether you're married or not, I think this is a great married or not, I think this is a great married or not, I think this is a great conversation to have just to learn um conversation to have just to learn um conversation to have just to learn um how do we live as friends with other how do we live as friends with other how do we live as friends with other people, roommates with other people, people, roommates with other people, people, roommates with other people, co-workers with other people, and co-workers with other people, and co-workers with other people, and obviously the the most intimate of those obviously the the most intimate of those obviously the the most intimate of those relationships is going to be our spouse. relationships is going to be our spouse. relationships is going to be our spouse. And so I'm really excited about this And so I'm really excited about this And so I'm really excited about this conversation and just thinking through conversation and just thinking through conversation and just thinking through how can we love one another better as as how can we love one another better as as how can we love one another better as as we are married or in any relationship in we are married or in any relationship in we are married or in any relationship in in our life. And I've done this too, in our life. And I've done this too, in our life. And I've done this too, Melissa, with some like with the groups Melissa, with some like with the groups Melissa, with some like with the groups of women and singles are in the room.

of women and singles are in the room. of women and singles are in the room. And a lot of it just has to do with And a lot of it just has to do with And a lot of it just has to do with learning to speak life and even over learning to speak life and even over learning to speak life and even over kind of taking an analysis of the what kind of taking an analysis of the what kind of taking an analysis of the what you're speaking in your own mind about you're speaking in your own mind about you're speaking in your own mind about yourself. Do you know what I mean? Like yourself. Do you know what I mean? Like yourself. Do you know what I mean? Like do you speak life or death words to do you speak life or death words to do you speak life or death words to yourself and to others? Because it yourself and to others? Because it yourself and to others? Because it starts right here. starts right here. starts right here. >> Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. >> Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. >> Yeah, that's so good. That's so good. Okay, I can't wait to jump in. Well, let Okay, I can't wait to jump in. Well, let Okay, I can't wait to jump in. Well, let me before we jump into that, can you me before we jump into that, can you me before we jump into that, can you tell us a little bit about the first 10 tell us a little bit about the first 10 tell us a little bit about the first 10 years of your marriage and what was that years of your marriage and what was that years of your marriage and what was that like? Yeah. Well, first tell us how many like? Yeah. Well, first tell us how many like? Yeah. Well, first tell us how many years you've been married. So, give us years you've been married. So, give us years you've been married. So, give us then a little insight into the first 10 then a little insight into the first 10 then a little insight into the first 10 years and how did you try to change your years and how did you try to change your years and how did you try to change your husband? So, we'll get husband? So, we'll get husband? So, we'll get >> Oh, you think I did? You think I tried >> Oh, you think I did? You think I tried >> Oh, you think I did? You think I tried to change him? to change him? to change him? >> Maybe not. Maybe not. >> Maybe not. Maybe not. >> Maybe not. Maybe not. We've been married 45 years. We have We've been married 45 years. We have We've been married 45 years. We have three kids. Seven that are all married three kids. Seven that are all married three kids. Seven that are all married and seven grandkids. And honestly, when and seven grandkids. And honestly, when and seven grandkids. And honestly, when Dave and I met, I thought, "This is the Dave and I met, I thought, "This is the Dave and I met, I thought, "This is the most fantastic man on the planet. We most fantastic man on the planet. We most fantastic man on the planet. We both love Jesus, and we were pretty new both love Jesus, and we were pretty new both love Jesus, and we were pretty new in our faith." But I thought, "We're in our faith." But I thought, "We're in our faith." But I thought, "We're going to change the world together. We going to change the world together. We going to change the world together. We have terrible past. Neither one of us have terrible past. Neither one of us have terrible past. Neither one of us grew up in a Christian home, but who grew up in a Christian home, but who grew up in a Christian home, but who cares about that?" Because now we're new cares about that?" Because now we're new cares about that?" Because now we're new creatures in Christ, and God's just creatures in Christ, and God's just creatures in Christ, and God's just going to use all of that. And so, I going to use all of that. And so, I going to use all of that. And so, I thought marriage would be so easy thought marriage would be so easy thought marriage would be so easy because we love Jesus, and we're totally because we love Jesus, and we're totally because we love Jesus, and we're totally committed to Jesus and to each other.

committed to Jesus and to each other. committed to Jesus and to each other. And Dave and I had gone to a weekend to And Dave and I had gone to a weekend to And Dave and I had gone to a weekend to remember marriage getaway that Family remember marriage getaway that Family remember marriage getaway that Family Life hosts and we speak for them now two Life hosts and we speak for them now two Life hosts and we speak for them now two weeks before we got married. And if you weeks before we got married. And if you weeks before we got married. And if you would have asked me on that day like would have asked me on that day like would have asked me on that day like what do you what are Dave Wilson what what do you what are Dave Wilson what what do you what are Dave Wilson what are Dave Wilson's weaknesses? I would are Dave Wilson's weaknesses? I would are Dave Wilson's weaknesses? I would have said oh boy I can't even think of have said oh boy I can't even think of have said oh boy I can't even think of any. And then any. And then any. And then 6 months later this is horrible you 6 months later this is horrible you 6 months later this is horrible you guys. 6 months later I remember we're in guys. 6 months later I remember we're in guys. 6 months later I remember we're in this huge fight. We're going to the this huge fight. We're going to the this huge fight. We're going to the University of Nebraska to be on staff University of Nebraska to be on staff University of Nebraska to be on staff with crew. And I remember looking at him with crew. And I remember looking at him with crew. And I remember looking at him thinking, I can't think of anything I thinking, I can't think of anything I thinking, I can't think of anything I really like about him, which is really like about him, which is really like about him, which is horrible. And then we in this big fight, horrible. And then we in this big fight, horrible. And then we in this big fight, so I yell, "Marry you really loud, so I yell, "Marry you really loud, so I yell, "Marry you really loud, actually. Marrying you was the biggest actually. Marrying you was the biggest actually. Marrying you was the biggest mistake of my life." mistake of my life." mistake of my life." And so I don't think I realized then too And so I don't think I realized then too And so I don't think I realized then too that marriage has its valleys that are that marriage has its valleys that are that marriage has its valleys that are really low and it has the mountain tops really low and it has the mountain tops really low and it has the mountain tops like every single relationship it's like every single relationship it's like every single relationship it's normal to go from peaks and valleys.

normal to go from peaks and valleys. normal to go from peaks and valleys. That's normal. We just didn't know how That's normal. We just didn't know how That's normal. We just didn't know how to get out of it and how to build a to get out of it and how to build a to get out of it and how to build a relationship on the foundation of Jesus. relationship on the foundation of Jesus. relationship on the foundation of Jesus. And so that took us to a place of And so that took us to a place of And so that took us to a place of pulling out our old manual that we went pulling out our old manual that we went pulling out our old manual that we went through at the weekend to remember that through at the weekend to remember that through at the weekend to remember that we really didn't pay attention to we really didn't pay attention to we really didn't pay attention to because we assumed we'd be so great. because we assumed we'd be so great. because we assumed we'd be so great. And uh we actually taught it. We had a And uh we actually taught it. We had a And uh we actually taught it. We had a Bible study because we had some married Bible study because we had some married Bible study because we had some married students ask us, "Hey, we're really students ask us, "Hey, we're really students ask us, "Hey, we're really struggling in our marriage. Could you struggling in our marriage. Could you struggling in our marriage. Could you guys help us?" And Dave and I were like, guys help us?" And Dave and I were like, guys help us?" And Dave and I were like, "Uh, we don't really like each other, "Uh, we don't really like each other, "Uh, we don't really like each other, but I guess we can see what God says but I guess we can see what God says but I guess we can see what God says about marriage." And it really helped us about marriage." And it really helped us about marriage." And it really helped us a ton. And so we kind of we kind of got a ton. And so we kind of we kind of got a ton. And so we kind of we kind of got through some of that. We learned what's through some of that. We learned what's through some of that. We learned what's it what it's like to build a marriage on it what it's like to build a marriage on it what it's like to build a marriage on the foundation of Jesus. But then we the foundation of Jesus. But then we the foundation of Jesus. But then we went through another valley when we had went through another valley when we had went through another valley when we had two kids that were four and two. Dave, two kids that were four and two. Dave, two kids that were four and two. Dave, we were starting a church. Dave had been we were starting a church. Dave had been we were starting a church. Dave had been the chaplain for the Detroit Lions for the chaplain for the Detroit Lions for the chaplain for the Detroit Lions for 35 years. So he was on the road 35 years. So he was on the road 35 years. So he was on the road traveling with them. And we came to a traveling with them. And we came to a traveling with them. And we came to a point in year 10 that I told Dave like, point in year 10 that I told Dave like, point in year 10 that I told Dave like, "I've lost all my feelings for you. I "I've lost all my feelings for you. I "I've lost all my feelings for you. I don't know how we get out of this valley don't know how we get out of this valley don't know how we get out of this valley because it feels so bleak and so because it feels so bleak and so because it feels so bleak and so hopeless. And um we both went through a hopeless. And um we both went through a hopeless. And um we both went through a journey of repenting. It's a long story.

journey of repenting. It's a long story. journey of repenting. It's a long story. It's in this book right here, Vertical It's in this book right here, Vertical It's in this book right here, Vertical Marriage. But we really learned how to Marriage. But we really learned how to Marriage. But we really learned how to daily put Jesus as king of our marriage daily put Jesus as king of our marriage daily put Jesus as king of our marriage and our lives. But I think it was at and our lives. But I think it was at and our lives. But I think it was at that point that I realized and I felt that point that I realized and I felt that point that I realized and I felt like God was telling me, Anne Wilson, like God was telling me, Anne Wilson, like God was telling me, Anne Wilson, you've been trying to find all of your you've been trying to find all of your you've been trying to find all of your hope and your meaning and your happiness hope and your meaning and your happiness hope and your meaning and your happiness through Dave. I never made him or through Dave. I never made him or through Dave. I never made him or equipped him to make you happy and to equipped him to make you happy and to equipped him to make you happy and to fill you up to the brim. That's my job. fill you up to the brim. That's my job. fill you up to the brim. That's my job. And I think it was the first time I And I think it was the first time I And I think it was the first time I realized that I had made my marriage, realized that I had made my marriage, realized that I had made my marriage, which is a good thing, and Dave, which which is a good thing, and Dave, which which is a good thing, and Dave, which is a good thing, as an idol. And I I is a good thing, as an idol. And I I is a good thing, as an idol. And I I think when I take my I don't know if think when I take my I don't know if think when I take my I don't know if anybody else is like this, but when I anybody else is like this, but when I anybody else is like this, but when I take my eyes off of Jesus, I'm looking take my eyes off of Jesus, I'm looking take my eyes off of Jesus, I'm looking for something to make me happy and to for something to make me happy and to for something to make me happy and to fill me up. And even though marriage is fill me up. And even though marriage is fill me up. And even though marriage is so great and God ordained it and and he so great and God ordained it and and he so great and God ordained it and and he really distinguishes it, it still isn't really distinguishes it, it still isn't really distinguishes it, it still isn't the source of our happiness. And so the source of our happiness. And so the source of our happiness. And so and then about 10 years later, we hit and then about 10 years later, we hit and then about 10 years later, we hit another valley. And I think that's when another valley. And I think that's when another valley. And I think that's when I kind of started this idea of I kind of started this idea of I kind of started this idea of realizing, realizing, realizing, >> wow, my words to Dave can tend to be >> wow, my words to Dave can tend to be >> wow, my words to Dave can tend to be really critical and even my thoughts really critical and even my thoughts really critical and even my thoughts about Dave can be really critical. So, I about Dave can be really critical. So, I about Dave can be really critical. So, I just feel like it's normal to go up and just feel like it's normal to go up and just feel like it's normal to go up and down. And what I've tried to figure out down. And what I've tried to figure out down. And what I've tried to figure out is how do I put Jesus at the throne of is how do I put Jesus at the throne of is how do I put Jesus at the throne of my life? at the throne and he's in my life? at the throne and he's in my life? at the throne and he's in control of everything all the time control of everything all the time control of everything all the time because it's easy for me to take his because it's easy for me to take his because it's easy for me to take his place place place >> and try to find my happiness and joy >> and try to find my happiness and joy >> and try to find my happiness and joy through other things rather than Jesus.

through other things rather than Jesus. through other things rather than Jesus. >> Wow. There's so much encouragement in >> Wow. There's so much encouragement in >> Wow. There's so much encouragement in what you just said. I mean, first just what you just said. I mean, first just what you just said. I mean, first just the acknowledgement of the up and downs, the acknowledgement of the up and downs, the acknowledgement of the up and downs, right? Because I think that was shocking right? Because I think that was shocking right? Because I think that was shocking to me, too. I was like, "No, we're going to me, too. I was like, "No, we're going to me, too. I was like, "No, we're going to be a Christian marriage." to be a Christian marriage." to be a Christian marriage." >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. So, it's going to just be from here to So, it's going to just be from here to So, it's going to just be from here to glory, a linear path of new delights all glory, a linear path of new delights all glory, a linear path of new delights all along the way, you know? I mean, I along the way, you know? I mean, I along the way, you know? I mean, I really did have this kind of mindset of really did have this kind of mindset of really did have this kind of mindset of no, no, because we have all the right no, no, because we have all the right no, no, because we have all the right theology. theology. theology. >> Yes, >> Yes, >> Yes, >> we're going to be great. And then >> we're going to be great. And then >> we're going to be great. And then >> because we're new creatures in Christ. >> because we're new creatures in Christ. >> because we're new creatures in Christ. >> Yeah. Not knowing that there's some >> Yeah. Not knowing that there's some >> Yeah. Not knowing that there's some baggage that God wants to heal and deal baggage that God wants to heal and deal baggage that God wants to heal and deal with. No, there's so baggage. What are with. No, there's so baggage. What are with. No, there's so baggage. What are you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. you talking about? Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. And so it was, you know, and I Exactly. And so it was, you know, and I Exactly. And so it was, you know, and I would even say we agree on 99% of life. would even say we agree on 99% of life. would even say we agree on 99% of life. >> But man, let me tell you the battles we >> But man, let me tell you the battles we >> But man, let me tell you the battles we can get in over that 1%. can get in over that 1%. can get in over that 1%. >> Like wow. I mean, >> Like wow. I mean, >> Like wow. I mean, >> like the the lines can be drawn, the war >> like the the lines can be drawn, the war >> like the the lines can be drawn, the war can commence. Yeah. And it's just it it can commence. Yeah. And it's just it it can commence. Yeah. And it's just it it really exposes um so much of my heart.

