Prepare People for Church Discipline [The Everyday Pastor - Ep. 37]

discipline. That kind of final stage discipline. That kind of final stage we're talking about, it's not just kind we're talking about, it's not just kind we're talking about, it's not just kind of the biggest club we can find to of the biggest club we can find to of the biggest club we can find to punish someone. The ultimate purpose of punish someone. The ultimate purpose of punish someone. The ultimate purpose of discipline is to restore the person for discipline is to restore the person for discipline is to restore the person for it to function like smelling salts in it to function like smelling salts in it to function like smelling salts in their life so that they wake up from their life so that they wake up from their life so that they wake up from their spiritual slumber to see the their spiritual slumber to see the their spiritual slumber to see the gravity of choosing sin over Jesus. gravity of choosing sin over Jesus. gravity of choosing sin over Jesus. [Music] [Music] [Music] Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a Welcome to the Everyday Pastor, a podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of podcast on the nuts and bolts of ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My ministry from the Gospel Coalition. My name is Matt Smiths, a pastor in name is Matt Smiths, a pastor in name is Matt Smiths, a pastor in Richmond, Virginia. Richmond, Virginia. Richmond, Virginia. >> And I'm Luke Duncan, chancellor of >> And I'm Luke Duncan, chancellor of >> And I'm Luke Duncan, chancellor of Reformed Theological Seminary. Reformed Theological Seminary. Reformed Theological Seminary. >> And uh in this episode, we're going to >> And uh in this episode, we're going to >> And uh in this episode, we're going to be talking about the practice of church be talking about the practice of church be talking about the practice of church discipline and in particular, how to discipline and in particular, how to discipline and in particular, how to prepare your congregation for a prepare your congregation for a prepare your congregation for a potential case of discipline. Um, Lig, potential case of discipline. Um, Lig, potential case of discipline. Um, Lig, why is this a conversation worth having? why is this a conversation worth having? why is this a conversation worth having? What is church discipline and and and What is church discipline and and and What is church discipline and and and where does where does it come from this where does where does it come from this where does where does it come from this idea?

idea? idea? >> Well, one is when when we are united to >> Well, one is when when we are united to >> Well, one is when when we are united to Christ, we're united to one another. Christ, we're united to one another. Christ, we're united to one another. When you're united to Christ, you're When you're united to Christ, you're When you're united to Christ, you're united to everyone who's united to united to everyone who's united to united to everyone who's united to Christ. But you are especially united to Christ. But you are especially united to Christ. But you are especially united to the members of the local body of which the members of the local body of which the members of the local body of which you are a part. And and because of that, you are a part. And and because of that, you are a part. And and because of that, there's some accountability. Um, we know there's some accountability. Um, we know there's some accountability. Um, we know you've quoted before from Hebrews that you've quoted before from Hebrews that you've quoted before from Hebrews that we're to spur one another on in love and we're to spur one another on in love and we're to spur one another on in love and good deeds. But it also means that our good deeds. But it also means that our good deeds. But it also means that our sin sin sin impacts the whole of our fellowship of impacts the whole of our fellowship of impacts the whole of our fellowship of our family. Just like in family life, if our family. Just like in family life, if our family. Just like in family life, if you have a member of your nuclear family you have a member of your nuclear family you have a member of your nuclear family that is engaging in certain types of that is engaging in certain types of that is engaging in certain types of sin, say a sin of the tongue in which uh sin, say a sin of the tongue in which uh sin, say a sin of the tongue in which uh they're being harsh, they're being harsh, they're being harsh, >> that affects the family life. It affects >> that affects the family life. It affects >> that affects the family life. It affects the congregation's life when we engage the congregation's life when we engage the congregation's life when we engage in certain envy, in certain envy, in certain envy, pride, pride, pride, >> um, uh, impatience, al things like that >> um, uh, impatience, al things like that >> um, uh, impatience, al things like that impact the life of the congregation. And impact the life of the congregation. And impact the life of the congregation. And of course, especially sins that impact of course, especially sins that impact of course, especially sins that impact families, infidelity, etc. that impacts families, infidelity, etc. that impacts families, infidelity, etc. that impacts the life of the congregation. And so the life of the congregation. And so the life of the congregation. And so from that standpoint, you can see why from that standpoint, you can see why from that standpoint, you can see why it's important that there would be it's important that there would be it's important that there would be attention be be given to that in the attention be be given to that in the attention be be given to that in the life of the church. Now, discipline is life of the church. Now, discipline is life of the church. Now, discipline is not just negative in the bad cases.

not just negative in the bad cases. not just negative in the bad cases. Discipline is also nurturing. Discipline Discipline is also nurturing. Discipline Discipline is also nurturing. Discipline is is designed actually to grow us. is is designed actually to grow us. is is designed actually to grow us. There's positive discipline as well as There's positive discipline as well as There's positive discipline as well as negative discipline. are are you negative discipline. are are you negative discipline. are are you distinguishing between say formative and distinguishing between say formative and distinguishing between say formative and corrective discipline, corrective discipline, corrective discipline, >> you know, and so we're we're going to I >> you know, and so we're we're going to I >> you know, and so we're we're going to I guess focus more on corrective guess focus more on corrective guess focus more on corrective discipline, but it's important for us to discipline, but it's important for us to discipline, but it's important for us to remember that every time you're we would remember that every time you're we would remember that every time you're we would say in in my context catechizing uh a say in in my context catechizing uh a say in in my context catechizing uh a person, every time you're teaching person, every time you're teaching person, every time you're teaching people the basics of Christianity, people the basics of Christianity, people the basics of Christianity, discipling a person, you're actually discipling a person, you're actually discipling a person, you're actually engaging in church discipline. But there engaging in church discipline. But there engaging in church discipline. But there is also an aspect of church discipline is also an aspect of church discipline is also an aspect of church discipline in which we have to address the the in which we have to address the the in which we have to address the the ongoing reality of sin in the life of ongoing reality of sin in the life of ongoing reality of sin in the life of the congregation. And that's what we're the congregation. And that's what we're the congregation. And that's what we're going to talk about today. Right? Uh going to talk about today. Right? Uh going to talk about today. Right? Uh there's a promise in our church covenant there's a promise in our church covenant there's a promise in our church covenant where we say we will pursue transparency where we say we will pursue transparency where we say we will pursue transparency with each other resisting the temptation with each other resisting the temptation with each other resisting the temptation to hide our struggles and sins that we to hide our struggles and sins that we to hide our struggles and sins that we might experience the grace of God in the might experience the grace of God in the might experience the grace of God in the care of his saints. care of his saints. care of his saints. That's what we mean by positive ongoing That's what we mean by positive ongoing That's what we mean by positive ongoing formative discipline that we're all formative discipline that we're all formative discipline that we're all experiencing in a healthy church.

