Rev. Billy Cerveny: Satan’s Attacks, Transgenderism, Seeing the Supernatural & Hearing God’s Voice

We've uh been close friends for almost We've uh been close friends for almost 40 years, 39 years since the mid 80s. 40 years, 39 years since the mid 80s. 40 years, 39 years since the mid 80s. And uh I would say you were the I didn't And uh I would say you were the I didn't And uh I would say you were the I didn't imagine you as a priest. I would say imagine you as a priest. I would say imagine you as a priest. I would say >> that makes two of us. >> that makes two of us. >> that makes two of us. >> Then about a month ago, your godfathered >> Then about a month ago, your godfathered >> Then about a month ago, your godfathered one of my children. You performed the one of my children. You performed the one of my children. You performed the wedding ceremony for that child. wedding ceremony for that child. wedding ceremony for that child. >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> Awesome. >> One of the great moments of my life. How >> One of the great moments of my life. How >> One of the great moments of my life. How did you get here? Like I don't really did you get here? Like I don't really did you get here? Like I don't really know anybody who's had more jobs, know anybody who's had more jobs, know anybody who's had more jobs, vision. I thought you were going to be a vision. I thought you were going to be a vision. I thought you were going to be a philosopher, a country music star. I philosopher, a country music star. I philosopher, a country music star. I Well, brother, if you had told me when Well, brother, if you had told me when Well, brother, if you had told me when we met and we first started hanging out we met and we first started hanging out we met and we first started hanging out that I'd end up doing what I'm doing that I'd end up doing what I'm doing that I'd end up doing what I'm doing now, I'd have told you you got hit in now, I'd have told you you got hit in now, I'd have told you you got hit in the head. the head. the head. >> Oh, I I'm aware of that. >> Oh, I I'm aware of that. >> Oh, I I'm aware of that. >> But, you know, God has a sense of humor >> But, you know, God has a sense of humor >> But, you know, God has a sense of humor and a profound sense of irony. And uh and a profound sense of irony. And uh and a profound sense of irony. And uh you know, over the years, I'd spent you know, over the years, I'd spent you know, over the years, I'd spent >> profound sense of irony. >> profound sense of irony. >> profound sense of irony. >> It's true, though. It's true. And uh >> It's true, though. It's true. And uh >> It's true, though. It's true. And uh >> it's a picture of his grace. You know, I >> it's a picture of his grace. You know, I >> it's a picture of his grace. You know, I I spent a lot of my years as a I spent a lot of my years as a I spent a lot of my years as a journalist, as a and most of my journalist, as a and most of my journalist, as a and most of my professional life in the music business.

professional life in the music business. professional life in the music business. >> But I was living in Atlanta years ago >> But I was living in Atlanta years ago >> But I was living in Atlanta years ago when I just started playing music. You when I just started playing music. You when I just started playing music. You remember these those years? And I was remember these those years? And I was remember these those years? And I was living in this sort of converted living in this sort of converted living in this sort of converted greenhouse, a 400 square ft apartment greenhouse, a 400 square ft apartment greenhouse, a 400 square ft apartment that the the floor was still slanted to that the the floor was still slanted to that the the floor was still slanted to where they'd water the plants and the where they'd water the plants and the where they'd water the plants and the water would still run out. And I water would still run out. And I water would still run out. And I remember I had just gone into the music remember I had just gone into the music remember I had just gone into the music business. I had given up a lot to do it. business. I had given up a lot to do it. business. I had given up a lot to do it. And I was not in a good place. And uh And I was not in a good place. And uh And I was not in a good place. And uh really asking a lot of questions like, really asking a lot of questions like, really asking a lot of questions like, God, what what is this? Like who am I? God, what what is this? Like who am I? God, what what is this? Like who am I? What is this supposed to be? And I I What is this supposed to be? And I I What is this supposed to be? And I I remember that room remember that room remember that room became a monastery in my life. And God became a monastery in my life. And God became a monastery in my life. And God sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I sort of grabbed me by the throat, as I like to say, and just kind of peeled like to say, and just kind of peeled like to say, and just kind of peeled back the curtain and just just began to back the curtain and just just began to back the curtain and just just began to reveal things to me that about who he reveal things to me that about who he reveal things to me that about who he was and who Jesus was that that I had was and who Jesus was that that I had was and who Jesus was that that I had heard my whole life, but they just never heard my whole life, but they just never heard my whole life, but they just never made sense. I mean, I grew up in the made sense. I mean, I grew up in the made sense. I mean, I grew up in the church. My father was a priest. I was a church. My father was a priest. I was a church. My father was a priest. I was a was a bishop. was a bishop. was a bishop. >> He was a bishop. He was a bishop of >> He was a bishop. He was a bishop of >> He was a bishop. He was a bishop of Florida. And uh you know it's like you Florida. And uh you know it's like you Florida. And uh you know it's like you know it's like walking around your know it's like walking around your know it's like walking around your parents house and you see fine pieces of parents house and you see fine pieces of parents house and you see fine pieces of furniture that you just walk by so many furniture that you just walk by so many furniture that you just walk by so many times you don't notice them anymore.

times you don't notice them anymore. times you don't notice them anymore. That's kind of what faith became to me That's kind of what faith became to me That's kind of what faith became to me as a young person. I I uh at least the as a young person. I I uh at least the as a young person. I I uh at least the language of faith language of faith language of faith >> and words like grace and forgiveness. >> and words like grace and forgiveness. >> and words like grace and forgiveness. And I had just heard it so much I just And I had just heard it so much I just And I had just heard it so much I just couldn't couldn't understand the couldn't couldn't understand the couldn't couldn't understand the implications of them implications of them implications of them until I went off in to college and uh until I went off in to college and uh until I went off in to college and uh you know that's where we met but uh and you know that's where we met but uh and you know that's where we met but uh and those were the prodigal years man you those were the prodigal years man you those were the prodigal years man you know and uh know and uh know and uh >> fair yeah very fair. The prodigal was a >> fair yeah very fair. The prodigal was a >> fair yeah very fair. The prodigal was a wimp we uh we really went for it. No but wimp we uh we really went for it. No but wimp we uh we really went for it. No but we uh we uh we uh >> really did and uh but God was faithful >> really did and uh but God was faithful >> really did and uh but God was faithful in all that time that through the in all that time that through the in all that time that through the journalism and into back up to Atlanta. journalism and into back up to Atlanta. journalism and into back up to Atlanta. And I remember living in that in that uh And I remember living in that in that uh And I remember living in that in that uh apartment apartment apartment and and and falling on my knees and just saying, falling on my knees and just saying, falling on my knees and just saying, "Lord, either you are who you say you "Lord, either you are who you say you "Lord, either you are who you say you are, or this is the biggest lie are, or this is the biggest lie are, or this is the biggest lie perpetrated on humanity, and I'm going perpetrated on humanity, and I'm going perpetrated on humanity, and I'm going to go with the you are who you say you to go with the you are who you say you to go with the you are who you say you are." And he began to teach me this the are." And he began to teach me this the are." And he began to teach me this the the truth of forgiveness and the truth the truth of forgiveness and the truth the truth of forgiveness and the truth of grace and what it meant uh to walk in of grace and what it meant uh to walk in of grace and what it meant uh to walk in Jesus and that what it meant to be saved Jesus and that what it meant to be saved Jesus and that what it meant to be saved and what it meant to have a relationship and what it meant to have a relationship and what it meant to have a relationship with him and to to have a soul that was with him and to to have a soul that was with him and to to have a soul that was worth far more than trying to satisfy it worth far more than trying to satisfy it worth far more than trying to satisfy it with success in music or you know with success in music or you know with success in music or you know success in whatever field it was. And uh success in whatever field it was. And uh success in whatever field it was. And uh I remember sitting there thinking to I remember sitting there thinking to I remember sitting there thinking to myself, myself, myself, "God, you're this good. Like, are you "God, you're this good. Like, are you "God, you're this good. Like, are you this good? Are you this good?" And this good? Are you this good?" And this good? Are you this good?" And just feeling him in my heart just

just feeling him in my heart just just feeling him in my heart just nodding silently with me. And I knew in nodding silently with me. And I knew in nodding silently with me. And I knew in that moment my life was different. I that moment my life was different. I that moment my life was different. I didn't know what it was going to look didn't know what it was going to look didn't know what it was going to look like. And then when I moved to like. And then when I moved to like. And then when I moved to Nashville, I played music for a bunch of Nashville, I played music for a bunch of Nashville, I played music for a bunch of years after that. years after that. years after that. But during that time, uh the Lord just But during that time, uh the Lord just But during that time, uh the Lord just kept taking me deeper and deeper. And I kept taking me deeper and deeper. And I kept taking me deeper and deeper. And I started getting involved, used the music started getting involved, used the music started getting involved, used the music to go into ministry. And I did a lot of to go into ministry. And I did a lot of to go into ministry. And I did a lot of work with a ministry called Young Life. work with a ministry called Young Life. work with a ministry called Young Life. And I did a lot of a lot of uh summers And I did a lot of a lot of uh summers And I did a lot of a lot of uh summers were, you know, talking to kids about were, you know, talking to kids about were, you know, talking to kids about the gospel. And during that time, I met the gospel. And during that time, I met the gospel. And during that time, I met my wife out in Colorado. And it was my wife out in Colorado. And it was my wife out in Colorado. And it was obviously a life-changing experience. obviously a life-changing experience. obviously a life-changing experience. And she's wonderful. And we began this And she's wonderful. And we began this And she's wonderful. And we began this ask asking a question like, "Hey, what ask asking a question like, "Hey, what ask asking a question like, "Hey, what is what does God have for us? Like where is what does God have for us? Like where is what does God have for us? Like where where is he taking us?" And the concept, where is he taking us?" And the concept, where is he taking us?" And the concept, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, the idea of seminary for me, I mean, it's like I said, you knew me and uh you it's like I said, you knew me and uh you it's like I said, you knew me and uh you know, that was completely not in the in know, that was completely not in the in know, that was completely not in the in the cards. the cards. the cards. >> No. And and the context is even bigger >> No. And and the context is even bigger >> No. And and the context is even bigger from an outside point of view. Like you from an outside point of view. Like you from an outside point of view. Like you are the son of a great man of a are the son of a great man of a are the son of a great man of a well-known man. well-known man. well-known man. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> A big figure.

>> A big figure. >> A big figure. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Was at his funeral um this winter and it >> Was at his funeral um this winter and it >> Was at his funeral um this winter and it was packed packed cathedral. It's a guy was packed packed cathedral. It's a guy was packed packed cathedral. It's a guy who's a big big man. You look exactly who's a big big man. You look exactly who's a big big man. You look exactly like your dad, which is also kind of like your dad, which is also kind of like your dad, which is also kind of weird. weird. weird. >> I hear that. and now you are dressed >> I hear that. and now you are dressed >> I hear that. and now you are dressed exactly like you're so it's like exactly like you're so it's like exactly like you're so it's like >> true >> true >> true >> that's kind of a I don't know it's weird >> that's kind of a I don't know it's weird >> that's kind of a I don't know it's weird to be the son of someone like that and to be the son of someone like that and to be the son of someone like that and you don't think you're going to wind up you don't think you're going to wind up you don't think you're going to wind up being that thing right being that thing right being that thing right >> yeah no he was a great man I I uh but >> yeah no he was a great man I I uh but >> yeah no he was a great man I I uh but that is part of it you know to to grow that is part of it you know to to grow that is part of it you know to to grow up in that and to to watch my dad you up in that and to to watch my dad you up in that and to to watch my dad you know he was a bishop so I'd watch my dad know he was a bishop so I'd watch my dad know he was a bishop so I'd watch my dad process wearing a miter and all that process wearing a miter and all that process wearing a miter and all that kind of you know but he was just my dad kind of you know but he was just my dad kind of you know but he was just my dad yeah yeah yeah >> you know so people say what was it like >> you know so people say what was it like >> you know so people say what was it like growing up under that I I don't know I I growing up under that I I don't know I I growing up under that I I don't know I I didn't know any different and uh but I didn't know any different and uh but I didn't know any different and uh but I do know that you know spiritually uh as do know that you know spiritually uh as do know that you know spiritually uh as I grew and you know my father you know I grew and you know my father you know I grew and you know my father you know like any son know cobbler son has no like any son know cobbler son has no like any son know cobbler son has no shoes right shoes right shoes right >> you think you know I'll figure it out on >> you think you know I'll figure it out on >> you think you know I'll figure it out on my own and you you you leave and uh but my own and you you you leave and uh but my own and you you you leave and uh but as I do what I do now and I look back as I do what I do now and I look back as I do what I do now and I look back I'm humbled by uh the life he lived and I'm humbled by uh the life he lived and I'm humbled by uh the life he lived and the wisdom he had. I love my dad and you the wisdom he had. I love my dad and you the wisdom he had. I love my dad and you know, as you mentioned, he died, you know, as you mentioned, he died, you know, as you mentioned, he died, you know, a number of months ago and uh I know, a number of months ago and uh I know, a number of months ago and uh I have such tremendous respect for what he have such tremendous respect for what he have such tremendous respect for what he went through. Now that I'm in ministry, went through. Now that I'm in ministry, went through. Now that I'm in ministry, I look back and I and I'm like, how did I look back and I and I'm like, how did I look back and I and I'm like, how did you do it? How did you pull this off?

you do it? How did you pull this off? you do it? How did you pull this off? How did you hold a family together? How How did you hold a family together? How How did you hold a family together? How did you, did you, did you, >> you know, >> you know, >> you know, sit in the the chair that you sat in and sit in the the chair that you sat in and sit in the the chair that you sat in and lead a church in the way that you led a lead a church in the way that you led a lead a church in the way that you led a church with all the things pulling on church with all the things pulling on church with all the things pulling on you? And you know it when you have an you? And you know it when you have an you? And you know it when you have an adult perspective, it brings a lot of adult perspective, it brings a lot of adult perspective, it brings a lot of hum a lot of humility, right? Have you hum a lot of humility, right? Have you hum a lot of humility, right? Have you uh retroactively assessed your childhood uh retroactively assessed your childhood uh retroactively assessed your childhood and said, "Oh, I wish I'd been more and said, "Oh, I wish I'd been more and said, "Oh, I wish I'd been more grateful." Well, you know, the thing grateful." Well, you know, the thing grateful." Well, you know, the thing about, you know, so my father was an about, you know, so my father was an about, you know, so my father was an Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal Episcopal bishop and the Episcopal church is very eclectic, right? And so church is very eclectic, right? And so church is very eclectic, right? And so my house was this revolving door of my house was this revolving door of my house was this revolving door of different people. So like one weekend different people. So like one weekend different people. So like one weekend we'd have you know a monk come stay on we'd have you know a monk come stay on we'd have you know a monk come stay on our house and another week we'd have our house and another week we'd have our house and another week we'd have some high church bells and smells some high church bells and smells some high church bells and smells Anglican. another week we'd have some, Anglican. another week we'd have some, Anglican. another week we'd have some, you know, charismatics, you know, you know, charismatics, you know, you know, charismatics, you know, praying in tongues on our floor and and praying in tongues on our floor and and praying in tongues on our floor and and I remember, you know, sort of getting I remember, you know, sort of getting I remember, you know, sort of getting older and becoming a little self-aware older and becoming a little self-aware older and becoming a little self-aware and asking the question like, "What are and asking the question like, "What are and asking the question like, "What are we, man?" Like, "What is this?" You we, man?" Like, "What is this?" You we, man?" Like, "What is this?" You know, but it was this beautiful picture know, but it was this beautiful picture know, but it was this beautiful picture in hindsight of in hindsight of in hindsight of >> of the family of God and just how >> of the family of God and just how >> of the family of God and just how diverse it was and how how many diverse it was and how how many diverse it was and how how many expressions that was. And I that was an expressions that was. And I that was an expressions that was. And I that was an invaluable experience. And my dad uh he invaluable experience. And my dad uh he invaluable experience. And my dad uh he loved people very well in that way. He loved people very well in that way. He loved people very well in that way. He led people very well.

led people very well. led people very well. And I don't I I tell you this. There's And I don't I I tell you this. There's And I don't I I tell you this. There's very few times in my life or many times very few times in my life or many times very few times in my life or many times in my life I should say that I would be in my life I should say that I would be in my life I should say that I would be somewhere and I would introduce myself somewhere and I would introduce myself somewhere and I would introduce myself to someone and it was not uncommon some to someone and it was not uncommon some to someone and it was not uncommon some someone come to me go your last name is someone come to me go your last name is someone come to me go your last name is Cody and they'd pull me aside and say Cody and they'd pull me aside and say Cody and they'd pull me aside and say your dad you know telling me something your dad you know telling me something your dad you know telling me something that he did for me and I'd be in some that he did for me and I'd be in some that he did for me and I'd be in some random state or my mother who was you random state or my mother who was you random state or my mother who was you know partner in ministry with him who's know partner in ministry with him who's know partner in ministry with him who's an exceptional woman. an exceptional woman. an exceptional woman. >> Exceptional. >> Exceptional. >> Exceptional. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> One of the rare people in the world. >> One of the rare people in the world. >> One of the rare people in the world. >> This is true. And uh but that really >> This is true. And uh but that really >> This is true. And uh but that really really impacted me just thinking really impacted me just thinking really impacted me just thinking one from my own lens that we want to one from my own lens that we want to one from my own lens that we want to live lives that are impactful not just live lives that are impactful not just live lives that are impactful not just things that we we don't want to just things that we we don't want to just things that we we don't want to just accumulate. We don't want to just you accumulate. We don't want to just you accumulate. We don't want to just you know try to attain whatever mental know try to attain whatever mental know try to attain whatever mental picture of success is but what does it picture of success is but what does it picture of success is but what does it mean to leave an impact that where you mean to leave an impact that where you mean to leave an impact that where you leave a place or you leave a person or leave a place or you leave a person or leave a place or you leave a person or you that you say hey man these people you that you say hey man these people you that you say hey man these people are impacted with the gospel and my dad are impacted with the gospel and my dad are impacted with the gospel and my dad did that for sure. How would you ever did that for sure. How would you ever did that for sure. How would you ever wake up and put on your collar and think wake up and put on your collar and think wake up and put on your collar and think wow I I've like I guess all middle-aged wow I I've like I guess all middle-aged wow I I've like I guess all middle-aged men realize I've become my dad but I men realize I've become my dad but I men realize I've become my dad but I mean you literally have. There's a lot mean you literally have. There's a lot mean you literally have. There's a lot of times where I will it's again it's of times where I will it's again it's of times where I will it's again it's surreal you know I think being a a surreal you know I think being a a surreal you know I think being a a priest or doing this I think he probably priest or doing this I think he probably priest or doing this I think he probably had the same experience is you're never had the same experience is you're never had the same experience is you're never there's never a moment where you're not there's never a moment where you're not there's never a moment where you're not at least I hope not you're struck by the at least I hope not you're struck by the at least I hope not you're struck by the irony of it where you you you know what irony of it where you you you know what irony of it where you you you know what I mean you put put your collar on and I mean you put put your collar on and I mean you put put your collar on and and you you think to yourself like Lord and you you think to yourself like Lord

and you you think to yourself like Lord you really are calling me to do this cuz you really are calling me to do this cuz you really are calling me to do this cuz I know me you know I know I know the way I know me you know I know I know the way I know me you know I know I know the way I am I know my you know the internal I am I know my you know the internal I am I know my you know the internal realities for me. I know where I've realities for me. I know where I've realities for me. I know where I've been, but that's, you know, much like my been, but that's, you know, much like my been, but that's, you know, much like my dad, I think that was very much in front dad, I think that was very much in front dad, I think that was very much in front of him most of his life, too. He would of him most of his life, too. He would of him most of his life, too. He would always say you what he did and where he always say you what he did and where he always say you what he did and where he was was just a was a poster of God's was was just a was a poster of God's was was just a was a poster of God's grace. You know, he was a poster child grace. You know, he was a poster child grace. You know, he was a poster child for God's grace. And I never fully for God's grace. And I never fully for God's grace. And I never fully understood that until as now that I'm as understood that until as now that I'm as understood that until as now that I'm as an adult, as a minister, I'm thinking to an adult, as a minister, I'm thinking to an adult, as a minister, I'm thinking to myself, I absolutely, it's a picture of myself, I absolutely, it's a picture of myself, I absolutely, it's a picture of grace. It's got to be one of life's grace. It's got to be one of life's grace. It's got to be one of life's greatest blessings to really come to greatest blessings to really come to greatest blessings to really come to understand your own father. That's understand your own father. That's understand your own father. That's something that most men never get. something that most men never get. something that most men never get. >> It's true. It's uh that's something all >> It's true. It's uh that's something all >> It's true. It's uh that's something all men carry is, you know, the spent a men carry is, you know, the spent a men carry is, you know, the spent a lifetime wrestling is the relationships lifetime wrestling is the relationships lifetime wrestling is the relationships with their dads. And with their dads. And with their dads. And >> who was this man who was the center of >> who was this man who was the center of >> who was this man who was the center of my world? my world? my world? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Who this reference point? And I think >> Who this reference point? And I think >> Who this reference point? And I think the, you know, we all of our lives, the, you know, we all of our lives, the, you know, we all of our lives, especially as little kids, you grow up especially as little kids, you grow up especially as little kids, you grow up looking at your dad as these superheroes looking at your dad as these superheroes looking at your dad as these superheroes and these guys that wear kind of a red and these guys that wear kind of a red and these guys that wear kind of a red cape and then there's this moment that cape and then there's this moment that cape and then there's this moment that you catch up with them and then you you catch up with them and then you you catch up with them and then you realize them and you and then you see realize them and you and then you see realize them and you and then you see your parents humil or humanity.

your parents humil or humanity. your parents humil or humanity. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And you look at your dad and you see >> And you look at your dad and you see >> And you look at your dad and you see that, oh, you're you know, you're you're that, oh, you're you know, you're you're that, oh, you're you know, you're you're this paradox of of of this paradox of of of this paradox of of of greatness and brokenness. greatness and brokenness. greatness and brokenness. And I think the real where the coin And I think the real where the coin And I think the real where the coin dropped for me was when my dad began to dropped for me was when my dad began to dropped for me was when my dad began to be able to share like these were the be able to share like these were the be able to share like these were the struggles of my life. This is where it struggles of my life. This is where it struggles of my life. This is where it was hard and this is where God met me was hard and this is where God met me was hard and this is where God met me and this is where uh he just owned his and this is where uh he just owned his and this is where uh he just owned his humanity in open ways and and uh humanity in open ways and and uh humanity in open ways and and uh directly to you. directly to you. directly to you. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> That's pretty wonderful. >> That's pretty wonderful. >> That's pretty wonderful. >> It is wonderful. And I think that'll >> It is wonderful. And I think that'll >> It is wonderful. And I think that'll that's a really freeing experience for a that's a really freeing experience for a that's a really freeing experience for a son. son. son. >> It's a rare experience. >> It's a rare experience. >> It's a rare experience. >> Very rare experience. H Yeah. It's good. >> Very rare experience. H Yeah. It's good. >> Very rare experience. H Yeah. It's good. I think that you know as father you know I think that you know as father you know I think that you know as father you know as you have children as well as you have children as well as you have children as well and especially when you have a son uh and especially when you have a son uh and especially when you have a son uh you know looking at your son it's like you know looking at your son it's like you know looking at your son it's like staring in a mirror and there's moments staring in a mirror and there's moments staring in a mirror and there's moments where they look at you and you realize where they look at you and you realize where they look at you and you realize oh they're looking at me asking me what oh they're looking at me asking me what oh they're looking at me asking me what it means to be a man. And you have those it means to be a man. And you have those it means to be a man. And you have those moments these sort of moments of moments these sort of moments of moments these sort of moments of existential horror where you're like I'm existential horror where you're like I'm existential horror where you're like I'm not sure I know myself.

not sure I know myself. not sure I know myself. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Right. And so most of us do our best >> Right. And so most of us do our best >> Right. And so most of us do our best imitation of what we think manhood looks imitation of what we think manhood looks imitation of what we think manhood looks like. And then we come to this place like. And then we come to this place like. And then we come to this place where, you know, I believe that, you where, you know, I believe that, you where, you know, I believe that, you know, to be a true blessing is is, you know, to be a true blessing is is, you know, to be a true blessing is is, you know, we're not our job as parents is know, we're not our job as parents is know, we're not our job as parents is not to create this picture where our our not to create this picture where our our not to create this picture where our our children have to draw this perfect children have to draw this perfect children have to draw this perfect representation or duplicate what your representation or duplicate what your representation or duplicate what your version of manhood is. But the best version of manhood is. But the best version of manhood is. But the best thing that we can show them is, hey, thing that we can show them is, hey, thing that we can show them is, hey, this is what I this is this is what I this is what I this is this is what I this is what I this is this is what I this this is my version of manhood and this this is my version of manhood and this this is my version of manhood and this is where I've screwed it up and this is where I've screwed it up and this is where I've screwed it up and this is where I've erased it and this is this is where I've erased it and this is this is where I've erased it and this is a picture of God's grace. My job as a a picture of God's grace. My job as a a picture of God's grace. My job as a dad is not to show my son what it means dad is not to show my son what it means dad is not to show my son what it means to be a perfect man. It is to be to show to be a perfect man. It is to be to show to be a perfect man. It is to be to show him what it means to be an imperfect man him what it means to be an imperfect man him what it means to be an imperfect man in relationship with a God of grace and in relationship with a God of grace and in relationship with a God of grace and to walk in ways that are that are I to walk in ways that are that are I to walk in ways that are that are I think hopefully think hopefully think hopefully nobly and honorably and that reflect the nobly and honorably and that reflect the nobly and honorably and that reflect the goodness of God but also to reflect the goodness of God but also to reflect the goodness of God but also to reflect the humility of someone that knows what it humility of someone that knows what it humility of someone that knows what it means to need a savior and to say look means to need a savior and to say look means to need a savior and to say look we're not perfect and let me show you we're not perfect and let me show you we're not perfect and let me show you like this is where God has stepped in like this is where God has stepped in like this is where God has stepped in and moved in my life. this is where I've and moved in my life. this is where I've and moved in my life. this is where I've blown it and this is where I've done blown it and this is where I've done blown it and this is where I've done okay. But at the end of the day, uh you okay. But at the end of the day, uh you okay. But at the end of the day, uh you know, we all fall on the on the mercy of know, we all fall on the on the mercy of know, we all fall on the on the mercy of God. And I think that is a gift that we God. And I think that is a gift that we God. And I think that is a gift that we can like like I said with my own son, can like like I said with my own son, can like like I said with my own son, that's a gift that we can give our own that's a gift that we can give our own that's a gift that we can give our own children, you know, in the same way my children, you know, in the same way my children, you know, in the same way my dad gave to me towards the end of his dad gave to me towards the end of his dad gave to me towards the end of his life. So the phrase dadbot is obviously

life. So the phrase dadbot is obviously life. So the phrase dadbot is obviously a grave slur. It's a kind of gender a grave slur. It's a kind of gender a grave slur. It's a kind of gender racism, but it is kind of real because racism, but it is kind of real because racism, but it is kind of real because staying in shape grows harder as you get staying in shape grows harder as you get staying in shape grows harder as you get older. You work out, you eat, but you older. You work out, you eat, but you older. You work out, you eat, but you just don't get the same results. And just don't get the same results. And just don't get the same results. And that's where Mars Men comes in. Marsmen that's where Mars Men comes in. Marsmen that's where Mars Men comes in. Marsmen is a natural supplement crafted to is a natural supplement crafted to is a natural supplement crafted to support healthy testosterone levels. support healthy testosterone levels. support healthy testosterone levels. Testosterone, the chemical of life if Testosterone, the chemical of life if Testosterone, the chemical of life if you're a man, is designed to support you're a man, is designed to support you're a man, is designed to support weight management, exercise performance, weight management, exercise performance, weight management, exercise performance, and overall vitality without stimulants, and overall vitality without stimulants, and overall vitality without stimulants, synthetic hormones, or anything creepy synthetic hormones, or anything creepy synthetic hormones, or anything creepy or bad. Just carefully selected natural or bad. Just carefully selected natural or bad. Just carefully selected natural ingredients made in the United States ingredients made in the United States ingredients made in the United States with a focus on quality. Relentless with a focus on quality. Relentless with a focus on quality. Relentless focus on quality. So, if you're looking focus on quality. So, if you're looking focus on quality. So, if you're looking to stay sharper, more energetic, retain to stay sharper, more energetic, retain to stay sharper, more energetic, retain your focus, keep the drive necessary to your focus, keep the drive necessary to your focus, keep the drive necessary to keep you in the game, you should take a keep you in the game, you should take a keep you in the game, you should take a close look at Mars men. They're the real close look at Mars men. They're the real close look at Mars men. They're the real deal. Which is why every order is backed deal. Which is why every order is backed deal. Which is why every order is backed by a 90-day money back guarantee. There by a 90-day money back guarantee. There by a 90-day money back guarantee. There is literally no risk at all. So, if is literally no risk at all. So, if is literally no risk at all. So, if you're ready to try it for a limited you're ready to try it for a limited you're ready to try it for a limited time, our listeners get 50% off for life time, our listeners get 50% off for life time, our listeners get 50% off for life plus free shipping and three free gifts.