really exposes um so much of my heart. really exposes um so much of my heart. And I think exactly what you just said And I think exactly what you just said And I think exactly what you just said about it exposes that I think he's about it exposes that I think he's about it exposes that I think he's supposed to fix my life and be the supposed to fix my life and be the supposed to fix my life and be the source of my happiness, which is why if source of my happiness, which is why if source of my happiness, which is why if I'm not happy, he must need to change. I'm not happy, he must need to change. I'm not happy, he must need to change. It's his fault. It's his fault. It's his fault. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. And I can remember sometimes Yeah. And I can remember sometimes Yeah. And I can remember sometimes particularly bad um when we first moved particularly bad um when we first moved particularly bad um when we first moved overseas. We we had moved for his PhD overseas. We we had moved for his PhD overseas. We we had moved for his PhD work and I felt really lost and I didn't work and I felt really lost and I didn't work and I felt really lost and I didn't you know uh I didn't want to be there. you know uh I didn't want to be there. you know uh I didn't want to be there. Let's just be honest. Um I didn't want Let's just be honest. Um I didn't want Let's just be honest. Um I didn't want to be there. I felt like I had followed to be there. I felt like I had followed to be there. I felt like I had followed him and I pretty much made sure he knew him and I pretty much made sure he knew him and I pretty much made sure he knew every day everything that was hard about every day everything that was hard about every day everything that was hard about living overseas was a little bit his living overseas was a little bit his living overseas was a little bit his fault. Did you have any kids? fault. Did you have any kids? fault. Did you have any kids? >> No. No. We had our first baby over >> No. No. We had our first baby over >> No. No. We had our first baby over there. We had our first baby over there. there. We had our first baby over there. there. We had our first baby over there. So, that's fun, too, you know. So, you So, that's fun, too, you know. So, you So, that's fun, too, you know. So, you know, different healthc care all alone. know, different healthc care all alone. know, different healthc care all alone. Yeah. So, we we went through all that. Yeah. So, we we went through all that. Yeah. So, we we went through all that. But it was really the even before the But it was really the even before the But it was really the even before the baby was born. And I can remember the baby was born. And I can remember the baby was born. And I can remember the Lord getting a hold of me one day with Lord getting a hold of me one day with Lord getting a hold of me one day with the word, which is always rather the word, which is always rather the word, which is always rather convicting. And it was that verse, do convicting. And it was that verse, do convicting. And it was that verse, do not be like the horse or the mule who not be like the horse or the mule who not be like the horse or the mule who have to be controlled by bitten bridal have to be controlled by bitten bridal have to be controlled by bitten bridal or they will not come to you.

or they will not come to you. or they will not come to you. >> Yeah. And I just felt this deep >> Yeah. And I just felt this deep >> Yeah. And I just felt this deep conviction of, oh yeah, you followed conviction of, oh yeah, you followed conviction of, oh yeah, you followed your husband. You came, but you're your husband. You came, but you're your husband. You came, but you're coming like a mule coming like a mule coming like a mule who's being controlled by bitten bridal who's being controlled by bitten bridal who's being controlled by bitten bridal to get there. And the Lord just started to get there. And the Lord just started to get there. And the Lord just started exposing maybe your problem isn't, you exposing maybe your problem isn't, you exposing maybe your problem isn't, you know, your circumstances, but your know, your circumstances, but your know, your circumstances, but your heart. And I think that's what marriage heart. And I think that's what marriage heart. And I think that's what marriage really exposes a lot of the time. really exposes a lot of the time. really exposes a lot of the time. >> Yeah. So when you think about your >> Yeah. So when you think about your >> Yeah. So when you think about your marriage and and how has that changed marriage and and how has that changed marriage and and how has that changed like how have you grown in even your like how have you grown in even your like how have you grown in even your understanding understanding understanding um of your husband and like what's come um of your husband and like what's come um of your husband and like what's come with that maturity of 45 years. Here's with that maturity of 45 years. Here's with that maturity of 45 years. Here's what I love that you even just said what I love that you even just said what I love that you even just said there's still the up and downs. You know there's still the up and downs. You know there's still the up and downs. You know you you talk about these valleys and I you you talk about these valleys and I you you talk about these valleys and I think that's really helpful for people think that's really helpful for people think that's really helpful for people to hear because if you're in a valley to hear because if you're in a valley to hear because if you're in a valley right now, well, you might just be right now, well, you might just be right now, well, you might just be getting ready to go back up the hill. So getting ready to go back up the hill. So getting ready to go back up the hill. So that's actually encouraging. Um but not that's actually encouraging. Um but not that's actually encouraging. Um but not to think you're going to always stay on to think you're going to always stay on to think you're going to always stay on the mountain top. So So what lessons the mountain top. So So what lessons the mountain top. So So what lessons have you learned in those 45 years? Um have you learned in those 45 years? Um have you learned in those 45 years? Um and how has that changed as you look and how has that changed as you look and how has that changed as you look back?

back? back? >> I think I think as we go through seasons >> I think I think as we go through seasons >> I think I think as we go through seasons of life, too, like Dave and I were doing of life, too, like Dave and I were doing of life, too, like Dave and I were doing ministry together and we were loving it. ministry together and we were loving it. ministry together and we were loving it. Like this is so fun. And then we start Like this is so fun. And then we start Like this is so fun. And then we start having babies and I start pulling back having babies and I start pulling back having babies and I start pulling back and I'm home more and suddenly I feel and I'm home more and suddenly I feel and I'm home more and suddenly I feel like wait you're still conquering the like wait you're still conquering the like wait you're still conquering the world and you're leaving me at home by world and you're leaving me at home by world and you're leaving me at home by myself and I want to change the world myself and I want to change the world myself and I want to change the world too and it feels it can feel like wait too and it feels it can feel like wait too and it feels it can feel like wait what's happening you have no time you're what's happening you have no time you're what's happening you have no time you're tired as a young mom. So, I think that tired as a young mom. So, I think that tired as a young mom. So, I think that season of having young kids is really season of having young kids is really season of having young kids is really hard, hard, hard, >> man. If I didn't have my friends and >> man. If I didn't have my friends and >> man. If I didn't have my friends and Jesus and the Bible and a good community Jesus and the Bible and a good community Jesus and the Bible and a good community and a church, I don't know what I would and a church, I don't know what I would and a church, I don't know what I would have done. And and I I talked to a lot have done. And and I I talked to a lot have done. And and I I talked to a lot of women, too, that are empty nesters or of women, too, that are empty nesters or of women, too, that are empty nesters or maybe they've gone through teenage years maybe they've gone through teenage years maybe they've gone through teenage years where you're figuring things out. And where you're figuring things out. And where you're figuring things out. And so, those stages are really important. so, those stages are really important. so, those stages are really important. But I think what I can tend to do, and But I think what I can tend to do, and But I think what I can tend to do, and as I've matured, as I've matured, as I've matured, I think maybe one of the things I'm I think maybe one of the things I'm I think maybe one of the things I'm realizing now is when I start to feel realizing now is when I start to feel realizing now is when I start to feel dissatisfied with Dave, I do an inner dissatisfied with Dave, I do an inner dissatisfied with Dave, I do an inner inspection inspection inspection because I can catch myself complaining because I can catch myself complaining because I can catch myself complaining and grumbling about Dave. We all do and grumbling about Dave. We all do and grumbling about Dave. We all do that. We can do it about our kids, our that. We can do it about our kids, our that. We can do it about our kids, our life, our circumstances. But when I find life, our circumstances. But when I find life, our circumstances. But when I find myself being bugged by him, like I myself being bugged by him, like I myself being bugged by him, like I talked to this one lady yesterday. I was talked to this one lady yesterday. I was talked to this one lady yesterday. I was at Evereve getting getting some jeans at Evereve getting getting some jeans at Evereve getting getting some jeans and she was asking me about like, "So, and she was asking me about like, "So, and she was asking me about like, "So, what do you do? You do marriage? What?"

what do you do? You do marriage? What?" what do you do? You do marriage? What?" And so I told her a little bit that Dave And so I told her a little bit that Dave And so I told her a little bit that Dave and I do marriage conferences and we and I do marriage conferences and we and I do marriage conferences and we have podcast and um she says, "Well, I have podcast and um she says, "Well, I have podcast and um she says, "Well, I hate marriage. I hate it. This is my hate marriage. I hate it. This is my hate marriage. I hate it. This is my second marriage and I can't stand the second marriage and I can't stand the second marriage and I can't stand the way he puts the dishes in the cabinet." way he puts the dishes in the cabinet." way he puts the dishes in the cabinet." And so I'm I'm thinking to myself, "Oh And so I'm I'm thinking to myself, "Oh And so I'm I'm thinking to myself, "Oh man, I understand." Because you can get man, I understand." Because you can get man, I understand." Because you can get in this rut of negativity, seeing your in this rut of negativity, seeing your in this rut of negativity, seeing your spouse in a way that's so negative and spouse in a way that's so negative and spouse in a way that's so negative and then you become resentful because that's then you become resentful because that's then you become resentful because that's what I feel like I did. I was angry at what I feel like I did. I was angry at what I feel like I did. I was angry at the circumstances and then my anger the circumstances and then my anger the circumstances and then my anger turned to bitterness. My bitterness turned to bitterness. My bitterness turned to bitterness. My bitterness turned to resentment. And this is year turned to resentment. And this is year turned to resentment. And this is year 10. And then my resentment turned to 10. And then my resentment turned to 10. And then my resentment turned to nothingness. nothingness. nothingness. And if that's going on in your marriage, And if that's going on in your marriage, And if that's going on in your marriage, it should be like the engine light it should be like the engine light it should be like the engine light flashing on the lights of your of your flashing on the lights of your of your flashing on the lights of your of your car, like get this checked. Get it car, like get this checked. Get it car, like get this checked. Get it checked. Because when that happens, you checked. Because when that happens, you checked. Because when that happens, you should be thinking, "Oh, this isn't should be thinking, "Oh, this isn't should be thinking, "Oh, this isn't where we're supposed to be." And God is where we're supposed to be." And God is where we're supposed to be." And God is putting that flashing light to get your putting that flashing light to get your putting that flashing light to get your attention. And honestly, Melissa, here's attention. And honestly, Melissa, here's attention. And honestly, Melissa, here's what happened with this book. This is what happened with this book. This is what happened with this book. This is the craziest story. This is the where the craziest story. This is the where the craziest story. This is the where the book starts because the book starts because the book starts because now we're like at this stage of now we're like at this stage of now we're like at this stage of marriage. I think we were like 20 years marriage. I think we were like 20 years marriage. I think we were like 20 years in and we had some all our kids were in in and we had some all our kids were in in and we had some all our kids were in elementary school but things then take a elementary school but things then take a elementary school but things then take a different kind of busy. You're taking different kind of busy. You're taking different kind of busy. You're taking them to all their activities.

them to all their activities. them to all their activities. And so Dave and I were asked to I was And so Dave and I were asked to I was And so Dave and I were asked to I was asked to speak to a women's group at our asked to speak to a women's group at our asked to speak to a women's group at our church and I was busy. I'm like Dave you church and I was busy. I'm like Dave you church and I was busy. I'm like Dave you want to do it with me? It'd be so much want to do it with me? It'd be so much want to do it with me? It'd be so much fun to do it with you because he's the fun to do it with you because he's the fun to do it with you because he's the pastor. Like the women will love it and pastor. Like the women will love it and pastor. Like the women will love it and he's just a great communicator. And so he's just a great communicator. And so he's just a great communicator. And so he's like, "Yeah, I'll do it with you." he's like, "Yeah, I'll do it with you." he's like, "Yeah, I'll do it with you." So I'm all excited like, "This is going So I'm all excited like, "This is going So I'm all excited like, "This is going to be fun." And then I said, "Like, to be fun." And then I said, "Like, to be fun." And then I said, "Like, like, what do you want to talk about?" like, what do you want to talk about?" like, what do you want to talk about?" He goes, "I don't know. Let's just wing He goes, "I don't know. Let's just wing He goes, "I don't know. Let's just wing it." Like, "Oh, okay." So we're we're it." Like, "Oh, okay." So we're we're it." Like, "Oh, okay." So we're we're sitting on these stools and um Dave gets sitting on these stools and um Dave gets sitting on these stools and um Dave gets super amped up. My husband has a lot of super amped up. My husband has a lot of super amped up. My husband has a lot of energy and passion and he gets up off of energy and passion and he gets up off of energy and passion and he gets up off of his stool and he starts pacing on this his stool and he starts pacing on this his stool and he starts pacing on this stage in front of these women and he's stage in front of these women and he's stage in front of these women and he's saying things I have never heard him saying things I have never heard him saying things I have never heard him share in our 20 years, like ever. And he share in our 20 years, like ever. And he share in our 20 years, like ever. And he goes, "Women, I don't even know what you goes, "Women, I don't even know what you goes, "Women, I don't even know what you if you get what it's like for us as men, if you get what it's like for us as men, if you get what it's like for us as men, because usually as little kids, we have because usually as little kids, we have because usually as little kids, we have a parent cheering for us or a a parent cheering for us or a a parent cheering for us or a grandparent or somebody saying, "Good grandparent or somebody saying, "Good grandparent or somebody saying, "Good job. Good job. You're good at this." And job. Good job. You're good at this." And job. Good job. You're good at this." And he goes, "And then we get into our thing he goes, "And then we get into our thing he goes, "And then we get into our thing like what we're good at sports, school, like what we're good at sports, school, like what we're good at sports, school, whatever." And we have a teacher, coach, whatever." And we have a teacher, coach, whatever." And we have a teacher, coach, somebody saying, "Hey, you're good at somebody saying, "Hey, you're good at somebody saying, "Hey, you're good at that." And they cheer for us. And he that." And they cheer for us. And he that." And they cheer for us. And he said, "I played college football as a said, "I played college football as a said, "I played college football as a quarterback. So on Saturdays, I have quarterback. So on Saturdays, I have quarterback. So on Saturdays, I have people saying, Dave P Dave Wilson, people saying, Dave P Dave Wilson, people saying, Dave P Dave Wilson, you're the man." And then he says, "And you're the man." And then he says, "And you're the man." And then he says, "And then I meet Anne and basically she then I meet Anne and basically she then I meet Anne and basically she says,"Of all the men in the world, I says,"Of all the men in the world, I says,"Of all the men in the world, I choose you, Dave Wilson. You're the choose you, Dave Wilson. You're the choose you, Dave Wilson. You're the man." And I'm sitting on this school man." And I'm sitting on this school man." And I'm sitting on this school thinking, "Oh, wow. I've never heard him thinking, "Oh, wow. I've never heard him thinking, "Oh, wow. I've never heard him say this. This is cool. I've never say this. This is cool. I've never say this. This is cool. I've never thought of that." And then Melissa, his

