She’s Been to Gaza. She Met With the Iranians. Now She Has a Warning. | The Interview

I refuse to believe that the core human I refuse to believe that the core human essence is bad. Our motivation is not to essence is bad. Our motivation is not to essence is bad. Our motivation is not to live in rubble. Never. How could it be? live in rubble. Never. How could it be? live in rubble. Never. How could it be? [music] I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and today I'm I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and today I'm interviewing Midiana, interviewing Midiana, interviewing Midiana, the president of the International the president of the International the president of the International Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC Committee of the Red Cross. The ICRC works all around the globe and often in works all around the globe and often in works all around the globe and often in secret, remaining neutral to operate in secret, remaining neutral to operate in secret, remaining neutral to operate in the world's most dangerous environments. the world's most dangerous environments. the world's most dangerous environments. But with wars getting [music] more But with wars getting [music] more But with wars getting [music] more complex due to new technology and world complex due to new technology and world complex due to new technology and world leaders increasingly [music] ignoring leaders increasingly [music] ignoring leaders increasingly [music] ignoring the rules of war, felt compelled to sit the rules of war, felt compelled to sit the rules of war, felt compelled to sit down with me to issue a warning about down with me to issue a warning about down with me to issue a warning about where we all could be headed. We have to where we all could be headed. We have to where we all could be headed. We have to understand the significance and understand the significance and understand the significance and importance of the rules of war [music] importance of the rules of war [music] importance of the rules of war [music] and why they need to be respected. But and why they need to be respected. But and why they need to be respected. But first, a quick message. If you're not a first, a quick message. If you're not a first, a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. subscriber, we have some news for you. subscriber, we have some news for you. You [music] can now explore the Times You [music] can now explore the Times You [music] can now explore the Times for free without pay walls during your for free without pay walls during your for free without pay walls during your first month in the New York Times app. first month in the New York Times app. first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you Just download the app and we hope you Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview.

enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. enjoy it. Okay, on to the interview. Thank you so much for coming in today. I Thank you so much for coming in today. I Thank you so much for coming in today. I really appreciate it. This I know has really appreciate it. This I know has really appreciate it. This I know has been um very hectic. We are meeting just been um very hectic. We are meeting just been um very hectic. We are meeting just at the end of the UN General Assembly. I at the end of the UN General Assembly. I at the end of the UN General Assembly. I want to start um if you could just want to start um if you could just want to start um if you could just briefly tell me uh what is the ICRC and briefly tell me uh what is the ICRC and briefly tell me uh what is the ICRC and what does it do? We are a global what does it do? We are a global what does it do? We are a global organization organization organization founded founded founded 163 years ago in Geneva. 163 years ago in Geneva. 163 years ago in Geneva. today working in roughly 90 different today working in roughly 90 different today working in roughly 90 different places across the world mainly in places across the world mainly in places across the world mainly in conflict because this is what we were conflict because this is what we were conflict because this is what we were created for [snorts] to bring help and created for [snorts] to bring help and created for [snorts] to bring help and protection in situations of armed protection in situations of armed protection in situations of armed conflict but then also promote respect conflict but then also promote respect conflict but then also promote respect for the rules of war because with the for the rules of war because with the for the rules of war because with the creation of the IC came the founding of creation of the IC came the founding of creation of the IC came the founding of the Geneva Convention the Geneva Convention the Geneva Convention and then that led to the four Geneva and then that led to the four Geneva and then that led to the four Geneva Conventions adopted after the second Conventions adopted after the second Conventions adopted after the second world war in 1949 world war in 1949 world war in 1949 and still today this agreement has been and still today this agreement has been and still today this agreement has been ratified by all states because all ratified by all states because all ratified by all states because all states agreed that there are red lines states agreed that there are red lines states agreed that there are red lines in war. There are simply certain things in war. There are simply certain things in war. There are simply certain things that should never be allowed to happen.

that should never be allowed to happen. that should never be allowed to happen. You know I covered wars for a big part You know I covered wars for a big part You know I covered wars for a big part of my career as a journalist and the of my career as a journalist and the of my career as a journalist and the world feels more dangerous and more world feels more dangerous and more world feels more dangerous and more volatile than I can ever remember. How volatile than I can ever remember. How volatile than I can ever remember. How do you see things? [snorts] do you see things? [snorts] do you see things? [snorts] >> I see it the same way because the >> I see it the same way because the >> I see it the same way because the statistics prove it. We now count twice statistics prove it. We now count twice statistics prove it. We now count twice as many conflicts as 15 years ago. We as many conflicts as 15 years ago. We as many conflicts as 15 years ago. We are at are at are at 130 international and non- international 130 international and non- international 130 international and non- international armed conflicts that we classify in our armed conflicts that we classify in our armed conflicts that we classify in our system. That's the highest number since system. That's the highest number since system. That's the highest number since the Second World War. So, I think it's the Second World War. So, I think it's the Second World War. So, I think it's time we stop admiring the problem and time we stop admiring the problem and time we stop admiring the problem and start acting against this. In my own start acting against this. In my own start acting against this. In my own newspaper, there was a recent headline newspaper, there was a recent headline newspaper, there was a recent headline asking if World War II had already asking if World War II had already asking if World War II had already begun. begun. begun. >> And I want to speak more deeply about >> And I want to speak more deeply about >> And I want to speak more deeply about why those fears about a global conflict why those fears about a global conflict why those fears about a global conflict are taking root. But first, you rarely are taking root. But first, you rarely are taking root. But first, you rarely give interviews. The ICRC is quite a give interviews. The ICRC is quite a give interviews. The ICRC is quite a secretive organization because it has to secretive organization because it has to secretive organization because it has to be um because of the sensitivity of what be um because of the sensitivity of what be um because of the sensitivity of what you do.

you do. you do. >> Why are you sitting down now? Because I >> Why are you sitting down now? Because I >> Why are you sitting down now? Because I want more and more people to understand want more and more people to understand want more and more people to understand that we live in a decade of war. And that we live in a decade of war. And that we live in a decade of war. And because we live in a decade of war, we because we live in a decade of war, we because we live in a decade of war, we have to understand the significance and have to understand the significance and have to understand the significance and importance of the rules of war and why importance of the rules of war and why importance of the rules of war and why they need to be respected. they need to be respected. they need to be respected. These treaties were created precisely These treaties were created precisely These treaties were created precisely for times like the ones we live in. for times like the ones we live in. for times like the ones we live in. I need to reach out to people. They need I need to reach out to people. They need I need to reach out to people. They need to understand the importance of this. to understand the importance of this. to understand the importance of this. Why do you think they don't? We hear Why do you think they don't? We hear Why do you think they don't? We hear more and more leaders say that the rules more and more leaders say that the rules more and more leaders say that the rules of four don't apply anymore because of of four don't apply anymore because of of four don't apply anymore because of the pursuit for total victory. But that the pursuit for total victory. But that the pursuit for total victory. But that is not possible in history. There has is not possible in history. There has is not possible in history. There has never been total victory. There has only never been total victory. There has only never been total victory. There has only been death and destruction over and been death and destruction over and been death and destruction over and above what was necessary. Because at the above what was necessary. Because at the above what was necessary. Because at the end of the day, whether there is peace end of the day, whether there is peace end of the day, whether there is peace always remains a political decision, not always remains a political decision, not always remains a political decision, not a military one. Is there such a thing as a military one. Is there such a thing as a military one. Is there such a thing as a necessary war?