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of a father. Yep. of a father. Yep. >> Period. You read the story of Jacob, >> Period. You read the story of Jacob, >> Period. You read the story of Jacob, like Jacob and Esau where Jacob steals like Jacob and Esau where Jacob steals like Jacob and Esau where Jacob steals steals the blessing from his brother steals the blessing from his brother steals the blessing from his brother >> and the whole picture of his life is him >> and the whole picture of his life is him >> and the whole picture of his life is him going on this journey trying to to uh going on this journey trying to to uh going on this journey trying to to uh satisfy a heart that has been denied satisfy a heart that has been denied satisfy a heart that has been denied this blessing of his father that would, this blessing of his father that would, this blessing of his father that would, you know, who showed preference to his you know, who showed preference to his you know, who showed preference to his older brother. And he had stolen the older brother. And he had stolen the older brother. And he had stolen the blessing which, you know, that was meant blessing which, you know, that was meant blessing which, you know, that was meant for his brother and it ended up for his brother and it ended up for his brother and it ended up poisoning his life. and he goes and he poisoning his life. and he goes and he poisoning his life. and he goes and he amasses wealth and he gets wives and he amasses wealth and he gets wives and he amasses wealth and he gets wives and he comes back and there's that famous scene comes back and there's that famous scene comes back and there's that famous scene in the book of Genesis where he he's in the book of Genesis where he he's in the book of Genesis where he he's sitting in the woods and the angel of sitting in the woods and the angel of sitting in the woods and the angel of the Lord comes out and he begins to the Lord comes out and he begins to the Lord comes out and he begins to wrestle the angel of the Lord and they wrestle the angel of the Lord and they wrestle the angel of the Lord and they go and you know Jacob pins him and the go and you know Jacob pins him and the go and you know Jacob pins him and the angel reaches out and dislocates his hip angel reaches out and dislocates his hip angel reaches out and dislocates his hip with just the touch of the thigh and in with just the touch of the thigh and in with just the touch of the thigh and in that moment he realizes that I'm not I'm that moment he realizes that I'm not I'm that moment he realizes that I'm not I'm not wrestling a person here and uh but not wrestling a person here and uh but not wrestling a person here and uh but he's also realized that this is this is he's also realized that this is this is he's also realized that this is this is a picture of unrestrained power. And a picture of unrestrained power. And a picture of unrestrained power. And rather than him giving up, he says, "I'm rather than him giving up, he says, "I'm rather than him giving up, he says, "I'm not going to let you go until you bless not going to let you go until you bless not going to let you go until you bless me. I would rather paraphrase, I would me. I would rather paraphrase, I would me. I would rather paraphrase, I would rather be torn limb from limb than to go rather be torn limb from limb than to go rather be torn limb from limb than to go from this moment without the blessing of from this moment without the blessing of from this moment without the blessing of a father." And he, you know, that's a father." And he, you know, that's a father." And he, you know, that's where he changes his name to Israel. But where he changes his name to Israel. But where he changes his name to Israel. But I think it's a picture of our hearts I think it's a picture of our hearts I think it's a picture of our hearts that like we have we we need that in a that like we have we we need that in a that like we have we we need that in a way that is foundational. Totally agree.

way that is foundational. Totally agree. way that is foundational. Totally agree. You know, and the problem is the rub is You know, and the problem is the rub is You know, and the problem is the rub is and the problem for my children and and the problem for my children and and the problem for my children and yours and all of our children is that, yours and all of our children is that, yours and all of our children is that, you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't you know, I'm an imperfect man. I can't I can't provide that blessing in the I can't provide that blessing in the I can't provide that blessing in the full way. You know, I can't provide the full way. You know, I can't provide the full way. You know, I can't provide the fullness of it. But like I was saying fullness of it. But like I was saying fullness of it. But like I was saying earlier, earlier, earlier, that's part of the part of the way we do that's part of the part of the way we do that's part of the part of the way we do bless them is that we we let that we bless them is that we we let that we bless them is that we we let that we encounter them as adults and as they get encounter them as adults and as they get encounter them as adults and as they get older, we begin to show them the older, we begin to show them the older, we begin to show them the realities of our humanity and we point realities of our humanity and we point realities of our humanity and we point them towards Jesus and we do that them towards Jesus and we do that them towards Jesus and we do that together. And that that becomes a together. And that that becomes a together. And that that becomes a profound gift to our kids as they profound gift to our kids as they profound gift to our kids as they encounter the blessing of God the encounter the blessing of God the encounter the blessing of God the Father. Father. Father. I know that approval is just part of a I know that approval is just part of a I know that approval is just part of a blessing, but it's it's the part that blessing, but it's it's the part that blessing, but it's it's the part that people understand immediately. The people understand immediately. The people understand immediately. The approval of your dad, like good job, approval of your dad, like good job, approval of your dad, like good job, son. son. son. >> Oh, yeah. That's like everything. >> Oh, yeah. That's like everything. >> Oh, yeah. That's like everything. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> It's true. >> Well done, good and faithful servant. >> Well done, good and faithful servant. >> Well done, good and faithful servant. >> Amen. Amen. >> Amen. Amen. >> Amen. Amen. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So, um, speaking of wrestling, there's a >> So, um, speaking of wrestling, there's a >> So, um, speaking of wrestling, there's a phrase that you hear a lot, you never phrase that you hear a lot, you never phrase that you hear a lot, you never used to hear, um, until about maybe six used to hear, um, until about maybe six used to hear, um, until about maybe six or seven years ago, and now it's on the or seven years ago, and now it's on the or seven years ago, and now it's on the lips of every podcaster, and that's the lips of every podcaster, and that's the lips of every podcaster, and that's the spiritual war.

spiritual war. spiritual war. >> You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we >> You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we >> You know, the famous Ephesians quote, we fight against not, you know, flesh and fight against not, you know, flesh and fight against not, you know, flesh and blood, but against principalities. And blood, but against principalities. And blood, but against principalities. And well, you're the preacher, you know, the well, you're the preacher, you know, the well, you're the preacher, you know, the quote. quote. quote. >> Yeah. Uh what is that and what are its >> Yeah. Uh what is that and what are its >> Yeah. Uh what is that and what are its manifestations? The spiritual war. manifestations? The spiritual war. manifestations? The spiritual war. >> Yeah, that's a small question. Um I I >> Yeah, that's a small question. Um I I >> Yeah, that's a small question. Um I I like to start narrow. like to start narrow. like to start narrow. >> Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Uh you know, we >> Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Uh you know, we >> Yeah, thanks. Yeah. Uh you know, we live, live, live, you know, on this side of a curtain. You you know, on this side of a curtain. You you know, on this side of a curtain. You know, we live in this temporal world, know, we live in this temporal world, know, we live in this temporal world, you and me, and the rooms we're in, but you and me, and the rooms we're in, but you and me, and the rooms we're in, but you know, we all think of ourselves as you know, we all think of ourselves as you know, we all think of ourselves as spiritual beings. That's a real common spiritual beings. That's a real common spiritual beings. That's a real common thing that people say. But you know, we thing that people say. But you know, we thing that people say. But you know, we were fashioned by God as spiritual were fashioned by God as spiritual were fashioned by God as spiritual beings to be in relationship with him. beings to be in relationship with him. beings to be in relationship with him. And there really is this this curtain And there really is this this curtain And there really is this this curtain that be behind which there is an entire that be behind which there is an entire that be behind which there is an entire unseen realm that is God and the host of unseen realm that is God and the host of unseen realm that is God and the host of angels and all that. And the angels and all that. And the angels and all that. And the um much like here, it's a it's it's a um much like here, it's a it's it's a um much like here, it's a it's it's a world that is in rebellion as well. And world that is in rebellion as well. And world that is in rebellion as well. And you know the irony is that the world we you know the irony is that the world we you know the irony is that the world we experience now was was never meant to be experience now was was never meant to be experience now was was never meant to be separated from that. When God created separated from that. When God created separated from that. When God created all things, he created heaven and earth all things, he created heaven and earth all things, he created heaven and earth to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam to overlap. He wanted to walk with Adam during the cool of the day. He wanted during the cool of the day. He wanted during the cool of the day. He wanted that man and you know as his his that man and you know as his his that man and you know as his his imagebearers were to be in relationship imagebearers were to be in relationship imagebearers were to be in relationship with God in a in a very tangible way.

with God in a in a very tangible way. with God in a in a very tangible way. But because of the way, you know, But because of the way, you know, But because of the way, you know, because of sin and the brokenness of the because of sin and the brokenness of the because of sin and the brokenness of the world, there's this this separation that world, there's this this separation that world, there's this this separation that occurred. occurred. occurred. But I think now there really is a But I think now there really is a But I think now there really is a spiritual battle as as you quoted. spiritual battle as as you quoted. spiritual battle as as you quoted. >> Wait, but you said you said behind the >> Wait, but you said you said behind the >> Wait, but you said you said behind the veil, behind the curtain, the things we veil, behind the curtain, the things we veil, behind the curtain, the things we can't see, the unseen realm can't see, the unseen realm can't see, the unseen realm >> is God and angels. >> is God and angels. >> is God and angels. >> But it's not a civil war. I mean, there >> But it's not a civil war. I mean, there >> But it's not a civil war. I mean, there there's turmoil there. It's war, right? there's turmoil there. It's war, right? there's turmoil there. It's war, right? >> It is. That's what the way scripture >> It is. That's what the way scripture >> It is. That's what the way scripture describes it. And so, who is the war describes it. And so, who is the war describes it. And so, who is the war between? between? between? >> I think it's between God and uh, you >> I think it's between God and uh, you >> I think it's between God and uh, you know, the father, son, and the holy know, the father, son, and the holy know, the father, son, and the holy spirit, the creator of God. I think it's spirit, the creator of God. I think it's spirit, the creator of God. I think it's he just in the way that God spoke all he just in the way that God spoke all he just in the way that God spoke all things into this world into being. He things into this world into being. He things into this world into being. He also created a a heavenly host. And you also created a a heavenly host. And you also created a a heavenly host. And you read that story in the book of Genesis read that story in the book of Genesis read that story in the book of Genesis with the serpent in the garden, right? with the serpent in the garden, right? with the serpent in the garden, right? You know, Genesis was where heaven and You know, Genesis was where heaven and You know, Genesis was where heaven and earth overlaps and man walked with God earth overlaps and man walked with God earth overlaps and man walked with God as we said just a second ago. But you as we said just a second ago. But you as we said just a second ago. But you see this you see the beginning of a see this you see the beginning of a see this you see the beginning of a divine rebellion there. You see this divine rebellion there. You see this divine rebellion there. You see this this sort of mysterious serpent figure this sort of mysterious serpent figure this sort of mysterious serpent figure which is, you know, we later learn is which is, you know, we later learn is which is, you know, we later learn is this this Satan figure. and he rebelss this this Satan figure. and he rebelss this this Satan figure. and he rebelss against God because he's he's he's against God because he's he's he's against God because he's he's he's prideful. He want to be equal with God.

prideful. He want to be equal with God. prideful. He want to be equal with God. And if he's going to attack God, if he And if he's going to attack God, if he And if he's going to attack God, if he wants to unravel God, what's what's wants to unravel God, what's what's wants to unravel God, what's what's what's the first thing he's going to do? what's the first thing he's going to do? what's the first thing he's going to do? He's going to attack his plan, but he's He's going to attack his plan, but he's He's going to attack his plan, but he's going to attack his image bearsers, going to attack his image bearsers, going to attack his image bearsers, >> right? >> right? >> right? >> And that plan that you Yeah. people and >> And that plan that you Yeah. people and >> And that plan that you Yeah. people and that plan that you see that he hatched that plan that you see that he hatched that plan that you see that he hatched in Genesis 3, it's the still the plan in Genesis 3, it's the still the plan in Genesis 3, it's the still the plan that's happening now. There's a, you that's happening now. There's a, you that's happening now. There's a, you know, we our war is not against flesh know, we our war is not against flesh know, we our war is not against flesh and blood, but it's against these and blood, but it's against these and blood, but it's against these principalities and these powers and principalities and these powers and principalities and these powers and these things that come and they they these things that come and they they these things that come and they they weigh heavy on us. You know, he's a weigh heavy on us. You know, he's a weigh heavy on us. You know, he's a deceiver and and uh Satan Satan and and deceiver and and uh Satan Satan and and deceiver and and uh Satan Satan and and his and his henchmen, his demons and the his and his henchmen, his demons and the his and his henchmen, his demons and the demonic forces. demonic forces. demonic forces. And it's it's very real. Home ownership And it's it's very real. Home ownership And it's it's very real. Home ownership has always been at the center of the has always been at the center of the has always been at the center of the American dream. It is an actual asset, a American dream. It is an actual asset, a American dream. It is an actual asset, a place people work their entire lives to place people work their entire lives to place people work their entire lives to build, a place of stability and security build, a place of stability and security build, a place of stability and security and real value. Right now though, too and real value. Right now though, too and real value. Right now though, too many homeowners are stuck swiping credit many homeowners are stuck swiping credit many homeowners are stuck swiping credit cards to cover groceries. There's cards to cover groceries. There's cards to cover groceries. There's basically a survival tax of 20% interest basically a survival tax of 20% interest basically a survival tax of 20% interest or more. So why keep handing your money or more. So why keep handing your money or more. So why keep handing your money to the banks when you could keep it for to the banks when you could keep it for to the banks when you could keep it for your family? Interest is what kills you.

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imagined any of that was real. imagined any of that was real. >> Thought God was real, but I didn't think >> Thought God was real, but I didn't think >> Thought God was real, but I didn't think there were actually like evil forces there were actually like evil forces there were actually like evil forces floating around, unseen, impelling floating around, unseen, impelling floating around, unseen, impelling people toward self-destruction. I just people toward self-destruction. I just people toward self-destruction. I just didn't believe that. didn't believe that. didn't believe that. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Now it's like the most obvious thing >> Now it's like the most obvious thing >> Now it's like the most obvious thing ever. ever. ever. >> It's obvious to you. I think it's >> It's obvious to you. I think it's >> It's obvious to you. I think it's obvious to like everyone I talk to, but obvious to like everyone I talk to, but obvious to like everyone I talk to, but self- selected group, of course. But self- selected group, of course. But self- selected group, of course. But Sure. I mean, what is what is the old Sure. I mean, what is what is the old Sure. I mean, what is what is the old quote? You the greatest trick the devil quote? You the greatest trick the devil quote? You the greatest trick the devil played is to convince humanity that he played is to convince humanity that he played is to convince humanity that he doesn't exist. doesn't exist. doesn't exist. >> Yes. And I think that's part of >> Yes. And I think that's part of >> Yes. And I think that's part of especially in America, you know, we we especially in America, you know, we we especially in America, you know, we we don't live in a very, you know, we live don't live in a very, you know, we live don't live in a very, you know, we live in such a binary, you know, uh, culture in such a binary, you know, uh, culture in such a binary, you know, uh, culture where, you know, we don't we don't think where, you know, we don't we don't think where, you know, we don't we don't think in terms of that generally speaking. We in terms of that generally speaking. We in terms of that generally speaking. We do more recently. do more recently. do more recently. >> But, uh, >> But, uh, >> But, uh, >> materialist culture. >> materialist culture. >> materialist culture. >> Yeah. Materialist culture. Well said. >> Yeah. Materialist culture. Well said. >> Yeah. Materialist culture. Well said. And, uh, but how does that play out, you And, uh, but how does that play out, you And, uh, but how does that play out, you know? know? know? >> Yeah. What are the manifestations of it? >> Yeah. What are the manifestations of it? >> Yeah. What are the manifestations of it? Like, Like, Like, >> I mean, you can see on a large scale. >> I mean, you can see on a large scale. >> I mean, you can see on a large scale. You see it in the destruction of You see it in the destruction of You see it in the destruction of marriages. You see it in the, you know, marriages. You see it in the, you know, marriages. You see it in the, you know, pornography. You see in you see it in, pornography. You see in you see it in, pornography. You see in you see it in, you know, addictions. You see it in you know, addictions. You see it in you know, addictions. You see it in things like that. You things like that. You things like that. You I find that I see those kind of attacks I find that I see those kind of attacks I find that I see those kind of attacks happen in the areas most egregiously happen in the areas most egregiously happen in the areas most egregiously and those areas that God values most. So and those areas that God values most. So and those areas that God values most. So you want to know what God loves the you want to know what God loves the you want to know what God loves the most, watch what Satan attacks the most most, watch what Satan attacks the most most, watch what Satan attacks the most aggressively. And what does God love the aggressively. And what does God love the aggressively. And what does God love the most? You look at you look at the most? You look at you look at the most? You look at you look at the creation story and all those things that creation story and all those things that creation story and all those things that God set in motion in the beginning, God set in motion in the beginning, God set in motion in the beginning, marriage and ideas of masculinity and marriage and ideas of masculinity and marriage and ideas of masculinity and gender and you know the the role of gender and you know the the role of gender and you know the the role of humanity in the world, us being you know

humanity in the world, us being you know humanity in the world, us being you know God's imagebearers to to to create a God's imagebearers to to to create a God's imagebearers to to to create a kingdom that that reflected his glory. kingdom that that reflected his glory. kingdom that that reflected his glory. Uh wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. Uh wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. Uh wait, I'm going to ask you to pause. So let's just go let's just go kind of So let's just go let's just go kind of So let's just go let's just go kind of through the list forensically here. So through the list forensically here. So through the list forensically here. So you said marriage number one. I mean, you said marriage number one. I mean, you said marriage number one. I mean, not these aren't in a certain order, but not these aren't in a certain order, but not these aren't in a certain order, but I'm just kind of riffing about marriage. I'm just kind of riffing about marriage. I'm just kind of riffing about marriage. >> Yeah, but the ones that come to mind. >> Yeah, but the ones that come to mind. >> Yeah, but the ones that come to mind. >> Yeah. Marriage. And then that's >> Yeah. Marriage. And then that's >> Yeah. Marriage. And then that's explained as part of God's creation in explained as part of God's creation in explained as part of God's creation in Genesis. Genesis. Genesis. >> Yeah. It's part of his creation mandate. >> Yeah. It's part of his creation mandate. >> Yeah. It's part of his creation mandate. You know, be fruitful and multiply. He You know, be fruitful and multiply. He You know, be fruitful and multiply. He created, you know, when you when you created, you know, when you when you created, you know, when you when you read the story of God creating man, he read the story of God creating man, he read the story of God creating man, he he creates Adam out of the earth. And, he creates Adam out of the earth. And, he creates Adam out of the earth. And, you know, it's and he, you know, he he you know, it's and he, you know, he he you know, it's and he, you know, he he empowers him and he brings all the empowers him and he brings all the empowers him and he brings all the animals in front of him. And, you know, animals in front of him. And, you know, animals in front of him. And, you know, after each creation day, you hear God after each creation day, you hear God after each creation day, you hear God say, he says what? He says, "It is good. say, he says what? He says, "It is good. say, he says what? He says, "It is good. It is good. It is good. It is good. It is good. It is good. It is good. >> And the only thing that you read about >> And the only thing that you read about >> And the only thing that you read about in the creation story that God says in the creation story that God says in the creation story that God says wasn't good was man's aloneeness. He wasn't good was man's aloneeness. He wasn't good was man's aloneeness. He says it's not good that man be be alone. says it's not good that man be be alone. says it's not good that man be be alone. >> And so what he So what does he do? You >> And so what he So what does he do? You >> And so what he So what does he do? You know, he he brings all these animals and know, he he brings all these animals and know, he he brings all these animals and there's there was not a helper that was there's there was not a helper that was there's there was not a helper that was suitable for him.

suitable for him. suitable for him. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> So he the dogs came close, I think. I >> So he the dogs came close, I think. I >> So he the dogs came close, I think. I don't know. Maybe a close second, but don't know. Maybe a close second, but don't know. Maybe a close second, but yes. yes. yes. >> Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls >> Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls >> Then he puts him to sleep and he pulls the rib and he makes and he makes woman. the rib and he makes and he makes woman. the rib and he makes and he makes woman. He makes Eve. And there's the, you know, He makes Eve. And there's the, you know, He makes Eve. And there's the, you know, you hear this is the the first song ever you hear this is the the first song ever you hear this is the the first song ever ever written in creation. Anytime you ever written in creation. Anytime you ever written in creation. Anytime you read the Old Testament and you see, you read the Old Testament and you see, you read the Old Testament and you see, you read the text and all of a sudden you read the text and all of a sudden you read the text and all of a sudden you see everything's indented. It's either see everything's indented. It's either see everything's indented. It's either poetry or a song. Yes. And the first poetry or a song. Yes. And the first poetry or a song. Yes. And the first words out of Adam's mouth were bone of words out of Adam's mouth were bone of words out of Adam's mouth were bone of my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he my bone, flesh of my flesh. I mean, he he was smitten. But this was God's, you he was smitten. But this was God's, you he was smitten. But this was God's, you know, marriage was not a human know, marriage was not a human know, marriage was not a human invention. We I say that at every every invention. We I say that at every every invention. We I say that at every every as part of our liturgy is the first as part of our liturgy is the first as part of our liturgy is the first thing I say. And as I'm explaining thing I say. And as I'm explaining thing I say. And as I'm explaining marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies, marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies, marriage at a ceremony in our liturgies, it wasn't a human invention. It was it wasn't a human invention. It was it wasn't a human invention. It was God's idea. And it's something that, you God's idea. And it's something that, you God's idea. And it's something that, you know, honored crosscultured, Christian know, honored crosscultured, Christian know, honored crosscultured, Christian or not, people, you know, it's it's or not, people, you know, it's it's or not, people, you know, it's it's something that's played out. But it's something that's played out. But it's something that's played out. But it's it's it's the it's the seed from which, it's it's the it's the seed from which, it's it's the it's the seed from which, you know, so much goodness flows, you know, so much goodness flows, you know, so much goodness flows, children, and you know, a missional uh children, and you know, a missional uh children, and you know, a missional uh relationship into the world where you relationship into the world where you relationship into the world where you love others and all that kind of stuff.

love others and all that kind of stuff. love others and all that kind of stuff. So, yeah, it was God's idea. He loves So, yeah, it was God's idea. He loves So, yeah, it was God's idea. He loves the idea. He loves it so much that that, the idea. He loves it so much that that, the idea. He loves it so much that that, you know, the marriage image is used you know, the marriage image is used you know, the marriage image is used throughout scripture. Even the the the throughout scripture. Even the the the throughout scripture. Even the the the the second, you know, when when the new the second, you know, when when the new the second, you know, when when the new heavens and the earth come together and heavens and the earth come together and heavens and the earth come together and we we finally, you know, the God rolls we we finally, you know, the God rolls we we finally, you know, the God rolls up the script and, you know, the end is up the script and, you know, the end is up the script and, you know, the end is consummated, he describes it as a consummated, he describes it as a consummated, he describes it as a wedding banquet, you know, and it's it's wedding banquet, you know, and it's it's wedding banquet, you know, and it's it's a beautiful picture. He talks about a beautiful picture. He talks about a beautiful picture. He talks about marriage as this picture of that he marriage as this picture of that he marriage as this picture of that he gives us to be a picture of of Christ's gives us to be a picture of of Christ's gives us to be a picture of of Christ's relationship with the church and the way relationship with the church and the way relationship with the church and the way that husbands are to love their wives that husbands are to love their wives that husbands are to love their wives the way that Jesus loved the church and the way that Jesus loved the church and the way that Jesus loved the church and the wives to respect their husbands. But the wives to respect their husbands. But the wives to respect their husbands. But it's this it's this beautiful image. So it's this it's this beautiful image. So it's this it's this beautiful image. So to say God uh that's something God to say God uh that's something God to say God uh that's something God values would be one of the vast values would be one of the vast values would be one of the vast understatements of the decade. And that understatements of the decade. And that understatements of the decade. And that is why I think Satan attacks it so is why I think Satan attacks it so is why I think Satan attacks it so viciously. viciously. viciously. >> So you see it constantly because you're >> So you see it constantly because you're >> So you see it constantly because you're obviously a a priest. You give sermons, obviously a a priest. You give sermons, obviously a a priest. You give sermons, do the Eucharist, but you also are a do the Eucharist, but you also are a do the Eucharist, but you also are a pastor to your congregants, people in pastor to your congregants, people in pastor to your congregants, people in your church.

your church. your church. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you talk to them uh a lot. >> And you talk to them uh a lot. >> And you talk to them uh a lot. >> So in general terms, how is marriage >> So in general terms, how is marriage >> So in general terms, how is marriage under assault? I think uh I think uh you marriage is marriage is well to you marriage is marriage is well to you marriage is marriage is well to begin with marriage is hard because you begin with marriage is hard because you begin with marriage is hard because you have two fallen people that come have two fallen people that come have two fallen people that come together and and you know make all kinds together and and you know make all kinds together and and you know make all kinds of demands on each other but I think of demands on each other but I think of demands on each other but I think it's under assault and the idea that it's under assault and the idea that it's under assault and the idea that just just the idea of marriage is under just just the idea of marriage is under just just the idea of marriage is under assault. assault. assault. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. >> I mean just the notion to if you look at >> I mean just the notion to if you look at >> I mean just the notion to if you look at Europe or I don't even know what the Europe or I don't even know what the Europe or I don't even know what the percentages are but people aren't even percentages are but people aren't even percentages are but people aren't even getting married over there. getting married over there. getting married over there. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Um the divorce rates are are off the >> Um the divorce rates are are off the >> Um the divorce rates are are off the chain. uh you know and then just the chain. uh you know and then just the chain. uh you know and then just the idea of what marriage is I don't think idea of what marriage is I don't think idea of what marriage is I don't think people see it in large in light of the people see it in large in light of the people see it in large in light of the larger story that we were just larger story that we were just larger story that we were just discussing but that's sort of on a macro discussing but that's sort of on a macro discussing but that's sort of on a macro level but but when you talk to people level but but when you talk to people level but but when you talk to people you talk to people who desperately want you talk to people who desperately want you talk to people who desperately want their marriages to work to be happy to their marriages to work to be happy to their marriages to work to be happy to continue but they're struggling with it continue but they're struggling with it continue but they're struggling with it what are the things that you hear where what are the things that you hear where what are the things that you hear where are the moments where you feel like this are the moments where you feel like this are the moments where you feel like this is a a spiritual attack on husband and is a a spiritual attack on husband and is a a spiritual attack on husband and wife wife wife >> yeah I think uh spiritual attack. It >> yeah I think uh spiritual attack. It >> yeah I think uh spiritual attack. It takes, you know, I always say this is, takes, you know, I always say this is, takes, you know, I always say this is, you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts you know, Satan attacks us in all sorts of ways. Uh, but the most nefarious ways of ways. Uh, but the most nefarious ways of ways. Uh, but the most nefarious ways is when he he he he seeks to deceive us, is when he he he he seeks to deceive us, is when he he he he seeks to deceive us, right? But the most nefarious ways that right? But the most nefarious ways that right? But the most nefarious ways that he whispers in our ear is most of the he whispers in our ear is most of the he whispers in our ear is most of the time he whispers in our own voice, time he whispers in our own voice, time he whispers in our own voice, right? And he whispers to us and we we

right? And he whispers to us and we we right? And he whispers to us and we we it's this self-t talk that we engage in. it's this self-t talk that we engage in. it's this self-t talk that we engage in. And you know, again, I don't understand And you know, again, I don't understand And you know, again, I don't understand the mystery of how this functionally the mystery of how this functionally the mystery of how this functionally works. And works. And works. And But it and it it stokes the the the But it and it it stokes the the the But it and it it stokes the the the embers of selfishness of our pride. You embers of selfishness of our pride. You embers of selfishness of our pride. You know, as you know, to steal a quote from know, as you know, to steal a quote from know, as you know, to steal a quote from Tim Keller so famously said it, Tim Keller so famously said it, Tim Keller so famously said it, >> you know, if you want to know what the >> you know, if you want to know what the >> you know, if you want to know what the your biggest problem in your marriage is your biggest problem in your marriage is your biggest problem in your marriage is is selfishness. And it's always going to is selfishness. And it's always going to is selfishness. And it's always going to be that. And it's this journey of two be that. And it's this journey of two be that. And it's this journey of two self-oriented people. self-oriented people. self-oriented people. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> Learning what it means to die to self. >> Learning what it means to die to self. >> Learning what it means to die to self. And what spiritual attack looks like in And what spiritual attack looks like in And what spiritual attack looks like in that it's it's through selfishness and that it's it's through selfishness and that it's it's through selfishness and it's through our own pride. And that can it's through our own pride. And that can it's through our own pride. And that can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up in a lot of ways. It can bubble up through uh adultery or it can bubble up through uh adultery or it can bubble up through uh adultery or it can bubble up through people having, you bubble up through people having, you bubble up through people having, you know, secret lives or pornography know, secret lives or pornography know, secret lives or pornography addictions or just people losing sight addictions or just people losing sight addictions or just people losing sight of each other, you know, and it's so of each other, you know, and it's so of each other, you know, and it's so easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, easy. I mean, you know, you have kids, you've lived a life, you know, how how you've lived a life, you know, how how you've lived a life, you know, how how difficult it is in marriage to stay difficult it is in marriage to stay difficult it is in marriage to stay connected and how uh people can uh you connected and how uh people can uh you connected and how uh people can uh you can stop talking or people and that's can stop talking or people and that's can stop talking or people and that's part of just part of the discipline and part of just part of the discipline and part of just part of the discipline and part of part of part of >> I don't know how people do it. I mean, >> I don't know how people do it. I mean, >> I don't know how people do it. I mean, people with kids at home once once kids people with kids at home once once kids people with kids at home once once kids leaves, you're like, I don't know how we leaves, you're like, I don't know how we leaves, you're like, I don't know how we manage to stay married. You no matter manage to stay married. You no matter manage to stay married. You no matter how much you love the person, you don't how much you love the person, you don't how much you love the person, you don't have time to talk.

