Is the End of the World Now on the Table? | The Interview

We didn't write the book because we We didn't write the book because we think these people are fascinating. I think these people are fascinating. I think these people are fascinating. I mean, we we wrote this book because we mean, we we wrote this book because we mean, we we wrote this book because we want people to fight them and beat them. want people to fight them and beat them. want people to fight them and beat them. [music] >> I'm David Maresy, and today I'm >> I'm David Maresy, and today I'm interviewing Naomi Klene and Astra interviewing Naomi Klene and Astra interviewing Naomi Klene and Astra Taylor. They've written a book together Taylor. They've written a book together Taylor. They've written a book together called End Times Fascism and the Fight called End Times Fascism and the Fight called End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World, which argues that for the Living World, which argues that for the Living World, which argues that a powerful coalition of tech a powerful coalition of tech a powerful coalition of tech billionaires, anti-immigration billionaires, anti-immigration billionaires, anti-immigration operatives, and many on the religious operatives, and many on the religious operatives, and many on the religious right have united around a shared belief right have united around a shared belief right have united around a shared belief that the world is ending. But rather that the world is ending. But rather that the world is ending. But rather than prevent its collapse, [music] they than prevent its collapse, [music] they than prevent its collapse, [music] they want to accelerate it. want to accelerate it. want to accelerate it. >> We call them traders, but not traders to >> We call them traders, but not traders to >> We call them traders, but not traders to nation, not traders to a flag um or a nation, not traders to a flag um or a nation, not traders to a flag um or a border, but traders to creation, like border, but traders to creation, like border, but traders to creation, like [music] traders to life. [music] traders to life. [music] traders to life. >> Klein has been a prominent voice on the >> Klein has been a prominent voice on the >> Klein has been a prominent voice on the left for decades, writing acclaimed left for decades, writing acclaimed left for decades, writing acclaimed books like the shock doctrine, which is books like the shock doctrine, which is books like the shock doctrine, which is about the link between capitalism and about the link between capitalism and about the link between capitalism and crisis. And Taylor is an activist and crisis. And Taylor is an activist and crisis. And Taylor is an activist and organizer who co-founded the debt organizer who co-founded the debt organizer who co-founded the debt collective, [music] a group advocating collective, [music] a group advocating collective, [music] a group advocating for debtor's rights that came out of the for debtor's rights that came out of the for debtor's rights that came out of the Occupy Wall Street movement. Occupy Wall Street movement. Occupy Wall Street movement. >> You are not in debt because you live >> You are not in debt because you live >> You are not in debt because you live beyond your means, but because you are beyond your means, but because you are beyond your means, but because you are [music] denied the means to live.

[music] denied the means to live. [music] denied the means to live. >> Here's my conversation with Naomi Klein >> Here's my conversation with Naomi Klein >> Here's my conversation with Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor. But [music] first, a and Astra Taylor. But [music] first, a and Astra Taylor. But [music] first, a quick message. If you're not a quick message. If you're not a quick message. If you're not a subscriber, we have some news for you. subscriber, we have some news for you. subscriber, we have some news for you. You [music] can now explore the Times You [music] can now explore the Times You [music] can now explore the Times for free without payw walls during your for free without payw walls during your for free without payw walls during your first month in the New York Times app. first month in the New York Times app. first month in the New York Times app. Just download the app and we hope you Just download the app and we hope you Just download the app and we hope you enjoy it. Okay, [music] on to the enjoy it. Okay, [music] on to the enjoy it. Okay, [music] on to the interview. >> Astra and Naomi, thank you very much for >> Astra and Naomi, thank you very much for taking the time to speak with me today taking the time to speak with me today taking the time to speak with me today and thank you for being here. and thank you for being here. and thank you for being here. >> Really glad to be here. Thank you so >> Really glad to be here. Thank you so >> Really glad to be here. Thank you so much for having us. much for having us. much for having us. >> So, the book is called End Times Fascism >> So, the book is called End Times Fascism >> So, the book is called End Times Fascism and the Fight for the Living World. Um, and the Fight for the Living World. Um, and the Fight for the Living World. Um, just to start Naomi, the most obvious just to start Naomi, the most obvious just to start Naomi, the most obvious question, what is end times fascism? So question, what is end times fascism? So question, what is end times fascism? So end times fascism end times fascism end times fascism is a fascism that is very much in is a fascism that is very much in is a fascism that is very much in conversation with planetary scale conversation with planetary scale conversation with planetary scale existential crisis. A fascism that is existential crisis. A fascism that is existential crisis. A fascism that is taking the end of this world for taking the end of this world for taking the end of this world for granted. Um and I think we thought granted. Um and I think we thought granted. Um and I think we thought really long and hard about the politics really long and hard about the politics really long and hard about the politics of putting any kind of qualifier on a on of putting any kind of qualifier on a on of putting any kind of qualifier on a on a word like fascism. And the reason we a word like fascism. And the reason we a word like fascism. And the reason we ended up deciding that that it it did ended up deciding that that it it did ended up deciding that that it it did need that is is when we really thought need that is is when we really thought need that is is when we really thought about how our world has changed since about how our world has changed since about how our world has changed since Mussolini declared himself a fascist.

Mussolini declared himself a fascist. Mussolini declared himself a fascist. Our fascists have weapons that last Our fascists have weapons that last Our fascists have weapons that last century fascists couldn't dream of. And century fascists couldn't dream of. And century fascists couldn't dream of. And there was no atomic bomb. Hitler and there was no atomic bomb. Hitler and there was no atomic bomb. Hitler and Mussolini died before the Trinity test. Mussolini died before the Trinity test. Mussolini died before the Trinity test. They didn't understand that fossil fuels They didn't understand that fossil fuels They didn't understand that fossil fuels were warming the planet. So our world were warming the planet. So our world were warming the planet. So our world has changed. our world has become more has changed. our world has become more has changed. our world has become more dangerous and and fascism has changed in dangerous and and fascism has changed in dangerous and and fascism has changed in response and has kind of made peace with response and has kind of made peace with response and has kind of made peace with the idea of collapse and now what the idea of collapse and now what the idea of collapse and now what they're fighting for is who is going to they're fighting for is who is going to they're fighting for is who is going to survive that cataclysm. survive that cataclysm. survive that cataclysm. >> So how does end times fascism make >> So how does end times fascism make >> So how does end times fascism make itself felt in the world today? itself felt in the world today? itself felt in the world today? >> I was just the first thing I thought of >> I was just the first thing I thought of >> I was just the first thing I thought of was the SpaceX IPO. Um I mean how does was the SpaceX IPO. Um I mean how does was the SpaceX IPO. Um I mean how does it make itself I think for a lot a lot it make itself I think for a lot a lot it make itself I think for a lot a lot of people what resonates is like hey of people what resonates is like hey of people what resonates is like hey don't the billionaires have bunkers now don't the billionaires have bunkers now don't the billionaires have bunkers now aren't they somehow prepping what is aren't they somehow prepping what is aren't they somehow prepping what is this sort of fixation on leaving the this sort of fixation on leaving the this sort of fixation on leaving the earth behind and like that the only earth behind and like that the only earth behind and like that the only vision of a future that seems to be on vision of a future that seems to be on vision of a future that seems to be on offer is a a future that says yeah offer is a a future that says yeah offer is a a future that says yeah things are so messed up here that we things are so messed up here that we things are so messed up here that we have to get on a rocket ship and leave have to get on a rocket ship and leave have to get on a rocket ship and leave like I don't think the idea of space like I don't think the idea of space like I don't think the idea of space exploration is inherently fascist but I exploration is inherently fascist but I exploration is inherently fascist but I think the way it is being formulated by think the way it is being formulated by think the way it is being formulated by by an Elon Musk is um because it is just by an Elon Musk is um because it is just by an Elon Musk is um because it is just accepting that this is you know as he accepting that this is you know as he accepting that this is you know as he puts it he's saving humanity. Why is he puts it he's saving humanity. Why is he puts it he's saving humanity. Why is he what is he saving humanity from?

what is he saving humanity from? what is he saving humanity from? Exactly. Why why do we accept that this Exactly. Why why do we accept that this Exactly. Why why do we accept that this world is um needs escape from? You know, world is um needs escape from? You know, world is um needs escape from? You know, I think sometimes a term like uh fascism I think sometimes a term like uh fascism I think sometimes a term like uh fascism can be foggy for people. Um and and it's can be foggy for people. Um and and it's can be foggy for people. Um and and it's compounded by the fact that over the compounded by the fact that over the compounded by the fact that over the last 10 or however many years, it's a last 10 or however many years, it's a last 10 or however many years, it's a term that has been used increasingly. term that has been used increasingly. term that has been used increasingly. Um, so when someone hears you talking Um, so when someone hears you talking Um, so when someone hears you talking about, you know, end times and about, you know, end times and about, you know, end times and existential planetary risk, I think existential planetary risk, I think existential planetary risk, I think that's clear enough where that's coming that's clear enough where that's coming that's clear enough where that's coming from, but c can you try and clarify like from, but c can you try and clarify like from, but c can you try and clarify like who who are the fascists in this who who are the fascists in this who who are the fascists in this formulation? formulation? formulation? >> Yeah, the question who are the >> Yeah, the question who are the >> Yeah, the question who are the anti-fascists? One thing we we are clear anti-fascists? One thing we we are clear anti-fascists? One thing we we are clear on is it's not a dominant political on is it's not a dominant political on is it's not a dominant political worldview even on the right. Um, but it worldview even on the right. Um, but it worldview even on the right. Um, but it is a a term we think applies to some of is a a term we think applies to some of is a a term we think applies to some of the most powerful people in the world the most powerful people in the world the most powerful people in the world who are leading governments and leading who are leading governments and leading who are leading governments and leading companies. And so part of what we try to companies. And so part of what we try to companies. And so part of what we try to do in the book is go, well, who is do in the book is go, well, who is do in the book is go, well, who is making up the end times fascist alliance making up the end times fascist alliance making up the end times fascist alliance today? And they are responding to the today? And they are responding to the today? And they are responding to the the felt apocalypticism in different the felt apocalypticism in different the felt apocalypticism in different ways, but they are all responding to it.