a necessary war? a necessary war? As far as I'm concerned, no. But you As far as I'm concerned, no. But you As far as I'm concerned, no. But you know, philosophers and politicians have know, philosophers and politicians have know, philosophers and politicians have argued for thousands of years that war argued for thousands of years that war argued for thousands of years that war is necessary. is necessary. is necessary. But the point is war has always been But the point is war has always been But the point is war has always been considered as something in the pursuit considered as something in the pursuit considered as something in the pursuit of a political objective. You know, it's of a political objective. You know, it's of a political objective. You know, it's a means to an end. Today you get the a means to an end. Today you get the a means to an end. Today you get the feeling that feeling that feeling that you know the wars become the means to an you know the wars become the means to an you know the wars become the means to an end itself and they continue because end itself and they continue because end itself and they continue because people want to stay in power because people want to stay in power because people want to stay in power because they have created an environment where they have created an environment where they have created an environment where you know the war becomes the condition you know the war becomes the condition you know the war becomes the condition under which they can continue ruling and under which they can continue ruling and under which they can continue ruling and that's that's very dangerous and you ask that's that's very dangerous and you ask that's that's very dangerous and you ask me whether we are approaching a third me whether we are approaching a third me whether we are approaching a third world war honestly History will judge world war honestly History will judge world war honestly History will judge that. History books will tell us whether that. History books will tell us whether that. History books will tell us whether today we already were today we already were today we already were in the beginning or maybe already in the in the beginning or maybe already in the in the beginning or maybe already in the middle of such a situation. We didn't middle of such a situation. We didn't middle of such a situation. We didn't know as the IC that we were in the know as the IC that we were in the know as the IC that we were in the second world war when that was second world war when that was second world war when that was happening. The awareness of this being happening. The awareness of this being happening. The awareness of this being one of the most brutal wars in human one of the most brutal wars in human one of the most brutal wars in human history that awareness wasn't there at history that awareness wasn't there at history that awareness wasn't there at that time. You are one of the few people that time. You are one of the few people that time. You are one of the few people in the world who regularly travels to in the world who regularly travels to in the world who regularly travels to both sides of armed conflicts.

both sides of armed conflicts. both sides of armed conflicts. Can you tell me where you've been since Can you tell me where you've been since Can you tell me where you've been since you took over as the head of the ICRC in you took over as the head of the ICRC in you took over as the head of the ICRC in 2022? 2022? 2022? I've been to Gaza more than once during I've been to Gaza more than once during I've been to Gaza more than once during military operations. military operations. military operations. My organization facilitated the release My organization facilitated the release My organization facilitated the release and the return of the hostages from Gaza and the return of the hostages from Gaza and the return of the hostages from Gaza and the Palestinians, and the Palestinians, and the Palestinians, the Palestinian detainees back to Gaza. the Palestinian detainees back to Gaza. the Palestinian detainees back to Gaza. I was in Ukraine. I was in Myanmar. I was in Ukraine. I was in Myanmar. I was in Ukraine. I was in Myanmar. I was recently in Iran, in Iraq. I was recently in Iran, in Iraq. I was recently in Iran, in Iraq. I travel to the Middle East often, but I I travel to the Middle East often, but I I travel to the Middle East often, but I also travel to Africa. I was in Sudan. I also travel to Africa. I was in Sudan. I also travel to Africa. I was in Sudan. I was in Mali. I have to go and see for was in Mali. I have to go and see for was in Mali. I have to go and see for myself what it looks like. I need to myself what it looks like. I need to myself what it looks like. I need to understand understand understand [clears throat] what civilians endure in [clears throat] what civilians endure in [clears throat] what civilians endure in conflict because I'm I'm speaking to the conflict because I'm I'm speaking to the conflict because I'm I'm speaking to the holders of power. I wouldn't be credible holders of power. I wouldn't be credible holders of power. I wouldn't be credible if I didn't know what it is, what it if I didn't know what it is, what it if I didn't know what it is, what it means to be subject to this level of means to be subject to this level of means to be subject to this level of violence.

violence. violence. I want to start with Gaza. Your I want to start with Gaza. Your I want to start with Gaza. Your organization is one of the few organization is one of the few organization is one of the few organizations that has been allowed organizations that has been allowed organizations that has been allowed inside and continues to work in Gaza. inside and continues to work in Gaza. inside and continues to work in Gaza. You know, international journalists, You know, international journalists, You know, international journalists, most other international organizations most other international organizations most other international organizations haven't been given access by uh the haven't been given access by uh the haven't been given access by uh the Israeli government. Can you describe Israeli government. Can you describe Israeli government. Can you describe what you have seen? what you have seen? what you have seen? >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> [sighs and gasps] >> I never go to any place of conflict >> I never go to any place of conflict >> I never go to any place of conflict without people telling me that they want without people telling me that they want without people telling me that they want to stop, to stop, to stop, without people telling me that they without people telling me that they without people telling me that they don't understand why this is happening. don't understand why this is happening. don't understand why this is happening. >> I see children without parents. I I see >> I see children without parents. I I see >> I see children without parents. I I see children without arms and legs. I mean, children without arms and legs. I mean, children without arms and legs. I mean, how senseless does the world feel to you how senseless does the world feel to you how senseless does the world feel to you when you're confronting these things? when you're confronting these things? when you're confronting these things? And when you then go to the powerh And when you then go to the powerh And when you then go to the powerh holders and they tell you that there's holders and they tell you that there's holders and they tell you that there's nothing that they can do, you you just nothing that they can do, you you just nothing that they can do, you you just don't understand. How is it that I see don't understand. How is it that I see don't understand. How is it that I see these children without parents, without these children without parents, without these children without parents, without limbs, limbs, limbs, and people who have power and influence and people who have power and influence and people who have power and influence still tell me there's nothing we can do.

still tell me there's nothing we can do. still tell me there's nothing we can do. I don't understand it. I often don't I don't understand it. I often don't I don't understand it. I often don't understand understand understand what I see in connection to what I hear. what I see in connection to what I hear. what I see in connection to what I hear. Millions of Palestinians who live in Millions of Palestinians who live in Millions of Palestinians who live in Gaza uh are now forced to live on only Gaza uh are now forced to live on only Gaza uh are now forced to live on only around 30% of the territory. Over 80% of around 30% of the territory. Over 80% of around 30% of the territory. Over 80% of the buildings in Gaza have been the buildings in Gaza have been the buildings in Gaza have been destroyed or damaged. And in a 2025 destroyed or damaged. And in a 2025 destroyed or damaged. And in a 2025 interview with the BBC during the active interview with the BBC during the active interview with the BBC during the active conflict, you called Gaza worse than conflict, you called Gaza worse than conflict, you called Gaza worse than hell on earth and you described a people hell on earth and you described a people hell on earth and you described a people stripped of their human dignity. Have stripped of their human dignity. Have stripped of their human dignity. Have the rules of war been followed there? the rules of war been followed there? the rules of war been followed there? [snorts] What I said about Gaza What I said about Gaza is still valid today. What happened is still valid today. What happened is still valid today. What happened to Gaza and in Gaza to Gaza and in Gaza to Gaza and in Gaza to Palestinians and Israelis supersedes to Palestinians and Israelis supersedes to Palestinians and Israelis supersedes every legal, moral, and humane every legal, moral, and humane every legal, moral, and humane standards. standards. standards. You know, there's so many people You know, there's so many people You know, there's so many people complicit complicit complicit in what what happened there and in what what happened there and in what what happened there and continues to happen. [clears throat] continues to happen. [clears throat] continues to happen. [clears throat] The worst now is the fact that people The worst now is the fact that people The worst now is the fact that people are deprived of human dignity. The are deprived of human dignity. The are deprived of human dignity. The perception created that if there's perception created that if there's perception created that if there's enough food, that's that's good enough.

enough food, that's that's good enough. enough food, that's that's good enough. For [snorts] some people, it's good For [snorts] some people, it's good For [snorts] some people, it's good enough to just barely survive in rubble. enough to just barely survive in rubble. enough to just barely survive in rubble. And for other people, it's only good And for other people, it's only good And for other people, it's only good enough if they can return to normaly and enough if they can return to normaly and enough if they can return to normaly and bring their children back to a normal bring their children back to a normal bring their children back to a normal school. school. school. It's applying two standards and this It's applying two standards and this It's applying two standards and this will backfire. will backfire. will backfire. We cannot assume that for certain people We cannot assume that for certain people We cannot assume that for certain people certain things certain things certain things are sufficient for a situation when it are sufficient for a situation when it are sufficient for a situation when it doesn't apply to everybody else. doesn't apply to everybody else. doesn't apply to everybody else. You can see that by how we measure You can see that by how we measure You can see that by how we measure humanitarian needs in Europe in humanitarian needs in Europe in humanitarian needs in Europe in comparison to South Sudan comparison to South Sudan comparison to South Sudan [clears throat] or Somalia [clears throat] or Somalia [clears throat] or Somalia intuitively and because we can't prevent intuitively and because we can't prevent intuitively and because we can't prevent it. We we continue applying two it. We we continue applying two it. We we continue applying two standards and that some human lives are standards and that some human lives are standards and that some human lives are more valuable than others. more valuable than others. more valuable than others. >> Yeah. And I always fear that if you >> Yeah. And I always fear that if you >> Yeah. And I always fear that if you allow double standards, it can happen to allow double standards, it can happen to allow double standards, it can happen to you. you. you. You never know when you find yourself You never know when you find yourself You never know when you find yourself all of a sudden on on on the other side all of a sudden on on on the other side all of a sudden on on on the other side of the line. And it happened in the of the line. And it happened in the of the line. And it happened in the Second World War to the Jewish people, Second World War to the Jewish people, Second World War to the Jewish people, but it happened to a lot more people but it happened to a lot more people but it happened to a lot more people than we nowadays keep in mind.