have time to talk. have time to talk. >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's a it's >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's a it's >> Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's it's a it's it's a challenge, man. It is a it's a challenge, man. It is a it's a challenge, man. It is a discipline. One of the more common discipline. One of the more common discipline. One of the more common things when people come in, I do a lot things when people come in, I do a lot things when people come in, I do a lot of marriage counseling. People will come of marriage counseling. People will come of marriage counseling. People will come in and they'll and you know, inevitably in and they'll and you know, inevitably in and they'll and you know, inevitably one of the things they'll say is, you one of the things they'll say is, you one of the things they'll say is, you know, we just have a hard marriage. And know, we just have a hard marriage. And know, we just have a hard marriage. And I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say, I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say, I'll sit and I'll listen and I'll say, dude, you just got a marriage. Like dude, you just got a marriage. Like dude, you just got a marriage. Like marriage is hard. Again, it's it's two marriage is hard. Again, it's it's two marriage is hard. Again, it's it's two fallen people learning me to come fallen people learning me to come fallen people learning me to come together and find out, you know, what together and find out, you know, what together and find out, you know, what does it mean to love you and to pursue does it mean to love you and to pursue does it mean to love you and to pursue you and to lay down my life for you and you and to lay down my life for you and you and to lay down my life for you and love love you more than I love myself? love love you more than I love myself? love love you more than I love myself? As it said in Ephesians 5, you know, As it said in Ephesians 5, you know, As it said in Ephesians 5, you know, what does it mean? You know, husbands, what does it mean? You know, husbands, what does it mean? You know, husbands, love your wives like Christ loved the love your wives like Christ loved the love your wives like Christ loved the church. Well, how did Christ love the church. Well, how did Christ love the church. Well, how did Christ love the church? It wasn't de make, you know, church? It wasn't de make, you know, church? It wasn't de make, you know, clinging to his, you know, his authority clinging to his, you know, his authority clinging to his, you know, his authority and, you know, hammering hammering his and, you know, hammering hammering his and, you know, hammering hammering his points home though, you know, there were points home though, you know, there were points home though, you know, there were moments, right? But it was really laying moments, right? But it was really laying moments, right? But it was really laying his life down. And it's a great picture his life down. And it's a great picture his life down. And it's a great picture that we think of like what is love and that we think of like what is love and that we think of like what is love and marriage? Uh well it's a lot of things marriage? Uh well it's a lot of things marriage? Uh well it's a lot of things but one thing it's not it's not fair but one thing it's not it's not fair but one thing it's not it's not fair right if you want fairness go get a right if you want fairness go get a right if you want fairness go get a business partner but if you want to love business partner but if you want to love business partner but if you want to love someone in marriage the question is hey someone in marriage the question is hey someone in marriage the question is hey how do I when I feel wrong or I feel how do I when I feel wrong or I feel how do I when I feel wrong or I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel hurt or I feel in a place where I feel unseen like what the world would tell me unseen like what the world would tell me unseen like what the world would tell me is I have every right to not love you is I have every right to not love you is I have every right to not love you anymore until I get what's mine but what anymore until I get what's mine but what anymore until I get what's mine but what the Christian call to marriage the Christian call to marriage the Christian call to marriage especially for husbands is no. Yeah, you

especially for husbands is no. Yeah, you especially for husbands is no. Yeah, you know, you play hurt and you continue to know, you play hurt and you continue to know, you play hurt and you continue to love and you still move forward and you love and you still move forward and you love and you still move forward and you and you still, you know, wash feet and and you still, you know, wash feet and and you still, you know, wash feet and you still love your wife and you still love your wife and you still love your wife and and that's that's the call and it's it's and that's that's the call and it's it's and that's that's the call and it's it's a call to it's a you again to lay your a call to it's a you again to lay your a call to it's a you again to lay your life down. And it's ironic talking about life down. And it's ironic talking about life down. And it's ironic talking about uh marriage and speaking about it in any uh marriage and speaking about it in any uh marriage and speaking about it in any authoritative way because it's topics authoritative way because it's topics authoritative way because it's topics like marriage or topics like prayer. like marriage or topics like prayer. like marriage or topics like prayer. They're topics that you riff on but you They're topics that you riff on but you They're topics that you riff on but you never really feel like you have a handle never really feel like you have a handle never really feel like you have a handle on it. on it. on it. >> Right. Right. like sure let me tell you >> Right. Right. like sure let me tell you >> Right. Right. like sure let me tell you about my wisdom on marriage but it's about my wisdom on marriage but it's about my wisdom on marriage but it's it's because I'm like I you know you're it's because I'm like I you know you're it's because I'm like I you know you're always daily because and that's how you always daily because and that's how you always daily because and that's how you I think you keep a a humble posture but I think you keep a a humble posture but I think you keep a a humble posture but uh I've never had any problem with uh I've never had any problem with uh I've never had any problem with humility having three daughters but um humility having three daughters but um humility having three daughters but um it just kind of is baked in you know it just kind of is baked in you know it just kind of is baked in you know >> it's true but you know but you never >> it's true but you know but you never >> it's true but you know but you never feel like you have you can wrap your feel like you have you can wrap your feel like you have you can wrap your arms around it fully um because it is a arms around it fully um because it is a arms around it fully um because it is a mystery and uh and it constantly mystery and uh and it constantly mystery and uh and it constantly requires a humility which you know requires a humility which you know requires a humility which you know you've known me a lot a lot of years and you've known me a lot a lot of years and you've known me a lot a lot of years and that's not something I come by naturally that's not something I come by naturally that's not something I come by naturally and most people don't but but it's also and most people don't but but it's also and most people don't but but it's also God's I would say uh the profound gift God's I would say uh the profound gift God's I would say uh the profound gift of marriage is it is the crucible with of marriage is it is the crucible with of marriage is it is the crucible with which you uh God uh transforms your which you uh God uh transforms your which you uh God uh transforms your lives if you let it you know and lives if you let it you know and lives if you let it you know and ironically it is those those moments of ironically it is those those moments of ironically it is those those moments of of brokenness and restoration where of brokenness and restoration where of brokenness and restoration where those transformations come from uh h those transformations come from uh h those transformations come from uh h tend to happen the most profound.

tend to happen the most profound. tend to happen the most profound. >> Of course, it's the crappy things you're >> Of course, it's the crappy things you're >> Of course, it's the crappy things you're grateful for. And it's those places, grateful for. And it's those places, grateful for. And it's those places, too, that you know, I've seen marriages d I've seen marriages shattered by d I've seen marriages shattered by adultery adultery adultery that have because of the willingness and that have because of the willingness and that have because of the willingness and humility of the two people to invite God humility of the two people to invite God humility of the two people to invite God in the middle of it and to listen and to in the middle of it and to listen and to in the middle of it and to listen and to walk. I have seen those people emerge walk. I have seen those people emerge walk. I have seen those people emerge with marriages that they'd only dreamed with marriages that they'd only dreamed with marriages that they'd only dreamed they could have. actually. they could have. actually. they could have. actually. >> Oh, 100%. 100%. >> Oh, 100%. 100%. >> Oh, 100%. 100%. >> Like full-blown cheating. >> Like full-blown cheating. >> Like full-blown cheating. >> Yeah. No question. >> Yeah. No question. >> Yeah. No question. And they would both sincerely say under And they would both sincerely say under And they would both sincerely say under polygraph, "I'm happier in my marriage polygraph, "I'm happier in my marriage polygraph, "I'm happier in my marriage than I've ever been." than I've ever been." than I've ever been." >> No question. >> No question. >> No question. >> Really? >> Really? >> Really? >> Yeah. God works all things together for >> Yeah. God works all things together for >> Yeah. God works all things together for the good of those who love him. And if the good of those who love him. And if the good of those who love him. And if you let him, if you're willing to do it, you let him, if you're willing to do it, you let him, if you're willing to do it, I'm I'm don't don't don't let me I'm I'm don't don't don't let me I'm I'm don't don't don't let me sugarcoat it. It's it's a brutal and I sugarcoat it. It's it's a brutal and I sugarcoat it. It's it's a brutal and I would never suggest that as a journey. would never suggest that as a journey. would never suggest that as a journey. No. No one wants to go there. No one No. No one wants to go there. No one No. No one wants to go there. No one wants to go there. But for those that wants to go there. But for those that wants to go there. But for those that that I've seen marriages heal in ways that I've seen marriages heal in ways that I've seen marriages heal in ways that you couldn't imagine for such that you couldn't imagine for such that you couldn't imagine for such egregious pains and so many grie and egregious pains and so many grie and egregious pains and so many grie and I've seen marriages disintegrate for far I've seen marriages disintegrate for far I've seen marriages disintegrate for far less because people aren't willing to less because people aren't willing to less because people aren't willing to walk in and uh with humility and and walk in and uh with humility and and walk in and uh with humility and and look at themselves and they're just too look at themselves and they're just too look at themselves and they're just too busy pointing at the other person.

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curiva bay.com/tucker. curiva bay.com/tucker. The 15% Tucker offers automatically The 15% Tucker offers automatically The 15% Tucker offers automatically applied when you check out. Again, applied when you check out. Again, applied when you check out. Again, curativay.com/tucker. Serious cleaning that doesn't make your Serious cleaning that doesn't make your house feel like a chemical plant. Boy, house feel like a chemical plant. Boy, house feel like a chemical plant. Boy, that is just the story of that is just the story of that is just the story of all of our relationships with other all of our relationships with other all of our relationships with other people. It's like it's always someone people. It's like it's always someone people. It's like it's always someone else's fault. That's like the default else's fault. That's like the default else's fault. That's like the default setting in most and certainly in me. setting in most and certainly in me. setting in most and certainly in me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Like I'm just, you know, all that, you >> Like I'm just, you know, all that, you >> Like I'm just, you know, all that, you know, I can't believe they did that. know, I can't believe they did that. know, I can't believe they did that. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. It's just the idolatry of our hearts. And the part of that idolatry is my own And the part of that idolatry is my own And the part of that idolatry is my own self-image. And the thing about idols is self-image. And the thing about idols is self-image. And the thing about idols is this. You can never see your idols until this. You can never see your idols until this. You can never see your idols until they're smashed. And there's no better they're smashed. And there's no better they're smashed. And there's no better place to smash the the idolatry of self place to smash the the idolatry of self place to smash the the idolatry of self than in a marriage. Cuz you know where than in a marriage. Cuz you know where than in a marriage. Cuz you know where you're like, well, I think and you know, you're like, well, I think and you know, you're like, well, I think and you know, no. I mean, your your your wife knows no. I mean, your your your wife knows no. I mean, your your your wife knows your your wife is the most dangerous your your wife is the most dangerous your your wife is the most dangerous person in your world. person in your world. person in your world. >> That's for sure. >> That's for sure. >> That's for sure. >> Because she knows you and you're the >> Because she knows you and you're the >> Because she knows you and you're the most dangerous person in her world most dangerous person in her world most dangerous person in her world because you know her. You know, you know because you know her. You know, you know because you know her. You know, you know her her wounded places, you know where her her wounded places, you know where her her wounded places, you know where she's strong, you know where she's weak, she's strong, you know where she's weak, she's strong, you know where she's weak, you know her insecurities, you know her you know her insecurities, you know her you know her insecurities, you know her sense of humor, you know all the things.

sense of humor, you know all the things. sense of humor, you know all the things. So, you can either, you know, a few So, you can either, you know, a few So, you can either, you know, a few words from you. I mean, if you came to words from you. I mean, if you came to words from you. I mean, if you came to me and said, you know, insulted me in me and said, you know, insulted me in me and said, you know, insulted me in some way, you know, it might hurt my some way, you know, it might hurt my some way, you know, it might hurt my feelings and, you know, we're we're feelings and, you know, we're we're feelings and, you know, we're we're really close friends, so it might you really close friends, so it might you really close friends, so it might you know, it it would kind of run know, it it would kind of run know, it it would kind of run >> I think it would wound you pretty bad. >> I think it would wound you pretty bad. >> I think it would wound you pretty bad. >> Yeah. But but if my wife said the same >> Yeah. But but if my wife said the same >> Yeah. But but if my wife said the same thing, thing, thing, >> dude, I'm with you. >> dude, I'm with you. >> dude, I'm with you. >> I would be I wouldn't you know, it would >> I would be I wouldn't you know, it would >> I would be I wouldn't you know, it would it would You can't get out of bed, it would You can't get out of bed, it would You can't get out of bed, right? You're, you know, you were coming right? You're, you know, you were coming right? You're, you know, you were coming in, you know. So, in, you know. So, in, you know. So, >> um, but it just shows the power you have >> um, but it just shows the power you have >> um, but it just shows the power you have over. over. over. >> She's got a loaded gun. There's no >> She's got a loaded gun. There's no >> She's got a loaded gun. There's no doubt. doubt. doubt. >> But you also have such a tremendous >> But you also have such a tremendous >> But you also have such a tremendous power to bless one another and to raise power to bless one another and to raise power to bless one another and to raise one another. The way I always say like one another. The way I always say like one another. The way I always say like you you see you you see you you see the glory self in the other like what the glory self in the other like what the glory self in the other like what does it mean to see who God is trying to does it mean to see who God is trying to does it mean to see who God is trying to call forward and to draw them forth? And call forward and to draw them forth? And call forward and to draw them forth? And that's hard, man. That's especially hard that's hard, man. That's especially hard that's hard, man. That's especially hard in conflict where you're sitting there in conflict where you're sitting there in conflict where you're sitting there and you're you're at odds and you you and you're you're at odds and you you and you're you're at odds and you you know you're angry or something like know you're angry or something like know you're angry or something like that. And of course when you're angry that. And of course when you're angry that. And of course when you're angry you feel justified or otherwise you you feel justified or otherwise you you feel justified or otherwise you wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the wouldn't feel angry, right? That's the that's kind of the the the foundation of that's kind of the the the foundation of that's kind of the the the foundation of anger is our self-justification.

anger is our self-justification. anger is our self-justification. But the discipline and the spiritual But the discipline and the spiritual But the discipline and the spiritual maturity in that is how do I still reach maturity in that is how do I still reach maturity in that is how do I still reach in there and and see that glory self in there and and see that glory self in there and and see that glory self with that person and and and draw them with that person and and and draw them with that person and and and draw them forward and to see them as a child of forward and to see them as a child of forward and to see them as a child of God as someone that I actually love as God as someone that I actually love as God as someone that I actually love as someone as precious and it's very hard someone as precious and it's very hard someone as precious and it's very hard to remember. I have a picture of my wife to remember. I have a picture of my wife to remember. I have a picture of my wife I have a picture of my wife of her. I have a picture of my wife of her. I have a picture of my wife of her. She's probably three years old. It's a She's probably three years old. It's a She's probably three years old. It's a cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in cute kid, beautiful. And it's stuck in my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the my Bible in Psalm 139, which is the psalm about, you know, you're fearfully psalm about, you know, you're fearfully psalm about, you know, you're fearfully and wonderfully made when I wo knit you and wonderfully made when I wo knit you and wonderfully made when I wo knit you together in your in your mother's womb. together in your in your mother's womb. together in your in your mother's womb. And it just talks about the glory of And it just talks about the glory of And it just talks about the glory of creation. And and I do that on purpose creation. And and I do that on purpose creation. And and I do that on purpose because that's what I I need to remember because that's what I I need to remember because that's what I I need to remember in our marriage. It's the thing that in our marriage. It's the thing that in our marriage. It's the thing that that at any moment cuz I love her deeply that at any moment cuz I love her deeply that at any moment cuz I love her deeply and uh I want to love her and I want to and uh I want to love her and I want to and uh I want to love her and I want to and and it's really important that in and and it's really important that in and and it's really important that in order to do that well, you need to order to do that well, you need to order to do that well, you need to consistently see the value and the glory consistently see the value and the glory consistently see the value and the glory of this person that you're inextricably of this person that you're inextricably of this person that you're inextricably tied to at this point.

tied to at this point. tied to at this point. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Amen. >> Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography >> Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography >> Yeah, I agree. You mentioned pornography as a threat to marriage. It's like one as a threat to marriage. It's like one as a threat to marriage. It's like one of those things I think we're just like of those things I think we're just like of those things I think we're just like maybe 10 years too old to really under maybe 10 years too old to really under maybe 10 years too old to really under or speaking for myself to really or speaking for myself to really or speaking for myself to really understand the magnitude of it. understand the magnitude of it. understand the magnitude of it. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> How often does pornography >> How often does pornography >> How often does pornography arise in marriage counseling as a huge arise in marriage counseling as a huge arise in marriage counseling as a huge problem? problem? problem? Oh man, I I I think it's hard to I I I think it's hard to overstate how overstate how overstate how pervasive it is now. If I meet with a pervasive it is now. If I meet with a pervasive it is now. If I meet with a man, like take marriage counseling out man, like take marriage counseling out man, like take marriage counseling out of it, just just men in general. of it, just just men in general. of it, just just men in general. I I assume that's in the mix until I I assume that's in the mix until I I assume that's in the mix until proven otherwise. Actually, proven otherwise. Actually, proven otherwise. Actually, >> yeah. And that's not an indictment, but >> yeah. And that's not an indictment, but >> yeah. And that's not an indictment, but I just it's so pervasive. I'm safer to I just it's so pervasive. I'm safer to I just it's so pervasive. I'm safer to assume that's the case that that's assume that's the case that that's assume that's the case that that's somehow part of the narrative than uh somehow part of the narrative than uh somehow part of the narrative than uh than than it's not because it's it's than than it's not because it's it's than than it's not because it's it's it's you know we walk around with these it's you know we walk around with these it's you know we walk around with these little you know apple porn boxes that little you know apple porn boxes that little you know apple porn boxes that people have in their hands you know and people have in their hands you know and people have in their hands you know and they they they >> and you know could you imagine being a >> and you know could you imagine being a >> and you know could you imagine being a teenager now a teenage boy growing up teenager now a teenage boy growing up teenager now a teenage boy growing up where you know the the the greatest where you know the the the greatest where you know the the the greatest you know temptation in your life is you know temptation in your life is you know temptation in your life is literally three button clicks away at literally three button clicks away at literally three button clicks away at any moment.

any moment. any moment. and what that's doing to the hearts and and what that's doing to the hearts and and what that's doing to the hearts and minds of young men and what it's doing minds of young men and what it's doing minds of young men and what it's doing to their concept of marriage and what to their concept of marriage and what to their concept of marriage and what that's doing to their concept of that's doing to their concept of that's doing to their concept of sexuality. You know, we're Gen X. You sexuality. You know, we're Gen X. You sexuality. You know, we're Gen X. You know, we're something like you and I know, we're something like you and I know, we're something like you and I came along and you want to do something came along and you want to do something came along and you want to do something like you had to work for it. You know, like you had to work for it. You know, like you had to work for it. You know, that's not like that. It is literally that's not like that. It is literally that's not like that. It is literally force-fed to these young men. force-fed to these young men. force-fed to these young men. >> But you're only telling one half of the >> But you're only telling one half of the >> But you're only telling one half of the story. The other half is Tim Cook's a story. The other half is Tim Cook's a story. The other half is Tim Cook's a billionaire. So, there has been a big billionaire. So, there has been a big billionaire. So, there has been a big upside to this. upside to this. upside to this. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're Tim Cook. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're Tim Cook. Yeah. >> Yeah. Yeah. If you're Tim Cook. Yeah. No, it's crazy we haven't had a No, it's crazy we haven't had a No, it's crazy we haven't had a revolution. Um, revolution. Um, revolution. Um, >> I pray it's coming, but I don't think >> I pray it's coming, but I don't think >> I pray it's coming, but I don't think that will ever happen apart from that will ever happen apart from that will ever happen apart from revival. revival. revival. >> I think that's right because it's got to >> I think that's right because it's got to >> I think that's right because it's got to and it's it's it's a uh it's and it's it's it's a uh it's and it's it's it's a uh it's again, not to belabor the point, but I again, not to belabor the point, but I again, not to belabor the point, but I think what that does, I think we going think what that does, I think we going think what that does, I think we going back to what is spiritual warfare, you back to what is spiritual warfare, you back to what is spiritual warfare, you know, what is how does it play out on know, what is how does it play out on know, what is how does it play out on practical levels? I think that's a practical levels? I think that's a practical levels? I think that's a profound evil. is trying to profound evil. is trying to profound evil. is trying to >> a you you know anything you know the >> a you you know anything you know the >> a you you know anything you know the earlier you can damage someone sexually earlier you can damage someone sexually earlier you can damage someone sexually just think about what that does so it's just think about what that does so it's just think about what that does so it's so real totally just the way that plays so real totally just the way that plays so real totally just the way that plays out out out >> you get stuck in patterns that are men >> you get stuck in patterns that are men >> you get stuck in patterns that are men do anyway I don't know about women do anyway I don't know about women do anyway I don't know about women >> in human sexuality it's malleable >> in human sexuality it's malleable >> in human sexuality it's malleable >> right it's a yeah >> right it's a yeah >> right it's a yeah >> it's not assigned at birth >> it's not assigned at birth >> it's not assigned at birth >> yeah well it is and it isn't in the >> yeah well it is and it isn't in the >> yeah well it is and it isn't in the sense that it is that that what I mean sense that it is that that what I mean sense that it is that that what I mean is our our sex you know our sexuality as is our our sex you know our sexuality as is our our sex you know our sexuality as we live it out you know our sex is we live it out you know our sex is we live it out you know our sex is assigned at our gender is assigned and assigned at our gender is assigned and assigned at our gender is assigned and it's obviously a god breathed you know it's obviously a god breathed you know it's obviously a god breathed you know holy call and you know when we talk holy call and you know when we talk holy call and you know when we talk about things like pornography and the

about things like pornography and the about things like pornography and the abuses of pornography and things like abuses of pornography and things like abuses of pornography and things like that it's really easy to get start get that it's really easy to get start get that it's really easy to get start get get your wheels caught into this sort of get your wheels caught into this sort of get your wheels caught into this sort of dark melancholy aspect of it but you dark melancholy aspect of it but you dark melancholy aspect of it but you know you got to flip it over and first know you got to flip it over and first know you got to flip it over and first see like you know the glory of what God see like you know the glory of what God see like you know the glory of what God designed when he designed human designed when he designed human designed when he designed human sexuality when he when he called people sexuality when he when he called people sexuality when he when he called people and created man and women to be sexual and created man and women to be sexual and created man and women to be sexual beings together right it's a it's a beings together right it's a it's a beings together right it's a it's a glorious it's a beautiful thing it's a glorious it's a beautiful thing it's a glorious it's a beautiful thing it's a It's this. In fact, you know, people It's this. In fact, you know, people It's this. In fact, you know, people often criticize Christians as saying, often criticize Christians as saying, often criticize Christians as saying, you have such a low view of sexuality. you have such a low view of sexuality. you have such a low view of sexuality. I'm like, you you've got to be kidding I'm like, you you've got to be kidding I'm like, you you've got to be kidding me. We have a we have a such a higher me. We have a we have a such a higher me. We have a we have a such a higher view of sexuality than the world. Like, view of sexuality than the world. Like, view of sexuality than the world. Like, this isn't this is it's it's a fire that this isn't this is it's it's a fire that this isn't this is it's it's a fire that it just needs to be kept into the it just needs to be kept into the it just needs to be kept into the fireplace, fireplace, fireplace, >> right? It's not a consumer product, >> right? It's not a consumer product, >> right? It's not a consumer product, however. however. however. >> No, it's not a consumer product. It's >> No, it's not a consumer product. It's >> No, it's not a consumer product. It's not a it's not an adult playground that not a it's not an adult playground that not a it's not an adult playground that we just go and make Tim Cook rich. But we just go and make Tim Cook rich. But we just go and make Tim Cook rich. But it has profound spiritual impacts for us it has profound spiritual impacts for us it has profound spiritual impacts for us if we cut against the grain of how God if we cut against the grain of how God if we cut against the grain of how God designed us for that. So when we talk designed us for that. So when we talk designed us for that. So when we talk about what you said, you know that what about what you said, you know that what about what you said, you know that what we you were asking about like how does we you were asking about like how does we you were asking about like how does that spiritual warfare play out in those that spiritual warfare play out in those that spiritual warfare play out in those those these cont or in our world in our those these cont or in our world in our those these cont or in our world in our life and practical boots on the ground life and practical boots on the ground life and practical boots on the ground level like that's a that's a perfect level like that's a that's a perfect level like that's a that's a perfect example. the it's it's the it's the example. the it's it's the it's the example. the it's it's the it's the assault on what God values that you know assault on what God values that you know assault on what God values that you know the marriage and the and human sexuality the marriage and the and human sexuality the marriage and the and human sexuality because it it knows that a if you can because it it knows that a if you can because it it knows that a if you can twist that it will it will turn us fully twist that it will it will turn us fully twist that it will it will turn us fully inward. It turns us we become fullblown inward. It turns us we become fullblown inward. It turns us we become fullblown consumers. We become a slave to consumers. We become a slave to consumers. We become a slave to appetites and we become appetites and we become appetites and we become and I think the again going back to the

and I think the again going back to the and I think the again going back to the the beautiful thing that you see is that the beautiful thing that you see is that the beautiful thing that you see is that when the Lord heals in that place, you when the Lord heals in that place, you when the Lord heals in that place, you see so much you see just the power of see so much you see just the power of see so much you see just the power of redemption and that and watching men and redemption and that and watching men and redemption and that and watching men and women uh be restored and feel like women uh be restored and feel like women uh be restored and feel like they're washed clean, that they're not they're washed clean, that they're not they're washed clean, that they're not shameful or object objects of shame and shameful or object objects of shame and shameful or object objects of shame and uh it's a beautiful thing that that God uh it's a beautiful thing that that God uh it's a beautiful thing that that God has blessed me to be a part of as I walk has blessed me to be a part of as I walk has blessed me to be a part of as I walk through. through. through. >> So what is it? Um so pornography was >> So what is it? Um so pornography was >> So what is it? Um so pornography was sold internet pornography and I kind of sold internet pornography and I kind of sold internet pornography and I kind of remember this remember this remember this I was married by the time the internet I was married by the time the internet I was married by the time the internet arrived but I remember arrived but I remember arrived but I remember >> we're old. >> we're old. >> we're old. >> Well you're old but I I feel fairly >> Well you're old but I I feel fairly >> Well you're old but I I feel fairly young. young. young. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Spry thanks to my consumption of alp >> Spry thanks to my consumption of alp >> Spry thanks to my consumption of alp nicotine products nicotine products nicotine products >> product. Um, >> product. Um, >> product. Um, no, we are old and but there is some no, we are old and but there is some no, we are old and but there is some advantage in that and that you sort of advantage in that and that you sort of advantage in that and that you sort of remember how things were sold when they remember how things were sold when they remember how things were sold when they first arrived on market. And I remember first arrived on market. And I remember first arrived on market. And I remember people saying, well, this is going to be people saying, well, this is going to be people saying, well, this is going to be the end of rape and sexual assault the end of rape and sexual assault the end of rape and sexual assault because there's a healthy outlet for because there's a healthy outlet for because there's a healthy outlet for sexuality in the in the form of sexuality in the in the form of sexuality in the in the form of pornography. People said that. I mean, I pornography. People said that. I mean, I pornography. People said that. I mean, I remember when they said that.

remember when they said that. remember when they said that. >> That's the dumbest thing I've ever >> That's the dumbest thing I've ever >> That's the dumbest thing I've ever heard. I I I don't remember that, but I heard. I I I don't remember that, but I heard. I I I don't remember that, but I just But that is just But that is just But that is >> Well, the internet would make us free >> Well, the internet would make us free >> Well, the internet would make us free and inform us when actually people like and inform us when actually people like and inform us when actually people like don't even read anymore and like we're don't even read anymore and like we're don't even read anymore and like we're surveiled constantly. So, let's we're surveiled constantly. So, let's we're surveiled constantly. So, let's we're going to put this fire out by by pouring going to put this fire out by by pouring going to put this fire out by by pouring gasoline on. gasoline on. gasoline on. >> No, I totally agree. For the last 50 >> No, I totally agree. For the last 50 >> No, I totally agree. For the last 50 years or so, oil has been priced pretty years or so, oil has been priced pretty years or so, oil has been priced pretty much exclusively in US dollars. It's much exclusively in US dollars. It's much exclusively in US dollars. It's called the petro dollar. And the point called the petro dollar. And the point called the petro dollar. And the point was to give the dollar, our currency, was to give the dollar, our currency, was to give the dollar, our currency, built-in demand around the world. And built-in demand around the world. And built-in demand around the world. And it's worked pretty well, but it's it's worked pretty well, but it's it's worked pretty well, but it's changing fast. Saudi Arabia and other changing fast. Saudi Arabia and other changing fast. Saudi Arabia and other Gulf nations are increasingly selling Gulf nations are increasingly selling Gulf nations are increasingly selling oil trades in Chinese Juan or other oil trades in Chinese Juan or other oil trades in Chinese Juan or other currencies. So, the dollar's share of currencies. So, the dollar's share of currencies. So, the dollar's share of global reserves has dropped to its global reserves has dropped to its global reserves has dropped to its lowest level in a quarter century. lowest level in a quarter century. lowest level in a quarter century. Central banks around the world now have Central banks around the world now have Central banks around the world now have more gold than they've had in decades. more gold than they've had in decades. more gold than they've had in decades. China is buying so much gold, it's China is buying so much gold, it's China is buying so much gold, it's affecting the global price. Don't wait affecting the global price. Don't wait affecting the global price. Don't wait until the dollar continues to lose until the dollar continues to lose until the dollar continues to lose value. You can protect your wealth today value. You can protect your wealth today value. You can protect your wealth today by opening a precious metals IRA or by by opening a precious metals IRA or by by opening a precious metals IRA or by buying gold, having it shipped to your buying gold, having it shipped to your buying gold, having it shipped to your home or stored for you. That's why we home or stored for you. That's why we home or stored for you. That's why we started Battalion Metals to give started Battalion Metals to give started Battalion Metals to give Americans an honest, fairpriced way to Americans an honest, fairpriced way to Americans an honest, fairpriced way to buy precious metals. It's not a scam.

