How Fighting Can Save a Relationship | Priya Parker on ‘The Interview’

I think it's a huge misunderstanding to I think it's a huge misunderstanding to think that we have too much conflict think that we have too much conflict think that we have too much conflict right now. We actually have too little right now. We actually have too little right now. We actually have too little conflict. [music] >> I'm David Marquesy and today I'm >> I'm David Marquesy and today I'm interviewing conflict resolution interviewing conflict resolution interviewing conflict resolution facilitator and author Priya Parker. For facilitator and author Priya Parker. For facilitator and author Priya Parker. For many of us, conflict, be it at work or many of us, conflict, be it at work or many of us, conflict, be it at work or at home or in society, feels like at home or in society, feels like at home or in society, feels like something to avoid. It's combustible, something to avoid. It's combustible, something to avoid. It's combustible, irresolvable, or just uncomfortable. But irresolvable, or just uncomfortable. But irresolvable, or just uncomfortable. But in her new book, The Art of Fighting, in her new book, The Art of Fighting, in her new book, The Art of Fighting, [music] Parker argues that we should [music] Parker argues that we should [music] Parker argues that we should fight more and learn how to do it well. fight more and learn how to do it well. fight more and learn how to do it well. >> We have this this norm of almost toxic >> We have this this norm of almost toxic >> We have this this norm of almost toxic politeness and is blocking us from politeness and is blocking us from politeness and is blocking us from actually having the really important actually having the really important actually having the really important conversations. [music] conversations. [music] conversations. [music] >> Parker, who also wrote the bestselling >> Parker, who also wrote the bestselling >> Parker, who also wrote the bestselling 2018 book, The Art of Gathering, is 2018 book, The Art of Gathering, is 2018 book, The Art of Gathering, is drawing on her work, Mediating Conflict drawing on her work, Mediating Conflict drawing on her work, Mediating Conflict on [music] College Campuses, at Fortune on [music] College Campuses, at Fortune on [music] College Campuses, at Fortune 500 companies, in cultural institutions, 500 companies, in cultural institutions, 500 companies, in cultural institutions, and within families. Part of working and within families. Part of working and within families. Part of working with families is [music] shifting the with families is [music] shifting the with families is [music] shifting the mental model of disagreement from being mental model of disagreement from being mental model of disagreement from being disrespectful to actually being one of disrespectful to actually being one of disrespectful to actually being one of the highest forms of honor. the highest forms of honor. the highest forms of honor. >> So, how and when should we fight? Here's >> So, how and when should we fight? Here's >> So, how and when should we fight? Here's my [music] conversation with Pria my [music] conversation with Pria my [music] conversation with Pria Parker. But first, a quick message. If Parker. But first, a quick message. If Parker. But first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some you're not a subscriber, we have some you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. [music] You can now news for you. [music] You can now news for you. [music] You can now explore the Times for free without payw explore the Times for free without payw explore the Times for free without payw walls during your first month in the New walls during your first month in the New walls during your first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app York Times app. Just download the app York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview.

the interview. the interview. A Pria, thank you for for being here. A Pria, thank you for for being here. A Pria, thank you for for being here. I'm very excited to talk with you about I'm very excited to talk with you about I'm very excited to talk with you about conflict. conflict. conflict. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> Thank you for having me. >> So, your your previous book, The Art of >> So, your your previous book, The Art of >> So, your your previous book, The Art of Gathering, which I think was published Gathering, which I think was published Gathering, which I think was published in 2018. in 2018. in 2018. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Yep. >> Uh, so it's been a little while, but >> Uh, so it's been a little while, but >> Uh, so it's been a little while, but that was all about like healthy and that was all about like healthy and that was all about like healthy and productive group activity. And of productive group activity. And of productive group activity. And of course, the new book is about conflict, course, the new book is about conflict, course, the new book is about conflict, and it's hard not to wonder if that and it's hard not to wonder if that and it's hard not to wonder if that suggests something grim about the suggests something grim about the suggests something grim about the trajectory of the world since then. So, trajectory of the world since then. So, trajectory of the world since then. So, so why did you feel compelled to write so why did you feel compelled to write so why did you feel compelled to write the new book? the new book? the new book? >> I am deeply interested in human >> I am deeply interested in human >> I am deeply interested in human connection and the art of gathering is connection and the art of gathering is connection and the art of gathering is about human connection and the art of about human connection and the art of about human connection and the art of fighting is about human connection. And fighting is about human connection. And fighting is about human connection. And I decided to write this book in part I decided to write this book in part I decided to write this book in part because as a conflict resolution because as a conflict resolution because as a conflict resolution facilitator, I saw that in so many of facilitator, I saw that in so many of facilitator, I saw that in so many of the organizations that I work in, and so the organizations that I work in, and so the organizations that I work in, and so many of the families I work with, in so many of the families I work with, in so many of the families I work with, in so many of the friend groups that I am a many of the friend groups that I am a many of the friend groups that I am a part of or see, they are often actually part of or see, they are often actually part of or see, they are often actually falling apart because they're afraid to falling apart because they're afraid to falling apart because they're afraid to fight. And so much of what I find is fight. And so much of what I find is fight. And so much of what I find is that organizations and friend groups that organizations and friend groups that organizations and friend groups basically when conflict arises oscillate basically when conflict arises oscillate basically when conflict arises oscillate between either unhealthy peace between either unhealthy peace between either unhealthy peace >> Yeah. conflict, aversion, avoidance, >> Yeah. conflict, aversion, avoidance, >> Yeah. conflict, aversion, avoidance, people believe pretending everything's people believe pretending everything's people believe pretending everything's fine, and unhealthy conflict, right, fine, and unhealthy conflict, right, fine, and unhealthy conflict, right, which is either escalation or domination which is either escalation or domination which is either escalation or domination or abuse. And so I wrote The Art of or abuse. And so I wrote The Art of or abuse. And so I wrote The Art of Fighting to basically say, look, this is Fighting to basically say, look, this is Fighting to basically say, look, this is a deeply deeply important part of all a deeply deeply important part of all a deeply deeply important part of all group life, of all of our relationships.

group life, of all of our relationships. group life, of all of our relationships. And we're not taught how to do it well. And we're not taught how to do it well. And we're not taught how to do it well. And we're actually not taught that it's And we're actually not taught that it's And we're actually not taught that it's actually deeply functional. It's not actually deeply functional. It's not actually deeply functional. It's not immoral. It's not toxic. conflict is immoral. It's not toxic. conflict is immoral. It's not toxic. conflict is actually the way we figure out who we actually the way we figure out who we actually the way we figure out who we are and how we negotiate to be part of are and how we negotiate to be part of are and how we negotiate to be part of common life together. common life together. common life together. >> You use the term unhealthy peace. Um >> You use the term unhealthy peace. Um >> You use the term unhealthy peace. Um >> I think it's possible that that term >> I think it's possible that that term >> I think it's possible that that term could feel like an oxymoron to some could feel like an oxymoron to some could feel like an oxymoron to some people like what what could be unhealthy people like what what could be unhealthy people like what what could be unhealthy about peace? Can you explain what you about peace? Can you explain what you about peace? Can you explain what you mean by that term? mean by that term? mean by that term? >> You know, maybe I'll start with a >> You know, maybe I'll start with a >> You know, maybe I'll start with a personal story. When my parents personal story. When my parents personal story. When my parents separated, I'm half Indian, half white separated, I'm half Indian, half white separated, I'm half Indian, half white American. Uh both of my parents are American. Uh both of my parents are American. Uh both of my parents are actually very conflict averse. And when actually very conflict averse. And when actually very conflict averse. And when my parents separated and then divorced, my parents separated and then divorced, my parents separated and then divorced, everyone was shocked because they never everyone was shocked because they never everyone was shocked because they never fought. And so I learned from a young fought. And so I learned from a young fought. And so I learned from a young age that there's there's great loss and age that there's there's great loss and age that there's there's great loss and avoidance. And so part of, you know, and avoidance. And so part of, you know, and avoidance. And so part of, you know, and I'm actually a third generation conflict I'm actually a third generation conflict I'm actually a third generation conflict avoidant person. So like on my Parker avoidant person. So like on my Parker avoidant person. So like on my Parker side, on my Iowa side, on my Indian side, on my Iowa side, on my Indian side, on my Iowa side, on my Indian side, like when heat rises, we just like side, like when heat rises, we just like side, like when heat rises, we just like stick our head in the sand and hope stick our head in the sand and hope stick our head in the sand and hope it'll pass. And so much of unhealthy it'll pass. And so much of unhealthy it'll pass. And so much of unhealthy peace is actually the idea that if we peace is actually the idea that if we peace is actually the idea that if we just pretend this conflict is not there, just pretend this conflict is not there, just pretend this conflict is not there, if we just kind of like, you know, shove if we just kind of like, you know, shove if we just kind of like, you know, shove it under the rug and hope it'll pass, it under the rug and hope it'll pass, it under the rug and hope it'll pass, everything will be fine. But actually, everything will be fine. But actually, everything will be fine. But actually, when we don't have meaningful when we don't have meaningful when we don't have meaningful conversations, the the relationship can conversations, the the relationship can conversations, the the relationship can also end. I mean, so often when you know also end. I mean, so often when you know also end. I mean, so often when you know this, you hear in the culture, it's like this, you hear in the culture, it's like this, you hear in the culture, it's like not my labor, not my burden, like I not my labor, not my burden, like I not my labor, not my burden, like I don't have time, too much baggage over don't have time, too much baggage over don't have time, too much baggage over here, like friends are supposed to just here, like friends are supposed to just here, like friends are supposed to just all be fun. actually because we're so