than we nowadays keep in mind. than we nowadays keep in mind. I want to stay with Gaza for one more I want to stay with Gaza for one more I want to stay with Gaza for one more moment before we broaden out. moment before we broaden out. moment before we broaden out. Did the ICRC have access to the hostages Did the ICRC have access to the hostages Did the ICRC have access to the hostages while they were in captivity? because while they were in captivity? because while they were in captivity? because they were there were horrific stories of they were there were horrific stories of they were there were horrific stories of of their conditions in captivity and of their conditions in captivity and of their conditions in captivity and obviously that is one of your main roles obviously that is one of your main roles obviously that is one of your main roles is to make sure that you know detainees is to make sure that you know detainees is to make sure that you know detainees prisoners are treated well. prisoners are treated well. prisoners are treated well. Visiting hostages is much more Visiting hostages is much more Visiting hostages is much more complicated than bringing them back. And complicated than bringing them back. And complicated than bringing them back. And in my opinion they should have come back in my opinion they should have come back in my opinion they should have come back unconditionally unconditionally unconditionally as of day one. But that's not the as of day one. But that's not the as of day one. But that's not the reality in which we operate. And so we reality in which we operate. And so we reality in which we operate. And so we have to work with the tools that we have to work with the tools that we have to work with the tools that we have. You know, there's nothing more have. You know, there's nothing more have. You know, there's nothing more complicated, more complex and to a complicated, more complex and to a complicated, more complex and to a certain extent also more brutal certain extent also more brutal certain extent also more brutal than hostage taking. Um, we know that than hostage taking. Um, we know that than hostage taking. Um, we know that also because our own colleagues find also because our own colleagues find also because our own colleagues find themselves more often than they should themselves more often than they should themselves more often than they should in in in such situations and we know how in in in such situations and we know how in in in such situations and we know how important is it it is to negotiate them important is it it is to negotiate them important is it it is to negotiate them out as quickly as possible. So the out as quickly as possible. So the out as quickly as possible. So the objective always has to be to bring the objective always has to be to bring the objective always has to be to bring the hostages back and it the longer it takes hostages back and it the longer it takes hostages back and it the longer it takes the more complicated it becomes.

the more complicated it becomes. the more complicated it becomes. I personally think that I personally think that I personally think that you know pressure should have come you know pressure should have come you know pressure should have come earlier on the negotiations. We could earlier on the negotiations. We could earlier on the negotiations. We could have saved more lives, many more lives. have saved more lives, many more lives. have saved more lives, many more lives. And this is this was the subject of our And this is this was the subject of our And this is this was the subject of our conversations. I traveled twice to Qatar conversations. I traveled twice to Qatar conversations. I traveled twice to Qatar to meet with the leadership of Hamas to meet with the leadership of Hamas to meet with the leadership of Hamas [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] to sit with Isma Hane at the time. I I to sit with Isma Hane at the time. I I to sit with Isma Hane at the time. I I sat with Prime Minister Netanyahu sat with Prime Minister Netanyahu sat with Prime Minister Netanyahu myself. These were tough discussions and myself. These were tough discussions and myself. These were tough discussions and and trust me we we are very frank in and trust me we we are very frank in and trust me we we are very frank in these meetings and this is why these these meetings and this is why these these meetings and this is why these meetings have to always remain meetings have to always remain meetings have to always remain confidential. confidential. confidential. You know I'm I'm also thinking of You know I'm I'm also thinking of You know I'm I'm also thinking of Israel and how it has not allowed you Israel and how it has not allowed you Israel and how it has not allowed you access to the detainees inside access to the detainees inside access to the detainees inside of Israel. I mean, how have they of Israel. I mean, how have they of Israel. I mean, how have they explained that to you and and how do you explained that to you and and how do you explained that to you and and how do you then have to respond?

then have to respond? then have to respond? It's true that prior to October 7, uh, It's true that prior to October 7, uh, It's true that prior to October 7, uh, the IC has had access the IC has had access the IC has had access for decades to detine um, held by Israel for decades to detine um, held by Israel for decades to detine um, held by Israel and we, you know, organized tens of and we, you know, organized tens of and we, you know, organized tens of thousands, if not more family visits and thousands, if not more family visits and thousands, if not more family visits and that's important. Access to prisons in that's important. Access to prisons in that's important. Access to prisons in situations of war is extremely situations of war is extremely situations of war is extremely challenging and complicated to achieve. challenging and complicated to achieve. challenging and complicated to achieve. And at a certain point in in in And at a certain point in in in And at a certain point in in in the conflict, parties decide that for the conflict, parties decide that for the conflict, parties decide that for security reasons they don't want to give security reasons they don't want to give security reasons they don't want to give us access. us access. us access. It's the most common argument. There may It's the most common argument. There may It's the most common argument. There may be others, but that's the most common be others, but that's the most common be others, but that's the most common one. [snorts] But it doesn't matter what one. [snorts] But it doesn't matter what one. [snorts] But it doesn't matter what what the reason is. It's a sovereign what the reason is. It's a sovereign what the reason is. It's a sovereign decision by the state to prevent us. decision by the state to prevent us. decision by the state to prevent us. >> However, according to the Geneva >> However, according to the Geneva >> However, according to the Geneva Conventions, which all these states have Conventions, which all these states have Conventions, which all these states have ratified, they have a legal obligation ratified, they have a legal obligation ratified, they have a legal obligation to give us access and in my opinion also to give us access and in my opinion also to give us access and in my opinion also a moral obligation a moral obligation a moral obligation because we need to inform the families because we need to inform the families because we need to inform the families about the whereabouts of or the fate of about the whereabouts of or the fate of about the whereabouts of or the fate of their relatives. You know, you capture a their relatives. You know, you capture a their relatives. You know, you capture a soldier in this person is detained, but soldier in this person is detained, but soldier in this person is detained, but a soldier is not per se a criminal.

a soldier is not per se a criminal. a soldier is not per se a criminal. And no matter how you classify And no matter how you classify And no matter how you classify these situations, torture is never these situations, torture is never these situations, torture is never allowed, never allowed, never allowed, never for any party to the Geneva Conventions. for any party to the Geneva Conventions. for any party to the Geneva Conventions. That is clear and this is what we That is clear and this is what we That is clear and this is what we discuss with those who don't give us discuss with those who don't give us discuss with those who don't give us access. access. access. But you know detention has a different But you know detention has a different But you know detention has a different reason for me reason for me reason for me to to be able to go irrespective of my to to be able to go irrespective of my to to be able to go irrespective of my legal mandate. Detention is the place where you lose Detention is the place where you lose your identity. your identity. your identity. Detention is when there's no possibility Detention is when there's no possibility Detention is when there's no possibility to notify the families and to receive to notify the families and to receive to notify the families and to receive information about them. Detention information about them. Detention information about them. Detention becomes the place of utmost deprivation of yourself. And utmost deprivation of yourself. And we've seen more often than not that we've seen more often than not that we've seen more often than not that people detained under hor horrible people detained under hor horrible people detained under hor horrible conditions over extended periods of time conditions over extended periods of time conditions over extended periods of time forget who they are.