ways, but they are all responding to it. ways, but they are all responding to it. So there, you know, in the book we talk So there, you know, in the book we talk So there, you know, in the book we talk about sort of religious end- timerrs who about sort of religious end- timerrs who about sort of religious end- timerrs who want to hasten about the return of the want to hasten about the return of the want to hasten about the return of the Messiah who kind of believe that they Messiah who kind of believe that they Messiah who kind of believe that they will be saved by by the grace of their will be saved by by the grace of their will be saved by by the grace of their faith. Those are the you know faith. Those are the you know faith. Those are the you know evangelical Christian Zionists who are evangelical Christian Zionists who are evangelical Christian Zionists who are very potent political force in the very potent political force in the very potent political force in the United States. That's um you know United States. That's um you know United States. That's um you know Zionists in Israel who are are potent Zionists in Israel who are are potent Zionists in Israel who are are potent political forces. These are are real political forces. These are are real political forces. These are are real groups of people with real power. groups of people with real power. groups of people with real power. Messianic. Yeah. And then there are the Messianic. Yeah. And then there are the Messianic. Yeah. And then there are the tech the sort of tech end timers who tech the sort of tech end timers who tech the sort of tech end timers who believe that you know it's worth believe that you know it's worth believe that you know it's worth incinerating this world as long as they incinerating this world as long as they incinerating this world as long as they can build their virtual one and that you can build their virtual one and that you can build their virtual one and that you know we are uh inevitably heading know we are uh inevitably heading know we are uh inevitably heading towards some sort of digital super towards some sort of digital super towards some sort of digital super intelligence some sort of singularity intelligence some sort of singularity intelligence some sort of singularity and there are these echoes in the story and there are these echoes in the story and there are these echoes in the story with the the religious story. And then with the the religious story. And then with the the religious story. And then the third group we look at are the the third group we look at are the the third group we look at are the ethnationalists ethnationalists ethnationalists who who believe that the nation is under who who believe that the nation is under who who believe that the nation is under existential threat from immigration, existential threat from immigration, existential threat from immigration, from cultural change and you know their from cultural change and you know their from cultural change and you know their responses to fortress the nation to sort responses to fortress the nation to sort responses to fortress the nation to sort of cast out the enemy's um uh domestic of cast out the enemy's um uh domestic of cast out the enemy's um uh domestic enemies. And so these groups are enemies. And so these groups are enemies. And so these groups are different, right? There's different, right? There's different, right? There's contradictions. They're messy and not contradictions. They're messy and not contradictions. They're messy and not totally coherent, but they're responding totally coherent, but they're responding totally coherent, but they're responding to this apocalyptic, to this apocalyptic, to this apocalyptic, you know, sense, the sense that the you know, sense, the sense that the you know, sense, the sense that the world is increasingly fraught and world is increasingly fraught and world is increasingly fraught and dangerous, which it is. and they're dangerous, which it is. and they're dangerous, which it is. and they're responding by um by you know shutting responding by um by you know shutting responding by um by you know shutting down and trying to defend their their down and trying to defend their their down and trying to defend their their group and they've made this very group and they've made this very group and they've made this very dangerous alliance. help me understand dangerous alliance. help me understand dangerous alliance. help me understand the the the coalition aspect because you the the the coalition aspect because you the the the coalition aspect because you know I I understand how some of these know I I understand how some of these know I I understand how some of these these different groups share ideological

these different groups share ideological these different groups share ideological traits for example you know if someone traits for example you know if someone traits for example you know if someone were to say like I don't quite were to say like I don't quite were to say like I don't quite understand what you know uh uh religious understand what you know uh uh religious understand what you know uh uh religious nationalists have to do with nationalists have to do with nationalists have to do with >> Elon Musk is it is it like an >> Elon Musk is it is it like an >> Elon Musk is it is it like an ideological framework that we're putting ideological framework that we're putting ideological framework that we're putting on these people and saying hey like they on these people and saying hey like they on these people and saying hey like they share these ideas or is there like share these ideas or is there like share these ideas or is there like actual practical actual practical actual practical coordinated coordinated coordinated uh effort between these people. uh effort between these people. uh effort between these people. >> Well, I would say that that effort is >> Well, I would say that that effort is >> Well, I would say that that effort is embodied by the Trump administration, embodied by the Trump administration, embodied by the Trump administration, right? I mean, if you if you look at um right? I mean, if you if you look at um right? I mean, if you if you look at um this sort of awkward Frankenstein like this sort of awkward Frankenstein like this sort of awkward Frankenstein like coalition that he has cobbled together coalition that he has cobbled together coalition that he has cobbled together and that that that brought him to power, and that that that brought him to power, and that that that brought him to power, it contains all of these elements, it contains all of these elements, it contains all of these elements, right? It the massive funding coming right? It the massive funding coming right? It the massive funding coming from Silicon Valley and Elon Musk in from Silicon Valley and Elon Musk in from Silicon Valley and Elon Musk in particular, um but certainly not particular, um but certainly not particular, um but certainly not exclusively. Then you look at the fact exclusively. Then you look at the fact exclusively. Then you look at the fact that he um you [snorts] know appointed that he um you [snorts] know appointed that he um you [snorts] know appointed Mike Huckabe a a Christian Zionist to be Mike Huckabe a a Christian Zionist to be Mike Huckabe a a Christian Zionist to be his ambassador to Israel. the way he has his ambassador to Israel. the way he has his ambassador to Israel. the way he has understood that Christian Zionists um understood that Christian Zionists um understood that Christian Zionists um are a key part of his base um and the are a key part of his base um and the are a key part of his base um and the centrality of sort of uh advancing centrality of sort of uh advancing centrality of sort of uh advancing messianic Zionist narratives in um in messianic Zionist narratives in um in messianic Zionist narratives in um in Israel dating back to his his first term Israel dating back to his his first term Israel dating back to his his first term when he moved the the US embassy to when he moved the the US embassy to when he moved the the US embassy to Jerusalem. That was huge in the Jerusalem. That was huge in the Jerusalem. That was huge in the evangelical community. Um and so how evangelical community. Um and so how evangelical community. Um and so how does the coalition hold together? I does the coalition hold together? I does the coalition hold together? I mean, asked Donald Trump. He's the he mean, asked Donald Trump. He's the he mean, asked Donald Trump. He's the he he's he's he's built this Frankenstein he's he's he's built this Frankenstein he's he's he's built this Frankenstein monster. We're just trying to understand

monster. We're just trying to understand monster. We're just trying to understand it like what are the common elements. I it like what are the common elements. I it like what are the common elements. I mean, if we think about the the tech mean, if we think about the the tech mean, if we think about the the tech billionaire class, right? And billionaire class, right? And billionaire class, right? And particularly in Silicon Valley and that particularly in Silicon Valley and that particularly in Silicon Valley and that sort of moment in Trump's inauguration sort of moment in Trump's inauguration sort of moment in Trump's inauguration where um you know, some of the where um you know, some of the where um you know, some of the wealthiest people in the history of the wealthiest people in the history of the wealthiest people in the history of the world are lined up behind world are lined up behind world are lined up behind >> the [laughter] second inauguration. >> the [laughter] second inauguration. >> the [laughter] second inauguration. >> The second inauguration and this sort of >> The second inauguration and this sort of >> The second inauguration and this sort of moment of confusion of like what exactly moment of confusion of like what exactly moment of confusion of like what exactly is going on? the first time Trump was is going on? the first time Trump was is going on? the first time Trump was president, many of these same president, many of these same president, many of these same billionaires were um criticizing him. billionaires were um criticizing him. billionaires were um criticizing him. They were upset when he left the Paris They were upset when he left the Paris They were upset when he left the Paris climate accord. You know, Zuckerberg was climate accord. You know, Zuckerberg was climate accord. You know, Zuckerberg was condemning him. Bezos was launching an condemning him. Bezos was launching an condemning him. Bezos was launching an Earth prize. You know, they were Earth prize. You know, they were Earth prize. You know, they were positioning themselves as the people who positioning themselves as the people who positioning themselves as the people who were going to save the planet. And you were going to save the planet. And you were going to save the planet. And you know, one of the things we're we're know, one of the things we're we're know, one of the things we're we're arguing is as the world changes, um our arguing is as the world changes, um our arguing is as the world changes, um our elites are changing are are becoming elites are changing are are becoming elites are changing are are becoming more fascist. are are are are attracted more fascist. are are are are attracted more fascist. are are are are attracted to ideas that justify the idea that only to ideas that justify the idea that only to ideas that justify the idea that only some people are going to make it. But some people are going to make it. But some people are going to make it. But that is not the same story they were that is not the same story they were that is not the same story they were telling even just 5 years ago, right? So telling even just 5 years ago, right? So telling even just 5 years ago, right? So we need to pay attention to the way the we need to pay attention to the way the we need to pay attention to the way the story is changing as our world changes.

