Can You Learn to Be Happy? Yes, Says This Yale Scientist. | The Interview

It's great to have, you know, great sex It's great to have, you know, great sex and hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately and hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately and hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately true happiness probably comes from what true happiness probably comes from what true happiness probably comes from what we do with others and building a broader we do with others and building a broader we do with others and building a broader good life. I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and today I'm I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro and today I'm interviewing Dr. Lorie Santos. Dr. interviewing Dr. Lorie Santos. Dr. interviewing Dr. Lorie Santos. Dr. Santos is a scientist who teaches the Santos is a scientist who teaches the Santos is a scientist who teaches the most popular class in Yale's history, a most popular class in Yale's history, a most popular class in Yale's history, a class on happiness. It's funny when we class on happiness. It's funny when we class on happiness. It's funny when we think about happiness because I think we think about happiness because I think we think about happiness because I think we do kind of think of it as a destination, do kind of think of it as a destination, do kind of think of it as a destination, but we don't think of that with other but we don't think of that with other but we don't think of that with other good things in life. Through her good things in life. Through her good things in life. Through her podcast, The Happiness Lab, and her free podcast, The Happiness Lab, and her free podcast, The Happiness Lab, and her free online course called The Science of online course called The Science of online course called The Science of Well-being, Sandress's reach has Well-being, Sandress's reach has Well-being, Sandress's reach has extended well beyond the Yale classroom, extended well beyond the Yale classroom, extended well beyond the Yale classroom, offering researchbacked tips and offering researchbacked tips and offering researchbacked tips and conversations for how to feel happier. I conversations for how to feel happier. I conversations for how to feel happier. I think we really just definitionally think we really just definitionally think we really just definitionally think of happiness as about me, me, me. think of happiness as about me, me, me. think of happiness as about me, me, me. And so much of the science and so much And so much of the science and so much And so much of the science and so much of this classic wisdom tells us no, it's of this classic wisdom tells us no, it's of this classic wisdom tells us no, it's not. not. not. >> But what exactly is happiness? Here's my >> But what exactly is happiness? Here's my >> But what exactly is happiness? Here's my conversation with Dr. Lorie Santos. conversation with Dr. Lorie Santos. conversation with Dr. Lorie Santos. Thank you so much for being here. I'm so Thank you so much for being here. I'm so Thank you so much for being here. I'm so glad you could join me.

glad you could join me. glad you could join me. >> Thanks so much for having me on the >> Thanks so much for having me on the >> Thanks so much for having me on the show. I'm such a big fan, so this is show. I'm such a big fan, so this is show. I'm such a big fan, so this is such a treat. such a treat. such a treat. >> I am going to start in a bit of a >> I am going to start in a bit of a >> I am going to start in a bit of a strange place. Um because like so many strange place. Um because like so many strange place. Um because like so many people in the world, I was really people in the world, I was really people in the world, I was really obsessed with the story of Punch the obsessed with the story of Punch the obsessed with the story of Punch the Monkey Monkey Monkey >> and that little monkey in Japan whose >> and that little monkey in Japan whose >> and that little monkey in Japan whose mother sort of rejected him and he had mother sort of rejected him and he had mother sort of rejected him and he had no one to socialize with. So he adopted no one to socialize with. So he adopted no one to socialize with. So he adopted that IKEA monkey toy. that IKEA monkey toy. that IKEA monkey toy. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And I have a theory about Punch that >> And I have a theory about Punch that >> And I have a theory about Punch that connects to happiness and I wanted to connects to happiness and I wanted to connects to happiness and I wanted to put it to you because apart from being a put it to you because apart from being a put it to you because apart from being a happiness expert, you also study animal happiness expert, you also study animal happiness expert, you also study animal cognition and you started your work with cognition and you started your work with cognition and you started your work with monkeys. Literally everyone that I know monkeys. Literally everyone that I know monkeys. Literally everyone that I know sent me information about Punch. I was sent me information about Punch. I was sent me information about Punch. I was like getting in real time what was like getting in real time what was like getting in real time what was happening with Punch. I was really happening with Punch. I was really happening with Punch. I was really thinking about why so many people around thinking about why so many people around thinking about why so many people around the world connected with Punch's the world connected with Punch's the world connected with Punch's inability to form relationships. inability to form relationships. inability to form relationships. And you've long said that the bonds with And you've long said that the bonds with And you've long said that the bonds with other people are one of the building other people are one of the building other people are one of the building blocks of happiness. It's one of the blocks of happiness. It's one of the blocks of happiness. It's one of the most important things that we can do. most important things that we can do. most important things that we can do. But especially here in the US, those But especially here in the US, those But especially here in the US, those bonds were fraying. And I think we just bonds were fraying. And I think we just bonds were fraying. And I think we just saw some of ourselves in punch. Do you saw some of ourselves in punch. Do you saw some of ourselves in punch. Do you think I may be right? Yeah, I think so.

think I may be right? Yeah, I think so. think I may be right? Yeah, I think so. I mean, I think, you know, it was it was I mean, I think, you know, it was it was I mean, I think, you know, it was it was fascinating to see just how much emotion fascinating to see just how much emotion fascinating to see just how much emotion people showed about Punch, which I think people showed about Punch, which I think people showed about Punch, which I think is funny because sometimes we see news is funny because sometimes we see news is funny because sometimes we see news stories about the pain of other actual stories about the pain of other actual stories about the pain of other actual humans and we don't show that much humans and we don't show that much humans and we don't show that much compassion, right? But I think talking compassion, right? But I think talking compassion, right? But I think talking about the loneliness crisis through a about the loneliness crisis through a about the loneliness crisis through a monkey, like through this poor little monkey, like through this poor little monkey, like through this poor little monkey that didn't do anything, it monkey that didn't do anything, it monkey that didn't do anything, it wasn't really his fault. I think that wasn't really his fault. I think that wasn't really his fault. I think that really allowed us a way to talk about really allowed us a way to talk about really allowed us a way to talk about the loneliness crisis and to feel it and the loneliness crisis and to feel it and the loneliness crisis and to feel it and admit it in ourselves in a way that admit it in ourselves in a way that admit it in ourselves in a way that wasn't as shameful. You know, I spent a wasn't as shameful. You know, I spent a wasn't as shameful. You know, I spent a lot of time in advance of this lot of time in advance of this lot of time in advance of this conversation really thinking about the conversation really thinking about the conversation really thinking about the nature of happiness. And I want to start nature of happiness. And I want to start nature of happiness. And I want to start by digging into just what happiness is. by digging into just what happiness is. by digging into just what happiness is. Uh, and maybe do some basic defining of Uh, and maybe do some basic defining of Uh, and maybe do some basic defining of terms because I went down a few rabbit terms because I went down a few rabbit terms because I went down a few rabbit holes. Uh, holes. Uh, holes. Uh, >> if you can, it's very easy to do with >> if you can, it's very easy to do with >> if you can, it's very easy to do with this term in particular. this term in particular. this term in particular. >> Yeah. And so, um, as I discovered, lots >> Yeah. And so, um, as I discovered, lots >> Yeah. And so, um, as I discovered, lots of philosophers have tackled the of philosophers have tackled the of philosophers have tackled the question of happiness going back to question of happiness going back to question of happiness going back to ancient Greece. And there's two main ancient Greece. And there's two main ancient Greece. And there's two main types of happiness according to ancient types of happiness according to ancient types of happiness according to ancient Greek philosophers as far as I could Greek philosophers as far as I could Greek philosophers as far as I could tell. And one is uh hedonic and the tell. And one is uh hedonic and the tell. And one is uh hedonic and the other one is udemonic. Can you explain other one is udemonic. Can you explain other one is udemonic. Can you explain what that is? What the difference is?

what that is? What the difference is? what that is? What the difference is? What they were sort of looking at back What they were sort of looking at back What they were sort of looking at back then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So hedonic then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So hedonic then? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So hedonic happiness I think is what a lot of lay happiness I think is what a lot of lay happiness I think is what a lot of lay people mean when they mean happiness. people mean when they mean happiness. people mean when they mean happiness. That's just like a sense of good That's just like a sense of good That's just like a sense of good feeling, right? That's your personal feeling, right? That's your personal feeling, right? That's your personal pleasure. That's like the difference pleasure. That's like the difference pleasure. That's like the difference between eating a hot fudge Sunday or between eating a hot fudge Sunday or between eating a hot fudge Sunday or stubbing your toe, right? Like there's stubbing your toe, right? Like there's stubbing your toe, right? Like there's some there's something that it feels some there's something that it feels some there's something that it feels like to feel like things are good. And like to feel like things are good. And like to feel like things are good. And often when we're thinking of hedonic often when we're thinking of hedonic often when we're thinking of hedonic pleasure, we're thinking of the real pleasure, we're thinking of the real pleasure, we're thinking of the real basic stuff, the illusion built in, you basic stuff, the illusion built in, you basic stuff, the illusion built in, you know, good food, good sex, a feeling of know, good food, good sex, a feeling of know, good food, good sex, a feeling of like accomplishment. Like these are the like accomplishment. Like these are the like accomplishment. Like these are the things that matter for us. Udonic things that matter for us. Udonic things that matter for us. Udonic happiness is bigger. It's really about happiness is bigger. It's really about happiness is bigger. It's really about living a good life. It's about happiness living a good life. It's about happiness living a good life. It's about happiness that comes not just from your own that comes not just from your own that comes not just from your own success, your own pleasure, but from success, your own pleasure, but from success, your own pleasure, but from other people, from like actually other people, from like actually other people, from like actually building character. And if you look back building character. And if you look back building character. And if you look back at the ancients, folks like Aristotle at the ancients, folks like Aristotle at the ancients, folks like Aristotle and so on, they knew about both. But and so on, they knew about both. But and so on, they knew about both. But when when push came to shove, they were when when push came to shove, they were when when push came to shove, they were like, "Go for the udemonic happiness, like, "Go for the udemonic happiness, like, "Go for the udemonic happiness, right? That is really it's really right? That is really it's really right? That is really it's really about." They thought of like happiness about." They thought of like happiness about." They thought of like happiness as really synonymous with building as really synonymous with building as really synonymous with building character, um doing nice stuff for character, um doing nice stuff for character, um doing nice stuff for others, civic virtue. It was much more others, civic virtue. It was much more others, civic virtue. It was much more like happiness as virtue. And when you like happiness as virtue. And when you like happiness as virtue. And when you look at the modern science, like this look at the modern science, like this look at the modern science, like this tension comes up, right, in a lot of the tension comes up, right, in a lot of the tension comes up, right, in a lot of the interventions I talk about with my interventions I talk about with my interventions I talk about with my students and maybe we'll even talk about students and maybe we'll even talk about students and maybe we'll even talk about today, there's a real question about today, there's a real question about today, there's a real question about which type of happiness we're building which type of happiness we're building which type of happiness we're building up. And I think where the research falls up. And I think where the research falls up. And I think where the research falls is saying that like if we want to do is saying that like if we want to do is saying that like if we want to do this well, we should probably go be this well, we should probably go be this well, we should probably go be going more for the udemonic stuff. Like going more for the udemonic stuff. Like going more for the udemonic stuff. Like that's the stuff we don't get used to.

that's the stuff we don't get used to. that's the stuff we don't get used to. That's the stuff where we get kind of That's the stuff where we get kind of That's the stuff where we get kind of more bang for our buck in terms of more bang for our buck in terms of more bang for our buck in terms of interventions and time and so on. But interventions and time and so on. But interventions and time and so on. But all too often when you look on the all too often when you look on the all too often when you look on the internet, if you look at social media internet, if you look at social media internet, if you look at social media influencers, when they're talking about influencers, when they're talking about influencers, when they're talking about happiness, they usually mean the hedonic happiness, they usually mean the hedonic happiness, they usually mean the hedonic stuff. And that's great. I mean, it's stuff. And that's great. I mean, it's stuff. And that's great. I mean, it's great to have, you know, great sex and great to have, you know, great sex and great to have, you know, great sex and hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately, you hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately, you hot fudge Sundays, but ultimately, you know, true happiness probably comes from know, true happiness probably comes from know, true happiness probably comes from what we do with others and building a a what we do with others and building a a what we do with others and building a a broader good life. In ancient Greece, broader good life. In ancient Greece, broader good life. In ancient Greece, the big philosophical debate was also if the big philosophical debate was also if the big philosophical debate was also if happiness is nature or nurture. What happiness is nature or nurture. What happiness is nature or nurture. What does the science say? Are certain people does the science say? Are certain people does the science say? Are certain people more predisposed to be happy? Is it more predisposed to be happy? Is it more predisposed to be happy? Is it biological? biological? biological? >> Yeah. Yeah. So the way scientists study >> Yeah. Yeah. So the way scientists study >> Yeah. Yeah. So the way scientists study this is they do these classic studies this is they do these classic studies this is they do these classic studies with twins. And the reason scientists with twins. And the reason scientists with twins. And the reason scientists are so obsessed with twins is that you are so obsessed with twins is that you are so obsessed with twins is that you get two kinds of twins. You get get two kinds of twins. You get get two kinds of twins. You get identical twins who are genetic clones identical twins who are genetic clones identical twins who are genetic clones of one another. And you also have of one another. And you also have of one another. And you also have fraternal twins who are as related as fraternal twins who are as related as fraternal twins who are as related as regular siblings but you know they were regular siblings but you know they were regular siblings but you know they were in the same womb. They probably grew up in the same womb. They probably grew up in the same womb. They probably grew up the same way and so on. And so what the same way and so on. And so what the same way and so on. And so what scientists do is they say, well, if scientists do is they say, well, if scientists do is they say, well, if there's a genetic component to there's a genetic component to there's a genetic component to happiness, if something about the happiness, if something about the happiness, if something about the variance that we see in the population variance that we see in the population variance that we see in the population is controlled by our genes, then those is controlled by our genes, then those is controlled by our genes, then those identical twins should look more similar identical twins should look more similar identical twins should look more similar in terms of their happiness than the in terms of their happiness than the in terms of their happiness than the fraternal twins. And like lots of fraternal twins. And like lots of fraternal twins. And like lots of studies have looked at this and what studies have looked at this and what studies have looked at this and what they generally find is that happiness is they generally find is that happiness is they generally find is that happiness is heritable. In other words, that doesn't heritable. In other words, that doesn't heritable. In other words, that doesn't mean there's a gene for happiness or mean there's a gene for happiness or mean there's a gene for happiness or anything like that. That means that some anything like that. That means that some anything like that. That means that some of the variance that we see in the of the variance that we see in the of the variance that we see in the population is due to the fact that population is due to the fact that population is due to the fact that somebody has one set of genetics versus somebody has one set of genetics versus somebody has one set of genetics versus another set of genetics. The important another set of genetics. The important another set of genetics. The important thing to know about that those thing to know about that those thing to know about that those heritability studies though is that the heritability studies though is that the heritability studies though is that the heritability factor is pretty low. It's heritability factor is pretty low. It's heritability factor is pretty low. It's about the same rate as what you'd see