thought of that." And then Melissa, his thought of that." And then Melissa, his entire demeanor changes and he gets real entire demeanor changes and he gets real entire demeanor changes and he gets real soft and goes, "And then you know what soft and goes, "And then you know what soft and goes, "And then you know what it's like for us as men and for me as a it's like for us as men and for me as a it's like for us as men and for me as a man now. It feels like I walk in the man now. It feels like I walk in the man now. It feels like I walk in the door at the end of the day and all I door at the end of the day and all I door at the end of the day and all I hear is boo. hear is boo. hear is boo. [Applause] [Applause] [Applause] I'm sitting on this stool like wait, I'm sitting on this stool like wait, I'm sitting on this stool like wait, what what just happened? What is what is what what just happened? What is what is what what just happened? What is what is he talking about? he talking about? he talking about? >> He's never ever shared anything like >> He's never ever shared anything like >> He's never ever shared anything like this to me in our lives ever. Ever. I'm this to me in our lives ever. Ever. I'm this to me in our lives ever. Ever. I'm telling him stuff all the time, but he telling him stuff all the time, but he telling him stuff all the time, but he very seldom says stuff to me. And so I very seldom says stuff to me. And so I very seldom says stuff to me. And so I don't even know how we ended. We get in don't even know how we ended. We get in don't even know how we ended. We get in the car and I'm like, "You think I boo the car and I'm like, "You think I boo the car and I'm like, "You think I boo you? I am helping you." Like I am you? I am helping you." Like I am you? I am helping you." Like I am helping you to be better. I'm just helping you to be better. I'm just helping you to be better. I'm just pointing out things that could be pointing out things that could be pointing out things that could be better. And then he goes, "But Ann, is better. And then he goes, "But Ann, is better. And then he goes, "But Ann, is it even working?" I'm like, "No, no, it even working?" I'm like, "No, no, it even working?" I'm like, "No, no, it's not working. So I need to say it it's not working. So I need to say it it's not working. So I need to say it more often or just like, you know, say more often or just like, you know, say more often or just like, you know, say it louder." And he goes, "I don't know.

it louder." And he goes, "I don't know. it louder." And he goes, "I don't know. Here's what it feels like for And he's Here's what it feels like for And he's Here's what it feels like for And he's never said any of this, Melissa, ever in never said any of this, Melissa, ever in never said any of this, Melissa, ever in our lives. And it just feels like you our lives. And it just feels like you our lives. And it just feels like you have to tweak me all the time. You have have to tweak me all the time. You have have to tweak me all the time. You have to fix this, fix that, point out that, to fix this, fix that, point out that, to fix this, fix that, point out that, point out this. Like I'm a like I'm a point out this. Like I'm a like I'm a point out this. Like I'm a like I'm a child and you're trying to like maneuver child and you're trying to like maneuver child and you're trying to like maneuver and fix me to become this man that you and fix me to become this man that you and fix me to become this man that you want me to be. And I said, "Everybody's want me to be. And I said, "Everybody's want me to be. And I said, "Everybody's cheering you all the time." Which I cheering you all the time." Which I cheering you all the time." Which I really They did. Oh, Dave, you're really They did. Oh, Dave, you're really They did. Oh, Dave, you're amazing. amazing. amazing. not realizing that my voice is the most not realizing that my voice is the most not realizing that my voice is the most important voice and my words are the important voice and my words are the important voice and my words are the most important words. And I thought most important words. And I thought most important words. And I thought everybody nobody needs I he doesn't need everybody nobody needs I he doesn't need everybody nobody needs I he doesn't need that for me. He's getting it. I didn't that for me. He's getting it. I didn't that for me. He's getting it. I didn't realize that I was having the opposite realize that I was having the opposite realize that I was having the opposite effect. And honestly, I didn't mean to effect. And honestly, I didn't mean to effect. And honestly, I didn't mean to hurt Dave. I really I thought I was hurt Dave. I really I thought I was hurt Dave. I really I thought I was helping him, just pointing out some helping him, just pointing out some helping him, just pointing out some things that he could be better in. things that he could be better in. things that he could be better in. >> I'm hearing this and I'm feeling so >> I'm hearing this and I'm feeling so >> I'm hearing this and I'm feeling so convicted. I mean, like, yeah, you're convicted. I mean, like, yeah, you're convicted. I mean, like, yeah, you're just helping him. That's what we're just helping him. That's what we're just helping him. That's what we're supposed to do. Help them know what supposed to do. Help them know what supposed to do. Help them know what they're doing wrong. You know, I'm I'm they're doing wrong. You know, I'm I'm they're doing wrong. You know, I'm I'm really like, oh. And then to hear how it really like, oh. And then to hear how it really like, oh. And then to hear how it was interpreted by him.

was interpreted by him. was interpreted by him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> As boo. Yeah. I think it's the princess >> As boo. Yeah. I think it's the princess >> As boo. Yeah. I think it's the princess bride. Boo. Boo. Whatever. bride. Boo. Boo. Whatever. bride. Boo. Boo. Whatever. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. >> I'm like, oh, >> I'm like, oh, >> I'm like, oh, >> okay. That is really interesting because >> okay. That is really interesting because >> okay. That is really interesting because I do think we we feel like it's our role I do think we we feel like it's our role I do think we we feel like it's our role to help by fixing them. to help by fixing them. to help by fixing them. >> Yeah. There's things that we can see >> Yeah. There's things that we can see >> Yeah. There's things that we can see that would be helpful for them if they that would be helpful for them if they that would be helpful for them if they change or helpful for us. And I don't change or helpful for us. And I don't change or helpful for us. And I don't and I mean scripture Proverbs 18:21 says and I mean scripture Proverbs 18:21 says and I mean scripture Proverbs 18:21 says the power of life and death is in the the power of life and death is in the the power of life and death is in the tongue. And even like live, I mean, tongue. And even like live, I mean, tongue. And even like live, I mean, you've heard these verses, Melissa. you've heard these verses, Melissa. you've heard these verses, Melissa. Proverbs 21:19. It's better to live Proverbs 21:19. It's better to live Proverbs 21:19. It's better to live alone alone alone >> in a desert than with a quarrelome and >> in a desert than with a quarrelome and >> in a desert than with a quarrelome and nagging wife. But even this one, nagging wife. But even this one, nagging wife. But even this one, Proverbs 16:24, gracious words are a Proverbs 16:24, gracious words are a Proverbs 16:24, gracious words are a honeycomb, honeycomb, honeycomb, >> sweet to the soul, and healing to the >> sweet to the soul, and healing to the >> sweet to the soul, and healing to the bones. bones. bones. >> Like even that. And I I I think the >> Like even that. And I I I think the >> Like even that. And I I I think the thing that for most of us as women, we thing that for most of us as women, we thing that for most of us as women, we don't want to hurt them. We're not don't want to hurt them. We're not don't want to hurt them. We're not meaning to harm them in any way, but I meaning to harm them in any way, but I meaning to harm them in any way, but I don't think we realize the power that we don't think we realize the power that we don't think we realize the power that we have and the power of our words, not have and the power of our words, not have and the power of our words, not only for our over our husbands, but our only for our over our husbands, but our only for our over our husbands, but our friends, our kids, our parents, all of friends, our kids, our parents, all of friends, our kids, our parents, all of that. It's really we have the power to that. It's really we have the power to that. It's really we have the power to change things for good or for bad.

change things for good or for bad. change things for good or for bad. >> When you just said that, I was thinking >> When you just said that, I was thinking >> When you just said that, I was thinking I think that the proverb is um rash I think that the proverb is um rash I think that the proverb is um rash words pierce like the sword, but the words pierce like the sword, but the words pierce like the sword, but the tongue of the wise brings healing. tongue of the wise brings healing. tongue of the wise brings healing. >> Healing. And I just think whether it's >> Healing. And I just think whether it's >> Healing. And I just think whether it's our kids or our husband, often those our kids or our husband, often those our kids or our husband, often those closest to us are where our rash words closest to us are where our rash words closest to us are where our rash words >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> are most likely to come and to hear >> are most likely to come and to hear >> are most likely to come and to hear their like sword thrust. their like sword thrust. their like sword thrust. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, it's so convicting to think, >> You know, it's so convicting to think, >> You know, it's so convicting to think, wow, the tongue has the power to pierce wow, the tongue has the power to pierce wow, the tongue has the power to pierce like the sword, but it also has the like the sword, but it also has the like the sword, but it also has the power to heal. Um, and I know so, so I power to heal. Um, and I know so, so I power to heal. Um, and I know so, so I know you talk to women all over. You know you talk to women all over. You know you talk to women all over. You know, y'all have done these marriage know, y'all have done these marriage know, y'all have done these marriage conferences for years. Are there any conferences for years. Are there any conferences for years. Are there any things that rise to the surface that things that rise to the surface that things that rise to the surface that women come to you saying, "Yeah, but women come to you saying, "Yeah, but women come to you saying, "Yeah, but this is what I really if this could this is what I really if this could this is what I really if this could change, everything in my life would change, everything in my life would change, everything in my life would change." Are there are there any change." Are there are there any change." Are there are there any patterns you've seen as you talk to patterns you've seen as you talk to patterns you've seen as you talk to women? women? women? >> Yeah, and I'd love to see what you say >> Yeah, and I'd love to see what you say >> Yeah, and I'd love to see what you say to that, too. One of the things that to that, too. One of the things that to that, too. One of the things that I'll start with myself, like my I'll start with myself, like my I'll start with myself, like my husband's a pastor, but I had this idea husband's a pastor, but I had this idea husband's a pastor, but I had this idea of what it looked like to spiritually of what it looked like to spiritually of what it looked like to spiritually lead or our kids and to kind of pour lead or our kids and to kind of pour lead or our kids and to kind of pour into our kids. So that spiritual into our kids. So that spiritual into our kids. So that spiritual leadership, I felt like he brought all leadership, I felt like he brought all leadership, I felt like he brought all of his energy to the outside and not the of his energy to the outside and not the of his energy to the outside and not the inside of our home. You know, I'm like, inside of our home. You know, I'm like, inside of our home. You know, I'm like, can you just initiate prayer? You and he can you just initiate prayer? You and he can you just initiate prayer? You and he did, but I just had this standard of did, but I just had this standard of did, but I just had this standard of what it should look like. Um, and he what it should look like. Um, and he what it should look like. Um, and he just seemed like it was an afterthought.

just seemed like it was an afterthought. just seemed like it was an afterthought. I wanted him to be the one to do that. I wanted him to be the one to do that. I wanted him to be the one to do that. So, that's one of them I think that I've So, that's one of them I think that I've So, that's one of them I think that I've heard a lot of women. Wo, a lot of times heard a lot of women. Wo, a lot of times heard a lot of women. Wo, a lot of times women want their husbands to have women want their husbands to have women want their husbands to have friends, accountability, that they're friends, accountability, that they're friends, accountability, that they're not the ones always dragging the family not the ones always dragging the family not the ones always dragging the family to church. Those are some of the big to church. Those are some of the big to church. Those are some of the big ones that I would say um addressing some ones that I would say um addressing some ones that I would say um addressing some of their maybe their laziness. what we of their maybe their laziness. what we of their maybe their laziness. what we can see is laziness, like stop playing can see is laziness, like stop playing can see is laziness, like stop playing um video games or stop watching ESPN. um video games or stop watching ESPN. um video games or stop watching ESPN. And And And >> so I think we have this whole list of >> so I think we have this whole list of >> so I think we have this whole list of things. I want you to talk to me. And so things. I want you to talk to me. And so things. I want you to talk to me. And so I think we have a list, but it's I think we have a list, but it's I think we have a list, but it's interesting because when I I'm a visual interesting because when I I'm a visual interesting because when I I'm a visual learner and teacher and so when I hear learner and teacher and so when I hear learner and teacher and so when I hear Oh, by the way, let me say this. When I Oh, by the way, let me say this. When I Oh, by the way, let me say this. When I got home from that car trip home from got home from that car trip home from got home from that car trip home from the boo story, I went before God. I got the boo story, I went before God. I got the boo story, I went before God. I got I went in my room. I shut the door and I I went in my room. I shut the door and I I went in my room. I shut the door and I got on my knees and I have a got on my knees and I have a got on my knees and I have a relationship with God. I he I love him. relationship with God. I he I love him. relationship with God. I he I love him. He's my father, God, the alpha, the He's my father, God, the alpha, the He's my father, God, the alpha, the omega, but I also vent everything to him omega, but I also vent everything to him omega, but I also vent everything to him as a daughter like Lord, can you believe as a daughter like Lord, can you believe as a daughter like Lord, can you believe that? Like that was embarrassing and that? Like that was embarrassing and that? Like that was embarrassing and humiliating and how would he, you know, humiliating and how would he, you know, humiliating and how would he, you know, how could he say this? And then at the how could he say this? And then at the how could he say this? And then at the end of my rant, because Psalms does that end of my rant, because Psalms does that end of my rant, because Psalms does that where they David pours out his heart where they David pours out his heart where they David pours out his heart before God and then at the end I said, before God and then at the end I said, before God and then at the end I said, "God, do I boo Dave? Do I?"