buy precious metals. It's not a scam. buy precious metals. It's not a scam. You know exactly what we're making. It's You know exactly what we're making. It's You know exactly what we're making. It's like three points over spot. Battalion like three points over spot. Battalion like three points over spot. Battalion metals.com/tucker metals.com/tucker metals.com/tucker is the address. Battalion.com/tucker is the address. Battalion.com/tucker is the address. Battalion.com/tucker to learn more. But I just didn't really think about it But I just didn't really think about it at the time um at the time um at the time um and at all. but uh or really about and at all. but uh or really about and at all. but uh or really about anything worth thinking about at that anything worth thinking about at that anything worth thinking about at that time in my life. But anyway, time in my life. But anyway, time in my life. But anyway, fast forward 35 years, like what damage fast forward 35 years, like what damage fast forward 35 years, like what damage does it do? So, you're a married man does it do? So, you're a married man does it do? So, you're a married man who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? who's got a porn habit. Why is that bad? Like, in practical terms, how does that Like, in practical terms, how does that Like, in practical terms, how does that divide you from your wife and family? divide you from your wife and family? divide you from your wife and family? >> We we could spend the next three hours >> We we could spend the next three hours >> We we could spend the next three hours talking about this, but talking about this, but talking about this, but yeah. No, in simple terms. one, it it yeah. No, in simple terms. one, it it yeah. No, in simple terms. one, it it twists your view of of twists your view of of twists your view of of sexuality and it twists your view of sexuality and it twists your view of sexuality and it twists your view of your spouse. And what I mean by that is, your spouse. And what I mean by that is, your spouse. And what I mean by that is, you know, people say, "Oh, it's the you know, people say, "Oh, it's the you know, people say, "Oh, it's the objectification woman." People say that objectification woman." People say that objectification woman." People say that all, but it truly does do that. And you all, but it truly does do that. And you all, but it truly does do that. And you know, women, you might not know this, know, women, you might not know this, know, women, you might not know this, women's sexuality is very different than women's sexuality is very different than women's sexuality is very different than a man's.

a man's. a man's. >> What? Yeah, that's right. And uh, you >> What? Yeah, that's right. And uh, you >> What? Yeah, that's right. And uh, you know, know, know, >> they don't just get drunk and horny and >> they don't just get drunk and horny and >> they don't just get drunk and horny and like hook up with random people. like hook up with random people. like hook up with random people. >> They're not big dumb animals, right? >> They're not big dumb animals, right? >> They're not big dumb animals, right? They're they're and uh it doesn't mean They're they're and uh it doesn't mean They're they're and uh it doesn't mean it's less important for them. it's less important for them. it's less important for them. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> I agree. >> And God fashioned it for and that's >> And God fashioned it for and that's >> And God fashioned it for and that's another cliche that people say, you another cliche that people say, you another cliche that people say, you know, oh, sex just means more for a man know, oh, sex just means more for a man know, oh, sex just means more for a man than it does for a woman. Actually, than it does for a woman. Actually, than it does for a woman. Actually, that's not true. It's not more important that's not true. It's not more important that's not true. It's not more important for a man than it is for a woman. Men for a man than it is for a woman. Men for a man than it is for a woman. Men just go about it differently. And and just go about it differently. And and just go about it differently. And and for a man to understand the value of it for a man to understand the value of it for a man to understand the value of it from a woman, it requires us to slow from a woman, it requires us to slow from a woman, it requires us to slow down and to to have that conversation down and to to have that conversation down and to to have that conversation and understand it and to listen in a way and understand it and to listen in a way and understand it and to listen in a way that we aren't naturally wired to do or that we aren't naturally wired to do or that we aren't naturally wired to do or we don't feel like we can do in our you we don't feel like we can do in our you we don't feel like we can do in our you agree with that. So I agree with it more agree with that. So I agree with it more agree with that. So I agree with it more than almost anything I've ever heard. It than almost anything I've ever heard. It than almost anything I've ever heard. It requires us to slow down. That is number requires us to slow down. That is number requires us to slow down. That is number one. one. one. >> Absolutely. And um >> Absolutely. And um >> Absolutely. And um >> my father always said that. Slow down. >> my father always said that. Slow down. >> my father always said that. Slow down. >> Your dad was a wise man. But um >> Your dad was a wise man. But um >> Your dad was a wise man. But um >> on that topic he was wise. >> on that topic he was wise. >> on that topic he was wise. >> Yep. I I am. So um >> Yep. I I am. So um >> Yep. I I am. So um but yeah, so the first thing that it but yeah, so the first thing that it but yeah, so the first thing that it does is it twists that right you begin does is it twists that right you begin does is it twists that right you begin it presents this these women as these it presents this these women as these it presents this these women as these caricatures of male sexuality and I caricatures of male sexuality and I caricatures of male sexuality and I think that's not fair and I think it think that's not fair and I think it think that's not fair and I think it does a tremendous amount of of of does a tremendous amount of of of does a tremendous amount of of of damage. That's one. Two and again this damage. That's one. Two and again this damage. That's one. Two and again this is not an exhaustive list but two it is not an exhaustive list but two it is not an exhaustive list but two it it's it pushes men into isolation and it's it pushes men into isolation and it's it pushes men into isolation and you know porn pornography addictions or you know porn pornography addictions or you know porn pornography addictions or hidden sexuality these are things that hidden sexuality these are things that hidden sexuality these are things that men you know they don't do out in the men you know they don't do out in the men you know they don't do out in the open. They they they you know they do in open. They they they you know they do in open. They they they you know they do in in secret. They do it in in uh they do in secret. They do it in in uh they do in secret. They do it in in uh they do it in private and they don't tell it in private and they don't tell it in private and they don't tell anybody about it. Right. And the number

anybody about it. Right. And the number anybody about it. Right. And the number one tool that Satan will do use is one tool that Satan will do use is one tool that Satan will do use is isolation. isolation. isolation. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> He will push men into the shadows >> He will push men into the shadows >> He will push men into the shadows because what happens there? That's where because what happens there? That's where because what happens there? That's where shame can grow unfettered shame can grow unfettered shame can grow unfettered >> and that's where you know people feel >> and that's where you know people feel >> and that's where you know people feel broken more you know more perverse and broken more you know more perverse and broken more you know more perverse and where they become more broken and become where they become more broken and become where they become more broken and become more perverse which makes you feel more more perverse which makes you feel more more perverse which makes you feel more and it's this vicious feedback loop that and it's this vicious feedback loop that and it's this vicious feedback loop that it begins to occur. do men, you know, uh it begins to occur. do men, you know, uh it begins to occur. do men, you know, uh they think they're, you know, it always, they think they're, you know, it always, they think they're, you know, it always, you know, it's interesting that always you know, it's interesting that always you know, it's interesting that always starts with, oh, I can handle this and starts with, oh, I can handle this and starts with, oh, I can handle this and it becomes this sort of, you know, I'll it becomes this sort of, you know, I'll it becomes this sort of, you know, I'll smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you smoke a cigarette a day, but the, you know, pornographic version of it, but know, pornographic version of it, but know, pornographic version of it, but before they know it, it becomes a before they know it, it becomes a before they know it, it becomes a consuming uh a consuming thing in their consuming uh a consuming thing in their consuming uh a consuming thing in their lives. And uh so it it that's it drives lives. And uh so it it that's it drives lives. And uh so it it that's it drives them into the shadows which creates them into the shadows which creates them into the shadows which creates isolation which creates shame which isolation which creates shame which isolation which creates shame which creates you know a a you know uh a false creates you know a a you know uh a false creates you know a a you know uh a false sense of self as you walk into marriage. sense of self as you walk into marriage. sense of self as you walk into marriage. And what is marriage? Marriage is as it And what is marriage? Marriage is as it And what is marriage? Marriage is as it was designed. You read you know Genesis was designed. You read you know Genesis was designed. You read you know Genesis chapter 2. What does it say? He he made chapter 2. What does it say? He he made chapter 2. What does it say? He he made right after the passage of you know bone right after the passage of you know bone right after the passage of you know bone of my bone flesh of my flesh. It says of my bone flesh of my flesh. It says of my bone flesh of my flesh. It says they were naked and unashamed that they they were naked and unashamed that they they were naked and unashamed that they stood before each other. That's about stood before each other. That's about stood before each other. That's about sex, but that's also about a spiritual sex, but that's also about a spiritual sex, but that's also about a spiritual heart posture that men and women have in heart posture that men and women have in heart posture that men and women have in front of each other that is front of each other that is front of each other that is all that I am, all that I, you know, all that I am, all that I, you know, all that I am, all that I, you know, seen and unseen. I am I am here before seen and unseen. I am I am here before seen and unseen. I am I am here before you.

you. you. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> And pornography goes to war with that >> And pornography goes to war with that >> And pornography goes to war with that and pushes men into the shadows. And and pushes men into the shadows. And and pushes men into the shadows. And women, too, by the way. This is this is women, too, by the way. This is this is women, too, by the way. This is this is not I mean it is certainly more more not I mean it is certainly more more not I mean it is certainly more more dominated by men but what we've seen dominated by men but what we've seen dominated by men but what we've seen over the years is that this is something over the years is that this is something over the years is that this is something that women contend with as well. Um that women contend with as well. Um that women contend with as well. Um easier for me to talk about cuz I'm a easier for me to talk about cuz I'm a easier for me to talk about cuz I'm a man and you know probably holds more man and you know probably holds more man and you know probably holds more credence but it's uh but it's very real. credence but it's uh but it's very real. credence but it's uh but it's very real. So you know So you know So you know creates caricatures of what sexuality is creates caricatures of what sexuality is creates caricatures of what sexuality is creates charact caricatures of women. It creates charact caricatures of women. It creates charact caricatures of women. It >> it screws up your sex life doesn't it? >> it screws up your sex life doesn't it? >> it screws up your sex life doesn't it? >> It Yeah. So it and and then the other >> It Yeah. So it and and then the other >> It Yeah. So it and and then the other thing is is what we said again, you thing is is what we said again, you thing is is what we said again, you know, our human sexuality, our you know, know, our human sexuality, our you know, know, our human sexuality, our you know, our sex drives, they're malleable, our sex drives, they're malleable, our sex drives, they're malleable, right? And you feed that into those sort right? And you feed that into those sort right? And you feed that into those sort of those, you know, perversions or those of those, you know, perversions or those of those, you know, perversions or those you marinate in that kind of stuff, it you marinate in that kind of stuff, it you marinate in that kind of stuff, it will take you places you don't want to will take you places you don't want to will take you places you don't want to go. go. go. >> My father when I was little said to this >> My father when I was little said to this >> My father when I was little said to this is so over the top, but I remember it.

is so over the top, but I remember it. is so over the top, but I remember it. It was my favorite line ever. I never It was my favorite line ever. I never It was my favorite line ever. I never say it because it's so over the top, but say it because it's so over the top, but say it because it's so over the top, but I remember driving in the car with him I remember driving in the car with him I remember driving in the car with him and he was telling we were like eight and he was telling we were like eight and he was telling we were like eight and 10 or something and something about and 10 or something and something about and 10 or something and something about pornography came up. He goes, "Yeah, pornography came up. He goes, "Yeah, pornography came up. He goes, "Yeah, it's a really bad idea. It makes you it's a really bad idea. It makes you it's a really bad idea. It makes you perverse." And he said, "Your sexuality perverse." And he said, "Your sexuality perverse." And he said, "Your sexuality is like a grain of on of wood. So if you is like a grain of on of wood. So if you is like a grain of on of wood. So if you take your fingernail and run it along a take your fingernail and run it along a take your fingernail and run it along a kitchen a wooden kitchen table, it gets kitchen a wooden kitchen table, it gets kitchen a wooden kitchen table, it gets deeper with every pass." And he said, deeper with every pass." And he said, deeper with every pass." And he said, 'If you get into that, my father's very 'If you get into that, my father's very 'If you get into that, my father's very pro-s sex, like very pro-sex, but he pro-s sex, like very pro-sex, but he pro-s sex, like very pro-sex, but he goes, "It's a dark road, and you keep goes, "It's a dark road, and you keep goes, "It's a dark road, and you keep getting it gets weirder and weirder and getting it gets weirder and weirder and getting it gets weirder and weirder and weirder, and the next thing you know, weirder, and the next thing you know, weirder, and the next thing you know, you can't get it up unless you're you can't get it up unless you're you can't get it up unless you're wearing a chicken costume." That's what wearing a chicken costume." That's what wearing a chicken costume." That's what he said. I have no idea what that means, he said. I have no idea what that means, he said. I have no idea what that means, but it stayed with me for 45 years. but it stayed with me for 45 years. but it stayed with me for 45 years. Like, a chicken costume. Like, a chicken costume. Like, a chicken costume. >> Your dad had a chicken costume? >> Your dad had a chicken costume? >> Your dad had a chicken costume? >> I don't know. No, he did not have a >> I don't know. No, he did not have a >> I don't know. No, he did not have a chicken costume. He was very proud of chicken costume. He was very proud of chicken costume. He was very proud of not having a costume, but not having a costume, but not having a costume, but >> I understand. >> I understand. >> I understand. >> That's hilarious. >> That's hilarious. >> That's hilarious. >> I think he may have phrased it that way. >> I think he may have phrased it that way. >> I think he may have phrased it that way. It was just so evocative that it like It was just so evocative that it like It was just so evocative that it like never I wish my brother was here. He never I wish my brother was here. He never I wish my brother was here. He would confirm this like I never stopped would confirm this like I never stopped would confirm this like I never stopped thinking.

thinking. thinking. >> I knew your dad. I I believe that 100%. >> I knew your dad. I I believe that 100%. >> I knew your dad. I I believe that 100%. I know your your dad was awesome. Your I know your your dad was awesome. Your I know your your dad was awesome. Your dad was awesome. dad was awesome. dad was awesome. >> You can't get enough unless you're >> You can't get enough unless you're >> You can't get enough unless you're wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh so wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh so wearing a chicken costume. Anyway, uh so but that's the kind of what you're but that's the kind of what you're but that's the kind of what you're talking about. I I do I think it takes talking about. I I do I think it takes talking about. I I do I think it takes you again it takes you places. It's it's you again it takes you places. It's it's you again it takes you places. It's it's the law of diminishing returns. the law of diminishing returns. the law of diminishing returns. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Mhm. >> Right. So, you know what? It's it's it's >> Right. So, you know what? It's it's it's >> Right. So, you know what? It's it's it's like, okay, you need a this amount of like, okay, you need a this amount of like, okay, you need a this amount of heroin to begin with, and before you heroin to begin with, and before you heroin to begin with, and before you know, you know, you quadrupled the dose. know, you know, you quadrupled the dose. know, you know, you quadrupled the dose. And it's it's all about the dopamine And it's it's all about the dopamine And it's it's all about the dopamine hit. You know, you it's the same. Our hit. You know, you it's the same. Our hit. You know, you it's the same. Our sexuality is no different sexuality is no different sexuality is no different >> that it when it's taken out of context, >> that it when it's taken out of context, >> that it when it's taken out of context, when it's taken into those places, when when it's taken into those places, when when it's taken into those places, when it's used in a way that God did not it's used in a way that God did not it's used in a way that God did not intend it, like God God's design for it intend it, like God God's design for it intend it, like God God's design for it is not to be prudish and to keep you is not to be prudish and to keep you is not to be prudish and to keep you from having a good time. Like, from having a good time. Like, from having a good time. Like, >> of course, >> of course, >> of course, >> right? I mean, and it it's the idea of >> right? I mean, and it it's the idea of >> right? I mean, and it it's the idea of like how can this flourish and become like how can this flourish and become like how can this flourish and become something that doesn't that that is life something that doesn't that that is life something that doesn't that that is life producing and literally, but also that producing and literally, but also that producing and literally, but also that breeds intimacy between a man and a breeds intimacy between a man and a breeds intimacy between a man and a woman that breeds uh connection between woman that breeds uh connection between woman that breeds uh connection between a man and a woman that breeds a sense of a man and a woman that breeds a sense of a man and a woman that breeds a sense of just wonder and and awe and just beauty, just wonder and and awe and just beauty, just wonder and and awe and just beauty, right? And that was his design for it.

right? And that was his design for it. right? And that was his design for it. >> And when you step out of that boat, man, >> And when you step out of that boat, man, >> And when you step out of that boat, man, like it does everything I just like it does everything I just like it does everything I just described, it does the opposite of that. described, it does the opposite of that. described, it does the opposite of that. You know, if there's one thing I could You know, if there's one thing I could You know, if there's one thing I could tell young people, it's it's protect tell young people, it's it's protect tell young people, it's it's protect that with all that you are because the that with all that you are because the that with all that you are because the world is lying to you. It's lying to you world is lying to you. It's lying to you world is lying to you. It's lying to you about about, you know, the frivolous, about about, you know, the frivolous, about about, you know, the frivolous, oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big oh, it's no big deal. No, it is a big deal. It has profound spiritual deal. It has profound spiritual deal. It has profound spiritual implications for you. It has it has it implications for you. It has it has it implications for you. It has it has it can take you places that one day you can take you places that one day you can take you places that one day you wake up and you say, I I don't want to wake up and you say, I I don't want to wake up and you say, I I don't want to be here and I don't know how to get be here and I don't know how to get be here and I don't know how to get back. Right? There is the good news. back. Right? There is the good news. back. Right? There is the good news. I'll say this if you have they have been I'll say this if you have they have been I'll say this if you have they have been there and I' I've seen this over and there and I' I've seen this over and there and I' I've seen this over and over again you know oh you know it's I'm over again you know oh you know it's I'm over again you know oh you know it's I'm damaged goods now no you're not like damaged goods now no you're not like damaged goods now no you're not like this is God uses the broken things of this is God uses the broken things of this is God uses the broken things of this world right this world right this world right >> and he's I mean I I the places I've been >> and he's I mean I I the places I've been >> and he's I mean I I the places I've been the places you've been the things we've the places you've been the things we've the places you've been the things we've done in our lives like we're God done in our lives like we're God done in our lives like we're God is all about the prodigals is all about the prodigals is all about the prodigals and there's no there's no one that is and there's no there's no one that is and there's no there's no one that is beyond redemption and healing and God beyond redemption and healing and God beyond redemption and healing and God loves to restore that because God loves loves to restore that because God loves loves to restore that because God loves that Right? It ain't fun, right? It's that Right? It ain't fun, right? It's that Right? It ain't fun, right? It's not a place you want to go, but if not a place you want to go, but if not a place you want to go, but if that's where you are and that's what that's where you are and that's what that's where you are and that's what you've done, it's okay. There's a God of you've done, it's okay. There's a God of you've done, it's okay. There's a God of grace that that the reason, you know, grace that that the reason, you know, grace that that the reason, you know, Jesus doesn't put see that and that and Jesus doesn't put see that and that and Jesus doesn't put see that and that and that's why Jesus steps back from the that's why Jesus steps back from the that's why Jesus steps back from the table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus table. Actually, that's the reason Jesus came because we misuse sexualities came because we misuse sexualities came because we misuse sexualities >> because we, you know, we we we're bathed >> because we, you know, we we we're bathed >> because we, you know, we we we're bathed in our own shame because we we make bad in our own shame because we we make bad in our own shame because we we make bad decisions because we're so committed to decisions because we're so committed to decisions because we're so committed to our own self-destruct. That's why he

our own self-destruct. That's why he our own self-destruct. That's why he calls him self-destruction. That's why calls him self-destruction. That's why calls him self-destruction. That's why he calls himself a savior and not a, you he calls himself a savior and not a, you he calls himself a savior and not a, you know, a self-help guru because cuz I I know, a self-help guru because cuz I I know, a self-help guru because cuz I I need a savior. I need someone to reach need a savior. I need someone to reach need a savior. I need someone to reach down and pull me up and and save me from down and pull me up and and save me from down and pull me up and and save me from me. me. me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. It's not just Yes. There's a on a >> Right. It's not just Yes. There's a on a >> Right. It's not just Yes. There's a on a theological level, he saves me from sin theological level, he saves me from sin theological level, he saves me from sin and he washes me clean and my, you know, and he washes me clean and my, you know, and he washes me clean and my, you know, my standing before God and all of those my standing before God and all of those my standing before God and all of those things which is deep and profound and things which is deep and profound and things which is deep and profound and eternal and, you know, worthy of eternal and, you know, worthy of eternal and, you know, worthy of reflection for, you know, thousands of reflection for, you know, thousands of reflection for, you know, thousands of years. years. years. But But But when you boil it down, he really came to when you boil it down, he really came to when you boil it down, he really came to save me from me. save me from me. save me from me. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, from my own devices and where >> You know, from my own devices and where >> You know, from my own devices and where I would go. I mean, you think of I would go. I mean, you think of I would go. I mean, you think of the number of things that God has saved the number of things that God has saved the number of things that God has saved you from that you're not aware of, you from that you're not aware of, you from that you're not aware of, right? right? right? >> There's a long list of things I am aware >> There's a long list of things I am aware >> There's a long list of things I am aware of. of. of. >> Right. But so, think about how dramatic >> Right. But so, think about how dramatic >> Right. But so, think about how dramatic the thing how dramatic the list is that the thing how dramatic the list is that the thing how dramatic the list is that he saved you from that you didn't even he saved you from that you didn't even he saved you from that you didn't even get to see, right? and and get to see, right? and and get to see, right? and and you know even the way he's restrained you know even the way he's restrained you know even the way he's restrained your own appetites in those places that your own appetites in those places that your own appetites in those places that you didn't even know you know and uh so you didn't even know you know and uh so you didn't even know you know and uh so yeah going back to your question I do yeah going back to your question I do yeah going back to your question I do think pornography it's evil and it's think pornography it's evil and it's think pornography it's evil and it's done so much damage and you know as you done so much damage and you know as you done so much damage and you know as you said I think there's going to be a I said I think there's going to be a I said I think there's going to be a I don't know what the word you use like a don't know what the word you use like a don't know what the word you use like a revolution against it but I don't think revolution against it but I don't think revolution against it but I don't think that's ever going to happen until we that's ever going to happen until we that's ever going to happen until we have an actual revival again which man have an actual revival again which man have an actual revival again which man we need that but we have to we've lost

we need that but we have to we've lost we need that but we have to we've lost the plot and you lose the plot in the plot and you lose the plot in the plot and you lose the plot in sexuality talking about that you lose sexuality talking about that you lose sexuality talking about that you lose the plot of the the gospel story the the plot of the the gospel story the the plot of the the gospel story the creation story you and your story just creation story you and your story just creation story you and your story just kind of becomes about your narrative of kind of becomes about your narrative of kind of becomes about your narrative of h my sex life then you know it it h my sex life then you know it it h my sex life then you know it it becomes a very dangerous thing when you becomes a very dangerous thing when you becomes a very dangerous thing when you read it in light of like what we're read it in light of like what we're read it in light of like what we're talking about you you took you know we talking about you you took you know we talking about you you took you know we just kind of touched on it but you read just kind of touched on it but you read just kind of touched on it but you read the Genesis story and God's creative the Genesis story and God's creative the Genesis story and God's creative intention for that stuff all of a sudden intention for that stuff all of a sudden intention for that stuff all of a sudden you become invited into into this larger you become invited into into this larger you become invited into into this larger epic tale that becomes about something epic tale that becomes about something epic tale that becomes about something so much more. And what you again your so much more. And what you again your so much more. And what you again your soul is of so much more immense value soul is of so much more immense value soul is of so much more immense value than you ever imagined it was. And it's than you ever imagined it was. And it's than you ever imagined it was. And it's to be to to be a part of something to be to to be a part of something to be to to be a part of something that's so much more incredible than that's so much more incredible than that's so much more incredible than anything that you could ever cobble anything that you could ever cobble anything that you could ever cobble together on your own. Why wouldn't you together on your own. Why wouldn't you together on your own. Why wouldn't you want that? Right? want that? Right? want that? Right? You You're the person who put the You You're the person who put the You You're the person who put the gender stuff in context for me when this gender stuff in context for me when this gender stuff in context for me when this first happened. first happened. first happened. people questioning whether gender is people questioning whether gender is people questioning whether gender is real. You know, sex distinctions are real. You know, sex distinctions are real. You know, sex distinctions are real. Yeah. This has been going on for real. Yeah. This has been going on for real. Yeah. This has been going on for >> 70 years. Of course, it's the core >> 70 years. Of course, it's the core >> 70 years. Of course, it's the core premise of of second-wave feminism that premise of of second-wave feminism that premise of of second-wave feminism that really there's no difference between the really there's no difference between the really there's no difference between the sexes. So, I obviously rejected that.

sexes. So, I obviously rejected that. sexes. So, I obviously rejected that. But then it became much more radical 10 But then it became much more radical 10 But then it became much more radical 10 maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike maybe 10 years ago. Doesn't it strike you but even in every context you but even in every context you but even in every context that you know be it secular or in church that you know be it secular or in church that you know be it secular or in church context when people argue you know there context when people argue you know there context when people argue you know there are no gender distinctions you know you are no gender distinctions you know you are no gender distinctions you know you can make theological arguments you know can make theological arguments you know can make theological arguments you know biblical arguments whatever but just biblical arguments whatever but just biblical arguments whatever but just simply saying that like hey before 70 simply saying that like hey before 70 simply saying that like hey before 70 years ago literally no one agreed with years ago literally no one agreed with years ago literally no one agreed with us like you can't really find a place us like you can't really find a place us like you can't really find a place that where so in all human history that where so in all human history that where so in all human history >> in all human history so I'm not going to >> in all human history so I'm not going to >> in all human history so I'm not going to even argue I'm right or I'm wrong. But even argue I'm right or I'm wrong. But even argue I'm right or I'm wrong. But doesn't that make you want to pump the doesn't that make you want to pump the doesn't that make you want to pump the brakes a little bit? brakes a little bit? brakes a little bit? >> No, because we have atomic weapons now. >> No, because we have atomic weapons now. >> No, because we have atomic weapons now. And I'm to this. Let me just indulge my And I'm to this. Let me just indulge my And I'm to this. Let me just indulge my theory, which I can't control myself theory, which I can't control myself theory, which I can't control myself from talking about. from talking about. from talking about. >> Run, baby. >> Run, baby. >> Run, baby. >> You've heard it before, but I just think >> You've heard it before, but I just think >> You've heard it before, but I just think I think nuclear weapons, which I don't I think nuclear weapons, which I don't I think nuclear weapons, which I don't think were created by people. Sorry. I think were created by people. Sorry. I think were created by people. Sorry. I don't care how many movies they make don't care how many movies they make don't care how many movies they make about it. I don't believe that. about it. I don't believe that. about it. I don't believe that. >> Oppenheimer. >> Oppenheimer. >> Oppenheimer. >> Yeah. Okay. I wouldn't watch that crap.