about the same rate as what you'd see about the same rate as what you'd see for the heritability of something like for the heritability of something like for the heritability of something like religiosity or risk-taking, right? I religiosity or risk-taking, right? I religiosity or risk-taking, right? I mean, religiosity is probably, you know, mean, religiosity is probably, you know, mean, religiosity is probably, you know, if your parents were super religious, if your parents were super religious, if your parents were super religious, maybe you're more likely to be super maybe you're more likely to be super maybe you're more likely to be super religious, but obviously it's not set in religious, but obviously it's not set in religious, but obviously it's not set in stone. Same thing with risk-taking. And stone. Same thing with risk-taking. And stone. Same thing with risk-taking. And I think that's the message of happiness. I think that's the message of happiness. I think that's the message of happiness. Yeah, there there's probably some Yeah, there there's probably some Yeah, there there's probably some component that's a little built in, but component that's a little built in, but component that's a little built in, but so much more of it is under our so much more of it is under our so much more of it is under our conscious control. So we can learn to be conscious control. So we can learn to be conscious control. So we can learn to be happy. I think that's the premise of my happy. I think that's the premise of my happy. I think that's the premise of my work. Honestly, it's it's that we have work. Honestly, it's it's that we have work. Honestly, it's it's that we have much more control over it. And much more control over it. And much more control over it. And interestingly, this was something that interestingly, this was something that interestingly, this was something that the ancient Greeks didn't totally the ancient Greeks didn't totally the ancient Greeks didn't totally realize. You know, if you look at realize. You know, if you look at realize. You know, if you look at Aristotle, he's like, you we should Aristotle, he's like, you we should Aristotle, he's like, you we should cultivate virtue. You can do it, but cultivate virtue. You can do it, but cultivate virtue. You can do it, but it's going to be hard. You know, it's going to be hard. You know, it's going to be hard. You know, Aristotle talked about the happy few. Aristotle talked about the happy few. Aristotle talked about the happy few. It's like, you know, you can go for it, It's like, you know, you can go for it, It's like, you know, you can go for it, but it's going to take a lot of work and but it's going to take a lot of work and but it's going to take a lot of work and probably a lot of folks aren't going to probably a lot of folks aren't going to probably a lot of folks aren't going to be up for that level of work. I think we be up for that level of work. I think we be up for that level of work. I think we think it's a little bit more malleable think it's a little bit more malleable think it's a little bit more malleable scientifically today, but we still share scientifically today, but we still share scientifically today, but we still share with Aristotle this idea that like if with Aristotle this idea that like if with Aristotle this idea that like if you want to be happy, you can do it. But you want to be happy, you can do it. But you want to be happy, you can do it. But like all good things in life, you got to like all good things in life, you got to like all good things in life, you got to put some time in. When we think about put some time in. When we think about put some time in. When we think about happiness or well-being, is is there a happiness or well-being, is is there a happiness or well-being, is is there a goal or is it just in the way that goal or is it just in the way that goal or is it just in the way that Aristotle said, an endless pursuit? I Aristotle said, an endless pursuit? I Aristotle said, an endless pursuit? I mean, can we reach the mountaintop and mean, can we reach the mountaintop and mean, can we reach the mountaintop and we just sit there or is it just always we just sit there or is it just always we just sit there or is it just always searching for that place? The pursuit of searching for that place? The pursuit of searching for that place? The pursuit of happiness is not like a destination.

happiness is not like a destination. happiness is not like a destination. Like if I hopped on a flight and I got Like if I hopped on a flight and I got Like if I hopped on a flight and I got to LA, if I hopped on a flight to get to to LA, if I hopped on a flight to get to to LA, if I hopped on a flight to get to LA, I'd just be in LA and I'd be like, LA, I'd just be in LA and I'd be like, LA, I'd just be in LA and I'd be like, "All right, LA, I'm here." You know, if "All right, LA, I'm here." You know, if "All right, LA, I'm here." You know, if I, you know, had the ability to stay, I I, you know, had the ability to stay, I I, you know, had the ability to stay, I could just stay there for a whole time. could just stay there for a whole time. could just stay there for a whole time. But like happiness doesn't work like But like happiness doesn't work like But like happiness doesn't work like that. It's not really a destination. And that. It's not really a destination. And that. It's not really a destination. And I think that it's funny when we think I think that it's funny when we think I think that it's funny when we think about happiness because I think we do about happiness because I think we do about happiness because I think we do kind of think of it as a destination, kind of think of it as a destination, kind of think of it as a destination, but we don't think of that with other but we don't think of that with other but we don't think of that with other good things in life. You know, take good things in life. You know, take good things in life. You know, take fitness. Like say you're trying to get fitness. Like say you're trying to get fitness. Like say you're trying to get fit. I'm going to go to the gym. It fit. I'm going to go to the gym. It fit. I'm going to go to the gym. It would be awesome if you took like one would be awesome if you took like one would be awesome if you took like one really hard hit class and then you're really hard hit class and then you're really hard hit class and then you're just good. Like you did that in your 20s just good. Like you did that in your 20s just good. Like you did that in your 20s and then, you know, all through midlife and then, you know, all through midlife and then, you know, all through midlife you're like, I took my HIT class. I'm you're like, I took my HIT class. I'm you're like, I took my HIT class. I'm good. It was a fitness was a good. It was a fitness was a good. It was a fitness was a destination. No, we kind of get like you destination. No, we kind of get like you destination. No, we kind of get like you got to keep doing it over time or those got to keep doing it over time or those got to keep doing it over time or those those kind of benefits don't stick. And those kind of benefits don't stick. And those kind of benefits don't stick. And I think that's the way to think about I think that's the way to think about I think that's the way to think about happiness. You can get there, but it's happiness. You can get there, but it's happiness. You can get there, but it's active. It takes work like so many good active. It takes work like so many good active. It takes work like so many good things. things. things. >> Can I ask you what exactly >> Can I ask you what exactly >> Can I ask you what exactly you mean when you say happy though? you mean when you say happy though? you mean when you say happy though? Because I was thinking about the nature Because I was thinking about the nature Because I was thinking about the nature of moments when I felt happy. I lived of moments when I felt happy. I lived of moments when I felt happy. I lived for 2 years in Rio de Janeiro and I for 2 years in Rio de Janeiro and I for 2 years in Rio de Janeiro and I would wake up every morning and I would would wake up every morning and I would would wake up every morning and I would look out the window and you couldn't be look out the window and you couldn't be look out the window and you couldn't be unhappy there because it was just so unhappy there because it was just so unhappy there because it was just so beautiful. and I had my young daughter beautiful. and I had my young daughter beautiful. and I had my young daughter and she would go to the beach every day and she would go to the beach every day and she would go to the beach every day and I had good friends and you know it's and I had good friends and you know it's and I had good friends and you know it's not even like looking back I was happy.

not even like looking back I was happy. not even like looking back I was happy. I knew at the time that I was I knew at the time that I was I knew at the time that I was experiencing sort of happiness. Is that experiencing sort of happiness. Is that experiencing sort of happiness. Is that different than just general well-being? different than just general well-being? different than just general well-being? Yeah. I think there's so many of these Yeah. I think there's so many of these Yeah. I think there's so many of these terms and it's so frustrating because we terms and it's so frustrating because we terms and it's so frustrating because we have so many of these terms. I also have so many of these terms. I also have so many of these terms. I also think that what lay people mean by these think that what lay people mean by these think that what lay people mean by these terms is often a little different. Yes. terms is often a little different. Yes. terms is often a little different. Yes. There are actually studies on this of There are actually studies on this of There are actually studies on this of like if you look at what lay people like if you look at what lay people like if you look at what lay people mean, they tend to mean a particular mean, they tend to mean a particular mean, they tend to mean a particular kind of happiness and it's kind of the kind of happiness and it's kind of the kind of happiness and it's kind of the one that you're getting at which is sort one that you're getting at which is sort one that you're getting at which is sort of being happy in your life which we of being happy in your life which we of being happy in your life which we might think of as like a a effective might think of as like a a effective might think of as like a a effective part of happiness. You're just part of happiness. You're just part of happiness. You're just experiencing lots of positive emotions, experiencing lots of positive emotions, experiencing lots of positive emotions, right? It's awesome to live in Rio de right? It's awesome to live in Rio de right? It's awesome to live in Rio de Janeiro. It's awesome to stick your feet Janeiro. It's awesome to stick your feet Janeiro. It's awesome to stick your feet in the sand like that just feels good. in the sand like that just feels good. in the sand like that just feels good. And that's half of I think what social And that's half of I think what social And that's half of I think what social scientists mean when they talk about scientists mean when they talk about scientists mean when they talk about happiness. They're talking about the the happiness. They're talking about the the happiness. They're talking about the the feeling how it feels to be in your life. feeling how it feels to be in your life. feeling how it feels to be in your life. It's kind of the ratio of your positive It's kind of the ratio of your positive It's kind of the ratio of your positive to negative emotions. Maybe we'll get to negative emotions. Maybe we'll get to negative emotions. Maybe we'll get into this, but happiness isn't about into this, but happiness isn't about into this, but happiness isn't about getting rid of your negative emotions. I getting rid of your negative emotions. I getting rid of your negative emotions. I think that's toxic positivity. That's think that's toxic positivity. That's think that's toxic positivity. That's not what social scientists mean. Um, but not what social scientists mean. Um, but not what social scientists mean. Um, but it really is about having a decent ratio it really is about having a decent ratio it really is about having a decent ratio between the positive to negative between the positive to negative between the positive to negative emotions. That's kind of being happy in emotions. That's kind of being happy in emotions. That's kind of being happy in your life. But happiness to according to your life. But happiness to according to your life. But happiness to according to social scientists has a second component social scientists has a second component social scientists has a second component too, which is this idea of being happy too, which is this idea of being happy too, which is this idea of being happy with your life. And that gets more with your life. And that gets more with your life. And that gets more towards these udonic components. That's towards these udonic components. That's towards these udonic components. That's that you're satisfied with your life.

that you're satisfied with your life. that you're satisfied with your life. You have a sense of meaning. you have a You have a sense of meaning. you have a You have a sense of meaning. you have a sense of purpose. Um, it feels good to sense of purpose. Um, it feels good to sense of purpose. Um, it feels good to to be you because of how you think it's to be you because of how you think it's to be you because of how you think it's going. So, this is kind of the cognitive going. So, this is kind of the cognitive going. So, this is kind of the cognitive part of happiness. And I think the work part of happiness. And I think the work part of happiness. And I think the work of what we should be doing when we're of what we should be doing when we're of what we should be doing when we're trying to pursue happiness the right way trying to pursue happiness the right way trying to pursue happiness the right way is to in theory try to boost both of is to in theory try to boost both of is to in theory try to boost both of those. You use the word toxic those. You use the word toxic those. You use the word toxic positivity. I think you're referring to positivity. I think you're referring to positivity. I think you're referring to this idea that we always need to be, you this idea that we always need to be, you this idea that we always need to be, you know, feeling great and we should always know, feeling great and we should always know, feeling great and we should always be exuding sort of optimism. Is that be exuding sort of optimism. Is that be exuding sort of optimism. Is that kind of what you're pushing back kind of what you're pushing back kind of what you're pushing back against? against? against? >> Yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, the >> Yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, the >> Yeah, that's it. I mean, you know, the it's really summed up by the phrase that it's really summed up by the phrase that it's really summed up by the phrase that you see on social media all the time of you see on social media all the time of you see on social media all the time of good vibes only. Like good vibes only. good vibes only. Like good vibes only. good vibes only. Like good vibes only. If there are any bad vibes, something's If there are any bad vibes, something's If there are any bad vibes, something's really off, right? And that just like really off, right? And that just like really off, right? And that just like doesn't make sense from the perspective doesn't make sense from the perspective doesn't make sense from the perspective of evolution. Like when I talk to my of evolution. Like when I talk to my of evolution. Like when I talk to my students, the way I often talk about students, the way I often talk about students, the way I often talk about negative emotions is as a signal, just negative emotions is as a signal, just negative emotions is as a signal, just like other negative sensations, right? like other negative sensations, right? like other negative sensations, right? You put your hand on a really hot stove, You put your hand on a really hot stove, You put your hand on a really hot stove, it's going to hurt, it's going to burn.