experiencing in a healthy church. experiencing in a healthy church. Namely, speaking into one another's Namely, speaking into one another's Namely, speaking into one another's lives and opening up our lives to be lives and opening up our lives to be lives and opening up our lives to be encouraged and corrected uh encouraged and corrected uh encouraged and corrected uh appropriately. Uh living transparently appropriately. Uh living transparently appropriately. Uh living transparently with one another is what creates the with one another is what creates the with one another is what creates the plausibility structure for the kind of plausibility structure for the kind of plausibility structure for the kind of corrective discipline that the Bible corrective discipline that the Bible corrective discipline that the Bible talks about. But if you don't have a talks about. But if you don't have a talks about. But if you don't have a culture where people are speaking into culture where people are speaking into culture where people are speaking into one another's lives, if you don't have a one another's lives, if you don't have a one another's lives, if you don't have a culture where um it's a normal thing to culture where um it's a normal thing to culture where um it's a normal thing to ask spiritually um invasive questions ask spiritually um invasive questions ask spiritually um invasive questions and I mean that in in the most positive and I mean that in in the most positive and I mean that in in the most positive sense of the word uh and to welcome such sense of the word uh and to welcome such sense of the word uh and to welcome such questions in return uh to be asking questions in return uh to be asking questions in return uh to be asking people for accountability then it's it people for accountability then it's it people for accountability then it's it is going to be jarring. it is going to is going to be jarring. it is going to is going to be jarring. it is going to feel mean for instance if you start feel mean for instance if you start feel mean for instance if you start talking about a formal process of talking about a formal process of talking about a formal process of excommunication. Correct. excommunication. Correct. excommunication. Correct. >> Uh so it's it's really important to >> Uh so it's it's really important to >> Uh so it's it's really important to establish that church culture of um hey establish that church culture of um hey establish that church culture of um hey we we need to be watching over one we we need to be watching over one we we need to be watching over one another's lives and professions as we another's lives and professions as we another's lives and professions as we help one another toward heaven. And just help one another toward heaven. And just help one another toward heaven. And just to define terms, that's really what I'm to define terms, that's really what I'm to define terms, that's really what I'm referring to when when it comes to that referring to when when it comes to that referring to when when it comes to that corrective church discipline is if corrective church discipline is if corrective church discipline is if church membership is affirming someone's church membership is affirming someone's church membership is affirming someone's profession of faith, saying, "We think profession of faith, saying, "We think profession of faith, saying, "We think you belong to King Jesus." Church you belong to King Jesus." Church you belong to King Jesus." Church discipline is simply removing that discipline is simply removing that discipline is simply removing that affirmation of faith. It's not saying we affirmation of faith. It's not saying we affirmation of faith. It's not saying we know for sure you're going to hell. We know for sure you're going to hell. We know for sure you're going to hell. We don't have God's perspective on people's

don't have God's perspective on people's don't have God's perspective on people's hearts. But it is saying we can no hearts. But it is saying we can no hearts. But it is saying we can no longer be confident you're going to longer be confident you're going to longer be confident you're going to heaven based on the way you're living. heaven based on the way you're living. heaven based on the way you're living. Um it seems like you are choosing sin Um it seems like you are choosing sin Um it seems like you are choosing sin over Jesus. Yeah. over Jesus. Yeah. over Jesus. Yeah. >> Uh we we all sin, but it's it's this >> Uh we we all sin, but it's it's this >> Uh we we all sin, but it's it's this unrepentant sin that is habitual and unrepentant sin that is habitual and unrepentant sin that is habitual and ongoing ongoing ongoing >> such that it calls your profession into >> such that it calls your profession into >> such that it calls your profession into question. And and of course you're question. And and of course you're question. And and of course you're you're speaking when you when you speak you're speaking when you when you speak you're speaking when you when you speak in those categories, you're thinking of in those categories, you're thinking of in those categories, you're thinking of the final step in church discipline of the final step in church discipline of the final step in church discipline of excommunication when the church is excommunication when the church is excommunication when the church is rendering that judgment. Thankfully, we rendering that judgment. Thankfully, we rendering that judgment. Thankfully, we have some other tools in our kit before have some other tools in our kit before have some other tools in our kit before we get there. And one of the big ones is we get there. And one of the big ones is we get there. And one of the big ones is admonition. And you see that all over admonition. And you see that all over admonition. And you see that all over the New Testament. And hopefully we're the New Testament. And hopefully we're the New Testament. And hopefully we're giving that admonition to people that we giving that admonition to people that we giving that admonition to people that we do have good confidence that they are do have good confidence that they are do have good confidence that they are trusting in the Lord. and we're trying trusting in the Lord. and we're trying trusting in the Lord. and we're trying to keep them from going in a direction to keep them from going in a direction to keep them from going in a direction that would lead them off of a cliff. And that would lead them off of a cliff. And that would lead them off of a cliff. And even I love I I I remember a friend of even I love I I I remember a friend of even I love I I I remember a friend of ours saying he was reading an old ours saying he was reading an old ours saying he was reading an old Baptist church covenant where it said Baptist church covenant where it said Baptist church covenant where it said something like this about the people something like this about the people something like this about the people that had been excommunicated by the that had been excommunicated by the that had been excommunicated by the congregation that we will no longer call congregation that we will no longer call congregation that we will no longer call you brother but friend. Mhm.

you brother but friend. Mhm. you brother but friend. Mhm. >> And I thought even even that language >> And I thought even even that language >> And I thought even even that language indicated that it was the the discipline indicated that it was the the discipline indicated that it was the the discipline that ultimate step of discipline and that ultimate step of discipline and that ultimate step of discipline and excommunication excommunication excommunication was uh designed was uh designed was uh designed to awaken a person to sin. to awaken a person to sin. to awaken a person to sin. um and not to have the church as his um and not to have the church as his um and not to have the church as his enemy, but as his best friend who's enemy, but as his best friend who's enemy, but as his best friend who's willing to to give the wounds of a willing to to give the wounds of a willing to to give the wounds of a friend. friend. friend. >> And and hopefully that that in and of >> And and hopefully that that in and of >> And and hopefully that that in and of itself would be used to win a person itself would be used to win a person itself would be used to win a person back from a a spiritual condition and a back from a a spiritual condition and a back from a a spiritual condition and a practice that is potentially soul practice that is potentially soul practice that is potentially soul destroying. Mhm. destroying. Mhm. destroying. Mhm. >> And so uh the >> And so uh the >> And so uh the ultimately ultimately ultimately all church discipline is practiced for all church discipline is practiced for all church discipline is practiced for the glory of God and for the testimony the glory of God and for the testimony the glory of God and for the testimony of the church and for the good of the of the church and for the good of the of the church and for the good of the individual who is being disciplined. And individual who is being disciplined. And individual who is being disciplined. And so we've got to keep that in mind and so we've got to keep that in mind and so we've got to keep that in mind and especially if it's a shocking or especially if it's a shocking or especially if it's a shocking or sensational sin. I I can I can testify sensational sin. I I can I can testify sensational sin. I I can I can testify having been a part of that. One of the having been a part of that. One of the having been a part of that. One of the things that happens is you feel wounded.

things that happens is you feel wounded. things that happens is you feel wounded. Even if the sin hasn't been done against Even if the sin hasn't been done against Even if the sin hasn't been done against you, you feel wounded about that. And you, you feel wounded about that. And you, you feel wounded about that. And it's hard to get into the proper mode it's hard to get into the proper mode it's hard to get into the proper mode of, you know what, I need to think about of, you know what, I need to think about of, you know what, I need to think about the eternal spiritual well-being of this the eternal spiritual well-being of this the eternal spiritual well-being of this person because you're mad and you're person because you're mad and you're person because you're mad and you're hurt and you're surprised and and it can hurt and you're surprised and and it can hurt and you're surprised and and it can take some adjustment. As we go through take some adjustment. As we go through take some adjustment. As we go through this process, I am concerned about the this process, I am concerned about the this process, I am concerned about the glory of God. I am concerned about the glory of God. I am concerned about the glory of God. I am concerned about the witness of the church, but I'm also witness of the church, but I'm also witness of the church, but I'm also concerned about the well-being of this concerned about the well-being of this concerned about the well-being of this person. And it means taking some steps person. And it means taking some steps person. And it means taking some steps that are really hard. Yeah, that's a that are really hard. Yeah, that's a that are really hard. Yeah, that's a great note because discipline that kind great note because discipline that kind great note because discipline that kind of final stage we're talking about it of final stage we're talking about it of final stage we're talking about it it's not just kind of the biggest club it's not just kind of the biggest club it's not just kind of the biggest club we can find to punish someone. we can find to punish someone. we can find to punish someone. >> It really is restorative. The the >> It really is restorative. The the >> It really is restorative. The the ultimate purpose of discipline is to ultimate purpose of discipline is to ultimate purpose of discipline is to restore the person restore the person restore the person >> for it to function like smelling salts >> for it to function like smelling salts >> for it to function like smelling salts in their life so that they wake up from in their life so that they wake up from in their life so that they wake up from their spiritual slumber their spiritual slumber their spiritual slumber >> to see the gravity of choosing sin over >> to see the gravity of choosing sin over >> to see the gravity of choosing sin over Jesus. And I love that you talked about Jesus. And I love that you talked about Jesus. And I love that you talked about how ultimately it's about the glory of how ultimately it's about the glory of how ultimately it's about the glory of God. So yes, it's a way it's a way to God. So yes, it's a way it's a way to God. So yes, it's a way it's a way to love the individual living in love the individual living in love the individual living in unrepentant sin. Um, it's also a way to unrepentant sin. Um, it's also a way to unrepentant sin. Um, it's also a way to love the congregation by reminding them love the congregation by reminding them love the congregation by reminding them that this is not what it means to live that this is not what it means to live that this is not what it means to live live for Jesus. It's a way of loving the live for Jesus. It's a way of loving the live for Jesus. It's a way of loving the watching world as you mentioned because watching world as you mentioned because watching world as you mentioned because it shows them that um actually it shows them that um actually it shows them that um actually Christians are distinct from you. Not