story is changing as our world changes. story is changing as our world changes. >> Right? I think I think a a question >> Right? I think I think a a question >> Right? I think I think a a question about that would be, you know, if if about that would be, you know, if if about that would be, you know, if if someone were to say, hey, you know, 5 someone were to say, hey, you know, 5 someone were to say, hey, you know, 5 years ago the the tech elite were not years ago the the tech elite were not years ago the the tech elite were not attempting to curry favor with Trump in attempting to curry favor with Trump in attempting to curry favor with Trump in the same way that they were more more the same way that they were more more the same way that they were more more recently, you could say, well, yeah, recently, you could say, well, yeah, recently, you could say, well, yeah, they're responding to incentives to want they're responding to incentives to want they're responding to incentives to want to cozy up to him because that's better to cozy up to him because that's better to cozy up to him because that's better for their businesses. So, so can you for their businesses. So, so can you for their businesses. So, so can you unpack like the the fascism element unpack like the the fascism element unpack like the the fascism element there and as opposed to just people there and as opposed to just people there and as opposed to just people pursuing their incentives? pursuing their incentives? pursuing their incentives? >> Well, [snorts] I think they're really >> Well, [snorts] I think they're really >> Well, [snorts] I think they're really entangled. Um, and I I don't think it's entangled. Um, and I I don't think it's entangled. Um, and I I don't think it's as simple as saying that, okay, they're as simple as saying that, okay, they're as simple as saying that, okay, they're lining up behind it because it's because lining up behind it because it's because lining up behind it because it's because they know who he is and it's good for they know who he is and it's good for they know who he is and it's good for them because them because them because >> they could have done that last time and >> they could have done that last time and >> they could have done that last time and it would would have been the same it would would have been the same it would would have been the same dynamics. dynamics. dynamics. >> Very few of them did. >> Very few of them did. >> Very few of them did. They also helped get him elected. I They also helped get him elected. I They also helped get him elected. I mean, in some cases, certainly in the mean, in some cases, certainly in the mean, in some cases, certainly in the case of Elon Musk and the huge amounts case of Elon Musk and the huge amounts case of Elon Musk and the huge amounts of money that that he spent. Um, but not of money that that he spent. Um, but not of money that that he spent. Um, but not only him, there was a real change and we only him, there was a real change and we only him, there was a real change and we track this in the book of of, you know, track this in the book of of, you know, track this in the book of of, you know, like several people played key roles like several people played key roles like several people played key roles including Mark Andre. JD Vance was very including Mark Andre. JD Vance was very including Mark Andre. JD Vance was very much a conduit as somebody who was a much a conduit as somebody who was a much a conduit as somebody who was a creature of Silicon Valley, worked with creature of Silicon Valley, worked with creature of Silicon Valley, worked with Peter Teal, had his own VC firm. um he Peter Teal, had his own VC firm. um he Peter Teal, had his own VC firm. um he was celebrated as the VCVP pick um uh was celebrated as the VCVP pick um uh was celebrated as the VCVP pick um uh among many of the people we write about.

among many of the people we write about. among many of the people we write about. Um but there was a turning point during Um but there was a turning point during Um but there was a turning point during the campaign when a lot of people who the campaign when a lot of people who the campaign when a lot of people who had not supported Trump who identified had not supported Trump who identified had not supported Trump who identified as lifelong Democrats got behind him. We as lifelong Democrats got behind him. We as lifelong Democrats got behind him. We make the case that a lot of it had to do make the case that a lot of it had to do make the case that a lot of it had to do with AI and what they understood was how with AI and what they understood was how with AI and what they understood was how ravenous AI was when it came to energy. ravenous AI was when it came to energy. ravenous AI was when it came to energy. And they understood that Trump as a guy And they understood that Trump as a guy And they understood that Trump as a guy who loves the fossil fuel industry, they who loves the fossil fuel industry, they who loves the fossil fuel industry, they understood that he would open the understood that he would open the understood that he would open the floodgates for this AI arms race. And so floodgates for this AI arms race. And so floodgates for this AI arms race. And so that's an economic incentive. But I that's an economic incentive. But I that's an economic incentive. But I would also argue that that there's a would also argue that that there's a would also argue that that there's a consciousness that the business model consciousness that the business model consciousness that the business model that they have embraced is a business that they have embraced is a business that they have embraced is a business model that is uniquely model that is uniquely model that is uniquely antithetical to a shared human antithetical to a shared human antithetical to a shared human existence. And I say this because these existence. And I say this because these existence. And I say this because these are the same people who were launching are the same people who were launching are the same people who were launching Earth prizes a couple of years ago, Earth prizes a couple of years ago, Earth prizes a couple of years ago, right? They understand the climate right? They understand the climate right? They understand the climate crisis and they understand that what you crisis and they understand that what you crisis and they understand that what you feed AI is energy. It's overwhelmingly feed AI is energy. It's overwhelmingly feed AI is energy. It's overwhelmingly being being fed with LG and coal. And being being fed with LG and coal. And being being fed with LG and coal. And because they understand the climate because they understand the climate because they understand the climate crisis, they understand that that is crisis, they understand that that is crisis, they understand that that is going to do exactly what we're seeing going to do exactly what we're seeing going to do exactly what we're seeing right now. Set whole cities on fire, right now. Set whole cities on fire, right now. Set whole cities on fire, create situations where huge parts of create situations where huge parts of create situations where huge parts of the world is unlivable. Humans are the world is unlivable. Humans are the world is unlivable. Humans are creatures of story. you need a story creatures of story. you need a story creatures of story. you need a story that will justify that kind of sacrifice that will justify that kind of sacrifice that will justify that kind of sacrifice of humans. So the the increasingly of humans. So the the increasingly of humans. So the the increasingly brutal views that we're hearing from brutal views that we're hearing from brutal views that we're hearing from people like Elon Musk where you just people like Elon Musk where you just people like Elon Musk where you just seem to be discounting huge swaths of

seem to be discounting huge swaths of seem to be discounting huge swaths of humanity or even actively playing a role humanity or even actively playing a role humanity or even actively playing a role in destroying USAD at at you know at the in destroying USAD at at you know at the in destroying USAD at at you know at the cost of perhaps you know I mean he would cost of perhaps you know I mean he would cost of perhaps you know I mean he would say no lives but perhaps because he say no lives but perhaps because he say no lives but perhaps because he doesn't count African lives right um doesn't count African lives right um doesn't count African lives right um [snorts] [snorts] [snorts] these things go together you need to a these things go together you need to a these things go together you need to a story that discounts those lies that is story that discounts those lies that is story that discounts those lies that is a fascist story that is a story that has a fascist story that is a story that has a fascist story that is a story that has that has a that has ideas about whose that has a that has ideas about whose that has a that has ideas about whose lives count and whose lives can be lives count and whose lives can be lives count and whose lives can be discarded. And I think it's quite discarded. And I think it's quite discarded. And I think it's quite active. It's not just like a oh this active. It's not just like a oh this active. It's not just like a oh this this we're going where the money is. The this we're going where the money is. The this we're going where the money is. The money is making them fascist. money is making them fascist. money is making them fascist. >> I it is important to note that you know >> I it is important to note that you know >> I it is important to note that you know farright ideology has a long history in farright ideology has a long history in farright ideology has a long history in Silicon Valley. actually it you know it Silicon Valley. actually it you know it Silicon Valley. actually it you know it didn't start at the second inauguration didn't start at the second inauguration didn't start at the second inauguration and you know a figure like Peter Teal and you know a figure like Peter Teal and you know a figure like Peter Teal has been cultivating that worldview has been cultivating that worldview has been cultivating that worldview alongside David Sachs by investing in alongside David Sachs by investing in alongside David Sachs by investing in um promoting uh a certain philosophical um promoting uh a certain philosophical um promoting uh a certain philosophical paradigm right in 2009 he wrote an paradigm right in 2009 he wrote an paradigm right in 2009 he wrote an article that you know is pretty famous article that you know is pretty famous article that you know is pretty famous for good reason that basically says you for good reason that basically says you for good reason that basically says you know democracy and freedom are know democracy and freedom are know democracy and freedom are incompatible right so kind of staking incompatible right so kind of staking incompatible right so kind of staking his claim that if he has to choose his claim that if he has to choose his claim that if he has to choose between democracy and capitalism he'd between democracy and capitalism he'd between democracy and capitalism he'd choose the latter we talk in the book choose the latter we talk in the book choose the latter we talk in the book about uh a conference that Teal's uh about uh a conference that Teal's uh about uh a conference that Teal's uh venture capital firm hosted just before venture capital firm hosted just before venture capital firm hosted just before the the election in 2024 that was called the the election in 2024 that was called the the election in 2024 that was called Heredicon, a conference for thought Heredicon, a conference for thought Heredicon, a conference for thought crime. And the tagline was maybe if crime. And the tagline was maybe if crime. And the tagline was maybe if you're not trying to destroy the world, you're not trying to destroy the world, you're not trying to destroy the world, you're not trying hard enough. I mean, you're not trying hard enough. I mean, you're not trying hard enough. I mean, their language, we we've been wrestling their language, we we've been wrestling their language, we we've been wrestling with how to how to talk about what they with how to how to talk about what they with how to how to talk about what they say because some of it is so nuts that