"God, do I boo Dave? Do I?" "God, do I boo Dave? Do I?" And I felt I felt this conviction, not a And I felt I felt this conviction, not a And I felt I felt this conviction, not a condemnation or shame, but I felt like condemnation or shame, but I felt like condemnation or shame, but I felt like God was saying, man, yes. And start God was saying, man, yes. And start God was saying, man, yes. And start paying attention to what you think about paying attention to what you think about paying attention to what you think about him and what you say about him. And man, him and what you say about him. And man, him and what you say about him. And man, that was an ugly eyeopener. But one of that was an ugly eyeopener. But one of that was an ugly eyeopener. But one of the things that I did was cuz I was the things that I did was cuz I was the things that I did was cuz I was trying to communicate to women what this trying to communicate to women what this trying to communicate to women what this can feel like to their men. So Dave and can feel like to their men. So Dave and can feel like to their men. So Dave and I were doing a series at our church on I were doing a series at our church on I were doing a series at our church on marriage. And I put these two plants on marriage. And I put these two plants on marriage. And I put these two plants on the stage. And I said, "As women, we're the stage. And I said, "As women, we're the stage. And I said, "As women, we're going to have these plants be men for going to have these plants be men for going to have these plants be men for this illustration." So we look at this this illustration." So we look at this this illustration." So we look at this plant like this one's amazing. And I plant like this one's amazing. And I plant like this one's amazing. And I look at this one. It's lush. It has he look at this one. It's lush. It has he look at this one. It's lush. It has he has all the qualities I was looking for. has all the qualities I was looking for. has all the qualities I was looking for. And we marry him. We're like, "Look at And we marry him. We're like, "Look at And we marry him. We're like, "Look at him. Like he's amazing." And then we him. Like he's amazing." And then we him. Like he's amazing." And then we look a little closer and we see this look a little closer and we see this look a little closer and we see this little brown leaf. And so we pull out little brown leaf. And so we pull out little brown leaf. And so we pull out our pruners because we think it's my our pruners because we think it's my our pruners because we think it's my job. Isn't that helper word? Aren't I job. Isn't that helper word? Aren't I job. Isn't that helper word? Aren't I the helper? the helper? the helper? >> And so my job is to help him realize >> And so my job is to help him realize >> And so my job is to help him realize that he has this brown leaf because he that he has this brown leaf because he that he has this brown leaf because he used to be super romantic. And now he used to be super romantic. And now he used to be super romantic. And now he says nothing. And all he does is watch says nothing. And all he does is watch says nothing. And all he does is watch TV at night. And so we clip off that TV at night. And so we clip off that TV at night. And so we clip off that that little leaf and we throw it away.

that little leaf and we throw it away. that little leaf and we throw it away. And they're like, "Wait, this has more. And they're like, "Wait, this has more. And they're like, "Wait, this has more. It has a lot of brown leaves." So we get It has a lot of brown leaves." So we get It has a lot of brown leaves." So we get out our hedge clippers and I start out our hedge clippers and I start out our hedge clippers and I start chopping away because you don't lead. chopping away because you don't lead. chopping away because you don't lead. You don't initiate prayer. You don't You don't initiate prayer. You don't You don't initiate prayer. You don't listen to me. You never talk. I don't listen to me. You never talk. I don't listen to me. You never talk. I don't know your heart. I want you to ask me know your heart. I want you to ask me know your heart. I want you to ask me questions. I want you to We have all questions. I want you to We have all questions. I want you to We have all these things we list. Meet my needs. And these things we list. Meet my needs. And these things we list. Meet my needs. And we're chopping away to the point where we're chopping away to the point where we're chopping away to the point where there's nothing left but this stump. there's nothing left but this stump. there's nothing left but this stump. And the whole time we were thinking we And the whole time we were thinking we And the whole time we were thinking we were helping him. And yet when we were were helping him. And yet when we were were helping him. And yet when we were done with this illustration, there was done with this illustration, there was done with this illustration, there was it's in a thousand seat auditorium. it's in a thousand seat auditorium. it's in a thousand seat auditorium. There's this man and woman sitting there There's this man and woman sitting there There's this man and woman sitting there all by themselves. No one else left. So all by themselves. No one else left. So all by themselves. No one else left. So I went over to talk to them. They were I went over to talk to them. They were I went over to talk to them. They were sitting in these chairs in their 80s. sitting in these chairs in their 80s. sitting in these chairs in their 80s. They're in their 80s. And this man has They're in their 80s. And this man has They're in their 80s. And this man has his head in his hands and I can see his head in his hands and I can see his head in his hands and I can see these these teardrops plopping on the these these teardrops plopping on the these these teardrops plopping on the floor. And she said, "I don't know floor. And she said, "I don't know floor. And she said, "I don't know what's happening. He's been crying since what's happening. He's been crying since what's happening. He's been crying since you chopped up that plant." And I asked you chopped up that plant." And I asked you chopped up that plant." And I asked him like, "What what are you feeling?

him like, "What what are you feeling? him like, "What what are you feeling? What's going on?" and he lifts his head What's going on?" and he lifts his head What's going on?" and he lifts his head with these tears just dropping off his with these tears just dropping off his with these tears just dropping off his face and he points to the plant on the face and he points to the plant on the face and he points to the plant on the stage and he says, "That stump is me." stage and he says, "That stump is me." stage and he says, "That stump is me." And his wife turned to me and she said, And his wife turned to me and she said, And his wife turned to me and she said, "I had no idea. He's never said "I had no idea. He's never said "I had no idea. He's never said anything. I really thought I was helping anything. I really thought I was helping anything. I really thought I was helping him." him." him." And I think that's just the point of we And I think that's just the point of we And I think that's just the point of we do mean to help. We're hoping that our do mean to help. We're hoping that our do mean to help. We're hoping that our words will encourage. I thought my words words will encourage. I thought my words words will encourage. I thought my words would motivate Dave, like I'll show her. would motivate Dave, like I'll show her. would motivate Dave, like I'll show her. And what they did is they pushed him And what they did is they pushed him And what they did is they pushed him away. And he and I think we all tend to away. And he and I think we all tend to away. And he and I think we all tend to go to where people cheer us and believe go to where people cheer us and believe go to where people cheer us and believe in us. And that wasn't happening in our in us. And that wasn't happening in our in us. And that wasn't happening in our home at the time. home at the time. home at the time. >> That is really that that imagery is >> That is really that that imagery is >> That is really that that imagery is going to stay with me of just this going to stay with me of just this going to stay with me of just this visual learner. visual learner. visual learner. >> Yeah. I'm a visual, too. I'm like, "Oo, >> Yeah. I'm a visual, too. I'm like, "Oo, >> Yeah. I'm a visual, too. I'm like, "Oo, that's powerful." I mean, just what what that's powerful." I mean, just what what that's powerful." I mean, just what what am I what am I trying to build? Yeah. I am I what am I trying to build? Yeah. I am I what am I trying to build? Yeah. I mean, what is it? The foolish woman, um, mean, what is it? The foolish woman, um, mean, what is it? The foolish woman, um, the wise woman builds her house, but the the wise woman builds her house, but the the wise woman builds her house, but the foolish woman tears down with her own foolish woman tears down with her own foolish woman tears down with her own hands.

hands. hands. >> Yes. That's it. >> Yes. That's it. >> Yes. That's it. >> Owned. Yeah. And it's that visual of >> Owned. Yeah. And it's that visual of >> Owned. Yeah. And it's that visual of that. Um, and that's really interesting that. Um, and that's really interesting that. Um, and that's really interesting what you said cuz that's the exact thing what you said cuz that's the exact thing what you said cuz that's the exact thing I hear from women, their good longings I hear from women, their good longings I hear from women, their good longings about spiritual leadership. Like these about spiritual leadership. Like these about spiritual leadership. Like these women are not I've never had a woman women are not I've never had a woman women are not I've never had a woman say, "Well, if he just brought home six say, "Well, if he just brought home six say, "Well, if he just brought home six figures, then I'd be happy." I you know figures, then I'd be happy." I you know figures, then I'd be happy." I you know now now I think some men now maybe maybe now now I think some men now maybe maybe now now I think some men now maybe maybe some are feeling that pressure too. They some are feeling that pressure too. They some are feeling that pressure too. They probably do because of what she's probably do because of what she's probably do because of what she's spending. They might be feeling that spending. They might be feeling that spending. They might be feeling that pressure or whatever. pressure or whatever. pressure or whatever. >> Amazon package is coming. >> Amazon package is coming. >> Amazon package is coming. >> They might they might feel it for those >> They might they might feel it for those >> They might they might feel it for those reasons. But the things I hear are reasons. But the things I hear are reasons. But the things I hear are exactly what you said. Although I was exactly what you said. Although I was exactly what you said. Although I was laughing because when you mentioned the laughing because when you mentioned the laughing because when you mentioned the male friendships I was like huh. Yeah. male friendships I was like huh. Yeah. male friendships I was like huh. Yeah. We want them to have male friendships We want them to have male friendships We want them to have male friendships and accountability so they'll do the and accountability so they'll do the and accountability so they'll do the work of changing them so we don't have work of changing them so we don't have work of changing them so we don't have to anymore. to anymore. to anymore. >> Yes. Yes, it really comes back to some >> Yes. Yes, it really comes back to some >> Yes. Yes, it really comes back to some of the same things I think and of the same things I think and of the same things I think and um and those are good things. So, I um and those are good things. So, I um and those are good things. So, I think this is I'm going to take a break think this is I'm going to take a break think this is I'm going to take a break in just a minute to hear from our in just a minute to hear from our in just a minute to hear from our sponsor, but I this is what I want to sponsor, but I this is what I want to sponsor, but I this is what I want to discuss when we when we come back is discuss when we when we come back is discuss when we when we come back is okay, how do we entrust those things to okay, how do we entrust those things to okay, how do we entrust those things to the Lord and wait on him? But then is the Lord and wait on him? But then is the Lord and wait on him? But then is there a time when there's sinful there a time when there's sinful there a time when there's sinful behaviors involved that there is a right behaviors involved that there is a right behaviors involved that there is a right way to confront you know I mean these way to confront you know I mean these way to confront you know I mean these yeah these are these are really yeah these are these are really yeah these are these are really difficult topics um and and marriages difficult topics um and and marriages difficult topics um and and marriages are going through different different are going through different different are going through different different things. So I am actually I I I genuinely

things. So I am actually I I I genuinely things. So I am actually I I I genuinely am just feeling convicted for how I want am just feeling convicted for how I want am just feeling convicted for how I want to use my words um with my husband and to use my words um with my husband and to use my words um with my husband and and even even there might be times to and even even there might be times to and even even there might be times to correct but to think daily have I told correct but to think daily have I told correct but to think daily have I told him what I love about him because the him what I love about him because the him what I love about him because the reality is I deeply love him. There are reality is I deeply love him. There are reality is I deeply love him. There are things I just think the world of him but things I just think the world of him but things I just think the world of him but sometimes I zero in. And I I remember sometimes I zero in. And I I remember sometimes I zero in. And I I remember Elizabeth Elliott said um if a wife just Elizabeth Elliott said um if a wife just Elizabeth Elliott said um if a wife just genuinely adores 80% of her husband, she genuinely adores 80% of her husband, she genuinely adores 80% of her husband, she should feel really blessed. should feel really blessed. should feel really blessed. And and and she said, "But it's really And and and she said, "But it's really And and and she said, "But it's really easy to fixate on the 20%." That isn't easy to fixate on the 20%." That isn't easy to fixate on the 20%." That isn't up to your standard. She's like, "Or you up to your standard. She's like, "Or you up to your standard. She's like, "Or you can choose to enjoy the 80%." can choose to enjoy the 80%." can choose to enjoy the 80%." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And that has always kind of stuck with >> And that has always kind of stuck with >> And that has always kind of stuck with me. But but the reality is we are me. But but the reality is we are me. But but the reality is we are sinners and we're married to sinners. sinners and we're married to sinners. sinners and we're married to sinners. Um, so how how do we as wives as we live Um, so how how do we as wives as we live Um, so how how do we as wives as we live side by side? There's there is a right side by side? There's there is a right side by side? There's there is a right place, you know, the Bible Bible tells place, you know, the Bible Bible tells place, you know, the Bible Bible tells us, you know, that we're to confront one us, you know, that we're to confront one us, you know, that we're to confront one another. How do we confront sin? And another. How do we confront sin? And another. How do we confront sin? And then when is it just time to overlook an then when is it just time to overlook an then when is it just time to overlook an offense? Like what's the difference offense? Like what's the difference offense? Like what's the difference between those two? It's a wisdom issue.