all be fun. actually because we're so all be fun. actually because we're so conflict averse, we exit before we're conflict averse, we exit before we're conflict averse, we exit before we're actually willing to engage. And so our actually willing to engage. And so our actually willing to engage. And so our communities and our families are communities and our families are communities and our families are fracturing in part because we're afraid fracturing in part because we're afraid fracturing in part because we're afraid of entering and we don't often we're not of entering and we don't often we're not of entering and we don't often we're not taught the skills of how to actually taught the skills of how to actually taught the skills of how to actually have those fights. have those fights. have those fights. >> I I have some some questions about that >> I I have some some questions about that >> I I have some some questions about that kind of conflict or conflict avoidance. kind of conflict or conflict avoidance. kind of conflict or conflict avoidance. Before I get to those, I'm just curious, Before I get to those, I'm just curious, Before I get to those, I'm just curious, what is the the most common workplace what is the the most common workplace what is the the most common workplace conflict that you're asked to come in conflict that you're asked to come in conflict that you're asked to come in and help resolve? and help resolve? and help resolve? >> I love this question. >> I love this question. >> I love this question. >> You must get the same conflict over and >> You must get the same conflict over and >> You must get the same conflict over and over again. I mean, a lot of So, first over again. I mean, a lot of So, first over again. I mean, a lot of So, first of all, I'm a conflict resolution of all, I'm a conflict resolution of all, I'm a conflict resolution facilitator and so by the time the phone facilitator and so by the time the phone facilitator and so by the time the phone call comes to me, it's call comes to me, it's call comes to me, it's >> pretty bad, right? >> pretty bad, right? >> pretty bad, right? >> Well, it's either pretty bad or someone >> Well, it's either pretty bad or someone >> Well, it's either pretty bad or someone has realized, okay, the way we are has realized, okay, the way we are has realized, okay, the way we are handling this is blocking us from handling this is blocking us from handling this is blocking us from progress. progress. progress. >> Yeah. And so one of the most common >> Yeah. And so one of the most common >> Yeah. And so one of the most common conflict problems that people come with conflict problems that people come with conflict problems that people come with me for is actually our team is too me for is actually our team is too me for is actually our team is too polite. [laughter] I see you laughing polite. [laughter] I see you laughing polite. [laughter] I see you laughing and and knowing sigh. There's deep and and knowing sigh. There's deep and and knowing sigh. There's deep difference here. But we are we have this difference here. But we are we have this difference here. But we are we have this this norm of almost toxic politeness and this norm of almost toxic politeness and this norm of almost toxic politeness and it's blocking us from actually having it's blocking us from actually having it's blocking us from actually having the really important conversations about the really important conversations about the really important conversations about what should go in our product or why do what should go in our product or why do what should go in our product or why do our customers hate our product or what our customers hate our product or what our customers hate our product or what should go on the front page of the should go on the front page of the should go on the front page of the newspaper. and so can you come in and newspaper. and so can you come in and newspaper. and so can you come in and help us get better at fighting with each help us get better at fighting with each help us get better at fighting with each other. So one set of one of the most other. So one set of one of the most other. So one set of one of the most common sets of problems that companies common sets of problems that companies common sets of problems that companies come with me for is actually to help come with me for is actually to help come with me for is actually to help them become more conflict competent.

them become more conflict competent. them become more conflict competent. >> I think it's a huge misunderstanding to >> I think it's a huge misunderstanding to >> I think it's a huge misunderstanding to think that we have too much conflict think that we have too much conflict think that we have too much conflict right now. We actually have too little right now. We actually have too little right now. We actually have too little conflict. conflict. conflict. >> Yeah. Which is I think sounds crazy to >> Yeah. Which is I think sounds crazy to >> Yeah. Which is I think sounds crazy to people. [laughter] people. [laughter] people. [laughter] >> It sounds it sounds crazy but there is >> It sounds it sounds crazy but there is >> It sounds it sounds crazy but there is something between war and peace which is something between war and peace which is something between war and peace which is what I call healthy heat. And healthy what I call healthy heat. And healthy what I call healthy heat. And healthy heat is what is actually at the center heat is what is actually at the center heat is what is actually at the center of all meaningful relationships, all of all meaningful relationships, all of all meaningful relationships, all long-term communities. So part of what I long-term communities. So part of what I long-term communities. So part of what I do is I go in and help teams get more do is I go in and help teams get more do is I go in and help teams get more comfortable with heat. So I'll give a comfortable with heat. So I'll give a comfortable with heat. So I'll give a simple example. One of the things that simple example. One of the things that simple example. One of the things that we do is we ho we have companies or we do is we ho we have companies or we do is we ho we have companies or teams, I do this with my own team, host teams, I do this with my own team, host teams, I do this with my own team, host a hot takes party, [laughter] a hot takes party, [laughter] a hot takes party, [laughter] >> practicing basically pro-social >> practicing basically pro-social >> practicing basically pro-social conflict. They're laughing. They're conflict. They're laughing. They're conflict. They're laughing. They're arguing. They're finding they're allowed arguing. They're finding they're allowed arguing. They're finding they're allowed to be disgusted with each other about to be disgusted with each other about to be disgusted with each other about stuff that doesn't actually matter. I stuff that doesn't actually matter. I stuff that doesn't actually matter. I saw this done at a corporate retreat. It saw this done at a corporate retreat. It saw this done at a corporate retreat. It was a tech company. They had to make was a tech company. They had to make was a tech company. They had to make really difficult decisions at a very really difficult decisions at a very really difficult decisions at a very significant crossroads in their company. significant crossroads in their company. significant crossroads in their company. >> And um the vice president came out on >> And um the vice president came out on >> And um the vice president came out on stage and he basically said, he told me stage and he basically said, he told me stage and he basically said, he told me this later, this later, this later, >> their conflict aversion was preventing >> their conflict aversion was preventing >> their conflict aversion was preventing them from actually having the fight they them from actually having the fight they them from actually having the fight they needed to have. So he gets up on stage needed to have. So he gets up on stage needed to have. So he gets up on stage and he's like, "I really hate to start and he's like, "I really hate to start and he's like, "I really hate to start in a bad place, but we really need to in a bad place, but we really need to in a bad place, but we really need to have some really important decisions have some really important decisions have some really important decisions today." And like the whole room tenses today." And like the whole room tenses today." And like the whole room tenses up. I was in the room and and he's like, up. I was in the room and and he's like, up. I was in the room and and he's like, "So we're going to have some debates and "So we're going to have some debates and "So we're going to have some debates and we're going to start we're going to we're going to start we're going to we're going to start we're going to start strong." And then he puts up a start strong." And then he puts up a start strong." And then he puts up a slide and it literally says, "Pineapple slide and it literally says, "Pineapple slide and it literally says, "Pineapple on pizza, yes or no?" And everyone's on pizza, yes or no?" And everyone's on pizza, yes or no?" And everyone's like, "What?" And he's like, "Go in five like, "What?" And he's like, "Go in five like, "What?" And he's like, "Go in five minutes. Go." And start arguing. And all

minutes. Go." And start arguing. And all minutes. Go." And start arguing. And all of a sudden the room is like a buzz. of a sudden the room is like a buzz. of a sudden the room is like a buzz. Like pineapple and pizza. Like ah that's Like pineapple and pizza. Like ah that's Like pineapple and pizza. Like ah that's disgusting. I'm Italian. This is disgusting. I'm Italian. This is disgusting. I'm Italian. This is offensive. people and then and then the offensive. people and then and then the offensive. people and then and then the next sentence goes on. He's like, "What next sentence goes on. He's like, "What next sentence goes on. He's like, "What is the perfect time for lunch and people is the perfect time for lunch and people is the perfect time for lunch and people start arguing about it and in that room start arguing about it and in that room start arguing about it and in that room o over these 17 minutes they start o over these 17 minutes they start o over these 17 minutes they start normalizing fighting with each other and normalizing fighting with each other and normalizing fighting with each other and low stakes arguing is actually low stakes arguing is actually low stakes arguing is actually preparation for high stakes arguing. So preparation for high stakes arguing. So preparation for high stakes arguing. So the next day they brought out the real the next day they brought out the real the next day they brought out the real topics and everyone is referring like topics and everyone is referring like topics and everyone is referring like remember yesterday with the pineapple on remember yesterday with the pineapple on remember yesterday with the pineapple on pizza. So part of what we do is we're pizza. So part of what we do is we're pizza. So part of what we do is we're starting to normalize that you can starting to normalize that you can starting to normalize that you can actually fight in a way that is actually fight in a way that is actually fight in a way that is pro-social, that's connected, that's pro-social, that's connected, that's pro-social, that's connected, that's good for the group to help expand good for the group to help expand good for the group to help expand people's comfort with being able to people's comfort with being able to people's comfort with being able to argue about the real stuff. Also, argue about the real stuff. Also, argue about the real stuff. Also, >> does that sort of process also work for >> does that sort of process also work for >> does that sort of process also work for family conflict? family conflict? family conflict? >> I think it depends on the family. Um, I >> I think it depends on the family. Um, I >> I think it depends on the family. Um, I work with a number of intergenerational work with a number of intergenerational work with a number of intergenerational families, often with family foundations families, often with family foundations families, often with family foundations or family businesses. Part of what I see or family businesses. Part of what I see or family businesses. Part of what I see in families is there's a mental model in families is there's a mental model in families is there's a mental model often with the older generation that often with the older generation that often with the older generation that speaking up or disagreeing is not just speaking up or disagreeing is not just speaking up or disagreeing is not just impolite but is disrespectful.

impolite but is disrespectful. impolite but is disrespectful. >> And so [clears throat] part of working >> And so [clears throat] part of working >> And so [clears throat] part of working with families is shifting the mental with families is shifting the mental with families is shifting the mental model of disagreement from being model of disagreement from being model of disagreement from being disrespectful to actually being one of disrespectful to actually being one of disrespectful to actually being one of the highest forms of honor to be able to the highest forms of honor to be able to the highest forms of honor to be able to argue about what matters to a family. argue about what matters to a family. argue about what matters to a family. and my grandfather's funeral in Jessup, and my grandfather's funeral in Jessup, and my grandfather's funeral in Jessup, Iowa, when the when the minister came Iowa, when the when the minister came Iowa, when the when the minister came and gave my grandfather's eulogy, uh and gave my grandfather's eulogy, uh and gave my grandfather's eulogy, uh Lyall Parker, he basically saved his Lyall Parker, he basically saved his Lyall Parker, he basically saved his highest compliment for the end of the highest compliment for the end of the highest compliment for the end of the eulogy and he said, "You know, in my 50 eulogy and he said, "You know, in my 50 eulogy and he said, "You know, in my 50 years in Ruth and Lyall's 50 years of years in Ruth and Lyall's 50 years of years in Ruth and Lyall's 50 years of marriage, they never fought." marriage, they never fought." marriage, they never fought." And my stepmother, a wise woman, leans And my stepmother, a wise woman, leans And my stepmother, a wise woman, leans on the pew next to me and is like, on the pew next to me and is like, on the pew next to me and is like, "That's not a good thing." And part of "That's not a good thing." And part of "That's not a good thing." And part of what I realized in that moment was in so what I realized in that moment was in so what I realized in that moment was in so many circles in so many churches and so many circles in so many churches and so many circles in so many churches and so many families, we believe that conflict many families, we believe that conflict many families, we believe that conflict is close to sin, right? It's immoral. is close to sin, right? It's immoral. is close to sin, right? It's immoral. And so in families, just literally And so in families, just literally And so in families, just literally shifting the belief that all conflict is shifting the belief that all conflict is shifting the belief that all conflict is wrong to actually saying the wrong to actually saying the wrong to actually saying the conversations we're not having is conversations we're not having is conversations we're not having is preventing us from deeper connection as preventing us from deeper connection as preventing us from deeper connection as a family can be a radical shift.