say because some of it is so nuts that say because some of it is so nuts that you sound a little kooky quoting them, you sound a little kooky quoting them, you sound a little kooky quoting them, but you know, Elon Musk saying humanity, but you know, Elon Musk saying humanity, but you know, Elon Musk saying humanity, it increasingly looks like humanity is a it increasingly looks like humanity is a it increasingly looks like humanity is a biological bootloader for digital super biological bootloader for digital super biological bootloader for digital super intelligence, right? like uh you know or intelligence, right? like uh you know or intelligence, right? like uh you know or that we should rejoice in the fact that we should rejoice in the fact that we should rejoice in the fact they're building our digital uh you know they're building our digital uh you know they're building our digital uh you know the digital beings who will come come the digital beings who will come come the digital beings who will come come after humanity after humanity after humanity >> or Sam Alman saying that AI takes less >> or Sam Alman saying that AI takes less >> or Sam Alman saying that AI takes less energy to train than a human. energy to train than a human. energy to train than a human. >> One of the things that is always unfair >> One of the things that is always unfair >> One of the things that is always unfair in this comparison is people talk about in this comparison is people talk about in this comparison is people talk about how much energy it takes to train an AI how much energy it takes to train an AI how much energy it takes to train an AI model but it also takes a lot of energy model but it also takes a lot of energy model but it also takes a lot of energy to train a human. takes like 20 years of to train a human. takes like 20 years of to train a human. takes like 20 years of life and all of the food you eat during life and all of the food you eat during life and all of the food you eat during that time before you get smart. that time before you get smart. that time before you get smart. >> Yes. Or that the world will be covered >> Yes. Or that the world will be covered >> Yes. Or that the world will be covered in data centers, right? I mean, so this in data centers, right? I mean, so this in data centers, right? I mean, so this is is is >> there's so many ideas what you're >> there's so many ideas what you're >> there's so many ideas what you're saying. It's hard hard for me to saying. It's hard hard for me to saying. It's hard hard for me to [laughter] keep all my follow-up [laughter] keep all my follow-up [laughter] keep all my follow-up questions in my in my head, but the one questions in my in my head, but the one questions in my in my head, but the one that um I I'll I'll raise now is how do that um I I'll I'll raise now is how do that um I I'll I'll raise now is how do you you you disentangle disentangle disentangle uh or or parse what might be like uh or or parse what might be like uh or or parse what might be like trolling from actual like you know trolling from actual like you know trolling from actual like you know ideological views like the the heretic.

ideological views like the the heretic. ideological views like the the heretic. My view is they they want to be our My view is they they want to be our My view is they they want to be our overlords and they want to be our edge overlords and they want to be our edge overlords and they want to be our edge lords like both both and you know and I lords like both both and you know and I lords like both both and you know and I think we've seen at this point that we think we've seen at this point that we think we've seen at this point that we do have to take some of the trolling do have to take some of the trolling do have to take some of the trolling seriously right if we you can be a joke seriously right if we you can be a joke seriously right if we you can be a joke and be really dangerous at the same time and be really dangerous at the same time and be really dangerous at the same time >> you know the last book I wrote um during >> you know the last book I wrote um during >> you know the last book I wrote um during the pandemic the pandemic the pandemic was about it came out in the fall of was about it came out in the fall of was about it came out in the fall of 2023 and it was about a group of people 2023 and it was about a group of people 2023 and it was about a group of people who were dismissed as sort of conspiracy who were dismissed as sort of conspiracy who were dismissed as sort of conspiracy nuts and people who shouldn't be taken nuts and people who shouldn't be taken nuts and people who shouldn't be taken too seriously. Um, and then less than a too seriously. Um, and then less than a too seriously. Um, and then less than a year and a half later, they are running year and a half later, they are running year and a half later, they are running the US government. So, I think that the US government. So, I think that the US government. So, I think that there is an impulse like when you see there is an impulse like when you see there is an impulse like when you see like lots of really extreme things to like lots of really extreme things to like lots of really extreme things to just be like cooler heads will prevail. just be like cooler heads will prevail. just be like cooler heads will prevail. But then if you look at who you know the But then if you look at who you know the But then if you look at who you know the US secretary of war is and what he's US secretary of war is and what he's US secretary of war is and what he's been doing or you know who is running been doing or you know who is running been doing or you know who is running health and human services and the health and human services and the health and human services and the effects that it's already having on effects that it's already having on effects that it's already having on communicable diseases and foodborne communicable diseases and foodborne communicable diseases and foodborne illnesses like I don't think it even illnesses like I don't think it even illnesses like I don't think it even though like we're at the New York Times though like we're at the New York Times though like we're at the New York Times and everyone is very calm here you know and everyone is very calm here you know and everyone is very calm here you know I think the reason I think the reason I think the reason >> speak for yourself [laughter] >> speak for yourself [laughter] >> speak for yourself [laughter] >> the reason >> the reason >> the reason >> comes in degrees >> comes in degrees >> comes in degrees >> I think the reason not to be alarmist >> I think the reason not to be alarmist >> I think the reason not to be alarmist about alarming rhetoric is that you want about alarming rhetoric is that you want about alarming rhetoric is that you want people to take it seriously when there people to take it seriously when there people to take it seriously when there is a serious threat. And I think that is a serious threat. And I think that is a serious threat. And I think that there's enough there are enough alarm there's enough there are enough alarm there's enough there are enough alarm bells going off right now that I don't bells going off right now that I don't bells going off right now that I don't think it's a good time to self soothe think it's a good time to self soothe think it's a good time to self soothe with ideas that maybe that's just with ideas that maybe that's just with ideas that maybe that's just something they're saying to get a something they're saying to get a something they're saying to get a provocation. Um I think there there's

provocation. Um I think there there's provocation. Um I think there there's enough real world action like if you enough real world action like if you enough real world action like if you look like as Astra said they want to be look like as Astra said they want to be look like as Astra said they want to be um our overlords and our edge lords. um our overlords and our edge lords. um our overlords and our edge lords. Obviously, you know, the prototype of Obviously, you know, the prototype of Obviously, you know, the prototype of this is Elon Musk, but you know, when he this is Elon Musk, but you know, when he this is Elon Musk, but you know, when he was head of Doge with his chainsaw, was head of Doge with his chainsaw, was head of Doge with his chainsaw, >> this is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. >> this is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. >> this is the chainsaw for bureaucracy. >> You know, he really did slash entire >> You know, he really did slash entire >> You know, he really did slash entire programs um that millions of people rely programs um that millions of people rely programs um that millions of people rely on for healthare and nutritional on for healthare and nutritional on for healthare and nutritional support. support. support. >> I I want I want to ask an Elon Musk >> I I want I want to ask an Elon Musk >> I I want I want to ask an Elon Musk question. I mean, he he truly is a a question. I mean, he he truly is a a question. I mean, he he truly is a a defining character of our age. uh for defining character of our age. uh for defining character of our age. uh for better or worse and I think people who better or worse and I think people who better or worse and I think people who who like him which there are a lot of who like him which there are a lot of who like him which there are a lot of people who like him would say well people who like him would say well people who like him would say well actually the the there's a real romance actually the the there's a real romance actually the the there's a real romance and grandeur to the idea of and grandeur to the idea of and grandeur to the idea of >> SpaceX rockets and colonizing uh uh or >> SpaceX rockets and colonizing uh uh or >> SpaceX rockets and colonizing uh uh or even just humanity exploring outer space even just humanity exploring outer space even just humanity exploring outer space or you know somebody said to me because or you know somebody said to me because or you know somebody said to me because I was talking through the through uh the I was talking through the through uh the I was talking through the through uh the ideas in the book with with some of ideas in the book with with some of ideas in the book with with some of those folks and somebody said to me those folks and somebody said to me those folks and somebody said to me Well, Elon Musk is out there saying more Well, Elon Musk is out there saying more Well, Elon Musk is out there saying more people should have more babies because people should have more babies because people should have more babies because of uh uh you know, population decline.

of uh uh you know, population decline. of uh uh you know, population decline. How does that fit with somebody who's How does that fit with somebody who's How does that fit with somebody who's like uh uh interested in hastening some like uh uh interested in hastening some like uh uh interested in hastening some sort of cataclysm or you know, another sort of cataclysm or you know, another sort of cataclysm or you know, another person brought up the example of person brought up the example of person brought up the example of >> certain babies >> certain babies >> certain babies >> certain babies. Yeah. Another person >> certain babies. Yeah. Another person >> certain babies. Yeah. Another person brought up the example of um brought up the example of um brought up the example of um >> that's a hallmark of fascism >> that's a hallmark of fascism >> that's a hallmark of fascism >> of uh um you know perhaps the Tesla >> of uh um you know perhaps the Tesla >> of uh um you know perhaps the Tesla self-driving cars are a lot safer than self-driving cars are a lot safer than self-driving cars are a lot safer than human drivers and that that could save human drivers and that that could save human drivers and that that could save tens of thousands of lives every year. tens of thousands of lives every year. tens of thousands of lives every year. And I I just wonder if there is if any And I I just wonder if there is if any And I I just wonder if there is if any of those those things for you complicate of those those things for you complicate of those those things for you complicate the idea of sort of the idea of sort of the idea of sort of what Elon Musk really believes and and what Elon Musk really believes and and what Elon Musk really believes and and how he acts on the world because to me how he acts on the world because to me how he acts on the world because to me it looks incoherent more than more than it looks incoherent more than more than it looks incoherent more than more than anything else. [snorts] anything else. [snorts] anything else. [snorts] >> Yeah. I mean I I don't want to do too >> Yeah. I mean I I don't want to do too >> Yeah. I mean I I don't want to do too much work to try to make him coherent. much work to try to make him coherent. much work to try to make him coherent. Um I I think that's not that's not my Um I I think that's not that's not my Um I I think that's not that's not my job. Um, but job. Um, but job. Um, but I do think he has a vision of the I do think he has a vision of the I do think he has a vision of the future. Um, I think he's obsessed with future. Um, I think he's obsessed with future. Um, I think he's obsessed with the vision of the future that he sort of the vision of the future that he sort of the vision of the future that he sort of grew up with and kind of pulpy, you grew up with and kind of pulpy, you grew up with and kind of pulpy, you know, science fiction and and comic know, science fiction and and comic know, science fiction and and comic books and and, you know, wants that books and and, you know, wants that books and and, you know, wants that future. He feels it was promised. We future. He feels it was promised. We future. He feels it was promised. We were promised flying cars. Where are my were promised flying cars. Where are my were promised flying cars. Where are my flying [laughter] cars? Right.