it's going to hurt, it's going to burn. it's going to hurt, it's going to burn. And the reason you have that feeling is And the reason you have that feeling is And the reason you have that feeling is it's a good signal. It's like, get your it's a good signal. It's like, get your it's a good signal. It's like, get your hand off that stove. So many of our hand off that stove. So many of our hand off that stove. So many of our negative emotions are doing that for us. negative emotions are doing that for us. negative emotions are doing that for us. We should be so grateful for them We should be so grateful for them We should be so grateful for them because they're helping us, right? If because they're helping us, right? If because they're helping us, right? If I'm feeling lonely, that's a signal that I'm feeling lonely, that's a signal that I'm feeling lonely, that's a signal that I need to change my behavior. I need to I need to change my behavior. I need to I need to change my behavior. I need to seek out some social connection. If I'm seek out some social connection. If I'm seek out some social connection. If I'm feeling sad, that's a signal that feeling sad, that's a signal that feeling sad, that's a signal that something's a miss, right? I might need something's a miss, right? I might need something's a miss, right? I might need more positive things in my life. A big more positive things in my life. A big more positive things in my life. A big one for me that I notice myself is if one for me that I notice myself is if one for me that I notice myself is if I'm feeling overwhelmed, that means I I'm feeling overwhelmed, that means I I'm feeling overwhelmed, that means I have way too much on my plate, right? I have way too much on my plate, right? I have way too much on my plate, right? I have to make some changes. And those are have to make some changes. And those are have to make some changes. And those are signals just like the signal we get from signals just like the signal we get from signals just like the signal we get from a hand on a hot stove that to get back a hand on a hot stove that to get back a hand on a hot stove that to get back to equilibrium, we need to make some to equilibrium, we need to make some to equilibrium, we need to make some changes. And it would be sad to get rid changes. And it would be sad to get rid changes. And it would be sad to get rid of those. If you only had good vibes of those. If you only had good vibes of those. If you only had good vibes only, I feel like you couldn't live a only, I feel like you couldn't live a only, I feel like you couldn't live a positive life because you'd be missing positive life because you'd be missing positive life because you'd be missing out on these cues about where you're out on these cues about where you're out on these cues about where you're going off track and what you should going off track and what you should going off track and what you should change. Do you worry if this idea of change. Do you worry if this idea of change. Do you worry if this idea of pursuing happiness, always striving for pursuing happiness, always striving for pursuing happiness, always striving for more actually creates unhappiness? more actually creates unhappiness? more actually creates unhappiness? >> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think this >> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think this >> Oh, definitely. Yeah, I think this there's really lovely research on this there's really lovely research on this there's really lovely research on this from the researcher Iris mouse at the from the researcher Iris mouse at the from the researcher Iris mouse at the University of California at Berkeley. Um University of California at Berkeley. Um University of California at Berkeley. Um she actually has a paper about the she actually has a paper about the she actually has a paper about the paradox of the pursuit of happiness that paradox of the pursuit of happiness that paradox of the pursuit of happiness that the simple act of pursuing happiness the simple act of pursuing happiness the simple act of pursuing happiness often makes us feel unhappy. But that often makes us feel unhappy. But that often makes us feel unhappy. But that gets back to this this fact that we just gets back to this this fact that we just gets back to this this fact that we just don't get happiness right. When we think don't get happiness right. When we think don't get happiness right. When we think about the pursuit of happiness, we think about the pursuit of happiness, we think about the pursuit of happiness, we think hedonic stuff. We think good vibes only.

hedonic stuff. We think good vibes only. hedonic stuff. We think good vibes only. And whenever we're off track with that, And whenever we're off track with that, And whenever we're off track with that, we think something's gone wrong. And we think something's gone wrong. And we think something's gone wrong. And when things go wrong, we tend to have a when things go wrong, we tend to have a when things go wrong, we tend to have a different set of emotions. What nerdy different set of emotions. What nerdy different set of emotions. What nerdy psychologists like me call meta psychologists like me call meta psychologists like me call meta emotions. Those are emotions about emotions. Those are emotions about emotions. Those are emotions about emotions, right? You know, so I don't emotions, right? You know, so I don't emotions, right? You know, so I don't know, you go you go on some really cool know, you go you go on some really cool know, you go you go on some really cool trip to Rio di Janeiro and you're like, trip to Rio di Janeiro and you're like, trip to Rio di Janeiro and you're like, "Ah, I'm annoyed with the sand. Like, "Ah, I'm annoyed with the sand. Like, "Ah, I'm annoyed with the sand. Like, it's a little too sunny. I'm not feeling it's a little too sunny. I'm not feeling it's a little too sunny. I'm not feeling happy." That's emotion number one. But happy." That's emotion number one. But happy." That's emotion number one. But then the meta emotions come in. You're then the meta emotions come in. You're then the meta emotions come in. You're ashamed. How can I be in Rio Rio di ashamed. How can I be in Rio Rio di ashamed. How can I be in Rio Rio di Janeiro and not feeling happy? You're Janeiro and not feeling happy? You're Janeiro and not feeling happy? You're disappointed like, "Oh, I spent all this disappointed like, "Oh, I spent all this disappointed like, "Oh, I spent all this money on this stuff." You're judging money on this stuff." You're judging money on this stuff." You're judging yourself. What's wrong with me that I yourself. What's wrong with me that I yourself. What's wrong with me that I don't feel so good? Those emotions come don't feel so good? Those emotions come don't feel so good? Those emotions come up whenever we feel like we're off the up whenever we feel like we're off the up whenever we feel like we're off the path of pursuit of happiness. And the path of pursuit of happiness. And the path of pursuit of happiness. And the problem is if we're really into pursuing problem is if we're really into pursuing problem is if we're really into pursuing it, this is what Iris's data show. The it, this is what Iris's data show. The it, this is what Iris's data show. The more you value happiness, the more you more you value happiness, the more you more you value happiness, the more you think you're supposed to get there, the think you're supposed to get there, the think you're supposed to get there, the more these negative meta emotions come more these negative meta emotions come more these negative meta emotions come up whenever you feel like you're off up whenever you feel like you're off up whenever you feel like you're off track. So, yeah, it really does seem track. So, yeah, it really does seem track. So, yeah, it really does seem empirically that it's a paradox, right? empirically that it's a paradox, right? empirically that it's a paradox, right? that the more we go after at least one that the more we go after at least one that the more we go after at least one kind of happiness, you know, the kind of kind of happiness, you know, the kind of kind of happiness, you know, the kind of hedonic in the- moment happiness, the hedonic in the- moment happiness, the hedonic in the- moment happiness, the more we think we're supposed to pursue more we think we're supposed to pursue more we think we're supposed to pursue that and something's really off if we that and something's really off if we that and something's really off if we haven't. What What's going on? Good haven't. What What's going on? Good haven't. What What's going on? Good vibes only. The more we kind of don't vibes only. The more we kind of don't vibes only. The more we kind of don't ever get there. Key though is that the ever get there. Key though is that the ever get there. Key though is that the paradox doesn't come up as much if paradox doesn't come up as much if paradox doesn't come up as much if you're pursuing the healthier kind of you're pursuing the healthier kind of you're pursuing the healthier kind of happiness. You know, when I was thinking happiness. You know, when I was thinking happiness. You know, when I was thinking about this initially, I was like, uh, about this initially, I was like, uh, about this initially, I was like, uh, this is such a modern idea, this idea of this is such a modern idea, this idea of this is such a modern idea, this idea of happiness. you know, this pursuit of happiness. you know, this pursuit of happiness. you know, this pursuit of happiness is something that I'm sure happiness is something that I'm sure happiness is something that I'm sure they didn't care about in the Middle they didn't care about in the Middle they didn't care about in the Middle Ages when they were struggling to eat.

Ages when they were struggling to eat. Ages when they were struggling to eat. They weren't worried about, you know, They weren't worried about, you know, They weren't worried about, you know, maximizing their sense of joy and maximizing their sense of joy and maximizing their sense of joy and aspiration to live the good life. And aspiration to live the good life. And aspiration to live the good life. And then I was sort of struck by the fact then I was sort of struck by the fact then I was sort of struck by the fact that this has been um something very that this has been um something very that this has been um something very human for a very long time. human for a very long time. human for a very long time. >> Yeah. I mean, I think we have cared >> Yeah. I mean, I think we have cared >> Yeah. I mean, I think we have cared about happiness for as long as we've about happiness for as long as we've about happiness for as long as we've been humans and could reflect on our own been humans and could reflect on our own been humans and could reflect on our own emotions and reflect on the state of emotions and reflect on the state of emotions and reflect on the state of being a human and what it means to be a being a human and what it means to be a being a human and what it means to be a human. But I think cultures really shift human. But I think cultures really shift human. But I think cultures really shift how we think about what we should be how we think about what we should be how we think about what we should be doing, right? So I think if you look at doing, right? So I think if you look at doing, right? So I think if you look at most of human history, sorry, I'm going most of human history, sorry, I'm going most of human history, sorry, I'm going to nerd out and do like a happiness to nerd out and do like a happiness to nerd out and do like a happiness history lesson. Okay, this is great. Um, history lesson. Okay, this is great. Um, history lesson. Okay, this is great. Um, if you look at most of human history, we if you look at most of human history, we if you look at most of human history, we just didn't think it was possible to just didn't think it was possible to just didn't think it was possible to pursue happiness. So the word happiness pursue happiness. So the word happiness pursue happiness. So the word happiness comes from the cognate of luck. It's comes from the cognate of luck. It's comes from the cognate of luck. It's hap, right? Like happen stance, you hap, right? Like happen stance, you hap, right? Like happen stance, you know? I think even Shakespeare said hap know? I think even Shakespeare said hap know? I think even Shakespeare said hap what hap may or something like that, what hap may or something like that, what hap may or something like that, right? It's like it's just luck. You right? It's like it's just luck. You right? It's like it's just luck. You might get a boulder might fall on your might get a boulder might fall on your might get a boulder might fall on your head or it might not but you can't head or it might not but you can't head or it might not but you can't control that, right? That is for most of control that, right? That is for most of control that, right? That is for most of human history how we thought about human history how we thought about human history how we thought about happiness. Like it's good if you get it happiness. Like it's good if you get it happiness. Like it's good if you get it but like you can't do anything about it.

but like you can't do anything about it. but like you can't do anything about it. Then we get to the classic Greeks, Then we get to the classic Greeks, Then we get to the classic Greeks, right? Folks like Aristotle and Stoics right? Folks like Aristotle and Stoics right? Folks like Aristotle and Stoics and so on and they had a slightly and so on and they had a slightly and so on and they had a slightly different view. They they also thought, different view. They they also thought, different view. They they also thought, you know, it's it's got a lot to do with you know, it's it's got a lot to do with you know, it's it's got a lot to do with luck and so on. But you can actually go luck and so on. But you can actually go luck and so on. But you can actually go for it. If you try to build up your for it. If you try to build up your for it. If you try to build up your virtue, if you try to go for that virtue, if you try to go for that virtue, if you try to go for that udeimmonic happiness, then you will get udeimmonic happiness, then you will get udeimmonic happiness, then you will get closer to it. You might not, you might closer to it. You might not, you might closer to it. You might not, you might not get there, right? The happi happy not get there, right? The happi happy not get there, right? The happi happy few, but you can try, right? And I think few, but you can try, right? And I think few, but you can try, right? And I think we had that classic notion for a long we had that classic notion for a long we had that classic notion for a long time until we get to more of the modern time until we get to more of the modern time until we get to more of the modern day until we get to the 18th century. day until we get to the 18th century. day until we get to the 18th century. And that was where a few things started And that was where a few things started And that was where a few things started to change in these really interesting to change in these really interesting to change in these really interesting ways, right? One is that this is the ways, right? One is that this is the ways, right? One is that this is the first time where we're not having all first time where we're not having all first time where we're not having all the like middle ages stuff that you were the like middle ages stuff that you were the like middle ages stuff that you were just talking about, right? There's less just talking about, right? There's less just talking about, right? There's less 18th century again getting a little less 18th century again getting a little less 18th century again getting a little less pestilence, a little less terrible stuff pestilence, a little less terrible stuff pestilence, a little less terrible stuff going on. Life is starting to feel more going on. Life is starting to feel more going on. Life is starting to feel more controllable, like even in really stupid controllable, like even in really stupid controllable, like even in really stupid ways, right? They could control the ways, right? They could control the ways, right? They could control the smoke that was coming out of their smoke that was coming out of their smoke that was coming out of their chimneys. They made bedding that was chimneys. They made bedding that was chimneys. They made bedding that was like a little bit softer. They had like a little bit softer. They had like a little bit softer. They had better lighting in their houses, right? better lighting in their houses, right? better lighting in their houses, right? It felt like h better food, right? It it It felt like h better food, right? It it It felt like h better food, right? It it started to feel like, oh, I can it's started to feel like, oh, I can it's started to feel like, oh, I can it's reasonable to think I might be able to reasonable to think I might be able to reasonable to think I might be able to control my hedonic happiness because control my hedonic happiness because control my hedonic happiness because I've seen some evidence that my actions I've seen some evidence that my actions I've seen some evidence that my actions can do that. And at the same time, you can do that. And at the same time, you can do that. And at the same time, you get cultural changes that fit with this, get cultural changes that fit with this, get cultural changes that fit with this, right? This is around the sciency time right? This is around the sciency time right? This is around the sciency time of like Isaac Newton and others where of like Isaac Newton and others where of like Isaac Newton and others where we're learning like objects just move in we're learning like objects just move in we're learning like objects just move in certain ways. You know, gravity pushes certain ways. You know, gravity pushes certain ways. You know, gravity pushes objects towards one another. Scientists objects towards one another. Scientists objects towards one another. Scientists are also starting to think, well, what are also starting to think, well, what are also starting to think, well, what does that mean for humans? Oh, we're we does that mean for humans? Oh, we're we does that mean for humans? Oh, we're we move towards pleasure and away from move towards pleasure and away from move towards pleasure and away from pain. These are like Jeremy Bentham type pain. These are like Jeremy Bentham type pain. These are like Jeremy Bentham type arguments about this stuff. So, the idea

arguments about this stuff. So, the idea arguments about this stuff. So, the idea is like, oh, we're built to seek out is like, oh, we're built to seek out is like, oh, we're built to seek out pleasure. Like this this is a thing we pleasure. Like this this is a thing we pleasure. Like this this is a thing we should go for. So, yeah. So, I think should go for. So, yeah. So, I think should go for. So, yeah. So, I think every generation has wanted to feel every generation has wanted to feel every generation has wanted to feel happy. I mean I think you know Bentham happy. I mean I think you know Bentham happy. I mean I think you know Bentham was right we are built to pursu pursue was right we are built to pursu pursue was right we are built to pursu pursue pleasure and avoid pain but the cultural pleasure and avoid pain but the cultural pleasure and avoid pain but the cultural context in which we think about that can context in which we think about that can context in which we think about that can be different over time. We are in the be different over time. We are in the be different over time. We are in the notion of like looks maxing and like you notion of like looks maxing and like you notion of like looks maxing and like you know like get like getting all your know like get like getting all your know like get like getting all your pleasure right now and you know spa pleasure right now and you know spa pleasure right now and you know spa pedicures and this kind of stuff. I pedicures and this kind of stuff. I pedicures and this kind of stuff. I think we really just definitionally think we really just definitionally think we really just definitionally think of happiness as about me me and so think of happiness as about me me and so think of happiness as about me me and so much of the science and so much of this much of the science and so much of this much of the science and so much of this classic wisdom tells us no it's not like classic wisdom tells us no it's not like classic wisdom tells us no it's not like that's the way you get off track that's that's the way you get off track that's that's the way you get off track that's the way you pursue it in the wrong way. the way you pursue it in the wrong way. the way you pursue it in the wrong way. All right. So, that brings us to what we All right. So, that brings us to what we All right. So, that brings us to what we deal with today. And deal with today. And deal with today. And >> yes, >> yes, >> yes, >> I really want to focus on social >> I really want to focus on social >> I really want to focus on social connection because the pandemic, I connection because the pandemic, I connection because the pandemic, I think, showed us that if you don't have think, showed us that if you don't have think, showed us that if you don't have it, you're really really going to suffer it, you're really really going to suffer it, you're really really going to suffer in ways that were uh perhaps in ways that were uh perhaps in ways that were uh perhaps not clear. And I not clear. And I not clear. And I have been trying to figure out what have been trying to figure out what have been trying to figure out what happened to me during that period.