>> Yeah. Okay. I wouldn't watch that crap. >> Yeah. Okay. I wouldn't watch that crap. I wouldn't let that into my head for one I wouldn't let that into my head for one I wouldn't let that into my head for one second. But anyway, because it's all second. But anyway, because it's all second. But anyway, because it's all lies. But anyway, sorry now I'm getting lies. But anyway, sorry now I'm getting lies. But anyway, sorry now I'm getting really crazy, but it's all true. What really crazy, but it's all true. What really crazy, but it's all true. What I'm saying is true. I think once man I'm saying is true. I think once man I'm saying is true. I think once man possessed the power or believed he possessed the power or believed he possessed the power or believed he possessed the power to destroy possessed the power to destroy possessed the power to destroy everything that's alive. I think that he everything that's alive. I think that he everything that's alive. I think that he rejected God. Like that is kind of like rejected God. Like that is kind of like rejected God. Like that is kind of like reject that's rejection of God. And like reject that's rejection of God. And like reject that's rejection of God. And like everything changed after that. People everything changed after that. People everything changed after that. People became convinced they were gods and became convinced they were gods and became convinced they were gods and that's when the true craziness started. that's when the true craziness started. that's when the true craziness started. It's not the ' 60s, the 60s or the, you It's not the ' 60s, the 60s or the, you It's not the ' 60s, the 60s or the, you know, Obama years or whatever you want know, Obama years or whatever you want know, Obama years or whatever you want era. It's like postnuclear weapons. era. It's like postnuclear weapons. era. It's like postnuclear weapons. That's what I believe. So anyway, but That's what I believe. So anyway, but That's what I believe. So anyway, but the gender thing kind of exploded maybe the gender thing kind of exploded maybe the gender thing kind of exploded maybe 10 years ago with this like really we're 10 years ago with this like really we're 10 years ago with this like really we're going to assign the child a gender or going to assign the child a gender or going to assign the child a gender or let him choose his gender or whatever. let him choose his gender or whatever. let him choose his gender or whatever. And I was like confused, but I thought And I was like confused, but I thought And I was like confused, but I thought it was so crazy that I just didn't take it was so crazy that I just didn't take it was so crazy that I just didn't take it seriously at all. And you're the one it seriously at all. And you're the one it seriously at all. And you're the one who made me take it seriously. And you who made me take it seriously. And you who made me take it seriously. And you said, I'll never forget it. You said said, I'll never forget it. You said said, I'll never forget it. You said this is a direct attack on God's design this is a direct attack on God's design this is a direct attack on God's design as described in Genesis. So, can you as described in Genesis. So, can you as described in Genesis. So, can you flesh it out a little bit? This is not flesh it out a little bit? This is not flesh it out a little bit? This is not like an accident like this was always like an accident like this was always like an accident like this was always going to happen is basically what you going to happen is basically what you going to happen is basically what you said. Yeah. Well, said. Yeah. Well, said. Yeah. Well, when you read the Genesis narrative, when you read the Genesis narrative, when you read the Genesis narrative, right? You know, again, God God, you right? You know, again, God God, you right? You know, again, God God, you know, in the beginning, God creates the know, in the beginning, God creates the know, in the beginning, God creates the heaven and the earth, and you have this heaven and the earth, and you have this heaven and the earth, and you have this picture of this sort of chaos that picture of this sort of chaos that picture of this sort of chaos that happens and the and God's spirit hovers happens and the and God's spirit hovers happens and the and God's spirit hovers over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it over the water. You know, the Hebrew, it it's it's it's the it's the hovering is it's it's it's the it's the hovering is it's it's it's the it's the hovering is almost like a mother bird's wings almost like a mother bird's wings almost like a mother bird's wings hovering over the chaos. And he begins

hovering over the chaos. And he begins hovering over the chaos. And he begins to speak things into order. And you to speak things into order. And you to speak things into order. And you know, you got day one and he creates know, you got day one and he creates know, you got day one and he creates light and he's, you know, as it grows, light and he's, you know, as it grows, light and he's, you know, as it grows, he separates the land from the from the he separates the land from the from the he separates the land from the from the waters and he throws the stars in the waters and he throws the stars in the waters and he throws the stars in the sky and he shoots this fish in the sea sky and he shoots this fish in the sea sky and he shoots this fish in the sea and the animals come and then each time and the animals come and then each time and the animals come and then each time you see each created order or each you see each created order or each you see each created order or each creative day, what you're watching is it creative day, what you're watching is it creative day, what you're watching is it grows in glory. It grows in complexity, grows in glory. It grows in complexity, grows in glory. It grows in complexity, but it glow it grows in glory. And each but it glow it grows in glory. And each but it glow it grows in glory. And each time God is it's good. It's good. And time God is it's good. It's good. And time God is it's good. It's good. And then you get to day six where God then you get to day six where God then you get to day six where God creates humanity and it's this sort of creates humanity and it's this sort of creates humanity and it's this sort of crowning explosion of creation. The the crowning explosion of creation. The the crowning explosion of creation. The the the largest expression of his glory the largest expression of his glory the largest expression of his glory actually the crown jewel of creation was actually the crown jewel of creation was actually the crown jewel of creation was the last thing which was created and the last thing which was created and the last thing which was created and that was those were women. That is the that was those were women. That is the that was those were women. That is the final most glorious creation and and final most glorious creation and and final most glorious creation and and >> that's certainly how I feel. >> that's certainly how I feel. >> that's certainly how I feel. >> Yeah. And that's the way the story needs >> Yeah. And that's the way the story needs >> Yeah. And that's the way the story needs to be read. Right. So if people just to be read. Right. So if people just to be read. Right. So if people just side note is you know women always it's side note is you know women always it's side note is you know women always it's and I I have sympathy for it for there's and I I have sympathy for it for there's and I I have sympathy for it for there's much the church needs to apologize for much the church needs to apologize for much the church needs to apologize for for the ways that they've hurt women for the ways that they've hurt women for the ways that they've hurt women over in the past but I can tell you from over in the past but I can tell you from over in the past but I can tell you from a from as a as a Bible nerd I can tell a from as a as a Bible nerd I can tell a from as a as a Bible nerd I can tell you that that is the fault of man and you that that is the fault of man and you that that is the fault of man and not of God because the the the biblical not of God because the the the biblical not of God because the the the biblical story elevates women in a way that that story elevates women in a way that that story elevates women in a way that that that the world never would they would that the world never would they would that the world never would they would anyway. So back to our point. So in this anyway. So back to our point. So in this anyway. So back to our point. So in this crown jewel of creation with humanity, crown jewel of creation with humanity, crown jewel of creation with humanity, he could have expressed it in any way he could have expressed it in any way he could have expressed it in any way and he and he and he created man as he and he and he and he created man as he and he and he and he created man as he created man and he created woman. You

created man and he created woman. You created man and he created woman. You know they are they are they he created know they are they are they he created know they are they are they he created masculinity and he created femininity. masculinity and he created femininity. masculinity and he created femininity. This is not a human construct. It is not This is not a human construct. It is not This is not a human construct. It is not a social construct. Of course there are a social construct. Of course there are a social construct. Of course there are things that that you know cultures and things that that you know cultures and things that that you know cultures and you know you know cultural moments can you know you know cultural moments can you know you know cultural moments can shape the way those are expressed but shape the way those are expressed but shape the way those are expressed but generally speaking masculinity as we generally speaking masculinity as we generally speaking masculinity as we understand it's it's not just oh you're understand it's it's not just oh you're understand it's it's not just oh you're a dude it's a holy calling. It's a holy a dude it's a holy calling. It's a holy a dude it's a holy calling. It's a holy calling and as God says you are his calling and as God says you are his calling and as God says you are his imagebearer in this world and women are imagebearer in this world and women are imagebearer in this world and women are his imagebearers that come together to his imagebearers that come together to his imagebearers that come together to create this fuller image of what God is create this fuller image of what God is create this fuller image of what God is to be expressed and rolled out into the to be expressed and rolled out into the to be expressed and rolled out into the world as their image. We it would world as their image. We it would world as their image. We it would behoove us to understand what is this behoove us to understand what is this behoove us to understand what is this thing called masculinity that I've been thing called masculinity that I've been thing called masculinity that I've been saddled with or I've been I have been saddled with or I've been I have been saddled with or I've been I have been called to what is femininity that I have called to what is femininity that I have called to what is femininity that I have been called to? and is as men uh I think been called to? and is as men uh I think been called to? and is as men uh I think well to your point I think that's a that well to your point I think that's a that well to your point I think that's a that that you cannot there's many people that that you cannot there's many people that that you cannot there's many people that make theological arguments against what make theological arguments against what make theological arguments against what I just said and okay you can make many I just said and okay you can make many I just said and okay you can make many theological arguments you just can't theological arguments you just can't theological arguments you just can't make a biblical argument against what I make a biblical argument against what I make a biblical argument against what I just said you just can't read the the just said you just can't read the the just said you just can't read the the scripture in any just intellectually scripture in any just intellectually scripture in any just intellectually honest way and just not see that that's honest way and just not see that that's honest way and just not see that that's just the way it is and also just the way it is and also just the way it is and also experientially it just experientially it just experientially it just >> well I know it's true experientially >> well I know it's true experientially >> well I know it's true experientially Because God also doss out punishments Because God also doss out punishments Because God also doss out punishments for eating the fruit. And he says to for eating the fruit. And he says to for eating the fruit. And he says to Adam, you're going to live by the sweat Adam, you're going to live by the sweat Adam, you're going to live by the sweat of your brow. It's going to be hard for

of your brow. It's going to be hard for of your brow. It's going to be hard for you to make a living. You got to work. you to make a living. You got to work. you to make a living. You got to work. >> Thorns and thistles, futility. Yeah. >> Thorns and thistles, futility. Yeah. >> Thorns and thistles, futility. Yeah. >> And he says to Eve, two things. One, >> And he says to Eve, two things. One, >> And he says to Eve, two things. One, child birth is going to be hard for you. child birth is going to be hard for you. child birth is going to be hard for you. And two, your desire is going to be for And two, your desire is going to be for And two, your desire is going to be for your husband. your husband. your husband. >> Rule over them. >> Rule over them. >> Rule over them. >> And he's going to rule over you. And >> And he's going to rule over you. And >> And he's going to rule over you. And those are the things that men and women those are the things that men and women those are the things that men and women resent. I've noticed, you know, men need resent. I've noticed, you know, men need resent. I've noticed, you know, men need to work. They derive satisfaction and to work. They derive satisfaction and to work. They derive satisfaction and self-respect from work, but they also self-respect from work, but they also self-respect from work, but they also hate to work because it's hard. hate to work because it's hard. hate to work because it's hard. >> Women, of course, most women love >> Women, of course, most women love >> Women, of course, most women love children, but they they fear child birth children, but they they fear child birth children, but they they fear child birth and that is suffering. And there is a and that is suffering. And there is a and that is suffering. And there is a sense in which women resent. sense in which women resent. sense in which women resent. Men hate work and women might resent Men hate work and women might resent Men hate work and women might resent that stuff. We can we can do that. But that stuff. We can we can do that. But that stuff. We can we can do that. But when we lose the plot, but when we step when we lose the plot, but when we step when we lose the plot, but when we step back into the story, right, when we back into the story, right, when we back into the story, right, when we through, you know, when we when we through, you know, when we when we through, you know, when we when we encounter God in a real way through the encounter God in a real way through the encounter God in a real way through the through the through the gate of Jesus, through the through the gate of Jesus, through the through the gate of Jesus, we go through and begin to see the we go through and begin to see the we go through and begin to see the redemptive story. But when we see the redemptive story. But when we see the redemptive story. But when we see the creation story and the creation purpose creation story and the creation purpose creation story and the creation purpose like we just described and you realize, like we just described and you realize, like we just described and you realize, wait, this is a holy calling. I'm wait, this is a holy calling. I'm wait, this is a holy calling. I'm actually what what was God when God actually what what was God when God actually what what was God when God called Adam? Work was called Adam? Work was called Adam? Work was work didn't happen after the fall.

work didn't happen after the fall. work didn't happen after the fall. God's purpose was work for Adam. He God's purpose was work for Adam. He God's purpose was work for Adam. He said, "I want you," again, we said said, "I want you," again, we said said, "I want you," again, we said again, God created Edom, Eden, which was again, God created Edom, Eden, which was again, God created Edom, Eden, which was this holy place, this, but the rest of this holy place, this, but the rest of this holy place, this, but the rest of the world wasn't like Eden. And when he the world wasn't like Eden. And when he the world wasn't like Eden. And when he says to Adam, I want you to exercise says to Adam, I want you to exercise says to Adam, I want you to exercise dominion. What he's saying is not just dominion. What he's saying is not just dominion. What he's saying is not just I'm putting you in charge. What he was I'm putting you in charge. What he was I'm putting you in charge. What he was saying is, I'm giving you a job and I saying is, I'm giving you a job and I saying is, I'm giving you a job and I want you to take what is in Eden and I want you to take what is in Eden and I want you to take what is in Eden and I want you to take it all around the rest want you to take it all around the rest want you to take it all around the rest of the world. I want you to turn the of the world. I want you to turn the of the world. I want you to turn the world into into this. I want you to drag world into into this. I want you to drag world into into this. I want you to drag the realities of this out and create go the realities of this out and create go the realities of this out and create go be ruth ruthlessly human in relationship be ruth ruthlessly human in relationship be ruth ruthlessly human in relationship with God. Go create cities and art and with God. Go create cities and art and with God. Go create cities and art and cuisine and all these things like cuisine and all these things like cuisine and all these things like become, you know, become build out the become, you know, become build out the become, you know, become build out the kingdom of God, right? And when you see kingdom of God, right? And when you see kingdom of God, right? And when you see that when Jesus came talking about the that when Jesus came talking about the that when Jesus came talking about the kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's kingdom of God, it wasn't plan B. He's grabbing plan A and just saying that grabbing plan A and just saying that grabbing plan A and just saying that we're we're reinstitut. It's all about we're we're reinstitut. It's all about we're we're reinstitut. It's all about that. And so when you see in Revelation that. And so when you see in Revelation that. And so when you see in Revelation 21, which is the end of the story, where 21, which is the end of the story, where 21, which is the end of the story, where it says, "Behold, I see, you know, the it says, "Behold, I see, you know, the it says, "Behold, I see, you know, the new heavens and the new earth are coming new heavens and the new earth are coming new heavens and the new earth are coming down, and behold, I'm making all things down, and behold, I'm making all things down, and behold, I'm making all things new." And and and it's this glorious new." And and and it's this glorious new." And and and it's this glorious picture of of the consummation of all picture of of the consummation of all picture of of the consummation of all things. That holy city that's coming things. That holy city that's coming things. That holy city that's coming down, that was the city that Adam was down, that was the city that Adam was down, that was the city that Adam was supposed to have built. And all of a supposed to have built. And all of a supposed to have built. And all of a sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the sudden, where Adam failed, Jesus is the second Adam. He succeeded and he came second Adam. He succeeded and he came second Adam. He succeeded and he came and he made this happen. Why does that and he made this happen. Why does that and he made this happen. Why does that matter? How does this go into to our uh matter? How does this go into to our uh matter? How does this go into to our uh this question about man being working this question about man being working this question about man being working and you know uh and all the the sense of and you know uh and all the the sense of and you know uh and all the the sense of futility?

futility? futility? Not only is masculinity a holy calling, Not only is masculinity a holy calling, Not only is masculinity a holy calling, but the work that we're we are to put but the work that we're we are to put but the work that we're we are to put our our hands to when we have now a our our hands to when we have now a our our hands to when we have now a gospel lens. When Jesus says the the gospel lens. When Jesus says the the gospel lens. When Jesus says the the kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be kingdom of God is at hand, we get to be participants now in in the original participants now in in the original participants now in in the original mandate that how do we bring and build mandate that how do we bring and build mandate that how do we bring and build the kingdom of God here and now? and all the kingdom of God here and now? and all the kingdom of God here and now? and all of a sudden animates. I don't care if of a sudden animates. I don't care if of a sudden animates. I don't care if you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or you're a plumber or you're a lawyer or you're a, you know, baker, a candlestick you're a, you know, baker, a candlestick you're a, you know, baker, a candlestick maker, that all of a sudden we are now maker, that all of a sudden we are now maker, that all of a sudden we are now participants in something that God is participants in something that God is participants in something that God is doing that we get to bring the realities doing that we get to bring the realities doing that we get to bring the realities to bear in our world. And that that to bear in our world. And that that to bear in our world. And that that sense of futility uh I think when we we sense of futility uh I think when we we sense of futility uh I think when we we can maintain that perspective, I don't can maintain that perspective, I don't can maintain that perspective, I don't think our sense of futility can stand think our sense of futility can stand think our sense of futility can stand or it goes to war with our sense of or it goes to war with our sense of or it goes to war with our sense of futility. Does that make sense? futility. Does that make sense? futility. Does that make sense? >> It does make sense. Can I add one liner >> It does make sense. Can I add one liner >> It does make sense. Can I add one liner note, please? Eden was what? Physically, note, please? Eden was what? Physically, note, please? Eden was what? Physically, it was a land of rivers and trees. it was a land of rivers and trees. it was a land of rivers and trees. Great question. I'm a I'm a Genesis Great question. I'm a I'm a Genesis Great question. I'm a I'm a Genesis nerd, so I'm going to go here. nerd, so I'm going to go here. nerd, so I'm going to go here. >> Rivers and trees though, correct?

>> Rivers and trees though, correct? >> Rivers and trees though, correct? >> Uh, rivers and trees. >> Uh, rivers and trees. >> Uh, rivers and trees. >> Okay. So, Eden was also, I believe it >> Okay. So, Eden was also, I believe it >> Okay. So, Eden was also, I believe it says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a says in Ezekiel, it describes it as on a mountain, which we is kind of a lost mountain, which we is kind of a lost mountain, which we is kind of a lost fact. Um, so rivers, trees, and fact. Um, so rivers, trees, and fact. Um, so rivers, trees, and mountains mountains mountains >> and a place where God, the divine and >> and a place where God, the divine and >> and a place where God, the divine and the human and and the human over the human and and the human over the human and and the human over overlapped and and dwelled together. overlapped and and dwelled together. overlapped and and dwelled together. >> So maybe there's a reason that when >> So maybe there's a reason that when >> So maybe there's a reason that when people are in office buildings, they people are in office buildings, they people are in office buildings, they feel differently from the way they feel feel differently from the way they feel feel differently from the way they feel when they're next to rivers hanging out. when they're next to rivers hanging out. when they're next to rivers hanging out. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. >> And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and >> And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and >> And maybe anyone who destroys rivers and trees is on the wrong side. trees is on the wrong side. trees is on the wrong side. >> The Lorax might have had a point. I >> The Lorax might have had a point. I >> The Lorax might have had a point. I really believe that. I believe that. I really believe that. I believe that. I really believe that. I believe that. I believe that trees are really important. believe that trees are really important. believe that trees are really important. They're all over the Bible. I think They're all over the Bible. I think They're all over the Bible. I think cedar has a special place. But you look cedar has a special place. But you look cedar has a special place. But you look at it. at it. at it. >> It's true. But you you but you when you >> It's true. But you you but you when you >> It's true. But you you but you when you read again going back to the creation read again going back to the creation read again going back to the creation story, story, story, >> each creation's day after God made the >> each creation's day after God made the >> each creation's day after God made the trees and what did he say? He says it's trees and what did he say? He says it's trees and what did he say? He says it's good. It was good in and of itself good. It was good in and of itself good. It was good in and of itself because he found pleasure in Amen. Not because he found pleasure in Amen. Not because he found pleasure in Amen. Not just for its utility. Not to but it's just for its utility. Not to but it's just for its utility. Not to but it's also also also >> um >> um >> um >> not just for its utility. That's not >> not just for its utility. That's not >> not just for its utility. That's not just for it utility. It's for and so just for it utility. It's for and so just for it utility. It's for and so we're when Adam was to exercise we're when Adam was to exercise we're when Adam was to exercise dominion, it wasn't like what are you dominion, it wasn't like what are you dominion, it wasn't like what are you going to kill and cut down? It was how going to kill and cut down? It was how going to kill and cut down? It was how are you going to nurture? Exactly. How are you going to nurture? Exactly. How are you going to nurture? Exactly. How are you going to take this and bring it are you going to take this and bring it are you going to take this and bring it everywhere? Well, that's why when people everywhere? Well, that's why when people everywhere? Well, that's why when people get in that kind of relationship with get in that kind of relationship with get in that kind of relationship with nature, they feel a deep satisfaction nature, they feel a deep satisfaction nature, they feel a deep satisfaction and a peace that is clearly from God.

and a peace that is clearly from God. and a peace that is clearly from God. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> 100%. >> So when you deny people that, that is >> So when you deny people that, that is >> So when you deny people that, that is when you deny them beauty, when you when you deny them beauty, when you when you deny them beauty, when you destroy beauty, God's created beauty, destroy beauty, God's created beauty, destroy beauty, God's created beauty, that is not good. I just preached on that is not good. I just preached on that is not good. I just preached on this the other night, but is that the this the other night, but is that the this the other night, but is that the idea um idea um idea um of of of redemption and the idea of recreation redemption and the idea of recreation redemption and the idea of recreation when you Genesis I think it's 3:17 where when you Genesis I think it's 3:17 where when you Genesis I think it's 3:17 where it says talking about you know thorns it says talking about you know thorns it says talking about you know thorns and thistles and we'll push back one of and thistles and we'll push back one of and thistles and we'll push back one of the lines is it says cursed is the the lines is it says cursed is the the lines is it says cursed is the ground because of you God speaking and ground because of you God speaking and ground because of you God speaking and what he's saying there is because of what he's saying there is because of what he's saying there is because of your sin you Adam who I've put in in your sin you Adam who I've put in in your sin you Adam who I've put in in charge of the created order as my vice charge of the created order as my vice charge of the created order as my vice regent because of your sin now it regent because of your sin now it regent because of your sin now it it is paid forward and it has corrupted it is paid forward and it has corrupted it is paid forward and it has corrupted the the creation. So the the earthquakes the the creation. So the the earthquakes the the creation. So the the earthquakes and the the the fallenness of this world and the the the fallenness of this world and the the the fallenness of this world is a product of the fallenness of man. is a product of the fallenness of man. is a product of the fallenness of man. So when you read in Romans 8, it talks So when you read in Romans 8, it talks So when you read in Romans 8, it talks about the creation groans and the way about the creation groans and the way about the creation groans and the way the creation groans because you know the creation groans because you know the creation groans because you know scripture tends to personify, you know, scripture tends to personify, you know, scripture tends to personify, you know, the birds and the the mountains and all the birds and the the mountains and all the birds and the the mountains and all and it says the creation groans, right?

and it says the creation groans, right? and it says the creation groans, right? Yeah. Of course. uh in Psalm 19 you know Yeah. Of course. uh in Psalm 19 you know Yeah. Of course. uh in Psalm 19 you know all of creation sings of God's glory but all of creation sings of God's glory but all of creation sings of God's glory but the creation groans but in the same way the creation groans but in the same way the creation groans but in the same way it is it the the redemption of creation it is it the the redemption of creation it is it the the redemption of creation is going to be tied to the redemption of is going to be tied to the redemption of is going to be tied to the redemption of man and the redemption of humanity. So man and the redemption of humanity. So man and the redemption of humanity. So as we are are have been recreated and as we are are have been recreated and as we are are have been recreated and are living out that recreation and one are living out that recreation and one are living out that recreation and one day we'll stand in the full realities of day we'll stand in the full realities of day we'll stand in the full realities of our recreation so will the world. It is our recreation so will the world. It is our recreation so will the world. It is tied to when Jesus came to redeem all tied to when Jesus came to redeem all tied to when Jesus came to redeem all things. He wasn't just talking about things. He wasn't just talking about things. He wasn't just talking about people. All things, the cedars, as you people. All things, the cedars, as you people. All things, the cedars, as you just said, and the trees and the rivers just said, and the trees and the rivers just said, and the trees and the rivers and the the And I can't wait for that and the the And I can't wait for that and the the And I can't wait for that day. I agree with that. But on the way day. I agree with that. But on the way day. I agree with that. But on the way to that day, we I think I know cuz I to that day, we I think I know cuz I to that day, we I think I know cuz I experienced this this morning. So, I experienced this this morning. So, I experienced this this morning. So, I watch the sun come up. You can get watch the sun come up. You can get watch the sun come up. You can get flashes of it. flashes of it. flashes of it. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> That's right. >> All around us. >> All around us. >> All around us. >> And it's our it's it's and we can we can >> And it's our it's it's and we can we can >> And it's our it's it's and we can we can participate in that. That's, you know, participate in that. That's, you know, participate in that. That's, you know, behold, the kingdom of God is at hand. behold, the kingdom of God is at hand. behold, the kingdom of God is at hand. What is what is Jesus doing in those What is what is Jesus doing in those What is what is Jesus doing in those moments when in in the New Testament moments when in in the New Testament moments when in in the New Testament when he we talked about this last night when he we talked about this last night when he we talked about this last night when Jesus is every time you see Jesus when Jesus is every time you see Jesus when Jesus is every time you see Jesus doing a miracle? Like what is Jesus doing a miracle? Like what is Jesus doing a miracle? Like what is Jesus doing in that moment? Is he just doing a doing in that moment? Is he just doing a doing in that moment? Is he just doing a trick? Is he trying to to sort of flex trick? Is he trying to to sort of flex trick? Is he trying to to sort of flex his like God muscle and show him like his like God muscle and show him like his like God muscle and show him like this is what I'm capable of? Is this a this is what I'm capable of? Is this a this is what I'm capable of? Is this a proof? I mean, there's some of that proof? I mean, there's some of that proof? I mean, there's some of that where he's like pulling back the curtain where he's like pulling back the curtain where he's like pulling back the curtain and revealing his divinity and and who and revealing his divinity and and who and revealing his divinity and and who he is and where people sit back and he he is and where people sit back and he he is and where people sit back and he stills the wind in the waves and people stills the wind in the waves and people stills the wind in the waves and people aren't aren't just quit asking like who

aren't aren't just quit asking like who aren't aren't just quit asking like who are you? They're now asking like what are you? They're now asking like what are you? They're now asking like what are you? are you? are you? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. But when Jesus, one of the things >> Right. But when Jesus, one of the things >> Right. But when Jesus, one of the things that he's doing in those moments where that he's doing in those moments where that he's doing in those moments where he is, you know, he heals the heals the, he is, you know, he heals the heals the, he is, you know, he heals the heals the, you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman or you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman or you know, uh, the hemorrhaging woman or he take raises Gyrus's daughter from the he take raises Gyrus's daughter from the he take raises Gyrus's daughter from the dead or he calls Lazarus out of the dead or he calls Lazarus out of the dead or he calls Lazarus out of the tomb. What he's doing is he is reaching tomb. What he's doing is he is reaching tomb. What he's doing is he is reaching forward and he's grabbing the realities forward and he's grabbing the realities forward and he's grabbing the realities of the new heavens and the new earth of the new heavens and the new earth of the new heavens and the new earth that we will one day live in the full that we will one day live in the full that we will one day live in the full experience and he's planting them in the experience and he's planting them in the experience and he's planting them in the moment and he's giving people a moment and he's giving people a moment and he's giving people a foretaste of like this is what the foretaste of like this is what the foretaste of like this is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the kingdom of God is. This is what the king. So you know the the the journey of king. So you know the the the journey of king. So you know the the the journey of redemption and recreation for uh is not redemption and recreation for uh is not redemption and recreation for uh is not about how do we get man out of earth about how do we get man out of earth about how do we get man out of earth into heaven. The journey the ultimate into heaven. The journey the ultimate into heaven. The journey the ultimate consummation is how do we get heaven and consummation is how do we get heaven and consummation is how do we get heaven and earth back together. And that's and earth back together. And that's and earth back together. And that's and those miracles that we begin to see is those miracles that we begin to see is those miracles that we begin to see is the miracles we were just talking about the miracles we were just talking about the miracles we were just talking about are is Jesus doing that very thing. And are is Jesus doing that very thing. And are is Jesus doing that very thing. And to your point where you say I stand out to your point where you say I stand out to your point where you say I stand out there and I see pops of this. We now get there and I see pops of this. We now get there and I see pops of this. We now get to participate in that. So, we get to to participate in that. So, we get to to participate in that. So, we get to bring the realities of the new heavens bring the realities of the new heavens bring the realities of the new heavens and the new earth. How does that look?

and the new earth. How does that look? and the new earth. How does that look? Well, here's a new when when we bring Well, here's a new when when we bring Well, here's a new when when we bring when we bring when we bring when we bring comfort to someone who is lost in grief. comfort to someone who is lost in grief. comfort to someone who is lost in grief. When I sit with a couple who is When I sit with a couple who is When I sit with a couple who is shattered by adultery or their marriage shattered by adultery or their marriage shattered by adultery or their marriage is in or someone is on their deathbed is in or someone is on their deathbed is in or someone is on their deathbed and they are scared and they feel alone and they are scared and they feel alone and they are scared and they feel alone and you sit and you pray with them and and you sit and you pray with them and and you sit and you pray with them and you're bringing those realities to bear. you're bringing those realities to bear. you're bringing those realities to bear. When you feed the hungry, when you love When you feed the hungry, when you love When you feed the hungry, when you love the the very difficult to love, you the the very difficult to love, you the the very difficult to love, you know, that's our call. When you plant a know, that's our call. When you plant a know, that's our call. When you plant a garden, right? I know these are kind of garden, right? I know these are kind of garden, right? I know these are kind of oh come on no really when you plant in a oh come on no really when you plant in a oh come on no really when you plant in a garden like what are you doing that's garden like what are you doing that's garden like what are you doing that's that's an ancient call I mean that's that's an ancient call I mean that's that's an ancient call I mean that's what Adam did you know that's what Noah what Adam did you know that's what Noah what Adam did you know that's what Noah did you know he was a v he was a you did you know he was a v he was a you did you know he was a v he was a you know he he was a a farmer he grew grapes know he he was a a farmer he grew grapes know he he was a a farmer he grew grapes you know this is but we are you know this is but we are you know this is but we are participating in in the in participating in in the in participating in in the in >> anyone who doubts that anyone who would >> anyone who doubts that anyone who would >> anyone who doubts that anyone who would mock the idea of garden planting as a mock the idea of garden planting as a mock the idea of garden planting as a profound act is just not hasn't lived profound act is just not hasn't lived profound act is just not hasn't lived long enough long enough long enough >> yeah I'm I'm not very good at that I'm I >> yeah I'm I'm not very good at that I'm I >> yeah I'm I'm not very good at that I'm I watered my wife's garden the other night watered my wife's garden the other night watered my wife's garden the other night she had to go and she's like, "Will you she had to go and she's like, "Will you she had to go and she's like, "Will you water my garden?" Took me like 40 water my garden?" Took me like 40 water my garden?" Took me like 40 minutes, by the way. But by the end, I minutes, by the way. But by the end, I minutes, by the way. But by the end, I was like, "Man, that was like amazing.