Christians are distinct from you. Not Christians are distinct from you. Not because we think we're better than you, because we think we're better than you, because we think we're better than you, but be because we serve a holy and but be because we serve a holy and but be because we serve a holy and beautiful God. And it is ultimately a beautiful God. And it is ultimately a beautiful God. And it is ultimately a reflection as you mentioned of the reflection as you mentioned of the reflection as you mentioned of the character of God himself because that's character of God himself because that's character of God himself because that's the purpose of the church in the world the purpose of the church in the world the purpose of the church in the world is to reflect his holy character and is to reflect his holy character and is to reflect his holy character and love. So there's a little booklet by our love. So there's a little booklet by our love. So there's a little booklet by our friend Jonathan Leman called is it friend Jonathan Leman called is it friend Jonathan Leman called is it loving to practice church discipline loving to practice church discipline loving to practice church discipline >> and I I appreciate that framing because >> and I I appreciate that framing because >> and I I appreciate that framing because obviously on the surface this is often obviously on the surface this is often obviously on the surface this is often going to feel unloving to us but he going to feel unloving to us but he going to feel unloving to us but he shows in just that brief booklet. that shows in just that brief booklet. that shows in just that brief booklet. that it would be a great thing to hand out to it would be a great thing to hand out to it would be a great thing to hand out to members of your church that yes actually members of your church that yes actually members of your church that yes actually church discipline church discipline church discipline can be one of the most loving things you can be one of the most loving things you can be one of the most loving things you can do. In fact I I can you know share can do. In fact I I can you know share can do. In fact I I can you know share this story without you know giving too this story without you know giving too this story without you know giving too many details but there is a sister in many details but there is a sister in many details but there is a sister in our church who moved away for a time uh our church who moved away for a time uh our church who moved away for a time uh and was not responding to our messages. and was not responding to our messages. and was not responding to our messages. How can we pray for you? How can we How can we pray for you? How can we How can we pray for you? How can we encourage you? have you found another encourage you? have you found another encourage you? have you found another gospel preaching church to join? She was gospel preaching church to join? She was gospel preaching church to join? She was just kind of ghosting us. And it just kind of ghosting us. And it just kind of ghosting us. And it prompted a process of what could have prompted a process of what could have prompted a process of what could have eventually led to excommunication.

eventually led to excommunication. eventually led to excommunication. But the Lord used that in her life to But the Lord used that in her life to But the Lord used that in her life to actually wake her up and bring her back. actually wake her up and bring her back. actually wake her up and bring her back. And she's one of our most involved, And she's one of our most involved, And she's one of our most involved, happy happy happy >> members. and and in fact in the next >> members. and and in fact in the next >> members. and and in fact in the next couple of weeks she's going to stand up couple of weeks she's going to stand up couple of weeks she's going to stand up in front of the church and share her in front of the church and share her in front of the church and share her story of how basically church discipline story of how basically church discipline story of how basically church discipline saved her life. Um so so done well it is saved her life. Um so so done well it is saved her life. Um so so done well it is meant to be restorative. And meant to be restorative. And meant to be restorative. And >> just so we're clear if this is at all >> just so we're clear if this is at all >> just so we're clear if this is at all new for you as a pastor, this idea uh new for you as a pastor, this idea uh new for you as a pastor, this idea uh maybe it's something you've you've maybe it's something you've you've maybe it's something you've you've thought about in seminary or in general, thought about in seminary or in general, thought about in seminary or in general, but it's not something you've ever but it's not something you've ever but it's not something you've ever practiced in your church or led your practiced in your church or led your practiced in your church or led your people to think about. The key passages people to think about. The key passages people to think about. The key passages we're thinking about are Jesus's words we're thinking about are Jesus's words we're thinking about are Jesus's words in Matthew 18. Um, and of course in in Matthew 18. Um, and of course in in Matthew 18. Um, and of course in there will be some differences in church there will be some differences in church there will be some differences in church polity. But polity. But polity. But >> what's very clear is is that Jesus says >> what's very clear is is that Jesus says >> what's very clear is is that Jesus says if if your brother sins against you, go if if your brother sins against you, go if if your brother sins against you, go to him yourself. to him yourself. to him yourself. >> If he refuses to repent, take a couple >> If he refuses to repent, take a couple >> If he refuses to repent, take a couple others along. And if he still refuses to others along. And if he still refuses to others along. And if he still refuses to repent, then it becomes a a matter for repent, then it becomes a a matter for repent, then it becomes a a matter for the church. Right.

the church. Right. the church. Right. >> Um and and you and I would both agree it >> Um and and you and I would both agree it >> Um and and you and I would both agree it goes through the elders whether it ends goes through the elders whether it ends goes through the elders whether it ends there. But the point is there. But the point is there. But the point is >> Matthew 18 is a wonderful place to take >> Matthew 18 is a wonderful place to take >> Matthew 18 is a wonderful place to take your people to help them understand that your people to help them understand that your people to help them understand that this is not something that pastors made this is not something that pastors made this is not something that pastors made up again as a way to punish people. But up again as a way to punish people. But up again as a way to punish people. But it's actually coming from the Lord Jesus it's actually coming from the Lord Jesus it's actually coming from the Lord Jesus himself. 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul is himself. 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul is himself. 1 Corinthians 5 where Paul is is writing to that dysfunctional church is writing to that dysfunctional church is writing to that dysfunctional church in Corenth and it seems like there's a in Corenth and it seems like there's a in Corenth and it seems like there's a man in their church, a member of their man in their church, a member of their man in their church, a member of their church um who is sleeping with his church um who is sleeping with his church um who is sleeping with his stepmom or or something like that. And stepmom or or something like that. And stepmom or or something like that. And and Paul does not say and Paul does not say and Paul does not say >> uh praise God for his grace. Paul >> uh praise God for his grace. Paul >> uh praise God for his grace. Paul actually says this is ridiculous. You're actually says this is ridiculous. You're actually says this is ridiculous. You're tolerating something even the pagans are tolerating something even the pagans are tolerating something even the pagans are not. not. not. >> Remove this person from among you. And >> Remove this person from among you. And >> Remove this person from among you. And then there are other places. then there are other places. then there are other places. >> And by the way, he's fussing at them >> And by the way, he's fussing at them >> And by the way, he's fussing at them even more than he's fussing at him. In even more than he's fussing at him. In even more than he's fussing at him. In other words, he's he's he's concerned other words, he's he's he's concerned other words, he's he's he's concerned that the leaders of the church and the that the leaders of the church and the that the leaders of the church and the congregation have turned a blind eye to congregation have turned a blind eye to congregation have turned a blind eye to this. And u so he he's he's this. And u so he he's he's this. And u so he he's he's remmonstrating with the congregation remmonstrating with the congregation remmonstrating with the congregation especially about the particular matter especially about the particular matter especially about the particular matter which again just reminds us all of the which again just reminds us all of the which again just reminds us all of the responsibility that we have to one responsibility that we have to one responsibility that we have to one another. you know, it's it's a part of another. you know, it's it's a part of another. you know, it's it's a part of our submitting ourselves to the kingship our submitting ourselves to the kingship our submitting ourselves to the kingship of Christ, of Christ, of Christ, >> right, >> right, >> right, >> in the same body to care about one >> in the same body to care about one >> in the same body to care about one another in that way. And and Paul another in that way. And and Paul another in that way. And and Paul expects the Corinthian congregation and expects the Corinthian congregation and expects the Corinthian congregation and your congregation and my congregation to your congregation and my congregation to your congregation and my congregation to care about those things. And he's going care about those things. And he's going care about those things. And he's going to fuss at us if we don't care about to fuss at us if we don't care about to fuss at us if we don't care about those things. But let me let me quickly