forget who they are. forget who they are. And when I visited recently a detention And when I visited recently a detention And when I visited recently a detention facility in Iraq, facility in Iraq, facility in Iraq, the detainees told me our biggest the detainees told me our biggest the detainees told me our biggest challenge is information. challenge is information. challenge is information. You know, they're very content if the You know, they're very content if the You know, they're very content if the food situation improves and if if they food situation improves and if if they food situation improves and if if they have more access to sanitary [snorts] have more access to sanitary [snorts] have more access to sanitary [snorts] um facilities, all these things are um facilities, all these things are um facilities, all these things are important to them. But what is most important to them. But what is most important to them. But what is most important for everyone always is to have important for everyone always is to have important for everyone always is to have information about what month it is, what information about what month it is, what information about what month it is, what day it is, where the family are, day it is, where the family are, day it is, where the family are, families are, where the children are, families are, where the children are, families are, where the children are, whether the children are safe. You're whether the children are safe. You're whether the children are safe. You're talking to human beings. talking to human beings. talking to human beings. This is a bit of a basic question. Why This is a bit of a basic question. Why This is a bit of a basic question. Why does it matter how you treat your enemy? does it matter how you treat your enemy? does it matter how you treat your enemy? Of course it matters because you're Of course it matters because you're Of course it matters because you're dehumanizing yourself if you torture. dehumanizing yourself if you torture. dehumanizing yourself if you torture. If you tell your soldiers, "Go and kill If you tell your soldiers, "Go and kill If you tell your soldiers, "Go and kill women and children. Go rape them. women and children. Go rape them. women and children. Go rape them. Looting is allowed. It's our strategy in Looting is allowed. It's our strategy in Looting is allowed. It's our strategy in warfare. These people dehumanize warfare. These people dehumanize warfare. These people dehumanize themselves. They will never be able to themselves. They will never be able to themselves. They will never be able to return to a normal life." I listen to so return to a normal life." I listen to so return to a normal life." I listen to so many interviews of former soldiers many interviews of former soldiers many interviews of former soldiers because I need to understand them as because I need to understand them as because I need to understand them as well.

well. well. All of them always say that what haunts All of them always say that what haunts All of them always say that what haunts them is this child that was left in the them is this child that was left in the them is this child that was left in the street because they weren't allowed to street because they weren't allowed to street because they weren't allowed to turn around and collect it turn around and collect it turn around and collect it that they saw bleeding to death. that they saw bleeding to death. that they saw bleeding to death. It remains with you. You debase It remains with you. You debase It remains with you. You debase yourself. This is why soldiers normally yourself. This is why soldiers normally yourself. This is why soldiers normally when they return also have all these when they return also have all these when they return also have all these problems. problems. problems. I I refuse to believe that the core I I refuse to believe that the core I I refuse to believe that the core human essence is bad. We are good human essence is bad. We are good human essence is bad. We are good people. We want to live with people we people. We want to live with people we people. We want to live with people we love. We want to have children that love. We want to have children that love. We want to have children that thrive. We want to be able to build a thrive. We want to be able to build a thrive. We want to be able to build a house and know that our, you know, house and know that our, you know, house and know that our, you know, grandchildren will be better off than grandchildren will be better off than grandchildren will be better off than us. This is a very normal human us. This is a very normal human us. This is a very normal human motivation to continue living. motivation to continue living. motivation to continue living. Our motivation is not to live in rubble. Our motivation is not to live in rubble. Our motivation is not to live in rubble. Never. How could it be? Never. How could it be? Never. How could it be? I want to just take a pause here because I want to just take a pause here because I want to just take a pause here because I want to learn a little bit more about I want to learn a little bit more about I want to learn a little bit more about you. You are Swiss Croatian. You studied you. You are Swiss Croatian. You studied you. You are Swiss Croatian. You studied philosophy. Um, you worked primarily in philosophy. Um, you worked primarily in philosophy. Um, you worked primarily in international development and international development and international development and peacemaking for most of your career, peacemaking for most of your career, peacemaking for most of your career, including for the Swiss Foreign Service, including for the Swiss Foreign Service, including for the Swiss Foreign Service, the United Nations.

I'm curious why you wanted to take on a I'm curious why you wanted to take on a job about war. I mean, do you have job about war. I mean, do you have job about war. I mean, do you have memories of the war in Croatia? memories of the war in Croatia? memories of the war in Croatia? My my [clears throat] first memory of My my [clears throat] first memory of My my [clears throat] first memory of war was what my great-grandmother, her war was what my great-grandmother, her war was what my great-grandmother, her brothers, my father, brothers, my father, brothers, my father, everybody told me at the time about the everybody told me at the time about the everybody told me at the time about the Second World War and how how they Second World War and how how they Second World War and how how they endured it. You know, my father was born endured it. You know, my father was born endured it. You know, my father was born in the middle and my father said he had in the middle and my father said he had in the middle and my father said he had to when he was 5 years old, he had to to when he was 5 years old, he had to to when he was 5 years old, he had to work in the field work in the field work in the field for 12 hours in the sun for a glass of for 12 hours in the sun for a glass of for 12 hours in the sun for a glass of milk. at the time is that this whole milk. at the time is that this whole milk. at the time is that this whole childhood was marked by the memory of childhood was marked by the memory of childhood was marked by the memory of being hungry. being hungry. being hungry. And my mother, [snorts] she was equally, And my mother, [snorts] she was equally, And my mother, [snorts] she was equally, you know, traumatized to the point where you know, traumatized to the point where you know, traumatized to the point where she said every time a child died of a she said every time a child died of a she said every time a child died of a disease in her neighborhood, she thought disease in her neighborhood, she thought disease in her neighborhood, she thought that the parents were lucky and happy that the parents were lucky and happy that the parents were lucky and happy probably because there was one less probably because there was one less probably because there was one less child to feed child to feed child to feed >> and so they felt relieved. Can you >> and so they felt relieved. Can you >> and so they felt relieved. Can you imagine thinking as a little girl that imagine thinking as a little girl that imagine thinking as a little girl that somebody's happy about losing a child somebody's happy about losing a child somebody's happy about losing a child because you don't have enough food for because you don't have enough food for because you don't have enough food for everyone?

everyone? everyone? This is these are the stories that This is these are the stories that This is these are the stories that marked me probably more profoundly than marked me probably more profoundly than marked me probably more profoundly than anything else. anything else. anything else. And then came the Yugoslavia war. You And then came the Yugoslavia war. You And then came the Yugoslavia war. You know, my direct exposure to to the know, my direct exposure to to the know, my direct exposure to to the impact of conflict. But I cannot imagine impact of conflict. But I cannot imagine impact of conflict. But I cannot imagine how anybody could say we need this war how anybody could say we need this war how anybody could say we need this war because you you always forget that there because you you always forget that there because you you always forget that there are people in this war that suffer. are people in this war that suffer. are people in this war that suffer. And if you keep the people in mind, And if you keep the people in mind, And if you keep the people in mind, you will always favor a political you will always favor a political you will always favor a political solution. I'm not naive, you know. I I'm solution. I'm not naive, you know. I I'm solution. I'm not naive, you know. I I'm surrounded by, you know, by surrounded by, you know, by surrounded by, you know, by by harsh interlocutors in a harsh by harsh interlocutors in a harsh by harsh interlocutors in a harsh environment. I environment. I environment. I but still I think if you keep the people but still I think if you keep the people but still I think if you keep the people in mind if you if you at all times in mind if you if you at all times in mind if you if you at all times remember that it could happen to you it remember that it could happen to you it remember that it could happen to you it could happen to your children you will could happen to your children you will could happen to your children you will think twice before you start the war you think twice before you start the war you think twice before you start the war you are the first woman to be president of are the first woman to be president of are the first woman to be president of the ICRC the ICRC the ICRC I mean do you think gender matters and I mean do you think gender matters and I mean do you think gender matters and how you're dealing with conflict how you're dealing with conflict how you're dealing with conflict you know I often say this when I came you know I often say this when I came you know I often say this when I came into office into office into office everybody was asking about everybody was asking about everybody was asking about how is it uh being the the first woman how is it uh being the the first woman how is it uh being the the first woman president of the IC after 160 years of president of the IC after 160 years of president of the IC after 160 years of male dominance and it's not only at the male dominance and it's not only at the male dominance and it's not only at the top I mean it's across the institution top I mean it's across the institution top I mean it's across the institution because it's an it's an organization because it's an it's an organization because it's an it's an organization that was created in

that was created in that was created in war for wars war for wars war for wars and then I went to Mali to northern Mali and then I went to Mali to northern Mali and then I went to Mali to northern Mali and they sat with the women and they sat with the women and they sat with the women and for the first time in IC CSSE and for the first time in IC CSSE and for the first time in IC CSSE president could sit with the women in president could sit with the women in president could sit with the women in the tent because you know social norms the tent because you know social norms the tent because you know social norms prevented prevented prevented my predecessors from doing the same. my predecessors from doing the same. my predecessors from doing the same. [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] And I felt so shaken throughout the And I felt so shaken throughout the And I felt so shaken throughout the night when I realized what is happening night when I realized what is happening night when I realized what is happening to women in in in conflict and how to women in in in conflict and how to women in in in conflict and how brutal it is. You know, because you have brutal it is. You know, because you have brutal it is. You know, because you have an overlap of many things affecting an overlap of many things affecting an overlap of many things affecting women and, you know, just depriving them women and, you know, just depriving them women and, you know, just depriving them of of even the minimum protection that of of even the minimum protection that of of even the minimum protection that that that any any human being should that that any any human being should that that any any human being should have at all times. And that that that night I realized it And that that that night I realized it is a a difference when it's a woman, you is a a difference when it's a woman, you is a a difference when it's a woman, you know, because if there would never be a know, because if there would never be a know, because if there would never be a woman at the head of these woman at the head of these woman at the head of these organizations, we wouldn't be as organizations, we wouldn't be as organizations, we wouldn't be as conscious conscious conscious of what it means for 50% of the world's of what it means for 50% of the world's of what it means for 50% of the world's population.