between those two? It's a wisdom issue. between those two? It's a wisdom issue. Um, but do you have any wisdom to offer Um, but do you have any wisdom to offer Um, but do you have any wisdom to offer us on how to discern between those two? us on how to discern between those two? us on how to discern between those two? >> Yeah. First, let me say if any of you >> Yeah. First, let me say if any of you >> Yeah. First, let me say if any of you are in an abusive situation where your are in an abusive situation where your are in an abusive situation where your husband is physically hurting you or husband is physically hurting you or husband is physically hurting you or your children or just very abusive, your children or just very abusive, your children or just very abusive, we're not saying just cheer him on. we're not saying just cheer him on. we're not saying just cheer him on. We're saying get yourself safe first, We're saying get yourself safe first, We're saying get yourself safe first, get your kids safe, and you need to get get your kids safe, and you need to get get your kids safe, and you need to get help. Like, that's the most important help. Like, that's the most important help. Like, that's the most important thing. We're talking about generally thing. We're talking about generally thing. We're talking about generally like goodwilled men who are they're they like goodwilled men who are they're they like goodwilled men who are they're they want a great marriage. They're trying want a great marriage. They're trying want a great marriage. They're trying their best. And so I just want to make their best. And so I just want to make their best. And so I just want to make sure that we're that you hear that. And sure that we're that you hear that. And sure that we're that you hear that. And then I think too, one of the things I then I think too, one of the things I then I think too, one of the things I felt like God was saying to me was um I felt like God was saying to me was um I felt like God was saying to me was um I I'm not a kind of the person that can I'm not a kind of the person that can I'm not a kind of the person that can fake it like, "Oh, you're amazing." I fake it like, "Oh, you're amazing." I fake it like, "Oh, you're amazing." I because I think there is a place where because I think there is a place where because I think there is a place where we do speak the truth in love. And we do speak the truth in love. And we do speak the truth in love. And that's really important. And I think I that's really important. And I think I that's really important. And I think I was afraid to lose my voice. Like I'm was afraid to lose my voice. Like I'm was afraid to lose my voice. Like I'm not going to be some fake, oh, you're not going to be some fake, oh, you're not going to be some fake, oh, you're amazing, Dave, and be resentful. So what amazing, Dave, and be resentful. So what amazing, Dave, and be resentful. So what does that look like? And so I felt like does that look like? And so I felt like does that look like? And so I felt like God was saying when I asked him and God was saying when I asked him and God was saying when I asked him and talked to him about that, I felt like he talked to him about that, I felt like he talked to him about that, I felt like he was saying um and find the greatness in was saying um and find the greatness in was saying um and find the greatness in Dave. And so that became my prayer.

Dave. And so that became my prayer. Dave. And so that became my prayer. Father, show me the greatness in Dave Father, show me the greatness in Dave Father, show me the greatness in Dave and then help me to communicate that. and then help me to communicate that. and then help me to communicate that. Just as you said, Melissa, it's easy to Just as you said, Melissa, it's easy to Just as you said, Melissa, it's easy to see good things that we don't even talk see good things that we don't even talk see good things that we don't even talk about. We take it for granted, but we about. We take it for granted, but we about. We take it for granted, but we point out the things that are negative. point out the things that are negative. point out the things that are negative. And so I started very simply by saying And so I started very simply by saying And so I started very simply by saying thank you to Dave. And this is this just thank you to Dave. And this is this just thank you to Dave. And this is this just shows how sinful I am. I'm so shows how sinful I am. I'm so shows how sinful I am. I'm so embarrassed. Like like hey hun thanks embarrassed. Like like hey hun thanks embarrassed. Like like hey hun thanks for bringing in the trash cans. Like for bringing in the trash cans. Like for bringing in the trash cans. Like okay it's that simple. You're now you're okay it's that simple. You're now you're okay it's that simple. You're now you're starting to look for what he's doing starting to look for what he's doing starting to look for what he's doing right or well. And so thank you felt right or well. And so thank you felt right or well. And so thank you felt like okay I can do that. I'm going to like okay I can do that. I'm going to like okay I can do that. I'm going to start thanking him for all these things. start thanking him for all these things. start thanking him for all these things. And here's why I didn't this is And here's why I didn't this is And here's why I didn't this is embarrassing. I didn't say thank you embarrassing. I didn't say thank you embarrassing. I didn't say thank you because I thought well who thanks me? I because I thought well who thanks me? I because I thought well who thanks me? I do everything around here. Do you hear do everything around here. Do you hear do everything around here. Do you hear you hear the pride and the arrogance in you hear the pride and the arrogance in you hear the pride and the arrogance in that? like who thanks me? You know who that? like who thanks me? You know who that? like who thanks me? You know who sees you? Jesus. Father God sees every sees you? Jesus. Father God sees every sees you? Jesus. Father God sees every single little thing you do and he's single little thing you do and he's single little thing you do and he's cheering you on. So I started out by cheering you on. So I started out by cheering you on. So I started out by saying thank you. And this one night we saying thank you. And this one night we saying thank you. And this one night we were having dinner and I said, "Hey were having dinner and I said, "Hey were having dinner and I said, "Hey guys, before we pray, I just want to say guys, before we pray, I just want to say guys, before we pray, I just want to say Dave, thanks for working so hard.

Dave, thanks for working so hard. Dave, thanks for working so hard. >> Like honestly, you work really hard to >> Like honestly, you work really hard to >> Like honestly, you work really hard to provide. Um you're a great provider and provide. Um you're a great provider and provide. Um you're a great provider and I appreciate how much work you put into I appreciate how much work you put into I appreciate how much work you put into doing the best at whatever you do." And doing the best at whatever you do." And doing the best at whatever you do." And the boys were like, "Mom, can we just the boys were like, "Mom, can we just the boys were like, "Mom, can we just eat? What's happening?" And Dave told me eat? What's happening?" And Dave told me eat? What's happening?" And Dave told me later, he goes, "I knew that you were later, he goes, "I knew that you were later, he goes, "I knew that you were reading all this stuff in scripture and reading all this stuff in scripture and reading all this stuff in scripture and you're really praying about this." And I you're really praying about this." And I you're really praying about this." And I knew that I could see a book on the knew that I could see a book on the knew that I could see a book on the table beside you. It still felt so good. table beside you. It still felt so good. table beside you. It still felt so good. And he said, "It felt like this breath And he said, "It felt like this breath And he said, "It felt like this breath of air in my lungs that like what? You of air in my lungs that like what? You of air in my lungs that like what? You think I'm good at this?" Like it he said think I'm good at this?" Like it he said think I'm good at this?" Like it he said it energized me more than you can ever it energized me more than you can ever it energized me more than you can ever know. And so then if we start filling up know. And so then if we start filling up know. And so then if we start filling up our spouse or our kids or our friends, our spouse or our kids or our friends, our spouse or our kids or our friends, we start saying the things that we see we start saying the things that we see we start saying the things that we see that God put in them now, they start that God put in them now, they start that God put in them now, they start having this surplus. Their tank is full. having this surplus. Their tank is full. having this surplus. Their tank is full. And you've heard this before. So you're And you've heard this before. So you're And you've heard this before. So you're depositing these deposits of life words. depositing these deposits of life words. depositing these deposits of life words. And if you're not good at saying them, And if you're not good at saying them, And if you're not good at saying them, text them. You know, in some way, text them. You know, in some way, text them. You know, in some way, communicate that. And then if you see a communicate that. And then if you see a communicate that. And then if you see a truth, and here's and I have to say truth, and here's and I have to say truth, and here's and I have to say this, too. I am a verbal processor.

this, too. I am a verbal processor. this, too. I am a verbal processor. If I think it, I generally say it. And If I think it, I generally say it. And If I think it, I generally say it. And so I I decided like, okay, Lord, I need so I I decided like, okay, Lord, I need so I I decided like, okay, Lord, I need to not do that because I'm getting to not do that because I'm getting to not do that because I'm getting myself in trouble all the time. And so I myself in trouble all the time. And so I myself in trouble all the time. And so I started praying these little breathy started praying these little breathy started praying these little breathy prayers. God, should I say it? prayers. God, should I say it? prayers. God, should I say it? Some of some women don't say anything, Some of some women don't say anything, Some of some women don't say anything, but it can build up inside and you're but it can build up inside and you're but it can build up inside and you're thinking, I just don't want to say it. thinking, I just don't want to say it. thinking, I just don't want to say it. It's not that big. But if it keeps pray, It's not that big. But if it keeps pray, It's not that big. But if it keeps pray, Lord, should I say something? And so, Lord, should I say something? And so, Lord, should I say something? And so, let me give you an example of that. This let me give you an example of that. This let me give you an example of that. This one night, oh, this is terri. I This one night, oh, this is terri. I This one night, oh, this is terri. I This book reveals so much sin in me. It's book reveals so much sin in me. It's book reveals so much sin in me. It's ridiculous. I hope other people don't ridiculous. I hope other people don't ridiculous. I hope other people don't judge me. judge me. judge me. >> It's terrible to write a book cuz that's >> It's terrible to write a book cuz that's >> It's terrible to write a book cuz that's basically what it's going to do. It's basically what it's going to do. It's basically what it's going to do. It's terrible. terrible. terrible. >> So, this one night Dave comes home. He's >> So, this one night Dave comes home. He's >> So, this one night Dave comes home. He's preached four times that weekend. He's preached four times that weekend. He's preached four times that weekend. He's been on the lion sideline the whole day. been on the lion sideline the whole day. been on the lion sideline the whole day. So, he goes to bed super late. He's So, he goes to bed super late. He's So, he goes to bed super late. He's exhausted. And he says just this this exhausted. And he says just this this exhausted. And he says just this this quick little comment. And he says, "Man, quick little comment. And he says, "Man, quick little comment. And he says, "Man, I've been getting critiques lately about I've been getting critiques lately about I've been getting critiques lately about my sermons." And I could tell that he my sermons." And I could tell that he my sermons." And I could tell that he was really discouraged about that. And was really discouraged about that. And was really discouraged about that. And here's what came into my mind, which I here's what came into my mind, which I here's what came into my mind, which I would have said in the past. Honey, I would have said in the past. Honey, I would have said in the past. Honey, I think if you would spend more time think if you would spend more time think if you would spend more time studying the scriptures, I think your studying the scriptures, I think your studying the scriptures, I think your sermons would be better. That's what I sermons would be better. That's what I sermons would be better. That's what I would have said in the past. So, here's would have said in the past. So, here's would have said in the past. So, here's my prayer. God, should I say that? No.

my prayer. God, should I say that? No. my prayer. God, should I say that? No. No. And then here's my next prayer. No. And then here's my next prayer. No. And then here's my next prayer. Lord, should I say anything? And when is Lord, should I say anything? And when is Lord, should I say anything? And when is the time to say that and how should I the time to say that and how should I the time to say that and how should I say it? So then there's that little like say it? So then there's that little like say it? So then there's that little like because James says if any of you lacks because James says if any of you lacks because James says if any of you lacks wisdom let him ask of God who gives wisdom let him ask of God who gives wisdom let him ask of God who gives generously without reproach. So he'll generously without reproach. So he'll generously without reproach. So he'll give us that wisdom. Lord should I say give us that wisdom. Lord should I say give us that wisdom. Lord should I say anything? No. Lord should I say is there anything? No. Lord should I say is there anything? No. Lord should I say is there anything I should say? And then this anything I should say? And then this anything I should say? And then this thought pops into my mind because now thought pops into my mind because now thought pops into my mind because now I've opened this door to let the Holy I've opened this door to let the Holy I've opened this door to let the Holy Spirit do this with me. And I say to Spirit do this with me. And I say to Spirit do this with me. And I say to Dave, like, man, hun, I can't imagine Dave, like, man, hun, I can't imagine Dave, like, man, hun, I can't imagine what it's like to be you. You have what it's like to be you. You have what it's like to be you. You have thousands of people dependent on your thousands of people dependent on your thousands of people dependent on your walk with God. That has to be a weighty walk with God. That has to be a weighty walk with God. That has to be a weighty thing for you to carry. And then he's thing for you to carry. And then he's thing for you to carry. And then he's just silence. Silent. And then he pulls just silence. Silent. And then he pulls just silence. Silent. And then he pulls me over and he whispers in my ear, "You me over and he whispers in my ear, "You me over and he whispers in my ear, "You are my life." are my life." are my life." Gh. Do you see the power that we have? Gh. Do you see the power that we have? Gh. Do you see the power that we have? And you see the power that it's not even And you see the power that it's not even And you see the power that it's not even us. It's that Jesus. He's always wanting us. It's that Jesus. He's always wanting us. It's that Jesus. He's always wanting to restore and mend and breathe life to restore and mend and breathe life to restore and mend and breathe life into us. And I thought, what if I would into us. And I thought, what if I would into us. And I thought, what if I would have said, if you just spend more time have said, if you just spend more time have said, if you just spend more time in the word studying your scriptures, in the word studying your scriptures, in the word studying your scriptures, which maybe that was truth, it it which maybe that was truth, it it which maybe that was truth, it it doesn't even matter. But it's like, doesn't even matter. But it's like, doesn't even matter. But it's like, should I say it? When should I say it?