happened to me during that period. happened to me during that period. Honestly. Honestly. Honestly. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> I became a lot more insular and I had to >> I became a lot more insular and I had to >> I became a lot more insular and I had to sort of relearn how to make those social sort of relearn how to make those social sort of relearn how to make those social connections after that period. connections after that period. connections after that period. Am I typical? Yeah. No studies bear this Am I typical? Yeah. No studies bear this Am I typical? Yeah. No studies bear this out. Pretty much every survey I know of out. Pretty much every survey I know of out. Pretty much every survey I know of that asked people about COVID like was that asked people about COVID like was that asked people about COVID like was it smooth sailing? When you jump back it smooth sailing? When you jump back it smooth sailing? When you jump back into it, people are like no. Right. into it, people are like no. Right. into it, people are like no. Right. There was some friction to this. We kind There was some friction to this. We kind There was some friction to this. We kind of got out of practice from it. And that of got out of practice from it. And that of got out of practice from it. And that makes sense because even though we're makes sense because even though we're makes sense because even though we're built to be social, right? Even though built to be social, right? Even though built to be social, right? Even though in some sense this should be easy, in some sense this should be easy, in some sense this should be easy, social connection is hard, right? social connection is hard, right? social connection is hard, right? There's another mind there that you're There's another mind there that you're There's another mind there that you're trying to like navigate and predict and trying to like navigate and predict and trying to like navigate and predict and you don't often get direct access to it. you don't often get direct access to it. you don't often get direct access to it. So it is clunky and it does have some So it is clunky and it does have some So it is clunky and it does have some friction. Um that friction is one of the friction. Um that friction is one of the friction. Um that friction is one of the reasons that you know as a professor reasons that you know as a professor reasons that you know as a professor whenever I go into the dining hall I'm whenever I go into the dining hall I'm whenever I go into the dining hall I'm shocked at how few of my students are shocked at how few of my students are shocked at how few of my students are just talking to one another. This is just talking to one another. This is just talking to one another. This is something professors remark about now something professors remark about now something professors remark about now when I walk into my classroom say a when I walk into my classroom say a when I walk into my classroom say a seminar room where all my students are seminar room where all my students are seminar room where all my students are sitting around a table. not chatting sitting around a table. not chatting sitting around a table. not chatting with one another. They're all on a with one another. They're all on a with one another. They're all on a screen looking at it. And I think the screen looking at it. And I think the screen looking at it. And I think the problem for them is there's like there's problem for them is there's like there's problem for them is there's like there's a little bit of friction. Like it's hard a little bit of friction. Like it's hard a little bit of friction. Like it's hard to get that going, right? And when you to get that going, right? And when you to get that going, right? And when you didn't do it for, you know, a year, a didn't do it for, you know, a year, a didn't do it for, you know, a year, a year and a half, however long it was, year and a half, however long it was, year and a half, however long it was, yeah, it got harder. You were simply out yeah, it got harder. You were simply out yeah, it got harder. You were simply out of practice from it. And I actually of practice from it. And I actually of practice from it. And I actually think that this is one of the reasons think that this is one of the reasons think that this is one of the reasons that our young people, I mentioned, my that our young people, I mentioned, my that our young people, I mentioned, my students are so lonely right now is I students are so lonely right now is I students are so lonely right now is I think just like over their developmental think just like over their developmental think just like over their developmental time, they just had less practice at it.

time, they just had less practice at it. time, they just had less practice at it. like the modern world is taking away all like the modern world is taking away all like the modern world is taking away all these subtle ways that we talk to one these subtle ways that we talk to one these subtle ways that we talk to one another. One of my favorite articles another. One of my favorite articles another. One of my favorite articles that looked at this was by the talking that looked at this was by the talking that looked at this was by the talking heads uh frontman David Burn. He wrote heads uh frontman David Burn. He wrote heads uh frontman David Burn. He wrote this article kind of preiently. I think this article kind of preiently. I think this article kind of preiently. I think this is back in the 2010s called this is back in the 2010s called this is back in the 2010s called eliminating the human. And his idea was eliminating the human. And his idea was eliminating the human. And his idea was like if you look at what pretty much like if you look at what pretty much like if you look at what pretty much every technology has done, it's taken every technology has done, it's taken every technology has done, it's taken away the human from something as simple away the human from something as simple away the human from something as simple as like we go to the ATM now. We don't as like we go to the ATM now. We don't as like we go to the ATM now. We don't have to talk to a teller. We don't go to have to talk to a teller. We don't go to have to talk to a teller. We don't go to a record store and talk with people a record store and talk with people a record store and talk with people about records to get our music. We just about records to get our music. We just about records to get our music. We just have an algorithm deliver it to us. In have an algorithm deliver it to us. In have an algorithm deliver it to us. In all these subtle ways, our technologies all these subtle ways, our technologies all these subtle ways, our technologies are making it so that we don't need to are making it so that we don't need to are making it so that we don't need to like talk to regular people. And I think like talk to regular people. And I think like talk to regular people. And I think we forget like the subtle ways that this we forget like the subtle ways that this we forget like the subtle ways that this keeps coming up. keeps coming up. keeps coming up. >> What do you think AI is going to do? >> What do you think AI is going to do? >> What do you think AI is going to do? Because they really is trying to Because they really is trying to Because they really is trying to eliminate the human. eliminate the human. eliminate the human. >> Yeah. No, it's going to get way worse >> Yeah. No, it's going to get way worse >> Yeah. No, it's going to get way worse because the friction of talking to an because the friction of talking to an because the friction of talking to an LLM, I mean, we're already seeing this, LLM, I mean, we're already seeing this, LLM, I mean, we're already seeing this, is isn't there, right? The LLM is there is isn't there, right? The LLM is there is isn't there, right? The LLM is there whenever you want to talk, right? If whenever you want to talk, right? If whenever you want to talk, right? If you're feeling up at 2 in the morning, you're feeling up at 2 in the morning, you're feeling up at 2 in the morning, you can say that the LLM is really not you can say that the LLM is really not you can say that the LLM is really not judgy. You know, if anything, the judgy. You know, if anything, the judgy. You know, if anything, the current iterations when you and I are current iterations when you and I are current iterations when you and I are having this conversation, we're learning having this conversation, we're learning having this conversation, we're learning are too sick of, right? They can almost are too sick of, right? They can almost are too sick of, right? They can almost create cognitive delusions in people.

create cognitive delusions in people. create cognitive delusions in people. But yet, that is what our young people But yet, that is what our young people But yet, that is what our young people are turning to. Um, I just had Gene are turning to. Um, I just had Gene are turning to. Um, I just had Gene Twangi, the kind of technology Twangi, the kind of technology Twangi, the kind of technology specialist on our podcast who's talked a specialist on our podcast who's talked a specialist on our podcast who's talked a lot about phones, and she's really lot about phones, and she's really lot about phones, and she's really shifting to the dangers of AI. One of shifting to the dangers of AI. One of shifting to the dangers of AI. One of her data points is just how many young her data points is just how many young her data points is just how many young people, and we're talking like 12, 13 people, and we're talking like 12, 13 people, and we're talking like 12, 13 year olds, are having their first year olds, are having their first year olds, are having their first relationship with an LLM. Like their relationship with an LLM. Like their relationship with an LLM. Like their first boyfriend and girlfriend is a LLM, first boyfriend and girlfriend is a LLM, first boyfriend and girlfriend is a LLM, right? And so what's the friction going right? And so what's the friction going right? And so what's the friction going to look like when they have to ask a to look like when they have to ask a to look like when they have to ask a real human out on a date, navigate like real human out on a date, navigate like real human out on a date, navigate like a sexual consent conversation with a a sexual consent conversation with a a sexual consent conversation with a real other human with preferences and so real other human with preferences and so real other human with preferences and so on. Um, yeah, I think AI is going to on. Um, yeah, I think AI is going to on. Um, yeah, I think AI is going to change this in ways that are likely to change this in ways that are likely to change this in ways that are likely to make it worse. It creates this cycle make it worse. It creates this cycle make it worse. It creates this cycle where it becomes harder and harder to where it becomes harder and harder to where it becomes harder and harder to overcome that little friction to talk to overcome that little friction to talk to overcome that little friction to talk to someone. someone. someone. >> Yeah. I mean, my daughter asked me >> Yeah. I mean, my daughter asked me >> Yeah. I mean, my daughter asked me recently, "How do you start a recently, "How do you start a recently, "How do you start a conversation with strangers?" Um, how do conversation with strangers?" Um, how do conversation with strangers?" Um, how do you go up to someone that you don't know you go up to someone that you don't know you go up to someone that you don't know and just start to talk to them? And of and just start to talk to them? And of and just start to talk to them? And of course, that's a function of their age course, that's a function of their age course, that's a function of their age and that's totally normal. I mean, and that's totally normal. I mean, and that's totally normal. I mean, they're learning how to interact in the they're learning how to interact in the they're learning how to interact in the world. But I also realize like how much world. But I also realize like how much world. But I also realize like how much harder it is harder it is harder it is >> totally >> totally >> totally >> to do that nowadays because you're not >> to do that nowadays because you're not >> to do that nowadays because you're not only interrupting maybe a social only interrupting maybe a social only interrupting maybe a social dynamic, you're also interrupting dynamic, you're also interrupting dynamic, you're also interrupting people's, people's, people's, >> you know, interaction with their >> you know, interaction with their >> you know, interaction with their devices, devices, devices, >> phone. Um and and I noticed it in my own >> phone. Um and and I noticed it in my own >> phone. Um and and I noticed it in my own family because she comes up to me and family because she comes up to me and family because she comes up to me and I'm on my phone and I feel annoyed I'm on my phone and I feel annoyed I'm on my phone and I feel annoyed sometime like I'm in the middle of sometime like I'm in the middle of sometime like I'm in the middle of reading. Can't you see? Yeah. And so all reading. Can't you see? Yeah. And so all reading. Can't you see? Yeah. And so all these cues that it's appropriate to talk these cues that it's appropriate to talk these cues that it's appropriate to talk to someone, right? That they're making

to someone, right? That they're making to someone, right? That they're making eye contact with you. They're smiling eye contact with you. They're smiling eye contact with you. They're smiling with you. That doesn't happen when your with you. That doesn't happen when your with you. That doesn't happen when your eyes are glued to your phone. And eyes are glued to your phone. And eyes are glued to your phone. And there's such interesting research on there's such interesting research on there's such interesting research on this. Liz Dunn, who's a professor at the this. Liz Dunn, who's a professor at the this. Liz Dunn, who's a professor at the University of British Columbia, has this University of British Columbia, has this University of British Columbia, has this study I love um where she puts people in study I love um where she puts people in study I love um where she puts people in a waiting room, strangers in a waiting a waiting room, strangers in a waiting a waiting room, strangers in a waiting room, and just either has them have room, and just either has them have room, and just either has them have access to their phones or not. And she access to their phones or not. And she access to their phones or not. And she just measures a really creative just measures a really creative just measures a really creative dependent variable which is how often dependent variable which is how often dependent variable which is how often they spontaneously smile at each other. they spontaneously smile at each other. they spontaneously smile at each other. You sitting there, you just look over You sitting there, you just look over You sitting there, you just look over and smile. 30% decrease in smiling. and smile. 30% decrease in smiling. and smile. 30% decrease in smiling. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> Yes. Multiply that by what's happening >> Yes. Multiply that by what's happening >> Yes. Multiply that by what's happening on the streets of New York, right? on the streets of New York, right? on the streets of New York, right? What's happening in every waiting room? What's happening in every waiting room? What's happening in every waiting room? >> Let's not use New York. New York people >> Let's not use New York. New York people >> Let's not use New York. New York people are never smiling. are never smiling. are never smiling. >> What's happening in Boston? Happen >> What's happening in Boston? Happen >> What's happening in Boston? Happen happens in Boston, too. I mean, what's happens in Boston, too. I mean, what's happens in Boston, too. I mean, what's what's happening at your own dinner what's happening at your own dinner what's happening at your own dinner table, right? Where your daughter is table, right? Where your daughter is table, right? Where your daughter is about to tell you something about your about to tell you something about your about to tell you something about your day, but your eyes are glued to your day, but your eyes are glued to your day, but your eyes are glued to your phone, right? And phone, right? And phone, right? And >> she talks about it all the time. >> she talks about it all the time. >> she talks about it all the time. >> Yeah. and you just don't notice, right? >> Yeah. and you just don't notice, right? >> Yeah. and you just don't notice, right? Um and and again, you know, we're not Um and and again, you know, we're not Um and and again, you know, we're not like harshing on people for their like harshing on people for their like harshing on people for their phones. Like they're built to be phones. Like they're built to be phones. Like they're built to be interesting. They're built to have every interesting. They're built to have every interesting. They're built to have every interesting thing in the history of the interesting thing in the history of the interesting thing in the history of the universe, but the consequence of our universe, but the consequence of our universe, but the consequence of our eyeballs being glued to them is really eyeballs being glued to them is really eyeballs being glued to them is really dangerous, dangerous for the social dangerous, dangerous for the social dangerous, dangerous for the social connections we care about most. I mean connections we care about most. I mean connections we care about most. I mean this speaks to the wider situation in this speaks to the wider situation in this speaks to the wider situation in which we find ourselves because I was which we find ourselves because I was which we find ourselves because I was looking at some data from 2012 to now looking at some data from 2012 to now looking at some data from 2012 to now and there was a recent report by the and there was a recent report by the and there was a recent report by the American Enterprise Institute that shows American Enterprise Institute that shows American Enterprise Institute that shows that across all age groups people are that across all age groups people are that across all age groups people are now socializing with their neighbors now socializing with their neighbors now socializing with their neighbors less less less and the authors blame a lot of things and the authors blame a lot of things and the authors blame a lot of things like technology political polarization like technology political polarization like technology political polarization post-pandemic issues post-pandemic issues post-pandemic issues but do you think we've just become