those things. But let me let me quickly those things. But let me let me quickly admit. So in the 19th century in admit. So in the 19th century in admit. So in the 19th century in America, Baptists and Presbyterians were America, Baptists and Presbyterians were America, Baptists and Presbyterians were both known for discipline. We have not both known for discipline. We have not both known for discipline. We have not been known for discipline in the 20th been known for discipline in the 20th been known for discipline in the 20th century. Part of the conservative century. Part of the conservative century. Part of the conservative resurgence in the Southern Baptist resurgence in the Southern Baptist resurgence in the Southern Baptist Convention has been to recover historic Convention has been to recover historic Convention has been to recover historic Baptist convictions about life together Baptist convictions about life together Baptist convictions about life together as believers. And one of those has been as believers. And one of those has been as believers. And one of those has been the practice of church discipline, which the practice of church discipline, which the practice of church discipline, which is a standing mark of the Baptist is a standing mark of the Baptist is a standing mark of the Baptist tradition and my tradition as well. The tradition and my tradition as well. The tradition and my tradition as well. The Presbyterian tradition very much cared Presbyterian tradition very much cared Presbyterian tradition very much cared about discipline. And it's something about discipline. And it's something about discipline. And it's something that goes all the way back to the that goes all the way back to the that goes all the way back to the Reformation. The reformers were Reformation. The reformers were Reformation. The reformers were concerned that that the practice of concerned that that the practice of concerned that that the practice of church discipline had just completely church discipline had just completely church discipline had just completely dropped off the map in medieval Roman dropped off the map in medieval Roman dropped off the map in medieval Roman Catholicism. And they they felt that the Catholicism. And they they felt that the Catholicism. And they they felt that the preaching of the word, the right preaching of the word, the right preaching of the word, the right administration of the sacraments and administration of the sacraments and administration of the sacraments and appropriate church discipline was um appropriate church discipline was um appropriate church discipline was um those were marks of a true gospel those were marks of a true gospel those were marks of a true gospel church. And so they really cared about church. And so they really cared about church. And so they really cared about it and they attempted to restore that in it and they attempted to restore that in it and they attempted to restore that in the life of the congregation. So both of the life of the congregation. So both of the life of the congregation. So both of us have church traditions that have us have church traditions that have us have church traditions that have emphasized that. But in the 20th emphasized that. But in the 20th emphasized that. But in the 20th century, my tradition did not do a great century, my tradition did not do a great century, my tradition did not do a great job of that. We lost our conservative job of that. We lost our conservative job of that. We lost our conservative resurgence in my part of the resurgence in my part of the resurgence in my part of the Presbyterian world. And one of the Presbyterian world. And one of the Presbyterian world. And one of the things we've tried to do is recover things we've tried to do is recover things we've tried to do is recover a healthy practice in that regard. But a healthy practice in that regard. But a healthy practice in that regard. But it's it's it's tough sledding. We've it's it's it's tough sledding. We've it's it's it's tough sledding. We've been at this for over 50 years now. And been at this for over 50 years now. And been at this for over 50 years now. And there are a lot of churches, a lot of there are a lot of churches, a lot of there are a lot of churches, a lot of bibleelving, bibleelving, bibleelving, you know, gospel-loving,

you know, gospel-loving, you know, gospel-loving, Christex exalting Presbyterian churches Christex exalting Presbyterian churches Christex exalting Presbyterian churches where there's not much of a practice of where there's not much of a practice of where there's not much of a practice of discipline at all. And I I love the fact discipline at all. And I I love the fact discipline at all. And I I love the fact that you quoted Jonathan's book title that you quoted Jonathan's book title that you quoted Jonathan's book title because that's one of the first things because that's one of the first things because that's one of the first things that I hear. Well, it's just not loving. that I hear. Well, it's just not loving. that I hear. Well, it's just not loving. Jesus says not to judge and we shouldn't Jesus says not to judge and we shouldn't Jesus says not to judge and we shouldn't we shouldn't judge others. And so there we shouldn't judge others. And so there we shouldn't judge others. And so there even in bibleelving circles there can be even in bibleelving circles there can be even in bibleelving circles there can be a resistance to doing church discipline. a resistance to doing church discipline. a resistance to doing church discipline. >> Absolutely. Talk a little more about >> Absolutely. Talk a little more about >> Absolutely. Talk a little more about those historic marks of a true church. those historic marks of a true church. those historic marks of a true church. What is the relationship between the What is the relationship between the What is the relationship between the right administration of the sacraments right administration of the sacraments right administration of the sacraments and discipline? and discipline? and discipline? >> Well the the sacraments of course have >> Well the the sacraments of course have >> Well the the sacraments of course have been the gateway at which discipline has been the gateway at which discipline has been the gateway at which discipline has been exercised. So just as you said a been exercised. So just as you said a been exercised. So just as you said a few minutes ago, you talk about baptism few minutes ago, you talk about baptism few minutes ago, you talk about baptism and the affirmation of faith. U when a and the affirmation of faith. U when a and the affirmation of faith. U when a when a person is living a life that when a person is living a life that when a person is living a life that seems to be a contradiction of that seems to be a contradiction of that seems to be a contradiction of that affirmation, then excommunication is to affirmation, then excommunication is to affirmation, then excommunication is to say we're going to treat you like you're say we're going to treat you like you're say we're going to treat you like you're living, not like what you claim.

living, not like what you claim. living, not like what you claim. >> And so you know that that baptism has >> And so you know that that baptism has >> And so you know that that baptism has been that doorway into membership in the been that doorway into membership in the been that doorway into membership in the congregation. Excommunication is the congregation. Excommunication is the congregation. Excommunication is the doorway operating on the other way out. doorway operating on the other way out. doorway operating on the other way out. And the Lord's supper of course has been And the Lord's supper of course has been And the Lord's supper of course has been the place where that is regularly the place where that is regularly the place where that is regularly publicly experienced. And so Protestants publicly experienced. And so Protestants publicly experienced. And so Protestants have especially emphasized someone's have especially emphasized someone's have especially emphasized someone's invitation to the Lord's table and or invitation to the Lord's table and or invitation to the Lord's table and or someone's exclusion from the Lord's someone's exclusion from the Lord's someone's exclusion from the Lord's table. table. table. >> Excomunion. >> Excomunion. >> Excomunion. >> That's where it comes from. And of >> That's where it comes from. And of >> That's where it comes from. And of course that that's a very old word. course that that's a very old word. course that that's a very old word. Protestants didn't invent that. But they Protestants didn't invent that. But they Protestants didn't invent that. But they emphasize that, you know, it's it's in emphasize that, you know, it's it's in emphasize that, you know, it's it's in who you invite to the Lord's table and who you invite to the Lord's table and who you invite to the Lord's table and who is excluded from the Lord's table who is excluded from the Lord's table who is excluded from the Lord's table that we most readily see that final act that we most readily see that final act that we most readily see that final act of church discipline in its of church discipline in its of church discipline in its administration. There were controversies administration. There were controversies administration. There were controversies about that in Geneva with Calvin because about that in Geneva with Calvin because about that in Geneva with Calvin because there were people that were living very there were people that were living very there were people that were living very openly immoral lives and he would say to openly immoral lives and he would say to openly immoral lives and he would say to the elders, we these people need to be the elders, we these people need to be the elders, we these people need to be disciplined. They should not be invited disciplined. They should not be invited disciplined. They should not be invited to the Lord's table. And so they in many to the Lord's table. And so they in many to the Lord's table. And so they in many ways they had the same struggles that we ways they had the same struggles that we ways they had the same struggles that we have today in figuring out how to do have today in figuring out how to do have today in figuring out how to do this. One of the things as we reflect on this. One of the things as we reflect on this. One of the things as we reflect on how how Christians have practiced this how how Christians have practiced this how how Christians have practiced this throughout the centuries and how it's throughout the centuries and how it's throughout the centuries and how it's often become practiced today is is that often become practiced today is is that often become practiced today is is that it has been diluted as you said in the it has been diluted as you said in the it has been diluted as you said in the 20th century. I think a desire for 20th century. I think a desire for 20th century. I think a desire for purity in the church, that historic purity in the church, that historic purity in the church, that historic desire for for purity has been replaced desire for for purity has been replaced desire for for purity has been replaced by a desire for efficiency. Um, and and by a desire for efficiency. Um, and and by a desire for efficiency. Um, and and and a kind of pragmatism has crept in