population. population. You've seen many horrible things as part You've seen many horrible things as part You've seen many horrible things as part of your job. You deal, as you said, in a of your job. You deal, as you said, in a of your job. You deal, as you said, in a very harsh environment, probably the very harsh environment, probably the very harsh environment, probably the harshest. harshest. harshest. >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> [snorts] >> How do you protect yourself from the >> How do you protect yourself from the >> How do you protect yourself from the relentlessness awfulness? I mean, I've relentlessness awfulness? I mean, I've relentlessness awfulness? I mean, I've seen you get, seen you get, seen you get, if I may say, a little emotional if I may say, a little emotional if I may say, a little emotional thinking about it. Look, um, thinking about it. Look, um, thinking about it. Look, um, [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] in in German, we say I I was built close in in German, we say I I was built close in in German, we say I I was built close to water. Can you say that? I'm very to water. Can you say that? I'm very to water. Can you say that? I'm very emotional. emotional. emotional. >> Mhm. I try to be hard, but uh it it >> Mhm. I try to be hard, but uh it it >> Mhm. I try to be hard, but uh it it doesn't work. Um, doesn't work. Um, doesn't work. Um, and maybe it's good that I'm emotional. and maybe it's good that I'm emotional. and maybe it's good that I'm emotional. Maybe it's good that I get angry at when Maybe it's good that I get angry at when Maybe it's good that I get angry at when I see bad things or unjust things I see bad things or unjust things I see bad things or unjust things because it keeps me going, you know, it because it keeps me going, you know, it because it keeps me going, you know, it keeps that feeling alive that you have keeps that feeling alive that you have keeps that feeling alive that you have to do something. You can't just admire to do something. You can't just admire to do something. You can't just admire the problem. You there's something I the problem. You there's something I the problem. You there's something I that you have to be able to do. And I've that you have to be able to do. And I've that you have to be able to do. And I've always had that feeling. I remember when always had that feeling. I remember when always had that feeling. I remember when I was a child, I wanted to save all the I was a child, I wanted to save all the I was a child, I wanted to save all the sea turtles sea turtles sea turtles because I watched this documentary about because I watched this documentary about because I watched this documentary about how they're being tortured, you know, how they're being tortured, you know, how they're being tortured, you know, when when when they're being caught and when when when they're being caught and when when when they're being caught and how they are being killed, you know, how they are being killed, you know, how they are being killed, you know, getting to the meat and how much getting to the meat and how much getting to the meat and how much suffering that that entails. I I said to suffering that that entails. I I said to suffering that that entails. I I said to my parents, I want to become a my parents, I want to become a my parents, I want to become a veterinarian. I need to save the veterinarian. I need to save the veterinarian. I need to save the turtles.

turtles. turtles. And I think I would have I probably And I think I would have I probably And I think I would have I probably would have started a global movement for would have started a global movement for would have started a global movement for the sea turtles, but then so many other the sea turtles, but then so many other the sea turtles, but then so many other things happened in between. And I I now things happened in between. And I I now things happened in between. And I I now do it I tried at least to save human do it I tried at least to save human do it I tried at least to save human lives. lives. lives. You know, as as I was thinking about the You know, as as I was thinking about the You know, as as I was thinking about the ICRC and the difficulty in this era of ICRC and the difficulty in this era of ICRC and the difficulty in this era of staying neutral, right? this idea of staying neutral, right? this idea of staying neutral, right? this idea of neutrality and this idea of coming in neutrality and this idea of coming in neutrality and this idea of coming in and having to speak to both sides and and having to speak to both sides and and having to speak to both sides and not taking sides. not taking sides. not taking sides. Um, it really made me wonder about Um, it really made me wonder about Um, it really made me wonder about the challenges of that in this the challenges of that in this the challenges of that in this environment. There have been many environment. There have been many environment. There have been many accusations that the ICRC accusations that the ICRC accusations that the ICRC hides behind its neutrality, you know, hides behind its neutrality, you know, hides behind its neutrality, you know, to mask inaction. You know, the to mask inaction. You know, the to mask inaction. You know, the Holocaust is is a moment where the ICRC Holocaust is is a moment where the ICRC Holocaust is is a moment where the ICRC failed catastrophically failed catastrophically failed catastrophically to prevent or at least to even to prevent or at least to even to prevent or at least to even acknowledge the extermination of the acknowledge the extermination of the acknowledge the extermination of the Jews. I know your background is in Jews. I know your background is in Jews. I know your background is in philosophy and I know you philosophy and I know you philosophy and I know you [snorts] feel all this very deeply and [snorts] feel all this very deeply and [snorts] feel all this very deeply and I'm wondering what does it mean to be I'm wondering what does it mean to be I'm wondering what does it mean to be neutral in the face of extreme neutral in the face of extreme neutral in the face of extreme suffering? I mean is there suffering? I mean is there suffering? I mean is there an inherent tension in that when I when I you know started my studies

you know started my studies you know started my studies I I had my thoughts and I you know I I I I had my thoughts and I you know I I I I had my thoughts and I you know I I could also get impatient with the could also get impatient with the could also get impatient with the stubborn stubborn stubborn insistence on neutrality and insistence on neutrality and insistence on neutrality and confidentiality. confidentiality. confidentiality. I very very quickly changed my mind when I very very quickly changed my mind when I very very quickly changed my mind when I became president myself. Having I became president myself. Having I became president myself. Having accepted accepted accepted this unique opportunity, I this unique opportunity, I this unique opportunity, I had to learn quickly and then also had had to learn quickly and then also had had to learn quickly and then also had to acknowledge that we wouldn't be able to acknowledge that we wouldn't be able to acknowledge that we wouldn't be able to do what we do without this strict to do what we do without this strict to do what we do without this strict insistence on neutrality. um not in the insistence on neutrality. um not in the insistence on neutrality. um not in the context of prisoners of war in Russia context of prisoners of war in Russia context of prisoners of war in Russia and in Ukraine but definitely definitely and in Ukraine but definitely definitely and in Ukraine but definitely definitely we wouldn't have been able to bring back we wouldn't have been able to bring back we wouldn't have been able to bring back the hostages from Gaza. I mean, you see the hostages from Gaza. I mean, you see the hostages from Gaza. I mean, you see the pictures, you see our colleagues the pictures, you see our colleagues the pictures, you see our colleagues unarmed unarmed unarmed amongst, you know, thousands, if not amongst, you know, thousands, if not amongst, you know, thousands, if not tens of thousands of armed tens of thousands of armed tens of thousands of armed [clears throat] [clears throat] [clears throat] men and in a in a [clears throat] in a men and in a in a [clears throat] in a men and in a in a [clears throat] in a situation surrounded by rubble that, you situation surrounded by rubble that, you situation surrounded by rubble that, you know, from which there was no escape. We know, from which there was no escape. We know, from which there was no escape. We had to negotiate the terms with had to negotiate the terms with had to negotiate the terms with everyone. Nobody would have trusted us everyone. Nobody would have trusted us everyone. Nobody would have trusted us to be able to do this. highly complex to be able to do this. highly complex to be able to do this. highly complex operation operation operation if we hadn't defended our neutrality if we hadn't defended our neutrality if we hadn't defended our neutrality over 160 years because we are over 160 years because we are over 160 years because we are predictable in it. You you tweak it predictable in it. You you tweak it predictable in it. You you tweak it once, you become political and that's once, you become political and that's once, you become political and that's it. I know it makes so many people