was like, "Man, that was like amazing. was like, "Man, that was like amazing. That was amazing. All I did was That was amazing. All I did was That was amazing. All I did was hilarising hilarising hilarising my dominion with a hose. I'm with you, my dominion with a hose. I'm with you, my dominion with a hose. I'm with you, man." man." man." Um, Um, Um, so the gender the question of whether so the gender the question of whether so the gender the question of whether God created male and female. God created male and female. God created male and female. >> This is not some minor question. >> This is not some minor question. >> This is not some minor question. >> No. >> No. >> No. >> And liberating people from the >> And liberating people from the >> And liberating people from the constraints of gender is probably not constraints of gender is probably not constraints of gender is probably not actually liberation. Is that what you're actually liberation. Is that what you're actually liberation. Is that what you're saying? saying? saying? >> No. It's I think it's it's a it's a >> No. It's I think it's it's a it's a >> No. It's I think it's it's a it's a confusion. And it's sad, you know, and I confusion. And it's sad, you know, and I confusion. And it's sad, you know, and I in fairness, let me let me uh take it in fairness, let me let me uh take it in fairness, let me let me uh take it from a non political kind of lens of it from a non political kind of lens of it from a non political kind of lens of it cuz it's like I know that's a a cultural cuz it's like I know that's a a cultural cuz it's like I know that's a a cultural move, but just take it down to a you move, but just take it down to a you move, but just take it down to a you know, there are people that and I have a know, there are people that and I have a know, there are people that and I have a deep heart for that. People that have deep heart for that. People that have deep heart for that. People that have profound confusion in that place profound confusion in that place profound confusion in that place >> for sure >> for sure >> for sure >> and and brokenness in that place and >> and and brokenness in that place and >> and and brokenness in that place and that feel very lost in that place and that feel very lost in that place and that feel very lost in that place and feel very and the way Christians talk feel very and the way Christians talk feel very and the way Christians talk about it in a sort of argumentative way, about it in a sort of argumentative way, about it in a sort of argumentative way, right? right? right? >> You know, like, oh, you're right. We're >> You know, like, oh, you're right. We're >> You know, like, oh, you're right. We're wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you wrong. I'm like, dude, that's that, you know, we can fight a sort of air war, a know, we can fight a sort of air war, a know, we can fight a sort of air war, a theological war, and have these kind of theological war, and have these kind of theological war, and have these kind of debates, but at the end of the day, you debates, but at the end of the day, you debates, but at the end of the day, you got to remember like we're talking about got to remember like we're talking about got to remember like we're talking about people here, people here, people here, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> Right. And there are legit people that >> Right. And there are legit people that >> Right. And there are legit people that are hurting and are asking real are hurting and are asking real are hurting and are asking real questions in this place that have questions in this place that have questions in this place that have >> a lot of them, like not a small number. >> a lot of them, like not a small number. >> a lot of them, like not a small number. >> That's right. And and I think one of the >> That's right. And and I think one of the >> That's right. And and I think one of the disservices in the church that we can do disservices in the church that we can do disservices in the church that we can do is because we get so consumed in the is because we get so consumed in the is because we get so consumed in the theological debate that you know we we theological debate that you know we we theological debate that you know we we lose the trees lose the trees lose the trees and and see the forest right and when and and see the forest right and when and and see the forest right and when you look at the trees these are people you look at the trees these are people you look at the trees these are people question what would you say to someone question what would you say to someone question what would you say to someone who was in your care just another human who was in your care just another human who was in your care just another human being your neighbor as defined by the being your neighbor as defined by the being your neighbor as defined by the New Testament who was questioning his or New Testament who was questioning his or New Testament who was questioning his or her gender. What would you say to that her gender. What would you say to that her gender. What would you say to that person? person? person? Presumably, you don't want that person Presumably, you don't want that person Presumably, you don't want that person to have to question and you don't want to have to question and you don't want to have to question and you don't want the person to, you know, take the next the person to, you know, take the next the person to, you know, take the next steps, but you love that person. So, steps, but you love that person. So, steps, but you love that person. So, you're probably not screaming at the you're probably not screaming at the you're probably not screaming at the person. So, what do you say? person. So, what do you say? person. So, what do you say? Well, I'd tell you the first thing I Well, I'd tell you the first thing I Well, I'd tell you the first thing I would say is um well, the first thing would say is um well, the first thing would say is um well, the first thing that I I would walk with a profound that I I would walk with a profound that I I would walk with a profound humility humility humility because I know that I'm stepping into a because I know that I'm stepping into a because I know that I'm stepping into a story that has uh that involves a story that has uh that involves a story that has uh that involves a tremendous tremendous tremendous amount of shame and a sense of isolation amount of shame and a sense of isolation amount of shame and a sense of isolation because this is something this person because this is something this person because this is something this person undoubtedly undoubtedly undoubtedly had been contending with far longer at a had been contending with far longer at a had been contending with far longer at a far younger age than far younger age than far younger age than >> in solitude

>> in solitude >> in solitude >> in solitude which is heartbreaking to >> in solitude which is heartbreaking to >> in solitude which is heartbreaking to think of a child asking theological think of a child asking theological think of a child asking theological questions for which they shouldn't be questions for which they shouldn't be questions for which they shouldn't be asked have to contend with like am I asked have to contend with like am I asked have to contend with like am I going to hell am I this am I like that's going to hell am I this am I like that's going to hell am I this am I like that's that's like I I could I weep thinking that's like I I could I weep thinking that's like I I could I weep thinking about that and so my heart posture in about that and so my heart posture in about that and so my heart posture in that is one of deep and profound that is one of deep and profound that is one of deep and profound compassion because they didn't they didn't ask for because they didn't they didn't ask for that. that. that. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And it is and for those that sit on the >> And it is and for those that sit on the >> And it is and for those that sit on the opposite side of a theological fence to opposite side of a theological fence to opposite side of a theological fence to just come at this with hammer and tongs just come at this with hammer and tongs just come at this with hammer and tongs like you might win an argument but bro like you might win an argument but bro like you might win an argument but bro you are shattering people and you are you are shattering people and you are you are shattering people and you are winning no hearts in that place. That's winning no hearts in that place. That's winning no hearts in that place. That's right. It is the it is the God's right. It is the it is the God's right. It is the it is the God's it is God's kindness that leads to it is God's kindness that leads to it is God's kindness that leads to repentance. And we would, excuse me, we repentance. And we would, excuse me, we repentance. And we would, excuse me, we would be wise would be wise would be wise to remember his kindness to us before we to remember his kindness to us before we to remember his kindness to us before we ever step into a conversation like that.

ever step into a conversation like that. ever step into a conversation like that. So, what would I say? So, what would I say? So, what would I say? >> And by his kindness to us, you mean >> And by his kindness to us, you mean >> And by his kindness to us, you mean they're no better than than me? they're no better than than me? they're no better than than me? >> Exactly. I mean, I'm no better than >> Exactly. I mean, I'm no better than >> Exactly. I mean, I'm no better than them. them. them. >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> That's exactly right. >> Hey, what what lottery did I know I'm >> Hey, what what lottery did I know I'm >> Hey, what what lottery did I know I'm saying? Like, do I know what you're saying? Like, do I know what you're saying? Like, do I know what you're saying? We were talking last night. saying? We were talking last night. saying? We were talking last night. Wait, we single this issue off, dude. Wait, we single this issue off, dude. Wait, we single this issue off, dude. And it's like like okay but I will like And it's like like okay but I will like And it's like like okay but I will like somehow wink at greed or somebody's somehow wink at greed or somebody's somehow wink at greed or somebody's right or or my own you know right or or my own you know right or or my own you know >> or blood lust >> or blood lust >> or blood lust >> or blood lust or whatever it is and we >> or blood lust or whatever it is and we >> or blood lust or whatever it is and we can wink at all these things but like can wink at all these things but like can wink at all these things but like all those things keep me out of like I I all those things keep me out of like I I all those things keep me out of like I I deserve I deserve hell for all those deserve I deserve hell for all those deserve I deserve hell for all those things things things >> right no I get it >> right no I get it >> right no I get it >> is but for the grace of God period and >> is but for the grace of God period and >> is but for the grace of God period and we talk about the things that God saved we talk about the things that God saved we talk about the things that God saved us from that we don't like and the us from that we don't like and the us from that we don't like and the malleability like why aren't you dealing malleability like why aren't you dealing malleability like why aren't you dealing with that why am I not deal like I don't with that why am I not deal like I don't with that why am I not deal like I don't And I'm not. And I'm thankful I'm not. And I'm not. And I'm thankful I'm not. And I'm not. And I'm thankful I'm not. But it's so how do you So how do you But it's so how do you So how do you But it's so how do you So how do you walk into it? walk into it? walk into it? >> What do you say? You don't say anything >> What do you say? You don't say anything >> What do you say? You don't say anything first. You listen, man. first. You listen, man. first. You listen, man. >> But and you earn the right to be heard.

>> But and you earn the right to be heard. >> But and you earn the right to be heard. You earn the right to be heard. You you You earn the right to be heard. You you You earn the right to be heard. You you you sew seeds, dude. And you listen. And you sew seeds, dude. And you listen. And you sew seeds, dude. And you listen. And the way you sew seeds is you the way you sew seeds is you the way you sew seeds is you nonjudgmentally nonjudgmentally nonjudgmentally listen and you invite forward. listen and you invite forward. listen and you invite forward. Who are you, man? Because that doesn't Who are you, man? Because that doesn't Who are you, man? Because that doesn't define you. and and you and you become a define you. and and you and you become a define you. and and you and you become a a safe place and a trustworthy place, a safe place and a trustworthy place, a safe place and a trustworthy place, not with an agenda so you can eventually not with an agenda so you can eventually not with an agenda so you can eventually pull this judo move to show them how pull this judo move to show them how pull this judo move to show them how they're wrong because this is not your they're wrong because this is not your they're wrong because this is not your job, right? It's God's job to to move job, right? It's God's job to to move job, right? It's God's job to to move someone's heart. It's God's job. Like someone's heart. It's God's job. Like someone's heart. It's God's job. Like when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he when Jesus ate with sinners, what did he do? Do you think he sat around and got do? Do you think he sat around and got do? Do you think he sat around and got because he just sat around and he ate because he just sat around and he ate because he just sat around and he ate with the tax collectors and the with the tax collectors and the with the tax collectors and the drunkards and the prostitutes? Did he drunkards and the prostitutes? Did he drunkards and the prostitutes? Did he sit there and the conversation was him sit there and the conversation was him sit there and the conversation was him going around the room telling them where going around the room telling them where going around the room telling them where they were wrong and he was right? they were wrong and he was right? they were wrong and he was right? Like, no, that would be a very short Like, no, that would be a very short Like, no, that would be a very short hang, right? That's not a good party. hang, right? That's not a good party. hang, right? That's not a good party. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> But no, it's cuz they liked him. >> But no, it's cuz they liked him. >> But no, it's cuz they liked him. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And why did they like him? Cuz he >> And why did they like him? Cuz he >> And why did they like him? Cuz he probably listened really well and he probably listened really well and he probably listened really well and he probably sat with him and he earned the probably sat with him and he earned the probably sat with him and he earned the right to be heard. And as a prof, that right to be heard. And as a prof, that right to be heard. And as a prof, that is a a a is a a a is a a a wonderful wonderful wonderful philosophy of ministry as you step into philosophy of ministry as you step into philosophy of ministry as you step into places like this with the broken and the places like this with the broken and the places like this with the broken and the bruised and the the the the bruised bruised and the the the the bruised bruised and the the the the bruised reads and the smoldering wicks as reads and the smoldering wicks as reads and the smoldering wicks as scripture says and and you listen and scripture says and and you listen and scripture says and and you listen and you and you and you and you and you and you and and hopefully they come out of the and hopefully they come out of the and hopefully they come out of the shadows and begin to talk about the shadows and begin to talk about the shadows and begin to talk about the struggle and you and you honor it and struggle and you and you honor it and struggle and you and you honor it and you love them and you let you know you you love them and you let you know you you love them and you let you know you let the Lord steer it like if I I would

let the Lord steer it like if I I would let the Lord steer it like if I I would be doing a disservice. What do you say? be doing a disservice. What do you say? be doing a disservice. What do you say? Like I don't know. It depends how who Like I don't know. It depends how who Like I don't know. It depends how who I'm talking to and whatever. But I know I'm talking to and whatever. But I know I'm talking to and whatever. But I know what I I know what I wouldn't say and I what I I know what I wouldn't say and I what I I know what I wouldn't say and I know what I wouldn't do and I wouldn't know what I wouldn't do and I wouldn't know what I wouldn't do and I wouldn't lead off with a with a a moral lecture lead off with a with a a moral lecture lead off with a with a a moral lecture on what because they they know they've on what because they they know they've on what because they they know they've contended with those arguments. They contended with those arguments. They contended with those arguments. They could probably shape those arguments could probably shape those arguments could probably shape those arguments better than I ever could because they've better than I ever could because they've better than I ever could because they've dealt with them far longer and in far dealt with them far longer and in far dealt with them far longer and in far more personal ways. So yeah, I love them more personal ways. So yeah, I love them more personal ways. So yeah, I love them well. and and then uh you know I think well. and and then uh you know I think well. and and then uh you know I think again again again what does it mean to to to do the work what does it mean to to to do the work what does it mean to to to do the work of God in places like that it's the same of God in places like that it's the same of God in places like that it's the same thing in anywhere else bunch of years thing in anywhere else bunch of years thing in anywhere else bunch of years ago someone asked me this question I was ago someone asked me this question I was ago someone asked me this question I was working with a doing some chapency work working with a doing some chapency work working with a doing some chapency work with the soccer team and he was joking with the soccer team and he was joking with the soccer team and he was joking me about what is it like to do the me about what is it like to do the me about what is it like to do the Lord's work and I kind of like I thought Lord's work and I kind of like I thought Lord's work and I kind of like I thought it was a kind of a weird question and I it was a kind of a weird question and I it was a kind of a weird question and I thought to myself for a minute I was thought to myself for a minute I was thought to myself for a minute I was like you know what man like you know what man like you know what man I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord I'm not doing the Lord's work. The Lord is doing the Lord's work. My job as a as is doing the Lord's work. My job as a as is doing the Lord's work. My job as a as a as a priest, as a pastor, as a a as a priest, as a pastor, as a a as a priest, as a pastor, as a Christian, as a man, is to is to Christian, as a man, is to is to Christian, as a man, is to is to cultivate a heart that knows what it cultivate a heart that knows what it cultivate a heart that knows what it means to listen to the Holy Spirit and means to listen to the Holy Spirit and means to listen to the Holy Spirit and to see where the Holy Spirit is moving to see where the Holy Spirit is moving to see where the Holy Spirit is moving and just agree with it.

and just agree with it. and just agree with it. And just agree with it, right? How do we And just agree with it, right? How do we And just agree with it, right? How do we learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn that? How do we cultivate that? We learn it through reading the word. We learn it through reading the word. We learn it through reading the word. We learn it through prayer. We learn it learn it through prayer. We learn it learn it through prayer. We learn it through worship. We learn it through through worship. We learn it through through worship. We learn it through doing these conversations. We learn it doing these conversations. We learn it doing these conversations. We learn it through our relationships with other men through our relationships with other men through our relationships with other men or women in our marriages. or women in our marriages. or women in our marriages. But we tune our hearts as the as the But we tune our hearts as the as the But we tune our hearts as the as the hymn says, we Lord, tune my heart to hymn says, we Lord, tune my heart to hymn says, we Lord, tune my heart to your grace so I know I can see it when your grace so I know I can see it when your grace so I know I can see it when you're doing it. And I can just agree you're doing it. And I can just agree you're doing it. And I can just agree with it. And and the doors you open with it. And and the doors you open with it. And and the doors you open cannot be shut. The doors you closed cannot be shut. The doors you closed cannot be shut. The doors you closed can't be open. Just help me not beat my can't be open. Just help me not beat my can't be open. Just help me not beat my head against those doors that won't head against those doors that won't head against those doors that won't open. open. open. And and when I'm dealing with a human And and when I'm dealing with a human And and when I'm dealing with a human heart, it's the same question. How do I heart, it's the same question. How do I heart, it's the same question. How do I what what doors are you opening there? what what doors are you opening there? what what doors are you opening there? And how do I talk to them in a way that And how do I talk to them in a way that And how do I talk to them in a way that they need to hear this? Not the way that they need to hear this? Not the way that they need to hear this? Not the way that I can be right. I can be right. I can be right. >> Yeah. People have an overwhelming need >> Yeah. People have an overwhelming need >> Yeah. People have an overwhelming need to be right or desire to be right. to be right or desire to be right. to be right or desire to be right. >> I do. It's hard, man. >> I do. It's hard, man. >> I do. It's hard, man. >> I don't. But I I >> I don't. But I I >> I don't. But I I >> No, I know you do. >> No, I know you do. >> No, I know you do. >> I look at you with with pity and >> I look at you with with pity and >> I look at you with with pity and concern. Yeah. You imagine you need to concern. Yeah. You imagine you need to concern. Yeah. You imagine you need to be right. Need to prove your point. Um, be right. Need to prove your point. Um, be right. Need to prove your point. Um, well, that was a beautiful uh well, that was a beautiful uh well, that was a beautiful uh description of how to actually love description of how to actually love description of how to actually love somebody rather than I mean because I somebody rather than I mean because I somebody rather than I mean because I know where you're coming from, which is know where you're coming from, which is know where you're coming from, which is you want to see people genuinely you want to see people genuinely you want to see people genuinely liberated and not led into their liberated and not led into their liberated and not led into their destruction destruction destruction by any any of these things, you know, by any any of these things, you know, by any any of these things, you know, and uh but you're we're all fighting and uh but you're we're all fighting and uh but you're we're all fighting against our desire to be right. Really, against our desire to be right. Really, against our desire to be right. Really, is what it comes down to.

is what it comes down to. is what it comes down to. >> Oh, >> Oh, >> Oh, >> yeah. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> That's Yeah, 100%. Can can I say one >> That's Yeah, 100%. Can can I say one >> That's Yeah, 100%. Can can I say one thing though that I can't can't resist. thing though that I can't can't resist. thing though that I can't can't resist. Um so Jesus there's this moment where he Um so Jesus there's this moment where he Um so Jesus there's this moment where he says you know woe to anyone who leads says you know woe to anyone who leads says you know woe to anyone who leads the the the children astray. the the the children astray. the the the children astray. >> And you do feel like when you're looking >> And you do feel like when you're looking >> And you do feel like when you're looking at people who are beset by any of these at people who are beset by any of these at people who are beset by any of these agonies agonies agonies with comp I mean if you're you know with comp I mean if you're you know with comp I mean if you're you know you look at them with compassion you look at them with compassion you look at them with compassion but then you think like someone lied to but then you think like someone lied to but then you think like someone lied to them and got them here in the first them and got them here in the first them and got them here in the first place and I feel less compassion for place and I feel less compassion for place and I feel less compassion for that person. I'm just going to say that that person. I'm just going to say that that person. I'm just going to say that >> there's a lot of voices, man, and I >> there's a lot of voices, man, and I >> there's a lot of voices, man, and I would there's a lot of people that will would there's a lot of people that will would there's a lot of people that will vehemently disagree with me, and that's vehemently disagree with me, and that's vehemently disagree with me, and that's okay. okay. okay. But, uh, I would just say that as people But, uh, I would just say that as people But, uh, I would just say that as people ask those questions about their own life ask those questions about their own life ask those questions about their own life and they're going through, like you, you and they're going through, like you, you and they're going through, like you, you can easily find someone to affirm the can easily find someone to affirm the can easily find someone to affirm the path that you're going down to. path that you're going down to. path that you're going down to. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Oh, yeah. >> Right. I mean, there's so many different >> Right. I mean, there's so many different >> Right. I mean, there's so many different flavors and denominations and flavors and denominations and flavors and denominations and expressions of that. Like, you want expressions of that. Like, you want expressions of that. Like, you want someone to prop up your lifestyle and someone to prop up your lifestyle and someone to prop up your lifestyle and give you theological and biblical give you theological and biblical give you theological and biblical justification. Like, you don't have to justification. Like, you don't have to justification. Like, you don't have to scratch scratch very deep to find scratch scratch very deep to find scratch scratch very deep to find someone to do that.

someone to do that. someone to do that. But that's why I think it's so important But that's why I think it's so important But that's why I think it's so important that that we that's why I'm, like I that that we that's why I'm, like I that that we that's why I'm, like I said, I'm a Bible nerd and I think it's said, I'm a Bible nerd and I think it's said, I'm a Bible nerd and I think it's so important that that that it's it's so important that that that it's it's so important that that that it's it's scripture alone, man. We have to we have scripture alone, man. We have to we have scripture alone, man. We have to we have to go, you know, we have to go to to go, you know, we have to go to to go, you know, we have to go to scripture and test it everything against scripture and test it everything against scripture and test it everything against measure everything against what we're measure everything against what we're measure everything against what we're hearing in the world. What you're hearing in the world. What you're hearing in the world. What you're hearing from me, what you hear from, you hearing from me, what you hear from, you hearing from me, what you hear from, you know, the church and leaderships like know, the church and leaderships like know, the church and leaderships like I'm not I'm not scripture, right? I'm I'm not I'm not scripture, right? I'm I'm not I'm not scripture, right? I'm not like what's right, what's wrong, who not like what's right, what's wrong, who not like what's right, what's wrong, who gets to answer that question? Who gets gets to answer that question? Who gets gets to answer that question? Who gets gets to be the one to answer that gets to be the one to answer that gets to be the one to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? Do I get to answer that question? No. Does God gets to answer question? No. Does God gets to answer question? No. Does God gets to answer that question? Okay. So that's we can that question? Okay. So that's we can that question? Okay. So that's we can all agree most people will stack hands. all agree most people will stack hands. all agree most people will stack hands. God's the one that gets to answer that God's the one that gets to answer that God's the one that gets to answer that question. Okay. How does God answer that question. Okay. How does God answer that question. Okay. How does God answer that question? Does he answer it through me? question? Does he answer it through me? question? Does he answer it through me? He answers it through his word, right? He answers it through his word, right? He answers it through his word, right? He answers it through that. That's is He answers it through that. That's is He answers it through that. That's is how God has taken a knee and he has it how God has taken a knee and he has it how God has taken a knee and he has it written this redemptive historical written this redemptive historical written this redemptive historical sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to sort of incredibly rich dynamic gift to us that's called the Bible.

us that's called the Bible. us that's called the Bible. And if if we are people that want to And if if we are people that want to And if if we are people that want to understand what it means to to ask these understand what it means to to ask these understand what it means to to ask these questions to move in these directions questions to move in these directions questions to move in these directions and to do it with any any truth and and to do it with any any truth and and to do it with any any truth and integrity integrity integrity we have to measure what we're hearing we have to measure what we're hearing we have to measure what we're hearing against this you know it's you know be against this you know it's you know be against this you know it's you know be transformed by the renewing of your mind transformed by the renewing of your mind transformed by the renewing of your mind through the scriptures it says in Romans through the scriptures it says in Romans through the scriptures it says in Romans and so we can test and God's good and and so we can test and God's good and and so we can test and God's good and perfect will test it is this God perfect will test it is this God perfect will test it is this God speaking to me or is this some you know speaking to me or is this some you know speaking to me or is this some you know new fang angled cultural moment that's new fang angled cultural moment that's new fang angled cultural moment that's just trying to like you know v for air just trying to like you know v for air just trying to like you know v for air dominance right now or whatever you know dominance right now or whatever you know dominance right now or whatever you know you know what I'm saying yeah so you know what I'm saying yeah so you know what I'm saying yeah so addiction addiction addiction has been a feature of well it's has been a feature of well it's has been a feature of well it's described in the Bible so it's you know described in the Bible so it's you know described in the Bible so it's you know it's been around since people have been it's been around since people have been it's been around since people have been around I think but it does seem like a around I think but it does seem like a around I think but it does seem like a bigger factor in the lives of Americans bigger factor in the lives of Americans bigger factor in the lives of Americans than 40 years ago I mean I know that it than 40 years ago I mean I know that it than 40 years ago I mean I know that it is because there just a lot more ways to is because there just a lot more ways to is because there just a lot more ways to get addicted and there's less cultural get addicted and there's less cultural get addicted and there's less cultural resistance to addiction than there's resistance to addiction than there's resistance to addiction than there's ever been. And so like entire ever been. And so like entire ever been. And so like entire generations are getting destroyed by it.

generations are getting destroyed by it. generations are getting destroyed by it. >> There's more things to or more obvious >> There's more things to or more obvious >> There's more things to or more obvious things to be addicted to that aren't things to be addicted to that aren't things to be addicted to that aren't just substances. just substances. just substances. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Exactly. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> So how big a presence is addiction in >> So how big a presence is addiction in >> So how big a presence is addiction in your experience of counseling? your experience of counseling? your experience of counseling? I mean it's it's just part of it you I mean it's it's just part of it you I mean it's it's just part of it you know and uh it's a you know doing what I know and uh it's a you know doing what I know and uh it's a you know doing what I do obviously you encounter you know when do obviously you encounter you know when do obviously you encounter you know when people come into my office and they people come into my office and they people come into my office and they knock on my door very rarely it is like knock on my door very rarely it is like knock on my door very rarely it is like hey I have a question why in the book of hey I have a question why in the book of hey I have a question why in the book of numbers did so and so you know why did numbers did so and so you know why did numbers did so and so you know why did Moses hold up a golden you know serpent Moses hold up a golden you know serpent Moses hold up a golden you know serpent or whatever it's rarely questions like or whatever it's rarely questions like or whatever it's rarely questions like that it's more like are you psyched what that it's more like are you psyched what that it's more like are you psyched what it is though yeah actually that's a lot it is though yeah actually that's a lot it is though yeah actually that's a lot easier right it's a lot easier here cuz easier right it's a lot easier here cuz easier right it's a lot easier here cuz uh but it's people are coming in with uh but it's people are coming in with uh but it's people are coming in with it, you know, they can't keep their it, you know, they can't keep their it, you know, they can't keep their cheese on their cracker, man. And cheese on their cracker, man. And cheese on their cracker, man. And they're saying, "Hey, I'm addicted to they're saying, "Hey, I'm addicted to they're saying, "Hey, I'm addicted to this or my marriage is coming apart." this or my marriage is coming apart." this or my marriage is coming apart." And um so addiction is it's a it's a you And um so addiction is it's a it's a you And um so addiction is it's a it's a you know, again, you've got substance abuse, know, again, you've got substance abuse, know, again, you've got substance abuse, you got alcoholics, you've got people you got alcoholics, you've got people you got alcoholics, you've got people that, you know, opioids now, which is that, you know, opioids now, which is that, you know, opioids now, which is insane. You've got these things, you insane. You've got these things, you insane. You've got these things, you know, the the list is endless. Gambling, know, the the list is endless. Gambling, know, the the list is endless. Gambling, pornography, gambling, pornography, pornography, gambling, pornography, pornography, gambling, pornography, gambling is huge. That is God that gambling is huge. That is God that gambling is huge. That is God that scares me because of just the online scares me because of just the online scares me because of just the online stuff.

stuff. stuff. >> Do you see that? >> Do you see that? >> Do you see that? >> Uh I don't I have seen it. It's not >> Uh I don't I have seen it. It's not >> Uh I don't I have seen it. It's not something that I have faced but I know a something that I have faced but I know a something that I have faced but I know a lot about it. I know a lot of people lot about it. I know a lot of people lot about it. I know a lot of people that have gone that journey and that is that have gone that journey and that is that have gone that journey and that is one of the most nefarious and hard to one of the most nefarious and hard to one of the most nefarious and hard to beat addictions is gambling. And uh but beat addictions is gambling. And uh but beat addictions is gambling. And uh but all that to say uh but to those that all that to say uh but to those that all that to say uh but to those that that contend with addiction, you know, that contend with addiction, you know, that contend with addiction, you know, the one thing that I can say and I can the one thing that I can say and I can the one thing that I can say and I can say this unequivocally is there is so say this unequivocally is there is so say this unequivocally is there is so much hope for people. It's not a path much hope for people. It's not a path much hope for people. It's not a path that you ever want to walk down, but my that you ever want to walk down, but my that you ever want to walk down, but my my favorite people that I deal with are my favorite people that I deal with are my favorite people that I deal with are my friends in AA or my friends in uh you my friends in AA or my friends in uh you my friends in AA or my friends in uh you know that are in NA or that have gone know that are in NA or that have gone know that are in NA or that have gone through recovery that have had you know through recovery that have had you know through recovery that have had you know all their self-righteous pretenses all their self-righteous pretenses all their self-righteous pretenses stripped down that have been brought stripped down that have been brought stripped down that have been brought down to the studs who have you know down to the studs who have you know down to the studs who have you know blown up their lives so they don't have blown up their lives so they don't have blown up their lives so they don't have anything to they don't know anything to anything to they don't know anything to anything to they don't know anything to prove and they've been on this prove and they've been on this prove and they've been on this redemptive jney And I always talk these redemptive jney And I always talk these redemptive jney And I always talk these people. I say, "Would you please come people. I say, "Would you please come people. I say, "Would you please come and join my church? Would you please and join my church? Would you please and join my church? Would you please come and be a part?" I'm like, "We need come and be a part?" I'm like, "We need come and be a part?" I'm like, "We need this." Like, the church needs to be a this." Like, the church needs to be a this." Like, the church needs to be a hospital, not a showcase.

hospital, not a showcase. hospital, not a showcase. >> I've never been to a church as Christian >> I've never been to a church as Christian >> I've never been to a church as Christian as some AE meetings I've been to. as some AE meetings I've been to. as some AE meetings I've been to. >> I I agree with you. And it's, you know, >> I I agree with you. And it's, you know, >> I I agree with you. And it's, you know, church needs to be a place where we can church needs to be a place where we can church needs to be a place where we can get blood on the walls. And you know get blood on the walls. And you know get blood on the walls. And you know what I mean by that? Where we can we can what I mean by that? Where we can we can what I mean by that? Where we can we can tell the truth. You know, church is not tell the truth. You know, church is not tell the truth. You know, church is not designed to be an AA meeting. And AA designed to be an AA meeting. And AA designed to be an AA meeting. And AA meetings are not designed to be church, meetings are not designed to be church, meetings are not designed to be church, but there are aspects of it where but there are aspects of it where but there are aspects of it where >> the humility and the honesty, >> the humility and the honesty, >> the humility and the honesty, >> the humility, the honesty to where >> the humility, the honesty to where >> the humility, the honesty to where people can come in and walk through the people can come in and walk through the people can come in and walk through the doors of a church and say, "This has doors of a church and say, "This has doors of a church and say, "This has this is populated by people that I that this is populated by people that I that this is populated by people that I that I could sit in a room full of men or a I could sit in a room full of men or a I could sit in a room full of men or a room full of women, a room full of room full of women, a room full of room full of women, a room full of couples, and I could have a a human yard couples, and I could have a a human yard couples, and I could have a a human yard sale of what I've done and who I've been sale of what I've done and who I've been sale of what I've done and who I've been in my life, and I would be met with love in my life, and I would be met with love in my life, and I would be met with love and grace and people looking at me and and grace and people looking at me and and grace and people looking at me and saying, "I want to hear more of that." saying, "I want to hear more of that." saying, "I want to hear more of that." That when I show you the most wretched That when I show you the most wretched That when I show you the most wretched parts of me, it doesn't push you away, parts of me, it doesn't push you away, parts of me, it doesn't push you away, but it draws you closer because you're but it draws you closer because you're but it draws you closer because you're able to look me in the eye and say, able to look me in the eye and say, able to look me in the eye and say, "Yeah, I get it, man. Me, too." "Yeah, I get it, man. Me, too." "Yeah, I get it, man. Me, too." >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, and that's that is, you know, >> You know, and that's that is, you know, >> You know, and that's that is, you know, that's it. Because what that does, it that's it. Because what that does, it that's it. Because what that does, it does a lot of you know our biggest most does a lot of you know our biggest most does a lot of you know our biggest most you know with addiction especially you know with addiction especially you know with addiction especially and you know be it pornography, and you know be it pornography, and you know be it pornography, gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you gambling, alcohol, whatever it is, you know, sweets, whatever you're addicted know, sweets, whatever you're addicted know, sweets, whatever you're addicted to, to, to, >> it's I don't think it's fair to put >> it's I don't think it's fair to put >> it's I don't think it's fair to put sweet.