and a kind of pragmatism has crept in and a kind of pragmatism has crept in where we're only thinking about what is where we're only thinking about what is where we're only thinking about what is going to make this Christian experience going to make this Christian experience going to make this Christian experience as palatable and convenient as possible as palatable and convenient as possible as palatable and convenient as possible for the widest number of people. But for the widest number of people. But for the widest number of people. But that's not the best way to actually love that's not the best way to actually love that's not the best way to actually love them, right? them, right? them, right? >> Um, and so I I think again going back to >> Um, and so I I think again going back to >> Um, and so I I think again going back to establishing that plausibility structure establishing that plausibility structure establishing that plausibility structure with your people, with your people, with your people, >> you have to help them realize that, as >> you have to help them realize that, as >> you have to help them realize that, as I've said before, church membership is I've said before, church membership is I've said before, church membership is where it's none of your business goes to where it's none of your business goes to where it's none of your business goes to die. If if if die. If if if die. If if if that doesn't make sense to people, if that doesn't make sense to people, if that doesn't make sense to people, if they haven't internalized that reality, they haven't internalized that reality, they haven't internalized that reality, >> Yeah. then this whole idea of church >> Yeah. then this whole idea of church >> Yeah. then this whole idea of church discipline is just going to is going to discipline is just going to is going to discipline is just going to is going to feel mean and petty and unloving um but feel mean and petty and unloving um but feel mean and petty and unloving um but rightly understood. It's one of God's rightly understood. It's one of God's rightly understood. It's one of God's greatest gifts to us in our sin. greatest gifts to us in our sin. greatest gifts to us in our sin. >> And I think your generation gets that >> And I think your generation gets that >> And I think your generation gets that more than mine. I'm you know I'm I'm more than mine. I'm you know I'm I'm more than mine. I'm you know I'm I'm born maybe right on the end of the baby born maybe right on the end of the baby born maybe right on the end of the baby boom. And the the style of ministry that boom. And the the style of ministry that boom. And the the style of ministry that was done in evangelical churches as I was done in evangelical churches as I was done in evangelical churches as I was growing up was attractional and it was growing up was attractional and it was growing up was attractional and it was seeker sensitive. Business models was seeker sensitive. Business models was seeker sensitive. Business models prevailed. And so you did have a an prevailed. And so you did have a an prevailed. And so you did have a an either witting or unwitting tendency to either witting or unwitting tendency to either witting or unwitting tendency to treat church members as customers or treat church members as customers or treat church members as customers or consumers. You don't ever think about consumers. You don't ever think about consumers. You don't ever think about disciplining a customer or disciplining disciplining a customer or disciplining disciplining a customer or disciplining a consumer. You're trying to sell or to a consumer. You're trying to sell or to a consumer. You're trying to sell or to get the customer and the consumer. Um, get the customer and the consumer. Um, get the customer and the consumer. Um, and so having the shift that no, no,

and so having the shift that no, no, and so having the shift that no, no, we're not customers or consumers. We are we're not customers or consumers. We are we're not customers or consumers. We are members of the body of Christ. Uh, we members of the body of Christ. Uh, we members of the body of Christ. Uh, we are uh children of God and whom the Lord are uh children of God and whom the Lord are uh children of God and whom the Lord loves, he disciplines. And so I loved loves, he disciplines. And so I loved loves, he disciplines. And so I loved that that phrase you said, church that that phrase you said, church that that phrase you said, church discipline is where that's none of your discipline is where that's none of your discipline is where that's none of your business goes to die. Is that what you business goes to die. Is that what you business goes to die. Is that what you just said? That's so good. And so if if just said? That's so good. And so if if just said? That's so good. And so if if I'm in God's family, I've got some I'm in God's family, I've got some I'm in God's family, I've got some obligations. Um, I've got some obligations. Um, I've got some obligations. Um, I've got some obligations of my family members and obligations of my family members and obligations of my family members and there's there going to be some ways that there's there going to be some ways that there's there going to be some ways that we're going to live together. Every we're going to live together. Every we're going to live together. Every household has that, right? You know, I household has that, right? You know, I household has that, right? You know, I can remember my father saying to me, can remember my father saying to me, can remember my father saying to me, "Son, Duncan don't do that." You know, "Son, Duncan don't do that." You know, "Son, Duncan don't do that." You know, and that was part of his way of saying, and that was part of his way of saying, and that was part of his way of saying, "These are the parameters of what it's "These are the parameters of what it's "These are the parameters of what it's like to live in this household." And like to live in this household." And like to live in this household." And Jesus does that. He's the king and head Jesus does that. He's the king and head Jesus does that. He's the king and head of his church, and he he sets the of his church, and he he sets the of his church, and he he sets the parameters of responsibility and parameters of responsibility and parameters of responsibility and accountability. And and so the when the accountability. And and so the when the accountability. And and so the when the church administers church discipline, church administers church discipline, church administers church discipline, we're just trying to let King Jesus be we're just trying to let King Jesus be we're just trying to let King Jesus be the king and head of the church in the the king and head of the church in the the king and head of the church in the way that he is.

way that he is. way that he is. >> Yeah. Let's think about the uh offended >> Yeah. Let's think about the uh offended >> Yeah. Let's think about the uh offended party, the offender. Um obviously party, the offender. Um obviously party, the offender. Um obviously there's various things that can, you there's various things that can, you there's various things that can, you know, lead to church dis. I do want to know, lead to church dis. I do want to know, lead to church dis. I do want to say that not every sin is easily judged. say that not every sin is easily judged. say that not every sin is easily judged. you know, pride or or or greed. Uh if you know, pride or or or greed. Uh if you know, pride or or or greed. Uh if that's not expressing itself in stealing that's not expressing itself in stealing that's not expressing itself in stealing or, you know, being divisive, then it or, you know, being divisive, then it or, you know, being divisive, then it it's not likely going to become a matter it's not likely going to become a matter it's not likely going to become a matter of of discipline. But we're talking of of discipline. But we're talking of of discipline. But we're talking about sins that are outward, about sins that are outward, about sins that are outward, >> serious, and unrepentant. >> serious, and unrepentant. >> serious, and unrepentant. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um and in a lot of cases, I in my >> Um and in a lot of cases, I in my >> Um and in a lot of cases, I in my experience, it's forsaking the assembly. experience, it's forsaking the assembly. experience, it's forsaking the assembly. someone who just goes MIA and stops not someone who just goes MIA and stops not someone who just goes MIA and stops not only attending your church but refuses only attending your church but refuses only attending your church but refuses to attend another church. Um, and you're to attend another church. Um, and you're to attend another church. Um, and you're you're on record as a church saying you're on record as a church saying you're on record as a church saying we think you belong to King Jesus. We've we think you belong to King Jesus. We've we think you belong to King Jesus. We've put the Jesus jersey on you as it were.