it. I know it makes so many people it. I know it makes so many people angry, angry, angry, but that's the essence but that's the essence but that's the essence of our mission. of our mission. of our mission. In that context, I want to also ask you In that context, I want to also ask you In that context, I want to also ask you about Iran. um because you noted that about Iran. um because you noted that about Iran. um because you noted that you have also spoken with the Iranians you have also spoken with the Iranians you have also spoken with the Iranians um about the negotiations and about the um about the negotiations and about the um about the negotiations and about the situation there. situation there. situation there. I understand your role as a neutral I understand your role as a neutral I understand your role as a neutral party. I understand that you cannot party. I understand that you cannot party. I understand that you cannot divulge the nature of those discussions. divulge the nature of those discussions. divulge the nature of those discussions. But I am wondering how much you can say But I am wondering how much you can say But I am wondering how much you can say about what you've seen there and how about what you've seen there and how about what you've seen there and how this conflict may or may not be this conflict may or may not be this conflict may or may not be resolved. It became very clear to me and I It became very clear to me and I followed at the time followed at the time followed at the time the nuclear talks in 2013 between 2013 the nuclear talks in 2013 between 2013 the nuclear talks in 2013 between 2013 and and 15 and and 15 and and 15 >> between former President Obama and >> between former President Obama and >> between former President Obama and under President Obama. under President Obama. under President Obama. >> It became clear to me at the time how >> It became clear to me at the time how >> It became clear to me at the time how complex these negotiations were.

complex these negotiations were. complex these negotiations were. It's much more complicated today in It's much more complicated today in It's much more complicated today in comparison. comparison. comparison. The first challenge to establish is The first challenge to establish is The first challenge to establish is the trust. the trust. the trust. We have in the meantime created a world We have in the meantime created a world We have in the meantime created a world where war is not where war is not where war is not a means of last resort. a means of last resort. a means of last resort. It happens at any moment in a process It happens at any moment in a process It happens at any moment in a process which leads to a situation where parties which leads to a situation where parties which leads to a situation where parties always keep that possibility in mind and always keep that possibility in mind and always keep that possibility in mind and always keep a high readiness and always keep a high readiness and always keep a high readiness and preparedness to return to conflict. preparedness to return to conflict. preparedness to return to conflict. That in itself is not helpful because That in itself is not helpful because That in itself is not helpful because you know that these negotiations will you know that these negotiations will you know that these negotiations will take a long time will require a lot of take a long time will require a lot of take a long time will require a lot of compromise. compromise. compromise. But on top of this we have created the But on top of this we have created the But on top of this we have created the situation that is [clears throat] much situation that is [clears throat] much situation that is [clears throat] much much more complex because of the much more complex because of the much more complex because of the overlapping of conflicts and challenges. overlapping of conflicts and challenges. overlapping of conflicts and challenges. Today's conflicts are not limited to a Today's conflicts are not limited to a Today's conflicts are not limited to a given situation. They are turning into given situation. They are turning into given situation. They are turning into systems. You know systems. You know systems. You know >> explain what you mean exactly.

>> explain what you mean exactly. >> explain what you mean exactly. >> Look you have countries aligning over >> Look you have countries aligning over >> Look you have countries aligning over continents as states. you have shifts in continents as states. you have shifts in continents as states. you have shifts in military cooperation, you have shifts in military cooperation, you have shifts in military cooperation, you have shifts in interests and economic goals. So interests and economic goals. So interests and economic goals. So speaking of Iran, so Iran's relationship speaking of Iran, so Iran's relationship speaking of Iran, so Iran's relationship with Russia, Russia's relationship with with Russia, Russia's relationship with with Russia, Russia's relationship with China, um the conflict um spreading to China, um the conflict um spreading to China, um the conflict um spreading to Saudi Arabia and Yemen, um with the Saudi Arabia and Yemen, um with the Saudi Arabia and Yemen, um with the Houthies, and then you have the Houthies, and then you have the Houthies, and then you have the non-state armed groups that are non-state armed groups that are non-state armed groups that are connected with other non-state armed connected with other non-state armed connected with other non-state armed groups in the Horn of Africa, and you groups in the Horn of Africa, and you groups in the Horn of Africa, and you can follow these streams through the can follow these streams through the can follow these streams through the um um um as far as Western African countries, as far as Western African countries, as far as Western African countries, >> you know, certain groups, ideological >> you know, certain groups, ideological >> you know, certain groups, ideological groups or radicalized groups, uh, groups or radicalized groups, uh, groups or radicalized groups, uh, however you want to name them. They however you want to name them. They however you want to name them. They share ideologies, they they share common share ideologies, they they share common share ideologies, they they share common objectives, they align, they realign, objectives, they align, they realign, objectives, they align, they realign, they trade their arms, they ensure um they trade their arms, they ensure um they trade their arms, they ensure um the availability of technology and cheap the availability of technology and cheap the availability of technology and cheap weapons across across weapons across across weapons across across many many countries and thousands of many many countries and thousands of many many countries and thousands of kilometers. So you're never limited to kilometers. So you're never limited to kilometers. So you're never limited to one one situation. And if if now the one one situation. And if if now the one one situation. And if if now the situation escalates in Yemen, you can be situation escalates in Yemen, you can be situation escalates in Yemen, you can be sure that it won't remain contained to sure that it won't remain contained to sure that it won't remain contained to that territory for a long time.

that territory for a long time. that territory for a long time. You already have You already have You already have two very important sea straits affected. It means that the number of actors that It means that the number of actors that will need to get involved and exercise will need to get involved and exercise will need to get involved and exercise political pressure is increasing. Hm. So political pressure is increasing. Hm. So political pressure is increasing. Hm. So you have a lack of trust. you have a lack of trust. you have a lack of trust. You have asymmetric warfare that You have asymmetric warfare that You have asymmetric warfare that continue that allows these conflicts to continue that allows these conflicts to continue that allows these conflicts to continue for an extended period of time. continue for an extended period of time. continue for an extended period of time. And on top of this and I haven't And on top of this and I haven't And on top of this and I haven't mentioned this yet is a total absence of mentioned this yet is a total absence of mentioned this yet is a total absence of economic growth and you know a fast and you know a fast loss of development gains that have been loss of development gains that have been loss of development gains that have been essential for for the welfare of the essential for for the welfare of the essential for for the welfare of the people in many countries of the world. people in many countries of the world. people in many countries of the world. Take Iraq to begin with. You know, over Take Iraq to begin with. You know, over Take Iraq to begin with. You know, over the last 10 years, the the country has the last 10 years, the the country has the last 10 years, the the country has been recovering from from very been recovering from from very been recovering from from very large conflicts that have had a heavy large conflicts that have had a heavy large conflicts that have had a heavy impact on society and the economies.

impact on society and the economies. impact on society and the economies. These gains are being undone. Countries These gains are being undone. Countries These gains are being undone. Countries don't have the fiscal space anymore don't have the fiscal space anymore don't have the fiscal space anymore to cope with the fallout created by to cope with the fallout created by to cope with the fallout created by continued warfare. continued warfare. continued warfare. And at the same time there's no prospect And at the same time there's no prospect And at the same time there's no prospect of economic growth that would allow us of economic growth that would allow us of economic growth that would allow us to feel you know capable of repaying the to feel you know capable of repaying the to feel you know capable of repaying the debts that are being created today. debts that are being created today. debts that are being created today. [gasps] So the combination of these or [gasps] So the combination of these or [gasps] So the combination of these or the com convergence of these trends is the com convergence of these trends is the com convergence of these trends is extremely dangerous. extremely dangerous. extremely dangerous. I still insist we will not be able to I still insist we will not be able to I still insist we will not be able to get out of it without negotiations. But get out of it without negotiations. But get out of it without negotiations. But these negotiations have to happen these negotiations have to happen these negotiations have to happen yesterday. yesterday. yesterday. They will last as long as it takes. They They will last as long as it takes. They They will last as long as it takes. They will require a lot of consensus will require a lot of consensus will require a lot of consensus and a lot of people involved. and a lot of people involved. and a lot of people involved. This has to be understood. And now what This has to be understood. And now what This has to be understood. And now what do we need? We need political will. do we need? We need political will. do we need? We need political will. There's not much we can do if this There's not much we can do if this There's not much we can do if this continues to escalate. We need continues to escalate. We need continues to escalate. We need negotiations. We need powerful negotiations. We need powerful negotiations. We need powerful politicians. I personally I want politicians. I personally I want politicians. I personally I want politicians to have power to negotiate.