but do you think we've just become but do you think we've just become sort of as a nation indoor cats instead sort of as a nation indoor cats instead sort of as a nation indoor cats instead of outdoor cats. Like we just of outdoor cats. Like we just of outdoor cats. Like we just >> have lost the ability to roam in the >> have lost the ability to roam in the >> have lost the ability to roam in the wild. wild. wild. >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think there's >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think there's >> Yeah. I mean, I think I think there's something to that. And this is something something to that. And this is something something to that. And this is something that scholars have been worried about that scholars have been worried about that scholars have been worried about for a while, right? Rewind the late 90s, for a while, right? Rewind the late 90s, for a while, right? Rewind the late 90s, early 2000s, and you have Robert early 2000s, and you have Robert early 2000s, and you have Robert Putnham's like seinal book on bowling Putnham's like seinal book on bowling Putnham's like seinal book on bowling alone, right? where he argued like back alone, right? where he argued like back alone, right? where he argued like back in the day we'd go out to bowling alleys in the day we'd go out to bowling alleys in the day we'd go out to bowling alleys and we people would bowl with their and we people would bowl with their and we people would bowl with their friends and bowl together and bowl in friends and bowl together and bowl in friends and bowl together and bowl in leagues. nowadays or nowadays being you leagues. nowadays or nowadays being you leagues. nowadays or nowadays being you know early 2000s nowadays people just go know early 2000s nowadays people just go know early 2000s nowadays people just go and they bowl alone right they're not and they bowl alone right they're not and they bowl alone right they're not part of a league they're not talking to part of a league they're not talking to part of a league they're not talking to their neighbors they just talk to their their neighbors they just talk to their their neighbors they just talk to their immediate friends I talked with with immediate friends I talked with with immediate friends I talked with with Robert Putnham for my podcast you know Robert Putnham for my podcast you know Robert Putnham for my podcast you know and he had this interesting idea of like and he had this interesting idea of like and he had this interesting idea of like you know I wrote that before like the you know I wrote that before like the you know I wrote that before like the internet was like in baby days like we internet was like in baby days like we internet was like in baby days like we didn't know that like viral Tik Tok didn't know that like viral Tik Tok didn't know that like viral Tik Tok videos were coming right we didn't know videos were coming right we didn't know videos were coming right we didn't know that there was television which he was that there was television which he was that there was television which he was worried about right that was one of the worried about right that was one of the worried about right that was one of the factors he talked about but we didn't factors he talked about but we didn't factors he talked about but we didn't know there was going to be like you know know there was going to be like you know know there was going to be like you know streaming services that picked algorithm streaming services that picked algorithm streaming services that picked algorithm comes to get you exactly the best comes to get you exactly the best comes to get you exactly the best documentary that only you Lulu would documentary that only you Lulu would documentary that only you Lulu would love, right? We're fighting against love, right? We're fighting against love, right? We're fighting against technology that makes stuff interesting technology that makes stuff interesting technology that makes stuff interesting and attractive like there are whole and attractive like there are whole and attractive like there are whole companies that are built to keep our companies that are built to keep our companies that are built to keep our eyeballs on that stuff. Of course, eyeballs on that stuff. Of course, eyeballs on that stuff. Of course, regular social connection with my friend regular social connection with my friend regular social connection with my friend at the bowling alley might suffer like at the bowling alley might suffer like at the bowling alley might suffer like in in the face of that kind of in in the face of that kind of in in the face of that kind of competition.

competition. competition. >> Yeah. I also spoke to Robert Putnham and >> Yeah. I also spoke to Robert Putnham and >> Yeah. I also spoke to Robert Putnham and his prescription was to put it, you his prescription was to put it, you his prescription was to put it, you know, succinctly, it's join a club, know, succinctly, it's join a club, know, succinctly, it's join a club, right? Um, but I think a lot of people right? Um, but I think a lot of people right? Um, but I think a lot of people feel like they don't have time for that feel like they don't have time for that feel like they don't have time for that in between work and caretaking. They in between work and caretaking. They in between work and caretaking. They don't feel like they've got time anymore don't feel like they've got time anymore don't feel like they've got time anymore for those kinds of labor intensive for those kinds of labor intensive for those kinds of labor intensive social connections. social connections. social connections. >> Yeah. And this this is something that >> Yeah. And this this is something that >> Yeah. And this this is something that social scientists are also really clued social scientists are also really clued social scientists are also really clued into. I think one of the coolest bits of into. I think one of the coolest bits of into. I think one of the coolest bits of work coming out of modern day social work coming out of modern day social work coming out of modern day social science is on this concept of what's science is on this concept of what's science is on this concept of what's called time affluence. This is a lovely called time affluence. This is a lovely called time affluence. This is a lovely work by Ashley Williams at Harvard work by Ashley Williams at Harvard work by Ashley Williams at Harvard Business School. Time affluence is Business School. Time affluence is Business School. Time affluence is feeling wealthy in time. It's not how feeling wealthy in time. It's not how feeling wealthy in time. It's not how much objective time you have, but it's much objective time you have, but it's much objective time you have, but it's the subjective sense that you just have the subjective sense that you just have the subjective sense that you just have free time for yourself. It's the free time for yourself. It's the free time for yourself. It's the opposite of what so many people opposite of what so many people opposite of what so many people listening right now, I'm guessing, are listening right now, I'm guessing, are listening right now, I'm guessing, are experiencing, which is what's called experiencing, which is what's called experiencing, which is what's called time famine, where you're literally time famine, where you're literally time famine, where you're literally starving for time. And this term famine, starving for time. And this term famine, starving for time. And this term famine, I think, works physiologically because I think, works physiologically because I think, works physiologically because when we feel like we don't have a t when we feel like we don't have a t when we feel like we don't have a t enough time, it's almost like famine. It enough time, it's almost like famine. It enough time, it's almost like famine. It increases inflammation. It like does all increases inflammation. It like does all increases inflammation. It like does all these bad things to our body. But these bad things to our body. But these bad things to our body. But there's lots of work showing that it there's lots of work showing that it there's lots of work showing that it does bad things to our social does bad things to our social does bad things to our social connection. You just prime people to connection. You just prime people to connection. You just prime people to think about time. Psychologists do these think about time. Psychologists do these think about time. Psychologists do these in these cheesy ways where you in these cheesy ways where you in these cheesy ways where you unscramble words and all the words are unscramble words and all the words are unscramble words and all the words are about time. So, you're kind of about time. So, you're kind of about time. So, you're kind of implicitly thinking about time. And then implicitly thinking about time. And then implicitly thinking about time. And then you just look at like how many people you just look at like how many people you just look at like how many people folks talk to in a coffee shop and what folks talk to in a coffee shop and what folks talk to in a coffee shop and what you find is that they talk to less you find is that they talk to less you find is that they talk to less people when they're feeling like they people when they're feeling like they people when they're feeling like they don't have any time, right? And so I don't have any time, right? And so I don't have any time, right? And so I think this time crisis that of course think this time crisis that of course think this time crisis that of course it's worth saying is worse for it's worth saying is worse for it's worth saying is worse for marginalized people and people who are, marginalized people and people who are, marginalized people and people who are, you know, don't have enough income and

you know, don't have enough income and you know, don't have enough income and are worried about putting food on the are worried about putting food on the are worried about putting food on the table, that crisis is linked to the table, that crisis is linked to the table, that crisis is linked to the loneliness crisis. That crisis is linked loneliness crisis. That crisis is linked loneliness crisis. That crisis is linked to the fact that we don't have a lot of to the fact that we don't have a lot of to the fact that we don't have a lot of social connection. social connection. social connection. >> Let me ask you though, is the time >> Let me ask you though, is the time >> Let me ask you though, is the time crisis real? Because I sometimes think crisis real? Because I sometimes think crisis real? Because I sometimes think about where I choose to spend my time about where I choose to spend my time about where I choose to spend my time and it's not in making the effort to go and it's not in making the effort to go and it's not in making the effort to go out and join a club. It's in watching a out and join a club. It's in watching a out and join a club. It's in watching a Netflix show, Netflix show, Netflix show, >> sitting on my sofa or bedrotting as it's >> sitting on my sofa or bedrotting as it's >> sitting on my sofa or bedrotting as it's called on social media um as a way to called on social media um as a way to called on social media um as a way to quote unquote relax when it's really not quote unquote relax when it's really not quote unquote relax when it's really not that relaxing at all. And I always feel that relaxing at all. And I always feel that relaxing at all. And I always feel much better when I actually make the much better when I actually make the much better when I actually make the effort to go out and make a connection. effort to go out and make a connection. effort to go out and make a connection. But is is our time crisis real or is it But is is our time crisis real or is it But is is our time crisis real or is it manufactured just by our bad choices? manufactured just by our bad choices? manufactured just by our bad choices? >> Yeah, I'm going to say yes and no on >> Yeah, I'm going to say yes and no on >> Yeah, I'm going to say yes and no on that one. Right. Yes, in the sense that that one. Right. Yes, in the sense that that one. Right. Yes, in the sense that if you look to other countries that if you look to other countries that if you look to other countries that allow people to have a little bit more allow people to have a little bit more allow people to have a little bit more time affluence, I'm thinking of like the time affluence, I'm thinking of like the time affluence, I'm thinking of like the Netherlands, a lot of these countries Netherlands, a lot of these countries Netherlands, a lot of these countries that come up like very high on the that come up like very high on the that come up like very high on the happiness list in Scandinavia and so on.

happiness list in Scandinavia and so on. happiness list in Scandinavia and so on. they, you know, have a 35 hour work they, you know, have a 35 hour work they, you know, have a 35 hour work week, so people have time to do stuff week, so people have time to do stuff week, so people have time to do stuff with their friends. And what you find is with their friends. And what you find is with their friends. And what you find is that in those countries, Denmark in that in those countries, Denmark in that in those countries, Denmark in particular, club membership is huge, particular, club membership is huge, particular, club membership is huge, right? People have like, you know, right? People have like, you know, right? People have like, you know, they're a wrecket ball club, and I don't they're a wrecket ball club, and I don't they're a wrecket ball club, and I don't I don't think they bowl that much in I don't think they bowl that much in I don't think they bowl that much in Denmark. I don't know about bowling in Denmark. I don't know about bowling in Denmark. I don't know about bowling in Denmark, but the idea is like they're Denmark, but the idea is like they're Denmark, but the idea is like they're joining, they're joiners, right? They in joining, they're joiners, right? They in joining, they're joiners, right? They in part because they have time part because they have time part because they have time structurally, we've set it up so that structurally, we've set it up so that structurally, we've set it up so that they have time. I think that does they have time. I think that does they have time. I think that does matter. And I think if we set things up matter. And I think if we set things up matter. And I think if we set things up structurally to have more time in the structurally to have more time in the structurally to have more time in the US, maybe with a 4-day work week with US, maybe with a 4-day work week with US, maybe with a 4-day work week with people like Juliet Shore have shown us people like Juliet Shore have shown us people like Juliet Shore have shown us like, you know, by all accounts is like, you know, by all accounts is like, you know, by all accounts is happiness inducing, good for companies happiness inducing, good for companies happiness inducing, good for companies and so on. I think we could get there, and so on. I think we could get there, and so on. I think we could get there, right? So I think there there's right? So I think there there's right? So I think there there's something about the time crisis that is something about the time crisis that is something about the time crisis that is real. There are structural factors that real. There are structural factors that real. There are structural factors that are stealing our time. But if you look are stealing our time. But if you look are stealing our time. But if you look at the data, what you find is that at the data, what you find is that at the data, what you find is that people today, interestingly, actually people today, interestingly, actually people today, interestingly, actually have more free time than they did 15, 20 have more free time than they did 15, 20 have more free time than they did 15, 20 years ago. This is again Ashley Rowan's years ago. This is again Ashley Rowan's years ago. This is again Ashley Rowan's lovely work, right? Doesn't feel like lovely work, right? Doesn't feel like lovely work, right? Doesn't feel like it. it. it. >> Really does not. It >> Really does not. It >> Really does not. It >> really does not. And that and there's a >> really does not. And that and there's a >> really does not. And that and there's a reason it doesn't feel like it, which is reason it doesn't feel like it, which is reason it doesn't feel like it, which is that the amount of time we have, the the that the amount of time we have, the the that the amount of time we have, the the kind of blocks of time have shifted.