should I say it? When should I say it? should I say it? When should I say it? How should I say it? Because what we say How should I say it? Because what we say How should I say it? Because what we say matters. I've said some hard things to matters. I've said some hard things to matters. I've said some hard things to Dave, but because his tank was full, Dave, but because his tank was full, Dave, but because his tank was full, that he knows that I love him and I'm that he knows that I love him and I'm that he knows that I love him and I'm cheering him on. I think then he can cheering him on. I think then he can cheering him on. I think then he can receive it and be like, "Okay, I needed receive it and be like, "Okay, I needed receive it and be like, "Okay, I needed to hear that." That's so good. And I to hear that." That's so good. And I to hear that." That's so good. And I think this is also really helpful for think this is also really helpful for think this is also really helpful for any women married to pastors in any women married to pastors in any women married to pastors in particular. Um, and even maybe people particular. Um, and even maybe people particular. Um, and even maybe people who look at women who are married to who look at women who are married to who look at women who are married to pastors, because sometimes you're pastors, because sometimes you're pastors, because sometimes you're comparing your husband who works at the comparing your husband who works at the comparing your husband who works at the bank to the guy you heard on Sunday bank to the guy you heard on Sunday bank to the guy you heard on Sunday morning, and you're convinced that man morning, and you're convinced that man morning, and you're convinced that man always prays with his wife, always is always prays with his wife, always is always prays with his wife, always is reading scripture to her, is just reading scripture to her, is just reading scripture to her, is just bathing her every day with blessings. bathing her every day with blessings. bathing her every day with blessings. And actually what what I feel for these And actually what what I feel for these And actually what what I feel for these men, I think what you said was 100% men, I think what you said was 100% men, I think what you said was 100% right. You know, our our spiritual right. You know, our our spiritual right. You know, our our spiritual leaders, if they're pastors or, you leaders, if they're pastors or, you leaders, if they're pastors or, you know, my husband's been professor, but a know, my husband's been professor, but a know, my husband's been professor, but a lot of spiritual leadership, they carry lot of spiritual leadership, they carry lot of spiritual leadership, they carry the weight of that. And then they get the weight of that. And then they get the weight of that. And then they get home and since we're like, well, this is home and since we're like, well, this is home and since we're like, well, this is where you're supposed to do it, the most where you're supposed to do it, the most where you're supposed to do it, the most important place you're supposed to do important place you're supposed to do important place you're supposed to do it. And it it can just be one more it. And it it can just be one more it. And it it can just be one more weight on them. And I think it's really weight on them. And I think it's really weight on them. And I think it's really hard. It's the place they finally want hard. It's the place they finally want hard. It's the place they finally want to relax and not have to be you. I mean, to relax and not have to be you. I mean, to relax and not have to be you. I mean, my husband jokes. He's like, "Yeah, my husband jokes. He's like, "Yeah, my husband jokes. He's like, "Yeah, every family gathering is always like, every family gathering is always like, every family gathering is always like, "Mike, will you pray?" Yeah. It's just "Mike, will you pray?" Yeah. It's just "Mike, will you pray?" Yeah. It's just like everywhere you go, you're kind of like everywhere you go, you're kind of like everywhere you go, you're kind of expected to be the pastor on call. And expected to be the pastor on call. And expected to be the pastor on call. And it's it is a high calling and it's a

it's it is a high calling and it's a it's it is a high calling and it's a calling both of our husbands love, but calling both of our husbands love, but calling both of our husbands love, but it it it does make it hard sometimes, it it it does make it hard sometimes, it it it does make it hard sometimes, especially in the home when you just especially in the home when you just especially in the home when you just need a break. And so, I love that you need a break. And so, I love that you need a break. And so, I love that you just spoke life to him like that. the just spoke life to him like that. the just spoke life to him like that. the way you turned it to say rather than you way you turned it to say rather than you way you turned it to say rather than you know well I need you yeah I need from know well I need you yeah I need from know well I need you yeah I need from you or whatever to just understand like you or whatever to just understand like you or whatever to just understand like to be kind and think about the weights to be kind and think about the weights to be kind and think about the weights he is bearing each day as a pastor um he is bearing each day as a pastor um he is bearing each day as a pastor um and and when when your life is lived and and when when your life is lived and and when when your life is lived before so many people yeah so many before so many people yeah so many before so many people yeah so many people have expectations on our husbands people have expectations on our husbands people have expectations on our husbands in a lot of ways I mean you know beyond in a lot of ways I mean you know beyond in a lot of ways I mean you know beyond just just the ones in the family. So, I just just the ones in the family. So, I just just the ones in the family. So, I love I think it's really helpful for for love I think it's really helpful for for love I think it's really helpful for for people to even hear that, but just to people to even hear that, but just to people to even hear that, but just to think through, hey, what would actually think through, hey, what would actually think through, hey, what would actually encourage my husband in this moment? encourage my husband in this moment? encourage my husband in this moment? What would help him? Cuz you know, you What would help him? Cuz you know, you What would help him? Cuz you know, you you may have been exactly right in in you may have been exactly right in in you may have been exactly right in in what you were saying, just like you what you were saying, just like you what you were saying, just like you said, but you were also exactly right in said, but you were also exactly right in said, but you were also exactly right in your empathy, like you you saw who he your empathy, like you you saw who he your empathy, like you you saw who he was as a person. So, both were true. And was as a person. So, both were true. And was as a person. So, both were true. And in that moment, the that what he needed in that moment, the that what he needed in that moment, the that what he needed was just to know you were a soft place was just to know you were a soft place was just to know you were a soft place to land and that you were deeply for to land and that you were deeply for to land and that you were deeply for him, you know. And I I think that's him, you know. And I I think that's him, you know. And I I think that's beautiful. I don't know if you've had beautiful. I don't know if you've had beautiful. I don't know if you've had women ask you this, but I've had women women ask you this, but I've had women women ask you this, but I've had women say, "I I've been married to him. He say, "I I've been married to him. He say, "I I've been married to him. He knows I love him. I don't want to have knows I love him. I don't want to have knows I love him. I don't want to have to weigh everything I say. It's to weigh everything I say. It's to weigh everything I say. It's exhausting. Can I just say it?" And the exhausting. Can I just say it?" And the exhausting. Can I just say it?" And the thought that came to my mind is thought that came to my mind is thought that came to my mind is something that my kids said to me when something that my kids said to me when something that my kids said to me when they were little, like, "Mom, why are

they were little, like, "Mom, why are they were little, like, "Mom, why are you so nice to all the strangers? It's you so nice to all the strangers? It's you so nice to all the strangers? It's like you're nicer to them than to us. like you're nicer to them than to us. like you're nicer to them than to us. And so when we're married, like God And so when we're married, like God And so when we're married, like God instituted marriage before the church. instituted marriage before the church. instituted marriage before the church. This matters to him. And the way we love This matters to him. And the way we love This matters to him. And the way we love each other with our flaws, with our each other with our flaws, with our each other with our flaws, with our brokenness is a reflection of the brokenness is a reflection of the brokenness is a reflection of the gospel. gospel. gospel. >> It's it's miraculous. And that's it's >> It's it's miraculous. And that's it's >> It's it's miraculous. And that's it's this light that God wants to show off to this light that God wants to show off to this light that God wants to show off to the world. And yet, I think it's easy to the world. And yet, I think it's easy to the world. And yet, I think it's easy to think if he would just do this and this think if he would just do this and this think if he would just do this and this and this, I would be happy. So then it and this, I would be happy. So then it and this, I would be happy. So then it becomes about us. And so this one I becomes about us. And so this one I becomes about us. And so this one I remember this one night Dave when I was remember this one night Dave when I was remember this one night Dave when I was saying that prayer God show me the saying that prayer God show me the saying that prayer God show me the greatness and Dave we have a son also greatness and Dave we have a son also greatness and Dave we have a son also that's a pastor now and he talks about that's a pastor now and he talks about that's a pastor now and he talks about putting on God goggles. He said when you putting on God goggles. He said when you putting on God goggles. He said when you put these God goggles on you see people put these God goggles on you see people put these God goggles on you see people the way God sees them and then you say the way God sees them and then you say the way God sees them and then you say the things that God would say to them. the things that God would say to them. the things that God would say to them. And so it's almost this has become my And so it's almost this has become my And so it's almost this has become my prayer every day. God show me the prayer every day. God show me the prayer every day. God show me the greatness. Put help me to put on my God greatness. Put help me to put on my God greatness. Put help me to put on my God goggles to see not only Dave but our goggles to see not only Dave but our goggles to see not only Dave but our kids and our friends and our neighbors kids and our friends and our neighbors kids and our friends and our neighbors the way you see them. So I can say the the way you see them. So I can say the the way you see them. So I can say the things that you would say to them. And things that you would say to them. And things that you would say to them. And this one night I was because now I'm this one night I was because now I'm this one night I was because now I'm looking at Dave and I get into the book looking at Dave and I get into the book looking at Dave and I get into the book I get into even our neurological I get into even our neurological I get into even our neurological pathways that we formed of negativity.

pathways that we formed of negativity. pathways that we formed of negativity. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> I would always go into the negative. >> I would always go into the negative. >> I would always go into the negative. Like I remember folding clothes one time Like I remember folding clothes one time Like I remember folding clothes one time thinking, you know, if Dave would just thinking, you know, if Dave would just thinking, you know, if Dave would just be home more and if he would just do be home more and if he would just do be home more and if he would just do this and why isn't he doing this? And I this and why isn't he doing this? And I this and why isn't he doing this? And I felt God speak to me in my spirit. What felt God speak to me in my spirit. What felt God speak to me in my spirit. What would happen if you prayed for him as would happen if you prayed for him as would happen if you prayed for him as much as you complained about him? much as you complained about him? much as you complained about him? And I had created a neurological And I had created a neurological And I had created a neurological pathway. Now the science backs it up of pathway. Now the science backs it up of pathway. Now the science backs it up of negativity. And so now I'm putting on negativity. And so now I'm putting on negativity. And so now I'm putting on this new frame. I mean Romans 12:2 says, this new frame. I mean Romans 12:2 says, this new frame. I mean Romans 12:2 says, "Don't be conformed by this world, but "Don't be conformed by this world, but "Don't be conformed by this world, but be transformed by the renewing of our be transformed by the renewing of our be transformed by the renewing of our minds." And that renew that word renewal minds." And that renew that word renewal minds." And that renew that word renewal is a word of metamorphosis. is a word of metamorphosis. is a word of metamorphosis. Like it totally can change. And so I'm Like it totally can change. And so I'm Like it totally can change. And so I'm was starting to pray that God like you was starting to pray that God like you was starting to pray that God like you need to renew my mind the way I think need to renew my mind the way I think need to renew my mind the way I think about Dave because it starts here. So about Dave because it starts here. So about Dave because it starts here. So this one night Dave's praying with the this one night Dave's praying with the this one night Dave's praying with the boys and now I have my God goggles on boys and now I have my God goggles on boys and now I have my God goggles on and God starting to renew my mind and and God starting to renew my mind and and God starting to renew my mind and going down a new neurological path. And going down a new neurological path. And going down a new neurological path. And so I see him different and when he comes so I see him different and when he comes so I see him different and when he comes out of the room I said to him, "Man, I'm out of the room I said to him, "Man, I'm out of the room I said to him, "Man, I'm really jealous of the power that you really jealous of the power that you really jealous of the power that you have over our kids." He goes, "What what have over our kids." He goes, "What what have over our kids." He goes, "What what are you talking about?" And this was my are you talking about?" And this was my are you talking about?" And this was my biggest complaint, you know, hey, why biggest complaint, you know, hey, why biggest complaint, you know, hey, why don't you read the Bible like Steve don't you read the Bible like Steve don't you read the Bible like Steve reads it every night to his kids and you reads it every night to his kids and you reads it every night to his kids and you all that. Anyway, so I said that to him all that. Anyway, so I said that to him all that. Anyway, so I said that to him of just like I'm so jealous of the power of just like I'm so jealous of the power of just like I'm so jealous of the power that you have because when I'm in there, that you have because when I'm in there, that you have because when I'm in there, it's like bedum and chaos. Like it's it's like bedum and chaos. Like it's it's like bedum and chaos. Like it's craziness, but when you pray and you craziness, but when you pray and you craziness, but when you pray and you speak to them even about Jesus, man,

speak to them even about Jesus, man, speak to them even about Jesus, man, they're clinging to every word. That they're clinging to every word. That they're clinging to every word. That wasn't something I was making up. I wasn't something I was making up. I wasn't something I was making up. I didn't do any of this to manipulate, but didn't do any of this to manipulate, but didn't do any of this to manipulate, but I'm just starting now to see Dave in a I'm just starting now to see Dave in a I'm just starting now to see Dave in a different light. And I'm telling you, different light. And I'm telling you, different light. And I'm telling you, the next night he was up there again. the next night he was up there again. the next night he was up there again. And the next night he was up there And the next night he was up there And the next night he was up there again. And he said, "It gave me hope." again. And he said, "It gave me hope." again. And he said, "It gave me hope." Like, I feel like I'm a failure. And I Like, I feel like I'm a failure. And I Like, I feel like I'm a failure. And I think a lot of men feel this, that think a lot of men feel this, that think a lot of men feel this, that they're failing us. they're failing us. they're failing us. >> They're failing our kids. They don't >> They're failing our kids. They don't >> They're failing our kids. They don't know how to parent, how to be a husband. know how to parent, how to be a husband. know how to parent, how to be a husband. They keep a lot of that internally. And They keep a lot of that internally. And They keep a lot of that internally. And I think for us to be the ones that are I think for us to be the ones that are I think for us to be the ones that are saying, "No, I see some things that saying, "No, I see some things that saying, "No, I see some things that you're really good in." It's so you're really good in." It's so you're really good in." It's so energizing. Nothing has changed Dave energizing. Nothing has changed Dave energizing. Nothing has changed Dave more than me seeing the way God sees him more than me seeing the way God sees him more than me seeing the way God sees him and saying it. He has become a different and saying it. He has become a different and saying it. He has become a different guy. And that's not why I never did it. guy. And that's not why I never did it. guy. And that's not why I never did it. It wasn't to change him. It was to It wasn't to change him. It was to It wasn't to change him. It was to change me. change me. change me. >> That's so good. And I I think too it's >> That's so good. And I I think too it's >> That's so good. And I I think too it's interesting these things I have learned interesting these things I have learned interesting these things I have learned in parenting. in parenting. in parenting. Um, one one time I heard and this was Um, one one time I heard and this was Um, one one time I heard and this was actually Yeah, I always hate to kind of actually Yeah, I always hate to kind of actually Yeah, I always hate to kind of admit this, but one of the best pieces admit this, but one of the best pieces admit this, but one of the best pieces of parenting advice I ever got was on of parenting advice I ever got was on of parenting advice I ever got was on the Oprah Winfrey show back in the day.