politicians to have power to negotiate. politicians to have power to negotiate. President Trump in his recent speech at President Trump in his recent speech at President Trump in his recent speech at the UN General Assembly was threatening the UN General Assembly was threatening the UN General Assembly was threatening the annihilation of Iran by US forces. the annihilation of Iran by US forces. the annihilation of Iran by US forces. Speaking of this idea of trust and using Speaking of this idea of trust and using Speaking of this idea of trust and using war as a method of negotiation, war as a method of negotiation, war as a method of negotiation, >> will a deal be made with Iran that lets >> will a deal be made with Iran that lets >> will a deal be made with Iran that lets them rebuild and create a far greater them rebuild and create a far greater them rebuild and create a far greater country than it ever was before? country than it ever was before? country than it ever was before? maybe one of the greatest in the Middle maybe one of the greatest in the Middle maybe one of the greatest in the Middle East or even the world East or even the world East or even the world or do I annihilate the Islamic Republic or do I annihilate the Islamic Republic or do I annihilate the Islamic Republic and he's used language like that quite a and he's used language like that quite a and he's used language like that quite a bit. Um but you know it was notable to bit. Um but you know it was notable to bit. Um but you know it was notable to me me me in that particular speech because in that particular speech because in that particular speech because he made that statement at a body he made that statement at a body he made that statement at a body explicitly explicitly explicitly created to stop wars which is the United created to stop wars which is the United created to stop wars which is the United Nations. Nations. Nations. And And And I'm just wondering I'm just wondering I'm just wondering what you think what you think what you think that kind of language says about that kind of language says about that kind of language says about America's understanding and commitment America's understanding and commitment America's understanding and commitment right now to these very complex in-depth right now to these very complex in-depth right now to these very complex in-depth negotiations that you say are needed.

negotiations that you say are needed. negotiations that you say are needed. You know, I started my career as a You know, I started my career as a You know, I started my career as a diplomat about 25 years ago in New York. diplomat about 25 years ago in New York. diplomat about 25 years ago in New York. And since I've been observing eroding language, you know, certain eroding language, you know, certain things said back then would have things said back then would have things said back then would have triggered points of order. You know, triggered points of order. You know, triggered points of order. You know, people would have left the room. There people would have left the room. There people would have left the room. There would have been outrage. I remember when would have been outrage. I remember when would have been outrage. I remember when at the time Hugo Chavez spoke at the at the time Hugo Chavez spoke at the at the time Hugo Chavez spoke at the general assembly and what reactions this general assembly and what reactions this general assembly and what reactions this triggered. triggered. triggered. >> Yes. When he talked about President Bush >> Yes. When he talked about President Bush >> Yes. When he talked about President Bush and uh the smell of sulfur implying that and uh the smell of sulfur implying that and uh the smell of sulfur implying that he was the devil. he was the devil. he was the devil. >> Exactly. This is a gradual erosion. Then >> Exactly. This is a gradual erosion. Then >> Exactly. This is a gradual erosion. Then all of a sudden makes you realize but all of a sudden makes you realize but all of a sudden makes you realize but there are things being said that there are things being said that there are things being said that you know give in certain situations you know give in certain situations you know give in certain situations could even lead to war crimes because could even lead to war crimes because could even lead to war crimes because you depending on who you are and what you depending on who you are and what you depending on who you are and what the situation looks like could entice the situation looks like could entice the situation looks like could entice people to do things that would actually people to do things that would actually people to do things that would actually amount to war crimes. This is why hate amount to war crimes. This is why hate amount to war crimes. This is why hate speech and this this brutal language is speech and this this brutal language is speech and this this brutal language is so dangerous. But you know I'm not so dangerous. But you know I'm not so dangerous. But you know I'm not accusing a specific person today because accusing a specific person today because accusing a specific person today because this erosion has been happening for for this erosion has been happening for for this erosion has been happening for for far too long and I've been alert for far too long and I've been alert for far too long and I've been alert for many years now why nobody is standing up many years now why nobody is standing up many years now why nobody is standing up and saying this this cannot happen and saying this this cannot happen and saying this this cannot happen because this in itself is preparing for because this in itself is preparing for because this in itself is preparing for war. But most importantly, every

war. But most importantly, every war. But most importantly, every politician that uses the term politician that uses the term politician that uses the term any term that points that there are no any term that points that there are no any term that points that there are no rules and there are no red lines rules and there are no red lines rules and there are no red lines sends this signal to any person in the sends this signal to any person in the sends this signal to any person in the world that bears a weapon that holds a world that bears a weapon that holds a world that bears a weapon that holds a weapon. You have to be conscious that weapon. You have to be conscious that weapon. You have to be conscious that as as a holder of power, you have a far as as a holder of power, you have a far as as a holder of power, you have a far bigger reach. So far many more people bigger reach. So far many more people bigger reach. So far many more people here. Oh, there are no red lines. I have here. Oh, there are no red lines. I have here. Oh, there are no red lines. I have weapons. I I can I can use them. One of weapons. I I can I can use them. One of weapons. I I can I can use them. One of the things that struck me about why the things that struck me about why the things that struck me about why we're in such a period of global we're in such a period of global we're in such a period of global conflict is that it's relatively easy to conflict is that it's relatively easy to conflict is that it's relatively easy to get into wars as you've said, but get into wars as you've said, but get into wars as you've said, but increasingly hard to get out of them. increasingly hard to get out of them. increasingly hard to get out of them. So, they drag on and accumulate. So, a So, they drag on and accumulate. So, a So, they drag on and accumulate. So, a war that started 15 years ago doesn't war that started 15 years ago doesn't war that started 15 years ago doesn't get resolved and then new wars are added get resolved and then new wars are added get resolved and then new wars are added to that. And so what we're seeing is to that. And so what we're seeing is to that. And so what we're seeing is just just just conflict upon conflict upon conflict.

conflict upon conflict upon conflict. conflict upon conflict upon conflict. Are we losing our capacity to resolve Are we losing our capacity to resolve Are we losing our capacity to resolve conflicts? Definitely. I mean, that's a conflicts? Definitely. I mean, that's a conflicts? Definitely. I mean, that's a fact. If you don't negotiate over 10 fact. If you don't negotiate over 10 fact. If you don't negotiate over 10 years, you you lose years, you you lose years, you you lose the practice, you know. You cannot It's the practice, you know. You cannot It's the practice, you know. You cannot It's like being a a heart surgeon. You don't like being a a heart surgeon. You don't like being a a heart surgeon. You don't stop operating and then come back and stop operating and then come back and stop operating and then come back and they give you the instruments and you they give you the instruments and you they give you the instruments and you resume. You know, negotiation is resume. You know, negotiation is resume. You know, negotiation is something that you need to master. I I something that you need to master. I I something that you need to master. I I spoke once with a senior representative spoke once with a senior representative spoke once with a senior representative of the ANC in South Africa who told me of the ANC in South Africa who told me of the ANC in South Africa who told me our our our adversaries adversaries adversaries never had to negotiate anything. They never had to negotiate anything. They never had to negotiate anything. They didn't know how to do it. So, we had to didn't know how to do it. So, we had to didn't know how to do it. So, we had to train them first before we could sit at train them first before we could sit at train them first before we could sit at the negotiation table. You know, the negotiation table. You know, the negotiation table. You know, negotiations require so many things and negotiations require so many things and negotiations require so many things and they require especially political they require especially political they require especially political weight, courage weight, courage weight, courage and and compromise. But you need to know and and compromise. But you need to know and and compromise. But you need to know what your red lines in the negotiation what your red lines in the negotiation what your red lines in the negotiation are, how far you prepared to go, and how are, how far you prepared to go, and how are, how far you prepared to go, and how you get the other party to agree. when you get the other party to agree. when you get the other party to agree. when you look at Ukraine and Russia, Iran and you look at Ukraine and Russia, Iran and you look at Ukraine and Russia, Iran and the US, there have only been sort of the US, there have only been sort of the US, there have only been sort of sporadic attempts to negotiate sporadic attempts to negotiate sporadic attempts to negotiate um because there's no, you know, this is um because there's no, you know, this is um because there's no, you know, this is this is not yet this is not yet this is not yet the expression of courage and will to the expression of courage and will to the expression of courage and will to come to an agreement. I mean, sending come to an agreement. I mean, sending come to an agreement. I mean, sending the vice president, for example, to Iran the vice president, for example, to Iran the vice president, for example, to Iran for a day, that's not a negotiation for a day, that's not a negotiation for a day, that's not a negotiation strategy. I think when you think about