a family can be a radical shift. a family can be a radical shift. >> Yeah. I I want to maybe try and >> Yeah. I I want to maybe try and >> Yeah. I I want to maybe try and complicate that idea a little bit. So complicate that idea a little bit. So complicate that idea a little bit. So you you talk about and you write about you you talk about and you write about you you talk about and you write about conflict as sort of um to do with conflict as sort of um to do with conflict as sort of um to do with healthy inter relationship within a healthy inter relationship within a healthy inter relationship within a group where you know the idea is that group where you know the idea is that group where you know the idea is that people are having the conflict with the people are having the conflict with the people are having the conflict with the other members of the group because other members of the group because other members of the group because actually they want to be in a a actually they want to be in a a actually they want to be in a a different kind of better relationship different kind of better relationship different kind of better relationship with the other members of the group. But with the other members of the group. But with the other members of the group. But I I I can't help but wonder if that's a I I I can't help but wonder if that's a I I I can't help but wonder if that's a little bit um maybe just like a little little bit um maybe just like a little little bit um maybe just like a little bit pie in the sky kind of thinking or bit pie in the sky kind of thinking or bit pie in the sky kind of thinking or or slightly um or slightly um or slightly um >> naive. >> naive. >> naive. >> I don't know. I wouldn't say not naive, >> I don't know. I wouldn't say not naive, >> I don't know. I wouldn't say not naive, but just maybe a little uh certainly but just maybe a little uh certainly but just maybe a little uh certainly more optimistic optimistic than I'm more optimistic optimistic than I'm more optimistic optimistic than I'm inclined to be because I think well inclined to be because I think well inclined to be because I think well actually the fight within a group might actually the fight within a group might actually the fight within a group might be about one be about one be about one uh part of the group just wanting to uh part of the group just wanting to uh part of the group just wanting to dominate the other part of the group or dominate the other part of the group or dominate the other part of the group or one part of the group uh wanting to get one part of the group uh wanting to get one part of the group uh wanting to get rid of the other part of the group. Like rid of the other part of the group. Like rid of the other part of the group. Like is it the case that conflict is like is it the case that conflict is like is it the case that conflict is like necessarily generative in a good way? necessarily generative in a good way? necessarily generative in a good way? >> Not always. Absolutely not. And >> Not always. Absolutely not. And >> Not always. Absolutely not. And basically what you're talking about basically what you're talking about basically what you're talking about which is like sometimes it's just a which is like sometimes it's just a which is like sometimes it's just a power battle, sometimes it's just a power battle, sometimes it's just a power battle, sometimes it's just a fight for dominance. But the type of fight for dominance. But the type of fight for dominance. But the type of conflict I'm interested in and the focus conflict I'm interested in and the focus conflict I'm interested in and the focus of this book is when we get into what I of this book is when we get into what I of this book is when we get into what I call existentialist territory, which is call existentialist territory, which is call existentialist territory, which is when the fight actually starts to touch when the fight actually starts to touch when the fight actually starts to touch on a group's usness. Who are we and what on a group's usness. Who are we and what on a group's usness. Who are we and what are we about? And one of the mistakes we are we about? And one of the mistakes we are we about? And one of the mistakes we make as as as as people is we make as as as as people is we make as as as as people is we overestimate loud fights and we overestimate loud fights and we overestimate loud fights and we underestimate underestimate underestimate >> fights that touch on our our our usness

>> fights that touch on our our our usness >> fights that touch on our our our usness or our weness and and and so there are or our weness and and and so there are or our weness and and and so there are some fights that are just about some fights that are just about some fights that are just about domination or that are just about power domination or that are just about power domination or that are just about power battles and and in that case like you battles and and in that case like you battles and and in that case like you probably don't need to grow warmth. You probably don't need to grow warmth. You probably don't need to grow warmth. You need you need to duke it out. But if you need you need to duke it out. But if you need you need to duke it out. But if you find yourself in a conflict that find yourself in a conflict that find yourself in a conflict that is worthy to sort through, that you is worthy to sort through, that you is worthy to sort through, that you think is actually touching on what makes think is actually touching on what makes think is actually touching on what makes us us and who are we, you're going to us us and who are we, you're going to us us and who are we, you're going to need some skills to duke it out. Right need some skills to duke it out. Right need some skills to duke it out. Right now, we have very few conflict now, we have very few conflict now, we have very few conflict rituals in society. We basically rituals in society. We basically rituals in society. We basically oscillate between pretending oscillate between pretending oscillate between pretending everything's fine and suing each other, everything's fine and suing each other, everything's fine and suing each other, right? And so part or union right? And so part or union right? And so part or union negotiations. ne union negotiations are negotiations. ne union negotiations are negotiations. ne union negotiations are actually a helpful conflict ritual, but actually a helpful conflict ritual, but actually a helpful conflict ritual, but it's for a very specific purpose, right? it's for a very specific purpose, right? it's for a very specific purpose, right? And so you can have a bruising union And so you can have a bruising union And so you can have a bruising union negotiation that's super intense and negotiation that's super intense and negotiation that's super intense and maybe in all of the papers you kind of maybe in all of the papers you kind of maybe in all of the papers you kind of come out bruised from it, but at some come out bruised from it, but at some come out bruised from it, but at some level it's not existential. It's usually level it's not existential. It's usually level it's not existential. It's usually about material benefits and maybe it'll, about material benefits and maybe it'll, about material benefits and maybe it'll, you know, go into existential territory, you know, go into existential territory, you know, go into existential territory, but it it's loud, but it's not but it it's loud, but it's not but it it's loud, but it's not existential versus existential versus existential versus uh a a conversation. And I mean, one of uh a a conversation. And I mean, one of uh a a conversation. And I mean, one of the one of the examples I give in the the one of the examples I give in the the one of the examples I give in the book is um a 150-year-old swim club in book is um a 150-year-old swim club in book is um a 150-year-old swim club in San Francisco where they swim in the San Francisco where they swim in the San Francisco where they swim in the open sea in the San Francisco Bay. And open sea in the San Francisco Bay. And open sea in the San Francisco Bay. And um they have an existential conflict um they have an existential conflict um they have an existential conflict with the invention of the wet suit with the invention of the wet suit with the invention of the wet suit because basically all of a sudden because basically all of a sudden because basically all of a sudden there's those who think that oh great there's those who think that oh great there's those who think that oh great now we have some protection to brave the now we have some protection to brave the now we have some protection to brave the elements.

elements. elements. >> Right. And the others think it's >> Right. And the others think it's >> Right. And the others think it's antithetical to the spirit of the club. antithetical to the spirit of the club. antithetical to the spirit of the club. >> Exactly. And so most people think, oh, >> Exactly. And so most people think, oh, >> Exactly. And so most people think, oh, the union battle is actually we should the union battle is actually we should the union battle is actually we should be paying attention to all this heat be paying attention to all this heat be paying attention to all this heat over there. But in my line of work, I over there. But in my line of work, I over there. But in my line of work, I know that it's actually that wets suit know that it's actually that wets suit know that it's actually that wets suit divide that is touching on the group's divide that is touching on the group's divide that is touching on the group's usness and is much more threatening to usness and is much more threatening to usness and is much more threatening to the group over time than a union battle. the group over time than a union battle. the group over time than a union battle. But what are signs that people should But what are signs that people should But what are signs that people should look out for? Whether it's uh you know look out for? Whether it's uh you know look out for? Whether it's uh you know an interpersonal relationship or or uh an interpersonal relationship or or uh an interpersonal relationship or or uh one's relationship with their job. Signs one's relationship with their job. Signs one's relationship with their job. Signs that would tell them like actually that would tell them like actually that would tell them like actually these conflicts mean this this group is these conflicts mean this this group is these conflicts mean this this group is not for me anymore or this relationship not for me anymore or this relationship not for me anymore or this relationship is not for me because not every conflict is not for me because not every conflict is not for me because not every conflict is resolvable for an individual. And is resolvable for an individual. And is resolvable for an individual. And then also, you know, some conflicts then also, you know, some conflicts then also, you know, some conflicts could still get resolved, but they might could still get resolved, but they might could still get resolved, but they might not jive with sort of what your values not jive with sort of what your values not jive with sort of what your values are or what you think you should be are or what you think you should be are or what you think you should be doing. doing. doing. >> I would sort of back the car up >> I would sort of back the car up >> I would sort of back the car up slightly, which is not all conflict slightly, which is not all conflict slightly, which is not all conflict should be faced. should be faced. should be faced. >> Part of intelligence, part of sort of >> Part of intelligence, part of sort of >> Part of intelligence, part of sort of discernment is knowing when and how discernment is knowing when and how discernment is knowing when and how should I face this and when or how is it should I face this and when or how is it should I face this and when or how is it time to leave. And this is true also in time to leave. And this is true also in time to leave. And this is true also in friend groups. I mean, I think part of friend groups. I mean, I think part of friend groups. I mean, I think part of modern life is that we have choice. Like modern life is that we have choice. Like modern life is that we have choice. Like our ancestors didn't get to choose, our ancestors didn't get to choose, our ancestors didn't get to choose, right? You were in the same village, right? You were in the same village, right? You were in the same village, same village, you didn't go, same god, same village, you didn't go, same god, same village, you didn't go, same god, avoiding the same food. Like the only avoiding the same food. Like the only avoiding the same food. Like the only way of exiting was like to die, you way of exiting was like to die, you way of exiting was like to die, you know? And so part of modern life is we know? And so part of modern life is we know? And so part of modern life is we endlessly can enter and exit different endlessly can enter and exit different endlessly can enter and exit different friend groups, different churches or friend groups, different churches or friend groups, different churches or synagogues or temples, different

synagogues or temples, different synagogues or temples, different relationships. And so part of what relationships. And so part of what relationships. And so part of what happens in friend groups is we we don't happens in friend groups is we we don't happens in friend groups is we we don't have vocabulary because in part modern have vocabulary because in part modern have vocabulary because in part modern friendship is actually sort of a a new friendship is actually sort of a a new friendship is actually sort of a a new phenomenon where you have to decide and phenomenon where you have to decide and phenomenon where you have to decide and can decide are these my people? Do I can decide are these my people? Do I can decide are these my people? Do I still want to be part of this? But let still want to be part of this? But let still want to be part of this? But let me ask uh another ask that question and me ask uh another ask that question and me ask uh another ask that question and connect it to another specific example connect it to another specific example connect it to another specific example which I think is is sort of emblematic which I think is is sort of emblematic which I think is is sort of emblematic of of our contemporary culture which you of of our contemporary culture which you of of our contemporary culture which you know there is this trend of uh know there is this trend of uh know there is this trend of uh within families of children in within families of children in within families of children in particular going no contact, right? particular going no contact, right? particular going no contact, right? Children who have decided that rather Children who have decided that rather Children who have decided that rather than continue to have conflict or than continue to have conflict or than continue to have conflict or tension or you know whatever negative tension or you know whatever negative tension or you know whatever negative emotions they're having, they're opting emotions they're having, they're opting emotions they're having, they're opting out. Um, and I think from the outside it out. Um, and I think from the outside it out. Um, and I think from the outside it can be easy to say, well, that, you can be easy to say, well, that, you can be easy to say, well, that, you know, that's unhealthy or seems like a a know, that's unhealthy or seems like a a know, that's unhealthy or seems like a a drastic step to take. And maybe it is or drastic step to take. And maybe it is or drastic step to take. And maybe it is or maybe it isn't. I'm sure it depends on maybe it isn't. I'm sure it depends on maybe it isn't. I'm sure it depends on the individual situation. But like when the individual situation. But like when the individual situation. But like when you hear about that trend, like what you hear about that trend, like what you hear about that trend, like what what questions do you think people maybe what questions do you think people maybe what questions do you think people maybe should be asking themselves when they should be asking themselves when they should be asking themselves when they make the decision to go no contact with make the decision to go no contact with make the decision to go no contact with their family? I think of Carl Pilmer's their family? I think of Carl Pilmer's their family? I think of Carl Pilmer's work and his study about estrangement.