the Oprah Winfrey show back in the day. the Oprah Winfrey show back in the day. Um, and it but it was so good. I repeat Um, and it but it was so good. I repeat Um, and it but it was so good. I repeat it all the time. It was Tony Morrison it all the time. It was Tony Morrison it all the time. It was Tony Morrison and she said, "When that child walks and she said, "When that child walks and she said, "When that child walks into the room, you light up." You know, into the room, you light up." You know, into the room, you light up." You know, so often the mom is pulling up the pants so often the mom is pulling up the pants so often the mom is pulling up the pants and saying, "Your color's not right and and saying, "Your color's not right and and saying, "Your color's not right and button your, you know, this and do button your, you know, this and do button your, you know, this and do this." You're always critiquing when this." You're always critiquing when this." You're always critiquing when your child walks in the room. and she your child walks in the room. and she your child walks in the room. and she said, "Light up said, "Light up said, "Light up >> when they walk in the room." >> when they walk in the room." >> when they walk in the room." >> And I was like, "Oh, now I'm hearing you >> And I was like, "Oh, now I'm hearing you >> And I was like, "Oh, now I'm hearing you talk and I'm like, I should be lighting talk and I'm like, I should be lighting talk and I'm like, I should be lighting up when my husband walks in the room." up when my husband walks in the room." up when my husband walks in the room." And And And >> see, I'm connected by that, too. >> see, I'm connected by that, too. >> see, I'm connected by that, too. >> I'm like, "No, no, I'm doing work. I'm >> I'm like, "No, no, I'm doing work. I'm >> I'm like, "No, no, I'm doing work. I'm doing You know, whereas I might stop for doing You know, whereas I might stop for doing You know, whereas I might stop for my child, I'm hearing you now and I'm my child, I'm hearing you now and I'm my child, I'm hearing you now and I'm like, "Oh, I need to light up when he like, "Oh, I need to light up when he like, "Oh, I need to light up when he walks in the room and and not just be walks in the room and and not just be walks in the room and and not just be fixated on, hey, pull up your pants." I fixated on, hey, pull up your pants." I fixated on, hey, pull up your pants." I mean, his pants pulled up, you know, but mean, his pants pulled up, you know, but mean, his pants pulled up, you know, but like I mean, we can be fixated on the like I mean, we can be fixated on the like I mean, we can be fixated on the wrong things and wrong things and wrong things and >> like you're late or you were supposed to >> like you're late or you were supposed to >> like you're late or you were supposed to be here at this time and Yeah. be here at this time and Yeah. be here at this time and Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. Rather than just be like, >> Yeah. Yeah. Rather than just be like, >> Yeah. Yeah. Rather than just be like, "Wow, my life is better because you're "Wow, my life is better because you're "Wow, my life is better because you're in it." and to let my face show that and in it." and to let my face show that and in it." and to let my face show that and to you know when you were talking about to you know when you were talking about to you know when you were talking about the verse I was thinking of um whatever the verse I was thinking of um whatever the verse I was thinking of um whatever is lovely or praiseworthy think on these is lovely or praiseworthy think on these is lovely or praiseworthy think on these things and how often I'm tempted to just things and how often I'm tempted to just things and how often I'm tempted to just think um about what needs to change think um about what needs to change think um about what needs to change versus really setting my mind on what is versus really setting my mind on what is versus really setting my mind on what is good and what is lovely and what is good and what is lovely and what is good and what is lovely and what is praiseworthy because um and sometimes praiseworthy because um and sometimes praiseworthy because um and sometimes you know in in certain seasons of you know in in certain seasons of you know in in certain seasons of marriage just like you said we dig marriage just like you said we dig marriage just like you said we dig deeper to find those things But I do

deeper to find those things But I do deeper to find those things But I do think the more um it becomes a habit of think the more um it becomes a habit of think the more um it becomes a habit of our mental battle and I I think I think our mental battle and I I think I think our mental battle and I I think I think we just get mentally lazy. Um and so but we just get mentally lazy. Um and so but we just get mentally lazy. Um and so but that mental battle of I'm going to that mental battle of I'm going to that mental battle of I'm going to choose gratefulness. I'm going to choose choose gratefulness. I'm going to choose choose gratefulness. I'm going to choose to look at this person. I love Tim to look at this person. I love Tim to look at this person. I love Tim Keller um in his the meaning of marriage Keller um in his the meaning of marriage Keller um in his the meaning of marriage book. He said when we get to heaven book. He said when we get to heaven book. He said when we get to heaven >> I'm going to finally see you. I normally >> I'm going to finally see you. I normally >> I'm going to finally see you. I normally tear up every time I say this and and tear up every time I say this and and tear up every time I say this and and I'm going to look at you and I'm going I'm going to look at you and I'm going I'm going to look at you and I'm going to say I always knew you could be like to say I always knew you could be like to say I always knew you could be like this. Like that's the person you want to this. Like that's the person you want to this. Like that's the person you want to be married to that like that when you're be married to that like that when you're be married to that like that when you're looking for a potential mate. Like who's looking for a potential mate. Like who's looking for a potential mate. Like who's the person you say? I know you're not the person you say? I know you're not the person you say? I know you're not there yet. I know I know you're not but there yet. I know I know you're not but there yet. I know I know you're not but I see the g like the what he's going to I see the g like the what he's going to I see the g like the what he's going to do when he glorifies you and and say I do when he glorifies you and and say I do when he glorifies you and and say I always knew you could be like that. that always knew you could be like that. that always knew you could be like that. that hopefulness as we look at our partner hopefulness as we look at our partner hopefulness as we look at our partner that the Lord is the one who's going to that the Lord is the one who's going to that the Lord is the one who's going to transform them and shape them and we get transform them and shape them and we get transform them and shape them and we get to be part of walking alongside of each to be part of walking alongside of each to be part of walking alongside of each other and of course we're going to be other and of course we're going to be other and of course we're going to be part of that shaping but it really is part of that shaping but it really is part of that shaping but it really is the Lord by his spirit who changes us um the Lord by his spirit who changes us um the Lord by his spirit who changes us um and who changes them and I think that's and who changes them and I think that's and who changes them and I think that's so hopeful that yeah there is hope for so hopeful that yeah there is hope for so hopeful that yeah there is hope for growth for us both I mean because I growth for us both I mean because I growth for us both I mean because I think what I've heard from you and what think what I've heard from you and what think what I've heard from you and what I love about your wisdom is it's so I love about your wisdom is it's so I love about your wisdom is it's so humble because you're you're willing to humble because you're you're willing to humble because you're you're willing to say, "It's me who needed to change, not say, "It's me who needed to change, not say, "It's me who needed to change, not just him who needed to change." And I just him who needed to change." And I just him who needed to change." And I think that's the glory of this thing think that's the glory of this thing think that's the glory of this thing called marriage.

called marriage. called marriage. >> It is a sanctifying tool. Um, but but we >> It is a sanctifying tool. Um, but but we >> It is a sanctifying tool. Um, but but we need it as well. And so, you know, so need it as well. And so, you know, so need it as well. And so, you know, so it's so it's it's it's a really really it's so it's it's it's a really really it's so it's it's it's a really really good thing. Can you give us any final good thing. Can you give us any final good thing. Can you give us any final encouragements as people are thinking encouragements as people are thinking encouragements as people are thinking about their marriage? And then I've got about their marriage? And then I've got about their marriage? And then I've got a last fun question for you, but any a last fun question for you, but any a last fun question for you, but any final encouragements? final encouragements? final encouragements? >> Well, I think some of us too, we might >> Well, I think some of us too, we might >> Well, I think some of us too, we might not say anything negative, but even as I not say anything negative, but even as I not say anything negative, but even as I studied this with um some professors and studied this with um some professors and studied this with um some professors and some things that they've seen that women some things that they've seen that women some things that they've seen that women give off more of their way of being than give off more of their way of being than give off more of their way of being than their words. And so I was so convicted their words. And so I was so convicted their words. And so I was so convicted as you said that too, Melissa, because I as you said that too, Melissa, because I as you said that too, Melissa, because I get so I'm very focused and intense. So get so I'm very focused and intense. So get so I'm very focused and intense. So I get into something and Dave could walk I get into something and Dave could walk I get into something and Dave could walk in the door and I I don't even in the door and I I don't even in the door and I I don't even acknowledge him. And so, and I we just acknowledge him. And so, and I we just acknowledge him. And so, and I we just recorded somebody last week that she recorded somebody last week that she recorded somebody last week that she said I was constantly in the principal's said I was constantly in the principal's said I was constantly in the principal's office, but it never mattered. Even if I office, but it never mattered. Even if I office, but it never mattered. Even if I was in trouble and I was the worst kid was in trouble and I was the worst kid was in trouble and I was the worst kid in the world or the best kid in the in the world or the best kid in the in the world or the best kid in the world, my mom's face always lit up when world, my mom's face always lit up when world, my mom's face always lit up when she saw me. And what would that look she saw me. And what would that look she saw me. And what would that look like for us as wives that our husbands like for us as wives that our husbands like for us as wives that our husbands would when we saw them, we would let me would when we saw them, we would let me would when we saw them, we would let me just say this, it's an act of your will.

just say this, it's an act of your will. just say this, it's an act of your will. You can't wait for your feelings to be You can't wait for your feelings to be You can't wait for your feelings to be there to do it. It's almost an obedience there to do it. It's almost an obedience there to do it. It's almost an obedience because God the father, can you imagine because God the father, can you imagine because God the father, can you imagine the way he would greet us every time the way he would greet us every time the way he would greet us every time because he loves us so much. We're all because he loves us so much. We're all because he loves us so much. We're all made in his image. And so to be a made in his image. And so to be a made in his image. And so to be a reflection of the f father, maybe that's reflection of the f father, maybe that's reflection of the f father, maybe that's a worship moment to for you that I'm a worship moment to for you that I'm a worship moment to for you that I'm going to do this no matter how I feel. going to do this no matter how I feel. going to do this no matter how I feel. Even hug your husband when he walks in Even hug your husband when he walks in Even hug your husband when he walks in the door. Give him a kiss. I love that. the door. Give him a kiss. I love that. the door. Give him a kiss. I love that. I'll just end with this. My friend was I'll just end with this. My friend was I'll just end with this. My friend was struggling with this. She had three struggling with this. She had three struggling with this. She had three girls and I had kind of been through girls and I had kind of been through girls and I had kind of been through this season and her husband was this season and her husband was this season and her husband was traveling every week, always busy, traveling every week, always busy, traveling every week, always busy, always home, just grinding at his job always home, just grinding at his job always home, just grinding at his job and she was complaining every time. We and she was complaining every time. We and she was complaining every time. We walked like 4 days a week and I said, walked like 4 days a week and I said, walked like 4 days a week and I said, "Michelle, I don't think like it's going "Michelle, I don't think like it's going "Michelle, I don't think like it's going to help you just to kind constantly to help you just to kind constantly to help you just to kind constantly complain and tell him about it." And so complain and tell him about it." And so complain and tell him about it." And so I kind of told her my journey and she I kind of told her my journey and she I kind of told her my journey and she said, "I'm bad at words. It's really said, "I'm bad at words. It's really said, "I'm bad at words. It's really hard for me to get out those good hard for me to get out those good hard for me to get out those good words." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you're words." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you're words." And I'm like, "Yeah, but you're really good at texting. You have a really good at texting. You have a really good at texting. You have a shepherd's heart. So ask God like show shepherd's heart. So ask God like show shepherd's heart. So ask God like show me the greatness and maybe you write it.

me the greatness and maybe you write it. me the greatness and maybe you write it. I don't know what you do but text it or I don't know what you do but text it or I don't know what you do but text it or something. So she buys this beautiful something. So she buys this beautiful something. So she buys this beautiful and it doesn't have to be beautiful but and it doesn't have to be beautiful but and it doesn't have to be beautiful but she brought this leatherbound journal she brought this leatherbound journal she brought this leatherbound journal and she just started this daily practice and she just started this daily practice and she just started this daily practice and maybe it was weekly but every once and maybe it was weekly but every once and maybe it was weekly but every once in a while she'd write in the journal in a while she'd write in the journal in a while she'd write in the journal and her prayer was God show me the and her prayer was God show me the and her prayer was God show me the greatness and the things that Rob's greatness and the things that Rob's greatness and the things that Rob's doing right and then she'd write them in doing right and then she'd write them in doing right and then she'd write them in her journal. It could be as simple her journal. It could be as simple her journal. It could be as simple thanks for putting up the Christmas thanks for putting up the Christmas thanks for putting up the Christmas lights outside in Michigan in the lights outside in Michigan in the lights outside in Michigan in the winter. I know you hate it. I know it's winter. I know you hate it. I know it's winter. I know you hate it. I know it's freezing, but you do it every single freezing, but you do it every single freezing, but you do it every single year because you love us so much and you year because you love us so much and you year because you love us so much and you serve us so beautifully. Hey, thanks for serve us so beautifully. Hey, thanks for serve us so beautifully. Hey, thanks for getting to the soccer game. I know you getting to the soccer game. I know you getting to the soccer game. I know you couldn't get there till the end because couldn't get there till the end because couldn't get there till the end because she would always complain, "Oh my gosh, she would always complain, "Oh my gosh, she would always complain, "Oh my gosh, she's not there till the end." She said, she's not there till the end." She said, she's not there till the end." She said, "But when you walk in the into onto the "But when you walk in the into onto the "But when you walk in the into onto the stad into the stadium to see our stad into the stadium to see our stad into the stadium to see our daughter, I see her eyes see you walk in daughter, I see her eyes see you walk in daughter, I see her eyes see you walk in and her entire demeanor lights up. and her entire demeanor lights up. and her entire demeanor lights up. That's the power you carry as a father." That's the power you carry as a father." That's the power you carry as a father." So those are examples and she just So those are examples and she just So those are examples and she just writes them periodically and then she writes them periodically and then she writes them periodically and then she gives it to him on his birthday. He sits gives it to him on his birthday. He sits gives it to him on his birthday. He sits in the chair, has no idea what this is.