flying [laughter] cars? Right. flying [laughter] cars? Right. >> Which Peter Teal famously said. >> Which Peter Teal famously said. >> Which Peter Teal famously said. >> Yeah. So, the idea that he has a vision >> Yeah. So, the idea that he has a vision >> Yeah. So, the idea that he has a vision of a future does not mean he's not a of a future does not mean he's not a of a future does not mean he's not a fascist. Um, I think that he has a fascist. Um, I think that he has a fascist. Um, I think that he has a vision of a future for a subset of vision of a future for a subset of vision of a future for a subset of humanity who get to enjoy um the the the humanity who get to enjoy um the the the humanity who get to enjoy um the the the um implants and upgrades and flying cars um implants and upgrades and flying cars um implants and upgrades and flying cars and rocket ships. It's not that he's and rocket ships. It's not that he's and rocket ships. It's not that he's completely nihilistic and doesn't completely nihilistic and doesn't completely nihilistic and doesn't believe there is a future. He believes believe there is a future. He believes believe there is a future. He believes in a kind of VIP bespoke future that is in a kind of VIP bespoke future that is in a kind of VIP bespoke future that is based on this hierarchy of humanity that based on this hierarchy of humanity that based on this hierarchy of humanity that allows him on the one hand to say that allows him on the one hand to say that allows him on the one hand to say that people in the so-called west should have people in the so-called west should have people in the so-called west should have more babies but slash programs that are more babies but slash programs that are more babies but slash programs that are providing food and medicine to children providing food and medicine to children providing food and medicine to children in Somalia and the Democratic Republic in Somalia and the Democratic Republic in Somalia and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Like like those things are of the Congo. Like like those things are of the Congo. Like like those things are happening at the same time. But I think happening at the same time. But I think happening at the same time. But I think what you're getting to is the idea that what you're getting to is the idea that what you're getting to is the idea that there's something that appeals to people there's something that appeals to people there's something that appeals to people about the idea that we could be about the idea that we could be about the idea that we could be interplanetary. Like we interplanetary. Like we interplanetary. Like we we we share that we share the idea that we we share that we share the idea that we we share that we share the idea that people need something mythic and people need something mythic and people need something mythic and something to look forward to. We just something to look forward to. We just something to look forward to. We just think it should be something to look think it should be something to look think it should be something to look forward to here on Earth and it should forward to here on Earth and it should forward to here on Earth and it should be inclusive [laughter] and be inclusive [laughter] and be inclusive [laughter] and >> yeah [clears throat] because you don't >> yeah [clears throat] because you don't >> yeah [clears throat] because you don't you don't hear him talk about how the you don't hear him talk about how the you don't hear him talk about how the great future we could have here. It's great future we could have here. It's great future we could have here. It's all out there all out there all out there >> and there are very few people in >> and there are very few people in >> and there are very few people in politics today who or you know or in the politics today who or you know or in the politics today who or you know or in the corporate world who are talking about a corporate world who are talking about a corporate world who are talking about a vision that feels credible for how we vision that feels credible for how we vision that feels credible for how we could live together. It's like either

could live together. It's like either could live together. It's like either it's apocalypse or it's it's apocalypse or it's it's apocalypse or it's Sam Alman who realizes may maybe he Sam Alman who realizes may maybe he Sam Alman who realizes may maybe he talked too much about destroying talked too much about destroying talked too much about destroying everyone's jobs and is now saying you everyone's jobs and is now saying you everyone's jobs and is now saying you know AI is a magic genie that's going to know AI is a magic genie that's going to know AI is a magic genie that's going to grant you through wishes and you know grant you through wishes and you know grant you through wishes and you know something that feels like straight up something that feels like straight up something that feels like straight up fairy tale right um and so and I think fairy tale right um and so and I think fairy tale right um and so and I think we believe it's the job of you know a we believe it's the job of you know a we believe it's the job of you know a credible political project of the left credible political project of the left credible political project of the left to put forward a vision of the future to put forward a vision of the future to put forward a vision of the future for how we live together well on this for how we live together well on this for how we live together well on this planet, right? Um where we aren't planet, right? Um where we aren't planet, right? Um where we aren't engaged in some project of triaging who engaged in some project of triaging who engaged in some project of triaging who gets to live and who gets to die. Um gets to live and who gets to die. Um gets to live and who gets to die. Um where we actually figure out how to where we actually figure out how to where we actually figure out how to share our resources and thrive. It's share our resources and thrive. It's share our resources and thrive. It's possible to do that. We want to believe possible to do that. We want to believe possible to do that. We want to believe in the future, right? [laughter] We in the future, right? [laughter] We in the future, right? [laughter] We should. We have a right to believe in should. We have a right to believe in should. We have a right to believe in the future. And there's something the future. And there's something the future. And there's something treasonous about not believing in the treasonous about not believing in the treasonous about not believing in the future. So, I want to ask you a version future. So, I want to ask you a version future. So, I want to ask you a version of a question I asked Rebecca Snit of a question I asked Rebecca Snit of a question I asked Rebecca Snit earlier this year, which has to do with earlier this year, which has to do with earlier this year, which has to do with sort of the the language and terminology sort of the the language and terminology sort of the the language and terminology people use to describe their political people use to describe their political people use to describe their political opponents. And I, you know, I had said opponents. And I, you know, I had said opponents. And I, you know, I had said to her, asked her something about, you to her, asked her something about, you to her, asked her something about, you know, when you risk when you use such know, when you risk when you use such know, when you risk when you use such severe language or or harsh language, do severe language or or harsh language, do severe language or or harsh language, do you maybe risk just pushing people into you maybe risk just pushing people into you maybe risk just pushing people into their respective corners? and she, you their respective corners? and she, you their respective corners? and she, you know, basically said, you know, without know, basically said, you know, without know, basically said, you know, without using the words, that's kind of a dumb using the words, that's kind of a dumb using the words, that's kind of a dumb question. You know, you got to call a question. You know, you got to call a question. You know, you got to call a spade a spade. And yet, I want to ask spade a spade. And yet, I want to ask spade a spade. And yet, I want to ask you a version of that question. Do do you a version of that question. Do do you a version of that question. Do do you have any concern that using language

you have any concern that using language you have any concern that using language like end times or fascism makes it like end times or fascism makes it like end times or fascism makes it easier for people perhaps to dismiss easier for people perhaps to dismiss easier for people perhaps to dismiss your arguments? your arguments? your arguments? >> You know, this book is a warning. Um, >> You know, this book is a warning. Um, >> You know, this book is a warning. Um, and it's not about a bunch of fringe and it's not about a bunch of fringe and it's not about a bunch of fringe characters. Um, it is, um, you know, we characters. Um, it is, um, you know, we characters. Um, it is, um, you know, we are quoting in their own words the are quoting in their own words the are quoting in their own words the wealthiest people in the history of the wealthiest people in the history of the wealthiest people in the history of the world, the president of the United world, the president of the United world, the president of the United States, um, the prime minister of States, um, the prime minister of States, um, the prime minister of Israel. We have watched as people with Israel. We have watched as people with Israel. We have watched as people with previously like quite marginal belief previously like quite marginal belief previously like quite marginal belief systems, systems, systems, we've watched them gain more and more we've watched them gain more and more we've watched them gain more and more power, political and and economic and power, political and and economic and power, political and and economic and move from the margins to the center of move from the margins to the center of move from the margins to the center of power and to gain very powerful um roles power and to gain very powerful um roles power and to gain very powerful um roles in government. I mean, you say end times in government. I mean, you say end times in government. I mean, you say end times is such an extreme word. You know, is such an extreme word. You know, is such an extreme word. You know, [clears throat] half of half of [clears throat] half of half of [clears throat] half of half of Christians in America believe we're in Christians in America believe we're in Christians in America believe we're in the end of times. like these like it the end of times. like these like it the end of times. like these like it might seem like a marginal belief system might seem like a marginal belief system might seem like a marginal belief system where you're sitting but it's these are where you're sitting but it's these are where you're sitting but it's these are not marginal ideas. These are not marginal ideas. These are not marginal ideas. These are >> that's a funky statistic though. Can I >> that's a funky statistic though. Can I >> that's a funky statistic though. Can I just I was looking up because I saw I just I was looking up because I saw I just I was looking up because I saw I saw in the book and I was like how can saw in the book and I was like how can saw in the book and I was like how can that be true? And I think there's um that be true? And I think there's um that be true? And I think there's um >> it sort of is very dependent on how a >> it sort of is very dependent on how a >> it sort of is very dependent on how a given Christian interprets end times.