work and his study about estrangement. work and his study about estrangement. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And it's a totally brilliant book. It's >> And it's a totally brilliant book. It's >> And it's a totally brilliant book. It's called Fault Lines. And one of the called Fault Lines. And one of the called Fault Lines. And one of the things I think that that book did was things I think that that book did was things I think that that book did was first of all it it gave language to and first of all it it gave language to and first of all it it gave language to and normalized estrangement. And I think normalized estrangement. And I think normalized estrangement. And I think part of what Carl Pelmer said was the part of what Carl Pelmer said was the part of what Carl Pelmer said was the people who are able to come back from or people who are able to come back from or people who are able to come back from or move forward from estrangement are move forward from estrangement are move forward from estrangement are people who are willing to let go of a people who are willing to let go of a people who are willing to let go of a unifying narrative unifying narrative unifying narrative to let go of having a shared story of to let go of having a shared story of to let go of having a shared story of what happened. And uh so that's one what happened. And uh so that's one what happened. And uh so that's one thing I think of when you ask that. The thing I think of when you ask that. The thing I think of when you ask that. The second is there are moments in life and second is there are moments in life and second is there are moments in life and I think there are certain situations in I think there are certain situations in I think there are certain situations in which uh cutting off or letting go is uh which uh cutting off or letting go is uh which uh cutting off or letting go is uh is is necessary uh sometimes just for is is necessary uh sometimes just for is is necessary uh sometimes just for safety. I feel like it's a a version of safety. I feel like it's a a version of safety. I feel like it's a a version of a of a question I've asked a couple a of a question I've asked a couple a of a question I've asked a couple times and maybe I'm just not times and maybe I'm just not times and maybe I'm just not articulating it well well enough, but articulating it well well enough, but articulating it well well enough, but how do how do people know whether or not how do how do people know whether or not how do how do people know whether or not they should engage they should engage they should engage in the conflict or not engaging in the in the conflict or not engaging in the in the conflict or not engaging in the conflict is is just the easier thing to conflict is is just the easier thing to conflict is is just the easier thing to do. like the somebody who's who's do. like the somebody who's who's do. like the somebody who's who's thinking of going no contact with their thinking of going no contact with their thinking of going no contact with their the with their parents say like h how do the with their parents say like h how do the with their parents say like h how do they figure out like is this really they figure out like is this really they figure out like is this really what's best for me or am I just doing what's best for me or am I just doing what's best for me or am I just doing the thing that actually feels easier in the thing that actually feels easier in the thing that actually feels easier in the short term.

the short term. the short term. >> I mean I think that asking others yeah >> I mean I think that asking others yeah >> I mean I think that asking others yeah who you trust right is really hard who you trust right is really hard who you trust right is really hard sometimes to sort of see one's own uh sometimes to sort of see one's own uh sometimes to sort of see one's own uh one's own role in a situation. Um, I one's own role in a situation. Um, I one's own role in a situation. Um, I think one of the terms that I think has think one of the terms that I think has think one of the terms that I think has been really helpful that's arisen over been really helpful that's arisen over been really helpful that's arisen over the last decade is the term gaslighting, the last decade is the term gaslighting, the last decade is the term gaslighting, right? Which is like you're in a right? Which is like you're in a right? Which is like you're in a situation is somebody gaslighting you or situation is somebody gaslighting you or situation is somebody gaslighting you or you know or are you crazy? Are they you know or are you crazy? Are they you know or are you crazy? Are they crazy? And so, uh, I would have that crazy? And so, uh, I would have that crazy? And so, uh, I would have that person get a meter check, which is to person get a meter check, which is to person get a meter check, which is to actually ask somebody in your life actually ask somebody in your life actually ask somebody in your life whether [snorts] or not somebody with whether [snorts] or not somebody with whether [snorts] or not somebody with good judgment, someone who's has the good judgment, someone who's has the good judgment, someone who's has the best intent for you. Is this a thing? best intent for you. Is this a thing? best intent for you. Is this a thing? And honestly, someone from a different And honestly, someone from a different And honestly, someone from a different generation. generation. generation. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um someone outside of your circle, >> Um someone outside of your circle, >> Um someone outside of your circle, someone who doesn't have a a dog in the someone who doesn't have a a dog in the someone who doesn't have a a dog in the fight to give be a meter check for you fight to give be a meter check for you fight to give be a meter check for you and to say, "Where and how do you think and to say, "Where and how do you think and to say, "Where and how do you think I should handle this? Am I crazy to be, I should handle this? Am I crazy to be, I should handle this? Am I crazy to be, you know, are they gaslighting me or are you know, are they gaslighting me or are you know, are they gaslighting me or are there other tools here?" Um and to not there other tools here?" Um and to not there other tools here?" Um and to not be in conversation be in conversation be in conversation for that question with other people who for that question with other people who for that question with other people who have also exited.

have also exited. have also exited. >> And what is the the role of compromise >> And what is the the role of compromise >> And what is the the role of compromise in conflict? Because I I know, you know, in conflict? Because I I know, you know, in conflict? Because I I know, you know, when I think back to when I think back to when I think back to through my own career, there have through my own career, there have through my own career, there have definitely been moments where, you know, definitely been moments where, you know, definitely been moments where, you know, rather than engage in in the conflict or rather than engage in in the conflict or rather than engage in in the conflict or continue to engage in a conflict, I continue to engage in a conflict, I continue to engage in a conflict, I said, you know, okay, we can make this said, you know, okay, we can make this said, you know, okay, we can make this compromise even in situations where I compromise even in situations where I compromise even in situations where I don't think the compromise was ever even don't think the compromise was ever even don't think the compromise was ever even going to lead to a better outcome. I going to lead to a better outcome. I going to lead to a better outcome. I just thought, you know, I don't want to just thought, you know, I don't want to just thought, you know, I don't want to deal with that. deal with that. deal with that. >> But do you want to be in relationship >> But do you want to be in relationship >> But do you want to be in relationship with that person? with that person? with that person? >> Well, at the risk of losing my job, >> Well, at the risk of losing my job, >> Well, at the risk of losing my job, probably yes. [laughter] you know, probably yes. [laughter] you know, probably yes. [laughter] you know, right? So, so right? So, so right? So, so >> but h how how can we manage situations >> but h how how can we manage situations >> but h how how can we manage situations so that we can so that we can so that we can >> reduce conflict but also not feel like >> reduce conflict but also not feel like >> reduce conflict but also not feel like we're just ending up settling with we're just ending up settling with we're just ending up settling with compromises all the time. I mean, I compromises all the time. I mean, I compromises all the time. I mean, I think compromise is part of life. And I think compromise is part of life. And I think compromise is part of life. And I I so much of I so much of I so much of so much of human engagement is deciding so much of human engagement is deciding so much of human engagement is deciding what your intent is and and what you what your intent is and and what you what your intent is and and what you want that relationship to be or need to want that relationship to be or need to want that relationship to be or need to be. I mean, in my own life, my father is be. I mean, in my own life, my father is be. I mean, in my own life, my father is a white man from Wateroo, Iowa. He's a white man from Wateroo, Iowa. He's a white man from Wateroo, Iowa. He's conservative. He's Republican. He's a conservative. He's Republican. He's a conservative. He's Republican. He's a evangelical Christian. He is deeply, evangelical Christian. He is deeply, evangelical Christian. He is deeply, deeply important to me. And a huge part deeply important to me. And a huge part deeply important to me. And a huge part of our relationship over the years is of our relationship over the years is of our relationship over the years is finding out where which conversations do finding out where which conversations do finding out where which conversations do we are not helpful for our relationship we are not helpful for our relationship we are not helpful for our relationship and where and how do we have meaningful and where and how do we have meaningful and where and how do we have meaningful rich conversation and interaction and

rich conversation and interaction and rich conversation and interaction and joy despite our differences. And so you joy despite our differences. And so you joy despite our differences. And so you know any meaningful relationship over know any meaningful relationship over know any meaningful relationship over time has difference in it. Even siblings time has difference in it. Even siblings time has difference in it. Even siblings right even within a family even within right even within a family even within right even within a family even within any marriage. And so part of the ability any marriage. And so part of the ability any marriage. And so part of the ability to have compromise is to say, you know to have compromise is to say, you know to have compromise is to say, you know what, I'm not going to win every battle, what, I'm not going to win every battle, what, I'm not going to win every battle, but I can live with this. Compromise is but I can live with this. Compromise is but I can live with this. Compromise is a really important part of any type of a really important part of any type of a really important part of any type of relationship or team. relationship or team. relationship or team. >> You I made sort of a, you know, when I >> You I made sort of a, you know, when I >> You I made sort of a, you know, when I made said the thing about not wanting to made said the thing about not wanting to made said the thing about not wanting to get fired, there was sort of a, you get fired, there was sort of a, you get fired, there was sort of a, you know, a flippant joke a little bit, but know, a flippant joke a little bit, but know, a flippant joke a little bit, but but there's a truth there, which is that but there's a truth there, which is that but there's a truth there, which is that >> in conflicts there are um >> in conflicts there are um >> in conflicts there are um >> power imbalances. And I think this is >> power imbalances. And I think this is >> power imbalances. And I think this is something that in particular shows up in something that in particular shows up in something that in particular shows up in work conflict all the time where there work conflict all the time where there work conflict all the time where there can be a group or or groups or it could can be a group or or groups or it could can be a group or or groups or it could be uh you know between one employee and be uh you know between one employee and be uh you know between one employee and their manager or their boss and it it's their manager or their boss and it it's their manager or their boss and it it's clear that clear that clear that >> someone is in charge >> someone is in charge >> someone is in charge >> and someone probably has the final say. >> and someone probably has the final say. >> and someone probably has the final say. So what limits So what limits So what limits does do power imbalances put on conflict does do power imbalances put on conflict does do power imbalances put on conflict resolution and and in particular how how resolution and and in particular how how resolution and and in particular how how can the person with less power try to can the person with less power try to can the person with less power try to manage that imbalance? Power exists in manage that imbalance? Power exists in manage that imbalance? Power exists in every relationship and in organizations.

every relationship and in organizations. every relationship and in organizations. Hierarchy exists and a hierarchies Hierarchy exists and a hierarchies Hierarchy exists and a hierarchies hierarchy is super helpful, right? This hierarchy is super helpful, right? This hierarchy is super helpful, right? This is how we make this. [laughter] This is is how we make this. [laughter] This is is how we make this. [laughter] This is how sounds like we need to have another how sounds like we need to have another how sounds like we need to have another conversation about your situation now. conversation about your situation now. conversation about your situation now. And and and so my most challenging And and and so my most challenging And and and so my most challenging situations are when a person with power situations are when a person with power situations are when a person with power I doesn't recognize their power. I doesn't recognize their power. I doesn't recognize their power. And often when I work with leaders, when And often when I work with leaders, when And often when I work with leaders, when I work with managers, one of the one of I work with managers, one of the one of I work with managers, one of the one of the sets of coaching that we do is the sets of coaching that we do is the sets of coaching that we do is actually helping those leaders and actually helping those leaders and actually helping those leaders and managers really understand that they managers really understand that they managers really understand that they have disproportionate power. And it's have disproportionate power. And it's have disproportionate power. And it's not the same relationship as if if not the same relationship as if if not the same relationship as if if they're arguing with their brother. It's they're arguing with their brother. It's they're arguing with their brother. It's not the same relationship as if they're not the same relationship as if they're not the same relationship as if they're arguing with their wife or anyone else arguing with their wife or anyone else arguing with their wife or anyone else that that they actually have that that they actually have that that they actually have institutional power over the person. And institutional power over the person. And institutional power over the person. And it's a different it's a different it's a different it's a different it's a different it's a different interaction because you can fire the interaction because you can fire the interaction because you can fire the person. And so a lot of our work is person. And so a lot of our work is person. And so a lot of our work is actually with the people with more power actually with the people with more power actually with the people with more power to use their power well and to and to to use their power well and to and to to use their power well and to and to whether it's saying things like you know whether it's saying things like you know whether it's saying things like you know if you're going to fire somebody say if you're going to fire somebody say if you're going to fire somebody say like this hurts me more than it hurts like this hurts me more than it hurts like this hurts me more than it hurts you like. you like. you like. >> Yeah. No [laughter] it doesn't.