strategy. I think when you think about strategy. I think when you think about the context of the Iran nuclear deal, the context of the Iran nuclear deal, the context of the Iran nuclear deal, hundreds of people, years, you know, you hundreds of people, years, you know, you hundreds of people, years, you know, you know when it's serious and you know when know when it's serious and you know when know when it's serious and you know when it's happening, you know, undergirling this whole you know, undergirling this whole discussion discussion discussion and your call and your call and your call for leaders to pick up the phone is the for leaders to pick up the phone is the for leaders to pick up the phone is the breakdown of many democracies breakdown of many democracies breakdown of many democracies um and the institutions that hold them um and the institutions that hold them um and the institutions that hold them together. together. together. You know, the weakness that we're seeing You know, the weakness that we're seeing You know, the weakness that we're seeing in upholding liberal democracy means in upholding liberal democracy means in upholding liberal democracy means that international organizations are that international organizations are that international organizations are also weak. You know, look at Germany, a also weak. You know, look at Germany, a also weak. You know, look at Germany, a country you know well, the far right, country you know well, the far right, country you know well, the far right, the far left surged in recent elections. the far left surged in recent elections. the far left surged in recent elections. Citizens are angry. They're looking for Citizens are angry. They're looking for Citizens are angry. They're looking for solutions. They have a lack of faith in solutions. They have a lack of faith in solutions. They have a lack of faith in politics to solve their problems in a politics to solve their problems in a politics to solve their problems in a way that feels way that feels way that feels um beneficial to them. and governments um beneficial to them. and governments um beneficial to them. and governments seem to be increasingly afraid of their seem to be increasingly afraid of their seem to be increasingly afraid of their own populations. Are you worried about the complete Are you worried about the complete breakdown of the postworld war II order?

breakdown of the postworld war II order? breakdown of the postworld war II order? [snorts] Of course I am because that order made Of course I am because that order made it possible for Europe to stay out of a it possible for Europe to stay out of a it possible for Europe to stay out of a of a third world war to stay out of the of a third world war to stay out of the of a third world war to stay out of the levels of destructions that we have seen levels of destructions that we have seen levels of destructions that we have seen you know coming from these wars. you know coming from these wars. you know coming from these wars. Europe is in a certain way also the Europe is in a certain way also the Europe is in a certain way also the leader of bad wars. You know I'm I'm I'm leader of bad wars. You know I'm I'm I'm leader of bad wars. You know I'm I'm I'm I feel very bad saying that but we we I feel very bad saying that but we we I feel very bad saying that but we we have to acknowledge that the European or have to acknowledge that the European or have to acknowledge that the European or the Western history is not one of peace the Western history is not one of peace the Western history is not one of peace and security but coming out of that and security but coming out of that and security but coming out of that trouble there was there were a few trouble there was there were a few trouble there was there were a few people who had the foresight and the people who had the foresight and the people who had the foresight and the courage to establish an international courage to establish an international courage to establish an international system that is in no ways perfect system that is in no ways perfect system that is in no ways perfect but for a long time prevented the worst but for a long time prevented the worst but for a long time prevented the worst and that system is there including the and that system is there including the and that system is there including the Geneva convention ions. I mean, Geneva convention ions. I mean, Geneva convention ions. I mean, everything that is written in the Geneva everything that is written in the Geneva everything that is written in the Geneva Conventions today is still as valid Conventions today is still as valid Conventions today is still as valid because if you had to rewrite them, you because if you had to rewrite them, you because if you had to rewrite them, you would come back with the same would come back with the same would come back with the same principles, trust me, because they're so principles, trust me, because they're so principles, trust me, because they're so intuitive and logical intuitive and logical intuitive and logical in any society, religion, culture.

in any society, religion, culture. in any society, religion, culture. Nobody will tell you it's it's correct Nobody will tell you it's it's correct Nobody will tell you it's it's correct to torture a child. I mean, how how to torture a child. I mean, how how to torture a child. I mean, how how unimaginable would that be for any unimaginable would that be for any unimaginable would that be for any society to come back to this idea of society to come back to this idea of society to come back to this idea of where we are in the world right now that where we are in the world right now that where we are in the world right now that perhaps we might already be in this perhaps we might already be in this perhaps we might already be in this third global war without us knowing what can we do? What should we be doing? what can we do? What should we be doing? [gasps] [gasps] [gasps] You know, let's go back to that time You know, let's go back to that time You know, let's go back to that time when when we we believed in peace. Why when when we we believed in peace. Why when when we we believed in peace. Why is it so wrong to start the global is it so wrong to start the global is it so wrong to start the global movement around the notion of peace and movement around the notion of peace and movement around the notion of peace and world peace? It's possible. I I think world peace? It's possible. I I think world peace? It's possible. I I think when I talk to my children, for them when I talk to my children, for them when I talk to my children, for them peace is is not something completely peace is is not something completely peace is is not something completely away and absent. This is how they away and absent. This is how they away and absent. This is how they imagine their future. I think we have to imagine their future. I think we have to imagine their future. I think we have to listen to them and we have to listen to them and we have to listen to them and we have to we have to start we have to start we have to start you know retreating from an overfocus on you know retreating from an overfocus on you know retreating from an overfocus on weapons, weapon systems, defense weapons, weapon systems, defense weapons, weapon systems, defense technologies.

technologies. technologies. We also have to recreate a positive We also have to recreate a positive We also have to recreate a positive narrative about humanity, about peace, narrative about humanity, about peace, narrative about humanity, about peace, about coming together and working about coming together and working about coming together and working together and living together because together and living together because together and living together because there is a minimum ground that nobody there is a minimum ground that nobody there is a minimum ground that nobody has has has left yet. And that is the ratification left yet. And that is the ratification left yet. And that is the ratification of of the Geneva Conventions, of of the Geneva Conventions, of of the Geneva Conventions, the commitment to a set of rules that the commitment to a set of rules that the commitment to a set of rules that you know prevent the worst, you know prevent the worst, you know prevent the worst, that prevent the destruction of that prevent the destruction of that prevent the destruction of humanity. We have to come back to humanity. We have to come back to humanity. We have to come back to recognizing that humanity recognizing that humanity recognizing that humanity is what holds us together and that this is what holds us together and that this is what holds us together and that this is something we need to protect as a is something we need to protect as a is something we need to protect as a priority today because we're debasing priority today because we're debasing priority today because we're debasing almost everything. Mariana Spolarich, almost everything. Mariana Spolarich, almost everything. Mariana Spolarich, thank you so much. I have really thank you so much. I have really thank you so much. I have really found our conversation very sobering. found our conversation very sobering. found our conversation very sobering. >> I thank you. That's Mirana.

That's Mirana. To watch this interview and many others, To watch this interview and many others, To watch this interview and many others, you can subscribe to our YouTube channel you can subscribe to our YouTube channel you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/syoltheinodcast. at youtube.com/syoltheinodcast. at youtube.com/syoltheinodcast. [music] [music] [music] This conversation was produced by Seth This conversation was produced by Seth This conversation was produced by Seth Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing Kelly. It was edited by John Woo, mixing by Sophia Lanman. [music] Original music by Sophia Lanman. [music] Original music by Sophia Lanman. [music] Original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The Photography by Philip Montgomery. The Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Pria Matthew, rest of the team is Pria Matthew, rest of the team is Pria Matthew, [music] Wyatt Orm, Pow Nudorf, Maya [music] Wyatt Orm, Pow Nudorf, Maya [music] Wyatt Orm, Pow Nudorf, Maya Tepler, Eddie Costas, Leland James, Tepler, Eddie Costas, Leland James, Tepler, Eddie Costas, Leland James, Gabby Contreras, [music] Kathleen Gabby Contreras, [music] Kathleen Gabby Contreras, [music] Kathleen O'Brien, and Brook Murers. Our executive O'Brien, and Brook Murers. Our executive O'Brien, and Brook Murers. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, [music] David talks with Bono and the [music] David talks with Bono and the [music] David talks with Bono and the Edge about YouTube's 50th birthday Edge about YouTube's 50th birthday Edge about YouTube's 50th birthday [music] and the band's forthcoming [music] and the band's forthcoming [music] and the band's forthcoming album. I'm Lula Garcia Navaro, and this album. I'm Lula Garcia Navaro, and this album. I'm Lula Garcia Navaro, and this is the interview from the New York is the interview from the New York is the interview from the New York Times.