given Christian interprets end times. given Christian interprets end times. You know, a Catholic might believe that You know, a Catholic might believe that You know, a Catholic might believe that we've been in end times since Jesus we've been in end times since Jesus we've been in end times since Jesus ascended 2,000 years ago. So it it might ascended 2,000 years ago. So it it might ascended 2,000 years ago. So it it might be a little murky to say, you know, half be a little murky to say, you know, half be a little murky to say, you know, half of Christians believe we're in end of Christians believe we're in end of Christians believe we're in end times. It does it's not necessarily the times. It does it's not necessarily the times. It does it's not necessarily the same thing as meaning they want to or same thing as meaning they want to or same thing as meaning they want to or like like like >> accelerate accelerated. But I but I just >> accelerate accelerated. But I but I just >> accelerate accelerated. But I but I just don't think that these are these are don't think that these are these are don't think that these are these are marginal ideas. I I think that these are marginal ideas. I I think that these are marginal ideas. I I think that these are these are some of the most powerful these are some of the most powerful these are some of the most powerful stories in our culture. They're stories in our culture. They're stories in our culture. They're incredibly deeply encoded. Like whether incredibly deeply encoded. Like whether incredibly deeply encoded. Like whether we're religious or not, they're kind of we're religious or not, they're kind of we're religious or not, they're kind of in us. Um, and there's a kind of almost in us. Um, and there's a kind of almost in us. Um, and there's a kind of almost drive to repeat them because the because drive to repeat them because the because drive to repeat them because the because the stories are so powerful. So, you the stories are so powerful. So, you the stories are so powerful. So, you know, part of what we're saying is like know, part of what we're saying is like know, part of what we're saying is like we need mythic stories of our own. You we need mythic stories of our own. You we need mythic stories of our own. You know, it can't just be like, yeah, we know, it can't just be like, yeah, we know, it can't just be like, yeah, we need universal healthcare and, you know, need universal healthcare and, you know, need universal healthcare and, you know, we need affordable lives, but we also we need affordable lives, but we also we need affordable lives, but we also need myth. We also um we need to recover need myth. We also um we need to recover need myth. We also um we need to recover our sense of wonder and awe at this our sense of wonder and awe at this our sense of wonder and awe at this world. Um, and so, you know, that's why world. Um, and so, you know, that's why world. Um, and so, you know, that's why it's worth looking at. It's I think it's worth looking at. It's I think it's worth looking at. It's I think there's things that we can learn from there's things that we can learn from there's things that we can learn from what is working, what is resonating.

what is working, what is resonating. what is working, what is resonating. >> The idea that um the end times is kind >> The idea that um the end times is kind >> The idea that um the end times is kind of like a story that we all it it's just of like a story that we all it it's just of like a story that we all it it's just in in our bones in some sense. I think in in our bones in some sense. I think in in our bones in some sense. I think jibes with a a feeling that so many of jibes with a a feeling that so many of jibes with a a feeling that so many of us have that yes, we are in a serious us have that yes, we are in a serious us have that yes, we are in a serious ecological crisis in addition to ecological crisis in addition to ecological crisis in addition to whatever other crises we're in at the whatever other crises we're in at the whatever other crises we're in at the moment. And if if if that's something moment. And if if if that's something moment. And if if if that's something that you know huge numbers of people that you know huge numbers of people that you know huge numbers of people feel across the political spectrum, feel across the political spectrum, feel across the political spectrum, >> why is it the case that the the left >> why is it the case that the the left >> why is it the case that the the left does not seem to have been able to does not seem to have been able to does not seem to have been able to harness that of a apocalyptic energy in harness that of a apocalyptic energy in harness that of a apocalyptic energy in the way that the people on the right the way that the people on the right the way that the people on the right that you're pointing to h have been able that you're pointing to h have been able that you're pointing to h have been able to both harness it and you know grab to both harness it and you know grab to both harness it and you know grab control of of so many of of the levers control of of so many of of the levers control of of so many of of the levers of power. of power. of power. >> Um, I think our I think building >> Um, I think our I think building >> Um, I think our I think building multi-racial democracy is harder than multi-racial democracy is harder than multi-racial democracy is harder than building fascism or authoritarianism, building fascism or authoritarianism, building fascism or authoritarianism, right? Because we don't want to just right? Because we don't want to just right? Because we don't want to just grab the levers of power. You want to grab the levers of power. You want to grab the levers of power. You want to share power and you have to figure out share power and you have to figure out share power and you have to figure out how to live together. So, I think our how to live together. So, I think our how to live together. So, I think our project is is just inherently um more project is is just inherently um more project is is just inherently um more difficult. And I think that the I mean difficult. And I think that the I mean difficult. And I think that the I mean in answer to your question about why in answer to your question about why in answer to your question about why can't why hasn't the left harnessed it.

can't why hasn't the left harnessed it. can't why hasn't the left harnessed it. I mean, I would say as somebody who's I mean, I would say as somebody who's I mean, I would say as somebody who's been on the left for a long time that been on the left for a long time that been on the left for a long time that we've got we've gotten closer um than at we've got we've gotten closer um than at we've got we've gotten closer um than at any other point, you know, um we've any other point, you know, um we've any other point, you know, um we've gotten, you know, heartbreakingly close, gotten, you know, heartbreakingly close, gotten, you know, heartbreakingly close, right? I mean, for those of us who were right? I mean, for those of us who were right? I mean, for those of us who were part of the Bernie Sanders campaign, I part of the Bernie Sanders campaign, I part of the Bernie Sanders campaign, I was living in the US at the time and and was living in the US at the time and and was living in the US at the time and and was was part of that campaign as as, you was was part of that campaign as as, you was was part of that campaign as as, you know, a a surrogate for his for his know, a a surrogate for his for his know, a a surrogate for his for his Green New Deal program, which I felt was Green New Deal program, which I felt was Green New Deal program, which I felt was the kind of response [snorts] that both the kind of response [snorts] that both the kind of response [snorts] that both addressed emissions and people's addressed emissions and people's addressed emissions and people's economic needs. Um, but you know, in economic needs. Um, but you know, in economic needs. Um, but you know, in politics, like you don't get a prize for politics, like you don't get a prize for politics, like you don't get a prize for second place. Um, but I do think that second place. Um, but I do think that second place. Um, but I do think that this wave that Mumani has helped lead this wave that Mumani has helped lead this wave that Mumani has helped lead and this wave of DSA candidates who who and this wave of DSA candidates who who and this wave of DSA candidates who who who are winning in the primaries speaks who are winning in the primaries speaks who are winning in the primaries speaks to the fact that the left is a lot more to the fact that the left is a lot more to the fact that the left is a lot more serious about fighting fascism, right? serious about fighting fascism, right? serious about fighting fascism, right? though willingness to call it fascism, though willingness to call it fascism, though willingness to call it fascism, to call it genocide, to use the words to call it genocide, to use the words to call it genocide, to use the words describe reality, [snorts] um are describe reality, [snorts] um are describe reality, [snorts] um are actually far better at fighting fascism actually far better at fighting fascism actually far better at fighting fascism than a kind of a supposedly safe than a kind of a supposedly safe than a kind of a supposedly safe centrism that is collapsing around the centrism that is collapsing around the centrism that is collapsing around the world. Um because it does not speak to world. Um because it does not speak to world. Um because it does not speak to people's lived reality and what they're people's lived reality and what they're people's lived reality and what they're seeing with their own eyes. So yeah, I seeing with their own eyes. So yeah, I seeing with their own eyes. So yeah, I mean the language is not the end in mean the language is not the end in mean the language is not the end in itself. it's what the offer is in the itself. it's what the offer is in the itself. it's what the offer is in the face of it. It's that combination of

face of it. It's that combination of face of it. It's that combination of understanding the threat and understanding the threat and understanding the threat and understanding that there's actually understanding that there's actually understanding that there's actually something that we can do about it something that we can do about it something that we can do about it together. together. together. >> You also um point out in the book and >> You also um point out in the book and >> You also um point out in the book and and [laughter] I I think you mentioned and [laughter] I I think you mentioned and [laughter] I I think you mentioned earlier in the conversation that the the earlier in the conversation that the the earlier in the conversation that the the end times fascists or who you call the end times fascists or who you call the end times fascists or who you call the end times fascists still represent a end times fascists still represent a end times fascists still represent a sort of a minority even even on the sort of a minority even even on the sort of a minority even even on the right. So where do you see opportunities right. So where do you see opportunities right. So where do you see opportunities on the right for for push back or or do on the right for for push back or or do on the right for for push back or or do you see those on the right as as already you see those on the right as as already you see those on the right as as already actively in any way pushing back against actively in any way pushing back against actively in any way pushing back against end times fascists? end times fascists? end times fascists? >> The most awkward alliance is around the >> The most awkward alliance is around the >> The most awkward alliance is around the big tech companies and the mega base. big tech companies and the mega base. big tech companies and the mega base. They don't like the idea of being They don't like the idea of being They don't like the idea of being tracked by their phones, right? So tracked by their phones, right? So tracked by their phones, right? So there's definitely opportunities there there's definitely opportunities there there's definitely opportunities there and we are seeing it in in these local and we are seeing it in in these local and we are seeing it in in these local meetings which really interesting to me meetings which really interesting to me meetings which really interesting to me because you know having done the this because you know having done the this because you know having done the this research around the the the anti- research around the the the anti- research around the the the anti- vaccine anti-masking vaccine anti-masking vaccine anti-masking anti-COVID health measures move movement anti-COVID health measures move movement anti-COVID health measures move movement during COVID which then sort of rolls during COVID which then sort of rolls during COVID which then sort of rolls into a movement um for book banning and into a movement um for book banning and into a movement um for book banning and anti-trans rights and all of all of anti-trans rights and all of all of anti-trans rights and all of all of that.