sweet. sweet. >> It might be a little that might be a >> It might be a little that might be a >> It might be a little that might be a little too much, but it's it is a it is little too much, but it's it is a it is little too much, but it's it is a it is it breeds so much shame. it breeds so much shame. it breeds so much shame. >> Yeah, I know, >> Yeah, I know, >> Yeah, I know, >> right? It breeds so much shame. And >> right? It breeds so much shame. And >> right? It breeds so much shame. And that's what sin does. It breeds shame. that's what sin does. It breeds shame. that's what sin does. It breeds shame. You read the story in the garden when You read the story in the garden when You read the story in the garden when Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge Adam eats of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. He runs. What's the of good and evil. He runs. What's the of good and evil. He runs. What's the first thing Adam does is he runs and he first thing Adam does is he runs and he first thing Adam does is he runs and he hides in the bushes. hides in the bushes. hides in the bushes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> He hides. And then God comes and and he >> He hides. And then God comes and and he >> He hides. And then God comes and and he asks a question. He says, "Adam, where asks a question. He says, "Adam, where asks a question. He says, "Adam, where are you? What do you what do you why are are you? What do you what do you why are are you? What do you what do you why are you hiding?" Little pro tip. Anytime God you hiding?" Little pro tip. Anytime God you hiding?" Little pro tip. Anytime God asks a question in scripture, he already asks a question in scripture, he already asks a question in scripture, he already knows the answer. He does. But what he knows the answer. He does. But what he knows the answer. He does. But what he needed Adam to see is he need Adam to needed Adam to see is he need Adam to needed Adam to see is he need Adam to see the answer. And Adam comes out and see the answer. And Adam comes out and see the answer. And Adam comes out and he says what? He says to him, he says, he says what? He says to him, he says, he says what? He says to him, he says, "Why were you hiding?" And all right, "Why were you hiding?" And all right, "Why were you hiding?" And all right, Adam's in the garden. There's one rule Adam's in the garden. There's one rule Adam's in the garden. There's one rule in the garden. Don't eat of this tree of in the garden. Don't eat of this tree of in the garden. Don't eat of this tree of the knowledge of good and evil. And the knowledge of good and evil. And the knowledge of good and evil. And Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and Adam's broken that rule. Sin enters and he hides. And when God asks him, "Why he hides. And when God asks him, "Why he hides. And when God asks him, "Why are you hiding?" The logical answer is, are you hiding?" The logical answer is, are you hiding?" The logical answer is, "I just broke the one rule." That's not "I just broke the one rule." That's not "I just broke the one rule." That's not what he says, though. He says, "I was what he says, though. He says, "I was what he says, though. He says, "I was naked and I was ashamed."

naked and I was ashamed." naked and I was ashamed." And to paraphrase that, he he was And to paraphrase that, he he was And to paraphrase that, he he was saying, "I wasn't hiding because I have saying, "I wasn't hiding because I have saying, "I wasn't hiding because I have done something wrong. I'm hiding because done something wrong. I'm hiding because done something wrong. I'm hiding because I am something wrong. I am something wrong. I am something wrong. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I could not bear for you to see me. >> And I could not bear for you to see me. >> And I could not bear for you to see me. And if you saw me, you would reject me And if you saw me, you would reject me And if you saw me, you would reject me and I would be alone. And that is the and I would be alone. And that is the and I would be alone. And that is the most foundational cry of the human most foundational cry of the human most foundational cry of the human heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on heart, which it was the cry of Jesus on the cross when he became sin. When he the cross when he became sin. When he the cross when he became sin. When he truly became like us and he absorbed the truly became like us and he absorbed the truly became like us and he absorbed the sin of humanity and he quotes the Psalms sin of humanity and he quotes the Psalms sin of humanity and he quotes the Psalms and he says, "My God, my God, the cry of and he says, "My God, my God, the cry of and he says, "My God, my God, the cry of dereliction, why have you forsaken me?" dereliction, why have you forsaken me?" dereliction, why have you forsaken me?" He could have said anything in that He could have said anything in that He could have said anything in that moment, but it was this cry of our moment, but it was this cry of our moment, but it was this cry of our deepest longing. don't leave me like deepest longing. don't leave me like deepest longing. don't leave me like this this shameful thing that I am. So, this this shameful thing that I am. So, this this shameful thing that I am. So, going back to the AA the biggest poison going back to the AA the biggest poison going back to the AA the biggest poison that leads to addiction and it's this that leads to addiction and it's this that leads to addiction and it's this this this shame engine that that drives this this shame engine that that drives this this shame engine that that drives us and I don't want to feel it so I us and I don't want to feel it so I us and I don't want to feel it so I drink and I feel more shame and I so I drink and I feel more shame and I so I drink and I feel more shame and I so I drink more and it just becomes this drink more and it just becomes this drink more and it just becomes this cycle. But when you get into these rooms cycle. But when you get into these rooms cycle. But when you get into these rooms and you're able to have like I just said and you're able to have like I just said and you're able to have like I just said like you have a yard sale and you be like you have a yard sale and you be like you have a yard sale and you be able to say this is what I am. I'm able to say this is what I am. I'm able to say this is what I am. I'm Billy. I'm an alcoholic or I'm Tucker Billy. I'm an alcoholic or I'm Tucker Billy. I'm an alcoholic or I'm Tucker and I'm a this or I'm whatever it is.

and I'm a this or I'm whatever it is. and I'm a this or I'm whatever it is. And you can lay that out in front of a And you can lay that out in front of a And you can lay that out in front of a group of people and they sit there and group of people and they sit there and group of people and they sit there and they don't run away and they don't give they don't run away and they don't give they don't run away and they don't give you the rejection that you think that you the rejection that you think that you the rejection that you think that you deserve that pushed Adam into the you deserve that pushed Adam into the you deserve that pushed Adam into the bushes. It does it it just sweeps the bushes. It does it it just sweeps the bushes. It does it it just sweeps the knee of your shame and all of a sudden knee of your shame and all of a sudden knee of your shame and all of a sudden the thing that that Satan meant for the thing that that Satan meant for the thing that that Satan meant for evil, God means for good. And it the the evil, God means for good. And it the the evil, God means for good. And it the the place of your greatest destruction, your place of your greatest destruction, your place of your greatest destruction, your greatest fears, your greatest self- greatest fears, your greatest self- greatest fears, your greatest self- sabotage becomes the place where life sabotage becomes the place where life sabotage becomes the place where life grows. Like, tell me there's not a grows. Like, tell me there's not a grows. Like, tell me there's not a living God. Tell me there's not a God living God. Tell me there's not a God living God. Tell me there's not a God that that is that is using uh the tools that that is that is using uh the tools that that is that is using uh the tools of the enemy against him, right? That of the enemy against him, right? That of the enemy against him, right? That makes us more than conquerors, right? makes us more than conquerors, right? makes us more than conquerors, right? That's beautiful. And so, That's beautiful. And so, That's beautiful. And so, do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when do I encounter addiction? Yeah. And when I find guys that have been through I find guys that have been through I find guys that have been through recovery, I love them. recovery, I love them. recovery, I love them. >> Me, too. I feel I want more of them. >> Me, too. I feel I want more of them. >> Me, too. I feel I want more of them. >> I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah. >> I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah. >> I feel exactly the same way. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. Yeah. I I couldn't agree more. >> So, you made um I think the most of >> So, you made um I think the most of >> So, you made um I think the most of profound thing you said was the core profound thing you said was the core profound thing you said was the core human fear is don't leave us alone.

human fear is don't leave us alone. human fear is don't leave us alone. >> And that the first thing that God saw >> And that the first thing that God saw >> And that the first thing that God saw that was wrong with creation was Adam's that was wrong with creation was Adam's that was wrong with creation was Adam's solitude. It's not good for man to be solitude. It's not good for man to be solitude. It's not good for man to be alone. alone. alone. It does feel like people are more alone. It does feel like people are more alone. It does feel like people are more alone. No, No, No, >> we're isolated, especially as men. Why >> we're isolated, especially as men. Why >> we're isolated, especially as men. Why as men? Because we Because we are scared to be found out. are scared to be found out. are scared to be found out. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know, men, we live in the same way. You know that that that description I You know that that that description I You know that that that description I just said of Adam, he's like, you know, just said of Adam, he's like, you know, just said of Adam, he's like, you know, there's something that's that's, you there's something that's that's, you there's something that's that's, you know, I'm not something right. It said know, I'm not something right. It said know, I'm not something right. It said Adam on this course that I have to Adam on this course that I have to Adam on this course that I have to become. It's it's on me. I've got to become. It's it's on me. I've got to become. It's it's on me. I've got to become this ruthless quest for become this ruthless quest for become this ruthless quest for validation. And that's the sort of validation. And that's the sort of validation. And that's the sort of spiritual genetic heritage that we've spiritual genetic heritage that we've spiritual genetic heritage that we've all received. I think it's all men. We all received. I think it's all men. We all received. I think it's all men. We were born with this idea of that this I were born with this idea of that this I were born with this idea of that this I I I'm incomplete and I' and it's on me I I'm incomplete and I' and it's on me I I'm incomplete and I' and it's on me to to uh be be enough.

to to uh be be enough. to to uh be be enough. And I'm terrified as a that you know I And I'm terrified as a that you know I And I'm terrified as a that you know I one is but you know as a man I've spent one is but you know as a man I've spent one is but you know as a man I've spent much of my life too much of my early much of my life too much of my early much of my life too much of my early life terrified that people would see life terrified that people would see life terrified that people would see that I don't have it all together. like that I don't have it all together. like that I don't have it all together. like we we all like have two things in we we all like have two things in we we all like have two things in common. One, none of us have it all common. One, none of us have it all common. One, none of us have it all together. And the second is we we all together. And the second is we we all together. And the second is we we all want everyone around us to think we do. want everyone around us to think we do. want everyone around us to think we do. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Of course. >> Right. And the idea and the fear of that >> Right. And the idea and the fear of that >> Right. And the idea and the fear of that is if I let you see that the same fear is if I let you see that the same fear is if I let you see that the same fear that Adam had that you would you would that Adam had that you would you would that Adam had that you would you would see something that you found undesirable see something that you found undesirable see something that you found undesirable and you would abandon me and I would be and you would abandon me and I would be and you would abandon me and I would be left alone. So as men we have become so left alone. So as men we have become so left alone. So as men we have become so artfully artfully artfully skilled at working side by side and you skilled at working side by side and you skilled at working side by side and you doing acts of you know doing acts of you know doing acts of you know uh you know working side by side and you uh you know working side by side and you uh you know working side by side and you know playing golf together and doing all know playing golf together and doing all know playing golf together and doing all these things but just know nothing about these things but just know nothing about these things but just know nothing about each other's lives. I think that's each other's lives. I think that's each other's lives. I think that's right. But if I could just be the right. But if I could just be the right. But if I could just be the liberal for a moment and blame society liberal for a moment and blame society liberal for a moment and blame society also, I think the structures have also, I think the structures have also, I think the structures have completely changed in the world around completely changed in the world around completely changed in the world around us. And I think it is more and more us. And I think it is more and more us. And I think it is more and more difficult for men to find the chance to difficult for men to find the chance to difficult for men to find the chance to be with other men.

be with other men. be with other men. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Just men. I mean, that is to Well, by >> Just men. I mean, that is to Well, by >> Just men. I mean, that is to Well, by the way, it's measurable. And the way, it's measurable. And the way, it's measurable. And >> well, it's an it's an ancient problem. I >> well, it's an it's an ancient problem. I >> well, it's an it's an ancient problem. I think one of the great unspoken miracles think one of the great unspoken miracles think one of the great unspoken miracles in scripture is that Jesus as a man in in scripture is that Jesus as a man in in scripture is that Jesus as a man in his mid30s had 12 best friends. his mid30s had 12 best friends. his mid30s had 12 best friends. Right? Right? Right? Like how many men in their 30s like the Like how many men in their 30s like the Like how many men in their 30s like the last most men I spent a lot of time last most men I spent a lot of time last most men I spent a lot of time ministering with men. I love it. It's ministering with men. I love it. It's ministering with men. I love it. It's one of my favorite things is that one of one of my favorite things is that one of one of my favorite things is that one of the one of the last times that men the one of the last times that men the one of the last times that men remember having real relationships was remember having real relationships was remember having real relationships was back in college. I know the last time back in college. I know the last time back in college. I know the last time and then they step into the workforce. and then they step into the workforce. and then they step into the workforce. They get they get married which is They get they get married which is They get they get married which is wonderful. They have children which is wonderful. They have children which is wonderful. They have children which is wonderful wonderful wonderful but they lose sight of the importance of but they lose sight of the importance of but they lose sight of the importance of male relationship. They lose sight of uh male relationship. They lose sight of uh male relationship. They lose sight of uh they lose sight of the value of why you they lose sight of the value of why you they lose sight of the value of why you need men around you. And this is need men around you. And this is need men around you. And this is something that I mean Jesus something that I mean Jesus something that I mean Jesus demonstrabably demonstrated that in his demonstrabably demonstrated that in his demonstrabably demonstrated that in his 12 discip with his 12 disciples that was 12 discip with his 12 disciples that was 12 discip with his 12 disciples that was uh you know he illustrated a lot of uh you know he illustrated a lot of uh you know he illustrated a lot of things with that but on a most basic things with that but on a most basic things with that but on a most basic level it was just hey we need that. You level it was just hey we need that. You level it was just hey we need that. You read Mark chapter 2, what is the story read Mark chapter 2, what is the story read Mark chapter 2, what is the story where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's where Jesus is in Capernaum and he's there and he's teaching in the house and there and he's teaching in the house and there and he's teaching in the house and it's packed and there's people like it's packed and there's people like it's packed and there's people like hanging in the windows and no one can hanging in the windows and no one can hanging in the windows and no one can get in or out and there these there's a get in or out and there these there's a get in or out and there these there's a man who's been paralyzed and they can't man who's been paralyzed and they can't man who's been paralyzed and they can't they want Jesus to heal him and they they want Jesus to heal him and they they want Jesus to heal him and they can't get to him. So his his friends, can't get to him. So his his friends, can't get to him. So his his friends, his four friends or however many friends his four friends or however many friends his four friends or however many friends it was, they pick up the mat and they it was, they pick up the mat and they it was, they pick up the mat and they they grab the corners of the mat and they grab the corners of the mat and they grab the corners of the mat and they carry their friend and they go to they carry their friend and they go to they carry their friend and they go to the roof of where Jesus is is teaching

the roof of where Jesus is is teaching the roof of where Jesus is is teaching in this house and they begin digging and in this house and they begin digging and in this house and they begin digging and they tear the roof off. You can imagine they tear the roof off. You can imagine they tear the roof off. You can imagine Jesus just feeling the chunks coming Jesus just feeling the chunks coming Jesus just feeling the chunks coming down and he's like, "What's going on?" down and he's like, "What's going on?" down and he's like, "What's going on?" And they're like, "Our friend is hurt. And they're like, "Our friend is hurt. And they're like, "Our friend is hurt. My friend needs you." And they lower My friend needs you." And they lower My friend needs you." And they lower this man down. If I were to go down the street, how If I were to go down the street, how many men do you think, and I pulled many men do you think, and I pulled many men do you think, and I pulled randomly, how many men do you think randomly, how many men do you think randomly, how many men do you think would have matt carriers? would have matt carriers? would have matt carriers? I do. I do, too. I do. I do, too. I do. I do, too. Thank you for being one of those matt Thank you for being one of those matt Thank you for being one of those matt carriers. Yeah. Well, we saw this coming carriers. Yeah. Well, we saw this coming carriers. Yeah. Well, we saw this coming 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I 40 years ago. You saw it coming. No, I just knew that men in there, cuz I saw just knew that men in there, cuz I saw just knew that men in there, cuz I saw it among men I knew and respected and it among men I knew and respected and it among men I knew and respected and loved, they would get, you know, to loved, they would get, you know, to loved, they would get, you know, to middle age and then old age and they had middle age and then old age and they had middle age and then old age and they had no real male friends. And so we decided no real male friends. And so we decided no real male friends. And so we decided the five of us in college, we just not the five of us in college, we just not the five of us in college, we just not we're not not going to let that happen. we're not not going to let that happen. we're not not going to let that happen. And we set up a pretty complex structure And we set up a pretty complex structure And we set up a pretty complex structure to maintain that friendship. Um to maintain that friendship. Um to maintain that friendship. Um and we did. We sure did. And uh for you and we did. We sure did. And uh for you and we did. We sure did. And uh for you know 40 over 40 years now. And uh so know 40 over 40 years now. And uh so know 40 over 40 years now. And uh so that really one of them profound things that really one of them profound things that really one of them profound things in my life. But I just know I really in my life. But I just know I really in my life. But I just know I really feel like I'm one of very few 57year-old feel like I'm one of very few 57year-old feel like I'm one of very few 57year-old men I know who has like four best men I know who has like four best men I know who has like four best friends for real though not friends for real though not friends for real though not kind of academically my best friends but kind of academically my best friends but kind of academically my best friends but like people I see regularly who are the like people I see regularly who are the like people I see regularly who are the godfathers of my children who we you godfathers of my children who we you godfathers of my children who we you know travel somewhere in the world every know travel somewhere in the world every know travel somewhere in the world every single year who I talk to all the time single year who I talk to all the time single year who I talk to all the time who I've relied on consistently for 40 who I've relied on consistently for 40 who I've relied on consistently for 40 years for advice or if I needed it money

years for advice or if I needed it money years for advice or if I needed it money or whatever I need. And I will say, not or whatever I need. And I will say, not or whatever I need. And I will say, not to brag, but it's not bragging. It's to brag, but it's not bragging. It's to brag, but it's not bragging. It's just the nature of it. Of those four just the nature of it. Of those four just the nature of it. Of those four men, five men, all five are still men, five men, all five are still men, five men, all five are still happily married. happily married. happily married. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> That's true. >> All five have children who respect them. >> All five have children who respect them. >> All five have children who respect them. All five are just basically happy. All five are just basically happy. All five are just basically happy. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And I think it's the in part the results >> And I think it's the in part the results >> And I think it's the in part the results of those friendships. of those friendships. of those friendships. >> Oh, that's been one of the the single >> Oh, that's been one of the the single >> Oh, that's been one of the the single most profound gifts of my life. You've most profound gifts of my life. You've most profound gifts of my life. You've been one of the most profound gifts of been one of the most profound gifts of been one of the most profound gifts of my life. my life. my life. partly. partly. partly. You know what's funny about that group You know what's funny about that group You know what's funny about that group of our group of five guys is you of our group of five guys is you of our group of five guys is you couldn't find five more different couldn't find five more different couldn't find five more different people. people. people. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Right. And the the beauty of it was the >> Right. And the the beauty of it was the >> Right. And the the beauty of it was the commitment and the the covenant where we commitment and the the covenant where we commitment and the the covenant where we pushed in. Exactly. We were 20 years pushed in. Exactly. We were 20 years pushed in. Exactly. We were 20 years old. We didn't know what we were saying. old. We didn't know what we were saying. old. We didn't know what we were saying. >> And we pushed in and we said, "All >> And we pushed in and we said, "All >> And we pushed in and we said, "All right, we we will not break this this right, we we will not break this this right, we we will not break this this this covenant, this vow with one another this covenant, this vow with one another this covenant, this vow with one another >> until we die." >> until we die." >> until we die." >> Until we die. And no, we have not and we >> Until we die. And no, we have not and we >> Until we die. And no, we have not and we will not. But the thing about it is you will not. But the thing about it is you will not. But the thing about it is you think about all the seasons of life think about all the seasons of life think about all the seasons of life where we've been through or all the where we've been through or all the where we've been through or all the incarnations of birth and births and incarnations of birth and births and incarnations of birth and births and deaths and you know all the transitions deaths and you know all the transitions deaths and you know all the transitions and you know all the tears that have and you know all the tears that have and you know all the tears that have been cried and all those things that you been cried and all those things that you been cried and all those things that you know we've won and we've lost and uh know we've won and we've lost and uh know we've won and we've lost and uh then and the how the world has tried to then and the how the world has tried to then and the how the world has tried to conspire to pull our relationships apart conspire to pull our relationships apart conspire to pull our relationships apart just by proximity. But we've really held just by proximity. But we've really held just by proximity. But we've really held to that. And for me, I know personally I

to that. And for me, I know personally I to that. And for me, I know personally I just say knowing in those dark places just say knowing in those dark places just say knowing in those dark places that I could always just reach out. No. that I could always just reach out. No. that I could always just reach out. No. Yeah. And just knowing that you're there Yeah. And just knowing that you're there Yeah. And just knowing that you're there and knowing that the other guys are and knowing that the other guys are and knowing that the other guys are there there there is it's been such a gospel expression. is it's been such a gospel expression. is it's been such a gospel expression. The number of time I talked about The number of time I talked about The number of time I talked about earlier, you remember we were saying earlier, you remember we were saying earlier, you remember we were saying about how, you know, Jesus comes, he about how, you know, Jesus comes, he about how, you know, Jesus comes, he saves us from our sins. He saves us saves us from our sins. He saves us saves us from our sins. He saves us from, you know, breaks the back of sin from, you know, breaks the back of sin from, you know, breaks the back of sin and death. But, you know, foundation, and death. But, you know, foundation, and death. But, you know, foundation, he's saving me from myself. And the he's saving me from myself. And the he's saving me from myself. And the reason, one of the reasons I I love our reason, one of the reasons I I love our reason, one of the reasons I I love our friendship is the number of times you friendship is the number of times you friendship is the number of times you guys have stepped in and kind of saved guys have stepped in and kind of saved guys have stepped in and kind of saved me from my my own decisions. me from my my own decisions. me from my my own decisions. >> Been there, >> Been there, >> Been there, >> right? You know, just being able to >> right? You know, just being able to >> right? You know, just being able to speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, speak like, hey, I wouldn't do that. Or, you know, just loving each other through you know, just loving each other through you know, just loving each other through hard times. And I mean, you know, losing hard times. And I mean, you know, losing hard times. And I mean, you know, losing I remember my dad died. I I will never I remember my dad died. I I will never I remember my dad died. I I will never forget it. It was last January. And forget it. It was last January. And forget it. It was last January. And walking into that church was packed and walking into that church was packed and walking into that church was packed and turning around and seeing you guys all turning around and seeing you guys all turning around and seeing you guys all sitting on the row. It just just sitting on the row. It just just sitting on the row. It just just shattered my heart, man. In a be the shattered my heart, man. In a be the shattered my heart, man. In a be the most beautiful way. It was a huge gift most beautiful way. It was a huge gift most beautiful way. It was a huge gift to me, man. It used to be.

to me, man. It used to be. to me, man. It used to be. >> Yeah. No, it's been absolutely >> Yeah. No, it's been absolutely >> Yeah. No, it's been absolutely incredible. incredible. incredible. Yep. I could go on. I could write a book Yep. I could go on. I could write a book Yep. I could go on. I could write a book about it and never will. Never talked about it and never will. Never talked about it and never will. Never talked about in public before, but the only about in public before, but the only about in public before, but the only reason I'm saying that is not to brag, reason I'm saying that is not to brag, reason I'm saying that is not to brag, but just to say because it's not but just to say because it's not but just to say because it's not anything, you know, I've just been the anything, you know, I've just been the anything, you know, I've just been the beneficiary of it. But I think it's beneficiary of it. But I think it's beneficiary of it. But I think it's worth saying it out loud worth saying it out loud worth saying it out loud that like in some sense it's it's that like in some sense it's it's that like in some sense it's it's different obviously totally different different obviously totally different different obviously totally different from marriage, but it it's the same in from marriage, but it it's the same in from marriage, but it it's the same in the sense that it's the product of a the sense that it's the product of a the sense that it's the product of a covenant of a promise. covenant of a promise. covenant of a promise. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> To other people that you're just going >> To other people that you're just going >> To other people that you're just going to abide by. And like when you have like to abide by. And like when you have like to abide by. And like when you have like a six-month-old a six-month-old a six-month-old >> Mhm. And your buddies are like, you >> Mhm. And your buddies are like, you >> Mhm. And your buddies are like, you know, this year we're meeting in know, this year we're meeting in know, this year we're meeting in Barbados or wherever we're meeting, Barbados or wherever we're meeting, Barbados or wherever we're meeting, Hartford, Connecticut. Hartford, Connecticut. Hartford, Connecticut. >> And your wife is like, what? >> And your wife is like, what? >> And your wife is like, what? >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> You know, come on now. You've got three >> You know, come on now. You've got three >> You know, come on now. You've got three kids and I'm breastfeeding. kids and I'm breastfeeding. kids and I'm breastfeeding. >> It cost you something to be there >> It cost you something to be there >> It cost you something to be there >> big time. >> big time. >> big time. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. >> And you you say >> And you you say >> And you you say >> cost them something for a lot. And I >> cost them something for a lot. And I >> cost them something for a lot. And I think think think >> they they've paid up many times. >> they they've paid up many times. >> they they've paid up many times. >> All five of them support it cuz they see >> All five of them support it cuz they see >> All five of them support it cuz they see its fruits. But but to say to your wife, its fruits. But but to say to your wife, its fruits. But but to say to your wife, I'm I'm sorry. This is a commitment that I'm I'm sorry. This is a commitment that I'm I'm sorry. This is a commitment that I made. And she's like, and you never I made. And she's like, and you never I made. And she's like, and you never want to make your wife mad, especially want to make your wife mad, especially want to make your wife mad, especially when she just bore your child and and when she just bore your child and and when she just bore your child and and you do it and like that. So it does take you do it and like that. So it does take you do it and like that. So it does take some sacrifice, not small sacrifice.

some sacrifice, not small sacrifice. some sacrifice, not small sacrifice. >> No, tremendous. And it's so essential, >> No, tremendous. And it's so essential, >> No, tremendous. And it's so essential, but the the dividends are are so but the the dividends are are so but the the dividends are are so exponentially more. I mean going back to exponentially more. I mean going back to exponentially more. I mean going back to we're saying like the importance of male we're saying like the importance of male we're saying like the importance of male relationship in that is the problem is relationship in that is the problem is relationship in that is the problem is you know in the same way we talked about you know in the same way we talked about you know in the same way we talked about pornography or addiction one of the pornography or addiction one of the pornography or addiction one of the things is is it pushes you in isolation things is is it pushes you in isolation things is is it pushes you in isolation like isolation is a bad thing. like isolation is a bad thing. like isolation is a bad thing. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And for us as men as masculine beings >> And for us as men as masculine beings >> And for us as men as masculine beings you you lose perspective on your own you you lose perspective on your own you you lose perspective on your own masculinity and your own sense of self masculinity and your own sense of self masculinity and your own sense of self and your own role as a husband and your and your own role as a husband and your and your own role as a husband and your own role as a father. And it's essential own role as a father. And it's essential own role as a father. And it's essential that you have good, healthy that you have good, healthy that you have good, healthy men that can serve as mirrors and men that can serve as mirrors and men that can serve as mirrors and reflect and just kind of play catch with reflect and just kind of play catch with reflect and just kind of play catch with you a little bit on these ideas. And you a little bit on these ideas. And you a little bit on these ideas. And it's or or you you get in your own it's or or you you get in your own it's or or you you get in your own oneman echo chamber and you start oneman echo chamber and you start oneman echo chamber and you start feeling crazy. Then you start feeling feeling crazy. Then you start feeling feeling crazy. Then you start feeling the shame. I'm not doing this right or I the shame. I'm not doing this right or I the shame. I'm not doing this right or I don't know. And then you start living don't know. And then you start living don't know. And then you start living out a caricature of what you think you out a caricature of what you think you out a caricature of what you think you should be versus what you kind of really should be versus what you kind of really should be versus what you kind of really are. And the next thing you know, you are. And the next thing you know, you are. And the next thing you know, you want to talk about like how do marriage want to talk about like how do marriage want to talk about like how do marriage problems start? like men, you know, problems start? like men, you know, problems start? like men, you know, there's a great spot, a great place. And there's a great spot, a great place. And there's a great spot, a great place. And for I think having those healthy for I think having those healthy for I think having those healthy relationships for men, certainly for me, relationships for men, certainly for me, relationships for men, certainly for me, has done a tremendous amount in helping has done a tremendous amount in helping has done a tremendous amount in helping me have a healthy marriage because it's me have a healthy marriage because it's me have a healthy marriage because it's helped me regulate my sense of self and helped me regulate my sense of self and helped me regulate my sense of self and like and also just like my sense of my like and also just like my sense of my like and also just like my sense of my vain sense of self.