put the Jesus jersey on you as it were. put the Jesus jersey on you as it were. We have to go and just correct the We have to go and just correct the We have to go and just correct the record. As you said earlier though, it record. As you said earlier though, it record. As you said earlier though, it it doesn't mean we're we're saying you it doesn't mean we're we're saying you it doesn't mean we're we're saying you cannot come to church. And it's not a cannot come to church. And it's not a cannot come to church. And it's not a kind of physical exclusion. It's just kind of physical exclusion. It's just kind of physical exclusion. It's just removing you from our membership as an removing you from our membership as an removing you from our membership as an act of discipline. But there's actually act of discipline. But there's actually act of discipline. But there's actually no place we'd rather you be on the no place we'd rather you be on the no place we'd rather you be on the Lord's day than with us worshiping under Lord's day than with us worshiping under Lord's day than with us worshiping under the sound of of the gospel. Um, but as the sound of of the gospel. Um, but as the sound of of the gospel. Um, but as we think about situations that are that we think about situations that are that we think about situations that are that are often even even more tragic where are often even even more tragic where are often even even more tragic where there may be um adultery or a man there may be um adultery or a man there may be um adultery or a man leaving his wife, is there any u note leaving his wife, is there any u note leaving his wife, is there any u note you'd want to sound in that in that? you'd want to sound in that in that? you'd want to sound in that in that? Well, I I want to sound a note you've Well, I I want to sound a note you've Well, I I want to sound a note you've already sounded uh in answer to that and already sounded uh in answer to that and already sounded uh in answer to that and that is you really need to build a that is you really need to build a that is you really need to build a culture of of church discipline in your culture of of church discipline in your culture of of church discipline in your church before you have to deal with that church before you have to deal with that church before you have to deal with that kind of a situation. And what what often kind of a situation. And what what often kind of a situation. And what what often let let me just if I can be very candid let let me just if I can be very candid let let me just if I can be very candid in a lot of our churches a lot of our in a lot of our churches a lot of our in a lot of our churches a lot of our churches have the attitude we don't do churches have the attitude we don't do churches have the attitude we don't do that here. So, if you're a pastor in a that here. So, if you're a pastor in a that here. So, if you're a pastor in a church where we don't have, you've got church where we don't have, you've got church where we don't have, you've got some work to do before you ever get to some work to do before you ever get to some work to do before you ever get to the point of addressing those kinds of the point of addressing those kinds of the point of addressing those kinds of hard cases. And a mutual friend of ours hard cases. And a mutual friend of ours hard cases. And a mutual friend of ours has, I think, very wisely said, if we has, I think, very wisely said, if we has, I think, very wisely said, if we would simply discipline for would simply discipline for would simply discipline for non-attendance, non-attendance, non-attendance, 90% of the hard problems that we would 90% of the hard problems that we would 90% of the hard problems that we would eventually face in church discipline eventually face in church discipline eventually face in church discipline would be taken care of. And I would be taken care of. And I would be taken care of. And I >> And by non-attendance, you don't you >> And by non-attendance, you don't you >> And by non-attendance, you don't you don't mean missing.

don't mean missing. don't mean missing. >> You missed a Sunday, you're out of here. >> You missed a Sunday, you're out of here. >> You missed a Sunday, you're out of here. No, a refusal to come to church. No, a refusal to come to church. No, a refusal to come to church. >> Exactly. You know, you there's this >> Exactly. You know, you there's this >> Exactly. You know, you there's this isn't a health problem. This isn't, you isn't a health problem. This isn't, you isn't a health problem. This isn't, you know, this is you don't come to you you know, this is you don't come to you you know, this is you don't come to you you said you were going to come to church. said you were going to come to church. said you were going to come to church. >> It's been a year. You haven't come to >> It's been a year. You haven't come to >> It's been a year. You haven't come to church. Every overture for you to come, church. Every overture for you to come, church. Every overture for you to come, you you know, so if if we would simply you you know, so if if we would simply you you know, so if if we would simply address very simple basic things like address very simple basic things like address very simple basic things like that, that, that, >> it would help us in the hard stuff down >> it would help us in the hard stuff down >> it would help us in the hard stuff down the line. And so I do think you have to the line. And so I do think you have to the line. And so I do think you have to build a culture of discipline where build a culture of discipline where build a culture of discipline where that's an expectation where nobody where that's an expectation where nobody where that's an expectation where nobody where maybe not nobody but most of the people maybe not nobody but most of the people maybe not nobody but most of the people in the church realize okay this is not in the church realize okay this is not in the church realize okay this is not an unloving thing. This is not because an unloving thing. This is not because an unloving thing. This is not because we secretly want to be the Spanish we secretly want to be the Spanish we secretly want to be the Spanish Inquisition. This is because we're Inquisition. This is because we're Inquisition. This is because we're trying to help Christians live with the trying to help Christians live with the trying to help Christians live with the Lord. We're trying to bear witness to Lord. We're trying to bear witness to Lord. We're trying to bear witness to Christ in our public testimony. We're Christ in our public testimony. We're Christ in our public testimony. We're trying to bring glory to God in the way trying to bring glory to God in the way trying to bring glory to God in the way we live together. We're trying to care we live together. We're trying to care we live together. We're trying to care about the souls of people that are about the souls of people that are about the souls of people that are tempted into sin. And so, one, you build tempted into sin. And so, one, you build tempted into sin. And so, one, you build a culture first. And that probably is, a culture first. And that probably is, a culture first. And that probably is, if you're in a church that doesn't or if you're in a church that doesn't or if you're in a church that doesn't or hasn't practiced this, you need to start hasn't practiced this, you need to start hasn't practiced this, you need to start with the leaders with the leaders with the leaders >> because if they don't buy in, let me >> because if they don't buy in, let me >> because if they don't buy in, let me just say, if the if if a pastor has a just say, if the if if a pastor has a just say, if the if if a pastor has a real conscience burden about this real conscience burden about this real conscience burden about this >> and the and and his elders don't, you're >> and the and and his elders don't, you're >> and the and and his elders don't, you're you're up the creek.

you're up the creek. you're up the creek. >> Yeah. You got to start. You have got to >> Yeah. You got to start. You have got to >> Yeah. You got to start. You have got to get the leaders of the church to say, get the leaders of the church to say, get the leaders of the church to say, "Yeah, we we've we've got to do this "Yeah, we we've we've got to do this "Yeah, we we've we've got to do this together. This is the right. It's together. This is the right. It's together. This is the right. It's biblical for us to do." Church, our book biblical for us to do." Church, our book biblical for us to do." Church, our book of church order, our church covenant, of church order, our church covenant, of church order, our church covenant, they all specify that we should be doing they all specify that we should be doing they all specify that we should be doing this. We're not doing this. Let's figure this. We're not doing this. Let's figure this. We're not doing this. Let's figure out how to do it. out how to do it. out how to do it. >> Then I think Matt, the wisdom of the >> Then I think Matt, the wisdom of the >> Then I think Matt, the wisdom of the non-attendance thing is you you you make non-attendance thing is you you you make non-attendance thing is you you you make it known in the congregation that this it known in the congregation that this it known in the congregation that this is normal. this is it's not abnormal to is normal. this is it's not abnormal to is normal. this is it's not abnormal to do this. This is normal to do this. All do this. This is normal to do this. All do this. This is normal to do this. All of us ought to care about this. And that of us ought to care about this. And that of us ought to care about this. And that that's part of building the culture. And that's part of building the culture. And that's part of building the culture. And I think you were right to start there. I think you were right to start there. I think you were right to start there. Then you get to the hard cases and and Then you get to the hard cases and and Then you get to the hard cases and and you talked about the offender and the you talked about the offender and the you talked about the offender and the offended. Um offended. Um offended. Um very often these cases are going to have very often these cases are going to have very often these cases are going to have to do uh with marital issues, infidelity to do uh with marital issues, infidelity to do uh with marital issues, infidelity in marriage or you know in in the case in marriage or you know in in the case in marriage or you know in in the case of non-married people, sexual of non-married people, sexual of non-married people, sexual promiscuity or some other kind of promiscuity or some other kind of promiscuity or some other kind of scandalous sin that's at least known to scandalous sin that's at least known to scandalous sin that's at least known to a circle of people. And I think it's I a circle of people. And I think it's I a circle of people. And I think it's I think it's important for us to recognize think it's important for us to recognize think it's important for us to recognize that no matter how cut and dried a that no matter how cut and dried a that no matter how cut and dried a situation is, and I'm struck by how few situation is, and I'm struck by how few situation is, and I'm struck by how few cut and dried situations I've run into cut and dried situations I've run into cut and dried situations I've run into over the course of 35 years u in public over the course of 35 years u in public over the course of 35 years u in public ministry, no matter how cut and dried ministry, no matter how cut and dried ministry, no matter how cut and dried things are, they're going to be people things are, they're going to be people things are, they're going to be people because of relational connections with because of relational connections with because of relational connections with the offender or the offended that have the offender or the offended that have the offender or the offended that have their own perspective on how it ought to