that. that. Those were the those were the issues Those were the those were the issues Those were the those were the issues that were making people storm city hall, that were making people storm city hall, that were making people storm city hall, you know, and go to like a small, you you know, and go to like a small, you you know, and go to like a small, you know, town hall meeting that, you know, know, town hall meeting that, you know, know, town hall meeting that, you know, usually three people show up for and usually three people show up for and usually three people show up for and suddenly there are hundreds of people suddenly there are hundreds of people suddenly there are hundreds of people there screaming and they're furious. there screaming and they're furious. there screaming and they're furious. Today, the thing that is bringing people Today, the thing that is bringing people Today, the thing that is bringing people into their town hall meetings is into their town hall meetings is into their town hall meetings is opposition to the data center down the opposition to the data center down the opposition to the data center down the road. road. road. >> Yeah. I mean the you know we talk about >> Yeah. I mean the you know we talk about >> Yeah. I mean the you know we talk about data centers actually being sort of data centers actually being sort of data centers actually being sort of icons of this futurelessness right I icons of this futurelessness right I icons of this futurelessness right I mean it used to be during the you know mean it used to be during the you know mean it used to be during the you know 20th century it was like there was a 20th century it was like there was a 20th century it was like there was a kind of bargain you'd get a factory in kind of bargain you'd get a factory in kind of bargain you'd get a factory in the town and that meant sure there was the town and that meant sure there was the town and that meant sure there was some pollution and maybe some tax some pollution and maybe some tax some pollution and maybe some tax abatements but there were also jobs that abatements but there were also jobs that abatements but there were also jobs that supported your family even if the the supported your family even if the the supported your family even if the the wages weren't the best and you know wages weren't the best and you know wages weren't the best and you know going to Memphis for example where Elon going to Memphis for example where Elon going to Memphis for example where Elon Musk now has three supercomputers but Musk now has three supercomputers but Musk now has three supercomputers but meeting the the people there who are meeting the the people there who are meeting the the people there who are fighting against this development fighting against this development fighting against this development because Musk is powering them with gas because Musk is powering them with gas because Musk is powering them with gas turbines. You know, he's being sued for turbines. You know, he's being sued for turbines. You know, he's being sued for illegally operating them, right? So, illegally operating them, right? So, illegally operating them, right? So, they're they're releasing they're a lot they're they're releasing they're a lot they're they're releasing they're a lot of toxins into the air and you driving of toxins into the air and you driving of toxins into the air and you driving by them. They're just these huge, you by them. They're just these huge, you by them. They're just these huge, you know, enormous, right? Some of them are know, enormous, right? Some of them are know, enormous, right? Some of them are as big as 30 football fields and there's as big as 30 football fields and there's as big as 30 football fields and there's just there's basically no jobs. Like, just there's basically no jobs. Like, just there's basically no jobs. Like, what is the offer? And are there signs what is the offer? And are there signs what is the offer? And are there signs that you would be on the lookout for?

that you would be on the lookout for? that you would be on the lookout for? Sort of little um flares on on the Sort of little um flares on on the Sort of little um flares on on the horizon that would um horizon that would um horizon that would um give you clues to to the influence of give you clues to to the influence of give you clues to to the influence of end times fascists receding? Like what end times fascists receding? Like what end times fascists receding? Like what what would you see that would make you what would you see that would make you what would you see that would make you think, okay, their their power is think, okay, their their power is think, okay, their their power is diminishing? diminishing? diminishing? >> I mean, I think Minneapolis is a great >> I mean, I think Minneapolis is a great >> I mean, I think Minneapolis is a great example. I think that the Trump example. I think that the Trump example. I think that the Trump administration went into that assault administration went into that assault administration went into that assault thinking that it would be greeted thinking that it would be greeted thinking that it would be greeted gleefully at least by their base and gleefully at least by their base and gleefully at least by their base and that people would thrill at the video that people would thrill at the video that people would thrill at the video and you know sometimes AI generated and you know sometimes AI generated and you know sometimes AI generated images being uh circulated celebrating images being uh circulated celebrating images being uh circulated celebrating the violence and actually they over they the violence and actually they over they the violence and actually they over they they overreached you know um they shot they overreached you know um they shot they overreached you know um they shot people in the street and even some of people in the street and even some of people in the street and even some of their base were appalled by that. So I their base were appalled by that. So I their base were appalled by that. So I think we're seeing signs um that they're think we're seeing signs um that they're think we're seeing signs um that they're not they're definitely not infallible.

not they're definitely not infallible. not they're definitely not infallible. Um Um Um [sighs and gasps] I mean ultimately what [sighs and gasps] I mean ultimately what [sighs and gasps] I mean ultimately what we would like to see is some of these we would like to see is some of these we would like to see is some of these people being held accountable and this people being held accountable and this people being held accountable and this is it goes back to the attacks on the is it goes back to the attacks on the is it goes back to the attacks on the ICC and the criminal court and you know ICC and the criminal court and you know ICC and the criminal court and you know this constant assertion well we have this constant assertion well we have this constant assertion well we have immunity right immunity right immunity right >> that's why it matters when Mani says >> that's why it matters when Mani says >> that's why it matters when Mani says that Netanyahu belongs in the Hag and he that Netanyahu belongs in the Hag and he that Netanyahu belongs in the Hag and he should be arrested should be arrested should be arrested >> as I've said I agree with the ICC that >> as I've said I agree with the ICC that >> as I've said I agree with the ICC that Benjamin Netanyahu should be arrested Benjamin Netanyahu should be arrested Benjamin Netanyahu should be arrested [music] and tried for his crimes. For [music] and tried for his crimes. For [music] and tried for his crimes. For too long, we have not put forward our too long, we have not put forward our too long, we have not put forward our own vision for accountability, a serious own vision for accountability, a serious own vision for accountability, a serious one, using these institutions. Um, you one, using these institutions. Um, you one, using these institutions. Um, you know, what would it mean to really hold know, what would it mean to really hold know, what would it mean to really hold war criminals accountable and have it war criminals accountable and have it war criminals accountable and have it apply across the board, not only to apply across the board, not only to apply across the board, not only to people in Africa who commit crimes or people in Africa who commit crimes or people in Africa who commit crimes or the Philippines, but also the United the Philippines, but also the United the Philippines, but also the United States, also Israel. it would be the States, also Israel. it would be the States, also Israel. it would be the beginning of addressing such deep beginning of addressing such deep beginning of addressing such deep disillusionment right now because we are disillusionment right now because we are disillusionment right now because we are up against a very widespread feeling up against a very widespread feeling up against a very widespread feeling that there's nothing you can do right so that there's nothing you can do right so that there's nothing you can do right so doing a few things you know starts to doing a few things you know starts to doing a few things you know starts to break that spell um and it really does break that spell um and it really does break that spell um and it really does matter matter matter >> yeah even what you just said you know we >> yeah even what you just said you know we >> yeah even what you just said you know we have this widespread feeling that have this widespread feeling that have this widespread feeling that there's nothing you can do when you were there's nothing you can do when you were there's nothing you can do when you were just now saying you know how could uh just now saying you know how could uh just now saying you know how could uh you know American politicians be held you know American politicians be held you know American politicians be held accountable by the ICC you my my first accountable by the ICC you my my first accountable by the ICC you my my first thought is well that'll never Right.

thought is well that'll never Right. thought is well that'll never Right. >> But I think that, you know, I >> But I think that, you know, I >> But I think that, you know, I >> the >> the >> the >> I'm not saying it should or shouldn't >> I'm not saying it should or shouldn't >> I'm not saying it should or shouldn't happen. I'm just saying it's not happen. I'm just saying it's not happen. I'm just saying it's not >> Well, I mean, you know, sometimes things >> Well, I mean, you know, sometimes things >> Well, I mean, you know, sometimes things that seem improbable and impossible that seem improbable and impossible that seem improbable and impossible happen because people organize to make happen because people organize to make happen because people organize to make them. So, them. So, them. So, >> I don't think I mean, we didn't write >> I don't think I mean, we didn't write >> I don't think I mean, we didn't write the book because we think these people the book because we think these people the book because we think these people are fascinating. I mean, we we wrote are fascinating. I mean, we we wrote are fascinating. I mean, we we wrote this book because we want people to this book because we want people to this book because we want people to fight them and beat them. I mean, we fight them and beat them. I mean, we fight them and beat them. I mean, we think they're, think they're, think they're, >> you know, we we use this word that >> you know, we we use this word that >> you know, we we use this word that neither Astra nor I have ever used neither Astra nor I have ever used neither Astra nor I have ever used before because we're not nationalist before because we're not nationalist before because we're not nationalist people. um which is we call them traders people. um which is we call them traders people. um which is we call them traders but not traders to nation not traders to but not traders to nation not traders to but not traders to nation not traders to a flag um or a border but traders to a flag um or a border but traders to a flag um or a border but traders to creation like traders to life and so we creation like traders to life and so we creation like traders to life and so we spent a lot of time as Astra said spent a lot of time as Astra said spent a lot of time as Astra said looking at where this project is weak looking at where this project is weak looking at where this project is weak where it's strong is money weapons I where it's strong is money weapons I where it's strong is money weapons I mean there's a lot to be worried about mean there's a lot to be worried about mean there's a lot to be worried about right we're dealing with trillionaires right we're dealing with trillionaires right we're dealing with trillionaires we're dealing with people where like we're dealing with people where like we're dealing with people where like where where that wealth has merged with where where that wealth has merged with where where that wealth has merged with the most powerful military in the the most powerful military in the the most powerful military in the But But But even compared to and listen, I'm not even compared to and listen, I'm not even compared to and listen, I'm not nostalgic for for the last century's nostalgic for for the last century's nostalgic for for the last century's fascists. Let's be clear about that. But fascists. Let's be clear about that. But fascists. Let's be clear about that. But they had an offer to their base, you they had an offer to their base, you they had an offer to their base, you know, they were like, "Let's steal the know, they were like, "Let's steal the know, they were like, "Let's steal the homes of the Jews and the Slavs and live homes of the Jews and the Slavs and live homes of the Jews and the Slavs and live happily ever after, you know, in the happily ever after, you know, in the happily ever after, you know, in the your labrom Ukraine, right? The the your labrom Ukraine, right? The the your labrom Ukraine, right? The the people we're calling end times fascists people we're calling end times fascists people we're calling end times fascists don't have an offer to their base beyond don't have an offer to their base beyond don't have an offer to their base beyond really this sadism." And one of the really this sadism." And one of the really this sadism." And one of the through lines of the book is that the through lines of the book is that the through lines of the book is that the end times fascists are, you use the