>> Yeah. No [laughter] it doesn't. >> Yeah. No [laughter] it doesn't. >> It definitely doesn't. >> It definitely doesn't. >> It definitely doesn't. >> Even if it hurts you it's like it's not >> Even if it hurts you it's like it's not >> Even if it hurts you it's like it's not the same. the same. the same. >> And so it's not on the it's not the on >> And so it's not on the it's not the on >> And so it's not on the it's not the on the weight of the person with less the weight of the person with less the weight of the person with less power. It's it's their problem but it's power. It's it's their problem but it's power. It's it's their problem but it's not their responsibility. And so not their responsibility. And so not their responsibility. And so organizations get in a lot of trouble organizations get in a lot of trouble organizations get in a lot of trouble when people with power don't think they when people with power don't think they when people with power don't think they have power. in the context of sort of have power. in the context of sort of have power. in the context of sort of workplace conflict resolution. I I just workplace conflict resolution. I I just workplace conflict resolution. I I just was curious if you find that there are was curious if you find that there are was curious if you find that there are um sort of industries or or types of um sort of industries or or types of um sort of industries or or types of businesses that seem less receptive to businesses that seem less receptive to businesses that seem less receptive to your work or also just in in sort of a your work or also just in in sort of a your work or also just in in sort of a broader sense if you've se if you've broader sense if you've se if you've broader sense if you've se if you've seen any sort of cultural changes in the seen any sort of cultural changes in the seen any sort of cultural changes in the corporate world uh in in so far as like corporate world uh in in so far as like corporate world uh in in so far as like an appetite to engage in conflict an appetite to engage in conflict an appetite to engage in conflict resolution because it feels like a cold resolution because it feels like a cold resolution because it feels like a cold >> Yeah. world out there es especially now >> Yeah. world out there es especially now >> Yeah. world out there es especially now >> I think one of the biggest changes in >> I think one of the biggest changes in >> I think one of the biggest changes in corporate culture in the last decade is corporate culture in the last decade is corporate culture in the last decade is the introdu in the is the introduction the introdu in the is the introduction the introdu in the is the introduction of slack of slack of slack >> oh huh >> oh huh >> oh huh >> and I had a my my mentor in conflict >> and I had a my my mentor in conflict >> and I had a my my mentor in conflict resolution was a guy named Hal Saunders resolution was a guy named Hal Saunders resolution was a guy named Hal Saunders and he at the turn of the century or the and he at the turn of the century or the and he at the turn of the century or the last century basically said that in last century basically said that in last century basically said that in negotiation and diplomacy we used to negotiation and diplomacy we used to negotiation and diplomacy we used to think of of negotiation or as as think of of negotiation or as as think of of negotiation or as as conflict as a chess match and he said conflict as a chess match and he said conflict as a chess match and he said basically conflict resolution now in any basically conflict resolution now in any basically conflict resolution now in any type of environment is more like squash type of environment is more like squash type of environment is more like squash court except with like 15 balls at the court except with like 15 balls at the court except with like 15 balls at the same times and mirrors on all of the same times and mirrors on all of the same times and mirrors on all of the walls. What Slack did more than any walls. What Slack did more than any walls. What Slack did more than any other app was it hyper it it other app was it hyper it it other app was it hyper it it turbocharged conflict. It turbocharged

turbocharged conflict. It turbocharged turbocharged conflict. It turbocharged who can create a group or community in who can create a group or community in who can create a group or community in any workplace. It was deeply confusing any workplace. It was deeply confusing any workplace. It was deeply confusing to leadership and it allows anyone to to leadership and it allows anyone to to leadership and it allows anyone to say anything without realizing the say anything without realizing the say anything without realizing the impact that it has on a thousand other impact that it has on a thousand other impact that it has on a thousand other eyeballs, 500 other eyeballs. And so I eyeballs, 500 other eyeballs. And so I eyeballs, 500 other eyeballs. And so I think a lot of the pro a lot of the think a lot of the pro a lot of the think a lot of the pro a lot of the challenges I would say the two biggest challenges I would say the two biggest challenges I would say the two biggest challenges in corporations over the last challenges in corporations over the last challenges in corporations over the last 10 years and the two biggest fights are 10 years and the two biggest fights are 10 years and the two biggest fights are where and what to do about slack and where and what to do about slack and where and what to do about slack and communication and the second is going communication and the second is going communication and the second is going back to work and where work should back to work and where work should back to work and where work should happen. happen. happen. >> Yeah. But let me ask you about Slack >> Yeah. But let me ask you about Slack >> Yeah. But let me ask you about Slack because my experience with Slack is is because my experience with Slack is is because my experience with Slack is is it's an annoying thing that I feel some it's an annoying thing that I feel some it's an annoying thing that I feel some obligation to be on and it makes me feel obligation to be on and it makes me feel obligation to be on and it makes me feel like my brain has to move in 10 like my brain has to move in 10 like my brain has to move in 10 different directions and uh I think why different directions and uh I think why different directions and uh I think why can't this just be an email or is this can't this just be an email or is this can't this just be an email or is this did you really need to ask me about this did you really need to ask me about this did you really need to ask me about this now or uh uh there just the expectation now or uh uh there just the expectation now or uh uh there just the expectation of its use I find kind of of its use I find kind of of its use I find kind of >> crazym and not particularly uh >> crazym and not particularly uh >> crazym and not particularly uh productive. But what what answers do you productive. But what what answers do you productive. But what what answers do you give people to give people to give people to what do we do about Slack?

what do we do about Slack? what do we do about Slack? >> Slack basically in most companies didn't >> Slack basically in most companies didn't >> Slack basically in most companies didn't begin as like a deeply considered begin as like a deeply considered begin as like a deeply considered software enterprise decision. It started software enterprise decision. It started software enterprise decision. It started because you could literally download on because you could literally download on because you could literally download on your app and start creating a channel. your app and start creating a channel. your app and start creating a channel. And so like any type of communication, I And so like any type of communication, I And so like any type of communication, I mean conf in any type of group, your mean conf in any type of group, your mean conf in any type of group, your communication channels are communication channels are communication channels are disproportionately disproportionately disproportionately uh the engines of what people think of uh the engines of what people think of uh the engines of what people think of as where they work, what it means to as where they work, what it means to as where they work, what it means to work here. As I watch Slack, I mean, I work here. As I watch Slack, I mean, I work here. As I watch Slack, I mean, I really look at it more like a really look at it more like a really look at it more like a sociologist. Um, our current uh digital sociologist. Um, our current uh digital sociologist. Um, our current uh digital tools, Slack included, social media tools, Slack included, social media tools, Slack included, social media included, are not designed for healthy included, are not designed for healthy included, are not designed for healthy heat. They're not designed to basically heat. They're not designed to basically heat. They're not designed to basically be able to have uh context or nuance. be able to have uh context or nuance. be able to have uh context or nuance. And and in some cases, Slack can be And and in some cases, Slack can be And and in some cases, Slack can be super helpful to help smaller super helpful to help smaller super helpful to help smaller communities find one another in ways communities find one another in ways communities find one another in ways that doesn't take a lot of that doesn't take a lot of that doesn't take a lot of infrastructure. Um, but Slack can also infrastructure. Um, but Slack can also infrastructure. Um, but Slack can also be Amanda Ripley has uh wrote a book be Amanda Ripley has uh wrote a book be Amanda Ripley has uh wrote a book called High Conflict. She has this great called High Conflict. She has this great called High Conflict. She has this great term called conflict entrepreneurs. um term called conflict entrepreneurs. um term called conflict entrepreneurs. um we're in we're in any group in every we're in we're in any group in every we're in we're in any group in every group and every family and every company group and every family and every company group and every family and every company there's also people who are just in it there's also people who are just in it there's also people who are just in it to like stir up [laughter] to like stir up [laughter] to like stir up [laughter] >> and so Slack can be also really >> and so Slack can be also really >> and so Slack can be also really conducive to that. I often see Slack as conducive to that. I often see Slack as conducive to that. I often see Slack as almost like like smoke [snorts] almost like like smoke [snorts] almost like like smoke [snorts] >> like why why is this all arising? And >> like why why is this all arising? And >> like why why is this all arising? And and part of what I help people do is and part of what I help people do is and part of what I help people do is like look for the fire.

like look for the fire. like look for the fire. >> Oh, it's a symptom of something. >> Oh, it's a symptom of something. >> Oh, it's a symptom of something. >> It's a symptom of something. And so if >> It's a symptom of something. And so if >> It's a symptom of something. And so if people are like, you know, saying all people are like, you know, saying all people are like, you know, saying all sorts of stuff on Slack or starting sorts of stuff on Slack or starting sorts of stuff on Slack or starting these side channels, that's usually a these side channels, that's usually a these side channels, that's usually a symptom of a malaise. symptom of a malaise. symptom of a malaise. >> And I think, you know, whenever people >> And I think, you know, whenever people >> And I think, you know, whenever people hear about um conflict and group hear about um conflict and group hear about um conflict and group conflict now, uh I shouldn't say conflict now, uh I shouldn't say conflict now, uh I shouldn't say whenever, but often like their minds whenever, but often like their minds whenever, but often like their minds understandably turn to political understandably turn to political understandably turn to political conflict, right? Are you confident or do conflict, right? Are you confident or do conflict, right? Are you confident or do you have a sense that the ideas that you you have a sense that the ideas that you you have a sense that the ideas that you talk about as far as conflict resolution talk about as far as conflict resolution talk about as far as conflict resolution also work when extended to conflict also work when extended to conflict also work when extended to conflict between larger political groups? between larger political groups? between larger political groups? >> I think that we have examples in our >> I think that we have examples in our >> I think that we have examples in our politics that are deeply unhealthy politics that are deeply unhealthy politics that are deeply unhealthy conflict and I think we also have conflict and I think we also have conflict and I think we also have examples that are starting to look at examples that are starting to look at examples that are starting to look at more healthy conflict. There's a huge more healthy conflict. There's a huge more healthy conflict. There's a huge conflict right now happening within the conflict right now happening within the conflict right now happening within the DSA and the Democrats, right? The DSA is DSA and the Democrats, right? The DSA is DSA and the Democrats, right? The DSA is sort of like the jilted lovers of the sort of like the jilted lovers of the sort of like the jilted lovers of the Democrats. They want to they're they're Democrats. They want to they're they're Democrats. They want to they're they're they're saying like I wish you could they're saying like I wish you could they're saying like I wish you could only see the world we think can exist.