vain sense of self. vain sense of self. >> I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect >> I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect >> I got famous in my 20s. I didn't expect to be famous. I got famous. It's been to be famous. I got famous. It's been to be famous. I got famous. It's been >> I would not have handled that well in my >> I would not have handled that well in my >> I would not have handled that well in my 20s. Oh, I don't think I I don't think I 20s. Oh, I don't think I I don't think I 20s. Oh, I don't think I I don't think I did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, did. But if it hadn't been for you guys, I think I would have been totally off I think I would have been totally off I think I would have been totally off the deep end. Completely off the deep the deep end. Completely off the deep the deep end. Completely off the deep end. And um end. And um end. And um >> and our wives >> and our wives >> and our wives >> for sure. >> for sure. >> for sure. >> We marry good women. >> We marry good women. >> We marry good women. >> Yeah, for sure. But you know, I know a >> Yeah, for sure. But you know, I know a >> Yeah, for sure. But you know, I know a lot of married men who lot of married men who lot of married men who >> your buddies are a little different from >> your buddies are a little different from >> your buddies are a little different from your wife because your wife is your wife because your wife is your wife because your wife is thankfully thankfully thankfully >> No, I think it's harder for your wife to >> No, I think it's harder for your wife to >> No, I think it's harder for your wife to be like, "Oh, stop it." But you go see be like, "Oh, stop it." But you go see be like, "Oh, stop it." But you go see your buddies and you're like, I'm host a your buddies and you're like, I'm host a your buddies and you're like, I'm host a cable television show. They're like cable television show. They're like cable television show. They're like cable. They don't care at all. This is cable. They don't care at all. This is cable. They don't care at all. This is true. It's so good. true. It's so good. true. It's so good. >> So important. It's so important. >> So important. It's so important. >> So important. It's so important. >> No. And I think what I, you know, I >> No. And I think what I, you know, I >> No. And I think what I, you know, I think this this was kind of baked into think this this was kind of baked into think this this was kind of baked into the cake with us cuz I mean, we met when the cake with us cuz I mean, we met when the cake with us cuz I mean, we met when we were 17 or whatever, right? And we we were 17 or whatever, right? And we we were 17 or whatever, right? And we met, you know, we were very unimpressive met, you know, we were very unimpressive met, you know, we were very unimpressive at that time. Not that we're very at that time. Not that we're very at that time. Not that we're very impressive now, impressive now, impressive now, >> but true. But what happens is it's is >> but true. But what happens is it's is >> but true. But what happens is it's is that and I think one of the values of that and I think one of the values of that and I think one of the values of this friendship and I think it's values this friendship and I think it's values this friendship and I think it's values of any male if I could just elevate this of any male if I could just elevate this of any male if I could just elevate this one aspect of it one aspect of it one aspect of it >> is that we love each other and we >> is that we love each other and we >> is that we love each other and we respect each other but we're not overly respect each other but we're not overly respect each other but we're not overly impressed with each other impressed with each other impressed with each other >> right >> right >> right >> like this might be hard for people to >> like this might be hard for people to >> like this might be hard for people to understand but like when we get together understand but like when we get together understand but like when we get together we will rag on we will bust each other's we will rag on we will bust each other's we will rag on we will bust each other's chops in a way that only people that chops in a way that only people that chops in a way that only people that have that kind of relationship can do it have that kind of relationship can do it have that kind of relationship can do it yeah you you we you know lovingly yeah you you we you know lovingly yeah you you we you know lovingly humiliate one another and humiliate one another and humiliate one another and >> continuously

>> continuously >> continuously >> continuously yes and so but I think >> continuously yes and so but I think >> continuously yes and so but I think there's there's a huge value to that and there's there's a huge value to that and there's there's a huge value to that and and so for male relationship we're what and so for male relationship we're what and so for male relationship we're what I'm talking about I'm not it doesn't I'm talking about I'm not it doesn't I'm talking about I'm not it doesn't have to be some giant therapy session it have to be some giant therapy session it have to be some giant therapy session it just has to be men that see you that are just has to be men that see you that are just has to be men that see you that are that have the ability and willingness to that have the ability and willingness to that have the ability and willingness to speak that truth into you and say you speak that truth into you and say you speak that truth into you and say you know no dude you're not all that or dude know no dude you're not all that or dude know no dude you're not all that or dude about 10 years ago I was you know I about 10 years ago I was you know I about 10 years ago I was you know I decid one of my children's like you you decid one of my children's like you you decid one of my children's like you you got to get off nicotine and I was like I got to get off nicotine and I was like I got to get off nicotine and I was like I knew that was it was obviously it's knew that was it was obviously it's knew that was it was obviously it's wrong to get off nicotine wrong to get off nicotine wrong to get off nicotine >> when you nicotine. >> when you nicotine. >> when you nicotine. >> So I get bullied by this. >> So I get bullied by this. >> So I get bullied by this. >> You love nicotine more than >> You love nicotine more than >> You love nicotine more than >> I I really do. Always have. But anyway, >> I I really do. Always have. But anyway, >> I I really do. Always have. But anyway, this one child's like, "Yeah, it's bad this one child's like, "Yeah, it's bad this one child's like, "Yeah, it's bad for you." Okay. Which it's not. But for you." Okay. Which it's not. But for you." Okay. Which it's not. But anyway, I get off nicotine and anyway, I get off nicotine and anyway, I get off nicotine and immediately go crazy and get fat. And I immediately go crazy and get fat. And I immediately go crazy and get fat. And I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I kind of knew that I was crazy, but I didn't quite realize how fat I was didn't quite realize how fat I was didn't quite realize how fat I was because no one in my world said one word because no one in my world said one word because no one in my world said one word to me about it. And I was like, "Man, I to me about it. And I was like, "Man, I to me about it. And I was like, "Man, I think my pan shrunk." Whatever. We go think my pan shrunk." Whatever. We go think my pan shrunk." Whatever. We go skiing and I'll never forget it. We're skiing and I'll never forget it. We're skiing and I'll never forget it. We're on the we get off the tram in Jackson, on the we get off the tram in Jackson, on the we get off the tram in Jackson, Wyoming. And you know, the five of us, Wyoming. And you know, the five of us, Wyoming. And you know, the five of us, whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives whatever, we're skiing. One of us lives out there. And so anyway, I get off and out there. And so anyway, I get off and out there. And so anyway, I get off and I'm with one of them turns to me, goes, I'm with one of them turns to me, goes, I'm with one of them turns to me, goes, "Dude, you're fat." And I was like, "I "Dude, you're fat." And I was like, "I "Dude, you're fat." And I was like, "I don't think I'm fat. What?" He goes, don't think I'm fat. What?" He goes, don't think I'm fat. What?" He goes, "Look at you. You're fat. It's "Look at you. You're fat. It's "Look at you. You're fat. It's disgusting." And I was like, "I'm not disgusting." And I was like, "I'm not disgusting." And I was like, "I'm not fat." He goes, "You got your own weather fat." He goes, "You got your own weather fat." He goes, "You got your own weather system, man."

system, man." system, man." Like, I'm on TV every day. I don't think Like, I'm on TV every day. I don't think Like, I'm on TV every day. I don't think someone would tell me if I was fat. He someone would tell me if I was fat. He someone would tell me if I was fat. He goes, "Dude, you're fat. goes, "Dude, you're fat. goes, "Dude, you're fat. >> Someone is telling you." >> Someone is telling you." >> Someone is telling you." >> And I remember this. >> And I remember this. >> And I remember this. >> I I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen >> I I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen >> I I went and bought a tin of Copenhagen that night and immediately, you know, that night and immediately, you know, that night and immediately, you know, lost some of the weight. But the point lost some of the weight. But the point lost some of the weight. But the point is, I was the only person who would tell is, I was the only person who would tell is, I was the only person who would tell me that me that me that >> and so so gently, too. >> and so so gently, too. >> and so so gently, too. >> I think everybody else noticed. I mean, >> I think everybody else noticed. I mean, >> I think everybody else noticed. I mean, obviously, everyone else noticed, but obviously, everyone else noticed, but obviously, everyone else noticed, but not one person said one word. not one person said one word. not one person said one word. >> Isn't that interesting? >> Isn't that interesting? >> Isn't that interesting? >> But you know, uh do you know why he did >> But you know, uh do you know why he did >> But you know, uh do you know why he did that? I'm going back to use that phrase. that? I'm going back to use that phrase. that? I'm going back to use that phrase. He had earned the right. He had earned the right. He had earned the right. >> Yes. He was say because you knew he knew >> Yes. He was say because you knew he knew >> Yes. He was say because you knew he knew he loves you, he loves you, he loves you, >> right? And he knew you knew he cared and >> right? And he knew you knew he cared and >> right? And he knew you knew he cared and you godfather to my son. Yes. No, I you godfather to my son. Yes. No, I you godfather to my son. Yes. No, I know. know. know. >> No, >> No, >> No, >> I know you're talking about >> I know you're talking about >> I know you're talking about >> Yeah, you kind of fat too. >> Yeah, you kind of fat too. >> Yeah, you kind of fat too. >> I agree. Um anyway, yeah, what an >> I agree. Um anyway, yeah, what an >> I agree. Um anyway, yeah, what an incredible blessing. And I hope it just incredible blessing. And I hope it just incredible blessing. And I hope it just this conversation doesn't make other this conversation doesn't make other this conversation doesn't make other people feel people feel people feel Well, I don't know. It's just true. And Well, I don't know. It's just true. And Well, I don't know. It's just true. And so I'm glad we so I'm glad we so I'm glad we >> It is true. I say that I think I hope >> It is true. I say that I think I hope >> It is true. I say that I think I hope other people hear it. They hear this as other people hear it. They hear this as other people hear it. They hear this as an invitation, an invitation, an invitation, >> right?

>> right? >> right? >> They that whether you're young or >> They that whether you're young or >> They that whether you're young or especially young people like lock in, especially young people like lock in, especially young people like lock in, man. Find your find your find your you man. Find your find your find your you man. Find your find your find your you know your your mat carriers. know your your mat carriers. know your your mat carriers. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Find your mat carriers, man. And uh cuz >> Find your mat carriers, man. And uh cuz >> Find your mat carriers, man. And uh cuz you're going to need them cuz you're you're going to need them cuz you're you're going to need them cuz you're going to cuz one day you're going to be going to cuz one day you're going to be going to cuz one day you're going to be carrying that the mat for that guy. But carrying that the mat for that guy. But carrying that the mat for that guy. But I promise you, your day is coming where I promise you, your day is coming where I promise you, your day is coming where you're going to be on the mat and you're you're going to be on the mat and you're you're going to be on the mat and you're not going to be able to get up and not going to be able to get up and not going to be able to get up and they're going to need to carry you to they're going to need to carry you to they're going to need to carry you to where you need to be. Boy, that is real. where you need to be. Boy, that is real. where you need to be. Boy, that is real. >> And it is true. It is true. It is true. >> And it is true. It is true. It is true. >> And it is true. It is true. It is true. As sure as I'm sitting here. And for As sure as I'm sitting here. And for As sure as I'm sitting here. And for people that are older, I don't care how people that are older, I don't care how people that are older, I don't care how old, there are men that are and if you old, there are men that are and if you old, there are men that are and if you don't go to a church or you don't have a don't go to a church or you don't have a don't go to a church or you don't have a place where people can can do that, that place where people can can do that, that place where people can can do that, that then you don't have a community, then then you don't have a community, then then you don't have a community, then either look deeper in your church or either look deeper in your church or either look deeper in your church or find another one because it is so find another one because it is so find another one because it is so essential and it's so available. essential and it's so available. essential and it's so available. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> Yes. >> And it just is. And it just it it just >> And it just is. And it just it it just >> And it just is. And it just it it just takes the risk of of takes the risk of of takes the risk of of being able to step in and a willingness being able to step in and a willingness being able to step in and a willingness to just tell the truth. And also to be a to just tell the truth. And also to be a to just tell the truth. And also to be a willingness to be the kind of person willingness to be the kind of person willingness to be the kind of person that can step in and hear someone else's that can step in and hear someone else's that can step in and hear someone else's as they tell you the truth about their as they tell you the truth about their as they tell you the truth about their life and you love them anyway, whether life and you love them anyway, whether life and you love them anyway, whether it's said graciously or they, you know, it's said graciously or they, you know, it's said graciously or they, you know, are telling you you're fat in a very are telling you you're fat in a very are telling you you're fat in a very unceremonious way. But it's done with unceremonious way. But it's done with unceremonious way. But it's done with love. And I I just think it's it's I I love. And I I just think it's it's I I love. And I I just think it's it's I I see I hear it. I just I I I I say that see I hear it. I just I I I I say that see I hear it. I just I I I I say that as an invitation, man. I think it's as an invitation, man. I think it's as an invitation, man. I think it's good. Well, I I hope it is cuz it's one good. Well, I I hope it is cuz it's one good. Well, I I hope it is cuz it's one of the most important things I've ever of the most important things I've ever of the most important things I've ever done after my marriage. The most done after my marriage. The most done after my marriage. The most important thing. So, um last question important thing. So, um last question important thing. So, um last question and I I think it's something I think and I I think it's something I think and I I think it's something I think about a lot, but your answer when I

about a lot, but your answer when I about a lot, but your answer when I asked you what would you say to someone asked you what would you say to someone asked you what would you say to someone to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe to anyone who was thinking, well, maybe I'm trans, I thought your answer was was I'm trans, I thought your answer was was I'm trans, I thought your answer was was wonderful because you approached the wonderful because you approached the wonderful because you approached the person with love. So I want to ask a person with love. So I want to ask a person with love. So I want to ask a related question about something that's related question about something that's related question about something that's a kind of trend now among people who are a kind of trend now among people who are a kind of trend now among people who are really hurting some of whom I I think really hurting some of whom I I think really hurting some of whom I I think are wonderful people veterans are wonderful people veterans are wonderful people veterans >> and it's the use of like very very heavy >> and it's the use of like very very heavy >> and it's the use of like very very heavy duty hallucinogens duty hallucinogens duty hallucinogens >> famously IA but there are a bunch of IBA >> famously IA but there are a bunch of IBA >> famously IA but there are a bunch of IBA there are a bunch of them there are a bunch of them there are a bunch of them >> to heal them and and the reason that >> to heal them and and the reason that >> to heal them and and the reason that I've never really talked about it is cuz I've never really talked about it is cuz I've never really talked about it is cuz I want to approach it with that same I want to approach it with that same I want to approach it with that same spirit cuz these are like some of the spirit cuz these are like some of the spirit cuz these are like some of the best people I know and also some of the best people I know and also some of the best people I know and also some of the most hurting people and they've done most hurting people and they've done most hurting people and they've done what they were asked to do. In some what they were asked to do. In some what they were asked to do. In some cases, it meant killing other people and cases, it meant killing other people and cases, it meant killing other people and they've been deeply damaged by it. they've been deeply damaged by it. they've been deeply damaged by it. That's my read. That's my read. That's my read. >> We spend a lot of time talking about how >> We spend a lot of time talking about how >> We spend a lot of time talking about how bad it is to be killed. I think we spend bad it is to be killed. I think we spend bad it is to be killed. I think we spend almost no time talking about how bad it almost no time talking about how bad it almost no time talking about how bad it is for someone to kill. is for someone to kill. is for someone to kill. >> But it is bad. And I know a lot of >> But it is bad. And I know a lot of >> But it is bad. And I know a lot of people who've done it and has hurt every people who've done it and has hurt every people who've done it and has hurt every one of them. So in that pain or out of one of them. So in that pain or out of one of them. So in that pain or out of that pain many of them go to that pain many of them go to that pain many of them go to hallucinogens very heavy duty hallucinogens very heavy duty hallucinogens very heavy duty hallucinogens hallucinogens hallucinogens and I should just be totally honest I've and I should just be totally honest I've and I should just be totally honest I've used hall solution as a child and I was used hall solution as a child and I was used hall solution as a child and I was totally convinced like that's not for me totally convinced like that's not for me totally convinced like that's not for me that's bad I was afraid of it um I did that's bad I was afraid of it um I did that's bad I was afraid of it um I did it a lot and I was really afraid of it it a lot and I was really afraid of it it a lot and I was really afraid of it and I'm very opposed to it but I want to and I'm very opposed to it but I want to and I'm very opposed to it but I want to be open-minded and loving because I know be open-minded and loving because I know be open-minded and loving because I know that they are suffering so much that they are suffering so much that they are suffering so much >> so that's the preamble of My question is

>> so that's the preamble of My question is >> so that's the preamble of My question is what what's your view of that? what what's your view of that? what what's your view of that? Um, taking that in pieces, I would say Um, taking that in pieces, I would say Um, taking that in pieces, I would say first of all, you know, medically first of all, you know, medically first of all, you know, medically speaking, like I, you know, I don't know speaking, like I, you know, I don't know speaking, like I, you know, I don't know like the right like the right like the right >> I know I've got people that I know that >> I know I've got people that I know that >> I know I've got people that I know that had uh medication resistant depression had uh medication resistant depression had uh medication resistant depression that had done experimental but medically that had done experimental but medically that had done experimental but medically directed use of certain things that directed use of certain things that directed use of certain things that really helped them and with their really helped them and with their really helped them and with their depressions and things like that. But I depressions and things like that. But I depressions and things like that. But I don't know enough to speak about that. don't know enough to speak about that. don't know enough to speak about that. Um, I would say to someone who's Um, I would say to someone who's Um, I would say to someone who's suffering from a PTSD to that level of suffering from a PTSD to that level of suffering from a PTSD to that level of what you're talking about, first of all, what you're talking about, first of all, what you're talking about, first of all, in the same way, uh, uh, what would I in the same way, uh, uh, what would I in the same way, uh, uh, what would I say? I I wouldn't say much in the say? I I wouldn't say much in the say? I I wouldn't say much in the beginning because I think there's just beginning because I think there's just beginning because I think there's just so the the trauma of that is something so the the trauma of that is something so the the trauma of that is something they never asked for. they never asked for. they never asked for. >> And if I could distill it down, you >> And if I could distill it down, you >> And if I could distill it down, you know, the here's the great tragedy of it know, the here's the great tragedy of it know, the here's the great tragedy of it is I would say is I would say is I would say is it's not your fault. like it's not is it's not your fault. like it's not is it's not your fault. like it's not your fault in the sense that you know your fault in the sense that you know your fault in the sense that you know you may have done things but to have you may have done things but to have you may have done things but to have those experiences and you be thrust into those experiences and you be thrust into those experiences and you be thrust into a context where it's unwinable where a context where it's unwinable where a context where it's unwinable where you're being you know you're in war or you're being you know you're in war or you're being you know you're in war or whatever the context may be and I know whatever the context may be and I know whatever the context may be and I know they're nuanced and varied but like it's they're nuanced and varied but like it's they're nuanced and varied but like it's not your fault that you have you bear not your fault that you have you bear not your fault that you have you bear the the sort of intellectual or or not the the sort of intellectual or or not the the sort of intellectual or or not the the psychiatric wounds and those are the the psychiatric wounds and those are the the psychiatric wounds and those are real like those are neuropathways that real like those are neuropathways that real like those are neuropathways that are like legitimately carved right so I are like legitimately carved right so I are like legitimately carved right so I don't wink at that like it's a thing.

don't wink at that like it's a thing. don't wink at that like it's a thing. PTSD is a real medical reality. Um, PTSD is a real medical reality. Um, PTSD is a real medical reality. Um, it's not your fault, comma. But sadly, it's not your fault, comma. But sadly, it's not your fault, comma. But sadly, and this is the tearing of it, it's now and this is the tearing of it, it's now and this is the tearing of it, it's now your responsibility. So now, what are your responsibility. So now, what are your responsibility. So now, what are you going to do? How do you choose to you going to do? How do you choose to you going to do? How do you choose to step in these directions? And in so far step in these directions? And in so far step in these directions? And in so far as you range of treatments, I'm not an as you range of treatments, I'm not an as you range of treatments, I'm not an expert on that, so I'm not going to expert on that, so I'm not going to expert on that, so I'm not going to speak to that. But as far as like speak to that. But as far as like speak to that. But as far as like hallucinogens and you say hi or DMT or hallucinogens and you say hi or DMT or hallucinogens and you say hi or DMT or >> where all of a sudden you are meeting >> where all of a sudden you are meeting >> where all of a sudden you are meeting figures in the spiritual realm, figures in the spiritual realm, figures in the spiritual realm, >> this is this is where I this is where I >> this is this is where I this is where I >> this is this is where I this is where I have have have >> but that's what I'm specifically talking >> but that's what I'm specifically talking >> but that's what I'm specifically talking about. about. about. >> Okay. This is where I have strong >> Okay. This is where I have strong >> Okay. This is where I have strong opinions and my strong opinion is that opinions and my strong opinion is that opinions and my strong opinion is that much like I talked about earlier, you much like I talked about earlier, you much like I talked about earlier, you know, we we live on on you know we live know, we we live on on you know we live know, we we live on on you know we live on a side of a curtain. There's a there on a side of a curtain. There's a there on a side of a curtain. There's a there there's a and there are thin places as there's a and there are thin places as there's a and there are thin places as you know like we talk about when I you know like we talk about when I you know like we talk about when I minister to someone by their bedside is minister to someone by their bedside is minister to someone by their bedside is that it's a thin place. You can almost that it's a thin place. You can almost that it's a thin place. You can almost feel the the they're crossing over and feel the the they're crossing over and feel the the they're crossing over and it's what the Celtics would call a thin it's what the Celtics would call a thin it's what the Celtics would call a thin place. It's like the heaven and earth or place. It's like the heaven and earth or place. It's like the heaven and earth or the divine or the supernatural the the divine or the supernatural the the divine or the supernatural the unseen realm and the seen realm are are unseen realm and the seen realm are are unseen realm and the seen realm are are beginning to touch. Right.

beginning to touch. Right. beginning to touch. Right. >> And that's real. >> And that's real. >> And that's real. >> Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he >> Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he >> Yeah. And what Jesus says in John 10, he says that, you know, there there is that says that, you know, there there is that says that, you know, there there is that inside and and there is that, but I'm inside and and there is that, but I'm inside and and there is that, but I'm the gate. And if you want to go into the gate. And if you want to go into the gate. And if you want to go into this that you want to go through the this that you want to go through the this that you want to go through the unseen realm where it produces this life unseen realm where it produces this life unseen realm where it produces this life and God, it's there's a way to do this. and God, it's there's a way to do this. and God, it's there's a way to do this. And it's through me. I'm the gate. And And it's through me. I'm the gate. And And it's through me. I'm the gate. And if you try to climb over the walls and if you try to climb over the walls and if you try to climb over the walls and you try to get in in any other way, you try to get in in any other way, you try to get in in any other way, you're doing that, guess what? You're a you're doing that, guess what? You're a you're doing that, guess what? You're a robber and you're a thief and you're robber and you're a thief and you're robber and you're a thief and you're trying to gain the things of God without trying to gain the things of God without trying to gain the things of God without God. and you're trying to gain access to God. and you're trying to gain access to God. and you're trying to gain access to the divine and the unseen and all the the divine and the unseen and all the the divine and the unseen and all the all you want the cookies in the cookie all you want the cookies in the cookie all you want the cookies in the cookie jar, but you don't but you're not going jar, but you don't but you're not going jar, but you don't but you're not going through the gate. through the gate. through the gate. And uh what I would say is you read And uh what I would say is you read And uh what I would say is you read stories about DMT and you read people stories about DMT and you read people stories about DMT and you read people and I you know I've never done it. I I and I you know I've never done it. I I and I you know I've never done it. I I uh but I know people that have dabbled uh but I know people that have dabbled uh but I know people that have dabbled in that quite a bit and I know that when in that quite a bit and I know that when in that quite a bit and I know that when you hear encounters that I've I've you hear encounters that I've I've you hear encounters that I've I've crossed over and I've had this this crossed over and I've had this this crossed over and I've had this this encounter with all these beings and encounter with all these beings and encounter with all these beings and there was this a purple woman that I there was this a purple woman that I there was this a purple woman that I talked to and I developed this talked to and I developed this talked to and I developed this relationship like I was there for years relationship like I was there for years relationship like I was there for years but I was almost there for 10 minutes but I was almost there for 10 minutes but I was almost there for 10 minutes and then somebody else goes and has the and then somebody else goes and has the and then somebody else goes and has the same trip and goes in and he comes back same trip and goes in and he comes back same trip and goes in and he comes back and says hey I met a purple woman who and says hey I met a purple woman who and says hey I met a purple woman who knew your name and was asking about you knew your name and was asking about you knew your name and was asking about you which that that's document reality.

which that that's document reality. which that that's document reality. >> I know people that many people have that >> I know people that many people have that >> I know people that many people have that experience. experience. experience. >> So what I'm telling you is there this >> So what I'm telling you is there this >> So what I'm telling you is there this isn't just some psychiatric mindbending isn't just some psychiatric mindbending isn't just some psychiatric mindbending exercise. You're actually crossing you exercise. You're actually crossing you exercise. You're actually crossing you you're craw claw you're not going you're craw claw you're not going you're craw claw you're not going through the gate. are craw crawling over through the gate. are craw crawling over through the gate. are craw crawling over the fence the fence the fence >> but into a real pattern >> but into a real pattern >> but into a real pattern >> into a real into a real place >> into a real into a real place >> into a real into a real place >> that is demonic and those are you are >> that is demonic and those are you are >> that is demonic and those are you are you are encountering uh I think it's a you are encountering uh I think it's a you are encountering uh I think it's a demonic experience and I think it's a demonic experience and I think it's a demonic experience and I think it's a dangerous one because what's so dangerous one because what's so dangerous one because what's so dangerous about it and this is true dangerous about it and this is true dangerous about it and this is true >> it's not your imagination is what you're >> it's not your imagination is what you're >> it's not your imagination is what you're saying saying saying >> it's not your imagination so when Jesus >> it's not your imagination so when Jesus >> it's not your imagination so when Jesus or you read in you know the book of dut or you read in you know the book of dut or you read in you know the book of dut deuteronomy and other places where he deuteronomy and other places where he deuteronomy and other places where he says you don't practice necromancy don't says you don't practice necromancy don't says you don't practice necromancy don't do magic don't get in involved in you do magic don't get in involved in you do magic don't get in involved in you know tarot cards or all that kind of know tarot cards or all that kind of know tarot cards or all that kind of stuff what he's not saying is there's no stuff what he's not saying is there's no stuff what he's not saying is there's no power there. What he's saying is power there. What he's saying is power there. What he's saying is actually the reason it's a warning is actually the reason it's a warning is actually the reason it's a warning is there's a lot of there's a lot going on there's a lot of there's a lot going on there's a lot of there's a lot going on over there and it's but it's really over there and it's but it's really over there and it's but it's really dangerous and it's not of God. It's not dangerous and it's not of God. It's not dangerous and it's not of God. It's not of Jesus and it's dangerous and it will of Jesus and it's dangerous and it will of Jesus and it's dangerous and it will and the what's so dangerous about it is and the what's so dangerous about it is and the what's so dangerous about it is that it the people that encounter this that it the people that encounter this that it the people that encounter this generally speaking and people listen generally speaking and people listen generally speaking and people listen this is you know for as many people this is you know for as many people this is you know for as many people there are different experiences but when there are different experiences but when there are different experiences but when people step into those places and they people step into those places and they people step into those places and they have these encounters have these encounters have these encounters they have these this profound sense of they have these this profound sense of they have these this profound sense of enlightenment they feel special they enlightenment they feel special they enlightenment they feel special they feel seen they feel good they feel oh feel seen they feel good they feel oh feel seen they feel good they feel oh and it's just like it's like a taste and it's just like it's like a taste and it's just like it's like a taste they get it's like the crack dealer they get it's like the crack dealer they get it's like the crack dealer giving the taste on the playground and giving the taste on the playground and giving the taste on the playground and then the kid just gets deeper and deeper then the kid just gets deeper and deeper then the kid just gets deeper and deeper and they what they think is giving them and they what they think is giving them and they what they think is giving them life is really hollowing them out from life is really hollowing them out from life is really hollowing them out from the inside. And I think what's happening

the inside. And I think what's happening the inside. And I think what's happening in those experiences is the deeper you in those experiences is the deeper you in those experiences is the deeper you go go go and you you will one day wake up and and you you will one day wake up and and you you will one day wake up and discover that you have been dabbling in discover that you have been dabbling in discover that you have been dabbling in and in in a demonic realm that that and in in a demonic realm that that and in in a demonic realm that that promised you life but is act and insight promised you life but is act and insight promised you life but is act and insight and progression and enlightenment but it and progression and enlightenment but it and progression and enlightenment but it has really been hollowing you out from has really been hollowing you out from has really been hollowing you out from the inside. taking you away from the the inside. taking you away from the the inside. taking you away from the source of light, taking you away from source of light, taking you away from source of light, taking you away from the source of forgiveness of redemption the source of forgiveness of redemption the source of forgiveness of redemption that is only in Jesus and uh you know that is only in Jesus and uh you know that is only in Jesus and uh you know distorting the image in which you were distorting the image in which you were distorting the image in which you were created and I think it's a dangerous created and I think it's a dangerous created and I think it's a dangerous place and I would I that scares me for place and I would I that scares me for place and I would I that scares me for people that do that now where people people that do that now where people people that do that now where people especially those like I have a lot of especially those like I have a lot of especially those like I have a lot of compassion for people like I gain or compassion for people like I gain or compassion for people like I gain or people that are in PTSD and again if people that are in PTSD and again if people that are in PTSD and again if there's a medical shallow end of that there's a medical shallow end of that there's a medical shallow end of that pool that has some that's not you pool that has some that's not you pool that has some that's not you running through the, you know, running through the, you know, running through the, you know, the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I, you the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I, you the unseen realm. And so, I mean, I, you know, I don't know. But if there's, but know, I don't know. But if there's, but know, I don't know. But if there's, but people that do that recreation, they go, people that do that recreation, they go, people that do that recreation, they go, they're on the some spiritual safari to they're on the some spiritual safari to they're on the some spiritual safari to go into that place. I'm like, man, I go into that place. I'm like, man, I go into that place. I'm like, man, I just, I would, I would caution you just, I would, I would caution you just, I would, I would caution you against that. There, that's one place against that. There, that's one place against that. There, that's one place you don't need to go to know you don't you don't need to go to know you don't you don't need to go to know you don't want to be there. Amen. The Reverend want to be there. Amen. The Reverend want to be there. Amen. The Reverend Billy Cerviny. A phrase I never get Billy Cerviny. A phrase I never get Billy Cerviny. A phrase I never get tired of using. It's one that still tired of using. It's one that still tired of using. It's one that still feels ironic to me. God bless you. God feels ironic to me. God bless you. God feels ironic to me. God bless you. God bless you, man. I love you. Good to see bless you, man. I love you. Good to see bless you, man. I love you. Good to see you.