their own perspective on how it ought to their own perspective on how it ought to be handled. And so I I just think you be handled. And so I I just think you be handled. And so I I just think you need to recognize that when you go into need to recognize that when you go into need to recognize that when you go into these cases, not everybody is going to these cases, not everybody is going to these cases, not everybody is going to agree. And part of your job is to make agree. And part of your job is to make agree. And part of your job is to make sure that what you are doing publicly sure that what you are doing publicly sure that what you are doing publicly and is it follows a process where people and is it follows a process where people and is it follows a process where people can see, okay, they're acting with can see, okay, they're acting with can see, okay, they're acting with integrity in this process. You have to integrity in this process. You have to integrity in this process. You have to figure out how to do that. Well, in figure out how to do that. Well, in figure out how to do that. Well, in cases in particular where say a wife um cases in particular where say a wife um cases in particular where say a wife um has been horrifically sinned against has been horrifically sinned against has been horrifically sinned against whether through adultery or abuse or whether through adultery or abuse or whether through adultery or abuse or abandonment abandonment abandonment >> and the leaders of the church are >> and the leaders of the church are >> and the leaders of the church are pursuing discipline. Um how can pastors pursuing discipline. Um how can pastors pursuing discipline. Um how can pastors ensure that that wife isn't kind of left ensure that that wife isn't kind of left ensure that that wife isn't kind of left left in the dust? left in the dust? left in the dust? >> Well, let me say very concrete. I'm I'm >> Well, let me say very concrete. I'm I'm >> Well, let me say very concrete. I'm I'm thinking right now of a congregation thinking right now of a congregation thinking right now of a congregation that I have served where there was a a that I have served where there was a a that I have served where there was a a an officer's an officer's an officer's an a a wife and an and an officer, a an a a wife and an and an officer, a an a a wife and an and an officer, a church officer, and he had been church officer, and he had been church officer, and he had been unfaithful to her. And the the the unfaithful to her. And the the the unfaithful to her. And the the the church was very responsive to her church was very responsive to her church was very responsive to her expression of concerns to the pastors expression of concerns to the pastors expression of concerns to the pastors about his behavior. They they she was about his behavior. They they she was about his behavior. They they she was the one who revealed it to the pastors.

the one who revealed it to the pastors. the one who revealed it to the pastors. They didn't discover it themselves and They didn't discover it themselves and They didn't discover it themselves and so she was took her seriously. Yeah. so she was took her seriously. Yeah. so she was took her seriously. Yeah. They took her seriously and now let me They took her seriously and now let me They took her seriously and now let me say even then they they followed an say even then they they followed an say even then they they followed an appropriate process. It could not happen appropriate process. It could not happen appropriate process. It could not happen fast enough from her perspective. fast enough from her perspective. fast enough from her perspective. >> You know I mean his name was on the >> You know I mean his name was on the >> You know I mean his name was on the bulletin as a church officer. You can bulletin as a church officer. You can bulletin as a church officer. You can imagine the very first Sunday that she imagine the very first Sunday that she imagine the very first Sunday that she goes back to church after talking with goes back to church after talking with goes back to church after talking with the pastor. It's hard for her to look the pastor. It's hard for her to look the pastor. It's hard for her to look down there and see her husband's name on down there and see her husband's name on down there and see her husband's name on the bulletin. So they did a great job of the bulletin. So they did a great job of the bulletin. So they did a great job of talking with with her, just making sure talking with with her, just making sure talking with with her, just making sure that she was not left all alone, making that she was not left all alone, making that she was not left all alone, making sure that there was a supportive friend sure that there was a supportive friend sure that there was a supportive friend group around her, making sure that there group around her, making sure that there group around her, making sure that there were elders as well as pastors checking were elders as well as pastors checking were elders as well as pastors checking on her because she had all kinds of on her because she had all kinds of on her because she had all kinds of practical decisions she had to make, practical decisions she had to make, practical decisions she had to make, financial decisions, housing decisions, financial decisions, housing decisions, financial decisions, housing decisions, children decisions because of this. children decisions because of this. children decisions because of this. Wasn't her fault, but it was dumped into Wasn't her fault, but it was dumped into Wasn't her fault, but it was dumped into her lap. They did a good job with that, her lap. They did a good job with that, her lap. They did a good job with that, but it still was really hard for her to but it still was really hard for her to but it still was really hard for her to wait for the process to to play itself wait for the process to to play itself wait for the process to to play itself out. I mean, that is just going to be out. I mean, that is just going to be out. I mean, that is just going to be the wheels of of God grind slowly, even the wheels of of God grind slowly, even the wheels of of God grind slowly, even in church discipline. And and in the in church discipline. And and in the in church discipline. And and in the best of situations, these things take best of situations, these things take best of situations, these things take time, especially if you have a an time, especially if you have a an time, especially if you have a an offended party who makes the church offended party who makes the church offended party who makes the church aware of it and then an offending party aware of it and then an offending party aware of it and then an offending party who admits it, that makes things who admits it, that makes things who admits it, that makes things quicker, quicker, quicker, >> but it rarely goes. So often there are >> but it rarely goes. So often there are >> but it rarely goes. So often there are excuses and you know there's deflection excuses and you know there's deflection excuses and you know there's deflection and there's avoidance and all of this and there's avoidance and all of this and there's avoidance and all of this kind of stuff and that slows things down

kind of stuff and that slows things down kind of stuff and that slows things down and you do have to follow a process and and you do have to follow a process and and you do have to follow a process and most of us have are in churches that and most of us have are in churches that and most of us have are in churches that and I hope if you don't you need to have it I hope if you don't you need to have it I hope if you don't you need to have it you need to have processes that have to you need to have processes that have to you need to have processes that have to be followed. So if you're a member of a be followed. So if you're a member of a be followed. So if you're a member of a PCA congregation, I'm a member of the PCA congregation, I'm a member of the PCA congregation, I'm a member of the Presbyterian Church in America, we are Presbyterian Church in America, we are Presbyterian Church in America, we are required to follow the steps in our required to follow the steps in our required to follow the steps in our church book of church order, and every church book of church order, and every church book of church order, and every congregation member can look at that congregation member can look at that congregation member can look at that process for himself or herself and know process for himself or herself and know process for himself or herself and know what they have to do. And that's good. what they have to do. And that's good. what they have to do. And that's good. And so, uh, but no matter how well it's And so, uh, but no matter how well it's And so, uh, but no matter how well it's done, it it takes time and that can be done, it it takes time and that can be done, it it takes time and that can be hard for the person who's been wounded. hard for the person who's been wounded. hard for the person who's been wounded. And it's it's it is going to be an And it's it's it is going to be an And it's it's it is going to be an uncomfortable and painful process. And uncomfortable and painful process. And uncomfortable and painful process. And that's why as pastors when it comes to that's why as pastors when it comes to that's why as pastors when it comes to cases of church discipline, cases of church discipline, cases of church discipline, >> we need to be leading our churches in >> we need to be leading our churches in >> we need to be leading our churches in sorrow, sorrow, sorrow, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> That they need to see that we are not >> That they need to see that we are not >> That they need to see that we are not relishing this. We are brokenhearted, relishing this. We are brokenhearted, relishing this. We are brokenhearted, >> but we're doing it because we believe >> but we're doing it because we believe >> but we're doing it because we believe it's what's best uh for this straying uh it's what's best uh for this straying uh it's what's best uh for this straying uh person who professes Christ um but may person who professes Christ um but may person who professes Christ um but may actually not know him, actually not know him, actually not know him, >> right? Uh you mentioned earlier the the >> right? Uh you mentioned earlier the the >> right? Uh you mentioned earlier the the idea of non-attendance or forsaking the idea of non-attendance or forsaking the idea of non-attendance or forsaking the assembly. I it I it occurs to me that assembly. I it I it occurs to me that assembly. I it I it occurs to me that Alex Duke has written a little booklet Alex Duke has written a little booklet Alex Duke has written a little booklet called what should we do about members called what should we do about members called what should we do about members who won't attend? Which is just a who won't attend? Which is just a who won't attend? Which is just a helpful um look at that. And then of helpful um look at that. And then of helpful um look at that. And then of course I I reference the work of course I I reference the work of course I I reference the work of Jonathan Leman. He's got that booklet, Jonathan Leman. He's got that booklet, Jonathan Leman. He's got that booklet, is it loving to practice church is it loving to practice church is it loving to practice church discipline?