only see the world we think can exist. only see the world we think can exist. And so part of that fighting is actually And so part of that fighting is actually And so part of that fighting is actually tapping into what the conflict tapping into what the conflict tapping into what the conflict resolution facilitator set calls resolution facilitator set calls resolution facilitator set calls relational longing. And I think in all relational longing. And I think in all relational longing. And I think in all types of political, particularly in types of political, particularly in types of political, particularly in political uh conflict, tapping into that political uh conflict, tapping into that political uh conflict, tapping into that that that relational longing is a way to that that relational longing is a way to that that relational longing is a way to actually be able to widen the tent. And actually be able to widen the tent. And actually be able to widen the tent. And and but the the second thing is even and but the the second thing is even and but the the second thing is even across political divides when you bring across political divides when you bring across political divides when you bring people into the same room or when they people into the same room or when they people into the same room or when they have a shared community that often isn't have a shared community that often isn't have a shared community that often isn't even about politics. It might be their even about politics. It might be their even about politics. It might be their neighborhood association, it might be neighborhood association, it might be neighborhood association, it might be their uh kickball club, it might be their uh kickball club, it might be their uh kickball club, it might be their trivia night. actually having a their trivia night. actually having a their trivia night. actually having a second identity where they're able to second identity where they're able to second identity where they're able to where they're able to, you know, come where they're able to, you know, come where they're able to, you know, come together around um expands their ability together around um expands their ability together around um expands their ability to also be in community with each other to also be in community with each other to also be in community with each other across and within those political across and within those political across and within those political differences. differences. differences. >> I guess though one of the the big >> I guess though one of the the big >> I guess though one of the the big questions that that feels a little uh questions that that feels a little uh questions that that feels a little uh undetermined at the moment is how much undetermined at the moment is how much undetermined at the moment is how much actually do some of the groups that are actually do some of the groups that are actually do some of the groups that are in conflict now want to be in in in conflict now want to be in in in conflict now want to be in in relationship. I agree. And I think one relationship. I agree. And I think one relationship. I agree. And I think one of the deepest dangers of our country is of the deepest dangers of our country is of the deepest dangers of our country is we've fallen out of love with each we've fallen out of love with each we've fallen out of love with each other. And other. And other. And that relational longing, when you no that relational longing, when you no that relational longing, when you no longer have relational longing, you just longer have relational longing, you just longer have relational longing, you just leave. You exit. And that's one of the leave. You exit. And that's one of the leave. You exit. And that's one of the most dangerous. I mean, I don't work in most dangerous. I mean, I don't work in most dangerous. I mean, I don't work in places where people don't still have places where people don't still have places where people don't still have some amount of desire or need for each some amount of desire or need for each some amount of desire or need for each other because then you you just break other because then you you just break other because then you you just break up, up, up, >> right? And so I think one of the when I >> right? And so I think one of the when I >> right? And so I think one of the when I work with organizations, with work with organizations, with work with organizations, with communities, with churches, one of the

communities, with churches, one of the communities, with churches, one of the things that I tell leaders is like things that I tell leaders is like things that I tell leaders is like continue to find and cultivate that continue to find and cultivate that continue to find and cultivate that relational longing, that residual desire relational longing, that residual desire relational longing, that residual desire to still want to be in community with to still want to be in community with to still want to be in community with each other. And I think going back to each other. And I think going back to each other. And I think going back to our conversation earlier around our conversation earlier around our conversation earlier around families, I think families sometimes families, I think families sometimes families, I think families sometimes have it's the hardest place to be. It's have it's the hardest place to be. It's have it's the hardest place to be. It's it's the it's can sometimes be the it's the it's can sometimes be the it's the it's can sometimes be the scariest place to be. But families also, scariest place to be. But families also, scariest place to be. But families also, particularly across political divides, particularly across political divides, particularly across political divides, which are many families in this country, which are many families in this country, which are many families in this country, still have a residual desire for one still have a residual desire for one still have a residual desire for one another. And so when we fall out of love another. And so when we fall out of love another. And so when we fall out of love with one another, that's a dangerous with one another, that's a dangerous with one another, that's a dangerous place to be. place to be. place to be. >> On the interview, we talked to our guest >> On the interview, we talked to our guest >> On the interview, we talked to our guest twice. So a week later, [music] I spoke twice. So a week later, [music] I spoke twice. So a week later, [music] I spoke to Pria Parker again about how she to Pria Parker again about how she to Pria Parker again about how she handles conflict at home. handles conflict at home. handles conflict at home. Hi Pria, how are you? Hi Pria, how are you? Hi Pria, how are you? >> Hi David, I'm great. How are you? >> Hi David, I'm great. How are you? >> Hi David, I'm great. How are you? >> Good. I have a real bone to pick with >> Good. I have a real bone to pick with >> Good. I have a real bone to pick with you. you. you. >> Let's go for it. >> Let's go for it. >> Let's go for it. >> No, I don't. I just thought [laughter] >> No, I don't. I just thought [laughter] >> No, I don't. I just thought [laughter] start with try and start with a pretend start with try and start with a pretend start with try and start with a pretend conflict, but I have no no issue with conflict, but I have no no issue with conflict, but I have no no issue with you at all. you at all. you at all. >> You got nothing. >> You got nothing. >> You got nothing. >> I got nothing. Um, but you know to start >> I got nothing. Um, but you know to start >> I got nothing. Um, but you know to start I was very intrigued by the way you I was very intrigued by the way you I was very intrigued by the way you described yourself as a conflict averse described yourself as a conflict averse described yourself as a conflict averse person.

person. person. >> Um, >> Um, >> Um, >> so h how does your own conflict aversion >> so h how does your own conflict aversion >> so h how does your own conflict aversion show up in your life? show up in your life? show up in your life? When I am in a tense situation with When I am in a tense situation with When I am in a tense situation with somebody that I love, with my husband, somebody that I love, with my husband, somebody that I love, with my husband, with my children, in with my friends, my with my children, in with my friends, my with my children, in with my friends, my palms get super sweaty, my heart starts palms get super sweaty, my heart starts palms get super sweaty, my heart starts palpitating. Sometimes in a really good palpitating. Sometimes in a really good palpitating. Sometimes in a really good fight, I'll feel slightly faint. fight, I'll feel slightly faint. fight, I'll feel slightly faint. [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] And I have come to realize and recognize And I have come to realize and recognize And I have come to realize and recognize that all fighting actually is physical, that all fighting actually is physical, that all fighting actually is physical, just not in the way we think. just not in the way we think. just not in the way we think. And the physicality of what actually And the physicality of what actually And the physicality of what actually happens in our bodies within ourselves happens in our bodies within ourselves happens in our bodies within ourselves actually deeply affects our ability to actually deeply affects our ability to actually deeply affects our ability to fight or stay. And so my conflict fight or stay. And so my conflict fight or stay. And so my conflict aversion is something that uh continues. aversion is something that uh continues. aversion is something that uh continues. I'm still physically conflict averse and I'm still physically conflict averse and I'm still physically conflict averse and I actually as a facilitator but also in I actually as a facilitator but also in I actually as a facilitator but also in my own life have very simple practices my own life have very simple practices my own life have very simple practices to just notice this is happening uh to to just notice this is happening uh to to just notice this is happening uh to breathe to not exit. And so my conflict breathe to not exit. And so my conflict breathe to not exit. And so my conflict aversion shows up all the time, but I aversion shows up all the time, but I aversion shows up all the time, but I have learned how to basically stay in have learned how to basically stay in have learned how to basically stay in the heat.

the heat. the heat. >> And so you you have these uh tactics for >> And so you you have these uh tactics for >> And so you you have these uh tactics for how to kind of physically manage the how to kind of physically manage the how to kind of physically manage the feelings of of conflict aversion. Um but feelings of of conflict aversion. Um but feelings of of conflict aversion. Um but what advice do you have for people about what advice do you have for people about what advice do you have for people about how to mentally and cognitively how to mentally and cognitively how to mentally and cognitively deal with uh the conflict aversion? cuz deal with uh the conflict aversion? cuz deal with uh the conflict aversion? cuz it's it's one thing to sort of not flee. it's it's one thing to sort of not flee. it's it's one thing to sort of not flee. It's another thing to then um behave in It's another thing to then um behave in It's another thing to then um behave in a productive manner in the conflict. a productive manner in the conflict. a productive manner in the conflict. >> It's to deeply reframe conflict as reframe conflict as an investment in the person. an investment in the person. an investment in the person. And I mean I do this with my family with And I mean I do this with my family with And I mean I do this with my family with my even in my own household when my my even in my own household when my my even in my own household when my husband and I start you know really husband and I start you know really husband and I start you know really getting into it um or arguing about getting into it um or arguing about getting into it um or arguing about something and if my children happen to something and if my children happen to something and if my children happen to be in the room I will look at them and be in the room I will look at them and be in the room I will look at them and say it's okay that we're fighting. We're say it's okay that we're fighting. We're say it's okay that we're fighting. We're arguing because we love each other. This arguing because we love each other. This arguing because we love each other. This is an important conversation. And I'm is an important conversation. And I'm is an important conversation. And I'm kind of saying it as much to them as I kind of saying it as much to them as I kind of saying it as much to them as I am to myself. And part and and part of am to myself. And part and and part of am to myself. And part and and part of that is because we tend to think of that is because we tend to think of that is because we tend to think of conflict as antagonistic, but conflict conflict as antagonistic, but conflict conflict as antagonistic, but conflict can actually be incredibly pro-social.