kind of blocks of time have shifted. kind of blocks of time have shifted. They've turned into what the the They've turned into what the the They've turned into what the the journalist Bridget Schult has called journalist Bridget Schult has called journalist Bridget Schult has called time confetti. These five minutes when time confetti. These five minutes when time confetti. These five minutes when you're, you know, if our if our you're, you know, if our if our you're, you know, if our if our conversation ends a little early or 10 conversation ends a little early or 10 conversation ends a little early or 10 minutes when your kid falls asleep a minutes when your kid falls asleep a minutes when your kid falls asleep a little unexpectedly quickly, you know, little unexpectedly quickly, you know, little unexpectedly quickly, you know, some work meeting ends. It's not a big some work meeting ends. It's not a big some work meeting ends. It's not a big chunk. It's little chunks. We have more chunk. It's little chunks. We have more chunk. It's little chunks. We have more time because we have more of those time because we have more of those time because we have more of those little chunks, but those little chunks little chunks, but those little chunks little chunks, but those little chunks don't feel like a lot of time. And so, don't feel like a lot of time. And so, don't feel like a lot of time. And so, what do we do with the little chunks? I what do we do with the little chunks? I what do we do with the little chunks? I know what I do before I knew about this know what I do before I knew about this know what I do before I knew about this research. I check my email. I scroll research. I check my email. I scroll research. I check my email. I scroll something quick on Instagram, right? something quick on Instagram, right? something quick on Instagram, right? Like, I look at something dumb on my Like, I look at something dumb on my Like, I look at something dumb on my phone, right? I don't do any of the phone, right? I don't do any of the phone, right? I don't do any of the things that would make me use those free things that would make me use those free things that would make me use those free 5 minutes, 10 minutes in like a positive 5 minutes, 10 minutes in like a positive 5 minutes, 10 minutes in like a positive way. And that gets to your point, right, way. And that gets to your point, right, way. And that gets to your point, right, which is that in practice, we do which is that in practice, we do which is that in practice, we do actually have free time. It's just like actually have free time. It's just like actually have free time. It's just like we're not using it that well. The other we're not using it that well. The other we're not using it that well. The other thing I hear a lot of people say about thing I hear a lot of people say about thing I hear a lot of people say about why they don't interact more socially is why they don't interact more socially is why they don't interact more socially is that they enjoy being alone. You know that they enjoy being alone. You know that they enjoy being alone. You know that, you know, they interact with that, you know, they interact with that, you know, they interact with people all day for work or they, you people all day for work or they, you people all day for work or they, you know, have to be in complicated social know, have to be in complicated social know, have to be in complicated social dynamics uh in in other spaces and so dynamics uh in in other spaces and so dynamics uh in in other spaces and so they just prefer their downtime to be they just prefer their downtime to be they just prefer their downtime to be more calm, more peaceful. I do sometimes more calm, more peaceful. I do sometimes more calm, more peaceful. I do sometimes wonder if people are just kidding wonder if people are just kidding wonder if people are just kidding themselves though and if that's not a themselves though and if that's not a themselves though and if that's not a real thing.

real thing. real thing. >> Yeah. Well, there's actually some lovely >> Yeah. Well, there's actually some lovely >> Yeah. Well, there's actually some lovely new work on this on this topic by new work on this on this topic by new work on this on this topic by Michaela Rodriguez, who I'm excited to Michaela Rodriguez, who I'm excited to Michaela Rodriguez, who I'm excited to say is going to be my new colleague at say is going to be my new colleague at say is going to be my new colleague at Yale. Her work focuses on this flip side Yale. Her work focuses on this flip side Yale. Her work focuses on this flip side of the loneliness crisis. You know, of the loneliness crisis. You know, of the loneliness crisis. You know, she's she's a little younger than I am. she's she's a little younger than I am. she's she's a little younger than I am. And she's like, you know, for my whole And she's like, you know, for my whole And she's like, you know, for my whole generation has spent all this time generation has spent all this time generation has spent all this time hearing about how bad loneliness is. hearing about how bad loneliness is. hearing about how bad loneliness is. It's so terrible. It's, you know, it's It's so terrible. It's, you know, it's It's so terrible. It's, you know, it's as bad as 15 cigarettes a day. And she's as bad as 15 cigarettes a day. And she's as bad as 15 cigarettes a day. And she's like, you know, two things there. One is like, you know, two things there. One is like, you know, two things there. One is like let's jump back to you know the like let's jump back to you know the like let's jump back to you know the classic you know Aristotle Buddhist text classic you know Aristotle Buddhist text classic you know Aristotle Buddhist text and so on. Those folks were into and so on. Those folks were into and so on. Those folks were into contemplation. They were into solitude. contemplation. They were into solitude. contemplation. They were into solitude. They were into the benefits of like They were into the benefits of like They were into the benefits of like having the time and the bandwidth to having the time and the bandwidth to having the time and the bandwidth to notice what's going on with yourself to notice what's going on with yourself to notice what's going on with yourself to think to be bored all these things. They think to be bored all these things. They think to be bored all these things. They knew that there were some benefits to knew that there were some benefits to knew that there were some benefits to being alone to alone time. Second thing being alone to alone time. Second thing being alone to alone time. Second thing she worried is like we know from so much she worried is like we know from so much she worried is like we know from so much literature in psychology that your literature in psychology that your literature in psychology that your perspective on things what psychologists perspective on things what psychologists perspective on things what psychologists call your conrle but this is basically call your conrle but this is basically call your conrle but this is basically how you frame something that affects how how you frame something that affects how how you frame something that affects how you experience it. You know if I'm a you experience it. You know if I'm a you experience it. You know if I'm a student who's like alone in the dining student who's like alone in the dining student who's like alone in the dining hall and I sit down and I think oh my hall and I sit down and I think oh my hall and I sit down and I think oh my gosh this is my me time. I can gosh this is my me time. I can gosh this is my me time. I can contemplate. I can think about what's contemplate. I can think about what's contemplate. I can think about what's going on right? I can kind of gather my going on right? I can kind of gather my going on right? I can kind of gather my thoughts before I go to class. That's thoughts before I go to class. That's thoughts before I go to class. That's great. But if you're seeped in great. But if you're seeped in great. But if you're seeped in everything that social scientists like everything that social scientists like everything that social scientists like me have been saying it's like this is me have been saying it's like this is me have been saying it's like this is the loneliness crisis. Look at you.

the loneliness crisis. Look at you. the loneliness crisis. Look at you. you're sitting in the dining all by you're sitting in the dining all by you're sitting in the dining all by yourself, you're going to feel crappy, yourself, you're going to feel crappy, yourself, you're going to feel crappy, right? You're going to judge yourself. right? You're going to judge yourself. right? You're going to judge yourself. You're going to have all those nasty You're going to have all those nasty You're going to have all those nasty meta emotions that we talked about meta emotions that we talked about meta emotions that we talked about before. And Michaela is like, there's before. And Michaela is like, there's before. And Michaela is like, there's something damaging about this narrative something damaging about this narrative something damaging about this narrative and we need to bring back the idea that and we need to bring back the idea that and we need to bring back the idea that contemplation might be helpful. And so, contemplation might be helpful. And so, contemplation might be helpful. And so, she's been doing all these studies first she's been doing all these studies first she's been doing all these studies first showing that yes, really hearing all showing that yes, really hearing all showing that yes, really hearing all this bad stuff about loneliness, having this bad stuff about loneliness, having this bad stuff about loneliness, having a negative conle about being alone makes a negative conle about being alone makes a negative conle about being alone makes it worse. But she also finds that if you it worse. But she also finds that if you it worse. But she also finds that if you have the right conrle, lots of benefits have the right conrle, lots of benefits have the right conrle, lots of benefits to solitude. great time to emotionally to solitude. great time to emotionally to solitude. great time to emotionally regulate, right? If you've been having a regulate, right? If you've been having a regulate, right? If you've been having a really terrible week at work, you kind really terrible week at work, you kind really terrible week at work, you kind of need that that night alone. Maybe not of need that that night alone. Maybe not of need that that night alone. Maybe not to kind of Netflix, but just to get your to kind of Netflix, but just to get your to kind of Netflix, but just to get your bandwidth about you, just to have a tea, bandwidth about you, just to have a tea, bandwidth about you, just to have a tea, sit with your cat, process, right? Like sit with your cat, process, right? Like sit with your cat, process, right? Like that helps you get back on track when that helps you get back on track when that helps you get back on track when you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious or you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious or you're feeling overwhelmed or anxious or so on. And so, I don't think we so on. And so, I don't think we so on. And so, I don't think we necessarily want to justify it fully, necessarily want to justify it fully, necessarily want to justify it fully, right? Pretty much every available study right? Pretty much every available study right? Pretty much every available study of happy people suggests that happy of happy people suggests that happy of happy people suggests that happy people have some strong relationships, people have some strong relationships, people have some strong relationships, but that doesn't mean be in social but that doesn't mean be in social but that doesn't mean be in social connection all the time. We can also connection all the time. We can also connection all the time. We can also enjoy and really positively use our enjoy and really positively use our enjoy and really positively use our alone time. So, I want to focus on young alone time. So, I want to focus on young alone time. So, I want to focus on young people because all the sort of happiness people because all the sort of happiness people because all the sort of happiness reports show that happiness for young reports show that happiness for young reports show that happiness for young people has really cratered. Is there people has really cratered. Is there people has really cratered. Is there something different going on with Gen Z?

something different going on with Gen Z? something different going on with Gen Z? I mean, is are they sort of a different I mean, is are they sort of a different I mean, is are they sort of a different generation or are they just facing a generation or are they just facing a generation or are they just facing a more extreme version than perhaps other more extreme version than perhaps other more extreme version than perhaps other younger generations have felt? younger generations have felt? younger generations have felt? >> Yeah, I think they're both different and >> Yeah, I think they're both different and >> Yeah, I think they're both different and not I feel like I'm hedging too much on not I feel like I'm hedging too much on not I feel like I'm hedging too much on your tough questions like yes and no, your tough questions like yes and no, your tough questions like yes and no, but no, yes and no. Right. One of my but no, yes and no. Right. One of my but no, yes and no. Right. One of my upcoming episodes of my podcast um has upcoming episodes of my podcast um has upcoming episodes of my podcast um has an interview with Alexis Reading who's a an interview with Alexis Reading who's a an interview with Alexis Reading who's a professor at the Harvard Graduate School professor at the Harvard Graduate School professor at the Harvard Graduate School of Education and she happened upon these of Education and she happened upon these of Education and she happened upon these very fascinating data sets of mental very fascinating data sets of mental very fascinating data sets of mental health interviews with Harvard students health interviews with Harvard students health interviews with Harvard students from the 1970s that were never from the 1970s that were never from the 1970s that were never published. They were actually just lying published. They were actually just lying published. They were actually just lying around in some attic somewhere and she around in some attic somewhere and she around in some attic somewhere and she found them and she went to these found them and she went to these found them and she went to these interesting interviews from the 1970s interesting interviews from the 1970s interesting interviews from the 1970s thinking the following thing. Oh my god, thinking the following thing. Oh my god, thinking the following thing. Oh my god, this is great. we have a treasure trove this is great. we have a treasure trove this is great. we have a treasure trove of direct evidence of how these kids of direct evidence of how these kids of direct evidence of how these kids from, you know, my parents' parents from, you know, my parents' parents from, you know, my parents' parents generation are different than the kids generation are different than the kids generation are different than the kids of today. And she went through and she of today. And she went through and she of today. And she went through and she analyzed it and she found there's analyzed it and she found there's analyzed it and she found there's absolutely no difference. absolutely no difference. absolutely no difference. >> What? >> What? >> What? >> And if you look at there's no >> And if you look at there's no >> And if you look at there's no difference. If you look at the things difference. If you look at the things difference. If you look at the things they're saying, they could be my Yale they're saying, they could be my Yale they're saying, they could be my Yale students in my office. Like there was students in my office. Like there was students in my office. Like there was one clip from her research which was a one clip from her research which was a one clip from her research which was a student who said, "Oh my god, like I student who said, "Oh my god, like I student who said, "Oh my god, like I just haven't studied for my orgo test. I just haven't studied for my orgo test. I just haven't studied for my orgo test. I don't know what I'm going to do. Like I don't know what I'm going to do. Like I don't know what I'm going to do. Like I just haven't been to class." and like just haven't been to class." and like just haven't been to class." and like the test is today. I'm just going to sit the test is today. I'm just going to sit the test is today. I'm just going to sit in bed and listen to music cuz I just I in bed and listen to music cuz I just I in bed and listen to music cuz I just I like can't get out of bed. And I was like can't get out of bed. And I was like can't get out of bed. And I was like that is literally bedrock. Another like that is literally bedrock. Another like that is literally bedrock. Another one was students saying like everyone in one was students saying like everyone in one was students saying like everyone in my generation just knows they're never my generation just knows they're never my generation just knows they're never going to get a job because of going to get a job because of going to get a job because of technology. And I was like oh my god technology. And I was like oh my god technology. And I was like oh my god this is like you know like many 50 years this is like you know like many 50 years this is like you know like many 50 years before LLMs. What's going on? And so

before LLMs. What's going on? And so before LLMs. What's going on? And so what's the story there? I think the what's the story there? I think the what's the story there? I think the story is a kind of yes and no story, story is a kind of yes and no story, story is a kind of yes and no story, right? It is the case that rates of right? It is the case that rates of right? It is the case that rates of depression, rates of anxiety, rates of depression, rates of anxiety, rates of depression, rates of anxiety, rates of suicidality, those things are higher now suicidality, those things are higher now suicidality, those things are higher now than they have been. The like true than they have been. The like true than they have been. The like true clinical track of student suffering that clinical track of student suffering that clinical track of student suffering that has gone up and we need to address that. has gone up and we need to address that. has gone up and we need to address that. We're not addressing it well right now. We're not addressing it well right now. We're not addressing it well right now. But the garden variety, feeling lonely, But the garden variety, feeling lonely, But the garden variety, feeling lonely, feeling scared about your future, like feeling scared about your future, like feeling scared about your future, like feeling worried about what's happening feeling worried about what's happening feeling worried about what's happening in classes. College students have been in classes. College students have been in classes. College students have been doing that for as long as there have doing that for as long as there have doing that for as long as there have been college students. And I think we as been college students. And I think we as been college students. And I think we as adults forget that. I want to take a adults forget that. I want to take a adults forget that. I want to take a little culpability here because I've little culpability here because I've little culpability here because I've seen you talk about something called seen you talk about something called seen you talk about something called lawnmower parents and I'd never heard of lawnmower parents and I'd never heard of lawnmower parents and I'd never heard of this um phrase before. Is my generation this um phrase before. Is my generation this um phrase before. Is my generation of parents also to blame for how kids of parents also to blame for how kids of parents also to blame for how kids are dealing with social interactions are dealing with social interactions are dealing with social interactions that are hard? that are hard? that are hard? >> Um probably. Sorry. Yes. So, so >> Um probably. Sorry. Yes. So, so >> Um probably. Sorry. Yes. So, so lawnmower. So, most of our listeners lawnmower. So, most of our listeners lawnmower. So, most of our listeners probably have heard of helicopter probably have heard of helicopter probably have heard of helicopter parents, which are sort of parents that parents, which are sort of parents that parents, which are sort of parents that whenever there's trouble, swoop in to whenever there's trouble, swoop in to whenever there's trouble, swoop in to kind of help. You know, your kid for kind of help. You know, your kid for kind of help. You know, your kid for gets their backpack to their soccer gets their backpack to their soccer gets their backpack to their soccer game. You drive home and you go get it.