end times fascists are, you use the end times fascists are, you use the word, sort of betraying the the world word, sort of betraying the the world word, sort of betraying the the world and the planet on which we live and and the planet on which we live and and the planet on which we live and they're not seeing the the beauty of it they're not seeing the the beauty of it they're not seeing the the beauty of it and and the things that that that truly and and the things that that that truly and and the things that that that truly make life worthwhile. So, at the risk of make life worthwhile. So, at the risk of make life worthwhile. So, at the risk of trying to bring things home on a on a trying to bring things home on a on a trying to bring things home on a on a slightly uh sentimental note, what are slightly uh sentimental note, what are slightly uh sentimental note, what are the things that that just you the things that that just you the things that that just you individually individually individually think, "Oh, no. This is what they're think, "Oh, no. This is what they're think, "Oh, no. This is what they're missing. This is this is what makes life missing. This is this is what makes life missing. This is this is what makes life worthwhile. If if only they could see worthwhile. If if only they could see worthwhile. If if only they could see what I see." M I mean I think a big one what I see." M I mean I think a big one what I see." M I mean I think a big one and it it's a you know we've we've and it it's a you know we've we've and it it's a you know we've we've touched on this already because it's a touched on this already because it's a touched on this already because it's a classic fascist trope which is the fear classic fascist trope which is the fear classic fascist trope which is the fear of the city, the fear of the urban. of the city, the fear of the urban. of the city, the fear of the urban. >> Um the fear of encountering people from >> Um the fear of encountering people from >> Um the fear of encountering people from different walks of life, strangers and I different walks of life, strangers and I different walks of life, strangers and I think that's you know there's [snorts] think that's you know there's [snorts] think that's you know there's [snorts] tremendous pleasure in that. And I do tremendous pleasure in that. And I do tremendous pleasure in that. And I do think that you know we we read about at think that you know we we read about at think that you know we we read about at length just how powerful the mom dining length just how powerful the mom dining length just how powerful the mom dining campaign was in kind of re-enchanting campaign was in kind of re-enchanting campaign was in kind of re-enchanting the city and not romanticizing it. Not the city and not romanticizing it. Not the city and not romanticizing it. Not saying it's perfect, like yes, you know, saying it's perfect, like yes, you know, saying it's perfect, like yes, you know, the subways have problems, but also, the subways have problems, but also, the subways have problems, but also, wow, you get to ride a subway and who wow, you get to ride a subway and who wow, you get to ride a subway and who knows what will happen and it will take knows what will happen and it will take knows what will happen and it will take you to some amazing place where you can you to some amazing place where you can you to some amazing place where you can eat something you can't make it home.

eat something you can't make it home. eat something you can't make it home. And so I think the the just encountering And so I think the the just encountering And so I think the the just encountering and and not fearing diversity, but and and not fearing diversity, but and and not fearing diversity, but reveling in it. Um and um absolutely reveling in it. Um and um absolutely reveling in it. Um and um absolutely this question of this question of this question of the more than human world of reveling in the more than human world of reveling in the more than human world of reveling in nature, but Naomi lives somewhere with nature, but Naomi lives somewhere with nature, but Naomi lives somewhere with really good nature. So I feel like she really good nature. So I feel like she really good nature. So I feel like she just has to take that one. just has to take that one. just has to take that one. [laughter and gasps] [laughter and gasps] [laughter and gasps] >> Oh my god, where to start? >> Oh my god, where to start? >> Oh my god, where to start? Yeah, I I I do I live in British Yeah, I I I do I live in British Yeah, I I I do I live in British Columbia. Um and my parents moved out Columbia. Um and my parents moved out Columbia. Um and my parents moved out out there. Um, I'd never been to to this out there. Um, I'd never been to to this out there. Um, I'd never been to to this like fairly wild part of Canada where like fairly wild part of Canada where like fairly wild part of Canada where where they moved to when they I was where they moved to when they I was where they moved to when they I was already in my 20s and have just become already in my 20s and have just become already in my 20s and have just become very committed to it. Um, so I think very committed to it. Um, so I think very committed to it. Um, so I think where I feel where I feel where I feel I honestly I feel the most um sadness I honestly I feel the most um sadness I honestly I feel the most um sadness and rage at at at a willingness to let and rage at at at a willingness to let and rage at at at a willingness to let it all burn or or or or to try to escape it all burn or or or or to try to escape it all burn or or or or to try to escape it is when I, you know, see a dorsal fin it is when I, you know, see a dorsal fin it is when I, you know, see a dorsal fin um of an orca, you know, slice through um of an orca, you know, slice through um of an orca, you know, slice through the the waters um of the of the sailor the the waters um of the of the sailor the the waters um of the of the sailor sea where where I'm fortunate enough to sea where where I'm fortunate enough to sea where where I'm fortunate enough to live or um just any of the sort of live or um just any of the sort of live or um just any of the sort of psychedelia of of this part of the psychedelia of of this part of the psychedelia of of this part of the natural world. I mean on the very very natural world. I mean on the very very natural world. I mean on the very very dark nights are the the the the water is dark nights are the the the the water is dark nights are the the the the water is completely bioluminescent.

completely bioluminescent. completely bioluminescent. Um and you look at your own limbs and Um and you look at your own limbs and Um and you look at your own limbs and they're made of pure light, you know, they're made of pure light, you know, they're made of pure light, you know, like no mushrooms required. like no mushrooms required. like no mushrooms required. So, uh, to me there's something it, you So, uh, to me there's something it, you So, uh, to me there's something it, you know, I think it is a, um, a tragedy for know, I think it is a, um, a tragedy for know, I think it is a, um, a tragedy for them and an existential crisis for us them and an existential crisis for us them and an existential crisis for us that the people who are closest to the that the people who are closest to the that the people who are closest to the [music] [music] [music] up to the levers of the of most power up to the levers of the of most power up to the levers of the of most power [music] on this planet [music] on this planet [music] on this planet are not enraptured by the beauty that is are not enraptured by the beauty that is are not enraptured by the beauty that is already here and all around us. get already here and all around us. get already here and all around us. get given [music] the book en raptured just given [music] the book en raptured just given [music] the book en raptured just maybe tell [laughter] telling choice of maybe tell [laughter] telling choice of maybe tell [laughter] telling choice of words but um but thank you very much for words but um but thank you very much for words but um but thank you very much for taking all the time to speak with me taking all the time to speak with me taking all the time to speak with me today I I really appreciate it today I I really appreciate it today I I really appreciate it >> thank you thanks for having us [music] >> that's Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor >> that's Naomi Klein and Astra Taylor [music] their new book end times fascism [music] their new book end times fascism [music] their new book end times fascism and the fight for the living world will and the fight for the living world will and the fight for the living world will be published on September 15th you can be published on September 15th you can be published on September 15th you can subscribe to our YouTube channel at subscribe to our YouTube channel at subscribe to our YouTube channel at youtube.com/atsyoltheinterpodcast to watch all of our episodes, including to watch all of our episodes, including this one. This conversation was produced this one. This conversation was produced this one. This conversation was produced by Paola [music] Neworf. It was edited by Paola [music] Neworf. It was edited by Paola [music] Neworf. It was edited by John Woo. Mixing by Sophia Landman.

by John Woo. Mixing by Sophia Landman. by John Woo. Mixing by Sophia Landman. [music] Original music by Dan Powell and [music] Original music by Dan Powell and [music] Original music by Dan Powell and Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Marian Lozano. Photography by Philip Montgomery. The rest of the team is Pria Montgomery. The rest of the team is Pria Montgomery. The rest of the team is Pria Matthew, Seth [music] Kelly, Joe Munoz, Matthew, Seth [music] Kelly, Joe Munoz, Matthew, Seth [music] Kelly, Joe Munoz, Wyatt Orm, Amy Marino, Eddie Kostas, Wyatt Orm, Amy Marino, Eddie Kostas, Wyatt Orm, Amy Marino, Eddie Kostas, Gabby Contrarus, Kathleen O'Brien, and Gabby Contrarus, Kathleen O'Brien, and Gabby Contrarus, Kathleen O'Brien, and Brooke [music] Mers. Our executive Brooke [music] Mers. Our executive Brooke [music] Mers. Our executive producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, producer is Allison Benedict. Next week, Lulu talks to Aaron Sorcin about his new Lulu talks to Aaron Sorcin about his new Lulu talks to Aaron Sorcin about his new movie, The Social Reckoning. I'm David movie, The Social Reckoning. I'm David movie, The Social Reckoning. I'm David Marches, and this is the interview from Marches, and this is the interview from Marches, and this is the interview from the New York [music] Times.