can actually be incredibly pro-social. can actually be incredibly pro-social. And so very simply, it's like first is And so very simply, it's like first is And so very simply, it's like first is checking in with oneself and saying, "Do checking in with oneself and saying, "Do checking in with oneself and saying, "Do I care about this relationship?" And I care about this relationship?" And I care about this relationship?" And counterintuitively, if I do, counterintuitively, if I do, counterintuitively, if I do, let me get in there. Can I ask when let me get in there. Can I ask when let me get in there. Can I ask when you're in a uh fight or conflict with you're in a uh fight or conflict with you're in a uh fight or conflict with your husband does [laughter] your husband does [laughter] your husband does [laughter] and is he ever like stop doing the and is he ever like stop doing the and is he ever like stop doing the techniques on me? I know what [laughter] techniques on me? I know what [laughter] techniques on me? I know what [laughter] >> of course don't facilitate me. Uh of >> of course don't facilitate me. Uh of >> of course don't facilitate me. Uh of course and and you know part of uh part course and and you know part of uh part course and and you know part of uh part of my husband is uh very comfortable of my husband is uh very comfortable of my husband is uh very comfortable with conflict. I've learned a lot from with conflict. I've learned a lot from with conflict. I've learned a lot from him, but a huge part of our it's it can him, but a huge part of our it's it can him, but a huge part of our it's it can be very frustrating because I know what be very frustrating because I know what be very frustrating because I know what the tools are, but [laughter] we're not the tools are, but [laughter] we're not the tools are, but [laughter] we're not always using them. And when I'm in a always using them. And when I'm in a always using them. And when I'm in a fight with my husband, I'm a wife. I fight with my husband, I'm a wife. I fight with my husband, I'm a wife. I can't be a facilitator. But I do try to can't be a facilitator. But I do try to can't be a facilitator. But I do try to practice some of these skills. And also practice some of these skills. And also practice some of these skills. And also afterwards when we've, you know, when afterwards when we've, you know, when afterwards when we've, you know, when when we've kind of gotten through the when we've kind of gotten through the when we've kind of gotten through the fight and we're either joking about it fight and we're either joking about it fight and we're either joking about it or debriefing, um I think actually over or debriefing, um I think actually over or debriefing, um I think actually over time both of us try to practice some of time both of us try to practice some of time both of us try to practice some of these some of these skills and you you these some of these skills and you you these some of these skills and you you can actually get better at fighting. I can actually get better at fighting. I can actually get better at fighting. I have. He's always been good at it. I've have. He's always been good at it. I've have. He's always been good at it. I've gotten better. [laughter] gotten better. [laughter] gotten better. [laughter] >> And you know, you the way you just >> And you know, you the way you just >> And you know, you the way you just described your husband as someone who's described your husband as someone who's described your husband as someone who's good at fighting um for for me uh good at fighting um for for me uh good at fighting um for for me uh conjures up a connection with a certain conjures up a connection with a certain conjures up a connection with a certain personality type or even certain group personality type or even certain group personality type or even certain group type, which is groups or individuals who type, which is groups or individuals who type, which is groups or individuals who who are kind of always uh poised for who are kind of always uh poised for who are kind of always uh poised for conflict. And I I want to know your

conflict. And I I want to know your conflict. And I I want to know your guidance for how best to engage in a guidance for how best to engage in a guidance for how best to engage in a conflict with those people because I conflict with those people because I conflict with those people because I find that my reaction often is like I'm find that my reaction often is like I'm find that my reaction often is like I'm just going to, you know, uh pass the just going to, you know, uh pass the just going to, you know, uh pass the buck or just avoid it for whatever buck or just avoid it for whatever buck or just avoid it for whatever reason or just like not engage because reason or just like not engage because reason or just like not engage because the idea of of bringing something up the idea of of bringing something up the idea of of bringing something up with someone who I know is immediately with someone who I know is immediately with someone who I know is immediately going to have their fists up and it's going to have their fists up and it's going to have their fists up and it's like I just would rather not bother with like I just would rather not bother with like I just would rather not bother with this. But what h how might we smooth the this. But what h how might we smooth the this. But what h how might we smooth the way through our conflict with people who way through our conflict with people who way through our conflict with people who are who are like ready to fight? are who are like ready to fight? are who are like ready to fight? >> This dynamic exists everywhere. There's >> This dynamic exists everywhere. There's >> This dynamic exists everywhere. There's and you're often married to the person, and you're often married to the person, and you're often married to the person, right? The person who wants to fight and right? The person who wants to fight and right? The person who wants to fight and the person who doesn't. Uh there's a the person who doesn't. Uh there's a the person who doesn't. Uh there's a great piece by Raina Cohen in the great piece by Raina Cohen in the great piece by Raina Cohen in the Atlantic and she looks at couples who Atlantic and she looks at couples who Atlantic and she looks at couples who schedule their fights and one of the schedule their fights and one of the schedule their fights and one of the things that they found their fights things that they found their fights things that they found their fights really schedule their fights. And really schedule their fights. And really schedule their fights. And [snorts] one of the things that they do [snorts] one of the things that they do [snorts] one of the things that they do is they they schedule fights. I have a is they they schedule fights. I have a is they they schedule fights. I have a weekly checkup almost like a dentist weekly checkup almost like a dentist weekly checkup almost like a dentist cleaning or a monthly fight. And what cleaning or a monthly fight. And what cleaning or a monthly fight. And what this does is when you actually have, you this does is when you actually have, you this does is when you actually have, you know, a time to a time for the fight, know, a time to a time for the fight, know, a time to a time for the fight, the conflict-seeking person can can the conflict-seeking person can can the conflict-seeking person can can almost the conflict averse person be almost the conflict averse person be almost the conflict averse person be like, "Save it for Tuesday." [laughter] like, "Save it for Tuesday." [laughter] like, "Save it for Tuesday." [laughter] And the conflict seeeking person who And the conflict seeeking person who And the conflict seeeking person who feels like the their conflict averse feels like the their conflict averse feels like the their conflict averse partner is like never willing to have a partner is like never willing to have a partner is like never willing to have a fight knows, okay, fine, we have that fight knows, okay, fine, we have that fight knows, okay, fine, we have that for Tuesday. And it might sound kind of for Tuesday. And it might sound kind of for Tuesday. And it might sound kind of bizarre, but actually many like I bizarre, but actually many like I bizarre, but actually many like I studied um traditional and indigenous studied um traditional and indigenous studied um traditional and indigenous communities of how they dealt with communities of how they dealt with communities of how they dealt with internal conflict and almost all of them internal conflict and almost all of them internal conflict and almost all of them had specific times and places to

had specific times and places to had specific times and places to regularly sort through internal regularly sort through internal regularly sort through internal conflict. Part of what we are lacking in conflict. Part of what we are lacking in conflict. Part of what we are lacking in modern life is is is rituals to hold modern life is is is rituals to hold modern life is is is rituals to hold things that are hard. It allows us as as things that are hard. It allows us as as things that are hard. It allows us as as humans, as friends, to have a place humans, as friends, to have a place humans, as friends, to have a place where we know we can sort of take this where we know we can sort of take this where we know we can sort of take this stuff and in part because we assume that stuff and in part because we assume that stuff and in part because we assume that conflict is dysfunctional. We don't even conflict is dysfunctional. We don't even conflict is dysfunctional. We don't even know that there are ways that we can know that there are ways that we can know that there are ways that we can actually embed this into daily life. actually embed this into daily life. actually embed this into daily life. >> Can you share a conflict in your life >> Can you share a conflict in your life >> Can you share a conflict in your life that you're working on right now? that you're working on right now? that you're working on right now? [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] >> Oh my god, so many. When I feel like >> Oh my god, so many. When I feel like >> Oh my god, so many. When I feel like when you're a parent, there are when you're a parent, there are when you're a parent, there are conflicts all over the place. Um, I conflicts all over the place. Um, I conflicts all over the place. Um, I mean, I think one conflict that I uh mean, I think one conflict that I uh mean, I think one conflict that I uh that I like a a larger question that I that I like a a larger question that I that I like a a larger question that I really hold as a parent is I have an 8 really hold as a parent is I have an 8 really hold as a parent is I have an 8 and 11year-old currently is if and when and 11year-old currently is if and when and 11year-old currently is if and when my children are with their peer set and my children are with their peer set and my children are with their peer set and uh you know something happens between uh you know something happens between uh you know something happens between two kids, as is totally normal, when and two kids, as is totally normal, when and two kids, as is totally normal, when and how to pick up the phone and call the how to pick up the phone and call the how to pick up the phone and call the other parent or when to just sort of let other parent or when to just sort of let other parent or when to just sort of let it wash out. Um, a and I think that it wash out. Um, a and I think that it wash out. Um, a and I think that that's like a really I think that's a that's like a really I think that's a that's like a really I think that's a really deep conflict within and across really deep conflict within and across really deep conflict within and across parent communities of how much do you parent communities of how much do you parent communities of how much do you sort of let kids sort it out and how sort of let kids sort it out and how sort of let kids sort it out and how much is it actually our job to get in much is it actually our job to get in much is it actually our job to get in there and give them some skills. I do there and give them some skills. I do there and give them some skills. I do this actually just with my own children.

this actually just with my own children. this actually just with my own children. um the practice of normalizing apology. um the practice of normalizing apology. um the practice of normalizing apology. If and when they do something to, you If and when they do something to, you If and when they do something to, you know, hurt or annoy one another and know, hurt or annoy one another and know, hurt or annoy one another and [snorts] we uh and they apologize, [snorts] we uh and they apologize, [snorts] we uh and they apologize, I help them practice actually a full I help them practice actually a full I help them practice actually a full apology to actually articulate what it apology to actually articulate what it apology to actually articulate what it is that they did and not, you know, say is that they did and not, you know, say is that they did and not, you know, say like, you know, I'm sorry you were like, you know, I'm sorry you were like, you know, I'm sorry you were offended [laughter] offended [laughter] offended [laughter] and and practicing actually ownership and and practicing actually ownership and and practicing actually ownership and accountability. And then actually on and accountability. And then actually on and accountability. And then actually on the receiving side, I help them I you the receiving side, I help them I you the receiving side, I help them I you know instead of saying um it's fine, know instead of saying um it's fine, know instead of saying um it's fine, it's okay, right? If somebody apologized it's okay, right? If somebody apologized it's okay, right? If somebody apologized to you, I I have them say or I I invite to you, I I have them say or I I invite to you, I I have them say or I I invite them to say they don't always listen them to say they don't always listen them to say they don't always listen thank you because it actually they're thank you because it actually they're thank you because it actually they're actually then it's actually quite actually then it's actually quite actually then it's actually quite vulnerable to admit that someone vulnerable to admit that someone vulnerable to admit that someone affected you. And that simple practice affected you. And that simple practice affected you. And that simple practice and everyday interactions with young and everyday interactions with young and everyday interactions with young people is actually the same skills we do people is actually the same skills we do people is actually the same skills we do at the highest levels with colleagues at the highest levels with colleagues at the highest levels with colleagues with conflict in much higher stakes with conflict in much higher stakes with conflict in much higher stakes contexts. But we are so averse to contexts. But we are so averse to contexts. But we are so averse to apologizing. We're not taught how to.