game. You drive home and you go get it. game. You drive home and you go get it. You know, they're having trouble at You know, they're having trouble at You know, they're having trouble at school, you go in and talk to the school, you go in and talk to the school, you go in and talk to the teacher, right? Lawnmower parenting is teacher, right? Lawnmower parenting is teacher, right? Lawnmower parenting is like a even worse step of that where the like a even worse step of that where the like a even worse step of that where the idea, the metaphor is that you're mowing idea, the metaphor is that you're mowing idea, the metaphor is that you're mowing the lawn to make everything flat so your the lawn to make everything flat so your the lawn to make everything flat so your kids don't trip. You're like getting rid kids don't trip. You're like getting rid kids don't trip. You're like getting rid of the weeds that could get in the way of the weeds that could get in the way of the weeds that could get in the way of anything. And I think as parents we of anything. And I think as parents we of anything. And I think as parents we do that, right? And and I definitely see do that, right? And and I definitely see do that, right? And and I definitely see this with my Yale parents, right? Who this with my Yale parents, right? Who this with my Yale parents, right? Who are, you know, checking, calling to make are, you know, checking, calling to make are, you know, checking, calling to make sure their kids are getting into the sure their kids are getting into the sure their kids are getting into the right classes, um, calling to complain right classes, um, calling to complain right classes, um, calling to complain about grades. I've had parents send me about grades. I've had parents send me about grades. I've had parents send me emails about a student's grade. Another emails about a student's grade. Another emails about a student's grade. Another one that I was shocked by, but is more one that I was shocked by, but is more one that I was shocked by, but is more common than you think, is parents who common than you think, is parents who common than you think, is parents who are their college students alarm clock. are their college students alarm clock. are their college students alarm clock. Like so, you know, if they have a big Like so, you know, if they have a big Like so, you know, if they have a big test, the parent will call and make sure test, the parent will call and make sure test, the parent will call and make sure they got up. You know, it's like, you they got up. You know, it's like, you they got up. You know, it's like, you know, there's not not like they missed know, there's not not like they missed know, there's not not like they missed it. We're just kind of making sure, just it. We're just kind of making sure, just it. We're just kind of making sure, just checking in to make sure. And those checking in to make sure. And those checking in to make sure. And those things are well-intentioned, right? Like things are well-intentioned, right? Like things are well-intentioned, right? Like parents have to care about how their parents have to care about how their parents have to care about how their kids are doing. I think parenting didn't kids are doing. I think parenting didn't kids are doing. I think parenting didn't used to be a verb, but like now it is a used to be a verb, but like now it is a used to be a verb, but like now it is a verb, right? You really have to actively verb, right? You really have to actively verb, right? You really have to actively take steps. But some of those steps are take steps. But some of those steps are take steps. But some of those steps are removing the friction, the high grasp removing the friction, the high grasp removing the friction, the high grasp that's there. That's an essential that's there. That's an essential that's there. That's an essential teacher for kids developing social teacher for kids developing social teacher for kids developing social connection, for kids developing the connection, for kids developing the connection, for kids developing the ability to get through conflict, um, for ability to get through conflict, um, for ability to get through conflict, um, for them screwing up, right? I can't tell them screwing up, right? I can't tell them screwing up, right? I can't tell you how many parents like are you how many parents like are you how many parents like are proactively trying to prevent their kids proactively trying to prevent their kids proactively trying to prevent their kids from screwing up, which on the one hand, from screwing up, which on the one hand, from screwing up, which on the one hand, yeah, you don't want your kids to screw yeah, you don't want your kids to screw yeah, you don't want your kids to screw up, but oh my gosh, is screwing up such up, but oh my gosh, is screwing up such up, but oh my gosh, is screwing up such a wonderful teacher. You know, if I had a wonderful teacher. You know, if I had a wonderful teacher. You know, if I had to think about the things that taught me

to think about the things that taught me to think about the things that taught me how to do things differently in life, oh how to do things differently in life, oh how to do things differently in life, oh my gosh, screwing up teaches me way more my gosh, screwing up teaches me way more my gosh, screwing up teaches me way more than somebody doing it for me. Let me than somebody doing it for me. Let me than somebody doing it for me. Let me ask you um something that might be ask you um something that might be ask you um something that might be connected or might not. Is there connected or might not. Is there connected or might not. Is there anything about our happiness that you anything about our happiness that you anything about our happiness that you think is uniquely American? think is uniquely American? think is uniquely American? Oh, for sure. I mean, we're such weirdos Oh, for sure. I mean, we're such weirdos Oh, for sure. I mean, we're such weirdos when it comes to happiness. I mean, we when it comes to happiness. I mean, we when it comes to happiness. I mean, we we are really into happiness, first of we are really into happiness, first of we are really into happiness, first of all. Um, you know, we care a lot about all. Um, you know, we care a lot about all. Um, you know, we care a lot about it and that means that we tend to have it and that means that we tend to have it and that means that we tend to have more of that paradox of pursuing more of that paradox of pursuing more of that paradox of pursuing happiness that we talked about before. happiness that we talked about before. happiness that we talked about before. or this idea that when you go for or this idea that when you go for or this idea that when you go for happiness, uh, you the more you go for happiness, uh, you the more you go for happiness, uh, you the more you go for happiness, the more unlikely you are to happiness, the more unlikely you are to happiness, the more unlikely you are to get it. Um, and this is one of the get it. Um, and this is one of the get it. Um, and this is one of the things I find most fascinating about things I find most fascinating about things I find most fascinating about Iris Mous's research. She's actually Iris Mous's research. She's actually Iris Mous's research. She's actually she's she works at UC Berkeley, but she's she works at UC Berkeley, but she's she works at UC Berkeley, but she's German. And I think one of the she's German. And I think one of the she's German. And I think one of the things that drew her to this work is things that drew her to this work is things that drew her to this work is that, you know, she'll claim that like that, you know, she'll claim that like that, you know, she'll claim that like Germans have just like a different Germans have just like a different Germans have just like a different relationship with the pursuit of relationship with the pursuit of relationship with the pursuit of happiness than Americans do. And there's happiness than Americans do. And there's happiness than Americans do. And there's some data on this. You know, there's some data on this. You know, there's some data on this. You know, there's studies that have analyzed, for example, studies that have analyzed, for example, studies that have analyzed, for example, like uh condolences cards in Germany and like uh condolences cards in Germany and like uh condolences cards in Germany and other parts of Europe and the US. And other parts of Europe and the US. And other parts of Europe and the US. And what they find is that, you know, all of what they find is that, you know, all of what they find is that, you know, all of them mention grief and something, but them mention grief and something, but them mention grief and something, but like the German cards stop there.

like the German cards stop there. like the German cards stop there. They're like, you know, in the deepest They're like, you know, in the deepest They're like, you know, in the deepest sadness or something, whereas the sadness or something, whereas the sadness or something, whereas the American greeting cards are kind of American greeting cards are kind of American greeting cards are kind of like, but you know, silver lining, like, but you know, silver lining, like, but you know, silver lining, they're in a better place or something. they're in a better place or something. they're in a better place or something. And she's like, the Germans just stop at And she's like, the Germans just stop at And she's like, the Germans just stop at what is like somebody died and you're what is like somebody died and you're what is like somebody died and you're sad, just like be cool with it. So, I sad, just like be cool with it. So, I sad, just like be cool with it. So, I think Americans are kind of weirdos when think Americans are kind of weirdos when think Americans are kind of weirdos when it comes with happiness. We're also it comes with happiness. We're also it comes with happiness. We're also focused on like optimizing, right? And focused on like optimizing, right? And focused on like optimizing, right? And and this feels like very right now, this and this feels like very right now, this and this feels like very right now, this feels very Tik Tok, but you know, this feels very Tik Tok, but you know, this feels very Tik Tok, but you know, this is something again Americans were is something again Americans were is something again Americans were thinking about for a long time, right? thinking about for a long time, right? thinking about for a long time, right? Like rewind the early 19th century and Like rewind the early 19th century and Like rewind the early 19th century and you have scholars like Alexis you have scholars like Alexis you have scholars like Alexis Dtoqueville, right? Who was this French Dtoqueville, right? Who was this French Dtoqueville, right? Who was this French scholar who came over to the US as like scholar who came over to the US as like scholar who came over to the US as like this anthropological experiment like this anthropological experiment like this anthropological experiment like what's going on with the new country? what's going on with the new country? what's going on with the new country? And what he remarked about was that like And what he remarked about was that like And what he remarked about was that like Americans weren't just constantly Americans weren't just constantly Americans weren't just constantly pursuing happiness, but they were like pursuing happiness, but they were like pursuing happiness, but they were like never satisfied with it, right? He had never satisfied with it, right? He had never satisfied with it, right? He had this phrase or something like they, you this phrase or something like they, you this phrase or something like they, you know, Americans will like make a house know, Americans will like make a house know, Americans will like make a house and before they're even done making a and before they're even done making a and before they're even done making a house, they'll start making a new house house, they'll start making a new house house, they'll start making a new house because they really want to like make because they really want to like make because they really want to like make sure it's even better than it was sure it's even better than it was sure it's even better than it was before. And I think it was just this before. And I think it was just this before. And I think it was just this like kind of obs obsession with going like kind of obs obsession with going like kind of obs obsession with going after stuff and optimizing that was after stuff and optimizing that was after stuff and optimizing that was there even back then. And my guess is, there even back then. And my guess is, there even back then. And my guess is, you know, if showed up today and took a you know, if showed up today and took a you know, if showed up today and took a look around, you'd be like, "Oh man, look around, you'd be like, "Oh man, look around, you'd be like, "Oh man, this is even worse now."

this is even worse now." this is even worse now." >> It's funny you mentioned this because >> It's funny you mentioned this because >> It's funny you mentioned this because I've noticed that there's a lot of I've noticed that there's a lot of I've noticed that there's a lot of interest in your work from what I'd call interest in your work from what I'd call interest in your work from what I'd call productivity dudes. um people who are productivity dudes. um people who are productivity dudes. um people who are obsessed with really practical tips and obsessed with really practical tips and obsessed with really practical tips and clear-cut answers for how to always be clear-cut answers for how to always be clear-cut answers for how to always be improving, you know, like always be improving, you know, like always be improving, you know, like always be getting better. getting better. getting better. >> And I've heard you tell them things like >> And I've heard you tell them things like >> And I've heard you tell them things like the science backs up that your employees the science backs up that your employees the science backs up that your employees will be more productive if they're will be more productive if they're will be more productive if they're happier. Do you have misgivings about happier. Do you have misgivings about happier. Do you have misgivings about productivity and this idea of productivity and this idea of productivity and this idea of optimization? optimization? optimization? >> Yeah. No, I I think a couple things >> Yeah. No, I I think a couple things >> Yeah. No, I I think a couple things there. One, yes, I definitely have there. One, yes, I definitely have there. One, yes, I definitely have misgivings is the answer. Um, but I misgivings is the answer. Um, but I misgivings is the answer. Um, but I think one of the things that we have to think one of the things that we have to think one of the things that we have to pay attention to is like how we're pay attention to is like how we're pay attention to is like how we're optimizing. Again, we we're trying to optimizing. Again, we we're trying to optimizing. Again, we we're trying to optimize in many cases for like optimize in many cases for like optimize in many cases for like happiness. But another thing I worry happiness. But another thing I worry happiness. But another thing I worry about with the kind of productivity about with the kind of productivity about with the kind of productivity culture is that we're like just never culture is that we're like just never culture is that we're like just never going to get there. I recently going to get there. I recently going to get there. I recently interviewed Oliver Burkeman for my interviewed Oliver Burkeman for my interviewed Oliver Burkeman for my podcast who is this kind of productivity podcast who is this kind of productivity podcast who is this kind of productivity expert. You know, he was would review expert. You know, he was would review expert. You know, he was would review like time performance apps and so on and like time performance apps and so on and like time performance apps and so on and he had this realization which is like he had this realization which is like he had this realization which is like it's never going to be enough, right? I it's never going to be enough, right? I it's never going to be enough, right? I could get the perfect app and it's never could get the perfect app and it's never could get the perfect app and it's never going to be enough. I'm still a finite going to be enough. I'm still a finite going to be enough. I'm still a finite human. There's still too much stuff to human. There's still too much stuff to human. There's still too much stuff to do. Like this fantasy that I have about do. Like this fantasy that I have about do. Like this fantasy that I have about eventually optimizing my schedule is eventually optimizing my schedule is eventually optimizing my schedule is just going to be a fantasy. Like we're just going to be a fantasy. Like we're just going to be a fantasy. Like we're just never going to get there. And one just never going to get there. And one just never going to get there. And one of the ways you can productivity hack is of the ways you can productivity hack is of the ways you can productivity hack is to have radical acceptance about that.