discipline? discipline? >> He has a short book called Understanding >> He has a short book called Understanding >> He has a short book called Understanding Church Discipline. And then a slightly Church Discipline. And then a slightly Church Discipline. And then a slightly longer but still short book just titled longer but still short book just titled longer but still short book just titled Church Discipline. You know, if you're Church Discipline. You know, if you're Church Discipline. You know, if you're coming from a Presbyterian context, not coming from a Presbyterian context, not coming from a Presbyterian context, not everything Jonathan says in terms of how everything Jonathan says in terms of how everything Jonathan says in terms of how things play out step by step are going things play out step by step are going things play out step by step are going to be the same. to be the same. to be the same. >> But I would imagine you would you would >> But I would imagine you would you would >> But I would imagine you would you would agree with agree with agree with >> the the big difference will be in your >> the the big difference will be in your >> the the big difference will be in your setting and mine is ultimately you're setting and mine is ultimately you're setting and mine is ultimately you're going to need a vote from the going to need a vote from the going to need a vote from the congregation, congregation, congregation, >> right? And that's let me say for as a >> right? And that's let me say for as a >> right? And that's let me say for as a Presbyterian that's a solemn thing for Presbyterian that's a solemn thing for Presbyterian that's a solemn thing for me to look at a whole congregation have me to look at a whole congregation have me to look at a whole congregation have to make that kind of just now it's to make that kind of just now it's to make that kind of just now it's usually informed by the work that the usually informed by the work that the usually informed by the work that the pastors and elders have done. You know pastors and elders have done. You know pastors and elders have done. You know the pastors and elders are going to the pastors and elders are going to the pastors and elders are going to bring a recommendation but that whole bring a recommendation but that whole bring a recommendation but that whole congregation has to decide yes where congregation has to decide yes where congregation has to decide yes where I've I've been able to be at membership I've I've been able to be at membership I've I've been able to be at membership meetings at Capitol Hill Baptist Church meetings at Capitol Hill Baptist Church meetings at Capitol Hill Baptist Church where that's happened. In the where that's happened. In the where that's happened. In the Presbyterian church, the elders are Presbyterian church, the elders are Presbyterian church, the elders are going to bear a lot more of that burden going to bear a lot more of that burden going to bear a lot more of that burden and then different churches will do it and then different churches will do it and then different churches will do it different ways in how the congregation different ways in how the congregation different ways in how the congregation is brought into that. I can commend uh is brought into that. I can commend uh is brought into that. I can commend uh when Phil Reichen, but Phil is now the when Phil Reichen, but Phil is now the when Phil Reichen, but Phil is now the the president of Wheaten College, but the president of Wheaten College, but the president of Wheaten College, but when he was the pastor of 10th when he was the pastor of 10th when he was the pastor of 10th Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, I Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, I Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia, I was there to preach for him on some was there to preach for him on some was there to preach for him on some occasion. And he said, "Hey, before the occasion. And he said, "Hey, before the occasion. And he said, "Hey, before the service, I'm going to need to make an service, I'm going to need to make an service, I'm going to need to make an announcement about church discipline."

announcement about church discipline." announcement about church discipline." And so he he beautifully explained to And so he he beautifully explained to And so he he beautifully explained to the congregation one of these serious the congregation one of these serious the congregation one of these serious cases where a church member was cases where a church member was cases where a church member was excommunicated by the elders. The excommunicated by the elders. The excommunicated by the elders. The congregation was brought in there not by congregation was brought in there not by congregation was brought in there not by vote but by being informed of the vote but by being informed of the vote but by being informed of the process that the elders had followed in process that the elders had followed in process that the elders had followed in discipline and he was able to give some discipline and he was able to give some discipline and he was able to give some instruction on how we we want to pray instruction on how we we want to pray instruction on how we we want to pray for this person who has been for this person who has been for this person who has been disciplined. We want that person to be disciplined. We want that person to be disciplined. We want that person to be in in in worship. We want them to in in in worship. We want them to in in in worship. We want them to relationship. Reach out. relationship. Reach out. relationship. Reach out. >> Reach out. Express your love and and >> Reach out. Express your love and and >> Reach out. Express your love and and care. The elders will continue to do care. The elders will continue to do care. The elders will continue to do that. But we've done this for the glory that. But we've done this for the glory that. But we've done this for the glory of God, for the for the witness of the of God, for the for the witness of the of God, for the for the witness of the church, and for the well-being of this church, and for the well-being of this church, and for the well-being of this person. It was really well done. And it person. It was really well done. And it person. It was really well done. And it was sort of our Presbyterian version of was sort of our Presbyterian version of was sort of our Presbyterian version of what you have to do in a members meeting what you have to do in a members meeting what you have to do in a members meeting when you have to act on these things. when you have to act on these things. when you have to act on these things. Um, so that that kind of transparency, Um, so that that kind of transparency, Um, so that that kind of transparency, you used that word earlier, is that's you used that word earlier, is that's you used that word earlier, is that's part of building a culture of discipline part of building a culture of discipline part of building a culture of discipline >> where the whole congre I mean that's >> where the whole congre I mean that's >> where the whole congre I mean that's always a sobering moment when you're always a sobering moment when you're always a sobering moment when you're taking that last step or announcing that taking that last step or announcing that taking that last step or announcing that last step and it makes everybody aware.

last step and it makes everybody aware. last step and it makes everybody aware. Wow, they I mean they really care about Wow, they I mean they really care about Wow, they I mean they really care about this. This really matters. This is not a this. This really matters. This is not a this. This really matters. This is not a game. This is a serious relationship game. This is a serious relationship game. This is a serious relationship that we're in. And we we vow our last that we're in. And we we vow our last that we're in. And we we vow our last vow of membership is that we will submit vow of membership is that we will submit vow of membership is that we will submit ourselves to the government and ourselves to the government and ourselves to the government and discipline of the church and practice discipline of the church and practice discipline of the church and practice its purity and peace. So that's our last its purity and peace. So that's our last its purity and peace. So that's our last vow to one another. So just like in your vow to one another. So just like in your vow to one another. So just like in your church covenants, you make those kinds church covenants, you make those kinds church covenants, you make those kinds of commitments, we make that in our of commitments, we make that in our of commitments, we make that in our membership vows. And church discipline membership vows. And church discipline membership vows. And church discipline is just playing that out. is just playing that out. is just playing that out. >> Right. Absolutely. It is a grave and >> Right. Absolutely. It is a grave and >> Right. Absolutely. It is a grave and serious matter um that God would attach serious matter um that God would attach serious matter um that God would attach his name his name his name to churches of flawed sinful men and to churches of flawed sinful men and to churches of flawed sinful men and women. And in the Bible, name is a very women. And in the Bible, name is a very women. And in the Bible, name is a very rich word. It it has to do with his rich word. It it has to do with his rich word. It it has to do with his character and his reputation. Jesus has character and his reputation. Jesus has character and his reputation. Jesus has has entrusted his reputation in the has entrusted his reputation in the has entrusted his reputation in the world. world. world. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To those churches who bear his name. So >> To those churches who bear his name. So >> To those churches who bear his name. So may we be found faithful. may we be found faithful. may we be found faithful. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> In the way we have led even when it's >> In the way we have led even when it's >> In the way we have led even when it's difficult. difficult. difficult. >> Amen. Uh we hope this episode of the >> Amen. Uh we hope this episode of the >> Amen. Uh we hope this episode of the everyday pastor has been helpful to you, everyday pastor has been helpful to you, everyday pastor has been helpful to you, hopefully an encouragement even as we've hopefully an encouragement even as we've hopefully an encouragement even as we've considered a very serious topic. Um if considered a very serious topic. Um if considered a very serious topic. Um if you found it useful, we would love for you found it useful, we would love for you found it useful, we would love for you to share it with a pastor friend.

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