apologizing. We're not taught how to. apologizing. We're not taught how to. And we're so averse to even knowing how And we're so averse to even knowing how And we're so averse to even knowing how to accept someone's apology. Uh it's a to accept someone's apology. Uh it's a to accept someone's apology. Uh it's a huge problem with with just the daily huge problem with with just the daily huge problem with with just the daily masserations of of group life. masserations of of group life. masserations of of group life. >> It really is an amazing thing, isn't it? >> It really is an amazing thing, isn't it? >> It really is an amazing thing, isn't it? the way that some people just will not the way that some people just will not the way that some people just will not apologize or or will or will not admit apologize or or will or will not admit apologize or or will or will not admit uh wrongdoing. uh wrongdoing. uh wrongdoing. >> Entire families get incredibly and teams >> Entire families get incredibly and teams >> Entire families get incredibly and teams get incredibly stuck when we don't have get incredibly stuck when we don't have get incredibly stuck when we don't have the tools and skills. And I will call it the tools and skills. And I will call it the tools and skills. And I will call it a tool and a skill to apologize. And in a tool and a skill to apologize. And in a tool and a skill to apologize. And in part because when we are in relationship part because when we are in relationship part because when we are in relationship or when in conversation with one or when in conversation with one or when in conversation with one another, if you are unwilling or unable another, if you are unwilling or unable another, if you are unwilling or unable to actually admit that you are ever to actually admit that you are ever to actually admit that you are ever wrong, it creates this huge distortion wrong, it creates this huge distortion wrong, it creates this huge distortion within the entire group. And so one of within the entire group. And so one of within the entire group. And so one of the simplest ways to actually the simplest ways to actually the simplest ways to actually like get a group to get unstuck is like get a group to get unstuck is like get a group to get unstuck is simply practicing people articulating simply practicing people articulating simply practicing people articulating the elements that have hurt them or the elements that have hurt them or the elements that have hurt them or annoyed them and the other person annoyed them and the other person annoyed them and the other person practicing listening and accepting. Pri practicing listening and accepting. Pri practicing listening and accepting. Pri I also wanted to ask you that in our I also wanted to ask you that in our I also wanted to ask you that in our previous conversation I had brought up previous conversation I had brought up previous conversation I had brought up the idea of like how do how we might the idea of like how do how we might the idea of like how do how we might reduce conflict in ways that don't also reduce conflict in ways that don't also reduce conflict in ways that don't also feel like we're just compromising and feel like we're just compromising and feel like we're just compromising and and you gave this example of um your and you gave this example of um your and you gave this example of um your relationship with your dad and how you relationship with your dad and how you relationship with your dad and how you have kind it sounded like different have kind it sounded like different have kind it sounded like different political beliefs some social beliefs political beliefs some social beliefs political beliefs some social beliefs that are different and and you just sort that are different and and you just sort that are different and and you just sort of made the decision that it was best of made the decision that it was best of made the decision that it was best for you to not talk about that kind of for you to not talk about that kind of for you to not talk about that kind of stuff or or table it. And the thing that

stuff or or table it. And the thing that stuff or or table it. And the thing that I didn't understand is like h how is how I didn't understand is like h how is how I didn't understand is like h how is how is that different than just avoiding the is that different than just avoiding the is that different than just avoiding the conflict? Like why is that a a conflict? Like why is that a a conflict? Like why is that a a productive move for you and your dad to productive move for you and your dad to productive move for you and your dad to make rather than the thing that it seems make rather than the thing that it seems make rather than the thing that it seems like you're often counseling against, like you're often counseling against, like you're often counseling against, which is burying the problem? There was which is burying the problem? There was which is burying the problem? There was a study done that looked at a study done that looked at a study done that looked at uh how important political identities uh how important political identities uh how important political identities were uh to Americans and over the last were uh to Americans and over the last were uh to Americans and over the last 10 years particularly with the election 10 years particularly with the election 10 years particularly with the election of Donald Trump that uh that identity of Donald Trump that uh that identity of Donald Trump that uh that identity has moved way up the way up the ladder has moved way up the way up the ladder has moved way up the way up the ladder in terms of importance and there was a in terms of importance and there was a in terms of importance and there was a Christian theologian called Joyce Anne Christian theologian called Joyce Anne Christian theologian called Joyce Anne Mercer and she writes a story and I Mercer and she writes a story and I Mercer and she writes a story and I could relate to it about how she and her could relate to it about how she and her could relate to it about how she and her family come across the political aisle family come across the political aisle family come across the political aisle would come together for Thanksgiving or would come together for Thanksgiving or would come together for Thanksgiving or family reunions and they used to be able family reunions and they used to be able family reunions and they used to be able to 20 years ago, 30 years each other to 20 years ago, 30 years each other to 20 years ago, 30 years each other kind of tease each other and engage in kind of tease each other and engage in kind of tease each other and engage in these conversations and uh and it was these conversations and uh and it was these conversations and uh and it was kind of all in good fun. And over the kind of all in good fun. And over the kind of all in good fun. And over the last four years uh uh the vibe was off last four years uh uh the vibe was off last four years uh uh the vibe was off [laughter] [laughter] [laughter] and what actually be what what the and what actually be what what the and what actually be what what the stakes in the country on both sides on stakes in the country on both sides on stakes in the country on both sides on all sides began to be perceived one as all sides began to be perceived one as all sides began to be perceived one as much higher and the political identity much higher and the political identity much higher and the political identity uh was also perceived as being getting uh was also perceived as being getting uh was also perceived as being getting closer and closer to disgust and having closer and closer to disgust and having closer and closer to disgust and having different moral worlds. And part of what different moral worlds. And part of what different moral worlds. And part of what she advocated for is she said when you she advocated for is she said when you she advocated for is she said when you have a relationship in which you want to have a relationship in which you want to have a relationship in which you want to maintain ties for any reason and there maintain ties for any reason and there maintain ties for any reason and there there is a line that around which if you

there is a line that around which if you there is a line that around which if you enter you're not going to be able to enter you're not going to be able to enter you're not going to be able to sort of come back from. She encourages sort of come back from. She encourages sort of come back from. She encourages engaging in strategic conflict engaging in strategic conflict engaging in strategic conflict avoidance. And as I read that essay it avoidance. And as I read that essay it avoidance. And as I read that essay it helped me understand the many decades helped me understand the many decades helped me understand the many decades long conversation that I've had with long conversation that I've had with long conversation that I've had with with my particularly with my father. um with my particularly with my father. um with my particularly with my father. um as I think many young people or young as I think many young people or young as I think many young people or young adults or adults have with parents of a adults or adults have with parents of a adults or adults have with parents of a different political ilk and at some different political ilk and at some different political ilk and at some level it's not actually avoidance if level it's not actually avoidance if level it's not actually avoidance if you've had the if you've had every you've had the if you've had every you've had the if you've had every conversation over and over and over conversation over and over and over conversation over and over and over again and realize you're not going to again and realize you're not going to again and realize you're not going to change this person but you still want to change this person but you still want to change this person but you still want to be in relationship with them and so one be in relationship with them and so one be in relationship with them and so one of the things that I found both in my of the things that I found both in my of the things that I found both in my own relationship with my father but also own relationship with my father but also own relationship with my father but also as as I'm looking at the country is to as as I'm looking at the country is to as as I'm looking at the country is to to grow the warmth to grow the warmth to grow the warmth between the pe the people that you love between the pe the people that you love between the pe the people that you love and to have fun together and to remember and to have fun together and to remember and to have fun together and to remember why all of the different reasons you why all of the different reasons you why all of the different reasons you love one another. It it's almost like in love one another. It it's almost like in love one another. It it's almost like in physical therapy if there's like a if physical therapy if there's like a if physical therapy if there's like a if there's a wound or there's a breakage, there's a wound or there's a breakage, there's a wound or there's a breakage, you don't go directly for where for the you don't go directly for where for the you don't go directly for where for the for the wound, you work around the tear for the wound, you work around the tear for the wound, you work around the tear and to strengthen the muscle. And and to strengthen the muscle. And and to strengthen the muscle. And similarly in relationships, you work similarly in relationships, you work similarly in relationships, you work around the tear to strengthen the muscle around the tear to strengthen the muscle around the tear to strengthen the muscle in part to be able to have a in part to be able to have a in part to be able to have a relationship with them. So, let's say uh relationship with them. So, let's say uh relationship with them. So, let's say uh someone has has fully immersed someone has has fully immersed someone has has fully immersed themselves in in the art of gathering themselves in in the art of gathering themselves in in the art of gathering and the art of fighting and feels like, and the art of fighting and feels like, and the art of fighting and feels like, okay, I've got a I got a handle on on okay, I've got a I got a handle on on okay, I've got a I got a handle on on [laughter] productive uh uh group [laughter] productive uh uh group [laughter] productive uh uh group gathering and and also how to deal with gathering and and also how to deal with gathering and and also how to deal with conflict within groups. Like, what's the

conflict within groups. Like, what's the conflict within groups. Like, what's the next thing that person should be working next thing that person should be working next thing that person should be working on? on? on? >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. >> That's a great question. [sighs] [sighs] [sighs] [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] I mean, I am interested in all of the I mean, I am interested in all of the I mean, I am interested in all of the different tools of how a group or a different tools of how a group or a different tools of how a group or a community becomes community becomes community becomes thriving in a place people want to be a thriving in a place people want to be a thriving in a place people want to be a part of. I think I'm in I'm very part of. I think I'm in I'm very part of. I think I'm in I'm very interested in gifts, interested in gifts, interested in gifts, the role of gifts in society and in the role of gifts in society and in the role of gifts in society and in between communities. I think uh we have between communities. I think uh we have between communities. I think uh we have a flat understanding of gifts and I a flat understanding of gifts and I a flat understanding of gifts and I think gifts are incredibly important and think gifts are incredibly important and think gifts are incredibly important and interesting in terms of uh uh helping a interesting in terms of uh uh helping a interesting in terms of uh uh helping a group understand what it is in terms of group understand what it is in terms of group understand what it is in terms of power in terms of uh love. I think power in terms of uh love. I think power in terms of uh love. I think there's a lot of uh I think there's a there's a lot of uh I think there's a there's a lot of uh I think there's a lot more understanding we could have lot more understanding we could have lot more understanding we could have about the role of gifts in groups and about the role of gifts in groups and about the role of gifts in groups and communities communities communities >> and and somewhere out there I think a >> and and somewhere out there I think a >> and and somewhere out there I think a lot of book editors ears have just perk lot of book editors ears have just perk lot of book editors ears have just perk [laughter] per perked up the art of [laughter] per perked up the art of [laughter] per perked up the art of giftgiving holiday season 2028. But giftgiving holiday season 2028. But giftgiving holiday season 2028. But thank you thank you so much for taking thank you thank you so much for taking thank you thank you so much for taking all the time to speak with me. I really all the time to speak with me. I really all the time to speak with me. I really enjoyed it and thought it was really enjoyed it and thought it was really enjoyed it and thought it was really interesting. [music] So So thank you.

interesting. [music] So So thank you. interesting. [music] So So thank you. >> Thank you. Thank you so much for for >> Thank you. Thank you so much for for >> Thank you. Thank you so much for for having me and uh I hope you're a little having me and uh I hope you're a little having me and uh I hope you're a little less uh conflict [music] averse next less uh conflict [music] averse next less uh conflict [music] averse next time. [laughter] time. [laughter] time. [laughter] All right. I'm Lulu [music] Garcia Navaro I'm Lulu [music] Garcia Navaro >> and I'm David Maresy >> and I'm David Maresy >> and I'm David Maresy >> and we're the hosts of the interview >> and we're the hosts of the interview >> and we're the hosts of the interview [music] and audio and video podcast from [music] and audio and video podcast from [music] and audio and video podcast from the New York Times. the New York Times. the New York Times. >> Every week we interview fascinating and >> Every week we interview fascinating and >> Every week we interview fascinating and influential people from all walks influential people from all walks influential people from all walks [music] of life. [music] of life. [music] of life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so you'll never miss an episode.