to have radical acceptance about that. to have radical acceptance about that. There's always going to be too much There's always going to be too much There's always going to be too much stuff. You're never going to be perfect. stuff. You're never going to be perfect. stuff. You're never going to be perfect. Like it's always going to be hard. And Like it's always going to be hard. And Like it's always going to be hard. And we can just give our ourselves some we can just give our ourselves some we can just give our ourselves some grace and just radically accept that grace and just radically accept that grace and just radically accept that it's not the usual move for the it's not the usual move for the it's not the usual move for the productivity hack bros, right? Like productivity hack bros, right? Like productivity hack bros, right? Like self-compassion, realizing your limits, self-compassion, realizing your limits, self-compassion, realizing your limits, like recognizing your common humanity. like recognizing your common humanity. like recognizing your common humanity. But it's what the data suggests leads But it's what the data suggests leads But it's what the data suggests leads you to happiness. And perhaps given all you to happiness. And perhaps given all you to happiness. And perhaps given all those data on, you know, if you're those data on, you know, if you're those data on, you know, if you're happier, you produce more and so on happier, you produce more and so on happier, you produce more and so on might actually lead you to more might actually lead you to more might actually lead you to more productivity, too. Let me ask you though productivity, too. Let me ask you though productivity, too. Let me ask you though because I can hear a productivity bro. I because I can hear a productivity bro. I because I can hear a productivity bro. I hate to use that term necessarily. hate to use that term necessarily. hate to use that term necessarily. >> I get a lot of bros non bros. Yes. >> I get a lot of bros non bros. Yes. >> I get a lot of bros non bros. Yes. >> Non bros. Yeah. But productivity people >> Non bros. Yeah. But productivity people >> Non bros. Yeah. But productivity people um or just people who are interested in um or just people who are interested in um or just people who are interested in economics and say actually the economics and say actually the economics and say actually the foundation of the American experiment, foundation of the American experiment, foundation of the American experiment, the foundation of our uniqueness and our the foundation of our uniqueness and our the foundation of our uniqueness and our power economically comes from what power economically comes from what power economically comes from what Dtoqueville saw back then, which is this Dtoqueville saw back then, which is this Dtoqueville saw back then, which is this idea of always being more perfect, a idea of always being more perfect, a idea of always being more perfect, a more perfect union, that we can improve more perfect union, that we can improve more perfect union, that we can improve ourselves and make ourselves better and ourselves and make ourselves better and ourselves and make ourselves better and that in work we find joy and we can find that in work we find joy and we can find that in work we find joy and we can find this you know kind of miracle economic this you know kind of miracle economic this you know kind of miracle economic experiment and that Europe is stagnant experiment and that Europe is stagnant experiment and that Europe is stagnant and and that you know is maybe happier and and that you know is maybe happier and and that you know is maybe happier than us but certainly not as productive.

than us but certainly not as productive. than us but certainly not as productive. >> Yeah. I think there has to be a balance >> Yeah. I think there has to be a balance >> Yeah. I think there has to be a balance here and I think the problem with here and I think the problem with here and I think the problem with American society is that we may have American society is that we may have American society is that we may have pushed ourselves into the point of being pushed ourselves into the point of being pushed ourselves into the point of being so burned out that we're no longer being so burned out that we're no longer being so burned out that we're no longer being productive. Right? And this might be the productive. Right? And this might be the productive. Right? And this might be the position that I sit. Right? I see a lot position that I sit. Right? I see a lot position that I sit. Right? I see a lot of my students who, you know, to get of my students who, you know, to get of my students who, you know, to get into an Ivy League school like Yale have into an Ivy League school like Yale have into an Ivy League school like Yale have worked incredibly hard to get there, but worked incredibly hard to get there, but worked incredibly hard to get there, but they show up and they have incredibly they show up and they have incredibly they show up and they have incredibly high rates of depression, incredibly high rates of depression, incredibly high rates of depression, incredibly high rates of anxiety, incredibly high high rates of anxiety, incredibly high high rates of anxiety, incredibly high rates of burnout. A lot of students say rates of burnout. A lot of students say rates of burnout. A lot of students say that they're miserable that they got that they're miserable that they got that they're miserable that they got there. I think we can shoot for a little there. I think we can shoot for a little there. I think we can shoot for a little bit more balance. And and the reason I bit more balance. And and the reason I bit more balance. And and the reason I think that is that so many studies show think that is that so many studies show think that is that so many studies show prioritizing your social connection, prioritizing your social connection, prioritizing your social connection, prioritizing your sleep, giving yourself prioritizing your sleep, giving yourself prioritizing your sleep, giving yourself rest, right? Those are things that make rest, right? Those are things that make rest, right? Those are things that make you more productive, right? Even if all you more productive, right? Even if all you more productive, right? Even if all you care about is what the economists you care about is what the economists you care about is what the economists might care about the capitalist bottom might care about the capitalist bottom might care about the capitalist bottom line, right? We want, I don't know, line, right? We want, I don't know, line, right? We want, I don't know, higher GDP or getting to the perfect higher GDP or getting to the perfect higher GDP or getting to the perfect school or whatever your bottom line is. school or whatever your bottom line is. school or whatever your bottom line is. Most of the time, you get to that bottom Most of the time, you get to that bottom Most of the time, you get to that bottom line better if you give yourself a line better if you give yourself a line better if you give yourself a break. You if you take some time off.

break. You if you take some time off. break. You if you take some time off. >> Yeah. And you know, we've been talking >> Yeah. And you know, we've been talking >> Yeah. And you know, we've been talking about sort of people who go to Yale, about sort of people who go to Yale, about sort of people who go to Yale, people who are in demanding sort of people who are in demanding sort of people who are in demanding sort of perhaps office jobs, but of course perhaps office jobs, but of course perhaps office jobs, but of course there's the structural inequality that there's the structural inequality that there's the structural inequality that comes from comes from comes from >> totally >> totally >> totally >> American society where people are having >> American society where people are having >> American society where people are having to work two or three jobs just to make to work two or three jobs just to make to work two or three jobs just to make ends meet, plus raising families, etc., ends meet, plus raising families, etc., ends meet, plus raising families, etc., etc. And I guess that feeds into the etc. And I guess that feeds into the etc. And I guess that feeds into the lack of a social safety net and all the lack of a social safety net and all the lack of a social safety net and all the other things that you see in other other things that you see in other other things that you see in other places um where the same holds true no places um where the same holds true no places um where the same holds true no matter where you fall on the income matter where you fall on the income matter where you fall on the income scale, right? scale, right? scale, right? >> Yeah. No, I think um I mean a couple >> Yeah. No, I think um I mean a couple >> Yeah. No, I think um I mean a couple things there. One is that we one of the things there. One is that we one of the things there. One is that we one of the reasons that countries like Denmark and reasons that countries like Denmark and reasons that countries like Denmark and so on are happy is because they have so on are happy is because they have so on are happy is because they have those social safety nets, right? Um it's those social safety nets, right? Um it's those social safety nets, right? Um it's one of the reasons people can pick one of the reasons people can pick one of the reasons people can pick careers that they like. You're taxed so careers that they like. You're taxed so careers that they like. You're taxed so heavily that doesn't pay you to be like heavily that doesn't pay you to be like heavily that doesn't pay you to be like a a finance bro because you're going to a a finance bro because you're going to a a finance bro because you're going to get taxed anyway. So you're like, well, get taxed anyway. So you're like, well, get taxed anyway. So you're like, well, I might as well, you know, be an artist I might as well, you know, be an artist I might as well, you know, be an artist if I want to be an artist or I might as if I want to be an artist or I might as if I want to be an artist or I might as well be a teacher, right? There's the well be a teacher, right? There's the well be a teacher, right? There's the lack of like income inequality means lack of like income inequality means lack of like income inequality means people have an excuse to follow their people have an excuse to follow their people have an excuse to follow their purpose of what they really care about, purpose of what they really care about, purpose of what they really care about, which can allow people to feel like which can allow people to feel like which can allow people to feel like their life is better. And so I think their life is better. And so I think their life is better. And so I think those structural things matter a lot, those structural things matter a lot, those structural things matter a lot, right? I I get in trouble sometimes um right? I I get in trouble sometimes um right? I I get in trouble sometimes um for talking about so many of these for talking about so many of these for talking about so many of these individual solutions of like, oh, you individual solutions of like, oh, you individual solutions of like, oh, you should engage in social connection or should engage in social connection or should engage in social connection or you should write in a gratitude journal you should write in a gratitude journal you should write in a gratitude journal or meditate. And people think that well or meditate. And people think that well or meditate. And people think that well don't we also have to have social safety don't we also have to have social safety don't we also have to have social safety net and I'm like yeah of course like net and I'm like yeah of course like net and I'm like yeah of course like this is a yes and situation right like this is a yes and situation right like this is a yes and situation right like all these individual things that I'm all these individual things that I'm all these individual things that I'm suggesting are supposed to complement suggesting are supposed to complement suggesting are supposed to complement not substitute the stuff that we should

not substitute the stuff that we should not substitute the stuff that we should really be doing. But another thing we really be doing. But another thing we really be doing. But another thing we know about individual action is that it know about individual action is that it know about individual action is that it just makes us more productive. It gives just makes us more productive. It gives just makes us more productive. It gives us emotional bandwidth and that can mean us emotional bandwidth and that can mean us emotional bandwidth and that can mean the resilience we need to fight for the resilience we need to fight for the resilience we need to fight for stuff. I think people mistakenly think stuff. I think people mistakenly think stuff. I think people mistakenly think that these individual strategies that these individual strategies that these individual strategies sometimes build up the resilience you sometimes build up the resilience you sometimes build up the resilience you need to just like put up with being in a need to just like put up with being in a need to just like put up with being in a bad society. Um but I think the real bad society. Um but I think the real bad society. Um but I think the real goal of them is to give you the goal of them is to give you the goal of them is to give you the resilience to like fight the bad resilience to like fight the bad resilience to like fight the bad society. And there's data on this. Um society. And there's data on this. Um society. And there's data on this. Um Constantine Kushv who's at Georgetown Constantine Kushv who's at Georgetown Constantine Kushv who's at Georgetown has this paper that he he talks about has this paper that he he talks about has this paper that he he talks about the polyiana hypothesis which is this the polyiana hypothesis which is this the polyiana hypothesis which is this idea like if we just make people happy idea like if we just make people happy idea like if we just make people happy they're going to be like this dulu polya they're going to be like this dulu polya they're going to be like this dulu polya walking around like everything's great walking around like everything's great walking around like everything's great like all these structures of inequality like all these structures of inequality like all these structures of inequality like I'm cool with that cuz like fine like I'm cool with that cuz like fine like I'm cool with that cuz like fine right? His point in running the paper is right? His point in running the paper is right? His point in running the paper is like, well, that's a hypothesis about like, well, that's a hypothesis about like, well, that's a hypothesis about how human nature works. The hypothesis how human nature works. The hypothesis how human nature works. The hypothesis is like if you make people happy, is like if you make people happy, is like if you make people happy, they're just going to ignore the they're just going to ignore the they're just going to ignore the structural stuff. And what he finds is structural stuff. And what he finds is structural stuff. And what he finds is just the opposite. If you look at people just the opposite. If you look at people just the opposite. If you look at people who are taking action to fix structural who are taking action to fix structural who are taking action to fix structural problems, he does this in the domain of problems, he does this in the domain of problems, he does this in the domain of like climate concern and also he's like climate concern and also he's like climate concern and also he's running this around the times of Black running this around the times of Black running this around the times of Black Lives Matter and so who goes to a Lives Matter and so who goes to a Lives Matter and so who goes to a protest and so on. He finds that like protest and so on. He finds that like protest and so on. He finds that like it's the people who have the highest it's the people who have the highest it's the people who have the highest positive emotion, the people with the positive emotion, the people with the positive emotion, the people with the best mental health that are ones that best mental health that are ones that best mental health that are ones that are going and trying to fix stuff. It are going and trying to fix stuff. It are going and trying to fix stuff. It goes back to where we started our conver goes back to where we started our conver goes back to where we started our conver conversation um around the udemonic conversation um around the udemonic conversation um around the udemonic sense of like how do you become happy sense of like how do you become happy sense of like how do you become happy and how do you find meaning and getting and how do you find meaning and getting and how do you find meaning and getting back to the American experiment right back to the American experiment right back to the American experiment right like this was what the forefathers meant like this was what the forefathers meant like this was what the forefathers meant right they they had problems right the right they they had problems right the right they they had problems right the forefathers were filled with people who forefathers were filled with people who forefathers were filled with people who are not focused on everybody's udimonic are not focused on everybody's udimonic are not focused on everybody's udimonic happiness those unalienable rights are happiness those unalienable rights are happiness those unalienable rights are for landed white dudes not for everybody

for landed white dudes not for everybody for landed white dudes not for everybody but in their idealistic sense what they but in their idealistic sense what they but in their idealistic sense what they were trying to go for is that udeimmonic were trying to go for is that udeimmonic were trying to go for is that udeimmonic sense of happiness. It was about civic sense of happiness. It was about civic sense of happiness. It was about civic virtue. It was about making everybody virtue. It was about making everybody virtue. It was about making everybody happy. And that was the happiness they happy. And that was the happiness they happy. And that was the happiness they thought we should all be pursuing. Lorie thought we should all be pursuing. Lorie thought we should all be pursuing. Lorie Santos, thank you so much. I've really Santos, thank you so much. I've really Santos, thank you so much. I've really enjoyed our conversation. Thanks so much enjoyed our conversation. Thanks so much enjoyed our conversation. Thanks so much for having me on the show. >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro >> I'm Lulu Garcia Navaro >> and I'm David Maresy >> and I'm David Maresy >> and I'm David Maresy >> and we're the hosts of the interview, an >> and we're the hosts of the interview, an >> and we're the hosts of the interview, an audio and video podcast from the New audio and video podcast from the New audio and video podcast from the New York Times. Every week we interview York Times. Every week we interview York Times. Every week we interview fascinating and influential people from fascinating and influential people from fascinating and influential people from all walks of life. all walks of life. all walks of life. >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so >> Subscribe to our YouTube channel so you'll never miss an episode.