in the chair, has no idea what this is. in the chair, has no idea what this is. He reads it and cries the entire time. He reads it and cries the entire time. He reads it and cries the entire time. And this is my husband's best friend. And this is my husband's best friend. And this is my husband's best friend. And so we asked him, "Rob, why did you And so we asked him, "Rob, why did you And so we asked him, "Rob, why did you cry?" And he said, "Because I'm not cry?" And he said, "Because I'm not cry?" And he said, "Because I'm not that. I'm constantly failing. I feel that. I'm constantly failing. I feel that. I'm constantly failing. I feel like I'm terrible at this. I feel like like I'm terrible at this. I feel like like I'm terrible at this. I feel like I'm not what I should be." She said, I'm not what I should be." She said, I'm not what I should be." She said, "But her words," I want to be the best "But her words," I want to be the best "But her words," I want to be the best man on the planet. I want to serve her. man on the planet. I want to serve her. man on the planet. I want to serve her. I want to love her. I want to be the I want to love her. I want to be the I want to love her. I want to be the best dad. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, best dad. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, best dad. And I was like, "Oh my gosh, this is just like this power that we this is just like this power that we this is just like this power that we have as women." And it's not that we have as women." And it's not that we have as women." And it's not that we don't speak truth that we said, but man, don't speak truth that we said, but man, don't speak truth that we said, but man, when we can see the best in people and when we can see the best in people and when we can see the best in people and we say it, that's like being Jesus on we say it, that's like being Jesus on we say it, that's like being Jesus on the planet, you know, in our own broken the planet, you know, in our own broken the planet, you know, in our own broken nature, but our own but our also renewed nature, but our own but our also renewed nature, but our own but our also renewed nature as a child of God. I think that nature as a child of God. I think that nature as a child of God. I think that is such just beautiful wisdom to take is such just beautiful wisdom to take is such just beautiful wisdom to take the time. I think we think of fighting the time. I think we think of fighting the time. I think we think of fighting for our marriage always like going to a for our marriage always like going to a for our marriage always like going to a conference or going to counseling or conference or going to counseling or conference or going to counseling or doing some things like that, but just to doing some things like that, but just to doing some things like that, but just to take a five minutes a day take a five minutes a day take a five minutes a day >> and take some time to meditate on why >> and take some time to meditate on why >> and take some time to meditate on why are you thankful for your husband? What are you thankful for your husband? What are you thankful for your husband? What you know and and write it down. I love you know and and write it down. I love you know and and write it down. I love what she did and then give it to him for what she did and then give it to him for what she did and then give it to him for his birthday. I mean, yeah, his birthday. I mean, yeah, his birthday. I mean, yeah, >> that's really powerful and and those are >> that's really powerful and and those are >> that's really powerful and and those are ways that everyone can do. It doesn't ways that everyone can do. It doesn't ways that everyone can do. It doesn't involve a vacation, an expensive date involve a vacation, an expensive date involve a vacation, an expensive date night. Yeah.

night. Yeah. night. Yeah. >> Um, I think it's just a really >> Um, I think it's just a really >> Um, I think it's just a really beautifully simple way that we can leave beautifully simple way that we can leave beautifully simple way that we can leave this conversation and say, "I'm going to this conversation and say, "I'm going to this conversation and say, "I'm going to work on building my marriage work on building my marriage work on building my marriage >> by just what I think about and I'm going >> by just what I think about and I'm going >> by just what I think about and I'm going to take the time to write it down." to take the time to write it down." to take the time to write it down." >> And it could be you just text something, >> And it could be you just text something, >> And it could be you just text something, you know, and it's maybe a thank you you know, and it's maybe a thank you you know, and it's maybe a thank you because your heart may not be in it. because your heart may not be in it. because your heart may not be in it. Maybe you're at that point, but you Maybe you're at that point, but you Maybe you're at that point, but you could text a thank you and just you could text a thank you and just you could text a thank you and just you something you noticed today. something you noticed today. something you noticed today. >> Yeah. Well, let me ask you um just as >> Yeah. Well, let me ask you um just as >> Yeah. Well, let me ask you um just as our final closing question, what's our final closing question, what's our final closing question, what's something you love about Dave? If you something you love about Dave? If you something you love about Dave? If you were going to write that note to him and were going to write that note to him and were going to write that note to him and say it on here, what's some what what say it on here, what's some what what say it on here, what's some what what what would you say to him today? what would you say to him today? what would you say to him today? >> First of all, I love him. He and I are >> First of all, I love him. He and I are >> First of all, I love him. He and I are very similar in some ways, but he's got very similar in some ways, but he's got very similar in some ways, but he's got these these these >> these attributes that are so unlike me. >> these attributes that are so unlike me. >> these attributes that are so unlike me. One, he's way more chill than I am. One, he's way more chill than I am. One, he's way more chill than I am. Like, there's a laidbackness to him, Like, there's a laidbackness to him, Like, there's a laidbackness to him, even though he's super successful in even though he's super successful in even though he's super successful in everything he does. everything he does. everything he does. He's like this anchor, you know, I can He's like this anchor, you know, I can He's like this anchor, you know, I can be like, "Oh my gosh, this is the worst. be like, "Oh my gosh, this is the worst. be like, "Oh my gosh, this is the worst. Oh, this is awful." You know, and I Oh, this is awful." You know, and I Oh, this is awful." You know, and I could be more up and down, but he's just could be more up and down, but he's just could be more up and down, but he's just like this steady guy, but there's this like this steady guy, but there's this like this steady guy, but there's this other thing that he has that I so admire other thing that he has that I so admire other thing that he has that I so admire about him, and that's this freedom to be about him, and that's this freedom to be about him, and that's this freedom to be exactly who he is.

exactly who he is. exactly who he is. >> We were at this um we're getting we're >> We were at this um we're getting we're >> We were at this um we're getting we're with all of our friends. if we're going with all of our friends. if we're going with all of our friends. if we're going to go on this cruise and there's this to go on this cruise and there's this to go on this cruise and there's this before we get on this cruise we at this before we get on this cruise we at this before we get on this cruise we at this on this evening before the cruise on this evening before the cruise on this evening before the cruise there's this concert on the grounds on there's this concert on the grounds on there's this concert on the grounds on the grass and Dave plays the guitar and the grass and Dave plays the guitar and the grass and Dave plays the guitar and he's and this is he's not drinking he's he's and this is he's not drinking he's he's and this is he's not drinking he's not doing anything but he's up on the not doing anything but he's up on the not doing anything but he's up on the sta he's not on the stage but he's sta he's not on the stage but he's sta he's not on the stage but he's beside the stage acting like he's beside the stage acting like he's beside the stage acting like he's playing the air guitar and like who does playing the air guitar and like who does playing the air guitar and like who does this and it's not to get attention it's this and it's not to get attention it's this and it's not to get attention it's just cuz he's funny and he's just Bree just cuz he's funny and he's just Bree just cuz he's funny and he's just Bree and and I'm like, "Oh, what are people and and I'm like, "Oh, what are people and and I'm like, "Oh, what are people thinking?" And I don't want to look dumb thinking?" And I don't want to look dumb thinking?" And I don't want to look dumb or whatever. And he just doesn't care. or whatever. And he just doesn't care. or whatever. And he just doesn't care. People can think he's the biggest idiot People can think he's the biggest idiot People can think he's the biggest idiot or crazy person. And he doesn't care. or crazy person. And he doesn't care. or crazy person. And he doesn't care. He'll just do it. And I'm way more He'll just do it. And I'm way more He'll just do it. And I'm way more insecure in all of that of people's im, insecure in all of that of people's im, insecure in all of that of people's im, you know, whatever they're thinking. But you know, whatever they're thinking. But you know, whatever they're thinking. But I there's this part of this secret part I there's this part of this secret part I there's this part of this secret part of me is like, "Look at him go. He's so of me is like, "Look at him go. He's so of me is like, "Look at him go. He's so free." And I think I've always thought free." And I think I've always thought free." And I think I've always thought that was so fun. that was so fun. that was so fun. >> I love that. I love that. Mike nor I are >> I love that. I love that. Mike nor I are >> I love that. I love that. Mike nor I are the people who will be up on stage doing the people who will be up on stage doing the people who will be up on stage doing fun things. We're so boring. I mean like fun things. We're so boring. I mean like fun things. We're so boring. I mean like as we're aging we're like so you want to as we're aging we're like so you want to as we're aging we're like so you want to do the cross word puzzle again on the do the cross word puzzle again on the do the cross word puzzle again on the TV? That's like our exciting night. So I TV? That's like our exciting night. So I TV? That's like our exciting night. So I am am am >> It's because you guys are brilliant.

>> It's because you guys are brilliant. >> It's because you guys are brilliant. That's why That's why That's why >> it's the smartest people do those >> it's the smartest people do those >> it's the smartest people do those things. things. things. >> We're so boring. We're like we are sad >> We're so boring. We're like we are sad >> We're so boring. We're like we are sad but we are we are boring together. And but we are we are boring together. And but we are we are boring together. And that's what I love about our marriage. that's what I love about our marriage. that's what I love about our marriage. I am I'm very thankful. I love fun I am I'm very thankful. I love fun I am I'm very thankful. I love fun people like that. I wish I had a little people like that. I wish I had a little people like that. I wish I had a little bit of it in me, but sadly um Mike and bit of it in me, but sadly um Mike and bit of it in me, but sadly um Mike and I'll be I'll be I'll be >> so fun. >> so fun. >> so fun. >> Well, we'll be in the we'll be in >> Well, we'll be in the we'll be in >> Well, we'll be in the we'll be in heaven's library together one day and heaven's library together one day and heaven's library together one day and we'll we'll come visit the fun people um we'll we'll come visit the fun people um we'll we'll come visit the fun people um out there. So, out there. So, out there. So, >> and we'll sit at your feet and learn >> and we'll sit at your feet and learn >> and we'll sit at your feet and learn from you. from you. from you. >> I love I love hearing that. It's it is >> I love I love hearing that. It's it is >> I love I love hearing that. It's it is really good to focus in on what we love really good to focus in on what we love really good to focus in on what we love about our spouses and I think it's just about our spouses and I think it's just about our spouses and I think it's just a beautiful thing and um you know even a beautiful thing and um you know even a beautiful thing and um you know even last night I I was having a hard day and last night I I was having a hard day and last night I I was having a hard day and you know I just Mike is my safe place. I you know I just Mike is my safe place. I you know I just Mike is my safe place. I can just cry and be not strong and lose can just cry and be not strong and lose can just cry and be not strong and lose it like what you were saying about the it like what you were saying about the it like what you were saying about the anchor anchor anchor >> and I'm so thankful and he was like, >> and I'm so thankful and he was like, >> and I'm so thankful and he was like, "Hey, let's just go out to dinner and "Hey, let's just go out to dinner and "Hey, let's just go out to dinner and you can just tell me all about it." And you can just tell me all about it." And you can just tell me all about it." And it was just Yeah, it's just that he's it was just Yeah, it's just that he's it was just Yeah, it's just that he's the safe place and I I love that about the safe place and I I love that about the safe place and I I love that about about my husband. So, it's it's so good about my husband. So, it's it's so good about my husband. So, it's it's so good to hear to hear to hear >> um here here but we we still have >> um here here but we we still have >> um here here but we we still have valleys and we still have peaks. Yeah.

valleys and we still have peaks. Yeah. valleys and we still have peaks. Yeah. and everyone does, but it it's it's and everyone does, but it it's it's and everyone does, but it it's it's choosing um it's choosing to rejoice in choosing um it's choosing to rejoice in choosing um it's choosing to rejoice in what is rather than always try to try to what is rather than always try to try to what is rather than always try to try to focus on what isn't. So, I think that's focus on what isn't. So, I think that's focus on what isn't. So, I think that's really wise. Um well, friends, we hope really wise. Um well, friends, we hope really wise. Um well, friends, we hope that you have enjoyed this episode of that you have enjoyed this episode of that you have enjoyed this episode of the deep dish from the Gospel Coalition. the deep dish from the Gospel Coalition. the deep dish from the Gospel Coalition. Um if you found this conversation Um if you found this conversation Um if you found this conversation helpful, please like and subscribe helpful, please like and subscribe helpful, please like and subscribe wherever you hear get your podcast and wherever you hear get your podcast and wherever you hear get your podcast and and thank you for being here. Um, I I and thank you for being here. Um, I I and thank you for being here. Um, I I think I I know I will leave um really think I I know I will leave um really think I I know I will leave um really thinking about my words a lot more and thinking about my words a lot more and thinking about my words a lot more and wanting to build up rather than tear wanting to build up rather than tear wanting to build up rather than tear down. So, um, this is this is great for down. So, um, this is this is great for down. So, um, this is this is great for our marriages, but it's really great for our marriages, but it's really great for our marriages, but it's really great for any relationship. So, thanks for being any relationship. So, thanks for being any relationship. So, thanks for being with us today. with us today. with us today. >> Thanks, Melissa. It's always good to be >> Thanks, Melissa. It's always good to be >> Thanks, Melissa. It's always good to be with you.